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Hi, it s Elise Lunen, host of Pulling the Thread.
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Today s guest is the wonderful Liz Moody, podcast host and author of 100 Ways to Change Your Life, the science of leveling up health, happiness, relationships, and success.
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Hi, it s Elise Lunen, host of Pulling the Thread.
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On this show, we pull apart the web in which we all live to understand who we are and why we re here.
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Pulling the Thread is about big questions.
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Why we do what we do, how we can understand our own experiences within a larger spiritual and historical context,
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the ways in which we might begin to understand ourselves and each other better, and what s required to heal ourselves and our world.
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I ll be joined in conversation by luminaries and wise elders, those who have laid tracks on their work and lives to help us bring meaning and understanding to a world that often feels chaotic and overwhelming.
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My hope is that these conversations spark moments of resonance and plant tiny seeds of awareness so that we might all collectively learn and grow.
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I just think that never being the one to say no to yourself is so powerful for so many reasons.
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One, the amount of yeses that you get will shock and surprise you.
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The idea behind the philosophy is that somebody else can absolutely say no to you.
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Like you can go try to get a literary agent.
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You can get a million rejections.
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You can go try to get a job.
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You can ask for a raise.
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You can get a million rejections.
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But the amount of people, especially since I ve shared this online, who write to me and say that they got yeses.
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is so cool, like yeses they never dreamed of.
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There s so many people I know who ve gotten raises, who ve gotten their dream homes, who ve gotten their dream jobs, who ve moved across the country, who ve asked out people that they re now married to, which is so cool and it s because they went out in search of the no.
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For the past decade, Liz Moody has been building a steady foothold in the world of wellness, first for her work developing recipes.
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And in recent years, her empire has expanded rapidly as she s become a point of distillation for many of us who want to know what s what in a sea of overwhelm.
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Liz has a genius point for simplifying an onslaught of information to a few salient points, easy shifts that can lead to meaningful change.
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She does this on the Liz Moody podcast and also in her new book, 100 Ways to Change Your Life, the science of leveling up health, happiness, relationships, and success.
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She was only half joking when she offered that this is an old school bathroom book, the sort of guide you can pick up for a few minutes at a time and gain some insight or return to time and time again, like why temptation bundling is wise or it s good to talk with your hands.
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Okay, let s get to our conversation.
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I don t even know if I would put myself in the world of wellness anymore.
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Who even knows what it means?
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It s such a big term.
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I feel like the New York Times commented on your position on wellness these days.
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This is true.
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I mean, it s one of those terms that has come to mean everything and nothing.
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I m sure you kind of feel the same way.
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And it s such an interesting industry because it contains so much that s good.
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And I think it started from an essential place.
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And it still maintains that ground, but it s just such a fine line before it tips into endless problem solutions and distortions and extreme self-obsession.
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And one of the things that I really like about you is you keep sort of expanding your world and what lives in it rather than sort of diving so deep into wellness that you re inventing problems for people.
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Thank you.
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That s a big goal of mine.
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And I have a tip in the book that s about knowing why you re doing what you re doing.
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Because I think sometimes when we re caught up in the pursuit of wellness for the sake of itself, we have all of these habits that we re adding to our to-do list every day.
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And we have no idea why we re doing
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any of them.
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And so I think every single thing that you re wasting or that you are using your very precious time on this planet for, you should know the reason behind it.
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Yes.
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And I think that the promise of wellness sometimes is that in what I think is
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our ultimate goal or desire, which is to feel comfortable in our bodies, to feel fully like ourselves, to, in some ways, reattain our sense of wholeness and completeness, we end up with building these incredibly complex to-do lists, looking for every single reason why we can t achieve the former without actually
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simplifying and I feel like you are a distiller ultimately a simplifier distiller not a minimizer but and not a minimalist necessarily but that you are really good at grinding things down to their component parts.
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Yeah.
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Thank you.
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Yeah.
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I think one of my driving philosophies on my podcast and the book in my life is to feel as good as possible now and to feel as good as possible later.
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And I think a lot of times in that wellness, picking everything apart, what do I have to do?
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I m so stressed about accomplishing my meditation and my workout and my cold plunge and all of that.
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You are forgoing feeling as good as possible now for the feeling as good as possible later.
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Yeah.
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And I just don t think that s a reasonable way to live.
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First of all, we have no idea how long we are going to be granted of time on this planet.
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But also, it s not motivating.
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And I think that s why a lot of people fall off of their wellness routine so quickly, or they need to cycle in something new and look for that kind of new hit of a new habit, is because it s not motivating to feel crappy and to be beating yourself up every single day.
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No, 100%.
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And I think that it can also, exactly what you just said, can become a trap where invariably you re sort of catastrophizing yourself or, again, looking at everything as a problem to be solved rather than recognizing that so many things are just states.
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And you talk about this a lot with Susan David and other experts in the book about the fleeting, sort of the ephemeral
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reality of so many emotions, but to know what s happening, to recognize it.
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And sometimes those emotions have physiological implications.
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You write about our dear mutual friend, Ellen Vora.
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But I think that there is, it s something I m really conscious of in my own life.
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And it s something that I ve talked about at length with
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our other dear mutual friend, Tara Schuster, in terms of her work, where, you know, she s written two books about her childhood trauma, and she s very upfront about this, and she s like, I am done.
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Because I think when you are at the center of your work, as you and I both are, it can become a crutch, or it can become an instinct to sort of
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destroy your life or catastrophize your life or sabotage your life so that you have content.
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It is kind of a hook.
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That s interesting.
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I feel like the opposite.
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I feel like my work inspires me to be a better self than I would be if I wasn t doing this work.
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I feel like my work keeps me curious.
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It keeps me intellectually stimulated.
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It keeps me hopeful because I m like,
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I have this problem, and somebody s like, I have a solution, or I m like, I m struggling with thinking about this.
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And I wonder if it s because a podcast is not as centering of self, you re centering the other person so much.
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And I think that s been really helpful for me.
