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This is The Art of Charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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The Art of Charm is where ordinary guys become extraordinary men.
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Welcome guys and gals to The Art of Charm.
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I m Jordan Harbinger.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and personalities to teach you how to crush it in life, love, and at work.
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Imagine having a mix of experienced mentors teaching you their expertise and packing decades of research, testing, and tough lessons into a curriculum.
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We ve created one of the premier lifestyle shows available anywhere that brings you tools previously only available to elite high-level performers.
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We don t have all the answers, but we do have all the questions.
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Make sure to stay up to date with the Art of Charm and get some great free content that we don t or can t share on the show by signing up for the newsletter at theartofcharm.com.
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If you like what you hear on the show, come hang out with us on the blog where we really get in-depth on some of these topics and you can further engage with the AOC team there as well.
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Or if you re new to the show and you want to find out more about what we teach here at The Art of Charm, you can go to the website.
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We ll email you our Fundamentals Toolkit and that covers topics like body language and nonverbal communication, dating and attraction, persuasion, business networking, negotiation, relationship management, public speaking, and a whole lot more.
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and we ve got our live programs running every single week here in Los Angeles, California.
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In fact, we ve got guys from all over the world, which shows that no matter where you are, you can make it here if you want to learn and grow.
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We re sold out several months in advance, so if you re even thinking about it a little bit, you should get in touch ASAP by phone or just email me, jordanattheartofcharm.com.
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Get some info from us now so you can plan ahead.
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Looking forward to meeting you here at AOC.
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Before I forget, I also want to encourage you to join us in the first Social Capital Challenge.
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Go to theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text CHARMED to 33444 and we ll have you text us your email instead, no spam, and works a lot better when you re not in front of your computer.
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This challenge is about improving your social capital and inspiring more people to develop a personal and professional relationship with you.
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During the first four weeks, we re giving away something special as well, so keep your eyes open for details.
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You will not want to miss out on what we re giving away either.
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This challenge will get progressively more difficult, so if you think it s easy at first, great, and this will make you a better networker and a better connector.
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Oh, and the last thing, if you want to have accountability, please invite your friends to join the challenge as well at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or have them text charmed to 33444 so they can join the challenge too.
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Today we re talking with one of my good friends, Michael Port.
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We re gonna talk about why the best performers are the most authentic and honest, and he s written a whole book to that effect called Steal the Show, which is awesome, even if I do say so myself, because I wrote a little blurb for the inside cover, which may or may not make it to publishing.
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We re gonna talk about separating validation from your desire to get results, and of course, a lot more about presenting, persuading, and being generally more charismatic when you re trying to communicate your message.
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So enjoy this one with Michael Port.
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Michael, tell us what you do in one sentence.
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I can help you be a better public speaker or performer in life s high-stakes situations.
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That s 100% guaranteed.
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Awesome.
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What happened was I took Michael Port s graduate program speaking class, which was amazing, and we ll touch on some of that stuff on the show, but one of the drills we did was
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speaking to a hostile audience.
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So basically, I mean, you know what you had them do.
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All I know is my experience was nobody said anything, and then people started getting up and leaving.
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Now I have to give you a really hard time because of that.
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Shit.
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Yeah.
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So now we have to shred you, man.
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I m sorry.
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Is it just because I made them haze you?
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That s right.
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That s right.
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It s all about that.
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Is that what s going on?
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That s what s going on here.
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Yeah.
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Well, so we sent you out of the room, and then I gave direction to the other students.
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the direction that we gave to the students was different for each speaker, because each speaker has certain strengths.
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And you are quick, you re funny, and you re used to people laughing at your jokes.
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So what I told them is I said, don t give him anything, no response whatsoever.
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And then, very slowly, one at a time, without saying anything, just get up and leave.
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And your face was
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a sight to behold.
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I was unhappy.
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You were so unhappy.
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You were getting redder and redder.
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And you would try to engage the audience to get them back on your side.
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But what would happen is you d get mad.
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Right.
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And then you d kind of make little snide remarks, which made it worse.
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Made it way worse, yeah.
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Oh my God.
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And of course, the irony is that they were your friends.
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So you knew it was all staged.
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All of it.
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And it still was so difficult.
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It was.
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I honestly, I had trouble sitting there.
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I felt so bad that I had put you in this situation and the others, you know, that did it as well.
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But, you know, I was surprised that many of you guys said, and tell me if it was the same for you, that it was one of the worst and best
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things you could do in your training as a performers a speaker because you ll never get anything that bad in your life again no i mean frankly i d look at it now is in the moment it was awful cuz i just everything went wrong to the point where i didn t know what to do the other thing those i thought about it realistically sort of detached after a few weeks or whatever a few days i think what i would end up really doing in that situation is obviously i d use the audience control stuff we studied in class
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I would, at a certain point, with everybody leaving, I would probably say to the organizer who would be in the room, like, okay, do we need to reschedule my session?
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Is there something we need to do to handle this?
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Because at some point, somebody who has the ultimate authority, like the event organizer, has to say,
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What the hell is everyone doing?
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This is ridiculous.
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This is totally disrespectful.
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So unless you re set up for that, there s no chance that it would ever happen.
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I mean, you would have to be in a room.
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It would be like, well, I feel like we re going to this thing in July.
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Glenn Beck is going to be there.
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And a lot of people are like, we re going to make it difficult for him.
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The only people who would get an audience like that, and even then would be somebody like Glenn Beck, but that s still so rude.
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It s kind of unfathomable that the whole group would join into something like that unless it was orchestrated that way.
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Yeah, I imagine politicians get that too.
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And they re used to it as part for the course, but for the average presenter, they re never going to get something like that.
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They re not going to have to deal with that.
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It s interesting though, you, you know, you five minutes afterwards, you were reflecting on it or a few days afterwards, like, Oh, I should have done this.
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Oh, and I would have said this.
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It s what we often do after we have conversations very often when we get off stage or we get out of any high stakes situation or a performance situation, whether it s a job interview or
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you know, asking for a promotion or even a first date, we think about what we wished we had said.
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Well, yeah, of course.
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We play it back in our minds, we go, oh, man.
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And I think one of the reasons that happens is because we re often not in the moment during the actual situation.
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Well, that s for sure true.
