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This is the art of charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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Today we re talking with my friend Chris Gulliboe.
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He s a writer, traveler, and entrepreneur.
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He spent a decade visiting every country in the world, and now he s helping people find work they were born to do.
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I ll admit, I rolled my eyes a little when I heard born for this, but honestly, the book is solid.
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It gives a lot of action steps to finding work
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and working conditions that are ideal for you in terms of flexibility, accountability, collaboration.
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It s not just what you do, it s how you do it.
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We ve got a lot of action steps, practical exercises, and drills for you to find and inch your way towards the work that you were born to do.
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And with that, welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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I m here with my producer, Jason.
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Hey, hey, hey.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
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We may not have all the answers, but we definitely have all the questions.
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All right, let s talk to Chris Gullibeau.
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So tell us what you do in one sentence.
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I m a writer, traveler, and entrepreneur.
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There s an M dash here, so it s still one sentence.
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I spent maybe 10 years visiting every country in the world, and my latest project is to help people find the work they were born to do.
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The reason that guys like you are standing out are because you re putting the work into the craft.
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Your book is many times, in many ways, largely geared possibly towards millennials and also people that are sick of their job, millennial or not.
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I m interested in people who want to change their lives, right?
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And people can do that in different phases of their life and career and all that kind of stuff.
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So I think really young people don t necessarily take to it because they haven t lost anything yet.
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You know what I mean?
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Like really young people like still believe in a bright future.
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It s only when you kind of get dissatisfied, like my market is dissatisfied basically.
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I like that.
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Let s talk about the dissatisfied.
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And this is kind of a tall order, right?
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Because when I got your book, Born for This, Find the Work You Were Born to Do, the first thing my ego did was roll its proverbial eyes.
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And I think you re probably used to that because the idea that, oh, you re born to do something, is kind of alien to a lot of people.
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I think a lot of people think, well, I m supposed to be doing this, and for me, my own personal path, the only one I can really speak to from experience, I had no friggin  clue what I was doing, and sometimes I m like, I still don t, I m along for the ride here.
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I think it can be alienating, and it can also be kind of interesting.
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It can be provocative.
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I don t actually think that everybody is supposed to know what they re born to do, or supposed to know their life purpose when they re 20 or 25, or even when they re 40.
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I do think though, when you look at people who are really successful, and by successful, I don t just mean rich or famous or high status, but people who are kind of living this purposeful life, like we can look at them from the outside and we re like, yeah, you know, not only they re happy, but they ve actually kind of found this thing that
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It s really using their unique skills.
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I think we can say, OK, they are actually doing something that they were meant to do or born to do.
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And I m not really interested in the semantics of like, is it destiny?
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Is it fate?
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Do they make choice, et cetera?
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But I think we can identify this thing that where people come alive.
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Right.
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And so that s what it s about for me.
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It s helping people find that sweet spot, however you want to think of it.
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Yeah, I like the way that you define it, because of course, when you read books about getting into the right niche or getting into the right line of work, usually it s only a matter of time before it devolves into some sort of weird flowery language that means jack shit.
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You know what I mean?
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Yeah.
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And you did not do that, which I thought was awesome.
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I didn t expect you to, but I also didn t have high hopes for anybody to be able to really nail this one, and I feel like you did.
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because you narrowed it down to joy, money, and flow, and there wasn t this whole like, well, once you really enjoy something, the money doesn t matter anymore, because that s plainly not true.
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It s a nice thought that you can feed your kids on the fact that you love your job, but it s just not the case.
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First of all, I agree with the initial premise of the book.
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Everyone s lifespan is essentially short.
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We want to learn something, we want to do something.
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How did you come to this path of joy, money, and flow?
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I mean, were you ever kind of in the dead-end job circuit?
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It doesn t seem like that s very much something you ve suffered from in the past.
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No, me personally, I haven t suffered from the dead-end job circuit, and that s because I was a terrible employee.
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I wasn t good at working for anybody else.
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My first job, I was age 14 and I was a dishwasher.
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And like when a pot or a pan would come back and it was really dirty, I would take it outside and throw it away in the dumpster.
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That s probably not how you re supposed to do that.
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How long did it take?
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Well, how long did it last?
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Yeah, it was, uh, it was great for a week.
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And then after a week, they kind of started running out of pots and pans, you know, and they re like, what the hell s going on?
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So of course I was fired from that.
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And then I was fired from another few random jobs and I kind of had to find my way.
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You know, I had to find my way through self-employment and entrepreneurship.
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So.
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You know, my struggle wasn t let me escape the corporate job that sucks.
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My struggle was kind of like, how can I build something for myself or create something for myself?
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In the beginning, it wasn t very high-minded.
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In the beginning, it wasn t like, I want to change the world.
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I want to empower entrepreneurs or artists.
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It was nothing like that.
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In the beginning, it was just like, well, I don t want to be a dishwasher.
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I don t want to work for someone else.
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So over time, I traveled a lot.
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I lived in West Africa.
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I started this quest to visit every country in the world.
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Eight years ago, I started a blog that turned into books.
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So it was definitely a process.
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It was not a linear journey.
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As for the Joy Money Flow thing, that comes out of extensive research that I do.
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And I appreciate you saying that the book is, for the most part, bullshit-free.
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Hopefully, it s at least 99% bullshit-free.
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I don t know if I m ever at 100%.
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But I don t want to just recite platitudes or say, here s how to
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Change your life or here s how to like be inspired or something.
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Like I m not really a follow your passion kind of guy I do think you know, as you said life is short So we should find a way to do something that we enjoy but it should also be financially viable It should also be something that uses our skills or we can kind of point to it and say, okay You know, I made that or I did that and that actually was easy for me and it was hard for other people so that s kind of where that model comes from and just observing that I
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A lot of the people that I talked to, whether they were famous people or just kind of ordinary people who had found this life of purpose, they did kind of come to this intersection of all three of those qualities, joy, money, and flow.
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I identify a lot with this as well, right?
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Of course, I really enjoy most of what I do here at the Art of Charm.
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It happens to now pay well, which is really cool, because for a long time, it was awful.
