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You know what I m a victim of?
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Misinformation on the internet.
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Whoa, do I love it.
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Ooh, I love it.
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A headline from a random non-reputable source that says, turmeric will cure your depression.
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Okay, I m clicking.
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Okay, I m ordering turmeric on Amazon.
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I am
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not safe from this side of the internet.
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It s not even like this side of the internet.
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The internet is filled with truth, lies, and everything in between.
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There s always a lot of hearsay going on, okay?
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There s just a whole lot of hearsay on the internet, and none of us are safe from it.
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But today I have a treat for all of us.
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Wendy Zuckerman, a science journalist,
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for over a decade, reporting on everything from octopus intelligence to superbugs to ozempic.
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Think of a topic.
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Wendy has probably read 15 studies about it.
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She started her career as the Australian correspondent for New Scientist magazine and then went to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.
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And in 2015, Wendy started to notice health care trends.
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that were very misinformed.
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And that s when she came up with the concept for her podcast, Science Versus, where she basically takes a topic and lays all the science out on the table.
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Because
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Again, there s just a whole lot of hearsay all the time.
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We re just gonna answer some questions that I have today because she s sort of like a walking scientific journal.
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So sit back, relax, and enjoy Miss Wendy.
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Were you a science kid in school?
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Because I was.
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Oh, I was not.
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Really?
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I mean, like, you know how, like, you backpedal your life story and you re like, I was meant to be a science journalist.
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And there is, like, I did find, because now I live in Melbourne, like, back in my hometown, and I did find a book that I wrote when I was, like, in year two or something that was, like, how Plarke forms.
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And it was like basically what I m doing now.
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It was like, you know, the little bacteria live on your teeth.
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And I was like, look, I was destined to be, but the truth is I wasn t really that interested in science at all.
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I guess I was like more of a drama kid.
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That s so funny.
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So you were not into science, but were you like naturally maybe curious?
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Not even, I mean, I studied it.
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So like finished high school and was like, I get, you know, like, I don t want to get a job yet.
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So I, you know, I got to go to college and then was like,
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Curing cancer is a thing that seems great in the world.
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So that s why I studied biomedical science.
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And then it was really bad.
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I m a nerd in that I want to get good grades, so I was studying really hard, just rote learning stuff, didn t really understand anything.
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In my second year of uni, I had the Bunsen burner.
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I was terrible in lab.
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Had the Bunsen burner on too high and melted some equipment.
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It was so bad that I almost got kicked out of uni because they were like, you must be incompetent.
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They didn t believe I could be, so they were like, you must be a pyromaniac.
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And I managed to convince them.
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I was like, no, I didn t do it on purpose.
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I swear.
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I just did it anyway.
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And then I walked out of that meeting and was like, okay, clearly I m not going to be a scientist.
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But then somewhere along the way, I realized that what I love is science stories.
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There s so much fun stories of discovery to be found in science.
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It s how we know how the world works.
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It s how we know
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why you should go on one diet and not the other, whether jumping into ice water makes you feel better.
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It s how we know anything.
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And so that was fun, to talk to scientists.
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and explain things.
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And I think because I was so bad at it, it helps me explain because it wasn t intuitive when I was starting out.
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People would say complicated science things and I d be like, I don t understand.
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Please say it again.
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See, that is such a perfect niche for you.
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It s like you are curious about all of it.
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You love it.
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your job is then translating it into human.
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It s a totally different skill to translate it to human, and that s kind of what you do.
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That s right, and I think, like, because I had these, like, my parents, who were both academics, funnily enough, so I guess that must have been another thing in the mix, they re always telling me, like, if you don t understand something, just, like, ask more questions.
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Don t ever feel stupid for not understanding something.
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you know, if someone s trying to teach you something and you don t understand it, you just keep asking questions.
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And so I think that really helps.
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It s like if a scientist is just using these complicated words.
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I mean, by now I m a scientist.
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I ve been in the game for so long.
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Yeah.
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I can speak the language.
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Yes.
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But when I was starting out, there was just a lot of, okay, so what was that?
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What do you mean?
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Yes.
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Any analogies you can help me out with?
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Yes.
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So it s been fun to like marry the two worlds.
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Yeah.
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Now, your specialty is translating things to human and sort of sorting through all the different sort of scientific misconceptions.
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I think because the scientific language is so complex, it can be misunderstood so easily, which is why your voice is so important, but also so exciting for people because it s like,
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Now I get it.
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Now I get it.
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I understand because it s like there s always so many conflicting ideas.
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And ultimately, you know, I think science is relevant for everybody because it s like we all use it to figure out how to have a better life.
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It s so important.
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But if you Google something, you re going to find 90 different results.
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Yes, there s so much garbage.
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And what s funny is when I started Science Versus, the world of bullshit online was just starting.
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I mean, I guess that s what I was seeing.
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And I was like, oh, I should make a podcast where we re looking at things in the zeitgeist and really examining them and really reading the scientific papers, because we don t want to be regurgitating more of the misinformation.
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We re down there reading the scientific papers, then translating them.
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But when I started Science Versus, I was like, we ve got four seasons in us.
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Once we tackle, yes, climate change exists, yes, vaccines are good for you, and we need to be taking them despite minor risks here and there.
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Once you hit the top, I was like, all right, all right, this show is going to be done.
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But the internet has just kept minting bullshit.
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It s like as if it was just coming for me.
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No, it s never ending.
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It s never ending.
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More and more diets every year.
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There s fasting, there s keto.
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Last season I did seed oils.
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I was like, now we re not allowed to eat seed oil.
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What?
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Where did this come from?
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And I was like, thank you internet.
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No, it s amazing.
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The thing is, is that humans love, I think humans love, and you ve probably noticed this over the years, we like to find a band-aid.
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We want to find a band-aid for things.
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We want to find an explanation.
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And honestly, I m somebody who is somewhat, I d like to say that I m not, but I am...
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somewhat, we all are susceptible to these, you know, big claims.
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Well, we want an answer.
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When something s wrong with our health, when we know we re not functioning in the way that we used to, like whether like our brain s feeling foggy or like tummy s not feeling right, we re like, what could it be?
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What could it be?
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And you know, going to doctors, like I m all about the like healthcare system and go to your doctor, but like they can be assholes and they cannot listen to
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you.
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Totally.
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And so at the same time as we re seeing, you know, this sort of rise of misinformation online, there s also a greater appreciation that like, yeah, you go to your doctor.
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If you don t have a GP that you like, they might just be like, it s all in your head.
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Live with it.
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Is it really that bad?
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Like take some medication that has nasty side effects.
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And so it doesn t surprise me that people are then going online, finding like influences, like people that they
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are giving them other solutions and then running with that.
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So I totally get the situation that we re in, but it just does mean that I think a lot of vulnerable people who are searching for solutions, who don t have the doctor, the medical care that they need, I think they are getting trapped in this world where they re buying supplements they don t need, going on diets they don t need to go on.
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And so that s why it feels good to make the show, to be like, well, look, here s what might be going on.
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Maybe you don t need to be buying this.
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Maybe jumping in ice cold water will be helpful, you know?
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So I get it.
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So I think like, as I ve been making the show, I ve been way more empathetic to all of us who are just, you know, I think maybe when I was starting, I came in from like a real like on high of like, I ll read the science and tell you what the answer is.
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But now I m like, I get it.
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It s really, really hard out there.
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And so we re just like trying to
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put good information out there.
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What do you think is the reason for so much misinformation?
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When I think about it, one reason could be there s a company benefiting from misinformation, possibly.
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That s maybe one source.
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Or a person.
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Or a person.
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Do you think it s more, nowadays, influencers and uneducated individuals, or individuals who lack the credential to be spreading information?
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those sort of people who kind of want to provide an answer to, you know, maybe build a following and so people will sort of trust them and like look to them for answers?
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Or do you think it s more like corporations that are interested in spreading misinformation?
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Or do you think it s a combination?
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Oh, interesting.
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The ones that
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that really piss me off.
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I don t know when we look at the big problem of misinformation online.
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Generally, I think it s individuals.
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Corporations have all, we always know, we know capitalism exists.
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They re there to spread a message of propaganda.
