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I m Mario Martinez, Jr., CEO and founder of Ingresso, and we are the creators of flymessage.io, the free personal writing assistant and text expander application.
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On each episode of this podcast, you will hear from sales leaders, practitioners, and influencers to help you grow your sales numbers at scale.
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So.
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Get your pen and paper or iPad and keyboard and start taking notes as you re now listening to the Modern Selling Podcast.
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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this episode of the Modern Selling Podcast.
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And today, I ve got an amazing treat for you.
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It s my friend, Mr. Matthew Pillard.
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Actually, you may have heard of him before, and I m so honored to have him on the show.
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Not only is he the CEO of the Rapid Growth Coach, but he s also the award-winning and best-selling author of the Introverts Edge series.
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Now, we re gonna take some time to be talking about those of you in marketing and sales
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looking at how do I deal with being an introvert or an extrovert, or does it really even matter?
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We ll take some time to talk about that today.
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Matt, welcome to the show, my friend.
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Well, I m excited to be here.
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Thanks for having me on.
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I m excited that you re here.
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Now, do me a favor.
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For those that don t know you, I don t know why they wouldn t know you, but for those that don t know you, do me a favor.
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Give a little background about yourself, the business, and touch on the book as well.
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And then I ve got a very special question I want to ask you.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So yeah, I guess the best thing to say for those that don t know me is that I was an introverted guy that fell into sales after losing my job just before Christmas and really had no idea how to sell.
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The whole idea of it daunted me, to be honest, but the only job I could get was commissioned on these sales.
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I taught myself how to sell watching YouTube videos.
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Fast forward about six weeks, I was told that I was the number one salesperson in the company.
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Fast forward.
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Just a little while longer than that, I ve been promoted many, many times.
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Fast forward just shy of a decade, I ve been responsible for five multimillion dollar success stories.
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So my whole focus though is I feel that there are a lot of sales leaders that have introverted staff and they say, oh, poor Johnny or poor Sarah, they can t sell as an introvert.
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And they accept subpar performance and those introverts accept subpar performance of themselves really.
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And I m tired of introverts really feeling like they re second class citizens.
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The truth is their path to success is just different and
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You know, I think actually where I first met your brand was at the AISP Leadership Summit when I was keynoting there.
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And I remember doing a leadership retreat right afterwards.
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And I just asked the question, who here is introverted and extroverted?
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Simple question, right?
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You d think I m introverted or extroverted.
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No, we ve got so many varying answers.
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I don t know who s one of them.
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Oh, I was the introverted, but don t worry, I m not introverted now, like it s a disease.
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And oh, I was introverted in the past, but I feel like now I m now a completely an extrovert.
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Like just weird things.
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Like firstly, you can t change.
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It s just where you get your energy.
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But then secondly, there s nothing wrong with being an introvert or an extrovert for that matter.
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We all have burdens to bear.
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Extroverts need to learn to empathize.
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They need to learn to listen more.
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The thing is that HR believes that those people can learn those skills.
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Introverts have an internal battle to believe that it s possible.
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And then the great thing, and this is the reason I believe introverts have the edge, which is what my book s about.
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It s the introvert s edge to selling.
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But I believe that introverts will hold onto a sales system for dear life because without it, we re kind of terrible at it.
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This isn t rocket science.
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Like the top 10% of all sales performers have a planned presentation.
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Extroverts, unfortunately, they want to wing things.
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So because of that, they keep trying to run away from a system and leverage their natural ability.
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Introverts, while we struggle at the beginning, when we find a system, it changes our lives and it changes our earning trajectory.
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I love that description.
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I totally get it.
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I am very much the extrovert.
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My wife is very much the introvert.
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And you nailed something, which is we as extroverts tend to not listen and have struggles with empathy.
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So those are definitely some challenges.
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And of course, you talked about the Introvert s Edge.
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That s the series, the book series that you ve come out with.
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And we re gonna spend some time talking about that.
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But before we begin,
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Man, I always ask everyone a very special question, and I m looking for something juicy, so give it up.
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Tell us something nobody knows about you, even if they re looking at any or all of your social profiles.
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You know what, I actually don t share this because I mean, my, my brand, I m look, I m a humble person and my brand is very conservative, but I fell in love with rap jumping a long time ago.
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So, uh, with what?
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Rap jumping.
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So, um, most people are familiar with rappelling or abseiling where, you know, walking down mountains, um, but kind of, you know, your backs to it.
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I actually find that rather daunting.
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But what I discovered is that rap jumping is where you run down the side of mountains or run down the side of buildings face first.
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And I actually really, really love that.
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So my first time ever that I did this, I went through this stage where I d work like 80 hours a week for as long as I can remember.
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And I m like, that s it.
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I m going to reacquaint myself with my hobbies.
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I joined Groupon predominantly just to learn all about all the different things that I hadn t thought about in years.
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And I just bought everything.
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And I may not have bought it off Groupon, I may have bought something else off their site, but it was about being presented.
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And this thing that came up was called rap jumping.
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And it was like, would you like to run down the side of a 10-story building?
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And I went, well, why not?
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So I did it.
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The first time it was terrifying.
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It basically felt like you were trying to kill yourself right up until it was fun.
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But then after that, it was a blast.
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And now I look for opportunities to do it.
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Oh my god.
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First off, I didn t even know that had a name.
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Secondly, alright, so are you actually running off of buildings on the side of the buildings towards the street or are you actually doing mountains or both?
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Yeah, so both is the answer.
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I think it s unique.
