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This is The Art of Charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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Today we re talking with Rob Norman from The Second City.
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We re going to be discussing improv and how it applies to personal and professional relationships, removing judgment, getting out of your head, and more on this episode of AOC.
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And with that, welcome to The Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger, and I m here with producer Jason.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
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If you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the toolbox, where we discuss body language and nonverbal communication, persuasion, networking, negotiation, and everything else we teach here at AOC.
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Just text charmed, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444, or go to theartofcharm.com.
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We may not have all the answers, but we definitely have some of the questions.
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And with that, here s Rob Norman.
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Tell us what you do in one sentence.
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I am an improviser.
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Okay, fair enough.
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What does that actually mean?
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So basically what it means is I go out on stage every single night, take a single suggestion, and improvise a completely unscripted 30-minute one-act play with a partner or a group of people.
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Why is this something that people should care about?
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Because it sounds fun, don t get me wrong, but what could I possibly learn from something like that?
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I think the main core value of improv is talking about how you deal with people, right?
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So because we don t have a script in improv, the only thing I have is my scene partner.
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And what a lot of great improv thinkers are
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talking about these days is how those skills have started to transfer off the stage.
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So in improv, there s this weird moral compass that we have where our partner always comes first.
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In our scene, we need to take care of our partner.
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And then off the stage, we found that improvisers have started treating every single person that we meet like an improv partner.
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And the results have been really interesting in my life and as a teacher of improv, also seeing how it s affected students and their progress from beginning in improv
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and after two or three years of improv training, what effect that has had on their personal life.
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We need to separate the genders.
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Yeah, I think recently that has come into question.
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I think in the past, maybe 10, 15 years ago, the amount of women who are doing comedy was much lower than men.
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It was about 80% men, 20% women.
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So to make it more fair, there was two separate categories.
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But now as we re slowly crawling up to half women in the comedy community, half men in the comedy community, that kind of distinction isn t really necessary anymore.
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But to begin with, it was for fairness.
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Okay, that makes sense.
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Just because of the laws of probability kind of would dictate that a man would win every single time.
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Yeah, and I think it was about encouraging upcoming female comedians, so there was more representation.
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So you mentioned that you go through life now, or try to, treating other people like your improv, or like your scene partner.
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Tell us what skills this involves, and then we can go into teaching this to the AOC family, but also how to apply this in regular life.
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I just took an improv three-day intensive, and it was pretty fun.
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although I will say that I m excited for level two, because level one was, it seemed like when you take a speech class and everyone s afraid to go up on stage, but you re not, and you re like, hey, the big win for everybody was getting up on that stage, and I wasn t afraid to do that.
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So I felt like I learned some basic rules that weren t that useful.
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So obviously there s more to the story when it comes to this.
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Of course I took that course in preparation for this interview.
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Oh good, I m glad you did your homework.
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I mean, you probably learned in that class, yes and, which is the idea that if you have an idea, that I m gonna say yes to it and add on to it.
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So that s a core principle of improv.
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So if we re doing a scene together and you say, let s go to the movies!
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And I say, no, it means our scene is over, we have to start all over again.
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If you say, let s go to the movies!
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And I say, yes!
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And you say, let s go see Captain America!
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And I say, yes!
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And you say, let s go right now!
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And I say, yes.
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I m saying yes, but I m not adding any new information to the scene.
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You re doing all of the work.
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But if you say, let s go to the movies and say, yes, and let s take my motorcycle.
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I got a cool leather jacket.
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We ll have a great time.
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Now we re working together and we re collaborating.
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And hopefully what we want to do in improv is to create a product that neither one of us could complete on our own.
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So together we re each building an idea, taking us to a place creatively that we could have never got to if we were just sitting in front of a computer typing.
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You know, the rules here, or the application to relationships is probably pretty obvious, but I did twist Jenny s arm, proverbially, of course, into taking this class with me, and she really got a lot out of it.
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She thought it was gonna be going up on stage and doing performances and not just playing a lot of games, which she thought was really fun.
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So we ve been applying a lot of this stuff just at home.
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where instead of negativity, we try to do the yes and thing.
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Not necessarily the structure of yes and, but just not being a negative dick when there s an idea on the table that somebody else came up with, and shooting it down, which has been kind of helpful.
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The other thing is, yes and sort of bled into, for me, during the class, there was something I was doing with a partner, and we weren t talking.
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We weren t allowed to talk, and I was pretending to read,
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pretending to text somebody or be on his phone, and then she said, okay, you can talk now.
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And everyone did this, and I did as well.
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We started sort of pretending to be in a conflict, like we were two people in a relationship ignoring each other, and she goes, alright, everybody stop.
