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In this episode of the Advanced Selling Podcast, Bill shares an occurrence at a wedding with some of my Catholic brethren.
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I have a really bad vocab day.
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And we talk about the proper way to sell with data.
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We re going.
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Travis smiles and nods.
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That means we re going.
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Here we go.
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Ready to go.
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Welcome, everybody, to the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest running sales training podcast in podcast history.
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My name is Brian Neal.
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I m Bill Kasky.
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Ran out of my voice there.
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You need some cardio work.
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I do.
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I need to manage my breathing a little better, as they say in the business.
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Hey, if you re setting up for a sales meeting or sales conference this fall or even first quarter of 2020, we re your guys.
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All you have to do is send us an email, listener at advancedsellingpodcast.com, and we will talk to you about your options when it comes to bringing Bill out, me out, or both of us out.
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And we ll do lots of fun stuff when we come to visit.
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If you want to have a good, fun, enjoyable, useful, and beneficial sales meeting, again, send us an email.
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Come see us, and we ll talk to you about bringing the podcast live and in person.
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Give us a month s notice.
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Give us a month s notice.
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We re very gracious of all of our listeners.
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We have someone send us a note about six days before the gig.
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Need a little more advanced notice, just a little.
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Which is fine, just a little.
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We ll do that for him next year.
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The option, we will do that, yes.
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Well, I had a, I know, well, can I say you re a Catholic?
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Yeah, of course.
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Proud.
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So I know you re a member in good standing of the Catholic Church.
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That s debatable, actually.
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I had a experience with a wedding the other night, downtown at the, it s on Union Street, I don t know what the name of the church.
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The Cathedral?
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Not on Meridian.
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No, no, it s way downtown by Lily.
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Oh, okay, that is,
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That s where the CYO headquarters is.
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Is it older?
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Yeah, it s older.
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It s older.
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It s a beautiful church.
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I mean, it s a beautiful church.
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So two things.
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Number one, they need a new sound system.
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The sound system, it was really hard to hear.
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A little tinny.
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But I always, and in this wedding, it was a short version of a Catholic wedding.
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It was 45, 50 minutes.
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They did the Lord s Prayer.
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They do.
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Which I ve been doing the Lord s Prayer off and on, not constantly, but off and on for my age, you know, 50 some years.
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And in the last few years, I ve noticed that I m never quite sure which prayer they re going to pray.
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Because at one time it was trespassers, trespasses, and then it went to debtors, and then it went back to trespass.
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And so I m never quite sure.
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And then I understood that there was some verbiage at the end that we were leaving out now.
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The last line.
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We sort of pause.
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We pause, and then the priest offers a little segment there.
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Oh, OK.
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And then we finish up at the end.
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This was not on the instruction sheet that I got when I went in.
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No, it s not.
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It s not on the missalette, as they call it.
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So I always get that feeling in my stomach.
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It s like, well, I need to be a count behind everybody, because I don t want to be saying, and the Lord was, and I m the only one saying it.
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So it was funny.
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Oh, that s funny.
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I didn t embarrass myself or my family.
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I stopped, and everybody else stopped, and that was the end of the prayer.
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And I muttered to myself the last line, because I m not Catholic.
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But that is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, and the now and forever amen.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, so we say that after the priest says something, they did not finish it up.
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But the priest did not say anything there.
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It was just over.
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It was a hard stop.
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You can always tell when the pagans are in the house, when they keep rolling around.
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Everybody turns and looks at him like, who let the pagan in?
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Is there a Protestant in here?
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Who let the Protestant in?
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And then this wedding had like four videographers, two videographers and two photographers.
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I don t know how they re going to edit all this into it.
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It s got to be a major documentary of what they re going to do.
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But the guy came over, I was sitting in the fourth or fifth row, and the sound guy came over and dropped the little MP3, kind of like that.
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He dropped it over and he motions to me.
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Like, I think he meant don t touch it.
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But it s like, I almost said, I can t even hear, and I ve got ears.
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How is that thing picking up anything?
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You said it was short?
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50 minutes.
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5-0.
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OK, that s a short Catholic mass ceremony.
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I thought you meant short like 15, like they sipped through something.
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Oh, no, 5-0.
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Kind of a mini mass.
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Yeah, that s good.
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50 minutes for a Catholic wedding is really good.
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It is, and then we went to Indiana Roof Ballroom for the reception, which is really nice.
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If those of you local, you re probably familiar with Indiana Roof.
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It is one of those classic theater, I don t know, it s a ballroom, it s been around for years.
