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You have to think pessimistically.
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The reason things worked is because further upstream, I and Dave were worried about whether it was going to work or not.
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And we corrected it or we made it good.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm, I m your host Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re talking with comedian Neil Brennan.
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He s a comedy writer and co-creator of The Chappelle Show.
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We re going to talk about the comedy writing process and how it mirrors real life.
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A mindset to get a more realistic handle on the potential outcome of a given project or situation.
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and help you prepare and plan for the worst, and some tips on getting happy from a guy who s tried everything, and why achievement can t be a substitute for happiness.
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Enjoy this episode with Neil Brennan, and by the way, if you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the AOC toolbox.
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That s where we discuss concepts like reading body language and having charismatic nonverbal communication.
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We also talk about the science of attraction, negotiation techniques, social engineering, networking and influence strategies, mentorship, persuasion tactics, and everything else that we teach here at The Art of Charm.
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Check that out at theartofcharm.com slash toolbox or in our iPhone app at theartofcharm.com slash iPhone.
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Also at theartofcharm.com you can find the full show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show.
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We re glad to have you with us here today at AOC.
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Enjoy this episode with Neil Brennan.
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My friend recommended three mics on Netflix, and he s like, have you heard of this Neil Brennan guy?
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Of course, I don t know anybody s names that I m not familiar with.
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And so I turn it on, and I m like, alright.
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And the first thing I see is you re holding these note cards on the mic.
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That my first thought was, what the hell, you ve gotta have this memorized already.
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What s the problem?
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So what was that all about?
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, why did I do notes?
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Because if I didn t do notes on that mic, it wouldn t have been different enough from the other mic.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, I see, so it has to be like... I just needed to differentiate it.
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SPEAKER_00
Like a different energy type deal?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Gotcha.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay, cool.
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Because I felt like, where is this weird crutch coming from?
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It s like when someone gives a keynote but they have their notes on their phone, you re like, what are you doing?
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I ve seen you do this a hundred times.
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SPEAKER_00
Most comedy really is the same a lot.
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I mean, the delivery s pretty similar, except for the person s personality s different, like you got your Gabriel Iglesias or whatever type guys, but this is a lot different.
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The three mics format is different.
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Can you tell us a little bit about what that is?
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It s basically, so there s three mics on stage, spaced out, equidistant from each other, so I just alternate mics basically three times.
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One s for one-liners, I just do like three or four one-liners.
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One is for stand-up, like conventional stand-up, and then one mic is for emotional stories.
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And then I just kind of go, I do 10 minutes of stand-up, or 12 minutes of stand-up, then I do eight minutes of stories, and I do two minutes of one-liners, and then I just repeat.
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Why the break in format from just like, all right, I have funny stuff, I m gonna go up and deliver it?
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There s so many hours now.
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There s so many stand-up hours, like, it s really, really difficult to stand out.
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And the people that do stand out usually stand out because they have their own TV show.
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Or they did a roast, or they did something that was like, sort of got them a lot of attention, then people go, oh, he does stand-up, I ll watch it.
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So I knew I didn t have a TV show, and there was stuff I wanted to talk about that I knew people found interesting, and I wanted to talk about it on stage.
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And I always had that idea, so I figured it out.
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How do you know someone s gonna find that stuff, or how do you even hypothesize someone s gonna find that stuff interesting?
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Because I ve talked about it on podcasts, and everyone says that s really interesting.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s the good stuff.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, well, that s not the good stuff.
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Comedians have sort of led the movement of being revealing off stage, so to speak, on podcasts mostly.
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And I would watch my friends do stuff, and if they ever got upset or choked up, I was always like, that s so much more interesting to me than just another person doing stand-up, giving a glib, well-thought-out recital of their material.
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That they ve rehearsed, yeah, a hundred times.
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Look, stand-up is the best.
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It s better than any movie to me, it s better than any TV show, it s the best.
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But, there s times where it s like, A, I don t want to watch it for an hour, sort of one note.
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B, great stand-up s rare.
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So, I just wanted to do a different thing.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and done.
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When I saw it, I thought like, why do people recommend this one-liners with the note cards?
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Like, who is this guy?
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And then I was like, I don t care what TV show he wrote that I liked before.
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Like, this doesn t make any sense.
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What did this guy contribute?
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By the way, the one-liners took 40 seconds.
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All this happened in 40 seconds.
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You had this deep of a spin-out.
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SPEAKER_00
Fuck this guy.
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SPEAKER_00
I watched it like three times, and yeah, I probably did because when somebody recommends something, I m like, am I gonna sit down and watch this for an hour?
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SPEAKER_00
And you know, I thought your shtick maybe was, I m gonna pretend I m really putsy in front of the mic and that I don t have good delivery or something, and I was like, oh wait, actually, these are funny.
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And then you went into some deeper stuff, and I thought, okay, oh, that part wasn t supposed to be totally funny.
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SPEAKER_00
I see what you re doing here, because I didn t read the premise of three mics before I watched it.
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I just turned on, I just thought, alrighty, thank you for
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the same reason somebody calls it fluffy, right, like whatever.
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There s gonna be a three mics joke at the end.
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So you re talking about growing up in Philadelphia, Irish Catholic, as my friend Caleb Bacon says, your family was a little dysfunctional, so dysfunctional that it produced two stand-up comics, not just one.
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And that s really saying something.
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Highly unusual situation.
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Were you funny when you were younger, like when you were a kid?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I was always pretty funny.
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I was like, you know, cute.
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I was the youngest, so it was like, I was sort of precocious and I was funny, yeah.
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Was there a time where you realized, like, I can do this standup thing, this funny thing, like, I got this, I should do this?
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There was no moment, per se.
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My brother was a comedian when I was in high school.
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I was like, oh, okay, so I knew, I got to spend time when I was in high school with Dave Attell and Ray Romano and guys like that that were friends with my brother.
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It was before they were famous, but I knew, I got to see them do stand-up, they were great.
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I got to hang at a comedy club, so I just sort of wanted to do it, and then I was funny around my friends.
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SPEAKER_01
Did you ever think, I m funnier than my brother, I should probably get into this?
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SPEAKER_01
No, I never.
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No, truly will not play that game, because I know that there s just as many people saying to him, you re funnier than Neil, so it s like, I m just not even gonna do it.
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SPEAKER_00
It s always a matter of taste, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
It doesn t do any good, there s nothing there.
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SPEAKER_00
I m not trying to bait you into dissing your brother either.
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I just figured like, some comics, they go, well, you know, I saw other people doing it and I just thought, that timing thing, like I can do that, I can mimic that, or I get the same reaction among my friends, or among strangers, which is more important, obviously, than your friends.
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So he got you a job working the door at a club,
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Was it Boston, or YC?
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SPEAKER_01
It was in New York, but it was called the Boston Comedy Club.
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SPEAKER_01
Okay, that s a little confusing.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because they wanted to make sure no one went.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it was Boston Comedy Club, and yeah, so I was going to NYU for film school, and working the door at the comedy club, and then eventually I was like, I liked the comedy club more than I liked film school.
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I m more nocturnal.
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I figured like, let me just work there and did.
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SPEAKER_01
And it was, you know, like I said, Mattel, Romano, Jon Stewart, Chappelle, a lot of really great comic, Louis CK before he was famous.
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SPEAKER_01
So all these people before they were famous, these were like kindred spirits, way more than film students.
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SPEAKER_00
Actually, how did you start and keep those relationships?
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, you see the guys there all the time, but there s a lot of people that work in comedy clubs that don t throw jokes at the comics, that don t try to create relationships, that don t end up being or staying friends with these guys.
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Oh yeah, that s a good question.
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I certainly was like, I felt an affinity for them.
