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This is the art of charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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Today we re talking with Michael Roderick.
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This is gonna be an amazing show.
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I m telling you right now, he was a teacher, gone Broadway producer.
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This guy knows networking.
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It s like he s listened to AOC and just digested all this information and we re gonna talk about some really great concepts from the spectrum of anxiety around asking for something from people in your network, how to create it, how to not think of it as networking.
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Of course, you ve heard that on the show before.
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We re gonna take a unique spin on it.
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breaking your network down into four categories and know who to focus your energy and time on, four archetypes you find at large events, how being one of them can help you conquer anxiety about approaching someone, and something called the gate strategy, which creates balance in your life around giving, asking, thanking, and experimenting within your connections, within your network.
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This is fantastic, we went extra long.
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We even created a master class for a social capital product out of some of this episode.
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So enjoy this one with Michael Roderick.
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With that, welcome to The Art of Charm.
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I m Jordan Harbinger.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
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Imagine having a mix of experienced mentors teaching you their expertise, packing decades of research, testing, and tough lessons into a curriculum.
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We may not have all the answers, but we definitely have all the questions.
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Make sure to stay up to date with The Art of Charm and get some great stuff that we don t or can t share on the show by signing up at theartofcharm.com.
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We ll email you our Fundamentals Toolkit that covers topics like body language, nonverbal communication, persuasion, business networking, public speaking, negotiation, and a whole lot more.
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I m also doing regular videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward every single week.
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We ve also got our live programs running every week here in Los Angeles.
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In fact, we ve got guys from all over the world, which shows that no matter where you are, you can make it here if you re committed to your own growth.
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Get in touch ASAP by phone or just email me, jordanattheartofcharm.com.
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Get some info from us now so you can plan ahead.
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I also want to encourage you to join us in our Social Capital Challenge.
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at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed to 33444.
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This is about making you a better networker, a better connector, developing personal and professional relationships all around you.
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It is epic.
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We re getting a ton of great feedback on it and if you want some accountability, please invite your friends as well.
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That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed.
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That s charmed to 33444 and they can join the challenge too.
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Now, Michael Roderick.
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So, Michael, thanks for joining us.
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Tell us what you do in one sentence.
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I help entrepreneurs create a smart relationship design for their lives by helping them curate, extend, and leverage their existing networks.
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Okay, and that s sort of like loaded, and half the people just tuned out, but basically what this means in layman s terms, right, is we re talking about you ve got a Rolodex full of people, you wanna make sure that it s got the best people for you and for other people in that same Rolodex curation, right, make sure the right people are in it, and also to grow it.
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Yeah, exactly.
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The sort of simple, like, non, hey, this is who I am entrepreneur thing is I help you spend more time with the people that you wanna spend time with and less time with the people that you don t.
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Okay, and want to spend time with can include friends and family, or are you talking about strictly for business purposes?
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Honestly, I have found that a lot of people, it ends up working with both friends and family as well as for business purposes.
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Basically, curating your network and really thinking very carefully about who you bring into your life can help you in both areas.
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And it s funny because a lot of the time we harp on what we put in our bodies, we harp on what technology we use, but when you ask the average person, do you really think about who you allow into your life and who do you really spend time with?
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Very few people take the time to curate that or think about that.
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Okay, you know, that s very true, because a lot of times we make friends as kids, because it s the kids on our street, and then later as we get a little older, it s the kids in our school, and then high school, it s the kids on your sports team, college, it s the kids that live near you, that you have group projects with, maybe you sit near in certain classes, and then as adults, it s whoever s at work, maybe in the adjacent office, or in your working group, or however the company is organized, very seldom is it, oh, well, I selected
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pretty much everybody in my life based on them being a high quality individual, them being in a similar industry or niche, them having similar goals, them being interested in helping me achieve my goals and me help them achieve theirs.
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That s almost never the case.
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Yeah, yeah, most of the time we just sort of like, we have our friends and we choose our friends based on existing sort of social circles.
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Right, proximity.
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Exactly.
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The groups that we serve really, really like and we don t actually ask, like, what is my interaction with this person?
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How do I feel when I m around this person?
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And are they as invested in my success as I have been in theirs?
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It s it s rare that we take the time to think about that.
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It s super rare, and the best and most successful people, or at least the ones that are most comfortable with this, are not only deliberate about this process, but they do it in a way that s non-robotic and feels good to the people as a part of the process.
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Because, of course, when you re starting this, and one of the reasons that most people hate quote-unquote networking is because if you do it poorly, you feel like a used car salesman and everybody else feels used.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So you re designing win-wins, is what it sounds like.
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Exactly.
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To really use a crap cliche that everyone hates.
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You re using win-wins.
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Excellent.
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But you didn t start by doing this.
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I mean, tell us a little bit about your background.
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You know, why should I listen to you?
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What do you know about win-win?
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Yeah, so a fun sort of aspect is I started out as a high school English teacher, and I went from being a high school English teacher to a Broadway producer in under two years.
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Naturally, sure.
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So that s usually the one that s just like, what, how, what s that all about?
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And... Took the class to see cats and stayed.
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Exactly.
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I was just like, that s the way to do it.
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I just hung around all these other producers and I was like, be my friend.
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And of course they were just like, oh yes, I want to be your friend.
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Instantly, right.
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Yeah.
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Good.
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Well, thanks for coming on the show.
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Appreciate it.
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That process seems tough because any industry, especially something as, I don t want to say pretentious and I don t want to say niche because I have no experience with it, but something so elite probably is the polite descriptor of something like showbiz, it seems like there would be a lot of closed doors to the new guy.
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Insular.
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Exactly, exactly.
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One of my mentors is Ken Davenport, who s a pretty popular Broadway producer now.
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And Ken used to say that it was one of those cases of the second that the door opened for you in the producing world, you would step in and then would slam shut.
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And it really is like that in a lot of ways.
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Like once you ve kind of broken into those circles, there is a lot of protection around the decision makers within the Broadway space, especially investors versus producers.
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So investors are just putting money into shows, whereas producers, they may be putting money into shows, but they re also aggregating investors.
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So there s a lot of guardedness around that community for sure.
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So how do you break into that?
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I mean, that s the key, right?
