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Welcome to the Sell or Die podcast.
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I m your host, Jeffrey Gittimer.
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And I m your host, Jen Gittimer.
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Well, in this podcast, we re gonna help you attract more qualified, unbelievable, ready-to-buy clients.
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We re gonna help you build loyal relationships.
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And the one thing you re hoping for, close more deals.
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Let s get into it.
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It s time to sell or die.
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Die Hard.
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Welcome back to Sell or Die.
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Amazing episode today.
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We have a great guest.
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His name is Dove Gordon, and he is not only an expert networker, but he s also amazing at creating opportunities for
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networking and showing you how you can create those opportunities for your clients and potential clients or soon to be clients to network as well so that you can offer them value.
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This episode is going to be amazing.
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I know Duff personally.
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I m in one of his networking groups.
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I see firsthand on a daily basis just how good
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The group is because of the work that he s done behind the scenes.
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He s created the way he s done it, the way he has done it.
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Yeah, there is a magic to what he s created.
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And you die hard.
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You can create exactly the same thing.
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OK, let s go.
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Let s take a listen.
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Thanks, you know, appreciate you inviting me on.
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So thanks for having me.
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Look, back in about 2002 is when I got started and I was, you know, I d heard about business coaching.
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So I enrolled myself in one of these early coaching program courses to learn about coaching.
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I got from that some, some of the skills I needed to get started.
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And then I spent the next seven years essentially pushing boulders up the hill to watch them roll back down, you know, and.
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I knew I had what to offer.
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I knew I had some skill.
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I knew I had some talent.
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I didn t have much skill, and I didn t even learn that distinction until a few years in.
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We can come to that if you like.
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I knew that I had some talent.
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I knew that I genuinely cared about people.
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I knew I had some ability, but I didn t quite understand how to turn that into a consistent flow of clients and a consistent income to support my small but growing family at the time.
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It s not growing anymore, but now it s just getting more expensive.
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Cause you know, made a wedding, get the kids are getting, they re all almost all teenagers anyway.
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So the, uh, I ended up in around 2004, 2005, even, I think I ended up forming a, a peer group for CEOs of companies with between 10 and 150, $200 million in sales that ran for a couple of years.
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And I learned a lot from that.
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My aim had been to use that to get some clients.
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I did get a few clients from that.
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Mostly though, I came to realize that through all that pushing and I invested in getting some help and mentoring with somebody and courses and so on.
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And eventually I came to realize some of the things that I d been missing when I got started.
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Because I was maybe ambitious, but certainly naive and never had a real job before, no college degree.
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didn t quite know what I was getting into.
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I remember asking some, one of my early clients was really very nice to me.
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He saw that I had what to offer, so he paid me.
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But I know I asked him some really naive questions back then, and it was very kind of him to answer because he had way more business experience than I did.
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I remember even wondering, what do you do at a business meeting?
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What makes it a meeting?
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I didn t know.
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So I couldn t figure those things out at the time.
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That question I didn t ask anybody.
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No, I didn t ask him that one.
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I asked him about different size companies at the time.
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I don t remember exactly what the question was, but that was a question I just was thinking to myself at some point.
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Anyway, so then, you know, over time, I slowly started to build up, slowly started to build up skills, slowly started to understand that, you know, I was getting somewhere.
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And I realized that what I really wanted to do was to help people who were like myself, but a few years behind.
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I realized that I enjoyed that.
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I am in Israel and I ve been here for many years.
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I grew up in New York.
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That s a small town on the East coast.
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And I know you ve heard of it, John.
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But I ve been here for over 20 years, since the late 1998 or so when I came for six months and I m still here.
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And so I was running around the country, meeting these CEOs, which was wonderful.
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That was great experience.
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I mean, people, other consultants would wonder like, how did you get the CEO of such and such company on the phone?
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How did you get a meeting with them?
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And I d figured out that piece.
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That was pretty good.
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It wasn t so easy, but I figured out that piece.
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What did you do?
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Well, I got a list.
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That s a story on its own.
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But then I started emailing and contacting, and I kept it really concise, and I had a very compelling hook.
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I don t remember exactly what I said, but I remembered that I laid out very clearly who I m looking for.
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I was contacting them about this, the peer group.
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It was, I remember what we called it, probably the CEO round table, I guess.
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I mean, it was something pretty standard.
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And I don t think there was much happening like that at the time.
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I don t know what there is now.
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I was impressed with what I d managed to accomplish with that.
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The problem is that I didn t, there was so much that I still didn t know.
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I didn t know how to really turn that into consistent revenue, how to turn that into, I did get some clients eventually and some projects eventually, but not.
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It took too long.
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It was burning me out to run that group because I wasn t charging enough.
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I was hardly charging anything really.
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And I didn t know what I didn t know at the time.
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But I d have a CEO of a $50 million a year business, electronic importer, I think, and I got
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I was heading to the monthly meeting and I started getting phone calls from people, their secretaries, oh, he s so sorry he can t make it.
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He has an unexpected guest from Singapore.
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Someone just knocks on the door from Singapore.
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I don t know.
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I still think that they, you know, anyway, it was a board meeting.
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We had many excellent meetings, but it was, I spent the whole month to make it work and it just wasn t worth it.
