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Welcome to the Sell or Die podcast.
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I m your host, Jeffrey Gittler.
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Well, in this podcast, we re going to help you attract more qualified, unbelievable, ready to buy clients.
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And the one thing you re hoping for, blows more deals.
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It s time to sell or die.
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Dyer Arts, we have a fellow salesperson on today that I think will surprise you because he basically came back from cripples to build a sales career.
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And in spite of his ability to fish, he s decided to fish for customers rather than for fish fish.
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Please welcome the great Kip Thino.
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Thanks, Jeffrey.
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That s quite an opening.
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Lazarus back from the dead.
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Tell us about your injury.
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Yeah.
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Well, I started out in Minnesota, played hockey there, went to a military academy called Culver, played in the ECAC and was kind of a jerk as a hockey player, Jeffrey.
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I didn t learn until I was later in life to be a little more patient.
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And I went into the boards the wrong way, trying to kill somebody that had cheap shot at one of my friends on the team.
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I slipped three discs at the same time and herniated two.
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So it was one of those injuries that takes your nerve out, takes your leg out.
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And so what was your recovery time?
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Well, like every sports idiot, I tried to play 40 more games and the doctor said, well, we re going to gut you like a fish to keep using the fish analogies or you can hang them up.
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So I hung them up and it was about six months later and came out to West to try to get a master s degree because I wanted to teach English and coach hockey.
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And that never happened because I got in the sales.
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Wow.
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So, everything else all right?
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The teeth, the shoulder, the knees, the ribs.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I understand.
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Hockey is a game where I always liken it to Clarkie scoring a goal in overtime and that classic picture of him with no front teeth.
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Yeah.
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I think that s probably the best.
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So, you have this book.
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Hold up your book.
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Sure.
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Absolutely.
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Well, losing teeth is a rite of passage, by the way, Jeffrey.
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For those people who are listening, the book is called A Sales Paradigm.
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Correct.
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And Kip is about to explain what the paradigm actually is.
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Thank you.
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Yeah.
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Well, I mean, Jeff, I ll say, I mean, your little red book is selling the sales Bible.
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Look, everybody should read it.
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Don t pander for applause.
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No, I m pandering for you.
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You got to buy it.
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You re correct.
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Yeah.
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I am correct.
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But, you know, that s where the foundations all come from.
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About 2014, I was with a company and my mentor and I were teaching sales theory and sales classes, and we d go through it all.
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Needs-based, spin, challenger selling, consultative selling.
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And there s so many, right?
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There s thousands.
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Come on.
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Those courses are absolute.
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You know, give me a 25-year-old kid, give him the challenger sale and watch how many times he gets thrown out of an office.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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And so we think the same way.
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So we sat down over a couple of beers and we said, listen, this isn t working.
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Sales is no longer an art and a science.
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Nobody teaches it very well.
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You d have to read every book out there and carve out the fat and get to the meat.
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And we started the sales paradigm.
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And then I finished it over about 10 years.
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And what is the essence of the paradigm?
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Well, there s a couple, there s two really different theorems behind it.
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One is that nobody does anything on a need.
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There s only five, right?
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Needs that human beings have.
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So that s incorrect.
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And that stops at the water s edge, right?
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Water, shelter, love and pay your damn taxes.
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Yeah, food, water, shelter, health, yeah.
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Health and oxygen, yeah.
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And a warm blanket and love is actually another one, but supposedly.
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But we just thought that s wrong.
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Needs doesn t work, right?
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So you have to get to an impetus, an internal locus of control where people want to do what they want to do.
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Just because somebody needs something doesn t necessarily mean they re going to do it.
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No.
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You know, men need to go to the doctor every year.
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I d like to have a quarter for every man that does not.
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Well, I certainly don t want to go to the dentist, and you don t need a drink, but you want one and you know exactly which one you want down to the color.
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Go to any Starbucks.
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That s right.
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That s right.
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So that was the first part is how do you create a want?
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How do you get to that through analogies, through being in somebody s frame of reference?
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And then this is going to get a little crazy because I m not a physicist.
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I m not a scientist.
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The old Chevy Chase line, it was my understanding there would be no math, but I was watching a physics show on Einstein and his theories of relativity, which
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was a paradigm shift in physics from Newton s laws of gravity.
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When I started to look at that, I realized that because light is a constant, that s your frame of reference and why everything around that you have to be relative.
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And that s what he figured out.
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So he said, why can t I develop what s called situational relativity in sales, not to get too crazy here on the physics side, and figure out how you get into somebody s frame of reference using his same kind of thought process that he did in physics.
