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This is The Art of Charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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Jordan Harbinger here from The Art of Charm.
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Today we re talking with Dacher Keltner, professor at Berkeley and one of the world s foremost scientists who specialized in the study of power and author of The Power Paradox.
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Today we ll discuss why the imbalance of power is one of the greatest threats to society aside from climate change.
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how we can increase our power relative to others in a healthy way, something called the power paradox and how this affects us and affects our society at large, and powerlessness and how this can literally be lethal.
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A lot of great concepts here and very much in line with the AOC core concepts.
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So enjoy this one with Dakar Keltner.
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And with that, welcome to the Art of Charm.
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We bring together the best thought leaders
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teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
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If you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the toolbox where we discuss things like body language, nonverbal communication, persuasion, networking, negotiation, and everything else we teach here at AOC, at our live programs here in LA.
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In the US, just text charmed.
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to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444, or go to theartofcharm.com.
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We may not have all the answers, but we definitely have all the right questions.
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All right, let s talk to Dacher Keltner.
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Thanks for coming in today.
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I appreciate it.
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It s great to be with you, Jordan.
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You re the author of The Power Paradox.
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I ve read that.
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It was fantastic.
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It was kind of something a little unexpected in that it s not, I don t want to say an academic look at power, but it s certainly, you ve taken more of a careful look at power than most people who even write about power.
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It s not just, look people in the eye when you shake hands and you ll get the power.
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And it s not these little techniques and tricks, but it s a real study.
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Well, first of all, tell us what you do in one sentence.
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Sure.
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And we ll dive into the rest.
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Yeah, I m a professor of psychology at UC Berkeley and run a big lab that studies power and the evolution of human goodness.
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In the book, The Power Paradox, what is the power paradox?
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The power paradox is what I think is one of the most important laws of human behavior.
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And it s this really interesting irony, which is that people get power by advancing the interests of other people, be it in a school or at work.
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And then the paradox begins, which is once you feel powerful, you lose all the skills that advance the interests of others and got you power in the first place.
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But people don t necessarily advance the interests of others to gain power on purpose most of the time, right?
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It s not purely altruistic, but also it s not like, hmm, if I help enough people, I can eventually screw all those people over.
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Well, there s a little bit of that going on and there s this funny literature called competitive altruism where that may be at play, but no, you know, what scientists have discovered who have studied how we get power in different kinds of social groups is really aligning with what you re saying, Jordan, which is that we have a lot of different kinds of social behaviors that advance other people s welfare and their interests, right?
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We give them resources, we share, we cooperate, we collaborate, and as a result,
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of those tendencies, groups will elevate your social status, right?
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Because you re good for the group.
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So it s a consequence of these pro-social tendencies.
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So power is given to you.
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It s not taken because you re so altruistic that you decide to grab it with an iron fist.
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It s not Machiavelli.
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Yeah, there are so many myths of power out in our culture.
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And one of them, in fact, I think one of the most pernicious is the one you just outlined, which is the idea that you just go grab power.
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And yeah, that happens in Mexican drug cartels and in little areas of hotspots in Africa and the like.
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But most of the time,
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You don t go grab power if you join a workforce or you enter into a community.
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It s given to you by the collectives that you join.
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So is it the same thing as influence?
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Because I m thinking of power, for example, online or influence online.
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kind of translates to power, maybe it s not the same thing.
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Yeah, thanks for pointing that out.
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In fact, I think that s one of the most important statements that I try to make in the power paradox, which is that, you know, when you ask the average American or average industrialized individual, what s power, right, they re gonna tell you power s money, power is military might, power is how big you are, power is force, but in point of fact, when you look at history,
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And you think about all the ways in which we influence the world, be it through a blog or a podcast or a scientific discovery or a great book or a rock and roll song, power is your influence on others.
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And often, it s independent of money, it s independent of military might, it s really what we re doing day to day in influencing others.
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So how does Machiavelli fit in?
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He s kind of the OG power scientist, right?
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He probably wouldn t have been at Berkeley, but.
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Yeah, he would have had a short career at Berkeley.
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Or, you know, we ve had our Machiavellians.
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Well, you know, Machiavelli figures profoundly in our thinking about power.
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In fact, most analyses, if you look at how influential books are, and books are profoundly influential, the Bible, the Analects of Confucius, Machiavelli s in the top 20, right?
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His book, The Prince.
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And people know what Machiavellianism is.
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Even if they haven t read the book, they know what it is, most likely.
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Yeah, and you know, so power is, in Machiavelli s view,
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force, manipulation, deception, strategic ruthlessness.