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So I decided to take all the skills that I had learned, the things that I had figured out, and then focus on helping other people who... Also, my Hebrew was never fluent.
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It s still not fluent.
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So I realized that I was only going to go so far in the consulting world locally.
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And that was another reason why I decided to shift my focus outside and to share what I d learned with others who were a few years behind.
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So that s what we did.
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And the next stage was, how do I figure out, how do I get in front of such people?
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How do I find them?
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I was looking for other people who were
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online marketing to other consultants, coaches, experts, and so on using online direct marketing, using joint venture teleseminars at the time.
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So I joined a few different online communities looking for that right kind of person.
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I didn t quite find what I was looking for.
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I remember joining, one community was really excellent, but it was focused on a very specific type of like
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paperclip agency person.
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Another one was really just full of people virtually patting each other on the back telling them how awesome they were for doing like, like for getting out of bed.
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And I was didn t think that was really very.
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It wasn t what I was looking for either.
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Another community was, you know, to good well meaning people but I could tell you they were never going to go beyond a certain point they just lacked a certain sophistication I decided I ll start my own community, I ll start my I didn t know what I was starting, I figured I ll just start my own group so I reached out to a handful of people that I d met online.
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here and there over the previous several years.
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And I said, hey, look, you know, I m looking, I m starting this group of people who all, we all market and sell to small business owner, coach, consultant, agency owner, entrepreneur, and so on.
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And using online direct marketing and are happy to cross promote each other.
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I m happy to introduce you to my list and vice versa, I m hoping.
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And we started with a handful of people.
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And over the following years, we grew to 195, almost 200 members, including many, many members who were people that earlier years, I d put them on a pedestal, I looked up to them, you know, people like Jeffrey, who never became a member, but people like Jeffrey, who like, you know, I d heard of I come across.
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And, and I just, you know, I used to think, well, why would they want to talk to me?
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Like, what do they have?
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But then they were ended up being members of my group, which was really, you know, very good.
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So I was in I was in a different group.
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It was famous people from exit for the New Jersey.
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Like it was a very small group.
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You know, we can only all be participating so much.
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Right.
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So, Jeffrey, I think there was a hint before, by the way.
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I understand.
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No, actually, it was just the truth, not a hint.
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I m pretty blunt.
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Not as blunt as Jeffrey, but when you have your meetings with these people, and let s say 100 people show up to an average meeting, what do you donate to the group versus what does the group donate back that keeps it vibrant?
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So, I mean, fast forward to today, right if that s what you re asking.
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First of all, I don t know if we ve ever had 100 people on any one group I mean these are all virtual calls, and we grew to like I said 195, but let me, let me just fill in, I ll catch up to today.
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We had okay.
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After about eight years or so, I realized that about half the group was active, but half was not active.
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And I really needed to know who wanted to be there.
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So I realized I need to start charging something.
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I ran it for free for the first eight years.
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And I was afraid.
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I was really afraid of losing these amazing relationships, including, like I said, with some, you know, big names, people who were joining the community.
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And I didn t know how people would respond.
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So I spent several months just consulting quietly with people behind the scenes and everyone s like saying, for sure, of course you should be charging.
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And I thought of how much to charge and, you know, I don t charge it a lot.
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It s, it s, it s a very modest annual fee, especially compared to what other people are charging for, you know, comparable or certainly this caliber.
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So I decided one day I just have to take a leap and I d be willing to lose everything.
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And I said, if it blows up, then I ll start over again.
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If it doesn t, then I m in a better place.
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Right.
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So, cause I felt that for the sake of the group, it couldn t be like holding a library card.
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We had people reaching out to others who didn t respond and
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Just having lists of names doesn t mean anything.
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So we made that announcement and within two weeks, I had 45 members signed up and I was afraid we d go down to 10, maybe 20.
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And from there, we slowly built our way up.
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We re back to about 190 something now.
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About a year and a half ago, I made another big leap decision to make the JVM my main thing, my main focus.
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So that s what I spend most of my time on.
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Still work with some clients one-on-one, but I m no longer promoting groups or other things serving the consulting and coaching world as well.
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So I m helping individuals, people one-on-one when they pop up in my inbox and it s a perfect fit.
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So I ll work with them.
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But otherwise now it s my main thing.
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So what do we do to kind of answer your question, Jeffrey, like what do we do in the JVM?
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We have a pretty active email-based conversation that s going 24-7.
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You can ask any kind of question and get a quality response pretty quickly from, you know, to almost anything from around the world.
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Jen, I know you ve participated in some of that.
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Then we have a couple of different types of calls every month.
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We also have some additional smaller group calls that are run by members on specific topics.
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So we call those work working groups.
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I see my role as three things, curation, conversation, education.
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I curate the group, make sure that we have the right people getting in.
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I would say it s actually harder to get into JVMM than it is to get into some of these 25K groups.
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And I ve actually had confirmation on that from some others.
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It s really hard to turn away a check for 25,000 or whatever, a charge.
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It s a lot easier to turn away less.
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And I just, I really know that it s not about taking everybody who wants to be in there.
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You can t fill out a form on my site and just join the group.
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You have to talk to me first.
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I talked to everybody first, just like I did when it was free.
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I think that if I hadn t started off this way, it would have been, you know,
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I didn t set out with this ingenious plan on how to create what we end up creating.
