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This is The Art of Charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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The Art of Charm is where ordinary guys become extraordinary men.
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Welcome to The Art of Charm, I m Jordan Harbinger.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
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Imagine having a mix of experienced mentors teaching you their expertise, packing decades of research, testing, and tough lessons into a curriculum.
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We may not have all the answers, but we definitely have all the questions.
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Make sure to stay up to date with AOC and get some great stuff that we don t or can t share on the show by signing up for the newsletter at theartofcharm.com.
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That s where we ll email you our Fundamentals Toolkit.
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Covers topics like body language, nonverbal communication, dating, attraction, persuasion.
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business networking, public speaking, negotiation, and a whole lot more.
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And we ve got our live programs running every single week here in LA.
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In fact, we ve got people from all over the world, which shows that no matter where you are, you can make it here if you re committed to yourself.
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We re sold out a couple months in advance, actually about three, four months in advance.
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So if you re thinking about it, get in touch now by phone or email me, jordanattheartofcharm.com.
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Get some info from us now so you can plan ahead.
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Looking forward to meeting you here at AOC.
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Today we re talking with my friend Alex Kutz.
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He s been on the show before.
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You ve heard it a bunch.
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We re gonna talk about getting hired at a startup.
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This is a pretty unique episode.
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Even if you re not thinking about getting hired at a tech startup, it might be interesting for you.
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If not, move along.
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But we re gonna talk about what startups are first of all, why they re unique, why this
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atmosphere of high ambiguity suits certain people and doesn t suit most of us, how to get into certain roles and what those roles might be that are available in startups, some stories of successful startup hires that are highly unusual to say the least, and of course how to get meetings, ask for meetings, suggesting meeting times, all of that and more on this episode of The Art of Charm.
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Enjoy this one with Alex Coutts.
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A lot of people write in, they re like, I work for a small, or I run a small startup out of Dayton, Ohio.
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And I m like, okay, cool, who is it?
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And it s them and their brother-in-law, and they re in a basement.
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But it s kind of not a startup because they re consultants, or it s not a startup because it s not, I mean, what is a startup?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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It s a really tough thing to define, right?
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It s kind of like, you know, what is a star really, right?
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Like, oh, no.
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Well, startups are basically very young companies, right?
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Very young companies and things are very mushy.
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There s a lot of things going on at any point.
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But in reality, they haven t really figured out what they want to be when they grow up.
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So it s kind of a combination of a lot of people that may or may not have a business plan with some type of idea for a product and a user, although they may not be fleshed out really yet.
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But they re in the early stages where things are moving very quickly and breaking very fast.
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So there s a couple of things that kind of define startups.
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One is limited resources, right?
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So a normal big company, there could be, you know, an HR department with a budget and like all these things.
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a sales department and a market advisor.
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A startup is normally like two or three guys or girls sitting in a room, eating burritos, throwing Hail Marys.
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It s limited resources is one of the big hallmarks of a startup.
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Another is an environment of high ambiguity.
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As a startup, you don t know what your product is going to be when you grow up.
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A lot of startups are trying to find something called product market fit.
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which is a term coined a long time ago and very well explained by Marc Andreessen, who s a famous investor.
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If you Google product market fit and Marc Andreessen, you can get a good definition of that.
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Basically, what that means is that the product that the startup has built perfectly meets a need that s in the market and that people are willing to pay for that good or service, even if they don t.
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Facebook is free as an example, but people would start paying for it tomorrow if they charge millions and millions of people because they re addicted.
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Another better startup that s cheaper would probably come along and eat their lunch for them.
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they ve hit on a need that is so strong that people would pay for it.
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I m trying to think if I would pay for Facebook and the answer is yes, even though I don t like that answer.
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Does that make sense?
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Yeah, it s like looking in the mirror, it s pretty painful.
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Yeah, it can be rough.
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So startups are unique in that way.
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They re creating something unique that meets the market.
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Don t all companies do that?
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I feel like everyone right now is like, duh, I m making something people want to buy.
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Yeah, I mean, so every startup, especially software startups, are built on some underlying assumption about human behavior.
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So the idea is that they have something that they understand about the way that people behave or the things that they want that s different than what s in the market.
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Now, there are a lot of companies that build solutions for things that already exist and, quite frankly, never find a foothold in the market because they don t do what s already been done better than it s being done currently.
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But they re always trying, right?
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They re looking for that slightly different perspective.
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And some are extremely disruptive, right?
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There s tons of companies doing things with blood analysis and body hacking and all kinds of things that have never been done before, which are awesome.
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You and I were just talking about a toilet that analyzes your poop and tells you if you re eating enough asparagus.
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Yeah, we were talking about what we wanted to get each other for Christmas and that was top of the list for both of us.
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Yeah, I m in on poop analysis toilets.
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Yeah.
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So another thing that is definitely a definition – a definitional element of a startup relative to other bigger companies is that every situation in the startup demands very high level of ownership for the things that need to happen.
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So – What does that mean?
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Yeah, yeah.
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It s a good question.
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So in a corporation, if I don t do my job, there s likelihood that somebody else may do it, right?
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Which means that there s some element of it that I just don t really own because eventually someone will do this or it will get done.
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In a startup, if
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A specific task needs to be done.
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You ve got to do it or no one s going to do it because there s nobody else.
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There may only be three, four people in the company, 10, 12 people, whatever.
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So you have to have this very high degree of ownership.
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In addition, startups are passion plays for a lot of people.
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Typically startups don t pay as well as large companies.
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And even if you work at a startup and even if the startup has an exit, like an IPO or gets sold or something like that, a lot of those people end up making less than they would if they went to a very big company and work for a period of time.
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So a lot of people that choose the startup route are very, very passionate what they re doing.
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And as a result.
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want to own the outputs and the inputs of everything, so they ll want to design, they ll want to implement, build, be part of it.
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So those are the people that are like, look, this, and you see this in movies, well, I see it at restaurants in Silicon Valley, where people are like, look, this is changing the way that people pay for things, because they want to pay in bodily fluids instead of money, or whatever the newest thing is, and people are like, maybe, and then they re like, you don t understand, it s like, nobody really goes to work
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in Detroit, for example, where I grew up, and goes, you don t understand, this car is so much better than the other model of car by the other competing auto company that s exactly the same type and the same niche.
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Nobody s really doing that.
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Yeah, I mean, it s part of startup culture, and it s specifically endemic to Silicon Valley, which is like, everybody out here is a zealot, right?
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They really believe that what they re doing is gonna change the world.
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We ve been eating bananas like monsters for the past 250 years.
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There s a better way to do it.
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And actually, one of the best pages ever on Amazon is this product that slices bananas.
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And if you look at the reviews of it, that type of tone is the best possible way to describe what it feels like to be in a startup, which is the stupid little plastic thing that slices bananas.
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like once at a time, just like six little slices.
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Like a slap chop for bananas.
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Exactly.
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Specifically and only for bananas.
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Right.
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And people were like, oh my God, like, I don t know what I ve been doing with my life until this thing came around.
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It s literally changed everything.
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There s a world before and after the banana slice.
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Have you seen the Bic Pen review page on Amazon where there s like 18,000 and it s like, my life was incomplete.
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Sure, I have three kids, but I had never handled one of these babies before.
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That s right.
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Yeah, but you have to have that in a startup.