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I would strike up conversations with them.
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I would, you just said, I would pitch them jokes.
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SPEAKER_01
I didn t pitch a ton of people jokes, but Jay Moore, like we were roommates.
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He did a joke a month.
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SPEAKER_01
Chappelle did a joke.
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I was useful in a way, like to them.
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Me and Chappelle were like same age, like we got along really well.
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So I didn t necessarily see it as networking per se.
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SPEAKER_01
I guess it was networking, but I didn t think of it that way.
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SPEAKER_00
Sure, I think most people who are good at networking and relationship development don t think of it as networking because the people that think of it as networking are... It s too obvious.
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SPEAKER_01
They re like, hey buddy.
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Hey, can I give you a card?
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SPEAKER_01
And it s like, no.
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SPEAKER_01
Let me know when you need a financial manager.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I have people often saying like, hey,
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I m a, I am a tricky meeting.
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SPEAKER_01
Can I send you a link for my, it sent me a link.
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Can you watch my five minutes?
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And I was like, no, thank you.
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SPEAKER_01
People see me or somebody doing better than them in showbiz or doing well as an opportunity.
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And it s like, once you feel like an opportunity, you re going to shut off.
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SPEAKER_00
That s an interesting point that I hadn t really thought of.
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SPEAKER_00
People send me their stuff all the time, like, hey, can you read my book?
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SPEAKER_00
And I m like, one, no, and two, even if I did, I don t know what useful input I m gonna have, because I do my thing totally different than you should do yours.
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Or even like, listen to an episode of my podcast, it s only half an hour long, or even if it s only like 10 minutes long, my feedback would be like, yeah, talk closer to the mic, or I don t know.
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SPEAKER_01
If you re good, it ll get to me.
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Do you know what I mean?
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Like, if you re good at something, somebody will tell me, like, did you see this thing or whatever.
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Like, you don t wanna jump the gun.
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People send me scripts, whatever.
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I have scripts that are written by professionals that they want me to do that I don t read.
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That I just don t have time or interest.
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So if someone says, I m an amateur, read this, it s like, dude, okay, this is your one opportunity.
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You wanna waste it on this?
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SPEAKER_01
Like, you sure you re not gonna get any better?
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SPEAKER_01
Like, because guess what?
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SPEAKER_01
If I don t like this, I m not reading anything else you ever send me.
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SPEAKER_01
For your entire life?
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SPEAKER_01
For the rest of your life until you die.
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SPEAKER_01
No, but you know what I mean?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I do know what you mean.
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SPEAKER_01
You need to be smart about, you know, people that make online videos.
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SPEAKER_01
hey, you don t have to put them all on YouTube.
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SPEAKER_01
Make five of them, show them to your friends, and the best one put on YouTube.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, good point.
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SPEAKER_01
Whereas everyone s like, go to my page and do it.
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SPEAKER_01
It s like, dude, if I watch one and it stinks, I m not gonna keep watching.
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SPEAKER_01
It s over.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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I m saying that as like a guy that people want to see as an opportunity, but that s also the audience s take.
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SPEAKER_01
Like, you were mad at the one-liners.
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SPEAKER_01
There s three one-liners.
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SPEAKER_00
I wasn t even mad, I just thought if the remote were closer, I would be like, I m gonna lower the volume, but not turn it up.
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SPEAKER_00
Actually, if my friend hadn t recommended it,
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SPEAKER_00
I probably would never have turned it on.
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SPEAKER_00
I didn t know who you were.
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SPEAKER_00
And so I do watch some comedy, but I like to watch it live.
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SPEAKER_00
I don t care about Netflix unless it s like I ll go and look at Roy Wood Jr.
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SPEAKER_00
because he s a friend of mine.
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SPEAKER_00
I m like, hey, you got a new thing?
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SPEAKER_00
I m going to support you and I ll watch it.
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SPEAKER_00
And even if it s not funny, I ll probably still tell you I watched it and I really enjoyed it, which it was funny.
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SPEAKER_00
Gabriel, my buddy, goes, look, it s really funny, and there s stuff in there that you ll like.
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SPEAKER_00
And I was like, I assume he s not talking about the first three lines of your thing, of your special.
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SPEAKER_00
So I gave it more of a chance.
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SPEAKER_00
But I think about my show in the same way.
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SPEAKER_00
My show s obviously not that funny and totally different.
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SPEAKER_00
I put stuff in there, and if I record something, and it just doesn t go that well, I go, I can t put that in my feed.
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SPEAKER_00
And my tip for new podcasters is, if you don t think, damn, that was good, don t put it in your feed, because even if you re on episode 400,
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SPEAKER_00
there s people who are gonna go, I ll just check out that show you recommended, and that s the first encounter that they have with you, and they re like, that Jordan guy just tried to be funny for 40 minutes, what a dipshit, I can t believe people like this, who is this person?
1
SPEAKER_00
And you see that in your iTunes reviews.
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SPEAKER_00
You ll put up something and you re not that proud of it, and like a week later it s like, this show sucks, why is everyone recommending it?
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SPEAKER_00
And you re like, you heard the episode I did with that one guy, didn t you?
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SPEAKER_00
Fuck.
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SPEAKER_00
and it s not worth it.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s not worth doing that to people that you think might become connections later, even if you re not even thinking about that at the time, it might do well to realize that in business or in any craft that you do, you re always communicating, you re always creating a relationship, or you re warning people not to do that.
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SPEAKER_01
There s also, the thing that people don t realize is like, there s nothing in it for me.
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Meaning, helping you, I always tell people like, I didn t move to LA to do your shit.
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SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
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SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, good point.
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SPEAKER_01
I didn t think about that.
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SPEAKER_01
Like I moved out here to do my shit.
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SPEAKER_01
I didn t move out here to like, and then hopefully somebody will just call me and I moved out here because I have my own goals and my own like ideas that I want to get done.
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SPEAKER_01
Most people will help you if they think if it s mutual, if there s a mutual benefit to it.
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SPEAKER_01
That worked out for me.
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SPEAKER_01
It s like Jay took a joke from my notebook.
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SPEAKER_01
I pitched a joke to Dave.
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SPEAKER_01
So then when these guys started getting TV opportunities,
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SPEAKER_01
They were like, well, who can help me?
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SPEAKER_01
Who writes things that I like?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
I ve made a lot of money off of helping people for no reason other than the love of the game.
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SPEAKER_01
Like other than like my just Dave had an idea and I was like, Hey, do this.
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SPEAKER_01
And then, and then that snowballs into half baked, snowballs into spell show, snowballs into everything I ve ever done.
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SPEAKER_01
Like Schumer,
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SPEAKER_01
Schumer before Schumer had a show, she was doing the roast and she asked, we were friends.
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SPEAKER_01
He was like, can you help me with the roast thing?
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SPEAKER_01
I don t even think I, she used anything I pitched and then she gets a show.
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SPEAKER_01
She asked me to direct it.
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SPEAKER_01
Then she does a Bud Light campaign with Seth Rogen and I don t even like those Bud Light, but whatever.
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SPEAKER_01
So, so, but it s on the Superbowl and it s a big spectacular thing.
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SPEAKER_01
So it s like, and I got work with Seth and Evan and I like those guys.
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SPEAKER_01
No one s gonna help you in a way that s not beneficial to them in some way.
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SPEAKER_00
We call it not keeping score, and we call it giving generously for the obvious reason that you re giving generously, and you re also not expecting anything necessarily in return.
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SPEAKER_00
You re giving generously like, look, I got this thing that maybe you can use.
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SPEAKER_00
You re not thinking like, if he uses that, I am fucking money, right?
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SPEAKER_00
You re thinking like, if he uses that, that s cool, and then eventually, you re not thinking like, I gave Jay a joke, so where s my comeback?
