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Hi, this is Carrie Brownstein.
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This is DJ Premier.
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This is Darren Aronofsky.
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You got The Wizard right here.
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Rose McGowan.
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Right here.
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Aisha Tyler.
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Tron Conquest.
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Fred Armisen.
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Fritz Paul.
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Javier Munoz.
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Seth Meyers.
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Frankie Cosmos.
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Flying Lotus.
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Hi, we re Haim, and you re listening to the TalkHouse Podcast.
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Hello, and welcome to the Talk House Podcast.
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I m Josh Modell.
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This week s pairing came together in a fun way when a newish artist referenced the work of a more established band in a song, and the head of a legendary indie label thought they should meet.
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That sounds complicated, but don t worry, I ll explain.
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Our guests are Claire Rousey and Kevin Drew.
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Kevin Drew is best known as one of the founders of Broken Social Scene, the influential Canadian band slash collective that s been around for 25 years now.
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The band has amassed an incredible catalog that broke out with 2002 s unstoppable You Forgot It in People, but all of its records reward a deep dive, as does the solo work that Drew has also released over the years.
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Last year, he put out a moving record about loss, among other things, called Aging.
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And as you ll hear in this conversation, he hopes to reignite Broken Social Scene for one more run that includes some of the collective s members that have gone on to big careers outside the band, like Leslie Feist and Emily Haynes.
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I would personally love to see it.
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I imagine the other half of today s conversation, Claire Rousey, would as well.
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The impetus for this conversation is her song Lover s Spit Plays in the Background.
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In case you re not familiar with the aforementioned Broken Social Scene album, it features a song called Lover s Spit.
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Rousey s song is from her fantastic new album Sentiment, just out on Thrill Jockey Records, on which she leans more into song structure than on past releases, which have been tagged emo-ambient.
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Rousey uses found sounds, hazy atmospherics, and autotune to tell sometimes crushingly depressing stories in a way that somehow turn out gorgeous.
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Check out a little bit of Lover s Spit plays in the background right here.
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life s in the background making you
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This conversation ended up happening because Thrill Jockey s Bettina Richards reached out to Drew to let him know about the nod on Rousey s song, and the rest is history.
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As you ll hear, they connected pretty quickly, and they chat about blackout curtains, influential record labels, the death of Kevin s mom, and what Drew dubs Claire s, quote, beautiful, vulnerable, shadowy womb sleeping bag of a record.
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Enjoy.
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Well, it s a pleasure to be here with you.
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Yeah, it s amazing.
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Thank you for being here on the Talk House podcast.
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Where are you?
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I live in some trees in a little small town outside of Toronto.
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So that s where I m at currently.
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And you are in L.A.
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Is that true?
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I am in L.A., but a little outside of everything in a not so tree surrounded zone.
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Yeah.
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But if you want to jump right into it, I know a lot more about you than you know about me, so.
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Okay.
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Well, let s, we should do this.
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Yeah, I mean, last night I was trying to sort of just talk to you to say, what do you want to talk about?
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I m an open book.
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I don t know how you are about being an open book.
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I don t want to make you uncomfortable.
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So you just have to kind of guide me and where you want to go and I ll go there with you.
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It s a safe place and let s just call in good things and real things and I think we ll be just fine.
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Yeah, no, I m an open book as well.
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I guess for context, I know about you obviously because of your wildly successful and solo projects and other efforts.
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I appreciate you throwing those last two lines in there.
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I m actually more familiar with the Spirit F record than anything else you ve done.
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I m going to be honest.
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Well, I already like you more than I did 30 seconds ago.
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I see.
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Okay, I m doing a good job here.
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Yeah.
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No, I didn t know because I grew up pretty in a conservative background.
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I grew up evangelical Christian in the South.
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I m originally from Winnipeg, but I grew up in Texas.
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I didn t really know anything about cool music until I was a little bit older.
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But I got to catch the Spirit If record because somebody at a open mic night covered you.
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I was like, that song is too good to be an original song.
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I think this man was trying to pass it off as his own.
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I Googled the lyrics when I got home and then I found the record.
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Then I went to the store and bought it the next week.
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That s my intro to you.
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I love that.
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When I got your album recently, I very much dove in and Tina was asking me, which just to be chatting with her alone, you are on one of my all time favorite record labels.
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And I want to discuss that with you.
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But she did mention that.
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Can you find the song that references
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a song of yours, a lyric of yours.
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Of course, it was quite prevalent and also very beautiful.
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I love it and I already have an emotional attachment to you and I already feel very protective just from hearing that song.
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That s why I was trying to call you last night to make sure that I got that out of the way before we spoke.
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But I very much love that tune and I love the referencing of Lover Spit.
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That s a song that, Claire, it changed my life in a way because within this realm of so many that has broken social scene,
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And though i had written that with people in my band brendan and i basically sorted out and actually a drummer named james payment from do make say think you play the original drums with the tambourine off time that sort of locked my piano playing rhythm that then.