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I feel like people know, people have in their head, if you see a shell ad for like, we re interested in renewables, everyone s head is like,
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Fuck off now.
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Everyone s like, okay, thank you for your contribution to climate change.
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I appreciate it.
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We understand the language.
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We see through maybe a corporation.
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Exactly.
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But with individuals, that s where I see people really getting sucked in.
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And sometimes you have these really, I don t want to name any names, but in the wellness influencers sector, there are some really big names who kind of use, what I see is they use our mistrust of corporations to then twist things on their head.
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So a story that I hear over and over again is like, you can t trust big pharma, you can t even trust science.
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They re all in it for the money.
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Instead, what you need are natural supplements.
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And guess who sells them?
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And you re like, and you re like, they re like, follow the money, man, follow the money.
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Like, you can t trust pharma.
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And it s like, I ll follow the money right to your damn pocket.
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Yeah.
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And it s just this story.
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And I m like, how are people getting sucked into this?
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But yeah, but I know why it s this thing that like, sometimes science calls the guru effect.
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Where you have these guru they have this like which you ve talked about on the show this parasocial relationship Yeah, where they feel like, you know, oh, it s my friend I can trust them and then all of a sudden you re buying these supplements when it s like yes unproven Yeah, you are putting money right into their pocket.
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Exactly.
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I m shitting on science.
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I m like, excuse
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Well, that s the thing that s so annoying about it, I think, too, especially, is the blatant and so obvious hypocrisy.
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It s, like, right there.
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It s like, babe, you re... You know, it s unbelievable, but I also... It s such a perfect business model, despite it being evil.
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It s genius, because it s the perfect manipulation, because it s playing into, like, well, I m a small business, and I m, you know, and I m an individual, and I ve healed my issues through this, you know, turmeric supplement.
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Yeah.
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If you say, like,
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oh, you can cure this, this, and that using this supplement that obviously doesn t work.
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There s no science to show that it works.
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It s potentially very, particularly if you re not saying things like you need to make sure you take traditional, conventional medicines too.
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So that really pisses me off.
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And then the other thing that I see a lot of, because you were sort of mentioning, is it influencers who maybe are uneducated, but actually I see a lot of people who have MD,
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wearing their scrubs out there on TikTok talking bullshit.
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And I m like, that really pisses me off because they re clearly using their healthcare education, like whether it s their RNs or whatever it is, they re using that and they know they re using that to get
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to get people to think, oh, I can trust them.
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They ve got their scrubs on.
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They probably came out from seeing a patient or something.
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Yeah.
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And if you re wearing your scrubs or you re like a doctor, you know, you need to be really careful about your facts.
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And so often I m like, because part of the show is like looking for like, what s the Internet saying about a particular thing?
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And I ll see these like doctors saying stuff and then we fact check it with experts in the field and I m reading the papers and I m like, that s not, that s not real.
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So this is, this is like what we re fighting against.
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I m like, if you are about to go on a show like this with an audience, take some responsibility, get your facts right.
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So let s play devil s advocate then.
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Love it.
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We re all human, right?
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Including the experts, including the people writing the most advanced, the most modern, the most accurate scientific papers.
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Can we really trust anything for sure, in your opinion?
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It s a great question.
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It s a great question.
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Here s my pitch for why I love science and why I think we can trust science.
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So at its best, science is just testing all these theories we have, whatever it is, like will this skincare product reduce wrinkles?
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Will ketamine cure depression?
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You can say that, or even you can have had an amazing experience, or you and your friends can have had amazing experiences, and you can tell people about it.
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But you ll never know, like, oh,
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like, does this actually work or was it, you know, I took ketamine, I felt great for a month or whatever.
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Like, was it something else that happened that night?
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You know, were you actually moving to, like, was it starting to be a good place in your life and then you felt great?
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Like, so the only way you could actually know, was it the ketamine that caused it and like, that caused this benefit?
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Let s stick with our ketamine example.
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Like, is to actually do a study where not only do you take like, let s say a hundred people,
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and give, who have depression, and give some of them ketamine, you also need to give some of them a placebo.
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Because the placebo effect is so powerful.
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So powerful.
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It s so, and like, I know sometimes people hear that and they re like, oh, it s all in your head.
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It s like, but no, it should be something that we can all harness.
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Like, it is wonderful that the placebo effect.
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It s amazing.
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Is amazing.
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Like, that we can cure ourselves with our minds to a certain extent for certain things, you know.
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Yes.
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But it does mean that every clinical trial worth its weight in anything has to have a placebo arm.
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Because if you tell someone, like, hey, I got a great new drug for you.
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You want to try it?
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And all of a sudden, they feel better.
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It s like, who knows if it was the placebo or ketamine.
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So science is the way that we can do that, that we can find that out.
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And then through other kinds of studies that we can actually test the mechanism of how the hell ketamine might be having these effects.
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But having said that, you can t trust a single study.
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And that s what we ve learned.
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And that s, I think, what we keep getting caught up with.
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I don t like saying, like, the media, because I am the media.
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But the media will often present a single study and be, you know,
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sticking with the ketamine example and be like, ketamine now cures depression or whatever, because there was one study that maybe gave people, you know, ketamine and then checked them the next day and was like, oh my god, their depression scores, which has happened.
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There have been studies like this where they get people with serious, nasty depression, you know, maybe having suicidal thoughts, really bad place, give them ketamine and a bunch of them the next day, they re like, they don t even have depression.
1
No.
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And there have been studies like that.
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And then if you report that, you re like, oh my gosh.
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Well, this is the cure.
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This is the cure.
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Right.
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But you have to, and I understand that you cycle yada yada, but just so people understand sort of how science works, then you just got to wait and see what s going to happen with the other studies.
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Right.
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You want to test it in more people with different kinds of depression and ketamine is a perfect example.
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So now we have more data and we can see that it probably helps about 50% of the people who take it and it probably affects on average last a couple of weeks and then many people will go back to normal.
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So you see what I mean?
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So that s where I think people start to think like, can you trust science?
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Because you re like, wait, you just told me ketamine was the cure.
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Now it s not the cure.
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When really it s just like the progression of knowledge.
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And so on Science Versus, and I would just like encourage people as you re looking
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on the internet at studies.
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You re like, is this just one study?
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Is this a body of research?
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Like, how sure can we be that this is going to hold up?
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And it doesn t mean that that first study was crap.
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It just means like, that s what they found once.
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Are they going to find it again?
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Yes.
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Yes.
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See, I think it s also, it s so important for people to remember, we have to trust while also understanding that
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the research never ends.
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It never ends.
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That s right.
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We will never have this perfect book filled with all the answers.
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I mean, maybe in, what, 5,000 years, whatever, if everything lasts that long.
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I don t know.
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It s like, I mean, maybe then, maybe then.
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That s exactly, yeah.
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And I think it goes back to what you were saying about how we want a quick
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solution, and science is a process.
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It s a frustrating, long process, but it s still the best we got, and it s still way better than someone said.
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It s pretty amazing.
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It is actually amazing.
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I feel like a lot of us, we re not grateful enough for the time that we live in.
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This is actually a phenomenal time to be alive where medicine is so advanced.
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Oh my gosh, yeah.
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We re curing shit.
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It s crazy hearing stories about different diseases that we re just
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wiping everyone out, like a hundred years ago.
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And now it s no big deal.
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It s no big deal.
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Or there s a vaccine.
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No one even gets it anymore.
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And we take it for granted, but also, you know, when there are things that go wrong and there are things that like, we think we understand and then we don t, and then maybe some people, I don t know.
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We re all human and we re doing the best that we can.
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And we, I think at the end of the day,
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you know, yeah, there s the man who wants money, and then there s, you know, even the individuals who want money, but I think, ultimately, we all want to be happy and healthy.
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We do.
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Like, I think that that is most of our goals.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yes, yes.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I don t want to be, like, out here being like, you know, science is like, you know, like, come down from heaven, as, you know, God was like, ah!
2
SPEAKER_02
Because there are problems with science, and science does have biases.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I was,
2
SPEAKER_02
I was listening back to our episode on the G-spot that we did, which has a very funny history.
2
SPEAKER_00
It feels kind of dated now.
