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The reality is there are a lot of things that we re already doing without realizing it that are our specialty, where we re delivering a really specific benefit.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm, I m your host Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re talking with my friend Sally Hogshead.
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You should listen to this episode if you want to learn why standing out is actually your greatest competitive advantage, how to find your particular strengths and use them for maximum leverage in your career.
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And she s going to dismantle Jason and myself after we ve taken her fascination test to see how we stack up and what we can leverage
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and how you can do the same with what applies to your particular situation, lifestyle, and career.
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So enjoy this one with Sally Hogshead.
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And by the way, if you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the AOC toolbox.
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That s where we discuss things like reading body language and nonverbal communication, negotiation techniques, networking, mentorship, influence, persuasion tactics, and basically everything else that we teach here at AOC.
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In the US, just text charmed to 33444.
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That s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
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Everywhere else, go to theartofcharm.com.
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Also at theartofcharm.com slash podcast, you can find the full show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show.
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Alright, here s Sally Hogshead.
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First of all, you became one of the top advertising professionals by age 24.
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How does that even work?
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I don t think I was good at anything at age 24.
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Well, it helps to have a very specific idea of what you want to be able to do, and then do it differently than everybody else.
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Like I say, different is better than better.
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So I didn t focus on being better, I focused on being different.
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When did you start that process?
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Because I m thinking, you don t just go, oh, I got my first job, I m 22, let me just be awesome at this, and different.
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Did you think when you were 15, 14, whatever, even younger, I m really good at writing and I m good at all these different things, what profession will be suitable for me?
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Because I was still dilly-dallying with that decision when I was probably 27.
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Well, one of the things I noticed about people who are most successful, you know, the high performance, especially at a young age, that they re very polarizing in the way they find their first job.
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And a lot of companies say, you re absolutely not right for this position.
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And it s because they re definitively not right for a lot of positions that they are,
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extraordinary in other positions.
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So when I first started out in advertising, it s very creative.
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You create what s called a portfolio.
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And for the first three to six months, I was unemployed.
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I mean, I was literally ready to go start flipping burgers because people were saying, no, the kind of work you do isn t right for us.
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But then when I got a job, it was with an agency named Widening Kennedy, and I was working on the Nike account.
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So my very first job was just do it.
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My next job, I was working on BMW, Coca-Cola, and then I went on to start my own agency where I was working on Target and Godiva and Harry Winston.
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So here s the key.
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It s good to be better than the other people who are in your profession.
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It s good to be better, but it s better to be different.
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And so one of the keys that we re going to be talking about today in our conversation is how do you identify the ways in which you are different than other people so that you can position yourself to be a high performer and to not be a commodity, you know, so that you can charge more and you can be more in demand.
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Why did you decide to be different in the first place?
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How did you originally spot that advantage?
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I got that advantage when I was on the playground with the last name Hogshead, and I was getting beaten up with sticks and stones.
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Yeah, no kidding.
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It s easy to have an unconventional point of view when the name on your birth certificate is something that people make fun of.
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And even today, when I make a reservation in a restaurant, maitre d s think it s a joke, so they erase my reservation.
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My mom told me something really different.
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She told me something, a great piece of coaching at an early age.
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My mom, Mrs. Hogshead, she said, it s the thing about our name that s different that will one day make you love it.
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It was from that very early lesson that I started realizing, you know, we have to be able to stand out in a crowded marketplace.
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People are distracted.
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They don t want the same old, same old.
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And the more that you are replicable, the more that you can be replaced by somebody else, the more vulnerable you are, because then you have to start lowering your prices.
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Think of it like the difference between pistachio and vanilla.
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Pistachio has this hardcore loyal base of fans, whereas vanilla is the lowest common denominator.
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So the key is how do you identify the specific way in which you re different?
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And that s where I drew upon my advertising background, because brands have to be able to stand out instantly in that nine second attention span so that they can make an immediate first impression.
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And I think that s a key to the art of charm, to know the way in which people are going to be most impressed and influenced by you.
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So you never changed your name because you realize there s an advantage there, even if sometimes the disadvantage is you can t get a reservation at a restaurant.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Look, if you re trying to appeal to everybody, you re not going to appeal to anybody.
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If you re not turning off part of your audience, then you re not going to be fascinating and you re not going to be memorable.
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And when I look back on my clients, like one of my favorite clients was Jägermeister.
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And the whole key about Jägermeister is.
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It s disgusting.
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Oh, it s absolutely disgusting.
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That s the key.
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I worked with them for years as their brand leader and what we found in our research was the less you like the taste of Jägermeister, the more likely you are to drink it.
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So the people who hate Jägermeister drink it more than the people who actually like the taste of Jägermeister.
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And the reason is because Jägermeister isn t trying to offer a delicious taste or lower price or convenient service.
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Jägermeister is competing specifically because it offers a toxic experience.
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And so what happens is people,
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We said to people, we went and watched how they were behaving.
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So let me ask you a question.
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What day of the week are you most likely to drink Jagermeister?
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It s going to be the weekend, I would imagine.
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It s going to be a sad weekend.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Friday or Saturday.
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What time of day do most people drink Jagermeister?
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Evening.
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Yes.
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I would imagine.
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And early morning.
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So yes, you re going to drink Jagermeister on Friday or Saturday and you re going to drink it probably like 11 p.m.
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to 5 a.m.
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When we went in and watched people, they had very, very specific and predictable patterns.
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A group of people approaches the bar.
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Somebody says, hey guys, let s do a round of Jagermeister shots.
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And everybody says, no.
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And then all of a sudden that crazy button in their brain says, yes.
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And so the bartender comes over, brings them the platter of shots.
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Everybody looks at it, clenches, knowing that it s going to taste like kerosene.
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They pound the shot, they put the glass down, and they grimace.
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But then they look at each other, and they re doing fist bumps because, yeah, we just did it.
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You know, like there s this sort of,
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bonding ritual around how horrible Jägermeister tastes.
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So the lesson to take away from that is the way that the most loved and admired brands succeed is not by trying to be perfect for everyone, but by being extraordinary for exactly the right audience.
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And that s something that we can take away for ourselves.
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You re not perfect for everything and you shouldn t try to be.
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If you try to be good at everything, then you re good at nothing.
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So the whole point is, how can you find your own specialty?
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Right, and Jägermeister really nails it with that.
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Yeah, the time you drink Jägermeister is a direct result of the time you run out of literally everything else in the house after the liquor stores close.
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Should I have the battery acid drained from my car or should I do a shot?
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And here s an interesting point.
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We found that in our research that the biggest problem that Jägermeister has is that people age out of the brand before their legal drinking age.
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So 21-year-olds are like, oh, that s so high school.
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The parallel that we can apply to this is not that you should taste like battery acid.
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The key is if you don t have a specialty in your career, people are going to tune you out.
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So if you re detail-oriented, be really, really good at offering details and position yourself.
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Look for opportunities to deliver more details and to attract the kind of co-workers or clients or customers who are going to hire you because of details.
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On the other hand, if you re a big picture thinker, if you re a visionary, don t focus on details.