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really became a way that I played piano, but it also became a way in how I heard things and breathed, and BPMs in my heart changed to that time signature.
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So when anyone recognizes that it s the most successful thing that I have been a part of, where I ve come to the table with it, I m always quite touched by it.
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So thank you very much.
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Oh my god, yeah.
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That is really beautiful to hear.
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And I mean, I feel like a certain attachment to that song in particular.
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So it is interesting that it changed you in such a way, because I think it has that effect on people that listen to it, not just the people that are involved in creating it.
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I mean, for me, Love or Spit is a song that s been there for
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me for a very long time in various parts of my life in different stages of growing.
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So I appreciate you making it and it is interesting to me that it means so much to you because I feel like when people make music and
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a void of, I don t know, so many of the things that you put into it, I guess.
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Does that make sense?
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It does.
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The song can get ruined so easy.
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I want to go back to something, but to answer that very quickly, I think they really are your friends, your kids, their songs are something that you have.
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Obviously, some nights I couldn t sing it depending on what was happening in my life.
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It was very much written at a time where I was married in a wonderful marriage.
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and we had then divorced and it was difficult for me for a few years to not feel like an imposter, as you know, as we all know, as we do as humans and artists and all that.
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But I think, which is really so beautiful what you said, what made me get past that and even get past my personality, which isn t super cool guy who s, I m a ham.
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I m quite loony and crazy and sometimes I feel like I disrespect the emotions that I try to conjure up with just my characteristic of trying to make everybody laugh.
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But you said something just a moment ago, which is what I heard in your music is that you re trying to be there for someone.
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I think we both know that that s what music does.
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You re never alone when you have music.
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When you discover that and you decide that you want to create music, that s what I feel is the goal.
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How does that feel for you?
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You know, listening to but also creating music has been there for me through, you know, everything, but people have asked me about my music more.
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things where you make music and then it comes out, so there s more chances to talk about yourself.
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But people ask about, what do you want people to take away from these things or what do you want people to understand?
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I don t want to speak for you, but so much of the music I like, there s a little bit more openness to it and a little bit more of flexibility in terms of attaching your own feelings to it.
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I m really into the idea of people interpreting
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what I do however they want.
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I feel like there are various angles and ways to attach oneself to the music that you make and the music that you write.
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I don t know if that s true for you or how you feel about it or you re trying to say something very specific and you don t want to take something else away.
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It feels like that to me.
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Good, because you want people to take that into their lives and own it through their own lens and their own heartbeats and how they hear things.
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I love songs that are stories, but for me, the songs I always took
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to my bedroom, to my car, to looking out the window traveling, were songs that didn t have to alienate me away from my life.
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It was something that I could grab onto and have an understanding through what I was going through.
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I think with Broken, social scene, that was the element of where we were coming from lyrically.
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I can t speak for the other songwriters, but I can look at what they wrote when they were with us.
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There was very much a unified idea of community within the pain of trying to figure out how to live life.
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I have so many questions about being in a band.
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I ve done it before, but I guess, what s it like trying to address things like that with other people, or I guess come to a consensus on how to express that, if that makes sense?
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Yeah, it does.
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I think
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we don t address it.
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I think what we try to put our efforts into is allowing everyone to be themselves, though we all have so much information on each other.
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That s almost like a photo album that restricts people from moving forward, and that s what I feel like being in a band is.
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you re trapped in this time.
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But the only place that you re able to be free from without judgment is while you re creating a song.
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Then once you go into the element, I don t really get lyrical notes that often.
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When I do, that is something I listen to because that means someone s actually listening.
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But I think within a band, it is like a family and a marriage, and you need to be counseling and communicating.
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I ve been able to spend my time with music where someone s not so into it.
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So I ll bounce over to another member who seems to be into it, and then I manipulate my way through that band at times to try to figure out who s going to support me in the vulnerability of trying to come up with
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lyrics, but I think the only reason we last as long as we did is because in the end, we do support each other and we try to support each other individually to get to the task of what they want.
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Also, right now, it s different times.
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It s not back porch of our days, but it is we accomplish what we wanted.
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Now, it s mainly about staying with the people, playing for the people, and the fact that this world has just gone full circle and it s where it was when we started.
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We want to make a record one more time and get out there.
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and bring everyone into a room.
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It will be eight years since we put music out if we achieve making an album.
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It could never be our life, but it was always the thing that made our life work.
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It s a bit of a battle and people just coming and going all the time in terms of feists into it, then she s not, and Emily s into it, and then she s not.
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Those are really huge forces.
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that it s not that it hurts, it s completely understandable because people have their own careers.
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But there really is a je ne sais quoi beauty when we re all together.
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But it s chaos on stage due to the element of we ve never really been able to wrangle this thing into it being controlled.