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A lot of rappellers will rappel down the side of a mountain, and that s kind of cool.
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There s something really unique about running down the side of a building, though, like a 20-story.
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I feel like a lot of office blocks, a lot of people don t even let you on the roof.
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So it feels sort of different and unique to run down the side of a building.
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So for me, that is definitely my favorite to do that.
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And the first time, the hardest thing is to go from standing to kind of rotating, you know, to the 90 degrees.
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That part s rather daunting.
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After that, it feels a lot more like you re just walking down a sidewalk, as long as you don t, you just got to keep it through your mind that that s not actually what you re doing.
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Okay.
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All right.
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So totally not about the podcast, not about the topic, but I do want to understand,
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How do you get the vertical 90 degree?
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Like someone holding you has tension on you and then slowly releasing your body so that you don t feel like you re about to die?
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Yeah, yeah, on both sides, on both sides.
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And I will say, like, I am a, you know, I am a super data nerd.
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I, you know, a lot of times the reason why I speak when I speak at a lot, I tend to speak at a lot of sales kickoffs, big tech companies and things like that, because I love the science.
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I love the tech and I can understand it all.
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And I take
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these kind of risks the same way.
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I know the statistical chance of things going wrong, and I keep reminding myself of that, rather than... I mean, it s safer to do that than it is to cross a road, truthfully, because you ve got somebody holding the rope at one end, you ve got somebody holding the rope at the other.
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If I was to accidentally slip, hurt my ankle, and fall down, somebody would stop me from falling.
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So it is pretty safe.
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Things do go wrong, but things go wrong all the time doing the safest things.
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Lord have mercy.
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Okay, right.
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No, I ve never heard of it.
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And it s called rap jumping.
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Is that correct?
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R-A-P?
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R-A-P.
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Rap jumping.
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Correct.
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All right.
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All right.
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Well, I m going to have to look for my next Groupon.
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And it was funny, actually.
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Long ago, Groupon used to be super popular.
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We used to buy all kinds of great deals at restaurants and whatnot.
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And now that you said the name Groupon, it was the first time I thought about it.
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And I don t know how long.
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It s been years since I thought about Groupon.
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Well, the brand s gone bankrupt, I think.
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at least from memory, I looked it up.
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I think what happened was they were doing really well and something happened.
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And I m trying to remember the story because I remember there was a big article about the... I think Groupon was going to get bought out by Google.
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They got offered a fortune and they turned it down.
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And then something went wrong and the whole
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industry kind of fell apart for them.
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I do believe it s still there, but I don t believe it s owned by the same company and it s kind of being bought back from the dead.
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But I thought it was, I mean, for me, it was really great.
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And I think that, I mean, there s definitely thousands of ways to do it now.
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Back then, there wasn t that many things for online experiences, especially in that
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You know, that tiny little place on the other side of the world where I grew up in Australia.
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I mean, there s a lot more options here in the US.
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But for me, it was, I got myself to a point where I was like, you know what, I really just want to be mass confronted with things.
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So, you know, I did that.
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I got my motorbike license.
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I went scuba diving.
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I learned the language.
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That didn t go so well.
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I learned photography, which was...
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I m a terrible photographer, my wife will still tell you, but I did do a class on it to know that I m terrible.
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And there s lots of other things that I was presented with and it just opened up doors.
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And, you know, a lot of times it s better to not buy it off there, but buy it off the website because it s always better to do it at the better time or, you know, the right season and things like that.
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But it s just getting you in front of things you wouldn t, it wouldn t normally occur to you.
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I gotcha, well, all right.
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So let s get into some of the good content then, talking about introverts, sales leadership, selling, and having this personality type.
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You talked about earlier that you re an introvert yourself, and I find that hard to believe based upon how the conversation s going and what I know of you, of course.
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But I do understand that there are certain times where we turn things on and we turn things off.
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So first off, define for me,
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How do you define an introvert is the first question that I d have.
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And then let s move on to talking about how do we leverage this in looking for talent?
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Yeah, I think that s a really important question because, I mean, everybody knows an introvert is that, you know, really ugly looking guy or girl hiding under a building hoping no one recognizes them, right?
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And it s really not what an introvert is, but the hardship is, I think anyone that s successful, people project extroversion upon them.
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Right?
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So, I mean, I actually have a podcast called The Introvert s Edge, where I interview all these people that are amazingly successful at all these so-called extroverted arenas.
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Anything from billion dollar founders, and by the way, they exist outside tech as well.
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The founder of billion dollar sheepskin boot company, Ugg Boots.
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is an introvert, right?
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Right through to people that are in the world of sales.
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One thing that blew me away to discover is Zig Ziglar, the most well-known sales trainer on the planet, probably, and a really strong personality, he was introverted himself.
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His son, Tom Ziglar, is an introvert.
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By the way, you go to Global Guru s list of top 30 sales professionals, I can run through how many introverts that are actually on that list.
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And it blew me away
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And this is why I think it s a really important topic to define what it is, because I feel like people were embarrassed.
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I m going to say were, because I really feel like it s starting to change.
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But people were embarrassed to say that they were introverted.
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And I think even if we went back 30 years, a lot of the older dogs that are in the sales training world, if they had have said from stage they were introverted, maybe they wouldn t have been welcomed back or hired.
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But I do think that is shifting.
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To me, introversion is as simple as this.
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If you draw your energy from being with people, you re an extrovert.
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If you draw your energy by being by yourself, then you re an introvert.
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Now, when somebody says, well, Matt, clearly I don t get the impression that you re an introvert.
