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Hi, it s Ilyce Lunan, host of Pulling the Thread.
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Today is a special episode, the second of our four-part series on mystical systems.
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Today I m joined by Jade Luna, an Asterian astrologist.
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Hi, it s Elise Lunen, host of Pulling the Thread.
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On this show, we pull apart the web in which we all live to understand who we are and why we re here.
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Pulling the Thread is about big questions.
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Why we do what we do, how we can understand our own experiences within a larger spiritual and historical context, the ways in which we might begin to understand ourselves and each other better, and what s required to heal ourselves and our world.
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I ll be joined in conversation by luminaries and wise elders, those who have laid tracks on their work and lives to help us bring meaning and understanding to a world that often feels chaotic and overwhelming.
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My hope is that these conversations spark moments of resonance and plant tiny seeds of awareness so that we might all collectively learn and grow.
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The more we let go of, the more we receive, I feel that I live in that light.
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I believe that consciously.
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I m not trying to control what the universe brings to me.
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I believe it knows exactly what s right for me.
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I m an astrologer, so I believe in the cosmos.
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I believe it s a conscious, not an unconscious entity, which I believe a lot of New Age thinking is treating the universe like it s unconscious and doesn t really know what it s doing.
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I think we re still dealing with fear that we re still collectively.
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I want to control things because I m afraid of what s going on.
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So I view a lot of New Age beliefs as being clout in that fear.
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This is the second part in our special series on mystical systems.
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Last Monday we heard from Courtney Smith on the Enneagram, next week we ll learn about Tarot and Kabbalah, and the following week about human design.
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That voice you just heard is Jade Luna, who studies what he calls Asterian astrology.
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He claims to be the first Westerner to reconstruct Hindu astrology into a Greco-Roman format.
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As you ll hear, there are parts of the system that are familiar and others that are wholly different, though his readings will align with what you might have heard in the past, and then some.
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My reading with Jade was quite wild and very specific down to health tendencies and the structure of my brain.
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Our conversation today goes way beyond astrology though.
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Jade and I talk about our fear of darkness, why waking up from what can sometimes feel like a collective nightmare is part of the point, and the confluence of seeds that have been planted in the past that are pushing us toward responsibility.
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We even get into global warming and predestiny.
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It s a fascinating one.
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I just wanted to note that Jade and I recorded this episode at the end of August, during the Los Angeles hurricane and before the Israel-Hamas war.
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Okay, let s get to our conversation.
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Let s just start at the beginning.
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What is Asterian astrology?
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Is it yours?
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Where did it come from?
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Take us through it.
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Thank you for asking that question.
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It s a question I d love to answer.
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This is the oldest system of astrology on earth.
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It came from
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an ancient astronomer named Hipparchus.
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And Alexander the Great and his priests went to Alexandria, Egypt and learned this system from the priests of, when he took over the ancient Mediterranean world, he brought a book with him called the Yavana Jataka.
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And it s an ancient astrological text.
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And he left it in Northern India, because he took over Northern India.
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The priests of India took the book, the Yavana Jataka, and took part of the information in it, merged it into what they already had, a Vedic system of astrology.
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And what modern Vedic astrology is, it s a combination of ancient Indian astrology…
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But the Yavana Jataka mixed in it.
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So oddly enough, when I lived in India, I had a silent guru.
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Meher Baba was the don t worry, be happy guru of the 60s.
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And one of his disciples was my guru.
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And we had to be silent.
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We had to be silent for months at a time.
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So out of pure boredom and having to be silent, I took the book, the Yavana Jataka, and translated it back to its original Roman Greco format.
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It was originally Greek and then went Roman Greco, and I translated it back just purely out of boredom, not knowing that it had never been done before.
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I started using it to make predictions, and the year that I started using this particular system was the year that my business just took off.
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The things that this particular system can predict is a 27 sign system.
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By the way, all ancient systems,
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The priests of ancient time reserved the 27 signs for the priest caste and gave the 12 signs to the public.
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They re like, the public s ignorant.
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We ll give them 12 signs.
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We ll keep the 27 to ourselves.
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This goes on to this day in India.
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The 27 signs, which are called nakshatras in India, are relatively hidden from the public.
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But if you talk to a Brahmin priest, and if you ever go to my Instagram, you can see that there s several Brahmins that I was very close to in India.
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And one of them was one of my better friends.
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And if you talk to Brahmins about astrology in India, they literally know nothing about the 12 signs.
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They only know these 27 signs.
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I ve also been able to show that French priests, even Catholic,
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Once I got into astrology, on my Instagram, if you go down, you can actually see the manuscripts of 27 signs.
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So these signs are ancient.
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I did not create this system.
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I translated it.
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But where I did influence it is modernizing it.
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so people could understand it, and using names that would be relatively familiar.
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And I created Roman-Greco names, because Western astrology, like Sagittarius, this is Latin.
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I wanted to kind of coexist with these particular terms that we re familiar with, so I created the Roman-Greco version of it, so it would kind of match what we knew, it being a Latin-based system as far as the names are concerned.
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But no, I modernized it, that s for sure.
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I have one book out.
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called Hysterian Astrology, The Lost System of Alexander the Great.
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My translation is up front, the actual Yavanajataka is in the back.
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I was only allowed to use three quarters of it though.
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I was only given permission to use three quarters, so 25% of it is missing.
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You re not allowed to actually publish the whole entire manuscript like that.
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Then I wrote another book called 27 Stars, which is a modernized version for the age we live in for this ancient system.
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What is it about the number 27 that s so significant?
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The belief is there s 108 faces of God.
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If you wear like a mala bead,
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it s gonna have 108 beads on it.
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This was another way that I proved that the ancients used this system because these 27 signs are dissected into four quadrants.
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27 times four is 108.
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The belief is there s 108 faces of God.
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The 27 main, you dissect them by four, you get 108.
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Proving again, the ancients used this system.
