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So if you tell yourself that you re just the type of person who doesn t like vegetables, well guess what, you re never gonna eat healthy.
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And it s probably not true.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re talking with Daria Rose.
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She s an author, blogger, and neuroscience PhD.
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We re going to be talking about the psychology of habits and habit formation, how to use your own psychology against yourself to make habits that stick,
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why traditional willpower-based habits like dieting don t work, and new mindsets surrounding habits that will help us create good ones more easily and break old patterns that no longer serve us.
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Don t be fooled, this is a habit and psychology episode dressed up as a health episode.
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I hope you enjoy it and learn from it.
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We re glad to have you with us here today at AOC, so enjoy this episode with Daria Rose.
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And by the way, if you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the AOC toolbox.
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That s where we discuss concepts like reading body language and nonverbal communication, the science of attraction, negotiation techniques, networking, mentorship, influence, persuasion tactics, and everything else that we teach here at The Art of Charm.
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In the US, just text charmed to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
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Everywhere else, go to theartofcharm.com.
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Also at theartofcharm.com slash podcast, you can find the full show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show.
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Here s Daria Rose.
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The reason I wanted to talk to you today is because, not only have you written a book on this subject, of course, but you re also a neuroscience PhD, and that s an unusual angle at which to come at the problem of health, psychology, weight loss, whatever, we re gonna be talking about healthy habits here.
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It seems unusual, and yet it s so, so appropriate.
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Usually when we hear from diet experts, their qualifications are, I work out a lot, or something like that, right?
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It seems very appropriate that you know how the brain works given that all of the mistakes that we re making with all the crap that we re eating and all the exercising that we re not doing generally comes from some sort of mindset.
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Is that the theory here?
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Absolutely right.
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And it s even more complex than that.
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Your brain is where all the decisions happen.
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And fundamentally, this is a behavioral problem.
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So if you re starving and you re low blood sugar, that s happening in your brain.
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That s going to cause you to make bad decisions.
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I wish I could say that this was a master plan of mine that I was going to like, I m going to solve.
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health with the brain.
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But it was sort of dumb luck that I was interested in neuroscience and happened to be studying neuroscience and also on the side was like suffering from dieting for my entire life and then found a solution that happened to integrate the two.
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You say suffering from dieting, and that couldn t be more appropriate.
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Well, first of all, I don t know many people that do diets and are healthy.
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I know people who have a specific diet that is healthy, but I don t know very many people who are doing dieting, to make it into a verb, that are actually achieving the results that they want, keeping the weight off, or just having habit change.
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And people are listening to this right now, and they re going, ugh, I don t need a dieting show.
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this is not really going to be a dieting show per se.
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We re going to talk about habit change here.
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At least that s the direction I want to steer it.
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But I d love to hear about what you mean by suffering through dieting, because I think a lot of people can probably relate to that.
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Yeah, dieting is the worst.
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It is the absolute worst.
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You re starving all the time.
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So you can t do anything really well because you re always distracted.
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You can t be social.
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You re like the weirdo at dinner.
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It s like,
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Like, oh, I ll have the steamed chicken breast and the broccoli with no butter.
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It ruins your life.
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Food is so pervasive that dieting is really a bummer.
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But on top of that, it also doesn t work at all.
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It actually backfires.
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We have really good data, really good science that explains that if you go on a diet, you re more likely to gain weight over the long term than to lose weight.
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So yeah, it s awful and it doesn t work.
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So it s pretty much the worst thing that was ever told.
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Right, we tend to bounce back, rebound, where I originally wasn t sure if that was the case, but now you re saying we have very good data that shows, look, when you do this, the weight comes back.
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And is that because of metabolism or what?
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What s the reasoning behind that?
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You know, that s a really good question and it s not entirely solved yet.
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So this is still being debated pretty widely in the media.
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There was recently a story about the biggest loser and how a huge majority of the people that like lost all this weight gained it back and their metabolism did get slower.
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So that s certainly a hypothesis that somehow
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Either a lot of weight loss or rapid weight loss or something messes with your metabolism.
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But there s also a huge amount of psychological data that people who have a history of restricting themselves with specific foods tend to overcompensate for that later.
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Like our brains were not wired to constantly make ourselves suffer.
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They do not like that at all.
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And when you do that to yourself, you end up creating all these horrible habits.
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Like people who diet are way more likely to go into binging.
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later and have all these super unhealthy relationships with food largely because of the way they have looked at and moralized and their mindset around food in general has become so out of whack with the way our brains healthily form habits.
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So it s, you know, there s probably a lot of factors going on there and we aren t sure, but I know that a lot of these things are at play and at least some of them, at least the psychological ones, we have some control over.
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Yeah, this makes sense, and frankly, from an evolutionary psychology perspective, or at least from a regular psychology perspective, survival perspective, it makes sense that if you starve yourself for three months, that the second you turn off the regulator, or the governor off,
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when you turn the governor off, your body says, hey, look, feast or famine, now it s time to feast, and so you do, and then your body goes, well, I better store all this stuff.
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So there s psychological components of things that are not unique, say, to human history where you...
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starve yourself for a while, not because you re on a diet, but because there s no stinking food, and then you binge when you can in order to store it.
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So it s probably both hormonal, metabolic, as well as just psychological.
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There s probably a lot of things at play here, and so it s no surprise that this hasn t all been figured out just yet.
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Especially the way that we look at dieting in the United States, especially, it makes a lot of sense.
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You mentioned pre-show that you re an overachiever.
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So you re a great student.
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Were you as good at dieting as well?
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I mean, were you one of those kids who s like, were you doing this at a young age?
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Because I know you did ballet and everything as well.
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Yeah, it s so obnoxious.
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I started dieting at the age of 11.
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And this was because of my mother.
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So I grew up in the 90s in Southern California in like the Baywatch era.
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This was not good.
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And my mom did every single diet under the sun.
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And I remember one morning, I was 11, I was in sixth grade, and I came into the kitchen and my mom was like blending something and it looked like a milkshake.
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And I was like, what s that?
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And she was like, oh, it s just this diet shake that s supposed to make me lose weight.
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And in my brain, I m like,
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That sounds like the best thing in the universe because I m picturing a delicious chocolate milkshake.
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And then she s telling me it can also like make you thin.
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And I was just at that age where like I knew that that was a thing you wanted to be as a woman.
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So I like got on SlimFast and my mother let me do this, which is awful, but she didn t know any better.
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And I said, yeah, I started dieting then essentially.
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That was when it started and it just went on.
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I ve done every one, like every single diet.
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I mean, I stopped about 10 years ago.
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So the new ones after that, I haven t done, but I ve done all of them.
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And yeah, I was awesome at them.
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I ate zero fat for the last two years of high school.
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I was so freaking skinny.
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It was awful.
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And so it works.
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Like I never got really overweight.
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I would yo-yo a lot, but I did this for 15 years.
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And at the end of it, it didn t feel like the end.
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It felt like,
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my personal private hell.
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But, you know, somewhere in the middle there, I was just like, wait a minute.
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Like at some point I started running marathons.
