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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re back with Sally Hogshead.
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We re going to be discussing, well, some of my particular personality quirks, but also those of my producer, and more importantly, we re going to be talking about the results of the Art of Charm audience at large, according to the personality test that Sally gave.
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There s a lot of new material here, so if you re a Sally Hogshead fan, there s going to be a lot of things in here that you haven t heard, and not just about
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where my dysfunctions lie, but in the results as a whole, what those mean for you and how you can apply them or not apply them to get great results in your business and in your home life.
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So enjoy this episode with Sally.
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And by the way, if you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the Art of Charm Toolbox.
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That s where we discuss things like reading body language and having charismatic nonverbal communication, the science of attraction, negotiation techniques, networking and influence strategies, mentorship,
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persuasion tactics, and everything else that we teach here at the Art of Charm.
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So check that out at theartofcharm.com and also at theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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You can find the full show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show.
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All right, here s Sally Hogshead.
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Today we re back with my friend Sally Hogshead, who was on the show just recently, discussing her book, Fascinate, and of course, you re like the personality test queen, Sally, somehow.
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And I don t mean that in a Cosmo kind of way, I mean that in more of a StrengthsFinder 2.0 kind of way.
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Cool, cool, yeah, I m down with you on that.
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We had 3,400 people, so we re closing in on 4,000 people now from your community do the assessment.
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So we got some pretty incredible results, which I ll share with you later.
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That s insane, especially because the show didn t come out that long ago, and frankly, we only mentioned it a few times on the show.
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We didn t mail it out or anything.
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I m very pleasantly surprised by that.
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And I saw some of the results here, which I want to discuss later as well, and we ll make that available to people on the Art of Charm website as a blog post, and we ll figure that out as well.
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Great, yeah, great.
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It s pretty remarkable.
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I m excited to be able to share it with you, because we measured a million people, and your audience is different than any group we ve ever measured.
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Really?
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Wow.
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I m gonna keep a little curiosity going.
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We can talk about that one later, Jordan.
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Yes, let s do it.
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But let s talk about, right now, let s talk about personality danger zones and situations that might be, where we might be seen in a negative light and what we can do about it.
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Yeah, every person s personality and personal brand has certain qualities that make them incredibly attractive.
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And these are measurable.
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This is what I ve spent my career measuring.
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How are you most likely to make a positive impression?
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How are you most likely to impress and influence?
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the person who s sitting on the other side of the table, who s sitting in the audience when you re giving a speech.
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But another part of what we discovered in our research is that there are very specific and predictable ways that you can make a negative first impression.
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In other words, ways that you can damage your personal brand, ways that make people less likely to return your call or listen to you at work.
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So to give you an example of what I m talking about,
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You love humor.
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We love humor.
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The show has a lot of great wit around it.
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But let s take a guy.
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We ll name him Joe.
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That s generous.
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But thank you.
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Continue.
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Joe.
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Let s say Joe thinks he s really funny.
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And as far as he s concerned, a sense of humor is one of his best traits.
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But there s only one problem, which is nobody else thinks Joe is funny.
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Story of my life.
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That is a problem.
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You know, if just because you think you re funny, if nobody else thinks you re funny, then by definition you are not funny.
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It s a two sided exchange.
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That s a good point.
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It s a feedback loop.
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Yeah, so this loop goes between the joke teller and the audience.
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And so it s not enough to just think about how do you see your audience?
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Do you think a joke is funny?
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What really matters is what kind of perception does your audience have about you?
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If they re not in sync with you, if they re not listening and and laughing, or if they re not hiring you and agreeing with you, then you re probably not making a great impression.
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So
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In our last show, we were talking about how important it is to understand how other people see you, that it s not just like Myers-Briggs and Dysk and Colby and other personality tests.
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That it s not today it s not a matter of how do you see the world it s a matter of thinking how does the other person see you at your best how are you most likely to be able to create a relationship with them quickly to engage with them so here s the bad news they re also certain traits that are almost like a fatal flaw within your personality and when you go into this space you re gonna turn people off.
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You re going to step on toes, you re going to damage your reputation.
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People are going to be far less likely to want to be friends with you, to hire you, to attract you.
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We found is there s a formula behind this and it s kind of the flip side of what your number one advantage is.