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Hard to get to when you re coming from the parking garage, but that s for another podcast.
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as a friend s neighbor s wedding, and it was a big, big deal.
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So anyway, I was curious about the Lord s Prayer thing, so you ve clarified it for me.
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Now, the other thing Catholics will tell you is that we ve also switched our own thing.
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So we ve been saying something the same way for basically 50 years or so.
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We just changed that up about three or four years ago.
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So not even the Catholics are
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are trying to figure out.
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Not the Lord s Prayer.
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No, just some other things that we say.
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Homilies?
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Like we used to say, you know, the priest would say, you know, the Lord be with you.
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And we would say, and also with you.
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Right.
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Oh, now it s a, and it s with your spirit is what we say now.
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So the priest says, the Lord be with you.
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And we say, and with your spirit.
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Oh, I never heard that.
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Yes.
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It s a different deal.
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Yeah, OK.
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And so you can also tell that people haven t been in church in 68 years, right?
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That s why they do that.
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And also with you, they re like, oh!
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Check out the heat.
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No.
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Before we get into our topic today, I wonder, Brian, here s a question for you.
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I m ready.
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Do you ever wish you could have done more this month, but just didn t have the time, tools, or processes?
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Just about every month.
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You re a process guy, and I know that.
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I like that.
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Yeah.
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We all have that feeling.
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You can check them out at outreach.io forward slash ASP to chat with them and receive a free copy of their new book on sales engagement.
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the sales engagement book, as we like to say.
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I think I mentioned this a few times ago, that I do have a very active client on outreach.io and I watch it work.
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And if you haven t tried it out, you have to go to the website.
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What is it again?
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Outreach.io slash ASP.
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SPEAKER_00
It s a really good, it s a really good solution.
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Great tool, just like any tool.
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You kind of kind of like, you know, take a look.
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But once you get rolling with it, man, it just it lets you not have to think.
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It s a really good deal.
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It s awesome.
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Anywho.
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OK.
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Topic today is all about data.
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And we live in a world that is wrought with data.
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Wrought.
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And you as a salesperson, I know, have lots of data at your fingertips.
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And your leaders, your CEOs and presidents and VPs of sales, are probably at some point and some degree telling you, we need to sell with data.
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Because everyone thinks that if they ve got the right data, they can prove the point and prove the case that whoever it is I m selling to would be an idiot to not buy from me.
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and when people leave us.
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I don t think the word s rot.
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It s not, is it?
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I thought about it.
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I was going to ask you that, and then you went with me.
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It s not rot.
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I did, but I didn t want to correct you until I checked it out.
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No, I liked it.
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I was going to ask you.
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Rot is an archaic past.
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Well, fraught.
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I was thinking fraught with data, but fraught doesn t sound right either.
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It s like we ve got a lot of it.
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What am I thinking of?
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There s a word, isn t there?
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See, this is what I get.
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I try to use, anytime I try to use a big word, not even big like syllable words, but just an obscure word, I screw up.
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Well, fraught with danger.
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It s filled with or likely to result in something undesirable, which it kind of is here.
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Kind of, a little bit.
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But I still don t think that s the word you were looking for.
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It s a misuse.
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Thanks for calling me on that.
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I appreciate that a lot.
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I was gentle with it.
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Well, you were gentle, and I know- I loved you through it.
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I loved you through it.
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The moment that that happened that you brain, you just couldn t stop because you were- No, I- Bill, if you can t see, he was sort of right to his phone.
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He s like, wait a second.
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I totally checked out.
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I don t know what you said.
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Okay, back to the topic.
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That are all about the data.
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I want you to listen loud and clear, because we re going to talk today about our opinions of what data is and what role it plays in the sales process.
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Because I see people try to sell with it up front and prove a case point, prove a point, prove the case, all that jazz.
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Then if you re in account management or client success and your customers leave, you try to save them back with data, prove the point that they should stay, and all this jazz.
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And so we ve got some opinions on that.
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And then we re going to tell you how to think about it, and then also maybe what to do about it and say about it.
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Well, I ve got a thought as you started the premise of this, and that is, it does seem like we use data to prove our value, to prove our worth as a solution.
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And it seems like that very idea of trying to prove something is a reason not to do it the way we ve been taught to use data.
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In other words, if I m here to prove to you, Mr. Client, that I am the obvious best solution and you d be a fool to go elsewhere, well, what kind of resistance does that create?
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Right.
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So it s a whole idea of proving.
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And so I just want to tip my hand a little bit to what I was going to talk about, which is that, what do we use data for?
