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In this episode of the Advanced Selling Podcast, I share a triumphant carnival game experience, we compare selling to car washes, and we take on the question, which selling system is the best?
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Welcome back, everybody, to the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest running sales training podcast in podcast history.
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My name is Brian Neal.
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It s quite an experience for you there, wasn t it?
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Go.
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Bill s the director, as you can see what it s like behind the scenes here.
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When Bill just says go, I go.
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Hey, we re glad you re with us.
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If you are booking a sales meeting, send us an email.
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You know we like to be on the road, out on the road.
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I m going to be out for like two weeks on the road.
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Some for fun, some for work.
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Send us an email, listener at advancedsellingpodcast.com.
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Come see us into the subject line.
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We will get in touch with you and talk about how that works.
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Really, really fun to go see how it works.
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Also, we ve got an episode.
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It s like a special episode.
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Are you talking about the app?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, for those of you who are app, you have the Advanced Selling Podcast app.
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This week, in fact, by the time you hear this, it ll already be up.
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We interviewed, we actually didn t interview Doug Bowles, but he spoke at an event that we did.
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Doug is president of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.
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And they do the Indy 500, and the Brickyard, and several other races there at Indianapolis.
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And he is really a good guy.
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He came by this live podcast that we did here a few weeks ago during the month of May.
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And we captured some of his stories and some of his philosophy on customer experience, which we found
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really interesting.
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And so rather than run it on the main show here, we put it on the app.
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So if you re not an app user, and you enjoy racing, or you enjoy just listening to people talk about good customer experience and good customer service, Doug Bowles was a fantastic orator of that.
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Yes, and I would say also, even if you re not, and you re like Indianapolis Motor Speedway, never, I don t know, I don t like racing, it s not my deal, that s fine.
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Listen to it for business, because Doug is
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He s such a great leader, and he s so good, as Bill was talking about, with the client experience.
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There are some lessons in there for every one of you, guaranteed.
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So check that one out.
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And he also asked, you asked a question about, what do you do when you re called on by a salesperson?
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Yes.
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And we re not going to tell you the answer.
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You ve got to listen to it.
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It s a great answer.
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Yes.
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It was a good answer.
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And he is a high-level guy, at least especially in our town, but in the sports world.
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And he gets called on a lot, and he s got a great answer for that, I thought.
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So if you re not already an app holder, what is an app holder?
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I don t know, an app user?
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User, subscriber.
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You just get it.
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You have it.
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Get the app.
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It s free.
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And you ll be able to download the Doug Bowles interview.
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Yeah, it is the best way to consume the podcast.
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So it s summertime, Bill.
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I ve been doing some stuff with the kids.
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I went to an amusement park called Kings Island.
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In Cincinnati, Ohio, for those of us who live in the Midwest, kind of a destination place, grew up going there.
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It s really fun to then go back and take your kids back 40 years later.
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I ve been trying to do the ring toss game.
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You know the little ring toss game?
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It s virtually impossible to win.
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I won that when I was in sixth grade, when I was 12.
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And every time I go to Kings Island, I spend $20 every time.
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And I ve been doing it for 38 years to try to win that.
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And I came home empty-handed again.
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Again.
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And my kids are like, Dad, what are you doing?
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I said, you know what?
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I know I can win.
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I ve done it once.
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Did you tell him?
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Absolutely.
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You tell him every time you go.
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I get a big bucket every time.
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And I visualize me winning.
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And I remember when I did all this stuff.
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And I keep throwing the stuff in.
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Visualize the feeling.
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But on the way out then, I stopped at a basketball hoop shooting thing.
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And there were a bunch of teenage boys, like eighth, ninth graders, shooting and all this stuff.
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So I step up, three balls, $10.
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I turn my hat backwards.
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It s one of those little free throw rims.
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You know what I m talking about?
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And it s the, I did the long ball one, which is like a three pointer with kind of overinflated basketballs.
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First shot, banked it in, done.
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These kids like, whoa, you know, the kids like jump up and down.
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I m like, that s how we roll in Indiana boys.
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It just give you a little bit of ounce of pride.
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That s good.
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Banking.
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It wasn t so cool.
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Kind of a dead thing to do, but I didn t.
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It was really funny, though.
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So I have this six-foot jalapeno pepper in my garage, if anybody wants that.
