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Hi, it s Elise Lunen, host of Pulling the Thread.
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Today I m joined by Raquel Willis, author of The Risk It Takes to Bloom.
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Hi, it s Elise Lunen, host of Pulling the Thread.
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On this show, we pull apart the web in which we all live to understand who we are and why we re here.
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Pulling the Thread is about big questions.
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Why we do what we do, how we can understand our own experiences within a larger spiritual and historical context, the ways in which we might begin to understand ourselves and each other better, and what s required to heal ourselves and our world.
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I ll be joined in conversation by luminaries and wise elders, those who have laid tracks on their work and lives to help us bring meaning and understanding to a world that often feels chaotic and overwhelming.
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My hope is that these conversations spark moments of resonance and plant tiny seeds of awareness so that we might all collectively learn and grow.
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Well, the interesting thing is, I guess some of this came from writing the book too, but all of those versions of me live inside of me, right?
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Even the kid that was, you know, forced to kind of navigate the world as a boy and all of these different things.
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That kid is still inside of me, right?
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The teenager slash young adult who, you know, was gay, just like regular gay, born gay, born gay now, I wasn t born gay then, lives inside of me.
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That trans woman at the start of my adulthood who felt like she had to live up to so many of these ideals of womanhood, you know, she lives inside of me too.
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So says Raquel Willis, a Black trans activist who just released her debut memoir, The Risk It Takes to Bloom, on life and liberation.
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Her book traces her evolution from a childhood in Georgia through her multiple coming out experiences, or unfoldings, as the title of her book suggests.
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Willis has served as the Director of Communications for Ms.
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Foundation for Women, Executive Editor of Out Magazine, and as a National Organizer for Transgender Law Center.
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She also co-founded Transgender Week of Visibility and Action, and currently serves as an Executive Producer for iHeartMedia s Outspoken and the President of the Solutions, Not Punishments Collaboratives Executive Board.
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She s also a WNBA Social Justice Council member.
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Our conversation today, though, isn t really about all of these accolades.
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It is, to quote her, more existential.
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We explore whether our souls are gendered, what it means to perform or play with our femininity, and why sexual violence against women and girls affects us all.
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Let s turn to our conversation now.
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Well, congratulations.
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Writing a book is, as you ve experienced, quite an undertaking.
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And then writing a book about your own life is extra hard, I think I can safely say.
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And you had a really beautiful moment in your introduction where you write, that guidance sparked a grueling and therapeutic writing experience that required extending much more grace to myself and others.
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This process gave me permission to be angry, messy, solemn, unresolved, unrighteous, and unsure.
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It encouraged me to speak and write even when I didn t have the most flawless take.
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In fact, throughout this memoir, there are times when all I can do is ask questions with the hope that answers will find me at some other time.
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That seems accurate.
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How do you feel?
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Will you take us to where you are in this moment in time, how your life or thinking has changed, if at all, and what this experience has been like for you?
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Yes.
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Oh, wow.
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Well, thank you so much for speaking with me.
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In this moment and in this time, I guess, and in this part of the process, I m in a space of immense gratitude.
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that I even had the space to try and make sense of my life, my coming into my identity as a black trans woman, my coming into my career as a journalist and storyteller and also an activist.
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And I think the piece about grace is so real, like, one of the biggest conclusions for me, or assessments I should say about myself is like, girl, you ve been carrying around so much anxiety and in some ways I think
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insecurity and shame, and this was just kind of the perfect time to kind of shatter all of that.
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You know, so it s so interesting that the book, The Risk It Takes to Bloom, is a memoir that takes the reader through these different moments where
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I ve shattered expectations.
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And yet, I think the conclusion at the end for me is that is an ongoing endeavor.
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It s not a one and done kind of situation.
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Just because the book ends where it ends doesn t mean that the work ends.
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Actually, the work continues, just in a different context.
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So that s kind of where I am right now.
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It was a really interesting read, too, because I love memoirs where it s story and it s cultural criticism, it s historical context, and then it s pathos.
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And the pain in here is very real, even though it s in some ways
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Not the most acute note, I would say, but this idea of, you know, you write, I think I hated the latter the most.
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The one who reminded me that girls like me could only be loved in the dark.
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Every experience became an experiment.
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And eventually I stopped putting myself and my identity front and center.
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And then you talk about also how you felt immunity from other Black women who were being killed.
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But throughout the most painful part, and tell me if this is an accurate read, is
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Can we just have some safety and security?
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Just sort of this basic, can we not die?
