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In this episode of the Advanced Selling Podcast, Bill shares a mommy-daughter joke that s clean.
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I share a story that happened to me on the football field with a world-class NFL receiver where we compare our speeds.
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And we tackle a question that everyone always asks us, and that is, how do I go over my buyer s head?
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Welcome back to the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest running sales training podcast in podcast history.
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I m Brian Neal.
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I m Bill Kasky.
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We re here every week.
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Happy Monday to you.
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Hope you had a great week last week and you re having a wonderful week this week.
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We welcome all of our new listeners every week.
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Glad that you found us.
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And another ask.
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We asked this question.
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We got lots of people.
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We said, put up a video and tag us in the video.
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Share the episode.
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What did we ask?
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Share the episode or tell the?
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Did we ask both?
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What are you talking about?
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We asked people to share the episode and tag people several weeks ago, and several people have done that.
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Oh, OK.
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Which I m very thankful for.
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That s wonderful.
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So we re asking you to do it again.
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We had some other people do the videos.
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I was thinking of something separate.
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But thanks for saying, what are you talking about and leading me that way?
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That s great.
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Well, I thought you were talking about the Adam video that
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Oh, Adam, yeah.
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The group that we did.
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Yes.
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So can I tell that story real quick?
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Oh, please.
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Yeah, of course.
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I love it.
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Brian and I did a couple-hour training for a company who wanted us to come in.
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They would usually do a face-to-face meeting.
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But this year, of course, with all the weirdness, they did virtuals, like 30-some of them.
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And one of our recommendations was to start using video on LinkedIn.
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All their people were on LinkedIn.
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Some of them were doing some.
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Most were doing not much.
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And one of the guys who was doing most was a guy named Adam.
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Adam V. We ll call him Adam V. Keep his anonymity.
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And he released a video after that session just basically thanking us.
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I think he actually might have put it in the LinkedIn group.
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I think he did.
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I think he did.
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And he s had like thousands of views and comments and people.
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And now granted, it s not going to probably result in business for him.
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But just an example, if you get in the game, just get in the game.
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of doing videos, posting them on LinkedIn.
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I do some that I get 150, I get none, some I get 1,000, some more than that.
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But you just don t know until you try it.
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You have to do it.
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So the ask there for you as a listener is one, share the episode and tag salespeople that you know that don t listen that should listen.
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The second thing to do there is to shoot a little video
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and say hi to Bill and Brian.
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Tag us in there.
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We ll forward it on, share it, all that other jazz.
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We ve got some people from our insider group that are killing it on video right now, doing a great job.
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Angela from Chicago is doing a wonderful job on video.
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Our boy Don, as we talk about a lot, Don Kuntz, doing a wonderful job there, too.
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So just an encouragement to do that.
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We re just trying to grow the tribe here, and there s no better way to do that.
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We ve never, ever promoted the podcast.
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So all these years, it s been organic.
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It s been you finding us.
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interacting with us.
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We re very thankful.
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So anything you can do to help us grow the tribe, we d be grateful for.
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Well, if the truth were known, we had a 15-year plan.
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And we said, we re not going to start promoting until the 15th year.
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So here we are.
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Yeah, we re going to see how this goes.
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And we just wrote another 25-year plan.
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We wanted to get some momentum.
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I ll be 90.
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I love when people, you know.
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You ll be still officiating football.
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Yeah, crotchety old ref out there.
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God, these refs are old.
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Yep.
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Yeah, in my game yesterday, I had to run the ball really fast in the two-minute drill.
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So I m the only one that goes and runs, and I m dealing with the wide receivers.
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specifically one for one of these teams that s a very famous wide receiver, Oliver Remain and Amos.
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I was talking to him before this.
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I said, hey, man, just make sure you bring the ball into me.
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He said, you re going to run fast for us?
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And I said, I m going to run fast.
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I said, now, that s my version of fast, not your version of fast.
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True.
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He s like, you can win.
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I said, I m 50 and fat.
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So I ll do my best.
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Yeah, it ll be fast.
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They appreciated it.
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I think they appreciate that.
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Yeah, so you had a little one paragraph story.
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Oh, yeah.
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I thought it was interesting.
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Yeah about mindset Yeah, little child comes up to his mom and says mommy Imagine that you re surrounded by ten hungry tigers.
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What would you do?
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Mommy thinks thinks a little bit some kind of clever escape finally just says I don t know he says stop imagining and
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Oh, that s really good.
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Where did that come from?
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It comes out of nowhere, doesn t it?
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That s great.
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I like it.
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I like the whole mindset thing about playing the movies in your mind and what we imagine.
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Oh my god, what if I ask him this question?