2
SPEAKER_00
Is anyone talking about the female G-spot?
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think people need to be talking about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let s talk about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I actually don t know anything about the G-spot, which is crazy because I m the type of person who d be like, okay, find it, to a guy, but then I m like, I actually don t know what it is or where it is.
2
SPEAKER_00
I also don t know if anyone would feel good if you found it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I actually don t know.
2
SPEAKER_02
The story of how the G-spot was born is wild.
2
SPEAKER_00
Wait, let s do a brief detour and tell us about the G-spot.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and then I ll come right back to how it fits into science comedies sometimes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_02
There was this nurse, Beverly Whipple, who was doing, who I interviewed, um, still alive today.
2
SPEAKER_02
And, um, she, oh gosh, what was this?
2
SPEAKER_02
Let s, let s put it in the eighties, was doing this study in women who, when they orgasm, they peed.
2
SPEAKER_02
a little and in some cases peed a lot and like needed like towels and this was very upsetting for them.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so she was, yeah, and so she s studying these women who at the time, you know, very taboo, very embarrassed about this.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so she started examining them, which meant this is the time when video is going to be helpful.
2
SPEAKER_02
So she would take their vaginas and like just kind of like insert her finger and then kind of go around like in a clockwise direction and be like, how does this feel?
2
SPEAKER_02
How does this feel?
2
SPEAKER_02
How does this feel?
2
SPEAKER_02
And she kept finding that around the, if you imagine like your vagina is like a clock, like the 11am to 1pm was like women would start smiling and get excited.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love it.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so then she ends up writing a book about it.
2
SPEAKER_02
She goes on the Phil Donahue show and like we found archive from the Phil and it s so funny because it s like so like you know but she s out there talking about like you know the best way to do it is with the woman on top and like missionary she does something like missionary style just doesn t cut it and I m like
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, in the 80s, you know, and you hear Phil Donahue go like, oh, you know what, they can t handle it, they re like, we ve never talked like this before.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s amazing.
2
SPEAKER_02
Once it starts blowing up, maybe before she wrote the book, she did this talk.
2
SPEAKER_02
And people were like, you have to name this thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
And at one point it was going to be called the Whipple Tickle because her name is Beverly Whipple.
2
SPEAKER_02
But then they went for the G spot because G is like Dr. Grafenberg was another doctor who maybe found this spot.
2
SPEAKER_02
Anyway, so it goes on Phil Donahue.
2
SPEAKER_02
It blows up.
2
SPEAKER_02
There s all these articles, you know, G spot, G spot.
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh my God.
2
SPEAKER_02
Can you find it?
2
SPEAKER_02
Let s find it.
2
SPEAKER_02
But in the meantime, like,
2
SPEAKER_02
No one knew, like, what was it?
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, is it nerves?
2
SPEAKER_02
Is it a gland?
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, what s going on there?
2
SPEAKER_02
And it took until the 90s, like 1998, I think it was, when an Australian urologist, Helen O Connell, was on a totally different track.
2
SPEAKER_02
She was reading, this is where we get back to science can be fucked sometimes.
2
SPEAKER_02
She wasn t really aware of all this G-Spot talk at all.
2
SPEAKER_02
She was studying anatomy, she s a uni student, and her anatomy textbook basically didn t have the clitoris in it.
2
SPEAKER_02
No, I asked her like it was a blank spot there and she said basically a blank spot.
2
SPEAKER_02
What?
2
SPEAKER_02
So she s like using this anatomy textbook for four years.
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, it s got a perfectly formed penis in there.
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Without it, of course.
2
SPEAKER_02
There s no doubt.
2
SPEAKER_02
There s like too much information about the penis in it.
2
SPEAKER_02
But nothing on the clitoris, nothing.
2
SPEAKER_02
And she s getting madder and madder and madder about this.
2
SPEAKER_02
And then one day she gets given this book by a group of feminists in America.
2
SPEAKER_02
It was like a friend of hers was like,
2
SPEAKER_02
you want to see this book?
2
SPEAKER_02
And she s like, yeah, I want to see this book.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it had these beautiful diagrams of like, like the vulva and the vagina.
2
SPEAKER_02
And these women had like, tried to look at what their vagina, but they had this line in it that was like, we, unfortunately, we didn t have cadavers.
2
SPEAKER_02
So we couldn t like dissect to see like, what s going on in there.
2
SPEAKER_02
And Helen O Connell s like,
2
SPEAKER_02
I have access to cadavers.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m at a medical school.
2
SPEAKER_02
We got like cadavers coming out of our ass.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everywhere.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
So she starts a study in like the nineties.
2
SPEAKER_02
Whoa.
2
SPEAKER_02
One of the first scientific studies actually dissecting like, where is the clitoris?
2
SPEAKER_02
What s going on?
2
SPEAKER_02
What s going on in there?
2
SPEAKER_02
Because now I think it s fairly well known that like the tip that you see is like the tip of the iceberg, you know.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s this very large, large, you know, I m really, this is like something that s really good about this.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like you guys know, we know this, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
I feel like even, you know, six years ago when we were looking into the episode, people were like, wow, the universe is so big.
2
SPEAKER_02
But now we know.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s like big.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s got like a Burt Reynolds mustache kind of vibe coming down.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s big.
2
SPEAKER_02
But she worked that out in 1998, that paper was published.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it was only then where we could start being like, wait, so what s the G spot to take it all back around?
2
SPEAKER_02
And she was like, I can t see anything in this 11 to 1 position, but what I can see is this huge clitoris.
2
SPEAKER_00
Wow, this thing is big.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
2
SPEAKER_00
No one s talking about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
So wait, is that actually what it is?
2
SPEAKER_00
Is that the clitoris just extends inside?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, for some women.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right, because I feel like some people can t
2
SPEAKER_00
orgasm vaginally?
2
SPEAKER_02
That s right yeah yeah so it s probably so it s so now our understanding of the of like the vagina and that and the that whole region and the clitoris is like that the the clitoris the vaginal wall even the urethra which is like where we pee out of they all sort of interact in this very interesting way that like that they I don t know we use this terrible analogy in the podcast where we were like like puppies dancing
2
SPEAKER_02
I love that!
2
SPEAKER_02
And that is now like the vaginal urethral complex, which is probably what the G-spot was in some of these women.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so there is no spot is bottom line.
2
SPEAKER_02
But like, why I think it reflects like that science can suck sometimes is like, why wasn t the clitoris in that anatomy textbook?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, like, how did that get missed?
2
SPEAKER_02
And the thing is that in the 1900s, you know Grey s Anatomy?
2
SPEAKER_00
Of course.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yes, yes.
2
SPEAKER_02
Grey s Anatomy.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s a textbook.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s an anatomy textbook before it was a TV show.
2
SPEAKER_02
In the 1900s, they had the clitoris.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh.
2
SPEAKER_02
Late 1940s, clitoris gone.
2
SPEAKER_00
Why?
2
SPEAKER_00
Weird.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_02
We just got fucked.
2
SPEAKER_02
Our entire view of female sexuality.
2
SPEAKER_00
Are women s orgasms bigger?
2
SPEAKER_02
Is that true?
2
SPEAKER_02
Have you read into that?
2
SPEAKER_02
We did a whole episode on the orgasm gap.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, this idea, like, if you ask, like, cis men, like, how often do you orgasm when you have sex?
2
SPEAKER_02
95% will say yes.
2
SPEAKER_02
You ask, like, women.
2
SPEAKER_02
Do you want to have a guess?
2
SPEAKER_00
How many?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, let s use my own life.
2
SPEAKER_00
No, it s so mean.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m so sorry to everyone.
2
SPEAKER_00
No, oh god.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to go too low.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was going to say 40.
2
SPEAKER_02
I was going to say 40%.
2
65%.
2
SPEAKER_02
Okay, that s good.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you want to guess.
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh, so that s straight women.
2
SPEAKER_02
Do you want to guess gay women?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, it must be way higher.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I feel like that would be like
2
SPEAKER_02
95.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s 89.
2
89%.
2
SPEAKER_02
Very good.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
So that tells us that this is largely not a biological thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s not like it s that much harder to get us off.
2
SPEAKER_00
No.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is a cultural thing, mostly.
