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The Art of Charm is where ordinary guys become extraordinary men.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm, I m Jordan Harbinger.
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Looking forward to meeting you here at the Art of Charm.
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Today we re talking with Aldana Lewis-Fernandez.
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She is a 20...
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three-year military veteran and then spent, what, seven-plus years working with private corporations as well.
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So 30-plus years of leadership, contract management, negotiation experience, negotiating hundreds of millions of dollars in equipment.
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And she s going to teach us a little bit about, or a lot about, negotiation
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Today we re gonna talk about relationship building and confidence in the context of negotiation, how to use leverage to your advantage, questions to test the other side to make sure that you can get that leverage in the first place, and of course, what to do when you run into certain pitfalls of negotiation so you can get the best win for yourself.
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Oh, and I ve got producer Jason here this week to continually ask the questions that I don t think of in the moment.
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So enjoy this one with Eldona Lewis Fernandez.
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Tell us what you do in one sentence.
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I show people how to think like a negotiator, basically creating win-win results and understanding the pitfalls to avoid in negotiation in every area of their lives.
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Okay, perfect.
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And how did you learn these skills?
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I learned them kind of twofold.
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23 years in the Air Force as a contracts manager.
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My title was contracts specialist.
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And then once I retired from the military, I went to work for some defense contractors as a contracts negotiator, kind of on the other side of the table.
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So I have a
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well-rounded breadth of experience in contracts and negotiation.
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Great, and now, why is this stuff so important?
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Because obviously, we ve talked about negotiation before.
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People know you ve got to be able to hold your own, but is really, how often do you negotiate in your life, and can t we just get some quick...
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simple tricks off Google, what sort of skills do we really need to build?
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Or maybe a better question is, are the skills that most people build when they look to get better at negotiating actually the right skills?
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Well, we negotiate every day of our lives.
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I always say whether it s a multimillion dollar deal, how to get your kids to do their homework or where to meet for dinner, it s all negotiation.
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So oftentimes we view negotiation as this big daunting thing and it s a kind of a conflict, maybe the old school bullying negotiation or the big boardroom table.
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But when you think about
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you re going to agree to a lunch meeting or something at work or something in your business, all the discussions you have are basically negotiations.
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And to know how to communicate effectively using the right strategies to enable that to come to a win-win result where both sides win, those are skills that you can learn.
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Now that s interesting, because I think you re right.
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Most people think negotiation, put on a suit, you meet at a boardroom, your people come in with briefcases, their people come in with briefcases, dot, dot, dot, a deal is made, but it s all sort of like ninja, reading their eyebrows tactics, as opposed to, oh yeah, well, when I talk about this with my husband, this happens, or when my kids want this and I have to tell them that, it s that, but these are negotiations.
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This is what a real negotiation looks like.
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Yeah, it s all negotiate.
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I mean, the big boardroom thing actually does happen.
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It is one side of negotiation.
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But one of the things my kids, like my son, always wanted to stay out past curfew.
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So he was negotiating with me because I d have to go pick him up because he couldn t be out on the streets.
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And so he d be negotiating the time with me.
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That s a discussion and negotiation.
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And the end result is an agreement.
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That s all negotiation is.
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It s basically a technical term for discussions and conversations to reach an agreement.
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Right.
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Excellent.
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Okay.
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And what do you do now?
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You teach civilians these skills now?
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I teach everybody these skills.
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I teach entrepreneurs, I teach corporate people, I teach military people.
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They re great skills for, I really have a heart to help veterans since I am one.
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It s great skills to use in negotiating a salary or doing the job interview or negotiating a contract or that sale with that person or that group that you re wanting to get as a client.
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It applies in all areas.
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I train and speak and teach multiple different levels of people how to think like a negotiator.
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Excellent.
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And so what s the most rewarding just out of curiosity?
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The most rewarding is while I do a three day training and the most rewarding is even if I m just doing an hour talk and I see somebody grasp the concept and then they go out and they get a better deal for themselves and they hear about it.
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That s what s rewarding for me is to teach these people skills so they can actually improve the results in their life.
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So when you re dealing with civilians versus military, is there any difference between the negotiation tactics that a civilian would use versus a military personnel?
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Well, civilians have a little more leeway than military do.
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When I was in the government contracting arena, we had a lot more constraints that we had to operate within because of the Federal Acquisition Regulation, which is the governing reg for government contracting.
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So we were kind of constrained as to how far we could go with certain things and, of course, budget constraints and things like that.
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But the tactics work just the same.
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I mean, the things I learned in the military I use.
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These are strategies that I developed while negotiating both in the military and in the civilian sector.
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And they work across the board because people are people.
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Excellent, so geography, occupation, et cetera, doesn t really matter because the principles of persuasion or negotiation or whatever other skill set we re looking at are based on human thought patterns, human thought processes, and human psychology, not nothing else.
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So of course we all have those in common.
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Well, and that s true, but geography does matter in a sense that if you re negotiating with somebody from a different culture, you have to understand about doing business in that culture.
