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This is The Art of Charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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The Art of Charm is where ordinary guys become extraordinary men.
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Welcome to The Art of Charm, I m Jordan Harbinger.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
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Imagine having a mix of experienced mentors teaching you their expertise, packing decades of research, testing, and tough lessons into a curriculum.
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We may not have all the answers, but we definitely have all the questions.
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Make sure to stay up to date with The Art of Charm and get some great stuff that we don t or can t share on the show by signing up at theartofcharm.com.
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That s where we ll email you our Fundamentals Toolkit that covers topics like body language and nonverbal communication, dating, attraction, persuasion, business networking, public speaking, negotiation, and a whole lot more.
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I m also doing regular videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward every single week.
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We ve got our live programs running every week here in Los Angeles, California.
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In fact, we ve got guys from all over the world, which shows that no matter where you are, you can make it here if you want to learn and grow.
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We re sold out a couple months in advance, so if you re thinking about it even a little bit, get in touch ASAP by phone or email me, jordanattheartofcharm.com.
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Get some info from us now so you can plan ahead.
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Looking forward to meeting you here at AOC.
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Before I forget, I also want to encourage you to join us in the first Social Capital Challenge.
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Go to theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text CHARMED to 33444 and we ll have you text us your email instead, no spam, and works a lot better when you re not in front of your computer.
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This challenge is about improving your social capital and inspiring more people to develop a personal and professional relationship with you.
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During the first four weeks, we re giving away something special as well, so keep your eyes open for details.
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You will not want to miss out on what we re giving away either.
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This challenge will get progressively more difficult, so if you think it s easy at first, great, and this will make you a better networker and a better connector.
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Oh, and the last thing, if you want to have accountability, please invite your friends to join the challenge as well at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or have them text charmed to 33444 so they can join the challenge too.
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Today we re talking with my good friend Neil Strauss.
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We re gonna talk about how fame amplifies the faults people already have, lying and withholding as a form of control, what you do when you love your partner but have a sexual desire for someone else, separating love and sex, exploring relationship options, the many faces of polyamory, who gets the front seat of the car after all, and how to live in integrity and be a scientist of your own lows.
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All this and more on this episode of The Art of Charm with Neil Strauss.
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So Neil, glad to have you back on the show, man.
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It s funny, two days ago I got an email that said, hey, why don t you have Neil Strauss back on the show?
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It s been a really long time.
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And I was like, your wish is my command.
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He ll be on Friday.
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And he s like, whoa, that s awesome, thinking I just called you up and booked you instantly because of that suggestion.
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And I m totally fine with that.
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But I did a book with Marilyn Manson, and he called it the idea of delusional self, where you think something and then it happens, and you think the entire world revolves around you.
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That must have been kind of incredible, because I ve heard many stories about this guy, and also people say, oh, it s a shtick, he s an artist, but I just, I can t believe that you can have art that s that far away from your actual personality.
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I think it s just an exaggeration of one side of himself, right?
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So like when you do your radio show, it may not be how you talk with your girlfriend.
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Kind of is actually, that s kind of how you are actually on the radio show.
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You don t show all the sides of himself.
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So I just think that s the side of himself that he finds the most interesting or entertaining and he s always crafting it.
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But it s not like a shtick, like, hey, I m just, it may be different now.
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It s harder to be the antichrist when you re in your late 40s and still be the scary.
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But outside of that, I think that s kind of,
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an accentuation, an exaggeration of who you are.
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Do you think he gets up and he s like, these damn kids are making it hard for me to concentrate on being the Antichrist, I gotta move to a quieter neighborhood, and like 4 p.m.
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he s like, oh man, I m so tired, I need to take off this latex bodysuit with fake breasts and take a nap.
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You know what, the more I think about it, the more I think like outside of the outfits and the makeup that he puts on, like he kinda lives that.
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I remember he d like wake up in the morning,
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and there d be like a line left over and he d snort it and he d say, that was just for fun.
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And kind of wink at me and then grab some absinthe and start drinking.
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So, I guess he lives it.
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What s great, when you re a rock star, you just have your manager to take care of you.
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Like I remember one night, he calls his manager, he s like, hey man, you know that big mannequin we have?
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Is it okay if I set it on fire and throw it in the pool?
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And the manager s like, just don t hurt anybody.
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Yeah, right, like don t make me call lawyers because that s a huge pain in the butt.
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But other than that, destroy your own property all you want.
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You basically get to be an adolescent with parents who let you do whatever you want and then support you whenever you get into trouble.
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That s what being a rockstar is like.
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Well, if you make anybody enough money, they ll put up with you, right?
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It s sad, but true.
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Yeah.
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I mean, well, here s the thing.
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Your new book, you have a manager, but they didn t get you out of some of the, some of the shit you got yourself into.
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I don t, I mean, my, like, if you re a writer, you just have the people who only do like
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they don t really take care of you as a person, they just sort of make sure your contracts aren t ripping you off or taking away your rights to your own work.
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So, for example, when the game made a deal at Sony, they insisted on owning the rights to my name for the rest of my life.
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And so they re the ones who say, well, I don t think that s fair.
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Sony.
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What sort of limitation were they even envisioning for that working out?
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I mean, that seems like one of those ridiculous asks that is impossible to grant.
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And their logic is, oh, we re gonna be investing all this money in a movie, and we re gonna have a character named Neil Strauss, so if you go use that, that could compete with our rights.
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Like, it s insane.
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You re like, you re gonna have to take that up with my mother, unfortunately.
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And judging by the book, your mother was not gonna sell the rights to your name.
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Maybe she wishes she had now.
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Yeah, she might now.
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So what do you do in one sentence?
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And don t say writer, that s a cop-out, because everybody knows that already.
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The way I think of it is I tell stories.
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Fair enough.
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It s storytelling, whatever form it may take.
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And why do you pick the subjects that you do?
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I mean, first of all, Jenna Jameson, Marilyn Manson, how often does the artist s art or lifestyle rub off on you?
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Because you spend a lot of time
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with these people, in fact, the way that it occurs to me from reading a lot of your writing and talking to you as much as I have, is you started off kind of nerdy and introverted and in this sort of enmeshment, if you will, as per the book, and then you kind of went, well, look, I ve got no freedom.
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Who has the most freedom of anyone?
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Rock stars, boom, music, rock star profiles, has working with these people as closely as you have changed you?
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I see what you re saying, and good summary.
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No, it s just fun to see.
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It s just fun.
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It s really fun to see and learn from people who are operating at such a high level.
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Bruce Springsteen once said in an interview, yeah, he said, so we re talking about psychology and how he was in therapy.
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And he said, well,
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The thing is the leap of consciousness it takes to go from playing in your garage to playing in front of 50,000 people is something the human mind is not meant to withstand.
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And so to talk to people who have to deal with all that stuff, you just learn so much.
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And it s really interesting.
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And again, a lot of people.
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You know, our entire tabloid TMZ culture is based on sort of hating on people who have money and have fame and thinking, oh, what are they complaining about?
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But the truth is with those people, they think fame and money, and let s just say in the case of the game, women will fix you or heal you and fix what s wrong with you.
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But all of those things do are amplify what s already wrong with you.
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And so they get to that place and it s fascinating to watch them because everything is operating at a higher level.
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A mistake they make is rippling in front of 50,000 people.
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Just the stuff they do.
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And again, rock stars.
