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This is the art of charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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Today we re talking with Karen Bitzel, that s Captain Karen Bitzel, or Battleaxe to those who knew her in the service.
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She is a former aviator, 30 years flying for the Navy, and now, well, I don t want to say leadership coach, because as you can see, I ll get in trouble for that, but she is a leadership expert, as well as a multi-talented lady.
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She s gonna teach us a lot of things today about communication,
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specific language what aviation culture brings to the corporate leadership table, the difference between procedure, technique, and something called leadership dirty work, all of which we can take into our lives whether or not we re students, corporate, or military ourselves.
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And that s what we ve got for you today here on The Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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I m here with my producer, Jason.
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Hello, people.
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Every single one of those just sounds so ridiculous, but I know you re doing that on purpose.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
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We may not have all the answers, but we certainly have all the questions.
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All right, let s talk to Battle Axe.
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Tell us what you do in one sentence.
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I sharpen leaders for work, and if I do it well, for life, through military and aviation principles, which I ve gathered over a lifetime.
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And I would say my principal product is to build equity in other fellow human beings along the way.
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And I try and have a bunch of fun doing it at the same time.
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All right, so how did you learn these concepts?
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Because as you know, leadership coaches abound, many of them self-appointed and self-taught.
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Well, let me first say I am not a leadership coach.
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I don t even know what that means.
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I am a practitioner.
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This is 30 years of military experience and then another about eight years now in the corporate world.
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And I learned it through a lifetime of service to this country.
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And what has been so cool about it is so much of what I learned has been so practical and so transferable to other people that I now spend my days doing just that, sharing what a veteran has learned over a lifetime with other folks.
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And it really seems to resonate.
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What did you do in the military?
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What was your service?
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I joined the Navy as a young country kid and ended up as a naval aviator, one of the earlier women in the Navy to fly.
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And I spent about 20 years in the cockpit flying several different platforms.
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I was one of the kind of just an odd Forrest Gump sort of experience of being a woman at a time when the military wasn t quite sure what to do with us in terms of career paths as aviators.
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I flew helicopters and propeller aircraft and ultimately big jets in the Navy.
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And then I spent the last 10 years in leadership development
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and ended up in emergency preparedness as well in 2000, right before 9-11.
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So I spent the last nine years in emergency preparedness work, both at the state and regional level and then in the Pentagon.
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So that s where I finished up.
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How many female aviators are there?
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I mean, especially you ve amassed over 2,000 flight hours on seven ships, six different aircraft types, helicopters, and jets.
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You said Forrest Gump style.
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Does that mean you quote-unquote got lucky with that or what?
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Well, let me start by saying it s hard to believe this, but the first women aviators got into military cockpits in this country in 1974.
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So we re almost 40 years into this.
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It s hard to believe because the numbers were so small.
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I was, I think, the seventh woman to get my wings in helicopters.
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And now there are many more female aviators than there were back in the day because the laws have changed where there was a broader opportunity for a full-fledged career.
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I m not kidding when I said when I got my wings, the Navy and the Air Force were not exactly sure what to do with us because they had to provide us a career path, but the traditional career paths due to combat exclusion were hard to apply for a woman.
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Anybody who spent a career in the military has done something different almost every two to three years, even if you have a particular occupational specialty.
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You either move to a new duty station, you move up in responsibility, or you move in some sort of collateral field in your occupational specialty.
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So, it s one of the reasons why when veterans get out, they have done so many cool things.
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There s kind of a joke inside the military that you move just about the time you get competent in your field to someplace where you re starting all over again, which again, I think is a great
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learning laboratory for anybody who goes on to help other leaders and other followers become good at what they do.
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So back to your first question about leadership coaches, I don t even know what that means.
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I m not a coach, I m a practitioner, and I just share what I learned, the mistakes I made along the way, some things that really translate in the military that I don t see offered in civilian leadership or followership training.
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But every time I talk about it in the civilian world, people go, oh, yeah, I wish my boss heard that or I wish my company did that or boy, I could have really used this three years ago when I goofed this up.
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So that s kind of where the value of all this diverse experience comes along.
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And and I call myself Forrest Gump because I just found myself in so many cool places.
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Now, it s true that
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You know, fortune favors the well-prepared, and I worked my rear end off, but I was also the beneficiary of great leaders born into a great country at a great time, particularly as a woman, for the opportunities that just didn t exist before.
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take me through and take us through, bridge the gap from aviator to leader, or is it more just military in general to leadership?
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Because the word leadership is thrown around a lot in very casual ways, but you hear it especially associated with the military, and it seems like everyone should know that military breeds leaders, but I wanna know specifically what you do and what you have done that now qualifies you for this.
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I just don t wanna have to take anything at face value.
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First, let me say the opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the United States Navy, nor do I speak for every one of the over 22 million vets in this country.
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We all have some things that are in common, but every one of us has a unique experience as well.
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But to your specific question, I think one of the things that the military does so well
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is first, no matter what service you re in, no matter what era, whether it s World War II, or Korea, or Vietnam, or the strategic pause, or the first Gulf War, or the second Gulf War, or Afghanistan, whatever, you re not special in the military.
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Your specialness is being part of the team.
