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Hey, everybody.
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Up today on the Saster Podcast, we have a very special one on how to build go-to-market efficiency in SMB sales with owners CRO Kyle Norton.
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Kyle has become legendary in this sort of Shopify mafia, go-to-market alum ecosystem, especially up in Toronto.
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And he came into owner probably at a million in revenue.
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And now that it s at tens of millions growing 10% a month,
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He s really done some incredible things.
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I m on the board of the company and his ability to get outbound, to work at scale with SMBs, to ignite growth, to reach restaurants who are their customers, who are hard to reach.
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They re hard to reach in general.
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They don t reach email and more.
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And to really build an incredibly efficient SMB sales engine.
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This was one of the best received workshop Wednesdays we ve done with some great AMA after.
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So I really encourage you all to dig in here.
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Thank you for having me excited to chat with everybody today.
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So I m the CRO of owner.com.
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So we re a series B vertical SAS software business.
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We target mom and pop restaurants.
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So think of like your local pizza spot that you order from on Friday nights.
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That s our ICP.
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I run sales partnerships, customer onboarding, enablement, rev ops, and whatever else hangs on there.
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And been with the company about two years.
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So joined shortly after their series A and I ll talk more about our growth trajectory as a frame up for the content.
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We re going to talk about building efficiency and go to market.
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A little bit about me, I ve been in sales for 16 years, leadership for 15, tech for 10.
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This is my second early stage startup.
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I joined at around 3 million ARR at Owner.
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And previous to this, I ran a quarter billion dollar go-to-market unit at Shopify.
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Being in big companies, small companies, my first startup was enterprise.
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This is SMB.
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I believe in range a la David Epstein from his book called range.
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So I like to do a little bit of everything from a learning and growth perspective.
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And so what I m going to show, what I m going to talk about today.
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is some insights about how you can build better efficiency into your go-to-market motion.
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The title of the deck is about SMB.
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This isn t necessarily SMB-oriented only.
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I ve run mid-market and enterprise teams, a lot of this content.
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is very much applicable there, but we re going to do it through the lens of owner, which is an SMB motion.
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And so there s three topics to focus on.
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So one is the importance of staying focused and how to say no.
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Two is we re going to get into ways to scale that don t include rampant inefficiency.
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And then three, we re going to talk about how to build operational excellence into your organization.
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at different stages in the growth curve.
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You obviously can t manage with the same rigor when you ve got a small handful of reps and you re the CRO direct as the manager versus later stage when you ve got support teams and other layers of leadership.
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But we ll talk about that maturity curve.
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And in terms of audience, so who I m really speaking to here is founders and revenue leaders from companies that are post product market fit.
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So you re winning some non friends of founder deals.
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There s some repeatability, but it s not a system, but you ve got some patterns.
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You as the founder, the revenue leader, revenue exec, have some patterns that look like they re repeatable and you re just endeavoring to, to build that repeatability.
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Everything from that onwards to series BC, potentially beyond is applicable here.
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Okay.
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A little bit about owner.
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Cause this is going to frame up the journey.
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I m going to try to keep this as real world and as practical as possible.
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So we re going to talk about the owner journey.
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And this also helps frame like, why do I feel like I m qualified to speak on this topic?
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In my opinion, it s because I ve done it really wrong.
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I ve made a bunch of the mistakes that I think we ve all made over the last four to six years in this bull market, then Zerp era.
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And now I m starting to learn.
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I ve learned some of those lessons and I ve started to make some of the right decisions in honor.
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And so I joined.
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In June 22, we went from 3 to 6 million in that sort of half year.
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We went 6 to 16 last year.
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We ve strung together a bunch of 10% month over month growth months.
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So we re, we ve just broken through 21 million in ARR in 22 months.
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So more importantly than that, so that s a bit of the growth story.
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We ve done it while consistently improving productivity.
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We ve reduced calc pretty significantly, and we ve operated with a one or a sub one burn multiple, which is really where everybody s trying to get.
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Burn multiple is just for every dollar of revenue you acquire, how much did that cost you?
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And if your burn multiple is two, it takes you $2 to spend to acquire $1 revenue.
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Not a super efficient business.
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If you re 0.5, very efficient, you could probably spend more money.
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So a little bit about the journey.
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I inherited this team with one manager, four reps, and early churn was a massive drag on efficiency.
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So it was definitely like a cleanup and a reboot job.
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I had to exit two of the four AEs within my first, I think, 45 days.
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And we really needed to get our hands on early churn, which is going to be the first topic I touch on.
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So that 2022 was a, just a foundation building year.
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We had to redo how we use Salesforce.
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We replatformed our sales acceleration tool, brought in some new infrastructure.