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And I get this.
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I do it too.
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I remember watching a guy called Dan Walshmit speak from stage.
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And he spoke at the same conference as I was.
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And when I just first started speaking, I looked at him and I m like, oh my gosh, this is a really dynamic speaker.
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And when I was looking for endorsements, he actually got upset with me that I didn t ask him for an endorsement, but I asked for only introverts.
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And there was no way in my mind this guy was an introvert.
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he s an introvert himself.
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And so what I ve realized is even I, who get upset with projecting, people projecting extroversion upon everyone, I do it myself.
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So don t hold yourself, don t be upset with yourself for doing this.
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But I mean, introverts,
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We carry ourselves differently than what the stereotype is.
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For first things, David Letterman and Oprah Winfrey are both introverts.
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So if you think you can t do small talk, you re wrong.
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If you think about networking, well, clearly introverts are terrible networkers.
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Well, I also have a book on networking and I ve managed to grow an amazing network, but forget about me.
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Ivan Meisner, the founder of the world s largest networking group in the world,
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is an introvert.
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Well, okay, well, we can t be dynamic.
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Bill Murray, the guy that we know from the Groundhog Day, is an introvert.
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So why is it that we can t do these things?
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The answer is we can do all of those things.
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We just need systems and processes, and we also need belief.
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And I understand why we don t do the work, because if you think you re going to run a marathon and not even finish, why would you bother training at all?
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So a lot of introverts just have this belief that they can t excel.
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So now let s think about me for a second, because
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Yes, you re 100% right.
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A lot of people will say to me all the time that when I see you speak from stage or when I speak on podcast, you clearly don t come across as an introvert.
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Are you introverted anymore?
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Well, the truth is this.
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Everything you re witnessing right now comes from a ton of planning and preparation.
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And more importantly,
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comes from a ton of practice.
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I practiced a ton before I ever did my first interview, and that was writing out some of the stories that I... I mean, sure, since I ve done over 100 interviews now, I ve got lots of planned and perfected stories.
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I ve been asked a couple of questions that I wasn t expecting, and I ve learned to answer those better next time.
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And now I have the ability to synthesize all that together into the person you re experiencing today.
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But I m not saying I m switching on the extroverted button because that s definitely not what I m doing.
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I am by nature strategic and I actually am very outspoken about things I care about.
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So if you want to talk to me about something I m not outspokenly that I don t care about, I may not be that outspoken.
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But if you want to talk to me about why introverts are amazing at sales or why people need to embrace story into a sales process, because most sales processes that get implemented never get operationalized because it s too big,
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why they should start with story, why try and stop me explaining why I think that those things should be done or why introverts have more value.
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When you combine real knowledge, excitement for a topic, and unbridled passion, an introvert will come across as extroverted.
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What people are perceiving are extroverted.
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But what people are actually witnessing is a huge amount of practice and preparation
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connected with passion, which creates in my world, not me becoming someone that I m not, because that s what I think a lot of people aspire to do, becoming the best version of myself.
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And I do that in sales.
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I do that in networking.
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And it s all things that I would normally say.
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I m not, you know, if you asked me to on the cuff, tell a joke, the only thing I can guarantee is nobody will laugh.
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But if you give me time, I might be able to practice that as well.
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It s all about being
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about really thinking about what s authentic to you, following a process that works for you.
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But here s what s interesting.
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This is why I think a lot of people that are introverted believe they re now extroverted.
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It doesn t take as much energy for me to do this anymore.
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It doesn t take as much energy for me to network.
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I am still
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I am still tired afterwards, but I m nowhere near as tired as I used to be.
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And because of a lot of that anxiety energy s gone away, but also a lot of the anxiety energy and stress, thinking about what I m saying, getting stuck in my head, all of that s gone.
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So now I find it fun.
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I gotcha.
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And that makes a lot of sense in way of once you start spending a lot of time on something and actually, um, uh,
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feeling more comfortable, it makes it a lot easier to be able to cope and deal, especially with the stress and anxiety.
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A lot of sales leaders, however, have introverts on their team.
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And I guess the question that I have would be, how can a sales leader leverage their introverted talent
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And is there a different management style between an introvert and a extrovert?
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And I guess, how would you even know unless you ask somebody, I suppose?
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I think we can make observations or guesses, but to your point, I know Dan Walsh, and I can call him up and talk to Dan all day long and he s good, right?
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And he s an amazing speaker, by the way.
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I also agree with you.
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And he was actually on this podcast, to be honest with you.
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But I would have never guessed that he was not an introvert, if I had not known him, right?
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Based upon what I see in a public display.
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So I guess let s start, let s revert back.
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How can a sales leader figure that out?
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And then how do they leverage
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that introverted talent?
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Yeah, sure.
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So the honest answer would be, don t try and figure it out because if you guess, you re going to be wrong.
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And I m not saying you re definitely going to be wrong.
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I m saying you re going to be wrong often enough that it won t be helpful.
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And the reason I say that is, well, actually, let me go back to the statement I made before about when I did the survey at the AAISP Leadership Summit and people said, oh, I was introverted, but don t worry, I am not anymore.
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or i m now an extrovert like if you don t even know for yourself like what business do you have asking someone else but then secondly if you think that you ve recovered like that s that s the other statement you get oh i m a recovering introvert like if you if those are the things that you have in your head
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What benefit would it be for an employee to tell you that they re introverted?
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I feel that a lot of organizations, a lot of HR professionals get their team to do some form of personality profile, and a lot of times introvert or extrovert is on one of those personality profiles.
