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This is the art of charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re talking with my friend, Brian Featherston-Hill.
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He s the author of The Long View, Career Strategies to Help You Start Strong, Reach High, and Go Far.
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Look, I know, a career book, ugh, I ve read so many bad career books, you probably have too, both when you re in high school and undergrad and grad school, whatever, and they ve always been kind of useless, but the reason I wanted to talk to Brian was he has a great career.
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He s the CEO of Ogilvy One,
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He s got a lot of experience in the corporate world in a creative niche that s a highly coveted field, and this is based on what he s hiring for, what he s looking for in senior leaders and new people in his companies.
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We talk a lot about the value of reframing your experiences, whether you just rebooted your career, you re a returning mother coming back into the workforce, or you re fresh off the college boat and you want to get into something.
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We talk about career inventories, career math, meaning
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looking at the different stages of your career and what you need to do in each one, and something called career fuel, which involves skills, resolving conflict, meaningful experiences, networks, and enduring relationships.
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There s a lot here, so enjoy this one with Brian, and with that, welcome to the Art of Charm.
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We bring together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, in your relationships, and at work.
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If you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the toolbox where we discuss things like body language and nonverbal communication, persuasion, networking, negotiation, mentorship, and everything else we teach here at AOC.
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In the United States, just text charmed to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
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Everywhere else, go to theartofcharm.com.
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We may not have all the answers, but we definitely have all the right questions.
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Alright, here s Brian Featherston Howell.
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First, when I heard of this book, when I heard of the project, I thought, I don t know, a career book?
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There s so many career books out there.
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I ve read so many terrible career books, even when I was in high school, when I was in undergrad, when I was in law school.
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None of them had any basis in reality, and I think a lot of career books are written by people whose job it is to give career advice in maybe a public institution or something like that, and they re not necessarily in touch
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with the real market and the real decision-making processes that result in hires, promotions, and successful careers.
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But as a top executive at Oral-V, why write a career book?
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It seems kind of out of left field.
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I mean, you have a great career, but why write about it?
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Well, I really sensed, Jordan, that there was this huge appetite for something that was not theoretical, that was totally based in reality and based in some observations over the long term, but also very resonant to today.
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So I really tried to write something based on my own experience, my own career.
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I ve seen hundreds and hundreds
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I ve seen your leaders operate we ve got over five thousand staff around the world in our own company the average age in our company is twenty eight so just so many people dealing with the reality of careers not the theory of careers.
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Yeah, I think that s a really big deal, because we ve been sold a lot of information, marketed to by everything from colleges and universities to certain types of trade programs, but it s not always really a good thing to necessarily get more or different types of training based on the marketing that you get.
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And I feel like a lot of people go into the working world, I know that s how I did, fully unprepared, completely unprepared.
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And I d never heard of some of these concepts that you write about, and that s what made this really interesting for me, especially was I ve never seen anybody give really good career advice who s already still in a successful career and how to, of course, create a plan and bring it to life.
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And I love these concepts like career fuel and career math, which all made me think differently, even as an entrepreneur.
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So I d love to get into that a little bit.
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When I m coming out of school or when I m transitioning from one career to another, how do I even make a plan?
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If I m young or just perhaps going through school now, how do I make a plan?
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When I was coming out of school, I had no idea how hiring worked.
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I had no idea how getting promoted would work or
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finding jobs and niches inside companies, I just had no idea any of that even really existed, and nobody was really talking about it.
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So in sort of living in that black box, how do we then create a plan without enough info, or how do we get the right information?
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Well, it s so interesting, you know, by the time we finish college, for example, we probably spent, you know, 15,000 hours getting educated and almost none of us have any clue how to do a career strategy.
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So it s a bit ironic that we get to the end of the game and we re about to start this, you know, incredibly long career and we re not super well prepared.
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So I ve got a couple of pieces of fundamental advice.
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Number one is you ve got to get into the right mindset for a career.
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And there s an exercise I call career math.
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which is just asking yourself five questions that helps you appreciate what the task ahead is as you start to plot out career strategy.
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There s another exercise I call, which is doing a career inventory.
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And you mentioned this notion of career fuel.
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And it s really taking stock, not of the technical skills that you have, but the deep
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Longer term transportable kind of skills that you built up overtime there s another exercise called the personal time portfolio which is based on how you actually spending your time in the course of a week how much is on work.
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and chilling with friends and family and learning and other stuff so there s a couple of basic exercises that are really foundational to plotting out a career path and then coming back to what it s not once and done you really need to build it like a muscle set that you can use over the course of your long career.
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Let s talk a little bit about the career math because when I saw this I kind of, I was surprised at the results and I guarantee you that other people will be as well.
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I guess I d never thought about the length of the career and how weighted it is towards the sort of later in the game years, especially when it comes to wealth building.
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Can you speak to that a little bit?
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Career math is five questions and it fundamentally exposes that most people miss how long careers are.
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They focus too much on the short term.
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and they missed the big picture.
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Question number one, I encourage people just take the number 62 and deduct your current age.
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So if you re 30, the answer is 32, et cetera, et cetera.
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So basically what this is, this number, the answer to question one is the number of years that you have left until early retirement.
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So most people are absolutely shocked, especially people in their 20s that got 30, 35, it could have 40 years left of career.
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And that s the big point.
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And remember, 62 is early retirement, the actual average retirement age in established economies like the United States, and in Canada it s like 65, and it s getting longer.