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There was foundation building.
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In 2023, we grew that team from six to 10 reps, so pretty modest growth.
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And we also built an SDR function.
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We started like a small SDR pilot at the end of 22.
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It was giving us good market feedback.
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And then we grew that function from one and two BDRs to a team of 10 and 12.
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And now we ve got over 20 BDRs.
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And you re like, man, that s a lot of BDRs.
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That must be inefficient.
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It is not.
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And I will tell you how we ve done it.
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And so we grew two and a half X last year while operating in an LTV CAC of four and a half to one.
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And the growth rate was actually better in Q4 2023 than it was in Q1.
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So more efficient growing faster.
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And I m going to walk you through step by step how we got there.
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And then this year, the goal is to find the outskirts of rep capacity.
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I keep thinking that we ve the capacity of what a rep, an AE can handle, and they handle it really well.
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They keep crushing the win rate, stay pretty consistent.
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So this year is all about really finding how much more efficient we can make the AE team now that we ve really nailed the demand gen playbook, especially on XDR.
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Okay.
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So now let s zoom back to 22.
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This is when I started.
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Now that you ve got the story arc, things were not so peachy, but the product crushed with the right customers.
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There was a huge group of people using the platform who got tremendous value.
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We were shipping product fast, but the culprits for a very leaky revenue bucket were.
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bad or no targeting on prospects.
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We were closing a lot of poor fit customers.
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There was a lot of misset expectations from sales and handoff was like sketchy at best.
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And so this led to fairly unsustainable levels of churn of early churn.
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So within the first 90 days, we were losing way too many customers for us to feel like we wanted to put a bunch of money in the top of that funnel.
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And so the first lesson here is about learning to say no.
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And for us, it was about saying no to a lot of customers.
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Culprit number one was deal quality.
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And we had a growth plan and I basically paused on it.
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I said, until we get a churn in a better place, I don t want to add a bunch of reps.
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I don t want to spend a bunch of money in marketing.
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Let s just dial in the economics and get to a sustainable place to feel like the machine was working.
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before we added gas to it.
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And this is the exact mistake that I made six years prior when I was
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was how to sales for my first startup.
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We got early signs that we were closing some deals and reps were now starting to figure things out.
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So we hired a whole bunch of reps.
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We had way less figured out than we thought.
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Then we spent all this time hiring and ramping reps and we weren t spending that time on figuring out how to win with repeatable great economics.
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And so counterintuitively trying to scale made us scale slower.
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And so saying no to growth is one of the important things and focusing on customer quality before you focus on jamming in as much quantity as you can.
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And a lot of this is it has to be data oriented.
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And I ll walk you through that.
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And so to give you a flavor for it, we said no to about 40 percent of prospects who we 15 days prior would have gladly closed one.
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So fun fact, my, the month I took over sales and owner, we did less close wins than the month before I arrived.
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And the month after that, we did even less close wins than that.
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And then I went into a board meeting the next month and felt really good.
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We had cleaned up deal quality.
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The customer quality was way better.
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We started to see good signs.
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Jason Lemkin s on our board and who I ve read and looked up to for a long time.
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And he just, he basically said to me, sounds great.
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None of it s showing up in your revenue number.
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So let me know when that s when that happens.
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And like bit of a terrifying moment for me as the new CRO, but.
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It really reinforced that we had to find a fast path to making sure that the improvements we made on efficiency then showed up in the revenue number, which it did.
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And board meeting number two was a lot better.
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And so let s get into the data.
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So you got to figure out who to say no to.
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And a lot of that is it has to be data oriented.
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And I partnered with our biz ops team to understand what a high quality deal looked like.
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So what were the what was the digital footprint of a high quality customer that then turned into high quality revenue?
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And the guy s name is Jonathan Shankman.
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He s a whiz.
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We could not do this without him.
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He figured out what a customer looked like from their digital profile.
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and built a machine learning scoring mechanism called expected GMV.
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And that indicated based on for us, it was like their review quality, web traffic, their third party marketplace volumes, we sell to restaurants.
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So how many orders they how many reviews they get each month over month on a third party indicates order volume.
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And so we built a tool that then we could point at our, our ecosystem, our TAM of potential prospects.
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And you can see that highlighted on the right-hand side, that red and green chart there.
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So these are the different bands of expected EGMV of expected gross merchandise volume.
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So you ll see when the volume is higher.
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The churn is green.
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It looks really great.
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You would jump money into an SMB business that has that profile, but smaller customers churned at a rate that we didn t like.
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And we basically got rid of all those customers.
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But it made it so now we understood really carefully what made a good customer.
