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I can tell you who should have a miracle morning, but let me tell you something, not everybody should, and biologically, you can fight Mother Nature for just so long.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re talking with Dr. Michael Bruce.
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We re going to talk about sleep, and not just any kind of get eight hours, make sure you get up, and change your coffee schedule type sleep.
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We re talking about your chronotypes, and when in your day it s best to
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Do things like be creative, eat a cheeseburger, have sex, or just go back to sleep.
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And we re going to discuss how to find your chronotype, how your chronotype will affect you in your relationships, exercise, sleep, eating, everything here.
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And of course, throw in some curve balls like adrenal fatigue, how to fix certain sleep issues that you re having, and how to make sure that you re at your optimum peak sleep or non-sleep state, depending on what you want to get done during the day.
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By the way, if you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the AOC toolbox where we discuss things like reading body language, having charismatic nonverbal communication, attraction, negotiation techniques, networking and influence strategies, mentorship, persuasion tactics, and everything else we teach here at the Art of Charm.
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Check that out at theartofcharm.com and also at theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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You can find the full show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show.
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Alright, here s Dr. Michael Bruce.
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First of all, thanks for coming on the show.
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Obviously, we appreciate having you come through, and sleep is a popular topic, well, as you ve built a whole career around it, you already know that.
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However, there s a lot of pseudoscience and BS involved in the sleep stuff, as you ve probably also seen.
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So I d like to basically, one, introduce the fact that you are a PhD clinical psychologist, board-certified sleep specialist, and not that there s anything wrong with that, not some kid in the garage who s like, I think I figured out this sleep thing, guys.
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And I love biohacking and I love biohackers, but I feel like there s a real pull when it comes to the biohacking stuff to go, well, this worked for me, so this is science now.
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Yeah, no, it doesn t work that way.
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But I m happy to dispel the myths as they were.
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Great, yeah, you ve been doing this for 16 years, subspecialty of insomnia.
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Why study sleep?
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Was this something you were solving in your own medical life or what?
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me this all the time and the truth of the matter is it was actually kind of serendipitous.
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I was in graduate school.
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I was interested in sport psychology.
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I was interested in athletes and, you know, performance and in performance enhancement through psychological techniques.
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I was there at the University of Georgia getting my clinical psychology degree and doing a dual degree
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in the Department of Exercise Science along with the Department of Psychology.
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And the best internship in the country, believe it or not, was at the University of Mississippi Medical Center in Jackson, Mississippi, of all places.
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And I couldn t get in.
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Only the Harvards and the Yales and the Princetons kind of got into this program.
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But they had a sleep track that was available.
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And I had worked my way through graduate school.
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I m kind of a geek.
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I understand how to take apart all those
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EKG machines and brain mapping machines and all that stuff and put them back together.
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And that s how I worked my way through grad school.
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And those are the same machines that we use for sleep.
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And so I said, you know what, I can do all the stuff in that sleep rotation.
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So I m going to get myself accepted to that.
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And then I m going to transfer once I get there.
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Into the sports psychology program.
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I thought I was gonna do like an end around right and be real sneaky about the whole thing Right by the third day.
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I absolutely fell in love with clinical sleep medicine, dude I have the opportunity to change people s lives in an instant.
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It s amazing.
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I mean, I literally change people s lives in 24 hours.
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It s
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It s truly a gift.
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I feel very fortunate to be able to do it and being able to recognize apnea in somebody or narcolepsy or being able to give people that information that s really, really helpful.
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And that s impactful.
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You know, I mean, I believe that everything you do, you do better with a good night s sleep.
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That for sure is true, and I mean, now with more sleep research, of which you are on the cutting edge, you see now it s like, well, getting a bad night s sleep used to just be annoying.
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When I was a kid, it was like, I didn t sleep well, your dad didn t sleep well, no big deal, he s a little cranky.
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Now we re seeing, look, if you didn t get a good night s sleep, it s like you had three drinks, and you shouldn t operate machinery, and your task switching is lower, and your cognitive abilities are slow, and if you stay up all night working a night shift,
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you have the same lifespan issues as somebody who smoked a pack of cigarettes every day.
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So we re starting to find out like, oh, it s not just nice to sleep well, it s mandatory for all levels of human performance in pretty much every area of your life.
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I think a lot of us don t really notice this stuff if we don t have a problem with it, right?
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We think, well, you know, I snore, no big deal, or yeah, I ve had a little bit of insomnia, I have trouble getting to sleep two or three times a week, or things like that.
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And I remember when I was in college,
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Every time I had to pull an all-nighter for anything, there was always this kid in the computer lab.
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And one day I got to talking with him and he said, yeah, I m an insomniac.
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And I said, well, don t they have medication for that?
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And he said, yeah, and I m allergic to the medication.
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And I thought, man, you poor bastard.
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So this kid was up all night, every night, and I remember many afternoons walking into the computer lab at 2 p.m.
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and he would be passed out on the couch, just dead.
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And I thought, how do you live your life on the schedule of,
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your body just does whatever the hell it wants at all times, and I just thought that was miserable.
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And looking at other friends of mine with sleep disorders, I mean, my dad and mom s close friend growing up had narcolepsy, and to me, for most of my life, all that meant was it was kind of funny, because he d fall asleep with a fork in his mouth while we re eating salad at a restaurant, but it actually was really awful.
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He couldn t drive.
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He had to take the train to work.
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They stopped doing the train, so he had to get a ride with his wife.
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I mean, these sleep disorders just dominate your life.
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You d be shocked at how many people have a sleep disorder and don t know.
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You know, if we just looked at, for example, sleep apnea, right?
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And so there s a lot of people out there who say, yeah, I snore.
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Not a big deal.
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You know, that s my bed partner s problem.
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That s not my problem.
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Roughly 50% of people snore.
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And we re thinking now somewhere between 12 and maybe even as high as 18% of men have sleep apnea with only three to 4% of it being diagnosed.
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I mean, if there s 400 million people in the United States, right, you re talking about almost 80 million people who have sleep apnea and they re driving cars.
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They re hanging out with their friends and their family.
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They re cranky.
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They re not doing well.
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They re not getting oxygen to their brain, for God s sakes.
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I mean, this is a big friggin deal.
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And that s small compared to the insomnia numbers.
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You look at insomnia in the United States, there s data to show that 56%
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56% of people, at some point in time in their week, will have a bad night s sleep.
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I mean, that s not insomnia, but that kinda sucks.
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Yeah, that s really, really bad.
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And when I get a bad night s sleep, I can tell the difference.
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I sleep pretty well.
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At one point, I had to have my tonsils out as an adult, and they gave me the sleep apnea test before that.
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I don t know why, maybe just to see if they could convince insurance to pay for more of it, because I had some other disorder.
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And I didn t have it, still had my tonsils out, because they were enormous.
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Every time I got sick, I couldn t even eat.
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and had trouble breathing, but I didn t have sleep apnea, and the women running the test were just genuinely shocked that I didn t have sleep apnea.
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They just thought, everybody who comes in here, and running our boot camps and things like that, our live programs at AOC, we have a lot of people from all over the world staying in our properties, and every other month, somebody comes in and goes, look, this is embarrassing, but I ve got this CPAP machine, which is like a frickin  lawnmower, chainsaw type device
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onto your face and you try to sleep with it on, that adds air pressure.
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And a lot of it s caused by what?
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What are these diseases about?
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Great question.
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So first of all, there s several types of sleep apnea.
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One of them is called obstructive sleep apnea, which means there s literally an obstruction.
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There s big tonsils, there s a low palate, there s a big uvula, there s some level of anatomy that s enlarged that s causing a blockage in your throat.
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So, when you think about breathing while sleeping, think about a garden hose, right?
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So, you ever been out in the garden, you stick your thumb over the end of the hose and the water squirts out faster?
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Sure.
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Same holds true with your nose.
