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Welcome back to the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest running sales training podcast in the world as it relates to sales podcasts.
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I m Bill Kastner.
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I m Brian Neal.
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Brian is out and about today.
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He s in a tunnel, a tunnel full of love.
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I m in a client.
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I probably picked the wrong room.
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This is like a fishbowl room.
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Like it s a bunch of windows and stuff.
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Probably a little echoey.
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It s really, really difficult for Bill to record a podcast with me after 16 years of doing this with that audio.
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It s kind of like, dude, what are you doing?
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Like Bill would be thinking, we ve been doing this for 16 years.
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Why don t you have a portable?
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you know, portable microphone, right?
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Exactly, I understand.
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And I did it because I thought, like I said last episode, it s the newscasters, but anyway.
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Hey, by the way, before I get, Insider.
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tell us about Insider.
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As far as Insider goes, still an awesome group.
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We got about 70-75 people in it.
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We meet every month, the first Friday of the month.
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If you would go to advancedsellingpodcast.com slash Insider, there s some information there.
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If you have
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It s not thought about getting into it.
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It s really good.
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It s an hour and 15 minutes of coaching.
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I coach people in the group.
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They coach each other.
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You know what it really is.
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It s a time for us to come together as a profession and get to know each other and get to know what issues we have and how we can help each other solve those issues.
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It s not group therapy.
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I ll break people up into groups of two or three, and I ll say, look, I got a problem with this client, or I m trying to figure out a way to generate more leads.
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And the other person s like, well, yeah, I can tell you.
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I can help you with that.
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So there s a lot of mutual help going on.
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Go to advancingpodcast.com slash insider.
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Everybody do that.
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Here s a question, Bill.
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Airport question.
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Do you think, I said this on another podcast I was on.
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I want to get your take on this.
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Do you think it s more difficult to walk up an escalator that has stopped moving?
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versus stairs than stairs.
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Do you think, why?
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Do you know why?
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I don t know why I m asking that question.
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Is it mental?
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Or is it like the stairs are physically higher?
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I don t think so.
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It s mental, isn t it?
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It s weird, isn t it?
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And there s a, you know, the people movers on the, in the airports, some of the airport a lot.
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And I take the people mover, not a laziness out of efficiency.
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I mean, I fly for the airport really fast and I hit those people movers to make it faster.
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And then I hit, and I m habitual.
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So I hit this one, you know, the other day I had a flight a few weeks ago and it was stopped.
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I was like, shoot, it was stopped.
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And I m like, it feels like I m slogging through quicksand.
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I just can t move on this stop thing.
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It s just the ground.
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It s all it is.
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It s metal instead of tile.
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What is that?
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Is that a mentality?
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Do we have any psychologists that can tell us what the answer is to that?
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Why it s- I guess you ve been on an escalator
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40 000 times that move and now now you re asking me to compute this one that doesn t move So it s just not computing and so my legs are not used to yeah, that s probably just emotional Do you think the uh down escalator is the world s laziest invention?
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I think it has to be doesn t it?
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I mean, a golf cart would be there, right, to drive you around.
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I mean, it s negative calorie burn going down, but gravity is helping you.
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Yet, we do the escalator and we stand on it.
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We just stand to help level us down.
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Yeah, as an old man in your presence, I think going downstairs
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You re going downstairs is harder for me than going up going up.
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I have no problem.
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My knees don t hurt But when you re in that downward kind of pressure Yes, so I would always vote if you re listening if you re if you re otis escalator and you re listening to this podcast do not Do not delete the uh, but I always have those yeah on those people movers I always get I get on them too like flying in the air is kind of brushing my hair back and then yeah, and then it comes to an end and i m like I walk slow
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I don t do it like you hit a wall or something like you hit, like there s a bungee cord behind you.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I m 6 5 with long legs and when I get off those things, I m like, man, I m walking like I m 5 3.
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And I do think we have some, we have some Otis listeners and I think we have some Kone.
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Kone is one of their competitors.
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So we d love for someone from Kone or from Otis, elevator escalator people, to shoot something to us in the LinkedIn group.
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and just say, you know, maybe we ll have Travis post something up there about why is it harder to walk up a stopped escalator, see if our Otis and Kone friends can answer.
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Have a little competition.
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Yeah, we could have a whole series on escalator, escalator maintenance, escalator.
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All right, right, right.
