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It s just like we don t have time.
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It s just really painful.
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We don t have time to train that person up and they just slow us down.
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We d rather pay someone.
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We want to work with somebody or bring someone into the team that knows what s going on and that has a self-starter kind of attitude and has the skills to do things.
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We want people that are skilled.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger, and today I m talking with my good friend Nathan Chan from Founder Magazine.
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You should listen to this episode if you want to learn how to reach out to influencers and hard-to-reach people, either for your business or inside your own industry for the sake of your career.
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how to discover email addresses, phone numbers, and contact information for gatekeepers, people who deal in direct access to the high-level folks you want to reach, and if you want to know exactly what to say when you reach out, and last but not least, how to use specific tools and systems to automate follow-up attempts, reach people when they re most likely to see your email and reply, and make sure none of your efforts get lost in the shuffle.
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There s a whole lot more than this, so enjoy this really tactical episode here with my good friend Nathan Chan.
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By the way, if you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the Art of Charm toolbox, where we ll discuss things like body language, nonverbal communication, persuasion, negotiation, mentorship, networking, everything else we teach here at the Art of Charm.
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If you re in the United States, you can text charmed, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
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Everywhere else, you can just go to theartofcharm.com.
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Also, at theartofcharm.com slash podcast, you can find the full show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show.
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Alright, here s Nathan Chan.
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Nathan, thanks for coming on, man.
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And one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you today is because, well, not only have you started a successful magazine, in an era where magazine s almost a dirty word, but you ve got a really impressive roster of people that you ve interviewed for this thing.
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Richard Branson, Ariana Huffington, Tony Robbins, and tons more folks on the covers.
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And that s just the covers.
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I know how hard it is to get people to grant you an interview.
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Story of my life.
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and you ve done a really, really good job with it.
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So a lot of the people listening right now, even if they re not trying to start a magazine, are looking to expand their business, or reach out to somebody higher on the corporate ladder than them at work, or switch careers, and I think all of these skill sets of reaching out to people that are purposely hard to reach is, it s a unique skill set, and I think we ve talked about it a lot here on The Art of Charm in the past, however, you ve just crushed it.
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So we want your secrets.
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Awesome, well look, thank you so much for having me, Jordan.
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It s an absolute honor and pleasure to be here.
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Massive fan of what you do.
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You re a rock star, man.
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You crush it, dude.
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Now I m starting to get the reason why they, you just use flattery and it works every time.
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Got it, thanks for coming on.
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I m just speaking from the heart, dude.
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So just give it to us straight.
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I mean, you ve got, like I said, Richard Branson, Ariana Huffington, Tony Robbins, and a bunch of other folks.
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What s the first thing you do?
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I mean, you re obviously selecting people based on the fact that they are high profile.
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That s the name of the game in media, especially magazines and stuff like that.
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How do you first reach out to these folks?
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I mean, is this straight up cold emailing or using warm introductions?
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What s the first step for you?
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Yeah, look, it s a combination of a few different things, right?
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Depending on where that person is at, the first thing that I always do is we always look for a mutually beneficial exchange in value.
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So I m always looking for people to interview that are looking to do interviews most of the time.
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So if they have book launches or they have a product launch or something that s coming out, that s the first piece of the puzzle.
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Then the next piece of the puzzle
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is we need to find the gatekeeper.
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Now, finding that gatekeeper, the go-to person that filters in between all the noise because these people get hit up and want their time flat out, that s the next piece of the puzzle.
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And whether it s through a cold email, whether it s through an introduction from someone that I might know, or whether it s even through a phone call.
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I think phone calls are so underrated in today s age where just people are just swamped with emails.
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So the first thing you d mention was they re looking for press and media, and that might seem, well, of course, people looking for press and media are gonna grant interviews, but here s the problem.
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The people that we often really wanna get on our show or in our platform, on our blog, or even just the CEO of our company if we work for a corporation, when they re looking for press and media, they re probably not necessarily looking for Joe Blow blogger or somebody with an Instagram account or a podcast.
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or anything like that, and they might not even be looking to connect with somebody who s several rungs beneath them on the totem pole of foreign corporate world here.
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So you re looking for timeliness.
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It s not just timeliness, I understand that, but let s break that down.
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How are you finding out?
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whether or not it s timely for that person.
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Because I would imagine that by the time you read about Arianna Huffington s new book in Slate or on a blog or something like that, you ve missed the window, right?
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Because other press is already releasing their piece, which means they found out about it two months ago or whatever, and you re so late to the party.
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Do you have some kind of tricks that you re looking for?
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Are you looking at an upcoming book catalog or something that most people don t have?
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What are you looking at to establish timeliness and get in early?
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Yeah.
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So it s a couple of things.
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If I know that person and I m deep within the space, then I know that something s coming.
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And another good one is the Amazon coming soon list on books under any category.
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Because what happens is if someone s about to launch a book, you can submit to Amazon and it ll be in the coming soon.
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That s killer, man.
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If you regularly look through that every few months, you ll see all the books that are coming.
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that can be really, really game-changing.
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And also, we ve found a lot of success with having really, really good relationships with PR companies.
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So we have a lot of PR companies that represent all sorts of tech startups and all sorts of big companies or these big-time rock star influencers in our space, and we make them look good.
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So that s a few of the ways that we find those people.
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What do you mean by that?
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You mean being really responsive, not making them play catch up, eight emails to get ahold of you, and just giving them kind of a quick win, somebody who s easy to work with?
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Yeah, 100%.
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So, you know, a lot of these PR companies, they re getting paid, you know, massive PR budgets.
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And if we can feature people on the front cover of a magazine, or feature them on our podcast, or blog post,
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Any kind of leverage, we have a column on Huffington Post or entrepreneur.com, so I m always looking to make this an absolute no-brainer for people.
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PR companies are a great one.
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We have a good relationship, and we get back to them straight away, and we have some good channels for them to make them look good.
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Yeah, you know, this makes sense because what I ve found is I get tons of PR pitches in my inbox and most of them are totally irrelevant.
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So if something comes through and it is relevant, I feel like if you re getting hundreds and hundreds of these, they might all go into a separate folder.
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It s really easy to miss an easy opportunity like that.
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But I think for most people listening, they don t have PR people hitting their inbox constantly and pitching them and coming to them.
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They have to go out and seek this stuff out.
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So how did you get started
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getting PR people sending you opportunities because I think what a lot of folks don t realize, because this was news for me as well, is that PR people will happily add you to their email list no matter what size your outlet, no matter what you re doing.
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PR people benefit from having more resources and outlets at their disposal.
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They re not necessarily vetting, well, you re not the New York Times, so buzz off.
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They re looking for pretty much everybody who can give them any kind of PR because it s a quantity situation for most of them.
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Yeah, 100%.
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Dude, so I started the magazine three and a half years ago, didn t know anything about publishing, didn t have any connections in the space, and man, I remember no one would get back to me.
