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I would not consider myself to be a friendship expert.
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In fact, I feel like nobody is, except for who we re about to talk to today, but who we are as a friend is so unique to us as individuals and what we look for in friends is so different depending on, I don t know, who we are and what we re
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looking for in a friend.
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And so that s why I m very excited to talk to a friendship expert today, Danielle Byard Jackson.
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She is a friendship coach who speaks nationally on the subject of female friendships.
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Through her work, Danielle teaches women how to make and maintain better friendships through research-based methodology.
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She s studied the ins and the outs of female friendships, which are particularly complicated, I would say.
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In fact, I made an episode a while back about female friendships from a very personal lens, which was maybe a mistake because I
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mainly focused on the challenges of female friendships.
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And I think I was speaking from a place of immature female friendships.
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I was 19 or 20 when I recorded this episode.
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And to be fair, majority of my female friendships had occurred in middle school and high school and talk about a turbulent time.
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where everybody s insecure, nobody knows who they are, I think the worst of female friendships come out there.
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And that was mainly my experience.
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Since then, at a rapid pace, I think I ve experienced more and more beautiful female friendships.
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And so my opinion has definitely shifted on what
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female friendships are.
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All this to say, we have a very phenomenal guest coming on today who is an expert in female friendships.
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And she is going to answer even more of my questions that I have about friendship.
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Because I think friendship is often overlooked as something that just comes naturally to us.
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We re humans.
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We all have friends.
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This is just what we do as humans.
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But friendship is a huge piece of our foundation in life.
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digging in and analyzing it never heard anyone.
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So that s why I m so excited to talk to Danielle Byard Jackson today because she is going to speak the truth.
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If you love this episode and you want more, go check out the friend forward podcast as well as the friend forward website.
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So if you want to see more from Danielle, you know where to find her.
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Were you,
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social as a kid like did you have a lot of friends as a kid?
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I did as a young girl yes and then I feel like with like most people getting into high school you re kind of like finding your way again who you want to be so that was an interesting experience.
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Yeah like you had your your fair share of friendship ups and downs as we all have.
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Yes.
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Do you feel like the ups and downs
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led you to, I don t know, develop a deeper interest around friendship?
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Like how did you
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find a career in friendship?
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Yeah, no, it s funny because I think a lot of people think, oh, if I ve made a career of friendship, I must be the girl who just had great friendships.
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Yeah.
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And I m just trying to give some tips.
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Yeah.
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But I say that I think that I am able to add value in this space because I know what it s like to get friendship wrong, you know?
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Sure.
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And I actually, I started as a high school teacher.
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And I was teaching 12th graders.
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And it s the number one thing they wanted to talk about during class is friendship drama.
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And then I became the academic chair of the department and the teachers, whenever we had staff meetings, we all were talking about how to help kids navigate stuff because there was drama in the classroom.
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And then I left the classroom and I got into public relations and I found myself working with these high achieving, charismatic boss women.
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And it wasn t long before I realized, oh, they have privately friendship issues too.
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They have no shortage of social connections, but they feel deeply unsatisfied with the friendships that they have.
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And so for the past six years, I ve leveraged my background in education to study what the research has to say about women s cooperation, communication, and conflict.
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What would you say your biggest friendship challenge was throughout your life?
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Like, what was a reoccurring challenge?
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I think trying to be somebody you re not, which doesn t really go away, like when I was working with teenagers or adults, trying to be someone you re not because you want to belong, you want to impress, but inevitably it leads to you being wildly unsatisfied, tired because you re performing and inauthentic.
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And so I think that s something we all have to kind of grow into, getting comfortable in our own skin.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, I think the thing is, too, like, friendship is something that s so ingrained in human beings that it s almost overlooked, I think, as an important topic to focus on.
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I don t know.
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I ve, in the past, like, focused more on romantic relationships, for example.
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Like, I m
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going to people and asking for advice about romantic relationships left and right, but with friendship, I sort of overlook it because they feel less significant.
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Why do you think friendship is so important?
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Yeah, for a lot of reasons.
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But I will say that what you re feeling is totally supported by the research.
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The longest running study on happiness came out of Harvard.
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And for more than 80 years, they followed people wondering, like, what makes us happy?
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And they found that the number one thing that contributes to our overall life satisfaction and well-being is the quality of our relationships.
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That s it.
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Not your income, not whether or not you re married.
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The quality of your relationships.
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And, you know, I know that we tend to put romance and like in the forefront, but I would argue that friendship is at the heart of romance as well because it starts there.
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If you can t be my friend, you know, when you strip it all down, what are we doing?
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And so, yeah, so we need people who offer social support and they, you know, they give us direction and feedback and help us grow.
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You grow and you heal.
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in community.
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And so I know we live at a time and a culture where we champion individualism, but, you know, all the growth that you really need to happen, all the joy that you can achieve and experience, it really comes through community.
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Yeah.
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What do you think makes a good friend?
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Like, simply put, what is a good friend?
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People define that differently, but I would say at the end of the day, somebody who makes you feel safe, seen and supported is probably somebody you re considering a really good friend.
