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Welcome to The Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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I m here with producer Jason DeFilippo and writer and compadre Gabriel Mizrahi.
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Here at The Art of Charm, we don t have all the answers, but we definitely have all the right questions.
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Thanks to you, today on Fan Mail Friday, some of those questions come from you.
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If you re new to the Art of Charm podcast, Fan Mail Friday isn t a great place to start.
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Most of our content is more in-depth and longer format, so check out the best of at theartofcharm.com slash best or the Fundamentals Toolbox at theartofcharm.com slash toolbox.
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That s where we ve got the fundamentals of body language and nonverbal communication, attraction, negotiation, networking, persuasion, and everything else we teach here at the Art of Charm.
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We ll send all of this to your inbox if you text CHARMED, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444 in the USA, or if you re not, go to theartofcharm.com.
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Oh, before I forget, we ve deemed this month Social Capital Month, with the goal to teach you how to apply a new way of thinking around the idea of your net worth.
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I m sure you ve heard that before.
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So, check out the free video training series at theartofcharm.com slash network,
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Check it out now, because we re only going to do this once, and then we re going to be taking them down, and I m not just like, they re only here for this week, but really we re going to take them down, because we re going to incorporate them into something else that is not free.
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So check it out, theartofcharm.com slash network.
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All right, let s cut to it.
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Hi Jordan, I m a young almost grad, and really feel The Art of Charm is helping improve myself with each passing week.
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Thank you for putting so much great content out there.
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I m writing because I feel that I m close to doing irreparable damage to the relationship with my mother, and I don t know how to avoid it.
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I recently took a gap year from university to take a moment and think about what I want for myself in the future.
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I feel this has been the most productive year of my life, and I feel surer than ever where I want to go.
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I want to be self-employed, either freelance or running a small business in my field, which is a type of engineering.
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I m fine with taking on a more regular job while I work towards being self-employed.
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The problem comes from my mother being completely unsupportive of my goals.
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I feel she s absolutely incapable of saying anything nice to me without having a quote-unquote butt at the end.
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She argues that there s not really anything to be supportive of as I m not making any money yet, while I argue that I ve only been freelancing for less than a year and that it takes time to build a client base and a body of work.
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In the meantime, I ve also been working a regular job to pay the bills.
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The thing that led to the current crisis is when I told her that I had been contacted by a huge musician to do work for them because they saw my portfolio and they liked it.
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While I haven t gotten the job and probably won t since I lack experience for something that big, I still feel that she should have been happy for me.
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Someone that big reaching out solely on the merit of my portfolio, in my opinion, weren t some kind of acknowledgement.
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Instead, what I got when I called her to tell her the news was her ramblings about how, what I do doesn t pay the bills, and how she s working so hard and how she sacrifices herself for me all the time.
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I got very angry over the phone and said that I felt she s never been supportive of me, at which point she got angry saying I was blaming her and then she hung up.
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Since then, I tried to call and make things right, but she told me that she won t encourage me pursuing a self-employment career, even if that means losing me as a family member, as I won t be able to pay my bills that way.
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We have a very small family, which consists of my mother, my grandmother, and myself.
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So her saying that just blows my mind and hurts me very badly.
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She s very conservative in her views of work, coming from an immigrant background and having a mentality where work that isn t the type of nine to seven work isn t real.
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Nine to seven, that s a long day.
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That s a long day, yeah.
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This isn t a new problem.
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She s never been able to be positive about anything I do, except me getting laid, which is kind of weird, right?
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That is weird, okay.
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We now barely talk and I have no idea what to do.
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She s always been a neurotic mess.
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I would understand her fears better if our financial situation was dire, but as it stands, she could quit her job and live a good life in a European capital for 15 years, after which she could sell her very central apartment that s too big for her anyway and live another 20 years in a less expensive country.
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I don t know what to do.
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I m very angry at her and sad that I don t have anyone believing in myself other than my few friends and occasional girlfriend.
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I have a difficult history with an alcoholic father and a family on my mother s side that s absolutely nuts.
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I ve only realized this over the past couple years as I ve been doing a lot of self-analysis, meditation, and reading about enmeshed relationships.
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If this had been a friend, I would have cut them off years ago, but it s my mom.
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What can I do to keep a good relationship with my mother while not letting her negativity affect me?
