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Welcome everybody to the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest running sales training podcast in the history of podcasts.
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My name is Brian Neal.
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I m Bill Kasky.
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Here every week for your listening enjoyment.
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If you re new, welcome.
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If you re not new, welcome back.
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We re glad that you re here.
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We have a LinkedIn group.
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Go to LinkedIn.
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LinkedIn, just find the Advanced Selling Podcast Group.
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There s 13, almost 14,000 people in there now, listeners.
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We re doing lots of fun stuff.
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We might, we ll see.
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We kind of left this a little loose.
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Bill and I might start dropping midweek episodes, just because we feel like it.
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Because we both love podcasting, and Bill might flip his mic on sometime and drop an episode on a Thursday or a Tuesday, and I might do that.
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So stay tuned.
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That s a little tease.
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Yeah.
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And we might not.
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We will.
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We will do.
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Well, I think we talked about it.
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I just haven t gotten to it.
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I haven t either.
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That s OK.
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Yeah, we ll see.
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But I just want to warn people in case that happens here in the next six months.
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Yeah.
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At least once.
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And we re thrilled you re here with us every week.
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So in the spirit of content making, we ve been content making for a long time, Bill.
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There was something going on in the sales world that I want your opinion on that has to do with social media.
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And it s a social media term has jumped away from Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok into LinkedIn.
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It is the word influencer.
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And there was a big sales influencer meetup, a bunch of younger people.
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It s great.
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They all got in a big house, 25 of them.
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I think they re all salespeople, AEs, and maybe whatever.
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And it s great.
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They did their content stuff.
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I m a little concerned that the persona of an influencer makes its way to LinkedIn.
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I feel like it gets away from the meat and the goodness and the soul of what LinkedIn is really for, which is sharing at depth really, really good content, not for content sake, but for the sake of the listeners and that sort of thing.
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I feel like sometimes influencers  job is to, their job is to get as many eyeballs as possible.
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That s the job of the influencer, get as many followers and eyeballs as possible, and not to produce really great stuff for the right people at the right time.
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So there s such a thing now as a sales influencer on LinkedIn, Bill, do you think we are sales influencers?
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I think so.
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I m a little hung up on it.
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Yeah.
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Without trying to be?
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I mean, do we fit the persona?
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Do we need to start dancing?
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I mean, do we need to do like a TikTok here?
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Like, get it up?
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Bill can dance.
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One thing about Bill, he sticks it.
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He does, though.
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Like, you go to a concert with Bill, Bill does not hold back, which I appreciate.
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Let s see.
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How do I feel about the word influencer and making its way to LinkedIn?
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Or that persona, yeah.
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Here s what I think about LinkedIn right now.
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OK.
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Is that there s only 3% of the people on LinkedIn that are creating content for LinkedIn.
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Now, content, a thing like an article, a video, even a quote graphic, the rest of us are just liking, sharing, or commenting on that content.
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So I m not saying people aren t active on LinkedIn.
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They re not active creating original content.
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The 3% are.
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And of the 3%, 90% of that is garbage.
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It s just awful.
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You said that the whole purpose of LinkedIn was to learn.
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I don t know.
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I think LinkedIn s full of trash, and it s just full of garbage.
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I mean, it s all very pitchy.
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It s all very pitchy, which is fine.
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But the algorithm surely doesn t reward pitchiness over good quality content.
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So I think that the way to be influential on LinkedIn and be an influencer, even though I m not crazy about that either, is to create something original.
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Put something out there that is interesting and compelling and educational and maybe entertaining and maybe all four.
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Most people don t.
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Most people don t.
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Yes.
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Would you agree with that?
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Most people don t.
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And what, and then I think that s, we ve, we ve jumped, there s a gap here.
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We ve jumped over.
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Most people don t, but those that do are doing it for the attention, not for the real strong intention of, they re looking for attention instead of intention.
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They re going after attention instead of intention.
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Intention to me is I create a dialogue and a connection with people that I operate with on LinkedIn.
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I talk back and forth.
