0
SPEAKER_01
This is the art of charm.
0
SPEAKER_01
Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
0
SPEAKER_01
Welcome to the Art of Charm.
0
SPEAKER_01
I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
0
SPEAKER_01
Today we re talking with my friend David Berkus, author of Under New Management.
0
SPEAKER_01
We re gonna talk about how to manage your existing network, why contacts at your former job or career might actually be more important now than they ever were, and how your productivity is affected by those around you, and how to maximize those effects for the better.
0
SPEAKER_01
And with that, welcome to the show.
0
SPEAKER_01
We bring together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
0
SPEAKER_01
If you re new to The Art of Charm, we d love to send you some top episodes and the toolbox, where we discuss body language, nonverbal communication, persuasion, networking, negotiation, and everything else we teach here at AOC.
0
SPEAKER_01
In the US, just text charmed to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
0
SPEAKER_01
Everywhere else, go to theartofcharm.com.
0
SPEAKER_01
We may not have all the answers, but we definitely have all the right questions.
0
SPEAKER_01
All right, let s talk to David Berkus.
0
SPEAKER_01
Tell us what you do in one sentence.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s how I start every show and yours is no different.
0
SPEAKER_01
What do I do in one sentence?
0
SPEAKER_00
I make it easier for ideas to leave the ivory tower and get adopted by the people in the corner office that need it.
0
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so ivory tower being the academic.
0
SPEAKER_01
Here s how you lead people.
0
SPEAKER_00
There s tons of great research on human behavior, leadership, how people interact in organizations, and a lot of it is written for an audience of other academics, so it gets published in a journal, it gets read by 12 people, and then nothing happens.
0
SPEAKER_01
Pat s cell phone back, I invented a new concept, we tested it in a lab, never in a real company, because that would be too much work, dot, dot, dot.
0
SPEAKER_00
Insulting.
0
SPEAKER_00
And some of it s amazing, but because you don t speak practitioner, it never actually makes the transfer out of one realm into the other, and this realm, in my opinion, is desperate.
0
SPEAKER_01
It seems like that, and I read the book, actually, the Under New Management piece, which at first I thought, where is the angle for AOC with this?
0
SPEAKER_01
Because at first glance, it s a roundup of all these things that many of us who read tons of business information or read tons of business books might have heard before.
0
SPEAKER_01
Things like, hey, open office spaces, not as good as you think, and flexible scheduling, or flexible time off, and things like that.
0
SPEAKER_01
Here s how the policy really works in action.
0
SPEAKER_01
You ve managed to take those topics, but then take a really deep dive into a lot of them in a really interesting way, and I would love to talk about some of that, but since this is Art of Charm, I also want to steer completely off the road from what you wrote in the book and talk about how normal people who aren t necessarily business leaders can apply this stuff in their daily lives.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, totally, and of course, I mean, I m biased, but this can apply sort of everywhere, and I listen to AOC,
0
SPEAKER_01
Good reference, appreciate it.
0
SPEAKER_01
Totally, A degree symbol C. Right, yes.
0
SPEAKER_01
The hats that we have have an A and then a degree symbol and a C because.
0
SPEAKER_00
I love it, it s my new favorite hat actually.
0
SPEAKER_01
You can t get a small O, they don t do small Os on swag, not yet.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s awesome.
0
SPEAKER_01
Well first of all, I love the branding, the way you ve been able to do this.
0
SPEAKER_01
You travel around the world talking about things that you wrote about in a book, which you got from researching things that other people researched and you just put it together in a way that s really genius.
0
SPEAKER_01
So your work product, it s real.
0
SPEAKER_01
But at the same time, you ve managed to become this messenger that makes a living being the messenger of translating things into application, which in large part is what I also do on this show.
0
SPEAKER_01
I take something where everybody goes, here s a bunch of science, and I m like, how do I make money with this?
0
SPEAKER_01
Or how do I become a better significant other with this?
0
SPEAKER_01
Or how do I negotiate a higher salary with this?
0
SPEAKER_01
You re doing that, and you re flying all over the world talking about it.
0
SPEAKER_01
I d love to hear some of the topics that you re discussing right now.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and messenger is actually a really good term, because that s kind of the goal, to say, hey, here are these great ideas you may not have seen.
0
SPEAKER_00
In network theory, the fancy term is structural whole, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
So we find that there s this desperate need for different clusters of people in different subjects, and the person that can bridge the gap, that s you.
0
SPEAKER_00
There s a desperate need for that in a lot of different networks, so we can bring those ideas together.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, really, it just comes from trying to connect things to find sort of that through line between a lot of different ideas.
0
SPEAKER_00
So when such and such company does this, it gets a lot of press.
0
SPEAKER_00
You were talking about flexible work, unlimited vacation, Netflix, for example, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
0
SPEAKER_00
But what doesn t get a lot of press is over here, where a lot of people aren t in this community can see it over here is this amazing research on trust being reciprocal, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
Nobody
0
SPEAKER_00
earns trust, trust is reciprocated, you give trust, and then it s reciprocated to you.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that s what a limited vacation policy does, for example.
0
SPEAKER_00
So it s about sort of putting those two connections together.
0
SPEAKER_00
There s a ton of research here, even getting down to sort of the biochemical level of why people trust other people, why they trust their companies, etc.
0
SPEAKER_00
This just happens to be an example of that.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that s the goal is to sort of connect people.
0
SPEAKER_01
So you re looking at oxytocin on Business Insider.
0
SPEAKER_01
They re very good, yes.