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So the mala beads that we chat with,
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have 108 beads on it, also reflecting these 108 signs or personalities of the divine.
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I ve had a reading with you, but I can in no way speak to the differences between Asterian astrology and what we sort of know.
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How do you even classify our primary astrological system?
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Western astrology?
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I don t even view Western astrology as a real science.
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And it was created by Catholicism, so people would never use the system we re talking about.
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Catholicism created anti-divination laws, making astrology illegal.
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They put out a wrong system, so we would never use this system anymore.
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So wherever Catholicism spread, you get tropical Western astrology, which is our old calendar.
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I ll explain that here in a minute.
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Wherever Catholicism did not grow, India, Tibet, Egypt, you still get the stars in the sky in these ancient systems.
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Western astrology is the only system that has ever existed that does not actually use the stars in the sky.
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The first day of Aries is the first day of spring.
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If you wrap the 12 months around that particular date, which is the spring equinox date, that s a calendar.
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That has nothing to do with the stars in the sky.
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An astrologer in ancient time had two jobs, creating calendars and observing the stars in the sky.
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Because Catholicism banned actually observing the stars in the sky, they put out the calendar in replacement of the zodiac.
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So the zodiac in the sky moves one degree every 72 years is called the procession of the equinox, and the stars follow that movement.
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astrology doesn t observe that.
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It just observes the calendar months, and that s why the seasonal months that it uses kind of stay the same.
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But no, you have to consistently observe the zodiac.
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It is constantly changing.
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So yeah, astrology is far more complicated.
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And I think the fact that people think that everybody born the same month as them has the same personality, that s the most general form of mysticism that has ever existed in anything.
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Real astrology?
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It s really advanced.
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Ancient master astrologers always used the 27.
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So what Western astrology is, it s an old calendar that has nothing to do with the stars.
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And that s why I make the joke that Western astrology has predicted the age of Aquarius five times since 1960.
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Because they actually have no idea how to predict the age of Aquarius.
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You have to observe the wobble of the Earth s axis in relationship to the stars to actually predict the age of Aquarius.
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It s so easy to do, yet because they don t use the stars in the sky, they have actually no idea how to use it.
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So the age of Aquarius does not start until 2500.
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And any astrologer that uses the stars in the sky
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will tell you the exact same thing, but you get Western astrology.
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Oh, there s a conjunction in Aquarius, so it s the age of Aquarius.
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Those conjunctions happen all the time.
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That s why they keep predicting the age of Aquarius over and over again.
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You know, the 60s were dawning on the age of Aquarius, and here we are predicting the age of Aquarius again because they think Pluto s gone into Aquarius.
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But the truth is, this pandemic started in real astrology,
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when Saturn and Pluto went into Capricorn at the same time, which was January of 2020.
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That s how I predicted this pandemic publicly a year in advance.
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Because Capricorn rose over constraint and feeling controlled by our environment, which even though I said the pandemic would go into the background in 2023,
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the coronavirus is going to stay until 2040, the whole time that Pluto s in Capricorn.
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But I said it s going to become a background story as of 2023 when Saturn goes into Aquarius.
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So Saturn went to Aquarius this year, hence nuclear fusion, AI.
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All these things are connected to Saturn in Aquarius, because Saturn governs a big part of our earthly ages down here.
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So in short, Western astrology is an old calendar.
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Believe it or not, we should be using it for our seasonal months, though.
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The first day of Aries should be the first day of spring.
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That is when we should be celebrating January 1st.
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That should be our beginning of the new year is spring equinox.
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But that s a calendar.
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It s a 12-month calendar, where the 12 signs in the zodiac, that is very different than what it is.
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And Catholicism banned that part, observing the zodiac.
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Well, I m over my skis here, but shouldn t there really also be 13 months when you think about lunar cycles?
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And this is a Sun calendar instead of a lunar cycle.
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And 13 times 28 is 364.
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So we re kind of off anyway.
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Yes, it is.
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All of that is true.
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All of that is real.
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Yeah, the lunar calendar is still used in India.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I m Rachel Martin.
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So for people who are unfamiliar and they do a chart, are you just determining charts in a similar way or is there a totally different?
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Because I feel like astrology, Western astrology,
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in my experience with great astrologers, seems to be quite specific when you start looking at all of the planets together, and rising, and moon, and yada, yada, yada.
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Is it similar in Asterian?
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We use all of that, except for we use 27 signs.
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We have three types of Leos, three types of Virgos, three types of Cancers, and they re all so different from one another, to call them all the same in this system is the reason why priests hid this stuff from the public.
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It s the reason why.
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Why?
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Why was it so threatening?
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Because the belief was that priests earned that knowledge through their desire to be conscious, and the general public was connected to commercialism, which still goes on to this day, spiritually.
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Let s give commercialism to the public, things that may not entirely be 100% relevant or true, and let s keep reserved wisdom for the people that have actually earned it.
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And so that s the belief with priests is that the public hasn t
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desired the knowledge.
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They want commercial wisdom.
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They want to talk about, oh, he s a Scorpio, so he acts like this, or he s a Libra, so he acts like that.
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The depth of how real and deep astrology really is, they want to keep it and reserve it to priests.
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There are people that are mad at me in India, releasing the book 27 Stars.
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So there wouldn t be three variations of every star sign as we know it, right?
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There s a carryover.
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There s what we call a Prometheus sign,
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Part of it is in Gemini, part of it is in Taurus.
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So there s a Prometheus-Taurus, and there s a Prometheus-Gemini.
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They have the same Prometheus qualities, but the Taurus and Gemini will separate them.
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So when you use the fact that some signs overlap with these 27, that s how it all merges together and works relatively well.
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As a matter of fact, Asterian puts the 27 signs together better than even Vedic astrology.
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It s a very sacred system.
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The ancients believe that it s how gods are at play with human beings.
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So as an example, there was an eclipse in December of 2019.