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So let me describe what I mean.
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There s certain situations when you get stressed, you get tired.
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you feel out of whack, and you kind of become exaggeratedly one-dimensional in your personality.
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And when this happens, the quality that makes people most likely to respect and like you becomes a disadvantage.
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So let s take a power personality.
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Power personalities are strong, they re emphatic, they re confident, they re great leaders.
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But when they start becoming
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aggressive banging their fist on the table then they not only are they gonna not get people to be on their team but they re gonna make people less likely to buy into their ideas.
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Sometimes people who are trustworthy they re very consistent they re great at building relationships they like to be able to do things the same way over and over again which makes people feel comfortable with them makes people feel relaxed but when trust personalities become locked in on one way of doing things
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Well, that s kind of a turnoff.
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It s the guy who says, oh, I don t need to use email because that s a newfangled technology or somebody who just won t get with a new program at work.
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So here s the thing to think about.
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What are the qualities that allow you to shine?
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And then in stressful situations, how are you flipping those around to have negative qualities?
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It s almost like when you have certain advantages that allow you to stand out,
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It becomes too much of a good thing when you re hungry when you have a deadline i call this a double trouble because you re taking your number one top trade you re doubling up on it and you re creating a negative reputation.
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Most of us have a core advantage at work.
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We have certain ways that we know there are projects that we work on or people that we work with that make us most likely to succeed.
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I m a really creative thinker.
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I love doing things when I can kind of run with it.
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I don t like to be restricted to a certain rigid format.
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But when I get too creative, like when I get kind of ADD-ish, it s really hard for people to keep up with what I m talking about.
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And that s what happens with a lot of creative thinkers.
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One of the things that we found in your group, Jordan,
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Is you have a lot of really creative people in your audience so here s the upside of creativity allows you to come up with new solutions the downside of creativity is that it makes people feel like you re being erratic because you re not following that rigid structure.
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On the flip side, people who are really detail-oriented, who are meticulous, that could be an advantage too.
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But when people become too detail-oriented, they re seen like control freaky.
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So that s why it s important for you to be able to find people who can compensate with you at work so that your positive attributes don t turn into pitfalls.
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Right, right, because otherwise you turn out to be the micromanager.
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Well, you know, this should be a different font.
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Otherwise, good job.
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And it s like, I want to kill you.
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Right.
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Yeah, thanks.
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Thanks, Guy.
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You ve probably seen this happen.
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Let s say you work in a startup or in an office.
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Somebody who scores really high on alert, meaning they re really good at details,
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They usually come over to the person who s really creative, and they re like, okay, we have a deadline at five o clock, it s two o clock, just making sure that you are gonna be done on time.
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And the creative person s like, I haven t even really started coming up with the exact idea yet.
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Creative people love to be able to push it to the last minute.
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So the creative person is taking too much time to think of something new.
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The alert personality is being too rigid, closing someone into a box.
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And this is why there s a lot of friction among people at work.
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The key is to know how you re most likely to make a positive impression, but watch out because there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.
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Yeah, this seems like it could be a really, you could throw people off balance here, and I notice that our audience results are really interesting.
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I definitely want to have a further discussion about that, but how do we know if we re heading into our personality danger zone, some place where we re going to be out of our element or be seen in a negative light?
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How do we, are there warning signs that we can look at where we re like, oh, you re walking into a minefield right now?
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Yeah, that s a great question.
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When does it happen?
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And the answer is it usually happens at the worst time possible.
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Can you give me an example of a type of situation that totally stresses you out?
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Something where you know you re going to start to freak out where that little alarm button inside of your brain is going to start dinging?
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Right, okay, so maybe I feel like we re not moving forward, or I m not moving forward, and all of the other people who are supposed to be working with me on a project take my feedback and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, just write that in an email, and we ll get to it.
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And I know that it s just going into a file where they re like, this is where Jordan vents, and then we do our own thing and go to lunch.
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And it drives me fucking crazy.
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And then we get even more stressed, and you probably get pissed off.
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Oh yeah.
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And part of the reason why you re so good at what you do, we talked about last time,
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that you score really high in achievement and confidence.
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And so when something gets in the way of you being able to deliver a result, that s pretty stressful for you.