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And there s a lot of reasons, I guess, that people probably aren t in the moment.
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But I think speakers always think that they are because they re like, oh, I know this topic really well.
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But that actually might make it worse.
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Well, one of the things that we do with our students, and you had this experience, so you can speak to it, I imagine, is we play a game called Story Story.
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And we will put people in a little group or in a row if there s an audience, and we ll give them a theme and the first line.
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And one person will start telling a story.
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And then the narrator, who s usually me or one of the other teachers, will say switch.
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And then the next person will pick up the story and keep going.
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And then they ll go for a little while, and then we ll say switch, and it ll move again.
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And what happens is most people spend their downtime thinking about what they re going to do next or what they re going to say next.
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But by the time the story actually gets to them, the story s completely changed.
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And so they are flummoxed.
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They get stuck.
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They don t know what to do.
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But the performer, and again, to me, most all people can be performers, and you don t have to be an entertainer to be a performer.
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But most people who want to perform well in high-stakes situations, if they work on being in the moment and not anticipating what s coming next, then they re often more in tune with what s happening and can respond
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accordingly and much more effectively.
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You look at a lot of this stuff as performance and not only the speaking angle, but deal closing pitches, speeches, and even interviews and things like that.
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And how come you look at all this as a performance?
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It almost seems inauthentic in a way to look at all of those things as performance.
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Because Shakespeare said it, he said, all the world s a stage.
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If you think about it, we re performing all the time.
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We are amplifying certain parts of our personality, and we re downplaying certain parts of our personality in different situations.
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And hopefully we re doing it authentically.
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And I think that the concern people have around the idea of performance is that they think it means they re faking it, or pretending, or they re lying in some way.
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But the best performers in the world
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are often the most authentic performers in the world.
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So if you re a fan of Meryl Streep or Tom Hanks or, you know, any of the actors that are won a lot of awards, often they re the most honest actors.
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And the reason you respond so well to them is because of that authenticity.
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And when they are feeling emotions, they re actually feeling them.
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They re not pretending.
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Now, of course,
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They re putting themselves in a situation that is manufactured.
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They wouldn t actually be stranded on an island talking to a soccer ball.
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But what he s feeling is real for him, and that s why we resonate with him.
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So performance at its core is not fake, necessarily.
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And I think that that s really, really important to remember and I think can be helpful if we want to stand up in front of people, if we want to,
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move forward professionally, if we want to be more popular, etc.
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We need to adapt our styles of behavior.
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I see you as being very good at this.
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I think that a lot of very successful people are good at adopting different styles of behavior so that they can fit in well in different circles, in different situations with different people.
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Now,
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The important thing is they don t put aside their values.
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They don t pretend they re somebody else.
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They don t agree with things that they wouldn t necessarily agree with, but they re able to smoothly and seamlessly fit in with a group that might not be the group that they normally surround themselves with.
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That makes sense, right?
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It s an adaptability thing instead of purely acting like something else in order to fit in.
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Yeah, and I also think that, you know, I think there s something beneficial about being chameleon-like.
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Now, usually when someone s called a chameleon, it s an insult.
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Is it?
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I don t think I ve ever heard anybody call anybody that, ever, for any reason.
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Oh, really?
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Well, you know, it s like a shape-shifter.
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Like, oh, you re just a chameleon, you know?
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I actually think that s a kind of cool thing to be called, because a chameleon is completely authentic.
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When a chameleon s on a green leaf, it turns green.
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When it s on a red leaf, it turns red.
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You re just showing different colors, different parts of your personality.
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in those different situations so if i m hanging out with a bunch of guys down the marina and their rougher crew my language is gonna change a little bit it s gonna be a little more staccato my physicality is gonna change a little bit but it s still.
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Me it s still part of me but if i m hanging out with a bunch of intellectuals.
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at my publishing company or just happen to be talking to a group of librarians or professors, my body language is going to change and my pacing and my tone is going to change a little bit, but it s still part of who I am, and I think that s important to remember.
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Yeah, I can see this right now because I had a lot of experience with you, especially in the past few months.
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I can see you just you cross your legs, you put the glasses on, you put your hands in your lap.
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That s the intellectual mode.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And then, you know, when you and I are just, you know.
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chatting up in the hotel somewhere and we re joking around and my language might get a little more off color and physicality changes a little bit, but I think most of us do this.
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I won t say all of us.
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You know my thing about not using absolutes.
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I think when you use absolutes, you re lying because all generalities are false, including that one.
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See what you did there.
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You see what I did there?
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It s not somebody else, it s still you.
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It s just you re highlighting, or you re turning up the volume.
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It s like an equalizer in music.
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You re turning up the bass, but it s still the music.
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And I say that most people do this, not all people do this, because many folks are very true to self.
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And I think it can be dangerous to be so true to self that you can t see yourself changing in any way.
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You can t see yourself adapting in any way.
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And sometimes the folks that hold on so strongly to who they think they are, have trouble moving forward because they don t know the right role to play in any situation.
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So for example, let s say, so you re, you re again, I m going to use you as an example of this.
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If you don t mind, you re, you re a teacher, you re a leader, you re popular, you re well known.
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You ve got this huge podcast, which I actually listened to regularly and,
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And so you have a very high status in the industry.
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And when you were doing this work with me and training with me, you were with a whole group of people that didn t have that same kind of professional status.
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Yet you just blended in really easily.
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You didn t hold on to some idea of who you are, that you never showed any kind of ego, status, nothing.
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You never played that card at all.
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And I was really impressed with it throughout.
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So you were obviously very comfortable with lots of different kinds of people and lots of different situations, and you never needed to hold on to some idea of yourself to feel comfortable being yourself.
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You know, right there you just stroked my ego by telling me how modest I was.
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That is a huge win.
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Right, there we go because... Amazing.
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Amazing, right?
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Touche.
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No, but I appreciate that because a few years ago I will say...
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I would have been very uncomfortable with being in that room, not because I was view myself, oh, this business is so much better than these other people s businesses.
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I would have been uneasy about that fact and probably not known how to handle it.
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And that would have been embarrassing.
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But it s sort of ironic because I see that happen all the time, especially if you hang out with a lot of internet types.
