0
SPEAKER_00
Hi, it s Elise Lunen, host of Pulling the Thread.
0
SPEAKER_00
Today is a special episode, the first of a four-part series on metaphysical systems.
0
SPEAKER_00
And to kick it off, one of my most brilliant friends, Courtney Smith, who coaches the Enneagram, is going to join us.
0
SPEAKER_00
Hi, it s Elise Lunen, host of Pulling the Thread.
0
SPEAKER_00
On this show, we pull apart the web in which we all live to understand who we are and why we re here.
0
SPEAKER_00
Pulling the Thread is about big questions.
0
SPEAKER_00
Why we do what we do, how we can understand our own experiences within a larger spiritual and historical context, the ways in which we might begin to understand ourselves and each other better, and what s required to heal ourselves and our world.
0
SPEAKER_00
I ll be joined in conversation by luminaries and wise elders, those who have laid tracks in their work and lives to help us bring meaning and understanding to a world that often feels chaotic and overwhelming.
0
SPEAKER_00
My hope is that these conversations spark moments of resonance and plant tiny seeds of awareness so that we might all collectively learn and grow.
0
SPEAKER_01
Part of what happens when human beings experience difficulty is the same difficulty, the same fact pattern, can resonate very differently for different human beings.
0
SPEAKER_01
And so part of what happens when a human being encounters challenge is not just, oh, you hurt me, but it s how do I make meaning of the fact that you hurt me?
0
SPEAKER_01
Is it that there s something wrong with you?
0
SPEAKER_01
Is it that there s something wrong with me?
0
SPEAKER_01
Is that we should never have been involved in the first place?
0
SPEAKER_01
Is it that I need to fight and stand up for myself so that never happens again?
0
SPEAKER_01
Is it I need to make myself really small so that never happens again?
0
SPEAKER_01
So type is about how I made meaning of challenge that happened to me early in life.
0
SPEAKER_01
And because of the way I made meaning of it, that s how my adaptive strategies arose.
0
SPEAKER_00
Welcome to the first part of a four-episode special on metaphysical systems.
0
SPEAKER_00
These Monday episodes don t build on each other per se.
0
SPEAKER_00
You can cherry-pick what s interesting to you, but they all go together.
0
SPEAKER_00
In this first set of systems, we ll explore the Enneagram, Asterian astrology, human design, and tarot.
0
SPEAKER_00
Today, we re kicking it off with Enneagram.
0
SPEAKER_00
specifically is interpreted by my dear friend Courtney Smith, who is, quite frankly, one of the smartest people I know.
0
SPEAKER_00
I heard Courtney might be one of my soulmates for years before we finally met, not only because we have the same taste in people, we have many dear mutual friends, but also because she s an Enneagram genius and the sort of person who is happy to talk about G.I.
0
SPEAKER_00
Gurdjieff and the fourth way at a cocktail party.
0
SPEAKER_00
Courtney has a robust coaching practice, individuals, executive teams, women s groups, where she integrates the Enneagram, which she studies under Russ Hudson, along with trainings from the Conscious Leadership Group, the Alexander Technique, and the work of Byron Katie.
0
SPEAKER_00
She also adds her own perception and raging intelligence.
0
SPEAKER_00
Courtney is brilliant, particularly at assessing systems on both the micro and macro level, and she s also exceptionally warm.
0
SPEAKER_00
excavating all of our human foibles and patterns for the treasures of promised growth.
0
SPEAKER_00
My favorite part of Courtney, though, is that she plays against type.
0
SPEAKER_00
I love finding the mystical and metaphysical in a woman who has a degree in mathematical economics from Wake Forest, a master s in public health from New York University, and a JD from Yale Law School.
0
SPEAKER_00
Courtney also worked as a consultant at McKinsey.
0
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
0
SPEAKER_00
Let s get to our conversation.
0
SPEAKER_00
So obviously I know your story, but besides just generally being one of my favorite people, you re one of my favorite varieties of people, which is a real box checker.
0
SPEAKER_00
And you re fascinating to me, one, because you re so smart and you have one of those like Pac-Man brains where I feel like I can give you a lot of information and then you distill it.
0
SPEAKER_00
But weren t you like a math engineering major and you have a master s in public health and you have a JD from Yale and now you coach the Enneagram?
0
SPEAKER_00
I just like the turn into the mystical from an unexpected upbringing.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so, well you re making me blush, I m just gonna say that.
0
SPEAKER_01
It s all so hot in here.
0
SPEAKER_01
It s true that I have some credentials from an earlier part of my life and I do feel that, you know, if you told my 25 or 30 year old or even 35 or even 40 year old self that I d be doing the work that I do and
0
SPEAKER_01
interested in questions about what it means to be a human being and entertaining, that there s a spiritual answer to that, I would have laughed in your face.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
And maybe given you the finger, I probably would have.
0
SPEAKER_00
So what happened?
0
SPEAKER_00
And I know, I mean, but like you, I think that my fascination with the metaphysical world is maybe confusing to some people, even though I find it endlessly, I find that these are obviously the biggest questions, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
So what happened?
0
SPEAKER_01
Well, I do think that part of the older versions of myself that are
0
SPEAKER_01
awesome and lovely and still with me are, I do have a very practical orientation of, I want to be doing something here in this world.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I think there s plenty of ways to look at having a spiritual life that in sort of its most elevated sense is all about what does that mean in terms of how I conduct myself on a daily basis.
0
SPEAKER_01
But I certainly think that for most of us, you know, I grew up going to a pretty liberal church That to me did not feel like the primary thrust of what religion was about It was all about a belief system and less about my own individual navigation of this world
0
SPEAKER_01
And so a lot of my interest in mathematical economics and law degree and public health and management consulting.
0
SPEAKER_00
I forgot about McKinsey, yes.
0
SPEAKER_01
Was all about trying to figure out how the world works and then trying to figure out my spot within that.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I still think that
0
SPEAKER_01
Approach of how does the world work and what s my place within that?
0
SPEAKER_01
I think that is still true for me.
0
SPEAKER_01
I Think that what happened is though as I had to do more work individually and See places that I was limiting myself and kind of take myself on the journey of You know
0
SPEAKER_01
I would say midlife expansion, midlife growth, midlife, ah, the way I ve been doing things is not working for me.
0
SPEAKER_01
Because of certain teachers and because of certain things I was exposed to, I began to see that actually some of those rational, empirical, logical, analytical ways of making sense of the world actually don t fully capture it.
0
SPEAKER_01
And that really had to be given to me one breadcrumb at a time, because if you had told me that s what was gonna happen and told me the punchline, I would have said no.
0
SPEAKER_01
I really had to figure out for myself and experience for myself that there are parts of what it means to be a human being, there s parts of the ways the world is operating that cannot be explained by a formula.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
Hearing you also explain it, it makes so much sense, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
To like understand systems of governance and government, understanding, like the rules, the rules, you understand the rules of the 3D plane.
0
SPEAKER_00
And even your path toward the Enneagram, right, was through
0
SPEAKER_00
McKinsey through coaching.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that isn t that essentially business therapy in some ways?