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And also because you re in a position of leadership.
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So when you start to get in those types of situations, it s important for you to think, am I starting to hit the freak out level where my stress is overriding my ability to communicate in an effective way?
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Are you starting to push people so hard or so ineffectively that they re gonna shut down and walk away from you?
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When you fall into this kind of danger zone, here s what that s gonna look like.
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What you re describing is called the aggressor.
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It s somebody who becomes so focused on the end goal, on the accomplishment, that it s almost like they ll do a scorched earth philosophy to make sure that things get finished.
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And then they become impatient.
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And for other people, that can feel really, really uncomfortable because they turn into small woodland creatures.
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Here s another example.
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We ve all had the situation where we re working with somebody
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Um, and he s social and he s expressive and he s got a big heart.
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Uh, he s warm and approachable.
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He builds connections.
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Everybody kind of like loves having him in the meeting or having him in the party, sort of the heart and soul of the company.
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But then one day he has say, uh, um, something, something that happens that hurts his feelings or insults him, or there s really an awkward vibe going on with somebody else at work.
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And then all of a sudden it s like.
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wow, just way too much emotion.
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It almost feels like it s theatrical.
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And it kind of shows you a little bit of a different light of his personality, sort of like TMI.
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People kind of back away, like having a raw nerve ending around.
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And that s when somebody s passion, which is normally a positive and normally helps that person become more successful, becomes a huge danger zone for them.
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The one way that we want to make sure that we can know that it s happening is a couple of things.
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You don t have to change who you are.
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So it s not Jordan.
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It s not that you don t want to be confident and goal oriented.
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It s just that you need to be attuned to how your communication style is affecting your relationships and affecting the kind of impression you re making on other people.
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Like I said a moment ago, I score really high in innovation.
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So for me, creativity is something that feels very natural.
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It feels energizing to me.
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But I also have to be careful that when I m in that brainstorming mode coming up with a whole bunch of different ideas, I have to make sure that my clients or my team members have to be able to see how I m connecting the dots.
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Otherwise, it feels like random chaos to them.
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So for all of us, that s the case.
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And do our personality types are where we end up getting into a personality danger zone?
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This obviously depends on our personality type, right?
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Since I m in a leadership role, since I m a hard charger for both good and bad, I m gonna end up in that same problem.
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But what about Jason?
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What are Jason s personality danger zones?
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Jason s an avant-garde.
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That s what we learned last time when he did the assessment.
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Jason s going to get really frustrated when things feel like they re getting stuck.
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It s similar to you because you two have similar scores.
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But Jason likes to be able to see what s next.
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He doesn t want to repeat things.
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He wants to be able to constantly be chomping on something that s going to be around the corner.
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So for him, he gets frustrated when he feels like people are stuck in the mud.
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He doesn t like patterns.
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He really thrives on being able to invent his way as he goes.
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He wants to be able to raise standards, but he wants to do that through creativity.
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So for Jason, one of the things that he s going to need to watch out for is, first of all, that he isn t perceived as being cold or judgmental or imperious.
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He doesn t want to seem like he s being arrogant or superior, because if he starts getting
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kind of, uh, um, if he has ideas, snobbery, then it s going to push people away.
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It s going to shut people down.
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Have you ever seen them get in that mode?
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Oh my God.
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You kidding me?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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He has a whole hard charging Harbinger.
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Your whole show is, is idea snobbery.
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It s all stupid people.
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Grumpy is it s called grumpy old geeks.
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So your greatest, your greatest strength is your worst weakness.
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In this case, the way you re most likely to make a positive impression and to contribute
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to, to your brand is also the way in which you re going to undercut your ability to make connections.
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And what happens is when, once you start turning people off in consistent and predictable ways, like by being, um, an idea snob on one hand, which is a good thing, but by being arrogant is not a good thing.
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People stop wanting to reach out and connect with you.
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Yeah.
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Well, I don t need those people anyway.
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That s actually, that is not a bad point.
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I am not good at.
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rigid schedules and fixed routine.
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It bugs the crap out of me.
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It s not gonna allow me to be at my best.
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And that s a pattern that we saw in tremendous consistency throughout the 3,400 people who ve done the Art of Charm Fascination Advantage Assessment with the code that we gave.