1
SPEAKER_01
this was like in the 90s, so I knew that Larry David had sort of knew Jerry Seinfeld from comedy clubs, and then Jerry Seinfeld was like, hey, I ve got this sitcom, you wanna work on it with me?
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SPEAKER_01
So I knew that that was a thing that happened, and I wanted to work with Dave, like I always felt like we could do good stuff together, but.
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SPEAKER_01
Dave Chappelle, yeah, okay.
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SPEAKER_01
But there was a, not even altruism, it was just like, if I think of a joke, I can t not tell someone.
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SPEAKER_01
If I think of a tag for someone to act like, I haven t done it this week, but there s very few weeks that go by that I don t text someone like, hey, when you say that, maybe try saying this, like, you know, I do it with Chris Rock.
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SPEAKER_01
I do it with everybody.
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SPEAKER_00
Does anybody ever get annoyed, like, thanks for your suggestion, guy who works at the door, but I got my shit.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, there was a ton of that.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, Chappelle didn t like it the first time I pitched him, but the joke that I pitched him worked.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, so he did try it, like, eh, why not, all right, we ll try it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, he knew when I pitched it that it would work.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right, but he s annoyed that you thought of it.
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SPEAKER_01
Look, I m not saying, like, look, there s gonna be resistance.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, there s plenty of people who don t, who I ll pitch a joke, and then they won t use it, and I m like, fucking idiot.
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SPEAKER_01
Like, dude, I m telling you, that ll work.
1
SPEAKER_01
But people, again, people didn t move out here to do my shit.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Which I get, so I don t, like, begrudge them.
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SPEAKER_01
I just stop pitching them.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re cut off, no more jokes for you.
1
SPEAKER_01
I just go like, okay, they re never gonna take my stuff, so why?
1
SPEAKER_00
Why waste your time?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and the brain power.
1
SPEAKER_00
So are you thinking of jokes for specific people in their act, or are you like, I have this generally good thing?
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, no, no, no.
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SPEAKER_01
If I have a generally good thing, I ll do it myself.
1
SPEAKER_01
But if I m watching someone s act, there s a hole, or they say something and they could say more, I will text them, like, hey, you might wanna say this.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s a unique skill set.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t know how many people do that for other people or are even able to do it for other people.
1
SPEAKER_00
Have you seen that a lot?
1
SPEAKER_00
Is that a common?
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, that s kind of what being a comedy writer is.
1
SPEAKER_00
Just writing stuff for other people all the time?
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, no, not unsolicited, but when you write on a TV show or, yeah, if you write on a TV show or you write movies or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_01
your job is they work a scene and then everybody punches it up.
1
SPEAKER_00
Sure, I can see that.
1
SPEAKER_00
It feels like if I m working on your show with you and Dave Chappelle, I m studying all your stuff and your voice and I m watching it over and over and you re kind of doing that but it s automatically happening in your head.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t try to like immerse myself.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s like I can write for Chris because, I can write for Chris Rock because I m a fan of his.
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SPEAKER_01
So I know his subjects.
1
SPEAKER_01
I know what he likes to talk about.
1
SPEAKER_01
I know how he likes to talk about it.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it s not like, think like Chris.
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SPEAKER_01
What would Chris say?
1
SPEAKER_01
It s just, it is automatic.
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SPEAKER_00
So it would be theoretically really hard for you, if you re like, hey, look, we re hiring Neil Brennan to write for you, Jordan, and you re like, this guy, I don t know this guy, I don t know what he does, I feel like the art of charm is some sort of weird thing, I wanna get outta here ASAP, I don t wanna, I don t know how to write for this guy, and it s like, you re getting a million dollars a week, and you re like, oh, God, it s gonna be a lot harder, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
If the person doesn t have a voice, it s hard.
1
SPEAKER_01
But if the person doesn t have like a clear comedy voice, then it s harder.
1
SPEAKER_01
But it s not impossible.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s not as easy.
1
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t flow.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, yeah, it s like it doesn t suggest it s like when, you know, somebody hosts SNL who s like, you know, an actress or something.
1
SPEAKER_01
And they re all like, all the writers are like, Jesus Christ.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like what?
1
SPEAKER_01
It s easy when it s Melissa McCarthy or Larry David or people that have a clear comedy voice, but if it s like some chick who just did an action movie and is hot, it s like Jesus Christ.
1
SPEAKER_01
So then you re just doing jokes because they re hot, but it s not because they have a clear comedic force.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think the advantage there is people, especially guys, will laugh at anything a beautiful woman says, generally, if the intent is to be funny.
1
SPEAKER_00
Not in comedy.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, really?
1
SPEAKER_01
At a bar they might, but not... Yeah, I feel like on SNL.
1
SPEAKER_01
If you re watching SNL, you can t have sex with Margot Robbie.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m signing off on that one, then.
1
SPEAKER_01
Laughing at your house, she s not gonna sleep with you because of that.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s harder for, if someone s super good looking, people are predisposed to not laugh, actually.
1
SPEAKER_00
women.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s interesting.
1
SPEAKER_01
In stand-up.
1
SPEAKER_01
In stand-up.
1
SPEAKER_01
In bars, again, guys will put up with anything.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just figured Saturday Night Live, most of the people watching are just dudes like me who are like, this better be funny tonight.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, it is.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s all defense.
1
SPEAKER_01
So, it s all just like, what?
1
SPEAKER_01
It s crossed arms and like predisposed to not like it.
1
SPEAKER_01
So, if they re hot, you re even more like, fuck you, you think you re funny?
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, you can t be funny and hot.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
Can you see the sign?
1
SPEAKER_01
I m not giving you that, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I already feel insecure around you.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m not gonna let you be funny too.
1
SPEAKER_00
Get out of here.
1
SPEAKER_00
You grew up, you had kind of a rough childhood, and your dad was a little bit hard on you from the sound of it, or a lot hard on you from the sound of it.
1
SPEAKER_00
How does that kind of thing alter the way that you develop emotionally?
1
SPEAKER_00
And I don t mean like from a therapist perspective here, but in terms of expression of feelings and stuff like that, which you kind of have to do a lot of in comedy maybe, how does it alter that?
1
SPEAKER_00
How does it get in there and mix up?
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I don t know too many comedians that are extremely happy as people.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I kinda noticed that, and I don t know why that is.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because part of it is, comedy requires brutal clarity, and you are not especially happy, you see things in a brutally clear way.
1
SPEAKER_01
Couldn t be less sentimental.
1
SPEAKER_01
you see the world in an unsentimental way and you can see things clearly and then you so you take like a brutal honest truth and then you basically spiff it up and put a tuxedo and a funny hat on it and you ve got comedy to begin with.
2
SPEAKER_01
you start from something like brutal, and then you sort of charm it up.
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SPEAKER_03
People are, right now, they re yelling at their iPhone or whatever they re using to play this, and they re like, the jokes make up for the sadness, and it s like, that s kind of the easy, obvious, there s more to it than that, like you just mentioned.
2
SPEAKER_03
You have that brutal sense of clarity, and they even say, they being like scientific American mind, for example, like depressed people have a more accurate outlook on reality.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and that it s good to have depressed people in a work group.
2
SPEAKER_02
I ve actually said that at times.
2
SPEAKER_02
I ve gone like, hey, can we look at this pessimistically?
2
SPEAKER_02
Really?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, because I think you re more prone to make mistakes if you assume things are gonna go well.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like I think the thing with, it s like Jerry Seinfeld said about stand-up, bad audiences make you edit and good audiences make you expand.
2
SPEAKER_02
So it s like, let s assume this isn t gonna work, why?
2
SPEAKER_02
What are the potential pitfalls for whatever this idea is?
