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This is The Art of Charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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The Art of Charm is where ordinary guys become extraordinary men.
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Welcome to The Art of Charm, I m Jordan Harbinger.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
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Imagine having a mix of experienced mentors teaching you their expertise and packing decades of research, testing, and tough lessons into a curriculum.
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We may not have all the answers, but we do have all the questions.
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Make sure to stay up to date with everything here at the Art of Charm and get some great freebies that we don t or can t share on the show by signing up for the transformation kit at theartofcharm.com.
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If you like what you hear on the show, come hang out with us on the blog.
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We get really in-depth on some of these topics and you can further engage with the AOC team there as well.
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Or if you re new to the show and you wanna find out more about what we teach here at the Art of Charm, you can go to the website and we ll email you our Fundamentals Toolkit.
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That covers topics like body language, nonverbal communication, dating, attraction, persuasion, business networking, public speaking, negotiation, and a whole lot more.
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And we ve got our live programs running every single week here in Los Angeles, California.
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In fact, we ve got guys from all over the world, which shows that no matter where you are, you can make it here if you wanna learn and grow.
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We re sold out a couple months in advance, so if you re thinking about it even a little bit, you should get in touch ASAP by phone or email me, jordanattheartofcharm.com.
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Get some info from us now so you can plan ahead.
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Looking forward to meeting you here at AOC.
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Today we re talking with Coach.me founder Tony Stubblebine.
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We re gonna talk about why coaching is key and how to find a good coach, meditation as a secret weapon for high performance, and why everybody from Kobe Bryant to hedge fund managers are using this in their daily life to get in the zone.
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He s also gonna lead us through a guided meditation so we can kick the day off right.
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Tell us what you do in one sentence.
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Oh, God.
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All right, I m the CEO and founder of Coach Chummy, which is a startup trying to bring great coaching to everyone in the world.
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Great, and you ve been doing this for a long time, right?
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when you and I talked before the show, the idea is, listen, elite performers get coaching, and I kind of want to harp on that for a second, because one of the chief objections that we get when people are looking at Art of Charm and things like that, or other coaching programs, is there s this ego thing that gets in the way, where they re like, ugh, I don t want, first, people are angry that anybody would even suggest that they need coaching in any area of their life,
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especially something like networking or dating or social skills or anything like what we teach here.
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And it s kind of comical because when you talk to like Navy SEALs and ultra high net worth individuals, they re like, where do I sign up for this?
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And then you talk to the guy who s like an entry level CPA and they re like,
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I don t need that, that s for losers, bro.
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And you re like, okay.
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But you coach a lot of elite performers, and by definition, elite performers are getting a lot of coaching.
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You know how I got over my own sort of fear of getting a coach?
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Is that my lead investor said, I ll invest in the company, but I want to give you my executive coach.
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I was like, holy shit, this guy is like,
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founder of two of the top ten most trafficked websites on the internet, he s the CEO of Twitter, he s a multi-billionaire, and he s like, yeah, coaching really is great for me, and I want to protect my investment, why don t I give you my coaching?
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So, first of all, I was like, well, obviously, this is going to be a great coach.
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If I m going to start anywhere, why don t I start with someone who s coaching one of the top entrepreneurs of all time?
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And also, if this guy s using a coach, then, like, I mean, who am I to say, like, I don t need it?
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I mean, I want to be where he is.
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So, of course, I want every advantage that I can get.
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Basically, I find that about a lot of elite performers, is if you tell them, hey, I ve got this advantage, are you interested?
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They re like, hell yeah.
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Of course I m interested.
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Yeah, what I think the low performer hears is, you are faulty in some way, and I m going to fix it.
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And since they have a fixed mindset, instead of, say, a growth mindset, to reference Dr. Carol Dweck, she would say, well, hey, this person is looking at it like, oh, you have failed somehow, or you are generally faulty in some way because you might need to remedy or move up.
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Because they look at growth as sort of a negative,
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something that only the defective need?
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I mean, on the one hand, it is their problem, but there s two reasons I think that problem is so common, is one, we usually say coaching is the secret weapon of elite performers.
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It s their competitive advantage.
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They re not broadcasting it everywhere, because that s how they re winning.
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So there is this little bit of too much secrecy, people don t actually know what it takes to become
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In fact, I think successful people often feed into this idea that their geniuses are very talented or it s an overnight success story.
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And then the other is that we don t have enough examples, right?
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Like it is so uncommon, so rare, so expensive in a lot of ways.
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And so it s just, nobody likes to do things that aren t normal.
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And I think just because of how coaching has been sold in the past, it s just such a luxury that most people never heard of anyone s how to coach.
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And you just, you have to get, you have to get over that.
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Yeah, it s tough to get over, but also it s a self-selecting process, right?
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Like people who have the right mindset to be really successful are at some point gonna be like, oh, maybe I should hire people smarter than me.
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They don t really think of a hire as somebody who s gonna coach them.
