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In this episode of the Advanced Selling Podcast, I desperately look for a lost listener who I left in the ocean in Aruba, Bill does his best Don LaFontaine impersonation, twice if you listen closely, and we hear from a guru from PandaDoc who talks about how to write and, new word alert, templatize your proposals.
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So welcome back to the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest running sales training podcast in history.
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I m Bill Kasky.
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And I m Brian Neal.
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We come at you every Monday morning.
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You sound like a 70s DJ.
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I know, I know.
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That s what I was trying to do.
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Coming at you.
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Stacks of wax.
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6.45, 15 minutes before the hour is 7, 45 after 6.
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8.07, let s go to traffic.
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Brian Neal.
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helicopter.
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Never, there never was a helicopter.
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Never, just a helicopter back noise.
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So we are really glad you re with us and we have been doing this for upwards of 13 years, over 700 and some odd episodes, some odder than others.
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We ve also got a LinkedIn group you can
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and go to advancedsellingpodcast.com slash LinkedIn to get on that.
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We ve got over 10,000 people, and we are becoming a little more active there.
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I think we go through phases where we re not as active as we should be, but we re going to be ratcheting that up again.
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So if you re not a member of that group, make sure you go.
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Some really good stuff on there.
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Today s podcast brought to you by PandaDoc.
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If you need help creating beautiful sales proposals, and by the way, we re going to talk about winning sales proposals in this episode, you can go to PandaDoc.com forward slash ASP for a free copy of your booklet, Elements of a Winning Sales Proposal.
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Also,
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Good friends at Outreach, if you want to make your team a revenue driving machine, go to outreach.io slash ASP to learn more about them.
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Me likey.
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So yes, I was in Aruba getting married and having my honeymoon and on spring break at the same time.
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It was fantastic.
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It was just wonderful.
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So we re there for about eight or nine days-ish, eight nights, nine days.
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You know, you re there, you meet people.
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So I was in the ocean just floating around.
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And people just talk about, where are you from, all that jazz.
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And it gets to what you do.
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And I m like, I do sales coaching, and I m an NFL ref.
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And this guy goes, looks at me kind of funny, and he goes, do you do any podcasting?
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And I said, I actually do.
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I ve got a podcast called The Advanced Selling Podcast.
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He goes.
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I listened to that on the way down here.
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He s like, my boss sent me episode 511.
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I remember what episode, 511.
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Are you serious?
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And he wanted us all to listen to it, all the leadership team, and he wants to have you guys come in.
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So the problem is, and then I probably, like, how did, you know, you asked me, like, how did he know you?
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Well, I talk on my podcast voice on vacation.
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I m like, hey, excuse me, could I have two margaritas, please?
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Extra salt on the room?
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No.
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How did he...
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We just had a conversation about that.
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And when he said now, if he picked up on the voice, or if I was talking in my, because I do talk in my podcast voice when I m floating in the ocean.
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I m sure.
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Oh, it s in the ocean.
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It s the ocean down there.
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Yeah, it s great.
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I know it s the ocean, but I didn t know where you were.
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It s an island.
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Aruba is an island.
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Yeah.
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But the problem is I was on vacation mode.
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You know, I m in the ocean.
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So I didn t have anything with me.
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I just trusted the guy would call us back, and I haven t heard back from him.
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So whoever was floating in the ocean with me in Aruba the first week of April, shoot me an email.
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Listener at advancedsellingpodcast.com, just putting subject lines, met you in the ocean in Aruba.
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Now we re going to get 19 of those things.
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Yeah, maybe.
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Yeah, that s great.
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That s really good.
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It was awesome, though.
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Do you ever wish you could have done more this month but just didn t have the time, tools, or processes?
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I know every salesperson I work with says yes to that question.
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Outreach.io, the leading sales engagement platform, supports sales reps and their managers by making it simple to humanize and personalize communication at scale, automating the soul-sucking manual work and dramatically increasing the productivity and efficiency
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of all revenue generating teams.
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You can check them out at outreach.io forward slash ASP to chat with them and receive a free copy of their new book.
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That s outreach.io forward slash ASP and get a copy of their free new book.
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Do you need help creating beautiful sales proposals and quotations?
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Well, with PandaDoc, you can look like a billion-dollar business without spending like one.
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You can create, send, track, and e-sign stunning, and I do mean stunning, on-brand and interactive sales docs in mere minutes.
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You can try it free for 14 days at PandaDoc.com forward slash ASP.