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There s a lot of you-know-what measuring, and it s embarrassing because a lot of it comes from ego, but a lot of it comes from not knowing how to handle yourself in a room full of other influencers and wanting validation and approval.
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It is awkward, but it is a learned skill.
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I think what you re teaching, what you taught us in the speaking course was
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to perform not only on stage, but also to act like you ve been there in terms of the speaking circuit and a lot of the business side of it, which I thought was really useful.
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Yeah, so let s touch on this need for approval.
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So often, I mean, you hear it, you hear it said over and over that speaking is the number one fear and death is the number two fear, right?
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And I m not sure it s actually true.
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I think it s
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to your point before, I think it s one of those made up statistics.
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I ve never actually seen a study that says people are more afraid of public speaking than dying.
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But nonetheless, I still recognize that many, many folks are very anxious before they have to get up in front of people.
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And it makes sense.
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And one of the reasons is because we re afraid of being rejected.
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And if we re afraid of being rejected, it s in large part because we have a strong need for approval.
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And the need for approval,
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is problematic for a number of reasons, but this is the performer s paradox.
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So on one hand, you want to do these big things.
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You want to go out in the world and you want to nail it.
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You want to steal the show.
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On the other hand, you ve got this other intention that says, don t screw up.
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Don t mess this up.
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Don t do anything that you could get criticized for or look foolish for.
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But those two intentions just completely cancel each other out.
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If you want to do big things, but you don t want to look foolish,
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you re gonna have a hard time, because you re gonna look foolish from time to time, because you re gonna take big risks to do big things.
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So this is the performer s paradox.
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And this desire you have, the more that you wanna go out and do big things, if that need for approval is also there, then you re gonna focus on approval rather than results.
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And so the question I often ask my students is, which is more important to you, results or approval?
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Results or approval?
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And people will usually say, well, results, of course.
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But if they sit down and think about it,
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Often I think approval is the thing we re going for.
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If I look at myself as a younger man, there s no doubt a lot of my time was focused on getting approval.
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I mean, look, I was a professional actor.
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There aren t many people who become actors who don t want approval.
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I think there s something to be said for wanting approval, you know, becoming an actor because you want approval.
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But over the years, I just got tired of working for approval.
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I just said, let me just focus on results.
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Let me just go out there and see if I can produce the kind of results
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that will make me happy, my family happy, and serve the people that I set out to serve.
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Keep it simple.
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That s interesting.
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How do we get over that if we find that we re lying to ourselves and we go, well, yeah, results, for sure.
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It s always gotta be results.
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And then we find, well, wait, my actions aren t really in line with that.
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That ll damage your business and it ll damage your ability to be a thought leader if that s what you re into.
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Or even to just start your own company or something like that or branch off on your own if you re just obsessed with approval.
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But it s easy to say,
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Okay, well, I got to stop worrying about people s approval.
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But it s another thing to undo a lifetime, potentially of programming that says, Sure, please like me.
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Sure.
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Well, I m not a therapist.
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Your parents are, but my parents are, but I do play one on the internet.
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No, look, it s different for each person.
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But at some point, our desire has to be stronger than our fear.
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And if our fear is stronger than our desire, I think we re just going to stay in that place.
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We re going to just stay where we are.
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A colleague of mine was getting ready, preparing for an interview on a TV show around a book.
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And she asked me, she said, Michael, what do I do?
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I really want to be good on this TV show.
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And I said, well, you can t be.
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And her face turned white.
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I said, no, no, I don t mean that.
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You re not going to be good, but you can t try to be good.
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The best thing you can do, really the only thing you can do, is be helpful.
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That s it.
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And if you focus on that, then you re less focused on yourself.
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So what happens is, if you re focused on yourself, meaning I don t want anybody to think I m stupid, I don t want to mess up, I want to make sure I look good, they think I look good, you know, those kind of things, you start to become self-absorbed.
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And the more self-absorbed you are, the harder it is to focus on your objective, and that s the result.
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one of the principles of performance is getting really, really clear on your objectives.
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And this is what the actor does.
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This is what the performer does.
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I know who you are based on what you do.
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That s how I know who you are.
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You can say anything you want, but what you do really tells the world everything about you.
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Over the last 17 years, we have launched our fair share of online courses, coaching programs, and finding the right platform has always been a challenge.
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They say if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life.
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2
SPEAKER_02
Now, back to Michael Port.
2
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Right, it s kind of like the cliche, actions speak louder than words, except for it s this in practice, right?
2
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We know from observation.
2
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Exactly right.
2
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So the way that an actor develops a character is in part by getting really clear on the objectives that character has.
2
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And then what they do as a performer is try to find every single tactic they possibly can in order to achieve that objective.
2
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And so they usually are met with obstacle after obstacle after obstacle after obstacle.
2
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And if the writing is good, the conflict will be very high and the, you know, the player, the film will be exciting to watch.
2
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And that s often how life works.
2
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We choose an objective and then we re met with obstacle after obstacle after obstacle, problem after problem after problem.
2
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And our job is to go about overcoming those obstacles to get to where we want to go.
2
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And that s why I think this,
2
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this idea of acting can be used as a model for success in high-stakes situations.
2
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Because when I got divorced, for example, in 2008, it was a little bit tense between my ex-wife and I at that time, and I found myself getting caught up in the emotional issues.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I get mad if she said something that I thought, you know, wasn t true or I felt insulted about something she said, or I just got so frustrated because I didn t like the way she was dealing with something.
2
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And somebody said to me, Michael, you just focus on the goal and then throw everything else out.
2
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Don t care about anything except what you re trying to achieve.
2
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I said, all right, I ll try it.
2
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And it worked because then if she said something that wasn t true or, you know, offended me,
2
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I d ask myself, well, if I respond to this, does this help me get to my goal?
2
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Or does it just make the situation worse and take me farther from my goal?
2
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And obviously the answer is rhetorical.
2
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So it really made it much easier.
2
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And I got less emotionally involved in those conversations.
2
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And then ultimately, you know, we were able to connect in a much more effective way.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so someone also once said to me, he said, yeah, but if you re doing that, when that s manipulative, you know, you re just trying to go after what you want.
2
SPEAKER_03
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
What s wrong with that?
2
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Do you know?