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They usually think like, I need to outsource part of what I m doing to somebody else.
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Yeah, you re absolutely right.
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It is a huge mindset thing, and we ve referenced Carol Dweck all the time.
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I just feel like that observation of hers is like so much of success is not your innate talent or the tips and tricks.
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It s just like fundamentally, are you the type of person that s going to be improving day after day, or are you the type of person that s not going to improve unless your boss forces you to?
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And that explains so much of the difference in success
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successes between all of us.
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And now, as the founder of coach.me, you re essentially, tell us about what that is, and then we ll start getting into, well, you can coach us a little bit.
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Yeah, I m looking forward to coaching the audience.
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I think we have some good topics coming up.
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I mean, the essence of it is we just think it s unfair.
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Like, we started getting these stories of the backstories of successful people, and we thought, you know, geez, like, I didn t even know that this existed, and here I am, I m getting my first executive coach after I ve been a CEO for seven years, right?
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Like, that s way too late.
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Yeah, that s some BS, right?
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In sports, at least, it s much more common, you get your coach when you re little, and you get groomed all the way to the professional level.
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If I wanted to be a CEO, I kind of knew that when I was 22.
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Why didn t I get a coach starting when I was 22?
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Just because we re technologists, we re like, oh, I see, there s a way that we could make coaching a lot more accessible.
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If you put coaches online, you get to do all of these special things that makes
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coaching a lot easier to get to.
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It s like you get to measure the performance of the coaches.
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So like we could bring in 10,000 coaches and tell you these 200 are elite coaches and they re the only coaches you re going to see.
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That s basically how we run our platform is we just look at the success rates of their clients and then say, okay, these are the ones that we re going to promote in our directory and these other ones, you know, sorry, see you later.
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Like you re just not very good.
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You shouldn t like no one should ever run into you.
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You should just give up and quit now.
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I mean, it s weird.
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We re a marketplace and so we have two customers.
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We have the coaches and the clients.
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I feel like we re solving a problem on the coaching side which is all coaches struggle to get enough clients.
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And I think it s overall an improvement to say the best coaches have plenty of clients and the worst coaches go out of business.
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a huge improvement for their industry, I m not shy about that at all.
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We want top coaches and if you re not willing to do the work to do that, we d put in work in order to bring you clients.
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We re not going to bring clients to crummy coaches, that s obvious.
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We put a lot of effort into training people, showing people, here s how you could be a top coach, but if you don t follow that direction, of course, we don t want anything to do with you.
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Yeah, I think it s interesting.
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It is an industry fraught with snake oil salesmen and unqualified folks that read on the internet that you can position yourself as an expert and then they suddenly have an e-book or whatever.
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Right, right.
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It s all show and movie online is the first time that anyone actually
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came by and verified who was good and who wasn t.
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The other thing, though, is then we re able to open it up to a much broader world of coaches, and because we can then pick the top ones, we re actually, the prices come down.
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So my executive coach is like slumming it with me at $400 an hour.
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But he could be, I mean, he does more enterprise work, charges $1,000 or more for an hour of his time.
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But we were actually able to get great business coaches who would start working with you for $15 a week.
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I mean, maybe we should be charging $50 or $100 a week, but regardless of what we re charging, we re able to get at that level where most people who care about something could have a coach.
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And then the third part is about accessibility, that a lot of us really don t have access to a coach unless that coach lives in our area, either because we can t meet with them or because we won t even hear about them because so much of it used to be spread via word of mouth.
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And so by moving the coaches online, you have access to the best coach in the world regardless of where you live and regardless of where they live.
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And so it s like,
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I grew up as a runner, a distance runner, and so I happen to know where all the top running coaches are in America.
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There s one in Eugene, Oregon, there s one in Palo Alto at Stanford, there s one in Arizona, and one in Colorado.
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But if you don t live in one of those places, you re going to have access to mediocre at best coaches.
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And so what if you do want the top coach in the world,
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It s our job, and we feel like our job as coaches is to make those top coaches really accessible to you wherever you live.
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Perfect.
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So let s start getting into some actual meat and potatoes.
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I mean, mindfulness, meditation, and things like that used to be kind of a spiritual hippy-dippy thing, at least it was in the 90s when I started.
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Now as a coach, you d mentioned that you see a lot of really just ruthless folks doing this.
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It s funny that you said mindfulness because I actually have in my notes.
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I was like don t say mindfulness say mental strength Okay, meditation is for mental strengthening and this is the whole like I mean, it s fine that you said it But I like I was like reminding myself don t say that this is a shitty buzzword It is also it s a buzzword that resonates with people that already know about meditation
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That s how I always thought about it as something super spiritual.
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My parents were married by their Tai Chi teacher in California.
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So like you can t get hippier than that.
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And I think of them as like, you know, like I think of meditation as something that they would have been doing.
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And then I started running into all of these athletes and business people who meditate.