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So, your nose is this hose and the air comes in through your nose and down your throat and into your lungs.
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Obviously, you need to breathe, right?
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So, anything that narrows that airway makes the air move faster.
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When the air moves faster, it causes a vibration which causes a snore.
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Then as the air moves even faster, it causes a suction and it will literally bring the sides of your throat in and you collapse.
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Now it happens more in people who are obese because they ve got all this adipose tissue sitting on their neck that s literally pushing, pushing, pushing down on that hose and making it thinner and thinner and thinner.
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And then when you hit REM sleep where you have actually no muscular control, you become paralyzed, boom, you hit sleep apnea.
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You actually have a lot more apnea in REM sleep than you do in any other stage.
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For me, I just thought, okay, there s a lot of people with sleep disorders and it s because they re fat or something and they just need to lose weight and it s fine.
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But a lot of very otherwise normal people have these sleep disorders.
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And why are these so prevalent?
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I mean, how have we evolved for hundreds of thousands of years and our bodies can t figure out how to sleep properly?
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I mean, where s the wisdom in this?
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Looking at the origins of like where does sleep apnea come from is currently, I wouldn t say unknown, but is speculative at best.
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But one of the things that we know is when we look at children s mouths, children s mouths and their jaw and their skull and the entire what we call oropharynx is getting more and more narrow as time goes on.
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And that is just a function of evolution.
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Well, the more narrow you make that airway, the harder it is to get air through there.
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You may have never heard of this but a lot of kids have to have what s called a palate expander which is just this it s almost looks like a retainer and it goes into the top of their mouth and it actually helps pull the jaw open a little bit more which opens
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that airway.
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Basically everything s getting too crowded back there and a lot of it has to do with the size of your tongue and a lot of it has to do with the size of your jaw.
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And a lot of that s craniofacial structure, right?
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And so if your father or your mother had a jaw that was receding, right, so your chin is not in front of your lips but behind your lips, everything starts to get crowded back there.
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And so we look at anatomical differences and we look at evolutionarily where are things going.
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To be honest with you, the diet of America really sucks.
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And so as we see people getting heavier and heavier and heavier, one thing most people don t know is men can actually deposit fat inside their throat.
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Oh, God, that s such a gross thing to imagine right now.
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But continue.
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I know it s disgusting, right?
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That is so nasty.
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There s this thing inside your throat called a fat pad.
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It s only in men.
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It s not in women.
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And as men gain weight, it expands.
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You ever notice how with guys, when they gain weight, they gain it through their neck and right around their belly.
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Whereas when women gain weight, they gain it in their rear end, right?
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So it s very different places where fat is deposited, and that s due to where the brain signals the fat to go.
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And so that s why we see a higher prevalence in men than we do in women.
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That s why there s a, and pardon the crude term, there s a fat guy voice.
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Absolutely, no question about it.
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That s so interesting, because it does change your, I just thought it was, I don t know what I thought it was, but I didn t realize it was fat in your throat.
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I mean, that s kind of disgustingly incredible in many ways.
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Even more so, so this is kind of a fun hack, if you will, is anybody who has over a 17 and a half inch neck has like an 82% chance of having sleep apnea.
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Like seriously dude, I could hang out at the big and tall store and just pass out my card.
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And I would have plenty of patience.
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Somebody should sew a label in all of those XXL shirts.
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Just by the way, get your sleep checked.
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Wow, alright.
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Well, there s just so many people out there who can t sleep well.
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And you came up with these, right?
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These chronotypes.
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Okay, and is chronotype, pardon my ignorance, is that a real word or is that kind of a thing that you created?
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Okay, I wasn t sure.
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Just for everybody out there, I have a new book.
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It s called The Power of When.
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And if you wanna learn more about it, you can go to my quiz, thepowerofwhenquiz.com and learn what your chronotype is.
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Now chronotype is not a word that everybody s really heard of, but actually everybody already knows what it is.
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So if you ve ever been told that you re an early bird or a night owl, those are chronotypes.
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And believe it or not, the study of chronobiology has been around for almost 20 years.
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There s over 350 studies within the last five years just looking at chronotypes.
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And so I m an insomnia specialist, that s what I do.
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And I had a woman come in, maybe almost four years ago now, and this wasn t terribly uncommon, but it wasn t something that I saw every day.
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And she said, Dr. Bruce, I ve tried all your techniques, and it s not that I can t fall asleep, and it s not that I can t stay asleep.
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It s that I sleep at the wrong times.
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I said, you sleep at the wrong times?
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What do you mean?
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She said, my day would be perfect if I could go to bed at two and wake up at nine.
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And I was like, well, why don t you do that?
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And she said, well, my husband and my family wouldn t like it, and my boss certainly wouldn t like it.
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And she said, and incidentally, I think I m about to get fired from work.
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And I said, well, I want to run an experiment.
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Can I call your boss?
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And she s like, yeah, sure.
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So I called her boss, and I said, hey, I ve got this patient.
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I think she s what I call a wolf.
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I think she s a night owl.
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And I d love to see, can we just have her come in two hours later, so have her coming in around 1030 and have her leaving at around 630 just as for normal work hours.
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And he said, well, you better act fast because I m going to fire her in a week.
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And I was like, okay, so this is some serious stuff.
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So let me do the experiment.
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He was like, absolutely.
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We get the new hours.
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I call him a week later and he said, I don t know what you did.
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But she s showing up at the right time.
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She s participating in meetings.
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Her work product is great.
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She s not falling asleep, you know, in the mornings at her desk.
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He was like, she s fantastic.
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She gets to keep her job.
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Now that I ve understood this, this is really important stuff.
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And I was like, ah, cool.
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So I call them to tell them the news and her husband gets on the phone and he says, I like my wife more now.
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Right, because she s not a demon every morning at breakfast.
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Exactly.
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And it was like such a powerful statement to hear somebody say, I mean, I had never even met this guy, you know, and that was a pretty powerful statement for him to say.
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And so when I was interviewing her more, she said, you know what, Dr. Bruce, I realized that I have my own time zones.
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And I m like,
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Okay, what do you mean by that?
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And she said, I found that there are certain times during the day that I can do certain things better than others.
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And I was like, okay, let s figure this one out.
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So I went to the medical literature and found that literally over 350 studies looking at all of these chronotypes.
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Now, there are different theories out there as to how many chronotypes there are.
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We used to think there was just two.
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I didn t believe that, I thought there were four.
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So I went looking and there s people who are early morning people, I call them lions.
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There are people who are night people, I call them wolves, by the way, I m a wolf, I rarely go to bed before midnight.
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There are people in the middle, I call them bears, and then there are my insomniacs, kind of my problem sleepers, and I call them dolphins.
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I chose animal archetypes that actually mimic these patterns in their daily lives.
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Lions have a tendency to get up before dawn, have their first kill before dawn.
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Bears kind of get up with the sun and then go to sleep with the sun.
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Wolves are very nocturnal creatures, they hunt in packs at night, and dolphins,
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Believe it or not, dolphins sleep unihemispherically.
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So half of their brain is asleep while the other half is awake and looking for predators.
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And I thought that was a really interesting representation of my folks with insomnia.
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So you can take this quiz online and I figured out how to put you into one of these four categories.
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Once I know what category you re in, I can actually look at your hormone distribution.
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And once I know your hormone distribution, I matched it up to daily activities.
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I can tell you the best time to have sex, eat a cheeseburger, run a mile, ask your boss for a raise, you name it.
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Yeah, preferably not all at the same time.
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No, if you re gonna do this, you wanna have sex first before you eat the cheeseburger, and you certainly don t wanna ask your boss for a raise until much later on.
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Right, yes, okay, thanks for coming.
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Try the veal.
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Yes, exactly.
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Jason, we re gonna have to work out our throats now.
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I m still hung up on that friggin  throat pad thing.
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I know, I don t know what kind of exercise I can do on my throat.