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So, point number one is, wow, is it ever a long period of time.
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Why is it so important to even realize how long our career path is?
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Because it seems like, oh yeah, so what, I got 30 years left.
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Why is that a big deal?
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Why is it important?
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You re a sprinter or a marathon runner.
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on pacing, on preparation, on strategy based on how long the race is.
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How many winners of marathons are always sprinting ahead and winning after the first mile or kilometer?
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Almost none of them.
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When you appreciate the length of the journey, you re much, much better equipped to make good decisions along the way.
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Partly to relax, it doesn t have to all happen by Tuesday, but also to really appreciate you ve gotta position yourself
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victory that may be a little bit further down the road there stuff you can totally do right now but it s with a view to making sure that you re still in the game and competing and doing terrifically well, further on down the road so most people message they think short term and they make some bad strategy choices as a result.
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Yeah, I can see that being very, very common, right?
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You think, well, okay, I m only gonna be here for a few years, or I m not sure how long this is, or even just short-sighted, soft-skilled decision-making, like maybe, so what, I don t like this employer, I can burn this bridge, or I ll never have to deal with this person again.
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It s just so unlikely, given how long the span of a career really is.
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there s almost certainty that you re gonna run into some of those same people again, and it just gets you thinking about, instead of next quarter, the next decade, what you re doing now, how that s going to build up and lead to something else, rather than making short-term sacrifice, or like you said, the sprint, or short-term negative decision-making, something that you know is a bad idea, but will get you a one leg up for the short, foreseeable future.
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Exactly right.
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So I don t expect anybody to have like a 40-year plan, that s crazy.
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When you appreciate that the whole journey is out there it s a really long trip you do start to make different decisions along the way and you do.
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better prepare yourself for the long ride ahead.
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So question number two, very quickly, what percentage of your personal wealth do you think you ll accumulate after your 40th birthday?
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And I just encourage people, just guess the percentages at 30 or 50 or 70 or 10 or something else.
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And the answer for the average person in America, almost 90% of their personal wealth is accumulated after their 40th birthday.
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And most people totally miss it.
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They think that more than half is accumulated in the first half.
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And it s very, very back-end loaded.
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And partly, remember, question one, how many years of career do you have after your 40th birthday?
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22, 24, 27, 29, 30?
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You ve got a lot of years of career after your 40th birthday.
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They tend to be all the big ones.
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You also tend to have accumulated some savings, so wealth accumulation is very, very back-end loaded.
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And the relevance of that is, once again, like the marathon runner, you need to position yourself to succeed in your 40s and 50s and 60s and maybe even beyond.
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And so you need to do some things early on in your career to equip yourself and prepare yourself for that big second half along the way.
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Yeah, and I want to get into what those things are.
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I just want to say this was hugely relieving for me as a small business owner that there s much, much more on the back end because you just work so damn hard when you run your own company.
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You just feel like no matter, I m sure no matter what I was compensated, I d feel like I was working too hard.
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I think for people that are in careers right now, a lot of folks that come through Art of Charm, our live programs and things like that, they come in to get clarity on the future and I ll tell you, a lot of the guys in their 30s and early 40s, I don t want to use the word crisis because it sounds too dramatic, but they re coming to this kind of realization that
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uh-oh, some of the things that I m supposed to be doing in order to get that back-end load, that career juice in the second half, maybe some of those things aren t in place, and they start to try to make up for lost time, which is very difficult to do, I would imagine.
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Yeah, I mean, you can sort of change the vector of your career along the way.
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But once again, you know, to use the marathon thing, if you ve done things early on, you ve managed your pacing, you ve managed your nourishment, you got your energy in the right place, you re positioning yourself to do well in the second half.
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So there s lots and lots of things you can do to set yourself up for success along the way.
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So let s talk about it.
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Well, I think a lot of us are familiar with the Malcolm Gladwell quote, it takes, you know, about 10,000 hours to really master something.
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And in my own experience, I agree.
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I ve seen it happen with all kinds of skill sets in a career context.
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But let s remember what that is.
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What is 10,000 hours?
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10,000 hours is basically doing something almost every day, every week of the year for like five years.
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So when people say, you know, I ve done this assignment for 10 months and I ve really kind of mastered it, I call them out on it.
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I go, you haven t mastered it because it doesn t matter how talented you are.
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You ve got to put in your hours to not be okay at it, not to dabble at it, but careers are often propelled by real mastery and expertise.
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And really becoming a go to person that s when you start to create some momentum and what i refer to as fuel so again, even if you re super talented i discourage people from doing things a little one and two year.
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Shots stretch them out a little bit into more meaningful.
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accountable chapters, and make sure you re building towards something, to master something, and it could easily take 10,000 hours along the way.
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So with the 10,000 hours though, should we then worry about whether or not we are developing the right kind of skills?
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Because anybody can dive headlong into something that maybe only works in a certain narrow career silo.
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It might not be so good to spend time mastering those types of skills.
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Excellent point i really encourage people to create transportable skills.
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There s so much uncertainty about companies and industries and jobs changing you need to equip yourself in this forty five year journey to be able to move around.
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industry to industry, company to company, and I encourage the development of transportable skills, things you can carry with you, mastery and expertise that isn t only applicable in one very specific job situation.
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So the best kinds of masteries are often these transportable skills and experiences that you can carry with you from one place to another.
