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Every week, you only get two emails.
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On Monday, you get a content rollup of everything that dropped last week, and on Fridays, I pick one topic and I personally write a deep dive on things like how to cold call, how to run a discovery call, or even how to hire an AE.
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Cheers.
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Welcome to this 30 Minutes to Presidents Club live tactic teardown.
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If you re not familiar with the folks who are on the panel, my name is Nick Segelski.
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I m going to be today s host.
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I m the founder of 30 Minutes to Presidents Club, which is the number one sales podcast in the world, actually.
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My mom always told me not to brag, but there is me bragging.
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And I am joined by Matt Dixon, who is the author of a number of best-selling books, including The Challenger Sale, as well as The Jolt Effect, which is what we re going to be focusing on today.
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The Jolt Effect s a really interesting book.
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You guys actually analyzed 2.5 million sales calls and actually have a number of insights that we re going to be talking about as it relates to moving indecisive customers.
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And then we also have Jen Allen Knuth, who alongside occasionally serving as the co-host of 30 Minutes to President s Club with me, is the founder of Demand Jen, over 20 years of sales experience out there in the field, has worked for Challenger, and she s a wonderful sales expert.
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So thank you both for joining us today.
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Folks, as it relates to today s session, I promise you,
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By the end of today, these are the big three things that you will learn.
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And if we fail on these, please send me an angry, angry LinkedIn message.
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Make fun of me all you want.
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There s going to be three things that I promise you ll get out of today s session.
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First, one of the things that I was surprised by when I was preparing for this was, I think most folks, give me a one in the chat if you ve ever lost a deal because of no decision.
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I learned that there are actually two types of no decision losses.
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And those types of losses are very, very different.
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So we re going to spend some time talking about that.
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Then we re going to be focusing on the indecision, no decision losses.
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And we re going to talk about some of the factors and the reasons that our customers get stuck so that we can do the last piece, which is we re going to talk about some very, very specific, very concrete ways that you can go get your customers unstuck today with the stuff that you learn in today s session.
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So that s what we re going to be covering.
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Y all ready for this?
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Let s do it.
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Yeah, let s do it.
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Quick aside before I jump into that, I got to thank today s sponsors.
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You can see we have a number of them.
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And when 30 Minutes to Presidents Club sponsors or rather partners with a sponsor, we always make our sponsor work with us to put together a valuable tool or template or guide that you all can use to get a little bit closer to Presidents Club.
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And so if you look in the chat right now, we ve got a link to access all of these wonderful guides and templates and toolkits that we ve created with today s sponsors.
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So thank you.
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Please go support them.
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They allow us to put on sessions like this.
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Now, with that said.
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Jen, one of the biggest things that I learned when I was preparing for this session is that there is not just one type of no decision loss.
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There are actually two types of no decision losses, and they should be thought about and treated a bit differently.
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And I m wondering if you can share some of those learnings with the audience here.
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Yeah.
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So for those of you that don t know, Matt and I worked together for about probably 10, 11 years.
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And before I share this, I want to make it known that like literally anything good I ve ever learned about sales has probably come from one of Matt s books.
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So this is a real- From a guy who doesn t do sales.
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That s ironic.
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You think real well.
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So I think, like, I personally, if I look back at my career, I have lost so many deals to no decision.
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For anyone who s like, what are we talking about in the no decision?
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It s those deals that are not a no, not a yes, right?
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And we keep, I used to keep just punting them out quarter by quarter by quarter and being like, maybe next quarter things will be different until my manager would finally be like, it s been two years.
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Give it up.
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So no decision is harder than any competitor, right?
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Because if someone chooses a competitor, they still make a choice.
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So if you look at 40 to 60% of the pipeline that you have right now, whatever quarter you re in is likely to be lost to no decision.
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The thing that has been traditionally talked about, the thing that I talk a lot about is like,
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Part of the time, 44% of the time, that s because the buyer just decides that good is good enough.
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Like maybe they were the one to raise their hand and they said, you know, we have a problem we want to solve.
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But along the way, over time, they just realized that it might still be a problem, but I m OK tolerating it.
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That s kind of a preference for the status quo.
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What Matt and his team found after analyzing 2.5 million sales calls, this was not like Matt doing a study in his garage with one other dude, like this is a really meaty analysis, which is why I love Matt s work.
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What they found was 56%.
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of those no decision losses actually were a result of the customer s inability to make a decision.
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And so if you look at that, it s not that they don t see value in change.
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It s not that the pain of same isn t great enough.
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It s just when they get down to having to make a decision, they are fearful of failure.
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And this logically makes sense.
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If you look at our own consumer personal lives,
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I think about how long it took me to buy a MacBook.
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It probably took me months to buy it because I was just overwhelmed with the idea that what if I spend so much money on the wrong thing or if it s a car, whatever the purchase might be.
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It s just an order of magnitude much higher when you get into a B2B sale.
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So what Matt found, as you can see here, there s three big drivers that make someone in a prospect role indecisive.
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So number one is lack of information.
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So this is where the customer s like, I don t know, I ve been learning about this, but I still have some unanswered questions and I m just not, I don t feel comfortable.
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I have enough information to make a decision.
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So that might be like a sign of that might be like, they just keep asking for more demos or do you have any more case studies or like endless requests for information?
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That s number one.
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Number two is valuation problems, meaning I actually don t know how to weigh all the different information that I have in making a decision.
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Like I ve got no shortage of it, but maybe it s like I see something from a competitor and now all of a sudden I m like, oh, I need to see if you can do this.
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And it s just lots of little moments like that.
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And then the third one, which personally a lot of times happened in my deals, was outcome uncertainty, meaning I am really worried that I won t look like the case study you keep shoving in my face with like a 400% ROI.
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I am uncertain that this investment is going to yield in the outcome that I want.
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It s kind of like what I often describe it as is like the what if monster.
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What if I buy this and all the good stuff doesn t happen?
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So in a nutshell, like a great book summarized in 30 seconds, I m sure I m missing a lot.
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That s kind of the big aha of it.
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It s not just, we need to get the customer to agree that good is not good enough.
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It is this whole other behavior around fear of making the wrong decision.
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So Matt, I tried to summarize a really smart book in Genspeak.
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What did I miss?
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What else would you like to add?
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To quote the great James Carville from old school, that was perfect and I have nothing to add.
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That was a really good summary.
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Jen knows brevity is not my strong suit.
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Let me offer just a couple other, peel back the layers of the onion here a little bit.
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The whole reason we actually went to look at this, it was interesting.
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If you think about a sale and basically three acts, a three-act play,
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Act one is the customer and their status quo, the way they do things today.
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Act two is get them to agree the status quo is suboptimal and they got to do something different.
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That s their statement of intent to change.
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Act three is they actually change that intent into action.