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So you have to let go of control to do it.
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That s really difficult.
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So it should be for a lot of people because there s a lot of performers out there that need it to be the way that
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It has to be for them to go to that place because it s such an unsafe place a lot of the time.
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I love what you re saying about the chaos on stage.
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Do you feel comfortable in that?
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Sometimes I do.
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Sometimes I get very angry at the people who are making it loud, but I generally know what I m doing now, and so is the band.
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Sometimes we look at each other and we think, this is crazy, but we just know what we re doing.
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It s just memory muscle.
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We re there for each other on stage as well if there s some craziness.
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But what s happened with social scene is that everybody needs
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the same thing and that s just to have their needs be met even if they re little or large.
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That s difficult when you have a big band that doesn t have a huge crew by any means, let alone you re getting older and you re all contributing to this.
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this metamorphosis of what was something very youthful.
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It gets taxing, but never without celebration, which is the reason we re still together.
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When we play shows and they go well, it really is a very elated feeling and you do get the energy from the people and just having so many young people come out now to the shows is rewarding in itself.
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The fact we re still doing it, you can t take that for granted and I know
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that wanting more, the barriers always change within that, and the finish line s always getting pushed, and that s just the way it goes in life.
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Half the time you re just trying to remember what you forgot, and the other time you re just trying to remember that you don t need that much.
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Do you feel like the finish line was always being pushed?
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Or I guess maybe it still is.
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I do have to form a relationship of wondering what my life would have been if this band had not broken up, but just stopped.
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Because it really was something that we achieved what we set out to achieve.
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Then once you do that, then you do have to achieve more.
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And only because also as you get older, the comforts and the stresses and the strains of this life of no sleep and constant travel, it s not as easy.
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And if you see your peers at all, you fall into at any point of any kind of jealousy or pettiness about what is in front of you and happening and still working around you.
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It s not a great place to stand as a human, but you re also human.
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It s hard not to stand there.
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I appreciate you being so honest about that.
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I feel like so many people like to pretend that, you know, the jealousy or whatever that doesn t exist within smaller communities.
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I ve been in plenty positions where something good happens to me, but something different that is also good happens to somebody else close to me, and I m like, I would trade my good thing for that other good thing, which is such an unhealthy way to, yeah, like you said, just be a human, not to mention putting that into any kind of creative effort and sharing that with people.
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I don t know if I want to say that it s unhealthy, and I m not trying to correct you
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or anything in that realm.
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But I think it s very actually healthy.
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I think you need to feel that if you re an empath and you re writing the songs that you re writing.
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I think you need to feel that to understand how to not feel that way.
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And there s lessons you can take from the pettiness that you feel at times within your life.
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And it s tough, it really is.
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And I m 47 years old, Claire, and it still happens for me.
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And each time it happens, I m either met with, now you have the tools to move on from that, or I m very disappointed in myself.
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And we punish ourselves, and we spend a lot of time anyways, as we do in shame, because we re maybe not what we re supposed to be, we do this too much, we re addicts, we do that, we feel too much, we have to dumb ourselves down to try to exist in some sort of social situation, but then at the same time, who are we to say that we have to dumb ourselves down?
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I think what s the most healthy thing you could do is just accept what you re feeling.
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This is all extremely comforting to hear.
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in my current position.
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So can we get to you?
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Because I d like to say I read an article about you yesterday in the Guardian.
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And the first thing I thought was, why the fuck did I never buy blackout curtains?
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What was I thinking?
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Because the way you described being depressed and just shutting your blackout curtains and staying in bed, I just thought, how did I miss that?
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I go into the bathtub, but blackout curtains, I don t think I ve ever owned a pair.
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So let s talk about it.
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You tell me what it s like.
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What it s like to live in my cave.
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It s wonderful.
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They protect you from the light, but also the heat and sound.
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But also, I mean, when you re depressed, you like, you know, you crave that, like, the womb.
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Yeah.
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And like, but also just like the cyclical, like,
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You re sad, so you do something that makes you feel better momentarily, but scientifically is proven to make you stay in that depressive cycle.
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I m like, well, blackout curtains and fucking a bottle of wine, it s like I can just exist in this space that doesn t feel real.
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I m like floating in time.
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I love it.
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Yeah, it s like there s no consequence, but there definitely is.
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Not in the moment though, so good for you for dissolving that one.
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Oh yeah, my vice is all in one small room on the east side of Los Angeles.
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It s really beautiful.
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Let s go deeper into the blackout curtains, if you don t mind.
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I know, not at all, yeah.
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Because obviously having depression in your life means you re alive and you re someone that feels things.
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I was reading this article and you were being very open about it, which is great because the conversations, as we know, are getting more and more alive in the realm of emotions and feelings.
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feelings and mental health and mental wellness to the point of where you could argue it s getting confusing or it s getting overused.
