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Hey, Advanced Selling Podcast friends.
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Hey, are there episodes that you wish you would have bookmarked or episodes in the past that you just quite can t remember what we said?
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Well, hey, you asked for it and we listened.
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This is the best of the Advanced Selling Podcast.
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Let s do it.
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In this episode of the Advanced Selling Podcast, we explore another famous flute solo from our rock and roll archives.
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I share for the first time in public an intimate story about me and my college BFF, Matt.
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And we riff on a question from a burnout SDR listener who just can t do it anymore and give his manager advice on what to do about it.
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Hey, welcome back to the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest-running sales training podcast in podcast history.
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I am one of your hosts, Bill Kasky.
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I m the other host, Brian Neal.
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Good morning, Brian.
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Good morning, Bill.
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We are here today for episode number roughly 700 and some.
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We ve been doing this for 14 long, slogging, glorious years.
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What s our total down?
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Are we like 4 million?
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No, it s 8 million.
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Is it really?
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It s 8 million.
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I just told someone 4 million.
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We re calling back.
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8 million?
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Tell them 8 million.
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9 million.
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OK, we re off by a million.
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We re 9 million?
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9 million downloads.
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Well, we get about 150,000 a month.
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So in the course of a year, that s 1.8, 1.5, 1.6 million.
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Me likey.
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9 million people.
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Me likey.
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They re all on our LinkedIn list.
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So if you want to be the 9 millionth and first LinkedIn group member, go to advancelinkpodcast.com slash LinkedIn.
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And they re all clamoring for us to speak at their sales event this fall.
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I don t know how we re going to do it.
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And next winter, too.
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And so you need to get in while the getting s good.
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You send us an email.
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Put come see us into the subject line.
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We just got one.
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Did you see the one from the student?
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This was great.
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The kid from, I think he s from North Dakota State University sent us a note.
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They ve got a sales program up there.
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Oh, cool.
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So I m not sure NDSU will be able to get the checkbook out.
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To the extent they need to.
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To the extent that they need to.
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But we ll still have the conversation.
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Maybe it could be sponsored.
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It could be sponsored.
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Kind of like wealthy alumni sponsor college football coaches.
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Maybe the Bill and Brian show can come on the road to North Dakota.
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And by the way, we don t publicize this very much.
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Brian, I may get in trouble for saying this.
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But if you want to bring us in digitally, you can do that, too.
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We have done that before, where if you don t want to, you know, maybe it s not a full day program, and maybe it s an hour or two, and we have a studio here, we can broadcast live.
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And you probably have a studio there.
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You can receive live.
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So that s another option.
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It doesn t always have to be a face-to-face, although it s more fun face-to-face.
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Can we do a hologram?
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Like Pete Diddy did with Tupac.
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Didn t Tupac do a, wasn t that back in the day, Tupac did a?
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Thank you, everyone s nodding.
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The studio audience.
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Our new partners.
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We have new partners in the podcast, don t we, Bill?
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We do.
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They re here in the recording studio.
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Are we ready to reveal that yet, or are we going to wait?
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Yeah, holograms.
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I spoke to a guy who, Kevin Harrington, who s on Shark Tank.
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His partner, they re doing some hologram business.
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And they re using it for speakers.
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And it s not just about dead speakers.
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It s about, you know, I want to speak to a group in California.
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I don t want to leave my studio.
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But they want to feel like I m there.
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And that s how they re using it.
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And it s really interesting.
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Mm, hologram.
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Can they reduce your body fat percentage in a hologram?
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Absolutely.
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Can we do that?
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So I ll go shirt off.
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Shirt off with a. I don t know about that.
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It might be a little much.
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You know, we re big music people here.
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And I m always intrigued by interesting musical solos.
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And I found another one that I had not had on the radar before, which is a very long, very interesting flute solo by a 70s band.
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We did the xylophone.
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This is a flute solo.
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So we might have to make a list of your favorite flute soloists.