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Like I have like tons of willpower, tons of discipline.
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Yeah, I was getting straight A s.
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I m just like one of those like type A overachiever perfectionist girls.
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And it doesn t work.
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Like I was still miserable.
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No matter how skinny I was, I was still miserable.
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And there was no end in sight.
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There s no winning.
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You can t win.
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You re either miserable or you re skinny.
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Were your parents worried about you getting really thin?
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I mean, it seems like SoCal or not, if I m a dad, I m looking at my daughter, I d be like, hey, you know, have a sandwich.
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This is freaking me out here.
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Great question.
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Nobody s ever asked me that before.
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So this is really messed up.
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But like my mom was really proud of me.
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And she would tell everybody how great I looked.
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And I loved that.
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My dad was worried.
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My dad, actually, he was the only reason I would really eat.
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I would eat in front of him because I knew that he would worry about me.
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So like the food I ate was like basically to make my dad not worry about me.
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Yeah, he was worried about me.
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Did you replace food with some other bad habits?
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Because I know a lot of people who, they don t eat a lot, but they re like hoovering cocaine or whatever.
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I don t expect you to do that at age 11, but I know a lot of people that do really bad stuff instead of eating because your brain wants, it s gotta get those good feelings, right?
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You gotta do something to get the dopamine and your brain s dying for that and so they find other ways to do it.
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Smoking or whatever, there s all kinds of stuff that falls in.
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Yeah, I lived on coffee and cigarettes
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So this is in high school, which is totally disgusting.
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And yeah, I definitely dabbled in some diet pills in college and some later stuff.
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So yeah, not good.
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And this is one of the things that was one of my first big epiphanies.
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I was not focused on my own health at all.
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I thought I was invincible.
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You know, I didn t think anything really bad could happen to me.
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And so I didn t think I needed nutrition.
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I thought if I took a multivitamin, I could starve myself and be fine.
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And you know, my hair was really thin.
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My nails were brittle.
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I had a horrible skin.
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It was, it was awful.
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Right.
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You re basically malnourished at this point.
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How thin were you?
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Do you remember at all?
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When I think about this, it really freaks me out actually.
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And I m actually upset that nobody really sounded the alarm and got me talking to a doctor or something earlier, but I was the exact same height I am now.
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And I actually think that that s connected.
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I think that I stopped growing.
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I stopped growing when I was like 12 years old.
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And I think probably because I started dieting around then.
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So I m the exact same height now that I was in high school and I was 40 pounds lighter.
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Oh my God.
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Crazy, because I m skinny now.
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Right, you look like a normal human female right now.
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Because 40 pounds is, you know, when you lose 10 pounds people go, did you lose weight?
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You look great.
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So if you lost four times that much and you look normal right now,
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Yeah, I m not just normal right now.
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Most people consider me pretty tiny right now.
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Yeah, so I was like well under 100 pounds.
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It was not a healthy place to be.
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That s terrifying.
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In all honesty, I probably had some mild version of anorexia that was never diagnosed.
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The problem is you thought you were doing it right and people around you told you that you were.
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Well, that s what s super messed up.
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Yeah, I completely thought that this was the right thing to do.
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It s crazy that dieting is a game that you can t win.
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You mentioned this specifically, and it seems really unfortunate because good health is critical to happiness.
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It s critical to success.
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I mean, it s almost the goal of your life for the most part, right?
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I mean, we mentioned things like health and happiness.
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Ancient cultures have this in every well-wish
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from China all the way to Africa, they re talking about health and fertility and things like that.
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And these are the things that are affected by this.
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And yet still, even in 21st century America, and Europe for that matter, given all of the technology that we have, people are still not getting this right.
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Yeah, so that was one of the big epiphanies that happened for me.
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Like, you know, at some point, I realized that I don t know why I was so focused on being thin.
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I mean, obviously, like culture sort of makes that a thing that we should strive for.
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But at some point, I realized like I was so miserable.
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And I started a new approach and
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Basically, what happened was I was sick of it.
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I was totally sick of it.
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I thought I was doing it right.
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I was doing everything right.
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And I was still miserable.
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And I still wasn t happy with my body.
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And I really felt like it still wasn t working.
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So at this point, I d started my PhD program.
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And I was a neuroscience major.
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So I had taken a lot of biology classes.
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And I could read scientific papers.
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And that s a lot of training to get to that point.
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So I was like, you know what?
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I am going to figure this out.
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So I would spend my weekends just diving into the diet literature.
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And at that point, I was actually still trying to find the best diet.
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Like I thought it would maybe low carb, but I wasn t sure.
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I hadn t really had that much success on low carb either.
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I mean, for a while I did, but whatever.
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And I learned a couple of things.
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One is that diets don t work.
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That dieting is a better way to gain weight than to lose weight.
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And
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That was a big shock because that was frustrating.
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It made sense because that was my experience.
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But to actually read the science saying that was like kind of an eye opener.
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I was like, okay, well, the first rule of holes is when you re in one, stop digging.
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I was like, okay, well, maybe I should try a new approach.
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And then the second thing was that people just focus on real food and focus on lifelong habits.
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So I decided to try this as a experiment on myself, but with the goal of weight loss.
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But then once I started it, and I started actually eating food like a few times a day, which I hadn t been doing in years, and focusing on real foods that actually have flavor.
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I mean, because the difference between going to the farmer s market and buying in season produce and like going home and cooking it yourself and making something delicious,
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versus going to like the freezer aisle of Whole Foods and buying like frozen meals that are like low calorie is night and day.
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And so I had this experience where I was suddenly not hungry.
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I was suddenly not constantly like fighting with myself about wanting to like eat something less or eat different or eat something better.
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Like the food I was eating was amazing and I loved it.
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And not only did I not gain weight, which was my first fear, was that like if I start actually eating food, I m going to like gain weight because I hadn t been doing that in so long.
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Not only did I not gain weight, but I lost weight and I kept losing weight.
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And the more I ate and the more I focused on health,
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the more I was happy.
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Like once that change happened, like it was like my entire world priorities shifted because suddenly the weight loss just seemed like a bonus and I actually got to like face head on how miserable I really was chasing that sort of goal that I couldn t even reach.
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It seems like the science of psychology, of course, shows us that the critical factor in long-term success here will be the way that we think about this.
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Think about food, think about exercise, think about, I don t even want to say dieting because it s a totally different thing, creating a mindset for success when it comes to this.
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And this sort of habit change is a great topic to attack with food because so many people struggle with this.
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People have every excuse under the sun why they can t eat healthy or why they can t exercise.
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it seems like that is mostly just a veneer slash whipped cream on the turd sandwich that is an ineffective approach to creating healthy habits.
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Right, and that s exactly the thing.
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It s like what happened to me and what is necessary to happen if you want to have a long-term permanent change in your health is you have to switch what your goals are from something that you should do to something you want to do.
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because the way that psychology works in general, or the way that habit forming works in general, is in order for a habit to form, it has to create a loop, a habit loop.
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And the only way that happens is if there s a reward, right?
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And it can t be some like vague reward like,
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You know, you re going to save money to go on vacation or you re going to reach a number on a scale or some like unrelated future thing isn t good enough.
