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Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip.
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I m Kelsey McKinney, and in each episode of this podcast, we re going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world.
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I am so excited to have with me today, Elise Hu.
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Elise is the host of TED Talks Daily and a host at large at NPR, as well as the author of Flawless, Lessons in Looks and Culture from the K-Beauty Capital, which is based on her years as a foreign correspondent in Seoul, South Korea.
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Previously, Elise helped found the Texas Tribune, a nonprofit digital startup.
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She is a graduate of the University of Missouri Columbia Journalism School, and she lives in Los Angeles with her three daughters.
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Elise, welcome!
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Thank you so much.
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I m super caffeinated and ready to go.
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Hell yeah.
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Elise, we are both Texas girls.
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We re from almost the same place.
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I wonder, do you think that there s anything distinctive about the way Texans gossip?
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It s more physical.
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It s the knee slapping.
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It s the kind of leaning in.
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I think the physicality is really special.
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I think there s a certain gameness among my Texas girls and Texas guys when we share stories.
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Yeah, I think for me, I live in Philadelphia now and it s the first place I ve lived since growing up in Texas that has like a volume that s way higher, right?
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Like it s just louder.
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Like people are just yelling and I don t really know why, but I feel like that s connected to what you re saying, this kind of like exuberance.
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of gossip and excitement.
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You have three daughters.
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How do you think about talking to them about gossip?
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I have a tween now.
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My oldest daughter is 11 and she is in that time.
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It all started around fourth grade, but I think it gets worse in fifth grade and then in middle school where people are starting to be very judgy with one another and talking behind each other s backs.
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And I try not to intervene.
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And the reason I try not to intervene is because I want her to not have or get used to the idea of an adult swooping in and helping them with their interpersonal
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I try to be the person that she can talk to.
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I just don t want us to have the kind of relationship where she feels like she has to keep things from me or keep everything from me.
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And so usually when she does share, I m like, thank you so much for sharing and try not to have an opinion.
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Though she would tell you the opposite.
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She would be like, oh, every time I tell you anything, you launch into a lecture.
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Let s just be realistic about how our perceptions of the situation are different.
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But I just try and tell her, look, I don t care who your friends are.
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You can choose who your friends are, but there is no quarter for a lack of kindness.
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So what I want to do is just impart a basic kindness.
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Because the middle school years can be very fraught.
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I ve heard that you are a big community builder, that you are like, force all my friends to be friends with each other.
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That s my dream.
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Right.
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That s what I want on my tombstone, like that all her friends became friends.
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Oh, that s so beautiful.
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It does kind of restrict your gossip access, though, doesn t it?
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If all your friends are friends?
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Have you considered this as a potential downside?
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You have to be really careful about your group chat, who was on the group chat.
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So the channels, like managing channels is really important.
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Also, just generally not being under the influence when you re gossiping is very important.
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Being able to have mental wherewithal.
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Yeah, you actually have to have the cognition, right?
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Like, I was having this conversation with Kat.
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I was having a different conversation with Liz.
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Liz knows about Kat s husband.
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You know, like, you just got to keep all your channels straight.
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Yeah, it s always funny to me when people are drinking on reality game shows in particular, because I m like, you are making a huge strategic error.
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Because by drinking, you re going to be loose lipped.
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And then you re in trouble.
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Like a good gossip is loose lipped intentionally and strategically and not like accidentally.
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Yes, yes.
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I mean, we don t get paid much as journalists.
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So we trade in information, like our currency ends up being information.
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And as a result, you really have to know how to hold it back.
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I heard that you brought a gossip for me.
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I sure did.
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It s kind of an apocryphal tale.
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Oh, great.
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I m terrified.
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Is that gossip?
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If it s an apocryphal tale?
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I ve heard it a few times.
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I think most stories are gossip, but that s one of my hot takes, so.
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Okay.
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It s a little story from the pre-digital age.
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Perfect.
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So I think it s about the mid-90s, because when this was told to me in the aughts, the characters were already decades older than me.
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Okay.
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There s a man and he s a known cad.
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He s a cad.
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He s a Lothario.
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Yes.
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His relationships with women don t observe traditional borders.
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Okay.
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He s married, he has two daughters, and he has one of those jobs where he s away from home a lot.
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Oh, how convenient.
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Isn t that interesting?
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It really helps when you re a CAD because it allows him to form a relationship with another woman.
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He takes on a mistress, and him and his mistress are going along fine for about a year or so.
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No one s the wiser.
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Then this guy gets a little ambitious.
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His nights are already busy, right?
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His nights are busy with the wife and family or with the mistress.
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And so he picks up a woman at work.
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Oh, a daytime mistress.
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Exactly.
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Because his nights aren t free.
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Whenever I hear about men like this, I m like, aren t you exhausted?
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Right?
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Like, this just seems like so much work to me to be like, okay, so I have my wife, and then I have my nighttime mistress, and then I have my daytime mistress.
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It s like, maybe you just need a hobby.
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Clearly he has a lot of stamina or extreme horniness or something.
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Because he can fit all of this in.
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The daytime mistress and the man only meet up at lunch for nooners because that s the only opportunity.
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Because she s a daytime mistress.
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So anyway, he keeps this relationship going with the flings at lunch.
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He brings her to his place for these nooners, but someone... To the place that he lives in with his wife.
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or to a second place that he has because he travels for work?
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This I don t know.
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As we say in Texas, don t catch me lying.
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Yeah.
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Because I don t know this particular part of it.
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When I first heard this story, I didn t ask the right question clearly.
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I m like, where is this place?
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Sometimes you get too excited.
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Geographically, like, which zip code is it in?
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Yeah.
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No, I don t know any of this stuff.
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Okay.
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I only know the particular relational dynamics.
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But not the office.
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Yeah, it s not the office.
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It is a home.
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It is a home where he has
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A bed.
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Okay.
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And this is when the triple timing kind of begins to unravel and he starts to get in over his skis.
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Though I would say he was in over his skis when he tried to bring on the daytime situation.
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Yes, I would agree with that.
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But somehow it gets word to the nighttime mistress, the main mistress, mistress number one.
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That the daytime mistress exists?
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That the daytime mistress exists.
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Okay, got it.
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Interesting.
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And this mistress is furious.
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And she s like, I don t believe it.
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I need to verify this somehow.
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But it is the early 1990s.
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Yeah.
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And there is no location tracking.
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Right.
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There are no cell phones.
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You can t really Google.
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But you know what kind of technology exists at this time?
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Landlines?
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Landlines.
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Not effective for this purpose.
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Fax machines.
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fax machines.
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That would take too long.
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I m not sure how many people would need to be involved in order to verify an affair via fax machine.
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But it is the time of audio baby monitors.
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So this is pre-video baby monitors.
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These are baby monitors that are essentially walkie-talkie devices that are always on.
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Yeah.
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It s a transmitter and a receiver, right?
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Right.
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That s it.
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And so main mistress places a baby monitor under the dude s bed.
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Oh my God.
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And has the other part of the baby monitor, the receiver baby monitor on her person.
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So one day at lunch, she parks outside his place.
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Oh my God.
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At noon o clock.
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I mean, tis the season.
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Right.
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and listens to her end of the baby monitor in the car or from the car, and that s how she catches him in the act.
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Damn, I was about to say that the, like, problem with a baby monitor, I assume now, but also especially then, is that it has a limited range, right?