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Signed, Angry and Sad.
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That was a book, but I get why.
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I mean, there s a lot in here.
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And I like, I actually really feel bad for this guy because he s, it doesn t sound like he has those unrealistic expectations.
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I mean, he s fine working a regular job while he works towards being self-employed.
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His portfolio s showing some promise.
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He seems to have kind of a realistic outlook on how long it s gonna take to get clients and what work he needs to put in to do it.
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which is something that most entrepreneurs never have.
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They re kind of like, ah, three weeks from now, I m gonna do this massive launch and make seven figures.
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That s what you hear from these guys.
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But this is really just his mom s insecurities being dumped on him, and it s not just baggage.
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There s actually, she s trying to implement consequences, like I m cutting you out of my life if you don t do what I want you to do.
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I mean, it s massively controlling.
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Gabriel, what do you think?
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This is creeping me out a little bit, actually.
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Yeah, this is a tough one.
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I think bottom line,
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this guy is saying is that there s a cost to being his own person.
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And that cost right now is his mother s love and approval.
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He clearly comes from a tight knit family where approval and connection obviously mean a lot, but it sounds like as a result, he s been making choices for her, not for himself.
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And now that he s starting to live a life for himself, he s realizing just how different his values are from his mother s.
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So I think the real question is, do I live my life for me?
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And should I throw off my mother s expectations?
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And I think
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any person who s ever lived a life for himself or herself and has tried to do something that s meaningful has had to deal to some degree with confronting which values mean more.
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And I think that s exactly what he s facing.
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Yeah, I mean, his mom clearly has control issues.
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Sounds like she s a little neurotic.
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There s obviously something going on here where she feels like she can never quit working.
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Maybe she s a workaholic or something like that, and she s trying to make him do that.
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I mean, it s really, really kind of weirdly...
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complex, but, and I get why she s doing this.
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In theory, she s also trying to protect him.
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She probably sees a lot of people who she thinks are lazy, because she s from this hard-working immigrant generation, who just want to do things on their own, and they never make any money, and they never have any security, and she sees him maybe doing that, but she s also completely ignoring all evidence to the contrary.
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Yeah, exactly.
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I mean, look, in the beginning of any entrepreneurial endeavor, or any freelance career, there s always that period where you start
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realizing that this isn t easy.
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It s going to take some time.
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And frankly, I m not going to have like a clear, perfect answer to the question, what do you do?
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And how much money do you make until things start going?
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It sounds like angry and sad.
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This guy has started to get some nice recognition for his work.
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Maybe it s not picking up as quickly as he wants, but it sounds like things are moving and he s caught in that in-between period where it just hasn t become his full career.
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And what makes it hard is that his mother, whom he s obviously really close to,
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is holding it over him.
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And as you said, pulling out all these different cards, I don t know, Jordan.
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I mean, I feel like, you know, there s this old story about the Buddha.
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The Buddha used to ask his students, have you killed your parents yet?
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And what he meant was, have you rejected their control over you?
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You know, like, have you thrown off the imprint and the expectations that they ve put into you from a young age?
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And have you started living for yourself?
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And I feel like that s really the question.
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The sooner he does that, and the sooner he starts living for himself, I think the sooner he ll
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he ll probably be a lot happier, even if it means a tough relationship with his mother in the short term.
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Right, I honestly, I think that if he stands up for himself in a way that makes sense and isn t just like, F you mom!
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I think that if he does his own work, she s gonna be livid in the short term, and then over time, she s gonna go, damn it, I miss my son.
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Especially if you have this small family, right?
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I mean, this is probably an empty threat, the whole I m not gonna love you anymore if you do your freelance thing.
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I think that s an empty threat, and honestly, it s not one she has a right to make, empty or not.
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So there s definitely no part of me that says you should just do what your mom wants so that she ll love you.
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That s ridiculous.
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Yeah, I agree.
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And if she really does love him, then she will come around eventually.
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And if she doesn t, which I suppose is possible, then that s really her choice.
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And he s going to have to accept that.
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But it comes down to do you want to protect this person and let her live in her fear and try to impose it on you?
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Or do you want to live for yourself and maybe risk someone, you know, discomfort and some some trouble in the short term?
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I think ultimately,
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I think you re right, Jordan, she will come around.
