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Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip.
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I m Kelsey McKinney, and in each episode of this podcast, we re going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world.
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I am so excited to have with me today Lindy West and Megan Hatcher Mays.
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They are the co-hosts of Text Me Back, a comedy podcast about their deranged best friendship.
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You can support Text Me Back on Patreon now.
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Before becoming a wildly successful part-time podcast host, Megan worked as an expert on democracy policy and the courts, most recently at the nationwide grassroots organization Indivisible.
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Lindy West is also the author of the email newsletter, Butt News.
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She has published three books, shit, actually, as well as the New York Times bestselling memoir, Shrilled, Notes from a Loud Woman, and the essay collection, The Witches Are Coming.
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Her next book, Adult Braces, will be available for pre-order soon.
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Lindy and Megan, welcome!
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Thank you.
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Hello.
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Best day ever.
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It s so fun to have friends on here because you guys are already used to gossiping with each other, I think.
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Oh, hell yeah.
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Yeah.
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Very much so.
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I was just in Seattle visiting Lindy.
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We did a live show for our podcast.
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Text me back.
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And I was visiting her.
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We went out into her hidden
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Woods log cabin of delight.
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And we just spent the whole time being like, you remember what happened to so and so from high school?
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It was great.
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It was like four days of being like, wow, what a weird guy that was.
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It was sensational.
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I love that because your podcast is so much about friendship and your relationship.
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I was hoping that you could start by talking about what how gossip functions between the two of you.
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Like how do you send it?
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What s your favorite kind?
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Have there been any dramas recently?
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I feel like I have such a conflicted relationship with gossip.
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Not really.
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It s just like my true self and then my higher self are at war, where there s nothing that I love more than gossip in the world at all.
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and yet I know that maybe I m doing something bad.
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But I will never stop.
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I would say my favorite kind of gossip is when someone that I hate has something bad happen to them.
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I mean, what s better than that?
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Someone that you hate that you don t actually have any close contact with anymore, but then you can detect from the internet that something terrible has happened in their life, and then you can sleuth it out.
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That is the greatest feeling.
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Wait, like, can you give me an example of a way in which you might sleuth out that something bad has happened to someone?
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Well, you know, like a classic start to this tale would be, I was lurking on my enemy s Instagram, and then I noticed that all the pictures of their husband are gone.
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Yes.
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That s happened for me right now, where I m like, this person I follow is like, all of a sudden,
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They re never posting pictures of their husband.
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They re always like, the most special people in my life.
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And it s like three people I ve never seen before.
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And I m like, something is going on.
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I feel like I have to send a DM and be like, how s everything going?
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Oh my gosh, everything looks so cute.
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How s the husband?
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doing well, alive, answer the question.
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Megan, as a lawyer, do you have special powers or can you get a contact in the courts where your enemy lives and see if a divorce has been filed?
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Is that a power you have?
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I mean, I guess I probably could.
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I feel like TMZ does it all the time.
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But I ve never done that.
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But now that you mention it, perhaps I will look into it.
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Imagine just munching on the documents.
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I know.
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One of my biggest complaints is that rich people can have arbitration and not file court documents.
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I m like, I think this is unfair.
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I don t think that your money should get to keep your gossip from me.
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I think I should still get to have it as a treat.
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I think that s right, as like a little treat.
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Also, this is not like an original thought, but when someone dies, can you just go ahead and put what they died of in the announcement so that I don t have to be like, so-and-so s name obituary, so-and-so s name cause of death, looking through their Instagram to see, oh, are you donating to any charities that are disease related?
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And speaking of my higher self versus my true self, that is where I m most at war.
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I was like, I need to know.
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And I ve actually left instructions for my spouse.
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I was like, if I die before you put in the announcement what I died of, don t leave people in suspense.
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It s like, the final gift you could give to me is the goss.
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Tell them what happened.
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Yeah.
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At least do hashtag end
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lupus or something.
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I know what it was.
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I ve been doing a lot of Ancestry.com research lately, as true Lindyheads know, because I won t shut up about it.
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That is one thing.
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I mean, obviously, there s a lot of mystery in the past, and there s a lot of stuff that I can t uncover.
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But in the event that I find a newspaper article, the way that these things are written, it gives you the goods.
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I found some, I don t know, it was like my husband s
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triple great-grandmother or something died.
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This is not even a person we ve ever heard of.
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I m sure she was really nice.
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My higher self, again, is saying, Lindy, you need to be more delicate with this, but I m not going to do that.
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This newspaper article was like, naked woman runs out of burning house on fire, collapses on lawn, screaming, dies screaming while neighbors watch.
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I was like, yes!
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Finally!
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Saluting your great-great-great-grandmother like, thank you.
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Thank you, Judy!
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I mean, obviously, great tragedy.
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I m so sorry that happened to you.
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I hope they investigated why your house caught fire and then you caught fire and when no one helped you.
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Actually, also in my Ancestry.com research, I found a gossip column about my grandparents.
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Do you want me to read it to you?
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I actually just – Okay, hang on.
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It s so good.
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It s so good.
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GZ Well, her grandpa started the West Coast CBS Radio Bureau or something, so he was a little bit of a man about town.
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People were real interested in his personal life, and it got kind of juicy.
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I don t know.
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TG And then my grandma was a singer.
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First of all, I found this clip of her.
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It s a picture of her in the newspaper, and then the caption says, here is the sultry-voiced Mona Lowe who turns radio waves into heat waves.
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with the songs her mother never taught her.
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I was like, excuse me?
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Excuse me?
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Grandmother?
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Where you were singing sex songs on the radio?
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Which I m sure was like, was like, tie, tie the red ribbon.
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I showed my kneecaps to my lover.
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Okay, but so then I find this, it s very short, this little gossip item.
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And, like, I didn t know either of these grandparents because my dad was hella old.
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This grandfather died in 1953.
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Luckily, there s a record in the newspaper.
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So this says – this must be from, like,
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1932 or something, 31.
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Radio artists in the past have had the habit of running off to get married secretly.
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Consequently, when Winnie Parker, parentheses Mona Lowe, of NBC, and Paul Rickenbacker, prominent among local announcers – yeah, West is like Paul Rickenbacker s stage name.
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It s not even a real name, and yes.
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So I should be Lindy Rickenbacker, but I m not.
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when Winnie Parker of NBC and Paul Rickenbacker, prominent among local announcers, were seen together, gossip swept radio circles.
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Pinned down, Rickenbacker writes this column as follows,
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Dear Ken, in regard to a rapidly spreading rumor concerning a so-called romance between Mona Lowe or Winnie Parker and myself, a rumor which I have just learned is causing the young lady in question a bit of discomfort.
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It is all, shall we say, premature.
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We are friends.
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Good friends.
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But as far as I know – I know, right?
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But as far as I know, I have not been fortunate enough to believe that it can be called, rightfully, more than just friendship yet.
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Still, she is a marvelous girl.
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Oh, that s hot.
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I m sweaty.
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I know.
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That s the best thing that s ever happened to me.
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Can you imagine?
