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This is The Art of Charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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The Art of Charm is where ordinary guys become extraordinary men.
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Welcome to The Art of Charm, I m Jordan Harbinger.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
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Looking forward to meeting you here at AOC.
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Today we re talking with Adrienne Dorison.
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We re gonna talk about your beliefs, especially as they relate to money and debt, and about how debt doesn t define who you are and why it shouldn t, getting out of your head and getting your head out of the sand to get rid of debt, how to look at your expenses and create, ugh, gasp, a budget, and what intentional spending is and how to use cash to create an emotional attachment to money, which, believe it or not, is a good thing.
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So enjoy this one with Adrienne Dorison.
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So tell us what you do in one sentence.
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In one sentence, I think I teach entrepreneurs how to really make a bigger impact with their work by helping them achieve their highest goals.
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So that s pretty broad, right?
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So vague, so insanely vague.
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Can we shave that down a couple notches?
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This is me being snarky, like I promised I wouldn t do earlier, like five seconds ago.
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Yeah, totally.
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So I work with online entrepreneurs, people who are building businesses to help them make that happen, make a make a bigger mark in the world with their business.
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And most of the time that has a lot to do with creating better habits to achieve their goals.
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Okay.
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And what we talked about pre-show that I want to focus on is the fact that you ditched a lot of debt and other people can also do it because I think one of the reasons that a lot of people don t start businesses, at least according to what people are stating, and I get this for everything, not just for business, I d love to do this, I d love to come to boot camp, I d love to go on this trip, I d love to work remotely, I d love to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but I have debt.
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And it s not always like I have debt because I m an idiot and I spent 20 grand on my credit card or 100 grand on my credit card.
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A lot of it s I went to college and at least still there s this remnant of that was a respectable investment for a lot of people and they don t view it as a poor expenditure of funds.
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And that s fair, but the debt is still just as crippling.
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It cuts off your options just as much.
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Yeah, I think that s why it s an important topic because it s a reality, especially in, I think, the U.S.
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We have like a total like $11.8 trillion of consumer debt split amongst a number of things, whether that s credit cards, mortgage, student loans.
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But, you know, the average student leaves college with
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between $35,000 and over $50,000 of debt.
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And that was me.
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That s why I think this is relevant, because that is something that holds us back from doing the things that we really want to do, whether it s travel, whether it s leave a job that we hate, or maybe take more time off to raise a kid.
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I ve heard that story, right?
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Buy a home, like all of these things matter.
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having this debt, whether we want to say, quote unquote, it s good debt or bad debt.
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I don t really know what that specifically means because it s all debt, right?
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It s all something that s holding us back from freedom in terms of our finances and the things that we can do.
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And so I think that that s why it s an important conversation to have.
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And I m not Dave Ramsey, right?
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I m not... If you were Dave Ramsey, I d be a lot more excited, right?
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I m just kidding.
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Me too.
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You re like, yeah, we ve been having this conversation on my yacht, Jordan.
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Tell me about it.
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Exactly, but I think that s another reason why it s important for me to share this story because people can relate to me a little bit more because I m not really that special.
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I mean, I m special because I m me.
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Everyone s special, right?
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You re a real snowflake, Adrienne.
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That s right.
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But I m not different than the average human.
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There s nothing that
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You know, if anything, I had the odds against me my entire life.
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And so I think that s an important thing that people can understand that most people have debt.
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And I want to make sure that no debt is the new normal.
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Like why is debt so normalized in our society these days?
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And it really is.
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It s like if you can afford the payment, that means you can afford it.
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No, not really generally not a good plan you mentioned the average student coming out of college is 35 to $45,000 in debt a lot of people who are listening to this who are high performers We just got our Edison research survey back like yesterday after months and months and months of crunching most of our audience
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I think now I got to do off the top of my head.
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I want to see 66% are college educated or above.
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I didn t memorize the graduate student level or graduate level and above and professional degrees, but it s a double digit percentage, which is way above.
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the U.S.
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average.
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So most of the people listening here probably have a lot more debt than that.
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And there s a good handful that have six figures in debt because they went to medical school or law school or graduate school for something.
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They re drowning in it.
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I mean, I remember when I only had $64,000 worth of college debt left.
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I was like, yeah, I m getting there.
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Yeah.
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Like if that s the only then.
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That was when I paid more than half down.
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I was like, I m you know, more than 50 percent of this is paid off.
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And that s
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insane.
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That s an insane amount.
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There are houses that you can buy, yes, of course, in Michigan now, especially, but when I was growing up, if you had a house and it was $64,000.00.
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It was pretty nice, right?
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It was fine, it was fine, it was good.
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House in the suburbs, no big deal.
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And now you ve got that and a lot of people have nothing to show for it.
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Yeah, because they re not even able to maybe get the jobs or they re not in, and you can relate to this as well as I can, like they re not in the field that they got that degree in.
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So, you know, while it did
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give us a degree, a credential, whatever that is, helps us grow.
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I think there is something to be said for having gratitude towards the debt that we have, because it did get us to where we are now, whatever that means.
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But they re not even using or able to get a job in that field.