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Early in the game, I was living in Manhattan making 24 grand a year, which I think is slightly less than somebody who takes tickets at a movie theater anywhere in America, probably.
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that was a stressful thing, but I had the joy and the flow thing kind of going.
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And now when I do the show, it s pure flow, right?
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This is the kind of thing where I m like, wow, I wish I could do these all the time.
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And then the reality sets in.
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Is it safe to say you can t have these things 100% of the time, but you should shoot for a respectable sort of A minus number when it comes to this?
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I think it s a journey.
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I think it s a process.
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I think we all kind of fall behind.
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We all kind of get in situations where we keep doing things, you know, the same way, not necessarily because it s,
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the most amazing thing, but it s because of what we ve done before.
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But I mean, again, like you have found that sweet spot, and you have done it through this repeated practice.
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And now you ve done it what 400 times or 500 times, there s probably other stuff that you recorded that isn t even out in addition to all your other stuff.
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So you had this inkling of where it was going.
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And maybe it wasn t
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you know, lucrative in the beginning, but at least it was sustainable at a low level, essentially, like even the 24 grand in Manhattan.
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It s not great, but you made that yourself.
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You could point to it and be like, I did that.
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That is fun.
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Like that is empowering.
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And it does give you confidence to say, okay, I m going to keep building.
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And like, you know, we re going to turn this into something big and, you know, maybe it wouldn t have happened.
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And if it didn t work out, you would have done something else that was, you know, also big and important.
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I think that was it.
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Like you re not a hundred percent always in the joy money flow or whatever you want to call it, but.
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It is this thing where we re working toward it, and we can identify when we re in it.
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Why joy?
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I understand that it s important to be happy, because I know a lot of people that have their lives mostly together.
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They don t love their job, but are we asking too much?
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Well, I would say what is the goal?
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What are we trying to work toward?
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And everybody who s listening,
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to this, like they ve already kind of identified themselves as being interested in self-improvement one way or another.
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The reason they listen to the show, I mean, of course, it s entertaining, it s interesting, but they actually want to get something out of it.
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And so if you re talking about, can you settle in life?
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Can you make compromises?
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Of course, people do it all the time.
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And maybe there is a season, you know, where like you work at a job that sucks because you need more money or something.
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Like after I got fired from the dishwasher job, I delivered pizza for a while, you know, and that wasn t like the greatest thing ever in my life, but it was fine for a season.
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However, I think like if we re talking about, okay, if we are trying to create work, if it s not just, you know, something that I do as a means to an end, this is a third of our lives, right?
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A third of our lives essentially are spent at work.
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So why not try to find something that is not just like following our passion, but it is something that makes us happy.
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It is something we take joy in because when we take joy in it, we also take pride in it.
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We re going to do a better job.
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We re probably going to be more successful at it.
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You know, we re probably going to end up making more money, whether we re working for somebody else or working on our own.
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So to me, it s like, yeah, there s a journey we might have to settle, you might have to compromise, but is that really the goal?
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The goal is like three out of three, not just two out of three.
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I can understand this.
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I find it s gotta be very hard to truly be happy if you don t enjoy, for the most part,
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what s going to end up being the majority of your time.
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We all have to do stuff that we don t like.
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Like you probably have some paperwork.
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You probably have some degree of bullshit in your job.
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But again, like it s about percentages and it s about like at the end of the day, can you look back and be like, you know what?
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Like that was a good day.
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I d made some progress on my goals.
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You know, I did work that I believed in.
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That to me is what it s all about.
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There s one quote in the book here that says, if you re not sure that your current work sparks joy, it probably doesn t.
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When I read that, I thought, well, that s such a statement of the obvious, but then I realized, okay, whenever I ask people whether or not they enjoy their job, much of the time, there s some hesitation, like, yeah, you know, parts of it are rewarding, and I m thinking, that s not really a ringing endorsement of XYZ profession.
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So maybe some of those people, they haven t actually had a job, or they haven t had work that they really do enjoy.
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Once you have it, then it s very hard to go back.
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It s like once you have this taste of freedom and independence, those were the primary values for me.
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As an entrepreneur, being self-employed, other people may not have those same values.
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Maybe they value contribution, maybe they value working as a team, but whatever motivates you, once you have that, then you know.
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Then you ll be able to look back at when you re doing some other situation, do I have joy in my work?
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Well, yes or no, because I had it at that one time.
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Tell me about the working conditions argument.
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I mean, you re right.
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A lot of people, when they think about, okay, what career do I want, they re thinking as far as the job title and maybe the salary and that s it.
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Yeah.
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So this was really interesting.
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I mean, I was surprised by this myself.
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When people are six years old, they re thinking about like, what am I going to do when I grow up?
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or when they re like 16 or 18, going to go to college or university, what am I going to study?
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Or when they re 60, making a career change, they think about exactly what you said, the profession, the vocation, I m going to be a designer, I m going to be a firefighter, I m going to be an engineer, an accountant, whatever.
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And what I saw was just as important is what you mentioned, working conditions.
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So working conditions are things like how you like to spend your time, how you do your best work, the percentage of time you like to work with others versus working on your own.
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because most of us need some of both, but the range is tremendous.
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How you like to be rewarded or compensated or incentivized, all this kind of stuff.
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And if you can start to understand like what your ideal working conditions are, I think that s just as important as understanding what your occupation is.
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And that relates a lot to happiness.
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And you can begin making changes in your working conditions, even if you can t change the content or the specific job right away.
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You mentioned specific conditions in the book as well, like flexibility, accountability, sense of contribution, which you had mentioned earlier, collaboration, which you mentioned earlier, deliverables, security, which I ll focus on in a little bit, and intangible benefits.
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And I think these are very specific.
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Again, I was pleasantly surprised to see those in there.
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Because you write, you can t just find the best possible work, you also have to find or create the working conditions that best suit your personality and preferences.
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These are often overlooked, and you ve got an exercise here to sort of rank these things by priority to find out what those preferences are.
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Right, because it s gonna be unique for each person.
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You know, this is something that very much is personality-based.