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It has to be a reward that s intrinsic to what you re doing.
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What do you mean by that?
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Because I m thinking a reward might be like I can fit into my high school jeans or whatever.
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That s what you hear about that all the time.
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You see it in copy on the Internet.
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Right.
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So the way that the popular mindset around dieting is, is you struggle, you sacrifice, you work hard, you restrict yourself, hit the gym, and one day you ll get this amazing thing.
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You ll have six pack abs, you ll fit into size zero, you ll weigh whatever.
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And that s sort of the model that we ve all sort of
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culturally decided to believe.
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But that is a willpower model.
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That is a restrictive model.
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And that is a model that is destined to fail because willpower, while super awesome for short-term goals, like if you only want to lose five pounds for a specific event, you could totally use willpower to do that.
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If you want to work really hard on a work project or study really hard and pass a test, willpower is great.
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And we tend to over-rely on it, though.
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Because for long-term projects, it inevitably fails.
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And the reason for that is because it s sort of like a muscle.
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It gets tired.
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And you ve probably experienced this.
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It s called ego depletion or decision fatigue.
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But the more decisions you make, the more willpower you exercise, the more you try to get something.
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By the end of the day, you re depleted.
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You re tired.
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You don t want to do that anymore.
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While we do have this sort of really awesome human resource of willpower, if you re relying on it long-term, and especially to torture yourself over something as important as food long-term, it s going to break down eventually.
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And what happens in those cases, like we were saying, you binge.
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It s called counter-regulatory eating.
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I love that the scientists often refer to it as the what-the-hell effect.
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You tend to overeat and sort of undo all the work you ve done and make it even worse.
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But the opposite of that, the opposite approach is a habit building approach.
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And habits are amazing because they re automatic things.
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You get triggered by something, you know, something reminds your brain, do this now.
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Then you go through sort of a mindless activity and then something about it is rewarding.
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And that s why it has to be about the act itself.
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So if there is a reward, then it ll reinforce the trigger and it ll become sort of an automatic loop in your brain that you sort of go through on autopilot.
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And your brain loves stuff like this because it doesn t have to think so hard.
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When you think about that, that s the way you want your brain to work for health.
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You want it to sort of be on autopilot and you don t want to have to be
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fighting with it all the time.
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And that means that you need to have intrinsic rewards in the things you eat and in the physical activities you do.
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And that basically means you have to enjoy it.
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It means that you have to like health.
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The healthy foods you eat, you have to enjoy.
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If you really hate broccoli, you shouldn t force yourself to eat broccoli, at least not at the beginning because that s not a winning strategy.
1
SPEAKER_01
And the same thing with exercise.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right, so this sort of fundamental flaw with many approaches that we see here is focusing on that willpower or restriction as you call it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Basically the no pain, no gain kind of mindset.
1
SPEAKER_00
The problem being that even though this makes sense at some level, you just get tired of it.
1
SPEAKER_00
So therefore it only works short term and the problem being that health is a long term goal
2
SPEAKER_00
not a short-term, I want to look good by next month because I m taking photos for my wedding type thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s a difference between having a healthy-ish appearance versus actually being healthy.
2
SPEAKER_00
So we can t rely on that willpower long-term.
2
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, and we tend to think that that s the way to go, and it s not.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s a losing strategy.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so habit forming would then be the longer term solution, and your argument here is that, which is hopefully science backed, is that willpower is maybe necessary to form a habit, especially at the beginning, but willpower s not necessary to execute a habit, per se, because a habit essentially kind of executes itself by default, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
We build that as a part of our default programming.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I wanna separate habits from exercising willpower every single day to repeat an action or to create a pattern.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that s the goal.
2
SPEAKER_01
And once you start seeing that as the goal, you can approach it entirely differently and it becomes sort of a fun game rather than this sort of self-flagellating exercise that we tend to all go through all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so in habits, you re saying only form in the presence of this intrinsic reward.
2
SPEAKER_00
So like, when I started running and hated it, I forced myself, I put my running gear on and then went outside, and then I gave myself permission to go back to sleep if I really wanted to, because it s early, it s freaking freezing in Michigan, I m gonna go run on snow and ice.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then after a while, I couldn t get out of bed and get ready and go run fast enough because I was,
2
SPEAKER_00
some sort of opiate addict, you know, my own endorphins here.
2
SPEAKER_00
Is that what you mean by intrinsic reward versus me saying if I just keep running every morning, eventually I ll have a six pack and find a nice girl and be happy?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
So if you talk to people, I call people who eat like mean foodists, that s what we are, but if you talk to any of the people who do have exercise habit, you know, people tend to think that people who go to the gym every day, they re just like a different breed or something.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like, no, no, no, no, no, not at all.
2
SPEAKER_01
These people have just, first, I mean, you have to get over the hump.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s sort of what we talked about, what you mentioned earlier of there is some sort of energy involved in setting up a habit in the first place.
2
SPEAKER_01
But once a habit gets formed, and it s running smoothly, people get addicted to these things in the good way.
2
SPEAKER_01
People who work out and like they can t function if they don t work out, you know, like they describe it as like, they re tired, they re groggy, they re cranky.
2
SPEAKER_01
Until they get their workout in, then they feel okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the same thing, like I ve had readers tell me that they crave salads, like when they travel or whatever to countries where maybe fresh vegetables aren t as easy to get, or maybe during the winter when they re harder to get.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you re craving salads and workouts, you ve won, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
That s where you want to be.
2
SPEAKER_00
No kidding.
2
SPEAKER_00
Habit building, really easy to explain, a little bit harder to do, unfortunately.
2
SPEAKER_00
There are a lot of little subtle psychological factors and roadblocks and things like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
You mentioned earlier that we need to stop moralizing food choices.
2
SPEAKER_00
What does that actually mean?
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t think I ve ever heard that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, this is one of my favorite topics.
2
SPEAKER_01
So this is actually something that comes directly from the cultural conditioning around the no pain, no gain willpower mentality of getting healthy, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Which is that, well, in order to get healthy, I should eat this, that, this, and this.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I shouldn t eat that, that, and that.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, these ones are good.
2
SPEAKER_01
Those ones are bad.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if I eat the good ones, then I m good.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if I eat the bad ones, then I m bad.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so there s this sort of moral component to doing what s right.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that idea can really crush people and can really form some like a belief structure in your brain that can make it really hard to make progress because you become sort of this all or nothing feast and famine sort of mentality.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s one of the problems that comes from that mindset.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s this idea that like some foods are innately good and some foods are innately bad.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right, like burgers and fries bad, salad with dressing on the side good.
2
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
People will do this with whole categories of food like carbs, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Or like fat or meat or whatever.
2
SPEAKER_01
And when you
2
SPEAKER_01
Moralize your food choices.
2
SPEAKER_01
Basically it makes it so that you re always using willpower because you re preventing yourself from being bad.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right, okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because you have to resist the choice.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you have to resist the choice from ordering it, which is essentially what happens every time most of us go to a restaurant.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, oh, I really want this burger, but oh, I m going to hate myself later.