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How many of you pretended to be in a conflict with that other person?
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And the whole class basically raised their hand, and she goes, I don t know why this is, but every time we start off silently,
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everything goes negative.
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Try to go positive.
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Why can t you just be hanging out, doing something fun?
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Why does it have to be conflict?
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And so, applying that type of principle into relationships, you begin to think, well, wait a minute.
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If people are sort of defaulting to silence is negative, or people who are silent around each other, there s something negative going on here, even if you re just role-playing.
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It clearly says something about what your brain is doing when somebody else isn t talking to you, or isn t feeding back to you, or you re not feeding into them, and it creates problems.
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And I ve noticed that just sitting on the couch in my living room.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I think we re taught very early on, or we think very early on from a young age, that by being different, we gain power.
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And that s not true in improv at all.
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So, if we re doing a scene together, and you re on your phone, and I m looking at you, and I m cleaning the dishes, and I m like, talk to me, talk to me, helping with these dishes, we think that that choice of doing the dishes is going to make the scene better, but it actually makes the scene worse.
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An easier choice for us to make would just to both be on our cell phones together.
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The idea of me taking your idea and adding on to it eliminates all of the negotiation.
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And so if I can take your idea and add on to it, it makes us together as a team more powerful than us trying to be different as individuals.
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What is your mindset during the creative process?
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You can t just go up there and wing it, or maybe you do.
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Maybe that s gotta be structured in some way.
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Otherwise, everybody s just making things up as they go along, and it s all equally unfunny or equally funny, right?
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Yeah, I mean, there is no structure ahead of time.
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That s part of the skill set.
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So you go up there with nothing, and you have to be prepared to fail.
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And if you re okay with failing, then on the other end of that is success, which seems crazy.
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It seems that if this was,
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Any other art form, we would do our preparation, we would work, we would know exactly what s happening.
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But when you play that way, in a moderate way in improv, actually your scenes are worse because they re more mundane.
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But if you play in a way where you have no idea what s happening, and you re okay with the idea of failure, then there s the potential of a great thing happening.
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And even to this day, I mean, I ve been improvising for 10 years, I cannot guarantee if I go on stage, I m not gonna bomb terribly.
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That s part of the deal.
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The good news is, as you get more experience doing improv, the ratio goes down.
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So maybe when I was starting, maybe every other scene I would do, I would bomb terribly.
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And now in improv, maybe one in 10 scenes are terrible.
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And when they re terrible, I enjoy the bomb.
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I love being on stage and watching 100 people in the audience be like, that really funny guy is not doing well right now.
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Should we help him?
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How do we help him?
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That s part of the joy of improv.
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So I want to go back to relationships and improv, because as you guys were talking about this, I m thinking, you know, how do we apply that?
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It s like your lady or your man is saying, hey, baby, let s go out tonight and get sushi.
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And I m like, yes.
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And let s swing by in and out and grab me a burger first.
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Stop it there and then go for sushi.
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Yes.
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And your diet is terrible.
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Yeah.
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Yes, and they don t have fries at sushi.
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Yes, that s a great idea, but let s not do it.
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And so for us, the true yes and, I mean, if you re hanging out with your lady or your dude and they say, let s go get sushi, if you want to engage with them, I d say the easiest thing would be to say, yes, and let s go get a bunch of asashi and see how many we can drink tonight.
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Like to me, that first option of just saying yes and adding on to an idea sounds
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It s like really fun.
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It sounds like, oh my gosh, this person is up for anything.
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And when I bring an idea to the table, they run with it.
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The other option is saying like, yes, maybe I can stop for a burger along the way.
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That negotiation is basically a speed bump into your fun, right?
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And I guess in real life, there are things that we need to say no to, but in improv,
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There s no reason to say no ever.
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And I think for me as an improviser, I don t really care.
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I don t really care where we eat dinner.
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So yeah, I m going to say yes to that, and I m going to add on to it as much as I possibly can.
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We know that this is useful in business as well.
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This is something you ve taught to corporations and teams, correct?
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Yes, absolutely.
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You know, the main thing that we talk about with corporations is the idea of yes and.
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In relation to business, we talk about the idea of separating process from your final product.
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So when we re doing any kind of idea generation, whether that be a think tank or even something as simple as, oh, what are we gonna get for lunch today?
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often what we end up doing is we combine the editing process with the creation process, and that s where conflict comes from.
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So if we can think about the idea of the process of our ideas, just to get as many ideas out there as possible, and we have none of those speed bumps along the way, we have no one saying, well, that s not gonna work because.
