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And so I think when you have this desperateness or a passion and you love what you do, you become a stronger communicator.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
0
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
0
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Today we re talking with my friend Nancy Duarte.
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She s a presentation and communication expert, author of the new book, Illuminate, Ignite Change Through Speeches, Stories, Ceremonies, and Symbols.
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Nancy s been around in the game for a while.
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She s an OG presenter, OG communication expert.
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You ve seen her on TED, and a lot of the books that are written about presentation that aren t by her are books that have taken a lot of what she has originated and repackaged it.
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So today, you should listen to this show if you wanna learn what great communicators have in common and how to borrow from their playbook, how to frame yourself as a leader in your business, even if you don t consider yourself a figurehead, and how to learn and master the highest leveraged communication skills for the quickest and most dynamic return on your time and effort for business or for personal reasons.
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So enjoy this one with Nancy Duarte.
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And by the way, if you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes of The Art of Charm and The Toolbox
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where we discuss concepts like body language and nonverbal communication, persuasion, networking, negotiation, mentorship, and everything else we teach here at The Art of Charm.
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If you re in the United States, you can text charmed, that s C-H-E-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
0
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Everywhere else, go to theartofcharm.com.
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Also, at theartofcharm.com slash podcast, you can find the full show notes for this and all previous episodes.
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Alright, here s Nancy Duarte.
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One of the reasons I was interested in talking with you is you re famous for a lot of different reasons, right?
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Slight allergy and having great slides and presentations and techniques on that.
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SPEAKER_00
But I would imagine by this point, you re a little bit sick of talking about three ways to be a charismatic presenter.
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SPEAKER_00
And so I feel like that s a thing that we can stay away from.
0
SPEAKER_00
You asked me when you walked in, what qualifies these guys to be charm experts?
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But I also have to ask, when I first saw the books, I was like, well,
0
SPEAKER_00
So many people teach presentations.
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I mean, what is this public speaking or you teach PowerPoint?
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I mean, come on, what is this really?
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I would like you to tell us a little bit about what you do because it is kind of a unique niche.
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I mean, you go from design firm to just presentations.
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Why narrow it down?
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Why niche so hard?
0
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Yeah.
0
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So I, it was interesting timing because we were a generalist design firm.
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Most of our work though was presentations.
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Apple was the first company to hook up a projector to a computer and they were our largest client.
0
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
0
SPEAKER_01
And so what happened is 2000.com crash was happening same time the book Good to Great came out, Jim Collins  book.
0
SPEAKER_01
And in that book he has a hedgehog concept which is that you should, whatever it is that you can be passionate about, be best in the world at, be profitable at, to do just that one thing.
0
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So I knew that we were best in class at presentation so I
0
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Shuttered the doors on everything which was counterintuitive as an entrepreneur when the economy s crashing to also cut all your services But we did we cut to the core and the people who loved presentations are the ones I kept and we just built amazing industry actually when 2008 came out that s when my first book slide all about
0
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And I didn t have competitors back then, like nobody did what we did.
0
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It was like this reviled medium.
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And we ve changed it into kind of a respected medium and created hundreds of small presentation agencies.
0
SPEAKER_01
I mean, when you create jobs, that s such a blessing.
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Sure.
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Be great if all those clients just work directly for you, of course.
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SPEAKER_00
Look, good consolation prizes, job creation as a whole.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right.
0
SPEAKER_00
You ve been doing this for 25 years, though, so you must have seen a lot of transformations, especially in Silicon Valley.
0
SPEAKER_00
And you mentioned Apple before.
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SPEAKER_00
Steve Jobs was really well known for presentation shops and especially for his evolution, being able to do that over time.
0
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Because if you look at old videos of him, it s
0
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not that amazing.
0
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It s just somebody who s not afraid of the stage.
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But towards the end, it s clear that he s really, really honed in on it.
0
SPEAKER_00
To what extent does that track what you teach and what you do?
0
SPEAKER_00
Because sure, slides, you wrote a whole book about it, but there s more to presentations than just slides.
0
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It s funny, I ve actually transcribed every one of his talks available on public, you know, that s publicly available just to see like, what s the nuance, what s the language and how did he do it?
