0
SPEAKER_01
Just having a journal of that stream of consciousness of your greatest insights and those low moments allow you to put those thoughts in that silly box.
0
SPEAKER_01
This imposter thought is just as silly as how I thought it d be a millionaire creating a sticker to block your webcam.
0
SPEAKER_02
Welcome to the Art of Charm.
0
SPEAKER_02
I m your host, Jordan Harbinger, and today, this episode is pretty special, because it is the 10-year anniversary of the podcast.
0
SPEAKER_02
I ll be probably talking about that all year, but definitely this month, and most certainly with this Toolbox episode.
0
SPEAKER_02
We got the whole gang together, the AOC team, the original AOC team, Johnny, AJ, and myself.
0
SPEAKER_02
We re talking about a very apropos topic, speaking of a 10-year anniversary, which is imposter syndrome.
0
SPEAKER_02
This is something that a lot of high performers suffer from.
0
SPEAKER_02
You ve heard about it from Navy SEALs, CEOs, brilliant scientists and researchers, and I would be remiss, I would be lying to you, actually, if I said that we didn t also suffer from the same thing.
0
SPEAKER_02
So I can think of nothing more appropriate after doing this for 10 solid years to cover the topic of imposter syndrome, which is something that still creeps in even after a decade.
0
SPEAKER_02
By the way, if you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes in the rest of the AOC toolbox, where we discuss things like reading body language, charismatic nonverbal communication, the science of attraction, negotiation techniques, networking, influence, mentorship, persuasion, and everything else that we teach here at the Art of Charm.
0
SPEAKER_02
If you re in the United States, you can text the word charmed
0
SPEAKER_02
to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
0
SPEAKER_02
Everywhere else, just hit up theartofcharm.com and at theartofcharm.com slash podcast, you can find the full show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show.
0
SPEAKER_02
Alright, here s the AOC team with a little bit of imposter syndrome.
0
SPEAKER_02
We got the remedy.
0
SPEAKER_02
One topic that s come up a lot on shows with everybody from Navy SEALs to authors to academics and performers and TED Talkers is imposter syndrome.
0
SPEAKER_02
And it s something that seems to be something that affects pretty much everybody, but almost disproportionately affects high performers of the exact type of people that listen to the show.
0
SPEAKER_02
So I wanted to have you guys come on and discuss this, because I know you see this at boot camp all the time, and it d be great to talk about what imposter syndrome is, why it s bad, how we deal with it, et cetera.
0
SPEAKER_00
Sure, I think another part of it goes back to a topic that we ve discussed here before, which is the Dunning-Kruger effect, where people on the lower end of the bell curve of intelligence are going to tend to beat their chest about things that they don t know about and tasks and activities that they ve never done before and will rate themselves on a higher level, where those on the higher end of the bell curve
0
SPEAKER_00
know what they don t know, are gonna be uncomfortable doing things they ve never done before, they know that they re going to not be so good with those things, that also lends itself to self-doubt, being very critical of yourself, and I think that s what is in common with high performers.
0
SPEAKER_02
So basically, as high performers, we know, well, I m not gonna get this right off the bat, whereas somebody who s kind of more of a knucklehead will go,
0
SPEAKER_02
this is so easy, I don t know why you have a problem with it.
0
SPEAKER_02
And instead of comparing our levels of self-awareness, we just compare our level of confidence, which ends up misleading us as to how competent we might be at something.
0
SPEAKER_00
Sure, and if you don t have that much experience with life, just being somebody, a young guy, because that experience isn t there, it s easy to get caught up in a negative self-doubt loop and self-criticizing yourself and buying into your own self-doubt.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I think one of the most shocking things for us has been the more that we ve sort of opened up to people about this in our peer group, the more common it really is.
0
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of times we sort of lock these feelings of inadequacy in, you know, we withhold them.
0
SPEAKER_01
We don t want to share them with others.
0
SPEAKER_01
We view them as weakness and the syndrome we think just affects us.
0
SPEAKER_01
So step number one is identifying what imposter syndrome is and calling it imposter syndrome.
0
SPEAKER_00
If you get caught up in a self-doubt loop, you could also get caught up and flourish in a positive self-talk loop.
0
SPEAKER_00
So with that experience and certain habits can force it in another manner.
0
SPEAKER_00
But we ll get there.
0
SPEAKER_00
We ll have to talk about how we can work through this and things to help us be better with it.
0
SPEAKER_02
It s an element of negative self-talk that happens with, especially with high performers.
0
SPEAKER_02
What are these voices, that I m the only one that sort of slipped through the cracks, I don t belong here, look at everybody else, they re so smart, so capable.
0
SPEAKER_02
What other types of talk are we looking at?
0
SPEAKER_01
Well, the two psychologists that coined this term, Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes, 1978 said, it s a feeling of phoniness in people who believe that they are not intelligent, capable, or creative, despite evidence of high achievement.
0
SPEAKER_01
All of the reality is that you have accomplished things, but you continually doubt your ability to achieve and believe inside that you are a phony or a fake.
0
SPEAKER_00
Sure, and we can chalk that up to cognitive distortions, flawed thought patterns.
0
SPEAKER_02
So basically the same biases that affect us all in other areas are now affecting us in our self-talk It seems like it s self-reinforcing because if we think I m the only one here is look the cracks I don t belong here and then when we do eventually start that activity We don t necessarily realize that maybe other people think the same thing and we start to go Oh, look, we start to be our own harshest critic which then takes us into this negative thought loop.
0
SPEAKER_00
How can you be able to?
0
SPEAKER_00
To see it, any other person dealing with that one, the only tools that you have to deal with the world are your own senses, which always put you in the middle of whatever s going on.