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It was really, like I said, I was just looking to start this community.
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We ran it for about eight years for free.
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And the last four years or so, it hasn t been free, but we ve continued to grow and thrive, attracting better and better people all the time.
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Yes, some people leave, there s attrition, that s normal and natural.
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Usually it makes sense why there s some life situation change in business or every now and then it s someone who just wasn t really a good fit.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Every now and then there s somebody who I would prefer didn t leave, but usually they stay.
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And it s really about relationships.
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Let me throw this at you.
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We have listeners, and they re predominantly entrepreneurs or manager leaders and salespeople.
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We refer to them as diehards because they are dedicated to this podcast.
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But you have a group that others can learn from, not necessarily what they can milk
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as information, but literally how the organization works.
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So at Diehard, if you re out there and you re wanting to understand how a successful group works online virtually, Jen is going to put a link in the show notes
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that will allow you to at least fill out the form and double call you.
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And you may not be qualified, but if you are qualified, you may learn about how to run a successful organization, as well as meet with peers and talk to people that can help you build your business.
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And I think that s the overview of what we re talking about.
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And I want to make sure that everyone has an understanding that even though this is not how to make a sale faster, it s how to build relationships that matter and relationships of value where there s an exchange without a measurement.
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Like you don t donate, you don t give your ideas into the group and go, okay, you guys, I just gave my idea.
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What do you have for me?
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This is something where it s, you go in without measurement and you give what you can give.
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I ll just for anyone who is thinking that it could be helpful for them to form their own community.
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Typically, it needs to have a core idea.
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I mean, that s the starting point is you ve got to have a single concept, a core concept that really brings everybody together.
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So for us, it s like everybody in JVMM is marketing and selling to the same small business, coach, consultant, agency, and entrepreneur audience using online direct marketing.
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And everybody therefore is also looking for potential promotion partners, joint venture
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Can you go slowly and tell people what the initials mean?
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JVMM, Joint Venture Marketing Mastermind.
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I m really good at naming things, just not my own things.
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I like the name.
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Yeah, we do.
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I got a I got a good domain a couple years ago profitable relationships.com so that s that s where we, you know, where everything is now.
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So, when you have that core idea and you re bringing people together to have an overlapping interest.
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That s where you can start to build a community if somebody is doing sales for a company.
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Especially if it s a really high value sale, bringing people together in groups where they can learn from each other network really is an excellent long term relationship to for building building relationships getting to know people.
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If everybody on LinkedIn is contacting them reaching out and cold contacting them, making this or that promise of.
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Oh, we can get you leads and all the other garbage that we all get, endless stream of it, or whatever else people are saying.
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Oh, I noticed that you won this or that award or something.
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And you re able to reach out and say, hey, I lead a community of X type of people, just like you, who have this interest.
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You even know some of our members.
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something personalized like that, that really helps you get started.
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It s a very different type of message that your ideal prospects are more likely to respond to.
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And it gives you a way of opening the conversation in a personal way that, I mean, just that makes the whole thing easier.
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I love that because you re going in offering value
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immediately, like, come to this group because I can connect you with other people that you may want to meet, versus, hey, can I get a meeting with you so I can sell you my stuff?
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Right?
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Like, it s such a different feeling.
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It s a value-offered program that has value attraction to it because of its success.
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And if you re out there and you re a taker,
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then my recommendation would be never darken this door.
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If you have information to give that you believe will benefit others, I can promise you that you will receive 10 times the information in return, literally.
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That s a good point.
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I want to say a member becomes successful, but really when they become successful, that means that they re getting a lot and they re finding the group valuable, right?
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So what are the attributes to becoming a successful member when you re networking?
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Typically it is, it s like what Jeffrey was saying, it s like the more you re looking to give.
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When you approach it and you re, you re asking about others, when you re asking others about themselves, not just for some, because you re looking to be able to stick in about, Hey, Oh, so could you promote me?
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And when you re asking to understand about who they are.
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And what were you now where you re headed to try to understand just like any other sales conversation you re looking to understand if this person in front of you where you re coming from where you re headed what what stands between today and where you re headed what s in when you really try to get to know somebody, and then you genuinely care and you re really looking to see how you can be helpful.
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Those are the people who are going to find that networking really, really works for them.
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If people come into it and they re looking to see what can I get, or they re looking for a quick fix, they re likely to be very frustrated because it doesn t work that way.
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I ve helped some people start networks similar to JVM, what I call alchemy networks.
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And it has to be something, if you re going to start this kind of network, it has to be something that you expect that you ll enjoy running it for years to come.
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It s not like Facebook ads, you could turn it on, turn it off.
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Once you re going to start, this is a strategy that you re going to run for years.
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I have three basic principles for forming a thriving network like this.
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And the first is to be valuable to those who can be valuable to you.
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right, be valuable to those who can be valuable to you.
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The second is be continuously seen.
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And the third is make it easy for them to take the next step.
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So when you start off by being valuable to those who can be valuable to you, then obviously, you know, you have to make sure you re serving the right people, right?
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You re you re being valuable to
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If you re just being valuable to everybody or anyone who crosses your path, then that s you re a very nice person, but not necessarily very effective, not very focused on where you re going.
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So you ve got to know that.
