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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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I m here with producer Jason DeFillippo and Susan Winter for this episode of Fan Mail Friday.
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If you re new to the Art of Charm podcast, Fan Mail Friday is not a great place to start.
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Most of our content is more depth and longer format and interview-based.
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So maybe go back and check out another episode or go check out the best of at theartofcharm.com slash best or the fundamentals toolbox at theartofcharm.com slash toolbox.
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That s where we ve got the fundamentals of things like reading body language and charismatic nonverbal communication, the science of attraction, negotiation techniques, networking, influence strategies, persuasion tactics, and everything else that we teach here at the Art of Charm.
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We ll send all that to your inbox if you text the word charmed.
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That s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444 here in the U.S.
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or everywhere else, just go to theartofcharm.com.
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All right, let s cut to it.
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This first one s a doozy, Jay.
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Hello, Jordan.
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Before I dive in, the Relationship Coach episode with Susan Winter has opened my eyes to defining what I want.
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Thank you.
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I m 24 years old, and the woman in my life is 22.
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Earlier this year, I started the quest to begin my career after graduating from university.
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At that point, we had an unplanned pregnancy.
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At the time, I didn t feel I was able to afford a child.
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Her family stated that they would not support the child, and my family lives in a different country, so it would have been left to us.
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Her dreams of travel would have been suspended, and her career start time would have to be delayed.
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We decided on getting an abortion.
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At the time of the procedure, I was sure of the fact that I didn t want the child, but after the procedure, I regretted that I had to make her go through that.
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It is important to note that she agreed to go for it.
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Weeks later, we started becoming distant and arguing about things we typically never do.
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Communication in our relationship before that was open and honest, and later on, she had to move to another province.
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Then she called and said she wanted to travel.
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She chose to go to the opposite end of the world, in Australia and Southeast Asia.
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My takeaway from it was she was escaping from the pain.
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She spent three months partying and drinking.
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She said it helped her to heal.
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Despite the fact that I support her ambitions, I felt devastated because in this pain, I had no support.
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Her parents tried to dismiss the issue with throwing money at it, and I couldn t speak to my support system, which was my family.
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My friends were all one-minded and some said, man, you cannot have that kid.
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Some even asked me to leave her.
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To wrap things up, I got involved with an older woman as a distraction, but it eventually morphed into something deep on the woman s end.
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It is important to mention that I got exposed to a different world, a positive one, but I still want my life with my girlfriend.
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Fast forward to a month ago.
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My girlfriend returned, and I realized I still wanted to be with her.
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Out of respect for her, I told her what happened, because I didn t want to be deceptive.
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At the time, I decided that it was best to be honest to the woman that I love.
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Was this a mistake?
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She didn t take it well.
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She went and started a physical relationship with a guy in her province.
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I suspected it, but had no proof, until she told me, in a bid to be open as I was.
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These events have forced me to get involved in more social activities than usual, which I think is healthy, like martial arts and volunteering.
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Right now we re attempting to bridge things again.
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My questions are as follows.
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Number one, what can we do to build back trust and avoid paranoia?
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It s clear that we re both trying, but is it a futile effort?
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Number two, how do I help her regain her confidence as she is upset with the fact that I cheated on her with an older woman?
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I think it s a technicality, but it seems to be an issue for her.
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Technicality.
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Okay, we ll get to that one.
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3.
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Do we focus on becoming friends again and suspending the physical part of our relationship?
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I say this because I would like to have her in my life regardless of our romantic status.
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4.
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Do I ask to meet this guy and she meets the lady from the summer as a way to establish openness?
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Number five, is it wise to keep the older woman in my life?
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She has a maturity that I can benefit from on a platonic level and my girlfriend can do the same with the guy she met.
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And number six, is it wise to attempt a long distance relationship at this point?
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There is a possibility of her getting a job out of town.
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I would truly appreciate feedback from you.
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Keep doing what you re doing, Jordan, with your AOC team.
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Signed, Max.
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Okay, this is a nuclear disaster area.
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Thank you, somebody said it.
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There are so many questions here.
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Of course, there are six, but let s take them one by one, Susan, because I have, one, they re not even really in the right order, actually, so let s not take them in the order that he gave them, because how do we build back trust and avoid paranoia?
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It s clear that we re both trying.
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Is it a futile effort?
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I kind of want to start from the bottom of this list, if that makes sense.
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because I just feel like he s asking the wrong questions, and there s a lot of little details on each one of these sub-questions.
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So what do you think about this?
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In what order do you want to attack this?
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And what do you think about the long-distance relationship and all this stuff?
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Where do we even begin to clean this up, Susan?