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based on your own experience and how you do the best work, as you said.
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And so the key point is you won t actually be happy unless you have the right blend of both the kind of work that you re doing and the way that you do it.
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So if you re doing something that you believe in, like it is a good job or whatever, but the working conditions suck, like you have a conflict with your colleague and it stresses you out, or you have a boss that s always negative, or the time schedule doesn t work for you or your family or whatever, then you re going to be stressed out.
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Or you could have like really good conditions.
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You could be working for like a tech startup, for example, and like, you know, all three of your meals are free and they have all these benefits.
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And it s just this great thing, but you don t actually believe in what you re doing.
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Then you re going to be unfulfilled.
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So if you don t want to be stressed, we don t want to be unfulfilled.
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The whole goal is like the right work and doing it the right way, the right job, the right working conditions.
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Tell me about flow, because this is something we ve talked about a lot on the show with like Steven Kotler and books by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, those kind of crazy like deep flow state, meditative almost types of things.
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Why is flow important and how do we know we re headed in that direction?
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Yeah, I mean it can be this deep thing or you can think about it really simply.
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The way I think about it is flow is the kind of work that we do that s very natural for us.
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Each of us has probably a lot of different things that we do in our job.
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We do things that come really easy, some things that are really difficult, some things we like, some things we don t, et cetera.
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So flow is the kind of work where you can get lost in, where you can spend hours and you don t realize that the time has gone by.
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Or it s the kind of thing where you do it really well and other people struggle with it.
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You know, if you re trying to figure out, okay, what kind of work is this for me?
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Sometimes what helps is if you do any group work and there s a meeting and they re like, okay, we got this task for somebody and this task for somebody, you know, the group looks at you and they re like, Jordan, you know, here s the task for you.
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You give this task to Jordan because he s going to do a great job with it.
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It s almost like the group is identifying like, here s where, you know, he or she finds flow.
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Here s where he or she like uses their skills.
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you know, to the best possible benefit.
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And so the reason why it s important is because you could be happy in your work, you could have money, but really like using your skills in a unique way, that leads much more to purpose.
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And again, if we think about people who found the work they were born to do, like whether you like that phrase or not, you can kind of point to them and say, okay, it s not just that they re happy and they have money.
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They re actually doing something really interesting.
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They re doing something that does relate to their unique skill sets.
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And not everybody can do that.
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I think that s interesting.
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That s your strong competitive advantage.
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If you re able to get that whole flow state going, doing an element of work, you re already probably by definition better at that than the vast majority of people, meaning this is a quote-unquote natural strength of yours, whether you ve developed it or not over the last decade, of course.
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So while we re doing this work, do we spend the majority of our time in flow, or is this like, what sort of percentage of the equation are we looking at here?
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Yeah, I guess it depends on who we re talking about.
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I use some examples of famous people like Roger Federer or something, you know, Roger Federer, he could have done a lot of different things in his life.
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He could have been a Swiss watchmaker, right?
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He could have been an accountant.
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But you know, thankfully, you know, he didn t he kind of
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found a way to master this craft and be the best in the world.
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So obviously, like when he s playing tennis, you know, most of the time, unless he s having a really bad day or something, I would say that s flow.
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He does a lot more than just play tennis, right?
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There s a whole business, there s a whole infrastructure, there s the training, there s all the travel, there s all of that.
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So it s hard to know the specific percentage.
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To me, it s more about the focus.
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It s like, what is the outcome?
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Why do we do the work?
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What are we building?
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What is the deliverable?
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You know, what s the product?
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Like, how are people s lives going to be affected?
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And to me, that s what I kind of think about when I think about how do I want to get more flow in my life.
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You know, I think it s a very important decision when you re looking at a profession, and to that angle, to that end, it s funny, because whenever I talk to, say, professional athletes or something like that, or a super high performer, I often think, okay, when I was playing high school football or something, what did I hate?
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I hated practice.
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You know, it s cold, you re running, and I thought maybe,
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I m obviously just not cut out for this sport because I hate practice.
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I ask these professional athletes, like these guys make millions and millions of dollars doing something that they quote-unquote love, that they were definitely born to do, and I ask them, so what do you think of practice?
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And they re, oh, it sucks, it s the worst, I hate it.
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A lot of them are like, I hate the training element of what they re doing because at some level, yeah, maybe it s fun to run routes and catch passes
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for a few hours every single day, but what really sucks is running sprints in the snow.
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SPEAKER_01
Like, no matter who you are, you probably hate that, right?
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There s some people that don t.
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Of course, those people who run like Spartan races and kind of get off on that whole thing, you know?
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But most of those people are just normal.
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They just happen to push through that stuff to get good at what they know is going to be their sort of Friday night lights, literally or figuratively.
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When you re discussing this in the book, we want to constantly be optimizing our work life so we spend more time in flow.
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At least that s what I read between the lines.
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Would you agree with that?
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SPEAKER_00
I would agree with that.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think the observation you just made, those professional athletes who hate practice, but yet somehow they re still able to do it.
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Somehow they are still able to spend hours and hours on practice and probably a lot more hours on practice and drills and training and preparation and reviewing tapes and all that than they ever spend playing.
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I would say that they re outcome focused.
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They actually recognize this as an important prerequisite to get to whatever it is that they desire, whether it is that Friday Night Light thing or traveling the world and playing in the US Open or the Australia Open.
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SPEAKER_00
And I wonder if they really hate all of it.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe they do, but it seems like that s a lot of time to spend saying that this sucks.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe part of it sucks, but part of it is just kind of like, well, I go and do that because I believe in the greater thing that s gonna come about later.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s hard to say.
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I mean, I think when they re thinking of
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practice sucks they re probably thinking when they have to run the wind sprints during the off season to stench that s probably awful but i think yeah suiting up and going into the stadium a running routes because you re about to go up against a big rival i would assume there s an adrenaline factor that that you can ignore
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For example, in my own case, most people who listen to the show are actually surprised to hear that I don t love reading.
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In fact, I kind of disliked it for a really long time, and I read maybe one or two books every single week, and the reason is because I know it s going to make the show that much better, not because I just can t get enough books.
