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Welcome to the Sell or Die podcast.
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I m your host, Jeffrey Gittler.
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Well, in this podcast, we re going to help you attract more qualified, unbelievable, ready to buy clients.
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And the one thing you re hoping for, blows more deals.
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It s time to sell or die.
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Good afternoon, good morning, good evening, wherever you are in the world.
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Die Hard, this is an exclusive sell or die interview, the likes of which you have never heard.
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I m with Lee Salls, who s just like a sales guy, only smarter.
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He grew up in New Jersey like I did.
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And all he talks about are things that you can go out into the street and turn into money.
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So I would stay tuned if I were you, and I would watch it twice minimum.
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Lee, welcome.
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Thank you, Jeffrey.
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If my wife hears that opening, Jeffrey, she s going to do everything she can to shrink my head.
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Cool.
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Lee, when you started in sales, what did you start out as?
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I was in the fitness industry.
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While I was in college, I went to school in upstate New York in Binghamton.
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And while I went to school full-time, I was working in a gym, selling memberships and managing the gym, all that good stuff.
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Fell in love with the fitness industry and came to find, you know, there s no money in that space.
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But I loved the sales thing and so wound up making that my profession.
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And when did you find out that you were better than other people?
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Never.
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I never look at myself that way.
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It s interesting.
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I had a colleague ask me about a year ago.
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He said, how did you know you made it?
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I said, never said that I did.
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Because as soon as you say you made it, you become complacent.
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You re going to get your butt kicked.
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Well, that s one way of looking at it.
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I monikered myself as the king of sales.
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So I had to keep up.
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I didn t want somebody going, oh, no, you re not.
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Tell me I m not, please.
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Prove it.
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So Dyer, that s a couple of ways of looking at it.
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who you are and who you want to become.
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There s this expression in sales, Jeffrey, that really drives complacency.
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You re only as good as your last sale.
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I completely agree with that.
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I gave a keynote speech on Monday, and we were talking about the importance of not being complacent, that you re hungry.
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And I had to fill in the blank.
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He said, you re only as good as your blank sale.
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And I had a multiple choice.
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And most of the audience, he said last.
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He said last.
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And the expression should be, you re only as good as your next sale.
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Always looking for tomorrow.
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That s interesting.
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Always thinking about tomorrow.
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So predominantly on this show are salespeople, sales leaders, and entrepreneurs.
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And they re always looking for a new bit of information.
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And I have found, this is just me personally, I don t talk to a lot of sales guys, but Lee, I have to talk to because he s not just a writer, he s insightful.
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He s been there, he s done that.
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And when you grow up in New Jersey, you fight, you fight for everything.
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And you re challenged on an everyday basis to be better than the other guy.
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Like I, when I sold in New York City and I was making huge sales at the time, and I realized that these people were selling the same thing, but they didn t have the same expression.
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They didn t have the same ability to make a friend.
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They didn t have the same communication skills.
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And I won, I kept winning.
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And that s what really told me.
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And I have a feeling that Lee might be in the same situation.
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Like he realized that he was a little bit better than the other guy and that caused him to start to write.
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Talk about that.
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That s part of what.
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inspired me.
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My two books, Sales Differentiation and Sell Different, and my talk the other day was about, forget about what you re selling for a moment.
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Let s focus on how you sell.
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Because I d argue that how you sell is even more powerful than what you re selling.
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And I gave this example.
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Two salespeople making a prospecting phone call.
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First one calls
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that s head of manufacturing and says, I m guessing since you re manufacturing, you re looking for ways to reduce costs and increase efficiency.
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And that s something my company does very, very well.
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Second salesperson reached out to that head of manufacturing and says, I just came across an article in the business journal, an interview with your CEO, talking about an initiative to reduce costs
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and increase efficiency.
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And since you re the head of manufacturing, I m guessing that responsibility is going to be placed on you.
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Well, we work with manufacturing executives to address those issues.
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So who got the meeting?
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First one or the second one?
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Second.
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But who had the better solution?
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Well, that s what gets the salespeople s attention.
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What would you say if I told you that first salesperson had by far the superior solution, but never got to the table because of how we sold?
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Correct.
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So the sale is made emotionally and then justified logically.
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You got it.
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And the challenge with that first guy is that he tried to lead with the solution instead of lead with something that engaged.
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So we talked earlier about the coaches from the Napoleon Hill Institute, which I m currently involved with.
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And most coaches think they have to introduce themselves.
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I m so-and-so.
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I ve been doing this for 28 years.
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My clients love me.
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I m really good.
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I don t care.