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And a lot of people think that that s what power is, but the new social science really kind of disconfirms that idea and it makes us remember Machiavelli wrote in a period in human history,
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which was probably as violent as any time in human history when politics were really brothers killing brothers.
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And very little rule of law.
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Torture was commonplace.
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So it was a philosophy of power that fit that time and certain subcultures today.
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But you know, when you look outside, it doesn t work as well as we think.
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Right, we don t stand for it as a society or as a civilization in general, Western civilization anyways.
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Do you think that s changed?
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Do you think power is constantly evolving and what it actually means given maybe the context, the society, the type of civilization?
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It just changes?
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Yeah, what a terrific observation.
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And the human mind and as social scientists, we like things to be stable and fixed, but there s no more dynamic property of human relations than power, right?
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And we ebb and flow.
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There are studies showing from the past 40 to 50 years that power has really shown this dramatic shift from being hierarchical
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and more top-down to what s right outside here in New Silicon Valley, which is, it s more horizontal and it s bidirectional and it s distributed.
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Power is shifting all the time.
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We re worried today in world politics about a little soft rise of fascism, right?
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Wow, you know, look what happened in France and Austria and maybe Donald Trump is this reappearance of one kind of power we thought we were done with.
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So power s always shifting, as you say, Gordon.
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we get power now in this current incarnation of society or civilization for now, depending on when you re watching this, right?
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We get power by improving the lives of others in our network.
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And how did you discover this, first of all?
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Because when you write it, it s like, well, yeah, okay, that makes sense.
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But you weren t probably just sitting around one day and decided, I m writing about this.
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You had to test that somehow.
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We did.
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So, you know, I m a scientist and I always test hypotheses with empirical data.
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And so, you know, that s why I feel confident saying that in most contexts that your listeners live in, Machiavellianism, force, manipulation, it may get you attention, but it doesn t get you lasting influence.
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How we tested it is as follows.
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I ll give you a couple of examples from our lab.
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And this illustrates a broader literature.
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We would track groups.
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as they formed and found and would try to ascertain who kind of gets power, how fast does it happen, who has influence, who keeps power over time.
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We studied fraternities on college campuses, we studied dormitories, sororities, kids in summer camps, we ve studied the U.S.
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Senate, which I ll tell you about.
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And what you find is within a week of a group forming, we have a pretty shared sense of who we trust and who has power and who s on the margins of power.
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Really, in that short of a period of time?
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Yeah, and in fact, there are other studies from business school labs like Cameron Anderson showing, you know, within an hour or two of a group, leaders are starting to emerge.
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I believe that for sure.
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Even within conversations of multiple people, you start to say, okay, this is like the dominant guy.
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Yeah.
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And then this is the other guy who wants to be dominant, which is really just kind of irritating or annoying.
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That s right.
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And we have like these radars for those kinds of people.
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And so when we study these individuals and we sort of then find out like, who are these people who have that art of the charm, if you will, who get power, and they tend to be dynamic.
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They have a lot of juice.
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They connect to other people.
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But really interestingly and most importantly, they re very engaged in the interests of other people.
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They re going around patting people on the back.
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They know where they re coming from.
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They encourage others.
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They throw out great ideas.
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So they re just engaged in others.
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And you hear about that as a kind of a quality of the CEO that everyone loved.
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He was always asking about people and he remembered things about people and he was involved in
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other people s lives in surprising ways that were somehow scalable, right?
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Like on your birthday, it s probably his secretary, but he calls you and says, hey, I just wanted to wish you a happy birthday.
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Thanks for working here for 20 years.
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Those types of things, and then also looking out for people on your team, making sure that they re not taken advantage of.
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getting worn down.
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You hear about that in the military, you hear about that in Silicon Valley companies that are successful.
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And when people don t do that, when they rule by an iron fist, you see their ranking in, I can t remember who tracks this, but like worst companies to work for.
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Oh, is that right?
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It s always, you know, oh, the CEO made his employees buy their own hotels on this business trip.
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Number two, right?
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And then other places that you expect to be there, like Radio Shack all the way at the bottom, right?
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Yeah.
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But you hear about that, and so if this is constructed by society, constructed by civilization, how do the changes evolve?
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Because it seems like they re kind of innately human, but maybe all of the software is built in, or all the hardware is built into us, but the software activates depending on our surroundings, or something like, like a Tesla.
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Autopilot s built in, but unless you pay for it, you can t use it, right?
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For example, humans, have we changed very much physiologically since Machiavelli?
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Probably not.