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You have to really believe because it s a very tough thing.
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I mean, I ve worked in startups my entire career and there are months and months and months on hand where I will work 100 hours a week.
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I mean, I didn t take a vacation for three and a half years.
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And I mean like working on weekends every day, 90, 100 hour weeks because that s what it took to get the company to where it needed to be.
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Unless you have that type of dedication, unless that s something that you want, it s going to be a tough place to be.
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But, you know, it s rewarding on the other side of it because you do really get to build something and see it evolve every day as a direct result of the things you ve done, which is amazing and hard to find.
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That is cool.
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I d like to balance that with something that I ve talked about here and there on the show, which is the post office days when you wake up in the morning and you don t want to do anything with your startup and you just want to go get a job at the post office.
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Because because you would rather it s that or you you just like crawl back into bed and Pretend that this day never happened pick up your phone.
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Hey mom come pick me up Yeah, you fly home, and you go to sleep for a week.
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Yeah, those are the post office days, and I had a lot of them I remember
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As passionate as I was about the Art of Charm, going by construction sites on Sundays and going, look at those guys.
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They re in the sun.
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They re going to be done in like three hours.
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When I exited grad school, I had an opportunity to go into investment banking or consulting.
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That s a lot of things that people who get MBAs typically go into.
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The roles pay very, very well.
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You get flown all over the world.
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You re meeting with CEOs.
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You re doing all this great stuff, getting paid awesomely.
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Your pay has to increase dramatically over time because that s what the industry supports.
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When I decided to go into a startup and make less than a third of what I was offered from like an investment banking job and I had to make a principle decision at that point and I got to be honest with you, as tough as it is, as you may not make as much money as if you re going to a company like that, it is completely
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100% worth it.
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And it led me to starting my own company and doing lots of other cool stuff that I never would have had access to.
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And, you know, I get a lot of people who are in undergraduate school or grad school and they re trying to say, you know, well, do I go into a startup?
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Do I go into a big company?
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And one of the big things I tell them is that a good analogy for it is that going into a startup is almost like CrossFit for professional life.
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Yeah, that s a good analogy.
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Yeah.
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Because I mean, CrossFit s fun.
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And I don t do CrossFit.
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I ll say that.
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Like, full disclosure, because there s that joke, right?
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How you tell somebody who does CrossFit, don t worry, they ll tell you.
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They ll tell you, yeah.
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But I don t do CrossFit, but CrossFit focuses on functional movement, right?
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Like non-linear movement.
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So I could do bicep curls until the cows come home, but then I get pushed in one weird direction and I pull up.
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a ligament because I m only moving in this one linear direction.
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CrossFit is very cross-functional.
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It s moving around in circles, all kinds of patterns.
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So you develop this ability in a startup to do tons of different things because you re pushed in every possible direction.
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I ve done marketing.
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I ve done sales.
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I ve done management.
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I ve done engineering coding work.
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I ve done design work.
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I ve done product management work, all kinds of things.
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because that was what the situation demanded, and I never would have had that flexibility at a bigger company.
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So startups are unique in that way, and you end up with more responsibility, but there s also an atmosphere of high ambiguity that I think a lot of people maybe are not suited to.
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It s always exciting to be like, I m in marketing, and I m in engineering, and I m in sales, and I m in design, but the ambiguity is what kills people.
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That s what they don t see coming.
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That s, that s a great point.
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I mean, I ve hired lots of people from bigger companies and I tend to shy away from it now because they have difficulty dealing with things that are outside of their traditional role definition, right?
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Because they re used to doing this one singular thing.
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And in a startup, you know, you may not have that, right?
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You have role ambiguity where you do lots of things, which can be.
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Very off putting because you don t feel like you have a center.
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You don t feel you have a clear understanding of what you do, and you have to be comfortable with that.
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The other part of the ambiguity is not just role.
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It s that the company could be dead tomorrow.
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It s that we can run out of money.
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The market could shift.
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Google could decide to do what we do already, and the company could be gone.
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So you have the ambiguity of not knowing what you re doing.
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The ambiguity of not knowing where the company is going to be in a month, a week, who knows?
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And, you know, I had a friend, this guy who was a CTO of a company that I was at years ago who said, you know, there s no sense in projecting past 12 months for a startup because in 13 months we ll all be dead anyway.
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Right, okay.
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And that ambiguity is what most people can t stand.
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And I definitely understand that, especially if you have a lot of qualifications and you re looking back at your investment banking job and your friends there, and you re going, look, I m sure they re as stressed as I am, maybe not quite as stressed as I am, but their paycheck is gonna be in the mail.
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I mean, their direct deposit cleared.
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You know, mine might not.
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It s tough.
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I mean, you have to embrace that.
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You know, I ll tell you, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
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It s like basketball players want to be rappers and rappers want to be basketball players.
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It s like, you know, it s the same thing for investment banking.
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I mean, there s a lot of friends I have in investment banking who like have this principled mid-youth crisis and want to do a startup.
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And a lot of startup guys are like, you know, why didn t I go into a stable career?
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you re going to have that no matter where you go, the grass will always be greener.
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But at least in a startup, you are doing new things all the time, which I think is a very rare thing to find.
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Yeah, that s that s the upside.
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However, they re looking for unique types of people.
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And that s what we want to get into a little bit today is one.
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Am I a fit for this to how do I how do I get my foot in the door?
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Yeah.
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So you d mentioned pre show.
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a really kind of funny, you know, the square peg analogy, but you used the word dodecahedron, which I still I googled it and I m not even sure I get it even now.
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Yeah, I think it s a 20 sided shape.
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But the point is, I mean, you know, startups are looking for a square peg to a square hole, but it s even more specific than that.
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It s like this, you know, multi sided, very confusing 3D shape.
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It s got to fit into this like perfect hole because they feel like they have a very specific need, a very specific time.
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So, you know, we re a software company that optimizes healthcare purchasing for midsize companies, right?
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We need someone who s designed that exact thing before.
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Yeah.
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Otherwise we can t make this work.
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Right.
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which is not true, right?
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I mean, chances are a talented designer or product person could figure that type of problem out, but startups have this bias to look for someone very specific.
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So when you are approaching them about a job, you have to make them believe that the specific thing that s sitting in front of them, the only thing that they understand because this is their world right now is something that you can do.
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And if they don t believe that there s a very low chance you re going to get hired.
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By the way, for those of you who are being eaten alive by dodecahedron, it s 12-sided.
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12-sided, sorry.
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Each side is a pentagon.
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But it does have 20 vertices, whatever that actually means.
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That must have been it.
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Corners-ish.
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Okay, gotcha.
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There s 20 of those.
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There s 12 sides.
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Has 30 edges.
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There we go.
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For those of you looking for a complete explanation.
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You know, I should know that.
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I m Greek, and that s a Greek cognate.
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It is.
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Greek for 12, I should know that.
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Yeah, they re looking for those types of people.
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And sometimes they, correct me where I m wrong, they re not even sure what they re looking for, but they know it s gonna be somebody who s a dodecahedron, or like a multi, what s two dodecahedrons in parallel universes maybe?
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Like, can you engineer,
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something that can interact with the body, and you have to have a medical background and an engineering background.
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Also, do you know any web design?
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Because we re lacking in that department, too.