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So there are actually tongue exercises out there that people can do to actually strengthen their tongue, believe it or not.
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I think I m gonna have to buy her a cheeseburger first, though.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, exactly.
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I gotta say, though, there s, yes, there s these chronotypes, but insomnia is not just a chronotype, right?
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No, absolutely not.
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There s just people who can t fall asleep ever.
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Absolutely.
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Okay, I just wanted to highlight that, because I don t want everybody to think, well, I m an insomniac, just doesn t mean I m not an early bird, I got a real thing going on here.
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Absolutely, and I treat that in my practice.
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I m sure, yeah, and I m just thinking of when I was a kid, school started at freaking 7.05 or something, and everyone was just useless for the first three periods of the day.
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Yep, and so what you ve hit upon is a biological chronotype that happens at certain ages, right?
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And so I have a soon-to-be-15-year-old son and a 13-year-old daughter.
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and they re both wolves, okay?
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Only because of their age.
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So we know during adolescence that your entire biological clock or your circadian rhythm actually shifts late, right?
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So think about it.
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When you were in high school, what did you want to do?
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You wanted to stay up until two and sleep until 12, right?
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Yes, every day.
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Exactly, and that s biologically driven.
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However, some people never swing back.
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Those people are what I call wolves.
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I happen to be one.
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Right, okay, this is interesting, because eventually I figured out, looking back at my bucking the system starting early, I figured out, okay, I m gonna take a class where I can always do a make-up session, which is like a weightlifting, that s first period, second period s a study hall, because they didn t allow those first period, because I knew we d sleep in, and then third period, I was gonna do some sort of volunteer thing and stack it up on the weekends.
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So I was sleeping in till like nine every day my senior year, and my grades skyrocketed, because I would get up and I would be in the zone, man, I didn t have to warm up
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through English and history barely keeping my eyes open, and I just remember parents and things like that and teachers saying, oh, you guys are so lazy, and I wish I could just transport this conversation back, because I remember thinking, no, no, in 10, 15 years, they re gonna figure out that everybody our age just needs
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sleep in, we re not all lazy.
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Not everybody who s 14 or 15 is lazy, that s literally impossible, plus I m staying up till two doing homework, throwing down my work gauntlet here, so it s just so obvious now, and so I think this is really important for parents to see that their kids aren t just being lazy if they re sleeping in, but also for ourselves, because there s this trend in the entrepreneur world, this trend in millennials in general, where it s like,
1
SPEAKER_01
you gotta get up at 3 a.m., and you gotta work out and meditate, and then you gotta do this and that and the other thing, and that works really good for some people, and I like getting up early, but there are just as many other people that are completely non-functioning before 9, 10 a.m.
1
SPEAKER_01
They just can t do it.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s gotta be something that we work with and not just insult them until they get the memo.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so you hit on a really good point here.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I was interviewed by Hal Elrod.
1
SPEAKER_00
Perfect example.
1
SPEAKER_00
The Miracle Morning guy, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
I m in his new movie because I am the juxtaposition, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
I am the antithesis because I can tell you who should have a miracle morning, but let me tell you something.
1
SPEAKER_00
Not everybody should, and biologically, you can fight Mother Nature for just so long.
1
SPEAKER_00
She s a bitch, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And so don t piss her off, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And so if you re a night person like I am with the wolf, you can t have that miracle morning.
1
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t really work for you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Now I can show people some hacks as to how to make themselves a little bit earlier, but you know, if you re a wolf like me, you re a night person, you re never going to become, you know, that five AM or that s out there.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I don t want anybody out there to feel like, Oh my gosh, if I can t do that, I m never going to be a successful entrepreneur because it s plain old, not true.
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SPEAKER_00
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2
SPEAKER_02
And I took the sleep quiz, which we ll link up in the show notes, thepowerofonequiz.com.
2
SPEAKER_02
That ll be linked so people can go to theartofcharm.com, go to the show notes for this, and click through directly on that.
2
SPEAKER_02
But there were these different chronotypes.
2
SPEAKER_02
Of course, the problem is for a lot of us, we re married to somebody who doesn t have the exact same chronotype.
2
SPEAKER_02
I wanna touch on that after we define what the chronotypes are.
2
SPEAKER_02
So we define chronotype, it s essentially your Myers-Briggs for when, and then what are the different types of chronotypes here?
2
SPEAKER_02
Well, first of all, what areas do these hit, and what are the chronotypes?
2
SPEAKER_02
What do the chronotypes affect in our lives?
2
SPEAKER_02
Pretty much everything, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
One of the things that we know is chronotypes affect every aspect of your life.
2
SPEAKER_03
The different chronotypes, let me kind of explain to people what they are.
2
SPEAKER_03
So early bird is replaced by a lion.
2
SPEAKER_03
My lions are my COOs of a company.
2
SPEAKER_03
They re fairly organized people.
2
SPEAKER_03
Dr. Oz, believe it or not, is a lion.
2
SPEAKER_03
So one of the things we know is these are people who like to make a list at the beginning of the day and go from one to two to three to four.
2
SPEAKER_03
They re very kind of anal about things.
2
SPEAKER_03
They re what I call type A personalities, but can still get out of their own way.
2
SPEAKER_03
However, they do have a problem, and their problem is, is that socially, they re exhausted by 8.30 at night, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
And so, all these miracle morning folks that are getting up at 5 a.m.
2
SPEAKER_03
and things like that, they re completely exhausted by 8 o clock.
2
SPEAKER_03
So, you know, dinner and a movie is out for these kind of folks.
2
SPEAKER_03
My bears, which are my middle people, these are awesome folks.
2
SPEAKER_03
By the way, lions make up about 15% of the population.
2
SPEAKER_03
My bears make up the largest population, which is about 50% of the population.
2
SPEAKER_03
And these are people who are good at balancing work and play.
2
SPEAKER_03
These are the folks that are great to hang out at lunch with.
2
SPEAKER_03
You can have a great conversation with them.
2
SPEAKER_03
They know the kind of the office gossip or they re telling the funny story or something along those lines.
2
SPEAKER_03
Then we have the wolves, like myself.
2
SPEAKER_03
Wolves have a tendency to be more introverted, but they also have a tendency to be my creatives.
2
SPEAKER_03
These are my entrepreneurs, oftentimes.
2
SPEAKER_03
These are my artists, my musicians, my authors, my actors, people like that.
2
SPEAKER_03
These are people who don t show up at the party until 11.30, and they re kind of scanning the crowd.
2
SPEAKER_03
Once they decide that they like you, they will be your friend for life, but it s going to take them a little while to kind of get there.
2
SPEAKER_03
And then my dolphins are like my lion problem children.
2
SPEAKER_03
So they re type A personalities, but they have a tendency to be so obsessive compulsive that they can t kind of get out of their own way.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so oftentimes they can t seem to really function until they finished each and every project that they re working on.
2
SPEAKER_03
They can t multitask particularly well, although they try often and sometimes can be successful.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s certainly not working well for them.
2
SPEAKER_03
Whereas if you look at my,
2
SPEAKER_03
Wolves, my wolves can multitask all day long and they like to do three different things at the same time because it kind of gets their creative juices flowing.
2
SPEAKER_03
So once you take the quiz, you fall into one of these four buckets and that s where the fun begins.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, this was really interesting.
2
SPEAKER_02
Some of it was, of course, more accurate than the rest.
2
SPEAKER_02
I don t feel like any time you do a test like this, you re always gonna nail it, but there were definitely some traits that made perfect sense with me, and it does obviously relate to relationships, work, fitness, health, sleep, of course, eating and drinking.
2
SPEAKER_02
Creativity and money and fun were the interesting ones, especially because that s kind of where I was like, wait, what, creativity?
2
SPEAKER_02
and I d love to figure out when we re supposed to be involving ourselves in this type of work, and some of it comes through experience.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I know that, and Jason is the one that pointed this out, I am not good after 3 p.m.