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Also, I think I also always had a dream of being on the road with rock stars, too, because I certainly wasn t a good musician or a musician at all.
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So getting to go on the road with a rock star is like some kind of adolescent dream come true.
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Of course, it kind of goes without saying, everybody would want to check out their favorite band on the road.
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And you spent a large amount of time with these bands, especially things like Motley Crue, where you traveled with them for quite a while.
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But I do remember reading about how you watched them bang just countless women and things like that, while not doing much of it yourself.
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Especially when you were talking about writing the game, it was kind of the thing that kicked everything off.
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Yeah, exactly.
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It was like, okay, if I m on the road,
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with Motley Crue with a stack of backstage passes in my hand and I still am unable to have sex.
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Something is definitely wrong with me.
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It s like I got a full house and I still can t win the poker game.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Fast forwarding to the new book anyway, for me it was surreal reading this because the first page or the little inlay page, I don t know what the name of that thing is, it says Ingrid, please don t read this.
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The next page says seriously, don t turn any more pages after this one.
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And I know you I know Ingrid and I know I ve traveled with you guys and hung out with you guys so I couldn t wait to turn the next page but I assume that she probably had the same reaction.
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Did she read the truth, or are you just really hoping that that never actually happens?
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No, she did end up reading the truth, and it was the best thing that ever happened to our relationship.
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So, I don t want to give this away, but I ll kind of give it away.
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At the very end of the book, the last note at the end just says, I think it s after the conclusion of the book, so it s not a spoiler, it just says, Ingrid, I actually hope you do read this book, because I want you to know the real me.
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So, having her read the truth,
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And in that book are like basically every horrible thing I ve ever done, every shitty thought I ve ever had about her or anything, all those, you know, when maybe if you re in an argument with your spouse or someone you re in a relationship with and in your head you re thinking these shitty resentful things, like it s all in there.
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And there are things like you would never want someone to read because it s just a thought that flies through your head.
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It s all raw, and once she read it, we definitely had a lot of discussions, and it definitely was a couple days of discomfort for her, but afterward, our relationship got to a whole new place, and the lesson was that if you don t compartmentalize things in your life, whether it s your desire for other women, your worries about the relationship or the future, whatever they may be, and you share them in sort of a compassionate way with your partner,
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you will have a much better relationship.
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You can actually be in a relationship now.
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So once she read all that stuff, she s like, oh, that s it.
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Now I ve got nothing to worry about because I know everything and you don t have to hide anything.
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So really, I recommend everyone write a book like this and then show it to their partner.
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It s the best thing that ever happened to us.
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I think that s interesting from my perspective, because my first thoughts, it s different when you know people in books, and this is probably something you ve experienced.
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Hell, you write them, so you know everybody in your own books.
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I don t know if you ve experienced reading a friend s book and knowing the characters, or at least some of them, because I m picturing all of these things happening, not just to characters I know from a book, but I can imagine very well what you would look like if you were really upset talking with a therapist, and I can imagine
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what Ingrid would sound like if she was really upset and wanted to throw you off the balcony.
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I know what this would look like.
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So a lot of the time I m reading this, I m cringing because I m thinking, oh my gosh, what s gonna happen?
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How much worse can it get?
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I mean, how much more vulnerable can someone be?
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But at the end of the day, and at the end of the first several chapters, I thought to myself, man, if you could write down your deepest, darkest stuff and share it with your partner, and then they know that that s the bottom and they can bounce back up, they don t have to worry about anything coming out to surprise them, biting them in the ass, because it s in a friggin  book, it s out there.
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Not only do they know, but they can go back and reference it if they need to.
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Yeah, and exactly, I mean, that s kind of why it s called
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The truth because I came to the realization over the course of this That withhold lying and withholding which is just not sharing your reality with someone Is a form of control.
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It s kind of saying well Hey, if you knew the real me or you knew my real thoughts then you wouldn t accept me So i m not going to show you me or show you those thoughts In case you have a reaction and you may have a reaction that I can t control And that then i m going to feel out of control.
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So if you kind of let go of
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want to control the other person you can share your truth with them and all this stuff and they can then make the choice do i want to be with that person or not and then you re having a real relationship and empowering them with a real decision a friend of mine said he was like if you re gonna
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If you re in a relationship that s monogamous and you want to sleep with someone else, resolve to yourself that you re going to tell your partner first if you choose to do it.
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And then you have a choice.
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You might think first before you even do it.
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And if you re going to do it, you re going to think, well, is it worth it to me?
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Is it worth it to me to harm my relationship for this experience?
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because you almost see the consequences before you do it.
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Yeah, it s crazy, man.
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I ve done a few interviews with journalists for the book.
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Maybe more than half the male journalists I spoke to who read the book said, hey, man, I want to confess something to you.
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I hope their wives don t listen to this.
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And they were having affairs and things like that.
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And I m like, I don t know what to do.
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So it just seems like it really strikes a nerve with people.
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I think it s so hard
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It s just so hard to be honest with somebody you love.
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And even if you think you are, really think about, you might feel like you are right now, but think about, did I share this?
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Did I share that?
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Do I try to protect her from these thoughts or him from these thoughts?
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So your new book, The Truth, comes out.
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You re a day behind if you re listening to this right now.
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You re at least a day behind on reading this book.
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And it s essentially about, at least the first part, is about some of the tough spots in your relationship.
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And I ll let you tell this because you wrote it and you know it better than anyone.
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I ve got my own shocked reactions that I ll share later.
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And it s also not just about that.
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It s also like we re also in a changing world and a changing culture where we have so many partners just a click or a swipe away.
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And also that maybe being monogamous isn t required.
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So also it was trying to find a better way to have a relationship because I sucked at them.
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And not just, okay, the stuff I was saying earlier about truth and honesty, but also what do you do if you love your partner but you have sexual desire for someone else?
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Like, can you still love them?
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What about that desire?
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Where does that go?
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How do open relationships work?
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How does polyamory work?
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How does, what about just a bunch of friends, male and female, living together in a sort of a free love commune?
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How would that be?
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And I literally tried all, what about just not getting, what about just saying, separating love and sex?
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What about if you just say,
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I m going to get my best female friends.
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We ve been friends for so long.
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What if we just have a child together?
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We ve known each other for years.
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We re not going to get in fights.
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We d be great parents and then separate the love and sex.
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Have family and then have the sex outside of that.
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What about that?
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There s so many options in the world.
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maybe there s one that will just really resonate with me or resonate with other people.
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So part of the book also is exploring those other options to their pros and cons and what works for them.
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Most of the times when you read a say about polyamory and polyamory is the idea that you don t have to just love one person.
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You can love many people and it just has to be honest.
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All the partners have to know about each other.
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That s kind of the
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basic idea of one philosophy of polyamory.
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And so I thought, well, hey, that makes sense.
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Like, of course, you have different friends.
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You know, you can love four children.
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Why can you not love a few girlfriends?
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So I started getting these relationships and I moved in with three girls.
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And by the way, now there s that moment where it might sound like I m bragging.
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I want to clarify that if you can t have one relationship, don t try to have three at the same time.
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It was like three times the disaster.
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I don t know.
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I should have seen that coming.
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But when you read about polyamory and they talk about the philosophy of it, what they don t share is little things that you don t have to deal with within monogamy, such as who gets the front seat of the car.
