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Welcome to the Sell or Die podcast.
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I m your host, Jeffrey Gittimer.
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And I m your host, Jen Gittimer.
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Well, in this podcast, we re gonna help you attract more qualified, unbelievable, ready-to-buy clients.
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We re gonna help you build loyal relationships.
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And the one thing you re hoping for, close more deals.
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Let s get into it.
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It s time to sell or die.
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Welcome, Die Hard.
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This is going to be an amazing episode because it may be about you.
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And I want to find out from the person who has literally transformed this entire movement, the imposter movement, which it s becoming, into reality for you to be able to benefit from.
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And maybe you don t think you re one, but maybe you have characteristics of one.
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And maybe you have decided you re going to be one.
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Maybe you have faked it before you made it.
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But the bottom line is something s going on in your life or someone that you know s life.
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And we re going to discuss that today with the great Gary Fry.
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Gary has been my friend for, I hate to say this, more than 30 years.
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Is that horrible or what?
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And through that, our friendship has actually grown.
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That s the cool part.
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Yeah.
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And he wanted to write this book.
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He finally did write this book.
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He has this book published now.
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And if you don t go to Amazon and buy Silence the Impostor right now, something s drastically wrong with you.
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It s classic.
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And you re going to get vibes of, oh, shit, that s me.
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You re going to get a lot of bullshit.
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That s me.
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So welcome, Gary.
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Thank you, Jeffrey.
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It s always a treat to be with you.
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Thanks.
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No, the pleasure is mine, but you re correct.
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You ve always been an excellent judge of character.
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So, talk to me about how this first came up in your mind.
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Yeah.
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Well, I never even heard the term imposter syndrome until a few years ago, but about that time, I had been coaching a woman who had 10,000 W-2 employees at the time.
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quite accomplished, probably one of the best CEOs I ve ever known, much less been able to coach.
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And she was on our podcast.
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She was one of our first guests, actually, almost four years ago, not quite, on the podcast called The Anything But Typical Podcast, which the amazing Jeffrey Gittermer has also been on.
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But she said to me, she goes, Gary, I don t know what I m doing.
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And I said, Tana, are you kidding me?
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Like, why would you say that?
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And she said, I only have a two-year secretarial degree.
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I said, Tana, you run circles around pretty much every CEO that I know that has advanced degrees.
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And I said, you know what?
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I think that is.
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I think that s imposter syndrome.
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And she laughed.
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She goes, yeah, you re right.
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And then I thought about it more.
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I don t know if it was that evening, but it was shortly thereafter.
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And I thought, man,
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almost every CEO that has confided in me that I ve either coached or that I ve served or that I ve walked alongside and I ve walked alongside many, they ve said the same sort of thing like, oh, I just got lucky.
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I just had a bunch of good people around me and the timing was right.
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I really don t, I m not that good.
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And I ve even had people say I m a fraud.
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And I m like, wait a minute,
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I felt that way ever since I was a kid.
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Kids teased me, called me Mr. Perfect.
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And it wasn t that I was perfect, because none of us are, but I set such idealistic goals.
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Whoa, whoa, whoa.
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What do you mean, none of us are?
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I m perfect.
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You re perfect.
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It s everyone else that s screwed up.
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All right, keep going.
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Well, not all of us could be.
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By the way, I m not so sure about you.
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So anyway, that was kind of the thing.
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And there was another guy, he was the first guy that I brought in as a client to BGW, the CPA firm that I work for, a little over four years ago, about four and a half years ago.
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And he has three companies.
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He works 10 hours a week.
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That s it.
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Makes a ton of money.
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And he told me the same thing.
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And I said, Brent, why would you say that?
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And he said, I don t have any college education.
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This comparison trap of, you know, well, this is what a CEO, this is what a founder, this is what an entrepreneur is supposed to look like.
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There s their resume.
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Yes.
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Or their CV worse.
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Yes.
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And so that s what was the the catalyst to have me start writing it.
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And I just started decided I was just going to write my journey first.
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And that s what I did.
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And then the second part of the book.
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Correct.
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It s the second part of the book.
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on purpose.
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And then I got kind of stuck because I really didn t want the book to be about me.
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I really didn t.
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And I still don t.
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But so I let it kind of sit there.
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And then I started realizing because one thing I am good at is I see patterns.
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I can see patterns.
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And then I started realizing, wait a minute, there are some things from my crazy journey that I ve learned that has really been able to silence this imposter syndrome, this feeling of less than I m not good enough.
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I have to outwork everybody else just to be even, those kind of things.
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And so that s when I had six weapons and I called it 5.5.