2
SPEAKER_02
on a microphone unless, strangely, I hit another zone around like seven or eight where I m good,
2
SPEAKER_02
but between 3 p.m.
2
SPEAKER_02
and 7 p.m., I can t do anything that requires any sort of performance.
2
SPEAKER_02
I know when I m good at speaking, I know when I m good on the microphone, and it s morning, early afternoon at the latest, which is strange because I have no problem staying up, but I could also just be staying up too late for my ideal window here.
2
SPEAKER_02
I d love to talk about my results and Jason s results on the quiz and discuss the timing for things based on our results, because there s no point in going over every chronotype and the results for every chronotype.
2
SPEAKER_02
People can take the test and figure those out on their own.
2
SPEAKER_02
So we figured out our chronotypes.
2
SPEAKER_02
I took the test.
2
SPEAKER_02
I happen to be a lion, and I would love to know how that affects my exercise, relationships, sleep, and eating.
2
SPEAKER_03
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_03
So first of all, let s talk about lions in general, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
So lions in general are, like I said before, they re like my COOs.
2
SPEAKER_03
These are the people that like to get up early and like to kind of get themselves going.
2
SPEAKER_03
They have a tendency to wake up a lot earlier than other people do and have a tendency to go to bed a little bit earlier than most people do, unless they really try to push themselves or use caffeine or something along those lines.
2
SPEAKER_03
Tell me what you want to know about being a lion.
2
SPEAKER_03
I can give you a daily schedule.
2
SPEAKER_03
I can tell you when you re going to be your most creative.
2
SPEAKER_03
I can tell you when to have the best sex.
2
SPEAKER_03
What are you thinking?
2
SPEAKER_03
When to have that cheeseburger?
2
SPEAKER_03
What time do you usually wake up?
2
SPEAKER_03
I wake up around seven.
2
SPEAKER_03
So you re late for a lion, which is impressive.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s okay.
2
SPEAKER_03
I ve got lions who do all kinds of funky stuff.
2
SPEAKER_03
Usually my lions are the ones who are getting up around five, 36 o clock.
2
SPEAKER_03
They re having a fairly early breakfast.
2
SPEAKER_03
With them, you re looking for a high-protein, low-carbohydrate breakfast, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
So you re looking at, you know, an egg white omelet with avocado or, you know, a smoothie, a high-protein smoothie, something like that.
2
SPEAKER_03
You really want to avoid carbohydrates early in the morning, especially if you re a night owl, because carbohydrates equal sleep.
2
SPEAKER_03
There s a lot of data to show that loading up on carbs can in fact have a pretty big effect on sleep.
2
SPEAKER_03
But for lions, you re going to be much better with a higher good fat and higher protein because that s going to kind of get your energy going.
2
SPEAKER_03
Between like six and seven, if you were to get up earlier, that s where we see big picture conceptualizing going on.
2
SPEAKER_03
So that s when you should be like thinking through the big picture things of your day.
2
SPEAKER_03
You re going to find yourself to actually be fairly creative earlier in the morning,
2
SPEAKER_03
But not creativity that requires detail, but creativity that requires big ideas.
2
SPEAKER_03
And the reason is, is you just got out of your biggest lump of REM sleep.
2
SPEAKER_03
So one of the things we know is very late in the night is when you have a tendency to have the bulk of your REM sleep.
2
SPEAKER_03
Remember, REM sleep is where you move information from your short-term memory to your long-term memory.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so when you make those internal neurosynaptic connections, you can solve problems better.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so when you wake up, you re going to be at some of your most creative time.
2
SPEAKER_03
Leverage that creativity for yourself to be able to kind of think through that.
2
SPEAKER_03
Believe it or not, between 7 and 7.30 is the best time for lions to have sex.
2
SPEAKER_03
There s a couple of different reasons why, but let s talk about sex for just a second.
2
SPEAKER_03
Most people have sex at around 11.30 at night, okay?
2
SPEAKER_03
Now, what are the hormones that you need to have sex?
2
SPEAKER_03
You need testosterone, progesterone, estrogen, adrenaline, and cortisol, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
You want all those to be high, and you want melatonin to be low.
2
SPEAKER_03
So, what do you think happens at 11.30 at night?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, melatonin, is that higher?
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, that s sleepy time.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s sleep time, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_03
All of the things that need to be high are low, and all the things that are low need to be high.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so it s kind of interesting.
2
SPEAKER_03
So why on earth do people have sex at 11 o clock at night?
2
SPEAKER_03
Purely for convenience.
2
SPEAKER_03
So there s actually data to show that 73% of the time that you re having sex, you re having it because your person that you usually have sex with happens to be lying next to you.
2
SPEAKER_03
They re not wearing a whole lot of clothes.
2
SPEAKER_03
You re like, hey, are you interested?
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, sure, why not?
2
SPEAKER_03
Go ahead, there you go, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
That s not the type of sex from a performance standpoint that you re probably looking for, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
That s not really where the super amorous, desirous, you know, performance-based sex
3
SPEAKER_01
is going to happen.
3
SPEAKER_01
However, if you had sex at 7 30 in the morning, right, let s say Saturday morning, you wake your bed partner up, you re going to be pleasantly surprised not only at their performance, but also at your performance, because again, all of the hormones are going to be kicking it in right exactly when you need them.
3
SPEAKER_01
Then after you ve had sex in the morning, then you want to take a cool shower.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not a hot shower, not a warm shower, but a cool shower.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay?
3
SPEAKER_01
There s also data to show that elevated water temperature can in fact, like if you take a hot shower, a hot bath can make you feel sleepy.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you want to take a cool, not ice cold shower, but a cool shower.
3
SPEAKER_01
One of the things I often tell my patients to do is to actually meditate in the shower.
3
SPEAKER_01
So this is gonna sound like a crazy thing to do, but it s a hack that I use, and I use it all the time.
3
SPEAKER_01
So face the spigot, the shower head, and have it hit you square in the forehead, almost to the point where it s hard to breathe, where you have to open up your mouth to breathe, and you can only then focus on your breathing.
3
SPEAKER_01
You can t think of anything else.
3
SPEAKER_01
You do that for one minute, and when you step back, you are completely zen zoned in.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s really interesting, and I like the idea that it s gotta be cool and not ice cold, because there s this trend among the biohack entrepreneur community where it s just gotta be ridiculously uncomfortable to do the job.
3
SPEAKER_01
No, and I m all about comfort, dude.
3
SPEAKER_01
So for me, I m not going ice diving and doing all that kind of crazy stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve seen some of the data, it s interesting, but it s not for everyday use.
3
SPEAKER_01
Then around nine o clock, I m having people have about a 250 calorie snack,
3
SPEAKER_01
This is kind of like if you have a breakfast meeting or something like that, you want to keep it to 250 calories because you don t want to kind of overload yourself too early in the morning.
3
SPEAKER_01
Then between 10 and 12 for Lions, that s when you re going to do your personal interactions, your strategic problem solving, things like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
12 to 1 is where you re going to be lunching it.
3
SPEAKER_01
One of the things I ask people to do at right around 1 o clock is go outside.
3
SPEAKER_01
So why on earth would we do that?
3
SPEAKER_01
Sunlight resets that circadian rhythm.
3
SPEAKER_01
So the more sunlight that you can get earlier in the day, the better it s going to be for you in the evenings.
3
SPEAKER_01
Then from one to five, this is your creative thinking time.
3
SPEAKER_01
Again, like you noticed, there s times where you re just kind of from a performance standpoint, you kind of kick it back down.
3
SPEAKER_01
But this is a great time to brainstorm.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is a great time to be creative.
3
SPEAKER_01
So don t worry about the detail stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
worry about the, where are we going with the show?
3
SPEAKER_01
Where am I going with my products?
3
SPEAKER_01
Where am I going with this, with that, the other?