2
SPEAKER_02
And then can we mediate that before we even start?
2
SPEAKER_02
Like when I m writing comedy, I can t assume like, they re going to be on board for this.
2
SPEAKER_02
Then I m going to say that, like, I have to assume that the audience is going to drive a hard bargain.
2
SPEAKER_03
Right.
2
SPEAKER_03
You have to assume that they re like me and they re looking at those no cards and they re like, what the fuck?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_02
So which is why I only do a few one liners up front.
2
SPEAKER_02
But I know like a friend of mine did a special and he put a great joke and I said, is that your closer?
2
SPEAKER_02
And he s like, no, I put it third.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, why?
2
SPEAKER_02
And he s like, because people will turn it off.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I think that s a good way to look at things.
2
SPEAKER_02
Because I ve actually imparted that wisdom to other people.
2
SPEAKER_02
And they go, no, they won t turn me off.
2
SPEAKER_02
Really?
2
SPEAKER_02
So you re the exception to human nature.
2
SPEAKER_02
It must be nice.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think there s something to pessimism.
2
SPEAKER_02
It can fuck your life up.
2
SPEAKER_02
But I think it s a decent thing to be mindful of.
2
SPEAKER_03
if we re trying to apply this at home, for example, outside of comedy writing, do you think, how does that exercise, if you will, work?
2
SPEAKER_03
Is it just like, let s assume that the first thing we do just bombs, and the second thing we do also doesn t work.
2
SPEAKER_03
Is that kind of the deal?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I do that in everything, because I direct stuff sometimes, like I said, I direct commercials, and I direct TV shows and stuff, and directing is all about
2
SPEAKER_02
having an offensive plan and a defensive plan.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, so I ll have a shot that I want, like, and then it ll be a one-er, and we ll just, it ll be no edits, and da-da-da-da, and I m like, well, but also, I need to get shots in case that doesn t work.
2
SPEAKER_02
I need to get, like, sort of static,
2
SPEAKER_02
defensive coverage in case this big idea doesn t work.
2
SPEAKER_02
And with stand-up, comedy writing, or whatever, it s just looking at things critically.
2
SPEAKER_02
And like, what if it doesn t work?
2
SPEAKER_02
You need to have a backup plan.
2
SPEAKER_02
Whenever people are like, I have, there is no plan B, I m like, oh, you re an idiot.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you re screwed.
2
SPEAKER_02
This has to work.
2
SPEAKER_02
Okay, well then you re fucking yourself.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, you have to have a defensive plan.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s like in stand-up.
2
SPEAKER_02
People always said, like, it was fun to watch Johnny Carson bomb.
2
SPEAKER_02
Johnny Carson, the old host of The Tonight Show.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
2
SPEAKER_02
when he bombed it was as funny as when he killed because his bomb he would like fidget and look off to the side and it was funny to watch.
2
SPEAKER_02
So Dave Chappelle said like you can tell how funny someone is by how they bomb.
2
SPEAKER_02
So it s like do you choke or do you realize like well this isn t going well and then you re funny and you re honest and your backup plan is your sort of saver.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s a really good point.
2
SPEAKER_03
I hadn t thought about that before.
2
SPEAKER_03
Once I was at the Laugh Factory, the comedy store, I can t remember.
2
SPEAKER_03
I was with my parents sitting at a table.
2
SPEAKER_03
They were seated kind of away from me because they wanted to see and not crane their necks.
2
SPEAKER_03
And the guy who was one of those open mic kind of short set deals.
2
SPEAKER_03
First guy doing crowd work, the whole audience was like, oh, why are you sitting with these two old people?
2
SPEAKER_03
Oh, they re my parents.
2
SPEAKER_03
And then he kind of played with us for a little bit.
2
SPEAKER_03
The next guy comes up and does this like really raunchy masturbation joke.
2
SPEAKER_03
And he points at me and he s like, this guy.
2
SPEAKER_03
And he just goes to town.
2
SPEAKER_03
The whole audience is kind of quiet because they know I m with my parents.
2
SPEAKER_03
And he goes, what the hell happened here?
2
SPEAKER_03
That usually just crushes it.
2
SPEAKER_03
And then he goes, wait, shit, are those your parents?
2
SPEAKER_03
Oh my God, I m so, and he made a big deal out of that.
2
SPEAKER_03
It was, and everybody, the tension had built up so high at that point that the whole room just exploded in laughter.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I thought,
2
SPEAKER_03
he could have blown that really easily by being like, oh, and then just moved on to the next thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
When I pitch movies, or pitch TV shows or whatever, and it s not going well, I will literally say that.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, well, this isn t going good.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I think if you say it in a confident way, it makes, even though you re still gonna bomb, you re bombing, you re bombing less.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
If you just say like, oh, this isn t going well.
2
SPEAKER_02
If you do it in a sweaty way, if you do it in a needy way, it can backfire.
2
SPEAKER_02
But there have been times where I ve been pitching movies and I ve said to the person that I was pitching to that we were bombing with, I was like, all right, well, we re going to come back in a year and pitch another one.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think if you re pitching or meeting people or whatever, or trying to sell yourself in some way, I think if you say like, look, I can see you don t like it.
2
SPEAKER_02
I understand.
2
SPEAKER_02
I ll come back.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like if you re instead of just this sweaty thing of like not acknowledging what s happening, I think that can make it way worse.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s like a bad Shark Tank.
2
SPEAKER_03
You ever watch that show where they re just getting killed and you re like, you suck through your teeth because you re like, this guy.
2
SPEAKER_02
You want the person to be like, all right, this isn t working.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m rescinding my offer.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
Or just like, I m just going to show you the product because I m blowing it.
2
SPEAKER_02
Or I m not even going to show you the product.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is going so badly.
2
SPEAKER_02
I would love that.
2
SPEAKER_02
If someone on Shark Tank was like, you know what?
2
SPEAKER_02
Fuck you guys.
2
SPEAKER_03
This is over.
2
SPEAKER_03
I don t know if that would make air, but it would be an awesome episode of Shark Tank.
2
SPEAKER_03
It d be hilarious.
2
SPEAKER_03
You wrote Half-Baked.
2
SPEAKER_03
That movie, speaking of pitching movies, I don t remember why that movie didn t do well, because when I watched it.
2
SPEAKER_02
Because it opened against Titanic, Goldeneye, and Good Will Hunting.
2
SPEAKER_03
That ll do it, that ll do it.
2
SPEAKER_03
But I watched that movie, I don t know, 50 times, and I haven t watched the other ones 50 times combined.
2
SPEAKER_03
Because, I don t even know, I wasn t like a pot smoker or anything like that when I was in high school or college or whenever that came out.
2
SPEAKER_03
It just turned into this weird, is cult classic the right term?
2
SPEAKER_03
Like it was this underground college.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s the exact right term.
2
SPEAKER_03
Like probably did a million times better on DVD than it did in theaters.
2
SPEAKER_03
Almost to the number a million times better.
2
SPEAKER_03
When you re doing Chappelle s show, did you decide, look, I wanna be performing instead of only writing?
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, how did the transition go?
2
SPEAKER_02
No, I never, that s the thing, like, I was never watching Dave being like, I should be Rick James.
2
SPEAKER_02
He s an amazing performer.
2
SPEAKER_02
I was never jealous or envious of the attention he got.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, I was happy with the amount of attention I was getting.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, more than anything, it came about because when the show ended, it was like, oh, well, I m at the whims of somebody else here.
2
SPEAKER_02
I need to be more self-determining and do something where, and I d been doing stand-up a bit, so I was like, let me focus more on that.
2
SPEAKER_03
When you re writing a show like that that s doing so frickin  well, you mentioned, well, we gotta look at things pessimistically and figure out if they maybe aren t gonna work.
