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In this episode of the Advanced Selling Podcast, Bill springs a family event-based situation that comes from a blemish on his face and turns it into a sales topic.
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I go loud and proud with my Evansville, Indiana hillbilly accent, and we examine a common flaw in evaluating sales performance.
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We call it the root cause dilemma.
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Listen to this one and see if you ve got it.
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Welcome, everybody, to the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest-running sales training podcast in podcast history.
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My name is Brian Neal.
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I m Bill Kasky.
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Glad that you re here, here every week for your listening enjoyment.
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We want to talk to you about one of our programs that you ve heard us mention a lot.
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You re going to hear us mention a lot more, the Advanced Selling Podcast Insider.
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We just, this is a program, it s a community of like-minded salespeople, all listeners, we think, at this point.
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We have about 75 members, and we get together the first Friday of every month, from noon to 1.15, live, so Bill and I become your personal coach, and we roll through some really, really great ideas and content.
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We ve got a great group, we just actually had the Insider last Friday.
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And it was fantastic.
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So I wasn t able to be on that one.
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Usually we re both on.
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What was one thing that came out of that that had to do with how to denominate the problem the customer has?
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What s one lesson that you felt people learned and took away?
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The topic was how to denominate pain or problem, which is basically tying money to an issue or a challenge or an opportunity someone has.
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People struggle with that a lot.
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One of our listeners will remain nameless because I didn t get permission to use his name.
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He gave me the, he goes, that s the moment.
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He even came on and he said, Brian, that s it right there.
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And what it was, was reframing and completely changing your intention around this process.
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Where most people have the intention to prove their value and to prove ROI.
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We change that to get our intention to work through the ROI, to see what the answer is together with the customer, and not try to prove that it s worth it, to work together to see if it s worth it.
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And the customer comes to the belief on their own, in their own way, with our help, but not in a forced, yeah, that s really good.
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Or you d figure out that it s not a good economic deal, and then both of you leave.
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So that to him, and he asks a really great question.
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He s in the medical device world.
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And he s like, that was it.
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He goes, that was worth every dime I ll pay you for the year.
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That ll change his whole approach and everything he does from this point forward.
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Because a lot of times, we get into this ROI
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mode, and we need to prove, like you said, we need to prove ROI.
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And when you do that, you create resistance.
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That s exactly what we said in the meeting.
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Exactly what we said.
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Yes, that s really good.
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I had a dream that you guys said that.
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It was in England.
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So if you re not a member, all you have to do is go to the Advanced Selling Podcast website, advancedsellingpodcast.com.
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There s a little place that says join the insider.
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What does it say?
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The big green button.
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Look for the big green button that talks about The Insider.
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All of you that listen, it s your time.
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You need to be part of that program.
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It s really, really great.
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OK, I had a situation that happened that I m going to pivot then, and I ve got a topic for us.
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And by the way, we have not.
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Bill said, I ve got a situation that happened, and it s going to turn into a topic, and I know nothing.
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I m feeling a little uncomfortable, but I m ready.
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A little tingly?
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OK.
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Ready, ready.
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Well, here we go.
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Oh gosh.
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You know, you spend a lot of time with your family around the holidays, and we celebrated Easter here a few weeks, a couple weeks ago, and it was around Jane s family.
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Occasionally probably two times a year.
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I get this little outbreak on my chin and it s it s a yeah It s a scraping of the blade when I shave or it s you know, who knows what it is It could be vitamin C I don t know but I get it and it kind of and then you shave over a couple times and it kind of creates a little Visible thing.
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Okay.
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Yeah, most guys have that it happens every time
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Well, we were over at Jane s family for Easter, and there were 12 people there.
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And over the course of the first hour, seven of them came up to me, pointed at this thing on my chin, and said, oh, what s going on there?
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What happened?
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What s the problem?
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And it s like, I would not think of pointing out a blemish on someone s face.
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If I went into a prospect and they had a big scar, I wouldn t say, hey, well, before we started, what the hell?
