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This is The Art of Charm.
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The Art of Charm is where ordinary guys become extraordinary men.
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Welcome guys and gals to The Art of Charm.
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I m Jordan Harbinger.
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Jordan at The Art of Charm, that s me.
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Looking forward to meeting you here at AOC.
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Today we re talking with Austin Kleon, author of Steal Like an Artist, Newspaper Blackout, and Show Your Work.
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He s coming out with a nice new journal to guide you through these processes, but we wanted to talk about creativity, what it means to be original, hint, not a lot, but it s in a good way, embracing creativity, how to steal like an artist, the importance of sharing and showing your work, daily ritual, and something called productive procrastination.
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Even if you re not an artist, you ll get a lot out of this, so enjoy this one with Austin Kleon.
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So tell us what you do in one sentence.
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I m a writer who draws.
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Doesn t that make you a drawer?
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That s a good question.
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It s all marks on paper in some way.
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What I do is I make books with pictures and I make art out of words.
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And so that sounds kind of enigmatic too.
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Really what I am is just a writer and an artist, I guess.
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And ironically, has a lot of trouble telling people what he does even though you re a writer.
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Well, you know.
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Who draws.
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Yeah.
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It s always hard to tell people what you do, actually.
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I think that s almost an existential question sometimes when you re at parties and someone says, so what do you do?
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That s such a hard question for me that I actually wrote a whole book chapter about it and show your work.
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There s a chapter called Talk About Yourself at Parties and it s all about that question.
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So what do you do and how you should be able to answer it quickly and here I am failing you.
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Yeah, so maybe skip show your work or skip that chapter and show your work when you re reading That s a good point about self-help books is that I think a lot of times you know you write the book you need I mean show your work was kind of me trying to figure out what it you know the things in the books are things that I m trying to figure out like I think a lot of times people think that authors are Writing exactly what they know, but I think a lot of times authors are writing what they re trying to figure out I
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Yeah, I couldn t agree more.
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I mean, this is the show that I need which is why this is episode 450 something and counting because I need a lot of work well and figuring it out You realize you never have it figured out right?
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It s this ongoing process.
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Yeah, and if you re asking good questions you re really just gonna
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you know, end up coming up with more questions, right?
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This is 447, actually, so I was close.
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So yeah, so you ve got another, what, thousand to go?
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At least, yeah, at least.
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Hopefully.
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Yeah, God willing, inshallah, right?
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Isn t that, that s how they say that?
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Well, I mean, you know, I ve been yesterday was my 10 year blogversary.
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I ve been blogging for 10 years.
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And, you know, it was just like it was so uneventful.
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Blogversary is a word you maybe don t need to use ever.
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You know.
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It s such a nothing thing.
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Oh, my blog s 10 years old.
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Who cares?
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Yeah, people often, they ll say, hey, you ve been podcasting for how long?
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And I ll say, eight and a half years.
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And they re like, God, that s a long time.
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And well, not really.
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When it comes to podcasting, yes.
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When it comes to blogging, yes.
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But if you think about somebody who s done something for 20 years, they re still probably 10 years away from retirement.
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Usually you re at your best, I would say, at some point slightly before that, because of the level of experience.
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So eight and a half years, I m gonna look back on episodes like this and be like, God, how did anybody listen to this?
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How did anybody tolerate this?
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Look at how much of a noob I was.
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Listen to the quality of the work, you know?
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And I m sure that s a struggle you have as an artist of any kind.
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Alain de Botton put it this way.
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He was like, if you re not embarrassed by who you were last year, you re not learning anything.
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Excellent.
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Yeah, I love that.
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I love that.
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I can t I couldn t agree more I listen to a lot of things that I do by accident usually or someone will say hey, you know episode 330 was so good and one day I ll be listening to something or I ll check out what they were mentioning I m like, ugh, you know, but it s so much better than 238 and 138 is unlistenable and anything below that is just you know, I can t even do it without cringing Yeah, and I think a lot of people are like that
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Oh, I mean, you know, I gave a talk a few days ago and, you know, it went fine as far as talks go.
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But I think the things that kind of make me cringe, that s what, you know, you have to work on.
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You know, the cringe factor is really helpful when you look at your past work and you think, oh, that was really.
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That s when you know, you know, that s what you got to work on next.
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You know, so I think it s biological.
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I almost think it s like an evolutionary thing.
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You know, that thing that makes you cringe.
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That s what, you know, you got to work on.
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Yeah, probably a little bit of a gut level sign.
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I would imagine you talk a lot about creativity.
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It s a really interesting subject because it s one.
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It s totally vague, right?
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What is creativity?
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How do we do more of it?
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And everyone s a critic when it comes to art in general, but especially when it comes to creativity and one of the worst things you can hear.
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as an artist or anybody who creates anything just to take the pretentiousness out of the word artist or anybody who creates anything.
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One of the worst things you can hear from a critic or a fake critic usually is, oh, there s not an original.