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Like it would be an issue, they d all walk up and like stand in front of the front seat and I d have to like choose who gets the front seat, it was so stupid.
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So I really went into these things also just to sort of like figure out how to navigate them and see what the truth of them was.
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So that was part of the book as well, besides that journey with Ingrid, was to really find out if there s a better relationship for me than monogamy.
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Right, so spoiler alert, now you re married.
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So did you choose monogamy or do you have some alternative rules going on that you can share?
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Yeah, here s my thought on it, which is I think deciding all the rules for a relationship and then never changing them for 50 or 60 years may not make sense.
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It becomes dogma rather than a relationship.
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So Ingrid and I kind of went into the marriage saying that
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We re just going to do whatever is healthy for you.
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There are three entities to me in it, which is her, myself, and the relationship.
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And so if something is healthy for all three, that means it s a good thing to do.
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So the idea is, like, there are a lot of labels, like defining yourself as monogamous or non-monogamous, even in a way like, and this may be controversial, maybe it s not, even a way straight or gay or whatever, it s like, you
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People have to choose one extreme or the other.
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I m Republican or I m Democrat.
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I m straight or I m gay.
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I m monogamous or I m non-monogamous.
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There s probably a million other things you can think of.
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But what about just sort of like living in the moment and doing what s right for all parties concerned at all times?
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I mean, how do these conversations work in a relationship where maybe you re thinking,
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Alright, well, I have a strong desire to have sexual relations with somebody outside the marriage.
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I mean, are you able to bring that up in a rational way?
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And then her be like, I m not okay with that.
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And then it s like, okay, and then what do you do with that if the answer s not what you want it to be?
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I mean, and that s a real relationship.
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If the answer is always exactly the answer you want to get out of it, then.
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You re a cult leader.
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It s like fascism, you know, or totalitarianism, you re not really giving.
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one of those cult things in LA, or wherever.
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But here s the other thing, you can say, I really want to sleep with someone, and they can say, that s not okay, and then you can make the decision, well, you still have freedom of choice.
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You can say, I m gonna go sleep with them anyway, and take the consequences, right?
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They re not saying no, they re just saying, I m not comfortable with that, and then you have a free choice as to whether to do it or not.
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They re not making you not sleep with them, you just have to decide that,
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sexual experience is worth more important than my relationship.
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And if it is, great, go do it.
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You re probably doing the partner a favor, but you re free.
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No one s saying you can t do anything.
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You always have choice, but live in integrity.
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Having chosen marriage after
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the whole part of the book that I ve read so far.
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Here s what changed for me.
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The funny thing was, when we got back together, we didn t have these discussions.
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It really was originally just pure monogamous, and once I was willing to really accept that and let go of wanting to let go of everything, everything started to happen for me.
2
SPEAKER_02
We just really get hung up.
2
SPEAKER_02
We really get kind of hung up on things that we can let go of and not intellectualize, especially when it comes to relationships or marriage and just sort of, we just get brainwashed so much that it s hard to see the truth.
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SPEAKER_01
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Hey, Art of Charm listeners, I m excited to share a new podcast I ve been absolutely binging.
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2
SPEAKER_00
On Ways to Win podcast, Craig and Coach Cal use their on-court wisdom to solve your off-court problems.
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SPEAKER_00
Listen to Ways to Win wherever you get your podcasts.
2
SPEAKER_03
Now let s hear some more of the truth with Neil Strauss.
2
SPEAKER_03
Having chosen marriage after the initial infidelity the sex addiction therapy rehab clinic that you went to with all the other like wild folks therapists included.
2
SPEAKER_03
It seems like you ve chosen then the monogamous route having chosen marriage or.
2
SPEAKER_03
Do you think that at some point you re gonna have to say, look, Ingrid, I want this other experience, and she s gonna be like, that would not be okay with me, and then you would make a different choice?
2
SPEAKER_03
Or have you chosen then monogamy, or is that something that s still up in the air that you re not even sure about?
2
SPEAKER_02
I think the entire perspective that you re asking the questions from speak to the problem I originally had in the relationship.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right.
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In the sense that I had this thing in relationships and a lot of people do of, Oh, she won t let me do that.
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He won t let me do that.
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SPEAKER_02
Like, Oh, you know, whatever.
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SPEAKER_02
She won t let me sleep with other women or she won t let me, you know, still talk to my ex or he won t let me, you know, whatever, wear these clothes when I go out or he won t let me talk to my ex.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like nobody s making you do anything.
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You have complete freedom of choice at all times.
2
SPEAKER_02
You just have to accept the consequences of that choice, right?
2
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Nobody.
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So if you let go of that, it s a big difference.
2
SPEAKER_02
So for me.
2
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Like monogamy didn t start working for me until I made the choice in versus, Oh, I have to do this for her saying, Oh no, I want to do this.
2
SPEAKER_02
Um, and then as far as your question goes, it will never happen or it might, but you know, it might have one day where I m like, Oh, I met this person.
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I really want to sleep with them.
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I m really excited about it.
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But more likely is what s going to happen is we re going to be in bed one day, you know, kind of already happened.
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And we have these discussions, like we talk about our fantasies and what would be cool and what would be fun.
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And one day we ll do, we ll do it.
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Uh, but it s going to happen.
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Not like it s hard for most.
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People to tell whether something is healthy or unhealthy when they want to do it So the question is what forces are operating on you when these things happen, for example
2
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Was there a fight or did she kind of press a button and then you kind of went out and you re kind of resentful and then some girl texted and all of a sudden you want to sleep with her and it has nothing to do with that?
2
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Or is it a case of like, hey, we re just, we re really in a great place and we re having a lot of passion and a lot of sex and wouldn t it be fun to kind of open things up a little bit more and see what happens and work it through and have you live your fantasies.
2
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So whatever we do would kind of come about through
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togetherness versus I m in my own universe and I have this secret life and I want your permission to go live my secret life openly and I don t care about how it will hurt you or not, which is maybe how most people think of it.
2
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Look at Ashley Madison.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, right, exactly.
2
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One thing that s funny about fantasies is I found that I know a lot of people and as do you now especially that are in this sort of alternative cultures and stuff and it makes the relationship stronger.
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So they say and it s so crazy because I m thinking how can that possibly do that.
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But when you get really close.
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to that subculture and you start talking to those people and they become really close friends of yours, you find, well, wait a minute, what happens to fantasies when they become reality?
2
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All that magic fairy dust that was sprinkled on there gets dusted off and it s just another experience.
2
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So a lot of what you re seeing, you know, where you re thinking, wow, this thing that s on a pedestal that s elevated into the clouds of how amazing it s going to be to
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let s do it from a college kid perspective, sleep with somebody that they ve seen on TV.
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It just becomes another sexual experience that s really cool, but wears off after a while, and the story ends up being better than the experience ever was.
2
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Right, there s a term for that called euphoric recall.
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And that s what s great about being a writer, is I take really good notes, so sometimes if I have euphoric recall, I can look back at my notes and see, or my journals, and see what really happened.
2
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And here s the thing, the important thing is to let go of
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this sort of polarity of, you know, alternative relationship, regular relationship.
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Am I going to do this road or am I going to do that road?
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Is this road good?
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Is this road bad?
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The truth is this.
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We re all just human beings, and some of us are healthy in our relationships and the way we relate to others, including the way we relate to sexuality, and some are unhealthy about it or compulsive about it.