3
SPEAKER_01
Those are the times where you can actually be very, very creative and get some good brainstorming done.
3
SPEAKER_01
By five o clock, you re done from a work perspective.
3
SPEAKER_01
But this is actually a really interesting time to exercise.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, in most of the biohacking literature, people are exercising at some god-awful hour in the morning.
3
SPEAKER_02
No way, not me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not you?
3
SPEAKER_02
Good.
3
SPEAKER_02
When I get up, it s not like, oh, I m too tired to do this.
3
SPEAKER_02
I just, when I go to the gym at that hour, I m not really able to put forth all the strength I need, and also,
3
SPEAKER_02
It kind of hurts more in this weird way where I m not warmed up.
3
SPEAKER_02
I don t like it.
3
SPEAKER_01
So first of all, you ve hit on multiple things that we talk about in the book.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you actually do have a different pain tolerance as you go throughout the day.
3
SPEAKER_01
It hurts worse in the morning for multiple reasons.
3
SPEAKER_01
Number one, your muscles aren t warmed up.
3
SPEAKER_01
Number two, your tendons aren t stretched out.
3
SPEAKER_01
Number three, you have a far higher proclivity for injury earlier in the morning, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
And so for you as a lion, I m gonna tell you, hey, I want you to exercise like between five and six or five and seven.
3
SPEAKER_01
Number one, it ll actually give you energy to help push you a little bit later in the day.
3
SPEAKER_01
So since you may exercise later in the day, you may have already figured this out because you re actually able to stay up a little bit later.
3
SPEAKER_01
For a lot of my lions, this is a super easy hack.
3
SPEAKER_01
So get them through 8.30, nine o clock, because usually they re so exhausted at that time, but that exercise can give them that level of energy.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then you re gonna have dinner right around seven-ish, having a little bit more carbohydrates at that point, again, to help with sleep.
3
SPEAKER_01
7.30 is last call for alcohol.
3
SPEAKER_01
You really don t wanna be drinking too late at night.
3
SPEAKER_01
I am not a person that says you can t drink, all right?
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t mind having a beer, a scotch, a glass of wine, what have you.
3
SPEAKER_01
But remember, there s a big difference between going to sleep and passing out.
3
SPEAKER_01
And people need to appreciate that.
3
SPEAKER_01
It takes the human body approximately one hour per alcoholic beverage to metabolize and digest that through.
3
SPEAKER_01
So what you want to be able to do is drink your alcohol when it will be effective for you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Believe it or not, if you drink alcohol between five and seven in the afternoon, you get more energy than you get sleepy.
3
SPEAKER_01
And this is where happy hours came from.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
I never even thought about that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so that s happy hour, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because that s when alcohol is affecting you and giving you energy, making you have fun and talk a lot louder and blah, blah, blah, as opposed to kind of zoning you out and keeping you kind of down.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then hopefully you re in bed by around 10 o clock, if you can make it that long, as a lion.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I can definitely make it that long, but here s the thing, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
I end up doing dumb crap late at night.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m not getting anything remotely productive done.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m watching Vice News, I m playing Candy Crush while I listen to a show, a podcast, or something like that, and my partner, Jenny, right, she s loving the show.
3
SPEAKER_02
She s coding a website or something, and I m like, how are you doing that at 11?
3
SPEAKER_02
So is she a wolf?
3
SPEAKER_02
I didn t have her take the results but I m going to and I guarantee you she s a wolf because she s always she likes to go to bed at the same time with me but then she s like I couldn t sleep till 1 30 and then she s getting up at 8 39 o clock and she s like oh I feel like I m so behind because she s trying to just smosh her schedule into my schedule and it s not working for her at
3
SPEAKER_02
all, so now I try to get up quietly, let her sleep in, and if she can t sleep at the same time, she stays on the couch for a little bit, but then the problem is she ends up not wanting to disturb me, so she s sleeping on the couch, so we have to kind of like have this realization, this sort of meeting here where it s like, look, it s fine, just come to bed whenever, don t sleep on the couch, because then I go downstairs to take Chinese at 8 a.m.
3
SPEAKER_02
and she s sleeping.
3
SPEAKER_02
in the room where I m doing this.
3
SPEAKER_02
So it s really a weird mismatch, but it seems like it s fine as long as you re aware that it s normal and it s not one person s dysfunctional and the other person s the one who s got the quote-unquote normal sleep schedule, because it s really easy to look at her for her and me and go, well, you need to fix this.
3
SPEAKER_02
But maybe there s nothing broken.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you re exactly right.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so one of the things we re finding since the publication of the book is so many couples have been emailing me and they re saying, finally, somebody who understands us.
3
SPEAKER_01
right, which is very interesting, because you two have opposing chronotypes, and that doesn t mean that one person is healthy and one person is unhealthy.
3
SPEAKER_01
It means your genetics are different.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, this isn t something I made up.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is based on the PER3 gene.
3
SPEAKER_01
I wouldn t be surprised if soon 23andMe has a way for us to be able to look at this genetically speaking to understand what s going on.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of funny because somebody once told me you should create a quiz for match.com, right, when you re out there, you know, looking for your bed partner.
3
SPEAKER_01
Obviously you re looking for different things.
3
SPEAKER_01
And one of the things that you should be thinking about is like, what time do you go to bed?
3
SPEAKER_01
And what time do you wake up?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because that can actually have a pretty big effect on your relationship.
3
SPEAKER_01
But people are using the book now to educate themselves and understand themselves.
3
SPEAKER_01
My guess is you ve probably figured out there are certain times of day where you can talk to her about certain things.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then there are other times of day where it s just like, it s just not going to work.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right, absolutely, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
If I talk to her about something later at night, she s fine diving into her email at 11 p.m.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m dead at that point.
3
SPEAKER_02
I am less than useless.
3
SPEAKER_02
I tried to read late last night because I was waiting for something, and I couldn t even string the sentences together, and I thought, God, this book is so complicated, and then I woke up this morning, and I had some time before my Chinese lesson, and I plowed through three chapters and thought, what was my problem yesterday?
3
SPEAKER_02
And the problem was my brain was shut off or whatever,
3
SPEAKER_01
That s exactly right.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s exactly right.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, there are times where it s better to present new information to your brain than it is to her brain.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s the whole point of the book is it s really about education and understanding your internal clock or your internal timing.
3
SPEAKER_01
You will be shocked at once you to like have her take the quiz.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m sure she s a wolf and start reading the book.
3
SPEAKER_01
You d be shocked at how many things that you ll both learn about each other and it can be very helpful for the relationship.
3
SPEAKER_02
Jason, though, you had different results that didn t seem to match your lifestyle, and I wanna talk about that because I think a lot of people who take this test are gonna go, what, this isn t me, and maybe there s some questions that they didn t do correctly, or maybe there s other lifestyle factors that are influencing the way that this turned out versus the way that they naturally are.
3
SPEAKER_02
Of course, Jason, you wanna tell Dr. Bruce what you got?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so I came out as a bear, and I m generally up between four and five a.m.
3
SPEAKER_00
and I do most of my big work first thing in the morning, get the dog taken care of, read the newspaper, start writing, knock my coffee out, knock my breakfast out, high-protein breakfast, I always have an omelet for breakfast.
3
SPEAKER_00
By like around nine o clock when everybody s starting to come in for the day, I ve got most of the bulk of my work done, chill, get everything done, and then at noon every day, I take a 20-minute nap.
3
SPEAKER_00
and then have lunch and then finish the rest of the day.
3
SPEAKER_00
But most of my creative work s done in the morning, first thing when I get up.
3
SPEAKER_00
Between nine and 10, I m out like a light.
3
SPEAKER_00
I actually take magnesium before I go to bed because I found that just keeps me out all night long.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then back at it at four and five, but it gave me bear.
3
SPEAKER_00
It sounds like Jordan and I almost got interchangeable results based on his schedule.