0
SPEAKER_00
So it s hard to see anyone else struggling with it.
0
SPEAKER_00
When we look out through our bubble, we just see people doing their thing, thinking they know what they re doing, they have it put together, and we re struggling inside.
0
SPEAKER_01
And everyone has this feeling of wanting to make it look easy, even though it takes a lot of effort.
0
SPEAKER_01
Of course.
0
SPEAKER_01
No one wants to talk about the effort behind the scenes to be flawless, to be perfect, to get the 1600 on the SAT.
0
SPEAKER_01
But behind the scenes, they re doing a lot of work.
0
SPEAKER_01
They re practicing.
0
SPEAKER_01
They re trying to figure out these skills.
0
SPEAKER_01
So because of that, we see everyone else sort of effortlessly achieving.
0
SPEAKER_01
And then internally, we re like, well, we haven t achieved what they have achieved.
0
SPEAKER_01
I m not worthy of all of these compliments, testimonials, or people saying that I m the shit.
0
SPEAKER_01
So that feeling of phoniness, we lock inside.
0
SPEAKER_01
We don t share with other people.
0
SPEAKER_00
Well, there s another thing to that.
0
SPEAKER_00
There s the randomness of things not working if you look at other people and what they have going on.
0
SPEAKER_00
And if you see those problems everywhere else around you, then your own world starts to become
0
SPEAKER_00
very crippling because it comes collapsing on you.
0
SPEAKER_00
So like, even right now, if we had to look at what is going on for us to be able to put this podcast together right now, well, there s an electric company somewhere just keeping the lights on, there s these computers that are working, and we see all these things that
0
SPEAKER_00
have to work for us to do this, and see them for the little pieces that they are, that they can all fall apart at any moment, that our whole world starts falling apart.
0
SPEAKER_00
We are geared not to worry about those things, so we can focus on the task at hand.
0
SPEAKER_00
We shut all those other things else down.
0
SPEAKER_01
the sense of not feeling that you re worth the accolades or achievements you ve gained is fairly common in high achievers, which is something that a lot of people don t talk about.
0
SPEAKER_01
And just like all these other cognitive distortions we talk about on Friday in class that kind of blow the doors off of things, we share these cognitive distortions.
0
SPEAKER_01
We all do.
0
SPEAKER_01
We all have these feelings.
0
SPEAKER_01
So part of today is just opening up about that conversation that each one of us has felt this syndrome in our lives.
0
SPEAKER_00
Well sure, imagine you re going in for surgery and you had just found out that your surgeon is in the washroom having a bout of imposter syndrome.
0
SPEAKER_00
How good would you feel about what the task at hand?
0
SPEAKER_00
No, not good at all.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right?
0
SPEAKER_00
And I m sure how many listeners
0
SPEAKER_00
have been in the courtroom and while you re sitting there trying to have your DUI handled or whatever legal thing you re involved with, and your attorney is sweating it out in the bathroom going, I can t get in there.
0
SPEAKER_00
I can t do this.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if I m the guy for this.
0
SPEAKER_00
How good would you feel about this?
0
SPEAKER_00
We can t understand that is going on elsewhere.
0
SPEAKER_02
It seems like this problem increases as the distance between our opinion of ourselves and our own abilities and our accolades increases.
0
SPEAKER_02
So if I win a Grammy but I still think I m not really a good singer, that s actually gonna make the problem worse as I achieve more because the distance between my self-assessment and how other people assess me begins to widen and probably causes some issues.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and what we end up doing is that wall continues to grow and grow and grow.
0
SPEAKER_01
And when it comes crashing down, it s a pretty intense mental struggle.
0
SPEAKER_01
So it s important to recognize that this is normal.
0
SPEAKER_01
This is common.
0
SPEAKER_01
Call it what it is, imposter syndrome.
0
SPEAKER_01
And then we can start to deal with it and break it down as to why it s happening and how it s impacting us.
0
SPEAKER_01
Great.
0
SPEAKER_00
Do you guys have any stories about this in your own life that you want to share?
0
SPEAKER_00
as we just mentioned, everyone deals with this at some point.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I gotta say, I mean, of course, at the beginning of this company, right, it was difficult when we decided to fight for an idea when things aren t going well for all entrepreneurs, when you re grinding it through, you re gonna have talk all day to yourself of, is this worth fighting for?
0
SPEAKER_00
Am I the guy who s able to fight and see this through to the end?
0
SPEAKER_00
And all of us, at one point or another,
1
SPEAKER_00
ourselves late at night staring at the ceiling.
1
SPEAKER_00
Am I doing the right thing?
1
SPEAKER_00
Are we doing the right thing?
1
SPEAKER_00
Is our message getting across?
1
SPEAKER_00
Are we helping people?
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think at the end of the day, when we got letters, when we got emails, when we saw people subscribing to the podcast, we re like, yes, it is worth it.
1
SPEAKER_00
It does make sense.
1
SPEAKER_00
We are doing the right thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
It is worth fighting for.
1
SPEAKER_00
We ll get some more examples of that in a bit.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it seems like you really need to amass just overwhelming evidence to the contrary of you being some sort of fakie, disabled, whatever type of person.
1
SPEAKER_02
A person who s not able to handle the work.
1
SPEAKER_02
When AJ and I first started the show, people were like, oh, will you coach us in this particular skill set?
1
SPEAKER_02
And I remember 10 years ago going,
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, we re not coaches, we can t do this.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then we flew around and met all these other so-called coaches and we started taking coaching programs and realized like, wait a minute, not only are we able to do this and are we acing these coaching programs, but other people who seem to have no problem calling themselves coaches and have very satisfied clients are nowhere near as good at this stuff.