0
SPEAKER_01
Well, oxytocin s like, yeah, it s never on Business Insider.
0
SPEAKER_01
Right, it s everywhere but on Business Insider.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right, totally.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right, the example I gave is terrible.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I mean, that s honestly, that s kind of the reason that I wanted to write the book, was that you read all this stuff on Business Insider, Fast Co.
0
SPEAKER_00
whatever.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, my trainings as an organizational psychologist, like my mind goes to that.
0
SPEAKER_00
I m like, but no one s writing about now.
0
SPEAKER_00
Well, it s time to do that, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
Because like you said, you might not ever employ anybody, or you might just always be an employee, you might always be miserable, whatever.
0
SPEAKER_00
So unlimited vacation, other than saying, Oh, that d be great.
0
SPEAKER_00
I wish I had that.
0
SPEAKER_00
If you can know the underlying principle, there s probably somewhere else that you can build that trust relationship through reciprocation.
0
SPEAKER_01
Or if this is what you do at work, you work in HR and you think, oh, I m never gonna use a lot of this stuff, but I like Art of Charm, suddenly you re like, wait a minute, I could totally champion a flexible time off policy and I need to use the following research to do it.
0
SPEAKER_01
So this actually does make sense.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I know you have a lot of topics that you ve discussed both in Under New Management and in your previous work that will apply to literally everybody watching slash listening to this right now.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, absolutely.
0
SPEAKER_00
So missing creativity is the exact same thing.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s here are a bunch of examples that we love to celebrate from creative companies.
0
SPEAKER_00
But here s the science behind it.
0
SPEAKER_00
And can we apply it.
0
SPEAKER_00
And there are various different ways we can do that you don t have to do the exact same thing as a Pixar to take advantage of what they do to make their work better.
0
SPEAKER_01
So what would you suggest we start with if we are sitting here and we re thinking, look, I m not the boss, I don t own a company, how do I start to implement these things on my own?
0
SPEAKER_01
Or something of your work on my own?
0
SPEAKER_00
right now.
0
SPEAKER_01
What does that actually mean?
0
SPEAKER_01
I ve never heard that.
0
SPEAKER_00
So it refers to like your Zappos companies and medium to some extent, but they re not a direct user of company, which shall not be named because I don t want to pay any more money.
0
SPEAKER_00
I m kidding.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s this idea of no managers, self driven teams, all of that sort of stuff, which is on one level.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yes, that s great.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right.
0
SPEAKER_00
And it s great if it can work for you.
0
SPEAKER_00
But if you re not in the position to say if you re a peon, you can t say we should have no managers.
0
SPEAKER_00
Doesn t make any sense.
0
SPEAKER_01
Right.
0
SPEAKER_01
It s a little self-serving at that point.
0
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, but the research underlying it actually deals with a fascinating study of teams and networks.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so, one of the things I hear often when I listen to AOC is that idea that you re the average of the five people you hang out with most.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right.
0
SPEAKER_00
When we think about that in a corporate example or in any work example, we know we ve got our four or five people that we trust to do all of our work.
0
SPEAKER_00
And we go back to them over and over and over again.
0
SPEAKER_00
One of the side benefits of writing the org chart and pencil, having more of these self-managed teams, is that we start to build teams out of the needs of the project, instead of just who reports to who.
0
SPEAKER_00
So the last time I had a manager, we had seven people that directly reported to her, so we were her team.
0
SPEAKER_00
Well, we re not really her team, we do a bunch of different stuff.
0
SPEAKER_00
we just all report to that one person.
0
SPEAKER_00
The research side shows that the best teams are actually better to sort of come together, work on a project, and then go back into the network and the ether.
0
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, you might be the average of the five people you hang out with most, but it shouldn t be the same five people for this project as it is for this project as it is for this project.
0
SPEAKER_00
You need that kind of refreshing of old and new connections.
0
SPEAKER_01
One thing I thought was funny about the book was you re talking about all of these bigger companies, Netflix, and I almost said Blockbuster, but that s... I think we probably do mention them, but it s sort of an obituary.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yes, but other companies, even Google tech companies like that, or General Motors, Ford, and things like that, a lot of what you re recommending in the book
0
SPEAKER_01
I look at our small business with sub-20 employees and go, wait a minute, this is the only way we can work flexible team structures because we don t have a bunch of external teams and all these different things.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yes, we do have to communicate regularly using these tools because what else are we gonna do?
0
SPEAKER_01
We re all distributed.
0
SPEAKER_01
So it s funny to see these big companies go, ah, how do we solve this problem that we ve been having forever?
0
SPEAKER_01
And the solution comes probably from necessity out of a small business, back up through academic studies, through your book and your teaching, and then back down to these big companies.
0
SPEAKER_01
And they go, this Berkus guy s a genius.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t get the credit all the time.
0
SPEAKER_00
I wish I did.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t deserve the credit.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, again, all I m doing is pointing out
0
SPEAKER_00
Thank you so much.
0
SPEAKER_00
I was pointing out those connections.
0
SPEAKER_00
And again, the other benefit that that smaller, you know, sub 20, or even sub 100 companies have is they can experiment when you write 10,000 people, changing something is a big deal.
0
SPEAKER_00
When you ve got 10, you can just go back to doing the way it was last week.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that s the same way that a lot of the academics find stuff right through experimentation, right, design a study, etc.
0
SPEAKER_00
So that s really the key.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that s another thing that kind of applies whether you re just working individually,
0
SPEAKER_00
and teams, or whether you even want to take it outside of work, is that idea of constantly experimenting and figuring out what s working for you.
