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This is the art of charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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We re here with Grammy Award winning hip hop artist, Lecrae Moore.
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We ll talk about making it to the top of the world of hip hop while being an introvert, growing up fatherless, filtering in the right role models and mentors, and how to separate criticism from valid feedback.
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So enjoy this one with Lecrae Moore.
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And with that, welcome to the Art of Charm.
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We bring together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, in your relationships, and at work.
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If you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and our toolbox, where we discuss concepts like body language and nonverbal communication, persuasion, networking, negotiation, mentorship, and everything else we teach here at The Art of Charm.
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In the U.S., just text CHARMED to 33444.
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That s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
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Everywhere else, go to theartofcharm.com.
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We may not have all the answers, but we definitely have all the right questions.
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All right, let s talk to Lecrae Moore.
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So Lecrae, tell us what you do in one sentence.
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What I do in one sentence.
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I inspire through art.
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That s about as vague as it gets, but I appreciate it.
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I appreciate it.
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At least we got art in there.
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And so why don t I toot your horn for you, because I know that being humble is literally in the book that you follow.
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So you won a Grammy, and was that in the gospel category?
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Yeah, I won one in the gospel category,
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first hip-hop artist to win a Grammy in the gospel category.
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I would imagine, yeah.
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Yeah, so me and Elvis have something in common because Elvis only won a Grammy in the gospel category as well.
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Not bad.
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Yeah, good stage to be on up there with Elvis.
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And you got nominated for, I guess I ll put this in air quotes, a regular hip-hop Grammy, right?
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Right.
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Yeah, I got nominated for best hip-hop song.
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What does that signify?
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Because if you start off as a gospel artist, and I read your whole book, by the way, I meant to tell you that, so I m not coming in, like, reading your Twitter profile.
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It seems like when you won the Grammy in gospel, you re on top of the world, but what did it signify when you were nominated for the other Grammy?
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Because it seems like gospel, it s its own little world, right?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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No, yeah, and I mean, I think art s supposed to transcend culture and faith and genre, so for me to be nominated
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in a category with just people who I consider peers in music and art.
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To me, it said the music was being looked at as broader than just the faith that Lecrae subscribes to.
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It seems like that led to a whole bunch of other identity stuff, and I ll get into that in a bit, because when you started off, you weren t exactly born into the church, grew up goody two-shoes.
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A lot of the people I know that are religious now that I grew up with and were religious before, they were always that way, right?
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They know no other side, and you have kind of an interesting origin story.
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I almost take issue with the following, though, and I m so curious.
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You re a self-described introvert,
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How can you be a hip-hop star and an introvert at the same time?
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Explain to me how you came to this conclusion.
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I have a theory that, my theory is that most entertainers are probably introverted.
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I think they might be.
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I have to give more time with them, but I think it s easier to be on a stage and to give off this big burst of personality and energy, or even just on TV or whatever.
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as long as you have a opportunity to retreat back into yourself and just like have some downtime.
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So I feel like that, I don t know, man.
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It s like introverts are like, we re weird people where we need to like, we need to like come back and have our own little time.
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And then we can come give you some of, some of what we ve been doing in our mind by ourselves.
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You know, I agree with that.
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First of all, according to those personality tests, believe them or not, I am also an introvert.
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However, you know, here I am with the talk show.
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But I agree with you.
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It is, at some level, much easier to go in the shell, in the hole, whatever, in the room, in the studio, literally, create something, spend tons of time reading and researching and experimenting on your own, late at night, early in the morning, or whenever you work,
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and then you come out and you go, here s this thing I created, and then you kind of slam the door and look out the window and see how people are doing with it, versus being in the middle of it all the time.
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That s one of the best descriptions I ve ever heard.
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That s perfect.
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So it doesn t surprise me, even though it sounded like, initially I read that, I was like, what, a hip hop star is an introvert?
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It actually didn t surprise me when I started thinking about it, because I think you re right, there s probably a lot of people
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that rather than go to a party and be the center of attention, would rather be in the studio working, and on its face it looks like, man, that guy works so hard, and that s definitely the case, but I think a lot of creative types would just rather be in the studio working or doing something rather than being at the party doing the who s who and being seen thing.
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So true.
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I m the worst networker ever.
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I m the worst at all of that.
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I don t know how to do the little song and dance small talk stuff.
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I go to the industry parties and it s just kind of like, I m like, are we having a serious conversation or what are we going to do?
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What are we doing here?
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Are we talking about hors d oeuvres?
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Are we going to dive in?
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Yeah, it s almost like, that attitude comes across as, I don t have time for small talk, which also, that s what contributes to the whole like, man, Lecrae works so hard, that guy s always in studio, that guy s always hustling, that guy s always doing stuff, because it probably combines with an already all-star work ethic, and then the introversion just makes it seem like, man, he s so driven, he doesn t even go to parties, meanwhile you re like, I m not going to that party, are you kidding me, I m gonna have to talk about weather and bread,
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Handbags, like, no way, man, I m just gonna sit here and write.
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And nobody wants to talk about bread, man.
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Nobody talking about bread.
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Yeah.
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That s perfect.
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Speaking of networking, though, the Beyonce party story was kind of crazy.
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Tell us the story, if you would.
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So it was epic, man.
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It was like, you know, I m invited to the Roc Nation party, you know, it s Jay-Z, Beyonce.
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They have this incredible house that they re throwing a party on the lawn.
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You park your car like 10 miles away and then a bus comes to pick you up.
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I remember riding on a bus with Diplo.
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It s just like, what is happening right now?
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The bus has Diplo DJing on it, you mean?
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Like there s a DJ on the bus?
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No, he s riding on the bus to go to the party, there s no DJ.
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Diplo s sitting in the seat in front of you.
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We re all on the small school bus type of thing.
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The short bus.
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Yeah, the short bus.
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It humanizes everybody real quick.
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It s like Diplo sitting there with his knees in his chest.
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It s like, oh, well, let s just look at this.
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You shouldn t have sat on the wheel.
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You know you re not supposed to sit on the seat where the wheel is and you got your legs on that wheel.
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Right, exactly.
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Just like school.
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So then we, you know, we get to the party and it s kind of like, there s this like the pantheon of elite superstars
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you know, like underneath this pavilion in the center of the lawn.
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And then the rest of the lawn is scattered with, you know, like stars, you know?
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So it s like, it s Beyonce and like Nicki Minaj and Jay-Z and all these people just underneath the Calvin Harris, just kind of hanging out underneath this like pavilion with security everywhere.
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And then there s like everyone else, you know what I mean?
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Like, I m not going to name the everyone else s, but you know, I mean, if you could think of them,
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they re there.
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So it s like, you know, I mean, like everyone s there.
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I m the Will Smith kids, like everyone s there.
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And it s just funny to me because I m at this party and I m in my introverted zone.
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I m just kind of chilling, like watching everything happen.
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And, and you realize like, you know, no one s going to like start a conversation, but then there s a part of you that s like, do I start a conversation?
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Because I don t want anyone to just feel like,
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You know, is he bothering me or what s happening here?
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It s just a weird type of vibe.
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And I just sat and watched, man.