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And you are forced to negotiate with yourself every day to give a little more.
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And so, with that backdrop, you are forced to start with fundamentals.
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We de-stigmatize followership, for one thing.
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A lot of civilian worlds, we get all kind of liquored up on being a leader, and we kind of ignore or forget that all leaders were followers at one time, and in order to be a great leader, you do have to learn how to follow.
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And that s not a stigma in the military.
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You re expected to follow first.
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And it s a skill set.
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If it were a Venn diagram, it would overlap leadership some, but not all.
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And we teach those skills.
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We teach that and we reward it for being good followers.
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Now, that doesn t mean that you re a kiss butt or that you re a mindless drudge, despite what you might see in Hollywood.
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It means you know how to play your role as part of a team.
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And when your leader falls in a hole somewhere, you know what s expected of you.
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And I think we do that particularly well.
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And to think that if you don t know how to follow or being a follower somehow diminishes your status or something, it s really a self-limiting belief.
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So we start there.
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And then we have a really great process.
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It s competency-based.
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You re unqualified at first, and then you work your way up.
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No matter what your specialty, you work yourself up through predictable progression.
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Your training is ongoing and lifelong.
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You re always in some sort of dynamic state, learning first how to basically comply with training requirements.
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And then you seek to be an advanced performer.
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And then you get to the point where you re a high performer.
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You re one of these hold my beer guys and watch me do this because I m really good at what I do.
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And then guess what?
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You get transferred, you get a new job and you start all over again.
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And you re always in the form of requalifying yourself or reinventing yourself or in a dynamic state of improving yourself.
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And it is such a great way to live.
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You re never standing still.
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I did this for 30 years, and I think that it s made me an evangelist for this.
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when I see people living inspired lives, whether they re civilians or military or no matter what stripe they come from, they re committed to that.
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The military was a great structure for making sure that happened for everybody.
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So why did you end up being one of the aviators that went into leadership practice, not coaching, instead of aviation?
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I mean, dot, dot, dot, private pilot, pretty kush gig, retirement.
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Why did you diverge from that?
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Well, that s a very fair question.
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My last fleet squadron was flying Navy DC-9s, which are C-9s, which is a civilian DC-9.
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So it s the big 10.
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It s a hundred seat heavy jet.
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If you ve flown in a DC-9 commercially, the Navy at that time had a fleet of those.
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And I hauled sailors around for three years and I didn t find it very exciting.
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And I also, my husband is a commercial airline pilot.
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He s an international captain.
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And I see what he does every day for a living.
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And I am kind of glad I went into this business because, you know, post 9-11 changed the airline industry for one thing.
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And these guys work pretty hard.
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And I think what drew me to this rather than commercial aviation, which as a female military trained pilot, I m sure I would have been horrible, but I just wanted to share more and work closely with people.
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A commercial airline pilot has an extraordinary amount of stress and an extraordinary amount of responsibility, but they don t have a lot of contact with people, especially post 9-11.
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They shut the door and they drive.
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And I didn t think I wanted to do that.
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I wanted to do this.
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And it actually turned out I was pretty good at it.
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So that was another reason why it started to be really fun.
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I was just curious, because it seems like such a natural transition.
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It s almost like you just get paid more and put on a slightly different uniform, and that s it.
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Well, it is, and the money s better, if you stick around long enough.
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Right, the hotels are nicer, et cetera, et cetera.
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True.
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Before the show, we talked a little bit about military aviation culture, attention, respect.
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What types of things have you imported from military aviation culture to the leadership and corporate practice?
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Okay, the first thing I always try and emphasize is inside the cockpit is the last place in the world that you want unpredictability.
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So this is a place where the person you re working with, you and he or she have to have such a sense of teamwork that no matter what happens, you know what they re going to do and they know what you re going to do.
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And that is not a bad thing to import into other places.
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The way you do that, of course, is you over communicate and you train together and you over communicate some more and then you train together some more and then you over communicate again.
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And there s a process or sort of a convention that I didn t know before I became an aviator, which is the difference between a procedure and a technique.
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And if I can get into that just real quickly, in all of military, aviation as well, but particularly in aviation.
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There are things that are called procedures, regulations, and they re not optional, and they are not something that you can change on a whim.
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They re consensually arrived at, and they are written down, and they re not something that you can decide on any particular day, I m going to apply the procedure today, but maybe not tomorrow.
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It s a must-do.
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For example, a landing procedure in an airplane has some very specific criteria.
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You enter the downwind at 1,000 feet AGL at a certain airspeed, plus or minus so many knots, and you make a radio call.
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And at the 135-degree mark, you put the gear down, and they have to be locked and indicated by the 90 degrees.
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And you roll out on short final.
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You must have clearance from a tower.
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Those are standardized procedures.
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your shipmate up there in the cockpit always knows that that s what s supposed to happen.
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That s what you re going to do.
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And if something should not happen, for example, if you don t have clearance on the tower on short final, you re not going to mess around.
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You re not going to talk about it.
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You re not going to collaborate.
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You have to go around.
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That s a procedure.
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Now, the way you do all those things is a technique.
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That s your personal way of complying with the procedure.
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So long as you meet the standard.