0
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I have a case study of his in both Resonate and the new book Illuminate.
0
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And I, I think what happens is when he stepped in and had to really drive change, first thing he did when he showed up at Apple,
0
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is he had to move everyone from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS 10.
0
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And it wound up being the largest software migration in history.
0
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It took about five years.
0
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But it was so important.
0
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It was desperate because if the developers didn t move to 10, everything was going to fail.
0
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And so I think when you have this desperateness or a passion and you love what you do, you become a stronger communicator.
0
SPEAKER_01
So that s why like some people kind of work at boring jobs, you know, like why should they become passionate about communicating if they don t even love what they do?
0
SPEAKER_01
So I encourage people to find something else then that you re passionate about, even if it s a nonprofit, because you become a better communicator there, you ll bring those skills back to your job.
0
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It ll just naturally happen.
0
SPEAKER_01
So I think it comes from a place of passion and a commitment to Apple s future.
0
SPEAKER_00
Sure, I can see that with Apple.
0
SPEAKER_00
And how do we sort of niche this or scale this down, I should say, to somebody who just works right now in a job they consider temporary, they re waiting to get that startup job, or they re waiting to get accepted at Google or Facebook, so they re just putting in hours doing something else.
0
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Or even, maybe even earlier than that, they re still in school or they re working at something that they know is temporary, like Chipotle or a movie theater where I worked, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
They re kind of working there and they re thinking, I don t need to work on this skill right now because I can t even use it.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I m always the type that prepares for the future no matter what.
0
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So some of the tools, kind of the speech making or the storytelling that s in my work, I mean, it helps me get my husband to do chores on the weekend.
0
SPEAKER_01
Like it s a persuasive pattern.
0
SPEAKER_00
Can you show us a little bit of that?
0
SPEAKER_00
You don t have to show us, you can teach us a little bit.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, role play it.
0
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So one of the things that happens, I studied storytelling for three years and then I took the insights from storytelling and I looked at the hundred greatest speeches of all time.
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Like Martin Luther King.
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Dr. King, even St.
0
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Francis of Assisi, even great politicians.
0
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There s actually a book called The Hundred Greatest Speeches of All Time.
0
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So I just grabbed that.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right.
0
SPEAKER_00
That was all right.
0
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And I took all the insights from storytelling because the greatest speeches kind of build tension and release.
0
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It has like a pulse, a cadence, like a rhythm to it.
0
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And I wanted to find what is that?
0
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How do you define what that is?
0
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And so what what the pulsing of the building and releasing of story tension comes from the gap between what is and what could be.
0
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So what you would do is you paint a picture of the current realities.
0
SPEAKER_01
Hey, honey, did you notice how messy the kitchen is?
0
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and how hard I ve been working lately.
0
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Just imagine how cheerful I would be if we work together to solve this, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
So there s the gap between painting a picture of a blissful future for him should he happen with the chores.
0
SPEAKER_01
So it s a structural device.
0
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So when you contrast the current realities with the hope of this great way it ll be, the human brain processes contrast
0
SPEAKER_01
I mean, that is how we re wired to process information.
0
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So to speak in a way that shows the contrast, it s a persuasive story form.
0
SPEAKER_00
I would imagine by now, though, the second you start the story arc, he just goes, all right, I ll do it.
0
SPEAKER_00
No, no, no.
0
SPEAKER_00
Oh, so he doesn t see it coming?
0
SPEAKER_01
No, he hasn t quite.
0
SPEAKER_00
So he doesn t quite.
0
SPEAKER_00
He hasn t read your books, obviously.
0
SPEAKER_01
He has read them.
0
SPEAKER_00
Oh, good.
0
SPEAKER_00
I was going to say, huh?
0
SPEAKER_00
He hasn t.
0
SPEAKER_01
He s so lovely.
0
SPEAKER_01
My husband s very lovely.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
You have to say that now.
0
SPEAKER_01
We have an actually super good marriage.
0
SPEAKER_01
34 years.
0
SPEAKER_01
Two weeks ago is our 34 year anniversary.
0
SPEAKER_01
And we work together.