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Yeah, and we can t seem to figure out how to make our healthcare system work, so we need you to buy healthcare.
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Right, and also, if you speak German, huge plus.
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I would take it even a step further.
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It s not that they may not know what they re doing.
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It s that they have absolutely no idea what they re doing.
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Startups, I mean, that s another way to know that it s a startup is no one knows what they re doing.
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And some of them, many of them will delude themselves into believing that they re on this straight and narrow path that has very specific inputs and outputs.
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In an environment where things are changing as fast as they are, they have no idea what they re doing.
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So therein lies the rub, right?
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In an environment of high ambiguity, a generalist or someone who can do a lot of things makes complete sense, but startups hire for very specific things.
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The reason this is important is because normal people from regular corporations can t always fit into that.
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We kind of touched on that earlier.
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why you don t look to necessarily hire those people, but a lot of times it s not that they re lesser beings for not being dodecahedrons.
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They re very good at what they re good at.
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It s just that startups need this crazy amalgamation of not only somebody who can do a bunch of different stuff, but is willing to do it for about a third of what they re actually worth.
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Hence the passion angle.
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So, let s talk about roles in startups, because I think we just confused everyone, because they go, look, I m a marketing guy.
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I should work for a startup.
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And now they go, crap, I gotta be a marketing doctor, engineer, linguist.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So, what startups are looking for at different points changes dramatically with what stage of the company they re at.
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So, when things are very early, or as it s called, a seed level, which is, seed is kind of how you describe the funding stage that the company s at.
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Typically that means they brought on, like,
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a round of capital, maybe from their family, maybe from a couple of investors, but it s a pretty small amount of money, typically under a million dollars.
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At that point, what you have, especially in Silicon Valley, is a very small number of developers and a CEO, maybe a product person or a designer, but really a very lean team.
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You re probably looking at like less than 12 people, about 10 people or less.
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Then if that company is doing well and they re scaling, they re able to raise more money in something called a series A or your first series of real financing after seed.
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It goes series A, B, C, D all the way down for every successive round of funding you take.
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After seed, you go into series A, maybe you raise another bit of money out here, $1 to $3 million is a very common range for that.
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Then the company has got a little bit of money, then they can hire actual positions.
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So you have more developers that are probably bringing on a product person if they don t already have one already, or the CEO isn t the product person, which also happens very frequently.
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They ll be hiring some designers, maybe one marketing person or social media person or copywriter to start getting things together.
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But it s still a very lean team at that point.
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SPEAKER_00
If the Series A is much bigger, like let s say they raise $5 to $10 million, they could be bringing on a lot of other people, which also happens at a Series B. So let s say we have C, then Series A, then Series B. I ve raised even more money now.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s when a company starts taking on business development people or people who manage partnerships with large companies, marketing team, sales, all kinds of other higher company functions typically happen later.
1
SPEAKER_00
So the more money the company has, the more they re willing to kind of flesh that staff out, and the more opportunities there would be for you as someone coming in.
1
SPEAKER_01
And that s why getting in early, you typically get paid in equity because they don t have any juice.
1
SPEAKER_01
They don t have any money to give you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
The later stage the company is, the more money they ve raised, the more they re able to compensate employees with actual cash as opposed to equity because they need to.
1
SPEAKER_00
Also, later employees tend to get options as opposed to actual equity grants.
1
SPEAKER_00
So it s an option to purchase equity at a very low rate.
1
SPEAKER_00
One thing to kind of mention that is really important is when you re looking at different startups, how do you know whether or not they have a high likelihood of success or not?
1
SPEAKER_00
And some of it is you just may be really passionate about the product, and that s what the startup is going to want to hear.
1
SPEAKER_00
But there s other telltale signs that a startup is likely to succeed.
1
SPEAKER_00
One is they have founders who have a successful exit or a successful company before, meaning they ve started a company, they ve raised capital for it, or they ve raised money from a venture capitalist or investors.
1
SPEAKER_00
they ve built, they ve launched the product, it did well, maybe they sold it, maybe an IPO, whatever.
1
SPEAKER_00
That past level of success is a much higher indicator that they do things positively in the future.
1
SPEAKER_00
So a lot of venture capitalists use that.
1
SPEAKER_00
The other is just really understanding the team.
1
SPEAKER_00
So at a startup, you are going to be bleeding
2
SPEAKER_02
in the trenches with people day in and day out.
2
SPEAKER_02
You ll be working very long hours, so you really have to like the team.
2
SPEAKER_02
In a corporation, like let s say I went to go work for Google or LinkedIn or Apple, if I didn t like the team I was working with, I could move to a different team inside the company.
2
SPEAKER_02
I could move around.
2
SPEAKER_02
And your house here is right next to Apple.
2
SPEAKER_02
I have friends at Apple who ve done this.
2
SPEAKER_02
But if you work at a startup, there isn t a different department for you to go to.
2
SPEAKER_02
So if you don t like the people that you re working with, and I mean really like them, it s going to be a pretty miserable job.
2
SPEAKER_02
So make sure the company has
2
SPEAKER_02
executives or founders that know what they re doing that have likely done it before or you have to believe in the product tremendously to the point where you re like a religious zealot for it to compensate for people who don t know what they re doing or you just love them to death right yeah right like family it s like mafia family family business exactly yeah
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SPEAKER_00
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All right, back to Alex Kutz.
2
SPEAKER_03
So how do we start to even look for a role if we don t?
2
SPEAKER_03
Because obviously, you don t necessarily know where you fit in if you never worked for a startup.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_02
So, I mean, there s a couple different roles that startups typically have, and we ve referenced them already.
2
SPEAKER_02
A developer is someone who s basically making code, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
a front-end web developer, some of the works with HTML, CSS, maybe a couple other front-end frameworks, JavaScript frameworks like Angular, Ember, something like that.
2
SPEAKER_02
Then there s back-end engineers as well that work with Java-based things.
2
SPEAKER_02
They ll do more back-end work.
2
SPEAKER_02
But then there s all the way over to the non-technical sides.
2
SPEAKER_02
Uh, you know, the product manager, which is a very typical entry for someone who s in a more general business role.
2
SPEAKER_02
The product manager is someone who is responsible for owning the what and the why, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
The, what we re going to build and the why we re going to build it.
2
SPEAKER_02
So somebody that understands how to look at the market and say, this is where it s moving.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is what people want.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is what we re going to build.
2
SPEAKER_02
Then managing through the process where that is designed and then giving that to the development team and helping them break it down and then making sure that it s done after they ve kind of built it.
2
SPEAKER_02
So that s kind of the business side of it.
2
SPEAKER_02
And they call product managers, many CEOs.
2
SPEAKER_02
And actually, I think only product managers refer to themselves as that, but that s basically what it is.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that s what I do or what I ve done for most of my career, product management.
2
SPEAKER_02
The other side is designers.
2
SPEAKER_02
So if you work in a software-based startup, there s people who do user experience design.
2
SPEAKER_02
So all the pretty pixels that you see when you re using Gmail on your phone or Facebook, those were designed by somebody that s a designer typically.
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, there s also, obviously, marketing people.
2
SPEAKER_02
Marketing in early-stage startups, specifically for software, tends to be more community-focused, people who are very good with Facebook or Twitter or generating or building an audience, someone who can architect a very authentic voice, typically.
