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Hey, time for Fan Mail Friday.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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I m here with producer Jason DeFilippo and Kim Salter again today.
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We ll be answering your questions and dropping some knowledge and feedback to help you kick the weekend off right.
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If you re new to the Art of Charm podcast, this is not where you should start.
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Most of our content is more in-depth and longer format, so check out the best of
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at theartofcharm.com slash best, or the Fundamentals Toolbox at theartofcharm.com slash toolbox.
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That s where we ve got the fundamentals of nonverbal communication and body language, negotiation, attraction, networking, and everything else we teach here at The Art of Charm.
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We ll send it all to your inbox if you text charmed, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444, or just go to theartofcharm.com.
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All right, let s cut to it.
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Hi there, I listen to your show every week.
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You guys always have great content and thank you so much for all that you share.
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So I have an embarrassing question for you that I m sure other listeners might struggle with as well.
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What do you think about someone who is dating with a herpes diagnosis?
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I ve always been the type of person to be in a relationship before ever doing the deed, so it definitely isn t a thing where I had all these one night stands.
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I have no idea when or where it came from or how long I ve had it for.
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I never had any symptoms to be worried about.
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Then one day I had a small rash on my lower back and my friend thought that it might be herpes and I had to find out.
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I went to the doctor and got blood work.
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Turns out I have type 1 and type 2 herpes.
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All I ever wanted in my life is to have a family of my own one day, but this sure dampened my hope.
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I dated two more guys since I found out five years ago and told them about it before sex happened, but I found that it caused me to really lower my standards and put up with more crap because I didn t feel that I was worth being with a good guy.
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I ve been single again for about a year, and I m totally okay with it, but at the same time, I would like a good relationship one day.
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I no longer allow myself to put up with a guy who s got a lot of red flags, but I also notice that I don t even allow myself to still be worthy of a good guy either.
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What do you suggest for someone in this situation?
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It s also scary to open up to someone and tell them and then just hope and pray they don t tell anyone else.
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And when do you suggest telling someone?
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First couple of dates?
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After things get serious?
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I definitely would say something before anything sexual happens, but I don t want to lead someone on until it gets serious and then say, oh, by the way, I have herpes.
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It just doesn t seem fair.
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I have no idea what to do.
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Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
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Thanks.
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Yikes, so this one seems a little bit tough because as a guy, I would definitely wanna know, right?
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And it s only fair to tell the other person, but I also see the dilemma where if you re dating someone and you re at dinner on the first date, you re not exactly, when do you break it to the other person so that you don t totally scare them off, gross them out, whatever?
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When is it too early?
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It s obviously too late when you re about to initiate physical contact because that s,
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it s kind of like the bait and switch, right?
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Yeah, I mean, this is it is a tough one.
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And it reminds me of just, you know, anything that somebody has that in their mind is a big deal, or is getting away in the way of like relationships and dating, like, we could take this issues of herpes and make it a lot of different things, you know what I mean?
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So I think it s,
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Communication is key for sure.
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I think though, when you re communicating it and when you feel comfortable doing that, and I think that s like a case by case basis, you should think about how you want your partner to take the news.
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Like you don t want to highlight that it s a huge problem, right?
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So if you, you don t want to say, I have some awful news for you and be really negative about it, but instead,
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I would suggest, and this is what I ve had other clients do, you know, just be more casual, be very direct and not emotional about it and really know your facts because your partner s going to want to definitely know more about it and especially if he or she really likes you.
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they ll want to work with you.
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But you know what jumped out at me even more so than like how to talk to them or how to talk to the partners was this feelings of low self-worth.
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You know, like that person was saying it was scary to open up and she s embarrassed.
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And I know that people who have dealt with stuff like this, they feel dirty or shameful or unattractive.
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You know, look, we all have scarlet letters, so to speak, and if we think negative about it, so will the other person.
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So I would suggest really get more work around this.
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I know there s a lot of support groups out there.
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There s chat rooms.
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There s a lot of resources with other people who have herpes.
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And I mean, I think there s a statistic, something like at least one in four American women have genital herpes.
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So it s a common thing.
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And I think if she got support around that, it would help her a great deal.
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Yeah, I mean, for me, it seems like you really need to, first of all, you need to be super confident to do this because you have to be willing to put yourself out there in a way that s highly uncomfortable.
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I do think that you, obviously, you have to do this.
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You cannot dupe people into this.
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It s awful, it s unfair, but I know a lot of people that actually, a lot of guy friends that have this, and it s funny because they don t, it s just not a big deal for a lot of them.
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One of my friends, actually AOC alumni, I ran into him in Vegas, and I was like, what are you doing here?
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And he s like, oh, I m at a herpes dating event.
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They have these meetup groups where people go who all just, they have it, and then,
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you hang out and it s all under the table.
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Or it s all, what do you call it, under the bridge.
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It s all water under the bridge.
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Everybody there has it, you don t talk about it, it s not a big thing, it s just everybody in that pool is open.
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And he s super funny with it because the way he says it is, oh, I m not worried about it.
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If I didn t have herpes by now, I d have herpes by now.
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Which I think is hilarious because, yeah, he s basically saying, look, it s only affected my life in these minimal ways that were much bigger in my mind.
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And he got it.
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He got it through totally getting the shaft.
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His wife, you know, 20 years ago or whatever it was, had cheated on him once after they were married and then gave it to him.
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He didn t do anything wrong to get it.
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He wasn t irresponsible, nothing.
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So it s totally unfair and it s easy to say, oh my gosh, this is so terrible.
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And he s just like, look,
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You know, if I didn t have herpes by now, I d have herpes by now.
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And he goes to these meetups and he deals with it and he s married now to somebody else and it s totally fine and he really, I ve asked him, like, no, but for real, how has this affected you?
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And he s like, it really just, it s just something you manage.
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It s like having a knee that tweaks or a little back twinge.
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It s really just like that.
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You gotta put it in that category and not attach this shame and stigma to it that a lot of people do.
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So I was dating a girl for about three months and, you know, we were intimate for about two of those three months.