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And so it s like, you know, in terms of student debt, what is the reality of that?
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And how valuable is it?
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Yeah, that s probably a different show, right?
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However, when we look at whether or not the debt is good or not, it still has the same effect, which is leg irons.
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Absolutely.
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These chains, right, hold us back from doing that.
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And I experienced that firsthand, you know, things that I couldn t do because of the debt that I had, as well as a lot of
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emotions that I was experiencing.
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Stress and stuff, you mean?
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Stress being one.
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I think that s the most surfacy one almost.
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Embarrassment, guilt, shame, resentment, like all of those are very prevalent when we have debt, even if we re not willing to admit that.
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And that s the thing is that
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money talk is so taboo.
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And it doesn t need to be like that only kind of suffocates our society even more when we don t talk about it.
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And we don t help other people to kind of learn from our mistakes or learn from how we grow as humans.
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And so I think that talking about this talking about like, I was embarrassed of my debt, I was I felt guilty, I felt ashamed, I was embarrassed and ashamed of my credit score.
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Like what does that even mean?
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Right?
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Like I felt like a less than
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person, like I felt less than even thinking about coming into a relationship.
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I think that s huge, especially, you know, your listeners like talking about relationships, right?
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That s, that s your thing.
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And I think that when I was going into a relationship, that s often something that people want to know, right, your credit score.
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And I think it is, you know, you should be open with your finances with your partner.
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But I shouldn t have to feel like that credit score defines who I am as a person or anything like that.
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But we do that we do that as a society.
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and there s that added pressure, and I felt that in a relationship, and I felt that in my personal life, and so there s so much emotion tied to money that we never talk about for some reason.
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You know, there s a lot there.
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I don t want to harp on the fact that people owing money is necessarily a bad thing.
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I think it s bad if you can t control it, and I only think it s bad if you can t control it.
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I don t think debt in itself is
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If you can t afford to buy your house in cash, don t be that guy who lives at the YMCA for 3 or 13 years saving for a house in cash.
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Finance it.
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That s how the economy works.
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It doesn t hurt you.
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it s fine if that s something you need to do.
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You re buying in a good market.
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Same thing with cars and stuff like that.
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If you can t control your spending, yeah, okay, then you can take different strategies.
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However, I don t want to just say debt is bad, right?
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The reason that we re focusing on it now in the entrepreneurial business context, the travel context, the quote-unquote live your dream, whatever life context, is because it is inherently limiting.
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That s the main function of debt is it limits the amount of freedom that you have to do what you want.
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Absolutely.
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And I think it s about well, I know it s about your behaviors and really understanding what type of debt you feel comfortable taking on.
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I think that that s very personal.
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There s no like common tolerance, right?
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We can t measure like, how stressed, you know, you might be stressed out at $1,000, I might be stressed out when my student loans hit 200,000, right?
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So it s very different in terms of our level of tolerance and what we are capable of handling.
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But I think that there s a problem in terms of
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the behaviors that we learn or don t learn, or the things that we shouldn t be doing with debt.
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And, you know, I don t think you should take out a car note.
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I think that s, you know, as soon as you drive it off the lot, it s not worth half what you paid for it.
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A mortgage?
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Yeah, if you if you want to own a house, but also making sure that that is the smartest investment for you.
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These are all about having like really personalized financial philosophies, but I don t think that people even
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think about it.
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We are just so normalized to the consumerism and to the marketing that we just try to keep up with the Joneses all the time, which will get us in trouble.
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So I think that, you know, it s not about saying all debt is bad debt.
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I don t
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think that there s good debt or bad debt.
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I think it s really like you said about making those personal decisions and understanding how limited do you want to be like, I don t really want to own a house because I, I like being able to get up and move.
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And right now I m in a position where my fiance owns the house that we live in, and we can t move.
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So it s like that s a very limiting decision even though it s not even related to the financial side, but it sort of is because we can t just leave the house here, right?
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So it is like all of those things are very limiting where if we had owned it, we wouldn t have that problem.
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So I think that it s just about figuring out
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how you relate to money, how much you want to be limited, and making sure you re making the right decisions around that.
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But it s like 80% behavior and 20% head knowledge, right?
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We can know this stuff, but if we re not doing it, then it doesn t matter.
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One thing that you mentioned that I want to get back to you really quick and then we ll circle around again.
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is you mentioned that people, they never talk about money.
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And even, I think a lot of folks might go, there are whole shows about money.
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But they talk about strategies, they talk about ways to maintain things or asset protection.
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Very few people though, at a personal level, are talking about their own money and their own challenges with money.
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They might be talking about asset protection and blah, blah, blah.
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But even spouses a lot of the time, they don t talk about it because
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it s a sensitive subject, it s one of the, we ve all read that stat that it s like the number one thing people argue about, spending, saving money, blah, blah, blah.
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People are more likely, in my experience, and there s probably a study out here somewhere, if anyone has it, feel free to send it, I bet you that people are much more willing to talk about sex than they are money, just judging by the conversations that I have with my friends, and yes, I m a dude who s in his 30s, so maybe that s just the people I m around, but I feel like
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Even looking at my parents, I remember asking my dad how much money he made when I was a kid and he wouldn t tell me.