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Like I think a lot of times we find ourselves in friendships or even groups of friends that are not serving us.
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But it happens sort of mysteriously, like you end up in a group or you end up with a best friend even and
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you start to realize, okay, wait a minute, how did I even get here, and is this even good for me?
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Like, how often should we be analyzing our friendships, and how do you manage figuring that out?
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Yeah, that s a great question, because sometimes you do get on autopilot, and you re just so used to each other, and it feels very safe, but I m learning that there s a difference between safe and healthy.
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And so I think it s great to do an inventory every now and then, the same way one might in your romantic relationship, where you re like, okay,
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What is my friendship landscape looking like?
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And also, I mean, the expectation thing is real because the research shows that women tend to have higher expectations in their close relationships, both in romantic and platonic.
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So really look at your expectations.
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What is it you want?
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What is it you want, like, for your personal trajectory?
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What experience do you want from friendship?
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And what, like, when you kind of look at each of your friends individually, does it measure up to what you say you value and what you say you want?
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Because a lot of times, to your point, I might have friends in my life who, you know, we ve been together forever and, you know,
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it feels risky to end this and like looking at, I love this person and she means well to me, but you know, when I look at what I ve got going on, it s no longer a fit and that s okay.
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As a matter of fact, the research tells us that we replace half of our friends every seven years.
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So to some degree you have to expect a natural pruning to happen in your friendships and it s deeply uncomfortable, but you know, but it happens.
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That actually leads me to my next question perfectly.
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I have always, like, my friendships throughout my life have come and gone very seamlessly, weirdly.
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I think a lot of times people maybe look at friendships that come and go as like, someone s a problem here.
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Yeah.
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But when I look at, say, my own situation, I m like, we just grew out of each other every single time.
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So I guess my question is, how many of our friendships should we be retaining?
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Because I think there s sort of this moral dilemma of like, oh, wow, I ve shed a lot of friends throughout my life.
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I don t regret it.
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I feel good about it.
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Like, I ve moved on to, you know, people who fit me better in the present moment.
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But is there something wrong with that?
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Like, should I be retaining more of my friendships throughout my life?
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Like, what s happening there?
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So I m curious, like, your take.
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Yeah, so whenever women bring me that issue, I mostly work with women, and they bring me that issue, I m always curious about it.
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why, to see if we can identify themes between the last like five relationships you released.
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I m always curious about that because people get different answers.
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They might say, I just realized I began to get deeply uncomfortable with that relationship as I grew.
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It felt like it was compromising.
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Okay, that makes sense.
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But sometimes I hear people say, you know, she just started to, you know, bother me or she started to do this and I didn t like that.
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And I think it s a, you have to look inside and ask yourself when
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there are things that bring tension to the relationship.
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Do I want to leave because I m so uncomfortable with conflict that I start to tell myself like this is run its course but in reality I don t know how to have hard conversations or I don t know how to you know so some people that s that s their theme of the friendships ending is the person does something I don t like
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okay, do you have a critic s mindset where you have a group of friends, but if people start to do things you don t like, you re looking for that.
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And when they have these elusive violations, you release them.
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But everyone s different.
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So I would say, look at your last five friendships that faded out or that you found yourself saying, I think I m over this.
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And I just be curious about the why and what themes emerge when you kind of track those last five friendships.
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What s going on there?
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I think that s something to look at.
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But I also say that,
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I feel like friendships ending feels deeply shameful for some women.
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It feels like a failure.
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Yeah.
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I worked with a young lady recently and she said, I just, you know, she was telling me all these things she was trying to do to get this friend back.
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And she s like, OK, I messed up, but she won t talk to me.
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And she s telling me all these extravagant things she s doing.
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And I was like, OK, you re doing a lot like you re being really intentional.
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What s going on?
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And she kind of just sighed and her shoulders dropped.
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And she said,
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I just can t have another friendship end.
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And I m just like, and what would that mean for you?
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Like, what would it mean if this was over?
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What would it say about you?
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And I think a lot of us think it would say, I m a bad friend.
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I m not good at this.
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I m not likable that people won t stay with me.
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I m not lovable or interesting enough.
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And so, you know, uh, you know, the last thing I ll say here is when it comes to the longevity of a friendship,
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I see a lot of people brag about, you know, we ve been friends 20 years, and I do think that s amazing.
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I have some of those.
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There s something really beautiful about having people who have seen you evolve, right?
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But if you measure success of any relationship
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by its longevity, that might have other issues.
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I ve seen people endure mistreatment because they re like, well, we ve been friends for 20 years.
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What would it say if I left?
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We ve been friends for 20, okay.
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So thinking about how do you measure success of a friendship?
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And if it s mostly by longevity, I think that can be detrimental.
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I agree.
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I ve noticed that in my life.
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Like there are friends that I ve had for
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ten years, like whatever, and you know, not necessarily as close or as like vivid as it once was, but it s like, I don t know, like there s something special there, but it doesn t actually measure the quality of the friendship at all.
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Because there s people that I ve met within the last five years who I have a better friendship with than I ever have in my whole life.
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So it s very interesting how that is.
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When it comes to ending a friendship,
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What s the smoothest way to do that?