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Yeah, I mean, the solution to this one is really clear.
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It s the execution that s just going to be so difficult, right?
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It s not hard to figure out what to do.
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The hard part is doing it.
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And doing it well, yeah, and being successful.
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All right, next question, Jason.
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Hey, Jordan, listen to the podcast and especially like the Friday shows.
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I was hoping for your advice on a particular subject.
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subject.
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I ve been working as a junior level programmer at a company for a year.
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My boss is a more experienced programmer than I am.
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At times, he asks me to do tasks which seem convoluted or unachievable.
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I try to point out why it probably won t work well, or offer alternate solutions I see as working better, but he generally declines them, so I just do it his way.
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When I complete the task, he inevitably seems disappointed with the result, even though the problems with it are exactly the ones I pointed out before.
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I feel like at times I m being set up for failure.
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What s the best way to approach this problem?
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I may be in the wrong, but I appreciate your advice for how honest it is.
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This is weird, because I ve only had bosses that I ve always disappointed, I m pretty sure.
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So I don t think I m in a great position to explain why or how to change this.
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Gabriel, you ve worked in a corporate environment, right?
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So you may have an idea about how certain particular people want things done, even if it s outside your wheelhouse.
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Oh man, I really empathize with this guy.
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This is a tough situation.
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It sounds like his boss is setting him up to fail, but his boss doesn t seem to want to listen to that or to improve.
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The good news is that the writer, this guy, he does see the challenge very clearly and it sounds like he understands the dynamics at work, but let s just appreciate how hard this is for a junior programmer, right?
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Like it s never easy to point out the difficult or the uncomfortable stuff with your boss, especially when he s the one at fault.
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I think it sounds like basically he has three choices, right?
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He could stay in this job and continue to struggle.
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He could bring up the problem in a very direct way to his boss, or I guess to another superior, or he could find another job at another company, which let s be honest, might be a perfectly reasonable option if this one isn t going to get any better.
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So, you know, we could sit here and walk through the benefits and the costs of each, but assuming that he does want to stay and that he wants to make this job as, you know,
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pleasant and set up in a way that he can actually succeed, I have a feeling there might be an uncomfortable but important conversation coming up with his boss, wouldn t you say?
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Yeah, I mean, how do you start that conversation?
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Like, hey, by the way, the way that you do things is ridiculous and my way is better.
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Like, that s not a good way to handle that.
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How do you approach this?
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It s not.
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And I can speak from experience because I ve worked with a couple of nightmare managers and I ve done it poorly and I ve done it really well.
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So all I can tell you is this.
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When it comes to somebody who s managing poorly and who s probably pretty set in his ways, then if you decide to approach this conversation, it will have to be an extremely candid and extremely non-threatening conversations.
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He would have to begin by explaining clearly what he sees the problem is.
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He would have to keep it really focused on the work as opposed to his personal feelings about this guy.
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In other words, instead of saying,
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You know, on Monday you did this and on Wednesday you set me up to fail and on Friday you didn t even review my code.
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And when you did, you know, it wasn t helpful.
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I think it ll have to be a lot more of a conversation that comes from a place of, I want to be the best possible programmer I can be.
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I really love this place.
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I think you and I can work extremely well together, but here are the ways in which I feel like I actually don t have what I need to succeed.
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And I m probably not being the best possible employee for you.
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So let s talk about it.
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Here s what I m seeing.
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Do you agree?
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Here s how I might change it.
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What do you think?
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And then maybe the most important thing in the conversation will be to stop and just listen to what this guy has to say.
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You know, even if he doesn t like it, even if it s not pleasant, a big part of this conversation is going to be listening to what his boss has to say and making him feel heard.
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And if he approaches it that way, I think a pretty uncomfortable conversation could become a really productive one.
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It just takes, you know, the presence and the planning to make sure that it comes from the right place.
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Yeah, and if done well, this could lead to a position where you re one of the few people your boss is actually comfortable with and you become his favorite even though you came into it almost critiquing his management style, right?
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I had a manager a long time ago who was
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Insanely passionate about the work that we did.
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I was a management consultant for four years and she was insanely dedicated, super passionate, but just.
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Incredibly hard to get along with, not clear in her direction, probably very similar to the manager in this, in this email.
