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This is the art of charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re talking with Amy Cuddy.
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She s a social psychologist with one of the most popular TED Talks in the world with nearly 35 million views, also author of the book Presence.
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Today we ll be talking about, surprise, presence, authenticity, how to bring out the best version of ourselves virtually on command, nonverbal communication, and social power versus personal power.
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All that and more in this episode of AOC.
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And with that, welcome to the Art of Charm.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
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If you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the toolbox where we discuss body language, nonverbal communication, persuasion, networking,
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negotiation, and everything else we teach here at AOC.
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In the US, just text charmed to 33444.
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That s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
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Everywhere else, go to theartofcharm.com.
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We may not have all the right answers, but we definitely have all the right questions.
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All right, let s talk to Amy Cuddy.
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So thanks for coming on the show, I appreciate it.
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You re welcome, thanks for having me.
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First, let s define presence, because it s kind of one of those concepts that can mean nothing or a lot of things at the same time, and it s definitely, along with other words that we ll use later on in the show, such as authenticity, it can be overused by people who don t really know what the heck they re talking about.
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Yeah, it s exactly like authenticity.
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People use the word all the time, and you see employees nodding their heads, but they re secretly thinking, I don t think I know what this means, but maybe everyone else knows what this means.
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So it s one of those words, but you also hear it used in yoga classes and outside of the workplace in domains of life that are focused on things like mindfulness, which is also another term that people don t fully understand.
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But the way I define presence, I mean, you just have to choose what it means, you know, if it s something that you re interested in.
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And based on the psychological research, I think that presence is not this grand concept
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that belongs on a pedestal.
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It s not sort of a permanent state that you reach eventually in your life if you work at it long enough.
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No one ever reaches a permanent state of presence.
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It s impossible because we re human and there are always thoughts that are poking through, right?
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It s just impossible.
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So I ask people to, you know, step back from that
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kind of stereotype of presence that became, I think, popular in the last part of the 20th century, really, and think of it instead as something that occurs in moments, that you should really focus on the moments that are really stressful for you, which tend to be high-stakes situations that involve some component of social evaluation.
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But what it means to me is
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the ability to be attuned to and comfortably able to express the best parts of yourself.
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It is about authenticity, but it s not about being unfiltered or loud or playing your music too loud at work.
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I mean, it s not that I want people to just be exactly who they are and say whatever s on their mind all the time.
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I want them to be the self that they are in their best moments.
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So if you think back over your life to your best moments,
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Who were you in those best moments and how can you be that person more of the time?
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When we re able to do that, we really are able to engage with what s really happening in these stressful situations as opposed to what we fear is happening.
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So we re not thinking about what we think other people think of us or what we should have said a minute ago or what might happen after this interview because it doesn t go well.
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We re thinking about what s actually happening and able to respond to that.
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And that s really what ultimately presence is.
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It s bringing your best self to these situations, which allows you to engage with what s really happening in a meaningful and substantive way.
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What I really loved about this book, it s essentially a blueprint for a lot of what we teach at the Art of Charm, especially in the first few days of boot camp, presence and the ability to get out of your own head and produce who you are in your best moments more often, ideally.
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But first, what got you interested in this subject?
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You had kind of a major setback during your university years.
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Researchers, I think especially social science researchers, when they re asked why they study what they study,
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kind of put it together retrospectively.
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Like I don t think that we actually know at the time that something is getting us interested in a certain topic.
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We just look back and go, oh, all of these things happened and led me to this.
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There are lots of pieces in that story.
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But the one that you re referring to is the head injury that I had when I was a sophomore in college.
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So I was in a very bad car accident.
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I was thrown out of a car going 90 miles per hour.
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you know, had a serious traumatic brain injury.
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So I woke up in a head injury kind of rehab ward and had been withdrawn from school and was told that
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I had lost 30 IQ points, and would probably not finish college, and was sort of lucky to be alive, and that at least I m high-functioning, and all of the things that you kind of hear, the kind of insensitive feedback that you hear physicians give people in movies, that s sort of how it was for me.
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Right, like at least you re not dead, but you probably won t be able to do much besides watch TV.
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Yeah, you re so lucky and you re like, really?
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Because I think I got thrown out of a car going 90 miles per hour.
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That probably wasn t very lucky.
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It s very funny how people define luck.
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I m very glad that I survived, obviously, but it was a real struggle for me.
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What happens with traumatic brain injury, I think, is really unique from other kinds of physical trauma.
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Because if you break your femur, doctors are pretty good.
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I mean, the expertise is pretty solid around that, around your knowledge of different kinds of breaks of the femur.
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And so they re pretty good at telling you what your prognosis is and what your recovery will look like and how long will it take.