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But when it comes down to the individual just speaking about it, then it s real and it s truthful and it s there for people to take how they want.
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But for you, in doing this record, in doing this music, I found a lot of shadows in it.
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And I did write a quote.
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I don t know if you ever sent it to you.
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It sounds like the Ouija board of the evening.
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in the middle of the night.
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Now, tell me, just tell me about it.
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Tell me about what it is that you re feeling when you re feeling the blackout currents, the darkness, that feeling of, let s say, possible suicide to a certain degree.
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I mean, the way I approach life is usually in extremes.
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So I m like, I m very into something, I go 110% with it.
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So, you know, regardless
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I don t know, if it s music and I m feeling something with a very specific sound, I ll go in and only use those tools and make songs that sound a certain way and then just work in that until I m over with it.
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But then the blackout curtains are the same.
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I always go 110 percent into the blackout curtains.
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But I m usually feeling like I just want to, and it sounds,
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so extreme, but the 110 percent, I guess, is the most extreme you can go, regardless of what s actually causing that or if there s a trigger or a root cause for the depression.
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But I m like, what if I just stop doing everything I m doing?
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What if I just was done with trying to do the music thing, trying to do the relationship thing, trying to do the living in this city thing, or just wanting to change everything at once?
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with like the delusion that that would make things better.
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So usually it s like a combination of leaning into the bad feeling and then also like a longing for whatever the opposite of what my current circumstances are.
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Do you find your music to be like the blackout curtains for you?
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Sometimes, yeah.
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I lean into self-destruction more than the average individual, I think.
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Sometimes that s in a more private setting and sometimes it s more public.
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Not necessarily like I ve had any kind of
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major meltdown.
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Also, I m not any kind of public figure that if I did have a public meltdown, it would change really anything in my life, which I m fortunate for.
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But yeah, I think the music is kind of like the blackout curtains in a way.
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I definitely think all the feelings from that go into the music.
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And like i was saying earlier i m very open to people interpreting what i do how they want to interpret it so there s an openness to it even though it s kind of like a document or like a reflection of a private moment and you feel safe putting that out there or does that is that depending on.
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how you re received or where you re at on tour.
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Maybe there s 30 people, and then there s 200, and then there s 20.
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Is there things that you need from the outside world, which we all do.
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I m not trying to put you on blast here, but is there things right now as you re going back out there with this beautiful, vulnerable, spooky, shadowy, womb, sleeping bag of a record, where there s woundedness in there?
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Are you surrounded with some people that understand what you re doing and understand your highs and lows that are what you re going to live no matter what?
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Or are you alone out there?
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No, you got some good ones?
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I have some good ones.
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It s funny because I do typically travel alone and I have for probably five or six, basically since I wasn t, when I started doing things by myself, not in a band or anything.
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I mean, after whatever the tiniest period that was possible to not play shows with COVID and people locking things down, basically the second I was able to play shows, I started doing it again.
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But I was doing it alone.
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So this time,
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This time around, I have a few people playing with me and some people traveling with me, which is nice.
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I think one of the most beautiful parts about making music with other people is the things that happen outside of the stage or the recording process, like the human connection that you have.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m never going to make music with people that I can t also go to dinner with.
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I know.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m in broken social scene.
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SPEAKER_03
Those dinner bills are
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Some of the best meals and times and hangs I ve had is with my band throughout the world.
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SPEAKER_03
I m so privileged and lucky to have it happen.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hey, this is Josh Modell, host of the TalkHouse podcast.
2
SPEAKER_01
We love it when musicians come on the show and talk about process, and often they ll get into the nuts and bolts of being a working artist, which can sometimes be fun and sometimes feel more like a business.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, this episode of TalkHouse is brought to you by DistroKid, which is an amazing service for musicians looking to get their songs out into the world in an incredibly smart and cost-effective way.
2
SPEAKER_01
For the past decade plus, DistroKid has made it easy to get your music on all the streaming services, including Spotify, Apple Music, TikTok, Instagram, and more.
2
SPEAKER_01
You keep 100% of your earnings minus a flat yearly fee, which is a better deal than you ll find anywhere else.
2
SPEAKER_01
More than a million artists use DistroKid, and the latest version of their app is better than ever.
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SPEAKER_01
It includes features that make it easy to see your account details, including the money you ve earned, as well as to seamlessly edit things like lyrics and metadata across platforms.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s even a feature called Instant Share, which allows you to easily share files with your bandmates, booking agent, playlist curators, and more.
2
SPEAKER_01
DistroLock allows you to protect your songs.
2
SPEAKER_01
DistroKid users get a YouTube official artist channel, too.
2
SPEAKER_01
The list goes on.
2
SPEAKER_01
The DistroKid app is available on iOS and Android.
2
SPEAKER_01
Go check it out today.
2
SPEAKER_00
Seattle in the 90s.
2
SPEAKER_00
A tidal wave of iconic music roars out of this sleepy city and launches a pop culture revolution.