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Ian Anderson, obviously, is the obvious choice there from Jethro Tull.
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But this is from a song that I ve heard a thousand times and didn t realize there s actually a flute solo in here.
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Take a listen to this.
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Do you know the song, Bill?
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the band is firefall oh yeah god they re good this song aren t they good
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So the song Strange Way by Firefall.
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Yeah.
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Great 70s band.
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Was that number one?
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Yacht Rock.
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Was that their number one?
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Yeah.
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No.
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They had several.
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You Are The Woman had to be their best top hit, right?
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OK.
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You are the woman that I always dreamed of.
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Wasn t there one called The Grim Reaper or The Grim Reefer?
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Are you thinking about Blue Oyster Cult?
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Yeah.
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Isn t that the same band?
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No.
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This is called Firefall.
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I m just kidding.
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A little softer.
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I m just kidding.
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I did a little trivia for my family last night.
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How d that go?
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My wife s family.
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Not very well.
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I was thinking about, you ever remember the band?
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Now, this is not 80s or 70s.
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This is 60s.
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Hermits Hermits.
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Oh, of course.
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They had six to seven hits.
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They had seven hits that six made the top 10.
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Do you know what they were?
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I got one of them.
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OK.
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Something Tells Me I m Into Something Good.
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That good?
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Hermits Hermits.
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Yeah.
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And then there s a.
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There s a gal s name, it s like Penny Lane, but it s not that.
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It s, oh, Hermits Hermits Sings.
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Is her girl s name, right?
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And it is, it is.
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Mrs. something?
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It s Mrs. All right, Drozen.
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Doug Drozen, where are you?
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We need the list of Herman s hermits.
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Herman s hermits.
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This is fascinating for people, I m sure.
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That is Mrs. Brown.
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You ve got a lovely daughter.
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Very good.
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I m Henry.
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Henry VIII?
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Yeah.
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They sing Henry VIII?
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I m Henry VIII, I am.
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We re losing our millennialism.
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They re all sleeping over here.
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One more.
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There s a kind of hush.
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Do you remember that one?
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There s a kind of hush all over the world tonight.
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Anyway, let s move on.
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My best friend in college and I used to love the
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movie s top gun, and something tells me I m into something good.
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It s featured in one of the movies, and he and I, as a joke, would always hold pinkies and sing that song together when we were in college.
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It s a good song.
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We ll leave it at that.
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Hey, before we get into our topic today, which is real interesting, by the way, we re going to have a little riff on SDRs and cold calling and that sort of thing.
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Question for you, are you frustrated at all by your leaky sales funnel with prospects falling through the cracks and deals that don t close?
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Everyone has a
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that issue to some degree I know, well, there is a solution for you.
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Outreach.io, the leading sales engagement platform, supports sales reps and their managers by making it simple to humanize and personalize communication at scale, automating that soul-sucking manual work
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and dramatically increasing the productivity efficiency of all of your revenue-generating teams.
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You can check them out at outreach.io forward slash ASP.
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That s outreach.io forward slash ASP.
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Chat with them and receive a free copy of their book on sales engagement called The Book on Sales Engagement, which I just love reading.
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Outreach.io forward slash ASP.
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Check them out.
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Our good friends at Outreach.
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Topic.
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This is a tough one here.
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It s loaded.
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We need some Barry White music.
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I saw a guy commented the other day.
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He goes, I love your podcast.
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Thanks so much.
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And I love the Barry White bits.
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There s one.
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And then the rest of the millennials are googling, who s Barry White?
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I think he was on an episode of South Park, wasn t he, I think, or something like that?
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He could have been.
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Yeah, I m sure he was.
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So the topic today, Brian and I have discussed this back and forth and off and on on the podcast and just in our conversations.
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And it s about, what d you say, Brian?
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It s about cold calling, and it s about the outreach that must take place, usually in a sales development, SDR, BDR, that role where it s the first person who s got to make the 100 calls a day or a week, and they re qualifying leads, and then they re throwing the leads to
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after they become qualified over to a SDR, BDR, whatever the other person is.
