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Authentic pride doesn t make people put others down right we found no evidence that in fact when we ve experimentally manipulated people to feel authentic pride, actually respond by being nicer to other people who are different from them they show empathy toward out groups right we call groups of people minority groups who are different.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re talking with Jessica Tracy, author of Take Pride.
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This show is an interesting one.
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It s really a magnifying glass on ourselves and on our forms of pride.
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We ll talk about the two types of pride, when you should have them, when you should not, and how to move from one to the other.
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We re also going to talk about how pride forms those around us, both at home and at work, how pride intersects with grit, a la Angela Duckworth, and the level of achievement we re capable of reaching in our lives.
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And, of course, spotting and being aware of pride and how it gives us a huge advantage in shifting our own behavior and knowing how to react to others depending on their sources and expression
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of pride.
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This is a great arrow in our quiver on typing human personality and predicting the behavior of others as well as ourselves.
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So I hope you enjoy this one with Jessica Tracy.
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We re glad to have you with us here at AOC.
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And by the way, if you re new to the show, we would love to send you some top episodes and the AOC toolbox.
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That s where we discuss things like reading body language and having charismatic nonverbal communication, the science of attraction, negotiation techniques, networking, influence strategies, mentorship, persuasion tactics, and everything else that we teach here at the Art of Charm.
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Check that out at theartofcharm.com slash toolbox.
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Also at theartofcharm.com slash podcast, you can find the full show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show.
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Alright, here s Jessica Tracy.
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Jessica, thanks for coming on.
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Your time is in demand, and the book is really good, and I appreciate you coming on.
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Thanks so much, thanks for having me.
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There are two kinds of pride.
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Explain this and tell me what this is all about, because first of all, when I think of pride, I kind of think, all right, there s the ego, and that is kind of all I ve got, really, for it.
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I just think I m proud of this, I m proud of that.
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Sometimes it s healthy, sometimes it s not.
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Well, you ve done the work on this, and there are two types of pride.
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I want to know why these are important.
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Yeah.
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And I think your intuitive kind of view of it probably is on target.
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You know, the fact that you say, well, sometimes it s good or sometimes it s healthy and sometimes it s not, you re right.
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And what we found is that that s because there s two kinds of pride, the good one or healthy one we call authentic pride.
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And that s the pride that you feel when you ve worked really hard for an accomplishment or an achievement that s important to you, important to your sense of self.
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I mean, it typically makes you feel kind of a genuine sense of self-confidence.
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It s what we feel when we feel like we re accomplishing things.
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We feel good about ourselves in a real genuine way.
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The other kind of pride we call hubristic pride.
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And this is the pride that s much more about arrogance, egotism.
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conceitedness.
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We often identify it in other people.
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I think as much as we feel it in ourselves, we re just as likely to say, oh, that guy, he s got hubristic pride.
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But we do feel it in ourselves as well.
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And we found that people will report feeling hubristic pride.
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They will report feeling arrogant, overconfident, I think you would say.
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And what it looks like we found is that hubristic pride is linked to a lot of psychological problems.
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People who tend to feel this kind of pride
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tend to have poor social relationships.
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They don t care so much about others.
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They re unempathic.
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As a result, they don t have great friendships or interpersonal relationships or romantic relationships.
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Whereas authentic pride is really great for all that stuff.
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Authentic pride makes us want to like others and be close to others and help others and it helps build our relationships in a way.
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When I was younger and less emotionally healthy, in fact, before I started going down the AOC journey, or the path, or whatever you wanna call it, I feel like I leaned much more towards hubristic pride, but even then I kind of knew it was fake.
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It was like, well, if they don t like me, they re idiots, so screw them, and I don t care about them, and I m gonna not work with them on this project, or sabotage their work, or spread rumors about them.
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I mean, we re talking like middle school, high school crapola here.
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But even then, I kind of realized, I wouldn t have even thought about that as pride.
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It was so transparently false.
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And I think as adults, it seems like we get really good at kidding ourselves about what type of pride we re actually experiencing, where we might think, the difference between, I really love AOC, I think it s one of the best shows in iTunes, and everybody should listen to it, versus, you re an idiot if you don t listen to The Art of Charm, the line seems to get thinner as I get older and better at rationalizing bad behavior.
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Yeah, that s really interesting that you say when you were younger, you were kind of aware of the falseness of hubris de pride, because I absolutely agree it is based on something artificial, right?
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It really is this defensiveness.
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It s sort of this unconscious or conscious in some cases feeling of insecurity.
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And the way that we cope with that insecurity is to fight against it.
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You know, you don t like me, well tough, I m going to not like you more.
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I m going to show you how tough I can be, you know, it leads to bullying, you know, really kind of aggressing out against others as a way to protect the self.
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And I think you re right.
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It s interesting.
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Young people might be aware of what they re doing.
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I think you re right that adults often aren t, that we do kid ourselves and we get really good at deceiving ourselves and thinking, no, I am the best.
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I absolutely should be acting like this.
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I deserve to be the best.
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People should look up to me.
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People should treat me this way.
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I m entitled to this.
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We really kind of believe this grandiose sense of self that we ve constructed.
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In many cases throughout our whole lives, we ve been constructing this grandiose sense of self as a way of protecting ourselves from that insecurity.
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Right, it seems like it s a construct that we create in order to, yeah, like you said, protect ourselves.
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And there s a lot of sunk cost involved, right?
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Because when you re a kid, you can kind of go, today I m this, well, today I m that.
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Okay, no, now I m not doing that anymore.
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But as an adult, you can t go, well, I ve been this way for 20 years, maybe I should,
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totally do a 180.
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And luckily, usually for us working on ourselves here, it s not going to require a 180 to get out of it.
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It s usually five degrees to the left, eight degrees to the right, right?
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It s like steering a ship.
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But in the same way that it is like steering a ship, it can be hard to go, wow, I ve just made up a huge facade that is terrible and not serving me well and that has destroyed lots of my relationships.
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Instead of doubling down on it, maybe I should figure out how to fix the problem.