0
SPEAKER_00
Oh, man.
0
SPEAKER_01
And really like each other.
0
SPEAKER_00
Good.
0
SPEAKER_00
See, I still work with my fiancee.
0
SPEAKER_00
Oh, nice.
0
SPEAKER_00
People, when I hired her, though, people were like, this is a terrible idea.
0
SPEAKER_00
This is 100% terrible.
0
SPEAKER_00
Nothing good can come of this.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s going to be awful.
0
SPEAKER_00
You re going to end up ruining your relationship.
0
SPEAKER_00
That has not happened yet.
0
SPEAKER_01
Good.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we sometimes think about writing a book, but we don t know if people will take marriage advice from the presentation lady, but we re thinking about writing about what makes it work.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
0
SPEAKER_00
People take all kinds of advice from me, and you were asking me, and I m supposedly the charm guy.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that s something we got to rethink, too.
0
SPEAKER_00
So maybe you have to pivot to marriage advice, and I ve got to pivot to anything else but charm.
0
SPEAKER_01
Oh, you re charming.
0
SPEAKER_00
Well, now you have to say that, too.
0
SPEAKER_00
Would you say that you took the story arc, the classic story arc that s been around for unchanged forever and kind of updated it?
0
SPEAKER_00
I did watch the TED Talk as well as read the books and there s the Plato three-act structure.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s a straight line, flat line story arc.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t remember each of the points from Freyda s story arc, but it goes like that naturally in an arc.
0
SPEAKER_00
And yours goes like, it looks kind of... Like pumpkin teeth.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yes, it looks like pumpkin teeth.
0
SPEAKER_00
It does.
0
SPEAKER_00
Like half of a zipper.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
Digitally created on a really crappy old computer, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
Like just all straight angles.
0
SPEAKER_00
What is that all about?
0
SPEAKER_00
What s going on?
0
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So that is actually the structure of a great speech that was inspired through the insights that I got through storytelling.
0
SPEAKER_01
And it is that contrast I was just talking about between what is and what could be.
0
SPEAKER_01
So as you re moving along and you establish what is at the beginning of every talk, if you look at what Steve Jobs, he always did kind of a state of the union.
0
SPEAKER_01
So you do kind of stage union, here s the elephant in the room, here s what we re dealing with, here s our financials or whatever is the what is.
0
SPEAKER_01
And then in storytelling there s always an inciting incident where the audience is kind of brought out of balance and then the rest of the whole time is resolving balance to the world.
0
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So what you do is you introduce what could be this new future and then structurally through the whole talk you move between what is, what could
1
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what is, what could be, then you do a call to action and at the end you always end with the new bliss.
1
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Restating how great the world is going to be if we all rally together and do this thing.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, because the principle of recency says they ll remember the last thing you said more than they ll remember the beginning of the middle.
1
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So you want that last thing to bear the kind of promise and hope that you want them to leave the room with.
1
SPEAKER_03
So that was the structure.
1
SPEAKER_03
And I think I analyzed, I don t know, 15 talks or something in Resonate where I annotated.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_03
But I have about 50 more that I ve done since then.
1
SPEAKER_03
So I have slew of tons and tons of talks that analyze its data.
1
SPEAKER_02
Are you going to release like a compendium of this?
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I need to do that.
1
SPEAKER_03
So I have them and I ve delivered them, but I need to do that because people are super interested in it.
1
SPEAKER_02
It must be really tricky to analyze a huge number of talks because they re not all 20 minutes or 15 minutes, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
Some of these are like an hour and a half long.
1
SPEAKER_02
Are you just going like this the whole time?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_03
Well, so what s funny is I m not a digital native, so I don t know Illustrator or any of that.
1
SPEAKER_03
So actually Steve Jobs s 90 minute iPhone launch I did on graph paper.
1
SPEAKER_03
Like I hand wrote the words on graph paper and it was long.
1
SPEAKER_03
It s like 40 foot long, tiny squares of graph paper.
1
SPEAKER_03
So then they had to go in pixel by the minute.
1
SPEAKER_03
You know, once I knew, once I could throw the pros into whether it s what is or what could be, and then the designers went in by the pixel by the second.