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Jordan, I think you re so on the money.
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I looked at this and I imagined one of those buildings that gets blown up, and then two people are trying to gather each little stone and try and place it back together again.
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So much has happened with this couple.
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You know, this was a big issue.
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She had to terminate a pregnancy.
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They re very young, 22, 24, very, very young.
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I know, I feel that this guy has an over responsibility to the whole thing.
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It was a joint decision.
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I feel that the behavior on the gal s part to go away for three months and party in a continent as far as she could get away from him to heal is not the way you heal.
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So this relationship started to fall apart after that.
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And one of the signs of a good relationship is conflict resolution.
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They went further apart and neither one stayed in the relationship to work on it.
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But when she comes back three months later, she wants to be the girlfriend and oh, he found some kind of solace in another woman s arms.
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It s such a mess.
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I don t think they would still be working on this if it were not for that incident that happened.
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I think the young man feels tremendous guilt.
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And I think he really has to put it in perspective to try and get over all these issues and distance on top of that.
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It s unworkable.
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I agree.
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I don t think it s wise to start any kind of long-distance relationship.
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And I think that s a really interesting point that I had not thought of.
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He s feeling an obligation out of guilt.
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It s not just this person is so great, everything was so great except for this one big, giant, huge, gaping hole.
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This is...
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I feel bad, so I now have this obligation probably put on in part by her family or his family.
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There s a lot of other issues going on here that are not just we feel so strongly for one another, I have to have it.
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There s external pressure.
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That s obviously not the recipe for a long-term relationship.
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Looking at the question, is it wise to keep the older woman in my life, one comment from me, and this is your area of specialty, which is one reason why I wanted you to have access to this question as well, is it just me or do younger guys often write about quote-unquote older women as some kind of accessory?
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Because they re so far apart in age, it s not like, well, this isn t a real, it s always just,
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It seems like this isn t a real relationship.
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This is this older person and they exist on this other plane than they would put a real significant other.
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Is that a pattern that you ve seen?
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It can be.
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I mean, it hasn t been for me, but I think he used the word distraction.
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Yeah.
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When his girlfriend was away, he just got involved with this lady as a distraction.
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The older lady developed feelings.
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That s kind of what we do.
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And now he feels in a quandary.
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But no, you do not keep
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connection with anybody you were sleeping with if you were trying to get back with a partner.
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You keep it very clean.
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And no, you never introduce your mutual lovers to each other.
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Gee, let s all get together.
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Okay, we ve all slept with each other at some point.
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That s not a good idea either.
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He s trying way too hard.
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I think it s guilt.
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I think he realized how significant this
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I think he realized he might want children, not now and maybe not with this gal, but I think it really rocked him.
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And he s feeling so guilty that he s got to try and put these pieces back together any way possible.
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And he s scrambling.
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Look at these issues.
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Every little part that s broken, he s trying desperately to put it back together, including with her self-esteem, which is not his job to do.
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It s a mess.
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I m sorry.
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Now you re absolutely right.
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Great focus on guilt as well.
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That answers the long distance question.
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That answers the do we become friends again?
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Do we rekindle the relationship?
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If it s all based on guilt, which it sounds like it is, the answer is no, no, no, and no.
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And as far as the first and foremost question, which is what can we do to build back trust and avoid paranoia,
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It really doesn t matter because this is not a real relationship.
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It s a guilt.
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It s the side effect of a guilty feeling.
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I just I think his intentions are moral and correct.
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I think he needs to let this one go.
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Satisfy that they both made mistakes.
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A gal who was ready to be a mom wouldn t go out and party and drink and dance in a foreign country for three months to heal herself.
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Neither were ready.
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It happened.
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They handled it properly.
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Now is the time to uncouple and move forward in time, six months.
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want to hang out as friends, maybe, but I wouldn t keep putting together the broken pieces.
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Perfect.
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Jason, I think that says it all.
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Let s move on.
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Jordan, I really enjoyed the content and timeliness of Susan Winters appearance on Episode 571 discussing the triage post breakup and devoured her book on Kindle.
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It struck me since I recently broke up with my girlfriend of nine months after I found out she cheated on me with her ex.
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This all happened three days after my closest uncle passed away, two days before my birthday, and obviously Christmas was right around the corner.
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I should win something for that kind of emotional trifecta.
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Oh man.
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You win a hug, definitely, nothing else.
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My question for Susan et al is how to deal specifically with infidelity, which is an exceptional kick in the nuts and ego.
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It happened with my ex-wife too, and I start to question myself being the common denominator despite being faithful and loving.
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I tried to reset my mindset and think of each as a gift, but cheating flat out sucks.