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So this is where the variance of opinion and innovation and the idea that I can do it a little bit better and a little bit smoother than somebody else comes in.
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And the problem is when people confuse the difference between a procedure and a technique, it is at the base of so many arguments.
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And this applies outside the cockpit, in the workplace, in personal relationships.
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I see it all the time.
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And I always go back to that convention and say, are we arguing about a procedure?
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Or are we arguing about a technique?
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If it s a technique, perhaps it s just the narcissism of small differences.
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This is the way you do it and this is the way I do it.
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But if it s a procedure, then we have to step back a step or two and say, what is our intent here?
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What was our big picture goal?
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Well, in aviation, it s to have as many landings as you do takeoffs and walk away from all of them.
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You don t want to end up in a smoking hole and get famous and get a chow hall named after you.
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You want to make sure that safety is paramount.
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Well, sometimes if you fly with somebody who s got wild ass ideas, their techniques are crazy and they re not complying with procedures.
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So you have to step back and say, hey, your technique is all screwed up.
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It s not complying.
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It s not safe.
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In the civilian world, for example, let me just give you a silly example.
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In your house, do you have a dishwasher in your house?
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Yes.
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Okay.
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Do you ever load the dishwasher?
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I know Jen s your girlfriend because I m a big fan.
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No, I don t.
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Okay.
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Let s say you re married and you have a spouse that shares the dishwasher loading responsibilities with you.
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Do you ever agree on how to do it?
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We don t disagree.
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Okay, well then you might be smart because you ve stepped back and say, okay, the intent is to get the dishes loaded and run it and have clean dishes so we don t have to do it by hand.
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Many people argue about it.
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There s probably a lot of ways to do it.
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It s just that if one person has any particular preference in that area, it s not gonna be me.
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They win, okay.
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Well, there are many people, for example, the married listeners out there may identify with this, who argue they will fight to the death over whether the dishes should all be washed and kind of rinsed and cleaned, or just knock the big food chunks off of it and load it.
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I would argue that that is a argument about technique, not procedure.
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That s kind of a comical, silly example, but in the workplace, some of this stuff can take on some pretty high stakes.
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And the smart person steps back before they get into the middle of this awful food fight and says, okay, what are the procedures first?
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What is our guidance?
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What s written down that tells us what to do?
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And are our varying techniques meeting that criteria?
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Now, what happens sometimes, I do strategic consulting work and I go back and say, okay, show me your procedures.
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How is it that you expect your employees to handle this particular problem?
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We go, nobody can find the procedure.
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It hasn t been seen in 15 years.
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We know it s written somewhere, but they can t find it.
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And I said, well, that s your first problem.
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If you can t write it down, if you can t express it in writing, then it either isn t that important
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or you are seriously off the rails here.
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So let s go back to fundamentals.
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In the military, almost every organization has some sort of inspection every year or two or three, but certainly no more than that.
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Where somebody comes in
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and says, show me your paper, show me that you re keeping these things up, show me that your employees, your workers, the people you re expecting to deliver your product, know what you want out of them.
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I really believe this is true, that I go into companies and I ask questions, fundamental, basic questions about procedure, and people kind of get the deer in the headlights look,
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And then somebody usually from HR says, oh yeah, they re back in the office in those publication bookcase and you go out and you knock the cobwebs off of them and nobody s read them or looked at them.
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They re living on oral history and passed down technique and they can t understand why they re not delivering the product they want.
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That s something that really translates.
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When we get back, I want to talk about precision language habits and why they re necessary and something called leadership dirty work right here on the Art of Charm.
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And we re back with Karen Batesel.
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Do people still call you Captain Batesel, or have you kind of left that in the past?
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I ve kind of left that behind.
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My last few years in the Navy, I had earned the nickname Battleaxe, which has become sort of a brand.
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And so that was mostly what I was called.
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And that s part of the aviation culture.
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If you didn t have a nickname or some sort of moniker, you were probably not one of the cool kids.
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So I never took that personally.
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Yeah, I was gonna say, they called you that to your face, or was this before or after Top Gun, Maverick, and Goose?
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Was that a reflection of military culture, or did that become a part of military culture because of that stuff?
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Well, let me make a quick distinction here for all the jet pilots out there in podcast land.
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Jet pilots have tactical call signs for security reasons around the aircraft carrier.
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Battle Axe was my nickname.
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Everybody in the squadron usually had a nickname.
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In addition, jet pilots had tactical call signs.
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So Goose and Maverick had tactical call signs.
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So the air boss would always know who was in the cockpit without divulging their name over the air.
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I was a helicopter pilot when I was shipboard based, and we just had nicknames along the lines.
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If you were in a fraternity, you probably heard most of them.
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You know, there was always a mad dog and a bonsai and a cheese and all those kind of things that you can figure out where those names came from.
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And mine was Battleaxe.
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Oh, man, you train for years and you end up with cheese as your nickname.
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That sucks.
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Well, it depends on your behavior on liberty.
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Sometimes it has nothing to do with your skill set.
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I wonder what you have to do to earn the nickname Cheese.
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Actually, I don t know.
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I don t know if we can talk about that.
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But tell us about precision language habits, something we mentioned earlier.