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I m like a people watcher.
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So I was just watching.
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You just watch how many times your favorite celebrity digs in their nose.
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You re just sitting and watching this whole thing happen to you.
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So you felt like an outsider from the whole scene.
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I mean, just to put this in context, I looked at your social media and Twitter feeds and stuff like that.
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You ve got over two million people following you on Twitter, so you re not exactly like
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the new guy who s never done anything.
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You re, by any relative or absolute measure, enormously successful, except when you re standing next to Jay-Z and Beyonce, and then you feel like everybody else does when they stand next to Jay-Z and Beyonce, right?
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, so that s what it felt like.
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It just felt like, you know, like what, I mean, what is the conversation gonna be like?
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Hey, Beyonce, I was born in Houston, too.
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Okay, all right.
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Do they know who you are I mean you got invited there so they must
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You must have known who you were.
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Yeah, I mean, there was lots of people who did know who I was.
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It was just kind of like, I didn t realize they did until we started conversations.
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So it was like, eventually, you have a conversation with somebody, and you start talking to them, and you re like, oh, okay, so you re familiar with what I do, and they re like, of course.
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But it s just a sense of like, but you re, aren t you like a super religious guy, or what s your thing?
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I don t know how to act around you anyway.
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And you realize at that moment, like, oh, like, you know, people are driven by stigmas.
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I m sure there s probably some gangster rappers who are in the party who are like, no one s talking to me.
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They probably think I want to stab them, but I don t.
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I just want to have a conversation, you know?
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And so maybe that was, you know, what was happening.
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Now, one of the things that you recounted in your book was that a lot of people actually did know who you were, but a lot of them ignored you, and you started to get in your head, and you started to have a conversation with yourself.
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Do you remember that conversation?
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I mean, you know, parts of it, just like, do they think, like, I m gonna preach to them right now, or are they questioning, like, can I drink around them, or like, you know what I mean?
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It s just kind of like, and that s how I usually feel.
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Like, even in studio sessions, it s just always this sense, like, I ll be in the studio with, like,
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so many incredible artists that I admire and respect, and there s just a sense of like, can I smoke, can I drink, can I cuss, I don t know.
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It s almost like I m an alien who just walked in the room.
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And even at the Grammys, you experience something very similar.
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I mean, you recount how even security is like, hang on a second, who are you?
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Hold on, wait for him to finish taking pictures.
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So you re at the top, but it almost like, it still almost doesn t matter.
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You just find yourself at the bottom of another pyramid.
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Yeah.
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It s, it s like going from high school to college, you know, you can be like the man in high school or just like the person that everyone knows.
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You got your group of friends, but then as soon as you get to college, like you got to start all over.
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You got to make new friends.
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You know, you have to like find a different social circle.
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It was just starting all the way over.
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And that s kind of how it felt.
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It s like, you know, um, I m thrust into this world where a lot of the artists that I come up with and, and have developed relationships with,
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have not had the opportunity to come to.
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And now I m here with these, you know, just these super talented people.
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And they re like, yeah, I don t know you.
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Back up.
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And so it s like, oh, OK.
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So if you re at the top and it almost kind of doesn t matter for a lot of folks, first of all, how does it make you feel and how do you handle those feelings?
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Because you gave a great analogy, being the new kid at school, but the same thing will happen to somebody going into a new workplace, moving to a new town.
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I mean, these feelings are pretty universal and I think...
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The reason it s so interesting to hear from you is because you d think that somehow at the top of Hollywood and the top of the music scene, that stuff would all mesh together or blend away or go away entirely, but it doesn t.
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It s just as clear as it always was.
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Yeah, it s just, I mean, it s, you know, I mean, people are people, man, and people create cliques and crews and they, you know, they re
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particular and choosy.
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And when you start dealing with artists and Hollywood types, their circles of trust are very small.
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People are trying to take advantage of them.
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Everyone has their hand out.
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Everybody wants something.
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So they re not the most inviting people in the world.
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Um, just because there s so many people that have tried to, you know, enter into their world, uh, you know, with their own intentions and, um, and then here you come.
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So, you know, it s definitely,
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I think it s normal, though, people are people, like you said, coming to a new job.
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We ve already established who we are.
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What are you here to do?
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Are you here to take my job?
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There s all these different things and emotions and insecurities and all these particular things swirling, and I think you win, or what I ve found is you win when you re just confident that you re being the best you you can be and not worrying about... To me, success is
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doing what I ve been created to do, not comparing myself to you.
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And so, you know, we all have our own race to run, our own lane to run in, and that s kind of where I ve had to, like, land my plane.
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Because otherwise, I think you ll lose your mind.
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You ll go crazy.
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You ll try to compete, compare, and it ll just become a nightmare.
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Yeah, I think that the comparison to others, and we talk about this a lot on the show, is you re always comparing your blooper reel to someone else s highlight reel.
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You know, I don t think Beyonce and Jay-Z invite people over when they re feeling antisocial and having a down time.
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And all we see is their curated feed.
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And I would imagine...
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That just is what we see on Facebook for for regular folks like you and I or I should say like like me and some of the folks listening to the shows we already see our friends highlights in Hollywood.
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You re seeing your friends highlights that are curated by professionals who are.
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solely employed to, one, create those highlights, take perfect photos of them, post them at the perfect time on social media following, and then they get a million likes.
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It s probably even more intense at that level, because if your friend from high school does something and it gets 10 likes, you re like, oh, cool.
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But if somebody who you know in your circle gets 180,000 likes, you start to feel like, gee, I only got 10,000 likes, I m not doing anything special here, right?
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The scale is so much bigger.
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for you.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And the blooper reel, that s why people like go crazy.
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And, and you know, the, the, the, you know, paparazzi and everybody just harps on your most human moments because it s like, well, you did something regular or normal or you messed up.
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You know what I mean?
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Like Kanye runs into a stop sign.
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It s like replay that 30 million times.
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Yeah.
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I mean, and it s because the picture that s been painted for the world is like,
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you know, is this flawless perspective of celebrity culture.
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So yeah, I mean, you re looking at all that.
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And if you re not confident in who you are or why you re there, it s always gonna be in the back of your mind.
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Yeah, I think with Kanye, maybe not the best example because I think he s 50% blooper reel, but he does that on purpose too, right?
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That s crafted, I think.
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Or maybe that s just who he is and he s like, look, I m trying to catch this train wreck.
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That s my brand now.
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Try and catch it.
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I got a personal theory on Kanye, man.
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I really feel like Kanye is like, you know, the amount of pressure and the amount of like,
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I think he just has days where he throws caution to the wind and says, man, y all are driving me crazy.
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I don t even care.
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And then he has days where he s just like, I can t take it anymore.
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I m going to snap on all of y all.
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Just let me be.
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You know what I mean?
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So that s the double-edged sword of fame for people.
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You appreciate everyone recognizing your craft and loving you, but then at the same time, you want to be a normal person sometimes.
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You re not allowed to be, so it s a weird place to be.
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what place are you in right now?
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I mean, at some level, you have to be in there, and in reading the book, I noticed that you have a lot of tension in your identity, almost.