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And it wasn t till the third month where she actually let me know that she had herpes.
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And the first night that we hooked up, I told her, I m like, is there anything that you have to tell me?
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Because the one thing that I don t like in a relationship is somebody who lies to me.
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And turns out it was a lie of omission.
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She didn t tell me.
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We practiced safe sex the entire time, but once she finally came clean and told me what was going on, then I ended the relationship because I, you know, I found that as just, I found the breach of trust more egregious than anything because yes, it s something you can manage.
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You can absolutely manage it.
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But it s that breach of trust.
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And you know, there are ways to say it up front before you get intimate.
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And, you know, I think that s personally the right thing to do, because it just blew the trust out of the water.
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Yeah, I can see that.
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Because at that point, it s just like, look, if you re not going to tell me that, what else is going on?
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What else do you I mean, especially when you re talking about your health, you can t take any risks.
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Yeah, that s exactly it.
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It s like if you re hiding something like this, what else do I need to know?
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Yeah.
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And you don t want to try to be you don t want to be trying to guess that stuff.
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My name is Hannah and I m 18 years old.
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I was recently introduced to you and your wonderful work through an interview you did on the Sex Nerd Sandra podcast, which I thought was thoroughly interesting and enjoyable.
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It was really fascinating to hear all of what you had to say, not only about what s going on inside of the minds of men when they speak to women, but the physical and psychological goings-on of human interactions.
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Secondly, and more importantly, I had a question for you.
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I m about to start college and am at something of a loss.
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Over the past four years of high school, I have become increasingly defensive and guarded towards a lot of people, but men, quote-unquote boys, in particular.
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I tend to have a very brash, dry, sarcastic, snarky sense of humor and way of communicating with people in general.
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I can come off as too snarky and sarcastic and feel a bizarre sense of guilt when I may or may not scare someone away because of a trait that I have somehow developed over the course of my growing up.
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Specifically with guys, I have run into a particular issue that I would like to ask you about.
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I, like most young females in my age group, will see someone attractive and want to go and say hello.
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However, my issue is, I never follow through with those urges
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because for me, I feel as though because of my personality, guys don t want to talk to me.
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So, I feel like because I am the way I am, I have to act as such all the time until I find someone who can take a joke or a slight making fun of you thing every once in a while.
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I always feel a weird sense that I have to act sweet and coy in order to get people to feel like they want to talk to me, but I feel like because I ve shut out all sorts of interactions with guys, they just won t buy it.
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I would greatly appreciate it if you could help me with some simple advice or send along a few simple tips to help me with getting into the quote-unquote dating scene in college when that time rolls around fairly soon.
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Thank you so much for taking a moment to listen to my babbling.
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I really, truly do appreciate it, as I assume you re extremely busy helping out all sorts of wonderful people.
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Thank you kindly, and be well from Boston.
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And I don t know what you guys think, but she s one of the better writers we ve had recently.
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She is a good writer.
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She probably goes to a good school.
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Well, you know what, it s funny you should mention that, because the first thing that struck me is, wow, this girl overthinks this a lot.
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She thinks a lot, right?
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Even the email, the way it s written, not only is it written well, but there s a lot of, sorry, this is so long.
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Oh, my apologies for being wordy here.
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Oh, I tend to do this way, and oh, here s the reason I do that.
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She s probably doing this with everything in her whole life.
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Her whole internal dialogue is, what am I doing?
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I need to narrate this in my head and then see if there s another way to do it and maybe this is something that s going on.
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And it wouldn t surprise me, whenever you get a lot of extraneous thought like this, especially splashed out onto a page, what it makes me
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is this person overthinks every problem they have and over-engineers every solution.
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So when I see the actual problem that she says she has, well, I ve gotta act a different way, I ve got a different sense of humor, I m scaring people off, that may well be the case, but it doesn t help that you re trying to figure out exactly what to do or debate with yourself whether or not you need to change, because something tells me this debate happens a lot in her head and takes a lot of her time and a lot of her energy, more importantly.
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Yeah, I don t know.
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Totally.
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No, I was thinking too, she s way in her head, and I think she s judging herself a lot, which prevents her from taking action with these guys.
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You know, and I always tell people, if you feel and assume guys don t want to talk with you, then they won t.
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Like, it s kind of like that.
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And she said, you know, guys don t want to talk to me.
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They, you know...
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She doesn t, it s that feeling of not having that self-worth.
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And so that is definitely going to shine through when she s out and about.
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And the fact, I want to address, I love that she brought up this sarcasm thing, because I think this is used a lot.
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And I ve seen this time and time again, when I m out there in the field with women, where
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Humor and sarcasm is used, but in a way to deflect their emotions or when they re uncomfortable or used as a defense.
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And it s something that I think a lot of people deal with.
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I mean, I m from the Midwest.
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I know, Jordan, you are, too.
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And I think Midwest people, we tend to use sarcasm and humor a lot.
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Yeah, right.
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So that I mean, I think that s just something culturally and like different parts of the country.
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But what I found is that sometimes it s hard to really get a sense of a person and be authentic and vulnerable when you re constantly using it.
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I mean, it s like anything else.
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If you use it in excess, it s going to be too much.
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So like, I would tell this woman,
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it would be interesting for her to journal and track times that she tends to do this and see if there s a pattern for herself.
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Like, when does it happen?
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You know, what is she feeling when she s using this, you know, deflection all the time?
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And then she should go out and do almost like a social experiment with herself and try not using humor at all and seeing how uncomfortable or how comfortable she is and seeing, you know, what it s like to not use it at all.
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And then, you know, kind of come somewhere in between.
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Yeah, I think for a woman like this, a young girl like this, you re still trying to find your personality for the next probably 10 years, right?
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So you can t change yourself to get something that you think you want because then you just have something that you wouldn t have been able to get while being yourself or being authentically yourself.
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That s gonna be exhausting.
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So you re really going through a screening process of figuring out who exactly is gonna, I hate to use this phrase, but put up with your snark and your sarcasm, and the answer is tons of people will like that.