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Don t promise details.
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Don t put yourself in a position where you have a massive competitive disadvantage by being assigned to be accountable for details because you re never going to succeed in that way.
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That s what I built this system around.
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The fascination system is how do you identify what makes you different so you can do more of what you re already doing right?
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I like the book, Fascinate, How to Make Your Brand Impossible to Resist, and I want to make sure that people realize, like, look, this isn t about your small business if you don t have one.
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Keep listening because it s about people, it s about human skills, it s about a few different sort of buckets that this could be put in, and almost the last of which, for the purposes of this show, should be business,
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I see why you do it that way, because businesses hire keynote speakers, but the stuff applies to everyone.
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It s not just like, oh, I don t have a business.
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Click, what s the next episode of the show?
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I think it makes sense the way that you position the brand.
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However, I think it applies to everything, and you obviously know that, or you wouldn t have agreed to come on here in the first place.
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Yeah, I think that s a really excellent point.
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And also, it s not just for work.
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If you re going to make a first impression in your life, if you re going to go on a first date, if you re in a religious organization and you have a message that you think matters in any area, look, people want you to cut to the chase, get to the bottom line.
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And if you can t earn their attention in the first few seconds, then as far as they re concerned, you re just taking up space.
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How did you make this test?
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How did you develop all this?
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For the first decade of my career, when I was working on advertising, what I learned is that every brand has a choice.
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You can either have the biggest budget or you can be the most fascinating.
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In other words, if you have more money than everybody else, you can just afford to have a ton of commercials.
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And what I saw was there s a parallel between that and us as personalities, personal brands that need to walk and talk and attract attention and keep attention and get our messages out there.
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If you re not the most famous,
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If you re not the best funded, if you re not the most well-known and well-respected,
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then you have to compete in a different area, which is how do you fascinate people so that they focus on what you re saying, they take action on it, and they remember it and repeat it.
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So let s say you re going on a date.
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If you blend into everybody else in the online dating environment, people are just gonna click past your profile.
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And it s the exact same thing if you re in a business, if you re in a business presentation.
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If you keep raising your hand and you re not delivering substantive value, then people kind of tune you out.
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They put you in their mental spam filter.
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It s kind of like you become human spam.
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And so once I realized that in order for any of us to take the messages, the ideas that we believe in and have them count in the world, then we need to understand how we can fascinate.
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Fascination is a neurological state of intense focus.
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So when people are fascinated by you, they re just thinking about you, your message, how you re communicating.
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Neurologically, the brain responds.
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When you are fascinated by a TV show or a person or a concept, your brain looks like it s falling in love, like it s infatuated.
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It lights up.
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I took what I had learned about branding about 10 years ago.
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I began shifting over to studying people.
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And what I found is if you can measure how other people see you at your best, in other words, measure how your listener is most likely to be attracted to you or impressed by you, that s incredibly valuable information.
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Have you ever done a test, you know, like a traditional personality test?
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Yeah, like Myers-Briggs or whatever.
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Sure.
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I did it twice and I came up with different results several years apart.
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Those are great tests.
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They re built on psychology, and that s an important thing for you to know.
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What I discovered, though, is those assessments are all built on how you see the world.
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So imagine it s kind of looking out of your eyes out at the world.
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Right.
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It s not how other people see you.
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It s not how the world sees you.
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So if we take the same type of world-class principles, the best practices that high-end brands use, it s a focus group.
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So imagine if I could assemble a focus group and ask them, how do you see this person?
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How do you see Jordan?
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Or how do you see Alice?
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And then give me some adjectives to describe how you see them at their best.
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If we can give people that information, it becomes really easy to position yourself even when the market gets really crowded.
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So that s how I created the assessment.
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It took 10 years.
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I had an amazing team.
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We ve measured 1 million people now.
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And what we found is there are very distinct hidden patterns in your communication that you don t even realize.
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But once you know them, it s a huge competitive advantage.
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So let s talk about the sort of ADD world that we live in.
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Do you have some specific threats to standing out that you can outline here?
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Because it seems like with all of the influx of info, I can barely pay attention to
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things that are actually important because there are so many things that aren t.
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I mean, we talk about this all the time, just entrepreneurs, business people in general, how do we focus on what s important?
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How do we stay focused on what s important?
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How do we cut out noise?
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And everybody s like, cut out social media, don t do this, don t do that.
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What are we looking at?
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What are we up against and how do we fix it?
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That s such an important question.
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We ve all heard the statistics about attention span.
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The average attention span used to be 20 minutes long.
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When human beings worked on the farm, we didn t need to have a short attention span because we weren t bouncing from thing to thing to thing.
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It s not like you were going to spend nine seconds on the rooster and nine seconds on plowing.
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You needed a long attention span so you could stay engaged and focused.
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But with the rise of a lot of interruptions, that attention span s gotten shorter.
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And some people say eight seconds, people say nine.
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It s the attention span of a goldfish.
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So what we found was as people become more distracted, it becomes more important for you to have a shortcut so that you can earn those first few seconds of their attention by immediately adding value, capturing their attention, captivating them, fascinating them so that they continue to stay engaged.
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listening to what you re saying.
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Otherwise, they just tune you out.
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So distraction is the first problem.
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The second problem is competition.
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Everyone s getting better.
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And the problem is, whether it s selling a product or meeting people at a networking event or even going out with somebody new that you haven t met before,
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If you re only 0.06% better than everybody else, then you re going to lose that competitive game.
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I mean, that s kind of a hamster wheel to live on.
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It s not enough to be the best if nobody notices or cares.
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This is a problem that we re facing.
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I m a creative person.
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I love coming up with ideas, but it doesn t matter if I have a world-changing idea if nobody notices or cares or listens or takes action.
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If I can t sell my ideas, I may as well have never had those ideas in the first place.
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threat is commoditization.
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And that s not a word that we think about a lot applied to people.
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A commodity would be a product that s interchangeable with any other product like salt or water or steel.
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But what we found is if you can differentiate yourself in a really effective way, you can earn up to four times more than somebody who has your same level of skill or experience.
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And so there are specific patterns that these high earners have in common.
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And once you understand what those patterns are, then you can replicate them.
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Speaking of standing out, I read that you lived with an African tribe inside a goat dung hut during college, which brings up two questions.
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Where the hell did you go to college?
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Well, actually, my dorm room is probably still dirtier than that, but.
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Maybe a little less crowded and you probably didn t have freshly killed chickens around on the floor, but yeah, I could imagine.
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No, I had worse things on the floor, but you must have stood out a lot as a white lady in Africa with an African tribe inside a goat dung hut.
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I mean, you must have gotten really used to some unusual attention there, I would think.
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Yes, I went to Duke University and a lot of my friends did summers abroad.
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And I decided that I didn t know the word differentiate at the time.
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But if you have experiences that are same as everybody else, it s really hard for you to learn how you can set yourself apart because you re just doing the same treadmill of activities as everyone else.
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So I decided I wanted to go to the most obscure place I could find.
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So I went to the Office of International Studies and I said, send me to the one place that nobody else goes to.