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But I found it to be one of the most hopeful and inspiring things that I do.
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I also want to speak to the state thing for a second because I just did a podcast, a solo podcast about getting out of a slump and I share a bunch of different advice like tools and things that you can use to get out of a slump but one of my key takeaways for it is just that like
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A slump is temporary.
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And if you did none of the tools that I m sharing in this episode, your slump would go away.
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We think that the moment that we re in is forever.
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And in my periods of really extreme anxiety, I was like, the most uncomfortable part was the idea that I was going to feel this way forever.
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It was terrifying.
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But it never is forever.
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The good moments are never forever.
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The bad moments are never forever.
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And I think that that can be scary, because we want to hold on to those good moments.
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But it can also be really comforting, both in the bad moments.
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But also, I ve experienced, and I know a lot of people experience, anxiety even in the good moments of
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It s so good.
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What if I lose it?
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What if it goes away?
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And you want to just grasp onto it so tightly.
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And I think there s something comforting in being like, it is going to go away.
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It s going to change.
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It s going to evolve.
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And that s OK.
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That s the nature of life.
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Yeah.
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No, certainly.
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And learning, I think, to maybe even out, at least that s how I felt
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In my 20s, like, and maybe the function of the 20s is to ride really big waves.
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It felt very extreme.
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Oh, I thought it was about doing drugs.
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You re a greater explorer than I am, Liz.
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I m very boring.
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I feel like you are now.
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It s actually something I m jealous of you for.
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I feel like I messed up my ability to use drugs therapeutically by going too deep into it for fun, but it ended up not being fun at the end of the day.
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So I ve like lost that tool for myself now.
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So I m jealous of people who still have it.
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So are you clean?
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Or you re just, you don t do anything?
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No, it stokes my anxiety too much.
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Like I really would love to
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experiment with particularly like psychedelics and MDMA and all this stuff that has really interesting research behind it as you know and share all the time, but it just is so anxiety-laden.
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Interesting.
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Why do you think it s so attached to trauma?
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So when I was 19, I smoked pot on the beach in Brazil, and it was pot of questionable origin.
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And it was during this period of my life when I was doing a ton of drugs of questionable origin.
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I thought I was being really responsible when I would get my MDMA and look it up on DanceSafe.
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I was like, I m a responsible drug person.
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It s got a dolphin on it.
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So it s safe but I was smoking pot on the beach and I had a seizure and I was by myself traveling in Brazil and I went to a public hospital, which is a really I witnessed things there that I I
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have never seen before in my life that were really traumatizing and at the time I did not realize I had PTSD but I started having these like disassociative episodes and I had my mom like send me multivitamins because I was like I m probably vitamin deficient and that s why I m having these episodes.
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But they were panic attacks and I didn t know what to call them.
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And I also thought I was like having a seizure again every time I was having a panic attack.
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And so for me that feeling of kind of like drifting away from your body, I very much associate with this extreme trauma that I had.
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So I kind of want to like stay in my body.
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That s good.
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When you have so many other modalities and tools at your disposal.
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I know, but they seem so powerful.
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You ve had some really powerful experiences with those things, right?
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I would say MDMA was certainly the most powerful, primarily the first time that I did it in a therapeutic setting with the therapist.
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And I had a lot of deep revelations.
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It just speeded things up for me.
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That s what I want, though.
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I like to think that I am somewhat immune from that quick fix culture that we live in.
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And I understand that things take time.
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But the idea of getting to go to a session and really experience some level of transformation or just
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having realizations that would take me months.
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It s very appealing.
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Well, maybe there s a way for you to do it without, although initially, as you know, I mean, your heart rate speeds up and it is a little bit scary.
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But then the reason also I like MDMA is that it s not a psychedelic.
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It s just a drug of embodiment and connection, essentially.
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So you are in yourself experiencing your memories in a way that I think is
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for me at least, was very clarifying and very loving because I got to be present with myself as a child, even though, you know, I don t know, maybe, I don t know if we have this in common, but I was like a big little kid.
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you know, full of over-responsibility and seeing myself as completely in control, very confident, but that has its downside too in terms of things that can happen to you where you think you re in control or you re making these things happen.
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And so for me to experience myself as a child who is essentially the same age as my own
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children who are bugging me for Robux and, you know, wanting me to cut up their fruit for them.
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Like, I could recontextualize myself as a child.
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I m Rachel Martin.
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After hosting Morning Edition for years, I know that the news can wear you down.
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So we made a new podcast called Wildcard, where a special deck of cards and a whole bunch of fascinating guests help us sort out what makes life meaningful.
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Has the experience of parenting helped you reparent yourself in any way?
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Yeah, it s interesting.
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I find it fascinating.
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I think certainly has for my husband.
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I think having boys, I think having children of the same gender is extra triggering because I think it s impossible not to project yourself onto them.
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Also, the way that we have changed societally and how we are teaching boys to become men has drastically shifted just in the last few years, decades.
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So that must be such a fascinating thing to experience.
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It is.
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And my husband has done.
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said with love, but has far less interest in himself, or is much more blocked in terms of excavating his childhood.
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And so it s a lot easier to trigger him than it is to trigger me.
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So he finds parenting boys hard.
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In particular, my oldest son, who s 10,
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is like a quivering feeling.
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And he s a fascinating kid.
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He was just diagnosed with an auditory processing disorder.
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I had never heard of this, which explains a lot about how he passes information from his left hemisphere to his right hemisphere, back to his left hemisphere.
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And he s a really interesting kid.
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But my husband, who s very sweet, sensitive guy, as Max sort of continues to move through the world as a big, quivering feeling, is always a little bit like, I want him to be armored.
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And I don t ever want to tell him not to be himself.
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And I also am very concerned as he grows up
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he will be rejected for who he is, which I think is a fear.
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Yeah, it feels like the struggle of being a parent is like, in my mind, raising boys who lean into their feelings is just one of the most powerful and amazing things you can do.