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especially in the same genre, day in and day out, all the same, you know, many of the points overlapping.
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Like, very often, I ll read something where I m just like, oh my gosh, this was not something I wanted to even finish, and I ll do it, and the show will be great, and it s all worth it.
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That s the wind s prince for me, but it takes on a whole different meaning when I m looking at it in context, rather than when I m looking at that as sort of an end into itself, and I think,
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That s extremely important for people building career capital, and you argue in the book that all big career decisions should get us closer to this trifecta of joy, money, and flow.
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Yeah, so basically, you re making an investment, you re making this small investment, reading one book or two weeks books a week, because it s going to get you closer to that goal of greater flow, greater outcome, greater product, greater podcast in the same way that the athlete does the wind sprint, right.
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SPEAKER_00
So I think you ve connected to a vision, if it was this isolationist thing, then there wouldn t be any reason for it.
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You know, if you re just reading the same book all the time, or the same points, then you should do something different.
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SPEAKER_00
Right?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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You know, when I think about the decisions, it s big decisions and small decisions, both like when we think about
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the work we re meant to do or whatever that journey that we re on.
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It s not just how am I going to change my career, how am I going to quit my job tomorrow and start a business or whatever the goal is.
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It s part big decisions and then part optimization, part tweaks.
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What can I do tomorrow to have a better day than I did today and how can I change some of my working conditions to get more aligned with how I do my best work.
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Now, counterintuitively, you argue in the book, giving up is a viable strategy that is too often ignored, and this is great because this is some real talk right here.
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Everyone s like, try again, you miss 100% of the shots you don t take.
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SPEAKER_01
Tell me why you hate that so much, or why you dislike that.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, I hate it because it s terrible advice.
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I hate it because it s not helpful for people, and most successful people in life have given up on a lot of stuff.
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Most successful people in life are not successful because they identified this one goal,
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and then just kind of charged ahead and pushed everything out to the outside or something, they actually like moved forward.
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And then they encountered obstacles.
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And sometimes they went back, they went back to a fork in the road, and they took the other path.
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SPEAKER_00
And, you know, I talked to a lot of people who started businesses, and they ve had very successful businesses.
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SPEAKER_00
And I say, Did you have any other businesses?
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And, you know, if it s very common for someone to say, Oh, my first business failed, I worked on it for three years.
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SPEAKER_00
If you had gone to that person in year three of their first business, and your advice was, hey, just keep going, like never give up, you know, be persistent, because persistence is the quality of success, that would have been terrible for them.
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SPEAKER_00
Right, the best thing for them to do was to shut that business down and go on to something else.
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SPEAKER_00
And
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You miss 100% of the shots you don t take.
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SPEAKER_00
The whole problem with that, which is a great quote, you know, you put it on Instagram, you get a lot of likes.
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SPEAKER_00
The whole problem is you don t get unlimited shots, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Especially in the athletic metaphor, you don t actually get an unlimited number of times to try something.
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SPEAKER_00
And even if you did, why would you keep trying the same way?
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So to me, like the greatest lesson is yes, don t give up on your life vision, like always keep trying, but don t keep trying the same thing, mix it up.
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SPEAKER_00
Most successful people have tried a lot of different stuff.
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SPEAKER_00
Not all of it has worked.
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That s okay.
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They regroup, they move forward.
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SPEAKER_01
How do we know when to give up?
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I think here s an easy thing you can do.
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You ask yourself two questions.
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SPEAKER_00
Is it working?
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SPEAKER_00
Do I still like it?
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SPEAKER_00
Okay, and so then you have a little matrix of the answers.
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If it s working and you still like it, easy enough, you keep doing it.
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If it s not working, you don t like it, easy enough, you quit.
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SPEAKER_00
So it s only complicated when the answers are in conflict.
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If it s not working,
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SPEAKER_00
but you still like it.
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The question is, okay, can it work?
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Is it just the case where I m in Manhattan, I m making $24,000 a year.
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SPEAKER_00
So in some ways it s not working.
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SPEAKER_00
Look at this vision.
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Like I still like what I m doing.
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I believe that I m building something here.
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It could get to something so much bigger.
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So I m going to keep going.
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SPEAKER_00
Or if it s the opposite thing where like it s actually working pretty well, but
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SPEAKER_00
you know, I m kind of tired of it.
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SPEAKER_00
Like I want to do something different.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe it s a question of I just need to move on.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe if it s a business, I need to find a way to sell it.
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SPEAKER_00
If it s a good job, that s okay.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe I need to leave it.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, sometimes the best time to leave a good job is right before you get sick of it.
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SPEAKER_00
So I think there s your answer.
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SPEAKER_00
Basically, if it s going well, you keep doing it.
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SPEAKER_00
If it s not, you stop.
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SPEAKER_00
If it s in conflict, you have to kind of look at a little bit more detail.
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SPEAKER_01
Sure, yeah, in the book, quitters never win is a lie.
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SPEAKER_01
Sometimes you just need a new game to play, right?
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SPEAKER_01
And one key bit of wisdom that I liked was when the stakes are low, you can make changes or give up quickly.
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SPEAKER_01
Can you discuss that a little?
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SPEAKER_01
Because I thought that was kind of insightful.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, yeah, when the stakes are low, you ve got an entirely different set of options.
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SPEAKER_00
Right.
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SPEAKER_00
I generally don t encourage people to quit their job right away.
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SPEAKER_00
Like people who hate their job, the soul sucking job.
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SPEAKER_00
I want to quit it.
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SPEAKER_00
I want to do something else.
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SPEAKER_00
I m not generally like a quit your job and jump off into the wilderness kind of guy, but the decision there is very different if you re 20 years old, single, no responsibilities, or if you re 35 or 40 and you ve got a family.
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SPEAKER_00
We ve got some debts, all these different things, responsibilities and obligations.
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SPEAKER_00
If you re 20 years old, the stakes are pretty low.
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SPEAKER_00
If the job sucks, why don t you just quit?
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SPEAKER_00
You ll be okay.
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You ll figure something out.