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, I think this is why the Enneagram is like so resonated with me, and why I m really passionate about talking with other people about it, because I think that
0
SPEAKER_01
some people come to the Enneagram with already a spiritual orientation, but most of the time people come to the system, at least initially understanding it no differently than like a Myers-Briggs or a strength finder, or you know, some other kind of categorization of how human beings kind of show up in this world.
0
SPEAKER_01
And
1
SPEAKER_00
People usually come with a very specific, you know, I want to be more effective in my business.
1
SPEAKER_00
I want to be able to give feedback to the people who work for me in a better way.
1
SPEAKER_00
I want to be a better parent and understand how my children work or, you know, my spouse sees the world so differently than I do.
1
SPEAKER_00
Most people come to the Enneagram, I think, with a very this world, very concrete understanding of how it could help them.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s great.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think that that was my entry also.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I like to meet people there because I think it is of real concern.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then I like to surprise people and see if they re willing to continue to follow breadcrumbs with my guidance.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I m sure people listening, many people have taken the ReadyTest or some IEQ or one of these testing types to figure out their Enneagram number.
1
SPEAKER_01
But it is, I love the Enneagram because of its mystical slash metaphysical roots.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so I know, just so people understand the history, and G.I.
1
SPEAKER_01
Gurdjieff is often credited with the Enneagram, but he didn t create the psychological system.
1
SPEAKER_01
He danced the symbol, right, and talked about how the Enneagram, the nine points contain
1
SPEAKER_01
everything, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Like the world and all of its component parts can be contained, can be held by this symbol.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so the origin of the symbol itself is a circle with a bunch of lines kind of, you know, going through in a pattern.
1
SPEAKER_00
how long it s been around and its origins are unknown.
1
SPEAKER_00
But as you mentioned, there is this man named Gurdjieff, who s working in the early 1920s up until
1
SPEAKER_00
1940s, I think, I believe.
1
SPEAKER_00
And he s really using the symbol of the Enneagram, which is how I think people understand it historically was used to sort of describe how evolution occurs, both in small ways and in big ways, how change happens.
1
SPEAKER_00
And what creates resistance?
1
SPEAKER_00
Why does some change happen and then it falls back and regresses?
1
SPEAKER_00
Really sort of a symbol that captures the dynamicism of our universe.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then there s a man named Oscar Achazo who lived in South America in the 70s and
1
SPEAKER_00
he s the first person that really takes that Gurdjieff work, which is about really what is the inner nature of the world?
1
SPEAKER_00
What are the unspoken laws by which change happens?
1
SPEAKER_00
And he marries it with another very longstanding Western tradition, which is captured in parts of the Kabbalah.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s captured in the seven deadly sins that you ve been picking apart in a beautiful way.
1
SPEAKER_00
There is a Western tradition that really dates back to, you know, 200 AD, if not earlier, which is this idea of by categorizing human beings and understanding that there are predictable patterns in which human beings try to navigate this world, that
1
SPEAKER_00
is helpful information and Achazo is the first to marry that Western approach to I want to see people as individuals and I want to try to categorize how they behave because that helps me be more effective.
1
SPEAKER_00
He marries that with
1
SPEAKER_00
the broader spiritual tradition of the Enneagram which is about what are we doing here and what are the laws that we re subject to in terms of how the world evolves that we don t actually really see that are happening underneath it all.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and just for, so one of the early fathers of the Enneagram or one of the people credited is Vagaris Ponticus, so fourth century, the same desert monk who wrote down the eight demonic thoughts, demonic meaning distracting, which ultimately became the cardinal vices, but that those seven vices, and we don t really know, right, exactly how these things traveled through time.
1
SPEAKER_01
geography but those seven vices show up in the Enneagram plus deceit plus fear right yeah yeah and what I love about the Enneagram
1
SPEAKER_01
as I ve come to look at it more closely, and I love GERGEF, and maybe we can talk about the Law of Three too, is that together it s quite whole, and the way that we move around, and we can talk a bit about the Enneagram types, and then how we move towards other types, and they re all existent in each of us in a way.
1
SPEAKER_01
But it s a beautiful system because every type is wonderful.
1
SPEAKER_01
And also I love it as a system because whereas if you say I m a Gemini, I don t really know what that, I mean, even as a Sagittarian, I m like, I love horses and I like independence.
1
SPEAKER_01
And like, I don t know exactly what it means or how to relate to other zodiac signs.
1
SPEAKER_01
Whereas with the Enneagram, when someone says I m an eight, you know, I know what I m encountering.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so I think that, and I m glad you brought up Evagrius, because part of the way he s working with those original eight, the Greek word is logismai, is this idea that
1
SPEAKER_00
All of us develop a personality.
1
SPEAKER_00
We all develop a set of habits around how we act, think, and feel reliably in this world.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we need that in order to function.
1
SPEAKER_00
I kind of like to say a personality is the chosen survival strategy of human beings.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that is part of being a human being is to acquire a personality.
1
SPEAKER_00
But even from the very beginning, if I agree as the Lotus Meyer all about, when I begin to become consumed, and overly identified with my personality, and the personality becomes no longer
1
SPEAKER_00
of service to me and instead starts driving me.
1
SPEAKER_00
It becomes hardened, it becomes less flexible, it becomes my only way of being in the world that actually separates me from whether you call it source or God or some of these broader values around love and compassion and
1
SPEAKER_00
peacefulness and truth and aliveness.
1
SPEAKER_00
When I come to take myself as only being my personality there s a real cost and price that I pay and it is a separation from these larger really beautiful parts of being alive that we all aspire to but don t realize how we re
1
SPEAKER_00
playing a smaller game by being locked into personality.
1
SPEAKER_01
So in that sense, when you think about Enneagram, it s not a construct of culture or childhood, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
There s this idea that it s somehow more essential than that.
1
SPEAKER_01
But I think we culturally overuse the word transcend.
1
SPEAKER_01
Although I like how Ken Wilber says like transcend and include, transcend and include.
1
SPEAKER_01
Is the idea as you come to find yourself within the Enneagram that you transcend, that you become all nine types or just more your type?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so that s a great question.
1
SPEAKER_00
Most of us believe that you re born with your type.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the reason that we believe that, or the explanation we would give for that, is you can think of each of the nine points on the Enneagram as an adaptive set of strategies.
1
SPEAKER_00
As I said, like a habituated pattern of thinking, feeling, and doing that each of us developed in order to navigate this world.
1
SPEAKER_00
And part of the reason that type arises is because as each of us experienced difficulty and trauma and discomfort and pain and suffering, part of what happens when human beings experience difficulty is the same difficulty, the same fact pattern
1
SPEAKER_00
can resonate very differently for different human beings.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so part of what happens when a human being encounters challenge is not just, oh, you hurt me.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it s how do I make meaning of the fact that you hurt me?
1
SPEAKER_00
Is it that there s something wrong with you?
1
SPEAKER_00
Is it that there s something wrong with me?
1
SPEAKER_00
Is that we should never have been involved in the first place?
2
SPEAKER_02
Is it that I need to fight and stand up for myself so that never happens again?
2
SPEAKER_02
Is it I need to make myself really small so that never happens again?
2
SPEAKER_02
So type is about how I made meaning of challenge that happened to me early in life.
2
SPEAKER_02
And because of the way I made meaning of it, that s how my adaptive strategies arose.