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Because I found that in the past, I tend to take a really sort of like all at once.
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Like it s slow and then all at once and I m kind of gone.
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I m still there, but I m kind of gone, you know?
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And now I m thinking about it, I am sort of avoiding a larger conversation, right?
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Because I think I m afraid of maybe bringing up
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The fact that I don t want to be friends anymore.
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I don t want to make that person feel bad.
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I don t want to.
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So I leave them wondering and they never know.
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Yeah.
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And like that doesn t feel the smoothest because it doesn t leave them feeling resolved.
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And I m aware of that.
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But then on the other hand.
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I ve also found that when I have tried to bring it up and be like, I don t think that our friendship s working anymore, I ve been met with a lot of pushback and a lot of anger, way more anger.
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So it s like, what do we do here?
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Because it s handled differently than a breakup where there s like this huge conversation.
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It s not like you ghost your partner of four years.
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I mean, I guess people do that probably sometimes.
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My God, who is that?
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But yeah, how do you healthily end a friendship?
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with the least amount of anger.
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I don t even know if there s an answer.
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That is a complicated one.
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OK.
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So a lot of it s largely circumstantial.
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So it depends like, OK, why am I ending it?
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Does this person know?
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Do they not?
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Was it something egregious?
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Or did I just have an aha moment of like, I don t know if I want to keep investing time?
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And a lot of different reasons, right?
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So the first thing I ll say is a lot of friendships end by fading out.
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I don t think there s necessarily anything wrong with that.
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If I m realizing like, I m not as into it and you are too, and we re like kind of calling a little less.
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It happens, I think, more than we give credit for where things just, or I m committing to other certain things in my life.
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And so we invest less time.
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And before you know it, I haven t seen her in seven months.
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So it happens all the time.
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There s nothing wrong with that at all.
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Friendships themselves are largely circumstantial.
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We re in the same space or we re doing this project together.
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So we re in each other s, you know, vicinities.
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A lot of things happen personally.
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I think a conversation needs to happen when there s a discrepancy between our expectations.
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So if both people kind of notice the fade out, and we re doing it because we re trying to spare the other person s feelings, and it doesn t feel like it requires a formal sit down, that s one thing.
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But as soon as I want out, yet she expects to maintain the status quo, there s a gap here.
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And so I have to ask myself, okay, do I want to keep dodging calls?
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Do I want to be dishonest about what I m doing?
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Do I want to, like, what amount of anxiety is this causing me to, like, keep dodging her and this and that?
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And to what degree does it begin to feel like she s being let on?
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You know, she s not getting the hint and she s like, hey, let s hang out or hey, I bought you a ticket for the concert.
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I can t wait.
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As soon as there s a gap, I have to ask myself, okay,
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Do I need to give her the courtesy of letting her in on what s going on so that she can make decisions around what she wants to do for her life?
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But I ve equipped her with the data that she needs to make that decision.
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So that might look like, and I know this is like, I know this is hard, but if somebody is continually pursuing, they re not really getting the hints that I m starting to withdraw.
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I feel like you have to have that conversation as close to in-person as possible.
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Yep.
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Just so people can catch like your tone and stuff like that and not be like, oh, that was cold.
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Yeah.
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you want to do it as warmly as possible.
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Cause I know people tend to lean into like that HR language where they re like, you know, I just don t have the capacity for this relationship right now.
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And I understand that that feels very like safe to, you know, cause you re distancing yourself.
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So you re being really formal, but it can feel cold and sterile to a person who was just like holding your hair back in the bathroom last weekend.
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And now you re talking to me like a parole officer.
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It s incongruent with the history of our relationship.
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So it can feel disrespectful.
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So it s really hard, but you would just say, Hey, I ve been thinking a lot lately and, um, I m prioritizing X, Y, Z right now.
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And I don t think that s going to let me maintain this friendship the way that I was before.
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And I m so sorry, but I just, I felt like I owed that to you.
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Yeah.
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And here s the thing you asked, you said, well, how do we do that without them being angry?
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There s no guarantee they won t be angry.
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There s no guarantee they won t misunderstand you or go and tell a different narrative to your mutual friends.
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There is no guarantee.
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And so everyone has to kind of weigh what feels appropriate, dignified, the best thing for me to do that I can stand by with integrity and say, hey, I was fair, I was honest, and that s just what it is.
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But it s tough.
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But I just know if I were on the other end, if I had any woman in my life, and she started to feel like, kind of over Danielle, I wouldn t want her doing me any favors.
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Like, let me know it s gonna sting, but let me live my life.
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to dig into female friendships, because I actually made an episode once on female friendships that was very controversial, because I talked about the challenges in a way that was very, like, unfiltered, in a way, because, and I think that it was biased in the sense that it was based on my experience and what I had experienced in life thus far, but it was, you know, it was mainly focusing on the challenges that come with female friendship, mainly being
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the competitive element.
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And it s kind of going away as I m getting older, as I m entering my mid-twenties.
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Like, it s definitely fading a lot, which is gorgeous.
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Wow.
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Gorgeous.
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Because in middle school, for example, I mean, I think- Sure.