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Pete, your audience loves creativity.
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They don t like oversharing.
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They don t want to have to hold other people s hands, metaphorically.
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They like to be confident, but they don t like to be overbearing.
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They re uncomfortable in situations where they have to go direct head-on-head competition, and they hate details.
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So that doesn t describe every single person in the group, but as a whole, your audience likes to be creative, nimble, independent, observant, and taking action in their own way on their own schedule.
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That sounds like a lot of the people that write.
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And I mean, we get such a diverse group of folks here at AOC.
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And in fact, that s a nice segue into the results of the entire AOC audience, which took this exact test.
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And is it too late for people to grab their test?
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I mean, it seems like if they listen to this and they re super interested, they should be able to go back and do it.
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But I want to make sure that s okay with you first.
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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We re gonna keep the code open for a while longer.
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And one of the things that we wanna do is make sure that we share all these results with you.
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So what we could do is we can give you a fresh set of analytics that people can see themselves represented.
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It might help for me to give a quick bit of background on the research behind this, just so in a snapshot.
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Most personality assessments, like I mentioned a moment ago, they re based on psychology.
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So they re based on how you see the world.
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And I flipped it around and created the first algorithm that measures how do other people see you at your best.
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So it s not based on psychology, it s based on branding.
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And out of the million people we ve tested, we found that if we have 200 people, we can get a pretty good idea of a certain group.
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But for your group, we have 3,400 people, which means it s very statistically significant.
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What you ll see in here is out of the people who took it, they don t want to be dominant.
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They don t like to be dogmatic.
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Instead, they like to be able to collaborate and to share ideas.
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More than anything, they re irked by consistency.
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So they don t want to have the same thing served over and over again.
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Their number one advantage, in other words, the number one advantage that s most likely to define how they re seen at their best, is they communicate with substance.
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They don t like fluff.
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They don t like rah-rah.
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They like to listen before they speak.
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They love to consume content and they like to be able to open up themselves slowly.
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In other words, they re not going to wear their hot on their sleeve.
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They re not going to jump right into the center of the dance floor and instead they want to watch, listen and learn.
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And I think that s really reflected by the way you guys add so much great content and that you always have great takeaways and that, um,
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that the shows are never about superficial inspiration, or here s what you could do.
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It s very much about action steps that people can take as soon as they re done listening.
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Yeah, we strive for concrete takeaways.
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We strive for practicals, obviously, of course, in every show that we do, because otherwise it s no good if it s just, here s a bunch of random stuff I learned that you can t apply.
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That s your way of doing it.
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I totally agree with you, but there are a lot of really successful podcasts that are fluffy.
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I mean, that s a pejorative word.
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That are much more about let your spirit soar and let s just talk about what feels good.
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And that s not your style and that s not the way in which you re going to be perceived at your best.
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Yeah, I think for me personally, for us, we like to be well-prepared and detail-oriented, but yeah, it makes sense that our audience is also a bunch of folks that are kind of like us where details, yes, but mostly results.
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Less about the details, more about the results.
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Yeah, and also about, it s one thing to focus on the details that really matter.
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It s another thing to be just anal compulsive.
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You know, like we were talking about the control freak a moment ago, sort of details for the sake of details.
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So what can we gather from the data from the Art of Charm participants?
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I m looking at a lot of spreadsheets here.
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It looks like, yes, people don t like to be in regular routines.
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They like to constantly and consistently be working on something new here, but it looks like our highest...
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indicators are our highest little bars on this graph here, and we ll make this available to everybody at theartofcharm.com and the website and this post and the show notes here.
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Passion and mystique, and then that s the general population, and the Art of Charm population just has a ton more mystique than the average population.
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Yeah, no, it s crazy.
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It s 75% more than the average population.
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In other words, it s almost double the average population who have primary mystique.
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in social media, people who, instead of going and buzzing around the office, they like to listen to high-quality content, they like to observe and absorb, they like to learn before they speak.
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And so that s something that makes a lot of sense, that people are so involved with your podcast in kind of a wonderfully fanatical way.
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I m okay with the fanaticism.
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I don t know.
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What do you think, Jason?
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Feeds my complex adequately?
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Yeah, it s right up your alley.
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Yeah.
