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I am so honored to be bringing this guest to you today, because I am such a big fan of everything that this man does.
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Okay, yeah, I have butterflies in my stomach.
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Don t make a big deal out of it.
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Okay, sure, maybe I have a little bit of butterflies.
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Sorry, this is a big deal for me.
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Today we have Rainn Wilson.
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I mean, I m just so excited.
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I am just so excited.
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You know who Rainn Wilson is, but just in case you don t, Rainn Wilson is an Emmy-nominated actor, producer, and writer, best known for his role as Dwight Schrute in the U.S.
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version of The Office.
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I, as we all are, am a huge fan of The Office.
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It s like everybody has their favorite comfy show, you know?
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And I would say for 90% of America, it s The Office.
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I m a part of that 90%.
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I remember watching it during class in high school, and I ve been watching it ever since.
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Rain does a lot.
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Rain is a busy guy, okay?
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He s co-founder of the media company SoulPancake, which specializes in the human experience and creating positive social change.
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He also is a podcaster.
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His podcast is called Metaphysical Milkshake.
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On the podcast, he sets out to answer life s biggest questions.
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But wait, there s more.
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Coming in April, he has another podcast coming out called Soul Boom.
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that s all about spirituality because Rain is a very spiritual guy.
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He hosts a TV series called The Geography of Bliss, where he explores the happiest communities in the world.
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I could list all of the incredible things that he does all day, but I ll finish it off with his book, Soul Boom, Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution.
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It s a book basically about how spirituality
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could help heal the world.
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That s also available as an audiobook on Spotify if you want to go listen.
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I feel like Rain and I have a lot in common on a personal level.
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I don t know him personally, though, so it s like, why am I saying that I think we have a lot in common?
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Well, I ve seen him talk a lot about
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anxiety, spirituality, two things that are very relevant in my personal life.
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I think they re relevant in a lot of our lives, but I m very anxious, and because of that, I ve become very spiritual to try to cope with it.
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So let s bring in Rainn Wilson, the iconic, the incredible, the genius Rainn Wilson.
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Here he is.
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We have to set the foundation here.
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Who were you as a child?
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Wow.
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What was your vibe as a child?
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That s funny, and usually I pay my therapist, you know, quite a lot, but we re jumping right in.
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I love it.
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Okay.
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I know, I know.
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Here we re going, going right to the childhood.
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So, how deep you wanna go?
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Do you wanna do like medium deep?
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No, I will go as deep as you wanna go.
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I can go the deepest, I can handle it.
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I can go deeper than you, that s what she said, and that s not what I m, that s not what we re talking about here.
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No, that s not today s topic.
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We wanna go, okay.
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But we can go real deep.
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So, as a child child, I m a year and a half, two years old, and my mom and my dad split up.
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My mom takes off and I go with my dad.
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So what does my dad do?
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He packed up me and moved to Nicaragua.
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Whoa.
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Whoa.
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Yeah.
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Whoa.
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Drink that in America.
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Whoa.
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Emma Chamberlain, is that your name?
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That s your name, right?
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Fan base.
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Yes.
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Eat that up.
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Eat it up.
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Digest that.
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Yes.
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So here I am, I m like a big, ungainly toddler with a giant head and a pasty torso, tottering around literally the jungles of Nicaragua, where I spoke, as a child, I spoke fluent Spanish,
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and I was running around on the muddy, jungly, monkey-strewn streets of Bluefields, Nicaragua.
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Wow.
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For reals.
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For reals?
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Yeah.
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For how long were you there?
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About two year, two and a half years or so.
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Okay.
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And when I was five, five and a half, we moved back to the Pacific Northwest and I started kindergarten in Olympia, Washington.
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Okay, interesting.
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And my dad had gotten remarried when we were down in Nicaragua to my stepmom,
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And so it was a weird, it was already a weird childhood.
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Unsettling because you don t, you got ripped out of what you were comfortable with, got taken to a completely new environment.
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Now you re back in the old environment.
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Like it s a lot for the nervous system, I can imagine.
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And the mom leaves and then there s a new mom.
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And you re also in a jungle, by the way.
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You re also like preternaturally nerdy.
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And so then I m back in Olympia, Washington as this,
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nerdy kid who doesn t even know, like, I didn t, I wasn t very well socialized.
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It was like I was raised by, like, capuchin white-faced monkeys.
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And so I didn t know, like, the social rules of being a human being in suburbia.
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Then we were also very poor.
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Now, when you say poor, there s a spectrum, right?
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I had meals.
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We had a car.
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It was a used Edsel, which is like this weird car.
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I got my clothes at Salvation Army.
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I mean, we were in like a 900 square foot house in Olympia.
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And I think my dad was making like, I m not kidding you, I think he was making like $9,000 a year or something like that.
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So that s a little backdrop.
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And then we get into the super nerd stuff come like junior high, high school.
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Okay, so you consider yourself a nerd.
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You were a nerd.
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Bro.
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Bro.
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Let s get real about this.
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Get real about the nerd.
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I always read these articles and you re like, Charlize Theron was like, I was so nerdy in high school.
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It s like, fuck you.
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You, come on, give me a break.
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Did you play D&D every weekend?
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Were you on the chess team?
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Were you on the chess team, Charlize?
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Were you on Model United Nations?
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Did you play the bassoon?
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Like, no, no, and no.
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People are calling themselves nerds because they wore glasses.
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And they actually didn t even need them.
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Or they read Harry Potter books.
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Once.
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Once.
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Actually, no, watched a movie.
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Let s be honest, watched the movie.
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Read half the book and then watched the movie when it came out.
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So you were like full nerd.
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Full on.
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Do you feel like... Pimples.
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Oh, that too.
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I had that too.
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I wasn t a full nerd.
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I had bacne.
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Me too.
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SPEAKER_00
You had bacne?
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SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah.
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I didn t know women could get bacne.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, can they?
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Full bacne.
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I used to pop it in class and reach back and pop it.
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Just like into my shirt.
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It was disgusting, which would only make it worse, of course, because now pimple juice is rubbing over all the pores.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, it s terrible.
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Making more pimples.
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It s horrible.
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Okay.
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So were you like, were you happy kid?
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Here s the deal.
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I was, um, I did my best.
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Yep.
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I wasn t suicidal and, uh, depressed every day was an adventure and you know, but, but, but on top of this and you know, it s important to note too, like when my dad and step mom got married down in Nicaragua,
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When I was writing, I wrote a book about my life called The Bassoon King, that s a comedic memoir.
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And I asked them, I was like, when did you, because they got a divorce the second I went away to college.
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Like literally went to college in September, in October they told me they were getting a divorce.
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And I said, when did you know that marrying the other was a mistake?
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And both of them said within six months.
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So I m three, three and a half, they get married, they knew, and then they stayed together till I was 18, 18 and a half.
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So 15 years of a really unhappy marriage, but they, I don t know, they stayed together for religious reasons or to raise me thinking that it would help me.
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I remember being a kid, being 11, 12 years old, kind of in my head going, God, I wish they d get a divorce.
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totally because they would have been I m really not a fan of divorce who is but at the same time like don t do it for the kids because because you pick up on this the energy lovelessness vibe that s going around in the household and it it was this colossal mind fuck because I on a number of different levels like because we seem to be
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a quirky, albeit quirky family, but kind of a normal family.
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Like we would sit and we would watch MASH on TV and we would have meatloaf, you know,
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for dinner, and we would walk the dog, and we had a little garden in the backyard, so it seemed kind of normal-ish, but there was just this disconnection, like they never hugged, or they didn t laugh together, and loved together, and so there s this like, then it makes me feel even more like an alien.
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Absolutely.
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Do you feel like it impacted your
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beliefs on love as a young adult, like when you started, let s say, dating for the first time, because my parents are divorced and they have actually a great friendship, which is amazing.
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Oh, that s great.
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So I m very fortunate in that way.
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And I constantly am checking in on myself, like, how did that impact
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you know, the way that I romantically love.