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They execute the docusign, they sign the agreement.
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And one of the things that we found a lot in these sales calls is there s this thing that happens between intent and action, where things start to fall apart on us.
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The customer starts to relitigate concerns and objections, things you thought you d answered a long time ago.
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And in sales, I think for our careers, for all the time we ve all been in sales, we ve always been taught that if that happens to you, if that customer starts to hesitate, the reason is that you haven t conquered the status quo bias, the customer s inherent inertia and laziness, frankly, their lack of desire to change.
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And so what salespeople do, and this was with remarkable consistency, is they go back and they dial up the FOMO, the fear of missing out, which I m defining for people my age, not for people your age.
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But the FOMO, they go back and they dial up the FOMO, how they do it.
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There s three things that salespeople tend to do.
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The first thing they do is they go back and try to reconvince the customer of all the benefits of the solution.
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Now you re going to miss out.
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Remember how much you love the POC and the demo was amazing.
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And like you guys, your eyes lit up and we did that pilot and all this stuff.
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And you know, you re not going to get those benefits if you don t consummate the sale.
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The second thing they do, if that doesn t work, is they try to dial up the FUD and create that burning
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platform, right?
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These problems aren t going to solve themselves, and all your competitors are using our solution.
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You re going to be left in the dust, and you can t wish these problems away.
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Try to create that urgency.
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Help the customer realize the cost of their inaction.
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And then the third thing that salespeople do, and again, with remarkable consistency, if those two things don t work, is they throw out a 10% discount that s only good this quarter.
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And that is the FOMO playbook.
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And what was surprising to us was that
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Salespeople do that.
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Again, things fall apart between intent and action all the time.
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If people go back and they dial up the FOMO, but a huge percentage of that time, it actually backfires on them.
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We found that 87% of the time when salespeople do that, especially with customers who are on board with the need to change, you ve overcome their indifference, if you will.
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With those customers, it increases the odds the deal will be lost to no decision.
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It doesn t decrease them.
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And so that was really puzzling to us.
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So that s what caused us, I think, Nick, back to your big aha.
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We didn t even think to look as to why do we end up in this no decision loss column and what are the drivers of that until we found this because it flew in the face of everything we ve talked about for a long time.
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Jen, you know this.
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In Challenger, we talk about Challengers are really good at showing the customer the pain of same is worse than the pain of change.
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And here we find that maybe that doesn t always work.
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And I think what we really, when you unpack this, what you find is that, yeah, FOMO is a really important lever for us to pull with the customer to overcome their indifference.
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But it s not just about dialing up the FOMO, it s about dialing down what I call the FOMO, the fear of messing up.
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And it s those things that Jen talked about.
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It s have I chosen the right configuration?
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I know I want to work with your company,
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But how to work with your company?
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How many years should the proposal length be?
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Should we do professional services or not?
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What integration should we prioritize?
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What use cases, et cetera?
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Too much information.
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Like I m really worried about there being a new Gartner magic quadrant that shows that this decision was not such a great decision after the decision is made.
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And then the third thing is this outcome uncertainty, the fear that I just won t get what I m paying for, or that we won t realize the full benefits of the solution.
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And those are the three things that your customers really worry about, this FOMU, or the not safe for work version is FOFU, but you guys figure out on your own what that stands for.
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The last thing I ll tell you guys is it s important to recognize this is not just a customer thing.
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This is like a human nature thing.
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This stems from something called the omission bias, which is our desire as human beings to avoid being blamed for making mistakes.
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And that desire to avoid culpability actually overweighs our strong preference to be lazy and just go with the flow and not change the status quo.
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But they result in the same thing, which is no decision loss.
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And so again, we didn t even think to look until we found that these classic sales tactics didn t always pan out the way that we thought they would.
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Amazing.
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And one of the things that I also learned here in preparing for this was
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there s sort of two no decision factors, which we just talked about, right?
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We don t beat the status quo, meaning the customer s like, hey, what I have right now, it s actually better than what you pitched, proposed, et cetera.
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And the first- Or it s good enough, right?
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Or it s good enough, correct.
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We didn t make a compelling enough case for them to say, yeah, I m gonna make the switch.
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Yeah.
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But then the other factor here is we might have made a really compelling case, but the customer is stuck.
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And what you just shared, Matt, is that all of the things that most of us have gotten trained on to beat the status quo, reaffirming the ROI or the cost of an action, giving them even another demo to show, look, this thing s amazing.
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All of the things that we ve been taught to beat the status quo actually
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hurt us when the customer is stuck in indecision.
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And so what I learned prepping for this was the first part of our sale, early, early on, when we meet with the customer and we have our first couple conversations, we shouldn t be running this overcoming indecision playbook because
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It doesn t really make sense to try to help the customer make a change if we haven t even really given them, or rather, it doesn t make sense to overcome indecision if we haven t given them a reason to make that decision.
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But then deeper into the sales process, we actually need to dial down on the beating of the status quo effort and dial up our effort as it relates to helping them get unstuck.
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And so that was one of my big learnings here in terms of how we change the percentage of effort that we give in the conversations we re having with our customers.
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Yeah, it s very well said, Nick.
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I think the way I think about this in really simple terms is the first act or the first battle you ve got to fight in sales is overcoming customer indifference towards change, right?
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You got to help them realize the cost of their inaction.
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You got to dial up the FOMO, dial up the FUD.
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you know, you got to get them off the fence, right?
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You got to get them to want to change it.
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By the way, if you don t do that, you re never going to have an indecision problem.
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So if that s your problem, you can hang up now and go focus on that first thing.
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And by the way, I would tell you, there are lots of great resources.
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I tend to be partial to Challenger.
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Challenger customer are great resources for that battle to overcome the customer status quo.
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But I think what we realized in the research is that that was really only half the story because great salespeople have realized,
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like there s a time to dial up the FOMO right to overcoming difference and there s a time to dial down the FOMO and figuratively because literally this would be creepy but put your arm around the customer s shoulder and say,
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It s going to be okay.
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Like you ve made a great decision.
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You ve chosen exactly the right configuration for your needs.
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You ve done plenty of research.
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And by the way, you don t need to because I ve already done it for you.
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And I m going to tell you what you can pay attention to, what you should ignore and be a good steward of your time.
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And then lastly, we ve got your back.
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You re not going to look like a fool.
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You re going to look like a hero here.
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and trust us and let s, let s go forward together.
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And like, that s a very different kind of motion.
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And I think unfortunately, and this is the reason that there s FOMO tactics when used with indecisive customers who, by the way,
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are not making a decision to save the status quo.
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Just to be clear, those people want to buy from you, but they can t.
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They physically can t because they re worried about messing up and what might go wrong.