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If we just generate a whole bunch of ideas, and say yes to each of those ideas, and allow the idea generation process to be its own thing, and do that to the best of our ability,
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And then as a secondary process, look at how that might actually affect our company, each of these decisions, or seeing what the consequences of those decisions might be.
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Then we have a much easier time without conflict, hopefully.
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Because, great, we have a whole bunch of ideas, now once we ve had all those ideas generated, now we can choose the best one, as opposed to trying to bring an idea to the table, and then at the same time, talk about its merits.
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Right, you don t have to fight for your ideas, because we know that people like their own ideas better than those of others, and if you can t even get it out, you feel like, okay, this isn t really a collaborative process, other people are sort of jockeying for this top slot, but if everybody can get something on the table, and I find this to be true for myself, if I don t feel heard, I get angry, and I feel like I need to stand up for myself, and I need to get this out there, and get it all heard, but once I get heard, I don t necessarily feel attachment to the idea anymore, and we can start choosing the best ones.
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And also, people get more ideas when everything else is out on the table.
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It s just kind of brainstorming 101, except most people don t do it, or they start shooting each other s ideas down in real time, and everybody shuts up really fast.
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Absolutely, and I think stakes, like you re working at this company, maybe you want to impress people, maybe you re new there, so you re jockeying for power.
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And sometimes you think if you have a different idea, that will turn heads and make people look at you, and you ll gain power in the room that way.
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But really, that s not really true, right?
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When you create conflict, you don t make yourself more powerful, you make yourself less powerful.
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So in improv, it s not my job to be the funniest person on stage.
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It s my job to find the funniest thing on stage and support it.
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And by doing that, I make our troupe better, which makes me as an individual better.
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So there s a little bit of that prisoner s dilemma in improv.
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If we all agree to work together as a team and we are all thinking about this as an ensemble, then we all win.
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It s only when people break away to be different that we end up having to fight with each other and then negotiate and decide what s actually happening, which ends up a less successful process for us.
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So it sounds to me like a standard corporate business meeting is a bunch of stand-up comedians in a room who all want the spotlight.
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But when you re talking about using improv in a corporate situation, it s like everybody lifts everybody else up.
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Absolutely.
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I mean, it costs you nothing to consider someone s idea and add on to it.
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I mean, it seems like if you have a terrible idea where you re like, I don t know, let s sell all our stocks and see what happens, you know, that might be a bad idea.
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You might know it right away that it s a terrible idea, but what does it cost you to entertain that for a second, for you to add on to that idea?
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Because maybe that idea that s being presented isn t the idea you re gonna go with, but maybe it leads to the idea that you re gonna go with, right?
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You know, in improv, the biggest thing that we re fighting against is decision fatigue, right?
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We re on stage for half an hour to an hour.
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We only have so many ideas in our back pocket.
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And so if we re in a situation where people are saying no to ideas and we have to stop them short, we re gonna be out of ideas very quickly.
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And you probably know in the creative process, your biggest thing is you re sitting in front of a computer and it being a blank screen.
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You have no idea of what you re gonna write next.
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You have no direction of where you re headed.
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So by saying yes and, we short circuit that and we allow ourselves to have a more free-flowing creative space.
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it sounds like it s more about empowering others and putting your ego aside, which is, I think, when you ask the question, well, it doesn t cost you anything to entertain someone else s idea, I think what it costs people is ego, or attention to their own ego, or attention in general, which pings their ego a little bit, and I think that s something to be aware of, because if it really cost nothing, it would be a really easy shift for people to make, for everyone to make, because you go, oh yeah, I never thought about it like that, and a game changer, but people want that ego hit of, my idea was the best,
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everyone s listening to me now, I m important, and so we have to be cognizant of that and conscious of that in order to put it aside and realize it s actually not serving anyone.
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Absolutely, and I mean, yeah, there s short-term gain and there s long-term.
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you re in a meeting and you see that one person who is saying very different things, and creating a lot of conflict, and arguing, and they re getting a lot of attention, and there s a little part of you that thinks, oh, I kind of want some of that attention, I want this to be about me, but I think firsthand, because I ve done it all, I ve done sketch, and I ve done standup, and I ve done improv, and for me, the best way to find success is with people, as opposed to on my own.
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Now, in order to add things on or to do the yes and thing, one thing I noticed on stage at the course was that listening is tough for a lot of people, and there were quite a few people in class.
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I guess I m probably used to it, because I do listen for a living.
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I don t talk for a living, I listen for a living, I guess, when we re doing shows like these.
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A lot of people on stage, though, they would interrupt other people, or they would just start talking about whatever they were gonna say, no matter what the person before them said.