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Actually, in our board meeting, my board has two really high-level people.
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It has Evan Williams, who is the CEO of Twitter I was talking about earlier, and Bijan Sabet, who was one of the lead investors of Twitter and Tumblr and all these big startups.
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And they always show up at the board a little distracted.
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So early on, I started having them meditate right at the beginning.
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And they love that idea because they already meditate.
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I actually meditate with Ev all the time.
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He has a meditation teacher come into his current company, and I drop in at least once a month to be part of that.
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So here, again, it s like,
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I m meditating with billionaires.
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I m not meditating with people that smell like patchouli oil, right?
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I m meditating with actual capitalists.
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And... Actual, right, people who are not socialists, got it.
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Right.
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Listen, part of my job is to be non-judgmental, is to support everyone no matter where they re coming from.
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But the reason I talk so strongly about meditation is because there s this whole other world that hasn t
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that needs it, that believes in their own performances, are super dedicated to high performance, and they need some way to train their brain.
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How do you train for mental strength?
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And it turns out meditation is far and away the best way to train for it, but if you use the standard meditation language with them, they shut down.
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The other thing that I ve been involved in in the last week, actually, is I just happened to reconnect with
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a middle school basketball teammate of mine.
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Turns out he s created a career as a mental strength trainer for basketball players, and he has led meditations for the last two number one draft picks in the NBA.
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I ve watched video of Andrew Wiggins, who was the number one pick who got traded from Cleveland to Minnesota last year, meditating while my friend Graham Betchart is leading this meditation.
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I love that.
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These are all
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ultra-competitive people that want to play at the highest level, and this is one of the advantages that they re looking for.
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Hey, Art of Charm listeners, I m excited to share a new podcast I ve been absolutely binging.
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All right, now back to Tony Stubblebine.
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Perfect, and why do you think that it has become, without getting too meta on this, why do you think it s become so obviously popular among top performers?
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It just, it goes back to, if you hand a top performer a potential advantage, they re going to try it, right?
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And so there s just, there is enough of a very slow moving word of mouth going around.
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I start to hear it in places that aren t very spiritual.
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Tim Ferriss has a podcast that he started this year, and I m pretty sure the third episode, he interviewed Josh Waitzkin, who s famous for, he s the chess prodigy behind the story, Searching for Bobby Fischer.
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And he went on to be a great martial artist on top of it.
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And Tim asked, what would be your keystone habit for top performance?
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And he said meditation.
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And I loved hearing that, because here s someone who actually takes his own personal success in order as a way to train other top performers, often in business.
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And he talked about he s teaching meditation to hedge fund managers.
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And the thing that hedge fund managers really need to be aware of is their own cognitive bias.
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We all have cognitive biases, right?
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But the trick is,
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becoming aware of when one of those biases are in play, and then adjusting for it.
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So it s easy to know what the adjustments are.
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There s a cognitive bias page on Wikipedia that just lists a ton of them.
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Like it s easy to know what they are, and it s easy to know what the adjustments are, but it s very hard to catch yourself.
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And in meditation,
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There s sort of these three skills that get taught, and all of the spiritual people are like, really push one skill in particular, calmness.
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In fact, I m actually an advisor for a meditation startup called Calm.com.
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Oh, I use that app.
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Is that the app?
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Yeah, do you use it?
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I just started this week, yeah.
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I love it, it s a great app, it s a great way for people to get started meditating.
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It s sort of advertising this one benefit,
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calm.
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And what most people don t realize is that there s two other benefits.
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Essentially, in the way that meditation is most commonly taught, what you do is you focus on your breath.
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And you don t focus 100% on your breath because your mind will wander.
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That is guaranteed that your mind will wander.
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So the two things that happen when your mind wanders is you try to become aware.
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You say, oh, my mind just wandered.
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What was I thinking about?
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And then once you ve become aware, once you ve acknowledged what your mind wandered to, then you bring it back to your breath.
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And that s the control of focus.
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When we train for meditation, we teach it like doing pushups.
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This is pushups for your brain, and the two phases of the pushup are becoming aware,
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and then bringing your focus back to your breath.
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And every time you do that, we consider that one repetition.
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So in fact, it s actually good if your mind wanders a lot, because that means you re getting in a lot of reps.
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It s like going to the gym and maybe some really blissed out dude who s meditating, his mind only wanders three times, so he just got three reps in.
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You, you re distracted as hell.
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You sit down for 10 minutes, your mind wandered 40 times.
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Well, a lot of people go into it thinking, well, my mind is wandering, so that s bad.
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what we always try to convince people of is no, no, no, that s good.
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You got 40 reps in where this other, you know, slow thinking dude, I got three, be happy, like feel like you won.
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And then that like awareness and control of focus that those are two skills that you end up bringing to every aspect of your life, to personal relationships, to business relationships, to productivity.
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It just all feeds into whatever, whatever it is that you re really trying to accomplish.