2
SPEAKER_00
Here s a story you haven t heard.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let the Kids Dance is a new podcast about the rise and fall of Seattle s teen dance ordinance.
2
SPEAKER_00
The law that made it illegal for young people to go to concerts.
2
SPEAKER_00
A story of moral panic, grassroots activism, and an unstoppable music community that fought for its freedom.
2
SPEAKER_00
Listen to Let the Kids Dance from KUOW and the NPR Network.
2
SPEAKER_03
Now, I want to switch gears on you and talk about Thrill Jockey because Thrill Jockey is one of, I think, the greatest record labels out there.
2
SPEAKER_03
For me, it was an extremely influential label and for a lot of us as well.
2
SPEAKER_03
Coming out of the gates and the fact that there was just this community of music in the 90s that we all flock to when you could read
2
SPEAKER_03
who the musicians were, who were playing what instruments, and then go and find.
2
SPEAKER_03
It was through Thrill Jockey that I found Drag City, that I found 4AD, that I found Cranky.
2
SPEAKER_03
Thrill Jockey was the church that led me to all the bungalows around it, and you are on that label.
2
SPEAKER_03
Tell me about that.
2
SPEAKER_02
It feels amazing because I ve looked up to the label for so long and so many of the people on on the label even like going back into the 90s and and like because that I mean at that point I was a child so I wasn t experiencing it as a you know somebody in the scene so like going back and reading about everything that was happening in the 90s through like
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I m a freak on the Internet.
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SPEAKER_02
I m not really good with technology, but I like digging things up.
2
SPEAKER_02
There s this book recently that came out that Brian, who started Cranky, did called You re Stupid, and there s a lot of Thrill Jockey stuff in there.
2
SPEAKER_02
But then going from that and finding more information on people who have published stuff and documented other things that were published in the 90s, reading about all the artists on the label, it s like they re rock stars.
2
SPEAKER_02
to me.
2
SPEAKER_02
So when Bettina hit me up to put out a record, it was like a cold call type situation.
2
SPEAKER_02
It was just an email saying that she was into what I was doing.
2
SPEAKER_02
And if I ever wanted to make a record or put out a record, she would be there for it.
2
SPEAKER_02
And however many records I wanted to do or if I wanted to do more than one thing, she d be down for it.
2
SPEAKER_02
I was kind of taken aback because I was like, oh, this label with all this history and all these people that changed
2
SPEAKER_02
are fucking with me right now.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m part of the equation now, which is really beautiful.
2
SPEAKER_02
But I don t know, it s funny that you found everybody through Thrill Jockey because I also found so much music as a starting place, going through that label and then, like you were saying, finding like Drag City and Cranky and all that.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that s such a world that I m like,
2
SPEAKER_02
I don t know like 90s independent label type shit is like a place I m stuck and I wasn t really part of it and I m like looking back on it like kind of on the outside but now I m inside that makes any sense.
2
SPEAKER_03
It makes sense because it feels like it s happening again.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I love that.
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, I want to say thank you, but Tina s never emailed me before.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I think if we did have an email exchange, it might have been around.
2
SPEAKER_03
We did this seven inch with seeing cake for a tour we were doing.
2
SPEAKER_03
But to get her to, I called three people after I got the email.
2
SPEAKER_03
Just email me.
2
SPEAKER_03
And because that s royalty to us, you know, to a lot of us.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I love to to sing people s praises because I don t hold back when it comes to that.
3
SPEAKER_00
and I don t care if it bothers the person, I m not uncomfortable about it, but I want people to know, especially as life carries on, and the judgment factor and the jukebox is constantly changing, and I think that you don t become forgotten,
3
SPEAKER_00
But I once had someone lovely tell me, don t worry about legacy.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you do sort of let go of what you ve done to move forward and move on with your life to keep creating the best things you re going to create.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think that there s a turning right now, like a little bit of a full circle to the 90s, which we were speaking about on the weekend.
3
SPEAKER_00
where there s just this form of music being created and a lot of it s coming from this experimental indie aspect because the majors and the corporations and the pop music is what s dominating right now more than ever.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s really where there s a good time for independent to come back.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I m excited and I think it s fantastic that you re on one of the labels that was spearheading that.
3
SPEAKER_01
At this point there s kind of like a little buzz in the indie underground experimental world where there s like people I know in like just like rock bands who ve done some touring but not like huge or anything like you know people are getting scooped up or getting offers or entertaining offers from majors.
3
SPEAKER_01
and I m like, what is that even?
3
SPEAKER_01
I thought that didn t exist anymore.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m really not part of that world and I m pretty new to everything industry related in general, but just reading about it happening in Chicago specifically in the 90s and then seeing it happen in real time now and seeing so many of the people to keep referencing what we say earlier, but the disappointment and jealousy and things like that from the outside and I m like, well,
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not really interested in that, but it is interesting just to kind of watch happen.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because I do also think that there s so much interesting music being made right now.