1
SPEAKER_02
intern person who now hates you digitize that whole thing?
1
SPEAKER_03
120 people.
1
SPEAKER_03
I have about 65 designers.
1
SPEAKER_03
I have writers.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
So you had a full-timer who now hates you do it instead?
1
SPEAKER_03
I had someone full-time help with the book, the visual parts of the book.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
They re like just looking at their 401k digitizing 8,000 turns.
1
SPEAKER_01
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1
SPEAKER_02
One of the keys in the new book, you ve got the five stages of adventure, dream, leap, fight, climb, and arrive.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s almost like an epic poem in the form of a presentation.
1
SPEAKER_02
What is this torchbearers toolkit?
1
SPEAKER_02
What are these?
1
SPEAKER_02
Why is this important?
1
SPEAKER_03
I appreciate that.
1
SPEAKER_03
I appreciate that you could see the storytelling in it because when you re leading and driving a movement, you re asking people to change.
1
SPEAKER_03
We call the leader a torchbearer, and we call the people coming along the trip with him the travelers, kind of like Frodo.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right.
1
SPEAKER_03
Let s head out and bring a bunch of friends with us and make a difference.
1
SPEAKER_03
And so a torchbearer, if you think about the concept of when and where you even need to bear a torch, usually it s dark, kind of scary place possibly.
1
SPEAKER_03
And a torch only casts enough light to dispel fear.
1
SPEAKER_03
Nearby fear right you can t see for miles and miles miles with a torch and so the leaders role when you re driving change and driving to a new future is.
1
SPEAKER_03
To communicate in a way that makes that short term trip desirable and doable and so that s what you re trying to do is get people to take the next leg and they gonna take the next leg in the next leg for this new desired future.
1
SPEAKER_03
So the processes that you need to understand.
1
SPEAKER_03
So the venture scape is a tool for empathy.
1
SPEAKER_03
The leaders, they declare a dream and then they re like, hurry up and get there.
1
SPEAKER_03
Like just get there.
1
SPEAKER_03
It s not that big of a deal, but it is a big deal.
1
SPEAKER_03
So the minute your travelers hear the dream, they re scared.
1
SPEAKER_03
They feel hopeless.
1
SPEAKER_03
They see, I m going to have to sacrifice my time.
1
SPEAKER_03
I m going to have to sacrifice some of my money.
1
SPEAKER_03
I m going to have to do all this stuff.
1
SPEAKER_03
I don t get paid more.
1
SPEAKER_03
Like that s what they go through.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right.
1
SPEAKER_02
Loss aversion.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, and you have to understand, oh, when I say this, they re going to feel this way.
1
SPEAKER_03
So you need to meet them where they re at.
1
SPEAKER_03
So you cast a dream.
1
SPEAKER_03
You need a moment of inspiration.
1
SPEAKER_03
Then they leap.
1
SPEAKER_03
They need to make a moment of decision.
1
SPEAKER_03
When they re fighting, they need a moment of bravery.
1
SPEAKER_03
When they re climbing, they need a moment of endurance.
1
SPEAKER_03
When they arrive, they need a moment to reflect.
1
SPEAKER_03
and you as the leader create the atmosphere for them to feel the right way at each stage as you re driving them to a new future.
1
SPEAKER_02
I like how the book had different, what do you call it, like polarity, kind of, oh, the dream, it can be a really positive thing, or it can be like this really catastrophic.
1
SPEAKER_02
When you arrive, it could be like, yes, let s bask in the glory of it all, or like, hey, we ve failed, and like, everybody, yeah, but do it as a team.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, so each phase, like the dream phase,
1
SPEAKER_03
You can have a motivating or a warning speech, a motivating story or a warning story, a motivating ceremony or a warning ceremony.
1
SPEAKER_03
And you need to know which one to use.
1
SPEAKER_03
If a cautionary tale is the most important, you need to tell a cautionary tale.
1
SPEAKER_03
So it s really fun and there s a tear out, there s a big matrix on the inside that
1
SPEAKER_03
It s like a guide.
1
SPEAKER_03
I wrote the book.
