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This is The Art of Charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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The Art of Charm is where ordinary guys become extraordinary men.
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Welcome to The Art of Charm, I m Jordan Harbinger.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work, and in this case, in the SAC and your relationship.
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packing decades of research, testing, and tough lessons into a curriculum.
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There we ve got our Fundamentals Toolkit that covers topics like body language, non-verbal communication, dating, attraction, persuasion, business networking, public speaking, negotiation, and a whole lot more.
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In fact, we ve got people from all over the world, which shows that no matter where you are, you can make it here if you re committed to learning and growing.
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Get some info from us now so you can plan ahead.
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Looking forward to meeting you here at AOC.
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Today we re talking with Dr. Chris Donahue, certified sex therapist and sexologist.
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We re gonna talk about the difference between those two a little bit later on during the show.
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This episode is not safe for work.
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A few times we get a bit detailed about these topics, namely sex and masturbation, so if you re not cool with that, and you re not cool with TMI, then move along to another episode.
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We got plenty.
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Cultures that embrace sexuality have lower rates of teen pregnancy and STDs.
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We re also gonna talk about why cultures that embrace porn have lower rates of sex crimes and how there s no right way to have an erection.
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All this and a few more sorted topics on this episode of AOC.
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Tell us what you do in one sentence, because I want to deconstruct this, because we don t hear this a lot.
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Yeah, okay, so I guess the one sentence is that I m a sexologist and a sex therapist.
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What is a sexologist versus a sex therapist?
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Yeah, that s a good question.
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So a sexologist is someone who has pretty much dedicated their entire career to focusing on the science of sex, the cultural anthropology of sex, the sociality of sex.
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It s someone who studies sex.
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Is that a subdivision of anthropology or something?
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No, it s its own domain and concentration, and there s a few schools that you can study that at.
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I mean, you know, it s not a very popular thing to study.
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I was going to say, enrollment is through the roof.
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Yeah, a lot of people don t tell their parents, I want you to send me to college, I want to study sex, please pay for this.
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Yeah, so they re like, I m studying.
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I m surprised they don t make it a subset of anthropology, just so people are like, I m studying anthropology, mom.
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It s all good.
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Yeah, that would be a good defense.
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No, you have to own it.
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If you re going to do this, we make you own it.
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Right, you have like t-shirts and things that say sexology department.
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Well, close.
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There s a lot of t-shirts out there.
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One of the big popular ones is called Sex Geeks, and so there ll be people that have shirts that say I m a sex geek.
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Right, wow.
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And in order to do that, you have to have a button-down shirt with tattoo sleeves, or something also uniquely that marks you as a cool academic, right?
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Yeah, well, you know, I started my life as a radical, getting tattooed at like 15 and 16, you know, definitely in the New York City rock and roll scene, and that s kind of what s driven my work.
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My work has an activist component.
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I ve always been an ass kicker, so.
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What kind of activism are we talking about?
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Sexology, activism, this is a great combination.
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It is it is it s a dangerous combination.
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So I guess my work has evolved to a place where I am always working to really normalize sex and make it something that we re more comfortable talking about and thinking about and encountering in different ways and just moving people towards that because It s one of those things where you re gonna lower your voice at Whole Foods when talking about it.
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We edited out of television We re just not comfortable with it
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That s because this is America.
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They don t edit it out of any other nation s, well, in Europe they don t do it.
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I shouldn t say any other nation.
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But shit, Saudi Arabia doesn t even have movie theaters from what I understand.
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Literally.
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We re doing a little better in some areas.
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I think that s one of the last humps we have to get over.
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And I think once we get there, we ll be in a much more peaceful place for sure.
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You know, it s funny that this kind of creeps up, because I was serious.
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Saudi Arabia apparently doesn t have movie theaters, or at least, like, even in big cities, no one does it.
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And I asked one of my friends, she s Saudi, she now lives in America, I said, why don t you have movie theaters?
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Thinking, it must be because they re so conservative.
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And she goes, it s just not a popular thing to do.
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And I just can t believe that.
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It was so comical to me, I was thinking, that s just delusional.
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Of course it s because there s this massive conservative thing going on,
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You know, going to see movies is not a – it s just not a thing that they do for probably that reason, which is an assumption on my part to be fair.
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But we as Americans, we kind of assume, well, sex is a taboo thing and it s private and blah, blah, blah.
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But really other countries, they don t think about it that way at all.
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So we manufacture these constraints on ourselves and then since just seeing that our whole life, we kind of go, oh no, it s like that.
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Let s go even further.
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Not only are we scared of it and keep it quiet, but we see it as dangerous where other cultures understand that a natural stage of social development involves sex.
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They train their youth around how to respect it, how to encounter it, kind of like maybe wine in other countries where people drink at younger ages and they get comfortable with it.
