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Because when we don t say what we feel, well then we start getting passive-aggressive with them, we start cracking jokes instead of saying what we really think and feel, and then it starts to create distance in the relationship.
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So to get tactical, that first step is to be transparent that you are feeling, thinking, sensing something before you act it out.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re talking with Jonathan Raymond, author of Good Authority.
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We re gonna talk not only about managers and management, that s something that I feel like you can get pretty much anywhere, but there are manager archetypes that are also employee archetypes, all of which essentially apply to all of us, no matter where we are, no matter what relationship that we re in.
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These types of archetypes help us slot people into categories that make them easier to work with, they make us easier to work with.
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We re gonna figure out how to deal with difficult situations and issues both at work and at home.
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So I really hope you enjoy the way that this clarifies a lot of the thinking involved with both management, managees, if that s a word.
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So I really hope you enjoy this episode with Jonathan Raymond.
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And by the way, if you re new to the show,
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We d love to send you some top episodes and the AOC toolbox where we discuss things like body language, charismatic nonverbal communication, attraction science, networking and influence strategies, mentorship, persuasion tactics, negotiation techniques, and everything else that we teach here at the Art of Charm.
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Check that out at theartofcharm.com and of course at theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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That s where the show notes are for this and all previous episodes of the show.
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Alright, here s Jonathan Raymond.
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Jonathan, thanks for coming on the show.
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Congratulations, first of all, on writing a short book.
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Thank you so much.
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Instead of a long one.
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Whenever I look at these books and they re like eight, 10 hours, I just think, what, you couldn t put in the time to edit it down?
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You almost never need that much time.
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Yeah, I had a friend when I was in law school and he said, if you can t say it in 10 pages, you got troubles.
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Yeah, and your book, I think, in audio format was, I don t know, four and a half hours, which is, at first I thought, oh, wow, there just must not be that much here.
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But the truth is, there s a lot there.
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It s just organized properly and you ve put a lot of thought into it.
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And so congratulations on that.
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And thank you for that on behalf of readers everywhere.
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Yeah, I ll pass that thank you on to my editor.
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I said, you know, shouldn t it be longer?
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And he said, no, it s brief and it s to its credit.
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Let s keep it there.
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Because I know publishers, they often want really long books.
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And the book was useful for me because most of us work someplace.
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And normally we don t do a lot of business and management stuff on AOC, but most of us work someplace, even if we work for ourselves.
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And the principles and archetypes of the different types of people and business help us see the matrix, so to speak, at work.
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And I like that because anything that helps us see the matrix more is very much AOC material.
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The connections between people, the way that you re perceived or control the connections.
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And I hate using words and phrases like pull the strings or manipulate because they have negative bias.
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However, whenever we are aware of things, we can start to control them and improve them more importantly.
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And I thought there was a lot of that in here.
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Yeah, one of the biggest things that I try to work with people at all levels is to be aware of the context of conversations.
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And there s a lot of great ideas out there, but mostly they fall down in practice because we don t know, well, how do I actually shift my tone of voice?
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How do I actually pivot a conversation so that I can give direct feedback without the person being defensive or the risk of them getting defensive?
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And that was what I was finding in my life.
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And I m not a business guy by background.
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I m a personal growth, spiritual seeker for 20 years who
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happen to be doing business by day.
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That was what s missing for me.
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It was like, oh yeah, that sounds great.
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Vision, values, brand, goals, all that stuff.
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How do I do it?
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What do I actually say to close the gap between how we re showing up as a team and who I want to be as a human being?
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You know, that comes across really apparently in the book, because you did work for the E-Myth, right?
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Which is like, that s pretty much as businessy as it gets.
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And whether we re managing or we re being managed, there s something to learn from this material.
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And it s funny to me, because at first, what informs the whole book, from my perspective, is you re a former lawyer, and you went to law school, and you came out, and you had to do something else.
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And I also went to law school,
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I m also very familiar with how that would ve gone for me, and I just feel like, wow, you would ve been one miserable SOB if you were a lawyer.
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I was, yeah.
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And I was very fortunate, you know, speaking of mentors, I had a guy who was, I didn t work that much for him, but I worked on a couple of projects with him and he took me aside one day and he said, Jonathan, he said, you re miserable here.
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I said, is it that obvious?
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And he said, yeah, you know, you re good at this and you know, maybe someday you d be great at it, but you re miserable.
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You should leave before you have a mortgage, before you re locked into this place, you know, look around, make sure this is the place you really want to be 10 years from now.
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And it was a short trip after that.
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That s really wise advice, because what people normally do is they slap on the golden handcuffs as fast as they can by getting a house, a boat, and starting a family, and then they go, what else do I want to do?
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Oh crap, I actually hate everything about my work life.
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and now I have bills and a lifestyle and I can t uproot my family.
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And as most of the people listening to this show who are single, especially the guys and girls who are in their 20s, it s so much easier to uproot yourself.
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I mean, I don t even have kids and I m thinking, oh, I can t move and redo my whole life.
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But when I was 29, 30, if you d told me, hey, look, tomorrow you have to move to Africa, I d have been like, cool, man, hold on, let me grab my laptop, I don t even need to go home.
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and throw my crap in a garbage bag or something, I ll get it when I get back.
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Why did you decide it was important to close the gap between personal and professional growth?
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Because that s a lot of what this book does.
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It kind of says, wait a minute, your personal life, your feelings, the way that you think about things, that s all actually more important to your work life than you realize, whereas we spend a lot of time learning in law school, for example, that nobody gives a crap about your feelings, it s just about the process,
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Everything else, you re just gonna have to shove that down.
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Don t let it get in the way of your career.
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Yeah, I think it comes back to something you said at the beginning, which is, I think we have to redefine what we mean by emotions and feelings.
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And I think, you know, a lot of times when people hear about, you know, we have to be more in touch with what we feel and what s going on for us in a professional environment, our initial assumption, this is kind of how we re societally conditioned, is we think, oh, it s about tissues in the corner crying and, you know, sharing your deepest, darkest secrets.
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And that s not really what it s about.
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It s about the context.
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When you walk into a meeting and you feel people disengaged, that s emotion happening in the room.
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That s the subtext or the matrix, as you called it before.
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That s an incredible life skill.
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And for me, it was sort of a curse I was born with, which is I can t walk into a room and not see those things.
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And whether it was the family I grew up in, which I love my folks, but we had our share of interpersonal and family dynamics, like all families do.
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But every time I got a job, whether it was my first job at the local park or
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When I started out as a lawyer, you know, it didn t matter how much I was making.
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I would walk into organizations and five employees, 500 didn t matter.
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I would say, what is going on here?
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Like, why are people acting this way?
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This is so strange.
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Why can t we just be real with each other?
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Why can t we be direct?
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Why can t we be honest?
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And it bugged me enough that I just couldn t let go of it.
