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And that s why it s so hard for us in the SEAL teams when one of us dies.
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And since we ve had so many die, we close ranks, I guess is the best way to say it.
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And we deal with it together.
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You gotta understand, I m not alone.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re talking with former Navy SEALs Marcus Luttrell and David Rutt-Rutherford.
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We re going to talk about how civilians can develop mental toughness and how someone without military training can cultivate and maintain self-discipline to do the difficult things necessary to reach their goals and
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what mental practices Navy SEALs use to block out distraction and physical pain to stay focused on the goals at hand.
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And of course, I had to ask, do SEALs suffer as well from imposter syndrome?
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We re so glad to have you with us today here at AOC.
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So enjoy this episode with Marcus Littrell and David Rutherford.
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Oh, and by the way, if you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the AOC toolbox where we discuss things like body language and nonverbal communication, persuasion, networking, negotiation, mentorship, and everything else we teach here at the Art of Charm.
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In the US, you can text charmed.
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to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
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Everywhere else, oh, and the USA, what am I talking about here?
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Everywhere, you can go to theartofcharm.com and also at theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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You can find the full show notes for this and all previous episodes.
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Alright, here are Marcus Luttrell and Rutt.
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So it s funny, we prepped for this so long ago.
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I mean, a really, really long time ago.
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Probably a year ago.
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We watched a lot of the interviews that you did, Marcus, with a lot of journalists, and I thought these were interesting because it seemed like none of them really even tried to put themselves in your shoes at all.
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I wrote down in my notes, let s be the guys that don t screw up an interview with Marcus Luttrell, right?
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Because I watched probably 20 interviews with you, the one where you re on stage with your dogs there, and that was like the best one, and I feel like you still secretly just wanted to get up and leave in the middle.
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Because they re either unprepared, or they re political, or they put their foot in their mouth in the most awkward way possible, so I really wanted to do this right.
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No, no.
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Hey guys, throughout the transitions in our, in our lives, I mean, I m a husband and a father and once I turn, yeah, podcaster is what I do for a living.
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So now once I turned 40, I mean, I don t have any problem with anything I ever did in my life.
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Like I don t have PTSD.
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I can talk about anything.
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I m real open about my life s been public for a long time now.
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So I can talk about anything you guys want to talk about.
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And like I said, Rut and I have been together through most of it.
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So well, good, feel free to fire whatever you want.
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I mean, if there don t,
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Don t be afraid to ask any questions.
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Don t think you re going to insult me.
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I mean, if you do, you know, I ll let you know.
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Yeah, let me know.
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Find you guys.
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He will come.
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Yeah, right.
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Guys and kill you.
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You know what?
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If that s what happens, at least it ll make the news.
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No it won t.
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Anything for the story!
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No it won t.
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Oh yeah, you re right.
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No, it ll just look like natural causes.
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He was so young.
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What happened?
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Must have been the stress of the job.
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He fell off his own roof twice.
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How do you wreck your car twice?
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It s so mysterious.
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Anyway, we re going to drop this investigation.
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We have better things to attend to.
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Marcus and Dave, should I call you Rutt?
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I feel like, do I not get to call you Rutt or is that what everyone calls you?
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You know what, you can call me Rutt.
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So Rutt is totally cool.
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Looking back at the lone survivor phenomenon, just to give people context of your background, tell us briefly what happened.
0
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Again, I don t want to go too far down that rabbit hole, Marcus, but if you can give us a brief rundown of the story just so people recognize kind of the extreme experience and then we can deconstruct what happened thereafter and what s happening now.
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Sure, absolutely.
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2005, I was in SEAL teams, deployed to Afghanistan on a reconnaissance, in a reconnaissance platoon.
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We infilled to capture, kill a high-value target, and then we got overrun by a small militia.
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Then a gunfight ensued, about three hours went by, and then my reconnaissance team consisted of about four men.
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After about three hours, they were all dead.
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And then after that, let s see, crawled for another day, right?
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Yeah, crawled through the night.
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You had to crawl
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Pretty far.
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Pretty far.
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And then seven miles.
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Yeah.
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With a few broken bones.
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I was pretty busted up.
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No tongue.
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Yeah.
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And I got rescued by a Pashtun village.
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And then for the next four and a half days, I was with the Taliban and with the village.
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And then U.S.
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military came in and rescued me.
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And then after that, let s see, in the hospital for a while.
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Three months?
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Yeah.
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Surgeries?
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Yeah, had some surgeries, got back together, went back into Iraq in 06, in 07.
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For the Battle of Ramadi.
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He likes Jordan.
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One of the things he does because of his, you know, being so humble is he glosses over these
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incredible accomplishments.
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We re gonna get into that.
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Let me sort of back up here.
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Your team went out.
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You had a decision where you had to essentially decide whether or not to execute some goat herders that happened upon your reconnaissance patrol, correct?
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Correct.
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And you did not do that because they were just civilians.
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However, those people alerted the Taliban, which then quickly overran the position that you guys were in, and you were, as the movie title implies, the lone survivor.
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of this, and you said you crawled seven miles through the night.
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Can you tell us, I mean, it s exactly what it sounds like from my research, but tell us exactly what s going on there, because yes, you re glossing over, as Rhett says, some of the details because of humility, but we wanna get the high-performance version of this and figure out how the hell you were even able to do that.
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Sure, so at the end of the gunfight, Matt Axson and myself were separated by an RPG blast and it knocked us out again.
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I was kind of one of the difficult parts about the mission was, uh, was how many times we kept getting knocked out.
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And when I came to, at the end of that, uh, accident, I d been separated and everybody was dead and I was, I was paralyzed from the waist down and been shot at frag from head to toe kind of deal broken back.
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I mean, I was pretty busted up, man.
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My face was smashed in, but anyways, I was almost naked.
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I mean, all my uniform, my kit, my med gear, GPS compass.
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I mean, I had my rifle left, had one mag left.
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And what I did was I just started crawling.
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I crawled into this crevice and I buried myself.
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And I lay there for a while, well, until the sun went down and then I uncovered myself and I started crawling through the night and, uh, I knocked myself out a couple more times and the sun came up and I was trying to work my way down this Hill.
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And I guess they found me that morning or if they d been following, I don t know that I got, uh, walked on by, uh, HKT Hunter killer team.
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And I got shot in the back.
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Anyways, I rolled down this hill.
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I came to, there was two guys shooting at me and one guy was chasing me hilltop for hilltop.
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So I just rolled over and started crawling and I would throw myself and roll down the backside of these hills kind of deal.
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And, uh, I turned around on one of them and then that one guy walked right into me and I shot him in the face.
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And then the other two guys, their high ground turned into my level ground.
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It s kind of hard to explain.
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We were on the side of a mountain, but, uh, I had a frag left and I dumped it on him.
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And then this is when I was busted up real bad.
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I couldn t, uh,
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really feel anything from my chest down.
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So I grabbed a rock and I drew a line in front of me.
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So I would crawl to this line and I d fall down a hill.
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I d crawl up another hill.
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I just kept crawling.
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I did it for seven miles.
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And I found a waterfall.
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Believe it or not, check this out.
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I don t know how I managed to do this, but I got to the top of the waterfall, and I tried to slide down into the river, and I took off, man.
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I flipped into the river and knocked myself out again.
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My knees hit me in the face this time.
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It s pretty gnarly, but most humans don t bend like that.
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Yeah.
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And I came to, I got two sips out of that waterfall.
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I remember how cold it was, because it was coming off the mountain, and I remember it was being a good place to die.
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And I was sitting down, I got one more sip out of the waterfall, and that s when the village found me.
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When you re hiding in the crevice, are you thinking, I shouldn t move until nightfall, I know this because of my training, or are you just like, I m so tired, I need to rest here no matter what?
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No, nightfall.
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I mean, we d been overrun and everyone was dead.
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It s a tactic.
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Right.
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And then you drew a line in the sand with the rock just to give you a goal that you could accomplish.
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Crawl over the line, draw another line in the sand, ad nauseum for seven miles until you find this waterfall.
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Just think about how far that is.
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But when you re listening right now, if you re driving your morning commute, think about how many miles that is in your car and think about crawling that, right?
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Just to put in perspective, I mean, I would fall down the other side.
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I mean, seven miles on your feet is a lot longer than when you can roll down.
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I mean, so.
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I m not a badass, you know what I mean?
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I use gravity to my advantage.