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I was deployed to the Middle East after 9-11, and I spent four months over there negotiating and purchasing things for the base.
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And their way of doing business is a lot different.
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I was stationed in England for four years.
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I did business in Germany, Spain, Tunisia, all kinds of different places.
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And the way they do business is a lot different, especially me as a woman.
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I had to take those factors into account.
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But like, for instance, the Middle East is more about relationship building.
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If you walked in and said, hey, I want to buy this, this and this, give it to me, let me go.
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They get highly offended.
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They want you to sit down, have some tea, have something to eat.
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That s all part of how they do business.
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And you have to understand that when you re going and dealing with a different culture.
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Interesting, so how was it different for you as a woman?
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I feel like my stereotype of the Middle East is you walk in there and they re like, I m not gonna talk to her, but I ll talk to the guy, I don t know.
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Well, I was in Qatar, as we called it, or Qatar, and they were maybe a little more progressive, so I dealt with a couple of sheiks, and I dealt with all types of different cultures from different countries,
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And because I had the power of the pen, they were quite happy to do business with me because I had my little pad of purchase orders and a guy with a bag of cash and my list and I d go place to place.
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And I knew because we d been trained on how to properly do business in those countries.
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And they were quite receptive to me.
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Maybe I believe some people in the military, women in the military that went into other Middle Eastern countries had to wear the covering.
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But in where I was, I didn t have to.
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So they were quite
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receptive to me and it was a great experience because I met so many different people from so many different cultures.
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Yeah.
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Did you find that doing business in those different cultures showed you actually the underlying commonalities?
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Because I find the more that I travel, the more I find that people are very, very similar and you start to sort of
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It s like language learning.
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You start to iron out, oh, okay, this type of thing is universal to human communication, this other thing is cultural, and then you can sort of digest, almost distill those into fundamentals that you can use back in your home country.
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Yeah, definitely, and one of the things that I always talk about is one of the most common mistakes people make, especially in the US, is not building relationships first, and I always use the example of my time in the Middle East,
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It s not about the quantity of the context, it s about the quality and really making that connection and finding maybe that affinity.
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There s that saying that goes, people who are like each other, like each other.
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And if you can really connect and find out what you have in common, it ll build that know, like and trust factor faster.
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And like we would spend 45 minutes
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to an hour talking in the Middle East before they would even ask me for my list.
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And then they d ask me for my list, hand it to their guy, and we d keep talking, and the price was based on that relationship and that trust factor.
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Interesting, that s kind of funny.
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So it s basically a very blatant version of if I like you, it s cheaper.
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Pretty much, pretty much, that s kind of how it worked.
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Excellent, so what tips do you have and what advice do you have for people who are wanting to learn this skill set?
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Because, again, the core of what we teach at The Art of Charm is about relationship development, relationship building, but it s not necessarily a very Western thing.
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In fact, a lot of times people look down on that.
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We ve all heard like, ah, well, it s all about who you know these days, and people say it with a little bit of stank on it.
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And what you re saying is actually
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This is how it is around not only most of the world, but this is how it actually operates in the US.
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Whether or not we want to put a little shellacking of everybody s equal and everybody s treated fairly and business is business, the little shellacking, the little veneer we might put on it, that s what I m looking for, it doesn t really matter.
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We still do business with people that we know and like.
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Yeah, definitely that there s a lot of truth to that.
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And, you know, we always want to go quick, quick, quick and get everything going.
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We re in this microwave society in the US where we want to get done now.
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We want to get done to her.
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You want everything because we re kind of trained that way.
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Look at technology and look at.
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how fast things are moving and we want our business to move that fast too.
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But if you take the time to build the relationship, I have relationships that I ve built with people maybe a year ago and they re just coming back around to me because I ve continued to build that relationship with them.
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They re like, you came to mind because we have this connection, this relationship, you d be perfect for this.
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And sometimes it doesn t happen so quick.
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You have to build those relationships and build that trust factor.
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And it does.
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It takes some time and people don t want to take the time.
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And I m sure you ve been to a networking event where people are running around harvesting business cards and and then you get on a bunch of people s lists and you don t even know if they re your right fit client.
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Right.
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Yeah, and it s something we ve always talked about.
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It s build your well before you re thirsty.
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Yeah, dig the well before you re thirsty.
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Exactly.
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It s the relationship building thing, I think, is the most important thing in any negotiation.
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Now, sometimes you have to just jump right into something when you re in a certain situation.
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But if you re going for the long term, especially if it s somebody you want to do business with, you want to make sure that you have a good connection and that you have the same kind of values and thought processes before you jump in and do business with them.
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What do we need to know or what do we need to work on if we re gonna build those relationships and we re gonna get good at negotiating?
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building relationships is just actually going out and doing it.
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But I always say the number one thing you need to be a good negotiator is confidence, a level of confidence in your negotiating skills.
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And oftentimes people, they hesitate to negotiate because, oh, this is a conflict or I don t know how to do this.