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It was so extremely tough.
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In fact, for the first issue of the magazine, the front cover,
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No one would get back to me.
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I had a stock image for the front cover.
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It was super embarrassing.
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It was rough, dude.
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One of my favorite quotes by the founder of LinkedIn is, if you re not embarrassed by the first version of your product, you ve launched too late.
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And for me, I was super embarrassed.
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And yeah, to be honest, it was really, really rough.
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But what happened was, I got a good break, which allowed us to have some social proof in the early days, which was, I got an interview with Richard Branson for issue number eight.
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So it took about four months to do that one, and then from there, it made things a little easier.
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Yeah, but you didn t just get lucky and Richard Branson didn t knock on your door and go, look man, when are you gonna interview me?
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I mean, you had to work for that, right?
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You had to work the angles for that.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, dude, a lot of hustle, man.
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A lot of hustle, a lot of phone calls.
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The biggest piece was contacting publishers.
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I think a lot of people don t get on the phone.
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If you know somebody s got a book, if you know somebody s got a book coming, one thing you can do is you can contact the publishers because they re always looking for press for their books.
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You get on the phone, get
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Get on the phone to someone at Random House.
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Get on the phone to someone at Simon & Schuster because there is somebody that handles that side of things, even if they don t have a new book that s coming out.
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Sooner or later, I found myself on the phone with the head of PR at Virgin, and I just pitched her, man.
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I was all over the place.
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I was super nervous.
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I ll never forget.
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She was just like, how long have you been around for?
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I was just like, oh, about four months.
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She s like, oh, wow.
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You guys are really new.
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And I was like, yeah.
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And she s like, look, do me a favor.
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Uh, shoot me an email.
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I promise that I ll get back to you, but please understand we get like 10 of these requests every day.
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That s it.
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Yep.
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I m surprised they don t get more.
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Seriously.
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I m surprised they don t get more.
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Yeah.
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I don t know.
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That s what she said.
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And yeah, so I just pitched and I played on the fact that his first business venture was actually a student magazine.
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Yeah.
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They actually agreed.
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to doing something.
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It was just an email interview and we took that and ran with it and put him on the front cover of issue number eight and talked to him about turning your ideas into reality.
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It was a really good piece.
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Then from there, things got a little more easier, but still to this day, a lot of people
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don t get back to us, so there s a whole combination of things that we re doing around follow-up, around finding the gatekeeper s emails, around how to pitch them, and making a no-brainer.
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Yeah, you reached out to Richard Branson s people, but you didn t just email them out of nowhere and say, hi, can you be on our magazine?
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You did your homework, right?
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You knew that his first business venture was a student magazine.
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You didn t just give some sort of standard thing like, we d love to have you come on, because you re Richard Branson.
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found something that s gonna resonate with him, that signaled that you were paying attention and that you targeted him specifically because you re interested in that particular story, a little heartstring tug maybe, not just, hi, I sent this email out to all of the A-list celebrities I could find on the Forbes list or whatever, and I would like to make a magazine out of you guys so I don t have to do any other research.
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There was a lot going on, and it seems like when you spoke with
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his gatekeeper, not only did you find appropriate contact information for the right person, but you got them to like and appreciate you enough to, one, reply, and then two, from the sound of it, advocate for you at least a little bit, because what a lot of folks do is they ll get a standard PR reply that s like, got it, we ll be in touch, and they re like, great, and then they follow up eight times with a form email, never hear back, and then go, oh, this is too hard, right?
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Because I know that, because that s what I,
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used to do for a really, really long time, and it didn t work for squat.
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It was complete crap, that process.
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SPEAKER_01
So you re doing it completely differently, what seems like might be obvious for some, but you really did put in your homework and take your time and probably pestered them just enough to where they weren t annoyed but actually took action, and that s a balance that I think we should discuss.
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Yeah, that s a really good point.
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SPEAKER_00
To Richard Branson s PR person, I did make a couple of phone calls and leave a couple of voicemails over a series of a couple of weeks, but no, it wasn t hassling every day.
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SPEAKER_00
There is a fine balance, I agree.
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SPEAKER_01
How did you find the contact information initially for his gatekeeper, and how do you normally go about even finding who to contact in the first place for some of these folks?
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s not as simple as tweeting at them a lot of the time, and sometimes I m sure it is, but most of the time, I m imagining you can t just knock on the front door because everyone s doing that and they re not even there, right?
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SPEAKER_01
They ve got their strongest collection of gatekeepers are gonna be right in the front where they re getting hammered with requests, right?
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SPEAKER_01
Their support inbox, their 1-800 number, stuff like that s obviously not gonna work.
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Have you found any kind of secret-ish ways to get in touch with the right people and find the right people and get them to respond?
1
SPEAKER_00
So we do a lot of cold email and a lot of people say not to write long emails, but our emails are reasonably long.
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And I just say things like in the subject line, you know, we want to feature X person on the front cover of this magazine.
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And then we go through and we ve got this template where it s just, we just make it an absolute no brainer.
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We can do this, we can do this, we can do that.
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SPEAKER_00
and people tend to write back.
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SPEAKER_00
In particular with the Richard Branson piece, I wasn t hassling badly, but I was persistent enough that they would at least get back to me.
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SPEAKER_00
In regards to getting that person s contact, I made a couple of calls to Random House and I said, I m a magazine publisher, I want to get in touch with Richard Branson s PR person who s the right person to speak to.
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They ended up just showing me the way.
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If you re nice to somebody and you show you re serious, I think that s a good piece too.
1
SPEAKER_00
Always when you want to get someone s time, whether it s for an interview or whether it s just to catch up or whether you re looking for a mentor or anything of the sort or just advice from someone, I think a big piece of the puzzle also
1
SPEAKER_00
is that it s not about you, it s about them.
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SPEAKER_00
And if you make it in a way that, you pitch it in a way that, okay, we re gonna do this, we re serious, we re a magazine, or I ve got this business, or I m doing this, and this is how I can help you, people are a lot more receptive as well.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s really a good point.
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SPEAKER_01
I think it sounds so obvious, like, well, Jordan, this one sucks.
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SPEAKER_01
I know to be nice to people.
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I know to make it about them.
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But let me tell you right now, as somebody who spent the 45 minutes or so before this going through some of my inbox to look for something else and looking at pitches coming in and just marking them as red, which is what happens, there were seven or so pitches in there over the past couple of days that had come in.
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Every single one of them was, hi, I m doing this self-published book and I would like to interview you.
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SPEAKER_01
I really want to interview you for this.
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SPEAKER_01
Will you come on my podcast and help me launch it?
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SPEAKER_01
Can I talk to you about something podcast-related?
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SPEAKER_01
And there were a lot of people, and this is even worse somehow, they just wanted to jump on the phone and I,
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just said, what can I do for you?