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I think it s interesting that you re trying to cut your credit a little short by saying, no, no, I fell onto rocks a lot of the ways instead of crawling.
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It s not as cool as it sounds.
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I mean, that sounds worse.
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I didn t do anything that any other frog man would have done in my place.
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That s the thing.
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I did exactly what I was supposed to do.
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Uh, that s why I don t like taking a lot of credit for that because any guy could have done that in any point in time.
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And we, you know, we all came from the same mold and we, and the young guys, I, I can t, you know, you can t have guys coming in thinking that I could do something, another team that couldn t cause I,
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I can t really, and everybody who went through SEAL training with me and was in the teams with me, man knew I was, I was, I was good.
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I wasn t the greatest.
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I wasn t the worst man.
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I just good enough to be there.
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I understand.
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Well, what s interesting to me is because I, you know, I was with Marcus.
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He came through training when I was an instructor and right.
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So and and, you know, to a certain extent, he he s absolutely 100 percent accurate.
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Right.
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We we don t distinguish from one guy to the next.
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But one thing that Marcus will never say is that he did stand out.
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And I can tell you as being one of his instructors, he we you know, and the fact that he was a medic, I did push him harder than the other guys because he was a medic and he did live up to it all the time.
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So, you know, it s very difficult for my perspective.
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That s all I did.
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SPEAKER_01
I just met the standards that were put up.
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You met the standards.
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And then and then unfortunately, when the standard came to call on on Marcus that fateful day and in June of, you know, he performed at the highest level and he didn t die.
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He didn t quit.
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I used every skill that skill I d ever been taught.
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And this is the reason, look, you got to understand, I m because I m not in that special class where you can just learn anything, doing like I actually have to train.
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So I am.
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I m trained in everything that
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So is every other seal, but I, I mean, I got to train myself to learn it, to get good at it.
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So when it, when it did come time for all, when all of it fell apart, I mean, I know it, I knew everything I needed to know.
1
SPEAKER_00
You felt like you had to outwork or work hard to get it.
1
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t like I m naturally good at all this stuff, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, everybody has to work hard to get it.
1
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That s the problem with being a Navy seal.
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I mean, I.
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My hardest I gave was good enough to be there.
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It wasn t any better, any worse.
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Am I saying that?
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I don t even know.
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I never had to talk about this.
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Now you re spot on.
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You re crushing it.
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I mean, one of the things, Jordan, about, you know, the standards is that our standards are so high throughout the entirety of the training.
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And that s how we, you know, that s how we become what we become.
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That s how we re able to do the things we re able to do.
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The challenge is the operational environments sometimes go south, and in particular individuals in those situations, they do remarkable, extraordinary things.
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I mean, we got tons of guys.
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Y all just don t ever hear about them because there s no fallen angels.
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I mean, we don t have any of the helicopters getting shot down.
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So that s another thing that I keep in my head.
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You got to understand Red Wing.
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We got we we got beat.
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That s part.
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That s a loss.
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Like I was I m known in our community because I survived our greatest casualty, our loss.
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And it s I don t want to say embarrassing.
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It wasn t embarrassing in the teams.
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You know, it s just like, all right.
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I got to work extra hard because I got beat to get back into the club.
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And that s, that s the drive.
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And that s the, that s how we work.
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I mean, every one of them guys who has any of those situations, they, when they get into it, man, they get right back in the line and go, uh, anonymous.
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And that s what I, you know, I had to do till well, you know, the book.
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SPEAKER_00
When you guys get in these types of situations, what are you guys thinking?
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What is going through your head?
1
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Are you on autopilot because of training?
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SPEAKER_00
Are you thinking about your friends and family?
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SPEAKER_00
I assume there s not a lot of time feeling sorry for yourself because that s not very helpful, but there s gotta be a little bit of that, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
There has to be some massive mix of very powerful emotions happening whenever you get into situations like this.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t think so.
1
SPEAKER_02
I think it s, it s more about the first, uh, what you talk about.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s, you know, you re, you re the, the training becomes rote, right?
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SPEAKER_02
The training is.
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So we do the evolution to fail and then get beat and want to stay there for the next, for the next meeting and the next to fail again.
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And that s how they condition us.
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So when we go out on real targets, man, we go out expecting to take pain, expecting to get everything we got in the, in the aspect of there s a possibility might fail.
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Yeah, and when a lot of people watch this, like when I watched the movie and read the book, I felt really helpless, but I assume that while you re out there, you don t feel the same way because you summoned a lot of strength to survive this.
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And I think that s one of the reasons why we re doing what we re doing together now is because we believe that every individual ultimately has a component of pushing themselves beyond their limits.
1
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Look at the fact that you were kidnapped twice, which is a story, by the way, we want to hear on, you know, we want to hear that and how you got out of that and what kept you going.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I will do that on your show.
1
SPEAKER_00
We can definitely discuss the kidnapping stuff on your program if you want, because there s probably some similarities.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just don t think about it as like, I m this badass guy, because I think about it like you guys do, which is, wow, this did not go my way.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m just lucky to be here.
1
SPEAKER_01
All right.
1
SPEAKER_01
Here s the way I look at it.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s just because you haven t been, you didn t go to the same, kind of the same school we did.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I mean, it s a training thing.
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SPEAKER_01
You got to understand, you are very much capable.
1
SPEAKER_01
When I got snatched up, I mean, I had been trained.
1
SPEAKER_01
to handle everything.
1
SPEAKER_01
I, that, that s why, I mean, even on the outside, we re, we re trained to do this and we just practice until we, until we get good at it.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I mean, bro, from what I ve heard about you, man, I, he s got one of the biggest podcasts.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, you, you, like when you first started, did you ever imagine that you would have, you know, 550 plus shows and 2 million listeners a month?
1
SPEAKER_02
No,
1
SPEAKER_02
You just don t imagine that you hope for it.
1
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But because of your the commitment and your willingness to sacrifice and other components and accept the pain of building something, you got to become the best at what you re doing right now, Jordan.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s the same mindset we do.
1
SPEAKER_02
We just apply different components of pain.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that s it.
1
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The levels of pain, because when we when it goes off, man, all the training, everything comes into me, man.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t I don t even think about myself.
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I m thinking about my boys and what they re doing.
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SPEAKER_01
And it s vice versa, because if I die, they re alive.
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SPEAKER_01
I m still alive.
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SPEAKER_01
That s the.
1
SPEAKER_01
kind of the mentality.
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And the reason you can t break us mentally is because you had to break every single one of us.
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SPEAKER_01
And that s how I think, man.
1
SPEAKER_01
The only way you re going to beat me mentally is if you ve got to break every single one who wears a Triton on their chest.
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SPEAKER_01
And you ain t getting that done.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right, right.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, this makes sense.
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SPEAKER_00
And looking back at the team mindset, I mean, even producer Jason here says, you know, part of the reason that we re successful, which is very, very true, is that there s always people behind you holding it up.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so you hold each other accountable and you make it happen.
1
SPEAKER_00
When you were out there, did you realize that people were looking for you or were you just like, man, I fricking hope that somebody knows I m still out here?
1
SPEAKER_00
Are you just, you know, as what s going through your head when you re in the posh and village, are you thinking it s just any day now or are you thinking crap?
1
SPEAKER_00
I wonder if they think I m gone and they re not going to come.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, I mean, I was using my radio beacon.
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SPEAKER_01
I was doing all my signaling.
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SPEAKER_01
I was writing and gaining intel from the villagers and then, uh, writing, you know, drawing maps out on my, well, we won t go there, but, uh, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And the preparation and what I knew they were coming to get me.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, no, you don t.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s not even how she, I mean, there s dudes back home coming to get me kind of deal.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right.
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SPEAKER_01
I didn t know about the helicopter getting shot down and all the guys dying.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, the Taliban had me.
1
SPEAKER_01
They told me that, but I didn t.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t.
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SPEAKER_01
You got to understand the mindset when you don t go in to lose.
1
SPEAKER_01
You can t tell me something negative.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s going to sway my attitude when we re going in.
1
SPEAKER_01
So this is the first time we had been whipped.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I was just going off of the my mindset was the never been whipped mindset.
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SPEAKER_01
So, I mean,
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And I ve been through hell week hell weeks five days.
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SPEAKER_01
So I knew I was good till then.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I was shot, you know, I was busted.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was getting real sick.
1
SPEAKER_01
But the only problem I, uh, I mean, I didn t think about my teammates being dead.