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And it was the University of Nairobi.
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And so I went out on this incredibly remote area that was miles and miles away from civilization, living with this African tribe.
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And I was the first white woman they d ever seen.
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I had a camera with me.
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They had never seen flash photography.
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I had a CD player.
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They had never heard Western music.
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And so what I got out of that experience is that if people aren t empowered to see themselves through education, to understand how they can rise, then they re never going to reach their potential.
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And that s why it s so important for all of us to, first of all, have experiences that nobody else has so that we can see the world more clearly, but also for us to understand we ve got to constantly be feeding ourselves with new ways to rise within an organization.
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And I don t mean that in a competitive way.
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I mean, for us to reach our maximum potential, we have to be feeding our brains and pushing ourselves and challenging ourselves to not just sit on the couch and watch the same shows as everyone else.
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This is something that I think I accidentally discovered early on with study abroad in Germany and then going to places like Panama and Ukraine and Mexico.
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I started to differentiate myself because when I went to Germany, I thought, oh, this is really cool.
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And it was such a massive advantage, I did try to get more and more obscure.
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That s why several years ago I went to North Korea and then I went back.
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It s so different, every time you do something so radically different from what other people are doing, you start to think a little bit differently.
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Like it pokes a little tiny hole in the cardboard box that you might live in, that looks like this little ray of light come through.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I love that.
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It s kind of like Jägermeister experiences, not toxic experiences, but how do you find things that so distinctly stand out?
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Because that s part of the key of being a great conversationalist or being somebody that has a lot of layers so that you can not just attract people, but significantly contribute new thoughts and ideas and emotions to what they re thinking and feeling.
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I mean, that s totally fascinating.
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So that you re not just a two-dimensional cardboard cutout.
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Over the last 17 years, we have launched our fair share of online courses, coaching programs, and finding the right platform has always been a challenge.
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They say if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life.
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But if you re an entrepreneur, you know the hard work that comes with it.
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That s why you need Kajabi.
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Kajabi makes it easy to run your entire online business from one platform so you can focus on what you love.
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Creating.
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Kajabi is the ultimate all-in-one platform that helps creators and entrepreneurs build successful online businesses by unlocking predictable recurring revenue.
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No matter your niche, Kajabi makes it easy to turn your skills, passions, and experiences into enriching online courses, exclusive membership sites, subscription podcasts, thriving communities, personalized coaching, and more.
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The best part?
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Kajabi doesn t cut into your revenue because everything is owned and controlled by you.
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So keep 100% of what you earn.
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And with Kajabi, you also get robust analytics, easy payment options, email marketing tools, and customizable website templates, all built in.
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You don t even need a huge audience to make sustainable income.
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There are thousands of creators on Kajabi making six and seven figures with less than 50,000 followers.
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Right now, Kajabi is offering a free 30-day trial to start your business if you go to kajabi.com slash charm.
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That s K-A-J-A-B-I dot com slash charm.
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Go to Kajabi.com slash charm and join the creators and entrepreneurs who have made over seven billion dollars.
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Hey Art of Charm listeners,
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I m excited to share a new podcast I ve been absolutely binging.
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SPEAKER_00
Winning is an everyday mindset, and Craig Robinson and John Calipari are here to help.
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On Ways to Win podcast, Craig and Coach Cal use their on-court wisdom to solve your off-court problems.
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Whether it s trouble at home or a workplace dilemma, the coaches will help you find a winning formula for success.
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You ll hear from prominent athletes, business leaders, and celebrities who reveal insights that made them into the leaders they are today.
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And don t miss President Obama sharing how he deals with pressure by projecting confidence, believing in your team, and taking criticism.
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Listen to Ways to Win wherever you get your podcasts.
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since you see things with that different little ray of light coming through the box, to beat the metaphor to death, you can start to put connections together that other people will never see, and that you wouldn t have seen, but for those experiences.
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And that can be a huge advantage, or at least it s a real advantage for somebody like me who goes, crap, I m not the smartest person in the room, I m not the quickest on my toes here, I m probably not necessarily gonna be able to outwork these other people working 20 hours a day, what s my competitive advantage?
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you gain a competitive advantage that other people can t get just by going, this weekend I m gonna study some travel stuff about dung huts, right?
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They can t go get that same experience easily enough to grab a hold of your competitive advantage.
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You know, what I love about you described about that is that obscure experiences can help boost your competitive advantage.
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And when we talk about competitive advantage, I think for both of us, we re not talking about kind of battling it out, duking it out with friends or coworkers.
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We re really talking about how do you add such significant value that you get to do more of what you love.
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If you re contributing such a specific benefit that other people can t match you in that one particular area,
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That s how you re going to have more choices, more options, earn more, do more, have a life that s more significant because people are going to listen and take action on what you say.
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It doesn t matter having a great message if nobody s listening.
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It doesn t matter if you re doing something that s significant if it doesn t cause anybody else to take action.
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And so that s really the point here of this whole concept of fascination.
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How do you draw people in?
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That s actually what fascination means.
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It s one of the oldest words in written language.
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It s ancient Latin.
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And the word fascination is originally fascinare.
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This is what sort of started me on this whole journey of studying this over the last 10 years.
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The word fascinare originally meant to bewitch or hold captive so your listener is powerless to resist.
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In other words, if you look it up on Webster s Dictionary, the current definition of it is to spellbind or bewitch, to hypnotize like a snake charmer.
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And that s a really cool concept if you think about that.
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What is the greatest way to earn someone s and keep someone s attention in a meaningful way?
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It s almost like you re holding them captive.
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If you could give a speech
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or a presentation, or introduce yourself, and you could hold your listener captive, almost spellbinding them, bewitching them.
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You can have a much greater connection, because they re falling in love with you, in a sense.
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You wrote on your website, you have this What Sally Believes section, and one of the bullets is, in a competitive environment, the most fascinating option always wins.
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That s kind of a head nod to the competitive advantage thing that we were just discussing as well, is that, I beat this into the listener a lot here, because it s probably one of the chief realizations of my whole life, but trying to play and beat people at their own game is always tough, and when it comes to getting a job or being inside your organization,
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it s always, always harder to play by everyone else s rules and with everyone else s qualifications.
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So that s why we re beating this concept up a little bit, because I really think it s massively, massively important.
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And I think that it s a great advantage for younger people as well, going into an industry, these emails we get for Fan Mail Friday, things like, I m so young compared to everyone here, how am I gonna add value?
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And the answer is not, get five years of experience in the next one year so that everyone thinks you re a prodigy, the answer is,
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Do and take all the weird stuff that you ve done in your life or will do and somehow funnel that into giving value because otherwise you re just the new guy or gal.
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You said it beautifully.
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There s this whole culture in work that s kind of risen up since the mid-80s about find your strengths.
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And the problem with strengths is it puts you in a direct competitive situation with other people where you re trying to outdo them at their own game, like you just said.
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So instead of focusing on your strengths, the way in which you are incrementally better than other people, find the ways in which you re different.
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When you can hone in on that, that s what we discovered about the high performers.