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Yeah, I think you re absolutely right that we get so locked into the sense of ourself.
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It is really hard to get out of it, especially if our entire sense of self-worth is based on it, right?
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If we ve kind of come to believe, well, the only reason people like me, the only reason people look up to me or do what I want them to do is because they believe in this
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concept of me that I know isn t real, that s a really hard thing to give up on.
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But I think you re absolutely right that when it comes down to it, people always are happy to see someone be less arrogant, right?
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They re never disappointed by that.
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And so if someone who has behaved that way can switch gears a bit, can sort of say, you know what, I m going to listen to what other people have to say this time.
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I m not going to just invoke my own view.
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I m actually going to smart people who have advice for me and kind of listen to them and see what they have to say.
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That s always going to be welcomed.
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It s never going to be, hey, that s not who we thought you were.
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You know, that s always going to be sort of appreciated by one s friends.
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And I think it really can change a person s life and relationships.
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Have you looked into the cognitive dissonance that s created when somebody views us one way, and we actually view ourselves a different way, and what that effect might have?
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Because I feel like that really does intersect well with pride.
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For example, if I think of myself as, well, you know, I m not that good at this, or I m not that good at that, or I m not that knowledgeable in this field, and yet I m getting a bunch of email from people, as I have been for the last 10 years that say,
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you re doing this and this is amazing and I really like that.
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That was very difficult for me for the first five years of the 10 that we ve been doing the show because I would get questions or comments where people are like, you guys, you and AJ are doing this.
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I hadn t quite melded into that identity yet and I feel like it was really unhealthy.
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It basically highlighted all the things I thought were shortcomings rather than made me think that they were
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somehow being replaced with more authentic pride.
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And so it seems like if you let hubristic pride go unchecked, and if you let people also fill your head with things that should fill you with authentic pride, you end up with this weird gap between where your authentic pride should be and where your hubristic pride is.
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And this gap, you can live in there, and it s not nice.
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Yeah, there s this theory called self verification theory by this psychologist named Bill Swan.
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And he s talked a lot about this idea that we don t like it when people see us in a way that doesn t resonate with how we see ourselves.
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Even if they see us kind of what you were suggesting, they see us better than we see ourselves, right?
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Sort of they say, Oh, you know, you re so great in this way.
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We sort of feel like no, I m not great in that way.
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You don t really know me.
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We don t really like it.
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And for people who have low self-esteem, it leads to all kinds of problems.
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Because ironically, they actually kind of want to be validated in their low self-esteem at one level.
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At one level, they don t feel good about themselves.
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But at another level, if you feel bad about yourself and someone else is always telling you, no, you re great, you re great, it doesn t really help.
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It just makes you feel like you re not understood.
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And that can be really problematic.
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And I think you re right.
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The two prides do play into this, right?
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Because one way of coping with that is to sort of bury those feelings of not feeling good and kind of just go with, they think I m great.
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I m going to go with that.
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And it doesn t feel real.
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You know, it does feel false and it does become this artificial kind of hubris to pride, which can lead to problems.
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Well, in the book, it seems that hubristic pride is a source of a lot of human downfalls.
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And unfortunately, the pride lies at the heart of human nature.
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Let s talk about what hubristic pride can do and why it s bad.
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And then we can sort of move into why pride is good and necessary for us to survive and evolve and be where we are today as humans.
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Sure.
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So hubristic pride, we found basically because it s defensive,
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because it is this thing that people experience as a way of protecting themselves.
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It causes people to engage in this sort of grandiose, arrogant manner where they re constantly talking about how great they are, showing their superiority over others, and people basically as a way of kind of feeling good about themselves.
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become quite willing to put others down, to manipulate others, take advantage of them.
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In one study, we found that it s not just the case that people who dispositionally tend to feel hubristic pride, who have it as a trait, do this, but actually anyone manipulated to experience hubristic pride, or through experimental methods, we lead people to feel hubristic pride by asking them to recall a time when they felt hubristic pride, and we ve all been there, we ve all had it, so anyone can do this.
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When in that experience, when feeling those emotions,
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people actually tend to be more mean, put down others who are different from them.
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So we did this and we asked people to make judgments about people of a different ethnicity group, typically a minority ethnicity group, or gay people if they were straight, so minority sexual group.
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In both cases, feelings of hubristic pride led people to actually make worse judgments of these other group members, suggesting that hubristic pride can actually lead people to engage in prejudice.
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And that makes sense, I think, because engaging in prejudice is a good way to feel good about yourself, right?
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If you sort of have this artificial sense of self and you need to constantly bolster it, putting down others who are easy targets, as stigmatized others tend to be, is one way of doing that.
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It s obviously a really societally problematic way.
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You can imagine all the pitfalls that are going to happen in society if our leaders feel a lot of hubristic pride, because hubristic pride does get people power, if those leaders engage in prejudice, which I think might happen.
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Yeah, of course.
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Looking at things like Ekman and emotions and where they appear in our mind and our body, what we think is shaped by, of course, how we feel and then we rationalize that behavior.
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Not a new concept for AOC listeners who know that our brain tries to figure out why we re feeling a certain way and back it up with quote unquote facts or alternative facts as the buzzword of the day happens to be.
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and you can say something like, oh, well, I m prejudiced against this person because of hubristic pride, but I m gonna rationalize that I was watching something on Vice the other day about right-wing extremists and national socialists, and it was just like, Asian people kinda look like cats, so they must be lower on the evolutionary scale and equal to cats and not humans, and I was just like, this from a guy that has like three teeth, right?
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The clearly hubristic pride playing a role in this.
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Can we have pride serve us and not the other way around?
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I mean, it seems like hubristic pride basically turns us into a slave in a lot of ways because then it dictates our behavior in negative ways.
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Yeah, no, I absolutely think so.
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But we can.
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That s the beauty of authentic pride.