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It should actually be the law that everyone has a gossip column written about them, even if it goes into a vault for two generations, and then your grandchildren get to read it.
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I guess that s a diary.
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I guess that s just reading your grandma s books.
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Okay, are the two of you ready to hear the gossip that I have prepared?
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Yes.
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Okay, I want to start by asking you both if you have ever been in a group that, like, ostensibly has a purpose, like a book club, but is, like, mainly about yapping and drinking.
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Yes.
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Yes, absolutely.
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Many of my jobs, yes.
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What has your experience in those groups been like?
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Well, truly, many of my jobs that I ve had have become sort of like coffee clutches, I guess, where you sort of like make work besties.
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I think there s something really special about just like playing Uno and drinking Sauvignon Blanc with your friends after work and being like, the ops manager is a real bitch.
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of things that can be really, it can really bring you closer with your friends.
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Yeah, like having been a freelance writer now for like 15 years, sometimes I m like, I wish I could just work retail like one day a week just for the catharsis of complaining about your manager after work.
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Okay, today s story is about one of these groups.
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Okay.
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But to talk about the drama, we have to go back to its founding.
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The year is 1974.
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We re talking full skirts, swing coats, Nixon has just finished his presidency, Happy Days is on TV, The Godfather Part II is in theaters, and the Ramones have just played their first show.
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Wow, we re excited.
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Our story is set in a suburb.
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It doesn t really matter which one, just like somewhere outside of a midsize city.
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Do either of you want to have a strong preference on which area of the country this should be?
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The Midwest.
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Great.
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It s a suburb in the Midwest.
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And our friend of a friend today is named Beverly.
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Ooh, a good Midwestern name.
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In 1974, Beverly was 25 years old.
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That s illegal for Beverly to be 25 years old.
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But okay.
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Don t worry, she won t be forever.
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She had just moved to a new city with her husband for his job, so she has no friends, and she has a new baby, and she s feeling, like, alone and scared.
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It s real, like, feminine mystique hours up in here.
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One day she s walking her baby outside, you know, in her little pram, and she runs into Mildred.
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Mildred is the coolest wife in the neighborhood.
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She s always dressed in the newest stuff.
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Her house is immaculate.
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Her whole kitchen is emerald green, like the cabinets, the stove, the fridge.
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Her husband is the HOA president, and she volunteers for an art board, right?
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Like, this is the vibe.
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Beverly has a Cheerio stuck in her hair, but she does not know this.
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And Mildred does not tell her.
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Mildred is not a girl s girl.
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She s not a girl s girl.
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She comes teetering over and she s like, you re Beverly, right?
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And Beverly s like, yeah, it s so nice to meet you.
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You re Mildred, right?
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And Mildred s like, yes.
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And Mildred s like, are you free tomorrow?
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And Beverly in her head is like, I m literally always free.
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But also, I have a baby.
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How do you handle this?
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Oh man, and it s the 70s, so we can t count on our husbands to take care of our kid for us for a night, can we?
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No, you cannot.
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So the question is, what do I do with my baby?
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Because I really want to be friends with Mildred.
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Yeah, just leave the baby home alone.
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1974, just put the baby in your car, it s fine.
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That s what they used to do.
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Do you have a Rottweiler that can watch the baby?
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Beverly s like, I would love to come, I d love to hang out with you, but I need to watch my baby.
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I don t have anyone to watch the baby.
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And Mildred is like, no, no, no, no, you have to come.
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My husband is going to talk to your husband, and your husband is going to watch the baby.
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Hmm.
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Oh, okay.
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And Beverly s like, what?
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One night a month, all the husbands in this neighborhood watch the babies.
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And that is our night to get our sanity back.
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Oh, wow.
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Okay.
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Well, I m liking that.
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I m like, I like I like the concept.
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I m worried about the execution.
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Yes.
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I guess we ll see.
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Beverly, in her head, is like, well, that s very modern.
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She s a little nervous.
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But she s also like, I would love to have a night away from my baby, meet some friends.
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She s like, all right, if you say it ll work, it ll work.
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Yeah.
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Mildred s like, you don t need to be nervous.
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Everybody s nervous their first time.
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OK.
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OK.
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What a phrase.
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What a phrase, Mildred.
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She s like, but once you get the hang of it, you just won t want to stop.
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You re going to love it.
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What is it?
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What?
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Mildred?
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Beverly s like, OK.
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And Mildred is like, OK, so it s at my house.
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It s at this time.
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It s tomorrow.
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She s like, one more thing.
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It s Greek themed.
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So I need you to wear a toga.
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She needs to get out of there.
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Mildred is some... No.
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There s some eyes wide shut business going on.
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You must be careful.
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The request to wear a toga.
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I feel like I don t know how to put myself into the brain of Beverly.
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Because if it was me, I would say, what?
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I would be like, what is this?
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I mean, I would ask follow up questions.
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And I would hit Mildred with my bag.
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over and over until she explained it to me.
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It s like, why are you speaking in Altondra?
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It s weird.
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This is all reasonable.
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That s not what happens.
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OK.
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Beverly is like, that sounds great.
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I ll see you then.
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So the next day she spends like 30 minutes, you know, safety pinning herself into a toga, which is like, lucky she has lots of safety pins because it s cloth diaper era.
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She arrives at Mildred s house and there are 11 women already there.
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All of them are in togas.
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At least it wasn t a prank where none of them are in togas.
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That s true.
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It could have been hazing, but they re all in togas.
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There are dips and spreads on all the tables.
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Okay, well then I m sold.
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Nevermind.
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Sure.
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I m sorry I beat Mildred.
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Because I like snacks.
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Yeah.
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And there s like a fake statue, like a fake marble statue in the middle of the room.
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Like they have gone all out for this theme.
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Mildred s house is decorated.
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And all of these women are so happy to meet her.
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They re like, hello, like welcome to the neighborhood.
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We re so happy to meet you.
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We re so happy you re here.
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Beverly is like the center of attention.
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There is also so much white wine.
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Just like cases of white wine.
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How do you maneuver this?
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Like how are you going to make friends?
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Well, we got to go get a glass.
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We got to go get a beveragino.
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We got to start because something weird is happening.
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And some might say coping with alcohol bad idea.
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But I don t know.
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That would be my first stop, would be the white wine table, the white wine keg.
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I understand being intimidated by Mildred, hottest wife in the neighborhood.
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Once you re at the party, everyone s mingling and wearing a toga, can t you sniff out someone that you re not scared of and be like, what s happening?
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Yes.
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She goes and gets her wine.
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She, like, finds some woman.
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We ll call her Louise.
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She s like, Louise, I don t know what I m doing here.
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What are we doing?
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And Louise is like, oh my god, you re fine.
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You re going to love it.
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What?
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More mystery?
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And Beverly s like, love what?
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And at this point, Mildred is like, dinner.
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So they all have to sit.
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There are three tables that are all set for dinner.
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There is a big salad, there s dips, there s chicken, there s baklava.
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It is a whole spread.
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Beverly s like, this rules.
