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If I can find some classical ideal of being this excellent person, that resonates with me.
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If it s Theodore Roosevelt or Julius Caesar or some great badass from history.
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displaying this virtue, I m like, that s awesome.
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And there s all this conversation about we need to redefine masculinity.
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What you need to do is just revive this classical idea of manliness that we once had and bring it back.
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And also taking into consideration, yeah, there s some parts of masculinity or traditional manliness that maybe we should leave in the dustbin of history.
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Don t throw the baby out the bathwater.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re talking with my friend Brett McKay of The Art of Manliness.
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Yes, the brand does sound similar.
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No, we did not do that on purpose.
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This is a rare episode of AOC because it is specifically for guys.
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It is about manliness.
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We re going to talk about why modern masculinity should be revived, not necessarily redefined.
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The domains a man should develop to become well-rounded.
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why men should strive to be useful, not important, and what that has to do with manliness, and why action is the key to flourishing and why you need to get out of your head.
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A little bonus discussion at the end about resilience.
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If you liked our episode about grit, you might dig that discussion, so get your edumacation with us here at the Art of Charm and Brett McKay from the Art of Manliness.
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See what I did there?
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And by the way, if you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the AOC Toolbox.
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That s where we discuss concepts like reading body language and having charismatic nonverbal communication, the science of attraction, negotiation techniques, networking and influence strategies, mentorship, persuasion tactics, and everything else that we teach here at The Art of Charm.
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Check that out at theartofcharm.com slash toolbox.
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Also at theartofcharm.com slash podcast, you can find the show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show.
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Alright, here s Brett McKay.
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Well, first of all, we accidentally have, in a way, kind of similar branding.
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I did not know about Art of Manliness when we started Art of Charm, and I m sure you did not know about Art of Charm when you started Art of Manliness, because we were both relatively small.
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When did we get introduced?
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Eight, nine years ago?
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Through a friend of mine that played soccer with you when you guys were in, like, second grade.
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No, it was, like, younger than that.
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I was, like, in kindergarten.
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It was Laura, I think was her name.
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Yeah, and she was one of the original Art of Charm AOC sisters, as we call them, and she s like, hey, this friend of mine is writing this book, and I think it s about to come out.
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And she had gotten an advanced copy from you or your publicist or something like that, and I thought,
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this guy s got a really similar track.
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And then four years go by or something and we only talk like twice.
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And then suddenly it s like, oh yeah, we re both still doing this.
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We should probably sync up.
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As these things go, you had a bunch of kids and a bunch of stuff happened and your business blew up in a good way.
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And here we are with Art of Manliness being this ginormous internet property.
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Do you mind if I ask you how many people visit your blog every month?
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Yeah, we get about 12 million page views a month right now.
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That s gotta be one of the single largest, I don t know about websites, because you re throwing in Amazon and stuff, but at least one of the largest blogs anywhere.
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Yeah, I mean, we re one of the largest independent men s lifestyle sites.
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We re still behind some of the big corporate behemoths like AskMen or Esquire, Men s Health, but slowly catching up.
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And it s been crazy, because I never, like when I started this, I didn t think I was gonna be doing this, you know, eight years later, but here we are, and it s been a blast.
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I don t even think you need to worry about some of those sites, because first of all, if you look at some of these men s sites that are owned by big companies, not only are they just a cluster ball of garbage and ads, you can t find anything in there.
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There s no voice, so to speak.
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as us artsy-fartsy people call it, right?
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There s no person talking to you.
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It s like, here s a bunch of random fitness videos.
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Oh, here s a video about some hot chick of the week.
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Oh, here s a guy who writes for us about technology.
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It s just like this random, if Maxim barfed on GQ and they took all their worst content and put it on a website, it would be some of these other sites.
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I don t think you even want to catch those, because they re in the race to the bottom for ads and page views and things like that.
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Whereas, when you look at Art of Manliness, you see a coherent voice.
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For you, that must have been somewhat challenging, not to write in a coherent voice, but to resist the urge to corporatize yourself.
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I can imagine you ve probably taken many a meeting where they say, here s what we re gonna do.
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We re gonna turn you into the next whatever website with these girls and these clothes, and there s gonna be $7,000 worth of ads every week on there, and you re gonna double your income.
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It must have been hard to say, I don t want that.
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Actually, it wasn t hard at all, because I ve been very particular about maintaining that voice.
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And yeah, we ve had offers, you know, to buy us out.
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And then also just dealing with advertisers, them wanting to do a certain thing.
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And I m like, nah, I m not comfortable with that.
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I don t think my readers would like that.