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In America, it s something to protect everyone from.
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Delay it as much as possible.
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Don t have it unless you have to.
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We re always talking about the downsides.
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That s actually really kind of funny.
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When trying to get booked at different universities to speak, when they think I m going to come in and talk about the dangers of porn and how to be careful around sex, they re on board.
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But when I tell them, no, I want to talk about the beauty of sex and the health of sex and why it s important to have it, no one s going to book you.
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Right, yeah, things get dry.
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Right, definitely, I can see that.
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And I don t want to make it a history lesson, I assume that comes from sort of puritanical, historical, yada yada.
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I remember when I was an exchange student in Germany, there were other people from other parts of the world, and there were these girls from Iceland and Sweden, and they were like, why are Americans so conservative about sex?
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And I was like, we re not, you know, I m an American guy, I love having sex, totally a virgin, right, at this point in time.
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And they re like because when I was 13 me and my friends we d have parties and our parents would like be upstairs And we d be downstairs like everybody s doing I m like 13.
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I remember getting offended and just being like oh my god.
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That s terrible and That shows the programming because even at age 17 when you re do you would cut off any part of your body except for one in order to have the opportunity to have sex you know I m still finding myself kind of being like oh
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Oh man, that doesn t seem safe.
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Kids are doing this and yet I would be surprised.
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I m sure you ve looked at this at some point, maybe you don t remember, but I wonder what teen pregnancy rates and things are like that in countries where they do it so early that it s not special anymore.
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Oh yeah, it s far lower and that s what s interesting is so in our sex phobic culture where we teach abstinence only sex education, we have higher rates of STDs, higher rates of unwanted and teen pregnancy cultures where they re allowed to see it on television, they re allowed to talk about it, they learn how to talk about it because they talk about it and they re able to set boundaries and ask important questions and they have lower rates of all of that.
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When I lived in Germany back in, this is 1997, 1998, something like that.
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I should probably look that up, because I tell these stories a lot.
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I was staying over at my friend s house, and there were girls there.
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It was like a party, and I had to call my host parents, because I was staying with a host family over there, and I was basically like one of their kids for this year.
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Like my host father answered, I was like, yeah, I m gonna stay over at my friend s house.
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And he s like, cool, where are you?
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And I m like, uh, and I didn t want to lie and like ruin my relationship with these people.
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So I was like, uh, her name is Maria, but there s a lot of other people there and there s a lot of boys here and it s fine.
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And they re all staying.
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And he s like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Use a condom.
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See you tomorrow.
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And he hung up.
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And I thought.
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I m in so much trouble when I go home.
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First of all, I thought that was incredibly cool, but then I thought, I am dead when I get home.
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I mean, he s trying to be cool now, but he s not, you know, this isn t gonna be cool.
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And I show up, and he was really, like, there was no mention of it, but not in that awkward way.
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It just wasn t a thing.
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And then a couple weeks later, we re eating dinner as a family, and we turn on the TV, and like, basically porn comes on.
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Not basically, porn comes on, because we re eating a late dinner, and my host mother turns to my host father and goes, how come I never scream like that, Jorg?
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What s the problem?
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And I just turned beet red and had to like leave.
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You know, it s like this kid could not deal with it.
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And my little host brother, who was 15, just starts laughing and is like, oh yeah, they always do that stuff.
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Yeah, it s a little trick they like to play on us Americans.
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No, yeah, and that s the beauty of it is that they re not afraid to acknowledge that it exists and that it s going to happen.
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And that s seriously one of the problems, you know, another interesting topic is pornography.
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The same thing applies cultures that are more comfortable and supportive of pornography have lower sex
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crimes as well.
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Countries that are anti-porn have higher sex crimes, and it s probably a similar correlation and causation where if you have outlets to sexuality and you understand how to speak and ask for what you want and you re allowed to have it, you re going to have a better relationship with it.
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That s interesting.
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Does that sort of parallel
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and we re treading in dangerous waters here, but does that sort of parallel the legalization of drugs types of arguments and things like that?
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Yes, yeah, for sure, for sure.
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You know, again, we live in a culture where drugs are illegal.
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Were it to become legal overnight, would we overnight learn how to engage it appropriately and use it in a healthy way?
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Probably not.
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It would take some time for us to re-socialize around it, where other cultures, let s use the lazy example of Amsterdam, they ve been from birth socialized around how to utilize and encounter and work with it.
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So, yeah, similar argument, but we always have to remember where we re coming from.
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If you overnight shift something, we re going to have to scramble to learn how to deal with it.
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That s true, so that s the holding a wolf by the ears argument, right?
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You can t just let go.
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Yeah, and I live in California, as do you, and in L.A.
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there s marijuana dispensaries, and there s people, it s very easy to get a marijuana card and to be able to, quote unquote, in a decriminalized way, use marijuana.