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This isn t original.
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This is just a hack or this is something unoriginal or you re unoriginal.
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I mean, any variation thereof is you only say that when you want to get under their skin.
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And you talk a lot about this because your argument, correct me where I m wrong, is that, hey, man, nothing s original.
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And as my law professor, property law professor said in law school, he says, if you have an original idea, there s a good chance that it s not original, or it s complete crap.
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Yeah, and when you do see something that you think is original, a lot of times, nine out of 10 times, you just don t know where it came from, and you don t know the sources, and it s undetected plagiarism.
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I think a couple of things, art is one thing, and that s one specific thing,
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Creativity is so mythologized and it s so mystified, but really for me, creativity is just a tool.
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It s just something that we all have access to.
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And for me, my definition of creativity is just taking what s in front of you and everybody else and just rearranging it into a new solution or solving a problem with it.
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So my friend Mike gives the great example of he s like,
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You know in Apollo 13, where they have to make that air filter, and they only have so much time, and they have all these things on the ship, but they have to make an air filter out of all this junk, right?
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That s creativity.
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That was his definition of creativity, and I really can t expand on that that much.
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It s just taking what s available to you and rearranging it or making it into some sort of solution.
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You know and that can be different of course there s creativity and art but sometimes there s not I mean you can do you can do art with you know sometimes you don t have to even use creativity for art you know there s a there s a guy named Kenny Goldsmith and he teaches a course called uncreative writing
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which he talks about, you know, copying stuff off the internet and, you know, doing all this weird remix kind of cut up poetry.
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And, you know, some of my work even is just taking lines out in the newspaper, you know, so all these things are different.
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But I think this kind of this emphasis on originality that we have in this culture, I think it, you know, I think it does a bunch of things.
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But the biggest thing I think it does for people who are starting out is it paralyzes them.
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That idea that, oh, I have to come up with something completely original.
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It makes us do all kinds of crazy things.
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I ve heard people say, well, I don t want to read anything right now because I m writing, and I don t want to be influenced.
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It s stuff like that.
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God forbid you should have a good idea from somebody who s spent years thinking about it.
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Yeah, and then you look at the people in our culture who are doing
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amazing work and you know very few of them are actually come up with these ideas out of nowhere I mean and it s true in any any form I mean you ve got someone like Kobe Bryant who talks about his basketball moves and like the way that he learned was he sat in front of the
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you know, VCR and he memorized these moves and then he went on the court and he tried them out.
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And the thing is, is he didn t have the same body type as some of the guys that he was copying from.
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So he had to kind of, you know, transform the move into something of his own.
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You ve got someone like,
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You know Tarantino who s like one of our greatest filmmakers and pretty much all of his movies are just each scenes like a homage to another movie But then it makes this whole that s Tarantino, right?
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So there s like so many of these people in our culture that are influencing us and giving us all this great work They go out and say it, you know, they re like, I m a shameless thief I steal from everything and everyone and then I turn it into something of my own and
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Yeah, I can t even hide it, nor do I need to tell anyone because I m sitting here talking with smart people.
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It s not like they re not there, right?
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So it s really easy for me to get away with this because I play the role of host.
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But I think other people are afraid to do something similar where the originating party, if you will, is not there because they feel like it makes them derivative and that becomes an insult.
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I mean, you know, I just got done reading Judd Apatow s book sick in my head Which I think you might like because it s interviews with famous comedians The way Judd Apatow the you know, the famous comedy director, you know He wrote and directed knocked up and the 40 year old virgin and now he s like a mentor to like Lena Dunham and all those
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You know the new generation, but you know judd apatow got his start as a teenager.
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He pretended to be a journalist and he called up all these comedians Like he d get their publicist or something say hey i m judd apatow at knlv, you know, whatever radio station in new york I want to interview jay leno
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And Jay Leno s publicist would say, okay, well, he s gonna be in town at this time or whatever.
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And Judd Apatow would show up at his hotel room and he d be 15.
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And Jay Leno would be like, who are you?
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And he d say, I m Judd Apatow.
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And then Jay Leno and his publicist would realize, hey, this is just a kid coming to interview us.
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But most of the people that he had the balls to ask for an interview actually gave him an interview.
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And so that was the genesis of this book.
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That s how judd apatow learned how to do comedy.
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He actually when he was that young said I want to be part of this tribe How do I do it?
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Well, I know what i ll do i ll just interview all these guys and ask them how they do it So, you know, he talked to jay leno.
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He talked to jerry seinfeld You know, he talked to all these up-and-coming comedians and then lo and behold You know, he becomes one of them
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And I think that s such a beautiful story of when you re trying to start out and you re trying to join this world, the first thing to do is to shine a light on the people who are doing it well.
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That s brilliant, of course, and how do you do this in a way that s quote unquote fair?
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How do you do it in a way that isn t just
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hacking other people s crap together, like you have a Google Alert set up for your name, and it s like Times of India, and you re like, I wrote this article for my own website, and now it s on this other website.