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I appreciate all that you guys do.
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Keep up the great work.
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Troy from Minneapolis.
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Yikes, yeah, that is quite the emotional trifecta, and you re right, Jason, the kid wins a hug.
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Troy, sorry to hear about all that.
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It s a great question because it s not just dealing with the infidelity at the relationship level, it really is a kick in the nuts, a kick in the ego, it s hard to recover from, and there s the added factor here, Susan, that this happened with his ex-wife, too, and him being the common denominator.
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There s something to this, right?
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Yeah, and he s incredibly evolved and he s taking responsibility.
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You know, we can t dissect this in a couple of paragraphs.
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I really suggest that he gets into therapy and with somebody who will see him on a continual basis, go over each red flag where it went wrong.
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Because I think I, my feeling is it s partner selection, just partner selection.
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We don t want guys to think because you re a good guy and you re faithful and you re devoted.
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that you will become a chump and be used.
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It s something else.
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So what do we think it is?
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I mean, when this happens to the same guy, it s not, what I want to avoid is, oh yeah, you re doing something wrong, you re not worthy of love, because the readout from the guy s perspective, from Troy s perspective, is what s wrong with me?
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And the answer is probably something that,
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Look, it s a common denominator.
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You are the common denominator, Troy, but it s probably not some reflection of you other than your picker is broken and you re filtering in people who are doing.
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I think that might.
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So, again, this is more intuitive, but my my sense is I m guessing there is the likelihood that Troy is a very organized, clean cut,
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effective human being, and maybe he s attracted to women who are more spontaneous, easygoing, go with the flow, a little unpredictable, maybe a little wild.
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Maybe that s his opposite.
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Maybe it s his picker that is inherently choosing gals who will go off the rails, because it s not one, it s two.
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So I m guessing he s somehow attracted to something that that person has that he doesn t possess, which creates the attraction, but is also the deal breaker.
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Right.
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Do you know what some of those things might be that he might be able to self-identify or is it such a wide berth that it s impossible to?
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You know, for me, with just a few sentences, it s really like throwing a dart at the Manhattan phone book and coming up with one name.
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I mean, it s that s why therapy for this guy, I believe it is selection process.
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I don t subscribe to the philosophy that if you re a good guy, this is the outcome.
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See, being faithful, being kind doesn t work.
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Of course, you re going to be cheated on because that s where a lot of guys go in his mind.
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He did everything right.
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I m a faithful guy.
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I did everything right.
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Why did this happen?
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So that s why I think it has to do with something a therapist can bring out.
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a behavior, maybe a selection, I m thinking it s that.
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Perfect, yeah, it seems like the filter, the picker might be broken, but I just want to be very clear that, Troy, when we re talking about you being the common denominator, we re focusing on what you can control, and it s not a reflection of your self-worth or your worthiness as a partner, and I think that s where a lot of people mix these signals up, and it causes emotional damage,
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in areas that really don t need to be tweaked or sprained, right?
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Because it s not something inherently wrong with you other than you ve got a lever or a switch in there that s causing people who do this to anyone that they re involved with to do it to you.
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I agree.
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And that s so important to say, Jordan, thank you, because we always want to keep people feeling good and strong about being in right order with themselves.
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We don t want them to think that now something s wrong with you.
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You were a good guy and see,
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you got used.
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We don t want that.
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Yeah, so the action steps for Troy, I think are look inside yourself and figure out what you re attracting that is the common denominator in the people that you re seeking out, and where do those same types of qualities later on go haywire?
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Where do you see yourself losing control of the situation here?
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I don t mean control over the partner or over the relationship entirely, but where do you see things going off the rails?
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And that will give you the sort of where there s smoke, there s fire type of hint.
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as to what personality traits you re filtering in that are not working out long term.
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Perfect, and even a side-by-side comparison of the two gals.
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Maybe they re the same, like version one and version two of the same thing.
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That s a really good point.
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Right, we can only compare, contrast these two people.
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What do they have in common?
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Maybe one of those factors that overlaps is the factor that s not working in the long term.
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Really, really hard to say because there s too much going on that we can t see, but Troy, hopefully that gives you some clues as to where to start sniffing.
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All right, Jason.
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Hey, Jordan and Susan, my friend Leslie works in NYC and craves attention.
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She comes into problems when she s in a relationship and ends up flirting with other people just to get that attention slash validation.
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So she ends up with negative attention from her partner and positive attention from a stranger, and it causes problems.
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She knows it s going to cause problems, but can t seem to stop herself.
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Help.
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Signed, Asking for a Friend.