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Because you managed to do that and you systemized it and now you re gonna teach that system to us.
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Yeah, so basically, the thing that I learned that was the most important was that within the Broadway world,
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credit is like the biggest thing, right?
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So if you want to be a Broadway producer, your natural inclination is to basically be like, okay, I m gonna raise this amount of money, and I wanna be above the title on this particular show.
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But the problem is, you ve got a bunch of producers who they all want credit to.
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So if you re going to them and saying, I wanna raise this money, and I wanna get credit, it becomes this negotiation, and then you really have to prove yourself in a lot of different ways.
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and if you haven t raised money before or if you re very early on in sort of the money raising process, a lot of those people are just not going to let you in.
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So the way that I looked at it was I said, okay, if credit s the big thing and it s the big issue, why don t I just kind of take that out of the equation?
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and find a couple of producers that I think are on their way up and sort of making things happen and say, listen, I just want to get better at raising money.
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So give me your deal flow.
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And I m going to see if I can find some investors for you and help you become more successful in the work that you do.
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And a bunch of producers were very open to that because I wasn t coming to them with, I want to be you already.
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Like, I want to be a producer right now.
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I was saying, I want to learn from you.
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And this is going to be the process that I m going to implement to make that happen.
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Okay this makes sense right so along with basically along the guidelines of what we teach at AOC it s make this as easy for the other guy especially if you re reaching up and asking for them to invest time it s just not going to happen time and energy for people who are busy who don t necessarily
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need you or don t know that they need you, you ve gotta do all of the work and you ve gotta make it so easy for them to say yes that they just have nothing to lose by doing so.
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Exactly, and when a lot of people will ask me about sort of how I made it happen so quickly, what I say is that I focused on other people s success, but I focused on the right people.
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I really thought very carefully about which producers did I believe in and thought were doing really great work,
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And I gave my help and support to those people, but I really took the time to make the decision of which of them I talked to.
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Because there were some that, if I had done something like that, they just would have taken advantage of me.
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And they just would have been jerks, basically.
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I found the ones that really were the type where they were interested in mentoring, they were interested in helping, and they saw me as somebody who could help them achieve their goals, but they also cared about where I was going and what I was doing.
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How do you screen for that?
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Because it seems like in the beginning, nobody would care about where you re going and what you re doing.
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Even just a reasonably nice person would be like, whatever, I ve got ish to do, I don t need this right now.
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I think it really comes down to questions.
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I honestly think if you re asking really interesting, creative questions, if you re taking the time to really research people and you re asking them things that they never get asked, they just tend to take an interest in you.
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So rather than going to these producers and being like, hey, I saw that you produced this show.
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What was that like?
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Which is boring.
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I would say, I saw that you worked on this project.
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And I m fascinated with the way that you figured out how to get these actors paid.
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Can you tell me a little bit more about that process and what you did? 
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And then they would just be really excited to talk about something that they normally never talk about.
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And we d get into this conversation and then they d say, oh, well, you know, what are you trying to do?
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What are you trying to accomplish?
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And it would just kind of move from there.
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So let s break that down a little bit.
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So what you did is you got really specific about something that they had done that s not the thing that s at the top of their website.
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Exactly.
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So you didn t pull one of those, what s that Chris Farley sketch from like SNL in the 90s where he s like, hey, remember that one time when it was like you and Jackie Chan and you did the kung fu stuff?
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That was awesome.
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And they re like sitting there.
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With the dead conversation.
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It makes perfect sense to do this.
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This requires research and so what it kind of subcommunicates is I ve actually taken a real interest in you.
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I want to find out this point that s not just something so superficial that it s clear that I m only trying to show interest in you.
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So I m gonna research this and find something that s worth me asking you that shows that I ve paid attention to your work, and something that maybe you don t get to talk about all the time, so it s not just, ugh, alright, I ll give Michael Roderick my spiel on how I fund my plays, or whatever, or hey, point me to this article that I wrote about this, because I get asked so often.
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Things like that.
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And then, after that, the law of reciprocity kind of gets them going.
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Well, anyway, so enough about me, what about you?
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To just be polite with the whole thing.
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And of course, if they don t ever ask you anything about you, what happens if they just never show an interest back to you?
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What do you do with that?
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That has to have happened, especially in showbiz, for God s sake.
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Oh, definitely, definitely.
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If they never show an interest back, if they never really ask any questions, I don t spend as much time focusing on them.
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In some cases, it s just they re not really interested in what I m doing because I m not where I need to be yet for them to pay attention to me.
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or they re a frickin  narcissist, that s also very possible, right?
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Yeah, exactly.
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There s a lot of them.
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There are a lot of people who have made a decision, unfortunately, because they miss out on a lot of opportunities because of it, but they ve made a decision to basically say, if you have not hit a certain level, if you re not doing a certain thing, you re not worth my time at all.
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There are just people out there who that s sort of their MO.
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hey, where are you, because I ll log out in the middle of the conversation, because I don t want to be on instant messenger, I m treating it like email, and they ll be like, where are you?
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Well, fine, if you don t want to talk to me, and I m like, what the heck, abnormally entitled guy, or somebody will say,
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you know, this message sounds canned, and I m like, well, I m definitely using shortcuts to put in phrases here to answer questions that I get a hundred times a day, so naturally I m gonna say, how did you find the show, and I m not typing that exact phrase out, I m gonna ask you that question, because half the people don t even reply anyway, or they come out with, anyway, here s how you can help me, Jordan, so it makes sense to screen for that at a certain level, because otherwise you ll spend all of your time just
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chatting idly and not getting anywhere.
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Yeah, no, and I completely agree.
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And I think that there s a major difference between the people who care enough to like you actually have feelings about it.
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And then the people who are just like, I don t give a shit about anybody.
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I ve gotten to a certain level and I m not even going to create these templated things and like and help you out or sort of send the article.
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You know, I think that that s the thing.
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There are the people like you who you do want to support folks, you do want to help, but you also understand the importance of guarding your time and also saying no so that you can continue to grow.
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Because we all hit that point where if we say yes to a lot of things to get to a certain level, but once we hit that plateau, we have to start saying no.
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Otherwise, we ll just get pulled apart by all of the yeses that we re giving.
