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This is the art of charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re talking with networking and interviewing expert, Michelle Lederman.
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This episode is chock full of practical examples on how to perfect the art of the interview and land the job.
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We discuss presenting your best self, how to handle tricky questions, how to follow up after the interview, and a lot more.
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And with that, welcome to the Art of Charm.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
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If you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the toolbox where we discuss body language and nonverbal communication, persuasion, networking, negotiation, and everything else we teach here at AOC.
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In the US, just text charmed to 33444.
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That s C-H-A-R-M-E-D.
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Everywhere else, go to theartofcharm.com.
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We may not have all the right answers,
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but we definitely have all the right questions.
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All right, let s talk to Michelle Lederman.
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I won t beat your bio to death because you ve been on the show before, but communication is your bag, connection is your bag, and you do a lot of corporate consulting, but what I like about the new book, Nail the Interview, Land the Job, is it s all about interviewing and getting a job.
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There s no fluff in there.
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It s very practical, how-to, not a lot of flowery language, 95% content, which I can appreciate it.
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I ve read most of it in a few hours, so I really appreciate the new work here.
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Thank you.
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That s the goal is really getting very tactical, get you where you want to go.
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Yeah, I think it s important to have guides like this, because the problem is, if you re trying to get a new job, you re doing a bunch of things, and I ll let you tell us what we re supposed to be doing, but the problem is, then you re also trying to research best practices.
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So there s 8,000 books about the job and the industry.
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The book you re reading about how to nail the interview, that one should be short, not a treatise on the subject of human interaction.
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Oh God, no, yeah, no, we just need to know what are the phases, what are the things, what are the tips and tricks, and how do I make this work?
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Right, listeners of the show know, oh, the biology behind rapport and how trust works and evolutionary psychology.
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If you re just trying to get a job, you re like, that s great, what do I need to wear, right?
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Exactly.
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So where do we start?
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Your first chapter here, Stop Playing Mind Games, I thought,
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Alright, this sounds like a catchy little title, I ll read this.
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And I was pleasantly surprised by the content because you never really think of getting a job as kind of a mental game, but there s a lot of stuff we do to ourselves that essentially ensures our imminent destruction when we walk into the interview if we re doing this.
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We are always playing mind games.
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We are so as a human nature in our heads.
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And there s so many different games that we play, whether it s should I or shouldn t I say that or where that or what are they looking for?
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And how do I be that?
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And then there s the common one.
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Sorry.
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And I ve caught myself doing that a lot.
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Sorry.
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Sorry.
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Just constantly apologize.
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And and that reads as if we feel we re not worthy.
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And if you don t think you re worthy for a job, you ve already lost it.
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being or trying to be something else.
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In your book you call that charades.
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Let s dive into that a little bit deeper because I think it s a little nuanced and I think it s counterintuitive, right?
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Shouldn t we be trying to be the exact fit for the company?
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Isn t that what they re looking for?
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Shouldn t we be that?
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Well, that s really why we re in a mind game because a lot of people going in think, oh, well, this is what they re looking for.
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Let me show them exactly that and I ll get the job.
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But the truth is the interviewer is trying to answer three questions.
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No matter what they ask you, they re only trying to figure out three things.
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One, can this person do the job?
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Two, does this person want to do the job?
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And three, are they fit with the company?
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And when you go in and you try to act as if you think they want you to, they re not really able to answer that third question because they re not really getting a sense of the real you and the true you.
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Right, so you end up screening in a job that you think, oh, this is great, I got it, and then suddenly it s not the job that s a fit for you, it s the job that s a fit for your fake personality that you put on during the interview process.
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Exactly.
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And I will tell you a personal story.
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Back in my business school days, I was doing the rounds of consulting interviews.
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And there was one firm I really wanted to work for.
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It was what you d call the Harvard of consulting firms.
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And I was going through interview upon interview, and they were all going great.
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It was fantastic.
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And I was being my absolute self.
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And I went through seven rounds, seven rounds of interviews, and I didn t get the job.
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And you ll say, well, there you go.
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You should have been playing charades.
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But the truth is that I am so grateful that I did not get that job because if I had gotten that job, I would have taken it in a heartbeat and I would not have fit in.
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I would have been miserable.
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I would not have been successful because I did not fit the mold that they were looking for.
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Right, so you would have screened yourself into this, you had to play like, alright, I really know what I m doing, I m corporate, blah, blah, blah.
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Same thing that we all did on Wall Street, where we had to be like, I love working 15 hours a day, seven days a week, this is my life, I love spreadsheets.
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And then you get there and you re like, why are there so many spreadsheets?
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Why am I here every day?
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It s what you signed up for.
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And they think, oh, this guy s a great fit, he has no life.
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Yeah, exactly.
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You re kind of expected to play that game in certain jobs, though, because I think for most of the people they hire, they really don t care about whether it s a fit for you.
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They just want to know if they can work you to death.
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And earlier on in your career, that is probably more accurate.
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We burn and churn in a lot of industries.
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I come out of finance as well.
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I ve been in consulting.
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Those are industries.
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Law is another one that is burn and churn.
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You get a huge class in and you see who can last.
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It s almost like doctors, only more extreme.
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You just hire as many people as you can, and you burn them out, and the ones that stay, miserable or not, they re the ones that end up making it to partner level, because it s all about just billing hours as many as humanly possible.
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And the truth is, one of the things I try to do in this book is give special attention to some of those groups.
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So the new graduates, the returning parents, as well as people who ve been laid off.
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So they have some special issues of all of their own that they need to think about.
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So these new grads that are coming in and there s huge classes, even though you know you might just be a workhorse and a grunt for a couple of years because you need that experience for whatever capacity of your career you re in, then you still want to think about how to make it work the best you can.
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So for example,
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When I was coming out of business school, I wanted to do the consulting track.
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And I had an internship with one consulting firm, had an offer from them, pretty decent rate, but I didn t really feel my fit and my rhythm there over the summer.
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And I actually took a job with a different consulting firm at a lower rate because of the environment and the culture and the camaraderie, which for me was key.