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That s not the case with traumatic brain injury, really at all.
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I mean, we re still, I think, just sort of scratching the tip of the iceberg.
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What happens when you have a traumatic brain injury, especially this kind of acceleration injury, which is very common in car accidents.
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So it s not as if a bullet is entering your brain or you re having a stroke.
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It s not localized.
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A traumatic brain injury, an acceleration injury, is one in which your brain is shaking back and forth against the inside of your skull.
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And it s not really meant to do that.
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You know, you ve got cerebrospinal fluid for a reason.
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It s supposed to be sort of cushioning your brain, preventing it from touching your skull, which is protecting your brain, but it s never really supposed to touch your brain.
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What happens is because you re sort of different layers of your brain or different densities, understandably, when your brain is shaking like that and hitting your skull, which they call a contracoup injury.
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In addition to that, the different layers are moving at different speeds.
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And so they re kind of moving against each other as opposed to with each other.
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And that means that axonal connections throughout your brain
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are being stretched or torn.
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They call them shearing forces.
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And that also means that there s no specific injury necessarily.
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Or if there is, you know, it s kind of a black box.
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I mean, doctors are not going to be able to figure it out from looking at a scan of your brain.
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You re different in every way.
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The way you think is different.
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The way you feel is different.
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The way you move may be different.
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It affects your vision.
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It can affect your speech.
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It s everything.
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And so you have really lost your former self to some extent.
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And for a lot of people with traumatic brain injuries, I think it s very common to feel a sense of lost identity and not even remembering what your former identity was.
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So it s very hard to reconstruct.
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you can t pretend to be smarter because you ve lost 30 IQ points, right?
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You can t go, well, I m just gonna start using bigger words in my vocabulary.
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It s not something you can do and be like, well, I m just gonna fake being an able-bodied scientist and writer, even though that s gone.
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Right, and you also can t fake being happy.
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You know, if people say, oh, you re different, you re depressed, you re anxious.
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You can t say, okay, I ll stop being anxious and depressed.
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I ll stop.
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I ll start being calm and happy.
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So, you know, that s part of it too.
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People are disappointed because you may not be the fun loving, you know, free spirit that you used to be or.
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Yeah, you might not be as funny or like there s so many ways in which you change.
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And so you also lose people because, well, I mean, I think people often lose people after trauma because people don t know how to deal with it.
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They do in the days immediately following a trauma, but they disappear.
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So you also lose people and I was 19 and you know, friendships are so important at that age.
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And that was really hard too, because they re moving on with their lives.
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And at first it s like, Oh my gosh, this horrible thing has happened.
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We all want to be there.
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But you know, that doesn t last even in the worst kinds of
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trauma.
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You know, you see people lose children.
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And at first, everyone s there.
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And a year later, you know, people aren t thinking about it anymore.
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They ve moved on with their lives.
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So for a number of reasons, you lose people, you lose your identity, you lose people.
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You know, for me, I also lost my livelihood, I guess you could say, the way that I spent my days, the thing that I cared about the most other than my sort of my relationships, which was school, I was really kind of
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Sort of starting from scratch, I guess, but I would say it s worse than starting from scratch, because people have expectations that you can t meet.
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You re not a brand new person, you re a different person, and that s disappointing and scary to people.
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at presence as a way to view challenges, sort of the opposite of dread and anxiety.
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In the book, you get into discussions about investments and venture capitalists and pitches and things like that, nonverbal communication.
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I would love to talk about that because nonverbal communication is something that we study and teach a lot here at AOC, and what you ve researched backs it up 100%.
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I m keen to get into that.
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Yeah, well, so I didn t at the time think that I was gonna be studying presence one day.
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You know, it took me four years to even go back to college.
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And so I graduated four years after my high school classmates, because I had so much trouble processing information.
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But, you know, everything around school became such a daunting, stressful challenge for me.
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I mean, it became threatening.
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And so, you know, before doing something like giving a talk in class,
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My response was not in the normal range of nervous.
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It was like a frightened animal that s about to be attacked by a tiger.
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And that s not adaptive.
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You know, I think that people have not evolved beyond that fight or flight response in many situations.
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I mean, there are many situations where our body and minds are really overreacting.
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and might save us if we re being chased by a predator, but not gonna help us if we re walking into a class where we re gonna give a five minute talk.
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It s basically just going to undermine everything that we need to do well.
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And so I was not able at all to be present.
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I was totally distracted by messing up, by what everybody thought of me, by what it was gonna mean for my future.
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And I was just in a death spiral in my mind as I was doing these things.
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So I was everything but present.
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But one of the other things that happens when you feel like a frightened animal.
