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This is the art of charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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Today we re talking with Bill Kasky and Brian Neal.
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They run a podcast called The Advanced Selling Podcast.
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And I know what you re thinking, I m not a salesman, I don t need this.
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We re actually gonna talk a lot about the quote unquote inner game mindset so that sales, top salesmen are better at sales and in life and in everything they do.
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We re gonna talk about the differences between persuasion and influence.
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We re gonna go through a communication checklist that involves the philosophy of which words you choose,
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something called detachment and how that relates to outcome independency, which actually makes you more successful.
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So in other words, not having a goal, or at least not having the goal in mind can actually make you more likely to achieve that goal.
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We re also going to give some serious roleplay airtime.
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which is kind of funny, and we re going to give some examples that amateurs say and do when they fail to implement these skills.
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So you re going to want to be on the lookout for any examples that sound remarkably like yourself.
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I know I found some stuff in there that I can use as well, and that it definitely sounded like back in the day.
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So with that, welcome to The Art of Charm.
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I m Jordan Harbinger.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
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Imagine having a mix of experienced mentors
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teaching you their expertise, and packing all of their research, testing, and lessons into a curriculum.
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We may not have all the answers, but we definitely have all the questions.
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Make sure to stay up to date with AOC and get some great stuff that we don t share on the show by signing up at theartofcharm.com.
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We ll email you our Fundamentals Toolkit that covers topics like body language, nonverbals, persuasion, business networking, public speaking, negotiation, and of course, sales and selling.
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I m also doing regular videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward every single week, and those are also on that list.
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So don t forget, we ve got our live programs running every week here in LA.
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In fact, we ve got guys from all over the world, which shows that no matter where you are, you can make it here if you want to learn and grow.
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And I want to encourage you to join the Social Capital Challenge.
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It s about improving your social capital, your social circle, inspiring more people to develop a personal and professional relationship with you.
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Measure your influence.
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There s a lot of stuff that we threw into this.
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Theartofcharm.com slash challenge,
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text charmed to 33444.
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That s right, you can sign up with your phone, it s pretty cool.
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Text charmed to 33444 or go to theartofcharm.com slash challenge.
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It will make you a better networker, it will make you a better connector, and of course, I ll be there to help you every step of the way.
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So with that, let s welcome Bill Kasky and Brian Neal.
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You guys are super interesting characters, because I ll admit, when I first heard, oh, we ve got these sales guys and they should be on your show, and apparently that s how Kim from Podcast One talks when she book shows, but I was not thrilled, I ll put it that way, because when I think about, and I m sure I m not the only one, when I think about sales guys, I think of, hey, my name s Bill Keski, how you doing?
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All right, nice to meet you.
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Oh, you re from Texas?
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Oh, me too.
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Oh, I got a great car for you.
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You know, that kind of crowd.
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Or one rung better where they re like, oh yeah, the stereo s so sweet, but it s only sweeter if you have this added onto it.
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Nobody likes salespeople when they come across as salespeople because it s just nasty.
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And when we think of sales techniques, which is the other thing that she said we were going to quote-unquote learn today, I was like, ugh, no thanks.
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Because I think of the, well, if you don t buy it now, it s going to be twice the price next week.
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And it s like, look, man, no.
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I looked on the internet.
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I have perfect information about this product.
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You gentlemen teach salespeople and frankly anybody listening right now to master the inner game mindset so that they re better at sales and it crosses over
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Pretty much 100% into life and everything else that you do because it s about, and I ll let you flesh this out, it s much more about persuasion and relationships and being able to help other people than it is about influencing them to get what they want.
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I would agree to that.
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It s impressive that you picked that up, too.
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I m very impressed.
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I picked it up only because, first of all, you guys talked to me and I thought, okay, these guys are likable.
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I don t like that.
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I m gonna check into these guys.
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I like these guys.
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I m not supposed to like these guys.
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And I looked at some of your stuff and I thought, oh, okay, what you guys do, and I hate to brand other people, but it s very close to what Art of Charm does, except you apply it in a very specific way, at least in some areas, not in everything, of course.
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we go all over the place and you go in a different direction, but when I think of being likable and creating a philosophy that helps people get ahead, whether at work or in other relationships, I mean, we definitely have that in common, so I would love to hear about that.
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And why is sales important?
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If I m not a salesperson right now, should I just turn this off because this isn t relevant to me?
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You know, there was a guy named Daniel Pink who wrote a book called To Sell is Human a couple of years ago.
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And I think he was the first guy to come along publicly and say, look, I don t care what you do, you re in sales.
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I don t care if you re hunting a job, hunting a spouse, trying to make a sale to a customer, a prospect, accountant, everyone is in sales to some degree or another.
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But I think what you just said, Jordan, is true is that we look at that profession and we say,
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God, yeah, I m in sales, but I certainly don t want to look like my dad s Pontiac.
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I don t want to look like that.
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So we re going to talk tonight a little bit about how do you, instead of how do you sell, how do you attract?
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How do you attract people to you?
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You have a target audience.
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You either have a constituent base that you re trying to communicate your value to.
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How do you do it in a non-sleazy, wholesome, high-integrity way?
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And we think, Brian and I think, that if you do that right, you re going to make a hell of a lot more money than you are in the old way.
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So basically, what you re saying is along the lines of Daniel Pink, is everyone s selling no matter what.
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Whether they realize it or not, they re selling themselves, maybe just not a product.
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100% of the time.
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Think about this.
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Just what Bill said.
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If you, let s say you re a computer programmer and you re working on a project and you ve got an idea in the project, part of your ability to get that idea across and get everyone bought in is to be able to show up in a way that allows them to receive your idea and almost sometimes either see it as theirs or collaborate with you.
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That s much more charming to people than someone coming in and trying to drive an idea down someone s throat.
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trying to get a job.
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So some of your listeners that have gotten downsized or whatever has happened and now they re on an interview.
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Yeah, there s a lot of young people too.
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One of the questions that we get a lot is how do I sell myself to my employers or to my prospective employers?
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So I m definitely on board with you there.
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Yeah, and think about this because you brought it up, the younger people coming into the workforce and they re thinking, okay, how do I look good here?