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Like, you know, and it s, I don t quite know.
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Like, I have my hypotheses, but I m not certain.
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Are you certain on how it impacted you, or are you kind of unsure?
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Or maybe it didn t impact you at all.
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No, there was definitely an impact there.
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I mean, I will say this.
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So my dad, before he passed away, was on his fourth wife.
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My mom, my natural mom is, I think it s husband five.
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And then my stepmom also got remarried.
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So there was just a lot of like, psh, psh, psh, you know.
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When my father died, I had three moms.
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I had my birth mother, my stepmom who raised me, and then my dad s widow, who I m also very close to.
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And I m close to all of them.
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But Rain had three mommies is kind of the motto.
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So my wife and I have been together for 32 years.
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And we ve had some struggles.
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We ve had a lot of ups and downs.
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I don t want to paint any kind of picture like it s, oh, it s just been this super rosy thing.
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But I do think there was a response to all of that chaos in the home to try my best, fitfully and not with great success, to have a solid relationship to build on and a family.
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But in that sense, I m grateful for that because we have a great marriage.
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and I m really happy to be with her.
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Tomorrow s her birthday.
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SPEAKER_01
Happy birthday, wifey!
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SPEAKER_01
That s amazing.
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SPEAKER_00
Is there some swag I can give her here?
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SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, we ll give you so much.
1
SPEAKER_01
Can I have this lamp?
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SPEAKER_01
Have the lamp.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay.
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SPEAKER_01
That s easy.
1
SPEAKER_01
But at least put my name on the tag when you give it to her.
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SPEAKER_01
Sorry.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, yeah, it s fine.
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SPEAKER_01
No, it s totally cool.
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SPEAKER_01
I ll send her something myself.
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But yeah, so, yeah, I made lots of mistakes dating and whatnot, but I guess
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maybe just really wanting some kind of like long-term commitment, like have a long-term relationship and you know.
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Well, it could go one of two ways, right?
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I feel like some people probably, you know, maybe have a turbulent love that they re watching as they re like... If you become accustomed to anxiety and chaos as a child, then you d seek out anxiety and chaos in your relationships as an adult, because that feels normal.
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Absolutely.
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You know, and I know lots of people that had chaos and anxiety, even depression.
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as a kid in their home life, and then when a stable, calm, peaceful, and meaningful relationship is presented to them, they re like, eh, not feeling it.
1
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And then they date the person that s gonna give them all of that fireworks that they were used to.
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it is kind of a blessing to crave the stable option as a response to the experience.
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So let s go back to you in high school.
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What were you interested in?
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What were your hobbies?
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What were your favorite subjects in school?
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What did you love?
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Well, I had two phases to my high school life.
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So I will say that junior year and the first two years of high school, I was in suburban Seattle, and that s when I was in super nerd mode.
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Super nerd mode.
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SPEAKER_00
You know, played the bassoon in orchestra.
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SPEAKER_00
I played the xylophone in marching band.
1
SPEAKER_01
Niche instruments only for you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Only niche instruments, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
None of that saxophone crap.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, ew, cringe.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then we had a marching band.
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We were the Highlanders, so we wore Scottish kilts.
1
SPEAKER_01
Whoa.
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So I was in a xylophone in a kilt walking down the street.
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SPEAKER_00
There s something very Seattle about that.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it is very Seattle.
1
SPEAKER_00
Did you ever see that show Freaks and Geeks?
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SPEAKER_00
Classic show from the early 2000s?
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SPEAKER_01
Somebody showed me one episode of it and I never saw it anymore.
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SPEAKER_00
That was so my life and I love that show.
1
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Yeah, Model United Nations, chess team, computer club, debate club.
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Just, I love the nerdy pursuits.
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I frantically read science fiction novels, and I ve kept most of them.
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They were stored in my parents  basement in boxes, so I have them.
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In my house, I have hundreds of 1970s, like, crazy with, like, space girls with laser guns and big boobs on the cover and, you know, people fighting saber-toothed tigers.
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And my dad wrote science fiction books on the side of whatever else he was doing.
1
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So all through my childhood, he was, like, feverishly writing science fiction books.
1
SPEAKER_01
He s an artist, it sounds like, an artist.
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SPEAKER_01
He can t avoid it.
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SPEAKER_00
He was a painter and a science fiction book writer, but he had to provide for the family.
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So he worked at a sewer construction company.
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So it was this weird combination of like super blue collar.
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And I lived in a blue collar neighborhood and my friend s dads were.
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insurance salesmen and fishermen and loggers and plumbers, but then they had this weird artsy thing.
1
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And then to top it all off, my parents, I grew up a member of the Baha i faith, so that was a weird thing too.
1
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Then your religion doesn t even match what everyone else is.
1
SPEAKER_00
Everyone else is Protestants, and so we were Baha is.
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So I felt very alienated on a number of different levels.
1
SPEAKER_01
You know, like some kids grow up around a religion, right?
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And it isn t really theirs, if that makes sense.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like they don t really adopt it.
1
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t become a part of their personal life.
1
SPEAKER_01
Maybe it is a part of their family life, but it s not a part of their personal life.
1
SPEAKER_01
Were you religious?
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SPEAKER_00
I went all in.
1
SPEAKER_01
You were all in?
1
SPEAKER_00
I was all in.
1
SPEAKER_01
Tell me a little bit about that.
1
SPEAKER_01
Also, I m not familiar with the Baha i faith.
1
SPEAKER_00
No.
1
SPEAKER_01
So please enlighten me.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so super nutshell version, Baha is believe that there s only one God and that all the religions of the world are essentially one religion, because they re all different chapters in a book, but they re all coming from the same source, which is God.
1
SPEAKER_00
So Buddhism and the Buddha are divine, Christianity
1
SPEAKER_00
Jesus are divine.
1
SPEAKER_01
It sounds incredibly inclusive and positive.
1
SPEAKER_00
Very inclusive, positive.
1
SPEAKER_00
Muhammad and the Koran are divine.
1
SPEAKER_00
So we, as a Baha i, we grew up reading all these different holy books and Baha is want
1
SPEAKER_00
love and unity and harmony and all of that stuff.
1
SPEAKER_00
So there s, you know, a lot of that kind of work.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it was great growing up in the seventies as a Baha i because it was also, you know, it was very diverse.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like it wasn t, Baha is are very much about elimination of racial prejudice and racial differences.
1
SPEAKER_00
So,
1
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I went to Baha i gatherings, it was black Baha is, white Baha is, Hispanic Baha is, indigenous Baha is, all singing and kumbaya.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was like- That s amazing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it was very kumbaya.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I went all in on that and it brought me a lot, actually.
1
SPEAKER_00
We would go to these retreats, like summer school, winter school, and I d see other nerdy Baha i kids and we d be like, yay, we re Baha is.
1
SPEAKER_00
would always be the only Baha i at our school and be able to bond about that and stuff like that.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I left the Baha i faith and all religion hardcore for at least 13, 14 years as an adult.
1
SPEAKER_00
So that s a whole other chapter, but that was my nerd chapter.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so you were, I mean, but it sounds like, did you have friends?
1
SPEAKER_01
You had like- I had some friends.
1
SPEAKER_01
I had a little posse.
1
SPEAKER_01
Were you like, I have a big group, or were you like, I have one best friend?
1
SPEAKER_01
Like my vibe was always one best friend at a time.
1
SPEAKER_01
I would like pop around in a group, but I would always have one- Who was your best friend?
1
SPEAKER_01
I ve had many.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so it was like a revolving door of best friends?
1
SPEAKER_01
Kind of, which sounds toxic, and it probably is.
1
SPEAKER_00
Do a lot of them, now that you re like,
1
SPEAKER_00
big cheese and whatever it is that you do.
1
SPEAKER_01
They probably think it s so bizarre.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think for like the Seattle contingent, I think they re like, what the, that guy?
1
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
1
SPEAKER_00
The bassoon playing guy?
1
SPEAKER_00
No, they think that about me too.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s the celebrity?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like that weird guy?