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But unfortunately, the only way you re going to get good at it is to actually do it.
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And I always recommend people go and hit a yard sale to train their negotiation skills.
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Okay.
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Yeah, that s actually great advice.
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Because out here in Los Angeles, every weekend, we re out at the yard sales and everybody loves to negotiate.
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And you have to totally have that skill because they don t even talk to you if you just want to offer what s on the table.
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Yeah, because nobody ever expects to get the price that they re asking for a yard sale.
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They re expecting you to come and haggle with them.
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That s just part of it.
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And really, if you feel hesitation towards it, like I always say, it s not a light switch kind of thing.
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You can t flip a light switch and be a great negotiator.
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You have to actually do it to get good at it.
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And so yeah, the yard sale idea is great, because the stakes are super low.
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Because even if you, quote unquote, lose that negotiation, you re probably out pocket change.
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And if you win, you start to get the hang of the skill set and start to be able to read where people are at, including yourself.
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Yeah, definitely.
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I mean, I created a little one of the training things I do is I actually have a yard sale that I do in my training, where people are actually negotiating for yard sale junk.
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I mean, even swap meets, swap meets are another great place or if you re buying something off of
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Craigslist or someplace like that where you re gonna go buy a piece of furniture or buy a car from somebody.
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You need to hone these skills and like you were saying, doing the yard sale thing is a low stakes kind of game where if you mess up, you kind of go away and you think, well, how could I have done that better?
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Let me go to another place and give it another go.
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You just keep doing it until you get good at it.
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And how do you use body language and nonverbal communication in negotiation?
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If you get good at kind of reading people, like you present as maybe an offer to somebody and see how they react.
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And if they kind of get tense or if their eyebrow raises or if they take a breath or whatever, you can read what the other person, oh gosh, maybe that s a little bit high or they re not liking that or whatever.
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Same thing with your body language.
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You don t want to show if it s not a good deal and you feel uncomfortable with it.
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You don t want to show that because if somebody else is good at reading body language, they ll pick it up pretty quick.
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kind of see where somebody is just based on how they are once you ve kind of presented your offer.
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Hey, Art of Charm listeners, I m excited to share a new podcast I ve been absolutely binging.
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Winning is an everyday mindset, and Craig Robinson and John Calipari are here to help.
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On Ways to Win podcast, Craig and Coach Cal use their on-court wisdom to solve your off-court problems.
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Now back to Aldana Luis Fernandez.
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Now, we talk a lot about building confidence and relationship development at The Art of Charm.
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I mean, we spent hundreds of hours literally discussing the nuances of that.
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So, if people are looking for that information and this is the first time you ve heard the show, definitely check out the starter kit at theartofcharm.com and go and look at some of the articles on that.
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Go to the toolbox, et cetera.
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What do you do, Aldana, to basically to prepare, to get ready for an upcoming negotiation, discussion, interview, or disagreement of some kind?
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Well, one of the strategies is to prepare in advance and you think about, okay, this is what I m maybe thinking about powerful questions to ask, things like that.
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But I work with my clients.
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I actually have a client who s coming up on a negotiation and we re going to do a mock negotiation where somebody else is going to play the part of the person he s going to be negotiating with.
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Do a mock negotiation, even for a job interview.
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If you re going for a job interview, do a mock interview.
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Do it before you actually walk into the actual interview or the actual negotiation because you ve already felt it kind of physically in your body.
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And once you feel that, you get a little more comfortable with it.
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When you go in for the real thing, you ve already kind of had an experience of what it s going to feel like.
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So it prepares you to be more confident when you walk into the real negotiation.
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How do we set that up without getting softballed by, like I feel like if I ask my friends, hey, put me through a mock interview or a mock negotiation, they re just gonna be, I remember my mock interviews in law school where like, why do you wanna work here?
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I just really like the company and I think the mission s interesting and I m really interested in the work.
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And they re like, oh, you did a great job.
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And I m like, that s not how a real interview goes.
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A real interview, especially a real negotiation, they re gonna be a lot tougher on you.
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They re gonna throw curveballs, they re gonna be better researched.
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I mean, how do we sort of make up for that?
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Yeah, you want to make sure that you have somebody that s going to give you genuine feedback.
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As a speaker, I m a member of a Toastmasters club, and I ask for the people to evaluate me who are going to give me genuine, real evaluation.
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The same thing, you want to make sure whoever s doing the mock negotiation, and sometimes it requires investing in a coach that will actually do that with you in order to really feel it and get the real experience, because you don t want to have somebody that s like
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you just said, oh yeah, that s good, yeah, you did a good job.
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You wanna make sure that you have somebody that s going to put you through the paces.
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Yeah, you can t really have your neighbor do it.
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You need somebody that s actually going to put you through the ringer so you get that kind of like stress induction.
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Exactly, yeah, exactly.
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How do we find that person?
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How do you find that person?
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I m happy to do that for anybody.
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I love to put people through the paces with that.
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I m a tough negotiator, let me tell ya.