1
SPEAKER_02
We just happen to be much more hard on ourselves when it came down to maybe labeling ourselves as such.
1
SPEAKER_02
Took years to kind of get over that.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, for me the time of my life that I felt it the strongest was in graduate school.
1
SPEAKER_03
I was starting my third year and was preparing to work on a thesis and the first couple years in grad school you just rotate through labs and I was working on a cancer biology PhD program and the rotations were going okay, some of my experiments were working, some weren t working and then I finally picked a lab and it was a pretty famous lab at the time for colon cancer research and my boss was
1
SPEAKER_03
well regarded, highly esteemed editor of numerous journals.
1
SPEAKER_03
And as I worked in the lab, my experiments were failing one after the other.
1
SPEAKER_03
And my thesis work wasn t really coming together.
1
SPEAKER_03
Like I saw all these other graduate students come together.
1
SPEAKER_03
And I really started to question like,
1
SPEAKER_03
my value?
1
SPEAKER_03
Did I belong?
1
SPEAKER_03
Was I actually valid in getting in?
1
SPEAKER_03
Maybe it was an oversight.
1
SPEAKER_03
Somehow I squeezed through.
1
SPEAKER_03
And unfortunately for me, this was over 10 years ago now, I didn t have the mental strength to really deal with it.
1
SPEAKER_03
And I ended up quitting graduate school.
1
SPEAKER_03
And what s so interesting now in telling this story on the program and working with so many graduate students in class, it s a pretty common thought amongst graduate students of,
1
SPEAKER_03
as things are not going your way, and you ve spent years of your life working on a project, and you aren t getting the results that you want, those feelings of doubt start to creep in, and sometimes they can overwhelm you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Success quickly is also another way that it hits you, because it was, you read everywhere,
1
SPEAKER_00
Everything seems so hard, but you for yourself, whatever reason, a lot of times young artists will have a lot of success out of the gate and they don t know how to deal with it.
1
SPEAKER_00
There s a lot of self-doubt.
1
SPEAKER_00
There are a lot of, did I just get lucky?
1
SPEAKER_00
Am I the real deal?
1
SPEAKER_00
Am I a genuine artist?
1
SPEAKER_00
Am I that good?
1
SPEAKER_00
Where somebody who gained that attention maybe 30 years after working hard will take every bit of that and cling onto it dearly and not question anything.
1
SPEAKER_03
Right.
1
SPEAKER_03
So would you say, in your opinion, that imposter syndrome happens at a younger age?
1
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because it s just the the experience isn t there to back it up.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you were mentioned about the lab, though.
1
SPEAKER_00
You ve been working on those things for years in the grand scheme of things.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s a very small sliver sliver.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
I see what you try to tell that story to somebody who is 50 years old.
1
SPEAKER_00
They re like, oh, you re in grad school, huh?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, well, it s kind of like saying, I m not as rich as all the other billionaires.
1
SPEAKER_02
I feel bad about it.
1
SPEAKER_02
And he s like, look, you re at a PhD program at a top school, and you re worried about you re not able to do this.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, they wouldn t have accepted you for that.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, is it a function of age, or is it a function of experience in a certain field?
1
SPEAKER_02
You know, if I m 50 and I reinvent my career, am I gonna have imposter syndrome in this new field that I m in?
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, I think there s levels for everybody, but I think it s more of a phenomenon for younger,
1
SPEAKER_00
folks who haven t had all that life experience who are either struggling or had some success up front because it s very nerve-wracking.
1
SPEAKER_00
The people who are struggling, am I good enough?
1
SPEAKER_00
Should I be here?
1
SPEAKER_00
People who got success early, did I have a lightning strike?
1
SPEAKER_00
Am I as talented as everyone around me thinks?
1
SPEAKER_00
So that it will fuck with you in both ways.
1
SPEAKER_03
And it all comes back to failure.
1
SPEAKER_03
It s how we deal with and handle failure.
1
SPEAKER_03
When we look at it, it s what s the root cause of the failure?
1
SPEAKER_03
Is it coming from something that you ve been working on for months, or are we talking about 20 years?
1
SPEAKER_03
And I think with age, we start to realize that failure is more of an opportunity than we saw in our youth.
1
SPEAKER_02
Alright, we already know it s normal, we already know that a lot of people go through this, that must mean that it serves some function at some point, or is just a common mistake that people make, but is there a certain degree to which you end up with imposter syndrome where it s no longer, hey this is normal, this is healthy, it s fine, to where you re going, hey look, you re shooting yourself in the foot actively by indulging this feeling.
1
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely, and I think it depends on how much you buy into your own self-talk.
1
SPEAKER_00
How many of these little voices in your head, which voices get credit?
1
SPEAKER_00
And you ll rationalize different things in different ways to accept whatever final result, thought you need to.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that s important because you have to establish what thoughts are allowing you to move forward and which thoughts hold you back.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because you re gonna buy into it one way or another.
1
SPEAKER_00
So you get to choose which ones you re gonna buy into.
1
SPEAKER_00
and that s why it s a cognitive distortion.
1
SPEAKER_03
So what can we do about it?
1
SPEAKER_03
How do we come off it?
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I think the first step is recognizing it and calling it imposter syndrome.
1
SPEAKER_03
I know 10 years ago when I was in the lab, I didn t even know it was a thing, and I d never heard of it before, and I didn t know to mentally categorize it in that way.
1
SPEAKER_03
So for me, step one was identifying the problem and realizing that it s important that we recognize that we took action.
1
SPEAKER_03
So in taking action, there are going to be consequences that we like and consequences that we don t like.
1
SPEAKER_03
But you did say yes instead of no.