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I don t, they wouldn t resonate with it.
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I don t resonate with it.
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So yeah, you have to be willing to say no.
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And honestly,
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It s not that hard.
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If you believe in something, you believe in your message, then saying no is actually really easy.
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And that s an interesting point, because it seems like you d have to have, and I hate corporate buzzwords, but it seems like you d have to have some core values that are very clearly articulated, or at least very clear to your instinct in your own mind if you re the sole decision maker, that you make decisions
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these decisions around those values.
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And I think for you, it s gotta be this idea of manliness and the idea of manliness that you re promoting at Art of Manliness.
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Does that make sense?
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Yeah, that s exactly what it is.
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I mean, the reason why I started the Art of Manliness was because I was tired, sick of myself, of all the men s content that was being put out there.
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Here s the origin story.
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I was actually in a Borders bookstore when I was in law school taking a break, and I was just browsing the men s magazines, just killing time during a study session, and I just realized that
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Every month, when you read the headlines on these magazines, it s the exact same thing.
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You know what you re going to get.
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There s going to be articles about six-pack abs.
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There s going to be an interview with some actress or model where she shares what she looks for in a guy.
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And it s like, why is that useful?
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I m never going to talk to you.
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Also, I m married.
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Showing clothes that the average guy could not afford, $4,000
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sweaters, right?
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Just a sweater.
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It s $4,000.
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Like I m a broke law student.
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I m never going to afford that.
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And so I decided, you know what, I m tired of this.
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This doesn t resonate with me.
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So I m going to start the men s magazine that I would want to read.
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And so that s what I did.
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And so basically, what you see on the Art of Manliness is the men s magazine that Brett McKay would want to read himself.
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Do you get a bunch of email like I used to get before we sort of opened up AOC to everyone?
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Do you get a lot of email from women that s like, hey, how come you re excluding our gender?
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What s going on there?
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How do you handle that type of thing?
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I don t get that, actually.
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In fact, most emails I get from women are like, this is fantastic.
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Like, I m so glad I have, there s this thing I can point my husbands to, my brothers to, my sons to.
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my guy friends too, that I can get behind.
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I love what you guys are doing, the idea of manliness that you re promoting.
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We have a lot of readers, not a lot, I mean probably 20% of our readers are female.
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They re our biggest shares.
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They share our content with the men in their life.
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And so as far as women saying you re exclusive, we don t really get that at all.
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The only time we really got that was when a lot of who we now call AOC sisters were a little disappointed that we weren t speaking more to them.
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It wasn t that they felt excluded.
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It was, look, I like this so much.
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I want stuff that s more tailored to me.
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And I think that s a good problem to have when people want more from you.
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Right.
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The one thing, the requests we get from women a lot is like, when are you going to start like a website like this for women?
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Because I think there s a lot of women who felt the same way I did about men s magazine, but they feel about women s magazines, right?
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They re just tired of the same content over and over again, like makeup reviews and how to tone your tush and tone your abs.
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they re looking for something a little more substantial as well that speaks to them as a woman.
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And yeah, I mean, I d love to start an Art of Womanliness.
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I just don t have the bandwidth right now.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And you don t want to license the brand to somebody who you can t trust.
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That s another thing.
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Right, exactly.
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I mean, I ve had requests like, hey, I ll take it.
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I m like, I don t know.
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I don t know if I can trust that.
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Also, it d be kind of weird for a guy to start a website called The Art of Womanliness.
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Yeah, I ll give you that one.
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So that d be weird.
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That d be fraught with different issues.
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Like here s a guy who s telling ladies how to be a lady.
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So if I were to do it, I would have to find a lady partner who kind of gets sort of the idea, sort of the general vibe we re trying to do with the art of manliness and be able to do that for women as well.
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So what is the idea of manliness that you promote at Art of Manliness?
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What is different about that?
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Yeah, we ve seen all these men sell six-pack abs, the spring break workout.
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It s almost just avoiding the point entirely.
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I mean, they re not even trying to say this is manly.
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They re just kind of implying, hey, you have a low sense of self-worth in this one area.
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We re trying to hit that so that you pick this up so that we can sell ads.
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It s a very different thing that you re promoting.
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I mean, you have an idea of what manliness is slash should be, at least according to the brand, that is
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maybe very traditional, or maybe it s completely different than what we re used to expecting?
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Yeah, so the idea of masculinity that I m promoting is actually very classical.
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It comes from the ancient Greeks and ancient Romans, and it was the idea of manliness that s been around in the West for most of human history, up until about the middle of the 20th century, we saw this shift happen.