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I learn.
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And some of these influencer group people are doing that.
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Just that whole concept of influencer, if you kind of look at it in other socials, Facebook, Instagram, the others.
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is mostly about eyeballs.
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Now, you obviously get eyeballs from either entertaining and that sort of thing.
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But most of those things are that.
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They re entertaining.
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They re funny, which is fine.
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There s a place for that.
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I love Corporate Bro.
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He s hilarious.
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It s fantastic.
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But a lot are out of business.
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You know what I mean?
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A lot of those guys don t make much money.
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They don t make any money.
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No, because they can t monetize, because they haven t created anything that s worth selling.
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Yeah, they get paid by brands.
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So, you know, Barbasol pays, you know, Jocko Willink to do a commercial.
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Okay.
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Well, that s probably worth a fair amount of money.
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I don t know.
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But, but most, if you re not Jocko Willink and don t have 10 million viewers or, or Mr. Beast or, um, who did I saw?
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Oh, um, Chris, uh, who s the boxer, the fighter Chris Paul.
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Um, Oh yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Logan.
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Who is it?
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Logan Paul.
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Who is it?
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Nikki knows.
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Jake and Logan Paul, Jake, Jake.
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I m not sure which, which one it is, but he s got four and a half million viewers on Instagram.
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And I saw the other night he did a, he did a thing with Vivek, uh, you know, kind of a joint thing.
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And I thought, you know, like Vivek or not, that s pretty smart to get in front of his, but, but what is,
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Again, Logan Paul and Jake Paul, with that many, probably have figured out a way to monetize it.
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They have, yeah.
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They have 10,000 people, and you don t have their email addresses?
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Or you don t have any way to convert that from a view on LinkedIn to an email?
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Yes.
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It s not going to make you any money.
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No, it s not a business.
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And it s so much time spent trying to do something just to get eyeballs.
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But those eyeballs are there.
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And again, you re talking about if,
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if 20 people start, a half of a person is going to get to that level.
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Maybe that s right.
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Not eat.
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You know what I mean?
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So, so if you re looking at what to do with your time, I would just be really careful with that.
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If that s the path you re going down, like I m going to be an animal.
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Who are you influencing?
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You know what I mean?
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And what influence how like, like, learn, teach, engage, that sort of thing.
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Maybe I m just like, yeah, word.
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I think you re hung up on the word a little bit.
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But I don t think it s wrong to be hung up on the word because that the word itself is the problem, right?
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I m not looking to influence people.
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Yeah, I m looking to engage and learn and share.
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I don t there s no part of me that s trying to influence anybody at all.
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That s one way to build it.
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And that may not be wrong.
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But or are you doing it with, you know, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money.
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intelligent thought and profound wisdom and concepts and helping and engaging and having a webinar here and there, that to me is much more useful, especially in the B2B space.
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Right, right.
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Anyway.
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Yeah, okay.
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Funny.
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Well, I had a funny story, but we ll save that till next time.
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All right.
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Yeah, my topic today is we live in a world, and we ve talked about this, we talked about it late last year, where sometimes we re a little bit reluctant to say the truth, to say what we really feel.
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And that is totally good.
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It s good that we re reluctant, because sometimes we just shouldn t say what we re thinking.
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Yes.
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But other times, it might get us in trouble by holding back and not saying what needs to be said.
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And I thought it would be interesting to have a conversation about, as coaches who are consultants and trainers and coaches and business owners, I m sure there are times where we have things we want to say that we don t say.
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Maybe not as many today as there were 30 years ago, but even still today, there s things that I want to say, but I just don t.
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And I thought it might be useful, because I think our listeners also have those things.
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And they start to eat at you if you let them.
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If you don t get those out to somebody, they can start to take a toll on you, especially if it s something you feel really strongly about.
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So I thought we d go down that path and see what s at the end of it.
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I think it s great.
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And I think in the prep, because Bill and I did like hours, days worth of prep on this topic before pre-show, right?
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Multiple meetings, multiple drafts of the storyboard.