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And so, I ve watched people learn how to kind of integrate it into their life, and it s something that s doable if the culture can support it.
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you re one of the few people in the entire world certified as a sex therapist.
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There s a lot of sex experts though.
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So what s the difference here?
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It seems obviously I m certified, hello, but what does that mean?
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I mean.
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It s massive, it s massive.
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It s a really important and good question.
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So the certification process implies that you are already licensed as a therapist.
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That s the fundamental starting point to get certified.
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And then it s multiple years of continuing education
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specialization, supervision, and clinically working with sex therapy cases.
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And so it s a true specialization.
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And, you know, the whole word sex expert, you can call yourself that anyone can call them.
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That s not a regulated term.
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I am.
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You can ask any woman I ve ever I m far from an expert on this subject.
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There s a consensus that I am not a sex expert.
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Oh, you are not.
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I am not.
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You have some work to do.
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And so you would be a prime candidate to see someone like me.
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You would be the guy that would call me and say, you know, I m in a relationship.
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My girlfriend is not thinking that I m that great sexually.
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That s good though.
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There s a place where we can turn for help other than like Pornhub or whatever, which is obviously unhealthy.
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What is healthy sex though?
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Because it seems like that s a wide, there s gotta be a pretty broad definition of what that is.
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Yeah, yeah, and that comes up a lot.
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It s probably among the top three questions that I get asked.
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And you know, it s a tough, frustrating answer that I give.
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It really depends.
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Psychology has a lot of really overarching, universal, solid definitions, and sometimes they ll say things like healthy sex only takes place in a relationship, and that s not true.
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Healthy sex would really be sex that s consensual.
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That s always the number one foundation, is it s consensual.
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Number two is that you re informed.
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You understand what sex is going to mean, what s going to happen, and you re willing to deal with the consequences of that.
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I can see this right because the within the relationship thing sounds like a moral kind of enforcement deal.
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And you go, oh, that makes sense.
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And then they re kind of like and also relationships only are these things.
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They re only heterosexual people who are married and committed to each other or something like that.
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Right.
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Yeah, and it denies the idea that two healthy adults can come together, decide very openly, consensually that we re going to have sex, we don t want it to mean anything more, have a great night, have a lot of depth and intimacy, and then part ways afterwards and never see each other again.
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That can occur and that can be healthy.
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Because it seems like that s the primary argument for what unhealthy sex would be.
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Correct.
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Absolutely.
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And I disagree with that because I would say unhealthy sex would be sex that wasn t consensual and sex that had a negative impact on you in some way.
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How can sex have a negative impact on people?
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I m not that stupid, I just wanna illustrate these answers for people.
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No, that s brilliant.
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That came up this week in a sex therapy group I was running, so I run group therapy as well, and it s important to notice that it s a human being you re with.
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And sex is not as neutral as we want to think it is.
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And people will say, well, that was just a hookup.
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That s just a fling.
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It s not.
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Anytime you have sex, you re impacting the other person.
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And it sounds like a lot of weight on it, but you re either healing them or you re further wounding them.
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You re either letting them know that there s
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healthy people in the world to engage or you re reminding them that the world is a scary place and sex doesn t feel good and it s a negative bad thing.
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And so I tell people have that awareness that whenever you engage someone sexually you are impacting them.
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It s called empathy.
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Wouldn t that be true for kind of the way that we relate to a lot of other folks?
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It s just that this is a more physical way of?
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I d hope so, but I just don t think we walk around.
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You know, we live in a very capitalist, individualistic culture where it s all about me.
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What do I want?
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I have to put myself first, and that s the opposite of this, where I think the work is about being more empathetic and relational, meaning how is this impacting those around me?
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So we start to think about our relationships with other people and sex with other people using that.
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Can you teach us a model for, you have a better model for dating and marriage in your book.
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Can you tell us about that?
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Yes, yes.
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What the model for dating and marriage is, is not what we re doing right now.
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And it s not what you re probably reading in most of these
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you know, sex and dating manuals and it s not what most therapists are telling you.
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What most therapists and manuals and media, because media is a massive socializer for us, it s telling you that you need to put yourself first and you need to look out for yourself.
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That s awesome, but that s anti-relationship.
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Relationship is actually about a fusion and somewhat of a codependence with another person and you actually want to think in opposite terms and you want to think, how is this impacting my partner and how is this impacting us?
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And we don t do that.
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What do we do instead?
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We re just thinking about... Self.
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Self.
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What do I want?
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I need self-esteem.
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And I try to tell people, no, it s relational esteem.
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And if you re gonna be in a relationship, you can t say I, you have to think in terms of us and we.
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And that s what comes in my office, in my couples and sex therapy clients is two people come in and they re only thinking about what they want and what they need.