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Ruthless.
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Sure.
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I think that that s probably why the episode was so controversial because, you know, I m 22.
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And at the time I made that episode, I was probably 20.
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It was like, what I was mainly referring to was,
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my younger female friendships, which were far more challenging.
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It s just a much more turbulent time.
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But I still do feel like there is, at times, much less, again, much less now that I m older, but the cattiness doesn t necessarily go away.
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It was sort of controversial that I was mentioning the cattiness.
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I was mentioning the backstabbingness.
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I was mentioning the competitiveness.
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And I don t think I m crazy for that.
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I feel like that exists.
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Would you say that that is a real challenge?
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Or is that something that we ve been taught in movies and it s not real?
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So here s the thing.
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Whenever I walk into a room in the subject of
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female friendship comes up, I always say that you have two different groups.
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You have people who start to say, oh, I love my girls.
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My girls are my everything.
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They are magic.
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They are my princesses.
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And you have a group that s like, oh my God, I cannot with the drama, with the pettiness.
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And the thing is, both are true.
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And it does not speak to the range of our humanity to tell one story.
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The story is that it s both.
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And I know because I embody both.
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I have had friendships that I m Ms.
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Grill, your cheerleader, and all the things.
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And I have been a friend who was jealous and unsure and insecure.
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And all of our experiences are different.
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So depending on whatever, a multitude of factors, maybe you had a great experience in middle school.
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I mean, I don t know many women who did.
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So we re bringing those experiences.
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Surely, it s coloring our overall
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you know, feel of women s friendships.
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About the competition that sometimes exists, I like to start by saying being competitive is not exclusive to women.
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Absolutely not.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I think the reason it sometimes feels so sinister is because oftentimes there s not room for us to outwardly
2
SPEAKER_00
compete and aggress and disagree the way that men have the same room.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I feel like the ways that we kind of hit at each other, they live underground because we have more social consequences if we loudly say, oh, I don t like that or push back or question.
2
SPEAKER_00
We have more consequences just culturally, I think like from the society.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so, you know, the term for that is relational aggression.
2
SPEAKER_00
I call it sophisticated stealth, but where you feel like, okay, was she being nasty or was she just,
2
SPEAKER_00
because it has to live underground.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so the best, the girls who do it the best, mean girls, or, you know, there s different terms for that, but the ones who do it the best can strike you in a very covert way because we know that being outwardly mean holds social consequences for us, so I don t want to look like the mean girl.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I m going to do little things that are like, oh, okay, that s a cute outfit.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s different.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, oh wow, you guys are dating?
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
No, that s awesome.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just, I didn t think you were like mainly his type, but I love that for you.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_00
That way it has to be stealthy so that if we re ever confronted about it publicly, you can deny it and be like, oh my gosh, I didn t mean it like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was complimenting her.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it s like this little language.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I ll just say, you know, female friendships are complicated, but
2
SPEAKER_00
And I put this in my book, but I one day looked up the word complicated.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was just curious.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it said the intersection of many parts.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I believe that s why female friendships are so complicated.
2
SPEAKER_00
For men, I know I m generalizing here, but it s also rooted in the research and supported by the evidence, but they tend to compartmentalize friendship and they do not have friendships that are as platonically intimate the way that we do.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s because we bring so much of ourselves.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m looking for you to be my emotional support, and I m looking for you to do all the things in my life and satisfy a lot of different things.
2
SPEAKER_00
I want you to be my person I socialize with, and I want you to do all the things.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so by definition, it is more complicated.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I just think that, you know, I know this sounds really fluffy, but to sum it all up, I feel like the more secure and comfortable you get in your own skin, you have less of that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I know people hear that all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s so real.
2
SPEAKER_00
The more you feel good in your own skin, you will notice it starts to attract
2
SPEAKER_00
healthy friendships.
2
SPEAKER_00
Totally.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it s just I mean, I think it s a growth thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
But but I will validate.
2
SPEAKER_00
I see what you see.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s totally a thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s so wild.
2
SPEAKER_01
I do think, though, what s been promising is like.
2
SPEAKER_01
The older I get, I can t tell if it s like the older I get,
2
SPEAKER_01
the easier it is to avoid because I m not in a school environment.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s something to be said for being in a confined environment and have only that community to choose from, in a way, like when you re at school.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s why I think school friendships are so challenging is because you re stuck
2
SPEAKER_01
with this certain group of people.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then beyond that, you re in a really insecure time of life.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I think that s just, that s a whole nightmare of its own.
2
SPEAKER_00
I totally agree.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I ve still noticed even now, like as an adult in more of maybe the workspace, I have a very bizarre workspace, but there still is a community, there are peers.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I ve found it s very challenging for me to find female friendships that feel
2
SPEAKER_01
genuine and not maybe competitive in a way or like, you know, I still struggle with that in some ways, but it s easier to avoid.
2
SPEAKER_01
So then it doesn t really like matter as much.
2
SPEAKER_01
But you sort of spoke a little bit about earlier, like women who maybe
2
SPEAKER_01
are hard workers, and they re getting their shit done, and they re maybe really successful on the outside.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you mentioned that maybe they have more challenges in some ways finding meaningful female friendships.
