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Welcome back to the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest running sales training podcast, world, masterclass, universe, whatever.
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I m Bill Kasky.
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I m Brian Neal over here.
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We are glad to be with you today.
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If you have not checked out our LinkedIn group, go to advancedsellingpodcast.com slash LinkedIn.
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I know we talk about it each time, but we want more and more people to be on there.
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We re at 12,000 plus now, and that s really cool.
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When I tell people that, they re like shocked because most LinkedIn groups don t have that many.
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No, and, um, it s funny too, to tell, cause we re not real big timey type people.
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I just not who, you know what I mean?
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But when you listen, when you say, how many downloads do you have?
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And you re talking to someone who knows podcasting and saying, I think we re up like 13, 14 million somewhere in there.
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They re like, Whoa, I m like, well, we ve been doing it a while.
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But still that s a good number, right?
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Yeah, it is So we re very thankful and it s all their audience is the ones I mean, we ve had some people that have listened to us a long long time.
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Mm-hmm Some probably have retired from listening to these man selling podcasts at this point.
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Oh, yeah.
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I used to listen to you guys.
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Yeah, I
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Well, some have retired from their careers, but we re still here.
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They left us.
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Bye.
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See you.
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Let s see.
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Before we get started, this is, I m on the fence on this.
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The Oscars were last night in the United States, the Academy Awards for movies.
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And I don t know the movies that it s kind of taken a hit with Netflix and HBO and, you know, streaming.
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I feel like the movies have kind of gotten a hit and I ve never been a huge movie guy anyway.
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But you know, they re showing all the pictures, and I m watching the video.
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There was a crowd shot, and I looked at this woman, very, very beautiful, attractive woman, in a very beautiful dress.
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And I m going to hold this up, Bill, and I ll see if you can see this.
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Do you see that?
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What if you re sitting behind her?
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Do you see that?
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That s her dress.
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She has this dress that goes up like, it s like a three-foot diameter circle around her head.
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And I m like, if you re stuck behind this woman, if you ve been, no.
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Now, see, this brings up a new point, Bill, because you re very tall, 6 6 , I think you are, right?
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And if I get behind you at a concert, I m pissed.
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I don t want to be behind Bill.
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And I ve been with a concert with you.
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You stand up and you dance.
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You re a stand-up guy at a concert.
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Is that fair?
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Fair.
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I ll dance, yeah, questionable.
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You do, though.
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You really enjoy yourself at a concert.
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I ll be on my feet, yeah.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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And I just, it just brought up, if you re stuck behind this person, when you see this picture, you re kind of like, she s blocking the view of probably eight rows, probably eight rows behind her.
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Can t see a thing.
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And it s a great dress consideration.
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I m like, does anyone not know?
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Look at the guy kind of right next to her.
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He s kind of leaning to the side, looking around over.
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Yeah.
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He s embarrassed for her.
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We ll get a picture of that to Travis.
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He can put it up.
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But the thing about it is, you look around, nobody else is in an outfit like that.
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No, nobody.
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Exactly.
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So she won t stand out.
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I just got a kick out of that.
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I just wonder if anyone ever notices these things.
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Anyway.
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So it s like the cowboy hat at a country western.
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Yes.
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A lot of percent.
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Yes.
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A little aggressive.
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A little aggressive.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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All right.
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Topic today.
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We had a great experience here last week.
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Brian and I co-hosted, co-guest hosted CMO Huddles, which is a marketing podcast directed to chief marketing officers, obviously, and VPs of marketing.
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We had three guests on.
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Brian and I were filling in for the person who typically hosts it.
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And we haven t talked since then.
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It was a one-hour podcast.
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It was pretty long.
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And when we got done, everybody kind of went their separate ways.
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So you and I haven t talked about it.
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I thought there were some funny moments, but probably more from my mind what was going on in my mind.
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But I wondered what you thought of the experience.
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We had three really high-level marketing people on.
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And they were very, it was good.
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I mean, overall, I thought the experience was good.
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But as I was listening to it and kind of replaying it in my mind, a couple of things hit me.
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Did anything hit you about it?
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Well, first of all, it was fantastic.
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We re very thankful to the group at CMO Huddles for asking us to sit in.
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And it was a topical thing about sales and marketing, how sales and marketing get together, which I thought was really, really great.