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That seemed to me to be the most resounding note.
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I m assuming that s still happening, right?
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Absolutely.
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I mean, in the last month or so, there s been three murders, two of Black trans women, one of a Black gender nonconforming person in the United States.
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you know, unfortunately, those tallies increase, which feels, you know, kind of a reductive way to put it.
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But I think that is kind of what happens.
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You know, I think these deaths kind of stack up.
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And, you know, it s so interesting, I think, to be on this side, of course, witnessing everything that s happening in Palestine and Gaza, of course, and in Israel.
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It s one of those interesting things and I ve talked with some friends about it, you know, as someone who has done grassroots organizing in the context of the Movement for Black Lives, and specifically around violence that trans women of color face and black trans women face.
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It s rare, I think, domestically, like as someone living in the United States who is Black, to be on the other side of witnessing other people suffering in a particular way.
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And so I think this moment is an eye opener for a lot of folks who death maybe isn t so on the surface.
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which is, again, such a weird thing to think about.
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But I guess the other thing that kind of came up for me in writing as well, and so that particular chapter about desire and validation, you know, one of the things that
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We hear a lot about women, about Black people, people of color, even right now, right?
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Thinking about media discourse on Palestinian lives and, you know, and the way that we kind of have some people who put certain lives on certain pedestals and some people who don t or put others on a different pedestal.
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That is the dynamic that was happening.
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around the discussion for Black trans women who were murdered, you know, and that still happens, particularly in this, like, 2014-2015 period, which is where that particular chapter takes place.
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There was a lot of, well, what was she doing?
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You know, well, did she disclose that she was trans?
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If she s keeping it a secret, then yeah, of course, she should essentially expect to experience violence, discrimination.
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hatred and on just to double click on that.
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And that s because a lot of these.
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murders are theoretically like an intimate context where someone flips out.
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Not always, but is that primary context?
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Often, yes.
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I mean, it is domestic violence situation or an intimate partner violence dynamic.
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Or, I mean, even just thinking about street harassment that often stems from being sexualized.
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on the street and then experiencing violence.
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So for instance, like Alon Nettles, who I mentioned in the book, who was a black trans woman who essentially was catcalled in the streets of New York City, was
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attacked by this man who kind of read her as trans after there was kind of a discussion.
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So I guess in all of that, what I want to say is that we re all on a quest to be seen, to be validated, to find love and sometimes lust.
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And we shouldn t lock people out of those experiences.
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And I think that s often what happens when we talk about Black trans women in our love lives and our sex lives.
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Well, and it relates, I think, to the experience of every single woman in the sense that in the realm of sex and sexuality, you re responsible for whatever happens to you based on what you re wearing, how much are you drinking, where were you, what happened?
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You know, up and down our society, there s an alignment between
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girls and women being harmed and simultaneously blamed.
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And it obviously has different dimensions, but it s a problem of toxic masculinity, violence, like whatever is so scary about the idea to these men, you know, whatever their own shame that is inspired.
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And women will not be safe.
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No woman will really be safe until we
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And I have this conversation a lot.
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I have boys, I don t have girls, but in the way that culturally, and you live this very acutely, that you can perform the difference between being sexual and sexy and the performance of sexuality, and then what happens to you, right?
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There s such attacks.
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And we re not looking at the right, we re not identifying the right issue here, right?
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It s always about the girls and the women and never about the wider culture that allows this, right?
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Or won t look at it.
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Yeah, I mean, it definitely is a cultural thing.
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I mean, we saw it with Amber Heard, right?
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You know, we saw it with
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Chanel Miller.
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Yeah.
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Discussions around Brett Kavanaugh and on and on, you know, there s a way that our society just puts all of the ire.
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I mean, even though none of the ire really should be falling at women s feet in these discussions, but putting that ire on to the woman in question.
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And that felt important to name, because especially when we have these discussions, and I also talk about in another chapter, you know, trans exclusionary radical feminists are, you know, the first ones to be like, well, you don t experience misogyny in this way.
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And it s like, look, girl.
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Sure, I don t have every experience that you have had.
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Just like every woman doesn t share the exact same experience.
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Every cis woman doesn t share the exact same experience.
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But to tell me that I have not experienced misogyny is gross.
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It s a gross kind of assumption.
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It felt important to name that I am a trans woman who has experienced being violated, you know, multiple times throughout my life.
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I mean, that was also a dynamic.
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I had to
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discuss.