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And when I approached that conversation, I remember starting it and I don t know why I decided to do this, but it just came out.
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I was like, look, I, I think that it s pretty obvious to me that nobody in this company cares about this project more than you, you are the person driving it forward.
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And because you are, I think you demand a lot from the people around you and that you probably asking for things in a way that s not getting you the results that you want.
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So let s talk about it and let s try to both get better.
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And I can t tell you how much that changed the tone of the whole thing, you know, like crediting somebody for having the passion and the desire to actually make it good, starts it off on a note that will get you so much further than approaching it from the perspective of here s how I think you need to change.
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Yeah, if somebody told me, when people come to me and say, look, I know the reason that you re micromanaging the crap out of everyone is because you care so much about the brand.
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I can t be like, what, I m not doing that.
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I usually say, yeah, you re right.
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That s the only thing I can say is yeah, you re right, because that is the reason.
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And I m not even debating the point.
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Sometimes I m like, am I that bad?
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And they re like, no, no, it s fine.
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It s just, you know, please do it all at once in the beginning of a project or proofread the whole thing.
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Don t go every phase and write us emails about how much everything stinks.
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And I m like, that s fair, right?
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Although maybe I m more reasonable than other people.
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Although I doubt that.
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Gabriel, did you have anything else to add before we wrap up?
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I think that pretty much nailed it.
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But yeah, it definitely is easier with a reasonable person.
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A largely reasonable person would probably respond pretty well to a conversation like what we just outlined.
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An unreasonable person might just shut down and get defensive and not even want to hear it.
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And if that s the case, then those are the kinds of circumstances that make people want to change jobs.
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That s okay.
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I mean, that happens all the time, right?
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But I think it s worth having that conversation and giving it a shot before he looks elsewhere.
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Great.
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Next question, Jason.
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Jordan, my wife is a direct sales team leader and might be facing a team crisis.
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It s an all ladies company and it appears that one of the girls may have stolen from at least three others, including my wife.
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She s worried that if she proceeds with an investigation, whether or not the person is guilty, that it could tear the team apart and break down trust between them.
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My wife s been very successful over the last year by focusing on team building and has one of the highest success rates in the company.
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Her team is successful and she s worried that much of her work is going to go down the drain because of the investigation.
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What leadership practices and tactics do you recommend for a leader in this position?
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I think it s pretty clear the investigation is going to move forward, but how can she mitigate the negative effects of the team discovering a Judas in their midst?
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Thanks very much, love the show, and can t wait to hear back.
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Best wishes, A.B.
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This one is tough because it s kind of like, well, your ship has a hole in the hull because of rust.
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What you have to do is knock out the rust and then patch it up.
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But you don t want to do that while you re out at sea.
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So the timing on this really depends.
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And Gabriel, I m sure you can shed more light on this, but I wouldn t want to do it in the middle of a huge project where this person plays a pivotal role just because of the stress it d put on everybody else.
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But how much stealing, if I come and work for you, how much can I steal before you fire me?
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That s the question, right?
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And the answer should be zero.
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The answer should absolutely be zero.
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And of course, there are better times and worse times to take somebody off of a team.
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But the fact is, if this person is stealing, then this team is already being torn apart, even if they don t know it.
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And the trust among the team members is for sure already breaking down.
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I think if this guy s wife is really a great team leader, as he says she is, then she will find a way to resolve this in a quick and responsible way, or certainly she should.
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That s the definition of a good leader.
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Yeah, you know, for me, I m trying to, this is not the same situation, but when I was 17 or 16 years old, I worked at a movie theater, and we would all go into the break room.
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We hated our bosses, and they were just awful, and they all got caught stealing, which I think is really funny and ironic, but we would go and be like, I m eating gummy bears, because they didn t give me a lunch break, and I m starving, and so we d go take gummy bears, and the thing is, all the employees knew which other employees were going in the stock room and eating gummy bears and candy.
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We all knew who that was.
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The management and the ownership was the last to find out who that was.
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So my point here is...
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If your wife is the team leader, and she knows someone is stealing, but she s afraid other people are gonna find out, and the trust is gonna be affected, they probably already know.
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Your wife is probably the last person who found out.
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She s probably the last piece of the puzzle, which means that by the time she found out, the instant she found out, it was probably already late enough where the damage had been done.