2
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Meaning, I m not lying, I m not manipulating anybody, I m just getting out of the way of all the bullshit that gets in the way of achieving the objective.
2
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Simple as that.
2
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If you let somebody else get an emotional rise out of you and you end up going further away from your goals because you re getting distracted by that, you are being manipulated by them.
2
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So if you ignore that, if people say that s manipulative, then you have to choose between those two things in theory.
2
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I would much rather have one than the other.
2
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It seems like a false choice to me.
2
SPEAKER_03
It has to be.
2
SPEAKER_03
It seems like that.
2
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I don t really know how refusing to be emotionally reactive to a situation would be manipulative.
2
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It s more resistant to manipulation itself.
2
SPEAKER_03
And now we re getting pretty meta, but I think that s an important thing because I think a lot of folks, when they re dealing with really important issues where the stakes are high, such as their relationships, their businesses, their
2
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the way they interact with their kids, things like that, you have to really focus on one thing or you end up in that situation where you end up with that false choice.
2
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And kids are really good at this.
2
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Like, you don t love me if you don t buy me this.
2
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This is a pretty amateur example, but they get better at it as they get older, as you probably noticed.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and then the parents get really good at performing because, you know, what you re thinking is, I m gonna kill this kid, I m gonna kill, and you re, you know, what you re saying is,
2
SPEAKER_01
It s okay, honey.
2
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We ll just a few more minutes and then we ll go. 
2
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And you re thinking, I m gonna kill this kid, you know?
2
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Like, why can t I lock him in the trunk?
2
SPEAKER_01
That s illegal, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s illegal.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, actually, I told my son once, I got mad at him.
2
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I said, Jake, I m gonna give you a spanking.
2
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He goes, no, you re not.
2
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That s illegal.
2
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And he walked upstairs.
2
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I m like, oh!
2
SPEAKER_00
Ah, who told you that?
2
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I m like, oh my God, Jake, 30 years ago, you would ve, you know?
2
SPEAKER_01
He s like, well, it s not 30 years ago.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m like, oh no, he s killing me and he s 10 years old.
2
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I can t keep up.
2
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He s gonna be an attorney.
2
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Yeah, exactly right.
2
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No doubt.
2
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Look, here s the thing.
2
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We do, we really do have the ability to create our reality and express that reality in many ways.
2
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Now, I don t mean that from a do affirmations or
2
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Write poetry, neither of which I do, both of which are perfectly fine things to do.
2
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But I mean based on the choices we make.
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So we make choices about what we want to achieve every day.
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And those choices, they form a narrative that tells the story of our life.
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So we also have choices about how we express ourselves to meet those aspirations.
2
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And this is why I took this, again, this acting as a model
2
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and I applied it to the everyday situations that we re in because that s what you re doing.
2
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You are creating a character that is you.
2
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Now think about it.
2
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Each one of us each day is developing our own character and we are deciding how we want the world to see us.
2
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To me, that s performance, because in your professional life, you ve got speeches, interviews, pitching a client, maybe leading a meeting.
2
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And in your personal life, you ve got toasts, eulogies, graduation remarks, talks, first dates, et cetera.
2
SPEAKER_01
And how you decide to create the dynamic between you and those other people, how you decide to create your character as it relates to the way people see you, this is all performance.
2
SPEAKER_03
I guess that s true and of course realizing that is empowering because otherwise you re sort of under this weird impression that you re just being yourself or that you re not being yourself.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so this is really interesting, Jordan.
2
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Really interesting.
2
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This idea, well that s not really me, people say that.
2
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I couldn t really do that, that s not me.
2
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To me that s a very constrained way of thinking.
2
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I think this is one of the things that drew me to acting in the first place, but there were no limitations.
2
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You could play all these different characters, all these different people.
2
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You could live in all these different worlds, and you could do it without actually being insane.
2
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And I thought, well, that s kind of cool.
2
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Let me try that.
2
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And I loved it.
2
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And what s so interesting to me about people is the individualism that each person can express.
2
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And so the question is,
2
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Do we see ourselves as somebody who is limited and constrained in that we are only capable of what
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we ve done before, or, you know, I m not that kind of person, or I m not a funny person, or, you know, those kind of things, these kind of, these blanket statements that we make about ourselves, or could we see ourselves playing lots of different roles and getting bigger and much more interesting over time?
3
SPEAKER_01
Ah, see, yeah, you re right.
3
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You don t have to, but it seems like a lot of people make the choice, well, I can t evolve past this point, even though you are anyway, it s just not deliberate.
3
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
3
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I also love that you just said,
3
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Well, you don t have to, because one of the things that I m really keen on is staying away from absolutes.
3
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And I think this is very important when you re giving a speech, because you can lose an audience very quickly if you use absolutes.
3
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If you say, well, everybody thinks this, or everybody does this, or it s always like this.
3
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Because as I said before, that s just not true.
3
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If I said, you know, Jordan, listen, nobody likes earwax-flavored ice cream.
3
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You could say, actually, I know this kid in, when I went to grammar school, he used to pick his ears and eat it.
3
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I bet you he d still like earwax-flavored ice cream.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, there I go, my argument was out the window.
3
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Now, obviously it s a ridiculous argument,
3
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But the point is, is that when you use an absolute, when you re giving a speech or in other situations as well, if you use absolutes when you go in for a job interview, you might make that person who s interviewing you a little bit concerned that you have very broad and blanketed views
3
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based on this need to use absolutes.
3
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And one of the things that s an absolute is you have to do this, just like you caught yourself.
3
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You don t have to do it.
3
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So speakers will often say, listen, here s what you have to do if you want to do X, Y, and Z. And I often sit in the audience and think, I don t really have to do that.
3
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I could do that.
3
SPEAKER_00
So what we want to try is to adjust our language, because language, the use of language is so important.
3
SPEAKER_00
So we say, it seems like many people do this.
3
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Often, here s what we find.
3
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you could consider doing this.
3
SPEAKER_00
You might want to do this.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then what it does is instead of creating holes in your argument, you actually leave room for the other person s views and you can have a much more solid connection as a result.
3
SPEAKER_00
So one of the things we do anytime we are creating any kind of pitch presentation,
3
SPEAKER_00
um, you know, negotiation, et cetera, as we try to close the holes in our argument, we want to make sure that we re making an argument that, that people can t, you know, drive Mac trucks through, they go mad.