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Okay, I wanna dive into that a little bit later and maybe flesh that out, but let s keep going with the five questions.
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Very quickly, question four, I ask people how many contacts do they have?
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You know, a combination of Facebook friends and LinkedIn connections, et cetera.
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And often people will quote me answers, you know, I got 1,000, I got 500, 800, 4,000, 2,000, whatever, which is great.
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I really encourage people to have lots of connections.
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but it s not sufficient, because the next question I ask is just a guess.
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How many people do you think you will meet in career heaven?
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Which means looking back after this big, long ride, when people look back at their retirement parties and stuff, do they comment on the people who ve really made a difference?
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And here s something I guarantee, they do not say,
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Looking back, I d like to thank my 1,356 LinkedIn connections.
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What they do say is, you know what, there s two people, there s three people, there s four people, it s some number you can always count on the fingers of one hand.
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And the relevance and the contrast between question four, which is raw connections, and question five, which is the people that really make a difference to you, is that it s a quality game, not a volume game.
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So when people come to me and say, I m maxing out on my connections, and my Facebook friend s job is done, the job is not done.
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You need to get a higher quality, deeper relationship
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with a handful of people, they re the ones who will really make a difference over your long career.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
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I mean, that s one of the main core skills at AOC here that we teach both through the show and our live programs is creating deep, enduring relationships and getting those champions.
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And I wanna blend this then into the career fuel, transportable skills, relationships, among other things in there.
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Let s deep dive into each one of these because I think building the career fuel is where
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a lot of us tend to stagnate, of course, because a lot of us are in the first stage of the career where we re building this.
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And can you give us a ballpark of what age group we re looking at when we re talking about building career fuel?
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I mean, I assume at some level you re building it throughout your entire career, but is it stacked more towards the beginning?
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It seems like it would be.
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So, career fuel is
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what makes a difference to me between the leaders and the highly successful people over a long career compared to the rest of them.
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And career fuel, you have to build it throughout your entire career, but it definitely is front-end loaded.
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That first 15 years in particular, I encourage people, if you can end up
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that first 15 years, decade, 15 years, with a full tank of really abundant and diverse forms of career fuel, you re doing great.
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You are positioning yourself to reach high and go far further down the road.
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So let me just describe, there s three principal kinds of career fuel.
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Number one is what I refer to as transportable skills.
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And once again, these are the skills you can carry with you from job to job and industry to industry, country to country.
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And these are basics, like can you solve a problem?
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Are you a persuasive communicator?
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Do you know how to get things done?
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Do you know how to take intelligent risks?
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So it s not technical stuff and jargon stuff or things that can work in one company.
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But if you re building these great transportable skills, you re off to a great start.
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And as you say, build them early and then later on you can refresh them and sharpen them and add them.
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But stage one should be really devoted to building this kind of fuel.
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It s a fantastic start.
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Now, back to the show.
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Let s talk about types of transportable skills, because this is where the concern arises for me.
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Looking back on it, this was one of the major realizations I came to when working on Wall Street, because I didn t even realize that a lot of transportable skills even existed.
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And tell me what you think of this, Ryan, because I was working there, and I was plowing through legal documents, and doing what everybody told me to do, and going to meetings, and trying to take notes when they gave lectures, and all that stuff was extremely boring for the most part, although I was, I suppose, learning something about the job.
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But when I finally had asked Dave, the partner that hired me, and this is sort of my origin story that everyone s heard a million times, he told me that he,
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He wasn t billing hours, he was generating relationships and therefore generating business.
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That was something that expanded my mind and told me that there was a third path, because in my mind there was work hard, get to the top, or be smarter than everybody, get to the top.
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I didn t realize there was even the ability to create networks and mentors and champions and build soft skills.
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I just had no idea that even existed.
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So I think a lot of people might fall into the trap if they realize that transportable skills even exist, they might only think, okay, I need to get really good at coding and Java, that s a transportable skill.
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Okay, I really need to learn accounting practices, that s a transportable skill.
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That may be true, but are there soft skills in addition to some of these other transportable skills?
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Absolutely, so persuasive communication is a fantastic companion to hard skills
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that will differentiate you for a lifetime.
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So, can you write a bit?
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Could you do a two-minute YouTube video that 10,000 people would view?
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Are you persuasive when you walk into a room and five or 10 minutes later you move somebody from one point of view to another?
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So the whole persuasion and communications is one.
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The whole area of intelligence quotient and EQ and emotional intelligence is massively powerful.
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and most people kind of miss it.
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They spend more time on some technical calculation or understanding the jargon and miss the ability to read a room, the ability to reassure people, the ability to build trust.
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These are incredibly powerful long-term skills.
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Another one that totally separates the best, best leaders I ve ever met from the others is becoming a talent magnet.
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And we know people who are the smartest people in the room, but they don t carry other people with them.
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For some reason, they don t seem to be able to hire or develop or retain other high performing talent.
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And I look across our industry and in my own career and other people I really respect.
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really top people are magnets.
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They bring people into the company.
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People want to work for them.
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It s something I call the eBay factor, which is if some talented person were given a chance to work with you, who would bid for you?
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Who wants to work with you?
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Talented people have tons of choices.
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Do they want to work for you?
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And that s a massive bit of fuel that can be developed.
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a soft skill as you describe it, but it s extremely differentiating because people who have talent magnetism, their own excellence is magnified over and over and over again.