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What did you do to your eye?
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Were you drunk this weekend?
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Falling your head on the corner of a table?
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And then they get into cause.
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What caused that?
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And then I pivoted to, why is it we are so focused on the cause of something, whether it s somebody goes in and shoots up some of the challenges that we ve had in our society, and riots, and COVID?
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We want to know what caused it.
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Was it the Wuhan virus?
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Was it the lab?
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What caused it?
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And it seems to me like we are missing the real essence of that when we go to the one cause solution.
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Because usually there are many causes for things, aren t there?
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And who wrote the book?
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I can t remember his name.
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He wrote the 10,000-hour rule.
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Oh, Malcolm Gladwell.
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Malcolm Gladwell.
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Yeah.
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Talked in one of his books about how when a plane goes down, it s never one thing.
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Correct.
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It s a series of 10 things.
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It s a series of small little mistakes.
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Small little mistakes.
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He talked about Korean Airlines.
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Yeah.
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Any one of which would have been fixed, it wouldn t have happened.
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Correct.
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And so I thought it would be a good topic today.
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This is a long roundabout thing.
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I like it.
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I like it.
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to talk about causes in sales whether it s the micro causes of losing a deal or getting a deal or The macro causes of you know, I m just not sure I m up for it.
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I m not earning the kind of money.
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I want to earn I m not making the sales.
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I want to make my conversion percentage is too low
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So there s all sorts of things in sales.
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We try to fix and Managers, I think are guilty of coming up with the one cause theory.
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You re just not working hard enough.
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Yes, you re not making enough calls Yes, and yet I think it s always more complex than that so what I thought we could do today is pick a situation that you have seen in your work and
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is one of those problems that we try to fix, and we re trying to fix it with one cause, and then let s you and I share maybe some four or five different ways to look at that so that we can help our listeners really solve some of these problems they have.
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I love that.
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And you know, it s funny.
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So I love what you, I don t know if you meant to say it, but you said the word micro cause a little bit.
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And that s what I think no one really does is they don t dissect the little micro causes they dissect or don t even dissect.
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They just like blanket statement.
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The big problem is this.
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We just weren t aggressive enough.
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We re just not calling on the right person.
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We re just not aggressive enough.
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It s just some big thing.
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Well, there s so many little micro causes to why that s happening.
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That s where the answer is.
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That s where the answer is.
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So that alone, I think, that for me is a shift in thinking to go, even if I m coaching someone.
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And the thing is, they might be right in the first statement.
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So they might be, we re calling on the wrong people.
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That might be right.
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And you don t just fix that and go, go call the right people.
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You don t do that.
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You have to go, why?
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What are all the little reasons we re not?
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So I love that idea.
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In fact, you can take almost as I m thinking about it out loud.
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Because I had no choice, because I didn t get to prepare for the topic.
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Because you re thinking out loud.
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Exactly.
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Take big topics.
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Take that one, for instance.
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We re not calling on the right people.
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Almost any big sales problem topic.
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So if you re listening to this and you re going, I tend to get lots of price pressure.
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And so the big topic might be, we need to do a better job at holding price.
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That s a big topic.
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Perfect example.
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Every one of these can be broken down into microcauses, can t they?
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Absolutely.
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Oh, that s really great.
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So that s a great framework, yeah.
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And so you as a listener, if you re a practitioner, you can examine in your own world, say, what are my microcauses?
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That s a really good thing.
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A little inventory to take, a microcause inventory.
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Yeah.
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We re creating tools here on the fly, Bill.
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I like how this is going.
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So using your example of we got to hold price better, was that it?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So we got to hold price better.
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That may be one of several macro causes.
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Maybe we need to hold price better.
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Maybe our pricing is wrong.
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You re right.
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Maybe we re not talking to the right person.
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We re talking to the person who has budget responsibility versus the person who can spend any amount of money.
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But then underneath each of those things are all the micro causes.