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And so that s what started me on this journey to try to figure out and really feeling myself being split, you know, doing meditation, yoga, hardcore therapeutic practices, you know, anything and everything I could find anywhere I could find it to become my authentic self, whatever the heck that means.
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And at the same time, trying to pay the bills and then realizing, waking up one day and being like, wait, why are these two things?
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Shouldn t this be one thing?
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And what would that look like if it was?
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Integration of personal and work lives is seemingly the whole point of the book, but one of the things that struck me, and I want to challenge you on this and then sort of explore it, you ve mentioned the deepest purpose of a business is to change the lives of the people who work there.
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And there s a huge segment of people going, no, this purpose of a business is to make money so that you can survive and live your life.
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Why is the purpose of a business to change the lives of the people who work there instead of to change the lives of the customers
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or to create a great product for the world, et cetera.
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Thanks for bringing that up.
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You know, when I talk with managers and I talk with a lot of CEOs and business owners, if you get them in the corner and you really talk with them about the best moments of their day and the things that they really value, it s when they were able to improve the life of somebody who worked there.
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When, you know, the person who works for them was able to buy their first house or send their kids to college or, you know, whatever the thing was.
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And that there s a deep value that owners are usually very shy about talking about.
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It s sort of off limits, exactly as you said.
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Well, we re in this to make money.
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We re in this to make customers happy.
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And I think that there s something else going on.
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And when you have a personal conversation with business owners, as mostly what I do with my life, is you get to what really drives them.
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But beyond their own freedom and financial comfort, there s something deeper going on there.
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They want to have an impact on the lives of the people around them.
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And the lives of the people around them are their employees more than their customers.
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The customers are, of course, central to it.
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But a lot of times what I talk with business owners and executives and team leaders is why would there be a gap between the way you want to treat your customers and the way you treat your employees?
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Why would they be any different?
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Well, of course, you wouldn t want them to be any different.
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You d want them to feel cared for and seen and valued and respected and honored.
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And you want to have a huge impact on both of those groups of people.
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And that s the work we do.
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It seems like this is kind
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counterintuitive at first, but then eventually makes sense.
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I mean, the most rewarding part of running AOC is, of course, changing the lives of the customers and the guys that come to our workshops and boot camps.
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However, the fact of the matter is, I ve got a really cool team of people working here, working with me.
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We get to go do cool stuff.
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We get to experience the joy of changing our customers  lives together in a lot of ways.
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We get to interview interesting people.
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read interesting content, that part in many ways more rewarding simply because it s more consistent and of course it s deeper than a week long program.
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This is a decade long, so far and counting, business that constantly those relationships are being nurtured.
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So at first it s kind of like, I roll, what a woo woo, stupid spiritual concept, this guy clearly shouldn t be running a business, and then you re like, well wait a minute, I don t know of many
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Owners that would disagree with this if they think about it for a little while, except for maybe like the most hardcore, the top 10 in the worst places to work in America list or something, right?
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You see those where it s like the CEO fired the guy because he wouldn t pay for his own hotel room because it was a snow day.
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And you re just like, okay, that guy doesn t care.
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But every other company, they do value the team, not just because it s making profit, but because, man, this is your tribe.
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We re doing this together.
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If you don t care about them, well, you re probably one miserable son of a gun at that point.
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Yeah, and I didn t do it.
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I did it because it s what I believe, but I also know that it s a provocative statement.
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I think it s needed because we have to shift so much of this incredibly noisy, mostly cheesy,
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you know, click here by this industry in leadership and coaching, you know, most of it, it s very owner focused, right?
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It s very outside in.
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It s about the company and its values and its visions and its goals.
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People don t care.
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Employees don t care about the company values, the company visions and the company goals, except in a secondary way.
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They want to know, not in a selfish way, but in a healthy, self-interested way, what s in it for me?
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How am I going to get to my goals by working here?
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How am I going to become more of who I want to be?
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What s my role in this process where I get to have an impact that I want to have?
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And if you re not creating a culture like that in this modern work environment, you re sunk.
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I mean, unless you have a really captive workforce, and I wouldn t want to work there if you do have that kind of a place, you re sunk.
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And everybody knows this, right?
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Everybody knows this now.
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You have to be thinking about how do you create a workplace that gives personal meaning to the people who work there?
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I think it s extremely important, but I gotta ask you, look, if I ve been leading one way for a long time, can t it cause issues if I just suddenly change the way I do things?
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Is that not gonna confuse the crap out of everybody and possibly backfire?
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Well, there s a way to do it with transparency and with vulnerability.
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And a lot of times we re very good at kind of making New Year s resolutions, right?
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Especially as Americans, I think.
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But we re very good at the like, from now on, I m only going to do it this way.
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And of course, that always backfires on us.
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But there are small steps.
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And a lot of the work that I try to do with leaders
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is to have them break it up and say, look, hey, guys, you know, this is something that is important to me and I want to make a more meaningful place to work.
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I want to change some of the things that I hear.
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Like I hear the gossip.
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I see the infighting.
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I see people kind of going into their silos.
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I know that that s happening and I want to change it.
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I don t exactly know how yet, but I want to be in conversation with you about it.
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Those are the kind of conversations where your employees will perk up and go, whoa, they just did something different.
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There s something else going on here.
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I want to be a part of that conversation.
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Well, let s talk about some of the other side of the conversation, right?
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Those being lead, I suppose.
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Some of the concepts really, of course, apply to both sides of the coin, but I really do enjoy some of the employee engagement myths and things like that, but I want to jump down and talk about micro behaviors, because I just thought that was a cool concept.
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What are micro behaviors, and why is this important?
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So the micro behaviors are all the little things that we observe.
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And it could be in personal relationships, too, right?
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They re the things that we see people do that we mostly don t say anything about, right?
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The way people relate with time, they re always late, or, you know, the way that they play it safe in certain situations, or they don t speak up when
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somebody s acting in an abusive or sort of heavy-handed way with them.
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The little, the tones of voice, the shift, the way people move their physical body, the way that they respond, the way they crack jokes to offset anxiety, all the little things that we do as human beings to deal with our crazy emotional world.
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and the overwhelming amount of data that surrounds us.
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As managers, you see it all the time.
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You see it as employees too, right?
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You see it with your peers, you see it with your friends.
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And I believe it s our responsibility to share with the people around us what we see.
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So if we see somebody who s perpetually late for things, right?
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If we see somebody who struggles with speaking up to their boss and doesn t know how to challenge authority in a respectful way, to be able to point it out to them and say, hey, can I share something with you?
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I was just sitting next to you in that meeting.
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And I know you have a strong opinion about that subject.
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And I was just curious, why don t you say something?
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And being able to have the people around us see us and say, hey, I see you, I know something about you, or at least I think I do.
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And I think that there s a stretch point that you want, that you want to become a better version of yourself.
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I d love to help you get there.
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And so the micro behaviors, you know, a lot of the book is focused on how do you do that as a leader?
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But we can do this for our friends.
