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Welcome, everybody, to the Advanced Selling Podcast, the long-standing sales training podcast, podcast history.
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My name is Brian Neal.
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And I m Bill Kasky.
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We are here every week for your listening enjoyment.
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I know some of you have been with us for years and years and years.
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We re so thankful of that.
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And some of you brand new.
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Glad you re here.
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Binge the show.
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700 plus episodes, 15 plus years.
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700.
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Is that right?
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How many do we have?
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900?
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400?
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1,000?
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Oh, my gosh.
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See?
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You stopped counting.
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I don t know.
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Yeah.
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But continuing on the quest to
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Help you be a better salesperson.
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What are we, on a quest, are we?
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I don t know.
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We started on a quest to start a podcast.
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Next thing you know, it s 15 years later and we ve got over a thousand episodes.
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And we have no quest.
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No idea where we re going.
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No quest, we don t know where we re going.
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I think our mission, I think one mission that I have is to have fun with you and share that fun with whoever cares about it.
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That s it though, cause.
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You guys have fun, you know.
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And you can t do this this long and not enjoy it.
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And we just enjoy it.
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We just really love doing it.
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I think the listeners, I think they understand that.
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Um, I was noticing we had a little thumbnail.
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So we re videoing the video recording.
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This, um, can t say videotape anymore.
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That shows my age.
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And, uh, we had a little thumbnail picture.
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It s a great picture.
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I think of me and bill both look really good in that picture.
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And I would say, so in my other job, we have these like headshots that we have in this kind of like, um, a book, like a directory.
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I was looking through that the other day.
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I m looking at these pictures of these people.
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I m like, this isn t this guy.
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And then I m like, wait a second, this guy s pictures from 25 years ago.
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I think that s interesting.
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That just reminded me of that a little bit.
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I wonder if people have like ID badges at work.
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And if you look at your ID badge, you know, it s your picture from 23 years ago.
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It s like your student ID from college.
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That s funny.
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Hanging on to it though, the best we can.
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Well, also our mission, obviously, is to help you and help you think through things in a new way.
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I was on a webinar the other night and we had to
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introduce ourselves.
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And one of the guys private messaged me, I didn t know who he was, and he was from India.
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And he said, Oh, I listen to you guys all the time.
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I have all my office listened.
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And I didn t, it wasn t a podcast related webinar, but you recognize the name.
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So yeah, we have listeners all over and we re really grateful for every last one of them.
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Fantastic.
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We love it.
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Yeah, we should say,
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We re going to talk today s topic is about a really important topic, very buzzy thing right now.
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It s come up a few times, a lot of things influencing this.
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And that topic is burnout.
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Burnout.
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We might even expand that to think about
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mental wellness for salespeople and business people.
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So it s gonna be kind of a reflective topic today and think, man, I m experiencing this burnout, so what should I do about it?
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So Bill and I are just gonna riff on it a little bit.
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Obviously, we ve got the, whatever you wanna call it in the Ukraine, which is just awful, my opinion.
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I know we have, Bill and I have strong opinions about it.
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We try to make this an apolitical show.
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Is that right, apolitical?
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Is that what I think?
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Yeah.
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But no bueno and just, what can you say?
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Everyone s like, well, sending thoughts and prayers.
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I m like, is that it?
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Feels like they need more than that.
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I don t know.
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Or I stand with Ukraine.
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Yeah, I know.
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I m not sure.
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I appreciate the sentiment of that, definitely.
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But you feel a little hopeless.
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You re helpless.
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You re helpless.
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You feel helpless.
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It s a really weird feeling to watch.
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And you just know people are just people over there.
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They re just in their houses, just living their lives, as far as I knew.
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Next thing you know, you know?
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There s a bomb headed, it s just awful.
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It s awful.
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So, and it, and it comes, and I just had this on a coaching call with one of my VP of sales peer groups that we run.
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There s a guy on there and he checked in and his check-in was like super low.