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I mean, you ve got a lot of ups and downs.
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The ups and downs you re going through and that you go through in the book, that you detail in the book, sound like a regular track for any entrepreneur or any hip-hop artist.
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I mean, you re talking a lot about self-sabotage and something called imposter syndrome, like, do I belong here?
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or am I just the guy who slipped through the cracks and everybody knows it?
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Tell us about those feelings, because these are feelings that literally every entrepreneur has, everybody who gets into a good college, you hear this, how many people think you slipped through the admissions, you know, the admissions requirements.
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I mean, these are things that are very, very common and almost universally human.
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I think we d love to hear about that from you, especially.
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Yeah, you know, they re just, I think, unless you re just the most narcissistic person in the world,
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and a megalomaniac who thinks they deserve every ounce of credit that they ve ever gotten, I think everyone s going to deal with that once they achieve some level of success.
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Because at some point in time, you re given the benefit of the doubt because of your prior successes.
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And you re like, oh, did no one catch that I m not perfect?
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Did they miss that?
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Did I sneak in here?
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Am I supposed to be here?
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And, you know, things happen to you that you only imagined happening to other people and not yourself.
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And so it s just kind of a weird scenario where you start questioning, like, is this legit?
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Like, is someone going to walk in the room at any moment and be like, oh, sorry, we made a mistake.
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Got to take that back.
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Got to take away all your accolades or whatever it is that you ve accomplished.
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But again,
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I think nothing s new under the sun, and everyone is inspired by other people.
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Some of our greatest triumphs come from tons of mistakes.
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You make a great song or a great piece of art or a decision.
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or whatever it is that you do for a living, you do that after a lot of trial and error.
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Rarely does someone just kind of step out the gate and knock the ball out the park.
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And so I think it s, you see all the errors that you ve made to get where you ve gotten.
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And you re thinking everyone else does too, because they only see the moment of success.
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They only see that presentation in the office that you slayed, even though you messed up a gazillion times at home trying to put that presentation together.
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And so that s where it comes in.
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Hey Art of Charm listeners, I m excited to share a new podcast I ve been absolutely binging.
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One of the things that you have as one of your personal mottos, or maybe it s the personal motto, but I notice this and I love this, is if you live for other people s acceptance, you ll die from their rejection.
2
SPEAKER_02
How did that become, how did you learn that lesson?
2
SPEAKER_03
Well, it s funny, as a lyric, I did this album called Gravity, and I was talking about, and I can t even remember the name of the song now.
2
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Your own song.
2
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It s called Free From It All.
2
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And it was the first time I was really dealing with the pressure of people
2
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you know, expecting perfection out of me.
2
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It was like, whoa, what is this?
2
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You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_03
And I remember a mentor of mine said that the higher they lift you, um, the further, you know, you have the fall, you know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_03
And it s kind of like the more that they admire you, the more perfect they make you in their minds and the more disappointed in you they are in you, because it s kind of like they created this,
2
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idle in their minds of who you are, this superhero, and you can t live up to it.
2
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Once you start living for the acceptance of people, then when you re not accepted by them, it ll crush you.
2
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I experienced it.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s just like, hey, you re trying to please everyone and pander to everybody, but saying yes to somebody means you got to say no to somebody else.
2
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Someone s going to be disappointed at the end of the day, and you re just going to have to be okay.
2
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The model that I ve
2
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learn to live with is if you influence 1,000 people, there s going to be 100 critics, and you re never going to have everybody satisfied.
2
SPEAKER_03
So you ve got to do what you were made to do versus doing what everyone else is demanding that you do, because you ll be unhappy for the rest of your life.
2
SPEAKER_02
How does that play out in practicality?
2
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Do you have a calculation in your head that you re going through when someone says, hey man, we should collaborate on this next record?
2
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Is there something going through your head where you re like, alright, this would be good for my brand in this way, bad for my brand in that way?
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, how do you isolate the people-pleasing impulse that s going on in the back of your head?
2
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Like, I want to say yes to this.
2
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How do you balance that?
2
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Is there something concrete that you do that s some sort of thought process?
2
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I think after a while, if you create goals, you have to start thinking like, is this helping me accomplish whatever particular goal that I ve set out to accomplish?
2
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Is this helping me or is this distracting me or hindering me from accomplishing that goal?
2
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So for me, practically, I set out a few particular goals.
2
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And some things were a hindrance.
2
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I had said probably back in 2012,
2
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I want it to be a voice in culture to help influence culture for the better.
2
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And if an opportunity comes up to, I don t know, man, do you want to be in this relay race?
2
SPEAKER_03
And it s like, what is it for?
2
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It s like, oh, it s just a random relay race.
2
SPEAKER_03
First, it s someone else saying, you want to be in this relay race that s for cancer awareness or something.
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It s like, obviously, I m going to go with the cancer awareness one
2
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that one is more in line with the goal that I had set.
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And so I m not as mad at disappointing whoever, you know, cause it may be like Jennifer Lopez, like, hey, come run in my relay.
2
SPEAKER_03
What s it for Jennifer?
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SPEAKER_03
It s just for fun.
2
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And then like breast cancer awareness, like come run in our relay.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s like, ah, freak.
2
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It s Jennifer Lopez.
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You know what I mean?
2
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What do you do?
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Is that a real example?
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I m curious.
2
SPEAKER_03
No, it s not a real example, but.
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But I mean, that would be a struggle, right?
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People would struggle with that.
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But if you have a goal in mind, you can t be frustrated.
2
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I mean, you can t beat yourself up like, oh man, Jennifer s going to think I hate her if I don t do this.
2
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I m such a fan of whatever.
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I care so much about what she thinks about me.
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it s kind of like you gotta be determined to do what it is that you set your mind to do.
2
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And then, you know, if that s what it is, then do it.
2
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Otherwise, you ll just be off track all the time and doing what everyone else wants you to do.
2
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So.
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Do you see that happening in hip hop or in creative spaces that you re in?
2
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Do you see people get distracted and then become so vanilla that they re not interesting anymore?
2
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Absolutely.
2
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You see it all the time.
2
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You know, it s just, it s actually just a part of what happens.
2
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You know, people get,
2
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Some people don t have a vision for themselves.
2
SPEAKER_03
They don t have an identity and so they let other people create that for them and by the time they figure it out, it s too late.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s like you came in here and you had no plan.
2
SPEAKER_03
Fame is like a for real drug that really leads to nowhere if you don t know how to leverage it.
2
SPEAKER_03
So it s kind of like people will chase fame and acknowledgement and they won t know what to do with it and now all they have is that.
2
SPEAKER_03
You know, so you re just famous for what?
2
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Like you re, you know, like the, the guys who say something silly on like YouTube or, or social media, it s like, that s all they re known for.
2
SPEAKER_03
And it s like, they don t know how to leverage it.
2
SPEAKER_03
They just, they just take their 15 minutes and they ll chocolate rain and then they ll get out of here.
2
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You know what I mean?
2
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It s like, that was it.
2
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That s my contribution to society is chocolate rain.
2
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I don t,
2
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And no, no knock to him.
2
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Maybe he had a plan.
2
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It just didn t work out.