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That s not true.
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Something did come up, though.
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This is not like a back and forth tips episode.
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This is a self-exploration episode.
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This is really more in your head, heart, and soul than it is in your tactics.
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And I think that, to me, is the driver.
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And all of you, all of us,
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have situations like that.
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If you re a salesperson, you have questions that you wanted to ask, and the sales call ends, and you didn t ask them.
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You wanted to bring up the cost or say something about the financial side of the deal or the economics, and you didn t.
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You re like, why didn t I do that?
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Or you wanted to push back, and you didn t.
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That s what we re exploring today, those times when I wanted to say something, left, and felt I should have and didn t.
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And what s the inhibition?
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What s holding us back that s in the way of that?
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You just brought up two or three there that are problems.
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Absolutely.
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Like the money, anything around money or economics is one of those things that we re reluctant to bring up.
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And if you re reluctant, you re reluctant for a reason.
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And we know better.
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When we re reluctant, that is something we should bring up.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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So I think back, as we talked about this topic going in, I thought about my own career here in sales coaching.
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I was 27 years old when I started doing this.
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And I think about what I was scared to death to say to a leader of a company, to a CEO.
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I was talking to her, and she s like, da, da, da, da, da.
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And I d think something I wouldn t say, because I was scared of her.
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I was scared of not just her.
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I was scared of losing the deal, scared of pissing her off, those sorts of things.
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There was much more fear-based stuff.
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So I went down the agreeable path.
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Oh, I agree.
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Oh, totally.
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Yeah, I agree.
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And she could have changed her mind in the middle of the thing, and I would have gone right with her.
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Like, it s cloudy out.
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I m like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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It s actually sunny.
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Actually, yeah, the way I think about it, I think, yeah, I see what you re saying there.
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That was my MO.
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It s all about, you know what I mean, preservation.
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And over a lot of personal work and over years of
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just experience, learned that the way more valuable thing to do is to hold your own truth and be very comfortable in it no matter what.
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Now I feel, and so this is the path you re probably on, I feel now a duty to share things.
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If a CEO has hired me and entrusted the coaching and the operations of his sales or her sales team, and I see something that s wrong, I have a duty to share that with the CEO, even if it s the CEO that s the problem.
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Even if I had a dinner conversation over a year ago with one of my longest running clients, highest revenue client with the CEO.
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And this thing had been, you said earlier, Bill, it festers if you don t say it.
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This had been festering for a while.
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We were at dinner together, his senior leadership team, our senior leadership team.
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And I just said, and I m like, just when it just came out.
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And it was basically about the way he leads.
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and not giving people space to say things.
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And you say, you know, and it was like, no one, it was like dead silent.
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Because everybody knew it.
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Everybody knew it.
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And he goes, huh?
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He goes, do you guys think that?
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His senior leadership team.
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And here it goes, right?
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Well, yeah, there s still a little something.
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I m like, look, man, I m telling you this because I love you and I want you to do well.
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And it s one person s opinion.
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I m not saying it s right.
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It s my experience, that sort of thing.
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You know what that guy did over the next year?
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He 100% on his own accord changed the way that he led.
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He 100% stepped aside.
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So that hit a nerve with him in a good way, I think.
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And I was terrified when I said, I m like, OK, this is the end of this deal.
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But it wasn t.
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It wasn t.
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It was the beginning.
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I gathered you all together for a celebration of the last meal.
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This is it.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Of course.
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Yeah.
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So Peter, Mark, John, Paul, come over here.
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Bring the chalice.
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Where s the chalice?
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Well, it wasn t that.
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Yeah.
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But a guy is a guy like that is CEO for a reason.
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It s because he s got some courage and he s got some ability and capability and he wants to be better.
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You don t get to CEO if you re not improving yourself every day, or at least at some point you were.
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So the very, it doesn t surprise me at all that he said,
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Really?
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OK.
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Done.
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Fixed.
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Let s go.
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What s our next topic?
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And he was going to go about doing it.
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And he did it.