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And they said, well, I ll tell you when you get on the phone.
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And it reminded me of somebody dodging a question, like who s a kid, you know, like I don t want to tell you, but I ll tell you if you give me a quarter.
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SPEAKER_01
It s a really weird position for somebody to be in.
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The only way that s appropriate for somebody who s busy to handle that is to either completely ignore it or say no.
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And so there s a lot of people out there that mean well, and I m not,
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saying these people are bad folks or anything.
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They re probably really great folks.
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I just think that any time you put somebody in an awkward position where they have to ignore you slash say no, that is a behavior that s only going to reinforce itself because we don t want to then renege on that or go back on that and then train you that all you have to do is pester us or all you have to do is keep asking, right?
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SPEAKER_01
So it s detrimental to your own cause to not look at this as
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SPEAKER_01
How do I help you?
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SPEAKER_01
A lot of folks, I think, also try to veil what s in it for me with, I m helping you by spending an hour of your time interviewing you for a blog that hasn t launched yet and may never see the light of day.
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SPEAKER_01
And for them, that sounds like a value proposition that s actually fair because look, I m gonna put you on my blog and I m gonna promote it and I envision a lot of success for myself.
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SPEAKER_01
But what that looks like, I think, for a lot of us, and obviously folks like Richard Branson s position, there s a 50-50 chance, or probably even greater, that no one will ever see this and you want to talk to me for an hour, which is actually quite a valuable piece of time that could be spent doing pretty much anything else.
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SPEAKER_00
Does that make sense?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, 100%.
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SPEAKER_00
I think we get a lot of people that want to intern for us and they say,
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SPEAKER_00
I ll work for free.
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SPEAKER_00
This is what I ll do because I want to get as much experience from you guys as possible.
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SPEAKER_00
But the thing is, right, it takes a tremendous amount of time to train that person up, mentor them, and all sorts of things.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s actually not even a value prop for us to have an intern that works for us for free anymore.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, why is that?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because it seems like an awesome thing to have, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, whoa, I m going to get someone working here for free.
1
SPEAKER_01
I get that all the time as well.
1
SPEAKER_01
Why don t you tell us why that s not a good deal?
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SPEAKER_01
Because there s a ton of folks listening who just went, oh crap, really?
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SPEAKER_01
Because that was their game plan.
1
SPEAKER_01
for getting a job at Dropbox, or getting a job at Apple, or getting a job with a small business, and it s not a poor line of thought, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
If I m looking to get in at the ground floor of a company, offering to work for free seems on its face like a really great idea.
1
SPEAKER_01
Why is it not that?
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SPEAKER_00
Because most of the time, it s still about that person, because they re there,
1
SPEAKER_00
And we ve experienced this and it s been really, really painful.
1
SPEAKER_00
They re there.
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SPEAKER_00
We have to show them the rope, show them what to do.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it s just like we don t have time.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like it s just really painful.
1
SPEAKER_00
We don t have time to train that person up and they just slow us down.
1
SPEAKER_00
We d rather pay someone.
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SPEAKER_00
We want to work with somebody or bring someone into the team that knows what s going on and that has
1
SPEAKER_00
you know, a self-starter kind of attitude and have the skills to do things.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, we want people that are skilled.
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SPEAKER_00
I think it just slows us down and it s no advantage to us.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you know, that s an interesting point.
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SPEAKER_01
What most people don t think about is the cost of time and management and training.
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SPEAKER_01
And also the fact that if you hire somebody for free, you re taking the risk that they actually do something that s beneficial for the company and valuable, and the odds of doing that without any training or any prior vetting are really low.
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SPEAKER_01
So even though it might not cost us salary, I would gladly pay a fair salary for somebody who can do the work with very
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SPEAKER_02
very minimal oversight and very minimal training, at least to get the ball rolling.
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SPEAKER_02
Of course, we re always developing our employees at the Art of Charm, as I m sure you do as well.
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SPEAKER_02
But the insight here is that the cost of labor is generally never the hurdle that we re looking to overcome and that busy people are looking to overcome, right?
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SPEAKER_02
It s always gonna be skills over the cost of the labor.
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SPEAKER_02
So somebody who s gonna make 25 bucks an hour, you might be saving them a couple thousand bucks a month, but truth be told, if they ve gotta spend weeks and weeks with you getting you up to the point where a regular assistant or virtual assistant online could start after a day or two, you re gonna end up with a big problem.
2
SPEAKER_02
So what s another way to go about this?
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SPEAKER_02
It sounds like developing a useful skill and then being able to showcase that skill would be much more useful.
2
SPEAKER_03
I think the best way is to actually self-educate.
2
SPEAKER_03
You don t have to be a master, but be good at something that you have to offer and that you can see that that person has to offer.
2
SPEAKER_03
So for example, somebody comes to me and they re like, oh, you guys aren t doing much on Pinterest.
2
SPEAKER_03
I ve played around and I ve done X. I can just do it for you guys for free.
2
SPEAKER_03
Would this help you?
2
SPEAKER_03
That s a no-brainer, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Over the last 17 years, we have launched our fair share of online courses, coaching programs, and finding the right platform has always been a challenge.
2
SPEAKER_01
They say if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life.
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SPEAKER_01
But if you re an entrepreneur, you know the hard work that comes with it.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s why you need Kajabi.
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Kajabi makes it easy to run your entire online business from one platform so you can focus on what you love.
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Creating.
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All right, back to the show.
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Do you ask them to actually do it though?
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Because a lot of people might say, I m a Photoshop expert.
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And you re like, great, we need you to redesign the entire template for WordPress.
2
SPEAKER_02
And they go, all right, I got to go to YouTube.
2
SPEAKER_02
And they spend three days or five days on YouTube really hoping that you don t notice that they just totally lied to you.
2
SPEAKER_02
Does that ever happen to you guys?
2
SPEAKER_02
No, not really.
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SPEAKER_02
We don t.
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SPEAKER_02
It will.
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SPEAKER_02
It will happen to you.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03
We get a lot of people that want to work for free.
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SPEAKER_03
I say no to them always.
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We actually caved about six months ago and it was a disaster.
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That s maybe why, that s why it s on my mind.
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It was a disaster.
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SPEAKER_03
Yeah, it never seems to work for us.
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SPEAKER_02
How did it fail?
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Because there s still somebody going, no, no, no, but I would totally rock it.
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SPEAKER_02
This is going to work for me.
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SPEAKER_03
Look, this person was a massive fan of the brand that was super, super persistent.
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SPEAKER_03
I thought they had a really, really good attitude and hustle.
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SPEAKER_03
I was super clear, like they had a skill, they did have a skill that I was impressed with.
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SPEAKER_03
So we let them in.
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I was really clear, we can work with this for six weeks, you know, a couple of days a week.
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SPEAKER_03
I don t want you to slow us down.
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SPEAKER_03
What ended up happening was this person, all they did was just disrupt the whole team, ask a lot of questions.