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I ll tell you right now, if getting distracted is how you win at meditation, I am gonna be the champion of meditation.
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That s good.
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I mean, we actually, we ve researched this, because I think we ve watched 85,000 people try to start meditating.
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you know, we looked into it, we surveyed, like, who s succeeding and why and who s failing and why.
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And 100% of the people that are failing are saying that their mind wandered, therefore they re not good at it.
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You know, it s like anyone who actually understands what meditation is is like, no, no, no, no, that doesn t actually mean that.
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So the whole failure mode is just based on a misconception about what to expect.
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And if you expect your mind to wander, you know, you ll be able to get through the meditation.
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And by the way, for people listening,
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A meditation when you re starting out should be like three minutes.
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It s not like half an hour.
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It s not an hour.
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That s really hard.
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Three minutes is great.
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I started meditating in the 90s because I had a karate instructor who was kind of into it, but he was a crap teacher when it came to meditation.
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He was really good at the karate thing.
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And the problem was he was like, you shouldn t be thinking about anything.
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Start with 40 minutes.
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And I m like, wait a minute.
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I ve got to sit still for 40 minutes and not think about anything?
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I literally don t think I ve ever succeeded at that in my whole life.
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Well, nobody has, and this is actually my meditation teacher who I use in person most often, this guy Will Kabat-Zinn.
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People might know as the last name Kabat-Zinn.
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His father, John Kabat-Zinn, basically created the mindfulness movement in America.
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He s like the biggest name in mindfulness.
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And his son turned out to also be in the space and to be great at it.
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And he s the one who teaches meditation three days a week at the startup that happens to be in the building that I m in.
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And so his take on that is, if you sit down for 40 minutes and your mind doesn t wander, go to a hospital.
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Yeah.
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Something s gone desperately wrong inside your head.
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That s excellent, I think that s important because I guarantee you there s people listening right now that are like, wait a minute, I m supposed to start with three to five minutes and my mind is actually supposed to wander and that s what we re training?
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh my gosh, because I think people who maybe aren t doing the whole Zen thing don t think about anything, but they re even just trying to think about only the color blue or whatever it is.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then you go, wait a minute, isn t there something in that?
2
SPEAKER_01
No, no, I got the laundry out.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I fail, start over.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re gonna hate meditation more than paying your taxes if you treat yourself like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
You basically, you ve defined meditation in a way where you re guaranteed to fail, and therefore, obviously, it s not going to be fun, and you re not going to feel like you re doing well.
2
SPEAKER_01
Excellent.
2
SPEAKER_00
The actual honest definition is something, it s almost impossible to fail at.
2
SPEAKER_00
Did you sit down?
2
SPEAKER_00
Did you catch yourself thinking about something else even once?
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, sometimes I ll find myself in a meditation and I ll be like, wow, I ve just been thinking about my lunch meeting for five minutes.
2
SPEAKER_00
But as long as I caught it, I got one rep in.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s really common.
2
SPEAKER_00
I am always trying to name what I think about.
2
SPEAKER_00
And rehearsing for future conversations in my day is like the number one thing that I think about.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the number two thing is food.
2
SPEAKER_01
Nice, yeah, perfect.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, I can join the club on that one.
2
SPEAKER_01
Again, I ve heard about the mindfulness meditation thing a lot lately, and I m like, oh, I used to do that.
2
SPEAKER_01
And people try to go, oh, it s the only way to stay focused.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, I have no problem staying focused during days.
2
SPEAKER_01
But controlling my emotions, I was like, well, shit, why did anybody tell me about that method, for example.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because I m like, oh my gosh, I overdrafted this one checking account which cost ten bucks that I can easily get refunded, but now I m like sweating, and I m like, I ve got to remember to do that tomorrow morning.
2
SPEAKER_01
Why am I stressing about this?
2
SPEAKER_01
Or, oh crap, I accidentally spilled some of my drink.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I ve got to clean it up.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, my night is ruined.
2
SPEAKER_01
Wait a minute, let s get real.
2
SPEAKER_01
The reality is when you re running a small business and you manage a lot of people and stuff, there are days where you re just losing your ish, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s when meditation comes in and mindfulness and things like that come in really handy because you have the ability to go, oh, wait a minute, that s not that important.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because bringing your mind back, those reps translate directly into real world control over yourself.
2
SPEAKER_00
Did you read the book Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman?
2
SPEAKER_01
I have not.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, his basic premise is that you have two primary modes of decision-making.
2
SPEAKER_00
One is very conscious and rational, and that s the pro of it, and the con is that it s slow-moving and takes a lot of effort.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then, more commonly, you have this sort of emotional, subconscious-level thought process that you re not totally aware of, and that s driving a lot of your decisions.
2
SPEAKER_00
So my standard example is,
2
SPEAKER_00
If I don t have lunch plans, what I ll do is I ll leave the office and I ll go out to lunch and that decision is made by my stomach, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
But if I have thought about if on Sunday, I was like, well, how do I want to eat this week?