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But using those FOMO tactics with those customers who are indecisive and worried about failing, well, really all you re doing is using scare tactics to sell to somebody who s already afraid.
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But they re not afraid of the thing you think they re afraid of.
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They re not afraid of missing out.
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They re afraid of messing up.
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And those are two totally different things.
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Amazing.
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Folks, let me know in the chat, write the word jolt for me, J-O-L-T.
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If any of you have a deal right now where you know they want to buy, you ve beaten the status quo, but they re stuck.
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There s a lot of that going around these days.
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I ve got a lot of jolt in there.
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And someone got upset at me for talking too long earlier.
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They said, let the guest talk.
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And so Jen, you re, I think the guest they may be referring to, I was going to summarize the jolt effect.
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And folks, we re going to get into some specific things you can do for each letter, which this is the playbook for how to overcome that indecision.
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But Jen, could you give me maybe the 90 second summary of the overall jolt effect?
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And then folks.
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Let me know if you re happy that I let the guest talk.
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Okay.
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So the cool thing about Jolt is it s very tactical.
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Challenger, everybody knows I live and die for Challenger and it s how I learned how to sell, but this is very much tactical actions you can take.
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So what we re going to talk about is number one, why is it important to judge the level of indecision of the customer and how do you do that?
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What are some tactics to do it?
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Number two,
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This kind of goes against how I was taught to sell growing up, but it totally makes sense to me now.
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How do you offer your recommendation with a prescriptive manner that puts the client s or prospect s needs first?
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Number three, how do you limit the exploration?
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So not be like,
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Don t worry, just take my word for it.
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But how do you frame that so someone actually does lean into your recommendation, your experience?
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And number four, what are some tactics where you can just acknowledge buying anything today is really freaking scary?
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What are some things you can do to minimize the upfront risk you are asking from your customer or prospect?
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So that s what Matt s going to share with us.
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And then I will chime in with examples where I got it really wrong and a couple of examples where I somehow managed to get it right.
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Wait, you ve gotten it wrong before, Jen.
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That s not true.
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You could do a whole webinar about that stuff I got wrong.
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Only once in a while.
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All right.
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So let s start with this first one.
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So the first key to overcoming indecision is to first, J, judge the level of indecision.
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And this one, I was like, what does it matter?
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Why do I need to do this?
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Talk to me about why this matters in the playbook for overcoming indecision, Matt.
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Yeah.
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So the way I want everyone to think about, while it s a fun acronym and it says what it does, right?
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We re trying to jolt our customers out if they re stuck in decisive state.
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The way I want you to think about this is that it s more of a hub and spoke.
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So everything starts with the J, but based on what you learn, you might go to the L first or the T first or the O and then back to the T. So think of it that way.
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It s not a one, two, three, four kind of step
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process.
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So judging level of indecision, everything starts there, because we got to know what we re dealing with, right?
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We got to size the level of indecision, we got to understand what s driving it.
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And we actually got to make tough calls about whether that level of indecision can actually be overcome, or is this a waste of our time.
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So the first thing I would say, submit to all of you is if you asked 100 of your customers, if they consider themselves to be decisive business people, 100 of those 100 will say they are.
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The problem is that only 13 of them are telling the truth.
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So the data is pretty clear on this across two and a half million sales calls.
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87% of the calls we looked at had customers who were either moderately or highly indecisive.
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So that is, I m sorry, I got some dog activity here in the background.
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So they re either moderately or highly indecisive.
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13% of them are totally decisive.
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So if you find one of those 13% of buyers, these are the people who are unencumbered by fear of failure, you should sell them everything right away.
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But the problem is most people are not.
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Now, here s the real issue is that I think buyers don t like talking about fear of failure because that s embarrassing.
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It s much easier to consider myself a decisive executive or manager
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in my company, but you got to get it on the table in a way you can deal with it.
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Now, in the book, we talk about screening for indecision in three different dimensions.
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So the first one is understanding who is this person, right?
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And people are differently decisive or indecisive.
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Like we all have that friend who orders last at the restaurant and then tells the wait person to come back.
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and then debates whether they ordered the right thing, and then they run to the kitchen to change their order.
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We ve all got that threat, right?
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And some of us are not like that, but we are all kind of on a continuum of levels of indecision.
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So we spent a lot of time in the book talking about different personality types and markers of decisiveness.
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Here s one to watch out for, and this is a killer for salespeople, the difference between maximizers and satisficers.
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So a maximizer customer is somebody who insists that
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or is not happy until you can demonstrate that you are the fastest, the cheapest, generate the highest level of productivity, you ve got the biggest partner ecosystem, you re the highest in the Gardener Magic quadrant.
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They are not happy unless you are the best across the board, which of course, no vendor is the best across the board.
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A satisficer is a customer who can prioritize.
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They can say, look, across the 10 attributes we re looking at in making this decision, these three are the most important.
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These other ones, you just have to be good enough.
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And these other ones over here, we don t really care about.
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That s a satisficer.
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If a customer is a maximizer, run, don t walk, right?
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Because you ll never convince that customer that you are the best across the board.
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Second, purchase scenarios.
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So this speaks to like, is it they re overwhelmed with too many options?
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They re still mired in doing all this research and they want to become an expert or they re just worried about the what if monster, as Jen said before.
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So that s what about this purchase is making them fearful.
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And then last is the contextual factors.
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So think about the economy right now.
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There s a lot of trepidation.
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We ve just gone through this reckoning in SaaS, where there s tons of churn.
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People are realizing they bought all these SaaS products, and a lot of it s not going used.
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And the CFO came calling, and they just started whacking C licenses, and churning out vendors, and canceling contracts, and you name it.
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I mean, a lot of companies are going through some fairly tight times right now.
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And so the external context that a customer is living within, within their company, their industry, or just the market in general, can make normally decisive people pretty indecisive.
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So you ve got to think about indecision and those different dimensions.
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But the most important thing is this, how do you get, so recognizing almost everyone is indecisive, 87% of your customers are.
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There s lots of dimensions of indecision, but customers are embarrassed talking about it.
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So how do we get it on the table so that it can be dealt with and managed?
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And so we came up with this technique called pings and echoes.
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And by the way, this is not in the books, it s bonus material for everybody.
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But we discovered this after we wrote the book, because this question came up from folks like,
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Should I ask customers, like, do you consider yourself decisive?
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Like when you, Jen, when you go to the cheesecake factory, do you leave satisfied because you know what to order or hungry because you got overwhelmed with choice?
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Like, that is not a great question.
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And most of your customers will get pretty upset with you for asking or even suggesting that they are not decisive people, but you ve got to make it okay to talk about it.
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So how do we do it?
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The pings and echoes technique is borrowed from submarine warfare.
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If you think about a surface ship trying to find a submarine, what it does is it literally sends a ping or a sound out into the water, and then it s trying to generate a reflection back by using sonar.
