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Hi, it s Elise Lunen, host of Pulling the Thread.
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I m thrilled to welcome today s guest, my friend Jackie Leonardini, who can talk about a nebulous healing art in a way that makes a lot of sense.
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Hi, it s Elise Lunen, host of Pulling the Thread.
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On this show, we pull apart the web in which we all live to understand who we are and why we re here.
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Pulling the Thread is about big questions.
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Why we do what we do, how we can understand our own experiences within a larger spiritual and historical context, the ways in which we might begin to understand ourselves and each other better, and what s required to heal ourselves and our world.
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I ll be joined in conversation by luminaries and wise elders, those who have laid tracks on their work and lives to help us bring meaning and understanding to a world that often feels chaotic and overwhelming.
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My hope is that these conversations spark moments of resonance and plant tiny seeds of awareness so that we might all collectively learn and grow.
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A loving being isn t domineering and a loving being is not going to judge you and certainly isn t going to test you.
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A loving being, a loving energy, and you can call that energy God, or again, it doesn t matter to me what people call it.
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When you call in forces of love, it is forces of love.
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What does love want?
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Love wants for you what you want for yourself.
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Love wants to support you in ways that are in grace and patience.
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And so when you call it, it s coming in and saying, how can I help you?
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What do you need?
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How can I support you in the light?
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It s not gonna say, oh, you know what?
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I know you really wanted this, but too bad.
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But oftentimes, you know, we think that
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we get tested by the divine universe no we don t we get tested by the shadow are you going to come and agree with me again that you re less than are you going to come and agree with me again that you should be afraid and that that s when the answer has to say no i m actually going to agree with the fact that i can trust in my own capability because i m a divine being of the light and when i tune into those energies there s a whole force field of energy that is well that is coming and welcoming me
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and also joining me in my intention.
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So says Jackie Leonardini, a highly clairvoyant energy healer.
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I originally met Jackie through my friend Casey Crown, a trauma therapist.
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The duo host WellSoul workshops several times a year and while I ve never been to one, many friends have gone and they tell me they are life-changing.
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Specifically because the combination of Casey and Jackie s wisdom and expertise addresses each person on every level.
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When you work with Jackie, she explains that we all have intuitive gifts and that they re a skill to develop and not something that some people have and others don t.
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And yes, we may live in very material bodies with very complex minds, but we re all animated by energy, energy that s highly influenced by the world and specifically other people.
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Understanding this is the first step toward keeping ourselves well.
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Over the years, I ve worked with Jackie a lot on the idea of fear and how this animating and very human idea gets its power.
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She has a lot to say about this, as you ll hear in today s conversation.
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Energy healing is nebulous and confusing, but hopefully Jackie s framework will give a context to make it all more palpable and easy to access in our lives.
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She s even designed an app called MySoulVibe, which uses the quality of your voice to track your energy.
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Okay, let s get to our conversation.
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First of all, I m always, whenever I see you, I m always struck by your glow and beauty.
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And I know when I first, I thought I was older than you, you jerk.
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But how, how did you get into this?
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I actually don t know.
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Oh, so it was very interesting of a dear friend of our family.
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He was diagnosed with glioblastoma when he was age 11.
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And.
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And so his, his family and his dad, who s a cardiologist, they decided that, you know, we re not going to do the Western medicine.
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We re going to do energy medicine.
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We re going to do alternative medicine because we think that s our best shot.
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And so when Will was 16, so.
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He had been going and he s been going to retreat and working with an energy medicine practitioner.
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And that was what they believed was, you know, keeping him healthy, that and, you know, being vegan and, and kind of a holistic approach.
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And he invited me.
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one time to go with him.
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And he goes, will you come with me and sit in an energy in a current?
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And I m like, and I m the kind of personality I m like, what?
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That sounds cool.
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Yeah.
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What s it?
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I didn t even know what he meant by current.
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Like I didn t like process it through.
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Like he meant like these waves of energy that were being held this on this crystal in this certain place by all these people.
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Right.
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I had no idea.
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And I m like, yeah, sure.
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I ll go with you.
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So I went with him and I had this visceral experience and I wasn t a big meditator at the time or, you know, I ve always been spiritual, but not really, not really into the mindfulness practice at all.
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And I sat there and six hours was the meditation.
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And while I was there, I had all these visions and I had all these sensations and I just felt like, like I walked out of there going, Whoa, there s something really to this.
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This is something more.
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This is how you tap into source.
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And it was really incredible.
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And when I walked out.
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A gentleman walked up to me and said, I m a medium here.
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And during the meditation, I got a message for you.
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And I said, oh, that s interesting.
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And you know, ha ha ha, kind of happy go lucky way that I m just like, sure, okay.
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And he s like, you re meant to be a healer.
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Do you know that?
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And I m like, me?
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And he s like, yes, you have a very strong gift.
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And I said,
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I said, listen, I drink Sauvignon Blanc and read People Magazine by the pool.
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I really, really don t think I am any type of magical healer, you know, at all.
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And my sister-in-law was there at the time.
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She s like, yeah, no.
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And then my best friend was there and she s like, yes, you are.
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You ve got to pursue this.
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And I m like, this is just, you know, come on.
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Well, when I left there, it kind of stuck.
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And I started to study and I studied with Denise Lin.