2
SPEAKER_00
I ll be making this really rational planned out decision like, well, this is what is important for my diet and for my energy.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so these are the meals
2
SPEAKER_00
that I should be getting and this is what I should be eating.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so those are these like two modes of thought.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so the way that meditation plays into this, and it ends up showing up in so many different situations, is A, you want to become aware of that subconscious thought process.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then B, you want to kick it up to your prefrontal cortex where all your rational thought is going on.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then once you do that, it s almost trivial to say, oh, you know, I ll just call the bank and get my $10 refunded.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then as soon as you ve become aware of it and controlled your focus, it makes it really easy for you to put it down.
2
SPEAKER_00
And dealing with anxiety, dealing with emotions, like over-trivial things, just ends up being this case that comes up where you re just using your meditation skills to get over it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and the problem is a lot of people go, well, you know, I get over my anxiety eventually, why build a skill around it?
2
SPEAKER_01
And I ll tell you right now, just being in business, and I don t even have kids yet, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s a super, super useful skill, because you can t really focus fully on other things if you re worried about dumb stuff all the time, and it will add up and you will boil over by five, six, seven p.m.
2
SPEAKER_01
every day.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, going back to my parents, they did split up at one point and my dad ended up remarrying and having more kids.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I always thought my dad was like the calmest, most rational person in the world.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then only later as I watched my sister grow up with him, did I realize the only reason he was able to hold his shit together with me is because he only saw me every other weekend.
2
SPEAKER_00
He had plenty of energy.
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SPEAKER_00
And then you d kind of watch my sister just wear him down.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so this super calm, rational person that I d always looked up to growing up, suddenly I m seeing him lose control, and I was like, oh, right.
2
SPEAKER_00
because it takes a lot of energy, and yeah, absolutely, when you re a parent, I think you re gonna be happy that you have a meditation background to fall back on.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s very, very handy, and without going too much into it, every time you boil over and you, like, holler at somebody, you re putting a nail into, what s that analogy, like, every time you get mad, you re putting nails into walls, and even when you pull out the nail, the hole is still there?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that s a good analogy.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve never heard that before, but that s a really good analogy.
2
SPEAKER_00
You still carry that cost.
2
SPEAKER_00
No matter how you deal with it, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, it s some sort of fable, and I can t remember exactly what it is, but every time you get mad, you re hammering a nail into a wooden barn in the fable.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re hammering a nail into that board.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then when you go back and apologize and you re over it and you have a good laugh over it or whatever to get the other person s mind off it, you pull the nail out.
3
SPEAKER_01
But the hole is still there.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so looking at anybody who s had a tyrannical father or a bad relationship, that person, they might have forgiven that person, everything might be cool, but those holes are still there.
3
SPEAKER_01
You still remember the time they chatted in your Cheerios, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, I like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love like the mood repair, the emotional repair, the control that you get from this.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s more so than just like, oh, you can focus better.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like nebulous benefits are not gonna get people to do this.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that word mood repair, I ran into that with a procrastination researcher, actually.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, this was like the world s premier researcher on procrastination.
3
SPEAKER_00
He s an actual academic.
3
SPEAKER_00
And when he looked into procrastination, he basically felt like
3
SPEAKER_00
He called it short-term mood repair.
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SPEAKER_00
Your subconscious is telling you that your next task is going to be boring, or that you don t really know how to do it, or you re not smart enough to do it or something, and so you don t do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
But you never once actually rationally analyze, is that true?
3
SPEAKER_00
And so he really liked meditation as a skill to get you out of that, because you re like, okay, I have to
3
SPEAKER_00
I have to hire a new accountant.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I actually have a recommendation for the accountant.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just have to email them and set up a meeting.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I don t really, I m not excited to talk to this accountant.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I m procrastinating on it.
3
SPEAKER_00
But as I describe this to you, I m like, dang, this could take me two minutes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Why don t I just do it?
3
SPEAKER_00
I know I have to.
3
SPEAKER_00
Those moods are tripping you up all over the place.
3
SPEAKER_00
And this is true for everyone.
3
SPEAKER_00
Even high performers have all sorts of goofy things going on in their heads.
3
SPEAKER_01
All right, back to the show.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I love the idea of mood repair, or emotional repair, but yes, it s a double-edged sword, right, because procrastination can also be the result of short-term mood repair, just to try to overcome anxiety by ignoring something, but you can also become aware of the anxiety that you re trying to repair
3
SPEAKER_01
when you do the meditation stuff and you ve got that skill set, and then instead of having the harmful behavior, like, oh, I ll do it later, right now I gotta organize my closet by alphabetical order of books or whatever, instead of doing that behavior, you go, wait, wait, wait, I m clearly trying to repair some sort of anxiety, let s attack the root cause, or figure that out, or manage that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Suddenly, you re putting a really big project on your plate.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, I m not doing this because I have a terrible relationship with my parents.