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And whether the people who grow under these talent magnets stay exactly in that department or that part of the company, they ll go off and create excellence somewhere else.
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And it s a terrific one, so that s one that a little bit later in life I discovered, but I encourage everybody, your first couple of hires, the first couple of people that are working for you, really develop them.
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And make sure that you re a magnet and amplifying their power and your power as well.
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I mean, this is the thought behind a lot of the bells and whistles you see at Silicon Valley workplaces, where the salaries are great, but also there s this fun thing, and there s that fun thing, and you get access to this, and it s got this cultural thing that appeals to a certain type of person, because now the economy has become such that literally there s not enough money to keep giving people to work at certain companies because it loses its marginal value, and real talent is looking for more.
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Beyond slides and margarita Wednesdays or whatever, I think what you re maybe saying here is, it s much better to work with somebody who s got a powerful vision that really gives your work purpose, and they can bring those people with them, versus just trying to retain talent with a paycheck.
2
SPEAKER_03
or worse, burning your talent out and then losing a bunch of people because maybe you can t keep a magnet, but one left your company and took the entire XYZ department along with it.
2
SPEAKER_03
I think that s something that I see here in Silicon Valley, and I d love to learn more about what makes someone a magnet or how we can make ourselves a magnet, because when I look at the soft skills that we mentioned before, a lot of workplaces aren t really teaching this, but they are hiring for it,
2
SPEAKER_03
it s easier for many places to hire for it than to try to teach it, which is why Art of Charm live programs exist in the first place.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think some people are wired for it, but it is an acquirable, learnable skill.
2
SPEAKER_00
and it s partly just a sensitivity and the emotional intelligence to look at a job from the other end of the telescope.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you were 27 years old and highly ambitious with certain skill sets and expectations, would you want to work for you?
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s a tough question sometimes, and still the belief in the boss is the most decisive factor in whether somebody stays or not.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not money, it s the boss.
2
SPEAKER_00
and that s the inescapable truth about you as a leader, if you don t get this eBay factor and this talent magnetism, you re going to be lonely.
2
SPEAKER_00
You are not gonna amplify your power and your impact and your contribution to the organization, and it s a miss.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re not gonna be everything that you can be.
2
SPEAKER_00
So that s definitely, Jordan, one of these
2
SPEAKER_00
softer skills, but are incredibly useful and valuable in the course of a career.
2
SPEAKER_03
and we see this from some AOC alumni as well, they re maybe the only guy at their level that has an advanced knowledge or one of two or something at their level that has the ability to really perform in this area because it s something that people either develop over a long period of time or not at all.
2
SPEAKER_03
Very few go out and learn it and dedicate themselves to it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ask people in interviews, especially senior people who ve been around the track a little bit, tell me about your talent ledger.
2
SPEAKER_00
What do you mean?
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, tell me about the people
2
SPEAKER_00
that you hired, that you thought were terrific, where are they now, what did you do to develop them, did you hire them or did you inherit them, et cetera, et cetera.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then tell me about the people that didn t perform under you, what did you do?
2
SPEAKER_00
And this notion of talent ledger, in about five minutes, I know if this person cares about talent or not.
2
SPEAKER_00
Some people will say, oh, well, Jennifer and Raphael used to work for me.
2
SPEAKER_00
They become vice presidents in the company.
2
SPEAKER_00
One left the company to start up their own thing, but they re industry leaders.
2
SPEAKER_00
We stay in touch.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s a beautiful thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Other people go, gee, I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re dead because they don t have it.
2
SPEAKER_00
They don t care enough, and that is a trainable, learnable, and powerful skill.
2
SPEAKER_00
Jordan, there s one additional skill that s kind of counterintuitive.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s the ability to give and ask for help.
2
SPEAKER_00
And top leaders are fantastic at giving and asking for help.
2
SPEAKER_00
And a lot of people think that information and knowledge should be competitive and you don t give it away.
2
SPEAKER_00
And in my experience, and supported now by the work of Adam Grant and other people, the opposite is true.
3
SPEAKER_00
people who give knowledge away, who give access away, who give ideas away, can be happier and more competitively successful than others who don t.
3
SPEAKER_00
And a lot of times in an organization, I see someone who s a bit too narrow, a bit too closed,
3
SPEAKER_00
And they don t know how to ask for help and they don t know how to get other people to help them come up with better solutions.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the people who are more open source and more collaborative, I think, are winning with increasing frequency.
3
SPEAKER_00
So giving and asking for help is another counterintuitive one that s a great piece of fuel.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, this is something that I struggled with a lot, of course, in the beginning as well, and a lot of people do, because there s kind of different phases to learning how to network and create relationships, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
When you re first starting out, you re a kid, or at least emotionally so, and you re thinking, okay, where can I find people that can help me?
3
SPEAKER_01
And then there s another phase right after that where you realize the more you help other people, the more that stuff starts to come back to you.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you start helping other people a lot, and then somewhere in there,
3
SPEAKER_01
we go from only asking other people for help or never asking to helping tons of other people and never asking for help.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then it takes a little bit of a push to get us to kind of jump off the high dive and be able to ask those same people that we just spent so much time helping or creating relationships with for that same help.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I don t know why that happens.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think we re just afraid to undo all of our hard work of being of value to others.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I agree with you.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you don t ask for help, you re only working one side of the equation.