3
SPEAKER_00
Doesn t make sense.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, you know, when, uh, if someone s throwing out, like we were chatting earlier, someone throws out some statistics that,
3
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are just patently false, and people go, well, that doesn t make sense.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s not true.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s been debunked.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, then their whole argument, the rest of the things they ve said, even if they were valid, starts to fall apart because of that big hole.
3
SPEAKER_00
So when we are working on our presentations or any kind of quote-unquote argument that we re making, we want to do our best to eliminate holes.
3
SPEAKER_00
But using absolutes
3
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you may think would actually close those holes, actually makes more holes, because they re patently false.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, so you end up with the people going, hmm, what can I think of that would actually be antagonistic to that argument?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes, and here s what s interesting, Jordan.
3
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When you re giving a speech and you re asking people to change the way they see themselves, or you re asking them to change the way they see the world,
3
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It can be confronting.
3
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And maybe they don t know you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe this is the first time they ve experienced you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s a lot to ask of somebody in a very short period of time.
3
SPEAKER_00
So even the most open and lovely people who really wanna get on board, even those people, if what you re asking them to think or feel or do is confrontational to them, confronting to them, they may try to find a way out.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if there are holes in your argument, or if you use the absolutes, it s an easier way to get out of adopting your idea, your worldview, or what you re asking them to do.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, because they start focusing on these little flaws in order to go, well, I m going to throw the baby out with the bathwater, because you re asking me to accept something that I don t want to hear, or that s a really tough pill to swallow.
3
SPEAKER_01
But let me focus on this thing you said 20 minutes ago, and just go, well, you don t know what you re talking about.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly right.
3
SPEAKER_01
How many books have you written so far?
3
SPEAKER_00
I think this is my sixth.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
If I say I m going to write a seventh, just punch me in the face.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
I remember during the class, you were like, hey, pro tip, stop writing books.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you can t, you re stuck.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like this is part of what you do now, apparently.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is part of what I do.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, for me, it s just looking at the amount of content that we have at art of charm, I can understand writing a book or two, but six is an enormous amount.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s funny, because I m looking at your book, I only know you as shaved head Michael port, I m looking at you like early edition, booked yourself solid.
3
SPEAKER_01
And there you are with a bunch of hair.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know.
3
SPEAKER_00
Who is that?
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, that happens.
3
SPEAKER_00
I have to.
3
SPEAKER_00
It just happens.
3
SPEAKER_00
It starts to go.
3
SPEAKER_01
I applaud your decision to just take it and shave it instead of being like pulling the comb over.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like George Costanza.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Man, I saw a picture of myself from behind and there was a big
3
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ball spot and I m like, that s it.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s gone.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s gone.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I have to smile a lot because if I don t, then I look like a serial killer.
3
SPEAKER_00
So right.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just smile a lot.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then you know, people don t run away from me when they see me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
You could look like a little like a scary.
3
SPEAKER_01
I serial killer.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or like some sort of crazy special forces guy who s just like seen too much.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I like that, that s a better character.
3
SPEAKER_00
I like that one.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s slightly more stable, probably not gonna shoot people in a public setting or cut anything into pieces.
3
SPEAKER_01
Lex Luthor type character maybe?
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe, maybe.
3
SPEAKER_01
Jewish Lex Luthor.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, the Jewish Lex Luthor?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, right, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Tell us about the new book, and what could possibly be new?
3
SPEAKER_01
But tell us about Steal the Show.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so I didn t want to write a book just about public speaking, although I do believe
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think anybody that s writing books should believe that what they ve produced is the best thing in that particular category.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I really do believe that if you want to learn public speaking, Steeler Show is the best book you can read.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s not just about public speaking because
3
SPEAKER_00
People from all walks of life need help in everyday performance situations.
3
SPEAKER_00
So asking for a raise, nailing an interview, closing a deal, leading a team meeting, all of these things that we ve touched on, these are everyday situations that are performances.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I broke the book up into three parts.
3
SPEAKER_00
And part one is all about the performer s mindset.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s about finding your voice, playing the right role in every situation, crushing your fears and silencing your critics.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then part two is all about performance principles.
3
SPEAKER_00
So having a clear objective, acting as if, which is a very powerful creative process, raising the stakes so that your life is much more interesting and you re going after much bigger goals, saying yes and so you re not the devil s advocate because I ll tell you what, I will never hire someone who walks around saying they re the devil s advocate.
3
SPEAKER_00
I want people who says yes and what about this?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes and what about this?
3
SPEAKER_00
So we re always building
3
SPEAKER_00
on what we are working on together, being in the moment.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because again, if we are living in the past, then our future is not so bright.
3
SPEAKER_00
If we are living in the future, we are not actually enjoying the present.
3
SPEAKER_00
So we want to be in that moment.
3
SPEAKER_00
And this is not, I m not writing about this from a personal development perspective.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m writing about it from a performance perspective so that you can excel in these performance situations by staying in the moment.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then
3
SPEAKER_00
Choosing early and often is another essential performance principle because in business, you choose early, you choose often, you pilot, you see if it works.
3
SPEAKER_00
If it doesn t, you throw it out and you start again.
3
SPEAKER_00
But those of us that wait long periods of time and don t make choices, we don t get a lot done.
3
SPEAKER_00
So one of the strongest tools in the performance toolkit
3
SPEAKER_00
is making choices and the performers that make choices get hired over and over and over.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then part three is a master class in public speaking.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it really is a tour de force.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s a walkthrough of how to craft pitches, speeches and stories.
3
SPEAKER_00
how to create and tell stories that make people laugh or even cry, how to rehearse and stage performances, how to produce powerful openings, closings, and audience interaction, how to improve the way you improvise so that you can make your way into the hearts and the minds of really the toughest crowds out there, and you ve experienced some of them, and then how to get a standing ovation every single time.
3
SPEAKER_01
All right, back to Michael Port.
3
SPEAKER_01
Why do I need this?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, just to play Jordan Harbinger on my own show.
3
SPEAKER_01
Do I need this book if I m not going to be a public speaker?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes, you do.