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SPEAKER_03
Fundamentally, it was still about them.
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SPEAKER_03
In the end, the work that they did wasn t very good.
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SPEAKER_03
They didn t really work very hard or go above and beyond.
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SPEAKER_03
They just did their five hours or whatever.
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SPEAKER_03
Of course, bought them lunch and stuff and wanted to take the time to help, but it just
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It was too much.
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SPEAKER_03
Yeah, it was just a really, really bad outcome.
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SPEAKER_02
And what people need to realize when they re looking for things like this, whenever you re looking to give the value and give the free offer to someone, you have to realize that you re never really giving them the value.
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more value than you re taking, or very rarely, but you should seek to do that, right?
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SPEAKER_02
So, if you do wanna work for someone for free, you need to be very skilled in what they need, you need to do the project for them, or at least do as much as you can, and I ll give an example that I ve given on the show before, but haven t given in a long time.
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There was a kid, literally, a long time ago, maybe three, four years ago now, which is a long time in internet land, and his name is Victor, probably still listens to the show, and the way that he started working here at the Art of Charm,
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he s since moved on to own multiple businesses of his own, is he said, hey, I d like to work for you.
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And I said, great, sorry, not looking for anything.
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And he said, then a month later, how can I help you?
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And I said, I don t know.
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And then a few months later, how can I help you?
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And I said, you should be able to figure that out.
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It s not my job to figure it out.
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I was just really blunt, like I am normally on the show.
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I d like to think I was more polite than that, but that s the way I remember it.
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And a few months or a few weeks later, he said, and I can t even remember what it was now,
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but let s imagine that it was maybe like my jordanharbinger.com website or something like that.
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And he said, I noticed you don t have this.
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Would you like me to make it for you?
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Here s what I think I can make it look like using really basic WordPress templates, some of your Facebook profile photos from the past, as well as some of the media and press links on theartofcharm.com.
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Would you like me to throw something like that together and it would look like this?
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And it was just a Word document with the kind of super basic mock-up and I thought,
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this person has thought about it, they re gonna be able to figure out how to use Squarespace or whatever, and I let him go ahead and do it, and sure enough, it worked, it was timely, it worked really well, the communication was there, and I thought, oh, okay.
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So I started giving him other random assignments, which he did, and he ended up getting paid work as a result because I started giving him bigger and bigger things, up to the point at which it didn t make sense for him to do it for free anymore, and he d already proven himself able to handle those kind of projects.
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SPEAKER_02
So it really has to be, like you said, a complete no-brainer to the point where they ve already done most of the work, it wouldn t even make any sense to bring somebody else on board to do the basic, yet not completely brainless thing that they wanted to do for you, right?
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SPEAKER_02
It can t just be, hey, I noticed some typos on your website, you want me to correct them?
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That s not enough, it just says you re detail-oriented, but it s not enough to get you in the game.
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SPEAKER_02
Creating a project that might help, even if they don t end up using it, just doing the basics of that will go so much further than telling them or telling us what you think you can do.
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We wanna see your skills in action and basically just be able to give you the keys and say, alright, you got it, go ahead and do it, and then you can rock our socks off and show exactly
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what you can do.
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SPEAKER_03
Yeah, that s it, man.
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It s all about that rapport building, getting that cut through, getting that quick win, then it s a no-brainer.
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SPEAKER_02
Right, not just rapport though, but trust, right?
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Because I might like you, but I don t really care about that if you re gonna work here.
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I need to trust you to be able to do your job well, and then I will probably like you as a result of that.
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We don t have to just get along, or I don t have to just think you re funny, or something like that.
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It always helps, but it s so much better if I can trust you to do it.
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I think it s more important to be trusted than liked, especially in business.
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But we digress a little bit.
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Hopefully that was helpful to some of the, especially the fresh college grads out there who are looking for internships and things like that.
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It tends to be that season, especially as springtime approaches.
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SPEAKER_02
But we ve already talked about, okay, getting the gatekeeper s information.
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really granular on this.
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How do you find the right person to talk to, especially if you re doing cold emails?
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Warm intros, that goes without saying, you re getting introduced to the person that you re talking to.
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SPEAKER_02
But if you want to find somebody s assistant or the right person, how are you doing this?
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Yeah, we use a few different tools.
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Email Hunter s a good one.
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Clearbit is a good one as well.
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So you can type in the company s domain, so whatever their website is, the at their domain, and you can find a whole ton of different emails that you can go cold on.
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SPEAKER_03
Also, another good one is LinkedIn.
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I found that to be really, really powerful.
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You generally want to find that company s or that person s PR.
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SPEAKER_03
or alternatively their assistants, that they re usually the gatekeepers, the PR person or the assistant.
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SPEAKER_00
So LinkedIn is a good one, email Hunter or Clearbit.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s generally how I m getting that person s details or just on the contact form of their website.
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SPEAKER_00
Contact forms of a website works as well.
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I try all different avenues, Jordan.
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I m relentless, man.
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SPEAKER_01
What are you searching for on websites like Email Hunter?
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SPEAKER_01
I m gonna go there now and take a look at this because are you using some kind of search terms for this or are you just generally getting a massive list of the whole company and often getting lucky finding the right person?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so with email hunter, let s say we want to interview the founder of HubSpot.
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SPEAKER_00
I wouldn t know if we type in HubSpot.com, there s thousands of employees, right?
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SPEAKER_00
So what you want to do is actually, I would just go to Google and I type in HubSpot PR
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LinkedIn.
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And then from there, I ve got a couple of names already.
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I can see some people that work in the PR team at HubSpot.
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I d use email hunter to get that person s email.
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SPEAKER_00
It might be in LinkedIn or it might be in Clearbit.
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SPEAKER_00
Clearbit s a really powerful tool as well.
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SPEAKER_00
You can use that for searching people s emails as well.
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SPEAKER_00
So yeah, that s where I would start.
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SPEAKER_01
So what if I want to look up something like Spotify?
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, when I search for Spotify in Email Hunter, 169 email addresses found.
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SPEAKER_01
That s really cool, and also really intimidating, because I don t want to email every single one of these people, because I feel like that could cause a major problem.
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SPEAKER_01
What do you think about that?
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SPEAKER_00
No, I agree.
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SPEAKER_00
You want to find the right person.
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SPEAKER_00
I use email hunter to find that right person s email, but I would use something like LinkedIn to find who the right person is.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, so do you get the email list from email hunter and then plug it into LinkedIn and sort of do a reverse lookup on some of these people?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
So I would have find the PR person generally.
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SPEAKER_00
So if I was looking to interview the founder of Spotify, I would just go to LinkedIn, type in
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SPEAKER_00
you know, PR person, Spotify, LinkedIn, and then, yeah, start looking through LinkedIn to trawl their database of finding who that PR person is, and then I d use email hunter to either guess that person s email, because I can see, you know, it s at first name, and then first letter of their last name, or, you know, first letter of their first name, and then their last name, or whatever that syntax whatever is, and I could probably guess their email from there,
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SPEAKER_00
Or I can find their exact email.