3
SPEAKER_01
So okay, so this is perfect.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m glad you bring this up because you re absolutely right, Jordan.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not everybody agrees with the quiz results, and that s important for us to discuss.
3
SPEAKER_01
So number one, it s not so easy to create 35 questions that are going to nail everybody.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that has some challenges in and of itself.
3
SPEAKER_01
But number two, I think you actually do fall into the category more
3
SPEAKER_01
of a lion, but you re still within the bear world, and here s why.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because you re able to wake up and stay going till 10 o clock at night, and so that s a hallmark sign of a bear, number one.
4
SPEAKER_00
What you do, though, is you don t seem to need a tremendous amount of sleep, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
So you re sleeping from 10 to 4.30-ish, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Is that about right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, about that.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you only need six and a half hours of sleep.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I also still take a nap during the day every day.
4
SPEAKER_00
For 20 minutes, you said, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, anywhere between 20 and 40, depending on the day and the stress.
4
SPEAKER_00
So one of the things that we ve seen happen is people become hybrids.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so remember, 50% of people are bears.
4
SPEAKER_00
So there s a large number of bears.
4
SPEAKER_00
And this is really a spectrum.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I want you to think of it like this.
4
SPEAKER_00
We ve got lions over here to the left.
4
SPEAKER_00
You kind of move into bear world, and then you move into wolf world.
4
SPEAKER_00
Dolphins kind of fall into a whole really separate category.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so what could be is that you re a bear that s leaning more towards lionesque, number one.
4
SPEAKER_00
Number two, you just don t need that much sleep.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, and so my guess is is if you trained yourself to stay up a little bit later Then you would sleep a little bit later, but you probably like getting up that early number one.
4
SPEAKER_00
Nobody s bothering you.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s nice and quiet You can kind of get your shit done and you ll be surprised of course at how productive you are My guess is is you re actually probably on the borderline between bear and lion and you re actually taking both of those Categories and characteristics to your advantage.
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay, that sounds good.
4
SPEAKER_01
I
4
SPEAKER_01
Nobody goes through Myers-Briggs and says, wow, this is 100% correct.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t have anything else to add to this.
4
SPEAKER_01
I do have the question, though, what about things like adrenal fatigue, which is something, one, most people have never heard of.
4
SPEAKER_01
I hadn t heard of it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I ll tell you, my friend Evan Brand, he s a health coach, and he was like, man, you re one productive dude.
4
SPEAKER_01
I d love to find out what your hormones look like because you must just have crazy levels.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I thought, oh yeah, I m gonna pat myself on the back by how awesome this is.
4
SPEAKER_01
So he sends me this spit test.
4
SPEAKER_01
and if anybody wants to do this, I m happy to refer you over to him, it s very reasonably priced.
4
SPEAKER_01
He sends me this spit test, I spit in some tubes and freeze them, I mail them over to him, whatever, and he goes, here s your hormone levels, this lab takes them, and my cortisol s way down, even at like 11 a.m., and it was this sort of interesting setup, and I thought, oh good, that s a stress hormone, and that s way down, oh, I m not stressed out at all, this is really great.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then he goes, no, no, no, what this is, is you re burning through all of your cortisol so early in the day that you re just,
4
SPEAKER_01
running on fumes by 3, 4 p.m., which actually made a lot of sense at the time.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it turned out, I had to take a gut panel, I had some candida going on, I had to kill that stuff.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, a lot of people have this.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was kind of a game changer for me in a lot of ways.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t necessarily feel totally different.
4
SPEAKER_01
As tired as I might feel, I don t feel frazzled and burned out at both ends and unable to continue like I used to as well by the time I m hit in the evening.
4
SPEAKER_01
So how does adrenal,
4
SPEAKER_01
fatigue figure into this because that obviously is chewing through the fuel that you re getting no matter where you are at your sleep cycle.
4
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it turns out that a lot of my dolphins have significant adrenal fatigue because their cortisol, you re right, is it blasts them up in the morning.
4
SPEAKER_00
and then they burn through all of it, and then all of a sudden their body has to take time to rejuvenate it, and then guess what?
4
SPEAKER_00
Their cortisol jacks at night, and they have a hard time sleeping.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s pretty interesting, but people with adrenal fatigue, depending upon the stage of adrenal fatigue that you re in, remember you can have early, mid, and then like super duper, called the paramedics, Addison s disease type of stuff.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it depends on where you are in the stages of adrenal fatigue, but absolutely we see a lot of dolphins having adrenal fatigue.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you know, when you talk about cortisol, cortisol is a very interesting hormone because remember cortisol is the fight or flight hormone.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s the thing that kind of along with the general adrenaline, if you re in a bad situation, it s going to help get you out of there.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, what s fascinating is you are required to have cortisol and adrenaline to pull your body out of a state of unconsciousness.
4
SPEAKER_00
Cortisol and adrenaline actually wake you up in the morning.
4
SPEAKER_00
They pull you out of REM sleep.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so it s kind of interesting when you start to look at
4
SPEAKER_00
some of those areas of complication, cortisol naturally begins to drop about 90 minutes after you wake up.
4
SPEAKER_00
Now, here s where one of my chapters might fall into play for people, and it has to do with caffeine.
4
SPEAKER_00
So, for people who are out there, the worst thing that they could possibly do is be drinking coffee as their first liquid of the morning.
4
SPEAKER_00
Why is this?
4
SPEAKER_00
So a couple reasons.
4
SPEAKER_00
Number one is, most people don t realize this, but while you are sleeping, you breathe out in the humidity in the air that you breathe out, you breathe out almost a liter of water every night.
4
SPEAKER_01
Sure, that makes sense.
4
SPEAKER_01
So then you re drinking this diuretic first thing in the morning.
4
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
And pissing out all your water that you got left.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s really not a good idea to do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Number two, so the first thing I ask people to do is to drink eight to 12 ounces of room temperature water.
4
SPEAKER_00
And by the way, you should do that standing in front of a window getting direct sunlight.
4
SPEAKER_00
Do me a favor, all you people out there, put on a robe before you do this.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, depending on how close your neighbors live to you.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_00
Probably a good idea.
4
SPEAKER_00
The sunlight acts as a much bigger stimulus and actually turns off the melatonin faucet.
4
SPEAKER_00
The water rehydrates you and it will actually give you far more energy than caffeine ever would.
4
SPEAKER_00
Then when you wait for your cortisol to drop about 90 minutes later, adding caffeine then actually will naturally lift your cortisol and give you a little bit more energy.
4
SPEAKER_00
So by waiting just 90 minutes to have your first cup of coffee, you ll be pleasantly surprised.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, this is a really good point because a lot of us still have to do this, and I put that in air quotes, but a lot of us have to do this because if you re a bear and you re getting up at 7.30 because you gotta go commute to work, you kinda need that weird jumpstart because the schedule of the working world gives your sleep schedule, your chronotype, the bird, and you just gotta deal with it, and the way that you do is you just,
4
SPEAKER_01
run hard into every morning with a bunch of caffeine.
4
SPEAKER_00
Now we re seeing employers asking me to chronotype an entire division of their workforce to learn when should they be having meetings for different chronotypes, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Because when should they be having the coffee break, things like that.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I know you re friendly with Dave Asprey, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yep, it was on Bulletproof like yesterday.
4
SPEAKER_00
Dave actually is so in love with chronotypes.
4
SPEAKER_00
He actually has had me now chronotype his entire organization.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so what we re looking at doing is trying to figure out when would be the best times to do brainstorming meetings with his creative group and when is the best time to do logistics with his logistics group.