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We should be doing this for our friends and our loved ones.
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If somebody s constantly late for appointments with me, I m going to say something, right?
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If I have a vendor who every time I point out a mistake, if I do it kindly, they say, oh, yeah, sorry, it won t happen again.
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And it happens over and over again.
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I m going to say something.
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I m going to say, you know.
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It s a little bit frustrating because, you know, I feel like I m trying to be nice.
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I m trying to be compassionate here.
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I feel like I have to work too hard to keep this relationship going and that doesn t feel fair.
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So pointing out things around the things that we mostly overlook because it s not sexy.
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It s not sexy to talk to somebody about the way they
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use or abuse time.
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It s not sexy to talk with someone about how they don t know how to say, I don t know.
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But these are the things that when you do that, people go, wow, thank you so much for saying something.
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I really struggle with that.
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And I don t know how to get better at that.
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Do you have an idea?
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And we can add so much value in our personal relationships if we re willing to go small, if we get out of this mindset of these big picture leadership, vision, inspiration, positive thinking, all that stuff.
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It s not that it doesn t have value, but when you go small with somebody, you re so much more likely to succeed in connecting with them, building a closer relationship, and them having the feeling of like, wow, this person actually cares about me.
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Right, so we re kind of sweating the small stuff and making people better in little ways because at first look, that s kind of the easiest place to start.
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I mean, it doesn t really matter if you feel like, I m so fulfilled in my work, that will naturally be the case.
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Probably not if you re showing up 25 minutes late every day.
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That s just gonna be a symptom of a larger problem that s wrong.
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You can t really say, how do we get you fulfilled in your work without addressing the really obvious fact that, well, you re taking longer lunches than everybody, you re wandering in.
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Yeah, and that s exactly it.
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It s the doorway.
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It s not because time management and risk taking and keeping agreement.
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It s not that that s the end all be all.
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I m not making a religion out of that.
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But if those things are happening, you know there s something deeper, right?
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If somebody is always checking their phone in meetings, you know there s something else going on.
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So you use the micro behaviors and a lot of the scripts and tactics in the book is how do you talk to somebody about the little things in a way that leads to the bigger things?
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because those are the conversations that people really want to have, but they don t know how to have them.
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And so what I tried to do in the book is give people doorways into those deeper conversations.
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Can we do a tactical kind of breakdown of that?
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I mean, we can just pick one thing and maybe learn how to talk about it because it seems like
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Someone s going, oh my God, I totally need that.
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And then they re like, crap, okay, Amazon.com slash, right, let s give a real practical on how to have that.
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It could even be with somebody in your life that s late.
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It doesn t even have to be late for work.
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Just somebody who s late all the time and you go, what the hell?
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How do I handle this?
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My friend is always showing up late.
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I m starting to hate her for it.
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Exactly.
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So the first step, and this is the thing we mostly go over as human beings.
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So you just had an internal, you know, fictional example, but you had an internal emotional reaction being like, ah, I m starting to hate this person.
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This is so frustrating.
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The step that we mostly go over is the most important step, which is to find a way to say to that person, hey, you know, there s something that s been bugging me and it s been on my mind and I don t want to hold on to it because I care about our relationship.
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Can I share something with you?
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Any friend is going to be like, yeah, absolutely.
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What is on your mind?
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I want to know.
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And it s not the end of the world.
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But, you know, the last three or four times we hung out or we made plans, you re always late.
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And I feel like I m kind of sitting there at the restaurant or at the bar.
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And it s a little frustrating.
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And I feel like I don t know how to say this, but it s just like you don t really care or something else is going on.
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But I noticed that I ve been getting frustrated and I don t want to hold on to that because that s not good for our relationship.
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SPEAKER_00
It s just that first step, like providing context so that we can say what we feel without acting it out.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because when we don t say what we feel, well, then we start getting passive aggressive with them.
1
SPEAKER_00
We start cracking jokes instead of saying what we really think and feel.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then it starts to create distance in the relationship.
1
SPEAKER_00
So to get tactical, that first step is to be transparent that you are feeling, thinking, sensing something before you act it out.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I was going to say, you can do that with anything, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So whether that s with, you know, in the five buckets that I talked about in the book.
1
SPEAKER_00
So whether that s time management or if you see somebody playing it safe and, you know, somebody, I had an old friend who was constantly saying, you know, I m going to go start my own business.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m going to go
2
SPEAKER_02
start my own business.
2
SPEAKER_02
And every time he would say that, when he would get scared, he would go and take another corporate job.
2
SPEAKER_02
And at some point I said to him, I said, look, man, you know, we re friends.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, you know, we ve known each other for a really long time.
2
SPEAKER_02
I feel like I owe it to you to say something about this pattern.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, I feel like you re going to hate me for saying this, but
2
SPEAKER_02
Blank, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
And it s that being able to, instead of me complaining to my wife and saying like, oh, you know, every time I talk with Tom, he always says, blah, blah, blah, he never does anything.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m leaning into that relationship and finding a way, however inelegant, however challenging it may be.
2
SPEAKER_02
And maybe he gets defensive and storms out of the room and calls me a jerk and doesn t want to ever talk to me again.
2
SPEAKER_02
Okay, well then we weren t friends anyway.
2
SPEAKER_04
Right, yeah, no kidding.
2
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2
SPEAKER_04
Jason, you broke somebody of the habit of showing up late.
2
SPEAKER_04
You wanna tell that story?
2
SPEAKER_04
You had more of a passive-aggressive method to it.
2
SPEAKER_05
So, a buddy of mine would always show up five minutes late, period.
2
SPEAKER_05
I got tired of it.
2
SPEAKER_05
So, what I would do was show up 15 minutes late and say, well, you re never here on time, so I didn t think I needed to be here on time.
2
SPEAKER_05
I did that three times in a row, and every time I made a point of saying, you re never on time,
2
SPEAKER_05
I m going to show up a little bit late because I don t need to wait for you.
2
SPEAKER_05
After the third time, he shows up five minutes early to every single meeting we have.
2
SPEAKER_05
Period.
2
SPEAKER_05
Nice.
2
SPEAKER_05
Great.
2
SPEAKER_04
Maybe that s not the most like, I don t want to use the word mature, but maybe not the most like front face way to handle it.
2
SPEAKER_05
Come on, you re waiting like, you know, five minutes to walk into a movie.
2
SPEAKER_05
It s 20 degrees outside.
2
SPEAKER_05
You got a little motivation to make them show up on time because I m in the Midwest and it s cold.
2
SPEAKER_05
If I m waiting to go in to get my Indian on, I don t want to wait for my buffet.
2
SPEAKER_05
So you need to show up on time, brother.
2
SPEAKER_05
You don t want to wait for your.
2
SPEAKER_04
Well, look, DJ s own.
2
SPEAKER_04
I like the direct.
2
SPEAKER_04
talking about it confrontational without confronting sort of being confrontational method.
