0
SPEAKER_00
And so what you want to try to do is change the context where people will do something because they want to do it, rather than doing something because they re simply being forced to by you, they re being bribed by you, and they re simply complying with you.
0
SPEAKER_00
They will do that, but it s short term.
0
SPEAKER_00
In the long term, what you want to do is you want to agitate people, create the conditions in which they want to do things for themselves.
0
SPEAKER_01
Welcome to the Art of Charm.
0
SPEAKER_01
I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
0
SPEAKER_01
Today we re talking with my friend Dan Pink, author of multiple best-selling books, including To Sell is Human.
0
SPEAKER_01
You should listen to this show because we re gonna talk about why sales and a sales skill set are a part of our lives whether we like it or not.
0
SPEAKER_01
the concepts of irritation versus agitation, in other words, the carrot or the stick, and how to use both to motivate others, a process called attunement and how it can make you more persuasive, and last but not least, tips for both introverts and extroverts to improve their social skill set and build better rapport.
0
SPEAKER_01
So enjoy this one with Daniel Pink.
0
SPEAKER_01
And by the way, if you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the Art of Charm Toolbox
0
SPEAKER_01
where we discuss concepts like body language and nonverbal communication, persuasion, networking, negotiation, mentorship, and everything else we teach here at the Art of Charm.
0
SPEAKER_01
In the United States, just text charmed to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
0
SPEAKER_01
Everywhere else, just go to theartofcharm.com.
0
SPEAKER_01
Also, you can find our full show notes for this and all previous episodes at theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
0
SPEAKER_01
Alright, let s talk to Daniel Pink.
0
SPEAKER_01
So Dan, we started the show in an interesting way that you asked me how I was doing, and I actually told you, honestly, having a little bit of an off day, kind of weird, don t really know how to shake these things when it happens.
0
SPEAKER_01
What do you do when you have an off day, when you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?
0
SPEAKER_01
How do you handle that?
0
SPEAKER_00
You know, I have to say, that happens to me quite a bit, and my strategy, such as it is, is not to indulge myself and just get to work.
0
SPEAKER_00
So rather than sit and think about it, rather than wonder why I m on, oh, what s off today, what s going on, did I sleep the wrong way, did I drink too much, what happened?
0
SPEAKER_00
I think the best solution is just to get to work.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I find there s something about, with many things, simply the momentum of getting to work that can cure a lot of ills.
0
SPEAKER_00
So just getting right back on your usual track.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it reminds me of this great line from Julius Irving, the Dr. J of the basketball, the Hall of Fame NBA and ABA player, and he said once, he was interviewed by David Halberstam, the late great journalist, and Irving said, I m paraphrasing, but he said, being a professional is doing what you love to do even on the days you don t feel like doing it.
0
SPEAKER_01
And so that s where you re at with it.
0
SPEAKER_01
You re like, look, this is just about toughing it out.
0
SPEAKER_01
Dr. J has written my prescription for this ill.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yes, nice.
0
SPEAKER_01
It sounds like, so you work through it and you just get as quickly back onto your routine as possible from the sound of it.
0
SPEAKER_00
And sometimes you don t get back on the routine.
0
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes you just have a crappy day.
0
SPEAKER_00
But to me it s a matter of not indulging.
0
SPEAKER_00
And this is really important to me, Jordan, because as you and I are talking, I m working on a book right now.
0
SPEAKER_00
I m writing a book.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that s just excruciating.
0
SPEAKER_00
And if I sat around complaining all the time about it, I would never get anything done.
0
SPEAKER_00
So I think that Seth Godin has written about this.
0
SPEAKER_00
Steven Pressfield has written about this.
0
SPEAKER_00
I think that what makes a professional is that he or she shows up.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that s the blunt force method that I ve used for myself.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense that you have to get back to your routine as much as possible, and sometimes you re right, yeah, being a professional, you just have to know how not to indulge.
0
SPEAKER_01
Today, though, I ll admit, I indulged.
0
SPEAKER_01
I was like, I ve got optional stuff, I m going to just not do it.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I curled up in a ball and took a nap, which I never do, which makes me think like, uh-oh, am I getting sick?
0
SPEAKER_01
But that s interesting, because when you indulge, you start going down this negative thought process, and I m not saying you re gonna make yourself sick with it, but it s really easy to have
0
SPEAKER_01
waking up on the wrong side of the bed, snowball into, woe is me, and having a terrible day, when really you could just kind of suck it up, if you really focused on sucking it up, even for just 10, 15 minutes, and got to work and got back in the groove.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and I have to say, you know, naps are not the worst thing in the world.
0
SPEAKER_00
In fact, believe it or not, just strangely enough, I ve been doing a little bit of research on nap for this, something that I m writing, and there s some pretty good evidence that naps can be quite useful for you.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, don t get me wrong, I love a nap, I just, I m not practiced with it, but maybe that s a skill for another day.
0
SPEAKER_00
It is, yeah, you gotta do it right.
0
SPEAKER_00
There s naps and there s naps.
0
SPEAKER_00
The problem, at least in my reading of the research that people have, that I ve had myself, is I ve never been a napper.
0
SPEAKER_00
I ve hated naps.
0
SPEAKER_00
You gotta keep them pretty short.
0
SPEAKER_00
you gotta keep them pretty short.
0
SPEAKER_00
Once you go past, say, 25 minutes or so of napping, you re so deeply asleep.
0
SPEAKER_00
You just went back to bed at that point.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and so when you wake up, you spend, like, it doesn t save you any time, and it doesn t refresh you as much because you re spending another 15, 20 minutes trying to get back to your baseline level of awakeness.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s interesting.
0
SPEAKER_01
I didn t know, so there s a penalty to taking too long of a nap.
0
SPEAKER_01
You have to be disciplined even while you re asleep, man.
0
SPEAKER_01
This is BS.
0
SPEAKER_00
No, no, no, no, this is smart.
0
SPEAKER_00
I wish we were doing a TV thing because I could draw a chart for you to show this about the length of naps and how long it takes to recover.
0
SPEAKER_00
There s some actually, no joke, it happens to be front of mind because I was just reading this research, but there s some pretty good evidence of that.
0
SPEAKER_00
And what I do, on the off chance it s useful for your readers, as I ve been experimenting with it myself, what I do is I set my phone alarm countdown for 25 minutes.
0
SPEAKER_00
and then I lie down, and then I just get up when the 25-minute buzzer goes off.
0
SPEAKER_00
So if it takes me five or 10 minutes to fall asleep, that means I can nap for 15 or 20 minutes, and that s really the sweet spot in terms of giving you the refresh without giving you that kind of alertness deficit that you sometimes have to crawl out of when you nap for too long.
0
SPEAKER_01
Good to know, and I think it s funny, because I m afraid to take naps, and I think a lot of people do it wrong, but now we got a nap game plan, and that s a game plan I can get behind.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yes, indeed, we have our nap game planned, so we re all set.
0
SPEAKER_00
All your listeners now are gonna click off and take a 25 minute nap.
0
SPEAKER_01
I know, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
Like, don t do it during the show, and don t do it while driving.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you today is because I ve heard a lot of good things about you through mutual friends, and usually when a book is talked about as positively as yours has been, especially to sell as human, there s a threshold at which I become suspicious of how good it actually is, because when books are relatively unknown, that could go either way.
0
SPEAKER_01
When they re talked about a little bit,
0
SPEAKER_01
I think, oh, there must be something to this.
0
SPEAKER_01
But when it s talked about a lot, it has the opposite effect on me, just probably because we re around marketers and things like that a lot, where I thought, okay, what s really happening here?
0
SPEAKER_01
Is this guy just a master marketer, or is this book that good?
0
SPEAKER_01
And not to blow sunshine where there isn t any, but I ve read
0
SPEAKER_01
to sell as human for the first time recently.
0
SPEAKER_01
I m surprised I haven t read it before.
0
SPEAKER_01
Probably just wanted to be the one guy who hadn t.
0
SPEAKER_01
I love it, and I don t like a lot of the stuff that I read, but I really, really liked the book because there s a lot of original stuff in here that s not just make sure you re following up with your prospects every day.
0
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you know, the basics.
0
SPEAKER_01
You mentioned you re writing another book.
0
SPEAKER_01
I gotta ask you, if it s so excruciating, how come you keep doing it?
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s a great question, Jordan.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I ve actually wondered that myself.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I don t have a very good answer.
0
SPEAKER_00
But the answer that I m giving myself is that it s what I do.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s how I, at some level, it s how I think about the world.
0
SPEAKER_00
So if I talk to somebody, and we start talking about a set of ideas, oh, you know what,
0
SPEAKER_00
and that d be an awesome book.
