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In this episode of the Advanced Selling Podcast, Bill highlights the relationship between running with the bulls and axe throwing, I vow to never hold myself out as a fashion icon, and we riff on the question, can personal branding make sales obsolete?
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Well, welcome back, everybody.
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This is the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest-running sales training podcast in man s history.
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I m Bill Kaskins.
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In woman s history, too.
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I m Brian Neal.
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I met human.
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I met human.
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I know what you meant.
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So Brian, last week, we started to talk about the accounting firms.
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We knew them as the big eight.
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We did.
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Back in the day, they were the big eight.
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Now they re the big one and a half or two.
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And it went from the Big Eight to the Big Four.
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And we were talking in the pre-show.
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And so I looked up the Big Eight.
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Oh, OK.
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So here they are.
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Can I guess them?
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Yeah.
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Ready?
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Big Eight, Arthur Anderson.
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That s number one.
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Deloitte and Touche.
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That s number five, although it wasn t Deloitte and Touche.
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It was Deloitte, Haskins, and Sells.
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Dang.
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So OK, that s two.
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Then there was Ernst and Young.
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No.
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Ernst and what you said.
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Yeah.
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Winnie.
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Ernst and Winnie.
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Ernst and Winnie.
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Yeah.
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And then there was, oh, man.
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You said it.
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I did Coopers and Libra.
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Coopers and Libra.
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Coopers and Libra.
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Yeah, that s four.
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Yeah.
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That s four out of the big eight.
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Yeah.
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Then there was, give me a hint.
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The one that we did last week.
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Oh, yeah, gotcha.
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Know that one.
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That s five.
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Then there was KPMG.
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KPMG, yes, right.
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Which I never think about that, because that s a. And then Touche and Ross, which obviously became Deloitte Touche, they merged.
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So there s how the eight went to seven.
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Ernst and Winnie merged with Arthur Young.
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Arthur Young.
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To become Ernst and Young.
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I assume.
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I assume this is what happened.
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So anyway, through the merger and acquisition,
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a whole deal, they became four, and I don t know how many there are.
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A couple left, big ones.
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So PWC, it s the largest of the big four firms, Deloitte, Ernst & Young, KPMG.
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I will tell you, at the IU Kelley School of Business, when it came to recruiting, all the sales and marketing people, you think they d be the fun ones?
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The accounting firms threw the best parties.
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When they d come to recruit, holy cow, those people hit it hard.
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It was competitive.
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It was crazy.
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It was really competitive.
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Yeah, trying to get kids to make it, trying to make accounting fun and stuff like that.
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Yeah.
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Good luck with that.
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Yeah.
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Always snuck into the accounting parties as the sales guy.
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Okay, two things I read in the paper, and they were shockers for me.
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One is the running of the bulls just happened.
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I just saw that.
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And there were people gored.
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Do you believe that?
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Yes.
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They re always gored.
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I know, it s like, is that news?
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Americans were gored.
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They were.
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What the hell?
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We re so used to running with the bulls.
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How did they get gored?
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Well, they were running down a little tiny bitty street with a 4,000 pound pissed off bull with a white shirt and a red collar on.
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And so that was one thing I thought was interesting, how we re still shocked and dismayed about it.
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How did that happen?
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The second thing was I heard the other day, are you familiar with ax throwing?
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Well, it s a kind of a buzzy thing now.
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It s a buzzy thing.
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Have you done it yet?
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Not yet, no.
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We went to- Seems kind of boring after the first two times.
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It was okay.
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I mean, it was okay.
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It was kind of fun.
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But apparently there was an injury at axe throwing the other night here in town, and I can t imagine how.
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But apparently an axe was thrown at the wall and it came back and hit a lady.
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Didn t kill her, didn t concuss her, but it sliced her up pretty bad.
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She s not vertical.
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I never understood the idea of a bar.
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and an axe-throwing event coming together.
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And that s what they do.
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They re barsh.
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Right.
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It s a good idea.
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I ve got an idea.
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Let s feed booze to 25-year-olds and give them really sharp axes and a little place to throw them.
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I m sure nothing can go wrong.
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Nothing can go wrong.
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Between the bull running and the axe throwing, I m not sure which is crazier.
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But don t be shocked if you mix alcohol with either bull running or axe throwing.
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Ironically, they re probably both.
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Of course they are.
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Mixed very well together in those things.
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Hey, before we get into our topic today, which we re going to riff on what we think is a really cool topic, we re going to talk about whether or not we believe that personal branding can make sales obsolete.
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That s our topic, so stay tuned for that.
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In the meantime, if you re frustrated by a leaky sales funnel with prospects falling through the cracks and deals that don t close, which almost everybody listening to this experiences at some point, got to talk to our friends at outreach.io.
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Outreach.io is the leading sales engagement platform.