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Tons of people will like that, tons of people will enjoy that.
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Just make sure you re not using it as like,
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a defense mechanism, oh, I don t wanna get people close to me, so I m gonna make fun of everything and be really snarky and aggressive towards people or make fun of them all the time, because I notice that happens a lot.
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It s kind of a reject other people before they reject me type thing.
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People say, yeah, I just have a snarky sense of humor, and it s like, well, that s part of it, but the other part is you have a fear of getting close to people because they might hurt you.
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And that s very common in people of this age group, well, any age group, really, but especially, I think, in college, and especially if you think you don t fit in very well, because you don t want to get dumped or duped or left for somebody else, because it s very painful, especially in a social environment like that.
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So, yeah, you might have a very brash, dry, sarcastic, snarky sense of humor, but make sure that you are able to also be real and vulnerable, and you re not just using the snark as a shield.
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Hey Jordan and Kim.
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Being in outside sales, I spend hours in the car and use podcasts to distract myself and I m such a big fan of the show.
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Keep up the great work.
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I recently heard Kim as a guest speaker on The Art of Charm in regards to setting boundaries.
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It really resonated with me because although I m excellent at this in the boyfriend department, I tend to fall flat with my friendships.
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I m constantly picking up the bill, letting myself be okay with cancelled and changed plans, and just plain settling for less.
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I just went through a divorce and during this painful process I was able to see who some of my true friends were and were not.
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However, recently one of my friends who I thought was a great part of my life has really continued to disappoint and hurt me.
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She drunkenly texts me lashing out and seems to be more focused on her friendships as a group than individually.
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There s one married guy in our big group of friends who I had an affair with.
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I know, not behavior I wish to admit or am happy about, but the affair is over and has been for almost a year, but he tried to kiss me once a few months ago.
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I shut the situation down and walked away.
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This guy is refusing to go to her birthday party because I ll be there.
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She drunkenly sent me a text saying how annoyed and mad she was at me.
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I responded to this with, quote unquote,
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When you text me hurtful things, drunk, I feel, etc.
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And she completely didn t listen.
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In fact, she lashed out even more the next day when she was sober.
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My dad s an AA, so I have a lot of experience with people with drinking problems, but I think this could stem deeper.
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I guess I m just lost and not sure how to respond to someone acting like this.
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Should I end the friendship altogether?
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I guess I m just hurt that she s mad at me.
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In addition, it just feels like an immature high school situation.
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Am I just being insensitive?
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Thanks.
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Push over finally setting boundaries.
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All right.
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So for me, it just I might be oversimplifying this one.
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It just sounds like her friend is has low self-esteem and is really obnoxious.
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I would never want to deal with somebody like this.
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Well, that s exactly it.
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So why is she?
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That s exactly my thought.
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So if she s constantly doing this, yet she still stays in this friendship for some reason, it reminds me of another thing that we addressed on another Female Friday of really looking at the benefit of why you re still in a relationship that s not working for you.
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But I just want to mention, I want to applaud her for trying to use the I statement because I think she was starting to, you know, put in place some things that she learned here on the podcast.
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But I want to warn people, this is, I m glad she brought this out because a lot of times when you start changing the way you go about things and for a better way,
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Don t be surprised if unhealthy relationships don t like it.
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Like when you set boundaries with people who haven t served you in the past, or maybe there s like a codependent relationship or friendship, they re used to you being a certain way.
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So when you start changing things up, they don t like it because she said that the friend didn t like when she used the I statement.
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So I just want to kind of highlight that.
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And then at that point, you got to really assess the relationship.
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Like, what are you gaining from it?
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In this particular case, she kind of cued us with that.
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Her dad was an AA, so she has a lot of experience with dealing, you know, with situations like this.
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And I have a feeling, and this is very common, is that a lot of times we try to, like, rework family of origin issues through friendships and relationships.
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And, but it s like a broken tape.
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We still get the same results over and over again.
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We think that we re going to correct it, or maybe we re just comfortable in it because it s something that we re, you know, that s known to us, but it s not necessarily healthy.
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So I invite everybody to think about that.
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Like when you re in a bad friendship or relationship and you re in it, is it, you know, what are the reasons for
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for it, and is it something that you need to renegotiate or break off?
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Right, because this is even the relationships that are, not just your intimate relationships, but ones with your friends.
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I feel like you touched on something really interesting here.
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A lot of times we have these friendships that serve us in some weird way, or that we feel like we deserve, and we put up with all this weird crap instead of thinking, wait a second, this person is bad for me.
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You know, why do I put up with this person?
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Oh, well, you know, my dad was the same way, so I feel like I can t leave people who do this.
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And it s like, well, okay, at what cost are you putting up with people like this in your life?
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Because this friend sounds just annoying as hell.
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And to be sitting there and getting drunk texts about how some guy won t come to her birthday because since he s being immature, she s gonna now be immature, and you re dealing with both of their crap now through text message?
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I mean, give me a frickin  break.
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I would never do that.
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Right, but you know what?
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It s not all this friend.
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Like, I want to put some ownership on this person who wrote in, is that she is keeping her in the loop.
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She s keeping the cycle going by not putting boundaries and saying no to her or, you know, kind of giving her a consequence when she keeps texting these things.
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Block her number.
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Do something that will teach her not to treat her that way.
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And if she continues to do it, then again, cut off the friendship.
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And it is.
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It s something that I think happens all the time.
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It reminds me of when I go into people s closets and I see things hanging in there where people hold on to stuff for like various reasons, even though they re not wearing it.
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It s like, oh, well, I can t throw that away because that reminds me of so-and-so or I can t throw that away because my aunt Sue gave me that dress, you know.
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Sometimes we hang on to things or friendships in the past because of what it gave us in the past, but if it s not continuing to give, then cut it off.
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Yeah, it s kind of awful.
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I don t wanna harp on it too much, but whenever we find ourselves in these types of situations, we can only really control our own behavior.