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Yeah, this was taught to me by somebody else on the show, a few people, but Selena Sue comes to mind, she says, picking someone s brain is often like picking their pocket, especially if they re a teacher, a thought leader, or a content creator.
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And it s very true, so what a lot of people do in my position is they create one of those profiles on Clarity.fm, if you re familiar with the platform, where...
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you can say, yeah, we can talk on the phone.
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I m glad you asked.
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Here s my clarity.fm profile, and they go there, and they can set an appointment with you, and it charges them each minute, and you can set the rate, and I ll tell you, out of the 90 requests that I probably get each month to jump on the phone, I probably do like one.
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because people don t really want the information as bad as they say in their email when it comes time to swiping the card, right?
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And you have to do that, otherwise you won t be able to actually create anything.
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Yeah.
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And what you re pointing out to that s really important is you re pointing out the fact that this person, if they decide to swipe their card and do the clarity call with you, they re making an investment.
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Yeah.
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So they re actually saying, this is important enough to me that I m going to invest more than my time.
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So, you know that if you re going to have a conversation with somebody who s willing to put some money down, chances are they re somewhat serious about what it is that they re doing.
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You re probably not going to have an awful conversation.
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I mean, sometimes you do, but for the most part, if somebody s willing to make any significant investment,
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You kind of know that it s going to be at least somewhat worth your while.
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It may not be the perfect conversation, but you know that you re not just going to be stuck on what I like to refer to as a steamroller meeting, where basically somebody just like, you re Bruce Willis in the sixth sense.
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They just like go and go, and they like pitch at you and all these different types of things, and basically you never get a chance to get a word in edgewise.
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Exactly.
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Over the last 17 years, we have launched our fair share of online courses, coaching programs, and finding the right platform has always been a challenge.
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Go to Kajabi.com slash charm and join the creators and entrepreneurs who have made over seven billion dollars.
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Hey Art of Charm listeners, I m excited to share a new podcast.
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I ve been absolutely binging.
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Winning is an everyday mindset and Craig Robinson and John Calipari are here to help.
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On Ways to Win podcast, Craig and Coach Cal use their on-court wisdom to solve your off-court problems.
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Whether it s trouble at home or a workplace dilemma, the coaches will help you find a winning formula for success.
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You ll hear from prominent athletes, business leaders, and celebrities who reveal insights that made them into the leaders they are today.
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And don t miss President Obama sharing how he deals with pressure by projecting confidence, believing in your team, and taking criticism.
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Listen to Ways to Win wherever you get your podcasts.
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SPEAKER_03
Yeah, and so the lesson here isn t just, we re so important, we charge for our time.
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The lesson here is, if people want your time, make them do something that proves that they re not just going to trade their time for your time, because if they don t value their time, they re printing money and it s costing you time and money.
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SPEAKER_03
Also, if you want someone else s time, realize that they are entitled to value their time at their own price, and if you re not willing to pay that price, then you cannot get mad
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Because I feel like a lot of folks who ask us, and I m sure you ve seen this as well, for networking and relationship development advice, they get furious when other people value their time at all.
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Let alone when they value it higher than their time.
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But the truth of the matter is, if you re unemployed and you just graduated from college and you re looking for a job, your time is just factually, in my definition, less valuable than a C-level executive who s got a full plate.
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Sure, and it s that respect for somebody s time and that understanding of that respect which will cause people to just look at you so differently.
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And it s really interesting that you point that out because one of the things that I have a lot of conversations with clients about is the idea of if you give something and it s truly a gift, a gift has no expectation of return.
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and if you down the line you reach out to the other person and they don t help you or they don t support you you have no right to be mad you gave a gift you did not expect any kind of it like you did not structure this like oh i m gonna get this thing back
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So you have to be conscious of that because a lot of people get into this mode of like, Oh, if I did this, I m going to get this thing in return, or this thing s going to happen.
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And the world doesn t work that way.
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And relationships don t work that way.
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We build credibility with people.
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And some people then choose to help us, but it s their choice to help us.
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It s not that, oh, I did this thing for you, so now you have to do this thing for me.
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Exactly, yeah.
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We have a course called Social Capital, and the principle you re talking about right now, the mistake, I should say, is called keeping score.
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I don t think we made that up, and it s certainly not that creative, but the idea is you have to actually give generously.
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You cannot give and keep score, because what that would be like, it would be like after the show, when you re like, oh, okay,
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Well, now that I ve been on your show and given you my wonderful content, I want you to mail my event out to your email list.
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And I m like, well, no, that s not really a great fit, but thanks for the offer.
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And then you re like, what a jerk.
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SPEAKER_03
I took my time and I went on your show and now you re not going to do anything for me.
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SPEAKER_03
And at that point, and we ve all had this happen, I feel like no matter what stage, whenever that happens, you just, my heart breaks a little, because I m like, oh, you didn t want to do anything that we just did together, you just wanted something else, we call it a covert contract, where I was gonna somehow pay you back, but since I wasn t aware of that, and I m not gonna honor it, you re actually mad.
2
SPEAKER_03
and that s bad news because that will torpedo a budding relationship, friendship, anything that you ve got faster than just about anything because what it says is you re not generous and you re not genuine either.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and I think what happens is I am a very, very big believer in frameworks versus formulas.
2
SPEAKER_00
What does that mean?
2
SPEAKER_00
So basically, if somebody s following a formula, they read a book or they read a blog post or they listen to a podcast,
2
SPEAKER_00
and they literally say things the exact same way that they heard it or that they read it in the book and they sound like a robot and they sound like a magazine or an article.
2
SPEAKER_00
And with frameworks, if somebody gives you a bunch of ideas or concepts, you choose how you re gonna actually execute on that framework, on that idea.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you look at the principles as opposed to, oh, I m gonna say it this exact way.
2
SPEAKER_00
when somebody sort of frames it like, how can I help you?
2
SPEAKER_00
I m like, okay, what book did you read?
2
SPEAKER_00
And why are you opening with that question?
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, a lot of people do that.
2
SPEAKER_03
Don t get me wrong.