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You know, I really think people often distinguish between
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Having a little pride or too much pride, and I don t actually think it s about quantity I think it s more about quality And I think if you have the right kind of pride it can be great for you right and that s what authentic pride is Authentic pride doesn t make people put others down right we found no evidence of that and in fact when we ve experimentally manipulated people to feel authentic pride They actually respond by being nicer to other people who are different from them they show empathy toward outgroups right we call groups of people minority groups who are different and
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And I think that s because when you genuinely feel good about yourself, when you feel confident, like you re accomplished, there s no reason to put others down.
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And you sort of can be more generous about it.
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You can help others.
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You can give others advice.
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And that s what authentic pride makes people want to do.
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It makes us want to take care of others and help them.
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And I think there s evolutionary reasons for this, right?
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Authentic pride, we think, evolved to help people attain prestige, which is a kind of high rank that s based on respect.
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My prestigious leaders are the ones that we look up to.
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And in order to get prestige, you have to be admired.
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You also have to be well liked, right?
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Because prestige is the kind of leadership that followers willingly grant.
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We choose our prestigious leaders because they re the people that not only do we look up to them, but we like them.
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We think they re going to help us.
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And so it s very useful for authentic pride to kind of engender this willingness to help, this willingness to advise and allow others to learn from you.
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I want to dive deeper into authentic pride in a bit, of course, but I want to kind of highlight the differences as well.
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Ego versus fulfillment, what causes different types of pride to occur?
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Because it s clear that we have one or the other, or one and the other, and what behavior this causes, but do we know why we end up with hubristic, narcissistic pride?
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What causes that?
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Because I feel like when we highlight those things, we can then sort of highlight, all right, then what causes authentic pride?
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How can we get more of that?
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And that s the direction I want to move the show.
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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So I mean, at a basic kind of experiential cognitive level, people tend to feel hubris to pride, or they re more likely to feel hubris to pride, if they attribute something about themselves or their success to something global and uncontrollable and stable about who they are.
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So for example, well, if I m a student and I do well on an exam and I say, ah, well, that s because I m just really smart, right?
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That s something I can t really control.
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It s stable and it s sort of not going to change.
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That is more likely to lead to hubristic pride than if I were to say, you know, I did well on that exam because I studied really hard.
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That s a specific behavior that s more controllable.
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It s less stable.
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It s something that I actually have the power to change or not.
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And that s what leads to authentic pride, when we actually attribute events to things that are more controllable and unstable.
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So that s kind of an attribution cognitive level, the distinction.
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But I think there are broader personality differences that lead people to make these kinds of attributions, right?
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So someone who is more narcissistic, as a personality disposition, that person is more likely to make the kinds of attributions that will lead to hubristic pride.
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And correspondingly, someone who has genuine self-esteem, not narcissistic, but genuinely feels a true sense of self-confidence, that person is more likely to make the kinds of attributions that will lead to authentic pride.
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This starts to make more sense when I think about the kids who I grew up with that were maybe really well off and their first car was a BMW convertible and things like that.
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They weren t necessarily bad people, but as we got older, I noticed that their level of insecurity, no matter what they did, was still growing for a lot of these guys and girls because what had happened was their parents set them up to win in such a way that if anything went wrong, it sort of really poked at
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their ego and their insecurities because they were probably secretly worried that they d been handed everything and were not sure as to whether or not they were achieving things or they were just a fortunate winner of the lottery upon where you re born and who your parents are.
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And that got worse over time if they didn t really
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create their own achievements.
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If they didn t work hard in athletics or school or something like that, it just got worse and worse and worse as they saw other people who were like them develop in more healthy ways.
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No, absolutely.
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I think that if you base your sense of self-worth on the stuff you have, these kinds of things, the fancy cars, and you aren t the one who got that stuff, and you know deep down I have this stuff, not because of anything I ve done or any kind of hard work I ve put in,
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you re going to feel hubristic pride, right?
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And that s not to say don t be a rich kid, don t have stuff.
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The answer is to not base your sense of self-worth on it, right?
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So if you can know, yeah, you know, my parents had enough money to buy me this car and I m really fortunate to have that and I m going to then do my own thing and find ways of using that car or using the things that I ve been given to
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have my own accomplishments, then you can have a real basis for feeling authentic pride.
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But if you re constantly basing your sense of self-worth on stuff that you ve gotten due to others, and you know it s due to others, but you need to somehow find a way of attributing that success or that accomplishment to yourself, it s going to be artificial.
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Right, of course, and then you end up with that narcissistic pride that covers up the ego and the deep-seated insecurities, so you re sort of putting whipped cream on the turd, right, instead of actually cleaning it up in the first place.
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And it seems like the worse you feel, of course, the more strongly you re gonna react, because you wanna cover those feelings of shame.
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And it could be a real vicious cycle, I would imagine.
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Yeah.
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No, I think so.
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Absolutely.
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Because you re right.
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The more that sort of you re covering it up, the more you know that you re lying and deceiving yourself, the more shame that kind of just stays there and gets buried and the more covering up and lying that you have to do.
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Is pride hardwired or is this a social construct that we re dealing with here?
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No, it is hardwired.
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So this is one of the neat things we found is that people all over the world have pride.
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We did this by studying the nonverbal display that people show when they re feeling pride.
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So they engage in this kind of expansive postural behavior, their head tilts up, they smile a bit.
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And we ve shown photos of people showing pride.
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to people all over the world.
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We went to Burkina Faso, which is in West Africa, and showed photos of pride displays to villagers living in this kind of remote area, rural countryside, mud huts, you know, no electricity, no plumbing, really no contact with Western cultures.
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And they looked at these photos and they said, yeah, that s pride, right?
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Which is really kind of nice evidence that this is something that people all over the world know.
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It s not something we ve created in American culture or Western culture.
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It s something that
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People who really would have no way of accessing those cultures nonetheless know it.
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The other thing we found I should say is that people show pride after experiencing a success, people from countries all over the world, and anyone who s watched the Olympics can see this.
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We actually did a study looking at Olympiads, and that s how we found it.
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But we also looked at blind Olympiads, people in the Paralympic Games.