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And while you re there, there s an outstanding copy.
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It s a little e-booklet called Elements of a Winning Sales Proposal.
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You can go there to download that, pandadoc.com forward slash ASP.
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It s really good stuff.
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And speaking of Pandadoc, Bethany Fagan is our guest today.
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We re speaking on the phone today with Bethany Fagan.
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She is the content marketing manager at one of our newest advertisers and sponsors, Pandadoc.
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And Bethany, welcome to the show.
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Thanks guys for having me.
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Looking forward to today s chat.
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Yeah, well we re anxious to have you because this whole idea of writing winning proposals is really important to our listeners and to whether you re a CEO, VP of sales, I don t care what role you play, there are proposals going out and there are
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right and wrong ways to do it.
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There s mechanically right and sound ways, and there s also awful ways, and we ve seen our share of both.
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But before we get into elements of a winning proposal, why don t you give us 30 seconds on who you are, how you got to where you are, and maybe a little bit about what you do now.
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Yeah, sure.
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So I ve been with Panadoc about three years.
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Prior to my career at Panadoc, I ve actually been in a sales role.
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My first job out of college was selling Xerox copy machines, which was a great segue into where I am now.
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So I spent the last 10 years of my career doing sales, marketing, PR.
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And again, at PandaDoc, my role is all-encompassing content, so production, also enabling our sales team, and getting the word out about who we are and what we do.
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So when you talk about proposals, I know that that s your business.
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And we don t spend a lot of time on proposals in talking about them.
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So this is really a perfect segue into, what do you find are the two or three mistakes that sales professionals make?
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Maybe you made them.
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Maybe your people make them.
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Maybe you see it in the market, because I know you talk to a lot of customers and prospects.
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What are a couple of mistakes people make when they get ready to sit down and write proposals?
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I think the biggest one I think is that we it takes up so much time, right?
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So it s it s where we re not organized You know, there s maybe a couple of different templates that somebody is used Another thing too.
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I see is a lot of sales reps.
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They like their own way of doing things But it also doesn t maybe not necessarily represent the brand in the best light They re in a hurry.
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You know, they just want to get something out the door.
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So I think
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Not being prepared and just not keeping yourself organized and having a strong template that you can put together within a couple of minutes to put your best foot forward, I think, is probably the biggest one that I see.
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Yeah.
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I think a lot of times we spend so much energy in the sales process, then we get to proposal stage.
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We re kind of worn out.
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We re like, OK, let s just get this thing out.
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And then we go to the, I can t tell you how many times I ve heard people say exactly what you said.
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Let s just get a template.
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Let s just go do the template.
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And then it feels like, well, it s just a checklist.
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It feels like it s not special when it s just a template.
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Yeah, exactly.
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A lot of people just slap together a boring quote, if you will, that kind of looks like an invoice.
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It doesn t really have a logo.
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Or they have a whole lengthy legal contract, and it s a bunch of legal jargon, and it s just, here, sign on the dotted line.
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So yeah, I think just not being organized and prepared, but you could really do it right.
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So Bethany, our listeners are predominantly salespeople.
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And then there s a section of sales leadership, so sales managers, VPs of sales, and then some owners, too.
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So if you were trying to state the case for why a salesperson needs to
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follow up either a templated program or put more energy into it.
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What s in it for them?
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Because I know all my clients, Bill s probably going to say this too, they resist this.
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They go, well, it doesn t matter at that point.
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You know, I m a relationship guy.
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They re buying because of me, all the jazz.
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But there s value in what you said.
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And I d love to hear you say it instead of me say it.
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Because when Bill and I say it, it kind of sounds like two dads talking to you.
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And you know, our listeners, they don t want to hear from two dads.
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They want to hear from a smart person like you.
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So what would you tell them?
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What s the reason?
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What s in it for them?
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So I think it s a couple of things.
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And I think it s, it s slightly different for a sales rep versus a sales manager.
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So I think a sales rep, it s again, the biggest, the biggest benefit is just time savings.
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Um, you know, they, uh, a rep wants to crank out as many calls and have as many meetings with prospects as they potentially can.
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And the last thing they want to do is spend more time on administrative work, like generating a proposal.
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Sales managers, same kind of deal.
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They want to save time so that they can better coach their reps, better train their reps, better enable their reps.
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So by having a clear proposal process that can be easily
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executed within a short period of time is beneficial to both the rep and the manager.
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It just allows them to, frankly, spend more time selling, which is ultimately what they both want to achieve.