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No, you know, what really strikes me is when I was writing The Power Paradox, I was like, you know, we made these discoveries and like you nicely alluded to, Jordan, the same kind of ideas like engaging, advance the interests of others, also works in the military, highly structured context.
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And it s those individuals who really engage with others who rise in the military ranks.
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It works in school playgrounds, works in finance firms.
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So it is this general principle.
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I think that the way that it evolves and changes is really depending on the particulars of the social context, right?
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That, you know, I do a lot of consulting down at Facebook.
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and their engaging in the interests of others has to do with writing good code and building complex teams that do good work, but you re still at the core, at a general level, advancing the interests of others as a way to get power.
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Facebook is probably a really good example of that, and you probably can t talk about your work there, but I would imagine it has to do with, okay, we want to make this as useful as possible to humanity, because the more useful it is, the more people use it, dot, dot, dot, profit.
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That should not come as a surprise to anybody on Facebook, that their mission is to suck us in by giving us valuable things to use, do, and see.
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But in societal groups, what tools do we have that maintain or regulate power?
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In the book, you mentioned reputation and gossip and things like that.
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Yeah, so you know, it s so striking.
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And very often when we think about problematic forms of power, we kind of demonize the leaders, we we think about madmen, you know, ruining the world.
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And that in part is true.
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You know, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, were no doubt crazy individuals.
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But we also have to think carefully about social systems in the social context.
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And you will have really strong forms of power that are good for
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broad collectives if you have ways, forms of accountability, right?
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So the economic collapse 2008 that Michael Lewis sort of charted, critical to that was all systems of accountability were out the window, right?
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And then they sold whatever they sold.
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You have to have systems of scrutiny.
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And this is why journalism is so important.
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And it s so fascinating.
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You know, we think about the bias of journalism and the like, but U.S.
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journalism is pretty robust.
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It does provide critiques of power.
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And that form of scrutiny, social psychological studies find, if I know I m being scrutinized, right, by shareholders or journalism, I won t abuse my powers, really.
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Just as important, it s so fascinating, is art and satire.
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Just forms of public representation that call into question the status quo.
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that rock and roll, protest music, Jon Stewart.
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Jon Stewart is one of the most important political analysts.
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People are begging for him to come back today.
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Even though he s tongue-in-cheek and he s carrying on the great tradition of satire, it dates back to Jonathan Swift and before.
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because it s a way of making people very aware of the abuses of power.
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So when you have those systems in place, concerns over your reputation, forms of accountability, satire and scrutiny, we ll have good forms of power, but when those start to be regulated or taken away, then all hell can break loose.
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And we see this with totalitarian societies and regimes and things like that.
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I ve been to countries like North Korea a few times.
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Really?
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Yeah.
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It may interest you slash terrify you or probably both.
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But what you see there is
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information strictly limited.
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What people are allowed to say is strictly limited.
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Even comedy, speaking of, it s never about politics.
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It s governed by, there s a body that says, this is funny, and this is stuff you can use, and things like that, and people are instructed to constantly be on the lookout for things that are not in accordance with what they want broadcasted, and so, this isn t, oh, it evolved in this weird way, and this was Stalin s idea.
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no freedom of the press those guys can only cause us trouble we want one narrative yeah and what happened was that one area was supposed to advance the brotherly communist whatever but i said it went crap if there s only one voice and we control it why are we obeying any rules and then that
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went to heck for the next 50 plus years.
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That s fascinating.
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And derailed everything.
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And now we have North Korea slash what happened at the Soviet Union.
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People are probably saying, what the heck does this have to do with social science?
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How can I use this?
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But if we look at things like our own reputation and as gossip, as instruments used to regulate or to give us or take away power, you start to be more careful with, one, who you gossip about, and two, your own reputation quite a bit.
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I love your riff, by the way, on sort of totalitarian regimes, and I ll get to Gospin in a second.
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You know, it was striking.
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I read a bunch of histories of dictators in thinking about this book and the abuses of power in particular.
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And Jordan, you so nicely illustrated it, but I was astonished, like Hitler was obsessed with art.
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And he was a sort of an artist, but he had to control all the art in the shows, just like Stalin, because he didn t want
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the critiques of his political status quo.
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But most important in our day-to-day lives, in terms of how social systems give power to the right people who advance the interests of the group,
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is, as you said, through sort of distributing information about a person s reputation, and in particular, through gossip.
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And I got into a little bit of trouble with this research.
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We started to do these studies.
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We studied, for example, a sorority and sort of privately searched.
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You always want to go to the experts.
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You know, so we study and we re like, who do they gossip about?
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And it really kind of surprised us, which is that, you know, we interviewed them privately.
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Hey, who do you kind of tell funny stories about?