2
SPEAKER_03
Is there ever a moment when you re writing something like that and you go, it s definitely gonna work, this is Chappelle s show, we re killing it?
2
SPEAKER_03
Or did you always kinda go, well, you know?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, there was never, I mean, I was thinking pessimistic, you have to think pessimistically.
2
SPEAKER_02
The reason things work
3
SPEAKER_00
is because further upstream, I and Dave were worried about whether it was gonna work or not, and we corrected it, or we made it good, because we needed a joke.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, we would go, we need a joke here.
3
SPEAKER_00
We can t move on until we have a joke here.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, Chabelle hosted SNL a couple months ago, and I worked on it with him, and it was like, there was a sketch we did, and I was like, we don t have an ending.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he was getting mad at me, I m like, dude, you can get mad at me all you want, we don t have an ending.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then we figured it out.
3
SPEAKER_00
But it came from me saying we don t have an ending, and him going, I think we do, and me going, no, I don t think we do.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, as much as I was a pain in his ass, I was correct.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that happened, and there were plenty of times where he, vice versa, like, where he d say, I don t think we have a joke here, I don t think we have an ending, and I d be like, eh.
3
SPEAKER_00
If someone criticizes something,
3
SPEAKER_00
even if you don t agree with them, I think it s worth maybe coming up with a solution.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s a really good point, I hadn t thought of that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because even if they re wrong, worst case is you worked out this non-existent problem.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s like when people are like, I like this joke, it s like, okay, I don t.
3
SPEAKER_00
Take 40, how long did it take you to think of the joke?
3
SPEAKER_00
A split second, take another two minutes and try to beat it.
3
SPEAKER_00
It becomes this ego thing, and it becomes this defensiveness thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, well no, that works, and da-da-da-da-da, I like it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I bet you do like it.
3
SPEAKER_00
You thought of it, I bet you like it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Me and a buddy of mine who used to be the head writer of Silent Live would say to people, go like, we like that, and he s like, oh, I know you do.
3
SPEAKER_00
The audience didn t like it, and we work for the audience, and so you need to come up with a better joke here, or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, like you said, if you try to come up with a solution, and you can t, then you ve done your due diligence, and you can sell, do whatever you re doing with a clear head.
3
SPEAKER_00
But the good news is, you may think of a way better joke.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or way better anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like a lot of what experience is, in my case it s comedy, it s like seeing patterns and remembering like, oh this reminds me of that, and that didn t go well, so how can I work against that?
3
SPEAKER_00
That s what wisdom is, that s what experience is.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like we may be making that mistake, how do we avoid making that mistake?
3
SPEAKER_01
how clear is that image of the pattern in your head?
3
SPEAKER_01
For example, are you just going, I feel like this doesn t work, or are you like, no, last time we tried this and this and this, and that followed this pattern, and it didn t work.
3
SPEAKER_01
How crystal clear is that?
3
SPEAKER_00
It s very clear.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s what experience is like.
3
SPEAKER_00
Working on Siren Live a bit this year, hung out with Lorne Michaels a bunch, and he s been a comedy writer for 50 years, and wrote for shows that you never heard of, literally 50 years ago.
3
SPEAKER_00
he ll talk about a sketch.
3
SPEAKER_00
At Second Life, they read 50 sketches a week.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so that s 50 sketches a week, 25 times a year, for 43 years.
3
SPEAKER_00
So he ll talk about sketches and go, yeah, I ve seen that sketch 10 times, I ve written myself twice, and he s not talking about that literal sketch, he s talking about that pattern of sketch, that format, that formula, whatever you want to call it.
3
SPEAKER_00
A lot of it is just seeing a pattern and going, like when we were at Silent Live, the week Dave hosted, there was a sketch that somebody pitched, and it was a funny pitch, but I knew where it was headed, and I was like, I said to Dave, I was like, that s a good idea, but something tells me it s gonna be flat when we read it, and sure enough, it was flat when we read it, because I knew what the idea was.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do you test stuff like that?
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you have a focused audience in there, or are you just like, in the back of your head, you re like, this is still not funny?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because we re rehearsing it and it sucks.
3
SPEAKER_00
You just can tell by being a comedian and being a funny person, you just like, this isn t funny.
3
SPEAKER_01
It seems like it would be really easy to start writing comedy for comedians instead of writing comedy for an audience of people who just got done.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s the same thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, comedians might not laugh, but they ll go, that s a good joke.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s the thing, is you get to a place where you re like, ah, that s a good joke.
3
SPEAKER_00
We all recognize a good joke when we see it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Having said that, I have a ton of experience, a ton of boots on the ground, et cetera.
3
SPEAKER_00
I still bomb regularly, or do a joke that bombs regularly.
3
SPEAKER_00
I do a new material show usually every Tuesday in Santa Monica and at the West Side Comedy Theater in L.A., and I do jokes every week that don t work.
3
SPEAKER_00
There are things like, I think this might work.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s the thing about comedy is, this should work, but it s a fickle thing, and it s really subtle, and it s the highest level of difficulty.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if you can do stand-up, or you can pretty much do anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you look at the things that comedians do that actors can t fucking do, how many actors do you know that can write their own show?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because I know 20 comedians that can.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you kind of have to.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, their own show, not their app.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m not talking about their app.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, no, yeah, like a sitcom.
3
SPEAKER_00
How many actors do you know that can write their own monologues and then write their own television show and do 25 episodes a year for eight years?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because like I said, I know a lot of comedians and movies and then direct movies.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then, you know, it s like comedians can do a lot of stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s incredible, actually, and it seems like the kind of thing that you would not get good at for a really long time when you start.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s like incredibly trying.
3
SPEAKER_00
There are people that are good immediately.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think Chappelle was good immediately.
3
SPEAKER_00
When he was like 14, he started.
3
SPEAKER_00
Jeez.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ve heard Schumer was good immediately.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ve heard like there are people that are good immediately.
3
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, it takes a long time to get good at.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s the thing, is that there s really no shortcut.
3
SPEAKER_00
You can be good-looking, whatever, but if you don t have good jokes, ultimately, the thing about stand-up is, and comedy in general, whoever writes the most good jokes is the most successful, period.
3
SPEAKER_00
Meritocracy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Complete meritocracy.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know who s written the most good jokes?
3
SPEAKER_00
Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock, Louis CK, Bill Burr, Richard Pryor, George Carlin, Jerry Seinfeld.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, these are not...
3
SPEAKER_00
Wait, who s that?
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like basketball or sports.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like whoever has the most home runs is Babe Ruth.
3
SPEAKER_00
When you hit 750 home runs, you get to be Babe Ruth.
3
SPEAKER_00
And stand-up s the same way.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like whoever writes the most good jokes is the winner.
3
SPEAKER_01
We talked earlier about trying to achieve things or trying to get good at something in order to make yourself feel better, because you struggled with depression for a while.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, do you still?
3
SPEAKER_00
Still do, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Still do?
3
SPEAKER_01
There s a lot of people that are obviously in the same boat.
3
SPEAKER_01
A lot of people write in as well, looking to apply what they learn on the show to
3
SPEAKER_01
issues like depression and other types of sadness and things like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what advice do you have for people who are thinking, holy crap, this is me.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m trying to achieve stuff or get ahead or do something great in order to overcome depression.
3
SPEAKER_01
I overachieve in order to make up for something I m lacking elsewhere in my life.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, that s something you ve dealt with a lot.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s what it is.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s what achievement is.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think all achievement comes from feeling of deficiency.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think there are some exceptional people who are like, my father and mother told me I was great.
