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Welcome, everybody, back to the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest running sales training podcast in all of podcast history.
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My name is Brian Neal.
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I m Bill Kasky.
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Saw Bill away from the mic.
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Wanted to give him a little pause there to get back into the radio here.
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Good radio, glad you re here with us.
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Hey, if you re not part of the Advanced Selling Podcast Insider, I don t understand why, great meeting last Friday, Bill, yeah?
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Last Friday, we talked about the counterintuitive sales strategies.
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In fact, that s kind of a little bit of our topic today, in a way, and how we can use various different nontraditional ways to look at sales to improve our results.
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Yes.
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So be part of that.
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Best bang for your buck on the planet in terms of live.
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I m talking live, like real live sales coaching.
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Be a part of that.
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Highly recommend you do that.
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And stay in the LinkedIn group.
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Tell all your friends, go to the LinkedIn group.
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That s where the action is.
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Remember MTV Cribs?
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Remember the show MTV Cribs?
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Oh, yeah.
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Remember MTV Cribs?
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And then that was always the line.
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They went into the bedroom, right?
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That was always the line.
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This is where all the action is here.
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You know, they go into the stars bedroom.
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It s always the same line.
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I m like, okay.
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Forget MTV cribs, the bedroom, you know, it s the LinkedIn group for the advanced selling podcast.
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That s where the action is now.
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That s where it is.
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It just is.
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Speaking of interesting sayings and one-liners and product sayings, I ve taken my grandson to Krav Maga, which is a self-discipline.
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It s all self-discipline, but there s some punching, and there s how to get out of pens, how to get out of these things.
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It s interesting.
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I mean, he s just a little dude.
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But the saying that Krav Maga, because you can t tap out on the streets.
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Oh, I like that.
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I like that.
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Dang.
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And he s like, what s tap out mean, Papa?
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Well, never mind.
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You don t know.
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You can t do it.
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You can t tap out on the streets.
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All right.
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Speaking of tapping out, here we go.
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Yeah, here we go.
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I m ready.
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Do you know who this is?
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It s very faint in the background, but yes.
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Sorry, there it is.
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Do I know who that is?
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I don t know.
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It s the Carpenters.
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It s Karen Carpenter, one of the most angelic voices ever to grace the Earth.
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Karen Carpenter.
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And we were, the reason I m playing this, we were talking the other night.
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Is that in the background annoying?
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No, but your mic s a little hot now.
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Oh, it is.
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Your volume s up, yeah.
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Just a little bit.
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Doesn t bother me, but it might bother a listener.
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And we were thinking, who are some of the most angelic female artists of all time?
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You know, Whitney Houston, Barbra Streisand, Celine Dion.
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And I said my favorite was Karen Carpenter, mainly because that s who I grew up with, and she was popular.
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She and Richard.
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And some people disagree, but everybody, you can t disagree that she s got an awesome voice.
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She s pitch perfect and all that.
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And so then I, ever do this thing where you,
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You have some time to kill, and you go down this rabbit hole.
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You go down the carpenter documentary rabbit hole.
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That s a lot of there, a lot there.
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My wife s out of town, Saturday night, here I am.
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I m three docs in.
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Not three bottles in, three docs in.
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Those are the old days, yep.
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There s behind the music segment, there s an E, True Hollywood.
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And I learned more about that group than you would ever.
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Karen Carpenter.
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Yeah.
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Phenomenal, phenomenal drummer, technically phenomenal drummer, like her drumming skill level.
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If you look at like old school, like go buddy rich, like old school in the forties and fifties, she is technically a phenomenal drummer.
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Fantastic.
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People don t know that about Karen Carpenter.
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And if you don t know, just listen to a Karen Carpenter song, Close to You, or We ve Only Just Begun.
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And she had an eating disorder, anorexia nervosa, that nobody really knew much about back in the 70s and 80s.
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And so thus, she never really got help until it was too late.
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And she died at 33 years old of a heart attack due to this.
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She was taking 80 laxatives a day.
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80 laxatives a day to try to control her weight.
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It was just very sad.
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And interestingly, you bring up the drumming part.
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That s how she started her career, was singing and drumming, which is kind of hard.
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I mean, from what I understand, it s a little bit difficult.
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But they said some people believe that the worst thing they did was take her from behind the drums and put her front stage.
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Yep.
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Because she was comfortable back there with a little bit of screen from the audience.
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And now it was just her.
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And of course, they were bigger than life, 12 number one songs.
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They were raking in millions of dollars.