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I was very pleased, first of all, that the group, their CMOs, and most of them are CMOs of tech companies, I felt were very, very respectful of the sales function.
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And I think sometimes salespeople get their feelings hurt a little bit.
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They think that marketing doesn t understand them.
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And the group that we had on, I felt did, had a really, really great understanding and very
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I don t know what you d call it, like a very respectful and very partnership was treating sales like their customer, which I was very pleased to hear that.
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That was my first original takeaway.
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Yeah.
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Well, here s my take.
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Yeah.
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As I was sitting there listening to some of their answers, wanting really badly to go off script, but couldn t because it wasn t our place to do that.
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Right.
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But had we had one of those people on our podcast for 30 minutes, I would have, and I m sure you would have too, asked very different questions.
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The questions were all kind of set up for us, which is perfect because we didn t have to do a lot of work there.
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It was nice, actually.
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It was really good.
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There were a lot of rules, but anyway.
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Yes.
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I was thinking, what was there that I was missing?
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Because as I listened to their answers, a lot of their answers left me wondering.
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Not cold, because I think all their answers were really good.
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And I came up with it.
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And here it is.
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And we never addressed it.
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I m ready.
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Sales and marketing speak two totally different languages.
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And neither is good or bad at all, nor bad.
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But it s a totally different vernacular.
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I mean, we can say that we re all interested in the same thing, which is acquiring a client, which I believe that s true.
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Yeah.
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But I just felt like there was a lot more to it than that.
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I can see why sales and marketing don t jibe sometimes, because they re really speaking two different languages.
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And neither, I think, is probably willing at this point in their lives to adopt the other person s language.
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And so we kind of talk past each other.
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What do you think about that analysis?
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I love that analysis.
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I m reminded of a book by John Gray from the 80s.
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on gender differences here called men are from Mars, women are from Venus, where he essentially made the same claim about married couples.
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He was a marriage therapist.
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Maybe still be.
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I don t know if John s still around.
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Yeah, he is.
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He s still here.
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But that s what he said.
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He goes, men and women, a very traditional sense.
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I know we ve got a lot of other groups represented here.
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But in John s book, he was just talking about this is a different mindset.
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And that s what I m interested now, Bill, that you said that.
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about is there something there?
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Is there a book to write?
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Is our sales is from Mars, marketing is from Venus to borrow?
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I would take that and do it.
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Yeah, right.
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You might not even get sued for that one.
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That s an inside joke.
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for very generic things that everybody says.
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As long as you give me the warning before you sue me, I m good with that.
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Oh, poor guy.
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So I love the idea.
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So now here s my question back to you, Bill.
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Again, you said this, but I want to explore it more.
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You said, it s not a good thing or a bad thing, is it?
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Is it a good thing or a bad thing?
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Well, I think it could be a bad thing if we re not willing to understand each other.
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Yeah, right.
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But I don t think either side is bad, necessarily.
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I think the problem that exists when you have two people that don t understand each other could be a problem.
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Yeah.
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See, I lean to, I try to default as much as I can, it s hard to do, to the customer s experience with any company.
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I would ask myself, how does this differing language impact the customer experience, good or bad?
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That s where I start.
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Because I think these, they re not disagreements, but these see the world different ways, are oftentimes internally driven.
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and like role responsibility.
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Well, you re supposed to give me collateral that says this and do that and use that.
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Well, I ve never been out, you ve never been out to a customer.
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Well, you know, and it s all like infighting.
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And everyone wants the sight of the customer.
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And then I ll say, what does the customer want and need in this whole thing?
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Yeah.
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I don t know.
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But you know, they, they, the three people talked, I think you asked the question, Hey, have you ever had content that you ve created?
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And then the sales team doesn t use it.
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And they all like, Oh God, that happens all the time.
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And I think, well, there s a perfect example of something was created because of something that we interpreted the sales team wanted.
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Maybe the sales team wasn t very good at expressing exactly what they wanted, or maybe the marketing team wasn t good at understanding, whatever.
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That s a perfect example of that.
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Because if the content that marketing created was spot on and it generated leads, you bet your, you know what, sales team would be using it.
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So that s just an example, I think, of the language just not being right.
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And, well, I thought you wanted this.
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Well, I really didn t want this.
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Well, you didn t tell me.
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Why didn t you tell me?