2
SPEAKER_02
And this is, again, generalizations, but it s something you see quite frequently.
2
SPEAKER_03
So how do we get jobs at startups?
2
SPEAKER_03
Hence the title of the podcast.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
So there s a lot of ways.
2
SPEAKER_02
There s a lot of ways to go into it.
2
SPEAKER_02
But, you know, I ll preface this by saying something that we ve talked about before, I think, in some of the other shows, which is that the biggest lie that we ve all ever been told in our lives
2
SPEAKER_02
is that we need permission to do a job.
2
SPEAKER_02
And in one of the previous shows, I called out an example of a guy named Tristan Walker who got a job at Foursquare by effectively being just unrelenting and constantly going back and actually started doing the business development job that he wanted before the company even hired him.
2
SPEAKER_02
Started getting letters of intent of brands to advertise on Foursquare before he worked at the company.
2
SPEAKER_02
And then when he went to Foursquare and said, hey, look at these letters of intents from brands that I ve worked with.
2
SPEAKER_02
They re willing to advertise on Foursquare.
2
SPEAKER_02
Give me a job.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I do that all the time.
2
SPEAKER_02
I will write what I call love letters to founders.
2
SPEAKER_02
So companies that I really like are products that I use on a regular basis.
2
SPEAKER_02
I will write a letter saying all the things that I love about the product, and I ll just send it off to their team for no reason other than to let them know that I really like it.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it s actually just a nice thing for them to hear, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
And sometimes it generates a conversation.
2
SPEAKER_02
But another way to take that a step further is actually do the job before you get it, just like we were saying with Tristan Walker.
2
SPEAKER_02
So for product, if you want to be a product manager, do a competitive analysis of the product.
2
SPEAKER_02
So let s say there is an email application that I really like.
2
SPEAKER_02
So maybe I go into the market and I look at 15 different email applications and I become a bit of an expert on it in a pretty short period of time.
2
SPEAKER_02
You can do it in a day or less, really understand them, see what they re doing well relative to the company that you re focusing on, and then send them a deck, send them a deck saying, you know, I m a really passionate user of your product, like a 10 slide deck.
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, I love it.
2
SPEAKER_02
I use it every day.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m very passionate about the space.
2
SPEAKER_02
I ve looked at all of your major competitors.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is what I think they do really well.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is what I think you do really well.
2
SPEAKER_02
And here are some strategic opportunities for things that I think you could do better that could help your business.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m going to get a thousand slide decks.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
This month.
2
SPEAKER_02
Well, that s a good thing, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
That s free work.
2
SPEAKER_02
It is.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that s true.
2
SPEAKER_02
And as someone to myself, like I m a VP of product at a startup.
2
SPEAKER_02
If someone were to reach out to me and say, Hey, I d love to get a meeting.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s a very low likelihood that as busy as I am, I m just going to give them a meeting out of the goodness of my heart.
2
SPEAKER_02
even though I may like to help people and do favors, I just don t have the time now.
2
SPEAKER_02
But if you send me something and said, Hey, I m super passionate, and I did this work, and this is relevant to you, take a look.
2
SPEAKER_02
And if you want a meeting, great, if not, no pressure.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m going to take a meeting with that person, because I m just impressed with what they did.
2
SPEAKER_02
I don t see that very often.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I ve done that myself multiple times just because I love certain companies and it always ends up in a meeting, many times ends up in a job offer.
2
SPEAKER_02
And, you know, I teach product management here in San Francisco and I counsel all my students to do that.
2
SPEAKER_02
And the conversion rate or kind of the interest rate or email back rate or something like that is dramatically higher than anything else that I ve seen.
2
SPEAKER_03
Really, really.
2
SPEAKER_03
So this gets a massive response versus pretty much anything else that you ve any other stunts that you ve pulled per se?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, and especially in a startup, it works, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
Because there are cash and resource strapped.
2
SPEAKER_02
So somebody doing something for them that could help them out potentially is
2
SPEAKER_02
a dramatic value add in a situation in which they probably really need it.
2
SPEAKER_02
A big company like Coke may not respond as well to something like that because they have a million people doing a million things.
2
SPEAKER_03
Sure.
2
SPEAKER_03
And nobody will even know where to send your slide deck even if you did.
2
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, think about it on the flip side.
2
SPEAKER_02
Think of how rude it is of any other situation in life to go up and ask somebody for something without providing anything in return, somebody that you don t know.
2
SPEAKER_03
Right.
2
SPEAKER_02
Basically, you re asking for charity at that point.
2
SPEAKER_02
You re mining social equity to try and get a meeting.
2
SPEAKER_02
in a situation where if I provide something of value, actual value, not some trick in an email that makes me seem really important, but some actual value based on my passion, that s just such a game changer.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, of course.
2
SPEAKER_03
And most people will never spend the time to do that.
2
SPEAKER_03
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_03
They ll never do that.
2
SPEAKER_03
So that ll automatically separate you from the crowd.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yes, there is a crowd.
2
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_02
So the question is, how bad do you want it?
2
SPEAKER_02
If you want it bad enough to do some work and show them that you re passionate, enthusiastic, and smart, you will go far.
2
SPEAKER_03
Most people submit their resume online.
2
SPEAKER_03
We ve talked a little bit about that.
2
SPEAKER_03
What s the response rate in your estimation for submitting a resume online?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, so you know how I feel about this.
2
SPEAKER_02
I generally feel that submitting a resume online is the same thing as throwing it away.
2
SPEAKER_02
If I get a response back from an email from a resume I were to submit on a website, I would be shocked.
2
SPEAKER_02
I just assume that it doesn t really work.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I had a friend who worked in a very successful investment bank in New York.
2
SPEAKER_02
And they were getting something like 3,000 to 4,000 resumes a week after the financial meltdown happened.
2
SPEAKER_02
And the HR department couldn t even figure out how to go through all these resumes.
2
SPEAKER_02
So they started only looking at ones that came in on a Tuesday.
2
SPEAKER_02
They were like, you know what?
2
SPEAKER_02
We have no real way, no effective way of screening all these things.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m just going to look at ones that come in on a Tuesday.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m going to throw the rest in the garbage.
2
SPEAKER_02
But a lot of companies that get a lot of applications, like some of the fast rise
3
SPEAKER_00
startups, similar types of things happen.
3
SPEAKER_00
You would be shocked.
3
SPEAKER_00
You d like to think that every email gets care, but it doesn t.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I would say developing a personal connection, displaying value and providing something that is important and nice to have
3
SPEAKER_00
is way better than just sending an email online or putting your resume on a website.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s just not going to work.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I don t think you assume it would.
3
SPEAKER_01
I looked at a study.
3
SPEAKER_01
I can t remember who did this.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was maybe even an HR company.
3
SPEAKER_01
And 80% of jobs were found through networking and connecting with others, previously existing connections.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I ve mentioned this in
3
SPEAKER_01
other episodes of Art of Charm, and the approximate percentage of people getting jobs across every job in America, air quotes, because they obviously didn t really measure that.
3
SPEAKER_01
The online response was like sub-10%.
3
SPEAKER_01
which is insane, because that s even for staffing agencies that say, look, submit your resume online, and that s how they get resumes.