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We understood then the digital footprint of those customers so that we could go find them in demand chain marketing, in outbound.
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And we shifted 100% of our time and energy to those higher quality customers.
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And your sales team might not be super pumped.
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You re taking away a lot of ICP or a lot of TAM in quotes, and it s an education exercise.
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And then it s your job as revenue leader, partnering with your data team, RevOps or whoever to fill their funnels with high quality leads.
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And so this, so learning to say no is, is question number one.
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And I just, I generally say, take on less segments, less customer types, less reps, just do less and just nail one small niche of a, of a market before you hit the gas to scale.
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We always take on too much as revenue leaders.
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Like I think we re in founders too.
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We re all optimists.
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Oh, like we can go, we re crushing an SMB.
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Let s do mid-market.
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We ve got this restaurant, this like takeout restaurant customer.
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Let s do it for dine-in restaurants.
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That s a lot of the time, maybe most of the time, like the wrong move.
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Staying focused for longer is a great way to nail your economics.
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So now that we knew what that customer looked like, we wanna be able to target them.
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So this is big takeaway number two.
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Invest way earlier than you think in prospect data.
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And there s a few folks on the call that I ve had individual conversations about this topic with, and I know how much of an impact it s made on their business.
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This is one of the biggest takeaways from today s session.
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Spend the time figuring out, spend the time figuring out how you can equip your teams with really good prospect data because
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Typically, like a BDR, an outbound BDR, wastes like half their time calling bad leads, like having to do research of their own to enrich the leads that they ve been given.
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And we don t have our BDRs basically do any lead research.
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If they get a lead and it s partially filled out or it doesn t have a mobile phone, mobile phone number, they just punt it back to the Garden of Eden and we resend that through our enrichment flow.
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Because you re basically saying to your BDR team, Hey, just work two and a half days a week.
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That s okay.
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If you give them bad leads and it s that impactful.
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I did this analysis when I got my first head of BDR role at a software company.
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That was enterprise and 40% of their time was basically wasted.
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I did the same analysis to Shopify.
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Less because it was more inbound, but still lots of inefficiency.
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If you can get great prospect data.
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Good things will happen.
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Essentially, if you go from like us from 40% data accuracy because we sell to restaurants, super challenging data market, we went from 40% accuracy to 85% accuracy.
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Your BDR team overnight doing nothing else gets twice as efficient.
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We, we, our BDR team was unsustainably inefficient.
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We would not have scaled it in its original iteration.
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We figured out the data thing and now each BDR ranks out like over 80, over $60,000 in close one ARR every single month.
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So highly efficient.
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And so you just have to triple click on this data strategy.
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There s good providers out there now.
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You can hire somebody internally, hire somebody on contract.
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AI makes this way, way easier, but spend the time on this.
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And so we had a system where we took a, an entire restaurant database, pulled it into our snowflake instance, ran a bunch of web scrapers and enrichment tools.
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filled in a bunch of the data that didn t exist, then we would have, there was a confidence score on it to let us know if we think the data was accurate or not.
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Then we API d into people, data labs to pull up mobile phone record.
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And we did all of this stuff, which now we use a vendor for called data lane, who s incredible.
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And I just can t stress how important this was.
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You like, it s don t bother hiring more than one or two BDRs until you figure out this data piece.
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Cause it just, the economics won t make sense.
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And this is a picture of how that impacted connection rates.
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So the little red purple bar on that top right chart is connect rates.
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And that s the connect rate of when we use this like upgraded enrichment flow.
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So we originally had a 3% call to connect rate.
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So a rep making a hundred calls would talk to three prospects.
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really tough to make that work from a scale perspective.
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And now it s hovering around like 14 to 16% DM call to DMC decision maker connect rate.
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You can definitely scale a team like that.
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Data is your superpower here.
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Spend the time on prospect data.
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It will make everything downstream better because if they re having more customer conversations, they get better faster.
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They put a better results.
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You build a culture of winning.
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The economics are good.
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It s I can t stress it enough.
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Okay.
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So we figured out what a good customer looks like.
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We found the digital footprint.
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We enriched our database like crazy to make our BDRs efficient.
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You can also feed some of that information to the ad platforms, less directly impactful, but possible.
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Now let s fast forward to 2023 and we re, we feel like the economics of this base pilot team work and we want to scale.
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So how do we scale without rampant inefficiency sort of exploding?
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So going back to this topic of focus, less is more.
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We ll talk about the importance of single threaded ownership.
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This is a slightly contrarian take, but something I believe in.
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And then we ll talk about infrastructure.
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I ve talked about this a little bit already.
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We made this mistake at my first startup.
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We had one rep closing a bunch of deals.
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We thought we figured it out.