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Like all I had to do was put on the toga and show up and now I m being fed a like three course Greek dinner.
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The dishes get cleared and then
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A gong is... Run, Beverly, run!
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Was it common practice to just have a gong in the home in the 70s?
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It is like a tabletop gong.
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OK.
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It s not like a giant.
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I want to be clear, it s not like a four-foot-tall gong.
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It s not an industrial gong.
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It s a portable, modest gong.
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It s a modest gong, exactly.
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Do either of you know what bunko is?
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No.
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It s like a game, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Yes.
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We are here to play bunko.
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OK.
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Bunko is sometimes referred to as the housewife s drinking game.
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Yes.
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I have heard of this.
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In this club are like, we love Bunko.
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It s so much better than book club because you don t have to read anything.
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I agree.
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It s true.
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Yes.
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The way Bunko works is that it s a game of chance, a game of luck.
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So each round, you re trying to roll a specific number.
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So round one, you re trying to roll
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a one.
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Each person gets three dice and you roll your three dice.
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If any of them is a one, you get one point.
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And you get to roll again.
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If none of them are a one, then the next person at your table goes and they roll their dice.
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The first person at your table to get to 21 points wins that round.
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Okay?
1
SPEAKER_01
The easiest way to win a round of Bunko is to have all three of your dices be the same number that the round is.
1
SPEAKER_01
So all ones in round one.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then you get to yell Bunko and then you get 21 points and the round ends.
1
SPEAKER_01
Each game of Bunko has six rounds.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it s like each side of the dice, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
You re going for ones, then for twos, then for threes, etc, etc.
1
SPEAKER_01
At the end of the game, all your scores are added up and a winner is declared.
1
SPEAKER_00
So is there a drinking component built into the game?
1
SPEAKER_00
Or is it just like you re drinking wine while you Bunko?
1
SPEAKER_00
You re just like drinking while you Bunko.
1
SPEAKER_01
But the other thing is that even though Bunko is completely luck and chance, it is a game for gambling.
1
SPEAKER_01
So there is a $5 buy-in in 1974.
1
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s like $87 now.
1
SPEAKER_01
I would like for the two of you to tell me how the other one of you plays games.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, we were just talking about this.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, Lindy loves games, but she s not competitive.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so I think she likes, like, you really like... I love a co-op game.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re having a nice time.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay, sorry to interrupt you, Megan, but I just want to say, I just want to add that I m kind of good at games.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, I feel like I have a sharp
1
SPEAKER_00
I m like a sharp mind.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to brag, but I m really good at games.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, this is like a curse, because as soon as I start to win a game, I feel horrible.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I m just like, I m sorry.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, every good move I make, like, I play cards a lot.
1
SPEAKER_00
I love to play cards.
1
SPEAKER_00
And like, I hate, I honestly hate winning, because I feel so bad.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, I feel like I m doing something bad to the other person.
1
SPEAKER_00
Meanwhile, Megan, I m a demon.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to lose anything.
1
SPEAKER_00
I am a sore loser.
1
SPEAKER_00
I hate losing to win.
1
SPEAKER_00
The thing is, I just feel like it s illegal for me to lose.
1
SPEAKER_00
a game.
1
SPEAKER_00
If I lose Uno, don t talk to me for a week.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m so mad about it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t have that feeling Lindy has at all.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m like, gotcha.
1
SPEAKER_00
It feels amazing.
1
SPEAKER_00
I love it.
1
SPEAKER_01
I love the angel and demon on the shoulders of gaming.
1
SPEAKER_00
Truly.
1
SPEAKER_01
Our girls begin playing Bunko.
1
SPEAKER_01
They re rolling, rolling, rolling.
1
SPEAKER_01
I want you to imagine how loud this is.
1
SPEAKER_01
There are three tables.
1
SPEAKER_01
All of them are rolling dice and yelling.
1
SPEAKER_01
They do the first round.
1
SPEAKER_01
They do the second round.
1
SPEAKER_01
On the third round, Beverly rolls three fours.
1
SPEAKER_01
And she s like, bunko!
1
SPEAKER_01
And everyone at her table is like, oh no no no sweetie, that s not bunko.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s round three, and you rolled fours.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s baby bunko.
1
SPEAKER_01
Baby Bunko s when you get three of the same number, but it s the wrong round.
1
SPEAKER_01
So you only get five points instead of 21.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
Getting Baby Bunko s is also a way to win.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because at the end of the night, there are three ways to get money out of this game.
1
SPEAKER_01
To have the highest points total across all the games.
1
SPEAKER_01
to have the most baby bunkos, or to have the lowest points total.
1
SPEAKER_01
Ooh, that s me.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s for me.
1
SPEAKER_01
If you get the lowest points total, you get the smallest monetary prize, obviously, but you also have to take home a booby prize that like everyone brings that has to be related to the theme.
1
SPEAKER_01
So like for this week s theme, there are like 12 jars of pimento olives.
1
SPEAKER_01
So Phyllis wins the booby prize.
1
SPEAKER_01
She has to take home all the jars of olives.
1
SPEAKER_01
Our girl Bev wins most baby bunkos.
1
SPEAKER_01
So she s like, this is a huge day.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m so proud of her.
1
SPEAKER_00
That sounds fun as hell.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m ready to
1
SPEAKER_00
be bunkified.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m changing – this is changing my life in this moment.
1
SPEAKER_00
From here on out, I am changed.
1
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, I have just moved into a rural community with – LAUREN You could be the bunko master.
1
SPEAKER_00
KATIE I might be the bunko master.
1
SPEAKER_00
They literally have game night at the community center.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it s time.
1
SPEAKER_00
LAUREN It s your time to shine.
1
SPEAKER_00
KATIE Oh my god.
1
SPEAKER_00
LAUREN Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Megan, how are you feeling?
1
SPEAKER_00
I m still feeling nervous.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m feeling worried.
1
SPEAKER_00
There s like an unsettling energy hovering over this game of Bunko.
1
SPEAKER_00
Although I m really proud of Beverly for her baby Bunko victories, I m unsettled but proud.
1
SPEAKER_01
Bev does not have any of these worries.
1
SPEAKER_01
She is drunk on white wine.
1
SPEAKER_01
She has $30 more than she came with.
1
SPEAKER_01
She s thrilled.
1
SPEAKER_01
She goes home, and her husband is so happy to see her.
1
SPEAKER_01
He s like, you seem so happy.
1
SPEAKER_01
And she s like, yeah, I have friends now.
1
SPEAKER_01
This is huge for me.
1
SPEAKER_01
And he s like, I m so happy for you.
1
SPEAKER_01
And she s like, how was it?
1
SPEAKER_00
He s like, it was fine.
1
SPEAKER_01
Unfortunately, the baby died while you were gone.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t know how to do this.
1
SPEAKER_01
Unfortunately, who knows where our child is?
1
SPEAKER_01
No, it went fine.
1
SPEAKER_01
The baby was fine.
1
SPEAKER_01
The way Bunko works as a group is there are 12 members and each member hosts one month.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
So month one was at Mildred s house, month two is at Louise s house.
