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In this episode of the Advanced Selling Podcast, we explore another famous flute solo from our rock and roll archives, I share for the first time in public an intimate story about me and my college BFF Matt, and we riff on a question from a burnout SDR listener who just can t do it anymore and give his manager advice on what to do about it.
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Hey, welcome back to the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest running sales training podcast in podcast history.
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I am one of your hosts, Bill Kasky.
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I m the other host, Brian Neal.
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Good morning, Brian.
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Good morning, Bill.
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We are here today for episode number roughly 700 and some.
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Getting to 700s?
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We ve been doing this for 14 long, slogging, glorious years.
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It s our total down, are we like 4 million?
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No, it s 8 million.
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Is it really?
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It s 8 million.
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I just told someone 4 million.
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Well, call them back.
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8 million?
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Tell them 8 million.
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Nine million, okay, we re off by a million.
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We re nine million?
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Nine million downloads.
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Well, we get about 150,000 a month, so in the course of a year, that s 1.8, 1.5, 1.6 million, so.
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Me likey.
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Nine million people.
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Me likey.
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They re all on our LinkedIn list, so if you wanna be the nine millionth and first LinkedIn group member, go to advancedsellingpodcast.com slash LinkedIn.
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And they re all clamoring for us to speak at their sales event this fall.
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I don t know how we re going to do it.
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And next winter, too.
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And so you need to get in while the getting s good.
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You send us an email.
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Put come see us into the subject line.
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We just got one.
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Did you see the one from the student?
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This was great.
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The kid from, I think he s from North Dakota State University sent us a note.
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They ve got a sales program up there.
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Oh, cool.
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So I m not sure NDSU will be able to get the checkbook out.
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To the extent they need to.
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To the extent that they need to.
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But we ll still have the conversation.
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Maybe it could be sponsored.
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Maybe they re sponsored.
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Kind of like wealthy alumni sponsor college football coaches.
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Maybe the Bill and Brian show can come on the road to North Dakota.
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And by the way, we don t publicize this very much.
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Brian, I may get in trouble for saying this.
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But if you want to bring us in digitally, you can do that too.
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We have done that before.
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Yeah.
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Where if you don t want to, you know, maybe it s not a full day program, and maybe it s an hour or two, and we have a studio here, we can broadcast live.
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And you probably have a studio there.
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You can receive live.
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So that s another option.
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It doesn t always have to be a face-to-face, although it s more fun face-to-face.
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Can we do a hologram?
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A hologram.
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It s coming.
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It s coming.
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Didn t Tupac do a, wasn t that back in the day, Tupac did a, thank you, everyone s nodding, studio audience.
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Our new partners.
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We have new partners in the podcast, don t we, Bill?
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We do.
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They re here in the recording studio.
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Are we ready to reveal that yet, or are we going to wait?
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Yeah, holograms.
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I spoke to a guy, Kevin Harrington, who s on Shark Tank.
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His partner, they re doing some hologram business.
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And they re using it for speakers.
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And it s not just about dead speakers.
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It s about, I want to speak to a group in California.
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I don t want to leave my studio.
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But they want to feel like I m there.
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And that s how they re using it.
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And it s really interesting.
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in the hologram.
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Can they reduce your body fat percentage in a hologram?
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Absolutely.
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Can we do that?
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So I ll go shirt off.
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I don t know about that.
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It might be a little much.
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You know, we re big music people here.
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And I m always intrigued by interesting musical solos.
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And I found another one that I had not had on the radar before, which is a very long, very interesting flute solo by a 70s band.
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We did the xylophone.
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We did the xylophone.
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This is a flute solo.
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So we might have to make a list of your favorite flute soloists.
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So those Ian Anderson obviously is the obvious choice there from Jethro Tull.
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Oh, yeah But this is from a song that I ve heard a thousand times and didn t realize there s actually a suit float flute solo in here, right?
