0
SPEAKER_01
Where s he at?
0
SPEAKER_01
Oh, fuck.
0
SPEAKER_01
He just said he can t attend the call.
0
SPEAKER_01
No explanation.
0
SPEAKER_01
He was just in the waiting room, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
Did something come up?
0
SPEAKER_03
I mean, just try to try to have him reschedule.
0
SPEAKER_03
Oh, my Consta s in the lobby right now.
0
SPEAKER_02
Let him in!
0
SPEAKER_02
Don t even wait.
0
SPEAKER_02
Just let him in.
0
SPEAKER_02
Let him in.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, just let him in.
0
SPEAKER_02
Let him in.
0
SPEAKER_02
We re rolling right now.
0
SPEAKER_02
All right.
0
SPEAKER_02
Let him in.
0
SPEAKER_02
Hey, everyone.
0
SPEAKER_03
Surprise, surprise.
0
SPEAKER_04
Yo.
0
SPEAKER_04
What s up?
0
SPEAKER_04
Severe apologies.
0
SPEAKER_04
Extremely bad timing on my side.
0
SPEAKER_01
Dude, it s okay.
0
SPEAKER_04
Down to the second.
0
SPEAKER_04
But I m here now.
0
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
0
SPEAKER_01
No, we re just really glad we have you.
0
SPEAKER_01
We just got off.
0
SPEAKER_01
Actually, James and Alot were just in here.
0
SPEAKER_01
We were talking about rescheduling.
0
SPEAKER_01
So, I m down to just run it right now if you are.
0
SPEAKER_01
Let s go.
0
SPEAKER_00
You re gonna have the best cold open of any podcast that s ever If you could listen to what we ve been spewing for the last 10 minutes with James and Allah trying to figure this out, bro It s gonna be like the beginning of an Eminem song
0
SPEAKER_03
No, excited to have you here.
0
SPEAKER_03
The first thing I wanted to talk about is just the fantastically loud BitTensor fan base or the TAO community on Twitter.
0
SPEAKER_03
So I was doing some prep work for this pod.
0
SPEAKER_03
um reading like the about section in the white paper and stuff and put out my first ever tweet with the tau kind of hashtag or tagging the tensor open tensor and I thought I was back in the bull market of 2021 like the amount of of real replies like these are not bots these are real people that are searching the hashtag commenting on my tweet and it was all like positive you know bullish stuff and not even all all moon boy stuff either but
0
SPEAKER_03
Just was really, really impressed with the amount of traction that that s we got immediately.
0
SPEAKER_03
I think it s really great to see your community so strong.
0
SPEAKER_03
I think a lot of people say like culture and community flow from the top of an organization or a project.
0
SPEAKER_03
So, you know, would you say you or laws contributed to that or have these have these madmen just sprung up out of nowhere?
0
SPEAKER_03
Like what s your what s your take on the town community?
0
SPEAKER_04
Well, we certainly didn t do it purposefully.
0
SPEAKER_04
That just arose very organically.
0
SPEAKER_04
We just focused on building what we wanted to build and didn t do a pre-mine and released the thing and spoke about what we were really into and people showed up.
0
SPEAKER_04
We led with why, I think, and people were like, yes, that s an answer to this.
0
SPEAKER_04
really pressing problem for humanity, or whatever they found.
0
SPEAKER_04
To be honest, all the marketing isn t us.
0
SPEAKER_04
And sometimes we cringe because we re like, wait a second, that isn t exactly how I would say that, or that isn t quite right.
0
SPEAKER_04
But it s a co-creation.
0
SPEAKER_04
That s one of the beautiful things about
0
SPEAKER_04
these digital markets or these nation states, these digital nation states, I don t have total control over the messaging.
0
SPEAKER_04
We get to define what we are collectively.
0
SPEAKER_04
So no, the answer is I did not try to stimulate that at all.
0
SPEAKER_04
It just really happened.
0
SPEAKER_04
And now it s an amazing force of people that we share a common vision.
0
SPEAKER_04
Although, like I said, sometimes it s a little bit scatterbrained.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, no, that s awesome.
0
SPEAKER_03
Well, I m sure I ll be running and hiding from my mentions in the bull market when there s even more retail interest and you guys have grown significantly.
0
SPEAKER_04
It s a little bit like, I feel like we ve cultivated almost like a Bitcoin maximalist as sort of toxicity, maybe.
0
SPEAKER_04
I mean, I hate to say that, but I mean, no, no, no.
0
SPEAKER_04
By that, I mean like it s a very strong
0
SPEAKER_04
cultural team, there s strong memes, and very, very, very activated people that believe in what we re doing.
0
SPEAKER_04
And I m sure we re going to get into why that is at a later date.
0
SPEAKER_04
But yes, it s noticeable.
0
SPEAKER_04
And people have always said we have like one of the strongest Twitter brigades.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, no, 100%.
0
SPEAKER_03
Mahesh s partner, Sal, said you guys have the young boy NBA fans of crypto as a crypto community.
0
SPEAKER_03
I don t know what that means.
0
SPEAKER_03
That s a rapper and he has a rabid fan base.
0
SPEAKER_03
These people will do anything for him.
0
SPEAKER_03
Aggressive, loud, making noise.
0
SPEAKER_03
And I think that s exactly what you want from a crypto community, especially in a bear market win.
0
SPEAKER_04
And why do you think that is?
0
SPEAKER_04
Why do you think that is?
0
SPEAKER_03
I mean, I think the fact that you mentioned the pre-mine, I think that that probably had a lot to do with it.