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Yeah, asking for a friend, this is a problem, because for me, and Susan, let me know what you think here, this is clearly a need that maybe not is necessarily going unmet from her partner, but that she has a bottomless bucket requirement for, so she tries to get it from other people, and of course that s causing problems in the relationship.
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So it s not just her behavior, it s the fact that she craves this attention in the first place that needs to be addressed.
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That s perfect.
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And she knows that she s doing this and she can t stop.
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So it s almost like an addiction.
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It s what I call the safety game.
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You know, it s cruel.
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It s like having a dog on a leash and showing him a piece of meat.
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He can t get it.
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She likes to flirt and seduce these guys for their attention, but they can t get near her because she s in a relationship.
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So she gets to feel taunting.
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She gets to feel in control.
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But where she s not in control is real life.
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she can t go back to her guy and be that sexy, flirtatious woman where she should be, because that s too real.
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Ah, interesting.
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Right, so there s some sort of, it s almost a defense mechanism.
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It s like, I don t wanna be vulnerable and intimate with you, so I m gonna go play vulnerability, intimate, relationship-y charades with some random person to get that need fulfilled.
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Exactly.
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Wow, so how do we start to attack that?
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I mean, now that we ve identified what might be the problem, what can Leslie do, or what can Leslie s friend tell her that she needs to do in order to start figuring out why this, because this is gonna cause problems forever until it s addressed, period.
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Well, it s kind of funny.
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You ve got the real thing at home, but you re applying all your effort on the outside, so it s a vulnerability issue for her, but it seems just, I mean, if she knows it, she likes it.
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So something in the game is turning her on.
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And I think it s a little bit more complicated than just saying, I m not going to do it anymore.
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I think she s got to really get off the game board and be more honest and real with her guy that she s got at home.
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And that scares her.
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The others are like backup.
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You know, oh, I can always feel good about myself when I go outside and I see these guys all want me.
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I don t know.
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It s a lot of insecurity.
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Jordan, it s a lot to deal with.
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I hope that just realizing it, she can just stop playing the game and just stand in one place and be real, because that s what she needs to do.
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Right.
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It seems like this is going to cut off even the option of having a real, intimate, close relationship with somebody until she gets a handle on it, because if you keep
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This is essentially building a wall and backing off as soon as you get to a certain level of vulnerability, and it s always going to repeat itself.
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It s always going to sabotage where you are until you address it and get it handled.
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Okay, good point.
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I have a negotiation for her.
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Whatever flirtation she does on the outside that day, she s gotta mirror it and do the same thing to her guy.
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So whatever she puts out in the outer world must be done within a 24-hour period to her guy at home.
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We won t start by taking
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it away, we ll start by doubling it.
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Ah, interesting, that s a really good idea.
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It s hard to break a habit from scratch, right, and not do anything like that, because then the need goes unmet.
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So if we double the fulfillment of the order, so to speak, then eventually she can start to shift it from random strangers at the clothing store to the person that she s with after she finds out that she doesn t get bitten when she does it.
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Yeah, brilliant, I love it.
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Thank you, good, I think that s good.
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All right, let s hear from Linda.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hi Jordan, I finished listening to your latest podcast with Susan Winter today.
2
SPEAKER_01
She mentioned near the beginning something about how we should have relationship exit strategies, but then you guys never got back around to the topic.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oops.
2
SPEAKER_01
I did a quick look in the podcast notes, the table of contents of her latest book, her website, Google search, and could find nothing on the topic except a YouTube clip on ghosting.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, that s some tenacity right there.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I know.
2
SPEAKER_01
tantalizing your listeners with something as fascinating as a relationship exit strategy and then pulling it away was not nice.
2
SPEAKER_01
Please invite her back to unpack that relationship exit strategy idea.
2
SPEAKER_01
Thank you, Linda.
2
SPEAKER_02
Well, sorry, I did a I did something that was not nice, but I m not known for being nice.
2
SPEAKER_02
So so there s that in my defense.
2
SPEAKER_02
But yeah, let s unpack this, Susan, because it seems like, yeah, she s probably right.
2
SPEAKER_02
We said something about great relationship exit strategies and then talked about it for 12 seconds and then got distracted by a squirrel.
2
SPEAKER_02
And here we are.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, we went over the seven steps of how you get yourself out of heartbreak.
2
SPEAKER_04
So that s when an exit has been created.
2
SPEAKER_04
And maybe you didn t want it.
2
SPEAKER_04
But an exit strategy is more of a concept that if we are willing to take as much time and attention to prepare ourselves for how we want to enter love, the kind of person we want, even what clothes we re going to wear, we should apply the same amount on the backside to prepare ourself with a protocol in case there is an ending.