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The millennial group is very into advancement.
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They really want to move forward.
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And too often they look externally at how do I do that?
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Bill and I would have them look internally and say, if you just show up a certain way and just be a certain way, the result part takes care of itself.
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But everyone wants to look and say, okay, what exactly do I say?
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We teach people what to say for sure.
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Before that, though, we teach people how to be.
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Just how to be charming, how to feel and show up with better energy.
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That s the inner game side you were talking about earlier.
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Yeah, that definitely makes sense.
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And I m, I guess, technically a millennial.
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There s a lot of wait.
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What do I do?
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How do I say?
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How do I get this to happen?
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And there s definitely a place for that.
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But I think the wise, older, if I dare, generation
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has a good aim and a good sort of angle on a philosophy for getting things done that s completely different.
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And I would love to hear from you about how your philosophy, if I can sort of dramatize the word here, impacts the words that you use, the way you communicate, the results you get, especially at the end of what you re trying to do.
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Yeah, we have a model that we ve used in the past, and it s the idea that if you want to get better results, you have to change the way you act.
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So if you want to make more money, get more clients, advance through the company, get career promotions, you have to change how you act.
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But if you want to really change your results exponentially, you have to change how you think.
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I m a little older, a generation older than Brian, but we ve talked a lot about nobody really sat us down when we were 24 years old at our first job and say, Brian, Bill, Jordan, let me tell you exactly what you should be thinking every time you go out to make a call in sales and leadership.
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We were taught what to do a lot of times, never taught how to think.
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And so that s what we want to get into today a little bit with your audience is this idea of how do you think in order to attract people?
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Because regardless of your audience, whether again, we ve set a new dating audience, business audience, you are looking to attract people to you by how you are.
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And so we re going to get into that because I think all these five things are really part of an overall philosophy of attracting to you versus trying to persuade people.
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Yeah, because a lot of times a lot of people that do we do also say, you know You just need to think positive just have a good attitude all that s alone.
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We don t do that No, not at all flag you if you say crap like that on this.
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Would you please would you please?
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Yeah, this is about having a codified very specific way to be that s internally focused, right?
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It s in a movie called colors and I ll clean it up for us But you know the two bulls sitting up on top of the hill the young bull says to the old bull Let s run down and meet with one of the cows
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The old bull said, let s walk down and meet with all of them.
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Keep that in there.
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Very clean.
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Very clean.
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Yeah, I was like, I ve heard this before, but it sounded different.
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I know.
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Thank you.
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You were nervous, weren t you, right?
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Yeah.
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That story is all about swagger for me.
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It s about internal swagger.
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It s about having an energy inside of you.
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And the other thing, not just for Bill and I to tell people to have swagger, but actually to give it a name, to give it some names underneath it so it s codified, so people can understand it and grasp it better.
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We love codes.
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We love codified anything.
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So, let s talk about that.
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I mean, the attraction versus the, I don t know, the stampede method, if you will, running down the hill.
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Call back to the cow.
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Yeah, I like it.
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Bulls on the hill.
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How do we make ourselves more attractive to our audience, just to speak broadly?
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I mean, we talked pre-show about detachment, but I would love to hear more about that.
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It sounds like the cow, or the bull, in one of them anyway, was very detached.
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Yes.
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So here s what happens.
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We are born and we have this bundle of potential.
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And if I were doing my good Deepak Chopra, I would talk about the human potential of all of us.
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But the human potential, and so we re born with that.
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And then what happens is we start to have experiences.
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And those experiences lead us to beliefs.
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And those beliefs that we start to acquire lead us to judgment, which is something is either good or it s bad.
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We kind of live in that binary culture.
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It s either off or it s on.
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So if I ask a girl out and she says no, we have judged that to be bad.
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If I try to make a sale and the customer says yes, and I get the sale, I judge that as good.
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The problem is that the more we judge, the more we beat ourselves up when we get nos, and the celebrations don t last very long when we get yeses.
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We prefer to say, well, let s talk about these outcomes here, these outcomes of yeses and nos, and let s figure out a way to detach from them.
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Because if I get a no, if I get three or four nos in a row, the fourth or fifth person I talk to, I may not be in the best of mood because I have that reach back to my feelings.
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So, yeah, we like to think of the outcomes as neutral.
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Whether she says yes or no, whether the customer says yes or no is just an outcome.
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You have to detach from that because the instant you get attached to a yes,
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You will start to configure your process weirdly and it ll start to become stalking.
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It ll start to become creepy.
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You re not going to do the things that are really going to attract somebody.
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So the first step in this whole attraction strategy is detached from any and all outcomes.
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Now it s easier said than done.
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We ll get into how to do that, but that s element number one.
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That s so funny that that s one of your principles because we talk about outcome independence at the Art of Charm a lot.
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Less on the show and more at our live training boot camps because it can be kind of a tricky thing where people turn it into like, I don t care about anything and they just run ripshod through everything and ruin all their relationships or whatever.
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I would love to hear you deconstruct why that actually works because to play the counter argument, to play devil s advocate here, the only thing I m doing with my law degree right now,
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Shouldn t I want to have a clear goal in mind and focus on that and if I think about it, I m more likely to get it because it was in that one book that came with the DVD, you know what I m talking about?
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I want the Ferrari, that s the outcome I want.
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So I m going to meditate on this and I m going to open my garage and one day it s going to be there.
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As anyone listening knows, I hate that.
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Why is that not the way to do things and why, even my exaggeration of course, given, why can t we think of this as a goal and achieving a goal?
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It seems counterintuitive.
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Great question.
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Great question.
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So I ll tell you a personal story that might help put this into perspective here.
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People often confuse, and even when Bill and I teach our own clients, people get really confused.
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They get this detachment thing confused with not caring, and it couldn t be further from that.
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We care immensely.
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We are just not in the moment of things wrapped up in the outcome that s about to be.
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So here s the personal story.
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I am a football referee and I referee at the highest level possible now in the National Football League.
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My goal when I started when I was 19 years old was to get in the National Football League.
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That was my stated goal.
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So that was my open the garage.
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And there it is.
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And they say, Hey, Brian, come up the National Football League.