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And I went to you, Jeffrey, because I knew you would give me the straight scoop.
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on, is this any good?
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Or is this just crap?
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Or is this just something that I should have for my grandchildren?
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And you said, hey, I ve got point five trademarked.
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All right.
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Okay, cool.
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And you said, hey, you need to have a seventh weapon.
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And I knew immediately what the seventh weapon was.
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you know, find somebody outside the jar to help you read the label.
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We all need outside perspective.
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So that was very, very easy.
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And you said, hey, seven, seven is better anyway.
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And I m like, all right, cool.
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So that s how it went.
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And so we finished it in a year.
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But then the last year, we waited and, you know, kind of went down this meandering path of publishers, like, you know, and the reality was, I don t have a million followers, I got denied.
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And
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And the cool thing was when Wiley called me back, thanks to you, and I can t even remember the name of the guy, the second guy that you had call me, he said, we re probably going to regret this, but you don t have a million followers and we have to have a certain amount of following.
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And the fact that I wasn t speaking that much yet on it, I m starting to speak more on it, but nonetheless.
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The journey has been an interesting one.
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But, you know, I m so grateful to you, Jeffrey, in particular, because you are an accomplished author.
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I mean, you ve got five New York Times bestselling books, plus everything else.
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Like you re just an amazing human being.
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Plus, you are number one columnist in all of the business journals.
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When I was running this journals dot com.
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I mean, it s pretty amazing.
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It is.
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Editors hated me because I was more popular than they were.
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Yes, I m sure.
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Let me throw this at you, Gary.
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Normally, I let the guests speak, but I really would like to make this a dialogue.
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Yeah, cool.
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When I started in sales, I was in an MLM thing in the 70s, and they were always saying, fake it until you make it, which is a benchmark of imposter syndrome.
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Big time.
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It just adds fuel to it.
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So what I did was I said, no, I m not going to fake it until I make it.
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I m going to live it in advance.
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Oh, I like that.
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And that discussion changed my entire perspective, added to the fact that I watched the great Glenn Turner movie Challenge to America 200 straight days.
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And I read Napoleon Hill s Think and Grow Rich 10 times, chapter by chapter, report every day.
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So I became a lethal weapon of personal development.
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And I decided I wasn t going to fake it.
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I was just, I was living it, literally living it in advance.
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You couldn t break my attitude.
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And I lived in New Jersey, where nobody has a positive attitude.
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Or if they do, Gary, they refer to it as Tude.
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And the challenge was I looked all around me and everybody else was faking it.
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Yeah.
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And I ll give you a classic example.
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Everybody takes English composition in their first year in college.
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It s almost mandatory.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I would see all these classmates of mine turning in papers that were typewritten and had a binder and had a glass front, you know, plastic.
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Oh, yeah.
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It s all pretty.
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And they would get and this is my podcast so I can say whatever I want.
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They would get a fucking D or D minus.
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And I hand wrote mine, hand wrote my my essays, scratched out words and handed it in and I got an A minus.
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And the teacher said, if you would just recopy your work, I ll give you an A because you re a great writer.
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Yeah, I never did.
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I ended up and that s the that and archery were the only two A s that I got in college.
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Wow, I didn t know that about having good shot.
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Yeah, to quote Woody Allen, it was a series of near misses.
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I majored in football pools and dating.
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But this is the challenge.
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Everybody has a little bit of fake it till you make it.
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But if they would convert that energy to live it in advance, then the imposter syndrome at least wanes.
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It may not go away, but it wanes because you build self-confidence.
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And I think that s the antidote to imposter.
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I think that is a huge antidote.
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But I also think a huge shift for me was to get my eyes off of me and on somebody else.
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That was a huge shift.
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Focus on serving somebody.
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It s weapon number four, actually.
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Focus on serving somebody more than how they perceive you.
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Because this whole fake it till you make it thing is all about perception.
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Correct.
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Perception.
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We re trying to cast a perception, but the problem is, is all of us know this behind the scene reel that is playing in our back, you know, that, and we compare everyone else s show reels with our behind the scenes reels.
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And so we know we may be able to fake somebody else out.
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The problem is we can t fake ourselves out.
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That was the issue.
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And so a huge benefit, you know,
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I mean, all those weapons are really powerful, the seven, I think.
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And it s not just like there s one silver bullet, but that one in particular really helped me get my eyes off of me and just, Gary, focus on serving somebody else.
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Okay, let me throw a thought at you.
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I m really good at what I do.
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I love what I do.
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And I study what I do.
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Yeah, I don t just have a skill.
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I work on my skill every day.
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Yes.