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Yeah, that s what I was just gonna say.
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We re kind of taught this at a very young age to not talk about money, that it s very taboo.
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Or when you look at your neighbor s car as a child and you ask them, how much that car cost, right?
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Your parents would slap you, right?
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So it s like, we don t talk about money.
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That s something that subconsciously has been ingrained in most of us.
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And when we think back to, I always ask my clients and the people I work with,
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like when we re working through our money stuff, I m like, what s your earliest money memory?
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Right?
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Like, what s the thing that you remember about money?
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And for for the majority of people, it s usually something that is like this very limiting thought, this limiting belief that we have around how we make money, or how money is something that we only argue about, or that it s really hard to make money.
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or whatever it is, it s, it s ingrained in us since childhood, but then we don t talk about it again.
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We don t think about it.
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We don t question those beliefs.
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And we re just taught from a very young age that we just shouldn t ask those questions about money.
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And you re right, like, okay, so I m 29.
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So I know about sex as well.
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You know, we talk about sex with our partners.
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But
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even the money thing doesn t even come up a lot of times for couples until after they re married, which is a very wrong time for the money conversation to happen.
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But they re much more likely to have had sex already.
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So I think that you re right, like, even sex is less taboo than talking about money.
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And we can have conversations that are about
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the more practical or analytical side of money.
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But when we think about our emotions or our feelings or our behaviors around money, like those are really important conversations to have and that we should be having that we re not for some reason.
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All right, back to Adrian Dorsen.
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Producer Jason just shot me a story here about women, especially women, being less likely to talk about money than even men.
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And guys, I mean, we lie about everything when we talk about personal stuff.
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Sex, weight, athletic pursuits, women, money are no exception.
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There s a lot of emotional and psychological baggage that has to do with money, because if you don t have enough, it s embarrassing and shameful, and if you have too much, it s considered greedy, and you never would mention it, because it s like, oh, you re just gonna throw that in my face?
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So there s no winning situation in which you can appropriately, in America, talk about money.
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I don t know how it is in other countries.
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I d be interested to hear from some of the international audience.
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People don t talk about it.
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There s zero benefit to talking about money in public.
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And with your partner, it usually leads to arguments.
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And so I always found that really interesting.
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You and I had talked before the show about debt, especially being just as much psychological as it is behavioral.
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Can you tell us what you mean by that?
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Yeah, it s I mean, debt to me is so much more about the money, right?
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So it s so much more than just spending money, because there s psychological reasons behind why we are in debt, why we spend money the way we do, why we feel a need to fill this void within us with
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consumerism.
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And so it is more psychological, like really coming back to that question about, you know, what s your earliest money memory?
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How did you see money being spent?
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Because that is what s ingrained in your subconscious about money and the way we think about money and the things that we do with money.
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And those are all the behaviors that stem from our psychological attachment to money, whether it s fear based, or
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you know, in other, you know, situations, it might be more freedom based, it just depends on, on how you grew up and what your psychological beliefs are around it.
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And so if you have grown up in a space where we don t talk about money, or all we do is argue about money, or spending makes us feel better, then that is probably the behavior that you re going to continue
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doing.
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And so that turns into much more psychological, which then breeds into our behaviors.
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I mean, I think that our behaviors obviously are a stem from that psychological point.
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And so, you know,
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we have this emotional attachment to money that we have sort of tried to get rid of by using credit cards and things like that.
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Now we can use our phone, right?
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Like how not attached can we possibly be to our bank accounts and to the actual spending
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of it.
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And all of that is psychological.
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We try to avoid avoid avoid because of the way it makes us feel.
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And that s a behavior that only leads to more spending.
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So not talking about how money makes us feel not talking about debt and how it makes us feel or our beliefs around it actually just leads to more
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So it is very psychological and I think that if people could sit down and write down a list of what are the beliefs that I have about money.
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Not censoring yourself, they can be good and bad, but just really thinking about what do you believe about money and how you make it and how you spend it.
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What are your beliefs around it?
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I think that s a very powerful exercise and question to ask yourself.
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So when we ask those questions, to what end?
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Does asking those questions change our beliefs or do we have to do something else in addition to that?
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I think you definitely have to do something else in addition to that.
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But that opens the doors for awareness.
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And I think awareness is the first step to starting a behavior change.
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If we don t know where we are now, then there will be no way to get where we want to be.
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And so if we have a belief around money, or, you know, something within us that we can
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say that we don t really want to believe that anymore, we could ask ourselves, is that true?
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SPEAKER_01
Like, looking for evidence, so like, be on the lookout for evidence that that s not true, if that s not the belief that you really want to have.
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Like, you know, a belief that someone might have, and I know that this is true from other people that I ve worked with, is that debt is normal, right?
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Like that everyone has debt.
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That s a belief that people have.
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That s not a belief that you have to keep.
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You have to look for evidence of why that s not true or why that doesn t have to be true in your life, and then you can start creating that by taking behavioral actions.
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Right, yeah, that s very true.