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But I couldn t worry about that part.
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I had to only worry about the game that I m working.
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So I never took my desire to referee the National Football League out on the field with me when I was refereeing a sixth grade peewee game.
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25 years before I got into the league, if that makes sense to you.
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On the football field, we have a very common saying called play the next play.
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And what that allows you to do is compartmentalize the little outcomes along the way in the steps, knowing that if you do that and work each individual play to the best of your ability, in the end, you open the garage door and the Ferrari s there.
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Or in my case, in the end, you get the phone call, you say, hey, man, welcome to the NFL.
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I never worried about that along the way.
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I always had it as a goal, and I never worried about it in the game that I was working.
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All I worried about was the play I was about to work.
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Hey, Art of Charm listeners.
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you re focusing much more on the immediate results of whatever you do, namely the things that are going to make you great versus someday I ll be great.
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You got it.
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Yes.
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I m showing up to that play with confidence and attachment in that play.
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And I know if I do that, my brain will be clear.
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I ll make good decisions.
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And if I make good enough decisions, I ll eventually get the call to go to the bigs.
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Okay, that s extremely important, and can we apply that to somebody who wants to, I hate doing the wealth thing, but let s say somebody wants to start a business, because a lot of people write in and they re like, I hate my day job, which is totally normal, and I want to start something.
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I ll often, I don t have time to coach individuals normally, but I ll often write back, why?
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Just to see if they hate their job and there s a manageable issue, or if they just don t have any passion, or if there s something else, and the worst response
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I just wanna make money passively or some variation of I wanna live a different, more privileged lifestyle.
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And that s the only thing they mention, because that s such a huge, enormous red flag.
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The people I know that are successful say things like, I m gonna quit my day job.
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Yeah, I don t like it, but I wanna build something that will help people regulate what they eat, that they can wear, and I ve got tons of ideas.
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And I m like, wow, okay, they re not even thinking about the paycheck.
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except when they daydream about it when they re waiting for their prototype to come back from China, but they re not just chasing the dollar.
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Yes.
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Yeah, I think, Jordan, what you re talking about there, and we ll do the second one here because they are kind of linked, and that is this idea of, well, if we say detached to the outcomes, what is the amateur really attached to?
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And a lot of times what we re attached to is what s in it for us.
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not what s in it for them.
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And so that s why we talk about this idea of have high intent.
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That s another attraction strategy of when you go into a Brian with a football game in sixth grade or in the Mac or in the Big Ten or me, if I m calling on a prospect or a client, my intent is to take care of them, not to make money.
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Because I know if I m going to take care of them at the best possible way, I m going to solve their biggest possible problem and get paid handsomely for
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it, I will make enough money.
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But the instant my intention goes to what s in this for me, how am I going to, you know, fill my pockets up with cash?
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Now, guess what?
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Customer feels it.
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Customer feels it.
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I give off a vibe of, you know, I m asking you questions, sir, but I really don t care because I m really interested in closing you on this sale.
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And it s so apparent when we get called on by that person.
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So high intent is that idea.
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High intent is where our focus is on the customer and their pains or our target audience.
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In this case, low intent is where our focus is only on us.
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And nobody will admit that they have low intent.
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And yet every time you get called on by a salesperson, you can feel it.
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It just, it just reeks from their skin that they don t really care so much.
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All they care about is the sale.
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Yeah.
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You ask anybody, ask anybody.
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It s going to try to get a job.
2
SPEAKER_01
What s your intent?
2
SPEAKER_01
They re going to say, my intent is to look good.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I get the job, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
They re dead on arrival in our book.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re dead on arrival.
2
SPEAKER_01
The intent should be to have good open balance conversation, to share their story and to vet the other side, to make sure it s the job that they want.
2
SPEAKER_01
Now it s charming.
2
SPEAKER_01
If I try to get you, you re going to feel it and run away.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s not charming.
2
SPEAKER_01
If I create healthy space with my language and my energy and allow us to collaborate and be in the middle, it ll be very, very charming.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s very attractive.
2
SPEAKER_02
And you will leave that interview and that employer will huddle with their people and they ll say, there was something about Jordan.
2
SPEAKER_02
There was just something about him that I like.
2
SPEAKER_02
The way he showed up.
2
SPEAKER_01
The way he showed up.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, he doesn t have the great point that Brian Neal does.
2
SPEAKER_02
Jordan.
2
SPEAKER_02
that was that undefinable something about him.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that s what they ll say, and that s what we teach in our programs.
2
SPEAKER_00
This exclusively seems to come from guys, and I think it comes from getting trampled on and or bullied and or somehow made to feel indignant by maybe the opposite sex.
2
SPEAKER_00
I won t get too far into it, but there s this weird mindset of like, I really don t give a crap.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t care about what anybody thinks of me, and I do what I want and I take what I want.
2
SPEAKER_00
They don t necessarily run around yelling that, but that s the mindset that they have, and when you get upset with them for being a totally insufferable a-hole, they counter with,
2
SPEAKER_00
But I don t care, because somewhere, somewhere on the internet, they learned not to give a crap.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s like modus operandi for life.
2
SPEAKER_00
And somehow, that trickled down from successful entrepreneurs who were doing it tactfully in a way that says, don t worry about other people s judgment, you re going to have naysayers, all the way on down to the formerly downtrodden who are now trying to be these so-called alpha guys.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they re just throwing their weight around.
2
SPEAKER_00
And what s really unfortunate is,
2
SPEAKER_00
when they go around acting like they don t care, when one goes around acting like you don t care at all, the phrase is really just, I don t give a fuck, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
The truth is, you give so many fucks that you let it run your whole life.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that is a huge, huge point that everyone listening to this has to understand.
2
SPEAKER_01
What is possibly charming about saying I don t give a fuck?
2
SPEAKER_01
The point is, it seems like it s very pure.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s very childish to me in my book, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s very immature.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s an immature way to be because it seems tough on the outside and it s not tough at all.
2
SPEAKER_01
As you mature and get into the workforce and as you re maturing through the dating process, I think people that do that attract really weak other people.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because people that are attracted to people that are real cocky like that and I don t give a shit people They re super weak on their own.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and now you re matched up with someone that s very weak and I think that is awful That s a really bad deal.
