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In this episode of the Advanced Selling Podcast, we talk about people who walk around with their hands behind their backs and why that bothers us.
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You ll hear about Prince, brain surgery, and my honeymoon listener meetup story all in one episode.
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And we start the process to help you craft your message by exploring and creating a higher concept.
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Welcome back, everybody.
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This is the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest running sales training podcast in podcast history.
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Bill Kasky here.
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Brian Neal on this side of the desk.
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We welcome you, one and all, to every podcast.
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We are so glad.
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We have awesome listeners.
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We had a webinar, a live stream, about two or three weeks ago.
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We talked about LinkedIn.
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If you did not get on that and weren t on there, make sure you re connected on our LinkedIn, or I m sorry, to our email list.
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Go to advancedsellingpodcast.com.
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Down at the bottom you can sign up for our email list and you get access to all these live events that we do And also, of course, we are we have launched the ASP insider program that is a membership community of listeners and every month a
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We strike a topic that we think really applies to our listeners next month It s going to be about messaging in the post kovat world.
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How do you position yourself?
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How do you position your value?
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We did some fun stuff too in the preview call kept preview call and what we call those things a preview call where we you know We invite people you don t pay for that and it kind of leads people into the insider group we did a lot of work on LinkedIn and
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and what to do.
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And Bill kind of handled his layer of expertise, which is about how to create video.
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Gave me some really good tactical advice to do.
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I took them through a process where I actually made a connection.
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We found a connection from one of our listeners in California to a connection to a PhD person who works at Eli Lilly in Indianapolis via my cousin.
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How about that?
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That s how LinkedIn works right there.
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So that s the kind of stuff we do.
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And I m telling you, if you talk to the people that are in the Insider Program, they ll say, we get really deep.
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And the stuff that we re talking about, you can go do immediately.
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So if you re not an insider yet, go become one.
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That s a great point.
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On the podcast here, we talk a lot about bigger concepts, themes, and how to call on people.
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But in The Insider and some of those other areas, we really get into the nitty gritty, get into the technical and the detail.
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And that s really what we all need today is, OK, yeah, I know what to do.
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I don t know exactly how to do it.
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That s it.
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That s what it is.
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And it s that last little push that goes, ah, I got it now.
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I can go do it.
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And then you can do it forever.
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So Bill, I have a question for you, something that just occurred to me.
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Is it political?
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Is it social justice or political?
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No, we can t do.
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Nope, not that.
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This is a question I ve noticed.
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Have you ever been around people that talk with their hands behind their back?
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Do you distrust people that talk with their hands behind their back?
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I was watching someone talk and I m doing it right now.
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You can t see this on the podcast, but I m going to put my hands behind my back.
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It s a little pretentious.
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It s a little patronizing.
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This is so weird.
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this.
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So go ahead, keep keep going with your story.
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That s it, and I watch this guy talking.
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I m like the guy looks like he s on twenty five thousand dollar pyramid, like a clock a things with the face King as a fake smile.
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Totally yes.
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Yeah, yeah hollowed out eyes.
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Yeah, people that talk with hands behind their back make me uncomfortable.
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I m trying to figure out why
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Well, this is really strange.
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We were at Turkey Run, which is a state park here in Indiana.
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It s an awesome state park.
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It s really good.
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And we had gotten there, and a lot of flip-flops at Turkey Run.
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Why is that?
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I don t know.
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A lot of young people go hiking in flip-flops.
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And there was a lady standing there.
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She was probably 60.
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She was a little hunched over.
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I m going to stand up and imitate this.
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Yeah, she was standing there kind of overlooking this beautiful Just beautiful terrain and vista and she was standing here like this And I said to my wife I said Can you can you tell a lot about somebody the way they stand and she goes you re judging you re judging.
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I m like, okay I m profiling i m judging.
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She was she was an older white lady.
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She was she was
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obviously not too impressed with the terrain because of the way she was holding her hands behind her back.
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So it s the same thing.
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That is so funny.
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We didn t compare notes on this either before.