0
SPEAKER_03
I think a lot of community members are probably disillusioned at this point in the cycle with very early stage VC allocations of tokens and getting dumped on and having all these scams and fraud happen.
0
SPEAKER_03
So when something is launched that fairly, I think it probably really does get their buy-in from day one.
0
SPEAKER_04
That has a big part of it, but I think it s a little bit like because there s a rabbit hole here.
0
SPEAKER_04
about what this technology is and how it works in a similar way that there is a rabble hole with Bitcoin.
0
SPEAKER_04
It s like you first you learn about Bitcoin and you re like, oh, that s cool.
0
SPEAKER_04
It s a new currency.
0
SPEAKER_04
Or you think, gosh, that s a scam.
0
SPEAKER_04
And then you learn more and you re like, oh, my God, we re taking down the fiat dominance hierarchy of the world.
0
SPEAKER_04
It s a scam that stretches back before the era of the Roman emperors.
0
SPEAKER_04
And we ve lived in this, you know, matrix all this time.
0
SPEAKER_04
Like that s the Bitcoin rabbit hole that people fall into and they just become obsessed.
0
SPEAKER_04
And I ve been there before, like obsessed.
0
SPEAKER_04
You know, the Bitcoin solves this thing, right?
0
SPEAKER_04
Like everyone says that all the time.
0
SPEAKER_04
Because it s like a myoptic look on the world to see everything from within the lens of fiat.
0
SPEAKER_04
Like what is Fiat?
0
SPEAKER_04
Fiat is the big lie.
0
SPEAKER_04
It s similar to like the Marduk religious figure from the ancient Persians, right?
0
SPEAKER_04
Like they re fighting the ultimate lie.
0
SPEAKER_04
Like that was what Xerxes was against.
0
SPEAKER_04
I think it s a similar thing.
0
SPEAKER_04
There s almost a religious connection with the technology that you get by actually aiming these technologies in the right direction.
0
SPEAKER_04
So I think it says a lot about the fact that we re properly aimed.
0
SPEAKER_04
Now, what is the Tao rabbit hole?
0
SPEAKER_04
And I think that it s something along the lines of, it s a different answer to the current political and cultural battle that we re in right now around artificial intelligence.
0
SPEAKER_04
I don t know if you guys saw this P. Marka thread, the Optimists Manifesto, the techno, everyone s been talking about this, it s really fantastic.
0
SPEAKER_04
It s a clarion call for a lot of people that are in the, like, the e-slash-ac, the e-ac communities, the accelerationists, the libertarians, the people that are pro-technology, and they re fighting against, you know, that we ve demarcated the world into these two groups, kind of like the up-wing and the down-wing political
0
SPEAKER_04
philosophies which is one is like let s be pro technology and let s move forward and let s break things it s like that that YC startup you know grungy bottom-up vibe and then you have the the regulators and the the D cells they re worried about the issues of artificial intelligence possibly taking over the world and I think the thing about BitTensor which is unique is that we kind of fall right down the middle because we re not just
0
SPEAKER_04
suit totally on PMarCa s side.
0
SPEAKER_04
Like we re not, you know, Marc Andreessen is aligned with us in many ways, but we re not saying that we re against regulation.
0
SPEAKER_04
We re not saying that this technology is not without risks.
0
SPEAKER_04
We re just saying, well, this is how we should regulate it in an effective way, right?
0
SPEAKER_04
We ve come right down the middle.
0
SPEAKER_04
And I think that when people kind of find these ideas that open up
1
SPEAKER_02
and allow us to answer questions in a completely different way that the classic cultural divide is trying to answer them.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I think, unsuccessfully, people get obsessed with that.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that s what Bitcoin did really well.
1
SPEAKER_02
People were like, oh, it s the left wing versus the right wing.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then Bitcoin said, just go third dimension on this chart and become a Bitcoiner.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I think that that s something that we try to offer.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s what we re trying to do.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s not what we re trying to offer.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s what we re trying to do with this technology.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, I mean 100%.
1
SPEAKER_01
Another thing I was curious about is your screen name.
1
SPEAKER_01
So here we ve got you as Const on Twitter.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re Const underscore Reborn.
1
SPEAKER_01
What s the meaning behind that?
1
SPEAKER_01
What does it mean to you?
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, it s not that interesting.
1
SPEAKER_02
I was, I, when I left Google, I, I, I came up with a pseudonym of Constantine Damore, because I was, I really liked James Damore.
1
SPEAKER_02
If you remember the guy that wrote the Google manifesto when he got fired.
1
SPEAKER_02
Do you remember this it was a whole thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I picked up the pseudonym that was Constantine to more which meant like always in love.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s kind of weird poetic and that became my pseudonym I think a lot of people have this same story with their pseudonyms, like if you if you ask if you ask where it came
1
SPEAKER_02
It s some weird story out there that they ve just held on to.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then it became Constance, you know, computer science, like a constant variable.
1
SPEAKER_02
I wish it was something much more memetic, like Satoshi Nakamoto.
1
SPEAKER_02
What does that mean?
1
SPEAKER_02
Is it central intelligence or, you know, something that would captivate people?
1
SPEAKER_02
But in reality, there s not too much depth to the Const name.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that s, my real name is Jake.
1
SPEAKER_00
touching on something you just briefly mentioned in passing right now, but you ve been talking about how the YC business model is dead, or at least inferior to the open ownership model that crypto enables.