2
SPEAKER_01
So whether it s a faster.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s a guy So if you come in like that to me and I m a weak boss I m like, I m gonna hire bill cuz he s a tough-ass right?
2
SPEAKER_01
I m a pansy.
2
SPEAKER_01
I
2
SPEAKER_01
So I m going to hire him because he s going to be a tough guy.
2
SPEAKER_01
That will never work in my book.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re too mismatched.
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, Brian and I work with a fair number of CEOs as clients because they bring us in to work with their teams.
2
SPEAKER_02
And when I think about the people you work with and I know the people I work with, the CEOs are never like that.
2
SPEAKER_02
No, they are generous.
2
SPEAKER_02
They are congenial.
2
SPEAKER_02
You re real.
2
SPEAKER_02
If you say, look, Bob, I need to have you.
2
SPEAKER_02
Hey, come on in, Bill.
2
SPEAKER_02
Man, anytime.
2
SPEAKER_02
Let s let s talk.
2
SPEAKER_02
Let s go out to lunch.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so it s that weird thing about the highly successful people are never like that.
2
SPEAKER_02
What is it that makes people think that they are?
2
SPEAKER_02
So I gotta do that whole, I don t give a damn thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s a big mess.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s good to debunk this because a lot of people listening are like, that s what I ve been doing wrong.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve been giving too many fucks, you know, and then they suddenly have, they, they swing the pendulum over to the other side and they become awful.
2
SPEAKER_00
And we get a lot of people who ve swung out of that as well, where they go, look, I became this insufferable guy.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know how to repair my relationships, because that stuff is damaging to normal, like you said, normal people, they will not hire you.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re going to lose even family members out of your social circle, and your friends are gonna all suffer because of this, because you have that negative effect on everyone.
2
SPEAKER_02
Absolutely, agree.
2
SPEAKER_02
The third attraction strategy, if we want to move to that one, is that we ve probably all been in discussions and conversations with people, whether it s at cocktail parties or in business, where one person is just insufferable.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it may be the IDGF guy or, that s my clean way of saying it,
2
SPEAKER_02
Or it could be just somebody that you ve met where the conversation and the interaction is imbalanced.
2
SPEAKER_02
Either one person is coming at the other person or one person is talking too much.
2
SPEAKER_02
So step number three in this attraction checklist is be mindful of creating a balanced interaction where it s a discussion, it s a collaborative discussion, not a one-way pitch.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that s what happens a lot of times if we ve been called on by a sales amateur or amateur, as we say in Indiana, is this idea that, well, the person is here to pitch me.
2
SPEAKER_02
And once you enter into that pitch mode, if you re trying to communicate and persuade your target audience, you lose people because nobody wants to be pitched on anything.
2
SPEAKER_02
So you ve got to be conscious of how do I balance this interaction between pitching and just having a conversation, finding out what the needs and problems of the person are.
2
SPEAKER_02
Tell them a little bit about your solution.
2
SPEAKER_02
Balance, balance, balance.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well good, I appreciate the collaborative idea, but how do we do it?
2
SPEAKER_00
Versus pitching somebody, whether it s a sale, a job, or a relationship, how do we not pitch but make it collaborative?
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you have specific languaging that we can actually use?
2
SPEAKER_02
You want to roleplay it?
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, we ll roleplay it.
2
SPEAKER_02
We re not prepared for this.
2
SPEAKER_01
Can I be you?
2
SPEAKER_01
Or can I be the NFL referee now?
2
SPEAKER_00
That might be confusing.
2
SPEAKER_01
And this also leads into our fourth element here too.
2
SPEAKER_01
So let s go ahead and put that on the table too.
2
SPEAKER_01
So the fourth element of the attraction checklist is set the stage up front.
2
SPEAKER_01
So set the stage up front is doing just that.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s creating the communication space.
2
SPEAKER_01
tactically so that I have a good open collaborative environment around.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I m also going to put balance in there.
2
SPEAKER_01
So if I m talking to Bill for the first time, and he s a CEO thinking about hiring me in to be his sales coach for a sales team, I say, Bill, first calls for me typically go the same way.
2
SPEAKER_01
The idea here is to share back and forth.
2
SPEAKER_01
You tell me things about, I ll ask tons of questions, that sort of thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m an open book, so I ll tell you everything that you d like to know about me, my philosophy, how I work.
2
SPEAKER_01
The intent is pretty pure.
2
SPEAKER_01
I want to see, we want to see if I m right for you, if you re right for me.
2
SPEAKER_01
And this is collaborative in spirit for me.
2
SPEAKER_01
And we ll see we land where we land, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
So we ll do that.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then anything else, you know, fire away.
2
SPEAKER_02
Okay, that s fair.
2
SPEAKER_02
So then I would say to that, if I m the customer, I d say, okay, I mean, that sounds good.
2
SPEAKER_02
I ve got some questions.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, I want to know how much it is.
2
SPEAKER_02
I want to know who you ve worked with.
2
SPEAKER_02
When do you want to talk about that?
2
SPEAKER_01
Perfect.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_01
Let s make a list right now.
2
SPEAKER_01
Questions if we can.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
So we re just going back and forth and to say, we re going to talk about all those things eventually.
2
SPEAKER_01
Or say, tell you what, I ll give you 90 seconds on me high level, you give me 90 seconds on you high level, and then we ll do some of the Q&A stuff.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is that cool?
2
SPEAKER_01
We ll definitely talk about the money, the process, all that jazz, we ll get all of it out.
2
SPEAKER_01
At the end, we ll say yes, no, or maybe, and we ll land where it lands.
2
SPEAKER_02
And we re on a roll for that.
2
SPEAKER_02
In this process, there is no pitching.
2
SPEAKER_02
Pitching is a thing of the past.
2
SPEAKER_02
I know there s a lot of podcasts on the pitch, the ultimate pitch, the unbelievable pitch.
2
SPEAKER_02
But I don t think pitching, especially when you re selling and when you re in this kind of relationship.