2
SPEAKER_02
And the way I m making meaning of the challenging parts of being a human being, that s what I come preloaded with.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so that is why type is something that arises, I would say, regardless of what your culture or family of origin looked like.
2
SPEAKER_02
And then to answer your second question, I think from my perspective, at least, you re always going to be the type that you are.
2
SPEAKER_02
So I m a type six, and I always will be a type six.
2
SPEAKER_02
But
2
SPEAKER_02
In order to be an effective person, in order to come into a situation and be able to navigate it, I really need the full range of behaviors available to me.
2
SPEAKER_02
I really need the full range of emotions.
2
SPEAKER_02
I really need the full range of how do I make meaning of this.
2
SPEAKER_02
And part of what happens is when we acquire a personality, we begin to think it s who I am.
2
SPEAKER_02
And the moment I say, I am this, by definition, I ve already limited my range of possibility in a situation.
2
SPEAKER_02
So for example, if I am a nice person, and then I get into a taxi cab, and the guy starts driving me all over the place and not taking me where I want to go,
2
SPEAKER_02
if I don t let myself be assertive and say, I need you to stop the car because I m quote, a nice person, I m actually not responding to reality as it s presenting itself.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so the idea is that by actually studying and looking at the other eight ways of being, the other eight adaptive strategies that human beings have to navigate the world, I still am a type six, but I wear it more flexibly.
2
SPEAKER_02
and I have greater range to access other behaviors or other ways of making sense of the world, that actually I will get a better response.
2
SPEAKER_00
That makes sense.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m Rachel Martin.
2
SPEAKER_00
After hosting Morning Edition for years, I know that the news can wear you down.
2
SPEAKER_00
So we made a new podcast called Wildcard, where a special deck of cards and a whole bunch of fascinating guests help us sort out what makes life meaningful.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s part game show, part existential deep dive, and it is seriously fun.
2
SPEAKER_00
Join me on Wildcard wherever you get your podcasts.
2
SPEAKER_00
Only from NPR.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you want to run us through and then we can talk about how it overlaps with sort of other modalities?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because you offer an interesting blend in your coaching with your work with Conscious Leadership Group and Drama Triangles and being above the line and below the line.
2
SPEAKER_01
Will you give us your view of the nine types?
2
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
2
SPEAKER_02
So, you know, this is obviously something I study all the time and other people read.
2
SPEAKER_02
These are books that I m condensing into really short descriptions.
2
SPEAKER_02
But for me, what I like to do when I describe each of the types is I like to talk about what was that initial wound.
2
SPEAKER_02
In other words, when I experienced challenge and difficulty as a small child, what was the lens through which I saw that?
2
SPEAKER_02
Because the lens through which I saw that then becomes the foundation for a set of strategies that kind of take me back to that place.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so if you can understand that each one of the types is trying to optimize for a particular quality of experience,
2
SPEAKER_02
that helps you anticipate, rather than like a catalog of thoughts and feelings and behaviors, it allows you to really kind of get in the skin of each of the types and sort of ask yourself, okay, if I were optimizing for full aliveness at all times,
2
SPEAKER_02
how would I act?
2
SPEAKER_02
How would I conduct myself?
2
SPEAKER_02
And that is really the foundation of type.
2
SPEAKER_02
So just to start with type 8, because I mentioned full aliveness, type 8s do have this innate, in their body, visceral experience of what does it feel like to be fully alive?
2
SPEAKER_02
Like fully turned on, fully aware of all the energetic potential that
2
SPEAKER_02
my mass contains.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it is really powerful.
2
SPEAKER_02
It is really substantial.
2
SPEAKER_02
It is like getting knocked over by a two by four, like if I really activated and got in touch with just how much energy is inside me.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it feels really good to be that powerful and that alive and that lit up.
2
SPEAKER_02
with the experience of being actually alive in this world.
2
SPEAKER_02
But what happens is in order to maintain that quality of electric potential, AIDS can then become quite controlling.
2
SPEAKER_02
They can be looking for pressure and conflict and a feeling of challenge because that actually activates the quality of aliveness.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so eights then begin to navigate and move through the world looking for, I want to feel you pushing back on me so that I can feel just how alive I am.
2
SPEAKER_02
And for many of us who are not eights that can feel domineering, too much aggressive, as I said, controlling, but from an eights perspective, it s all about, I want to feel activated.
2
SPEAKER_01
And like you know an eight when you see, I mean, most people have probably encountered eights before.
2
SPEAKER_01
There is an intensity.
2
SPEAKER_01
One of my favorite eights talks about how when she is in conflict, she feels like she s Neo in the Matrix and like the world slows down and she is just like, she can just like jujitsu and grab language in a way that is at a different,
2
SPEAKER_01
pace than everyone else like she is formidable and can be terrifying but she would acknowledge that too.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah I mean some of my favorite people are eights but I ve been on a whole journey with my own relationship with that quality of being in the world and it can be initially scary for those of us that it s not home base but I m kind of addicted to it at this point in terms of
2
SPEAKER_02
you feel really like here and very present in that aliveness.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_02
And very much when she says the Neo and the Matrix in touch with reality as it s unfolding.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Because you are in touch with your own aliveness.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s our powerful.
2
SPEAKER_02
And we can all be that powerful, actually.
2
SPEAKER_02
So then the nines, well, as the eight had sort of a bodily visceral sense of just of the sheer power and force that each human being actually has in their being.
2
SPEAKER_02
The nine, it s a much softer feeling of groundedness and feeling of profound, peaceful connection with the entire fabric of the world.
2
SPEAKER_02
So there is a feeling in the nine that I am myself, but I am also participating in something much bigger than just me.
2
SPEAKER_02
And because of that, I feel grounded and very calm.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I feel a sense of unity.
2
SPEAKER_02
many of us who are on spiritual journeys, this is sort of the quality that the nine can effortlessly experiences at times, is kind of what s held up for the rest of us around like, this is what enlightenment would feel like, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, every, every type has a shadow side as well, right, where it like can tip into
2
SPEAKER_01
Like the eight can be domineering, control, and the nines can be dissociative and numbing, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
Right.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so from a nines perspective, if you can imagine that they felt this sense of unity and harmony and all is one.
2
SPEAKER_02
And then as a young child, they experienced difficulty and pain and suffering.
2
SPEAKER_02
From their perspective, it felt like that was being shattered and like broken into a million pieces.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m losing touch with this greater fabric.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so all of the nines adaptive strategies then are about actually, if I make myself smaller, if I take out my own individual wants and desires, and if I develop strategies around comfort and disassociation and numbing,
2
SPEAKER_02
Then I can still feel like there s a sense of unity Despite the pain and suffering in the world.
2
SPEAKER_02
Hmm.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so nines ends up really kind of Diminishing themselves in this effort to maintain contact with this broader whole Yeah, and so we typically find nines very agreeable pleasant to be around with extremely different
3
SPEAKER_00
diplomatic, but often inside the nine is a real internal battle around having to subvert their own wants and desires in order to maintain and to kind of numb and dissociate from information they re receiving in their bodies that things aren t going well, so that this kind of patina of harmony can be maintained.
3
SPEAKER_01
Love those nines.