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SPEAKER_00
And then there s another tool that you can use called Reportative.
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SPEAKER_00
Have you heard of that?
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SPEAKER_00
Reportive, the Gmail plugin?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
So that s a killer way to find someone s contact details because what you do is
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SPEAKER_00
You know, email hunter will give you the format of what that email could be.
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SPEAKER_00
So you might not actually find their exact email in email hunter, but you know their name from LinkedIn.
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SPEAKER_00
LinkedIn will tell you if they are the PR person because they re going to have it in their profile.
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SPEAKER_00
Everyone has a LinkedIn account.
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SPEAKER_00
What you do is you can write in a whole different lot of variations of email if you re guessing it.
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SPEAKER_00
And for some reason with reportive, and I don t know why, but it s magical.
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SPEAKER_00
If you go in Gmail, you just hit write new email.
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SPEAKER_00
And if you put in all those,
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SPEAKER_00
potential email combinations if you hover over each one nine times out of ten if you hover over one of them and it shows like a person s profile like the Google plus or their face or something like that.
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SPEAKER_00
then you know that that email is their email.
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SPEAKER_00
I don t know why or how it works, but do you know what I m talking about?
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SPEAKER_01
I do.
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SPEAKER_01
I use that actually as well.
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SPEAKER_01
The reason I installed it is because it shows you a profile picture of the person s face that you re emailing.
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SPEAKER_01
And often that just, for me, just makes everything more human.
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SPEAKER_01
I find myself being a little bit more
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SPEAKER_01
I shouldn t say polite, but that s probably what I actually mean.
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SPEAKER_01
And I care more because I can see the person.
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SPEAKER_01
It s very humanizing.
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SPEAKER_01
And also, of course, I can see their social media and things like that.
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SPEAKER_01
So for me, that s a useful tool.
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SPEAKER_01
I ve had it for years and years.
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SPEAKER_01
And I just wanna give a hat tip to what you d mentioned with email hunter.
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SPEAKER_01
it shows you the email pattern.
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SPEAKER_01
So what this will do is scrape the web for every at Spotify.com email, and then it will say the email pattern is first name at Spotify.com, which is great because if you know the person s name is Daniel Eck is the founder, right?
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SPEAKER_01
You might have Daniel at Spotify.com, or if it s first dot last initial, you might have Daniel.e at Spotify.com.
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SPEAKER_01
And those tend to be right because
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SPEAKER_01
you know, corporations want to look organized.
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SPEAKER_01
So these things aren t a secret, right?
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SPEAKER_01
This isn t a top secret inbox where they don t want to be bothered most of the time.
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SPEAKER_01
What it is instead is simply they figure that if they re not publicly listed everywhere, you won t email them.
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SPEAKER_01
But I would say very few people are going to get annoyed that you looked them up.
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SPEAKER_01
It just seems like, you know,
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SPEAKER_01
You either got the address from somebody else, they ve spoken to you before, or you did your homework.
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SPEAKER_01
And that, for most people, is totally fine.
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SPEAKER_01
And I think that s extremely important.
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SPEAKER_01
And I know I ve guessed a ton of email addresses back in the day before this type of thing existed.
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SPEAKER_01
So this is a very useful tool, and it s hunter.io, by the way.
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SPEAKER_01
It s not emailhunter.com, which lags and sends you to a weird place if you re not lucky.
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SPEAKER_01
We ll link that in the show notes as well.
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SPEAKER_01
You guess it and you look it up on LinkedIn and you should install Reportive for Gmail if you do use Gmail.
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SPEAKER_01
What else are you doing once you find the address?
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SPEAKER_01
What does your initial outreach look like?
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SPEAKER_00
So I ve got a really, really good email template that I ve tried and tested.
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SPEAKER_00
Subject headline is something strong around, you know, magazine, front cover, just those two words, front cover of magazine.
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SPEAKER_00
tend to do really, really well.
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SPEAKER_00
You can test all kinds of headlines.
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SPEAKER_00
A really good one, a really, really good headline, a subject headline that a lot of people always get back to me on, is I insert their name, and then I say, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, we need to talk.
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SPEAKER_00
But that s a little scary.
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SPEAKER_00
It is a little scary.
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SPEAKER_00
That s a good little one that a lot of people will at least open up.
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SPEAKER_00
And then the template that I use, it s like, hey, we run this magazine, we have
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SPEAKER_00
X amount of reach.
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SPEAKER_00
We d like to do this.
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SPEAKER_00
We just need 20 minutes of your time, 20, 30 minutes of your time.
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SPEAKER_00
We want to put you on the front cover.
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SPEAKER_00
We ll feature you on the podcast.
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SPEAKER_00
We ll do an email blast.
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SPEAKER_00
We ll put you on our social media.
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SPEAKER_00
We ll turn it into a blog post.
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SPEAKER_00
We ll repurpose it onto these columns.
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SPEAKER_00
Just usually take it from there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, please know, Jordan, people don t always write back.
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SPEAKER_00
So I ve got a few little bits and pieces that I use to get people to write back.
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SPEAKER_01
Do you have any thoughts for people that, let s say, don t run a magazine that has a large reach?
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SPEAKER_01
Like, what if I m trying to reach out, not even for my business, but I want to reach out to somebody higher in my organization or an influencer that I admire because I want to write a blog post about them for something completely unrelated?
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you have tips for them?
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SPEAKER_01
Because I ll just be fully honest here.
3
SPEAKER_01
If I got an email that was like, Jordan, we need to talk.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it was like, I d like to interview you.
3
SPEAKER_01
I would probably delete that because I find that super aggravating when people trick me into opening things.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know that I probably am more annoyed by that than most normal people.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think I m just a little bit jaded possibly, but.
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you have advice for people that maybe should not risk that?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because if somebody turns you down or ignores you, Nathan, you re good.
3
SPEAKER_01
But if my company s CMO ignores me or gets really annoyed by that, and I m a first-year junior mailroom guy, that might be something that doesn t work for me years down the line, and we don t want that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, that s a really good point.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s just a little one that I use every damn day that is really, really powerful.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I guess what it comes down to, I think,
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SPEAKER_00
Now, I know this is contradicting because we use quite long emails, but let s say you want to write to someone that s influential, that s a CMO, you don t have a magazine or you don t have any sort of media outlet, you re not looking to get an interview, you re just looking for that person s time.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think I would be really respectful of their time.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is something that I do to catch up with really hard to reach people is I show, first of all, that I m a massive fan and that I know who they are.
3
SPEAKER_00
I follow what they do and I m really respectful of their time.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I say, you know, I want to catch up.