1
SPEAKER_00
What the hell is going on?
1
SPEAKER_01
You have another huge fan and they don t know what to do.
1
SPEAKER_01
So, but you were like, were you outgoing?
1
SPEAKER_00
No, no, I was very shy and self-conscious and very low self-esteem.
1
SPEAKER_01
Were you funny?
1
SPEAKER_00
I was funny.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
There you go.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I had the funny would come out.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I learned rapidly like, you know, like even bullies would be like, kind of like, hey, rain, rain, go away.
1
SPEAKER_00
Hey asshole.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they re like ready to like, like kind of mix it up or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like rain, rain, go away is not nearly mean enough for a bully.
1
SPEAKER_01
They need that.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s level one.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re like, Emma, stop.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re taking away from my,
2
SPEAKER_01
But that s like, that s, hey.
2
SPEAKER_00
I got it almost every day.
2
SPEAKER_01
They were a little scared of you, I think, that they weren t going that hard because they were like, we re a little scared of him.
2
SPEAKER_00
It got a little harder here and there, but you re right.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was, but it was a gentler time.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, it was the 70s.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was going to say, like, I think it, I think it was.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, do you think it was?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes and no.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I think that the bullying wasn t as toxic, but it was more pervasive.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
2
SPEAKER_00
You just, it just happened.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everyone got teased.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everyone got bullied.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everyone got pushed around.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everyone scrapped.
2
SPEAKER_00
You were supposed to just tolerate bullying.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it was just like, you know, I would complain like they re picking on me and my parents would be like, and teachers would be like,
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s how the world is, so get used to it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Learn how to survive with that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Really?
2
SPEAKER_00
But there wasn t any parent-teacher conferences of like, so, Ricky, you ve been bullying Rain.
2
SPEAKER_00
How do we work this out?
2
SPEAKER_01
That s crazy.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s the teachers going, okay, you two.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then they re like, pulling him apart and like, get back to class.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, everybody, nothing to see here.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Get going.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you feel like being bullied
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you feel like it helped you develop your humor?
2
SPEAKER_00
I think a lot of comedy comes out of pain and a lot of comedy comes out of as a kind of a coping mechanism.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Arthur Brooks actually talks about that in his book.
2
SPEAKER_00
You should get him on on the show.
2
SPEAKER_00
He just wrote this book with Oprah about
2
SPEAKER_00
I forget what it s called, how to be happy or something like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And he talked about emotional caffeine.
2
SPEAKER_00
So his concept, I m taking no credit for this, is that caffeine isn t actually a stimulant.
2
SPEAKER_00
It actually blocks the kind of the... The sleepy... The endorphin and sleepy endorphins that are in your brain.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yep.
2
SPEAKER_00
So what do we do to block that in other ways?
2
SPEAKER_00
So sadness can be blocked with humor.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like if you are telling a joke or goofing off or making someone laugh or laughing yourself, it is literally impossible to be sad at the same time.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can stop and then be sad, but while you re doing it,
2
SPEAKER_00
You can t be sad.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so I think that was a big survival mechanism for me and my friends.
2
SPEAKER_00
We would watch early, early Saturday Night Live in the late 70s, early 80s.
2
SPEAKER_00
We would do those sketches.
2
SPEAKER_00
We would watch Monty Python and do those sketches and just make each other laugh.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it was a way to get by.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was subversive.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, like the nerds were funny.
2
SPEAKER_00
The popular kids weren t funny because they didn t need to be.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because they were just getting all this love and attention, so why would they be funny?
2
SPEAKER_00
So it s the kids in the cracks that end up being funny.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s so true.
2
SPEAKER_01
When did you start thinking, I could use my humor for my job?
2
SPEAKER_00
I m going to go to junior year.
2
SPEAKER_00
We move to a high school outside of Chicago that has an incredible theater program.
2
SPEAKER_00
Here we go.
2
SPEAKER_00
I sign up for my very first acting class.
2
SPEAKER_00
and it s not true, I took one in Seattle but it was terrible and we just made puppets.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I sign up for this acting class, the first exercise, I m this new kid at school, the first exercise is called Private and Public.
2
SPEAKER_00
So how do you act normally in your room and allow people to just see and to just witness your private life?
2
SPEAKER_00
So I was really into music, I loved like crazy, I liked punk and new wave and alternative type of music.
2
SPEAKER_00
I brought in my record player and this Elvis Costello album, and I was just in my room, and then I put on this song called Mystery Dance by Elvis Costello that s this rock, and then I just started dancing just like crazy, like, you know, like I would in my room.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the crowd went crazy.
2
SPEAKER_00
They went wild in the acting class.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was in this new school.
2
SPEAKER_00
There were all these very cute girls that all of a sudden came up and were like,
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh, you re so funny.
2
SPEAKER_00
Hey, what s your name?
2
SPEAKER_00
Welcome to our school.
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you want to sit with us at our lunch table?
2
SPEAKER_00
And I was just like, like the angels sang.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I was like,
2
SPEAKER_00
no more chess team, no more bassoon, no more model United Nations, I m going in.
2
SPEAKER_00
I went all in on the drama nerd at that point.
2
SPEAKER_01
Whoa, okay, love it.
2
SPEAKER_00
So that was the beginning, and there s a lot more to the story, but then did drama in high school, went to one college, did a bunch of plays, went to another college, did a bunch of plays.
2
SPEAKER_00
Realized that I kinda needed training as an actor, so I auditioned for and got into NYU, moved to NYU, and went to acting school.
2
SPEAKER_00
and went all in on that in my early 20s.
2
SPEAKER_01
Let s get into acting.
2
SPEAKER_01
When did acting become your job?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s all I wanted.
2
SPEAKER_00
So my dad, like I said, he wrote these science fiction novels.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s published one of them and he painted paintings.
2
SPEAKER_00
He never
2
SPEAKER_00
sold any of them.
2
SPEAKER_00
So other than the one published science fiction book, I had never met a single person that got paid to be an artist in my whole life.
2
SPEAKER_00
I never met someone who got money to write a poem or do a dance or, you know, be an actor or sing a song or anything like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
So that was not in my worldview, mostly in suburban Seattle.
2
SPEAKER_00
So when I decided and I went all in on trying to be an actor,
2
SPEAKER_00
I was like, I wanna get paid for this.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that was my whole drive.
2
SPEAKER_00
I didn t have a trust fund.
2
SPEAKER_00
I had to make my own rent.
2
SPEAKER_00
I had to make my own way.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I went to this really good acting training program.
2
SPEAKER_00
That had its ups and downs.
2
SPEAKER_00
Got out and then I started doing little theater things.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was mostly training for the theater and thinking I was gonna work in the theater in New York.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I had a ton of shitty jobs.
2
SPEAKER_00
driving a moving van.
2
SPEAKER_00
My wife and I had a dog walking service.
2
SPEAKER_00
Cute.
2
SPEAKER_00
It didn t last long.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s hard work.
2
SPEAKER_01
You lost a dog, didn t you?
2
SPEAKER_00
I lost a dog in Central Park, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Gone.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re still looking for it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was called Tales of New York.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s cute, though.
2
SPEAKER_00
T-A-I-L-S, get it?
2
SPEAKER_01
I love that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
We had a great poster.
2
SPEAKER_01
Bring it back.
2
SPEAKER_00
Bring it back.
2
SPEAKER_01
Family biz, family business.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so I went all in, and then it was, I wanted it to be my job, but I really wanted to, I thought I was gonna be in the theater, and then I did this tour.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know the actor Jeffrey Wright?
2
SPEAKER_00
He was on this tour with me.
2
SPEAKER_00
We were friends back in the day, worked together back in the day.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I finished this whole tour,
2
SPEAKER_00
And at the end of it, we were getting our mail, and I got my bank statement, and I had $1,200 in the bank.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I had worked for nine months, and I was like, oh, fuck.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then Jeffrey was there, and Jeffrey was opening his mail, and then I ll never forget it.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s like, yeah, oh my god, woo, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
he d gotten a residual check, because he had done three days on a Harrison Ford movie, and he had a check for $3,500.