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And he s like, this Ukraine thing s got me spun out just emotionally and mentally.
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And I think there are a lot of you listening who are in this boat and it could be that it could be post COVID could be
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You know, we ve, we ve lived this great economy for so many years and people are tired.
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They re tired, worn out, burnout.
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So that s what we re going to talk about today.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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What to do about it.
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Yeah, I think that s good.
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I ve had that same kind of conversation with some of my clients and sometimes it doesn t come across as burnout or fatigue.
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It just comes across as anxiety, anxiousness, uh,
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I just, my company just continues to want more, more, more, more, more.
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And my goals go up every year and it doesn t feel like people are really taking into account some of the stuff going on.
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And I also know from a VP of sales or a CEO standpoint, you got numbers to make, you got speed and payroll to make and all that.
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Yep.
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But I do think mental health, mental wellness, whatever you want to call it, is a big issue, not just for salespeople, for all of us, but since we focus on that niche.
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Niche is, yes, one of the things that, like you said, it transcends everybody, no matter what you do.
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This applies to you.
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I do believe that selling is a performance-oriented sport.
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So when the pressure starts to cook, it tends to cook in the sales function.
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maybe sooner or sometimes more than it cooked in other places, if you will.
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Absolutely.
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You know, it s not to absolve, you know, I know manufacturing factories are slammed and restaurants are slammed, but you know, sales teams, they, it s always there.
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There s always a little of that performance pressure, I think more so than other places, so.
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And for a salesperson who needs to go out and communicate, whether it s Zoom or virtual or phone or face-to-face, you don t know what the person you re communicating with is feeling, too.
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So if they re burned out and blown up and their sentiments are depressed or whatever, you ve got to deal with that, too.
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So you may be fine, but you ve got to recognize that not everybody s fine.
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No, no.
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And if someone is fine, they re probably lying.
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How you doing?
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How you doing?
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Great.
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We re doing awesome.
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Fantastic.
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I love this war stuff.
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Nothing like coming home and tuning in to the 1,200 section on the TV where all the news stations are, going back and forth.
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That was one of my first, I know we re not into tips yet.
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No, let s go ahead.
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We can do it.
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I know for me, I have to turn off the TV.
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Yes.
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And I have a tendency to watch news shows way too much.
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And I ve scaled that all the way back.
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to I watch about 15 to 20 minutes of one show because I feel like I can get updated without the same thing over and over and over again.
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And I know people who come home at night and they watch three hours of whether it doesn t matter what channel and if it s all Ukraine and all war and all COVID and all death and all sad and all depressed, it will suck you dry.
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It just really will.
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And now, since the lines are blurred around that stuff and social media, it s nearly impossible.
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And you think, well, I m not going to watch the news tonight or the news channels.
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And so I ll see what s going on in Facebook.
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And then I go on Facebook, and there s a big rant about it or something else.
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And then I m off Facebook.
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So I ll go over down to the coffee shop, and you hear people talking about it.
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So it s really hard to.
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escape.
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I think I love that.
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It is I love the idea of that.
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That cleansing, so to speak, of your sources and what comes in your brain.
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I wrote down this idea of taking emotional inventory.
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I don t think we as salespeople and as humans really do this on a regular basis.
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And when I say take emotional inventory, I m talking about like an inventory, like saying, okay, what are some positive things I m just feeling in general right now?
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I m feeling content.
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I m feeling excited.
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I m feeling very happy.
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What are some negative emotions I m feeling right now?
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I m feeling very anxious.
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I m feeling very spent.
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I m feeling very drained.
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And I think you have to put some framework around that.
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I think a lot of people, like, I know a lot of therapists will give the recommendation, well, just journal, just journal.
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That personally for me hasn t worked well, because I just, I kind of get the paper out, get the pen, like, eh.
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But when you give me some framework around this, like, give me three positive emotions you re feeling right now, three negative, I can usually fill that out.