2
SPEAKER_03
I appreciate when somebody asks what they can do for me, even if it is a little bit scripted, but it s certainly better if it s not.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think the other thing is like,
2
SPEAKER_00
If you don t actually care, like if you don t actually want to help the other person, then don t try to fudge it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, don t be like, oh, well, you know, I learned that I have to ask this person about it s like, if you don t really think that what they re doing is valuable or helpful, or you re not excited about it, don t say, oh, I d love to learn more, and get to know you better just because they have a large following or something like that, because they re gonna find you out.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they re gonna be pissed.
2
SPEAKER_00
when it s like, oh, well, you just came, and similar to what you were talking about before, you just came and did this or acted this way so that I would do this thing for you.
2
SPEAKER_03
Right, and look, I get it that people need things, and I get that people want things in return sometimes,
2
SPEAKER_03
But for me, that s not the part that s annoying or irritating or even even disappointing the part that s disappointing is now I m Rewinding everything you ve ever done with me every chance every combo We ve ever had every project, and I m going at what point did you plan to spring this on me at what point?
2
SPEAKER_03
It s like it was all just a big lie right.
2
SPEAKER_03
Just did you ever love me right?
2
SPEAKER_03
It s like that you re just like when did your agenda kick in and
2
SPEAKER_03
And was any of it real to put a dramatic spin on it?
2
SPEAKER_03
And that s the part that s super disappointing, because you feel like you re not really friends.
2
SPEAKER_03
So how do we start to fix this?
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, there s definitely anxiety on the flip side of the coin about asking for anything.
2
SPEAKER_03
and that affects the network you ve developed.
2
SPEAKER_03
Asking for things directly can be really touchy.
2
SPEAKER_03
How do we even start to handle this in the first place?
2
SPEAKER_03
Because, yes, okay, we ve already kind of covered this and we beat this to death in Social Capital and on The Art of Charm.
2
SPEAKER_03
Help other people all the time, as much as possible, as much as you can afford to, without the expectation of anything in return.
2
SPEAKER_03
But at some point, you do have to expect or ask for, at least, generosity, or you re only working one side of the equation.
2
SPEAKER_03
It just has to be done correctly.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so basically, everybody falls on this spectrum of anxiety, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
And on one side, you have extreme asking anxiety.
2
SPEAKER_00
And what I find is that most people who have a very giving nature naturally, usually fall on the far end of that anxiety spectrum, they re really, really worried about asking because they feel like they re basically kind of
2
SPEAKER_00
putting somebody else out by asking, even if they ve helped and sort of supported and done a lot of other things.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then on the other side of the spectrum is what I like to refer to as asking blinders.
2
SPEAKER_00
So once you sort of get to this point where it s just like, Oh my God, I need this thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
You suddenly just like you become stupid.
2
SPEAKER_00
You just start asking everybody, you just destroy things because you re so focused on that thing that you want to get.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that ties to this idea of direct asking.
2
SPEAKER_00
We get taught all the time this really, really crappy advice of like, well, you don t get if you don t ask.
2
SPEAKER_00
ask for what you want, and all this other stuff, and then everybody translates that as, oh, I should ask directly.
2
SPEAKER_00
I should go to the person and basically be like, do this thing for me.
2
SPEAKER_00
And what it does, just psychologically, is it s like we re back in the wild, and the other person s trying to steal our food, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Our primitive brains go into effect.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, on the anxiety side, you re freaked out because you re asking directly, because you re feeling that feeling of, I m taking food.
2
SPEAKER_00
And on the other person s side, they re like, you re trying to steal from me, you re trying to take something.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, it almost always ends up feeling very, very uncomfortable when somebody asks directly.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m sure you ve experienced this, we were just talking about it, where it s like, somebody just comes to you and they re like, can you blast this out to your email list?
2
SPEAKER_00
Or can you do this?
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s just like, what, where the hell did this come from?
2
SPEAKER_00
Why?
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think there s so much out there where we re taught that, oh, that person broke into somebody s office and asked for it and they got it, so that s going to be me.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s great for marketing, but it s really, really awful for real life.
2
SPEAKER_00
It makes a great news story to be like, I talked to somebody in an elevator and they gave me a million dollars
3
SPEAKER_00
investment because I asked them directly about my company.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s really, really awful for anybody who decides I m gonna do that because they re gonna damage a lot of relationships.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s super true.
3
SPEAKER_01
It reminds me of my friend Jesse Itzler who was on the show before.
3
SPEAKER_01
He used to do this thing where he d be like,
3
SPEAKER_01
Hey, I represent some famous hip-hop artist or something.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he d get a record executive in a meeting and he d go, Eminem must be running late.
3
SPEAKER_01
Anyway, in the meantime, here s this other artist and he s playing his own demo tape to kill time.
3
SPEAKER_01
He did that a lot and he s like, and it worked eventually or something like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
But the thing is, I m sure there were a lot of bridges burned behind it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the lesson wasn t, this is how you get your meeting.
3
SPEAKER_01
The lesson was more hustle related.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I definitely see people doing this, and I get a lot of really obnoxious stuff, and again, I m not trying to complain, I m only speaking from experience here.
3
SPEAKER_01
Get a lot of pitches and things like that as well, and when I m like, hey look, this isn t a great way to do that, please, look, there s a lot of stuff you shouldn t be doing here.
3
SPEAKER_01
And they ll go, well, look, man, I m all about the hustle you never get if you don t ask.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, yeah, but you CC d me on a mail with the same message with like 84 other podcasters, and you put a scheduling link for me to schedule a time to talk with you.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s not gonna get a lot of results.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then, of course, that s a waste of my breath, because usually their argument is, well, I ve already gotten five replies from other people in that same thread, so it s your loss.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m just like, why do I kill myself over these things?
3
SPEAKER_01
But it s true, you can screen in poor relationships by having poor relationship building habits is kind of what I m going to, because you might create a bunch of fake meetings or something like that, and one of them might hit, but in the meantime, there s 83 other people that don t ever want to see you again and are telling each other not to deal with you.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s really a losing strategy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, there was the whole thing about when the Powerball thing was happening.
3
SPEAKER_00
A lot of articles were going around about how, you know, the lottery is basically helping you understand that a lot of people are just not really good at math, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s just so many folks who they read that story or they see that thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
I like to refer to it as sort of the myth of the deus ex machina.