3
SPEAKER_01
They re looking for those, and it s still sub-10%.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if you extrapolate that data and you look at, all right, great, so I m in the lowest 10% most likely,
3
SPEAKER_01
And then you look, if you were to take an accurate measure of startups hiring and things like that, it s probably net zero.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like you said, it s zero.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because we re factoring in things that are completely unclear, like here s how you get a job at Chipotle.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, go to chipotle.com slash jobs and apply online.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s how a lot of people get that job.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
People also just generally, and I do a lot of user experience design, so I ve seen this in practice, but people are trying to reduce cognitive drag.
3
SPEAKER_00
Everybody in the world is trying to do this.
3
SPEAKER_00
And cognitive drag is basically the amount of mental processes it takes me to run through something to accomplish a specific task, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So a lower cognitive drag, it s an easier thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Higher cognitive drag, it s a harder thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
And in job searching and in reviewing job applications, it s the same thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
When a HR rep or somebody is looking over your resume or someone is trying to evaluate you, they are using something called trusted proxies to kind of reduce their cognitive drag for understanding who you are.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, one of those may be saying you went to an Ivy League school.
3
SPEAKER_00
Another may be working, you know, this is a company that you ve worked at before that has a great name or a great brand.
3
SPEAKER_00
It must be hard to get into.
3
SPEAKER_00
They want to see that, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
They want to see something that makes it easier for them to judge you in a world where there s so many factors, they have no idea who you are.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the way that that company did it was just say, look, reduce cognitive drag.
3
SPEAKER_01
Tuesday applicants, you re in.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, for them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely right.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can t even go through all these things.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I m just going to do the easiest thing possible.
3
SPEAKER_00
Cut everything out that doesn t come in on a Tuesday.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I think there s something there.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think you have to kind of realize that when someone else is looking at you, they re looking for ways to judge you very quickly, knowing probably what they know, not taking for credit what you say.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, so when you kind of craft that initial email by presenting value by saying, Hey, you know, I work at such and such company, I do this.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I was really passionate.
3
SPEAKER_00
We accommodated this.
3
SPEAKER_00
Those are all things that help them understand who you are.
3
SPEAKER_01
And furthermore, proving your earlier point, if you re applying for a job that has 4,000 resumes, imagine what an introduction does.
3
SPEAKER_01
They go, great, we gotta fill 10 jobs, and you know Alex, and he already works here, and says you re a fit, good.
3
SPEAKER_01
We ll look at you for this job, and now we only have nine more people to fill out of these 8,000 per day resumes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, coming through a referral is one of the best ways to do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And everybody knows this, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
But one of the reasons behind it is something called social proofing, which is this basic sociological concept that people look for validation of whether or not something is good through other people.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s five major kinds of social proof that are used.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if you Google five types of social proof, there s an article that pops up, I think, on TechCrunch that explains them.
3
SPEAKER_00
But that s a massive way to get in the door and display your value and make people understand that, OK, this is someone I can talk to, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
They re a trusted person.
3
SPEAKER_01
If we don t have a referral, how do we get these sit-down meetings with people?
3
SPEAKER_01
You use LinkedIn, we mentioned before.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do you do that?
3
SPEAKER_00
So one of the things I m a big fan of is just reaching out to random people on LinkedIn that have some type of connection to me that is a reasonable precedent for them wanting to talk to me.
3
SPEAKER_00
So for instance, let s say I work at a software development company that does X type of goods.
3
SPEAKER_00
I bet there s a million competitors that work in the space.
3
SPEAKER_00
And one thing I do when I m at companies is I will reach out to everyone that is a competitor and someone that is in my similar role at a competitive company and say, hey, my name s Alex.
3
SPEAKER_00
I do such and such at such company.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think we have a similar job.
3
SPEAKER_00
Love to get together and talk about what you work on.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think it s always good to meet cool people doing cool things in the space.
3
SPEAKER_00
Let s grab a coffee sometime.
3
SPEAKER_00
Very low pressure, very basic, but it s building my network before I make a move, before I actually want to leave.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that, for me, has ended up in job offers before because that company is looking to fill a role.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, they know someone who s done that exact job at another company, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So that s one good way to kind of grease the wheels and kind of use LinkedIn to your benefit before you even leave your company.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, the other is I started a company in civic tech, which is getting people more engaged with their government.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I started reaching out to everybody that I could possibly find.
3
SPEAKER_00
I made a list of 200 people long and found everybody on LinkedIn or found their email address through whatever means I possibly could and sent out one basic, quick, light, non-pressure, generic email saying, hey, I d love to grab coffee and talk about what you re doing.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think it s a really cool space.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ve done such and such.
3
SPEAKER_00
let s figure out works, like let s get a time.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s amazing how often people do that when I m not asking for anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like if I m like, hey, I m looking for a job, I d love to have a meeting.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s a very, it s a very high pressure request, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like, I don t know this person.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t want them to sit there and pitch me and give them their resume and me feel bad about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to do that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, the other thing is if you don t hire them, you re sitting in front of them.
3
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s weird.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s just high pressure, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like, it s like going, it s the same thing with a date.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, all this stuff is, is recurring theme in every like interaction we have with people,
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, if I m sitting in front of a girl and I m like, you know what, I think I want to get married.
3
SPEAKER_00
And like, what do you think about that?
3
SPEAKER_00
How do you feel about kids?
3
SPEAKER_00
Right on the first date?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, she s gonna run away.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, even if she s thinking about those things, it s a little aggressive.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s she has, you know, maybe pump the brakes a little bit, slow play it, establish a relationship, then figure out if there s an opportunity there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Don t assume that there is one and reach out immediately as though there is one.
3
SPEAKER_01
Excellent.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so these email guidelines generally, they re short, they re simple.
3
SPEAKER_01
How do we conduct ourselves in here?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because at the end of the day, we kind of are looking for a job a lot of the time, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, you are and you aren t, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, every first interview is an interview for both parties, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So I want to figure out if this is a company that I want to work at.
3
SPEAKER_00
They want to figure out if I m someone that would be good for the role.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I think it s always good to start off with some very basic meetings.
3
SPEAKER_00
Typically, the elements are kind of a basic greeting.
3
SPEAKER_00
Hi, my name s Alex.
3
SPEAKER_00
How are you doing?
3
SPEAKER_00
And then I display some social proof.
3
SPEAKER_00
So we talked before about reducing cognitive drag by using trusted proxies, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So I ll drop a name, a company that I work at, or a friend of mine if they know that person.
3
SPEAKER_00
All these are ways for us to kind of generate some social proofing, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So I do brief greeting, some element of social proofing, then saying, hey, you know, I m going to be around like in your area.
3
SPEAKER_00
Love to grab a coffee.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m making it as low pressure and as low noncommittal and as noncommittal as possible.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I m just displaying that I m enthusiastic.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m nice.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m interested.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And past that, just establishing a relationship can be enough.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s amazing how often people will take you up on that type of thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, you touched on a really good point there of not sending the resume.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I recommend very strongly that people don t send a resume on a first email intro, because I think it s a mistake.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like, you know, texting a girl for the first time and sending your headshot, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
No, maybe like, you know, go back and forth a little bit.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think guys wish that that would happen to them, but I think women are like, ugh, I hate when that happens.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, maybe not a head shot in this day and age.
3
SPEAKER_00
Different type of shot.