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And the thing is, too, and I ll stop here, is they were still doing 175 dates a year.
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175 dates a year is every other night.
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You re in a different city.
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And they did this for three or four years.
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And it s like, why?
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Why?
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Somebody was there pushing this.
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Totally.
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Totally.
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But there was no, yeah, no, no, uh, any awareness of mental health back then.
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It was mostly drugs and alcohol, soothe, all the things, and you just got caught up.
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And there is so many, it happened to so many young performers.
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So sad.
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And to be honest with you, it s still, it still happens today, not just in the performing artistry industry, but just everyday Americans who are still a statement to it.
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And yeah, I
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I know that some of the NFL players have done a nice job in trying to erase this stigma and allow people to seek help.
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And I think, I m sure it will help because these people are respected.
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But there s still a, it s terrible.
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It s terrible, the stigma involved.
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So anyway, that s my-
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I m involved in a marketing group that I ve joined here for a six-month program.
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And they have a sales component to it that on Wednesdays, people who are in the marketing program will listen to a sales expert on their staff.
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And he ll teach them how to close, how to walk people through their products.
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It s just a sale.
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It s basic sales training.
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I was on the first one last week, and I was appalled.
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at the level of manipulation that is being taught today.
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And this is a legit company.
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This is not a fly-by-night.
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These guys have been trained by large companies on how to teach people to sell.
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And it was mind-boggling to me.
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compared to what we teach on the podcast and in our practices.
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And I got real frustrated.
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And I ve got to ask myself, why did that strike you so?
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What s this about?
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Maybe this is more about you, Bill, than it is about that dude.
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So I don t know what that is.
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I just feel like that whole manipulative strategy that was founded in the 60s and 70s and 80s and kind of the Wolf of Wall Street thing,
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has seen its day and it actually damages your opportunities for sales rather than propels it.
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And I thought I d bring it up today and see what you thought.
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if I m honest.
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I agree.
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And we were very careful in our pre-show prep to talk about this because there are a lot of people that do what we do that are very, very loud in social media circles on LinkedIn, especially of dissing other approaches and other people.
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And sometimes, most of them leave the names out.
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Some don t.
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They diss other systems.
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I just don t think we re wired that way.
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Do we think we have an approach that works really well?
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Absolutely.
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Does it fit us and our personalities?
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Absolutely.
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Do we think it s the only way?
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No.
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Bill and I, if you know us personally, if you re clients of ours, you know we re not like know-it-alls.
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We gather lots of things from other places, steal it, and use it all the time.
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I always joke, all I do is pay attention really closely.
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I steal ideas and share them with others and get paid for it.
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And so I think that alone, too, to come loose there and just say, I m always looking and interested in another way to look at something or a better way to do it or something like that.
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And when people come so strong with, here s what you do, Bill, let me teach you how to reverse them.
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I m going to teach you, this is a great tactic.
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And they bleed so strong, you re kind of like, man, I think part of the bothering is that very etheric.
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That s an energy.
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It s almost like a gift of fear.
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Like, OK, my danger goes way up.
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This isn t aligned with my energy.
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Um, it s, it s more about that for me than it is about the judgment of what they re doing.
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It s more about boy, I understand, you know, that just doesn t work for me.
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I m just not a reverser.
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Um, it works for others.
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It s great.
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It s worked for years and years.
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Not my cup of tea, not my bag.
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Um, so that s, that s one.
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I don t know, just one kind of element or commentary is is I d love for all of our clients, and all of our listeners here to stay open to a better or another way to do something.
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And I think you can do that and not give up your
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And I m not talking about bounce.
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Cause a lot of people do this too.
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Well, I was in a sailor group, you know, and then I switched and then I went over to a medic, you know, and they did that for awhile.
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Then I m with the band or what, you know, it s like, no, you don t do that either.
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You have your own game.
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You think that s because now some of that s because the company endorses and buys, but some of that s because they re not getting what they are looking for too.
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Oh, that s a great question.
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That s a great point actually.
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Yes.
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I like this, but I m still searching.
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And it s not quite filled the void in my soul.
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So yeah, here s something I will name.
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Yeah, that s fine.
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We can cut it out if you don t.
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No.
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It s not really a sales thing.
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It s not like a Miller-Hyman or Challenger or anything.
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But whenever the term NLP.
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Oh, yeah.
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I always feel like, now, I think on the surface, it s neuro-linguistic programming.
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Tony Robbins and Grindr, there was a guy named Grindr who wrote a book.