3
SPEAKER_00
So in the Greek tragedies, if something was going really poorly, instead of actually solving the problem, a god would just come down from the heavens and be like, everything s fine now.
3
SPEAKER_00
And nobody would have to like deal with their shit.
3
SPEAKER_00
And basically,
3
SPEAKER_00
That s the thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
We have this belief that one thing is just going to transform everything.
3
SPEAKER_00
If I do this one thing, all of a sudden it s going to make everything change for me, and that s playing the lottery.
3
SPEAKER_00
It really is.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s saying that this one thing is going to solve it, so I need to make sure that I ask, because if I ask for this one thing, it s going to change my life.
3
SPEAKER_00
And in so many cases, it doesn t.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s funny you should use that.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was literally, I was like, should I talk about how this is kind of like Powerball?
3
SPEAKER_01
Nah, it s cliche.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then you were like, it s like the lottery.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s very true because people say, look, you have a 25% chance of getting into a crash if you text and drive.
3
SPEAKER_01
And people are like, not me.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then it s like, you have a one in 226 million chance of winning Powerball.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then suddenly it s dumb and dumber.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you re saying there s a chance.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s unbelievable, but it definitely goes towards what you were saying, which is if the consequences seem really awesome, you ll take those odds.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if they re negative, you re kind of like, I m fine.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not gonna get an STD.
3
SPEAKER_01
No, I don t need to wash my hands.
3
SPEAKER_01
All humans do this.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not trying to poke fun at anybody, but you don t want this to be your strategy.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let it be your vice or your fault, but definitely don t let it be your strategy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I definitely agree.
3
SPEAKER_00
So the question is always sort of like, okay, if I m not going to ask directly, how do I rethink this?
3
SPEAKER_00
So there s four ways that you can think about asking.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the first is, of course, the direct ask.
3
SPEAKER_00
And we talked about sort of the dangers and the issues around that.
3
SPEAKER_00
But the next one is the indirect ask.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the indirect ask is a really, really powerful tool, and it s one of the best ways that I use to raise money.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because basically what it does is you present a problem to somebody, and then you give them the opportunity to be the hero.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s up to them whether or not they want to help you or sort of support you, but you just kind of present this problem that you re having, and you ask them if they have any ideas.
3
SPEAKER_00
And what s really interesting is if you ask somebody if they have any ideas, very few people will say no, because it kind of feels bad to be like, oh, no, I don t have any ideas.
3
SPEAKER_00
I never think of anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
I never think of any way to solve a problem.
3
SPEAKER_00
most people will come up with at the very least something to sort of help you and support you.
3
SPEAKER_00
And when I would raise money, that was one of the biggest things.
3
SPEAKER_00
I would go to people and I d basically be like, I m raising money for this show, and I m trying to think of sort of the best people to talk to who do this kind of thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Do you have any ideas?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I totally envision you being like, so here s the problem.
3
SPEAKER_01
I really need a lot of money.
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you have any ideas on where I could get any, Mr. Rich Guy?
3
SPEAKER_01
Anything at all, and just spitballing.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m open to anything you have to say on the matter.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think it, to your point, it has to be a little more sophisticated.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, fair enough.
3
SPEAKER_00
You have to sort of present the value of it and sort of what it is, but a lot of the time when you present people with problems, we re just kind of obsessed with the idea of solving them.
3
SPEAKER_00
So when you put a problem out there, it s kind of hard to not solve the problem, especially if you re just a nice person, and you re just like, you hear it and you re like, hmm,
3
SPEAKER_00
That s something that maybe I can help with or maybe I can support.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I would get lots of introductions to potential investors.
3
SPEAKER_00
I would get lots of introductions to other producers.
3
SPEAKER_00
And in many cases, I would say, listen, I know very little about this industry.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m just learning.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I would love to know whether or not you think this is a viable show.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, I would just ask them point blank, and then they d sit there and we d talk about it, and in some cases, they d be like, yeah, I want to invest in this after they sort of went through the process of it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then in other cases, they d say, you know what, this really isn t a fit for me, but you seem like you really are interested in this and excited about this.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m going to pass it along to my friend who I think it could be a fit for.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it really just kind of changes the dynamic when you present people with problems, and interesting problems.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you re asking really good questions in that way, you never know what s going to happen.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the way that I look at it is that you limit the things that you can get in life when you limit other people s creativity.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if you decide, this is what I want, and to your first example of, I just need a boatload of money, do you have any ideas how I can get a boatload of money?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, there s not gonna be a lot of creativity in that conversation.
3
SPEAKER_00
But if you say,
3
SPEAKER_00
I m really trying to figure out the best way to have conversations with people who have either invested in shows before or done that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Do you have any thoughts?
3
SPEAKER_00
Do you have any ideas?
3
SPEAKER_00
Somebody could come up with the most random, crazy thing, but it could be huge for you.
3
SPEAKER_00
They d be like, you know what?
3
SPEAKER_00
A bunch of real estate investors basically had a lot of money that they have to get rid of right now because they re worried about taxes, so why don t you talk to these three guys because they re looking to invest in things so that they don t get hit this year.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, all of a sudden, now you ve got a completely different sort of channel that you can kind of go to.
3
SPEAKER_01
If we re sort of pinging other people to ping their network on our behalf, are we doing the same thing for them?
3
SPEAKER_00
It depends.
3
SPEAKER_00
So a lot of the time that we re asking for them to help or support us, they re gonna help us in a very specific way because we ve given them a specific way to help us.
3
SPEAKER_00
We ve actually educated them as to how to help us.
3
SPEAKER_00
Most of the time, we don t educate the people in our lives who want to support us and who want to help us very well.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that same person who helped you or found people in their network to support you, they may not come back to you asking for that exact same thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
They may come back to you asking for something else, or they may never actually come back to you asking for something.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s one
3
SPEAKER_00
It s one of those things where there are many times where you ll talk to somebody about making a connection or sort of supporting in some way, and they ll do it by making an introduction for you, but then maybe you invite them to come to an event later on, or you invite them or let them know about an opportunity, or maybe you let them know about a book that changes their life.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s so many different ways to support and help people.
3
SPEAKER_00
And we don t always have to sort of think about it as, oh, if they give me introductions, I should be giving introductions to them, because they may not actually want introductions.