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and there s no relationship.
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And I try to get them to a place where they re thinking, what does our relationship need, and what about us, what, you know, we, and kind of fuse them and push them together.
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So that s one issue that comes into your office.
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What kind of other issues do you see?
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What kind of other problems or issues do people slide in your office?
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Yes, sexual dysfunctions, that would be among the top three.
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In addition to this, you know, how do I maintain a relationship kind of thing.
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And it s a fascinating thing to look at, because, you know, and weigh in on this, Jordan, around what you ve heard all
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your life.
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Um, people will talk about erectile dysfunctions and a lot of guys have anxiety, you know, will I last?
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How long will I last?
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Will I be able to get hard?
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Will I be able to stay hard?
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And it completely, completely changes what sex is even about.
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You know, why do we have sex?
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I mean, I ll ask you that.
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Why do you, why do you have sex?
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It s an urge and it s fun.
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And yeah, the PC answer is to develop and further my intimate relationships.
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Yes, all of those reasons.
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And none of those inherently consistently need your penis to be hard at all times.
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And yet we ve moved away from what you just said, which is a pleasure model, a connection based model.
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SPEAKER_00
We ve moved away.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now we re just thinking about performance.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s not about performance.
2
SPEAKER_00
Bad sex is sex where people are only worried about performance.
2
SPEAKER_00
Good sex is how did that feel?
2
SPEAKER_00
Did I feel connected?
2
SPEAKER_00
Did I get off?
2
SPEAKER_00
And so there s no right way for your penis to operate.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I alleviate a lot of stress on guys when I tell them there s no such thing as coming too soon because there s no right amount of time to wait until you come.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s no
2
SPEAKER_00
healthy, right amount of time that you re supposed to last.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everyone is different, and that s okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so the work around that is getting guys confident that some people have erections that will last long, some people don t, and you have to work on accepting that versus getting stressed out and trying to change that.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s no right way.
2
SPEAKER_01
Ah, yeah, so they come to you to learn about this, or to, I mean, how do you?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, they come in in a panic, and they say, you know, my girlfriend shames me because she says I don t last long enough, or, you know, when I meet a girl, I m really turned on, and I get really anxious, and I can t get hard, and I say to them, you re not a dildo, it s a penis, not a dildo.
2
SPEAKER_00
A dildo will always be hard.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you want that, reach for that, but you re a human being, and, you know, we have this idea.
2
SPEAKER_01
Reach for the dildo, yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
But that s actually part of the solutions.
2
SPEAKER_00
I say, you know, if you come sooner than you want, you still have a tongue, you still have fingers, you have sex toys.
2
SPEAKER_00
Good lovers don t let sex stop.
2
SPEAKER_00
Good lovers know that sex is not just about penetration and a penis.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s a huge tip.
2
SPEAKER_01
And how do we educate, I mean, that sounds great, right, but how do we educate our partners on this if they re kind of not on board?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and most of them won t be.
2
SPEAKER_00
A lot of women will say, he must not be attracted to me because he can t keep an erection and they personalize it and then they throw that back on their partner and they get angry and it creates really erosive, problematic, dangerous relationship.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it s a couple s issue.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, any issue that s sexually based, it s going to involve usually two people, and it becomes a couple s issue.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s kind of why I wrote the book.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s why I do the TV shows I do, because I m trying to get out there.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s why this podcast is important, because I want people to start having this conversation and re-educating each other.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because basically, the solution is a massive cultural re-education around healthy sex.
2
SPEAKER_01
What about things like porn addiction?
2
SPEAKER_01
This is a buzzword now.
2
SPEAKER_01
Sex addiction, porn addiction.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m reading Neil Strauss  new book which is all about this subject without giving too much of it away.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I don t subscribe to any of it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s an interesting time where
2
SPEAKER_00
We re labeling and pathologizing typical normal life experiences.
2
SPEAKER_00
I have guys coming in and they ve self-diagnosed or their wife or girlfriend has diagnosed them as a porn addict or a masturbation addict.
2
SPEAKER_00
What s really funny is when I ask them to explain to me their masturbation habits or their porn use, they re really describing typical expected situations.
2
SPEAKER_00
Most guys masturbate anywhere from one to three times a day.
2
SPEAKER_00
if your girlfriends tell you.
2
SPEAKER_01
What if you don t masturbate enough, apparently?
2
SPEAKER_01
There you go.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like every guy listening.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s a good response, but there will be wives that will say, you masturbate every day, you re a masturbation addict or a porn addict, and it s, no, he s actually normal.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s typical.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s expected.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s a lot.
2
SPEAKER_00
It is.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, this is the thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
is the beauty of sex, and therefore solo sex masturbation, is that it s a tool and a resource that we have to self-soothe, to help get rid of stress.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s something to do with ourselves to reinforce self-esteem and pleasure, and a lot of people utilize that.