3
SPEAKER_01
Married to a nine.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or as he says, you ve told me I m a nine, so I m a nine.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, I mean, a lot of us feel really grounded and calming, around that nine way of being, because it is calming.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s the top of the circle, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Like the peacekeeper, the mediator,
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and then that ability, I mean, people talk about how we ve had more presidents that are type nine than any other type.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, especially during moments of crisis.
3
SPEAKER_00
So like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, but also Ronald Reagan, Dwight Eisenhower.
3
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
because of that ability to see, you know, like Obama, like Obama s line that, you know, we pray in the blue states and we whatever in the red states, like, you know, from his presidential, yeah, before he had declared, there is this in that ability to see the unity and the universality, there is a real ability to bridge difference and to mediate.
3
SPEAKER_00
And to whole and create a feeling of wholeness that can handle dissonance and absorb dissonance.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so at moments of crisis, that s exactly what sometimes is required.
3
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
I would have guessed that most presidents were eights or threes or ones maybe, I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_01
nines.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, I do think there s a real journey for nines to because paradoxically becoming President of the United States, it that does feel like for most of us are real assertion of, you know, individuality, yeah, and assertion of ambition, and assertion of desire and wants.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I think for most nines, and I think when you like look at the biographies of Washington, Obama, Lincoln, and some of these other nines,
3
SPEAKER_00
they actually talk about it as, this is not what I wanted to do.
3
SPEAKER_00
There was this real feeling of being called and almost them recognizing that what is required for unity to be maintained is actually for me to step into my power.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s the journey of the nine is to realize that in all the ways that they re diminishing themselves, they re actually creating more fragmentation and dissonance than they realize.
3
SPEAKER_00
And what they need to do is the opposite of what feels familiar, which is to make themselves bigger and to engage and assert themselves for the sake of unity.
3
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
Fascinating.
3
SPEAKER_01
I thought I was a one and now I m thinking I m not a one.
3
SPEAKER_01
So tell us about the ones.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, so ones come into this world with a very beautiful sense of fundamental alignment and integrity.
3
SPEAKER_00
And this idea that all of the world is like a set of pieces and parts working together in touch with the divine, in touch with a larger order.
3
SPEAKER_00
A larger sense of laws, a larger purpose, a larger something bigger than themselves.
3
SPEAKER_00
And we are all the nine sort of feels themselves like a tuning fork of connecting a feeling of divinity and sacredness to all the ways that human beings show up in this world.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so ones become very focused on being moral, principled, ethical, and recognizing the divinity in themselves, but also the divinity in others, this idea of like fundamental respect.
3
SPEAKER_00
But again, from the perspective of this is a natural home state for the one to feel, I should say also that feeling of being connected to something sacred and bigger than yourself, also creates this feeling of fundamental goodness.
3
SPEAKER_00
like there s a part of me that remains good no matter what is happening to me around me by me there is a kernel of divine goodness that s in all of us yeah but the one that begins to overreach for that and try to get back to that home base and does that often through being rigid in their belief systems overly judgmental of themselves and of other people
3
SPEAKER_00
and a real inability to tolerate imperfection, or they begin to orient to all the ways that life is deviating from that which is the larger plan or the larger order, and they begin to only see what is wrong and needs to be fixed, as opposed to remembering all that is right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so it can become quite angry, critical, exacting on themselves and on other people.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, and so the animating emotion of ones is anger the animating or I don t know I don t know if it s right to call an animating emotion of a nine a sloth Hmm and the eight is lust, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so if we were to connect this back to some of the work that Evagrius did very early on, as you mentioned, in the early 80s, these predictable ways of being in the world that harden and take us away from our relationship to reality or our relationship to source,
3
SPEAKER_00
He called the eight lust which is about as I described this it s not a sexual it can be but it is more about Like a desire for intensity.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah a desire for like an overwhelming and they wouldn t even use overwhelming but just like an all-in experience and for the nine the kind of
3
SPEAKER_00
Adaptive strategy that no longer is adaptive because it s overused is one of sloth, which is not about being lazy It is more about what I would call inertia and this kind of going with the flow With what feels easy with what feels comfortable?
3
SPEAKER_00
rather than risk
3
SPEAKER_00
dissonance and agitation yeah and as you mentioned for the one it s wrath which is this anger at all of the ways that our world is flawed and has forgotten or is not is failing to make itself known and
3
SPEAKER_00
manifest forgetting the sacredness and so the destruction and the suffering and the pain that we see in our world becomes for the one something that they are deeply angry about because it to them feels like we ve forgotten that we re part of this bigger order.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and I ll just flag here that in working with Courtney, when she pushed on my anger, I ve identified as a one, I ve also been typed as a five, that she just doesn t think it s there for me.
3
SPEAKER_01
So we can come back to that and sort of like the mistyping.
3
SPEAKER_01
But let s go to the two.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, what I would say, I think, I mean, all of us have many of us have issues with anger.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, you know, the idea that wrath is the kind of dominant feeling state that we would associate with ones, all of us can have a unique and often distorted relationship with anger.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
What it is like for a one, though, is this kind of barely suppressed cauldron of rage.
3
SPEAKER_00
that is sort of a constant familiar, it is like the undercurrent of the heart.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then there s volatility of, you know, like daily happenings.
3
SPEAKER_00
But that is that orientation.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s like this frustration of like, it could be like this and it s not.
3
SPEAKER_00
That is a fundamental part of how the one is seeing the world or viewing experiencing the world.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, and I definitely have sort of some latent rage particularly in my job, but I don t know that I m quite there I don t think I m quite peak one, but what we can talk about How many of the types look alike so two twos there?
3
SPEAKER_00
The part of being a human being in the most elevated sense of the word that the two is in touch with is our capacity for love.
3
SPEAKER_00
And love in a really sort of direct of service, you know, looking into your eyes and wanting to care for you, wanting to be related to you.
3
SPEAKER_00
and there s an attunement and a deep compassion for the other that twos quite naturally experience when they re doing their best.
3
SPEAKER_00
But what happens for a little two is it feels like their ability to be part of love and to experience love when they experience challenge and difficulty, that is what felt at risk.
3
SPEAKER_00
Hmm.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so choose them begin to take it upon themselves to be the agents of love in this world.
3
SPEAKER_00
And
4
SPEAKER_00
When they do that, there s a lot of overdoing and over caring for people in their spheres to the detriment of taking care of their own needs.
4
SPEAKER_00
And as they focus more and more on the needs of others and less and less on their own needs, martyrdom, resentment, a feeling of obligation, kind of unspoken contracts, where the two begins to hope that their expression of love towards others is going to come back around.
4
SPEAKER_00
yeah and they re going to finally experience the love that they ve been hoping for all along that kind of unconscious agenda begins to distort and kind of pervertaint what start out as very generous acts and so twos can feel overbearing to other people at times poor boundaries
4
SPEAKER_00
the one that s always giving but can never receive, depleted, stuck in like a martyrdom scenario because of this dynamic they ve set up with other people.
4
SPEAKER_00
And the original word for the feeling state of the two is pride.
4
SPEAKER_00
And what we mean by pride is not how we understand pride now, which is like, I feel good about who I am.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the original word for pride is putting myself on the realm of God rather than humanity.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s in that I m gonna take care of others and I m gonna deny my own humanity, my own needs.