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You re not going to screw up the rest of your life if your first job out of college turns out to be a disaster.
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SPEAKER_00
But then if you re older, stakes are higher.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe I need to build a plan.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe I need to actually create a side business and then go off into that.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe I need to find a way to get promoted or change companies or change industries or something like that.
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SPEAKER_00
And then the same is true with any kind of career investment or any kind of side hustle that you re starting.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, I wrote a book before called the hundred dollar startup, which was all about helping people start businesses without spending a lot of money, without going into debts, without going to business school, without writing an 80 page business plan that nobody ever reads.
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SPEAKER_00
You know, to me, it s like, if the stakes are low and the risk is low, then if it doesn t work out, no problem.
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SPEAKER_00
You re going to try something else.
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SPEAKER_00
It s only when you re invested.
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SPEAKER_00
I ve spent a year on this thing and I spent a lot of money and it s not working.
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SPEAKER_00
it s still probably the best decision to walk away, but it s a lot harder to walk away because you feel like I ve already put all this into it, therefore it should count for something even if it doesn t.
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SPEAKER_00
So it gets psychologically more difficult in addition to the financial consequences.
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SPEAKER_01
Right.
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SPEAKER_01
There s some cost fallacy and everything involved with that.
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SPEAKER_01
And of course that might be one of the reasons why more people don t pursue a life of freedom slash independence.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they don t know how, but also the perceived risk is so much higher.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, I like how you said perceived risk, you know, sometimes it is legitimate risk and sometimes it is just,
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SPEAKER_00
I don t know what that life looks like, but it s got to be very difficult.
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SPEAKER_00
It s got to be risky.
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SPEAKER_00
There s got to be a high chance of failure, et cetera.
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SPEAKER_00
And so the more you can kind of dip your toe in the water, you realize like maybe it s not actually that risky.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe it is actually the safest choice for me to go out on my own, or it is the safest choice for me to take what I thought was this huge risk.
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SPEAKER_01
Right, in the book you discuss the method of identifying the hazards, listing them out with sort of these sometimes worst case consequences, and you start to see through that process why it s unlikely to happen and frankly manageable much of the time if they do happen.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, just as most successful people don t follow this linear path, most successful people also make a lot of mistakes.
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SPEAKER_00
It s not just about giving up, they actually make mistakes and the mistakes can inform our future decisions.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because when we make a lot of these decisions, especially at an early age, we don t have all the information.
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SPEAKER_00
It s like you have to choose what you re going to study in college, it goes to this career, but you don t really know what that s like, like maybe you took a skills test.
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SPEAKER_00
And your guidance counselor said, you know, you would be good in this field or something, but you don t really know what the working conditions are like, like we discussed.
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SPEAKER_00
You don t even know what that field is like.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe you discover something else totally later.
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SPEAKER_00
So the way that you come to that is by experimenting and experimentation always involves mistakes.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
Where do you stand with the backup plan thing?
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SPEAKER_01
Because, you know, some of the more sort of inspirational type of people are like, oh, you don t need one, because if you ve got a plan A and a plan B, you re always going to fall back to plan B. People listening know where I stand on that, of course, a little bit more rational, and it sounds like you and I agree on this.
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SPEAKER_01
I would love to hear what you think
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of the quote unquote backup plans?
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think it s kind of like the you miss 100% of the shots you don t take, like it sounds good, but then you start to decode it or deconstruct it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you re like, really, is that really the best case?
3
SPEAKER_00
So I probably used to say some of those things too, about like, screw the backup plan, like I m going to go all in with something, you know, but I actually think it s very wise to say, first of all, I am invested in this, I do believe in this project, or this process or whatever I m working toward, I believe in it.
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SPEAKER_00
But I m also going to say, you know, if it doesn t
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SPEAKER_00
go exactly as i hoped or even if it s a complete disaster i m gonna have a plan b and i m gonna have a plan c i m gonna have a plan d i m not gonna give up in the long term vision again i got this long term vision there is something that i have to do with my life i m gonna figure out what it is but if it takes me some time to get there that s okay i m gonna always have a bridge i m gonna always have a fallback plan and you don t have to tell anybody your fallback plan
3
SPEAKER_00
you don t have to make it public.
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SPEAKER_00
It can just be kind of like in your head or in your notes or like, I m going to go this far down this path.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if I get this far and I haven t seen the results that I want, then I m going to proceed to the next plan.
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SPEAKER_00
And if that doesn t work, I m going to proceed to the one after that.
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SPEAKER_00
So I m pro-backup plan.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, if plan A fails, you ve got 25 letters left, right, as you wrote in the book.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I like the idea
3
SPEAKER_01
that backup plans allow us to take on more risk, and I think that s the key that s actually overlooked by most people, because I totally get not wanting to have too many backup plans in place, and then you re focusing on those things, and then when the going gets tough, you re like, well, plan B sounds so much easier, kind of grass is greener on the other side of the fence, or maybe you re making a decision based on fear of missing out, there s all kinds of things like that,
3
SPEAKER_01
I like the idea that having a backup plan in place allows you to step just that much further out on that limb because if it breaks, you ve got something in mind that you can do.
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SPEAKER_01
You re not just thinking, geez, if I take all this risk and I fail, I m homeless or whatever.
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SPEAKER_00
So therefore, your chances of success may actually be greater because you re able to step further out on that ledge, ironically.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s super counterintuitive to think, well, if I m focused on maybe making sure these two areas are in place for me, that you would be more successful in one, because it s kind of like, well, you need to muster all your resources for your initial plan.
3
SPEAKER_01
Probably you won t be able to execute it to that level, to the extreme level that you might need to to succeed if you re actually worrying about
3
SPEAKER_01
what happens if you fail.
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SPEAKER_01
But if you have that plan B and it s actually solid enough to get you by, you can take more risk and you can play bigger.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we ve seen the rewards of that in the past as well.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, totally agree.
3
SPEAKER_00
So the backup plan is there in your pocket.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe it s not necessarily in front of you all the time.
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SPEAKER_00
You just know it s there because you re still committed to your vision.