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It was right on Christmas.
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And the eclipse was under the god Typhon.
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Typhon is the Egyptian god Set.
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God of Plagues.
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So we were going to go into confinement because Saturn and Pluto were going to go into Capricorn at the same time, January of 2020.
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Why?
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Well, that eclipse, and eclipses are what I use to see what gods are active on this particular planet.
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Well, Typhon was the God of Plagues.
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You can read the article that came out January of 2019
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they were either going to have a pandemic or a volcanic eruption that made it difficult to breathe.
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I said, one of those two things is going to happen because Typhon rolls over those two things.
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And so you just mentioned that the ancients believed that this is how God intersected with humans.
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I think that is something along those lines.
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So you talk about it as a science, but if you roll it back to its mystical origins, what do you think of it?
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What do you think that this is?
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It s a mystical science.
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OK.
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It s even funny that people get so caught up in their sun signs, because moon signs were significantly more important even in Rome, Greece, all the way up until the 1300s.
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Why?
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Because the moon controls the water and the tides on this planet.
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And human beings are 85% water.
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We are the water element.
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So scientifically, we are more affected by the transitions of the moon than the sun, because we are water.
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That s the reason why ancients used the moon over the sun for your personality.
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There was no culture that used the sun as your main personality.
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So when people get caught up in their sun sign, I kind of laugh anyways, because that s not the way this thing was.
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And how I prove that?
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ancient Roman kings put their head on one side and their lunar sign on the other, and it was sidereal, not tropical.
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So it was a way of showing that Greeks used my system, not tropical Western astrology, because kings still had their birthdays available.
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And you can see on the back, they were using sidereal, which means star-based astrology, not this seasonal calendar that s been flowing around for a while.
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Interesting.
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A friend of mine who s an astrologer, Jennifer Freed, she talks about, this is Western, but obviously everyone sort of understands the sun sign, but the moon is your actual interiority and who you really are.
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And then your rising is how you manage the world, which I really, I m a Pisces moon.
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So that feels more like me than my Sag sun.
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But anyway, no, that s not Asterian.
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I won t take us down a path.
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And then what was it you, I mean, I don t know if it s clear.
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So when people would get their,
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What were they using it for, just divination of events or fate, destiny?
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Here s where the Greeks become the best and greatest astrologers of all time.
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India had an ancient system.
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Matter of fact, the oldest dates of astrology we know are India, Egypt.
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Mesopotamia also had one, but it was very vague in how they used it.
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Egypt and India used it for worshiping gods.
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The moon would go through lunar mansions, these 27 signs, and it would evoke a god every single day.
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It was used for how to honor gods and goddesses.
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Greeks and the priests of Alexander the Great sat down and said, let s formulate a way to use this for human beings, to sit someone down and actually give them a reading.
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The Greeks formulated that.
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This system of astrology was used for that purpose.
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So the Greeks were responsible for creating the act of giving readings.
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Ancient culture used it for major transitions on the planet, like Mesopotamian astrology, Babylonian astrology.
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Their only references are how
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how the planetary alignments affect their kingdom at large, not individuals.
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Interesting.
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Egypt, all gods and goddesses, how to worship their gods, which gods are active on which day.
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Same with India.
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Greeks sat down and said, let s try to find a way to use it for people.
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So interesting.
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So it moves from global to community to individual destiny.
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That s correct.
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So looking ahead at this strange moment that we find ourselves in, as you and I are in Southern California experiencing a hurricane and hoping our power doesn t go out, what s your read on where we are globally and maybe in terms of this country?
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So you could also go to my Instagram and go through articles I had written in 2020, from 2019 to 2020.
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This is when my career stood out, because I was using a system to make predictions that were global, that were actually happening.
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Again, I m listed as the only astrologer on the planet to predict the pandemic beforehand.
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So what did I say in these articles?
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And I have innumerable articles out.
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Weather is going to be our problem.
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Last year, people were trying to get me to predict a world war this year, the use of nuclear weapons.
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I said, no, I m predicting weather problems.
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It s all written already in 2020, 2021.
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I said, our problem is going to be weather.
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I predicted the day that we had the war start.
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I said in February that when Rahu, the North Node, which the nodes are very big and earthy predictions.
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And it s one of the reasons why Western astrologers can t predict stuff like this.
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They actually can t.
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They can try and they can talk about it, but to actually predict it beforehand and see it happen like a pandemic, they don t understand the use of the nodes at all.
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They re like, oh, the North Node s your future, the South Node is your past.
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That is not true at all.
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These particular nodes,
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are monsters, they believe, in ancient time.
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One is the head of a dragon, the other one s the body.
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I ll call it Medusa, the head of Medusa and the body of Medusa.
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And they create our worldly calamity.
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So you can use the North and South Nodes to dictate the problems that are happening on this planet.
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On the week that Rahu, the North Node, the head of Medusa, as I call it, went into Aries, Russia attacked Ukraine.
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Aries, war.
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So when you use this system and you see the gods that are active, like Aries, the god of war, would be invoked, sure enough, the war started right there and then.
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Predicted months beforehand.
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You can see me predicting a war coming because of Rahu, the head of Medusa, going into Aries.
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The larger alignments, like when Neptune really went into Pisces,
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last year.
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I said that in combination with Saturn and Aquarius, the water bearer.
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You can go read articles of me in 2020 saying watch the transitions we re gonna have on this planet due to water.
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And it s just using the real signs.
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Where Western astrology had stuff well into Pisces already, and they re talking about Saturn going into Pisces and all that.
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I said the combination of Neptune in real Pisces.
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with Saturn and Aquarius, the water bearer, that combination is going to bring major weather problems upon this planet.
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Again, I said that in 2020.
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And so here we are.
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How long is this particular period?
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We re going to have this go on for a while.
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There will be a point where these things do start to change.