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So those are really the two basis of the book.
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Let me go back and throw something at you.
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To me, the first big sale I made when I was in the imprinted sportswear business in 1974 or 5 was to Revlon.
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I sold them the Charlie T-shirt.
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I called my aunt, whose brother I knew worked for Revlon, and I said, can you give me the phone number of the CEO and tell him I m going to call?
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And he goes, sure.
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So that s another theory of relativity, using a relative to make a sale.
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And I walked out of that office with a sale for $120,000 in 1974, do that math.
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And so I want you to look at, if you re looking at the paradigm shift, there s also, it s not just a theory, but it s also, who do you know that can boost your presence?
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Who do you know that can get you in a door that somebody else can t get you in, or that you can t get in yourself?
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Think about that.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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No, I love it.
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The relative.
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I never thought of that.
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If you have an actual relative, I wouldn t even need to write the book then, Jeffrey.
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I m just, I m just, we re just having a conversation.
120,000.
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That s like 10 million today.
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That s a big sale.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, no.
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And you re right.
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And, and there is, you know, the biggest mistakes that we see.
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One, companies don t teach sales and they don t focus on it.
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And you know that better than anybody.
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They re not good at it.
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They don t teach sales well.
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They check a box.
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Right.
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Yeah, I got my it s like they check a box for a CRM.
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They check a box for sales training.
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They they check a box for for what s known as onboarding.
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And then they re done.
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They look at their sales reports every week and find out why Bob didn t hit his numbers.
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And then three months later, they fire Bob, right?
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Good.
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Blame Bob for not hitting his numbers.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You send them out to the wolves.
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And then what are the biggest mistakes that they make?
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You just said it.
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They don t have champions.
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They don t know the six degrees of separation or how to build relationships, how to build that rapport, like a good bartender would.
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Right.
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And then what do they lean on?
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What they ve been taught?
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I think the New York definition of that is they re fucked up and stupid, but I don t want to be too risque their first time, first date.
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Yeah, or both getting into sales.
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And to begin with, there s two.
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Yeah.
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And then they thought, what do you do?
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You end up just going right to the biggest mistakes, leaning on your features and benefits, going right into data, right into some kind of presentations.
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And you don t know shit about the customer or what they want or how they re making those decisions.
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Maybe you did.
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Maybe let s give the salesperson the benefit of the doubt.
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Let s say they Googled the company and they found that shit about them.
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They still walk in empty because they don t have an idea.
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They only have a pitch.
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Right.
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All right.
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Keep going.
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So how do you get the ideas?
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You read a fucking book on ideas.
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You read a book on ideas.
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How do they make decisions?
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But it s not just, okay, you know who s who.
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We can now stalk everybody on the internet and on LinkedIn.
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You know their favorite team.
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You know where they went to school.
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You know why they went to school.
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You know if they like to fish, right?
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So there s all of that.
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And then just what I love is, and Jeffrey, you ve seen this too, the questions are all horseshit that people ask these days.
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They re all basic, one answer questions.
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They re not profound.
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They re not... What do you do with your data?
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How do you mine data?
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Go away from me.
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You re fired.
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I m not buying from you.
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Let s take it just a little bit deeper.
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Where s the value in the presentation?
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So ideas and value are the two things that are missing probably from 99% of all presentations and the other 1% of the guys that make the sales or women who make the sales.
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Actually, women are better at sales than men, but...
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another story.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I agree.
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I think you make, I think the sale starts and ends with those really good questions to understand what they want, and then put an analogy around it that takes them out of the line of sight to where they re at.
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And people don t do that.
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Analogies are an art.
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I think you got to earn the presentation.
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I don t think the presentation means shit if you don t know the other things.
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You re just wasting somebody s time.
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Okay.
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So let s go to one more thing, paradigm-wise.
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Why do real estate agents go to closings?
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Is this the start of a joke?
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Why do they go to closings?
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Well, with their customers to make sure it s signed.
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Right.
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To get their money.
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Okay.
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So most salespeople count money.
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You leave a sale and you made the sale and you re figuring out your commission in your head before you hit the car or before you hit the subway or before you go to the next sale, wherever it is.
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And I don t think, and this is just me personally, I don t think enough salespeople love what they do.
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And as a result of that, they re only thinking about the money and the customer
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You can smell that, especially at the end of the month when you have that one sale you got to make and you never fucking make it.
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And you telegraph it, you know, can we have this wrapped up by Tuesday?
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And that s the whole deal.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Or I ve got to hit my number.
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Do you mind putting in this bulk order for me?