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I don t know.
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If I was an introvert working in a large corporation, I would absolutely lie on the answers to those questions to tick the extroverted box.
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Because the last thing I want is my boss to say, oh, poor little Matthew, he can t be a leader because he s an introvert.
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Or it s more likely that this person is more able to be a leader, even though a lot of the best leaders on the planet are introverted.
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So I feel that
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There s got to be an unwinding of the stigma that everybody creates around it and a lot of it is being honest with ourselves.
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So if you are an introverted leader, be honest with your team that you are an introverted leader and start a dialogue about that.
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If you are an extroverted leader, talk about your burdens and also introduce that introverts have their own advantages.
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So I was on Geoffrey Giddemore s Sell or Die podcast, and he s a big extrovert.
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He s like, until I realized that sales systemization was the only way forward, I couldn t teach anyone.
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I could never have been the guy I am today.
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And we chatted for like an hour and a half on his podcast about systems for introverts and systems for extroverts.
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And it s really interesting when you think about this.
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So to come to your question, Mario, about, is there a different way to manage?
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Yes, there is.
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So the reason for that is because introverts won t try to learn a system unless they can believe that they can.
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And sometimes, and that s why, you know, mainly when I speak from stage, I talk about storytelling, but I drop my introversion story, the $93 before the first sale, my horrible acne, I let everyone laugh at me.
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You know what I mean?
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Being responsible for five multi-million dollar success stories.
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All the bulldog salespeople, all the extroverts, they ll listen because I ve attained the success that earned me the right to be on that stage.
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The problem is the other half of the people on the stage are like, oh, I know none of the speakers really speak to me.
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I don t know if I can learn any systems.
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And they re scared of their own shadow.
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They re trying to sell by behind email because they don t think they have the competencies to pick up the phone.
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So you need to help them believe.
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And the best way to help them believe is one of a couple of ways.
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Point out a really successful introverted salesperson or highlight yourself as a really successful introverted salesperson.
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And I promise inside your organization, you will be one of those, or you will be able to find one of those.
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and then have an open dialogue where people get to enjoy their advantages and disadvantages, right?
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So if you re managing an extrovert, you want to help increase the chance of them following a sales system.
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Otherwise you end up with a rollercoaster of sales, right?
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And the best way to do that is to start with them saying, okay, and I see this happen all the time in organizations.
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They say, oh, we re going to develop, we re going to implement this sales system.
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So they try to operationalize it.
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Eight months later, they still haven t.
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I ve also seen people try to implement story-based structures, and eight months later, they haven t implemented that.
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So you ve got to pick something super small, super finite with an extrovert, and then ask them to learn it.
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The first thing you re going to hear is, oh, I d prefer to do it my own way.
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What they re really saying is, I don t want to put any effort into learning.
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So what you need to do with an extrovert is get them to agree to learning one part of a sales process.
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whether you have to police or hold them accountable, pick your word, that they actually learn it and they learn to do it their way.
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And the words that I want you to say to them is, sure, learn it this way, and if you still think your way is better, I m fine with you doing that.
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Once they learn it, I promise you, they re more likely to go with it.
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Then, making sure that they change their behavior in a sale.
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That s the extroverted method for success.
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An introverted method is about gaining belief in the sales process in the first place, their ability to succeed.
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Finding them a process that
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will allow them to feel authentic and allow them to leverage their natural gifts.
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So far more about asking good questions and telling good stories.
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What s really interesting though, is most people, it doesn t really matter what process, and my publisher is going to hate me when I say this, like, you don t need to follow my system.
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You don t need to buy my book for this.
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I mean, sure, in my first chapter of my book, I outlined the seven steps to the sale.
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And I often say, if you put what you currently say into it, you ll realize some things don t fit, throw that out.
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That s all the jargon you re spewing at the customer that you re
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You think you re educating the client, but you re just overwhelming them and asking them to ask for a proposal that they re never going to read.
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Then realize there s some things out of order, which is why they re asking for price too soon, or why they re getting annoyed with you.
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And then you ll realize there s some gaping holes, usually around asking great questions, not just any question, and then telling great stories.
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If you do that, you ll double your sales in the next 60 days.
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The truth is, though, it doesn t matter if it s my process or someone else.
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Any form of regimentation in sales process will increase to a great result.
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And I find, especially when you re doing solution sales, especially when you re dealing with complex sales environments, with a consensus sale,
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a lot of times there s more than one person in the sales process.
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And a lot of times there s an extrovert and an introverted solution salesperson.
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And because of that, you need to agree on a sales methodology.
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You need to agree the steps you will follow.
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And guess what?
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You can lean into your introverted strengths
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of letting them plan and prepare, then the extrovert can leverage their natural ability of getting rid of any of those awkwardnesses that pop up, but then make sure that everybody s sharing the same story so everyone can add to the one story.
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So it s far more important for a leader to understand you have to give them two different frameworks to get to the same place.
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But once they get to the same place, you have to get them all to act in unison
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and leverage each other s strengths.
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The introvert s always going to go away remembering more about what was said, fill out the paperwork correctly, and make sure it was implemented correctly.
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The extrovert is far more likely to be able to push that deal just a little bit further to get it to happen slightly more.
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But the introvert is going to be the reason why they buy a lot of the time.
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So getting everyone to work together and realize there s nothing wrong with being introverted or extroverted.
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We just all have burdens.
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And then leveraging
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and understanding that those are skills gaps that we can fill, we should all be working to fill those gaps while leveraging the people that have those natural abilities.