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Typically, it s not to
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form, it s to prove.
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Yes, always, always.
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And see, that s just right there.
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You re sort of dead.
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Your energy is dead on arrival if you show up with the energy to prove a point.
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People resist that.
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And then what they do is they try to poke holes in your data.
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My experience has been just about any data point can be misproven.
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Is that right?
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Screwing up, misproven?
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Disproven?
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No, disproven or misproven?
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Fraught with disproven?
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I don t know, fraught with disproven.
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Disprovability?
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Man, I am just not.
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I m going to stay, you know, back and forth.
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Stay with words you know, Brian.
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I m going to stay in the second grade sight words.
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That s right.
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Be, an, and, than, though.
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If it s not in Jane loves her puppy.
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Can I say my opinion on data?
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Because I ve been kind of crazy about this the last couple weeks.
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Here s the thing.
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All data is subjective.
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All data is subjective.
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And everyone likes to think that data is hard concrete and free of opinion.
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And that s just completely wrong.
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All data has to be interpreted by the person who s going to use it to make a decision.
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And that interpretation is subjective.
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And so I can give you any data point in the world.
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I can throw out any number, 97, 110, 4.2 times.
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Any data point I can give you that s an objective number is only as good as the person who sees it and goes, that s good or bad.
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All data is subjective.
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And if you don t believe that, it s just wrong.
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It just doesn t make any sense otherwise.
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You re a stupid head.
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I wasn t going to say that, but okie dokie.
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So that s my first premise, is that if you are selling with data, or you are trying to save a client with data, or prove a point with data, the only thing that matters is the subjective opinion of the customer, of yours and theirs, both of yours, I should say.
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You and them.
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And them, correct.
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Yeah, but you have to understand this is a subjective opinion and subjective interpretation of the data that you re looking at.
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So again, if you re looking at conversions, we hear this all the time.
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What s your conversion rate?
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Or if I hear your click-through rate, or all sorts of things that we still have.
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Closing rate.
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Closing rate, all that stuff.
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If I said your closing rate is 28%, it s going to be all over the board.
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Some people are going to think that sucks, and some are going to think it s awesome.
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And some are going to go, yeah, it s about right.
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It s about average.
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So that s the first premise for me, is that all data is subjective, and we ve got to start there.
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OK, so I m going to walk back here a little bit and say that we ve been taught from the time we got into sales that buying is both emotional and intellectual.
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Correct.
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And we used to say that buying is 70% emotional and 30% intellectual.
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And I don t know.
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Who knows?
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I don t know how you calculate that even.
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That s more data that I m not sure.
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That s exactly right.
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I m not sure where it comes from.
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But let s just say that it s both.
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Yes.
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Let s say that a customer has an emotional urging to buy something or not to buy something, and they have an intellectual backup plan that kind of supports their decision to buy or not to buy.
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So I may love your software, and I just think it s gonna be cool as hell, and there s an 80% conversion rate, and so I ll go in and tell my CFO, this thing is good, but look at the conversion rate, it s 80%.
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But really, I m just using that to support my desire.
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you re the internal person now who s buying is now justifying their decision.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Back, back to the thing because they don t feel comfortable saying, I just like this.
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This is cool.
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Correct.
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Um, so, so let s say that, uh, buying or selling.
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So if buying is half emotional and half intellectual, then selling should follow the same, should be congruent with that.
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Does that work?
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Yes.
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Um, and so,
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Let s we re not saying that data is bad to introduce into the process somewhere But when it becomes the focal point and it s all you got And and I do think you re right.
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I think that You know, I was pre-show we were talking about why is this well data is so much easier to find and harvest and and architect and and
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You know suck out of the system.
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It s so much easier now than it was 20 years ago.
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Yes, so therefore Because something is easier to get we tend to proliferate in it and we like it and it it really makes us feel good You know what?
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I can help them go from 20% close rate to 40% close rate helps us feel good about our value and
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Yes.
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So we re not saying discontinue it at all.
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We re just saying that make sure that it s in the context of the fact that buyers still make decisions emotionally.
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They do.
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And we have to, as salespeople, I think the lesson here is when you are starting to get supporting data in slide decks and stuff, and you re in your PowerPoint presentation, all this jazz, that you have to balance the information that s in there
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with emotional stuff, opinions, and subjective stuff, and not just a bunch of data.
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Because people will also sense, when all they have is intellectual stuff, that they ll sense that persuasion thing going on, and they ll resist what you re saying.
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And you just miss the boat.