3
SPEAKER_00
I d love to be able to ... First of all, I d open with something around like,
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SPEAKER_00
I ve done X, Y, and Z for you, or I ve done, this is awesome, I ve done this, and then I d say, look, I m not sure if it s your thing, I d be really light about it, but I d love to catch up.
3
SPEAKER_00
Definitely one thing I don t say is I don t say I wanna pick your brain.
3
SPEAKER_00
Never say you wanna pick that person s brain.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s like one of those, what do you call it, red flag code word, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, definitely, whatever you do, you don t say I wanna pick your brain.
3
SPEAKER_00
Why not?
3
SPEAKER_00
That just screams,
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SPEAKER_00
It s all about me and not about you.
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SPEAKER_00
Like I m going to take your time.
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SPEAKER_00
and you re not going to get any benefit from it whatsoever.
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SPEAKER_00
I m a taker.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, I agree with that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And of course, being respectful with time, especially if their time is hugely important.
3
SPEAKER_01
I will tell you that I get a lot of really serious email, as you probably know, people saying, I m not sure if I want to stay in my marriage and things like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And there s three, four, five paragraphs attached to that because it s a complicated situation.
3
SPEAKER_01
But when I m going through my inbox, there is something in my chest slash gut that sinks
3
SPEAKER_01
when I see something really long and if I m
4
SPEAKER_01
through emails and I m trying to do 100 in the next couple of hours or so, I often will boomerang those long emails to come back at a later date because I feel like, oh, right now I gotta be doing one minute per email.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t wanna sit down for 10 minutes.
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SPEAKER_01
and answer this one.
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SPEAKER_01
It s just too long.
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SPEAKER_01
So the shorter you can make it, the better.
4
SPEAKER_01
And another thing that works really well, as far as getting my attention, is right along with what you d said, which was, show them that you re a fan.
4
SPEAKER_01
And there s something in my gut as well that I can tell
4
SPEAKER_01
When someone says, I m really a fan of what you do, and then they move on right from there, I feel like they re not telling me the truth.
4
SPEAKER_01
I feel like that s a nebulous comment that says, I like the idea of what I think you probably do over at the Art of Charm, but I don t listen to your show, I don t really care about it, I haven t done my homework.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s a huge difference in my response rate, and again, this is sample size of one, but I can tell you, I think a lot of folks in my position think similarly.
4
SPEAKER_01
When someone says, hey Jordan, I m a really big fan of the show, I listened to the episode with Nathan Chan, and it was really cool how specific you got about how to reach influencers.
4
SPEAKER_01
I also listened to the other one that you did with
4
SPEAKER_01
Penn Jillette from Penn and Teller.
4
SPEAKER_01
I always loved those guys.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was a great conversation about this and this.
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SPEAKER_01
Anyway, you probably get that all the time, so I wanted to ask if you d be interested in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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SPEAKER_01
That shows me this person actually understands my brand.
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SPEAKER_01
There s a much higher chance that what they re asking me to do is gonna be in my wheelhouse.
4
SPEAKER_01
and they re not just mass mailing 50 influencers in air quotes that they can get a hold of and saying, I m a big fan of what you do.
4
SPEAKER_01
So that if they re challenged on that, then they can Google around for the answer to the question.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I feel like I get those two separate types of emails all the time and there s a very different feeling from me about the people who do it right and the people that do it wrong.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, spot on.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think the more kind of effort and the more
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SPEAKER_00
thoughtful you are, but not sending a massive long, long email, the higher chances you have for that person wanting to write back, wanting to respond.
4
SPEAKER_00
And yeah, if you re super respectful of their time, like I think even expecting a half an hour to 20 minutes of someone s time is a big ask.
4
SPEAKER_00
I always go for five minutes.
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And this is me putting on my hat where, you know, we re not pitching for an interview.
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It s just, you know, maybe
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I wanna catch up with that person.
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I wanna have a chat with them, or there s something I think I can do for them.
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I think that s really, really key.
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Law of reciprocity, right?
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SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
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That s something that shouldn t be underestimated.
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Thanks for listening and supporting the Art of Charm.
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For a list of all of the amazing sponsors and discount codes, visit theartofcharm.com slash advertisers.
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Now, back to the show.
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A lot of people wanna help other people, and that includes people who have great, huge businesses and are really influential.
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It s just a matter of scale, and it s a matter of them also having time for themselves.
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I think if you do this stuff right, you can really find yourself getting, quote unquote, a lucky break, right, that you get from Richard Branson, for example, and then once you ve got that credibility in play, it becomes much, much easier to get other people involved in what you re doing.
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You actually are one of my go-to guys for brand new tools, email tools.
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I can t remember if you told me about Boomerang.
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You might have.
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It was probably forever ago.
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Who knows when that was?
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And then also you told me about Rebump.
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Tell me how you use these tools because these have been things that I went from not knowing they even existed to using them literally every single day, multiple times per day.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, these are both really, really great tools.
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So, you know, one thing that I find, Jordan, and this is even within myself, is it s really scary to write to somebody that you is maybe an idol of yours or write to somebody that you really, really look up to.
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or write to somebody that would get hundreds, maybe even thousands of emails a day.
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Even that thought process of even writing the email and hitting send can be really, really intimidating.
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And it s another thing to send them five emails and follow them up.
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So one thing that I ve done is I ve found some great tools like Boomerang, like Rebump, and what they do, both of them do, I particularly like Rebump.cc.
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It s very similar to Boomerang, both great tools.
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With Rebump.cc, what you can do is you can automate follow-up.
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So because you have, like naturally as I think a human being, it is kind of scary to write to that person, there s a high chance that they might not write back.
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And what Rebump.cc does, it s a little Gmail plug-in, and you can write an email, and you can have pre-written follow-up templates that will trigger on automation if this person doesn t write back to you.
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Because it s constantly be scanning your inbox to see if that person writes back to you, and if they don t, within five days, an automatic follow-up email will just go out.
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The follow-up emails always make sure they re super light-hearted, something like,
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hey, I know you re super busy, this might have gone off your radar, hope to hear from you soon.
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Something like really lighthearted, this might have gone off your radar, look forward to hearing from you, hope to hear from you soon.
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And if you can do that, that increases your chances tenfold, because it s usually what I find is the second or the third or the fourth, or maybe even sometimes, I was trying to get in touch with someone, it was like the seventh or the eighth,
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And they wrote back and it s like, yeah, no worries.
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Yes, let s make it happen.
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That tool in particular is very, very powerful because it automates follow-up and you forget.
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It s easy to forget how many emails you ve sent.
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Me and you both, we d send so much emails, so much comms out to all sorts of people.
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It s just a great little tool.
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Same with Boomerang.
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It s a great way when you re writing to somebody to just get the email to come back to you if you re not ready to write back to it or if you re writing to somebody and you want to try and send something out, not straight away.
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That s what s really cool about Boomerang as well.