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But then anytime you re encouraging your child, even if you want them so desperately to be themselves, you want to protect them against how everybody else will receive them being themselves.
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A thousand percent.
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And
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You know, my youngest is just such a quote-unquote boy, but he s an entirely different concern.
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Very susceptible to peer pressure.
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A total bro.
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I mean, he calls me bro, bra.
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He s the one who treats me like a Robux ATM.
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And he is really just quite good at everything.
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Everything is pretty easy for Sam.
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And Max is a totally different, more complex character.
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And then sort of going back to your book and the chapter about sleep, et cetera, Max, it s been really interesting to watch issues that I have develop in him and then to jump on it for both of us.
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So we both have, he has an elf expander in his palette.
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I have an elf expander.
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We re both tongue-tied.
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I had no idea I was tongue-tied.
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Have you heard the statistic that women are just I forget the exact number they are infinitely more likely to Take care of their own needs if it s like in relation to somebody else.
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It s it s just so funny to me that you re like, oh because
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my child needs these problems solved, I guess I ll explore them for myself.
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A thousand percent.
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And I have a migraine disorder.
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Max has a migraine disorder.
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I m the sort of person who can function through a migraine and obviously have a plethora of really good migraine medicines to take.
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But
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he can t, like he immediately, almost immediately starts vomiting, et cetera, but it s like really lit a fire under me to figure out what is happening for him structurally, or, because we both have, clearly have many of the same things going on.
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I just, I love it, like I think it s so wonderful, obviously, that you probably have all of these tools that you can share with your son, and that s amazing, but it also just, it does ping me in my heart a little bit
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the amount of women out there who are probably not taking care of their own needs, even the idea of like, you have to fill your cup so that you can take care of the people around you.
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And I m like, you have to fill your cup for you too.
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You know what I mean?
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Like, it bothers me that so many women need the excuse of like, I need to take, I need to rest so that I can take care of other people.
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It s like, no, you just need to rest for you.
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Yes.
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Well, that s one of the things that I found incredibly relieving in your book, and also that I find in your company, is like you are full of, I hate the word hacks.
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Like, we need a different word.
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But you are- Do you have ideas for that?
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I feel like hacks is like, it s such a masculine word.
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It s so masculine.
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It s been so co-opted by like the bio
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hacking community.
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I mean who wants to be a hack and who wants to hack anything?
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I think isn t that so fascinating that the word has this incredible negative connotation to be a hack but then I haven t yet been able to come
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up with another word for quick but grounded in science solutions for things.
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No, I think that you re masterful at efficiency.
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And as I was reading your book, I don t think that you ve interviewed him yet.
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But for the next one, I haven t interviewed him either.
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His name s Gay Hendricks.
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And he and his wife, Katie Hendricks, do a lot with conscious loving and other sort of
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Conscious leadership, etc.
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But he s probably most famous for zone of genius And it s this idea that we have zone of incompetence zone of competence zone of greatness zone of genius and that Many of us are like piddling around in our zone of incompetence like trying to fix our own cars or washing machines or whatever it may be when we trying to book our own tickets if you re my husband and
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Then, I think we spend a significant portion of our days in our zone of competence.
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Like if we re lucky, that might be our job.
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It might be our job.
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Yeah.
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Or like you might... I spend so much time doing like dumb data entry.
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I kind of find it relaxing and meditative.
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But there are certain things, probably not the best use of my time.
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And I used to do this all the time when I had a full-time job where it was like,
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I don t know if that s the best use of your time, but it s comforting for me.
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So maybe it is the best use of my time.
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And then zone of greatness, I think, is where most of us then sort of sit.
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But very few of us are actually doing and exploring and expressing what we are uniquely equipped to do.
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And that s highly variable.
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But I think sometimes we might allow ourselves to touch it or do it briefly.
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But it s interesting to think about how comfortable competence is.
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And so when I think about what you offer in the book, even when it made me laugh when you said that rather than going to couples therapy, you guys hired early in your marriage when you were really broke, you hired someone to come and clean your house once a month.
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And it was more productive.
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We ve done couples therapy too at this point, just to be clear.
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Love both.
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Honestly, great tools all around.
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But you could say that maybe cleaning your house is your zone of competency or zone of incompetency.
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Zach would strongly say that s my zone of incompetence.
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Yeah.
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But I had Eve Brodsky on the podcast yesterday.
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She s the founder of Fair Play.
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And she was like, I was like, what if I don t care about cleaning and my husband cares about cleaning?
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And so how do we like sort out that card?
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And she s like, well, in an ideal world, the things that matter to your partner would matter to you.
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And I was like, oh, that s a good point.
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I felt a little called out.
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Well, to be fair, I don t know how Zach feels.
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My husband and I have very different standards.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, and that s why a big part of her cards is agreeing on that minimum standard of care.
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Because for me, I m just like,
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So clean to you meant there weren t crusty dishes on the coffee table.
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Yeah, and he s like, yeah No, the thing that drives me crazy about my husband is that he s an architect by training and Oh
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There you go.
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All right, so you can relate.
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He s incredibly fastidious and fussy.
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And there s, I have sort of this, that s kind of not a joke, it s sad, but like, he loses everything, but everything, all of his check, his sunglasses, everything is perfectly preserved, but he ll lose it.
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you know, long before it s scratched or dented or damaged.
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And I don t lose anything ever, but I will, you know, crack my screen every month for a year.
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However, despite his fastidiousness, my car is sort of the kid car, of course.
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It s the bigger car too.
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And he ll like clean the exterior, but not the interior, which is sort of the rule.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like if my car has to be the kid car, you have to clean the car.
2
SPEAKER_00
Which I think is fair, but I m routinely like taking their trash out of there and keeping it relatively tidy But then I ll like open like the middle bin and my husband has like trash in there And he it s like I open a drawer.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like what the hell is happening in this drawer It s your tiny little chaos area so that everything else can feel same.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh
2
SPEAKER_00
Apparently, but I m very tidy like through and through and Rob.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if Zach does the same thing exterior perfection Interior chaos clean all around all around.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, he s just good to go.