1
SPEAKER_00
Question.
1
SPEAKER_00
Did someone die and that s how Bev got a spot?
1
SPEAKER_00
Great question.
1
SPEAKER_01
The only way to get a spot is if someone leaves.
1
SPEAKER_01
So someone moved.
1
SPEAKER_01
Not quite as dramatic as someone dying, but someone moved.
1
SPEAKER_01
So she s now into this group.
1
SPEAKER_01
The next month is at Louise s house.
1
SPEAKER_01
Louise is like, hey, can you come over early to help me set up?
1
SPEAKER_01
And Beverly s like, oh my god, I would love to.
1
SPEAKER_01
I would love to make a friend.
1
SPEAKER_01
So she goes over early.
1
SPEAKER_01
They re gabbing.
1
SPEAKER_01
Louise is like, hey, can you go get the bunco box?
1
SPEAKER_01
And Beverly s like, what s a bunco box?
1
SPEAKER_01
The bunco box is a box that goes from house to house.
1
SPEAKER_01
So if it s your month to do Bunko, you get the Bunko box.
1
SPEAKER_01
Inside the Bunko box are score sheets and tiny pencils.
1
SPEAKER_01
and the tabletop gong, and wine openers.
1
SPEAKER_01
Also in the Bunko box is the Bunko book.
1
SPEAKER_01
The Bunko book – it s the 70s – is a scrapbook where the score sheets and who won goes on a page and any Polaroids from that night and the theme.
1
SPEAKER_00
JG Does the host of the month get to pick the theme?
1
SPEAKER_00
Or is the theme commutative?
1
SPEAKER_01
Your house, your rules.
1
SPEAKER_01
I love it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so Louise s house s rules is this month it is Godfather Part 2 themed.
1
SPEAKER_01
There s red sauce pasta, there s only candles, there s like mood music, dark lighting, like they re eating meatballs, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Like everyone s having a great time.
1
SPEAKER_01
This month, Mildred wins, Bev wins nothing, Phyllis again gets biggest loser.
1
SPEAKER_01
Fucking Phyllis.
1
SPEAKER_01
Truly.
1
SPEAKER_01
The next month is Bev s month to host, because she has just slotted in.
1
SPEAKER_00
They threw her right in, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
She slotted in.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s like, well, you know, whatever month it is.
1
SPEAKER_01
So-and-so had March, you re so-and-so now, so what s your theme?
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m a weirdo.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I would do like snakes.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then I would like make a meatloaf shaped like a rat.
1
SPEAKER_00
So don t ask.
1
SPEAKER_00
Don t ask me.
1
SPEAKER_00
Incredible.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think you should absolutely start a Funko Club when you re ready.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think Bev should stay true to her heart.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, I don t know what Bev s hobbies and interests are, you know?
1
SPEAKER_01
Bev does exactly what you do.
1
SPEAKER_01
And she s like, what are my interests?
1
SPEAKER_01
And then she s like, do any of the things that I like rhyme?
1
SPEAKER_01
And the theme she comes up with is flip-flops and lemon drops.
1
SPEAKER_01
So everyone will wear flip-flops and everyone will drink lemon drop martinis.
1
SPEAKER_01
And she s like, that s cute.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s pretty cute.
1
SPEAKER_00
I like that.
1
SPEAKER_01
The ladies of Bunko love this.
1
SPEAKER_01
They re like, this is so creative.
1
SPEAKER_01
We re having a cocktail.
1
SPEAKER_01
Everyone s wearing flip-flops, which is so scandalous.
1
SPEAKER_01
The reason this story starts in 1974 is that this group does not break up.
1
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_01
The core members of this group stay the same, plus or minus two people who moved or died.
1
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_01
It is still together.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh!
1
SPEAKER_00
Whoa, that s awesome.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s so cute.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they re still bunkoing?
1
SPEAKER_00
They re still bunkoing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god, I m sorry.
1
SPEAKER_00
I thought they had unsettling energy.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s so cute.
1
SPEAKER_00
So the story never takes a turn to the dark side?
1
SPEAKER_00
They re just still like- I didn t say that.
1
Oh!
1
SPEAKER_00
Wait, I don t apologize for saying they have unsettling energy.
1
SPEAKER_01
They had so many themes over their sweet 50 years together.
1
SPEAKER_01
They had a Ghostbusters theme where everyone had to wear a little backpack.
1
SPEAKER_01
They had an Animal House theme where they got a keg.
1
SPEAKER_01
They had Grease Lightning theme where everyone had huge hair.
1
SPEAKER_01
They ve done Y2K.
1
SPEAKER_01
They ve done Britney Spears.
1
SPEAKER_01
They ve done Survivor.
1
SPEAKER_01
They ve done Shrek.
1
SPEAKER_01
They ve done The Notebook.
1
SPEAKER_01
And most recently, they did Vanderpump Rules.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yes!
1
SPEAKER_01
That s amazing.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because they ve been doing this for 50 years, they ve also run out of creative themes, so they ve also had themes like teapots and cats and pennies.
1
SPEAKER_00
Pennies?
1
SPEAKER_00
Everyone has to eat pennies instead of drinking.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yummy.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is it against the rules to repeat a theme, or is it just a matter of pride?
1
SPEAKER_01
It s not against the rules to repeat a theme.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was told that some people in this group have a theme that everyone loves so much that they do the same theme every single year.
1
SPEAKER_01
Fun!
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, that s their special theme.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s cute.
1
SPEAKER_01
But some people are just, you know, they re having fun.
1
SPEAKER_01
They want a new theme.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s exciting.
1
SPEAKER_01
You gotta mix it up a little when you ve been friends for 50 years.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Over the years in this group, there were many, many dramas.
1
SPEAKER_01
Someone s husband died and then she became a floozy.
1
SPEAKER_00
Ooh!
1
SPEAKER_00
That s what I m living for.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s what I like.
1
SPEAKER_01
I love that.
1
SPEAKER_01
Someone s daughter and son dated for a long time, and they got engaged, and then they broke it off.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh no!
1
SPEAKER_01
One night, Mildred had a big interview, so she left early, and then all of the Bunko Babes TP d her house.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes!
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I want to join this group so bad!
1
SPEAKER_00
I feel like this is truly the key to life.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
1
SPEAKER_00
These ladies are staying young.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I ve never done anything as young and vibrant as teepee someone s house.
1
SPEAKER_01
Another drama for you to weigh in on is one member died.
1
SPEAKER_01
Sad.
1
SPEAKER_01
Everyone was sad.
1
SPEAKER_01
But then there was a huge drama over who to replace her with because they were like, well, we ve had this regular sub who s come in for years who we really like.
1
SPEAKER_01
But the person who died had a sister, and the sister really wants to be in Bunko, but we hate her.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that s great!
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god, you have to, well, oh god.
1
SPEAKER_00
You cannot bring someone that you hate into the Sacred Bunko, absolutely not.
1
SPEAKER_00
Have some boundaries, have some boundaries, Belle from Beverly and Mildred.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m sorry for her shitty sister s feelings, but you cannot ruin the sanctity of the Bunko Babes with somebody with bad vibes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Come on, though.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they did not allow the sister in.