1
SPEAKER_01
I just thought about my rest of my team coming to get me because if you know anything about my career, I, you know, I can get myself into some pretty unique situations and I m not just, I mean, most seals can say that, but I mean, ask anybody some unique ones, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t know what it was, man.
1
SPEAKER_02
We just,
1
SPEAKER_02
One of the, one of the interesting Jordan is, is, and this is goes back to why I always throw in the, the humble statement with Marcus and where I believe is the, what, what, what does separate him from a lot of other guys in our community.
1
SPEAKER_02
And he, he doesn t ever want to admit it, but I m going to say it here because that s what I believe.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that s why I love the guys as much as I do.
1
SPEAKER_02
Is after this incident after he comes back and he understands it s you know It s the single greatest loss that we ve had at the time since world war ii in our in our in our unit But he has this desire this need to get healed Roger up and go back in a platoon to go to the most dangerous place on earth which was ramadi iraq in the battle for ramadi in 06
1
SPEAKER_02
That, in my mind, is the exceptional, what separates Marcus from Soap.
1
SPEAKER_00
So the SEAL code or this ethos is that, from the first day of BUDS, and again, this is from my research, I have no military experience, but it says something like, my loyalty to country and team is beyond reproach.
1
SPEAKER_00
I humbly serve as a guardian to my fellow Americans.
1
SPEAKER_00
I do not advertise the nature of my work, nor seek recognition for my actions.
1
SPEAKER_00
It seems like you didn t have much of a choice, but you got thrust into the limelight, which is a little bit,
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, contra to this.
1
SPEAKER_00
How do you feel about that?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because it seems like it would be a little uncomfortable at first knowing, like, look, I don t.
1
SPEAKER_00
I assume you didn t think, hey, this is going to make a great story.
1
SPEAKER_00
Can t wait to tell everybody.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s probably the furthest thing from your mind when all this is happening.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, no, no.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was in Ramadi when it came out.
1
SPEAKER_01
You understand this is wasn t my idea.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, this is this is my new mission.
1
SPEAKER_01
I that kind of deal.
2
SPEAKER_02
I, I asked the same question.
2
SPEAKER_02
He said like to the bosses above and I was like, what do you want me to do?
2
SPEAKER_02
And they were like, you re a Navy SEAL.
2
SPEAKER_02
We expect you to perform that kind of deal.
2
SPEAKER_02
So, I mean, I, and I was trained, I was trained to go on television and, and survive in the civilian world.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I got read up on what it, um, meant to be a, uh, you know, a writer and hell all the book is a debrief.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, that s just me telling a debrief.
2
SPEAKER_02
I, I talk like that.
2
SPEAKER_02
Um, so.
2
SPEAKER_02
I didn t really look at it as anything other than doing what I was told.
2
SPEAKER_03
Why did you take it upon yourself to personally travel across the U.S.
2
SPEAKER_03
and tell the families of your fallen brothers exactly how their sons died?
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, why was that important to you initially?
2
SPEAKER_02
I ll ask you this question.
2
SPEAKER_02
Who would you want to hear that from?
2
SPEAKER_02
They needed to hear that from me.
2
SPEAKER_02
So anything they heard from anybody else,
2
SPEAKER_03
It s a really old tradition in our unit as well.
2
SPEAKER_03
How did you manage that emotionally?
2
SPEAKER_03
Because that s a hurtful thing, I would imagine, for you every time that you do it.
2
SPEAKER_03
I have my teammates with me.
2
SPEAKER_03
On the travel?
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
Because it seems like it would just be really hard because these people are grieving for almost like the first time for real when they hear it from you, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
Before that, it s just like, I don t know, a letter that they get or something, I assume, or a bad phone call.
2
SPEAKER_02
So, yeah, right.
2
SPEAKER_02
So I was with the rest of my team and you got to understand how we are around each other.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s kind of hard to explain, but I don t, I don t feel like that.
2
SPEAKER_02
So that, and we had already buried, you know, not buried them, but we, we say our goodbyes differently.
2
SPEAKER_02
So once we go through our ritual and it s a, it s a kind of a warrior thing, then it s, they re, they re in the ground and our job is to push forward.
2
SPEAKER_02
So we think of them in their spirit and the best light where they re fighting with us and stuff like that.
2
SPEAKER_02
And, and, and that s it.
2
SPEAKER_02
Our community is real tight knit.
2
SPEAKER_02
So instead of our admin writing a letter, he sent me.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it doesn t get any more straight up than that.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, that s an honor.
2
SPEAKER_04
Well, I mean, you think about Marcus s ability to translate the pride that those men all fought with on that day.
2
SPEAKER_04
I mean, they fought like true warrior poets.
2
SPEAKER_04
And he was able to disseminate for that to the grieving families who are filled with doubt and wonderment and why and, you know, anxiety and anguish and grief and all these things.
2
SPEAKER_04
Marcus was able to instill that sense of pride that their sons died like the heroes that they are.
2
SPEAKER_02
Our entire community surrounded all those families.
2
SPEAKER_02
And basically what it was, I was picked to tell them what happened.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, even with the admirals and everybody standing there just because I was there and that s kind of how it works.
2
SPEAKER_03
So how do you not let traumatic events like that completely define you?
2
SPEAKER_03
Right, because a lot of times they re probably taking over your thoughts, but what would you say to the father or mother listening to this who somehow blames themselves for the death of a family member or something like that, which would seem to be a similar situation where a family member dies while you re there.
2
SPEAKER_03
How do you not let that define your life and move forward?
2
SPEAKER_02
Well, we had a saying in my family, you never let anything define you as a man.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, we were Navy SEALs, we re not anymore.
2
SPEAKER_02
That kind of deal was a time in our life.
2
SPEAKER_02
And then you have to understand everybody s realities.
2
SPEAKER_02
Look, I m about to take you down a rabbit s hole.
2
SPEAKER_02
Russ gonna have to step in on this one.
2
SPEAKER_02
I got you.
2
SPEAKER_02
Should we go?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, go.
2
SPEAKER_02
You ready?
2
SPEAKER_02
Go.
2
SPEAKER_02
All right.
2
SPEAKER_02
So everybody s reality is unique to them.
2
SPEAKER_02
They build it themselves to make it perfect.
2
SPEAKER_02
The people who can exist in other people s realities are the ones that succeed, correct?
2
SPEAKER_02
They can either exist or they can dominate in other realities.
2
SPEAKER_02
What we re trained from the very beginning, I mean, they rip everything we wear away from us, go in the training.
2
SPEAKER_02
Those, if you had those surrounded by men who think exactly like that, it s the only thought process.
2
SPEAKER_02
It creates the reality.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right.
2
SPEAKER_02
And people get on to us about watching a lot of movies.
2
SPEAKER_02
We actually watch the same movies over and over again, and it programs in our mind how to react in certain situations because I m seeing that situation unfold on in front of me in my eyes.
2
SPEAKER_02
It can unfold exactly like that in real life or similar to that.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I m already prepared for that kind of reaction and our ability to take pain.
2
SPEAKER_03
What kind of movies are you talking about?
2
SPEAKER_03
Like you have kind of almost like seal game film that you constantly go over to train?
2
SPEAKER_03
Or is this... What are these movies you re talking about?
2
SPEAKER_04
It s bigger than that.
2
SPEAKER_04
So like we will have a core of watching 300, right?
2
SPEAKER_04
About the Spartans.
2
SPEAKER_03
Band of Brothers.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, Band of Brothers.
2
SPEAKER_04
Oh, actual movies.
2
SPEAKER_03
Okay, like Hollywood movies.
2
SPEAKER_03
Got it.
2
SPEAKER_04
Like Hollywood movies that conjure up the culture that we live in reality.
2
SPEAKER_04
And so what we do is we create a higher level camaraderie through those movies.
2
SPEAKER_04
Because when you re not, like, everybody seems to think that when you go downrange, you re going out every single night.
2
SPEAKER_04
It s often, well, I guess in certain circumstances, certain times, certain deployments, they did it.
2
SPEAKER_04
But at the same- Just like every other war, right?
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
And in downtime, you re spending that time together bonding.
2
SPEAKER_04
And one of the ways we bond significantly is through the manifestation of our, our glory in those movies.
2
SPEAKER_04
Cause we re living it.