2
SPEAKER_02
Do you think it is harder for women to orgasm?
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, actually?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, so we looked into the science of this.
2
SPEAKER_02
Get into it.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, what is this orgasm?
2
SPEAKER_02
What s causing it?
2
SPEAKER_02
Is the female orgasm such a big mystery?
2
SPEAKER_02
That was our exact question.
2
SPEAKER_02
And there s been these phenomenal studies.
2
SPEAKER_02
I love our sex episodes.
2
SPEAKER_02
They re so much fun.
3
SPEAKER_00
You can really dive deep.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re just talking science, man.
3
SPEAKER_00
Also, no one s talking about it in a day-to-day as much because it is sort of even still sometimes a taboo.
3
SPEAKER_00
A little taboo, yeah, yeah, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s so fun.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love it.
3
SPEAKER_01
For example, they ve gotten people to go into MRIs and orgasm and either masturbating or getting their partners, but MRIs just as fun details.
3
SPEAKER_01
Have you ever had one?
3
SPEAKER_00
An MRI, yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so it s loud.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like...
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes, it s a very weird experience.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s a weird experience.
3
SPEAKER_02
It d be really hard to orgasm in there.
3
SPEAKER_02
So hard?
3
SPEAKER_00
Are you kidding me?
3
SPEAKER_00
And also, do you get any stimulation?
3
SPEAKER_00
You re in there alone with a loud sound.
3
SPEAKER_00
Good luck using your imagination.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_00
And I know they re not playing a video for you.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re really on your own.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s so sad and so hard.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s so hard.
3
SPEAKER_01
And not only that, on an MRI, you know how you have to be really still?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because movement is the killer of an MRI.
3
SPEAKER_01
You need the image to be crystal clear.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s true.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so researchers had to design a helmet, which she called, the researcher, Dr. Nan Wise, she called it the Hannibal Lecter happy helmet.
3
SPEAKER_01
Ew!
3
SPEAKER_01
it ended up like covering the face just so they like wouldn t move so they had to wear this helmet uh-huh then they had to like you know sort themselves out or they had a partner partner do it but because it was so loud the the scientists had to be like relaying information like she described it as like a deranged and like a flight host where she was like she was like
3
SPEAKER_02
Your partner has started orgasming now.
3
SPEAKER_02
Your partner has stopped orgasming now.
3
SPEAKER_01
So through studies like this, researchers have discovered that the orgasm is a big brain event.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s a lot going on in your brain, which is how it feels, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
So it s not that surprising.
3
SPEAKER_01
And from what we can tell, the differences between like the male and female brain under orgasm, very similar, very similar.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s other similarities going on, like when you look at the nerves around the vagina versus the penis.
3
SPEAKER_01
So the biology doesn t seem to be able to explain the huge differences.
3
SPEAKER_01
One researcher did suggest that
3
SPEAKER_01
because the penis is external, there s more to play with, I guess.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you could see, is this a sensitive area?
3
SPEAKER_01
Is this a sensitive area?
3
SPEAKER_01
And you can do that with the vagina, obviously.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just a little more difficult.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is.
3
SPEAKER_01
And she was saying she studies people in the lab, and she s like, sometimes we are poking around the vagina, and we ll be like, is this nice?
3
SPEAKER_01
Is this nice?
3
SPEAKER_01
And they just can t find it on some women.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is kind of like a mess sometimes in there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Even with my own vagina, I m like, it s a mess.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because I m like, it s not- A beautiful mess.
3
SPEAKER_00
A beautiful mess.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m obsessed with it, but I m happy to have it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Literally, she s awesome.
3
SPEAKER_00
I love her.
3
SPEAKER_00
But even sometimes with me, I had to learn, even when it s your own vagina, it s not like you know where your clit is immediately.
3
SPEAKER_00
All the time.
3
SPEAKER_00
You learn that later in life.
3
SPEAKER_00
Whereas if you have a penis, you can see the penis.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s right there.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s no like, oh, wait, where is it?
3
SPEAKER_00
There s no discovery.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes, that s right.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know some women I know have like maybe a smaller clitoris so like you have to like and it might be like under fold so you have to like actually move things around just then see it like yes it it s very interesting but I mean yeah so so so that tells us that like so maybe there s a little bit of biology there yeah but the fact that
3
SPEAKER_01
gay women can orgasm almost 90% of the time tells us that a huge chunk of this orgasm gap is social.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s social.
3
SPEAKER_01
And actually surveys have been done of college kids, college men, and they know where the clitoris is.
3
SPEAKER_01
They re clearly just not
3
SPEAKER_01
finding it.
3
SPEAKER_01
They don t care, you know, like, or some men, some men, like, oh, no, definitely.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And there s, there s surveys that have been done of women that like, we prioritize male orgasm.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s when sex ends.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s really sad that like that, that hasn t changed.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
That hasn t changed.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, it has not.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and that sucks.
3
SPEAKER_01
I remember when I was in high school, I was like, the gender gap on many things.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was like, we re so close to getting that, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Once we get the wages sorted, equality s like, we got it.
3
SPEAKER_01
We got this.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then we re both going to come every time and it s going to be fucking awesome.
3
SPEAKER_01
And now I m like, no.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s still the primacy of the penis.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s still, sex is done when they come.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you can see it in the data that women will say, I prioritize them coming.
3
SPEAKER_01
No, I know.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve done that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because they should be like, okay, now it s your turn.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s how it should work.
3
SPEAKER_00
But it s also like, I think a lot of guys too are scared to ask.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s just a sex thing anyway.
3
SPEAKER_00
it s a very hard conversation to have to be like, you re not doing it.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s not working.
3
SPEAKER_01
It ruins the like, it doesn t need to be that way.
3
SPEAKER_01
It could just be like, let s try it this way.
3
SPEAKER_01
It could be a fun thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
3
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t need to be like you re ragging on them or anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
No.
3
SPEAKER_01
It could just be like, hey, let s try this, let s try that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you mind if I touch myself while we re doing this?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
This could be, yeah, it doesn t need to be negative.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think one day,
3
SPEAKER_00
I think we ll be alive when the stats go up and the girlies are having their orgasms just as much and it s all, maybe we ll be alive for that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wouldn t that be such a treat?
3
SPEAKER_00
That would be great.
3
SPEAKER_00
That would be great.
3
SPEAKER_01
I really thought, you know how there was big dick energy a couple of summers ago?
3
SPEAKER_01
I was like, what about generous lover energy?
3
SPEAKER_00
What about excited clit energy?
3
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_00
What about well-attended-to clitoris energy?
3
SPEAKER_00
Why are we not doing that?
3
SPEAKER_00
You re like, that s what we need.
3
SPEAKER_00
We could go through the celebrities in our lives and be like, Cardi B, well-attended clitoris energy.
3
SPEAKER_00
You can tell.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s been phases of my life, if you scroll through my Instagram, you can tell when my clitoris was not well-attended to.
3
SPEAKER_00
You can see that shit in my eyes.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then all of a sudden, it s like one day, there s a little glisten back.
3
SPEAKER_00
What happened?
3
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like you can see it in the eyes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so we re starting that as a hashtag, you guys.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ll take that and run with it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that s so good.
3
SPEAKER_00
We just unintentionally answered one of my first questions, which was, let s talk about the orgasm, because that s one of the things that you ve dug into.
3
SPEAKER_00
You dug into so many things.
3
SPEAKER_00
We need to dig into like,
3
SPEAKER_00
There s a few things we need to dig into that I know that you re like, you ve done the dirty work, you ve done the research, you ve whatever.
3
SPEAKER_00
And one of them is very relevant to me because I was addicted for many years vaping.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let s have the vaping conversation.
3
SPEAKER_01
How is your journey going, by the way?
3
SPEAKER_00
What happened to me was I made an episode, a podcast episode, being like, I m quitting.
3
SPEAKER_00
I woke up one day and I was like, I m quitting.
3
SPEAKER_00
I quit.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then I went through a rough patch and I was like, there s no fucking way.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because nicotine withdrawals are tough and it was like,
3
SPEAKER_00
I just can t, I need this.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is my pacifier, I need this back.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I started again.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then, a month ago, I quit again.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I ve gone a month.