2
SPEAKER_01
Why do you think that is, and how does one combat that?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, I always joke that if you were to overhear somebody saying that they re working with a friendship coach, you d be like, OK, you re probably socially awkward.
2
SPEAKER_00
About 75% of the women I work with are business owners, entrepreneurs, tons of Instagram followers, all the things you would never know.
2
SPEAKER_00
But it s because they are deeply unsatisfied with their friendship landscape.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it looks like a couple of things.
2
SPEAKER_00
One is a lot of times high achieving women, I mean, you re driven by achievement.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I ve noticed them enter into new potential friendships, but they re leading with accomplishments.
2
SPEAKER_00
So they re leading with, well, what do you do?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, what do you do?
2
SPEAKER_00
So from the beginning, it sets the trajectory of this friendship and being kind of a professional transactional thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I m calling you friend.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m using that label, but deep down, if I were honest with myself, this is kind of like a business thing or like an upward mobility thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s why I keep you around, but I m calling you friend.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
Um, another reason why they suffer is because if you pride yourself on self-sufficiency, like I m a boss, I don t need help.
2
SPEAKER_00
You do not seek the support that you need.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s one of the advantages of friendship.
2
SPEAKER_00
You have people to help you through.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if you feel like it makes you look weak, you do not ask for the support that you need.
2
SPEAKER_00
So they ll tell me, I don t feel like my friends really see me.
2
SPEAKER_00
They don t really know me.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, what is that?
2
SPEAKER_00
At some point, I have to ask, why is there a performance?
2
SPEAKER_00
Why can t you allow yourself to soften and say,
2
SPEAKER_00
I need help, like I m struggling.
2
SPEAKER_00
What is that about?
2
SPEAKER_00
But for high achieving women in highly visible, powerful spaces, a lot of them feel they don t have the safety or the space to do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then the last thing I ve noticed too is that sometimes our jobs take up so much of our world that we don t know what else we have to offer.
2
SPEAKER_00
as a person.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Outside of that.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you don t make friends.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everything s got the business context because you don t make time for friendship.
2
SPEAKER_00
You don t show up outside of being a conqueror, a professional conqueror.
2
SPEAKER_00
So people don t know anything but that side of you, which, again, leads to feeling deeply unknown and by extension, unsatisfied.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you think for somebody who maybe is very business minded, it makes sense to sort of set
2
SPEAKER_01
time for friendship, most people end up, whether it s with school or work or whatever, if you re going to be succeeding in those things, it s really hard to have a social life.
2
SPEAKER_01
In times when I m more socially fulfilled and I m having more fun, I m not getting shit done.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s very hard.
2
SPEAKER_01
But then when
2
SPEAKER_01
I m getting so much done, I haven t seen my friends in two months.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, how important is it to figure out that work, social life balance, and what are your tips for people on that?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so I totally understand being in a season where you re like, okay, I m trying to like
2
SPEAKER_00
crush all these things that are happening this month is busy for me.
2
SPEAKER_00
So naturally it s going to impact the hours I can dedicate to friendship.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I totally get those, those seasons and those trade offs.
2
SPEAKER_00
But when we take like a helicopter view and an aerial view of your friendships, that should not be the norm is that most of my hours are in getting this, getting this money.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, and again, I know there s a lot of stuff that feels countercultural to even say that, because it s like, hustle, hustle, girl, get your check.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I respect that.
2
SPEAKER_00
But, you know, a couple of things can help.
2
SPEAKER_00
The first is think about things that you can do that aren t necessarily
2
SPEAKER_00
getting together in person, although that s like the number one way to kind of clock hours together to feel seen is in real time in person.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
But what are other things I can do to spend time with my friend or to clock hours together?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because I know a lot of times we re like, I don t even have time to like physically see her.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I get that traveling and all the things, but what are other things we can do?
2
SPEAKER_00
So for example, I mean, I know it sounds cheesy, but like, let s say there s a show that you both love, like,
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, Thursday night, we re both virtually watching it, and then we re gonna dish about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s so simple, but that is an example of prioritizing friendship.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know what?
2
SPEAKER_00
Thursday, the emails for me stop at four o clock.
2
SPEAKER_00
I need to talk to my girl.
2
SPEAKER_00
It is just as important.
2
SPEAKER_00
We cannot be pushing that into the margins of our lives, and I ll get to it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I just, again, it s so easy to get absorbed with hustle culture, but friendship just doesn t work that way.
2
SPEAKER_00
And again, I know as adults, we re prioritizing other things.
2
SPEAKER_00
Some people are focused on establishing family ties.
2
SPEAKER_00
Some are trying to crack down at work.
3
SPEAKER_00
can t be an afterthought because I work with too many women who lift their head up after running on the treadmill of life and business and they re like, well, I don t have any friends or like, gosh, I feel like I don t even know them anymore or they don t.