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And then I went on to go to energy medicine school through the Berkeley Psychic Institute with one of their it was a private session.
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And so I did that for a couple of years.
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And then a friend said, Will you come to my house and
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and get the ghosts out.
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And I m like, okay, sure.
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Again, I m always like, yeah, okay.
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I haven t done this for anybody else but myself, but why not?
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And so off I flew to Las Vegas and, you know, cleared their house.
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And we, you know, at that time I used a lot of alchemy.
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So I use salt and sage and essential oils.
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And, you know, I had my feather and my bell and I was like, you know, here I am.
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And that was nine years ago.
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And then that was it from that day.
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The next thing I knew I was, you know, booked and at everybody s friend s house.
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And I started to do this professionally.
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So I kind of fell into it a little bit.
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How is the kid with glioblastoma?
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He is 24 years old, and he s Wow, Jesuit priest.
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And he is, you know, the, the tumor is still there.
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However, it hasn t grown.
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And, you know, he, he continues to live a very clean and healthy lifestyle and prayer and energy.
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You know, when we talk about energy, everything is energy.
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were electromagnetic beings.
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And when you attune to those force fields of love, you know, which I call divine energy fields, that is where our wellbeing is found.
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And so, you know, he really focuses his attention on attuned.
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to his wellness and to the energy of the earth and the divine that supports him.
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And so he s damaged.
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What a beautiful story.
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Yeah.
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That s not the first story I ve heard like that.
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There s a woman named Ani Damamyel who has a beautiful product line.
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She s British.
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She s a total witch, like the most loving, beautiful.
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She chants into her oils and she s been living with a, I don t know if she had glioblastoma, but she lives with a brain tumor.
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She has sailed around the world.
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I mean, it s amazing and stunning.
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She doesn t really talk about it.
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It s not a secret, but it s not.
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Yeah, she s an incredible, I think, healer.
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She also puts people on a table, if you ever have a chance to see her.
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She s in the UK.
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She s in the UK, but she comes here sometimes.
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But just like a beautiful person.
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I feel that way about you as well.
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There are certain, and I just want to say that too, because I feel like, and we ve talked about this, I ve made videos about some of our conversations.
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When you work with energy, and we re going to get into all of that, including how we do it for ourselves, be careful.
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I feel like we are so quick to outsource to other people, healers, et cetera.
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And you really want to make sure, one, never outsource your knowing, never outsource your sovereignty, and be really careful about who you let into your field and who you give access to.
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And I want to talk about that, too.
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I ll put that in the parking lot, agreements, because this is a big part of your work, unconscious agreements.
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unconscious agreements, but what you just said cannot be said enough.
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And just to kind of elaborate on that a little bit, you know, we are embodied in order to gain seniority over our energy field.
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We re here, from my experience and estimation of like, working with people and watching energy evolve.
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We re here to hold seniority and to hold it in the light.
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So
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any type of practice or any type of healing that we re doing, if it s taking you further away from what you know to be true for yourself, then that s not the direction that we re meant to go in.
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We want to be in a relationship
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And it s important we are relational beings we are meant to be one within the oneness so we re meant to help each other heal.
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So when two people work together on a certain, you know, intention, it s magnified, you know, beyond our belief and so.
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It s wonderful to always get support.
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I get support.
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I work with a healer every week, sometimes twice a week because of the nature of my business.
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But that healer and I are working together and that healer and I are helping me see with my own clarity.
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And I have seniority.
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No one is an expert in your life.
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You are the expert.
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And if you just kind of think of it that way,
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then you ll keep yourself safe, right?
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And I always say to people, when you re working with somebody, someone will say, well, I have an intuitive head or, you know, yeah, I really know this for you.
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I always say, well, where is that coming from?
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Right?
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I don t just go, oh,
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Okay.
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Oh, tell me your intuition.
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I don t know what, which frequency of energy that person s tapping into.
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And so it s so important to say, set an intention.
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You know, I would like to have information that is for my highest and best good and the highest and best good of all concerned.
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And that information may only come from
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love, or divine light, however you want to put it.
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But the frequency is a pure unconditional wavelength of love.
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And you know, the universe has a lot of different frequencies of energy.
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And so I always say and I was taught early on, and it was one of the greatest gifts that someone s ever shared with me is go straight to source.
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we don t need an intermediary.
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We need to build our own relationship with those divine frequencies of energy that exist all around us.
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And they are in different forms of entities and whatever entity that you believe is an entity of love that you feel connected to, but it s gotta be the source meaning love.
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And whenever that s present, then you re safe.
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It is light that keeps us safe.
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So when you say, or when I say, you know, you really want to pay attention to who you re working with, that s not meant to put fear.
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That s meant to say, tune in to where the light is and be very directional and very attentive to that
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type of energy and it will show up for you and that in itself will keep you safe.
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Yeah.
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And I want to talk about light and darkness because you also said something really profound to me.
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We were talking about my anxiety about being seen, which is something that I know I share with a lot of people, a lot of women.
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And there are reasons, you know, I write about this a lot in the chapter on pride and my book, but there are a lot of reasons for us to be
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fearful of being seen and you said to me we actually have this reversed in our minds when there s a spotlight on what you re doing
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you re actually a beacon for other women to join you.
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It s when we re scared into the shadow, when there is no light on us, that we re at more risk.