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And there are games that try to destroy that,
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Those people had a lot of problems with those games.
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Yeah, I mean, how much of our time is spent thinking of what we re about to say when someone else is talking?
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It s a lot.
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And people can tell when you re present with them, and then when you re off somewhere else.
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One thing that we do as a practical exercise would be something called last line response.
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So you would say a sentence to me, and what I would do is I would take the last word or last few words that you ve used, and I would actually use it to start my sentence.
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It s a subtle way to let people know that you are listening to them.
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And when people feel listened to, when people feel like you re there with them, they re more willing to be vulnerable with you and they are more willing to listen to you.
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So let s say we have a conflict in the office and I know the person who I m fighting with is wrong and my idea is right.
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It seems like the obvious thing to do would be just to argue really hard, be smarter than them, be more passionate, and then overpower them until my idea is right.
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obviously the one that we re going to go with.
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But really what we re trying to do is listen as hard as you possibly can to the other person s idea, trying to understand it the best way we possibly can.
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And when you do that, you actually disarm the other person and you invite them to listen to you harder.
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So the idea of being vulnerable, the idea of allowing yourself to consider someone else s perspective, it s a very powerful place for you to play from.
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It is powerful.
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It comes across, as we spoke before, as more confident, first of all.
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You re not desperate to get a word in.
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You re not just waiting for someone to take a breath so you can go, and then there s this thing that I thought of.
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It s needy to jump in like that.
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And we all know people like that.
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I used to be a person like that.
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Once I get the chance, I need to slide in between there like water in a driveway crack and then freeze in the Michigan winter and bust it open so that I have a place here.
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and everyone hates that, actually.
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It s obnoxious, it s annoying, and it puts you in this seat where you re the person that has to be tolerated rather than listened to, which is really not a good place to be at all in a company, in a family, in a relationship, nothing.
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Yeah, and I think it s also funny to me when I get off stage, people are always like,
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Oh my gosh, how do you do that?
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You re so confident.
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You re so brave.
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And every single improviser will tell you that confidence is an illusion.
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Everyone is terrified.
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You ve been doing this for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years.
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You re afraid every time you go on stage.
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But you learn to love the fear.
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Yeah, the idea of walking into a room and being confident seems so silly to me, because confidence is an illusion.
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It can often mean bravado, and what is ultimate confidence is vulnerability, is being able to walk into a room and being present, and you know, when you re turning on the slide projector and it doesn t work, the real confident person doesn t pretend it didn t happen.
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They go, oh man, I m terrible at these things, and they make a joke about it.
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Everyone goes, oh my gosh, like, they owned that moment
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embarrassment, and they weren t ashamed of it.
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I think, for me, when I m thinking about, oh man, I got a big meeting, or I have to go to this big audition, I m just trying to be as much me as I possibly can, and hopefully, again, that s disarming and inviting people to get to know me better, and to hopefully follow or invest in my story.
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How do we train that type of listening, the good kind of listening, or the listening to understand versus listening to respond?
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What can that sound like, practically speaking?
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I think for me, thinking about listening is being engaged with what someone is saying.
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So it s not about the idea of you re listening to someone to think of the next thing or to add on to that.
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You re listening with the hopes of really being there.
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And if you are engaged, then you are engaging.
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If you are interested, then you are interesting.
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We need to train listening.
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We have to think about the idea of settling in with someone and asking questions, being open to it, considering the idea, allowing listening to be our number one priority before we even think about responding to what they re saying.
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So can we reiterate that last line drill, because I think that might be something useful to actually put into practice in our daily lives, even though it might be a little constructed, and we ll address that in a minute.
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Absolutely.
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So to work on listening, you just include key words from your conversation partner s dialogue.
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You take the last line that they ve just said, and now you use it in your line to inspire your next line of dialogue.
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And you can watch.
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You can see the change in their behavior and their body posture and just their general overall demeanor to see what
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happens when you re listening to them.
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What about the idea that this sounds a little bit constructed or a little bit contrived?
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What if I just take the last line of things people are saying?
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Am I not gonna sound a little bit robotic doing this?
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You definitely will sound robotic if you re doing this exercise directly.
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I mean, this is what we would do in a corporate workshop with someone, but you can definitely practice this at home and then take the key elements and apply it to your everyday life.
2
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So these great listening skills we get from hours and hours of practice on stage but there s no reason why you can t.
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Take the element of that the energy of that and apply it to a party that you re at great but i had this big problem when i was younger i prefer social anxiety so i go to these parties and i need these people.
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And everybody was so boring.
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I hated everybody.
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And I was always looking over their shoulder to see like, oh, those people are laughing.