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And that goes across the board for any type of relationship.
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So when someone s like, this is the right relationship, I guess what I found is that it isn t.
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It s the people in the relationship.
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It s the way you relate to others.
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So it s not like one is the holy grail and one is not.
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And the other thing is,
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two different people can be doing the exact same thing, and one can be doing it for healthy reasons and the other can be doing it for unhealthy reasons, even though they look the same from the outside.
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That s an interesting point.
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Can you separate those two a little bit?
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Because obviously there s a lot of people right now going, wait, what?
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But cheating is unhealthy if the other person doesn t like it.
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sleeping with other people inside your relationship is a signal of an unhealthy relationship.
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And that s not necessarily true, well, at least as per your experience.
2
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Yeah, I ll give you an example.
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Like I have that society group that I work with.
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So there are two guys, right?
2
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And one person really wanted to sort of be an entrepreneur and have a startup and get a bunch of funding.
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And the other person also wanted to be an entrepreneur, have a startup and get a bunch of funding.
2
SPEAKER_02
So with one guy that happened and he got 2 million 2.1 million pounds in funding something maybe 1.2 million pounds in funding I think it was
2
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And that s great, and he s happy.
2
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The other guy, well, the deal was he wanted to do this because his dad kind of went bankrupt, and he felt like he needed to have a lot of money, and he could never have enough.
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We thought, stop worrying about money.
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Go travel the world.
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Just travel.
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Spend money instead of trying to save it.
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Enjoy your life.
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And so he didn t do that, and that was right for him.
2
SPEAKER_02
So the point is you can have two goals, but what s coming out of a kind of fear and compulsion and insecurity and feeling like not enough
2
SPEAKER_02
than what s coming out of just really just enjoying life and passion.
2
SPEAKER_02
So if I was to take the game as an example, right, how much of the game
2
SPEAKER_02
really came from really enjoying sex, and how much came from low self-esteem, feeling like not enough, but if this woman who I feel is beautiful is willing to be naked with me and accept me, then I ll be okay with myself, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
The former seems like a great thing, let s just enjoy sexuality and humanity, the other one is really just using someone to feel better about yourself when you should be doing that yourself.
2
SPEAKER_03
Right, and so to put this in sort of a
2
SPEAKER_03
a monogamy conversation, or a marriage conversation, or even just a relationship conversation, I think a lot of guys think about, well, okay, I need to do this, this is something I need to do, because whenever I get questions about cheating in my inbox, generally, is where I get these, from like a10469 at gmail.com, like the address that
3
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that they don t ever plan to use again.
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It s usually resolved in air quotes by asking several questions back and forth.
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One of which is, why do you want to do this?
3
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And the first answer is something like, she s gorgeous, it s unbelievable, you have no idea.
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SPEAKER_00
Sometimes there s a picture included of just like a normal cute girl or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_00
The second question usually digs a little bit deeper and
3
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almost all the time, it digs into an area where there s something wrong with the existing relationship and or there s an insecurity inherent in the asker that has more to do with non-acceptance, not getting this out of their system earlier, feeling like when they got married they did it out of necessity instead of choice.
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There s almost always something inherent like that and not just this irresistible pull from the other person.
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It could have been anybody in the picture.
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Yes, yes and no.
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I think it goes even deeper than that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And by the way, but I thought of something, which is just to take it out of the clouds for all the guys who are emailing Jordan and women and saying the same, they want to cheat.
3
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Here s a little hack.
3
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Just before you want to call or text or see that person, just masturbate first and then see if you really want to do it.
3
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There you go.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
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Take the edge off.
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You get nothing out of this entire thing.
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Just remember, masturbate first, then see if you really want to do it.
3
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Yeah.
3
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Has that worked for you pretty well?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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I don t have to do that now, but for sure, like in times when I was really, when I was compulsive about it, that like was a good band-aid.
3
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Like you re going to find that once all those kind of chemicals and hormones leave your system or get drained or the brain s reward centers are then satiated, they don t need a reward for at least a little while.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ll tell you what, I mean, now that we re in the TMI villain, it s funny because masturbation s come up several times in the past couple of weeks on the show.
3
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That s a good rule for pretty much anything, and I don t mean just for sexual relationships.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, if you can t sleep, masturbate before you go to bed.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there s a lot of edge that can be taken off from this, and it s kind of a funny way to clear your head, but
3
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It s almost cliche, right?
3
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And I don t think a lot of guys and a lot of girls for that matter really believe that our thinking is impaired so much by this.
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This urge, it s not just a desire, it s an actual urge.
3
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And I think that s one of the major differences between the sexes, and that s just because we ve explored it.
3
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I think there s probably a lot more in common than we even think, but here s what I think.
3
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What you re saying is almost like drug addiction in a sense, because sort of like, okay, if you have anxiety, you can t go to sleep, just masturbate first.
3
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It s kind of like saying take a sleeping pill first, but hey, it s coming from your own body, so it s sort of healthier.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I would say also, just look at the reasons why you re masturbating.
3
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If you re doing it to deal with anxiety, the definition of addiction, right, is you can t deal with uncomfortable emotions or feelings, so you do something to distract from it, whether it is heroin, alcohol, masturbation, or eating.
3
SPEAKER_01
and so there s a part of it where if you re just always using it for a certain reason to deal with something emotional, to deal with anxiety or to calm down, then maybe you should go to the source instead of just sort of getting that hit at dopamine.
3
SPEAKER_00
I definitely agree with that, 100%.
3
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I m not saying, look, if you find yourself masturbating 10 times a day to deal with every little anxiety-provoking issue in your life, you ve got serious problems that you should look into, or not so serious problems that you should look into.
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Somebody in the middle of an exam is caught masturbating, and they re like, well, Jordan,
3
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Jordan told me to do it.
3
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I can see the tweets coming in now.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s a difference between addiction and occasional use, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t think anybody would say, wow, you ve had a tough day at work and you had a beer and it happens a couple times a month.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re an alcoholic, you need help.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re using it, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So using it as a tool versus relying on it because you have no other way to deal with the problem I think is different.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I think it again, like I use my own kind of body and emotional makeup as sort of an experiment.
3
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So my thought is, I feel like you have to have a drink after a hard day of work.
3
SPEAKER_01
To me, there s sort of a dependency there and an inability of myself to cope with what s going on.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I will think, well, okay.
3
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Can I find another way to cope with a hard day of work besides that?
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, maybe whatever it is.
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe in the middle of the day go jog or swim.
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe in the middle of the day go meditate.
3
SPEAKER_01
Can I do something to let go of that?
3
SPEAKER_01
I m all about like how much can I find inside myself as a resource before I have to go kind of outside myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
So let s just say after a hard day of work you go get a drink.
3
SPEAKER_01
What if what used to be a hard day of work maybe in a year seems like a regular day of work because you increased your resources to deal with that much and then maybe you can sort of
3
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grow in your career and in your passions by finding a way to internally deal with it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I guess my thought is this, if you have to justify or rationalize anything, it s usually the wrong thing, or if you need it all the time for a certain reason.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m a guy who toured with every drug-addicted rock star there was, so I would see how they would use it for coping.