2
SPEAKER_00
He was like, wow, this is awesome.
2
SPEAKER_00
And in my head, right then and there, I was like,
2
SPEAKER_00
okay, I m in the wrong business.
2
SPEAKER_00
If I m ever gonna buy a house, if I m ever gonna pay off my student loans, I gotta get into film and TV.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it was a long road, dude.
2
SPEAKER_00
I did nothing but theater for nine or 10 years in New York before I did any TV or film.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I really, a few years in, just kind of focused on like, I need to try and get some film and TV work.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you prefer
2
SPEAKER_01
theater or film and TV?
2
SPEAKER_01
What do you think is more fulfilling?
2
SPEAKER_00
So I really, and this sounds like a cop-out, but I really like all of it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I ll tell you why.
2
SPEAKER_00
They all have very different demands.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of like saying to a musician, like, do you like playing on an album?
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you like playing live?
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or do you like writing songs with songwriters, you know, around a campfire?
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like,
2
SPEAKER_00
They re all different expressions of music, and a good musician is gonna love all of that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, theater, you know, you re up in front of an audience.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s 90 minutes to two hours.
2
SPEAKER_00
You are telling the story.
2
SPEAKER_00
You are driving the story just with your acting chops.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s no cuts, there s no music, there s no visual effects.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s just you and an audience, and the actor is king in that sense.
2
SPEAKER_00
A film is really intense and really short.
2
SPEAKER_00
You go on a film, you re gonna be on it from two weeks to six months, and it s a really compact time of your life, and you re figuring out the arc of the character, and you shoot it maybe crazy out of order.
2
SPEAKER_00
So many times I ve done a movie, and you re shooting the last scene on the first day.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you ve gotta really track, so it s about that intensity, and it s really in the director s hands.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then on a TV show,
2
SPEAKER_00
know, like the office, like other ones that I ve done, like that the TV show is the domain of the writer.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they re the ones building the one year arc, the five year arc, the nine year arc of the show, season to season, the arc where the characters are going to go.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, it s a
3
SPEAKER_01
great, steady job and amazing paycheck.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s comforting to go in and get to play Dwight for 12 hours a day for nine years.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s another family and that s a whole different experience.
3
SPEAKER_00
It sounds like you love the art of acting.
3
SPEAKER_01
I do.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because I don t think
3
SPEAKER_01
I did not go into it for fame or money.
3
SPEAKER_01
I really didn t.
3
SPEAKER_01
In fact, I was on Bill Maher s podcast tonight.
3
SPEAKER_01
He was like, well, you got into it for the fame.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was like, no, I didn t.
3
SPEAKER_01
He s like, come on.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, no, I love the craft of acting.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love the craft of storytelling.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love to transform into characters that are different than myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I ve always just loved that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Did I want to pay the bills?
3
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
3
SPEAKER_01
Did I want to ultimately buy a house?
3
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I didn t go into it to become the wildly successful
3
SPEAKER_01
talent that you see before you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Do you like being famous?
3
SPEAKER_01
I ll be really honest with you, please.
3
SPEAKER_01
Mostly yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, because of the doors that it opens.
3
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I went into this incredible restaurant with my managers.
3
SPEAKER_01
We had a dinner and then, um,
3
SPEAKER_01
Then they recognize me and they re like, blah, blah, blah, here s our number and you can come in anytime.
3
SPEAKER_01
So then my wife s birthday, in fact, last night, we went and I got to use that and get a nice table and they gave us some free scallops and I was like, this is awesome, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
And I ve gotten invited to tennis tournaments and trips to places and you get a lot of perks from it that for a nerdy kid from Seattle, I m like, I ll take it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m super grateful for Dwight
3
SPEAKER_01
But it can be tough to just be known mostly for one character.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve played dozens and dozens of characters in my career.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I m mostly known for one.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that can be tough.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it can be tough socially in a lot of ways, like just how you re treated and let s get, you wanna get deep?
3
SPEAKER_01
Here we go.
3
SPEAKER_00
I love getting deep.
3
SPEAKER_01
When they asked young people, not long ago, what was their number one goal?
3
SPEAKER_01
Did they want money?
3
SPEAKER_01
Did they want sex?
3
SPEAKER_01
did they want, happiness did they want, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
3
SPEAKER_01
By far and away, the thing they wanted the most was fame, because fame gives you all that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Theoretically, fame gives you money, it gives you sex, it gives you status, it gives you supposedly happiness.
3
SPEAKER_01
doesn t give you happiness.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you have a hole in you, fame is not gonna fill that hole.
3
SPEAKER_01
In fact, it s gonna take you away from your happiness because then you have not done the work to build up your internal sense of self where it s like, I love myself, I wanna be with myself, I have a vision of what my life is and I m content in that and I have
3
SPEAKER_01
mission and purpose and vibrancy and then fame just
3
SPEAKER_01
it just breeds more fame, it s like a drug.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re chasing it ever more, and you want more likes, and more followers, and more jobs, and more money, and more status, and more esteem, and you re searching outside of yourself, and it s a crazy thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
Get this, and maybe you ve had, I wanna hear your experience.
3
SPEAKER_01
When I started to get famous, which was later for me, late 30s, early 40s, from the office, and I did a couple of shows before that, Six Feet Under, and some other things, and I started to get recognized.
3
SPEAKER_01
it was the weirdest thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
Picture that nerdy kid that I was talking about, whose mom took off, whose parents were in a loveless, fractured marriage, with a lot of just alienation all around me.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then picture that guy, that same guy at 38, 39, walking down the streets and people going, hey, I love you!
3
SPEAKER_01
Which is a weird thing to say.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love you, and they d turn, like, I love you, I love you.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m being loved, finally, I m loved, oh my gosh, I m loved.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s like, is that love?
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve laughed at you and I appreciate your work, is what they should be saying.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I enjoy what you do.
3
SPEAKER_01
But they don t love me.
3
SPEAKER_01
They don t love- They don t even know you.
3
SPEAKER_01
They don t know me and they don t love the kind of essentially unlovable Rainn Wilson.
3
SPEAKER_00
So- I doubt that, you re very lovable.
3
SPEAKER_00
But it s, no, but I understand that because, I mean, I think it s interesting because for me, you know, my,
3
SPEAKER_00
career has been
3
SPEAKER_00
They only know me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ve never been a character.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s so unusual, because when they say, like, oh, I love you, it s like, this is weird, because you actually do kind of know me.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I am, there is always going to be parts, there are parts of me that are not seen.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s impossible.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re not going to share all of you.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can t share everything.
3
SPEAKER_00
They don t see my mental breakdown.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, I don t know, they don t see me on a grumpy day.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is weird, because you almost feel
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe, is it imposter syndrome in a way?
3
SPEAKER_00
You re receiving all this love and affection and you re like, but I don t feel like it s deserved.
3
SPEAKER_00
Was that sort of your experience?
3
SPEAKER_00
Or was it more like, they don t know me and they think that they do, so this is kind of bizarre and hard to digest?
3
SPEAKER_00
What was your reaction to suddenly having all these people
3
SPEAKER_00
fawn after you and love you.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just a colossal mindfuck, because who doesn t love people coming up and saying, hey, I love you?
3
SPEAKER_01
Of course.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or I love your work, or I love what you do, or you re great.
3
SPEAKER_01
Everyone loves that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Celebrities are lying if they say, oh, I don t like fame, or I don t like that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Of course.
3
SPEAKER_01
Everyone likes that.
3
SPEAKER_01
That is a very human thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
But at the same time, in the first few years that I was famous, it kind of went to my head in some not healthy ways.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m not saying I went on like,
3
SPEAKER_01
cocaine-fueled binges, but it did mess with my head and messed with my ego.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m also not saying I became this arrogant narcissist, but I could be a dick sometimes, and it was really hard for my wife to put up with me during
3
SPEAKER_01
a lot of those years, and I wanted more, and I was, you know, I ve talked about this on some other- Oh, so it was the opposite of imposter syndrome.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was like, I got this, I m gonna soak it up.