3
SPEAKER_00
What I witness in the mainstream, which is sort of, the people who are running the show are sort of, they re turning their backs on artists to a certain degree, because we know that youth is where the dream begins, but so much of what they focus on is the moment, and what s hot in the moment, and they still don t seem to understand that the moment doesn t last forever.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s the truth and the authenticity that lasts forever.
3
SPEAKER_00
But you then find yourself in a conversation about, well, you ll be celebrated at some time in your life, and all that s just bullshit to me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think you re here to affect people to the strongest ability that you can.
3
SPEAKER_00
whether you want to and do the work for that is up to you.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I do believe that there s great music out there that still needs to be found, heard, listened to, discovered.
3
SPEAKER_00
There is an identity crisis that we re having everywhere we turn, and that is something that music can help with.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yet, it s been so diminished through the art of social media and streaming and all these things that we lose ourselves and we do lose our identities and we do find that when art is not
3
SPEAKER_00
helping us through humanity in our social circles of community, then we do start turning on each other.
3
SPEAKER_00
I do believe that the resurgence is coming, and I think that you are a part of that.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s funny how music can be the thing that is the start of all these amazing feelings, but also can be, I guess, like it s this cycle of you get really into it because it s music and then you get so focused on these other things.
3
SPEAKER_01
these things aren t necessarily in, you know, have anything to do with the music.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then you get focused on those things.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then that s kind of where all the negativity creeps in.
3
SPEAKER_00
What s the negativity?
3
SPEAKER_00
Not saying I, of course, I know what the negativity I know that darkness sits in the corner waiting for you to show any signs of insecurity to show up and start partying with you.
3
SPEAKER_00
But what s the negativity that you keep speaking of in this interview?
3
SPEAKER_01
I guess there s multiple forms of it, I think.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, just the expectation to do well or do something to meet somebody else s expectations, even if they maybe aren t your own.
3
SPEAKER_01
Also, the goalpost is always moving, so your own expectations.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re like, well, if I do this one thing, then my life will change in this way, and then I ll get to do this other thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s like, was this what you were thinking of when you were making the music?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because it doesn t seem like it, because the music s pretty good.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, these are all those things I m thinking to myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, oh, if I get the...
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know, sell this many records, then I won t be in debt to somebody else. 
3
SPEAKER_01
Fortunately, that worry has gone away, and that s no longer an issue right now, which is good.
3
SPEAKER_01
Then I m like, hopefully, once I go on tour, we do a run of shows at these venues with these capacities, and hopefully that does well.
3
SPEAKER_01
If that does go well,
3
SPEAKER_01
maybe there will be even more interest and then maybe more people will come the next time we ll get to do a larger capacity it s like still play the same music pretty much but it s like i don t understand why i m like oh yeah like everything has to constantly be growing so i guess this this darkness this negativity is maybe like the uh the growth potential uh for
3
SPEAKER_01
or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_00
It sounds very healthy to me.
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you just, and this is unsolicited advice as well to the listeners, and I m trying to tell you how to think, but a lot of the times we create stories for ourselves and conversations for ourselves that we forget that that just sounds like you wanna do well with your career, which I would hope that you do, and it s smart to think that way.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s smart to, but at the same time,
3
SPEAKER_00
I ve heard this just recently, expectations go away when you just be yourself and accept who you are.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s just also, that s a full-time job sometimes, to be yourself and accept who you are.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s always gonna be that conundrum, but what you re speaking of to me is, that s very healthy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Look, a lot of the successful people I know lost sleep worrying about capacity and numbers, and it worked for them.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s amazing how we get taught not to strive, not to strive for not necessarily more, but for what you feel you can achieve.
3
SPEAKER_00
I recently did this solo tour, and I m in the middle of doing this solo tour, and I ve been around for quite some time now.
3
SPEAKER_00
A lot of the times I show up, it s basically 60 to 150 people.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, obviously, if I m at
3
SPEAKER_00
50 cap room, it s sold out.
3
SPEAKER_00
But when you travel to a 400 capacity and 87 people show up, you ve got to check yourself before you wreck yourself.
3
SPEAKER_00
And what was really becoming apparent to me on some of these shows was this was the show.
3
SPEAKER_00
The show was not for 400 people.
3
SPEAKER_00
The show was for 100 people or less.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s what I was doing.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was very, very intimate.
3
SPEAKER_00
My mother had passed away in July.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m going out on the road and I m honoring her and I m honoring my friends because I have a bunch now that have died.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I m honoring those people in the room to bring forth their loss in this little circle that we have.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it wouldn t have occurred to me that that was my show through ego, because obviously ego was telling me where the fuck is everybody.
3
SPEAKER_00
I put in my time.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ve done this.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ve done that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Why are my friends playing Massey Hall?