3
SPEAKER_01
And again, I know it s not what you re saying,
3
SPEAKER_01
but I just think it s really good to be in a place of doubt and always questioning your habits.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, I agree with that 100%.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you can deal with a hard day at work by hitting the gym, good, but it s always healthier to build up your capacity to deal with stress than it is to numb it, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
That kind of goes without saying.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s exactly it, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
However, I think there s probably, and you ve probably even met these people throughout your own
3
SPEAKER_01
Adventures aren t there people who are just addicted to exercise that do yoga like 20 times a day or lift weights Yeah, but 100% there s absolutely anything that you re doing kind of compulsively for sure They re exercise addicts and because it seems healthy we don t realize recognizes an addiction or a culture in fact I was talking to
3
SPEAKER_01
a musician friend of mine, and we were talking about creativity, I m really of the idea of what s a habit that maybe you re not aware of, and what would happen if you broke it or changed it, and things that you just really depend on, that you may not think of.
3
SPEAKER_01
For example, I was thinking, okay, when I write a book, I always write it on my computer.
3
SPEAKER_01
It just seems like it s common sense, I write it on my computer.
3
SPEAKER_01
What if I wrote a book just on a lined paper?
3
SPEAKER_01
Would it be a different kind of book?
3
SPEAKER_01
I think if you really want to challenge yourself, you step outside of habit, and what s why
3
SPEAKER_01
younger people, like when youth or you re even kids, like everyone s like a rock band.
3
SPEAKER_01
Their first album is usually the second, the second album is always a sophomore slump because that second album s almost always or it s a general kind of rule is after a big hit album is never as good.
3
SPEAKER_01
And again, there are exceptions and I m sure we can list them, but it s because they thought, Oh, I was doing something right then.
3
SPEAKER_01
I better do it again.
3
SPEAKER_01
So as we kind of grow in our creative lives or careers,
3
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or just even her relationships, can you see everything completely new and reinvent what you re doing in every moment, and that s a great way to stay kind of connected and alive and creative.
3
SPEAKER_00
I love that, actually.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do you feel, how do you and Ingrid feel about having not only this stuff all out in the open, that s great, we ve established that,
3
SPEAKER_00
other people knowing a lot of just stuff about you that s very personal, like your relationship with your mother, and the sex addiction rehab clinic, and the swingers, I mean, that s just out there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, people you meet, do you look at them sideways, like, did he read the book?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, it s not out yet, right, but you re gonna be looking at people like, does he know that I did this?
3
SPEAKER_00
Is that why he s looking at me like that?
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I feel like I d be a little paranoid, at least at first, about that stuff, or at least, not paranoid, but I d feel vulnerable
3
SPEAKER_00
lot.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
I honestly think it s easier because you have nothing to hide.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like before I wrote the game, I was always scared of being found out.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was working at the New York times and, but I, but secretly under an alter ego, I was posting in these kinds of seduction news groups, all my like sex stories and questions.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if I was found out, I would just, would have been busted.
3
SPEAKER_01
It would have been the end of my career really as a, as a journalist.
3
SPEAKER_01
But
3
SPEAKER_01
But once I told the story in the game, then it was like, okay, now you ve told us and there s no kind of hypocrisy.
3
SPEAKER_01
So to me, it s freeing, like it s really freeing to not have, first of all, we re living in a culture where the secret and privacy is dying, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
So whatever secret life you have,
3
SPEAKER_01
It s one day going to all be out there.
3
SPEAKER_01
All those, like, whatever porn sites you re visiting with those insane, you know, name names and titles on those on those videos that someone s going to be able to access those records probably.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I d rather tell the story as I experienced it with all the context in which I experienced it than have someone else find out.
3
SPEAKER_01
So to me, it s like freeing.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, shit.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, I don t have to hide anything.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think hiding is about shame.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the less shame you have, the better.
3
SPEAKER_01
So to me, I m like,
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a load off, but it is weird because people will look at you and you can just see in their eyes like, you know, the whole story and you don t know anything about them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I don t feel embarrassed or ashamed about a lot of things.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just feel like there s always a little element of vulnerability that takes some getting used to.
3
SPEAKER_00
Me and Jenny went to
3
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We were in San Francisco, and we went to the Armory.
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you know about this place?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I ve been there.
3
SPEAKER_01
I got a tour of that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s fascinating where kink.com is, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it used to be this armory for the National Guard and has, like, cannon buttresses, and it s this crazy fortress in the middle of the city of San Francisco.
3
SPEAKER_00
And kink.com bought it, and now they make all this dungeon porn there.
3
SPEAKER_00
And we got tickets to go check it out.
3
SPEAKER_00
Not that we re, like, into dungeon porn, but it s just a freaking fascinating place.
3
SPEAKER_01
They have, like, oil drums full of lube.
3
SPEAKER_01
These giant oil drums full of lube, it s insane.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and chains hanging from the ceiling and some of them are rusty, but the ones that the people hang from are nice and clean.
4
SPEAKER_01
They talk about how they keep the areas neat and like there s a fake slaughterhouse in there I mean, it s it s all fetish stuff, and it s really really interesting.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s it s like a cool.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s a castle in the middle of San Francisco How can you not be interested so we go in there?
4
SPEAKER_01
And there s a bunch of other couples in there and some of them you can tell are like they re hardcore fans of what s produced there and
4
SPEAKER_01
And in the middle of the tour, this one guy s like, okay, I can t take it anymore.
4
SPEAKER_01
Jordan, we love your show, we listen all the time.
4
SPEAKER_01
Me and my girlfriend listen together.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I thought it was really cool, but for some reason I felt this little element of like, oh my God, I just got caught at this place, even though everyone s in this place and there shouldn t be anything attached to it.
4
SPEAKER_01
So for a couple of weeks after that, I was thinking like, why did I react that way?
4
SPEAKER_01
Why should I have reacted that way?
4
SPEAKER_01
And you find all this little programming that you think you re rid of that s just still there, waiting to be activated by some incident or some event.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the more that you expose that stuff, like that story right now, if I ever go back and someone sees me there, it won t be weird at all, because for God s sake, I just admitted it on the show.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like a cathartic experience.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I totally understand how you writing a book about all this stuff, it s kind of like writing the message on a lantern and then sending it off into the distance, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
And, and I don t want to have to live up to like, it s, it s a weird thing that like you, you kind of write books or you do the radio show and then people put you on a pedestal and I don t want to ever want to be on a pedestal or feel like I have to live up to some false standard of being that s not true to myself.
4
SPEAKER_00
Cause again, I know people who are like, I personally chose not to kind of do tour the world and do like seminars in the game for the rest of my life.
4
SPEAKER_00
Cause I m like, I don t want to be standing on stage pretending like I m perfect when I m not, I want to keep working on what s wrong with me and be trying to become a better person.
4
SPEAKER_00
So.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s fun.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think it s fun, but for sure, and that s what I love.
4
SPEAKER_00
What I love is, there s a line in the book, it s, be a scientist of your own lows.
4
SPEAKER_00
In the sense that when you overreact to something, if you re really sad or really angry or in a lot of emotional pain,
4
SPEAKER_00
Instead of trying to not feel it, what if you just go inside it, inside there and see what s going on.
4
SPEAKER_00
Are you, why are you in pain?
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, somebody left you.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, they left you and it hurts.
4
SPEAKER_00
You feel, what, what s going on?
4
SPEAKER_00
You feel rejected.
4
SPEAKER_00
You have some fear they re gonna be with someone else.
4
SPEAKER_00
You have a fear that person may be, they may think they re better than you.