2
SPEAKER_01
Wait.
2
SPEAKER_01
I have two questions for you One is I m curious how often you get this but like you were like my car is the kids car, of course Yes, I assume because you re the mom in the relationship do people
2
SPEAKER_01
ask you how the patriarchy still shows up in your life given your work.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, people do.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it is an ongoing process to get it out.
2
SPEAKER_00
And one of the reasons that the kid car is my car is because Rob really likes small, like this was such a fight for us.
2
SPEAKER_00
He really likes very small cars.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think it s a ridiculous, he s like a tiny little, this like Audi e-tron car that like you can barely fit four people in if two of those people are little.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so I don t like the car.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s so low.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I wanted a bigger car.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you re tall, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
I m tall.
2
SPEAKER_00
So is he.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t understand.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like he likes to watch Formula One.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think he feels like he wanted this like, I don t know, Ford.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, Liz.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know anything about cars.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just know that I like to go to Costco.
2
SPEAKER_00
I actually find Costco to be a happy place for me.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I do too.
2
SPEAKER_01
The samples are just the dream.
2
SPEAKER_01
I like tasting menus, which is such a bougie thing to like, but to me, it s like a fancy buffet where you just get a teeny tiny taste of everything.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s so fun.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just, I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love Costco and they re really good to their employees.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just love it.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I like to go to Costco.
2
SPEAKER_00
I like having a little bit of clearance above my head.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so, and I wanted a back that I could push a button and it would open.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so I ended up getting the newer car and it s like the de facto kid s car.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you feel pressure to be the model of not letting the patriarchy show up in your life?
2
SPEAKER_00
No, because a part of my work is allowing our humanity and imperfection to coexist with what we perceive as our virtues.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so that s been more my work, just letting myself be myself without prejudging and condemning everything that I do.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so perfection is a fallacy, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Don t you think?
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah. 100%.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t know any person, place, or thing that is perfect, so that would suggest to me that it is a fallacy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then my second question was, what s your zone of genius?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, synthesizing disparate sources, maybe?
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
I work with this woman, Courtney, as a coach, and she s a good friend.
2
SPEAKER_00
Kardashian?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
How did you know?
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you sometimes think I look like Kris Jenner?
2
SPEAKER_00
I once had a meeting with Courtney about a book project and I was wearing a black blazer and she thought you were her mom.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was like, as we were sitting there, I think I made a joke where I was like, am I freaking you out?
2
SPEAKER_00
with my Kris Jenner vibes, my momager vibes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Wait, this is, I m supposed to be interviewing you.
2
SPEAKER_00
Nice try, Liz.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know that you think perfection is a fallacy.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s also why I like the idea of sort of like, pick a page, pick a part of this book, try one thing, if you feel called.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s something about your book and your work in general, I feel like in your podcast too, that s not so pressure loaded.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, first of all, I think that all of it should feel fun.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like I don t think listening to a podcast should feel like work.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t think it should feel like it s boring you to tears.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think it should be interesting and enjoyable because that s still like an hour of your life that you re not getting back.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that s a huge thing that I try to do on my podcast is it s like we re going to give you the science.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re going to give you the information.
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SPEAKER_01
It s going to be credible.
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SPEAKER_01
It s going to be actionable.
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SPEAKER_01
But you re going to get it in a really fun way.
2
SPEAKER_01
But then with the book, I really wanted it, first of all, to be pretty.
2
SPEAKER_01
So you d want to leave it out on your coffee table.
2
SPEAKER_01
But you re going to need different tools at different times in your life.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think that s part of the overwhelm with wellness that we were talking about earlier, is you re like, oh, I got to do all the things right now.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, no, what are your problems right now?
2
SPEAKER_01
What are your goals?
2
SPEAKER_01
And then what are the things that you can do to begin to address those?
2
SPEAKER_01
So again, you feel better in this moment of your life and hopefully feel better in the long run.
2
SPEAKER_01
For me, you can read it straight through.
2
SPEAKER_01
A lot of people have gotten a lot of value from the book that way, but I love the idea of leaving it out, flipping through, seeing what you need at that moment, and then applying it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, one of the other things that I think is fun about the book is moments of, and I do not say this as someone who understands the ins and outs of wellness and has a million virtuous habits, so just prefacing that.
2
SPEAKER_00
But there s something about reading the book that was like an affirmation of many things that I already do, and they re not the obvious ones.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, for example, what do we call this chapter?
2
SPEAKER_00
Gesture and fidget more.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t know last night if you remember that I had just come back from leading a workshop in Ojai with Ellen and Tara, and they were like, oh, we were all doing the Elise.
3
SPEAKER_01
I literally thought about Annie Murphy Paul when they were talking about that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, can you tell people about the hand gestures that I so naturally do?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that is from Annie Murphy-Paul.
3
SPEAKER_01
She s a science journalist that I absolutely love.
3
SPEAKER_01
And she did this great book about how to think outside of our brains, like how we re basically over-utilizing our brains for the thinking process and we re under-utilizing all of these other tools that help us solve problems and make connections better.
3
SPEAKER_01
And one of my all-time favorite tips that she shared was that when we gesture and fidget more, it helps us access our thoughts and our memories that much faster because essentially our brain processes that movement faster.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you can use it in two ways.
3
SPEAKER_01
You can use it either when we re having a conversation like this or when I do my podcast introductions, I used to be like,
3
SPEAKER_01
sitting there with my hands folded in my lap because I was like, nobody s watching me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Who am I performing for?
3
SPEAKER_01
But if you let yourself move freely in space, the words will come better, the thoughts will come faster, the solutions will come faster.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you re taking a test in school, letting yourself move around, I actually think it s a huge problem with traditional education is that we re forcing kids
3
SPEAKER_01
to sit there and not move and we re yelling at them for fidgeting when actually fidgeting is a natural instinct to access a huge chunk of our brain.