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Excellent, so basically research, do your homework, find someone who s gonna be hard on you, and do a couple of practice rounds with them so that when you walk in there, the adrenaline doesn t overwhelm your sense of judgment.
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Right, because you ve already felt like you ve experienced it.
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The body doesn t know what s real or what s imagined, so you re doing an imaginary thing with a real person, but it s not actually the real deal.
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So what I found, when I do that, and then I go and walk in and sit down with somebody, I ve already felt like I ve done it, so I m ready to go, and they may not have done that, so they may not be as prepared as I am, and that s to my advantage.
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Absolutely.
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Now, let s go back to the relationship building stuff as well.
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SPEAKER_02
You say building relationships is the most important thing to do in any negotiation, and often, yeah, we re in such a hurry, we overlook this type of thing,
2
SPEAKER_02
What kind of relationships are we talking about and how do we sort of go about that?
2
SPEAKER_02
Let s first start off with the types of relationships.
2
SPEAKER_02
How do we know, first of all, if I know I m gonna be negotiating with somebody, what do I do to start that relationship?
2
SPEAKER_02
Do I start it in the negotiation room or do I reach out beforehand knowing, hey, we re gonna have to meet in a few weeks, few months, and we re gonna have to hash this out?
2
SPEAKER_02
Do we have coffee?
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, what does that process look like?
2
SPEAKER_00
I guess it depends on what the negotiation is.
2
SPEAKER_00
For instance, one of my clients is getting ready to renegotiate his contract with a company he s working with.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, he already knows the company and already has somewhat of a relationship.
2
SPEAKER_00
Leading up to the negotiation, he can do some different things and ask some different questions to see if he can find out maybe what the position would be like so he knows where to come from.
2
SPEAKER_00
If it s somebody you don t know, and it depends on whether or not you re able to connect with them in advance or not, you may just call and just ask some questions, introduce yourself, and say, well, we re going to be having this discussion.
2
SPEAKER_00
I d just like to introduce myself and make a connection with you and say I m looking forward to sitting down with you.
2
SPEAKER_00
anything you d like to discuss ahead of time, or maybe do a fact finding where you can get some further information.
2
SPEAKER_00
A lot of times if you re going for a job interview, you re not going to be able to connect with the interviewer in advance, but maybe you can do some research online to see if you can find out something about the person who s interviewing you.
2
SPEAKER_00
If not, you can find out something about the company and see if you can do a little research what the culture is like so you have some kind of a feel of what they re like going in.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, to that point, how much research is enough research or too much research?
2
SPEAKER_01
If I m going to go have a job interview or do a negotiation, I will check the backstory of every person I might meet, know their history, so I can say, hey, oh, I heard your dog was sick last week.
2
SPEAKER_01
I hope it s doing okay now.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is that something that is really, is a little overkill or is that helpful?
2
SPEAKER_00
It depends on the situation.
2
SPEAKER_00
It may be overkill.
2
SPEAKER_00
They may get creeped out by that.
2
SPEAKER_00
But for job interviews, what people like to know is that you know something about the culture or the company.
2
SPEAKER_00
When I retired from the military, the first place I went to work for was Raytheon.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I found out something about the culture of Raytheon.
2
SPEAKER_00
So when I talked to the hiring manager who hired me, I could say, well, I see that Raytheon s this kind of culture and this is what
2
SPEAKER_00
you do and I am in alignment with this because I do this, this, and this kind of thing, just kind of showing how you can align with that company s culture.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they re usually impressed if you ve done some kind of research about the company, not just coming in blindly, oh, hey, I want this job.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s more you ve done your research and done your homework.
2
SPEAKER_02
Again, does it start in the room or does it make sense for us to, obviously, if we re able to, we want to negotiate with people we already know, is that correct?
2
SPEAKER_00
That would be helpful.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right, but obviously we can t always do that, so we start the relationship then, just to be clear, in the room as early as we can.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you re sitting down in the room for the first time and you haven t had any prior discussion, then yeah, you take some time to just chit chat a little bit like, oh, hi, how are you?
2
SPEAKER_00
Blah, blah, blah.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, maybe some questions about how long have you been doing this with this company and maybe just to find out something about them so that that can take a little bit of that, that guard, that barrier down.
2
SPEAKER_00
Good example of that is where I go to church, I m a leader of the Women Veterans Fellowship, and I had to go meet with the pastor of the Veterans Fellowship and got a little nervous about that.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s like, what s he going to ask me?
2
SPEAKER_00
I m a little scared.
2
SPEAKER_00
Didn t know him.
2
SPEAKER_00
Didn t know anything about him.
2
SPEAKER_00
Didn t really find anything in advance.
2
SPEAKER_00
Went in there, sat down, and we started having a discussion, and he asked me a couple questions, and I looked around the room, and I honed in on a picture of Harley Davidson motorcycle.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve been riding Harleys for 20 years.
2
SPEAKER_00
Asked him if he had a Harley.