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And just because you all happen to live off exit four in New Jersey doesn t necessarily mean that s the best place to spend all your time, hang out with them.
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Yeah.
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What is that?
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I don t know what that is.
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Like a gas station that serves food.
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Oh, well, there s food everywhere, including at gas stations, but not as far as I know.
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Here s the deal.
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In 1998, when I finished writing Customer Satisfaction is Worthless, Customer Loyalty is Priceless, I had my next book.
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And my next book was called The Lost Secret of Selling.
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And at the time, 1998, The Lost Secret of Selling was four words.
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perceived difference and perceived value.
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If I don t perceive a difference in you, if I don t perceive value in you, I m not buying whatever it is that you have.
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I don t care who you are.
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I don t care what you say.
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You couldn t give it to me.
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A third set of two letters
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emerged around 2008, social proof.
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In other words, what others say about you to affirm that you re not full of shit, or that you re actually legitimate in what you say and what you do.
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So perceived difference, perceived value, social proof.
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It is not much different than your core values.
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We just use different words.
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You can t bring
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value to the group, and it be perceived as value, not a sales pitch, you re going to win.
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Because someone s going to say, oh, I can use that.
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Well, that s really great.
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Thank you for that information.
1
SPEAKER_01
And when you bring that to a group, then it s genuine.
1
SPEAKER_01
And no one can say, I owe you one.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s not what the group is.
1
SPEAKER_01
No one owes anyone anything.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s a matter of participating.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you said it in your second piece, being consistent.
1
SPEAKER_01
You got to show up.
1
SPEAKER_01
You have to be present.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you have to be aware not just to take, but to give.
1
SPEAKER_01
So anyone who comes to the meeting needs to bring an idea.
1
SPEAKER_01
That would be my challenge to the group.
1
SPEAKER_01
What s your big idea this week?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because if you don t have an idea, you know, think of it, that s the value that you re contributing.
1
SPEAKER_01
And if everybody brought an idea every week or every month, whenever you meet, the group flourishes.
1
SPEAKER_00
The cool thing about Gov s group is that there are meetings, but what happens in between the meetings is also very powerful because
1
SPEAKER_00
there are email discussions, like I m working on building a quiz right now.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, I wonder what JVMM has to say about quizzes.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I literally searched in my inbox, JVMM and quiz, and all these emails came up like, whoa, this is gold that I m sorting through.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, he said this and she said that, and I m clicking on their links.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so it s like the input from the community in between the sessions, which what you re saying, Jeffrey, the ideas.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then they re sitting there for, there s a record of them, which is very cool.
1
SPEAKER_00
Dub, I want to make sure you explain the other two pieces of your theory.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, theory, the just, you know, principles here.
1
SPEAKER_02
So like, the first one is, he said, is, what did I say?
1
SPEAKER_02
I actually, I wrote this a long time ago.
1
SPEAKER_02
So be valuable to those who can be valuable to you.
1
SPEAKER_02
This is I created a course teaching other people how to do this, but I really haven t been promoting it.
1
SPEAKER_02
So like, it s never been finished.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I m pulling it up because this is what I do naturally.
1
SPEAKER_02
But
1
SPEAKER_02
Anyway, so be valuable to those who can be valuable to you, be continuously seen, and make it easy for them to take the next step.
1
SPEAKER_02
So be valuable to those who can be valuable to you that we talked about.
1
SPEAKER_02
Be continuously seen is that when you re bringing the concept here for all three of these is
1
SPEAKER_02
is in terms of like, if you re looking to create a community of potential clients, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
So it s be valuable to create this community for those who could be valuable to you.
1
SPEAKER_02
Those are potential clients or customers of yours, be continuously seen, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
Here s how that works.
1
SPEAKER_02
Let s say someone says, you know, Jeffrey, I love what you re doing.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s fantastic.
1
SPEAKER_02
But you know what?
1
SPEAKER_02
It s just get back to me in six months, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
So typically people say, okay, I ll get back to you in six months.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then what do you do between now and six months?
1
SPEAKER_02
Well, I could put you on an email list.
1
SPEAKER_02
I can spam you or send you something with permission, perhaps.
1
SPEAKER_02
I could send you a gift or something.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I noticed this article.
1
SPEAKER_02
I thought you might like it.
1
SPEAKER_02
I could do all that kind of thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
Or I could say, Jeffrey, sure, I understand.
1
SPEAKER_02
Six months, maybe for whatever, sometimes there s a legitimate reason for pushing it off for six months.
1
SPEAKER_02
So let s assume there is.
1
SPEAKER_02
But now I want to maintain that relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
Jeffrey, here s what I suggest.
1
SPEAKER_02
Since XYZ is a genuine issue, and you know it s an issue, but you ve got these other priorities you ve got to work through first, why don t we do this?
1
SPEAKER_02
Why don t you join our network?
1
SPEAKER_02
This is what it s called.
1
SPEAKER_02
This is what it s about.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s comprised of people just like you.
1
SPEAKER_02
And when something related to it comes up, you can just ask a question and get great input.
1
SPEAKER_02
You can ask me.
1
SPEAKER_02
You can ask others.
1
SPEAKER_02
You participate as much or as little as you want, there s no obligation.
1
SPEAKER_02
You can charge $1,000 a year or nothing, depending on what you feel is right.