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Anyway, it s just a mishmash of acronyms to me.
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But the point is that, is there a better way?
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And you ve heard from people, I ve heard from people, that just get so burned out by this 100-call-a-day thing.
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Or the whole, in fact, I ve even heard, and this is an indication something s wrong, I ve even heard that people say, we can only put SDRs in that role for a year.
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They ll burn out.
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They do.
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And I feel like, shouldn t that tell you something about how you re doing it that maybe is not right?
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Or are we just going to assume that the only way to generate new business is by burning somebody out for a year?
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Yeah.
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Just think of the whole thing.
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So this is actually a sparse.
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We had a listener.
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His name is David.
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Leave his last name out.
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And he said, he was really, you could read the emotion in his note here.
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He says, I need some help.
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I am F-blinking burned out.
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I m making cold calls.
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I m an SDR with every dial.
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I m hoping no one picks up the phone.
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My company has done little to build product awareness in the marketplace.
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And he calls on C-level execs.
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He either gets chewed out because they re sick of getting cold calls, or they just hang up on him.
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And I m sitting there going, why does someone think this is a good way to do this?
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It just doesn t make any sense.
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And what we re not talking about, I think people get all antsy here when we say you shouldn t be making cold calls.
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This is like this binary thing, no.
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And I don t believe that to be true.
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I don t either.
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I don t either.
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And I also don t believe that by not making cold calls means that I m going to just sit around and wait for the phone to ring.
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The people that are on the cold call deal, they re like, it s 100 or 0.
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And I m like, no, it s not.
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It s not that extreme on either side.
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There s a balance to this whole thing, and there s a strategy and a little bit of art and a little bit of science to all of it, as I see it.
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So I think your first bet is we re just riffing here, unprepped, on purpose.
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is that we have to step back from this perspective.
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If I m this guy s sales manager, even worse, if I m this guy s CEO, this is, I m assuming, a tech company.
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Probably.
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And a SaaS company.
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And I ask any SaaS owner, what do you want?
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Most of them want, which is interesting to me, too, most of them want an exit.
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So their intentions are kind of, most of these guys want to build a product, scale it up, and exit.
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And you get pride.
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That s a good thing.
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I m not saying it s a bad thing.
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I m a capitalist.
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It s great.
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But you ve got to say, so what s the best, quickest way to your exit, then?
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And is this how you want your people to be?
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Now, some people don t give a rats about their people at all.
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They don t.
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And that s fair.
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As long as they own that, they re good.
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But what a lot of these people have is they have this good culture thing going.
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Like, oh, it s people.
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Boom.
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We got beer.
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Duh.
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We do this, things.
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We got the dog running around the neighborhood.
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We got Shmedium t-shirts.
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We got scooters all over the place.
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And you get this message.
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Then you get that.
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It doesn t line up.
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It doesn t line up.
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So either say you re a sweatshop, and you re banging out 100 calls, and you re here at 7, and you call from 8 to 6.
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You got the auto dialer.
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That s the gig, auto dialer.
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You can get up for 30 minutes for lunch, save that, or get this more aligned with how I think that you really want to be, which is a good, fun people culture where it s nice to be.
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Yeah, and I think a lot of times the emphasis, and I like what you said about a lot of times the CEO is really looking for the exit and everything they do in the business.
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And again, we re not passing judgment there.
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But you have to understand that everybody knows that.
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This is not a hidden thing.
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Everybody knows that the CEO gets the payoff for the exit.
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So everybody knows that every day they do this and it succeeds.
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They may get paid for it, but they know the big payday is for the CEO.
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And that s fine.
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But you ve got to understand that.
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Absolutely.
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And the second thing I think we do is we spend a lot of time on tactics.
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I was talking with a friend the other day, and he leads a team of SDRs.
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He s not a client.
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But we were talking, and he goes, we re working on this approach, and we re trying this.