3
SPEAKER_01
But then also if you are like researching something or studying something that you want to remember later, you re practicing a speech, you re practicing a presentation, moving your body, doing that fidgeting, doing that gesturing as you re encoding it is going to make you more able to recall it later.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, I really that was extremely validating, because like you, I used to when I worked in magazines, I used to do all the morning TV.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it was a lot of tabletop.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I was allowed to do use my hands somewhat.
3
SPEAKER_00
But one of the things that was compulsively trained out of me was my hand talking, which is such a bummer.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I guess it s distracting on television, but it is an important part of how we communicate and how we think.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, 1,000.
3
SPEAKER_00
I felt incredibly validated, Liz, because I had not seen that.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then also this idea, you write a lot about Katie Milkman, who I feel like I want to know.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh.
3
SPEAKER_01
You need to have her on your podcast.
3
SPEAKER_01
It is wild to me how every single, to this day, I had a podcast guest on on Tuesday, and she was like, oh, ask Katie Milkman, who s a Wharton professor.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, I know who Katie Milkman is.
3
SPEAKER_01
Everybody talks about Katie Milkman.
3
SPEAKER_00
I had never heard of her, so thank you.
3
SPEAKER_00
But the temptation bundling, can you talk about that?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because that s something I intuitively do as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
Temptation bundling is the only way that I could have ever gotten myself to work out, I think.
3
SPEAKER_01
First of all, for a very long time, because I was so immersed in diet culture, I didn t even think working out was important.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because you hear that thing that your body is 80% what you eat and 20% the working out, so I was just like,
3
SPEAKER_01
I m in a calorie count, working out doesn t matter at all, which is such a bummer retrospectively, especially since I was going through really extreme anxiety at the time and right now one of my best uses for working out is as an antidote to my anxiety.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I didn t work out until I was well into my 30s.
3
SPEAKER_01
And when I started it, it was during a period of extreme insomnia and I was just like, I need to try absolutely anything.
3
SPEAKER_01
So one of my tricks is to notice the immediate reward of something.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think that s really, really important for making habits stick.
3
SPEAKER_01
So for me, instead of thinking about working out in terms of
3
SPEAKER_01
my body and like longevity and wanting my thighs to be a certain size which all of those things take a really long time to happen if they happen at all.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, oh, I sleep better tonight.
3
SPEAKER_01
My anxiety is less right now after this workout.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have more energy to take on my day like noticing those immediate rewards.
3
SPEAKER_01
But the second thing is temptation bundling means you take something that you do not like to do and you bundle it with
3
SPEAKER_01
basically your favorite thing to do, something that s going to be really, really, really motivating for you.
3
SPEAKER_01
So for me that s podcasts.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love podcasts so much that I host one.
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SPEAKER_01
I love them though.
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SPEAKER_01
I just think it s so cool that you just get to sit around and while you re in your daily life you get to hear all these really fascinating people s ideas and stories and I just – I love them so much.
3
SPEAKER_01
So when I work out, I do a 20 to 30-minute workout at home.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m also a huge fan of setting the bar low so you can actually
3
SPEAKER_01
stick to your commitments.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think that is so under-discussed, and often we set the bar high, and then we re not showing up for ourselves, and we re teaching our brain not to trust ourselves and reinforcing that message.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I set the bar low.
3
SPEAKER_01
I do it at home, but I just mute.
3
SPEAKER_01
Sorry to the people that I work out with.
3
SPEAKER_01
but I mute the instructor and I put on my podcast, and that way I look forward to it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the key to temptation bundling is to really save your favorite thing so that you can only do it during that time.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I ll listen to other podcasts throughout the rest of my life, but I will only listen to my favorite podcast when I m working out.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or I ll only watch my favorite TV shows when I m folding laundry, which is another task that I absolutely hate.
3
SPEAKER_01
Saving those things so that you actually begin to look forward to the task that you hate
3
SPEAKER_01
is so helpful in actually accomplishing that task.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know you opened the book bringing us back to the beginning of your journey where you were suffering from agoraphobia, some childhood trauma, seizures, anxiety disorder, drugs.
3
SPEAKER_00
It feels like a lot when you say it all together.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
But, you know, as for so many, you were trying to sort of
3
SPEAKER_00
solve problems in your own life, or just get out of bed, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Which is a big problem, to not be able to get out of bed.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ve certainly been that person, though, as you describe, where you re like, and the computer s sideways, so that I can watch without lifting my head off a pillow.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s rough.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do you manage your anxiety now?
3
SPEAKER_01
I still struggle with anxiety and I want to be clear about that because I don t think there is just this like magical moment where like oh my anxiety is better and I think it s an ongoing thing in my life but I think I ve learned to
3
SPEAKER_01
almost have like an old friendship type relationship with it where I m just like, oh, it s you again.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like I know you.
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SPEAKER_01
I m familiar with you.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know what you need.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know what you like.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know what you want.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know the ways you re going to try to take advantage of me.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a familiar relationship instead of this thing that comes out of nowhere and seizes me and kind of attacks my life.
3
SPEAKER_01
The things that are most helpful for me is one, talking about it.
3
SPEAKER_01
A huge
3
SPEAKER_01
struggle I had during my agoraphobic days was I was so embarrassed about being so anxious and I still remember it had been a few months where I barely left my room and I came downstairs.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was living in London at the time and we had a roommate and she was kind of like in the kitchen.
3
SPEAKER_01
We were drinking tea and she s like, oh, I haven t like seen you in a while.
3
SPEAKER_01
Her and my husband were in this graduate school program.
3
SPEAKER_01
So they re really busy just like out of the house all the time.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I kind of paused and I was like, I ve been having this really extreme anxiety.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then I told her my seizure story, which I never told anybody.
3
SPEAKER_01
It almost could like trigger a panic attack just to talk about the seizure story.
3
SPEAKER_01
And she was like, oh, something really similar happened to my boyfriend.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, what?
3
SPEAKER_01
I didn t think anybody else in the world had ever had like a one-off seizure like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like I literally did not think that existed which is why it just caused such panic to talk about.