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Yeah.
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And behind not just what you wanted, but why you wanted.
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That s the part that people don t go another step on.
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They re like, hey, can we get a case study on da-da-da-da-da?
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Marketing goes, OK.
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Sure.
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I ll spin that out.
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Right?
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Now they just go to chat GPT.
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Chat GPT, please do a case study on,
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But I think there needs to be a little deeper dialogue about why someone needs something and a proof point.
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And just like these, and they re mostly software companies, software companies that have apps and things don t do custom software.
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I can t get my own version of Instagram for a reason.
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It s not scalable.
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So the salespeople have to understand they can t just go to marketing, get every little thing that they want.
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There s got to be a broader picture in mind.
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Because then you ve got a very, very non-scalable model internally, too.
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OK, so here s question number two.
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All right, I like it.
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Because just as we re talking, I m thinking, what else is there?
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When we train coach sales teams, you and I both have this concept and foundation that buying is emotional.
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It s not just all about the features and benefits, it s about the connection we have with the salesperson.
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It s about is the salesperson really showing up with the right attitude, the right
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mindset?
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Do we care?
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Do we give a damn about what the customer is facing?
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Or do we just want to get our points across?
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I mean, all those things are emotional.
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Is it 50-50 intellectual versus emotional?
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I don t know.
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Some people said it s even higher emotional, but whatever it is, it is.
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But we have trained sales teams, rightfully so, I think, to understand the emotional product that comes from a relationship with the buyer.
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And I feel like marketing is really more about intellect.
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It s really more about, do we need to give them more data?
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Do we need to give them more content?
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What kind of information?
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What kind of case study?
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And I wonder if we re plugging a leak with something that is not effective at that when
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And it s hard for me to explain, but I think that we ve been teaching salespeople that buyers buy because they re emotional about it.
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They trust you.
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They have a problem they want to get out of.
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I m not talking about these three, by the way.
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I m talking about marketing in general.
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I wonder if marketing just wants to fill the gap with stuff.
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Intellectual stuff.
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Yeah, intellectual stuff.
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Here s another data.
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It s safe, isn t it?
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Yeah, here s a solution point.
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Here s the five solution points.
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Yeah, they don t make up the data.
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They just go get it and put it in a fancy brochure or on a web page, right?
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So they re safe.
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Have you heard the phrase, I m paraphrasing, I might screw it up here.
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people buy with emotion and validate with data, so they validate their decisions with data.
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It s like, gosh, I really love Caskey, and I love Bill for my coach.
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He really connects with me.
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And then look what he s done for these four companies he s worked with for five years.
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Each of them have grown on average 20% per year.
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So I validate.
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It s a thing I can hang on to.
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Here s my little take on data and these things.
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I feel that all data is interpreted with emotion.
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It s impossible to have a data point that you don t feel something about.
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Otherwise it s useless.
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And I could say, um, bill the temperature today s March 13th.
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The temperature outside is 27 degrees.
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That s a data point.
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What s your reaction to that bill?
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It s March 13th is 27 degrees.
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Uh, that s going to be cold.
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I mean, it s cold, right?
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If you live in Barrow, Alaska, you re like, oh, that s beautiful.
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I ll put on some shorts and a t-shirt and go fishing today for some, yank some salmon out of the river.
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So.
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All data, to me, is interpreted with some opinion and some emotion.
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And that s another thing people lose sight of.
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You ve heard these cliche, like, well, data sells, and da, da, da, da.
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I m like, well, does it?
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I think it s how people feel about the data.
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It s helpful.
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Yeah, it s helpful.
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Yeah, it s helpful.
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That s useful.
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Yeah.
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But if I m relying on my marketing team to help me close the sale with data and with content and with intellectual information, I think I m kidding myself.
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Only.
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Yeah, right.
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Because I had a guy say this to me.
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He said, I may have said this to you, financial advisor guy.
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He goes, would you have been mad at me if I only gave you an 18% return on your money for the next five years?
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And I said, based on the last 10?
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely, I would have been pissed, because I got a way better return over the last 10 years than 18% or 6%, whatever the number was.
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You know what I mean?
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And so his thing kind of blew up on him.
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I had another guy, same deal.
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It s like, well, this guy, this coach that I know really well, he s like, his average client grows 18% a year.
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These are companies  growth.