3
SPEAKER_00
Again, that s the thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
You could skip everything in part three about public speaking and you d still get your money worth.
3
SPEAKER_00
I always promise everybody that if anybody ever buys a book
3
SPEAKER_00
that I ve written and they don t like it, I ll buy them another book of their choice.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just send me an email, tell me what book, I ll go to Amazon, you send me your address and I ll send you the book because I believe that you should only spend time working with the materials that really help you.
3
SPEAKER_00
But yes, again, many people, in fact I think
4
SPEAKER_00
most people who read this book won t be public speakers.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I m not writing for the professional purpose speaker, and I m certainly not writing for the actor.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m writing for the everyday person that every once in a while will find that the spotlight is on them, and they want to excel during that time.
4
SPEAKER_00
They want to steal the show, even though they don t necessarily see themselves as entertainers.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think there s something to that because obviously I ve been doing a ton of speaking, especially since the course, and I ve gotten a ton of paid gigs, which is great.
4
SPEAKER_01
But also I ve gotten invited to be part of different panels.
4
SPEAKER_01
I decided I was going to check out some improv stuff, which I previously was kind of nervous about doing.
4
SPEAKER_01
So being able to take something that s not really my strong suit and attack a weakness at a very difficult,
4
SPEAKER_01
thing to do for most people and also just really pinpointedly go after it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Our class was like a month long, not consecutively, but it was hardcore and you get up there and you re rehearsing and people are critiquing you and you re doing it in front of other people and they re giving you feedback and then you and Amy who ve been doing this for years and years are giving you really pointed stuff, which is good, but it s also like, man, you just, you realize, wow, I have so much work
4
SPEAKER_01
to do when it comes to this, and that s kinda what happened to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
I thought, I m okay with this, but I wanna get really good, and then I got in there and I was like, I m really not as good at this as I thought I was, but I kind of expected that to happen.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s a scary thing to do, but getting really good at the skill of public speaking, I can definitely see how people would apply this at work, in their own business, in a media opportunity if they re a thought leader, or even just when talking with other people and going, okay, how am I being perceived right now?
4
SPEAKER_01
as a performer.
4
SPEAKER_01
Most people never put themselves in that sort of state of mind because it almost feels pretentious if you re not a performer to do that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And once you get used to it, you start to really hone down the way that you re perceived and it s more effective.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, let me see if I can give you some practical examples about how some of these things apply to everyday situations.
4
SPEAKER_00
So one of the things I address in the book is your bio is how you write about yourself.
4
SPEAKER_00
So sometimes other people read it when they introduce you if you re gonna give a speech, but your bio is part of your entire reputation building package.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you go for a job interview, your bio is there.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you ask for a promotion, you re trying to move up, your bio is gonna be on the desks of the people who are reviewing you and whether you re gonna be moving up.
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So even something as straightforward as that applies to performance because it s part of the development of your character.
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So the way you tell stories, this is obviously something that the public speaker needs to master, but so many of us are well served by improving the way we tell stories.
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And I believe you re going to have my partner Amy on the show to go deeper into storytelling.
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Yes.
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Yeah, that ll be fun.
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Yeah.
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So everybody needs to listen to that because she s
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She s just amazing.
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I love her to death.
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I expect it to be a lot better than this one.
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No doubt.
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It will absolutely be better.
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She s also much, much better looking than I am.
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So unfortunately, it s a podcast.
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You won t see her, but you can imagine that you re looking at someone much better looking than I am.
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But she ll talk about stories.
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Let me just give you this.
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The punchline of a story, the resolution of a story, has got to be worth the wait.
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And often, when we tell our stories, there s too much exposition.
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There s too many details that set up the story.
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that are not necessary, that make us wait too long, and then the conflict is too short, not high enough, not high enough stakes, that when we get to the resolution, you go, oh, that s what we were waiting for?
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Or sometimes there s not enough exposition, there s not enough details, not enough time setting place, information to understand the context, the different people that we re talking about in the story.
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And so this way, when we get into the conflict or the meat of the story, then we re lost.
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We don t, we know what s going on.
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So learning how to tell stories using the three act structure, which is what Amy s going to talk about, uh, act one is exposition.
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Act two is conflict.
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Act three is resolution.
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And you spend most of your time in Act Two, about 80% of your time or so, in that middle part.
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So you get better and better at telling stories.
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And that s, of course, gonna help you, you know, the old expression, win friends and influence people.
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Because when you re at a party, people are gonna expect you to tell stories.
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That s part of the group dynamic.
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When you re at the office, when you re leading meetings, trying to get people rallied, you know, to the cause, you gotta tell the story of the project.
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What s the story of us working together to get where we wanna go?
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So getting better at storytelling, of course, is very, very important.
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If we understand the principles that I teach about affecting people intellectually, emotionally, and physically when we re in the same space, well, that can apply to so many different walks of life.
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One of the things that s really important to do when you re giving a speech, when you re in a situation, let s say you re on a date with somebody or you re networking, a situation where you just meet somebody, it s very important to establish right away that you know what the world looks like for them.
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This is important.
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That s interesting, right?
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Yeah, I ve heard this before.
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I d love to hear what you have to say about this.
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Yeah, well, in a speech, one of the most important things that an audience needs to know is that you know the way the world looks for them.
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And you know how it could look.
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And it could look a lot better.
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Right.
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So we are trying to take them on a journey to what is better.
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When you meet somebody, let s say you re networking together, it really makes a difference if they believe you understand the way the world looks to them.
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And in the development of that relationship, if you are helping them see the way the world could look, well, then that relationship can develop very powerfully, positively over time.
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Same thing, you go on a date with somebody, if they don t feel you understand the way the world looks to them, you re not gonna get a second date.
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You know, if you re on a date with somebody and she says, you know, I had this really hard time with this ex-boyfriend and, you know, I felt he was a little bit manipulative and you say, well, why did you let him do that?
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Right, then she s on the defensive at that point.
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Yeah, and she says, you don t understand the way my world is.
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You know, he seemed like a really sweet guy on the outside, but it was very subtle and you lost her because you don t understand how her world looks.
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And even if you did, you weren t demonstrating that you do know how her world looks.
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But in part, your job is to understand how her world looks and then show her how it could be if you want it to be with you.