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is that your body does things that frightened animals do, which is to contract and wrap up, you know, to coil up into the fetal position and try to be invisible, right?
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You don t want to be picked off by a predator.
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You are protecting all of your vital organs from something that might grab you.
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You also want to signal submissiveness because you don t want to anger those who do have power because you could be punished for
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acting powerful when you don t actually have power.
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So your body kind of betrays you and starts to collapse in order to protect itself, but you don t need to be doing it.
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Even the first time I got in a car after the accident, I wasn t driving during my car accident.
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So I was, for me, being a passenger was really terrifying because I felt like I had no control at all.
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And so I got into the car the first time and I immediately went into the fetal position.
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Like I pulled my knees up to my chest and I wrapped my arms around my knees.
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And I remember feeling at the moment like these little insects that I used to play with when I was a kid that we called pill bugs.
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They re like tiny little armadillos.
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And when you touch them, they roll up into this little ball.
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You know, because they re scared, right?
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They re protecting themselves from this giant.
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So I remember thinking that I looked like a pill bug when I did that.
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I didn t connect the dots until later, but I do remember feeling like I was acting like a frightened animal.
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What I wish I had done then, you know, it s sort of like if I knew then what I know now, I would have forced myself to open up because what we do when we feel confident and relaxed is expand our bodies.
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We have our shoulders back and down as opposed to up and forward.
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We have our chest open.
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Our arms are relaxed and away from our bodies.
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We aren t wrapping our legs and our ankles up.
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We re not wrapping ourselves up with our hands.
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We are not trying to protect ourselves from threatening others.
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Now, the thing is, that s what we do when we feel confident, but what our research has shown consistently is that doing that also makes us feel confident and safe.
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And so if I had tricked myself into acting not like a frightened animal, but acting like a safe, powerful animal, I probably would have recovered faster.
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Right, so the mind follows the body, essentially, and vice versa.
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Now let s get back to Amy Cuddy.
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And it looks like in your research, you looked at some venture capital pitches, and the strongest predictor of who got the money was not the credentials or the content of the pitch.
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The strongest predictor of who got the money were the traits of confidence, comfort level, passionate enthusiasm.
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In other words, those who succeeded were fully present, and that was palpable by the investors.
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And that came through in nonverbal ways.
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How do we evaluate or demonstrate presence then?
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Right, that was actually a study by Lakshmi Balachandra.
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She looked at more than 150 venture capital pitches and everyone had cleared a bar, right?
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There were no crazy ideas in this sample.
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So I don t mean to say that you can have a totally kooky idea and get funded.
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The ideas had integrity.
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But what predicted the outcomes were these qualities that I believe are the manifestations of being present.
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So yeah, confidence without arrogance, this sort of grounded enthusiasm,
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and also kind of harmonious verbal and nonverbal behavior, so comfortable behavior.
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The funny thing about presence and authenticity is that they, of course, can t be faked, but you can t fake authenticity.
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It s then no longer authenticity.
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And when we try to, what happens is we come across in
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a asynchronous way.
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So our words don t match what our bodies are doing.
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So we might be telling a happy story, but our body is not doing the things that it does when it s happy.
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I m giving you really broad brush examples.
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No, it s okay.
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We call that incongruence here at AOC.
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Sure.
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Okay.
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So it s incongruence and that s exactly what you see, as you know, when people are lying.
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So the best way to tell if somebody is deceiving you intentionally is not to look at things like eye contact, it s to look for these asynchronies or for incongruence, for the leaks.
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Because as you know as well, when we are trying to tell one story and suppress another story, which is what we re doing when we re being inauthentic or intentionally lying,
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What happens is it takes enormous amount of cognitive bandwidth.
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You re telling one story that s really not true and you re trying to communicate the emotions that go with this untrue story and you re trying to suppress the true story and the emotions that go with the true story in addition to suppressing the conflict that you feel about lying or being inauthentic or the anxiety that you feel about not being present.
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that leaks out.
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And even if people can t articulate it, they pick up on it.
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They don t like it.
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They pull away from you when you do that.
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They don t trust you.
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It really, really undermines trust and it makes it very difficult to connect with people.
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So that s one of the things that comes out.
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People also, when they re being inauthentic and not able to be present, another thing that they do is
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They convey arrogance instead of confidence, and people get those things confused.
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People think that that s a way to fake confidence, that arrogance is some kind of proxy for confidence.
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It s not.
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It s not the same thing.
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Arrogance is a smokescreen for insecurity.
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You know, it s a wall that people put up when they don t want to be challenged.
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It s like, leave me alone.
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I already have all the answers.
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I don t need you.
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Well, fine, that might get you through that moment without being challenged, but I ll tell you, it does not build relationships.