3
SPEAKER_00
And I m in a fucking basement in Ottawa.
3
SPEAKER_00
But Ottawa is a beautiful show.
3
SPEAKER_00
and I had to adjust what my personal expectations were for what I was doing on this tour.
3
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t social scene, it wasn t as if suddenly that all crumbled and fell apart, but it s always there to fall apart and crumble, and it s always there to actually take off and gather more.
3
SPEAKER_00
But once I accepted what I was doing, I really enjoyed myself and I don t know why I went on this huge tangent.
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe I wanted to hear myself talk, which I m guilty of.
3
SPEAKER_00
No.
3
SPEAKER_00
Claire, what I m trying to say is that the things that you just spoke about, those are healthy things, and I would just stress to you that maybe a lot of the times we get told not to strive for more because it s something bad or expectations are bad, but if you manage them like you manage brushing your teeth, it s just the same thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Take care of yourself.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that is a very welcome tangent, but not really a tangent.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was pretty on the nose.
3
SPEAKER_01
These are all things I m thinking about, but that s very good to hear.
3
SPEAKER_01
You need to check yourself depending on where you are.
3
SPEAKER_01
I guess I also feel so much guilt feeling like I deserve anything, which is my own issue.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I think you re taught also to ask for as little as possible or expect very little.
3
SPEAKER_01
something really huge happens overnight, that s how it works, which is not the case.
3
SPEAKER_01
I also am really proud of a lot of the work.
3
SPEAKER_01
I haven t been at it nearly as long as other people, but I feel like I got in the van when I was 15 to go on a DIY tour and it never stopped.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I m like, okay.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so you know when things go well it s like well maybe it was like the 15 years of hard work but you know it also could just be luck or the Spotify magic or something like that but I m like
4
SPEAKER_03
I m not a really nosy person, so tell me if this is too much, but I m really interested in schedules and people s day-to-day lives.
4
SPEAKER_03
I m not going to shy away, like you were saying earlier, from telling people that I admire what they do.
4
SPEAKER_03
You re very much a person that I admire what you do and the things that you ve done.
4
SPEAKER_02
Do you have a daily routine, any rituals that you do?
4
SPEAKER_02
Do you do the same thing most days?
4
SPEAKER_01
I m just curious.
4
SPEAKER_01
If you were to talk to me last weekend, that s why I was excited to do this this week because I did go down and it happens.
4
SPEAKER_01
But my blackout curtains is the bathtub and anyone could tell you that.
4
SPEAKER_01
I spent a lot of time in the bath, my place where I try to go and find that peace.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m very much an addict from hummus to I quit smoking, I quit drinking, I drank, I drank, I quit, I drank.
4
SPEAKER_01
I realized that I just love love, and I love the smiles, and the high fives, and obviously balancing that out as you get older is a fine art.
4
SPEAKER_01
But my day-to-day ritual is usually talking with people because I really do believe you ve got to have some good people to talk to every day to balance your reflection.
4
SPEAKER_01
Then I try to take baths,
4
SPEAKER_01
I just try to do something creative for about two hours a day, whether it s writing, painting, poetry, writing music, or sculpturing out things, taking photos, going for walks, and planning the things that you want to do differently.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s a lot of business because I ve come back into it to protect the band.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think we have a really good team right now.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I took some time off about six years to just let them go and do everything.
4
SPEAKER_01
But now I ve realized, no, I m good, I m strong.
4
SPEAKER_01
And to the element of what you were saying before, I want to see us shine.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I know that sometimes that s like going into the playground and saying, no, the slide is mine for the next 10 minutes.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I m not usually that person, and I was never a competitive person, and I held the door for a lot of people and things in my life over this time.
4
SPEAKER_01
But right now, I feel a sense of pride towards this band being around as long as it has, and I feel a sense of pride in terms of the life that I ve lived that could be judged by the outside.
4
SPEAKER_01
It has been for the last 25 years that I ve been around.
4
SPEAKER_01
So once my mother died, Claire, I started to say, OK, it s not that I don t give a fuck because I truly believe in responsibility.
4
SPEAKER_01
But there s something now with her on the other side that has given me a power where I m not really into the bullshit and I m not into the falsehood of
4
SPEAKER_01
preconceived Velcro authenticity.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I see what s being celebrated in this world.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I see what s happening to those who are hurting in this world.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s going to take people to bring us back.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s where I m at.
4
SPEAKER_01
So my rituals right now are trying not to feel the pain of everyone, and certainly never feeling nothing to quote Dinosaur Jr.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s always you feel the pain of everyone, and then you feel too much.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
So balance is something that I don t skate pretty uncoordinated when it comes to skates, but I m sharpening up the skates to figure out how to do that Joni Mitchell river and be responsible to the idea of there s health, there s friendship, and there s family and everything else.
4
SPEAKER_01
You have to make work within those three things and it s difficult.