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Kind of gave it a friendly spin on it.
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And it wasn t what you might stereotypically think.
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They weren t gossiping about women who drank too much or had
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open sexual lives, they were really gossiping about women who are Machiavellian and who are gonna take down other people in the group.
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I thought it would be moral, sex and drugs, but it was really about ethics, like is this person kind to others, do they speak?
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in a civil way?
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Are they nasty and backstab?
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Fake.
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All the gossip, yeah.
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All the gossip just zeroed in on those couple of individuals, right?
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Wow.
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It constrained their power and influence.
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It tagged them in saying, like, watch out for this person.
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Watch out for this person, yeah.
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And then we started to do these studies and that showed, like, if you take a social group and you allow them to give money to a public good, which is a standard thing that we do when we re part of a community, like contribute to the public good, people start to cheat on that.
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But if you allow the group members to gossip about each other,
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They are very good citizens and give a lot.
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So reputation really helps us avoid the abuses of power.
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So gossip and reputation are kind of the plus minus of keeping our behavior in line with the interest of the group.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And it can go too far.
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you know, seventh grade girls gossip too much, and you know, we have to be worried about that, but in general, it s a very good counterbalance to the abuses of power.
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Right, so this isn t just a vice, because a lot of people, myself included, would think gossip and talking about other people, purely a vice, never anything good coming from it, stop doing it, bad habit, get over it, but actually, it s something that we ve probably evolved over however many thousands and thousands of years.
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It s as universal part to our human behavior as eating food and having sex.
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We all gossip.
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People who are worried about it can take heart in the fact Thomas Jefferson was a collected acts of political gossip and tracked it during his day because he knew it had important social information in it.
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So on the flip side of power, we ve got powerlessness.
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Tell me about powerlessness.
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Help us understand why this is a bad thing because for people who have power, powerlessness is not something you think about ever.
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Yeah, you know, it begins when I was writing The Power Paradox.
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You know, when you write a book, you search for like, why am I writing this book?
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It begins when I was a kid, and my mom and dad moved.
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My mom got her PhD at UCLA.
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We were in Laurel Canyon, which is kind of trendy and cool place, and then we moved to the foothills of the Sierras.
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And I was 10 years old, and we moved to the poorest town in the poorest county at the time in California.
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It s something no parent in their right mind would do.
2
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Because it was like 1970 and it was the rural experiment.
2
SPEAKER_01
We had an old Victorian and five acres of, you couldn t grow anything on that.
2
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And it was so interesting.
2
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I was a 10 year old kid and it was great, my brother and I.
2
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ran around like Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer, and we had a pond, we fished, and we live on this rural road.
2
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When I was writing The Power Paradox, I was thinking about that neighborhood, and these people, the men often were out of work, women didn t work, they re very poor, schools were just terrible, some of my friends ended up in prison, no one went to college.
2
SPEAKER_01
And as I walked down the street, I just started thinking about each house had somebody in this context of powerlessness who was dying young.
2
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Literally, next door neighbor at the top of the road was some guy who died pretty early, his son.
2
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When he just fell in our backyard, he broke his arm.
2
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And when we saw him break, now we know from science, that s called child frailty syndrome, which is your bones start decaying prematurely.
2
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Go down a couple streets, my best friend s sister had leukemia, his dad got cancer, heart attacks early.
2
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People are dying young, and I didn t really think about it until the science of powerlessness started getting off the ground.
2
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And the first discovery was that, was twofold.
2
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If you don t feel powerful, if you don t have voice at work, if you feel muted in your family,
2
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If you feel powerless in a marriage, if you feel powerless or stigmatized in society, you are chronically stressed out.
2
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Biologically, your fight or flight system with cortisol revving up your body as if it s taking on a predator.
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It s supercharged.
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That s finding one.
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And then we now know if I have 20 or 30 years, 40 years of just feeling like I m defending myself.
2
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Drowning.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, drowning.
2
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Your body starts to prematurely die, right?
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And your cells wither.
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You have cardiovascular problems, your veins clog up, your stomach lining is damaged, your brain cells start to die.
2
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So this science that not a lot of people know about, very relevant today, was telling us the central health problem in the United States.
2
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is the people who feel disenfranchised in our society, that they don t have a voice.
2
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There s this new finding, very relevant to today s political world.
2
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One of the only groups in the industrialized world to die younger than their parents are poor white people in the United States.
2
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They are dying younger than their parents.