2
SPEAKER_00
We hear that.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s in commercials all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so then what inevitably happens?
2
SPEAKER_00
You eventually let yourself have it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, you order it because you really want it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then afterwards you go, I m such a fat piece of shit.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or at least that s what I do.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know what everybody else does, you know?
2
SPEAKER_00
And then you re like, oh, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you feel sick.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
And for some people on top of that, they feel guilty and then they ll binge the whole next day and maybe for a week or two.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then you get those floodgates where you re like, well, today s already screwed, so I might as well have frozen yogurt, and I might as well then eat this candy, because I already had a burger for dinner.
2
SPEAKER_00
So today is shot, and then the next day it s like, well, you know, the whole holiday season is shot.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, we have these brownies here.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s the holidays.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, we got to do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
People constantly do that, and I can t even count the number of times that myself and my family and friends, you know, it s January.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t even need to anecdotally explain this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Just go to a gym in January and notice how crowded it was compared to December.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the point should be proven because everybody s trying, not just New Year s resolutions, everybody s trying to work off what they did before because they re having one giant, oh my God, I m so fat, just like you do when you go to the restaurant and you order that burger.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s so many things here that I think everyone can relate to, but it does seem like a really dangerous path to go down, because you can really start to beat yourself up, and it can become part of your identity that you re just an unhealthy eater.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I know tons of people like that, who just, they go, yeah, you know, I eat like crap, but I only eat one meal a day, and I m like, I m pretty sure that s worse than eating three meals a day.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s a critical point.
2
SPEAKER_01
When it starts becoming part of your identity, then you find ways to make excuses for the bad behavior.
2
SPEAKER_01
So if you tell yourself that you re just the type of person who doesn t like vegetables.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, guess what?
2
SPEAKER_01
You re never going to eat healthy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s probably not true also.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s the same idea as sort of moralizing.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s sort of, it starts generalizing to an all or nothing game that s almost like zero sum.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s almost never, it reflects reality.
2
SPEAKER_01
So the way to undo, for example, the moralizing food is realizing that there s no food that s innately good or bad.
2
SPEAKER_01
There are foods that you can eat that help your health, that are very nutritious, that make you feel good, that make you feel energized after you eat them.
2
SPEAKER_01
And there are foods you eat just because they re freaking delicious.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you know if you eat too much of it, you might feel sick.
2
SPEAKER_01
And sometimes you might eat too much of it anyway.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it s not
2
SPEAKER_01
bad, there s nothing wrong with inherently enjoying something or eating something for that reason.
2
SPEAKER_01
But when you start creating these dichotomies, then you set yourself up for these traps.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the identity thing can come back to that same issue.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like, chances are
2
SPEAKER_01
you come to my house.
2
SPEAKER_01
If there s a vegetable you don t like, come to my house.
2
SPEAKER_01
I will make it for you so that you like it.
2
SPEAKER_01
But there s a couple caveats.
2
SPEAKER_01
One, I have to get the vegetable in the right season.
2
SPEAKER_01
And two, I have to cook it in a way that is something probably new to you, something different.
2
SPEAKER_01
But if you just have the mentality that, you know what, I will never like that, then you re basically just setting yourself up to fail and you re not actually reflecting reality.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so you don t give yourself any room to grow or to develop the things that you actually say you want.
2
SPEAKER_00
Jason, we re going to Daria s house for kale and broccoli.
2
SPEAKER_00
Are you down?
2
SPEAKER_00
I m down, I m down.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, honestly, there are some things where I just don t believe they can be made to taste good, but I ll take your word for it.
2
SPEAKER_00
We ll come back to that maybe.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, speaking of identity, we had General Stanley McChrystal come on the show just recently.
2
SPEAKER_00
and he is well-known.
2
SPEAKER_00
In all these circles, he does interviews and stuff like that, or people talk about him, and it s in articles, and he only eats one meal a day, and he still kind of does that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I asked him about it, and he said, yeah, I don t do it for health reasons, I don t do it because I think it s a good habit, and he goes, all these entrepreneurs and business guys, they re always harping on, oh, you only eat one meal a day, how, this is so great.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it goes back to your earlier point about the no pain, no gain thing being unhealthy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Even he says, the reason I do that is because I can t be sitting in a combat theater in Afghanistan chowing down while I m with a bunch of soldiers who haven t eaten in a day because they ve been in the middle of a firefight, but I m the general so I get to eat.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s like, it s a bad habit, and yet it s one of the things that s held up as look how tough and awesome this guy is, he barely ever even eats.
2
SPEAKER_00
that s become a part of his identity, such that now that he s retired, he s still only eating one meal a day, and he kinda just got used to it, but also, I think there s a part of us, and of him, that has moralized this as, well, if I start eating more than one meal a day, it means I ve lost some of my grit.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s not healthy because we do that to ourselves all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s women out there that think, I have to look like I did in high school or college.
2
SPEAKER_00
I see this at the gym all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
These guys that probably haven t worked out in 20 years, they re there doing bench press every day because they want to look like they did in 1987 or something.
2
SPEAKER_00
And this all goes back to this sort of moralistic view of what we have to do or what we have to be.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they re not creating habits, right?
3
SPEAKER_05
We go to the gym five or six days in one week, and then we don t see them till Q2 of 2017.
3
SPEAKER_05
And this is really, really bad.
3
SPEAKER_05
It s probably well-acknowledged, but you re the doctor here.
3
SPEAKER_05
If you re not creating good habits, you re essentially just creating bad habits.
3
SPEAKER_05
Does that make sense?
3
SPEAKER_01
There s probably something about that.
3
SPEAKER_01
I haven t thought about it.
3
SPEAKER_01
So much of habit formation happens subconsciously.
3
SPEAKER_01
We don t really think about it.
3
SPEAKER_01
We sort of bounce.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, we don t think about most of our days.
3
SPEAKER_01
I read a statistic somewhere from a very good scientist that something like 90% of our food choices are sort of automatic, thoughtless, like mindless, that we don t even actually register them as a decision.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like that s just how it is, you know?
3
SPEAKER_01
And when you re in an environment like Western culture, where everything is cuing you to eat bad, eat more, eat
3
SPEAKER_01
junk food, eat cheap, eat whatever, eat bigger, supersize.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like that s not a recipe for winning.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think one of the hidden strengths that we have isn t necessarily willpower, but the recognition that we can engineer our habits and that if we do it consciously, we re not super judgmental with ourselves about it because it s trial and error process.
3
SPEAKER_01
It really is.
3
SPEAKER_01
Then we can create this life that we want in a way that actually works for us.
3
SPEAKER_05
Now, you mentioned earlier that every habit has a trigger, an action, and a reward.
3
SPEAKER_05
I wanna outline that pattern a little bit more.
3
SPEAKER_05
Tell us what the triggers are, tell us what the actions are, and tell us what types of rewards we gotta use.
3
SPEAKER_05
We sort of mentioned that intrinsic motivator, but let s put it all together in one place.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so I think of it more like it s a circle.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a loop.
3
SPEAKER_01
So the trigger can be anything.