3
SPEAKER_00
and it turns out I m great.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, they were right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, again, there are rare instances, but most of it comes from a feeling of deficiency, and this has just happened for me recently, where I finally feel like I ve achieved enough shit in my life that the voices in my head have lost credibility.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, the negative voices, it s like, you couldn t do it without Dave, you didn t know that, and then I d done enough stuff in my life where it s like, okay, I ve written for so many TV shows and done it well, I have a stand-up specials that are well-received, I ve done enough shit at this point that s like, alright, voice in my head, like, you re just wrong.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re wrong.
3
SPEAKER_00
But it took 25 years.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it may go away.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s the other thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like this could be a result of a part of me thinks it s like these things that I finally achieved and finally like three mics being really well received and me finally going like, hey, give yourself a break, kid.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or it could just be because I started taking Zoloft again five months ago.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I just meant the voice in your head telling you not to get too cozy because you re worried about that it could go away.
3
SPEAKER_00
The other thing I found, though, is that there s no real happiness in it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, I read a Prince quote recently that I ve been telling a lot of people, which is, somebody was telling him, like, write more songs, why don t you write another hit?
3
SPEAKER_00
And Prince looked at them and said, look, I ve been to the mountaintop, there s nothing there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, I ve achieved a lot of shit.
3
SPEAKER_00
Any happiness I have
3
SPEAKER_00
Or a good portion of the happiness I have is from meditation and from my own outlook on what life should be.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because I ve done a bunch of stuff and it s like, meh, it s pretty cool to do a Netflix special that people like and it s pretty cool to do a TV show.
3
SPEAKER_00
Again, you hear this all the time, which is happiness is a choice.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I ve become more aware of that in the last six months than ever in my life.
3
SPEAKER_00
It really is just a matter of
3
SPEAKER_00
I can look for external validation, but ultimately it s just gotta come down to like, do I wanna be happy or not?
3
SPEAKER_00
There are things I can do to make myself happy in a way that s not outcome-based.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s a term, unconditional happiness.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m not gonna be happy if I m just gonna be happy.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s what I ve focused more on in the last few months.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s been working out really well so far.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it has.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m sure your listeners will be like, you don t sound happy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just cause I m fighting a cold.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I don t know how to parse
4
SPEAKER_00
out what s the approval I ve been getting and what s the medication and what s the new outlook, but I meditate every day and I do CBT, which is cognitive behavioral therapy, which is like a, there s a list of 10 negative thought styles, which just Google it.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s really excellent.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I ve been more aware of those thinking styles and trying to play defense against it in myself.
4
SPEAKER_00
So as a result, as much as it is like, working the art of charm will make you a more effective communicator, but who gives a shit?
4
SPEAKER_00
If you don t feel happy.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s like, to what end?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, I ve done a ton of shit.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like I said, I have a good resume.
4
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t necessarily making me happy until I realized, like, this resume shit doesn t make a difference.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, like, I went on vacation with my girlfriend, I m single now, but
4
SPEAKER_00
We went on vacation to Bali and we were doing nothing.
4
SPEAKER_00
And she s like, you re so happy.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, I love not doing shit.
4
SPEAKER_00
This makes me happy.
4
SPEAKER_00
And figuring out that, all right, go do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Do more of nothing.
4
SPEAKER_00
I didn t do shit yesterday.
4
SPEAKER_00
It was fucking great.
4
SPEAKER_00
I didn t do fucking jack shit and it was fantastic.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m lucky in that I don t have to work all the time, but there s something to like, what makes you happy?
4
SPEAKER_00
I like playing video games sometimes.
4
SPEAKER_00
Fuck it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Play a video game.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like do the thing that makes you happy.
4
SPEAKER_00
There s such a premium put on achievement.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m just saying, as someone who s done a lot of this stuff and is successful, the next chapter is what makes me truly happy and what kind of life am I going to lead from the inside out, not from the outside in.
4
SPEAKER_01
You tried a ton of stuff to get rid of the depression.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, ketamine and then TMS, which is like brain magnetic stimulation.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, just like stuff that goes beyond the Zoloft.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I try fucking anything.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like I ve tried everything, including achievement.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, as a thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
Which is harder than ketamine.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I ve tried everything, and it just has to come to a point where you go, alright, it s not outside of me.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s just not outside of me.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s not about, like, making contacts, and following up, and sending out emails.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like, yeah, that s fine.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s not that meaningful.
4
SPEAKER_00
I can work on Saturday Night Live, or I can work on Chappelle Show, or I can do a Netflix special.
4
SPEAKER_00
If I don t like it, if I m not happy doing it, fuck it.
4
SPEAKER_00
What s the point?
4
SPEAKER_00
So I can say I did it?
4
SPEAKER_00
I have enough shit I can say I did.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s such a tempting trap for people though, man.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s not even a tempting trap.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s our whole society.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s not even a trap.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s, I mean it is a trap, but the whole thing is a trap.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s all a trap.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, and I m not trying to get too like,
4
SPEAKER_00
you know, matrixy, but it is like, yeah, it truly is all a trap.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like, people have ambition and don t even know why they have it.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like, where is it coming from?
4
SPEAKER_00
What s the point?
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like approval-seeking behavior at that point.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and it s just a habit.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a habit that s like, do you like it?
4
SPEAKER_00
Do you really like it?
4
SPEAKER_00
Do you feel fulfilled by it?
4
SPEAKER_00
If you do, great.
4
SPEAKER_00
Chances are, you re full of shit, or it doesn t actually fulfill you.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think a lot of the stuff that we used to do, that I used to do personally, especially in this business early on, was just like, it s gotta be big, we have to have a good social media following and all this stuff, and people have to really understand our mission.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then when I kinda decided that that was less important than just having conversations with people that I found interesting, the show frickin  took off from there.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s because it was like, what do I actually like?
4
SPEAKER_00
I like interesting shit.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s part of what was good about Three Mikes.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like, well, who am I actually?
4
SPEAKER_00
Because there s a lot of comedians that are on stage and that s not you.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s not who you are.
4
SPEAKER_00
This was, the thing about Three Mikes is like, this is who I actually am.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t have all the charisma and charm that a lot of my peers have.
4
SPEAKER_00
And Three Mikes was in some way explaining why I don t.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I do.
4
SPEAKER_00
I have fucking clinical depression and I had a weird childhood.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ve been doing all this stuff.
4
SPEAKER_00
Here s my story.
4
SPEAKER_00
There are people now that they know the story will like me forever.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s not because when I walk into a room, people want to say yes before they know what the question is, which is, I ve heard that s the definition of it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s not because of that.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s because I m honest and I m relatable as a result.
4
SPEAKER_01
you kind of nailed the whole concept behind the show, which is like authenticity in the face of just whatever sort of is going on up here.
4
SPEAKER_01
Because that, I feel like, and I know, is much more interesting and attractive and relatable to other people.
4
SPEAKER_01
You can t have friends if they don t know the real person inside.
4
SPEAKER_01
But a lot of people are afraid to show that because they re busy covering it up with a mask of like, look how frickin  cool I am and accomplished I am.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s the antithesis of what we re doing here.
4
SPEAKER_01
We re trying to show people that like, look, all the crap that you think makes you not as palatable as you would like is the stuff that makes you real and therefore is the stuff that you should actually probably showcase.
4
SPEAKER_00
I took an acting class probably seven years ago, and I would do scenes, and the acting teacher was like, you re not being real.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, dude, I m such a sad person, you don t wanna see it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then he was like, no, you have to do it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I did it, and it was like, oh.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that was the first time people were like, dude, you re really good.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, oh, okay.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like, Republicans do it a lot politically, where they ll go like, they ll say what s our weakness, and they ll make it a strength.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like a job interview.