2
SPEAKER_04
Now, we don t have to go over what we did before because those were seven steps, but there are times that
2
SPEAKER_04
we find it very difficult to walk away and keep moving forward.
2
SPEAKER_04
That somehow we re in a relationship, we know it s bad, either we need to break up with them, it s just not right.
2
SPEAKER_04
And when you come to that point and you ve tried everything and it s not workable, you need to have an exit strategy.
2
SPEAKER_04
So if we don t move easily, the reason is that there is something connecting us to that partner.
2
SPEAKER_04
So I figured out two steps that I think will help people
2
SPEAKER_04
The first question is that you isolate the factors that keep you hooked to your mate.
2
SPEAKER_04
Now that seems obvious.
2
SPEAKER_04
Somebody would say, Oh, you know, um, she s such a great girl.
2
SPEAKER_04
We get along well.
2
SPEAKER_04
We have the same friends.
2
SPEAKER_04
I love her family.
2
SPEAKER_04
That s not the level I m talking about.
2
SPEAKER_04
The actual level that s keeping you hooked is the bedrock underneath that.
2
SPEAKER_04
And Jordan, it is the weakest, most pathetic, ugly comments that you are ever going to hear yourself say.
2
SPEAKER_04
underneath what s really hooking you is like that scared child.
2
SPEAKER_04
And the phrases that you would have come out of you would be something like, I m afraid to be alone.
2
SPEAKER_04
Everybody has somebody I need to have him her, you know, everybody I know is married, I don t want to die alone.
2
SPEAKER_04
I m unlovable.
2
SPEAKER_04
I m, I m broken.
2
SPEAKER_04
You know, who would ever want me if this person if we separate because of and fill in the blanks, you know, too old, I m
2
SPEAKER_04
whatever.
2
SPEAKER_04
So there s that thing that makes us not able to leave.
2
SPEAKER_04
We will never know how to exit if we re hooked.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s a really good point because a lot of, I can t even count how many times I ve heard people in real life and in my inbox here say, well, you know, it s not perfect, but I don t think I m going to find somebody better or I don t think I m going to find somebody who suits all my needs in this area.
2
SPEAKER_02
So dot, dot, dot, which is different than,
2
SPEAKER_02
well, she s not perfect, but nobody is, and we love our relationship.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s always couched in, well, I m not necessarily going to be able to get somebody else, or what if I don t find somebody else, or what if it takes years?
2
SPEAKER_02
I m not ready for that.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s always about them.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s very rarely about the other person.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, and see, so that s a limiting belief, and that is what hooks us.
2
SPEAKER_04
Exiting would be easy.
2
SPEAKER_04
I mean, if it was like anything else, you try on a pair of clothes, you don t like them, so I m not taking it.
2
SPEAKER_04
they re back in the dressing room, not a problem.
2
SPEAKER_04
Love, it gets very complicated because we have these fears.
2
SPEAKER_04
And you ll know when you ve hit the real core of it because it will be a phrase that you can t even believe you re saying, but I m confident and I m successful.
2
SPEAKER_04
And suddenly you re gonna hear this phrase like, I m terrified of being alone forever.
2
SPEAKER_04
So when you find that, the second part, which is the cure for that, is actually now that you see it as an adult,
2
SPEAKER_04
It is so ridiculous.
2
SPEAKER_04
And you know it is.
2
SPEAKER_04
You got to find that little phrase.
2
SPEAKER_04
Then you reframe with a new vision of your life without that person.
2
SPEAKER_04
So it s basically taking the argument that was limited and false and turning it around to its positive opposite equivalent.
2
SPEAKER_04
So it could be, well, everybody s alone at some time.
2
SPEAKER_04
Alone doesn t mean lonely.
2
SPEAKER_04
Why would I think this is the only person in the world who can love me?
2
SPEAKER_04
And then you ve got to reprogram your life
2
SPEAKER_04
with a positive vision of your future and positive self-talk to have a life that s valuable without this person.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I like this, because this involves reprogramming, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
This involves reprogramming your belief systems in a way that s quite manual, and of course the only way to do that is to figure out where the faulty programming lies.
2
SPEAKER_02
You can t just look in the mirror and go, I m good enough, I m smart enough, and doggone it, people like me, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
You have to find where you re really, where you actually feel like you re weak, and you can t do that if you re busy holding up a mask that even, so thick, that even you can t see where the holes are.
2
SPEAKER_02
So we ve gotta find what we really think about this subject, what we really think about ourselves, and then we can start reprogramming those beliefs one by one.
2
SPEAKER_02
I love it.
2
SPEAKER_02
Hopefully that works out for you, Linda.