2
SPEAKER_00
He said, yes, I do.
2
SPEAKER_00
We talked about Harleys for about 20 minutes, and he asked me one other question and sent me on my way.
2
SPEAKER_00
he looking around the room and finding something of affinity that I had with him caused the barriers to be broken down and we had a nice little discussion about it and that kind of smoothed over the whole relationship and we built a relationship instantly based on that affinity.
2
SPEAKER_02
Excellent, so it starts with small talk, but I m guessing, and correct me where I m wrong, it makes way more sense to try to get a deeper relationship, if possible, rather than just like, how are the kids?
2
SPEAKER_02
Great, alright, your grout s down, let s do this.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s more like a real conversation.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because especially depending on the negotiation, if you re looking to do a contract with them or some type of a long term situation, you want to find out a little bit more about maybe their values and their desires and their goals and things and them as a person, because you re going to be connected with them for a long time.
2
SPEAKER_00
So this is kind of if you can t find that information in advance, you want to make sure that you bring that up.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then it also helps to
2
SPEAKER_00
OK, yeah, I m interested in that, too.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, wow, you re from Texas?
2
SPEAKER_00
Me, too.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, you ride a motorcycle?
2
SPEAKER_00
I do, too.
2
SPEAKER_00
You were in the military?
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, those affinity things really paved the way for, oh, OK, you were in the military.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m in the military.
2
SPEAKER_00
Hmm, I trust you because I know that you and I come from the same kind of a mindset, the same kind of a background.
2
SPEAKER_00
It just unconsciously builds rapport with people.
2
SPEAKER_02
Okay, now obviously the title of your book, Think Like a Negotiator, the subtitle is 50 Ways to Create Win-Win Results by Understanding the Pitfalls to Avoid.
2
SPEAKER_02
What are some of the pitfalls to avoid?
2
SPEAKER_02
Obviously, failing to create a relationship is one of them, but what specifically are we looking at?
2
SPEAKER_02
When you see other people negotiate, what do you notice first that they re doing wrong?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, I notice a lot of times that people haven t prepared in advance.
2
SPEAKER_00
If they re unprepared for the discussion, if I m asking questions and they re not able to answer them, or during the discussion they re not able to make decisions or they don t have the authority or whatever, it s kind of like, okay, I know that they re not prepared in advance.
2
SPEAKER_00
so they haven t prepared, I may have leverage in that situation, finding out, listening to what they say, how they say it, you can tell whether or not they have prepared or they haven t prepared.
2
SPEAKER_02
And then- What are you listening for to see if they re prepared or not?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, basically, if they re answering my questions, that they ve got some information, they ve done some research about me or my company or what I do.
2
SPEAKER_00
If we re sitting down and we re discussing, say, a contract for me to come in and do training, and I m asking different questions about the organization
3
SPEAKER_01
And maybe, okay, well, tell me about the personnel.
3
SPEAKER_01
You want me to come and train?
3
SPEAKER_01
And when can we do this?
3
SPEAKER_01
And do you have a location for that?
3
SPEAKER_01
And they re kind of, yeah, I don t know the answer to that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, they haven t thought any of that out.
3
SPEAKER_01
They re just basically there and like, okay, are we having a discussion?
3
SPEAKER_01
Are we going to have to come back and have another discussion?
3
SPEAKER_01
Or are we going to be able to answer these questions now?
3
SPEAKER_01
You can just tell just by the way people actually, I guess, answer the questions you re asking or carry on the discussion.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, and are there ways that you test other people for preparedness when you re negotiating with them?
3
SPEAKER_01
I ll ask some questions like, why is this important to you?
3
SPEAKER_01
I have a whole list of questions in my book about different questions to ask.
3
SPEAKER_01
Why is this important to you?
3
SPEAKER_01
Why is this a fair and reasonable price?
3
SPEAKER_01
Or why is this a fair and reasonable term or condition?
3
SPEAKER_01
Is there any reason we can t move forward with this?
3
SPEAKER_01
What can I do to, what can we do to reach an agreement?
3
SPEAKER_01
What can I do to help you?
3
SPEAKER_01
And just the responses to that is, okay, they haven t thought this through too good.
3
SPEAKER_00
And again, we should repeat some of those questions.
3
SPEAKER_00
One of them I caught was, is there any reason you can t?
3
SPEAKER_00
And what is the reason for your position as well?
3
SPEAKER_00
Or do you have doc, was one of them, do you have documents to back that up?
3
SPEAKER_00
Or did I just make that one up?
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh no, that s another one.
3
SPEAKER_01
What documentation do you have to back up this point you re presenting?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, the best question to get a response from somebody, a lot of times when people, you re offering something to somebody, maybe you re selling something or you have a program you re offering or whatever, people sometimes just say no.
3
SPEAKER_01
We say no three times before we say yes a lot of times because we re just so programmed to know.
3
SPEAKER_01
and oftentimes no is just a request for more information.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if you ask somebody, why can t you?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, I just can t because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because they re just conditioned to go to no.