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A lot of people think, well, everyone has debt, all my friends have debt, and then when you really ask the nitty gritty details, well, what kind of debt is it?
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Well, Jordan Harbinger has debt, yeah, but what is it?
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It s a little bit of student debt that s, the interest rate is so low
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That it doesn t even make sense because I would earn more from a putting the money in a savings account than I would paying off a government loan at this current rate.
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And I have house debt because I didn t pay for the house in cash and I financed it over time.
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And that turns out to be better for me because of the time value of money like these are things I calculated.
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SPEAKER_00
So if somebody with $25,000 in credit card debt or $100,000 in credit card debt.
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is using that to rationalize their behavior, they re in trouble, because their purchases are not necessarily growing and are almost certainly decreasing over time.
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The interest rate is much, much higher, and it s also evidence of the inability to maybe control spending, et cetera, et cetera.
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And I think a lot of people do probably have that belief.
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Have you read studies or have you conducted studies on that same subject?
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Because I think a lot of folks think, oh, well, everybody spends on this and then pays it off over time, when it s not necessarily true.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I haven t done any formalized studies, but it s a good idea because I m so fascinated by the topic.
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But I do work with people all the time within my coaching practice, as well as I teach a financial planning class locally in my area.
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And that s something that everyone s shocked when I tell them, you know, that I don t have any debt anymore.
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And so I obviously have conversations a lot more now about money.
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And I think just saying that people, they re seriously like they don t believe it.
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my fiance doesn t have any debt either.
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We went to go buy him the new iPhone 6s.
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And he wasn t getting on a contract, he was just paying for the phone in cash.
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And they had to take him to three different registers to actually pay for it.
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Because they were like, what do you mean you re paying for the whole thing?
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He s like, I m paying for the whole thing.
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And they re like, well, we can t actually do that here.
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We have to take you to a different area.
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Like it s like on lockdown.
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SPEAKER_00
Wow.
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It s just so not normal for some reason to pay for things in cash, right?
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Like, it s just assumed.
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Same thing when we bought a car.
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We bought the car cash.
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Like, I mean, it wasn t some fancy car.
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We have a Ford Focus.
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But it was important for us to not have a note on that car.
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So we paid in cash.
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And they were like, you re paying how much of it?
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We re like the whole thing.
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And it s just so not normal.
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It s like if you start noticing other people s responses to that statement, you ll notice that most people think debt is normal, or that it has to be normal.
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And it really, it doesn t, it s really a personal decision, like you said.
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And if we rationalize our own decisions on other people s, then that s just really effed up, right?
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Like, yeah,
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I mean, we re valuing ourselves, our self-worth, and our decisions on someone else s psychological problems.
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Like, it doesn t make any sense, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Seems unwise, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
It totally does.
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Whether it s for a good reason or a bad reason, like, we want to, you know, set up those, you know, back to the original question of like, what do you have to do?
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SPEAKER_01
Well, you have to, you know, understand what your beliefs are now.
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And what beliefs you want to have, you know, not my beliefs, not Jordan s beliefs, right?
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Like, what beliefs do you want to have about money?
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Like, for me, I value being financially free.
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And to me, that means I don t have any debt.
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And so that doesn t have to be anyone else s belief.
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But it has to be something that I believe in, right, that I believe that that s
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possible, because that s the other thing.
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If you don t believe something s possible.
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So a lot of people read my story that I ve gotten out of all this debt in a really short amount of time.
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And it s been on, you know, news stories and stuff like that.
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And you get so many haters like this can t be true, right?
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What d she do porn?
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Like, no, not really.
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If you don t believe that it s possible, you re not going to take action to do it.
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And so you actually have to
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believe that you can do that thing, right?
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And that comes with practice of thinking about, are my current beliefs true?
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And do they have to be?
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Is there evidence that they don t have to be true?
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And I think that we should always be on the lookout for those things.
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On to sort of the nitty gritty of it.
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How did you manage to ditch a lot of your debt and how can other people do the same thing?
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Because I think a lot of folks are stuck on it.
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I mean, first of all, they let their debt define them, right?
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The guilt, the shame, the embarrassment, that s pretty common.
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SPEAKER_00
And that s probably the number one reason why people don t even attack this problem.
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They d rather bury their head in the sand because it can be complicated.
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SPEAKER_00
It can be tricky and it s got all the negative emotions attached to it.
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SPEAKER_00
But what strategies do you have?
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SPEAKER_00
Great one, attacking the beliefs first.
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We re big believers in that.
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Where do we go after that?
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Yeah, so you know, believing that you can do it.
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Yes, that s step number one.
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For me, step number two is like making a decision because it s really easy to say, Oh, I want to get out of debt.
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And it s, you know, being interested in something versus being committed to something is very different.
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So for me, you have to be committed to this process.
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If you re wanting to do this quickly, you know, I always tell people like, my story is great, but it s not your story, right?
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Like you get to create your own story, and it won t be the same as mine.
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It could be even better.
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So
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making that decision, like committing to the process of whatever your goal is, whether it s around debt or something else, but making that decision and then
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You have to take your head out of the sand.