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Well, let s talk for just a moment about also what happens when Mystique goes wrong, when it turns into this danger zone.
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People have primary Mystique advantage.
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They re strategic, they re cool-headed, they re great at negotiations because they don t
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They don t play their hand too quickly.
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But if they rely too much on mystique and they feel like they re getting pushed too hard, they close up.
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They re seen as unemotional or mechanical or disinterested.
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And so that s an important thing.
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If you do have a primary mystique to know that about yourself, that sometimes you have to say, you re doing a presentation.
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If you look like you don t care, nobody else is going to care.
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right okay so so we kind of we have to pay attention to that carefully and of course we have to make sure that we re as we usually do here at AOC paying attention to how we re being perceived because it seems like
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especially if we re used to being able to display high engagement and things like that, the problem is if we stop doing that and we go back to our baseline, people just think, oh, he s disinterested or doesn t care, he s disengaged, even if we re just thinking about something else.
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And I know that for me, that s been a problem in the past, is just, even Jen will say like,
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you didn t pay any attention to my parents  friends.
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And I m thinking, I m studying Chinese and they re all speaking Chinese.
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And I m trying to figure out what I m going to say next.
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So yeah, I m not smiling and bantering back and forth or whatever.
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I mean, I m occupied with other things, but that doesn t cut it when you re looking at niceties and manners and things like that.
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I also noticed that the language of creativity among the AOC audience is higher than average.
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Very much higher.
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In fact, it is
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It s 34 percent higher.
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So what that means is this is you have an audience that wants to change the game.
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They don t like we were talking about a moment ago.
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They don t want to keep doing the same things over and over.
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They don t want to get stuck in a rut.
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They d rather have the opportunity to build their own schedule and to
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to change how they re doing things.
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A lot of people are really uncomfortable with innovation.
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They don t want to be put in a position where they have to make it up as they go along.
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When I talk to authors, there are kind of two camps of authors.
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Half of them want to be able to have complete free reign to be able to write, write in their own way, whether it s fiction or nonfiction.
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And the other half wants, they want to have a structure from their editor.
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So there isn t one that s right or wrong, but like we were saying earlier, we were talking about how being funny is in the eye of the beholder.
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Humor is in the eye of the beholder.
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So with likability, leadership, all kinds of subjective qualities, it s rooted in the perception of others.
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So you might see yourself as lovable, but if people see you as cold-hearted, there s a disconnect.
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If you think you re respected,
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but nobody agrees, you re out of luck.
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If you think you re practical but nobody else thinks so, then you re not practical.
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If you think you re good with kids, but kids cry and run to the other side of the street, then you re not good with kids.
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And that s why it s so important.
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Unless you really don t like kids, then that s the perfect outcome.
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Yeah.
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There you go.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Other than that.
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So don t, don t try to become a birthday party clown.
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So this is, this is kind of the key takeaway.
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Look at yourself from the outside in.
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systematically measure the effect that you re having on your listener so that you can improve it instead of just having connections and relationships and good impressions be something that s luck of the draw.
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We want to make sure that it s a matter of choice, that it s not random.
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If you re a comedian, then it s really important for you to understand if other people think you re funny.
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If you re a crisis negotiator, it s really important to know if other people are listening to what you re saying as you re saying it.
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That s a different way of us thinking about relationships, to think that we can t talk for the sake of talking.
2
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We have to think if we re adding value, if we re contributing to the other person, because once they tune us.
2
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Over the last 17 years, we have launched our fair share of online courses, coaching programs, and finding the right platform has always been a challenge.
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SPEAKER_01
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SPEAKER_01
Hey Art of Charm listeners, I m excited to share a new podcast I ve been absolutely binging.
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SPEAKER_01
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Listen to Ways to Win wherever you get your podcasts.
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SPEAKER_03
Now we ve talked about what the AOC audience is, mystique, innovation, that s awesome and super flattering.
2
SPEAKER_03
Let s talk about what the AOC audience is not, which is shockingly low in the alert category.
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Yes, yes.
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We were talking a little bit before about alert personalities.
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I myself as an individual score very low in alert.
2
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That means I m really not good at micromanaging.
2
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I m not good at Excel docs.
2
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Spreadsheets make me want to shove a mechanical pencil in my eye.