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And so although I realized very quickly it wasn t a fit in terms of the work for me, it was in terms of the people.
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And I maintained relationships with a lot of those people for many years after I left.
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Perfect.
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So charades, don t pretend to be somebody that you re not.
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Where s the line between pretending you re a fit for a job when you re clearly not versus putting on a really solid professional performance in the interview process?
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Well, that s what s interesting.
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The word performance.
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And I m having a little visceral reaction to the word performance because you do, you view it as a performance.
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And I think that in itself can be a mind game.
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When you do have to kind of step up your game and be polished, but not necessarily performing, because that performing puts us back into that idea of the charades or taboo.
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I m not allowed to say that.
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And so I want to take us out of that performance and just think of yourself as bringing your best self.
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Okay, right, so putting your best foot forward versus putting on a mask to get the gig.
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Well said, yeah.
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Okay, perfect.
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Alright, so no charades, what s the next one?
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So we mentioned Taboo as well.
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Taboo is that game, which I love, where you re not allowed to say certain words or you get buzzed.
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All right, these are named after actual games.
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I see what you did there.
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All right, got it, finally.
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It did click, it took a minute.
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All right, so Taboo, you re not allowed to say certain words.
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What s that during, as it relates to the interview process?
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We are so worried that we re gonna do the wrong thing, one false move, you ll lose everything, and so if anything goes wrong, we start to crumble within the interview.
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And this is why I give one of these little silly little tips that I ll share right now, which people are always like, I never thought of that.
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When you are waiting in the waiting room, I want you to have your briefcase, your purse, your coat, whatever it is on your left side.
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And if it s your coat should be draped over your left arm, your bags that you need to pick up should be by your left side because then when somebody is walking towards you, you can in one clean move, pick that bag up and extend the right arm for a handshake and you are smooth.
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Yeah, so you don t have to do that thing where you re like, oh, hi, oh, wait, hold on, let me switch my coat and then drop my bag, and then, ah, wait, I m holding this other thing, and now it s falling over, so you gotta move it out of the way so no one trips, but your hands are full, so you gotta kick it.
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I guarantee you, half the people who are listening right now are going, oh, I m rolling my eyes, I ve done that.
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And you re so awkward, and once we get that awkward thing, we start to
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get into that taboo place of, I messed up, I did something wrong, and now it s all gonna go down.
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Or they ask a question in the interview, you know, that famous question, what s your greatest weakness?
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I mean, how many times have we been asked that question?
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And we re so afraid to tell them what our weaknesses really are.
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When the truth is, I would a million times rather hire somebody who s aware of what they need to work on, doesn t think they re perfect, than somebody who is completely clueless.
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and not even working on those things that will bring them to the next level.
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Right, so people are of course evaluating the way that you fit in, but some of that happens to be your level of social savvy even in the waiting room then.
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Because I think a lot of folks don t really worry about what happens in the waiting room, they re just trying to lay low.
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I will tell you, your interview actually starts before the interview day.
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I mean, we know the online issues as well.
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But on the interview day, your interview starts as you walk in the front door.
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That s not up there with the reception where you re sitting in the waiting room.
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That s a security, how you treat them, how you are in that way.
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I always take my heels and I put them on outside the door because I know once I m in that door.
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I m on camera, I m being evaluated, and I know many companies who have gone down and talked to security guards.
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Absolutely, I would say probably a large percent of companies go back and talk to whoever s in the waiting room.
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People have lost jobs based on how they treated a receptionist.
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I didn t know that.
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I mean, it makes total sense.
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You don t want somebody who s only nice to you because you have power over them.
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That s not a good person to have in your organization.
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Exactly.
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And so one of the things for me, I know we re all a little nervous in the interview, and that s good.
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I believe nerves are good.
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Nerves tell you this is important to me.
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And so embrace those nerves and use those nerves.
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And so when I m in the meeting room, I will look out a window if I was at time once and I m looking at their bookshelf, or I m so grateful if there s anybody in that waiting room that I can just chat with, because I d rather not sit down and never take out your phone because then you re completely in another place.
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And so if there s somebody there, you chat with them.
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And now, yesterday, I was at a law firm.
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And as the managing partner was walking me out, I said to the receptionist, I said, Is it still in your head?
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Because I got the song in her head.
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And she s laughing with me.
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And so now this, you know, head of the law firm is going, What s going on here?
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already has an inside joke with our receptionist, who he trusts and has probably worked there for a decade and a half, right?
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Exactly.
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It makes an impression, it makes them curious to want to know more.
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I love that.
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The mind games, psyching ourselves out or not being mentally ready for the interview, you do tell a lot of that in the book as well.
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So are there things we can do before the interview even begins to help us figure out the culture piece?
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Because it seems like it would be great
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if we could not do a dozen job interviews, six of which we could have avoided if we thought, okay, I m completely not gonna be happy here, I shouldn t even bother.
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Absolutely.
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There s a lot of things that you want to do pre-interview.
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At this day and age with the technology that s out there, with the information that s out there, it s expected that you re doing a certain level of research.
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Obviously, you want to go to the company website.
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You want to make sure that you are versed in the things that they re putting out there.
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You want to go to the company s social media.
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You want to Google the company, see how they ve been in the news lately.
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But really,
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your LinkedIn or go to your contacts and search on the company that you re interviewing with and figure out who s worked there in the past or who works there now that you can take out for a cup of coffee and just get their take.
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And if you can get a list of the names of the people that you re interviewing with, even better.
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Look them up on LinkedIn.
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Figure out what interests you have in common.
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I had one interview that I spent the entire interview talking about poetry, I think animal rescue, and maybe skiing.
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And I walked out with a offer letter in hand.
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Nice, because of course you basically just did counterintelligence on your future employer.
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And that s that culture piece that we re talking about.
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Can we hang out if we re going to have to work all hours and you re going to grind me into the ground?
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Then can I tolerate you for that long?
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You spend more of your life with the people you work with and the people that you are part of your family.