4
SPEAKER_00
What we re going to slowly start to find is we re going to get people even more and more productive at the right times.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s pretty cool stuff.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think that s super important.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now with everybody telecommuting and a lot of Silicon Valley startups and stuff like that, even the diehard ones where I know people are working at Apple and stuff like that, depending on what department they re in, they don t have to be there till 9.30, 10 o clock.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s not just because, oh, we have a slide in our office, we re cool about it.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s because at some level, the guys who started building computers in the garage realized, look, I don t want to get up early and do this.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s not just because we re lazy, it s because we want to be firing on all cylinders for 12 hours and we can t do that if we ve got to get up and fight rush hour traffic and show up and spend the first four hours of the day freaking waking up.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh dude, you re preaching to the choir.
4
SPEAKER_01
We need our engineers working hard.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it s something that s slowly making its way into the psyche of the working world, but it s gonna take a long time before Ford and General Motors are saying, sure, show up at 9.30 because, you know, we are bare.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s gonna take a minute.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I think if you run an organization or you just wanna figure out why your own behavior is a certain way, this test is actually quite helpful.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think it s probably really good when you have your partner take it and when you have your kids take it
4
SPEAKER_01
and you start to realize that just because somebody s not getting up at 5 a.m.
4
SPEAKER_01
with you and is staying up late, it s not because they re irresponsible, it s because that s the way their friggin  rhythm works, at least for now.
4
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
I love it.
4
SPEAKER_01
I couldn t have said it better myself.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now, is it possible to change your chronotype, or is that just pure biology?
4
SPEAKER_01
As a kid, sure, I was probably more bear than lion, but are there things I can do to change it?
4
SPEAKER_01
I guess what I m asking is, oh crap, I work in Ohio at a company that doesn t give a rats you know what about my chronotype.
4
SPEAKER_01
What am I gonna do?
4
SPEAKER_01
How do I deal with this?
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so there s an entire section in my book on how to hack your chronotype.
4
SPEAKER_00
But remember, like we were saying before, Mother Nature s a bitch, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
And so when you ve got a genetic situation going on, you re literally fighting your own genetics here.
4
SPEAKER_00
So there s only so much you can do.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m never going to take a wolf and turn them into a lion.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s not going to happen.
4
SPEAKER_00
I can take a wolf and move them more into bear territory, or I can take a lion and move them more into bear territory, or even a bear and move them more into lion territory.
4
SPEAKER_00
It really just depends on three different factors.
4
SPEAKER_00
One is motivation, two is light exposure, and three is melatonin.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I can actually craft a way to actually change your circadian rhythm, but here s the catch, you gotta do it every single day.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you re trying to hack your chrono rhythm, you re literally going against your biology.
4
SPEAKER_00
And my personal theory is don t go against your biology.
4
SPEAKER_00
Talk with your boss and explain this whole situation to them and say, let s run the experiment, you know, just like I did with my patient.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s kind of what started all of this.
4
SPEAKER_00
And here s the thing that bosses are generally like this is if you show them a way that you can actually be more productive, that s good for them.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so, if you can show them how that kind of thing could work, just by saying, let s run the experiment for a week or two.
4
SPEAKER_00
I heard this really cool podcast called The Art of Charm, and I learned all about this Dr. Bruce, and he showed me this kind of cool thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
You might be very surprised at your boss being willing to allow you to change your schedule a little bit.
4
SPEAKER_01
I understand the hacking thing has to be every day.
4
SPEAKER_01
It just seems like the same thing as working the night shift.
4
SPEAKER_01
You don t work the night shift five days a week.
5
SPEAKER_00
and then go, well, cool, I m gonna have a normal weekend, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
Because you re just messing up everything.
5
SPEAKER_00
They do try, and that s probably one of the reasons it s so bad for you, and of course, additionally, because nobody s chronotype is stay up all night, sleep all day.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s not a human species thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
However, to adjust it two or three hours from waking up at eight and being optimal to waking up at six and getting to work on time, that s something you could nudge in the right direction, but of course, ideally, you just let your body do the talking and make the decision.
5
SPEAKER_02
Absolutely, I mean, I can tell you right now, I take light boxes.
5
SPEAKER_02
So these are commercially available light boxes.
5
SPEAKER_02
You can go on Amazon.
5
SPEAKER_02
The one I happen to personally like, Philips makes one called the Go Light, G-O-L-I-T-E.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think it runs around 150, 200 bucks.
5
SPEAKER_01
I ve got one of those.
5
SPEAKER_01
They re fantastic.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
Aren t they amazing, dude?
5
SPEAKER_01
They re fantastic.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they re absolutely fantastic.
5
SPEAKER_01
When I get up at four in the morning, that s the first thing I turn on.
5
SPEAKER_02
So, okay, so now you just let slip a big hint about why.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, there we go.
5
SPEAKER_02
So now I know why the quiz isn t working so well on you, dude, because you re hacking your chronotype early in the morning and you re using it in a progressive way.
5
SPEAKER_02
You got to admit now you are hacking your chronotype.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, I also did used to work in my 20s.
5
SPEAKER_01
I worked overnight shifts for two and a half, three years working from basically 11 o clock to seven o clock in the morning.
5
SPEAKER_01
So then I was a programmer for 22 years.
5
SPEAKER_01
I d probably have never had a normal schedule, but, um,
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and now I have a dog and the dog is what got me on the four o clock thing that hasn t happened for months But I found out a four o clock in the morning.
5
SPEAKER_01
I work much better So yeah, but I wanted to ask you how age because you were talking about how teenagers have their own set of hormonal issues with sleep What are the age breakdowns because I m 45 now Jordan s young bucket is 30.
5
SPEAKER_01
So we ve got you know, I
5
SPEAKER_01
We ve got a 10-year difference, I think, between us, so it d be interesting to know where those age breakdowns happen.
5
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
5
SPEAKER_02
So, I actually have an entire chapter on this in my book, where we take a look at what is the timing in terms of, and I call it chronolongevity.
5
SPEAKER_02
And so, a couple things to think about.
5
SPEAKER_02
So, teenagers are the obvious one.
5
SPEAKER_02
Teenagers are usually wolves.
5
SPEAKER_02
Once you hit about 18 to 20, from about 20 to about 40, your chronotype stays fairly stable.
5
SPEAKER_02
But once you kind of go past 40-ish,
5
SPEAKER_02
maybe even longer, once you start to get into your 50s.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m 48 years old, and I m starting to notice that you start to move earlier.
5
SPEAKER_02
If you ever talk to your grandma or your grandpa, what s going on?
5
SPEAKER_02
They re going to bed early, they re waking up early.
5
SPEAKER_02
So people have a tendency to move towards a lion as they get older, or a dolphin because they become more medically complicated, right?
5
SPEAKER_02
And so when you add things like prescription medications, like high blood pressure medication, and all the different medications, arthritis, blah, blah, blah,
5
SPEAKER_02
all of those things can actually have an effect on your circadian rhythm.
5
SPEAKER_02
And so that can actually change you and make you more dolphin-esque, if you will.
5
SPEAKER_02
So we see a lock and load of your chronotype, you know, kind of in the middle part of your life, again, probably around age 20, 22, on up to maybe 40, 45, 50.
5
SPEAKER_02
And then after you hit that range, then you start to move earlier, again, into either lion or dolphin territory.
5
SPEAKER_01
By the time I hit 50, I don t even know what s gonna happen.
5
SPEAKER_01
45 now, I keep shifting.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, by the time you hit 50, you re gonna call me up, and Jason, I m gonna make sure that I fix your sleep so that you can lock and load in a good way.
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay, that ll work.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because otherwise, I m gonna just keep going backwards through the cycle.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, there is a really weird sleep disorder called non-24 sleep disorder, and this is where their internal biological clock is completely whacked out.
5
SPEAKER_02
They don t know when to sleep and when to wake up.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s a real mess.
5
SPEAKER_02
That sounds like torture.
5
SPEAKER_02
It is.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s terrible.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think that that might actually be me because my main sleep schedule is based on when we have to record a show.
5
SPEAKER_01
So.
5
SPEAKER_02
Don t worry Jason, we ll work on you later.