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Like, you can t sit at your apartment.
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No.
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Incredible.
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So the information she had gotten is not only that he was having a daytime mistress affair, but also that it was at noon at his apartment.
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It was always during lunch.
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The daytime part of it is so crucial in catching him in the act.
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She goes on to bust him and she tells the wife, to this day, the wife and this main mistress remain good friends.
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And it led the man to say a phrase that I ll always remember and why I ll always remember this story.
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He said, never run around on your run around.
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Honestly, he s right.
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Don t run around on your runaround.
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Would you like to hear the gossip that I have for you?
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I cannot wait.
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Today s story is about two best bros.
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Our friend of a friend, we re going to call him Emmett.
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Emmett has never had a best bro.
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His whole life growing up, he wasn t on teams, couldn t find his group.
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He was so excited to leave the town where he grew up and go to college.
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He goes to college in a big city in Texas.
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Okay.
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The lottery roommate he s assigned, this guy s name is Xander.
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Okay, we got Emmett, we got Xander.
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They meet in college.
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Yes.
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And Xander s like the first day, he s like,
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like, do you want to walk and find food with me?
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And Emmett s like, yeah, I would love to.
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And they go on this walk, and Xander is like, immediately asking him like, questions nobody has asked him, right?
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Like, he s like, what s your relationship with your parents like?
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Like, what was your high school experience like?
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They are like, immediately intimate in a way that Emmett is like, I didn t know boys could have friends like this.
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Yeah, I m already sort of incredulous about this story, because I don t imagine boys to be really interested in each other s emotional lives either.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And now suddenly he s been gifted by the universe, Xander.
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Oh, sweet.
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They re both computer science majors.
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They both don t like football.
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They re both left-handed.
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They both love video games.
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It s like everything s coming up in it.
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I can t say that being left-handed at the same time as your roommate, really.
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It benefits you in any way, but if you have those special scissors, left-handed scissors, you can share with your roommate.
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Yeah, and sharing is important.
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But Emmett feels less secure in this friendship.
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then he wants to because Xander is like a really popular guy.
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Like he s very charismatic and he s like really good at making friends.
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So like Xander has all these friends and Emmett s like, my friend is Xander.
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Is this relatable to you at all?
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Like what would you do in this scenario?
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I would cling on to my one friend for dear life.
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Just wrap your tie yourself to him.
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He would be my sole source of validation.
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He s a 19-year-old boy, so obviously he s not going to talk to Xander about it.
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But he s like, I think the solution to this problem for me is to get a bigger social group.
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Of course.
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I mean, the answer is find other friends.
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Yes.
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Now that you have a base friend, you can build from this base.
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Exactly.
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And being friends with Xander has given him a little more confidence, right?
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Because Xander just rubs confidence off on people.
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That s great.
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Yeah, so and it s like, you know, he makes some friends, he starts dating a girl, their freshman year goes pretty well.
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You just took a leap.
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Not only does he have more than one friend, suddenly he has a girlfriend.
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Romantic interests.
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Wow.
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Crazy growth.
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Okay.
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Their freshman year goes great.
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Their sophomore year starts off good.
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They re still living together.
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They re still living together.
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They moved into an apartment.
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Okay.
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Which is very cute.
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Spring semester is 2020.
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Oh.
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Pandemic hits.
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Yeah.
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Now they are in their off campus apartment.
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Just the two of them.
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And there are all of these like little mild dramas, right?
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Like, Emmett s now girlfriend Rita is trying to come over and Xander s like, but who does she see?
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Who s in her circle?
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Right?
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All this stuff.
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How big is her bubble?
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Exactly.
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They re like, can Xander date?
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right?
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Like during this period because it seems dangerous, but also he s lonely.
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Yeah, because everybody had different tolerance levels and different protocols, too.
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Did you have any drama like this, like interpersonal?
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Yes, actually.
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The disillusion of my marriage began during Christmas.
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I m not trying to get super dark.
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And it wasn t actually super dark.
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It s just that what happens is... I really just did not see that coming.
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No, no, no.
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You hotbox all your issues, right?
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Because you re stuck in the same place living Groundhog Day.
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So I m guessing for Xander and Emmett, it was accelerating or hotboxing at least some of their issues with one another.
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It wouldn t have otherwise been apparent had they been able to leave the house.
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Right.
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Exactly.
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They have these little issues, but they are like mostly having a good time hanging out.
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They re just bored because they re like, our classes are online.
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We can t do anything.
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So they re like, you know what?
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We re going to like move our computers into the living room.
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Okay.
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Put them on the table.
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We re going to start like fucking around with some ideas.
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Okay.
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We re going to see if we can come up with something that like the two of us could do that would occupy our time.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh.
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But that also might be a future.
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This is like Larry and Sergey in the garage.
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Yes.
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SPEAKER_00
Elise, can you explain crypto?
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It is a currency.
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You can pay stuff with it.
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And it is all built on the blockchain.
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And that blockchain is a universal ledger that everybody can see.
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So the idea is that it s supposed to be far more transparent.
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And yeah, that s a very basic beginner levels understanding that I have of crypto.
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SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
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SPEAKER_00
I know more than before.
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One thing I think is important about crypto is that it is also decentralized, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Like they re like anti-government, anti-bank.
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So it s like a little libertarian in this sense.
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And that s why the ledger is so important, right?
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Because there is no central bank.
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You just have the ledger to verify these transactions and verify the source of funds and all of that.
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I love that they re using the word lecture.
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Like something about that is very funny to me because I m imagining a big book.
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Web 3, baby.
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Literally Web 3.
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All these articles are popping up everywhere, right?
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And Xander and Emmett, they re computer science majors.
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They re reading all of these.
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And they re like, this seems like the future to us.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay.
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And while they re thinking about this, they ve also been playing a lot of video games.
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SPEAKER_01
Okay.
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SPEAKER_00
Do you know what microtransactions are?
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SPEAKER_00
No, I don t think so.
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SPEAKER_00
A microtransaction is a purchase that you make within a video game.
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SPEAKER_01
Okay, so this is the stuff I m buying my kids for in Roblox all the time.
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SPEAKER_01
Yes.
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SPEAKER_01
So I m constantly having to use my Touch ID to buy more Roblox this or that.
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SPEAKER_01
And so I am making microtransactions daily, it sounds like.
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SPEAKER_00
You re a microtransaction queen, actually.
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SPEAKER_01
They re just taking my money over there at Roblox.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay.
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Our boys are like, what if you could use crypto to make these microtransactions?
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, and this hasn t, nobody has come up with this before?
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SPEAKER_00
Well, I mean, they re in college.
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So in their minds, no.
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SPEAKER_00
They re like, this is a great idea.
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SPEAKER_00
We ve got it.
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SPEAKER_00
They re like, basically, like, what if we were Stripe, but for crypto, right?
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SPEAKER_00
What would be the middle software that people use?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I like this.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, you do?
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SPEAKER_01
Well, it seems like there s already products like this on the market, but that s fine.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, it sounds like, hey, a business is being born between two friends, like entrepreneurial spirit, America.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
They re like, here we go.
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SPEAKER_00
We re working on a company.
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SPEAKER_00
It s an idea.
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SPEAKER_00
Is it an app?
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SPEAKER_00
Like, what is it?
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SPEAKER_00
And immediately things like are going well.
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SPEAKER_00
But this also means that the apartment is like rapidly deteriorating because they are working all the time.