3
SPEAKER_00
My goal was, okay, I m gonna quit by the time I m like 25.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because you ultimately have to quit when you get pregnant, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s like, I don t want to deal with...
3
SPEAKER_00
pregnancy and having to quit nicotine, which is so emotional.
3
SPEAKER_01
You gotta cut down on your caffeine.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s already a bunch of shit to do, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Too many stimulants that I love will have to exit my life.
3
SPEAKER_00
Alcohol as well.
3
SPEAKER_00
I really can t handle all this quitting at once.
3
SPEAKER_00
To not have a glass of wine on a Friday, wow, that s rough.
3
SPEAKER_00
Anywho, tell me everything about vaping because I ll tell you what my, I always had excuses.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because when you re addicted to something, you always have excuses.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re like, no.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s not even like, there s no tar with the vape.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s no tar.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s nothing combustible.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s nothing burning.
3
SPEAKER_00
I remember somebody told me once, actually, I think it was a guy I dated for a month.
3
SPEAKER_00
He was telling me, because he was super addicted to the vape, too.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he s like, no, no, no.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s totally fine.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like the vegetable glycerin, the base of it,
3
SPEAKER_00
He said something about it being water-soluble, so it won t stick.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like it s vegan, it s okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, he s like, it s actually really organic, so it s like chia seed vibes, so it s totally fine.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like, it s super kale energy, it s super air one coated, they ll start selling it at Air One soon.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s organic bears.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but also, oh my god, wait, this is, I m getting ahead of myself, but I m so excited, because
3
SPEAKER_00
He was basically saying, like, oh, so it s safe.
3
SPEAKER_00
It won t stick to anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
You just exhale it.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s fine.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then also something that a conclusion I came to was, hold on a minute.
3
SPEAKER_00
There are all these vapes that are supposed to help you quit nicotine, and they re supposed to be completely safe.
3
SPEAKER_00
But they re quite literally the exact same ingredients.
3
SPEAKER_00
The only difference is there s no nicotine.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, I get that that then helps you sort of like if your oral fixation is what you re the most sort of drawn to more than even the nicotine itself.
3
SPEAKER_00
See, for me, it was always nicotine as a stimulant.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, I think it helps me.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
But they re marketing the
4
SPEAKER_00
is alternative vapes with no nicotine as being a healthy alternative, and it s like, this is still you inhaling something.
4
SPEAKER_00
So what s the difference there?
4
SPEAKER_00
And there s flavors involved here, and I actually tried one of those once, and I will not say the name, it made my lungs feel very weird.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I did not, like it made me feel like heavy, and I was like, this I don t like, and I immediately stopped, because I was like, I do not like this.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I was like, anyway, so all of this rambling to say,
4
SPEAKER_00
What s going on?
4
SPEAKER_00
What s going on with the vape, okay?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, cause honestly, if somebody were to tell me, it s actually totally fine, I d be like, amazing, I m gonna fucking vape then.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, I would literally, if someone told me right now, okay, it s totally safe, I d be like, peace out, I would literally wait, I would have my babies, so that, you know, cause I, whatever, and then I would then vape for the remainder of my life, so please tell me everything.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, okay, unfortunately I m not gonna tell you that they re totally safe.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I think a lot of the like,
4
SPEAKER_01
confusion out there is because the vast majority of data out there shows that vaping is safer than smoking.
4
SPEAKER_01
But that is because smoking cigarettes is so bad.
4
SPEAKER_01
I feel like
4
SPEAKER_01
We sort of missed out on how bad it was because already by the time we were sort of coming into our own, like a lot, there d been all these like ad campaigns of like how bad it is.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you know, we ve just sort of forgotten.
4
SPEAKER_01
But one academic told me that like cigarette smoking, it s kind of like, you know, it s a bit of a cartoon example, but it s kind of the equivalent of like putting your mouth over like a car.
4
SPEAKER_01
like exhaust fumes and just being like, you know, like the amount of cancers that it caught, I think it s like one in three deaths from cancer in the US can be directly caused by smoking, like directly contributed to smoking.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s crazy how bad, like it s crazy that it s legal, but it s so bad for you.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so to say that something is safer than smoking is
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like saying like, you know, like being, you know, smoking is being like hit by a truck and then like dragged for 10 miles.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, vaping is like being hit by a Jeep, you know, and you re not dragged, but like, so, so that s one thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I think like in the UK, for example, there s this big push to like use e-cigarettes to quit smoking.
4
SPEAKER_01
because that is still considered safer.
4
SPEAKER_01
The vast majority of studies, although I will say there was a study that came out recently that kind of suggests otherwise, but I think going back to our point of you look at the data, that s what it suggests.
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so given that, so if you re currently smoking cigarettes and want a way to quit and think vaping might help you, I think the data suggests that s a good idea.
4
SPEAKER_01
But vaping compared to nothing,
4
SPEAKER_01
compared to air beautiful beautiful yes this is where we re gonna this is where the french is gonna get into trouble yes no i i need this i need to hear this continue yeah so for a long time and i almost feel like it was probably like you know really in the last like
4
SPEAKER_01
10 years or whatever.
4
SPEAKER_01
So first there was just like all this talk, it s safe, it s safe, it s safe.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I feel like that s when a bunch of people started taking it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then the data starts coming out.
4
SPEAKER_01
Even though there were always academics that were like, look, it s probably not great.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like you are still breathing crap into your lungs.
4
SPEAKER_00
Anytime you re inhaling anything that s not clean air, it s probably bad.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_01
For example, we talked to this researcher who had interviewed something like 3,000 kids, late teens, early 20s.
4
SPEAKER_01
And found that if you vaped, you were way more likely to have symptoms like coughing and wheezing.
4
SPEAKER_01
Two thirds of the people in their sample had symptoms like that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the researcher was like, this is not normal.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like a 19 year old wheezing?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
you know, that s not, that s not good.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s a bad vibe.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s a bad vibe.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like that, that s not doing good things to your lungs.
4
SPEAKER_01
And like, and it s sort of, you know, you can deal with coughing.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s not great.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Wheezing, you know, but it s sort of thought that these problems that it s causing to your lungs are like the canary in the coal mine.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like if you keep vaping, you keep, it suggests that something s going on and your lungs are having trouble.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yep.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it kind of, if you keep vaping, keep bringing that stuff in, it doesn t get better.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yep.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then we have data on the flavors, for example.
4
SPEAKER_01
The weird thing with the flavors is that a lot of them have been approved for safety for eating.
4
SPEAKER_01
What s wild is that that s where most of the flavors come from.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like cinnamaldehyde is the chemical they use for cinnamon vapes, which I don t think is a very popular flavor.
4
SPEAKER_00
By the way, horrible flavor.
4
SPEAKER_01
Ew, who s smoking that?
4
SPEAKER_00
Y all are weird for that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, yeah, ew.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I ll tell you, I haven t smoked that one, so we re good.
4
SPEAKER_02
Continue.
4
SPEAKER_01
So that s how they started getting the flavors.
4
SPEAKER_01
They were like, oh, we already know like it gives whatever this chemical gives like a cherry, like to your cherry ripes or whatever.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, what if you just inhaled it?
4
SPEAKER_01
And no one had really done the studies for inhalation.
4
SPEAKER_01
They were just like, it s safe to eat.
4
SPEAKER_01
But we know that like our stomach has acids, like our stomach evolved
4
SPEAKER_01
to eat weird, potentially dangerous shit.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re eating berries and you re like, this wasn t great, but just get it out, you ll be fine.
4
SPEAKER_01
But your lungs weren t designed to have evolved for that sort of industrial-style clean.
4
SPEAKER_01
And we already have examples where stuff that has been safe to eat
4
SPEAKER_01
we know is not good for your lungs.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so the example scientists like to use is diacetyl, which is like a buttery flavor that I don t, it shouldn t be put in vapes because we know it s really harmful, but it s put on popcorn.
4
SPEAKER_01
It gives like the buttery taste of popcorn as far as we know, really safe, like very yummy.
4
SPEAKER_01
But then in a popcorn factory a couple of decades ago,
4
SPEAKER_01
This is how scientists were like desperate to like, do we know anything about its inhalation?