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I ve got a question here for both of you, Brian.
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Oh, good.
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I get to play, too.
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You get to play, I guess.
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OK.
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Fire away.
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Ready.
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So here it is.
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Is it like a buzzer thing, like a contest?
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No?
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No.
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No buzzers here.
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I just want you both to weigh in on this.
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All right.
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Fair?
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Fair.
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Ready.
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Qualitative answer here.
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OK.
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Let s do it.
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All right, in a world where the closing percentage of B2B sales hovers in the 15% range, and that s a universal number.
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If it s a current client where you ve sold to for 20 years, obviously it s going to be higher than that.
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But just generally over a macro number, it s 15%.
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So we are spending a lot of time 85% of our time calling on people who are never going to buy Why is there such an emphasis on we got to get this done?
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We got to get it done quick man time is of the essence actually time is not of the essence time is not the problem the problem is that
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By the time we get to proposal stage, we re rushing something through because we don t want to take the time when maybe if we spent a little bit more time, that number would be 25% versus 12%.
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So can proper proposal writing increase our odds and closing rates?
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I think it can.
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What do you guys think?
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Bethany?
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That s a little trick as a trainer trick.
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When I don t know my answer, I give it to you.
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See that?
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See what I did there?
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Or he ll start the answer and then he ll yield to you.
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Well, you know what?
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No, go ahead, Bethany.
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Go ahead with what Bethany says.
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No, I think it s a good point, Bill.
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We re actually working to update the e-book that I wrote that s on the landing page, which I ll share with you guys later.
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But I think it s an important thing to know, right?
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The proposal is just one component, but as long as you re creating the right building blocks leading up to that proposal point, then yes, you should be able to get it right and get that proposal to close right away.
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I think I had wrote about knowing your customer s motivations and making sure you really understand the pain and how your solution or your tool could benefit that prospect or customer before you get to the proposal is crucial because you can add those elements.
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to the proposal to just hammer home the fact that you re the right tool or solution for that particular customer or prospect.
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Yeah, very good.
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It s a very valid point.
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Yeah, it s very good.
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I don t know if I want to go.
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I don t know.
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Yeah.
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OK, here s my thing.
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Your answer will pale.
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We ll see.
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Well, that s obvious.
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So a couple of things.
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So one, I look at why do we do that?
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Why do we accelerate at the end?
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We accelerate at the end for fear of loss.
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There s an attachment issue at the end.
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So the first thing I think about
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Why does this occur?
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Because I m like, oh my god, at the end, I ve got to get this one in the boat.
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It s like hooking a fish.
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My family likes to fish, especially when you re big fishing, like tarpon, barracuda stuff.
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You get it close.
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You re like that fish in football.
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I m telling you, exactly.
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You want to get in the boat.
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So that s one problem.
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So we have to maintain healthy detachment all the way through.
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Second, to me, proposals are currency.
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You trade them for things.
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So it should be really hard.
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to get a proposal out of you.
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The way you earn a proposal as a prospect is you do things like set clear future dates and move the process through.
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You reveal your issues.
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Exactly.
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You give me access, and we have a good collaborative process all the way through.
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If I get Heisman, we ll stay in the football realm.
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If I get the Heisman from the customer at all, or it feels like a beauty pageant where I ve got eight people coming and things like that, I may opt to not give you a proposal.
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And I would challenge our listeners, and I d be interested to hear Bethany s take on that, too.
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Is there a point in time when you say, hey, appreciate you having us in for the process.
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We re going to bow out, polite pass at this one, and take ourselves out for whatever reason, right?
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It s going to be a beauty pageant or something like that.
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So that s my response.
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Yeah, it s good.
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It s good.
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So Bethany, give us a little bit of a couple of things that PandaDoc does.
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You ve got the service that you offer, and tell us a couple of things that it does that really distinguish a person who uses the tool from someone who just sends over a PDF document and tries to get people to sign it.
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What are a couple features and benefits of the tool?
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Yeah, so one you just mentioned there, Bill, is taking kind of a PDF and making it more of a webpage.
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So Pandadoc really allows you to kind of make your boring static document into an interactive one.
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So you can embed images, videos, you know, make it very colorful and on brand.
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Another big key point is what I had mentioned earlier is the templatizing.
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The biggest benefit of PanaDoc is that you can have one template and create eight to 20 different documents from that one template.
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It s easy to start with.
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Like Brian had just said, maybe you ve accelerated so quickly through the sales process and you re just ready to get them to sign on the dotted line.