3
SPEAKER_01
I also didn t think anybody else in the world experienced anxiety the way that I did.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was searching for those
3
SPEAKER_01
Stories of connection like one of the things I would do when I was laying there sideways was YouTube celebrities with anxiety So like I ve seen Amanda Seyfried she had like a panic attack on Letterman I think and I like watch that video a lot There s a British youtuber named Zoella who talked about her panic attacks and I watched those videos I could tell you every celebrity who s ever struggled with anxiety ever because I m looking for that connection but for some reason I
3
SPEAKER_01
I was like, I m the only one in my actual life.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is embarrassing for me.
3
SPEAKER_01
So beginning to talk about it and having so many people say, I struggle with that too, or that s not my struggle, but this is my struggle.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I feel like everybody has their something.
3
SPEAKER_01
Every single person just has something they re struggling with, something they feel shame about, something they re embarrassed to let out, something that s really vulnerable for them.
3
SPEAKER_01
And realizing I wasn t alone in that shame and that that shame was really unwarranted,
3
SPEAKER_01
was so helpful for me.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that was really helpful talking about it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Structure has been huge for me, putting some structure in my day.
3
SPEAKER_01
I talk about that in the mental health checklist section of the book, which is based around the idea that often we focus on these like high-level nitpicky things.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re like, oh, what?
3
SPEAKER_01
supplement should I take?
3
SPEAKER_01
Should I combine these two foods?
3
SPEAKER_01
And we re completely neglecting these base level structural things.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re kind of like, what molding should I put around my
3
SPEAKER_01
Wayne Scott.
3
SPEAKER_00
I d like to help you, but I actually don t.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know the word.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just don t even know what it is.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like what should I decorate my house with?
3
SPEAKER_01
But you re like your foundation is non-existent.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like build the foundation first and then we can decorate.
3
SPEAKER_01
And one of the foundational things that Julia Smith, who s a psychologist that I really like quite on the podcast,
4
SPEAKER_01
shared is having structure and routine.
4
SPEAKER_01
Our bodies crave structure and routine.
4
SPEAKER_01
And in moving to England, leaving behind my support system, I stopped working full time.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was doing complete freelance work.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I just had no structure in my day.
4
SPEAKER_01
And getting that structure back has been really helpful.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was actually really nervous when I left my full time job to work for myself that my anxiety would come back.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I put a lot of bumpers in place to make sure I would keep that structure in my day.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think we sort of shame routine or shame a lack of novelty as boring.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, we so adulate people who are constantly trying new things and exploring and test driving every trend.
4
SPEAKER_00
Honestly, I feel like that s for teens and 20-year-olds.
4
SPEAKER_00
And as I ve gotten older, I just love, again, the routinization of my life, I think, gives me a lot more bandwidth.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to try a new coffee shop.
4
SPEAKER_00
No, thank you.
4
SPEAKER_00
When we go out for dinner, my husband, I mean, we re the same, but we like going to Hillstones, which is essentially Houston s, and getting artichoke spinach chips.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I want to push back on the idea that new stuff is for 20-year-olds, because I talk about this in the book in the busting aging myths part.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I had on Dr. Becca Levy.
4
SPEAKER_01
She s a Yale professor who specializes in the study of aging.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you can add literally 7.5 years to your life if you have positive aging beliefs.
4
SPEAKER_01
And once you notice negative aging beliefs, I was yelling at Ellen about this yesterday.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve become such a nitpicky person about the aging beliefs because they re so pervasive.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re so everywhere.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the second the glass shatters for you and you start to look around, you re like, oh, over there s a greeting card that says I m over the hill because I m 30.
4
SPEAKER_01
Over there is my friend saying, we don t go to the club anymore.
4
SPEAKER_01
We re 40.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s everywhere the messages of what we can and cannot do at any age.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I would push back on that.
4
SPEAKER_01
I would say, you can try new stuff at any age.
4
SPEAKER_01
You can enjoy it.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s going to be 20 year olds who are listening to this podcast who are like, I don t like trying new things.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
4
SPEAKER_01
But then I think secondly, sorry, personality, not age.
4
SPEAKER_01
I just think that I m going to catch any time anybody around me or I say to myself anything that
4
SPEAKER_01
is a negative aging belief because I think it s a lot more destructive than we think it is and treating it like a joke when it s costing us seven and a half years of our life is insane, you know?
4
SPEAKER_01
And I don t like the idea that my brain is hearing me say things I can or cannot do based on my age.
4
SPEAKER_01
My brain can say things that I can or cannot do because I like them or don t like them or
4
SPEAKER_01
because I m physically able to or not, but I don t want my brain limiting me because of a number that it thinks that I am.
4
SPEAKER_00
No, I think that s fair.
4
SPEAKER_00
I would say of myself working in magazines and needing to pay attention to things that were quote unquote on trend, like I don t even know if I wanted to try new restaurants.
4
SPEAKER_00
It is probably more of a personality thing, but feeling pressure, social pressure.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it s not just like that s for people in their 20s.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like you feel this
4
SPEAKER_01
confidence and freedom in yourself to adhere to the person that you maybe always were, which is super cool.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, 100%.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then second, I do think that structure and routine, having some certainty for me, gives me the safety to take the risks that I really want to take in life.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I think that for me, having that baseline of structure means that instead of
4
SPEAKER_01
having every decision be like, oh, should I do this?
4
SPEAKER_01
Should I do this?
4
SPEAKER_01
Should I do this?
4
SPEAKER_01
I can save that mental energy for the risks that I really want to take and the decisions that I really want to make.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
No, I agree with that.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I think that, interestingly, when I think about sort of my reading material, how widely I read, and I can go quite deep into certain writers or
4
SPEAKER_00
paradigms or concepts, but I am all over the map, and I think I would honestly break my brain if I insisted on living my life in the real world in such a wild and magpie-like way.