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Every minute that you wait before you take action, now that everyone knows that you know, probably, or at least they all know that she should know,
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is just more damage being done, right?
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You re now grinding on the metal.
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This person needs to go yesterday.
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And as far as mitigating negative effects, this guy mentioned that his wife is concerned about how it might look and what the repercussions might be of bringing it to the light.
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I think he should tell his wife to have a candid conversation with her team
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about values and expectations.
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I can t imagine that if my boss came to me and my colleagues and said, listen, here s what s been going on for the last few months.
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I find it unacceptable and I want to make sure that our team never has to deal with that kind of thing again.
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No, I wouldn t, I wouldn t feel anything but positive feelings about that person.
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I d feel like I m in good hands.
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I d feel more trusting.
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I d feel like I m being taken care of.
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I d feel like this is a person who cares about the quality of the environment.
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So it sounds like maybe his wife is a little bit concerned about the office politics, which I can understand, but.
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If she explains why she s doing this and makes everybody feel taken care of, I can t imagine how she wouldn t look like a better team leader.
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SPEAKER_04
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_04
All right, Jason, next.
2
SPEAKER_02
First of all, I have to say that AOC is the bomb dot com and I recommend your show to everyone I talk to.
2
SPEAKER_02
But obviously, I m here to ask about my problems.
2
SPEAKER_02
So let s cut to it.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m working my second big girl job out of college.
2
SPEAKER_02
This job is at a smaller company than my first, and the small size is allowing me to grow and expand into new roles and learn a lot.
2
SPEAKER_02
I enjoy the challenge and the novelty of my job.
2
SPEAKER_02
My issue is that I have a horrible boss.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m sensing a theme today.
2
SPEAKER_02
Sure, everyone thinks that their boss is horrible, but mine is a serious problem.
2
SPEAKER_02
He s the son of the company s owner and one year out of school.
2
SPEAKER_02
Basically, he wanted to take over my department, had my director laid off, and set himself up in her place.
2
SPEAKER_02
He s completely inexperienced in every way, but believes he s doing a great job.
2
SPEAKER_02
He read the One Minute Manager once and felt that that was all he ever needed to know about management.
2
SPEAKER_02
He s never had a real job, and since he was born into a privileged life, he has no idea how to relate to his employees.
2
SPEAKER_02
He s condescending and a chronic mansplainer.
2
SPEAKER_02
In short, I have no respect for this guy, and I can t help but show it in my attitude and actions at work.
2
SPEAKER_02
My work is great, but I am so unfriendly to him that I m concerned I ll be fired.
2
SPEAKER_02
How do I find it in me to show this guy respect at work, even though I don t think he really deserves it?
2
SPEAKER_02
How can I be grateful that I m employed in my industry with a challenging and interesting role?
2
SPEAKER_02
Or should I just find another job?
2
SPEAKER_02
I ve been here for a little less than a year, and I have no savings to speak of, so leaving before I find a new job is sadly out of the question.
2
SPEAKER_02
I like my role here, but I just can t deal with my manager.
2
SPEAKER_02
Please help.
2
SPEAKER_02
Anonymous.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, this totally sucks, because I m just imagining some little squirt mansplain.
2
SPEAKER_04
I mean, it s just everything, she s very articulate.
2
SPEAKER_04
This email was actually irritating, right?
2
SPEAKER_04
Because she s really good at explaining how irritating this person is.
2
SPEAKER_04
And I can imagine them being your boss, a decade younger, telling you how things are done because they ve read a webpage about it or something.
2
SPEAKER_04
You know, it s ugh.
2
SPEAKER_04
Gabriel, what can be done here?
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, man.
2
SPEAKER_01
Again, I empathize so much with this girl.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is very similar to the letter from the junior programmer, but there s a twist because this guy is the son of the company s owner.
2
SPEAKER_01
So there are some precarious dynamics at work here.
2
SPEAKER_01
Basically, I think she also has three choices.
2
SPEAKER_01
She could muddle through and learn to work with this guy however she can, or she can try to resolve the issues either with him directly or someone else at the company, which might be his dad, or she could find another job.
2
SPEAKER_01
What s
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I guess, you know, we could walk through the costs and the benefits again of each, and probably she s already done that in her mind.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I think the important thing is that in the short term, she has to continue to do the best possible work she can do and to put her personal feelings about this guy aside, at least for the moment.