0
SPEAKER_00
In fact, the way to do it would be to be X, Y, and Z. And there are these moments, though, it s often very excruciating, there are these moments, at least in writing for me, they re rare.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t know the percentage, probably 3% of the time, where you have moments of...
0
SPEAKER_00
transcendence that are unlike anything I ve ever experienced, where you come up with a thought that you had no idea that you had.
0
SPEAKER_00
And then it turns out to be pretty amazing.
0
SPEAKER_00
Like you ve learned something from yourself, or you come up with a way to phrase something that is so original.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s like, holy crap, did I just think of that?
0
SPEAKER_00
And so I think it s those 3% moments of transcendence, at least for me, carry me through the 97% moments of drudgery and pain.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so you think about the world in books, which is, it s kind of a painful way to see things, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
Because it s not just, you know, if you think about the world in pictures, you can get a camera, you can take a lot of shots and really mess with it.
0
SPEAKER_01
If you think about the world even in oil pastels, you can create something brilliant in a few days or a few weeks.
0
SPEAKER_01
I m not an artist, I have no idea how long that stuff takes.
0
SPEAKER_01
Watercolor, same deal, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
A day or so, or even a few hours.
0
SPEAKER_01
If you think about the world in books, man, you re in trouble.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, at some level I m a literary agent trapped in a writer s body.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, right.
0
SPEAKER_00
I love coming up with ideas for books, figuring out how to craft a book that no one has written before.
0
SPEAKER_00
There are a lot of things that I m curious about and I m like, oh man, that would make a really good book.
0
SPEAKER_00
I would totally read a book about that.
0
SPEAKER_00
And to some extent, the books that I write, one reason that I write them is that I want to read them.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that s certainly cheaper to sell as human.
0
SPEAKER_00
I ve had a lot of experiences interviewing business people and spending time around companies and whatnot and talking to people who are in sales.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I found that none of them were like the stereotype of what I had in my head, what many of us have in our head about salespeople.
0
SPEAKER_00
They were really smart, really sharp.
0
SPEAKER_00
And then I realized
1
SPEAKER_00
is also that so much of what I do as a business owner, as a writer, as a father even, involves selling and persuading.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I wanted to read a decent, good, smart book about sales and persuasion.
1
SPEAKER_00
Except for Cialdini s Influence, which is a remarkable book, there aren t that many great books out there.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I decided at some level to write a book about sales for people who might never read a book about sales.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think this is an important realization because we re looking at fewer and fewer, just in the market, in the world, fewer OG salesmen who are glad-handing and kind of following up and putting you through the assumption close or whatever the techniques are.
1
SPEAKER_01
There s fewer and fewer tactical salesmen and peddlers.
1
SPEAKER_01
But people, even in business, we re moving more towards individual contractors or entrepreneurs who have to manage people or solopreneurs who work alone.
1
SPEAKER_01
we re kind of all in sales whether we like it or not.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I think that s an important realization because a lot of people say, I don t want to be in sales, I hate selling, I hate the profession of selling, I m not in sales.
1
SPEAKER_01
And what I m kind of hearing from you and what I saw in the book and what I ve noticed just through my observations since reading it, is that you might say you hate sales, just like people say they hate networking.
1
SPEAKER_01
but if you re ignoring it, you re either being willfully ignorant and oblivious to the secret game being played around you, and thereby losing it, or you re just saying, I m not a salesperson, and just cutting yourself off at the knees.
1
SPEAKER_00
I have only one thing to say to that analysis, is amen.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m with you.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, you started to research the sales book, and like you said, you noticed it even as a father, and I assume you don t mean selling your children, but persuading them.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
Although, man, I didn t think about that.
1
SPEAKER_00
That could have made things a lot easier.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yes, it could have.
1
SPEAKER_01
Short term, anyway.
1
SPEAKER_01
But there s a trend, as you mentioned, towards micro-entrepreneurship.
1
SPEAKER_01
Tell us what that is.
1
SPEAKER_01
Prove to us that sales is everywhere and so that people don t just have to take my word for it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, I mean, it s embedded in your very question, is you want me to sell you on the idea.
1
SPEAKER_00
Ah, touche.
1
SPEAKER_00
Touche, Dan Pink.
1
SPEAKER_00
Even the very act of what we re doing right now is that way, but there are other indicators of it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And some really, really interesting indicators in what people do for a living and the nature of work today.
1
SPEAKER_00
One of them, which you mentioned before, is this move toward people working as solopreneurs, as proprietors of very small businesses, as independent contractors, people in what s called polyemployment, that is, they re doing more than one thing, people with side gigs.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so if you are working for yourself,
1
SPEAKER_00
You re in sales i ve never gotten any pushback from somebody who is working for him or herself on this claim that they re not in sales so if you re on itinerary graphic designer you re selling your graphic design services all the time you re not nearly cranking out graphic designs part of what you do is selling so you got the rise of small entrepreneurs as one facet there another thing that s happening is.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think it s pretty interesting is that even in other kinds of jobs, there s much less segmentation within a firm.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wrote about a couple of companies, software companies, one of them is doing in the billions of revenue, and they don t have salespeople.
1
SPEAKER_00
Why is that?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because they consider everybody part of it, like their engineers are their sales force in the way that they ve structured the business.
1
SPEAKER_00
So that s another reason why so much of us are in sales.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then the other thing, if you look at the U.S.
1
SPEAKER_00
workforce,
1
SPEAKER_00
The biggest, by far, job growth in the U.S.
1
SPEAKER_00
workforce has been in two sectors, education and healthcare.
1
SPEAKER_00
And those are professions all about selling.
1
SPEAKER_00
Teachers are selling students on the idea of learning, of learning how to do a quadratic equation.
1
SPEAKER_00
Healthcare professionals, whether they re physical therapists selling, hey, you ve got to do this exercise, or a physician saying, you ve got to take this medicine.
1
SPEAKER_00
All those have this degree of sales without a cash register ringing,
1
SPEAKER_00
embedded right in it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so if you actually go to the guts of what people do every day, a remarkable portion of it is some form of selling.
1
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes you re selling a product or service.
1
SPEAKER_00
Other times, you re basically asking someone, hey, you give something up, I give something up, we ll make a deal and we ll both be better off, even though the cash register is not ringing, even though the sale is not denominated in dollars, but is denominated in effort or attention or commitment or zeal.
1
SPEAKER_01
And we re doing this inside and outside our businesses.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think it s important to note because I think people might be able to swallow the jagged pill of selling because they decided to start their own business or because they re in a sales role temporarily till they can get themselves out of it or something like that.
1
SPEAKER_01
But I think it s important to realize the greater point of the book, which is that you re in sales no matter, you could be a stay-at-home dad or mom.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re in sales, period.
1
SPEAKER_01
Anytime you have to interact with anybody.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes, and as you said, Jordan, at the beginning, a lot of us don t like that.
1
SPEAKER_00
A lot of us kind of recoil at that.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we can talk about why that is.
1
SPEAKER_00
If you think about just anybody who s listening to your show who s an individual contributor at a company, all right?
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, you are going to a meeting and you re pitching an idea.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re selling.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe one time you re gonna ask for a raise.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re selling.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re trying to convince your boss that you should do this project rather than that project.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re selling.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re trying to convince a colleague to come over on your team rather than another team.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re selling.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, over and over and over.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think that it s really important to talk about why people have this visceral response to selling.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think it has to do with information.
1
SPEAKER_00
Most of what we ve known about sales of anything has come from a world of information asymmetry.
1
SPEAKER_00
where the seller always has more information than the buyer.
1
SPEAKER_00
When the seller has more information than the buyer, the seller can rip you off.
1
SPEAKER_00
But from basically the very beginning of commerce, the first time there was any kind of commerce among human beings, whether it s some guy selling a goat in exchange for shells.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, the seller always had an information advantage.
1
SPEAKER_00
Almost everything we know about commerce from the history of human civilization has been a situation in which the seller had a lot more information than the buyer.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is why people think that selling is sleazy, because they ve been buyers in a world of information asymmetry.
1
SPEAKER_00
But what s happened in the last 10 years is that things have sort of flipped.
1
SPEAKER_00
Many, many markets are no longer information asymmetry, but are more or less information parity.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that s a very, very different world.
1
SPEAKER_00
When buyers and sellers are evenly matched on information, the seller cannot take the low road.
1
SPEAKER_00
The seller will be found out.
1
SPEAKER_00
Forget about the moral side of it for a moment.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s a bad strategy.
1
SPEAKER_01
So this has changed the game because now, if you re telling me something, I can look on my phone in the middle of the conversation with you and find out whether or not this is the lowest price we ve ever offered, or this is.
1
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, precisely.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I ll give you an example from my own life, okay?