3
SPEAKER_00
That happens by, you know, bit by bit.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s not a sudden thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
It tends to happen as like a accumulation of a series of little choices.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s how we end up there.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yep.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s similar to I feel like with romantic relationships, you know, like when
3
SPEAKER_01
someone gets into a relationship, a lot of times their friendships suffer.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I ve had that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let s say you only have X amount of time outside of work or school or whatever for social, and that could either go to a significant other or to, you know, a group of friends maybe.
3
SPEAKER_01
How do you manage that?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because I think for a lot of people, it s not on purpose that they lose contact with their friends.
3
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, being in a romantic relationship maybe lines up with the trajectory of the life that I want to have.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like I want to have a family or this or that.
3
SPEAKER_01
But you also need to have friends because that relationship could fizzle and then you re like, that s a messy situation that I think is a lot easier to sort of discuss hypothetically.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like in reality, it s,
3
SPEAKER_01
so challenging to manage?
3
SPEAKER_01
What is like a realistic sort of way to manage dating, work, friends, give everything proper attention?
3
SPEAKER_01
Is it even possible sometimes?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god, so many things.
3
SPEAKER_00
The first thing I ll say is I really appreciate you asking the question around how do I balance this?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because it s all important to me and I m trying to figure out how do I balance this?
3
SPEAKER_00
When it comes to romance versus friendship, the research says that people who are in a couple, mostly married couples, when they have friends outside of the friendship, those couples are more successful than people who do not have friends.
3
SPEAKER_00
So we re not keeping our friends around as, OK, I need a backup in case this fails.
3
SPEAKER_00
I need friends to even stabilize this relationship.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if you want to be successful in your platonic or romantic relationships,
3
SPEAKER_00
keep your girlfriends around.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because the research shows you need that.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that s important.
3
SPEAKER_00
But the first thing I ll say is if you find that you re like, I don t know that I can balance this all.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do I make more time for friends?
3
SPEAKER_00
One little sneaky little thing you re probably not looking at that could help a lot is look at how much time you spend alone.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because that s my first tip for reclaiming time with friends is look at how much alone time you spend.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the reason I say that is because
3
SPEAKER_00
There is this survey that came out, it s the American Time Use Survey, where they monitor and they see how are Americans spending every, you know, their hours.
3
SPEAKER_00
And in 2013, we were spending an average of six hours a week with our friends.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, about 10 years later, we re spending a little over two hours a week with our friends.
3
SPEAKER_00
And where did those extra hours go alone time?
3
SPEAKER_00
Probably on the phone.
3
SPEAKER_00
On the phone, scrolling, streaming, all the things.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s not a bad thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
You need time to recharge.
3
SPEAKER_00
You need to know how to be good with your own company.
3
SPEAKER_00
But if you re feeling like, I don t have time for friends, the first thing I point clients toward is, can I ask what your alone time looks like?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because the easiest thing you can do is socialize the things that you are doing alone.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re watching shows, you re TikToking, you re cooking.
3
SPEAKER_00
Can I invite a friend into that?
3
SPEAKER_00
Hey, come tell me about your date while I make this new dish.
3
SPEAKER_00
Hey, come watch the show with me.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or even if it s not close friends and you re starting totally from scratch, okay, if I like to draw or read, can I go do it in a public space?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like at least I m among other people and that positions me for opportunities for a person to say, oh, hey, what are you reading?
3
SPEAKER_00
Or like, oh, hey, what?
3
SPEAKER_00
but how do I position myself for more connection in my life?
3
SPEAKER_00
And like, yeah, it s going to take away from other things, but I mean, it s that important to begin with.
3
SPEAKER_01
Is it something that needs to be planned or is it something that can be more intuitive when it comes to like managing these things?
3
SPEAKER_00
I think it s a healthy mix of both because people who are believing like, friendship should just feel like easy and organic and natural.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like I totally get that.
3
SPEAKER_00
And to some extent, yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like it s a very elective relationship unlike other kinds of relationships, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, you know, professional, I m here for my check.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or romantic, we re opting in and then opting out.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, like everything else is different.
3
SPEAKER_00
But friendship, we kind of fall into it.
3
SPEAKER_00
We kind of don t.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I don t have to be here.
3
SPEAKER_00
I have like no contractual obligation.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, so to some degree, we do want that kind of relationship to offer a sense of ease to our lives.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I get that.
3
SPEAKER_00
But there needs to be some intention as well.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And by that, I mean this.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s research where they were trying to find how many
3
SPEAKER_00
friends we can have and how many social connections we can maintain.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I m curious.
3
SPEAKER_00
And they found that our brains can only cognitively really handle like 150 social connections.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if you think about that like a large circle and you think about smaller and smaller like concentric circles inside of that, it represents smaller and smaller numbers, but the degree of closeness goes up.
3
SPEAKER_00
So in that smallest circle, you have room for three to five super close
3
SPEAKER_00
Ultra close relationships.
3
SPEAKER_00
The reason I bring this up is because when you start to get intentional about like, okay, do I have time for friends?
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you re an extrovert trying to get coffee with 15 people, you are going to feel like I don t have time.
3
SPEAKER_00
I feel overextended because you re trying to do all the things with too many people and your concern is going wide instead of going deep.
3
SPEAKER_00
So at some point, if you re feeling overwhelmed and you re like, I don t have time to be with all these friends, who are your three to five?