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Precision language habits and why they re necessary.
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What is that?
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What does that mean?
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What that means is the cockpit is a place where the words mean what they mean what they mean.
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There s no context that can change their meaning.
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And you don t have to do a whole lot of research into aviation history to realize that many perfectly good airplanes were crashed because pilots didn t do a very good job of talking to one another.
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The most famous one is the Avianca jet that crashed a couple decades ago in Long Island, because even though the crew was from Columbia, they were perfectly fluent English speakers, but they used the wrong word to tell the controllers in New York that they were running out of gas.
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SPEAKER_00
That s an example that you don t say, I need priority handling for fuel.
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SPEAKER_00
That means nothing.
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SPEAKER_00
Everybody wants priority handling when they re going into LaGuardia airspace.
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SPEAKER_00
What he should have said is, I m declaring an emergency for fuel state.
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SPEAKER_00
And he didn t.
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SPEAKER_00
And so he also did not know how to tell his captain, this was a co-pilot on the radio, he didn t know how to tell his captain that he was running out of gas.
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SPEAKER_00
even though they could both see it, perfectly good, fluent English speakers, they use the wrong words.
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SPEAKER_00
And so my point when I hear people talk about body language and only this much percent of the message of a word is this, you know, it s the Moravian stuff from 1967, that 55-38-7 rule, it makes me crazy.
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SPEAKER_00
because there are many places where the words are 100% of the message and the cockpit is one of them.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s important because when you re in a low context environment, like the cockpit, where there s not a lot of subtlety, you have to use the right words, not only so people will understand you, but so they cannot misunderstand you, which are two different things.
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SPEAKER_00
They sound like they re sides of the same coin, and aviation teaches us to be very precise in our language.
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SPEAKER_00
And you re competing on a tactical frequency with other people, other military entities, so you have to be precise.
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SPEAKER_00
The precision and the acuity of the words is critical and I try and share that.
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SPEAKER_00
I do some work trying to help people with their language and their presence and one of the things that I really try and emphasize is pick your words carefully and say them like you mean them and then shut up.
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SPEAKER_03
First of all, it s almost hard to believe a plane would crash and people would die because somebody couldn t say, hey, look at this, double-tap the fuel gauge.
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SPEAKER_03
I just can t even imagine that.
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SPEAKER_03
Hello, we re running out of gas.
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SPEAKER_03
I mean, why didn t they just say that?
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SPEAKER_03
That seems mind-blowing to me.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, the idea of cockpit resource management was instituted in aviation, both military aviation and commercial aviation, because of the hierarchy in the cockpit.
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SPEAKER_00
It used to be, in the old days, that the captain of an aircraft was like the captain of a ship.
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SPEAKER_00
He was God.
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His decisions were never questioned.
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SPEAKER_00
The first officers or first officer and flight engineer, depending on the configuration, took orders, kept their mouth shut and did what the captain told them.
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SPEAKER_00
There s some anecdotal stories, I ll just share one of them, and this is civilian, where the captain was flying a leg into Mexico City, which has a very long parallel taxiway to the runway.
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SPEAKER_00
And earlier in the flight, he had been kind of a jerk to the first officer, and he said, you keep your mouth shut over there, do what I tell you, if I have any questions out of you, I ll ask you, and that s it.
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SPEAKER_00
So the co-pilot let him line up on the taxiway and land on the taxiway.
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knowing full well that he was doing it.
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SPEAKER_00
So we knew in aviation, and there are military examples of stories along that line of poor communication, even though lives are at stake, the individual s lives are at stake, didn t know how to talk to one another.
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SPEAKER_00
So in the cockpit,
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SPEAKER_00
There s always some sort of convention.
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SPEAKER_00
It varies from industry and company to company and service to service and community to community within aviation.
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SPEAKER_00
But there s some sort of language that s meant to say, we re in trouble here.
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SPEAKER_00
And everybody is now trained that when they hear, for example, this code word,
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SPEAKER_00
they know that something is going seriously awry rather than have this, for lack of a better word, pissing contest in the cockpit where a martinet of a captain is bullying his first officer and flight engineer and endangering the safe and orderly conduct of the flight.
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SPEAKER_00
So, for example, one term is, in the interest of form training, form being an acronym for flight operational readiness management.
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SPEAKER_00
So in the interest of form training, Captain, I m advising you that our fuel state is now at divert level, meaning we have to go to another airfield.
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SPEAKER_00
We can t continue on.
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SPEAKER_00
In the interest of form training, you are not in configuration to land this aircraft.
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SPEAKER_00
That tells each person that I need to stop what I m doing and execute the procedure because this is not working.
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SPEAKER_00
Surprisingly enough, this industry had to kill people to figure out that people need to communicate that way with one another.
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SPEAKER_03
This is like a safe word.
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SPEAKER_00
It is.
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SPEAKER_00
That s exactly right.
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SPEAKER_00
Think of it that way.
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SPEAKER_00
In another context, yes.
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SPEAKER_00
Right.
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SPEAKER_00
It s your safe word.
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SPEAKER_00
We re in trouble here.
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SPEAKER_03
In the interest of forum training, it s kind of like, translates roughly to all this ego bullshit aside, you need to listen right now because this is critical.