4
SPEAKER_00
But where do you feel, where did this coming from?
4
SPEAKER_00
your dad or your mom wasn t there for you and it s like a replication of that wound.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you just keep going deeper and deeper, you know, what are you going to find out about yourself?
4
SPEAKER_00
And you can sort of let go.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think we have this thing in our culture, like about happiness or all these books about happiness, like it is the worst thing ever.
4
SPEAKER_00
to be like, my goal is to be happy all the time, it s insanity.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s so messed up.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it makes people more unhappy.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because they think like, oh, if I m sad, or I m angry, or I m in pain, or I m not happy, something s wrong with me.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then they get even more sad and more angry.
4
SPEAKER_00
And to me, the book would never sell like the happiness book, but I would write a book called Acceptance.
4
SPEAKER_00
Can I accept it when I m sad?
4
SPEAKER_00
Can I accept it when I m in pain?
4
SPEAKER_00
Can I accept these things?
4
SPEAKER_00
And you re gonna be much happier as a result anyway.
4
SPEAKER_01
All right, now back to Neil Strauss.
4
SPEAKER_01
I spent the majority of my 20s chasing that stuff.
4
SPEAKER_01
I would be in college, have lots of friends, go to lots of parties, have a really great girlfriend and then be like, I m gonna go study abroad in Israel because then I m gonna meet all these even cooler people from all over the world and even better looking women and have more fun and it s more liberal over there.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then I d go there and be lonely or whatever
4
SPEAKER_01
And then I d be like, I m going to go to Ukraine because the girls are beautiful and the food is cheap.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I ll be not only will I have everything I had in Israel that I idealized that I didn t really have, but it ll be really affordable too.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I would go there for three months and be like, wow, it s, you know, I m basically just the same person in a different place.
4
SPEAKER_00
You carry your reality with you wherever you go.
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SPEAKER_00
You just replicate what you ve experienced before, cause it s still you doing it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s funny because I really related to what you were just saying.
4
SPEAKER_00
Cause I certainly did the same thing for college and then, you know, going to New York and becoming a journalist and it always ended up the same.
4
SPEAKER_00
And maybe that s what drew us to that kind of game world early on.
4
SPEAKER_00
That was another chance to do that.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because it wasn t like, I wasn t drawn to it for the same reasons that a lot of people who write in were, where it s like, I can t get any, no one likes me.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I get those letters too, but more recently especially, there s a lot of folks who are looking at self-improvement because everything is fine, but they re still not happy, and that was totally me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you mentioned earlier, someday all your porn searches and everything are gonna be splattered all over the place because of technology.
4
SPEAKER_01
I would love to get your take on the Ashley Madison hack.
4
SPEAKER_01
I know you wrote an amazing article in Salon.
4
SPEAKER_01
We ll link it up in the show notes for those who are interested.
4
SPEAKER_01
But this stuff is fascinating because not only has it been just all over the news, but it seems to not be going away because the hackers actually followed through on spilling the beans on everybody.
4
SPEAKER_01
And even one of the instructors here at the Art of Charm
4
SPEAKER_01
who apparently was a member on there, who s a totally single, rambunctious guy, Johnny, if he was a member or not, we don t even know, but they re like, you give us $1,000 using Bitcoin now or we re gonna post your profile in public.
4
SPEAKER_01
And he s like, great, more publicity for my profile.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I feel like that s, for a lot of people, that s their worst nightmare, being blackmailed about this even after it s already been publicized.
4
SPEAKER_01
What do you think about,
4
SPEAKER_01
Has this really destroyed millions of relationships, or were they already in the tank?
4
SPEAKER_01
Where do you stand on this?
4
SPEAKER_01
Because you re kind of in a unique position for this.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think that you ve got to accept the consequences of your actions.
4
SPEAKER_00
And again, I m not sort of getting on a high horse, because I m speaking as the guy who got caught, and it was the best thing that ever happened in my relationship.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I m really speaking from that experience.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like, as soon as you cheat, as soon as you create a rupture in the relationship, you re signing yourself
4
SPEAKER_00
to get caught, and especially now when it s impossible not to leave a technological slime trail behind for someone else to discover.
4
SPEAKER_00
So for sure, in some ways, I think that you re signing yourself up for that.
4
SPEAKER_00
I know this sounds kind of controversial, but you re signing yourself up for your privacy to be invaded by doing that, because if it wasn t some hackers, it would be your partner doing that, because you re going to be behaving shady and distrustful, and they re going to be looking through your emails and through your phone.
4
SPEAKER_00
So cheaters have had their privacy and people who maybe
4
SPEAKER_00
Some people are cheaters who get their privacy invaded by their partners.
4
SPEAKER_00
Some people are just sort of shady.
4
SPEAKER_00
Maybe they haven t cheated, but they signed up for national, you know, all the guys are like, oh, I signed up for National Panasonic profile, but I never used it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Still fucking cheating.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you did it behind their back, it s still cheating.
4
SPEAKER_00
So, okay, now these two, now people can be back in reality and negotiate the relationship they want to have moving forward.
4
SPEAKER_00
So there s an opportunity to be back in a relationship.
4
SPEAKER_01
So in many ways, it s good news because now it s out and people can breathe a sigh of relief and fix the actual problem.
4
SPEAKER_00
And sure, and there s always the, you know, there are always exceptions.
4
SPEAKER_00
There are people obviously who are in countries where maybe they identified as homosexual and that s illegal or they, or maybe they re places where they re cheating is, you know, a punishable crime.
4
SPEAKER_00
But again,
4
SPEAKER_00
If you re doing something in secret, first of all, it s also not smart.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, honestly, like I also think they re all idiots because you re using a credit card, like you re using an email address.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you re like, you re also stupid because you re like, there s no way there s, there s just no way not to get caught if someone wants to catch you.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s just idiotic.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, I was thinking when you were talking earlier, like I was remembering, like, I want to just ask you something, because I remember like the first time we ever met, I went to your guy, your part, I think was your apartment in downtown New York.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
You started off really talking about the game and the pickup artist community, and then then really developed your own direction, the way you were kind of going with things.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it really just became about.
4
SPEAKER_00
women and now really it s so much different.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s really just kind of what you re interested in and what your audience is interested in.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s just expanded in just an amazing way, but I m wondering what shifted for you.
4
SPEAKER_01
What happened for me was I started off, like many guys do, thinking, all right, I m gonna solve this problem by getting really good socially and that the funnest aspects
4
SPEAKER_01
funnest is now a word, aspect of that being 26 at the time, was learning to meet and attract women, because networking was cool, but I thought it was kind of for old people, and I was doing it, but I also really wanted to focus on the dating stuff, and that s what my business partners were good at.
4
SPEAKER_01
So, getting good at that, I realized, wow, you know, this is a skill set that I m pretty decent with,
4
SPEAKER_01
And so I laid off the gas for a little while and I started, I kept working, I kept the momentum and I started working on myself.
4
SPEAKER_01
And what I found was that by working on myself a lot and just, and by working on myself I mean not paying attention to how this looks to the opposite sex or to anybody for that matter.
4
SPEAKER_01
Just like, oh let me pick up another language, oh let me travel a little bit more.
4
SPEAKER_01
oh, you know what, we should make this a business because it s working really well.
4
SPEAKER_01
Let s focus on entrepreneurship.