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I mean, we had our friend Brian Gray on back at the end of last year, and he talks about this.
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This is what he talks about in winning the buyer s brain, is that you ve got to win that emotional side of the brain, let them justify it, like you said earlier, with some of the data.
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Yeah, so do we have any tips?
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Do we have any suggestions?
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Let s say we have a listener who s in sales, and his or her company has been going down this data path, and they get harmed.
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I have a client in the medical profession, and they get a lot of that data.
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They get it thrown at them, and it feels to them like, well, somebody knows better.
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If they say this data is good, then maybe I need to use it.
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So what kind of suggestions?
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I ve got one or two here.
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would you have for a sales professional who s a listener and is getting inundated with data that they re being suggested to use it with clients or prospects?
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Yeah.
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We ve got a couple of language things.
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The first one is you need to contextualize all database conversations.
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And I think the way to contextualize them is to state some of the things that Bill and I are talking about right now on the podcast, which is
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Look, I m going to show you some data.
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And when you see it, everyone interprets data differently.
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We re going to show you some numbers.
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And then we re going to have an opinion.
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You re going to have an opinion.
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We ll share our opinion.
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You share yours with us.
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And we ll kind of see how that feels to you and feels to us.
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When you re using language like that, when I say how that feels to you, feels to me, that invites that kind of emotional side of the data interpretation.
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So you need to contextualize it.
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You can t just flip the page or talk about, well, our performance rates are in the 97.2 percentile.
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You can t just say that because I m going to go, OK, well, what the hell does that mean?
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How does that help me and make my life better and that sort of thing?
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So you ve got to contextualize the conversation first.
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That s good.
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I had that as my number one, too.
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Oh, well, looky there.
1
SPEAKER_00
We didn t even compare notes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, plus there s this whole thing going on now with we re not real trusting of politicians.
1
SPEAKER_00
We re not trusting of institutions.
1
SPEAKER_00
We re not trusting of brands because brands of course are gonna say that their rate is ninety seven point two percent Yeah, why wouldn t they they re not gonna say they ever make a mistake, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I think people generally are distrusting when a number comes out of nowhere and you don t contextualize it Yes that
1
SPEAKER_00
And you don t position it as, look, these are our numbers.
1
SPEAKER_00
We can t promise the same result.
1
SPEAKER_00
But let me tell you how we got there and why we think it s important.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think if you position it that way, then it becomes easier to handle and to consume.
1
SPEAKER_01
No doubt.
1
SPEAKER_01
That was my first one.
1
SPEAKER_00
All right, go ahead.
1
SPEAKER_00
You go ahead, second one.
1
SPEAKER_01
OK, so second one kind of follows suit with that is that once I then look at some data, interpret it, and have a feeling conversation about it and some interpretation, I need to make sure that I tie whatever data that I m looking at to my buyer s emotional motive.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so if the performance rate of my software tool goes from 95% to 97%, I ve got to make sure I connect that.
1
SPEAKER_01
I would call that a bridge statement.
1
SPEAKER_01
I ve got to have some bridge statement that says, here s what that means for you personally.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so then you re looking at, OK, how much time is someone spending on something?
1
SPEAKER_01
Or what s the slowdown rate?
1
SPEAKER_01
Or is it bogging down a system?
1
SPEAKER_01
Or you re spending an extra person, an extra eight hours a day fixing something because the rate s too low.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I think you have to tie it to an emotional motive.
1
SPEAKER_01
So whatever data you re showing, you have to say, here s how that makes life better for you.
1
SPEAKER_01
Here s what that number means to you personally.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think it s really important to do that.
1
SPEAKER_01
I call that when I m teaching sometimes a bridge statement.
1
SPEAKER_01
I ve got to go from the data and bridge it into their emotional, their head, heart, and soul.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I like that.
1
SPEAKER_00
I like that.
1
SPEAKER_00
Bridge.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I wonder, as you re talking, I wonder if,
1
SPEAKER_00
If the use of data, not all the time, but sometimes, is a compensating factor for poor salesmanship.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, my gosh.
1
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_01
There s no doubt in my mind for the inability, because everyone feels so safe.
1
SPEAKER_01
sharing data because there s no opinion and there s no art to it.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I feel safe the whole time.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
It kind of takes myself out of it, too.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s like, well, the data showed it.
1
SPEAKER_00
He just didn t buy the data.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s not my problem.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s the data s problem.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
What s funny, too, is one of my clients this morning in class were talking about this subject.
1
SPEAKER_01
And they have this, let s call it a conversion rate number, that they like to see up around 1% to 1.5%.