3
SPEAKER_01
and you re really kind of handicapping yourself for no reason.
3
SPEAKER_00
Ten times a week, even as the CEO with 30 years of experience under my belt, I write an email that starts with, I need your help.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I will ask very senior people, I will ask people outside our company, I will ask 25 year olds and 22 year olds.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is something I ve just learned that is incredibly valuable.
3
SPEAKER_00
I will ask for help, and very importantly, will offer to reciprocate.
3
SPEAKER_00
And often I ll prime the pump, I ll make the first move.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I need your help on topic X.
3
SPEAKER_00
here s something I ve been working on, thought this might be interesting or valuable to you, can you reciprocate with some area of expertise that you have?
3
SPEAKER_00
It is a fantastic skill set that I use to this day in a very two-way fashion.
3
SPEAKER_00
It works.
3
SPEAKER_01
What other types of career fuel are we talking about?
3
SPEAKER_01
There s transportable skills, we got that.
3
SPEAKER_01
What about other types of experiences or relationships?
3
SPEAKER_00
I m a big believer that acquiring meaningful experiences over the course of your career will kind of give you the inoculation and the vitamins so that your immune system, in a sense, is operating at a very high level.
3
SPEAKER_00
So here s what I mean.
3
SPEAKER_00
We could all stay in the classroom, we could study all these technical things, or we could put ourselves out there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Put ourselves outside our comfort zones.
3
SPEAKER_00
Go launch a product.
3
SPEAKER_00
Go host an event, go travel somewhere, take a risk, put yourself out on the line.
3
SPEAKER_00
Those meaningful experiences.
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you ve grown up in a corporate environment.
3
SPEAKER_00
Go work in the e-commerce division.
3
SPEAKER_00
Work big, work small, go to Bangalore.
3
SPEAKER_00
All of these things collectively boost our immune system.
3
SPEAKER_00
and make us less fragile because we re going to be attacked by change and adversity in the course of 40, 45 years.
3
SPEAKER_00
and you need to be not like a hothouse flower, you need to be robust and able to withstand and thrive on the other side.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I strongly encourage people, get out of your comfort zone, feel some flops wet.
3
SPEAKER_00
I love it when people put on a show or take some risks, take on a project that maybe is not a guaranteed success.
3
SPEAKER_00
and you will learn a ton and it will make you better equipped for the long haul.
3
SPEAKER_00
So meaningful experiences are great fuel as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
This jibes with my experience.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I traveled overseas, lived overseas a lot.
3
SPEAKER_01
You and I talked pre-show about traveling to places like Bhutan and North Korea and things like that, and I do agree that there s a lot here that employers commented on, but I never really knew if it was a hiring decision thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
I always just thought it was more of a novelty.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I can see why this would be important, because if you ve got people who ve done a whole bunch of different things, they re going to be able to innovate better generally, depending on what you re looking for.
3
SPEAKER_01
They re going to be able to adapt better
3
SPEAKER_01
And also, apropos our earlier conversation, which I thought was kind of almost like a joke at first, worrying about whether you re going to be replaced by a robot, the odds decrease the better you are at certain tasks, of course, but also the more wide your experience as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that sounds like a silly concern right now, but if you write code in a certain programming language all day and you haven t learned something newer or modern, it is very realistic that you could be replaced by something that automates large parts of what you do.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s no question.
3
SPEAKER_00
And in genetics, there s the notion of hybrid vigor, where the introduction of these outside mutant genes and other genetic material makes you more robust and makes you more able to withstand bad news and bad conditions and thrive in different conditions.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the same is absolutely true in the career context.
3
SPEAKER_00
A buddy of mine is the head of all talent at WPP.
3
SPEAKER_00
which is this massive 200,000 person marketing services company.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s the parent company of my company, Ogilvy One.
3
SPEAKER_00
And this fellow, Mark Leina, when he s looking at senior people, he looks for different types of experiences.
3
SPEAKER_00
He asks, has this person started up something?
3
SPEAKER_00
Has this person taken something established and made it better?
3
SPEAKER_00
Has this person taken a crappy, struggling business
3
SPEAKER_00
and improved it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So he s looking in a sense for meaningful experiences and this notion of hybrid vigor because those kinds of leaders are so much better equipped to deal with change and adversity.
3
SPEAKER_01
Last but definitely not least, especially as far as Art of Charm is concerned, career fuel, enduring relationships, and you d hinted at this before, let s talk about relationships, because it s easy for me to say these things are important, they re important in your career, they re important in your life, and people, I hope, generally believe that or they wouldn t listen, but it s great to hear from somebody at the top looking down and saying, okay, this is one of the major keys, because I think a lot of people, even what they hear on the show, they still think,
3
SPEAKER_01
I can figure this out later.
3
SPEAKER_01
I can work on that later.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right now I ve got to work on this aspect of my business, that element of my funnel or my business, and they really rarely do sit down and focus on these enduring relationships, and I think to their detriment.
3
SPEAKER_01
People who let this go by the wayside always find that it becomes a problem.
3
SPEAKER_00
I would say that enduring relationships is probably the most powerful form of career fuel, and especially the enduring ones.
3
SPEAKER_00
There are a few really, really powerful ones that have lasting impact.
3
SPEAKER_00
Honestly, it s not something to wait till you re 40 or wait till you re 50 or wait till you re whenever.