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Take a listen to this You know the song bill
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the band is firefall oh yeah god they re good this song aren t they good
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So the song Strange Way by Firefall.
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Yeah.
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Great 70s band.
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Was that number one?
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Yacht Rock.
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Was that their number one?
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Yeah.
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No.
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They had several.
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You Are The Woman had to be their best top hit, right?
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OK.
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You are the woman that I always dreamed of.
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Wasn t there one called The Grim Reaper or The Grim Reefer?
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Are you thinking about Blue Oyster Cult?
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Yeah.
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That s Blue Oyster Cult.
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Isn t that the same band?
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No.
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This is called Firefall.
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I m just kidding.
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Little soccer.
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I m just kidding.
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I did a little trivia for my family last night.
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How d that go?
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For my wife s family.
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Not very well.
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I was thinking about, you ever remember the band?
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Now, this is not 80s or 70s.
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This is 60s.
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Hermits Hermits.
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Oh, of course.
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They had six to seven hits.
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They had seven hits that six made the top 10.
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Do you know what they were?
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I got one of them.
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OK.
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Something Tells Me I m Into Something Good.
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They re good.
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Hermits Hermits.
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And then there s a,
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There s a gal s name, it s like Penny Lane, but it s not that.
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It s, oh, Herman Sermon sings, is her girl s name, right?
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And it is, it is.
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Mrs. Something?
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It s Mrs. All right, Drozen.
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Doug Drozen, where are you?
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We need the list of Herman s hermits.
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Herman s hermits.
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This is fascinating for people, I m sure.
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That is Mrs. Mrs. Brown.
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You ve got a lovely daughter.
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Very good.
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I m Henry.
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Henry VIII?
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Yeah.
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They sing Henry VIII.
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I m Henry VIII.
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I am.
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We re losing our millennialism by the minute.
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They re all sleeping over here.
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Totally.
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One more.
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There s a kind of hush.
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Do you remember that one?
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There s a kind of hush all over the world tonight.
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Anyway, let s move on.
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My best friend in college and I used to love the movies Top Gun.
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And Something Tells Me I m Into Something Good is featured in one of the movies.
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And he and I, as a joke, would always hold binkies and sing that song together.
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It s a good song.
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I ll leave it at that.
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Hey, before we get into our topic today, which is real interesting, by the way, we re going to have a little riff on SDRs and cold calling and that sort of thing.
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Question for you, are you frustrated at all by your leaky sales funnel with prospects falling through the cracks and deals that don t close?
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that issue to some degree I know, well, there is a solution for you.
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Outreach.io, the leading sales engagement platform, supports sales reps and their managers by making it simple to humanize and personalize communication at scale, automating that soul-sucking manual work.
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and dramatically increasing the productivity efficiency of all of your revenue-generating teams.
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You can check them out at outreach.io forward slash ASP.
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That s outreach.io forward slash ASP.
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Chat with them and receive a free copy of their book on sales engagement called The Book on Sales Engagement, which I just love reading.
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Outreach.io forward slash ASP.
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Check them out.
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Our good friends at Outreach.
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Topic is a tough one here.
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It s loaded.
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We need some Barry White music.
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I saw a guy commented the other day.
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He goes, I love your podcast.
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Thanks so much.
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And I love the Barry White bits.
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There s one.
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the rest of the millennials are Googling, who s Barry White?
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I think he was on an episode of South Park, wasn t he, I think, or something like that?
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He could have been.
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Yeah, I m sure he was.
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So the topic today, Brian and I have discussed this back and forth and off and on on the podcast and just in our conversations.
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And it s about, what did you say, Brian?
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It s about cold calling, and it s about the outreach that must take place, usually in a sales development, SDR, BDR, that role where it s the first person
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who s got to make the 100 calls a day or a week, and they re qualifying leads, and then they re throwing the leads to after they become qualified over to a SDR, BDR, whatever the other person is.