3
SPEAKER_00
Let me deal with that first.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s too much.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, this is one of those things that s like, theoretically, that could happen, but statistically, it s almost always some trivial thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, of course.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, so I like the idea of connecting meditation to presence, focus, productivity, decision making, and the bias things that you talked about with the hedge fund guys.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because I think meditation as a business skill is much more appealing than meditation as a route to enlightenment and here s some patchouli perfume.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, certainly it s what got me in the door.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you might get in the door this way with meditation and then have a spiritual experience.
3
SPEAKER_00
But regardless of whether that s true or even a goal, the initial impact is very immediate and very performance-based.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so all of us sort of pragmatic people who are just trying to achieve more with our life, it s almost the fundamental skill for practically everything that you re doing.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can t think of anything that I care about where meditation doesn t come into play.
3
SPEAKER_00
If I m fighting with my girlfriend, it s like, wait a second, I could just take a deep breath here and say, well, I m not giving in on some point because I m ashamed.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then I think of that and I m like, oh, why don t I just give in because I want to get out of this fight so we can go back to the good stuff.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I d use it at work.
3
SPEAKER_00
I use it getting ready for podcasts.
3
SPEAKER_00
If something happens during the podcast, I m like, wow, I shouldn t have said that or I said that the wrong way.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just like, I let that, I acknowledge that thought, let it go, move on to the next thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just, honestly, I can t think of any place where this doesn t come up.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you actually have a pretty unique story about this stuff really saving your bacon.
3
SPEAKER_01
You want to tell us about that?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, this is actually a great example of how to use meditation for something that people wouldn t normally talk about.
3
SPEAKER_00
I actually used it as the foundation for what my coach and I call developing a killer instinct.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because when I started this company, I almost put it out of business almost immediately afterwards.
3
SPEAKER_00
we got it up and running.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then I thought, oh, we should raise more money for it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I started doing the circuit here.
3
SPEAKER_00
So in Silicon Valley, we re all funded by investors who are called venture capitalists out here.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you hear me say venture capitalists, you should basically think like, you know, finance guy, like Wolf of Wall Street, like a real like stereotype of that type of person.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I m the opposite person.
3
SPEAKER_00
I grew up in California.
3
SPEAKER_00
I told you my parents were married by their Tai Chi teacher.
3
SPEAKER_00
I am super thoughtful and rational and honest.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I would go into these meetings and invariably, every single meeting I had, they either told me to my face or they told me back channel through the person that had introduced me to them that product seemed great, team seemed great, but Tony, me personally,
3
SPEAKER_00
didn t seem like CEO material.
3
SPEAKER_00
He seemed too soft to be a CEO.
3
SPEAKER_00
How am I going to fix this?
3
SPEAKER_00
People literally think I m too weak to be a CEO.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s almost the worst thing you could hear.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was ready for this product will never work or
3
SPEAKER_00
there s not enough traction, like those things are all very solvable.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just didn t think people were going to attack me so personally.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I went back to my coach and I asked him, you know, why are people reacting this way?
3
SPEAKER_00
And he goes, Tony, people think you re soft because you are soft.
3
SPEAKER_00
And like, that s like, it s nice to have the truth of it.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I mean, that s even scarier for me, because I really wondered, can I change?
3
SPEAKER_00
And what does change even look like?
3
SPEAKER_00
Do I have to be some super aggressive person?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, I think of people that are yelling all the time.
3
SPEAKER_00
Is that what they re looking for?
3
SPEAKER_00
Do I need to be Larry Ellison, who is like, someone I, you know, he has this famous quote, it s not enough for me to win, everyone else has to lose.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, like, that s just not really who I am.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I was even debating,
3
SPEAKER_00
do I want to become that person because I kind of hate those people.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so what my coach said is, I can t fix you overnight, but we could probably fix you in a couple of months.
3
SPEAKER_00
So thankfully I had another option rather than raising money from those VCs.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I pulled back and I just started working on myself.
3
SPEAKER_00
And one of the first things I did is I got sent to a meditation retreat and
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if you watched Mad Men, but in the last episode, Don Draper is hanging out at this hippie retreat, which is actually, it was filmed at this place, Esalen, which is this really famous mindfulness institute here in California.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that s where I got sent.
3
SPEAKER_00
some of the people there were exactly as you would expect like really like their lives were ruled by crystals and astrology and you know very very hippie but some of the people there had an incredible strength to them and that s what I latched on to I thought well maybe this is who I could become
3
SPEAKER_00
become.