4
SPEAKER_01
Everybody has their, like, place of play, and I think that having that structure and routine lets you free up that energy for wherever your place of play is.
4
SPEAKER_01
I would agree with that.
4
SPEAKER_00
I love that this feels like an essential number 36.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m going to just go through and give you the numbers.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m kidding.
4
SPEAKER_00
I love the look on your face.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right, right, right, right.
4
SPEAKER_00
Number 36.
4
SPEAKER_01
Loved that one.
4
SPEAKER_01
Can you tell me what that meant to you?
4
SPEAKER_00
Never be the one to say no to yourself.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s a Liz-ism.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s a great one.
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Yeah, that s one of my all-time life mottos and I wish I knew like the first time I thought it but I think I was like five, honestly.
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Like I think it s just been something that I ve lived by forever and it has completely changed my life.
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I started writing a newspaper column which was my first professional writing job when I was a teenager and it s because I basically went to the newsroom and I was like,
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you guys should have a column for teenagers that s written by a teenager. 
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And they re kind of like, okay.
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My very, very, very first writing thing I ever did was Hootie and the Blowfish was coming to Modesto.
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Do you know them?
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A thousand percent.
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And they were performing at the State Theater and I called up the State Theater and I was like, I m from the Modesto B, I want to interview Hootie.
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And they were like, okay, come by before the show.
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And then I called the Modesto B and I was like, I have an interview with Hootie.
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Do you want to run it? 
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And they were like, okay.
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That s amazing.
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And then I went backstage and I met Darius Rucker, who is so cool and so nice.
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And I did my little Hootie and Blowfish interview.
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And I just think that never being the one to say no to yourself is so powerful for so many reasons.
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One, the amount of yeses that you get will shock and surprise you.
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The idea behind the philosophy is that somebody else can absolutely say no to you.
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Like you can go try to get a literary agent.
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You can get a million rejections.
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You can go try to get a job.
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You can ask for a raise.
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You can get a million rejections.
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But the amount of people, especially since I ve shared this online, who write to me and say that they got yeses
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is so cool.
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Like, yes, as they never dreamed of.
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There s so many people I know who ve gotten raises, who ve gotten their dream homes, who ve gotten their dream jobs, who ve moved across the country, who ve asked out people that they re now married to, which is so cool.
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And it s because they went out in search of the know.
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But then the second thing that I think is really cool outside of that
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like very quantifiable, pragmatic benefit is that we live in a world where people from all over are going to be shooting us down, telling us we re not good enough.
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There are messages that we internalize all day long, every single day.
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And by never being the one to say no to yourself, you are ensuring that you are not part of that cacophony.
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And I just think that is so powerful.
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Somebody else in the world can say no to you, but you are always saying yes to yourself.
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So, showing yourself in that way that you believe in yourself, I think, is one of the most powerful things that we can do.
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No.
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And you ve taught me a lot about that.
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I have written about this in my sub-sack.
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I don t know that I ve talked about it with anyone on the podcast, but we were talking about it last night that how every relationship, to some extent, is transactional, even with your loved ones.
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The energy that you re exchanging is love and care.
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consideration and it moves out from there, right?
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And some things are entirely transactional and that s fine too.
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And in the piece that I had written, it was in part inspired by you and as I was bringing my book into the world,
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sort of the coaching from you of like you need to be overt and you need to ask for support, like no more wishing, like you need to actually go out and say, hey, can you do this for me?
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In exchange, I can do this for you.
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Let s talk.
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Let s support each other.
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Men are really good at this.
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And
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It s been important.
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One, it s, as you were just saying, many people will say no to you or not respond at all.
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And that has its own heartbreak.
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But I think what I have been doing throughout my long career in media, 20 years, is accruing or developing relationships that I thought were
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in some sense, transactional or favor-based, or like I would try to do things for people, and that somehow that would mean, of course, that they would do things for me in turn.
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There was an implied transactional element, but I had never made it overt.
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It was always this covert wanting, wishing, hoping, and it was a really good, like you were very helpful in saying and modeling it.
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It sort of baked into your personality, I would say.
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But really helpful of just say it.
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Worst case, someone says no or they ignore you.
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But to not actually overtly make your wants and needs known is quite a disservice.
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So two things to that.
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One, I think when people shape at the idea of a relationship, even a personal relationship being tracked, all you have to do is imagine what it would be like if that
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relationship, that transaction became incredibly lopsided.
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Like if all you were doing was giving to your partner and they weren t giving you anything back, how shitty that would feel.
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And I think then you re like, oh, it needs to be a back and forth.
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Like it is transactional and that is just abundantly clear if you imagine
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what happens when that transaction gets really one-sided.
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But then two, I think yeah, it s fundamentally a communication issue.
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I say this all the time in romantic relationships that we like expect our partners to know – to not only like do such a good job of like showing us the love like
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planning the date and getting us the flowers and showering us with everything that we want, but also we want them to have come up with the idea.
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We want them to have read our minds and that s part of what makes it romantic and my entire life changed when I was like, Zach, our anniversary is coming up.
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It s our dating anniversary which is the one that you plan.
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I would love if you planned like a fun adventure day for us that we could enjoy together. 
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And then he s like, cool, fun adventure day, check.
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And he plans these like incredible things because he has the information from me about what I want and expect.
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And then I m not just like sitting around being like, well, you didn t buy me flowers for Valentine s Day.
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It s like, well, how did I know you wanted flowers?
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I think people
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by and large, want to give us what we want.
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They want to care for us, but we need to give them the information to do so.
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And expecting people to look out for us, to love us, to care for us, and to be mind readers is insane.
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Yes, 100%.
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I think that holds in professional relationships as well.
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It s been a game changer for me in personal relationships, making my expectations known and giving people the space to show up for me.
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But in professional relationships as well, making your goals clear so that people aren t disappointing you without even knowing they re disappointing you, I think, is so important.
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Yes, 100%.
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And there s something too for me where I was like, oh, all this covert wanting or expectation or,
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Someday this person will return this favor or recognize the relationship.