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SPEAKER_00
That s exactly what it means.
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SPEAKER_03
Yell at me later, but we re gonna crash if you don t listen.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we ll argue about this all you want on the ground.
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SPEAKER_00
But right now, I m telling you, we re in trouble here.
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SPEAKER_00
And we used to have a joke.
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SPEAKER_00
One of the jokes was, gee, Captain, I wonder why those mountain goats are up in the clouds, right?
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SPEAKER_00
You know, that s kind of the code word for we re getting ready to run into the side of a mountain because I see goats.
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SPEAKER_03
Oh, God.
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SPEAKER_03
What is the leadership dirty work that you reference as well?
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SPEAKER_03
I mean, it seems like we just talked about almost like dirty work going upwards with the form training, safe word.
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SPEAKER_03
What is leadership dirty work where leaders have less than desirable positions given that they ve got to make a tough call or something like that?
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SPEAKER_00
Well, one of the things that I spend a lot of time when I work with leaders is
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SPEAKER_00
helping them understand or disabuse them of the notion, which is actually advocated by some leadership coaches, that one of your jobs is to keep everybody happy and engaged at all times.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think that is just the biggest bunch of bovine sewage that s ever been shoveled.
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SPEAKER_00
Because if you are doing your job as a leader, and you are doing your mission of any consequence,
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SPEAKER_00
it is not possible to keep everybody happy.
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SPEAKER_00
And if you try and do that, Colin Powell once said famously, the quickest way to mediocrity is to please everybody.
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SPEAKER_00
And leaders, I think this happens more to young leaders, perhaps, that are inexperienced, and they re wielding their first authority.
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SPEAKER_00
They try and keep everybody happy.
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SPEAKER_00
But there are times when as a leader,
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SPEAKER_00
you have to do what I call the dirty work of leadership.
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SPEAKER_00
If you weren t the leader, you wouldn t have to make the decision.
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SPEAKER_00
For example, let s say you re managing a project in the civilian world and you re over hours and over budget and somebody s hours are going to get cut or you re going to have to lay somebody off.
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SPEAKER_00
It s not possible for you to make everybody happy in that circumstance, but you still have to do your duty.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think we need to tell people and shape people s expectations of being a leader from time to time is going to require that.
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SPEAKER_00
And that s what a good leader does.
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SPEAKER_00
Sometimes they have to make the hard call and people are going to be unhappy.
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SPEAKER_00
Now, you do it with sensitivity and you ve communicated and there are ways to do it well, but there s really no honest way to avoid it.
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SPEAKER_00
If you re not doing the dirty work, two things are happening.
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SPEAKER_00
One of two things are happening.
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SPEAKER_00
First, it s not getting done at all, which means you re failing your duty to your boss or somebody else is doing it for you.
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SPEAKER_00
And that s not fair.
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SPEAKER_00
If it s your job, you ought to be doing it.
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SPEAKER_00
You can t delegate your dirty work to other people, not if you re a good leader.
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SPEAKER_00
And the military prepares you to make the hard calls.
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SPEAKER_00
and it prepares your followers to accept the fact that sometimes they don t see the full game board and their leader has to make a decision and they re going to have to take an order and move on.
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SPEAKER_00
I think we do that better than probably any institution around.
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SPEAKER_00
And I like to share those principles and kind of the framework of how to do that.
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SPEAKER_00
You don t do it overnight.
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SPEAKER_00
You set a very careful groundwork.
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SPEAKER_00
So your followers trust you.
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SPEAKER_00
If you are a follower, you trust your leaders that they are going to do their duty.
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SPEAKER_00
They re going to make the right cause.
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SPEAKER_00
They re going to put the mission first and their people always, which might sound like a cheesy tagline, but it s really a great philosophy.
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SPEAKER_01
What is some of that hard call making preparation?
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SPEAKER_01
How does the military prepare people to make hard calls?
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SPEAKER_01
What might that training look like?
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SPEAKER_00
For one thing, you start out as a leader by always telling people who you are and what you re about, and that you re dedicated to your mission, but you care about them.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s not just that I care about you in a care bearer s sort of way, but I care about you, your development, your security and safety, especially if you re in an operational environment where those sorts of things are in question, and I care about what happens to you.
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SPEAKER_00
but make no mistake, we re dedicated to our mission.
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SPEAKER_00
And you over-communicate that.
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SPEAKER_00
And you put yourself last in the taking care of people scenario.
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SPEAKER_00
I think there s a book out now called Leaders Eat Last.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, let me tell you, we were doing that long before anybody wrote a book about it.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, we had Simon Sinekoff.
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SPEAKER_00
always sends that preparation that this person will take care of me when they can.
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SPEAKER_00
And they will say yes, every time they can, they will take care of me as a leader.
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SPEAKER_00
And when the time comes that they asked me to do the hard thing,
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SPEAKER_00
I know that I can trust them.
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SPEAKER_00
I ll give you an example from my life.
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SPEAKER_00
When I was transferring between duty stations, you always burn a couple of days or weeks of leave depending on how far you have to travel, if you travel around the world to a new duty station.