1
SPEAKER_03
everybody stole this quote, you re the average of the five people you spend most of your time with, or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_03
I really thought it was you.
1
SPEAKER_03
Of course, naturally.
1
SPEAKER_03
And in the book, I should say, you mentioned that a lot of teams will work together, and a lot of times, people move on, they move into different industries, they go into different warehouses, or silos, where they work in different things, different companies, different industries.
1
SPEAKER_03
Your network then expands if you treat it right, and one of the things we talk about the most at Art of Charm is networking.
1
SPEAKER_03
We teach it at our live events, we teach it at our boot camps, we re constantly working on these skill sets.
1
SPEAKER_03
How can people who are transitioning jobs both use that to increase their network, maybe the non-obvious way that you re just meeting a whole bunch of new people, but also maintain the connections in your old job or your old industry so that they don t just become people you used to work with and instead become part of your greater
1
SPEAKER_02
network.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that second part is the really key thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
So if I can get a bit nerdy for a second, please do.
1
SPEAKER_02
There s this awesome study of engineers in a lot of different firms.
1
SPEAKER_02
Engineers essentially work on things that then get patented.
1
SPEAKER_02
So because of patent, the way patents work, we can actually track engineers through different companies.
1
SPEAKER_02
When you re filing a patent, you file everybody that s worked on it, your sort of current network, but you also file other patents.
1
SPEAKER_02
You have to reference the other patents that influence it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Total side other nerdy thing, Thomas Edison s actual patent for the light bulb.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s called improvement in electric light because it incites Jonathan Starr s patent, which was the actual inventor of the light bulb.
1
SPEAKER_02
He died on a transatlantic voyage back from Britain, so we never talk about stuff.
1
SPEAKER_02
Anyway, from the nerdy thing over here, back to over here.
1
SPEAKER_02
So one of the things that s really interesting, and a lot of people argue to sort of limit mobility and shut down communication with people when they leave.
1
SPEAKER_02
We think the obvious, if somebody goes from firm A to firm B,
1
SPEAKER_02
then they re going to take all of the knowledge they learned at Firm A and use it to do their work at Firm B. So clearly Firm B benefits from this person s knowledge.
1
SPEAKER_02
New person from an old network coming over.
1
SPEAKER_02
But what we actually find is that a lot of the information from Firm B migrates back to Firm A. So people who remain are now citing patents that were developed in Firm B because that person who moved has become that structural hole we were joking about earlier.
1
SPEAKER_02
They re that sort of linchpin that s putting them together.
1
SPEAKER_02
The biggest thing I think for this is a lot of times people do exactly what you said.
1
SPEAKER_02
They treat former co-workers, employees, and all that sort of stuff just as that, former employees.
1
SPEAKER_02
They don t make an honest effort to sort of keep in touch with them.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it doesn t take much.
1
SPEAKER_02
It takes maybe a quarterly check-in, maybe an annual thing, depending on the nature of the relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
But it s hugely important for that.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I know from AOC you ve talked about before the idea of finding jobs.
1
SPEAKER_02
from weak ties, right, because the people that you re with and close to don t have any more information than you do.
1
SPEAKER_02
The people who are out in there, the only way you can kind of get the permission, keep in touch with them, is to have that kind of regularly check in with people so that you re keeping ties on.
1
SPEAKER_01
Hey, Art of Charm listeners, I m excited to share a new podcast I ve been absolutely binging.
1
SPEAKER_01
Winning is an everyday mindset, and Craig Robinson and John Calipari are here to help.
1
SPEAKER_01
On Ways to Win podcast, Craig and Coach Cal use their on-court wisdom to solve your off-court problems.
1
SPEAKER_01
Whether it s trouble at home or a workplace dilemma, the coaches will help you find a winning formula for success.
1
SPEAKER_01
You ll hear from prominent athletes, business leaders, and celebrities who reveal insights that made them into the leaders they are today.
1
SPEAKER_01
And don t miss President Obama sharing how he deals with pressure by projecting confidence, believing in your team, and taking criticism.
1
SPEAKER_01
Listen to Ways to Win wherever you get your podcasts.
1
SPEAKER_00
Over the last 17 years, we have launched our fair share of online courses, coaching programs, and finding the right platform has always been a challenge.
1
SPEAKER_01
They say if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life.
1
SPEAKER_01
But if you re an entrepreneur, you know the hard work that comes with it.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s why you need Kajabi.
1
SPEAKER_01
Kajabi makes it easy to run your entire online business from one platform so you can focus on what you love, creating.
1
SPEAKER_00
Kajabi is the ultimate all-in-one platform that helps creators and entrepreneurs build successful online businesses by unlocking predictable recurring revenue.
1
SPEAKER_01
No matter your niche, Kajabi makes it easy to turn your skills, passions, and experiences into enriching online courses, exclusive membership sites, subscription podcasts, thriving communities, personalized coaching, and more.
1
SPEAKER_00
The best part, Kajabi doesn t cut into your revenue because everything is owned and controlled by you.
1
SPEAKER_00
So keep 100% of what you earn.
1
SPEAKER_01
And with Kajabi, you also get robust analytics, easy payment options, email marketing tools, and customizable website templates, all built in.
1
SPEAKER_00
You don t even need a huge audience to make sustainable income.
1
SPEAKER_00
There are thousands of creators on Kajabi making six and seven figures with less than 50,000 followers.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right now, Kajabi is offering a free 30-day trial to start your business.