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I m going to see if I can get in on that conversation or go talk to these people.
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And no matter what party I went to, I always had the same problem.
2
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And it was only after I started improvising that I realized the problem was me.
2
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The problem was that i was not okay with the thing that i was in as soon as i started improvising i started being at parties in conversations with people and if at first i found them boring i realized that was my fault i was the one who was the jerk it was my job to invest in what they were saying harder so that i became interested.
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If I m using all of my faculties, my intelligence, my charm, my sense of humor, and I m using it to make this conversation better, then this conversation will be engaging.
2
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And I found once I started doing that, I started with a group of two people, just me and this other person chatting, and that we would gather people to our conversation.
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So you d start with two people and you d end up with 12 people in a conversation.
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And that was just because I had changed my outlook
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on what I expected from somebody else.
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If I thought of them, it was their job to entertain me, then of course this conversation s gonna fail.
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I m somewhere else, but if I m invested in making the thing that I m in right now the best it possibly can be, then it ll be attractive to others.
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When we get back, let s hit networking, team building, and play versus critical thinking.
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Listen to Ways to Win wherever you get your podcasts.
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We re back, today my guest is Rob Norman of The Second City talking about improv and its application in the workplace and in your personal life.
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Now, you started this sort of mindset shift where if you re in a conversation and it s not interesting, you re taking extreme ownership of that.
2
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That I think is interesting because it sort of removes the idea from the table that other people can even be boring and it puts the onus on you to make the conversation interesting by basically, I don t know what you say, doing more work?
2
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Yeah, I mean just investing more in what they re saying.
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Either you re going to meet someone who has the same interests as you, which is interesting because you get to consolidate your experiences and see what are similar and what are different.
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Or you re going to meet someone who has nothing to do with your life right now.
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And isn t that even more interesting that you get to learn about something new and find out how it applies to your life?
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So each and every conversation is this kind of fun little interview that you get to do and you get to figure out how things work.
2
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It seems like networking would get a lot easier when you actually listen to what other people say and not just hear what s being said, but stop dominating the conversation in hopes of showing our value and impressing others, but listen to increase the value of the conversation itself.
2
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And that can be tricky and very difficult.
2
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It s something that I started learning originally, even before starting The Art of Charm, and it s tough, especially because some people are, in fact, very tough to talk to sometimes.
2
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But again, if you take ownership of that, it becomes the work that you have to do, which is a huge instrument for growth.
2
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Yeah, I guess this comes to that Buddhist philosophy of, let s imagine that you re talking with someone who is challenging to talk to, and the conversation is not going well.
2
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Well, if you re in a judgment place, you ll say, oh my gosh, this conversation is horrible.
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Either I m screwing up, or this person s screwing up.
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Either way, I have to get out of here. 
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As opposed to the improviser who will go, oh my gosh, this conversation is off the rails.
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This might be one of the worst conversations I ve ever had.
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Awesome.
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Where does this go?
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I can t wait to see where this weird conversation is going.
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I m going to invest even deeper into it.
2
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So the idea that if you re okay with what s happening, then nothing can ever go wrong because you re okay with it.
2
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How do you shed your agenda for, I don t know, getting things done, meeting important people, realizing anyway the purpose of the event that you re at or the meeting that you re in?
2
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How do you get rid of that and sort of replace it with the idea that everything is an exploration or everything is a challenge for you that you can win?
2
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I think it was really difficult at first.
2
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I mean, my career is going into a room full of strangers, taking a bite of a sandwich and being like, please cast me in your commercial.
2
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So all of this is a competition and all of my friends are my adversaries.
2
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And it s really easy to get competitive and feel bad about yourself when someone gets a gig and then you don t get that gig.
2
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But I just found from experience that when I ve been less judgmental, when I ve been less critical of myself and others around me, that s when I m at my best.
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That s what I m most powerful.
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So maybe you re going in to pitch a TV show to a network head and you can definitely go in with the mindset, this has to be perfect.
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I m asking for $20 million to make this TV show.
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Maybe I don t have the experience.
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Maybe I don t deserve to be here.
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What if I m found out?
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Oh my gosh, what can I do?
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What can I change?
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That s definitely one mindset.
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to walk into that room.
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The other mindset is to walk into the room and look at the room and be like, wow, this is a really nice room.
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And then meet someone across the table and think, oh my gosh, they re a really nice person.
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And have them talk about what they do on the weekends and really be engaged in that moment.
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And then when the conversation shifts to what TV show are you pitching me right now, really enjoy talking about the TV show that you ve worked so hard on.
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And then I think once you ve walked out of that room,
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then you can reflect on what you did.