2
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But I m just saying, I think it s funny.
2
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You pick the chocolate rain guy, Tay Zonday, because I, that song is so catchy and addicting and it gets in your head.
2
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And then you think like, okay, I saw that.
2
SPEAKER_02
And then I saw this Dr. Pepper commercial that I still remember.
2
SPEAKER_02
Probably the only soda commercial I remember in my whole life where he s doing like cherry chocolate rain.
2
SPEAKER_02
or something like that, and then he was just done.
2
SPEAKER_02
It was just stratosphere.
2
SPEAKER_02
He was on Jimmy Kimmel, like the YouTube special.
2
SPEAKER_02
He had that hit song on YouTube.
2
SPEAKER_02
He did a Dr. Pepper commercial, and now it s just done.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s over, and who knows where that guy works now, right?
2
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If anything is happening because of that.
2
SPEAKER_02
He burned so hot, he burned out.
2
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And it s, man, it s a funny example.
2
SPEAKER_02
What reminded you of that?
2
SPEAKER_02
Where did that even come from?
2
SPEAKER_02
How is that in your consciousness right now?
2
SPEAKER_03
I don t know, man.
2
SPEAKER_03
It just hit me.
2
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You just see it so much.
2
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And that s for anybody.
2
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That s for somebody who s working at a bank.
2
SPEAKER_03
What is the ultimate ambition?
2
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Is your plan just to get promoted there and then all of a sudden you re working at this bank for the rest of your life?
2
SPEAKER_03
If so, great.
2
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But if you don t have a vision for what it is you ultimately want to accomplish,
3
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accomplished in, you re just allowing that job to create a vision for you and you re not, you know, like you re not leveraging that for other opportunities.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s really like, I remember I had a job at, um, at a cable company and I was like, you know, first you install cable.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then I was like, and it s hot in these attics.
3
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And so I m, I m going to go to the call center.
3
SPEAKER_01
And, uh, and then I m working in the call center and I m like,
3
SPEAKER_01
This is the worst, helping 75-year-old ladies figure out how to work their remote control.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was the most tedious, difficult job.
3
SPEAKER_01
You pull your hair out.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s like, no ma am, no ma am.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s the red button, the red one.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then I m sitting there and I m like, this is not a part of the plan.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we had a conference meeting one day, and the vice president of marketing came in there.
3
SPEAKER_01
And she was like talking about the company or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I went up to her afterward and I said, I said, yo, can I please like come in on my days off from the call center and like learn marketing?
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, I ll do whatever.
3
SPEAKER_01
And she was like, okay.
3
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I said, I ll do whatever.
3
SPEAKER_01
Just, I just want to learn like how to, how this marketing company works.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then I just went in there to learn like marketing.
3
SPEAKER_01
and ended up getting hired on a marketing staff.
3
SPEAKER_01
But it was like, for me, it was a vision.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was like, I want to be creative.
3
SPEAKER_01
I want to think about ads and campaigns and be artistic.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it was me trying to leverage that call center job for something else other than just letting that become the driver s seat for me.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s a really good example.
3
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A lot of what we teach at Art of Charm and social capital and things like that has to do with seizing opportunity, creating opportunity.
3
SPEAKER_00
How did you get that in your head?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, alright, I work at this tedious job.
3
SPEAKER_00
I need to figure out how to move up.
3
SPEAKER_00
How did you get that kind of bit of code in your DNA?
3
SPEAKER_00
Have you always been like that?
3
SPEAKER_00
Look for the little edge or is that something you developed over time?
3
SPEAKER_01
It was a both and.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was always ambitious and like,
3
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But you get to a point where you realize, you know, cause I think every artist or every person is like waiting for that handout or that big break.
3
SPEAKER_01
Someone s going to just knock on your door and say, look at this talent.
3
SPEAKER_01
I heard you singing in the shower all the way from Hollywood.
3
SPEAKER_01
We want to sign you up.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like it just doesn t work like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And, um, and I ll never forget my stepdad telling me, I said, yeah, I got a job at, um, at the cable company, you know, in a, in a call center.
3
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And he was like, Oh, cool.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re a warm pulse.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, Oh, what?
3
SPEAKER_01
I was like, what?
3
SPEAKER_01
And it hit me like, oh, wow, that s like a different perspective, you know, that I hadn t had.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, well, how do I get from being a warm post to like, to the, to the heartbeat?
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, what does that look like?
3
SPEAKER_01
And for me, it was always like, I want to create, I want to create things and inspire people.
3
SPEAKER_01
And, and, um, and when she came in there explaining like, oh, you re behind how this company like actually is marketed to the world.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, I want to be in that room, you know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_01
I just want to learn how to do that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so, it was kind of like, I m not going to sit here and be a Warm Pulse, you know, if that s what you think I am, no way, I m out of here.
3
SPEAKER_00
First of all, yeah, Warm Pulse, Warm Body, kind of accurate, but that s not a very encouraging thing to say to your kid.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
What was going on there?
3
SPEAKER_00
He sounds like he was not necessarily rooting for you sometimes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no, it wasn t.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you know, I think he s just kind of like he s he s the ultimate tough love type of person.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like he s not like the most, you know, I mean, he grew up without having that type of encouragement.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, you know, he you can only be what you ve seen.
3
SPEAKER_01
You can only become what you ve beheld.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he hadn t beheld that.
3
SPEAKER_01
So for him, it was like, look, I m doing good by like putting food on your table, buddy.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_01
So I was like, all right, well, there we go.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, so it was I remember one time I was like,
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, I got this girl problem.
3
SPEAKER_01
He s like, I don t know what to tell you.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t deal with that type of stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was like, all right, moving on.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, but that was his thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was kind of like, look, the world s not going to be handed to you, so you got to go out there and grab it by the sack.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that was his perspective.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, when I moved out the house, you know, he gave me like a couple hundred dollars.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he was like, you know, don t F it up.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_01
It s like, all right.
3
SPEAKER_01
All right.
3
SPEAKER_01
go out into the world and get it right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Every kid needs a father, and you write about this a little bit in your book.
3
SPEAKER_00
It sounds like you did have that stepdad, but also your biological dad was out of the picture.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
How did that affect you?
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, look, we all know this is negative, but we don t really think about the specifics a lot of the time.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you hear a lot like, well, look, there s so many babies are growing up without fathers, but what did this do to you specifically in your book?
3
SPEAKER_00
You were pretty detailed.
3
SPEAKER_00
You d thought a lot about the fact that your biological dad had left a lot.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s, there s what you call a father wound and a father wound is like, you know, this, this, this gaping wound that is left by,
3
SPEAKER_01
you know, absentee fathers.
3
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, when you, when you start doing the, the math and you look at, you know, 90% of violent crimes are committed by men.
3
SPEAKER_01
85% of like rapes and assaults are committed by men.
3
SPEAKER_01
Um, you see like, there s this, like this men have a sense of like, you know, there s just certain things that men are involved in.