1
SPEAKER_03
And that simple act alone is gonna start your mind to look in the opposite direction, start looking for evidence to disprove this.
1
SPEAKER_03
As a cognitive distortion, it happens when our mind is focusing on the wrong things and essentially not seeing the reality of the situation.
1
SPEAKER_03
number one, giving it some humor.
1
SPEAKER_03
Turning it into a bit of levity in a situation where you re really stressed out, you re really focused, laughing at yourself, knowing that other people are going through this too, and it s just a mental trick you re playing on yourself.
1
SPEAKER_00
And a challenge of something fun to work through, because everyone deals with it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Now, here s your turn.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it is something that you can beat, but identify it first, put some humor in front of it, and know that there s going to be a voyage through this.
1
SPEAKER_01
Over the last 17 years, we have launched our fair share of online courses, coaching programs, and finding the right platform has always been a challenge.
1
SPEAKER_03
They say if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life.
1
SPEAKER_03
But if you re an entrepreneur, you know the hard work that comes with it.
1
SPEAKER_03
That s why you need Kajabi.
1
SPEAKER_03
Kajabi makes it easy to run your entire online business from one platform so you can focus on what you love.
1
SPEAKER_03
Creating.
1
SPEAKER_01
Kajabi is the ultimate all-in-one platform that helps creators and entrepreneurs build successful online businesses by unlocking predictable recurring revenue.
1
SPEAKER_03
No matter your niche, Kajabi makes it easy to turn your skills, passions, and experiences into enriching online courses, exclusive membership sites, subscription podcasts, thriving communities, personalized coaching, and more.
1
SPEAKER_01
The best part?
1
SPEAKER_01
Kajabi doesn t cut into your revenue because everything is owned and controlled by you.
1
SPEAKER_01
So keep 100% of what you earn.
1
SPEAKER_03
And with Kajabi, you also get robust analytics, easy payment options, email marketing tools, and customizable website templates, all built in.
1
SPEAKER_01
You don t even need a huge audience to make sustainable income.
1
SPEAKER_01
There are thousands of creators on Kajabi making six and seven figures with less than 50,000 followers.
1
SPEAKER_03
Right now, Kajabi is offering a free 30-day trial to start your business if you go to kajabi.com slash charm.
1
SPEAKER_03
That s K-A-J-A-B-I dot com slash charm.
1
SPEAKER_01
Go to Kajabi.com slash charm and join the creators and entrepreneurs who have made over seven billion dollars.
1
SPEAKER_03
Hey Art of Charm listeners, I m excited to share a new podcast I ve been absolutely binging.
1
SPEAKER_03
Winning is an everyday mindset and Craig Robinson and John Calipari are here to help.
1
SPEAKER_03
On Ways to Win podcast, Craig and Coach Cal use their on-court wisdom to solve your off-court problems.
1
SPEAKER_03
Whether it s trouble at home or a workplace dilemma, the coaches will help you find a winning formula for success.
1
SPEAKER_03
You ll hear from prominent athletes, business leaders, and celebrities who reveal insights that made them into the leaders they are today.
1
SPEAKER_03
And don t miss President Obama sharing how he deals with pressure by projecting confidence, believing in your team, and taking criticism.
1
SPEAKER_03
Listen to Ways to Win wherever you get your podcasts.
1
SPEAKER_02
How do we start to accept that we actually maybe have played some role in the success we ve had so far?
1
SPEAKER_02
Because it s really easy to look and say, like I did on Wall Street, the guy here who s gonna get fired, they re gonna figure out,
2
SPEAKER_02
along here, everybody s smarter than me.
2
SPEAKER_02
And even at some level, I m still like, I was right about that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Step one, you re there.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re there.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re there.
2
SPEAKER_00
So whether it be you tricked them all.
2
SPEAKER_01
Or you earned it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Or you earned it.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re there.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, that s the step one, is recognizing that you re there.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s an important thing, and I want to give this analogy and this story.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, the Ramones is a band that everyone at least has heard of.
2
SPEAKER_00
At the very beginning of their existence in the 70s, there was nothing going on, and they didn t like any of the music that they heard on the radio.
2
SPEAKER_00
So they decided to start the band that they would want to hear on the radio.
2
SPEAKER_00
not knowing how to play.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so they find CBGBs, they manage to rehearse, get themselves on stage.
2
SPEAKER_00
And of course, those performances, which are on YouTube, are a complete catastrophe, all starting a different song, a fistfight on stage.
2
SPEAKER_00
But the moment that they had got off stage and one person walked up and said, wow, this is everything that I ve wanted to see and rock and roll that we re not seeing anymore.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Johnny looks to Deedee and he goes, well, we fooled one.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
We got one.
2
SPEAKER_00
How many other people can we fool now at that time?
2
SPEAKER_00
It was how many people can we convince that we actually know what s going on when we can hide the fact that we can t play well from doing that for decades.
2
SPEAKER_00
they ended up pulling the reverse, which is being able to play those songs.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it wasn t faking anymore.
2
SPEAKER_00
They did it, they faked it until they made it and it became a reality.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so, whether you got to that point by sheer luck and faking it, that s a great place to be to figure the rest of it out.
2
SPEAKER_01
So, there you go.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the aha moment that perception is reality.
2
SPEAKER_01
I know it s a cliche phrase, but when you recognize that the way you perceive an event has real value on its reality to you.
2
SPEAKER_01
So looking at a situation and starting to make a choice, does the evidence that I m seeing back what I mentally am feeling?
2
SPEAKER_01
And in this case,
2
SPEAKER_01
looking at the appreciation, the gratitude, the accolades, the testimonials that people are giving you.