4
SPEAKER_01
So popcorn factory where they re making their diacetyls going into the popcorn, but there was an accident and a bunch of people inhaled a ton of it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it, and a lot of them, their lungs just like fucked up a couple needed like lung transplants as a result.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s like the, and it s called popcorn lung, which maybe you ve heard of.
4
SPEAKER_01
which sort of sounds like, oh, your lungs turning into popcorns, but it s actually from this popcorn factory.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I didn t know that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so that was like the first example where, you know, we know that diacetyl is bad for your lungs.
4
SPEAKER_01
And there have been examples of people who have inhaled a diacetyl in vapes and it hasn t been good for their lungs.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I mean just generally and then the propylene glycol which is the stuff that makes it like fog that makes it like it s like a little fog machine.
4
SPEAKER_01
It is actually the same chemical that s in theater smoke machines.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh god.
4
SPEAKER_00
The amount of years that I inhaled that
4
SPEAKER_00
That is so bad.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, continue, continue.
4
SPEAKER_00
Tell me the truth.
4
SPEAKER_02
Right?
4
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it s like fascinating from like a chemical perspective that you re like, oh, that stage like fog machine.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like, oh my God, I m in like a fucking Halloween haunted house in my lungs.
4
SPEAKER_00
My lungs literally for years looked like a Halloween haunted house.
4
SPEAKER_00
That is exactly.
4
SPEAKER_00
For better or for worse.
4
SPEAKER_00
Let me tell you, I was having fun blowing my O s, but I was really like...
4
SPEAKER_00
But it can t be good.
4
SPEAKER_02
Or like you re out at a club or whatever and they re putting the pot, you know?
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like a rave in my lungs.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s right.
4
SPEAKER_01
And there s evidence that s also not great for your lungs.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they even have studies from theater workers who have had to inhale a ton of this stuff and things like that.
4
SPEAKER_01
So we know all these, they re not good.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re not good.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then there s also some upcoming research into nicotine itself.
4
SPEAKER_01
Because there s been a debate for a long time about whether nicotine is even that bad for you because it s addicting and it s the reason, as you well know, that you want to keep coming back.
4
SPEAKER_01
So in that way it s bad because it s bringing along the flavors.
4
SPEAKER_00
Being addicted to anything s not good.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, yeah, I mean, I guess it s a philosophical debate.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that is.
4
SPEAKER_00
See, it s funny you say that because that was something that I did research on.
4
SPEAKER_00
I always would do research and cherry pick the studies or things that I would look at to allow me to continue vaping.
4
SPEAKER_02
I would literally cherry pick the articles.
4
SPEAKER_00
I fully know what I was doing, but I would be like, I read one article once that nicotine as a chemical, it s the same as caffeine.
4
SPEAKER_00
It might be a little bit more addicting, but when it comes to like,
4
SPEAKER_00
it s risks, I guess?
4
SPEAKER_00
It was equal.
4
SPEAKER_01
So now there s this new, that was kind of how I had understood it as well, and then when we did this episode and dove in, that was like kind of for a long time, and because it s so hard to study, because most of our nicotine research comes from smokers,
4
SPEAKER_01
And so you re like, how are you supposed to know what caused the damage?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like the nicotine in the tobacco or everything else that you re smoking?
4
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like when you burn the tobacco.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so now they re doing research and it s really at its early stages.
4
SPEAKER_01
So what we ve known for a while is that smokers have a high risk of getting depression.
4
SPEAKER_01
And for a long time, there was this question of correlation causation, which is basically this question of what did the smoking
5
SPEAKER_01
cause the depression, were these people already likely to become depressed?
5
SPEAKER_00
Or are depressive people less likely to care about their well-being, therefore smoke?
5
SPEAKER_01
Therefore smoke or smoke to already help with the symptoms of depression.
5
SPEAKER_01
It just wasn t clear whether nicotine was... Then they started to see the same pattern with vapors.
5
SPEAKER_01
So vapors were more likely to get depression.
5
SPEAKER_01
Again, you have the same, like, what was going on.
5
SPEAKER_01
So now, to answer that question, science often uses, like, rodent studies, basically, to try and find, like, a mechanism, like, how on earth could nicotine, like, what do we know about nicotine in the brain?
5
SPEAKER_01
Or in the rat brain?
5
SPEAKER_01
Um, how could it cause depression?
5
SPEAKER_01
Does that even make sense?
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, this early research and the problem is it s in rats.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not in humans.
5
SPEAKER_01
But what they re finding is that like, there are some areas in the brain, like the reward center that like makes things feel good.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, when you smell a flower and you re like, that was nice.
5
SPEAKER_01
like nicotine does seem to be affecting the reward center in these rats.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yep.
5
SPEAKER_01
That makes sense.
5
SPEAKER_01
That makes sense.
5
SPEAKER_01
It makes sense.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so there is this question that maybe for some people it s sort of like dampening your enjoyment is sort of the theory, which we know is a symptom of depression is that like things that used to give you joy or that perhaps give other people joy don t, you re like, whatever.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yep.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so that, you know, so that s kind of where the research is at, which is like, we re seeing this trend.
5
SPEAKER_01
We see it in the rats.
5
SPEAKER_01
And yeah, we ll have to wait and see.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I don t want to oversell it that nicotine s going to cause everyone s depression, because that s clearly not the case.
5
SPEAKER_01
But we re just seeing that pattern.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so it s just another reason, I think, if people want to reduce consumption.
5
SPEAKER_00
The few times I ve quit, insane depression.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m a very anxious person anyway.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I think anytime anything changes, my anxiety is just the first thing to react, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
But horrible anxiety, like the worst.
5
SPEAKER_00
That was really bad.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, it was really bad and like mood swings and like all these issues and then you know now I m My nicotine consumption if you were to like look at how much I m consuming now versus when I was using the bit It s much less and I do feel much more emotionally stable
5
SPEAKER_00
Which is interesting.
5
SPEAKER_00
And my parents noticed that too.
5
SPEAKER_00
They re like, oh my God, when you re not... I always get so mad at my mom, because she d be like, I swear to God, the vape makes you a wreck.
5
SPEAKER_00
It makes you a wreck.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about?
5
SPEAKER_00
I ve been vaping since I was 16.
5
SPEAKER_00
Bitch.
5
SPEAKER_00
Me being so mean to my mom, and it s because I m vaping?
5
SPEAKER_00
Because I m vaping.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m being rude to her because I m so strong on this shit.
5
SPEAKER_00
What are you saying?
5
SPEAKER_00
What are you saying?
5
SPEAKER_00
Shut up, bitch.
5
SPEAKER_00
I am so emotionally stable right now.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think it definitely made me, or I noticed that sort of, I don t know, I think there is an emotional impact.
5
SPEAKER_00
Overall, the consensus is we don t actually know that much about vaping, but we know that we shouldn t be doing it.
5
SPEAKER_01
All the signs are pointing to if you cannot do it, that s great.
5
SPEAKER_01
And the less that you do it, the better.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
Have you done anything about alcohol?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Is there any way to drink alcohol?
5
SPEAKER_00
Because I ve seen so many contradicting things.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s been the study, a glass of red wine every night, it doesn t hurt.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ve seen that.
5
SPEAKER_00
But then I ve also seen like,
5
SPEAKER_00
Tequila with lemon, totally healthy.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s actually totally fine.
5
SPEAKER_00
And my mom was like, my mom texted me that once and was like, oh my God, see, this is what you order.
5
SPEAKER_00
So it s totally fine.
5
SPEAKER_00
Tequila soda with lime or lemon.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s totally fine.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, yay!
5
SPEAKER_00
Or like, you know, only on the weekends.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like, if you only have it a few times a week, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
Like if you save it for special occasions, it s totally fine.
5
SPEAKER_00
What are your thoughts on drinking?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
The alcohol episode was one that actually made me change my habits and made me change the way I drink.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s actually kind of like a really interesting science story of why we thought alcohol was good for your heart.
5
SPEAKER_01
Basically, researchers like did these studies where they got, you know, it s like what if someone were like, how would you run a study to find out whether alcohol was good for your heart?
5
SPEAKER_01
You re like, we get 10,000 people, whatever.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ask like, how much alcohol do you drink?