1
SPEAKER_00
So, if you think about car sales, okay, this quintessential American sales transaction.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so I live in Washington, D.C.
1
SPEAKER_00
So not that long ago, my family and I bought a car.
1
SPEAKER_00
We re a one-car family.
1
SPEAKER_00
We have a suburban setting here.
1
SPEAKER_00
So we have one car.
1
SPEAKER_00
So about three years ago, we bought a car, okay?
1
SPEAKER_00
Think about buying a car three years ago, or today, versus, say, 20 years ago.
1
SPEAKER_00
20 years ago, if I went into a car dealer, that car dealer would know a lot more about cars, a lot more about that make and model than I ever could, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
This is why we have the principle of buyer beware.
1
SPEAKER_00
huge information advantage for, say, the Toyota dealer in Rockville, Maryland, who s selling me a car in 1996.
1
SPEAKER_00
Today, I go into that Prius dealer, Toyota dealer, I know what every dealer in Washington is charging for a Toyota Prius.
1
SPEAKER_00
We had a trade-in, and the guy offered, it was ridiculous.
1
SPEAKER_00
I said, so what would you give me for the trade-in?
1
SPEAKER_00
And he does this elaborate little dance where he goes in the back, oh, I ve got to check something.
1
SPEAKER_00
Then he comes on and he writes the number on a piece of paper and kind of swirls it at me in this sort of grandiloquent way.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, what?
1
SPEAKER_00
And I get on my phone.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, this is the price of a trade in for this particular car that I m trading in, you know, show them to it on my phone.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, even so, so we ve gone from this world where buyers have not much information, not many choices, no way to talk back to a world where they got lots of information, lots of choices, and all kinds of ways to talk back.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s a fundamentally different world.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, this is a great insight because we re looking at the tactics are now completely destroyed.
1
SPEAKER_01
This is like trench warfare versus after airplanes, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
This is just, you can t come at us with that stuff anymore because we will just go right over you.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s a good analogy, I like that.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that s exactly what it is.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s a more antiseptic way that I was about to say it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yours is better, is to say it s not a difference in
1
SPEAKER_00
degree it s a difference in kind, all right?
1
SPEAKER_00
It s not like, oh, this is a different kind of trench warfare.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, it s a different kind of warfare, period.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it makes all the other tactics irrelevant and obsolete, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
You really, you can t come at us with that stuff, because, I mean, I can imagine him going, hold on, I have to ask my manager, and it s like, well, you go ahead, but I m not gonna sit out here in the suspense that you think you re creating, because if your manager says no, I m literally going to show you the same screen, and I m gonna show him the same screen,
1
SPEAKER_01
and if you still say no, I m just gonna go anywhere else and show them the screen until I get what I want, because this is what it actually is.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right, I m gonna go to one of the other 18 dealers in the Washington metropolitan area that are selling a Toyota Prius for basically this price.
1
SPEAKER_01
And resent you for trying to pull the wool over my eyes and definitely never do business with you, even if you do offer me that price, because now you re jerking me around.
1
SPEAKER_00
Jordan, I ll see you
2
SPEAKER_03
and raise you on that, because in this particular sales transaction, I won t go into all the details, not that interesting, but we ended up having a point of sale, which is a horrible, horrible experience.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m really bad.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I was so ticked off, I tweeted about it, you know, and I got a call the next day from the dealership.
2
SPEAKER_03
the head of the dealership apologizing.
2
SPEAKER_03
What can you do to make it right, okay?
2
SPEAKER_03
It s not only like if you mistreat somebody, they lose you as a customer.
2
SPEAKER_03
With Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn, and all these other kinds of networks, people can broadcast.
2
SPEAKER_03
the unfair treatment.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so mistreating me is not losing one customer, it s threatening to lose 10 or 15 or 20 or 30.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, now you re not just pushing your luck with one person, you re pushing your luck with that person and everybody that they influence, which, had they Googled you, they definitely would have given you the price on your stupid phone.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, like it s not worth it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Give them the price.
2
SPEAKER_01
Give them the Prius.
2
SPEAKER_03
It doesn t even matter who it is.
2
SPEAKER_03
Anybody who comes in there and says, hello, this is the price.
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, come on.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s sort of archaic about why we re even haggling over something like this in the first place when there s so much transparency for that kind of product.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s not some kind of specialized B2B solution.
2
SPEAKER_03
solution where someone is coming to a business and installing, say, a computer system and a knowledge management system that has to be tailored and customized.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s a freaking Prius.
2
SPEAKER_03
All right.
2
SPEAKER_03
It has four wheels.
2
SPEAKER_03
It has some seats, a steering wheel.
2
SPEAKER_03
It comes in a finite set of colors there.
2
SPEAKER_03
OK, this is kind of a commodity product here, guys.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, even if you re not quote-unquote in sales, if ever your competitive advantage is, well, other people probably don t know any better, so that s a bad competitive advantage that is temporary at best and very tenuous, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
If you re selling things because people can t find out that there s a better price, if your services that you provide for your own employer, or if you re a solopreneur, or if you work for another company, if your competitive advantage is nobody knows there are better alternatives out there, you are in trouble.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re building on sand.
2
SPEAKER_03
You re in big trouble.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
You might have an okay today, but you re gonna have a series of painful tomorrows.
2
SPEAKER_00
Over the last 17 years, we have launched our fair share of online courses, coaching programs, and finding the right platform has always been a challenge.
2
SPEAKER_02
They say if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life.
2
SPEAKER_02
But if you re an entrepreneur, you know the hard work that comes with it.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s why you need Kajabi.
2
SPEAKER_02
Kajabi makes it easy to run your entire online business from one platform so you can focus on what you love, creating.
2
SPEAKER_00
Kajabi is the ultimate all-in-one platform that helps creators and entrepreneurs build successful online businesses by unlocking predictable recurring revenue.
2
SPEAKER_02
No matter your niche, Kajabi makes it easy to turn your skills, passions, and experiences into enriching online courses, exclusive membership sites, subscription podcasts, thriving communities, personalized coaching, and more.
2
SPEAKER_00
The best part, Kajabi doesn t cut into your revenue because everything is owned and controlled by you.
2
SPEAKER_00
So keep 100% of what you earn.
2
SPEAKER_02
And with Kajabi, you also get robust analytics, easy payment options, email marketing tools, and customizable website templates, all built in.
2
SPEAKER_00
You don t even need a huge audience to make sustainable income.
2
SPEAKER_00
There are thousands of creators on Kajabi making six and seven figures with less than 50,000 followers.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right now, Kajabi is offering a free 30-day trial to start your business.
2
SPEAKER_02
If you go to kajabi.com slash charm, that s K-A-J-A-B-I.com slash charm.
2
SPEAKER_00
Go to kajabi.com slash charm and join the creators and entrepreneurs who have made over $7 billion.
2
SPEAKER_02
Hey, Art of Charm listeners, I m excited to share a new podcast I ve been absolutely binging.
2
SPEAKER_02
Winning is an everyday mindset, and Craig Robinson and John Calipari are here to help.
2
SPEAKER_02
On Ways to Win podcast, Craig and Coach Cal use their on-court wisdom to solve your off-court problems.
2
SPEAKER_02
Whether it s trouble at home or a workplace dilemma, the coaches will help you find a winning formula for success.
2
SPEAKER_02
You ll hear from prominent athletes, business leaders, and celebrities who reveal insights that made them into the leaders they are today.
2
SPEAKER_02
And don t miss President Obama sharing how he deals with pressure by projecting confidence, believing in your team, and taking criticism.
2
SPEAKER_02
Listen to Ways to Win wherever you get your podcasts.
2
SPEAKER_01
Now, back to the show.
2
SPEAKER_01
This should be something that is the canary in the coal mine where you just go, I ve gotta start working on my ability outside this, because it s only a matter of time.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s literally only a matter of time, because information over time is getting easier to access, unless you work for somebody who s completely ignorant and isn t willing to do the work, and that s where you re stuck.
2
SPEAKER_03
Information asymmetry, believe me, has not completely disappeared, but it s moved more quickly and more powerfully to something close to information parity,
2
SPEAKER_03
than most people ever expected.
2
SPEAKER_03
And you also have this, I think in general, this is not all positive in terms of our social lives and our moral lives and our political lives, but there s this greater and greater transparency in everything.
2
SPEAKER_03
And there s fewer places to hide, to hide yourself, to hide information.
2
SPEAKER_01
What I really liked about this book was not just that it changes the way that we look at selling and changes the way that we look at sales or whether or not sales is for us, but you have some really interesting social dynamics concepts in here, whether you consider them that or not, such as irritation versus agitation.