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In the million people that we ve measured inside of companies like Twitter and Porsche, what we learned is the people who are producing the most, they weren t necessarily more senior, they weren t more experienced, they didn t necessarily have better skills.
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What they did have is a specialty.
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For example, like I was describing earlier,
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If they had a specialty in being detail-oriented, they really doubled down on that.
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My specialty is being passionate and being creative.
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So when I work with a client, if I go into the situation thinking, well, this client wants me to be really consistent and predictable and follow a script, then I m not going to be successful.
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I m probably going to have a huge disadvantage over other people.
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I m not going to make a good impression.
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I m going to be totally bummed out.
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It s going to take a huge amount of energy from me.
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It s going to be really exhausting in terms of my intellectual and emotional energy.
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So I only work with people who are looking for exactly what I deliver.
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And within companies, within any type of organization, the same is true for all of us.
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We each have a specialty that s built in, just like great brands do.
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And the key is just to be able to identify that.
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That s the core area of what I ve been studying over this time of looking at fascination.
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How do we make that into a science or the art in science so that people understand exactly what they already do best and then they just double down on that?
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Right, precisely.
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And I think, you even say this in your bullets, the greatest value you can add is to become more of yourself.
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And that s kind of a relief to people who are going, oh my gosh, and having that imposter syndrome.
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It s almost the cure to imposter syndrome, right?
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Well, I m not supposed to be here, I m not the smartest one who s here, and I can t outwork these people, and they re all more intelligent, and they all have more experience.
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Doesn t matter, you just have to be more of yourself.
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That s why you got selected in the first place.
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One of the things that people do that s a huge mistake is we try to water ourselves down so that we can fit in.
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And that s a natural response.
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It s easy to feel self-conscious or even feel insecure, especially when we re in those situations where we got to win the moment.
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The moment when you walk into the room at a really important meeting or the moment when you got to have a difficult discussion with somebody in your family or one of your buddies.
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The problem is that we water ourselves down
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not only are we cheating other people of the chance to see the best of us, to learn from us and be inspired by us, but we re also far less likely to be remembered.
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One of the things that we saw in our research is you don t have to change who you are.
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You have to become more of who you are.
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And so if you think about that to yourself, who are you?
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Who are you at your core?
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And then how do you become more of who you are?
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People are 200% more confident when they understand who they are, when they identify who they are.
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and then they just stay on that track.
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But you probably feel the same way.
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Haven t you ever gone into some sort of a conversation where you really wanted to make a good impression, or you really wanted to have a good outcome, and you felt insecure, so you kind of fumbled?
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Do you know what I mean?
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Sure, of course.
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Yeah, everyone s had that experience.
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Everyone, for sure.
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Yeah, it s a terrible feeling.
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When you don t feel confident physiologically, a lot of things are going on with your body.
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And one of the things that happens is you get a blast of stress hormone.
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Your voice changes.
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Your voice becomes drier.
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It becomes tinnier.
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When you don t feel confident physiologically, your listener feels less confident in you.
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Their stomach clenches.
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They don t realize consciously that it s happening, but they want to back away.
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They feel awkward.
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So they try to shut it down.
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They re feeling awkward for you because they re kind of mirroring your response.
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And that s what happens when we re having a conversation and all of a sudden, the person that we re talking to, they pick up their iPhone and they re obviously tuning you out or they re disagreeing with what you re saying.
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Have you ever had that moment?
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You re trying so hard to kind of say the right thing and do the right thing.
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And then all of a sudden, like you get terrible body language signals or you get exactly the wrong answer.
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You know, your brain goes into high alert.
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You know that feeling?
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Right.
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Like, oh, God, plan B right now.
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What is it?
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Right.
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And then you re kind of scrambling and, you know, people pick up on that.
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So the key is, how are you most likely to make the best impression and add the most value and create a connection, not just kill time with fumbling your way through the conversation, but come to it with that feeling of being confident and in the flow.
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Right.
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We all know this feeling of being confident.
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Do you have those situations when you re working and it s like time flies and you are so in the zone, you know, it s like Michael Jordan soaring towards the basket.
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You re just like, man, I kick ass.
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Do you know what I m talking about?
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That feeling?
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Well, yeah, I mean, the flow state type deal.
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Yeah.
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I mean, almost every day, pretty much every day.
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Yeah, when we tracked how fascinated people are in their work, in other words, how often they get in that flow state with their revenue, the more often you re fascinated in your work, there s a direct rise with your income.
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So it s really important for you to know how to get into that flow state, to have that sense of confidence, whether you re sitting there working on a project by yourself, or you re having a conversation with somebody in the cubicle next to you, or you re doing a big presentation, because it s going to have a direct correlation
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to how successful you are and how impressive and influential you are.
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Especially because if we don t know our own value, nobody else can.
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And so, of course, we can t demonstrate it.
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It sort of seems like a cycle that could really screw us over, right?
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Because if you don t know your own value, nobody else will, so you get slotted in something that s maybe not quite you, so you re working on something that s not in alignment with your strengths, and then you suddenly find yourself going, I thought I would love this job, but I frickin  hate it.
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Yeah, I hate it.
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I m not making a good impression.
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I m not making a difference.
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I m demoralized.
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And what happens is people start to think there s something wrong with them.
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If I have a great meeting with a client or with somebody and it s a great discussion and I ve spent a lot of time working on and a big proposal and I ve flown across the country to meet with them.
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And you know when a meeting goes well and you re kind of high-fiving yourself and you can see that light bulbs have gone off for them, you ve really made a difference in this conversation.
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And then you fly home and all of a sudden the happy bubble bursts because you start talking about logistics and it sort of distracts from this great thing that you ve just accomplished for your team or for someone else.
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So, for example, in my business, one of the ways that I decided to structure my business differently so that I could stop doing the things that felt like quicksand and start doing the things that felt like a wellspring is that I don t want the happy bubble to burst.
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So I stopped doing expense reports because what I was seeing over and over again, I d have this killer interaction and building a relationship with somebody.
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And there was a great future in this connection.
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And then all of a sudden it turned to where s the receipt for your Cinnabon that you had for dinner?
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And, you know, wah-wah, it just goes down the tube.
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Shame on you for having Cinnabon for dinner, too.
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That s just disgusting.
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Well, hey, you know, sometimes when you re a business traveler, you gotta do what you gotta do.
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Oh, man, no judgments.
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No judgments.
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And there are three things that you can do if you re put into a situation in which you have to do something that you hate and that you re not good at and you know are not going to play to your advantages.
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There are three things you can do.
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First thing, you can partner with somebody for whom that is their advantage.
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I know that
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acting in a very predictable way with meticulous follow through, checking every single box, going through the spreadsheets.
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I know that for me, that s going to be quicksand.
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I hate it.
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I m not good at it.
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I m not going to make great relationships by focusing on that.
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But I can partner with people who are good at that.
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So finding somebody on your team who has different advantages is a great way to make sure that you don t have to focus on that because the odds are the stuff that you have a huge disadvantage in trying to accomplish those exact areas, if you can partner with somebody who is good in those areas, the odds are that the stuff that you can do brilliantly is exactly the area that they re not gonna be good at.