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And we ve sort of been sold the opposite bill of goods.
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That was a big shift for me.
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The visibility can be safe.
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Very safe.
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Because think of everything as an electromagnetism, right?
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And when you are
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Well, you know, it s coming to me to say right now too, is we ve been taught that we have to be humble, right?
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And that we have to be, that you can t get too big for your britches, right?
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I hear that.
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And I think that would, that s probably coming from my grandfather saying, he used to say, you don t want to get too big for your britches.
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And I d be like, Oh, what s that mean?
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And then you re like, you know, and then when you get big,
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Michael Bates, who is one of my mentors said to me, Jackie, when you walk into a room, you don t realize when you walk in with all this light around you and all this love, you re getting the attention of a lot of different, you know, energies.
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And it s like, the shadow frequency goes, Ooh, there s dinner, how can we get in?
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How can we, you know, throw this little dig?
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Or how can we get in and plug in, and then drain that light?
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Because
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Frequencies of energy that are in shadow cannot create their own life.
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That energy cannot create light, it is shadow.
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And so it has to defeat, to sustain, to have energy, it must plug in and then take.
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And so that plane, that relational plane, if it s in a shadow frequency is gonna be very diminishing and very draining.
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But if we are connected to source and connected to the earth, and we re running our energy this way, and our relationship is this way, that s what we mean, stand up straight, stand up tall, be attuned to that light, and that will radiate off of you.
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And so when somebody or something happens, and it comes at you, it will bounce off, because it does not match the vibration.
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When I m feeling small or when I m afraid of being big, I m in fear.
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That s all that needs to be known, fear.
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Now that has a magnetism that I m vibrating at because I m afraid.
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And so anything that s vibrating at fear can now go, oh, look, oh, there, I see a way in.
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See, she s afraid of being like seen, or she s afraid of, you know, being heard.
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Here we go.
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And now it s plugged in.
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And then I tell this story sometimes, you know, I always wear and I m wearing green today, but I usually wear black all the time.
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And I was invited to this event and I found this like beautiful canary yellow dress.
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And I thought, and I love that color, but I rarely wear color.
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And I decided I was going to wear it.
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And, you know, even my husband s like, wow, that s that s like new for you.
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And I m like, yeah, I know.
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But he meant it in a nice way.
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So I put the dress on and go to the party.
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But I m I m a little intimidated by this choice, right?
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This bold choice.
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Minute I walk in, the person I see first goes, wow, well, that s bright color.
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And I felt myself go, right.
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A little bit of doubt came in.
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I already had a little doubt.
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Now here comes the doubt.
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And then, you know, I m thinking, wow, why?
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Okay, just keep going.
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You wore it, you got it, you can do this.
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Talk myself out of it.
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Didn t, just was a little sting.
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And then, you know, moving on to the party, somebody goes, oh gosh, that s bright.
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Okay, here it comes.
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Now here s the cord going even deeper.
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This map, because I was magnifying doubt and I was magnifying,
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you know, fear.
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And so what I m, it s like I m putting up a sign when I walk in instead of, Oh, I m feeling good and I m in flow and I m feeling colorful and light and bright.
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I was walking in going, Oh, I hope this isn t too bright.
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Well, by the time I ended the party, I might as well have worn a black dress because all the color was drained out of me because of my doubt was this little sign.
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And then all of the energy just came to me.
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we create our own experience.
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And so darkness, shadow energy is, is
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opportunistic too.
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It waits.
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I m Rachel Martin.
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After hosting Morning Edition for years, I know that the news can wear you down.
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So we made a new podcast called Wildcard, where a special deck of cards and a whole bunch of fascinating guests help us sort out what makes life meaningful.
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It s part game show, part existential deep dive, and it is seriously fun.
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Join me on Wildcard, wherever you get your podcasts, only from NPR.
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I ve been writing a long series on my sub stack about darkness and shadow energies and grappling with my understanding of it.
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Not that I have a full explication.
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I also tell the story of when I started working with you and you pulled an entity out of my neck and then I broke my neck and it was fine.
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I was fine.
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But that was wild.
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But I think that it s... No one s going to want to work with me now.
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No, but you got it out.
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You got it out.
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That s the thing.
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And I feel like it made one last attempt and failed.
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Yeah, it s relentless.
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Relentless.
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But I feel like we live in a, you know, we live in a culture, particularly sort of in the wellness side of things, where people are understandably obsessed with the light and talking about the light and have such
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again, deep fear of shadow or an unwillingness to look at it.
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And shadow needs to be mixed.
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It needs to be transmuted.
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It can t just be avoided.
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We re full of shadow.
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We re full of it.
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And it s the only way that the light has any context, really.
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That polarity is essential.
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But I think people need to sort of
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get out of this Pollyanna-ish view of, I just won t look over there, I m ignoring that, which is very different, I think, than this idea of fear.
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Because I will say, when I met you, I was a little scared.
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And then part of it has been, I m not scared at all.
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I really am not afraid.
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And I do a little exercise where I, every morning before I open my eyes, I ask,
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for protection.
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I ask to be shown what I need to see and really only what I need to see.
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I have a little process of just running energy quickly.
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It s not long.
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I spend two minutes.
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But just being really conscious of, again, that vibration, what you were talking about.
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What sticks?
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What are you going to let drive you?