3
SPEAKER_00
They may be interested in something completely different.
3
SPEAKER_01
Interesting, right, and we have to fish out what that might be.
3
SPEAKER_01
How do we break our network down into maybe categories or grades, or is there any value to that?
3
SPEAKER_01
How do we know who to focus our energy and our time on?
3
SPEAKER_01
Once we have such a large network, you gotta prioritize things somehow, or we ll just drown.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so the way that I do it, and this has worked really well for me, is I created this A, B, C, D model.
3
SPEAKER_00
And basically, the A s are the advocates.
3
SPEAKER_00
So anybody who I consider an advocate is somebody who has spent a lot of time supporting, being helpful.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re kind of a natural giver type, and they tell other people about the work that I m doing.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re always asking sort
4
SPEAKER_01
of how can I help, they re really thoughtful people.
4
SPEAKER_01
With advocates, you spend more time with those people.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think that the mistake that we often make is that we spend the exact same amount of time with people all across this spectrum of categories.
4
SPEAKER_01
And advocates are the people that you want to spend more time with because they re willing to support you and they re willing to help you.
4
SPEAKER_01
So the next one is what I like to refer to as the boomerangs.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the boomerangs are the people in your life who everything with them, to your point of keeping score, everything with them is a negotiation or a deal.
4
SPEAKER_01
They very rarely ever give gifts.
4
SPEAKER_01
Everything with them is a transaction.
4
SPEAKER_01
So you ll find that with boomerangs, it s like if you re gonna help them, they re gonna be right in touch with you like the next second.
4
SPEAKER_01
to basically be like, oh, can you do this thing for me?
4
SPEAKER_01
Or if there s some sort of a deal, they re already talking about percentages before you even talk about what the deal looks like.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re very, very structured about sort of like everything needs to be fair.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they re all about reciprocity in as quick sort of a manner as possible.
4
SPEAKER_01
And boomerangs tend to not get very deep with you.
4
SPEAKER_01
They tend to not be incredibly helpful because they re more focused on the specifics of the deal.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re more focused on sort of, how is this going to work out for both of us?
4
SPEAKER_01
How s it going to work out?
4
SPEAKER_01
Probably a little bit better for me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they re very, very focused around reciprocity.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that seems like there s nothing wrong with it on its face, but it could get a little annoying if every time you need anything, they re trying to figure out what s in it for them.
4
SPEAKER_00
Or am I mischaracterizing the relationship?
4
SPEAKER_01
No, no, you re definitely right.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s one of those things where there s never a gift.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s never something that they re just doing for you.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s always structured.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re always going to have some sort of deal attached to what it is.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re always coming to you with some new like, oh, if you do this, you can make this much money.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s never, hey, here s something that will help you.
4
SPEAKER_01
it s always sort of back and forth.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you get a lot of those folks in sort of structured networking groups because they ve read these books or they ve done these programs.
4
SPEAKER_01
And basically, you know, I should get a referral because I sent you a referral because that s what they learned in their networking group.
4
SPEAKER_01
So you want to spend less time with those folks.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so these are like scorekeepers only the scorekeeping just permeates their entire life.
4
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_00
Got it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s awful.
4
SPEAKER_00
Unfortunately, you can t avoid that entirely.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s just it s so pervasive.
4
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_00
You re right.
4
SPEAKER_00
You got to spot it early.
4
SPEAKER_00
And the way that we spot this, I m guessing, is just looking for people who are always trying to figure out how the equilibrium s gonna come back to them in their favor, kind of right at the point of sale.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, oh yeah, I m happy to introduce you to this person, and by the way, can you introduce me to this guy?
4
SPEAKER_00
Might be innocent the first time it happens, but if you ask them again, and then they re like, and also, I would like this from you.
4
SPEAKER_00
It starts to become like, well, why can t you just introduce me to somebody without me also doing some other random, seemingly unrelated thing for you?
4
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, I 100% agree.
4
SPEAKER_00
That makes sense.
4
SPEAKER_00
How can we tell who are advocates, by the way?
4
SPEAKER_00
It might be obvious, but I figured I would ask, just so we can identify these people more easily.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think that advocates are proactive.
4
SPEAKER_01
There are very few people who will just kind of reach out, basically to say, how are things going with you?
4
SPEAKER_01
Or they ll read something of yours, and they ll come back to you and say, I read that you were having this issue, here s something that I can do to help.
4
SPEAKER_01
Or they ll invite you to dinners.
4
SPEAKER_01
They ll do things that are more proactive.
4
SPEAKER_01
than anything else.
4
SPEAKER_01
They really take the time to care and think about you.
4
SPEAKER_01
And even when you re talking to them, if you have your sort of initial interaction, like your first meeting with them, most of the time, if you re dealing with an advocate, they ll spend much more time talking about you than they will about themselves.
4
SPEAKER_01
So the balance of the meeting will be a lot of them asking you questions and trying to be helpful and sort of thoughtful to you.
4
SPEAKER_01
And in some cases, you may even have to ask them to tell you a little bit about them, because sometimes they ll just spend the whole time asking about you and seeing how they can help you.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that makes sense.
4
SPEAKER_00
So obviously, if we had it our way, there would be very few boomerangs and a lot of advocates, but not always realistic.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, got it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so the C s are the celebrities.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the interesting thing about celebrities is that everybody s a celebrity to somebody.
4
SPEAKER_01
So, these are people who they have a certain amount of access, they have a certain amount of power, they have a certain amount of influence, and the way that you handle your relationship with them has to be much more careful because their time is incredibly valuable, they get hit up all the time by lots of different types of people,
4
SPEAKER_01
They re often sort of used in many situations and asked directly for a lot of different types of things.
4
SPEAKER_01
So if you do encounter somebody who s got that kind of level of notoriety within your network, it s important to know that that s kind of how they re regarded so that you can make sure that you re not abusing that relationship.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of the classic when somebody s like, oh, I m friends with Samuel L. Jackson, we re best buddies, and they re actually not, but they re sort of throwing that around all the time as a way to sort of move their own things forward, and they re not really showing respect for that relationship.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right, yeah, okay, so they re kind of acting like they re creating relationships and managing them with you, but really it s kind of a facade to make sure they get their own stuff done.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
Got it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
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And then the last group are the D s, which are the drains.