2
SPEAKER_01
conversion rate.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is online?
2
SPEAKER_01
This is like in a software tool.
2
SPEAKER_01
This one customer of theirs had 0.22, which is awful in my client s world.
2
SPEAKER_01
And he was going to make this call, and he was dreading it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so he said to the guy, well, here, we re going to 0.22.
2
SPEAKER_01
The guy s like, well, that s great.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, things are going great.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re going to watch one of these.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it was 0.12 before you came along.
2
SPEAKER_01
But the customer, the point is, it was misinterpreted the other direction, where we thought it was bad, and the customer thought it was good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Back to the opinion.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s good.
2
SPEAKER_00
All right, my second one here is
2
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of along the lines of the first one, which is how you re positioning it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think the problem a lot of times with how we use data is we make the other person feel not OK.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or we make them feel less than, not only because they have chosen, obviously, they ve made a foolish choice in the past to buy from company X, and now you re coming in and
2
SPEAKER_00
and showing all the warts of Company X and how they re fools now, and you re the only solution that they should go with because the data proves that.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I think there s also that not-okayness about just the numbers.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because if you re really well-versed in the numbers, you can start throwing around numbers, and people are lost.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
A lot of people who aren t numbers-oriented get really lost when you said, like if I start explaining
2
SPEAKER_00
you know, the meters to inches conversion.
2
SPEAKER_00
I say, well, 39.5, but it s one point.
2
SPEAKER_00
So 1.3 meters is equal to the same as a foot.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you re like, what the hell are you talking about?
2
SPEAKER_00
So I think it s easy with data to make someone feel not OK.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you know what?
2
SPEAKER_00
They re never, ever going to say, Brian, you just made me feel like a crap head.
2
SPEAKER_00
You just made me feel bad about myself.
2
SPEAKER_00
What they re going to say, of course, is, hey, thanks, Brian, for coming in.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, we ll let you know.
2
SPEAKER_00
It all looks good here.
2
SPEAKER_01
And when you show a data slide to that point, and it s in that kind of moderately complicated, and you kind of walk through it, and you re saying your thing, yeah, so this, and so we re at averages at 1.6.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if we convert that, we re at, so our average is about three times national, which is 3.2.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you say that, and you say, does that make sense?
2
SPEAKER_01
And they go, mm-hmm.
2
SPEAKER_01
Got any questions?
2
SPEAKER_00
No.
2
SPEAKER_00
Makes sense.
2
SPEAKER_00
Don t ever ask the question, does that make sense?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you have to ask it, you know it does not.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know it does not.
2
SPEAKER_00
No, that s good.
2
SPEAKER_00
All right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, anyway, that s a good topic.
2
SPEAKER_00
You have anything else on yours?
2
SPEAKER_01
No, no.
2
SPEAKER_01
I just think I want everyone to listen to what we re talking about here and really sit back and think of, OK, what kind of data points are being thrown at you?
2
SPEAKER_01
How are you using data to sell?
2
SPEAKER_01
And do you need to modify your approach to using data in your sales process?
2
SPEAKER_01
And my educated guess is lots and lots of you
2
SPEAKER_01
are listening going, oh my gosh, we do this, and we do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And all you do is moderate tweaks that we talked about to make it better for the customer.
2
SPEAKER_00
Just think 50-50, emotional, intellectual.
2
SPEAKER_00
And of course, data is intellectual.
2
SPEAKER_00
And just think, be judicious with it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Be judicious not just with how often you use it, but how you position it when you do use it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Just be mindful of that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think you ll be OK.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hey, if you want us to visit you, put an email, subject line, come see us in the subject line there.
2
SPEAKER_01
And we ll get that ball rolling if you re going to have a sales meeting.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if you haven t done so already, join our LinkedIn group.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re very active on LinkedIn.
2
SPEAKER_01
And we ve got an email list.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you go to this website, go to ultimatepregame.com, ultimatepregame.com.
2
SPEAKER_01
Give us your email.
2
SPEAKER_01
We ll actually send you a cool little gift.
2
SPEAKER_01
For a lot of new listeners, you may not have known that yet because we haven t talked about it a lot.
2
SPEAKER_01
But go to ultimatepregame.com if you haven t already.
2
SPEAKER_01
You ll get a free download.
2
SPEAKER_01
Just put your email list name in there.
2
SPEAKER_01
we ll get something right to you.
2
SPEAKER_01
And everything will get good.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s really good, I m telling you.
2
SPEAKER_00
All right, see you next time.