1
SPEAKER_00
Can you expand on that?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because I feel like a lot of people would find that interesting right now.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, on the face of it, it seems blatantly obvious that you want to build technologies that everyone loves.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that s sort of the YC model, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
Build something that people love.
1
SPEAKER_02
The problem is that implicit in that design is this separation between the people building and the people receiving the technology.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that s got a lot of people very worried when it comes to this new god that we re creating.
1
SPEAKER_02
intelligence carnate in, you know, we ve turned, we ve made sand think as Marc Andreessen said, and we re worried about
1
SPEAKER_02
The singularity, this moment where this technology runs away and potentially we don t understand the effects that it s going to have on society, whether or not it s a robot takeover or we re all soaked up, sucked up in the cloud or it s something like transcendence where an AI just controls everyone behind the scenes.
1
SPEAKER_02
I think that those are reasonable concerns.
1
SPEAKER_02
I m not a decel.
1
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I m not saying that we shouldn t make AI, but we should make sure we birth it into the right ecosystem.
1
SPEAKER_02
So anyways, the YC model applied to this incredible technology starts with this implicit separation between the people that are going to consume the technology and the people that create it.
1
SPEAKER_02
And when you have this asymmetry,
1
SPEAKER_02
this huge asymmetry between the amount of value that can be created and the power that s going to be created.
1
SPEAKER_02
And we stick with that same asymmetry.
1
SPEAKER_02
I think that humanity is potentially at risk where we have all the power in one place.
1
SPEAKER_02
We have all the value creation in one place.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that s not...
1
SPEAKER_02
natural.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s not connected.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s not symbiotic.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I think that the people that are working on this technology kind of know that there s going to be this lack of connection, this anti-symbiosis between the technology and the people that own the technology and the people that consume it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Sam Altman s a great example, and he s calling
1
SPEAKER_02
You know he s promoting world coin, and you know behind that is this idea of potentially having a UBI Well, we re gonna soak up all the value one way, and then we re gonna give it back right
1
SPEAKER_02
all based on this separation between the consumer and the producer, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
We ll just give it back to UBI.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I think that s really an unhealthy system, a really unhealthy equilibrium between the technology that we re creating, this powerful, super powerful thing, and the way that we can own it and control it.
1
SPEAKER_02
So cryptocurrency is inverted, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
There is no separation between the owners and the technology.
1
SPEAKER_02
a union between the technology and the people that create the technology.
1
SPEAKER_02
Not only does it create something amazing, not only can we aim this collective organization at building supercomputers like Bitcoin mining or BitTensor mining, we can co-locate a bunch of resources and aim them and potentially build something much bigger than these centralized corporations, but then we can also do it in the way that at the end, the people that contributed are the owners, and there s no separation between those,
1
SPEAKER_02
contributors and the consumers and the people that made it and all those things are unified.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s not cancerous, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
It s connected.
1
SPEAKER_02
I think that that s, you know, at the beginning it was talking about how BitTensor tries to follow a path down the center of this political divide that is being created with the, you know, why does Marc Andreessen feel the need to write a manifesto?
1
SPEAKER_02
He s like what he s like 50 year old man like you know he there s implicit is sort of like a.
1
SPEAKER_02
certainly a concern and like a lack of confidence of self like that we need to somehow you know fight the other side because they re winning and and I think in that s true it s like there s but there s been a breakdown of communication between the regulators and and those that are the problem solvers the the libertarians and we re coming at it from a different perspective we re saying let s make them the same right
1
SPEAKER_02
Let s use digital currencies to make that happen.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so that s what I mean, you know, to come back to your question.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s what I mean by I think the YC model is dead around this particular technology and why BitTensor Tau is approaching it in a different way.
1
SPEAKER_02
Maybe I can talk more about that as a bit abstract.
1
SPEAKER_02
But Sammy, any more questions?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, you answered it perfectly.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s a good point to transition to the regulation topic, because like you said, many people are realizing just how powerful AI is, especially after Chachi BT launched.
1
SPEAKER_00
and discussions have picked up really about whether or not, or I guess, to what extent AI should be regulated.
1
SPEAKER_00
What we re seeing are prominent figures, including Sam Altman himself, in addition to lawmakers, even the White House come out recently and call for increased oversight and control over AI.
1
SPEAKER_00
And really what their argument is, is that they believe that these powerful state-of-the-art models without the proper guardrails
1
SPEAKER_00
pose a danger to society.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s almost as if they re kind of AI doomers.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I would be curious in hearing how you would respond to that argument.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t think it s an inauthentic fear.
1
SPEAKER_02
I do think that there s a lot of unknowns that we re dealing with here.
1
SPEAKER_02
It doesn t mean that we should decelerate, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
I m not saying we should stop.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I also don t think that we should give the problem to regulators, because I don t think that they really know what they re doing well enough.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I think Sam Altman s in this really weird position, because he s created this company that has all this power for the time being, and now he s
1
SPEAKER_02
looking for ways of situating that company so that it doesn t run away from him, so it doesn t run away from humanity, so that it does a good thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I think he s authentic.
1
SPEAKER_02
I really do think that he wants to do a good job.
1
SPEAKER_02
And he s going, OK, well, why don t we give this problem to the regulators on one side?
1
SPEAKER_02
And then he s also thinking, why don t we give it to, well, we ll try to democratize.
1
SPEAKER_02
There s like an open AI push to democratize
2
SPEAKER_01
the ownership of OpenAI.
2
SPEAKER_01
And he s come to this point, and I think he s looking for the solution.