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I don t care.
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In today s world, it s all about who you are and what can you offer me that I can win with.
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Where s the value?
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Not a value proposition, the value.
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Because value propositions are written by marketing people who have no idea what they re doing.
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They think it s about the company.
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Right, so when you look at that spectrum, right?
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One end of the spectrum, you ve got complacent.
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On the other end, you have receptive.
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So when we re making these prospecting phone calls, like the example that I just gave, if they were in a receptive state, they would already have been calling us.
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But we re prospecting into them.
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So they re in a complacent state.
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What s everybody s favorite subject?
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Themselves.
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So when they re in a complacent state, help me to understand me better and the issues that I may not be aware of that I need to address that, by the way, your company does.
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get about me and your point.
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I don t want to hear about you and your credentials, all this stuff.
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Tell me about me.
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When it s time to give your credentials is when they ask for them.
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That s correct.
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The Napoleon Hill opening question is now tell me about the best coach you ever had, as opposed to I m from the Napoleon Hill Institute and we re the greatest people.
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Yeah, there s no comparison because immediately I m in the emotional state with that person.
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they know I m going to talk about coaching, and I ve said it all in eight or 10 words.
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Most people don t understand the power of the ask.
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They think the ask comes at the end.
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It doesn t.
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It comes at the very beginning.
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It s not the close, it s the open.
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Yes, absolutely.
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And there s so many books that have been written about questioning that I haven t found one that really gets to the heart of the questioning approach.
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And you made a statement before, it s one of the oldest expressions in sales, that people buy based on emotion,
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justify their decision with logic.
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But if we videotaped 100 sales calls, at least 99 of them, the entire conversation is logic.
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So every salesperson on the planet has heard that expression, but they don t know how to apply it when they re selling.
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And or they re pieces of shit salespeople that only care about the commission.
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Let s talk about the automobile industry.
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Yeah.
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Somebody walks in, and they re walking into a car dealership, and they go, we re looking to lease or buy today.
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Do you have a budget?
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Like, seriously?
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But I will give them their props, Jeffrey.
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I m going to give them their props on one thing that they do better than other salespeople, and that s engage emotion.
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And the way they do that is, when you first go into that showroom, what they want to do so quickly is get you behind the wheel.
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No argument with that.
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Right?
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But there s a way to do it.
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Do they adjust the temperature?
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Yeah, there s a way to do it.
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Yes, there is.
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You say, Mr. Jones, welcome.
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I m assuming you re here to look at a car, because if you re looking for groceries, it s the store right next door.
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So I m making them laugh.
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And then I m going to say, regardless of what you came in for, show me your favorite car in the showroom.
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And let s just take it out for a spin.
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And during that spin, I m going to say, I have a headache.
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Do you mind driving?
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So now they re behind the wheel of the car that they think is the coolest freaking car on the planet.
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I can ask anything, I can talk to them about anything, and they ll be truthful with me.
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One of the problems that salespeople have with prospects is the prospect may not always be truthful.
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In fact, prospects might lie to you more than you will lie to them.
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But there s a bigger picture issue here, which is that the sales management profession does not build the framework for their salespeople, at least not often enough.
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To say, hey, salespeople, you need to go have that discovery meeting, you need to have that interaction.
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ask some good questions and we re going to hope for the best.
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They don t build that entire framework out and then we re shocked that we don t get the results.
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I ve got this client, CEO, he s got a great line.
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He goes, there s the business we make happen and the business that happens to us.
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And salespeople and executives oftentimes can t distinguish between those two.
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So when we ve got tailwinds, right,
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The economy s helping us.
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The interest rates are low.
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Little competition.
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Boy, this sales game is easy.
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Yeah, I think I have something to do with it, erroneously.
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Right?
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And then you hit some sales headwinds.
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Economy s going in the wrong direction.
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The competition is squeezing you.
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And you go, boy, I thought I was good at the sales thing.
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What happened?
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Yeah.
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supply chain, and they ll blame rather than take responsibility.
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That s the worst part.
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The economy s bad, my customers won t return my call, whatever it is they re talking about.
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There s a hesitancy on the part of the salesperson to come up with an idea.
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I don t understand that at all.
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I need an idea.
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I need to get around inflation.
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I need to get around.
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And what they don t realize is it s not just you.
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It s everybody in your industry.
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It s the same damn thing.
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And you just have to be more acceptable.
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The customer has to be more open to you.
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And the only way you do that is to ask some questions that engage, ask some questions that emotionally engage, and then you ll earn the sale rather than have to close the sale.