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Okay, here s a topic today.
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I am on Anthony Iannarino s email and every Sunday night he writes a very thoughtful
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Thought-provoking email, sends it out.
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And we re going to try to get him on the show to talk about this thing that I want to share with you a little bit.
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I want to get your opinion on it.
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His main point of this email, he s a sales coach, sales trainer, sales consultant, strategist.
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is that we ve gone through kind of a metamorphosis of sales person that used to be thought of as stereotypical, a little sleazy back in the 60s, 50s, 60s, 70s, a little, you know, what was the guy from WKRP?
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Les Nesman?
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Les Nesman, kind of Les Nesman, crazy wild jackets and white shoes.
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Oh, that s Freddie Fever, isn t it?
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What s his name?
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Freddie Fever?
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And Anthony says, and we did that for about 20 years.
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And I said, well, you know, I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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I don t want to do that.
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But he says now that we have regressed, and regressed to not necessarily the patent leather shoes and the bucks, but to really, we are so focused on the numbers, we really don t care about the customer s plight.
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And I see this a lot when I work with VPs of sales, and I can just tell by their language sometimes that they really don t care all that much about whether the client is satisfied with the purchase.
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It is a numbers game.
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And that s his, now he doesn t come out and say that.
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I think that s at the root of this.
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So now the salesperson is getting pushed every day.
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You got to make more calls, make more calls, pressure.
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We got to, we got to get this closed.
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We got five closed before the end of the day.
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And I know in your world, it doesn t sound like that probably, but somebody in your world saying, Hey, quarter s coming to an end.
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And what do you have hanging out there?
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Do we have any low-hanging fruit, as we used to say?
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So I ll stop there, and then I ll share with you how he sees this, what he calls the atrocious strategies of the techno brutes.
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and we ll talk more about that.
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What do you think about this?
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Snappy title there, snappy title.
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Spot on.
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Here s where I think the how I see it first in clients and even prospective clients is I got to meet them for the first time.
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Two things.
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One is the
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the propensity to want to get to demo or pitch as quickly as possible.
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And people see that in a desperation, in a, in a sense, with a sense of desperation, they see it as the closest place, the closest element to closing.
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If I could get Bill, if I could, you know, as quickly as I can get to tell you about my, all my programs and our coaching systems and things that we have, I feel then the quicker I am to get a sale.
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And so we, we rush through the discovery.
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this questioning stuff to get to the, we want to pitch too quick, premature pitching, premature pitching.
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And then before that, there s a problem with the discovery too.
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We discover like the DJ and in Wayne s world,
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I don t know if you remember, Handsome Dan is the character s name.
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And Wayne s World, old movie, you have to go Google it.
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But you know, it s Mike Myers and Dana Carvey.
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And they they re pitching this big event concert they re having.
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And they re at this real famous DJ, this guy, Handsome Dan, everybody knows Handsome Dan.
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And he s interviewing them.
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And he asked him a question.
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And there he asked him a question, they give the answer.
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And Handsome Dan s messing around with his cart machines.
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He s going, huh?
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Uh-huh.
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Uh-huh.
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He s not listening at all.
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So then mike meyer goes and you re not listening to a word I m saying and he hits and then it goes.
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Uh-huh.
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Uh-huh.
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Okay.
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Uh-huh.
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Uh-huh That s how we discover these days.
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That s how we do discovery Uh, yes, what are your biggest problems that oh, i m really really struggling.
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Oh, okay.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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God got it What you know, we just like hang on time out slow down and i m good
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I m going to go out of business if I don t fix that problem.
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Okay, cool.
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Let me show you.
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Let me pull up the tool here and take a look at this.
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I think you re really going to like what you see here.
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Did you just hear me say that I m going to go out of business in 30 days if I don t fix this?
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We discover for us, not for them.
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And there s no element of discernment.
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in the discovery.
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We don t listen to them and go, Bill, if you re getting ready to go out of business, one, you shouldn t be spending money with me.
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Two, is there anything I can do to help you guys pass?
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Because you don t need to be buying software right now.
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Because that means I heard you.
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So those are the big problems for me.
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Premature pitching and handsome Dan version discovery.
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Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, there was a coach back in the 60s named John Wooden.
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He coached, he was actually from Indiana, but he coached the UCLA Bruins to many, many national NCAA titles, basketball college.