2
SPEAKER_01
He doesn t have it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s really funny, because I want to call up Sam again.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve talked to him before and be like, hey, look, I told you, we need to tokenize it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And look, we ve been doing that.
2
SPEAKER_01
We created the system where the ownership is nested into a decentralized network.
2
SPEAKER_01
But in Balaji s book, Networks Day, he talks about
2
SPEAKER_01
The Leviathan, you know this concept, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like the Levi thing is the power against which we decide to do right or wrong because of the power, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
It used to be God, and then it was the state.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think that Sam Altman is still like that Web 2 or whatever you could call it, like Leviathan 2.0.
2
SPEAKER_01
Let s use the state to regulate it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, that will be the solution.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think that we re truly, BitTensor is like Web 3 or Leviathan 3.0.
2
SPEAKER_01
We ll nest the power into a network.
2
SPEAKER_01
and and that the network will control the technology and and implicit in the fact that it s decentralized and People can you know exert their their preferences over it that will be the control structure for this new God thing that we re creating and I ll give I ll tell a story so we we had a
2
SPEAKER_01
we had an issue in BitTensor where basically someone was trying to use it to generate pornography.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is one of the things, this is like low-hanging fruit for regulation.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s the first thing that always happens with every technology.
2
SPEAKER_01
100% of it was pornography.
2
SPEAKER_01
So somebody came in and said, okay, we re gonna try to use this to generate pornography.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if we were a Web 2.0 company, we would just not let that happen, or it would have been regulated upon us to not let that happen by
2
SPEAKER_01
the leviathan that is the government.
2
SPEAKER_01
But we built a network instead where it s the preferences of a whole set of people that have contributed to the network that can then determine what it s allowed to do.
2
SPEAKER_01
We organized, we voted, and kicked it out of the network.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it took a little bit of time.
2
SPEAKER_01
So there was a moment when it was producing pornography.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that was a little bit risky.
2
SPEAKER_01
But we were able to organize ourselves according to the technological principles that we d started with and made that happen.
2
SPEAKER_01
So the system regulated itself.
2
SPEAKER_01
So there is regulation.
2
SPEAKER_01
And people have made this mistake before when thinking about Tau.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like, is it censorship resistant?
2
SPEAKER_01
In totality, what does that even really mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
In a way, everything is censorship.
2
SPEAKER_01
You can censor anything.
2
SPEAKER_01
You can censor Bitcoin.
2
SPEAKER_01
If we blow up all of the miners, you can censor.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it s just really hard to do.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s harder to do in BitTensor.
2
SPEAKER_01
But we can actually regulate it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the mechanism
2
SPEAKER_01
at its very core is a way of defining the preferences of the people that are participants that have stake in the system.
2
SPEAKER_01
So we can have preferences and we can regulate it.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s what we re doing.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re regulating it, but we re just regulating it in a decentralized way.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re not regulating it through the Leviathan of the state, which I think a lot of people are unhappy with.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that s my answer.
2
SPEAKER_01
of what I think about regulation.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m actually sort of pro-regulation in a sense.
2
SPEAKER_01
We want to build the right mechanisms to do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And we think the best way to do that is one where you can come in and regulate, you can have a say, you can participate, you can come to own a part instead of throwing it off to regulators.
2
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, the way you just described BitTensor is it s an alternative to the prevailing top-down approach of regulation and AI development.
2
SPEAKER_00
Is that correct?
2
SPEAKER_00
Where, you know, the community- Yes, it s definitely, it s bottom-up regulation.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, and I think this is- It s bottom-up regulation.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think this would be a great point to just have you kind of clearly describe what BitTensor is for somebody listening that may not know.
2
SPEAKER_00
So what s its vision?
2
SPEAKER_00
What are the objectives?
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, the original vision, I mean, it s still a vision today, but where we started with was let s take the power of Bitcoin style mining, which has created the largest supercomputer in the world, this new type of computation, which is incentive based.
2
SPEAKER_01
Bitcoin miners just do the work because that s what is most efficient from a market perspective for them to do.
2
SPEAKER_01
They innovate and this creates this type of computer which doesn t exist anywhere and is not defined in any way.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s abstracted by a market.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s hyper powerful.
2
SPEAKER_01
So we re like, okay, great.
2
SPEAKER_01
Why don t we use that same type of computer to work on artificial intelligence?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because this is the computational stack.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is an incredibly powerful, important problem, but it s also an incredibly computationally intensive one.
2
SPEAKER_01
So why don t we take that same computational stack and apply it to Bitcoin?
2
SPEAKER_01
And what we did is we had to invent a type of mining validation in order to do that.
2
SPEAKER_01
So in Bitcoin, it s really easy to validate transactions because it s true or false.
2
SPEAKER_01
But when it comes to trying to validate intelligence or machine learning work that s being done, often cases, it s probabilistic, it s random, it s high dimensional.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so we needed to invent a validation mechanism
2
SPEAKER_01
that worked in that arena, you could say, and then we applied it towards creating intelligence.
2
SPEAKER_01
How can we incentivize the production of
2
SPEAKER_01
machine intelligence.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that s where BitTensor is today.
2
SPEAKER_01
We have this incredible validation system, which is very malleable.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then we apply it to all the different problems that are required for creating a decentralized machine intelligence company.
2
SPEAKER_01
So we do a whole bunch of different things.
2
SPEAKER_01
We scrape data off the internet using incentives.
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We store data based on incentives.
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We re like a Filecoin.
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We inference machine learning models.
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That s a big thing, both images and audio and doing text.