4
SPEAKER_00
That is the feeling state of pride for a two.
4
SPEAKER_01
As we re going through these types, and we ll talk about testing after and sort of how far it can get you and how short it can also fall, but probably everyone can think of a two.
4
SPEAKER_01
I know so many, so many twos, like wonderful, nurturing twos.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
threes yeah so threes come into this world and understand that one of the best parts of being human is feeling of value and feeling a deep sense of there s a particular reason i am here and i am going to whatever that reason is i m going to knock it out of the park yeah i am going to
4
SPEAKER_00
take on the role I was given, the moment I showed up in this world, and I will be so radiant in it, I will have played my part and have been of deep value and of deep contribution to this world.
4
SPEAKER_00
But that feeling of being of value that young threes experience then becomes the thing that they re sort of overreaching for.
4
SPEAKER_00
And threes begin to confuse and begin to get attached to achievement and the checking of boxes and the achievement of goals as the way they demonstrate value rather than I was valuable the moment I arrived.
4
SPEAKER_00
and I m going to just be myself and be a human being and that s the way I add value.
4
SPEAKER_00
The three begins to believe it s about sort of their contribution, the external consequences of what they do in the world that make them of value rather than just in of themselves.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so threes can then get on these kind of treadmills of success, where they re hoping that just the next goal will make them happy, but then the next goal is achieved, and it doesn t.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so then a new goal needs to be set.
4
SPEAKER_00
They can be quite workaholic in terms of focusing on achievements and contribution to the detriment of emotionally connecting with other people.
4
SPEAKER_00
And because of that wanting to feel of value, threes can also sometimes look outside themselves for what s externally rewarded, either in their family system or in their culture, and begin to perform and focus their energy on the things that others care about more than themselves.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then sometimes threes can wake up in midlife and realize that they ve been looking for glory, looking for radiance,
4
SPEAKER_00
and areas of life that actually don t resonate for them as individuals.
4
SPEAKER_00
And for that reason, the feeling state that we talk about that Evagrius identified that then got lost in translation is one of vainglory, is the way that I ve been taught it by my teacher Russ Hudson.
4
SPEAKER_00
Some people say deceit, some people say vanity.
4
SPEAKER_00
I love the word vainglory because it translates literally as I m looking for glory in the wrong places.
4
SPEAKER_00
which is really the challenge for the three, is if I set my sights on something, I m all in and I can execute at this beautiful level, but I become so focused on execution and what other people want and acquiring radiance that I lose myself in the process and I never find that glory and radiance that I was initially so hungry for.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right.
4
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of CEOs are threes, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Leaders, I would imagine celebrities.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
And in particular, because threes are so accomplished and gifted at achieving goals, a lot of time in celebrity culture, you ll get a lot of threes because this is going to be best in class in that field.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so we get a lot of three exemplars in all range of fields, athletes, actors, singers, politicians, writers, because they re very determined to excel.
4
SPEAKER_00
No, it makes a lot of sense.
4
SPEAKER_00
All right, fours.
4
SPEAKER_00
So fours are really connected with, this is a difficult one for many of us to understand, but they re connected to the idea that there s an infinite depth and mystery to life.
4
SPEAKER_00
that part of being a human is the exploration of what it means to be human.
4
SPEAKER_00
And there is like a deep just kind of falling into and fascination with I ll never know.
4
SPEAKER_00
And there s something about that that feels so yummy and deep and unknowable but like kind of delicious that it s unknowable.
4
SPEAKER_00
like a fundamental part of being human that is not necessarily being functional but when it s gone the world feels very flat and very black and white and two-dimensional and so this this feeling of depth or soulfulness I might even call that the four feels very
4
SPEAKER_00
experiences quite naturally, then becomes that which they re overdoing and overreaching for.
4
SPEAKER_00
And the way they do this is becoming overly focused on who am I?
4
SPEAKER_00
And how do I differentiate who I am from everyone else?
4
SPEAKER_00
And so fours often end up becoming quite judgmental about how everything else is shallow or flat or different than they are in that quest to kind of continue that search for the mystery in themselves.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so fours often end up setting themselves apart from the world and apart from others in that attachment to being different.
4
SPEAKER_00
and so forth, then sometimes make trouble for themselves, because there s really a pushing away of the world, and a deliberate disdain for how the way the world works.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because from the force perspective, I d rather be in touch with my soulfulness, and that which makes me different than be in relationship with others and compromise my connection to this inner core.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so force can, when they re not doing well, become kind of non-functional or have a hard time figuring out how to navigate the world because of this desire to be in touch with the beautiful mystery.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they re typically are artists.
4
SPEAKER_01
Doesn t everyone kind of want to be a four?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I feel that for whatever reason in the American culture, there is this, you know, romanticization of the longing to know oneself.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
And actually all of us are interested in knowing ourselves.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s part of what the Enneagram is about actually is like initially for many people mirror me, show me who I am.
4
SPEAKER_00
So that s a very human thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the degree of attachment to which the four is basically on a never ending search
4
SPEAKER_00
like a frustrated, I will never find who I am, it s an endless inquiry, and that is painful, but I kind of like the pain of it.
4
SPEAKER_00
That piece of the quest to know oneself, it s like most of us who are not for us can t really understand the agony of it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Envy, is that their?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so their envy.
5
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so we sort of think of envy as more about something s always missing.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m so close to finding myself.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m so close to, you know, coming in contact with, you know, the core of beauty or mystery or, you know, like, basically kind of like this origin of source in me, but then I missed the mark.
5
SPEAKER_00
And this is never quite, and I do that in relationships, I do that in jobs, I do that with objects, I do that with projects.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have these like high expectations for how this could be the thing that connects me to depth and texture.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then every time my hopes are kind of dashed.
5
SPEAKER_00
Got it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
I do love my force.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
I feel like people are always angling to be a force.
5
SPEAKER_01
Maybe they re the rarest.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
And a lot of times because they have a moodiness.
5
SPEAKER_00
And one of the other things I should say is that in that desire to feel different, force can really over identify with the negative spectrum of feelings rather than the positive ones.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because from their perspective, everyone wants to be happy.
5
SPEAKER_00
Everyone wants to be joyful and no one wants to grieve.
5
SPEAKER_00
No one wants to be
5
SPEAKER_00
in touch with all of the ugly parts of being human.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so I m gonna be that person so that I can feel how different I am than the rest of the world.
5
SPEAKER_00
But then fours kind of take over that territory and forget that they can also be light.
5
SPEAKER_00
But because of that association of fours with depth of emotion, we also romanticize that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because the reality is many of us are internally
5
SPEAKER_00
quite ruled by emotion.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it s at a whole nother level for the four.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_01
Five.
5
SPEAKER_01
I thought I was a five.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t think I m a five, but I love fives too.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
So in the same way that the four is in touch with the idea that part of being a human is this eternal exploration of meaning and depth and
5
SPEAKER_00
you know, what are we doing here?
5
SPEAKER_00
What am I all about?
5
SPEAKER_00
The five is also equally interested in that, but is experiencing it much more from like a mental construct.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so is really touched with a part of being a human that is all about what is yet to be illuminated or what is yet to be known.
5
SPEAKER_00
And this beautiful sense of each moment there s something new to be discovered.