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And it was basically about, you ve heard of the concept of mirroring and matching.
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And if your prospect is doing this, you do this.
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Yeah, we lean in, lean back.
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I mean, and I always feel like maybe theoretically the concepts are good, but once they move into the sales realm, they re all manipulative.
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They re all about how do I get, how do I get them to do what I want them to do?
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This is salesperson talk.
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And it s the instant he brought in LP, and he didn t even know what he was talking about, but he started talking about mirroring and matching.
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And if they say yes, you say yes.
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And if they say awesome, you say awesome.
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It s like, is that where we are?
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2022?
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All this brain, all this understanding of psychology, understanding of human nature, of our brain, limbic system, prefrontal, we understand all this stuff, and we re back to saying awesome every time the person says yes?
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Really?
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Is that where we are?
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You also, yeah.
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Go ahead.
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Go ahead.
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Well, so I thought, why don t we do a little, just dig back into our memories and come up with three or four things that we saw as manipulative when they were taught.
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Maybe they were taught to us, or maybe we just observed them.
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And then the contrarian to that, how to stop doing that and start doing something that s a little bit more resourceful.
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Yeah.
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Can I start?
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They struggle with this a little bit, but we ll see how it goes.
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I m just going to start with a, and I kind of already gave my first one away, is the buy into one system.
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We were taught to buy into one system.
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Oh, I do Sandler.
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Oh, I do medic.
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Oh, I do spin.
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I m a spin seller.
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I think limiting yourself to one and one only sales methodology is very dangerous and risky, mostly because it will strip you of your authenticity.
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Because I can guarantee you there s something in every system that is not core to who you are, guaranteed.
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And so that becomes very, very dangerous to me, because you don t become you.
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Because then you ask questions that you would never ask, but you re asking them because it s a system.
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Because it says to ask them.
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And there s no questioning of the systems ever.
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We re never stepping back from the systems going, why are we doing this?
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Here s what you do.
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Even in my refereeing business, one of my little things I learned a long time ago that served me really well is I always ask myself, what s the football logic to do when I m being taught?
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Even if I m being taught by someone that s worked four Super Bowls, I still ask the question.
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And I m not questioning authority or thinking I m better than.
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I m trying to find my own answer.
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One of my little phrases I say out there, and I ll apply it to here.
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You have to have your own game within the game.
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You have to have your own game within the game.
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So if you are a spin person, you still can find things from Bill Kasky, from the Advanced Selling Podcast, from Challenger that are more in your game.
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And you can still stay true to a core process.
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at its core.
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So that s my first one.
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The idea of going into this one way to do it is really, really dangerous.
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And you know, some of those companies like Challenger, Miller-Hyman, Spin, Sandler, they re really good at getting the senior levels to buy into their stuff.
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I was with a lady the other night.
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Well, I wasn t with her.
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I was at a party with her.
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She was in the, she s in one of those four that I just mentioned.
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Yes.
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And every person hates it.
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Every salesperson hates it, but the seniors have bought into this and they re like, no, you will do it this way.
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And you didn t ask that question.
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Why didn t you ask that?
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And it s so prescriptive that she says, we ve taken the whole soul out of the organization.
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All the soul is gone.
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And it s like, yeah, it s right.
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The soul is gone.
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Soul is what is going to connect you with another human being if you expose your soul and are soulful about it versus a manipulative tactic that takes you through.
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And I know we ve got some people who listen who are all into one of those programs.
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Just be careful.
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Just be careful.
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You may be blinded.
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You may be.
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And you could do better.
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It could be better.
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That s the that s the difference.
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What you ve got is good.
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It could be so much better.
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Yeah.
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If you let this go, that s what it s better means better for you and better for the prospects experience, and their energy and how you correct, you know, can I say one more thing about I just want to pile on your little thing.
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We said we re not going to ramp but I can t help myself.
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Those organizations where the seniors buy the whatever it is.
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So they ve endorsed, we re gonna be sailor, whoosh, and they push it down upon high.
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Then we get from the salespeople, and you and I get this oftentimes, like, oh, we hated it, no one likes it, no one really does it.
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We do it when the boss is with us, but when we re not, we don t, okay?
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Those leaders that bought that, I guarantee you, can t go through an entire sales call and hit all the marks.
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They don t know it.
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They just bought it to fix like it s an external extension of them.
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And they don t buy into it themselves.
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And you and I know that of our clients, when the CEO who buys us or our work buys in, they can do like I always said, our CEOs or enter VPs of sales, they should be able to coach just like we you and I coach, they should they should know all the things you know what I mean?