2
SPEAKER_01
And for some of us, it s actually putting them all in one place, storing them on a Post-it note or in a document on your phone, so in those moments where you re like, man, I m failing, I m bashing my head against the wall, I don t think I deserve to be on this list, or I don t think I deserve this accolade, to then go pull up this document and be like, well,
2
SPEAKER_01
Come on, AJ, that s ridiculous.
2
SPEAKER_01
Things have been going right your way for five years now.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re hitting a roadblock.
2
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t make you an imposter.
2
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t make you any less worthy of these results.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then the other part of that is you have to be able to accept the compliment that somebody else gave you.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s going to be a fight.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if you continue to ignore those and say, well, those don t matter, they were just being nice to me, or however you rationalize it, it s going to be a long, long fight.
2
SPEAKER_00
So how do we break through some of these cognitive distortions?
2
SPEAKER_02
Do you keep a list of accolades or do you keep a list of appreciation letters from other people or awards you ve won?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, as AJ said, you keep this list and you accept the things that they had complimented you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Part of keeping the list is accepting, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s putting it in a place, saying that this is reality, that I made someone else feel this way.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was appreciated and I received this achievement award because of it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
I will say that people who cannot take a compliment, cannot accept a compliment, are doing themselves a big disservice.
2
SPEAKER_00
They may feel on one side it keeps them humble, but it is fucking them over internally.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it is not allowing them to move forward and use these things to feel good about their place and where they re going.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that s very important.
2
SPEAKER_01
The second thing I would say is to focus on others.
2
SPEAKER_01
When we are feeling imposter syndrome, we are looking inward.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re only focusing on ourselves.
2
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of times, getting out of that funk is giving value to other people, being of service to other people, helping someone out, listening to them, offering them advice, investing in their life, instead of just focusing on what s going on with you, can mentally pull you out of this funk.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s a fast track because what is that other person then going to say in return about what you had just done, which you now have to accept?
2
SPEAKER_00
Right, it s a great thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right, so it s a virtuous cycle because it pulls you out of that hardcore introspection that s not doing you any favors and simultaneously you re proving the rule which is that you are able to help other people or offer value or be of value of service.
2
SPEAKER_01
One of the problems with the accolades, the testimonials, they re very temporal.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s very locked in that moment.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s easy for you to say, oh, well, yeah, AJ in the past was deserving of this, but the current AJ isn t deserving of this.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s why being of service to others, helping other people out, empowering other people, focusing outward and giving value to others will allow you to get that appreciation in the moment.
2
SPEAKER_00
Another one is make sure that you understand that when you re comparing yourself to other people, you re putting yourself in a, once again, another disservice of not moving forward, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
You re so focused on what everyone else is doing that you cannot do the work that you need to do to move forward.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that s a tough one because this is something that I m definitely guilty of too.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s funny because you can look at people that you compared yourself to five years ago and you re like, what was I thinking?
2
SPEAKER_02
But then you find yourself in the same breath comparing yourself to somebody else in this particular moment and going, well, my life is over because I don t have five best-selling books.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, at the end of the day, the only person you need to be comparing yourself to is who you were yesterday.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then can you incrementally be even 1% better?
2
SPEAKER_00
However, when you re young and you haven t laid out any of that experience, you do have to look around to see what s going on.
2
SPEAKER_00
But it s to keep that in the proper perspective that that is not the be all end all.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the perspective, the most important perspective to keep in mind is the journey.
2
SPEAKER_01
When we re on the journey, we never really compare ourselves to someone who s been doing it the same amount of time or on the same level.
2
SPEAKER_01
We often compare ourselves to people who are three steps ahead of us.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, guess what?
2
SPEAKER_01
They re three steps ahead because they ve also invested more time in that project.
2
SPEAKER_01
So to compare yourself to a best-selling author or a multi-millionaire, well, yeah, that person s been in business for 15 years.
2
SPEAKER_01
We ve been doing this for 10.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, those five years, as we ve seen, can have exponential growth.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s not as far off as we think.
2
SPEAKER_01
The problem is we discount the other person s journey to get there.
2
SPEAKER_02
We always compare our blooper reel to someone else s highlight reel.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like you said, we don t take into account the journey, we don t take into account the other myriad things going on, and additionally, we always tend to pick and choose.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s never like, this one person has all this stuff, I wish we were doing more of that.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s always, well this person has this, and this other person has that, and then these other five people have these other things, and you think somehow you should have all of those, when if you added all those people s journeys together, you d have 185 years of work.
2
SPEAKER_02
put into those particular achievements, which is actually impossible.
2
SPEAKER_02
So you set up this losing battle for yourself that you then replay in your head, and that reinforces the imposter syndrome and the self-comparisons to the point where you could cripple yourself with that type of self-talk.
2
SPEAKER_01
We are aware this is not easy.
2
SPEAKER_01
This takes self-discipline.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is mind control, but our own, which is the only mind you can control.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s realizing that, listen, my mind is going to stray.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m going to have these thoughts.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s not rewarding those thoughts and allowing those thoughts to blossom into thinking.
2
SPEAKER_01
We have these blinking moments in time where an emotion peaks in our head and we look at someone, we compare ourselves to their perfectly curated Instagram photo, and then we get locked on that and it becomes a thought pattern.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s important to break that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I will say as somebody older and seeing the Instagram generation and not knowing what goes into those pictures and finally learning what goes on those pictures, oh my God, that blew my mind to give me proper perspective on what I was seeing.
2
SPEAKER_00
I couldn t even believe it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was amazed at how much time people will spend to get that perfect picture.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s gotten to a level now that they don t even want the perfect picture.