3
SPEAKER_01
I wanna soak it up, and I want more of it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I want more, I see.
3
SPEAKER_01
How come I m not getting even more that chase?
3
SPEAKER_01
It s like, oh, this feels good, then I want more.
3
SPEAKER_01
I want more.
3
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now, a lot of people, I imagine people are watching and going, boo, hoo, hoo, cry me a river, you celebrities.
3
SPEAKER_01
You make money, you get endorsements.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, it s so hard.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a lot harder to be a plumber and to pay your bills, but
3
SPEAKER_01
Still, people view it as like, oh, once you get a certain level of fame, then you are arrived and you are going to have it all and you won t have any worries.
3
SPEAKER_01
We talked about anxiety a little bit and I was a very anxious child and turned into an anxious adult.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve been treated for anxiety.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have an anxiety disorder.
3
SPEAKER_01
Anxiety makes me do a lot of things I don t want to do.
3
SPEAKER_01
Fame, it s like pot.
3
SPEAKER_01
Pot makes you think that you re calming your anxiety.
3
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t really calm your anxiety.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just putting a blanket over it temporarily until you come kicking and thrashing out of the blanket.
3
SPEAKER_01
So fame is the same thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s seemingly soothing your anxiety.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, they like me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I m popular.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I ve got a new job.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s soothing.
3
SPEAKER_01
But it s not addressing that essential wound.
3
SPEAKER_00
My anxiety response to fame is so the opposite.
3
SPEAKER_00
Me being in the public eye gives me so, so much anxiety.
3
SPEAKER_00
More anxiety, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes, it is a trigger for me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think it s also the internet age.
3
SPEAKER_01
But you chose to be in the public eye?
3
SPEAKER_01
You chose to be in the public eye, and you could not do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I could totally not do it, but I have to weigh the pros and cons, because I love,
3
SPEAKER_00
There are so many things about it that I love, so it s so worth it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s more like managing that relationship.
3
SPEAKER_00
What is I think so frightening is sort of the town square, like,
3
SPEAKER_00
you feel like you re always in the middle of the town square in a way, even though no one really cares and it s not really that deep, but you feel like every move you make maybe, you re being scrutinized, which you are in a way.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that I think is what causes me a lot of anxiety.
3
SPEAKER_01
There is a difference between being an actor, now people know me from Instagram and social media or whatever, there s a certain
3
SPEAKER_01
level of play there and being on podcasts like this where I m talking as myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
But mostly people know me as a character.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that is a little separation, but you re right.
3
SPEAKER_01
You come up in this lens and it s like, people are following your every move, what you re wearing, what you re saying.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so your every action
4
SPEAKER_00
is scrutinized in a way where it s kind of like, God, can I just go get a smoothie and not take a shower and not have someone try and sneak a picture on their phone and post it or something like that?
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think the age of social media has impacted what being a celebrity is, you know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
Or being famous is.
4
SPEAKER_01
Because anything can be posted at any time of you.
4
SPEAKER_01
There is a lot of Dwight on TikTok.
4
SPEAKER_00
Is there?
4
SPEAKER_00
Of course.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, what is your relationship to that character?
4
SPEAKER_01
Are you just so sick of talking about it?
4
SPEAKER_01
Or will it never get old?
4
SPEAKER_01
Because it was such a huge part of your life and it is, I imagine, such a special character to you.
4
SPEAKER_01
What is your relationship to Dwight?
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, am I, yes and no, am I sick of talking about it?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, I ve talked about it a ton, because not just over the last 10 years since the show ended, but during the nine years of doing the show.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it s been almost 20 years of talking about Dwight.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
So part of it is like, who likes to talk about anything for 20 years?
4
SPEAKER_01
No, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
But that, at the same time, I understand the lasting legacy of that show and how important it is to people, how important it is to their mental health and how much it has helped calm and qualm people s anxiety.
4
SPEAKER_00
And people are so obsessed with the show.
4
SPEAKER_00
They love it so much.
4
SPEAKER_00
I go to sometimes, I ll go to a fan conference and do some signings or run into people or whatever.
4
SPEAKER_00
People are crazy.
4
SPEAKER_00
crying, they re sobbing because that show just meant so much to them.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I want to honor that, you know, and you know, like I said, I played dozens of characters before Dwight.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ve played a couple dozen characters since I played Dwight.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s just one of the characters that it happened to be the one that was on a home run show that lasted.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I have a great relationship with Dwight and a great testament is that people can t believe how different I am than Dwight and they
4
SPEAKER_00
But they see some similarities and, oh, some similarities.
4
SPEAKER_00
Dwight opened so many doors for me.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I ve had so many incredible opportunities to do movies and to meet incredible folk and to travel and obviously to buy a house and a great paycheck and an amazing office family.
4
SPEAKER_00
So super, super grateful.
4
SPEAKER_00
How could I not be?
4
SPEAKER_00
But I do, I hope at the end of the day that people understand like, oh, he was an actor and he was a good actor and he was good in a lot of different roles.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, that s what I was gonna say.
4
SPEAKER_01
What do you feel like is a role that you did that you wanna talk about more?
4
SPEAKER_00
Because it was so... Well, I haven t done any for nine years, so I didn t do 200 episodes of any other role.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right, of course.
4
SPEAKER_01
But even something that was like, even if it was a tiny indie film that no one ever saw, like whatever, what is that character for you?
4
SPEAKER_01
What is that role for you?
4
SPEAKER_00
All right, I did, the first thing that popped in my head is I did this indie film 10 years ago called Hesher.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it was with Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Natalie Portman.
4
SPEAKER_00
And no one saw it for some reason.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a really good movie.
4
SPEAKER_00
The score is by Metallica.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s a really fucked up and funny drama.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I played this kind of
4
SPEAKER_00
really sad dad.
4
SPEAKER_00
His wife has died.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a dramatic role.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m pill popping.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s a role I loved playing.
4
SPEAKER_00
And a lot of people saw the film and had no idea it was the guy who played Dwight.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it was kind of like, for them, it was like jaw dropping because I just, I looked so different and acted so different.
4
SPEAKER_00
And they,
4
SPEAKER_00
they couldn t even put it together.
4
SPEAKER_01
Wait, I need to watch this?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, it s a really good film.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, what is your favorite type of, or like, what was sort of your favorite type of character to play?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, was there something that you were drawn to?
4
SPEAKER_01
Is it something that s similar to you or something that s maybe as far away from you as possible?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, what was the most exciting to you?
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, I think from the background that we talked about, like, I love to play misfits.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I love to play people that don t fit in.
4
SPEAKER_00
I wouldn t know how to play someone popular or well balanced.
4
SPEAKER_00
I just, I mean, could I do it?
4
SPEAKER_00
I could kind of fake my way through it.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, could I play like a handsome popular CEO?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, you know, maybe I could.
4
SPEAKER_00
give that a try.
4
SPEAKER_00
Who used to be in a frat, like maybe, but I m always gonna be attracted to the oddballs and the weirdos and the people that have anxiety and alienation and just don t quite fit in.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s where my heart goes.
4
SPEAKER_00
Those are the people I m drawn to.
4
SPEAKER_00
Those are the people I love and those are the characters I like to play.
4
SPEAKER_00
Are you going to do some acting?
4
SPEAKER_00
You should do some acting.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, I actually did.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve done one audition.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, wow.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I didn t think I would enjoy it because I didn t grow up doing theater.
4
SPEAKER_00
I want to manage your acting career.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God, I would love that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Can I be your manager?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yes, that s really easy.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s easy.
4
SPEAKER_00
Emma, we ve got an audition for you.
4
SPEAKER_01
You can do the reads with me.
4
SPEAKER_00
No, that s how manager doesn t do that.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, come on.
4
SPEAKER_00
Just the first cost you.
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_01
Fine.