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And if in the third minute, they say this, and the objection goes here, and he s got it all decision treed out, I m like, I m not sure you re working on the right thing.
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To me, the right thing to work on is,
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and you and I haven t talked about this, so maybe you disagree with this, is what s the customer journey from the time, and we said this on the last podcast, from the time that a person first hears from you.
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So Brian, let s say you re on the phone, you re banging out 100 calls a day.
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Do we know what the customer journey is from that point?
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From the time he answers the phone, or she picks up the phone, and you re on the phone, do we really have that mapped out?
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Or we just want to urge them to make an appointment or to set a schedule or something?
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What is the journey?
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And I think if you start to look at that, and we like to use this unawareness to awareness
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Comprehension.
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Comprehension to conviction to action.
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What s the journey they need to go on?
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And then your first call should be step one on the journey.
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Yep.
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So let s say that, is it OK if I continue?
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Oh, yeah, keep going.
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OK.
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So let s say that one of the parts of the journey is the customer has to at least realize they ve got a problem.
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Because if the salesperson SDR calls and starts asking them what their problems are, and I don t even know you, I m not going to spend one second.
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That s why they get hung up on.
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So what if the step one of the journey is a realization on the customer s part that I even have a problem worth looking at?
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Now, that might be an interesting way.
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So what would be the content that would help that?
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Would it be a webinar?
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Would it be a blog post?
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Would it be a checklist?
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So if you called and said, hey, I know that you re busy.
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This is not a sales call.
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I m calling because I wanted to share with you a link to something that we found very useful.
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We just wrote this.
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It s a 10-point checklist.
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How do you know if you re ready to invest in the cloud or whatever?
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Would you like to get a copy of it?
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At least then, now there s an engagement.
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There s a relationship versus hammering calls out and getting hung up on.
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So think about what the journey is from the first call to the call where you make the sale.
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And then just be mindful of making sure that your content matches that journey.
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I really don t think it s that difficult.
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But I don t think companies spend time.
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I think we re so anxious to, how many calls have you made?
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Yes.
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And where it gets the group as a pole in trouble, I think, is the burnout part.
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So I ve got a client.
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He s a really sharp, young sales guy.
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And he came to me.
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He s like, I don t know how much longer I can do this.
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I mean, it s a grind.
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And it s a grind because there s only two measurements, dials and appointments.
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That s it.
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There s no measurement of awareness or steps down the journey.
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And so if you re a leader of these companies, and if you re a BDR, SDR, and you listen to this show, send this to your manager and say, boss, please listen to this.
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is we ve got to start to measure the journey and to say, OK, now, marketing does this pretty well.
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Usually, marketing, they re putting content stuff out, and they re looking at opens and click-through rates and time on production on that jazz.
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SPEAKER_01
The SDR BDR should have some element of that, I believe, also in their measurement, right?
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Yeah, but they re playing in a different.
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They re isolated from that, mostly, I think, from what I see.
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Now, if you re in a company that doesn t isolate them, and it s all one big happy family, and you re constantly working on tweaking the journey, that s great.
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You re very lucky.
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But most don t.
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Yes.
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And there s also, now there is a trend.
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SPEAKER_01
I will give the industry credit for this.
1
SPEAKER_01
There is a trend to take the SDR, BDR role and roll it into marketing.
1
SPEAKER_01
I have two clients.
1
SPEAKER_01
They re clients on one call.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s not a client, but a friend where they re doing that.
1
SPEAKER_01
That makes a ton of sense to me.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because now I can measure the same way.
1
SPEAKER_01
But when BDR and SDR lives under sales, and it s literally about those two metrics, call and appointments, then you re going to have just a group of just absolutely burned out people.
1
SPEAKER_00
So when it goes under marketing, what are a couple of things that you find are different about the SDR role under marketing?
1
SPEAKER_00
Give me some specifics, or has it been advanced?
1
SPEAKER_01
I think the first level, so I think that the overall arching, is that double speak there?