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Everybody else lives longer because
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They feel powerless, they feel like, this political establishment doesn t hear me, I m making less money than my dad made, my kids are screwing up.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, in some sense it was the real deep reason why I wrote the book.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yikes, I mean that s surprising data, especially because you don t think powerlessness can kill you, you just think, ah, you know, you have a lower standard of living than other people, but you can be fine, you don t need to have a three story house with a pool, you ll survive.
2
SPEAKER_00
But actually you won t.
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SPEAKER_00
Not because of the pool, but because of the feelings of powerlessness.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s actually really, really terrible.
2
SPEAKER_00
All jokes aside, that s really awful because the fact that powerlessness can cause chronic disease is a new discovery.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it is.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s so stunning, Jordan.
2
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Nancy Adler at UC San Francisco, one of the first papers on this found, you know, if you rank people on a 10 point scale, this finding that being lower rank hurts your physical health applies at all tiers of the scale.
2
SPEAKER_01
So if I m a seven and I m doing pretty well, but my friends in eight, we go to the same doctor, we eat the same food, we exercise in the same way, he lives longer than I do.
2
SPEAKER_01
Unbelievable.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because he s feeling a little bit more agentic and powerful.
2
SPEAKER_00
So is this just subjective then?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because if it is, well, since it is, how do we start to feel more powerful?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because your life literally depends on it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not just your self-esteem or meeting someone of the opposite sex or the same sex to start a family with.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not attraction based.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is, hey, you should do this because you ll die early if you don t.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s a good reason.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, well, you know, we re just starting to learn.
2
SPEAKER_01
And one thing we do know, let s take the management context where we know this, we have more better data on this, which is if you re running an organization, and some of the people, you re in a position of power, and you re going to benefit health wise.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then there are people who are potentially at risk because of feeling disengaged or disempowered.
2
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We now know
2
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that those leaders who have the style that you described earlier of like they check in on people, they listen carefully, they send the notes, they express gratitude, their colleagues that they re managing have better health profiles, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
So I think these older ethics of like respect, dignity, as well as letting people have voice and speaking up are some of the pathways to agency and power independent of
2
SPEAKER_01
Are you a CEO or not?
2
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Are you famous or not?
2
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It s these psychological empowerments that really matter.
2
SPEAKER_00
What if we find ourselves disempowered?
2
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What can we do about it ourselves?
2
SPEAKER_00
Is it about finding a new environment?
2
SPEAKER_00
Hey, look, my job s not only stressing me out, it s literally killing me, as I ve learned from this video or this show.
2
SPEAKER_00
How do I fix that?
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, is it about unplugging from what s causing the stress?
2
SPEAKER_01
I do.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s so interesting.
2
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You know, I ve taught leaders at Berkeley for 20 years, you know, leaders in science and technology, Facebook and government and the like.
2
SPEAKER_01
People have experienced this dynamic of powerlessness viscerally.
2
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We all have.
2
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I ve had periods where I feel like I m being dominated by somebody and it keeps me up.
2
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My heart feels like it s racing and that s bad for the body.
2
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And I think that there are things you can do to take steps towards bullies or dominators.
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You can call them out.
2
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You can make them aware of their reputation.
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You can gossip about them.
2
SPEAKER_01
You can be formal in saying, you can t do this behavior, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
If the guy, most typically guys, is incorrigible, you pull out, like you said.
2
SPEAKER_00
But we can use reputation and gossip like medicine.
2
SPEAKER_00
Definitely.
2
SPEAKER_00
All right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, if you re going to be that way, I m going to make sure everybody knows about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Here s the email I m sending out.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it s like Yelp for people.
2
SPEAKER_00
This guy, just so you know.
2
SPEAKER_00
And those are happening.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And rightfully so.
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SPEAKER_00
Some of the time anyway.
2
SPEAKER_00
Totally makes sense, it s so funny how you can use these as tools now.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now we see the need for it anyway.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_00
What s the relationship between power and status and control and social class and all those things?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because I feel like you could kind of lump all those together, but you might not be totally right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, thanks for asking that.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you know, this is why we do science.
2
SPEAKER_01
When people use language, we would say, hey, that guy s powerful, or she s really powerful.
2
SPEAKER_01
And we might be meaning many different things.
2
SPEAKER_01
We might call the new pope powerful, right?
2
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And call somebody on a baseball field or celebrity powerful.
2
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And I think what science is really useful for doing is pulling apart concepts.
2
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Class is your wealth, education, and the prestige of your work.
2
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But it explains about 20% of your power, right, 30%.
2
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But that s not that much.
2
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So you can be very wealthy and not do anything.
3
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in the world.
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There are plenty of people doing that right around here, definitely.
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And we can all think of examples like, that guy s got a ton of money and he hasn t done anything.