1
SPEAKER_01
If you go to kajabi.com slash charm, that s K-A-J-A-B-I.com slash charm.
1
SPEAKER_00
Go to kajabi.com slash charm and join the creators and entrepreneurs who have made over $7 billion.
1
SPEAKER_03
Is there a way to systemize this?
1
SPEAKER_03
I hate to use the word automate when it comes to people, but I think having a system for, oh, I should probably do this now, is a good move, especially for those of us that maybe have a lot of different connections in a lot of different industries.
1
SPEAKER_03
It s hard to keep people top of mind.
1
SPEAKER_03
In fact, it s impossible to actually keep everybody top of mind.
1
SPEAKER_02
There are automated systems that you can use.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, there s software that you can use even, like, I don t know if you use Contactually or those sorts of things.
1
SPEAKER_02
I have.
1
SPEAKER_02
I found like it didn t add much.
1
SPEAKER_03
It doesn t, for me, necessarily do what I need it to.
1
SPEAKER_02
And the reason is you can also just kind of make it a habit.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like, one thing that all of the social networks that are free are really good at is keeping you updated on other people s lives.
1
SPEAKER_03
Social media, if it s good for one thing, it s making you feel probably badly about everybody in your immediate and not so immediate circle.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right.
1
SPEAKER_02
let s say it s a habit of like, take a person today when you see something actually comment, not comment on it on Facebook, commented on it by sending them a more personal message, an email, a text call, or whatever, like you ve got this feed in front of you all day long of what other people are up to.
1
SPEAKER_02
And what do we do, we just kind of scroll through it, because we re trying to like, like it, right, or we click like, and we think we re done.
1
SPEAKER_02
But again, it s showing that meaningful connection that you re making an effort to stay in touch with them.
1
SPEAKER_02
And to think back to the reciprocation and the trusting, the thing that I ve been amazed with is it goes backwards too.
1
SPEAKER_02
So when I make an effort to stay up to date on what you re up to, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
You had someone steal your bathroom scale, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
And I send you- It was not a bathroom scale, it was a toilet seat.
1
SPEAKER_02
You re right, it was a toilet seat.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was even worse than- No, but see, but what did I do?
1
SPEAKER_02
Remember, so you had that, and then running through a bunch of other stuff.
1
SPEAKER_02
Well, there was a bathroom scale thing, because I emailed that to you.
1
SPEAKER_02
Do you remember this?
1
SPEAKER_03
You said, in case you want something even more fancy.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was like a scale that weighs you while you re on the toilet, which is the ultimate, like, nobody needs this.
1
SPEAKER_02
But it tied back to that thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so it s really just making a habit of that.
1
SPEAKER_02
There are things throughout your whole day that remind you of people you used to have in your network.
1
SPEAKER_02
And we do nothing about it.
1
SPEAKER_02
We do nothing about it.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s a really good point.
1
SPEAKER_02
I never thought about that.
1
SPEAKER_02
So just making a habit to do that.
1
SPEAKER_02
I did that before, contextually.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so to me, it was sort of annoying that every 30 days, we d say, reach out to this person.
1
SPEAKER_02
Actually, I did.
1
SPEAKER_03
I texted him about a toilet seat.
1
SPEAKER_03
Go away, contractually.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it takes like five seconds, literally, I m asking for five seconds a day of that time when something happens that reminds you of Bob.
1
SPEAKER_02
Text Bob.
1
SPEAKER_03
This is so ridiculously simple that I m irritated that I didn t think of it before because.
1
SPEAKER_03
Well, and also that I totally did it to you and revealed the mind trick thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I still didn t even get it.
1
SPEAKER_03
It s a brilliant point because we do check Facebook, many of us slash most of us do check Facebook or Twitter or Instagram, whatever.
1
SPEAKER_03
Or LinkedIn, if you still have one of those.
1
SPEAKER_03
Well, I don t know what that is.
1
SPEAKER_03
I ve heard of that somewhere.
1
SPEAKER_03
If you look at this feed, you see things people are up to.
1
SPEAKER_03
They re getting married, they ve got a dog, their dog and then went for a walk on a nice beach.
1
SPEAKER_03
Even if it s a really simple, non-pivotal life moment, they don t have to be getting engaged or have a loss.
1
SPEAKER_03
You can still send that person a text.
1
SPEAKER_03
You can also click like, don t feel bad, you ll still get your little dopamine rush.
1
SPEAKER_03
You can click like, and then you can text them and say, I didn t know you got a puppy that s so fun.
1
SPEAKER_03
Enjoy that, or whatever it is that you want, or joke.
1
SPEAKER_03
It s much easier to do that.
1
SPEAKER_03
And it breaks through this, there s a wall there between social media and the rest of your real life.
1
SPEAKER_03
And this breaks through that, where clearly they know that you found out about it through social media, so it s not creepy, because it s public information.
1
SPEAKER_03
that they want you to.
1
SPEAKER_03
They want you to see this, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
It s out there.
1
SPEAKER_03
And instead of going, I m going to interact with you like everybody else that doesn t really know you or you haven t talked to in 20 years interacts with you.
1
SPEAKER_03
You just say, I m skipping the gatekeeper.
1
SPEAKER_03
I m walking past the secretary, you know, the virtual secretary, and I m going to go straight to your phone.