3
SPEAKER_00
You can start building
3
SPEAKER_00
this ecosystem of relationships in your career, you can start it on day one, you can actually start it even before you start work.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s this notion that you have not just one kind of person, as I say, it s not just how many LinkedIn connections you have or do I have a mentor.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s this ecosystem of people that lives and breathes and grows with you and helps you propel you along the way.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I describe in the book, there s a number of different levels.
3
SPEAKER_00
Again, there s these raw connections, and they re great, but there s a next level up, what I call the community of experts.
3
SPEAKER_00
And these are people, again, that you can go to to get really good answers.
3
SPEAKER_00
So maybe you know somebody who s a finance wizard and another person who s awesome in sales, and another person who has real sensitivity around creative or artistic topics, and someone else knows a particular coding language, et cetera.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s this small and growing group of people, a community of experts, who can help you come up with better answers.
3
SPEAKER_00
The next level up is what I call critical colleagues.
3
SPEAKER_00
And this is maybe like the 10 people who would make a big difference in your current job situation.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the obvious one is the boss.
3
SPEAKER_00
Who s your immediate boss?
3
SPEAKER_00
And what kind of a relationship do you have with that boss?
3
SPEAKER_00
Do they think you re an idiot?
3
SPEAKER_00
Do they think you re a genius?
3
SPEAKER_00
Do they think you re lazy but smart?
3
SPEAKER_00
Do they think you re dumb but hardworking?
3
SPEAKER_00
What s your relationship with the boss?
3
SPEAKER_00
But there s other ones.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, what does the boss s boss think of you?
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe the boss s boss doesn t know anything about you, but you spilled chicken
4
SPEAKER_00
and soup all over them in the elevator, when your boss goes to promote you or give you a raise, he s gonna ask his boss for an opinion, and you wanna make sure that it s neutral, if not quite positive.
4
SPEAKER_01
How do we do that?
4
SPEAKER_01
Because it might be hard to even gain access to our boss s boss, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Maybe they don t know who we are because we never talk with them.
4
SPEAKER_00
I encourage you to be patient.
4
SPEAKER_00
I wouldn t promote yourself shamelessly on the boss s Facebook page.
4
SPEAKER_00
But why don t you go to your boss and say, what s important to his boss?
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, he s really worried about, you know, connecting with millennials with our new consumer product.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, well, I m a millennial.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ll tell you what, can you give me 30 days and I would like to with you go to
4
SPEAKER_00
that guy, that boss, that woman above you, and do a five minute presentation on how to connect that new consumer product with millennials.
4
SPEAKER_00
And in the next month, do your homework.
4
SPEAKER_00
study tons of authoritative sources, do some original research, do some thinking, create a five-minute presentation, rehearse it, time it, so that one day, at the right timing, the appropriate moment, your boss goes with you and says, I wanna introduce Jordan to you, and you know that thing you d be worried about?
4
SPEAKER_00
If you give Jordan five minutes, he s got something to say.
4
SPEAKER_00
you can create that opportunity, but don t do it if all you have is unsubstantiated opinions.
4
SPEAKER_00
Go there with a totally rehearsed, prepared, brief, concise presentation.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s the way to get
4
SPEAKER_00
equity with your boss, and I see it happening all the time.
4
SPEAKER_00
I have people here in our company who come to me with really, really high-quality brief content, and it changes my opinion of them, so you can do it.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is really good, because I think a lot of folks know, yeah, okay, getting good with my boss and my boss s boss, yeah, check, but how do I make it happen?
4
SPEAKER_01
I think looking at a problem that they re having, which you can figure out by asking your immediate boss, and then figuring out proposals for solutions, potential solutions, or even just a presentation based on the problem itself to show that you really understand it, seems like a really big potential win.
4
SPEAKER_01
Nobody else is doing that.
4
SPEAKER_00
No, and it might not work fabulously the first time.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m telling you, those are like mini examples of mastery.
4
SPEAKER_00
Quote the sources.
4
SPEAKER_00
Corroborate your sources.
4
SPEAKER_00
Don t just make stuff up and give them opinions.
4
SPEAKER_00
Really do a thorough job.
4
SPEAKER_00
Rehearse, check it out, buff it up, and find your five minutes and try it out.
4
SPEAKER_00
And people have found it very, very successful at differentiating themselves, but in a positive way based on substance,
4
SPEAKER_00
and communication skills, not just, oh, I bumped into the boss and had a nice chat with him in the cafeteria.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s okay, that s nice light-duty social stuff.
4
SPEAKER_00
Put your hand up to volunteer for an assignment.
4
SPEAKER_00
Hey, there s a new not-for-profit thing going on.
4
SPEAKER_00
Put your hand up.
4
SPEAKER_00
do a great job, package up your knowledge, and you ll get a little bit of air time, but with you where you can actually perform, as opposed to sitting in a big room with 25 people, and you put your hand up and ask an ill-prepared or ill-advised question, that s not gonna help you get equity with the boss s boss.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I would imagine.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s an opportunity for you to look good or bad if you blow it, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, usually bad, because the boss probably has 10 or 20 years of experience, and you are super wickedly smart, and you have a year or two.