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I m like, that s not super impressive to me.
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Now, that s just my opinion.
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I m just trying to demonstrate.
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People throw data out like it s
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He was throwing it out without the context and without knowing what you thought about it.
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So he was awesome.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And I m thinking, man, we ve grown, you know, in three years, our average kegger is 48%.
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Like, 18% would be going way backwards for us.
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So that s not impressive.
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That s not good.
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Now, for another company, for a company that, for Procter & Gamble, that s really good.
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They re a grocery store.
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That s a great number.
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So yeah, you re right.
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There s got to be some context and some discussion about how people feel about certain data points before we start lobbing data around.
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My last thing here was the, it seems like,
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And I d like to do a whole episode on this, and maybe the next one we do.
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The whole effort on the part of marketing and sales in an amateur organization is to prove oneself.
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It s to prove.
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And I feel like that really doesn t, I don t ever feel like that.
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Maybe I m odd man out here, too.
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I don t ever feel a need to prove something.
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I feel a need to understand and then explain properly.
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And because I think every time I try, and I ve gone through phases on this, every time I try to prove something, I feel like I need to prove something.
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prove or convince, it backfires because then people are like, oh, why is he convincing?
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Why is he trying to prove it?
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I mean, is he really what he says he is?
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And I wonder if the whole sales and marketing thing is the sales, the accomplished and professional sales team is not out to prove anything.
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They re out to understand what the lay of the land is and to explain.
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But the marketing department s out to prove that what we have is
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is awesome and perfect and brilliant and genius and all that garbage.
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Yeah, that s brilliant.
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That gets back to what you and I talk about for over and over and over, which is intent.
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And we ask ourselves the questions and the sales function, what is our intent here?
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I think the marketing group could take a lesson there to really examine intent.
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Because intent, you re right, if I write all my copy and all my content and all my white papers with the intent to prove,
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Exactly.
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I run the risk of that backfiring on me.
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Plus, I spend all this time like, well, you could do this, and I could that, and we think it s perfect for everybody.
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And it s not.
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We have to vet it out.
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Good marketing, to me, at some point, it should be discerning.
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If I have good marketing copy, the wrong person should read the copy and go, I don t want that.
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Then it worked.
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Correct.
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Correct.
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Does that make sense?
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Yeah.
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And I think we try to write it in transitional.
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Like you said, prove and get, right?
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Versus like, I m going to put this out there, and if I m really good at marketing, the right people will show up, and the wrong people won t.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s the difference.
1
SPEAKER_01
The wrong people won t show up, because salespeople then spend time with the wrong person, using that convince-persuade mentality, using the data that they got.
1
SPEAKER_01
Proof points the thing, and it s a big waste of time.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s not a good deal.
1
SPEAKER_01
Not a good deal.
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, this is good.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I like the approach that we use.
1
SPEAKER_00
I like the people.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just felt, I feel like, and again, not those three, but marketing departments in general miss these two or three things.
1
SPEAKER_00
And if you re in a marketing department listening to this or have a marketing team, send them this.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because this should be a launch pad for discussions that are different than just what s
1
SPEAKER_00
Essence of a case study and how long should it be and what kind of type should we do?
1
SPEAKER_00
And these are deeper questions to me It s how do we show up?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah for sure not only from a marketing standpoint sales standpoint in a way that causes the person to say I want these guys and it s not always
2
SPEAKER_01
about more data.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think I just wrote a new book.
2
SPEAKER_01
Marketing that doesn t work, works.
2
SPEAKER_01
Marketing that doesn t work, work.
2
SPEAKER_01
See what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like it doesn t work, like it doesn t work, meaning... It doesn t work too hard.
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SPEAKER_01
It should, it should, it just should only get the right people at the right time.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s just like fishing bait.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, I don t I m not going to throw like a two foot sardine in a lake in Indiana trying to catch a bass.
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SPEAKER_01
Won t work.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
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SPEAKER_01
That s a big sardine.
2
SPEAKER_01
All right.
2
SPEAKER_01
OK.
2
SPEAKER_00
Good job today.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let us know on LinkedIn what you think about this whole topic of sales and marketing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Have we hit it out of the park or have we struck out?
2
SPEAKER_00
Please and thank you.
2
SPEAKER_00
All right.
2
SPEAKER_00
All right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Bye bye.