2
SPEAKER_04
I dig that.
2
SPEAKER_04
How would you call it?
2
SPEAKER_04
I mean, it s not really confrontational.
2
SPEAKER_04
It s just, like you said, leaning in, dealing with it straight on.
2
SPEAKER_04
There s no like, well, I m going to show him or not saying anything and then letting it bottle up.
2
SPEAKER_04
Like that seems
2
SPEAKER_04
like something we should do a lot, and we do this a lot with serious infractions, but you re right, we never really do it with the small things that make up the symptoms of the serious issues in the first place, which seems like an obvious and easy place to start.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and here s the problem, when we don t do that, a lot of times when I work with CEOs and HR leaders and employees, whatever your role is in whatever organization or if you re starting your own thing,
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, a lot of people say, well, I want to call you when I have my first employee or when I m, you know, and they don t realize you re building your culture now, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
If you have relationships, if you have a business, if you have one relationship, you have a culture, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
If it s just you, you have a culture.
2
SPEAKER_02
And if you start out in the beginning, if you do your math, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
If you add up all the times that you spend waiting around for other people.
2
SPEAKER_02
reworking stuff that they should have figured out for themselves, mediating interpersonal drama between two people who can t figure it out.
2
SPEAKER_02
If we just do some good math, it s just arithmetic, but, you know, adding all the time and energy that we spend managing around people who don t have their shit together, you d make some changes, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
By leaning into those small things, and it s so important in any organization, I don t care how many people or a family or a group of friends, this is what tears groups apart, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
We all want to belong.
2
SPEAKER_02
We want to feel part of something that s larger than ourselves.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it s not the big things that tear groups apart.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s the little things.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s the little infighting and the politics and, oh, well, you know, he said this.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s all the miscommunications that most of which could be cleared up in five seconds if people just develop some of these skills that we re talking about.
2
SPEAKER_05
And don t those little things just fester over time?
2
SPEAKER_05
Isn t that really the biggest problem?
2
SPEAKER_05
It s just like, oh, you know, the big things you can work out immediately, but those little things, it s just like, oh, last week he was just a little bit to the left on the post-it note on the presentation, and those things just kind of add up over time.
2
SPEAKER_05
So it s like, the little things I think really are just gnaw away at like termites.
2
SPEAKER_04
In any relationship, this stuff can go downhill until somebody gets stabbed because they left the cap off the toothpaste.
2
SPEAKER_04
It s a thing that happens whenever all these little things do not get addressed.
2
SPEAKER_04
It has to be.
2
SPEAKER_02
If you work for somebody, there s a way, a lot of the times when I coach people, if they say, look, my manager s not going to listen to any of this, and I don t have any power where I work, and I can t really say anything, and I challenge people on that all the time.
2
SPEAKER_02
You have a lot more power than you think,
2
SPEAKER_02
Look, if you can t afford to lose your paycheck and you re really strapped and you re feeling it s really unsafe to say something, I get it.
2
SPEAKER_02
We ve all been there.
2
SPEAKER_02
But if you have any kind of leeway where you work with the person, here s how I recommend approaching it, is to take personal ownership of your own growth.
2
SPEAKER_02
and don t wait for your manager, don t wait for your leader to bring this stuff to your attention, is you go to them and you say, you know, I m reading this cool stuff, I m listening to this awesome Art of Charm podcast, whatever you re, and I m really, I really wanna work on myself and I wanna make this year, this month, this week, I wanna make some concrete steps.
2
SPEAKER_02
You see me throughout the day, you know, like, what are you seeing?
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, what are some things that you think that I do?
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, I want you to not be afraid of offending me, like, maybe I ll get a little bit worried or whatever, but I really wanna grow.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m really interested.
2
SPEAKER_02
I want to know what you see so that I can improve.
2
SPEAKER_02
I can tell you as a manager and someone who s been in leadership positions, that s a dream, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
That s what any manager wants from somebody who works for them is for that person to come to you and say, hey, I want to get better at being me.
2
SPEAKER_02
And we can talk about some more about that, but that s the invitation that I give to employees.
2
SPEAKER_02
I don t care how
2
SPEAKER_02
bad your boss is, and there s a lot of bad bosses out there.
2
SPEAKER_02
You can use your job to improve your life, and you can challenge yourself in that role with a few little shifts.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, one of the things that I thought was a brilliant sort of pull quote from the book is, because a lot of people are afraid to do things that might make them look bad, or they re afraid to put themselves out there and take risks and be vulnerable, both managers and employees alike, you ve stated that we don t get to grow and look good at the same time.
2
SPEAKER_04
You just don t.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that s right.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, we all have a self-image.
2
SPEAKER_02
We have a, especially people who think they don t have a self-image, they sometimes have the biggest self-image of all.
2
SPEAKER_02
We want to look good, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
We want people to have positive perceptions of us.
2
SPEAKER_02
And oftentimes what we don t realize, anybody who s been in any kind of depthful work, you ve been in a workshop, you ve been in a room at some point in your life where somebody said, you know, I don t have a clue what I m doing.
2
SPEAKER_02
And what happens in the room when some of that happens?
2
SPEAKER_02
Everybody goes, oh, yeah, me neither.
2
SPEAKER_03
Me neither.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_02
So we know this, like we know in our head that that s what draws people closer.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s what brings healthy, nourishing, fulfilling relationships.
2
SPEAKER_02
We just don t know how to do it at work.
2
SPEAKER_02
We just don t know how to do it in our professional life.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so that s a lot of the work that we do at Refound.
2
SPEAKER_04
I would like to go through the manager types and then, if we have time, the employee archetypes and then see how those play with each other because I love archetypes.
2
SPEAKER_04
Just generally, across the board, AOC is founded on archetypes because anytime we can take big puzzle pieces and make them into even bigger puzzle pieces to type people and show us how to relate to them and how they make them relatable to one another, it just makes the whole thing easier to work with, right?
2
SPEAKER_04
trying to find iron filings in sand, you gotta have a magnet or you re in for a long night, right?
2
SPEAKER_04
So let s talk about the manager type
3
SPEAKER_00
These were quite useful in my opinion.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I m glad you liked them.
3
SPEAKER_02
The three are the fixer, fighter, or friend.
3
SPEAKER_02
You can think of them as management or leadership archetypes.
3
SPEAKER_02
And what I want to say about these before we kind of dive into them a little bit is try to think of them not as, oh, this is a good quality or a bad quality, but these are human qualities.
3
SPEAKER_02
This is how we show up as leaders.
3
SPEAKER_02
So we go through them, we ll go through them backwards.
3
SPEAKER_02
So the friend type, very common these days, is the leader or the manager who is really good at creating a collegial work environment.
3
SPEAKER_02
Their door is always open.
3
SPEAKER_02
They re good listeners.
3
SPEAKER_02
You don t feel scared of them.
3
SPEAKER_02
You feel like you can speak your mind.