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Anyway, it s just a mishmash of acronyms to me.
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But the point is that, is there a better way?
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And you ve heard from people, I ve heard from people, that just get so burned out by this 100-call-a-day thing, or the whole, in fact, I ve even heard, and this is an indication something s wrong, I ve even heard that people say, we can only put SDRs in that role for a year, they ll burn out.
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They do.
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And I feel like, shouldn t that tell you something about how you re doing it that maybe is not right?
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Or are we just going to assume that the only way to generate new business is by burning somebody out for a year?
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Yeah.
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Just think of the whole thing.
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So this is actually a sparse.
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We had a listener.
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His name is David.
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Leave his last name out.
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And he said he was really, you could read the emotion in his head.
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He says, I need some help.
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I am F-blinking burned out.
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I m making cold calls.
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I m an SDR with every dial.
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I m hoping no one picks up the phone.
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My company has done little to build product awareness in the marketplace, and he calls on C-level execs.
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He either gets chewed out because they re sick of getting
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cold calls or they just hang up on them.
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And I m sitting there going, why does someone think this is a good way to do this?
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It just doesn t make any sense.
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And what we re not talking, I think people get all antsy here when we say you shouldn t be making cold calls.
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This is like this binary thing, no.
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And I don t believe that to be true.
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I don t either.
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I don t either.
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And I also don t believe that by not making cold calls means that I m going to just sit around and wait for the phone to ring.
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That s the other, the people that are on the cold call deal, they re like, it s 100 or zero.
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And I m like, no, it s not.
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It s not that extreme on either side.
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There s a balance to this whole thing, and there s a strategy and a little bit of art and a little bit of science to all of it, as I see it.
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So I think your first bet is we re just riffing here, unprepped, on purpose.
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is that we have to step back from this perspective.
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If I m this guy s sales manager, even worse, if I m this guy s CEO, this is, I m assuming, a tech company.
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Probably.
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And a SaaS company.
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And I ask any SaaS owner, what do you want?
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Most of them want, which is interesting to me too, most of them want an exit.
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So their intentions are kind of, most of these guys want to build a product, scale it up, and exit.
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And you get pride.
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That s a good thing.
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I m not saying it s a bad thing.
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I m a capitalist.
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It s great.
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But you ve got to say, so what s the best, quickest way to your exit, then?
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And is this how you want your people to be?
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Now, some people don t give a rats about their people at all.
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They don t.
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They don t.
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And that s fair.
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As long as they own that, they re good.
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But what a lot of these people have is they have this good culture thing going.
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Like, oh, it s people.
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Boom.
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We got beer.
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Duh.
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We do this, things.
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We got the dog running around the neighborhood.
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We got shmedium t-shirts.
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We got scooters all over the place.
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And you get this message.
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Then you get that.
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It doesn t line up.
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It doesn t line up.
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So either say you re a sweatshop, and you re banging out 100 calls, and you re here at 7, and you call from 8 to 6.
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You got the auto dialer.
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That s the gig.
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Auto dialer.
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You can get up for 30 minutes for lunch, save that, or get this more aligned with how I think that you really want to be, which is a good, fun people culture where it s nice to be.
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Yeah, and I think a lot of times the emphasis, and I like what you said about a lot of times the CEO is really looking for the exit and everything they do in the business.
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And again, we re not passing judgment there.
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But you have to understand that everybody knows that.
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This is not a hidden thing.
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Everybody knows that the CEO gets the payoff for the exit.
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So everybody knows that every day they do this and it succeeds.
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They may get paid for it, but they know the big payday is for the CEO.
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And that s fine.
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But you ve got to understand.
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Absolutely.
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And the second thing I think we do is we spend a lot of time on tactics.
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I was talking with a friend the other day, and he leads a team of SDRs.
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He s not a client.
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But we were talking, and he goes, we re working on this approach, and we re trying this.