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those people are not gonna call you back to work with you again.
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You know?
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Right.
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We re trying to constantly manage that impression.
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When we re being authentic, we re trying to manage that impression we re making on others, and it results in a very unnatural choreography, which you said takes up too much cognitive bandwidth.
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And of course, it becomes just bad acting at that point.
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That s exactly what it is.
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And really, you have to be a fantastic actor to be able to pull that off.
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And most of the best actors can t even pull that off.
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It does take a lot of cognitive bandwidth.
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And the research shows this really clearly.
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The more we try to manage the impression we re making on others, by focusing on what we think the others want, the worse the impression becomes that we re actually making on others because we come across as fake.
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People don t like that.
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So I often tell people that if they want to make a better impression on others, they need to not manage the impression they re making on others, but focus on the impression they re making on themselves.
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Because if you feel good about yourself, if you feel confident, if you feel safe and comfortable going in, that s what comes out.
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That s what authentically comes out.
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So it s kind of a funny paradox that, you know, to make a better impression on others, you can t actually manage the impression that you re making on others.
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Right, and that sounds like, is presence mostly extroversion?
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Because if you re constantly acting in one way, or you re constantly putting something out there in one way, that would be something that extroverts would be good at.
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But if it s managing the impression on yourself, actually it seems like introverts are at least every bit as likely to demonstrate presence, or possibly even better at doing so.
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And this is something I feel very strongly about.
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I mean, I am an extrovert, but one of my best friends is the leader and spokesperson of the introvert, Susan Cain, who wrote Quiet.
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And she and I absolutely 100% are in alignment about this.
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She s given a voice to introverts by allowing them to be who they are and by liberating them by getting rid of this sort of extrovert ideal and introvert stigma.
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Introverts are much better able to be present and not feel distracted or feel like imposters.
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I don t think that extroverts have any advantage here.
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I think that that is
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a misunderstanding that we have that kind of comes out of the Dale Carnegie tradition, where, you know, it s about winning friends and influencing people, and being charismatic.
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And it s almost like smoke and mirrors, like keeping them entertained, and they won t be able to see where the weaknesses are.
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And I think we ve moved beyond that era.
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And it s not just
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the work that I m doing but if you look at the work by Brene Brown and writing by Liz Gilbert and Cheryl Strayed and and Susan Cain and Simon Sinek and all of this work is not about being this sort of magnetic charismatic figure who s keeping everyone entertained and it s not about being fearless it s about
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pushing through your fears long enough to show people who you are.
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I think that s where the rubber hits the road.
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People then walk away from those situations feeling that they did the best they could and they can accept whatever the outcome is because they know that they showed up.
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Exactly, yes.
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I mean, we know that we automatically form an impression of every person with whom we interact, and we also know that we need to practice the components of presence, and relegate them, hopefully, to the level of habit, because once they re practiced, they become easier to bring out of yourself, which, of course, results in more slash better presence.
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and that s just something it seems like your work and that of those who you mentioned is starting to discover and hopefully we re able to teach everybody who comes through the door here at AOC, which is I think why it s such a great lineup.
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So essentially the impression you re making on yourself serves the impression that you make on others.
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Is that accurate, an accurate conclusion?
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Yes, absolutely.
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It does.
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It s just that the impression that you make on others can t be the primary outcome variable that you re worried about.
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The mediator is the impression that you ve made on yourself.
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That s what s driving the more positive impression that you make on others.
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So that s exactly right.
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that you feel confident and good going in and you feel comfortable being who you are and showing people who you are.
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And you re much better able to convey your conviction and excitement about whatever it is you re talking about, whether it s about an idea that you re pitching, whether it s about, you know, an issue that you care about, or whether it s about your excitement about a potential job.
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You can communicate the extent to which you believe your own story when you re not focused on managing that impression that you re making on others.
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Now, this sort of leads to one of the common objections that we get when people look at this type of work and look at Art of Charm, for example.
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They say, well, you know, in my country, this doesn t work, or in my state or in my organization, this doesn t work.
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But it seems like this is something that has biological roots and therefore would work across cultures.
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Yeah, I mean, first, I think I would say that the general principles, you know, I m a social psychologist.
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I am looking for human universals.
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and breaking it down to really sort of building block, very basic components.
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And I think that these qualities that I ve talked about in the manifestation of presence, where you believe your story and you re confident without being arrogant and you re enthusiastic and, you know, and harmonious, those things are compelling everywhere in the world.
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Now, exactly what they look like is going to differ because the sort of paint colors differ, right?
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The framework is the same.
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The specific elements of the picture might differ from culture to culture.
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But the work that we do looking at using these expansive postures to prepare your mind, right?