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But most of us, when put in that situation, especially in a public shaming like you like to do, Mike, is to get defensive.
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Well, I did that then, but you ve got to understand what was going on in my life.
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And my child was sick, and I was sick.
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So don t get defensive.
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When you hire a coach like Brian, or I, or anybody, and they tell you, now, if you re going to be a coach, you ve got to be a coach.
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I wouldn t just take their word for it.
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But in this case, he asked other people around the table, said, is this true?
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And so he got a little bit of confirmation on it.
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But listen, and everything you hear, you know, sometimes, OK, before I rant, I ll shut up here.
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Sometimes when I m listening to a speech or a YouTube video or a podcast, somebody will say something that connects.
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Like, oh, man.
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I need to hear that, or I needed to hear that, or I ve never thought about that that way.
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If it connects with you, and it may be something on the Advanced Selling Podcast.
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17 years ago, we said something.
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I haven t said anything since.
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Connects with.
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That s an indication that you need work there, or you need to explore that further.
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If it s an idea, oh my god, I never thought about that.
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Write it down.
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If anything connects with you when you listen and consume, there s something there.
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And I think it s the same thing what we re talking about here is if you hear something today that speaks to you when it comes to reluctance, then do some diligence on it.
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Yes, 100%.
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Um, there s another, uh, kind of a lane of things that I think I know I was fearful of.
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And I think a lot of salespeople are fearful of, and that is going down the path of asking questions or exploring things that may feel personal or none of my business about my buyer.
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The biggest easy example for us and where Bill and I work is if we re in a privately held company and it s doing your last episode, he talked about a guy doing a hundred million dollars.
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He wants to come in, you know,
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One of the things that I always wondered but never asked for 20-plus years is, what is that guy s exit plan?
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Is he looking to sell this business?
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And if he s going to sell it, who s he going to sell it to?
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Does he have kids he wants to sell it to?
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Is he going to sell it to his employees, to private equity, to a strategic buyer?
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And I always justified that.
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That s really none of my business.
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If he wants me to know that, he ll tell me.
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And you think, well, why do you want to know that?
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Well, that s a huge motivating factor for someone if they re in that mode.
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And what else I ve found is people that are in that mode, they are looking for people around them to trust and to talk about that.
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And when you re doing something like that, there s not many people.
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You probably have a lawyer or maybe a business advisor, but it s nice to have someone that s in the weeds with them that understands their business.
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It s also has an ear toward or an eye toward getting this thing ready for its next generational deal.
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Either the second generation owns it or private equity, whatever, it doesn t matter.
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But I was always scared, like things on a different level.
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If you re a salesperson, you re calling on someone who is a VP title, let s say.
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I was always scared to ask them what their career path was.
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I m like, well, none of my business.
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That s personal.
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That s kind of intrusive to Bill.
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But I tell you what, you go there.
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I say, so Bill, you re VP for, what, three years now.
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So what s your next two career moves here?
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No one asks people that.
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And when you ask people that, they re like, oh, thanks for asking.
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I ve got my sight set.
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I want to be the CEO in the next five years.
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And for whatever reason, the timing doesn t work for that, my next path is to go buy my own business and run it.
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And nobody, no other salesperson knows that except you.
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It s an instant connection with the person on a human personal level that I think is really hard for people to do and very important.
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Yeah, I love that.
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I love that.
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And even if that person says, I have no idea, you ve introduced the topic.
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Maybe if he or she really does have no idea, maybe that s part of the next conversation is maybe you have a consultant that you ve worked with who helps people figure that out that you could turn them on to.
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Or maybe there s a book or a podcast.
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But they don t know to go look for it because they ve never been posed the question before until you showed up in their life.
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Yes, that s a thing.
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Yeah, just because there s no answer doesn t mean there s no answer.
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It s not on the surface for them.
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So I love that.
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Here s a couple of things that drive me nuts, and I don t.
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And the salespeople may be good, maybe not, but I m working with them.
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But the company is putting out marketing and putting out messaging that just is awful.