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I like Boomerang as well because sometimes when you write back to someone fast, sometimes it teaches people to just keep writing back to you quickly and sometimes I don t want to write back quickly so I send it later with Boomerang.
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I think that s really cool as well.
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I love these tools so much, I can t even, I ve been looking for excuses to mention them in the past few shows, just because they re so good.
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Here s the thing, a lot of people go, ugh, I can t buy more software, I don t want more stuff.
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This isn t a program that runs on the computer, it literally installs inside your Gmail window.
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So if you re using Gmail or Google Apps for your business, which has a Gmail interface, it s just part of the email program at that point, which is really, really nice.
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And I highly recommend even switching to Gmail or starting from Google Apps to use these tools.
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By the way, it s like $5 a month, and I think the super deluxe version that lets you do multiple types of strings and more reminders is something like $12 a month.
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And then for Boomerang, I think it s also like $10 a month for a very, very usable plan that might even have unlimited amounts of messages.
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And there is a free version that lets you do 15, which is more than enough
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for most people starting out anyway in terms of email reminders, and it also allows you to send later and things like that.
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So I use the send later function to send, let s say, at 7 a.m.
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their time on a weekday so that it s at the top of their inbox.
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Because if you send it the night before, at that point, if I m sending email to you,
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Well, you live in Australia, so I probably screwed up with the example, given your time zone, but let s say that I sent it at night your time, and all this email s piling up over the next 12 hours from people in your inbox from the United States and beyond, and then you wake up, my message is no longer the most recent one, it s 25 messages down, you re not getting to that when you walk in the office.
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But since so many people check their inbox for urgent things right when they get in, most of us are training ourselves not to do that now, but most of us still do it,
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If you have send later activated, you can have that sent right when they get in the office.
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And another sort of elite trick that I use for really, really super busy people is I ll figure out when they get into the office, either through friends that work at the organization or an article where they talk about their morning routine or something like that.
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I will literally look for when they get into the office, typically, and I ll schedule it for the time that s during their commute, because they probably don t drive themselves.
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They re probably on a subway or a train or in an Uber or something like that, and if they do drive themselves, often they re gonna check that email right when they get in, if not while they re sitting there with nothing else to do.
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So I ve gotten really good response rates by targeting people s commute to work time, because that s kind of the sweet spot
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they re just sitting there, right?
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Half the people are sitting there on the muni, a bus, or in the back of a car, and they re just looking at their phone, looking in their email, working on something like that, and boom, there s your message, and they can type out a response right away.
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So boomerang s really good for that send later.
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And rebump, how far apart are you spacing your response?
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or re-bump messages.
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You can choose five days after the first email, five days after the second bump or whatever.
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How far apart are you spacing these?
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How frequently are you bugging people?
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Yeah, I think four to five days is reasonable.
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This is something that you ve maybe tested, or you re just saying politeness-wise.
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Yeah, I haven t tested politeness-wise.
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I think you re probably right.
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When people follow up with me the day after they send an email, what it kind of signals is, I have no idea how busy you are.
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I assume you already saw this and zeroed out your inbox, and I wanted to be
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get back to your attention, what I often do is if I see too many too quick follow-ups, I will simply archive it because instead of the squeaky wheel gets the grease, the squeaky wheel gets the no.
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And I ll often say, oh, you re on an urgent timeline, not doing it, right?
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but if you re willing to wait and you bug me every week or two, it s not annoying enough for me to have missed that email and it s just polite enough where I m like, okay, you re serious about it and you accept that I might not be able to do this instantly for you.
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But when somebody wants a reply that same week, that s when I think, oh, this is gonna be one of those people who gets an inch and wants a mile.
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Yeah, no, I agree.
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Yeah, that s pretty spot on.
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If someone s bugging you like flat out every single day, then that s actually not being respectful of your time, I think.
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Yeah, it kind of just signals they don t get it.
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You want to minimize the amount of time you spend with people who don t get it, who don t understand what situation you re in.
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Because those are typically, in my experience, the same people who are going to get angry when you only schedule 20 minutes instead of the hour that they wanted, or when you send them short replies.
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Also, there s a balance of persistence with you.
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I mean, you had mentioned before the show that you had pitched Barbara Corcoran from Shark Tank, and she said no, and you came back a year later.
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So, you were persistent, but not irritating, and that s a fine line.
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By the way, when you did that, when she came back after a year, did you in any way acknowledge, hey, we talked to you a year ago and you were too busy, wanted to try you again, or did you just start from scratch each time?
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No, I acknowledged saying hey to her assistant, but I actually did a forward.
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So that s a good one too.
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If you wrote to somebody and you ve had some comms with them doing a forward, then when they see the subject line, it looks like they might not remember, but there s been some conversation, right?
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So I just did a forward of the existing email chain that we had where they said no, and I just said, hey, look, as you can see below, you guys were super busy.
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One of the reasons I said no is, one, they were pretty busy, but also around the size of our audience.
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It just wasn t a good fit.
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So I just followed up and said, hey, in a year s time, we re at X, Y, and Z now, and I d still love to make this happen.
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And they ended up saying yes.
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Right, so the reason I ask that question is I think it s very tempting for a lot of people to write and say, hey, we talked a year ago, and I wondered if in your experience it made sense to say, hey, we ve been talking for a long time, you ve put us off for a while, so that they can either say no or they can say, all right, you ve been in line for a long time on this one, maybe I ll throw you a bone here, even if your size isn t what we normally hope for having an A or B list person on your platform.
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And I think that s kind of important, because I know that a lot of folks also, at least I should say, you know what, in my head, I ve always been kind of torn.
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Do I remind them that I ve asked them eight times to do this, and they said no eight times, reinforcing their current decision that no was the right answer?
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Or do I start totally from scratch, pitch them again with all of our updated stats, and hope they don t remember me, and then say, wow, this looks like a really good opportunity.
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not realizing that the past eight times they actually decided against it with pretty similar numbers.
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And so I think there is some human element.
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And I guess you could try both, right?
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You could try one, especially if there s multiple gatekeepers.
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You could try the person who said no to you a bunch, and you could also try another person who has never heard from you.
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But the danger is you can t do it at the same time because if you do, those two people might be in touch and cancel each other out and say, look,
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this guy already wrote me, and then you get lost in the shuffle.
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So in your experience, you think referencing past pitches, unless they went horribly wrong, of course, is generally a good idea and increases follow-up, or increases their response rate?
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Yeah, that s what I ve found.
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And I think just understanding, as humans, if someone shuts you down, it can be really gut-wrenching.
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It s just like a punch to the gut.
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I think just understanding, okay, well, if it s not now, it might be later, and just doing that follow-up.
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Because you just don t know unless you follow up.
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And that s something that s held me in very, very good stead.
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So this has happened with a lot of our interviews, where we still have some.
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where I need to follow up.