2
SPEAKER_04
I mean, we re watching these things that in history.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
We re watching fighting in Babylon and Afghanistan where Alexander got, I got whipped where Alexander did.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, that s kind of a source of pride for me.
2
SPEAKER_02
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_02
Me and my boys went in all those places and fought.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s, it s that warrior mentality kind of deal.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, we were talking about this, we get back from deployment, you get a month break, Dave Grossman gets in our head and sends us back over, good to go.
2
SPEAKER_02
Totally.
2
SPEAKER_02
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2
SPEAKER_03
When the movies came out about you, the books and the movies came out about you, did you feel a pressure to act a certain way?
2
SPEAKER_03
Like, oh, I ve got to be a little bit more heroic and friendly and smiley, or I better stay in good shape, because people are looking at me.
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, did you feel that external pressure to be someone else?
2
SPEAKER_02
I ve been asked that question before.
2
SPEAKER_02
And the way that the public knows me, it s not because I m an actor and then I had my last movie or something like that.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s my deeds in battle for everybody.
2
SPEAKER_02
Everyone knows about it.
2
SPEAKER_02
Every guy in the military gets in combat, man, they got a story like that.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it s just so happens so many people died and mine got told due to the nature of it.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I, I act like military bearing and I, I just like I normally do.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I screw up, you know, I, I fail in the open quite regularly because, and it s not that big of a deal to me.
2
SPEAKER_02
There s nothing I can do.
2
SPEAKER_02
And we were talking about this earlier, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
Like I, because I got put into the public later in life.
2
SPEAKER_02
You re not seeing me at a young age trying to build my reputation off of something that happened to me.
2
SPEAKER_02
You witnessed something that happened to me off a reputation I already had.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that, did I say that right?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so, I mean, I m a husband and a father.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I m an indoor cat, bro.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I work outside and all stuff like that.
2
SPEAKER_02
So it s transitions in life.
2
SPEAKER_02
You push past that.
2
SPEAKER_02
And every little bad moment in my life, I ve had a good one.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I ve had more good ones than bad.
2
SPEAKER_02
And especially after you get out of combat and you come back home and I can t let something like a two minute or a five minute or a two year, you know, how long we were over there, snapshot in my life, especially if I m back with my family.
2
SPEAKER_02
control the good times.
2
SPEAKER_02
So I mean, that s that that positive attitude and how I act and react is is completely already been taught to me.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s that s good because it sounds like what you re saying and I m
3
SPEAKER_00
I m not trying to put words in your mouth, so correct me if I m wrong.
3
SPEAKER_00
The thing that keeps you moving past traumatic experiences like this is realizing that you re not to be defined by the events themselves.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re at home now.
3
SPEAKER_00
You have a different life now.
3
SPEAKER_00
You don t have to constantly relive that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Did friends and people around you start treating you differently after the movie came out?
3
SPEAKER_00
I would imagine there d be some sort of natural consequence to that type of fame.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have the same friends I ve had since I was a boy.
3
SPEAKER_01
And not, I mean, I meet millions of people and they re all great, but are you talking about like who I hang out with?
3
SPEAKER_01
It s my, my teammate, teammates and my core group since I was a boy.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s another thing about being where I m at in my life.
3
SPEAKER_01
The going out and being in the public eye and the tabloids and all that stuff like that, you know, I m married.
3
SPEAKER_01
I, uh,
3
SPEAKER_01
He s a dad.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m a dad.
3
SPEAKER_01
He s a podcaster.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know what?
3
SPEAKER_01
If you really, now that I thought about it, yeah, now that I have kids, I mean, I, I, some, you know, I can t act like a fool sometimes when we do team guy stuff and, and, uh, and in the political spotlight now and both.
3
SPEAKER_01
So.
3
SPEAKER_02
Well, one of the interesting things that I thought, you know, I don t even want to explain it, man.
3
SPEAKER_02
And let me help you out is one of the things Jordan that, you know, I, I witnessed and you can imagine all of us being his, his brothers and his teammates going, man is, is how s he going to manage all this as it blows completely, you know, sideways, you know, when a movie gets in, is that successful or the phenomenon of his book and the story and why so many people love it.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know, and the pressure on him to to get near, you know, whatever that heroism is or the courage or the ability to survive in the most arduous situations known to man.
3
SPEAKER_02
Everybody wants to understand that.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so they want to they want to they want to him to tell them they want the secret of what he did.
3
SPEAKER_02
And his thing, you know, is, listen, I didn t, you know, I did what I was trained to do.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I m telling a story to help the memory of these, my teammates never die.
3
SPEAKER_02
And he did that and, and, and he s done it.
3
SPEAKER_02
And now he s, he s onto the next thing, which is to continue to influence people to develop their own never quit mindset.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m kind of a weirdo.
3
SPEAKER_01
And, uh, so I can get along with anybody.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I, I boil it down to this.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I, my whole life, I was little and my family, we have to learn how to defend ourselves and fight and stuff like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I mean, once you strip away all the white noise and I learned something about somebody and I just closed my eyes.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I can t, you know, if I m not standing in front of them and know everything about them, it s their experiences, right.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what they re capable of.
3
SPEAKER_01
And man, I, I just, I, I find it that fascinating and get along with just, just about anybody.
3
SPEAKER_01
So when I m in the, when I was hanging out with all the celebrities or the politicians, something like that, I don t.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not asking for autographs or anything.
3
SPEAKER_01
I just want to, I like hanging out with them because man, they re good at something.
3
SPEAKER_01
Did I say that right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
So they have an experience in something that I m not experienced in.
3
SPEAKER_01
And to go back to my friends, all the friends that I have since boyhood, they have a strength that covers down on a weakness I have.
3
SPEAKER_01
So when one of them dies, I m exposed.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s why it s so hard for us in the SEAL teams when, when one of us dies.
3
SPEAKER_01
And since we ve had so many die.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, we, we, we close ranks, I guess the best way to say it.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, I mean, I, uh, and, and we deal with it together.
3
SPEAKER_01
You got to say, I m not alone.
3
SPEAKER_01
I talk to my teammates regularly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Even the guys that I didn t meet while I served, I run into them.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then the people in Hollywood still check in on me, uh, in the media politics.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s kind of one deals.
3
SPEAKER_01
I go out, hang out with a while and, and then, um, just, Hey, just try to Hank be friends.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So a lot of political stuff is happening kind of around you as well.
3
SPEAKER_00
It seems like people are asking you all sorts of random political questions and it seems like a tough position to be in.
3
SPEAKER_00
Do you feel uniquely qualified to discuss things like, I don t know, gun control, for example, or do you think a lot of these people are kind of piggybacking on this?
3
SPEAKER_01
Over the years and since when I got out and became a public speaker and what I ve been doing,
3
SPEAKER_01
If you see me on TV or if I m at a political event, either Democratic or Republican, they bring me in from my perspective because I mean, I m 40 years old now.
3
SPEAKER_01
My last 40 years of my life, I lived every bit of it to the extreme and everything I could get myself into.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then when I became a public speaker, I mean, I travel around the country, the world, integrating into every town, city, uh, from neighborhoods, you name it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And with the charity stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I have a unique perspective on the country because I m, I m around it 300 days out of the year.
3
SPEAKER_01
Most of the time, just get to know all these people.
3
SPEAKER_01
And because most people know my background and what I m got put into the public eye for, they open up to me.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to say a lot easier than most people, but I mean, they, they, they trust me.
3
SPEAKER_01
They know what I ll, what I did, what I ll do for them.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, and that s hardcore in my family.
3
SPEAKER_01
What you need to know is, um, we have a saying, I mean, die for any woman, fight alongside any man.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that s kind of how I was raised.
3
SPEAKER_01
And once I meet somebody and it s just, they don t, they don t try and we got your questions or pin me up or get me somewhere where that were.
3
SPEAKER_01
They shouldn t go with it.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s authenticity.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, and I can defend myself now after being trained for a while, so it s not usually how it worked out real well.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, a lot of my friends, especially conversations I ve had with Art of Charm clients who are also in special operations, we tend to get a lot of special operations guys here, I think they realize just, you guys have a different view of training, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
You look at training as a reward, some way to kind of get better, gain a,
3
SPEAKER_00
0.1% edge on something and you take it, whereas I think the civilian population looks at training often like, oh, I have to go to this dumb training because my boss thinks I m stupid, or my boss thinks I need help with this, and the ego gets in the way and looks at training in the civilian world like a need, oh, you don t know this, you need improvement, and I feel like the special operations community looks at things differently from that.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of a warrior thing, right, looking at any kind of,
3
SPEAKER_00
of test of will or might or whatever drive as something that forges you out of steel versus something that s there to beat you down and put you in your place.