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And he was a philosopher, at least that s how he fancied himself, and he had a lot of triangles and a lot of boxes and a lot of things.
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But he did say something I really liked, said a lot of things I liked, but he said, you go slow to get there quicker.
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And his idea was that
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everything can t be at breakneck speed in a game.
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It s got to be paced and sometimes you go slow and when you go slow you might get by someone quicker because then you can speed up and if it s just all breakneck speed people are people are ready for it.
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I think it s the same thing here when you re
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Talking to a potential client on the first call, go slow.
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Slow the hell down.
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Don t rush to the close, because then what happens?
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They put their hands up like, oh, wait a minute.
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Oh, I see what this is.
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You wanted to see what my problem was, but only in the context of wanting to sell me something.
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You know what?
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I think we ll just, we re going to hold off on this right now.
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If you would have gone slower, they never would have got that feeling.
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And they might ve said, yeah, you know what?
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I think you need to talk to our VPs, our two VPs and CEO.
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I think, I think that s a good idea.
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Well, would you like to set that up?
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Yeah.
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Let me, give me a couple of days.
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So you go slow to get there quicker.
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Yes.
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And, and what you re saying too, there, people don t have the space to react, to let them think.
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We have to give people a space to think.
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So I was just working with our internal team, and we can do this, our internal team, we have a development area here, we want to go through the process real quick, we get a little transactional, we re going to move through it, get to the programs, because we because we teach like efficiency and process, we ve gone
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far that way.
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We need to really delve in because again, this whole closing percentage thing, 25 out of 100, and you said I think a few episodes, you thought even that was high.
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Either way, 25 out of 100 are ready for sales coaching from Bill or Brian at any one given time.
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That means 75 aren t.
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So I need to do good discovery to listen and learn to go, okay, based on what I m hearing, I m going to recommend you go start at a Sandler President s Club first.
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to get that kind of fundamental basic stuff down.
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And then when it s time, I think you and I would be better served in a year or so after going through that.
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You re not ready.
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Yeah, you re not ready there.
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Totally.
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For some of the stuff we re going to go, you re doing, you know, we re doing like social media campaigns and personal branding on me, you know, you just need some basic fundamental sales language.
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Go get that first.
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Um, and then let s reconnect, you know, Dallas staying in touch lightly over the year and go from there.
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And then now you re gone because it s good discovery.
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Cause it s true.
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You don t need what we do to the level that we have it right now.
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Yeah, I ve said recently, I ve come up with this number that you ought to be closing 75% of your deals, which probably means you re going to be working on a hell of a lot fewer deals.
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But your discovery is not just for you, but like you said, it s for them.
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I mean, you re helping them discover things.
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If they understood the problems they had, they would have already solved it without you.
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They wouldn t have called you.
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The fact that they called you or reached out or went to a website or something tells me they re not really quite sure of their problem and they d like help.
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Well, don t show up and just assume they know it.
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You ve got to discover for yourself, but also to help them.
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As I close up here, here s what else Anthony says here in his newsletter.
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He says that we don t bring value.
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The legacy approach to sales really doesn t bring value.
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And that is evidenced by how many times a person gets a first meeting, but then doesn t get a second meeting because a customer says, well, you bring me no value.
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You re just trying to pitch me on something.
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Yes.
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More evidence is a number of pipeline, number of opportunities in the pipeline that are old enough to get their own driver s license.
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I like that.
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Number two is 700,000 sales job vacancies and no one wants them.
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The article explained that jobs pay better than other options and provide much more autonomy.
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But when young people take sales roles, their tenure is slightly greater than the life of a fruit fly because they ve always had that feeling of, well, this is beneath me.
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And so they move in and out quickly.
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And then he talks a little bit about what s called the atrocious strategies of techno brutes.
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And the techno brutes are those people who
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who use technology and are flat out annoying with it.
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So I used to get an email every three months from a guy from, I can t remember the name of the company, it was like a Transamerica or something.
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And it was obvious he had a tickler system, we used to call it back before.
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A tickler system where every quarter I popped up, he d send an email.
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Now he wouldn t even have to write the email, it would all be automatic.
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And it just, I don t know, it just, I mean, I m all for tech.
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And he, I think he s right here is we have gone to this scaling automation, digital
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we can automate everything, so let s automate everything.
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And I think five years ago, people were like, wow, yeah, that s really interesting.