3
SPEAKER_01
And when, and then you go to the prison and you do a survey and 85% of the inmates there have
3
SPEAKER_01
strained relationships with their fathers.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so you see the consistency of like, well, I have no idea what it means to be a man.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have no idea what it means to like go after a woman or like change a tire or, you know, so I have to like scrape and scrap and piece together my sense of masculinity because I don t have a vision.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t have a roadmap in front of me.
3
SPEAKER_01
And, um,
3
SPEAKER_01
And so that was my burden.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re always wondering who you are.
3
SPEAKER_01
Even if you suck as a dad, your son is gonna look up to you if you re around.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just like this innate thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
Until he s old enough to know better, to know you suck, he s just gonna look up to you.
3
SPEAKER_01
You think your dad s a superhero, whatever.
3
SPEAKER_01
My dad was gone.
3
SPEAKER_01
I still was like, oh, he s out doing something awesome.
3
SPEAKER_01
He ll be back one day.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s like this dream.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he didn t deserve that type of
3
SPEAKER_01
esteem, it just comes with the territory.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I think for me, I struggle with having this person that I esteemed not invest in me, not show me who I was supposed to be, how to handle situations, and you just get thrust into the world like a
3
SPEAKER_01
in a pinball machine, if people even know what those are, in 2016.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, I hope so.
3
SPEAKER_00
Otherwise I d feel really old.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, there s these things called pinball machines, kids.
3
SPEAKER_01
Check them out, they re on Google.
3
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, you get thrust in there and you re just bouncing around.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know what I m supposed to do.
3
SPEAKER_01
When am I a man?
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know, is it when I first have sex?
3
SPEAKER_01
Is it when I first pay my bills?
3
SPEAKER_01
What makes me a man?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because I don t have a road map.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s how I constantly felt.
3
SPEAKER_01
is just the sense of, like, I don t know who I am.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then also, just like him not being present, you did feel a sense of like, well, maybe it s my fault.
3
SPEAKER_01
You don t know that you feel that way as a kid, but you do.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re like, maybe this is my fault.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you, at some level, felt like it s your fault that he went away, maybe you re not worthy of love, maybe you re not worthy of others  love as well as your father.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it sort of spilled over into other areas of your life, did it not?
3
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely, yeah, and you know, I write, like,
3
SPEAKER_01
most of my issues in my life, you know what I m saying?
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to blame him for everything, but I mean, it can be traced back to just that lack of identity and a lack of sense of like, um, what is my role here?
3
SPEAKER_01
And, and, and, um, and, and how did I influence his departure?
3
SPEAKER_01
And maybe, maybe I m just so messed up that, you know, um, that s why he left.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you experience circumstances and situations where they tell you how smart your father is or how cool of a guy he was.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, well, why isn t he here?
3
SPEAKER_01
It s an episode of The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s another old school show, kids.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s on Google.
3
SPEAKER_01
The episode s on YouTube or something like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
But when Will Smith gets into it with his dad, his dad storms out or leaves.
3
SPEAKER_01
He says, sorry, Will, I got to go.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then Will breaks down for his uncle.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he s like, why doesn t he love me, man?
3
SPEAKER_01
You know what I m saying?
3
SPEAKER_01
you feel rejected, you feel dejected, and you re looking for that everywhere you can find it as you navigate through life.
3
SPEAKER_01
So affirmation becomes a big part of your narrative if you feel rejected by your father, because your parents are the first affirming people you ever experience.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, their word is everything to you.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, you can crush a child s dreams as a parent by saying, you know, you re the worst this, or you suck at that, but if you affirm them and you tell them, man, you are so
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, a lot of parents lie to their kids and give them a false sense of affirmation.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s a different story.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I m just saying, a parent has so much power.
4
SPEAKER_01
And if your parent does not affirm you, or you feel rejected by them, then that shapes your perspective as you navigate the world.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that was me.
4
SPEAKER_01
My first encounter with the world was your dad
4
SPEAKER_01
doesn t want to have anything to do with you.
4
SPEAKER_01
So now, go deal with that.
4
SPEAKER_01
Four year old, five year old, go deal with that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Thanks for listening and supporting the show.
4
SPEAKER_00
For a list of all the amazing sponsors and discount codes, visit theartofcharm.com slash advertisers.
4
SPEAKER_00
Can you discuss kind of what took the place of your father at that point?
4
SPEAKER_00
Because it led down a pretty crazy path.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, you know,
4
SPEAKER_01
A lot of the role models that I had were, you know, guys in my neighborhood, cousins and uncles who, you know, were influenced by gang culture, drug culture.
4
SPEAKER_01
You got to remember, we re talking about guys who, these uncles of mine are guys who grew up in the 80s and, you know, they re teenagers and this is during a time of the war on drugs.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so in a, specifically like in a black community in the inner city,
4
SPEAKER_01
The drug dealer was a hero, you know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like the gang leader was a hero because these guys grew up with like a lack of aspirations.
4
SPEAKER_01
There was like, you can be Martin Luther King if you want to and get shot.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, there s no Barack Obama at this point in time.
4
SPEAKER_01
So there s not a lot of models to follow.
4
SPEAKER_01
And all of a sudden you got these guys in the community who have the cars, who have the money, who have the, you know, they ve climbed the social ladder.
4
SPEAKER_01
And these are the guys that my uncles and my cousins,
4
SPEAKER_01
would admire and look up to.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so they re trying to emulate these guys, and I m trying to emulate them.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s just a cycle of tragic influence that just perpetuates to where you re like, I can t see myself being anything outside of what is put in front of me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And this is like, until Bill Cosby comes along, you don t see a black doctor on television, so you don t know that s a reality for your life.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
And now you re conditioned to like be this type of person, even if it s not in your DNA.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s what I started to wrestle with was like, man, I m just not, I m just not as tough as somebody.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m just allergic to bullets.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t know what it is.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
I just, I just don t like getting stabbed.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t think this is the route for me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you growing up in this environment where your artistic, you know, inclinations and your,
4
SPEAKER_01
you know, being sensitive is not something that s welcomed.
4
SPEAKER_01
And obviously everybody probably, a lot of people are sensitive and have these artistic bents, but they re not allowed to display them.
4
SPEAKER_01
So you suppress them and you try to become something that you re not, or you become what you have to become to survive.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that was a huge piece of my identity crisis was, you know, trying to be something that I don t think I was ever, it was never, I wasn t built to be, you know?
4
SPEAKER_00
How did you end up getting through that?
4
SPEAKER_00
Because that seems like you could easily stall out right there and start self-sabotaging and that s the end.
4
SPEAKER_01
Man, I honestly have the most resilient mother one will ever find.
4
SPEAKER_01
Her level of like, no, this will not happen.
4
SPEAKER_01
She would try anything and everything.
4
SPEAKER_01
My mom worked at a halfway house, so she was working with people who were in and out of prison all the time, so her level of navigating this world
4
SPEAKER_01
Her insight was just really keen.
4
SPEAKER_01
So dealing with me was like, she had all the Jedi mind tricks because she was using them for a lot of these guys who were coming in and out of prison.
4
SPEAKER_01
So just her tactics, she would do scared straight stuff to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
She d be like, oh, OK, all right.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, for her, it was like, I m just going to drop you off at jail, and we ll see what happens.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, you re going to do what?