3
SPEAKER_01
Would you agree with that?
3
SPEAKER_01
Let me go like this.
3
SPEAKER_01
In civilian training, when you have a job, they send you to a school to learn how to do something, it s to get to the end game, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
And most people, when they re training for something, they see the end game and they train for it one direction.
3
SPEAKER_01
What we do in our community is, is there s all, yeah, the quickest way to get in between two points is a straight line, man.
3
SPEAKER_01
But when that one goes bad, what are you going to do?
3
SPEAKER_01
So we actually trained for the 359 other different directions, the Omni direction.
3
SPEAKER_01
Every guy has a special skillset and then every guy also has every other guy s skillset.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if you kill one of us, man, the other dude just steps up in his place and we roll to, you have to, you have to eliminate every, every one of us.
3
SPEAKER_01
And, and, uh,
3
SPEAKER_01
We, I see that a lot of people find an excuse to get out of something, especially if it gets hard, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
We will find that a scrap of something just to stay in it, just to stay there in it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And even if it s miserable and the difference is, is because of our training and the world we live in.
3
SPEAKER_01
Most people don t want to deal in the misery that we do.
3
SPEAKER_02
Well, the application of pain is the essential ignition point for us, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
And when you can translate somebody s psychology to not be resistant or fear of that pain, whether it s physical, mental or emotional, you know, and those drivers, well, we conform to that pain.
3
SPEAKER_02
search for it, seek it out, because we know in the long run when we are confronted with those extreme operational environments, those that when those high performance thresholds are required, we re not going to break.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re not going to crack.
3
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We ve we ve gone through the stress inoculation.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re ready.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re prepared.
3
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And like you said, in the civilian, I do a lot of corporate civilian training.
3
SPEAKER_02
I do a lot of private training and mentoring from professional athletes, the kids going in the SEAL training.
3
SPEAKER_02
And the reality is, is just natural civilians are preconditioned for that comfort zone behavioral pattern.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so when you apply pain in a training program, whatever the level it is, there s natural reluctance or resistance.
3
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For us, we gravitate.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re searching out the pain.
3
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It s this too, man.
3
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Most people, when they start, they ll come in, they ll stretch, they ll start training.
3
SPEAKER_01
Then when they get tired or the pain, they ll quit.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, our program is designed.
3
SPEAKER_01
So when you wake up in the morning, it s the beat down start.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, and then you re by the end of the day is when you do your training, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know that one track.
3
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, there s 11 beat down evolutions.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then by the time you get to it and they re putting a gun in your hand, you re like, if you even make one mistake, you re out of here.
3
SPEAKER_01
They take us all the way down to nothing.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you re in the, the, the chaos pain and all that stuff like threshold.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then you start training and it s baby steps, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s literally baby, like how to hold your wall.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Crawl, walk, run.
3
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That s why our process is so long.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that way, when the fight starts, and then when we re tired and we know our enemy s tired, well, when they re tired, they re done.
3
SPEAKER_01
When we re tired, we re just getting warmed up, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Right, so you train kind of laterally instead of vertically.
3
SPEAKER_00
You can all kind of replace each other s jobs and you seek out the pain, like you said.
3
SPEAKER_00
How can civilians develop some of that mental toughness and tenacity since we re never going through buds or war?
3
SPEAKER_00
How can civilians start to pick that up?
3
SPEAKER_00
Or is it literally not possible, which is why the training works and why it s so extreme in the first place?
3
SPEAKER_00
I think one of the differences is the fact that it s how fast you can adapt to the pain
4
SPEAKER_00
and learn, okay?
4
SPEAKER_00
And that has to do with a certain age.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there s a mean average, there s, they don t know why certain guys make it, but think about it like this, and I ll put it into perspective for you.
4
SPEAKER_00
So there s things you ll do as a child that you think are great.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then once you become a civilian, you re like, well, that s dangerous.
4
SPEAKER_00
And perfect example during BUST is one of the things they do is water, surf torture.
4
SPEAKER_00
So they ll just throw us out in the water and leave us there, man.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, until guys will just quit, they ll break, they ll cold water, they ll get you.
4
SPEAKER_00
If they don t like you, man, or if you don t want to get rid of you, they ll just put you in the cold water.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, I kept calling home and telling Morgan, I was like, man, the surf torture water s cold.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, he sent me a newspaper article of a, I think it was a seven-year-old boy who was down at the Hotel Dell, had goggles on, swim trunks.
4
SPEAKER_00
And the caption said, you know, so-and-so been frolicking in the water all day and loved it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then literally down the way there, you got supposedly the hardest dudes on the planet laying in the water going, oh my God, I can t take this anymore.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s a mind trip right and it s the guys who can see that it I mean and and that s all Pain really is is is is the mind saying man?
4
SPEAKER_00
I I don t this isn t right So let s get some pain in here and get us out of here But once you can push past that part and you and you make it relative because that pain and chaos is relative to the beholder then
4
SPEAKER_00
That s how you, and that s how we inevitably, that s how we, we succeed, man.
4
SPEAKER_00
There s like, there ain t nobody coming in here this way or this direction.
4
SPEAKER_00
Can this storm?
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, we will.
4
SPEAKER_02
But Jordan, the thing is, is it, is it possible for civilians?
4
SPEAKER_02
Absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_02
I mean, you look at, that s one of the, the founding points why Marcus and I started the team never quit podcast because there, we were intent on saying, showing people that you don t have to be a Navy SEAL in order to do the incredible insane things that, and that you
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean like we all I mean you guys have the same skill sets
4
SPEAKER_00
We have, I mean, we just spent more time honing them in and collecting them, uh, skill sets in different directions.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right.
4
SPEAKER_02
So two examples, two examples, we, one of the, we had Diana Nyad on the woman who swam from Cuba to Florida, right.
4
SPEAKER_02
Spent 30 years trying to accomplish that task.
4
SPEAKER_02
You go, why the hell would anybody want to do that?
4
SPEAKER_02
Right.
4
SPEAKER_02
Let s make the attempt five times on the flip side.
4
SPEAKER_02
We had Jordan Romero climbed Mount Everest at 13 years old.
4
SPEAKER_02
But this was after he had already climbed the highest peaks on five other continents, right?
4
SPEAKER_02
So they re not Navy SEALs.
4
SPEAKER_02
They have no desire to become Navy SEALs.
4
SPEAKER_02
So what is the trigger component from a motivational perspective in their minds that allows them to endure the pain and the conquest of that
4
SPEAKER_00
different ages, different sexes.
4
SPEAKER_00
This is an influence.
4
SPEAKER_00
Did they get hurt?
4
SPEAKER_00
Did they lose somebody?
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, every human is built the same.
4
SPEAKER_00
We say, we talk about science proving that, man, we can all accomplish the same thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s the driving and how bad you want it.
4
SPEAKER_00
How bad do you dream about it?
4
SPEAKER_00
You think about it day and night.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, like I said, I was small and slow.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I literally thought, all right, everybody is so good at this.
4
SPEAKER_00
If I kick this bag 500 times, that other dude must be doing a thousand.
4
SPEAKER_00
What else do I got going on?
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, people rationalize their life in that ages.
4
SPEAKER_00
We don t do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
We were actually like day to day, man.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I like we, I had 40 the other day and I m just starting, I m taking everything I learned when I was 40 and then starting something.
4
SPEAKER_00
People tend to slow down at the end of it and we just get fired up.
4
SPEAKER_00
And basically what we are is we have the ability to learn just about anything we have to, to, to succeed.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s what you learn going through SEAL training because you can take it the worst, the worst of it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then the most technical parts, I mean, we ve got guys in SEAL teams that just,
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, smart.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m like, man, what are you doing in here?
4
SPEAKER_00
Rocket scientist.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s just that guy.
4
SPEAKER_00
He s that kind of guy.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, they we gravitate towards each other.
4
SPEAKER_00
And we have Harvard, Yale.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, Ivy Leaguers, just trust fund guys.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then you got their GEDs.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
country boys like us, and then- Former gangbangers.
4
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it s remarkable.
4
SPEAKER_00
Really?
4
SPEAKER_02
And it goes back, Jordan, to what you re asking.