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So it s a little structure.
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So taking an emotional inventory is something I would have a listener do.
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regardless of how you think you re feeling.
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Cause the other thing I found is, you know, you think you re feeling a certain way until you like really open up yourself.
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You know, like, eh, maybe I m, am feeling some anxiousness.
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Yeah.
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I think that s good.
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I think it ll, it causes you to be much more self-aware than if you just tamp those things down in your, in your heart and your gut and you never acknowledge anything.
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I mean, like you say, even happy, even I m fricking excited about this.
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You know, you ve heard me say before when, when someone, when I asked someone in a,
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to go to a movie, and they say, sure.
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I always feel like, well, that s kind of a hell no, if you ask me.
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But it s OK to be on fire for something, even if it s on fire for some little tiny thing, like my LinkedIn post got 4,000 views.
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Oh, that s cool.
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Maybe I ought to pay attention to that and double down on that topic.
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Keep something simple.
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It doesn t have to be, I won the
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I won the award for world s greatest salesperson last year.
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That, too, could make you proud.
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Yes.
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It can be something subtle, for sure.
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I love that.
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I wonder, it seems like with all of the distractions, and I m going to take your burnout and just maybe substitute the word distractions, because we have a lot of distractions today, whether it s your manager, your spouse, even your own mind, or the media.
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I think we have to get back to, why are we here?
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What s the purpose of us being here on this planet at this time and in the business that you re in?
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Because business is eight to 10 hours a day, typically.
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It s a couple thousand hours a year that you are doing business, regardless of what function you re in.
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And I think we have to get back to purpose sometime.
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And nobody s really talking about that.
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And you wouldn t expect them to because that s kind of a vague and squishy kind of thing.
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But what else would drive you but your purpose?
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You know, when you go on a vacation and you re getting ready to drive to Wisconsin, your purpose is get to Wisconsin in the best possible way.
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And so you map your journey and you know where your milestones are.
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But if you have no purpose, we re going to take our family vacation.
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Kids, we re just going to drive aimlessly for six hours.
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And you know what?
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We re going to pitch a tent where we land.
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Nobody s going to be for that.
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No, no, correct.
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That s so important.
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And I think for sales teams, what do you think about that?
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Like salespeople sign up for selling for certain reasons.
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I think it s hard sometimes for a salesperson to get connected to purpose outside of the thing that they sell.
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And I think sometimes that spins what I mean by that.
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Let s say I sell, um, get a listener of ours.
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We know that sells, uh,
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chemical catalysts.
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You know, like, okay, so where is the drive behind that?
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You know what I mean?
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Now, for someone who loves chemistry and problem solving, they get really jonesed by that, but some people may not, yet they may be into something.
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They may be into the freedom of a sales role or to the ability to make a certain income that gives them a certain lifestyle.
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But what you re saying, Bill, is so important.
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And I don t think too many people are tuned into that.
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Do you?
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I just don t see too many salespeople that are tuned in if I say, what s your purpose as a salesperson?
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It s pretty, pretty surfacy.
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You know?
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And don t you think, and I ll take a little issue here, although I don t know if you meant it like this.
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I don t think making money for my family or making money so that I can retire when I m 60, 70 is a purpose.
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I think that might be a goal, but a purpose to me, if you re working 2,200 hours a year, if you multiply 40 hours a week times 52, it s about 2,200 hours.
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Let me do that in my head.
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Yeah.
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2,200.
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So I m going to invest half of my waking hours doing something.
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I d better have a little bit of interest and purpose in it.
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Even if the purpose is, I like to help people solve problems.
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I happen to be in the chemical, whatever you say, elastics, reagent business.
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That s just the business that I use to help people solve problems.
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If your purpose is to bring joy, solve problems, bring value, expand people s thinking, it doesn t matter what business you re in.
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That could be a good purpose.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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And to me, people are going to have whatever purpose they want.
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That s their business.
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I just don t think too many people have one.