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And it s important to note that there are two types of drains that will come into your life.
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And the first is just the basic, this is somebody who they just they only care about themselves, they re self obsessed.
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They basically only want what they want.
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They re really, really focused on themselves.
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They don t care about you.
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And by the time you re done talking to them, you feel physically and emotionally drained because they just spent the entire time asking you for things or trying to get things from you.
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But the other side of drains, the other group are the people who they are in such a state of either pain or need in their life.
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that they can t fathom doing anything other than asking and trying to get whatever it is that they get.
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And the interesting thing is that there are probably times in all of our lives where we do fall into the category of being a drain.
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where we need that attention and we need that.
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But the thing is, in our networks, we really need to pay attention to how many of those people there are and how much time we re devoting.
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Because if we re spending a ton of time with those drains, it s hard to be as supportive and helpful to our advocates.
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and we re not actually spending enough time with the advocates because we get so caught up in trying to solve all of the problems for the drain.
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It actually ties back to when I was a teacher.
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You want to be very, very careful of trying to solve somebody s problem because if you re just doing everything that you can to solve it and you re never giving them the opportunity to learn something on their own or develop something on their own, they become incredibly dependent
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and then they don t actually learn.
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They don t actually move forward.
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So you always want to help as much as you can, but also understand that they re going to have to kind of move things forward, and you don t want to enable them.
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Ah, interesting.
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So what do we do?
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We just kind of cut and run?
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I don t think so.
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I think, you know, depending on the type, some people, yes, I think if you re encountering a drain that s just a pain in your life and it s really difficult, then yes, you probably need to cut that relationship out because it s going to be damaging to you.
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But if there are people that you really care about, but they ve sort of hit that point of they re kind of a drain on the resources, that s when you have to be very conscious for yourself of what are you willing to give.
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How much can you really do for this person?
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And then you have to be honest with them about where you re at and what you can actually do.
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I think one of the reasons why drains will take a lot from us is that we don t set those boundaries.
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And we ll just sit there and listen to them for the three hours or whatever.
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And we won t say, listen, I really understand sort of where this is coming from, but I only have this amount of time.
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or I can t really help you with this particular aspect.
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There might be other things I can help you with, but this is not what I m going to be able to help you with.
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You re killing me.
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Exactly.
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And we talked pre-show about different archetypes that you can find at events.
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Were those the archetypes or are there different archetypes of people as well?
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Yeah, those are different archetypes.
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You got lots of archetypes.
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Archetypes, man, I love it.
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I m a fan of shoving people into pigeonholes.
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I love it.
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Well, it makes it easier, you know?
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It does.
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I mean, look, if we re gonna systemize social intelligence, archetypes are the way to do it.
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I don t know a better way.
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So, I would love to hear about these as well because if we re at events, which many of us are in larger social environments, if we can find out what type of person someone is, it makes it a whole lot less terrifying to go up and
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and introduce ourselves or ask for something or introduce them to somebody else or anything in that category at all.
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What are these archetypes and how do we identify them and then how do we use them for ourselves?
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Sure, so the best way to think about it is think about it like an ocean.
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So you come to this event and basically you re now in the ocean.
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And the first archetype that you re gonna encounter are sharks.
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And sharks are very easily spotable because they want as much attention as possible.
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So this is the person who s kind of moving from event to event.
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Their eyes are darting around to try and find, like, who s the most important.
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They re in clusters of people, and they re, like, just kind of talking about themselves.
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They re handing business cards, in some cases, like, into somebody s face before they even halfway introduce themselves.
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And they re really all about just, like,
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Moving through the room like they re the work the room people and if you get stuck with a shark Chances are you re gonna be cornered in a section of that party and you re gonna have a lot of trouble kind of getting away Because they re just all about telling you about themselves and sort of pushing their own agenda It s one of those things where with those types you ve really got to be very firm and just kind of be like Yeah, great to hear about
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You know, your insurance company or your skincare worker or whatever.
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I ve got somebody else in a meeting.
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I m going to head over to them.
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Really nice meeting you.
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And then just kind of get out of there because sharks will just dominate.
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Eject.
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Exactly.
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And the next group are what I refer to as the dolphins.
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So the dolphins are the people who cluster together.
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So they came there because their friend told them to come there.
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So they re like, I m going to cluster with my friends so that I don t feel awkward about the fact that I don t know anybody here.
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So what they ll do is they ll create this little cluster of people.
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And for the most part, they do not want anybody to enter into that cluster.
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Why?
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Because they re nervous?
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Is that why?
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Sometimes it s nerves and other times it s that they have established for themselves this sort of sense of like, we are the same and anybody who comes into this circle is different.
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So they don t want new people in.
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And it could be that, you know, they
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had a really intense conversation right before they went to the event.
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So now they get to the event and they ve clustered because they want to keep talking about their own thing.
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And they re not actually interested in having anybody else sort of enter into the conversation.
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So dolphins tend to cluster and they tend to be less likely to have a conversation with you.
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And one of the best ways to deal with sort of dolphin cluster is identify one person, basically talk to that person, no matter what the cluster is, there s always somebody who s not engaged.
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There s always somebody who s not actually listening to the 10th time that so and so, you know, drop their hair dryer down the sink or whatever, you know, and they re basically open to that opportunity.
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So going up to that cluster and just saying hello to one person can often get you into that group.
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And sometimes they just break off from the cluster and they start having a conversation with you.
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So it s like a crystal.
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You gotta go in there and disrupt it, destroy it.
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Exactly, exactly.
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Fusion or fission.
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Yeah.
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Got it.
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Alright, back to the show.
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So the third group are what I like to refer to as those who are drowning.
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And every party, every event that you go to, there are people who they are not happy about the fact that they are there.
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So they have found a corner where they can look at their cell phone, they ve found a section of the bar, or they ve found an area where they can eat food.
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And they re just kind of standing around.
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And in many cases, they re just suffering, they are not very happy.
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And they re just kind of standing around sort of in that world.
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And that ties to the last archetype, because you can help these people by being the last archetype, which is the lifeguard.
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And the lifeguard is the person who looks around the room for who s feeling uncomfortable, and goes up to them and says hello.