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That reflection tells them a lot.
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It tells them, is it a friendly submarine or enemy submarine?
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Is it actually a submarine or just a whale?
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Is it heading towards us or away from us?
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All that good stuff.
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We do the same thing in sail.
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We don t ask open-ended questions.
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What we do is we ping for the source of indecision.
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You start with a hypothesis.
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So, for instance, I might say to you, Nick, I might say, look, Nick, we ve been talking for a while.
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We ve had some great conversations.
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SPEAKER_00
POC was awesome.
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The demos have been great.
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SPEAKER_00
I think you were excited by what you heard from our reference customers, etc.
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SPEAKER_00
But I kind of feel like right now, this is usually at this point in the sale where a lot of my customers struggle with what s the nice to have and what s the need to have.
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SPEAKER_00
And I might ve made that situation worse by throwing a lot of stuff at you, because we re really proud of what we do here, as you can tell.
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SPEAKER_00
But I m curious, do you think you and your team are really clear on what should go in the proposal and what should be left out?
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Do you know where you want to start with us?
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Because I know that can be a hard decision
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And I m just curious if you guys are clear on what, again, what should be and what should be out.
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Now, the reflection I might get back could be something like, you know what, honestly, we don t know.
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And as I told you early on, budget is limited, resources are scarce, and we got to get this right.
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And so we can t have it all.
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SPEAKER_00
So I could use a little bit of guidance.
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SPEAKER_00
What do companies like ours start with when working with your company?
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SPEAKER_00
Or they might say, no, we re just polite people.
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SPEAKER_00
We re nice Midwesterners.
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SPEAKER_00
We re just being polite.
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SPEAKER_00
There s a lot of stuff you showed us we have no interest in.
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SPEAKER_00
So let me just tell you what we re interested in, what we can stop talking about.
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SPEAKER_00
Or they may say something like, you know what?
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SPEAKER_00
No, we re pretty clear, but you know what we are a little bit nervous about?
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SPEAKER_00
Putting that 10X improvement in sales productivity, that ROI measure into our
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proposal of the CFO because I m not sure we re going to, we will screw this up every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
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SPEAKER_00
There s no way we can promise that.
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SPEAKER_00
So again, we got to get this on the table and not in a way that outs our customer, but makes it okay to talk about this so that we can do something about it.
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SPEAKER_01
I just want to compliment you on, folks, if you ve listened to the way that Matt phrased that introduction of the topic with the prospective customer or the current customer here, he used what s called the customer voice, meaning he said, hey, with other folks I ve talked to, this is one of the things that sometimes comes up.
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SPEAKER_01
And that can be a really, really safe way to bring up potentially
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sticky topics with customers in a way that lets them retain their status, but also shows your own credibility in that, hey, I talk with other folks like you, and this is something that s come up.
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SPEAKER_01
And that actually gives you an immense amount of credibility and allows them to safely say, yeah, that is me too.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
Jen, I think that
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SPEAKER_00
Sorry, go ahead, Jen.
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SPEAKER_00
I think you had a story on this one that you wanted to share.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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My successes and my failures.
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SPEAKER_02
So this is one where I think the other behavior that I would sometimes see.
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So when I was selling sales methodology, like anyone who s ever sold that, there s a thousand sales methodologies.
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Lots of people weigh in on those.
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So one of the other cues I would see is just the buying group would get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, which was a byproduct of people feeling nervous to make a decision without consulting everybody and everybody s mother and everybody s best friend.
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And so one of the things that I started baking into my sales process
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was to be able to assess early on, can this group decide and agree on anything at all?
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SPEAKER_02
Like anyone who s ever sold into sales and marketing knows there are some departments that just will always take the opposite stance of the other because it is such a bad cross-functional, like there s just no cross-functional alignment.
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So specifically what I would do is I would come in, I would say, here s where we are in the process.
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SPEAKER_02
Looks like we re evaluating this methodology and this methodology.
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Before we get too in the weeds, let s just agree on what are the set of problems that we re looking to solve here.
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And one of the biggest tells looking back now that I wish I had was when you have an inability to even agree on the problem.
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Good freaking luck getting agreement on the solution.
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And so our most precious resource is our time.
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I would try to bake those moments in early when I saw them inviting more and more people in to be able to say, could I even get agreement on a small thing before I ask for a big thing like a purchase decision?
2
SPEAKER_00
I love that.
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SPEAKER_00
I love that technique.
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SPEAKER_00
And this is what s also interesting.
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There s this dimension that Jen brought in around buying committee.
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So I think sometimes when people read the Jolt Effect and they hear
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podcasts or they re on webinars like these.
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I think they sometimes ask a question like, this is interesting from a single seller perspective, in a single buyer perspective, but what happens when that person s surrounded by a bunch of other indecisive people?
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SPEAKER_00
And this is interesting.
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SPEAKER_00
So this is kind of jolt on, you know, multiple dimensions, meaning you ve gotta be able to understand what s making this person sitting across the table from you or on the other end of the Zoom from you, what is making them indecisive?
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But remember, you might be able to overcome that, but what happens when they go to the buying committee and their 12 colleagues show up and they re worried about all kinds of other stuff?
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And so have you equipped them to overcome the indecision of the buying committee?
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So it s a really, it s a very important dimension.
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By the way, quick forecasting tip, I learned this just the other day.
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When members of the buying committee join the Zoom and introduce themselves to each other, and they don t actually know what, they ve never met each other,
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Add one month to the forecast and one month to the sales cycle.
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That is the worst.
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Amazing.
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SPEAKER_01
So what I m hearing from this judge piece is there are things that we can look for and we can observe.
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We can figure out, I can pattern match the person s personality to, okay, do they act like Armand when he goes out to dinner with me and he keeps waffling back and forth on what he s going to order?
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SPEAKER_01
There s other stuff, though, where I can also actually bring this up with the customer.
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And the way that I heard you do it, Matt, was, hey, you used that client voice, and that was really powerful.
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SPEAKER_01
And then the last big takeaway I ve gotten from this section is, Jen, one of the things that you will do to test this is you will aim for problem agreement before you work to get to solution agreement with the customer.
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SPEAKER_01
And I ve heard you talk about this on the 30 Minutes to Presidents Club podcast, Jen, where you actually talked about kicking off a big team meeting with actually a problem agreement discussion before you get into the, hey, here s how we help.
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SPEAKER_01
And I m wondering, could you just give me like the 60 second on how you do that?
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Because that was one of my favorite things that I ve learned from you in sales.
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SPEAKER_01
And then we ll move to the O, which is offer your recommendation.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, so I think one of the things that s really common, especially with so many different stakeholders in a business vying for the same smaller pool of money, is you might have a general agreement of the problem, but there might be different priority levels of it.