2
SPEAKER_01
Can you speak to that?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because I like this, this seems to be very original or at least something I haven t seen before.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m glad that you mentioned that because it actually underscores one of the other things that you were saying, which is that that s a concept, that irritation, agitation in sales.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s a concept that doesn t come from a salesperson.
2
SPEAKER_03
It comes from a teacher.
2
SPEAKER_03
who s talking about that.
2
SPEAKER_03
And it ends up being extremely relevant for that.
2
SPEAKER_03
So this guy Larry for lots of says, he talks about irritation, okay, is challenging people to do something that they don t want to do.
2
SPEAKER_03
This would be my son, like,
2
SPEAKER_03
taking out the garbage, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
He really doesn t want to do it.
2
SPEAKER_03
Agitation is that agitation, this guy Larry says, is challenging people to do something that they actually want to do.
2
SPEAKER_03
I think that s an interesting way to put it, and it goes to a lot of different pieces of research and social science about why people do things and how you get people to do things.
2
SPEAKER_03
I hate to use my son as an example again, but irritation is the only way to get him to take out the garbage, okay?
2
SPEAKER_03
Come on, you gotta take out the garbage, okay?
2
SPEAKER_03
It s irritation, okay?
2
SPEAKER_03
Agitation, though, I can use agitation with suggesting that he go and practice whatever sport he s involved in in that particular season.
2
SPEAKER_03
In fact, today, it was like I said, okay, hey, you haven t hit off a tee, when s the last time you hit off a tee?
2
SPEAKER_03
Oh, yeah, I gotta do that.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s something that he wanted to do.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so if we think about like here we are moving people to do different things and this guy Larry for lots of this teacher it says, you know, we got to think about most of what we want to do is agitate and this is such an important concept in such a deep way a few years ago.
2
SPEAKER_03
I wrote a book about the science of motivation.
2
SPEAKER_03
Okay, how do you motivate people?
2
SPEAKER_03
And one of the leaders in the field of human motivation, a guy at the University of Rochester named Ed Deasy says, we have to get past this idea that motivation is something that one person does to another and recognize that motivation is something that people do for themselves.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so what you want to try to do is change the context where people will do something because they want to do it.
2
SPEAKER_03
rather than doing something because they re simply being forced to by you, they re being bribed by you, and they re simply complying with you.
2
SPEAKER_03
They will do that, but it s short term.
2
SPEAKER_03
In the long term, what you want to do is you want to agitate people, create the conditions in which they want to do things for themselves.
2
SPEAKER_01
So how do we create those conditions?
2
SPEAKER_01
What are some techniques or mindsets that we can use to help create those conditions?
2
SPEAKER_03
Well, there are a number of different things.
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, you know, in the book, I talk about if we accept this idea that we re all in sales, no matter what we re doing, but sales isn t what it used to be, because we re no longer in a world of information asymmetry.
2
SPEAKER_03
The next question is, that is, okay, what do you do about it?
2
SPEAKER_03
And there I look for answers in this wide, rich array of social science.
2
SPEAKER_03
not in sales per se, but in economics, behavior economics, cognitive science, linguistics, social psychology.
2
SPEAKER_03
One of the principles that comes out is this idea of attunement, which is, can you get out of your own head and see things from someone else s point of view?
2
SPEAKER_03
And that ends up being, if there s one skill that I would like everybody to start working on, it is getting out of their own heads and trying to get into someone else s heads.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so there are all kinds of ways that you can do that.
2
SPEAKER_03
For instance,
2
SPEAKER_03
There s a big difference, say, between persuading up and persuading down.
2
SPEAKER_03
So when you re persuading up, say, inside of a company, the most important thing you can do, according to the research, is not trying to attune yourself emotionally to the boss, but figuring out the boss s interests.
2
SPEAKER_03
What s in it for the boss?
2
SPEAKER_03
So, part of it is, when do you focus on interest and when do you focus on emotions?
2
SPEAKER_03
And when you re persuading up, say, inside a company, you focus on interest, no question about it.
2
SPEAKER_03
For other kinds of things, maybe peer-to-peer or with your family, you want to focus on emotions.
2
SPEAKER_03
One of the things that I tried to do in the book is explore some of these great precepts of sales and see whether there s any scientific way
3
SPEAKER_01
underneath them.
3
SPEAKER_01
So let s take something like mimicry.
3
SPEAKER_01
There are many people who have been taught, oh, what you should do is you should mimic the other person s gestures.
3
SPEAKER_01
You should mimic the way that they re standing, okay?
3
SPEAKER_01
It sounds completely duplicitous, but there is a giant volume of research saying, you know what?
3
SPEAKER_01
That s actually effective.
3
SPEAKER_01
That is, when you stand the way someone else is standing, you actually do a better job of
3
SPEAKER_01
understanding where they re coming from when we re talking about sales particularly of more complicated things more technical things one of the areas where technical sales people go right.
3
SPEAKER_01
Is there always use their own specialized jargon rather than the customers.
3
SPEAKER_01
And there s a lot of evidence of mimicking people s language.
3
SPEAKER_01
Using their words is extraordinarily effective.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s one great study of waiters, some European country, I can t remember either, I think it might have been Holland, where they had one set of waiters take the order as usual from customers.
3
SPEAKER_01
They had another set of waiters repeat the customer s order back word for word.
3
SPEAKER_01
That is, they were trained, mimic the customer.
3
SPEAKER_01
The customer says, I want a roast beef sandwich with
3
SPEAKER_01
three pickles on the side, and a diet Pepsi, you would say, okay, you want a roast beef sandwich with three pickles on the side and a diet Pepsi.
3
SPEAKER_01
Repeat their words back word for word.
3
SPEAKER_01
Was there any difference in these two sets of waiters and waitresses?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, it turned out the orders were accurate most of the time.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, there wasn t any difference in the accuracy of the orders.
3
SPEAKER_01
But when you look at the dependent variable of tips, the second group, the group that repeated the order back word for word, earned 70, 70% higher tips.
3
SPEAKER_01
What I was trying to do here is say, what works and what doesn t?
3
SPEAKER_01
If we re persuading all the time, we re doing it in a remade landscape, how can we follow some evidence-based rules about what to do?
3
SPEAKER_01
Sorry, Jordan, to circle back to your original question, one of the most important things is how do you attune yourself to other people?
3
SPEAKER_01
How do you stop, think, listen, ask good questions, say, where s this person coming from, and then say, do I focus on their interests, do I focus on their emotions?
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe I can get a better, deeper understanding if I repeat their words.
3
SPEAKER_01
There are also some very interesting dynamics regarding power, that is feeling powerful can distort your perspective-taking abilities.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so, but again, at the heart of all of it is attunement.
3
SPEAKER_01
Get out of your own head.
3
SPEAKER_01
See things from someone else s point of view.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I definitely understand the idea of getting out of your own head.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, one of the things we teach at our live programs at the Art of Charm is not only the mimicry and mirroring and things like that, but getting out of your own head, because basically you re speculating on how other people might be perceiving you.
3
SPEAKER_00
You lose presence, you stop listening as effectively.
3
SPEAKER_00
and then you start overthinking weird stuff that you shouldn t be doing, like your nonverbal communication and things like that that should kind of be on autopilot, and you end up with a very awkward interaction, which not only does that break any rapport that you had, but it s impossible to build more of that nonverbal rapport if you re constantly working on kind of
3
SPEAKER_00
freaking out, essentially, about how you re being perceived by others.
3
SPEAKER_00
I love the concept of attunement.
3
SPEAKER_00
It sounds like something we normally call calibration, as well.
3
SPEAKER_00
You did mention something else interesting, that when we become powerful, we lose our ability to chameleon a little bit.
3
SPEAKER_00
Can you tell us about that?
3
SPEAKER_00
That seems important, because it seems like our ability to get us to a leadership position could then end up being exactly the thing that makes us a bad leader, or a poor salesman, so to speak.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you re exactly right, and I think that as you say that, many people who are listening can think of somebody who fits that description very well.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s some really interesting research showing basically this, I m oversimplifying a tad but not too much, that there s an inverse relationship between feelings of power and perspective taking.
3
SPEAKER_01
That is, the more powerful you feel, in general, the more your perspective taking abilities degrade.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it makes a lot of sense, because if you re feeling powerful, there are all various kinds of experimental manipulations to make people feel powerful that social psychologists have used to test this proposition.
3
SPEAKER_01
But if you re feeling powerful, you think, well, why should I take someone else s perspective?
3
SPEAKER_01
If they were as awesome as me, they would be the one in power.
3
SPEAKER_01
And feeling powerful actually can be very, very helpful sometimes.