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So that first thing is partner with somebody.
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And the second thing you can do is outsource it.
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I m not good at doing dry cleaning, so I send myself to a dry cleaner.
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In the same way, if I m not good at making lists of lists of lists, but I hire a virtual assistant, then it s going to be a good investment for me to not focus on those areas.
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And the third thing that you can do is just delete it.
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Take it off the table.
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like I did with expense reports.
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I knew that that s not gonna be an area in which I can shine, so I just took it off the table.
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We can t always do that in our jobs, but at least for us to know that those are options that we have.
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You can partner with somebody, you can outsource it, or you can delete it.
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Perfect.
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First of all, Jason and I both took this test.
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and I want to show how the results work, and you all out there can take the same test if you go to theartofcharm.com slash hogshead, and the code is charm, and it s free, and of course, you get the whole breakdown and everything.
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I mean, Sally won t be calling you on the phone like we re doing right now, but you will see a really detailed breakdown that comes to you on the website as well as in your email.
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So we took the test.
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I am the victor.
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I had mixed feelings about this, because I was like, oh, that s cool, and it s all good and everything, but I read some of that stuff and I thought,
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Ugh, man, it sounds a little bit, there were areas where I kind of wish maybe it wasn t true.
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I don t necessarily disagree with the results, I just kind of thought, wow, I sound really corporate in a lot of ways with the victor.
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Did it take a long time when you were doing the assessment?
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No, it took like five minutes.
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Because you have a shorter attention span, when I originally created the assessment about five or six years ago, it was the same algorithm, so it was the same measurement system, but it took 30 minutes and it was 156 questions.
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And what we saw was it was the exact same answers over and over again that were giving us data that we needed like a focus group.
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So when you take the assessment, you got an answer that described that you are what s called the victor.
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Think of that like who your personal brand is at your best, because that s how other people see you.
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Victors are really good at being very achievement oriented.
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The three adjectives that describe the victor are respected, competitive, and results oriented.
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That means when you re working on a project, you don t want to sit there and talk about what you could do.
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You want to do it.
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If you re not going to get results, then it s not going to be fulfilling for you.
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Even when things are difficult, even when it s a struggle, you keep your focus on what you need to do.
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It s almost like you understand that what you have to do is one, two, three,
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But your focus is going to be on three instead of on one and two.
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Let s take a look at how other people would view your results.
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One of the things to keep in mind as you re doing the assessment and getting your result is it s not about how you see yourself.
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It s a different perspective.
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It s how do other people see you at your best.
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If you look into a regular mirror, you re going to see your flaws, your imperfections.
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It s easy to feel insecure because you re kind of looking at yourself about what s wrong and what do I need to fix.
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But instead, imagine like this is a mirror where you re not looking in there and seeing what s wrong, you re looking in the mirror and seeing exactly what s right.
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So before you go into a meeting, if you reread, the way in which I am most likely to succeed in this meeting is by tapping into these unique differences that I have.
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And your unique differences, I described that as the victor, meaning for you, it s really important for you to accomplish something.
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You re very comfortable having big goals.
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You like to dig in and focus on
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being ambitious, kind of pushing people outside of their comfort zone, getting people to push to a higher level.
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That s kind of what you do through Art of Charm, right?
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You help people see what are they already doing?
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How do they do more of what they re already doing right?
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So they can push to higher goals and better results.
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Would you agree?
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Yeah, of course.
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I mean, that s at the core of what we do here.
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Yeah.
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So when you take the fascination advantage assessment, the report gives you adjectives that you can use.
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These adjectives are really, really important because these adjectives are almost like the focus group.
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So I ll give you an example.
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I mentioned before, one of the first clients I ever worked on was Nike.
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Nike s mission statement is to empower the athlete in all of us.
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The adjective that describes who Nike is as a brand that consumers are most likely to respond to is the word empowering.
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That s the adjective.
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When I worked on Mini Cooper, it was the adjective that describes how Mini Cooper is different than other cars in the category like Fiat or smart cars is participatory.
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People love to participate with the Mini and they love to go on road trips.
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So now let s take that and apply that to people.
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An adjective, I m gonna give you three adjectives, Jordan, for you to take a look at.
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I m gonna ask you which one of these adjectives best describes how you are different.
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Are you ready for your three adjectives?
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Sure.
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Okay, first one is respected.
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People respect you for the results you achieve.
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So respected.
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The next one is competitive.
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You have a healthy competitive streak.
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You re very comfortable in a situation in which there are a lot of other people who do what you do, but you know how to stand out.
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The third one is results-oriented.
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You don t want to hold people s hand.
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You don t want to kind of dilly dally by having mediocre results.
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So your three adjectives to choose from for your archetype from the assessment are respected, competitive and results oriented.
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Of those three, which one best describes how you re different than other people?
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Jeez, I mean, they all sound kind of generic in a lot of ways.
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Well, let s specialize a little bit.
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Pick one off the top of your head.
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I don t know, respected, I guess.
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A lot of people are results-oriented.
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Too many people are competitive.
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I don t see that as an advantage at all, either.
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So I m kind of like, ugh, I guess respected is the positive one out of all those.
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What s an example of a time when you want to win the moment, an occasion, a scenario, in which you want to go in and you want to be as influential as possible?
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Say when I m speaking on stage, perhaps, to a group of people, entrepreneurs, students, something like that, or a company.
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So what if I said to you, hey, Jordan, don t push people too hard when you re doing this presentation.
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You re going to walk on stage, just kind of keep it low key, you know, encourage people to do what they re already doing and to not push for the next level.
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Yeah, I would just completely ignore your advice.
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I would not listen to you at all.
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Yeah.
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Now, on the other hand, what if I said, listen, we got to push people to have bigger results, better results, better ideas, faster.
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We want to help every person in this room see what they can possibly accomplish for 2017 and have a better outcome for everybody, including themselves.
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How would that feel for you?
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Yeah, that would be great because I would just go, great, I was going to do that anyway.
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Thanks for the advice.
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So.
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OK, so now what if I said to you when you re describing why you should be doing this speech or how you can be empowering people, these students or entrepreneurs, one of the differences that you have from other speakers
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or other people who could potentially be doing this presentation, is that you are going to help push them to the next level.
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Even if you don t use the word respected, that that s a positioning.
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That what your presentation is going to do, the outcome of that, is that you re going to help people understand why they are respected.
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You re going to help them have more
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respected results.
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So the word respected isn t just applying to you, it s applying to what their own result is going to be.
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There are a lot of people who aren t focused on giving other people respected results.
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You know, there are a lot of other people who just want to be entertaining.
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I m a professional full-time speaker.
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I m in the Speaker Hall of Fame.
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So what that means is that I spend a lot of time watching other speakers, and some of them are just trying to be funny.
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Some of them are just trying to be inspirational.
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Some of them are just giving practical information.
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So it s not their goal to be respected.
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It s not their goal to help other people get respected results.