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So if I m in customer success, I might care a lot more about retention than my peers over in new logo.
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So what I try to do in that meeting is they re all going to be affected if they buy a sales methodology.
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But we have to be aligned on why they are buying it to begin with.
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So if someone over here in CS believes that retention is the biggest problem, and someone over here in New Logo thinks New Logo acquisition is the biggest problem, they might fundamentally disagree at face value that they should do sales training.
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SPEAKER_02
So my job in that meeting is to actually surface that disagreement, get them talking about why they disagree, and in doing so, the hope is that they can actually realize there s more common ground there than they believed, and they can then walk out of that with problem agreement so that when we do get to solution,
3
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we re not fighting those battles later stage.
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Because at that point, it s really hard to objection handle any issue when someone s like, I don t believe this is the right problem to solve.
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SPEAKER_02
So long TLDR is make it very easy for your customers to disagree.
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SPEAKER_02
For one, because of what Matt said, we want to observe how much disagreement and dysfunction exists.
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But two, because that s probably going to be your best way to find common ground versus talking at them and telling them they should agree.
3
SPEAKER_00
I also think it s great.
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SPEAKER_00
Go ahead, Matt, please.
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SPEAKER_00
Sorry, Nick, I was going to add one thing before I forget.
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A question I always get on this is, is it safe to assume that senior decision makers, economic buyers are more decisive than everybody else, right?
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After all these people get paid the big bucks to make those tough calls.
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And I would tell you that in our research, we found no correlation between level of indecision and seniority or title or role or function or anything like that.
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But I will also tell you that senior people are much less likely to cop to it than people farther down.
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They don t like it and they will get, again, if you re not careful, they will get deeply offended at the suggestion that they re indecisive.
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SPEAKER_00
I think I may have told you guys a story about doing a dinner where I talked about this research and there was a CTO from a big manufacturing company there.
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She actually got up and stormed out, which I think is the only time that, well, the only time I ll admit that people have done that in a dinner I ve been at.
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and got really offended at the suggestion that senior executives like her were indecisive.
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She said, I make the tough calls.
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I would get fired if I was afraid of making decisions.
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I make 100 tough decisions a day.
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She left, and the account team from this company told me after everyone had cleared out that she s one of the most indecisive customers I work with.
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SPEAKER_00
Again, self-awareness is not our forte as human beings, and especially not for senior executives.
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And so you just got to tread carefully.
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SPEAKER_00
And again, the client voice, the contextualization, you re not alone.
3
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Lots of people struggle with this.
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SPEAKER_00
It s kind of the way you clear the decks and you make it okay to talk about it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Amazing.
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SPEAKER_01
So we ve made it okay to talk about it.
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SPEAKER_01
Let s move to our next letter here.
3
SPEAKER_01
So the next letter is O, which is offer your recommendation.
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SPEAKER_01
And one of the things that I got taught when I was a new salesperson was, hey, you ve got to make sure you ask a lot of great questions to learn what your customer is looking for.
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SPEAKER_01
Ask them questions.
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SPEAKER_01
And the more questions you ask about what they want and what they need, the better off you are.
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SPEAKER_01
And I learned that there s actually some nuance here.
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that might not always work when we re trying to get them to overcome that indecisiveness.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, Matt, talk to me about offer your recommendation and what this one is.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, I think so this this deals with this challenge of choice overload, too many options.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think the social science research on this, any of you read the Paradox of Choice, Barry Schwartz s book or listen to his TED talk is pretty fascinating.
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SPEAKER_00
It tells us that, you know, we would all say like, oh, yeah, we love choices as customers.
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SPEAKER_00
We love like endless options.
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But it turns out that when it comes to making decisions that people make with conviction and that they don t try to backtrack on, too many options can actually lead to bad outcomes.
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SPEAKER_00
One of the ones we re talking about here is no decision, but it also leads to things like post-purchase regret.
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SPEAKER_00
Customers who second guess what they bought after the decision was made, and then they try to unwind it, get out of it, and change it, and cancel it, and so on and so forth.
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SPEAKER_00
So, but this doesn t mean that offering options is bad, but it does mean that we got to know the time and the place to do so.
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What we found is the best place to offer choice to your customer and options is at the trade show booth, like when you re first interacting with the customer and on those first couple calls.
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SPEAKER_00
And when you re first showing the customer the solution, look, paint the art of the possible, show them all the integration, show them all the partner, the partner ecosystem, show them the different use cases.
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SPEAKER_00
Let a thousand flowers bloom.
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SPEAKER_00
But as you move forward in the sale, if you want your customer to actually pick something, you ve got to chalk the field and you have to narrow the consideration set.
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SPEAKER_00
It s very clear that those customers who are presented with narrower choice sets are more likely to make a decision, more likely to feel confident about the decision and less likely to backtrack on the decision and try to undo it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So know the time and the place to offer options and know when to start narrowing things up, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
The other thing we want to think about, and this is to Nick s point, in sales, you were taught the same as everyone in sales, Nick, which was, it s all about diagnosing the customer s needs, ask great questions, figure out what they need.
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SPEAKER_00
and then propose a solution that addresses their needs.
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SPEAKER_00
After all, the customer is always right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And as salespeople, I think we are always a little bit sheepish around telling the customer what they should buy, because what if they don t like the thing we suggest and they want to go into it?
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SPEAKER_00
Now we re at odds with the customer, or maybe the customer thinks less of our expertise if we directed them in a way that they don t agree with.
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SPEAKER_00
Now, what I tell you, though, is to put that concern aside and remember
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SPEAKER_00
that your customer actually does want your advice in that moment.
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SPEAKER_00
They re worried about making the wrong choice, and they re looking to you to help guide them to the right decision for their organization.
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SPEAKER_00
If you think about this, there s a simple metaphor or analogy I d use, but think about the last time you went to an expensive restaurant, you looked at the menu and it s got all these great entrees, they re all very expensive, and you ask the wait person what they recommend.
3
SPEAKER_00
How helpful would it be if the wait person said, well, what are you in the mood to eat tonight?
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SPEAKER_00
Like that s no help at all, right?
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SPEAKER_00
It s a total waste of your time to even ask the question.
3
SPEAKER_00
But what do great weight people do?
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SPEAKER_00
What they do is they say, you know, this is my favorite dish on the menu.
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SPEAKER_00
It s the one that like we sell out of it every night.
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SPEAKER_00
We ve still got it tonight.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you re in luck.
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SPEAKER_00
But we all of our Yelp reviews, like most of them reference this dish is what we re best known for.
3
SPEAKER_00
But if you re in the mood for something lighter, maybe you want a vegetarian option.
3
SPEAKER_00
I also like this dish a little bit of a sleeper dish on our menu.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s a personal favorite of mine.