3
SPEAKER_01
It can give people greater confidence in job interviews, in doing things that they re uncertain about.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so feeling powerful isn t a bad thing inherently, but there is evidence that it degrades your perspective-taking abilities.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so this is, as you say, this is exactly where bosses go awry.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you look at why people leave jobs, they usually leave jobs because of a bad boss.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think the biggest flaw of many bad bosses is that they don t take their employees  perspective enough.
3
SPEAKER_01
They don t consider things from the employee s point of view.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so what you have to do as a leader persuader, persuader leader, is you have to think of your power as almost a dial.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think people do think of power as a dial, but they think it only goes up.
3
SPEAKER_01
there are actually some times where you want to dial down your feelings of power, and that will increase the acuity of your perspective taking.
3
SPEAKER_01
That is, feeling less powerful can make you more effective.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a little bit of a paradox for a lot of people who associate this direct linear relationship between power and effectiveness, but actually reducing your feelings of power can enhance your perspective taking abilities, which in turn can make you a more effective leader.
3
SPEAKER_00
So how do we reduce our feelings of power?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because it would be pretty hard to do that if I m the CEO.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so let s say this would never happen in real life, but we can create this fantasy land for a podcast.
3
SPEAKER_01
So let s say I m your boss, okay?
3
SPEAKER_01
I m your boss, we re in a company X, and I m your boss, and I want you to do something, and you think it s not a great idea.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s not illegal or immoral, it s not gonna hurt anybody, but you think it s kind of a waste of time.
3
SPEAKER_01
Are you still gonna do it?
3
SPEAKER_00
I think so, I would have to, just because it s my boss, you know, I would do it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, right, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so even if you look at the tone of your voice, you re like, yeah, okay, yeah, I have to, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
So I think, oh wow, okay, here I am being persuasive.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now let s say that, now maybe there s a better way for me to do this.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I could go into you as a typical boss and say, Jordan, we need you to do this thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you might say, okay, are you sure, why?
3
SPEAKER_01
Come on, come on, just do it, we gotta do it.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s typically how many bosses would do that.
3
SPEAKER_01
But what I can do to be more effective is this.
3
SPEAKER_01
If I tell you to do something and you resist, this is not true in all cases, but in some cases.
3
SPEAKER_01
If I tell you to do something and you resist,
3
SPEAKER_01
In that resistance is information I can use.
3
SPEAKER_01
Whoa, wait a second.
3
SPEAKER_01
He s resisting.
3
SPEAKER_01
If I continue to dial up my power and force him to comply, he s probably not gonna do it in as great of a way.
3
SPEAKER_01
So what I could do instead is this.
3
SPEAKER_01
I see you resist.
3
SPEAKER_01
I tell you what, we ll talk about this later this afternoon.
3
SPEAKER_01
I come back, and before I go into that conversation, I basically, before, I just think about things a little bit differently.
3
SPEAKER_01
I say, you know what?
3
SPEAKER_01
Jordan s really good.
3
SPEAKER_01
In order for me to accomplish my objectives as a boss, I need him not to go about this in this half-assed way, but I need him to really be all in on this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I really need him to want to do this.
3
SPEAKER_01
He really needs to do a good job on this because that s important to me.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know what, at some level actually, Jordan s really good and maybe he needs us in this very tight labor market a lot less than we need him.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so what I m doing there is I m kind of, think about the power dial.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m just clicking it two clicks to the left.
3
SPEAKER_01
Even though I m nominally powerful, I have a higher position on the org chart, you report to me, I make more money, I can fire you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe in this particular situation, if I reassess it, I m less powerful than I think.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so if I dial down my feelings of power in that moment, okay, I m not giving back my salary, I m not resigning, I m not saying, hey, you and I are gonna be equals, side by side forever.
3
SPEAKER_01
All I m doing in that moment is saying, recalibrating my own, in an accurate way, my own notions of how powerful I am.
3
SPEAKER_01
I can become more, remember, inverse relationship.
3
SPEAKER_01
I dial down my power.
3
SPEAKER_01
In general, I increase the sharpness of my perspective taking.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I can say, hmm, why is he resisting?
3
SPEAKER_01
I can maybe ask you some questions about that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe there s an obstacle in the way, and I m the boss, I can kick that obstacle out of the way.
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe if I really break a sweat, I can say, hmm, what s in it for Jordan to do this thing differently or do this thing in a different way?
3
SPEAKER_01
And so it s small things like that, small kinds of recalibrations based on this and some really good evidence of this in social science can help us be a little bit more effective in those kinds of encounters.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, this seems like a really tricky task because once you re at boss level, it s not that pleasant to go back and think, oh, I ve got to take into account what everybody else, what their motivations are.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m in charge here.
3
SPEAKER_00
Why do I need to do that?
3
SPEAKER_00
It seems like it s frustrating.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s frustrating.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, but it s also the reality.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you see this with CEOs, CEOs of publicly held companies.
3
SPEAKER_01
These are figures who we think can catch like bolts of lightning in their hand.
3
SPEAKER_01
And even they will talk about how difficult it is to get people to do stuff, to get buy-in, to get people to move beyond compliance.
3
SPEAKER_01
People will comply, that s the thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you have a power differential, you will get compliance from people because of that power differential.
3
SPEAKER_01
But in business, in any realm of life, if you re a leader, if you re a boss, do you want compliant workers or do you want engaged people working for you?
3
SPEAKER_01
And the way you get engagement is not through coercion and control, it s through these other kinds of mechanisms.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m not promoted, I don t need to do that anymore, but that s part of leading.
4
SPEAKER_01
I would argue, I don t have data to support this, but you make an interesting point, I would argue that my hunch is that as one rises in the organization, the percentage of work that involves persuasion and selling increases.
4
SPEAKER_01
that as you move from, say, an individual contributor probably doing something technical, and as you rise in the ranks, the portion of your time and brain power spent on sales and persuasion will rise with it.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, if you think about a public company CEO, what does he or she actually do all day?
4
SPEAKER_01
Good question.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, right, I mean, they re not like, oh, writing code all day.
4
SPEAKER_01
What are they doing?
4
SPEAKER_01
They basically have, you look at somebody like Jeff Immelt at GE.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, GE is essentially like a nation state, right, in its size and in its breadth.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s essentially a head of state.
4
SPEAKER_01
He has, in some ways, a diplomatic role.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, diplomats persuade all the time.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, he s going to talk to customers, he s going to talk to employees, he s going to talk to his board.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, his job, the job of a,
4
SPEAKER_01
public company CEO has gotta be 90% persuasion.
4
SPEAKER_00
Sure, essentially internal sales, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Selling down the chain.
4
SPEAKER_01
Multidirectional, because you re going in front of customers to persuade them.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re going in front of investors to try to persuade them.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re going in front of your board to try to persuade them.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re going in front of your employees to try to persuade them.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re going in front of your senior management team to try to persuade them.
4
SPEAKER_01
A CEO job isn t like me, it s like, oh, I gotta come to my office and write for three hours by myself.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it s all persuasion all the time.
4
SPEAKER_00
One of the other elements that plugs into this skill set, into the ability to chameleon, is something you call social cartography, which I love that term.
4
SPEAKER_00
We use it also here at AOC, and I think it s largely the same thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
Can you tell us what you mean by that and how it works?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s a way to attune oneself to groups.
4
SPEAKER_01
And this is, I like writing about work and studying work because it s sort of like being an anthropologist in a way.
4
SPEAKER_01
And this is sort of anthropology for the workplace.
4
SPEAKER_01
You want to know, like, who s making decisions?
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, who do people care about?
4
SPEAKER_01
Who do people respect?
4
SPEAKER_01
Let s say you go into a meeting, okay, and you re maybe an outsider, or you could be in the company as well, or you re new to the company, whatever.
4
SPEAKER_01
And what you can do is you basically put everybody s, just do it kind of quietly, put everybody s initials kind of in a little map of where they re sitting.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then think about how often people talk and who do they talk to.
4
SPEAKER_01
So every time somebody talks, maybe draw a line.
4
SPEAKER_01
And if they talk to a particular person, draw a line with an arrow to that person.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then what you ll see if you do this in the course of a meeting is that you ll have this kind of, what seems to be this jumble of lines.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you ll see who s talking a lot, who s not talking a lot, but also important, you ll see who are they talking to.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that can give you a very quick and dirty map of the power dynamics of a particular individual.
4
SPEAKER_01
And when you get into B2B sales, one of the keys is always who s the decision maker.
4
SPEAKER_01
And this is a really sort of a makeshift way to figure out who has influence in this organization, who has influence within this social group, and who might be the decision maker.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, this is interesting.
4
SPEAKER_00
So, to be clear here, you re talking about keeping track of who people are talking to because that person, not the person who s talking the most, but the person who s being talked to the most, has the most influence in that situation.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, you want to see who s talking the most because that can give you some clues, okay?