2
SPEAKER_00
When you have a rough day, what do you come home and do?
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_01
What do I do?
2
SPEAKER_00
Push-ups?
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you put on a game?
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you put on television?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I ve got different types of ways to blow off steam, I guess.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, sometimes it s a video game day, that s pretty rare.
2
SPEAKER_01
Other times, I play with my cat, actually.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s pretty relaxing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Other people would come home and masturbate.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, I definitely had those days.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s called college.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s a time of, you know, a lot more singledom or hookups.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so there s more of a place for it.
2
SPEAKER_00
But when you get into a long term committed relationship, that s when people start to get bothered.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because you have this partner that s more aware of that, and they can shame that.
2
SPEAKER_00
But could you imagine Jordan, if I said to you, I think you re a cat petting addict, because every day,
2
SPEAKER_00
when you come home from work and you re stressed, you pet your cat to feel better, that s as ridiculous as me saying you can t, in that same moment, be masturbating for five minutes as well.
2
SPEAKER_00
What s the distinction?
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think the difference is your partner thinks you should be recruiting me to help out with that.
2
SPEAKER_00
which would be awesome if your partner lived with you, was there when you got home, and always interested in maybe daily sex.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s usually not the case.
2
SPEAKER_01
Jason says he drinks scotch when he runs to relax, and he says, three times a day my damn arm would fall off, and it should be fine as long as you re not masturbating your cat.
2
SPEAKER_01
Jason, if you re not gonna speak up.
2
SPEAKER_01
If Jason is not going to speak up, I m going to throw everything that s on the back channel out.
2
SPEAKER_00
I like how Jason thinks.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think Jason should be in on this.
2
SPEAKER_00
But it s an interesting thing to consider because it goes back to what we started talking about at the beginning of this, which was we re sex phobic.
2
SPEAKER_00
So if you use sex for something, it s automatically perceived as risky, dangerous or questionable.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can have scotch when you get home to unwind.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can pet your cat, play a video game.
2
SPEAKER_00
But oh my gosh, if it s masturbation or porn, we re going to pull the fire alarm because sex is always suspect.
2
SPEAKER_00
Why?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because we have a sex-phobic culture.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let me ask you this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Why on a Sunday can you zone out, be non-productive and watch a football game for four hours or Real Housewives marathon for eight hours, but you can t masturbate for a couple hours?
2
SPEAKER_01
What s the difference?
2
SPEAKER_01
The difference is I can t masturbate for a couple hours no matter what.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, if you had, that s practice.
2
SPEAKER_00
You need to practice.
2
SPEAKER_00
But you get the point.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s just that we always think sex is some different case.
2
SPEAKER_00
We just can t quite assess it on the same level as everything else.
2
SPEAKER_00
Is porn addiction not a real thing then?
2
SPEAKER_00
Is that what you re saying?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s what s interesting.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right now, the American Psychological Association does not recognize sex or porn addiction as a real thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
The American Psychiatric Association does not.
2
SPEAKER_00
The National Institute of Mental Health does not.
2
SPEAKER_00
The Diagnostic Manual has rejected it as a diagnosis.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not something that you can bill insurance for.
2
SPEAKER_00
within the field of psychology, it does not exist.
2
SPEAKER_00
So technically, any therapist diagnosing you with this is really being unethical and possibly illegal if they re building insurance around it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because the conspiracy theorists, I m trying to think for them right now, they re going to be like, that s because insurance companies want to limit what you can get treated for.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s true too.
2
SPEAKER_00
That is real.
2
SPEAKER_00
That is real.
2
SPEAKER_00
I would say it s because there s a lot of studies showing both sides.
2
SPEAKER_00
The bigger comment on that is that the flaw in studies is that you can find a study to prove whatever position you want to take, but the newer studies coming out of places like UCLA are showing that what the problem really is is not that you re looking at pornography too much.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s that you have shame around the fact that you re looking at pornography, that your culture, your religion, your wife, someone is making you feel bad about the pornography, and the shame is the actual problem, but you re somehow labeling it as an addiction.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, because then instead of saying this is something I d like to do even though you don t like it, people can label you or you can label yourself as somebody who has a disease.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s the Tiger Woods scenario.
2
SPEAKER_00
That man was not a sex addict.
2
SPEAKER_00
He was a jerk.
2
SPEAKER_00
He cheated on his wife.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s not an addiction.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s something mean and not nice to do, but by calling himself a sex addict, someone gets out of jail free.
2
SPEAKER_00
I can t help it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s a disease.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s a disorder.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m struggling.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m gonna go to treatment.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s nothing to treat.
2
SPEAKER_00
You need some integrity.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, he had a lot of women throwing themselves at him.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s a celebrity.