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And so we had a sample of people who are congenitally blind, who ve never been able to see.
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And our thinking was, well, if people like that, if they show the pride display, that s pretty likely to mean that this is innate and hardwired because it s hard to explain how they could have learned it, you know, without having ever seen anyone else show it.
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And that s exactly what we found, that even congenitally blind athletes, after winning a match, would show pride.
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Right, because no one says, look, if you win, and they announce your name, raise your hands up really high in the air, smile, and jump around a lot, and that s how you ll show that you re excited.
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I mean, that s the only alternative hypothesis, and some people have argued that, well, you know, everyone knows raise your hands in the air, that there s songs that even say put your hands up, and that kind of thing, but we ve found things like chest expansion, right?
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So it s hard to imagine that these people were told, expand your chest.
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Like, that s a really kind of specific, small grain behavior that it s hard to imagine that it could work that way, but always a possibility.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right, yeah, sure.
2
SPEAKER_02
Change your rate of breathing and stand up straight, elongate the spine.
2
SPEAKER_02
We want to see the chin elevated at like 15 degrees.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it seems like your hypothesis is probably more likely when combined, especially with other factors as well.
2
SPEAKER_02
So we know we show pride, we know a little bit about why we do this.
2
SPEAKER_02
When we look at things like chimps and gorillas and stuff like that,
2
SPEAKER_02
how does pride function there?
2
SPEAKER_02
Because whenever we look at animals, all the stuff that humans do tends to be just exaggerated times 100 because they don t have language.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so I m wondering, did you look at chimps and gorillas and go, oh, okay, this is the function pride serves in humanity probably, except for when a chimp does it wrong, they get killed or torn apart or something like this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think it s a really useful way to try to figure out why we have pride and where it comes from to look at some of our non-human primate
2
SPEAKER_00
ancestors.
2
SPEAKER_00
We can t look at the ancestors, but we can look at our cousins, which is what chimps are.
2
SPEAKER_00
In fact, there s a lot of evidence from primatologists to suggest that chimps do this thing called a bluff display.
2
SPEAKER_00
It looks a lot like the pride expression.
2
SPEAKER_00
They stand up on their hind legs, which is not how chimps usually stand.
2
SPEAKER_00
They usually use all four legs, but they stand up on their hind legs.
2
SPEAKER_00
They push their chest out.
2
SPEAKER_00
Their hair kind of stands up on end in what s known as piloerection.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s sort of like the chills, but it makes them look bigger, basically.
2
SPEAKER_00
An alpha chimp will do it, an alpha male, if he feels like he s being challenged.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it s a way of saying, hey, I m the boss.
2
SPEAKER_00
You better back off.
2
SPEAKER_00
You better watch out.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s a way of sort of threatening a challenger, basically.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now, this is not really how we use the pride display most of the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
We usually experience pride and show the display.
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SPEAKER_00
after we ve had an achievement, not kind of before some sort of agonistic encounter, some sort of fight as a way of threatening people.
2
SPEAKER_00
When we do that, and I think we do do that, but that s much more of a dominance display.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think it s more intentional.
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SPEAKER_00
It s more, I m going to show this guy what I m doing.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I think that s a difference between humans and chimps.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think it s something that s evolved along with humans  unique sense of self.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t think chimps experience pride in the way that we do, simply because they don t have a complex sense of self in the way that we do, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
They can recognize themselves in a mirror, which is quite advanced.
2
SPEAKER_00
Very few animals can do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
We don t have any evidence to suggest that they hold in mind the complex various self-representations that we hold, the sense of, you know, who I am now is who I ll be tomorrow, my relative place in every different group that I have, and how it varies across the different groups, how I might be high status in one group and low status in another group.
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SPEAKER_00
and all the various ways in which we re able to think about ourselves in incredibly complex ways.
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SPEAKER_00
I don t think chimps have that.
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SPEAKER_00
And the fact that we have it gives us a lot more than they have in terms of getting along with others, accomplishing things, being motivated to achieve certain kinds of things and hold up a certain reputation.
2
SPEAKER_00
So there s a lot of advantages to having that kind of self.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think with it comes this need to sort of, after you have an accomplishment, convey it to others through a pride expression.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that s why we do it after rather than before.
2
SPEAKER_02
I assume that s because that affects social status and things like that in modern society.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, exactly, and we found that, that when we see other humans display pride, we have this unavoidable, automatic sense that they deserve high status.
2
SPEAKER_00
We ve done studies where we ve shown people who are clearly low status will have a homeless person, for example, showing pride.
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SPEAKER_00
And we know homeless people, they re sort of the lowest status segment of society.
2
SPEAKER_00
But when we see them show pride, our brains automatically perceive them as high status.
2
SPEAKER_00
And we can t help but make that perception.
2
SPEAKER_00
Even when we instruct people in various ways to not do that, they sort of can t override that tendency to see the pride expression as indicating high status.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that generalizes across cultures as well.
2
SPEAKER_00
We actually did a study in Fiji, again, with people who are totally cut off from the Western world.
2
SPEAKER_00
And when they see pride displays, they have the same automatic response.
2
SPEAKER_00
They sort of can t help but see that person as deserving high status.
2
SPEAKER_02
So is the right type of pride, namely authentic pride, is that somehow then beneficial to society?
2
SPEAKER_02
And if not, why haven t we gotten rid of it yet?
2
SPEAKER_00
No, it is.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s very much beneficial to society.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think it s, you know, one of the most important reasons why our societies are as complex and developed as they are actually is because of authentic pride.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that it s what motivates us to achieve, to do all the great things we do, whether it s art or science, technology, or being a good person, whether that means taking care of your children, taking care of your family, being a good partner.
2
SPEAKER_00
All that stuff, the reason we do it is because we want to feel authentic pride.
2
SPEAKER_00
We want to feel good about ourselves.