4
SPEAKER_02
Where is that trigger point that makes you want to endure the pain to submit to a training program that makes you the best?
4
SPEAKER_02
So how do civilians do it?
4
SPEAKER_02
First and foremost, establish a quest or challenge that s bigger than anything you can imagine, that when you lay it out in front of you, they re like, there s no way I ll ever be able to do that.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, guess what?
4
SPEAKER_02
Sign up for it.
4
SPEAKER_02
Go for it.
4
SPEAKER_02
Show up a million times.
4
SPEAKER_02
Every dude, every guy says that, man.
4
SPEAKER_00
I can never, you know, that other guy is going to be stronger than me.
4
SPEAKER_00
So he doesn t go.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then everybody starts to say that and then no one shows up, man.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s no matter how many times I ever been hit and my times ever, right, man, the difference is, is just keep standing up.
4
SPEAKER_00
And cause eventually what happens to the guy next to you will not stand up.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right.
4
SPEAKER_00
And.
4
SPEAKER_00
I joke about this the other day.
4
SPEAKER_00
We re talking about like guys will hear us in an article, say a bunch of team guys are sitting around and we ll hear a story about a fight or a war story or something like that.
4
SPEAKER_00
And a lot of people be like, oh, man, that is terrible.
4
SPEAKER_00
God, did everybody hope everybody got it?
4
SPEAKER_00
And then there s guys like us like, oh, that was all I wish I was there.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, my God, man.
4
SPEAKER_00
How awesome was that?
4
SPEAKER_00
Tell me about it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then when you do that out loud, some people are like, what is it?
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s just we ve gone so far down our path that that mentality is what makes us good at it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right.
4
SPEAKER_00
You eat it, you eat it up, man.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, and the more, the deeper you get into it, the more you eat it up.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then when it s over, it s hard to transition out of it.
4
SPEAKER_00
But then if you think about it by taking all everything that I had learned and not, maybe not, it doesn t have to, I can apply all that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Not in this job.
4
SPEAKER_00
I wonder what I can wonder what I can accomplish in this job with all the skillsets I have and just start randomly picking them out.
4
SPEAKER_01
What mental practices do you guys use in the SEALs to block out things like distraction and physical pain so that you can stay focused on the goal at hand?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like you talked about drawing that line in the sand after you lost the team and crawling until you cross the line and then you draw the new line.
4
SPEAKER_01
What mental practices and what do you tap into now that the stakes aren t that high, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like you re not crawling away from Taliban, but you still have to tap into something.
4
SPEAKER_01
What sort of mental practices are there that keep you moving forward when you hit resistance?
4
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, I mean, I don t look at like, Oh, I m not glad I m not crawling through.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s kind of, I know how far I can be pushed.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so do all the seals.
4
SPEAKER_00
Cause if I could take that, every one of them can, that s, that s the unique thing about me coming back, man, is like, they know how far we can take it now.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like the hell week and everything we did all that training and justified it because I was out there and I had to go through it in real life.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I, and I, I came back and the guys who got men, this, how hard they fought.
4
SPEAKER_00
So all the training and all the men that had that, that do that, man, they know they can take that.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s kind of a.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we got beat man, but there s You know, there s victory and defeat.
4
SPEAKER_00
They say every gunfight is the same It s just who you re with makes it different right and that that s there s a lot of truth in that So sure and and I think you know jordan what you re asking is you you want to say?
4
SPEAKER_02
All right Well now that you know, we we started a podcast how you know, we re it s certainly there s no you know The existential reality of our death is not going to occur if we blow an interview
4
SPEAKER_02
That s for sure.
4
SPEAKER_02
But what we think about is, all right, we want to become the best possible podcast we can do or he wants to become the best possible father.
4
SPEAKER_02
We frame the reference.
4
SPEAKER_02
Granted, you know, the immediacy of our death isn t isn t, you know, staring us in the face every single second.
4
SPEAKER_02
But establishing those goals.
4
SPEAKER_02
Right.
4
SPEAKER_02
The criteria that we know that we need to be objective about in order to accomplish those goals, to chip away and to go through that painful process of growth, to become experts or elite at whatever we re choosing to do.
4
SPEAKER_00
And the military is called squared away and people when we get out of the OCD and all that stuff like that.
4
SPEAKER_00
When I get up in the morning, check my wife s tires, and if we re going on a trip, we re always prepared.
4
SPEAKER_01
Do you guys know Jocko Willink, by any chance?
4
SPEAKER_01
You know Jocko?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yep.
4
SPEAKER_01
You guys do, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
So we re talking about being prepared as well.
4
SPEAKER_01
And as soon as, of course, as soon as I went down to San Diego to talk with him,
4
SPEAKER_01
The batteries ran out, one of the microphones broke and all this stuff and I had backups of each of those things and he was kind of chuckling because he s like, yeah, that s one thing that we definitely share is that kind of OCD like, well, good thing I have an extra everything in my suitcase.
4
SPEAKER_01
which is unusual, usually when people run out of things, and just looking at my own past experience, you re screwed.
4
SPEAKER_01
But, you know, what can I say?
4
SPEAKER_01
The Boy Scouts and the Navy Seals have that in common, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Be prepared to the point where you re kind of overthinking it, maybe, but the second you don t overthink it, you find that s when you need it.
4
SPEAKER_01
It can get bad.
4
SPEAKER_02
One is none.
4
SPEAKER_02
Right.
4
SPEAKER_02
One is none.
4
SPEAKER_02
And how did you learn that, Jordan?
4
SPEAKER_02
Right.
4
SPEAKER_02
You learned it either through influence, through somebody teaching you in a training component, or you learn the hard way because you messed up.
4
SPEAKER_02
And yeah, the hard way, the hard way.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I mean, like for me, for instance, I was kind of one of those team guys.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, if two is one, then I need seven watches.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, I mean, you walk into my locker, you re like nine, nine.
4
SPEAKER_00
It does somebody was getting out of retiring.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m like, what do you got in that golden cruise box?
4
SPEAKER_00
Especially when you re a new guy.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you just, you just have, it s because you re so excited that it s all new.
4
SPEAKER_00
And, and then you learn as what you re saying and Jocko, uh, you know, that two is one, one is none.
4
SPEAKER_00
That is an absolute critical must write down on every leadership deal, man, because it will go wrong.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think for sure the lessons that you learn in the hardware are the ones you remember the most, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
The ones that you learn through influence are all fine and good.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I ll tell you, the reason I overpack underwear for every trip that I do nowadays is because one day at Boy Scout camp, I shat myself in the middle of the night and there was no backup.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you go, note to self, eight-year-old Jordan, bring underwear, more pairs than you need, you know?
4
SPEAKER_01
And you just do it.
5
SPEAKER_00
and it s always about the hard lesson.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I feel like if you haven t shat yourself, you just haven t learned that underwear lesson, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
You won t.
5
SPEAKER_00
You ll just think it s all academic.
5
SPEAKER_00
It ll be academic to you.
5
SPEAKER_00
Thanks for listening and supporting the Art of Charm.
5
SPEAKER_00
For a list of all of the amazing sponsors and discount codes, visit theartofcharm.com slash advertisers.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now, back to the show.
5
SPEAKER_00
I gotta ask, there s something called imposter syndrome that a lot of folks write in, they say they have this.
5
SPEAKER_00
Have you guys heard of imposter syndrome?
5
SPEAKER_00
Are you familiar with this?
5
SPEAKER_00
I ve never heard of it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Imposter syndrome is when you feel like you re the only person that maybe got into that university, slipping through the cracks, and you don t really belong there.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or you got promoted to XYZ level, but really it s only a matter of time till other people find out you re
5
SPEAKER_00
you re a fraud and you don t belong there.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I had it when I worked on Wall Street as an attorney.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I m the dumbest one here.
5
SPEAKER_00
They re gonna find out I m not a good lawyer.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m wondering, do SEALs suffer from imposter syndrome like other high performers?
5
SPEAKER_00
I cannot believe they labeled that.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, they ve studied it extensively.
5
SPEAKER_02
The cats in Cambridge do.
5
SPEAKER_02
How the hell can you label that?
5
SPEAKER_01
When you go in and the people around you are high performers, you re like, man, I gotta put out every day just to, hell,
5
SPEAKER_01
Now I have a label on me now.
5
SPEAKER_01
What are you talking about, man?
5
SPEAKER_01
No, that s not.