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And I ve experienced being violated, you know, as a trans woman who has had bottom surgery, as a trans woman who hasn t had bottom surgery, as someone moving through the world, you know, as a gay boy, and then even younger as a kid who, you know, is called so many things without maybe understanding what all those labels are.
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I m Rachel Martin.
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After hosting Morning Edition for years, I know that the news can wear you down.
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So we made a new podcast called Wildcard, where a special deck of cards and a whole bunch of fascinating guests help us sort out what makes life meaningful.
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Join me on Wildcard, wherever you get your podcasts, only from NPR.
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Do trans men experience violence?
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I m sure it happens to some, but is it at the same rates?
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And is it from men or women?
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I m assuming men.
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I would not be able to tell you the rate, but I mean, it s high across the board for trans folks.
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There is an interesting story that I think a lot of people should know of a trans man named Kai Peterson, black trans man in Georgia who was sexually assaulted and raped
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who in self-defense killed his attacker or his rapist and was in jail for a long time.
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He actually was released just a few years ago, I believe during the pandemic.
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So, you know, definitely sexual assault happens to trans men for sure, trans masculine folks.
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And I actually think that we need to be having more conversations around sexual violence, right?
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I mean, you know, there s also a discussion that we don t have enough around, you know, of course, men who also experience sexual violence, right?
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And boys who experience it.
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Black boys, right?
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You know, especially thinking about that conversation that on the other side, I ll hear from people who are invested in this idea of black male studies, which I think has its place, but I think there are a lot of toxic people who kind of do the whole men s rights activist shtick.
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but they ll often say we don t talk enough about Black men and boys who experience sexual violence.
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And I think that s real.
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Now how they go about trying to have that conversation, I m not down for, but that conversation does need to be had.
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Yeah, I want to talk to you about the codes of femininity, and you talk about how femininity is demonized.
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And one of the questions that I had throughout is, and I think about this a lot as like, not androgynous woman, well, now I have red nail polish, but I used to get misgendered a fair amount, tall, short hair.
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It s not harassment, it s always people looking at me quickly.
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So I don t experience it, and it doesn t bother me.
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But I don t have to protect or like project my femininity, right?
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Like they ve never had that experience.
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And this started when I was a kid, I always had short hair, etc.
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So when you think about what you want the world to look like,
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How much energy do you need to put towards passing and versus just, is it joyful?
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I spent a lot of time in the beauty industry.
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I know how like joyful, fun, self-expressive, creative it can be, but what do you want for all of us?
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Like, what do you think about the codes of femininity?
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Oh, the codes of femininity.
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I guess for me, when I think about the world that I envision,
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It s really that we ll be able to have the freedom to explore our aesthetic, you know, without judgment and without potentially putting more of a target on ourselves.
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For me, I come from strong women who are hyper-feminine.
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Honey, you know, like, that s her Black femininity.
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I come from that.
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You know, I talk about my grandma and she was like, the epitome of like, a debutante.
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You know, she had this like, lilt in her voice and she d be like, my name is Ines.
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And it came out at specific times.
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We d be at the grocery store.
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She d be at the bank.
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And inevitably, because she was a gorgeous, stunning woman, she reminded me of Lena Horne.
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She would say something to her.
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And then she d put on that affectation.
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And that gave her life.
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And so I guess to circle back to the conversation around passing,
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I guess I m in a space in my life that is a bit farther or further
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removed from certain points in the book where I talk about my early career and how essential that felt for safety and survival and just navigation.
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I don t wear makeup all the time.
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I mean, I know I got a little face on now, but I m at a point in my life where I don t actually wear makeup every day.
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And it s so freeing.
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That really came about during the pandemic.
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That was the first time where
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Interestingly, while we were putting masks on, I think certain masks kind of fell away from me.
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And I was able to just kind of go about my day and re-encounter this essence.
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And so, you know, the interesting thing about these caricatures that we hear about
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trans women that we re always serving hyper femininity, that is a fallacy.
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There are masculine expression trans women, you know, there are butch trans women, there are tomboy trans women.
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Also,
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There are many of us who are not invested in some of these beauty standards, you know, who want to subvert gender in a particular way.
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And I think that that s beautiful.
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So I hope people understand that my story is just my story.
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Right.
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And I m also telling a story about my experiences at certain points in my life.
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So I m not the exact same person that I was.
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say, in 2013 when I was graduating from college and trying to figure out, OK, well, what does a professional woman have to do?
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Which I also don t think is just a trans thing.
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I think everyone kind of deals with some of that.
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Certainly.