4
SPEAKER_01
That stuff actually had a much greater effect on both my self-esteem, my sense of self-worth, my sense of legacy, if you can call it, the personal value, and made me much more attractive to the opposite sex because of the confidence effect than learning anything tactical about
4
SPEAKER_01
Attraction per se and then I decided well okay I m getting sick of talking about the attraction stuff in general.
5
SPEAKER_00
I wonder if the show can survive just doing a couple of episodes about what I m interested in that I think has outgrown just dating and maybe even just outgrown relationships in general.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I focused on guiding the brand based solely on my own personal interests.
5
SPEAKER_00
So you and I did episodes on North Korea and things like that and instead of,
5
SPEAKER_00
just catering to a smaller demographic, it turned out to be a much more engaged and much larger demographic that was much more interested in personal growth from a healthier standpoint than just people trying to plug a hole in self-esteem.
5
SPEAKER_00
Not that that s what guys are doing when they learn how to attract women, it s a human need, but it turned out to be more fun to just talk about things that I was interested in versus trying to figure out what the listenership would be interested in solely.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I turned out to be,
5
SPEAKER_00
totally wrong about what people were interested in anyway by focusing so narrowly.
5
SPEAKER_01
Is there anything that you re interested in that you ve been nervous or reluctant to share?
5
SPEAKER_00
Not really.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think about that all the time, and I look at things like, well, do I want to talk about whether or not I should get married?
5
SPEAKER_00
Do I want to talk about whether or not I should move in with my girlfriend, which I did on the show.
5
SPEAKER_00
I actually had my friend who s a therapist lay me down on a couch, and we miked up and did an episode about should I move in with Jen, which I did.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s all out there.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I just answered everything truthfully.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I found that it was really cathartic and really cool because I got a lot of support from people.
5
SPEAKER_00
I didn t get any, maybe one or two that I can t remember, but I didn t get any, and I can say that with some authority, letters like, oh, come on, man, what is this garbage?
5
SPEAKER_00
Get back to business.
5
SPEAKER_00
Everybody was interested in that stuff because at some point, we ve all gone through something similar and or the exact same things that I m going through just as a growing person in America, in the world even.
5
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, exactly.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that s exactly why I wrote the truth and why I was going to be that vulnerable, because I thought I can t be the only person who struggles with relationships and is scared of marriage and the idea of forever and the idea of never sleeping with anyone again.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like if I can solve this problem for myself, maybe I can solve that for other people.
5
SPEAKER_01
And those things that you re the most scared to say are the ones that people connect to the most, because they re scared to say them also.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you make it OK.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s almost like a song.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like if you re in a certain mood, you re sad and you listen to Leonard Cohen, you re like, okay, I m not alone.
5
SPEAKER_00
One of the things about this book, again, called The Truth, we ll link it up in the show notes, one of the things about the book that s kind of scary and really interesting, and I think a lot of people are gonna get mad at you for, is it makes you think about your own issues and crap in your relationship and outside your relationship, and it makes you ask hard questions because you re being so vulnerable.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think a lot of people are not going to like you for that.
5
SPEAKER_01
Great.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s great.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that s, and by the way, thank you for saying that there really is the goal.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like if someone just reads it and it s an entertaining story and they laughed and they enjoyed the journey, that s cool.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I really do want people to ask the hard questions about themselves and maybe be confronted with the things that they try to avoid.
5
SPEAKER_01
So that s great that that would be the best reason ever to be hated.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah I agree and I think for me what came up speaking of over sharing right is that I m reading this book and I m in a very happy relationship you know I m gonna get engaged at some point very soon like the ring is in the friggin mail from the jeweler right now right and people who are listening may or may not know that.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I m looking at this and I m like, wow, all these questions you re asking about like, isn t this just hardwired male biology to want variety, and can I really be with one person, and all these questions about monogamy, these are things that I m thinking about looking at marriage.
5
SPEAKER_00
I would find it hard to believe that anybody going into a monogamous relationship, a marriage relationship for the rest of their life, ideally,
5
SPEAKER_00
has not thought about any of that stuff, and is also not going at it with delusions of this is gonna be perfect forever.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because I feel like if you have any sort of realistic grip on your own thought process, your own biology, and your own relationship history, you have to be thinking the same things.
5
SPEAKER_01
I can t wait to get to the end of the book because the answers are there and you ve got to call me as soon as you finish it and we got to talk because I can t wait to get the answers because those were all the questions and like I felt like I wasn t this book took five years because I m like I m not going to stop until I find the answers that really really work for me on a real level not just a you know a path okay here s a conclusion so
5
SPEAKER_01
I can t wait.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like literally, it s been five or six years since my last book in new material because writing about this subject you re talking about are the hardest questions.
5
SPEAKER_01
Learning how to meet women, okay, that s easy.
5
SPEAKER_01
Learning how to survive, you know, learn survival skills and survive in the wild.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like those are just skills you can learn.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like this one is, they re like the hardest questions.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I can t wait till you get to the end of it.
5
SPEAKER_01
I can t wait to get your thoughts.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I will text you the second I turn the last page.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s funny what you were saying about how this is so true.
5
SPEAKER_01
When I went to go get my kind of wedding ring sized, I walked in and the woman at the counter was like, you seem happy.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m like, yeah, of course I m happy.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m getting married.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s fucking awesome.
5
SPEAKER_01
And she s like, well, it s interesting.
5
SPEAKER_01
Most guys who come in don t seem happy.
5
SPEAKER_01
The women do, but the guys don t.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I thought, oh, that s fascinating.
5
SPEAKER_00
Wow, that s really interesting and for me, I procrastinated on the ring for a long time and my friend John Corcoran, who s been on the show as well, he s married and I go to him for a lot of stuff like counsel.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s funny because he s also one of my lawyers so I just trust him with stuff that s completely inappropriate to tell your lawyer because we re friends too.
5
SPEAKER_00
He goes, how s everything coming?
5
SPEAKER_00
What s the plans?
5
SPEAKER_00
Are you going to propose?
5
SPEAKER_00
And I go, I m having some difficulty with the jewelry.
5
SPEAKER_00
And he goes, translation, you re nervous about it.
5
SPEAKER_00
He s like, just do it.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you re thinking about it, he s like, trust me, every guy will procrastinate.
5
SPEAKER_00
They ll find some reason not to do this or not to go shopping.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it is nerve-wracking, because one, on its face, my fear was, well, you wanna get something that she likes, but the deeper and more obvious, now that I think about it, excuse is, look, when you buy this, that s when you re making the decision.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s not when you propose, and it s not when you go to get the marriage certificate.
5
SPEAKER_00
This is a legitimately big step towards the biggest decision, or one of the biggest decisions of your life.
5
SPEAKER_00
And if you re gonna swipe that card or write that check and go pick this thing out,
5
SPEAKER_00
You re making a bold statement, and you ve got to be comfortable with that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Don t try to distract yourself from it.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I really let that soak in, and it took a long time to let it fully marinate, if you will.
5
SPEAKER_00
That, I think, was healthy.
5
SPEAKER_00
I don t think buying it and just keeping your head down and suck it up and go buy it is a good plan.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think you should let it sit for a while, because a lot of stuff comes out.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think there s a line from a Tarkovsky movie that says a man has a fear
5
SPEAKER_01
of anything that is irreversible.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so, but I think also we can build that up.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like what you were just saying, we can build that up into a big story.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is it.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s the point of no return.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is forever.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m, you know, we re going to, you know, and then I think the future and the past get in the way of looking at the present.