3
SPEAKER_01
But if you say, is there any reason you can t sign up for my training now?
3
SPEAKER_01
They have to think of the reason and come up with a reason.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it makes them, kind of does a pattern interrupt in their brain and makes them have to come up, OK, what is the reason I can t?
3
SPEAKER_01
I can t just say no to that question.
3
SPEAKER_01
Is there any reason you can t do this?
3
SPEAKER_01
No.
3
SPEAKER_01
No doesn t compute as the answer to that question.
3
SPEAKER_01
They have to actually present a reason.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if they can t find one, then you realize there s a crack there that you can weasel your way into that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Definitely.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, excellent, good.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you re starting the negotiation by creating a relationship.
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you start with small talk, but you re looking for genuine affinity.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then after that, you re looking for testing for their preparedness.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Definitely.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, and then from there, whenever we get objections to what we want, you start to question it in a way that is more open-ended, I guess you would call it, so that they can t just say, well, no.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
Just ask questions where you can get a definite response.
3
SPEAKER_01
And one negotiation strategy, I always say everything is negotiable when you think like a negotiator.
3
SPEAKER_01
And one negotiation strategy that makes everything negotiable is being willing to walk away as a negotiation strategy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
You have to go in and know what your walk away point is.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay, if we get to this point, with this deal point, or this price, or whatever this combination is, I can t go below this, or I can t go above this, and if we do, I m done.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know in advance, I m willing to walk away at this point.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you need to predefine when you re gonna walk away, before you walk in.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, because sometimes you ll get caught up in the moment.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I always make an agreement with myself, okay, I m going to this situation, we re going to sit down.
3
SPEAKER_01
And this is my bottom line, I cannot go above this, or I cannot go below this.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if we do, I m walking away.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I ve got that agreement with myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I don t get caught up in the emotion of the moment and agree to something that isn t a good deal.
3
SPEAKER_00
Great, so I remember that being like a golden rule of networking is the guy who s got the power is the guy who s willing to walk out of the room or something like that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Is that an overstatement or is that pretty clear in general?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, that is a powerful thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
One of the other powerful strategies to use is to stop talking at the appropriate time.
3
SPEAKER_00
Expound on that while I stop talking.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, oftentimes when we re negotiating, we re going back and forth and back and forth.
3
SPEAKER_01
We don t shut up at the right time because there s that adage, he or she who speaks next loses or concedes in the negotiation.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if you re going back and forth on points and you put out a point, they put out a point, you put out your final point, stop talking, give them time to process.
3
SPEAKER_01
Don t say anything because whoever speaks next usually goes ahead and gives in.
3
SPEAKER_01
A perfect example of that, I was, my sister bought a car she couldn t afford and I was negotiating with the finance guy to take it back.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, she signed her name on the dotted line and everything drove off with the car.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he and I are going back and forth and kind of getting a little heated.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you might as well take this now because you re going to repossess it in a couple months.
3
SPEAKER_01
You can t afford this car or any car you have on the lot.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we re going back and forth and back and forth.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he slams his folder shut.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he says, frankly, I m getting upset.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I said, well, I m already upset.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I just glared at him.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was quiet.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it felt like the air was sucked out of the room.
3
SPEAKER_01
But he tore up the papers and we left.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
3
SPEAKER_01
Silence is if you can get comfortable with the discomfort of silence, it s a very strong tool in negotiation.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, back to Aldona Lewis Fernandez.
3
SPEAKER_00
Do you think that there was some weakness in his emotional position there?
3
SPEAKER_00
And him getting emotional about it?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because that seems like a really weak position.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, well, I m getting upset.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, why?
3
SPEAKER_00
If you hold all the cards, why are you upset?
3
SPEAKER_00
You just have to wait out the other person.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you don t hold all the cards, or somehow you re a little bit weak, then yeah, go ahead and get angry about somebody trying to take a car back.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, whatever.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think in that situation that every time he made a comment, I responded with another point that he was backing himself into a corner.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it was a small town and I was active duty military and I had a couple of leverage points.
3
SPEAKER_01
One, they hadn t put the paperwork in the bank yet because this was Sunday.
3
SPEAKER_01
She went on a Saturday to get the car.
3
SPEAKER_01
And two, it s a small military town.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I know in the back of his head, he probably thought that
3
SPEAKER_01
As a military member, I could go back to the base and say that this was somebody who was taking advantage of military families and get his dealership banned from doing business.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if that was a thought process, but that was surely a leverage point that I had.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_01
He just, I think, wasn t expecting
3
SPEAKER_01
me to kind of come with all the points that I was firing at him, because every time he said something, I had something else to come back with.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he started raising his voice and I just followed tonality with him.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then he just blew a gasket and then I just blew back at him and sat there and looked at him until he tore the papers up when we left.
3
SPEAKER_01
What does that mean, followed tonality?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, so if somebody s tonality is, there s ways you can either go where if somebody s talking in a low tone, you can match that tone and then they start raising their tonality.