4
SPEAKER_01
My weaknesses, I m just too detail-oriented.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think it s more like, was John Kerry a war hero, or was he a coward?
4
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, you think he s so great, it s actually, you ve got it 100% wrong.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like, is Neil too sad?
4
SPEAKER_00
Let me show you like, way more of, Three Mikes is like a stylistically, I do it in an artful way.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m not just like, hmm.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, like I try to, I explain it in a way, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
I explain it in a way that s like, you can understand it, and it s helpful to people.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m not saying like, you just gotta be honest all the time.
4
SPEAKER_00
I just think that there are things that people keep secret that are unnecessary.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think what I found is everyone s got a thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
and whereas I just went first, and then everyone comes out and is like, I m depressed, I have a bad thing with my dad.
4
SPEAKER_00
So everyone s got a thing, and it s like when people apologize on dates where they re like, I m sorry I m being so serious, I m like, this is all I want to talk about.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I don t need to hear about all the great things that are going on in your Instagram feed.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I don t care that you can quote Anchorman, like I don t give a shit.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I think that it is about what do you actually find enjoyable and then doing that and being yourself unapologetically.
4
SPEAKER_01
You said that you did a lot of honest writing when you were in a 12-step program.
4
SPEAKER_01
Can you talk about that a little bit?
4
SPEAKER_01
Is that something we can apply at all?
4
SPEAKER_00
I think it s just that thing I said about brutal clarity.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s the depression thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
In some ways, the three mics is like, is the Eminem thing at the end of Eight Mile, which is like, I am white, I am a fucking bum.
4
SPEAKER_00
What are you gonna say about me?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, literally, what s the meanest thing you can say about me?
4
SPEAKER_00
I m a star fucker.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, guess what I m doing a monologue about?
4
SPEAKER_00
I m a star fucker.
4
SPEAKER_00
Here s why.
4
SPEAKER_00
Makes sense now that you hear it, doesn t it?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, because I have no self-esteem, I was fucking chasing celebrities around.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like, what s the worst thing people can say about you?
4
SPEAKER_00
The reason I said it in public is the thing that I, this is gonna sound crazy, but I read it in Mystery s book.
4
SPEAKER_01
Really?
4
SPEAKER_00
It s the thing, in Mystery s book it says, if you re going out to pick up girls, give your buddy $300 and say, give me $100 back every girl I try to talk to, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
So this was, I would do that with standup.
4
SPEAKER_00
I would give somebody $300 and say, every time I smile for more than five seconds, give me $80, whatever, give me my money back.
4
SPEAKER_00
First time I did it, I lost $220.
4
SPEAKER_00
But this was my way of saying, okay, by calling myself a starfucker in public makes it way more embarrassing to do it for me.
4
SPEAKER_00
I can t do it anymore.
4
SPEAKER_00
I can t in good conscience, having called myself this in public, it s like where people will post their exercise results online.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a bit of that, where it s like, I m making myself accountable.
4
SPEAKER_00
So if people see me with a famous person, they re gonna be a little disappointed.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, motherfucker, I thought you weren t hiding anymore.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s what I kind of am doing.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s kind of what I was doing.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s being brutally honest with yourself and figuring out a way to make yourself stop doing it.
4
SPEAKER_01
How do you stay motivated to start again, and this might not be the right terminology, so pardon me, but at the quote-unquote bottom.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you re doing open mic stuff, or you were doing open mic stuff.
4
SPEAKER_01
You already sort of touched the brass ring with the Chappelle Show.
4
SPEAKER_01
How do you stay motivated?
4
SPEAKER_01
Because I think a lot of people, when they heard I was interviewing you, they re like, oh yeah, he s bouncing back, like that must be tough.
4
SPEAKER_01
I thought, yeah, maybe he doesn t look at it like that, or maybe he does.
4
SPEAKER_00
Everything you do is starting at the scratch.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, as a comedy writer, writing is so fucking hard that, like, it s all starting from scratch.
4
SPEAKER_00
So, like, from the maker of blank doesn t really get people in the seats.
4
SPEAKER_00
It does a little bit, but not really.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, especially now that there s so much media saturation, I see it all as, like, starting from the bottom.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think when you write a movie or direct a movie, it s hard for everyone.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s literally, even being movie stars, no one gets everything they want.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s always someone who s better than you.
5
SPEAKER_01
For a long time, it was Will Smith, and then now he kind of seems to have lost something.
5
SPEAKER_01
So they go, Kevin Hart.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, Kevin will do it, or whatever.
5
SPEAKER_01
And even when it was Will, there was movies that Denzel Washington would get that he couldn t get.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, there was always somebody.
5
SPEAKER_01
In showbiz, you have to do it every day.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s how it s like sports.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like, when Bron plays, they don t automatically give him 30 points.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, good point.
5
SPEAKER_01
He has to score every game and it s people might play shittier defense against him But mostly it s because he s bigger and faster than them.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I d see it as bouncing whatever you want to call it But because I did spell show people are not predisposed to like something else I do if they don t like it because your friend recommended it you gave me more time But like everyone s defensive about everything.
5
SPEAKER_01
You don t really get the benefit of the doubt for the most part So you shouldn t play like you have it know the best example of this I can think of is
5
SPEAKER_01
I talked to Eddie Murphy one time about when he was on Saturday Night Live and I said, did you just feel like you were dominating and like you were just killing and you were the Midas touch?
5
SPEAKER_01
And he s like, no, man, it was week to week.
5
SPEAKER_01
I just was trying to survive.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you think about all the shit he did, but he was like, I was just trying to get sketches on.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that s life in showbiz for sure.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think the way the world is now, I think everything is like so market-based.
5
SPEAKER_01
No one s gonna give you money for nothing, like for the most part.
5
SPEAKER_01
Other than of course voiceover.
5
SPEAKER_01
Which is the easiest money you ll ever make.
5
SPEAKER_00
You do a bunch of that, huh?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I did a bunch of stuff for Samsung like two years ago, for like a year and a half, it was the best.
5
SPEAKER_00
I did Grand Theft Auto 4 and 3.
5
SPEAKER_00
What d you do?
5
SPEAKER_00
Bad guys.
5
SPEAKER_00
Great.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like Russians and, you know, explosion, guys who are involved in the character s life.
5
SPEAKER_00
Of course, a lot of those little side gig guys where it s like a radio DJ or nerd and then like a million pedestrians.
5
SPEAKER_00
Great.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because they just wanted to knock those guys out and you re already in there.
5
SPEAKER_00
Can you do an Indian accent?
5
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, not really, and they re like, just try it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Just try one.
5
SPEAKER_00
Doesn t have to be real.
5
SPEAKER_00
So you just do this really racist Indian accent, and they re like, nailed it, next.
5
SPEAKER_00
That is kind of free money.
5
SPEAKER_00
I remember getting $445 for an hour of work, and I thought I was gonna get a t-shirt or something, and I was like, sign me up for every video game ever, and then I sucked it all of the credits.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you re also not gonna get free money for long.
5
SPEAKER_01
If you d sucked it, you wouldn t have gotten it again.
5
SPEAKER_00
I did a couple other ones, but man, doing aliens and stuff, it s so much harder than people think.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re thinking of an awesome character, they want that, but 10% in a different way, and you just can t do it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Unless you re an actor, you just can t do it.
5
SPEAKER_00
You had a great quote where you summarized a little bit of this.
5
SPEAKER_00
You said, I m never gonna be more successful than I ve been in the past two years.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have a better chance of being eaten by a shark.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ll never be famous, but I ve got financial success.
5
SPEAKER_00
People in showbiz seem to want to work with me, and I get to control the stuff I write.
5
SPEAKER_00
Fame gives you noise, which is frickin  worthless.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ve got a girlfriend I love, so I can t use it to get women, and it s not like Dave and I got laid because of Chappelle s show.