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And you would think if there was a 35-year-old, highly aggressive, assertive somebody, they would have their hands out in front of them.
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They d be on their binoculars.
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They re waiting for a mountain lion to jump out so they can grab it by the neck and snap its neck and kill it right there.
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Not this.
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No, no, she s going to take it.
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No.
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And you see people, you see people.
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I always notice people that ice skate with their hands.
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It s so cocky.
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People that ice skate like you go to that.
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So, you know, most people that s a pro at the ice skating.
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You re like flopping around everything.
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Hockey players don t do that though.
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Hockey players don t skate, but the guy that s just been, he s like,
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well zooming around the Carmel outdoor ice rink at I m more of a kind of pressure.
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I m more of a thrasher on the ice.
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I don t know, but if you stand with your hands behind your back, shoot me a note, will you and tell you tell me why you do that?
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What you know you get a better look like people lean in.
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It s like when they go to smells and like I m going to put my hands behind my back.
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So I don t oh, I do see it.
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Oh,
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Sorry topic topic today.
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Yeah, I m listening to a book by a guy named Steven Pressfield who has written several books.
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He s a he actually was the author of The Legend of Bagger Vance.
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Oh, yeah, who was the Gopher, right?
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Yeah.
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Well, was it Will Smith?
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Oh that play.
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I don t know that played bag of ants I don t remember.
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I think it is
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Anyway He s a really good writer and he writes on writing a lot.
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I bought his new book called No one reads no one likes your sh it.
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Yep, and it s a book about how to put Concepts into writing and into video better and it s really interesting.
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I think it d be a good book for our listeners to read Yeah
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And in there, he talks about this idea of a concept, the concept of a concept.
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And he says that when you re communicating your value to someone, you have to have a concept.
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You have to have a story or a theme.
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And he uses the example of the movie Die Hard with Bruce Willis.
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And he says when the screenplay writers were pitching that to the producers, they probably pitched it some way like,
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You know, the bad guys, the evildoers were in the building and they wanted to get access to the company s financial records so that they could liquidate and steal all the company.
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And the only thing to stop them was one security guard in the building at the time they went in.
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So that was Bruce Willis.
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And the point there is that when you have the concept right, everything underneath it falls into place.
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So as the movie progressed, that everything was part of that good guys and one bad, I m sorry, bad guys and one good guy.
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And I thought that was interesting from a concept standpoint, because I don t think we, when we re crafting our message, we as sales professionals really think about the concept that much.
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We think about, how are we going to make the sale?
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What do we need to say?
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What do we need to do?
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How many calls do we need to make?
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And next month, we re going to be talking to the insider a lot about, how do we position ourselves?
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And I thought this might be a good start to that whole campaign of, how do we craft our message, and what s the concept around it?
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And, uh, I think, uh, the first bit, so, so if you re listening, we are going to talk about this in the next insider, we re going to, and not just talk about, we re going to work on it.
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And this is something that I feel a lot of salespeople don t give much, if any attention to, they give attention to.
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their pitch, air quotes, their pitch, they don t give attention to their story or the storyline and or the theme.
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And in this case, the higher concept that runs throughout the theme.
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So that that s the part that never goes away.
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And the problem is, it s because it needs to be so simple.
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It s the hardest thing to come up with.
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We can come up with a huge list of stuff.
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Yeah, right.
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Why should you do business?
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Yeah.
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But to grab one small soundbite,
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that ties all that stuff together is really, really, really hard to boil it down.
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And that s why I think people miss it, because it takes so much effort to do.
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Go ahead.
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Go ahead.
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We feel like that more is better with this.
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We feel like if we name off a bunch of stuff, our buyers are going to go, oh, wait, that one.
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There s 80 things here we do.
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I ll take number 64.
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Totally.
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As opposed to putting one big theme and letting people find themselves in that theme or that one, that higher concept that you re talking about here.
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And I think it s also hard for us to put ourselves through the buyer s eyes, too.
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We end up, well, tell me about the storyline of your business, John, CEO.
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Well, the storyline of our business is we need to grow this thing 25% a year for the next five years so I can sell.