4
SPEAKER_00
Somebody s probably tried your opinion before, and or you don t quite yet have the authority, but if you go away for 30 days and chew on that topic, best sources, ask your friends, phone a lifeline,
4
SPEAKER_00
et cetera, et cetera, you re gonna have a quality product, and at least you ve got a credible little bit of mastery that you can put in front of them and go, you know what, I don t agree with everything you say, that s pretty good.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, let me try something else on you.
4
SPEAKER_00
What about, how do I sell to people in China?
4
SPEAKER_00
and so on, you get the picture, you can build from that.
4
SPEAKER_01
Anything that gets you more responsibility from higher ups is going to be good, generally, because if you become the go-to guy for these questions, that builds your career capital, and of course also the relationship with the people that you re working with as well.
4
SPEAKER_01
What about career reboots, like mothers coming back to the workforce, people who decided, I m sick of being a telecom engineer, I m going into the legal field, or whatever.
4
SPEAKER_01
Where can we start to use these techniques, and not just for college kids with no experience, where do we start to apply this to everyone in careers, or people maybe just jumping back into one?
4
SPEAKER_00
So this notion of we have internships, but we also have tons of return ships, which is, you know, people trying to get back in, especially in technology businesses.
4
SPEAKER_00
So often people in the workplace, a lot of it is women who have gone away to have families.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then five years later, four years later, they come back in and the technology has changed.
4
SPEAKER_00
and I spent a lot of time talking with people that successfully reentered and found that there were sort of four things to think about if you re returning into the workplace.
4
SPEAKER_00
Number one is to reframe your experience.
4
SPEAKER_00
So even if you haven t done exactly the new thing, if you haven t worked in that exact industry, reframe your experience so that at least you can say you ve worked on analogous projects.
4
SPEAKER_00
So let s say you haven t worked exactly
4
SPEAKER_00
In the agile method with a particular coding language find the thing that you ve done that s closest to it or is analogous a lot of people for example they work in let s say direct marketing which is a relatively older term.
4
SPEAKER_00
The new way of expressing it is programmatic marketing or performance marketing so don t say i did direct marketing for ten years.
4
SPEAKER_00
Say i ve been working on early forms of programmatic marketing and performance marketing so you frame your experience in the language of.
4
SPEAKER_00
today and the language of the future.
4
SPEAKER_00
And once again, if I were to reframe experience, I would do 30 days of homework, not about questions on how I should defend my own career from 10 years ago.
4
SPEAKER_00
I would go and look at white papers on the future of the industry that I m trying to get into.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I would spend time saying, here s what I know with some fundamental principles, but I m going to do it to help your business in this industry succeed in the future.
4
SPEAKER_00
So really think of reframing your past into the future.
4
SPEAKER_00
Don t just talk about your past and apologize that your skills are rusty, not good enough.
4
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, so you need to bring something credibly from the past into the future.
4
SPEAKER_00
A lot of it does have to do with language.
4
SPEAKER_00
Again, frame it in the language of the future, not in the language of the past.
4
SPEAKER_00
Number two is you actually have to go right into your fuel, especially your hard skills, and refresh them.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s why something like a return ship or maybe you got a structured program you can do some online learning you can do some night classes you can get some mentorship you can t fake it you got a picture skills.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so programs like yours programs like general assembly which have very practical forward thinking skill set building.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, you gotta refresh some skill sets.
4
SPEAKER_00
You can t just fake it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Point number three is to reconnect your social networks.
4
SPEAKER_00
When you walk away.
4
SPEAKER_00
We talked about these career ecosystems.
4
SPEAKER_00
Your career ecosystems get tired, they get dormant, they lose energy.
4
SPEAKER_00
So get back into, kind of at every level, get back into it with refreshing who your experts are.
4
SPEAKER_00
Obviously your social profile and LinkedIn profile, a lot of people just walk in and in quotes, my Rolodex is old, and they re dead.
4
SPEAKER_00
Refresh it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Go back and reactivate some old relationships.
4
SPEAKER_00
Find some new ones.
4
SPEAKER_00
Another great thing about joining maybe some industry associations of the current and future industry and find some new people not just people from you know five ten years ago the final thing is to reboot and that has to do with your self confidence, so many people when they leave the industry to come back to heal out of it they don t fit.
4
SPEAKER_00
They feel rusty and you just need to build back your confidence.
4
SPEAKER_00
One of the great ways is frankly surround yourself with a lot of bright young people who are, you know, people who are doing well in the current industry and of the future.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I encourage people to get their confidence going.
4
SPEAKER_00
They have tons to give and maybe they have tons to give to this high
5
SPEAKER_00
that new up-and-coming generation, and in return, that next generation can refresh them, make them more modern, make them more up-to-date.
5
SPEAKER_00
So those are four things, reframe, refresh, reconnect, and reboot, a strong strategy for getting back into the game.
5
SPEAKER_01
And what about the career inventory, this kind of annual size-up?
5
SPEAKER_01
I really like that.
5
SPEAKER_01
Before we let you go, would you tell us how we can do that and why it s important?
5
SPEAKER_00
I really encourage people to take at least one day a year and really reflect on what happened in the previous year.
5
SPEAKER_00
take stock of what s going on with them currently and to take a look ahead.
5
SPEAKER_00
And again, we work for thousands of hours a year and we get all this education, but we so infrequently take time out for ourselves.
5
SPEAKER_00
So in a career day or a half a day, even I would do one of these inventories, which is taking stock of my fuel levels, transportable skills,
5
SPEAKER_00
meaningful experiences, and enduring relationships, that notion of a career ecosystem.