2
SPEAKER_00
And when we don t feel it, when we realize we re lacking that sense of authentic pride, we don t feel good about what we re doing in our lives,
2
SPEAKER_00
We make a change and we re motivated to make a change because of the desire to feel up into pride so the book i tell examples of this i can give you an empirical example we just study in which we looked at how students responded to exam performance they would take an exam a real class exam and then we look at how they did and we asked them to report how much pride they felt response and i think it was that students who did really well would feel a lot about the pride.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then that feeling would motivate them to work even harder in the future, they would do even better, and pride would beget more success.
2
SPEAKER_00
But that s not exactly what happened.
2
SPEAKER_00
It turned out that the people who did well felt pride, and they did well again in the future, but the pride that they felt had no impact on their future success, because those are people who, regardless of their feelings, they re studying hard, they re doing well, they know how to succeed in the exam domain.
2
SPEAKER_00
Pride isn t going to play a role one way or another.
2
SPEAKER_00
What was interesting was that the people who didn t do well on an exam, the people who did poorly, many of those people told us that they felt a lack of pride.
2
SPEAKER_00
They did not feel authentic pride in their performance, which is correct.
2
SPEAKER_00
They shouldn t.
2
SPEAKER_00
And because of that lack of pride we found, they changed their behavior.
2
SPEAKER_00
They told us they were going to study differently for their next exam.
2
SPEAKER_00
Those differences, that sort of new
2
SPEAKER_00
way of studying a new amount of studying actually led to an improved performance on the next exam which we re able to trace back directly to that lack of authentic pride so in other words for people who did badly the lack of pride they felt in their performance directly contributed them changing their performance doing better in the future and that tells us pride is motivational desire to feel pride is what gets us to work hard.
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SPEAKER_03
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SPEAKER_02
Right so authentic pride is it sounds like it s critical for fostering achievement and working on long term goals and putting in the work that gets there.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean I know that pride in what we ve created at AOC is oftentimes the only thing that gets Jason and I into the studio in the morning.
2
SPEAKER_02
after a long evening or a long week or on a weekend or something like that, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
It s very motivating in seemingly a healthy way, depending on how hard we push ourselves.
2
SPEAKER_02
You mentioned that both forms of pride are adaptive earlier.
2
SPEAKER_02
What does each form of pride do that works for us?
2
SPEAKER_02
Because it seems like all we ve talked about is hubristic pride being bad, but obviously it has a function.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, I agree.
2
SPEAKER_00
Both forms of pride are adaptive in the evolutionary sense,
3
SPEAKER_01
I think they help us spread our genes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not in a psychological sense, and I think that s an important distinction.
3
SPEAKER_01
Something can help us spread our genes, but not being good for our psychology, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
It can make us not feel like we re a good person, while still helping us spread our genes.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think that s the case with hubristic pride.
3
SPEAKER_01
The reason for this is that both forms of pride help us attain high status.
3
SPEAKER_01
They both help us climb the social ladder, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Get high rank.
3
SPEAKER_01
Authentic pride I talked about, it helps us get prestige by basically making us seek out those accomplishments, work hard toward achievements.
3
SPEAKER_01
Having achievements is basically a way of telling others that we are an accomplished person who deserves respect, power, status, and others willingly choose to defer to us.
3
SPEAKER_01
They choose to look up to us, treat us as leaders because they want to learn from us, they think that we have something valuable to contribute to the group, and prestigious people are nice about it.
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SPEAKER_01
They like prestigious people and so they think okay well this is going to be a good deal i m gonna have a leader who i like and respect and he or she will be nice to me that s why authentic pride is adapted hubris to pride.
3
SPEAKER_01
Also gets people power but it s a very different kind of power and we call this kind of dominance so you bristly pride basically motivates people to engage in behaviors like aggression.
3
SPEAKER_01
grandiosity, putting others down.
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SPEAKER_01
These behaviors allow people to basically take control, take charge, even when followers don t want to give them power.
3
SPEAKER_01
So this is sort of the power that comes from intimidation and threat, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
This is the leader who, it s not that people look up to him,
3
SPEAKER_01
But people feel they have no choice but to give him power because he says, I m going to fire you if you don t do what I say, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
That boss who kind of constantly uses that threat as a way of retaining power.
3
SPEAKER_01
And there are bosses like this, unfortunately.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think many of us know people who are like this, whether it s a boss or a co-worker, a schoolyard bully, the person who gets power by saying, if you don t give me what I want, I m going to take your lunch money.
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SPEAKER_01
I m going to beat you up.
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SPEAKER_01
I m going to control this resource that I have, often wealth, in a really manipulative and aggressive way, essentially forcing you to give me the power I want.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it works.
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SPEAKER_01
We found that in small groups of undergraduates working together on a task,
3
SPEAKER_01
People who wield dominance actually do get power.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of amazing.
3
SPEAKER_01
These are groups of people who will probably never see each other again.
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SPEAKER_01
They don t know each other before.
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SPEAKER_01
They have no reason to fear these other people.
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SPEAKER_01
And yet what they tell us is that guy in the group who they found to be kind of threatening and scary, who they didn t like, he was a leader.
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SPEAKER_01
He did get power.
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SPEAKER_01
And we validate that by having externally, you know, outside people watch videos of these interactions and they say, yeah, that guy was a leader.
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SPEAKER_01
That guy is able to convince people to adopt his opinions.
3
SPEAKER_01
We look at behavioral measures of who is able to convince people to do what they want the most.
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SPEAKER_01
The dominant people are quite effective.
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SPEAKER_01
The prestigious people are too.
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SPEAKER_01
It s not that prestige doesn t work.
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SPEAKER_01
It s that they both work.
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Both are an effective way of getting ahead in groups.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I think that s why hubristic pride is adaptive.
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SPEAKER_01
It helps foster this sense of dominance that, you know, you re not going to have people like you, but you are going to get power.
3
SPEAKER_00
Really fascinating.
3
SPEAKER_00
We have a value scale here at the Art of Charm, and we talk about this in the Art of Charm Toolbox, which we ll link up in the show notes at theartofcharm.com slash toolbox.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is one of the things that we re well known for, Jessica.