3
SPEAKER_00
Who are your three to five?
3
SPEAKER_00
And everybody else, maybe I ll catch you like in a group setting or maybe I ll catch... But who are my three to five?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because it helps me to concentrate my time and it gives me more direction for how to spend my hours, which is a limited resource.
3
SPEAKER_00
And for the person who s like, oh gosh, I don t know if I want to spend time with... I would question you.
3
SPEAKER_00
do you like the people you hang out with?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because if it feels like a chore every time, like, oh, I ve got to spend time with friends, I m curious about why you would feel that way.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, I m an extrovert, and there are times when I m like, oh my god, I need a minute.
3
SPEAKER_00
I get it.
3
SPEAKER_00
But generally, when I think of friendship, I become tired instead of energized.
3
SPEAKER_00
Who are you hanging out with?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And what are y all doing when you re together?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because it might be an issue of you re hanging with the wrong people and y all are engaging in things you don t want to do.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
You don t enjoy.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that could maybe offer a starting point.
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you think it s important for the person that you date to like your friends?
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you think that s crucial or do you think that s like an added bonus?
3
SPEAKER_01
What should we be striving for there?
3
SPEAKER_00
OK, so in a perfect world, yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like your boo thinks your friends are like just amazing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there actually is research that shows that couples who have an overlap, friendship overlap, meaning they share some friends are happier couples.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I know some people argue like, oh, they don t have to like them and our friend should be separate.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I get that.
3
SPEAKER_00
But in reality, for all kind of combining our lives, it helps if they kind of enjoy each other.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but the reality is that partner might not be a big fan of your friends, or maybe he s like, oh, she talks too much, or like, she s always got drama.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think some of that s normal.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think what worries me is when you feel like you have to choose between them, or he s trying to make you see that they re not worth your time, and they re trying to make you see that he s, then that s when we have like some tension, and that can be really problematic.
3
SPEAKER_00
But you can t have an expectation that your partner
3
SPEAKER_00
be in love with your girlfriend, sometimes it doesn t happen, but as long as we can have some kind of harmony, and one group s not trying to get me to terminate the other, you know, then we re good.
3
SPEAKER_00
But in an ideal world, and according to the research, it helps when you can all be friends, yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Talk to me about how to take a friendship that s maybe pretty good, pretty deep, and take it to the next level, like really,
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know, I think it can be challenging.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think some people even cringe at the idea of taking a friendship and making it deeper.
3
SPEAKER_01
How do you do that?
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, I love this question so freaking much.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think it s because people, like the number one question I get is how do I make friends, which makes sense, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
And typically it comes with some kind of qualifier, like how do I make friends as a new mom or as a woman in a new city?
3
SPEAKER_00
I get all that.
3
SPEAKER_00
But at some point, you re collecting them.
3
SPEAKER_00
you know, remember what we said earlier about that research thing that quality relationships are what make us happy and physically healthy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s one thing to have a lot of girls on the roster.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s another to have those all be superficial relationships.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
So how do we develop the skill of like, okay, if I wanted to advance this, what do I say?
3
SPEAKER_00
What do I do?
3
SPEAKER_00
So, okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
So three things.
3
SPEAKER_00
There is a concept known as friend-timacy by an OG friendship expert, Shasta Nelson, and she argues that you need three things to create depth.
3
SPEAKER_00
Positivity, consistency, and vulnerability.
3
SPEAKER_00
So positivity, there s research that shows that
3
SPEAKER_00
successful relationships have a positivity to negativity ratio of five to one.
3
SPEAKER_00
So for every one negative interaction we have, we need to have five positives to offset that.
3
SPEAKER_00
But a lot of us get into friendships or befriend people who like, it s negative and it s chronic complaining and all that.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s fine to some degree, but how often are we doing that?
3
SPEAKER_00
So one way to
4
SPEAKER_00
create depth is to find more like joy in the friendship so that we re not just bonding over the negative.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
The second thing is consistency.
4
SPEAKER_00
You cannot get away from having to spend time together to deepen the friendship.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m sorry.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yep.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I stand by that and people are trying to find hacks and get around and be like, oh, I just need like one coffee date every other month.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s cool.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the research finds that it takes 34 hours to take somebody from an acquaintance to a friend.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I always joke, if you had a little timer on your head, would you be like, oh, OK, we need eight more hours?
4
SPEAKER_00
How would you become more intentional if you knew, OK, it s going to take 34 hours?
4
SPEAKER_00
No one s saying that has to happen in two weeks.
4
SPEAKER_00
Maybe over five months time, what s the rush?
4
SPEAKER_00
But how am I sitting down and being like, OK, she s so cool.
4
SPEAKER_00
I want to get to know her.
4
SPEAKER_00
What am I actively doing to spend time with you to uncover more things about you, who you are, your style, your values?
4
SPEAKER_00
I got to spend time together.
4
SPEAKER_00
I can t just read your Insta bio.
4
SPEAKER_00
I need to know you.
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SPEAKER_00
And then finally, I mean, we hear this all the time, but vulnerability.