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Or if they have it, I think they re making it up.
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You know what I mean?
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I think some industries, like what you and I are in, is a lot easier to connect with purpose than chemical reagent.
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Yeah.
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I ve been talking to some of our team salespeople.
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I can connect to some chemical reagent.
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Would you say plastics?
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You said something that was great.
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I love when business and salespeople try to talk science.
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They do it all the time.
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is that a salesperson had a really good month.
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And I said, you know, it s great that we did that.
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We got a big contract, got some money.
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I said, what you don t know yet, because she s newer, is there are gonna be some people in these classes, not many, there ll be a few people in these classes whose lives will be changed by the work that we do.
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You see it all the time, don t you, Bill?
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I mean, you see it and it s a thing.
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There s not many of them.
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It s a small group, but they re there.
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That s way better than the money.
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Way better than the money.
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And or anything else for that matter.
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So I had something here.
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So there s a model.
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We re videoing this, aren t we?
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Can I draw this little model up here?
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How much time we got?
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You encourage drawing?
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I encourage you to, yeah.
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Okay, thank you.
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If it takes like a half hour.
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But it might be a little sloppy.
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I should have drawn it earlier.
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So I m gonna make the good old fashioned kind of X, Y axis.
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And on the X axis, I put the word stress on here.
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And on the y-axis I put the word productivity Okay, and so then I put like a bell curve.
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So I ll hold this up see that bill So we get the x-axis here is stress and over here is like high this is low where the two lines meet is low and then up and down up and down there is the
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High productivity and low productivity.
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I m trying to keep good audio and hold my screen up, okay?
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This bell curve.
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In this middle part where stress is medium and productivity is high, that s like being in flow, in the zone, athletes call it.
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Well, over here where stress is, by the way, someone taught me this, I didn t make this up.
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I m like a weatherman, too, it s backwards, isn t it?
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When you stress it.
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I see a lot of reflection there.
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Can you turn the lights on?
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I know, do that, how s that?
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Oh, it s too late now, I m too far away.
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I don t have a clapper.
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Clap on, clap off.
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I wish I needed a clapper for my studio.
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When stress is high, productivity is low, we re in burnout phase.
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So this phase over here is burnout.
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That s what we re talking about over here.
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And then what burnout leads to is low productivity, low stress, which is rust.
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rust phase over here.
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And I learned this from a coach that I was using.
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And I used to try to fight my way through this thing.
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I fought through, he s like, dude, you gotta relax.
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You re just gonna rust.
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Rusting is part of just like rebuilding and breathing a little bit.
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And so I ve learned to just not fight through it.
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And I think so many times in sales, the answer is, we gotta go, Bill.
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You gotta fight through this.
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Get up and hitch up, right?
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Come on, power up.
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You can do it.
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Fight through the pain.
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You can do it.
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You know, and I m like that, you know.
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Yeah.
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What athlete who gets injured?
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Would the trainer ever tell, you know, I know you re, you re, you ve got a ruptured ACL, but you just got to fight through.
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You got to get, come on, man.
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You got to get back in there.
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I mean, nobody would do that.
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Especially not with an injury like that.
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Yeah.
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The player may decide to in the moment.
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And then often these, and again, you take a pro athlete, they re young and later on, they re like, that was really stupid.
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I should have done that.
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I should have just like been there in the pain.
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So I just think when we re in this burnout rust phase, don t fight through it so hard.
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Just be in it, you know?
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And I think being in it allows you to recharge and retool and that sort of thing versus being good.
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Yeah.
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So I got a couple of practices here that I went through a phase.
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I can t remember the years of last two years have been weird.
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I think it was early 2021.
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I m not sure where I was really just,
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kind of out of it mentally.
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I mean, I was still doing my work and hopefully I was providing good training, but I was, I would get done with the training and I would just kind of be exhausted.
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And that s not usually, usually when I get done with training, it s kind of like you, we re on fire.