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So I m not focused on myself.
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But I m always working on myself.
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There s a huge difference, isn t there?
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Yeah, huge.
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I don t look in the mirror and go, oh, man, are you fucking handsome?
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I don t that s I m bald.
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I don t I spend like two seconds in the bathroom in the morning going, there it is.
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And other people are putting on makeup and lipstick and bullshit.
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And that s not me.
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Yeah.
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So I simply go to my library and I read or I write or I do something and this is really important for me.
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Yeah.
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I don t think that I can be the best person for other people until I can be the best person for myself.
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Yeah.
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And if you re faking it, then you re not going to you re not being the best person for yourself.
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If you re living it in advance, you re studying it.
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And all you re doing is putting it into practice.
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And to me, that s that s how you have to do it.
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And, you know, I ve been very fortunate in my career to not simply be able to give speeches and write books, but to be a great dad and to be a great granddad.
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And now to be a great, great granddad.
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Really?
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Yeah.
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We just had a baby.
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Oh, how cool.
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OW, but you know, it s still a grand, we ve had several OWs in the family, but they ended up well.
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I mean, the first one was my daughter, Rebecca, who s who now has a physician s assistant daughter is freaking brilliant.
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And she married the guy and they ve been together for
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one year less than than their child is.
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But the bottom line is they worked at it.
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Yeah.
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And you have to work at it.
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There s there s nothing in the book.
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And I want you to have an epilogue that says, hey, fucker, work.
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That s that s right.
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That better than I would.
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But that s that s number eight.
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Work your ass off.
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Yeah, because you re not going to it s not going to you can identify it, which you ve done incredibly well.
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But the follow up book has to be fix it.
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Yeah.
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Well, and what s interesting, though, to I ll just say this, many people that suffer from imposter syndrome, you know, this was coined in the 70s by these two female psychologists that discovered this pattern among high achieving females that they were serving.
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And now they say 70 percent of the population deals with this.
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And it s not just relegated to women, but these
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They are high achievers and I think what I ve seen, especially because I work with a lot of leaders and CEOs in particular, they re driven, and they have success they have you know what everybody else s success and they work their butts off.
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there s this internal drive that oftentimes is like pushing them and driving them versus leading them and compelling them, you know, like drawing them forward.
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They feel driven by this.
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And it was, it s this feeling less than et cetera.
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And so, yeah, there s no excuse for not working, you know, dreams without
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Actually, I agree.
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I totally agree with that.
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But listen, you look in the mirror in the bathroom in the morning and you have two options.
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One is woe is me.
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Right.
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Right.
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The other is, whoa, it s me.
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And so if you look at it from that, those are the only two choices.
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Yeah, I like that.
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Okay.
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And the second thing is, and I think this is just as just as equally as important, you have to believe in yourself before you re going to get other people to believe in you.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And that has nothing to do with faking it.
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That has everything to do with having self confidence.
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Yeah.
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To me, the opposite of imposter syndrome is self confidence.
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There s another dangerous thing and it s called the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is where you have a heightened sense of your abilities that eclipses your true abilities.
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It s this false sense of, and it can get people killed because, oh yeah, I can do that, no problem.
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Yeah.
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And then you fall off a cliff.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Exactly.
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Trying to prove yourself when you don t even have confidence that you can do it.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it s just kind of stupidity, you know, like, yeah.
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It s the last words of a Southerner.
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Hold my beer and watch this.
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Watch this.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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That would be done in Kruger.
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or somebody in a drunken stupor, you know, it could be.
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Okay, so pay attention to this, Dyer.
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Gary Fry is about to give you an answer.
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What can a person who s faking it or has the imposter syndrome about them, what are a couple things they can do?
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Well, I m glad you asked that, Jeffrey, because the first part of this book, this first seven weapons really deal with that.
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And the first one is to just realize you re stinking not alone.
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I mean, an isolation chamber is a really bad place to be.
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And I ve been there many times where you think you re the only one.
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Woe is me.
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Nobody s seen the trouble I ve seen.
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And the reality is we ve all seen trouble.
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all experience difficulties.
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And sometimes just having the courage to admit, this is how I feel to somebody is liberating.
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They can t even do anything about it.
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But to just know that you re stinking not alone.
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That s a huge one.
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I ll give you another one.
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It s weapon number two, and it has to do with what you were talking about, like honing your craft, etc.
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I did this simple T-chart that I call Thrive Wither.
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It s not strengths and weaknesses.
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It s just what makes you come alive, Thrive column, versus what makes you wither, Wither column.
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the stuff that drains your tank, because here s the magic of that one.