3
SPEAKER_00
Rather than be ultra-aggressive, maybe there s a different type of strength that I could have, which essentially now I describe it to people as free of weakness.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s what was happening when I was going into all these investors is that they were thinking, wow, this guy is going to fold
3
SPEAKER_00
And now when I meet with investors, nobody thinks that.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m not yelling, but I also have this incredibly firm foundation that comes from knowing who I am, knowing what s important to me, being aware of
3
SPEAKER_00
Any of the emotional triggers that happen when you re in a high-pressure meeting and being able to deal with them So, you know I feel like that s the strength that let me actually turn this into a company if I wasn t able to develop that We would have no investors
3
SPEAKER_01
Interesting, that s actually quite fascinating.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s funny that you were resisting it initially, because you thought you were gonna end up being too Larry Ellison, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
And not enough Lululemon or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but you were able to kind of balance that.
3
SPEAKER_01
The fact is, now that you can control it, you don t have to be Larry Ellison, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
I think this is really applicable to a lot of people.
3
SPEAKER_00
One of the other things my coach told me is there s a really common pattern, which is the thing that got you there is now the thing that s holding you back.
3
SPEAKER_00
So my day-to-day life, the reason that I was successful in the first place is that I m really good at collaborating with people on product development.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that doesn t require yelling.
3
SPEAKER_00
It requires being a good listener, very creative, very thoughtful, very data-driven, very honest with myself and with the people
4
SPEAKER_00
around me.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so that still is my day to day.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that s basically what I do when I come into the office.
4
SPEAKER_00
But every now and then I needed to have a different type of strength.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so that sort of that collaborative nature was holding me back as I tried to make the leap into being a CEO of a much bigger company.
4
SPEAKER_02
So you ve got some practical stuff for the folks listening out there.
4
SPEAKER_02
I d love to get into that as well, because I think it does pay for people to really get a handle on this skill set, because it is a business skill and a life skill, not just a weird sort of spiritual hippy-dippy thing that is trending in Silicon Valley.
4
SPEAKER_02
I know you ve got meditation coaches and things like that at coach.me slash meditation.
4
SPEAKER_02
You ve got some guided meditation that they can check out for free, and then of course there s coaching available on there, but can you lead us through a little guided meditation right here?
4
SPEAKER_02
If you re driving though, don t close your eyes, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
All right, let s do it.
4
SPEAKER_00
All right, so the basics is sit down.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you can t sit down, lie down.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you can lie down, stand up.
4
SPEAKER_00
There s no, this isn t a requirement.
4
SPEAKER_02
Okay, if you re walking to work right now, don t lay down and don t sit down.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m gonna ask you to close your eyes, so probably walking is not the right thing to do here.
4
SPEAKER_02
No walking, no driving, no controlling heavy machinery or moving around at all at this point.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I want everyone to get comfortable and close your eyes.
4
SPEAKER_00
And the first thing is now that your eyes are closed,
4
SPEAKER_00
What sounds do you hear around you?
4
SPEAKER_00
And I want you to name those sounds.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I want you to name them in a very specific way.
4
SPEAKER_00
I want you to use a sentence structure.
4
SPEAKER_00
I am aware that.
4
SPEAKER_00
I am aware that I can hear the air conditioner for a building.
4
SPEAKER_00
I am aware of the ticking of the clock.
4
SPEAKER_00
Take a couple seconds and say, what are you aware of?
4
SPEAKER_00
I m aware of a truck driving past me right now.
4
SPEAKER_00
Now that you ve done that, we re gonna do a body check-in.
4
SPEAKER_00
I want you to start at the top of your head.
4
SPEAKER_00
What does the top of your head feel like?
4
SPEAKER_00
What does your face feel like?
4
SPEAKER_00
What does your neck feel like?
4
SPEAKER_00
Is it tense?
4
SPEAKER_00
Is it relaxed?
4
SPEAKER_00
And now going out to your shoulders and your arms, how do your forearms feel?
4
SPEAKER_00
How do your hands feel?
4
SPEAKER_00
Are your hands tense or are they relaxed?
4
SPEAKER_00
How does your chest feel?
4
SPEAKER_00
How does your stomach feel?
4
SPEAKER_00
How do your legs feel?
4
SPEAKER_00
Have you worked out recently?
4
SPEAKER_00
Are the muscles in your legs tired?
4
SPEAKER_00
Do they feel fresh?
4
SPEAKER_00
How do your calves feel?
4
SPEAKER_00
How do your feet feel?
4
SPEAKER_00
Can you feel your feet touching the ground?
4
SPEAKER_00
That s a body scan.
4
SPEAKER_00
You can do that for yourself next time you meditate.
4
SPEAKER_00
The next step is what we ve been talking about, the awareness loop.
4
SPEAKER_00
I want everyone to just start breathing.
4
SPEAKER_00
Breathe naturally, but become aware of your breath.
4
SPEAKER_00
Breathe in, breathe out.
4
SPEAKER_00
Breathe in, breathe out.
4
SPEAKER_00
Just think about your breath and actually count your breath.
4
SPEAKER_00
Every complete breath is one.
4
SPEAKER_00
So in, out, one.
4
SPEAKER_00
In, out again, that s two, three, four.