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But until you have an open dialogue where people don t feel like they re going to be truncated into a job or where they re no longer going to be promoted or not given opportunities because they say they re an introvert, then you re not going to be able to move the needle.
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So you said something that I will, I m going to be very honest, that struck a chord with me of like, I don t have time for that.
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And it actually goes into my next question really around why many have this belief that introverts don t make great salespeople.
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And earlier you said, listen, in terms of how to get the most out of your introverted talent, you ve got to help them believe and see that they can do A, B, C, right?
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Or that they can accomplish X, Y, Z. And the first thing that came to my mind was, I don t got time for that.
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Like, you gotta figure out where your own personal seat of motivation comes from and you gotta see that you can do this.
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I don t have time for that.
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Now, I ll help you bust through a door, right?
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And that is a perspective that I think many leaders have when they are looking at talent on their team.
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They don t see themselves.
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If they don t see themselves, then they re like, I don t understand the person.
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Let me just kind of, I ll state that for the office and for those of my fans out there listening to the podcast that are like, I m an introvert, bro.
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That s the first time you say that.
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I m just keeping it real.
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I m very real, as you know, here in my podcast.
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So let s talk about why do you think many sales leaders believe that introverts don t make good salespeople?
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So I think that introverts aren t naturally good at sales.
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We re just not, right?
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Until we discover a methodology, which most introverts, because we believe we can t sell, it s like a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
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We believe we can t sell.
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so we don t go to a sales methodology.
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Because we don t leverage a sales methodology, we re bad at sales.
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So I actually believe introverts are the best salespeople once they find that.
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Extroverts, and it s really interesting, when you see an extrovert, I don t think they re exceptional salespeople naturally.
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I think they re good salespeople naturally.
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They re exceptional only when they discover a system.
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So I actually think that extroverts have a bigger Achilles heel, just not at the same location.
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And when you say you don t have time for that, I love hearing that story.
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One of the things I always ask when somebody says, and by the way, for the sales managers that are listening to this, my favorite question to ask anybody ever when they say something that s not in their best interest is, when did you decide that?
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I think that statement is by far the best management tool I have ever learned.
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Because when somebody says,
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this story that you know is not in their best interest and you ask that, you get this reason of, oh, because I ve got to hit quota and I ve got all these responsibilities.
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I m like, okay.
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But think about how much time it takes to chase up your salespeople on sales that don t end up closing.
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Think about how long people spend writing proposals that never eventuate into anything.
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Think about how much time people spend tally marketing and reaching out to people for deals that don t close.
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Even worse, think about how much of your team is hiding behind email to try and close deals, which is extending sales cycles, which is killing everyone s bandwidth.
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The question I have is how do you not have time for this?
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And here s why I think that most people don t think this way.
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Most people are looking for instant gratification options.
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So thinking about whether I m introverted or whether I m extroverted and whether or not each person needs a specific type of guidance, how long does that really take?
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Let s have a 30 minute meeting where I m honest about myself and sharing that and then
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directing them to either my book or some other introverted specialist book just for them to believe in themselves.
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Sure, after that it s on them.
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But your job as a manager is to get the best out of your team and you better inspire them that they can.
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I think that s the number one job of a manager.
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You tell them that they can.
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I feel that the reason we don t is we don t feel it s productive.
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What we do is we put
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our ability to believe that our energy should be spent on active deal conversation or doing something that actively leads to more deals.
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I personally believe, and I think that I m starting to see that shift in sales leadership now where they re realizing that there s only a certain amount you can do in sales process.
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Mindset s really where it s at.
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And because of that, transforming somebody s mindset to the fact that they thought that they had to accept subpar performance and now they don t need to anymore,
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that is by far the most
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the most responsibility, I would say, falls on the manager.
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Now, if you open that door and they don t walk through it, well, that s on them.
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And I would really think about whether you keep them working for you.
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But if you don t at least help them realize that they can, well, that s on you.
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And what do you want to do?
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Get them to listen to this podcast if they re an introvert.
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Get them to listen to a big extrovert, like Jeffrey Ginnemore, talk about sales system if they re an extrovert.
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And if the extrovert doesn t follow a sales system or if the introvert doesn t believe in that, well, you ve done your best.
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They can listen to it on the way to an appointment.
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But what I do feel is most people only focus on things that they feel move the needle that are active things.
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So we don t sit down and we ll say, what do I want to do with my life?
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Or what s wrong with my mindset?
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Because it doesn t feel productive, though it has the biggest impact on sales outcomes.
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Yeah, I mean, what you just described is essentially helping anyone on the team, if you would, to find their sales edge, if you would, right?
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And to getting the most out of each member of the team.
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And that s our job as sales leaders.
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Although what we oftentimes like to do is we like to
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create a team of mini-me s, right?
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And we have a hard time and difficult time of being able to relate and see somebody s fear, trepidation, concerns.
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And in many situations, what I ve seen leaders do is when they can t connect with that individual,
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They insert themselves into the seller s process, and then you get the issue of taking over or being too overly involved, those types of things.
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And you mentioned something about
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One of the reasons why introverts are the greatest sales reps is because they re able to learn a methodology and follow a process because that s in their DNA, right?
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Whereas the extrovert, we sometimes fly by the seat of our pants and we don t actually are following the methodology.
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In fact, one of the hardest challenges that we see with extroverts is that they know everything.
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They think they know the answer to what s gonna happen.
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And they re forming judgments and questions before they truly listen and understand pain, impact, problem, those types of things.
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Whereas the introvert is the empathetic individual.