3
SPEAKER_00
Love it.
3
SPEAKER_00
But remember, everything we make here is amazing.
3
SPEAKER_00
You really can t go wrong.
3
SPEAKER_00
Something very important happens in that moment.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s what psychologists called the delegation effect, which is the burden of making a bad decision,
4
SPEAKER_00
which up to that point is solely on the decider s shoulders, is now shared between the decider and the recommender.
4
SPEAKER_00
So in that scenario, let s say you ordered what the wait person recommended and you didn t like it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Whose fault is that?
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, technically it s your fault because you ordered it, but it s also kind of their fault because they told you to order it.
4
SPEAKER_00
So that people feel much better when you share in that burden of making a bad decision.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s a simple example, but this actually works just as effectively in complex B2B sales as well.
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SPEAKER_00
When we can share in that burden of making a bad decision and show the customer, you know, customers like you start here, they get a lot of value out of this configuration or this use case as a starting point with us.
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SPEAKER_00
customers feel much, much better and much more confident that they are heading down the right path.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s not just a choose your own adventure and they re not sure how it s gonna pan out.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, one really tactical thing that I learned to start doing way too late, I wish I learned earlier, is before you get to this phase with a customer, go back to your call recording software, look for three or four other customers who are similar to them in need state, and then skip forward to the part of the call
4
SPEAKER_01
where they start asking questions about your proposal.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then you can almost come up with like a pre-wired list of chances are this type of customer, this type of prospect will likely ask me this.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I know to preempt it.
4
SPEAKER_01
So an example would be back when I was selling Challenger, if I had a customer that sold through a channel, I could almost always
4
SPEAKER_01
count on them having the same four pushbacks on the proposal.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so it s how we frame it up front to preempt that objection, I think, versus waiting for it to be said and then trying to objection handle it totally changes the tonality of the conversation and also puts you in the seat where you are more of an advisor than you are just a sales rep fielding every question that hits us in the face.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s such a great technique.
4
SPEAKER_00
So Ted McKenna, my co-author on the Jolt Effect, calls that a pre-buttle.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s not a rebuttal.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s after the objection comes up.
4
SPEAKER_00
A pre-buttle is getting ahead of it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you know, it s also interesting, and this will go, we ll get into the L here in a moment, but that is a tremendous way for a seller to demonstrate their credibility and expertise.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it shows, I ve done this before.
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SPEAKER_00
I ve helped customers just like you navigate through this.
4
SPEAKER_00
I already know what you re thinking before you even articulate it, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
I m one step ahead of you, is a massive, massive competence giver.
4
SPEAKER_02
So to recap what I ve gotten here.
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SPEAKER_02
Early in the sales process, when we first meet the customer, maybe the first couple discussions, that is the time when it s okay to say, hey, you ve got a lot of options in front of you.
4
SPEAKER_02
But as we progress in the sale, we need to recommend the narrowing of options to customer.
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SPEAKER_02
Hey, I don t think you should do that one.
4
SPEAKER_02
I don t think you should do that one.
4
SPEAKER_02
What I would recommend
4
SPEAKER_02
Mr. Customer is, we probably should just be looking at these three SKUs.
4
SPEAKER_02
And that s where I would recommend we spend the rest of our time together, is making a decision between which of those is the best fit.
4
SPEAKER_02
When we offer this recommendation, as opposed to asking them, hey, what do you think?
4
SPEAKER_02
What this does is, if you put yourself in the head of the customer, they feel a lot of pressure as it relates to making this decision.
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SPEAKER_02
They have all the responsibility as it relates to, will I go with A, B, C, or D?
4
SPEAKER_02
And when you say, hey, I actually think we should narrow this, you now share ownership for making that decision.
4
SPEAKER_02
And you mentioned earlier, some people are afraid that the customer is going to get mad at them.
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SPEAKER_02
Like, what if they don t like that one?
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Well, we re making a recommendation based upon our own best judgment.
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We re making a recommendation based upon what we ve learned about the customer.
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We re not just saying, oh, yeah, get that one because I get the most commission.
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We re saying you should go with that one because of what I ve learned about you.
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And if we believe that our customer should do something, we should tell them.
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And it s a lot better than them getting mad at themselves or failing.
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If we think something is in the customer s best interest, it is on us to share that with the customer.
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And that doesn t make you seem salesy, and that doesn t make you seem biased.
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It actually makes you appear as an expert.
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When you say, I ve learned this about you,
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My rec is because of that you go this direction.
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Yep.
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And then the last piece that I got here is sometimes we can make recommendations to go this way or another as a free bottle, meaning if there s an objection you think might exist.
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we can actually share, hey, you know, I was giving some thought to our last conversation and on the proposal, you ll see you have a couple options.
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I don t even think we should focus on this one over here because it s not built for a team of your size, might be something that we say.
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And when we actually say, hey, we shouldn t go this way, or hey, one of the common concerns somebody has is this, here s how I might think about it if I were you, it makes things easier for the customer.
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And
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I think the big issue I see a lot of salespeople have with this one is they worry that they re going to appear salesy or super biased because they are biased.
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They want, I want you to buy my product, not that guy over there.
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What advice would Jen, Matt, would you give to a salesperson that has that concern?
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I even saw Deepak put in the chat, he said, I sell to family businesses and I don t see that working.
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So I think what s interesting is
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So we all know, everybody knows when you ask the wait person or we all suspect, right?
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And this is actually, I think we should go to the L because this actually kind of ties in with what we re talking about here on your question, Nick.
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Why don t we do that?
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Why don t we move to the L?
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Yeah.
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So I think our suspicion is that when you look to the other, your counterparty, the salesperson,
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for advice.
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So you go to the restaurant, you ask, what wine do they recommend?
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They re going to recommend a really expensive bottle.
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What entree they recommend?
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They re going to recommend the market price thing, which you get surprised how much it was when you get the bill, right?
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But they re going to get a bigger tip if they suggest the more expensive thing.
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And so they re kind of a biased source of information there.
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A lot of this has to do with overcoming what psychologists call the agency dilemma.
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Maybe let me back up because I think
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What we re talking about here in terms of offering choice works on the offer, the recommendation also works on this idea of limit the exploration.
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Remember, this is the problem of the customer doing endless amounts of research.
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What s really dangerous about this, this is the customer who wants to do endless demos, like Jen said earlier, another reference call, another POC in a different part of their business.
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They want to talk to your partners, you name it.
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It s just endless information consumption.
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For the average salesperson, that actually feels good, right?
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Because it s customers engaged in the purchase process, they re engaged in the learning journey.
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And better yet, it gives you something to tell your manager at the next pipeline review, oh, no, no, I got another reference call set up with these guys, right?