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Not to complicate it, but I think if you look at this like a tree, where at the top there s the problem, but all the way down the tree there are lots of different loose ends that impact the problem.
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Because if we work on the bottom of the problem, we re going to work on the top of the problem.
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Yes, absolutely.
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I want to use your tree example, because this is what most sales coaches teach.
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We ve even taught this in the past.
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We talk about the idea of root cause, or if you re from Evansville, Indiana, like I am, you say root cause.
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If you re from Indiana, that s an Indiana thing, root cause.
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I also say cement and insurance.
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Those are my insurance.
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Yeah, my hillbilly accent.
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I say insurance all the time and vehicle.
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You say vehicle.
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It s very Indiana speak.
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So as we were now from Indiana, this is how we talk insurance, cement vehicle.
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There.
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But no tree has a root.
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They have roots.
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Right?
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OK.
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Let s get that straight.
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But to your point, the tree example is great because we want to go to root cause.
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It s not root cause.
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It s roots cause.
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Right.
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It s multiple.
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It s all these little things that add up to one big root cause that then we can fix.
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Yeah, we think it s a trunk.
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Yes, and really it s all the roots that go out of the correct.
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That s great.
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Okay, so let s let s pick one here and Can we pick a macro and like I m not I don t feel like I m Making enough money in my territory.
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I m not selling enough.
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Okay, I like the decision maker thing Not calling.
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Yeah
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Get we or whatever you want.
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Do people admit that do people admit that they re not calling on the right people?
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Are we defensive about that?
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Oh, I think well, I need to be defensive about both.
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I think people are defensive about all this Oh, no, I know but I mean the whole decision-maker thing.
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We see that a lot in our consulting Yeah, I m coaching practice and I sense that a lot of times people say well, yeah, you know I wasn t calling on the president, but no this this dude he makes a decision here Yeah, and he didn t
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No, it never does.
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And I think we get defensive about that.
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We do.
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Maybe that s part of the cause.
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It s one of the roots.
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Roots.
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Root one.
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Root one is defensiveness.
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OK, so we re going to go down the not calling on the right person.
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Yeah, yeah.
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That tends to be.
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Someone else involved that I m not with or we lose because we weren t at decision maker Okay, so what we re going to do here then is go through three or four things that could be Subcauses of why we re not calling on the right person.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Yeah.
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Yeah micro causes.
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Okay micro causes Okay, micro root mcrs micro cause roots All right.
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I ll start here.
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Just uh, yeah
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I think we don t call on the right person a lot of times because we really don t have an appreciation of the circumstances they re going through, their problems.
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We are kind of removed.
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Like if somebody says, you ve got to go call on the CEO of Oracle.
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In order to do the deal.
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Yeah, I m not sure I m well Equipped to call on them because I don t know what they re going through day to day I don t understand what a CEO at that level the you know, the fortune 10 level.
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I m not sure what they re going through I m not sure what their problems are what their visions are.
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I m not sure what they think about at night I think I could learn that
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But I don t know, so therefore, I m not going to put myself in a position to go call on that guy when I don t even know what his situation is.
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So lack of understanding of their situation, I think, is a big part of why I don t call on him.
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I think another reason is I am fearful of conflict, that I m conflict-averse.
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And I m fearful to press back on a customer knowing that they re going to have to go somewhere else to get approval for something or go get advice or get someone else to sign the contract.
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I am afraid to push on that and ask to be brought with or ask to meet with that person because I m afraid that person will dismiss me, not like me, push back.
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And that feels uncomfortable to me.
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And you ll lose the deal.
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I ll lose a deal because of that.
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I ll lose a deal for my own comfort.
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Yeah, I ll put my own comfort ahead of potentially winning a deal.
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And so you would trust that or this person would trust that person you re talking to to go take it to another level and say the right things and do that.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Brene Brown just put a thing out about that about if you re like in a bad mood or sad or something like that.
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and I m like, don t be sad, it s okay, Bill.