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So it is a differentiator for you in focusing on help other people become more respected.
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SPEAKER_00
If you said to people, by the time I finish this presentation, you are going to respect yourself more, but you re also going to be able to get more respected results.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, this makes sense.
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It s not just I need to be respected or something like that.
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It s I want to help other people achieve that same thing.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s easy for us to take a look at what we re already doing and think, well, that s what everybody does.
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But the reality is there are a lot of things that we re already doing without realizing it that are our specialty, where we re delivering a really specific benefit.
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My dad s a retired orthopedic surgeon, and all he did was correct spines while he was practicing.
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He helped people who were having trouble walking.
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straighten their back.
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He wasn t delivering babies.
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He wasn t doing internal medicine.
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All he did was spines.
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And so as a result, he could really over-deliver in that area.
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It was something that not only gave him great joy, but he could get incredible outcomes for people.
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In the same way, when we look at ourselves objectively, what is the way that we can make the biggest difference for the people that we re talking to, whether it s an audience or a friend?
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And we find ways to intentionally do that.
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You find the projects that allow you to do more of that specialty.
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As a point of difference for me, if I were going into an audience and help people get the same kind of outcome as you, I m less likely to be as distinct in their mind.
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On the other hand, the adjectives that describe me are fascinating communication.
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How can I help other people become more fascinating so that they have more influence?
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They can be more captivating.
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They can get that definition of fascinating that we were talking about earlier, to bewitch or hold captive, say your listener is powerless to resist.
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SPEAKER_01
Yes, these sorts of qualities, they can come across as a little bit of like loaded language or buzzwordy, and I wanna make sure that everybody who takes the test isn t just getting confused or thrown off by that, because even as I was thrown off by the fact that it s not just about the words that you apply to yourself, it s about how you apply these same concepts to other people as well.
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SPEAKER_01
And I think, is it usual, is it normal for people to be uncomfortable with the results of this test a little bit?
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SPEAKER_00
Another way of looking at it is not just uncomfortable, but unfamiliar.
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SPEAKER_00
It feels kind of weird to see yourself the way other people see you.
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SPEAKER_00
It s easy to feel self-conscious or like, is it vain for me to see how other people see me?
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But the key is we re not just measuring how other people see you, we re measuring why they fall in love with you, why they evangelize for you.
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SPEAKER_00
Why do people listen to the art of charm?
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They become part of these advocates that you have.
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So it s how are people most likely to fall in love with you and your message, not just who you are every single moment of the day.
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When you re in that zone and you re playing your A game, how are you being perceived by others?
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SPEAKER_01
And that can be tough to swallow.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, for me, like I said, I just wasn t super comfortable with it.
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SPEAKER_01
Jason got what I think is kind of a neater result than me.
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SPEAKER_01
What did you get, Jason?
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I m the avant-garde, and see, I love my results.
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I think they were so spot on that I m just like, yeah, that s me.
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SPEAKER_02
I dig it.
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SPEAKER_02
I m in.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you have a clearer self-concept than I do.
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SPEAKER_02
Absolutely.
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No, it s, it says that I m a, I m a forward thinking and enterprising leader.
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My creativity makes me an excellent contributor to brainstorming sessions, which is true.
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I always practice planned serendipity.
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I m always reading things.
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I m very well rounded.
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So I use that to use my ideas to be more creative and things to see like the connections between two things.
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And I think a lot of this really kind of nailed it with who I am and what I like to do.
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SPEAKER_00
One of the cool things about avant-gardes is they have really high standards and they re creative.
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SPEAKER_00
So it s not just about being creative for the sake of being creative.
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It s about being creative in ways that are going to move things forward.
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SPEAKER_00
Do you find, Jason, you have a short attention span?
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Absolutely.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
So avant-gardes are always looking at what s next.
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and they get really uncomfortable when the people around them just want to repeat what s been done before.
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SPEAKER_00
So the situations where you re going to be most uncomfortable is when somebody says, hey, let s go back and see what we did last year and then just repeat some of that.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_02
Ain t nobody got time for that.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, ain t nobody got time for that.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, an avant-garde doesn t, but there are other archetypes that do.
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SPEAKER_00
There are archetypes like the mediator.
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The mediator is all about how do we connect people so everybody s happy and everybody has the chance to move forward, but it s not about necessarily pushing to find out what s next.
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SPEAKER_01
So some of my primary personality descriptors were things like rapidly earned respect, we kind of covered that, focus on adding value through better execution, conscientious of the smallest details.
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SPEAKER_01
I think maybe the reason that I wasn t super crazy about this is it sort of sounds like what I was doing as a lawyer, because there was nothing mentioned about creativity, nothing like that.
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SPEAKER_01
So it was kind of a bummer.
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SPEAKER_01
You said examples of leaders who used particular prestige quality, James Bond, Gordon Ramsay, and Princess Di, kind of a nice spread there.
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SPEAKER_01
It just seemed like it was maybe a little bit one dimensional.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, and that s where it becomes your responsibility to see how can you add in other experiences that you have and other ways that you re applying the other five advantages.
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SPEAKER_00
So we talked about prestige and we talked about power.
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Prestige is the language of excellence.
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Power is the language of confidence.
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But you probably also score high in innovation, which is something that Jason and I share.
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We both have secondary innovation.
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You don t want to be doing the same thing over and over again and being predictable.
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So there are some situations where you probably want to ramp up that creativity and you probably want to ramp up your passion or your trust or mystique or any of the other advantages.
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SPEAKER_00
But you don t want to be all things to all people.
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SPEAKER_00
You don t want to water it down so you don t have a specialty.
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SPEAKER_01
Right.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I can t be Princess Jordan 007 for everybody.
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SPEAKER_01
That s right.
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SPEAKER_00
Right.
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Jordan, have you ever had one of those times where you have to describe yourself?
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SPEAKER_00
And it just feels awkward, you know, like your LinkedIn bio.
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SPEAKER_01
I hate it.
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SPEAKER_01
I had my friend Clay A. Bear teach me this six word intro because Jen, my fiance, she said something a few months ago.
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SPEAKER_01
She goes, whenever people ask you what your show s about or what you do, you always do the same thing, which is
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SPEAKER_01
you have this weird look, you change the answer every time, you start wringing your hand sometimes, depending on the circumstances or who s asking, and I was like, I know, because I just don t have a great cookie cutter elevator pitch that works for everything.
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SPEAKER_01
I can elevator pitch the business, but when it comes down to me, it was like, well, you know, this and that, and it sounds wishy-washy and not confident, which is unlike the rest of the ways that I represent Art of Charm, so I had to fix that, and it took a while,
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and we were talking a little bit ago about when you don t feel confident, other people don t feel confident in you.
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SPEAKER_00
So it s really important for you to kind of make it strategic.
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SPEAKER_00
How do you have a system for feeling confident?
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Being able to have that language is so important.
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SPEAKER_00
It s just like a brand has a tagline.
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SPEAKER_00
When I was working on the BMW account, do you remember the longstanding BMW tagline?
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SPEAKER_00
They had it for years?