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You have to look at your previous bank statements, which is where people run away and they don t want to talk to me after I say this.
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And that s because they re in avoidance mode.
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And I know this so well because I was there.
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I was avoiding what I was spending money on.
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I thought that I had a budget just because
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I wasn t overdrafting every month, right?
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I wasn t in the red.
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So I m good.
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That s not a budget.
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And you don t have to be scared of the word budget.
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You just have to have it s just a plan like making a plan for where are you going to spend your money.
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So really looking at like the past three months of expenses to see where did I spend my money because we do so much unconscious spending that
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we don t even realize how much money we actually have to be putting towards our debt.
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And we won t know until we look.
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So taking your head out of the sand, putting together a budget where you can look and say, okay, these are my expenses.
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These are things that I was like randomly spending money on that I probably don t need to anymore.
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SPEAKER_01
You can you know, pour a drink while you do this.
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I know most people like to avoid
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They avoid looking at the bank statements for a very long time.
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SPEAKER_01
You know, then you can cut your expenses.
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SPEAKER_01
So this is like step number two, right?
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Create the budget.
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What does it look like now?
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And then what do we want it to look like?
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I wanted to pay my debt off as quickly as possible, but that s not the plan for everyone.
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I wanted to get out of my corporate job.
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And so I wanted to be debt free by the time I did that.
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So I was like, Okay, how much money basically, what are my survival expenses, that I can pay those and then pour everything
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else onto the debt.
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And that s really what I did is I looked at my budget, and I had a corporate income at the time, I don t have that anymore, because I own my own business now.
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But I was like, how much money could I pour onto the debt outside of my survival expenses, you know, food, roof over my head, some insurance, things like that.
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I was putting all of the rest of the money onto those debt repayments.
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And then I started a side business, which is now my full-time business.
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So my step number three is increase your income, especially if you have a deficit.
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Like if your income minus your expenses is a deficit, you have an income problem.
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Right, but I want to stop here, because a lot of people are like, well, duh.
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But I think it s not necessarily
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that obvious because a lot of people go, oh, I need to spend less.
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And that s fine up to a point.
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But in Ramit city is sort of maybe not famous, but fond of saying, look, you can be frugal all you want and save 12 cents on lattes or five bucks a day.
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But you can only cut back so far.
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Income, on the other hand,
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is essentially the potential for more income is unlimited, whereas frugality, it plateaus at the point where you re, like I said before, living at the YMCA, drinking water, and like, you know, doing other things to save a dime here and there, to no real end, whereas we re taking that same amount of focus and working on creating a side gig that makes you a couple hundred or a couple thousand extra dollars a month, that can scale.
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Frugality cannot scale.
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Absolutely.
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And people also like when I say the word budget, like they feel so restricted by it.
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I think that s normal.
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Like it s like a diet, right?
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And so that can also while I still think it s important to always have a plan for where you re going to spend your money.
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You don t want to feel like so restricted.
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forever.
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And so if you re able to cut back your expenses a little bit, that s great.
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SPEAKER_00
But you know, like Ramit says, you can only first of all, you can only cut back so much.
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Second of all, do you want to live like that forever, right?
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So knowing that this could be in the short term, like for me, it was six months that I had to like really cut back my
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to survival expenses.
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But by increasing my income, that was limitless, like I could, and that was so eye opening for me in terms of how I looked at money as well, because being in my corporate job, I maybe got a three to 4% raise every year, if I was lucky, right, like that s,
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very limited, versus what we can create on the side, whether it s a side business or a hobby that we can monetize, like those types of things, like, look for ways to make more money doing what you re already doing, what you love to do, it doesn t have to be starting your own business.
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SPEAKER_00
But there s tons of different ways to increase your income, you just have to acknowledge that you have a deficit problem and increasing your income can help get you out of debt.
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make you feel less restricted and open up lots of other doors too.
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Like I never started, you know, the business with the intent to make as much money as I do now, but I just wanted to get out of the corporate job and do something I actually liked.
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So it turned into a lot more than I expected and it allowed me to pay off the debt much more quickly as well.
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SPEAKER_00
So originally I had like a 25-year repayment plan.
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I was paying the minimum, which I think most people do.
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We try to get our payments down as far as we can.
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I think Obama wants to make them even longer if possible.
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And I m like, no, we re going in the wrong direction, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Like, that doesn t mean you re paying less.
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It just means you re paying for a lot longer, and you re going to be paying more interest.
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That s not the goal.
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The goal is to get people out of debt.
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SPEAKER_00
And so I went from 25 year repayment
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to a one year repayment just by like doing my budget and pouring all my corporate income onto that debt.
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And then from starting the side business, I went from one year down to six months.
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So just by pouring everything that I was making in the business onto that debt as well, but I had to stay focused.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, that s the key I had made that decision like this was my goal.
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SPEAKER_00
Otherwise, I could have got shiny objects and driven spent money on lots of other things for sure.
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SPEAKER_01
Right.
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SPEAKER_01
All right, back to Adrienne Dorsen.
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SPEAKER_01
Let s talk about that, too.
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SPEAKER_01
You d mentioned intentional spending, and I don t think anybody buys anything by accident.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, it happens, right?