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How do we do it in a way that s fair, that makes sense, that s actually legitimate?
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What s your definition thereof?
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Because I would imagine it can be kind of a slippery slope, where you re like, oh, well, I ll steal like an artist, all right, I m just gonna copy other people s crap and put it into a book and sell it.
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Well, you know, so right now we re having a conversation and we re both mutually benefiting from this conversation like you, you know, you re getting a new guest and you re doing a new show and I m getting to talk to you and to access to all your listeners, right?
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So we have like a kind of mutually beneficial thing going on here.
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Now, when it comes to making your own work, I really think it s all about the transformation.
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It s all about, are you taking other people s ideas and are you doing something new with them?
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Are you rearranging them in some way that adds value to them, that adds value in the wider culture?
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So if you re scraping someone s article and reposting it on your blog without credit, that s crappy stealing, right?
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But if you re taking their article that they wrote and you re adding your own two cents and then you re adding
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you know, half-dozen other voices that you ve cobbled together into a new piece, then that is something new, right?
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And when you talk about these kind of issues, there are a lot of people who are kind of anti-copyright or, you know, anti-intellectual property.
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Although I have problems with some of our intellectual property laws, I mean, I m someone who makes a living off of copyright.
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I mean, my books are copyrighted and that s how I can make money off of them.
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And I actually think that a lot of our laws are actually pretty well designed and this A lot of times people are really shocked that I talk this way because you re mr. Steele, man Shouldn t you be like anti-copyright or whatever, but i m like well actually
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there s this thing called fair use, which is a very tricky waters to swim in.
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And it s a hard defense to make in court.
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But if you look at some of the guidelines of fair use that are on line, you ll actually find that the more you kind of stay within
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you know, reasonable, fair use, the better it actually makes the work.
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So let s take something very concrete, like my newspaper blackout poems.
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So for anyone who hasn t seen these for your listeners, what I do is I take an article from the newspaper, I put a box around a few of the words until it makes kind of a funny phrase or, you know, a little mini haiku almost, and then I black out the rest of the article.
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So it almost looks like if the CIA did a haiku.
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You know, it s so so like these poems i ve actually I did a piece for the new york times They actually asked me to write about fairy hughes Seeing as they re the newspaper that actually, you know make my poems out of and I took each of the kind of things in fair use and talked about how each Idea almost makes the work better.
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So for example what i m doing with the poems is
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I m transforming a piece of journalism into a piece of poetry.
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So right there in that transformation, I m not like taking any kind of like intellectual or financial thing away from them.
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I m just making this new thing.
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So there s a transformation there.
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There s also a thing in fair use about how much you take from the thing you re stealing from.
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So it s like, I only take maybe, you know, 15, 20 words out of a 500 word article, you know?
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And so there are all those principles, those kind of transforming principles, and the thing is, is I think that the more you kind of stick to those principles, the better it actually makes the work.
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So, to sort of recap that for people writing on their hand or driving,
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It s hopefully not doing both.
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It matters primarily, or at least first thing you should think of is does this benefit both parties, right?
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Like if I m taking something from you and I m reading it on my show, do I then say, this brilliant piece by Austin Klean is so good, I wanted to share it on the show, or do I just say, look at this amazing thing I just thought of that I m not giving you credit for?
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Exactly.
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So, you know, you say, I read this, you know, I read this great thing in this book by Austin Kleon, and go from there.
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And at the bottom line, too, is that, you know, you re not actually taking anything from the party as in, you know, the New York Times is not losing any business, because I m making poems out of their newspaper, if anything,
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I m giving value to their newspaper because I m having people actually think about the paper as something that you interact with and something that you, you know, that you actually, you know, open up and look at and can make things out of.
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And there s actually been some newspapers who have
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Actually run their own newspaper blackout poetry contest because they realize hey if we run this contest people have to buy A newspaper to make a blackout poem out of it, you know, yeah I think for me it s just kind of a ethical gut check of like And a lot of times I think okay if I was in a stuck elevator with the person i m stealing from
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What would they do?
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Would they give me a little pat on the shoulder and say, hey man, you know, I saw that, that was a really good way you took that and ran with it.
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Or would they punch you in the face?
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You know?
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The elevator test.
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The elevator test, you know, it s like if you were locked in an elevator with the person you re stealing from, would they, you know, give you a thumbs up or would they give you a punch in the face?
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You know, and I think that s actually a pretty good barometer for me.
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Yeah, it s great because I think a lot of people who do actually steal, steal, they just think, I m never going to have to pay the consequences for this.
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Usually the people who are so worried about stealing, usually they re not worried about the other party.
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Usually they re worried about people s perception of themselves, or at least that s what it seems like to me.
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What do you think?
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Yeah, I mean, you know, it can get pathological.
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I mean, there s something really strange that happens with, you know, plagiarists.
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I don t know.