2
SPEAKER_02
Thank you for being a fan, and thanks for pointing out that we forgot to do that last time, and thank you for giving us an excuse to get Susan Winter back on the show.
2
SPEAKER_02
All right, Jason, let s hear from Rodney.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hi, Jordan.
2
SPEAKER_01
My wife is about three years older than I am.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve noticed women tend to sexually mature faster than men in most cases.
2
SPEAKER_01
These two things have led to a relationship in which my wife has had considerably more sexual partners and experience than I ve had.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve had plenty of sex, but I just had less of a promiscuous mindset, and I was 24 when we married.
2
SPEAKER_01
She was 27.
2
SPEAKER_01
And just to give you an idea, this is a woman who s spent a lot of time in Vegas, Cabo, Havasu, and plenty of other places known to be hookup spots, and there are other details not worth getting into.
2
SPEAKER_01
Whenever she brings up any indication of her past, the situation makes me feel jealous, angry, and also like I want to go off and get more sexual experience as well.
2
SPEAKER_01
The problem is that we re married and have two kids, with another one on the way, and
3
SPEAKER_00
seems like such a petty issue to even sometimes think about.
3
SPEAKER_00
Breaking up a family situation with something like this seems so much less important, and yet feelings are what they are.
3
SPEAKER_00
Would love your perspective on the situation.
3
SPEAKER_00
Thanks, Rodney.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I think it s not just that women tend to sexually mature faster, which is true, it s that guys want to have sex with them more than women want to have sex with you at whatever age we re talking about generally, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
All the way up and until kind of forever.
3
SPEAKER_02
So, unfortunately for a lot of us.
3
SPEAKER_02
But what I m seeing in this question that I want to highlight before I hand this over to you, Susan, is that he s kind of judgy.
3
SPEAKER_02
I had less of a promiscuous mindset instead of, I mean, he wouldn t be saying that if
3
SPEAKER_02
He was the one with more sexual experience.
3
SPEAKER_02
He would say, you know, well, I was growing up and I was 24 when we were married.
3
SPEAKER_02
She was 27.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s another layer of insecurity that is, I think, triggering the judgment.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then just to give you an idea, this is a woman who spent a lot of time in Vegas, Cabo Havasu and plenty of other hookup spots.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s like,
3
SPEAKER_02
If that were you, man, you would be justifying this left and right.
3
SPEAKER_02
But since it s your wife and you re judgmental about it and you re insecure about it, now it s a bad thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I think that highlights and underlies the root of the whole problem that he s got with this.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love working with you, Jordan.
3
SPEAKER_01
You sometimes were on the same angle.
3
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes you hit a point I never even thought about.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, what I hear is a lot of pain and insecurity.
3
SPEAKER_01
I would suggest he reframe this entire perspective.
3
SPEAKER_01
He is glamorizing her years of being single.
3
SPEAKER_01
And by the way, I have had this conversation with men before.
3
SPEAKER_01
Don t think it was a picnic.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, she wasn t probably, oh, another orgy tonight.
3
SPEAKER_01
I can t wait.
3
SPEAKER_01
Chances are, you know, guys have to understand that sex is the price of admission to a relationship.
3
SPEAKER_01
We don t know that that was her desire.
3
SPEAKER_01
We don t know that she had random promiscuous hookups.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think if she s a woman, she probably wanted one guy and one relationship, and now she found you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not just two, a third kid on the way.
3
SPEAKER_01
Be glad that your wife got that out of her system so that she knows a good man when she finds him, and relax that she may have higher numbers than you.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s not important.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I think it s hard for guys to get over this stuff initially.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, every, I ll tell you right now, and I think I even talked with you about this years ago, whenever I start dating somebody, I m always, there s a phase, and this isn t just me, it s a lot of guys, I assume, there s always a phase at which you just don t wanna hear about their past, you don t wanna get into it because you have this person, you re in the honeymoon phase, you don t wanna think about this person getting, you know, railed by some other dude, it s like the worst feeling
3
SPEAKER_02
ever, especially if you ve got distance between you, or you re fighting about something, or you don t want your fairy tale to be ruined in the beginning, it s totally understandable, but what you can t do is then go, oh, she s been with other guys, what a whore, when you would ve done the same thing, when everybody else has done the same thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s hard not to, but you ve gotta realize this is your biology playing tricks on you, it s your mind playing tricks on you, and everybody s got a past, it s not really any of your business.
3
SPEAKER_02
Frankly, the fact that she s told him about this signals a level of trust,
3
SPEAKER_02
and intimacy in the relationship that he should be happy with and proud of, and not something that he s gonna wanna punish her for, because I ll tell you this, Rodney, if you punish her for being open about her past, she will learn to not do that again, and then you ve just hammered a hatch shut inside your relationship with your wife.