4
SPEAKER_01
I m going to keep you out this system no matter what.
4
SPEAKER_01
And her determination was very strong.
4
SPEAKER_01
So she worked really hard to make sure
4
SPEAKER_01
you know, that I had opportunities to be, you know, all that I could be.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, she would investigate and ask questions.
4
SPEAKER_01
If she met somebody in a, you know, who was involved in the school, she d ask them, you know, what kind of programs I may be able to get them plugged into.
4
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, she would ask random neighbors and just always about trying to figure out how to make the most out of,
4
SPEAKER_01
my time and her time.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think that paid off for me in the end.
4
SPEAKER_01
And eventually, around 14, she snatched me out of the environment that I was in and said, look, this is not going to happen anymore.
4
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, she put me in a whole different atmosphere.
4
SPEAKER_00
At what point did you start getting really into hip hop?
4
SPEAKER_00
Because one thing I thought was kind of funny slash disturbing in your book was that you said Tupac started to influence you significantly and Tupac was almost like a surrogate dad in terms of role model, but that s not really a wholesome role model.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, work ethic, great.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, he worked his butt off, but the rest, not so sure.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, the thing about Tupac that a lot of people, you know, you have to listen to the album cuts a lot more than like the singles because Tupac was like,
4
SPEAKER_01
I think he was kind of like classic, just bipolar, schizophrenic rapper.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
There d be one song where he s telling women to keep their head up, and the next song he s like, I m going to kill everybody.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
And so I think the anger and the frustration
4
SPEAKER_01
is what drew me to a lot of the more violent, negative songs.
4
SPEAKER_01
But then there was a sensitive side that he would allow people to see that we just hadn t seen in hip hop prior to that.
4
SPEAKER_01
It just was not allowed.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, not allowed, it just was rare.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so that sensitive aspect of just expressing himself and talking about his pains and his
4
SPEAKER_01
And what about Heaven and his mom and a dear mama?
4
SPEAKER_01
And you re like, oh man, this is how I feel.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I don t have to hide it anymore.
4
SPEAKER_01
And he gave us the freedom to express ourselves a little more fully than just that bravado, machismo, gangster side that everyone was kind of putting on display.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I got into hip hop because my cousins were huge hip hop fans.
4
SPEAKER_01
were into everything and they would stay up late watching the rap videos when they would come on late at night.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I would sneak and stay up.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was like five or six years old, but I would sneak and stay up and just peer around the corner and watch all these rap videos.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it was like seeing another world.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was like, whoa, look at this.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I just fell in love instantly with that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I credit them for introducing me.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so at what point, well, first of all, your first performance was at a talent show and you did OPP by Naughty by Nature, is that?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, but now that you re a man of God, you can t be down with OPP, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
That s absolutely right.
4
SPEAKER_01
That is absolutely right, man.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t think it s healthy for anybody anyway, man.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s how diseases get spread around, man.
4
SPEAKER_01
Stick with your own.
4
SPEAKER_00
But you grew up in an environment that was slightly different from most of us.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, look, you grew up in what you had said yourself in the book was the ghetto.
4
SPEAKER_00
Your babysitter was cooking crack in the kitchen.
4
SPEAKER_00
How did you know it was crack, by the way?
4
SPEAKER_00
I m thinking, at what age are you like, what is that?
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, it s crack.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, what did she tell you?
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, you see, this is the funny thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
You don t learn that stuff until you re an adult and you re sitting back having a drink with your aunt
4
SPEAKER_01
And then they laugh about something like that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you re like, what did you just say?
4
SPEAKER_01
Did you just say what?
4
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s kind of like that kind of, that kind of stuff just comes out later and you re like, oh, okay.
4
SPEAKER_01
But you know, it s, it s not quite like the media would display it or like, you know, movies would picture it.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, we re talking about the early eighties where people didn t quite know what its capability was.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was like,
4
SPEAKER_01
It was just like the happening thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
Somebody had to try heroin first to be like, oh, OK, this is bad.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t think they saw it as like this super drug that s going to demolish the community at the time.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so that s kind of what ended up happening.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I have family members who fell victim to addiction and other family members who woke up and said, uh-uh, this is no good.
4
SPEAKER_01
We got to back away from this.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
I grew up, but you know what s funny is in every environment that I ve lived in or I stayed in, you never felt like it was the hood because your mom, your dad, your uncles, your grandparents always lived in something far worse.
4
SPEAKER_01
So their description of the hood was so much worse than what you were existing in.
5
SPEAKER_00
that it just wasn t like, you weren t even allowed to think your environment was bad.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
It was kind of like, we re eating dinner every night.
5
SPEAKER_00
My mom would eat dirt to keep her stomach from growling.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so I was like, I m not complaining.
5
SPEAKER_00
We re on government assistance, but I m not complaining.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m eating.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I never really thought of it as that bad.
5
SPEAKER_01
How is growing up in that kind of environment with the absentee father, the stepfather who is maybe rooting for you somewhat, maybe not so much, how has that affected the way that you raise your own kids?
5
SPEAKER_01
You have your own children now, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
5
SPEAKER_00
It has its ups and downs, it has its challenges.
5
SPEAKER_00
Obviously, you re motivated to be involved, you re motivated to be around, you re motivated
5
SPEAKER_00
to support them, to love them, um, to be everything that you did not get to experience.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so, you know, I m, I m riding bikes with my kids, which is something I ve never experienced with a grown man in my life.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
So that s just a completely, you know, foreign concept.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s a foreign concept.
5
SPEAKER_00
Um, but then on the flip side, you know, there s things that I don t know if, if this is good or bad, you know, my wife is like,
5
SPEAKER_00
I m trying to teach my son how to box.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m like, you gotta watch out, somebody might try you.
5
SPEAKER_00
And she s like, no one s gonna try him at this private school.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like, oh, you better be right.
5
SPEAKER_01
Probably she s right, but it doesn t hurt to be the guy who knows how to do that stuff.
5
SPEAKER_01
As long as you re keeping it defensive, I think that stuff is powerful.
5
SPEAKER_01
But yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but it s just, those are survival skills for me.
5
SPEAKER_00
For him, it s like, he s in like,
5
SPEAKER_00
you know, Lego club, you know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like, what is that?
5
SPEAKER_00
I don t, it s a different world.
5
SPEAKER_00
We live in a different world.
5
SPEAKER_01
If somebody tries to take your Legos, man, jab, jab, right hook.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, so it comes with this ups and downs.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know, my kids will finish their cereal and like pour the milk in the sink.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, that s, we, we never did that.
5
SPEAKER_00
You got to drink that milk.
5
SPEAKER_00
Cause that s not, you know, and my wife is like, there s more milk.
5
SPEAKER_00
We can buy more milk.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, can we?
5
SPEAKER_00
you re right, we can, let me calm down.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s different.
5
SPEAKER_01
Let me check my Grammy.
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, we can afford milk, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, let me look back on that Grammy.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it wasn t always smooth sailing for you though, man.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you had that rough childhood and then instead of just being like, religion, you were like, alright, how about some weed and some booze and it seemed like you were,
5
SPEAKER_01
kind of trying to reinvent yourself.