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Never worked a day in his life.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And by the way, you cannot have money and change the world profoundly, right?
3
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And have a lot of power and it s all around us.
3
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Then you pull apart control and control
3
SPEAKER_01
Very often goes with power, but you know, people, you can have a lot of control over your life and have no power or influence whatsoever.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I always think like a hermit, right, who lives in a cave in North Africa has total control and has no power, right?
3
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They re not doing anything.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then most trickily is status and how we think about status is status is the esteem that you enjoy in other people s eyes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that s so close to power, though, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
It is.
3
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But you can separate them.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, you know, it s interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like there are financiers.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you can even think about Donald Trump as having a certain amount of power, but very low status.
3
SPEAKER_01
People think he s... Oh, that s a good point.
3
SPEAKER_01
They have a very negative opinion of him.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you can think about a lot of examples of people who have a lot of power, but aren t respected.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you can think about people who are respected, but don t have a lot of power.
3
SPEAKER_01
So we ve got to pull them apart.
3
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This is like an equalizer on a stereo.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s a lot of little sliders here, but they all do different things.
3
SPEAKER_01
And equalizer s the great metaphor because I think it s so interesting how we do a lot of things in our social behavior and our social communities that give status to people.
3
SPEAKER_01
We give them awards, we act deferentially around them, we treat them with respect, we call them out in a public meeting, and those are all ways in which we give status to people for pro-social things that are the basis of power.
3
SPEAKER_00
So we re thereby regulating, again, the behavior geared towards the interests of the group by conferring status, conferring power on people that behave the way that the collective we want them to do.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s stunning how powerful this motive for status and esteem is.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, when you think about the world of philanthropy,
3
SPEAKER_01
A lot of people give away a lot of money, right?
3
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To be respected, and that s a good thing in many ways.
3
SPEAKER_00
I wondered why people do that for so long.
3
SPEAKER_00
Why are rich people then suddenly turning around and organizing all these events and charities and things like that?
3
SPEAKER_00
And I realized, especially if you earn your money in a way that is either
3
SPEAKER_00
not that respectful, and this is not a general statement, but I ve noticed that some of the people that I know who are wealthy, but have earned their money doing things like online gambling, they often turn around and they re like, alright, this is an animal charity, and we got the veteran charity, and then we got this other kid s charity, and I m thinking, why are you so obsessed with this?
3
SPEAKER_00
And the reason is, they probably feel like crap, because everyone goes, that s the guy, yeah, he s got a nice car, but don t respect him, he made all his money ripping people off with porn sites,
3
SPEAKER_00
online gambling and stuff like that.
3
SPEAKER_00
So they go, but look at all these other nice things I m doing.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, okay, all right, here s a little bit of respect.
3
SPEAKER_01
It is.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then again, it s this, a lot of people feel cynical about that, but I m all for forms of.
3
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altruism and philanthropy that advance the welfare of others, no matter what the motivation is.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, it was just something that I d noticed now that I float around in some of those circles.
3
SPEAKER_00
I always wondered, why would you want to give it all away?
3
SPEAKER_00
Or if you want to give it all away, do it quietly.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, what s the difference?
3
SPEAKER_00
No, no, no, no.
3
SPEAKER_00
This has to be a frigging production.
3
SPEAKER_00
We need this to make up for 20 years of investment banking or whatever it was.
3
SPEAKER_00
And speaking of altruism, what was competitive altruism?
3
SPEAKER_00
You brought that up earlier.
3
SPEAKER_00
That was an interesting
3
SPEAKER_01
Competitive altruism is exactly this dynamic we ve been talking about, Jordan, which is economists started to notice how, from a pure self-interested perspective, you shouldn t really share that much.
3
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You shouldn t give away your own resources.
3
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And people do it prolifically.
3
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You think about all the billionaires who are giving away 50 to 95% of their wealth.
3
SPEAKER_01
That doesn t make sense from a rational economic perspective.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so they came up with this idea of competitive altruism, which as they say, there is this motive of being esteemed by others.
3
SPEAKER_01
And neuroscience studies show like, the people close to me, if they respect me, that s as powerful.
3
SPEAKER_01
activating reward circuits in my brain as anything.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so that motive of being respected drives a lot of selfless behavior.
3
SPEAKER_01
Over at UC Berkeley, you look at, there s a philanthropy wall and all the names, and this happens everywhere.
3
SPEAKER_01
And they love seeing their names being on a little brick.
3
SPEAKER_00
just seven feet above where the eye can see without a ladder.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s you up there.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and this traces back to hunter-gatherer societies where, you know, they re actually, in most hunter-gatherer cultures, this is before money, before the written word, this is thousands of years ago, they would save food for a long time and they d have these big festivals.