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And then as soon as it hits, like as soon as I find myself in fear, working really quickly to get myself
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out of it without being delusional, or with with being cognizant of the world that we live in.
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And that s part of it.
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This is part of it.
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This is part of our this is one of our jobs.
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It is the it is our purpose for being embodied is to, to find out where we re in an agreement with a shadow.
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and frame it.
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So wherever I m in a fear, it s about reframing it into what it is that and who it is that I want to be.
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And, you know, I believe what you re, you know, you re talking about is spiritual bypass, we can t just positively talk or positively
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over a shadow because one thing our souls come here to do is find out where we re holding on to fears and release them.
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You know, our soul is truth, loves the truth.
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And wherever we re holding a fear, if we re denying it, we re still holding it in our vibrational space.
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It s not like we re gonna be able to escape it.
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We, again, can t say it enough.
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We are electromagnetic beings.
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And if there s a fear, and we re just saying, No, no, no, I can t look at it, it s still there.
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And it s still going to materialize in your life.
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And it s going to materialize in a pattern.
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And so we want to look at it and say, Whoa, where am I in fear?
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And any frequency of fear?
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And fear by its very nature is a lie.
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The shadow is a lie.
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And it will continue to tell you lies in order so you can continue to believe it and let it stick around.
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And so when you hear someone say, you know, love your shadow,
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That s true.
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It doesn t mean give it a hug and indulge it and say, would you like to stay for milk and cookies?
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It s like, you don t nurture the shadow.
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I call it indulgent.
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Do not indulge those bees.
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What you want to say is, wow, you know what, I m really, you know, for me, I had a fear of being seen, right?
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Because I believed early on, I have a trauma around
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You know, being ridiculed for being different.
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And so, when I was that I ve carried that with me for a long time, and so everywhere I went, I would always feel uncomfortable if I stood out too much that hence the yellow dress was like a big leap for me.
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because I ve always wanted to fly under the radar.
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I can t tell you how many times I used to say, you know what, I fly under the radar.
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I just, I don t need to be talked about it.
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I don t need to be seen as a fear of persecution.
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As long as I hold that and keep justifying it with, oh yeah, I fly under the radar.
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It s not going anywhere.
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So then everywhere I go, I m always going to feel disconnected until I stopped and said, wait, why do I want to fly under the radar?
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I m not comfortable under the radar.
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I m very uncomfortable.
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Every time I go somewhere, I feel disconnected from everybody.
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What is that?
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I have to take a look at it.
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Do I need to go jump into it and sit in it forever?
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No.
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It s called getting in and getting out.
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I need to go and see what s going on here.
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Oh, I get it.
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Because I have a belief that if I m different, I m less than so I m afraid.
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I m in a fear.
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How do I shift that?
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What s the truth?
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What s the truth about that?
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The truth is, I m different.
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The truth is, I m not less than I m just different.
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And everybody is.
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And so now I have a practice.
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And I m condensing it and making it simpler for time sake, but that s the process of energy medicine.
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That s the process of looking at things through a lens in which you can say, I can trust that I m safe in my vulnerability.
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I can take a look at that shadow.
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And the shadow doesn t get to run my show.
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It doesn t write my narrative.
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And it certainly isn t going to set the scene for my life or my relationships.
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But if I keep believing that I m less than because I m different than every experience is going to be written from that belief system.
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And then I ll see a pattern in which I will feel left out, less than, or incapable.
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And so I have to wake up to it, face it, not fear it.
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When we fear fear, we become the fear.
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And when we stop and reframe, now I can say, all right, it s a practice.
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I don t think that I m instantly gonna go places and feel comfortable, but I think I m gonna practice.
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So when I hear that little beast,
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tapping at my door instead of going, No, no, I can t talk to you.
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Oh, no, no, I can t face them and go, Oh, you again?
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I don t think so.
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I trust that I m safe.
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And I m going to attune and then I ll use a mantra like, you know, it s safe to be seen.
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I am safe to be seen because I am capable.
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And then I will invite in divine energy, only divine energy may be around me, please come with me.
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walk with me, come to the cocktail party with me in my yellow dress.
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I mean, seriously, that s how I relate because when you re doing your practice every day and you re running that energy for two minutes, it doesn t matter if it s two minutes, 20 minutes, two hours, 20 seconds.
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you are building your relationship with the divine universe, with the forces of light.
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And for that two minutes, when you re co-creating with that energy, it is building a field around you.
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It is fortifying your atoms, the way you organize your energy field in light for that two minutes.
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And it will sustain itself.
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The more you do it, the longer you will be able to sustain that force field
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in the light, that s how you become safe.
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It s not from I mean, I told you the story of going, you know, to clear the house with all the salt and this and that the earth provides amazing vibrational tools for us all the time to create energy around us.
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But the more we create the energy within us, the more we
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it, we can tap into the energy of the earth, salts and oils and things and crystals and stones.
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And I everything I do is alchemical for me and my well being.
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However, it really matters on what we re doing in here, because the light is in us.
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Yeah.
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And my understanding to from talking to lots of people is that when you ask the divine, like the divine, they re not going to bypass your freewill.
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So
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So when you ask for assistance, or you ask for support, it s different.
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It s an invitation that they can respond to, whereas they re not going to necessarily intercede without your express permission.
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Well, that s a that s a great story, at least that darkness likes us to believe, loves to believe that, you know, oh, right.