1
SPEAKER_02
If you re charging even $1,000 a year, now you re getting paid to sell, okay?
1
SPEAKER_02
You re turning at least part of your outbound marketing and sales into a revenue source.
1
SPEAKER_02
You end up with 30, 50, 100 people that s paying between one and $2,000 a year.
1
SPEAKER_02
you know, covers a salary, right, or more.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then you, so now you re inviting this person to be in a situation where you will be continuously seen.
1
SPEAKER_02
Now, instead of forcing the follow-up, now the follow-up happens naturally.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that s one of the great advantages of forming what I call an alchemy network, creating that.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then the third one is just make it easy for them to take the next step.
1
SPEAKER_02
Okay, you need to, once people are members in your community, you want to make it really easy, let them know in an elegant,
1
SPEAKER_02
I m not not rubbing it in there, not pushing in their face all the time, letting people know, hey, if you re at this point, then let me know, email me, let s get on a call.
1
SPEAKER_02
You know, you re you re moving conversations and a lot of people are continuously hearing you because you re leading the group in a way that serves them.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then you re also letting them know, hey, when this goes on, when that happens, make sure we re in touch.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because now, we know how often after six months you get back to them and they say, oh, Jeffrey says, Dov, I wish you d gotten back to me two months ago.
1
SPEAKER_02
In the meantime, we went with this other company, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
But if they re a member in your community, then that s way less likely to happen because they re seeing you, they re getting to know you better, that relationship is deepening, and you re much more likely to know that they re ready at four months instead of six months.
1
SPEAKER_01
One of the questions that I always ask people who say, call me in a month or call me in five months, is what will be different in six months than in the place you re in right now?
1
SPEAKER_01
And that answer usually contains their barrier or their circumstance.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s number one.
1
SPEAKER_01
Then I would ask, I said, okay, between now and six months, are questions going to arise as you re doing your project
2
SPEAKER_01
Are you going to answer them yourself, or would you like 100 people to help you answer them?
2
SPEAKER_01
That s legitimately a hook.
2
SPEAKER_01
No one can answer that, no.
2
SPEAKER_01
I would love input.
2
SPEAKER_01
You don t have to take the input, but imagine 100 more brains on this than just yours.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s the value of a peer group.
2
SPEAKER_01
They have axes, but they don t have an axe to grind.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re not going to say, if you buy my service, I can give you more answers.
2
SPEAKER_01
they re just going to give you an answer.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s so rare in the internet community.
2
SPEAKER_01
I have 30,000 LinkedIn connections.
2
SPEAKER_01
I can t have any more.
2
SPEAKER_01
LinkedIn cuts you off at a certain point.
2
SPEAKER_01
But if people drop off, so I get maybe 100 a month of new people that I can add in.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the minute I add somebody in, they send me a sales pitch.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s crazy.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
What are you doing?
2
SPEAKER_01
What are you doing?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s just a bad automation.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I, my response is usually I don t respond to idiots, but in your case, I m going to make an exception.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that puts them on notice that if you re going to try to build a relationship with somebody, give me something.
2
SPEAKER_01
Top 10 articles I ve ever read on selling.
2
SPEAKER_01
I hope you appreciate them.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, let me give you my top 10.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s what we re looking for.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re looking for the ability to exchange and not necessarily exchange money.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
exchange value.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think that s a very important part of this process.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s very few value exchangers.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s plenty of money exchangers.
2
SPEAKER_01
You can, I mean, you get the emails every day.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you, I can get you a thousand leads a month if you ll just give me 500 bucks.
2
SPEAKER_03
The infuriating thing is that they ve recently in the last four, five, six months, they ve recently figured out how to get those emails into the inbox, not spam.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I think it s these new email warming services that are outsmarted Gmail for sure.
2
SPEAKER_03
Hopefully they figure out a way beyond it.
2
SPEAKER_03
But I used to respond, and then I realized I m just helping them.
2
SPEAKER_03
So now I just press spam.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, OK, I have a thought.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, you know, so many people in the sales industry talk about the power of networking and salespeople and entrepreneurs think about networking as attending someone else s meeting.
2
SPEAKER_00
And something that you brought up during the course of this conversation is like, don t just attend a meeting.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can create the meeting.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I really want our diehards to think about that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, what would it take for you to create a peer group or some sort of group that your customers would want to network at in order to offer them value?
2
SPEAKER_00
And if you had to give them like some tips to get started, what would that look like for them?
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, the first thing is really to know that, like I said earlier, you want to be sure it s what you want to do, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
Especially if you re going to charge for it, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
If you re charged, and I wouldn t charge monthly, I d charge annually because, and I think it s a mistake people make if they charge something monthly.
2
SPEAKER_03
It doesn t give, you don t want your members deciding every month whether they re going to make that buying decision.
2
SPEAKER_03
They ve got to be, you build a community over time.
2
SPEAKER_03
So I think that s really important as well.
2
SPEAKER_03
But so be sure it s something that you want to do.
2
SPEAKER_03
If someone is doing this, if you personally are doing this because of what you want to get from it, then I also think it s not going to work.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I m saying that after saying, you know, I ran it for free for eight years.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yes, I wanted to get from it.