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And if in the third minute, they say this, and the objection goes here, and he s got it all decision treed out, I m like, I m not sure you re working on the right thing.
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To me, the right thing to work on is,
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and you and I haven t talked about this, so maybe you disagree with this, is what s the customer journey from the time, and we said this on the last podcast, from the time that a person first hears from you.
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So Brian, let s say you re on the phone, you re banging out 100 calls a day.
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Do we know what the customer journey is from that point?
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From the time he answers the phone or she picks up the phone and you re on the phone, do we really have that mapped out or are we just,
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We want to urge them to make an appointment or to set a schedule or something.
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What is the journey?
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And I think if you start to look at that, and we like to use this unawareness to awareness to comprehension to conviction to action, what s the journey they need to go on?
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And then your first call should be step one on the journey.
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So let s say that, is it OK if I continue?
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Oh, yeah, keep going.
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OK.
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So let s say that one of the parts of the journey is the customer has to at least realize they ve got a problem.
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Because if the salesperson SDR calls and starts asking them what their problems are, and I don t even know you, I m not going to spend one second.
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That s why they get hung up on.
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So what if the step one of the journey is a realization on the customer s part that I even have a problem worth looking at?
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Now, that might be an interesting way.
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So, what would be the content that would help that?
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Would it be a webinar?
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Would it be a blog post?
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Would it be a checklist?
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So, if you called and said, hey, I know that you re busy.
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This is not a sales call.
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I m calling because I wanted to share with you a link to something that we found very useful.
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We just wrote this.
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It s a 10-point checklist on how do you know if you re ready to invest in the cloud or whatever.
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Would you like to get a copy of it?
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At least then, now there s an engagement, there s a relationship versus hammering calls out and getting hung up on.
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So think about what the journey is from the first call to the call where you make the sale, and then just be mindful of making sure that your content matches that journey.
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I really don t think it s that difficult.
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But I don t think companies spend time.
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I think we re so anxious to, how many calls have you made?
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Yes.
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And where it gets the group as a pole in trouble, I think, is the burnout part.
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So I ve got a client.
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He s a really sharp, young sales guy.
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And he came to me.
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He s like, I don t know how much longer I can do this.
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I mean, it s a grind.
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And it s a grind because there s only two measurements, dials and appointments.
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That s it.
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There s no measurement of awareness or steps down the journey.
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And so if you re a leader of these companies, and if you re a BDR, SDR, and you listen to this show, send this to your manager and say, boss, please listen to this.
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is we ve got to start to measure the journey and to say, OK, now, marketing does this pretty well.
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Usually, marketing, they re putting content stuff out, and they re looking at opens and click-through rates and time on creation on that jazz.
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The SDR BDR should have some element of that, I believe, also in their measurement, right?
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Yeah, but they re playing in a different.
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They re isolated from that, mostly, I think, from what I see.
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Now, if you re in a company that doesn t isolate them, and it s all one big happy family, and you re constantly working on tweaking the journey, that s great.
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You re very lucky.
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But most don t.
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Yes.
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And there s also, now there is a trend.
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I will give the industry credit for this.
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There is a trend to take the SDR, BDR role and roll it into marketing.
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I have two clients that they re clients on one call.
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It s not a client, but a friend where they re doing that.
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That makes a ton of sense to me.
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Because now I can measure the same way.
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But when BDR and SDR lives under sales, and it s literally about those two metrics, call and appointments, then you re going to have just a group of just absolutely burned out people.
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So when it goes under marketing, what are a couple of things that you find are different about the SDR role under marketing?
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Give me some specifics.
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SPEAKER_00
Or has it been advanced?
1
SPEAKER_01
I think that the first level, so I think that the overall arching, is that double speak there?
1
SPEAKER_01
If the overarching, would that be a thing?
1
SPEAKER_01
Over arching underpinning over arching how you look at it Travis like oh, no, he s just sick.