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Right, so since they re screening you for this, you might as well screen them for the same thing first before you do the interview and waste everybody s time, including your own, especially if you re juggling a lot of different firms and potential different offers, some of which are time-sensitive.
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You don t want to wait a week to reply to an offer that would be a good fit because you re busy interviewing with six other firms that are not a good fit for you.
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Absolutely.
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So you want to do a lot of your groundwork ahead of time.
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You re going to be talking to those people because that s where you re really going to get the true insight and ask their opinion of the other firms as well.
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What s the reputation?
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I mean, when I was doing my finance interviewing, every firm had a reputation and you knew it.
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If you went out there and just talked to a few people, you would get that clear sense of the reputation of each of those firms very, very quickly.
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Interesting, right, the ones that pay the most are the ones that, you just know, look, you have nothing else but this job, that s why we pay you that little bit above top market, right?
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And that s the whole point, you re gonna be married to it.
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And then other people say, well, I value a little bit of my sanity, so they take a regular market or an upper market job.
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And there s other people who maybe,
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don t want those at all and are in it for more of a lifestyle thing or maybe they even want to work part-time.
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They re not even going to be interviewing at the same types of places.
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But if you don t screen that stuff out, you re going to waste a lot of your time and frankly, probably end up doing yourself a massive disservice because if you interview all over town, does that not look bad for you at some level?
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It really does depend to some extent on where you are in your career.
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I don t think it s a problem to go on a lot of interviews.
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I do think that you need to be quickly responsive and have a clear sense of where you want to be.
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You need to, in your own mind, have a, this is my top choice.
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Because oftentimes companies will say, well, which is your top choice?
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Or, you know, if I give you an offer, are you going to accept it?
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If you re hesitant with that for even a second, that could be the difference of you getting the offer or not.
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Because like, well, if you don t really want to work here,
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Right, especially if they have a bunch of candidates, which nowadays they totally do.
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This is completely different from my interviewing process where law firms were trying to hire graduates from schools like Michigan, and they were competing against each other.
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You could leverage an offer against another one.
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It depends on industry, it depends on economy.
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And it depends on how good you are.
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Right, if you have 15 years of experience, maybe that s the case.
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If you re straight out of school, in this economy, not gonna happen most likely.
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You know, when I graduated from undergrad, at the time, there was six accounting firms, and yes, I m dating myself, and I had interviews with all of them, and that wasn t a bad thing.
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It was actually like, oh, she s interviewing with all of them, and I had offers from almost all of them, and so it was a little bit of something that I could leverage.
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That s not the economy we re in anymore.
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Right, maybe in certain sorts of elite coding and computer-type stuff you can, but engineering, things like that, but otherwise, not so much.
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Elsewhere in the book, you detail what to wear, how to overdress exactly, not ridiculously, but a certain amount, and you recommend picking your outfit a few days earlier.
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Why is that?
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That seems like not something you need to have done 72 hours in advance.
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You would be surprised when you put that outfit that you think of in your head on, and then there s a stain on the tie, and there s a rip in the stockings, and you don t have another pair, or it just really
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feel good in it.
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You have to feel good in what you re wearing.
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So not only do I recommend that you pick it out, I recommend you put it on, including the shoes.
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The shoes might be a little bit more for the women than the men, but they re gonna kill your feet.
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I ve had people who ve made me climb stairs during an interview in these heels.
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When you re on those all-day interviews and you re going between people and people and people, you need to have shoes that can last throughout the day.
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Right, especially if they re like, oh, it s nice out, let s walk three blocks to lunch.
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Oh yeah, I ve had that one.
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Have you seen my shoes?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s actually really typical, especially for larger firms in consulting and law, where they might say, look, come for a summer interview, or this is a summer associate thing, and they re hiring in spring, they re gonna wanna walk around outside.
2
SPEAKER_01
Anything in New York, you re gonna walk somewhere, almost for sure.
2
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I can definitely see trying things on and making sure like, oh, the heel just came right off of this after three steps, or this doesn t actually work with these particular socks, or this outfit doesn t work for some reason.
2
SPEAKER_01
You want, this is a dress rehearsal, so literally you need to dress for the part.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, I ve actually had clients who sent me pictures of outfits to say which one should I wear.
2
SPEAKER_00
And part of my question for them is, well, how do you feel in them?
2
SPEAKER_00
You want to make sure that you feel
2
SPEAKER_00
You feel powerful.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I do not shy away from color.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know different industries will feel differently about this.
2
SPEAKER_00
And yes, in finance and law, you have to be a little bit more conservative.
2
SPEAKER_00
You won t necessarily wear a colored shirt beyond white or blue, but you can have maybe a stripe or a bit of color in your tie.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, red is a power color.
2
SPEAKER_00
Gold is a great color on an interview.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if you re so bland sometimes that, oh, that was the one who wore the red tie, that helps you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Ah, interesting.
2
SPEAKER_01
But not your whole outfit being a bright green slash bright orange mess.
2
SPEAKER_01
Just a little splash of color?
2
SPEAKER_00
A little splash of color, whether it s the handkerchief, the tie.
2
SPEAKER_00
For women, it could be one statement piece.
2
SPEAKER_00
So a really nice necklace.
2
SPEAKER_00
I would shy away from big earrings because you want them to focus on your face and not be distracted by the earrings.
2
SPEAKER_00
So when I go for a statement piece, I either go for a necklace or maybe a pin, a scarf possibly, but sometimes the scarf can get in the way and women have a tendency of playing with their clothing.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know because I do and all of a sudden you start twirling your scarf and that s not going to be good.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
I can definitely understand not wanting to have anything distracting.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m the type of person that might fidget with something, so I don t wear watches, and I don t wear little doodads, or even have pens on the outside that I can grab and then go click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, because then people will go, what are you doing?
2
SPEAKER_01
I m gonna kill you.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m certainly not hiring you.
2
SPEAKER_00
And here s one more thing, take all the change out of your pocket.
2
SPEAKER_00
That is critical.