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They re the listener.
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They want to understand.
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And in their mind, once they understand, now they can follow a process or a methodology.
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And that s why I think it s so interesting to talk about this because, you know,
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Those that have been on my teams before in the past that followed the methodology were uber successful once they got that.
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So let s talk about learning a sales process, methodology.
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It definitely can feel daunting to any seller.
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And one of the biggest challenges that we have in sales is we present a methodology, a system, and what we turn around and see is that those individual
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sellers go back right at the very next day, they leave the office, they get out of the workshop and they go right back into their bad habits.
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SPEAKER_00
Is there, I guess, one skill that an individual could focus on first when learning a wholesale process?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And look, I will say for those managers out there, I kind of get
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I kind of get where you re at with this because, look, I got thrown into sales leadership.
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So my backstory is I had a reading speed of a sixth grader in late high school.
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I was super introverted.
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I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life.
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And then I took a job at a real estate agency out of high school.
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Predominantly, and I wasn t the guy out selling, I was doing data entry to find myself for the year.
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What happened was I lost my job about three weeks in, they shut down the office and the only job I could get was commission only sales.
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And it was terrifying for me, but not as terrifying as telling my dad that I worked 80 hours a week, I was out of work.
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So I applied for all three jobs.
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I got three job interviews.
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I then got three job offers and I m like, you know what?
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Maybe they see something in me I don t see in myself.
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Well, I found out pretty quickly when I got there.
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My trainer was like, Matt, we just hire everyone.
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We throw mud up against the wall, we see what sticks.
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I guess, fun saying until you realize you re the mud.
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So I get trained on business-to-business telecommunications.
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I get thrown on this road in Sydney Road in Melbourne, Australia, and I get told to go sell.
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Well, I didn t know what to say.
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My first door I walk in, I get politely told to leave, which was lovely because shortly after that I got sworn at, I got told to get a real job, and that just kept happening until I got to my 93rd door.
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Well, at that point, and this is what I feel like a lot of people that have staff like this, they don t do the work or they just accept it the way it is.
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Like they ll say, well, I m an introvert, so I ve just got to accept that s the way it s going to be.
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I ll grind it out.
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And so every day they rely on lady luck or I ll just give up, which, you know, in truth, a lot of introverts do as well.
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A lot of extroverts do.
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I was unwilling to do that, so I said, what if there was another way?
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And I decided that if that was going to be the case, I couldn t pick up a Brian Tracy book or a Zig Ziglar book because it would have taken me a year to read that, let alone apply it.
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But I did type in the word sales system into YouTube and all these videos came up.
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And every day I would spend eight hours in the field applying what I learned, eight hours at home practicing the next step or perfecting the one I was doing, 16 hours on the weekend I would practice.
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I know this doesn t sound fun to anyone.
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It wasn t.
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And I m also not suggesting that anyone does this.
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There are smarter ways to do it now.
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But very soon it was like 71 doors, then 43 doors, then 18, then nine, then three.
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About six weeks in, my manager pulls me aside and I thought I was going to get fired.
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He had this look on his face that I d just seen when I lost my job recently.
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And I was the quiet guy that handed my paperwork in downstairs.
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I didn t get along with anyone upstairs.
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I kind of kept to myself.
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So I thought that he was going to have a serious conversation with me about that.
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And he s like, Matt, we re kind of blown away by this, but we
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We just got our national sales figures and it turns out you re the number one salesperson in the company.
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And then what happened to me happened to everybody else in sales leadership.
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Oh, if you could sell, you can manage.
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So they offered me a promotion and I was like, I had no idea how to manage it.
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Like, no worries.
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We ll give you 20 people mud up against the wall.
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see what sticks.
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And salespeople a lot of times fall into management and they re expected to just learn.
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Well, all my 20 people quit within 24 hours.
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But I went back to YouTube and I learned to manage, following a similar process.
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And I got pretty good at it.
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That s how I got promoted seven times in the space of 12 months.
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So I understand for a lot of people, we re not natural born leaders, we re natural born salespeople.
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But don t let that be an excuse.
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Go and learn a process.
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And the one thing I can tell you, the hardest in the world, is as a salesperson that s an extrovert, you can t just say to a lot of people, it s easy, just do this.
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SPEAKER_01
Because it isn t easy for them because they re introverted or because they re extroverted and they like to do things in a different winged way.
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None of that is going to allow you to be successful.
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So yes, you do have to get to methodical process, but yes, you do have to choose one place to win.
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SPEAKER_01
And I would say one of two places.
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The first one is the way people start phone calls, because truthfully, I can t stand this.
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SPEAKER_01
Like a number of people that are selling tech in this world today, and they get on a sales call with a senior leader, even some small businesses, but they get on a sale and they say, so I m glad we can get on a call today.
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SPEAKER_01
Tell me a little bit about your business.
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my first question is, oh, I would love to.
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After checking out my website, what questions do you have?
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And you watch them fall apart because they ve done no research at all.
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So what I suggest is for a lot of introverts, they ve done their research, but they don t advertise it because they ve been told they ve got to ask questions.
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SPEAKER_01
Now, what happens is more often than not, they build small talk into the beginning so the customer takes control of the sale and now they ve lost the deal anyway.
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SPEAKER_01
I can tell you most people lose the deal in the first five minutes.
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SPEAKER_01
So I suggest just training one simple thing, get them to start the call with something as easy as this.
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SPEAKER_01
So glad we can get on a call together today.
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SPEAKER_01
Yes, me too.