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But I believe the whole entire time we are in Neptune and Pisces, we are going to be dealing with massive transitions of water on this planet, places that have no water at all, places that have too much water.
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And that s what I was talking about.
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But water becomes a centralized issue, as the outer planets I do use, which a lot of people that use Vedic don t use the outer planets.
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But the outer planets I do use for worldly transitions, along with the more predictable ones, Rahu and Ketu, the north and south node.
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So we have a good seven years of this, minimum.
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And I believe that we re just in the beginning of having – you can read my articles where I said we re going to have earthquakes in places that generally don t have earthquakes.
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We re going to have hurricanes and tornadoes in places we generally don t have, and here I am looking at all this stuff right now.
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And that s not me intuiting anything.
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That s using these 27 signs when you see which specific gods are active at specific times.
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So then how do you align this with something like global warming, for example?
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Is that some predetermined destiny for us?
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Are we just in the hands of a system?
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Well, we re going into a new age.
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It s not the age of Aquarius, it s the age of Chimera.
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So I said 2020 to 2070 is the end of the age as we know it.
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The age of Chimera comes next.
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The age of Chimera, technology aligns with nature.
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We have to feel responsible.
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We are responsible for global warming.
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I believe that strongly.
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I do believe the seed for this type of ignorance was also planted in human beings to do this because the age we re going into, we are going to align with nature, and we have to feel responsible for creating this because we did.
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But was it destiny that we were going to create this?
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Yeah, it was, and that s why it happened.
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As my guru in India would always say, if it happened, it was always going to happen.
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If it never happened, it was never going to happen.
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So it s happening.
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So this is some sort of, in your mind, next evolution or iteration of our consciousness in which we start to take responsibility for the world?
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That s right.
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This is being the destroyers of it, so we correct it and don t do it again, which we won t in the age we re going into.
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Technology and nature will align.
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And because we did create this, but was the seed planted by the universe to create this?
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I believe it was.
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So what s your understanding, then, of AI?
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And is that, in some ways, the same convergence?
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It s funny, because I just talked about this two days ago.
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AI was a subject that was brought up.
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And it s going to duplicate humanity in a lot of ways.
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But it can t duplicate the love and the light that you are.
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It s not going to ever be able to do that, so we re going to retain our power in this human form because the love and light that we contain, it s not going to be able to duplicate that, but it s going to be able to duplicate a lot of other things.
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So it s going to reflect the shadow of humanity, not the light of humanity.
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It s going to reflect the shadow of it.
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It even can play and it can imitate the ego of a human.
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It can t.
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imitate the light of a human being.
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So I believe AI is going to stick around, and I think there are going to be some dark elements to it, and I think there s going to be some light elements to it, but I think it s here to stay.
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So I understand that or feel that very resonantly, this idea that it can duplicate the ego or the darkness.
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Can it be a force of good?
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I don t know.
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I mean, I see it taking away some mundane tasks and maybe amplifying our efforts, et cetera.
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But it is interesting to think about the consciousness in which it s created and whether that s
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high enough?
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I don t know.
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You brought up shadow.
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I m in a phase of my life where I m very interested in that whole conversation.
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Although my therapist, who s a Jungian, is like, shadow and light is tough and has so many racist implications.
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And so using and said, like, realized and unrealized, potentially.
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How do you, when you look at our whole
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history through the lens of this system, what s happening?
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What are we working toward?
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Anything?
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Well, there s several answers to that question, unfortunately.
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There s several answers to that.
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Like, what are we going to?
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There s different levels of consciousness, and there are different stages that human beings are on.
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So, ultimately, I m going to give you the Asterian version, that in the beginning, there was just this infinite ocean of light, unconscious of itself.
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And the second that that infinite light had its first thought of consciousness, the divine mother was born from that thought, created this entire universe, individualized drops of that ocean of light, sent them through creation, which is us, just so we can go right back to where we came from, but conscious of ourselves.
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So we go through this whole entire thing,
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Just to go back to consciousness, and that s why there s always gonna be darkness, because it s through the darkness and the adversity and what I call the universal scrubbing, that dark energy.
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It has to be to create a duality so you can evolve consciously through light.
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So darkness we see is a high, high thing.
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It s the forces actually challenging you to make you stronger in yourself.
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And it also helps you individualize the drop of the ocean that you are.
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We are infinite light.
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We are all one, but we still have individual personalities, as we re displaying two different ones right now.
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So the darkness helps you find that individual light.
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Earth is school.
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It s not our home.
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It s always been a mess like this.
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It s always been like this.
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There was a Hitler in the 40s.
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There was a World War II.
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Everyone thought it was Armageddon.
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There was a World War I and a Spanish flu at the exact same time.
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Everybody thought it was the end of the world.
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Everybody.
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We re just in that age.
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We are going into a new age, so I m not doubting what we re seeing here, but Earth is school.
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It s not your home, and it s programmed to be like this.
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My guru said something I will never forget.
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He said, the world is in perfect harmony, but you are not.
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God created, and he preserved what he created, and he s going to destroy what he created.
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Oddly enough, my guru said she, not he.
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Because the belief is that in our tradition, there is no one belief that s right, by the way.
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As my guru would also say, you wanna know how many spiritual paths there are?
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As many faces you actually see.
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Everybody s face is their own spiritual path.
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So when I say something, I m not coming from the idea that this is a universal truth.
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It comes from a sect of spirituality that I belong to.
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The Divine Mother, she s individualizing these drops of the ocean, and darkness is just this web of energy which helps us find ourselves so we can return back to our original state.
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I don t know if I lost point of your question there.
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Beautiful.
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It s similar to like Takuna Lam or just broken, a broken vessel of light and then you gather those pieces of light.
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I m really interested in, I just read this book that was very in my mind.
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Have you read James Hillman?
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So essentially it s about this idea of the daemon or the soul, the soul s code, the character of calling, I want to say, but essentially this idea that
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Every person has their own unique pattern, destiny, et cetera.