3
SPEAKER_00
Different type of shot.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
But no, I mean, I think a resume is something that should only be given when requested.
3
SPEAKER_00
Same with business cards.
3
SPEAKER_00
If I m at a networking event, I m not wallpapering the room with my business card.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m only giving it if someone specifically requests it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So resumes should basically be done the same.
3
SPEAKER_00
If I m pushing the resume, that also displays that I need you more than you need me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I need you to see this.
3
SPEAKER_00
I want you to look at this.
3
SPEAKER_00
As opposed to if you ask me, it s a much more, it s a much different power dynamic, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So you want to generate a situation where there s enough interest for them to ask you for a resume.
3
SPEAKER_00
being passionate, displaying value, displaying that social proof, maybe offering them something first, like that deck that we talked about, is a much better way to get into that.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a litmus test then, because if they ask for your contact, your resume, it shows, look, you ve succeeded up until that point most likely.
3
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Unless it s them going, yeah, yeah, yeah, send me your resume, because they re hungry and they want to leave.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I guess maybe it s not a good litmus test.
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe I should just strike that from the record.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I think if you re doing this right, they will actually ask for,
3
SPEAKER_01
what they would need to pass upward and or make the decision.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know what it is, but you re right.
3
SPEAKER_01
Whenever somebody sends me their resume in the first email, I usually just archive the email.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ll even say thank you, but I don t look at the resume.
3
SPEAKER_01
I never would look at the resume.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s no reason for me to open it.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s too much, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
And it also kind of reeks of desperation in a lot of cases.
3
SPEAKER_00
Unless there s like a very strong precedent for it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, I mean, I would say you definitely want to slow play that kind of stuff.
3
SPEAKER_00
You want to make it appear as though what you have is valuable.
3
SPEAKER_00
And quite frankly, I m not just going to give you my resume right off the bat because you have to ask me for it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
I normally don t want to throw people under the bus, but I got this email earlier today, or maybe it was yesterday.
3
SPEAKER_01
The day s a little blurred together sometimes.
3
SPEAKER_01
This person wrote,
3
SPEAKER_01
First of all, they sent the email to info at the art of charm calm not to me which I might
4
SPEAKER_01
I give my email on every show, and if I didn t, you should definitely be able to guess what it is.
4
SPEAKER_01
Everyone has it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Everybody who s been on the show has it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Everybody who s come into contact with me and knows me personally would have this and knows that they can give it away.
4
SPEAKER_01
So they wrote it to Info at the Art of Charm, and they went on to explain about how good they would be at working here and how they have expertise networking at the elite level.
4
SPEAKER_01
Bear in mind, cold email, not a referral, send to our general inbox.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s a little rough.
4
SPEAKER_01
Not quite what I expect from somebody who is used to networking at the elite level.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I m not just saying this to trash this random dude who s gonna remain nameless because I archived it instantly, but the fact is we do this a lot by sending in resumes or let me know some good times that would be great to talk about my future employment with the Art of Charm.
4
SPEAKER_01
That kind of, nothing like that ever works.
4
SPEAKER_01
This weird sort of,
4
SPEAKER_01
not walking the walk type of thing is really, really obvious, especially if you re gonna make a bold claim like, look, I m an expert UX developer, and it s like sent from my whatever, and that s like, there s spelling errors in there.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m very detail-oriented, and there s like typos in the email, they get the name wrong.
4
SPEAKER_01
That kind of thing happens all the time.
4
SPEAKER_00
But if someone reached out and they re like, you know what?
4
SPEAKER_00
Hey, Jordan, I ve been listening to your show for a long time.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m a big fan of podcasts.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I looked at, you know, 15 podcasts or 20 podcasts in your bracket, and they do this on social media.
4
SPEAKER_00
They do this over here.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think it d be really good if you do this.
4
SPEAKER_00
That kind of makes sense as a recommendation.
4
SPEAKER_00
Would that be different for you?
4
SPEAKER_01
Sure, because I would say, as long as they weren t like, let me come over to your house tomorrow night and show you how to do this, I would probably say, look, if you can detail this for me, I ll send it to our team, and I d be very thankful for that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And if they did something like that, and then a couple months later they did something similar with some other angle, and then they said, by the way, would you mind if,
4
SPEAKER_01
I showed you, look, I m a freelance such and such.
4
SPEAKER_01
Would you humor me on this?
4
SPEAKER_01
I would absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_01
Because they ve already provided value and proven that they can do something of value.
4
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, again, it s an old-fashioned notion of courtesy, quite frankly, and just understanding where the other person is coming from, being empathetic to their case, and not throwing a request at them that they re less likely to be able to deal with or want to deal with.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s just not courteous.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s just not empathetic.
4
SPEAKER_00
Be empathetic, think about what the other side needs, think about how you may be able to provide value, and then give it to them.
4
SPEAKER_00
And make sure they know who you are when you do it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
So one of the tough parts about asking for meetings, especially maybe in another city from where you live, is that you don t want to make it look too desperate.
4
SPEAKER_00
You don t want to make it look like a scary meeting for the person.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ll fly out there whenever you want.
4
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_00
You never want to say something like that.
4
SPEAKER_00
You want to decrease the emotional cost for that person taking that meeting as much as possible.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, a couple of things that I do is, you know, I ll say, okay, you know, I want to, you know, Hey, my name is Alex.
4
SPEAKER_00
So, and so, and maybe I ll start off with like that kind of value.
4
SPEAKER_00
I d like, Hey, I did this thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m really passionate user.
4
SPEAKER_00
Here you go.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I will say something like, I ll be in your area the week of X. And I used to do this all the time when I was a business development guy.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I would say, hey, I m going to be in New York late October, first week of October.
4
SPEAKER_00
Let me know if you re free for a coffee.
4
SPEAKER_00
And if they said yes, then I would book my ticket to go there.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I would always phrase it as, hey, I m going to be there.
4
SPEAKER_00
And when they said yes, I d book the ticket.
4
SPEAKER_00
If I tell them, hey, I m going to fly to New York because I d love to grab a coffee with you.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
4
SPEAKER_00
Don t book an airline ticket to have some crappy Starbucks.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Dark roast.
4
SPEAKER_00
I have a girlfriend.
4
SPEAKER_00
This is creepy.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t have time for this.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it s just it s a little too much.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I typically say, like, you want to give someone a date range that s broad.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s not too broad, because if it s too broad, it displays that you re not a demand.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like,
4
SPEAKER_00
Can you meet anytime between like, October, you know, 15th, and then like, November 35th, like, you know, 2035, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, that s, it gives someone like way too much time.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you want to be a little bit a little bit specific, but not too specific.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because if you re too specific on this side, then you know, asking someone else,
4
SPEAKER_00
to deal with the imposition of accommodating a specific time for you is a weird request.
4
SPEAKER_00
So saying like, hey, next Thursday at three o clock, are you free if I don t know you?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, that s kind of specific and a little bit weird.
4
SPEAKER_00
I d say, hey, you know, late next week, I m going to be around, you know, would you be free to grab a coffee?
4
SPEAKER_00
Love to talk.
4
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, especially if it s like, look, I m gonna be in town for, I get this occasionally, look, I m gonna be in San Jose.
4
SPEAKER_01
My friend Jeff actually just did this, and he wasn t my friend before this, really, we just kinda knew of each other.