2
SPEAKER_02
Now, if you re pitching venture capital and you re in front of a room and you re trying to get $40 million, that is a pitch.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that might be a little different, although not much.
2
SPEAKER_02
But when you re face-to-face with another human being,
2
SPEAKER_02
Enough with the pitching.
2
SPEAKER_02
People don t, you don t want to hear it.
2
SPEAKER_02
It forces me away from you.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s the exact opposite of the way you want it to happen.
2
SPEAKER_02
You want me to be attracted to you.
2
SPEAKER_02
So stop the pitching and set that stage up front.
2
SPEAKER_02
And you notice Brian s words there, and we would recommend you use this even if you re going on a brand new job interview.
2
SPEAKER_02
Say, look, I appreciate you inviting me in for this interview.
2
SPEAKER_02
I don t know if I m the right candidate for you or not.
2
SPEAKER_02
I don t know if you re the right company for me.
2
SPEAKER_02
Let s talk a little bit.
2
SPEAKER_02
I ll share my story, you share yours, and let s see where this goes.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s very disarming and that s where you start to develop strength.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s another communication tool here in the balance that you have to be aware of because you have to be a little careful with this that it doesn t come across sometimes as potentially too weak or too far back.
2
SPEAKER_01
Cavalier.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and not caring.
2
SPEAKER_01
So you might even say, so if I were talking to Bill and he was a CEO, I d say, look, in the end, you could talk to six other sales coaches
2
SPEAKER_01
Once you talk to us for 30-40 minutes, you ll know exactly which one should work with your people and you should pick that.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you interviewed my clients, they would all say wonderful things about me.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve been with them for seven years.
2
SPEAKER_01
On average, they would say the guy is phenomenal.
2
SPEAKER_01
He s lifted my company up.
3
SPEAKER_00
change my sales culture, they d all say that the ones that I m with now, you can also find a couple from my past that wouldn t say that.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you hear the balance there, we go forward and a little bit back.
3
SPEAKER_00
So right, I always feel like this comes from my football referee.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so when I go on the football field on a Sunday, I have to operate at the confidence cocky line, I have to have the confidence line right up to where it meets cocky and never cross the line.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if I ever feel myself across the line, I gotta pull back, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
What kind of feedback?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s great.
3
SPEAKER_00
You will always grab feedback from the other person you re communicating with, and they will tell you.
3
SPEAKER_00
They will tell you, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
As soon as the hair, and everybody knows this, and the hair stands up on the back of their head, or they say something, or they give you a look, and Bill can do it, you know, now, you know, he could ask me some question as a CEO and say, well, I might say, well, like you just did that, I might say, well, it doesn t sound like you want to sell me very bad.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Doesn t sound like you re that committed to your process.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
So now I ve said something that s caused him to say that, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So I ve got to pull that back a little bit to say that certainly wasn t my intent.
3
SPEAKER_00
What was it that I said that made you say that?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, you said that, you know, you weren t sure if we were a fit because you didn t know me yet.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you don t know me yet, but I m hoping you are a fit.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, let me rephrase that and see if I can frame it for you better.
3
SPEAKER_00
If I don t, tell me, let me know, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So the intent here is I never wanna assume that I m the right person in all situations.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because if you sit here and talk to me for 20 minutes, you may hope that I am, but there may be something I say or the way that I am, you ll be like, my salespeople would never buy into you.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if that s the case, I don t wanna do the deal and neither do you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Out of role for a second.
3
SPEAKER_01
The answer is that you have to play off what s happening.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, great quarterbacks will say, you know, I can have the best game plan, but I got to deal with what the defense gives me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Always.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, game plans.
3
SPEAKER_01
What s this old Tyson thing?
3
SPEAKER_01
You can have a plan, but once you get hit in the face, plan s gone.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s now the Ronnie Rousey rule.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
So anyway, that s the answer to that.
3
SPEAKER_01
So step four is that setting the stage up front like Brian did.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that goes for any kind of communication.
3
SPEAKER_01
Dating, meeting somebody at a bar, you know, being in a network environment.
3
SPEAKER_01
That whole setting the stage, it takes 30 seconds and it s 30 seconds that nobody does.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yep.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s interesting.
3
SPEAKER_02
How do I know if I ve been too cocky and not just not confident enough?
3
SPEAKER_01
You re focused on yourself, not on the other person.
3
SPEAKER_02
So feedback-wise, what happens?
3
SPEAKER_02
They start to tune out in the conversation, or they start to?
3
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_00
I would always take the cue from the other person.
3
SPEAKER_00
They will react.
3
SPEAKER_00
They will react, and oftentimes, if they throw a jab at you, it s like you get back in your corner jab.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s what I did.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, what you did, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you don t sound like you re very interested in this.
3
SPEAKER_00
If it comes at you, it s like a verbal dart.
3
SPEAKER_00
Think of it that way.
3
SPEAKER_00
That should be a cue that something s up, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
They don t all of a sudden appear open.
3
SPEAKER_00
They feel like they re on the attack.
3
SPEAKER_00
Ah, that s interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
Usually people come on the attack verbally when they feel like they ve either been attacked or they re trying to pipe you back down.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that makes sense.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_02
Otherwise, it will be an open, free-flowing conversation.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
It should feel effortless to both parties when it s working.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right, yeah, effortless is actually a great way to look at it.
3
SPEAKER_02
If it feels like you re trying to do too much convincing or they re not playing an equal part in the conversation, there s something wrong.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, we have talked in the past on the podcast a little bit about this idea of okay, not okay, and it was a pop psychology concept back in the early 70s, but the fact is, I have a simple mind, so it s really simple for me to understand.
3
SPEAKER_01
People are always striving to be okay
3
SPEAKER_01
And if you say something that makes them not okay, they ll tell you.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what we just did in that role play is he said something that made me not okay and I told him by challenging him by throwing that dart.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if you find somebody is in that situation where they re throwing a dart at you or they just have a weird reaction, you have made them not okay for some reason.
3
SPEAKER_01
Don t take them to therapy, just recognize what you ve done and you need to figure out a way to bail yourself out.
3
SPEAKER_02
Okay, excellent.
3
SPEAKER_02
All right, back to the show.