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and supports you, sales reps, and you, their managers, by making it simple to humanize and personalize communication at scale, automating the soul-sucking manual work and dramatically increasing the productivity efficiency of all revenue-generating teams.
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You can check them out at outreach.io forward slash ASP.
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That s outreach.io forward slash ASP.
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And chat with them.
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By the way, while you re there, you can get a free copy of their new book on sales engagement,
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ironically called The Book on Sales Engagement.
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Still, to this day, the greatest title of a book ever, The Book on Sales Engagement.
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That s outreach.io forward slash ASP.
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Like I mentioned last show, I ve got a client that s using Outreach.
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I see it work now on a day-to-day basis with them, and you really need to call them.
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Just check it out.
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And it does what they say it does.
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All the stuff you angst over, it takes care of and makes it really easy.
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I kind of joke, it makes you not have to think as a salesperson, which I think is a good thing.
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You know, in marketing, they say, the rule is, always call a product what it is.
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And that s what they ve done with that book.
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I like it.
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Because it s the book on sales engagement.
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I mean, it s not clever.
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You don t need to be clever.
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That s just what it is.
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I feel in the 70s, generic days, my dad used to do that.
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He used to go to the grocery store.
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Remember when the white label was black?
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Oh, yeah, the white label.
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And he used to get flour.
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Can you say it?
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No.
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Beer.
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Oh, man.
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Times were tough, spectacular household.
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I mean, you got to get what you get.
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But it was literally even Sterling or perhaps would have been better.
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Oh, that s OK.
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Topic today.
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Let s riff.
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Topic today.
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We re going to riff a little bit on this, because I think Brian and I both have different, maybe even different perspectives on this.
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But you re going to start with a tweet that you saw or an article.
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This was on LinkedIn.
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So this is kind of an article of an article.
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People that I respect a lot, too.
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So I love talking about them.
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And Jeffrey Hazlett.
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So I say that I believe in Hazlett.
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a really good business thinker, hosted a TV show.
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I remember him.
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Yeah, yeah, on C-Suite TV.
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Really, really smart guy.
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Put up just an example of quality over quantity on social media.
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So the question is, can personal branding overtake sales?
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And he just tells the story of this young lady who has 2.6 million
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followers on Instagram.
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She s an Instagram star, but struggled to sell, it says here, 36 t-shirts.
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So 2.6 million followers couldn t sell 36 t-shirts.
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Reading through the comments, another good friend of the show, I would say Mike Weinberg, who I respect immensely, really smart guy, talks about- Does he know he s a friend of the show?
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I don t know if he is.
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We should have him on sometime.
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He s a really smart guy from St.
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Louis.
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He s really good.
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But talks about maybe, just paraphrasing here, Kylie Jenner s not the role model here.
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He also talks about Gary Vee saying that we should put up 100 pieces of content.
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His statement here, Kylie Jenner and Gary Vee are celebrities, not corporate salespeople.
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Maybe just maybe their fame and social media celebrity status, while wonderful for them, isn t the best example or case study for what successful B2B salespeople do.
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talks about as popular as Gary is with his brand and all that other stuff.
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It s a slight stretch to hold him up as a use case for professional selling.
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And then Mike, in great fashion, which I love, says, see chapter 2 in the book, Sales Truth.
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More examples there, which is his book, which I love, Mike.
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He ll sell 36 books just from that.
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Just from the one comment on LinkedIn.
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We joke, but that s true.
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So yeah, there s a question here is, can personal brand overtake bills getting stretched?
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I m all excited to hear about this.
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I love this topic.
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Because here s the first thing I thought of.
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And I agree with them when they said that Kim Kardashian, Khloe Kardashian, Gary Vee are not the models.
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They are not.
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They re not the models.
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I guess the Kardashians are the models, but Gary Vee certainly isn t.
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But the question is not, are you posting too much?
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The question is, are you posting at all?
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So when I see a business-to-business salesperson who doesn t post anything on LinkedIn,
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I always feel like you should take maybe a lesson or two from the Kardashians or Gary Vee and at least go to, I don t know, once a week.
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Maybe you start there.
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You don t have to do 100 a day like Vaynerchuk is.
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He s talking about 170 a day.
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But it works.
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And part of the reason he is a celebrity is because of that.
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Amen.
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Full circle.
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So you can t separate the quantity of posts and celebrity status.
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Now Kardashian, she s a totally different thing.
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But I don t think we re ever going to, in the B2B space, err on the side of posting too much and doing too much.
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I think we always err on the side of doing too little.
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That s really good.
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I mean, we ve talked about the podcast.
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We ve talked about going to three times a week or every day, because we know that more is more.
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More is more, for sure.
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So that s the first step.
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On which end of the scale are you?
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Then I moved to what I wrote down here is I wrote down the connection
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is to the audience that you re talking to is the most important part.