4
SPEAKER_00
When I m meditating for myself, usually I count to 30 or 40.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s about three or four minutes for me.
4
SPEAKER_00
It gets me through most of my commute.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so now as you count for yourself, just notice, did your mind switch off to something else?
4
SPEAKER_00
Are you thinking about what you re going to do after this podcast?
4
SPEAKER_00
Someone that you re going to talk to?
4
SPEAKER_00
An email that you re going to write?
4
SPEAKER_00
A meal that you re going to eat?
4
SPEAKER_00
Are you thinking about my voice?
4
SPEAKER_00
Do you like it?
4
SPEAKER_00
Do you not like it?
4
SPEAKER_00
Name that thought.
4
SPEAKER_00
Use that same sentence structure we used for the sounds.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m aware
4
SPEAKER_00
I m aware that I m rehearsing for a conversation afterwards.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then once you finish that sentence, bring your focus back to the breath.
4
SPEAKER_00
In, out, in, out, counting.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then once you get to 40,
4
SPEAKER_00
Just relax.
4
SPEAKER_00
You re done.
4
SPEAKER_00
Let your mind go blank for a second.
4
SPEAKER_00
At your own pace, come out of the meditation.
4
SPEAKER_00
Open your eyes.
4
SPEAKER_00
I like to stretch my arms a little bit if I m not in public.
4
SPEAKER_00
If I am in public, I just open my eyes.
4
SPEAKER_00
And there you are.
4
SPEAKER_00
We re done.
4
SPEAKER_02
Excellent.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s good stuff, and of course, you know, it s easier probably to do this stuff in the morning and just kind of bank it, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so I mean, literally, I use that script, I do a sound scan, a body scan, and then count to 30 or 40 on BART, which is a subway here in San Francisco, with my arms looped through my bag so that no one runs off with it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I basically hope that everyone around me just thinks I m sleeping.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s what I mean, that meditation is something that anyone should be able to do, and you can actually fit it into your day really easily.
4
SPEAKER_00
And what my meditation teachers call what I m doing, the consistency of it, just priming the pump.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ve had longer meditation sessions, but by having that short one every day, it just means it s easier for me to get at the skills of meditation.
4
SPEAKER_02
Is there anything else you want to leave us with before we let you go?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think the main thing, we talked a lot about meditation, which is probably the fifth or sixth most popular thing that people get coached on, and coached on me.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the meta discussion was all about performance and business.
4
SPEAKER_00
And probably half of what people are hiring coaches for on our platform is business and leadership coaching.
4
SPEAKER_00
So for everyone listening, if you do want a team of people supporting your own achievements in life, just go to the website, CoachDemny, and that ll get you started on that path.
4
SPEAKER_02
Thank you so much, man.
4
SPEAKER_02
Much appreciated.
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And of course, we ll have the app, Calm, linked in the show notes.
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We ll have coach.me linked in the show notes, as well as some of the resources and guided stuff that we touched on here.
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And so if you re driving and you want to do it later, you can even download some of these things at coach.me slash meditation.
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Thanks so much, Tony, much appreciated.
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I m really serious, this is a weapon, right?
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And I m just glad we got to touch on it from that instead of like, clear your mind, clear your soul, which is all good and fine, I mean, that s cool, but at the end of the day, if I m trying to make a bunch of money or build something that s gonna be my legacy, I m less worried about cleaning my mind, cleaning my soul, but now that I know it can help with those things, I m in.
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Right, that s awesome.
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I mean, it s an honor to be here and I hope people learn something from it.
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Interesting stuff, love the guided meditation at the end.
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Kind of interesting, and the Calm app that I use has a lot of that stuff.
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Five minutes in the morning, kind of just laying around in my bed doing it.
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I think it works for focus and it definitely works for emotional control if that s your bag.
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Show feedback and guest suggestions.
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The show s a fanarchy.
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It s run by you.
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We rely on you to help keep our finger on the pulse.
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So if you know someone who s a good fit for the show, let me know.
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I m Jordan at theartofcharm.com.
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And if you enjoyed this, don t forget to thank Tony on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as some of the guided meditations and other resources mentioned on the show.
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You can tap our album art and most mobile podcast players to see the show notes right on your phone.
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I m also on Twitter, and that ll be linked in there as well.
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I post a lot of articles and insights and other stuff.
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Bootcamp details for our live programs, bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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Remember, we re sold out a few months in advance, so if you re thinking about it a little bit, get in touch now, get some info from us so you can plan ahead.
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Also on the website is the blog with tons of amazing articles and the AOC team is there as well.
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Subscribe on iTunes, write us a nice review, check us out, we ve got mobile apps as well, and when you write us a review, we ll love you forever, that much I guarantee.
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Special thanks to the Jasons for their help in production of the Art of Charm podcast.
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Go ahead and tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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Now have a great week, and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and everything for the extraordinary man at theartofcharmpodcast.com.