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SPEAKER_00
And I arrived on a Labor Day weekend, on the Friday before Labor Day weekend, the whole squadron would have Saturday, Sunday and Monday off.
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SPEAKER_00
before coming back to work on Tuesday.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, I was just gonna burn leave days and show up at my due duty station on Tuesday.
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SPEAKER_00
The guy who I was coming to work for, and this was before the days of the internet and cell phones, just to, you know, the earth had just cooled and the dinosaurs had just died.
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SPEAKER_01
Right.
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SPEAKER_00
The guy who I was coming to work for called the phone company, chased down my new landline number, called me at home.
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SPEAKER_00
I d never met this guy, never met him.
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SPEAKER_00
And he said, hey, I m your new officer in charge.
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SPEAKER_00
I see you re reporting to the squadron on Tuesday.
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SPEAKER_00
I said, yep.
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SPEAKER_00
He goes, I m going to check in today so you don t burn four extra days of leave before you get here.
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SPEAKER_00
Because we re all going to be off.
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SPEAKER_00
If you were here, you d have the days off without burning leave days.
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SPEAKER_00
The equivalent would be burning vacation days in civilian world.
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SPEAKER_01
Sure.
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SPEAKER_00
Do you know what kind of loyalty that bought me for that guy?
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SPEAKER_01
I can imagine, he just gave you an extra week of vacation, practically.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I d take a bullet for him.
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SPEAKER_00
Now, he didn t have to do any of that.
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SPEAKER_00
And I would have never walked in thinking he owed me that, or I never thought to do it at all.
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SPEAKER_00
But he went the extra mile.
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SPEAKER_00
So when he called me up and said, look, you re going to have to fly on Christmas Eve, or you re going to have to fly on Easter, or you re going to have to fly over the weekend when everybody else is off, I was happy to do it.
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SPEAKER_00
Because I know whenever he could, he took care of me.
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SPEAKER_00
That s the thing that a leader does, is set up for when you have to make harder calls.
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SPEAKER_01
So you sort of build almost what we would call social capital at the Art of Charm.
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SPEAKER_00
That s exactly what it is.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, interesting.
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SPEAKER_00
It is social capital, but it s connective tissue in a military organization, and there s no line item for it in the budget, but I will tell you it is a force multiplier when it comes to getting the job done, because people will go so far
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SPEAKER_00
beyond what s the minimum expected of them.
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SPEAKER_00
You know, this idea of engagement, which is kind of a civilian world that s kicked around employee engagement.
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SPEAKER_00
Good military leaders knew long ago how to get engagement out of their people.
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SPEAKER_00
And it wasn t just, you know, we had signed a contract that our heart and soul and body were owned for years and years.
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SPEAKER_00
There was real devotion, a leadership devotion.
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SPEAKER_00
And when the time comes to make the hard calls, if you ve built that social capital, to use the art of charm word, it s easier to do.
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SPEAKER_01
Alright, when we get back, I wanna hear a little bit more about leadership practice, and of course, training and military mindset that goes into creating these great leaders, right here on The Art of Charm.
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SPEAKER_01
We re back with Captain Karen Batesel, just to keep your title up for another few minutes.
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SPEAKER_01
I would love to hear the difference between the way the military looks at training and the way that the civilian world looks at training, because running a training company myself, Art of Charm, we get tons of military, we get a lot of special forces, we get a lot of aviators, officers, and enlisted, of course, and there s a huge difference between how civilians that come through the Art of Charm look at the training and how the military does, and what I ve noticed
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SPEAKER_01
as a little bit of a spoiler here, is the military guys, no matter how experienced, no matter how elite, especially with the special forces and intelligence guys, they look at the training and they go, I can t wait to do this, this is great, this is top of my list, it s such an honor to be able to do something like this.
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SPEAKER_01
And when we talk to civilians, especially guys, they do things like, ah, I don t know how to tell my family about this, I wish I didn t need this, I don t want to tell anybody I m going there, and I just think,
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SPEAKER_01
but there s a completely different outlook on what training means, what it means to undergo training, and the opportunity of training versus almost like civilians look at it almost like a punishment.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay, well let me start out with here s the rule of thumb in the military to get promoted.
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SPEAKER_00
Go to all the schools and go to all the wars.
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SPEAKER_00
There you go.
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SPEAKER_01
Okay.
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SPEAKER_00
So going to all the schools is a feather in a military member s cap.
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SPEAKER_00
Schooling, lifelong schooling, career-long schooling is considered an honor.
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SPEAKER_00
So that is probably one of the great things that we inculcate in people.
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SPEAKER_00
And there s no shame in being untrained.
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SPEAKER_00
We operate from the premise first that everybody is trainable.
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SPEAKER_00
Nobody is untrainable.
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SPEAKER_00
Now, there may be some exceptions where we actually recruit some folks that, for the convenience of the government, they re just not adaptable, but I would say that s more a matter of adaptation than training.
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SPEAKER_01
Right, so when they say, oh, you know, we don t want this person because he has flat feet, which I don t think is a thing anymore, it s more like, look,
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SPEAKER_01
he would require so much extra training slash the training would cause so many other difficulties that he s less desirable than somebody.
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SPEAKER_01
But not necessarily that that person s unable to be trained, just that there s an extra staircase that people would have to take, let s put him somewhere else.