3
SPEAKER_02
They talk about culture.
3
SPEAKER_02
Hey, we re all on the same team.
3
SPEAKER_02
How can I help?
3
SPEAKER_02
That kind of a vibe.
3
SPEAKER_02
So wonderful quality.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s great to have that, to lead with the friend archetype.
3
SPEAKER_02
But what s the problem with the friend archetype?
3
SPEAKER_02
The friend has a lot of trouble setting boundaries, has a lot of trouble holding people accountable for the little things and helping people by setting boundaries and saying, look, I know you re trying, but this is the place you got to get to and you got to get there this month or this week or whatever that is.
3
SPEAKER_02
So when we work with the friend archetype, if you know that about yourself, if you know that you re that type of person, embrace that strength.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s wonderful that you can do that.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s a great quality that s going to help you in your career.
3
SPEAKER_02
And you ve got to true up your skills in being able to set expectations and hold people accountable for results.
3
SPEAKER_02
So that s the friend archetype.
3
SPEAKER_02
If we go backwards, you talk about the fighter.
3
SPEAKER_02
This is the one that I mostly resonate with, but I also have the fixer, which we ll get to.
3
SPEAKER_02
So the fighter is the leader or the manager who always has a new idea.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s always pushing the envelope.
3
SPEAKER_02
Hey, guys, I know we were doing that yesterday, but we re going to do this now.
3
SPEAKER_02
Forget all that, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
Always has a new idea, brilliant new scheme for how to get to the goal.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s great, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
They push the envelope, the fighter.
3
SPEAKER_02
You think Steve Jobs is sort of the quintessential fighter archetype.
3
SPEAKER_02
who pushes things ahead.
3
SPEAKER_02
But there s a major cost, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
Working for somebody like that can be horrible because priorities are always shifting.
3
SPEAKER_02
You never feel like you re on track.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know, you go home feeling like you did good work one day, and then the next day the ground has shifted underneath your feet.
3
SPEAKER_02
So if you know that that s your type, if you know, hey, you know, one of my strengths is being able to kind of have a vision and move things forward, what you got to watch out for are, well, how many projects do you have going at one time?
3
SPEAKER_02
What can you delete?
3
SPEAKER_02
What can you archive?
3
SPEAKER_02
What can you take off of the plate of your team so they don t get overwhelmed?
3
SPEAKER_02
And there s a lot more to that fighter archetype.
3
SPEAKER_00
I unfortunately fall into that.
3
SPEAKER_00
It works great for creative stuff where I m like, oh, you know what?
3
SPEAKER_00
We should do this.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, let me test that.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s great.
3
SPEAKER_00
My team, however, is not stoked about that because they re like, yeah, I just moved everything to that server.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then I m like, yeah, yeah, let s move it back.
3
SPEAKER_00
I have a totally different idea.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then Jason s like, I m going to kill you next time I see you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Pretty much, yeah, yeah, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re not going to make it out the front door more than five feet.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_02
I went through that with a couple of the teams that I was on and I said to them, I said, look, I want you to give this back to me, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
So, you know, the next time he does that, you say to him like, hey, this is one of those moments, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
You probably do it already.
3
SPEAKER_02
You guys have a good relationship.
3
SPEAKER_02
I trained my team to say, look, I want you to tell me, and they would say, Jonathan,
3
SPEAKER_02
No.
3
SPEAKER_02
And they would say it friendly, but they would say, like, we just did this, like, give us a week.
3
SPEAKER_02
We have a plan for what we re going to do here.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I promise you, if you go home or go have a coffee, if you come back, it s going to be exactly what you want.
3
SPEAKER_02
Can you leave now?
3
SPEAKER_02
And I said, OK, got it.
3
SPEAKER_02
You guys got it.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m out of here.
3
SPEAKER_02
So a lot of times if you re the fighter, you just need the team to knock you off of that position.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we re usually pretty willing to give up once we feel, OK, they ve got this and they ve got the initiative.
3
SPEAKER_02
I can get out of the way.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can see this and I can see it also becoming kind of a problem because the fighter, if we are not self-aware, we think, look, I m just trying to bring out the best in you.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m trying to make sure we test every option.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you re not up for it, maybe you don t belong here.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then you get your highest quality people being like,
3
SPEAKER_00
You re right, I don t belong here, because you re effing crazy and you can t stick to a week-long project or a day-long project without firing on all cylinders and rowing in different directions.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then the friend, of course, and I ve heard stuff like this, I m sure you have too, I really need to get rid of this person, but he s been working here forever, and I m thinking,
3
SPEAKER_00
Right, so the guy who s ruining your sales division, you ve known him forever, so you re going to ruin everyone else s life in the company, including your own, because your college roommate works there and clearly doesn t want to be there anymore, but you can t, like, strap up and handle business, and it s been that way for years.
3
SPEAKER_00
Meanwhile, people are quitting left and right because they know they can t talk to you about this person.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and they ve lost all respect for you as a leader because you won t do the hard thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
It goes down the rabbit hole pretty quickly.
3
SPEAKER_00
One of the things that has been massively beneficial is that a lot of the people on my team that work with me at an equal level, partners, are very data-driven managers, so my fighter-ism, my fighter-ness is often buffered by, yep, we re gonna put that on the list, and meanwhile, we re testing this thing that we talked about last week, just as we planned, and I kind of go like, oh yeah,
3
SPEAKER_00
Cool, let me know how that goes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because I know that I m doing this stuff.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just can t contain myself, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
And like you said, it s a great quality when you have data-driven managers around you or data-driven friends, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
You know, whatever that is.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know, people can t see the smile on your face, but I love the relaxation when you know, hey, you know what?
3
SPEAKER_02
That kind of describes me.
3
SPEAKER_02
And okay, I can live with that.
3
SPEAKER_02
And here s the thing that I say to managers and leaders before we talk about the fixer.
3
SPEAKER_02
Think of your worst qualities.
3
SPEAKER_02
Everybody on your team already knows that about you.
3
SPEAKER_02
They already know all that stuff about you.
3
SPEAKER_02
The only thing is you re not being transparent about it.
3
SPEAKER_02
You re not having fun with it.
3
SPEAKER_02
You re not being vulnerable about it.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s the only gap.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we can work with you to just open it up and your team will go like, yeah, of course, we always knew that about you.
3
SPEAKER_02
We just didn t know if you knew that about you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, this actually makes a lot of sense, because if you are a fighter, you call it out, you tell people, look, I often go in different directions, da-da-da-da, and you ve got people in place whose job it is to basically say, like, slow down, we ll get there, we re working on the other project, which is Jason s job, you can basically laugh about that together, and it s like, oh, okay, I can kind of corral myself, and I know when to really say, like, no, no, no, this stuff is actually important.