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SPEAKER_00
It s essentially a scale which is an archetype of personalities, and as I was reading the book, I noticed, wow, you know, the dominance versus prestige structure really fits in well with personality types that are combative, where they re constantly trying to push other people underneath them in order to gain control, aka dominance.
3
SPEAKER_00
and things like prestige, which fits in really well with our cooperative mindset because it seems like for most of us, in many of the examples that I can think of, at least socially, prestige is something where if your friend has it and he s your friend, it rubs off on you, so you want other people around you to also have prestige because it makes all of you more prestigious.
3
SPEAKER_00
Basically, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts in this way, whereas dominance is kind of a zero-sum game where if you have it, I don t.
3
SPEAKER_00
So authentic pride being transitive here, if we re gonna translate this down to our value scale along with your scale of dominance versus prestige, it seems like we would almost always want to choose authentic pride and prestige over dominance and hubristic pride because it s one, better in the long run because you re actually well-liked and two, you can constantly ratchet that up, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
If you look at
3
SPEAKER_00
celebrities that we like, guys like Mike Rowe, for example.
3
SPEAKER_00
Everyone loves that guy.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you hung out with him, you wouldn t be like, I gotta show him better than Mike Rowe.
3
SPEAKER_00
You d just be like, I m hanging out with Mike Rowe, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So, you d be stoked about that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Why do people choose the strategy of dominance and hubristic pride versus the strategy, the long-term win of authentic pride and prestige?
3
SPEAKER_00
Why do people go there?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no, it s a great question because I absolutely agree with you that both get you power, but prestige also makes people like you.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a win-win for everyone.
3
SPEAKER_01
It has longer staying power because even if you re no longer able to back up your accomplishments, people like you, so they re not going to kick you out.
3
SPEAKER_01
They re still going to keep you in the group even if you re not as high status as you once were.
3
SPEAKER_01
Dominance, as soon as they lose their power, they re out.
3
SPEAKER_01
You can think of the chimp.
3
SPEAKER_01
When Alpha Chimp can no longer back up his claims of threat,
3
SPEAKER_01
He s often killed or, you know, disgraced in various ways.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it is the better strategy in that way.
3
SPEAKER_01
However, it s not attainable for everyone.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, I think there s both an objective sense in which it s not attainable if you re not someone who can accomplish things.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you don t have the skills or the intelligence to get things done, it s going to be very hard for you to attain prestige.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if you re someone like that, but who s still big and strong or wealthy, you might think, I don t have to be a low-ranking member of the group, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
That s what happens if you have nothing.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you don t have the wealth or the strength or the smarts, you re just a low-status group member and that s fine.
3
SPEAKER_01
But if you re big and strong,
3
SPEAKER_01
Or wealthy you might think you know what i can get power i can run this group and if you don t have the intelligence or the competence to get prestige it s a viable way to go right there s also personality factors some people disposition we do the combination of genetics and environmental upbringing aren t very agreeable there s people out there who just kind of.
3
SPEAKER_01
irritable jerky emotionally unstable volatile do personality stuff for those people it s gonna be very hard to attain prestige is an important part of prestige is getting other people to like you being sort of charming being nice being helpful to others a dominant doesn t have to be well like the dominant in fact is often not well like so if you have a naturally disagreeable personality dominance is gonna be a more viable strategy for you to take.
3
SPEAKER_00
We see people trying to control pride in certain ways, especially the dominance and hubristic pride.
3
SPEAKER_00
I feel like we see people in groups controlling this, and looking back at high school and middle school, and even now on the internet, let s be real.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you see somebody who you think, oh, this person doesn t deserve the type of pride they have,
3
SPEAKER_00
You either try to minimize it and ignore them or cast them out, or you make fun of them and you make caricatures of them.
3
SPEAKER_00
We see this with Srdja Popović here on the show a few months ago, who had helped foster a revolution in the former Yugoslavia against Slobodan Milošević.
3
SPEAKER_00
And one of their main tools was let s make fun of it because we re never going to be able to outgun this dictator who controls the military and is terrorizing our country and standing off against the United States.
3
SPEAKER_00
We can t really minimize it because he s got secret police and he s pervasive in our lives, but what we can do.
3
SPEAKER_00
is spray paint caricatures of him and I think they at one point they had a barrel that had a cartoon of him kind of spray painted on it and they had a hammer near there and they had a sign that says, you know, Wax Slobo and people were just walking by bashing this barrel until the police came by and arrested a big spray painted barrel or garbage can.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so they used all these types of techniques to ridicule dictators.
3
SPEAKER_00
And we see this with Otpor, his organization, exporting this into other countries as well.
3
SPEAKER_00
We try to ridicule leaders that we don t like.
3
SPEAKER_00
We see plenty of that happening right now in the United States as well.
3
SPEAKER_00
So there seem to be methods of control against pride that we feel is unjustified.
3
SPEAKER_00
Does that happen more with hubristic pride or does it happen equally with authentic pride as well?
3
SPEAKER_01
My guess is that it happens more with hubristic pride.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, I mean, it s sort of a societal question, not a psychological question, so I can t draw on my psychological expertise that much, but I think it makes sense that it would be more effective with hubristic pride because hubristic pride has this artifice, this defensive quality that really is sort of based on this inflated and artificial sense of self.
3
SPEAKER_01
It is a viable way to take someone down, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Someone who feels a sense of hubris and is constantly ridiculed and attacked is going to respond, is going to get really angry, really upset, is going to lash out and fight back.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s what people who are narcissistic do when they re attacked.
3
SPEAKER_01
Even if it s for something meaningless, even if it s for something that you think, why would they possibly care about this thing?
3
SPEAKER_01
They re a leader of this country.
3
SPEAKER_01
Why should they care if someone s making fun of their haircut or whatever it is, their hand size?