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SPEAKER_00
You know, you re still committed.
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SPEAKER_00
But as you said, if it doesn t work out, you ve got something else.
3
SPEAKER_01
You bring this into the workplace as well, stating that a side hustle isn t just nice, it s actually a necessity now, because it brings disproportionate amounts of confidence and security.
3
SPEAKER_01
I would love to hear more about that, because again, counterintuitive to have a side hustle from your regular job thinking, this is gonna distract from my work performance, and actually it allows you to build more career capital and move towards that joy, money, flow trifecta.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s a couple of ways to look at this.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, one way people tend to focus on scarcity and say, well, it s a very difficult economy job market out there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like there s so little security and you could lose your position at any time, which is all true.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is totally true.
3
SPEAKER_00
And nobody will ever care about your career as much as you.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that s why I use this phrase, the self-employed employee.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, I think it s good to think of yourself.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
If I want to work for a company or an organization, no problem, but I m essentially leasing out my talents to them.
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SPEAKER_00
It doesn t mean I m not going to work hard for them.
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SPEAKER_00
I m going to do a good job.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m going to make sure that I earn my keep and hopefully like far more, but at the same time, I m also going to be building security and confidence for myself, you know, as you said, and this is the other perspective is okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s not just because it s an imperative.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s not just because the world is a scary place or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_00
When you start the side hustle.
3
SPEAKER_00
When you spend, you know, an hour a day, a couple of hours on the weekend, whatever it takes to create this additional income source, even if it s very small, even if it s not a lot of money, it is disproportionately rewarding and confidence boosting.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I hear all the time, I get emails from people, you know, who ve never been self-employed and they don t even necessarily want to become an entrepreneur, but they get their email in the morning of like, I got my PayPal notification.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, somebody sent me $50 and it s so exciting.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or I signed my first client.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, again, it s not the amount of money, it s the ability to earn
3
SPEAKER_00
income from more than one source, especially if you ve only been employed before and you ve never actually had any kind of business.
3
SPEAKER_00
The very first time that you began seeing money coming from somewhere else, it just feels great.
3
SPEAKER_00
It does give you more options.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s a natural backup plan.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if your side hustle ends up being very successful, that s great.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then you can choose.
3
SPEAKER_00
Do I want to invest in this more or do I want to continue with my job?
3
SPEAKER_00
And if it is in fact that you love your job, then that s great.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then you keep going to your job because you want to, not because you have to.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s a great place to be.
3
SPEAKER_01
It is a great place to be.
3
SPEAKER_01
Even Art of Charm started as a side hustle for both me and AJ and everybody else here, in fact.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just that when the economy hit a downturn, we were still doing well in my regular job.
3
SPEAKER_01
I wasn t working at some sort of fungible, commoditized role.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I was working at a top Wall Street position, and that s the one that actually shat the bed.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, and my side hustle at that point, it wasn t crushing it by any stretch.
3
SPEAKER_01
Again, I made 25 grand a year in Manhattan, but the fact is, I had lived below my means with my other career, which is great, because it gave me like a year plus of runway.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was able to then focus on Art of Charm, and I thought, okay, well, I can survive on this low pay for the first year, because I will literally not even take a dent in lifestyle, because of my savings, and then the next year after that, I ll take a dent in lifestyle, but I ll be able to survive, and that s with zero growth.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I was able to create that security.
3
SPEAKER_01
And when I left, I had five minutes of, what am I gonna do now?
3
SPEAKER_01
We re all gonna get laid off and I m gonna be screwed.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then I was like, eh, screw it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m just gonna focus on this and it ll be fine.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if it s not, I ll just go do something else.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I never had to.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it was, the only reason that I was able to have that security blanket was because of,
3
SPEAKER_01
having that quote-unquote side hustle, living below the means, and having the debt largely paid in advance.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that extra income can translate to lower debt, whether we re talking about student loans or the golden handcuffs of all the crap you bought to make yourself happy in a pre-existing career.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think it was Mark Cuban who mentioned before that debt limits freedom and it limits your options.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if you ve got that extra source of income, that debt s going away a lot faster, especially if you don t just use it to upgrade your lifestyle.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, I love that story.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s a great example of what we were talking about with the perceived risk.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you know, ironically or not, your side hustle was actually a safer, more conservative choice.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was a better asset than that Wall Street job in the long run, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So there s probably some people listening who do have a lot of debt.
3
SPEAKER_00
And when I think of them, you know, we talked about optimization and tweaking earlier, that s almost like the wrong answer for them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because if your life is kind of screwed up in some way, and like my life has been screwed up in different ways in the past, for sure.
3
SPEAKER_00
But if your life is screwed up, you have to take major action.
3
SPEAKER_00
You can t just tweak something.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so if you re $80,000 in debt or whatever the number is, a 4% raise in your day job is not going to help you with that.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
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Just as if your job sucks, if the working conditions suck, and then all of a sudden they re like, well, hey, every Monday is going to be Margarita Monday.
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It s not going to solve the problem.
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You have to take dramatic action if you re in that kind of situation.
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Speaking of taking dramatic action, it s almost dramatic slash incremental action.
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In the book you talk about improving the right type of skills, because a lot of people, especially I would say probably equal younger and older folks combined,
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we tend to focus on technical skills, or what you call hard skills, where it s like, oh, you know, I learned this type of computer program, and I ve got the Sigma Six certification.
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That stuff s great, but you argue that the soft skills are actually what bring about some of the larger changes across different career paths.
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So the hard skills are what gets you into the job, and the hard skills are kind of the prerequisite, that Six Sigma thing, that programming language you had to learn, those nursing qualifications, whatever it is,
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But the soft skills are what helps you stand out, basically.
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And soft skills are things that are not taught in college, usually, or even on the job.
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And there are things like communication, like follow up, like follow through, like being that person who actually gets things done.
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You know, we ve all been in these meetings where lots of good ideas kind of get batted around, but no one takes responsibility for them.
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And like the next week, you re back having the meeting again and talking about the same thing.
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So you can learn to be that person.
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who s actually kind of on the ball and following up and communicates well and negotiates well.