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And it s me, me, me, me, me, me, and the colors.
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And again, I m not a branding expert, but I know it when I see it.
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It s just awful.
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And I m not a marketing expert, but I know it when I see it.
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And it s just awful.
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And I m not a branding expert, but I know it when I see it.
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And I know it when it s not there.
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But that s one thing.
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And so I need to get better at saying, hey, I m working with you on this.
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You need to rebrand, because it ain t working.
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And you guys look like you re desperate because of the font you use, or because of the design, or because of the brochures.
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They don t match, or nothing matches, that kind of thing.
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Yes.
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I think that, too, when you go there,
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This is under the heading of unsolicited advice with good intention, unsolicited advice with good intention.
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You can say that to say, hey, I know you re hiring, we re your sales team.
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I have a little slant towards branding and marketing.
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Would you be comfortable if I gave you some just outside looking in advice?
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Comment on your marketing most people go, please do yeah, please do I m like, here s how it reads to me one guy s opinion It reads very needy to me everything about it.
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Yeah, just say that to people I I have a really good friend that you know who owns one of the best Fitness companies here in our hometown of Indianapolis up by North North Central High School.
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His name is Mark.
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Uh-huh I met Mark as a salesperson and
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I love the guy, his drive, his motive.
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He was an awful salesperson.
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And he will tell you this story.
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We went to, I think, a Starbucks.
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And I said, dude, I m just going to be straight with you.
SPEAKER_00
This is not your jam.
SPEAKER_00
Sales is not your deal, dude.
SPEAKER_00
Every time you talk about fitness, you light up.
SPEAKER_00
You talk about sales, you go into a ditch.
SPEAKER_00
And so, I m just telling you that because I love you and I think you should consider what you re doing here for a career.
SPEAKER_00
He went, he took that and he ll tell you this.
SPEAKER_00
He went out, did some work, talked to his wife, started a fitness place.
SPEAKER_00
It s enormous now.
SPEAKER_00
And he s so happy.
SPEAKER_00
And he s, I ve been a client of his now for 10 years.
SPEAKER_00
So, when you go there with people that s terrifying, you think you re going to hurt their feelings, it could be the greatest thing that ever happened to them.
SPEAKER_00
You ve got to give them a chance for that.
SPEAKER_01
And I think that s part of trusting your instinct.
SPEAKER_01
I mean, your instinct had to be trusted by you to be able to even conjure up those words.
SPEAKER_01
Because if you don t have any care for people, you re not going to have any instinct around them.
SPEAKER_01
So you cared about him.
SPEAKER_01
And therefore, there were signals that he was sending that you were picking up on.
SPEAKER_01
And you took action on those signals.
SPEAKER_01
But if you re not caring about people, if you just meet somebody on first call, first date,
SPEAKER_01
You re probably not, but you had a relationship with him and you can notice when people light up.
SPEAKER_01
So I like that.
SPEAKER_01
I think this topic, I think for listeners, you have to ask yourself, what am I not telling people about me and my life and where I want to go?
SPEAKER_01
What am I not saying about our product that maybe should be said?
SPEAKER_01
Maybe we should be asking different questions or proclaiming the value of our product in a different way.
SPEAKER_01
Or maybe the marketing team wants you to really hammer on this, and you know damn well it doesn t matter.
SPEAKER_01
They don t care about that.
SPEAKER_01
All they care about is x.
SPEAKER_01
And you have to be able to go to your marketing department and say, I know you guys think this is important.
SPEAKER_01
Nobody cares.
SPEAKER_01
Nobody cares.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
Nobody cares.
SPEAKER_00
You have to figure out where to fight those battles and not start a war.
SPEAKER_00
Find out what you re afraid to say and say it.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00
There s your lesson.
SPEAKER_00
That s a good one.
SPEAKER_00
Good job.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00
Thanks.
SPEAKER_00
See you next time.
SPEAKER_00
I ll talk to you.
SPEAKER_00
Bye.
SPEAKER_00
Bye.