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SPEAKER_01
Well, while I ve taken a chance to look at our brief email correspondence, I ve checked out your website, I ve checked out your LinkedIn profile.
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Because a lot of that is static, what I d like to do is take a quick step back, hear a little bit more about you, what you re struggling with, and how I can be the most help to you in the time we have together today.
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SPEAKER_01
It doesn t sound salesy at all, and leave your deck at home.
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SPEAKER_01
And you ll find you have a very different conversation that feels more like you re being invited in to provide a solution.
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For those solution specialists, you probably know now your customers feel more informed than ever before, and they come in with preconceived ideas.
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So if you go straight into the sale, as opposed to coming in as a consultant and hearing what they have to say, and then ask them one question to help them realize they re trying
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SPEAKER_01
to solve a symptom, not the greater cause, it s going to be to your detriment.
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But the number one thing that I would suggest, because that s a really simple implementation to get you ROI, is to do what I spend my life doing sales kickoffs talking about.
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One of our mutual friends, Gerhard Geschwartner, just called me the sales kickoff speaker of the year, and that is introducing storytelling.
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And I don t mean the way most people do it, because the sales people think they tell great stories.
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They don t.
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They use
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you know, little, little examples or, you know, customer ordered this, so we gave it to them.
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Or they use one of those case studies that comes from the marketing team.
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And with a basically say, this customer was so lucky to have met us.
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It s a, it s a feature story all about the company that nobody likes to read.
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I m talking about a story of almost like the story of how you met your husband or wife, your life partner.
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You know, over time you remove little elements that people don t really engage with.
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You embellish perhaps a little bit, truthfully, but embellish a little bit on the things people do enjoy.
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I know for me,
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the story that my wife and I tell about how we met, it s kind of a theatrical masterpiece now.
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You know, I say certain things, she says certain things, we say things together.
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You know, it s just a different experience and that s what I suggest.
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If you
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Don t get everybody to think of their story.
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Tell extroverts they can t use the same story.
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They can t use a different story in every sale.
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What you need to do is say, what is the major three things our product does?
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Or what s the one sales play that s the most important to us right now?
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And what s one story that speaks to the target demographic that we can write, everybody remember, perfect,
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and then roll out to everybody else.
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And that is the thing that I would always suggest.
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Now, I talk about three-dimensional storytelling, which is most people spend their time talking about the person that had his basic problem, barely touching on it.
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Here s what we did, because that s the part you really understand, because you don t really listen to your clients in the beginning.
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So that s why you don t have enough detail.
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And then, yeah, they got an outcome.
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That s it.
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I suggest that 70% of the story is actually at the beginning problem state and the end finalization state.
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And what I mean by that is don t just talk about the real cost of the problem, talk about the opportunity cost of the problem and the emotional cost of the problem.
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And then on the completion, deliver whether all three of those things were done and delivered on.
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What I find is most people, they get so focused on the analysis or it s just a very brief, I don t want to take up much of your time, here s a 20 second example.
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They may as well, I mean, didn t they just go back to jargon?
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Forget the jargon.
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Tell a more detailed story.
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Let people try things on in a more effective way.
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And for the introverts that are listening, there s some real science behind this because when you tell a story, it activates the reticular activating system of the listener and
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the teller s brain.
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It creates artificial rapport.
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It causes your brains to synchronize.
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Introverts are known to be able to create amazing, deep rapport, but they need a head start.
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Story will do that for you.
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For an extrovert, you winging things will create rapport.
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I promise you ll be able to do that, but it s very shallow.
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Stories create this thing that allows people to really feel long-term rapport.
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But even more importantly, people remember up to 22 times more information when embedded into a story.
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So they re actually going to remember all those things you said quickly when you walked out the door.
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The other thing that I love about story, and this is really critical for the people that...
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are extroverted is remember that a lot of the buyers are introverted.
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So you may feel comfortable selling the way you re selling, and you may be bulldozing them or using all this jargon and talking quickly.
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Stories get introverts to lean in and allow them to feel like they re creating rapport.
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and it switches off their logical brain.
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It literally short circuits it, and you speak directly to the emotional brain.
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There are so many scientific benefits to using story over everything else.
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So I suggest to everyone, pick one story, write it out yourself, practice it and perfect it until it s perfect, and then give it to your entire team to learn as it is written.
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Don t accept, oh, I m going to tell it my way.
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And then work on their behavior to actually tell that story in a sale to get to an ROI.
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And you ll have to get them to practice Segway, because they won t know how to do that.
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If you achieve that milestone, they ll then come back to you and say, Mario, what s next?
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What s next?
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What most people do is give them these Herculean sales systems and nobody does anything.
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That was a lot there to take in.
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There is something I want to come back to, and that was talking about something you said a little bit earlier.
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and that was talking about networking.
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And something that came to mind was, especially with only a few minutes left here, that you make a great networker now, right?
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Is that also true of all introverts, that introverts can make great networkers?
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And if so, why?
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Yeah, sure.
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I mean, easy answer is,
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Networking, the way networking s done with the transactional kind of contrived elevator pitch, was kind of derived from door-to-door sales, right?
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Like, Birth of the Salesman talks about the snake oil salesman that would go neighborhood to neighborhood that would just sell things and would burn that door because they re never coming back.
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Networking kind of became the same thing.
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We d walk into a place in New York City and we re like, no one else is going to know, I m never going to see this person again.
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I ll just say whatever I want to say.
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How could I hook them really, really well?
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I believe, firstly, the number one rule in networking is networking is not about you.