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Yeah, exactly.
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Can we backdate this?
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So what does that mean?
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Well, it becomes all about you.
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And I ve got, which is blood in the water.
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You said it right.
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And there is a section in the book that talks about, man, if they don t remember your story, if they don t remember something about you or the company, then it s time you come back.
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If you re making the sale just for the money or for that one sale, you have absolutely no respect.
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And if you re selling a commodity, you should just get out of the business.
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I m going to show you something.
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This is a baseball signed by the staff of the hotel at the Burbank Hilton Hotel in Burbank, California.
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I ve had it for 15 years.
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It was their thank you.
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And that instead of a fruit basket, which cost $35, the baseball, which cost eight bucks,
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will sit on my desk forever.
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And there s no, you know, what s going to hang around?
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What s the lead behind?
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What s what s the memory piece besides your piece of shit business card that you re going to leave in order to be able to, you know, have them fondle something that s beyond your proposal?
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If you walked into that hotel today, I bet when you shook hands with some of those folks, they re still around.
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You d remember.
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I guarantee you they are.
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I ll guarantee you they are.
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I was at the Red Flame Diner in New York City on 44th Street, between fourth and between fifth and sixth.
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And right next to it is the Algonquin Hotel where I used to stay all the time.
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I walked next door to the Algonquin, same Bellman, same Bellman.
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They ve been there for like 30 years.
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And we hugged, literally fucking hugged.
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And, you know, you make a friend with somebody, you know, you shoot the breeze with them, you kibitz with them.
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But I m telling you, those things never go away.
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They never go away.
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And that s what to me, that s what the sale is all about.
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The best coaches I ever had, I remember, and some have passed away and cried when they did.
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They still mean the world to me.
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So what s your strategy for closing a sale in sales paradigm?
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Well, one of the things that we do revisit the core fundamentals of sales.
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Right.
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And then, of course, that fourth one is closing.
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We add what s called a reclose to it.
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And it s not magic.
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It s more of, you know, people these days, they don t ask for anything.
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They don t ask for anything.
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The follow up, a upfront contract, which is some kind of agreement at the end.
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Give me a break on that.
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You know what I m saying?
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That s an old one.
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There s no art to that either, but it s also on a reclose is really gaining.
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It s also rude.
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It is.
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It is.
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It is to do that.
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It is.
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So I m not a hard closer.
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I think if you don t ask for something and you haven t earned it and they re not agreeing, everything you ve done has just been wasted.
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There s a reason.
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Right.
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So really the close for us in the book is to have them close themselves, which they should have already done by agreeing with your analogy or confounding an objection.
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And all of that then is a long term process for them to migrate their business to yours.
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And you can sort of modify it.
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I I use.
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Is that fair enough?
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That s where I go to.
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But if you agree with anything, if you agree with what I m talking about, can we move forward?
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Yeah.
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Simple.
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And if they say no, then you they haven t agreed.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, and we go through some actual real world.
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That s the other thing is we take it out of medical and put it into real world situations.
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And I ll never forget, we were in a big sale and it was with a physician and the doctor.
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Doctor says, no, they re all the same.
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Jeffrey, how many times do we hear that in a thousand times?
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Oh, they re all the same.
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Yeah.
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And you could you could go into, you know, jump right into data, jump right into a presentation.
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You re fucked.
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You can t you re not going to go anywhere.
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You could actually go into analogies on that one that they re all the same.
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Okay, you ve used them all, cars, hockey sticks, you couldn t pay me a million dollars to go back to a wooden stick.
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That s all kind of smoke and mirrors.
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It s great to think about those analogies and pivot.
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A lot of people don t.
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But how about this?
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If they re all the same and there s four products on the market, then I should expect 25% of the business.
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Well, all of a sudden, they re not
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all the same, are they?
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Because they re using 90% of the competitor for a reason, and then that reason will come out, right?
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Which would be a price, or a relationship, or a contract.
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But that first apathetic, they re all the same, goes away.
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And that s the point, is to get the actual root cause of why they do what they do.
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OK, I buy it.
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But, you know, obviously the challenge for the salesperson is repetition.
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So they get comfortable enough with it and they feel comfortable when they re in front of the customer and they don t sort of act nervous.
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You know what I mean?
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Yeah.
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So is there anything in your book about how much you have to practice?
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Yeah.
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I mean, the Bobby Knight, who just passed away and I went to IU, said the will to prepare is more important than the will to succeed.
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One of the best coaches ever.
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Right.
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And we talk about that.
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that the top 1% in any sport, the Gretzky s, the Federer s of the world, they don t get there by accident.