3
SPEAKER_01
Whoever gave away the most food was kind of the highest status woman or man, had respect from the peers, a few more sexual opportunities.
3
SPEAKER_01
So status is this powerful equalizer of power.
3
SPEAKER_00
That makes sense just biologically speaking, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Look, we want to incentivize saving, so how do we do that?
3
SPEAKER_00
We give you status for doing it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then what it tells us, and it s a part of what we ve been talking about, which is that
3
SPEAKER_01
If you want power to work well in your society, you really have to esteem the right things, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
And once you start esteeming other things, people stop being generous and you get more rampant abuses.
3
SPEAKER_00
You end up with poor incentives, misaligned incentives.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right, that s right.
3
SPEAKER_00
What about empathy?
3
SPEAKER_00
Where does that fall into this whole melting pot?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, you know, I think it s, in a way, you re so right to zero in on it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think it s the magic ingredient of good power.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was blown away, I was reading Doris Kearns Goodwin, Team of Rivals, and it s about Abraham Lincoln.
3
SPEAKER_01
And Lincoln is rated by most historians as our best president.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Really?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
I didn t know that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Top three or four, usually top one or two with FDR.
3
SPEAKER_01
First of all, he was a very unlikely president in some sense.
3
SPEAKER_01
He was poor, tall, awkward, funny clothes.
3
SPEAKER_01
So he was not supposed to win the Republican nomination.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then he navigated through slavery and the most serious moral issue of our history.
3
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of people have sort of thought about, what was it about Lincoln that was so, how did he do that?
3
SPEAKER_01
And it really was empathy.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I ll just quote to you Thurlow Weed, who was this journalist who was actually a strategist for an opponent of Lincoln, was like, what is it about this awkward-looking, tall, poor guy?
3
SPEAKER_01
Why is he doing so well politically?
3
SPEAKER_01
And he said, Lincoln sees all who come to him.
3
SPEAKER_01
He hears all they have to say.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he reads everything that s written to him.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he was a genius.
3
SPEAKER_00
He didn t have email.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s why.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, what would the digital link could have been like?
3
SPEAKER_01
I read almost everything that comes to me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or you would have had a different kind of email.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
But the point being is it s back to what we talked about earlier, like he just was engaged and knew where people were coming from.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what we find in our studies is, you know, if you re empathetic, if you know where people are coming from, if you keep track of their emotions, you re going to rise in power.
3
SPEAKER_01
wherever you go, but regrettably, feeling powerful kind of diminishes your empathic ability, so that s the paradox of power.
3
SPEAKER_00
So this power paradox that diminishes our ability to have empathy by whatever mechanism, which is detailed in the book, by the way, so not that we don t know it, but it seems less how it happens, more important that it happens in general, why do we need to transcend that as a society or as a civilization in order to succeed?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you know, thanks for asking that question.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, the studies of the power paradox, the second part to the equation of like, wow, power leads to these abuses, find that if you give any human being a little bit of power, they eat more of the food in a social group,
3
SPEAKER_01
are more likely to shoplift.
3
SPEAKER_01
Our research finds people who drive really fancy cars drive through pedestrian zones.
3
SPEAKER_01
Guilty.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t even have a fancy car and I know I ve still caught myself doing that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, if you re going to cross slow, I m just going to go.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now I m aware of you, man.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I ll be tracking you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Gossip, man.
3
SPEAKER_00
No need.
3
SPEAKER_00
Reputation already tanked.
3
SPEAKER_01
But it gets worse.
3
SPEAKER_01
They are more likely to have sexual affairs, sexual harassment.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t think it takes a leap of the imagination to say, if you look at a lot of the spectacularly greedy behavior you see of
3
SPEAKER_01
and Ron, and people paying themselves tens of millions of dollars where their workers are making nine bucks an hour, and now we know the health costs of that.
3
SPEAKER_01
I do feel the abuses of power are the central challenge of civilizations, and that s why we have to transcend them.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s so much more severe when you see the data and when you see people dying because of feelings of powerlessness, things that should be maybe not easily corrected but are definitely solvable with our current level of technology and advances.
3
SPEAKER_00
And one thing I saw that I couldn t believe in the book was that the group most likely to shoplift was wealthy white people.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I was just like, that s wrong, come on.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, there s so many funny stereotypes about the wealthy and the poor.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so we published this paper in 2012
4
SPEAKER_02
got a lot of buzz of like high power wealthy people are more likely to behave unethically.