2
SPEAKER_02
So you re not gonna be able to get your friend, Lauren, to stop drunk texting you, most likely, but what you can do is ignore her forever.
2
SPEAKER_02
And honestly, I would just stop talking to her for months.
2
SPEAKER_02
Do you really need her?
2
SPEAKER_02
What value does she provide in your life that you can t get from somebody else without the attendant bullshit involved?
2
SPEAKER_02
Which, for me, I feel like I ve had friends like that before, and I ve dated women like that before, who are...
2
SPEAKER_02
really big drama queens, and there s always something, and often it s always about them, too, and it s just like, I remember one girl, I broke up with her because I had my tonsils out as an adult, which by the way, is like medium slash major surgery, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
It s not an amputation of a limb, but you re under, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
You re under the knife, and it s weeks and weeks of recovery time, and you can t talk, and you can t eat, and you re on these crazy pain meds and stuff,
2
SPEAKER_02
and she came in once to quote-unquote take care of me, but then she would pick a fight every single time.
2
SPEAKER_02
Why doesn t this happen?
2
SPEAKER_02
Why don t you do that?
2
SPEAKER_02
And she would wake me up while I m sleeping, and she would do really annoying things like that to wake me up to basically discuss some imaginary problem that made her feel important.
2
SPEAKER_02
So one day I kicked her out, and I was like, don t ever come back.
2
SPEAKER_02
Because I was beat.
2
SPEAKER_02
I was trying to recover.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I thought, look, if she s gonna literally kick me when I m down, I can t even move, talk, whatever, and she s throwing ice cubes at me to wake me up at night so she can fight.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m like, get the hell out of here.
2
SPEAKER_02
And right after that, I didn t talk to her for weeks after that.
2
SPEAKER_02
I recovered and honestly was super proud of myself for being able to do this.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is a long time ago.
2
SPEAKER_02
She hit me back once.
2
SPEAKER_02
I was like, hey, are you okay?
2
SPEAKER_02
What s going on?
2
SPEAKER_02
I should have probably just ignored her forever, but I sent her a text because I did feel a little guilty about kicking her out, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
She goes, I ve been in the hospital and I got sick because you kicked me out that night and I had to walk home.
2
SPEAKER_02
She lived like three blocks away, okay?
2
SPEAKER_02
She s like, I had pneumonia.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I m like, oh, I get it.
2
SPEAKER_02
Now I m going to be made to feel guilty for some other thing that I did that you ve, quite frankly, deserved slash I needed to do to preserve my health.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is your pattern.
2
SPEAKER_02
I never spoke with her again.
2
SPEAKER_02
That was it.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s awesome that you broke the pattern.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s bad because it s not easy to do.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that is such a common thing that happens in really unhealthy situations or codependent relationships is where the other person gets almost blamed for behavior they do.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, you made me do it and it justifies their behavior.
2
SPEAKER_00
So then you stay in there.
2
SPEAKER_00
because you feel guilty because somehow it s your fault.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so then it just becomes that vicious cycle and you broke it.
2
SPEAKER_00
That was a good example.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it was tough because, of course, she was super upset and she was really, really sad.
2
SPEAKER_02
I felt bad for her because she wasn t this crazy, manipulative person.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is how she grew up.
2
SPEAKER_02
She didn t see it that way, like, I m going to get him to do what I want.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is how she probably lived her whole life.
2
SPEAKER_02
So she was genuinely sad and upset about the whole thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
We met up years later, and I thought, oh, we re just friends.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is totally fine.
2
SPEAKER_02
She s always been more or less nice.
2
SPEAKER_02
Now that we re not dating, maybe things will be different.
2
SPEAKER_02
And we re in a restaurant, and she s frickin  starts crying out of nowhere in the middle of a conversation about how this didn t end well.
2
SPEAKER_02
And the waitress comes up and is like, is everything okay?
2
SPEAKER_02
And I m like,
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I need the check.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m leaving.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I just left.
2
SPEAKER_02
I was like, I m so stupid.
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, like, I, I literally thought I because I just remembered that part as well.
2
SPEAKER_02
I thought before that I never spoke with her again.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s funny how we revise our own history to make ourselves sound and feel good.
2
SPEAKER_02
No, I did.
2
SPEAKER_02
I suckered back into that months or years later, just thinking it ll be different now.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it totally wasn t.
2
SPEAKER_02
So I will tell you,
2
SPEAKER_02
Lauren, block this friend s number.
2
SPEAKER_02
If she changes, you may or may not find out about it, but it s okay.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s not worth betting on them.
2
SPEAKER_00
And if you block her number, the key is that you have to keep it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Don t give in to it where if she tries to hit you up in social media or will try to get you in another way, you really have to teach her how to treat you.
2
SPEAKER_00
Otherwise, it s not going to work.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s so true because look, I tend to be really self-aware and very aware of these social dynamics paradigms, hence having this company and having this show, and I still, again, a decade ago, still fell for the same crap.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s really easy because you start to convince yourself and you start to idealize people in your mind or you start to remember only the good things about them when they re gone.
2
SPEAKER_02
or they do a really damn good job of convincing you that things are different and then they start crying in a restaurant for no effing reason whatsoever other than to try to make you feel bad.
2
SPEAKER_02
And this is gonna continually happen with people like that.
2
SPEAKER_02
We can t speak specifically to her friend, but look, if she gets drunk all the time and she starts saying hateful things to her friends, especially about high school drama, this is not something that s gonna change overnight.
2
SPEAKER_02
You re better off without her.
2
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_00
And by changing her is not going to change your past with your dad either.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I know that sounds really Freudian, but it s true because I think that it s a familiar pattern that she s gotten herself into and how empowered she would feel if she broke it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hi, Jordan.
2
SPEAKER_01
After recommending the show to my Uber driver the other night, it occurred to me that you might have some insight into this.
2
SPEAKER_01
For the last 15 years, I ve been poorly coping with my unrequited feelings for one of my friends.
2
SPEAKER_01
It eventually led to us losing contact when we both moved on to grad school.