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And then we hired a bunch of reps and it just wasted our time hiring, wasted our time ramping.
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And we ended up having to lay off like 25% of that team and basically burned like six months, six months chasing our tails.
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And I always, I say frequently to my team, to anybody who will listen to founders I work with slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
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Take on less and go deeper with it and you ll have more success.
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And this is one other point.
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say on this less is more thing, because I think is one of the most common mistakes we make.
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You probably don t need as many reps as you think.
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The way that we, the way that we build our growth models, the financial model is the cell for the number of deals per quarter is always like reps times quota.
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And you re like, that s how many deals come out of it.
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But that s not really how a business works or else you d just keep dumping reps into it.
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Reps can, that math only works.
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when there s the proper pipeline to make those reps successful.
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And so I would say 80% of the time companies that I work with have a pipeline problem and not a rep capacity problem.
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And in fact, if you just do the calendar test, this is something that Sam Blahn talks a lot about who was a early EchoSign guy.
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So I m assuming got it from Jason, but just look at your reps calendars.
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And if they don t have three or four customer facing meetings on their calendar every single day of the week,
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You don t need more reps.
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And I bet if we all looked at our reps calendars today, it d be like two, one to three.
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You have a pipeline problem.
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It seems counterintuitive to have double the number of BDRs to AEs, but the BDRs are half as expensive and you have a pipeline problem.
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So it s in my opinion, better to just go spend the money on building more opportunity volume for your team than expanding rep headcount.
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This is a massively common mistake.
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You re also better to have less reps and pay more for them in my opinion.
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Just get better reps.
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Take your budget.
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You had six allocated.
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Only hire four, give them more pipeline and hire better reps.
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Pay it, pay a little bit higher in the market.
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I think that works out pretty nice.
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We had this experience at Owner.
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We paid way above SMB market.
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I went and got to hire.
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only top 5% Presidents Club performers from all over the place because they re like, wow, there s 30 grand more than I m making today and everybody s hitting quota.
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This sounds like a sweet deal.
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It s expensive in quotes, but those reps are way more productive and way more impactful for a business than hiring more, slightly less qualified reps.
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All right.
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So topic number two under scaling smart.
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I think sales, I think single-threaded ownership is really smart for SaaS companies.
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You re seeing it more and more.
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And what I mean by this is having your sales leader own post-sales.
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And I could do probably like a 20 minute talk on just this, on just this issue.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s hard for sales leaders to think beyond the thing that they re targeted on and paid for.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so I ve seen this multiple times in my own experience.
2
SPEAKER_00
When I inherit post-sales teams, I m automatically way more interested in making sure those post-sales teams work really well.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m way more concerned about the quality of deals that go from sales to onboarding or launch.
2
SPEAKER_00
We made this decision in October 2023, and we saw an immediate improvement in deal quality, immediate improvement in rep responsiveness, collaboration.
2
SPEAKER_00
It really starts from the manager down.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you bring the managers into much closer contact, the managers and the launch managers, or if you re in a smaller company.
2
SPEAKER_00
all of those people being in one channel at the IC level, things just start to resolve themselves because you build a more human connection and people inherently want to take care of each other.
2
SPEAKER_00
And this is a great way to drive that shared objective.
2
SPEAKER_00
This also makes the customer problem, your sales leaders problem, which means there s no more finger pointing.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s really valuable.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I m a big believer in single threaded ownership.
2
SPEAKER_00
Make your post sales problems, your sales leaders problem somehow.
2
SPEAKER_00
All right.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m going to move on from this topic.
2
SPEAKER_00
All right.
2
SPEAKER_00
So now you ve got the basics here.
2
SPEAKER_00
You ve got the basics of economics.
2
SPEAKER_00
That makes sense.
2
SPEAKER_00
You ve got some replicability in your BDR motion or your pipe gen motion.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now you got to get busy on infrastructure.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so the two goats in this picture that refer to my director of rev ops and my director of enablement, they re like the engine of our business.
2
SPEAKER_00
Steve, who runs rev ops has been with me for eight years.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is our third stint together, which goes to show like my reliance on him and finding budget for this can be challenging.
2
SPEAKER_00
Cause you re like, man, this is a big cost to layer on top of like only four reps.
2
SPEAKER_00
But you want to have these problems figured out before you hit the gas because those inefficiencies as you add reps just stack and stack.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I encourage people to find creative ways to solve this problem.
2
SPEAKER_00
So for us, it was about hiring these two leaders on contract.
2
SPEAKER_00
So they were both from in my network.
2
SPEAKER_00
I could do it with a lot of trust and they started doing contract work with us like 10 hours a week and 15 and 20 until the team was big enough.