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SPEAKER_00
Right.
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SPEAKER_00
And there s always an element of time for time on task.
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SPEAKER_00
You have to get to a certain level of competence to move on.
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SPEAKER_00
So most of the time when somebody is unadaptable, which usually let s just say they cannot adapt to a military environment.
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SPEAKER_00
They thought they could, but they can t, you know, they re crying, they re emotional or psychological messes.
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SPEAKER_00
That s not the person I m talking about.
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SPEAKER_00
I m talking about the average kid or somebody like me, a working class kid from a widowed
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SPEAKER_00
single family home raised by my dad and my sister and family friends.
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SPEAKER_00
I joined the military as an escape and the recruiter said, well, what do you want to do in the Navy?
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SPEAKER_00
And I said, I want you to get me as far away from here as you can.
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SPEAKER_00
And he said, well, I can do that.
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SPEAKER_00
That was the level of aspiration in terms of my occupation that I had when I signed up for four years.
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SPEAKER_00
And then I ended up staying for 30 because I realized that having no clear direction and not being really trained in anything military was nothing.
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SPEAKER_00
That was not a problem because the military was going to teach me everything I needed to know.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s often said, for example, in flight school, where there s at least when I went through, there was about a 30 to 40% attrition rate of people that got kicked out.
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SPEAKER_00
Nobody got kicked out that was still trying.
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SPEAKER_00
because anybody is trainable in the military model.
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SPEAKER_00
We have this convention that the working assumption, everybody s trainable.
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SPEAKER_00
And that s why it s transformational.
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SPEAKER_00
That s why I transformed my life.
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SPEAKER_00
That s why my four-year hitch turned into 30.
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SPEAKER_00
Because every time I had the opportunity,
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SPEAKER_00
I was getting trained to do something else, something cool.
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SPEAKER_00
I was being pushed.
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SPEAKER_00
And it wasn t just, okay, now you re going to learn how to do this.
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SPEAKER_00
Now you re going to learn how to fly a helicopter.
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SPEAKER_00
Now you re going to learn how to land it on the ship.
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SPEAKER_00
Now you re going to go be a college professor.
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SPEAKER_00
Now you re going to go fly a fixed wing aircraft.
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SPEAKER_00
Now you re going to go back and get a graduate degree on your own.
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SPEAKER_00
Now you re going to go be a commanding officer.
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SPEAKER_00
You re always being trained.
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SPEAKER_00
Every one of those things had schools involved in it.
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SPEAKER_00
The military model is, it s no shame to go to school, it s a privilege, it s a pleasure, and you compete for it.
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SPEAKER_00
You re expected to stay current and proficient, and you re supposed to master everything that s thrown your way, because American taxpayers are investing a lot of money in us, and we owe them that.
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SPEAKER_00
This is not optional.
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SPEAKER_00
You re not allowed to go there and give a half-hearted effort.
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SPEAKER_00
You re supposed to give it everything you got.
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SPEAKER_00
And I like that, and it s contagious.
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SPEAKER_01
I think that s a great convention and way to organize the people s thinking, as you had mentioned before.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, if we can assume that with enough work, you can master pretty much anything, and then protect that skillset that you learn, I mean, what if everybody thought like that, and not only in business, but even in their personal life?
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SPEAKER_01
What if we had to requalify in our relationships, in our marriage,
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, how about it?
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SPEAKER_00
How about if you had to go on a check ride as a boyfriend or a husband or a wife?
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SPEAKER_01
It s kind of a scary thought.
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SPEAKER_00
You might sharpen up your game a little.
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SPEAKER_00
When I worked in the corporate world, I worked in a consulting firm, kind of a boutique consulting firm, and it was an at-will employment arrangement.
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SPEAKER_00
And I was perfectly content with that.
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SPEAKER_00
I never lost a moment s sleep over the fact that at any time my work was not satisfactory, that I could be called into the office and had one of those conversations where the bus is going this way and you re not on it.
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SPEAKER_00
Because I lived 30 years trying to be better every day at what I was doing.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think that s just great energy to bring to anything, whether it s your personal life, your professional life.
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SPEAKER_00
If you re starting your own business, it better starts now, you know, not to steal the watch commercial and Eli Manning s words.
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SPEAKER_00
It does.
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SPEAKER_00
That s another thing that we ve always thought that in uniform.
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SPEAKER_00
And any veteran will tell you that, you know, not everybody stays for 30 years, but no matter how long you stayed in uniform, it was a transformational experience.
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SPEAKER_01
Well, thanks so much for your service all 30 years of it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Thank you, taxpayers.
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SPEAKER_00
I got more out of this country than I ever gave it.
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SPEAKER_00
I don t mean that to be cheesy or schmaltzy or sentimental.
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SPEAKER_00
I feel like I was given one of the greatest privileges in the world.
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SPEAKER_00
It s a great time to be an American and it s a great time to be a woman.
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SPEAKER_00
And I cashed in on both.
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SPEAKER_00
It was a lottery ticket.
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SPEAKER_01
Is there anything else that you wish civilians knew about leadership and service that you want to leave us with?
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SPEAKER_00
Yes, I would.