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I mean, negotiating is also a really important soft skill.
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If you can learn to negotiate for yourself in a way that also makes the other party look good, that s fantastic.
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So improving soft skills is actually more important than improving hard skills, I think, because there s always somebody else who can learn more programming languages than you.
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There s somebody else who s going to get another certification, especially in this global economy.
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Competing on hard skills is not the way to go.
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Those are the prerequisites.
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But to help you stand out, you have to master these other skills.
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Yes, and these are skills versus qualifications and I think one of the reason we focus on soft skills are pretty much exclusively at the art of charm is because Not only are these more important across careers and not only are they more generally applicable But yes, they are taught the least and further when people are younger in not just physically but younger in their career Especially those of us who are in our 20s and 30s still quote-unquote
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quote, young, the only way, often enough, that we can actually stand out in a work environment is through soft skills.
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If you re coming in first, second, third, fifth year out of college, you re probably not going to be the most skilled quality control engineer at the telecom company.
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That s very unlikely, almost impossible.
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However, you might be one of the best communicators and most well-liked.
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You might be one of the best, quote-unquote, natural leaders in the company.
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You might be somebody who can tie diverse groups of people and get them working together.
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Those types of skills turn out to be the only thing that can really net you that job, that coveted project or position when you re 30 or when you re 25 versus somebody who s like, look, I m 43.
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the telecom QA quadrant better than anybody in the industry, but that guy doesn t have those soft skills in place, that s the only thing that makes us competitive with somebody like that.
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That s a great point.
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That s fantastic.
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And I would just add that soft skills are more memorable as well.
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Like when you work with people, people are different.
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People are interviewing for something or competing with something.
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You re going to remember the person who has the better communication skills.
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You re going to remember the person who followed up better, the person who stood out.
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It s not going to be because they had more lines on their resume.
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It s not going to be because they were a better quality control engineer or whatever.
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Once you get in the pool, like you have to be qualified.
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You need those basic prerequisites.
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But then from there, like how are decisions made?
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and decisions are not usually made quantitatively.
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It s not like you re just ranked according to the technical abilities that you ve acquired through education or training.
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The decisions are gonna be made based on how you stand out, how you communicate.
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Yeah, very few people I know that hire say, wow, this guy has all A s on his transcript.
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We need this guy in here.
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That s a great point.
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You know, oh, is that the guy that picked his nose and wiped it on his sock?
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Yeah, but he has all A s.
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I mean, he s a smart cookie.
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Nobody wants that guy around.
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When I was helping hire,
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At the law firm, nobody ever said, man, look at the spreadsheet this guy sent in with his whatever s on it.
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That was really well done.
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I mean, we didn t even look at most of that stuff until after we met with the person and decided they were worthwhile.
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Where HR screens in like this bottom rung, acceptable grades, acceptable degree from an acceptable school, and then we meet them, and then we narrow it down after that.
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Yeah, you make your decisions when you meet them, basically, and afterwards, you re just kind of like background checking them.
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it s almost due diligence.
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Like, oh, let s make sure this person can actually spell.
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I mean, it s that kind of stuff.
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And even then, it s very forgivable.
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Oh, well, you know, we have people for that.
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You know, if we really like them and we think they re a real fit.
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And those are all soft skills.
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And many, many a person has lost a job because they came in and they just couldn t make that impression or somebody else just did a better job.
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So before we upgrade our skills, it seems like we should identify where our current skills are.
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And in the book, you have sort of an actionable item here, making a list of things that you do well.
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Can you guide us through that?
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I think that s important.
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I don t think many people actually ever take the time to do this.
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Yeah, so when you make a list of things you do well, I think it should be a very comprehensive list.
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And most of us, the very first things we re gonna think of are things that relate to our education, our training, maybe our initial job experience.
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And that s fine if you put those down.
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But then I think you should go a little bit deeper.
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And things should go well.
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Think about the questions your friends ask you.
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Like, what topics are you the authority in?
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When they come to you, like, what are they going to you for?
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Think about the jobs that you ve had.
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Like, where have you actually been the most helpful?
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Maybe it s something that had nothing to do with your training or your experience, but it was a totally different thing.
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And then you can ask people as well.
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Like we mentioned being in the group and the group is kind of like, Oh, Jordan should do this.
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Let s create a very comprehensive inventory of our skills because that s going to relate to a lot of different things.
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It s going to relate to what the best side hustle might be.
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It s going to relate to how we can stand out more in our jobs and become indispensable.
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Therefore, we re more valuable.
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We re going to stay there or go somewhere else.
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All that kind of stuff.
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I mean, the idea is like, here is me, you know, here s Chris, here s Jordan, here s whoever s listening.
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and these are all the different things I m good at, and it should be, like I said, a pretty long list, right?
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It shouldn t just be a few things.
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Yeah, I think when we re forced to kind of stretch and see what have I been good at, what are some things other people think I m good at, you can start to spot light shining through the cracks, if you will, because a lot of us are really hard on ourselves, and we think we re maybe only sort of good at something, or we can never get good at anything, and not everybody, of course, and others of us are probably delusional, and a reality check wouldn t hurt either.
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For sure.
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Well, then, then you look at the trends, you know, if you have like a five page, you know, single space list of all the things you do well, then maybe that you re too far on that other side, you know, I think most of us are more on the side of like, lacking confidence and not sure like, you know, what are true skills compared to anybody else or something, but then you kind of say, okay, what are the trends or the light that shines through?
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I like that phrase.
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What do these things have in common?
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Maybe there s a whole area here that I haven t realized.
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You know, maybe it is that I m really good at communication.
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I need to apply this communication skill in a technical way or something in a way that nobody else in my department or no one else in my industry is doing.
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Or maybe it s something entirely different, but hopefully there s some interesting information we can get from that.
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Yeah, I would say, look, if you re falling on the side of overly confident, that exercise might not be necessary because you re probably already taking a ton of risk.
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Right, which is great.
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Which is great, and then maybe life will put you in check, but that s okay.
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That s different problem, different solution.