5
SPEAKER_01
And then you follow them for a bit of time and you see who s hot.
5
SPEAKER_00
Looks the best.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, alcohol looks the best.
5
SPEAKER_01
And what they kept finding is that the people who drank alcohol seemed to have better hearts than people who drank no alcohol whatsoever.
5
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so they were like, this is amazing.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think maybe the first studies were to do with wine, but then later studies came out about all the alcohols and they were like, oh my gosh.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then they start telling
5
SPEAKER_01
Antioxidants, antioxidants must be good for your heart.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now we have a mechanism.
5
SPEAKER_01
We re in.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then some researchers were like, wait a second, wait a second.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like who are these people who aren t drinking any alcohol at all?
5
SPEAKER_01
And this was like pre the non-alcohol era, you know, and you might think it would be, and I would have still thought like, no, like maybe it s like my body is a temple, super healthy.
5
SPEAKER_01
But it turned out that the group of people who weren t drinking any alcohol at all were actually people who were sick.
5
SPEAKER_01
and their doctors had said, you need to stop drinking alcohol.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so then there was this big battle in science, like maybe it s a little bit good for you, even if you, blah, blah, blah.
5
SPEAKER_01
But now I think that the thinking is it s not really that good for your heart.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it was just this like,
5
SPEAKER_01
This like, you know, science progresses, science progresses.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then, but what we do know is that it is a carcinogen and it does increase your risk of cancer.
5
SPEAKER_01
I didn t know it was a carcinogen.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Which is crazy.
5
SPEAKER_01
I should have known that.
5
SPEAKER_01
The breakdown products of alcohol can like muck up your DNA and like, and it causes, and that is what, because like when you get older, people you love start getting cancer.
5
SPEAKER_01
And, uh, and that s what made me really cut down my drinking.
5
SPEAKER_01
I was like, cause we do so much.
5
SPEAKER_01
To prevent cancer like, you know, yeah, like I ll go do exercise.
5
SPEAKER_01
I ll do this I ll do that and then I was like, but I was still drinking a ton Totally, and I m like, oh, what am I doing?
5
SPEAKER_00
Like I don t need to be drinking a ton.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes Yeah, I d also like I mean at least for me it makes me anxious and depressed like it fucks with my brain Yeah, like when I m you know, you want to create like a crazy I did an episode on numb on hangovers or
5
SPEAKER_01
That was on my list.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think the most surprising episode we ve done.
5
SPEAKER_01
What do you think is the cause of hangovers?
5
SPEAKER_00
My guess would be that your liver is processing
5
SPEAKER_00
I have no idea, by the way, so this is so random, so this is my guess.
5
SPEAKER_00
We did like voxies on the street, like vox pops, and everyone had the same answer.
5
SPEAKER_01
It did not involve the liver.
5
SPEAKER_01
Dehydration!
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh!
5
SPEAKER_01
You re kidding.
5
SPEAKER_01
No, no, no, no, no, no.
5
SPEAKER_01
But that s what I think a lot of listeners, that s what I thought it was, dehydration.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s the thinking.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s what everyone thinks, is that it s being dehydrated.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re being dehydrated, yeah, because alcohol, there s this story that alcohol is a diuretic, it makes you pee.
5
SPEAKER_01
and then you lose a lot of water and you become dehydrated.
5
SPEAKER_01
But actually, anyone who has had a hangover knows about or thought they knew about this dehydration thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
I definitely have had a terrible hangover and I m like, before we did the study, and I m like, I gotta drink water, I gotta drink water, and I am peeing
5
SPEAKER_01
water.
5
SPEAKER_01
Clearly my body is rehydrated and I still have a terrible hangover.
5
SPEAKER_01
So the current thinking is that it s actually caused when your body breaks down alcohol, it produces like the breakdown products are kind of like little toxics, like just a little bit toxic.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it creates this inflammatory response
5
SPEAKER_01
because your body has this immune system where it s like, what s all these toxins doing in my body?
5
SPEAKER_01
And the immune system comes, and it starts to be like, get rid of all these toxins, creates inflammation.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that s what s thought to cause the terrible headaches, the real hangover effects where you re just like, ugh, brain fog, stuff like that.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s inflammation.
5
SPEAKER_00
That makes complete sense.
5
SPEAKER_00
OK, wait.
5
SPEAKER_00
This is completely, this last topic that I need, because this is so me, I cannot, we cannot skip this one.
5
SPEAKER_00
Gossiping.
5
SPEAKER_00
I need the science on gossip.
5
SPEAKER_00
Is it, am I allowed, I m such a gossiper.
5
SPEAKER_00
I am, but I believe that it s healthy.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, that s my belief.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because, to an extent, I think that it s healthy when it s done
5
SPEAKER_00
responsibly, like when it s not just like when it s not harmful hat the other day, like it s just mean and bitchy.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s when it s like for the sake of.
5
SPEAKER_00
analysis.
5
SPEAKER_00
Let s discuss gossip.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think a lot of people will say gossip is all bad.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like that s a negative thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s nothing redeeming there.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then some people will be like, no, this is how we connect as human beings.
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We should gossip all the time.
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But I don t think that that s probably where the science lands.
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What s the ruling on gossip?
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I mean, that kind of is where the science lands.
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So we know that gossip can be harmful.
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particularly in high school, middle school, we ve all been there.
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It can be really nasty, it can ostracize, if you re the target of gossip, it can increase your risk of mental health issues.
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There s also a lot of studies done in the workplace, which I hadn t thought of as a gossip-mongery place, but of course it is.
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Studies that show that gossipy workplaces, people tend to be
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less creative, less happy, you know, and we ve all been there as well.
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And it is, it s like stifling to be in a gossipy workplace.
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But then the positives.
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So interestingly, there was this really fun study that got people, a Spanish study, that got people to, they were scanning their brains, I think it was an EEG, and gave them either statements that were gossip or statements that were just like trivia.
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I think they started a sentence that was like, the highest mountain in Germany is blah.
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And then they said, how interested are you in this answer?
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And people would answer whatever, very interested, not interested at all.
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And then for the gossip ones, I think there was one that was like, who did Barack Obama have an affair with?
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Yes, totally.
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And people were like, you know, not interested.
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Like, I don t, that s not me.
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I m not interested in that.
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Then he went back to them like a week later and was like, so do you remember what the highest mountain in Germany is?
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People tended to be like,
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And they re like, do you remember the answer to the Obama question, which was Beyonce?
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Yes.
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Which is this huge rumor in Europe.
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And so we know that we remember this content.
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Also, when he looked back at the brain data, he could see that people s brains sort of lit up.
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It s like the brains were giving them away.
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The brains were more excited about the gossip too.
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Even though people said, like, I don t care about that.
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They re morally like, I don t care about that.
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But then they re like Googling it the second they re out of their MRIs.
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Exactly.
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There is something about gossip that we love.
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And there is a bonding component to it, without a doubt.
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Like you meet new friends, you know, who know your other, it s like a connector.
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You know, you can feel that love in the room when you got some great story about a friend.
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It may not be bitchy.
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Yeah.
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So there is like a bonding component.
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And so I think like where our episode landed, and maybe it s where the sides landed, is like, if you could gossip in a way that isn t going to hurt someone else,
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If you could be a little careful with how you tell a story, then you could get the benefits of gossiping without the detriment.
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And also, there was this fun study that I think tracked middle schoolers and that said that if someone is saying really negative gossip, which really only happens in middle school, I feel like, when you grow up, you abandon those friends pretty quickly.
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If the next person in line, say someone was like, oh my gosh, Jeremy s pants today look really stupid.
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And then the next person said, oh, I actually think the pants look cool.
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That was the fizzle.
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The gossip ended.
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You needed that second person to be like, oh yeah, him and his stupid pants.
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And then it was like,
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So you can be like the savior of the gossip.
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If someone s just saying something mean, if you like punch it down, it s like, oh, not a good story.
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Like.
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That s true.
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So that s what the study found.
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So you could be the savior of the gossip.
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Or you could not.
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I believe in like, I do believe, though, that for the for the for somebody who is like me, for example, who loves gossip like I do, although I m so, so protected about it, like I have like
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four people in my life, maybe five that I gossiped with.