2
SPEAKER_00
First of all, you re gonna make noise every time you walk somewhere, but second, you re gonna find yourself tapping your pocket, or putting your hand in your pocket, and then you re playing with it, because it s just giving you something to do.
2
SPEAKER_00
And this is more of men.
2
SPEAKER_00
Women tend to play with their clothes, men tend to fidget.
2
SPEAKER_00
They have all this excess energy in their bodies, and they re gonna find some way to let it out.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so what I want whoever s listening to do, whether man or woman, is I want them to really kind of harness that energy,
2
SPEAKER_00
and use it.
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SPEAKER_00
So for example, instead of clicking that pen, right, like that, I want you to take your thumb and your two first fingers and press that pen, right, hold it, you know, as if you re squeezing the life out of it.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you really need something in your hand, I want you to try to break it with those three fingers, because what s going to happen is you re going to exhaust your hands, but your hands look powerful.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I can imagine that being a way to kill some nervous energy.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m envisioning making a false move and flinging the pen with all that pressure across the room or at the interview or something like that and just immediately, it sounds like a Robin Williams sketch or something like that, just fling and it just sticks into the wall.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know what, I would actually love if that happened.
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SPEAKER_00
And for people who are nervous and would die if that happened, then just don t do it with a pen.
2
SPEAKER_00
And instead, what you can do is you can put one thumb up and press your four fingers against your palm and squeeze.
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SPEAKER_00
And so it doesn t look like you re making a fist, but again, you re pointing, you re getting a little of that energy into your hands.
2
SPEAKER_00
You also don t have to use your hands at all to do it.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can clench your toes.
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SPEAKER_00
You can clench your butt cheeks, or your quads.
2
SPEAKER_00
All of that is basically trying to give you a little focus for that energy, so it s not coming out in uncontrolled ways.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, it s like fooling a lie detector.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re clenching everything up and trying to fool yourself, though, instead of the polygraph.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I want to come back to that pen flying across the room, because I love that.
2
SPEAKER_00
If that happened for me right now, it would be this great release of all that tension that you have.
2
SPEAKER_00
If that person across from you can laugh with you, if you can pull that off, I think that speaks volumes to how you handle when things don t go well.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can use those moments.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think about that book, The Pursuit of Happiness.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the guy was in painting clothes for his interview with the investment firm.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so he told the story of what happened.
2
SPEAKER_00
I once went to a speech, I was the speaker, and they sent a car for me, it was raining, I ran outside, grabbed my shoes, I was wearing sneakers because it was raining, and we get to the location, and I put my shoes on, and I realized I did not have shoes from the same pair.
2
SPEAKER_00
And on top of that, I had two left shoes.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh my gosh.
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SPEAKER_01
That s ridiculous.
2
SPEAKER_01
What happened?
2
SPEAKER_00
So I put my two left shoes on, I walked in there, I told them the whole story, I took my shoes off and I did the rest of the speech barefoot and they forgot all about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
but I was actually giving a speech on interviewing, and it was a great teachable moment, because if those things happen, you have to work with them, and it s better to not hide from them, and just own it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like you threw the pen across the room.
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SPEAKER_00
First of all, I would laugh and say, not trying to hurt anybody, or you might just use what works for you.
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SPEAKER_00
It could be like, I guess I m a little nervous.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think that would be what you have to, they have to know that that was an accident, not just like some sort of Tourette s of the right hand.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, so take those moments that might not go exactly as planned and think, how can I make this work for me?
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s like improv.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I like that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, perfect.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s exactly what interviewing is.
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SPEAKER_00
You don t know what s coming and you ve got to work with whatever they throw at you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, not only that, but you have to perform really well with it.
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SPEAKER_01
You can t just sort of dispense with it and then go back to your own track.
2
SPEAKER_01
You really do have to yes and through the whole thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love Yes, And.
2
SPEAKER_00
And there s a lot of unconventional interview styling happening these days.
2
SPEAKER_00
With advanced technology, you ve got the Skype interview, you ve got, the phone interview s always been around, but it s being used more because people don t want to spend the time to meet you in person.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve heard of group interviews, I ve heard of stress interviews, I ve heard of skit interviews, where they actually have groups putting on skits.
2
SPEAKER_01
What kind of job would that possibly?
2
SPEAKER_01
It was actually Whole Foods.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, I could see that.
2
SPEAKER_01
being fun is part of the whole requirement.
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SPEAKER_01
I was gonna say any law firm or consulting firm that does that has got some explaining to do, for sure.
2
SPEAKER_00
The consulting firms like to do case interviews, that s another type of interview.
2
SPEAKER_00
But what s interesting, and I learned a lot about the Whole Foods process, is they put 20, 30 people in a room, and they will cut people just by how they re sitting in their chairs.
2
SPEAKER_01
Really?
2
SPEAKER_01
But what are they looking for?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, you know, think about it.
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SPEAKER_00
You can visualize somebody who, you know, has one foot back, one foot kind of lying out there and he s kind of slouched a little bit in his chair.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like they re not taking it seriously.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re not presenting themselves well.
2
SPEAKER_00
When I tell people to sit in a chair, and I don t know if you read the Oompa Loompa story in the book, but I tell you not to put your back against the back of a chair because it helps keep your energy in your body.
2
SPEAKER_00
and I want you to plant your two feet on the ground.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know some people like to cross one leg over the other and that s fine as long as the leg that is down on the ground is planted.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not up on your toes.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes, ladies, I know we re in heels, but you want to press both the front and back of your foot into the floor.
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SPEAKER_00
What that enables you to do is to have movement in your body, to push off the floor and shift your body around and keep all of that energy up and attentive.
2
SPEAKER_00
When you start to relax a little bit into the back of a chair, when you start to kick that leg that s over your knee, the energy kind of comes in on yourself.
2
SPEAKER_00
And when you are interviewing, you want to take up your space.
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SPEAKER_00
How they perceive you, that confidence that you have in you is about how much space you are taking up.