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And that s another problem, too, that I see.
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Yeah, I think a lot of these, OK, so that s one you mentioned.
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The one I had that I don t like, some manipulative technique is, and I was taught this when I was like, I don t know, 27, just get them saying yes.
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You re right.
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Just get the prospect saying yes.
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Do you like your car?
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Mm-hmm.
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Do you love your wife?
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Pick your kids.
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Do you love your kids?
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Have you ever?
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This idea of getting them to say yes implies that if I can get them to say yes enough, when I say, would you like to buy this, they re going to say yes.
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And come on, really?
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Is that what you take your prospect for?
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You think they are so shallow that they can t say no because they ve got into the habit of nodding their head instead of shaking their head?
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So that s one that.
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Get them nodding.
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Get them nodding.
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I ll give you one, and that is people buy from people they like.
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People buy from people they like.
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So if I can get you to like me, the odds of you buying from me go up.
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No, not true.
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I will like you more if you make my life better off.
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Yeah.
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If you help me in some way, if you teach me something I didn t know, if you challenge, yes, yes.
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And then, and then my argument is I like you way, way, way more than the person who I just like, yeah, he s pretty cool.
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I like Bill.
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He s funny, man.
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Good guy.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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That stuff.
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And, um, we re taught that, you know, and, and, and people say it as it s like, like true.
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Yeah, well, people buy from who they like, you know, people buy from who they like.
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I m like, do they?
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I don t know that that s accurate.
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Where s your stat on that?
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Like, I don t know that that s accurate.
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Where s my stat on that?
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But it s manipulative is the point at its core.
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My intention is I m going to get Bill to like me.
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And when we do get people to like us, you know what we do?
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Lots of agreeing.
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We never push back.
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There s never any angst or pull.
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Therefore, we get down these paths.
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We don t know how to recover from them.
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SPEAKER_00
And we can t hold things.
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SPEAKER_00
We can t hold price, opinions.
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SPEAKER_00
We can t make strong recommendations because we re being too nice because we re trying to get them to like us.
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SPEAKER_01
Because we re trying to get them to like us.
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SPEAKER_01
The whole thing, no like and trust.
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SPEAKER_01
A lot of people have talked about that.
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SPEAKER_01
The goal is to get them to no like and trust you.
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SPEAKER_01
And I don t disagree that those three things are part of that.
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SPEAKER_01
But I think know and trust are probably higher than like, because there s just too much that goes into that.
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SPEAKER_01
OK.
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SPEAKER_01
Yes.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, here s one that I heard and that I dislike.
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SPEAKER_01
And that is all the time spent on overcoming objections.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh.
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SPEAKER_01
And in this group that I was in, there was a whole lot of people who were saying that the customer raised the price objection.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t have the money, or this is too much, or whatever.
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SPEAKER_01
And all this arm wrestling about, well, when you say too much, what do you mean?
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SPEAKER_01
Or how much is too much?
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SPEAKER_01
Or, well, wait a minute.
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SPEAKER_01
You told me earlier that you wanted to grow the business $1 million, and now you re fighting me for $50 grand, or whatever.
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SPEAKER_01
And it s like, well, that.
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SPEAKER_00
All you re doing there is just creating more resistance.
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SPEAKER_00
more resistance so that then you re going to have to back up and handle more objections because they ll come up with something else.
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SPEAKER_00
You can t do that.
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SPEAKER_00
You have to handle the objections up front.
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SPEAKER_00
You ve got to figure out a way to understand what are all the objections a prospect s going to have and how do I frame my message so that some of those get knocked off so I get fewer of them so I don t have to arm wrestle them.
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SPEAKER_00
So good.
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SPEAKER_01
There s a book called the Tao of Sales, like the Buddhist Tao, T-A-O, Tao of Sales.
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SPEAKER_01
I think the author s name is Thomas Miller, I think.
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SPEAKER_01
Fact check me on that.
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SPEAKER_01
One of the chapters in there is fight resistance with non-resistance.
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SPEAKER_01
Fight resistance with non-resistance, which is a very Buddhist way to do, just to be accepting of, and don t see it as resistance, because you ll just get it fought back.
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SPEAKER_01
Right, when you swim, but it s so good.
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SPEAKER_01
Fight resistance with non-resistance.
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SPEAKER_01
But you re right, we re taught to go at, right?
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SPEAKER_01
Solve and fix, duh, duh.
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SPEAKER_01
So funny.