4
SPEAKER_01
Fine.
4
SPEAKER_01
Per hour or like per minute.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re more per minute for that.
4
SPEAKER_00
We could go a thousand dollars an hour.
4
SPEAKER_01
Ouch.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s fine.
4
SPEAKER_01
We ll work it out.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, actually there s something that s really interesting to me about acting is my entire career is quite literally it s
4
SPEAKER_01
all about me being myself all the time.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s all it is.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve almost never played a character and there s something so appealing to me and almost refreshing to me about the idea of doing the opposite.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think what s curious to me is like, can those who are familiar with me separate me from, me from,
4
SPEAKER_01
from what would be the character.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
It s almost like this opposite sort of like, for you, people talk to you and they re like, where s Dwight?
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that was kind of like Dwight.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like, are they gonna?
4
SPEAKER_01
with me, they re like, this is weird, she would never, they re immediately gonna be like, well, that s not her, that s not her, but maybe not, I don t know, I don t know how it would translate.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a relief from being yourself sometimes.
4
SPEAKER_00
It is.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I get to be in someone else s shoes, see the world through the lens that they see the world, can have thoughts and feelings that they re having, not necessarily what I m having, and there s something really magical about that transformation.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t wanna sound pretentious,
4
SPEAKER_00
It s exciting to do when you can hook in to a character s guts and transform from your normal sloppy self.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s great.
4
SPEAKER_01
Do you feel like as an anxious person, like it s an anxiety relieving sort of activity to be on set?
4
SPEAKER_01
It is interesting.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there is a, there s a different set of anxiety.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like if you re on a set and everyone s watching, how good are you?
4
SPEAKER_00
There s a certain anxiety.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you re on a stage and there s people watching, that s a different kind of anxiety.
4
SPEAKER_00
The kind of anxiety that I have has to do with just me being in my own skin.
4
SPEAKER_00
And just my anxiety, I do a lot of things to, I don t want to say control it, but to manage it.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I do exercise, I do prayer and meditation.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m in therapy and I have other tools to, you know, when it starts to creep up on me, I can recognize it and say, Oh, hi, there you are.
4
SPEAKER_00
Hi, hi, anxiety.
4
SPEAKER_00
What s going on?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, what do you need?
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, you re afraid right now.
4
SPEAKER_00
Do you need soothing?
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, to me, I feel like anxiety and my therapist works with me on this a lot.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like, it s like,
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a need that s not being met.
4
SPEAKER_00
So when it appears, it s like, you have to go not just, oh, I m a suffering, I m a slave, I m a victim to my anxiety.
4
SPEAKER_00
What s the next step?
4
SPEAKER_00
What is my anxiety telling me that I need?
4
SPEAKER_00
Is it telling me that I need to unplug for a while?
4
SPEAKER_00
Is it telling me I need to exercise?
4
SPEAKER_00
Is it telling me that I need a hug?
4
SPEAKER_00
Is it telling me that I need a nap?
4
SPEAKER_00
Is it telling me I need to be in nature?
4
SPEAKER_00
Is it telling me that I need to kind of finish those things that I ve been putting off for months that I said I was going to do?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, allow it to be your teacher and your guide.
4
SPEAKER_00
Don t allow it to become your master.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it takes a while to figure that out.
4
SPEAKER_00
It took me decades to kind of figure that out.
4
SPEAKER_00
But now when the anxiety rises, I get to detach from it with love.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s welling up.
4
SPEAKER_00
I get to go, oh, there you are.
4
SPEAKER_00
Put my arm around it.
4
SPEAKER_00
What do you need?
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, what do you need?
4
SPEAKER_01
Do you get panic attacks?
4
SPEAKER_00
I used to get panic attacks a ton in my twenties.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m going through that phase right now.
4
SPEAKER_01
I get so, so many and it s horrible.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like, and it s, but it almost becomes, I think this thing where, and maybe you had this experience too, where it s like you become afraid of getting another one because you know how debilitating it is to get one.
4
SPEAKER_00
and you start to feel it well a little bit, like you feel the hackles rise and your breath gets a little short and you re like, oh no, I m gonna get one, and you get more anxious.
5
SPEAKER_00
We re a little nervous.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now you re like fully having a panic attack.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s horrible.
5
SPEAKER_00
There are two different types of anxiety.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s like anxiety that comes as a reaction of something and it s inevitable.
5
SPEAKER_00
Being on stage, of course you re anxious.
5
SPEAKER_00
But then there s anxiety that s like, it s almost unnecessary.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s not
5
SPEAKER_02
it seemingly comes from nowhere.
5
SPEAKER_02
But you know how you get in through an anxiety attack, like you learn, you don t fight it, you just, you recognize, oh, here it is, and it sucks, but you have to breathe through it, and you know it s gonna pass.
5
SPEAKER_02
You don t hold your breath, you breathe.
5
SPEAKER_02
I would always lay down on the floor, and kind of fetal position, and just, and then it would pass, and then you learn, okay, it s gonna pass.
5
SPEAKER_02
I used to get them on talk shows,
5
SPEAKER_02
So when I was doing the big talk shows like Letterman and Leno and Kimmel and stuff like that, I would get them before the talk show.
5
SPEAKER_02
And that was part performance, but it was also part imposter syndrome of you re not funny enough, you re not good enough, people aren t gonna like you.
5
SPEAKER_00
Where was the pressure coming from to be funny?
5
SPEAKER_00
Was it coming from within?
5
SPEAKER_00
Was it coming from the industry?
5
SPEAKER_00
Where was that pressure?
5
SPEAKER_02
It s two parts.
5
SPEAKER_02
Number one, it s the most artificial form of entertainment there is.
5
SPEAKER_02
If you re going on Jimmy Kimmel, you talk to the producer.
5
SPEAKER_02
We re gonna have you on for six minutes.
5
SPEAKER_02
What funny things happened to you?
5
SPEAKER_02
you know, what stories can we tell?
5
SPEAKER_02
And they re looking, it s kind of scripted.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s worked out ahead of time.
5
SPEAKER_02
And you re expected, and especially for someone like me, I m expected to go on there and be really funny, right?
5
SPEAKER_02
Because I m the guy who played Dwight, but I m not a standup.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like I m an actor, I play characters, and the characters are written funny.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m a little bit funny, but I m not like that kind of funny.
5
SPEAKER_02
You know, I m not like,
5
SPEAKER_02
Seth Rogen funny or, you know, standup comic funny, you know, John Mulaney funny.
5
SPEAKER_02
I can t just go riff and just be brilliant.
5
SPEAKER_02
So that s the one pressure.
5
SPEAKER_02
And then the other pressure is like, oh, you re not going to be funny.
5
SPEAKER_02
They re going to see through you.
5
SPEAKER_02
You re going to see what a loser you really are.
5
SPEAKER_02
And, and, you know, then there s that imposter syndrome kind of thing.
5
SPEAKER_02
And then that s the fear of like,
5
SPEAKER_02
They re not going to like me.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m going to bomb.
5
SPEAKER_02
So it s this two pressures.
5
SPEAKER_02
So that was that was tough to negotiate for a while.
5
SPEAKER_02
It only lasted a couple of years.
5
SPEAKER_02
But then and then I got through it.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re podcasting it up.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m potting it up.
5
SPEAKER_00
So you, are you balancing potting and acting or are those?
5
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m in a great space because I used to just be all about my acting career and I had such a low self esteem if I wasn t working or if I wasn t getting new work.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I m, it s definitely things have kind of slowed down to a certain degree.
5
SPEAKER_02
Um, but you never know in showbiz all of a sudden I could do something and it takes off and things work out great.
5
SPEAKER_02
But,
5
SPEAKER_02
So I m still acting, I m gonna go do a movie in two months in New York, and I m gonna do a play in LA later this year, so I m gonna do the acting, but I wrote this book called Soul Boom, Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution, and it s really about the power of spirituality to affect your life, both on a personal level, but also on a societal level.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I love having those kind of conversations, like just the conversation we re having about anxiety and mental health,
5
SPEAKER_02
But also like, how do we make the world a better place?