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SPEAKER_01
OK, I m smelling it.
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SPEAKER_01
I m smelling it.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes.
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SPEAKER_00
I want you to imagine like Navy sheets.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh God.
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SPEAKER_00
Like those Ikea climbing wall handholds.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
But they re like just for decoration, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Like you can t actually climb on them.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay.
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SPEAKER_00
The two of them are also just like doing voice to text at all times.
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SPEAKER_00
So it s like loud in there and the computers make a lot of noise and it s hot.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, they re in Texas.
0
SPEAKER_00
in the summer.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
0
SPEAKER_00
So it like smells crazy in there, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
Like it s like boy hours.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
Ew.
0
SPEAKER_00
Do you think that Emmett s girlfriend Rita is going to want to come over to this?
0
SPEAKER_01
No, I m guessing she s not into it.
0
SPEAKER_01
If their relationship is still standing.
0
SPEAKER_00
Rita is like, I shan t be coming over there into the like hackathon cave.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s dark and smells weird.
0
SPEAKER_00
If you want to see me, you have to come to my apartment.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, of course.
0
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, that s fair.
0
SPEAKER_00
One day Xander gets a call from an investor.
0
SPEAKER_00
What?
0
SPEAKER_00
And the investor is like, we want to give you money.
0
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
0
SPEAKER_00
To do this thing that you re doing.
0
SPEAKER_00
The thing about the investor is he s like, I want to give you this money.
0
SPEAKER_00
And it s like an unfathomable amount of money to be
1
SPEAKER_00
two guys, but it s actually not that much money, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
It s in the hundreds of thousands, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So it s still good money, but to them, they re like, we re set for life, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because they re 20.
1
SPEAKER_00
So now is when Xander starts being like, we should drop out of college.
1
SPEAKER_00
We have money.
1
SPEAKER_00
We should.
1
SPEAKER_00
Do you think they should drop out?
1
SPEAKER_01
No, but that s because I m 40.
1
SPEAKER_01
But I guess if somebody were to offer me, so I m trying to be my 20-year-old self, and somebody s offering me hundreds of thousands of dollars to build my company, then heck yeah, I didn t really like college that much anyway, is probably what I would say to myself.
1
SPEAKER_00
Emmett is like, it seems smart to have a college degree.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to drop out.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like, isn t the goal of a computer science degree to drop out?
1
SPEAKER_00
Isn t this what all the greats have done?
1
SPEAKER_00
Emmett is like, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_00
You re kind of right.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Xander is so persuasive.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s so charismatic.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so he s like, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_00
We will.
1
SPEAKER_00
We re going to drop out. 
1
SPEAKER_00
And so they drop out of school.
1
SPEAKER_00
Where s our sound effect?
1
SPEAKER_00
They drop out in the spring of their junior year.
1
SPEAKER_00
The vaccine exists now.
1
SPEAKER_00
They get it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Very quickly, their roles are starting to become clear.
1
SPEAKER_00
Zander is doing a lot of coding.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s also meeting with investors.
1
SPEAKER_00
He is the face because he is the charismatic one.
1
SPEAKER_01
So he is the finder.
1
SPEAKER_01
They say in every business there s a minder, a finder, and a grinder.
1
SPEAKER_01
You can play different roles.
1
SPEAKER_00
Explain minder, finder, grinder so that the people will know.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, there s somebody who minds the business, who s kind of hands-on.
1
SPEAKER_01
If it is a coding-related company, they are actually coding, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Maybe sometimes.
1
SPEAKER_01
But really, I guess that s the role of the grinder.
1
SPEAKER_01
who s really kind of the foot soldier doing the labor, making the product that the company sells.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s the grinder.
1
SPEAKER_01
The minder is more, I suppose, in the operations role, making sure the taxes get paid, the bills get paid, that they hire whoever they need to hire.
1
SPEAKER_01
So that s minding the business.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then finder, that s the salesman, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Or saleswoman.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s the person who s out there, who s trying to make deals, collabs, new clients, all of that.
1
SPEAKER_01
So that s finding the business.
1
SPEAKER_01
So you can have a business, especially when it s two people, where somebody s the finder and the minder, and then somebody s the grinder and the minder, or, you know, you can shift roles.
1
SPEAKER_01
But it sounds like in this situation, that Xander is the what?
1
SPEAKER_00
He s the finder.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s his primary role.
1
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
Xander has become the finder, which means that
1
SPEAKER_00
Emmitt, in your scenario, is basically being both the minder and the grinder.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s doing marketing.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s making playlists.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s making every digital asset they need.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s making decks so that Xander can present them.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s troubleshooting the product.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s sending emails.
1
SPEAKER_00
They named their company, we have named their company, Micro, M-Y-C-R-O.
1
SPEAKER_01
It has to be a Z or a Y in there.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, you re right.
1
SPEAKER_01
micro with a Z at the end.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re right, micros.
1
SPEAKER_00
They named their company micros with a Z. Can you foresee any problems with this relationship dynamic?
1
SPEAKER_01
Of course.
1
SPEAKER_01
Founder relationships are notoriously difficult.
1
SPEAKER_01
Most of the time they end up firing each other.
1
SPEAKER_01
In this case, if you are Emmett, you re particularly set up to be aggrieved, because you are basically doing all the work.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you remember group projects in elementary and middle school.
1
SPEAKER_01
Essentially, he s the girl in the group, having to do all of the work, while the other one gets all the glory of being out there and glad-handing, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
In the beginning, they feel none of this, though.
1
SPEAKER_00
They re just exhilarated.
1
SPEAKER_00
They re like, all we do is work.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is great.
1
SPEAKER_00
We love it.
1
SPEAKER_00
One day, their fancy investor man is like, can I come visit you guys, see what you re up to?
1
SPEAKER_00
And they re like, totally.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then he has to come over to their weird pack cave.
1
SPEAKER_01
That smells of BO and rotting pizza crusts.
1
SPEAKER_01
And Coors Light.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
And he s like, listen, I think you guys have a really good idea, but you need to become a real company.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe change your sheets.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
How do you become a real company?
1
SPEAKER_00
hire, perhaps.
1
SPEAKER_00
And maybe move out of here.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, maybe get a fucking office, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like stop working out of your weird Ikea handhold apartment.
1
SPEAKER_00
So they get this office that s like downtown, it has glass windows, they get merch, they redo their logo, they have room to grow, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
There s also leftover from whatever company was there before them, a huge fish tank in this office.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Zander s like, I don t like fish.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t like the way they move.
1
SPEAKER_00
it freaks me out.
1
SPEAKER_00
They re suspicious.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett s like, okay, but like, we can t just leave this fish tank empty.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like, I have an idea.
1
SPEAKER_00
I ll take care of it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett s like, great.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s doing some of the binding.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Huge.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
What will happen?
1
SPEAKER_01
What is the big decoration decision that we have in store?
1
SPEAKER_00
Thank you for asking.
1
SPEAKER_00
It is a bunch of hermit crabs.
1
SPEAKER_00
No!
1
SPEAKER_00
Whose shells have the company logo painted on them.
1
SPEAKER_00
Stop it!
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, this guy is coming in with like 30 hermit crabs and like placing them into the tank.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett is like, you know, just like banging his head against the desk.
1
SPEAKER_00
And he s also like, how is it that you re freaked out by the way that fish move, but you re fine with hermit crabs?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, this is insane.