2
SPEAKER_01
Even though we were out of contacts for the last 10 years, she sort of had a way of hanging around in my mind like an unpaid bill.
2
SPEAKER_01
Not in some all-consuming way, but more of a perpetual feeling that I left the stove on kind of way.
2
SPEAKER_01
Fast forward to the last year, and she started to come back into my life.
2
SPEAKER_01
Granted, she was now two states away, and significantly more married.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was mostly arm s length chatting at fairly random intervals.
2
SPEAKER_01
While I tried to use her marriage and new residence as a buffer against my ill-advised feelings, it was still hard to not feel everything creeping back up.
2
SPEAKER_01
Fast forward again to the end of last year, and things got really weird.
2
SPEAKER_01
Without much warning, she started trying to take the arm s-length chatting on Instagram to texting, and much more frequently.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is where I started to suspect that there was more going on than I was aware of.
2
SPEAKER_01
Specifically, I suspected that one of the two reasons for me not even entertaining my long-term feelings was going away.
2
SPEAKER_01
After about two weeks of this, she confirms that her marriage is falling apart.
2
SPEAKER_01
A few weeks later, I regrettably and very much against all possible advice confessed to her that my inability to cope with my feelings for her were the reasons we lost contact.
2
SPEAKER_01
Much to my surprise, she revealed that she had always wondered why we never ended up together.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is where I somehow become even less proud of my behavior.
2
SPEAKER_01
She ends up booking a plane ticket and comes out for a long weekend.
2
SPEAKER_01
In a weird way, everything was perfect.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was the first time in a long time that things seemed to work.
2
SPEAKER_01
Of course, the other shoe had to rediscover gravity at some point.
2
SPEAKER_01
After she went back home, she was reluctant to talk about when we could see each other again.
2
SPEAKER_01
Eventually, she told me that she doesn t want me to wait for her.
2
SPEAKER_01
The exclamation point on all this is that the reason she doesn t want me is because
3
SPEAKER_01
she doesn t want to leave her husband despite how miserable she is in the marriage.
3
SPEAKER_01
Sorry for the long setup, but here s the question.
3
SPEAKER_01
How do I come back from this?
3
SPEAKER_01
My confidence has always been close to non-existent, but knowing that she thought life with her abusive husband is better than a life with me in it has kind of shattered what was left of my confidence.
3
SPEAKER_01
Before we lost contact, the reason that we never got together was because I was always her second choice.
3
SPEAKER_01
Guess I have a complex about being the runner up from all this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Having this happen again after all these years has rattled me more than I expected.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know that everyone says that time and distance will help, but that hasn t helped before.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s hard to take the old breakup standard advice when it hasn t rung true before.
3
SPEAKER_01
Sorry again for the long story.
3
SPEAKER_01
I appreciate any advice you may have for me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Signed, Second to Best.
3
SPEAKER_03
Okay, so my first impression of this, one, he s a funny, actually quite a funny writer, but the thing that hits me here is he s blaming himself, oh, how do I come back from this, why doesn t she pick me over this other guy who s not as good for her, and blah, blah, blah.
3
SPEAKER_03
This, first and foremost, and tell me what you think, Kim, it s not about you.
3
SPEAKER_03
Mark, it s about her.
3
SPEAKER_03
She s using you in the beginning to sort of gratify her need for emotional connection.
3
SPEAKER_03
I mean, she s reaching out, she s married, she s reaching out to this other guy for essentially validation, right?
3
SPEAKER_03
And then she comes out and tries to live this little fantasy vacation to get away from her marriage, but then in the end won t leave her husband.
3
SPEAKER_03
This has nothing to do with how good you are or how suitable you are for her.
3
SPEAKER_03
This has to do with her gratifying some need to get away from what is actually a huge mess in her life and then going back to it because she s not strong enough to leave this other person or there s some other stuff going on.
3
SPEAKER_03
And you, Mark, are taking this and going, uh-oh, this means something about me, but it totally doesn t.
3
SPEAKER_03
Right, Kim?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, he there s this kind of theme throughout of being second best.
3
SPEAKER_00
He even signed his name second best.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that was the first thing that jumped out at me.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, forget this, even the situation with the woman for a second.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I m wondering if he has always had this feeling of being second best always in his life.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so then here he is in the situation where he is taking crumbs rather than the cake.
3
SPEAKER_00
And is that always the case?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, if it... Because if you think that s all you deserve, then, like, every little attention, every little nuance, something that will give him hope that, you know, she ll come back to him, is, like, validation for him.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so, I would... I would recommend
3
SPEAKER_00
for this guy to really look at his, you know, feelings of self-worth and his confidence and do a lot of work around that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because, you know, the time and distance helps, but it s kind of like putting a finger on a bucket hole that s full of water.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like you have to address what s in the bucket first.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, so self-love is, you know, what do you deserve?
3
SPEAKER_00
Is this the only woman that gave him any sense of worth?
3
SPEAKER_00
And if it is, that s sad.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I would want to look at his social circle, his hobbies, his family of origin issues, and other supports that he has so that he feels really confident and good and so he s not in this kind of situation.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I think it sounds like
3
SPEAKER_03
This is probably a pattern in his life where we re just only hearing about this one instance.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yes, it might be this one girl, maybe she s the one that sort of, maybe she s the one that scratched the scab off, opened up the wound, right?
3
SPEAKER_03
But there s probably other times when this has happened.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s just really identifiable with her because he keeps going back to her in his head.
3
SPEAKER_03
And you re right, I think identifying his second best, he s sort of torturing himself with this memory of her in the first place.
3
SPEAKER_03
Oh, I never went for it.
3
SPEAKER_03
Oh, I couldn t cope with my feelings for her.
3
SPEAKER_03
She s kind of a proxy for his lack of self-esteem going for what he wants.
3
SPEAKER_03
He s keeping her at arm s length and making her unattainable, and she s using him to fulfill some sort of weird, not weird, some sort of totally normal escapism.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is a classic case too, and there s a lot of relationships like that where she is giving him intermittent reinforcement.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s like you finally get over something and then boom, she ll do something small and he ll get right back into it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I invite everybody to think about that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like what relationships in your life, it could be friendships, it could be your family members, it could be significant others that are giving you intermittent reinforcement, meaning it s not consistent.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s not, there s no reciprocity.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s just like enough to keep you in it.