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So there s something you can put into the CRM and something you can tell your manager.
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But beyond a certain point, customers will start suffering from analysis paralysis, and you think they re getting closer to decision, but they re actually moving farther away from a decision.
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Now, the key here is to understand why they re doing that.
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And the reason they re doing that is because they don t trust you to tell them what they need to know.
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Because of what we just talked about, Nick, or what you were asking about, that they believe you are a biased source of information.
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They believe you are paid to put one over on them, to hide the dirty laundry, to not be honest with them.
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So quite literally, the way you combat this, the way you get the customer to stop trying to be an expert and start trusting you as their expert,
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First, you ve got to build up some trust, and then you ve got to show you re an expert.
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It s not very complicated, but let me explain what we found.
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In these sales calls, what we found high-performing sellers will do very early on is be direct and candid with the customer about things that, like you said before, I love that phrase, Nick.
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I don t think this solution is right for you.
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And by the way, even better if it s the more expensive version.
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I don t think that s going to work for you.
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It s not a great spend of money for a team your size, for an organization like you.
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Or I know you re really excited about this integration, but I got to be honest with you, it s not really ready for prime time.
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We re still working out the kinks.
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Got some early adopters, six months from now, it s going to be a thing of beauty.
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Right now, it s a little bit choppy.
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I don t want you to build your whole business case around that.
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based on what you re looking for, and we found this, lots of examples in this, in the calls, based on what you re looking for, we re actually not the best vendor for you.
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I would actually direct you to our competitor.
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They re way, way better at that.
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And I actually know people over there, be happy to make an introduction for you.
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Those moments are incredibly powerful for customers because it teaches them something very important.
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you are not there to put one over on them and oversell them, you are there to help them get to a great decision.
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And at some level, you don t care whether they buy from you, and this is a little bit extreme, you don t care whether they buy from you or from the competitor, or they do nothing.
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As long as that s the right answer for them, your only objective is to help get them to that decision.
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So you gotta think about picking those spots early on and planting that flag and saying, I am here to be honest with you, and I m gonna be honest about our product, about what you should do, where you should spend your money, and where you should save your money.
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Now, the other part of getting this right, of trusting you as an expert, is you ve got to become an expert.
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You ve got to show your expertise.
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And here s where we see salespeople getting this wrong.
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This is especially problematic in tech companies or truly complex sales.
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Salespeople today tend to show up with the clown car of expertise.
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on every single sales call, right?
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It s the solutions engineer, it s the product person, it s the executive sponsors, the customer success manager, it s, you know, the part of the representative from the partner, it goes on and on and on.
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And what the salesperson does is they basically punt to these people.
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And the conversation goes great.
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The customer loves talking to the people who are deep on the technical questions that they have.
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They love that.
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It s amazing.
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You re sitting back and you re thinking, let the good times roll.
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This deal is coming in.
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This is amazing.
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They re getting all the information they need.
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But something really bad is happening to you in that moment, which is you are actively getting delegated down to the person you sound like.
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If you only sound like a glorified MC or a coordinator, that s all the customer is going to see you as.
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So what place will you ever have guiding them on what configuration to choose or helping them make a difficult choice when you don t know a heck of a lot more about this than they do?
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So in some respects, this is about, you know, be conversant enough in your product.
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You don t have to be a solutions as you re a product person, but you got to be more knowledgeable than the customer.
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And you ve got to demonstrate that on call.
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So be careful with your product partners because they will want to talk and they will want to go.
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I ve done this to Jen on calls.
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I m the product guy.
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Jen is slacking me or texting me like shut up.
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I got to get to work, you know, but product people love being helpful and they will go.
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And it s bad news for you as a salesperson, because again, you ve got to be able to take control and be seen as the quarterback in those conversations and have a modicum of expertise yourself.
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When you do that stuff.
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The customer suddenly realizes, I don t need to know it all because I m working with Jen and Jen is going to steer me the right way.
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She s totally honest.
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She s an honest broker with me and she knows her stuff.
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And when she doesn t, she can find the right people to get the answers I need.
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That is the key to getting the customer to stop trying to be an expert and start trusting you as their expert.
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Very quick example, right now in demand gen, one of the things I work on with customers is helping them with cold email.
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And cold email means a lot of different things to a lot of people.
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So when someone comes in in the first conversation to what Matt said, I m very explicit around what I am not good at.
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So if someone s like,
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want to rewrite a bunch of cadences.
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Whether they say it or not, I assume somewhere in their head that might be part of it.
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So I will lead with, look, when we talk about cold email, there s a place where I m specialized and a place where I m not.
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If you re looking for someone to rewrite your nurture sequences and things like that, I m not the best person, but I ve got three names of people that I think could do a really good job of that.
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If you re looking for targeted outreach, that s more my lane.
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And that opens up, honestly,
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It also just creates a safer space where you re not in this issue where you re trying to act like you can do things you can t.
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It s really easy to tell by the prospect, and then you lose all of the credibility that you ve built up up until that point.
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So I think this is something I see a lot with really great performers.
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They are very confident and comfortable telling exactly what they can t do because they know that breeds trust.
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Amazing.
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I get asked, somebody asked me just a few weeks ago, like, hey, can we hire you to join some of our sellers on their sales calls and like,
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You know, I m like, no, you don t understand.
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I just write about this stuff.
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I don t actually do.
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Oh man.
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All right.
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We got to get to the last letter, but to recap what I learned on this one, one, you actually build a ton of credibility when you start and preemptively tell the customer the stuff that you are not great at, because now they re not stressing about looking for what s wrong with your product or your organization.
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you upfront told them, and they can actually now focus on the areas that you are strong.
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Two, you build immense credibility when you re not just the rah-rah salesperson who everything you do is amazing.
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Every organization has flaws.
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Every product has flaws.
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We ve had flaws on this webinar, folks.
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So it s OK to preemptively own that.
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You actually build an immense amount of trust.
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And then the last piece, which actually came from when we were on the last letter, was the pre-bottle idea.
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If you can anticipate what the customer might have a concern around or a question around and preemptively solve or answer that for them, it shows that you know what you are talking about, and it lowers their stress about, oh gosh, all of this is on me to figure out, and they feel like they can trust you.
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We got to move to the last letter and we really only have three minutes for it because we ve got to do some outro stuff in a second.
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So let s move to the last one, which is take risk off the table.
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Talk to me about this one.
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Maybe give me the 90 second summary, Matt, and then two keys, two keys to taking risk off the table or de-risking the purchase decision.
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The first one is early.
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You got to manage expectations.
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Look,
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We love when the customer inbounds to us and says, I saw that proof point or that case on your website and the 10X improvement in sales productivity your software was able to generate for us.
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If you could do that, we re in.
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I can take that to the CFO.
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And we love that.