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So back to the frightened animal
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be holding yourself in the fetal position before you go into something like a job interview.
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You want to be holding yourself in an expansive, open way.
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You want to be taking up your fair share of space because that is then signaling to your mind and your nervous system, not that those things are separate, but sometimes I feel like I need to say it that way.
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You re signaling to your nervous system in your mind that you are safe
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and that you deserve to be there, you have power, and when we feel powerful, we can access our skills and our knowledge and our values.
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There s no wall that s sort of separating us from those things.
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We re able to access them.
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So how do we then practice this from a very practical standpoint?
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Are we talking about power posing?
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That s one way.
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I love that that idea is so sticky and it took off and I ve got all kinds of Wonder Woman stuff sitting around my office right here because people send it to me all the time.
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I love that people have really run with that idea.
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That s only one part of it.
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And just to be clear, when we say power opposing, I m talking about
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adopting a very expansive posture like the Wonder Woman or Superman pose or the victory pose where you throw your arms up in the air and lift your chin or sitting in a chair at your desk with your feet up on your desk and leaning back with your hands behind your head.
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Those are really dominant postures that you don t really want to do in front of other people.
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They re things that you do before you walk in to optimize your brain to really feel confident and safe going in.
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But you just do that for a couple of minutes.
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Two minutes is not a magic number.
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That s just what we happen to start with.
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And I think shorter might be even better.
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And I think that there s more evidence that longer is worse.
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It s not just diminishing returns.
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I think it actually becomes really awkward if you hold a pose like that too long.
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But the more recent research that I ve been looking at, you know, broadens this concept of expansiveness.
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It s not just about power poses.
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It s about sitting up straight.
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I mean, you know, we are hunched over our iPhones all the time.
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And that posture, which I call I posture is really bad for us.
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That s contracted, powerless posture.
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And we spend a lot of time sitting and standing like that.
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I mean, physiotherapists from all over the world contact me to tell me that they re seeing teenagers who have the kinds of
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spinal problems that only elderly women used to have.
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So, you know, they call them dowager s humps because they re sitting in that stooped posture so often, so much of their time.
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That is also, you know, affecting the way that we feel.
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If we re sitting in a powerless pose, that s affecting the way we feel.
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And, you know, the research is pretty clear that when we sit like that, we feel more depressed.
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That s the posture of a depressed person.
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Right, so we re being programmed by our iPad or our iPhone or our laptop to be depressed, literally.
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I think so and not just I mean the ways.
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people who talk about the sort of the negative effects of technology because I know I also by the way think there are lots of positive effects but not a punching over your phone but I think technology has a lot to offer as well just to be clear I m not an anti-technology person but when people think about the harms of technology they re focusing generally on
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how it takes us away from the present.
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We re interacting with people online as opposed to the person sitting at the desk next to us or the people at our table at dinner at nighttime, right?
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That s one way that it s hurting us.
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Physically, it s also obviously bad for us, but I m talking about really a third mechanism, which is that you are signaling to your brain when you re in that posture that you re powerless.
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That s a third mechanism.
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You write in the book that power posing can change the way we feel, even the way we walk influences our mood, the way we think about ourselves.
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Positive memories, positive physical postures tend to fit together.
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It helps us with abstract thinking.
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It bolsters leadership, decreases learned helplessness, which we ve covered on the show, increases persistence, makes us feel stronger, and even increases pain tolerance.
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So there s a lot of pluses that tend to go together with this body, the leadership of the body, with the power posing.
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What if we re disabled?
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I mean, just for those of us listening who are maybe seated right now in a wheelchair or something like that, can we still power pose?
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Does it still work?
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Yes.
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After my TED Talk, I heard from a lot of people with physical disabilities.
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And, you know, my first thought, by training a prejudice and stereotyping researcher.
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So I think that I have a built-in sensitivity to being inclusive and making sure that I m not leaving out people who lack power and status for social reasons.
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You know, when I started getting emails, I thought, gosh, I really left out this group of people.
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But to my surprise, the emails I was getting were not from people saying, hey, thanks a lot.
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You know, I can t power pose.
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What about me?
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They were from people with physical disabilities that do prevent them from adopting expensive postures, but who were saying, I just imagined myself doing it.
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And, you know, I was doing it long before I saw your talk, but I just thought I d let you know that that actually works for me.
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So people talking about how they imagine themselves in these really expansive postures and, you know, walking around the room and that it makes them feel more powerful and more confident.
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So we did a series of studies where we had people imagine themselves in powerful or powerless postures for a couple of minutes.
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The effects on the way people felt were just dramatic and enormous.
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So people who imagined themselves in the open, powerful postures felt safe and confident and energized and happy and
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focused.