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It s just it s a kind of weird thing that goes on in people s heads that who are, you know, kind of the one thing you ll find is that when you find someone has plagiarized something, it s rarely the only instance.
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You know, how many times has someone been kind of caught for plagiarism, and they go back and they realize, oh my gosh, he plagiarized everything.
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You know, every book s got something in it, you know?
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And so there s this kind of weird pathology to a lot of plagiarists, but I think, you know, there s always the flip side of, you ll always get these young writers who are like, well, I wanna put my stuff out there, but I m afraid people will steal it.
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Right now and Cory Doctorow has a really great way of dealing with that question.
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He says you know your your problem is not piracy Your problem is obscurity like you wish you were good enough that someone wanted to steal your ideas and
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Now back to Austin Kleon.
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Usually I ll tell you this people rear parts of our charm or they ask or they ask if they can transcribe and turn it into a blog post I m almost surprised by that.
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The answer is of course use it, you know Yeah, put it in there with a link back I wish everybody and you know, it s hundreds of people did that and we would be we d be having this conversation on my jet You know
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Well, Howard Aiken, he said, don t worry about people stealing your ideas.
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If your ideas are really any good, you ll have to shove them down people s throats.
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That goes back to your law professors.
2
SPEAKER_03
If you really have an original idea, it might be so far out that no one even wants it.
2
SPEAKER_02
Exactly, yeah, no kidding.
2
SPEAKER_02
Well, why is it important to share your work anyway?
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, if you re an artist, why not have that sort of limited mindset that we were just sort of
2
SPEAKER_02
pissing on before, I know there s a better word for that, I m just trying to play it, but of sharing and not wanting your ideas to be taken.
2
SPEAKER_02
I understand that most people who don t want their ideas to be taken, like you said, are crap.
2
SPEAKER_02
However, what about some folks that really don t?
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, there s a lot of musicians and things like that that go back and forth accusing each other of doing that.
2
SPEAKER_02
Notice it s never the people that do it blatantly like hip hop artists that really use mashups, which everybody loves anyway.
2
SPEAKER_02
But why is it so important to share?
2
SPEAKER_03
Well, I think that sharing is really how people grow and develop.
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, being a part of a group of people who are sharing ideas and copying from each other and stealing from each other, I mean, that s how some of our greatest art, you know, kind of came about.
2
SPEAKER_03
There s an idea, we think of creativity as being the domain of the lone genius, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
This like super humanly talented, gifted person.
2
SPEAKER_03
But there s kind of a flip side of that, and it s something that the musician Brian Eno calls scenious.
2
SPEAKER_03
And what scenious is, is it s the communal form of genius.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s actually a whole network of people, a scene in which these special geniuses kind of work on their craft and come up with their ideas, and they kind of rise out of it.
2
SPEAKER_03
Like a great example
2
SPEAKER_03
is, you know, since we were talking about music before, someone like Bob Dylan.
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, Bob Dylan starts out, he s just this kid from Hibbing, Minnesota, and he travels around a little bit, and he ends up in the very rich folk scene of Greenwich Village, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
And he learns, you know, all kinds of songs off of these other folk singers, and he s running into all these different kinds of people.
2
SPEAKER_03
And the whole scene at the time, Dave Van Ronk, who
2
SPEAKER_03
You know, they made the Coen brothers made that movie kind of based on his life about the folk singer Llewellyn Davis.
2
SPEAKER_03
That movie was kind of based on Dave Van Rock and Dave Van Rock said, you know, we were all stealing from each other.
2
SPEAKER_03
Everybody was lifting, you know, arrangements and all these old songs off each other.
2
SPEAKER_03
Dylan just happened to be the most successful at it.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so there really wasn t any animosity towards Dylan until he became successful, you know, because we were all lifting from each other.
2
SPEAKER_03
We were all part of this stew.
2
SPEAKER_03
But Dylan always had his eye on something else.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so these seniors is the idea of a senior.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s really how you find your voice is by being in this kind of rich stew of other voices and kind of
2
SPEAKER_03
You know taking and pushing things back and forth, and you know one of the things I write about and show your work is The way to join a scene yes to get to your original question is to share your stuff to share your ideas to share You know the albums you re listening to share chords.
2
SPEAKER_03
You know share songs that you ve learned You know that is how you become a valuable part of one of these networks And then the network pays you back by making you a member and everyone else is sharing their own stuff
2
SPEAKER_03
Jason you built the website for that movie, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
Oh Wow, yeah, so, you know the reason I think seniors that s pre-internet Brian, you know coined that term seniors.
2
SPEAKER_03
I think we re living in this Massive seniors right now, which is the Internet, you know, the Internet kind of runs on
2
SPEAKER_03
Again, not necessarily how original you are, but what are you sharing?
2
SPEAKER_03
You take someone like my friend Maria Popova, who runs Brain Pickings.
2
SPEAKER_03
She s a blogger, and what she does is she shares mostly what she reads.
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, and she calls herself a curator, but I see her as just, she s just a blogger.