2
SPEAKER_03
I, and I did get, I did it because I knew that this was a way for me to build relationships with people who would help promote me to their email.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s how I grew my email list from like nothing to, you know, thousands of email subscribers over time.
2
SPEAKER_03
And that s how I got my clients for many years.
2
SPEAKER_03
But there were plenty of people who never promoted me and that was fine.
2
SPEAKER_03
Either we just, you know, personally, we weren t, you know, it s such a great fit or or they were a little, you know, maybe small minded or not.
2
SPEAKER_03
Whatever.
2
SPEAKER_03
So for one reason, they never promoted me.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s OK.
2
SPEAKER_03
Didn t stop me from helping them because I genuinely believe that that by for every member who does a little bit better, it brings everybody up.
2
SPEAKER_01
The world pays you back once you throw it out there.
2
SPEAKER_01
and the world will always pay you back times 10.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you know Bob Berg?
2
SPEAKER_03
I do, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Are you friends with him?
2
SPEAKER_03
We re acquaintances.
2
SPEAKER_03
He knows who I am.
2
SPEAKER_03
I know who he is.
2
SPEAKER_03
We met in person, I think once or twice, definitely once.
2
SPEAKER_01
You should connect with him.
2
SPEAKER_01
He s a really good guy.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, he is.
2
SPEAKER_01
And he has no agenda.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
He s just a nice Jewish boy who lives in Miami.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s the other Israel.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the but he has a movement and the movement has traction.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s not unlike what you re trying to do.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s just.
2
SPEAKER_01
you re running parallel roads, you re just on different paths, but I think you should be guests on each other s program.
2
SPEAKER_02
Bob and I are good friends.
2
SPEAKER_02
Tell him I sent you.
2
SPEAKER_02
All right.
2
SPEAKER_02
Thank you.
2
SPEAKER_02
He s a good guy.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
And he s, he s what you see is what you get.
2
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
He is exact.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
I agree with that.
2
SPEAKER_02
There is nothing phony about Bob Berg.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s right.
2
SPEAKER_03
And that s really something that people need to internalize.
2
SPEAKER_03
So worried about, you know, what should I do?
2
SPEAKER_03
People want to know what should I do?
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
And they look around and they see what other people do.
2
SPEAKER_03
And then they copy them where they think that person is behaving in this way.
2
SPEAKER_03
So I should behave in this way because that person seems to have what I want.
2
SPEAKER_03
You know, in marketing or sales, we talk, and in writing for sure, we talk about finding your voice.
2
SPEAKER_03
And it s a process to find your voice.
2
SPEAKER_03
At least that s been my experience.
2
SPEAKER_03
It took me time.
2
SPEAKER_03
But I think that one of the most important things that anybody can do or personal breakthroughs any of us can have is when you get to that point, when you wake up one day and you realize that
2
SPEAKER_03
I don t have to be like anybody else.
2
SPEAKER_03
I really just have to be myself.
2
SPEAKER_03
I really just have to do my best job.
2
SPEAKER_03
I really just have to be just genuine, be myself.
2
SPEAKER_03
Like we said about Bob, what you see is what you get.
2
SPEAKER_03
Be straight with people.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s not about trying to get from people.
2
SPEAKER_03
Sales, as I see it, sales is leadership.
2
SPEAKER_03
Sales is not trying to convince anybody.
2
SPEAKER_03
Sales is not trying to twist arms.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s not about getting someone to buy something that they don t really need or don t want.
2
SPEAKER_03
Sales is offering to lead.
2
SPEAKER_03
You re here.
2
SPEAKER_03
You want to get there, you tell me.
2
SPEAKER_03
And these are the obstacles you re facing along the way.
2
SPEAKER_03
I can help you.
2
SPEAKER_03
Would you like me to help you?
2
SPEAKER_03
Here s how I can help you.
2
SPEAKER_03
And really becoming comfortable with your own unique personality and what you re bringing.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s been a journey, I ll say, you know, but it s probably the biggest thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
I want to throw a couple of things out here.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you read How to Win Friends and Influence People and How to Stop Worrying and Start Living by Dale Carnegie, written in the 1930s, the underlying theme of both books is exactly the same.
2
SPEAKER_01
Two words.
2
SPEAKER_01
Be yourself.
2
SPEAKER_01
50 years before that, Oscar Wilde said, be yourself.
2
SPEAKER_01
Everyone else has already taken.
2
SPEAKER_01
And while it s humorous, it s also as factual as it can be.
2
SPEAKER_01
You don t need to.
2
SPEAKER_01
There are people who impersonators and some do it as a living.
2
SPEAKER_01
Some, you know, you get some guy goes on television because he s impersonating John Wayne or, you know,
2
SPEAKER_01
somebody famous, it s not quite right.
2
SPEAKER_01
And maybe that s good for the moment, but I d way always rather have the real thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like, you go to a store to buy something and someone says, well, it s just like an Apple.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, I ll take an Apple then.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s just like a Mac.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, well, I ll take a Mac.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s just like an iPad.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, I ll take the iPad.
2
SPEAKER_01
People are always trying to come up with an imitation, but they re not original.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s extremely important in being yourself.
2
SPEAKER_01
You have the choice at that moment in time to be original.
2
SPEAKER_01
Also, you talked about finding your voice, and I will tell you as a writer, it took me about six weeks before I realized that I could do this for a living.