2
SPEAKER_01
Your feed has to match up color wise, look wise, because no one s just looking at an individual picture anymore.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re looking at your feed and flipping through.
2
SPEAKER_01
So you want to get the colors coordinating and the travel.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
So we re looking at a generation curated, overly curated to the point that all you ever see is that top part of the iceberg that is everyone s amazing, perfect self.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know for myself, if I didn t get the picture in two tries, then I move on.
2
SPEAKER_00
The picture s not getting done.
2
SPEAKER_00
But the thing is, understanding how I went about it, being an older person, understand how the younger generation is going about it, it was an awakening for me to know what was going on.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s a little scary, actually.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it s very scary.
2
SPEAKER_02
I look at social media, we all do that sort of like compare contrast thing, which social media is designed to do, but man, if you get sucked into that Instagram, especially if you re like a young teenage girl, it s gotta be just crushing amounts of pressure.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m so glad that I didn t grow up in that particular type of environment.
2
SPEAKER_02
So what s sort of the antidote?
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, what can we really do to become more real and get a more accurate hold and handle on who we are?
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, the key piece of advice that we talk about a lot here at The Art of Charm is just treating the journey like an experiment, and knowing that all experiments have negative results and positive results, and enjoying setting up the experiment, and pushing yourself, challenging yourself to get that 1% better.
3
SPEAKER_02
for you to get bad results.
3
SPEAKER_02
Why?
3
SPEAKER_02
Because it was a test.
3
SPEAKER_02
You re giving it a shot and making the proper corrections and moving forward.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s not a done deal.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s plenty of life to live and these tests have to be done.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right, so looking at the failure or a perceived failure is simply another data point instead of something that means something about ourselves.
3
SPEAKER_02
Sure, which is, you know, a whole other thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we see it a lot.
3
SPEAKER_02
A program, there s a lot of perfectionists out there.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so the idea of running a test and getting some 98% as the result.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s not going to work.
3
SPEAKER_02
So what if you get a 98?
3
SPEAKER_02
So what if you get an 80?
3
SPEAKER_02
So what if you get a 50?
3
SPEAKER_02
You now have evidence and data to make corrections to do something else with.
3
SPEAKER_02
And just because things went wrong doesn t mean that you re not real.
3
SPEAKER_02
You don t deserve to be there.
3
SPEAKER_02
That means you re smarting yourself up to make the right decisions, to make the corrections.
3
SPEAKER_02
In fact, that makes it more worth why you are the one that s there and not somebody else.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it seems like the only way we can really lose in these situations is to not continue to try or to hold ourselves back because of this negative self-talk.
3
SPEAKER_00
We stand to lose much more from not putting ourselves out there, not going after it because of our negative self-talk than we d continue to try to do something even if we fail.
3
SPEAKER_00
Basically, the only way you lose with this negative self-talk, with the imposter syndrome, is if it s able to stop you in your tracks.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, which happened to me in my 20s.
3
SPEAKER_01
I understand it completely, and it can be paralyzing.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s why we re talking about this and bringing some recognition to it, because I know there are a lot of people listening who probably have never heard of this.
3
SPEAKER_02
AJ, you had mentioned earlier to keep a list of compliments and things that you get that come your way, which is great, and it s also a form of journaling, but journaling on your own wins and keeping track of that, no matter how small they may be.
3
SPEAKER_02
So not only are you keeping track of what other people are sending your way in compliments, flattery, but you yourself are keeping track of your own wins.
3
SPEAKER_02
Putting this all together, you re going to have a nice list to look back on, to feel good about.
3
SPEAKER_02
And you are now starting to build that experience that we were talking about earlier, that when older people deal with imposter syndrome, they can laugh at it because the work has been done.
3
SPEAKER_02
They feel good while they re there.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the great part about journaling is putting your thoughts actually out on paper or in a note in your iPad or iPhone and allowing yourself to go back and see them, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
A lot of times we put so much weight behind this one thought, and if you could just go back to 72 days ago, what was that thought you were having in the morning when you were brushing your teeth, you d realize that you have a variety of thoughts swirling, and some of them are, yes, I am Superman, I am invincible, and some of them are, I am an imposter.
3
SPEAKER_01
and realizing through journaling that these thoughts come and go.
3
SPEAKER_01
You just can t allow them to become implanted in your mind and be that thought pattern, that thinking that we re talking about.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is almost like, remember that movie Memento, where the guy s tattooing notes on himself so he can remember stuff?
3
SPEAKER_00
This is almost like the on-paper version of that, where you basically are leaving a breadcrumb trail of proof and clues for yourself that says,
3
SPEAKER_00
Next time I feel like I don t belong at this job because all these other people are smarter than me, go back three weeks later where you rocked it in a meeting and everyone gave you a pat on the back and you won this little paper plate award and everyone took you out for lunch or something like that because you were the man of the hour.
3
SPEAKER_00
That type of thing can then start to show you, look, all of these things are temporary, all of these things are based on my own set of feelings which are based on all kinds of different external factors over which we have either no control or are not even relevant to our situation in the first place.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I know myself, I have just loads of notes on Evernote and notebooks in my phone, and random times throughout the year, I just kinda end up surfing back through and being like, let me make sure I deleted all the grocery lists in my notes, and I ll go through and read some of the thoughts I had, and in this moment, it was pure genius.
3
SPEAKER_01
I need to write this down, this is gonna be a product that s gonna make us a lot of money, solve people s problems, and then I ll read it and be like,
3
SPEAKER_01
That s just stupid.
3
SPEAKER_01
Why did I think that was smart?
3
SPEAKER_01
So just having a journal of that stream of consciousness of your greatest insights and those low moments allow you to put those thoughts in that silly box.