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I know we re maybe not there, but it feels like we re close on the sexuality binary of getting to the place where it s like, why are we talking about this?
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And it s not that interesting.
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And it s actually strange.
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Like, I just don t care.
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And I understand why.
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And I want to talk to you about sort of why gender is so culturally dominant and shaping.
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I recognize that.
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I wrote a whole book about it.
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But to that end also, I m like, it s not that interesting.
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I just don t think that my gender is that
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And I, as someone who again experiences, I wish that these terms weren t gender, but like a lot of masculine energy and like I try to be more in my feminine and I experience myself as both, you know, which I think is maybe an accurate description for a lot of people.
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I don t know.
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As someone who has redefined it for yourself and has an experience of claiming it, what does that feel like?
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Oh, that s so interesting.
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Well, the interesting thing is, I guess some of this came from writing the book too, but all of those versions of me live inside of me, right?
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Even the kid that was, you know, forced to kind of navigate the world as a boy and all of these different things.
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that kid is still inside of me, right?
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The teenager slash young adult who, you know, was gay, just like regular gay, born gay, born gay now, I wasn t born gay then, was inside of me.
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That trans woman at the start of my adulthood who felt like she had to live up to so many of these
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ideals of womanhood.
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You know, she lives inside of me too.
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So it s interesting.
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I think how I ve kind of come to it is that I understand my non-binary fam so much, right?
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I understand my genderqueer fam and gender non-conforming fam.
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I think we re all gender non-conforming in some way because we ll never live up to these ideals of womanhood and femininity and manhood and masculinity.
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But I think for me,
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my womanhood and how I express myself, which people consider to be super feminine.
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Maybe I ll get a power film sometime.
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I don t know if I have to cut my hair or that, but the most comfortable affirming way for me to move through the world right now, that could change.
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It s not ruled out to me.
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I would not be surprised, you know, years down the road if I got to a point where I was like, actually, it s time for something, you know, different, or it just becomes more comfortable.
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And I mean that more so in terms of the expression piece, because I think that tends to be more malleable.
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I don t mean that so much about my identity, so to speak, as a woman.
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I feel fixed in that, but I think that expression piece changes.
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I mean, when I think about my mom, you know, my mom in the nineties had her like power suits on with like the big old shoulder pads and big curled hair.
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She was always having her hair curled, full face of makeup.
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My mom s hair was relaxed too, right?
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Like that was a beauty standard for a lot of black women then.
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Her hair is natural now.
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She does not chemically process it.
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She does some color.
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Her hair is also shorter.
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And she s not wearing her power suits, right?
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Because she s retired.
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And so her expression is different.
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So I use her as an example because I think
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We all go through that.
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I think there s such curiosity about trans people, but honestly, maybe we re just having a slightly more sparkly experience that everyone else is also having.
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It s really interesting to me just in the context of a clearer definition.
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I know you grew up Catholic, and as far as I could tell from the memoir, it seems like you are not a practicing religious person or Catholic.
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Even.
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a certified, I was confirmed, I was baptized, I can do communion.
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You re there.
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I don t know if you have ever read any of the Gnostic Gospels or gone into any translations of inerrant texts because they re really gender bending, which is fascinating to me.
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And so I guess my question is too, like, and maybe this language is too religious, but I feel like Jesus said that he had a masculine form and a
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female soul.
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Do you feel like your soul has a gender?
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Do I feel like my soul has a gender?
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I guess no.
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Yeah, I don t know.
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I mean, I m trying to think like, you know, I feel like soul transcends so much of these kind of identities.
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I agree.
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I mean, think about race and ethnicity and, you know, I think it s beyond that.
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you know, I think is beyond those things.
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Because we know that these categories are circumstantial, you know, and contextual, right?
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I love being in conversation with one of my friends, Gina Rosero, who, you know, talks about indigenous Filipino culture and the ways that trans identities have been regarded as sacred in that culture.
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Right.
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Or I think about Janet Mock, you know, talking about gender nonconformity in Hawaii.
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Right.
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We ve had some powerful trans leaders discussing just how tenuous these categories can be.
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So, yeah, I mean, I know that this configuration is just
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because of where I am and, you know, my environment and what I ve had access to.
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I think it s important for us to be humble about our identities.
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I think especially, you know, the funny thing in queer and trans community, I think about the opportunity that we have to be humble because
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the labels that, for instance, millennials use are not, you know, the labels necessarily that the generations right before us used, right?
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So when I think about being a transgender woman, you know, I would have been considered transsexual in the 90s, right?