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Yes.
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Well, that s not a storyline the customer gives a shit about.
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No, they don t.
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So the question would be, OK, that s your storyline.
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What s the customer s storyline?
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And that s what we re talking about here, is the concept through the eyes of the customer, just like the diehard
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idea was through the eyes of the viewer.
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It makes the viewer say, oh, that s the concept?
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Yeah, I want to watch that.
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And you ve got to make sure that your messaging is appropriate.
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So maybe we, one of two things here, we can either take one of your clients or one of my clients and talk about the business they re in and play around a little bit with that.
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Or we could take the Advanced Selling Podcast.
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I think we should do that.
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And try to decide, OK, what the concept of the podcast is.
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Yeah, it s funny.
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I had to do this this morning.
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I had an early 7.30 AM Monday sales call.
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How s that?
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But talking to a senior VP of sales and owner of a company.
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It s a really, really big company with a really big, relatively speaking, to what we typically deal with, privately held.
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They have multiple divisions.
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They re kind of disparate, and we re here to talk about.
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what we do and how we approach things.
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And I was searching for this in that, meaning I m thinking, okay, he was very clear.
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What we are doing has worked.
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We were on a five-year great run.
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They re in an industrial space that wasn t hit by COVID very much.
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Each president, each divisional president gets to do whatever they want.
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They don t force them.
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Their sales team can do things, think things.
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It s all individual.
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It works for us.
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And I m going, hmm.
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You know, how does what we do for a living thread through this?
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And where I landed, and it was more accidental than intentional, because I wasn t really thinking through his structure, was that there are typically someone that sits in his seat at points in time will have a hotspot and will say, this particular division is raising their hand saying, we need some help.
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a good set of fresh outside eyes sometimes is nice to bring in to either validate that what they re planning to do is good, or bring a perspective out that they don t have.
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And so those two things, and that, I think, per, because he kind of changed them, like, oh, OK, well, we could, you know, that would be really interesting.
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So that thread of outside eyes, that s good for people.
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The other thing people don t realize is that,
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And the movie example is an interesting one.
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How many times does an author or writer of a movie pitch the thing and get turned down?
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All the time.
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All the time.
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All the time.
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I read a great little letter that was from a huge record label back in the 70s that said,
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Dear whoever the manager was, we appreciate you submitting blank artists.
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I ll tell you the artists in a minute.
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We don t feel this person is right for our brand and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
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We wish Prince a lot of luck in the future.
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Oops.
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They passed on Prince.
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You imagine passing on Prince?
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They wished him a lot of luck though.
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So that s good.
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That helped.
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So that s another thing, too, that people think that this higher concept has to hook, and it does not have to hook.
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It can be polarizing.
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It can let people say, oh, that s outside perspective.
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I don t need any of that.
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I m like, OK, well, good.
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Then it s never going to work.
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It s never going to work.
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And that person that passed on Prince might have passed on him again.
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Right?
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If you re a Christian music label, you re going to pass on Prince.
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You are, if you read some of his lyrics, more than likely.
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Not that the guy wasn t a good Christian guy, but you know, it just might not fit, right?
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Well, no, I ll play the lyrics for you.
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And and again as we ve said on the podcast before doing this is not about trying to convert the masses It s about it should be polarizing It should be this is who I am what I stand for what we do and and if people like it They re gonna be super attracted to it.
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If they don t they re not they re not so the truth is really important here to decide.
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What is my story?
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What s this concept?
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What s the background?
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Yeah, so let s talk about advanced selling podcasts.
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I like it.
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So maybe the way we start this is Why do why do we do this podcast and that might be a way for you to start your Exploration of this is why do you do what you do?
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Yeah, why does a company do what it does?
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Why do you do what you do within the company?
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But why do why do you think we do this podcast?
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Yes other than
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Yeah.
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First of all, I inherently enjoy it.
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I enjoy the process.
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I enjoy the mechanics of it.
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I enjoy working with you.
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I never don t look forward to recording the podcast, ever.