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It all aligns with sort of what you ve been saying.
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And he talks, too, about the bad seed.
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He writes at length about Hitler in a really fascinating way.
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I ve sort of done my best to avoid learning about Hitler.
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But you think about some of these darker seeds in our culture.
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And I feel like we re starting to see more evidence of this type of thinking now.
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I agree with that 100%.
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One thing in our tradition we believe in is that life is a dream that you eventually wake up from.
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This whole thing s an illusion.
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You re in a dream.
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And if you re having a really good dream, you can wake up from that dream going, you know what?
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I want to go back to sleep.
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Let s go back to that dream.
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But if you have a nightmare, you stand up and you turn that light on.
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We believe the dark elements of this planet.
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exist so people get up and turn that light on.
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And so the horrors that exist in this creation are planned, they are destined, so people wake up.
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Death is not our enemy at all.
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We can t treat it like it is.
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We all have to go through karma.
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As we also say in this tradition, there is no evil, there s just karma.
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That s it.
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You cannot end up in experiences that are not karmically right for the patterning of your own spirit.
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That s unnatural.
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Life is a natural process.
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So we accept everything as a part of the naturalness of this planet, whether we like it or not.
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And there are horror stories that exist all throughout creation, so we get up and turn that light on.
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And it works.
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It actually works.
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It s also, please, I don t want people to think that I m talking about it s good to be dark.
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It s not.
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Because first of all, you have to deal with the karma that you create and it s got to come back to you.
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When you really understand karma, you re not going to do dark things anymore.
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You re just going to start aligning with that light because it feels right for your spirit to have a good natural life.
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I want a good natural life.
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I don t want to deal with things that deal with, well, there s two shades of darkness.
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There s spiritual darkness, which is the challenges you have to go through in order to master who you are.
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And then there s unnatural darkness, which is human ignorance.
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I want nothing to do with unnatural darkness.
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But natural darkness, I find to be the goddess Kali.
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And she is planting seeds on this planet.
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So people go, oh, man, I need to wake up.
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I remember in the early, well, actually, late 90s when Y2K was coming.
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I was in India when that happened, and they were saying, we re going to actually hold hands and create a million people on this planet holding hands, and we re going to change the scope of this planet.
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We re going to have light on this planet for eternity, because we re going to have a million people holding hands, meditating on light.
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My guru said, good luck.
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You might even speed up the darkness.
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because you have to actually go through darkness in order to find your light.
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You cannot dispel it.
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You cannot tap into your fear and act like your fear is more important.
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So I see a lot of the, we re meditating on light.
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I see it as fear-based.
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It s like people that don t want to deal with either their karma that they ve created, which we have to deal with our karma, whether we like it or not.
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That s why I m also not a big fan of manifesting.
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I m like, you have to deal with your karma.
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You can t manifest it away.
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And our thoughts, I d love to say, really create our reality, but here s the thing, and I said this on my last podcast, you know, I could think, and I don t have any interest in slapping a person, but I could think about slapping you, and I could think about a heart, and incur absolutely no karma.
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But if I reach over and do it, then I officially have karma.
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Your actions create results.
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Your mind does not.
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Your mind though can create results of your body.
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I believe manifesting can work through your body but if let s say my work slows down and I want to pick up work, I just go create work and that energy will then circulate around because it s in the physical world and create a reaction here on the earth plane.
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I m not a giant fan of the new age world.
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I come from a very pedantic place where you can
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You don t get what you let go of.
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You don t get what you attach to.
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So the idea of attaching to something really is not what, like, be here now and Baba Ram Dass said in the 60s.
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He said you can have whatever you want if you give it up.
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And if you look at your life, and I tell everybody this in my readings.
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If you look at your life, the things you are attached to aren t working at all, and the things you re not attached to are working perfectly, so stop attaching to things.
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So I m an advocate for, I believe, my success as an astrologer.
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I m also a signatory musician, too.
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I believe my success in these two worlds comes not from my ability to attach to something, but to release it and let it go.
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So my astrology job I see as a reflection of how detached I am from the results of it.
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So when we start trying to create results in the world, I believe that can actually create an opposite reaction.
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So there are certain laws that are being created in the New Age world, I think come right from ignorance, like total human ignorance.
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The idea that we control the universe is saying to the universe, I know what s right for me more than you know what s right for myself.
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That is not spirituality at all.
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There is no spirituality in saying, you don t know what s right for me, so I m going to force you to believe what s right for me.
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I treat the universe like it s a divine mother.
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Do I have an intent of wanting things?
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I do.
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I ll sit in front of my statue of Kali, which I ve been worshipping for almost my entire life, saying, if you want this for me, let s do it.
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If you don t, take it away.
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I believe you know it s right for me more than I know for myself, and I believe if you give the mother that power, there s a slight giving she ll actually give you.
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So as an example, let s say you have a child, and the child s like, I want candy.
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I want candy.
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And you say, you know what?
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I don t think candy is good for you.
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I believe the mother thinks just like that.
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But if you say, Mom, I d like candy, but I ll let you decide if I give it or not.
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She s like, you know what?
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Here s a little piece of candy.
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The more we let go of, the more we receive, I feel that I live in that light.
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I believe that consciously.
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I m not trying to control what the universe brings to me.
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I believe it knows exactly what s right for me.
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I m an astrologer, so I believe in the cosmos.
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I believe it s a conscious, not an unconscious entity, which I believe a lot of New Age thinking is treating the universe like it s unconscious and doesn t really know what it s doing.
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I think we re still dealing with fear then.
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We re still collectively, I want to control things because I m afraid of what s going on.
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So I view a lot of New Age beliefs as being cloaked in that fear.
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I love that.
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I think that going back a bit, the distinguishing between natural and unnatural darkness feels so critical to me.
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And this fear of death, this desire to engineer certainty, have control,
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create our own longevity, whatever it is, this like disavowal of all that life gives us, which is inherently loss, so that we can often get bigger, right?