3
SPEAKER_01
they feel they have to kind of defend against everything and attack against everything and that s the hubristic pride that s that need that constant sense of i m not good enough so anytime anyone comes after me i need to fight back and show that so it s an effective means i think of kind of getting under someone s skin annoying them and potentially
3
SPEAKER_01
revealing to others the hubristic pride.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think the hope in many cases is that other people who support the person will come to see their arrogance as arrogance, you know, see it for what it is, as sort of artifice.
3
SPEAKER_01
If they see, wow, this person who should be caring about these big things is getting all wrapped up in this little kind of fight, this little battle that s meaningless, that might be kind of a wake-up call to followers.
3
SPEAKER_01
People who feel authentic pride, who have a genuine sense of self-confidence, I don t think it s particularly effective for because
3
SPEAKER_01
If you truly feel good about who you are, if someone makes fun of you or ridicules you, you should be able to kind of blow it off, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
It s who cares what they think.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know who I am.
3
SPEAKER_01
The people who know me know who I am.
3
SPEAKER_01
The people who respect me respect
4
SPEAKER_01
me for who I am.
4
SPEAKER_01
They can say what they want.
4
SPEAKER_01
They ve got their own thing going on.
4
SPEAKER_01
It shouldn t bother you so much.
4
SPEAKER_01
And there s evidence to suggest that people who have genuine self-esteem aren t particularly bothered by kind of little meaningless attacks.
4
SPEAKER_01
Negative feedback on an essay for a school class or even for a research study that shouldn t matter at all drives people who are narcissistic crazy, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
They lash out.
4
SPEAKER_01
They want to fight back.
4
SPEAKER_01
People with genuine self-esteem are able to kind of blow it off and say, who cares?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think this is a great sort of arrow in our quiver on typing human behavior, because when we look at the different types of pride, one of the things we strive to do on this show as much as possible is say, okay, cool, there s this archetype, there s this archetype, here s the behavior we re looking for, and then here s the type of behavior that we can exhibit to work with or around people with this set of characteristics.
4
SPEAKER_00
Basically, we can predict behavior based on
4
SPEAKER_00
All right, this person expresses pride in this way.
4
SPEAKER_00
They have a lot of hubristic pride.
4
SPEAKER_00
If I do this, it s gonna cause an adverse reaction, so let s react in this way and get this project pushed through at work, or manage this relationship issue, or get my neighbor to move that damn thing off of his lawn after all.
4
SPEAKER_00
Stuff like that.
4
SPEAKER_00
This is a really, really good skill set for that.
4
SPEAKER_00
So what can you tell us about moving from more hubristic pride and external validation
4
SPEAKER_00
in ourselves and the associated problems that that causes to more authentic pride.
4
SPEAKER_00
What can I do to be more authentically proud if I find that I might be lacking in that area?
4
SPEAKER_01
I would think that the key is to think about who you are, what s most important to you in terms of who you are, and try to not think about what other people think.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s really hard, because I don t want to say, well, authentic pride s not at all about what other people think, because that s not true.
4
SPEAKER_01
The things that we come to feel authentically proud of ourselves are
4
SPEAKER_01
typically things that we ve learned from enculturation, growing up in whatever society we ve grown up in.
4
SPEAKER_01
These are things we should care about.
4
SPEAKER_01
These are things that we ve sort of learned throughout our life we should care about.
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But at the same time, if you re someone who tends toward hubristic pride and you know that about yourself, I think it could be really useful to kind of step back, shut out those voices, and just for a moment think, who am I?
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What s most important to the kind of person I want to be?
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And what can I do to get there?
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I think the question people often ask is, well, what if I m not feeling pride in my life?
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I think that s a really common thing.
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Not that I m feeling hubristic pride, but I m just going about my everyday job.
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It s fine.
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Everything s going well.
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But I m not feeling that sense of real accomplishment, that sense of pride that I long to feel.
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I told a story about how I felt this way back right when I graduated college and I was working in a cafe, which I really liked.
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I, you know, had plenty of time to read and hang out and do all the things I wanted to do, but I wasn t having that sense of pride.
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I was really missing it.
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And so I think that s where the key is to think, okay, well, what kind of person do I want to be and what do I need to do to get there?
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Right.
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And it could be as simple as, you know what, I miss having art in my life.
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I want to spend some time taking a photography class or I miss feeling like I m being accomplished with my body and my athleticism I m gonna go start a running program I m gonna train for a marathon or half marathon or it could be you know I need to feel like I m helping my kid more I m gonna go coach her soccer team you know there s lots of different ways to do it and it could be to the point of I need to change my career around this career
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is never gonna let me feel pride in who I am.
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I need to find a way to have the career that I ve always dreamed of having that really fits with the way that I see myself.
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So there s a whole range of things to do, but I think that s the key.
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Yeah, this makes sense, right?
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Having something in one area where we can sort of always strive to get to the next level, whether that s something with art, whether that s something in our career, or both.
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And it seems like, yes, you probably need to be fulfilled in multiple areas, and I know we re kind of
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reaching outside the topic at hand and probably reaching into some of our Jonathan field subjects where he talks about the buckets of health and relationships and your personal life and I know for me things that have helped with this in retrospect I wasn t doing it consciously in the beginning at least not for pride purposes where things like
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learning Chinese when I found that I was only working on my business the whole time, and there were certain things about working with Art of Charm that made me feel really good, but there was still maybe something missing in another area.
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I d considered myself this well-traveled linguist, and I hadn t done anything like that just forever, and so I decided to learn Mandarin, and that s been kind of a cool
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source of pride that comes from my own achievement that has nothing to do with the whims of the market or how our monthly sales report looks or our download numbers or anything like that and tends to be more within my control.
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And I think also when we see things that we re working on in our life, we can sort of make a map.
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What kind of person do I want to be?
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Let me pick up a new hobby.
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Let me get back in shape.
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You start to look for the holes
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that maybe you once felt really proud of your physique because you were working out every day in high school and playing hockey, and you haven t done that for a decade, you might not think, I need to get back in shape.
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You might just be thinking, eh, I don t like my life right now for these vague reasons that are emotional instead of logical, and then suddenly you end up going to the gym, and endorphins aside, you start to go, oh.