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How s it going to feel if we go over his head, which is our topic today?
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Yeah, I had this this morning in the shower.
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I was thinking about a very, very bad thing.
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in my life, and I couldn t get rid of it.
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And we have this thing we use in football called Right Here Right Now that helps us.
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We had a sports psychologist help us.
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And when you lose your... Your brain fades on the football field, right here, right now.
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I had to use it this morning.
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I m like, that s gone.
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It s over.
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I can t... It s over.
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It s done.
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It s really hard.
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That s great.
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Because I was imagining it, and it was very real.
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And it s very very real.
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There s no there s no difference between what you imagine a reality Which also on the other side is the positive thing is if you can imagine the future then that is reality as well But yeah, I thought that was cute.
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That was it told by the same lady who told the joke She must love mommy a daughter jokes, but she said She told her daughter
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Honey, I ve got it.
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I ve got to come clean She had just lost a tooth and she was kind of waiting for the tooth fairy and mommy s mom says, you know, honey I ve got to come clean.
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She said there is no such thing as the tooth fairy and She said her daughter said, okay.
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Well, who is it?
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She goes it s me.
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I
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She said, I come into your room when you lose a tooth, and I put the money underneath the pillow and take the tooth, and that s me.
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That s just me.
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So she goes, oh, OK.
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She looks kind of bewildered.
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She goes in the other room, comes back an hour later and says, well, how do you get into the other kids  houses?
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That s fantastic.
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The kid brain.
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Uh-huh.
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All right, so we re going to take on a question.
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We did our little should I, which we re still inviting people to go to the Insider Group, do a hashtag should I, question mark.
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And you re asking us binary questions to me and Bill.
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And then we re going to vote yes or no with our high fancy pants branded paddles.
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Yes or no paddles.
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I ll bet next time Travis will have something a little more clever for us.
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I think so.
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Something tells me.
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So we re going to play that game again on the episode.
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But something came up in that questioning that we thought
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deserved its own episode.
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So today, the episode is, we re going to talk deeper about how to go over someone s head.
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Because the question comes up to us, should I go over their head?
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Even more often, it comes to us in a statement from a salesperson, from you listeners, that says, I don t think I should go over Bill s head.
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I don t really want to go over his head.
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I don t think that would be a good strategy to go over their head.
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It comes to us all the time, and I know it happens to you just like that.
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So we re going to talk about what to do and how to handle that.
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So when we were doing the pregame here, we usually pose the topic to each other.
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We take turns with the topics.
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And then we sit for five minutes and kind of come up with three or four things each that we think would be relevant to the listeners.
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And Brian posed the topic.
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I certainly would not have picked this one.
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Brian posed the topic.
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And I sat there for several minutes, stunned.
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Stunned?
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Meditative.
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And it felt to me like, I m not sure where to go with this.
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And then I thought, well, part of the problem is the way the question is framed.
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It s the go over, go around.
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It s a sneaky, what s my sneaky strategy to get around this person or go over their head?
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And I don t think that s the way to look at it.
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And I mentioned that to him, and he agreed.
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So I don t really have any
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Any tactics what I think we need to do is change the whole conversation about what it means to call on an organization That has people in it.
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Yes, and every organization you call on has people in it Now the question is who do you need to be talking to inside that organization?
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Why do you need to be talking to them?
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what s the argument you can make for why you need to talk to the CEO because if there s no good argument if it s just about you and
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Getting a better decision because you have a relationship, I don t think that s good enough.
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I think there has to be a deeper reason that you need to see the CEO, the VP of purchasing, VP of sales, whoever those people are.
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Yes.
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And I do, too.
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I agree.
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The question is the problem.
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The mindset that we have that pushes this question is the problem, which is that there s a decision maker.
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There s a decision maker.
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That is wrong.
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That doesn t exist anymore.
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There s a whole book called Selling to Veto, very important top officer.
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And we were taught forever, you were taught, I was taught forever, call in the decision maker.
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You hear sales managers, sales managers who listen to us, watch yourself.
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You ll say, I bet you said it this week already.
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Well, who s the decision maker?
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Yeah, that s wrong.
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It s a process.
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So you have to switch the word and the thinking out that it s a process and it s multiple people with multiple opinions, multiple levels of input.
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And until you flip the switch, you re always going to struggle with this problem.
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You ll always struggle with
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like going around people s heads and like, well, I m not talking to the decision maker or whatever.
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So.
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Yeah.
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So the question then is how, if you re in that place where you re talking to somebody who you know is not, you re, you re just talking to one spoke on the, on the wheel.
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How do you position yourself so that you can talk to other people?
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Yeah.
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This is massively important.
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Yeah.