3
SPEAKER_00
But then really, is that enough?
3
SPEAKER_00
Is that really enough?
3
SPEAKER_00
And you have to, again, dig deep and think about what it is that you deserve.
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3
SPEAKER_01
Hi AOC team, my question today is this.
3
SPEAKER_01
I just spoke with my sister and she was very frustrated because she s recently started dating a guy who is always wanting to take care of her and he won t let her take care of him so much.
3
SPEAKER_01
He doesn t even like to let her do little things like grab him a glass of water or make him breakfast.
3
SPEAKER_01
She s frustrated because she s a giver and a caretaker and has always dated men who need taking care of.
3
SPEAKER_01
She doesn t quite know what to make of her new relationship and she feels like she needs to be with someone who she can take care of.
3
SPEAKER_01
I recognize this pattern in myself too and I know a lot of other women have this issue as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
From my past experience however, it seems to me that most guys who really need taking care of are just not good partners and the relationships tend to crash and burn.
3
SPEAKER_01
How can us quote-unquote giving types get comfortable with partners who are less or not at all needy and willing to take care of us instead?
3
SPEAKER_01
More broadly, how can we learn to break out of dating a certain quote-unquote type and be comfortable, satisfied, and even excited to date someone who might actually treat us well?
3
SPEAKER_01
Thanks so much for your time and any feedback.
3
SPEAKER_03
This seems pretty cut and dry actually.
3
SPEAKER_03
This is something that I realized a few years ago, or several years ago, first when we started the Art of Charm, that different relationships have these different paradigms where, for example, Jenny really likes to do stuff for me, you know, cook food and make this and take care of that and she s a...
3
SPEAKER_03
what do you call it, acts of service is her love language, to quote this book that is good and all, but the weird sort of pseudo-religious background.
3
SPEAKER_03
There s a book called The Five Love Languages, and it s pretty good, it s pretty decent content.
3
SPEAKER_03
When it comes to paradigms like this, the rest of it is kind of throwaway.
3
SPEAKER_03
But you can see how some people express love by doing things for other people, some people express love by buying things for other people, which for me seems a little strange.
3
SPEAKER_03
And there s other,
3
SPEAKER_03
types of expression of love where you re constantly reinforcing them or telling them how much you care about them, et cetera, et cetera.
3
SPEAKER_03
This seems to be almost like a mismatch in this situation where she wants to do things for him but he doesn t want to receive that.
3
SPEAKER_03
And that s a little bit different, right?
3
SPEAKER_03
Because you can still have two people that want to do things for each other and they just do lots of things for each other in order to express love.
3
SPEAKER_03
It seems weird when one person wants to do things for the other and the other person doesn t want that.
4
SPEAKER_02
Kim, what do you make of that?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, there s two things here that I thought about.
4
SPEAKER_00
And one is is what you said.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, we all have acts of service that show love in different ways.
4
SPEAKER_00
And the five love languages, I think, is that book.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s so great to look at.
4
SPEAKER_00
But here also, there s extremes happening, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like she is an over caretaker.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it sounds like he could be an over caretaker, too.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so it s like,
4
SPEAKER_00
it doesn t feel balanced.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s what you were saying too, Jordan, is that there should be a balance and a feeling of reciprocity in some way, shape or form.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the other thing that jumps out is that I think a lot of times people mistakenly think that acts like doing things like
4
SPEAKER_00
He doesn t even let her do little things like grab him a glass of water, make him breakfast, that kind of thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
That also can be a sense of controlling.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I like I have a dear friend who was in a relationship like this where her husband
4
SPEAKER_00
literally would not let her do one thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, not even do taxes, not even do cooking.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, he would take everything over.
4
SPEAKER_00
But so much so that it was his way of controlling her.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so when she divorced him years later, she felt completely like she had no place, she didn t know how to do anything, she felt helpless.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it wasn t, she wasn t really even like that before him.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so that s the other thing to look at is,
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, when people are doing things like those little acts, is it doing it in a controlling way?
4
SPEAKER_00
But then, you know, the other thing I like to talk about is about receiving.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you re uncomfortable receiving,
4
SPEAKER_00
what is uncomfortable about that, you know, and that, again, goes back to the family of origins.
4
SPEAKER_00
But usually there s an ascribed role somewhere.
4
SPEAKER_00
I have to tell you a quick story.
4
SPEAKER_00
There was a AOC sister that I was phone coaching, and she was really working on this, allowing people to take care of her and having more balance in her life with that.
4
SPEAKER_00
And as the universe has it, she broke her foot.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so she was forced into having people help her.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, one day, this couple called her and said, hey, we would love to bring you some soup or a meal for you because I know you re out.
4
SPEAKER_00
And in her head, she was about to say, oh, no, I can fix it myself.
4
SPEAKER_00
But she had me in her head because we were really working on this.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so she accepted it.
4
SPEAKER_00
She s like, Kim is going to kill me if I don t accept it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And she did it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it was such a beautiful moment because it made her realize how much she s been doing this in her life.
4
SPEAKER_00
She allowed the couple to come over and they actually thanked her.
4
SPEAKER_00
and said, you know what, thank you so much for allowing us to give you this meal.
4
SPEAKER_00
We didn t think you would accept, quite honestly.
4
SPEAKER_00
She s like, what do you mean?
4
SPEAKER_00
And they re like, well, you kind of have the sense that you have it all, like you can do it all and that you don t need anybody in your life.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it really hit her.
4
SPEAKER_00
It really hit her.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so people who are not comfortable receiving, you have to think about that, that,
4
SPEAKER_00
people, it s shunning people away often and then causing imbalance in relationships overall.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that to me is super interesting.
4
SPEAKER_02
I think a lot of people have these different paradigms for whatever reason, and we don t want to dig too deep into the why, but it s okay to have somebody, well, I don t know, this is a question for you.