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SPEAKER_00
The latest numbers are something like 93% of Americans have not served in uniform, but their service as taxpayers, we have a system that allows us to have the sort of military that we have that has
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SPEAKER_00
more lethality and dominates the spectrum greater than any military force in history.
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SPEAKER_00
And we use it with such restraint because we have a system that works.
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SPEAKER_00
And the system depends on the citizens, not the schmucks like me that are in uniform.
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SPEAKER_00
Love you guys out there and veterans, girls and guys, but it s the citizens that make our military great.
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SPEAKER_00
And we always work for them.
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SPEAKER_00
And of the 22 million of us out there,
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SPEAKER_00
We all have different stories.
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SPEAKER_00
If you know one veteran, if you ve heard one veteran s story, you ve heard one veteran s story.
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SPEAKER_00
So talk to all of them.
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SPEAKER_00
Take what you see in movies with a grain of salt and go talk to your uncle who served in Vietnam.
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SPEAKER_00
or your grandpa who might have been in Korea, or your next door neighbor, the kid down at Best Buy who just got back from a hitch in Afghanistan.
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SPEAKER_00
Because the stories are compelling and there s so much to share that it can t be captured in one person s dialogue, no matter how articulate it is.
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SPEAKER_00
It s still one person s story.
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SPEAKER_00
So I hope the American people, number one, know how much we appreciate them.
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SPEAKER_00
And I invite you to talk to all of us.
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SPEAKER_01
You know, it s funny you should mention that real quick.
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SPEAKER_01
One sort of pro tip that I ve come across in the last few years of doing the Art of Charm and running it is I recently went to a wedding and they left me at home with the bride s family and it was a few really, really older people.
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SPEAKER_01
her parents and the parents left to go to the store or something so I m sitting there with like my suit with her grandfather who was I don t know 94 maybe or something I mean he was up there and they were like just don t say anything you can just you know screw on your phone for 45 minutes he doesn t like anyone don t take it personally he might yell at you or ignore you or whatever and I was like well
4
SPEAKER_01
I see one of those hats that you get when you served on an aircraft carrier or a boat or something, where it s like USS whatever, and it s just, you know what I m talking about, right?
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SPEAKER_01
And you probably have something like that.
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SPEAKER_01
I do.
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SPEAKER_01
I asked him about it, and he turned off the TV for probably the first time in two decades, and he wouldn t stop talking.
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SPEAKER_01
I didn t even realize he could talk as well as he could, because he d only grunted a few times in the last two days that I was there.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean he had a walker and a kind of a cane deal and we went into his room and he had all these pictures and he showed me how he met his wife and he told me how they met and he had pictures of him and his servicemen on these boats and I can t remember if it was an Iwo Jima or something like that and he had stories galore and when the family came back and saw us sitting at the table drinking tea and chatting they were floored because he probably hadn t spoken that much in
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20 years.
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So veterans want to talk about this stuff, at least some of the ones that I ve come across.
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And the older ones, they can t wait to tell you because nobody s cared in 30 years.
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That is very true.
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And he ain t going to be around forever.
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Your ability to hear his story might be one of the few people that hears it if it s not captured somewhere.
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So God bless you for that and taking the time to listen to him.
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Very cool.
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I think those guys have really interesting stories.
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I mean, don t get me wrong, modern day vets as well, it s just that I think it s almost like too soon to hear about the horrors of Iraq and Afghanistan and things like that, but when you hear about World War II, we re sufficiently removed by generations where the only thing I know about Iwo Jima is the guys holding up the flag, right, on that famous statue.
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I think you re 100% right because World War II, the entire country was at war.
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Post 9-11, that isn t how it s been.
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It s been much more clinical and surgical, but those stories, not just the old guys, but the old women too, are amazing, amazing stories.
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Thank you so much, Karen.
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This has been really excellent, inspiring and very, very fun.
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Good, good, good.
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There s a lot in there, and I really like the way that she was able to weave the practicals of de-griefing, procedure versus technique talk.
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At first when I saw that in our show prep, I was not excited about that particularly, but I definitely see how this is actually probably one of the most important concepts in the show, and of course the old goats in the clouds.
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communication with superiors can come in handy for pretty much every business and everybody who has to communicate with people where egos get in the way, which is, as far as I know, every single human relationship ever.
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So I hope you all enjoyed that as much as I did.
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She is on Twitter.
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We re on Twitter.
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I m at The Art of Charm.
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We ll have her linked in the show notes as well as other resources she s mentioned in the show as well as her website.
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Our advertisers, our sponsors are also at theartofcharm.com slash advertisers.
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I d also like to encourage you to join our social capital challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
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We ve got a lot of practical exercises, drills.
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I m doing regular video drills and exercises to help you move forward every single week.
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And we ll email you our fundamentals toolbox.
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We ve got nonverbal communication and body language, networking, persuasion, public speaking, a whole lot more.
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It s gonna make you a better connector, better at relationships, better at networking,
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all of the above.
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That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed to 33444.
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This episode was produced by Jason.
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with Phillipo, Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
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Show notes on the website are by Robert Fogarty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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This is the Art of Charm.
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Go ahead and tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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Now stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.