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SPEAKER_01
One of the best benefits I get from doing this show is growing my vocabulary is we get we measure the engagement levels of
1
SPEAKER_01
So what that means is, if I m an SDR, I m making calls.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then I m sending the white paper, or I m sending the link to the blog, or I m sending the video.
1
SPEAKER_01
And how many of the people that I speak with watch the video?
1
SPEAKER_01
And how long do they watch it?
1
SPEAKER_01
And I start to measure the engagement.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because I can, like you said, if I can position it up front to say,
1
SPEAKER_01
I m in awareness mode.
1
SPEAKER_01
I love the language of that.
1
SPEAKER_01
I love the language saying, we re in the mode of building awareness in this new market or in this new segment.
1
SPEAKER_01
And we re really early on.
1
SPEAKER_01
So all we re doing at this point is educating people.
1
SPEAKER_01
This is a courtesy call.
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SPEAKER_01
I m going to send you this thing to look at.
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SPEAKER_01
It s directed directly for a CEO.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s a four-minute video.
1
SPEAKER_01
Take a look at that.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then I ll give you a shout back later, or we ll dialogue, or I ll send you something else.
1
SPEAKER_01
But we re really just an awareness moment.
1
SPEAKER_01
We just want you to know we re here, a little bit about what we do and how we help.
1
SPEAKER_00
This may or may not be a fit now.
1
SPEAKER_00
It may or may not be a fit ever.
1
SPEAKER_00
But we re obligated to share this with you.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think that language and that attitude perspective is really powerful.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it s whenever it is, it is.
1
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t have to be now.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it can be now.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s just one of those.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because all SDR, BDR stuff is timing and luck.
1
SPEAKER_01
Kind of is.
1
SPEAKER_01
If you go back to the original, which I m going to call now, we said, OK, can you tweak and modify the language?
1
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely, you can do that.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it s not only, I shouldn t say only, that.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s heavy duty on the timing and luck part.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then when you produce, and this is part of how difficult it can be.
1
SPEAKER_00
So let s say you produce a video.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it s a video that educates the customer on what kinds of issues are coming, what kinds of trends are looming and pains.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you have the SDR, make the call.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they say, hey, I ve got this video.
1
SPEAKER_00
We don t know.
1
SPEAKER_00
We re just in an awareness building mode.
1
SPEAKER_00
That video had better be damn good.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t mean overly produced.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t mean like a docudrama, a million dollars spent on it.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it had better lead the prospect from where he or she is when they first click on watch.
1
SPEAKER_00
to here are the problems, here s our mission, here s our message, what s the call to action, what s the next step after that video?
1
SPEAKER_00
I see this a lot.
1
SPEAKER_00
I have seen it referred to as the dead-end video, where it s like the customer watches the video and is like, OK, now what the hell do I do?
1
SPEAKER_00
There s nothing to do, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
There s nothing to do.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so you ve got to really think through, OK, the video is first.
1
SPEAKER_00
Then what?
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe there s a webinar.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it s a one-to-one call.
1
SPEAKER_00
But maybe that s too quick.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it s a blog that you say,
2
SPEAKER_00
In the video, we talked about this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now we re going to dive deeper into this.
2
SPEAKER_00
So the customer goes down this journey intelligently and intentionally, and they arrive at the point where they say, you know what?
2
SPEAKER_00
I need to book a call with Brian.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s time.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s time.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s where, to me, the SDR roll.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that SDR needs to follow that person, track them, understand, be there for questions.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re just a guide along the journey.
2
SPEAKER_01
And to close the loop up around this, and this is part of the advice I gave to my client who s struggling with this.
2
SPEAKER_01
is you have to find a way to enjoy this role yourself.
2
SPEAKER_01
You ve got to figure out how to do that.
2
SPEAKER_01
For me personally, this is just me, so this would not be for everyone.
2
SPEAKER_01
What you re talking about, the journey, is way more fun.