4
SPEAKER_02
Is it okay to date somebody who doesn t want to receive those things, or is that going to cause a lot of problems?
4
SPEAKER_02
It sounds like it s going to cause problems.
4
SPEAKER_02
What do we do?
4
SPEAKER_02
We can t break their foot and be like, it s like Misery, that Stephen King movie where Kathy Bates is keeping the guy in there, and she s like, this is for your own good, smashes his ankle so she can take care of him.
4
SPEAKER_02
We can t encourage a situation like that, obviously.
4
SPEAKER_02
So what do we do to take steps to try to get this handled?
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, again, it goes back to communication.
4
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I mean, I think both parties have responsibility in communicating what it is that they want and need.
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And then step two is, does that other person hear you and then follow through and act?
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you know, if one person said, like if this girl had said to the guy that she s dating, the sister that he s talking about, you know, I would really like it if I could cook you a meal and make you breakfast.
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It would give me pleasure.
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And if the guy says, oh, really?
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I had no idea.
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Well, yeah, that would be great.
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And then there s communication around it.
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And then also, you know, the guy is giving,
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the girl what she wants.
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And so there s this middle ground.
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But if he says, no, no, no, no, I won t have you do that.
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I won t I won t have you.
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I m not going to have my women do that for me.
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Then you again have to look at is that OK for you?
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So it depends.
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It causes problems only if the other person s not listening or following through.
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Yeah, I can see this causing a problem because I m not saying this guy s controlling in this situation, but I do think maybe there s an element of, oh, I m being super nice by not letting her do anything, and also covering up this weird psychological issue that I have where I can t accept love from people.
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Exactly.
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So you have to think about that because it s disguised as, oh, no, no, I m being a real gentleman here and not letting you lift a finger when really it s, oh, I ve got a dysfunction and if I disguise it as manners, it ll look fine and no one will ever find out.
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Bingo.
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You nailed it.
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And that s where the controlling piece comes in and it s more serving his need rather than hers.
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All right, next one.
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Hey, Jordan.
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First, your show is awesome and useful, which means it s so valuable.
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As a personal trainer, I have integrated social skills coaching along with my nutritional and fitness programs to help my clients with program adherence and achieving better results.
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So thank you for your content.
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As mentioned before, I am an AOC implementer.
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It has brought me much happiness and I am always improving.
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With that, I have found my dating life is not going so well.
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I m a happy, confident, goal-oriented, people lover, financially stable, physically fit female.
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I don t want to sound stuck up, but I m a professional fitness model and stunning is used to describe me.
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With all of this, I m single.
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When I date, here are some of the statements that are expressed that are starting to annoy me.
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I see you re an independent woman.
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Wow, you re like Wonder Woman.
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It s rare to find a strong female like you.
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I find myself not knowing how to act around you because you are so put together.
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And the number one annoying statement?
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You are intimidating.
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I m sure you re thinking it s the types of guys she s dating, but I have a diverse dating experience.
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Different races, economic status, different sides of town, even out of state.
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What am I doing wrong?
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I try to tone myself down a bit by not talking so much, and I don t feel like I am mean when guys say they like me.
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Yet the girls who aren t like me, like the less confident girls or the needy girls, they re the ones that get the guy.
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Is it possible to be too attractive?
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I m not arrogant, but I may be too confident.
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I love who I am and my life, so I m not looking for someone to complete me.
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I m looking for someone to join me on an already fun journey.
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I show vulnerability to display my authenticity, and guys respond with approval.
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However, I m still single.
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Oh, and the guys who want me are the loser guys.
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Broke, live with mama, recovering alcoholic stalker, and the like.
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I do attract the type of ideal guy your show guides men to, and they seem attracted to me, but don t want to take things to a relationship.
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Are superheroes destined to be alone?
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Sincerely, Worried Wonder Woman.
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This one is super funny because she attached a photo.
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I love it when people do this because normally it doesn t add anything to the answer.
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It s just kind of like, here s a photo of me just in case it helps.
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And it s like, OK, it doesn t.
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But in this case.
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There s this super hot African-American woman who is totally jacked, super muscles.
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And it s really funny because she s right, well, I shouldn t say right on the line.
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She s well underneath the line where it s too much, but it s just, you can t not notice.
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I bet when she walks down the street, people are like, whoa, this is like American Gladiators without the steroids.
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So as a guy, when you see this picture, what s your reaction?
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I think it s cool, I think it shows dedication and mental fortitude and things like that.
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It would be, it gets creepy if the person s kind of like always flexing or decides to get a pump before going out so they look more muscular or is, especially when like,
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If you see white chicks do it and they re super, super tan, you just think, okay, maybe you just came from a competition, but if you ve known them for six, eight, 10 months or a year or more and they re always super tan, you re like, oh wait, you just like looking like that all the time.
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Then it becomes a little bit much because it s kind of an obsessive behavior, but it s not the muscles that bug me.
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I would think the same thing about somebody who always has
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10 pounds of makeup and looks like they re going to the Oscars, even though they re at the grocery store, it s the same kind of feeling.
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It s just a little bit less, it s a little bit more unusual.
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But honestly, athletic stuff, that never really bugged me.
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But I can see where some guys would get intimidated by that, and I can also see where other guys would fetishize it.
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that?
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Yeah.
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I mean, I think that depends on the guy, but certainly I ve heard a lot of guys talk about, you know, when there s too much of that, and especially like say an online dating or first impressions.
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And there s all these pictures of like the woman running a race and doing a marathon and flexing the muscle.
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And there s not
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you know, other pictures that depict her as, you know, more that feminine, sexy side.
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You know, I think there s tends to be like a good mix that happens when guys get attracted to that.
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So then guys tell me they do.
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They get intimidated.
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They feel like, oh, my God, she can kick my ass.
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I mean, these are things I just hear guys say.
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So with this woman, we don t know the full story.
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I mean, obviously,
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you know, we can t see what we can t see when she s out and about.