2
SPEAKER_03
She s a sharer of ideas.
2
SPEAKER_03
But what she does that s so valuable for everyone
2
SPEAKER_03
she s created this gigantic repository of stuff that she s read and come across, and she s become a very valuable part of this kind of online senius and this whole, like, she s built this whole little empire up just from sharing, you know?
2
SPEAKER_03
And that s the kind of world that we re living in right now, is that the people who share, the people who are open about their work, they kind of build something, you know?
2
SPEAKER_03
And the ones that are at home,
2
SPEAKER_03
kind of keeping everything to themselves, they get left out.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, not only creating yourself but also sharing to give back to others because otherwise the whole system sort of breaks down.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, and in creating yourself is so much a matter of your context and who you re bumping up against and you know The ideas that you re you know that that cultural stew That you happen to be in I mean, you know when we look at these great figures from the past it s very easy to think about them as just
2
SPEAKER_03
Arriving fully formed, you know, the the great example in the music has always been like jimmy hendrix, you know, like oh, well, here s this alien sent to earth that was just like
3
SPEAKER_00
Magically was this alien right, but you know you start reading about Jimi Hendrix, and there s no doubt that he was amazingly talented But you know here s a guy like Cut his chops on the chitlin circuit and like played with some of the great players and like you know the Isley brothers And like he was in this stew you know he s hanging out with all these great musicians There was a context for Jimi Hendrix.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know I mean, and there s a context for everyone and
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, even someone like Da Vinci, who, you know, he s probably the closest to a genius that we have.
3
SPEAKER_00
He s still existing in that era in which he could actually, you know, get some capital from these things that he was doing.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, I mean, if Da Vinci had been born 200 years before, you might not have heard about him.
3
SPEAKER_00
Everyone comes from a context and everyone comes from a culture, you know, so much of what we become is based on who we re surrounded by.
3
SPEAKER_01
So now we re talking about embracing influence and thinking of yourself essentially as a mashup of what you let into your life.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re curating ourselves by letting things through consciously or subconsciously as well.
3
SPEAKER_00
This idea is, my mother used to drive me nuts because she would always say, garbage in and garbage out.
3
SPEAKER_00
But now that I m older, I realize that what she was talking about is true.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you re only surrounded by garbage,
3
SPEAKER_00
it s going to be hard to process that garbage into anything interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so you really want to surround yourself with the best stuff that you can.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s an idea in economics where if you take someone, if you average the five incomes of the five closest people that someone is around, you usually have a pretty good approximation of what that person s income would be.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think the same is true of your idea incomes, basically.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re basically, the 10 people you re the closest to, you re almost like an average of their brain capacity.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so life becomes a lot about making sure you re surrounding yourself with the right influences.
3
SPEAKER_00
Making sure that garbage doesn t go in so garbage doesn t come out.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, later on, once you kind of find your voice and you ve kind of found your work, then you can start kind of processing garbage.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, then you can start like kind of dumpster diving and finding stuff that the culture is kind of discarded or not looking at anymore.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you can kind of pick it up and use it in your work, you know.
3
SPEAKER_00
But when you re first starting out, like you really want to surround yourself with the best.
3
SPEAKER_00
I always say, you know, if you re ever the smartest person in the room, you need to find another room.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, of course.
3
SPEAKER_00
Where is that from?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, any any quote that you don t know who it s from, you can just say it s Mark Twain and everyone will believe you.
3
SPEAKER_00
So Abraham Lincoln.
3
SPEAKER_00
The way I write about and feel like an artist is, you know, this is someone who Judd Apatow actually interviews in his book, Harold Ramis, you know, the the Ghostbuster and the Second City.
3
SPEAKER_00
graduate and the director of like Groundhog Day and Caddyshack, you know, Harold Ramis said that, you know, find the most talented person in the room and stand next to them and see if you can be helpful to them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because in his story, the most talented person in the room was Bill Murray.
3
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, he found him and latched on to him and helped him.
3
SPEAKER_00
And they made those brilliant movies, you know.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that idea of like, you know, narrowing in on those people that are shining and trying to be helpful to them and then, you know, trying to glean what you can, that s so important.
3
SPEAKER_01
And speaking of the sharing part, or going back to the sharing part anyway, do you share in specific ways?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because it s easy to overlook that and go, yeah, everybody share, and then people go, okay, I put my work on, it s like the e-commerce equivalent of, I put up a website, now customers will come, and it doesn t work like that, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
You can t just put your song up somewhere on SoundCloud and then hope people find it, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
You gotta work at that too.
3
SPEAKER_00
Sharing to me is an act of generosity.
3
SPEAKER_00
When you share something, you re thinking about the person on the other end.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so there s a little flowchart in Show Your Work that I drew where it s like, you know, you start out with that question, should I share this?
3
SPEAKER_00
And the next question becomes, is it interesting or is it helpful?
3
SPEAKER_00
And sometimes it s hard, especially if you re delusional, as so many people seem to be.