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Sometimes, you know, along the lines of what you re saying, and yet this sort of tight-fisted way that we approach life with this like, that will never happen to me, I will never lose, I will never experience death, grief,
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job loss, whatever it is, these small moments of sort of opportunities of resurrection to grow.
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I love that distinction because I think in general we live in a culture that just has complete fear of darkness.
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It s like the darkness, the womb, the void, where do you think all of this comes from, right?
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The darkness.
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Like I said, I love natural darkness.
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I m not a fan of unnatural darkness, which is human ignorance.
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I m not a fan of that at all.
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Yeah.
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They re different.
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Why do they have the same word?
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That s where I think we get into so much trouble.
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And then you have, and I guess you sort of said you don t believe in absolute evil.
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I do think when you talk to mystics like Llewellyn von Lee, for example, who s Sufi, he talks about darkness, the alchemical, these chords of darkness as being areas that can really only be explored if you are
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armor, not armored, but like, you better be mystical.
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You re not going to go there until you re ready.
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The mother s not going to pull you in until, I call it Kali, that s just my interpretation.
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of the divine, because I ve been worshiping her for years.
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But she s not going to pull someone in there until you re absolutely ready.
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The great mysteries of life, I talk about this, is you can travel 15,000 miles to visit some high-level Buddhist monk for him just to say, eat well, sleep well, be happy.
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The mysteries of the universe are far too deep for the general public.
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And that s why there s commercial mysticism, like Clouck s Western Astrology, right in that.
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And then there s real mysticism.
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Kali,
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creates a web of ignorance around this planet to see who pops their head above it and who doesn t.
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And that s why there s got to be commercial wisdom.
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That s why I m all okay with the ignorance out there, because it s for people that are starting to become a little bit thirsty for spirituality.
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But then there s deep mysteries for the people that are actually really thirsty, are actually really longing for that.
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And they ve earned that through lifetimes of wanting that.
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So you can t just give that energy to the public.
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They ll explode and run right away from the spiritual path when they realize that darkness is a huge part of it.
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They would run, and once you start to advance, that s why you even see a lot of Catholic saints painting pictures of the devil in the end, saying that it was, oh, wait a minute, was this all one and the same, and was it through that force that I got here?
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Is it really an enemy, or is it an ally that I m here because of it?
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I have a question.
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When you think about accessing these more advanced, I would say dangerous energies, is the idea that you must be protected so that you don t become distorted, destroyed, and bent?
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If you think about sort of darkness, absolute darkness, as maybe one of the most powerful energies in this universe, this is like the material that we re transforming, right, on the regular.
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And maybe some of us can take like a tiny bit off the parapet.
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a bit at a time is all that we can sort of metabolize or alchemize, is the idea that if you get too close, I just have a theory looking at some cultural figures, that they get so close to the dark, they think they can handle it.
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And then you watch them, people who profess to be forces of good, creating a lot of harm and devastation.
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Is it because that they think that they can manage it?
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Well, there is some of that.
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There s no doubt about that.
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Yet it s also very strongly connected to Western thinking.
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Now I do know Indian gurus that got caught right up on what you re talking about.
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It s like darkness often – what lures people out of their center is lust, first of all.
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And in my training, if a guru has lust, just stay away from them.
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Because they re actually a stain.
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We call them human garbage cans.
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They re collecting energy from people, and it s kind of their job and their lot to collect karma from those people.
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But here, let s use deities as an example.
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In Greece, you had to – if you re going to worship Hades at a funeral, you had to protect yourself.
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So you had to invoke him, and he would come into your circle and sometimes even lie, like Lucifer would lie and create – but then you go to Tibet, Yaman Taka is actually an incredibly enlightened god.
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It s how we see them intellectually that matters.
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So like when Aleister Crowley, as an example, was talking about demonic spirits and how they ll lie to you, it s because he was trying to control them.
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You don t try to control spirits.
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You don t try to treat them a certain way.
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They re not going to tell you any truths.
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Then you go to Tibet and they re all wisdom.
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These same deities become conscious entities because they re treated like conscious entities.
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The West seems to treat these energies as if they re low vibrational energies.
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So what these low vibrational energies do, they take on the form of a low vibrational energy.
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But then you go to Tibet where Yama, who s Hades, is God.
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And he is the most enlightened of them all because that s the way they treat him.
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So I don t have protective circles.
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I m an Agora.
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An Agora means we only meditate on darkness.
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We don t meditate on light.
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Why?
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Because you already are light.
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You just don t know it yet.
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Your shadow is in the way.
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So we believe in only working with your shadow.
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And the more of your shadow you scoop out, the more light you start to contain and the better your life is.
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And we believe you have to experience an equal amount of light and dark in a lifetime.
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So if you re dealing with your darkness in your spirituality, it makes your life on the outside highly abundant.
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So we re like, if your altar s just reflecting white light, well, expect to experience the dark in the world.
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So if you deal with your darkness in your spiritual life, well, then you get light in the world.
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Since I ve been an Agora, which is a type of worshipper of Kali...
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My altar is so dark in this house that I live in right now, I don t even show it online.
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People just stop calling me.
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I mean, and there s a reason, though, but it s a very conscious reason.
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I am dealing with my darkness in my spiritual life, so I don t have to have so much reflected here.
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Now, we have karma with people.
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I m dealing with dark things with other people in the world right now, but it s karma I actually have with these people from previous lives.
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It s working itself out.
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Meanwhile, my ability to experience abundance in this life
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Has come from actually dealing with my darkness in my spiritual realm, not in my human life.
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So, as we reverse everything very young in a lot of respects focus on the.
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Yeah, and it feels like there s a difference between sort of worshiping or enslaving yourself to darkness or being an agent of darkness and facing or attending to the darkness.