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And there are still, of course, I have good Judis who consider themselves transsexuals, right?
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And who knows?
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I mean, I ve had conversations with people that s like, if I had come to understanding my gender, even just a few years later, I don t know.
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Would I have conceptualized myself or understood myself as non-binary?
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I don t know.
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And would I have felt like a comfortable affirming space?
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So your activism feels to me like a necessity, right?
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This in the absence of safety and security and an assurance of a life, right?
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Are you looking forward to the day when you can pass the baton and do, I don t know, be something else?
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Or is this really who you feel like you are?
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I love how existential this is.
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If I needed you to help me when I was brainstorming the memoir, I would have come to some conclusion sooner.
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You know where to find me.
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This is me.
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You know, again, I think I have a lot of humility around these labels, you know, the label
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of activists, the label of community organizer, writer, storyteller, cultural organizer, executive producer, podcaster, author now, you know, the latest of the identities.
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They re just titles, you know?
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You wear them lightly.
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I wear them lightly because, again, they are tools for people to kind of have
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an entry point in how they can engage with me.
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Same thing with like gender, right?
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You know, I m a woman because that is the space that makes the most sense in terms of affirmation for me.
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And in some ways in terms of legibility for me to navigate the world, to live in my purpose, which is to be a storyteller, which is to be
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a social justice person, you know, a person with a big heart.
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I ve been saying that a lot lately, or someone who believes in liberation.
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So I think whatever I do, there will always be a commitment to collective liberation.
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I think I m just hardwired that way.
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So much of that comes from early life, which I detail in the book.
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I don t know if it s because I m an overthinker by nature.
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I sometimes feel like I m overanalyzing things or, you know, I guess the cute way to say it is that I m a curious person and I want to know why people are the way they are.
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I was like that as a child.
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And I think I was present very early and
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aware, you know, I talk about in one point in the book about systems of oppression and of course I didn t know they were systems of oppression or the names for like the patriarchy or heterosexism or cissexism, all of this stuff.
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I knew I felt restricted.
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I knew I felt like I was like a spy contorting myself like through the laser lights of oppression.
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Like that s what it felt like.
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It was like nothing fit.
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And I wanted to be able to say and articulate it, but you know, I didn t have the tools or the language.
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I just kind of had to hold my anguish and anxiety.
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close until I got to a point to understand what was going on.
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So I think I ve always been that way in terms of like curious how to create or be a part of creating a world where less people feel silenced and less people feel isolation.
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You write a bit about studying messaging and political strategy.
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Like, you write about how at that point, and probably still to this day, there s little data on what worked for trans communities.
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And then when you gave your speech, you write, you know, I might get in some trouble for saying this.
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This is, I think, at the Brooklyn Museum, right?
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And yes, the legislation matters, but white queer folks get to worry about legislation while black queer folk are worrying about our lives.
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Has that changed?
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What needs to happen in your mind?
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And how can we all be better allies?
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I think some ways it has changed.
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And in some ways, it hasn t.
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So I think our landscape is a little different.
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Of course, at that time in 2020, there had been, you know, attempts to push bathroom bills prior to that, at least starting at 2016, thinking about HB 2 in North Carolina.
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But
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You know, by 2021, that was when we started to see this increasing amount of anti-LGBTQ plus legislation.
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And so that was when we started to see the
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seeds of our drag family being put on the chopping block.
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We started to see some mentions of, you know, potentially people going back to revisit marriage equality, you know.
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And then, of course, we ve seen trans people and particularly trans youth
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trans girls having their rights restricted in different ways, right?
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I do think that often privilege affords people space to think about these, I don t want to say higher level societal considerations.
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But it does afford you the space to think about something like legislation.
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Right.
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When you re not worrying about your life.
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Yes.
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When you re not worrying about your life.
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When I think about.
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the fact that there are black trans women who have to do GoFundMes just to raise funds for like their bills and their everyday expenses for food.
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I have black trans sisters, you know, who are living in shelters, right?
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Trying to find housing, you know, and dealing of course, with transphobia, even in trans misogyny, even in that context often.
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And so when you re dealing with
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having your day-to-day needs being fulfilled, yeah, this idea of like legislation feels far off, I think, for a lot of folks.
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And that makes sense, right?
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And so often the folks who have the privilege are white or class privileged, which is my case, or
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have some kind of access that gives them the space.
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And so that can be a thing that they have the space to think about.
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So I think that it s important for us to understand that the stakes are different.