2
SPEAKER_00
And as somebody who s 4 10 , that s tough.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
You don t have a lot to work with.
2
SPEAKER_00
And yet, I can t tell you how many times people said, oh my God, you re really short, and had been surprised by it.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re like, well, you don t come off short.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, right, the nonverbal communication doesn t stay small.
2
SPEAKER_01
I grew up, and I m not a big guy now, I m 5 10 , but when I was younger, obviously I was much smaller, and I learned the whole body language thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
People don t mess with you if you stand up straight, and you ve got a smile on your face, and you re relatively open, but if you slouch, it s kind of signaling,
2
SPEAKER_01
Either you re tired or you don t want to be seen, et cetera.
2
SPEAKER_01
So if you can make your presence large, and we talk about this a lot in other episodes of Art of Charm, especially the body language toolbox and things like that.
2
SPEAKER_01
You can make your presence large.
2
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t really matter how tall you are physically.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
And one of the things that you want to do as you re sitting in that chair is to bring your shoulders back.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so you re squaring off your chest.
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SPEAKER_00
And what that does is it enables your gestures to be
3
SPEAKER_00
coming from your sides rather than just in front of you.
3
SPEAKER_00
And when you gesture more to the side, again, you re taking up more space.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you come off as more confident.
3
SPEAKER_00
what you re referring to is a little bit of the phases of the interview.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I refer to about five phases of the interview, the rapport building, which we ve been talking about the opening question, which we re about to talk about the core, which is, you know, the interrogation piece, the Canada Q and a, and then the closing.
3
SPEAKER_00
So the opening question is that moment of, all right, we re stopping the chit chat and now we re getting down to business.
3
SPEAKER_00
And they say something like, so tell me about yourself or walk me through your resume.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s these big, broad, bold, open questions that you re like, huh, well, what do you want to know?
3
SPEAKER_00
You know,
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SPEAKER_00
which you can t say.
3
SPEAKER_00
So one of the things that I have people do is really think about, if somebody says, tell me about yourself, what do you want them to know about you?
3
SPEAKER_00
And to really think about the attributes that you think are relevant for the job that you know you have.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s really easy to say, tell me about yourself.
3
SPEAKER_00
I am a strategic thinker that loves to get down into the details, synthesize the data, and then propose innovative solutions.
3
SPEAKER_00
I have a really great visual of the kind of work you wanna do and how you like to do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if you don t have that clarity, you can t give it to somebody else.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you need to prepare this in advance.
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SPEAKER_01
This isn t something you re gonna pick out on the fly.
3
SPEAKER_01
I envision myself as a younger person being like, oh, I could totally handle something like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
But what I probably ended up really doing was making something up that sounded good in my own head and made no sense.
3
SPEAKER_00
We ve all been there.
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SPEAKER_00
going to be able to communicate in those moments.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so that s really going to help calm some of those nerves.
3
SPEAKER_00
So yes, absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s part of your prep as well.
3
SPEAKER_00
That mindset of understanding, well, what are they looking for?
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SPEAKER_00
What are the qualities they put in the job description?
3
SPEAKER_00
And how do I match up?
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SPEAKER_00
What do I think are the most important?
3
SPEAKER_00
And I might even say, you know, in looking at the job description, I would say somebody in this role, the most important qualities are X, Y, and Z. Let me tell you a little bit about how I have, you know, displayed those qualities in my past.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, you can take control of an interview.
3
SPEAKER_00
I wouldn t do it on the first question.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, maybe not on the first question, but that makes sense.
3
SPEAKER_01
I never really thought about that, that you can actually drive.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because the interviewer is often trying to fish for answers that will yield, or questions anyway, or areas that will yield answers that are useful.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if you already know what those areas are, you can just go to them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_00
And what we forget is that the interviewer doesn t interview for a living most of the time.
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe with the HR person or the recruiter, they re used to that.
3
SPEAKER_00
But when you re starting to work with the people and interview with the people that you will eventually be your coworkers, that s not what their job is.
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SPEAKER_00
It s not their priority.
3
SPEAKER_00
They don t know how to do it.
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SPEAKER_00
Most of the time they haven t been trained in how to do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so they re sitting there going, what do I ask next?
3
SPEAKER_00
What do I ask next?
3
SPEAKER_00
and they re as nervous as you are.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if you can make it easier for them, if you can make it more conversational for them, throw some of your questions in, even though I gave you that fourth phase of the interview as the candidate Q&A towards the end, I actually always interspersed questions as I went.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the first time I asked a question, I said, well, can I ask a question?
3
SPEAKER_00
They said, absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_00
And now we have this back and forth, and they are relaxed, and you re creating that feeling of, oh, you know what, I can hang out with that person.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you make it conversational.
3
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely, you don t want it to feel like an interrogation.
3
SPEAKER_00
You don t want them to have to constantly be coming up with all of the content.
3
SPEAKER_00
Help them out.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is useful because I think a lot of people are used to just sitting there, getting asked a bunch of questions, keeping their fingers crossed and hoping it goes well.
3
SPEAKER_01
But if you do take control and you make it conversational, more of a back and forth, of course what the interview then feels is, I feel pretty comfortable with this person and their answers are pretty good, versus somebody where they re like,
3
SPEAKER_01
I guess their answers were okay, but oh, that was awkward.
3
SPEAKER_01
These are all awkward.
3
SPEAKER_01
I hate interviewing people, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, I ve even done things like, Can I tell you a story?
3
SPEAKER_00
If you know, one of the things you re doing your prep is you are you re thinking about your stories, and you re thinking about your examples to show that you ve done and exhibited all these qualities.
3
SPEAKER_00
And maybe they might not ask you about it, they might not give you that opportunity to tell you that great story.
3
SPEAKER_00
And as you re going saying, you know, something just came to my mind that I think it s really applicable to the work I would be doing here.
3
SPEAKER_00
Can I tell you a story?
3
SPEAKER_00
And they ll be like, sure, I m gonna sit back and listen.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, yeah, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let me grab my Blackberry and pretend to be paying attention.