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I don t know how to make that distinction, but a difference between being like, let me unleash darkness in the world versus like, let me acknowledge and appropriately revere darkness, as you said, maybe the most powerful force, right?
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I still am in the philosophy is you can t believe in karma and evil at the same time.
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If you end up in that space where you are being affected negatively by a negative human being who s a dark being, your karma put you there for a reason to learn about something.
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You can see that as an unconscious experience or a conscious experience.
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And, you know, there is a force out there that is keeping everything balanced.
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And so I don t have fear.
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I had a false guru in this life that was dark, actually believed as a reincarnation of Jesus.
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He was blessing his daughter, who he believed was like Mary.
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I wanted nothing to do this place.
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I was there because my girlfriend at the time was actually following this guy.
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And I was just there.
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And I m in documentaries in India.
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about false gurus.
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There s a very, very famous guru, I m not even going to mention his name, that was actually doing tantric rituals with children to gain kundalini powers that he would use on an audience of hundreds of thousands of people.
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And we actually caught him personally.
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I was working at his ashram as an astrologer, and I said, there s something going on here.
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And we put a video out of him.
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Very interesting, if you Google Jade Soluna, there s a lot of negative things that come out about me because his ashram tried to smear me publicly.
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because we were going to go after this guru that was doing these things.
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Meanwhile, I still saw the whole thing as a play.
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You re not going to end up in a situation with a person like that unless your karma actually puts you there.
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So we have to sometimes acknowledge that our karma arranges these situations due to the only goal you re
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A life floor is to realize who you are.
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You re not here for any other reason.
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You re not here for earthly happiness.
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You re not here to have a white picket fence.
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You re here to realize who you are.
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And every situation you go through is a karma cleanse to help you do that, whether it s good or bad.
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And so no matter what, let s say someone has a dark spot in their spirit, that s going to attract them to a person with a dark spot.
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Well, where did this dark spot come from in this person?
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The karma they created their most recent life.
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So they would not be in that situation, experience that darkness, if they didn t actually create the karma to be there.
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So I believe, though, if we keep consciously dealing with our darkness, we keep dispelling it spiritually, which then prevents these things from happening in the world.
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I think our fear of darkness propels us right into these situations we don t want to be in.
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We have to deal with darkness.
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We can t be fearful beings.
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Fearlessness is how you hold the most light.
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So my path and the reason why my altar room on the other side of this door is such a scary one is I don t want to be afraid of anything, because I believe my fear prevents me from holding more light and consciousness.
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So we become fearless and we contain more light and have much better lives.
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As in India, they say a lot of goers become very rich, actually, because of the fact that they are attracting abundance through having an altar completely dedicated to something that might scare the heck out of people.
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And that s because they confronted their fear and are looking at their fear there as opposed to dealing with it in the world.
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And I actually like talking about Agora because I believe there s a lot of Agora s in America by nature.
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It means they re actually wanting to confront their fear very consciously.
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There s no real path for it.
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Christianity is not it.
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That s going to create a lot more fear.
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That belief in the devil is the difference between religions of realization, like Buddhism and Hinduism, and then dogmatic religions that just perpetrate more fear, which perpetrates more ignorance.
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And a lot of these people that create these dark things are also loaded with fear of themselves, kind of like Ted Bundy.
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He could sit there and kill all these women, but when his day came to die himself, I mean, he was…
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So his fear made him that person that actually was that killer.
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So we believe fear is the ultimate evil.
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We believe that creates negativity inside of human beings.
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dark spot you re talking about are people loaded with subconscious fear.
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And so they re preying on people with that fear.
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You remove that fear from them, they just lighten up.
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Yeah, and you re taking that fear and projecting it onto the other, right?
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And then just creating this cycle of unnatural darkness.
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That s correct, yeah.
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So you mentioned briefly that you believe we re here, we re on Earth s school, and that this is not where we re from.
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Where do you think we re from?
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That ocean of light, it s infinitely in everything right now.
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And it exists in all things.
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And so it s, you know, as a Buddhist master or Hindu master will state, it s neither here or there.
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You just merge into it.
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It s right in front of you.
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It s always been there.
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And when you go to sleep at night, you actually tap into the seventh plane of yourself every single night.
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Every single night.
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And that s why my guru said, don t worry about death.
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You re there every single night.
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You love that place.
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It s your favorite place to go.
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So the reason they talk about that gasp in Agora, that last breath, is when you realize the number one fear in Agora is not being able to breathe.
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So that means we believe that the fear of death is actually coming from the fact that you can t breathe in that moment.
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Like you go, oh God, I don t wanna be in a situation where I can t breathe.
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Once that release of breath and you realize that you re gonna breathe on the other side, you immediately release this life and go, oh my God, I can breathe there.
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And that s that Latin ghast.
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And so in Agora, we do meditate on death and that last, where s the unlucky 13 seconds, where that number 13 comes from, is there s 13 seconds where you go into an infinite void of blackness, where you actually have to confront that there is no light, there is no afterlife, and you might just be maggot food in a minute.
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It lasts for 13 seconds and then you take that gasp and you realize you can breathe on the other side and you immediately release your body going, oh, I can breathe there.
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And you go, oh, wow, I was here last night.
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I was here the night.
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As a matter of fact, I might ve spent more time here when I was alive.
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Then I m the earth plane.
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So you just go right back to the place you go every single night.
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That s why sleep is so important.
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Why do we have to go to sleep every night?
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If we don t sleep for a few days, we start going crazy because you tap into your source, that infinite light that s just right there, and you tap into it.
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I love that.
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When you did my reading, and I just gave you a first name, and one of the things that I talk a lot about is my inability, I m a chronic hyperventilator, and when you were just sort of telling me about me, you said that I was born in mercury retrograde and I never learned how to breathe.
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And that if I were born in India, that I would, that this would be one of the focuses of trying to teach me how to breathe.
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So it s interesting.
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It s like, I don t know how to breathe on this side.