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This is exactly why I built that sales organization maturity assessment that you and I have been talking about.
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It is to help sales leaders, help business owners, help executives figure out where they may have some blind spots, where they have an opportunity to tighten up their game.
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Because we become complacent.
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We talked about complacency before.
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We become complacent when we ve got tailwinds.
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We have all the support.
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We go, oh, we don t need to look at sales.
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We re doing great.
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When those headwinds come along, we re like, what happened?
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How come we can t sell anymore?
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And so I developed this tool to help those executives find those opportunities.
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If you are listening right now and you re in management or you own the business, the link for that assessment will be in the chat and you can figure it out for yourself.
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Should we tell them the website?
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Sure.
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It s assessmysales.com.
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By the way, it s totally free.
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This is something that I designed as a way to give back to the sales profession.
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And if you re a salesperson, this is not for you.
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This is for management, it s for the executives.
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See, most assessment tools that you ve come across, they re designed to answer one question, can this person sell?
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But that s not what this is.
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This is a mirror test for the management team and it answers a different question.
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Have we built the sales organization framework that can produce the results that we want?
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And so it s gonna look at six areas.
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It s gonna look at new client acquisition,
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Account Management, Sales Management, Hiring, Onboarding, and Compensation.
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And you re gonna get an evaluation score for each of those six, as well as an overall.
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And it says, by the way, if you re a little short in one of those categories, what are the things to do to advance?
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Give me the website again.
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Cessmysales.com.
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Can you see it?
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No.
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A-S-S-E-S-S-Mysales.com.
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You got it.
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It s up there.
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Yep, there it is.
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That s a good bingo.
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I would challenge you to just click on the link and it ll take you where you gotta go.
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It ll take you 10 to 15 minutes to go through it, but you re going to get so much insight and opportunity to say, boy, here are some things that we re not doing that if we started doing them, we d get better performance from our sales team.
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It s amazing to me how many sales managers do not go out on sales calls with their people.
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True.
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That is one of the questions that s in this assessment tool about that.
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Yeah, I m sure that I ve actually seen the assessment.
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I don t want to break any bad news to anybody, but it s going to embarrass many people, not for what they do, but for what they don t do.
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And I think that you need to look at this from the perspective of if you are telling your salespeople what to do and you don t know what they do, that s the biggest problem of them all.
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And if you re a sales manager or leader and your people think that they re smarter than you, another problem.
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And I mean, huge problem.
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So that s where we re at at this moment.
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And what should salespeople be doing today, Lee?
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What are the things that they re not doing that they should be doing?
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Obviously, prospecting never ends.
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It doesn t matter what year it is.
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A pipeline that is weak, if you just run the rest of the numbers, you re not going to get there.
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So we think there was all this noise a few years ago.
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Social selling, that s the only way to sell today is social selling.
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It s a piece.
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Referrals, that s the only way to sell today.
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That s a piece.
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prospecting is also a piece.
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And so if you want to have a healthy pipeline, you ve got to run on all cylinders and leverage every opportunity that you can.
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The pipeline literally is the predictor.
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And I don t, you know, if you have a $100,000 a month budget and you have $80,000 in your pipeline, you re
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If you have, I m a one out of four guy, so you need a $400,000 pipeline in order to be able to create the $100,000.
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And if you have, I m gonna make a prediction.
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If you have one customer at the end of the month that you need in order to be able to get your quota, that customer will never, ever close.
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I was hoping your prediction was gonna be the Yankees are gonna win the World Series, but.
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That s not happening either.
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Although I m in love with Aaron Judge.
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How can you not?
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How can you not?
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But you know, it s interesting.
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And I m sure you ve heard this a million times too, salespeople and professional athletes uttered in the same breath.
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You can see why, right?
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You have the competition, all the statistical data, but there is one fundamental difference between professional athletes and most salespeople.
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See, a professional athlete, they ll work hours, days, weeks, months, years, perfecting their craft so that when they re in competition, they perform flawlessly.
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What do most salespeople do?
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They play the game over and over again, hoping to be better the next time.
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That s a huge difference, a huge difference in approach.
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The salesperson is not as dedicated as the athlete.
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I will chastise salespeople all the time.
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if you re drinking beer or a glass of wine and watching Netflix at night, you re going to lose to somebody that s studying.
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You re going to lose to someone who s more intent than you are.
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You re going to lose to somebody who s more intentional than you are.
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You re going to lose to somebody who can build a relationship better than you can or turn it in.
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What s the Mark Cuban quote?
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Work is hard.
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What is it?
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Work like someone who s working just as hard to take it all away from you.