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So like everything at the podcast here, the Advanced Selling Podcast, we always start in our mentality.
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And I think this is good to explore here.
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So let s pretend you re listening, and you have the situation.
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You sell software, and you re calling on a group, and you re dealing with a person.
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But you re talking to the director of marketing and procurement.
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You ve got two people in the mix.
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But you know it s going to get signed off by the VP of marketing, or the CMO, let s say.
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What do you do?
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First do to me is you got to get your mentality and your energy square.
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The two words I wrote down in prep were detachment and intention, which you hear Bill and I speak about a lot.
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And I said, what is my intention here?
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Is my intention to get a deal?
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Because if I go talk to the CMO with the intention to get a deal, I ll show up like a salesperson.
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If my intention is to understand the CMO s point of view or the CMO s perspective.
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Is this the person you re calling on first or is this the person you need to get to?
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CMO.
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You have to get to the CMO.
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OK.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So let s say I m calling on, I sell marketing software, and I m with a director of marketing and a procurement person.
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CMO is the final decision maker, as the person tells.
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So I really think you have to explore that, because most people don t do that.
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They jump to the tactics of, what do I say to the director to get me to the person?
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That s step four.
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That s not step one.
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Step one is you ve got to get clear inside.
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And we re videoing this, and I m making the, this is the inside.
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Oh, this is the inside?
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Saw Guru inside?
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I m making this.
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This is actually what we do when there s a reported eligible receiver.
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Oh, it is?
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It s an ineligible number, we say.
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When you hear that, you say, number 72 is reporting as an eligible, and you hear him announce it on TV.
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We do this thing.
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We point to him like that.
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So there s that.
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There s that useless bit of ball trivia.
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So here s a solution for us.
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I was just thinking about this.
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Let s imagine that you, and using this example of calling on the marketing director, needing to get to the CMO, maybe the COO, EO, FO, whomever else, UFO.
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The question is, do you have a process that demands input from all other people?
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So is your process one of including?
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Inclusion.
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It s written down right here.
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Inclusion.
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Including other people.
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Or is your process just about winging it and trying to get the person you re talking to to go sell it to somebody else who goes and sells to somebody else?
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So let s think about the process of assessing the situation.
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To me, that s the best place to bring others in, is when you say, Brian, I m glad that you invited me in.
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Let me tell you a little bit about our assessment process, or our survey, or our audit, or whatever you want to call it.
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And that s where you say to the marketing person,
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We re going to need to talk to this person, and this person, and this person, and maybe even some people that report to you so that we have the broadest and most comprehensive look at the problem.
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Love those words.
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And if you do that, now it s not about you getting around somebody.
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It s about you saying, look, this is how we do business.
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How can we possibly recommend a solution if we haven t done a proper job of understanding the perspectives of the people in this organization?
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Correct.
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That s what it is.
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To me, I agree with Bill.
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That s the prevention part, because it s got to be part of your process.
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And these words, you ve heard us on the podcast perhaps before, but the word perspective, and the word point of view, and the word input, and these words comprehensive and broad view are really, really critical to putting into your sales language up front to keep this whole getting stuck blocked from happening.
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Very, very critical.
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And most people don t have any language around that.
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They do mechanical process.
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Well, we ll do the demo.
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Then we ll give a proposal.
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Then we ll ask and negotiate.
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Then we ll ask for a decision.
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And then we ll beg to get in to see your CEO 9 10ths of the way through the sales process.
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Don t do that.
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We ve never set it up.
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No.
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Don t do that.
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No, no, no.
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We talk a lot in this.
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Well, this is the advanced selling podcast.
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This is not the rookie selling podcast.
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It s the advanced.
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So a lot of our listeners are up in the income arena.
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They re advanced people.
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They ve been at it.
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None of you had better be
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entering the process without some kind of an assessment.
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Again, I m not talking about a six-month, a million-dollar assessment.
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It could be on the back of a page, but it s got to be something that you have to inquire from other people around the organization.
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If you don t believe you need that information, you re never going to ask the question.
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You re never going to say, I got an assessment.
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You re going to say, well, how can we get to the guy?
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And what can we say?
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And can I provide you with any other ammunition?
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So you can take it to the board.
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But if you have an assessment that demands you talk to other people, it ll be a lot easier for you to say, if you don t want to do this, I can t play.
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Correct.
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That s it.
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Yep.
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Yeah, and even if you do, let s pretend you lay out the process, and they still give you the Heisman.
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It s football themed, isn t it?
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Heisman.
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Give you the Heisman.
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And you can t go there.
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You can go down that if you want, but you are massively exposed.
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And you need to discount that exposure in terms of the probability of that deal.
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And sales leaders listening to this, this is on you.