3
SPEAKER_01
Brilliant, brilliant.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, he should actually feel like quite the man, younger guy, caught this wild horse,
3
SPEAKER_01
And you know, she s had a life and she chose him.
3
SPEAKER_01
She chose him and baby after baby, she s there.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have always thought, you know, I don t want to catch a guy before he s gotten it out of his system.
3
SPEAKER_01
I want it after he s gone through whatever he needed to go through to sort himself out.
3
SPEAKER_01
Nobody likes, nobody doesn t like, I don t want him on the way to discover that that s not a safe time to have a relationship.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we don t know.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I still think he is glamorizing all this.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think he s,
3
SPEAKER_01
you know, that s comparison, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, we take one frail part of ourself.
3
SPEAKER_01
So we imagine and contrast it to the best of this.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think he s imagining luxurious nights and, you know, Casanovas.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it was probably a lot less exciting than that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I think he s glamorizing it.
3
SPEAKER_01
He s blowing it out of proportion.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m with you on that.
3
SPEAKER_01
That was such a brilliant comment about, you know, honesty is that thing that is so rare and it will keep a relationship alive.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if you start to
3
SPEAKER_01
Dislike or harbor resentment for your mate because they told you the truth You as you said you re hammering that door shut.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s that s the death knell of a relationship
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, relationships and honesty in general in any relationship, friendship, marriage, or otherwise, takes years and years to build, and it takes maybe one experience like this to show somebody.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s like touching a stove, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
If she gets punished for this openness, it s gonna be a long time before you can build openness in other areas, and not just this area, in other areas.
3
SPEAKER_02
You don t even want this to be a concern.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, should I share this with Rodney?
3
SPEAKER_02
Well, he kind of overreacted that other way and that ruined the whole vacation.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know, I ll just keep it to myself.
3
SPEAKER_02
You don t want that to become the default.
3
SPEAKER_02
You want that to become, you want that never to happen, in theory, inside a relationship.
3
SPEAKER_01
Good, good, Jordan.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love what you said.
3
SPEAKER_01
Perfect, perfect.
3
SPEAKER_00
Last but not least, Jason, take it away.
3
SPEAKER_00
I recently listened to both parts of your interview from 2013 with Susan Winter.
3
SPEAKER_00
Killer episodes, by the way.
3
SPEAKER_00
A lot of it was setting boundaries before things got serious.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m newly married and have been with her since 2010.
3
SPEAKER_00
However, I didn t know anything about setting boundaries until about a month ago, and I m worried that it s too late since she s already established much of quote-unquote what is and quote-unquote what isn t in our home.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just to give context, we moved in together when we got married.
3
SPEAKER_00
She abstains from drinking, which is cool, and I respect that, as there have been alcohol abuse issues on both sides of our families, but doesn t quote-unquote allow me to have alcohol in the home and would probably become instantly furious if I brought some home to enjoy after a long day.
3
SPEAKER_00
She also decided not to take my last name, which I find very disheartening.
3
SPEAKER_00
I made this clear to her, but she has made up her mind.
3
SPEAKER_00
There are some other control issues, but these two always stick out as sore points for me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I love her dearly, and not having alcohol in the home is not enough to end the relationship, but I m fearful of her continuing to issue mandates without my consent.
3
SPEAKER_00
Any suggestions for resources I could look into about setting boundaries after you ve been in a relationship for a good chunk of time?
3
SPEAKER_00
Signed, Cliff.
3
SPEAKER_02
The one thing that I see here that s kind of a running theme, and again, I ll just say this before I hand it off to you, Susan.
3
SPEAKER_02
Well, one, it seems like we ve known each other for at least three plus to four years if he listened to that episode in 2013, so that s kind of cool.
3
SPEAKER_02
I didn t know that, didn t even think about that.
3
SPEAKER_02
The fact that she decided not to take his last name, eh, that could be anything, but when combined with she abstains from drinking, gets furious, if I drink, won t let me bring it home, there s either a couple of discrete issues here, one of which has to do with strong feelings about alcohol as a substance, as a drug, or there s just a control issue happening here.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s hard to say without more evidence, but he even says there are some other control issues, so clearly that s what he s thinking this is.
3
SPEAKER_00
One thing before you jump in, I want to point out that he said, probably become furious, which means he hasn t done it, but he s scared of her.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_02
Well, he s probably got a reason to worry about that kind of thing, especially given that he says there s other control issues here.
3
SPEAKER_02
So that s just something I thought I even thought of control issues before he mentioned control issues, because it just seems like a little bit too much.