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SPEAKER_00
No, I don t.
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SPEAKER_00
The ultimate driving machine.
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BMW is the ultimate driving machine.
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SPEAKER_00
So let s just take that as an example.
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You can see that if BMW says who we are at our core at our best is the ultimate driving machine, then it s really easy for you to see what their showroom is going to be like, what their engines are going to be like, who their customer is, who they re going to hire as employees.
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SPEAKER_00
And that s what a tagline does.
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SPEAKER_00
It s like a positioning.
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SPEAKER_00
And everybody can understand that from the customers, the partners, the people in the team, and certainly the marketing department.
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SPEAKER_00
On the other hand, I was part of the team that launched the Mini Cooper when it came from the UK to the United States.
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SPEAKER_00
Mini Cooper had a huge disadvantage because people in the United States didn t know the car.
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SPEAKER_00
It was radically small at the time.
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SPEAKER_00
This was during a period of time when the Hummer was really popular.
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SPEAKER_00
So having a car that small, it was just for a lot of people, it was weird.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it was right during the time when VW was relaunching the Beetle.
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SPEAKER_00
This is about eight or 10 years ago.
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SPEAKER_00
Mini Cooper only had 10% of the budget of the VW Beetle, so everybody thought it was just going to be a big flop.
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SPEAKER_00
One of the key things that Mini Cooper learned was men don t buy women s products, but women will buy products targeted to men.
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SPEAKER_00
So one of the big mistakes the VW Beetle made was they targeted it to men and women, whereas the Mini Cooper just targeted it to men and thereby got the male and female audience.
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SPEAKER_00
So it was really important how the Mini Cooper got positioned.
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SPEAKER_00
And the tagline that Mini Cooper came up with is Let s Motor.
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Ultimate Driving Machine tells you exactly who BMW is.
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BMW owns Mini Cooper, but they use Let s Motor as a way to differentiate itself.
4
SPEAKER_00
So in the same way, let s talk about you and your tagline in your elevator pitch.
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If you just pull the words of what you have in your report and you apply it to that introduction or the LinkedIn profile that s going to describe who you are, then it becomes a lot easier for you to have something that you can repeat and know that you can feel confident in it.
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Victors exceed expectations and they have high standards.
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They play to win.
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They get frustrated when other people don t.
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So imagine if you were to pull words from that, like, I help you play to win by exceeding expectations and being
5
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more of what you already do at your best.
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Is that something that might resonate for you?
5
SPEAKER_01
I think so.
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I think I just view that a lot of the whole play to win as almost a fault.
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SPEAKER_01
So again, yes, I know is how other people see me.
5
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, so it rings true, yes.
5
SPEAKER_01
But do I like it?
5
SPEAKER_01
Not necessarily.
5
SPEAKER_01
How s that?
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, and that s going to be the important thing for you to be able to customize.
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SPEAKER_00
You don t want to have a formula.
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SPEAKER_00
You know, you don t want to follow the same formulas that other people are following, but you can have a starting base.
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SPEAKER_00
So imagine if you re looking at the report as a way for you to kind of pick and choose where I m giving you a few words that aren t necessarily you re going to plagiarize from what I wrote.
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SPEAKER_00
The point is for you to be able to have a north star, like a strategic brief so that you can see here s the direction that I need to go in.
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SPEAKER_00
I need people to know that I m going to help them raise standards or become more respected in their arena.
5
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Jason says that s you to a T. Absolutely.
5
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It is so you to a T. And I think one of your greatest strengths, because we would not be here today if you did not have that magical superpower.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, thank you.
5
SPEAKER_02
I appreciate it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I get flustered when I have to write one of those one-sentence descriptions.
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Who are you in one sentence?
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SPEAKER_00
On your website, when you have to write your about section, you re writing a bio.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know, how do other people see me at my best?
5
SPEAKER_00
If all you have are the basic building blocks for you to be able to describe who you are and who you re not, it s easy to kind of build on that.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ve written two New York Times bestsellers, and I still struggle when I have to do that exercise.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s why it s become so much easier if I can just kind of have five words that I can build on, and that lights the way to what I need to write.
5
SPEAKER_01
Jason, what did you think of your particular results and description?
5
SPEAKER_01
Did it resonate with you, and were you like, hell yeah?
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, it seems like you liked it, but did you disagree or not like anything that cropped up for you?
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SPEAKER_01
Because I found that I was a little bit uncomfortable with the results, which is one of the reasons they were so enlightening, but you just seemed stoked with it.
5
SPEAKER_01
You seemed like, oh great, I love it, bye, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, where are you at?
5
SPEAKER_02
I think one of the things that really isn t me is it talks about my leadership style.
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SPEAKER_02
And I have led, you know, multiple teams over the years because I was always the bridge between technology and design.
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SPEAKER_02
And I would be the one that the board always talked to to keep those teams together.
5
SPEAKER_02
My management style was, oh, I got to manage.
5
SPEAKER_02
Sucks, you know.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m not a good manager and I don t look forward to it.
5
SPEAKER_02
And my style was I got to do this today.
5
SPEAKER_02
So I did it.
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SPEAKER_02
But, you know, the management style that was in my in my report was a little bit more glowing than I think that I actually am, because I don t think I am the greatest leader of peoples.
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SPEAKER_02
But, you know, I got the job done, but it s not something that I really look to as one of my core skills.
5
SPEAKER_00
Everybody s a different kind of leader.
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SPEAKER_00
There s not one right way to lead.
5
SPEAKER_00
And if we try to copy somebody else s leadership style, then that s a drag.
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SPEAKER_00
Avant-garde s lead in an entrepreneurial way.
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SPEAKER_00
So it s not hand-holding, it s not warm and fuzzy, but it s very much about how do we do it?
5
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I think acerbic is how people would say my leadership style is.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s a lot more untraditional.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of like leading through brainstorming, looking at the options, thinking about how can we creatively solve the problem and do it really well, but do it really quickly.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because remember, you have a short attention span.
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SPEAKER_00
You don t wanna look at how things have been done.
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SPEAKER_00
And that s a leadership style that s really effective for entrepreneurial organizations.
5
SPEAKER_00
Phew!
5
SPEAKER_01
Gesundheit.
5
SPEAKER_01
Bless you.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was saying, don t sneeze at your leadership style in your report.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh God, I can t believe I just said that.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we re leaving that in there now.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s you now.
5
SPEAKER_01
That cheesy pun, gal.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like I said, copywriting background.
5
SPEAKER_01
Wow, you just can t turn it off.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s great.
5
SPEAKER_01
But look, I think that there s so much insight to this particular test.
5
SPEAKER_01
The fact that I had like a visceral reaction to slash against some of these different results was really enlightening.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I mean, I can t disagree with most of this, which is,
5
SPEAKER_01
kind of scary, because I thought about it, and I looked at it, and I thought, okay, is this just one of those tests that gives a bunch of generic results that everyone s gonna agree with, like a cold read where it s like, you re very well liked, and everyone s like, oh yeah, that s totally me, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
It wasn t that, because there s a lot of stuff in here that I think a lot of people won t like.