3
SPEAKER_00
But it s hard to tell what could be useful or helpful to others.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I always think that that s a great filter for when you re going to share.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like, will this be helpful or interesting to someone?
3
SPEAKER_00
And if you can really be real about those questions, then it becomes very easy to know what you should and shouldn t share.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think that there s kind of this spectrum of sharing where if you don t share anything, you re like a lurker, or you re just a ghost almost.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then if you overshare, you re basically human spam.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you know you re these people that you know are just constantly telling you about their breakfast and their Life and all this stuff that you could care less about and then you know there s a sweet spot in between there Which I think is a contributor.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s someone who both
3
SPEAKER_00
you know, add something to the world and then takes, you know, there s a given take to the transaction.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s kind of the sweet spot, someone who is not only putting their stuff out into the world, but they re also, you know, taking stuff in and shining a light on it, you know,
3
SPEAKER_00
The literary world is a very easy thing to pick on in this context.
3
SPEAKER_00
There are all these young writers who want to be published, and so they send out these terrible poems or short stories off to these literary journals that they never read.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so there s this whole system of people trying to get published in magazines that they don t even read.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know yeah, and to me that is that s a surefire way towards failure if you want to have fans You have to be a fan yourself, and I think about again someone like Quentin Tarantino is a perfect example Here s a guy who loves movies
3
SPEAKER_00
And so he makes movies with the same love that he has for watching them, and he makes them almost as a fan.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s why it s easy to be a fan of Tarantino, because he s a fan himself.
3
SPEAKER_01
All right, back to Austin Kleon.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s an interesting concept, because I don t listen to a lot of podcasts, but Jason listens to a ton, and I m kinda hoping that secretly balances him out, or balances me out, I should say.
3
SPEAKER_01
But it s true, because when we do listen to shows, or when he does, or when I eventually do, I m like, oh, this is such a cool concept of making your ads like a conversation instead of an ad, or this is a really cool concept of,
3
SPEAKER_01
taking a funny part of the show and putting it in the beginning to get people in there.
3
SPEAKER_01
How did I not think of that?
3
SPEAKER_01
And then, yeah, making it kind of our own.
3
SPEAKER_01
You can t do it well if you re not taking in any influence from people that are also good at it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think there is a line, though, to go with your mom s traditional wisdom.
3
SPEAKER_01
You could listen to a bunch of really bad ones and then fall into the trap of going, mine s way better than this, I m doing fine.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah, or emulate their bad patterns.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s even worse.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think that, you know, what you said is interesting to me because it s not like I sit around and read a lot of self-help books, you know, even though I write in that genre.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s why this is such a terrible episode.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because you don t know what you re talking about.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
But you know, I think what I do love is I love books and I love the world of books.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so my books are full of other books.
3
SPEAKER_00
They just don t happen to be from the genre that I write in.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think if there s anything interesting or original about them, it s because of that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now what about your creative process?
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you have a system for it or are you just kind of naturally, I must write or draw or whatever today and then you like retreat to your castle tower and do it?
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you have a daily ritual that you recommend for other people?
3
SPEAKER_01
I feel like a lot of creative folks now have systems in place to make it happen.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh God, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s way easier to not work than it is to work.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m a big fan of Jerry Seinfeld.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, Seinfeld s just, he wakes up and he writes for two hours every day.
3
SPEAKER_00
He does it every day.
3
SPEAKER_00
And every day when he, there s that great kind of life hacker classic Jerry Seinfeld calendar thing that goes around that Seinfeld himself doesn t really,
3
SPEAKER_00
Care about but you know there s a thing going around with his name on it that you know at the end of your day s work you make an X on the calendar right and then your job just becomes to keep making X s in the calendar and keep that chain going and
4
SPEAKER_01
And so that idea that you work every day and that kind of daily practice I think is super important to me and I think it s the thing that I recommend the most to people who want to get started is like you have to make the time every day to practice.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, the book that really inspires me is a book called Daily Rituals by this guy named Mason Curry.
4
SPEAKER_01
And what Mason did is he just kind of collected the daily routines of all these famous, you know, artists and scientists and different thinkers and doers.
4
SPEAKER_01
And what he came up with is not that there is any kind of one-size-fits-all routine, but you do see a lot of times that the people who are really productive have some sort of daily routine or ritual that they go through.
4
SPEAKER_01
I like the John Waters approach, who is also someone who writes every day.
4
SPEAKER_01
He says, I make things up in the morning and I sell them in the afternoon.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so that s kind of what I try to do.
4
SPEAKER_01
I try to do all the, all the real creative stuff like writing or making a poem or, you know, putting, drawing or putting things together.
4
SPEAKER_01
I try to do that in the morning when I m fresh.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then the afternoons for admin stuff like Photoshopping or printing or talking on the phone or doing a podcast or answering emails, stuff like that.
4
SPEAKER_00
What do you do when you don t feel creative or when you just aren t feeling it?