1
SPEAKER_01
Hermit crabs are so hard to keep alive too, because they have to stay in their shell.
1
SPEAKER_01
So you cannot mishandle them.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
If you pick up a hermit crab and accidentally turn it upside down, it s over.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s like dunzo.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re murdering a hermit crab because as soon as they fall out of their shell, they are done.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
But now our office has lots of hermit crabs.
1
SPEAKER_00
Those are their pets.
1
SPEAKER_00
The office begins hiring.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s hiring every girl that they know, just all of them.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because of this, the company s content marketing is great, and also they immediately have like a cult classic blog, but they still don t have enough coders, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So it s like, it s a classic scenario.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
I love this story.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
The problem is that Xander is really rapidly getting founder brain.
1
SPEAKER_00
Do you know what I m talking about here?
1
SPEAKER_00
Can you describe it?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s like teetering on megalomania.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s this belief that because you ve had a short track record of success, that your way of leadership is the right way.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you ve only run your one company though.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so there are no other examples.
1
SPEAKER_01
It is kind of a myopia.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s a lack of
1
SPEAKER_01
looking for outside perspective because you begin to become sort of narcissistic and certain of the way you re doing things.
1
SPEAKER_00
And also, for someone like Xander, it manifests in like, he starts wearing like a uniform that is like a t-shirt, a blazer, and a baseball hat.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so he s kind of creates his own personal style.
1
SPEAKER_01
He s trying to make himself into an icon.
1
SPEAKER_01
Got it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
He, like, starts drinking Soylent.
1
SPEAKER_00
He grows out his hair a little bit.
1
SPEAKER_00
He starts saying stuff like, you know, maybe Elizabeth Holmes was misunderstood.
1
SPEAKER_01
So he s becoming a caricature of a tech bro.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
So Xander is becoming, like, I would say worse, but some people might say just, like, more refined every day, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, he s listening to the great books on audiobook, but at, like, two times speed.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, the Blinkist version.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s like listening to like, you know, The Prince by Machiavelli in the original Italian and it s like, but you don t speak Italian.
1
SPEAKER_00
And he s like, yeah, but I m like, I m getting it.
1
SPEAKER_01
What about the other tech bro classics like Siddhartha and The Alchemist?
1
SPEAKER_00
For sure.
1
100%.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I also imagine that he s like listening to these things while he sleeps and being like, it s habit stacking.
1
SPEAKER_01
This poor guy, he sounds insufferable.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because of his megalomania, he also starts giving speeches at all of their meetings.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh no.
1
SPEAKER_00
And he views them as kind of the way a coach talks to a football team.
1
SPEAKER_00
But also the speeches make no sense.
1
SPEAKER_00
Clear eyes, full hearts.
1
SPEAKER_00
Can t lose.
1
SPEAKER_00
Can t lose.
1
SPEAKER_00
But worse than that, because he s 21 years old.
1
SPEAKER_00
So the speeches make no sense.
1
SPEAKER_01
But in their defense, they ve only hired a bunch of gals that they re friends with from college, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it s not like the employees know any better.
1
SPEAKER_01
No.
1
SPEAKER_00
They re all just vibing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Everyone s vibing.
1
SPEAKER_00
The hermit crabs are vibing.
1
SPEAKER_00
The hermit crabs are vibing.
1
SPEAKER_00
They re all... One important thing about this office is that something that they read in some article that was like how to start a company... On Forbes that somebody surely paid for.
1
SPEAKER_00
On Forbes, exactly, that someone got paid 12 cents for, was that you should have a feedback box.
1
SPEAKER_00
so that anybody can write feedback on a piece of paper and put it into the box.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, this is old school, like comments and suggestions that you could drop in at your local Arby s franchise.
1
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
So there s like some feedback that is like, you know, I want there to be better blinds because the sun s in my eyes all day.
1
SPEAKER_00
But there s
1
SPEAKER_00
also starting to be a few little slips in the suggestion box that are about Xander s speeches.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they re like, we don t like these speeches, they re bad.
1
SPEAKER_00
Do you tell Xander if you re in it and you ve seen these little slips of paper?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I gently find a way to tell him.
1
SPEAKER_01
I like practice.
1
SPEAKER_01
I might write out some notes.
1
SPEAKER_01
I might ask my therapist how to diplomatically talk to my co-founder about this.
1
SPEAKER_01
Do you think that these boys have therapists?
1
SPEAKER_01
They don t even have laundry, clearly, so.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
What Emmett has is a girlfriend.
1
SPEAKER_00
So he talks to Rita and is like, how do you think I could present this to Xander?
1
SPEAKER_00
And Rita s like, well, I would maybe be like really gentle with it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wouldn t give him the actual slips of paper.
1
SPEAKER_00
I would just like tell him, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, here s what we re hearing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
So one day, Emmett goes in there and he s like, Xander, I have to tell you about something.
1
SPEAKER_00
Xander s like, cool, close the door.
1
SPEAKER_00
I have something to ask you, too.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett s like, okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
So he sits down and he s like, I ve been reading the suggestion box.
1
SPEAKER_00
They say they don t like the speeches that much.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think you should cut them shorter.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Xander, to his credit, takes this really well.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s like, cool, no problem.
1
SPEAKER_00
I ll cut the speeches shorter.
1
SPEAKER_00
That seems reasonable.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t really know why I m giving them anyway.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, this went well.
1
SPEAKER_00
Uh-huh.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then he s like, hey, are you free tomorrow?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, could you take off tomorrow to help me with something?
1
SPEAKER_01
Xander asks Emmett.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett s like, no, I can t just take off tomorrow.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, one of us for sure has to be here.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, there are things to do.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you can t just randomly take off.
1
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like, oh, but I m like getting a little bit of an outpatient procedure.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, what kind of outpatient procedure?
1
SPEAKER_00
They are still living together.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is like important context.
1
SPEAKER_00
So he s like, you don t have any problems.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, what is going on with you?
1
SPEAKER_00
What Xander is getting is body hacking, where you get like a little thing put in your finger and then you can like open stuff with it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
I live in LA.
1
SPEAKER_01
There s people who do this.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
So he, Xander s like, this technology is so sick.
1
SPEAKER_00
I want to try it out.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is like getting the first iPod, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like he s like, I must have it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett is like, what are you going to do with it?
1
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like, I can open like doors.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like I can open our apartment.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can open the office.
1
SPEAKER_00
Emmett s like, but we don t even own our apartment.
1
SPEAKER_01
Don t you have to wire the other end of it?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like, listen, man, I just really want to do it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Are you going to help me or not?
1
SPEAKER_01
that I guess yes, sure.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I feel like this is kind of akin to somebody being very devout in a religion and essentially saying like, this is my thing, I believe in this.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I might not believe in the same thing, but I ll support my friend.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can respect it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, like I ll respect that.
1
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_01
All right, this is how you want to practice your, you know, religion of yourself.
1
SPEAKER_01
Your god technology.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you want to honor your biosphere.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, sure.
1
SPEAKER_00
Emmitt s like, I totally respect this man.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, I think it s super cool.
1
SPEAKER_00
He doesn t, but he s like, I think it s super cool.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m super happy for you.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s like, but one of us needs to be at the office.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, someone has to open the office.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I cannot go with you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
How are you feeling at this point?
1
SPEAKER_00
Let s check in.