1
SPEAKER_02
And you have no idea how special that makes the person feel because you thought of them, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
was something Yeah, we want likes we want the little dopamine hit exactly said what we never expect to have happen is two weeks later, somebody who saw that two weeks from now saw something else in their everyday life, and thought to send it to us because of something we
1
SPEAKER_03
So it creates more meaningful exchange, and instead of having it on some sort of automated software, we simply rely on our social media feeds to do pretty much the same thing.
1
SPEAKER_03
And in real life, I use also real life to remind me of people.
1
SPEAKER_03
It s weird, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
I use real life as a tool for other real relationships in my real life.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yes, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_03
I saw somebody who looked like one of our mutual friends, but was much, much older, and I ended up kind of sneakily, speaking of being creepy, taking a picture of this person at an airport eating like a burrito or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_03
And I said it to him, and I was like, this is you in 20 years, and that sparked this conversation that went for the next few minutes while I was waiting for the plane.
1
SPEAKER_03
I don t have to have an automated follow-up sequence or even be looking at social media to see that.
1
SPEAKER_03
And for guys like you and I, for entrepreneurs who are constantly marketing with media, like, check out our latest thing.
1
SPEAKER_03
It s hard to do that, because you don t want to message someone like, good luck with your launch, every week that their thing launches.
1
SPEAKER_03
You want a little bit more personal connection.
1
SPEAKER_03
And if you just use your imagination out in the wild, you can see a car that reminds you.
2
SPEAKER_00
that reminds you of that person or a restaurant that reminds you of that person.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s so deceptively easy.
2
SPEAKER_00
I never thought about that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Or even just remembering a certain date or remembering whatever it is.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ll give you another example.
2
SPEAKER_01
Adam Grant, he wrote a whole piece about how virtual friends aren t friends.
2
SPEAKER_01
So Adam Grant is not a friend of mine because we re not real life friends.
2
SPEAKER_01
But we interact often.
2
SPEAKER_01
He blurbed my book, et cetera.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I remember reading on social media that he was prepping to give a TED Talk.
2
SPEAKER_01
This was like a month before he actually went.
2
SPEAKER_01
to do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then I also because I ve been to Ted active, which is like the low rent, Ted, budget, economies, it s the clarion economy.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, no, I mean, it s actually more fun because you get that.
2
SPEAKER_01
But anyway, that s a whole other talk about that.
2
SPEAKER_01
I saw the schedule.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so I saw exactly what day it was.
2
SPEAKER_01
And literally, it was the night before
2
SPEAKER_01
he was gonna go on because I just saw that and it made me think like, oh yeah, I remember he s been working hard on that because I saw that thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so I sent him just a quick email that was like, hey, good luck tomorrow.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you have no idea how special that makes me feel.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then you actually mentioned it when you were saying at the airport it turned into like a four or five minute thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s the other key, is you have that and then you go, so what s new with you?
2
SPEAKER_01
And I literally had somebody do this to me yesterday, sending out a little thing, we went back and forth and then, so what s new with you?
2
SPEAKER_01
That s when you get the update from your network on stuff you might not be aware of, et cetera.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that s a really good point, asking, parlaying that into a conversation, so what s new in your world, or what s new with you, or how s the wife and kids, something that s really standard, but also encourages them to respond.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because what you don t want, and this is something that I get sometimes, that actually, I won t say drives me crazy, it s not that level elevated, but it really puts a bad taste in my mouth, when somebody sees
2
SPEAKER_00
Hey, I see you ve got this going on.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let me know if you need help with this.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s two shades of this, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
There s let me know if you need help with this.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you re like, wow, thanks.
2
SPEAKER_00
I could really use help doing this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or I ll let you know I might need help doing this.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it could be something for business or personal.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then there s the guy or girl who says, let me know if you need help with this.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you just know what they mean is.
2
SPEAKER_00
I am happy to take your money for services rendered in this department.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, let me know if you need help marketing.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not like, oh, you re going to share it with your followers on social media.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s the good side, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
And then the negative side is, yeah, I know you re a digital marketer and you want to do some Facebook ad campaign and you re basically plumbing our friendship here.
2
SPEAKER_00
to try to fish for client leads, and it s really distasteful.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you gotta be a little bit careful to make sure you re offering real value or real friendship, and not just, hey, let me know if you need a financial manager, here s my card, because that gets you axed from busy people s lives.
2
SPEAKER_01
And to me, that s the reason that any of these automated regular systems of advice break down, is that they re not authentic.
2
SPEAKER_01
What we re talking about is just a habit.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s a habit that you live, and then people remember, like, wow, you re that guy.
2
SPEAKER_00
You remember those things.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, like you said, it becomes a habit that is a positive one for you that creates meaningful exchange versus, oh, this piece of software dinged me and said, it s time to send the forum email to you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hi, how are you doing?
2
SPEAKER_01
Then here s my pitch for whatever project I m working on now type thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like a bad Christmas letter from somebody you don t care about.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like, me and the kids, we re stranded on the side of I-405 for three hours changing a flat, and I m halfway through the letter, I m going, wait, who is this person?
2
SPEAKER_01
Who is this?
2
SPEAKER_01
And I have to ask my mom who this person is.
2
SPEAKER_01
And isn t the purpose of those letters just to get people to feel like their life is way cooler?
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, that was the original paper, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
The Christmas letter.
2
SPEAKER_01
The once a year summary of how awesome our life is.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, here s a picture of me and my grandkids who are young and good looking and healthy.
2
SPEAKER_00
How s your miserable, lonely life going?
2
SPEAKER_00
Right, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s a great, actually it reminds me, there s a great David Sedaris essay.