1
SPEAKER_01
They were like, sorry, but we already have someone for that seat.
1
SPEAKER_00
Our sub.
1
SPEAKER_01
But like any big group, the major dramas are one thing, but it s the minor dramas that start to really make you crazy, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, Louise s bunko always started late, which made everyone up late, and then they were grumpy the next day.
1
SPEAKER_01
Louise.
1
SPEAKER_01
Louise.
1
SPEAKER_01
Mildred was always pouring cocktails at, like, twice the amount of alcohol there should be in there, so everyone would be absolutely trashed, and then wake up with a hangover.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t see how that s a problem.
1
SPEAKER_00
Leave Mildred alone.
1
SPEAKER_01
And Phyllis was just like a bad host.
1
SPEAKER_01
She was never ready on time.
1
SPEAKER_01
She had no themes.
1
SPEAKER_01
She was just like opening bags of chips and being like, let s go.
1
SPEAKER_00
Serving a bowl of pennies for dinner.
1
SPEAKER_00
She lost every single time she was terrible and she was bad at hosting.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know what?
1
SPEAKER_00
One thing that really bothers me is when as a host, you feel like you ve gone above and beyond.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like if you re in sort of like a communal thing like that, you feel like you re given it your all and then you feel like you kind of like a free rider problem.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like Phyllis is like kind of riding the coattails of the rest of the group.
1
SPEAKER_00
That would bother me.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was like, no, we re all in this together, Phyllis.
1
SPEAKER_00
But if it s like Phyllis has a genuine deficiency where she cannot host good,
1
SPEAKER_00
But she s, like, really, really fun?
1
SPEAKER_00
KK – Yeah, like, I feel like that s where the beauty of community comes in, where it s like, okay, there s eleven other bunko players, maybe we just know that Phyllis  month, we re gonna bring, like, you know, a bag of mini Twix to the party, just to, you know, like, we re gonna just pull together and, like, zhuzh up Phyllis  shitty party, so that, just for the benefit of all, and to, because Phyllis needs a little bit of extra support, because she s a loser.
1
SPEAKER_00
for 50 years.
1
SPEAKER_01
She needs 50 years of extra support.
1
SPEAKER_01
The other problem is that you know, when you have close friends, and it s like they re doing something that annoys you, but you know them so well that you re like, I know why you re doing this thing.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, like everyone in this group is like Phyllis has three kids and like a shit husband.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, she can t help it.
1
SPEAKER_01
This is just like, her lot.
1
SPEAKER_01
This group has gone through everything together.
1
SPEAKER_01
They went through Harvey Wallbangers, and piña coladas, and wine coolers, and Long Island iced teas, and Cosmos.
1
SPEAKER_01
There were two months where they tried Four Locos, which almost killed the Bungo group.
1
SPEAKER_00
I like that they went back and did it again.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it wasn t Four Locos.
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, one s a fluke.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s true.
1
SPEAKER_01
The real drama in this story begins around 2018.
1
you
1
SPEAKER_01
At this point, we know some truths, like Phyllis s husband has died and she s still terrible at hosting.
1
SPEAKER_01
So we know that that s just a personality trait.
1
SPEAKER_01
She still loses all the time.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s a game of chance, Phyllis!
1
SPEAKER_00
How are you so bad at this?
1
SPEAKER_01
One pretty cute thing that happens with the Bunko group is over time they all move out of their like suburb that they lived in and into a retirement community.
1
SPEAKER_00
They all live in the same retirement community.
1
SPEAKER_00
Stop.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh my god.
1
SPEAKER_01
I love it.
1
SPEAKER_01
One thing that s important about this group that we haven t brought up yet is that if you can t go for whatever reason to Bunko that month, it is your job to find your replacement.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because they need 12 people.
1
SPEAKER_01
You want the three tables.
1
SPEAKER_01
You want people to be able to move up and down based on the table.
1
SPEAKER_01
You can t just have three people at one table.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s not allowed.
1
SPEAKER_01
So one night a few years ago, Beverly had to go to her youngest daughter s big career event, and it was on the same night as Bunko.
1
SPEAKER_01
So she needs a sub.
1
SPEAKER_01
How do you find a sub?
1
SPEAKER_01
You re in your mid to late 70s.
1
SPEAKER_00
We have a finite group to choose from at the nursing home.
1
SPEAKER_00
Your group dwindles every year.
1
SPEAKER_00
Are you allowed to choose a man as your sub?
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, great question.
1
SPEAKER_01
Once, this group allowed husbands to come, and it went so poorly that they banned all men.
1
SPEAKER_00
Phenomenal.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes, I love that.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s great.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Thank you for asking.
1
SPEAKER_00
Are there any nurses who have a good vibe?
1
SPEAKER_00
I would like to present myself to the world as a professional bunco substitute for
1
SPEAKER_00
You know?
1
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
1
SPEAKER_01
So you re a volunteering instructor.
1
SPEAKER_00
I do, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Can you imagine, like, if you were just, like, top of the roster and you were going to bunkos all over town?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
1
SPEAKER_00
Amazing.
1
SPEAKER_00
I would love that.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s a dream.
1
SPEAKER_01
Beverly starts calling all her daughters.
1
SPEAKER_01
Beverly s like, are any of you available to come do my bunko group?
1
SPEAKER_01
Right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because her daughters have, like, subbed in at various times over the course of 50 years.
1
SPEAKER_01
None of her daughters are available.
1
SPEAKER_01
But her oldest daughter is like, what about my oldest daughter, Michelle?
1
SPEAKER_01
She s in her 20s now.
1
SPEAKER_00
Huge day for Michelle.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
1
SPEAKER_00
What if Michelle went to bunko night?
1
SPEAKER_00
She s been hearing about it for years.
1
SPEAKER_00
She s so lucky.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m so excited for Michelle.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just hope Michelle doesn t fuck this up.
1
SPEAKER_00
Michelle, this is your moment.
1
SPEAKER_00
Michelle, get in your car.
1
SPEAKER_00
Go to the retirement community.
1
SPEAKER_00
Stop at the liquor store and get over there immediately.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is huge.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is major.
1
SPEAKER_01
So Michelle shows up to the Wonder Woman-themed bunko night.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
No idea what s going on.
1
SPEAKER_00
She s like, well, prayers up that this goes okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
Does she know any of these women?
1
SPEAKER_00
Are these her grandma s friends that she knows?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
She knows, I would say, at least 60% of these women from various Beverly events.
1
SPEAKER_01
Great.
1
SPEAKER_01
But she s met these women in the context of baby showers, birthday parties, weddings, and tonight they are absolutely fucking trashed.
1
SPEAKER_01
She s like, this is crazy.
1
SPEAKER_01
All of my grandma s friends are wasted beyond belief.
1
SPEAKER_01
And they keep bringing Michelle drinks.
1
SPEAKER_01
She s in her 20s.
1
SPEAKER_01
She has two and she s like, I m drunk.