4
SPEAKER_00
Do you push through it or do you go, ugh, okay, tomorrow?
4
SPEAKER_01
I walk away.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, when I m really not feeling it, I just go read because if you can t write,
4
SPEAKER_01
If you turn around and you go read for a bit, it s funny how reading really makes you want to write.
4
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes when I m really out of ideas, I just pretend like I m in art class and it s like fourth grade.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I just make like a collage or something, you know, just pick up the paper and just cut words out and cut, you know, pretend like I m a 15 year old girl with her trapper keeper notebook.
4
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, I ll just like paste, cut and paste pictures and words and stuff and, and just kind of get, you know, just get my hands moving because there s something about when you do stuff and make stuff with your hands, it kind of gets your brain working again.
4
SPEAKER_01
Gave a talk a few days ago.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m giving a talk right now.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s called the analog desk and what I have in my studio is I have a digital desk and I have an analog desk and What the digital desk is is it s like everyone else s desk you know it s got the computer and the scanner and the phone and all the digital stuff on there and And then I have another desk in the office.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s only paper and pens and you know scissors and tape and
4
SPEAKER_01
nothing electronics allowed on that desk and so The analog desk is where I go when I need to get new ideas basically I go work over there for a set amount of time and then when I do have the ideas I ll go back over to the computer.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ll start you know
4
SPEAKER_01
Really typing them out or editing them and stuff like that, but I anyway I gave this talk called the analog desk That s about how to set up your own analog desk Which is it s very it s a simple talk, but you know my point is is that you if you make an analog space?
4
SPEAKER_01
Where you can t be distracted?
4
SPEAKER_01
It s easier to use your hands and to come up with good ideas and a guy who was writing in the local paper You know he sort of said you know I?
4
SPEAKER_01
oh yeah we re supposed to like sit around like we re in fourth grade and play with you know scissors and tape you know and i said yeah that s exactly it actually you can be as uh jaded as you want to about it but the point is is like a lot of the great artists and thinkers
4
SPEAKER_01
That s what they do.
4
SPEAKER_01
They use their hands.
4
SPEAKER_01
They sit around and they play and they waste time and they stare at the wall.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s where the good stuff happens, you know, and so many of us don t give ourselves the time to just zone out and to make stuff and play.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s where the ideas come from.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s really easy to fall into, well I have to do all this other stuff and then you get burned out.
4
SPEAKER_00
I actually schedule shows on certain days at specific times because if I sit there and do email and then I do a bunch of calls and I m doing a bunch of other meetings and stuff and then I gotta do a show, it s like, meh.
4
SPEAKER_00
All right, let s just get through this and then it s you look you got your priorities backwards because the show is what runs the business so if I m half-assing that so I can get to Tax, you know accountant meetings and I m doing it wrong.
4
SPEAKER_00
We re not gonna be very long
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean you have to know what is the most important And I think you know I m tweaking that talk because like I said you know we were talking earlier about being Disgusted by your previous self, and I m disgusted by me two days ago that I gave this talk that didn t have the perfect structure You know so now I m thinking about how I m reorganizing that talk but for me the problem has become that the tools that we use to do our work are
4
SPEAKER_01
Also our communication tools and their tools that can interrupt us so for me the problem with the computer isn t Necessarily even the delete key or the keyboard or the mouse even though I do think there are problems with being able to immediately delete things and edit things but
4
SPEAKER_01
You know the problem for me with the computer is that the computer can interrupt you like there s always some email There s always something to look at you know It s it s really that it s connected, and I think that what you need is you need that disconnected time that time focused on actually Doing work, and so I think that s what for me the analog desk is like the stupid human trick or the life hack of like tricking myself into actually making something and
4
SPEAKER_01
Instead of just going on twitter, you know, because I just that s the other thing I don t have a lot of willpower if i m in front of the computer So easy to just go on twitter, you know and not write.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah Or write on twitter because writing on twitter feels like writing, you know, and I go lenient on twitter sometimes because sometimes Sometimes a tweet will turn into a blog post and a blog post will turn into a book chapter and so
4
SPEAKER_01
I try to temper that anti-computer talk too much, because there has been stuff in my own life that has started on the computer, of course, and been helpful, but I do think that a vast majority of the really good stuff, when I m really pushing myself and I m really coming up with those good ideas, it happens in that disconnected space, that kind of meditative, non-distracted mode, where I m really in the zone.
4
SPEAKER_00
What about focus?
4
SPEAKER_00
Do you focus on one thing at a time, or do you recommend some sort of balance?
4
SPEAKER_01
My favorite thing to do is to practice productive procrastination.
4
SPEAKER_01
And what I mean by that is I like to have two or more projects going at the same time, and I use them to procrastinate on the other.