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So that s my little carnival story for the week.
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For the basketball?
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I did, yes.
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Really, really fun.
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OK.
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Hey, Bill, before we get to our topic, you know, we ve been mentoring and training sales professionals for years now.
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And one of the most important elements to career success is aligning yourself with a company that develops employees, values its customers, and has a portfolio of products that compete with anyone in the market.
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That s why we recommend our listeners have CenturyLink at the top of their list when they look for a new career opportunity.
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With the recent acquisition of Level 3, the new CenturyLink has become a world leader in the areas of cloud, security, real-time communications, managed services, and hybrid IT.
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If you re a top performer who s looking for a fresh start in 2018, visit centurylink.com slash advanced selling and join their talent community.
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Once you join the talent community, a member of their team will reach out to you soon to connect and see if a career at CenturyLink is the right step for you.
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Go to centurylink.com slash advanced selling.
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Topic.
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So I saw an interesting comment on LinkedIn on my random feed.
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And it was a VP of sales.
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And he asked a simple question, what selling system is the best?
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And by selling system, he meant the challenger sale, Sandler, spend, that sort of thing.
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There were some really cool comments.
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And one of the comments kind of caught my eye and got us thinking about this episode, which is, one, what is the best?
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what s your opinion on that?
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And before that, though, should you even have one?
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Because one of the guys put a comment where he said, hey, if you re thinking that sales is about techniques and phrasing and those little things, and he said, your buyer s going to hit the snooze button on you.
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So we thought it would be good to do kind of a dual-headed episode here about selling systems.
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So we re going to first talk about, should we even have one?
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at all.
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And then we re going to have an answer for that.
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We re going to kind of riff on some of the systems that are out there, plus and minus.
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And then we re going to go on the second episode with the advanced selling podcast-ish process or selling system.
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If we were going to build one for you, what would it look like?
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Yeah, and maybe in the second episode, if you are interested in designing your own methodology for your own business, that s where we will give you some foundational elements and some framework.
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So for sure.
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Yeah, I ve got a list here, Brian, of the five or six of the largest sales training organizations that you would say have methodologies.
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These are in no particular order.
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Solutions Selling.
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is big and has been around for a long time.
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Spin selling was, who was the guy?
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Neil Rackham.
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Neil Rackham, Dartmouth.
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That s local.
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That was a local guy.
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But wasn t Rackham a
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He was a professor somewhere.
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Anyway, Miller-Hyman, which they do more than training.
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They do tests and personality tests and a lot of different things.
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The Challenger Sale, which has come on the scene here in the last five to seven years.
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And then the Sandler Sales Institute, or Sandler Sales Training, which has been around for about 30 years.
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So those are five.
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There are a variety.
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There s millions, thousands of other subcategories of those.
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But those are, I would say, the big five.
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Yeah, and I think most of you who are listening, I shouldn t say most of you, maybe not.
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I would be curious to know how many of our listeners have been exposed to one of these that we ve read or something else and what they think about this question.
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This could be something maybe Travis could put up to in the LinkedIn group to get our own opinion of our own listeners of what they think.
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So what s your opinion, Bill, first on just the whole selling system?
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Should I have one or shouldn t I?
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We ve got these in front of us, Miller-Hyman Challenger, Sandler Spend Solution.
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Do you have a first take?
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Not of which one.
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You mean of system or no?
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Yeah.
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System or no.
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Yeah, I think we need, in sales today, I think we need some kind of a foundational philosophy of how we work, what we believe in, what we believe our role to be, what we believe the prospect s role to be.
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So yeah, I don t know that I would call it a sales methodology.
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I think it s more of a sales philosophy, just how do we
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How do we look at ourselves?
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And how do we look at the context of a buyer and a seller?
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What are we there to do?
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Are we just there to sell?
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Is that all we re there to do?
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And of course, we think it s not.
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So I think you need some kind of a framework or a philosophy.
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But I know I m familiar with all five of these.
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Yes.
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And I don t think any one of these is the best.
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I think they all serve a purpose.
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Yeah.
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I would agree completely with that.
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And if you re in a company.
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that s utilizing or has bought into one of these methodologies, my first response to this is, good for you.
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You re doing something.
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You re not just handed a phone book.
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A phone book, right?
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Welcome to 1989.
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Our listeners don t even know what a phone book is, right?