2
SPEAKER_01
It didn t dawn on me.
2
SPEAKER_01
like I had an endless stream of information, but it didn t dawn on me that it was a living until maybe my second or third book.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was an avocation that became a vocation.
2
SPEAKER_01
And this book is 20 years old.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s the largest selling sales book of all time.
2
SPEAKER_01
And now it is coming out in the classic edition, the 20-year edition.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I haven t changed a word.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you re listening on the podcast and you have no idea what Jeffery s talking about, because he held up a book, he held up the Little Red Book of Selling.
2
SPEAKER_01
And there s now the classic edition.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s the same.
2
SPEAKER_01
The word social media is not in the book.
2
SPEAKER_01
The word social selling, the word Facebook is not in the group, is not in the book, because it wasn t there when the book was written in 2004.
2
SPEAKER_01
So my challenge to you is, if you re looking for your voice, sit down and find it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then what s going to happen is other people will affirm or confirm that you have a voice.
2
SPEAKER_01
You get a follower, you get fan mail, you get people that buy your product, and people that
2
SPEAKER_01
Thank you for the things that you do.
2
SPEAKER_01
You get that affirmation, and that leads you to continue to do what you do.
2
SPEAKER_01
I will guarantee you that Dove gets all kinds of positive feedback for what he does, and that fuels his fire.
2
SPEAKER_01
That affirms his voice.
2
SPEAKER_01
That affirms his message.
2
SPEAKER_01
that affirms his core concepts and where his core values are.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s what you need to look at.
2
SPEAKER_01
What are your core values?
2
SPEAKER_01
What is your voice that s being heard beyond this sales pitch that some guy told you to memorize?
2
SPEAKER_03
It s, it s interesting how, when it comes to a lot of times, you know, the people we re dealing with, let s say independent consultants or coaches, or, but not only also employed.
2
SPEAKER_03
They specifically those who, you know, independent, they ve, they ve had a successful career up to a point, let s say, and they say, I m, I m out.
2
SPEAKER_03
Like, I want to, I want my own thing now.
2
SPEAKER_03
I want to, I m tired of working for other people.
2
SPEAKER_03
I want to do my own thing.
2
SPEAKER_03
And they wake up in the morning and they might be masters of their craft excellent at what they do.
2
SPEAKER_03
And they figure all right, you know, I was excellent, I was, you know, my work was recognized in my old company I ll just go do it on my own.
2
SPEAKER_03
And the the harsh reality.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I made a lot of money.
2
SPEAKER_03
And the harsh reality that they come to realize almost always is that, wow, okay, just because I m good at it doesn t mean that people are going to be beating a path to my door.
2
SPEAKER_03
Now I have to figure out how to market and sell this.
2
SPEAKER_03
And that s a completely different set of skills.
2
SPEAKER_03
Now it could take a long time until they figure that out, that it s a completely different set of skills.
2
SPEAKER_03
Some get it faster and some takes a long time.
2
SPEAKER_03
In the meantime, they re going through their severance pay or whatever.
2
SPEAKER_03
But what s interesting is that when they realize that they need some help, so they say, well, how do I get clients?
2
SPEAKER_03
What do I need to do?
2
SPEAKER_03
And there s no shortage of, of idiotic advice, self-serving advice, shallow advice on the internet.
2
SPEAKER_03
So you put out a, you know, you do a search or you just say, how do I get clients?
2
SPEAKER_03
Or how do I do?
2
SPEAKER_03
And, and suddenly they re drawn into some, you know, charismatic guru type who s giving some idiotic, shallow, self-serving advice and says, or, or by the way, it can even be, it can even be true.
2
SPEAKER_03
It can even be, you know, like do this, it works, but then they approach it.
2
SPEAKER_03
by saying, okay, if I do this, if I do X, Y, Z, then it ll work.
2
SPEAKER_03
And they do X, Y, Z, and it doesn t work.
2
SPEAKER_03
And it doesn t work, not because it can t work, not because it s wrong, but because you re just, you re blindly following a series of steps.
2
SPEAKER_03
And some of the things that people are
2
SPEAKER_03
are told to do, you have this gut feeling like it doesn t go with my personality, it doesn t go with my values.
2
SPEAKER_03
Send out these aggressive emails.
2
SPEAKER_03
Back in the 2000s, there was the early days of the online launch when if the first person made that million dollar launch, you might recall these days.
2
SPEAKER_03
So I forgot the name, but it was all like, hey, buy my stuff or get off my list, that type of thing.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I never understood that.
2
SPEAKER_03
But what happens is that people end up adopting someone else s voice.
2
SPEAKER_03
amongst other things, end up doing things that aren t a fit for them.
2
SPEAKER_03
And they re following somebody else, they re following a leader with a blind, you know, they re blindly following a leader that they never would have done in, they never would follow that kind of advice in their core area of expertise, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
In their core area of expertise, where they have a confidence, where they, if someone would come along and say- That s it, you just nailed it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s the confidence.
2
SPEAKER_03
Someone would say, do this and that, and say, that s idiotic, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
But when they don t have that confidence and they feel like, I don t know what to do, I m struggling to get clients.
2
SPEAKER_03
So we end up following advice that our gut tells us doesn t make sense.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s wrong.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s wrong for me anyway, or it s wrong for me in this way, but I don t know what else to do.