1
SPEAKER_01
All of this seems logical.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I think this company is a hot mess, obviously, and they need some grownups to run it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, interesting you say that because the investor comes by the next week and he s like, I think that the two of you need like someone with authority.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, this is the point in which the investors come in or the board comes in and they install a CEO.
1
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so the investor is like, I think you need an adult in here, definitely at the C-suite level.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s like, my recommendation would be that you hire a CFO.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, somebody to oversee the finances.
1
SPEAKER_01
But wait, what happened with the biohacking?
1
SPEAKER_01
He got it.
1
SPEAKER_00
He got it.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then, and then Emmett didn t take him.
1
SPEAKER_01
He found somebody else to take him.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s like getting a ride to LASIK, I guess, only you re now hacking yourself so that you can open doors with your finger.
1
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
What do you think about hiring this person with authority?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, how do you pick someone?
1
SPEAKER_01
It has to be somebody who s not going to come in and, like, try and be the dad or the mom.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because these guys are going to be so sure of themselves and arrogant about their position and how much success that they have achieved on their own, that they re not going to want, they re immediately going to butt heads with somebody who s like,
1
SPEAKER_01
going to be contradicting them, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
So it has to be somebody who has an excellent bedside manner.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s all I ll say about how I think about the CFO role coming in.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think that s a really good idea.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think these guys are not thinking that.
1
SPEAKER_00
What they re thinking is mainly we are concerned about someone coming in and taking over our company.
1
SPEAKER_00
That is their main concern.
1
SPEAKER_00
So they re like, we want someone that we think won t take over our company and ruin it, that will let us be in charge of it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so one day at breakfast, Xander is like, Emmett, what do you think about bringing my dad on as CFO?
1
SPEAKER_01
Isn t it bad enough that they re roommates, that they re working with friends?
1
SPEAKER_01
You re not supposed to mix friends and money.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s even worse when you re mixing blood and money, like your family.
1
SPEAKER_00
Uh-huh.
1
SPEAKER_01
OK.
1
SPEAKER_01
Uh-huh.
1
SPEAKER_01
What do I think about it?
1
SPEAKER_01
I think bad decision.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yellow light.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yellow light.
1
SPEAKER_01
Slow down.
1
SPEAKER_00
OK.
1
SPEAKER_00
The pros of this is that Xander s dad is like Xander, like very charismatic, very persuasive guy that everyone likes.
1
SPEAKER_00
He believes in crypto and he does have experience like working in tech at a pretty high level.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so he was a CFO or?
1
SPEAKER_01
No.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
1
SPEAKER_00
He has worked for several failed tech companies.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett is like very sensitive to the fact that Xander still seems to be a little mad at him for not taking him to go to the biohacking event.
1
SPEAKER_01
See, this all goes back to trying to put some chips in your finger.
1
SPEAKER_01
Uh-huh.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so he s like, Xander s kind of mad at me for not taking him to this appointment.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I love Xander, and he s my best bro.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we just need an adult.
1
SPEAKER_00
So like, sure.
1
SPEAKER_00
Sure, anyone.
1
SPEAKER_00
Great.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that s how Xander s dad becomes the CFO of my gross
1
SPEAKER_00
The first problem is that Xander s dad starts pitching a fit because he doesn t like that he s always on every email after the two of them.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like the order of the CC line, he doesn t like.
1
SPEAKER_01
Ah, CC line politics.
1
SPEAKER_00
The second fit he pitches is because he doesn t like that people put their leftovers in the office fridge.
1
SPEAKER_01
where are they supposed to go?
1
SPEAKER_01
Do you want them out rotting on the table in the open air?
1
SPEAKER_01
Do you want them by the sink?
1
SPEAKER_01
Where does he want them instead?
1
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
The other problem is that this man is not doing any of the three.
1
SPEAKER_00
Theoretically, he could come in and be the minder and let Emmett only do the grinding.
1
SPEAKER_00
But instead he s come in and he just does nothing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wait, who s overseeing the finances?
1
SPEAKER_00
Isn t this supposed to be dad s role?
1
SPEAKER_00
Theoretically, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
So now they have to get every purchase approved by him.
1
SPEAKER_00
And he s in charge of all of this stuff, but it doesn t seem like he s working.
1
SPEAKER_00
All day he s just wandering around and making jokes and shit.
1
SPEAKER_00
Griping about leftovers in the fridge.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
This goes on four months, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, for several months, Emmett keeps going over to Rita s house and being like, I hate this man so much.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m losing my mind.
1
SPEAKER_00
He keeps, like, asking me all these, like, inane questions during the day and, like, disrupting what I need to do.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, this is such a problem.
1
SPEAKER_00
And he s also like, I m having a bad time living with Xander because, like, I m mad at his dad.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, like, none of this is working.
1
SPEAKER_00
And eventually, Rita is like,
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, you know, we ve been together for a little while like you.
1
SPEAKER_00
We could move in together.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh yes, yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
Let s complicate things further.
1
SPEAKER_01
What do you think?
1
SPEAKER_01
You know what?
1
SPEAKER_01
Let s just go for it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Let s just go for it and see what happens.
1
SPEAKER_01
Why?
1
SPEAKER_01
I m just open.
1
SPEAKER_01
This story sounds like such a hot mess.
1
SPEAKER_01
You have mixed the personal with the business so much in so many ways that can become problematic and if not downright toxic.
1
SPEAKER_01
You know what?
1
SPEAKER_01
Why not?
1
SPEAKER_01
Let s just go ahead and throw another wrench into it and see what happens.
1
SPEAKER_01
But you know what this means, obviously, it s a breakup between the two founders and their longtime living situation and the very situation that allowed them to give birth to this company in the first place.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that is the question here is how do you tell Xander?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And is he going to take it personally?
1
SPEAKER_00
Emmett is nervous about this for days.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, finally, he s like Rita and I s relationship is like getting really serious.
1
SPEAKER_00
And she has asked me to move in with her.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like, that s really great, man.
1
SPEAKER_00
Congratulations.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Imid s like, so that would mean that like, I m gonna move out of our apartment to live with Rita.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, is that okay?
1
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like, he s like, yeah, you know, I ve been like,
2
SPEAKER_00
thinking about getting my own place anyway, like getting a little bit of a bigger space and like something that s a little cooler.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett s like, okay, great.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love my best bro.
2
SPEAKER_00
Perfect.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then they just drink beers and they go home.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so this went much better than I anticipated.
2
SPEAKER_00
This went very well.
2
SPEAKER_00
Incredibly.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So Emmett moves out.
2
SPEAKER_00
He lives with Rita now.
2
SPEAKER_00
Things get better for the two of them interpersonally.
2
SPEAKER_00
because they start doing this thing where they, like, go and get a drink every week and talk about the company and talk about their problems.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, like, essentially they have a meeting for their relationship.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re checking it.
2
SPEAKER_01
I like this.
2
SPEAKER_00
But the problem is still Xander s dad, who is, like, hanging around and nitpicking and, like, leaning in doorframes and, like, making, you know, dad joke puns and, like, doing all these problems.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the suggestion box is filled with suggestions for Xander s dad.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh.
2
SPEAKER_01
Who s reviewing this?
2
SPEAKER_01
Emmett is reviewing it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Emmett is reviewing it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
What do you do here?
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, then you re gonna have to institute.