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Really what I m doing is I m putting my well-being, because I m uncomfortable that you re uncomfortable, so I need to lift you up.
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We look at it the opposite, but she said that s what that is, it s selfish, it s really true, isn t it?
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Come on, no, you put yourself up, be happy.
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Okay, you re happy, we re good now, now we re good.
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So basically we re saying, I m good, we re good, we re good.
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Yeah, oh, Bill s in a bad way, but he s good now.
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So now I m good, too.
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It s funny, isn t it?
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If you have to ask someone if they re good now, do not believe the answer.
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No, of course not.
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It s all about you.
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The one asking the question, are you good now, is really about because I need to stay good, and I m not good when you re bad.
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Funny, isn t it?
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That is good.
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Let s see.
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What else you got there?
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Other micro causes for not calling on the right person.
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I ve got one here.
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I wonder sometimes, since we don t understand their situation, which I said earlier, is do we really believe we can bring value to them?
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If we don t believe we can bring value, and I know it s easy to say, oh yeah, oh no, Bill, Brian, we bring enormous value.
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But if you re not willing to put your career on the line to go talk to that person, then do you really believe in the value you bring?
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And I m convinced that
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probably half the time when we re not calling on the right person, it s because we don t believe by doing so we help them.
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I think we see it as a move to make a sale and a move to get around somebody, as you just talked about, versus we owe it to this dude or lady
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in the top office to go have a conversation, because maybe we can help them make tens of millions of dollars, but if we don t see that value, we won t.
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Yes.
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I think another root cause is laziness.
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laziness.
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It just becomes, it s the path of least resistance.
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The place where I get access to, if I ve got access, I think that s good and that s hard enough.
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It s hard to try to navigate my way through a complex selling situation.
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If there are, you know, the Challenger customer, a really great book that I love, the Challenger customer says there are on average 5.4 decision makers, plural, involved in any close sale these days.
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That s a stat they have.
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So let s call it six people.
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We ll round up.
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That s a lot of work for me as a salesperson.
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I really just want to talk to one person.
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Then I don t have to write six emails and have six meetings, get six perspectives, and process all that.
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So I think that s part of the money crisis, a little bit of laziness.
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I think when the Challenger book was written, too, we ve had Brian Gray on our podcast before.
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And I think there s some new stats that it s even higher than six.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I think so, too.
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It s closer to seven people in B2B complex sales.
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So what s my last one here?
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I think my last one is is a Fear or ego that is always Present with us that stops us from doing what we need to do and you mentioned it a little bit but I think it kind of goes to everything we say any question we ask any move we make any breath we take And
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I like it.
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No, but any move we make, I don t mean move like manipulative move.
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I just mean any move in the sales process we make requires a certain amount of courage.
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Unless you have a prospect who is saying, I need you so bad, Brian.
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I ll do anything it takes.
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What s the process?
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You tell me who you need to see.
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I ll set up a point.
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Well, then you don t need to have much courage there.
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You need to go do the thing.
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But most of the times it s not like that.
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There s a little bit of checking each other out, a little bit of resistance, and so you ve got to have courage.
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all the way through the process to do and say the right things so that you can help them to the best, to the highest potential.
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Yes, love that.
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It all starts there, doesn t it?
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It all starts in how we think, how we feel about ourselves, for sure.
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Okay, as we mentioned earlier, if you are not already a member of the Advanced Selling Podcast Insider, what are you waiting for?
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Go to the website, advancedsellingpodcast.com, look for the big green button.
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and come join 75 like-minded salespeople.
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We re gonna flip that thing up to about 150 people here in the next couple months.
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We d love to have you a part of that.
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It s Direct Access Coaching.
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Bill and I live the first Friday of every month.
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Love to see you there.
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And if you re not in the LinkedIn group, go get in the LinkedIn group, because we talk about insider stuff there, too, and it s just a really great place to be.
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Awesome.
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See you next time.
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See you then.
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Bye.