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Many times I see people functioning in their wither column because, well, I was told to do that.
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Well, you re the best at pivot tables, but yet you are sick of pivot tables because you went into accounting or something because your parents said you should, or because somebody said you re really good with numbers or whatever, but you hate it.
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Or maybe you re just burned out on it.
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Well, if you can spend more time in your thrive column, the stuff that makes you come alive, that makes you uniquely you and you continue to hone that craft like you ve done, Jeffrey, you ve been an exceptional example of a lifetime learner who is always sharpening the sword.
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Well, when you re doing that, you re alive.
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And guess what?
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When you are thriving and when you feel alive, and it doesn t mean that we still don t clean the toilets and do the stuff that, yeah, we all have to.
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You have to do that.
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You have to do that.
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Absolutely.
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But when you spend so much time in this wither column, all of a sudden it gives rise to the voice of the imposter.
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But when you start and you start delegating or you get really honest about what it is that you love to do, focus more on those kind of things.
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Well, when you re in your joy zone, when you re in your thrive zone, you re not thinking about all your less than you re just too busy having fun.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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I wrote down while you were talking, if you don t love it, you re probably going to be faking it.
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Yes.
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Think about that.
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If you re you re in your diehard, you re in your cubicle, you re in your office, and you fucking hate it.
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So and somebody comes in and goes, everything s fine.
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No problem.
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Come on.
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Come on, get a grip on yourself.
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So I have a couple of other things that I want to make sure that I talk about.
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When you re talking about withering, let s talk about autumn.
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All the leaves on the trees wither.
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But it s also renewal, because when they fall off, new ones grow.
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And don t think of yourself as, oh my God, these leaves are going to die.
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No, no, no.
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New leaves are going to show up tomorrow, or at least by May.
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And you re going to be fine.
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But you have to be able to store your nuts somewhere where you can eat during that that lean time and not lose confidence in the vacuum.
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You haven t gathered anything for for safety.
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You re out there on your own.
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You go, Oh, my God, what was me?
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No, no, dude, you forgot to work.
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Yeah, you forgot this.
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There s one other thing.
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And I think this is important.
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All of the people who have imposter syndrome, in my humble opinion, are people that are trying to do things by example, the women that are running these companies that they re looking at other people.
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And they re saying, what s he doing?
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What s he doing?
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I got the same thing.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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But the people who rise above it are people that do not lead by example.
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They set the standard.
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Taylor Swift sets the standard.
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She is her own country.
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She is her own economy.
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And she got screwed by the people that did her music.
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And she said, fuck you, I ll do it myself because I own it.
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And no kid, no kid buys a Taylor Swift album that doesn t say Taylor s version.
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not one kid.
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So I want you to think about you diehard.
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I want you to think about what do you do that you don t love?
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That s number one.
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Where are you setting the standard for what you re doing?
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Or are you just doing what other people do?
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That s bullshit.
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That is total bullshit.
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So I m, I m looking at this from the perspective of, okay, this is your time.
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This is your, this is your, your opportunity.
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You only have one life and it s not a dress rehearsal.
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It s like the real thing.
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Yeah.
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So, I would, you know, put on your best shoes, put on your best jeans and go rock and roll.
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You don t need a suit anymore.
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That s imposter.
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This is my work attire every day.
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I m wearing a t-shirt, baby.
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I have been wearing a t-shirt since COVID.
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Remember, two weeks to flatten the curve.
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I wore a t-shirt every day for two years and I still do.
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I m going to the phone company.
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I m going to the phone company today to get a new phone.
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Look at my shirt says, don t call me, I ll call you.
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Yeah, you have great t-shirts.
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I m the same way.
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And listen, here s what s so funny.
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I am the only non-CPA and a college dropout.
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Not that I m proud of it, but it s just like, I m going to expose it.
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That s a partner in a regional CPA firm.
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And this is how I show up.
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And I m not trying to be disrespectful.
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I m just free to be who I am now.
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And it s a blessing.
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I am Gary Fry.
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I do not have a pipe up my ass.
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And that s how you have to look at it.
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Their suits, to me, are part of the imposter syndrome.
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Yeah, man.
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You know, it s funny.
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The first day when I went to Bank of America to work, I bought a couple new suits and they had just gone to dress casual, which was funny.
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So I still have one of those suits.
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I still wear it when I go to weddings, but that s about it.
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Exactly.
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Weddings and funerals.
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So I m going to leave you with, this is one other thing that I think is really important.
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It s actually weapon number six.
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And you re an exceptional example of this, Jeffrey, in my opinion.
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But your example with Taylor Swift is exactly that too.