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I mean, it s good.
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And, and I, you know, this happened, this occurred for like a month.
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And one thing that I did, I might ve shared this with you a few months ago,
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I started to record, I don t, I m not much of a journaler.
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I ve got all these journals, but I never have written one word in them.
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I got stack of journals because I thought all you had to do is buy the book.
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Yeah, right.
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Writes itself.
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Books aren t going to write themselves.
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Yeah.
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Peers aren t going to drink themselves.
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But I found that if I just went into my audio file on my computer and just shared, knowing that no one was going to listen to them, I could erase them at any time, but being brutally freaking honest about what I was feeling, why I think I was feeling it, why I m in this state.
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And you know what happens is you kind of come out of it because you ve gotten it out of you.
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And it s almost like you ve been honest with yourself.
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And part of your first tip there was just become super aware of your emotions.
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But other than just being aware of them and writing them down, which I think is good, speaking them is not bad either.
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I think that s why psychiatry works, is because you re actually giving voice to some of these things.
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And once you give voice to it, it kind of dissipates a little bit.
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It does.
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I love that idea.
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I did this for about probably two weeks.
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And I kind of found my way out of it.
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And I went back and listened to it.
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I gathered my family around.
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I said, hey, come on you guys.
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It s Christmas time.
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Come around the tree.
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Get the Bluetooth fired up.
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We re going to take a listen to, this is Dad s Feelings Journal.
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Yeah.
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Come on up.
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We re going to listen to the greatest hits.
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From 1987.
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I freaking hate my family.
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These people are a bunch of bloodsuckers.
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Yeah, perfect, right?
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I m going to skip this.
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run away from these.
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I feel so isolated in my own family.
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Whoa, fast forward that.
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Sorry.
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I was kidding.
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I was kidding you guys.
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I was teasing.
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That s so great though, Bill.
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It s a great, um,
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Cause I m like, like I mentioned earlier, I don t, journaling, this doesn t work for me.
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I ve never tried your idea.
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I think I might try it.
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Cause I, my little speech, I always say is that when I do say things, I ll say things that therapists or to mentor people for me, they lose their energy.
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The more people I share, especially something that might be negative inside of me, the more I share, the more it dissipate that you said, it just loses its energy.
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You suck the energy from it.
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I love that.
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Good stuff.
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And the other is just any kind of other practice that we can engage in, too.
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Tony Robbins, we ve talked about it.
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He talks about emotion comes from motion.
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And if you have bad emotion, it means you re just not moving enough.
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And whether that s running, walking,
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It could be a walk.
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It could be a walk with classical music on your ear buds.
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It could be something that where you re moving is a really good antidote to stress.
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And don t listen to MSNBC while you re walking.
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Listen to something that calms you and serves and nourishes you.
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Or an advanced podcast would be one such.
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That s what I would do.
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I would go there.
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I would, you know, one and a half times speed, get through a couple of episodes a walk.
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Or if you re interested in my depression, you could ask me, and I ll send you the 14 cuts those days and early 20s.
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Oh, these are, yeah.
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Brian and Bill s depression cuts.
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Bill, I ll make a double album of our depression cuts.
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That d be awesome, man.
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SRNFT, brother.
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SRNFT.
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Oh, it s so funny.
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It s great.
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I love it.
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Okay, good stuff.
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Well, we hope that you will send good vibes to you because we know this is a thing for people and we re everywhere.
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We re all in it.
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We re all doing it.
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So hopefully something we ve talked about today has touched you in some positive way, but it s a thing to go do or just a way to think about and you know, it s part of the human experience, isn t it?
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Yeah, comment on the LinkedIn.
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We ll make sure we put this on LinkedIn and comment.
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Let us know if this helped you at all.
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You don t have to share the deep, dark secrets, but if this helped you, if you got some kind of tip out of it, we d love to hear that.
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Love it.
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All right.
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See you next time.
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See you next time.
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Bye.