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SPEAKER_01
But very rarely do we buy things by accident.
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SPEAKER_01
So what do you mean by intentional spending?
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SPEAKER_00
Mm-hmm.
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SPEAKER_00
It s like accidental pregnancies, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
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SPEAKER_01
Slightly.
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SPEAKER_00
Intentional spending.
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When I talk about that, we spend money on things that we don t really value.
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And so it s more about the process of
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really thinking about what you re buying.
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And so when you look at that budget, so for me, for example, I had like three gym memberships just because I could.
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I m a gym junkie.
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SPEAKER_00
And so I was working out all the time.
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Did I need three gym memberships?
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SPEAKER_00
No, but I had the money so I could do it right.
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SPEAKER_00
Same thing like I would spend
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probably a couple hundred dollars a month, if not more, on just like random things like dog toys.
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I like my dog a lot.
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Dog toys or a shirt here or there.
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SPEAKER_00
You go to Target.
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If any woman is ever listening to this, if you ve ever been to Target, you buy random shit that you don t even know why you bought it, but you wanted it at the time.
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But like when we can intentionally spend money,
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it feels less restrictive to me because I m really valuing the thing that I buy versus just buying to fill a void in my in my self-worth.
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Most of the time we re just on default.
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We just buy it.
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SPEAKER_00
And so one way to be more intentional with spending
3
SPEAKER_00
is to use cash.
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SPEAKER_00
And people out there are probably like, Oh, it s so annoying to, you know, take out cash.
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SPEAKER_00
And yeah, sometimes it is right.
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SPEAKER_00
I never said that achieving your goals was convenient, right?
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SPEAKER_00
So there might be some inconveniences with getting cash out.
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SPEAKER_00
But there s a much more emotional attachment to your money, where you can really
3
SPEAKER_00
see that tangible piece of paper with the value attached to it, when you spend it, you actually have less of it in your wallet.
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SPEAKER_00
And so your brain can see that you can process that.
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SPEAKER_00
And on the other end, when we have credit cards, it seems so much easier, because it s not real money, right?
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SPEAKER_00
We re just spending plastic.
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SPEAKER_00
And oftentimes, we don t even see that money coming out until the end of the month.
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SPEAKER_00
So
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SPEAKER_00
So there s tons of studies on this, but one that s been cited a ton talks about how we actually spend about 12 to 18% more when we use credit cards than if we would have used cash for that same type of purchase.
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SPEAKER_00
So it s just that emotional attachment that we have to handing over the cash.
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SPEAKER_00
And when I started using cash, I started thinking twice about the things I was buying.
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SPEAKER_00
So it was being much more intentional.
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SPEAKER_00
I don t want people to create a budget to make their life miserable.
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SPEAKER_00
If you truly want something, then you should allocate the money to buy it, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Just like Ramit says, if you want a latte, get a freaking latte.
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SPEAKER_00
But if you re just buying it to buy it because it s sort of second nature or you ve just been doing it for so long but you don t really value that thing, then stop.
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SPEAKER_00
Think about it and really intentionally decide.
3
SPEAKER_01
So do you have a decision making process that you go through before you purchase things or what?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so for me, and this will be different for everyone, I just use it as like a trade off mechanism, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So like, when I was paying off the debt, you know, if I was, you know, going to purchase something, maybe it s a new iPhone.
3
SPEAKER_00
Sure, I wanted the new iPhone right back in the day, when I was getting out of the debt.
3
SPEAKER_00
So what would that
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SPEAKER_00
trade off be in terms of I was thinking in terms of months of how much longer it would take me to pay off the debt.
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SPEAKER_00
You can do this with anything.
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SPEAKER_00
I had a friend tell me about a couple she knew who was going on this trip.
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in Europe, and they were saving tons of money so that they could travel further.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so every time they would make purchases, they would do the trade off in terms of how many miles of gas was that costing them if they made that purchase versus how they could have gone traveled to a new city in Europe, right.
3
SPEAKER_00
So keeping your eye on
3
SPEAKER_00
the prize the goal that you have like what is the financial goal that you have in your mind whether it s paying off debt or a trip that you want and what s the trade-off between that purchase and what you want to do in the long term you can just make that decision right there if it s worth it to you then yes go and get that latte but if you d rather prolong that
3
SPEAKER_00
weight, then you can make that decision based on the trade-off that you re, you know, you have mentally created.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that s kind of a practice that I use, like, well, what s this costing me in the long, it s like, you know, cost-benefit analysis there, little economics that you can do mentally.
3
SPEAKER_01
The genius there is you can literally just stave off impulse buys by thinking about something for even just a minute.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_01
I do that with food items, right?
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SPEAKER_01
It s like, oh, man, those fries smell good.
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SPEAKER_01
I ll have some of the, nah, you know, do I want those?
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SPEAKER_00
or why don t I just eat this vegetable appetizer thing or the salad and then if I want those I ll order them and I never order them after that.
4
SPEAKER_00
It never happens.