3
SPEAKER_00
and you start to pick your battles, and then you realize, oh, okay, this isn t how everybody works.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s such a nice feeling, because you re right, if it s just like, well, Jordan s gonna suggest some random crap tomorrow, and then we re gonna jump on that, it s so demoralizing, but if you can laugh at it, then you ve just kind of opened the curtain on the Wizard of Oz.
3
SPEAKER_01
It changes everything.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and when Jordan does actually double down on something, we know that he s serious then.
3
SPEAKER_01
If we can t dissuade him just with the normal, uh, he had bad guacamole today, then we just know that, okay, he s serious about this and we re doubling down.
3
SPEAKER_01
And once he says we re doubling down, then we just put everything aside and then we get to business.
3
SPEAKER_00
Of course, though, the thing is, I rarely say that because you kind of know when to pull the fire alarm.
3
SPEAKER_00
You learn that after a while.
3
SPEAKER_01
But that s what makes it important because if you actually do pull that, like this is important, then we know it literally is important.
3
SPEAKER_01
So we know that, okay, he s not just dicking around now.
3
SPEAKER_01
We need to put our resources into this area of the business and it is something that we have to focus on.
3
SPEAKER_01
Tell us about fixers.
3
SPEAKER_02
So the fixer, these are all actually forms of micromanagement in another way.
3
SPEAKER_02
Maybe we ll have another conversation about that.
3
SPEAKER_02
But the fixer you could think of as the craftsman.
3
SPEAKER_02
They re the one who checks everything, has to be perfect before it goes out.
3
SPEAKER_02
Every typo, fascinated by the user experience down to the pixel, down to every click and color of every button and whatever that looks like, whether it s marketing, sales, finance, it doesn t matter.
3
SPEAKER_02
Which is an unbelievably awesome quality, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
Craftsmanship, there s not enough craftsmanship in our world.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s some.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s a great quality to have as a leader or manager.
3
SPEAKER_02
Here s the problem with that.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s really difficult to work for somebody who has that highest standard because you feel like or it s easy to feel like nothing you do is ever good enough.
3
SPEAKER_02
Your work product, your craft can never be as good.
3
SPEAKER_02
You can never write copy that s as good.
3
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You can t design as well.
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You can t have a good sales conversation that s as profound as they can have, whatever it is.
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And so if you know that about yourself, again, like we re talking about, you can open up about it.
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You can say, hey, look, I know that, you know, sometimes I get a bit nuts with copy editing and reading things a couple of times.
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You can laugh about it.
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You can have some fun with it.
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And then your team goes, okay, great.
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How can I find my voice?
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How can I be myself?
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And then Jonathan can be the best that he can be, and I get to be the best that I can be at the same time, and we re not in competition.
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And so that last example, it s more of the classic micromanaging, but at the level of technical detail, because we live in such a specialized world where people who start businesses, people who lead teams, generally speaking, they re great at something, whether it s coding or marketing or sales, writing copy, they have a specific talent.
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And the thing that they struggle with is they don t know how to teach other people to find their own voice relative to that talent.
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So by, you know that about yourself, you start to open up that space.
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This is relieving, right, because my follow-up question to that before we sort of jumped down there naturally was, are we just supposed to not be any of these?
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Because I m in trouble, because I feel like I m all three of these most of the time, right?
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So if I m not supposed to be any of those, there s many a manager who s like, oh, thank God, you know, this is normal.
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Do people always fall into one of these three, or are there smaller ones that you just didn t mention?
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Usually they re a blend.
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I find most people who say like, you know, I m mostly the fixer, but sometimes I play the friend.
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People find kind of a dominant theme.
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And I have a tool that people can kind of go on and do a quiz on the site.
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Maybe we ll get that in the show notes.
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But mostly people find a dominant theme and then a
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of a secondary one.
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Ask yourself, are you a different one in your professional one or your personal life?
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This comes up a lot with people that I talk with.
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They say, you know what?
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I don t know why this is, but at home, I feel like I m the fighter.
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But at work, I feel like I m always playing the friend.
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What s up with that?
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That s a really interesting conversation to have because that goes into what we talked about at the beginning.
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Like, how am I being different?
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Why am I showing up differently at work?
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in whatever my work is, then I am showing up with my friends and with my loved ones.
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What s that about?
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Maybe there s a piece of work for me to do there.
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That s really interesting.
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I hadn t thought about the idea that you could be a fighter at work and the friend at home or the fixer at home.
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I feel like I m actually
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fighter no matter where I am which maybe just hell that simplifies things great everything s on the same page which makes sense because I do work from home and I work with my significant other so that may play a part in it of course.
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Yeah and the thing that you know just to come back to what you said at the beginning around like the reason why I put this chapter in is so we can embrace our full humanity at work right
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You don t have to stop being the fighter.
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You don t have to stop being the fixer.
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You don t have to stop being the friend.
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All you got to do is live knowing that you have that quality and run your meetings that way and have some laughs.
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And that self-deprecation goes a really long way when you re in a position of authority.
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You can overdo it if you re constantly doing that about yourself.
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Well, that doesn t work.
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You got to find the balance.
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you know, know thyself.
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People want to work for somebody who has some of that going on and they can say like, okay, you know, I can work for this person because they know themselves.
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And guess what that does?
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It inspires me to know myself.
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But if that person is always portraying like they have all the answers or they have the only way or that we ve got to do it, we have to show up the way they show up exactly how they show up.
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Well, I don t want to work there and I m already looking for something else to go do with my life.
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Now, what about employee archetypes as well?
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Look, the management stuff is brilliant.
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We can see that even if we are employees, but wait, there s more, right?
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The employee archetypes are also in there, and those play differently with different management archetypes.
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They do, yeah.
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And if you re an employee or think about your last job, if you go through these and think about which one is you, and maybe we ll dive back in.
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I made them all start with the letter P just for fun.
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The pragmatist, the provocateur, the protector, the peacemaker, and the performer.
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The pragmatist you ve probably worked with, this is somebody who s pretty easy to get along with, they re methodical, they go through their day, they get stuff done, they re generally agreeable personalities, they re good team players.
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They re practical in their approach to being as part of a team.
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And the challenge for the pragmatist is how do they break out?
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How do they have an individual voice?
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And I worked with a young woman on one of my teams who really embodied this archetype.
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And I had to push her.
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I would say, hey, well, what do you think?
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And I want you to run this meeting and I m out of here.
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I want you to talk with this person.
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And I wanted to push her boundaries so that she had to step into some conflict.
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She had to step into some of those friction zones.
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And then she got to become a better version of herself because it was easy for her to be the pragmatist, but it was also self-limiting.
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And so by challenging her to do that and by her saying, like, yeah, you know, I know that about myself and I want that, like, I want to be able to have a tough conversation with somebody.
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I want to be that kind of a person and using her job to be able to do that.
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So that s the pragmatist.
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The provocateur.
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Very common.
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It s more often men than women, but not always, obviously.
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The provocateur is somebody who always has to have a better idea, always has a better way, you know, is constantly interrupting people.
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Hey, well, what if we did this?