3
SPEAKER_01
So we prepare for the core questions, of course, with the interview core, and then the candidate Q&A, this is something that you can bring in earlier, as you d mentioned, but what is this otherwise?
3
SPEAKER_01
What does this phase actually mean?
3
SPEAKER_00
What you need to understand about this candidate Q&A piece is what you re telling them in your questions.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s obligatory.
3
SPEAKER_00
We say, well, do you have any questions for me?
3
SPEAKER_00
And yes, you have to have questions for them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Otherwise, it s like, well, aren t you interested?
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
No, I m good.
3
SPEAKER_00
When I wrote the book for veterans, because I also did a book for veterans on on this process, a lot of veterans think that you re not supposed to ask questions, you re supposed to just have it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s a misnomer.
3
SPEAKER_00
So what you re really telling them is, what s your decision making criteria?
3
SPEAKER_00
When you ask a question, that should be related to how am I making a decision about whether or not I want this job?
3
SPEAKER_00
What s important to me?
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SPEAKER_00
in the place I work with the people I work with.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I love to ask questions about the interviewer.
3
SPEAKER_00
One, they love talking about themselves.
3
SPEAKER_00
Everybody loves talking about themselves.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that feels good.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you re creating that positive mood memory.
3
SPEAKER_00
But it s also because I m getting insight.
3
SPEAKER_00
I might ask questions about, you know, why did they choose the company?
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SPEAKER_00
What s one thing they would want to change about the company?
3
SPEAKER_00
Where do they see themselves in five or 10 years?
3
SPEAKER_00
They might ask you that question, but it s really interesting when you ask them that question, do they hesitate?
3
SPEAKER_00
Do they think they re still gonna be there?
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Next year, I ll be out of here.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m just interviewing you because I m at this current level and nobody else likes doing this.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you will be able to look, and you don t wanna put them on interrogation, but really just show genuine interest and curiosity about the things that you want to figure out.
3
SPEAKER_00
Is there a career track is something you might be figuring out.
3
SPEAKER_00
I always love to ask, do you consider that you work with coworkers or do you work with your friends?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because I was looking for a collegial environment when I first got out of school, and that was critical for me.
3
SPEAKER_01
I feel like that s a really tough question for someone to be honest.
3
SPEAKER_00
I have gotten both answers.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I actually think it s not that difficult because people will say, yeah, you know, we have a very professional relationship here.
3
SPEAKER_00
We do some activities, but we keep it professional.
3
SPEAKER_00
And some will say, oh yeah, we have happy hour every Thursday.
3
SPEAKER_00
That gives you a really good sense if that s important to you.
3
SPEAKER_00
But what I really want people to understand is you are telling them what s important to you.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if you start asking questions about, well, how much vacation do I get?
3
SPEAKER_00
And this is something that I did early on.
3
SPEAKER_00
I learned from my own mistakes.
3
SPEAKER_00
I always asked about, well, what type of higher education support do they have?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because I was undergrad at the time, and I wanted to go back and get my MBA.
3
SPEAKER_00
And were they going to pay for it?
3
SPEAKER_00
It was basically what I was trying to figure out.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And did they not read between those lines?
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, that was back then, it was still somewhat accepted to ask those type of questions because we didn t have access to information the way that we do nowadays.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so, nowadays you probably have a lot of those answers before you walk in the door.
3
SPEAKER_00
What I was showing was my interest, so I was trying to say, hey, look, I m interested in continuous learning.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, yes, look at me, I d love to keep learning and ideally outgrow this position.
3
SPEAKER_00
But, you know, that probably wasn t the best question to ask because it is telling them something very clearly.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m going to go back to school.
3
SPEAKER_01
How do we handle situations where maybe we re coming back from a long absence?
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe we got laid off or maybe we had a kid and we took a year or two or more away from the game.
3
SPEAKER_01
How do we handle that?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because I feel like coming back in after a layoff or after having a child, you might come in feeling a little uneasy or a little unstable or maybe even a little undesirable.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s when we talk about that game, sorry, that we touched on a little bit at the beginning.
3
SPEAKER_00
That happens for those two groups.
3
SPEAKER_00
They feel that they have to be apologetic.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, you know, I wanted to raise my kids.
3
SPEAKER_00
Bad me, you know, or I got laid off with the rest of the world after 9-11 because I was laid off after 9-11.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, most of us were.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think there s only three people I went to business school with that didn t get laid off at that time.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you have to recognize that you didn t do anything wrong in the decisions that you made or the decisions that were made for you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, if you have been fired, then we have to massage that story a little bit, you know, and help somebody understand to overcome it.
3
SPEAKER_00
But when we talk about layoffs, and we talk about taking time off, don t be apologetic.
3
SPEAKER_00
And understand that you still developed lots of skills while you were out of work, whether it s you were volunteering.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know somebody, he was laid off from a major bank.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he started a startup.
3
SPEAKER_00
It didn t go anywhere, but he was working at it.
3
SPEAKER_00
He was keeping up with the industry.
3
SPEAKER_00
He was he was in there.
3
SPEAKER_00
And now he s back at a full time job.
3
SPEAKER_00
But he was out for a good year and a quarter, year and a half.
3
SPEAKER_00
But he had something to talk about.
3
SPEAKER_00
So don t just sit on your couch, have something to talk about.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you are a mom or a dad who s taking time off to raise the family, and you
4
SPEAKER_01
know eventually you may want to go back.
4
SPEAKER_01
Keep yourself in it in some way and in it in some way could be I run the PTA.
4
SPEAKER_01
It could be I volunteer for this.
4
SPEAKER_01
It could be just I do a blog.
4
SPEAKER_01
Keep yourself in it in some way and keep yourself very active with your network.
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So the message we re trying to convey is, I didn t just check out and now I m gonna have a huge learning curve trying to get back in the game.
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It s, listen, I might not have been in the office, but I ve been paying attention to what s been happening, and I ve been using my time, not necessarily to work on the day-to-day of this, but to keep up with bigger trends in the industry or whatever.