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So you could have one template that just has maybe a pricing table and a couple of customer testimonials and a call to action being an e-signature.
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So that s one that s ready to go.
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But if you have multiple stakeholders that are involved in the sales process and they might need to share your proposal with a few other people, then maybe you ll have a longer version that has
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a couple of product videos or a couple of case studies or some logo soup, if you will, which is what I call, you know, a bunch of different client logos in one spot.
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So the other other great thing, too, is that we do have our own legally binding e-signature technology built in.
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And then the biggest one, I think, is my favorite, which is the ability to see when your recipient has opened.
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Yeah, I love that.
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and completed the document.
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Yeah, it s really cool.
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You can even see how long they spent on each page, which also might help enable the sales process too.
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If you know that they re getting stuck on the pricing or a particular section of your proposal, it s a good excuse for you to give them a ring and say, hey, Bob, I see you re stuck on page three.
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Is there something I can help you with to get the deal done?
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Yeah, that s good, because in a world where we re always thinking multimedia, we re thinking video, we re thinking articles, we re podcasting, we re thinking audio, and then you get a proposal, and after all the process, you just get this flat PDF proposal that, again, pales in comparison to what you re talking about, which is something that is alive.
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You know, this multimedia proposal, it s a living document and media because there s people on it.
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There s maybe, I would assume, you can shoot your own video, say, hey, thanks for this.
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Here s a proposal.
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Please read below.
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I mean, I assume there s plenty of space for that.
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But that s really awesome.
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This allows you to cut to differentiate through the customer experience before they re a customer.
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Exactly.
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The experience of the sales of access is better.
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Yeah, Brian, you mentioned that earlier about, you know, you ve worked so hard through this entire proposal process and to build a relationship.
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And, you know, I would think that you would want your proposal to reflect all of your hard work.
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So I think Panadoc really, of course, I m a little biased, but I think Panadoc really allows you to, you know, present your company and your brand in the best light.
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And you did one of my favorite things, Bethany.
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You named something by making up a word.
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I think.
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She made up the word templatizing.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, is that a word?
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I m not sure it is, but it is now.
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I m not sure it is either, but it is now.
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It is now.
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It s my Panadoc dictionary, it is.
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It is.
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And on the Advanced Selling Podcast, it is.
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So when people say, what do you do?
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We templatize your process.
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That s good.
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I like it, Bethany.
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So Bethany, give us the address of the winning sales proposal e-book that you have for our listeners.
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Yeah, so you can head to pandadoc.com slash ASP.
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We have a special dedicated landing page for your listeners to learn more about who we are, what we do.
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And yeah, our Seven Elements of Winning Proposals ebook is also on that page.
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So feel free to download it and check it out.
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Perfect.
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Bethany, thanks for your time today.
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Awesome talking to you.
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Talk to you later.
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Thanks, Bill and Brian.
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Thanks for your time.
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Bye.
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SPEAKER_00
Bye.
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SPEAKER_02
Thank you.
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Bye.
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So Brian, what d you think?
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I love the idea of templatizing proposals for what Bethany was talking about.
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Our clients gripe to us all the time about administrative things.
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SPEAKER_00
I ve got a client, and they all the time are telling me, we need to get someone in here to fix it.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s so hard.
1
SPEAKER_00
You should see how hard it is to get a proposal out.
1
SPEAKER_00
It takes me an hour and a half to templatize that.
1
SPEAKER_00
Then they become brand standard, too, which I think is super important these days and experiential.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you can have three or four to choose from.
1
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t have to always be the same one.
1
SPEAKER_01
But I think that s, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because I do hear that a lot.
1
SPEAKER_01
It should be the easiest thing, because I ve gone through all the process, and now it s just a matter of formalizing and sending it back out.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think, to me, it s something you should look forward to.
1
SPEAKER_00
I feel like our clients dread it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I feel like our listeners dread it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, oh, I ve got to go write a proposal.
1
SPEAKER_00
They love all the action up to it.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s almost like they have to go.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s almost like backwards like that.
1
SPEAKER_00
They play the game, and this is like practice.
1
SPEAKER_00
You should look forward.
2
SPEAKER_00
forward to writing a proposal.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that s the fun part.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re close to a deal.
2
SPEAKER_00
Good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, if you want to download that booklet, you can go to pandadoc.com forward slash ASP, and you can pick it up there.
2
SPEAKER_00
And we will see you next episode of the Advanced Selling Podcast.
2
SPEAKER_00
Bye.