2
SPEAKER_01
Since they re doing these regular check-ins, what I would think is there s a great opportunity to also do a regular summary of what s in the
2
SPEAKER_00
Some are in the suggestion box.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, hey, since we re doing these regular check-ins, why don t we also do a regular temperature check?
2
SPEAKER_01
And every week, I ll bring you just a top-line summary of the two or three main themes that I m seeing out of the suggestion box.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s basically right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Emmett starts being like, here s what I ve seen, here s what the overall themes are, da-da-da-da-da.
2
SPEAKER_00
He gives this to Xander, one week, and Xander s like, okay, so the problem is that my dad is out on the floor too much, basically.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, he s disrupting people.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, instead of it being the problem is my dad, the problem is something my dad is doing.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, where he geographically is in the office is the problem.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so he doesn t quite see it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett s like,
2
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I would say that s a problem with your dad for sure.
2
SPEAKER_01
It falls under the general umbrella of dad as a problem.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like, okay, I ll talk to him about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, great.
2
SPEAKER_00
And he does like he watches the next day like Xander go into his dad s office and shut the door and for like a few days Xander s dad is better.
2
SPEAKER_01
All right.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that sounds like a good short term fix for what is a much larger albatross of a problem.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re making incremental changes though.
2
SPEAKER_01
Let s applaud these young lads.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, they re making incremental changes and the product is getting better, which means that they are now working all the time, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like he s at the office early, he s there late, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like he s never at home.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
Which Rita did not expect because Rita was like, we ll move in together and then I ll see you more.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, right.
2
SPEAKER_01
We ll have quality time.
2
SPEAKER_00
She didn t realize that Xander and Emmett weren t just like sitting on their couch watching movies at night.
2
SPEAKER_00
They were like still at the office.
2
SPEAKER_00
So one day Rita has a really bad day.
2
SPEAKER_00
And she texts Emmett and is like, Emmett, I had a really bad day.
2
SPEAKER_00
Could you like, bring me home a treat?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett s like, of course I can bring you home a treat.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, super easy, no problem.
2
SPEAKER_00
But by the time he leaves the office, everything s closed.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s late.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s so late.
2
SPEAKER_00
What do you do?
2
SPEAKER_01
Does his friend and co-founder Xander, who he spends all his time with, does Xander have any treats laying around?
2
SPEAKER_01
Could you raid Xander s house for something?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So he starts like looking around the office, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
And he s like, is there anything in Xander s desk?
2
SPEAKER_00
Is there anything in Xander s office?
2
SPEAKER_00
Is there anything in Xander s dad s desk?
2
SPEAKER_00
Is there anything in Xander s dad s office?
2
SPEAKER_00
No.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then he looks across the office and he s like, what about one of the hermit crabs?
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, my God.
2
SPEAKER_01
Could he bring her two hermit crabs as a treat?
2
SPEAKER_01
Whose shells are marked with the company s name on it?
2
SPEAKER_01
The company branded hermit crabs.
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you think this is a good treat?
2
SPEAKER_01
I thought what she wanted was a chocolate chip cookie, like a gigantic crumble cookie or like a gift certificate for a spa treatment.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think you re doing a really good job and you would be a great boyfriend.
2
SPEAKER_00
Emmett s like, let me put these two hermit crabs into one of the little cages that Xander brought them in.
2
SPEAKER_01
No one can see this, but I am just shaking my head slowly.
2
SPEAKER_00
He brings them home.
2
SPEAKER_01
Just the most withering, slow head shake.
2
SPEAKER_00
Rita is like, this is not only not a treat, this is something that you got from your office that has the company logo on it.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is not what I wanted.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett is like, I did really want to get you a treat.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everything was closed by the time I left the office.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Rita s like, but you could have left earlier.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett s like, you re right.
2
SPEAKER_00
I did think you would like these, though, because you like animals and you like things that are cute and small.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but is a Kermit crab a cute and small, sweet animal?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Rita is like, I m going to bed.
2
SPEAKER_01
OK, so it s just kind of cold in the house.
2
SPEAKER_00
Things are cold everywhere.
2
SPEAKER_00
Things are rapidly devolving.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, no.
2
SPEAKER_00
Xander stops.
2
SPEAKER_00
He starts canceling their drinks sometimes.
2
SPEAKER_00
when they re supposed to get them.
2
SPEAKER_00
And he s like, Oh, sorry, man, I just have like a lot of shit to do.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m busy.
2
SPEAKER_01
Signs of a slow fade.
2
SPEAKER_01
Uh huh.
2
SPEAKER_00
Xander s dad is becoming more preposterous every minute, like he programs a slack bot so that whenever anyone says beer, it like auto generates a military quote about discipline.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s a nightmare in there.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Xander is getting, he s just like becoming more and more elusive.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like they re supposed to go to drinks, he doesn t show up.
2
SPEAKER_00
He keeps giving Emmett like shit for stupid little mistakes he s making.
2
SPEAKER_00
He keeps like freaking out over what the receptionist is ordering for lunch, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like all of a sudden he s like in the minding game.
2
SPEAKER_00
More and more suggestions are going into the box.
2
SPEAKER_01
But now there s no outlet to receive the suggestions because they are not even meeting regularly.
2
SPEAKER_00
A few weeks later, Emmett gets home from work at like 10pm and Rita is crying.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh no.
2
SPEAKER_00
And he s like, oh no.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s like, what happened?
2
SPEAKER_00
Did something happen to the hermit crabs?
2
SPEAKER_00
One of the hermit crabs is dead.
2
SPEAKER_00
I told you how fragile they were! 
2
SPEAKER_00
And Imit is like, I thought you hated the hermit crabs.
2
SPEAKER_00
I thought they weren t a nice treat and that you didn t like them.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Rita s like, they grew on me.
2
SPEAKER_00
They were so cute.
2
SPEAKER_00
They were always walking around.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes they held their little claws together.
2
SPEAKER_00
I loved them and now one of them s dead.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s like, and I think the other one killed it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett looks over there, and one of the hermit crabs is holding the claw of the other hermit crab.
2
SPEAKER_00
No!
2
SPEAKER_00
It was a murder?
2
SPEAKER_00
It was murdered.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god, that s so much more tragic and violent.
2
SPEAKER_00
Emmett is like, this is awful.
2
SPEAKER_00
I brought this treat, then I didn t get credit for the treat, and it upset my girlfriend, and now one of our hermit crabs is like a murderer and has murdered the other hermit crab.
2
SPEAKER_00
Dude, why don t you just get some cheap chocolate at the Texaco station?
2
SPEAKER_00
Rita is crying.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s like, and also,
2
SPEAKER_00
Hermit crabs will die of loneliness.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like they have to be in groups.
2
SPEAKER_00
So now the other one will die.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, no.
2
SPEAKER_01
So you didn t know this about me because it s not in any bio, but I am a former hermit crab owner.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so when you brought up
2
SPEAKER_01
that they got a bunch of hermit crabs in this story.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s how I knew they were so fragile because it s very easy to kill a hermit crab.
2
SPEAKER_01
And actually one of my formative memories of childhood, we were also talking about kind of like how girls can be mean to each other in fourth or fifth grade, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
My fifth grade frenemy killed my hermit crab.
2
SPEAKER_01
by dropping a body out of the shell.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so I know you really are identifying with Rita here.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I really identify with Rita.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is a tragic story, especially when one killed the other.
2
SPEAKER_00
Gosh, what do you think Emmett should do here?