3
SPEAKER_01
He was getting upset and he was getting more and more upset and his voice was getting stronger and he was getting louder.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I could have either done one of two things.
3
SPEAKER_01
I could have either just kept at a lower tone or I could have matched his tonality.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that s what I did.
3
SPEAKER_01
The louder and stronger he got, the louder and stronger I got until he sort of blew, I blew back at him and then just stopped.
3
SPEAKER_00
So how do we know how high to go on the tonality?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because it seems like him getting emotional and then you getting emotional would actually be not a good thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like I said, it depends on the situation.
3
SPEAKER_01
He was raising his voice a little.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was raising it back and I felt like he was using it as a bully tactic.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was not going to be bullied.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I was just showing him I was not going to be bullied.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s just kind of comes from experience.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I knew that because I d been had a lot of being in the military as a woman in a male dominated environment.
3
SPEAKER_01
I had a lot of people attempt to bully me.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I knew how to act in that kind of situation and recognized it right away.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, because I m thinking for a lot of times for myself, that maybe there s a gender difference here, I don t really know.
3
SPEAKER_00
When somebody s yelling at me, I usually stay super, super calm, and I ll just kind of let them do their thing, and if they re really going off the handle, I ll just stop talking, and then let them do their thing, and I might even say, are you done?
3
SPEAKER_00
just like the implication is, is your temper tantrum over with?
3
SPEAKER_00
Can we continue to have this conversation?
3
SPEAKER_00
And I don t do it in a condescending way, but it s kind of like, hey, all right, now that you re vented, let s continue.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I find that that s, at least for me in some situations, right, there s always a little asterisk by it, works really well for getting people to kind of get that out of their system, realize it s not a winning strategy, and then come back down to earth.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I like that strategy a lot better.
3
SPEAKER_01
As a matter of fact, I had somebody come and scream at me about my son and his friends were shooting water balloons and apparently they started shooting at cars.
3
SPEAKER_01
They weren t supposed to be.
3
SPEAKER_01
But the neighbor saw it and he comes over and he bangs on my door and he screamed at me for about 15 minutes and I just kept calm and I kept saying, I understand.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ll take care of it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I just stayed as calm as calm could be and stood there and stared at him until he finally stormed off because I wasn t going to get into his little temper tantrum with it.
4
SPEAKER_00
A lot of this comes from experience.
4
SPEAKER_00
I know when to use one thing versus another.
4
SPEAKER_00
I would much rather just stay calm and stare at somebody, like you said, and let them have their little temper tantrum and, okay, let s continue the discussion now, shall we?
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah, no, I was just reading one of your blog posts about different types of language to use when you re in a negotiation, and now that you guys are talking about, like, when you have some kind of conflict in a negotiation, what really is kind of the best language to use to kind of either diffuse it, besides silence, silence is obviously the best, but if you re trying to bring somebody down and get back on the same page, is there like a specific type of language you like to use?
4
SPEAKER_02
Because you don t want to talk down to anybody, but you also want to make sure that you re on,
4
SPEAKER_02
your peers and you don t want to just kind of say, OK, you re being an idiot.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you don t ever want to be derogatory to someone, but you want to just be direct, maybe firm, but calm.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I did a lot of discussions with different contractors on the phone when I was in the military, and some of them would use bully tactics.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I would say,
4
SPEAKER_00
OK, you re screaming at me and I m not going to listen to this.
4
SPEAKER_00
So if you d like to continue this conversation when you calm down, please call me back.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I would hang up because I just wasn t going to tolerate that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Same thing if you re in face to face with somebody and they re just like one of the strategies in my book is you can t negotiate with crazy.
4
SPEAKER_00
When somebody s in that crazy mindset and they are just so bent on their emotion and they re just not going to stop, that s another point where you might want to just walk away.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ll continue this conversation with you once you ve calmed down.
4
SPEAKER_00
But if it looks like something where somebody s just getting upset and you can turn the conversation back, like why don t we take a break and then reconvene or
4
SPEAKER_00
Can we continue this conversation without so much emotion?
4
SPEAKER_00
Or what can I do to help you to resolve this issue?
4
SPEAKER_00
And then they re either going to calm down and come back around, or they re not, and you have to decide at some point, we re just gonna take a break until the emotion calms down and then reconvene.
4
SPEAKER_03
Right, so you re essentially asking how you can logically solve their emotional issue.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, because they re obviously emotional about something.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s hit a chord with them somehow.
4
SPEAKER_00
And if you can find out what it is, how can I help you?
4
SPEAKER_00
How can I solve this?
4
SPEAKER_00
What is the problem with this issue?
4
SPEAKER_00
Why is this causing you so much stress or anxiety or whatever it s causing?
4
SPEAKER_00
And maybe they ll be able to come and say, oh, well, this is this and this is that.
4
SPEAKER_00
And if I agree to this, this is really going to undercut me.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I really can t do this.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I m really tied and connected to this.