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turn it over and God knows better.
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Well, no, that s not possible for a loving being.
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A loving being isn t domineering and a loving being is not going to judge you and certainly isn t going to test you.
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A loving being, a loving energy, and you can call that energy God, or again, it doesn t matter to me what people call it.
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When you call in forces of love,
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It is forces of love.
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What does love want?
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Love wants for you what you want for yourself.
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Love wants to support you in ways that are in grace and patience.
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And so when you call it, it s coming in and saying, how can I help you?
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What do you need?
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How can I support you in the light?
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It s not gonna say, oh, you know what?
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I know you really wanted this, but too bad.
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But oftentimes, you know, we think that
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we get tested by the divine universe?
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No, we don t we get tested by the shadow.
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Are you going to come and agree with me again that you re less than are you going to come in and agree with me again, that you should be afraid?
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And then that s when the answer has to say no, I m actually going to agree with the fact that I can trust in my own capability, because I m a divine being of the light.
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And when I tune into those energies, there s a whole force field of energy that is well, that is coming and welcoming me
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and also joining me in my intention.
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So let s talk a bit about these shadow chords, entities, whatever, however people want to imagine them in their mind.
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And they can be sort of from past lives, like they can be old.
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I think I was contending with something that maybe definitely predated this lifetime where I had made maybe an unconscious agreement in a previous life.
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Who knows?
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Who knows?
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That was pretty old.
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It was pretty old.
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So what does it look like?
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I mean, I think we were talking with Lauren, the producer, before we started going, and we were talking about sort of relationships, old loves, these things where we feel connected or we still feel hooked, right?
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How do you – does it matter what it is, first of all,
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And how do you know that something sort of has you?
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And then how do you how can we sort of do our own emotional or sorry, energetic hygiene?
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How can we get those hooks out?
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So a couple of things I always again, energy is always reciprocal, right?
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So it s flowing and it s flowing between us all the time.
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And in ways that we re sometimes conscious of most of the time we re unconscious of it right and I always say you know when you think about somebody and then they call you right or.
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you call someone and they go, oh my goodness, I was just thinking about you, right?
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That is energy being transferred.
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That s you re getting the message, right?
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And so if you re thinking, I always say to someone, if you re busy, like right now we re engaged in a conversation and I m totally focused right here, right now with you.
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If I started to think about somebody like not related to this conversation at all, that would tell me that
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that person s knocking at my door, right?
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That person s energy is they re sending energy my way in some shape or form.
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If when I think of them, it feels pleasant.
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And, you know, I m in ease with it, then that s, that s love, or some faction of love coming my way, right?
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If it pops up and I feel a sense of disharmony or dis-ease around it, well, that s telling you it s some energy coming that is not in love.
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It is usually in some form of fear, intentional or unintentionally, right?
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That s why gossip is so harmful because when we begin to think or speak in a way about somebody that s in a shadow,
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you know, that energy goes out there.
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And what ends up happening is, at first, when somebody is transmitting energy, that s negative or shut or in a fear at you, it may come like a little post it note and stick to your org field, right?
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So now I ve got a little post it note here, that s saying, you know, whatever it wants to say about me that I m that I m strange, okay, a lot of people think, you know, that I m
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I m out there, whatever.
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So we ll use that as an example, because I don t want to create a new post-it note for me.
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So here, they know that I m kind of out there in my thinking or whatever.
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And they keep saying it about me in a way that s judgmental.
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So it keeps sticking to me.
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If there s a part of me that believes it, let s go back to my limiting belief that because I m different, I m less than, that post-it note
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is gonna turn into one, a big billboard, right?
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Because now I believe it, so there s a charge to it.
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Now I m amplifying that energy in my space.
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But if I really believe it and that person keeps pushing it there, or I encounter that person and I judge them for being whatever, now it becomes a cord.
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And because it s in the frequency of less than or judgment, that cord, so we ll,
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usually attached to my fifth chakra because your fifth chakra is all about judgment, right?
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Our fifth chakra is that chakra that is about our expression and trusting that we are divine and that we are worthy.
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But when I feel unworthy, that allows an energy to come in and grab me.
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Neck.
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So now I ve got, I keep thinking of this person, I feel uncomfortable, and now my neck hurts.
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My neck hurts.
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So I m going, gee, why does my neck hurt?
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Right?
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Whenever we have a pain sensation in our thoughts, right?
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In our physical body or in our mind where we keep spinning, spinning, spinning, stop, take a minute and tune in to that pain.
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Like, don t be afraid, like step into it.
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But when you re doing that,
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Do it while you re running an energy of gold.
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So just ask, and I m gonna make it simple.
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I mean, there s a process that s longer, but let s just keep it simple for this.
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All you need is gold.
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Call in big golden light to come in.
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Just ask for gold, just like you would ask for a cup of tea.
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Just ask for gold and trust that it will come in.
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And so you ask for this gold and here comes the gold.
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And now you go into that.
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Now you re, you re, you re being protected.
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You re being held with the golden energy.
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That s super important.
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So you don t get stuck in them.
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All right.
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So what s this pain in my neck about?
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So I m asking, I m not asking the pain because the pain s a big fat liar.
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The pain s going to tell me I m a loser and I m weird.