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Absolutely.
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I just got hired to do a talk for New York Junior League, and the woman who called me up, I looked on her LinkedIn profile, and it said something like the manager of her last name s household.
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I loved that.
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She represented that she was managing a family.
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And you are.
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You are dealing with scheduling and organization and details and difficult personalities.
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I mean, you are, I can t tell you how correlated motherhood and management is.
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Well, I can imagine that they re both correlated pretty well, and I think you d have to make that argument less maybe to a woman who has kids of her own in the office.
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I think guys might be like, uh-huh, but it depends.
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If they have kids, then they re probably like, oh, tell me about it.
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I think any parent would get it.
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If you re dealing with somebody who does not have kids, they might not see the correlation as well.
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So you have to draw those lines.
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The most important thing is don t be apologetic.
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Don t play the game.
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Sorry, you have nothing to be sorry for.
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You made choices that were right for you.
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You had a choice that was made for you.
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And you did your best with it.
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And you took that time to really be sure and clear about what you want to do next.
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And you are ready to hit the ground running.
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And that s powerful.
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And that s compelling.
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And I m like, okay,
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We ll come do it for us.
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So how do we button it up?
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How do we close the interview and what do we do right after to follow up?
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The closing is a really interesting phase of the interview because it s just awkward.
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It s just awkward for everybody.
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The guy s interviewing you or the girl s interviewing you saying, well, do you have any more questions?
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And you kind of feel like, well, should I have another one?
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Should I have another one?
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And so you want to give them a cue that you re done.
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So you might say, well, I have one last question.
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Or you might say, well, I don t have any other questions, but I just wanted to reinforce.
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And so sometimes I make a closing statement, like closing arguments.
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I remember doing this when I was interviewed for my position as an adjunct at NYU.
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It was my dream to be a college professor.
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As a kid, I always wanted to be a professor.
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And I went for an interview when there was no position available.
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And they told me that.
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At the end of the interview, she goes, do you have any other questions?
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I said, no, but I just want to make sure that I ve conveyed to you how passionate and excited I am for the opportunity whenever it s available.
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You know, I m ready.
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I am here.
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I can do, you know, and she goes, oh, you ve communicated that.
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Duly noted.
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Get out of my office.
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I want to eat lunch.
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They called me in two weeks and I got a position.
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Oh, nice.
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That apparently didn t exist.
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Great, so closing it up, sort of re-communicating your commitment to the job, do we do anything the day of, the day after, the week after, what does that look like, or do we just sit patiently and wait?
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Yes, but I want to give you one more thing in the closing that nobody usually thinks of.
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One of the things that I will do in a closing is if they say, Oh, do you have any more questions?
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I will make my last question a really risky one.
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And by that, I mean, I will say something like, you know, the only other question I have is to ask you, do you have any concerns about my ability to do this job to its fullest?
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Or is there any quality that you think is, you know, critical for this job that I haven t displayed for you?
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And the reason I think a question like that is so important is that if they think that you have a weakness, or if they have something that is important that they haven t hit, you want to make sure that you take that opportunity, whether it is in that follow up that we ll talk about in a moment, or whether it s right then and there, to disabuse them of whatever misconception they might have, or to give them the additional information that they might need.
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So they re going to think it regardless, you want to make sure you have the opportunity to address it.
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Yeah, I think that s huge because they might not say anything to you, but it s kind of the last ditch effort to say, alright, what holes do I need to plug in my game here?
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Because this is the last opportunity I m gonna have to do it.
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What do you typically hear from people if there is a hole to plug?
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Is it something like, well, we were really looking for somebody with a little more technical or engineering background.
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Do you have anything that might be in place of that?
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I don t know, what are they looking for?
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So the first thing is, when you ask that question, you have to be prepared to actually get an answer.
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You actually want an answer.
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You don t want them to be like, No, no, you know, unless it really is, no, you re great.
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But if there is something there, you want that answer, you want that information.
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And I don t want you to be unsettled by it.
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So if they do say something like, well, we were looking for somebody with a little bit more management experience or technical experience,
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The first thing you might want to do is say, thank you for letting me know.
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I m really glad I have the opportunity to address that a little bit.
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And then I might ask another question for two reasons.
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One, to really get clear on what it is that they think is necessary.
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And two, to buy myself a little thinking time.
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that appreciation is buying yourself a little thinking time.
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And then once you have a little bit more clarity on what they mean by management experience or the ability to scale or whatever it is, you can say, you know what, I can see that you might not see that experience on the resume, but let me tell you about this.
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Or, you know, here s what I think you would need to be able to do to do that.
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And here s why I know that that s not a problem.
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you know, or you just basically want to give them that confidence that even if it s not there, you can do it.
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Or here s what I will do.
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Or here s what I would recommend.
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I also love the question, what advice would you give me once I start, and once I start is a neuro-linguistic process.
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Right, a little assuming the cell right there, right?
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It s a little, you know, programming them to say, you know, what would you advise me once I started here to make sure that I hit things off on the right foot or to be successful?
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What advice would you give me?
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And so now they re already visualizing you starting.
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So those are some little tricks I like at the close.
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Great, so that ll help sort of seal the deal?
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That s part of the sealing of the deal, is getting them thinking of you there, and then of course, as you said, that day of, the next day, you absolutely, absolutely, absolutely have to do the thank you note.
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And I have no problems whatsoever with you doing it via email, and I suggest that you do do it via email within 24 hours, 48 at the max.
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Yeah, because otherwise they ve forgotten who the heck you are.
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They ve already seen 12 people that are dressed very similarly that they ve never seen before.
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It s one of those check boxes.
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It s not going to help you get the job, but it s going to hurt you if you don t do it.
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It is noticed.
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What I would also say is everyone talks about the handwritten note.
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I m lazy.
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I ll admit it.
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I hate mailing letters.
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I don t think I have stamps anymore.
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But what I would say is if you really want that job, if that s your first choice, do the email letter within 24 hours, and then I want you to send the handwritten note on the same day or the next day, and it ll get there a couple days later.