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And, you know, I don t think we should do it that way.
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And men are more conditioned to tend to that archetype than women are, but there s a lot of women who do it too.
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It s a great quality, right?
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Where it s like the fighter in the form of an employee, someone who s always pushing the envelope.
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Here s the good thing.
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Oftentimes they do have a better way.
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Their ideas are usually good.
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But they drive other people crazy because they always have to have another answer.
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They always have to have a better way.
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And so if you know that about yourself or if you re working with a provocateur, a lot of times what they struggle with, nobody ever really set a boundary with them.
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Nobody said, okay, I get it.
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That s a good idea.
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Maybe we ll do it that way next time.
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I need you to work within this box this week.
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Let s see how we do with that.
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And let s learn and we ll track the data.
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We ll track the metrics and then we ll go from here.
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So I m not shutting down your idea, but I just want you to keep it in a box so that we can really embrace it next time.
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They may kick and scream a little bit at the beginning, but they ll secretly love you for it because nobody has ever given them that in their life.
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And if you re a provocateur yourself, you know this.
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Nobody has ever set a boundary with you and said,
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No, stop.
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We re not doing it that way.
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You got to, you have to follow the rules.
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There s value in following the rules.
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We re going to learn from keeping a contained prototype or a contained experiment.
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And then we re going to learn from that.
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So the next one is the protector.
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I ll give you an example of somebody from my team.
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It was a young woman on my team who she had a lot of trouble.
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She was emotionally attuned person, the protector, but oftentimes they come from domestic situations or life trauma.
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where some really difficult stuff has happened to them.
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They ve learned how to keep their emotions inside because they learned in some, generally speaking, in some early childhood thing or maybe in a difficult traumatic moment, they learned that expressing their emotions can get them in a lot of trouble.
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They may have some real hotheaded people around them.
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They may have some violent people around them, abusive people around them, what have you.
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So they re very good.
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They re very good at reading other people.
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They re very good at being attuned to the environment around them and making sure that they don t set people off, which can be a good quality, right?
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That can sometimes be very effective.
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And if you re working with certain people or in certain environments, that may be something that you need to do every once in a while.
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The challenge is, as we know now, when you bottle up your emotions, when you bottle up what you feel, it burns you in the end, right?
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It harms you physically, it harms you emotionally, it harms you spiritually.
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It s not good.
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It s not good practice.
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So if you re the protector, if you know that you have that habit, you ve got to find a venue for where you can outlet your emotions in a safe and productive way.
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You can do that with a really good manager, with a really good leader.
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They ll give you this example, this one person, I ll call her Jennifer.
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One of the things that we did is we said, hey, I want you to make a hate list for all the things that you hate about working here and the things that suck about working on our team.
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And she looked at all of us, she looked at me and she s like, you don t really mean that, do you?
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And I said, yeah, I really want you to do that.
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And this was really fun, right?
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She got to come up with her hate list.
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And then I said, you know, I want to share one of these things.
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Every time we have a team meeting, I want to share one of the things
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on your list.
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And here was the awesome thing.
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Everybody hated the same things that she hated, right?
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And it became this awesome thing where we changed so many things about the way we operated based on her hate list.
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And she got to feel like, holy cow, my emotions are welcome here.
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Who I am is okay.
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And so that s the protector personality.
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I can just see you asking, or any manager asking somebody to do that, and they re like, yeah, okay, let me go update my resume, and then I will make a list of everything I hate here at work that involves my boss.
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Yeah, that s great.
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And it sounds like each of these archetypes come from our own particular,
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Eccentricities are upbringing.
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There s mommy and daddy issues that are feeding into this stuff.
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There s all kinds of things.
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It kind of goes back to your earlier point about, look, the line between work life and personal life, you can try to separate it all you want, but people are bringing their personal baggage to work, so you might as well have them bring their personal advantages and the upside to their personal life should also be welcome at work.
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Otherwise, it s just kind of like,
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Hey, clean all the crap out of your basement and leave it here at the office.
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It s like, no, no, no.
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I want the stuff that s in your living room in the office.
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It s good.
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Both the good and the bad, because the bad s coming in anyway.
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They re tracking in dirt no matter what.
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That s right.
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And there s no place.
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This is true about every single person on planet Earth who s ever been born.
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We all have authority issues, right?
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That s why I wrote a book about authority, right?
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Me too, right?
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It s hard when somebody else has control of your paycheck or has power to tell you what to do or has some kind of form of control or heavy influence, let s say, on whether or not you re going to have sushi on Friday night.
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We all bring our authority stuff to work.
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We bring it both as leaders, but we bring it as employees.
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If you have a boss,
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you re to some degree looking at that boss through your understanding and your belief system around what does it mean to listen to authority?
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How do I disagree?
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How do I agree?
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How do I be myself around someone in authority?
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And so you re going to do something with the awareness, the awareness and the acceptance of like, of course, right?
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This is happening all the time in any organization.
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Authority stuff is flying all over the place.
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So let s be smarter about it.
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Let s bring it in.
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And I love what you said, like, bring all of you, because guess what?
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It s all there anyway.
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The last two of the employee personas, the second to last one is what I call the peacemaker.
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And a peacemaker is somebody who is really good.
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Typically, they say yes, you know, you ask them to take on a project, they ll say yes, even when they re overwhelmed, right?
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They re the quintessential team player in a certain way.
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They re good at keeping things moving.
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Here s the problem.
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They re not good at saying, you know, I don t actually know how to do this.
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And this happens all the time where the peacemaker will take on a role or, you know, Oh yeah, I can call that customer or, Oh, I can take care of that project.
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Oh, I ll build that tool.
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They don t actually have the skill to do that, but they don t know how to say no.
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They don t know how to say.
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I d really like to do that, but I actually never learned that.
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And I feel a little bad because I think I maybe
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kind of said that I did on my resume, but I hope you don t think ill of me, but I feel like I need some help.
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I would so much rather have that.
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Oh, don t worry about it.
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We ve all been there.
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Here s what I need from you on that. 
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And so the peacemaker, and again, we talk about sort of the background of the peacemaker is somebody who often kept the peace in their family and they knew how to kind of smooth people s rough edges.
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They re sort of related to the protector in a certain way, but a little bit different.
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And so the peacemaker person, you know, to be able to challenge them and give them assignments, give them not assignments in a bad way, assignments in like, hey, how about this?
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Why don t you try this?
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Why don t you go to this person and have this conversation to push them out of their comfort zone, do it with kindness, and they will learn how to be a part of the team and to be able to say no.
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And so much of the time, there s way too many projects moving way too fast.
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And what most teams need to do is radically simplify how many things they re doing.
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And, you know, to go into Asana or whatever project management tool they re using, delete a whole bunch of stuff and focus on the top one or two, or maybe three things.
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And if you go into most teams, before I come in, if I say, how many projects?
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We have 47 projects that we re working on.
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No, you re not.