5
SPEAKER_01
Look, it keeps you driving forward, man.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s that I always that not perfection because I always say, you know, don t master anything.
5
SPEAKER_01
Understand every as much as you can.
5
SPEAKER_01
And.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, it s the interesting thing in our community is right.
5
SPEAKER_02
We we kind of flip it around.
5
SPEAKER_01
So it s not an it s people who that they ve been and they think that s a problem, man.
5
SPEAKER_01
Maybe I shouldn t talk on this, man.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re fine.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re good to go.
5
SPEAKER_01
Don t try.
5
SPEAKER_01
Never quit, man.
5
SPEAKER_01
Just keep getting in there.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, so for us, it s you, you re the peer evaluation and the peer review context of our community is, is, is so overwhelming that it s built in.
5
SPEAKER_02
So we intentionally drive earn your train every day.
5
SPEAKER_02
We, we drive that fear into each new guy, into each student.
5
SPEAKER_02
intentionally.
5
SPEAKER_02
We want them to feel, I don t belong.
5
SPEAKER_02
I don t, I can t be here.
5
SPEAKER_02
And it s those kids that quit that were like, sweet, get out of here.
5
SPEAKER_02
Because those are the people who, you know, cave into the imposter syndrome, but we want the people that will elevate and get to a point where they then turn it around and start imposing it themselves.
5
SPEAKER_01
Imposter syndrome, does that include
5
SPEAKER_01
quitting, I mean up to quitting, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
So they think they re not going to be quitting.
5
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t mean they quit.
5
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t mean they quit.
5
SPEAKER_00
It just means they feel like, Oh fuck, I m the guy here who s got to outwork everyone because I m a big deal.
5
SPEAKER_01
Every seal thinks that man, it s that they quit.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s a difference, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
Right.
5
SPEAKER_01
Between.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
We just don t quit.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean like, yeah, I know I m not any good, but I was good enough today.
5
SPEAKER_01
And we literally say earn our Triton every day.
5
SPEAKER_01
You can come into work for 10 years and do everything perfect.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then you screw up and then it must be like, man,
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, a trail dude came in late.
5
SPEAKER_01
And in the next six months, you re having to build your reputation.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s called building your reputation.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
No, I think the reason that high performers have this is in part because we do judge ourselves so harshly, but it seems like SEALs wouldn t be immune to that.
5
SPEAKER_00
It seems like every time you do a boat race or whatever, you re looking at, man, we came in second.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know, oh, it s probably my fault.
5
SPEAKER_00
I gotta work harder next time.
5
SPEAKER_00
I hope the chief didn t notice that maybe I was lollygagging or tired.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it seems like every high performer has this, and a lot of the show fans wanted to know if you guys felt that way, or if you guys always felt good and confident about what you were doing and your position in the teams.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, they great exploit that the greatest they exploit it like i m saying and the greatest thing at least I know for me and for when my students when I had students You know the whole thing is to it really instill a sense that if i m not feeling that then i m letting my teammate down And they re gonna lack they re not gonna have the trust in me that when it really goes for real That i m gonna screw up and i m not gonna be there for them.
5
SPEAKER_02
So we we we drive that into them action speak
5
SPEAKER_01
That s what actions are.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, they constantly tell you you re not good enough.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re not supposed to be here every single day.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then we do an evolution, then you fail it.
5
SPEAKER_01
But at the end of the day, if you re standing there and they re like, see you tomorrow, then...
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, sweet, sweet.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Not only did I not think I was good enough, he told me I was not good enough every single day, but now I m here and I ll be here in the morning.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then I was there the next day and then I graduated.
5
SPEAKER_01
So they don t ever tell you congratulations.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I don t even remember.
5
SPEAKER_01
Is it graduation when you.
5
SPEAKER_01
Pass over that threshold and they re like, you re a loser.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re not going to, you don t belong here because it doesn t.
5
SPEAKER_01
Remember when you get in the team.
5
SPEAKER_01
In the unlikely event that you do graduate, all the way up to the day of graduation.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then when you graduate, you get to the team, you re a new guy.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then after one platoon, you re a one platoon wonder.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then you re a two pump chump.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then, I mean, literally you have to be the CNO.
5
SPEAKER_02
the highest.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
And then they keep that performance.
5
SPEAKER_02
The tier one units apply that, that, that pressure and that peer evaluation on each other.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s part of keeping the edge sharp.
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And it s, I believe personally, it s the greatest contribution that we have to maintain the brotherhood and the willingness to sacrifice at the highest possible level for each other up to including our own deaths.
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If you, if we knew we had to get waterboarded every day in one of the phases, guys would still, we do it.
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I did.
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We did get one.
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I mean, all right, that s this part of the program.
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This sucks, man.
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These guys get waterboarded, but you know, you might, you might even die.
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I mean, guys die and it doesn t matter.
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I mean, it s the weirdest thing I ve ever talked about out loud.
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God, we re nuts, dude.
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Can you believe that?
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Tie your hands and tie your hands and feet together and tell us in the deep.
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Great.
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Great.
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That dude can t even swim anyways.
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This all speaks to a nearly maniacal level of competitive instinct either with other people or most likely with yourself.
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Would you say that s the case with you?
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I mean, I know you started training to be a SEAL when you were 14.
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Most 14-year-old kids are watching cartoons.
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So this seems like something that was either born in you or developed very early on.
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And do you see that with Rutt, especially you having seen a bunch of guys in training, do you think that this is something that you are
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you re born or develop early on, or is this something where you could take a schlup and turn them into somebody who could last and do this?
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Well, I ll go first.
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And I think Marcus and I have a kind of a little different views on it.
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I believe because they ve been trying to study this for the past 30 years at our program.
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They ve really dug in and tried to understand who s the kid that s going to make it.
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And I ll tell you, when I was in Bud s and I m sitting there and I m getting
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hammered at the combat training tank or out on the beach.
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The guy on my right is a former gangbanger from Denver who has a GED.
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The guy on my left has an English lit degree from Clemson.
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The guy behind me worked on Wall Street.
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The guy in front of me was from Arkansas, who barely graduated high school, never played sports, was a loner, and we re all in there doing the same thing.
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Yeah, and and so what that says to me, it s I don t know if we re necessarily safe It s much I think the instructors to a certain extent can be maniacal.
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It s not the intention You know every I get it all the time.
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Why are what what s you know?
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Why are you guys sadist is the pain pleasurable all this crazies?
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And as no it s part of the psychological development, right?
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We need to push the individual to the submission point to where they can begin to realize that the success is not a personal
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It s not, oh yeah, I m squared away.
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I m competitive.
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I can hang.
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I m the best.
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It s no, I can endure this to make sure the guy next to me has confidence in me to go to combat with me.
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That s why we train our own.
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I mean, those, the, the, the guys coming after you are a by-product of, of our generation as instructors and what we went through.
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So, I mean, if we went through hell and then they re instructors now, those guys coming through are going to go through it just to, to, to, to, to, to,
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It s all about proving yourself to the guys who went before you.
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And I don t know if that sounds right or anything, but to take it to an athlete s point and maniacal or whatever, well, I mean, that s kind of one of those deals too, where athletes train to win no matter what sports are in.
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Our sport is combat.
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We train to win.
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Winning means we re going to kill.
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And that translates to the financial industry.
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I mean, I do a truckload of work in the top private wealth guys in New York City and Chicago and Boston and work with those firms and these guys.
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And you know what?
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They love to talk about their, their lifestyle as this, this, uh, you know, combative, you know, gladiatorial environment.
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And so, you know, they want to push themselves to.
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And it is Metarina.
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In that arena, it s true.
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It translates across the board.
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We just have a unique perspective because of the magnitude, intensity of actual pain that s involved and how rapidly we can wipe a
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a person s cultural coding, and then reprogram them with what we need them to do from a selfless perspective on the battlefield.
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So do you think that someone without military training can cultivate and maintain the self-discipline to do the difficult things necessary, like to really crush their goals, or is this something unique to SEALs?
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Because I feel like what you re teaching, I mean, tell us what you re doing and teaching at Team Never Quit.
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I mean, how are you bringing these mindsets by through training?
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Here s the mistake everybody makes, all right?
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And this is what they teach us from the very beginning, all right?
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Everyone always sees the end game, the guy hitting the home run in the World Series, the Navy SEAL doing, you know, the Vent Lottery.
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And what we do at T&Q is we show you that with all the end games, the beginnings are the same, all right?