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And the classical idea of manliness basically meant being a man of virtue, right?
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We need to broaden our understanding of what virtue means because I think us modern folks, we have this idea of virtue being very sissy and being very proper and prudish, etc.
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But like the ancient Greeks and the ancient Romans, their idea of virtue just meant being excellent in a whole wide variety of fields.
1
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So like take our word virtue, for example.
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It comes from the Latin word virtus.
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which means manliness in Latin, and the word vir, it s pronounced weir, but you can say vir, that s the word man.
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So like for the ancient Romans to be manly, to be a man, meant being a man of virtue.
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And what kind of virtues did an ancient Roman expect you to have?
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Well, it meant
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having courage, first and foremost, being a man of temperance, being a man of compassion, being big-souled, being frugal.
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It was just about being this well-rounded individuals.
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And the ancient Greeks had this idea of erete, which meant excellence.
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and you wanted to be excellent in virtue.
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And you could be excellent in all sorts of virtues.
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Physical virtues, intellectual virtues, moral virtues, et cetera.
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And that was their idea of manliness, just being a well-rounded individual.
1
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Someone who s listening is like, well, this could apply to women.
1
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Yeah, it can and it should.
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But what we do is we try to cater this to male taste.
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Because I think while all these things are very applicable across genders, men and women, for the most part,
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have different tastes or they respond differently to different types of voice.
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I have a hard time reading women s magazines because what they re writing there or books geared towards women, it doesn t resonate with me.
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SPEAKER_03
Even though it s the same, it s talking about being a good person, etc., it doesn t resonate with me.
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But if I can find some classical ideal of being this excellent person, that resonates with me.
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It s Theodore Roosevelt or Julius Caesar s or some great badass from history displaying this virtue.
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I m like, that s awesome.
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So I mean, that s basically what we re trying to promote here at the Art of Manliness is very classical ideal of manliness.
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And there s all this conversation about we need to redefine masculinity.
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What you need to do is just revive this classical idea of manliness that we once had and bring it back.
1
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And also taking into consideration, yeah, there s some parts of masculinity or traditional manliness that maybe we should leave in the dustbin of history.
1
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Don t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Keep the good stuff, but get rid of the bad stuff.
1
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Right, of course.
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So let s talk about what you think the good stuff is.
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I mean, what domains should a well-rounded man have?
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Yeah, I think one, being physically strong.
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I mean, I ve done a lot of research on the anthropology of masculinity, and across cultures through time, one of the defining characteristics of a man is he s physically strong.
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Now, some people think that s dumb, right?
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Sort of that alpha male, bodybuilder bro thing.
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it s being strong with the purpose, right?
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It s not just being strong for sex appeal or so you have the six-pack abs and sort of, that s sort of like that stuff we were talking about earlier, but being strong for a purpose.
1
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by being physically strong so you can serve others, being physically strong so you can do well in your job, being physically strong so you can protect others, whether it s your family or your neighbors, or if you re a soldier, this is particularly important.
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You wanna be strong so you can fight for your country or fight for your tribe or et cetera.
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So yeah, being physically strong I think is really important for me.
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And I think one of the things I ve noticed in my own life, in developing my own physical strength, it s carried over into other areas of my life.
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I ve become more,
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mentally and emotionally resilient, I ve developed more grit, I m more motivated in other areas of my life because I ve seen how becoming stronger physically, like just seeing that manifestation in my physicality, I don t know, just gives you this confidence that you can carry over into other aspects of your life.
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1
SPEAKER_01
Are there different types of skills, like hard skills versus soft skills?
1
SPEAKER_01
At AOC, especially at our workshops and things like that, we talk a lot about soft skills, right?
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Conversations, savoir-faire, social dynamics and things to avoid in those areas and things to cultivate in those areas.
1
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You seem to have a set of skills that you write about regularly on the blog and talk about on your show as well that have to do, like you said, physical strength.
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There s some outdoorsy stuff.
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Do you separate the hard skills from the soft skills?
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What kind of balance do you think we should talk about here?
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No.
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So what we re trying to do, we try to find a balance between hard and soft skills.
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I think for men particularly, like there s something that men, they enjoy the hard stuff, right?
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They enjoy the hard skills.
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learning how to work with their hands, doing outdoor survival skills, building something, something like that.
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There s something gratifying about that, developing those hard skills.
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But we also focus on the soft skills because, yeah, if you want to be successful as a man, whether it s your professional life or your love life, you need to understand how that savoir faire of James Bond, right, like where you can be in any situation and navigate it successfully.