1
SPEAKER_03
I ve had to pull it out twice to lead my own team.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s great.
1
SPEAKER_03
Oh, I think the people are feeling like this.
1
SPEAKER_03
Oh my God, I was going to communicate like that and I need to be communicating.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was funny when I saw it because I was, of course, instantly pictures full color.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, you got my attention because I m still eight years old when I read books.
1
SPEAKER_02
I noticed that it cut out of the book and I thought there s some element of excitement that you get a prize to hear the sound.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you get a prize in the middle of the book.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it s got the cool laser perforation that s fun to use, but only works once.
1
SPEAKER_02
But it is kind of like this nifty bonus thing in the middle of the book that you could put up on your wall and go, all right, when I m managing people, I ve got to do one of these things.
1
SPEAKER_02
Or when I have to give a talk, I can
1
SPEAKER_02
go with the structure, which is great because if you re anything like me, when you read a book, you think, I m keeping this around for reference.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it goes somewhere and you never see it again.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then when you need to refer to it, it s really not that quick, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
You just look for it online.
1
SPEAKER_02
And if you can t find it, you give up.
1
SPEAKER_02
At least that s everyone under 40 so far that I ve ever met in my life.
1
SPEAKER_02
With these stories, with your arc or with your story zipper, you need to understand what moves others.
1
SPEAKER_02
You need to be able to inspire action with your words.
1
SPEAKER_02
What if I m a leader that really is just reluctant to even say like I m a leader?
1
SPEAKER_02
Maybe I just manage the place.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t feel like I m going to stand up there and Steve Jobs this thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
Look, let s not take it too seriously.
1
SPEAKER_02
I work at Walmart or I work at Gymboree across the street.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t need to make this too dramatic.
1
SPEAKER_02
I m no Steve Jobs.
1
SPEAKER_02
I m no charismatic leader.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, it s been heartbreaking for me to see how many people self-select out of leading.
1
SPEAKER_03
It s funny because one of the favorite stories I love is a letter that my niece wrote.
1
SPEAKER_03
She s 11 years old.
1
SPEAKER_03
She s never read my books, never been to workshops.
1
SPEAKER_03
I did not help her create this.
1
SPEAKER_03
But she did an impassioned plea to her dad, like wrote out this like,
1
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I have to have a mouse.
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Yeah, her whole life, like impassioned plea, and it followed the form perfectly.
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So I think when you really care about something, and I can t believe everyone just bumbles through life not having anything that lights their fire, anything where they re like, I need to see this evil reversed.
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I need to see this justice come to the unjust.
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I just can t imagine that there isn t something that lights people up enough, granted she s 11 and her thing was a mouse, is to get yourself in a place where you care enough to make a difference.
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Did she get the mouse?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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You have to give her the mouse at that point.
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I think though with leaders, it s not just, I can t do this, but there s probably also a certain percentage of people that think, even if I did do this, that my team is just going to think it s ridiculous.
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So they re just going to roll their eyes or upper management s not going to let me do it.
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And I m not at the top, so I can t start.
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communicating like this.
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How do you train people when they call you in?
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I mean, I would imagine people at the top call you in to train them, but then they go, I need all my managers to know this.
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And then that s maybe the point where you reach a little bit of resistance.
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Like, look, the CEO called you in, we re going to frigging humor you.
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And then we re going to eat lunch and go home.
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Right.
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There s got to be some element of that.
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How do you motivate them with your words to actually take this stuff seriously?
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Yeah.
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It s better when there s a commitment from the top.
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Yeah, of course.
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The bigger frustration comes when somebody at the bottom has bought into this and then they fight hard to say, hey, we could be a world-class brand if we communicated like this.
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So it s fun when we get to work with a leader because then we build a whole system.
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Like we give them tools, we give the revolutionary tools.
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I actually have a call right after this, like 30 minutes after this talk with a CIO of one of the largest public companies in the world.
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SPEAKER_01
Same thing needs to transform how her geeky.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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Self-styled.
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Yeah, tech introverts communicates because technology is your partner now.
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It s not just something that happens in the bowels of the business anymore.
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So now she has to transform these analytical types into storytellers, into ones that can communicate and sell their idea.