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Can you give us some practical application of this?
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Because this is essentially persuasion at a really solid emotional level.
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I would love for people to be able to take some stuff and chew on it or try it.
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Yeah, of course.
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I have a speech to give tomorrow.
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It s a very interesting audience.
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It s actually a Jewish business summit.
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It s about 800 ultra-Orthodox Jews with the black hats.
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That s a very, very insular community.
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There are a lot of rules around what we can say and what we can t say.
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I ve had to adjust some of my stories to make sure that everything is right in line with what s appropriate.
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One of the things that I think that they will feel is that people who write books, give speeches, etc., maybe they re a little full of it.
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They live in a world where you are who you are.
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and you re not supposed to be anything other than you are.
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So I m studying this, I m asking people who know this world, you re not supposed to be too big for your britches, et cetera.
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And so here, you know, these speakers come out and they have these big, we have these bios and they re best selling this and Wall Street Journal said this and New York, you know, all this stuff.
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And they go, I don t know, what do you, you know, what do you got for me?
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So I might say, first thing I might say, listen, how can you tell how much, and I might in another situation say, you know, bullshit or BS, but here I wouldn t, I d say how much, how do you tell how much nonsense exists in one particular field or industry?
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And then I let them think about it.
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And I say, well, count the number of books written about it.
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You know, I ve written six.
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So what does that tell you?
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And then, you know, it s a little self-effacing.
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It s like, look, I get it.
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I get the way you see the world.
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I say, but look, here s my deal.
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My promise to you is that I will leave as much of the baloney out of this as possible.
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I ll try to be as straightforward as I can.
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I don t believe there s any one way to do anything.
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I think there s lots of different approaches.
4
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And I m going to give you my perspective, and some of it will resonate really well, powerfully, and others, not as much.
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But maybe something that I said today doesn t resonate, that next week it will.
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So I understand that you have a lot of experience.
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I have some experience.
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And together, we re going to try to find a way to all move along, et cetera, et cetera.
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What it does is it demonstrates that I understand the way the world looks to them and that I enjoy that, that I appreciate that, that I think that s cool.
4
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I mean, that can be really difficult.
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That again goes back to the authenticity thing.
4
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Although I think for your bio for that speech, you should just say Michael Port has a really good relationship with his mother.
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You should add that in there.
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That s funny.
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Actually, my grandfather was a rabbi.
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So I think I ve got a little bit up my sleeve there.
4
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That s it.
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That s good street cred right there.
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And then of course, everyone will go what happened?
4
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That s exactly what I m concerned, that s what my mother said.
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No, that s exactly what my mom said.
4
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My mom said, you gotta be careful because they may say, well, your grandfather was a rabbi, or an orthodox rabbi, your father became a psychiatrist, and then you became an author and a speaker.
4
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So they may look at it as a de-evolution.
4
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They may not look fondly upon that, but I actually asked the organizer of the conference, and he s like, no, no, no, actually, they ll think that s cool, that s actually good.
4
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That s really funny, yeah.
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This is a different audience, I mean, for you,
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you have that bit of history, but I m trying to imagine what it would be like if I were civic, I end up in Saudi Arabia and I m speaking to a group out there, it might be really tough to relate.
5
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I mean, they might go, what the hell do you know about the way that we live and do things?
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This is where our rehearsal and research come in.
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So we need to do a lot of research and then rehearse the way we ll behave
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in front of that group or with those people.
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And in the book, I address rehearsal extensively because most people don t rehearse when giving speeches to most people.
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Rehearsal is running through it a few times in your head or reviewing your slides a couple of times.
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Most people will build their slide deck and then they ll figure out what they want to talk about and use their slide deck as notes.
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And I suggest I generally say, you know, I generally keep people away from using slides.
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But if if you use visuals of some kind, you put them in after you ve created the content.
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and rehearsed it and worked on it, so they enhance your message and help you deliver it, but you re the focal point, not the things on the screens.
5
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This is why the research is very, very important, and that s part of our content development process.
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And then I need to go through the material that I m going to speak on because I want to make sure that the way I m delivering it is appropriate for that audience.
5
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And I need to do it.
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I can t just think it.
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I need to do it numerous times before I go in there.
5
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Yeah, there s a lot of that, like, okay, I just gotta keep that stuff in mind, dot, dot, dot, on the fly, I should be fine, and that s what causes the whole get up on stage, have a little bit of a panic moment, or one little thing goes wrong, and then you re just going, okay, 15 more minutes to kill, and that s all you can think about.
5
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Well, here s something really practical, Jordan.
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One of the best way to reduce anxiety, best way to overcome stage fright, without a doubt, best thing to do, just be prepared, do the work.
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Because when you re prepared, you feel a lot more confident.
5
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One of the reasons I think people get so nervous about speaking in front of others, and one of the reasons that people make this assumption is the more, you know, bigger fear than death, is because most of us don t prepare.
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We go out and wing it, and I ll tell you what, the people who are listening right now that are those sort of natural communicators, people who are quick on their feet, who are, you know, have the gift of gab, those are the ones who do the least amount of preparation generally.
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Right, because they think, I ve been fine before.
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Exactly.
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And what they do is an okay job, but they could be great.
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It could be extraordinary, but they do an okay job.
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So they stay average.
5
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Often the people who don t see themselves as natural performers will do more preparation and they often will actually end up doing a more effective job because they put in the work thinking that they re not very good at it.
5
SPEAKER_03
Right, yeah, right, because it s the person who trains, what is it, like the tortoise and the hare almost, where one person is like, I know I m not good at this, so I m gonna work really hard, and the other guy goes, I ll be fine when the moment arises.
5
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And these are, what we re giving here is, I m giving generalizations, but they re based on the work we ve been doing for years and what we see, and each one of us should think individually which category we fall into, as opposed to thinking about the collective.
5
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Because someone might want to argue with us.
5
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Well, I think this, people do this and people do that.
5
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That s not what we re getting at here.
5
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We want each person to think about themselves and how they see themselves as communicators or performers, and then what they need to do to become better.
5
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That s always the question.
5
SPEAKER_03
Excellent.
5
SPEAKER_03
Is there anything you want to leave us with that we haven t covered yet?
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Honestly, I could talk to you for the next 10 hours.