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So we talk a lot about social skills.
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We talk about money and finances.
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We talk about relationships.
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I mean, this is stuff you need to understand in order to thrive as a man in the 21st century.
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You re probably not gonna ever have to bug out with your bug out bag and use your survival skills.
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I think it s useful to know that stuff because you never know, it could happen.
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Also, it s just enjoyable to understand that stuff and work with it.
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So what we try to promote on The Art of Manliness is just this well-rounded man that combines both soft and hard virtues
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We call him the gentleman barbarian.
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That s sort of our archetype, is a guy who s strong physically, who s mentally, or who s effective with these hard skills, that s the barbarian part, but is also refined, is temperate, and has softened some of that hard...
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parts of masculinity with some of the softer virtues.
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Got it.
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This is important in order not only, of course, to stay modern, but it seems like your concept of the modern man, which we share, is somebody who is not only able to hold his own, but is also not afraid to show vulnerability, show and display vulnerability.
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this type of emotional thinking with people in his inner circle, friends and family, to create strong relationships.
1
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Because when we talk about manliness and we think Don Draper, we look at somebody who s completely emotionally unavailable.
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They might have some great hard skills in some areas, and they might have even a great sense of savoir-faire, but when it comes down to
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talking with his wife, I mean, we ve all seen those mad men, seems weird, just cringing, because you re like, man, are you really going to read the newspaper in bed and ignore everything she says?
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You re a terrible husband, right?
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You re a terrible father.
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It s almost laughable, and I ve seen a lot of things on the site, of course, that people have shared with me that go into detail about how and why not to do that.
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which I think is very useful.
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Speaking of usefulness, you ve written about why men should strive to be useful and not important.
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Can you tell us, first of all, why that is and what that has to do with manliness and the concept of manliness across cultures?
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I think it s sort of endemic of our culture right now is this idea of being important.
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It s not just men, it also affects women as well, is that you have to, like this whole social media culture where you have to be known and you have to show yourself doing awesome things and you have to develop your personal brand, it s a word I hate,
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And it s all about being important.
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And no one ever focuses on being useful.
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If you look at particularly masculinity, there s a great book by David Gilmour.
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He s an anthropologist who did a cross-cultural analysis of what manliness meant across cultures.
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One of the defining traits of a man, no matter in which culture you were, is that a man was useful.
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He was effective.
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He produced more than he consumed.
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And so I m trying to bring back that idea of being a man doesn t mean that everyone knows you, that you re Mr. Cool Guy, you have a bajillion Instagram followers, whatever.
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It just means being useful wherever you find yourself in life, whether it s at work, in your family, in your community.
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Just be useful.
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And what s interesting is oftentimes when you just focus on being useful to others without any expectation of being important and being well-known, oftentimes you end up being well-known and important because you ve provided so much value to others.
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you and I are doing, or at least so far as I would like to think you and I are doing, which is creating something that s worth a legacy, right, that s legacy-worthy, I should say, that is useful, people are supposed to put it into action, they re supposed to put it in practice in their lives and in their relationships and at work, and by vis-a-vis that,
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you generate a quote-unquote fan base or connections and relationships that make you important, that create an indispensable role for you, instead of striving for 100,000 Instagram followers that are gonna click like when you post a picture of yourself eating ice cream, but really you ve made yourself a commodity along with every other hashtag influencer, another word that I assume that you hate.
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I like personal brand and influencers, I put those in the same toilet.
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and you create that sort of fake or faux image of yourself that has nothing to do with usefulness and everything to do with ego and self-validation, and at the end of the day, even if you make it to the top, it s a completely empty pursuit.
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Right, exactly.
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So there s two paradigms you can focus on.
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One is a very superficial paradigm.
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where, like you talk about, you just do these sort of superficial things to make yourself appealing to others.
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But then the other paradigm is a character paradigm where you just focus on developing your character, being trustworthy, doing those things, being useful, and in the process, yeah, I mean, the side benefit of that is you might become important, right?
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Like that thing that everyone wants.
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And you might not.
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Here s the thing, like you should be doing those things even if you don t
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become important, like still strive to be useful, because in the end, that s what provides meaning in your life.
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In the end, you re not going to look back and say, Oh, boy, I m so glad I had, you know, those bajillion face, you know, Instagram followers or whatever, you re gonna think, man, I m really glad that all the things I was able to do for others, like that meant a lot to me, even though sometimes it was hard, it provided a lot of meaning to me.
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Actually, at Art of Charm, one of our chief concepts that I find myself repeating over and over is the idea of getting out of your head.