5
SPEAKER_00
Each moment there s something that was not previously seen that is.
5
SPEAKER_00
And the more pieces of that I can touch, the more I get a sense of, like a sense of deep clarity and mental stillness about this is how the world works.
5
SPEAKER_00
And there s a great feeling of calmness.
5
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, I see the underlying structure that is really supporting the world.
5
SPEAKER_00
Supporting the world is a sixth phrase, but you might, you know, like many fives are scientists.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so it s not just that we re animals, it s, you know, that we re human beings.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s not just that we re human beings, we re made of molecules.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s not just that we re molecules, we re made of atoms.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s not just that we re atoms, we re made of neutrons.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so there s this focusing down into what is the essential makeup of the world that creates a feeling of clarity that fives are really searching for.
5
SPEAKER_00
And what ends up happening is fives then begin to be quite focused on understanding the world at the expense of being in the world.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that desire to see underlying structure,
5
SPEAKER_00
fives begin to think that they have to not participate, they need to be detached from the world in order to see that.
5
SPEAKER_00
And they begin to withdraw more and more and more for the sake of what they would say like neutrality or objectivity.
5
SPEAKER_00
And paradoxically, the more they withdraw as fives become less and less healthy, the more delusional they can become.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so there s a real sort of isolation that is part of the five way of being in the world.
5
SPEAKER_00
And also sort of a belief that everything could be understood through the head.
5
SPEAKER_00
That everything at the end of the day is a mental construct.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so a kind of forgetting about the other parts of us, our hearts and bodies, and what it feels like to connect and be in those parts of ourselves, that the five kind of tends to override and forget about.
5
SPEAKER_00
The original sin or way that this personality kind of gets over hardened and kind of doubled down upon by the five, the word that we use is avarice, which got translated to greediness, but really we think of it as a withholding.
5
SPEAKER_00
This kind of a stinginess of like, under what circumstances do I allow my full humanity to come forward?
5
SPEAKER_00
Do I allow myself to fully participate?
5
SPEAKER_00
The five, it becomes very, very choosy about when he or she s willing to do that, on what terms, is it like a certain subject we can relate in this way?
5
SPEAKER_00
And the more withdrawn, the more they believe in their own sort of, I need to be stingy with my humanity, the more withdrawn they become.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think my oldest is five, but we ll see.
5
SPEAKER_00
Sixes.
5
SPEAKER_00
Sixes.
5
SPEAKER_00
So this is this is my type, and maybe your type, who knows.
5
SPEAKER_00
And similar to five, sixes, there is this ability to see reality clearly, and see all the different things that are unfolding in reality.
5
SPEAKER_00
Sixes feel profoundly
5
SPEAKER_00
oriented and supported in their ability to see reality.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that feeling of support allows sixes to feel comfortable about the way forward in life.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so there s a deep feeling of stability and I trust my relationship with reality and it
5
SPEAKER_00
enables me to move forward.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s a delicious quality that sixes came into this world naturally experiencing.
5
SPEAKER_00
But from a sixes perspective, that feeling is lost when we experience challenge and difficulty and it feels like the rug has been pulled out from underneath us and there is nothing below.
5
SPEAKER_00
And there becomes this kind of fundamental lack of orientation to how am I going to make my way through the world.
5
SPEAKER_00
And Sikhs are quite fearful of how do I make a decision.
5
SPEAKER_00
And we begin looking outside ourselves for advice, for systems, for belief structures, for communities, for partners who can help bring back that feeling of support and stability we re looking for as we move forward.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so then sixes become overly focused on trying to create security and stability through their relationships with others, rather than sourcing it through their own decision making and their own trust and their own ability to move forward.
5
SPEAKER_00
Six is also in that relentlessness of trying to figure out how does, you know, what are all the points of view, I need to see them all before I can figure out how to go forward.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s a restlessness of the mind that actually from a sixes perspective is they re trying to calm themselves down.
5
SPEAKER_00
by trying to learn everything and try to understand everyone s point of view before they make a decision.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it often ends up only creating more anxiety for the six and confusing them all the more.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so then sixes can be quite reactive about how what they re trying to do is not really working for them.
5
SPEAKER_00
And we can get lost in being dutiful, being overly responsible.
5
SPEAKER_00
trying to not please others because we want them to love us, but please others because we want them to, we want to feel like they re on our side as we move forward in the world.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that begins to cause sixes to lose track of themselves and then get very angry about it.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that animating impulse is fear, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it is.
5
SPEAKER_00
And the way I learned it through my teacher, Russ Hudson, is it s because all types have fear at different points.
5
SPEAKER_00
He likes the word, and I agree, angst, which is this sort of existential dread that can never be truly satisfied.
5
SPEAKER_00
So either I m scanning and trying to anticipate what s going to go wrong,
5
SPEAKER_00
Or if I even land for one moment on, actually, things seem to be all right, it s kind of like, well, I don t trust that.
5
SPEAKER_00
What am I missing?
5
SPEAKER_00
And so it s kind of this never resting, waiting for the other shoe to fall.
5
SPEAKER_00
We make up the story that it s about specific fears, but it s really much more existential than that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Got it.
5
SPEAKER_00
So sevens really come feeling the exuberance and possibility of life and what can be
6
SPEAKER_00
created.
6
SPEAKER_00
And that feeling of who knows what s possible naturally creates a feeling of exuberance and freedom and what I would call causeless positivity.
6
SPEAKER_00
Because we never know what s going to happen around the corner.
6
SPEAKER_00
And that means I can always find joy.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
And always find freedom.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so sevens come in touch with the ability of human beings to create a new.
6
SPEAKER_00
and the joy that comes from that.
6
SPEAKER_00
But become overly attached to sustaining that quality and experience pain and challenge specifically through the lens of you re depriving me of joy, you re depriving me of possibility, you re depriving me of freedom.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so sevens then begin to experience the world through a sensation of I feel trapped.
6
SPEAKER_00
I feel like you re forcing me to stay in discomfort in a way I don t have to.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so sevens can tend to be quite fidgety.
6
SPEAKER_00
They tend to use their mind to anticipate and kind of leave the present moment and imagine what s possible.
6
SPEAKER_00
But they re in doing so their tolerance for discomfort lessons and lessons and lessons.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so there s like almost like a frenetic energy in that I ve got to keep moving so that I never feel trapped.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so there is this kind of like butterfly refusing to be pinned down quality to sevens where ironically, because they re never landing in the moment, they re never actually experiencing true joy, but are generating ideas, possibilities, companies, plans.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know, it would be great.
6
SPEAKER_00
We should do this.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so it s very charming and a really, really fun ride, but can be exhausting and can feel like you re actually never taking in the goodness of what you re experiencing because you re so quickly on to the next thing.
6
SPEAKER_00
And there the word is gluttony, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Gluttony, which is really all about we tend to think of it less like about like overconsuming and more about like, I want the buffet.
6
SPEAKER_00
yeah like i want every taste and like this one s pretty great but that one might be better like that kind of quality yeah yeah i love my sevens they re party animals and
6
SPEAKER_01
But I don t identify.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, Robin Williams is a great example of a seven capturing the shadow and the beauty of the seven because it s so charming.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s so hilarious.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like, it s so playful.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know, the machinations his mind is doing as he laughs at himself and others.