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SPEAKER_01
Okay, this is this just popped up this morning in a unique way.
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SPEAKER_01
So I was talking to my wife, who s also my company CEO, or like kind of joking around about some stuff business wise.
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SPEAKER_01
And I said, this is a line from Chris Voss.
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SPEAKER_01
Chris Voss is very, very popular, buzzy negotiation trainer right now in the United States and probably around the world.
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SPEAKER_01
And his little famous phrase is, have you given up on this?
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SPEAKER_01
Have you given up on this?
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SPEAKER_01
This is a way to
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SPEAKER_01
get a deal going again, right?
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SPEAKER_01
Silence.
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SPEAKER_01
I ve heard some other teachers, really loud people on LinkedIn sales coaches.
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SPEAKER_01
Here s the best thing to say.
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SPEAKER_01
Have you given up on this?
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SPEAKER_01
So I said that to her this morning.
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SPEAKER_01
She goes, that s a Sandler thing.
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SPEAKER_01
I go, no, it s not.
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SPEAKER_01
It s a Chris Voss thing.
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SPEAKER_01
She s like, no, it s in the Sandler sales funnel.
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SPEAKER_01
And I m like, huh?
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SPEAKER_01
Are you sure?
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SPEAKER_01
I m like, so here we go.
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SPEAKER_01
Who, who came up with the line?
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SPEAKER_01
Have you given up on this?
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SPEAKER_01
I m guessing it wasn t Chris Voss or David Sandler.
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SPEAKER_01
I m guessing they heard it from somewhere else.
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SPEAKER_01
So I I get sideways one when people don t give credit if you heard something from somewhere give credit I heard that from Chris Voss Steph heard it from Sam.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, whatever.
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SPEAKER_01
That s fine.
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SPEAKER_01
I didn t say it.
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SPEAKER_01
I didn t come up with it
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SPEAKER_01
So that s the first bit, is there s no brand new ideas coming out.
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SPEAKER_01
And so don t think you ve got some gem here.
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SPEAKER_01
The other thing is, once things get buzzy, this have you given up on this, once that starts to happen in the world, the world gets really wise to it.
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SPEAKER_01
And they know exactly what s going on.
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SPEAKER_01
It becomes everywhere.
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SPEAKER_00
It s ubiquitous.
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SPEAKER_00
Everybody s seeing it.
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SPEAKER_00
And then your insurance agent asks the same question your realtor did.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s like, oh, I would say somewhere in the zeitgeist, that s out there.
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SPEAKER_00
It is.
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SPEAKER_00
And so I ve got to come up with it.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
That s exactly right.
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SPEAKER_00
Right, that s what happens.
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SPEAKER_00
I ve never heard that saying as opposed to Chris Voss.
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SPEAKER_00
But you re right in that be careful about taking something that sounds like a crisp one-liner and using it and using the heck out of it because it will do more harm than good.
2
SPEAKER_00
And to be honest with you, I think manipulation screws up your karma.
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SPEAKER_00
And I have no data to back that up.
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SPEAKER_00
You were talking about they have no evidence at all.
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SPEAKER_00
But I watch people who have sold the right way all their lives.
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SPEAKER_00
They re generally happier people than those people who have manipulated their way for 30 years.
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SPEAKER_00
And I ve seen it because I m at the age where I ve seen people and I know how people have sold.
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SPEAKER_00
And there s a lot of good karma that comes with doing it the right way.
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SPEAKER_00
Truth.
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SPEAKER_00
Truth.
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SPEAKER_00
Truth.
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SPEAKER_00
Or our way.
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SPEAKER_01
Exactly right.
2
SPEAKER_00
All right.
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SPEAKER_00
So anyway, hopefully that is useful to you.
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SPEAKER_00
And if you have any examples of trainers, don t mention them by name.
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SPEAKER_00
Go to our LinkedIn page and just let us know, what are they teaching now that you re kind of appalled by or frustrated about or saying, why are we still doing that?
2
SPEAKER_00
We d love to hear that.
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SPEAKER_00
We ll maybe make a whole
2
SPEAKER_00
a series of funny things.
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe we ll get you on.
2
SPEAKER_00
Who knows?
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe we ll actually interview you on the podcast.
2
SPEAKER_01
Maybe we ll interview some of the people that say and teach the things.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
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SPEAKER_01
All right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Good stuff.
2
SPEAKER_01
All right, man.
2
SPEAKER_01
See you next time.
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SPEAKER_01
Bye.
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SPEAKER_01
Bye.