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And you and I talked about this pre-show about getting out of your head, why that s so important, and about taking action.
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The AOC family s no stranger to hearing me talk about taking action, but I d love to hear your take on it, because I feel like sometimes when one person says something over and over, it starts to dull a little bit, and I feel like you probably have an interesting take on this concept.
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No, this is something that s near and dear to my heart.
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I ve been thinking about this idea of getting out of your head, as you said, a lot lately.
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Because I think that s the thing that s plaguing us in our modern life.
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Everyone s like neurotic now.
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Everyone s depressed.
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Everyone s anxious.
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Everyone just
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there s like this malaise that s come over us.
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I think a lot of it is because, yeah, like we live inside of our heads, right?
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And our head, our computer is an extension of our head.
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Like this digital online world is an extension of our head.
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We just tend to renumerate over like stuff that s not important.
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We just scan through feeds of news that s very abstract.
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We read content that has this advice, but it s still abstract because we don t have the motivation to do anything with it.
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So we just sit there like spinning this wheel.
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inside of our head and just makes us miserable.
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But the thing I found is the antidote to that is just taking action.
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Like just do something.
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It doesn t have to be that big either.
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I think one of the things that holds a lot of people back from taking action is they think it has to be this big giant thing, right?
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I have to set up this perfect workout plan.
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I have to do it perfectly.
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And if I don t, then it s gonna fall apart.
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But no, you don t have to do that.
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Just like get up and like do some pushups.
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It can be as simple as that.
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It s a starting point.
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The antidote to getting out of your head
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is getting connected back with the real world, the concrete world.
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And you do that just by interacting with it on a day-to-day basis and taking action and rubbing up against friction.
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And by friction, I mean just frustrations that happen along the way because things don t go how you planned.
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Annoying people can be friction.
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That friction, though, allows you to, it gets out of your head.
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You realize that there s a world beyond my head.
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There are these frustrations.
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There are these things that are just gonna rub me the wrong way.
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But that s good, it helps you get outside of your head and helps you realize there s a whole world beyond there and you should embrace it instead of thinking that it was annoying, like this is just something I can play with, this is like a test.
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and it s a chance for me to refine myself and get better.
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But yeah, if there s one thing I m a big harper on, it s just taking action.
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It doesn t have to be huge, just do something small, just super simple.
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So do you have any sort of beginner steps?
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I know you re big on, first of all, taking action, but also I think the problem with getting out of our heads is a lot of people go,
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How do I get out of there?
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Let me think about that for a while.
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Oh my god, what if I don t do it and it doesn t work?
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And then we end up in our head about getting out of our head and all this other meta barf that happens.
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It can be just as simple as going out for a walk.
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Just walk outside your door, walk for 20 or 30 minutes, and then come back, and that s it.
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It s as simple as that.
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And you d be surprised what that can do for you.
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And then from there, if you want to up your game a bit, you ll say, I m going to start lifting weights.
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All right.
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just go to the gym, like that could be your first step, right?
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You don t have to have a workout in store, just go to the gym, get yourself there, and then once you re there, lift some weights, and just mess around, and then see how you enjoy it.
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Like you re gonna find out, this is actually really great, I enjoy this, and then you go home and you say, okay, I m gonna develop a program.
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So you do some research online, so you have to kind of get inside your head again, develop a program, doesn t have to be very complicated, super slick, and then go back to the gym and do it.
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That s the thing, don t overthink it, just get out there and do something.
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One of the things that came across my way recently in the past year or so that I know you believe in as well, speaking of taking action and being really concrete with those steps, I got an email, and I can t remember exactly how this happened.
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You might have even made the intro for me now that I think about it.
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You had a trainer and you were saying, yeah, I m lifting weights, I m doing this, or we had had a phone call and you were like, sorry, I was at the gym.
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Somehow it came up that you were lifting weights and working out.
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And you had mentioned these kind of ridiculous results where I was like, wait a minute, how did you gain
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that much muscle in X amount of time, and you, I think, had introduced me to Matt Reynolds, who is an online trainer, and I ve talked about him on the show before, startingstrengthonlinecoaching.com is his website, we ll link that in the show notes, and I talked to him, and he was kind of like, you should do this, you should try this, you should do this, and I was like, well, I kind of got this other thing that I do, well, I do this and that, he nagged me a little bit,
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in a way that I usually don t need to be kind of nagged and bugged, and he showed me all the results, and he kept saying like, well, look at what Brett did today.
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Here s a picture of Brett.
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Doesn t he look better?
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Here s a picture of Brett from before, and he s kind of like, using you as this case study, and I thought, all right, all right, fine.