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That s also an extreme computational problem that requires incentivization.
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And then we also are beginning to do distributed federated style training.
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and all within the roof of, you know, this sort of like AI collective that works on producing, you know, inherently open and open-owned intelligence company or collective, whatever you want to call it.
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Like open AI split upside down, turned inside out, and you can enter.
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For a lot of people, that s really compelling.
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That s really interesting because
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The alternative is it s a really small company, OpenAI.
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It s closed funded.
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You didn t get an option to own it.
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there s this separation between all of us and this superpower, whereas BitTensor is much more permeable.
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You can come in from the inside and help us build this gargantuan technology, and anybody can.
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So if you learn how to work with this incentive mechanism, you can run experiments, computational experiments, like you can run a federated learning
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training run and have people come in and bring the compute to you that you would never be able to get unless you were a super company, right?
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Unless you were Google or unless you were OpenAI, you would never be able to access, you would never be able to co-locate that much amount of compute.
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But with BitTensor, somebody that s really intelligent and it s a meritocracy can come in and really use the entire machine for themselves.
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They can both define what we really mean by what we re trying to create, because it s open for everybody to own, and they can leverage the entire technology.
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I think that s a good zero to one on BitTensor.
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And I think one of the advantages as well is that you don t have a centralized organization that can come in and intentionally restrict the capabilities or influence of these AI models, right?
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And we re actually starting to see that a little bit with open AI, we re starting to see some of these AI labs come out and self regulate introduce these audits, but there s also some theories out there that these AI labs are actually intentionally nerfing their models, who knows if that s like a conspiracy or not.
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Do you think that if we continue to see these safety measures implemented into these centralized AI networks, whether it s self-regulation or government-level or state-level regulation, that this could drive the adoption of decentralized AI networks such as BitTensor?
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Yeah, there s like a lot of angles that that make us very valuable like there s the AI gets closed source and you can access it, then an open source one is obviously very valuable.
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There s a situation where it s regulated out of existence and then the fact that we re decentralized is.
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is really important.
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There is a situation where the AI is open, and they get all the value, and they run away, and we get like a sort of Elysium dystopia.
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And again, that s now the fact that we re open ownership is really important.
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There s so many potential runaway scenarios with AI, and it s basically impossible to know which one will happen, or if any.
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Maybe it ll just be completely boring.
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And I hope not.
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That would suck.
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But yeah, yeah, no, but go on, Sam.
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Before we continue to dive deeper into BitTensor, I want to zoom back out a little bit and just get your thoughts on what we re seeing in the open source AI space right now.
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So it s pretty clear that there are some major changes that have happened over the past decade.
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So traditionally, a lot of the AI research was done within academia, right, where all of this research was open sourced.
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Today, that s not necessarily what s happening.
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We re seeing a lot of the development taking place within the AI labs of these large technology companies, and they re not releasing some of that crucial information or the models.
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They re kind of keeping it all private.
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SPEAKER_00
One notable exception has been Meta, right?
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They ve kind of broken from the norm and they ve been open sourcing a series of models called Llama.
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I saw this tweet also from Yan Lacoon.
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He s the chief AI scientist at Meta.
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He was saying how he believes that open source AI will actually soon become unbeatable.
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And so this just has got me thinking, what does the future look like for these AI labs if this actually plays out?
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And maybe, I guess, a better question to just ask you is, do you agree with Yan?
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I don t.
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I think it s commendable what he s doing.
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But I do think that it s effectively a marketing ploy from Facebook.
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And we re at the, it s like the last dish effort of open source AI.
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And everyone wants it to be true, right?
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Everyone wants to believe that the open source AI will compete with the centralized alternatives.
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And Ilyas Oskar was on stage a couple months ago, and he was like, no, no, no, we re pretty sure that centralized AI is gonna just be always a couple steps ahead of the open source.
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And it s not to,
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degrade in any sense the intelligence of the people from inside of the open source community.
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And also the truth to the fact that when you build open source code you get the most number of collaborators and you get the most number of ideas and that pushes
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things forward at a faster rate in terms of innovation.
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And I think that s definitely what we ve seen.
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But what we ve also seen, and the reason why all these AI labs are closing up, is that the problem has become increasingly, increasingly more of a computational one.
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It s not just really intelligent ideas and ways of contributing to code and finding out a better loss function.
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A lot of intelligence is just raw trial and error, and that is so expensive that there needs to be some form of monetization
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in the loop in order to facilitate it.
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This is not like Linux, right?
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So Linux, it was like, OK, a bunch of contributors that are really intelligent literally have the capital, the intelligence capital to write a better operating system than Microsoft.
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In this, for this particular problem, you don t just need intellectual capital, you need physical hardware capital.
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And there s, unless there s a way for us to combine that capital together,
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in order to organize it in such a way that it can compete with the centralized alternatives, we can t run the training jobs that can build models that are going to be as intelligent as GPT-4.
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GPT-4 is a trillion parameter model.
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and it s probably cost ten million dollars or more to train and there s no open source community that s not funded that can do that.
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And there isn t, you know, why would you fund an open source community unless you re doing it out of the goodness of your heart, which is what Meta is doing and super commendable, right, for them to do this.
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But it s effectively a marketing ploy because they want to hire more machine engineers to come and work for their centralized alternative.
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AI companies.
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And I think that we saw this for a really long time in the AI world.
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We were like, okay, no, it s all happening in academia and all of the AI companies, the DeepMinds and Googles and stuff like that, they would throw things out to the open source community because they wanted to, you know, raise a flag and say, hey, we re doing the best AI work.