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You can t let someone who you know that s processed.
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If they ve tried, it s good.
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That s kudos that they tried to lay out the process like Bill and I are coaching.
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And if they still get stonewalled, you can pursue it.
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But that deal gets massively discounted in terms of probability, in my opinion.
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Yeah, I agree.
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Let s see.
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The other thing to think about here, when you re there already,
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is, so let s say you ve not taken our advice.
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A lot of you have, like, OK, now I m actually there.
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What are the words I use?
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It s a free podcast.
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Why would they take advice?
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Yeah, exactly right.
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What words would I use to help the person have this conversation?
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What are the words?
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I think we ve already mentioned them a bit.
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A little bit, the perspective and input.
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Yeah.
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How do you get into that, though?
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So let s say that.
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Let s say that you do have a procedure of some kind that is an assessment or it s a procedure of understanding.
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How do you get into that discussion?
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Yeah, I think a reflection.
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I like the word reflection, or looking back, or taking inventory.
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Those are good words to say.
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So before I m prepping this, now I m going to talk to you.
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And I say, you re the director of marketing.
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And I ve got you.
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And I m talking to the procurement person.
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And the CMO I know is going to do final sign-off.
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And I say to you, Bill, this is also contextualizing this to say,
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Hey, I ve been sort of taking inventory of our process so far of where we are.
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And there s a piece that I, on my side, I feel like we re missing perspective wise, and it s on me, not on you.
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And so I m going to propose that you and I and Susan, Susan s a CMO, dialogue live face to face as a next step.
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I just feel like,
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the pressure to put on you and the procurement person to go and translate is more inefficient than it needs to be.
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And so I was going to reach out to her direct, and I can do that and invite you.
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something like that, fall off.
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So you re not really asking for permission.
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You re saying, here s, in a very nice way, here s what we need to do.
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Yeah, with good intention.
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You still might get pushed.
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This is not magic language.
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People always think like, oh, shoot, that s magic language.
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It s not.
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Well, look at Travis when somebody curves it up.
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Can you take that out?
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Can you beep that?
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Got another explicit rating on our podcast.
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It s going to add an hour to the editing process.
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You just said something there.
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So that is an example of when you re in it.
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So there s also the example of when you re just starting it.
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If your first call, you ve reached out to somebody on LinkedIn, you have a meeting, they express some interest, they express some pain, got some problems.
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And at some point during that first initial conversation, you need to say, look, I ve got a process for this.
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Let me share with you how we typically do these things.
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We used to do them a certain way, where we would just come in and propose.
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And the problem is that we weren t helping you, so we decided to do assessment.
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It helps you.
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You get a document.
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I ve got a client right now who is doing assessments for large institutions.
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And he came up with a two- or three-page assessment.
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And he came up with what the offer is, what you get, what you don t get, what the process is like.
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Very clear.
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He understands it.
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And he goes out now.
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And that s all he does is do assessments.
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And they re free.
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And they only take a couple hours.
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But you learn a lot.
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It s almost like a pain-finding expedition.
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It s wonderful.
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Finding what the problems are.
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And I think it s valuable.
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This is where you have to hang your hat here.
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The process has to be valuable to them.
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I think as an outsider, whether you re a salesperson, a consultant, or a coach like me and Bill, doesn t matter.
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An individual s ability to bring people together that work together that don t normally talk in the way that we re going to ask them to talk is massively valuable.
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Does that make sense?
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To them.
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Yeah.
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Because maybe it s rare that the director of marketing, the CMO, and this procurement person talk about this thing that your software does.
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Like, wow, together.
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That s really valuable.
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And you ve got to believe the value in that.
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for the energy to come through.
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If you don t believe the value, if it s a sales tactic, it ll fall flat.
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Hey, if you have not yet joined our LinkedIn group, go to advancedsellingpodcast.com slash LinkedIn.
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We are almost 12,000 people on the group.
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We post episodes and post questions.
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And if you do have a question that would require only a yes, no answer, we re pretty simple.
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We re simpletons here.
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We can only answer the question yes, no.
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So pose a yes, no question.
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Hashtag should I?
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Yes, should I?
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And we will answer it on the upcoming episode.
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We re going to be doing a lot more of that this quarter.
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If you are not already a member of our LinkedIn group, you can go to advancedsellingpodcast.com slash LinkedIn.
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Almost 12,000 fine people.
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Beautiful people.
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Yeah.
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Fine people.
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Beautiful.
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It s a beautiful people.
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It is.
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Find people on both sides.
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It s a beautiful group.
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It s the greatest group.
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The best group.
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So go there.
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Sorry.
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Go there.
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That s it.
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All right.
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Bye.
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Bye.