4
SPEAKER_01
But you want to compare it to who s being talked to.
4
SPEAKER_01
So if you have somebody who is doing a lot of talking, but no one is talking to him, that s probably someone with very little influence.
4
SPEAKER_01
Not always, but that s someone with very little influence.
4
SPEAKER_01
So what you want to do is you just want to get a map when we re in a meeting.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s sort of like playing a sport.
4
SPEAKER_01
Let s say you re playing basketball, and in the moment, in the heat of the moment, you re sort of aware of what s going on, but you re not fully aware of what s going on until you end up watching the tape later on.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so this is a way of essentially the poor man s version of a videotape, sort of recording what went on in that meeting, forgetting about the content of it, looking at the social dynamics.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s modeled after something that you see in sort of information sciences called social network theory, where you can actually do this in a very, very sophisticated way with, say, email.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so you can take a trove of email from an organization
4
SPEAKER_01
And look at the email patterns who s sending email where are they going how s it being forwarded and where you often find in social network analysis is there certain people inside of organizations who are kind of no.
4
SPEAKER_01
who are really important in terms of getting information out, getting information disseminated, who become in some ways the go-to people inside of organizations.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that kind of map, kind of cartographic view of things can reveal who s influential.
4
SPEAKER_01
And one of the things that comes out in social network theory often is that when you map these kinds of social relationships, who s going to who for advice, who s going to who for information,
4
SPEAKER_01
the people who are the nodes, who everybody is going through, are often not the top people in the organization.
4
SPEAKER_01
They are people who end up playing essential roles, but they don t have necessarily the formal title that signifies that they re an essential role.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s interesting.
4
SPEAKER_00
I love the fact that people are doing this with email.
4
SPEAKER_00
It makes perfect sense.
4
SPEAKER_00
The things that we teach in our live program involve, of course, doing this in live social situations in person, but it makes sense that you can do that with actual hard data.
4
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, that s exactly right.
4
SPEAKER_01
So basically, this technique of social cartography, which is similar to, I guess, what you guys do, is sort of kind of a lightweight, quick and dirty version of actually what ends up being a very sophisticated research technique.
4
SPEAKER_00
Thanks for listening and supporting the Art of Charm.
4
SPEAKER_00
For a list of all the amazing sponsors and discount codes, visit theartofcharm.com slash advertisers.
4
SPEAKER_00
Now, back to the show.
4
SPEAKER_00
One thing I noticed that I thought was especially relieving, I think, for a lot of people, myself included, is that extroverts are not necessarily better at sales.
4
SPEAKER_00
Extroverts, because I think a lot of folks think, well, look, I m too introverted to be a salesperson, or I m not one of those gregarious, outgoing people, so this is gonna be harder for me.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m not naturally talented at it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you debunked this.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, well, I mean, I debunked it because there s research out there, research done by a guy named Adam Grant, who looked at a really lovely piece of research where he looked at a very large sales force, measured the introversion-extroversion levels of the sales force.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, they re well-established instruments for measuring introversion-extroversion.
4
SPEAKER_01
So he measured the introversion-extroversion levels of this very large sales force, and they went out and sold, they were selling software, B2Bs, they went out and sold software for a certain amount of time.
4
SPEAKER_01
and saw how much each person sold, and it turned out that there s a great myth about strong extroverts.
4
SPEAKER_01
We think that big extroverts are great salespeople.
4
SPEAKER_01
That is completely not true.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s no evidence to support that, and Grant s research showed that.
4
SPEAKER_01
So the strong extroverts, not that good.
4
SPEAKER_01
The strong introverts, even a little worse.
4
SPEAKER_01
The people who were really good were the ambiverts, which is a term that a lot of people surprisingly don t know, even though it s been in the academic literature for nearly 100 years.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, we all like to think we re special, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, part of it is, I mean, I think it s Myers-Briggs  fault, because Myers-Briggs has told us that we re either an introvert or an extrovert.
4
SPEAKER_01
When in fact, the way that social scientists measure extroversion and introversion is not the way Myers-Briggs does it, they measure it on a, essentially on a continuum, on a spectrum.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it turns out the people who are the best at selling are people who are ambiverts, that is, they re not fully extroverted, they re not totally introverted, they re kinda in the middle.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, it s sort of like, you know, if you go to that prefix ambi,
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like ambidextrous.
4
SPEAKER_01
They can go left, they can go right.
4
SPEAKER_01
And those people are the best sellers because they know when to push and they know when to shut up.
4
SPEAKER_01
They know when to speak up, they know when to stop talking.
4
SPEAKER_01
They know when to assert, they know when to observe.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so they re out there in this world of sales is this gigantic myth that, as you said,
4
SPEAKER_01
In order to be successful, you have to be strongly extroverted, gregarious, a back slapper, and truly, there is no evidence of that.
4
SPEAKER_01
Actually, strong extroverts are generally terrible salespeople.
4
SPEAKER_01
They talk too much and listen too little.
4
SPEAKER_01
They sometimes be too pushy.
4
SPEAKER_01
They sometimes are so concerned about how they re perceived, they lose track of what the basis of the conversation is about.
4
SPEAKER_01
They often want to be well-liked, which means it s harder for them to say no.
4
SPEAKER_01
So strong extroverts, there s no evidence that they re good at sales.
4
SPEAKER_01
But it doesn t mean that you want strongly introverted people, because they re not very good either.
4
SPEAKER_01
What you want are people in the middle, ambiverts.
4
SPEAKER_01
Somewhat introverted, somewhat extroverted.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the truth is, is that when you take this broader view of introversion and extroversion, the view that science has had for years and years and years and years and years, a few of us are strong introverts, but not very many.
4
SPEAKER_01
A few of us are strong extroverts, but not very many.
4
SPEAKER_01
Most of us are kind of a little of both.
4
SPEAKER_01
Most of us are ambiverts.
4
SPEAKER_00
But what if I m shy?
4
SPEAKER_00
Does that mean I m an introvert and can t do this?
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, on this, shyness and introversion are different things.
4
SPEAKER_01
So you can be an introvert and not be shy, and you can be shy and not be an introvert.
4
SPEAKER_01
If you re a super strong introvert, like if you re a very strong introvert, then you don t want to be in a role where you have to do a lot of selling and persuading.
4
SPEAKER_01
but we just talked about not being able to avoid that.
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so there s a scale that they often will use to measure introversion and extroversion.
4
SPEAKER_01
So think about a zero to seven scale.
4
SPEAKER_01
So let s say that you are a one on a zero to seven scale, where zero is, you know, at the left side of it is
5
SPEAKER_01
is super strong introvert, on the right side is super strong extrovert.
5
SPEAKER_01
If you re like a one, you probably don t wanna be in a position where you have to sell.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re probably not gonna be very good at it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, or have super, super quiet kids, because these traits are somewhat fairly heritable, so you might end up having introverted kids.
5
SPEAKER_01
But the truth is, is that the distribution in the population of introversion and extroversion is very much a bell curve.
5
SPEAKER_01
So if you draw a bell curve over that 1 to 7 scale, you re going to have very, very few people who are super strong introverts.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I m a good example.
5
SPEAKER_01
So on this scale, the zero to seven scale, all right, I tested about a two, I m definitely more introverted than I am extroverted.
5
SPEAKER_01
But here s what I can do, I can go from say, being a two on that seven point scale, to maybe being at best a three.
5
SPEAKER_01
All right, what can I do there?
5
SPEAKER_01
I can look at my extroverted friends and maybe try to do a little bit of what they re doing every once in a while.
5
SPEAKER_01
You can t change yourself fundamentally, but you can go from being, say, a two to a two and a half or two to a three, and that s actually pretty good.
5
SPEAKER_01
Two and a halves and threes are very good at sales because they end up being good listeners.
5
SPEAKER_01
So let s say that you re on the other side of it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Let s say that you re a six.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re not a crazy seven, but you re a six.
5
SPEAKER_01
you actually want to become a little bit more introverted.
5
SPEAKER_01
So what can you do?
5
SPEAKER_01
You can actually start practicing listening a little bit better.
5
SPEAKER_01
You can actually wait till people finish their sentence before you start talking.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re never going to be a 2 like me if you re a 6, but you can end up being, say, a 5.5, and that s very good.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, naturally, according to Myers-Briggs, anyway, I m an introvert, but most people seeing me speak on stage, seeing this show, for example, listening to the show, you wouldn t be able to guess it.
5
SPEAKER_00
But these skills, you just learn them manually.
5
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t matter whether or not you feel rested or ultra-comfortable all the time doing it.