2
SPEAKER_01
in, he s the comedian in, I think it s Holidays on Ice or whatever, that is, it s like the world s worst Christmas letter.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it s brutal in its honesty of what s going wrong.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s also hilarious.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that makes me want to write the world s worst Christmas letter.
2
SPEAKER_01
Here s all the terrible stuff that happens this year.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hope you feel better about your season.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s brilliant, but the problem is, I feel like with a really good circle around you, you d have all these people trying to help you and you just don t deserve it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because your life is actually really great.
2
SPEAKER_00
And everyone s just annoyed that you feel like it s not and that you need help.
2
SPEAKER_00
One of the things that I saw in your work as well is
2
SPEAKER_00
Your performance at work isn t just about you, but speaking of who you surround yourself with, it actually becomes better or probably worse depending on who you surround yourself with.
2
SPEAKER_00
Tell us how this works and what we can do to maximize the benefit from this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so let me get nerdy again.
2
SPEAKER_00
So this is a fascinating study.
2
SPEAKER_00
You got the Batman shirt on.
2
SPEAKER_01
Licensed to nerd.
2
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
2
SPEAKER_01
So this is a fascinating study by a guy named Boris Groisberg, who is already like, we got this deep sounding academic
2
SPEAKER_01
Props on remembering that name.
2
SPEAKER_01
I pull out that one often and I pull out Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi whenever I just want to sound smart.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because no one can write that one down.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, and if you just say it like Boris Grossberg says, whatever, you sound smart.
2
SPEAKER_01
So Boris Grossberg says.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re bridging that academic and practical world even now.
2
SPEAKER_01
So, Boris and his team studied ranked analysts and institutional investors.
2
SPEAKER_01
And what that means is, there s this magazine called Institutional Investor or Institutional Investors.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sounds very exciting.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, what it is, is it s a magazine about those big people that manage pension funds, hedge funds, big investments, the stuff you and I are priced out of, so we buy index funds and whatever.
2
SPEAKER_01
Not to get into a Tony Robbins interview, but you know, this is what we do.
2
SPEAKER_00
Managing like the NYPD pension fund or the teachers fund, got it.
2
SPEAKER_01
So all of those people are making their decisions based on reports that are written by analysts on here s the state of the industry, here s the state of this company, et cetera.
2
SPEAKER_01
These analysts get paid a lot of money because their job is to study this report, et cetera.
2
SPEAKER_01
So Institutional Investor runs an annual ranking of who are the best.
2
SPEAKER_01
They survey all the people who are running the NYPD pension fund and they ask who gives you the best information, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
So these are the star players
2
SPEAKER_01
and they get ranked one, two, three, and an honorable mention.
2
SPEAKER_01
These are the star players, and you can imagine, once you hit that ranking, the phone rings a lot, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because people want to snatch you away and get you to work at this other firm.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re literally worth as much money as people can throw at you times one variable.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, you think that, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s why they call.
2
SPEAKER_01
What Groysberg studied was what happens to performance once these people move over.
2
SPEAKER_01
And he found that in most cases, the performance just drops.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now, back to David Berkus.
2
SPEAKER_00
As soon as you start doing really well and you get popular, you tank?
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, if you move, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because what you re doing is you re saying, yeah, it s all me, it s my knowledge, et cetera.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, you switch firms.
2
SPEAKER_01
You switch firms, you answer the headhunter call, and you switch firms, your performance tanks.
2
SPEAKER_01
And there s an exception to this, actually.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s two exceptions, which I think is really cool.
2
SPEAKER_01
The first one is women, which is interesting, but the rationale for this is that because they re sort of not an old boys network, women actually have to take more deliberate steps to build their network, to build resources, to get things, and when they re planted at a new firm, they ll be able to do that better, because they ve already refined it.
2
SPEAKER_01
The second one is what they call lift outs, which is you re a star player, so we re going to purchase your entire team.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, imagine if I ran a radio show, or a radio network, and I said, Jordan, Art of Charm, it s awesome, I want to hire you, but I left Jason.
2
SPEAKER_01
That would not happen.
2
SPEAKER_01
I have to bring your whole team because you can t do that level of performance without your whole team, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
That s what grows for its research found.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s why these star performers tank except those lift outs when we re with us.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, that begs this question of like, how much is performance and by some cases, 60% of individual performance can actually be explained by the team that you re on the company that you re in the resources you have all that sort of stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is going straight to Jason s head right now.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everybody on my production staff who s hearing this right now is gonna ask for a raise tomorrow.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I apologize.
2
SPEAKER_01
But they also know they can t go anywhere else because they re not gonna do their best work either.
2
SPEAKER_00
I like it, it s a two-way street.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, so even if you don t work in HR, even if you re not a recruiter, there s that realization.
2
SPEAKER_01
And we re like, especially in the United States, we re super individualistic.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s all about me, it s my performance, and if I can get more money to go over here, I m going.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, you probably aren t gonna take all that talent with you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Talent s not as portable as we thought.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s that realization.
2
SPEAKER_01
And even if you re a solopreneur, which I know you don t like that term.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t have anything against it, really.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s just like many terms these days, just being beaten up by overuse.
2
SPEAKER_01
But even if you work for yourself, you re entirely self-employed, I bet there is a team of probably 10 people who work for other firms but supply you and interact with you, that you do your best work because of those people as well.
2
SPEAKER_00
I wonder if this transfers to our personal relationships.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it seems obvious that some people aren t as good or as happy without their significant other, but I wonder if this transfers to people just being around familial relationships or something like that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you have any idea?