3
SPEAKER_01
For instance, maybe the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning is you go into the kitchen and you make some coffee and you have breakfast.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or in the afternoon, let s say you re getting tired
3
SPEAKER_01
and you re working but you need a break and so you go to the kitchen and you open the fridge and you get something or you go to the cafe and you buy something.
3
SPEAKER_01
You may think you re choosing to go get that snack, but really it s just your brain sort of being like, I m tired.
3
SPEAKER_01
I want a break.
3
SPEAKER_01
Triggers can be in many forms.
3
SPEAKER_01
They can either be something physical, like that you see something on TV and it makes you crave a soda, or it can be an emotion, like I m tired, I m anxious, I m upset, I need comfort.
3
SPEAKER_01
And these force sort of action loops in us that have been reinforced with rewards in some way.
3
SPEAKER_01
And those rewards can also be anything, but they re usually intrinsic.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like I said, they are usually intrinsic to the activity.
3
SPEAKER_01
So maybe you
3
SPEAKER_01
feel good after eating something because it s sweet and rewarding and reminds you of grandma or something.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or, I don t know, you just, you were hungry and now you re not hungry, so you feel better.
3
SPEAKER_01
The action in there can sort of be anything as long as the trigger and the reward are the same.
3
SPEAKER_01
And sometimes you can replace a trigger or reward.
3
SPEAKER_01
So there s sort of three places that you have the opportunity to manipulate your habits that you actually have control over.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, let s say two, because I don t know if you can control whether or not something s rewarding for you a little bit, but less so.
3
SPEAKER_01
than the trigger and the action itself.
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I guess you could build some sort of reward system over time.
3
SPEAKER_05
For example, I used to hate vegetables of all kinds, and maybe my taste buds have just evolved a little bit since I m older, but I basically told myself broccoli, Brussels sprouts, kale, and all these weird Chinese vegetables that are green leafy things like yam leaves, I can t remember what they re called in English, but I ve basically told myself these are really tasty.
3
SPEAKER_05
and I forced myself to eat them for a long time, willpower, right, but now I actually do like them.
3
SPEAKER_05
I mean, my brain thinks yum when I eat them, and I remember what I didn t like about them originally, and I just don t care anymore.
3
SPEAKER_05
I still get a little bit of that, I guess, what is it, dopamine from eating in general, and I just basically convinced myself that this is what I have.
3
SPEAKER_05
I feel like the brain adapts a little bit to that because, well, for one thing, you get rid of all the artificial crap that you re putting in your food and your tastes will change, but also the fact is your brain will reward you for eating anything, generally, right?
3
SPEAKER_05
And so if you can kind of reset those expectations, then you should be able to build a healthy-ish habit based on that.
3
SPEAKER_05
To go back to your early point about triggers,
3
SPEAKER_05
Do the triggers have to be subconscious?
3
SPEAKER_05
I guess they would be, otherwise you re just using willpower, right?
3
SPEAKER_05
If you have an alarm on your phone that says, eat salad, that rings every day during lunch, that still requires willpower.
3
SPEAKER_05
So the trigger has to be subconscious.
3
SPEAKER_05
Can you give an example of a subconscious trigger?
3
SPEAKER_05
Cause I m trying, I m having trouble placing this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
We have to trigger something subconscious.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I really wanted to develop the habit of, I used to eat really fast.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think a lot of people who have dieted in the past or restricted their food intake in some way tend to eat really fast.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I d read a bunch that chewing your food thoroughly was important and eating mindfully is important.
3
SPEAKER_01
So this is a habit I want to develop.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it was hard.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was really hard because, I mean, if you think about it with mindfulness, it s intrinsically
3
SPEAKER_01
difficult to remember.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s the point.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
Try to remember.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you re eating mindfully, you don t know that you re not mindful.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I would try to like set an alarm right before lunch and be like, remember to eat mindfully.
3
SPEAKER_01
Never worked.
3
SPEAKER_01
Never worked because I d be in the middle of something and then I d go to lunch five minutes later and then I would have totally forgotten by then because my brain went to something else first.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I thought about this trigger thing for a long time, and it took me like six months to figure this out.
3
SPEAKER_01
But eventually I realized that what I really wanted to do was chew my food more.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that s the action.
3
SPEAKER_01
I wanted to chew more.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, well, what happens
3
SPEAKER_01
I was like trying to think, what happens immediately before you chew?
3
SPEAKER_01
I was like, well, I take some food with my fork and I like, like sort of stabbed my plate and get some food and then I put it in my mouth.
3
SPEAKER_01
What I realized that I was doing was that I was stabbing my food and chewing it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And while I was chewing my food, I was stabbing the new bite.
3
SPEAKER_01
Your mouth is full and you re chewing and you re like preparing your next bite.
3
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, right.
3
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, I shovel food into my mouth.
3
SPEAKER_05
If there s a speed eating contest, I would dominate.
3
SPEAKER_05
I can eat real fast.
3
SPEAKER_00
I probably used to, would have given you a run for your money in the old days.
3
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I m gonna back him up on that.
3
SPEAKER_04
I ve never seen anybody eat as fast as Jordan does.
3
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, it s kind of ridiculous.
3
SPEAKER_05
It s almost like watching a little kid who just wants to go back and play with his toys eat.
3
SPEAKER_05
It s just I am housing that food.
3
SPEAKER_05
And I remember even when I was in high school,
3
SPEAKER_05
I was an exchange student in Germany and the host father had been in the German army.
3
SPEAKER_05
And he goes, you d make a good soldier.
3
SPEAKER_05
I ve never seen anyone eat that fast.
3
SPEAKER_05
He goes, even when we were eating in a tank deployed to the Czech Republic, because it was like an uprising or something, he goes, I ve never seen people eat that fast.
3
SPEAKER_05
And so, but yeah, we can have a kale speed eating contest when we get to your house for dinner.
3
SPEAKER_01
Did you have a lot of siblings?
3
SPEAKER_05
No, I didn t.
3
SPEAKER_05
I m an only child.
3
SPEAKER_05
So it s weird because I had no real reason to go and eat that quickly.
3
SPEAKER_05
I just, I just do.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, sometimes people with a lot of siblings eat fast and dieters, people who have dieted tend to eat fast, but I d love to dig into that one with you one day.
3
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, why do dieters eat fast?
3
SPEAKER_05
I m curious.
3
SPEAKER_05
It doesn t make sense.
3
SPEAKER_05
Seems like if you re on a diet, you d want to eat really slowly so that, you know, feel more full, like your eating takes longer.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I don t know exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
My theory is that it s because
4
SPEAKER_01
because you spend so much time hungry, that once you let yourself eat, your body s just like, ah, give me all the food.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right, or there s guilt around eating, so you just wanna get it over with, because maybe it doesn t feel good to eat, because it s like you re giving up.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, interesting and sad.
4
SPEAKER_01
Back to the example of the trigger, though.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I was plowing through this food, and I realized I was preparing my next bite.
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That was the reason I was swallowing my food too fast, because I had another bite ready.
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I was like, oh, time to eat again.