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I ll do a couple of your workouts, and I was just immediately, immediately hooked, and I ve been lifting weights since college.
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It s not new for me.
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but the fact that there was a different way to go about it, a plan, and somebody else who was doing it, you, who was getting results that I didn t actually think were possible, was in very much for me, me getting out of my own way, finding an online trainer that didn t require massive daily commitment to doing stuff, and getting this stuff done, and it changed the way that I do a lot of other things, which was very unexpected.
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I know that we talk a lot about how you do anything is how you do everything.
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We talk about that a lot at AOC, and I m sure you have similar concepts with Art of Manliness as well, but I will tell you the fact that I m able to go and do these specific workouts, see these results, feel the difference, has actually beneficially affected everything from my relationships to the way that I structure and do different things at work simply because
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I ve been able to create a system, see results in that system, and it s had beneficial spillover in other areas of my life.
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So barbell training, that has transformed my life significantly.
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Been working with Matt for over a year now.
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And like you, yeah, I ve been lifting weights since high school.
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I played football in high school, I did barbell training in high school, and then I stopped because I got on this like, I need to be,
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ripped and jacked, right?
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And like have six-pack abs and like have muscle definition and look sexy.
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And I started doing all these, you know, HIIT exercises and a lot of bicep curls and bodybuilder type stuff.
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And I never really made much progress.
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And I think there s a lot of guys who are out there the same way.
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Like they re just going to the gym and they re exercising because they know they need to exercise.
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What Matt and Mark Rippetoe, who developed starting strength, they re wanting people to train.
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And there s a difference between training and exercising.
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Exercising is just moving your body.
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Training is having a program where you progressively get stronger.
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Starting strength, that s the whole premise of it.
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You do these basic barbell lifts, they re compound movements, squat, bench press, shoulder press, deadlift, and power clean.
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And each workout, you re going to add a little bit more
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weight.
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Usually it s just five pounds every workout.
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And then you do that workout, you add five more pounds, next workout.
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And little by little, you re getting stronger and stronger and stronger.
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And then in, you know, six months time, you re squatting 1.5 times your body weight or two times your body weight, just something you probably never thought you d be able to do.
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But that s a great example of getting outside of your head, right?
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Like, whenever I lift weights, like I just imagine like I am battling gravity right now.
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That s what you re doing when you lift weights.
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You re battling gravity.
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And if you want to get outside of your head, that s like the best way.
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It s like go fight gravity for about an hour.
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I m dead lifting 500 pounds, squatting 420 pounds, shoulder pressing 200 pounds, about to bench press 300 pounds.
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I m going to hit that in a few weeks.
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And yeah, I went from 185 pounds and now I m 216 pounds in over a year.
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Like you said, it transfers over to other areas of your life, because with barbell training, you see what incremental progression can do.
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Just adding five pounds to each workout adds up little by little.
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That applies to other things in life, whether it s your job, your finances, your relationship skills.
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Just incremental improvements over time, you re gonna be phenomenally better than you were a year ago.
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So that s one of the things I love about strength training, because it just gives you that, it lets you see firsthand
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what happens whenever you just make small incremental improvements.
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One topic that s been not necessarily trendy, but very, very salient recently especially, and I feel like it s almost the subtext of a lot of the things we re seeing in the news and a lot of the things we re seeing from left and right and in politics and just pretty much every area of our lives, man or woman for that matter, is the concept of resilience.
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And you ve discussed this a lot at Art of Manliness.
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These were articles I read from you, at least the first editions,
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I m talking about seven plus years ago, and I still remember them quite well, because the concept of resilience alongside things like grit are strong determinators of what makes somebody successful in every area of their life.
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And I would love to explore the concept of resilience, especially as you see it related to your concept of manliness that we discussed previously.
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Right.
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So yeah, resilience.
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I wrote about this extensively back in 2010.
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And it s been a topic that I ve just been thinking about a lot because it s something I ve struggled with for most of my life.
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You know, for example, when I was in law school, and you probably can relate to this Jordan, after I finished my finals, I would, you know, I initially felt, you know, really comfortable that I did well.
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But then I would get home and I d start thinking about the exams in detail and remembering questions that I missed or issues that I might have failed to see.
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And then
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My confidence would just quickly evaporate.
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And then I would start thinking about these worst case scenarios that, oh my gosh, am I going to get a C or D on this exam?
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Or I might even fail the test.
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And because I made a C on this test, I m not going to be able to make a law review.
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And then because I don t get law review, then I m not going to be able to get that awesome law job after I graduate.