2
SPEAKER_01
So I don t know any, the academic in me goes, I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t know any research on that.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I would suspect it is because what we have is that behavior is a function of personality and the environment.
2
SPEAKER_01
So at work, behavior is a function of your individual personality, talents, the things you bring to the table and the environment that you re in.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the same thing applies, that I know applies in any field.
2
SPEAKER_01
Your behavior, how you act is a function of your personality and your environment.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s why whenever you go home for Thanksgiving or Christmas, you turn back into that 18-year-old townie kid that goes back into the old vaults, because you re around that old sort of environment.
2
SPEAKER_01
which tells us that the environment and the people you re around sort of shapes your behavior, and you ve got to be very deliberate about that.
2
SPEAKER_01
I actually just, maybe two days ago, cut somebody out of sort of my life because they basically sent me this kind of just a jealous email thing, and it was about how like, oh, you re now doing the messenger role, but you ve had no experience, and I wrote him back, and I was like, okay, one, I had five plus years in the pharmaceutical industry before I made it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, sorry, but well, we re here talking, so you didn t get the second part.
2
SPEAKER_01
Literally, the second part was goodbye.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, we re just done.
2
SPEAKER_01
At this point, you re not adding sort of to it, and in fact, every time I interact with you, I m gonna think about this.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s gonna affect how we interact.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like, split here, so long, and thanks for all the fish.
2
SPEAKER_00
is strictly to put you in your place, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Which is completely self-serving for the other person.
2
SPEAKER_00
All it does is make you annoyed with them.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s no good can ever come of that.
2
SPEAKER_00
When people send that stuff, I always wonder, what s your ideal outcome here?
2
SPEAKER_00
You go, you know what, you re right.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m going to stop writing books and I m going to stop speaking.
3
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, I m going to shut the whole thing down because... You called me out, you got me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because I always wonder what s the ideal outcome.
3
SPEAKER_01
So to go back, you actually hinted at this earlier, is this idea that you have to remind yourself there s real world and virtual world.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think people don t think their behavior in the virtual world crosses that barrier.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like I found this when I launched Underdog Management, obviously I sent a lot of emails and did a lot of promotion over a very short period of time.
3
SPEAKER_02
I noticed a lot of them, right.
3
SPEAKER_01
And most people either like, you know, do what I want, which is help me by buying a copy, etc.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or just ignore it and know like, this is that season.
3
SPEAKER_01
But there s people who just want to like let off steam and write that and they don t realize there s like a person on the other side of it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so most people s advice is like, just ignore the haters.
3
SPEAKER_01
Scott Stratton would say like, you don t have to be a jerk whisperer.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you don t have to get through to them.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I actually wrote back to every single person and said, like, hey, here s where I m at.
3
SPEAKER_01
this is a really big thing, I ve been providing two years of free value leading up to this, and I thought it was an ask, I m sorry.
3
SPEAKER_01
95% of people wrote back, and they re like, you re right, I was just frustrated, I got too many things in my email inbox, whatever.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it s really weird what happens when we have this virtual and this real world, and when you act like a person in this one, people are reminded that they are also people, and not just brains uploaded to a server, and act more human.
3
SPEAKER_02
That will eventually be the case.
3
SPEAKER_01
Ray Kurzweil tells me,
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_02
I did buy a copy.
3
SPEAKER_02
I do a lot of audiobooks, and I noticed it wasn t your voice.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, sorry about that.
3
SPEAKER_02
I was really looking forward to you lulling me to sleep.
3
SPEAKER_02
I was looking forward to lulling you to sleep, too.
3
SPEAKER_02
And yet, nothing.
3
SPEAKER_02
I got some random guy who s narrated a bunch of other books.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, so, I mean, a lot of
3
SPEAKER_01
that I need to sell more books.
3
SPEAKER_01
So they take me more serious.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right?
3
SPEAKER_01
I guess a lot of like, I wish authors had a hand in but there s a lot that I don t think we sold the contract and they re like a powerhouse.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re like, No, we got this like literally, within like, I think it was two weeks, they had the audio book version done.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a little depressing because it took me two years to write the thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then like, Oh, yeah, we got it.
3
SPEAKER_01
We already recorded it.
3
SPEAKER_01
We got our house, a middle American male voice from Dayton, Ohio, killing it on the mic.
3
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, he did.
3
SPEAKER_02
I did a good job.
3
SPEAKER_01
I actually admittedly, I haven t listened to it yet.
3
SPEAKER_01
sick of the material by now, I would imagine.
3
SPEAKER_01
We won t say sick of it.
3
SPEAKER_01
But you know, the material intellectual ADHD.
3
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, I m looking at other things already.
3
SPEAKER_02
I ll tell you, from a voiceover perspective, I do a lot of voiceover work, and doing audiobooks is a nightmare, I never want to do it, because you have to read the whole book.
3
SPEAKER_02
If you do it well, you re supposed to read the whole book, then you read the whole book again, and you mark it up, and you do story arcs, and different, oh, the intonation should be like this here, it should be like that there, it should do this.
3
SPEAKER_02
Then you do it again with either a director or solo, and you create the audiobook product, and then usually, this is very unique to audiobooks only, usually you as the voiceover person
3
SPEAKER_02
for that audiobook, you have to edit it as well.
3
SPEAKER_02
Or you hire a producer to do so.
3
SPEAKER_02
They have their in-house guy, they probably do that separately.
3
SPEAKER_02
But that wasn t the first time that guy read your book.