4
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So I would like,
4
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half way chew my food, swallow it mostly unchewed, and then shovel another fork full of food in my mouth.
4
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And so I realized that this was something I could work on.
4
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And so what I decided to do is I started to just ask myself while I was preparing another bite of food.
4
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Just one simple question, is there food in your mouth right now?
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And if the answer was yes, then I would make myself put my fork down.
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And that was actually the trigger I needed, because once my fork was down, I no longer felt the impulse to chew faster and swallow.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right, if you re holding the fork still, you re just waiting for the opportunity to shovel something else in there, especially if it s already got food on it.
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It s a trigger.
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I m gonna try this.
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Let me ask you this.
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Can you guess what the reward is for this particular habit?
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For the slowing down habit?
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Making everyone wait for you?
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SPEAKER_00
I don t know, I don t know.
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SPEAKER_01
Torturing everybody you love.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
No, so this is a crazy thing and this is why I know this is a habit for me now.
4
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It makes me super uncomfortable to eat fast now.
4
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And so now I chew my food very thoroughly and I ve developed this habit.
4
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But sometimes I m in a hurry and sometimes I m thinking of something else and sometimes I find myself starting to eat quickly again.
4
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And what happens, the way I notice I m doing it, if my mind is elsewhere, when I swallow food that has not been chewed well enough, it s so uncomfortable now.
4
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It s like feels weird in my throat.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like all pokey.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, right.
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SPEAKER_00
It s almost like you re choking.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, totally.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, I can see that.
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SPEAKER_00
I can see that.
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So it s weird.
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It s like I had to develop enough of a trigger to remind myself to chew enough so that I could develop a reward about it.
4
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And now it s a habit.
4
SPEAKER_00
This makes sense.
4
SPEAKER_00
And the rewards, it seems like they have to be related, closely related to the action and not something that you are giving yourself, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Not like if I lose 10 pounds, I ll book a vacation.
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SPEAKER_00
It seems like the reward is very mechanical and simple.
4
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Exactly.
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That s what I mean when I say intrinsic reward.
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So you can t like impose a reward and you can t really impose a trigger.
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They have to be sort of intimately related to the action.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right, okay, so extrinsic would be, I ll book a trip to Hawaii when I look good in my swimsuit, whereas intrinsic is, it feels good to swallow because I ve chewed my food thoroughly, which is weirder sounding and much smaller and frankly cheaper than going to Hawaii, and yet probably a little bit of a trickier habit to build because, right, it doesn t require only willpower.
4
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What doesn t work, and you know, I tried this too, is like a lot of people say they eat until they re sick.
4
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And you know, even the knowledge that you ll be sick in 20 minutes if you eat too fast isn t enough.
4
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it s too far removed, it s too far away, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Your brain doesn t even recognize this type of thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
So what about those people who go, all right, cool, listen to Daria and Jordan, that was so cool, I m gonna stop eating ice cream, I m gonna start eating breakfast, I m gonna make sure I eat healthy food, I m gonna go run every day, I m gonna go to the gym every day.
4
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Basically New Year s resolution people.
4
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What about that?
4
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Because I feel like when we set up small habits, if somebody s listening to this and they go, I m just gonna make sure that I eat vegetables at least once per day, they go, ugh, that s not enough, right?
4
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People wanna take this extreme action.
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What do you think about that?
4
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Right.
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So that s a really common issue.
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And it s actually something that sort of something that happens as a result of some of that moralizing.
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We have this idea that we have to like do enough, like that we have to push super hard.
4
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Like for instance, like I ve had friends tell me that they want to like lose weight for their wedding or something and that they want to like run three or four times a week.
4
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It s like, well, that s great.
4
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OK.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, how much are you running now?
4
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And they ll say, like, none.
4
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But I m like, well, why don t you start by taking like a walk?
4
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Like, why don t you walk three times?
4
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Like, well, I ll never lose weight if I do that.
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay, that makes sense if you re looking at it from the dieting willpower perspective because the goal is quick goal achievable.
4
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But when you look at it from a habit perspective, the hard part is setting up the habit.
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And so that s actually what you want to focus on.
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You can always build on it.
4
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You can always do more.
4
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If you let not doing enough stop you, you re never going to get anywhere.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right, because otherwise you gotta take extreme action and then you try to do that and then you go, ugh, this is such a pain or I won t do this.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you end up not building habits, instead you just give yourself a ton of stuff that saps all your willpower because you re trying to do 10 different things.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and then you feel guilty for it, and then you probably go in the closet and eat a bucket of cookies.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_00
So habits, if you do them in tiny little pieces, drop by drop, the habits should be easier to form, and then, of course, last longer, therefore are preferable to just taking massive action, per se.
4
SPEAKER_00
We talked about long-term habits having a long-term impact on your health.
4
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What other sort of mindsets can we adopt for this?
4
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Maybe even some habits mixed in with these mindsets here.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, it s not just about eating, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
It s not just about walking around the block.
4
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What are some of these concrete habits and mindsets that you have that are actually working for you and people that you work with at Summer Tomato?
4
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When you approach something with the idea that nothing can change, that you are the way you are.
4
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You know, Carol Dweck wrote an amazing book called Mindset, where she talks about the difference between a fixed mindset and a growth mindset.
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And a fixed mindset is when you think, I m just the way I am.
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I m never going to change.
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The world is the way it is.
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And you sort of pick your battles based on that versus somebody who thinks to themselves, I don t like that yet.
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I don t know how to do that yet.
4
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I would like to develop that skill.
4
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It takes some effort.
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You need to bring that growth mindset to your health because it s a lot of trial and error and we are completely conditioned to
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live in the most unhealthy way possible.
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Like we re programmed to eat hyper processed junk food, sugar, fat, salt.
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That s what we grew up eating.
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So that s what we tend to like.
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We are told that there are people who are really good at things and there are people who are not good at things.
4
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And you might think that you don t like exercise or you may think that you don t like
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broccoli.
4
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And that makes it hard.
4
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If you come to your health with that attitude, it makes it hard to ever really make any progress because basically you re forcing yourself into a situation where you have to use willpower.
4
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Instead, what I encourage people to do is more like what you did and think to yourself, it s possible to like this.
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You know, I might not like it right now, but
4
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I need to give it a chance or it s possible to become a cook.
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I can be somebody who cooks dinner for myself.
4
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Like this is something that it s a habit that cooking is a habit that I recommend to everyone because it s one of the best possible ways to take control of your health.
4
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But so many people are like, I can t cook.
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I hate cooking.
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I never learned to cook.
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I have no skill.
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They think, you know, it s a natural innate skill.
4
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that think they don t have time.
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There s a million reasons, but all those things are things you can work on, but if you don t have the mindset that those are work-on-able, then you re sort of screwed.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right, yeah, of course.
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We ve had Dr. Carol Dweck on the show as well.
4
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She is phenomenal.
4
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I mean, it s a simple concept in a way, and yet it s so profound when you realize that pretty much everything in your life is actually flexible.