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And if you are having a lot of anxiety about approaching a cluster of dolphins, or you re looking at a room and you re just like, Oh my god, I don t know who to talk to.
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If you look around for somebody who s just kind of standing on their own and feeling kind of awkward, it s very rare that if you go up and say hello, that they re going to be rude to you or mean to you.
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Now, every once in a while, you are going to encounter somebody who s like, I don t want to talk to you.
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But most of the time, you re going to find somebody basically be like, thank you for talking to me, because they feel awkward, they feel kind of miserable.
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So it s a really great tool to just kind of look around and say, okay, who is just hanging around and doesn t seem to be having a good time.
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And maybe I should go up to them and see if they re open to having a conversation.
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Now, this makes sense.
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The problem is, of course, we have to get over the idea of actually approaching and starting a conversation, which is not that bad, especially once we ve got these archetypes in play.
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And, of course, again, we talk about this a lot in social capital if people are interested in kind of getting the basics for that and then getting more advanced with it, because this stuff parallels really, really well.
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What about the gate strategy?
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We talked pre-show about having a good balance with our networking and relationship development, and I like the gate strategy because, again, I love giving more than anything.
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That s the whole idea behind social capital is give, give, give.
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But as we mentioned earlier, you still have to ask.
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There s also other parts of this relationship.
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I think keeping them in mind as a whole instead of just
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ask, ask, ask, take, take, take, or give, give, give, having the gate strategy in play is very helpful and useful and makes it more palatable, frankly, and sustainable.
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Yeah, so the way I always sort of look at it is that what you basically want to do is you want to make sure that you re always opening and closing the gate every day.
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So every day you make it a point to give without expectation of return and really ask yourself, did I actually give?
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Or was there something that I was expecting?
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Or was there something that I was trying to do?
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Really make sure that you actually are giving without expectation of return.
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Every day you should be asking for something that you want.
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Because most of the time, we spend a lot of time, I call it the giving fix.
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So every time we give, it releases oxytocin, we feel good, and we can get hooked on just sort of giving, and as a result, never let people know what it is that we need.
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Never ask.
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So by making it so that if you are giving, you also make it a point to ask, you re starting to create a balance
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so that you re always letting others know what it is that you need help with.
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And if you re using those different techniques of asking, and you re really presenting different opportunities, and you re asking in very smart ways, you re going to feel comfortable doing it anyway.
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Then the next one is thanking.
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Very, very rarely are people thanked appropriately.
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Most of the time we get the sort of like THX email or somebody like writes, you know, oh, thanks so much for doing that.
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You know, it s like one sentence.
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And very rarely does anybody ever sit down and say, here s what you did.
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Here s what it meant.
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and here s why i appreciate you for it so if every day you take the time to say who did something for me that i really appreciated and then say how can i thank them what can i do to say thank you and really taking the time to thank them appropriately it can be an incredibly powerful thing you know
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and unfortunately I probably do send the occasional thanks so much for this, but I feel like when I do that it s somebody that I already knew.
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But I don t know if that s better, right?
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Shouldn t I be thanking my friends more?
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Although I do reciprocate a lot more with them too by actually making intros for them and responding every time they ask me for something, but how do we make a thank you that we need to do repeatedly not scripted, canned, and actually meaningful?
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I think it s just a matter of going back to a lot of the stuff we talked about earlier of specifics.
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It doesn t take that much longer to write one or two sentences specifically as to what this person did and what it meant.
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So thanks so much for introducing me to this person.
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We had a great conversation about this and I really appreciate you taking the time to do so.
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That can be enough because now they know why they re being thanked.
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And they know what kind of impact it had.
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So they re still thinking about us.
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And we don t have to write this massive letter about it.
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But we re getting specific.
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And we re making sure that they know the impact of what they did.
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Because if they know the impact of what they did, chances are, they re going to think about helping us in the future.
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And they re going to say, wow,
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that really helped Jordan before, I m gonna do something similar, because I got this very specific thank you showing me that what I did worked.
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Excellent.
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I think that makes sense, because you don t just thank profusely, you actually say, look, here s how I implemented it, here s what I implemented, here s what happened.
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That s a real thank you, and it s basically a testimonial case study for them.
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if they need that type of thing.
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Well, thanks so much for coming on.
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Of course, if you want more from Michael, we re gonna have a master class in our Social Capital product as well at theartofcharm.com slash social.
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That ll be just a small part of a bigger networking and relationship development course from AOC.
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Thanks so much, Michael.
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Have a great evening, and we ll talk soon.
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Thank you, Jordan.
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Man, Jason, that was one of the best shows we ve done in a really long time.
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I like that.
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And this is your find, if I m not mistaken.
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So, props.
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Props.
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Yeah, so much there.
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You know, there s something special when he just breaks down the different archetypes.
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I mean, as anyone who s an AOC fan knows, we love archetypes.
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We ve got the value archetypes.
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We ve got the personality archetypes.
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that we teach at bootcamp, that we ve taught in the toolbox, and he s got the networking archetypes and the gate strategy.
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I mean, this is all stuff that I m just like, I want to adopt this and, you know, AOC-ify it as well, because this just fits so well with what we do, and it s very well codified as to what we actually practice and what we teach in social capital as well, so that master class that comes out of this is also excellent, so I m very stoked for this.
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And the boomerang, I mean, how many of those do we know?
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We just know tons of those.
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We know tons of all of these personality archetypes, but honestly, now that we know what we re looking for, we can be like, ah, that, don t want that.
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We want to look for the advocates and these types of different archetypes.
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Now that we can spot it, man, and we can see that behavior in ourselves too, as with any archetype, the mirror on ourselves is always a little bit scary as well.
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And that s even more important because then we can eliminate that type of behavior in ourselves.
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If you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Michael on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as, of course, his book and resources mentioned on the show, including the social capital course that we talked about here from The Art of Charm.
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You can tap our album art in most mobile podcast players to see the show notes right on your phone.
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I m also on Twitter.
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I share a lot of stuff that doesn t make the show notes, and I engage a lot there as well.
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I m at theartofcharm on Twitter.
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Bootcamp details, bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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Remember, we re sold out a few months in advance.
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Now have a great week and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to The Art of Charm.
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