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Well, you re sitting on one.
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I see you re sitting on one.
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I should be.
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I m only six feet.
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You are.
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Yeah, so you re not just handed a big list to call in the phone and said, go do it.
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Your company s invested in some way, shape, or form in methodology.
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I think that s an OK thing.
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That s better than nothing at all.
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Yeah, I agree.
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I agree.
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I think the risk in going all in.
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And the other thing is, of the people that endorse these things, all think theirs is the best.
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Right.
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There are zealots.
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They become zealots.
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And there s a couple of these here who are super zealots.
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Yes.
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And if you say anything that disagrees with their philosophy or their method, they will take you to the woodshed.
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They will.
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That s heavy duty.
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Heavy duty to woodshed.
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Yeah.
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So I think you always have to be careful about saying, my way is the only
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or the Sandler way or the Challenger is the only way.
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I just don t think we re in a world where there s one solution and that s it, and there s no good idea in these other solutions, because there are.
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No, and if you watch, I get the beauty of getting to watch NFL football from the field.
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And if you watch the history of film, if I watch film from the 70s and 80s, which we still have some of those games, the offenses the NFL team runs are night and day different.
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And some of those coaches have been coaching since then.
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And what you ve seen happen is they have these core philosophies, like you talked about earlier, that are at their core, that that s how they do it and the things that work.
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Above that, though, they ve layered on and layered on and layered on other things from other people and places as the game has evolved.
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And that, to me, is the massive risk that you take as a sales organization if you go all in on just one.
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You have to be able to add to it because you re going to miss.
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from all of them, right?
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So there s something from a Miller-Hyman shop, right, is missing something by not being open to some challenger ideas or whatever, that sort of thing.
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So I think that s the big thing to listen to here is no matter what philosophy you ve bought into, do not be closed off to other things and other elements from the outside.
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It s really, really risky, in my opinion.
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So let s look.
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I just drew a clever little two circles.
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Are they concentric circles?
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Is that one inside the other?
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I don t remember.
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Isn t concentric where it goes from the inside to outside like that?
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Yeah, so I ve got one on the inside and then on the outside.
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That s kind of a cheese wheel.
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The inside circle contains all of the things like when you get in front of a prospect.
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like the questioning, and the answering, and the handling, the objection, and all these things that the big fives talk about.
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But there s a lot that s not on that that these guys never talk about, like prospecting.
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They don t talk about it.
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I mean, Sandler may a little bit.
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I don t know about Challenger.
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But there s no Challenger to zero.
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There s no devotion to, OK, what is your plan?
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How much you want to earn in the next year?
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What s the strategy?
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How many people do you need to see a month?
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What s your prospect?
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Is it social media?
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Is it content?
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What is it?
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That s one.
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Number two, I don t think many of them do a good job of really helping the client or the sales professional understand their own value.
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Right.
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I don t think they do a good job of talking about the mental side, the inner game, all the things that happen inside your head that certainly they don t.
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I mean, that s where it all begins.
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So I think there s some things outside here none of these guys address.
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No.
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And they don t talk about social media or social marketing at all either that I have found in these books that I ve read.
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Well, these are all old systems, Brian.
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Every one of them, except for Challenger.
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But Challenger is not a prospect.
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It s 2011.
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That s the other thing people forget.
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You think, oh, Challenger is getting buzz now.
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It was published in 2011.
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And think about how rapidly the markets have changed in seven years.
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So noted.
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You get me all fired up.
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You crapped on my point.
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But anyway.
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No, I didn t.
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No, I endorsed your point.
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You re right.
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So regardless of if you select one of these or you re already using one of these, I think there are some things outside the donut hole that also apply, like what is your value?
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How do you talk about it?
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What kind of plans do you have?
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What is your vision for yourself and your business and your territory or your team if you re a VP of sales?
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All that stuff really matters, and it s not talked about here.
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So why do you think companies invest in a system like this?
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Predictability.
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They want certainty and a predictability in a world that offers you none.
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That s it.
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That s exactly what they want.
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And what s interesting is, and I came from a big company who was really good at this, my very first job.
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If you do stats long enough, you can make the stats look however you want them to look, right?
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You just have to keep measuring and measuring and measuring.
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And it s so funny how even the challenger sale, they talk about the challengers outperform the other four sales personality types.