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you have 47 projects that you re not working on or you re working on badly, right?
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And so the house cleaning that happens there, a little bit off the Peacemaker particular, but that s a lot of how that happens as we all, oh sure, yeah, we can do that.
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And instead of saying like, no, not only can we not do that, I don t even want to put that in the project management software because then I have to see it every time I log in and it distracts me and it takes mental attention.
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We re not even going to put it in there, delete, archive, it s gone, right?
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It s not taking up mental space for anybody.
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This is important because it sort of highlights the point that actually conflict is essential to the business.
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You don t want somebody absorbing the brunt of everything to smooth everything out.
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You need those hard surfaces because, at least at AOC, conflict
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when we meet up and we go to another state or another city and we meet up, it s not just like, great guys, this is so much fun.
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It s like, well, I don t want to do that.
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Here s why.
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Why should we do it that way?
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Why not this way?
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Well, because this and this and this.
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Well, actually, okay, that s a good point.
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You have to have that conflict.
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If somebody s just absorbing all that, they re freaking miserable and everyone else is worse off for it.
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And these days, you know, I work with a lot of people who talk a lot about culture and companies and CEOs, you know, write about a few of these examples in the book where there s a lot of consciousness, I ll put that in scare quotes,
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a lot of consciousness around culture.
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And I had this one CEO say this thing to me, which is really brilliant after we did a little bit of work to get below the surface, because they weren t having this kind of conflict.
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And he said, you know, I feel like we re like a bodybuilder.
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I feel like, you know, if you re on the surface, it looks really good.
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If you get below like, you know, our intestinal system is all screwed up and, you know, our pores are all clogged and it s a mess and we have, you know, heart problems.
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And if you get below the surface of all the happy talk about our culture, all that conflict is there.
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It s just not happening.
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And in smaller businesses, they tend to be a little more out with it.
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As the business gets larger, it can naturally get a little more political, a little more protective.
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But that s when it gets really important to bring that stuff out and find a way to have healthy conflict in the organization.
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So it s great that you guys have that.
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because it makes it human and fun, right?
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If there s not conflict, if there aren t things that are happening where people go like, wow, that s really frustrating and they don t feel safe, then you don t have a good culture.
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I don t care what you say.
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I don t want your company values say.
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If people aren t disagreeing and if people aren t out with it and finding ways to having venues to be their real self, because our real self is sometimes frustrated.
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Our real self gets worries about things.
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Our real self, we can have the best of intentions, but we harm other people.
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We hurt other people.
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It s what it means to be human being.
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And to be vulnerable, we get hurt ourselves.
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This is happening all the time.
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We just got to bring it out.
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The last of the five employee personas is what I call the performer.
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And this is sort of like the fixer version is the performers like the craftsman, right?
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So if you re a really good copywriter or you re really good at talking to people, you re really good at diffusing a disgruntled customer.
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That s an incredible skill.
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They re really often great at a specific thing.
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that they ve learned, you know, maybe they learned that from a mentor that they had or some kind of apprentice thing, but they re usually good at a specific thing.
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The challenge for the performer is how do I do that thing on a team of other people who don t have that same standard without saying like, oh, I m better than you, right?
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Like, well, cause I m really great at writing copy.
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That means, you know, well, you suck because you don t know how to write instead of saying like, well, what is that person great at?
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and being able to expand beyond the craft that we know ourselves to be able to see the unbelievable strength and incredibleness in other people.
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And we could all get a little bit better at that.
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You know, everybody has a certain strength.
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Some people have strengths that are harder to define than others.
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But if you re in a leadership position and you re working with someone who is that performer where they really value the craft, they may lose.
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Okay, that s great.
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You designed an awesome webpage, but it doesn t convert.
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So now what do we do, right?
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We re not doing art for art s sake here, right?
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You know, it s great, it s beautiful, but it didn t work.
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So I got to get you out of that mindset.
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We have to attach our skills to real world outcomes.
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And that s so much of the work.
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That s what it takes to bring personal and professional growth together.
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The old world is all about business, all about goals.
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It s all top down and outside in.
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The new age world is all woo woo and life coaching and isn t it all great and blah, blah, blah.
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And it s totally divorced from results and we got to get shit done and we need to make money.
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The blend between personal and professional growth is to be able to say, OK, this is the result that we need.
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How can we all do our personal part and how can I become a better human being by playing my part in us achieving that goal?
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Jonathan, I can see why you are good at what you do.
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This type of work is just the right mix of detail-oriented geek, orderly, process-driven lawyer, and a creative person with a high EQ.
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And we re really glad to have you here with us today.
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Thanks so much.
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Someone once said, you know, when you find a job where you re bringing all the best and worst of your past to the present, you re on track.
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And I m 44 and I feel like I got there.
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Great big thank you to Jonathan Raymond.
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The book is called Good Authority.
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That ll be linked up in the show notes as well as the quiz that he mentioned, if we can dig that on up.
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And if you enjoyed that, don t forget to thank him on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well.
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Remember, if you re listening on your phone, you can probably just tap your phone screen and the note should pop right up.
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Otherwise, you can check that out in any podcast player, depending on what you re using to listen to us.
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I m also on Twitter.
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I post a lot of things that never make it to the show, and it s one of the best ways to engage with me.
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Yes, we still use Twitter over here at AOC.
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I m at theartofcharm on Twitter.
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And I enjoyed this one, Jason.
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I mean, look, it s a management-esque topic, but there s a lot here for those of us that just, I just like personality typing.
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I like making people easier to work with because we are such complex creatures, and I thought he did a really good job with that.
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And I think that it helps me manage you.
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I thought I learned a lot from this, this interaction for sure.
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Crap.
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I m not sure if I like it anymore.
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Bootcamp details, live programs, those we run almost every single week here in Los Angeles and California, California.
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Live program details are at bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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The bootcamp is by far and away my favorite part of running AOC.
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I mean, I love the show, but I love seeing people kick butt with what they learn from the show and what they learn from us live, and that s the best way to learn from us, with us as your coaches at AOC.
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So if you want the deets on that, remember we re sold out a few months in advance, so get us in touch with you.
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How s that for a little flip around?
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And get the info from us so you can plan ahead.
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I m also trying to encourage everybody to join the AOC Challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or you can text the word charmed to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D.
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to 33444.
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The challenge is about improving your networking and connection skills, inspiring those around you to develop relationships with you.
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We ll email you that fundamentals toolbox with the body language and the non-verbals and all that other good stuff that I mentioned earlier on the show.
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Also, videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward.
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It ll make you a better networker, it ll make you a better connector, but of course it ll make you a better thinker, because that s what we re all about here at AOC.
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Theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text the word charmed, if you re here in the states, to 33444.
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For full show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show, head on over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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This episode, of course, as usual, was produced by Jason DeFillippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and the editor, and the show notes on the website, those are by Robert Fogerty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web, so stay charming, and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.