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Maybe she claims that she s soft and feminine and personable and fun and all that stuff, but we don t know about her body language, little nuances, messaging.
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This reminds me of a woman, another AOC sister actually, and she came and worked with me and she had the same thing.
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Like she said, I don t understand what s going on.
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I m really social and people tell me I m pretty, blah, blah, blah.
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And it wasn t until she got here that I saw these little nuances, you know, like she used sarcasm a lot.
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She wasn t...
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doing a good job with, you know, sharing herself.
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She didn t crank up the sex appeal.
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There were little things that were happening that we tweaked that ended up at the end of the experience getting great results.
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A guy asked her out, but she had no idea that she was doing some of this stuff so much so that she ended up crying in the end because she had no clue
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you know, how she was being perceived.
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And none of us do.
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I mean, we can t see what we can t see.
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But, you know, the other question I have is about where she s meeting guys.
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You know, like, she s saying that all these guys are intimidated by her.
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Well, is she meeting people mostly at the gym?
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Is she going to more business places?
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Like, you know, there s different types of guys in different places.
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So those are a couple of things that came up.
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What I don t really totally understand is why do the statements annoy her?
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I see you re an independent woman.
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Wow, you re like Wonder Woman.
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It s rare to find a strong female like you.
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Why is that annoying?
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I guess I m not quite fully wrapping my mind around that.
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Because she s saying that men don t really want to date her.
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They re more intimidated.
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And she gets annoyed by it because she just, like when someone says, oh, it s so rare to find a strong female like you, and there s all these like great things, but then there s no follow through because the guy feels like he can t have her.
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For her, it s annoying.
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Like why say these things and then not follow through?
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That s all I m getting at.
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So it s disappointing.
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It s not that the statement s annoying.
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It s the fact that she s like, oh, this person likes me, and then he drops off the face of the earth because he can t handle it.
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Right, and I think in her mind, she s like, why can t the guys just step up?
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Why can t they just date me?
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Okay, that makes sense.
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But she doesn t wanna sort of downgrade her level of capability and attractiveness.
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You can t downplay that.
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That would be so aggravating, right?
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I understand that too, right?
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Not wanting to look, oh, like a hot mess.
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Oh, I can t do anything for myself.
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Please like me, right?
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That s pathetic and not her,
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not her personality.
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So she s essentially looking for somebody who can meet her where she is and she s finding that hard to find, I guess.
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Does that sound right?
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Yeah, exactly.
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And that s why I m saying like, where is she going to meet guys?
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Like maybe she s not in the right environment to meet some of these more alpha guys that she s looking for.
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And I tell women this all the time.
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It s not about dumbing down or changing your personality.
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I mean, this woman sounds amazing, but it s more about tweaking a few things so that a guy gets to know her so that that first impression isn t off-putting to a guy.
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And what that is, we,
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which honestly we don t know, because it s just what she s reporting.
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Yeah, it s too bad, because I feel like really secure guys would just be like, yeah, it s funny, my girlfriend s like super athletic, whatever, I should step it up.
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I wouldn t, and there s a lot of athletic guys that would really dig that, but I feel like there s a lot of just normal Joes like me who wouldn t care.
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You know, oh yeah, she s working out again, she s doing this again, and it s just,
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that s what she likes to do and it s fine.
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As long as I m not like a fat body and can t keep up with anything while we re on a bike ride, that would be bad news, right?
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But it s okay to have certain skills.
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It s just unusual for the woman to be more athletic than the guy in a relationship.
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And so a lot of guys who are really sensitive to social pressure would feel that pain, that pressure, especially from friends, possibly from family, but it s pretty shallow.
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I feel like a lot of people who are well-adjusted would just not,
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I don t really care.
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I know a lot of guys who, they have girlfriends that run triathlons and they re just normal guys.
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They don t do that.
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They go for jogs and stuff like that or they like rock climbing and the girlfriend is training for the Ironman.
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It s rare, but it takes a special kind of guy to just not worry about that and not see that that s some sort of weird reflection upon him or him not being adequate.
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Yeah, no, exactly.
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And again, I don t think it s just the athleticism that s off-putting to guys.
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I really think that there s some other things.
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Like if this is a pattern that keeps happening, there s other variables here for sure.
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Well, it s not only that, right?
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It s just, it s obviously her athleticism and also the fact that she s also capable and probably expresses that really well.
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She seems like she doesn t have any chinks in her armor.
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And she says she expresses vulnerability, but the guys maybe don t see it or don t believe it.
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Or it s just the wrong kind of guy.
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It s totally possible.
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Exactly.
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I mean, she keeps saying that she gets like the loser guys are attracted to her, the broke, you know, the ones that live with mama, the recovering alcoholic.
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That means there s something about her that gives off the signal that she s got it all, that she s the strong, independent woman.
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And so I m again questioning whether or not she s eliciting from the guy that she s able to receive.
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It goes back to actually some of the stuff we were talking about before.
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Well, I hope you all enjoyed that.
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Don t forget you can email us Friday at theartofcharm.com to get your questions answered on the air.
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If you re interested in coaching with Kim, ladies, just send us a note.
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I m Jordan at theartofcharm.com.
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I ll get you to the right place.
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And we ve got the Art of Charm Challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed.
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that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444, will take you step by step on becoming better at making personal and professional connections, becoming a better networker, increasing your personal social capital and your charisma, it ll make you a better networker and a better thinker, and it s for both guys and gals, so check that out at theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or text charmed to 33444.
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Quick shout out to Laura W. in NYC, she s an OG fan of Art of Charm, literally,
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since the beginning, one of our first female fans.
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She wrote in, listening to us in her science lab.
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Now she s a real deal scientist.
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She visited me this past weekend here in San Jose.
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It s really great to see her.
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I love my AOC sisters, and she was one of the first.
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Are you in a strange land listening to my familiar voice, or our familiar voices in this case?
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If so, hit me up, and I will shout you out.
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More from AOC at theartofcharm.com.
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Now stay charming, get out there, and connect, and leave everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.