1
SPEAKER_00
I have to spend the night.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can t go like she s like these women are like truly build different.
1
SPEAKER_01
So now she s like tipsy.
2
SPEAKER_01
trying to understand the rules of bunko, you know, the gong is going off, people are yelling baby bunko, there s dice sounds everywhere, she s so confused.
2
SPEAKER_01
How do you handle this?
2
SPEAKER_01
What s your move here to figure out what s going on?
2
SPEAKER_00
I m stressed just hearing about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I would be stressed, but I would just be I would just be chaotically throwing dice like Mildred, is this right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Louise, what s going on?
2
SPEAKER_00
I would feel very strongly that I would not want to give up.
2
SPEAKER_00
I feel like I d be fighting for the honor of my family, you know?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, well, you have to win.
2
SPEAKER_00
This one s for Beverly.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, this one s for Bev.
2
SPEAKER_00
She vouched for me.
2
SPEAKER_00
I have to take this seriously.
2
SPEAKER_00
I guess I have to keep drinking espresso martinis, and I m not giving up.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m just going to keep throwing the dice until somebody says something, because this is about family pride now.
2
SPEAKER_00
Honor.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, honor.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
What Michelle does is she s like, I ll watch other people, and that will help me understand what s going on, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
I ll bond with the ladies at my table, I m gonna watch what they do, and then I ll just copy it, and they ll tell me what to do.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s trying to learn.
2
SPEAKER_01
She gets like three twos in the first round and she s like, bunko!
2
SPEAKER_01
And the ladies are like, no girl, that s baby bunko.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s baby bunko, idiot.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then they re all like, oh my god, she s just like her grandma.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was just going to say, they were like, wow, it s giving Beverly in 1974.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s in her Beverly era.
2
SPEAKER_01
Now I have a question for the two of you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Have you ever cheated at a game?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Say more.
2
SPEAKER_00
I try to think of a specific moment, but it s just like, I hate losing.
2
SPEAKER_00
I hate it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s so annoying.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I remember I was playing a game, this was when I was like a kid, I was playing a game with my grandma.
2
SPEAKER_00
I want to say it was like, she taught me how to play rummy, my grandma.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that s a great game.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s a great game.
2
SPEAKER_00
And my grandma was a sweet, like sugar and spice Christian woman, you know, never raised her voice.
2
SPEAKER_00
She was so, so kind.
2
SPEAKER_00
But when this woman sat down at the rummy table,
2
SPEAKER_00
She just became a card shark.
2
SPEAKER_00
She was no longer Joyce Mays.
2
SPEAKER_00
She was somebody else entirely.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s wearing sunglasses.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s doing weird tricks with the truffle, throwing them all around.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was like, ah!
2
SPEAKER_00
So she taught me how to play Rummy.
2
SPEAKER_00
And there was this one thing where it was like, if one card was just in one place, I could have won the game.
2
SPEAKER_00
But it wasn t.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was too far back or whatever it was.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, I wish I could just grab this.
2
SPEAKER_00
And she was like, would you feel better if you cheated?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, and I just remember being like, yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was like, I want to I want to beat you so bad.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re so good at this.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you re so intense.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just I just want to win one time just to know what it s like.
2
SPEAKER_00
If I have to cheat.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
But of course, her face.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was like, Oh, no, I know.
2
SPEAKER_00
Horrible.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, of course.
2
SPEAKER_00
I would never I would never cheat cheat at cards.
2
SPEAKER_00
But you know,
2
SPEAKER_00
so she got me.
2
SPEAKER_00
I couldn t do it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I can t even I have the shame that I feel from winning.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just couldn t do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Michelle is paying closer attention.
2
SPEAKER_01
than anyone else at this table, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because she doesn t know what s going on at all.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she s had two extremely strong cocktails.
2
SPEAKER_01
So she s like gripping the table paying attention.
2
SPEAKER_01
And after the first round, she notices that Phyllis erases some of the points on her score sheet.
2
SPEAKER_00
Wait, Phyllis erases some of Michelle s points?
2
SPEAKER_01
Some of her own points.
2
SPEAKER_00
Some of her own points?
2
SPEAKER_00
Phyllis!
2
SPEAKER_00
Wait, but isn t it good to get points?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh no, but if you get the least points, then you get the olives!
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god, that little scammer.
2
SPEAKER_00
Is this how Phyllis keeps getting the booby prize?
2
SPEAKER_00
For seven years?
2
SPEAKER_00
Phyllis!
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
You scamming little minx!
2
SPEAKER_00
I can t believe it!
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
2
SPEAKER_00
They defended Phyllis.
2
SPEAKER_00
There were shitty parties and bad snacks.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
2
SPEAKER_00
Whoa.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
2
SPEAKER_01
At the end of the night, Phyllis wins Biggest Loser again.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she gets her little monetary cash prize, and she gets a little stupid Wonder Woman figurine or whatever.
2
SPEAKER_01
You little asshole!
2
SPEAKER_01
I can t believe it!
2
SPEAKER_01
So now the question is, you have been invited into your grandmother s sacred space with all of her friends, and you have learned that Phyllis is cheating.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
2
SPEAKER_00
You ve uncovered a fraud, is what you ve done.
2
SPEAKER_00
you have the power, you have the power to bring the whole thing crashing down.
2
SPEAKER_00
You have the power to bring the bunko babes to their knees.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, really what I would do is I would talk to my grandma and I would tell Bev and let Bev decide what to do.
2
SPEAKER_00
But and then maybe and then maybe Bev confronts Phyllis privately and it s like, you got to stop this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, it s interesting because then it s like a it s a matter of trust, you know, because it s like, well, Michelle, you sure did have a lot of
2
SPEAKER_00
espresso martinis, you know, are you sure about what you saw?
2
SPEAKER_00
There could be some gaslighting going on in this group that s been around for 50 years.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it s like they need to do a sting operation where like, next time Bev brings her own glass that has like a hole at the bottom.
2
SPEAKER_00
So she s like pretending to drink but she s really watching.
2
SPEAKER_00
Whoever picks the theme for the next one.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like the theme is there s no prize for the loser.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s the theme.
2
SPEAKER_00
The theme is honesty.
2
SPEAKER_00
And all 11 women turned to Phyllis and made eye contact with her.
2
SPEAKER_01
Grandma Bev calls Michelle the next day.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s like, how was it?
2
SPEAKER_01
Michelle s like, my head hurts so much.
2
SPEAKER_01
And Grandma Bev s like, oh, that s so nice.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she s like, oh, yeah, I had a great time.
2
SPEAKER_01
But she s like, you know, I did notice something.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t really know for sure what I saw, but I m pretty sure that I saw Phyllis at my table erasing points that she had scored during bunko.
2
SPEAKER_01
And her grandma is like, but you don t even really understand the rules of bunko.
2
SPEAKER_01
Gaslighting.
2
SPEAKER_01
And Michelle s like, you know what?
2
SPEAKER_01
That s a really good point.