2
SPEAKER_00
And our ARR run rate was big enough to afford them without it blowing up CAC.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think this is a smart move.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you can find really high quality fractional folks in this area, it will make a night and day difference on your team because you want to have a bunch of this stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
figure it out before you hit the gas or else it just becomes chaos.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so the only takeaway here is likely hire and invest in RevOps and enablement earlier than you think.
2
SPEAKER_00
Buy it off the shelf, find contract help, but try to find a way to do this would be my advice here.
2
SPEAKER_00
And these will be two of the most important hires you make for sure.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now we re going to go into pillar number three.
2
SPEAKER_00
We re fast forwarding to late Q2, 2023.
2
SPEAKER_00
We ve built a bunch of these foundations.
2
SPEAKER_00
We ve got some repeatability.
2
SPEAKER_00
We ve got some good systems and technology in place.
2
SPEAKER_00
So now I want to talk about how to operate the team with slightly more scale.
2
SPEAKER_00
with rigor.
2
SPEAKER_00
And as your team gets bigger and as there s more managers between you and the team, if you re the founder or the revenue leader, things are just going to start to leak and break down because it s harder to communicate.
2
SPEAKER_00
The feedback loop isn t as tight.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you need instruments in the business to make sure that things can move really smoothly.
2
SPEAKER_00
So there s three tools here that I m going to talk about the monthly business review.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m going to advocate for a very tight performance management.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I want to talk about my love for documentation.
2
SPEAKER_00
These are very boring topics and incredibly critical in my opinion, and don t need to be super complicated.
2
SPEAKER_00
And if you re taking advantage of these three things, like you re really getting the Pareto principle of the high impact stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then all the fancy operating rigor downstream of it is important.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if you can do these three things, you ll be in a pretty good spot.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is like a screenshot of the MBR template.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you guys want this template, I ll publish it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ll just strip it out in our Notion and publish a copy for folks to use.
2
SPEAKER_00
Each team has a section.
2
SPEAKER_00
The manager, there s like a prompt in each section, as you can see in the right hand section that the managers of those teams fill out.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then the RevOps team is in charge of supplementing, of providing the data and charting for everybody to use.
2
SPEAKER_00
So this is a forcing function that happens every single month.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s within four days of the month closing, depending on when the month closes to pause and think structurally about your business.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s really hard to get out of the weeds and view things from a wider scope unless you put this into your calendar.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so you spend a few hours on it thinking about.
2
SPEAKER_00
operations strategy, like inspecting the data really closely and everything gets more clear in my time.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the prep work is key here.
2
SPEAKER_00
So we re a remote company.
2
SPEAKER_00
Uh, and so asynchronous, we strive to be asynchronous and a lot, but I actually think this is a framework that works for all companies.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I ll give you like a little bit of a framework for prep.
2
SPEAKER_00
So one, you gotta have, you gotta have your template.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can use mine.
2
SPEAKER_00
You could use a slimmed down version, depending on your level of like size and sophistication, but just decide as a group, what are the most important questions you want to answer every single month?
2
SPEAKER_00
What s churning and why is it churning?
2
SPEAKER_00
What s the rep performance and what s the stack rank look like?
2
SPEAKER_00
What are just like the key questions.
2
SPEAKER_00
And as you get bigger and the business is more complex, you will over time, add more and more to this, but.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sitting down and agreeing to the framework is number one.
2
SPEAKER_00
Number two, RevOps populates this data for everybody.
2
SPEAKER_00
We try to have that done two days before the meeting.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then the leaders of each of those teams, first or second lines, will answer the questions that you ve framed out based on that framework and based on the information RevOps has published.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then everybody has like a 60 for me, it s a 90 minute block in the calendar before the MBR to review the deck and all the comments.
2
SPEAKER_00
So everybody goes in and reads every other section of this MBR deck.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s a, it s a notion page.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then people use comments to ask questions, talk about things that they see as opportunities.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then what we re talking about in the MBR meeting, cause it s a very expensive meeting.
2
SPEAKER_00
You have a bunch of senior leaders, everybody has to get on
3
SPEAKER_00
one call, we only pull out the most important discussion topics.
3
SPEAKER_00
Do not read the deck in MBR.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is like the old way of doing it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Revops builds a deck.
3
SPEAKER_00
They spend 60 minutes flipping through the deck, telling people things.
3
SPEAKER_00
You don t ingest the data as much as, as much as you should to make or to have thoughtful discussions in my opinion.
3
SPEAKER_00
So this free rep process where.
3
SPEAKER_00
RevUps populated, managers answer questions, everybody reviews, then pull out the discussion topics.