5
SPEAKER_02
And how do we think about spiritual tools to help transform the world?
5
SPEAKER_02
We ve just recorded like 15 episodes of the Soul Boom podcast that s coming out in April.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I love it.
5
SPEAKER_02
It is absolutely my bliss is to be having
5
SPEAKER_02
these kind of conversations, meaningful, deep, impactful conversations that are also a little funny.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_00
So we re on a little, a little funny.
5
SPEAKER_02
We re cut from the same cloth.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_02
Chamberlain.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_02
And, um, uh, you re my second favorite Chamberlain, Richard Chamberlain.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I m happy to be second.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s easy for me.
5
SPEAKER_00
But if you met my dad, I would be third.
5
SPEAKER_00
And if you met my mom, I might actually be fourth.
5
SPEAKER_02
Oh, wow.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have like fun parents.
5
SPEAKER_00
They re great Chamberlains.
5
SPEAKER_00
I know.
5
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
5
SPEAKER_02
So doing this pod and this kind of work and writing and
5
SPEAKER_02
is I love it and I get to do that in acting.
5
SPEAKER_02
So it s just win-win.
5
SPEAKER_00
See, that s great.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s nice to do a little bit of everything.
5
SPEAKER_00
But for some reason, when I saw that you had this new podcast coming out, I was like, is this the new vision?
5
SPEAKER_00
Are we still acting?
5
SPEAKER_00
Or is this the new vision?
5
SPEAKER_00
But I think it s exciting to hear that.
5
SPEAKER_00
No, it s like you re just adding this on to what you re already doing.
5
SPEAKER_00
Acting is not done.
5
SPEAKER_00
Is your relationship to acting still healthy?
5
SPEAKER_00
Do you feel like you re gonna act forever?
5
SPEAKER_02
I feel like I m gonna act forever.
5
SPEAKER_00
Whoa!
5
SPEAKER_02
I don t know where that s gonna go.
5
SPEAKER_02
I love doing theater.
5
SPEAKER_02
I spent my first nine years as an actor doing theater.
5
SPEAKER_02
I may do a lot more, but I would like to die on stage.
5
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
5
SPEAKER_02
Playing like King Lear or something like that and have a heart attack.
5
SPEAKER_02
I love that.
5
SPEAKER_02
That s how I wanna go.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s amazing.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
And iconic.
5
SPEAKER_02
And hopefully I don t shit myself and puke on the stage when I do it.
5
SPEAKER_00
You will.
5
SPEAKER_02
Can it, would it be possible for me to die on stage like, sexy, in a sexy way?
5
SPEAKER_00
Maybe, but like, I think the shitting, the shitting always happens.
5
SPEAKER_02
Piss myself, like, blood.
5
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it could be kind of romantic, and like, maybe somebody catches you.
5
SPEAKER_00
We could plan it.
5
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ll manage that.
5
SPEAKER_02
Okay, you ll manage my death on stage?
5
SPEAKER_00
You manage my acting career.
5
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then I will then, in return, deal.
5
SPEAKER_00
Manage this.
5
SPEAKER_02
Deal.
5
SPEAKER_00
However, I know you mentioned earlier $1,000 an hour.
5
SPEAKER_00
First, let s get that down to $500 an hour.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then I ll manage.
5
SPEAKER_02
Do you see where I m at?
5
SPEAKER_00
Do you watch what you re in?
5
SPEAKER_02
Rarely.
5
SPEAKER_00
I wouldn t if I was an actor.
5
SPEAKER_02
I watched all the Office episodes once.
5
SPEAKER_02
So there s a lot of them I haven t seen in literally like 16 years.
5
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
5
SPEAKER_02
So people will ask me Office trivia and I was like, I have no idea what you re talking about.
5
SPEAKER_00
I can imagine you don t even remember shooting half of it, probably.
5
SPEAKER_02
I don t even remember.
5
SPEAKER_02
Right?
5
SPEAKER_02
People will say, remember the scene when you put Creed in the trunk of your car and you guys were eating hot dogs with Andy on the roof?
5
SPEAKER_02
I have no idea.
5
SPEAKER_00
No, I get it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Do you have a show that you watch as people watch The Office?
5
SPEAKER_02
No, I mean, there s shows that I love that a lot of other people love that are just great television.
5
SPEAKER_02
I re-watched The Sopranos again recently, and God, it was so much fun.
5
SPEAKER_02
I just love that show so much.
5
SPEAKER_02
I feel like there s a lot of other of those kind of shows I want to re-watch, the greats.
5
SPEAKER_02
Mad Men is great, Breaking Bad is great.
5
SPEAKER_02
Love Game of Thrones.
5
SPEAKER_02
Have you seen any of these?
5
SPEAKER_02
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
5
SPEAKER_02
Stop.
5
SPEAKER_02
No, can I tell you something about me that s crazy?
5
SPEAKER_02
You need to shut the fuck up right now.
5
SPEAKER_00
You need to send me a list.
5
SPEAKER_02
Have you not seen?
5
SPEAKER_02
I ve never seen The Sopranos.
5
SPEAKER_02
Have you seen Breaking Bad?
5
SPEAKER_02
Game of Thrones?
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh my god, I don t know how to have this conversation with you.
5
SPEAKER_01
Can we wrap this up?
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh my god.
5
SPEAKER_00
I know, I need to send you home.
5
SPEAKER_02
Cause this is what you re doing all the time.
5
SPEAKER_02
And you could be doing this.
5
SPEAKER_02
Instead of this.
5
SPEAKER_02
Kids, get off your fucking asses and doing this.
5
SPEAKER_02
And start clicking.
5
SPEAKER_00
Can I tell you my excuse?
5
SPEAKER_00
I didn t grow up with cable.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I grew up with a computer.
5
SPEAKER_00
I watched so much YouTube growing up.
5
SPEAKER_00
That was my thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ve watched a very limited number of... Don t you love entering the world of a show, though?
5
SPEAKER_02
I do.
5
SPEAKER_02
I do.
5
SPEAKER_02
The slow thing of there s eight or 10 or 20 episodes a year and you re going on an eight year journey.
5
SPEAKER_02
I do.
5
SPEAKER_02
Get the popcorn and put your phone away and just immerse.
5
SPEAKER_00
Popcorn sounds so good.
5
SPEAKER_00
Wow, buttery popcorn.
5
SPEAKER_00
Think about how good that sounds right now.
5
SPEAKER_02
Did you see Dune?
5
SPEAKER_00
No.
5
SPEAKER_00
I saw the first one actually.
5
SPEAKER_02
You haven t seen Dune II?
5
SPEAKER_02
No.
5
SPEAKER_02
Did you see the first one in the theater?
5
SPEAKER_02
No.
5
SPEAKER_00
God damn it!
5
SPEAKER_00
You have to go to the theater and see the second one!
5
SPEAKER_00
Is it so good?
5
SPEAKER_00
So good!
5
SPEAKER_00
Really?
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, it s so good!
5
SPEAKER_00
Okay, I m gonna so see that.
5
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I like am very... I ve seen very few...
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movies and I ve seen and I ve watched very little TV, like there s something about me.
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There s something wrong with you.
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There s something wrong with me.
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No, it s, it s because I grew up on watching YouTube that I love YouTube.
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Like when, at the end of the day, when I go home and I m, and I m want to put something on, on the TV, I m putting up YouTube.
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You know, I have watched a few shows all the way through.
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I I ll tell you, have you watched how to with John Wilson?
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Yes, I love it.
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That I re-watch constantly.
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But that s like a YouTube show.
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I re-watch The Office, but it s fine.
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But then I also rewatched... How many times have you seen The Office?
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Twice all the way through, which is a lot for me.
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That is a lot for you.
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That s a lot for me.
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Yeah.
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For an average office fan, that ain t shit.
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No, no, no.
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I m actually a rookie of the year, but I don t watch a lot of TV.