2
SPEAKER_01
First of all, really focus on consoling and connecting with Rita.
2
SPEAKER_01
Even though he may not take the experience that she s having with the death or the murder, the suspicious death.
2
SPEAKER_01
of a hermit crab, and the imminent death of the other, right, and the imminent death, the likely imminent death of the other, as seriously, he needs to be there for her in this time.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like he needs to really validate her experience, because this is real.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, look at me, like 30 years after my hermit crab was murdered.
2
SPEAKER_00
I did not know.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m not over it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I m sorry to bring this up.
2
SPEAKER_01
Of course you wouldn t know about it.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve never talked about it in any
2
SPEAKER_01
I love this show so much.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s only because of this serendipitous invitation to be on Normal Gossip that I am now processing the depth of your poor hermit crab.
2
SPEAKER_00
Emmett is like, I don t really know how to handle this scenario, but what do you need from me?
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, that s good.
2
SPEAKER_00
What do you need from me in this scenario?
2
SPEAKER_00
And she s like, I think I just need you to
2
SPEAKER_00
be with me. 
2
SPEAKER_00
She s like, and I want to bury the hermit crab.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Emmet s like, okay, when do you want to do that?
2
SPEAKER_00
And she s like, I want to do it tomorrow.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Emmet s like, okay, so do you need me to take the day off work?
2
SPEAKER_00
And she s like, yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Emmet s like, okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
He agrees to take his day off work, even though it s very difficult for him to take off work, given the high stakes of their startup.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you like this plan?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, take the day off work.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, bury the hermit crab.
2
SPEAKER_01
Give it a proper goodbye.
2
SPEAKER_00
So he writes an email that night that s like, you know, I m going to be out for the day.
2
SPEAKER_00
He doesn t give a specific reason.
2
SPEAKER_00
He like makes it sound vaguely like a family emergency, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
And he schedules it to send in the morning.
2
SPEAKER_00
They have a great day.
2
SPEAKER_00
They paint a picture of a hermit crab on a rock, and they go bury the hermit crab, and then they put the little rock on top of it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, this is sweet.
2
SPEAKER_00
They go out to dinner.
2
SPEAKER_00
They have a great day.
2
SPEAKER_00
Brita s like, I m feeling a lot better.
2
SPEAKER_00
Thank you so much.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s nice.
2
SPEAKER_00
The next day.
2
SPEAKER_00
Emmitt wakes up and he has a Slack notification from Xander s dad.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, God.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the Slack says, and I quote, from this point forward, you need to be at work from 9am to 5pm every day or face disciplinary action.
2
SPEAKER_00
Stop.
2
SPEAKER_01
from this clown show of a CFO.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, nobody respects this guy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And he has nothing to do with the founding of the company.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you re in it.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re like up to your eyeballs in fury and resentment.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you re like, I m the only one that actually does anything.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like your dad does nothing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Xander just like flits around and looks pretty and has parties in his new loft.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, what do you do?
2
SPEAKER_01
You go to the investor and be like, I can see this coming.
2
SPEAKER_01
a hundred miles away that the new CFO that we ve installed is problematic and I need to tell you about it now. 
2
SPEAKER_01
So you essentially signpost that shit s going to hit the fan so that you have an ally before the shit hits the fan.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you forgot that Emmett is now like 22 years old.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know, I keep imagining him to be a little bit more worldly.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, you want him to have experience.
2
SPEAKER_00
But the problem with these startups is a lot of times they don t.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so Emmett is like, I fucking like, I ve had enough of this shit.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, I m done.
2
SPEAKER_00
I hate this.
2
SPEAKER_00
So he s gonna do something impetuous instead.
2
SPEAKER_00
Awesome.
2
SPEAKER_00
Emmett takes the living hermit crab back to the office because he s like, he s gonna die of loneliness.
2
SPEAKER_00
I need to take him back to the office.
2
SPEAKER_00
He goes storming into the office.
2
SPEAKER_00
He goes straight into Xander s office.
2
SPEAKER_00
Xander s like, why do you have a hermit crab in a little box?
2
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett s like, that is not important right now.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like, but you do have a hermit crab in a little box.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s crazy.
2
SPEAKER_00
What are you doing with it?
2
SPEAKER_00
And Emmett is like, that s not why I m here.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s like, Xander, why are you having your dad send me disciplinary Slack messages for taking one day off?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, let s focus on the heart of the matter.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like, I don t know, man, you should have been here.
2
SPEAKER_00
You didn t even tell me you weren t gonna be here.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, I m sorry I didn t tell you that I wasn t gonna be here, but I needed to be with Rita.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was a hard day.
2
SPEAKER_00
What are you talking about?
2
SPEAKER_00
I thought this was a partnership.
2
SPEAKER_00
Why wouldn t you come to me personally and be like, why are you taking a day off?
2
SPEAKER_01
And don t we have a degree of leniency with one another as co-founders?
2
SPEAKER_01
Come on.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like,
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe this isn t a partnership anymore.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, whoa.
2
SPEAKER_00
Plot twist.
2
SPEAKER_00
Emmett is like...
2
SPEAKER_00
What do you mean, maybe it s not a partnership anymore?
2
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like, I mean, if you don t take this seriously, and if you keep having all these problems, maybe you just don t belong here.
2
SPEAKER_01
Wait, what all these problems?
2
SPEAKER_01
He took one day off, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
So this is not a pattern of behavior.
2
SPEAKER_01
It is one day he had to go be with his girlfriend, despite being the one guy who makes the product of this company.
2
SPEAKER_00
Zander s like, I think what needs to happen is I think you need to be put on basically a discipline protocol to improve your performance.
2
SPEAKER_00
He can t even do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Emmitt is like, if this isn t a partnership, if I m being put on a discipline protocol, I fucking quit.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Zander s like, what?
2
SPEAKER_00
And Emmitt s like, I quit, man.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m not doing this anymore.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I would do the same thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
I am now firmly Team Emmitt.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sander looks miserable, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like he s crying.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s like, man, don t quit.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, no, like, I m done with this.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to deal with your dad anymore.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m out of here.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
He does quit, like he actually quits.
2
SPEAKER_00
He does not go back.
2
SPEAKER_00
He watches from a distance over the next year as like things deteriorate, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like a few people get laid off and then a few more.
2
SPEAKER_00
And he sees the company like disintegrating.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then one day he like logs on to Instagram and he sees that Xander has posted what is clearly like, you know, when tech pros try to brand a failure as a pivot?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
That.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve decided to move on.
2
SPEAKER_00
An Imid feels very vindicated.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s like, I knew that I was doing the minding and grinding.
2
SPEAKER_00
I knew that you and your fucking dad couldn t do it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s schadenfreude.
2
SPEAKER_01
He s feeling schadenfreude.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, awesome.
2
SPEAKER_01
Good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
We are almost at the end.
2
SPEAKER_00
How do you feel?
2
SPEAKER_00
What do you think?
2
SPEAKER_01
I feel like this is a story that has probably played out anonymously many times with these sort of characters.
2
SPEAKER_01
except San s hermit crab.
2
SPEAKER_01
The hermit crabs really add a lot to my experience of this.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I remain, my allegiances are the same.
2
SPEAKER_01
I remain on Team Emmett that the bringing in the dad was a poor decision.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think that we could see that coming.