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I mean, it s been about a year, and they said, come back to us later.
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Like, for example, Jamie Oliver.
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We ve asked them, we ve asked Jamie Oliver s team three times now, and I m not really that fussed about it.
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It s not the end of the world.
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I just know it s gonna happen, so just follow up.
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So I think using tools like Follow Up CC.
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Are you familiar with Follow Up CC?
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I am.
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Isn t that just kind of poor man s boomerang, though?
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How is that different?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it is a poor man s boomerang, but for some reason I like to use follow-up CC for the only particular reason if someone says, no, really busy, I ll just forward it for six months, follow-up CC, and just get reminded in six months that I need to pitch that person in my email.
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Great, so you don t just boomerang everything, you ll often have those things come back on a different system.
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I guess that s just a matter of preference.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I might change the strategy up, or it just depends.
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You d mentioned, by the way, that you use relatively long emails.
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That s sort of the one open loop that I wanted to close up.
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Why do you use longer emails when really we just discussed using shorter messages initially?
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Yeah, I know, that is contradictory.
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For me, Jordan, I ve always found that I want a value stack, and I know this is an internet marketing term, you know, when you get this, then you get this, and you get this, and oh, plus this bonus.
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But I don t know, I ve always found that we have to use a big, reasonable list of bullets to show people what they get.
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And then we also have to give a decent introductory around the brands and what we do and why we re different and why you should care and, you know, how this would work and how we can turn one podcast interview and syndicate it out through, you know, five to eight different mediums of your choice.
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And because people will ask those questions if they do say yes anyway.
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So I just stack it all into one email.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it just tends to work.
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Like we get asked all the time.
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the emails that we send, we do have a landing page.
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I ll give you a no opt-in landing page.
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So if you go to foundermag, F-O-U-N-D-R-M-A-G.com forward slash email, E-M-A-I-L, swipes, S-W-I-P-E-S.
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This is a no opt-in, so don t expect your email address.
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you could get some templates that we ve got.
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We link to that in the show notes and you ll get the email template.
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And I think that s really generous of you, by the way, props for hooking that up because this is something that getting an actual script and then modifying it with your own numbers and your own
5
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impressive stats, and even if you don t have those stats yet, you can use the same format because, honestly, it s just something that makes sense that s been tested a bunch, with, of course, the different numbers in here.
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I think that s really, really generous, so thank you so much for that.
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And, obviously, what you re doing is really working.
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We ve given a ton of information.
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of networking and essentially reaching out to influencers, reaching out to hard to reach and busy people, as well as the actual email tools and even scripts to do it.
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I think that s really awesome.
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SPEAKER_01
And I would love to have you wrap by telling us a little bit more about some of what you are teaching people with Founder, because if you re this helpful with your frigging pitches and emails, what is actually in the magazine, right?
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That s what people want to know.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
So look, thank you so much for the kind words, John.
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It s been a ton of fun.
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You re a tremendous interviewer, dude.
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You really broke it all down, extracted as much as I can give around this stuff, and we ve got pretty much a whole course on it now.
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SPEAKER_00
So what do we do?
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Well, what happened was with Founder of the Magazine, I started it and it kind of took off.
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I ve been running it for three and a half years.
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What happened along the way was
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I worked out that it s founded, it s actual brand that s much more, it can become this massive brand that s much more than just a magazine.
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SPEAKER_00
So we do have some educational courses, we do have a membership site, and we do all sorts of other things.
5
SPEAKER_00
We have a podcast, we have a high-traffic blog, and social channels, and everything that we do is around entrepreneurship and serving entrepreneurs and helping entrepreneurs however we can.
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SPEAKER_00
And the end goal for us is to produce courses at scale, I think.
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just produce great content.
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So I see the difference between what we do as having a whole ton of free content, which 99% of our stuff is free, but then also having paid content, which is our premium stuff, and just scaling that up as well.
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So that s how we ve really grown the platform.
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But we do have an awesome project that we are working on right now that I d love to share
6
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As we ve discussed, we ve interviewed all sorts of amazing entrepreneurs, some of the greatest entrepreneurs and founders of our generation in the past three and a half years.
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What we ve decided to do is we are a digital-only magazine.
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We re actually creating this body of work, and I believe it will be the best body of work that we ve put together so far, which will have
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a compilation of all the best interviews, the best advice, the best gold, put into this hybrid kind of coffee table physical book, which is beautifully designed, that we re actually going to crowdfund, that I m really, really excited and pumped about.
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There s nothing out there that exists like a book like this right now that s
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really hardcover, physical, coffee table style with the content that we have with a roundup of just insights.
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So we ve got thousands of hours worth of content and we ve just compiled it into this amazingly designed book that we re crowdfunding.
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The magazine itself has definitely got some great articles, great content from Richard Branson.
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We ll link to that in the show notes as well.
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Thank you so much, Nathan Chen.
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Much appreciated, man.
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SPEAKER_00
You re welcome, you re welcome.
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Thank you so much for having me, Jordan.
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Thanks, guys.
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Bye-bye.
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Really, really good episode.
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A lot of tactics here.
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You know, Jason, I kind of, I miss doing episodes where it s like, and then what do you do?
6
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And then what do you do?
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And then what do you do?
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Because it s not as free-flowing as some of the maybe like funny conversations that we have or deeper sort of philosophical stuff.
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But I ll tell you, this stuff is refreshing.
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I like this.
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I like doing stuff like this.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, I could tell you went down the nerd rabbit hole on this one.
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Yes, nerd rabbit holes are us.
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If you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Nathan on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as his book that you should definitely check out.
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And of course, check out FounderMag.
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You ll really dig it.
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And that ll be linked in the show notes as well.
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SPEAKER_02
And you can tap the album art, the little cover art in most mobile podcast players.
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So the app you re using to listen to this, you can tap your phone.
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The show notes should appear right there if you re using a good program.
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and I m also on Twitter, and I post a lot of stuff that never makes it to the show, articles, insights, and it s probably one of the best ways to reach me.
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I m at The Art of Charm on Twitter.
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Bootcamp and live program details for The Art of Charm here in L.A., bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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Remember, we sell out a few months in advance.
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We do a lot of these programs, almost every week, but they do sell out a few months in advance.
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If you re interested, please do get ahold of us so you can plan ahead.
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SPEAKER_02
And, of course, we ve got our Art of Charm Challenge,
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theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or if you re here in the States, text charmed to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
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SPEAKER_02
That challenge, it s about improving your networking and connection skills, inspiring those around you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you.
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We ll also email you our fundamentals toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show, and I do regular videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward.
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It s designed to make you a better networker, a better connector, and of course, a better thinker.
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That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or just text charmed, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, here in the U.S., to 33444.
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For the full show notes for this and all previous episodes of The Art of Charm, head on over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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This episode of AOC was produced by Jason DeFillippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
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Show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead and tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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So stay charming, and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.