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I wonder if I ll be able to breathe on the other.
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You will.
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And I can promise you that.
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And that comes from experiences.
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In Agora, we like, my gurud, in my Agora gurud say,
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No philosophy, just experience.
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Let s chant so we have that experience, so we no longer have to have in the background, it s like, is that real or it s not?
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I m a creature of experience.
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So when I went to India, I didn t want a book telling me what was going to happen.
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I wanted to actually have that experience.
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And I mean, I went to practices, which I still do this day, that another person would go, wow, that s a really scary practice.
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One of them is, you know, an agora has to have a human skull in their house.
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And it s like we meditate with that right on our lap.
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I mean, I did a podcast recently and I told people that I slept in a coffin for three years.
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I had tons of people around that saw my coffin and I was in a Kali room dedicated to the goddess Kali and I d close that coffin every night.
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So I d start asking Kali, it s like, I need more work.
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I really don t have any fear of death anymore.
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And then the fear that I still am working through is the separation from other people.
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It has nothing to do with the act of where I m going.
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I m actually excited about where I m going because I ve had enough experiences, not book, intellect, personal experience.
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I m not great.
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I m just working towards a goal.
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I would meditate on this over and over again.
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No one s special.
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We reap the fruit of our own efforts.
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So when I say I m having this experience, I don t want to separate myself from people like I m important.
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It was a goal of mine.
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a really avid goal.
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I want to get past fear of death and dying.
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I want to do that.
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And so I did.
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And so you start having this experience through chanting and calling would start to take you through that process.
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But then it gets to the point like, I don t have fear of that anymore.
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So what s my next fear?
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I don t want to lose that person.
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But you re going to see them again in a future life.
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That wasn t good enough for me.
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I like them the way they are right now.
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So there s an attachment there.
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I m like, ah, damn, I still have that one.
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And so that s my next work, is letting go of attachment to these forms.
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It s not about death and dying anymore.
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It s about the ultimate of all fears, separation.
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The only thing you or anyone else is afraid of is separation, whether it s separation from your body, the bliss of it, whether it s separation from a person.
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So there s only union and there s only separation.
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They re the only two things that exist in all of creation.
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And they are the opposite of one another.
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We eventually experience union through separation.
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The only thing we are afraid of is separation.
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There is no other fear.
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And final question, when we think about sort of something like this system being a map that s been divined, remembered, whatever it is, is it important that we have these maps?
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I talk about friends of mine who have like a little bit of Oracle abuse, right?
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Where they get to the point where they struggle to make their own decisions without consulting or understanding.
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And I sort of feel, I try to resist.
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Or I try to do it very rarely, once, maybe twice a year.
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Maybe that s not so rare.
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But I don t do it all the time.
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It is.
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There are constant readings.
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Astrology should be your weather forecasting.
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When I give you a one-year report, I m not telling you what to do.
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I m telling you the energies are there.
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It s practical.
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They get readings as long as someone isn t interjecting their opinions on you of what you should do.
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So when you get readings from me, you get good cycles, bad cycles.
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It s like putting on a weather report and seeing a tornado coming or a sunny day.
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You can make better planning in life through proper astrology.
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So I make certain I don t take people s free will away from them, that I help them and encourage them towards their own free will.
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And that s why my readings are about the energy cycle shifts.
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Oh, here s a difficult week of the year.
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Here s a good phase.
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Here s a challenging phase.
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And then the first reading I gave, which is my favorite, we just talk about that blueprint, that ocean imprint that you are, that drop of the soul.
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I love that reading because it s where we tap into that drop.
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But after that, it s just information to help you make and plan for your life to make it better.
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I don t tell people what to do.
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Yeah.
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And I know you are booked way out, but I highly recommend the people
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talk to you, it s really interesting and certainly a different flavor than what people might be used to.
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Absolutely.
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Well, it feels appropriate that Jade and I are chatting on the day that Hurricane Hillary is hitting California.
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He s in the desert and I m in Los Angeles.
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And I loved what he had to say about the reality of global warming and its mystical seeds, that it s time for us to take responsibility for our actions and to understand that we are co-creating our own reality.
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That we are not merely victims of the environment, but we are part of it.
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And I m sure many of you feel that acutely as well.
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And also that these zones, as he said, these moments that feel so dark that they actually make us wake up from the nightmare and turn on the lights.
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Anyway, when I did my reading with Jade, I used a pseudonym, and it s very short.
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It s 20 or 30 minutes, and a friend of mine told me that I needed to talk to him, that it was one of the most accurate experiences she d ever had, and it was
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really wild and very specific and different.
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We ll feel familiar and yet different.
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And he told me things about me that are so true without knowing, obviously, anything about me that I needed to know him more and understand his mind and where he studied.
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I hope you enjoyed this episode.
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And if you do, we ll have him come back.
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If you liked today s episode, please rate and review and tell a friend.
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You can find show notes and full transcripts of the episodes at EliseLoonan.com.
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While there, please sign up for my sub stack.
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I send a short note every Wednesday about topics that are aligned with this show and a deeper dive most Sundays.
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Or follow me on Instagram at EliseLoonan.
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And finally, if you haven t already, please consider picking up a copy of my New York Times bestselling book, On Our Best Behavior, The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to be Good, available wherever you get your books.
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It s an exploration of how women have been conditioned for goodness, men for power, and all the ways we ve been programmed to police ourselves and each other according to these cultural ideas of what it is to be a good woman.
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I d also like to give a huge thank you to my sponsors who make this show possible.
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Please support them the way they support this podcast.
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This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studio.
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If you enjoyed this episode, please listen, rate, review, and follow Pulling the Thread.
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Available now for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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I want to give a shout out to Phil Svitek, Lauren LaGrasso, Mary-Kate McDonough, Ali Brockman, and the entire Cadence 13 team for producing these episodes, and to Valero Duval for my key art.
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Take care of yourselves.
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I ll see you next time.