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Brian sent me a note.
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That s really nice of him to stop what he was doing and send me.
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And then now we re like, oh, I know what this is.
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Yes.
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And so, again, this is not about digital.
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It s about are you using it in a way that causes the prospect who s getting this thing to say, oh, that was a nice note from Brian.
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Or does it just sound like, hey, you re ready to buy from me yet?
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Because that s the way it usually sounds.
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That s exactly what it is.
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And we just have to sit back on this.
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For everybody s sake, we have to sit back on this.
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And the process has to be done.
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I told my team the other day, I was role playing with them, and I was being
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what I hope they would be and just going depth on questions.
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I could tell they re just staring at me like, oh my God, I would never go there.
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No.
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And I m like, and I said, one of the best things we can do from a value standpoint is ask someone a question.
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They go, dang, I don t know.
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Never thought about that.
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That s valuable.
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Forcing people to think with our discovery is valuable.
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Even if it forces them to think, I m not sure this is what we need.
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That s great.
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Like, thank you for helping me figure out that sales coaching is not my problem.
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I ve got a bigger problem.
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I ve got an operational issue or marketing problem.
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It s so valuable.
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That s what Anthony talks about early.
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He says, if you re not bringing value, they won t see you again.
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Or they might see you again kind of out of obligation because we did a good job of setting the clear future and we have an appointment.
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But they don t really want to be on it because we re not bringing value.
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So the lesson here to me is,
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A, are you a techno brute?
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Are you using technology to just pummel and bully people?
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And two, is your process valuable for them?
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Are you bringing any kind of expertise or challenge or sale?
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I know it s about challenging, and maybe that s part of the value.
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But we also have to bring value so that we re educating and making them a more sophisticated buyer.
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I don t think that s difficult to do, but most marketing departments don t think that s their role.
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The sales department thinks their only role is to go out and close business.
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So that whole idea of who s educating the customer kind of fits in the gap there.
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Nobody s doing it.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Oh, what a great.
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So this one made me think Anthony s piece and what you brought really made me think too about this is the more I m talking about it out loud and thinking of my clients and our experience in our own firm.
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This is probably worse than I ve even thought it is.
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This portion of the sales process is just really misaligned right now.
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We ask a few questions to say we did discovery to show a demo or to pitch a solution.
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We get real quick to that, how much it is, here s how much the things are, here s what it does.
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And no wonder
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You know, okay, well, thanks for the info.
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Let s talk it over here and we ll be in touch.
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Okay.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, but if you re asking the questions at a slightly deeper level than your competitor is or somebody else is, that s probably enough to win.
1
SPEAKER_00
So your people and you and I are probably asking questions just deep enough to win.
1
SPEAKER_00
But if we re not going deep, deep, deep, then are we really, are we setting ourself up for success when we finally get in there?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And didn t even give him the chance.
1
SPEAKER_00
We didn t give him the chance.
1
SPEAKER_00
We didn t give him the chance.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Good stuff.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Let s have Anthony on and talk about it out loud with him.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
I ll, I ll reach out to him.
1
SPEAKER_00
Um, I told him that we record a certain times of the month, certain times of the week, and he s going to try to make his schedule work next time.
1
SPEAKER_00
So we ll have to get him on, just talk about this and other things.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s a good, he s a good strategic thinker.
1
SPEAKER_00
So good thinker.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
If you haven t joined already, go to the LinkedIn group, the advancing podcast, LinkedIn group.
1
SPEAKER_01
There s lots of people there.
1
SPEAKER_01
We re,
1
SPEAKER_01
seeing our little contest between.
2
SPEAKER_03
his elevators and Kona elevators happen in front of our eyes.
2
SPEAKER_03
Beyond that, there s some really good stuff.
2
SPEAKER_03
And join the Insider Program.
2
SPEAKER_03
Get private, real, live coaching from Bill and 75 of his best friends.
2
SPEAKER_03
Insider happens every first Friday of every month.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s right.
2
SPEAKER_00
And if you have any, if you have any escalator slash elevator stories, send them on, man.
2
SPEAKER_00
We have a whole department.
2
SPEAKER_00
We re going to get loaded.
2
SPEAKER_00
We re going to get loaded on that one.
2
SPEAKER_01
All right.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s it.
2
SPEAKER_01
See you next time.
2
SPEAKER_01
Bye.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
Bye.