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And we re thinking, if you re excited about that, I m not going to talk you out of it.
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What high performers do, though, is they will focus on the old adage, under-promise, over-deliver.
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So look, that is certainly possible, but you ve got to understand about that company.
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And I was a part of that deal.
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everything went perfectly smoothly.
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They resourced it to the hilt.
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They had no other priorities going on.
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And we know sometimes that doesn t happen.
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So here s what I d recommend.
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Let s build the business case around a 5x improvement in sales productivity.
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Why?
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Because we see that 100% of the time.
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And that sets you up to overperform.
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What I don t want to happen is that you build your business case around 10x, and we come in at 8, and then you re getting in trouble for having underperformed relative to projections.
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That s early.
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Late, as we think about this, we ve got to create safety net options for our customers.
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And there s a whole lot of ways we can do this.
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I ll give you just a couple of quick examples.
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Very easy thing to just do it.
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You should be pulling forward your implementation of your customer success team to talk about the roadmap from signature to value.
5
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And doing that before you get the signature, right?
5
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Instill the confidence that you guys have done this before.
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SPEAKER_00
You know where the landmines and pitfalls are.
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You know the do s and don ts.
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and you are there to get their back and ride shotgun with them every step of the way until they get to value, there s other stuff we can do too.
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SPEAKER_00
We can proactively recommend they buy professional services support.
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That way, if things slip, we ve got the A-team lined up, it s already funded, they can step in and get things back on track.
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Or here s another great one, suggesting the customer they start smaller than perhaps they want.
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The customer s eyes sometimes get bigger than their stomachs,
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And high performers, average performers love that because they re thinking, I m going to Cancun, like that s going to be amazing.
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High performers, though, know that that s sometimes a recipe not just for big buying committees, lots of layers of approval, but also a lot of outcome uncertainty late in the game.
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This is a big bet the farm purchase when what we could have done is suggested, let s start here in this part of your business in this narrow use case, get some runs on the board, learn how to work with each other and then expand from there.
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Is a deal you re going to get done faster, it s going to lay the groundwork for a great expansion moving forward.
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How do we do?
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All right.
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That s like your time to give an example.
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I don t know how you top that, but I think it s almost like when you feel like you re really hungry and you order a big meal and then you look at it and you re like, oh, I actually didn t want all that later.
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SPEAKER_02
That is we can almost anticipate that will be what the customer will think.
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So I remember back when I was selling
5
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We had this massive solution.
5
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It could have been a six-figure, seven-figure deal.
5
SPEAKER_02
It could have got me to 50% of my goal.
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And I just kept holding on to like, nope, I m selling all or nothing.
5
SPEAKER_02
And it was like a source of pride for me.
5
SPEAKER_02
And what did I get?
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SPEAKER_02
I got nothing because my ego was overriding reality, which is especially right now, risk is the biggest threat to our deals.
5
SPEAKER_02
And even if the customer isn t asking for it,
5
SPEAKER_02
It does not serve us poorly to start small and work our way back big.
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So I think a lot of times it s our own ego or our desire to book a really big deal that gets in the way of doing it.
5
SPEAKER_02
If we look back to the numbers that we shared in the beginning, 40 to 60% of our deals are being lost to no decision.
5
SPEAKER_02
What, 50 some percent of those are because of indecision.
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SPEAKER_02
Just plan that it s gonna present itself in your deal.
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SPEAKER_02
Don t hope for the opposite.
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SPEAKER_01
Amazing.
5
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So to recap what I learned from this one.
5
SPEAKER_01
One, similar to what we talked about with the O, we should under-promise and then end up over-delivering.
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SPEAKER_01
If we say, hey, I know you saw that case study, but I actually think we should build a business case off of less aggressive results that builds trust, that builds credibility, and it makes the customer feel safer.
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SPEAKER_01
The other thing is we should be bringing our team in, or we should be explaining how we go from closed one deal to the customer seeing success with our solution.
5
SPEAKER_01
When they have a clear path around, hey, here s how I m going to get to the outcome I want, not just to the signature.
5
SPEAKER_01
And this is where stuff like mutual action plans can be really, really helpful.
5
SPEAKER_01
That helps mitigate risk for the customer.
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SPEAKER_01
And then other stuff, if we can start with a POC, if we can give them an out clause.
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SPEAKER_01
And folks, I m going to give you an out clause in a second so you can all get to your next meeting on time.
5
SPEAKER_01
But first, thank you, Matt.
5
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Thank you, Jen.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I ve got a special offer for folks.
5
SPEAKER_01
If you re losing deals because of indecision, it can be helpful to have a really, really fat pipeline to make up for some of those deals that just, we can t get unstuck.
5
SPEAKER_01
And if you didn t know, 30 Minutes to Presidents Club is releasing the book on cold calling this summer.
5
SPEAKER_01
And if you d like to get early access to that book, we have the introduction ready to give away for free, and we will be giving it to anyone who writes the word book in the chat.
5
SPEAKER_01
So if you d like that book, write the word book, we will send it to you.
5
SPEAKER_01
And be on the lookout for
5
SPEAKER_01
Next session from 30 minutes to President s Club we ve got Armand Farouk and Katie Kevin Dorsey who are going to be teaching
6
SPEAKER_01
This one is designed for sales leaders.
6
SPEAKER_01
We re going to be teaching you how to run an extremely effective and productive pipeline review, how to tear up 20 deals in 60 minutes.
6
SPEAKER_01
So register for that one.
6
SPEAKER_01
We ll send out the info after the fact.
6
SPEAKER_01
Matt, Jen, thank you both.
6
SPEAKER_01
Where can folks learn more about you?
6
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No, Jen, after you.
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Mine s easy.
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LinkedIn, I spend all my time on that.
6
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And then DemandJen.com, Jen with a J, to learn more about what I do.
6
SPEAKER_02
So also LinkedIn.
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SPEAKER_02
So tell me you heard me on 30 Minutes Presidents Club.
6
SPEAKER_02
Love to be connected with you.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I m also on LinkedIn, but it doesn t look like I m on LinkedIn because I don t have the...
6
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the content and the engagement.
6
SPEAKER_02
I live vicariously through Jen Allen.
6
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So here s one thing I would suggest.
6
SPEAKER_02
If you want to learn more about Jolt Effect, check out jolteffect.com.
6
SPEAKER_02
There s a bunch of free resources on there and tools that you can go download, things you can check out.
6
SPEAKER_02
There s an online course, all kinds of learning options if you want to learn more.
6
SPEAKER_01
Amazing.
6
SPEAKER_01
Thanks, folks.
6
SPEAKER_01
All right.
6
SPEAKER_01
Get to your next meeting.
6
SPEAKER_01
Go move some indecisive customers.
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We ll see you on the next one.