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SPEAKER_01
So it s happening across the board.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, if you even look at the core curriculum that was introduced, it really is about articulating.
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How do you articulate your subject matter?
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And so it s an incredible skill.
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So if you look at, we emailed each other, social media with each other, but now we re in a room together and now we have the opportunity to connect in a very human and emotional way.
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But so many people don t when they re in the room, they don t.
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And if you have content that emotionally connects them and you deliver it in a way that s amazing.
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SPEAKER_01
People will choose you.
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They get to make a choice every time they meet people.
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SPEAKER_01
They choose you.
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SPEAKER_01
And I don t know why people self-select out.
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SPEAKER_01
That s been the most heartbreaking thing about Illuminate.
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The minute they know it was written for a leader, they re like, oh, I don t need that.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t lead.
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I think everyone is called to lead.
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And you have to choose to accept the call.
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It s like a mantle.
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Like Frodo s like, oh my god, a ring just landed in my hand.
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And he didn t go, dink, and throw it over his shoulder.
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He took the call.
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And I think a lot of people refuse it.
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And that s why we wrote a whole little, like a poem called The Torchbearer s Calling because it s just something burns inside of you and you have to get it out.
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SPEAKER_01
And you will do everything you can to learn how to communicate in a way that ll drive people to see this dream reality.
2
SPEAKER_00
For a list of all of our amazing sponsors and discount codes to get great deals with those sponsors, visit theartofcharm.com slash advertisers.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now, back to the show.
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SPEAKER_00
What if I am naturally a little bit more shy, a little bit more introverted?
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I mean, I m not gonna ask for tips for getting on stage and ditching stage fright.
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SPEAKER_00
I think that s a little basic.
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But I do think there are people that do self-select.
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And how do you teach even a CEO that hires you and goes, look, this is my weak area.
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I m not sure I can do this.
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How do you start somebody like that off?
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Because you re going to the top.
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You re not getting them to look people in the eye when they re in the audience and then go sit down.
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funny is the hardest thing about getting people to be transparent and to use story and storytelling is that if you look at the structure of a story, a three-act structure, there s this likable person.
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They went through a really tough time.
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Like you think about the middle of a movie, it s like they lose the girl, they get bit by the dragon, they re missing an arm, they still have to climb out of a pit.
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Like it s hard, but that whole experience changed them.
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What s hardest for leaders that are trying to communicate, introverted, extroverted, all of them,
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is to stand up in front of people and say, life was hard for me once, but it changed me.
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And there s no better way to connect to others than that way.
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So, so often more than introverted types feel like me standing up and telling a story is sharing fiction.
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I should just tell facts.
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I should just be repeating research and facts.
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And that s not true.
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Like having a connection, I ll follow a leader that s tried and failed before I ll follow a leader who pretends they never fail.
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And so you have to put it out there and create a connection
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to really lead.
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That s why people have devoted followers.
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So I think introvert, extrovert, no matter what, that s the hardest part is to be very transparent in how you communicate and when you re leading through storytelling.
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So basically the vulnerability that a lot of people think is actually their weakness could be turned into the strength that they have.
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It gives them the credibility to become a leader in the first place.
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SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
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SPEAKER_00
And you ve got to go through the whole therapy session with them probably to get them there in the first place.
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SPEAKER_01
Sometimes we pull stories out there like I could never tell that one in public.
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SPEAKER_01
But we try to create a little catalog and coach them in when to use the kinds of stories and where and when and how.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, the timing on the book was interesting because I just had watched part of this Tony Robbins documentary on Netflix.
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SPEAKER_00
Have you seen it?
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SPEAKER_00
I haven t seen it yet.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I just watched part of it because it s long.
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SPEAKER_00
It s something you take in small doses, in my opinion.
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SPEAKER_00
But I m not super experienced with his stuff, but I was reading the story arcs and vulnerability and all this stuff.
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And of course, the regular art of charm concepts and nonverbal communication and rapport building and all that stuff.
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Now look at this guy the first thing he s doing is like this is how my life was screwed up and then he s like who else can identify with that and pick that person and he s talking with him and he s breaking their psychological space and he s getting in there real deep and there s always the story arc when he s talking when other people are talking he almost.