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And I mean, it starts with just getting up and walking to something or studying something.
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Eventually, you study long enough, you get good at it.
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And youth is a tool.
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I mean, we back this up.
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I mean, I don t, I don t suggest you go through SEAL training at 70 or anything.
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I mean, you know, Hey, that guy ran through Australia.
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What, how old is he, man?
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He s like 68 or something.
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So what we teach you and what we try to, we bring all these exceptional people on who ve, who ve done these just.
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incredible things in every field and we boil it all the way down to the beginning and everyone always says they re relatively the same thing maybe in a different format but it s always like hey you know i just got up man i set a goal for myself i never let anybody tell me that i i couldn t do it even if they did i didn t believe it and uh i just kept going i mean what else are you going to do you can t not going to stop and that s
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That s what we do in the very beginning.
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I mean, it is as simple as standing in a line from tallest to shortest.
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And then it s just how fast we have to learn it and the environment we do it.
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And.
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You have to want it, I mean, and depending on what you re trying to accomplish is going to depending on how bad you want it, man, because in our world, you have to take not only the mental pain, you got to take the physical pain and then the emotional pain when our guys die.
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I mean, there s a whole truckload of stuff that comes with it, but.
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You can pick something in your life that doesn t have to take you that far down the rabbit s hole.
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And getting up to that point is simply like, man, you learned how to work this microphone, so did I. I learned how to work the computer, so did somebody else.
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Just keep working at all.
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Everyone always transitions from one to the other and leaves the other one behind thinking that it s going to be, it s in there.
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It s good to go.
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We don t do that.
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We just, we always circle back to the beginning and retrain and retrain and retrain.
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Uh, they say that, uh, someone who has mastered something has just mastered the basics.
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And once you get that, it s called your baseline.
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And that means no one can push you past that.
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I mean, the politicians, everybody would like with the seals, they draw the lines in the sand.
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And when all those wash away, we re the baseline.
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The team never quit podcast.
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What our, our goal is to say, Hey, there s a commonality throughout the human condition, no matter where you re from, what culture, what socioeconomic background, you know, there s a plain feel a baseline that s out there.
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And the baseline is your decision to say, yeah, I m going to get stand back up or I m going to make that line.
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I m going to crawl to it.
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I m going to make that line and I m going to crawl to it enough times to where you hit that that place where nothing s going to stop you from achieving your objective.
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And then you get there and then you re there.
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All of a sudden you re like, man, I didn t even realize we did all this.
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And I know it s in my head now, but because you re at the end game and that s the success, whatever being the professional athlete, the Navy SEAL or something like that.
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And then when you look back on it, it was all worth it.
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I ll give you a perfect example, Jordan.
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We we had Dustin Pedroia on from the Red Sox, right?
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Arguably probably one of the top second baseman s in Red Sox history.
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And and his whole never quit thing was everybody always told him he was never going to make it to the next level because he was the smallest kid on the field, because he was the he didn t he wasn t big and fast and all this.
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But he worked harder than everybody else.
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And so every place you get
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He wouldn t take no for an answer.
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He wouldn t quit.
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He kept going back to the entire flip side.
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We had Laura Logan on recently and her never quit story was the fact she didn t quit while she was getting gang raped by 200 crazy people in Tafalgar Square in Egypt.
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And it was the came down to the simple, most simplistic form of never quitting is just take a breath.
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And all she could say to herself was just take a breath, take a breath.
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So that s what we re trying to expose people, whether it s through the Team Never Quit speakers that are out there, whether it s through the podcast, is that, listen, there s a place in all of us where if you can keep that fire in your gut burning, no matter how fast or how much external the combat of life is pummeling the snot out of you,
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If you just keep that fire lit and figure out what your fuel is, nothing s going to stop you, no matter what.
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I mean, you can t be broken mentally because it can t touch your mind, right?
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I mean, they can t get in there and other than a stroke or something.
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So think about it like that.
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And the body wants to stay alive.
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That s another thing that happens in the SEAL teams, man.
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We know the physical and even you guys, man, and y all know this.
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Jordan, man, your body can take so much it wants to stay alive.
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There s mechanisms that ll heal it by itself, and I mean, just as long as that mind is pushing it.
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Well, guys, thank you so much for indulging our questions here.
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Is there anything left that you haven t said that you wanna make sure you deliver to the AOC family?
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Anything I haven t asked you?
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I think one of the biggest things that people need to understand about Marcus and Marcus s backstory, and I m going to speak for you here, brother, because I love you, is you got to understand that here s a guy, yes, in looking at his story, it s remarkable.
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He s never gonna say that, but from an outsider s perspective, when you look at the fact that he never quit on that mountain that day, he survived, but then he went, joined another SEAL platoon, went back to combat in Ramadi, and then got out and then carried the name
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of his brothers for as long as he did, the success of the book, the movie itself, and now continues to influence, whether it s in the political arena, whether it s with celebrities, or more importantly, for the average person who tunes into our podcast, is to give inspiration and hope that you don t have to be a Navy SEAL to never quit.
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You have it inside you.
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And so, you know, to understand that you can, you know, again, going back to what he says is you re not defined.
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He s not defined as a Navy SEAL anymore.
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I mean, it s a component of his life that he s able to utilize now as a person of influence for the never quit mindset.
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And that s the mission.
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And that s why, you know, that s why we do what we do.
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And that s why we get on board on the team.
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Never quit that that Marcus started.
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Well, thanks so much, guys.
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Really appreciate the candor and your energy and your advice today.
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I think a lot of people are gonna get value from hearing about, well, first of all, that everybody has the imposter syndrome and also that it s possible to move yourself past anything that you ve previously thought possible.
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And you guys are living proof of that.
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And Rud, I really appreciate you coming on as well as Marcus because
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Frankly, we didn t know exactly that you were going to come on and we weren t really sure.
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I think it wasn t confirmed.
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So you did a great job of kind of improvising, surprise, surprise, even though we were less prepared to have you on.
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Thank you, Jordan, for what you said, man.
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And it s my pleasure.
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Thanks for adapting, allowing me to come on with Marcus.
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I ve been thinking about this, this, this imposter syndrome thing.
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I can t believe it.
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So it s kind of, if you ve talked to people who say they had that and they, and they re in that position, it s probably somebody telling them that they re not good enough.
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And even if they are thinking that you need to tell them that man, maybe they ve taken what they re doing as far as they can.
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And that s them needing to shift because your body talks to you.
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I mean, that the Spidey sense of hair stand on top of your neck, man, if you re just uncomfortable or unhappy.
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I mean, move on.
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Take all the knowledge you gained in that one deal and push to the next one.
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Look, man, don t beat yourself down.
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Don t tell yourself that you re not good enough, man, because people are going to be doing that around you.
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Let them think that and then just keep that fired.
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I mean, that s all, you know, we ever had.
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Thanks so much, guys.
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Take care.
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It was good talking to those guys.
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It took forever to book them because Marcus speaks a lot everywhere, and he s probably done a lot of talking about the same story, so it s kind of cool to get something different out of those two guys.
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If you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Marcus and Rut on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as the other resources mentioned on the show.
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You can, by the way, tap the album art, so you can tap the image of us, the cartoon image of us on your screen, on your phone screen, and the show notes will show up on your phone.
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I m also on Twitter.
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A lot of people engage with me there.
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I post a lot of stuff that doesn t make it to the show.
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That s at theartofcharm on Twitter.
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Boot camps and live program details to learn directly from us here at AOC, bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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And remember, we sell out a few months in advance, so if you re thinking about it a little bit, get in touch with us ASAP, get some info from us so you can plan ahead.
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And I also want to encourage you to join the AOC Challenge, that s theartofcharm.com slash challenge.
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or if you re here in the states, you can text charmed to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
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We ve designed the challenge to improve your networking ability, your connection ability, and to inspire those around you to develop personal and professional relationships with you.
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And we ll also send you that fundamentals toolbox that I mentioned earlier in the show with all the body language and persuasion stuff.
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And I also do regular videos
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with drills and exercises to help you move forward, and I do one of those every single week, along with Q&A here and there, so it s a lot of fun, for me anyway, and you guys seem to like it as well.
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It will make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker, which is really important.
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At the end of the day, that s the most important.
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That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or text charmed in the US to 33444.
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For full show notes for this and all previous episodes, head on over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFilippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
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Show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else either in person or shared on the web.
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So stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.