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The number one rule in sales is not about you.
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The number one rule of being on a podcast or speaking from stage, it s not about you.
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So why does everyone make it about themselves?
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Well, for an introvert, a lot of times it s a self-confidence issue.
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And the other is that we think we re supposed to, and we re just playing wrong.
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So what I try to bring people back to is the original definition of the word
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to sell is derived from the Scandinavian term to serve.
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And the best way to serve your clients is to get them out of their own way.
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But when you re networking, a lot of times you have to tell them who you re passionate about helping and why you re passionate about getting to a different outcome.
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I ll give you an example.
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You can say, I do this for this group of people even if, which is the standard elevator pitch,
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Or you can say, well, one of the things I love to see, anything in the world is, but what I find that I just hate seeing this is, which is why I m on a mission to do this.
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That s far more compelling, but it s also got nothing to do with you.
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An elevator pitch is I, I, I, I, I. It basically says, you know, I d love to, I d love to get you as a client because I m trying to buy a brand new car and you could really help with that by being a customer.
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The other one is here s the change I m trying to make
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in the world.
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So I believe that the average introvert, again, is terrible at networking if they make it about themselves and they don t follow a structure, but they also want an authentic structure.
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And that is why if they go with a passion mission driving why framework in the networking script, it ll work tremendously well.
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I also believe that extroverts are really good at this as well, but they have to get out of that transactional networking.
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What I find is good networking comes with planning and preparation.
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I don t go to a single networking event.
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that doesn t feel like planned meetings.
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Like I connect with people in advance, I ve done my research on them.
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Otherwise you re going to walk into someone selling you insurance, right?
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I want to walk up to somebody and have a dialogue that is meaningful.
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Now I ve worked with people selling insurance and I ve helped them articulate their passion and mission and help them realize that what they really like supporting is high cashflow businesses, perhaps people that are farmers, like their grandfather or something like that.
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But understanding who your avatar is, being able to articulate your passion and then connecting with people in advance that are that avatar,
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going into a networking meeting doesn t feel scary at all.
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It feels like you re going to meet a bunch of people that you already know a lot about.
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And I see that happen all the time.
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When I worked with Intel, I had this guy say to me, you know, I just, I can, I can talk to you for half an hour because I saw you speak, but I just know nothing about the people in this room.
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And I m like, you re kidding, right?
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Like this, there was an event at, you could have gone on and researched every single one of them.
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Like, why is it that people think they can t do that?
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Meetups, everyone s LinkedIn profiles connected.
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Every single other event has a Facebook group with a photo of the people that came last month.
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There is always a way to research the people.
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You say you don t have time for it, but you do have time to go to the networking event, walk home with a bunch of business cards that do you no value because none of them ever buy anything.
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I m laughing because it reminds me of so many times I used to walk into meetings all the time.
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I m going to wing this.
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I m going to find my person.
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I m going to weed through the crowd.
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And that s so the extrovert inside me.
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Now, of course,
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as a more tenured seller, you recognize the need to be able to do your precursor, your research, who s there, how do you connect with them, booking appointments, scheduling out meetings so that they have valuable time to be able, sorry, so that you can create valuable time with an individual that you truly want to meet with.
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Hey, this has been great, Matt.
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You are a stellar speaker and love having you on the show.
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If somebody wanted to connect with you, what s the best way?
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Is that through LinkedIn, Twitter, email?
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What s the best way to connect with you?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean, so people should definitely just connect with me on LinkedIn.
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Now it does allow you to follow me, not connect with me just because I have way too many connections now, but I would ask you to follow me there.
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But if you have a burning question, there s no introvert left behind process.
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You are able to connect with me.
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I do allow people to do that, but I do that so that people can send me a voice memo.
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LinkedIn has this amazing tool where you can click the microphone button.
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Most people don t use this in selling, by the way, and it s something you should fix.
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It works so well, but you re welcome.
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It limits you to 60 seconds, but if you ve got a question, post it there, and I will always get back to you with an answer because I don t want people to just listen to this.
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Look, if you want to be entertained, go watch Star Wars.
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It s great.
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If you want to actually take action, I m there to answer questions for you.
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It s so funny because when you do send that LinkedIn voice message, it s something that your prospects have rarely seen.
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So when they see it, they re like, what s this?
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And what do they do?
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Click on it.
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So it s a great tool, by the way.
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And that having been said, I do have one final question for you.
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And that is your all time favorite movie.
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What is it?
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So I actually love this movie that isn t actually well known.
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It s called The Warrior.
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And it is a movie about two brothers that the family gets divorced, the mother runs off one way, and the father is an alcoholic.
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And the brothers end up finding each other at an MMA fight.
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And it s this champion of the world MMA, all on the line.
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And it s just such a great movie, but not one that s well known.
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I think it didn t get enough credit.
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Warrior it is, so go out there and take a look at that.
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Hey, for all of you listening in right now, don t turn that dial quite yet.
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If you wanna save 25 hours a month in productivity and learn how to prospect better and sell more with technology that s gonna help you scale your buyer engagement, go to flymsg.io right now and don t turn that dial quite yet.
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Listen to this message right now.
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Thanks for listening to the Modern Selling Podcast.
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Please do me a huge favor and give the Modern Selling Podcast a 5-star rating and review on iTunes.
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Oh, and don t forget, if you d like to save 20 hours or more in a month and increase your productivity,
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Go right now and download Fly Message, that s flymsg.io for free.
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It s your free text expander and personal writing assistant.
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Hey, thanks for listening in and until the next episode, good selling.