2
SPEAKER_01
Now that s important.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s hard, but it s really important because no matter what she does, whether she talks to him or whether she looks for another job or changes her role, it s the quality of her work that s going to determine her success, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like,
2
SPEAKER_01
It s going to be so much about what she s doing at this company, despite this guy, as opposed to the story of how she worked under a really terrible guy.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, and it sucks for the kid s dad because he probably thinks his son s going to get the hang of it and that everybody s fine because nobody s said anything.
2
SPEAKER_04
And then he s suddenly going to see productivity go down and see his all-stars start to peel off and leave.
2
SPEAKER_04
And he ll just be lucky that if one of them on the way out the door during the exit interview says, I just can t work for your son anymore, he s terrible.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and it s unfortunate that we have to wait until that exit interview to find out the truth about what s going on in our own companies.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, like, if this guy were a great boss, he would already be on top of that.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I guess if you were a great boss, his son wouldn t be difficult to work with.
2
SPEAKER_01
But there s another aspect to this letter, Jordan, I think we should probably get into for a second, which is that
2
SPEAKER_01
It sounds like she s having a lot of trouble putting aside her feelings about this guy and hiding her reactions, which I completely understand because I ve been there.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like I ve worked with people.
2
SPEAKER_01
I feel like, you know, who are difficult and it s just really hard to hide how you feel at work, especially.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Um, chances are, I think this guy, her boss and her colleagues already probably know how she feels about him.
2
SPEAKER_01
It sounds like she s pretty transparent.
2
SPEAKER_01
which only is creating a more toxic and awkward work environment, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
So I would say maybe also notice the ways in which your reactions are making the situation worse.
2
SPEAKER_01
Not that you re not justified in feeling that way, I completely get it, but you have to take ownership over the role that you re now playing in this dysfunctional relationship by making it clear how much you dislike this person as opposed to, this is the way it is for the moment, let me do what I need to do to make sure we do the best possible work.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, it s, I couldn t keep my head clear, probably, because I would be so annoyed, and I just can t, it s hard for me to hide things like that.
2
SPEAKER_04
I don t have good practice doing it, because I don t have to here, being self-employed, but I, oh man, I empathize.
2
SPEAKER_04
And I m glad, Gabriel, that you re here to give a recommendation on this, because for me, I just, my only solution to a lot of these is like, leave.
2
SPEAKER_04
You know, it s terrible.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that might be the best choice for her,
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think people can surprise you.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if she decides to bring it up with him and have the same kind of conversation we talked about with the junior programmer, and I would say, go back and listen to that again and see if it fits, then things could get better.
2
SPEAKER_01
I, my hopes are not that high cause it s a family company, but it is possible.
2
SPEAKER_01
I d say in the meantime, my recommendation, keep focusing on doing great work, focus on the things you do love about this job, which it sounds like you re already doing.
2
SPEAKER_01
That gratitude is so important.
2
SPEAKER_01
you know, keep developing yourself and building relationships outside of work because, you know, you might want to start informally looking for another position and maybe that s the best way to handle it.
2
SPEAKER_01
But if you do all of those things simultaneously and stay positive and productive, I m confident that you will end up exactly where you want to be and you ll probably be a better person for it.
2
SPEAKER_00
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SPEAKER_03
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2
SPEAKER_04
Perfect.
2
SPEAKER_04
All right, Jason, the next.
2
SPEAKER_02
Hey Jordan and Jason, something odd happened to me the other day and I was hoping for some advice on preventing it in the future.
2
SPEAKER_02
Over the last year, I ve been trying to become a better person, thanks in no small part to your show.
2
SPEAKER_02
And part of that includes improving my career.
2
SPEAKER_02
At an interview with a company that I m genuinely excited to work with, one of the interviewers said something that I didn t have a good answer for.
2
SPEAKER_02
To paraphrase, why don t I want to hire you?
2
SPEAKER_02
On paper you re perfect, but after meeting with you I have concerns.
2
SPEAKER_02
You have all these skills and experience, but you re not traditionally employed.
2
SPEAKER_02
While I have a lot of skills and experience, the majority of it is from various freelance gigs and failed entrepreneurial
3
SPEAKER_03
endeavors.