4
SPEAKER_00
It also is a little uncomfortable, because your excuses are basically stripped completely bare.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, that s the whole point, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like you have to become comfortable with a little discomfort and realize that it won t kill you.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
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You hear that, Jordan?
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You can become a cook now.
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No, it s impossible.
4
Come on.
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Luckily, my girlfriend and her father love to cook, so I m just a mooch.
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I m really good at mooching.
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I realize I could cook.
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It s just one of those things.
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And when I do cook, when people sort of make me do it, I enjoy it.
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I just, I m not in the mood for another hobby.
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I ll stick to Chinese.
4
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The other benefit of this growth mindset is you can view yourself in many ways as a scientist
4
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testing new experiments on yourself, right?
4
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So you can kind of, like I did before, create a pattern in your brain that says you do like vegetables.
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And more recently, you love going to the gym and doing these weird exercises that your trainer gave you that look really dangerous.
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I d started doing power lifting instead of just like curls while watching the basketball game and doing kettlebells and stuff.
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All the stuff that I thought, oh gosh, you know,
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I am not one of those guys that does X. And now I m like, I am totally one of those guys that does this.
4
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And you can make yourself do it, it s just it does require those gradual changes.
4
SPEAKER_00
Do you have sort of a process to create these small different habits or changes or these actions and make them stick?
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Yeah, so you have to take this approach of being open to understand that everything is a process of trial and error.
4
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And what I hear from people all the time
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is that they ll want to accomplish some grandiose goal and they will fail.
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And then they will feel terrible about themselves and either not try it again or overcompensate in some way.
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And that s really a self-defeating cycle and it s not necessary.
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So instead, I recommend
5
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For instance, let s say you want to start waking up in the morning earlier to go work out.
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Your gut may be to say something like, I m just too tired.
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I can t do that.
5
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But there are things you can test to see if that is accurate.
5
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So OK, if you re too tired, go to bed earlier.
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And you can test the process of doing that.
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I ve done this.
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I ve wrote about this recently.
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So when I tried to do this when I was in graduate school,
5
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I first realized I was too tired, so I started going to bed earlier.
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The next thing I realized is that the main reason I didn t want to get up in the morning was because it was winter and I didn t want to get up because it was freezing out and I was comfy, toasty warm in my bed.
5
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And so eventually I started laying out my workout clothes like right next to the bed to solve that problem.
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And eventually I created a system where getting out of bed wasn t that hard.
5
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And that was really the problem.
5
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But what I had to be able to do was every single day,
5
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that I failed to not tell myself, this is impossible, but to say, well, that didn t work.
5
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I better try something different.
5
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whenever you try something new, you can think in your head, you can go through a checklist and ask yourself three questions.
5
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First question is, what did I try that worked successfully?
5
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What was successful?
5
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For instance, for my wake up time, I knew I wasn t tired anymore, but I still didn t want to get out of bed.
5
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So something worked, but I still wasn t succeeding at getting to the gym.
5
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Then you can ask yourself, well, what failed?
5
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And in that case, I was too cold and I didn t want to get up.
5
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And the idea of like sort of
5
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sleepwalking through the dark to dig through my drawers just wasn t appealing.
5
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So then I asked myself the third question, which is, what can you do different next time?
5
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And the next time I decided to lay my stuff out the night before so that when I got up in the morning, I could just put them right on.
5
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And that worked.
5
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So if you go through this checklist, what worked, what didn t work, and what could I do differently next time, you turn a failure into a learning experience.
5
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And if you can learn from it, then it s not really a failure.
5
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You just haven t succeeded yet, and you still can next time.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right, and since you can see little changes doing something, succeeding or failing, or a little bit of both usually, then you can start to see that that s how you get rid of that fixed mindset.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because you start to prove to yourself, well I changed this, and then I changed that.
5
SPEAKER_00
and then I changed this other thing, and those all worked, why would this be any different?
5
SPEAKER_00
And some healthy, you call them home court habits, which I think is a great name, cooking and grocery shopping and eating vegetables, and I assume you put those in there because a lot of people, especially in Manhattan where you live, they don t cook and they don t grocery shop.
5
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So people are kind of under this.
5
SPEAKER_00
mistaken perception that you can go to the grocery store and get ready-made food, or you can go to a restaurant and you can get something quote-unquote healthy, even though the goal at the restaurant is to make you come back by giving you something that tastes good.
5
SPEAKER_00
So they re not gonna tell you how much salt and sugar and butter and all that stuff is really in there.
5
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You have to be able to control that yourself.
5
SPEAKER_00
Other habits, walking 10,000 steps a day, strength training, whatever, regular sleep, mindful eating like you talked about, eating breakfast.
5
SPEAKER_00
Is the jury still out on eating breakfast?
5
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Because there s a million people that say,
5
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breakfast is the most important meal of the day, and then there s a million and a half that say, screw breakfast, you know, I do this other crazy thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
Do you eat breakfast?
5
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I do eat breakfast.
5
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It s something that is important for me.
5
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But the thing about health is that everybody s different.
5
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So, I mean, if you re not eating breakfast, but you re overeating later in the day, and you just say, I m not a breakfast person, I would say you should maybe consider that maybe eating breakfast would help you.
5
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But there are some people that
5
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Eating breakfast just makes them eat more later.
5
SPEAKER_01
And if that s you, then maybe breakfast isn t the best for you.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right, so it s basically, again, going back to what you just said, testing this and seeing what works for you, that makes sense.
5
SPEAKER_00
One thing I thought was surprising in your home court habits is good relationships.
5
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Can you tell me, you re speaking my language here, Art of Charm is all about developing, maintaining healthy relationships.
5
SPEAKER_00
What do you mean by this?
5
SPEAKER_00
What s the science behind this making you healthier?
5
SPEAKER_01
The data is actually amazing.
5
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So one of the best predictors of longevity and happiness and contentment throughout life is the strength and quality and number of your close relationships with people.
5
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So yeah, like I approach health from my fundamental core belief is that life should be awesome.
5
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Like you should be crushing it.
5
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You should be happy.
5
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And the reason to be healthy is to make that true, right?
5
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You want to feel strong.
5
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You want to feel like you have energy.
5
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And one of the pinnacle, most important aspects of health seems to be your relationships.
5
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And I know from experience, and I m sure you do too, that those are one of the things that makes you incredibly happy as well.
5
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So it s like a double win there.
5
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But yeah, the side of science, it s shocking actually.
5
SPEAKER_00
Sure, I mean, at AOC, our core product, if you will, we have an online product called Social Capital that teaches networking and relationships, but our boot camps here that we teach, the week-long programs, they re all about creating those and maintaining those relationships and deepening those relationships.
5
SPEAKER_00
So, yeah, maybe we need to throw a little bullet point on our sales page about how people who have successful relationships live longer and live happier.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m sure that s something that most of us want.
5
SPEAKER_00
I am curious, though, so many people that I know are
5
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counting calories, they re doing all of this.
5
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Is that something that you do?
5
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Because I know going back to you being an overachiever seems like something that you could have gotten into at one point.
5
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I m wondering if you still do that.
5
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I do not.
5
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Last time I moved when I moved from San Francisco to New York, I found my journals.