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Then you can think, oh my gosh, how could I have done that better?
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How could we work better as a team?
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Because when I m in that room, I don t want to be in my head.
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And that s an improv term.
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I ll explain it really quickly.
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So basically there s two phases for us in improv.
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When I m on stage, either A, I m an improviser thinking,
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Is the show going well?
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Does the audience like me?
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Is there a casting director in the audience?
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Oh, is this scene going well?
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That scene is not going to work.
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I can tell you right now.
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It s going to bomb.
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The other option is, hey, I m a pizza man.
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I m doing a pizza voice.
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Oh, I love pizza.
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I m playing with my partner.
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I m having so much fun with my partner.
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The scene ends.
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Ah, that was great.
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So, the first is in your head.
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You re hyper aware of everything that s happening.
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And the second is, you re in the scene, you re in the character, you re doing the thing that you re doing, and you re enjoying it.
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And that s great improv for us.
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So, I do my best to be in the moment with whoever I m in the room with, as opposed to being in my head about the process.
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That s funny, the in your head thing, the concept of being in your head is something that we use a lot at our boot camps, our live training, because a lot of people, when it comes to tough negotiations, or persuasion, or romantic situations, or social situations, people find themselves in their head.
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This is often very common, even with people who don t realize it.
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They ll be talking with a group, and instead of thinking, all right, let s have fun with this group,
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and just going with the flow and improvising or bantering or whatever you want to call it, whatever techniques you re using, I guess you would say, you can end up getting sucked into this vortex of, oh, am I standing up straight?
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Are my clothes cool?
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These people all have cool clothes on and I feel a little underdressed or maybe I m overdressed.
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Ugh, do I always overdress?
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Oh wait, stand up straight.
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I ate that thing.
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Is my breath bad?
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I should probably back away from that cute girl.
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Oh crap, what was everybody talking about?
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I haven t been listening at all.
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How much time has passed?
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And then you re being weird.
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Absolutely.
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I mean, we try and mirror the product of something, right?
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So let s say I go to a party and I see a cool guy.
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I m like, Oh my gosh, the person has so many friends.
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Look at the cool clothes they re wearing.
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Look at the fun stories.
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Oh man, I wish I was that guy.
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And so we re in our head and maybe we re trying to adjust our personality to be more like that person.
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But if we re trying to be more like that person,
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That person s not thinking about any of those things.
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They re not concerned about the clothes they re wearing or the stories that they re telling.
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The reason why they re able to own the room is because they re not thinking about those things.
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They are free from thinking about those things.
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They are just in it with whoever s around them.
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And so I would say it s more important for us to mirror the process of successful people than to mirror the product or the appearance of those people.
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right?
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Absolutely, and the problem becomes you get sucked into this not even realizing it.
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I think everybody probably does it occasionally.
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It s a product of being really far outside your comfort zone and not necessarily knowing how to deal with it or not being mindful enough to know, hey, I should probably deal with this in an appropriate way.
3
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So you end up doing these things often and the problem is in social situations, it ends up making this very weird disconnect.
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where you suddenly find that you re not only not being yourself at all, but you re not even being anybody you d recognize.
3
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You re being this weird guy who s trying to micromanage and control body language and nonverbal communication while being a bad listener, trying to be funny.
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and nervous at the same time, and that s just a huge recipe for social implosion, whether you re at a business meeting, you re managing somebody, you re trying to convince somebody of something, even when you re just meeting new friends, if you re in that type of role, and I think that later leads to bad experiences, which then teach people, well, I can t do this, or I m not good at this, or I shouldn t try this.
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It s really a dark place to go, and we have to break that pattern with people that come through boot camp.
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Going into the corporate training and some of the other things that you guys do at Second City, with the practical application of improv, tell us about group mind, the concept of group mind and what that does.
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So basically, group mind is the idea that we are not an individual.
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We are a member of a group.
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And so we have to believe that the group is smarter than us and that no individual piece is better than the other.
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So for us, it s important that we re always working as a team.
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You know, you re talking earlier about this party and the idea of people feeling so ashamed that they re not doing well at a party.
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And I feel like, again, this comes to the idea of ego, because they don t feel like they re doing well at a party because they re an individual and maybe they re not standing out.
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What is their goals at that party?
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What s that goals of their interaction with people?
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Is it to be the dominant person that everyone s looking at being like, oh my gosh, that person s so cool and interesting.
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If it is, that s your problem right there.
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You know, if we get rid of that ego and we look at the party as a whole, well, how do we make the party better?
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And by making the party better, you create value in the space.
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So let s say I don t feel good at a party.