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it s just it s delightful.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it s also really exhausting.
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
6
SPEAKER_00
And how do we have a real conversation of depth if this is the only way you re willing to be?
6
SPEAKER_00
And that becomes the trap for sevens that they put themselves into.
6
SPEAKER_01
So people listening, I mean, there are a million short free tests online, and then there s, I ve done the Ready R-H-E-T-I through the Enneagram Institute, which typed me as a one.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ve done tests that type me as a five, and then Courtney thinks I m a six.
6
SPEAKER_01
She broke it down for me at dinner last night.
6
SPEAKER_01
She might be right.
6
SPEAKER_01
I might be.
6
SPEAKER_01
You might be right.
6
SPEAKER_01
I might not, but I might be.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I guess testing just inherently is always going to be limited, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
Or is it like who we want to be?
6
SPEAKER_01
Is it that the six, by coming out as a one, that somehow gives me the confidence or the surety to escape my anxiety?
6
SPEAKER_00
I really do think that there is a romantization of the one for the six, by the six for that reason, because we re longing for that certainty of what to do.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I also believe that regardless of your type, it s really just difficult for I mean, there are so many studies time and again, that people are just not really able to accurately see themselves and on so many different domains.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so I think that s, it s not about the ready or any test itself, it s more about that human condition.
6
SPEAKER_00
Someone typed me as a six and I overrode that and said I was a one instead initially, and then really had to be open to hearing feedback from a lot of other people.
6
SPEAKER_00
And then I think the other thing that s especially tricky, like the strength of the Enneagram system, but also its weakness from a typing perspective, type manifests as your habituated behavior patterns.
6
SPEAKER_00
However, it s predicated upon the underlying structure or beliefs you have to have about the world in order for that behavior pattern to make sense.
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
6
SPEAKER_00
And that s like a subterranean level to self that most of us are not aware of.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I can tell you that I m organized.
6
SPEAKER_00
I can tell you that I m conscientious.
6
SPEAKER_00
But why am I that way?
6
SPEAKER_00
I can give you some language around wanting to do a good job.
6
SPEAKER_00
But what does that actually mean?
6
SPEAKER_00
Why do I want to do a good job?
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
6
SPEAKER_00
What happens if I don t do a good job?
6
SPEAKER_00
And it s that level of inquiry that s really, really hard to do in a forced answer, forced choice test like the Ready or any of the other ones that are available online.
6
SPEAKER_00
So for me, I really like them because I do think they can narrow down the range to two or three.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I think that whether you work with a professional to get typed thereafter, or you talk to other people in your lives and have them in your life and listen to their feedback,
6
SPEAKER_00
Or you even just hold two open as possibilities.
6
SPEAKER_00
And part of the growth process, I mean, the Enneagram is designed to build self-awareness.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so even giving yourself permission to not settle on type for six months to a year and say, these are the two that I m actively exploring, you re going to learn a lot from that.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah well it s interesting because with all of these you hear it all the time culturally people saying well like I m a Virgo or I m a you know I m a Virgo rising so this explains my attention to detail etc or like we start to use these things as crutches in some ways or shortcuts which is helpful right if you want to know who you re contending with but I would imagine at a certain point it also becomes
6
SPEAKER_01
a hindrance or the way that we can become stuck.
6
SPEAKER_01
And as you said at the beginning, Gurdjieff was all about movement, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
Will you talk just briefly, because it s a subject of a whole nother podcast, but about the Law of Three and sort of this animating the way that he sees growth?
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, this is something that I know, like you ve had Cynthia Bourgeot on and lots of other people who write really beautifully and talk about this.
6
SPEAKER_00
But if you look at the Enneagram symbol itself, there is a circle, and then all of those different lines inside there, some of those lines are a triangle that connect nine, three, and six.
6
SPEAKER_00
And what this is supposed to demonstrate is, if you start with a principle of unity, and then
6
SPEAKER_00
you begin to differentiate into self.
6
SPEAKER_00
The moment I stake a claim around I am, the moment I name a tree, the moment I call this planet we re sitting on Earth, the moment I give identity to anything, by definition, I am also giving identity to its opposite.
6
SPEAKER_00
And there cannot be a thing without a non-thing.
6
SPEAKER_00
Mm hmm.
6
SPEAKER_00
And that s actually the foundations upon which self trees, the earth, anything grows, because the law of three is about, if we say three represents in the Enneagram, the coming forward of the eye, or the coming forward of the thing, the resistance of its opposite,
6
SPEAKER_00
is actually what provokes and causes the eye to change and evolve.
6
SPEAKER_00
And there is a higher order, a higher vibration, a different concept of self that I can grow into.
6
SPEAKER_00
if I allow myself to experience and value and work with resistance.
6
SPEAKER_00
And that is the law of three, which is I move forward and what I want, I affirm my I.
6
SPEAKER_00
I want this.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I experienced resistance, a negating force.
6
SPEAKER_00
No, you can t have this.
6
SPEAKER_00
No, it s not going to work that way.
6
SPEAKER_00
But what about this?
6
SPEAKER_00
Someone I perceive stands in my way.
6
SPEAKER_00
And then my opportunity is to see what s
7
SPEAKER_01
the version of what I want?
7
SPEAKER_01
What s the version of who I am?
7
SPEAKER_01
What s the broader way I can see the world where these two things are no longer in opposition.
7
SPEAKER_01
And when I m able to develop a mindset or a perspective that resolves that polarity,
7
SPEAKER_01
I grow.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right.
7
SPEAKER_01
And that s really one of the foundational principles of self growth that s embedded in the Enneagram.
7
SPEAKER_01
But it is also true, not just at the self level, but from a Gurdjieff perspective, the way the world changes.
7
SPEAKER_00
Right.
7
SPEAKER_01
and all of the world can be seen through the lens of there s always some force pushing for something, another force resisting, and our job is to see how to hold them both.
7
SPEAKER_00
I think Bourgeot describes it as affirming, denying, reconciling.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s that transcendent include.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and that reconciling is not a compromise.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s a true something new comes of this that is previously not available to me.
7
SPEAKER_00
And she describes the metaphors she uses are sort of the seed going into the soil, and then it s either sort of water or sun, I can t remember, or that the wind hits the sail at a certain angle and the boat is propelled forward.
7
SPEAKER_00
But this growth is driven from
7
SPEAKER_00
these two forces meeting in the middle.
7
SPEAKER_01
And how can I describe that relationship?
7
SPEAKER_01
How can I build a relationship between those two things that no longer sees them in opposition?
7
SPEAKER_01
What s the element that needs to be introduced that forces them to collaborate and work together and literally synthesize
7
SPEAKER_01
into something new.
7
SPEAKER_00
Right.
7
SPEAKER_00
So thinking about it, trying to like live my new sick self rather than putting myself out in the world and looking for confirmation that I should be full of fear or anxiety to be met by resistance and then to move beyond it is growth rather than looking for confirmation of what I feel is true.
7
SPEAKER_00
Right.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like I m scared of this.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I wanna do this, something s getting in my way, this is the thing I m experiencing as resistance, but perhaps there s another way of holding this that s not about fear, that then these two things feel in allyship.