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So it just started catastrophizing.
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I just became this unresilient,
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weirdo, like just moping for like a few weeks.
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And I get my grades back and they re perfectly fine.
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So yeah, it s something I ve been struggling with and something I ve been working on.
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And so you got to start like, what is resilience?
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There s two ways to look at resilience.
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The first way is just seeing resilience as this reactive quality, that you re able to bounce back from setbacks, failures, crises, pain, whatever quickly, right?
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You re able to experience that, okay,
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It sucks, but then you get back into the game and start chugging along again.
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That s the common way that people view resilience, and it s super important.
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But I think it s also important to think of resilience as an active quality.
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It s an ability to be proactive in your life.
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It s having the strength, the grit.
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as you said earlier, to go and take risks, take on challenges, because you re not afraid to fail.
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You understand there s gonna be failure, but you have the resilience to withstand it and move ahead.
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So yeah, I mean, I think if you wanna thrive and survive in this world, you have to develop that resilience.
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You can t let setbacks get behind you.
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You can t let even petty annoyances get under your skin.
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You have to be resilient to them so you can continue to push forward.
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It seems like a lot of resilience from a lot of those that speak about it is not just building resilience up in your brain, your mind, your body, but also getting rid of faulty programming.
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You talk about the concept of me always everything as a style of thinking and how that s damaging to resilience.
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I d love to deconstruct that a little bit.
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Yes, so me always everything thinking is something that happens that unresilient people do all the time.
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It s a default way of thinking.
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Whenever something happens, they think, well, this thing, that bad thing that happened, it s completely my fault.
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That s the me.
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The always thing is, well, this always happens.
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Like this always happens to me, right?
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That s the always part.
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And the everything s as well.
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This is terrible and everything is terrible.
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That s the everything part.
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And it s faulty thinking because it s very emotional thinking for starters.
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But once you start using your brain, like your prefrontal cortex, and start questioning these statements that you might be making or this thinking that you re doing, you start realizing it s a bunch of bunk, right?
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So, you know, something bad happens.
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Say a girl dumps you.
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You might say, well, I m just a loser.
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Here it happens.
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I m just ugly.
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I m not charming.
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I m not smart.
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It s just me. 
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Well, it s probably not just you.
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I mean, there s a lot of reasons why a girl might dump you, right?
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And it s not because of you.
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Maybe she s got something else going on in her life.
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It s not you, but like, she s just not interested in you.
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She has other interests or other tastes in men.
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So it has nothing to do with you.
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It s just like, you re not for her.
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That s the me part of that.
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Or say if a girl dumps you and you go, well, man, this always happens to me.
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I m always getting dumb.
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Well, you gotta step back and say, well, is that really true?
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And you might look back and say, no, there were a few instances where I had a really long-term relationship with women, but I was the one that ended it because whatever reason.
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So you can say that always statement is false.
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With the everything, you might just say, whoa, jeez, I got laid off from my job and everything is terrible.
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Well, is everything really terrible?
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Probably not.
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Your family life s pretty good.
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You ve got something else good going on in your life.
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Yeah, it sucks you lost your job.
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But not everything is terrible in your life.
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The reason why you have to nip that in the bud, that sort of me always everything thinking right away, because it can just lead you to a really dark place where you just sort of stew and you stop taking proactive measures to improve your situation.
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And the thing that is terrible, right, because you just waste all this energy
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thinking about and wallowing in the frustration that this one single event has happened, when you could be taking steps to improve the situation.
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So yeah, whenever you have that me always everything thinking, it s really hard to do.
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Like I said, it s very emotional.
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but you have to stop yourself and question those assumptions you re making and say, is it really me?
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Does this always happen?
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Is everything always terrible?
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And say, is everything really bad in my life?
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More often than not, you re gonna find the answer to all those questions are no, it s not true.
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So this is about looking at the situation that you re in and then actually making the mental exercise to find counterexamples to me, always, everything, in order to basically stop yourself from continuing to swirl the drain.
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Like you said, it keeps you inside of your head, that thinking, instead of taking action.
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I think learning to find evidence contrary to certain patterns of thinking that I find nonproductive, along with taking action, such as, okay, maybe this relationship didn t work out, counter example to me, always everything, and then taking some action, like going to choose a different type of exercise, learning how to cook something, or taking a language course and learning a new skill, helps break out of the orbit of whatever s pulling you in.
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It s kind of like adding some rocket fuel by taking action and also making sure that you break the shackles by questioning what it is that is holding you down, with me always everything.