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This is what I do all of the time.
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I look for the person who looks more uncomfortable than I do.
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And I walk over to them, and I m not intimidated, because obviously they re freaking out.
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I do my best to make them feel included.
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And by doing that, I create a team.
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Now we re two uncomfortable people at a party full of people who are great.
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With that two people, I can go and meet another uncomfortable person.
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And as we continue along the way, great, I m networking, I m making connections, I m adding value in this space, and I ve made the party better.
3
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And I find that technique has been so helpful
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Because it s not about me trying to dominate others or control their perceptions of me.
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I m adding value to a place where there was no value before and I m getting out of the way.
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I m getting rid of my wants, my desires, the petty things that I want to connect with this person or I want to sell an idea to this person.
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I m getting rid of that completely.
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And now I m just being in the moment and being in the space with the people that are there with me.
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I love the idea that no one is smarter than the group.
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It allows for that success beyond the individual.
3
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How do we apply that maybe in a personal relationship with a close friend or a significant other?
3
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I think it s about understanding, right?
3
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You know, someone brings an idea, could be something as simple as going to get sushi, or it could be an idea of, you know, if you re in an intimate relationship with someone and they have a different way of approaching things,
3
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Again, we meet those ideas with conflict.
3
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I think we have to step back and say, no, you are as smart as I am.
3
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This idea is as good as my idea.
3
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It s just different than mine.
3
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How do we synthesize those ideas together?
3
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Again, there s a wisdom in crowds.
3
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They did this study about a bunch of people were guessing the weight of a cow.
3
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They had a bunch of cow experts in this county fair and they assumed that the cow expert would be the closest one but it was actually the group that was smarter because each different person had a different perspective on what a cow was.
3
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And so for all of our relationships when we encounter a new idea we have to remember that someone else s different experiences and although they may not bring the right
3
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answer to the table, they re always bringing the right perspective, because it s a different perspective than yours.
3
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Something as simple as someone giving you an idea that doesn t fit with your idea is valuable, because it challenges your idea, and it makes your idea better.
3
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So every time an idea is offered, we have to think of it as a gift, and that s a big thing.
3
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We talk about an idea on stage in improv as an offer or as a gift, and we have to be thankful for each and every one of those.
3
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All right, when we get back, I want to talk about play versus critical thinking and the concept of removal or removing the judgment.
3
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This is AOC.
3
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We re back with Rob Norman talking about improv as it applies to team building, our professional and personal relationships.
3
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I d love to discuss the idea of play versus critical thinking.
3
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I know that no judgment is a rule in improv.
3
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Can you describe that process and why that s useful?
3
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Well, again, we don t want to be deciding things in an improv scene.
3
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We want to be improvising an improv scene.
3
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So for us, we re trying not to have right or wrong answers.
3
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So we ve just gotten rid of that idea completely.
3
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In improv, there are no wrong answers.
3
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If you walk on stage and say something, you make a statement, it s true for this scene that we re doing.
3
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The reality is true.
3
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If you make a mistake,
3
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If you mispronounce a word, for this scene, that is how that word is pronounced.
3
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And that s great, because when we remove the idea of right and wrong from our play, we re allowed to be more free and more open.
3
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And in improv, it doesn t really matter.
3
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If we do something correctly,
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Great, the audience will think we re really smart.
3
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If we make a mistake, then the audience will laugh, provided we re okay with that mistake.
3
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If we own that mistake, then everyone in the room goes, oh, okay, I can relax.
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This is the new reality that we re in.
4
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So we re trying to play as much as possible.
4
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We re trying to get rid of the internal editor that says to us, that s stupid.
4
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No, that s wrong.
4
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You don t know what you re talking about.
4
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You re an imposter.
4
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You don t belong here.
4
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You re not an actual archeologist.
4
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The things you re saying, they re not real.
4
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We all know that you re a liar.
4
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Get rid of it.
4
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Yeah, I m gonna be an archeologist to the best of my ability and that s all I have to do.
4
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Be there, be present, and either way we win.
4
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Yeah, I think for me, I am trying to engage with the people around me the best I possibly can without judging them, if I can, because that allows us to connect better.
4
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It s that judgment that gets in the way, right?
4
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It s my ego and it s my sense of morality and right and wrong and true and untrue that stops us from having a conversation.
4
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I mean, if you want to frustrate someone, in the middle of them speaking,
4
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correct their grammar, correct an idea.
4
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If they re speaking figuratively, correct it or call that out and watch what happens.
4
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Immediately the conversation ends and our kind of trust is destroyed.
4
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So for us, it s about playing with people more.