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The people who were imagining themselves in these contractive postures felt threatened.
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They felt unsafe.
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They felt really bad about themselves.
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Some people said they felt that they were being tortured.
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They were feeling judged.
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We had them imagining that there were a few strangers in the room, and we honestly just did that to keep them occupied, to keep them engaged.
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But what we found was that the people in the power poses, the mental power poses, didn t really focus much on those other people.
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The people in the powerless poses
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were kind of obsessed with people that we hadn t even described.
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And they described them in detail and said that these people were judging them and wanted to hurt them.
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And it was just really kind of amazing.
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So I do think that that s just some evidence that we can imagine our movement.
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I mean, there s plenty of other evidence that came before this.
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You know, the work showing that, for example, when you put tennis players in a functional magnetic resonance imaging machine, you have them imagine themselves swinging their tennis racket.
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you see activity in the motor cortex as if they re actually swinging their tennis racket.
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So movement and imagined movement, or posture and imagined posture, I think are very closely linked in the brain.
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You d even measure the physiological changes like hormones and things like that that follow power posing.
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So this isn t just some sort of junk science, you know, jump up and down to feel good.
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You ve backed this up.
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I have to say, looking at mood as an outcome measure is not junk science.
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I think that some of the most subjective experience of reality is, I think, one of the most important outcome measures that we have as social scientists.
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Our perception of reality is our reality.
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So I think that mood, to me, is actually the ultimate outcome variable.
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That s really what you re looking at.
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So it s certainly not junk science.
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I think that the hormones are really interesting, and I ll talk about them in a minute, but I actually think that that part of the science
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in a way the newest and shakiest.
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I think that we re still figuring out how to properly not only measure hormones, but look at the interactions among different related hormones.
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But I ll tell you what we found and why we looked at this.
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In the animal kingdom, back to the primate world, what you see is
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that alphas have relatively high testosterone, which is the dominance hormone, and relatively low cortisol, which is the stress hormone.
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That s also true in the human world.
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So people who have a lot of formal power, social power, tend to have high testosterone and low cortisol.
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This is true for women and men.
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But you also see that that s not just a predictor of who acquires power.
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People s hormone levels change after they have acquired power.
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So it s both a cause and an outcome of having power.
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So when a new alpha takes over in a primate hierarchy, within a few days, you see an elevation in that individual s testosterone and a drop in his cortisol, and that s fairly stable.
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What that is telling us is that these hormones that are related to assertiveness and confidence and cortisol, which is related to stress, when you have high testosterone and low cortisol, you basically have a person who is confident and assertive
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but not threatened and stress reactive and fearful.
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So that s kind of the ideal hormone profile for a leader.
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What we decided to do is look at whether role changes can change these hormones.
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Could you also change these hormones by changing people s body language?
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So by sort of tricking the brain into believing that it actually is powerful.
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So we looked at changes in these hormones and what we found in a majority female sample was that two minutes of power posing versus two minutes of low power posing caused a significant increase in testosterone and a significant decrease in cortisol.
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Low power posing did exactly the opposite.
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That s pretty interesting physiological marker of power.
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And it really shows that this is something happening within the self as opposed to in response to some social cue.
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Because these people are in a room alone.
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It s not that they re standing in a powerful pose and people are treating them as if they re powerful and that s changing the hormones.
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This is happening when they are in a room alone, which is really interesting.
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That is interesting, and it flies in the face of what you see a lot of these college-age guys doing, just to pick on them for a second.
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A lot of them walk around with the muscly arms, or the sort of fake dominant walk, or they re taking up not just a lot of space, but too much space, kind of overcompensating for insecurity.
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That s different than what you re talking about, correct?
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Yeah, first of all, they re in social settings.
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And so they re getting feedback from people and a lot of people don t like that.
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I mean, you know, people respond well to confident body language, but not dominant alpha body language in life.
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We are generally not challenging people to a duel.
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You know, we re trying to connect with them.
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We want to convey confidence, but we also want to convey trustworthiness and openness and engagement and interest.
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So yeah, so I think that when you see, you know, I mean, I m sure that this is one of the few pieces of this that s actually quite gendered.
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When you see guys walking around that way, I m not sure that it s giving them the same benefits as, you know, standing alone in a room in a powerful posture.
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This sort of dovetails nicely into social power versus personal power.
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What s the difference between these two things?
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Social power is sort of what the kind of power that people think of when they think of the word power.
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So when I say the word power, a lot of people say and I do a word association and just say free associate.
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What s the next word you think of?
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People say corruption, which is pretty troubling, especially in a presidential election year.
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But it s social power is power over others.
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or power over others  access to necessary resources, or disproportionate control of resources.