3
SPEAKER_02
So let s talk about a language framework, like we talked about earlier, that people can use immediately in their next meaningful conversation, whether it s with their wife, their girlfriend, their boss, or their potential boss, or anybody who s important to them, because that s a lot of what people are tuning in to deal with, is how do I get expert people skills to deal with important stuff that I inevitably come across and either screw up or sometimes get right and don t know why?
3
SPEAKER_01
We believe that it is up to you, it is up to your listeners and to you to control the process.
3
SPEAKER_01
You cannot rely on somebody else controlling the process.
3
SPEAKER_01
So let s say that you re a manager and you want to bring two or three of your people together to talk about a project or to get their input.
3
SPEAKER_01
You wouldn t just start asking them questions.
3
SPEAKER_01
Hey, Brian, what do you think about this?
3
SPEAKER_01
We re thinking about doing this.
3
SPEAKER_01
You would say, guys, thanks for coming in today.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let me tell you why I ve invited you in.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m looking at doing a project and I m going to need some help.
3
SPEAKER_01
I d like to ask you all some questions, get some input from you.
3
SPEAKER_01
I d like for you to ask me questions maybe about why we re doing it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then we ll spend 30 minutes and let s just get some whiteboard ideas.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let s bullet point some things on the board.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then at the end, we can decide what the next step is.
3
SPEAKER_01
One next step might be that we get together again.
3
SPEAKER_01
One next step might be, you know what, this is not as good a project as I thought it was.
3
SPEAKER_01
So in one minute s time, you ve laid out the entire procedure.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now everybody knows exactly what s expected of them.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that s an example of setting the stage up front for an internal meeting.
3
SPEAKER_01
Anytime you have a meeting with a manager or boss where it s significant, where there s actually something going on, you need to set the stage up front.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yep.
3
SPEAKER_00
Another example.
3
SPEAKER_00
Let s do the example where I m going in to ask for a raise because a lot of people wonder, how can I ask for more money?
3
SPEAKER_00
So instead of going in and say, hey, Bill, can I talk to you for a second?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Hey, I wanted to talk about my pay plan.
3
SPEAKER_00
As soon as you say that the person s like, Oh, here we go.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know where this is going budget cuts.
3
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
So he s body language is like frunked over.
3
SPEAKER_00
He s like, Oh, God, he s playing the boss.
3
SPEAKER_00
So what I would say instead of say, Hey, Bill, I want to come in and talk to you about something and get your perspective on it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know sometimes it can be it s kind of a touchy subject, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So I just wanted to lay out a couple of ideas and things that I was thinking about.
3
SPEAKER_00
I want to get your input on them.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I love your guidance on how you think I should handle this.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think I m going to tell you.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s a version, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So that was a little choppy, but that s, you know, the point is I haven t said what it is yet.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if I m like, yeah, sure.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or, hey, I want to get your input.
3
SPEAKER_01
But you set the stage.
3
SPEAKER_01
You set the stage.
3
SPEAKER_01
30 seconds.
3
SPEAKER_01
I counted.
3
SPEAKER_01
30 seconds.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you ve got to give that a name.
3
SPEAKER_00
We ll call that on the podcast the upfront agreement sometimes.
3
SPEAKER_00
We ll say that s what it is.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if you re going to have a meeting, the practical application here is, what does my upfront agreement sound like?
3
SPEAKER_00
I sketch it out.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t script it out.
3
SPEAKER_00
I sketch the framework out because we re also not a fan of
3
SPEAKER_00
scripting around here, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because that s contrived and robotic.
3
SPEAKER_00
I say, what do I want?
3
SPEAKER_00
How do I want to set the stage from old speech class from high school, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
You learn a common public speaking process, which is tell them what you re going to tell them, tell them and tell them what you told them.
3
SPEAKER_00
All we re doing is telling them what you re going to tell them.
3
SPEAKER_02
So how do we set this up in the beginning of maybe a less formal conversation, something personal, like what if I have to tell my girlfriend something awful, and how about this, something that a lot of people can relate to, because we all have friends, but hopefully a situation that doesn t happen to too many, we borrowed your car and it got hit in the parking lot, or we hit somebody else, and now we have to tell you about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s good.
3
SPEAKER_00
Don t you give a shot at it, then I ll give a shot.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we ll give it a shot here.
3
SPEAKER_00
So so I borrowed Bill s car and I got swiped in the parking lot.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I m coming to talk to you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
According to me.
3
SPEAKER_00
All right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Say, hey, I need to talk to you about something.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s not great news.
3
SPEAKER_00
You got my keys, by the way.
3
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So I would tell you what happened and get something we got to talk about.
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And then I ve got some ideas on how to handle it.
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And again, you re not going to like it.
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My hope is that I m not going to make you happy.
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I know that I m just going to make you as happy as we can be.
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And I m also going to tell you that I m going to handle the issue.
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All right.
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So here s what happened.
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We re in the now I m going to the story.
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See that?
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I just set up.
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I get up.
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I get him safe.
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I just try to get him safe and just hold him safe.
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And then I go into the subject as opposed to going, hey, man, bad news.
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I wrecked your car.
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Yeah.
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And you re acting like, what?
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And he flips off the handle.
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or trying to go the other way where, you know, it s only a little scratch.
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It s really not a big deal.
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I think you have to meet, and this is the key here, you have to meet people where they are.
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And so if you re going in for a raise, your boss is going to be skeptical.
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So you have to be skeptical.
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If you re going in to tell your friend about the collision, they re going to be upset.
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So you ve got a mirror upset.
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You re upset because you didn t want this to happen.
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But you have to set that stage up front.
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So I like that.
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I don t know if I can improve on that.
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Perfect.
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Oh, I don t know.
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I think the key with setting the stage is just is a upfront understanding of what the conversation is going to be.
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So if you re going to go home and talk to your wife about going to see a movie, honey, I heard about a movie today.
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I was listening to Art of Charm and they talked about a documentary.
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I don t know what it s like.
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Would you be open to talking about seeing that tonight?
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It sounds really good.
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I don t know.
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She will say, you know what I hate?
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My wife does.
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I hate documentaries.
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OK, honey.