2
SPEAKER_00
He had crappy boundaries.
2
SPEAKER_00
He needs better boundaries.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s not a sex addict.
2
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, it gives people a way to feel better about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you go to a quote-unquote sex addiction treatment center, they will tell you that sex outside of a committed relationship is addictive, which is funny because that makes
2
SPEAKER_00
80% of the culture an addict because not everyone is married and we are all being sexual.
2
SPEAKER_00
They also don t think that masturbation is a healthy form of self-soothing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, problematic.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is all being diagnosed by people that haven t had sex in God knows how long.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re afraid of sex.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re not dating, so they don t remember what it s like to be single or struggling.
3
SPEAKER_00
So this is making sense to them, but if they were actually out there as a sexual person like I am, I m single, I m out there dating, I m out there having sex, I m reminded of what s normal because I m living it, I m struggling with it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And a lot of these people are so detached from the world.
3
SPEAKER_01
All right, back to Chris Donahue.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think there s a lot of that and also it just, it seems like maybe those forms of treatment were created back when you could never have acknowledged that some of this stuff was natural because everybody was so conservative and people in the profession were just not gonna tolerate that because it would have been like endorsement or something.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, and God forbid we endorse sex as a solution for anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
And also, these people aren t trained.
3
SPEAKER_00
The people that started the sex addiction movement are not psychologists.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now there are psychologist therapists in it, but the founders were not sexologists.
3
SPEAKER_00
They did not have advanced degrees in human sexuality.
3
SPEAKER_00
They were not certified sex therapists.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the people running these centers also are not.
3
SPEAKER_00
So they re people that aren t even trained in sex.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that s something that has to be questioned.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it was really interesting, full disclosure, and this is actually in the beginning of my book, my early clinical career was me getting trained in and working in the sex addiction world.
3
SPEAKER_00
My early career was me getting trained in and working in sex addiction.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, I understand the inside of that.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was trained in all the big names in the field, and so I m in a really privileged place to be able to call bullshit on all of it, because what I got to learn is that the big leaders in the sex addiction field are all so sex-phobic, and they all have their own issues where sex created problems in their life, and their response to it is to do sex addiction, and to shame it, and to continue to be afraid of it, and to make people also that way.
3
SPEAKER_01
A few weeks ago, a few months ago, actually, on the show, we had a friend, Chris, and he was a woman and transitioned into a man and did it very publicly.
3
SPEAKER_01
not like Bruce Jenner publicly, but he did it like in an office and all his friends and family were kind of on board with it, knew about it, so it really affected him and it created this big conversation here at Art of Charm in the fan mail inbox and things like that about the concept of gender norms and roles and going to law school at a liberal school like University of Michigan, there was a lot of, there was a whole lot
3
SPEAKER_01
Of discussion on those topics and even one of my close friends at school that i worked with a lot of projects was a woman who used to be a man and she was like fifty and had kids in the next one it was crazy and is really really interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so it s clear that we have kind of a controversy with gender norms and roles and things like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Can you touch on that a little bit?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, I mean, that s a brilliant story.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you re telling the stories of success around gender, but it does a lot of violence and does a lot of damage.
3
SPEAKER_00
There was a young teenager, and he went into school, and this occurs sadly very often, and shot it up, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Started firing, killed a lot of girls, killed a lot of boys.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the question was, he s mentally ill, he s mentally ill.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, what I was trying to get the attention focused on was what creates such a social problematic tension, and it s gender.
3
SPEAKER_00
From birth, we are trained to believe that there s such a thing as this different opposite other gender, and we re separated.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, everything we do as kids, as boys over here, girls over there, we are forcing this idea of this other kind of person that you don t understand, and they re so different from you, and they re the opposite, they re the opposite.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you never necessarily learn how to really then engage them.
3
SPEAKER_00
You all of a sudden hit puberty, and you re struggling to figure out, how do I make sense and approach and talk to this magical other that I ve been told is an opposite, when in reality, it s not, we ve made it that way.
3
SPEAKER_00
And this poor kid had no self-esteem, didn t know how to talk to girls, was raised to see them as scary and other and opposite, and got rejected by them because he didn t know how to talk to them.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it built such a depression that he went into school and killed a bunch of people.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I was saying, yet again,
3
SPEAKER_00
This idea that there s separate genders and they re the opposite is ridiculous.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s so socially created.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, if you say I m a man, all of a sudden there s a list of expectations that we have on you that are completely made up.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re going to have to enlist in the army, so all of a sudden your life isn t that meaningful.
3
SPEAKER_00
If a ship is sinking, women and children first, that s an arbitrary designation.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if you have a penis, your life yet again doesn t mean as much as the other two do.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s all these bizarre expectations.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I see it really creating problems in my office where, again, one of the biggest couples issues is I don t understand this other gender.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I try to explain to my clients, you re very similar.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s a lot of similarities and you ve been told that there s a separation in distance and there isn t.