5
SPEAKER_00
Luckily, it s obvious on my sleep schedule, which is early morning for me, which is middle of morning for you, because he s in a different time zone, and early afternoon.
5
SPEAKER_00
It could be worse.
5
SPEAKER_00
I could be a night owl.
5
SPEAKER_00
Then you would be screwed.
5
SPEAKER_02
But I think it s fascinating, Jason, that you figured out how to use light therapy.
5
SPEAKER_02
And back to the idea of hacking your chronotype, that s definitely one of the things that I would do is using light therapy.
5
SPEAKER_02
And you want to look at a very specific wavelength of light.
5
SPEAKER_02
Between 450 and 480 nanometers is really where the blue
5
SPEAKER_02
light focuses in, and we know that there are certain cells in our eye called melanopsin cells, and these react very distinctly to that wavelength, sending a signal to the brain to turn off the melatonin faucet.
5
SPEAKER_02
So for those of you who are trying to get more morning-oriented, one of the best things I can recommend is not coffee, it s blue light.
5
SPEAKER_01
And my blue light is in my kitchen.
5
SPEAKER_01
So when I go down to, to read the newspaper and feed the dog, it s the first thing that turns on and I have it set for half an hour and it just floods my kitchen with blue light.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that s kind of, kind of my coffee.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s exactly right, dude.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s exactly how you would do it now.
5
SPEAKER_02
Also, I ll tell everybody out there, there s a really cool company that has specialty light bulbs.
5
SPEAKER_02
that you can have in your bedside table lamp that has a filter, so it filters out the blue light, so it doesn t affect you at night.
5
SPEAKER_02
If anybody s interested, it s called Lighting Science Group.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think the website is lighting.science.
5
SPEAKER_02
I have these in my bedside table lamp, and then I also have in my bathroom, I have these things called awake and alert bulbs, because one of the first things I do when I wake up is I go to the bathroom, I do my hygiene, and I have these awake and alert bulbs going, and it s literally like having a cup of coffee.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s great.
5
SPEAKER_00
Say I want to get up a little earlier and lean into my lion a little bit.
5
SPEAKER_00
Should I grab a go light and then just wake up and feel like, ugh, why me, and then flip that thing on next to my bed?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, absolutely.
5
SPEAKER_02
But you re gonna piss off your bed partner, so I d do it in another room, because you re gonna flood the room.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I m gonna have to roll out of bed.
5
SPEAKER_00
and just know that eventually all will be okay.
5
SPEAKER_00
Maybe go in my studio and turn on a couple of these things and just absorb the blue light while, I don t know, meditating or something like that and just let it do its thing.
5
SPEAKER_02
I was just at CES, the Consumer Electronics Show, and I was there for a week looking at sleep technology and they are now making glasses where there s an under rim and it s all blue light shining directly into your eyeballs.
5
SPEAKER_02
Be on the lookout for those, because that could be something that could be helpful as well.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right, so it s the opposite of blue blockers, which I wear at night to try to get to bed early.
5
SPEAKER_02
And you know what, I m a big fan of blue blockers, by the way.
5
SPEAKER_02
I use Swanee s.
5
SPEAKER_00
Swanee s, that s what I got.
5
SPEAKER_00
I got Swanee s from my friend James Swanwick.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, so I ve got Swanee s, and I love them.
5
SPEAKER_02
And it was really interesting because, you know, look, I ve been a sleep doctor and a sleep scientist for 17 years.
5
SPEAKER_02
You know, I ve heard about blue blockers, blah, blah, blah.
5
SPEAKER_02
But, you know, I met this guy, James Swanwick, and he was like, hey, I want to give you a pair of these blue blockers, and I want you to see if they work for you.
5
SPEAKER_02
I was surprised at the amount of eye strain it relieved and just the mellowness that I feel at night wearing these things.
5
SPEAKER_02
I put them on, like, right around after dinner or, you know, before I start watching TV.
5
SPEAKER_02
My kids think I look ridiculous.
5
SPEAKER_02
I would tell you this.
5
SPEAKER_02
Juanis are the only ones I found that actually look halfway decent.
5
SPEAKER_00
They do, they look cool.
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I like the way that I look in these things.
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And you re right, the eye strain level, I didn t notice it until I went on a trip.
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I d forgotten the blue blockers that were next to my bed, because I take them off before I go to sleep.
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And I just remember at night being cranky and tired and thinking like, ugh.
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And I realized as soon as I got them back at home, I thought, you literally feel a sense of relief putting these things on.
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You re just not meant to look at blue light at 11 freaking p.m.
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And here s the other thing is, you know, how many people are, you know, watching Game of Thrones on their iPad or checking their Facebook on their phone?
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And, you know, you got a proximity issue, right?
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You know, it s one thing to have a television across the room.
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I mean, I fall asleep with the TV on every night, okay?
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So I m the only sleep doctor in the universe that probably says it s okay to fall asleep with the TV on.
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But what I don t do is I don t have light within 24 inches of my face, right?
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There s a big difference between having it, you know, 10, 12 yards across the room versus, you know, 24 inches.
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Right, exactly.
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Well, thank you so much for coming on today.
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This has been super enlightening, no pun intended.
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Anything we can do to gain awareness of our own biology, our own psychology, this of course wraps them both into one, and it doesn t require some kind of crazy cryo chamber to take advantage of this.
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It seems like it s 75% awareness.
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and then some little tweaks if you even need them, one of which is cutting out coffee.
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Not that big of a deal.
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I just got a blue light coming.
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I m not cutting out coffee completely.
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Right, just drinking at a different time.
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Exactly.
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Unless you can t get over it, and that s a different problem.
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That s a different show.
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Your caffeine addiction is a different show.
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Absolutely.
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Well, no, only thing I would say to people is go and take the quiz.
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It s free.
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You ll get your results for free.
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It s not a big deal, and you ll learn a whole lot about yourself.
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If you re so inclined, check out the book.
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You can find it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, all those kind of places.
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It s called The Power of When.
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Exactly, and we ll link to that in the show notes as well.
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Thank you very much.
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This has been a blast.
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Thank you for having me.
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I appreciate it.
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Great big thanks to Dr. Michael Bruce.
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The book is called The Power of When.
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Of course, that will be linked up in the show notes for this episode, along with the quiz.
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The chronotype thing is really interesting, Jason.
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I mean, of course everybody has different sleep patterns.
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I just didn t realize that there were four different groups that show up everywhere, and that it actually mattered.
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I just thought some people are bad in the morning, and some people are better at night, and that s the end of it.
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And now I gotta go work out my throat.
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Yeah, now, yeah.
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And there s just so many jokes in there that I m not gonna pull the trigger on.
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But if you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Dr. Bruce on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as all the other resources mentioned on the show, the book, the lights, the quiz, and all that.
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Remember, if you re listening to this on your phone, you can tap your phone screen.
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The show notes should pop right up there.
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I m also on Twitter.
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It s a great place to engage with me and get some insights and banter that s not on the show.
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I m at The Art of Charm.
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on Twitter.
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Boot camps, our live program details, those are at bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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I love seeing people become part of the AOC family.
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The growth they experience over the next few months and years, which is what it s all about, is just a game changer for me, keeps us motivated, and is a life-changing thing for everybody involved.
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So check that out.
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That s bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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And if you just want to dip your toes in the water, join us in the AOC challenge at theartofcharm.com.
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challenge, or you can text the word charmed to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444 if you re in the States.
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The challenge is about improving your networking skills, improving your connection skills, and inspiring relationships for business and personal reasons.
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And we ll also email you our Fundamentals Toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show.
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I also do regular videos with drills and exercises, some practical exercises in there to help you move forward every single week.
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It ll make you a better networker, a better connector, and of course, last but not least, a better thinker.
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That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text the word charmed in the US to 33444.
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For full show notes for this and all previous episodes, head on over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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This episode of AOC was produced by Jason DeFillippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor, and the show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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So stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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And go get some sleep for God s sake.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.