4
SPEAKER_02
They lie in gambling games, they cheat on, you know, in games, they take stuff that was meant for kids.
4
SPEAKER_02
Literally candy that was meant for kids.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s bad.
4
SPEAKER_02
So then we did this study where we positioned a pedestrian at a California crosswalk and we just tracked like who obeyed the law and stopped and then who blazed through.
4
SPEAKER_02
And for anybody who was driving a poor car, Plymouth Satellite, they stopped, all of them.
4
SPEAKER_02
and then 46% of the people driving the Range Rovers and the like cut through, and it started getting out there, and people were like, whoa, the wealthy are kind of violating the laws.
4
SPEAKER_02
And this is replicated in a lot of places.
4
SPEAKER_02
We started getting all these emails of people, and one came from this guy who s like, you re not gonna believe this.
4
SPEAKER_02
It was a team of medical doctors, and they were interested in shoplifting.
4
SPEAKER_02
Shoplifting costs the US economy 10 to 15 billion dollars.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s a lot.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s ridiculous.
4
SPEAKER_02
They did a nationally representative sample.
4
SPEAKER_02
So it is like a very exhaustive, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
This isn t just like people in San Francisco.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Wealthy and white.
4
SPEAKER_02
This is the real thing.
4
SPEAKER_02
And you look at the tables and there it is, man, like wealthy white people are more likely to shoplift.
4
SPEAKER_02
I was blown away.
4
SPEAKER_02
It is mind blowing.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then you add that to like, but if you re an African-American young guy going into a store, you are going to get checked
4
SPEAKER_01
Everyone will assume you are going to.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, not that you are going to, but the whole of society would more likely assume that you would be a thief versus Winona Ryder, who actually was a thief, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
A good-looking thief.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yes, right.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s crazy.
4
SPEAKER_01
It is crazy.
4
SPEAKER_01
That is unbelievable.
4
SPEAKER_01
But it makes sense in the context of what we ve learned today, for sure.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and you know, I think that s part of the, I think the encouraging message of the power paradox, you know, and you re getting at it by transcending these problematic tendencies, which is, we re all vulnerable to this, you know.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I think all of your listeners, they will have a lot of times in their life where they feel like, yeah, I m on the top of my game, look at me, I m with my friends, or I ve just done well at work.
4
SPEAKER_02
And that s when we re most vulnerable, right, to offending somebody or treating somebody with disrespect or acting unethically.
4
SPEAKER_02
So I think it s just an important reminder.
4
SPEAKER_01
Is there anything that I haven t asked you that you want to make sure you bring home for us?
4
SPEAKER_02
You ve nailed it.
4
SPEAKER_02
You ve covered the entire 20 years of my career.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, well, good.
4
SPEAKER_01
In approximately 40 minutes, I think.
4
SPEAKER_02
I haven t checked the clock, but thank you so much.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s been a pleasure, Jordan.
4
SPEAKER_02
What a great conversation.
4
SPEAKER_01
Interesting stuff, I really had no idea that power was related to lifespan.
4
SPEAKER_01
A lot of surprises in this one as well.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I do think that yes, of course we ve all heard absolute power corrupts absolutely, but it s not really a problem that you think about affecting the entire society or infecting your psyche in a way that s unhealthy for everyone involved.
4
SPEAKER_01
So a lot here to think about, a lot here to apply.
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And if you enjoyed this one, don t forget you can thank Decker on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as the Power Paradoxes book.
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You can tap our album art in most mobile podcast players to see the cheat sheet for this episode.
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We ll link to the show notes right on your phone.
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I m also on Twitter, at The Art of Charm.
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I post a lot of articles and insights and you can engage with me there really easily, at The Art of Charm on Twitter.
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Bootcamp and Art of Charm live program details on the website bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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Note the two dots, the double dots.
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We re sold out a few months in advance.
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So if you re thinking about it a little bit, it s in the back of your brain somewhere, get in touch ASAP.
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We ll get some info right to you.
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You can plan ahead, get the ball rolling.
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And I also want to encourage you to join us in our social capital challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or if you re in the States, text charmed to 33444.
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It s all about improving your connection skills, your networking skills, and inspiring other people to develop relationships with you, both personally and professionally.
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I ll also send you that Fundamentals Toolbox I mentioned earlier in the show, as well as some videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward.
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It ll make you a better networker, it ll make you a better connector, and a better thinker, so check it out, theartofcharm.com, slash challenge, or text charmed, for those of you sitting in your car right now, in the US, to 33444.
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This episode of the Art of Charm podcast was produced by Jason DeFillippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
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Show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty and I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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So stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.