3
SPEAKER_00
That flow will allow you to get a lot more insight.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it also makes it so that people who are not as brave or as extroverted in that synchronous meeting also have a chance to provide thoughtful, thoughtful impact or thoughtful feedback because they re doing it asynchronously.
3
SPEAKER_00
And again, if you want the template,
3
SPEAKER_00
Actually don t email me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ll just send it out.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was going to say email me and I ll send it, but I ll just do a public notion page and you guys can grab it if you want.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
So now that we ve got our MBR process, let s talk about performance management.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is another really important efficiency driver.
3
SPEAKER_00
So this is part of MBR.
3
SPEAKER_00
In MBR, every function gets a stack rank that looks something like this.
3
SPEAKER_00
It could be, this is like a simple version, but you could have your win rates, your close one attainment.
3
SPEAKER_00
You could have deal quality as a part of your AE framework.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is like an, this is a.
3
SPEAKER_00
An older one, it s a simple one, but it s important that you have the rhythm that you re looking at a stack rank consistently, because especially as a small company, as any company.
3
SPEAKER_00
The cost of mediocre talent is very high, especially in this market because you re giving them valuable leads.
3
SPEAKER_00
Salespeople are very expensive.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so the, and there s a cultural impact to letting mediocre performers hang around.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you have to maintain excellence in order to drive a highly efficient growth.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you need to manage our bottom performers pretty consistently.
3
SPEAKER_00
Even if they re doing okay, if people are only okay, but they show up in the bottom of your stack rank, you just got to move them out because the talent market is really good right now for startups.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s a lot of, there s less companies competing for talent, so you can probably go replace that person with somebody better.
3
SPEAKER_00
And for us, it s like the cost of entry to being a part of the owner team is excellence.
3
SPEAKER_00
The standard is the highest performance.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I d encourage people to like pretty tightly performance manage.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s uncomfortable to do, but you got to find the rigor and doing it dispassionately in this MBR is a good way to do that.
3
SPEAKER_00
All right, last thing, I m going way too long.
3
SPEAKER_00
So documentation is a pillar for scale.
3
SPEAKER_00
I love documentation.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s a great way to force really clear thinking for me as a revenue leader.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it also publishes all of this information so that people can get answers without a bunch of annoying slacks and questions and slowing people down.
3
SPEAKER_00
Great documentation will let you onboard folks way faster.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s really challenging to find the time to do this, but just force yourself to do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Put in like a calendar block for an hour or two hours a week and just make this your documentation time.
3
SPEAKER_00
Could be how-to guides, a training framework, could be content that your reps can give to
3
SPEAKER_00
The market, the best, the only thing I ll mention here is my favorite track that I used significantly before I had rev ops or before I had an enablement team and folks helping.
3
SPEAKER_00
I would do one-on-one trainings with reps and so cold calling.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I would go through my cold calling framework.
3
SPEAKER_00
I had really crappy notes for it, flip through a couple of slides, and then I would take the recording.
3
SPEAKER_00
of that training, I would pull out my part of the transcript.
3
SPEAKER_00
You can use any transcription tool, but pull out my part of the transcript, dump it into chat GPT and just say, this is the recording from a training exercise.
3
SPEAKER_00
Turn it into a how to document, turn it into a training guide.
3
SPEAKER_00
And your your prompt can be that vague and it will still work.
3
SPEAKER_00
You ll have to do a cleanup, but I can, I could produce content at probably like two to four X the speed doing this.
3
SPEAKER_00
Cause it s easy to talk and just like riff, especially as a salesperson, you re used to just like talking.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you can just riff or I do this on my phone, like on the Peloton, I ll just riff on a topic, drop that transcript into chat GPT, have a clean it up for me.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then that becomes a training training page.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just find a way to document.
3
SPEAKER_00
virtual assistants, like whatever, just document at all.
3
SPEAKER_00
It ll give you some, it ll give you scaling superpowers.
3
SPEAKER_00
All right, those are the three pillars.
3
SPEAKER_00
One more bonus tip for the revenue leaders.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you want to make the leap to being like mediocre to great, you have to build P&L fluency.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s the like massive missing ingredient for revenue leaders today.
3
SPEAKER_00
You need to be able to focus and think outside of just your like close one number and founders need to hire for it and coach it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if your head of rev doesn t have this today, you got to find a way to give them exposure to it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Obviously Sasser has like a whack load of really good content on this.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is how I learned in my early days.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now there s way more courses out there that are great.
3
SPEAKER_00
Pavilion is the one that I send my folks to revenue architecture school is I have a manager of mine in it and he like knows how SAS works now and he like really understands how this thing functions.