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And I think that s really important because for a lot of us, it s very easy to find that evidence of me always everything from confirmation bias, selection bias, whatever we re looking at, and then
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continue to automatically find evidence that those things are true, which leads to a belief system and pattern of belief that you actually can t break out of it.
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And that s obviously really terrible for resilience, it s really terrible for grit, it s really terrible for self-esteem and self-worth, and it leads to a massive downward spiral that obviously leads to things like depression and beyond.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, yeah, exactly.
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What you re talking about there, that sort of idea that you just don t take any action at all, there s actually a name for it.
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It s called learned helplessness.
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There was a study done by Dr. Martin Siegelman back in the 60s, where he showed how animals can develop this learned helplessness, but even humans can.
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What he did is he took like three groups of dogs, and the first groups of dogs were given electric shocks.
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but these dogs are able to press a panel with their nose to make the shock stop, right?
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The second group of dogs were given the shocks as well, but they had no recourse to make them stop.
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They couldn t do anything to make them stop.
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and they received no shocks.
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And so the first and third group dogs, and these groups of dogs, they recovered well from the experiment.
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The third group of dogs obviously didn t get shocks, they were fine.
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The first group of dogs were fine, because there was something they could do to stop the shocking.
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But the second dogs, what ended up happening with them, because they couldn t stop the shocking, they actually just stopped trying to do anything at all.
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Even when there was, they even took the second group of dogs and gave them the option to stop the shock,
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later on, and like the dogs didn t even try, because they learned how to be helpless.
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And so that s what me always everything thinking does is that it trains your brain to think, there s nothing I can do to change my situation.
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So yeah, that s why it s so, so important to nip that in the bud quickly, or you ll develop this learned helplessness where you just think I can t do anything, when the reality is, there are things that are within your control that you can do to change and improve your situation.
4
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There s a lot we can talk about.
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You have a lot of really great content on there.
4
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Depression, managing depression, all the way to giving yourself a straight razor shave or giving one to someone else.
4
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There s tons and tons of content on there.
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How long does it take you, by the way, to research and write some of these articles?
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I m just curious.
4
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It depends on the article.
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Some of our more meatier topics, it ll take months to research and write.
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Like there s some topics where I ve been sitting on for a year, sort of reading and outlining and then I finally get around to writing it after a year of sort of stewing on it.
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Yeah, I mean, we spend a lot of time on this stuff because we really want to provide as much value as we can to people.
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Brett, thank you so much, man, for coming on and discussing this stuff.
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I m sure we ll have more from you in the future as well.
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Hey, thanks a lot, Jordan.
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Great big thank you to Brett McKay.
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He is, of course, at theartofmanliness.com.
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We ll have that linked up in the show notes.
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And if you like this, don t forget to thank Brett on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well.
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Remember, you can tap your phone screen or whatever screen you re using to listen to this, hopefully.
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and the show notes should pop right up.
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I m also on Twitter.
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I post a lot of stuff that never makes it to the show.
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Funny stuff, engagement with you as fans, and of course, articles and insights that I don t have time to air here.
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Producer Jason and I are both on there, at The Art of Charm, and you re what, JPDef, J-P-D-E-F.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes.
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Our boot camps, our live programs that we teach in L.A., bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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Join thousands of other guys who ve been through the program, who will become your brothers in arms, network for life,
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Guys all around the world, we ve had a lot of people travel together, couch surf, even get jobs through that network.
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It s by far and away the program, the live program, my favorite part of running AOC.
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It s just a frickin  amazing experience, not only for us teaching, but of course, well mostly, for y all coming through the program.
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Remember, we do sell out a few months in advance, so if you re thinking about it, you re curious about it, get in touch with us.
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We ll get some info to you so you can plan ahead.
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You can just email me, jordanattheartofcharm.com, or you can go to the website bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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We also have an AOC challenge going on.
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Theartofcharm.com slash challenge will send you missions and little exercises to develop your network, to develop your connection skills.
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We send you videos with drills and exercises, and we ll send you the toolbox that I mentioned earlier in the show that includes a lot of practical stuff on reading body language, nonverbal communication, the science of attraction, negotiation techniques, networking, influence strategies, mentorship, persuasion,
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And all that stuff that we teach here at The Art of Charm, that s theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or text the word charmed to the number 33444.
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That s right, you just text 33444, you type the word charmed, and boom, you re in it.
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For full show notes for this and all previous episodes, head over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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This episode of AOC was produced by Jason DeFillippo.
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Jason Sanderson, he s our audio engineer and the editor, and the show notes on the website are by Robert Fogarty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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Word of mouth really is everything, so stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.