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Personal power is power over the self.
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It s power over the resources that you possess within yourself, your knowledge, your talents, your skills, your values, your personality.
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That s what personal power is.
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It s not zero sum, it s infinite.
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Everyone can feel personally powerful without taking any power away from anyone else.
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Social power is zero-sum.
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It s fixed, right?
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If you re in a community, generally, the more power one person has, the less power some other people have.
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I think it s a much healthier kind of power and it s a kind of power that you don t need formal resources or status to have.
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So I ve met some really powerful people who don t
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have money and they don t have status and they don t have fancy jobs, but they have a lot of personal power.
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And I ve also met people who have a lot of social power and very little personal power.
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How do we build our personal power then?
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Or how do we work on that or demonstrate that in a healthy way?
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I think that we ve talked about posture and just carrying yourself with a sense of pride.
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You mentioned walking, so we ve talked about sitting and we ve talked about how you hold yourself, but even the way we move is feeding back information to us about how powerful we feel.
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And we find that people feel more powerful and appear more powerful when they take longer strides, when they swing their arms more, when they have more vertical bounce in their step.
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So when people feel powerful, not only are they expanding in a postural way,
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They re also moving in a more expansive way.
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So that s one little trick.
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But one of the things I really like, one of the exercises that I think is really promising and has been shown to be effective in literally hundreds of studies in different domains is the practice of real self-affirmation.
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And let me describe what that is because it s not what a lot of people think it is.
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I m good enough, I m smart enough, and doggone it, people like me.
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Not that kind of affirmation, okay.
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Stuart Smalley, yeah, I m good enough, I m smart enough, doggone it, people like me.
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That doesn t work.
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And it doesn t work because if you feel bad about yourself and you tell yourself, no, actually, I m great, now you re just lying to yourself and you know it.
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So you feel worse.
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It backfires.
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It makes the anxiety worse, which is what was funny about that skit because by the end he d be saying, I am in a shame spiral and I will die homeless and penniless and overweight.
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No one will ever love me and I m a fraud.
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You know, real self affirmation is not telling yourself you re good at things that you don t believe you re good at in that moment.
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Like you can t say,
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You know, I m going to be the best downhill skier in the world if you ve never skied.
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Like that s just stupid, right?
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That s a death wish.
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It doesn t work that way.
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Real self-affirmation involves identifying the things that make you who you are.
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So if, you know, somebody said, what makes you, you, you know, what are your core values?
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What are the things that you most care about?
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You list, you know, the top three or five of those things.
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Choose the first one or two and reflect on those.
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You can do it in writing, you can do it in a conversation with somebody, but reflect first on why it matters to you so much.
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So say, you know, you really value creativity and art.
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That s just a core value to you.
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And without that, you would just be a different person.
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Reflect first on why that matters to you.
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What is it that s so meaningful to you about those things?
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And then write about a time when you really were able to express that part of yourself and how that felt.
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That is self-affirmation.
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Self-affirmation theory was developed by Claude Steele, a professor at Stanford University, who is just world-renowned for many different programs of research.
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And he has shown consistently with his collaborators
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that when people do this simple task, it is as simple as I just explained.
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They are significantly less stressed in stressful situations, like say taking a math test or a midterm or final exam.
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They show lower stress physiologically in things like their cortisol levels, their epinephrine levels, their alpha amylase levels, all hormones related to stress, and they perform significantly better.
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Now, the funny thing about it
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is that the self-affirmation that they did had nothing to do with the stressful domain, right?
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So you say you just self-affirmed about your sort of love of art, and then you go in and take a math test, and you do better on the math test than if you hadn t done that.
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It doesn t matter that those things are unrelated, because the mechanism is that you have affirmed to yourself who you are, and that is solid.
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That s an anchor.
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You ve anchored yourself
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in your true identity.
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And you know that no matter what happens on that math exam or whatever it is, when you leave, you re still going to be that same person.
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You know, you still will love these things.
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And it s pretty wonderful.
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It s a really great way for people to start getting a sense of who they are.
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And when you know who you are, you know what are the resources that you possess that you want to be in touch with, right?
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So that is a step toward becoming more personally powerful.
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and the more you practice staying in touch with those things, and when it s appropriate, expressing those parts of yourself, the more personally powerful you feel on a day-to-day basis.
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You wrote that your boldest self emerges through the experience of having full access to your values, traits, and strengths, knowing that you can autonomously and sincerely express them through your actions and interactions.
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SPEAKER_00
In other words, sounds like authenticity, or the authentic self is an experience.
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It s a state, not a trait.
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Yes, the authentic self is definitely a state, not a trait.
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I mean, the authentic self, I mean, we are not our authentic selves all the time.