2
SPEAKER_03
Stephen Covey said years ago that in order to say no to distractions on the outside, you have to have a deeper yes burning on the inside.
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SPEAKER_03
And it s the same thing with this.
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SPEAKER_03
It s the same thing that in order to say no to idiotic advice, you have to have a yes of something that s more sensible.
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SPEAKER_03
But if you don t have that yes, then we say yes to idiotic advice and we follow things that we wouldn t do otherwise.
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SPEAKER_03
But there s also a need for money and that oftentimes will blur finding out if it s really a fit.
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SPEAKER_03
You ran over it when you said it s a fit and I want you to go back to that.
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SPEAKER_03
Whatever the circumstances are that are facing you, you have to think to yourself, does this fit me or am I just going down some path and following somebody else s bullshit?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03
And that s a huge piece of advice.
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SPEAKER_03
I want to share something with you.
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SPEAKER_03
When I first started to write my column in the Charlotte Business Journal, and we re going back now to 1992, 93, my publisher, who s still my friend, Mark Etheridge, we re having a talk one day, and he was talking about his exposure to the outside world.
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SPEAKER_03
And he said, the one thing that really pisses me off
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is people that get up in front of a network marketing group and say, if I can do it, you can do it.
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SPEAKER_03
That s the biggest hunk of bullshit on the planet.
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SPEAKER_03
But there is a truth to something.
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When he says that or she says that, if I can do it, what it proves is it can be done.
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It may not be what you want to do.
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SPEAKER_03
It may not be what fits you.
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SPEAKER_03
But I m proof that it can be done.
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SPEAKER_03
That s it.
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SPEAKER_03
That s the only proof that at all.
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SPEAKER_03
It doesn t mean you can do it.
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SPEAKER_03
You may be shit at it.
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SPEAKER_03
You may not have any balls.
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SPEAKER_03
You may not have enough money to stick through the whole thing.
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SPEAKER_03
You may not have any kind of charisma.
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SPEAKER_03
You may not know how to sell.
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SPEAKER_03
So when coaches go into a business because they want to become a coach, because they ve had a successful career in management or marketing or whatever, they don t realize all of a sudden they become a salesperson.
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SPEAKER_03
That s their main goal.
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SPEAKER_03
Like, I m this great coach.
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SPEAKER_03
No, no, dude, you have to gain clients.
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SPEAKER_03
Right.
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SPEAKER_03
Like schmuck, you have to start selling.
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SPEAKER_03
No one told me that.
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SPEAKER_03
No, I m not.
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SPEAKER_03
I m not good at that.
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SPEAKER_03
So it s like a salesperson going to sales management.
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If you don t take six months of leadership training, you re going to suck at it.
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So if you re thinking about leaving your business and you re wanting to go into some other endeavor where you re the prime person, you better stop for three months and take a sales course because you re all of a sudden thrust.
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SPEAKER_03
Your main job is going to be salesperson to bring in money.
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SPEAKER_03
Yep.
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SPEAKER_03
If you don t bring your money, you re going to all of a sudden your nest egg loses all of its straw and you ve got a problem.
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SPEAKER_03
Yep.
3
SPEAKER_00
Doug, this has been amazing.
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SPEAKER_00
And I m so glad that we got to talk to you and share your expertise with our diehards.
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SPEAKER_00
Where can they find out more about you?
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SPEAKER_00
Where can they go to get more information?
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SPEAKER_00
What should they do next?
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SPEAKER_01
I m at profitablerelationships.com and I m actually giving away my manual that I wrote many years ago.
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SPEAKER_01
It s a PDF, never published.
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SPEAKER_03
The manual that I wrote a long time ago, but that he recently updated.
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SPEAKER_01
We it s called how to systematically and consistently attract first rate clients.
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SPEAKER_01
And I was selling it for about five years for $97.
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SPEAKER_01
And now we re giving it away.
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SPEAKER_00
Wow.
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SPEAKER_01
It s a profitable relationships.com forward slash the manual.
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SPEAKER_01
So that s if anyone found anything helpful here, they d want to go and get, get some more of that.
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SPEAKER_01
And then, um, then you ll be on my email list and we ll send you some excellent emails that are come through, you know, through my voice that I ve honed over the years.
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SPEAKER_01
So.
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SPEAKER_00
I love it.
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SPEAKER_00
Also, we ll put a link in the show notes to that and to Dove s LinkedIn so you can connect with him there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Let him know you heard him on Sell or Die.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just not all 30,000 of you because... Not all at once.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
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SPEAKER_00
Thank you for being here.
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SPEAKER_03
Thank you for having me.
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SPEAKER_03
Thank you so much, Dove.
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SPEAKER_00
Until next time, I m Jen Gittemer.
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I m Jeffrey Gittemer, and I m challenging you.
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SPEAKER_03
Find your voice even if your ass falls off.
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SPEAKER_03
Thanks for listening to the show.
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SPEAKER_00
Don t forget to like, share.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, share with both your friends.
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SPEAKER_00
And subscribe to the podcast.
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SPEAKER_02
And remember, we have a free 22 day sales challenge.
3
SPEAKER_02
Just go to gitter.com slash sales challenge to start you on your way.