5
SPEAKER_01
Another way to think about it is, Hey, I love her.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m so excited to get married to her.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m going to go get a ring for her.
5
SPEAKER_01
And whatever happens, happens.
5
SPEAKER_01
If it doesn t work out, we re adult enough that it won t work out.
5
SPEAKER_01
And we can go our separate ways.
5
SPEAKER_01
The commitment is to the moment, not necessarily to the future.
5
SPEAKER_01
And we definitely build it up in our head where it has to work out and it has to be forever.
5
SPEAKER_01
has to do this and that, and if we kind of let go of that, we can also just say, I love her, I feel really good, this feels really right, I m just gonna go with it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and why is that the case?
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it seems like this is such a future-facing decision that being present, yes, it s always nice to have that, but shouldn t we be thinking about things later on down the line, or am I missing your point?
5
SPEAKER_01
The point is we have no idea what s going to happen in the future.
5
SPEAKER_01
We have no clue.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like we have no clue.
5
SPEAKER_01
And all we know is what we re experiencing then.
5
SPEAKER_01
And we re not even sure about that because it might be going through our messed up filters.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you can t really predict the future.
5
SPEAKER_01
You kind of can t know the future.
5
SPEAKER_01
And also the rational mind is inherently like flawed.
5
SPEAKER_01
So.
5
SPEAKER_01
You guys could get hit by a truck tomorrow.
5
SPEAKER_01
Someone could get terminally ill the next day.
5
SPEAKER_01
Somebody could cheat.
5
SPEAKER_01
Anything could happen.
5
SPEAKER_01
And what you believe is going to happen is more influenced by your past than reality anyway.
5
SPEAKER_00
Excellent, well, so what s next for you, now that you ve kind of put a lot of dirty laundry out there?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I kind of want to do every book, I sit down to write one thing and it turns into another, but I really want to do a book about communication, and the idea, and I ve never done, like, most of my books are really just stories of, true stories that are in my life or other people s lives, and that really serve as metaphors to help one s life, or to just be funny and entertaining.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I kind of just really want to do a book about communication and the idea that what other people are saying has nothing to do with what you re hearing.
5
SPEAKER_01
There are so many kind of filters and past experiences and beliefs that things are going through that when you re sure someone said something or did something and you re sure about what they meant and it was for this reason,
5
SPEAKER_01
No.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I really want to do, like, I think it leads to murders.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think it leads to divorces and fights and all kinds of horrible things.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I would love to do a book, the goal being for people to question whether to really understanding someone when they speak.
5
SPEAKER_01
And even when they re, especially when they re so sure about it, because most of the time they don t, I m sure even
6
SPEAKER_02
Everyone hearing this radio show is thinking different things that are just coming from the basis of their own experience.
6
SPEAKER_02
Someone may think, what, this guy sounds like he, what does he know?
6
SPEAKER_02
Like, you know, what does this guy know?
6
SPEAKER_02
Or they might be thinking, oh, this guy went to rehab.
6
SPEAKER_02
This is like stupid sobriety talk.
6
SPEAKER_02
Like, they could be, or they might think, oh, this is really awesome.
6
SPEAKER_02
I want to go, like, everybody listening is having a different response.
6
SPEAKER_02
And that response has nothing to do with what I m saying.
6
SPEAKER_02
it has everything to do with your past experience.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, it s always done through that filter.
6
SPEAKER_01
And the filter would be a subject of a book entirely.
6
SPEAKER_02
And by the way, just to set the record straight about the whole rehab thing, I don t even know about sex addiction.
6
SPEAKER_02
I don t even know if I was or wasn t a sex addict, but I know that I learned so much and what I loved about rehab, and I think it s awesome, and I recommend it for everybody.
6
SPEAKER_02
is that it s the best therapy in the world, if you go to the right place by the way, because it has to work because lives are at stake.
6
SPEAKER_02
If you just pay like 100, 200 an hour, 300 an hour, I don t know how much a therapist costs, they cost a lot, to sit in front of someone and talk for an hour, they can just get away with just keeping you not bored or entertained or feeling like you got something for an hour.
6
SPEAKER_02
sort of when people have these addictions, lives are at stake.
6
SPEAKER_02
For me, it wasn t necessarily the 12-step stuff, but the stuff that goes deep into your childhood and looks at the parental experiences that shaped your beliefs was kind of life-changing, and I think the whole therapy model is broken.
6
SPEAKER_02
I think it s better to do a weekend intensive where you re really getting in touch with some deep, deep stuff.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s gonna be much more powerful than just talking to someone about your problems, problems in your life for an hour, and them giving you some advice or a couple good nuggets
6
SPEAKER_02
Wisdom.
6
SPEAKER_02
Therapy bootcamp.
6
SPEAKER_02
Therapy bootcamp.
6
SPEAKER_02
Boom.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s the next, it s the art of, what would you call it, the art of... Oh gosh, I don t know.
6
SPEAKER_02
The art of self-knowledge.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m trying to rhyme it with charm, which is really hard.
6
SPEAKER_01
When are we going back to North Korea?
6
SPEAKER_01
When are we going back to North Korea?
6
SPEAKER_01
I m thinking...
6
SPEAKER_01
later, either 2016 would be cool.
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If nothing literally or figuratively blows up, that would be really neat.
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Thanks so much, Neil Strauss.
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The Truth, available yesterday.
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Dang it, go buy it.
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It s linked up in the show notes or on Amazon.
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Where is the best place to buy books these days?
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Do you get better experience at a bookstore or do you just order online like everyone else?
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Like, honestly, if you want to help an author going to like, and you want to help a bookstore as well, I d support the indies, man.
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Go to an indie bookstore.
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Nice.
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Available at a bookstore near you, which you can find on the internet, because you probably don t even know where that is, unless you read all the time.
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Wow, excellent episode.
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I always love talking to Neil.
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Neil s the kind of guy where when we talk, I almost wish that we recorded every conversation we have, because a lot of them are just like this one, only maybe better organized and done in person.
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So I always love having him on the show, and we re gonna do plenty more with him, I m sure, in the future, because that s the guy who just does not stop putting out great stuff.
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I do recommend highly the book The Truth.
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I know that we have a lot of authors and books on here, but this is a really good read.
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It s really fun, and it s a novel.
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super heavy duty.
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There s a lot to chew on, but it s not so chewy, if that makes any sense.
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Show feedback and guest suggestions, the show s a fanarchy, it s run by you.
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We rely on you to help keep our finger on the pulse, so if you know someone who s a good fit for the show, let us know, guests at theartofcharm.com.
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If you enjoyed this, don t forget to thank Neil on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes, as well as all the other resources and his book that we mentioned on the show.
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You can tap our album art in Most Podcast Players to see the show notes right on your phone.
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I also post a lot on Twitter, stuff that never makes it to the show.
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I m at The Art of Charm on Twitter.
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Bootcamp details at theartofcharm.com or bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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Remember, we sell out several months in advance, so plan ahead, get info from us now, make it happen.
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Subscribe and review in iTunes.
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Of course, we have our iPhone and Android apps available as well.
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Special thanks to the Jasons for their help in production of the Art of Charm podcast.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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Now have a great week, and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to The Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and everything for the extraordinary man at theartofcharmpodcast.com.