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So one, it s bringing you back into the front of the mind.
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And I want you to think about something that you can add in that letter.
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Maybe it s something that you chatted about in the small talk and you enclose a printout of an article.
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Maybe it s a link that you can even write in there to, hey, you might like this.
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It could be a congratulations about something that was coming up.
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It could be just anything.
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And you really want to think about that throughout the interview, what that follow up could be.
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And it might be, you know, my husband had an interview about a year ago or something as his company was being acquired.
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He was kind of getting himself out there in the market.
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And he came home from that interview feeling like he didn t answer a question well, so in his thank you note, he actually said, you know, I don t feel like I fully answered that question for you, and so one of the things I was thinking about was, and he actually followed up a little bit more with the content right in that thank you note, but it was the second thank you note, not the first one.
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Oh, okay.
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It s like when you re hammering a play structure together for your kids and you go over the nails one last time to make sure they re really in there.
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Exactly.
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It s saying, you know, I ve been really thinking about you.
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I ve reflect, I don t love the word reflected, but I ve reflected, you know?
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And it s not like, oh, I blew this off, it s not a big deal.
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I m in it, I m following through, I ve given it thought.
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So post-thank you note, is that the end?
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Are we done, we just wait?
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I always say the end of the interview is never the end.
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And even a rejection for the job is not the end.
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Because you don t know where they re going to be working next.
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You don t know what other position s going to come up next.
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I actually personally had an interview and I wasn t a right fit for that job, but they called me when another position came up and said, will you come back in and interview for this one?
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And I can tell you dozens of people who ve told me similar stories.
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So continue that relationship, go link into the people that you interviewed with, build relationship beyond.
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And if you don t get the job, one of the things I love to do, they won t always give you feedback, but ask for it.
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Is there any feedback, any advice?
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Is there any specific
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reason that I that I wasn t a fit and they might tell you something that s useful the other thing is tell me a little bit about what you re looking for maybe I know somebody to refer you and now you re really continuing to build that relationship so really it s not just about the job it s about the relationship with the person the individual and the organization.
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In the book, you ve got the interview preparation checklist, 10 questions you d like to ask a headhunter, tips for making the most out of career fairs, resume red flags, getting the most from a career center if you re young and you ve just graduated, career coaches and tips for working with.
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with them and finding the right one, as well as tips for phone interviews, virtual interviews, unconventional approaches.
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So it s a pretty comprehensive guide.
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I don t want to go over all that stuff right now just in the interest of time, but the interview preparation checklist I think is huge because I m that guy who leaves the house and goes, what am I forgetting?
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Or am I forgetting anything?
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And it s cool to have a comprehensive checklist, but also there are things on it that aren t necessarily super intuitive along the lines of picking out your outfit three days in advance, which I never would have done.
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Yes, and actually, I don t want people to have to rip it out of the book, so I have a downloadable version of it.
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They just go to my website, micheltillsletterman.com, slash gift pack, and they can download the checklist.
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Great, thank you so much.
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Is there anything that we haven t asked you that you want to make sure you communicate to the AOC family here?
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What I want people to know is that the interview, although it is high stakes, here s the game I want people to play.
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I want you to play truth or dare.
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That s the game that s going to allow you to bring your best self to dare to ask the questions that are relevant for you to make sure that when you choose the job, you re choosing the right job.
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Thank you so much.
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I really appreciate you coming in and explaining some of the things from your book here and detailing this for us in advance, because I think it s really easy to go, oh, just be yourself during an interview.
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And I remember even having mock interviews in law school and stuff like that, and they were just complete garbage.
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They weren t really prepped.
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They were done by people who probably hadn t ever hired anyone, and they were kind of just like, so, why do you want to work here?
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And then you d answer that, and they d go,
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Well, why do you think you should work here?
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Why do you think you re a fit?
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You d answer that with some generic crap, and they d go, oh, you re good.
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And you d go to a real interview, and even in that hot market, the interview wasn t that easy.
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So now, when they re actually deciding between 10 people for two positions, you have to have a real answer to that stuff, and you have to be better prepared than everybody else.
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You can t just be not chewing your nails off or looking at the floor during the interview.
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The bar is a lot higher, and I think this helps prepare us for it.
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That s the goal.
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The advanced preparations as well as everything throughout are key, but get yourself in that right place.
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Give that thought and you will nail it.
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Good episode.
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I found myself being a little more quiet there than usual, but I really love her idea to stop playing mind games.
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We all do these to ourselves, even when we re not interviewing.
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I love the idea and, of course, importance of being yourself, but it screens in the right jobs.
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You re not doing that whole charade and ending up with something that s a bad fit for you.
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And knowing, of course, why you re a good fit is great, because you can sell yourself to the interviewer and know that you re a fit culturally, which is actually how many, many companies are hiring these days.
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presenting your best self the interview day, things I never thought of, like picking your outfit earlier, just so it s one less thing you ve got to worry about, overdressing, pretty standard fare, however, most of us make one or more of these mistakes, and this episode serves as not only a reminder, but a checklist, as well as some new insight for those of us who are thinking about jumping ship, getting a new job, or maybe even getting our first job.
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Lots of practical advice in this one, so I hope this comes in handy for you, or for someone you know or love, who s on the market for a job, and could use some advice.
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If you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Michelle on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes, as well as the other resources mentioned on the show.
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You can tap our album art in most mobile podcast players to see the cheat sheet for this episode, and we link to the show notes directly on your phone.
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I m also on Twitter, a lot of stuff that never makes it to the show, articles, insights, and you can engage with me there directly.
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I m at The Art of Charm on Twitter.
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I also want to encourage you to join us in the social capital challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or in the USA only text charmed to 33444.
5
SPEAKER_02
That s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
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The challenge is about improving your networking and connection skills and inspiring those around you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you.
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We ll also email you our fundamentals toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show.
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I m also doing regular videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward.
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It will make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker.
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That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed in the US to 33444.
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This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFilippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
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Show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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Now stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.