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He ll even force them into the story arc as he ll say well and then what happened.
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creating like a vacuum to pull them along, which I believe you talk about in your TED Talk as well.
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And so when you see people who ve really mastered this stuff, later on Steve Jobs type stuff, where he s really, really crushing it, it s following most of the principles that you have in the book, they probably just didn t have names for them.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I get asked like, Hey, did Dr. King use your materials?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no, my first birthday was the day before that.
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I have a dream.
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SPEAKER_00
Nice.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s there.
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I think it s been part of the human condition and how we communicate when we have something very important to us, whether it s a mouse or a massive software migration or civil rights movement.
2
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When it s important to you, you work hard on how you communicate it.
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You work with a lot of CEOs.
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The people you train are super high performers.
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SPEAKER_00
What do you find they have in common when it comes to their communication habits?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s funny because we work at the highest level and then we also have, we work with like engineers too.
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SPEAKER_01
Like I think the patterns are all kind of the same.
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I know that if they don t nail this skill, their careers are at a standstill.
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They won t move forward.
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So a lot of people are not getting promoted.
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SPEAKER_01
So if the CEO calls us just because there s a really critical or careful piece of communication or rallying to do, pretty much everyone else under that, it s blocking them from their career advancement almost always.
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SPEAKER_00
So what do you find that they re doing right, and what do you find that they re doing wrong?
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SPEAKER_00
Because these are people who operate at a high level, so it s kind of the same problems as you would with, oh, well, this person looks at the ground when they speak.
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SPEAKER_00
It s not going to be something that simple.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s interesting because we ve thought a lot about how hard it is when you re following a leader or when you are working with a leader to get them to be self-aware.
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SPEAKER_01
Like, of how they re coming across, right?
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SPEAKER_01
Because they just, they re just commanding, they just kind of dictate from a perch, and they don t care because they re getting it done.
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SPEAKER_01
All that matters to them is they re getting it done, and they don t understand how the people around them feel while they re getting it done.
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SPEAKER_01
And so that s why a lot of the models in my books are actually models for empathy.
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SPEAKER_01
So it s like, picture it this way, you know, and feel for a moment what it feels like to be your audience.
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SPEAKER_01
So it s very audience centric.
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SPEAKER_00
Do you get resistance from that though when you re talking with like an Elon Musk who s like, feel what?
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SPEAKER_00
No, get out of here.
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SPEAKER_01
I haven t spoken to him.
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SPEAKER_01
I would tell him straight up.
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SPEAKER_00
Enjoy that one.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, there is resistance to kind of tap into your emotions and all that stuff.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so you can t lead with that.
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SPEAKER_01
You can t go straight there.
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SPEAKER_01
So the power of Resonate, I think, and that s what the TED Talk was based on, is the data.
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I mean, the hundreds of speeches that I analyzed that showed that there is a building of tension and releasing it.
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You can have all information and use that form and not go straight to vulnerable, not tell a personal story arc.
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But that s why now our body of work is getting into now.
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now you need a narrative about who you are and why this is important to you.
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It can t only be about data that contrasts enough to persuade.
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SPEAKER_01
And so it s been really interesting as people are starting to open up to that and understand its power.
2
SPEAKER_00
Finally, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Finally, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
I hate to be really general when you ve written such a beautiful book, but what aspects do you think of human communication, our communication are fixed, and which elements are flexible?
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s super, nobody s ever asked me that.
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I do think that there s a natural style everybody has, like all the men in my family are introverts and my daughter and I are extroverts.
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SPEAKER_01
So I think there s some people that are just more comfortable like, yeah, I ll just get up and wing it.
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SPEAKER_01
The interesting thing about that is extroverts are totally comfortable getting up and winging it.
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An introvert will plan and they will have such thoughtful things to say, right?
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SPEAKER_01
We ll just wing it and do okay.
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SPEAKER_01
If you can get an introvert to actually, they ll work hard on it and they ll craft their words and they ll do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s just getting them to open their mouth and get up to say something.
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So I think that the more classic introverts has to work harder on just wanting to have a voice and have it be heard.