5
SPEAKER_01
You went by your middle name, which is Lecrae, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
And you were just kind of like, can I, how do I start over?
5
SPEAKER_01
And you kept trying to do that with substances as well.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, very true.
5
SPEAKER_00
You want to numb the pain, is really what you re trying to, what I was trying to do was numb the pain.
5
SPEAKER_00
And drugs is an easy way to do it.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know, drugs is an easy way, alcohol is an easy way to forget about, you know, let your inhibitions go.
5
SPEAKER_00
And you know, when your mind is racing constantly
5
SPEAKER_00
worries and anxieties and struggles and problems and fears.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like, I just need to escape my mind right now.
5
SPEAKER_00
And drugs and alcohol become an easy outlet to do those particular things.
5
SPEAKER_00
So, you know, they became a consistent part of
5
SPEAKER_00
of my life.
5
SPEAKER_00
And even though a lot of people say, oh, you found God, you re good.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s the cliche.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s a lot of Christians in Alcoholics Anonymous.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s a lot of religious people who are homeless.
5
SPEAKER_00
You talk to some guys on the street, they ll run down all types of incredible religious themes on you.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it doesn t
5
SPEAKER_00
mean they ve escaped, you know, the perils of life and the things that this life brings to you, so.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so you tried a few religions though, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you tried Islam, you tried a couple different religions.
5
SPEAKER_01
What were you looking for at that point?
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, what were you searching for?
5
SPEAKER_00
I think initially, like, you know, people say religion is a crutch, and I m okay with that.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m okay with that because I think, end of the day, there s people who are hobbling out here.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I knew I was.
5
SPEAKER_00
I wanted nothing to do with, not trying to be irresponsible with my life at all, but I wanted nothing to do with having to handle the aspect of meaning and purpose.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I d create my own purpose in life.
5
SPEAKER_00
That was just, to me, that s stressful.
5
SPEAKER_00
That just was too much for me.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m more prone to ruin my life than create purpose and meaning and worth for it.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I said, man, I gotta figure out what life, what s the meaning of life?
5
SPEAKER_00
Why am I here?
5
SPEAKER_00
It s gotta be more to life than just drinking, drugging, and sleeping with women.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s gotta be more to life than just making money and going to work every day.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s gotta be some sort of purpose, and that s when I went on my faith journey.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I don t regret it.
5
SPEAKER_00
It was great to
5
SPEAKER_00
to be informed on all these world religions and to learn about them from a deeper perspective.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I have a respect for people from different faiths because of that.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s a lot of Islamophobia in America right now and I think it s because people aren t informed of what Islam is about and they don t have any Muslim friends or anything along those lines.
5
SPEAKER_00
But what I found for me was that most people
5
SPEAKER_00
world religions are about you, in some shape, form, or fashion, kind of earning your way to heaven.
5
SPEAKER_00
And for me, Christianity was the only one that said, nah, you re a screw up.
5
SPEAKER_00
Let me do this for you.
5
SPEAKER_00
and you just trust me.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, I can rock with that.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_01
Right, there s the role model you ve never had, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, you know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
And so it s kind of like, hey, so you mean you do the work and I just trust you and follow you, I m with that.
5
SPEAKER_00
But if I got to do the work, this is going to be a bad situation.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m just going to have to, yeah, it s not going to work out.
5
SPEAKER_01
Have you seen my track record?
5
SPEAKER_01
I need an example here.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
5
SPEAKER_01
What other religions did you try besides Islam and Christianity?
5
SPEAKER_00
I looked into the Baha i faith, I looked into Buddhism, I looked into Rastafarianism just because I like to smoke weed, and I was like, man, this seems right.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like weed and religion, they have to go together in some kind of way.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so, yeah, man, I was determined.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, to me, it seems like
5
SPEAKER_01
The religious stuff aside, you re maybe just a passionate personality looking to deep dive into everything that you do, whether it s, as you state in the book, weed, women, religion, or records.
5
SPEAKER_01
Would you agree with that?
5
SPEAKER_01
Do you deep dive into everything?
5
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m a deep diver, man.
5
SPEAKER_00
I will sit up and research something for seven hours online, like Wikipedia and
5
SPEAKER_00
Google are the worst things they could have ever invented for somebody like me.
5
SPEAKER_00
Wikipedia, not so much, because I mean, I ve realized that it s not as factual as I like to be.
5
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, I d dive in, man.
5
SPEAKER_00
I need to know.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
I really, really have to know.
5
SPEAKER_00
And even with Faith, it was like, I was such a skeptic.
5
SPEAKER_00
I needed to know.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I needed to read everything.
5
SPEAKER_00
I needed to experience everything in terms of like,
5
SPEAKER_00
what people would say about drugs or anything along those lines.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of like, man, I m going all in.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m an all or nothing type of person.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I ve never kind of straddled the fence.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m just kind of an all or nothing type of guy.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you even did that with religion, which I can see from the book.
5
SPEAKER_01
The irony, though, is not lost on me when you stole your first Bible.
5
SPEAKER_01
That was a good one.
5
SPEAKER_01
Who does that?
5
SPEAKER_01
Who steals a Bible?
5
SPEAKER_01
Did you realize at the time that this was some irony happening?
5
SPEAKER_01
You just jacked that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Man, in my mind I was just thinking like, look, God, clearly you know how much I need this, so I don t think you re gonna have an issue with it, you know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
It s kinda like, if a person s starving, they have no money, no food, you gotta expect them to steal some food, man.
5
SPEAKER_00
So, yeah, I didn t think twice about it.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s the funniest thing about it, so.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, of course, and now you re probably giving away bibles, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I ll go buy you one, man.
5
SPEAKER_00
Don t steal that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Don t steal.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think there s just something there where it s like, you can t let that go.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s got to be in the back of your mind at some point.
5
SPEAKER_01
Even now though that your music is becoming more secular, you kind of can t win because when you were off track in your life,
5
SPEAKER_01
the religious stuff, you were really into that, you were worried about the judgment from other people, judgment from God, and now your stuff s becoming more secular, and you re getting criticism from religious folks, friends and people that you work with, the members of your church.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, man.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I mean, you know, I think you grow comfortable in your skin, and you say, man, this is who I am, you know, and I can t, like, placate to you
6
SPEAKER_01
for the rest of my life.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ve got to be me.
6
SPEAKER_01
The people that I know and love and trust, they know what I m about.
6
SPEAKER_01
They know what I m on.
6
SPEAKER_01
There s no pleasing everybody.
6
SPEAKER_01
At the end of the day, I ve got to answer to God for my life and not you.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m fully convinced that
6
SPEAKER_01
you know, the moves I m making and the things that I m doing artistically are not like, you know, going against my faith and my views and my beliefs.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so it s kind of like, man, you know, if you re not there, hey, I understand.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, I ve been there, but, you know, you ll grow, you ll mature and you ll see that, you know, there s far worse things in the world than doing a song with B.O.B.
6
SPEAKER_01
or, you know, I don t know, Justin Timberlake, whatever, man.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s like, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
You grow, you mature, you learn.