4
SPEAKER_01
He goes, look, I m gonna be at this Brendan Bouchard event in your area, do you wanna have dinner on Thursday?
4
SPEAKER_01
or a drink on Thursday evening after it s all over, not sure on the time.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s pretty cool, because then I can just be like, I can either be free that night or not.
4
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, had he been like, are you around at 7.15 p.m.
4
SPEAKER_01
in this particular neighborhood?
4
SPEAKER_01
That s unusual.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think that there is definitely a balance between being too specific and not specific enough, because
4
SPEAKER_01
If you re too flexible, you re not in demand, like you said.
4
SPEAKER_01
If, on the other hand, you re very specific, I understand sometimes there s a reason for that, but usually what I assume when people do it, because I ve seen it a million times, is this weird false scarcity.
4
SPEAKER_01
And other terrible pitches, or I guess you can call it that, that I ve gotten are, hi, I have a great opportunity for, it almost sounds like a spam email.
4
SPEAKER_01
I have a great opportunity, I m really good at, like going back to this guy, I m really experienced at the elite networking level, but then they ll combine that, and this guy didn t do that, but they ll combine it with something like, get back to me by Friday or I m gonna go to this other company.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, go ahead, go to the other company, I don t know you, you haven t made your case for value here.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re asking me for my time, now you re gonna strong arm me to chase after you?
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t wanna operate like that.
4
SPEAKER_01
If I hire you, you re gonna treat me like that?
4
SPEAKER_01
Hell no, I don t wanna deal with that at all.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s the ridiculous part of it, is that people think because you re in a professional environment, you have to act dramatically different than you would in person.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s never something that you would do to somebody that you re friends with, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, hey Alex, do you want to hang out after our interview?
4
SPEAKER_01
And you know what, you better let me know in 15 minutes, because if you don t text back, I m going to interview somebody else.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s right, yeah, I m just going to make another friend.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m going to go on Tinder and just make friends.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m just going to right swipe all day.
4
SPEAKER_00
You re out of luck, buddy.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you wouldn t do that in real life.
4
SPEAKER_00
So, I mean, ask yourself, you know, if I m on the other side of the table and it s not in a professional context is what I m doing courteous.
4
SPEAKER_00
Does it make sense?
4
SPEAKER_00
Would I respond to it positively?
4
SPEAKER_00
If someone did it to me, you would be amazed how infrequently people put themselves in someone else s shoes.
4
SPEAKER_00
So empathy is a huge part of it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And again, I m displaying as much value as I can and decreasing the emotional cost of taking that meeting or offering that meeting as much as possible.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then that s a winning combination.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now, back to Alex Coutts.
4
SPEAKER_01
disassembled that a little bit.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, so I m from the East Coast.
4
SPEAKER_00
And in the East Coast, we re we re a miserable people from the East Coast, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, this living in New York, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
We Yeah, we have sideburns.
4
SPEAKER_00
We wear suits all the time.
4
SPEAKER_00
We look very angry when we walk on the street.
4
SPEAKER_00
We generally don t trust people.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then I moved out to California, where everybody is open and flowing with all their ideas.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I wanted to start a company that was on the East Coast before I moved to Silicon Valley.
4
SPEAKER_00
And one of my things was, never share the idea with anyone else, because they will steal it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I always had this feeling.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it took a long time to shake it.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the truth is, what I found over time is that there s no way that you can recruit people to helping you build your dreams, recruit them to get on your side, if you don t share the information with them.
4
SPEAKER_01
And also, execution.
4
SPEAKER_00
People are lazy.
4
SPEAKER_00
What are they gonna do with your idea?
4
SPEAKER_00
Tell other people they had the idea?
4
SPEAKER_00
That s it.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, Facebook wasn t the first Facebook.
4
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t matter.
4
SPEAKER_00
They just executed better than Friendster and MySpace and other crap that was out there, where MySpace became only for you know-ers, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Pedophiles and bans.
4
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right.
4
SPEAKER_00
So, I mean, one of the key takeaways there is that, you know, putting yourself out there in the ether, like putting your consciousness out, broadcasting it out there and becoming an expert or becoming a credible source on something is a lot easier than you think.
4
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, I had a friend out here who was had a very entry level job with a startup and she basically started blogging really aggressively about business development and she didn t really have any experience in it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And she really wanted to get into it.
4
SPEAKER_00
But she became this internet authority by just constantly writing on it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And a lot of the time, she was just referencing what other people said or adding her commentary to it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And she developed her voice.
4
SPEAKER_00
And as a result of that blog, it started gaining traffic over time.
4
SPEAKER_00
She got a position as one of the first business development hires at a company now worth over a billion dollars.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that was all because she kept putting her mind out there and wasn t afraid to share her points of view on things and became, really, an authority on the subject.
4
SPEAKER_00
And anybody can do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
You do not have to be a genius to do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
You can just kind of put your stuff out there.
4
SPEAKER_00
And early on when you re starting, it will be crappy, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
It will not be great value stuff.
4
SPEAKER_00
It may not be super insightful.
4
SPEAKER_00
It may not be genius.
4
SPEAKER_00
But over time, the more you see puts you in a category that s different from other people.
4
SPEAKER_00
I read 40 blogs a day.
4
SPEAKER_00
40 blogs, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Every morning I wake up and I go through them.
4
SPEAKER_00
It takes me like less than a half an hour.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I ll skim through all of them and read articles that are interesting.
5
SPEAKER_02
like my queue of things to read.
5
SPEAKER_02
But it makes me very knowledgeable about the area that I m very focused on.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s very hard to surprise me when you re talking about something that I m passionate about.
5
SPEAKER_02
Because you ve seen the predictions a mile away or made them yourself.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yep.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m participating in the community.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m out there.
5
SPEAKER_02
I mean, talking about things that you re passionate about is the best way for people to know that you have something to say, right?
5
SPEAKER_02
Talking about it is the best way for people to know you have something to say.
5
SPEAKER_01
Welcome to my entire business model.
5
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_02
quite a bit and it works, right?
5
SPEAKER_02
I mean, you re getting yourself out there.
5
SPEAKER_02
So I would say if you re passionate about an area, even if you don t work in it, start creating content, start developing opinions and get it out there.
5
SPEAKER_02
Twitter is a great place to start, Medium or Blogger or some other blogging site or Tumblr or whatever.
5
SPEAKER_02
Get your mind out there and start accumulating followers.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I have one friend who s been doing this for a very long time now.
5
SPEAKER_02
He s been writing for years.
5
SPEAKER_02
and he slowly moved into a venture capital role from coming from a startup, which is something he didn t originally intend to do.
5
SPEAKER_02
But his writing has given him deal flow, meaning startups that want to find advisors, that want to find investors, reach out to him, and he s not doing either of those things.
5
SPEAKER_02
But because he talks so much, because he has interesting things to say, people jump on the bandwagon.
5
SPEAKER_02
So I would say it s something that starts slow and it grows.
5
SPEAKER_02
And all the people that I know, every entrepreneur
5
SPEAKER_02
Everyone that has been successful in this business out here has not done it without believing that something inside them is superior to circumstance.
5
SPEAKER_02
And you have to do that.
5
SPEAKER_02
So get your stuff out there, write stuff, even if it s not good, it will get better over time and people will find you.