2
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_01
I would so much more enjoy making a video, sending a blog, writing something, interviewing a client, and then sending that over and doing that varied activity is, to me, way more fun.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I d look way more forward to going to work and doing this than grinding out 100 dials every day from an auto dialer.
2
SPEAKER_01
Of course.
2
SPEAKER_01
And saying the same little shticky speech and hoping that I get three appointments set.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Way more fun.
2
SPEAKER_00
So the key here, to me, is just the whole idea of reverse engineering.
2
SPEAKER_00
Just reverse engineer your process from the time a customer says yes and slices you a check.
2
SPEAKER_00
back into, OK, what are the steps along that journey?
2
SPEAKER_00
And how do I?
2
SPEAKER_00
And again, if you re an SDR and you re hammering out cold calls and you don t have any autonomy to do this, fine.
2
SPEAKER_00
But maybe somewhere in between I have no autonomy and I have 100% autonomy, maybe somewhere in there there s an idea that you can take from here.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think reverse engineering the sales process is step one.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like, OK, what are the steps along the path, along this journey that we talk about often?
2
SPEAKER_00
So we didn t really have any one, two, three, four, five tips.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I guess we did have some to-dos.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s plenty there.
2
SPEAKER_01
You listen to this over and back.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you ve got to think about all the things.
2
SPEAKER_01
Think about the culture, the people.
2
SPEAKER_01
Think about the way that they do, the process that they engage in.
2
SPEAKER_01
And let the SDR, BDR, we said loop this back to your manager.
2
SPEAKER_01
Let the SDR, BDR group listen to this and come up with the process.
2
SPEAKER_01
That whole phrase, we support what we help create, we support what we help create.
2
SPEAKER_01
Let them help create this.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they ll be bought into it more.
2
SPEAKER_01
Versus saying, here s the process.
2
SPEAKER_01
You make 100 hours a day.
2
SPEAKER_01
Your goal is to set five appointments.
2
SPEAKER_01
Five s keep your seat.
2
SPEAKER_01
10 s good.
2
SPEAKER_01
15 will give you a bonus.
2
SPEAKER_00
And we ll put you on probation if you re not doing it for 90 days.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then what happens?
2
SPEAKER_01
The other person starts looking.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
What percent of people who get put on probation end up getting off probation and become superstars?
2
SPEAKER_00
What percent of that?
2
SPEAKER_01
I have no idea.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s really good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Zero.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or five.
2
SPEAKER_01
The old PIP.
2
SPEAKER_01
I have seen the PIP work once.
2
SPEAKER_01
Really?
2
SPEAKER_01
Twice, yeah, in 30 years.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve got a hand up for that.
2
SPEAKER_01
OK, good stuff.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you d like to have Bill and or me and or both come out to your sales meeting, kickoff meeting for early 2020, end of the year 19, now s the time to reach out.
2
SPEAKER_01
A lot of fall meetings occur in that September, October, November time frame.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then the January, February sales launch dates are also booked.
2
SPEAKER_01
Or a travel trip, we d love to go to what, Arizona?
2
SPEAKER_01
Aruba in the January, February time frame, but send us an email.
2
SPEAKER_01
You went to Aruba, and you had an opportunity, and you blew it.
2
SPEAKER_01
I did not set a clear future with my mystery listener who talked to me in the ocean in Aruba.
2
SPEAKER_00
He will come back, because you know he listens.
2
SPEAKER_00
He will come back.
2
SPEAKER_01
If anybody knows who this gentleman is who was talking to me in the ocean in Aruba and said, I listen to your podcast, please point him my way, would you?
2
SPEAKER_01
Send us an email, listenerinadvancesellingpodcast.com, and put come see us in the subject line.
2
SPEAKER_01
We d be happy to do that.
2
SPEAKER_01
We will see you next time on the Advanced Selling Podcast.
2
SPEAKER_01
Bye.