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You should come work for us.
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But now the race has become
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Like it s gone into a different gear, so to speak, and it s a much more valuable problem is so much more money involved than there was a little while ago.
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There s OpenAI really opened this new business model where we re going to have the AI internal and then we re going to sell you subscriptions.
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That was never the business model.
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It was always like, hey, we have this AI problem that works inside of Google.
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We want you to come and work on it.
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And then we re going to give
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Now we re giving the AI directly to people, right?
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SPEAKER_01
So there s this huge monetization, like a reason to close source AI, and that has allowed them to expand in terms of the computational power in these internal companies, just out of the reach of open source.
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SPEAKER_01
So it s commendable, but it s a sad reality that Yan is actually wrong.
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And I wish he wasn t.
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We do need some way of mixing the
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of mixing the monetization with the open contribution to blend the two.
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Let s get the open source qualities, but let s also get the monetization incentivization qualities that the corporates have down pat.
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They know how to go to investors and say, we re going to withhold this and make them pay, and we re going to give you
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a portion of that increased revenue.
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And the open source community can t really do that.
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So we need to find a way of melding those two so that we can inject the right capital into something that s open source that we can compete.
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And that s the road down the center that
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BitTensor is trying to be.
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We re not a centralized corporation, right?
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We re not a closed round funded VC, Wall Street, BlackRock, hundred billion dollar raise corporation.
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And we also have, you know, the open source qualities of anybody can contribute, but we have monetization and they don t.
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And so we re trying to, you know, solve that problem right there.
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And I think it s,
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the best of both worlds, it s a much harder problem though.
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We are building up from zero to one, and most of the other AI companies out there are starting at one and doing something similar to everyone else.
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SPEAKER_01
They re just copying open AI, but for video or for speech or something like that.
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We have to build a completely new stack.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so that s, to answer your question specifically,
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My heart bleeds for the open source community and they re really close to me in my heart and I feel like our role is to help them.
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So what are we doing right now?
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We re going to these engineers and we re saying, hey, come build your open source technology on top of BitTensor.
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play with incentives to collect a bunch of contributors and then make that thing valuable and monetize it through this network.
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SPEAKER_01
And you still get this quality that you can be this anarchist open source developer, and you also get to build technologies that are not just going to the man.
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SPEAKER_01
You re building them in the open in a way that people can see, and we can also compete with the big guys.
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SPEAKER_00
Beautifully said.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think at this point, many listeners are just itching to hear a little bit more about BitTensor itself.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I think this is a good point to kind of transition the conversation of that.
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SPEAKER_00
Let s talk about BitTensor revolution.
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So this was a recent network upgrade that really reshaped the network structure.
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And it turned BitTensor into a network of networks.
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And for anyone who s
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familiar with crypto, they ve heard of Helium, and BitTensor s architecture sort of is similar to Helium in the sense where Helium restructured to having an IoT network, a 5G network, and in the future they can add additional wireless networks.
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SPEAKER_00
With BitTensor now, you guys have adopted a subnet architecture where
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SPEAKER_00
each subnet could incentivize a different type of computation.
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SPEAKER_00
So could you kind of give the intention behind this upgrade and just expand a little bit on the subnet architecture?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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We invented a language of mining digital commodities that was really, really, really powerful.
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And
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We discovered that, hey, we invented this great thing, but we re not the best people in the world.
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We should let other people write with this language to create digital commodity systems.
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And we should connect them all together in one network so that each of them can interact with the other without having to go through like a Uniswap to change tokens kind of thing.
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So we had focused for the first
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year and a half on perfecting and learning how to speak this language of incentive, because that s really what we re doing.
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It s a new type of programming language, where instead of telling the computer what to do, which is classic computer science, right?
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SPEAKER_01
Okay, you know, if x is less than one, go here, right?
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SPEAKER_01
It s more like if X is less than one, and where X is the return from the miner, increase incentive by one.
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And then that turns into, it s like we re flowing an energy back into this network, and then it grows out the network.
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And so in this way, we really are working with a new type of language that s raw incentive-based language.
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And we just discovered that we should let other people play with this language and create value inside of our network.
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So I ve been calling it sort of BitTensor revolution or like our Ethereum moment because we went from being like an L1 like Bitcoin to more of like an L1 like Ethereum that allows for L2s.
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And
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And so what we ve seen is this Cambrian explosion of different experimentation on top of BitTensor.
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And that s really, like, all throughout this journey, I would say intellectually, the thing I ve discovered is almost like a Socratic wisdom.
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It s like, you know, I m more wise the more I know that I don t know anything.
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And in similar part, like the more wise I am, the more I know that I m not actually that intelligent and the real geniuses are out there that are going to do a lot better.
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SPEAKER_01
So let s enable them.
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Like let them write this language.
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SPEAKER_01
I m not the expert.
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Maybe they can come up with a better strategy and then that s what actually happens.
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So we ve seen this explosion of different people building tooling, different digital commodity markets.
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We call it digital commodity markets.
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where they extract some resource, whether it s storage, they scrape data, they train models, they predict the price of Bitcoin.
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All of these things can be crafted in the same structure.
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Hey, I m not going to write the computer that predicts the stock market.
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I m just going to reward the eventual computer
4
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that can predict the stock market for predicting the stock market.
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And then it just goes and creates itself.
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SPEAKER_01
How freaking amazing is that?
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SPEAKER_01
As a machine learning engineer, I think it s a little bit like when we switched in the early 2000s.