2
SPEAKER_01
And her grandma s like, I don t know that I can do anything with information that you got on 16 espresso martinis, having no idea what the rules are.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s like, but thank you so much for letting me know.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s not doing conflict.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s not talking to Phyllis.
2
SPEAKER_00
nothing is gonna happen here.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s important to remember that this is Bev we re talking about.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s not Mildred.
2
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
A whole year passes.
2
SPEAKER_00
She kept that secret for a whole year?
2
SPEAKER_01
A whole year.
2
SPEAKER_01
Again, Beverly comes to Michelle and is like, I can t go this month.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you want to go?
2
SPEAKER_01
So you re Michelle.
2
SPEAKER_01
You ve been given the option to go again.
2
SPEAKER_01
Are you going again?
2
SPEAKER_01
Hell yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, of course.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now I have unfinished business.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
How are you going to use this night to find out?
2
SPEAKER_01
I m going to vindicate myself.
2
SPEAKER_00
I have been called a liar by my own grandmother.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s right.
2
SPEAKER_00
And attacked.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve been gaslit.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve been attacked.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve been thrown under the bus.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I won t stand for it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m sitting right
2
SPEAKER_00
fucking next to Phyllis.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m gonna be like, hi, Phyllis.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m just gonna be watching.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m still getting my sea legs, you know, with Bunko.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ll just be paying real close attention to what you re doing.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_00
Just let her know you ve got your eyes on her.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then I d be like, Mildred, back me up.
2
SPEAKER_01
Michelle goes, she has her little drinks, she keeps her eyes wide open.
2
SPEAKER_01
She doesn t start at Phyllis s table, but when she ends up next to her, she is like a hawk, like 100% focused on Phyllis s scorecard.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she notices that it s not only at the end of every round, it s during the round that Phyllis is erasing points, while people are focused on the dice.
2
SPEAKER_00
How has no one ever noticed this?
2
SPEAKER_00
This is diabolical.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is diabolical.
2
SPEAKER_01
Phyllis wins Biggest Loser.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh my god.
2
SPEAKER_01
At the end of the night, the host of this month s thing is like, hey, Michelle, your grandma is supposed to host next month.
2
SPEAKER_01
Could you take the bunko box for her to hand it off to her?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hell yeah, I will.
2
SPEAKER_01
Michelle is like, it is time to become a woman in STEM.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s like, I have the Bunko book, which is now like several Bunko books, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s been 50 years.
2
SPEAKER_01
It has all the payouts on it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
It has how many times these people have won.
2
SPEAKER_01
It has like who won what.
2
SPEAKER_01
So she s it s like spotlight hours, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like she is focused.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s got a spreadsheet.
2
SPEAKER_01
She assembles her investigation team.
2
SPEAKER_01
She learns.
2
SPEAKER_01
that Phyllis has won Biggest Loser eight or nine times every single year for 50 years.
2
SPEAKER_01
Which means that she has won more than $20,000.
2
SPEAKER_01
That scanner!
2
SPEAKER_00
She s such a scanner!
2
SPEAKER_00
Plus, all the booby prizes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
2
SPEAKER_00
If I m Phyllis, on some level, am I not like, wow, this is what you all think of me?
2
SPEAKER_00
You think I m this big of a fucking loser?
2
SPEAKER_00
I know!
2
I lose 75% of Bunko games?
2
That s $20,000?
2
$20,000.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God, this is unbelievable.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t even know what to say.
2
SPEAKER_00
I truly am like stunned.
2
SPEAKER_00
What do you do?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, God, that what a breach of trust by Phyllis.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s crazy.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s been scamming her best friends for 50 years with like no remorse.
2
SPEAKER_00
Uh-huh.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, as a person who s bad with money,
2
SPEAKER_00
I would have, I would probably be like, yeah, you know, I get $5 a month, or whatever, for 50 years, that probably adds up to like, what, like $25?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, she probably has no idea of the magnitude.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s true.
2
SPEAKER_00
Actually, I was just thinking, like, she probably doesn t even know, she probably hasn t done the math herself.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s probably not like she s taking the Bunko money and like, investing it
2
SPEAKER_00
Like in the stock market.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not like she has an IRA.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s no chance she has a secret savings account with like half a million dollars in it all from her ill-gotten bunco gains.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I just remember the detail about how Phyllis is a shitty host.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s not even pulling her weight.
2
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_00
It just feels like such a great violation.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s also, may I say, very funny.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s so funny that Phyllis did this for 50 years and it s like, you know, until Michelle showed up.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Young buck and fresh, fresh energy in the game to be like, her eyes are good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
She can see stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
Her metabolism processes alcohol quicker.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Michelle is like, I m going back to my grandmother.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think you have to.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s also like, I have to take her this Bunko box so that she can post the next month, so I have to see her anyway.
2
SPEAKER_01
So she goes over there and she s like, Grandma Bev, listen, I did some math based on the Bunko scorecards and I found, you know, this data that shows that Phyllis is winning Biggest Loser at the Bunko Games eight or nine times a year.
2
SPEAKER_01
And Bev s like, oh yeah, Phyllis, she s always just been terrible with the dice, just awful luck.
2
SPEAKER_01
And Michelle is like, I thought you might say that, so I ve prepared a PowerPoint.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then she opens the PowerPoint, and she s like, listen, you will have to be unbelievably lucky for this to happen.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s like, this is like picking out a specific atom from all the atoms of the humans on Earth.
2
SPEAKER_01
The odds of this happening are so low.
2
SPEAKER_01
Michelle s like, she would be several hundred times more likely to win the lottery multiple times in a row than she would have been to win this many times.
2
Oh my god.
2
That is crazy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And this is enough for Beverly.
2
SPEAKER_01
So she is like, it is time.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she tells a few of the ladies in her group, and there is not any forward conflict, because that s how these ladies are.
2
SPEAKER_01
But they begin to kind of ice out Phyllis.
2
SPEAKER_01
At Phyllis s next hosting month, no one brings extra snacks.
2
SPEAKER_01
So then it s very poorly hosted.
2
SPEAKER_00
Hell yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
No one throws Phyllis s grandbaby a baby shower.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, the baby s being punished.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s how you know they re pissed.
2
SPEAKER_00
Old ladies.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, sorry.
2
SPEAKER_00
I will now quote from the person who sent this in.
2
SPEAKER_01
The rumors will continue to swirl.
2
SPEAKER_01
The old white ladies will continue to act like old white ladies, and they ll be stuck in an inescapable Samuel Beckett style loop of scandal, gossip, rumor and orthotic shoes.
2
SPEAKER_01
But then we got another email.
2
SPEAKER_01
Stop!
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh my god.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like something has happened.
2
SPEAKER_01
The women realized that Phyllis was still winning.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s still winning Biggest Loser this whole time at every bunko night.
2
What?
2
SPEAKER_01
And finally, somebody told Mildred.
2
SPEAKER_00
Uh-oh.
2
SPEAKER_00
You should have gone to Mildred in the first place.
2
SPEAKER_01
And Mildred has sent a scathing email.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, hell yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
That Bev forwarded to Michelle so that she could see it.