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And you know, nobody believes in any of the crazy stuff that you talk about, or it s going to tell me all those things that that person is saying about me.
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Okay.
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So now I m in that and I m going, okay, divine energy, gold.
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What s this pain about?
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Oh, it s about that, that you are judging yourself as being less than.
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It s about that.
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Okay, where s it coming from?
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Oh, it s coming from that person.
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I think of that person in that moment.
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Now I know I got a cord between me and them, right?
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Where am I now?
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The real question is, cause a cord can not stick to you unless you agree with it.
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Because I agree with what that person is saying.
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There s a part of me that agrees with it.
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That s why I m now corded.
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I got to get that out.
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So I m going to run that gold, gold, gold.
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And I even will tune in for a minute and I ll use my hand and I ll put my hand through wherever the pain is.
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I ll just do this and just listen, listen for a second.
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You ll be able to tune in and hear what that is and then see yourself run that gold more and more and more.
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And then ask any anchor points.
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to between me and let s say it s, you know, whomever it is, person s name.
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I m asking that that cord be broken and be broken now.
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I am only in agreement with divine light.
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Only divine light may be present with me.
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And that will help get the cord out or at least dissipate it.
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That s one way.
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The other way is just forget about it.
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I don t need to know where it comes from.
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I know I don t agree with it.
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I mean, I don t want this.
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This can t be in my space.
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So you tune into that pain again.
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And all you need to do is ask for and focus on little tiny white roses.
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White roses are an energetic tool for
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When we call them in and we use them and put them where the pain is, and then see them explode like little firecrackers, just pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, breaking up.
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It ll break up the anchor point of the cord.
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It ll break up the energy and keep doing it until you feel a sense of relief.
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You know, I don t use Advil a lot anymore, any type of pain medicine.
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I use roses and I will sit, I do, and I will sit and run roses and just explode them, explode them.
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And it may take five minutes.
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It may take five hours, but it doesn t matter.
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And you want that energy out.
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Once you do that, just see the gold light come back in because wherever you remove a cord, you have to replace it with energy.
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Cause now there s, there s a void, right?
4
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and you wanna call your energy back and then just see it come in as gold.
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I have a couple of questions.
4
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So is this why I always found this sort of during breakups that it was, I mean, as such, every woman, every man probably knows this too.
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The minute that you actually finally release, it always felt to me like a door closing, the moment that you actually really let someone go or release them, or I didn t know that I was cord cutting, but I must have been cord cutting, they come back, right?
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We just know this at a point when you re like,
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I don t know why I even liked you.
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I am confused about the compelling nature of our relationship right now.
4
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Should people be sort of aware of that?
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Is that true?
4
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Absolutely.
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Okay.
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It s amazing.
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Whenever I do a major cord cutting with people, and I do it in a way where we push all of the energy out, it s pretty big deal.
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Well, we ve done it before.
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That person always either texts the person or calls, or we ll even be on in the session and I ll go, oh my gosh, they just called me.
4
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And I ll be like, of course, because they can feel your energy leaving because when you are corded in a cord of energy that is in a fear frequency, it s a feeding.
4
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The energy is being drained and you could be doing the draining as well, right?
4
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And that s why it s always important.
4
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You always want to call your energy back to you.
4
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You don t wanna be in that type of relational experience where you re corded and you re draining someone.
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So always call your energy back.
4
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But when you have a breakup, especially, because there s so many confusing or complex energy agreements between you and that person, and it s always karmic, right?
4
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In every relationship, there is something for us to know.
4
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So when you find that you one, can t let go of someone or you can t let go of beating yourself up for being in a relationship with somebody, you wanna say, well, where s the wisdom in that?
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What did I learn from that experience?
4
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Get that first and then say, okay, now I know that I was supposed to learn to have better boundaries or I was supposed to learn that my voice matters.
4
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Now that person has less of a chance of holding on there, let they let go, they keep coming back.
4
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Well, they keep coming back because they re trying to see can we get back in?
4
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Because remember, your dinner, that energy has been sustaining them in some way, shape or form consciously or unconsciously.
4
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Hopefully, for most people, it s it s unconsciously because if their intention is to drain you, that s a pretty dark agreement.
4
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And that s a whole different set of energy cords.
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When someone s intentionally setting out to steal from you your light or to harm you, that s where you have to stop and say, you know, that s where you want to call in divine forces or get someone to support you.
4
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And you can tell the difference because it feels
4
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really, really sticky.
4
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And no matter what you do, you feel like you can t get around it.
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There s a doorway that that s getting in that you re not aware of.
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And that s where you want to do a lot of that energy running, the more you run your energy, the less it can hold on.
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Does that make sense?
4
SPEAKER_00
I had known of Jackie, but we had lunch one day.
4
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And on my way to lunch, I saw a raccoon in the middle of the day.
4
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And I noted it because they re nocturnal animals.
4
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And I was like, that s weird.
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I saw a raccoon.
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So we have a really fun lunch.
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And I d heard amazing things about Jackie.
4
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And I was like, I want to see what you re about.
4
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So we did a phone call and started working on this.
4
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I d had this chronic neck pain for years.
4
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And I grind my teeth, etc.
4
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And Jackie was like on it exactly in the part of my neck that it was.
4
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So we did a big session, I could feel, I m very sensitive, so I could feel it through the phone.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that night, I was, the doors were open, it was warm, and a bird had flown in to my house.