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And that s been the same since we had zero listeners to where we have 150,000 listeners.
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It s been the same the whole time.
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That has never changed.
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And it won t change if we go back to zero or up to a million.
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It won t change.
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So that s the first thing is I really enjoy the process.
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And when I say I enjoy the process, I enjoy the process, both the mechanical side of recording and the show and that sort of thing.
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And I also involve the challenge each week of trying to think about the listener and what the listener is dealing with and how can I, as someone who pays attention and observes others, bring them something that might help what they re dealing with be a little easier for them.
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Okay, that s good.
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Stop.
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Full stop.
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That s my why.
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Yeah, I think my why is very similar there.
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I think about this as, what is it that really excites me?
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It s when I hear from a listener who says, we got an email a couple of weeks ago, I can t remember his name, we ll have to drag it out and read it.
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But he said, I ve been listening to you guys for the last five years, and in that five years, oh, you just saw it, it came in like three or four days ago.
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Oh, they just finished, they just finished all the episodes?
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He just finished all the episodes, and he wrote this long, very well-written testimonial, in a way, of how his life has changed because of this.
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And that, to me, is a whole lot more than we teach you how to sell more stuff.
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Because teaching you how to sell more stuff is a part of this.
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But sharing ideas that come from our work with our individual clients or work that we kind of hatch as we sit down here and you take it out and you change your life because of it, that s really intriguing to me.
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That s compelling to me.
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I love that.
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I had written that down also.
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in thinking about as we were talking, of what is that kind of common theme in the ASP?
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I wrote down, we give salespeople things to think, things to do, and things to say that enhance their life, that enhance their business, and occasionally makes them giggle.
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Because that, to me, the essence of what we try to do here is give you really small but important, digestible, usable ideas for your sales life, but also for your life life that makes your life and your biz a little bit better and occasionally makes you laugh.
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This is the pause.
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I learned this in sales training class.
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Yeah, I know.
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I m diving deep in my soul.
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Yeah, dig in there.
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To figure out what this all means.
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What you just said there, and this is part of the process of getting to it, too.
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So this is really good.
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I m not saying the concept is good, but the process is.
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And what you said there was enhance and expand
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And that, to me, implies that if we are not careful, we as sales professionals, we as achievers, we as business people, we can become hemmed into our own thoughts.
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We can become kind of rut runners.
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We can run in the rut.
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And until someone comes along and says, hey,
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Hey, what are you doing that for?
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And that s the role I think we want to play is we want to snap our finger, set the alarm so that it goes off, so that you say, wait a minute.
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Why am I doing it this way?
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Something as simple as it s OK to say no.
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You re telling a prospect, look, if you don t want to do business with me, that s fine.
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Sometimes people have never thought of that.
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It doesn t even cross their mind.
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And so when you hear that from us, you say, well, that could change everything, that little concept, little thing.
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So I like the idea of enhancing and expanding with the purpose of getting us out of this rut that we can sometimes get in.
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Because every day, it s the same.
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It s Groundhog Day.
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Every day, I get up.
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I get up at 6.
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I go to work out.
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I go make calls.
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I come home.
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I watch TV.
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I get up the next day.
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And it can become tedious.
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And what we hope to do is provide kind of the shock treatment there that kind of wakes you up once a week and says, hey, am I really thinking about this incorrectly?
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Yeah.
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And I think it stretches across the board.
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I really feel there are listeners that we have, you see them pop up, that we have had that are across the globe.
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People in Austria, and Sweden, and in South America, that they ve been listening to us since we started 13, 14, 15 years ago.
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We always miss the date, don t we?
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We ve got to figure out the date of our first show so we can, you know, we always kind of educated guests that s around there.
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I think it s 06.
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Well, I know it s 06.
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06?
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What is this, 20?
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14 years ago.
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14 years ago.
2
SPEAKER_00
So that alone, that s rewarding.
2
SPEAKER_00
To go on the path and the journey with those people is really, really great.
2
SPEAKER_01
In another 20 years, we could have followed someone from college to retirement.
2
SPEAKER_01
Maybe we can.