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Right.
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They are not Kobe Bryant.
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Jordan worked on a different shot every single summer.
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So he came in with a new arrow in his quiver.
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And they re not thinking about the mechanics of a golf swing.
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And Gretzky s not trying to remember how to stick handle.
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They do it 500 times a day, every single day to be that good.
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Right.
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It s automatic, becomes automatic.
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Actually, it s an involuntary mental trigger because once you don t have to think about it anymore, then you can build another skill.
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Yeah, totally.
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Yeah.
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And if you re thinking about it, it s not going to work.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Yeah.
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There s a section on that, too, on sharpening your your sword with what you re doing.
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And then it becomes a choice.
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Right.
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Those who do it are going to get better.
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They re going to make the money.
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They re going to keep their jobs.
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Those who don t, you know, Victor goes to spoils.
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Okay, so are there any parting words that you have for our diehards?
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We addressed them one at a time.
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A lot of people listen every week, a lot of people download, but I want to make sure that your message is transferred into
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The diehard is sitting there listening right now going, how s this fucker making me make more sales?
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That s what I want to know.
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Yeah.
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Well, first, thanks for having me on and getting the voice out.
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The book is a sales paradigm you can get on Amazon.
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My thing is, listen, read, read them all.
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Find your own rhythm and vocabulary.
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But when you find something that s working and you re practicing it and you re actually thinking through it, what I want folks to remember is all the marketing bullshit in the world, all the data, all the spreadsheets, your mind is your weapon.
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Everything else is your ammunition.
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If you re thinking through the
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equation.
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You can t solve it without the variables and practice.
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Go back and say that again.
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Your mind is your weapon.
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Your mind is your weapon.
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Nice to talk about that in the book.
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Everything else is the hammer.
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I love that.
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I mean, look, there s no silver bullet.
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There s a lot of lead bullets, Jeffrey.
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You know that better than anybody.
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Oh, yeah.
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Well, there is one silver bullet, but it was the Lone Rangers.
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Yeah, that s right.
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And speaking, you know, think about the Lone Ranger for just a second.
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He had no brochure.
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He never said his name.
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He did everything in favor of the people in the community.
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And he had customer service with Tonto.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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But at the end, who was that masked man?
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You don t know who that was.
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And I think he was the greatest sales cowboy of all time.
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Yeah.
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His business card was a silver bullet.
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Come on.
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And why did they remember?
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Why did they remember his horse s name?
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Everybody knows his horse s name.
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Why do they remember his name?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, because a the silver bullet was a metaphor to the horse or vice versa.
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And I can t tell you which one.
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But he had this high silver away.
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Like I have either fortunately or unfortunately collect autographs.
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And I have several of the Lone Ranger and Tonto, which is probably the rarest of television autographs on the planet, because he signed it in with a logo like the T.
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and then the O and then he put the N in the middle of the O and then put another T and then an O and just a just classic, classic signature.
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Wow.
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But he was memorable because he was a good guy.
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He was just a good guy.
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And he was real cut and his voice was like the voice of God.
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Come on.
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He had like an
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unbelievable voice.
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So Diehard, if you re a salesperson and you have not ever watched an episode of the Lone Ranger, the black and white ones, just go on tonight and binge watch it because you ll see evidence of classic salesmanship.
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Yeah.
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Well, and another I ll leave you with this, Jeffrey, too, from from folks out there listening.
SPEAKER_00
That is such a great analogy.
SPEAKER_00
And that s why we remember silver.
SPEAKER_00
But here s the other thing.
SPEAKER_00
Do what your mom said.
SPEAKER_00
Right for right s sake.
SPEAKER_00
Don t compromise on your ethics, no matter for the money or the title or a job.
SPEAKER_00
I don t care what the company s asking you to do.
SPEAKER_00
Ask the tough questions and have the moral high ground your whole career and good things are going to happen to you.
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
SPEAKER_02
That s great.
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
SPEAKER_02
Diehard, take that to the bank.
SPEAKER_02
Kip, thank you so much for being here today.
SPEAKER_02
Totally appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02
Diehard, go out there and make a sale, even if your ass falls off.
SPEAKER_02
I m Jeffrey Unimer.
SPEAKER_02
Cheers.
SPEAKER_02
Thanks for listening to the show.
SPEAKER_01
Don t forget to like, share.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, share with both your friends.
SPEAKER_01
And subscribe to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01
And remember, we have a free 22 day sales challenge.
SPEAKER_01
Just go to gator.com slash sales challenge to start you on your way.