1
SPEAKER_00
Overarching, would that be a thing?
1
SPEAKER_01
Overarching.
1
SPEAKER_00
Underpinning.
1
SPEAKER_00
Overarching.
1
SPEAKER_01
Depends on how you look at it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Travis like, oh no, he s just sick.
1
SPEAKER_01
One of the best benefits I get from doing this show is growing my vocabulary, is we measure the engagement level.
1
SPEAKER_01
So what that means is, if I m an SDR, I m making calls, and then I m sending the white paper, or I m sending the link to the blog, or I m sending the video, and how many of the people that I speak with watch the video?
1
SPEAKER_01
And how long do they watch it?
1
SPEAKER_01
And I start to measure the engagement.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because I can, like you said, if I can position it up front to say, I m in awareness mode, I love the language of that.
1
SPEAKER_01
I love the language saying, we are in the mode of building awareness in this new market or in this new segment.
1
SPEAKER_01
And we re really early on.
1
SPEAKER_01
So all we re doing at this point is educating people.
1
SPEAKER_01
This is a courtesy call.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m going to send you this thing to look at.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s directed directly for a CEO.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s a four-minute video.
1
SPEAKER_01
Take a look at that.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then I ll give you a shout back later, or we ll dialogue, or I ll send you something else.
1
SPEAKER_01
But we re really just an awareness moment.
1
SPEAKER_01
We just want you to know we re here, a little bit about what we do and how we help.
1
SPEAKER_00
This may or may not be a fit now.
1
SPEAKER_00
It may or may not be a fit ever.
1
SPEAKER_00
But we are obligated to share this with you.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think that language and that attitude perspective is really powerful.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it s whenever it is, it is.
1
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t have to be now.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it can be now.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s just one of those.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because all SDR, BDR stuff is timing and luck.
1
SPEAKER_01
It kind of is.
1
SPEAKER_01
If you go back to the original, which I m going to call now, we said, OK, can you tweak and modify the language?
1
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely, you can do that.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it s not only, I shouldn t say only, that.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s heavy duty on the timing and luck part.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then when you produce, and this is part of how difficult it can be.
1
SPEAKER_00
So let s say you produce a video.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it s a video that educates the customer on what kinds of issues are coming, what kinds of trends are looming and pains.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you have the SDR, make the call.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they say, hey, I ve got this video.
1
SPEAKER_00
We don t know.
1
SPEAKER_00
We re just in an awareness building mode.
1
SPEAKER_00
That video had better be damn good.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t mean overly produced.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t mean like a docudrama, a million dollars spent on it.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it had better lead the prospect from where he or she is when they first click on watch to here are the problems.
1
SPEAKER_00
Here s our mission.
1
SPEAKER_00
Here s our message.
1
SPEAKER_00
What s the call to action?
2
SPEAKER_00
What s the next step after that video?
2
SPEAKER_00
I see this a lot.
2
SPEAKER_00
I have seen it referred to as the dead-end video, where it s like, the customer watches the video, and it s like, OK, now what the hell do I do?
2
SPEAKER_00
There s nothing to do, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
There s nothing to do.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so you ve got to really think through, OK, the video is first.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then what?
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe there s a webinar.
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it s a one-to-one call.
2
SPEAKER_00
But maybe that s too quick.
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it s a blog that you say, in the video, we talked about this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now we re going to dive deeper into this.
2
SPEAKER_00
So the customer goes down this journey intelligently and intentionally.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they arrive at the point where they say, you know what?
2
SPEAKER_00
I need to book a call with Brian.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s time.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s time.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s where, to me, the SDR role.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that SDR needs to follow that person, track them, understand, be there for questions.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re just a guide along the journey.
2
SPEAKER_01
And to close the loop up around this, and this is part of the advice I gave to my client who s struggling with this.
2
SPEAKER_01
is you have to find a way to enjoy this role yourself.
2
SPEAKER_01
You ve got to figure out how to do that.