3
SPEAKER_01
So how do we fix that in a society that has the sex taboo that we have?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, we are already, though.
3
SPEAKER_00
Walmart, they re no longer having their toy aisle separated by gender.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s now just toys.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s not girls aisle and boys aisle.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s just all blended, which is a brilliant move away from that, where a toy is a toy.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s no such thing as a girl s toy or a boy s color.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re colors.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re toys.
3
SPEAKER_00
Pick whatever you want.
3
SPEAKER_00
Play with it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Have fun.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that s a beautiful example of that.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, when I was a kid, I used to like girls, a lot of different types of girls  toys, and my parents didn t care, but people in the toy store would always make me feel weird about it.
3
SPEAKER_01
So eventually, I started to like have, I would say, Mom, can you go get this for me?
3
SPEAKER_01
And I can t remember what they were.
3
SPEAKER_01
They were like little people that folded up.
3
SPEAKER_01
They re not super girly.
3
SPEAKER_01
They just had a girly name, but they were cool.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, they were like fun things.
3
SPEAKER_00
But Jordan, it s for girls.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, and I found one on the playground, and I kept it, and that s what got me into them in the first place.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I was like, oh, I want this.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I went to the store, and the woman was like, these are for girls.
3
SPEAKER_01
How about some GI Joe?
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it wasn t that cliche, but it was something like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, look, we have toy soldiers.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, I already have a ton of those.
3
SPEAKER_01
I want these things.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it was really strange.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I remember one time I made up a weird story about wanting this, and I sort of tried to trick my mom into buying it without me, even though I tried to describe the exact thing that I wanted.
3
SPEAKER_01
hearing a kid talk about a toy and getting the right thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s impossible.
3
SPEAKER_01
Talk about finding a needle in a haystack.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve been to Toys R Us this week looking at Legos, and there s a million different options.
3
SPEAKER_01
You can t even choose when you re looking.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so eventually I sort of stopped liking that stuff, not because it was less appealing, but because it was actually a pain in the ass to get people to just freaking sell me whatever it was and not give me so much crap for it.
3
SPEAKER_01
They re weird, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
And even now, I m like, I totally understand the appeal of boys  toys.
3
SPEAKER_01
Legos were for boys back when I was a kid.
3
SPEAKER_01
Girls didn t even have them.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s a bizarre designation that s forced on people.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s damaging.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you know, again, going on dates and being a man or a woman, all of a sudden, there s a lot of expectations on you and a lot of pressure, and you have to be a certain way.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s just traumatic.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s a big movement coming and it s happening and there s a lot more being written on it called gender-neutral parenting, which is parenting your child without a gender, meaning letting them just be.
3
SPEAKER_00
Whatever they want to watch, they can watch.
3
SPEAKER_00
Whatever they want to wear, they can wear.
3
SPEAKER_00
Whatever they want to play with, understanding that there s nothing mentally disordered in a child playing with something that s from a different gender because we make that up.
3
SPEAKER_00
Here s another funny historical example.
3
SPEAKER_00
If a boy is born, what color do we slap him into?
3
SPEAKER_00
Blue.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, back in the day, blue was for girls, it was seen as feminine, and boys were put in pink because it was close to red, and red was seen as royal and regal.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so- So we switched them?
3
SPEAKER_00
We did.
3
SPEAKER_00
Girls aren t drawn naturally towards pink.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, my daughter is such a girl, she loves pink.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, we ve socialized her to believe that, because there was a time when she would have been wearing blue.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s arbitrary.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s interesting, because there s a lot of people that think that that s a natural
3
SPEAKER_01
It s not at all.
3
SPEAKER_00
For sure not at all.
3
SPEAKER_00
Think about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
You walk down the aisle, if you have a little girl with you, you re walking her down the little girl s toy aisle.
3
SPEAKER_00
She s only going to be able to reach for what she has in front of her.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s something that s forced upon people.
3
SPEAKER_00
Again, just like I said, the example is this idea that there s an opposite sex.
3
SPEAKER_00
There isn t.
3
SPEAKER_00
It really fouls up couples and it messes up sex.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, can we go overboard with this, though?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because it seems like there s a lot of people who write things like, we re not gonna tell our baby that it s a boy.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re gonna let him find out.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, you can t not, raising something as non-gendered is fine, but it s like you can t withhold information that everyone else in society is going to have.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s just going to be weird, I think.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes, because it goes back to changing how we look at sex or the legalization of drugs conversation, which is we live in the culture we live in.