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Yeah.
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perspective when you look at it that way.
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Yeah, I think that there s a lot of unspoken things right now that since the quote pandemic, the world has gone virtual as well as face to face.
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Most salespeople did not know what Zoom was before the pandemic hit.
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And now you have to be just as animated when you re in the Zoom situation as you are when you re in the real situation.
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Absolutely.
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If you can t build a relationship in a virtual environment, you re going to have a problem today.
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Yeah, real big problem.
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And so my recommendation is you send them a box of their favorite K-cups and a mug, not your mug, some other mug.
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And the mug that I send is sometimes all you need is a billion dollars.
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Now,
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They may not have that as their favorite mug, but they ll never forget you sent it to them.
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Ever, ever.
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That s very true.
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Very true.
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For $30, you cheap bastards.
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And so, if you re really looking to make a sale, you have to make an impact.
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You have to give me a reason to say hello to you.
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Anyway, one of my customers is in the architectural world, and there s a book by Ayn Rand called The Fountainhead.
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Every architect
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has read The Fountainhead.
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Every single architect has read The Fountainhead because it s based on the life of Frank Lloyd Wright and all kinds of, a lot of guys written by Ayn Rand, fucking great writer.
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And I m coaching this class of people and I said, how many of you deal with architects?
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How many of you get your calls returned by architects?
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But if you send a box of their favorite K-cup and the first line from the fountainhead, which is Howard Rourke left, it s a very famous line in that business.
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And you send the mug and the box of K-cups and a meeting arranged for 8 o clock, they ll all be there.
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And so far, the return call rate is like at about 500% of what it was.
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Think about that.
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And all it takes is an idea.
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And salespeople are not taught to have ideas that they think marketing has ideas.
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book that has me all fired up called Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely.
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And it s all about how people make decisions.
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And if we re a student of the game in sales, we need to understand better how people make decisions.
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And it s absolutely fascinating.
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I highly recommend it.
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Let me go back.
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Student of the game.
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You have to remain a student.
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I m writing a book called When I Dropped Out of College, I Became a Student.
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That s great.
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I love that.
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That s the reality.
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You re learning something new every day and you can t walk around thinking you know everything because you don t.
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And I recommend to everybody, you think you re good at sales?
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Oh yeah, I m really good at sales.
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Great.
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Take an Airbnb in New York City for three months, cold call, report your findings.
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And most people literally have never been to New York or they say, yeah, I was there once and I didn t like it.
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It was too traffic-y.
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Like what?
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No, no.
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It s the epicenter of our society.
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It is where everything happens or not.
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It is a place to learn how to sell in a way where I can t even explain it.
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But if I didn t sell in New York City for years, I couldn t do this.
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That s right.
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I just couldn t.
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It d be impossible.
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I m addressing a group of BMW franchise owners.
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Am I going to say I m from Kansas?
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No, I m not going to say I m.
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I mean, just think about that.
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Think about where your credibility is.
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Like I cold called in New York City for three years.
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Fuck you as a greeting and everybody wanted a bribe.
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And there s truth to that scary truth to that.
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And you have to be able to learn how to make sales in that environment in spite of that environment.
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So I m challenging you to die hard.
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You get Lee s right behind you, Lee, or two of your books.
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Correct.
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Sales differentiation and sell different.
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Make it even easier.
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There we go.
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Very well done.
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Thank you.
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It s Gleasols and it is sales differentiation.
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The other one is sell different.
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Take advantage of the free assessment.
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It took 10 years to put that together.
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Really?
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A little slow.
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Yeah.
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People from New York are never slow.
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No sales differentiation.
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How s that?
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Is that good right there?
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You got it.
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And sell different.
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And if you don t buy these, you re, you re, there s only one or two things originally you won t buy these two books.
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Number one, you re a cheap bastard.
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Number two, you re an idiot.
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So don t be a cheap bastard.
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Don t be an idiot.
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Just go to Amazon right now and get them.
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But I have a bigger challenge for you.
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Lee is telling you what you have to do in order to be able to get inside someone s office and stay there.
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That s the whole deal.
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Anybody can get in.
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You can t stay unless you re perceived as different, slash better, slash have value.
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That s the whole deal.
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And I wish I had a nickel for every salesperson who goes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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That means I know everything and I already do this.
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Right.
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Okay.
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100%?
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Well, no.
50%?
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Well, no.
30%?
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Well, close.
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Okay, bye.
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I gotta go.
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I m amazed at the inability or the ineptness of salespeople to get to that next level.
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And all it takes is study.
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It s not rocket science, but it is rocket fuel.