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One thing that I did really enjoy and that was kind of confusing and counterintuitive was the idea of quitting your job slash school every year.
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Explain that to us, because it sounds a little bit reckless on its face.
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Yeah, well, it doesn t have to be reckless because you don t actually have to quit every year.
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I came up with this exercise partly for myself, because I do feel very fortunate.
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I have this great career.
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I write books.
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I have a wonderful community.
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I do work that I believe in.
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But I also want to be careful and make sure that I m not just doing the same thing year after year just because it s what I know to do.
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So I created this exercise.
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It s basically just kind of like a little prompt or a paragraph that you kind of can write or you keep in your Evernote or however you keep stuff on your calendar.
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And every year, you re like, okay, at the end of this year, whether it s a calendar year, or depending on when I start one year later, I m going to make a commitment that I m going to resign my job, or I m going to drop out of school, or I m going to quit whatever my main focus is, unless it turns out to be that that is, in fact, the best thing.
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And then when you do that exercise, you know, one of two things is going to happen.
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You re going to be like, Oh shit, I m doing the wrong thing.
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I need to make some changes.
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Or you re going to be able to say, you know what, I m actually like totally on track and maybe I need to tweak something, but this is actually great.
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And when that happens, then you don t have to doubt yourself.
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You don t have to worry.
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You don t have to say like, Oh, maybe the grass is greener somewhere else.
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It s going to help you to either be dissatisfied or satisfied.
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But the idea is that you ll know either way.
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So you resign your job every year, unless it is the best thing to keep going.
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Right, and then of course, if you do decide to leave, how do we start to choose between the multiple paths laid out in front of us?
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We have different options, and you argue expand and then limit them.
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I would love to hear more about that process.
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Yeah, so I came up with this theory because there s a lot of debate about saying yes to things, saying no to things.
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It s kind of like the inspirational advice about giving up.
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A lot of entrepreneurial advice is very much about filtering and saying no to lots of things and choosing a niche and being very specific.
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And I think that s great advice for people like Elon Musk, or let s not go so high, but that s great advice for someone who s already fulfilled and purposeful.
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And they ve been through lots of different things and they really have kind of found the work they were born to do.
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But if it s an earlier stage in your life and your career, and you are kind of experimenting and you re not sure like where everything is going, you know, there s a journey, but you re not all the way down it.
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I think it s actually much better to have less of a filter at that point.
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And to say yes to more opportunities, to say yes to more ideas, even if they don t work out.
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And by doing so, you re essentially creating more options for yourself.
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You are building that thing on the side while you re pursuing the traditional career.
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Maybe you re open to some different hobbies.
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You know, maybe you re actually trying to learn more things or expand your interests, both the soft skills and the hard skills.
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And then at a certain point, like once you latch on to, okay, here is my focus.
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Maybe it s not a super niche, but I ve actually found something that I m good at.
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I m going to go into this.
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Now I m going to start applying that filter.
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more strictly.
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I m going to start saying no to things.
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And there might be an option that comes up that s actually a good option.
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But I m going to say no to it because I already have enough options.
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I have enough opportunities.
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And my eyes are on the prize.
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That s what I m working on.
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But you don t shut off the options until you know which ones are the best for you.
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Right, and we can eliminate some options right off the bat that don t follow the joy-money-flow model.
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Exactly.
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Perfect.
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There s a lot more actionable stuff in the book as well for people who are kind of thinking, okay, I m ready to take the plunge.
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There s a lot of sort of side hustle information, writing the resume from the future, choosing career options that are more likely to make your future career a reality, etc.
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I don t have time to get into all that, but I want people to know that it s there.
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Is there anything that I haven t asked you that you want to make sure that you bring across?
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Obviously, we will link to the book in the show notes as well, but is there something that you just can t believe I haven t asked you yet?
4
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No, this has been a very comprehensive conversation, which is great.
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I m really glad we touched on
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the fact that most successful people do not follow a linear path.
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You don t have to feel burdened with pressure that you re supposed to know your life purpose and there is this thing that you re born to do and if you haven t found it by age 21, then you re a failure or a screw up and it s okay to give up on stuff and actually successful people do give up because then they find something better afterwards.
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So I think we ve touched on a lot.
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Perfect.
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Thank you so much, Chris.
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Really appreciate you coming in and repeating something you probably are
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of working on at this point, I would imagine.
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No, this is great.
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No, no, I really believe in it, and I hope it helps people.
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So thank you so much, Jordan, and thanks to the great audience for listening as well.
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Take care, Chris.
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Okay, take care.
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Bye-bye.
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Super interesting show with Chris.
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The dude is smart, what can I say?
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For a guy who used to throw his pens and pots away during his first job because he didn t even want to do the work, this is a guy who figured it out for a lot of us, and for himself especially.
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Joy, money, and flow, a really undeniable recipe for success, and I encourage all of you, if you re looking at a transition or you re not quite sure how to do it, the book is really action-oriented.
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It s not just,
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You can do it.
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There s a lot of action steps.
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In fact, there are so many we couldn t even get into just because of time constraints here on the show.
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So I hope you enjoyed that one with Chris Gullibo, and of course, you can thank him on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as the other resources mentioned on the show, including his book, of course.
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You can tap our album art and most mobile podcast players to see the cheat sheet for this episode, and we link to the show notes directly on your phone.
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I m also on Twitter, a lot of stuff that never makes it to the show, articles, insights, at The Art of Charm on Twitter, and you can find our amazing sponsors in the show notes or at theartofcharm.com slash advertisers.
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I also want to encourage you to join us in our social capital challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed.
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to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
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It s all about improving your networking and connection skills and inspiring those around you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you.
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We ll also email you our Fundamentals Toolbox that covers topics like body language, nonverbal communication, persuasion, business networking, public speaking, negotiation, and a whole lot more.
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I m also doing regular videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward every single week.
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It will make you a better networker.
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It will make you a better connector.
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That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed to 33444.
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This episode of the Art of Charm podcast was produced by Jason DeFilippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
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Show notes on the website are by Rob Fogerty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else either in person or shared on the web.
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Now stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.