3
SPEAKER_03
I admit that my career suffered a lot from a bout of post-grad lack of direction, but even at my worst slacker, I still focused on learning new skills.
3
SPEAKER_03
How do I frame my experience and my recent personal growth in a way that will prevent this from happening again?
3
SPEAKER_03
Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me.
3
SPEAKER_03
Confused Candidate.
3
SPEAKER_01
Jason, did you have coffee this morning?
3
SPEAKER_01
I had several.
3
SPEAKER_01
Why?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because your hey in the beginning of this question just redlined all my meters.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was trying to be exciting and ready to go.
3
SPEAKER_01
I appreciate it.
3
SPEAKER_00
It sounded pretty good on my end.
3
SPEAKER_01
It sounded great.
3
SPEAKER_01
Leave it in.
3
SPEAKER_01
Leave it in.
3
SPEAKER_01
But see, with this guy, this question, I think we need a term for this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not red herring, really, but he s kind of guiding us.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re seeing a smoke signal here that s not quite what I think is accurate.
3
SPEAKER_01
He says, well, why don t I want to hire you on paper?
3
SPEAKER_01
You re perfect, but after meeting with you, I have concerns.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let s put a hard break in between there and then read the next line, which is, you have all these skills and experience, but you re not traditionally employed.
3
SPEAKER_01
Those two things, in my mind, have nothing to do with one another.
3
SPEAKER_01
If they called you in there, they don t care that you re not traditionally employed, or they did and they were expecting you to diffuse that some way and you didn t.
3
SPEAKER_01
But what it sounds like is they went, hey, this guy s not traditionally employed, but it s probably fine.
3
SPEAKER_01
Look at all these skills he has on paper.
3
SPEAKER_01
Then you showed up and something that you did or did not do during that interview made them not want to hire you.
3
SPEAKER_01
It has nothing to do with your skills or your past, because if it did, they would have just not called you back, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think that s actually something we absolutely need to talk about because it s sort of in between the lines of his email.
3
SPEAKER_00
First of all, let s take a moment to thank this interviewer for asking you like the question you need to ask yourself right now, which is why aren t I hireable, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like you called this an odd interview was your word, but this could have been the interview that changes your life if you choose to listen to it and figure out what you need to change.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think there are two parts of it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Jordan, you nailed it with the personal, you know, the personality element of a good interview.
3
SPEAKER_00
Before that comes into play though, it sounds like he s really asking, how do I tell my story?
3
SPEAKER_00
I have an unusual story, so how do I explain it to people and make them feel like I m an attractive candidate?
3
SPEAKER_00
I think this guy s job right now is to work on that short, clear, concise story that explains who he is and why he s going to bring value to the company.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s the glue that will hold your resume together.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it ll communicate who you are, not just what you know and what you can do, which is what you touch on in the email.
3
SPEAKER_00
The good news is it sounds like he has all the pieces of that in place.
3
SPEAKER_00
He just needs to make them fit together.
3
SPEAKER_00
So knowing that he has a non-traditional background, I would say, take some time to craft a story that weaves together all of those skills and experiences and perspectives, but gets out in front of the objections that he knows are going to start coming like, well, you ve never had a traditional job.
3
SPEAKER_00
You have some gaps in your resume, like.
3
SPEAKER_00
He needs to start to address those and make them make sense.
3
SPEAKER_00
He doesn t need to be a traditional candidate to get a good job.
3
SPEAKER_00
He just has to be the right candidate.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that gets into your other point, which is, you know, is this guy the sort of person people want to hire?
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s a much harder question, don t you think?
3
SPEAKER_01
I do because the story alone might not be, well it s definitely not the whole equation here.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know plenty of people at startups, and this is sort of a Silicon Valley thing so throw this out if you think it doesn t apply, but I know a lot of people that get hired for positions where
3
SPEAKER_01
What the founders really liked or the hiring managers or HR, what they really liked was the level of enthusiasm and likability.
3
SPEAKER_01
And sure, some of these positions were like HR, customer service and sales.
3
SPEAKER_01
But unless it s an engineering – actually, especially if it s an engineering job, if they called you back, you have the qualifications.
3
SPEAKER_01
They would not bother wasting their time otherwise.
3
SPEAKER_01
So something in the interview did or did not happen that was additionally not made up for in likability, rapport, enthusiasm, etc.