5
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So there was a time when I recorded everything I ate for like years and years and years.
5
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And gosh, that was horrifying to see all those.
5
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But no, that is no longer something I do.
5
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If somebody is new to
5
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watching what they eat and focusing on healthy food.
5
SPEAKER_01
I do recommend people keep a habit journal.
5
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I think recording what you eat for a while and recording sort of the things that you do most often can be super valuable because a lot of people just need to bring that awareness.
5
SPEAKER_01
They re just not quite sure.
5
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But I don t support calorie counting for a number of reasons.
5
SPEAKER_01
A big one is that they re super inaccurate.
5
SPEAKER_01
People don t realize that calorie counts on food packages are legally allowed to be 20% wrong.
5
SPEAKER_00
Which is enormous.
5
SPEAKER_01
Which is enormous.
5
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And same thing with exercise.
5
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Like you re not, you don t really know how many calories you re burning.
5
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You need to know your basal metabolism.
5
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It s just, it s sort of silly.
5
SPEAKER_01
Some people still find value in it in that they can, it keeps track a little bit of like the volume of food they re eating.
5
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But for me, I don t think that makes my life awesome.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I ve developed sort of my home court habits so that I don t have to count calories.
5
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I know pretty much exactly what I do and don t do that keeps me at my weight.
5
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that I want to be and feeling the way I want to feel.
5
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So I believe that if you dial in your habits well enough, it s not necessary.
5
SPEAKER_00
or you just killed an entire app market there.
5
SPEAKER_00
I agree with you.
5
SPEAKER_00
I always suspected that the reason that people count calories, because the people that I know that do that are maybe a little bit like this, it s just something for people to do so that they feel like they re doing more, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
These are the same guys that are like, oh, I wear blue blockers every day.
5
SPEAKER_00
They re constantly optimizing, which is great, I love it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I love the hacking and everything, but I feel like the counting calories is kind of a geek factor thing and not really that necessary.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like if they stop counting calories tomorrow, they would feel anxious about not counting calories, but their level of health, weight, whatever, would not change at all.
5
SPEAKER_01
100%, and I actually find that more often than not, it adds to anxiety, because if you go over and then you have to make up for it somehow, or you re a bad person, and yeah, for me, it s definitely diminishing returns.
5
SPEAKER_01
To some extent, it is very nice to be aware of what you re eating, but you can just drive yourself crazy doing stuff like that.
5
SPEAKER_00
You mentioned that you found your old journals.
5
SPEAKER_00
Do you still journal about the health and nutrition stuff, or was that just calorie counting?
5
SPEAKER_01
No, that was just me trying to be skinny.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right now, my journal is my blog.
5
SPEAKER_00
Gotcha.
5
SPEAKER_00
So you don t necessarily recommend that people listening to this bust out a journal and track what they re eating or anything like that or track their exercise or any of that?
5
SPEAKER_01
No, like I said though, if people are interested in adapting this sort of approach to food and you ve never done it before and you aren t necessarily sure what volume of food you re eating, because a lot of people, I mean, this is a real problem, people eat massive portion sizes.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, in America, it s ridiculous.
5
SPEAKER_01
So if you re new to this stuff, there s certainly some value in taking an inventory for a couple of weeks.
5
SPEAKER_01
No, I mean, I don t necessarily think it should be a lifelong thing or something that s even that valuable for somebody.
5
SPEAKER_01
If somebody has dieted for a long time and they know calorie counts really well already, you re not gonna get any more.
5
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You re just gonna drive yourself crazy.
5
SPEAKER_00
Daria, this has been super interesting.
5
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I love the habit formation.
5
SPEAKER_00
Of course, yes, food journals do suck, and I m so glad you let us all off the hook there.
5
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But is there anything I haven t asked you that you wanna make absolutely sure you convey to the AOC family?
5
SPEAKER_01
I think the biggest point that I m always trying to convince people of is that the psychology is really what
6
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holding people back.
6
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I mean, you know, we tend to blame time, we tend to blame energy, we tend to blame our work, our partners, whatever.
6
SPEAKER_00
But at the end of the day, it s in our heads and most of the roadblocks we create are in there and are solvable and not through pain, but through pleasure by creating these habits and being super open-minded about what s possible.
6
SPEAKER_00
And
6
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It s actually a really liberating thing when you think about it, because when you think about the prevailing paradigm, it s like you have to not eat what you want, eat a bunch of boring stuff that doesn t taste good, work your butt off in the gym until you re sweating and miserable, and then in some distant future, you ll be happy.
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And what I m telling you is that A, that doesn t work and B, if you actually just try to be happy now and eat foods that both make you feel good and taste good and you enjoy with the people you love and do activities that you love, that you ll actually get the results and you might actually be happy
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Soon, today, you ll be happy today.
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You ll actually enjoy what you re eating today.
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And the results actually come and they stay.
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It s a crazy thing to think about that we re all doing this insanity completely backwards.
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So I think that s my moment of zen right there.
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Thank you so much.
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Super enlightening, and I love that we can take this and not make it about dieting, but make it about any sort of habit change.
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However, the coincidental timing of the holidays, New Years, and maybe not eating the equivalent of a Big Mac every day for breakfast.
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I even thought about taking a picture of what I ate yesterday for breakfast, but then I moralized and felt shame and didn t.
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Because I was gonna send it to you and go, what about this?
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And then I just felt like, no.
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I feel disgusting even looking at this right now.
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Yeah, so thank you so much for this.
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Really, really enlightening and useful episode.
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Yeah, it was a pleasure.
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Thanks so much for having me.
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Super interesting stuff.
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Really love The Habit Psychology.
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That is just our bag here at AOC.
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Really well explained.
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Daria s just great at conveying this information in an easily digestible format.
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Great fit for the show.
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And a great big thank you to Daria for coming on today.
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The book is called Foodist.
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and we ll have that linked up in the show notes as well for this episode.
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And if you enjoyed this, don t forget to thank Daria on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well.
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Remember, you can tap your phone screen and the show notes should pop right up.
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I m also on Twitter.
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I post a lot of things that never make it to the show, articles, insights, and it s a great way to get in touch with me and producer Jason.
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I m at The Art of Charm on Twitter.
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Our boot camps, that s our live programs that we run out in L.A., you can check those out, bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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The live program is by far and away my favorite part of running AOC.
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Really spectacular results, spectacular guys, and I love everybody that joins the AOC family.
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Just such a joy to have that in my life.
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I also want to encourage you to join us here in this AOC challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or if you re in the States, you can simply text the word charmed.
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C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
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The challenge is about improving your networking skills, improving your connection skills, and inspiring those around you to develop a relationship with you, both personal and professional reasons.
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We ll also email you our Fundamentals Toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show, if you text up there.
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I m also doing regular videos with drills and exercises.
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Those will help you move forward and develop some new great habits.
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It will make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker.
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And you know that s our jam here at AOC.
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So just go to theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or you can text the word charmed in the US, C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to the number 33444.
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For full show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show, head on over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFillippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor, and show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else either in person or shared on the web, so stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.