2
SPEAKER_01
And
2
SPEAKER_01
you know what, we don t need yet another crypto company.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like the world is not missing yet another crypto company.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I m okay with this, the failure of this particular firm too.
2
SPEAKER_01
All right, so generally I m feeling good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, I have some updates for you.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, oh dear.
2
SPEAKER_01
A few months ago.
2
SPEAKER_01
So the company folded.
2
SPEAKER_01
So just to bring us up to speed.
2
SPEAKER_01
The company folded.
2
SPEAKER_01
The company folded.
2
SPEAKER_01
The relationship between the friend also folded, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
The roommate?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
The relationship with the girlfriend is intact?
2
SPEAKER_01
Still intact.
2
SPEAKER_00
OK.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that he can still take from this time of his life.
2
SPEAKER_01
He s learned a lot.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I want to note that it s painful, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because it s like, this is the company you founded, and it s also like,
2
SPEAKER_00
your first friendship breakup, which is never good.
2
SPEAKER_00
No, no.
2
SPEAKER_00
So a few months ago, Emmett goes to like an accelerator.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay, because he still wants to come up with something.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And he sees across the room, Xander.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you go say hi?
2
SPEAKER_01
I think you re obligated to say hi.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you think so?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, just to be civil.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I keep I keep being the adult and saying like adult strategic things, because I ve been 20 years older than these people.
2
SPEAKER_01
Does he say hi?
2
SPEAKER_00
I think he has grown up a little bit, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, this is a hard experience.
2
SPEAKER_00
It forces you to grow up.
2
SPEAKER_00
So he sees Xander across the room at this accelerator and he s like, I need to say hi to this guy, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, he was my college roommate.
2
SPEAKER_00
We founded a company together.
2
SPEAKER_00
So he goes over and Xander, like, lights up to see him.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, huge smile.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, I feel really, really happy to see my friend, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, after all of this time.
2
SPEAKER_00
Zander s like, it s so good to see you, man.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, we should play a video game sometime, like old times.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, I can t believe we stopped doing that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you think that they should play video games together?
2
SPEAKER_00
and not do business?
2
SPEAKER_00
Sure, not do business.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, let s just play video games and keep it at video games.
2
SPEAKER_01
Let s have the right level of friendship.
2
SPEAKER_00
A few weeks later, they get on a call.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re playing their video games, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
They have their little like headsets on so they can talk to each other.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
And because maybe it s because they re like not looking at each other.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re able to have like a real conversation.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, and Emmett is like, why did you have your dad send that message?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, he decides to bring up that old issue.
2
SPEAKER_00
Uh-huh.
2
SPEAKER_00
And there s like a long pause on the other end.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like, I mean, man, there are a lot of mistakes with bringing my dad in.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, yes, good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Xander s like, I think honestly, like, I was just jealous that you took the day off to like, be with Rita.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you didn t take the day off when I needed you to.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, about the biohacking?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s about the biohacking!
2
SPEAKER_01
This company!
2
SPEAKER_01
That was already a house of cards.
2
SPEAKER_01
It wasn t all the other messed up factors that brought it down, but it was that one founder didn t give the other founder a ride to go get a chip installed in his finger.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, correct.
2
SPEAKER_00
Of course.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s stunned, but he s also like, I m really sorry, man.
2
SPEAKER_00
I didn t mean to diss you like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, I should have taken you to get the biohacking done.
3
SPEAKER_00
Xander s like, thanks fam, that means a lot.
3
SPEAKER_00
and just think this could be a multi-million dollar company that the investors are all like reaping the rewards to this day.
3
SPEAKER_00
And maybe the crypto ecosystem is better off because of it.
3
SPEAKER_00
But today it doesn t exist because one guy didn t give the other guy a ride to biohacking, but he did give his girlfriend a day off to bury their hermit crab.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, it s so funny that what brought us down in the end was that like, I didn t
3
SPEAKER_01
take you to get biohacked, like that s what killed the company.
3
SPEAKER_01
And Xander s like, oh, that s not what killed the company.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, and Emmett s like, what, what killed the company?
3
SPEAKER_01
What did kill the company?
3
SPEAKER_01
His father was doing embezzlement.
3
SPEAKER_00
Of course he was.
3
SPEAKER_00
But of course he was because what was he doing this whole time with all that money anyway?
3
SPEAKER_00
Uh-huh.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
So they were running illegal fraud schemes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Xander s like, I m so sorry, man.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, I shouldn t have hired my dad.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, I ve had a weight on me that I needed to like, confess this to you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, my God.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s like,
3
SPEAKER_01
I have something that I need to confess to you, too.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s smaller, but it is important. 
3
SPEAKER_01
And Xander s like, okay, man, what is it?
3
SPEAKER_01
And Imit s like, you know how early on there were all those suggestions about how you should stop giving speeches?
3
SPEAKER_01
And Xander s like, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And Imit s like, I wrote them.
3
SPEAKER_01
I wrote all of them.
3
SPEAKER_00
don t think it s on the same level as financial fraud.
3
SPEAKER_01
But this is like a healing.
3
SPEAKER_01
And now our boys have been healed.
3
SPEAKER_01
And they are able to be friends.
3
SPEAKER_01
The final updates I have for you are that sometimes Xander reaches out and it s like, do you want to start this thing with me, man?
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, no, no, no, bro.
3
SPEAKER_00
Nah, brah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he and Rita did break up.
3
SPEAKER_01
They are not still together.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I ve been told that it was very amicable.
3
SPEAKER_01
And Rita now lives on like an animal farm.
3
SPEAKER_00
So she made it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Of course she did.
3
SPEAKER_00
And hopefully surrounded by many, many hermit crabs.
3
SPEAKER_01
How do you feel at the end of this story?
3
SPEAKER_00
What I love is that in the end, everybody came clean.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, the level of misdeeds were clearly not the same.
3
SPEAKER_00
There is no sort of moral equivalence between embezzlement and then stuffing a suggestion box.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I do love that they were able to A, reconcile in the end, and then B, everybody sort of speak their truth.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I m so glad that everybody s alive except for that one murder victim, Hermit Crabb.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, he was a sacrifice.
3
SPEAKER_01
Elyse, thank you so much for coming on the show.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was a pleasure to have you.
3
SPEAKER_00
I had so much fun.
3
SPEAKER_00
What an awesome story.
3
SPEAKER_00
And God bless friendships from college.
3
SPEAKER_01
This podcast is produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin and Ozzy Linas Goodman.
3
SPEAKER_01
Justin Ellis is Defector s Projects Editor.
3
SPEAKER_01
Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defector s Business Guys.
3
SPEAKER_01
Tom Ley is our Editor-in-Chief.
3
SPEAKER_01
Jay Tolviera is our Associate Producer.
3
SPEAKER_01
Abigail Siegel is our intern.
3
SPEAKER_01
Dan McQuaid runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store.
3
SPEAKER_01
Tara Jacoby designed our show art.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thank you to Jasper Wang, Catherine Hsu, Patrick Redford, Israel Deramola, Ray Rado, Chris Thompson, David Roth, Dave McKenna, and Luis Pais Pumar for your help on this season.
3
SPEAKER_01
And thanks to the rest of the Defector staff.
3
SPEAKER_01
Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber based media company and Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia.
3
SPEAKER_01
Subscribe to Normal Gossip on Pocket Casts or wherever else you listen.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m Kelsey McKinney and please remember, you did not hear this from me.