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That s more important to me than the size of the audience.
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I agree.
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The size of the audience is important.
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I m not going to say it, but it s true.
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That is a thing.
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Size matters.
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I just said it.
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I was hoping you wouldn t.
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I was trying to avoid it.
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I just couldn t.
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You could not.
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Past that, though, it s got to be the real connection.
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Now, this is something I feel super proud of our show here, because I believe wholeheartedly, and I think our listeners would agree, and they can all chime in on this one, is that we have created a really great connection with our audience.
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We involve them in the show.
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We ask for their feedback.
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We talk to them.
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We stay real close to what we talk about, which is business to business selling.
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And that s our deal.
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And we do it in the same format, the format that they like, short, punchy, boom.
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I mean, we ve just stayed true to all that.
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We ve not tried to go off on geopolitical tangents.
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We ve not tried to go off on random things that aren t related to what we believe our audience wants and needs.
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So I think you ve got to look at the connection that you have with your audience and feed them what they want.
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So then I also wrote down there, is it the right
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So is your brand, your personal branding, is it right?
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Because I think there are a lot of people that do personal branding trying to be someone else, or they see someone doing something.
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It s like, oh, I see that person who s a personal coach, so I m going to be a personal coach.
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But you really haven t sat back and go, what does that mean to you?
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Who are you going to coach?
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What s your message that resonates with them?
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I think you have to get real clear on your gift to the world when it comes to something personal brand specific.
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That makes sense.
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You can see right now by what I m wearing, which this is being videotaped, I am not going to start a blog, a podcast, or ever talk about fashion in my deal.
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It s just not my deal.
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Why do you discount yourself?
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Well, because I ve got these shorts are 11 years old.
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They are a bit short.
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I ve noticed they were a bit short.
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This was a free t-shirt I got somewhere.
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I got this at a baseball game with my kid.
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I figured that.
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And I have black socks on, which now are cool, but back in the day.
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But six months from now, it may not be.
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You know what I mean?
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Get on your stuff.
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Anyway.
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So I like that idea of, I m going to use two words, reputation and relationship.
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And that is, if you are someone, let s say you re a listener here, and you re a B2B salesperson.
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And let s say that you have been doing the same thing for 10 years.
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And you re really bright.
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You re really smart.
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You ve seen it all.
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You ve seen the misconceptions.
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You know what problems.
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then you need to be posting because, A, when you post good quality content, it does help your reputation.
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I don t think there s any question about that.
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There s no doubt.
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And if you are always asking your customer, your audience, rather, for input, what do you think about this?
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This is something I see a lot of times in the da, da, da.
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I want to hear your comments.
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That s relationship.
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So if you can post.
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valuable content, you re developing a reputation, and if you can inquire and get some engagement, you re developing those relationships.
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If you re doing those two things, and think about Gary Vee, I mean, he s published a lot of stuff that he gives away for free, not like every day, but there s all sorts of things over the past six months to a year that he s published that are significant things that he just gives away.
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So that s how he develops his reputation as someone who wants to give back, wants to bring value.
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And I think where we get caught up in here is that there s a right or wrong way and there just isn t.
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It just has to be aligned to the person.
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So in Mike Weinberg s case, he s a salesperson.
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He grew up selling.
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It s in his DNA.
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He loves it like we love it.
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And so I m going to err on the side of selling.
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That s my that s just in my DNA.
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Someone else may err on the side of marketing.
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You probably wiggle more on the side of marketing.
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Probably.
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Your heart s more in that.
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You love it.
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You love creating content.
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You re super creative.
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You like to write.
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You took the movie class and stuff.
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I probably air more on the side of like, well, let s go pound some phone calls out.
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Let s go have some meetings and stuff.
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And both of those can work.
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I went up to Gary s 4D program.
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And I m talking as I m going up there.
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And I m trying to do some give back to them.
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And I said, hey, if you ever want me to talk to your sales group or whatever, I d be happy to do that.
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He goes, not he, but the guy who set it up.
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He goes, we don t have a sales group.
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I m like, you don t have any salespeople by function here?
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There s 1,000 employees.
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They don t have any salespeople.
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Now, I think the answer would be, I ve got 1,000 salespeople.
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They just don t sell the way that we would traditionally train someone to go out and prospect and that sort of thing.
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But it s just the way because that aligns with how he grew up in retail.
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That s just how he is.
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And so I think we confuse sometimes that it s like one or the other.
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If you re a brand person, if you can sell shit, sell stuff through your brand, through a billion Instagram followers, then you do it.
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That s your deal.
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Yeah, so then the question is, can personal brand building make selling obsolete?
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And I ve got a graph here that I just did.
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Oh, I like this.
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Yeah, it s very fancy.
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And we ll take a shot of it.