5
SPEAKER_00
You just get used to it.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s maybe half of it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m loathe to assign a percentage, but a lot of it is habits and skills, public speaking skills, et cetera, that can be learned.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
But also speaking in public has basically nothing to do with introversion, extroversion.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s good to know.
5
SPEAKER_00
Let s separate that.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_01
Susan Cain wrote about this in her book, Quiet.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, again, so all these things that we think involve introversion and extroversion that have nothing to do with what we really think it is.
5
SPEAKER_01
So, I mean, you mentioned shyness before.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m actually more introverted than I am extroverted.
5
SPEAKER_01
All right.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I m not shy.
5
SPEAKER_01
So people look at me, perhaps, if anybody looks at me, and say, well, this guy s not shy, this guy talks a lot, so he can t be introverted, but I m actually quite introverted.
5
SPEAKER_01
What are the markers of that degree of introversion?
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, number one is that I m completely content and happy being by myself.
5
SPEAKER_01
Number two is that and it s a really important measure of introversion the way the social psychologists measure It is the degree of stimuli that I can take so I can t multitask I will often wear earplugs to drown out noise Whereas someone who s more extroverted will often, you know likes being around ambient noise likes to have a lot of people around him or her So when we really look at this though, I mean, I think the really big takeaway here Jordan is that I?
5
SPEAKER_01
this introversion, extroversion thing that we always talk about.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not binary, all right?
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not black and white, it s gray.
5
SPEAKER_01
And the truth of the matter is that most of us are a little bit of both.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that s a good thing, because the people who are a little bit of both are more effective at sales and persuasion.
5
SPEAKER_00
So do you think, and do we have any data on whether or not it s easier for an extrovert to dial it back versus an introvert to take social risk and move outside their comfort zone?
5
SPEAKER_00
Great question, I don t know.
5
SPEAKER_00
The fact of the matter is you can learn the skills.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, the one thing that I want to emphasize though is that these are not perfectly 100% fixed traits.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not like height, you know, so that, you know, height is a very fixed trait.
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay, I could hang upside down from my knees and I m probably not going to get much taller.
5
SPEAKER_01
But these traits are, you know,
5
SPEAKER_01
They re heritable in part.
5
SPEAKER_01
Heritability explains, I can t remember what proportion of it, but a significant and decent portion of the variance from one individual to another.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so you can t take someone like me, go back to our seven point scale, okay, where one is really introverted and seven is really extroverted.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m a two, 2.3, whatever.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t care what you do to me, what kind of counter-programming, what kind of training you give to me.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m never gonna be a six.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s just not who I am.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that six is never going to be a two.
5
SPEAKER_01
But you can nudge people a little bit by moving them, as you say, a little bit outside of their comfort zone.
5
SPEAKER_01
As someone who s fairly introverted on airplanes, I often wear either earplugs or headphones all the time, partly because of the, you know, to preserve what s left of my hearing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Another one is just so people don t talk to me.
5
SPEAKER_01
But you look at extroverts, extroverts do something that is really peculiar for those of us who are on the introverted side.
5
SPEAKER_01
They will sit down next to a complete stranger and start talking to them.
5
SPEAKER_01
I would honestly never do that.
5
SPEAKER_01
Really?
5
SPEAKER_01
Ever.
5
SPEAKER_01
I find that
5
SPEAKER_01
peculiar behavior.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but that s what extroverts do.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you know what, it s not a bad idea, sometimes.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so every once in a while, I will push myself out of my comfort zone to talk to the person next to me one time out of 10.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you know what, it s actually good for me to do that every once in a while.
5
SPEAKER_00
Dan, you gotta come to boot camp, man, what can I say?
5
SPEAKER_00
Honestly, though, it breeds opportunity like crazy, and I m sure you ve found that.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s just that you balance that with a level of comfort in doing so, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
I would imagine some beneficial relationships have come out of talking to strangers, but.
5
SPEAKER_01
The other thing, though, is I m kind of a hyper-rational person, so I always look at it in terms of opportunity costs.
5
SPEAKER_01
So maybe there s a benefit that comes out of it, but if I spend an hour talking to this person sitting next to me, that s an hour I m not spending writing, it s an hour I m not spending
5
SPEAKER_01
answering email, it s an hour I m not spending more likely watching baseball highlights.
5
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
5
SPEAKER_00
Wait, wherever the value lies, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
Wherever the value lies, I got you.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
One of the interesting parts of the book that I d highlighted as well is that self-talk that is positive is good, but interrogative self-talk is better.
5
SPEAKER_00
And we obviously spend a lot of time talking about self-talk because it s a hot topic.
5
SPEAKER_00
Most of us would not have any friends if we spoke to our friends the way that we speak to ourselves when we talk.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s true, that s true.
5
SPEAKER_00
So we re always trying to hone that, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
But tell us what the difference is between just positive self-talk and interrogative self-talk, which is superior.
5
SPEAKER_01
In certain circumstances, it can be better, and you got it exactly right.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is not a case, evidence doesn t say, oh, positive self-talk is worthless.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s actually better than doing nothing, there s no question about it.
5
SPEAKER_01
So if I m about to do an important encounter, and I say to myself, Dan, you got this, you can do it, that s better than going in neutral, there s no question about it.
5
SPEAKER_01
But interrogative self-talk is something that s a little bit different, where instead of saying to yourself, you know, you can do this, you got this, you turn it into a question, you ask yourself, can you do this, and if so, how?
5
SPEAKER_01
And the reason it s effective is that questions operate differently.
5
SPEAKER_01
Questions, by their very nature, elicit an active response.
5
SPEAKER_01
So if I ask a question,
5
SPEAKER_01
to someone else or even to myself, I kind of have to respond.
5
SPEAKER_01
So if I go in, say I m going to pitch an idea for something and I say to myself before the meeting, Dan, you got this, you re awesome, you can do this.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, I feel pretty good about that.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, I like telling myself I m awesome.
5
SPEAKER_01
I love hearing from myself that I m awesome.
5
SPEAKER_01
But if I go in there and say, Dan, can you do this?
5
SPEAKER_01
I have to answer myself.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I say, yeah, I can do this.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m prepared in this way.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I can do this.
5
SPEAKER_01
I gotta make these three points, make sure I get them in.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I can do this.
5
SPEAKER_01
Last time I did something like this, I didn t listen well enough, so I gotta make sure that I listen.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I can do this.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes I talk too fast, so I gotta maybe put a break on my rate of talking.
5
SPEAKER_01
And what am I doing in that case?
5
SPEAKER_01
I m preparing, I m rehearsing.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that ends up being, in many cases, more effective than
5
SPEAKER_01
the kind of, this more sort of superficial muscularity of pumping yourself up.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it forces us to examine our motivations and our methods, right, because we re actually making our brain answer these questions.
5
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, and the motivations are actually a pretty important part of that, because a lot of this research shows that when interrogative self-talk can surface, people s intrinsic, autonomous motivations for doing something.
5
SPEAKER_00
Can you give us an example of what this might look like in action?
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you don t have to use something you re really using with yourself, but I think it would help if we had an example for the framework.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sure, so let s say I m gonna go in and pitch an idea for a new book, and let s say, I mean, I love my publisher, but let s say I were to take it around to different publishers, an idea for whatever, you know, a book in a few years.
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so I m pitching an idea for a book.
5
SPEAKER_01
I can go in there and I can say, before I go into this meeting, I m sitting on the lobby, I can say to myself, Dan, you got this, you re awesome, you re an animal, you re gonna tear it up, let s go.
5
SPEAKER_01
Seriously, that s often better than doing nothing.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s not a bad idea.
5
SPEAKER_01
I just wanna make that really clear.
5
SPEAKER_01
But what if I did this?
5
SPEAKER_01
What if I said, Dan, can you do this?
5
SPEAKER_01
And if so, how?
5
SPEAKER_01
I have to answer the question!
5
SPEAKER_01
So I can say, Dan, can you do this?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I can do this.
5
SPEAKER_01
I ve written books before.
5
SPEAKER_01
I know how this game works.
5
SPEAKER_01
I can picture what the room looks like.
5
SPEAKER_01
Can you do this?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I can do this.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know what?
5
SPEAKER_01
This is a really good idea, but it s a little complicated.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I got to make sure I just distill it to these two key points and just keep coming back to these two key points.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Can you do this?
5
SPEAKER_01
You know what?
5
SPEAKER_01
Other times I ve pitched books before, there s one person over there.
5
SPEAKER_01
Jane, Jane has hated every idea that s come out of my mouth in all years in publishing.
5
SPEAKER_01
She s just a complete naysayer.
5
SPEAKER_01
But in my back pocket, I have something that I can think I can move Jane.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, can you do this?
5
SPEAKER_01
You know what?