4
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And I opened a slider on the side to get the bird out.
4
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And I left it open and went to bed.
4
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And this is not uncommon for us to leave doors open.
4
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It s not a practice, but it happens.
4
SPEAKER_00
And when I woke up the next morning, a raccoon had come into our house, eaten the cat s food, got broken into the kid s snack bag, got into one of the kid s backpacks, and then he took a huge crap on our couch.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s right.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, Jackie, what the hell?
4
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And she was like, well, it means we shut the front door and the back door, but some side doors are still open.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that was amazing.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it likes to backdoor us.
4
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But I love it when you know, it s interesting.
4
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If we think about energy, and you d be like, well, what people are probably going, well, how could the raccoon like, how could the well, energy channels, just like it channels through us, that energy, use that raccoon and channel through it.
4
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And and that s, that s real.
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Think, think about how many times you ve said something, you re like, why did I say that?
4
SPEAKER_01
Or where did that come from?
4
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Right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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Totally.
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It s something channeling.
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And so that s why we want to have seniority that raccoon didn t have a lot of seniority over their energy field.
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It s amazing.
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Hasn t happened since.
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That raccoon wasn t in sovereignty.
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But but, you know, you want to, you want to have seniority.
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That s why you don t want cords.
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You don t want cords.
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You don t want holes in your energy field.
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You don t want doors open.
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We all have them.
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If we didn t, we wouldn t be here.
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We are here to close the doors.
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It doesn t mean something s wrong with you or that you have a terrible life or what s wrong and why, why, why, why, why.
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Whenever you hear yourself ask that question, stop.
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Stop, because what you re doing is you re inviting the shadow in to tell you a big fat lie.
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When you ask why, you re asking to hear a lie.
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That s what I always say.
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Stop, don t ask it.
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You don t ask why you ask what, and that s why you get answers.
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What is this?
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Well, you know what, when we say, what is this?
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What am I to know?
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What do I need to know here so I can get past this so I can grow, so I can evolve and I can move into this next phase and get my energy back and be more creative and have more balance and be free.
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Now the divine universe gets to ask, answer you.
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And you know what, that little raccoon got in, but it got in because you got the message, right?
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So this is an important point.
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Shadow, light will always trump shadow, always.
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The only time that the shadow can get in is when we match it.
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And so, but if we re steeped in prayer, it will only get so far because
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We re only here to learn.
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We re only here to grow.
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We re not here to be destroyed by it.
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Nor to have raccoons.
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I just want to issue a disclaimer.
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You re not going to get attacked by a raccoon.
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It was just a funny event.
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And I think it was connected, but don t worry.
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If people have raccoon phobias, a raccoon is not going to break into your house and poop on your couch.
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nor are you going to necessarily experience anything.
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You re not going to break your neck.
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The things that I experience are quite wild and extreme, but mostly you re going to get attacked.
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You re going to run into someone at the grocery store.
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You re going to get some gentle nudges.
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You re not going to get a catastrophe.
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Not that a raccoon is a catastrophe.
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No, nothing is a catastrophe if we don t buy into the work.
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It s humorous.
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Like, did anything terrible happen?
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No.
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Did you get a big like, Oh, okay.
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I m on the right track.
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Really is what that tells you.
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Yeah.
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And I didn t even know I
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I had broken my neck for a week for context.
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Again, I don t want anyone to worry or think that that s what s coming for them.
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But you re safe, ultimately.
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If anything, it s good to have some humor around it because this stuff sounds scary and it shouldn t scare you.
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No, never.
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Because here s the thing.
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We go into growth periods, right?
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And what that means is when we start to ask questions about why is something in my life in disarray or why do I keep having the same experience in which, you know, I m at a loss or I have loss or I keep getting rejected or, you know, I can t find a job or I m stuck in a bad relationship that, you know, is abusive.
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When we start to say, what is this?
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we re going to, things are going to open up.
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They have to open up.
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They have to pop open.
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And when they pop open, all the pain pops out, it comes out.
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It has to, it has to come out.
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It has to go somewhere.
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And that s really what you re talking about.
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All of that disruption led you to a place of your next feels better now, right?
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You, all of these, you you re in a, in more of a flow.
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We,
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But before that happens, we have to get the energy out of our space, out of our system, out of our field so it can t materialize any longer.
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But for a moment or two, it may be or feel a little chaotic and dark energy banks on that.
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Dark energy banks on that.
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It s gonna get a little chaotic and then you re gonna retreat.
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you re not going to push through it.
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And so in those cases, you have to say, wait, no, I know that if I focus on the light, I can go through this and I will go through it.
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And when I come out on the other side, I m going to be free.
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Yes.
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It s like getting a really intense facial.
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Yeah.
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My editor hates it when I use this metaphor.
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But in a way, it s like trying to really clear skin, right?
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You re lancing things.
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You re disrupting.
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It maybe looks a little worse, and then it heals.
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but you can t, or you re covering it up, but you re living with it, right?
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Right.
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And if you just keep putting cover up on your, your acne, what s going to happen?
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You just get more acne because you re just clogging everything up.
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You re not allowing anything to come up and out.
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And the skin is a perfect,
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You know, and is that is that an explanation?