3
SPEAKER_01
This imposter thought is just as silly as how I thought it d be a millionaire creating a sticker to block your webcam.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it reminds me of James Aldrich who says something like, you know, write down 10 ideas every day.
3
SPEAKER_00
Most of them, probably 10 out of 10, are gonna be really terrible ideas.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you just do it anyway.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it makes you realize that, hey, some of your thoughts are terrible thoughts.
3
SPEAKER_02
Completely rubbish, not relevant to reality at all.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it starts in an entrepreneurial shit, but it s also.
3
SPEAKER_02
All artists have to start things and go, that was stupid.
3
SPEAKER_02
What the hell was I thinking?
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, that riff is awful.
3
SPEAKER_02
What was I thinking using this as a medium too?
3
SPEAKER_02
And it s like, you re going to have bad ideas.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s okay.
3
SPEAKER_02
And a lot of times people for all the work that they put in, they can t get out of their past.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we ve talked about that in narrative work and with another podcast.
3
SPEAKER_02
But just because you had been somebody or came from somewhere, that doesn t mean you re stuck there.
3
SPEAKER_02
And a lot of people, it s almost like being in quicksand.
3
SPEAKER_01
Their past becomes these unbreakable chains that carry with them and slowly but surely it impedes any sort of action.
3
SPEAKER_02
In fact, you know, because you came from there and now at this place, it makes you that much more heroic.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, we went home for the holidays.
3
SPEAKER_01
How many people back home knowing our past can believe where we are now?
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, so we re kind of living the opposite.
3
SPEAKER_01
But the point is, your past does not mean future results.
3
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely not.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s the same thing you talk about in investing.
3
SPEAKER_01
You can t look at your past and guarantee future success or future failure.
3
SPEAKER_01
And looking at that way is losing thinking.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I will go as far as saying, and I think all of us here understand how bad the American school system is.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s like geared up for sending people in factories in the 40s and the guidance counselors of let s see your grades and making a prediction of where you re going to be in 10 years.
3
SPEAKER_02
Don t worry about any of that.
3
SPEAKER_02
That means nothing.
3
SPEAKER_02
The work that you re willing to do, the tenacity that you have to do it, and the heart that you have is going to be a determination of where you re going to be doing.
3
SPEAKER_02
Not anyone else, from their looking at your grades and seeing what you re doing at school.
3
SPEAKER_02
At what, ninth grade?
3
SPEAKER_01
I m glad we re not looking at my ninth grade report card.
3
SPEAKER_01
No kidding.
3
SPEAKER_01
No kidding.
3
SPEAKER_01
Talking to people.
3
SPEAKER_01
It sounds so simple, but it is so incredibly important to share these thoughts openly with someone.
3
SPEAKER_01
And fortunately for you guys, we ve built a challenge, a Facebook group that has like-minded individuals sharing some areas of life that they re focusing on, some qualities they want to change, and really working on their social skills.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s a perfect place, again, to share these thoughts openly and allow them to sort of get out of your own head.
3
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes we lock ourselves in these thoughts, we marinate in these thoughts, and they, again, impede the action that we need to be taking.
3
SPEAKER_01
And just the simple act of sharing it with a friend we truly trust, or going into an online Facebook group like ours at The Challenge, and logging in and sharing, hey, this is something that I need to improve, this is something that I m feeling, and boom, 40 people are like, oh, I m feeling this too, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
It lessens the burden, it takes that weight off your shoulders.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I want everyone who s listening to this to think about confidence as a structure.
3
SPEAKER_02
We ll look at it as structural confidence.
3
SPEAKER_02
Confidence that has to be built.
3
SPEAKER_02
It is nothing that a light bulb gets turned on or it s nothing that you ve just been given.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s something that you build.
3
SPEAKER_02
Just like this company has been something that we ve built.
3
SPEAKER_02
Just like a skyscraper is something to be built.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we understand what the time and effort it takes to build a skyscraper, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
A building.
3
SPEAKER_02
It takes some of these things that we see in New York and Los Angeles takes years to build, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
Realistically, how fast can we bring one down?
3
SPEAKER_02
And all of us who ve been through September 11th know not much can bring it down.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so all this work to build something, a few seconds to take it down.
3
SPEAKER_02
So if we look at confidence as this building that we re putting together, even if we just build the building, we build the confidence and we let it go, what is going to happen just after time?
3
SPEAKER_02
Time in itself, natural causes are gonna bring it down.
3
SPEAKER_02
So just by putting it up and never looking at it again, there s already forces at work to take down that building, to take down your confidence.
3
SPEAKER_02
So what are the other things that are gonna take down your confidence?
3
SPEAKER_02
a friend stabbing you in the back, a girlfriend dumping you, some bullshit at work happening to you, and your confidence is taking hits from all sides.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so what are we going to do to guard against that?
3
SPEAKER_02
And just from the natural forces in and of itself, maintenance, a strong foundation, reinforcement, who s going to be doing that for us?
3
SPEAKER_02
We gotta do that for ourselves.
3
SPEAKER_02
Sure, getting a girlfriend can give us some confidence.
3
SPEAKER_02
Getting a promotion at work can get us some confidence.
3
SPEAKER_02
But is that confidence gonna continue to build and strengthen?
3
SPEAKER_02
It s a little shot to the arm.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re the only force that is going to be steady and building that, strengthening it, and making sure that foundation is there.
3
SPEAKER_02
And all the other forces are there to take it down.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so at that point, you have two choices.
4
SPEAKER_00
Are you gonna be somebody who s gonna be adding to your structural confidence?
4
SPEAKER_00
Or are you gonna be somebody who s helping all the other forces take it down?