2
SPEAKER_00
Hey, that would be interesting.
2
SPEAKER_00
That would be cool.
2
SPEAKER_00
Someone that started listening to us.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve been following you for 40 years.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, OK.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just sold my company for $50 million.
2
SPEAKER_00
Here s a bottle of wine.
2
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
2
SPEAKER_00
Thank you very much.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s funny.
2
SPEAKER_00
We could do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I think what we re learning even as we re talking about it out loud, and you hear Bill and I kind of doing it off the cuff, is it s not easy.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it requires some thought.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love that pause that we had where you re like thinking, because it requires that.
2
SPEAKER_00
So many people don t go deep on this and think about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t think we re there yet.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, we re definitely not there yet.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think we re.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s no doubt.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think we re along the path.
2
SPEAKER_01
But one thing I was thinking is, OK, I m a listener.
2
SPEAKER_01
And how do you show up from my standpoint?
2
SPEAKER_01
So are you, Bill and Brian, the guys that I turn on in my car once a week?
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SPEAKER_01
And it s that one time when I can work on myself.
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SPEAKER_01
Because every other time, I m working on my family, on my business, on my customers, my boss, my manager.
2
SPEAKER_01
But this is the 20 minutes that I can reflect and I can work on myself.
2
SPEAKER_01
And to me, even if you do that once a week for 20 minutes, it s better if you do it every day.
2
SPEAKER_01
But even once a week, if you look forward to that time and you quiet everything else down and just, again, whether it s our podcast or somebody else, I think you ve got to find that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Find that one.
2
SPEAKER_00
And some people don t want to quiet down.
2
SPEAKER_00
Some people want their person on this side of the fence to yell at them or scream or pump them up, and that s an approach, and that people find them.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think we get this all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
Here s the thing.
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SPEAKER_00
I think advanced selling podcast listeners, and we feel this too, feel like they re talking or listening to a friend.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s a massive amount of familiarity that if we ran into you in an airport, on the street, on a beach somewhere, that it would feel like you just met an old friend that you knew.
2
SPEAKER_00
That would make me really happy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Which I did meet.
2
SPEAKER_00
You did meet.
2
SPEAKER_00
I made a list a couple years ago.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
So there s that.
2
SPEAKER_00
He wasn t as impressed as you were, actually, because he never got mad.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, oh, yeah, I ve listened a couple of times.
2
SPEAKER_00
You guys do a nice job.
2
SPEAKER_00
OK, thanks.
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you realize we re halfway around the freaking globe, and you listen to my podcast, and all you got is, you know.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was watching Lenox Hill.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you know what Lenox Hill is?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s a Netflix special, and there s thousands of them.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s about the hospital in New York,
2
SPEAKER_01
It s a slice of life, real world kind of thing, where they take doctors.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s a neurosurgery center.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s really fascinating.
2
SPEAKER_01
They show pictures of brain surgery.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I know how you don t like bodily fluids.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it s funny.
2
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes they ll come into the patient s room, and they ll say, well, here s what we re going to do.
2
SPEAKER_01
You ve got a cranium, blah, blah, blah, between this and this and between this and this.
2
SPEAKER_01
And we think if we can do it, we ve got a 90% chance.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the patient sits there like, OK.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then sometimes I told Jamie and I m like, why wouldn t you go hug the guy?
2
SPEAKER_01
My God, I m going to live because you re amazing.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it s no, okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
All right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then they pull out their phone and Facebook and Instagram.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m posting that I got another six months to go.
2
SPEAKER_01
Guy around the world.
2
SPEAKER_01
Never did.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
Didn t have it.
2
SPEAKER_00
All right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you want to take us out?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, thanks for listening.
2
SPEAKER_01
And of course, if you have not joined our LinkedIn group, make sure you go to advancedsellingpodcast.com slash LinkedIn.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you re interested in the insider program, which is a monthly membership community, go to advancedsellingpodcast.com slash insider.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s all there.
2
SPEAKER_01
Bye.
2
SPEAKER_01
Bye.