4
SPEAKER_00
Another thing is, what is your why?
4
SPEAKER_00
If you can find out why it s so important to somebody, it may help you be able to kind of turn the negotiation, turn the corner and, okay, this is important to you because it s tied to your family or it s tied to something that you ve been working on for a long time.
4
SPEAKER_00
I can respect that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Let s see how we can make this work, shall we?
4
SPEAKER_00
Let s turn it back and see how we can go forward.
4
SPEAKER_00
So kind of empathizing with them, understanding their point of view, it may calm them down.
4
SPEAKER_02
So it sounds like the why actually is very important when you first start a negotiation to know where they re coming from.
4
SPEAKER_02
So you know how to kind of get to your middle ground where you can actually get the negotiation to a point where you re both satisfied with the outcome.
4
SPEAKER_00
That depends if you re negotiating for a big company like I was negotiating for the government.
4
SPEAKER_00
Nobody really cared.
4
SPEAKER_00
Unfortunately, as a government person, we didn t care what the contractors, why it was because we re just buying it that we had that mindset is like, I don t care what this is.
4
SPEAKER_00
I just want to buy it and get it off my desk.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it kind of depends on if it s you personally or a small group, small companies working together or small groups of individuals.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s when that question would be effective to find out
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SPEAKER_00
why this is a thing that they re interested in doing to begin with.
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It might be a good thing to start with to find out why we re here meeting today.
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Why are we here?
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Why do we want to do this?
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Let s have a discussion about that.
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That could also tie into building relationships.
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When you ask that question, you find out a little bit more about why they want to go forward with it, and then you share a little bit why you want to go forward with it.
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You might find out something more than if you didn t ask that question.
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Okay, so don t negotiate with the government is the first thing that I got.
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Well, like I said, don t negotiate with crazy, wait, no.
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Right, yeah, so if someone is doing the crazy thing, we literally have to just back off, unplug, offer to come back later.
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Definitely, because there is no way you re going to get through to somebody who s in that kind of a mindset and with that much emotion and they re so fueled and so fired up that there s no way they re going to be able to discuss anything rationally.
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So it s, let s take a break.
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Let s reconvene when emotions are a little bit cooler.
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And then when you come back, you can say, OK, we d like to reconvene and start discussions again, but we first we want to address what happened before and we don t want to go there again.
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So how can we avoid getting to that point so we can reach an agreement?
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Excellent.
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I was reading your blog while we were going.
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I asked the language question because you had the post about try the words that are sound like try, hope and want.
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Oh, right.
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And those words to me are disempowering because you re either going to do something or you re not when you want to reach something.
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I hope I can.
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I tried.
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It sets you up for failure, makes it OK to fail.
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Well, I tried.
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I hope I can.
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I wanted to.
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You re either going to do it or you re not, and you make an affirmative decision to go forward and do it.
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If you don t, failure s okay.
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Fail forward to success.
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But saying, oh, I m going to try to do it sets you up to be, okay, if I don t make it, I tried.
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Somewhere in your mind, in your unconscious, it sets you up to be okay to not make it.
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So it s just, I think, a defeating kind of language.
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Right, so if we hear that, we should realize that s probably not going to happen.
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They just don t want to say no.
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Right.
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Oh, well, we ll try it.
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Now that you ve read that blog, think about it.
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Listen to how many people say those words.
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It s unconscious, but when you think about it, it s very disempowering because it ll set you up to be, oh, I tried.
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I tried to paint the wall.
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It didn t work.
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Yeah, that s a good point.
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It gives them an out, too.
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It s like, okay, I didn t really want to do this, but I said I tried, and then off they go.
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Right, exactly.
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If somebody says that language during a negotiation, well, okay, my thought process on that word means that it s okay if you don t, so are we going to do this or we re not?
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Let s be definitive about it.
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Yeah, well, thank you very much.
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Is there anything that you want to wrap with that we didn t ask you, that you think we should have?
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I think you guys kind of covered the gamut.
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Like I said, everything s negotiable when you think like a negotiator.
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It s a mindset you have to put on.
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It s not something that you re born with.
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You have to actually drill your skills and learn how to be a good negotiator, but you can do that.
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The more that you train your skills and drill your skills, the better you ll become.
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Excellent.
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Thank you so much.
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ThinklikeaNegotiator.com.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well.
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Thank you so much, Aldona.
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Yeah, thanks for having me, it was great.
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You hear a lot about like mirroring their body language and vocal tonality, but there s also something to be said for doing the opposite or just using what they re doing as an indicator as to sort of where they are in the process.
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So I think that was really powerful and the questions of course were powerful as well.
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Show feedback and guest suggestions.
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So if you know someone who s a good fit for the show, let me know.
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Jordan at the art of charm calm and if you enjoy this don t forget to thank Aldana on Twitter We ll have that linked in the show notes as well And as well as the other resources that she mentioned on the show in her book and everything I m also on Twitter at the art of charm I post a lot there stuff that doesn t make it to the show
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Now have a great week and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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