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In some ways it s like I just had to light all those covert contracts on fire and let it all go.
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You can t hold people accountable to something that they didn t actually agree to.
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No, oh my God, but say that again.
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I just think that that sentence is so powerful.
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You cannot hold something accountable to something that they actually didn t agree to.
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If people could internalize that, that would change parental relationships, that would change friendships, that would change romantic relationships, that would change workplace relationships.
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It s just such a powerful thing and it is hard to internalize because we think everybody s
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living in the world that we ve created in our head.
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And that is not, in fact, true.
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Well, thanks for clarifying the world out there and marshalling us forward.
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No, seriously.
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I am in a, what would Liz do?
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I want all the things that you do to make your life easier in my inbox, please and thank you.
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But also, I will say, even recognizing that and having the communication and having the clarity doesn t
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take the magic out of relationships.
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I enjoy you as a friend, as a person, and when I want something, I ask for it, and I make that clear, and I actually think that our friendship has benefited from the clarity of what we are also able to give each other and what we would like from each other.
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So I don t want to make it sound like it s going to be cold and hard, and you re not going to be able to develop and form real relationships.
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I actually think having that clarity
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frees you up because sometimes if you re just wanting in the background and then you re like, well, am I being nice to this person because I want something from them later?
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Or am I just enjoying their company or what s the vibe?
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And by being really clear about what you re trying to get, then it frees you up to actually, I think, have a much realer and deeper and more fulfilling relationship.
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I completely agree.
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Again, making what s covert over is good for everyone.
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One of the things I like about this book, too, is that it ends up being sort of a cheat sheet to your podcast because everything you do in some ways is not circular or self-referential because you re referring people to other people s work, but it is all tight.
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I m building a universe.
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You re building a universe and making it quite simple, which I, again, really appreciate as someone who makes things quite complex.
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I go for complexity.
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You go for simplicity.
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I have a lot to learn from you.
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But where should people start with you?
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I think listeners of this podcast should start with your episode of the Liz Moody Podcast, which is definitely one of people s favorite episodes.
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We talk about a lot of the subjects in your book.
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We talk about the patriarchy.
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We talk about practical ways that we can start to overcome things like
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envy and are negative feelings towards a lot of the things that you talk about in your book and it s one of my all-time favorite conversations I ve had on the podcast and my audience as well.
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So I would definitely direct people to that conversation because they re obviously all in love with you already so you can get more at least there but you can find the Liz Moody podcast wherever you listen to podcasts just by searching Liz Moody and then I m Liz Moody on
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TikTok, on Instagram.
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I share lots of little snippets of advice and thoughts and tips from experts and just fun little bursts of inspiration and motivation and education throughout your day.
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And then my book is 100 Ways to Change Your Life.
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And we ve talked about it a lot, and I really appreciate how closely you have read it.
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But it s a beautiful book.
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It s a book that you re going to want on your coffee table.
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It also feels like a book, and I don t know if people do this anymore in the age of phones, but it feels like a book I d keep in my bathroom.
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It s a bathroom book.
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It is 100% a bathroom book.
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And I mean that respectfully of my book.
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But it s just because you can pick it up, and you can read a tip at a time, and it ll take you about five minutes, and you will learn science and have an actionable takeaway.
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So I feel like those little interstitial moments of time, especially I m trying to stay off my phone.
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So for me, I love books like this because while the water is boiling,
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When I have those little quick bursts of time, I can pick up a book and have a full experience rather than trying to like get into it.
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It s very satisfying.
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Bring back the bathroom book.
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That seems perfect for you.
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There s also, you know, you can learn about bloating and constipation and about... There s tips to have a better poop in the book.
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This book has everything, friends.
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This book is like, whether you re trying to fix your finances, your gut health, or your relationships, we got you covered.
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Thanks, Liz.
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Thank you.
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Liz Moody makes me laugh and she also, as mentioned, I like watching her, following her in the world of wellness, which again, I think is such a big concept.
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I don t think that any of us really understand what it means anymore, but she s a great distiller and simplifier in a world that can feel quite overwhelming and always returns to very simple, often free,
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exercises and it is like a bathroom book.
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I still love bathroom books as just a category in general because each of the 100 things that she outlines takes a few minutes to read.
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It s just a few pages of why, for example, you should bundle treats with the things that you re trying to accomplish in your life.
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or ways to add fermented foods to your gut.
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It s very practical, and it spans a range.
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It s not spiritual.
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It is completely grounded in the physical.
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But it s a more feminine take on the world of wellness.
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And a lot of it will be affirming, and most likely things that you might already be doing.
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But I promise you ll learn something.
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I learned something.
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I thought I knew everything in that space.
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Just kidding.
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And I ll link our podcast conversation as well.
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As she was saying, it was a really fun one.
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And it was one of my favorite ones to do on my book tour.
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And she really gets it done on her podcast.
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If you liked today s episode, please rate and review and tell a friend.
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You can find show notes and full transcripts of the episodes at EliseLoonan.com.
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While there, please sign up for my sub stack.
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I send a short note every Wednesday about topics that are aligned with this show and a deeper dive most Sundays.
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Or follow me on Instagram at EliseLoonan.
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And finally, if you haven t already, please consider picking up a copy of my New York Times bestselling book, On Our Best Behavior, The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to be Good, available wherever you get your books.
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It s an exploration of how women have been conditioned for goodness, men for power, and all the ways we ve been programmed to police ourselves and each other according to these cultural ideas of what it is to be a good woman.
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I d also like to give a huge thank you to my sponsors who make this show possible.
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Please support them the way they support this podcast.
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This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studio.
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If you enjoyed this episode, please listen, rate, review, and follow
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Pulling the Thread, available now for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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I want to give a shout out to Phil Svitek, Lauren LaGrasso, Mary-Kate McDonough, Ali Brockman, and the entire Kedans13 team for producing these episodes, and to Valero Duval for my key art.
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Take care of yourselves.
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I ll see you next week.