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And so even when we re thinking about attacks on queer and trans people, we have to be understanding that
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In general, things are still stratified by these other systems of oppression.
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White supremacy.
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There s a reason why historically most of the leaders of the large nonprofits focused on LGBTQ issues have been white, and particularly white men.
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Things have shifted, you know, in the last several years a bit, but that s still a thing.
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There s a reason why, despite trans people being on everybody s lips and in their, you know, line items and their budgets and, you know, mentions in their speeches, that overwhelmingly trans people have not been afforded the space or the opportunity to be in some of the highest leadership positions, particularly in LGBTQ plus nonprofits.
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Go figure.
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And some of that has been by design.
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I mean, we don t talk about early gay lobbying in this country, particularly in the 70s.
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You know, thinking about someone like this figure named Steve N. Dean, who was really one of the architects of what became the Human Rights Campaign.
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He was a pioneer of gay lobbying.
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Started in Minnesota.
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before taking his efforts national but he made it a point to court what he considered to be more palatable folks within our community which were not the freaks which he considered to be the drag queens and transvestites and you know of course he at that point probably couldn t say that that probably was a vision that mostly included white
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cis men, but that s also a dynamic, right?
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Even early lesbians and queer women were kind of locked out of leadership in the kind of immediate post Stonewall era.
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So a lot of this is by design.
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And so I know that that statement on the surface sounds reductive, but it s coming from a place of me being a black trans woman who knows
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the odds that have been stacked against us.
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And so I hope that doesn t shut people s curiosity down.
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I hope it encourages them to dig a little deeper.
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We have to figure out how to not allow external forces to our community pit us against each other.
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We got to move out of the scarcity idea that if this group gets this platform, then that means I don t have it.
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Or, you know, we re focusing on trans people then that means okay well what happens to the cis gay people, we ve got to figure out how to work together because those fissures I was talking about that started decades ago are the same ones that have become huge rifts
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that people like the TERFs have been able to exploit, and the Christian conservative right have been able to exploit, and on and on.
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It s important for us to get a handle on that sooner rather than later, and leave it for the next generations to have to clean
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Yeah, and for women to really work on sexual violence together.
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And men.
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Let s get men involved too.
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We need their help there, unfortunately.
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I wish we could just take care of it ourselves, but it s not going to happen.
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We re all in it together.
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Same thing as patriarchy.
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Like it s not going to happen without getting men and masculine folks on board and those who are invested.
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You know, I think they just often don t have the same elevation as their toxic counterparts.
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At the end of her book, The Risk It Takes to Bloom, Raquel writes the following paragraphs.
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It is beautiful to notice and discuss the nuances of the average cis woman s experience and the average trans woman s experience.
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However, it gets dangerous when we place all these requirements for one group of women to be valid versus another.
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Trans women experience discrimination and violence, depending on the situation or specific context, to a lesser or greater degree.
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This public discourse reminded me that even if I d had bottom surgery, I would still not be fully considered a woman by many.
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In fact, people might consider my medical gender transition as a desire to fulfill a patriarchal conception of womanhood.
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But honestly, this idea ignores that everyone, on some level, is seeking a life in which they are comfortable with their identity on their terms.
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Cis people have long opted for surgeries, breast and buttock augmentations, labiaplasties, rhinoplasties, and procedures, hair transplants, hormone replacement therapies, that are gender affirming and haven t been considered menacing for it.
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It s a really excellent point that I had not thought of before.
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If you liked today s episode, please rate and review and tell a friend.
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You can find show notes and full transcripts of the episodes at EliseLoonan.com.
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While there, please sign up for my sub stack.
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I send a short note every Wednesday about topics that are aligned with this show and a deeper dive most Sundays.
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Or follow me on Instagram at EliseLoonan.
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And finally, if you haven t already, please consider picking up a copy of my New York Times bestselling book, On Our Best Behavior, The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to be Good, available wherever you get your books.
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It s an exploration of how women have been conditioned for goodness, men for power, and all the ways we ve been programmed to police ourselves and each other according to these cultural ideas of what it is to be a good woman.
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I d also like to give a huge thank you to my sponsors who make this show possible.
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Please support them the way they support this podcast.
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This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studio.
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If you enjoyed this episode, please listen, rate, review, and follow Pulling the Thread.
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Available now for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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I want to give a shout out to Phil Svitek, Lauren Legrasso, Mary-Kate McDonough, Ali Brockman, and the entire Kedans13 team for producing these episodes, and to Valero Deval for my key art.
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Take care of yourselves.
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I ll see you next time.