4
SPEAKER_01
So when I get sick of project one,
4
SPEAKER_01
Jump over to project two because it s new and fresh and exciting And I work on that until I get sick of it, and then I jump back over to project one You know and then that s fresh and new and I can see what I was doing wrong and in that way.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m productive But I m also procrastinating so that s just kind of another like stupid human trick that I do to like
4
SPEAKER_01
Make sure that I m doing work right you know if you switch between projects real quick you trick yourself into thinking It s novel, but then you know the other thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think happens with that is Problems you figure out on one project Help you in the other project So sometimes the projects will talk to each other and you ll figure out a solution in one project that you can t use but would work for the other project That makes sense
4
SPEAKER_00
It does, yeah, so instead of going, alright, I m stuck, I m gonna go play Xbox, you go, I m stuck, I m gonna write something else, or I m gonna draw something, which you re already doing anyway, right, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, I m sick of working on this talk, I m gonna go make a poem.
4
SPEAKER_01
Whereas if I was only in the business of making poems, poems would feel like work.
4
SPEAKER_01
But compared to writing a talk, making a poem is like fun.
4
SPEAKER_01
If I m writing a book, writing a talk might seem really fun.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
But it s all stuff I have to get done.
4
SPEAKER_00
Speaking of the process, tell us before we wrap about your new notebook, your journal, your new product, for lack of a better description.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right, yeah, my new piece of merch.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I just, I m releasing a journal called the Steel Like an Artist Journal.
4
SPEAKER_01
And what the journal is supposed to be is it s a notebook that you carry around and it has prompts and it also has blank pages, but it has these kind of creativity prompts that are supposed to kind of jump your imagination and kind of kickstart things for you.
4
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, you might be saying, like, well, why would I carry around a paper journal?
4
SPEAKER_01
But I think as we ve talked about earlier in this conversation, the beautiful thing about a journal is it s just kind of this walled world that you can kind of open up and dive into.
4
SPEAKER_01
So, you know,
5
SPEAKER_03
If you go to a cafe with just your journal, you can have that kind of quiet, dedicated space that we were talking about, where you can kind of let your ideas come forth.
5
SPEAKER_03
And so, the journal should be out soon, if it s not already out when this airs.
5
SPEAKER_03
And it s been one of my favorite projects I ve done recently, and it s based off of my other two books, Steal Like an Artist and Show Your Work.
5
SPEAKER_00
Great, thanks so much, Austin.
5
SPEAKER_00
And we ll, of course, link to that in the show notes, so no worries there.
5
SPEAKER_00
And we ll link to your other books as well if people want to catch up on Stealing Like an Artist, Showing Your Work, et cetera, et cetera.
5
SPEAKER_00
So thank you very much for your time.
5
SPEAKER_00
This has been wonderful.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I had a blast.
5
SPEAKER_03
Thanks for having me.
5
SPEAKER_01
I really like that one, huh Jason?
5
SPEAKER_01
You re a fan too, eh?
5
SPEAKER_01
Dude, I m a super fan.
5
SPEAKER_01
I love this guy.
5
SPEAKER_01
I actually read his book before we even booked him.
5
SPEAKER_01
I was tickled pink to have a chat.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes, I m sure.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I saw you guys during the break comparing bookstore notes or something like that.
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So I know you guys had fun with that one even while I was doing my thing over here in studio.
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Yeah, he s on a book tour right now, so definitely check him out if you re in any of the cities that he s going to.
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Come hang out and have a beer.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I love the productive procrastination.
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I feel like I kind of do that by accident, but I always felt guilty about it because I m like, oh, I m just procrastinating.
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But now that you mentioned it, yeah, I m just working on multiple things.
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I don t think that my ADD would let me focus on only one thing.
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It s just not gonna happen.
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I gotta do multiple things.
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So finding out that other artists do that and that it s productive is great.
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And the fact that, look, we re all embracing other people s influences, so instead of trying to deny it, think of yourself as a remix, a mashup of what you let into your life, which makes curating what you let into your life that much more important, aka the five closest friends, aka what podcasts you listen to, et cetera.
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So yeah, I dug this one.
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I hope everybody else did as well.
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And of course, the show is a fanarchy.
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It s run by you.
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We rely on you to help keep our finger on the pulse.
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So if you know someone who s a good fit, let us know.
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Guests at theartofcharm.com.
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And if you enjoyed this, don t forget to thank Austin on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as his new book and his old books.
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And you can tap the album art in most mobile podcast players to see the show notes right on your phone.
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I m also on Twitter, at theartofcharm.
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You wanna follow me, trust me.
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I m funnier there than I am here, which isn t saying much.
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Bootcamp details, bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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Sold out a few months in advance.
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If you re thinking about it, hit us up.
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We don t need to hard sell ya.
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Like I said, we re sold out, so just get the info and move forward from there.
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Subscribe on iTunes.
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We ve got our iPhone and Android apps.
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Write us a review.
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We will love you, especially me and Jason.
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Special thanks to the Jasons for their help in production of the Art of Charm podcast.
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Tell your friends, the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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Now have a great week and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to The Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and everything for the extraordinary man at theartofcharmpodcast.com.