3
SPEAKER_00
And no interviewer is going to stop and say, you know, I would have hired you, but you re just kind of a dick or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_00
Nobody s going to tell you that to your face.
3
SPEAKER_01
You failed to build sufficient rapport with me.
3
SPEAKER_01
No, they just go, well, I m not feeling this guy.
3
SPEAKER_03
The interesting thing about this, though, is that he said that I want to hire you, but I can t because of something that doesn t feel right.
3
SPEAKER_03
You know, so most people would just say, oh, I m sorry, you re not a fit and move on.
3
SPEAKER_03
So that s kind of the weird bit about this, that the interviewer actually came out and said that this is kind of a problem with how I perceive you and perceive what you ve told me.
3
SPEAKER_03
So maybe he didn t actually believe him.
3
SPEAKER_03
So I think that comes back to, you know, telling the story properly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or he wanted the guy to go, look, I m really nervous, so I m being a little weird.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, okay.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not like, nope, this is me.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is what you re gonna get.
3
SPEAKER_01
And they re like, mm, pass.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think you guys are both nailing it.
3
SPEAKER_00
The story is not enough.
3
SPEAKER_00
He also has to be inviting and trustworthy and personable, which might be where he s struggling a little bit.
3
SPEAKER_00
And ultimately, there are two parts of the equation when it comes to getting an offer.
3
SPEAKER_00
One is, do I think you re gonna add value to my company?
3
SPEAKER_00
That one s pretty straightforward, I think.
3
SPEAKER_00
The much harder and softer part of it, harder and softer, meaning like it s tougher to nail.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s also harder to pin down is do I like you?
3
SPEAKER_00
And do I trust you?
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And at this stage of his career, given his freelance jobs and his spotty resume, like he needs someone to invest in him and take a chance.
3
SPEAKER_00
So he needs to be the kind of person who s worth investing in and who inspires that chance.
3
SPEAKER_00
So in terms of nuts and bolts, when you say probably I would start by going back and listening to the AOC toolbox episodes.
3
SPEAKER_00
About all of those subjects, trust, rapport, connection.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I would even check out the social capital program because you guys cover all of that stuff in insane detail.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think if he works on that side of the equation, he might actually get some results in the future interviews.
3
SPEAKER_01
Agreed.
3
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
3
SPEAKER_00
My pleasure.
3
SPEAKER_00
That was super fun.
3
SPEAKER_01
Hope y all enjoyed that, don t forget you can email us friday at theartofcharm.com to get your questions answered on the air.
3
SPEAKER_01
A link to this blog post can be found at theartofcharm.com slash fmf73.
3
SPEAKER_01
Hey, also, of course, as I mentioned earlier, we ve deemed this month Social Capital Month, so we ve got a goal here to teach you how to apply a new way of thinking around the idea of your network is your net worth.
3
SPEAKER_01
Some of you may have heard that before.
3
SPEAKER_01
Check out the free video training series we re running here at theartofcharm.com slash network.
3
SPEAKER_01
Check it out now.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re gonna do this now.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re gonna take them down later, not in a fake way.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know I hate when people are like, it s only up for three days.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re actually gonna be incorporating them into something else that is not free.
3
SPEAKER_01
So go ahead and check it out.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a little experiment.
3
SPEAKER_01
Tell us what you think, theartofcharm.com slash network.
3
SPEAKER_01
Quick shoutouts to Bill Durfee.
3
SPEAKER_01
He listens to the show with his 18-year-old daughter.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love that.
3
SPEAKER_01
He wrote and said, I can finally share this with her, and I really appreciate that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And Dylan F., who listens in Manhattan because his girlfriend turned him on to the show.
3
SPEAKER_01
I dig that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Ladies, tell your men about AOC.
3
SPEAKER_01
Are you in a strange land listening to my familiar voice?
3
SPEAKER_01
If so, hit me up and I d love to shout you out.
3
SPEAKER_01
More from AOC at theartofcharm.com, including info on our live residential boot camps that we run every single week here in LA.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you want to really dig into this stuff and work on your AOC skills with us as your coaches, that s bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now stay charming, get out there and connect, and leave everyone better than you found them.
3
SPEAKER_02
Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
3
SPEAKER_02
Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.