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And on the x-axis is your brand strength.
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So right near this y-axis that s low, out it s high.
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And then the y-axis, the up and down vertical axis, is control.
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And I would suggest that the more you build on your personal brand, and the higher and the better it gets, also the more control you have in the sales process.
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It does not obsolete it.
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That s great.
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But it does give you a chance to
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Holding up for the camera, it s really great.
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Yeah.
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To think about, OK, there is an impact.
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There is a consequence to low brand.
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There s a consequence to high brand strength.
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So if you re out there doing these things, I think you re going to have more control over the sales process.
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I think people are going to welcome you into the office better, which we ve seen.
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Yes.
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I think once you get there, the sales process is going to sail along easier.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re not having to prove yourself, because they ve listened to 180 podcasts, or they ve read books, or they ve read articles, or seen YouTube.
1
SPEAKER_01
Don t lose that thing.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think it has some power there.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I don t think it s a straight line.
1
SPEAKER_01
I d be interested to know what you think.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think it really starts to exponentially get higher there.
1
SPEAKER_01
at the farm.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think it goes up, it goes up, and then it flattens out.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s one of those deals, because it definitely goes up.
1
SPEAKER_00
Then it probably does flatten.
1
SPEAKER_00
You never have full control.
1
SPEAKER_00
You can t make people buy stuff, is the idea.
1
SPEAKER_00
But even my daughter, who s 17, will be 17 next week, asked for Kardashian s makeup stuff.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the little Kardashian is going to be a billionaire, I think, at this point.
1
SPEAKER_00
And everything is sold out.
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, the moment she puts anything up on Instagram, she ll announce it on Instagram, because now I follow her.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m going to show you.
1
SPEAKER_00
I follow.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it costs her nothing.
1
SPEAKER_01
There is zero ad costs on that.
1
SPEAKER_01
Now, it doesn t mean she doesn t do advertising.
1
SPEAKER_00
So she s got full control over her sales.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because the moment she puts it up, and everything in her portfolio right now is sold out.
1
SPEAKER_00
100% of it is sold out.
1
SPEAKER_00
Which is just the way she wants it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because the moment she puts it up, it s going to sell out again.
1
SPEAKER_00
So she has full control over her deal, for sure.
1
SPEAKER_00
And still, not every human being that goes there is going to buy something.
1
SPEAKER_01
OK, so lessons here for our audience today.
1
SPEAKER_01
We started with the Weinberg, Hazlitt, slash Hazlitt niche thing.
1
SPEAKER_01
Tomato.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
So what s one lesson you would want people to take away?
1
SPEAKER_01
And then while you re answering, I ll think of mine.
1
SPEAKER_00
It might be the same one.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can t think of another one.
1
SPEAKER_00
Do what s your deal.
1
SPEAKER_00
Do whatever is your deal.
1
SPEAKER_00
If your deal is selling, sell.
1
SPEAKER_00
If your deal is marketing, market.
1
SPEAKER_00
If your deal is in between, be in between.
1
SPEAKER_00
But just be you.
1
SPEAKER_00
in the whole deal.
1
SPEAKER_00
OK.
1
SPEAKER_01
My lesson would be don t be like them, but learn from them.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s great.
1
SPEAKER_01
Learn from Kardashian.
1
SPEAKER_01
Learn from Gary Vee.
1
SPEAKER_01
Learn from us.
1
SPEAKER_01
Learn from whomever you look at and say, you know, I kind of like to build a business that way.
1
SPEAKER_01
Tony Robbins talks about that a lot, is just model somebody.
1
SPEAKER_01
Pick somebody out that you kind of like.
1
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t mean that you want to be like them.
1
SPEAKER_01
It means you want to have a business like they have.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so learn lessons from these people who have millions of followers.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you will find lessons there.
1
SPEAKER_01
You ll find ways they re doing things.
1
SPEAKER_01
And when you start to study them, you ll see little nuanced ways they re promoting themselves.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Hey, if you want to riff on a topic live, this is fun stuff to do.
1
SPEAKER_00
And our friends that we go visit will tell us, hey, we just got a compliment a couple of weeks ago out at a gig in Vegas.
1
SPEAKER_00
Guy said, this is the best meeting I ve been to in the last three years.
1
SPEAKER_00
If you want that to happen, send us an email.
1
SPEAKER_00
Listen to advancedsellingpodcast.com.
1
SPEAKER_00
Put in the subject line, come see us.
1
SPEAKER_00
Bill and I will make that happen.
1
SPEAKER_00
Doesn t matter if you re in charge of the meeting, if you re just going to be in the meeting and want it to be fun, then you can start the process and we ll pick it up from there.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s it.
1
SPEAKER_00
We will see you next time on the Advanced Selling Podcast.
1
SPEAKER_00
Bye.