4
SPEAKER_03
It really is.
4
SPEAKER_03
No, that s really beautiful.
4
SPEAKER_03
I know you ve mentioned your mother a few times, and I m sorry that I ve lost people in my life as well, but nothing that close to home.
4
SPEAKER_03
So I m really sorry for your loss, but also seems like you re like,
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
4
SPEAKER_01
We were good.
4
SPEAKER_01
We were good.
4
SPEAKER_01
My mom and I, we were good.
4
SPEAKER_01
And my family s been very, my brother, my dad, you know, everyone s doing their own thing now and their own way of grieving.
4
SPEAKER_01
And we all understand that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And also, they ve been really sweet and supportive to let me go publicly out there honoring my mom as well.
4
SPEAKER_01
Obviously, she has a son, who s my brother, Cameron.
4
SPEAKER_01
And obviously, she was married for 56 years to my father.
4
SPEAKER_01
So but no, we were good.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I try to I just try
4
SPEAKER_01
to tell people get straight with your parents get good with your folks obviously if you have the opportunity to there s pain everyone is a victim of a victim there s a shit ton of history and trauma and all that runs through families but if you can if you can just get to a place with them the the therapy bills are
4
SPEAKER_01
are way cheaper, and the guilt that we all are born with, whether we re privileged or not, and obviously some way more than others.
4
SPEAKER_01
And we re not going to go down the road of that, but I do need to take a second to honor those who
4
SPEAKER_01
have hundreds of years of fucking trauma.
4
SPEAKER_01
But it s just the idea of everybody just wants to be loved, Claire.
4
SPEAKER_01
They just want to feel loved.
4
SPEAKER_01
When you see all this hatred out there and all this fucking disgustingness, people just not getting love.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s pretty fucking simple.
4
SPEAKER_01
Unfortunately, it s simple, but it s not a simple matter at all to fix this planet that we live on with everybody so angry.
4
SPEAKER_01
Not one person s job either, I assume.
4
SPEAKER_01
No, no, no.
4
SPEAKER_01
Except Jared Leto.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
What s his band s name again?
4
SPEAKER_01
I just remembered watching a trailer to one of his films.
4
SPEAKER_01
Don t you want to save the world?
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t think it s you, but I fucking really, really admire your enthusiasm.
4
SPEAKER_01
Go make that record.
4
SPEAKER_01
30 Seconds to Mars, baby.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yes, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
I just bring that up because I saw him jump.
4
SPEAKER_01
Somebody showed me a clip, I think, of him jumping.
4
SPEAKER_03
Oh, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
What the hell is that?
4
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, like suspended.
4
SPEAKER_03
Is that your next?
4
SPEAKER_03
That s what I m striving for.
4
SPEAKER_02
That s what I m saying, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
You did your 50 cap, and now you re going for your 50,000 cap.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know what?
4
SPEAKER_01
It s all the same feeling.
4
SPEAKER_01
Isn t that crazy?
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve done that.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve done both numbers, and it s the same feeling.
4
SPEAKER_02
That is insane.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s quite bizarre.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Quite bizarre.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, do you want to end it there, I guess?
4
SPEAKER_01
If you feel comfortable, I mean I feel like we re now gonna move on with our lives and I ve got your number and you ve got my number and this is the start of a beautiful relationship.
4
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, thanks for being down to do this.
4
SPEAKER_03
Hopefully it was
4
SPEAKER_03
rewarding for you in some way?
4
SPEAKER_01
It was rewarding before I got on the call.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that was kind of what I was trying to express to you.
4
SPEAKER_01
I appreciate artists and I appreciate honesty.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s what you have in your in your back pocket.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I understand
4
SPEAKER_01
when I read all about you, I thought, yeah, I have an understanding of how you go through life with the highs and the lows.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s no middle sometimes for us, and that s the hardest part about doing it.
4
SPEAKER_01
But as long as you remember that, and it took me such a long time to remember that the suicide feeling that comes around when it does is because you are supposed to kill that part of yourself that s driving you to the point of feeling that way.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s such a bizarre thing to not think of it that way.
4
SPEAKER_01
All right, this has been lovely.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m actually going to call you right back afterwards.
4
SPEAKER_01
I want to ask you a question, but I ll do it off the I want to ask you about a show that maybe you can come to but I ll do that.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_03
Okay, I ll talk to you.
4
SPEAKER_03
All right.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I ll talk to you in a sec.
4
SPEAKER_01
Let s end this.
4
SPEAKER_01
Bye.
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Thanks for listening to the TalkHouse podcast and thanks to Claire Rousey and Kevin Drew for chatting.
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If you liked what you heard, please follow TalkHouse on your favorite podcasting platform and check out all the goodness at TalkHouse.com.
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This episode was produced by Myron Kaplan and the TalkHouse theme is composed and performed by The Range.
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See you next time.