2
SPEAKER_01
that is like, there has been cheating in this group, we will not stand for this.
2
SPEAKER_01
It does not name Phyllis, but it is very clear, like, we will not stand for this, this is a violation of the group rules, like, this is embarrassing, you are an adult woman, da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
2
SPEAKER_01
It also implements a new scoring system.
2
SPEAKER_01
The new scoring system is that the person to your right keeps your score.
2
SPEAKER_01
Genius.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s true, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
They institute these new rules.
2
SPEAKER_01
Two bunko nights, Phyllis wins nothing.
2
Ha!
2
SPEAKER_01
Got her.
2
SPEAKER_01
Michelle s like, well, well, well.
2
SPEAKER_01
Isn t that interesting?
2
SPEAKER_01
For the first time in like 50 years, this woman has not won in any categories.
2
SPEAKER_01
We are almost at the very end.
2
SPEAKER_01
How do you feel?
2
SPEAKER_01
Whose side are you on?
2
SPEAKER_00
OK, first of all, I want to apologize for thinking this was going to turn into some weird sex dungeon.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m so sorry.
2
SPEAKER_00
I thought that this kicks ass.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is the best thing I ve ever heard in my life.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love everything about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Bev and Mildred rock.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m obsessed with them.
2
SPEAKER_00
And shout out to Michelle.
2
SPEAKER_00
Is there anything more satisfying than solving a mystery?
2
SPEAKER_00
No.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, so good.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love that for her.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love that she is carrying on the tradition of Bunko.
2
SPEAKER_00
Even if this had all gone well, it s cute that she got to carry on the tradition of Bunko with Bev and with Bev s friends.
2
SPEAKER_00
But the fact that she got to solve a mystery and that there was a fraud, oh, it s so good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Phyllis gets taken down.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I do believe she deserves a confrontation.
2
SPEAKER_00
I believe Mildred should confront.
2
SPEAKER_00
What if Phyllis gets kicked out and Michelle gets to be a permanent member of Bunko?
2
SPEAKER_01
Whose side are you both on?
2
SPEAKER_00
Michelle and Mildred, and I guess Bev.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, for sure.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I m just, like, look, as much as I admire the, like, I admire the moxie, I do not support weasel behavior.
2
SPEAKER_00
50 years of being a weasel to your dearest friends, and potentially your only friends.
2
SPEAKER_00
How many friends does, Phyllis has friends to burn?
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t believe it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Not with that attitude.
2
SPEAKER_00
Not with that behavior.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, honestly, it s disturbing and I feel like, what is wrong with Phyllis?
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you want my final update?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
So Michelle, this bothers Michelle.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like it bothers her that she kept playing and kept winning, that it took months before Mildred found out, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
She s like, all of this is a little weird.
2
SPEAKER_01
And when she had gone spotlight mode, she had only done that on Phyllis s scores.
2
SPEAKER_01
She goes back.
2
SPEAKER_01
She starts looking at erasing marks.
2
SPEAKER_01
She starts looking at who s won when.
2
SPEAKER_01
She starts looking at how many things people have rolled.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she found out that every single person in this group except for Mildred was cheating.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
2
SPEAKER_00
All of them.
2
SPEAKER_00
All of them.
2
SPEAKER_00
Great.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love it.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is perfect because now the group never has to break up.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is so cute.
2
SPEAKER_00
Honestly, they re just drunk bitches having the time of their lives.
2
SPEAKER_00
That is so cute.
2
SPEAKER_01
The way that Michelle figured this out is that she was like,
2
SPEAKER_01
everybody seems to be rolling a lot of baby bunkos.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like way more baby bunkos than they should be rolling.
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SPEAKER_01
And she does the data and it s like everybody for years has just been marking extra baby bunkos onto their little tally sheets.
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SPEAKER_01
Like sometimes it doesn t even add up with the points in the round.
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SPEAKER_01
They re just like, mark, mark, mark, more baby bunkos for me.
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SPEAKER_01
I love it.
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SPEAKER_01
Because everyone was cheating at baby bunkos, what happened is they all kind of canceled each other out.
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SPEAKER_01
And so Phyllis was playing, like, a meta game where she was, like, just the smartest cheater because she was the only one going for lowest score.
2
OK.
2
SPEAKER_01
This kicks ass.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is so funny.
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SPEAKER_00
I love it.
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SPEAKER_00
I just now I m wondering, like, what was going through Bev s mind when Michelle was like, I want cover to cheat.
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SPEAKER_00
I wonder if Bev was like, oh, shit, she found out about me.
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SPEAKER_00
That s why she was like,
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, I ll handle it.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s so funny.
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SPEAKER_00
Now I ve established that I am a cheater.
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SPEAKER_00
And so I just would like to say from a cheater s perspective, I bet it felt great.
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SPEAKER_00
I bet it felt amazing.
2
SPEAKER_00
I like that when they were like, either adding or erasing other roles.
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SPEAKER_00
And then they got their little jar of olives.
2
SPEAKER_00
A win s a win.
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SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and I would have felt, I personally would have felt amazing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Even if I, especially if I cheated one because it s sort of like, gotcha, you know?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, there s also there s an angle where like, you know, like you said, Phyllis is playing a meta game.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, like if everyone is cheating, then cheating is part of the game.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so it s sort of like, then the house rules are cheating.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s just like Mildred
3
SPEAKER_01
is like doing a self-own, like, you know, you re not even playing the game right, you know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
The updates, the very final updates I have for you is that this group is still intact and together.
3
SPEAKER_01
They are still bunko-ing to this day.
3
SPEAKER_01
They used Mildred s rules for like two months and then they decided it wasn t as fun and they went back.
3
SPEAKER_01
I told you, cheating rocks.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s so fun.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know what?
3
SPEAKER_01
I love it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I take back how scandalized I was about Phyllis.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is amazing.
3
SPEAKER_01
Lydia and Megan, thank you so much for coming on the show.
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SPEAKER_01
It was a delight to have you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
3
SPEAKER_01
That story is better than I could have ever dreamed.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thank you so much.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m so... I ve had the time of my life.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m so happy.
3
SPEAKER_00
This podcast is produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin and Ozzy Linas Goodman.
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SPEAKER_00
Justin Ellis is Defector s Projects Editor.
3
SPEAKER_00
Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defector s Business Guides.
3
SPEAKER_00
Tom Ley is our Editor-in-Chief.
3
SPEAKER_00
Jay Tolviera is our Associate Producer.
3
SPEAKER_00
Abigail Kiegel is our Intern.
3
SPEAKER_00
Dan McQuaid runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store.
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SPEAKER_00
Tara Jacoby designed our show art.
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SPEAKER_00
Thank you to Jasper Wang, Catherine Hsu, Patrick Redford, Israel Deramola, Ray Rado, Chris Thompson, David Roth, Dave McKenna, and Luis Pais Pumar for your help on this season.
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SPEAKER_00
And thanks to the rest of the Defector staff.
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SPEAKER_00
Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company, and Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia.
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SPEAKER_00
I m Kelsey McKinney, and please remember, you did not hear this from me.