4
SPEAKER_01
We went from, oh, let s program into the machine what an angle is for an L, right?
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, it s like when the angle is sort of like this.
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SPEAKER_01
And then we were like, no, no, no, no.
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Let s let the computer learn what an L looks like.
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SPEAKER_01
We re just going to define an objective function, and then the computer is going to go out and adapt itself to the objective function so that it maximizes or minimizes its loss on the test set.
4
SPEAKER_01
similar idea with working with incentives, but you re almost one level higher, right?
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SPEAKER_01
We re going to define the objective function, which is written in the language of value and incentive, and then we re going to let the people go out and solve the problem.
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SPEAKER_01
We re not going to define exactly what we want.
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SPEAKER_01
We re just going to, well, we are going to define what we want, but we re not going to define how we get it.
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SPEAKER_01
So that s this computer that we invented, and so Bit2Revolution was the first time we opened up
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the door and said, hey, come in, people can build their own commodity markets.
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And then on top of that, we have a speculation market where these mechanisms actually get selected by the community for the value that they add.
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SPEAKER_01
A little bit like everyone in BitTensor becomes a VC for the different commodity systems in the network.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
And you hinted at this a little bit, but essentially somebody, somebody could build a storage subnet or a data procurement subnet.
4
SPEAKER_00
Could you just briefly- It has.
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SPEAKER_00
And they have.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay.
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SPEAKER_00
Wow.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, on that point, could you talk about what subnets currently exist and maybe some that you re excited about?
4
SPEAKER_01
This is a bit of a weird one, because most people won t understand the value of it.
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SPEAKER_01
But we have a MapReduce subnet coming out onto BitTensor.
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SPEAKER_01
And that doesn t sound very sexy.
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SPEAKER_01
But what it does is it solves this very important problem for
4
SPEAKER_01
working with distributed decentralized training.
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SPEAKER_01
And the MapReduce subnet, what it does is it uses the bandwidth of a whole set of peers to shuttle information from A to B. And because on the internet, when you re doing really, really high bandwidth computation, like let s say we re training a trillion parameter machine learning model, that s the bottleneck, is just getting the machine learning model over to the other side.
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SPEAKER_01
And so we can structure that problem as an incentive mechanism.
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SPEAKER_01
If I send this file through this network and then I get the outputs on the other side, I want to see who did that quicker.
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SPEAKER_01
Who could take more bandwidth?
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And we re going to reward them for opening up that bandwidth higher and higher.
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SPEAKER_01
And so we can force just that really small, it s almost like a unit of computation, the ability to just get A to B and then maybe B back to A again.
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we can write that as incentive.
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SPEAKER_01
And so I m really excited about this one because it enables, it facilitates the ability for us to do the MapReduce, which is valuable in federated learning.
4
SPEAKER_01
So when you re training large scale machine learning models, you need to send out the model, you need the miners or the workers to produce updates, and then you need to co-locate those updates back to the parameter server effectively.
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SPEAKER_01
That is super high bandwidth.
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SPEAKER_01
So that middle layer provides this service and we can drive it to maximize the amount of bandwidth and the speed at which we can send things over the wire.
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SPEAKER_01
So that s just an example of something that I think that is a really creative use of incentive that people have not thought about.
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SPEAKER_01
Like that doesn t exist really anywhere in the cryptocurrency ecosystem on CoinMarketCap as far as I know.
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SPEAKER_01
But we can write that.
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SPEAKER_01
We have a language for writing that specific problem and creating this new digital commodity that
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SPEAKER_01
you know, is very bespoke and specific to another problem that we re working in the ecosystem.
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SPEAKER_01
So we re building up these hierarchical problems.
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SPEAKER_01
And then
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SPEAKER_01
Another thing that s really cool is getting really high quality
5
SPEAKER_01
real-time data scraped from the internet and then embedding that information and making it available to a machine learning model, that s the scraping subnet.
5
SPEAKER_01
The scraping subnet is actually doing that.
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SPEAKER_01
It s going and getting Twitter data and syncing it into decentralized storage.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, it will be.
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SPEAKER_01
I think right now it s not.
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SPEAKER_01
But that can then be the inputs to a variety of other problems in the network, including training really high-quality, you know,
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SPEAKER_01
machine learning models that have real time data.
5
SPEAKER_01
So those are two that I m really excited about.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s a whole variety.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s the storage.
5
SPEAKER_01
We have a price prediction, Bitcoin that s growing.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of like a new Mirai.
5
SPEAKER_01
We have the subnet 1 and 11, which are just doing inferences.
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SPEAKER_01
So it s like a chat GPT front end that improves via incentive.
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SPEAKER_01
We re crafting that.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then there is a machine translation subnet currently.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is all within the first week and a half or so, two weeks.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, no, that s fantastic.
5
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I think we ve covered so much already.
5
SPEAKER_02
AI, regulation, BitTensor.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think we ve got one or two more questions for you.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think the first one is around Deepin.
5
SPEAKER_02
So this emerging vertical within crypto decentralized physical infrastructure networks was kind of kicked off in 2019 by Helium.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think the exact definition of it is still a bit up in the air.
5
SPEAKER_02
I know BitTensor has physical hardware in the real world, but obviously it s providing a digital commodity, digital service, so it s probably kind of on the border.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think their core deep ends are really aggregating this latent capacity for the provision of a service or a good that increases the number of suppliers in the network, decreases the oligopolistic effects of only having a few providers there.
5
SPEAKER_02
So it should decrease cost to the end consumer, create some net new use cases.