7
SPEAKER_00
Right.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I know we ve gone long but just because I think it s relevant will you wrap us up here because in a way when you talk about conscious leadership group and Diana Chapman s work and Below the line and above the line and this idea that the world is happening to me below the line and when I m above the line it s happening by me that also feels like a
7
SPEAKER_00
you re either stepping into a co-creative effort with this law of three, accepting this resistance and allowing it to move you, or you re acting like this person s resisting me because I m a victim.
7
SPEAKER_00
And is that accurate?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
So just to back us up for a moment, I first encountered the Enneagram through doing my own personal development work with Conscious Leadership Group, which is run by Diana Chapman and Jim Detmer.
7
SPEAKER_01
And
7
SPEAKER_01
they are really gifted at curating from a number of different sources to put together a pretty comprehensive offering of what does it mean to be conscious in this world.
7
SPEAKER_01
And the Enneagram is one of those tools that just I took, you know, went under this big rabbit hole that I ll never emerge from, thankfully.
7
SPEAKER_01
But I think it s really important to say that whether it s Conscious Leadership Group or something else,
7
SPEAKER_01
The Enneagram is really a map of different human strategies for encountering challenge and different human strategies that ultimately cause us to forget that there is a self here that is beyond personality.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so one of the things I experience people as challenged by with the Enneagram, which you were speaking about a little bit, is it can be tempting to read all the books
7
SPEAKER_01
and to just kind of double down on, well, that s the way a two is, or I guess this is just who I am.
7
SPEAKER_01
And part of the reason that happens is because the Enneagram needs to be married with tools for how do I actually work with this.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so you might sort of say that the Enneagram is providing language for understanding the affirming and negating forces in your life.
7
SPEAKER_01
But unless you have some sort of modality that s helping you reconcile those forces, be it conscious leadership group or your own therapy or a spiritual group or work one-on-one with a coach, unless you have an active ingredient like that,
7
SPEAKER_01
You can read all you want about the Enneagram and growth is not going to happen.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so that s why for me, I marry so much of the Tools of Conscious Leadership group with my work on the Enneagram, because I really don t see how the Enneagram can be used effectively without some sort of chosen tools and practices.
7
SPEAKER_01
And one of the systems that Conscious Leadership Group offers that I think is really valuable that we talked about in our Substack article is this lens of, is the world happening to me or is it happening by me and for me?
7
SPEAKER_01
And in the lens of to me, I am needing to defend, promote, and protect.
7
SPEAKER_01
And you can basically think of the Enneagram, your Enneagram type,
7
SPEAKER_01
as your chosen way of being below the line.
7
SPEAKER_01
These are the strategies that I ve learned to navigate what feels like bad stuff happening way out of my control.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then I get a choice whether I want to use some of these strategies that I ve honed really brilliantly over the years, but change the way I relate to them.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I still have the strategy, but it s not who I am.
7
SPEAKER_01
And when I change the way I hold my relationship to it, when it no longer becomes
7
SPEAKER_01
This is me.
7
SPEAKER_01
It just becomes like, this is one of the tools in my toolbox that I ve honed really, really well.
7
SPEAKER_01
I can use this or I can pick another one.
7
SPEAKER_01
that is what I would call the reconciling force that allows you to begin to shift the way you relate to your experience and to become, to see and take responsibility for the way you re making meaning of the world, which is actually the thing that s driving whether your experience of the world.
7
SPEAKER_00
We talked about in that newsletter
7
SPEAKER_00
when we are above the line, we are co-creating arcs, we re seeing opportunities or what s happening to us as learnings or as useful resistance.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s hard to stay above the line though.
7
SPEAKER_00
Most of us, we are below the line most of the time, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean,
7
SPEAKER_01
And that s why it s good to have a laugh about it and be compassionate because, again, from an evolutionary perspective, being in a state of fear is really adaptive.
7
SPEAKER_01
It keeps you alive.
7
SPEAKER_01
you know, we just, there s a lot that we protect and hold on to when we live life from below the line.
7
SPEAKER_01
But there s a lot that we miss out on, right.
7
SPEAKER_01
And that s what Above the Line is about, is really sort of reminding human beings of when
7
SPEAKER_01
I m not operating from fear, what is it possible for me to do?
7
SPEAKER_01
Or from the perspective of the Enneagram type, when I m not so attached to this search I ve kind of developed for myself around either full aliveness, or peacefulness, or being an agent of love, or feeling fundamental purity, or you know, I can go around the circle,
7
SPEAKER_01
When I actually trust that I can experience that whenever I want, that it s not about the external circumstances of my life, then how do I make my way through the world?
7
SPEAKER_01
Then what choices do I make?
7
SPEAKER_01
What is possible?
7
SPEAKER_01
And that s what it feels like to be a co-creator.
7
SPEAKER_00
I hope that Courtney Smith continues to bring her brilliant mind and work more out into the world.
7
SPEAKER_00
She currently leads groups, and I m hoping, I m pushing for her to write a book because she has one of those rare abilities to take so many different models and systems and marry them and break them down and distill them in ways that help us lead, I guess we would say, more conscious, more evolved,
7
SPEAKER_00
more revealed lives.
7
SPEAKER_00
And she does this, you know, we sort of talk about these concepts generally loosely culturally as the vertical, which I would say is sort of our connection to something more
8
SPEAKER_00
or to whatever that means to you.
8
SPEAKER_00
The source of inspiration, energy, and then the horizontal, which is how we lead our days and our lives.
8
SPEAKER_00
And so often we partition these two spaces into different zones.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I love people like Courtney who encourage us to spill the vertical into the horizontal and to bring more awareness to how we re leading our lives.
8
SPEAKER_00
Very, typically very quotidian, basic daily interactions.
8
SPEAKER_00
But how do we make those above the line?
8
SPEAKER_00
How do we continue to grow and get bigger?
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, thank you for listening.
8
SPEAKER_00
If you liked today s episode, please rate and review and tell a friend.
8
SPEAKER_00
You can find show notes and full transcripts of the episodes at EliseLoonan.com.
8
SPEAKER_00
While there, please sign up for my sub stack.
8
SPEAKER_00
I send a short note every Wednesday about topics that are aligned with this show and a deeper dive most Sundays.
8
SPEAKER_00
Or follow me on Instagram at EliseLoonan.
8
SPEAKER_00
And finally, if you haven t already, please consider picking up a copy of my New York Times bestselling book, On Our Best Behavior, The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good, available wherever you get your books.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s an exploration of how women have been conditioned for goodness, men for power, and all the ways we ve been programmed to police ourselves and each other according to these cultural ideas of what it is to be a good woman.
8
SPEAKER_00
I d also like to give a huge thank you to my sponsors who make this show possible.
8
SPEAKER_00
Please support them the way they support this podcast.
8
SPEAKER_00
This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studio.
8
SPEAKER_00
If you enjoyed this episode, please listen, rate, review, and follow Pulling the Thread.
8
SPEAKER_00
Available now for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.
8
SPEAKER_00
I want to give a shout out to Phil Svitek, Lauren Legrasso, Mary-Kate McDonough, Allie Brockman, and the entire Cadence 13 team for producing these episodes, and to Valero Duval for my key art.
8
SPEAKER_00
Take care of yourselves.