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That s fine.
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Yeah, what do you want to say?
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Well, she ll come back five minutes.
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I say well, what was it about?
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Yeah now we re starting to have a dialogue.
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I don t have her I m not trying to convince her but when you plant that seed up front it comes back.
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It does really good.
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This is true story I always come bring home a documentary.
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She s like, oh god another documentary and then about ten minutes.
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I what was it?
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What s about apes?
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Okay, let s do it.
4
Oh
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Excellent.
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Well, the only place that you can get the communication checklist that you guys just sort of broadcasted is right here.
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We ll offer that up in the show notes as well.
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And there s one final point here, what amateurs say and sound like and how to be more professional in your work.
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I would love to go over some sort of common mistakes because a lot of people right now are going, this is an okay episode, but I feel like I do that already.
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And I feel like this is the point where you go,
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Well, if you re doing it this way, it s bad for these reasons, and they go, oh no, I m totally doing all those things.
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That s what I usually learn when I do interviews is, I got this, and then what amateurs, what does it sound like when you do it wrong?
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And then there s a really good imitation of me right then.
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I would also say anybody that listens to your podcast is listening to it for a reason to improve themselves.
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And I know that not every episode is going to be great for them, but I will tell you this, and this again comes from my experience in refereeing at the highest possible level on the planet, is that growth for the expert, growth for the pro is at the margin.
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And there was always something marginal in every episode you do.
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So anyone that catches themselves saying, I already do this had better look themselves in the mirror again and say, Do I really want to be a pro?
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Because every pro that I deal with, and I m on the football field with every Sunday, they never look in the mirror and say that they never look in the mirror and say, I already do that.
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They re always looking for an edge.
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That s just a little commentary for that.
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You can say, I think I do that.
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I think I m pretty good at that, but I don t know now that Brian does that.
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One thing that you can do is, and we ve all got the phones, although if you re on the phone, you can t record yourself, but record yourself in a circumstance like that.
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You don t have to, don t put it online, just record yourself and you will start to hear things that you do that you had no freaking idea you did.
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And, Jordan, I know when you listen to your podcast, probably when you first started, if you re like us, we abhorred the idea of listening to ourselves.
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But after you do it a few times, it s a great lesson in what you do wrong and how to improve.
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And I think it s the same thing here, is tape yourself, just record yourself, and you ll start to hear, ooh, boy, I wasn t very detached there.
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I really kind of came at the person there.
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Geez, I didn t think I did that.
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Now, let s go and answer your question directly.
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So what are some things that amateurs do or say that we think are common mistakes?
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The first thing is, is whatever the subject of the conversation.
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So we ve used a couple here.
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I m going to job interview.
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I m going to ask for a raise.
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I m going to try to sell something, sell an idea, ask a girl out.
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Most people will tend to dive into that in an awkward spot.
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So they ll do some report building like, hey, Bill, yeah, what s going on?
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Okay, good.
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Do you have a good weekend?
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Yeah, I did.
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Yeah.
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Okay, good.
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Kids.
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Did your kid win the basketball game?
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He couldn t play he was injured.
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Okay, well, um, hey, I want to talk about my page.
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It goes like that.
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It s
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I said he was injured, did you hear me?
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Exactly, that s the point.
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They re all uncomfortable with it because they don t know how to start.
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That s okay, because they re thinking about themselves, not the other human.
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Goes back to the outcome sort of dependence.
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Exactly.
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And I m just detached from it.
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So instead, I can do that rapport building stuff.
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And so then after the basketball, now I can go what we taught earlier.
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So I can say, hey, I want to talk to you about a subject, a little uncomfortable for me.
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This is the first time I ve ever done this and talked about this with anyone.
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So I wanted to lay out what I was thinking, get your perspective on it, ask for a couple of things and pieces of information from you.
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And then you can kind of tell me, hey, I m on the right track.
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Yes, I can.
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No, I can t.
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Anything in there will be helpful.
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So you ve relieved the pressure.
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No, the pressure.
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I want to talk to you about my pay plan.
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Yeah.
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And it s received totally different.
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So the biggest mistake they make awkward, uncomfortable report building because they re so nervous about what they re going to talk about.
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They don t know how to start.
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And then they dive in right out of the gate in the most uncomfortable spot.
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Like when the boss said, my son got injured and I go, I want to talk about my people.
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Yeah.
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Or here s what else could happen if you have another minute.
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And that is, let s say that you come in and ask me for a raise, and I say, you know what?
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Budgets are tight.
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No.
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I m sorry, Brian.
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I appreciate the work you do.
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I don t have anything else to give you.
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We automatically then say, well, we were rejected.
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Not necessarily.
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What if Brian then comes back to me and says, you know, Bill, I appreciate it.
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I understand things are tight.
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Look, here s the deal.
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Over the next 90 days, if there s a special project that you have, something that I could do, maybe part time or overtime or something like that, I would be very open to that.
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And the boss is going to say, well, I ll keep that in mind, but no promises.
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And I guarantee you, three weeks from that, he ll call you in and say, hey, I just thought of something.
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And it ll be better having done that than getting a lousy 2.5% raise, because now you have an opportunity to shine in a different way.
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So this gets back to this detachment thing, is you might have left that conversation thinking, I failed, I didn t get the raise.
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You might have left it succeeding, because now you ve planted the seed.
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Excellent.
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Are there more of these?
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Because I actually like these.
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Like another super common one?
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Absolutely.
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Here s a super common one.
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People are, a lot of these conversations we re talking about are uncomfortable for the person delivering them.
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The things like telling my buddy I ride this car, asking the gal out for a date that I work with because I think she s cute and hot and we talk a lot at work, but I ve never crossed the line.
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Asking for a raise, they re uncomfortable.
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So the other thing is the avoidance, avoidance of the subject itself.
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Right.
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And so I go and I go to talk to Bill and I say, how was the weekend?
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Good.
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And say, so I came to ask for a raise.
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Remember?
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So then I go, hey, I just wanted to check in with you to see what you thought, how I was doing.
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right so far.
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Yeah.
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And you re doing okay.
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Why?
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Good.
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I was just wondering, just just walking by your office.