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by a significant amount percentage-wise.
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And they ve got the numbers and the stats and all the people that they interviewed.
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And they said, we were really surprised to find this out.
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I m like, no, you weren t.
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You weren t surprised at all.
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You kept looking until you found the stats so you could write a book.
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So you weren t surprised.
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Don t tell me that.
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I know better.
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I know those things work.
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And it s great that you did all that, right?
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And we can measure.
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I was surprised.
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I was right the whole time.
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I didn t realize it.
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We went to 100 companies.
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We picked the 40.
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When we measured those, proved our point.
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Those are the ones in our study.
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So there s that.
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That s funny.
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Well, that s good.
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So those five.
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So you weigh in on this by saying that, yes, you need some kind of a framework, but not necessarily one of these.
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And it s more than just these.
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Yes.
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I think you need your own personal selling philosophy that fits for you.
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And we talked about this.
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What s also missing in all of these systems is the customer s input, or the customer s process, and how they buy, and what they do, and how they think, and things like that.
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And I think all those things should go into the mix to say, for the customers and clients that I m trying to attract, this is the best methodology for them, if that makes sense.
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I also think that for the people
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who have these systems in their own companies, a lot of times they re not used.
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So you go from the zealot, which is they think they re using it all the time.
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They re really not.
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But they think all the way to, yeah, we ve been through a lot of Miller-Hyman, but I don t really use it personally.
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And that s what we typically hear.
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And it s hard, because if there s no reinforcement, even with our system, when we go out, if they say come out once, well, there s no reinforcement.
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So you re really not going to be able to use it.
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So I would suggest that if you re not using anything, stay tuned for next episode.
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Now that we ve talked about these five and a little bit about them for how do you devise your own philosophy?
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What if you had one that was better than in any of these five?
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Yes.
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And I think that s the fun part for, I think, what individuals want.
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Most individuals these days don t want to be boxed into something they can t get out of.
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It doesn t make them feel good or inspired or anything like that.
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And I think what you re going to hear in our next episode, Bill and I are going to coach you through how to develop your own.
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And your own can also fit into these methodologies.
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Yeah.
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So what s great about it is if your company is paid for Miller-Hyman and you have to use all their account management tools, which are really slick, you can still use some things that are your own philosophy that ll make you
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just own the whole process better for yourself.
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I was just thinking about a guy that I know here in town.
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He went through his company, put them through.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t know which one of these it was.
1
SPEAKER_01
And if I did, I probably wouldn t even say it because it doesn t matter.
1
SPEAKER_01
But they spent $350,000.
1
SPEAKER_01
It was a sales force of about 25 people for one year s worth of training.
1
SPEAKER_01
His name was Scott.
1
SPEAKER_01
And he showed me the manual after the first, I think they did like a four-day orientation.
1
SPEAKER_01
And there wasn t much following that.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t know whether the four days was 350 or 250 or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_01
But I said, well, how did you like it?
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, he was saying, you know, I know you re in the business.
1
SPEAKER_01
I thought you d like to see this.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I said, well, how did you like the four days?
1
SPEAKER_01
He goes, eh.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I thought, $300,000?
1
SPEAKER_00
And that s when I get to, eh.
1
SPEAKER_00
There s just nothing there.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then think of what we say.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we say, put them through.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s what we say.
1
SPEAKER_00
I know.
1
SPEAKER_00
I know.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then what they ll say is, well, we went through, or my company put us through.
1
SPEAKER_00
Miller, it s like a car wash.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
1
SPEAKER_01
It s like, well, I feel clean for about 10 minutes.
1
SPEAKER_01
Even the language we use implies that we re not going to use it.
1
SPEAKER_00
We re just going to go through it.
1
SPEAKER_00
We re going to go through this.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it s going to end.
1
SPEAKER_00
And gosh, man, I can t wait till I get out.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can t wait till Friday.
1
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
But we fake it, well, oh man, who s learned something?
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I have, I have learned that I don t want to be in this room anymore.
1
SPEAKER_00
I really like this tool you gave us here, this strategic account management tool, I really like that one.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay, great.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so next time we re going to talk about your own methodology.
1
SPEAKER_01
We are.
1
SPEAKER_01
All right, see you next time.
1
SPEAKER_01
Bye.
1
SPEAKER_01
Bye.