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I don t know, but I feel like a rookie being bad at TV.
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I m gonna give you some names of some shows, and it s okay.
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SPEAKER_00
Are you gonna forgive me?
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SPEAKER_00
I m gonna forgive you.
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SPEAKER_00
Are you gonna fire me even though I m your client and you re my manager?
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SPEAKER_01
It s a generational thing.
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I get it.
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I understand it.
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Now we need to get spiritual.
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I would love to get spiritual.
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I m curious, are you a spiritual person because of your childhood?
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Because you grew up with a rich, you know, sort of spiritual experience?
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Did you become more spiritual as an adult out of necessity because life gets just more complex?
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And like, I feel like
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Every year that goes by, I need to be more spiritual, I m finding.
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When I was younger, I was like, eh, don t need it.
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Now I m like, oh my God.
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When you say spiritual, what does that mean to you?
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Because that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
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For me, spiritual is any sort of feeling of connection to something bigger.
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And it doesn t matter what it is.
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It can be religious, it could be completely personal.
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Like for me, I went to a Jewish preschool and then a Catholic high school.
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So, but I am not.
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super religious, like I never went to church with my family on the weekend.
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So it was like around me, but I wasn t super religious.
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And then as I m growing older, I m becoming more spiritual out of necessity.
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Like actually, it s like all, I cannot survive without that element.
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I think a lot of Gen Z, my understanding is that Gen Z more and more are turning to potential spiritual answers for
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not only the anxiety, depression, alienation, loneliness that they might feel, struggle with, addiction issues, overwhelm, but also as the systems around us continue to fail, the political system is dog shit, let s face it.
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The, you know, the economic system is increasingly unfair.
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Racism and sexism continue to rear their heads constantly.
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you know, the environment is degraded.
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I think Gen Z people are more and more interested in looking at what would a spiritual solution to this look like based on spiritual concepts like compassion and mutuality and consultation and love and selfless service toward others.
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SPEAKER_01
And I definitely feel that in your generation.
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It s a uniquely challenging time because it is cushy and comfortable in ways to live today compared to 100 years ago, you know what I mean?
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But then in other ways, it s so complex.
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But I think that there s been a dismantling of traditional religion in America anyway, where there s so many people who are rejecting a traditional approach, but they still need that
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something spiritual.
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What s your spirituality routine right now?
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Well, let me go back to the first question you asked, because when I said I left the Baha i faith when I was a kid and I went into my adulthood, what happened for me is anxiety, depression, addiction, loneliness hit me hard in my 20s.
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And back in the 90s, there weren t a lot of answers for those things.
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It wasn t like you couldn t go to betterhelp.com.
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SPEAKER_01
You couldn t get the mindfulness app.
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SPEAKER_01
You couldn t listen to the podcast on wellness.
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SPEAKER_01
Like there weren t these resources out there.
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A couple of self-help books in the Barnes and Noble, but that was about it.
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SPEAKER_01
So I know who could afford therapy back then.
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So I turned to the only thing I knew, which was spirituality.
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So I started,
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out of my personal misery, started reading the writings of the Buddha.
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And I read the Bible, and I read the Koran, and I was searching for something.
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Because I thought, well, maybe if I tap into some greater meaning and some greater connection beyond, like you said, myself, then I will find some
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solace.
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And I think humans are wired this way.
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Humans are wired to be spiritual.
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We always want to find something greater than ourselves.
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We always want to worship something greater than ourselves.
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And that might be money.
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That might be your career.
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It might be celebrity.
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Who knows what it is, but we always want to
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we wanna find something greater than ourselves to worship in a way.
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But oftentimes we re worshiping the wrong thing.
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We re worshiping success or worshiping status or worshiping our social media personas.
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But what would it be like to worship, oh, I don t know,
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God.
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And by God, I don t mean an old white man on a cloud with a beard who s judgmental.
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That s not what I m talking about, but some kind of power force that courses through this universe and infinite other universes that we can tap into and find inspiration and connection.
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So I came to spirituality out of necessity, not out of virtue.
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And I think that
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That doesn t mean I m arrived or especially wise or illumined or anything like that.
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I just, I needed it to cope.
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And that brought me back to my Baha i faith of my childhood, and I am a participating member of the Baha i faith.
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But I think for everyone, it s what tools can we find from spirituality, from all the different rich, beautiful faith traditions to make our lives better.
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So my daily practice is prayer and meditation every morning, a connection with my higher power.
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And I m able, I have a little bench out in my backyard, so I m able to kind of
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connect with nature, and there s hummingbirds, and there s, you know.
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You said it so well, just instantaneous, like, what does spirituality mean to you?
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And you re like, connection.
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And it s all about connection, and it s connection with something greater than ourselves.
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And that can be a friend group, you know, as we re increasingly isolated.
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So I connect with my friends, and I try and think about my life in terms of
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Here I have, I ve been given these talents and attributes for whatever reason.
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I m this big, weird character actor who s intrigued by spirituality and issues around mental health.
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Like, what can I offer?
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Because when I m able to give of myself, not only does it benefit the world, it also makes me feel better.
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So I try and harness that as well.
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It s so true.
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When do you feel the most
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spiritually aligned.
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I don t know if I ve ever felt perfectly spiritually aligned.
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I feel like I m always working on it.
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Yeah, I don t think it s something you arrive.
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You never arrive at the mountaintop and all of a sudden you re there.
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It s a process.
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It s a mastery.
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If anyone undertakes tennis or tai chi or chess or one of these things, they are
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You re seeking mastery, but that doesn t mean you ever arrive.
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You seek to become better and better at it, and gather more and more tools.
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But when I feel the most spiritual is in nature, and I try and go camping at least once or twice a year, and really do hardcore.
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There s a psychologist who came out recently with this thing, I forget who they were,
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Apologies, I forget who it is.
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But they talk about how we need to get outside at least every day.
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Then we need to have play dates in nature at least once or twice a week.
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And then we also need to go isolate in nature at least once every couple months.
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So think about connecting with nature on ever deepening ways.
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for our well-being, but I also, like you said, connection, like love, gratitude, connection with others is where I find God, you know?
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SPEAKER_01
And it s, yet do I worship like a power greater than myself?
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SPEAKER_01
Do I worship some kind of like cosmic energy force that s creativity and beauty and music all wrapped into one?
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SPEAKER_01
Yes, I do.
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And I believe that that force is very powerful.
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But I also find God just in connection with others.
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SPEAKER_00
Amen.
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SPEAKER_01
I m finding God in this podcast room with you.
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SPEAKER_00
Really?
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Right here.
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Oh my God.
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SPEAKER_00
You re like my God today.
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SPEAKER_01
Stop it.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean it.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean it.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes.
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Is that what your God does?
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SPEAKER_00
God picks his nose too.
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SPEAKER_00
Sorry.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay.
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SPEAKER_00
That was amazing.
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I feel like we can set each other
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and free today.
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Let s do it.
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Do you feel like we nailed it?
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Total freedom.
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What do you have after this?
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Do you get to go take a nap?
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SPEAKER_02
I might go take a nap today.
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SPEAKER_00
I am going home and I m taking a nap, 100%.
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And then I m gonna play tennis tonight.
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SPEAKER_00
Cute.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
Hey, thank you for doing this.
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SPEAKER_01
Okay, thanks.
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SPEAKER_01
Thanks for having me.
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SPEAKER_01
It was so fun.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it was great.
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SPEAKER_01
I can t wait for your podcast.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, well, there s an open invitation if you would like to come.
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SPEAKER_00
I would love.
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We shoot it out in suburban LA.
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It s a little drive, but it s really fun, and I guarantee you there ll be delicious snacks and an invigorating conversation.
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SPEAKER_00
We d love to have you on Soul Boom.
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SPEAKER_02
I would love to.
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SPEAKER_02
Okay, we ll get that on the books.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay.
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SPEAKER_02
You re the best.
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SPEAKER_00
Appreciate it.
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SPEAKER_00
Yay.
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Bye.