5
SPEAKER_01
I haven t done this for a while.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I know that sometimes when I do this, I end up basically sort of talking too much and being a little too crazed.
6
SPEAKER_00
So what I want to do here is I want to make sure that I really listen, really make sure that I stop and listen and maybe even wait for the idea to fully settle in before I immediately jump in, try not to interrupt people.
6
SPEAKER_00
So in this case, what I m doing is I m preparing, I m rehearsing.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s like you think about somebody, you think about athletes.
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there s evidence from athletes that great athletes
6
SPEAKER_00
don t do this kind of pumping up self-talk, or they do some of it, but they actually do this more kind of instructive self-talk before a big encounter, because they don t need to pump themselves up, they need to practice and rehearse.
6
SPEAKER_01
Interesting, so the higher level we are, the more likely we are to use this by training or maybe by chance.
6
SPEAKER_00
What often separates experts from non-experts is the degree and depth of their practice and preparation, and self-talk is part of that.
6
SPEAKER_01
Speaking of positive self-talk, there s also something to be said for positive emotions, expanding our creativity and enhancing our effectiveness.
6
SPEAKER_01
You also mentioned the concept of explanatory styles.
6
SPEAKER_01
Can we dissect this?
6
SPEAKER_01
I think this is a useful tool as well.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so this has to do with, if you re in sales, you re gonna get rejected, there s no question about it.
6
SPEAKER_00
So one of the qualities that I talk about is a quality called buoyancy, which I got the concept from a guy who was in sales who said, every day I face an ocean of rejection.
6
SPEAKER_00
Okay, that s what sales is like.
6
SPEAKER_00
You re facing an ocean of rejection.
6
SPEAKER_00
So buoyancy is how do you stay afloat in that ocean of rejection?
6
SPEAKER_00
And one of the things that s important is how you respond to failure, how you respond to rejection.
6
SPEAKER_00
And Martin Seligman at Penn has some very longstanding research showing that one of the best predictors of sales success is how one explains failure.
6
SPEAKER_00
And what he talks about are the three P s, personal, pervasive, and permanent.
6
SPEAKER_00
Personal, pervasive, and permanent.
6
SPEAKER_00
And the goal is to say, we hate being rejected so much.
6
SPEAKER_00
We often take it very personally.
6
SPEAKER_00
So we will say, oh, it s all my fault.
6
SPEAKER_00
It always happens.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it s going to ruin everything.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so what this explanatory style does in the face of failure is in an accurate, substantive way, rebut some of those
6
SPEAKER_00
negative explanation.
6
SPEAKER_00
Is it really all your fault?
6
SPEAKER_00
Most failures are not entirely your fault.
6
SPEAKER_00
Does it always happen?
6
SPEAKER_00
In most cases, you know, it doesn t always happen.
6
SPEAKER_00
Is it permanent?
6
SPEAKER_00
Is it gonna ruin everything?
6
SPEAKER_00
Most things don t ruin everything.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so an explanatory style that looks for ways to make it in an accurate way, to make it less personal, less pervasive, and less permanent, offers a very important muscle building skill for dealing with rejection.
6
SPEAKER_01
How can we start to change our paradigm if we find that we re pessimistic?
6
SPEAKER_01
Can we track positivity over time?
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, how do we go, all right, I m that guy.
6
SPEAKER_01
Let s start a process to changing that.
6
SPEAKER_00
I actually think that you just practice.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so I think you ask yourself this.
6
SPEAKER_00
You catch yourself in a entirely negative, brow-beating explanation, and you challenge yourself.
6
SPEAKER_00
You say, is it entirely personal?
6
SPEAKER_00
Is it entirely pervasive, and is it permanent?
6
SPEAKER_00
And at some level, talk to yourself the way you might talk to a friend coming to you with this.
6
SPEAKER_01
So what if we find ourselves maybe not only being pessimistic, but catastrophizing regularly, really taking it to the extreme?
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you must see high performers that you train dealing with that all the time.
6
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes it works to get us to the top, but then it drives us slowly crazy.
6
SPEAKER_00
I think there s a balance.
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think one needs the negative critique in order to improve, but there s a way that things go from negative to debilitating.
6
SPEAKER_00
The way I look at it, and I use this technique myself, you know, the personal, pervasive, and permanent,
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, the way I look at it is like, what would I tell a friend who was coming to me with this?
6
SPEAKER_00
I wouldn t tell a friend, a good friend, oh, it s all right, everything s great, it s not a problem, da-da-da-da.
6
SPEAKER_00
I wouldn t tell them that.
6
SPEAKER_00
I would tell the friend, I would try to be as helpful and constructive as I can with the friend.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so the friend was coming to me, beating him or herself up, saying, oh, it s all my fault.
6
SPEAKER_00
I would say, well, what happened?
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, that doesn t sound like it s entirely your fault.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s partly your fault, but it s not entirely your fault.
6
SPEAKER_00
You say it always happens.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, remember two weeks ago, something actually good happened, so it doesn t always happen.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s gonna ruin everything.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, it s not, because most things aren t permanent in that way.
6
SPEAKER_00
So you basically talk to yourself the way you might talk to a good friend.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so basically you can walk other people or yourself through that structure.
6
SPEAKER_01
The answers will probably alleviate the concern, unless of course you re unable to even be realistic about that stuff.
6
SPEAKER_01
But maybe divorcing yourself emotionally from this stuff and doing this exercise after you ve had your requisite panic attack or whatever kind of thing, before you take action in the other direction that might be permanent, you can walk yourself through the three Ps and find out whether or not
6
SPEAKER_01
you re doing the right thing and you re not just stressing out over nothing.
6
SPEAKER_01
Because I made this change myself, which is why I m so curious.
6
SPEAKER_01
And it took a long time to develop the habits, but once I was able to do that, it was a huge relief, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
And even now, Jen, my fiance, sometimes has to be like, do you think this will even matter next week?
6
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, well, okay, no.
6
SPEAKER_01
Or in a year, no.
6
SPEAKER_01
Some of those P s can really come in handy.
6
SPEAKER_00
There s actually some other science behind that particular thing.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s something that is called a focusing illusion.
6
SPEAKER_00
Basically, the focusing illusion is a cognitive bias that we think that whatever we re thinking about right now is actually less important than it is the moment we re thinking about it.
6
SPEAKER_00
So we tend to think whatever we re thinking about now is extraordinarily important, when in the grand scheme of things, it s really not.
6
SPEAKER_01
Fantastic stuff from Daniel, of course, that s what we expected.
6
SPEAKER_01
And you know, it is interesting, the sales skill set, part of your life, whether you like it or not, attunement, irritation, agitation, and it s really interesting to me how both introverts and extroverts can sort of go towards that middle ground, that ambivert ground, in order to really reap the benefits of these skill sets in both directions.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I think a lot of us, we do suffer from these stereotypes that
6
SPEAKER_01
extroverted people are the only people that can do this, or that they even have some sort of advantage, but it looks like, really, we re on equal footing.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s just a matter of how we use our skills to improve and leverage our strengths to do the same.
6
SPEAKER_01
If you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Dan on Twitter.
6
SPEAKER_01
We ll have that linked in the show notes, as well as other resources mentioned on the show, and, of course, the book, To Sell is Human, among his other works.
6
SPEAKER_01
You can tap the album art, the show art with that little cartoony picture of me and AJ,
6
SPEAKER_01
You can tap that right on your phone screen.
6
SPEAKER_01
We ll show you the cheat sheet for this episode.
6
SPEAKER_01
Those show notes will be right on your phone.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m also on Twitter, at The Art of Charm.
6
SPEAKER_01
Our live program details are at theartofcharm.com as well.
6
SPEAKER_01
And remember, we sell out a few months in advance, so if you re thinking about it, you re curious about it, get in touch with us.
6
SPEAKER_01
We ll get you the info you need to plan ahead.
6
SPEAKER_01
And of course, our social capital challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge, or here in the USA, you can text
6
SPEAKER_01
to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s about improving your networking skills, your connection skills, and inspiring those around you to develop connections with you and relationships with you.
6
SPEAKER_01
We ll also send you our fundamentals toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ve also got videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward.
6
SPEAKER_01
It ll make you a better connector and a better networker, especially it ll make you a better thinker.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed in the US to 33444.
6
SPEAKER_01
For the full show notes for this and all previous episodes, head over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
6
SPEAKER_01
This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFillippo.
6
SPEAKER_01
Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
6
SPEAKER_01
Show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
6
SPEAKER_01
Go ahead, tell your friends.
6
SPEAKER_01
The greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, of course, either in person or shared on the web.
6
SPEAKER_01
So stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
6
SPEAKER_02
Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
6
SPEAKER_02
Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.