3
SPEAKER_02
I guarantee if you run into that guy now, whoever it was.
3
SPEAKER_02
He s more bored than all of us put together because he had to read it multiple times slowly enough to be edited into, I mean, you know audiobooks are read about
3
SPEAKER_02
maybe a quarter of the speed you could read it normally.
3
SPEAKER_02
And he s got to do it multiple times.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you and I both did Michael and Amy Seropov speaking thing, content mapping, et cetera.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s interesting to hear you say that, because right up until the edit your own part, I was like, that s everything I do when I prep a speech.
3
SPEAKER_02
Except your book was 16 and a half hours or something like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
High five.
3
SPEAKER_01
You slogged through it.
3
SPEAKER_02
I saw it through it at maybe a multiple of that, so it was like 1.5x or something, but still, that s a lot of cycling is when that happened.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, so it was my book when you posted that thing about people who listen to him on speed, how do you do it?
3
SPEAKER_02
I m on it.
3
SPEAKER_02
I got a lot of content to get through here, so I thought it was pretty interesting that you didn t get to do your own book.
3
SPEAKER_02
There are a lot of authors that do get to voice over their own book that don t have speaking chops or presentation chops at all, and they still get to voice over their book, so it just was your agent
3
SPEAKER_01
or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_01
So let me ask you this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Are you disappointed when you find that?
3
SPEAKER_01
Did you ever not buy a book because it was somebody else doing it?
3
SPEAKER_02
At first I bought a couple audio books and thought, I don t care if the author voices them over, it s stupid.
3
SPEAKER_02
I don t care what this person sounds like.
3
SPEAKER_02
But bear in mind, now I m interviewing more than 90% of the authors whose work I m reading.
3
SPEAKER_02
So it s weird for me to listen to an entire book and then talk to the real person and go, why did they hire somebody else to do this book?
3
SPEAKER_02
It makes no sense.
3
SPEAKER_02
So now I am disappointed when it s not the author.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I don t know if I would not buy it, because they still have to prep for the show, but it is so stupid, in my opinion, to not have the author do it.
3
SPEAKER_02
I totally understand why they don t.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s actually a talent slash performance that many people who are great writers cannot do and should not do.
3
SPEAKER_02
But for me, as an interviewer, I m in this unique position where I m gonna hear your real voice anyway, I d like to be used to it, and I d like to remember you saying things that I heard in your book, which is not happening if it s two different voices.
3
SPEAKER_02
till right now.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re linking to it in the show notes.
3
SPEAKER_01
intimacy to get to their brain than just reading a page or whatever maybe it s that virtual real separation or whatever and I ve always made that case it s always failed but I ve always made that case to the publisher like no it ll be worth it in the end it sounds like I mean at least for you it s worth it for the better experience it was worth it for them because they didn t have to bug you to finish the audiobook and they have a studio and a guy that knows how to use
3
SPEAKER_02
I think it s worth it for them, and it s a lot less work for you, but if this is your seminal work on XYZ s subject, it seems like it should only be you presenting it.
3
SPEAKER_02
I would never let anyone else voice over my book that I don t have yet.
3
SPEAKER_02
Thanks so much for coming in.
3
SPEAKER_02
Is there anything else that you want to present to the AOC fans that I have not asked you yet?
3
SPEAKER_01
We hit the nail on the head, we talked a lot about it.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s a ton of resources in the book, and obviously if you re disappointed because I m not reading the audio book, there s a ton of resources on my site, davidbergis.com, to check out.
3
SPEAKER_01
The biggest lesson of all of this is there is value when you bridge that gap.
3
SPEAKER_01
Whatever your cluster and your network is, there s probably other people and other sources of knowledge that can help you figure out how to do your life better, and if you can figure out how to bridge that gap, you re gonna be a lot more successful.
3
SPEAKER_02
Thank you so much.
3
SPEAKER_02
Thank you.
3
SPEAKER_02
Good stuff.
3
SPEAKER_02
I love the idea of using social media feeds to keep up with your network.
3
SPEAKER_02
That is money.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, if there s one takeaway from this, and there were many, that is certainly it.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I think there s important concepts to be seen here about the productivity, the level of your network, how people around you affect you, how those teams can make or break you.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s a lot there for institutions and for individuals alike.
3
SPEAKER_02
So if you enjoyed that one, don t forget to thank David on Twitter.
3
SPEAKER_02
We ll link that in the show notes, as well as the other resources mentioned on the show.
3
SPEAKER_02
You can tap our album art and most mobile podcast players to see the cheat sheet for this episode.
3
SPEAKER_02
We ll link to the show notes right on your phone.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m also on Twitter, at The Art of Charm.
3
SPEAKER_02
On Twitter, I post articles, insights, and talk a lot with show fans and guests alike, so check that out if you re into that.
3
SPEAKER_02
We also want to encourage you to join us in our social capital challenge.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or in the USA only text charmed to 33444.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s all about improving your networking and connection skills and inspiring those around you to develop personal and professional relationships with you.
3
SPEAKER_02
We ll also email you our fundamentals toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m also doing regular videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward, and this will make you a better networker, it ll make you a better connector, and it ll make you a better thinker.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or text charmed to 33444.
3
SPEAKER_02
This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFilippo.
3
SPEAKER_02
Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
3
SPEAKER_02
Show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
3
SPEAKER_02
Now go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
3
SPEAKER_02
Now stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Thanks for listening to The Art of Charm.
3
SPEAKER_00
Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.