5
SPEAKER_00
Where do I stand this year?
5
SPEAKER_00
Did I learn some new stuff?
5
SPEAKER_00
Did I bring some new things on?
5
SPEAKER_00
Maybe some of my great historical skills have gotten rusty.
5
SPEAKER_00
Just really take stock and look at them.
5
SPEAKER_00
The career ecosystem, you totally have to look at it at least once a year.
5
SPEAKER_00
Who are the new people who are coming in?
5
SPEAKER_00
Have you lost a mentor or a great boss or a champion?
5
SPEAKER_00
Maybe your relationships have eroded or diminished a bit or maybe they re really turbocharged.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s great to know.
5
SPEAKER_00
So that s point number one is to do that ecosystem and fuel inventory.
5
SPEAKER_00
The other thing is there s four great questions to ask.
5
SPEAKER_00
Number one, am I learning?
5
SPEAKER_00
Did I learn new skills this year?
5
SPEAKER_00
Number two, am I having impact?
5
SPEAKER_00
on individuals, on my team, maybe on society at large.
5
SPEAKER_00
Question number three, am I having fun?
5
SPEAKER_00
We work so hard, it s gotta be fun, mainly because fun keeps our energy levels up.
5
SPEAKER_00
And question number four, am I being fairly rewarded?
5
SPEAKER_00
And I encourage people, just take those four
5
SPEAKER_00
put your feet up, maybe give yourself a score of 10 on each of those.
5
SPEAKER_00
From year to year, sometimes people weight those four questions differently.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like early on, I encourage people, kind of overweight that learning one, because that s again, accumulating lots of fuel.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because early on in your career, if you re getting a lousy score on am I learning, that s not a good thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
even if you re making good money, it s fun, it s whatever, that s all fine.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you re not learning, you re going to have a problem down the road.
5
SPEAKER_00
So take a look at those four questions.
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You can weight them equally or dial them up or down and give yourself a score and just ask yourself, next year, what do I aspire to do and what kinds of actions am I gonna take?
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How do I dial up the learning component?
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How do I look, maybe I m hungry for more impact?
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and you can sign up inside or outside of work for some kind of activity, not-for-profit thing, a community-based thing, spiritual, faith-based, whatever you want, that you feel like you re getting more impact.
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You can look at the rewards thing.
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It s not whether you re maxing out on rewards, it s am I being fairly compensated for my contribution and does it seem to be building in a decent way?
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So each of these questions can inspire you to take a serious look at the year behind, the year ahead, and to take some constructive action.
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Thank you so much.
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Is there anything else that I haven t asked you that you wanna make sure you deliver?
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Really, the main message, Jordan, is there s so much career anxiety going on.
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There s so many choices, more than we ve ever seen before.
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There s so much competition at home and abroad.
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There s so many voices and opinions going on.
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I d really encourage people, take this long view, build some fuel, take time out so that you get a career day for yourself.
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Look at how you re spending your time and making sure that ultimately you re feeling productive and you re feeling happy so that you can turn your anxiety into some constructive action.
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It s a long, long ride and you gotta get the most out of it because it s so long and such a big part of life.
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Brian, thank you so much.
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This has been excellent for both people that are just starting their career as well as those who ve been in it for a while.
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I love the idea of taking that inventory and making sure that we ve got the right kinds of fuel together if we re in that stage of the career as well.
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And the book, The Long View, has
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much more like this for every stage of every career.
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So if you think, well, maybe this isn t for me because I ve been working for a while or I m already 20 years in the game, I would say think again and take a look at this book.
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There s a lot of wisdom in there.
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And when I plod through it, I was very pleasantly surprised by a lot of the things that I read, some of which are contained here in the show and a lot more in the book.
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So thank you so much for your wisdom, both in the book and on the show today.
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Thank you so much, Jordan.
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Best of luck to you and your listeners as well.
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A lot of good stuff in this one.
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I really like the concepts of career fuel.
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Obviously, I m a sucker for anything that involves making relationships and networking part of your career or part of your daily habits.
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I m all about that, as well as transportable skills in these career inventories.
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Can be super useful for us if we actually put them into action.
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Not a lot of extra work, just the same amount of energy, probably, that you re putting into your career now, only focused in the right direction.
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If you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Brian on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes, as well as the other resources mentioned on the show, including the book, The Long View, Career Strategies to Help You Start Strong, Reach High, and Go Far.
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Now, of course, I m also on Twitter, at The Art of Charm.
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You can engage with me there.
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You can get some insights or punchy comments from me that might not appear anywhere else.
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Bootcamp and live program details.
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If you want to learn a lot of this stuff live from coaches, the networking stuff, the relationship development stuff, that s what we do here at our live program.
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Check it out at theartofcharm.com, and we re sold out a few months in advance, so if you re thinking about it a little bit, get in touch ASAP, get some info from us so you can plan ahead, and check out our social capital challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or if you re here in the States, you can text charmed, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
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It s all about improving your networking and your connection skills and inspiring those around you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you.
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We ll also email you that Fundamentals Toolbox I mentioned earlier on the show, and I ve got videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward in your career and at home and in your personal life, and those are coming out every week.
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It ll make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker.
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That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed here in the US to 33444.
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This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFilippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
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Show notes on the website are by Robert Fogarty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us, it s a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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So stay charming, and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.