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You want to get deeper and know her better, you re going to have to be vulnerable.
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And the one thing I will say here, because people are like, yes, vulnerability.
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I want to correct something really quick.
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Vulnerability does not just mean blab about all your business.
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If you are oversharing in a compulsive way, it is not vulnerability because vulnerability by definition means you re taking a risk of rejection.
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Meaning you say to yourself, oh, this might not go well.
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She might reject me for it, but I m going to do it.
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I m going to put myself out there.
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So if in our first conversation, I m telling you about,
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my hygiene and my sex life, my money troubles, my mental health, my addictions, and my trauma, it is not a risk for me because I enjoy talking about it.
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And I know some people might- Interesting.
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If I enjoy talking about all the quote unquote traditionally heavy things, it is not being vulnerable because I don t feel any risk.
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Yeah.
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I like going into those things.
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Vulnerability is when it feels really risky.
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You have to do that with people you want to get deeper with.
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So vulnerability might look like you and I go on a coffee date and I m driving away thinking like, okay,
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She s really cool, I would love to do that again.
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But I m not gonna ask her, because what if that looks clingy?
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No, okay, I m gonna ask her.
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That s vulnerable.
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For me to say, hey, do you wanna get together again, is vulnerable.
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Now, sharing about traumas and things like that can be vulnerable too.
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But if you are taking certain risks, putting yourself out there and opening up, you know it might be risky, but you re doing it for the sake to be more known and to be deeper in the relationship,
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That is a good thing and the last thing I ll say is there s something known as the beautiful mess effect And it s this idea that we tend to like people more after they ve been vulnerable Yeah, so lean into that if your goal is to create more depth with existing friends.
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Yeah, I mean I ve I ve never experienced Like a person being vulnerable with me and me afterward
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like them less.
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It s very humanizing and very endearing.
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I agree.
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It s it s so that s huge.
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Also, I think I m somebody who over shares and like but not I don t think it s in like a crazy way.
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But I m also I m someone who can talk about anything.
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And it s very hard for me to be in a weird way vulnerable because
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I m not uncomfortable by talking about various things that are considered, like, deep.
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Like, if somebody asks me a question about something deep, it s like, I don t care, I ll answer that.
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Like, I just, it s, so, for me being vulnerable is, like, going and asking about, like, I m, I don t like asking to hang out first.
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I always wait for people to come to me.
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But that s not, that s where it is.
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So that s, you just spoke to me right there, because that s so true.
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How much should we be
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going out and, you know, sort of chasing after friendship versus how much should we sort of wait for it to come to us?
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I mean, I think it s sort of a similar thing to, you know, I don t chase, I attract.
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But that s sort of confusing.
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Like, there s a lot to that where it s like,
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You do kind of have to chase after things a little bit.
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The whole I don t chase, I attract is a really cute phrase for a tote bag, I think.
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Totally.
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And I totally get that.
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I think at the heart of that is to pursue things so much that you re losing a sense of self.
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Yeah.
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You totally get it.
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Yep.
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But we have got to get comfortable expressing platonic desire.
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If I m like, man, Emma s cool.
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Yeah.
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just going to head around and see if she wants to get together or I m going to send her a message that I think she thinks is funny.
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I m going to let her know.
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I m going to let her know I enjoy her and I d love to spend more time with her company.
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And I do think that makes a lot of people cringe.
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The idea of having your desire be so
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seen and naked feels very vulnerable.
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But if I want active friendships, I have to be active.
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So to the point of what s too much of pursuing this and that, I think that you have to, this sounds very woo-woo, and this is not traditionally me, but I always say, you have to embody the identity of being a connector.
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It can t just be something you do, it has to be who you are.
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And if you say to yourself, hey, I m a connector, that s who I am,
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then naturally when you initiate texts with people or somebody crossed your mind, so you send her a message or you want to hang out with somebody, so you ask them, there s power in that.
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As opposed to the passive reactiveness of like, well, if they reach out to me, then I will.
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What is that?
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To some degree, I have certain authority of my own friendships.
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And if I like you, I m going to be like, oh my God, we should totally get together.
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Now, don t be foolish.
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If I ve asked multiple times and somehow this person s always busy and they never offer an alternative, hey, I m busy on Saturday, but hey, can we do Tuesday?
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If I m getting all the signs and cues that this person is not wanting to invest the same way, I take that information and I use that as the data I need to know how to better direct my efforts.
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And so it is a balance of pursuing and boldly claiming
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what you want and who you enjoy, but also wisely discerning who s reciprocating and where that investment would be best returned.
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That s huge.
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Yeah.
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I feel like I m ready to go out and make some fucking friends this weekend, baby.
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Yes.
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Actually, or maybe I m just going to deepen.
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No, I might just deepen my existing.
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We re good on new ones.
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No, maybe.
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You never know.
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That was so incredibly helpful.
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I feel like my brain is filled with so much knowledge.
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Thank you for everything.
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I m so glad.
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I m so glad.
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That was amazing.
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Thank you for asking such thoughtful questions.
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Thank you so much.
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And sharing about yourself, I think is, I mean, that s what, you know.
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I love making it about me.
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I really do.