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If we were, we wouldn t be talking about this word.
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It wouldn t be, it wouldn t even be a thing.
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It s an experience that we have.
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And we know when we feel authentic, like we know it s satisfying.
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We feel seen.
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We connect with people.
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My husband is Australian and in Australia, they have this term DNM or deep and meaningful.
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And it s used to refer to like late night conversations that you have when you re an undergrad in college, where you bond with somebody that those are those authentic moments, you know, when you re really
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experiencing your authentic self and connecting with somebody else s authentic self, and you form such an incredible bond in those moments.
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It s kind of euphoric.
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It can be an aphrodisiac.
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It s very, very powerful at connecting us with ourselves and also connecting us with each other.
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Sure.
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When we teach rapport at Boot Camp, we talk a lot about how revealing ourselves allows other people to actually be vulnerable and show themselves, and it sounds like that s what you re referring to here.
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That s huge for me.
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It s not something that I was thinking about when I started writing this book, but it s something that I came to in the process of, you know, studying these constructs so that when people are being truly authentic and present, they liberate others to be authentic and present.
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I mean, one of the things I ve studied for years is
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the importance of expressing and building trust that people really need to put trust before confidence and strength.
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We judge each other very quickly on these two dimensions of trustworthiness and strength.
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But the thing is, we actually judge trust before strength because trust is telling us if this person has good intentions toward us, right?
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It s the first thing that we judge.
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It s evolutionarily adaptive.
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And so
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It s really important for us to bring other people out to help them to be open with us, right?
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Some people, when they think of leadership, have this misunderstanding that it s about being decisive and strong and authoritative.
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And I think that s absolutely wrong.
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I think that leadership is about being authentic, being honest.
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You still need to be strong, right?
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You need to be the one that can weather a storm and carry people through it.
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But when you do that, you are showing people that they are safe to show you who they are.
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So trust and authenticity liberate other people to be authentic and present.
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So we build trust through presence?
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Absolutely.
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I don t know how you can build trust
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without presence.
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I think it s impossible.
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People pick up on a lack of presence.
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They certainly notice when you re distracted.
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But even when you re sort of putting on a good show, you re not really hearing them and connecting with them and responding to them.
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You re responding to what you think they think, not what they actually think.
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You re not engaging at a deep level.
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In order to really make progress on, I think, often very difficult, seemingly intractable issues, we need to be present with people, even if they re people who we have real deep conflict with.
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The best way to resolve conflict is to be able to be there and be present and really show up and listen to what the other person is saying.
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I mean, the only way to resolve conflict is to understand each other, not to go in with these preconceptions about what they think, which are biased by emotion, but to actually go in and listen to what they think.
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And, you know, the only way to do that is to actually be present.
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Perfect.
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Thanks so much, Amy.
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Is there anything else that I haven t asked you that you want to make sure you deliver to the AOC fam?
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I want to remind people that the mind-body connection works in both directions.
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Your mind is not just telling your body what to do.
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Your body is conversing with your mind.
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It s telling your mind.
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you know, how to feel and what to think and how to see the world.
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So if you want to feel present and powerful and confident, carry yourself with power and confidence and presence and your mind will follow.
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One other thing I want to point out is that we do see big gender differences and how much men versus women expand.
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And we see that this is something girls learn
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and start to do around middle school.
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It s not something that they re doing when they re little.
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Boys and girls are equally throwing their arms up in the air and doing cartwheels until middle school.
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We need to teach our daughters to expand as much as we teach our sons to expand.
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Because if they start to roll up and contract and hide themselves as girls do when they hit middle school, you know, our daughters
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are gonna be feeling powerless.
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It is really undermining their ability to achieve what they want to achieve.
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Thank you so much, Amy.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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And I like this one because presence and authenticity, they can be very vague terms a lot of the times, but I do love the idea of relying on nonverbal communication to program our mind, making the distinction between social power and personal power, bringing out the best version of ourselves virtually on command, which is essentially right in line with what we do here at AOC.
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Special thanks to Amy Cuddy for this one, and if you enjoyed this, don t forget to thank Amy on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes, as well as my Twitter, which is at theartofcharm.
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We ll also link to her book and other resources on the show, and you can tap our album art in almost any mobile podcast player to see the cheat sheet for this episode, and we ll link to the show notes right on your phone.
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Also, check out the Social Capital Challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or in the USA only text charmed to 33444.
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That s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
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The challenge is all about improving your networking and connection skills and inspiring those around you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you.
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We ll also email you our fundamentals toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show.
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I m also doing regular videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward every week.
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It will make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker.
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That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed in the US to 33444.
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This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFilippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
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Show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead and tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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Now stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.