2
SPEAKER_01
For me personally, this is just me, so this would not be for everyone.
2
SPEAKER_01
What you re talking about, the journey, is way more fun.
2
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_01
I would so much more enjoy making a video, sending a blog, writing something, interviewing a client, and then sending that over and doing that varied activity is, to me, way more fun.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I d look way more forward to going to work and doing this than grinding out 100 dials every day from an auto dialer.
2
SPEAKER_01
Of course.
2
SPEAKER_01
And saying the same little shticky speech and hoping that I get three appointments set.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So the key here, to me, is just the whole idea of reverse engineering.
2
SPEAKER_00
Just reverse engineer your process.
2
SPEAKER_00
From the time the customer says yes and slices you a check,
2
SPEAKER_00
back into, okay, what are the steps along that journey?
2
SPEAKER_00
And how do I, and again, if you re an SDR and you re hammering out cold calls and you don t have any autonomy to do this, fine.
2
SPEAKER_00
But maybe somewhere in between, I have no autonomy and I have 100%, maybe somewhere in there, there s an idea that you can take from here.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think reverse engineering the sales process is step one.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like, okay, what are the steps along the path
2
SPEAKER_00
along this journey that we talk about often.
2
SPEAKER_00
So we didn t really have any...
2
SPEAKER_00
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 tips, but I guess we did have some to-dos.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s plenty.
2
SPEAKER_01
You listen to this over and back, and you ve got to think about all the things.
2
SPEAKER_01
Think about the culture, the people.
2
SPEAKER_01
Think about the way that they do, the process that they engage in.
2
SPEAKER_01
And let the SDR, BDR, we said loop this back to your manager.
2
SPEAKER_01
Let the SDR, BDR group listen to this and come up with the process.
2
SPEAKER_01
That whole phrase, we support what we help create, we support what we help create, let them help create this.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they ll be bought into it more.
2
SPEAKER_01
Versus saying, here s the process.
2
SPEAKER_01
You make 100 hours a day.
2
SPEAKER_01
Your goal is to set five appointments.
2
SPEAKER_01
Fives, keep your seat.
2
SPEAKER_01
10 s good.
2
SPEAKER_01
15 will give you a bonus.
2
SPEAKER_00
And we ll put you on probation if you re not doing it for 90 days.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then what happens?
2
SPEAKER_00
The other person starts looking.
2
SPEAKER_00
We ll send you a call.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
What percent of people who get put on probation end up getting off probation and become superstars?
2
SPEAKER_00
What percent of that?
2
SPEAKER_00
I have no idea.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s really good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Zero.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or five.
2
SPEAKER_01
The old PIP.
2
SPEAKER_01
I have seen the PIP work once.
2
SPEAKER_01
Twice.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
For 30 years.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve got a hand up for that.
2
SPEAKER_01
OK, good stuff.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you d like to have Bill and or me and or both come out to your sales meeting, kickoff meeting for early 2020, end of the year 19, now s the time to reach out.
2
SPEAKER_01
A lot of fall meetings occur in that September, October, November time frame.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then the January, February sales launch dates are also booked or a travel trip.
2
SPEAKER_01
We d love to go to what, Arizona, Aruba in the January, February time frame.
2
SPEAKER_01
But send us an email.
2
SPEAKER_01
You went to Aruba and you had an opportunity and you blew it.
2
SPEAKER_01
I did not set a clear future with my mystery listener who talked to me in the ocean in Aruba.
2
SPEAKER_00
He will come back, because you know he listens.
2
SPEAKER_00
He will come back.
2
SPEAKER_01
If anybody knows who this gentleman is who was talking to me in the ocean in Aruba and said, I listen to your podcast, please point him my way, would you?
2
SPEAKER_01
Send us an email, listener at advancedsellingpodcast.com, and put come see us in the subject line.
2
SPEAKER_01
We d be happy to do that.
2
SPEAKER_01
We will see you next time on the Advanced Selling Podcast.
2
SPEAKER_01
Bye.