5
SPEAKER_02
With that framing in mind, how do you see the global market for compute power?
5
SPEAKER_02
Is it very disaggregated and fragmented?
5
SPEAKER_02
Is it a Pareto principle of 80% of the compute is controlled by 20% of the companies or individuals?
5
SPEAKER_02
Or how do you see it really as it stands today?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, the GPU rich, as they say.
5
SPEAKER_01
No, I think that the GPU market is pretty saturated.
5
SPEAKER_01
And people have asked me, well, what type of efficiency are you going to possibly get in that market if it s already super efficient?
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like they come right out of the factory and go straight to OpenAI or Tesla s supercomputer that they re building.
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SPEAKER_01
So is there even anything to soak up?
5
SPEAKER_01
Is there any efficiency?
5
SPEAKER_01
I think that there still is.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think that there still is a lot.
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SPEAKER_01
I have some GPUs at home that are not churning, but they could be churning.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think there s like a swath, an ocean of GPU power out there that is not being used.
5
SPEAKER_01
But that s not really the huge win.
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SPEAKER_01
The win is actually reutilizing the GPU power that s not being used properly to be used properly.
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SPEAKER_01
Like there s a whole bunch of compute out there that s not being used, sure.
5
SPEAKER_01
But then there s all the compute that is just not being properly monetized and is working on the wrong thing, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
You had a data center in 2012 and you were doing folding at home, but you should have been mining Bitcoin, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
Like potentially that s, or it was sitting and working on some problem that was irrelevant to the future.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think that
5
SPEAKER_01
That s really what we re trying to do, is we re trying to use markets to properly allocate the right resources to the right jobs.
5
SPEAKER_01
In BitTensor, we have this market for the markets themselves.
5
SPEAKER_01
So that s very interesting.
5
SPEAKER_01
We re using market dynamics to actually select which mechanisms are valuable.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think that can help with that problem.
5
SPEAKER_01
But then I would say the last point is, in BitTensor, we don t measure GPUs.
5
SPEAKER_01
we actually measure, depending on how the system is run, we measure the intelligence produced by the GPUs.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that s a different problem.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because if the problem is more abstract,
5
SPEAKER_01
Then people can find out all sorts of different ways of solving it that don t just require GPU power maybe you can actually do these inferences on CPUs.
5
SPEAKER_01
So if we made a market for GPUs that s not actually the right thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
We wanted to write make a market for intelligence, you know, per second.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so the market goes and finds a solution.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I think that if we can measure the right things, then we can manage them.
5
SPEAKER_01
And BitTensor s ask or pitch, you could say, is that we can be very precise about the thing that we re asking the network to do.
5
SPEAKER_01
Is it bandwidth?
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, do we need to go and validate that you re running one of our nodes?
5
SPEAKER_01
Is that really the most optimal way for us to get the thing that we want?
5
SPEAKER_01
And in the case of some of these Deepin examples, do we really want you to run our software?
5
SPEAKER_01
Or do we just want to write the incentives of what we wanted our software to do, and then you go write your own software?
5
SPEAKER_01
That s actually way more powerful.
5
SPEAKER_01
So Deepin s great.
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SPEAKER_01
It s a really interesting framework.
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SPEAKER_01
And I d say we re certainly aligned with a lot of the philosophies in there.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, Jake, it s been an absolute pleasure having you on here.
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SPEAKER_00
It s obviously very clear that you re a differentiated thinker with super creative ideas.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe just the last thing to end this on, you know, we re living in unprecedented times.
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SPEAKER_00
There s news about aliens, the world falling apart, things every single day.
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SPEAKER_00
Um, maybe one question ended on here.
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SPEAKER_00
What s your most non consensus take that you think people out there would just be mind blown by?
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SPEAKER_01
I think we re,
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SPEAKER_01
I think that we re actually at the beginning of a golden age.
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SPEAKER_01
And we re about to enter a complete like we re coming out of the dark ages rather than entering them.
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SPEAKER_01
I think we re entering a new moral universe, a new moral world, one where it s not so unipolar, and I think that s good.
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SPEAKER_01
I think we re going to rediscover new cultures through decentralization.
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SPEAKER_01
I think we re going to free ourselves up and live happier lives.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t think the world s falling apart.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t think that we re going to end in ruin.
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SPEAKER_01
I think it s going to change for the better.
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SPEAKER_01
And I think that that s a bit weird.
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SPEAKER_01
A lot of people are really upset and think the world s going to fall apart.
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SPEAKER_01
But I m actually super confident that we ve birthed something of almost religious significance.
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SPEAKER_01
You know, Bitcoin has opened up a golden era for us to reorganize ourselves as humans into much more equitable and fair
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SPEAKER_01
and value creating ways.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
That s awesome.
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SPEAKER_00
That s awesome, man.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, look, I think we are perennial optimists over here.
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SPEAKER_00
And by the same token, super excited about everything you re doing.
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SPEAKER_00
Do you want to maybe just tell our audience where they can find you on Twitter, on socials, if they re trying to learn more about the project?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, please follow me on Twitter.
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SPEAKER_01
I m cons4born.
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SPEAKER_01
And then join our Discord community, become our board of directors.
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SPEAKER_01
That s the power of cryptocurrencies and open ownership systems.
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SPEAKER_01
You can just be my boss.
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SPEAKER_01
So if you want to be my boss, I m looking for a boss.
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SPEAKER_00
That s awesome.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, thanks so much for being on and it s been another awesome episode here.