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And your job is to take lessons as much as you possibly can.
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And Lee is great at giving lessons.
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You re very kind.
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Thank you.
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I m not kind, but I am accurate.
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So, my challenge to you, Diehard, is go out and figure out who you are and why you re different and why you re better and why you can convey your value better than anybody else.
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And Lee will point this out in his books step by step.
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I recommend you take the sales analysis and the sales assessment because it will give you, if you re a leader or an entrepreneur,
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that will give you an insight as to what you really need versus what you re doing right now.
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And it s simple, and it s easy, and it s free.
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Woo, free.
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You like free.
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Huh?
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Yeah, no.
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I see.
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Everybody likes free.
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Yeah, everybody does like free.
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There actually is a cost.
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You have to invest time.
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It ll take you 10 to 15 minutes to get through it.
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But if you want a corned beef sandwich in New York City, it s not free.
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That is true.
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It s plenty.
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Just dedicate the time because it s about you.
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The answers in the end are about you.
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And there s no cheating.
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You can t fake yourself out.
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It s too late for that.
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But you can put yourself in a winning position.
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That s the whole key.
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And I m just challenging you.
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This is your time.
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You re in this game every day.
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And the object is win the game.
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You know, like in chess, the object is kill the king.
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But every great chess player was once a beginner, and every great salesperson was once a beginner.
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And you have to put yourself in that beginner s circumstance if you have a couple of new people.
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But even seasoned people don t always understand the strategies that are capable.
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And you need to read new information to be able to find that.
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Like, I ve been writing what I perceive to be new information for years.
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Some buy it.
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Some go, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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You can t be a yeah, yeah, yeah guy.
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You can be a yes guy.
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You can t be a yeah, yeah, yeah guy.
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So three times better when you say yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I don t know.
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It just seems like it s more New York to me.
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And I got a brother in law.
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Okay, great.
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Everybody has a relative in New York City, or a friend named Louie.
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Yeah, I just call Louie.
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I ll tell you though, I just met an old buddy of mine in New York, we met at the Red Flame.
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the diner on 44th Street right across next to the Algonquin right across the street from the Royalton.
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My favorite places in New York City, the same Bellman, the same Bellman have been there for 30 years.
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I go in and I hug Bellman.
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It s crazy, but that s who they are.
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They hang around in the same job and they, you know, they do the same thing and they, they like me because I m a, I m a seasoned guest and I commiserate with them.
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Pretty cool.
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It s pretty cool.
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So I would love to have breakfast with you at the Red Flame, because they have the best salami and eggs on the planet.
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On the planet.
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Love it.
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They have the big salad.
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Oh, yeah.
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OK, as long as they have the big salad.
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Yeah, they do.
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You know how funny that is?
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We re in New York, a bunch of people in a salad company, it s like falling off the plate.
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And the person was not used to it.
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Right.
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But in New York, salads are big, because they re 20 bucks now.
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It s $22 for a Caesar salad.
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$22 for a Caesar salad.
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I m like, seriously?
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I was in the Algonquin Hotel, and I m sitting with the general manager a few years ago.
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And I ordered French fries, just to have something to nibble on.
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They were $8, delivered to your table.
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And I looked at the general manager, and I go, $8 for French fries?
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And he said, I thought there were $10.
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It s a great line.
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Prices are just ridiculous.
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Yeah, everything is.
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And you just deal with it or you go home.
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Right.
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Or you can whine about it like a baby.
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Don t be whining about it.
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Pay it gladly.
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Pay it because you can afford it.
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You know, pay it because it s New York City.
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You get to walk outside and you re in New York City.
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Nothing better.
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Walk across the street and make a cold call.
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I dare you.
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Anyway, so Lee, if you have parting words of advice, something that you always tell salespeople, I would love to know that and then we re out.
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Sounds good.
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So there s a title in sales that your employer and I give you.
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It s professional salesperson.
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And the way that you earn that title is by having a commitment to continuous self-improvement.
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Let you do something today and every day to make yourselves more valuable to your prospects and clients tomorrow.
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Weekends count, holidays count, every day counts.
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Do something every single day to make yourself more valuable to your prospects and clients tomorrow.
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Diehards, great words of information and value.
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Go out there and make a sale today, even if your ass falls off.
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Thank you, Lee.
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Thank you, Jeffrey.
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Thanks for listening to the show.
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Don t forget to like, share.
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Yeah, share with both your friends.
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And subscribe to the podcast.
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And remember, we have a free 22 day sales challenge.
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Just go to gitter.com slash sales challenge to start you on your way.