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I m feeling like I m more comfortable in my own skin now because I actually made this happen.
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Do you see levels of self-confidence and self-trust and authentic pride translating from one area to another?
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Say, I get back in shape.
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Do you find in the subjects that you work with, oh, now I m actually feeling better and more empowered in my career because I felt more empowered in this other area, taking control of my health or learning something new?
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Do you see that translate?
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You know, I can t say empirically that we have the direct causal evidence you re talking about, but there is a lot of evidence to suggest that people who dispositionally feel authentic pride, and that can come from any domain, do have a greater sense of confidence across domains, right?
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That s what it is.
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If you re prone to this kind of pride, if you tend to feel it, you know, in a trait-like way, it s going to affect all the domains of your life.
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And so I absolutely think that makes sense that if you get it in one way or, you know, one place in your life,
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It s going to play out by allowing you to have better relationships with people in other domains of your life, doing better in your career.
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You know, I love your example of Mandarin.
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I think that s such a neat example where it s very much about the way that you want to see yourself.
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It fits with this identity that you have about yourself.
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And you re doing it not because I think, you know, I assume at the time you weren t like, Oh, well, I m going to China.
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And so I need to know this, but it s really just, this is who I am.
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And this is going to make me feel better about myself.
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and then you get these real consequences where it does have that effect.
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I think that s fascinating and I think it s a great example of how this stuff works and we often don t realize that those consequences are going to happen and then they do.
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Yeah, it actually, it wasn t anything like that, you re right.
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It was just, well, I learned German, and I learned some Spanish, and I learned some Serbian, but am I really a linguist?
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Everybody says that Chinese is, you know, the hardest language.
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Can I do it?
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Because if I can t, or that remains untested, I ll never really know what level I can attain in this particular field.
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So, learning Mandarin is kind of like, oh, I guess I can run in the Olympics.
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of languages, so to speak.
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It s not just, yeah, back in my day, I was really good at this, and I was on my high school track team.
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It s kind of like, can I get to the top?
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Can I touch the brass ring of languages, so to speak?
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And that s been really fun for me, even though I m doing it at kind of an amateur level.
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Last but not least, though, we interviewed someone named Angela Duckworth.
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I m not sure if you re familiar with her work.
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It seems like there s an intersection of pride and grit somewhere along in your work.
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Can you tell us about that or am I imagining that?
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No, you re absolutely right.
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And in fact, in the book, I talk a lot about this.
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I think in the last chapter, I get into this idea of how grit plays into it.
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So grit, your listeners probably know, grit is this sense that some people have that they want to put in the hard work for a goal that typically is kind of a very long-term goal.
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It s not sort of just, well, today I want to get this done.
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It s much more like, here s my long-term career goal.
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I want to be this kind of person.
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And the people who are gritty are the ones who are able to work hard day after day, week after week.
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year after year, even when the work is tedious and boring.
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And I think that s one of the most important parts of it, she s found, that it s not that greedy people get excited about new ideas and do all the fun parts.
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It s that even when the work is not fun, there s always times when it s not fun.
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I tell the story in the book of Dean Karnazes, this ultra-marathoner who spends day and night basically running.
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And he loves it.
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It s his dream come true.
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It s allowing him to be the kind of person he wants to be.
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But there are plenty of hours where he s out there running in pain and agony, and it s not fun.
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And grit is the thing that gets people through those moments, that pushes them, even when it s not fun, when it s boring and tedious, to keep working.
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And I think, you know, I love her work, I think it s fascinating, but the only thing it doesn t tell us is what makes people have grit, what motivates them to put in that work.
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And that s where I think pride comes in, that basically the desire to feel authentic pride, that drive to feel good about ourselves, that s what makes people gritty.
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And so I think it s nice, because I think it can be harnessed by anyone.
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Some people are more naturally disposed to it, which is why she finds these individual differences, where some people have a lot of grit and others don t.
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But once you know that it s about authentic pride, I think it can be harnessed by almost anyone.
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Jessica, thank you so much.
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Is there anything that I haven t asked you that you want to make sure you convey?
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Of course, the book will be linked up in the show notes.
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The book is Take Pride.
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That will be there, so don t you worry about that.
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Thank you so much for your time.
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This has been excellent.
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Great, well thanks for having me.
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No, it s been a lot of fun to talk, so I appreciate it.
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Great big thank you to Jessica Tracy.
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The book is called Take Pride.
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Of course, that ll be linked up in the show notes for this episode as well.
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If you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Jessica on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well.
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I m also on Twitter, at The Art of Charm.
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A great way to say things that are both good and bad, depending on your perspective.
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Give us feedback slash kudos on the show, or just interact with us there.
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And by the way, if you re looking for the show notes, you can probably tap your phone
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if you re using any sort of modern apparatus to listen to this.
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You can tap the screen, the show notes should pop up right on your phone with links to the books, links to the Twitters, links to as well of course our website with our live program details.
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We have our boot camps, they re in LA, we train this stuff like crazy.
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Speaking of pride, hubristic and otherwise.
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We re sold out a few months in advance, so if you re thinking about taking a live program from us, get in touch ASAP, get some info from us, plan ahead, get the ball rolling.
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Love to have you as a part of the AOC family over here.
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We also have the AOC Challenge.
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That s the artofcharm.com slash challenge, and it s about improving your networking skills and your connection skills, and inspiring those around you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you, push you outside your comfort zone,
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Of course, we ll email you that fundamentals toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show, which includes a lot of practical stuff on body language and science of attraction and negotiation, networking, influence, all that stuff that we teach here at the Art of Charm.
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We also have videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward.
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The idea is it ll make you a better connector, and it will make you a better thinker.
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You can go to theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or you can text the word charmed, C-H-A-R-M-E-D,
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to 33444 here in the States, that s Charmed, to 33444.
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For the full show notes for this and all previous episodes, head on over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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This episode of AOC was produced by Jason DeFilippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor, and the show notes on the website are by Robert Fogarty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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Word of mouth is everything.
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So stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.