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The next 10 hours.
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I would say this.
5
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Look, in Steal the Show, there s tons and tons of practical advice.
5
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Tons.
5
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I mean, that s my brand.
5
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We ve been talking about a lot of concepts and philosophy and theory.
5
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And I love those kind of conversations because
5
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it lays a foundation, it sets the groundwork, it gets us thinking about things in a new way, and then hopefully encourages us to start looking at the practical application of it.
5
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But always remember, there is a very practical application of the work we re doing.
5
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And I think that we are, many of us, really looking for the opportunity to be fully self-expressed, to feel comfortable in our own skin, to feel like we can say the things we want to say, not worry about being rejected, and
5
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Often, the ability to do that doesn t come from self-expression, per se.
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It comes from self-understanding.
5
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And great performers have a really true, deep understanding of who they are and are generally comfortable with it, generally, not always, but generally.
5
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And then that allows them to step into other people s shoes and see the world from different perspectives, see each person as an individual and really love that other people are individuals and embrace that and start to connect with people in different ways, different ways than they re used to.
5
SPEAKER_03
Excellent, so the book is already out.
5
SPEAKER_03
It came out literally yesterday, so you can go and buy it.
5
SPEAKER_03
The link is in the show notes, and you ve got a lot of content that people can check out as well.
5
SPEAKER_03
Jason, you took the online, one of the online courses that Michael has.
5
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What d you think?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I took a heroic public speaking on creative live and it is honestly changed my life.
5
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Just the concepts in the first day alone, I ve been putting into action just with, you know, just my voice and my body language on the street with regular people and not even in any kind of performance, but also in my podcasting performance, it doesn t really, you know, hurt to have these skills.
5
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, I, I totally recommend checking that out.
5
SPEAKER_03
That s funny, because Jason, for those who don t know or haven t heard all the episodes with him, you re not a hyperbole guy.
5
SPEAKER_03
You re not a, this changed my life, kind of guy.
5
SPEAKER_03
Oh, God, no.
5
SPEAKER_03
No.
5
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He runs a show called Grumpy Old Geeks, where they complain about everything.
5
SPEAKER_00
Honestly, I feel really honored.
5
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, it s really good stuff.
5
SPEAKER_03
I mean, here s another thing that people ask me is, who are your coaches?
5
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And I have quite a few, but one of the best ones, I will say, and I m not just trying to ego stroke here, is your speaking class was so in-depth and so tailored that it was one of the best experiences I ve had learning anything.
5
SPEAKER_03
And I have seven years of formal education that I
5
SPEAKER_03
would have traded for many other things, including the money I spent for it.
5
SPEAKER_03
But this is really good, and I think the only way to really dig in deep with this stuff is to do immersion.
5
SPEAKER_03
Obviously, a book is a great start.
5
SPEAKER_03
It s better than ignoring the problem, but the reason you ve been on the show twice is because I believe in what we re talking about here, and I ve experienced it firsthand.
5
SPEAKER_03
So thank you very, very much for your time.
5
SPEAKER_03
Check out the book.
5
SPEAKER_03
Again, the link is in the show notes, and we ll link to some of the other courses and resources as well from Michael Port.
5
SPEAKER_03
Awesome stuff as usual.
5
SPEAKER_03
I really love talking to Michael.
5
SPEAKER_03
Great guy.
5
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Good friend of mine.
5
SPEAKER_03
As you can hear, you know, we really riff easily in these conversations.
5
SPEAKER_03
And frankly, he s one of my favorite guests.
5
SPEAKER_03
I love the idea of separating validation from the desire to get results.
5
SPEAKER_03
And of course,
5
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The arguments about using absolutes and these little psychological distractions or things that take away from your message when you re presenting is just one of many, many things that Michael can teach.
5
SPEAKER_03
I took a lot of coaching from him.
5
SPEAKER_03
He s got a great course as well that we recommend, and that ll be in the show notes.
5
SPEAKER_03
There s a little bit of overlap with what we teach at AOC, not a ton, but enough that I m very confident in
5
SPEAKER_03
all of the results that I ve gotten from my coaching with him as well as what he can teach you if you check that stuff out online.
5
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Of course, I don t want you to think, oh, I learned everything from a set of videos, but I think that Michael Port is an excellent teacher in video format as well.
5
SPEAKER_03
And then, you know, take Art of Charm, if you ve already taken AOC, definitely check out his stuff, and like I said, really good plugins there as well.
5
SPEAKER_03
So thanks again to Michael Port for coming back on the show.
5
SPEAKER_03
Show feedback and guest suggestions, the show s a fanarchy, it s run by you.
5
SPEAKER_03
we rely on you to help keep our finger on the pulse.
5
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So if you know someone who s a good fit for the show, let me know, jordanattheartofcharm.com, and of course I m gonna ask you to introduce me to them, so hopefully you can at least try that.
5
SPEAKER_03
And if you enjoyed this, don t forget to thank Michael Port on Twitter, which he really never uses, but let s force him back to the table on that one.
5
SPEAKER_03
We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as the other resources mentioned on the show.
5
SPEAKER_03
I also post a lot on Twitter.
5
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Stuff that just never makes it to the show.
5
SPEAKER_03
Articles, insights, and smart-ass comments and replies to you guys.
5
SPEAKER_03
I m at theartofcharm on Twitter.
5
SPEAKER_03
Bootcamp details at theartofcharm.com slash bootcamp.
5
SPEAKER_03
And remember, we re sold out several months in advance, so if you re thinking about it a little, get in touch now, get some info from us, plan ahead.
5
SPEAKER_03
We ll see you here.
5
SPEAKER_03
And on the website, of course, we also have our blog with a lot of articles and bonus episodes that aren t released in the iTunes feed.
5
SPEAKER_03
For those of you who just can t get enough AOC, subscribe on iTunes, write us a review.
5
SPEAKER_03
Helps us stand out from the riff-raff.
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SPEAKER_03
Special thanks to the Jasons for their help in production of the Art of Charm podcast.
5
SPEAKER_03
Now go ahead and tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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SPEAKER_03
Now have a great week, and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
5
SPEAKER_02
Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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SPEAKER_02
Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and everything for the extraordinary man at theartofcharmpodcast.com.