4
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It s about the idea of when we remove the idea of right and wrong, we re allowed to engage with people in a more open, authentic way.
4
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How is improv then different from comedy?
4
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Are these different things?
4
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Do they require separate definitions here?
4
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A lot of people want to be funny because they think that ll make them well-liked.
4
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Because often people, and especially women, oh, his sense of humor s so great, and guys are like, great, okay, gotta be hilarious.
4
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Where s the difference, and how does this affect us if we try to be funny?
4
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It s not just men, it s also women now too.
4
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I mean, comedy is such a valuable resource for people.
4
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And so, constantly at classes, we re getting people showing up with the hopes of being more outgoing or being funnier.
4
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And it s strange when people talk about improv as comedy.
4
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because we don t really do jokes.
4
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For us, the funniest people on tour in any Second City show is always either the MD or the stage manager.
4
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They re usually the people who have the best jokes.
4
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Improvisers aren t necessarily naturally funny, but we seem to be very funny.
4
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And the reason why is because of risk.
4
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So, for us as improvisers, we re not on stage telling jokes, we re not stand-ups.
4
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Our job is to take the biggest risk possible.
4
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And the bigger risk we take, the more powerful we seem on stage, and that elicits laughter.
4
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So, the reason why we re paid the $5 to $10 per improv show is because
4
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Yeah, you ve paid to see someone do something on stage that you would never ever do yourself.
4
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You re terrified to do it yourself, and for you in the audience, you re watching an improv as a champion.
4
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They re so brave, they re taking this risk that you couldn t, and that usually translates into comedy.
4
SPEAKER_03
Take an improv class.
4
SPEAKER_03
They re super fun, and I think it changed my life, and I ve seen firsthand the students  amazing growth from individuals
4
SPEAKER_02
I can vouch for this.
4
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Like I said before and earlier in the show, I took an improv class here, three-day intensive.
4
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I m taking the next three-day intensive with level two.
4
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I didn t grow a ton from level one, but a lot of people in the class really did.
4
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And level two I m excited about as well.
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Level one was good enough for me to see the value in moving forward.
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And I highly recommend it.
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a great way to start getting out of your shell.
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There were people in the class who were clearly taking the course simply because they were very much the wallflower, or very much the quiet gal who never said anything.
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And a lot of folks, there were people from other countries that were having trouble making friends.
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I mean, it was really good.
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way for them to start the process of coming out of their shell.
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I don t think it solves the problems that in-depth training or therapy or something like that would solve because it s not designed to do that.
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But it is designed to sort of break down the barriers that you have in your head that are keeping you inside instead of being able to express yourself a little bit better socially and in the workplace.
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So thank you very much.
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Oh, my pleasure.
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Rob, you do a show as well about these topics called The Backline, essentially the business of being a professional in this space.
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Where can people find that?
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You can find us on iTunes and Stitcher.
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Also, you can find us on our website at podbean.com slash The Backline.
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And you do that with Adam Colley, who couldn t join us today because he s out making money doing what you guys do.
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I mean, he s probably selling sandwiches or something, I don t know, some kind of commercial.
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Great, thanks so much.
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My pleasure.
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Interesting show, you know, it s always funny to me to see how pretty much every skill that we learn that s a soft skill can be brought into our personal lives and relationships, but there s almost this invisible wall of getting good at a skill in a certain arena, like comedy and doing it on stage, and just forgetting to apply it in other areas of our life, and it seems like improv is one where it s a very natural transition.
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You just have to be cognizant of doing it, and make it a part of your daily habit and practice.
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What I really liked about Rob s take on it was he really defined the fact that improv is a team sport.
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You know, you re in it for the team where, you know, stand up in general comedy is you re a one person show and you re looking to hog the limelight.
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But as improv, like an improv person in real life, you are just looking to make everybody around you look better.
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Yeah, and there s power in that.
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Removal of ego, bringing others up instead of down, or up instead of neutral is huge, and will lead to you not only being more well-liked, but being more effective.
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If you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Rob on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as comedy resources and his podcast.
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I m also on Twitter.
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I post a lot of stuff there that never makes it on the show for one reason or another.
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I m at theartofcharm on Twitter, and you can find our amazing sponsors in the show notes or go to theartofcharm.com slash advertisers.
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Also, don t forget about the social capital challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed to 33444.
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That s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
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The challenge is about improving your networking and connection skills, and inspiring those around you to develop relationships, personal and professional, with you.
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We ll also email you our fundamentals toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show, and I ve got regular weekly videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward every week.
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It ll make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker.
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That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or text charmed to 33444.
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This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFillippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor, and show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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Now stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.