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SPEAKER_01
And I think the extroverts need to be working harder on
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just think for a second before you open your mouth to be more effective.
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SPEAKER_01
So there s there s kind of both that work against them.
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SPEAKER_00
Right.
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SPEAKER_00
So our personality type or whatever you might call that our communication paradigm might be introvert or extrovert.
2
SPEAKER_00
But where there is flexibility, where there is momentum or motion anyway, is the ability to tell the introvert or have them step on the gas a little bit.
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SPEAKER_00
And with the
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extrovert to reel it in a little bit so that maybe they put in a couple of milliseconds of thought into whatever they re saying.
3
SPEAKER_00
Sunny, I think like there s a temperament that fixates on the future and there s temperaments that fixate on the present or past.
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SPEAKER_00
So I m very future focused.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I feel like I m that way.
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I m constantly dreaming.
3
SPEAKER_00
Is that called worrying all the time?
3
SPEAKER_00
No, I think we realize that we re headed to another place and we want to be prepared to be at the right place in the future.
3
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I think that s the leader s role is we re to anticipate the future and make sure all the people that travel with us are at the right place in the future or they don t have jobs.
3
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And I like my husband s very present.
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He s very past present.
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And I needed to be married to someone like that or our kids probably wouldn t have turned out.
3
SPEAKER_02
What does that look like?
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s just like even my son last night we were talking about he was I just think about today because I gave both my kids a very forward facing document.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s all theory.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
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SPEAKER_00
But this is how I anticipate my personal future is going to roll out.
3
SPEAKER_00
Let s talk through this.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
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SPEAKER_00
And we had a whole talk.
3
SPEAKER_00
He goes, I m just concerned about the present.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t even think this way.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I said, well, when I was built, he s an entrepreneur building his business.
3
SPEAKER_00
For 20 years, I just had to be focused on the present, on my business.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now I finally get to think about shaping the future.
3
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And I think that s what leaders, so managers manage the present, but leaders invent the future and drive people toward it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s the biggest difference.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I think besides introvert and extrovert, there s also, are you more present facing or are you more future facing?
3
SPEAKER_00
And those two things also drive different kinds of behavior that you need to have as a communicator.
3
SPEAKER_02
Awesome.
3
SPEAKER_02
Thank you very much.
3
SPEAKER_02
Thank you.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was great to meet you.
3
SPEAKER_02
Likewise.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, she s sharp as a tack.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, she really has amazing communication skills.
3
SPEAKER_02
She s taught the best, she s learned from the best, and most importantly, she has studied just about everybody in the game when it comes to dynamic, charismatic communicators that really have this stuff dialed in.
3
SPEAKER_02
If you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Nancy on Twitter, we ll have that linked in the show notes, as well as her books and other resources that we mentioned here on the show today.
3
SPEAKER_02
You can tap the screen on your phone right now, if you re listening on your phone, the little cartoon icon of AJ and I, the show art, and you can see the show notes right on your phone.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m also on Twitter, at The Art of Charm.
3
SPEAKER_02
Boot Camps, our live programs here at the Art of Charm.
3
SPEAKER_02
Details on that at bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
3
SPEAKER_02
This is a life-changing program.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s sold out months in advance because of that, so if you re even thinking about it a little bit, get in touch with us.
3
SPEAKER_02
We ll get some info out to you so you can plan ahead.
3
SPEAKER_02
Also, we have our Social Capital Challenge.
3
SPEAKER_02
You can text CHARMED to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444 anywhere in the U.S., or go to theartofcharm.com slash challenge.
3
SPEAKER_02
The challenge is about improving your networking and connection skills, inspiring those around you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you, and we ll email you our Fundamentals Toolbox that I mentioned earlier in the show, videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward.
3
SPEAKER_02
it ll make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed in the US to 33444.
3
SPEAKER_02
For full show notes for this and all previous episodes, head over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
3
SPEAKER_02
This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFilippo.
3
SPEAKER_02
Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
3
SPEAKER_02
Show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
3
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
3
SPEAKER_02
Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
3
SPEAKER_02
So stay charming, and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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SPEAKER_01
Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.