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SPEAKER_00
Just like if I walk into a place, restaurants do this amazing, producer Jason pointed this out earlier, we went to Morton s to grab a big steak dinner while we were at a conference and the waiter comes along and goes, or the server, sorry I always do that, comes along and says,
4
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if you d like one of our amazing souffles, you need to put the order in now, because it takes 20 minutes to bake to perfection and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and he describes it in this vivid detail, and I m like, wow, that sounds so good, and Jason s like, yo, slow your roll.
4
SPEAKER_00
They want you to order dessert before you order the food, because you re starving right now.
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SPEAKER_00
It sounds amazing.
4
SPEAKER_00
Wait till you eat this big-ass steak.
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SPEAKER_00
You re not gonna want any bite of that dessert, and he was right.
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SPEAKER_00
I thought, okay.
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SPEAKER_00
Worst case scenario, we ll sit here and check email for 20 minutes while we wait for this thing to bake if it really takes that long after the meal.
4
SPEAKER_00
Sure enough, we were so full we barely finished our food and we just ended up leaving.
4
SPEAKER_00
There s no way we would ve eaten dessert.
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SPEAKER_00
But of course, if you order it beforehand, there it comes.
4
SPEAKER_00
You bought it and you re eating it, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like, you can do that with anything, right.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I love that relationship to food, because it s such an, you know, easy thing for people to relate to.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you can do the same thing with your money and how you think about it.
4
SPEAKER_01
But we re so used to that instant gratification culture that we ve created that people are like, I just want this now, I don t care if I can afford it.
4
SPEAKER_01
But you can really afford anything, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
You just can t afford everything.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s Paula pants, someone that I ve connected with, she that s like her whole motto, like, because it s true, you can
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SPEAKER_01
afford anything.
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SPEAKER_01
You just have to decide what s most important for you.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s about priorities.
4
SPEAKER_00
What are some things that affected your money mindset?
4
SPEAKER_00
Let s dig into what the mindsets that people have and maybe dismantle them a little bit because it becomes more real if people can think, well, you know, I grew up this way and this is probably what s affecting my money mindset.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because I think a lot of folks, even when they have problems with this, they don t see the roots of the problem.
4
SPEAKER_00
They just try to put a system in place and then habits creep up again.
4
SPEAKER_01
Mm hmm.
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SPEAKER_01
So I ll just dig into some of mine, because obviously, those are the ones I m most attached to.
4
SPEAKER_01
For me, personally, my dad was an entrepreneur.
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SPEAKER_01
And so money was always very inconsistent.
4
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So that s a belief that I had, right, that money was inconsistent.
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And so what I was doing, was actually I had a ton of money in my savings account.
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But I didn t want to pay down that debt, because I didn t know when money was going to come around again.
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even though it didn t really make logical sense because at the time I had a corporate job, so I was gonna get a paycheck next month.
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But I was essentially hoarding money in my account because of the inconsistent nature that I believed money was.
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I thought that it was always gonna be inconsistent.
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And with that belief, and sorry, dad, I love you, but this is where I got lots of my financial mindset issues was,
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Also, he worked on commission.
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So it was like, we had a lot, and then we would spend it right away.
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And then we would go through periods where we didn t have anything.
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And it was like a struggle.
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And so it was always this roller coaster, you know, feast or famine type of thing.
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And so I was like, hoarding my my nuts away like a squirrel, even though I had this debt to pay off.
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And so I think that a lot of people can relate to that because when I work with people in the class that I teach locally, we dig into their finances and oftentimes they have this big pile of debt, but they also have this big pile of cash in their savings account, and they re not paying off the debt, they re just doing the minimum payment still because that
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money in their account is like a security blanket for whatever, you know, whatever story they told themselves when they were growing up.
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That s one that I think a lot of people can relate to that feast or famine, or we spend it as soon as we have it.
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And then we have nothing.
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That s one.
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For women, I think that a lot of women, you know, see money as power and so that I love that article that you spoke about because I think that s why women don t talk about money as much because we re not really comfortable yet in humanity, you know, with women being in position of power.
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And so that is associated with money or talking about money or making more money.
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And so we can tend to block ourselves from from doing those things because of the stigma we associate with it.
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Same thing.
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My dad was the breadwinner, right?
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He was the one who made all the money.
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And so maybe growing up, I m thinking, well,
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men are the ones who are able to make more money.
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And I came from a single home, a single parent home, where my biological mother always blamed my dad for not giving us money, right?
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So there was all this negativity around money and how difficult it was to make, how men are the ones that make money.
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And so we can tend to be, you know,
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as women, poor negotiators.
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Because of that, we self-sabotage in different situations because of the things that we believe from our own childhood around money.
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And this can go all the way into our own, you know, financial chaos and spending behaviors.
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Like, I was avoiding money for so long because I didn t want to face the facts and I just always assumed I wasn t good with money, right?
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Well, I wasn t good with money because I wasn t looking at it.
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I wasn t trying.
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And so I just kept assuming that I m not good with money, that s why I don t have great credit, that s why I have all this debt, I m not good with money.
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When really, no one ever taught me anything about money, which is not anyone else s fault, it s our own responsibility to take responsibility for that.