4
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Yeah.
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I wondered if you thought, you know, just generally speaking, there s any I can improve upon or anything you thought that I need to be working on or anything like that.
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And I just keep going down this path of avoiding the subject.
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Yeah.
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And then I do an Oh, by the way at the end, right.
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So I do that kind of uncomfortable stuff.
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And I m like, Oh, by the way, and I don t know if it s possible or not.
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But I was wondering if it might be possible if I could maybe perhaps
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It feels like that.
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Oh yeah, that s awful.
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I m cringing right now just hearing you go through this.
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It s wobbly, it s weak.
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And you all feel for me because I ve been there, we ve probably all been there, and the people listening have been like, oh my god, I just did that last week.
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And the boss knows exactly what you re coming in for when you start that.
4
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He knows exactly where you re going with it.
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Exactly.
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Right.
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And so that s a real common mistake, just avoiding it and rambling through it and not.
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So you heard when I when we roleplayed earlier, good context statement, building a lot of context around what we re going to talk about.
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And then I go, I came to talk to you about my pay plan.
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Boom.
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And I just I have this phrase I teach people, I say, let it hang.
4
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So I say to Bill, I came to talk about my pay plan.
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Truth.
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Freeze.
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Right.
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And let it hang.
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And Bill s like, what s your question about your pay plan?
4
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Now we re collaborative.
4
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Now we re back and forth.
4
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We re in balance.
4
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All the other things we talked about.
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Excellent.
4
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That s good.
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That s a really good one.
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I ve got another one here that amateurs do.
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I think what, you know, we ve talked about this idea of detachment, but really what it really is, is surrender.
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And it s the idea that I m going to surrender to whatever happens.
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If I m going to go out and call on someone, I m going to just surrender to the gods of sales or the gods of business to have happened.
4
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What happens?
4
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Other Byron Katie wrote a book called love.
4
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What is?
4
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I heard Jack Canfield talking about it the other day, it s one of his favorite books, and it s the idea that what other choice do you have but to love what is?
4
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You can t change what is, so you might as well love it.
4
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So I ve got to go into these circumstances with total surrender, that you know what, whatever happens, happens, but I m not
4
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myself, if I don t at least put myself out there, whether it s again, dating or sales or marketing or leadership.
4
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And so that idea of total surrender is very foreign to people.
4
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And it sounds weak, but it s extremely powerful, because now you re not attached to any of the outcomes.
4
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And you can be totally present, I can be totally present with Brian if I have no obligation to the outcome.
4
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That s a really good point, because otherwise, I would imagine the way that you guys work, these things change direction a lot, and you don t know what the outcome even should be some of the time.
4
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It might evolve.
4
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That s beautiful you said that, Jordan, and that is the beauty of the process of communication that we teach here, because what happens is you will then discover something that you didn t even have on your radar to begin.
4
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So you had this ask for a raise on your radar, and what you walk out with may be a whole new pay plan that allows you to get even 50% more than what you were gonna ask for in the first place, because you created the space, yeah.
4
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We ve had boot camp alumni who come to our live training do things like this where they come back and they go, I m gonna ask for a raise, I m long overdue, and I ll check back in with them a month later or something and say, hey, did you go in and ask for a raise?
4
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And they go, you know what, I got a promotion.
4
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because I was able to handle difficult clients.
4
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And I went in and said, look, I m dealing with these difficult clients.
4
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I would like to talk about how that s compensated.
4
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And they said, yeah, I think you should manage these clients, not just be their contact.
4
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And so not only did they get a bigger than what they were gonna ask for a raise, but they ended up with a promotion, a better title to boot.
4
SPEAKER_00
And of course, upward mobility in a corporate structure is the name of the game.
4
SPEAKER_01
Beautiful.
4
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And it s exactly what we ve been talking about today, that client of yours from your bootcamp was practicing high intent.
4
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I want to help these
5
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difficult clients.
5
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That s all about helping people around you, the company, the team, all that jazz, and look what happens.
5
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You get rewarded with really good karma back, promotion, and more money.
5
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Well, great.
5
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Thank you very much, guys.
5
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This has been superb.
5
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We will obviously link to all of the communication checklist in the show notes and to the Advanced Selling Podcast as well.
5
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Really appreciate your time and your insight.
5
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Very cool of you to take the time to break this stuff down, and congrats on being able to, because not many people can.
5
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Well, Jordan, thank you.
5
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I appreciate it.
5
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We re avid listeners to your podcast and keep up your good work, too.
5
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We love it.
5
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Love what you do, man.
5
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
5
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Great stuff in this show.
5
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You know, the roleplay, originally I was like, they wanna do roleplay?
5
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This is gonna be so goofy, and I definitely think it worked really well, because they can explain all these different concepts, but listening to the roleplay actually helps you deconstruct them, so I have a feeling this is gonna be one of those episodes where people either discard entirely or re-listen to at least the roleplay, and I love how this all applies to outcome independency, detachment, language frameworks,
5
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and counter examples of what not to do, which for me have always been very helpful, because I always think I got this, and then I hear the counter example and I go, wait a minute, that s me, what s the difference?
5
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And that difference ends up teaching me so much.
5
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So with that, I hope you enjoyed this one.
5
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Of course, if you did, don t forget to thank Bill and Brian on Twitter.
5
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We ll have that linked in the show notes, as well as the other resources mentioned on the show.
5
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You can tap the album art in most any podcast player, see the show notes right on your phone or your iPad.
5
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I m also on Twitter, at The Art of Charm.
5
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Our boot camps, bootcamp.theartofcharm.com were sold out months in advance, so please, please, please, if you re interested, get in touch.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ll send you the info.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ll get you rockin  and rollin .
5
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Subscribe on iTunes, and of course, we ve got the Art of Charm Challenge.
5
SPEAKER_01
Be a better networker, be a better connector,
5
SPEAKER_01
text CHARMED to 33444 or go to theartofcharm.com slash challenge.
5
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Special thanks to the Jasons and Fogarty for their help in production of the Art of Charm podcast.
5
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Go ahead and tell your friends because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else either in person or shared on the web.
5
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Now have a great week.
5
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Leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
5
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.