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And it is, celebrate the anything but typical in yourself and other people.
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And what does that mean?
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Well, we were all created anything but typical and our thumbprints prove it.
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Nobody, even identical twins, and I dated three pairs of identical twins before I met my wife, which is hilarious.
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Two identicals and one fraternal.
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None of them have the same thumbprints.
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The identical twins don t have the same thumbprints.
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It s all unique.
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We re all created unique.
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And when we get into trouble is what you were talking about, where we re comparing.
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Well, by by example, well, they set the example.
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No, no, no.
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You can learn from them, but don t try to be them.
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Be uniquely you.
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And man, that is so freeing.
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It s just unbelievable how liberating it is.
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My twins, who are now 51.
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Hold on.
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I think one more example I want to write down.
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I didn t realize you had twins.
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Yeah, I did.
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Twins are 51 years old.
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When they were in the first grade, I walked by their room one morning, and they re at their dresser.
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And one turns to the other and said, you want to be twins today, which meant dress alike, because they re in their peak and repeat.
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But the challenge is that everyone has their own personality traits.
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Everyone has their own characteristics.
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Everyone has their own, literally, their own style.
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And you have to look at this from a standpoint of, I m trying to understand the other person through myself.
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Why do they do that?
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Why do they like tomatoes?
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I don t like tomatoes.
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I thought no one liked tomatoes.
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I don t like white food other than whipped cream.
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Why do other people like, I don t want Alfredo.
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I don t want sour cream.
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I m with you, man.
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Give me marinara, man.
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Every time.
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Okay.
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So, but you have to look at it from a, from a lens that says I accept.
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Yes, yes.
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And celebrate, celebrate it.
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Well, some things that are going on in the world right now are not celebrational, but no, I agree.
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No, no, we don t celebrate evil, but we can celebrate the uniqueness of other people.
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And there are many things to celebrate out there in the midst of this horrific stuff that s going on.
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Okay, so I m growing up and my parents, I never got good grades.
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My, I have a thing here that I look at every day, my six things of life, my five things of life, literally.
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And one of them is Mrs. Robbins.
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Mrs. Robbins was my high school guidance counselor, whose mantra was, you re not living up to your potential.
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You re not, you re much smarter than this.
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You re not getting the same kind of grades that you should.
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And there was a reason that I didn t get good grades.
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I didn t give a shit.
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I didn t, I didn t, you know, I m smart.
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I go home.
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My parents, my little class, I play golf on the weekend.
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I m going to be successful.
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I don t need this shit.
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I don t need this shit.
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Okay.
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So that was my philosophy all the way through college dropout.
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But this is the real challenge.
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One day, my mom said, why can t you be more like Paul Rosenberg?
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Straight A s, gets in Jefferson Medical School with three and a half years of study, comes out a doctor and of total college.
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And this kid was the fucking high school quarterback on the football team, you name it.
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And I said, mom, Paul Rosenberg doesn t get laid.
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And my mother whacked the crap out of me.
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She literally hurt her wrist hitting me, but that was the reality to me.
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I don t want to be like somebody else.
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You cannot be like somebody else and win in this world.
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Yeah, you just can t.
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Yeah, it s a fool s errand.
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And I bought into it for far too long.
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When I first met you, there was a struggle internally employee between you and some other jackass.
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And the guy was jackass.
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And you said, I m just going to go down a different path.
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I respected the shit out of that, because you didn t want to fight the guy, right?
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Ruthless character, literally.
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And I think he s now a waiter at Shoney s, but I m not 100% positive.
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And it s funny, because he still doesn t know that I know everything that he did.
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Oh, wow.
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That s cool.
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He doesn t know that I know exactly what he was doing.
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You have muscles and he s fat.
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But I m challenging you as a diehard, pay attention to yourself and your own greatness.
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And that will allow you to walk among other people and not compare yourself to them.
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Yeah.
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Just don t.
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Because that s
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That s that s where you go.
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Oh, wow.
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You may like a characteristic, but you I promise you, you don t want to trade places.
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Yeah.
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No, the world needs you.
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Yeah.
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Uniquely, you they want your thumbprint on something.
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Yeah.
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So we ll talk about that in our next episode, which we will have with Gary Fry.
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We re going to talk about thumbprints and how to get away from being an imposter until then.
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Do not fake it until you make it live it in advance, even if your ass falls off.
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Thanks for listening to the show.
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Don t forget to like, share.
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Yeah, share with both your friends.
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And subscribe to the podcast.
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And remember, we have a free 22-day sales challenge.
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Just go to getherman.com slash sales challenge to start you on your way.