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So like, let s say that you are in a relationship, you break up, there s a certain cord, right, that s hitting you in your feeling of self worth, or, you know, right in the neck, let s say, or is that then become
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evident and available for any – is this part of our pattern repetition?
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Is this when you start finding yourself in the same type of relationship in part because the hook is going into that same vulnerable exposed place?
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Well, yes, but it s also because you haven t got the message yet.
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And there s still layers there.
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And that doesn t mean so many times people will say, well, I thought it was so far on this, you know, feeling unworthy.
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And now I m just right back to where I was again, I m failing.
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So then we go into this, like this idea that we re failing, no, you re evolving.
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And you may have a lot of karma with a certain type of energy.
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and with different souls.
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And so you ve got to go through those relationships and say, no, that breaks karma.
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Karma is about seeing yourself in the same thing over and over again and making a new choice and making a choice in love.
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And so if you find that you re in the same type of romantic relationship with the same type of partner, it s because you re trying to solve, right?
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You re trying to say no.
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to an energy that you ve been saying yes to in different ways, shapes and forms.
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And again, it has a lot of doorways.
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So with one partner, you may have shut one doorway and now you ve got the same but different partner and you got another doorway shut and then you re here.
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And hopefully each time you become more free.
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That s what we re looking for.
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And what happens, though, is instead of going, oh, well, I really learned that this time.
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And then I really learned it with this guy.
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And now I ve really learned it with this person.
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And OK, I m doing pretty well.
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Every time I m getting a little bit more free, I m using my voice.
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I m setting better boundaries or whatever it is.
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I m beginning to see that I matter.
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and that I m not gonna be afraid of being rejected because it means that I m a loser or less than.
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I m gonna say that I matter and that actually I can feel fulfilled within myself.
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Oh, now I got it, right?
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It took me five relationships, but great.
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I say celebrate that.
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Those are five souls that somewhere in your eternal lifetime, you ve created an agreement with, a karma.
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And they ve had, those are those,
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There are chords that come across embodiments right there, universal threads of energy with that you re attached to this person.
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And now you re done.
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It s like, that s great.
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Now, where s the next person?
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Oh, here comes this next relationship.
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And oh, wow, it s really amazing.
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he got there because you got the message.
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But if you don t wanna get the message and you wanna keep saying, oh, that guy s this, and that person s that, and I m a victim, and you re in victim consciousness, you might as well say, line up everybody that I have karmic agreements with.
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I m in this particular area of I m not worthy, and they ll line up and they ll keep coming.
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And I don t think that s what we want.
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I think we want to grow and evolve, right?
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Beautiful.
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Can someone have hooks in you even if they ve passed?
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Yes.
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So we are eternal beings.
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If someone is either embodied or has crossed over, they don t cease to exist.
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Our relationship is still our relationship.
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And so love transcends all space and time, right?
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And so we re infinitely connected.
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to people that we love and that we re connected to.
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There are the hooks in love.
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Those are beautiful.
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I don t know that we necessarily want that to be unhooked, but the shadow frequencies and the chords that are diminishing exist as well.
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But again, think of everything as a frequency of energy.
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Shadow cannot go everywhere.
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It can only be in spaces and places in which shadow is present.
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So if we are holding anger or holding resentment or regret or judgment about someone, it doesn t cease just because they re not embodied any longer.
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And so it s really important to know that we can work on that
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when someone leaves the planet.
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I think a lot of suffering happens when people aren t in forgiveness frequency and then someone leaves and then you feel like oh gosh, you know, I never saw that we can solve it at any time.
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The universe is not is not restrained by time and space.
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I love Jackie.
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She s hilarious, but she s also dropped some intense wisdom on me in the past years.
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And she, in turn, has recontextualized and reframed for me the way that I perceive energy, both mine and other people s.
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And we went on quite a journey.
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I wrote about it more on my Substack, which is EliseLoonan.Substack.com.
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I did a whole series about darkness, shadow, when communities are in shadow.
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Give it a listen if you liked what you heard here.
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It s informed by a lot of interesting thinkers like Llewellyn von Lee and Richard Rohr and it s me trying to grapple with what s afoot.
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Not that I have any answers but hopefully it provides clarity and also reassurance somehow because
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Yes, I think there s darkness.
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Of course, there s shadow.
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But don t be afraid.
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There s no reason to be afraid.
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You really, really are safe.
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All right.
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I ll see you next week.
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Thanks for listening to this week s episode.
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You can find show notes and full transcripts of the episodes at theelizepodcast.com.
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While there, please sign up for my Substack newsletter.
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I send a short note every Wednesday about topics that are aligned with this show and a deeper dive on Sundays.
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Or follow me on Instagram
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at Elise Lunen.
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Meanwhile, if you haven t already, please pre-order my book coming May 23rd.
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It s called On Our Best Behavior, The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good, and it s an exploration of the ways we ve been programmed to police ourselves and each other.
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I d also like to give a huge thank you to my sponsors who make this show possible.
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Please support them the way they support this podcast.
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This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studio.
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If you enjoyed this episode, please listen, rate, review, and follow Pulling the Thread, available for now for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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I want to give a shout out to Phil Svitek, Lauren Legroso, Mary Kate McDonough, Ali Brockman, and the entire Cadence 13 team for producing these episodes, and to Valero Duval for my key art.
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Take care of yourselves.
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I ll see you next week.
6
So,