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I was just about to ask you what s the best bit of gossip you ve heard recently.
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I m so good about, I ll share some gossip with you after, I ll come up with something.
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But it s like, I never share it on the internet.
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A lot of people go on their podcast and are like, let s gossip.
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It s like, no, don t do that.
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That s like the worst thing you could do for society.
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Okay, so, you know, it s like a handful of people, only when I know that it will never get back to the person, like,
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And that s fine.
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And then also, it s not all I but I have noticed that even though I m somebody who s prone to gossip, enjoys gossip, loves gossip, believes in gossip, thinks it s crucial for society, I also know that you have to, it can be negative even for the person who loves it and who wants to discuss it.
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If it s
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if it s not done right, like you.
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You don t wanna be like getting enjoyment off other people s pain as well.
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Like I don t think.
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It has to be fair.
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Yeah, and that s like, that s like not a good side to the soul.
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No.
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I guess you re not really gonna feel great after just, you gotta, yeah.
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It has to be in good faith.
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Like you have to like, if you re gonna be shitting on someone,
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they have to have shit first.
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So it s like, you know what I m saying?
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They need to have done something genuinely bad.
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You can t be that on a t-shirt.
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I know, that s, okay, that s so easy.
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SPEAKER_00
You re gonna be shitting on someone.
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I m gonna now, if you guys make anybody out there merch companies, I m gonna be making that, so it ll be really extensive, but I ll make sure, just because, yeah, but get ready.
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I just remembered another fun fact from that episode, which is that men gossip basically as much as women do.
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SPEAKER_01
Whoa.
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Yeah.
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So they ve done these studies where they like put microphones on people and then switch them like on and off.
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This is why we love science.
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We can objectively measure this stuff.
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Yes.
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At different times.
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And so they find that men do it too.
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And the definition of gossip is, it s a very loose one.
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It s just talking about someone when they re not there.
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So it s not necessarily mean, but men, women, we all do it.
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I refuse
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to date a guy who will not gossip with me.
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Like, I m actually not kidding, that is a deal breaker.
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Like, if there s... Because if they re going to be annoying about it, like... No, I m like, if I m like, if I want to be like, oh, like this, you know, this girl was like so rude to me today and she did this and blah, blah, blah.
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I need, I refuse
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to go on a second date with a man who, I don t really go on dates, it s not very Gen Z, but anyway, I refuse to entertain somebody who will not be like, wait, what was she wearing?
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I need a guy who will.
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They gotta have fun with it.
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No, I need a guy who will meet me there.
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And it s true, it s not as stereotypically, it s a woman thing, but if you allow
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Everyone gossips.
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It s everyone.
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It s everyone.
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It s really not a girl thing.
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No, it s not.
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It s not.
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I think, yeah, I think maybe some of the studies show that like sometimes women do mean a gossip on it, but everyone s talking about everyone else.
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SPEAKER_01
Otherwise, what are you going to talk about?
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Actually, what else is there to talk about?
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No, I m not kidding.
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What else is there?
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I think about that sometimes.
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Like, yeah, you can talk about art.
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You can talk about yourself.
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You can talk about music.
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You can talk about, you know,
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You can talk about philosophy, but when you, okay, but that s like, oh, okay, great.
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Now you have an hour used up.
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SPEAKER_01
What else is there?
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Now there s gossip.
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Sorry, that s when the gossip comes in.
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Okay, so that s great.
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So now I know that.
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You can feel good about it.
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SPEAKER_00
Science approves of your gossiping.
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SPEAKER_01
Okay, so I can t vape, but I can have a glass of wine every once in a while, and I can fucking gossip.
6
SPEAKER_01
So life is good, and you know what?
6
SPEAKER_01
And you can orgasm.
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SPEAKER_00
I know, I was going to say, and I can orgasm.
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SPEAKER_01
Every fucking time!
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SPEAKER_01
Yes!
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I just, as long as, no, you just need, oh my god.
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Not that, and I should, there are other ways to enjoy sex and being with each other.
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SPEAKER_00
You don t, not so much pressure on the orgasm.
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SPEAKER_01
No, I, I m sorry, but.
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If they re doing it, you can do it.
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SPEAKER_01
No, I, I ve, as, like, you know, like, there s a phase, I think, in every young woman s life where it s like,
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SPEAKER_01
Damn, it s not happening, huh?
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SPEAKER_00
I will say, yeah, it took mid-20s before I was even horny.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, really?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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Interesting.
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Coming on the show, I was like, oh, what is something that I think is an important message that we don t talk about enough?
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Yes.
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Because there s so much pressure, particularly in high school, maybe in college too, about like, oh, she s frigid.
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SPEAKER_00
She s frigid.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, I was so frigid.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Were you frigid or were you just not horny?
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SPEAKER_01
No, I wasn t.
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SPEAKER_01
I wasn t.
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And also, I wasn t... I don t think I was... It was not possible for me because you can t mentally get there unless you feel safe.
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But I remember sitting around, when I lived in a share house in Sydney with amazing three other women, and we were sitting around, I guess I would have been in my mid-twenties then, and they were all talking about the first time they masturbated.
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And one of them was like, I never remember a time I didn t masturbate.
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SPEAKER_00
They were like, I kind of remember rubbing up against stuff when I was three years old.
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SPEAKER_00
Like, I didn t even think about it as masturbate.
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SPEAKER_00
Another one said when I was 13.
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That s when I was like, I was like going down in there.
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And they turned to me and I was like, um, I haven t done it.
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SPEAKER_01
I so get it because I didn t until I, okay, wait, no, for me, I, I came from, like, my first orgasm was from a guy.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
Like doing it for me.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Like my first boyfriend.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, me too.
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And I was like, what?
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And I had never, I didn t even know.
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SPEAKER_01
It was crazy.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s right.
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SPEAKER_01
That s right.
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SPEAKER_01
And no one s like talking to you about it.
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SPEAKER_01
No one s like giving you advice.
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SPEAKER_01
And unlike with guys, it s not like right out there.
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SPEAKER_01
So you have to have like an urge from within.
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SPEAKER_01
And I just like didn t have that.
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SPEAKER_00
You don t know what you re missing.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
Until my mid twenties.
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SPEAKER_01
And so like, I really wish the conversation, instead of it being like,
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frigid or whatever, or whatever fucking words they re using to like judge women and girls who don t want to have sex.
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SPEAKER_01
It s just like, do you want sex right now?
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SPEAKER_01
You don t have to want sex right now.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes.
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SPEAKER_01
You know, like you re 13, you re 16, you re 19.
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SPEAKER_01
Maybe you re just not horny.
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SPEAKER_01
And like, there s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
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SPEAKER_01
And so like, what happened when I was 25?
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SPEAKER_01
I was like, fucking awesome.
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SPEAKER_01
I know.
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SPEAKER_00
I love that.
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SPEAKER_00
I, I m so of that.
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SPEAKER_00
Like,
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SPEAKER_00
It s because it s not, it s not even good when you re younger anyway.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like, it s not that, it s not, okay, so like, for example, it s always like, oh, like, have sex, like, you know, you want to, like, have sex as soon as you can.
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SPEAKER_00
This was, like, the belief when you re, you know, in high school or whatever.
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SPEAKER_00
It s like, have sex now so that you can get good at it and then it, whatever.
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SPEAKER_00
But it s like, you re so, no, if you, that s just not how it works.
7
SPEAKER_01
If you re not feeling horny, you don t need to do anything.
7
SPEAKER_00
No.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh my God, I could talk to you all day.
7
SPEAKER_00
You have to come on again.
7
SPEAKER_00
I would love that.
7
SPEAKER_00
This is so much fun.
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SPEAKER_00
Because I m not kidding.
7
SPEAKER_00
We could go down every... We just scratched the surface today.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
That was amazing.
7
SPEAKER_00
Thank you so much for having me.
7
SPEAKER_00
Thank you for coming on.
7
SPEAKER_00
This is so much fun.
7
SPEAKER_00
The best ever.
7
SPEAKER_00
No, you actually have to come on again.
7
SPEAKER_00
I would love that.
7
SPEAKER_00
Okay, great.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.