4
SPEAKER_00
There s your choices right there.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you wanna be somebody who is listening to your self-doubt, listening to the gremlins, as Brene Brown would say, all the bad internal stuff, you now have made a choice to take down the structural confidence that you build.
4
SPEAKER_00
Or you can journal.
4
SPEAKER_00
You could put yourself out there.
4
SPEAKER_00
You could talk to other people.
4
SPEAKER_00
And now you are somebody who s reinforcing the structural confidence.
4
SPEAKER_00
From those decisions, you will see that the circle becomes, and it s a reinforcement of positive or reinforcement of negative.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you decide which one that is going to be.
4
SPEAKER_00
Who s helping you build the structure?
4
SPEAKER_03
the people you re spending time with, the people you re investing in as well.
4
SPEAKER_03
So being cognizant of the role that they re playing in your confidence.
4
SPEAKER_00
Do you want to continue hanging out with people who are going to be taking sledgehammers and running planes into your structural confidence?
4
SPEAKER_00
Or you want to be hanging out with people who are bringing over some pain, shining up those windows, reinforcing the doors, bringing in some plywood?
4
SPEAKER_00
Those are the people we want to be hanging out with.
4
SPEAKER_03
Last thing I want to touch on, through imposter syndrome, it does develop a bit of humility.
4
SPEAKER_03
And it is important for us to understand and put into context some of our achievements.
4
SPEAKER_03
So we re not saying the only way to get over imposter syndrome is to just become this overconfident, almost arrogant being.
4
SPEAKER_03
It s understanding that there is some humility in success as well, that it s been some chance
4
SPEAKER_03
some environment, some influence that has got you to the point that you are, and allowing that and fostering those feelings to become someone who s a well-rounded individual.
4
SPEAKER_02
So we can t just cover it up with a shellacking of bravado, like, oh, no, I m totally great here.
4
SPEAKER_02
Everybody else doesn t belong here, or whatever kind of overcompensation we might tend to have when we finally realize, oh, this is imposter syndrome.
4
SPEAKER_02
In fact, I can see myself doing something like this, reacting like, all right, I gotta go
4
SPEAKER_02
swing that pendulum far to the other side and make sure nobody else sees my imposter syndrome by being a total D-bag and throwing my weight around or something like that.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I can see my younger self doing something exactly like that.
4
SPEAKER_02
This reminds me of a parable that Tara Brack relayed.
4
SPEAKER_02
It might have been in an interview elsewhere.
4
SPEAKER_02
She s got a book called Radical Acceptance, by the way.
4
SPEAKER_02
We ll link that in the show notes.
4
SPEAKER_02
And she shared a story about Buddha and this demon called Mara.
4
SPEAKER_02
And it goes a little something like this.
4
SPEAKER_02
One day Buddha was teaching a large group and Mara was moving around the edges looking for a way into the group.
4
SPEAKER_02
I envisioned Mara running frantically back and forth in the bushes and trees making plans to wreak havoc.
4
SPEAKER_02
And one of Buddha s attendants saw Mara, ran to Buddha and warned him of Mara s presence.
4
SPEAKER_02
Hearing his attendant s frantic warning, the Buddha simply replied, Oh good, invite her in for tea.
4
SPEAKER_03
I think the important thing to realize from the parable is that, one, recognizing what imposter syndrome is, and two, inviting it in.
4
SPEAKER_03
Allowing yourself, reminding yourself to realize that it s okay.
4
SPEAKER_03
It s an important step of the process to success.
4
SPEAKER_03
And successful people around the world for generations, whether it s Albert Einstein or the entrepreneur that you re pining after, have experienced this.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, thanks guys.
4
SPEAKER_02
Great to have you out here and finally do some of these face-to-face.
4
SPEAKER_02
Great big thank you to the rest of the AOC team for that imposter syndrome.
4
SPEAKER_02
Put this stuff into play if you feel yourself getting that imposter syndrome itch, and let us know how it works out for you.
4
SPEAKER_02
And don t forget to check out the rest of the AOC toolbox.
4
SPEAKER_02
If you did enjoy this, let us know.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m at The Art of Charm on Twitter.
4
SPEAKER_02
I ll pass that along to the rest of the AOC team.
4
SPEAKER_02
And remember,
4
SPEAKER_02
You can tap the album art in most mobile podcast players to see the show notes for this episode.
4
SPEAKER_02
We ll link to the show notes right on your phone.
4
SPEAKER_02
Our boot camps, our live program details are at bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
4
SPEAKER_02
I love seeing people become part of the AOC family.
4
SPEAKER_02
The growth they experience over the next months and years is just nothing short of amazing.
4
SPEAKER_02
But do remember, we sell out a few months in advance, so if you re thinking about this, get in touch with us ASAP.
4
SPEAKER_02
We ll get some info out to you.
4
SPEAKER_02
You can plan ahead, no stress.
4
SPEAKER_02
And also, we ve got the AOC Challenge.
4
SPEAKER_02
at theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or if you re here in the States, you can text the word charmed to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
4
SPEAKER_02
The challenge is about improving your networking and connection skills and inspiring those around you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you.
4
SPEAKER_02
We ll also send you the rest of the AOC toolbox, of course, and I ve got videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward.
4
SPEAKER_02
It ll make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker, last but not least.
4
SPEAKER_02
So that s theyardofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed to 33444.
4
SPEAKER_02
For the full show notes for this and all previous episodes, head on over to theyardofcharm.com slash podcast.
4
SPEAKER_02
This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFillippo.
4
SPEAKER_02
Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and our editor, and the show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
4
SPEAKER_02
Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
4
SPEAKER_02
So stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
4
SPEAKER_01
Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
4
SPEAKER_01
Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.