3
SPEAKER_00
So CRO school, revenue architecture school, pavilion, I would highly recommend those courses.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if you re having frustrating conversations with your revenue leader and they don t get it, send them down this path.
3
SPEAKER_00
They got to be P and L fluent.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
That is all I had for content.
3
SPEAKER_00
We learned about how to stay know the power of focus, some lessons on scaling smart, the importance of data infrastructure, single my opinions on single threaded ownership and some light frameworks to operating with excellence on that growth curve.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know that was a crap load of content, but.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let s Jason, before we get to the others.
3
SPEAKER_01
Hey, thanks for doing this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no problem.
3
SPEAKER_01
Owner is doing well.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s well-funded, but we are, as you highlighted to us, we re in an era of more efficiency.
3
SPEAKER_01
So for someone that s even an outlier, how are you thinking?
3
SPEAKER_01
Are you thinking any differently about.
3
SPEAKER_01
quotas, comp, what percent of the, of how payment works.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let me step back.
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe I m rambling.
3
SPEAKER_01
Are you thinking any differently about sales rep compensation specifically in this environment than in the past?
3
SPEAKER_01
Any new insights or learnings on compensation?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I ratcheted back our sales comp.
3
SPEAKER_00
Over my sort of 22 months here, we just wanted to pay for the best talent we could upfront.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re dropping into a very ambiguous, challenging market in an early stage startup.
3
SPEAKER_00
As you build more and more structure, comp should match sort of the complexity of that role.
3
SPEAKER_00
We ve got scripts and playbooks and training and people you can learn from now, and the product is so proven.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so we re finding more efficiency by right-sizing comp.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s a lot of commerce.
3
SPEAKER_00
I haven t changed comp significantly in the last six or nine months, but we re thinking about how do we tie the rep to the customer outcome more tying them to the size of the customer through that scoring model.
3
SPEAKER_00
I talked about EGMV.
3
SPEAKER_00
The activation rate should probably be a part of that model.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to overcomplicate rep comp.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s not what I meant.
3
SPEAKER_01
No, maybe I think it s always a question everyone s fascinated with is comp, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe a different, a more strategic way to think about it is, and it goes to your earlier point about and Sam Bond s point about slightly fewer reps doing better, higher performing, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you have higher expectations for attainment, for yield, for bookings per rep in the current world?
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you?
3
SPEAKER_01
Owner has a decent ACV, but it s still selling to SMBs, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
So in the old days, we aimed for 3X would be a nice place to skate to.
3
SPEAKER_01
In the old days, an SMB rep really didn t make much, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes they still don t.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we d hope they d bring in 3X.
3
SPEAKER_01
Are you driving that up in any ways or how are you thinking about that, that metric in terms of the efficacy or attainment?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I mentioned in one of the first slides, 2024 is really about making the reps beg for mercy is the joke that I say internally.
3
SPEAKER_00
So like how far can we take rep capacity this year?
3
SPEAKER_00
And so we ve been pretty modest in adding AEs.
3
SPEAKER_00
We ve basically doubled the BDR team.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I m actually reworking our growth model as we speak, based on new conversion rates and attainment and really trying to find the balance point.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, it seems crazy to have two BDRs for every AE in an SMB business.
3
SPEAKER_00
But if your BDRs are generating six to 10 to 12 close win deals cold every single month, because we figured out the data piece, it s a compelling product, then
3
SPEAKER_00
It s counterintuitive.
3
SPEAKER_00
It might feel weird, but it, that makes total sense.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no, I want to lay other questions for what it s worth.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t think it s unusual.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think some of it s market dependent, but actually some of it s the skillset of the sales team.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve two for one.
3
SPEAKER_01
There was a moment.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m dating myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_01
There was a moment where outbound had its second coming.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe I don t know, 2016, 2015, early sales acceleration days.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then actually a lot of
4
SPEAKER_00
of folks did the two-to-one model because outbound seemed to work for everybody.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Outbound.
4
SPEAKER_00
And now you actually have to be quite good at it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
For the most part in 2024, but it wasn t unusual.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then I would talk to different leaders that were great like you and they, and some of them had none.
4
SPEAKER_00
Some of them, it was like you would share an SDR, but two-to-one may sound crazy, but I think if you re good at, if you re truly good at outbound, which is harder today, like you are, two-to-one is a great place to skate to.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right.
4
SPEAKER_00
Don t be scared if it s if it works, don t be scared of it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so we ve more than doubled per month bookings, like aggregate per month bookings.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the size of the team has basically stayed constant.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s because rep productivity has increased through training and the enablement and then better, better pipeline going to them.