5
SPEAKER_00
He was married and I m pale.
5
SPEAKER_00
What do you mean by fame gives you a lot of noise?
5
SPEAKER_00
I think that s a brilliant observation.
5
SPEAKER_01
What I ve found with the small amount of fame that I have in the last month, or whatever, I ve always said I m famous like an NBA referee, where people are like, where do I know you from?
5
SPEAKER_01
It can get you laid for sure, but I think for the most part it s just like, getting recognized is mostly an exercise in calming the person down.
5
SPEAKER_01
When someone recognizes you, they just start acting crazy, like, dude, I just gotta say, dude, I can t believe you re here, can we, and you have to just be like, yeah man, it s cool, yes, I d love to take a picture with you, yeah, okay, great, here we go, yeah, we re gonna take a picture, really nice to meet you.
5
SPEAKER_01
They re having a freakout, and you almost have to like, give them CPR.
5
SPEAKER_01
in the middle of the grove.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you just have to give them a little massage.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s gonna be fine.
5
SPEAKER_01
Fame will get you... A lot of people acting weird around you.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s mostly what it gives you.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then you might pick up a good voiceover gig.
5
SPEAKER_01
You can advertise, you can promote liquor.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or you get free Twizzlers at the movie theater.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, not even.
5
SPEAKER_01
Love that Netflix.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes you get free shit, but mostly it s valuable for attracting, for men to attract women.
5
SPEAKER_01
really shallow women that you dislike.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, or, you know, it just makes it easier.
5
SPEAKER_01
Even if they re not shallow, it makes it easier.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I suppose that s true.
5
SPEAKER_00
That would have to have, it s just a social value.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, your high status.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
But it s also really ephemeral.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, your high status now, but then when you stop being high status, people look at you like, uh.
5
SPEAKER_01
Ooh, poor thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Remember when you were famous?
5
SPEAKER_01
People feel bad for you, and they kind of are shittier, too.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, like, how you doing?
5
SPEAKER_00
And you re like, I m fine, thanks for treating me like somebody just died close to me.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ve been fine for years, like I m good.
5
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_00
People think they act normal around celebrities.
5
SPEAKER_01
No one acts normal.
5
SPEAKER_00
No, it s like being around cops.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m driving, the speed limit.
5
SPEAKER_01
See, I m a normal driver.
5
SPEAKER_01
Look at me drive.
5
SPEAKER_00
Man, you ve been really generous with your time.
5
SPEAKER_00
I appreciate it.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s a couple questions from listeners of the show that I feel compelled to ask you since you re sitting here.
5
SPEAKER_00
Do you have pre-show rituals?
5
SPEAKER_00
A lot of comics have things they have to do.
5
SPEAKER_00
No, I have none.
5
SPEAKER_00
None?
5
SPEAKER_00
No.
5
SPEAKER_00
I usually have to have like two mugs of tea, and to be honest, if you weren t here and we weren t doing this like in video, I d have something probably to take a leak in, just in case.
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SPEAKER_00
Really?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
Are we on video?
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SPEAKER_00
No, no, no, no.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
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SPEAKER_00
No, no, but you re here.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m not gonna like pee in your bottle in front of you.
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SPEAKER_00
That would be a weird thing to do around anyone, let alone.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes, thank you.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you re welcome.
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SPEAKER_00
Thanks for not doing that.
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SPEAKER_00
Would you ever work with Dave again?
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SPEAKER_00
I work with him on Signing Live.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, you do?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
But like on a project, I guess, with just you and him?
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SPEAKER_01
I don t think it s even gonna be an issue.
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SPEAKER_00
You re not gonna have that ever happen?
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SPEAKER_00
No.
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SPEAKER_00
No.
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SPEAKER_01
And if I did, I would get the money up front.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Make sure it s in the bank.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
I love the comedy.
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SPEAKER_00
You re one of my new favorites now, and I don t say that to everybody that comes in.
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SPEAKER_00
I know you re probably thinking like, yeah, right, because a lot of people are like, sure, yeah, I m a fan.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no, I understand that people are now seeing me for the first time,
5
SPEAKER_00
I dig it, and I honestly think Women and Black Dudes, your first album, is that what they re called?
5
SPEAKER_01
It was an hour on Comedy Central, it s an album.
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SPEAKER_00
It is really, really funny.
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SPEAKER_00
Like I told you before when we walked in, I was at a coffee shop and people were looking at me like, I hope that he s wearing headphones, otherwise we have to call the police.
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SPEAKER_00
And I don t normally laugh out loud to comedy because a lot of us is not that funny, even TV.
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SPEAKER_00
I appreciate it, man.
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SPEAKER_00
We ll link to Women and Black Dudes in the show notes.
5
SPEAKER_00
We ll obviously link to, can you link to things on Netflix?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you can.
5
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so we ll link to that in the show notes, the new one.
5
SPEAKER_00
What s next for you, man?
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SPEAKER_00
What s going on next?
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SPEAKER_01
I m doing a couple pilots, and just, you know, I m around.
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SPEAKER_00
And in the credits, it ll be like, from the creator of, and everyone will be like, I don t care.
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SPEAKER_01
People will go, I don t, that means nothing to me.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, from Neil Brennan, hmm, that sounds familiar.
5
SPEAKER_01
Where do I know that?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it ll have to be the three mic guy.
5
SPEAKER_00
Alright, well thank you.
5
SPEAKER_00
Thanks, bro.
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SPEAKER_00
Great big thank you to Neil Brennan.
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SPEAKER_00
His special is called Three Mics, and that is, of course, in Netflix.
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SPEAKER_00
We ll link that in the show notes.
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SPEAKER_00
If you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Neil on Twitter.
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SPEAKER_00
We ll have that linked in the show notes as well.
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SPEAKER_00
I d love for you to tweet at me your number one takeaway from Neil Brennan.
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SPEAKER_00
I m at The Art of Charm on Twitter.
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SPEAKER_00
And remember, if you want to see the show notes, you can tap your phone screen, and most mobile podcast players, they should pop right up.
5
SPEAKER_00
Our bootcamps are live programs here in LA.
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SPEAKER_00
Details for those are at theartofcharm.com slash bootcamp.
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SPEAKER_00
Guys coming from all over the world.
5
SPEAKER_00
Super rewarding.
5
SPEAKER_00
I love seeing how far this takes people.
5
SPEAKER_00
What they do in the months and years after bootcamp is nothing short of amazing.
5
SPEAKER_00
And remember, we sell out a few months in advance, so if you re thinking about it a little bit,
5
SPEAKER_00
You should get in touch ASAP, get some info from us so you can plan ahead.
5
SPEAKER_00
I also want to encourage you to join our AOC challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or if you re in your car right now, at a red light, you can text the word charmed, C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
5
SPEAKER_00
The challenge is about improving your networking and connection skills and inspiring those around you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you.
5
SPEAKER_00
We ll also email you our Fundamentals Toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show.
5
SPEAKER_00
That includes some great practical stuff on reading body language, having charismatic nonverbal communication, the science of attraction, negotiation techniques, networking and influence strategies, mentorship, persuasion tactics, and everything else that we teach here at The Art of Charm.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m also doing regular videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward.
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SPEAKER_00
It s designed to make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or text the word charmed to 33444.
5
SPEAKER_00
For full show notes for this and all previous episodes, head on over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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SPEAKER_00
This episode of AOC was produced by Jason DeFilippo.
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SPEAKER_00
Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor, and the show notes on the website are by Robert Fogarty.
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SPEAKER_00
I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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SPEAKER_00
Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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SPEAKER_00
Word of mouth is everything.
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SPEAKER_00
So stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.