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But I didn t do it, I just always thought, well, the men are gonna take care of the money and I m not good with money, so I m just not gonna even look at it.
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I think a lot of women actually probably think like that.
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I know my dad kind of, I wouldn t say did that to my mom, but definitely was like, I ll control what we do.
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And it wasn t even like a weird controlling thing.
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It wasn t like my mom didn t have money.
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It was just like, she s never thought about it.
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And he probably thought he was helping, like he ll just do the money, right?
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And he was a great investor.
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I mean, he was an engineer at Ford, not exactly balling out of control.
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And he saved and invested and did really well.
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So it just made sense to sort of let the roll go that way.
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But after a while, I remember my mom being like, I have no idea how much we have saved for our retirement.
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I could only assume it s enough.
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And I was like, how do you not know that?
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Does that not worry you at all?
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Yeah, and that s another one of those things that like, we just don t talk about it and couples that don t talk about it, because we either think the other person s got it, right?
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Like you got it, but that also disempowers us, right?
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Even, you know, if your mom wasn t like, Oh, I want to handle the money, but it does disempower us because we don t really understand what s happening, which means we can t really have the full security as women that we want, like women see finances,
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as security, whereas men look at it more as like a social power sort of thing, like they feel accomplished or proud of themselves if they re earning and and being the breadwinners.
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And there s so much psychologically and emotionally that goes into this, especially in relationships, that we have to talk about it, we have to understand and really do money together so that we re on the same page.
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And that s why you know, that s why those statistics are out there.
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Like,
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50% of divorces are because of financial, you know, arguments and things like that is because people don t talk about it.
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And if you re in the dark, it s much scarier, you have so much more uncomfortable tension around what s happening.
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And as women, we want to feel security around money.
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That s just like something within us.
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I don t know what it is.
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Gotcha, so use cash if you have a spending issue because you spend less than you do in using cards You prove that with the stat create a budget from your past three months of expenses It ll be scary, but it gets your head out of the sand makes you stop avoiding your finances Etc and thinking about the fact that the debt doesn t define who you are nor does having lots of money to find who you are That ll help you get rid of the shame the guilt the embarrassment and help you start taking control back.
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Am I missing anything?
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Those are the main pieces.
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I would say that people just have to start taking ownership and personal responsibility for this stuff.
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And if we look at lottery winners, you can win a lot of money, but like I said, this is 80% behavior.
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So thinking about your behaviors and starting to actively know how you wanna change it so that you can create those new behaviors to have better financial practices.
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And you ve got something to give away to our listeners as well before I forget, right?
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Yep.
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So I have done a webinar, which is really like step by step, how I paid off that $45,000 in six months, it goes, it s a, you know, very practical webinar, where you can understand how I did it, as well as I m going to include my actual budget worksheet with my real numbers in it.
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So that s like, you know, pulling the veil back real numbers in there.
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And you can like plug and play and put your numbers in there.
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So you can just go to, I have it at Adrian dorsen.com forward slash AOC.
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Thank you so much, Adrienne, great work.
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Good stuff.
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Thank you, Jordan.
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boot camp, or whatever it is, dot, dot, dot, debt.
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And I used to think that was just an excuse, you know, that people had, and sometimes it is, but I ve asked people specific questions while they re telling me their deepest, darkest secrets, and some people have just crushing amounts of debt, even in their 20s, we re talking about six figures of debt, which is unreal, you know, it s like they get handed a credit card, or they go to college and they get a credit card, or they buy some stuff and they can t
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pay for it and it s just unbelievable.
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And so it can really screw with you and it can really limit the freedom that you have with your family or to live life for that matter and just do the job that you want to do because you re a slave to the money when you owe it to other people.
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So hopefully this show will help people out.
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I love the idea that you can change your beliefs.
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That s what this show is founded on.
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I hate budgets, but I can definitely see why making one for the past three months and showing how you just didn t work it, right, could be very useful for pulling your head out of the sand and your finances out of the toilet.
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So I hope people dug this one as well.
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show feedback and guest suggestions.
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This show s a fanarchy, it s run by you.
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We rely on you to help keep our finger on the pulse.
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So if you know someone who s a good fit for the show, let us know, guests at theartofcharm.com.
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If you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Adrian on Twitter, that ll be linked in the show notes as well as the other resources mentioned on the show.
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and you can tap the album art in most mobile podcast players to see the show notes right on your phone.
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I also post a lot of stuff on Twitter that never makes it to the show, articles, insights, at The Art of Charm on Twitter.
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Bootcamp details, remember, we re sold out a few months in advance, so if you re thinking about it, get info first, plan ahead, bootcamp.theartofcharm.com, notice two dots in there.
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Subscribe on iTunes, write us a nice review, we ll love you forever, and also it helps us outrank some of the schmucky schmucks out there that just use their show for marketing,
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We have to fight against them somehow to get our name out there, and that comes with your help.
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So review us on iTunes, and we will really appreciate it.
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Special thanks to the Jasons for their help in production of the Art of Charm podcast.
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Go ahead, tell your friends.
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Now have a great week, and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the art of charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and everything for the extraordinary man at the art of charm podcast.com.