5
SPEAKER_01
Then they have to think about it, and they go, okay, fine.
5
SPEAKER_01
you know, that s me, I ll sort of begrudgingly accept that, and that has more to do, like you said, with the way that other people see them versus the way they see themselves.
5
SPEAKER_01
So it doesn t really matter if you agree, because it could be accurate despite that, especially since we re not always the greatest gauge of how other people see us in the first place.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s well said.
5
SPEAKER_00
The point isn t to give you information that you already know.
5
SPEAKER_00
The point is to shine a new light on the ways in which you re going to succeed.
5
SPEAKER_00
Let s talk about it in the context of dating for a minute.
5
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We ve talked a lot about the workplace.
5
SPEAKER_00
One of the coolest date nights that you can do is you take the assessment and the person that you re seeing or that you re interested in going out with takes the assessment and you trade results and you talk about the ways in which you see that in each other.
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SPEAKER_00
I met my husband in online dating, by the way, and we both score really, really high in innovation.
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SPEAKER_00
My husband s archetype is named the maverick leader.
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SPEAKER_00
So he s really big picture.
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SPEAKER_00
He hates getting in the weeds.
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SPEAKER_00
He doesn t like to manage details.
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SPEAKER_00
We have a problem, though, that he s so good at the big picture and so hating managing the details of his life that he always loses his car keys.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s really common with people who have primary innovation.
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SPEAKER_00
They don t like to keep track of stuff.
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SPEAKER_00
So I could resent him for that, or I can simply have eight pairs of car keys lying around the house.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s something that when you re attracted to somebody and you re really compatible, when you can recognize the way in which you re going to be most likely to have resonance with them,
5
SPEAKER_00
You know, to have one of those conversations where you re both just totally in sync really helps build the relationship.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I know with my husband, we re going to have the best kind of date.
5
SPEAKER_00
If I m really creative, very spontaneous, I don t tell him exactly what we re going to do.
5
SPEAKER_00
I build in a lot of element of excitement and surprise.
5
SPEAKER_00
Whereas for a lot of people, that would be super uncomfortable.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you re dating somebody,
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SPEAKER_00
or even interested in somebody who has primary trust, which is all about predictability, or alert, which is all about details, they re probably not going to respond as well to you being spontaneous and having a surprise.
5
SPEAKER_00
They probably want to set up the date pretty far in advance.
5
SPEAKER_00
They want to kind of know what they re going to do.
5
SPEAKER_00
They want to have a schedule, so they sort of understand it.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s fine, but that s not how I would do it.
5
SPEAKER_00
So understanding how other people want to communicate with you makes it a lot easier to
5
SPEAKER_00
have a successful relationship and kind of fall in love with each other like we were talking about before.
5
SPEAKER_01
This has been really fascinating.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, no pun intended.
5
SPEAKER_01
I wish we had more time to really digest and shred Jason as well.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I guess I m the whipping boy on this one for the most part.
5
SPEAKER_01
But is there anything else you want to convey to the AOC family before we wrap up here?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, one of the coolest things that you can do is show somebody else who they are at their best.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s a great thing to do at a dinner party or if you have a buddy who s kind of struggling at a point in his career or even just putting it out on Facebook.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so a gift that we want to be able to give to this audience of folks who ve been listening here is that they can share the assessment that we re giving to them now because it creates real conversations.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know, too often we have conversations that are just kind of recycling.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s the equivalent of elevator talk or talking about the weather.
5
SPEAKER_00
So helping people see themselves in a new way is pretty cool, like the conversation that we were having.
5
SPEAKER_00
Not just try to play to win, but to understand the ways in which they re different so they can unlearn boring.
5
SPEAKER_00
People don t have to learn how to be fascinating.
5
SPEAKER_00
They just have to unlearn boring.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sally, thank you so much.
5
SPEAKER_01
This has been fascinating.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, I m so glad.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now, did you pay attention past the nine second attention span limit?
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t think so.
5
SPEAKER_01
No, I did.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, it s funny because I do have that attention span issue.
5
SPEAKER_01
It is tough.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m always fighting that.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sally, thank you so much.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s been super interesting.
5
SPEAKER_01
Remember, everybody, you can take the test as well at theartofcharm.com slash hogshead, one word, and the code is charm, as usual.
5
SPEAKER_01
I wanna see some people s results for this.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think it s gonna be really interesting.
5
SPEAKER_01
Let me know what you think of your results if you take the test, whether you agree with it and whether it made you uncomfortable, both of which we just found out today are kind of irrelevant, but I m curious what other people s reactions are to this.
5
SPEAKER_01
And thank you again for your time.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s been super enlightening.
5
SPEAKER_00
Cool, yeah, thanks, you guys.
5
SPEAKER_01
Great stuff there.
5
SPEAKER_01
Taking this test for me was really enlightening in an uncomfortable way, just in case you couldn t tell from this episode of the show.
5
SPEAKER_01
I highly recommend that you do it.
5
SPEAKER_01
You can check that out once again, theartofcharm.com slash hogshead.
5
SPEAKER_01
Really easy to remember, spell, and the test really does take like five minutes.
5
SPEAKER_01
It took me longer to read the report than it did to take the actual test, and it was very interesting.
5
SPEAKER_01
So a great big thank you to Sally for this one.
5
SPEAKER_01
Her book, Fascinate, will also be linked up in the show notes as well for this episode.
5
SPEAKER_01
If you enjoy this, don t forget to thank Sally on Twitter.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ll have that linked in the show notes as well.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I m also on Twitter, at The Art of Charm.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s a great way to get in touch with me and Jason.
5
SPEAKER_01
I got articles going out there, insights, other ways to engage with us on the show, and you can tap the screen of your phone if you re playing this on your phone.
5
SPEAKER_01
Show notes should pop up depending on what podcast app you re using.
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Our boot camps are live program details where we talk and study and show you and drill the crap out of you with all this stuff.
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Those details, bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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It s really cool to see
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how people become a part of the AOC family, the growth they experience over the next months and years is just really nothing short of amazing.
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We run them every week, but we sell out a few months in advance, so if you re thinking about it, just get in touch with us.
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We ll get you some info, you can plan ahead, you can email, call, whatever you need to do to get in touch.
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We ll get you some stuff right away that you can take a look at.
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I also want to encourage you to join our AOC challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge.
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You can also text, if you re here in the States, you can text in, you can text the word charmed, C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
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The challenge is about improving your networking skills, your connection skills, also inspires you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you.
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We ll also email you our Fundamentals Toolbox.
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That s what I mentioned earlier on the show.
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I also do videos with drills and exercises every single week.
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It s designed to make you a better networker and a better connector.
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It s also designed to make you a better thinker.
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That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed, if you re here in the States, to 33444.
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It s for both guys and girls and you can do it from anywhere in the world.
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It s all online, so enjoy that and let me know what you think.
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For full show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show,
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head on over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFilippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor, and the show notes on the website are by Robert Fogarty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is really a referral to someone else, a recommendation to someone else in person, shared on the web, so stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.