4
SPEAKER_01
We re trying to automate away as much of the road sort of manual admin tasks.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now, I gave a shout out to Momentum earlier on the call.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s a tool we re using for it.
4
SPEAKER_01
So.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
And in my model, the per rep attainment has gone up.
4
SPEAKER_01
The newly revised model, the per rep attainment has gone up in every single segment because we re seeing it s possible and we re seeing the reps get better and better and productivity keep growing.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I m bullish on it.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t know what the limits of capacity is.
4
SPEAKER_01
We have to find out.
4
SPEAKER_01
I thought I knew and the reps keep keeping up.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you really can get to a two call close or 1.5 call close and you have a high energy team, you can be surprised what the ceiling is.
4
SPEAKER_01
Helps have a good product and a compelling problem to solve.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Did you do this type of outbound at Shopify?
4
SPEAKER_00
Did you learn it on the fly at owner?
4
SPEAKER_00
How did you get, let s assume, let s stipulate you re good at it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_00
But a lot of folks aren t and a lot of founders and VP of sales.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re either there was a whole thread on LinkedIn this week about outbound not working from Mark from outreach, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
One of 10,000 threads on outbound.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it doesn t work, but, but, but I don t quite agree with that.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you don t agree with that either, but you don t disagree with it.
4
SPEAKER_00
How did you get good at it?
4
SPEAKER_00
Did you learn it?
4
SPEAKER_00
Did you screw it up at owner for the first 12 months?
4
SPEAKER_00
What s the learning?
4
SPEAKER_00
What s that process to get good, good at outbound.
4
SPEAKER_01
we got good at it at league.
4
SPEAKER_01
That was probably the thing we did.
4
SPEAKER_01
So my first role in tech was in soft in the software industry was to run global BDR for a enterprise company.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so we, I think I like five X per BDR output because I eliminated all the like silly activity.
4
SPEAKER_01
We got super targeted on ICP.
4
SPEAKER_01
I rebuilt, I love, I come from a boiler room.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I think that s why I m good at it.
4
SPEAKER_01
I come
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s a good insight.
4
SPEAKER_01
You came from a boiler room, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like my first job, I had a phone, a stack of paper leads in a pitch book on my desk and emailing was for bad words, emailings for like sissies.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so that s how I learned to sell.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so I think that s been with me and in the super structured nature of that cold call, that, that boiler room.
4
SPEAKER_01
I, people don t like to be scripted.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re like, Oh, I don t need to just read off a script.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m not some like phone monkey.
4
SPEAKER_01
No, scripting is awesome.
4
SPEAKER_01
Scripting is like the most powerful thing you could do.
4
SPEAKER_01
So just thinking about it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Hey, Jeff.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Scripting is I think really critical and the more tightly you can get people onto what we call golden script, the better they ll perform because then you can smartly AB test what s working, what s not.
4
SPEAKER_01
Do you think learnable?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s the last question I ll have.
4
SPEAKER_00
I could spend the whole time on questions on this.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think it s very interesting.
4
SPEAKER_00
Generally speaking, there s always exceptions.
4
SPEAKER_00
You started off in a boiler room, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
And I think so many revenue leaders I know that are good at outbound started off door to door in a boiler room with the yellow pages.
4
SPEAKER_00
Generally speaking, the founders are trying to make a bet, generally speaking.
4
SPEAKER_00
Can you learn it late in life?
4
SPEAKER_00
Learn outbound?
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that s a good question.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you ve grown up and you ve been great at wherever, primarily an inbound model, can you learn it as your first
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VP of sales or CRO gig, or is it almost hopeless?
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I wouldn t say hopeless, but I would say it s not very likely if you want to run an app, if you want to run an outbound model and you ve got a VP of sales who has been in 80% inbound models, it is.
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Because for them to be, to, for that person to really grok outbound, you have to do it.
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And I know you ve talked a lot about VPs of sales, not wanting to get in front of customers and they re afraid to go and pitch.
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I I m very strong agreement on that.
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And so they re not going to pick up the phone and make cold calls.
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They re not going to figure it out themselves.
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So I never say never, but I just hired a VP of sales.
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Whose first job was door knocking, selling solar at Tesla solar cities.
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I like those ones.
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I m a believer.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You ll like Brett.
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All right.
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Let s some other questions and thanks for those insights.
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Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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Thanks Jason.
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Thank you, Jason.
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That covered a lot of the questions, actually.
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Thank you so much.
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Great, great week this week.
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Great content, great interaction.
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So thanks, everyone, for joining.
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And of course, a big thank you to Kyle for sharing all these insights and tips.
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Thanks again, Kyle.
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Thanks for having me.
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This episode is sponsored by our friends at Pendo, the all-in-one product experience platform.
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