6
SPEAKER_01
And yeah, and I mean, I think a lot of times, man, and I love, I think, the religious community has done a lot of incredible things.
6
SPEAKER_01
Hospitals were started because of them.
6
SPEAKER_01
You got the Red Cross and all these wonderful outlets, Martin Luther King driven by his faith.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so, I think there s tons of great contributions, but at the same time, there s another side that just is,
6
SPEAKER_01
motivated by fear and when you re motivated by fear you live in a bubble and in a shell and you just kind of protect yourself from everything and you miss out on experiencing some amazing things because you re so worried about getting the cooties and I think that s where some education has to be done.
6
SPEAKER_00
It seems like both religious folks and non-religious folks fall into that category at the same time.
6
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
There s kind of like this, well, I don t want to do that because that s worldly, and then there s the whole, I don t want to do that because that s religious, which is not where my beliefs are, or it s weird.
6
SPEAKER_00
So it s like there s this tension between, and you see this at the Beyonce party, going right back to the beginning, is a lot of people were tense around you because you re a Christian, and they felt like they didn t know how to act around you.
6
SPEAKER_00
Meanwhile, you ve got all of these
6
SPEAKER_00
religious folks who I think feel like they don t know how to act around secular folks either.
6
SPEAKER_00
So there s just, you end up with this weird separation when it s supposed to do the opposite.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and that s exactly what happens.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of like, man, you know, everyone has unique wirings and giftings and compliment one another in so many beautiful ways and we miss out on the beauty of all that.
6
SPEAKER_01
We miss out on experiencing the beauty and diversity
6
SPEAKER_01
Obviously there s some things that we re not all going to agree on and, you know, and that s, that s fine.
6
SPEAKER_01
But when we miss out on what we do agree on, we miss out on, on how we can, um, you know, work together and, and, you know, help each other.
6
SPEAKER_01
It, it starts to turn into a us versus them instead of in, you know, a we, you know what I mean?
6
SPEAKER_01
And I think that s, that s tragic.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, it s, it s aching to race.
6
SPEAKER_01
and racism, you know what I mean?
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And that s very tragic to me.
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And so I have great friends from all walks of life, irreligious, religious, Muslim, Judaism, and I learn a lot, and I benefit from those relationships.
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And I think people will say the same for me, is their life is enriched by having me in their life as well.
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Last but not least, how do you handle critics?
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I mean, at this point in your artistic career, you re getting feedback from so many people.
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How do you know who to listen to and who to ignore?
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The easiest way to handle critics is ignoring them, just being honest.
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That s just, you really have to, because the thing about criticism, not healthy criticism, but just visceral, ugly criticism,
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Purpose is to tear you down.
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That s the intent.
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And so as soon as you start diving into it and it starts getting under your skin, it s working.
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The intention of that negativity is to pull you down.
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Someone is writing you in hopes to just berate you and make you feel like the scum of the earth.
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And as soon as you start getting frustrated by that, it s working.
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You know what I mean?
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Um, I always say, you know, coaches never change their plays because of fans in the stands.
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You know, you, you, you know, the play you re going to run, run it.
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They can t even hear the fans.
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I mean, sometimes they can, but it s like that guy all the way up there in, in the, you know, the binocular section or whatever, like who thinks he knows exactly what should happen.
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Like he doesn t, you know, you re on the field as a coach because you do.
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And you know, you re not going to do it perfectly, but you got to do what you
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been made to do, and that s kinda how I handle the criticism.
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How do you separate the super negative criticism from what s valid feedback?
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Because of course if someone s like, look, Cray, you suck, you re a moron, you re like, okay, ignore.
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But what if someone s like, hey man, you re going to X, Y, Z direction, this was too much X, this was too much A, B, C. How do you separate the feedback from just the negativity?
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I think if you have people who care about you,
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then those are the people that you listen to.
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The random person who just doesn t know me from Adam and doesn t know my motives, my heart, my struggles, it s just harder for them to know my intention.
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And most of them are going to assume your motives because they don t know you.
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But the people who know you, I think it s just really healthy for us to have friends who are not yes men.
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You want your friends who are there to comfort you in your lowest times, and then you also want your friends who
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you know are going to shoot it to you straight.
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And those are the friends I like to keep around is the ones who I know are going to shoot it to me straight.
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They re not going to sugarcoat it.
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They re not intimidated by me in any form.
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And so their criticism is the one that I really value and appreciate.
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But that guy on social media who is sincere as he wants to be, he just has a limited experience with me.
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So he doesn t quite know.
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he just doesn t know why I said what I said.
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He might even be misinterpreting it, and so, yeah.
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But Cray, is there anything else that I haven t asked you that you want to make sure you deliver to the AOC family?
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Man, I just hope that, one thing I ll say is that I m sure there s a lot of people out there who are chasing a dream or pursuing their goals in life or whatever, and I just encourage them all to
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It s about the integrity of being who you are made to be because there s no amount of money.
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There s no person in the world who can add value to who you are, like as a person, you know what I mean?
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And so if you believe that money and the affirmation of other people can add value to you, then you re already off on the wrong foot.
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And I would just reiterate that one more time to people, because I ve experienced both of them.
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You re sitting there listening to Kanye tell you how much he appreciates you, and then you re making more money than you would have ever imagined you making.
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It does not add a day to your life, nor does it add any value to your worth as a person.
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So if you get that, if you get anything, get that.
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LaCrey, thanks so much, man.
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This has been awesome.
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Yeah, man, appreciate you guys, man.
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It s dope.
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It s fun.
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Interesting stuff this guy is it was cool.
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He s very open it took a minute, but you know I think a lot of times these artists are used to these very superficial interviews It was great to see him just kind of get really open about it and and be very honest and his book is very honest as well a little bit towards
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the religious side of his development, because it was published by a Christian publisher, but the stories, I mean, talk about overcoming adversity and finally finding role models.
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It s a constant struggle.
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So thanks to Lecrae for that.
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And if you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Lecrae on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes, as well as the other resources mentioned on the show, including his book, Unashamed.
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You can tap our album art and most mobile podcast players to see the cheat sheet for this episode.
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We ll link to the show notes right on your phone.
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I m also on Twitter.
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I post a lot of things there that never make it to the show, and it s a great place to engage with me.
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I m at The Art of Charm on Twitter.
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Bootcamp and Art of Charm live program details
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bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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Remember, we sell out a few months in advance, even though we run those every week, so if you re thinking about coming in, even just a little, get in touch ASAP, get some info from us so you can plan ahead, and also check out the Social Capital Challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or you can text charmed to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
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It s all about improving your networking and connection skills, and inspiring those around you to develop a personal,
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and professional relationship with you.
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We ll also email you our fundamentals toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show and videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward every week.
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It ll make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker.
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The Art of Charm.com slash challenge or text charmed in the US to 33444.
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This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFillippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
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Show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead and tell your friends because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else either in person or shared on the web.
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So stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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keep me in my time zone when my mind s gone and i m flying home and i m stressed out and i m tempted to get that spy phone and go pull it up but you know what s up and you know that ain t gonna solve nothing i mean lord forbid i might fall or something and i m all another cause
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.