2
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So when I m working on a project, I m not going to be good at the details.
2
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Otherwise, it s going to be exhausting for me.
2
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So that s why I partner with people who really are good with the details.
2
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Your audience as a whole is 50 percent less likely than the average population to have alert.
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That means
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They score far, far lower than the million people that we ve measured in the average population.
2
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And that s not a bad thing.
2
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It just means that when people have to do something that s detail-oriented, if they score low on alert like me, they have a choice.
2
SPEAKER_00
They can either delegate it to someone else, like having a partnership.
2
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They can discipline themselves.
2
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to focus on it in a hardcore way, maybe one hour a day, they do all the minutiae in their email inbox, or they can delete it by simply deciding that that s not part of what they re gonna offer professionally.
2
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I make a point of never doing things that involve spreadsheets.
2
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I either have my team do it, or I choose just not to do it.
2
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And that s where the research comes in behind this.
2
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I don t create the spreadsheets, but I did all the research behind it initially.
2
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We all have certain ways in which we have advantages, and to focus on that, to not try to change it, to become more of who you are is the best way that you re gonna add value.
2
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Not by being all things to all people.
2
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Right, so don t try to get well-rounded with all this stuff.
2
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Focus on your strengths.
2
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Well rounded sucks.
2
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You know well rounded is a myth that worked really really well about a decade ago because you didn t have to be extraordinary in any one particular area.
2
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When when we ve when we ve gone in and measured high performers in companies like like Twitter high performers aren t good at everything.
2
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They don t try to be good at everything.
2
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They re specialists.
2
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in specific areas in which they can radically over deliver and that s kind of the key of understanding everything that we re talking about now you don t have to make everybody happy you don t have to always make a positive first impression in fact you shouldn t and you can t but you do need to know the situations in which you have the highest likelihood of winning so that you can go and play a game and over deliver in the way that s gonna feel most natural and energizing for you.
2
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Sally, thank you so much, and by the way, if you want to take this quiz, if you re interested in the AOC results and you want your own results, you can go to howtofascinate.com slash you and use the conference code charm.
2
SPEAKER_03
A lot of people said, oh, I bought the full thing, and I thought, it s free, but okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s free.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
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People can upgrade if they want to.
3
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but they can get the basis of their results.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then they can compare it with other people, with the body of people who ve already done it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and it s super interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thanks so much, Sally, for taking the time.
3
SPEAKER_02
Cool beans.
3
SPEAKER_02
Thanks, you guys.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s always great talking with you.
3
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Thank you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Likewise.
3
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Bye-bye.
3
SPEAKER_01
Great big thank you to Sally Hogshead.
3
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The book, of course, is fascinating if you re not already a huge Sally Hogshead fan.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if you enjoyed this, don t forget to thank Sally on Twitter.
3
SPEAKER_01
We ll have that linked in the show notes as well.
3
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Remember, you can tap your phone screen in most mobile podcast players to see the show notes for this episode, and we ll link to the show notes directly on your phone.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m also on Twitter, at The Art of Charm, and it s a great way to engage with us.
3
SPEAKER_01
Also, I post a lot of articles and insights and other things there.
3
SPEAKER_01
Our live programs are at theartofcharm.com as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is by far and away my favorite part of running The Art of Charm.
3
SPEAKER_01
The results that people are getting in our live programs over the last 10 years are just incredible.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s so much fun, it s fun to watch, it s fun to take part in, so definitely check us out there, bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if you re new to what we re doing here, I encourage you to join the AOC Challenge.
3
SPEAKER_01
at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or if you re in the states, you can text the word charmed, C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
3
SPEAKER_01
The challenge is about improving your networking skills and your connection skills and inspiring those around you to develop personal and professional relationships with you.
3
SPEAKER_01
We ll also email you our Fundamentals Toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show, and I do regular videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward.
3
SPEAKER_01
It ll make you a better networker, a better connector, and, of course, a better thinker.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed, C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
3
SPEAKER_01
For the full show notes for this and all previous episodes, head on over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
3
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This episode of AOC was produced by Jason DeFilippo.
3
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor, and the show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
3
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
3
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
3
SPEAKER_01
So stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
3
SPEAKER_00
Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.