3
SPEAKER_00
Certain changes, although healthy or important, still are going to be treated based on the culture we currently live in.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because we do like gender, if out of the blue people are being raised without one, there s going to be some conflict, tension, or growing pains.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t know how to frame it.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s not going to be a smooth, seamless thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I think it s moving in the right direction because as we talked about with your friend who was transsexual and Bruce Jenner, you don t know if you re raising a transsexual child.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if you are, and you re forcing them into a gender they re not comfortable with, you re doing psychological damage.
4
SPEAKER_01
Thank you very much.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yikes, that s not something you wanna do to your kid at all, obviously.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s also like if you re raising your kid who s a boy, assuming they re heterosexual and always talking about dating girls, if it turns out they re not, you re doing psychological damage and you re forcing them into the closet, which means at some point they have to struggle to come out of the closet to you.
4
SPEAKER_02
And all those things don t need to exist if we didn t make these assumptions.
4
SPEAKER_02
If we raised our kids and did sex education where we said, maybe you like boys, maybe you like girls, we ll find out someday.
4
SPEAKER_02
That would make this transition a lot smoother.
4
SPEAKER_02
Maybe you will continue to dress and live as a boy.
4
SPEAKER_02
Maybe you won t.
4
SPEAKER_02
Both are options.
4
SPEAKER_02
Both occur.
4
SPEAKER_02
Also, we ll have a smoother transition, but we don t do that.
4
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I can just see the awkward conversations I m going to have with my kids.
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Listen, son or future daughter, not really sure yet.
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Now, when you re dating, boys or girls, whichever you choose,
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Be sure that you wear just whatever you want, doesn t have to be blue or pink, and you can also... Jordan, please do that.
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I promise you, you will be saving your child so much struggle if they happen to not be heterosexual or aligned with the gender that they ve been raised with.
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I mean, I know it sounds funny, but we have to look to the younger generations to really understand what we re headed towards.
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And if you re looking at what s going on in terms of identity and gender and sex with the 12-year-olds and 14-year-olds and 16-year-olds, that s the direction we re moving.
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More kids are coming out as gay, more kids are coming out as trans because they re realizing that they can, there s a confidence in it, and they re realizing that s an option.
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And so we have to get comfortable and accommodate that.
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Before we close, you ve got some pretty counterintuitive advice, or I shouldn t say counterintuitive, but maybe counter what everybody else is saying about dating and sex.
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Controversial.
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Controversial, maybe, yes, that too.
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One of the bits of advice was have sex as soon as possible because of the importance of sexual compatibility.
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Can you discuss that a little bit?
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Usually people say, well, you should wait, because if you do it too early, you re doing yourself some damage, you re selling yourself short, or not valuing yourself, or... Oh, right, or you re communicating that you re not really interested in the person.
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Yeah, and it s funny, because again, I m a sex and couples therapist, so I work primarily, exclusively, mostly with couples.
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I ll tell you, what happens often, and this is very sad, is people will assume if I m attracted to you and we hit it off psychologically and have great conversation and a lot of interest, well, sex will just fall into place.
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Sex will just inherently be compatible and something that works.
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No, not at all.
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That is a lie.
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It is its own level of compatibility and intimacy.
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It s not inherently there if you love someone.
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Couples will really invest in each other and build something together.
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Maybe get married and maybe even, you know, purchase a house or move and have not really explored sexual compatibility.
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And then when they finally do and it s not there, it rips them apart.
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You can t be monogamously long-term happy with a partner that you re not sexually compatible with.
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It s something that you have to investigate.
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It s as important as all the other levels of compatibility.
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Thanks so much, Dr. Chris Donahue.
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Is there anything that we haven t asked you that you want to make sure you communicate to the AOC audience?
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No, no, I think that was pretty solid.
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Excellent.
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Well, thank you very much.
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We re going to link to your work in the show notes here, as well as your Twitter and your book.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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Well, Jason, I learned a lot about sex and relationships and what s considered normal amounts of masturbation.
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Jeez, that s a... Or abnormal amounts of masturbation.
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Or abnormal amounts, yeah, exactly.
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Well, there s a lot here, definitely a little bit of TMI for those of you who now need a shower, I apologize.
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Show feedback and guest suggestions, the show s a fanarchy, it s run by you.
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We rely on you to help keep our finger on the pulse, so if you know someone who s a good fit for the show, let us know, guests at theartofcharm.com.
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And if you enjoyed this, don t forget to thank Dr. Chris on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as his book and other resources.
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And you can tap album art in most mobile podcast players to see the show notes right on your phone.
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I also post a ton of stuff on Twitter that never makes it to the show.
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Articles and other insights, I m at theartofcharm on Twitter.
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Bootcamp details at theartofcharm.com.
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And remember, we re sold out in advance.
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In fact, right now, we re sold out three to four months in advance.
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So if you re thinking about it, get in touch ASAP, get details.
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Plan ahead.
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Go ahead, tell your friends.
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Now have a great week and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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