5
SPEAKER_01
We outline a lot of this in the social capital course that we have where we go over thought leadership.
5
SPEAKER_01
We even have, well, you do your masterclass in there.
5
SPEAKER_01
We even have other experts like Dory Clark who talk
5
SPEAKER_01
pretty specifically about this exact process, because that s what she does too, and that s what we ve, anybody who s been on there, anybody who s been on this show, essentially, aside from the random storied people that we find, have done that.
5
SPEAKER_01
They just went, so I started looking for this thing, and I realized it wasn t there, and I started to have opinions on this thing, and I started to put them on a blog, or on social media, and dot, dot, dot, people found it, and then they found themselves randomly being the expert on duck hunting in Alaska, or whatever.
5
SPEAKER_02
How is someone going to find you if you re not trying to be found?
5
SPEAKER_02
So get your stuff out there.
5
SPEAKER_02
It always makes a lot of sense.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m too hard of a worker, and I m too smart.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, so one of the questions that you get a lot of the time, and I had one interview not too long ago, a couple of years ago, or I guess a year and a half ago.
5
SPEAKER_02
They asked me, basically, give us your best professional success.
5
SPEAKER_02
What was the time when you were very successful?
5
SPEAKER_02
And I think it s actually quite nice and a humble response to say, you know what?
5
SPEAKER_02
There s a lot of things I ve done well, that did well, but I d like to talk to you about the time that I failed the most.
5
SPEAKER_02
And kind of frame it in a way that, I failed, I made this huge glaring mistake, this is where I screwed up, and I learned these things from it that I will never do again, is a much more credible way than to say, oh, I just know how to do this thing really well.
5
SPEAKER_02
So one of the examples I gave is, we built a piece of software
5
SPEAKER_02
A company I worked at years ago, the first software-based job I ever had, I was a product manager there as well.
5
SPEAKER_02
And we built this application, worked eight months on this app, and I knew the entire time no one was going to use it because it was a desktop PC downloadable application, which, unless you re in gaming, people don t really buy anymore, unless you re a very small number of companies.
5
SPEAKER_02
And it was like chock full of ads and all this horrible stuff.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I basically went along with it because I was told by my manager that it was something we needed to do.
5
SPEAKER_02
But at the end of the day, we built this product that nobody wanted.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I learned all these things that I will never do again from it.
5
SPEAKER_02
And it s created these phobias for me that I never want to release a product that I haven t validated all the underlying assumptions for before I design it and build it, which is how you get the whole lean startup methodology that s very popular out here, which is a great book to check out, Lean Startup.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ll link that in the show notes.
5
SPEAKER_02
By Eric Ries, yeah, absolutely.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s required reading if you work in startups, but that s a very humble way to go about it and say, like, I screwed up so bad, and you know what?
5
SPEAKER_02
I m never gonna do it again because it burned it into my consciousness.
5
SPEAKER_01
Excellent, so talking about failures might actually be a way to showcase strengths because you show the process, not just claiming, look, I got this on lock.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because we know that when we re hiring somebody, especially at a junior level, look,
5
SPEAKER_01
You don t do everything perfectly and you haven t always done that.
5
SPEAKER_01
And we want to know how you learned it, because if we can see how the sausage is made, we know what s inside it.
5
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I m not recommending you go into an interview and like every question they ask is, you know, what s your what s your policy on or how much vacation time you need?
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, let me tell you about a time I failed with vacation.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
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When I took too much and got fired.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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So don t don t go in and say everything in the reference or frame of a failure.
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But I think it s a very interesting thing to use sparingly at a very
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Excellent.
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Is there anything I haven t asked you that you want to make sure you deliver?
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So, another huge thing that I recommend people do, especially if you re trying to transition from one career to another, is do stuff for free.
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So, I know that s difficult.
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If you have a family and you need a full-time job and you just don t have the time to do it, that totally makes sense.
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But for people getting into startups, maybe you have the bandwidth to do it.
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Maybe you have, maybe you watch too much TV and you can fill that time with something better, you know, do things out of the goodness of your heart and good things honestly come back to you.
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I mean, these shows are great examples.
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So met Jordan.
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Jordan s a friend of mine had a show, you know, a while ago about negotiation and I teach negotiation in the city.
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And I basically just did the show because, you know, it was fun and Jordan s a nice guy and I didn t really have any expectation of return from it.
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And then as a result, later on for my classes, now they re like chock full of people wanting to learn negotiations that have heard it from the show.
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So I would say when you do things for free without always an expectation of return, really good things come back to you.
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You couldn t have planned that.
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You wouldn t have been like, look, if I show up to the Art of Charm, people who are local to me are going to sign up for my class.
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And quite frankly, at the time which I did the show, I wasn t even teaching the class yet.
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I ended up teaching it afterwards because I got all these people reaching out to me asking if I had a book or a podcast or something.
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And I was like, no, I guess I could do a class.
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And then that went into a thing where now I ve taught hundreds and hundreds of people negotiations.
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And I ve negotiated for people and become very good at it and authority on it.
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Awesome.
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It all started with doing something for free and being passionate about it.
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Basically, we made you a local celebrity.
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No big deal.
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Well, you know, I don t want to.
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My mom s watching, so yes.
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She s watching us.
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Mom, I made it.
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She s watching us talk on an audio tape.
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She s watching the slider go on her iPod 3G.
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Brilliant as usual.
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Really good stuff.
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I m waiting for the day when I ask you to do a show and you go, I got to draw the line.
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Right.
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But until that happens, thanks so much, man.
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This has been awesome.
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Absolutely.
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Anytime.
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Super interesting episode as usual, Alex is a superstar.
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I m waiting for him one day to say, look man, I ve done five podcasts, I m not coming back, but until that day happens, we re gonna keep bugging him and picking his brain because he s got a lot of good stuff in there.
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Good friend of mine, really, really sharp guy as you guys can see, and of course, if you re interested in what he has to say on any subject, I highly suggest
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Looking in the show notes, we re gonna link up some of Alex s other episodes here as well, because there s a lot of good stuff from negotiation to public speaking, aside from getting hired at a startup here.
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Show feedback and guest suggestions, this show s a fanarchy, it s run by you.
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We rely on you to help keep our finger on the pulse, so if you know someone who s a good fit for the show, let us know, guests at theartofcharm.com, and if you enjoyed this, don t forget to thank Alex on Twitter,
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as all the other resources and a couple of other episodes with Alex that we mentioned on the show.
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You can tap the album art in most mobile podcast players to see the show notes right on your phone.
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I also post a lot on Twitter that never makes it to the show, articles, insights, and other crap.
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I am at theartofcharm on Twitter.
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Bootcamp live program details, bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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Remember, we re sold out a few months in advance, so if you re thinking about it a little bit, get in touch ASAP.
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Get some info from us and plan ahead.
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Subscribe on iTunes, review us, we will love you forever.
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Helps us outrank the competition and helps us recover from some of these yahoos that write us one star reviews like,
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for virtually no reason, basically because they don t like my voice or they think the guest is lying somehow.
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I don t know who these people are, but five-star reviews help us counterbalance the crazies like that, so of course it makes us feel proud as well, and it s also the best way to support the show other than purchasing products and training from us.
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Special thanks to the Jasons for their help in production of the Art of Charm podcast.
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Go ahead and tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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Now have a great week and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.