3
SPEAKER_02
It would be different if you re both recovering alcoholics and you bring booze home.
3
SPEAKER_02
I get it, you re both in treatment for something, she can t enable you, it s gonna be a problem.
3
SPEAKER_02
But if this isn t something that s acknowledged between you two, and you wanna have a beer after work, but you think she s gonna fly off the handle, there might be something else going on here.
3
SPEAKER_01
Good point.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, I didn t know if she was in recovery or not, so I kind of took a different angle on this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Definitely the guy can start establishing boundaries now.
3
SPEAKER_01
He may not wanna go for the big two.
3
SPEAKER_01
They seem to be locked for now.
3
SPEAKER_01
I would make small incremental wins on other areas.
3
SPEAKER_01
Uh, I would ask if there s a vacation and he wants to go to the beach, but she wants to go snowboarding.
3
SPEAKER_01
Does she always win?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because now you can use these two, the last name that she wouldn t take.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the no alcohol is leverage.
3
SPEAKER_01
So anytime you want to do something and she s not letting you, and she s going to have it be her way, I d say, honey,
3
SPEAKER_01
I allowed you to not take my last name.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that really hurt me.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I don t even drink.
3
SPEAKER_01
Those are huge.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think I get a vacation on the beach.
3
SPEAKER_01
So use it to your advantage.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I do think it is indicative of, it s kind of funny.
3
SPEAKER_01
It just seems like she proactively makes choices.
3
SPEAKER_01
And Jordan, we talked about this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Just because she s a woman doesn t mean that she knows how a relationship goes.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, he s got rights here too.
3
SPEAKER_01
So start with small issues and do not give.
4
SPEAKER_01
here is really, is it too late to set boundaries?
4
SPEAKER_01
Is it too late to make his own way be known or his desires be known inside the relationship?
4
SPEAKER_01
And the answer is, it s probably later than you would want, but definitely not too late.
4
SPEAKER_01
And waiting till it gets really bad and you, you know, someone leaves the cap off the toothpaste and you end up trying to stab each other, then it becomes a bigger issue, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
So yes, set those boundaries now.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s got to be done in a reasonable, rational way.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I wonder how this is going to turn out, because she didn t take his last name, but did he stick up for himself?
4
SPEAKER_01
Did he even communicate that that was going to be hurtful to him?
4
SPEAKER_01
Was that even a thing they discussed, or did she just go,
4
SPEAKER_01
yeah I think I ll keep my last name and he went okay and then secretly inside was just heartbroken we don t really know their communication habits but what we do know cliff is that you ve got to make your needs known and you ve got to stick up for yourself at a certain level and turn this more into compromise because it seems like perhaps and I m assuming here he s been giving on everything
4
SPEAKER_01
and there s really kind of a covert contract where he thinks, eventually I ll get my way on something.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I guess not on this.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, I gave on this, maybe she ll give on that.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, maybe not on that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And he s slowly becoming more and more angry, whereas she might not have any clue that he feels this way.
4
SPEAKER_00
Jordan, that s perfect, and that s great advice.
4
SPEAKER_00
Replay every time you got something taken away from you, and you re right.
4
SPEAKER_00
Was it even a discussion?
4
SPEAKER_00
Were you simply told, oh, we re doing this?
4
SPEAKER_00
Because when you replay how that happened, that s where you can learn how to cut it off at the pass.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you can start to interject, and that s where you change your conversation, you change your boundaries.
4
SPEAKER_00
The minute she says, oh, we re going camping on Saturday.
4
SPEAKER_00
Wait a minute, let s talk about this.
4
SPEAKER_00
I like the idea, but I m not sure this is the weekend.
4
SPEAKER_00
And if you have to negotiate for nothing at all, just negotiate to negotiate.
4
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you ll let her win, but show that you have an opinion.
4
SPEAKER_00
And Jordan is absolutely right.
4
SPEAKER_00
If she s hurt your feelings, that s a conversation.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it doesn t matter when you have that.
4
SPEAKER_00
You need to communicate to her.
4
SPEAKER_00
I need to talk to you.
4
SPEAKER_00
You ve really hurt my feelings on this.
4
SPEAKER_00
We are in partnership.
4
SPEAKER_00
Don t minimize me.
4
SPEAKER_00
I have an opinion.
4
SPEAKER_00
Let s discuss it together.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think that s really, really the way to do it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Great advice, Susan, as usual.
4
SPEAKER_01
Hope y all enjoyed that.
4
SPEAKER_01
Don t forget, you can email us Friday at theartofcharm.com to get your questions answered on the air.
4
SPEAKER_01
A link to the show notes for this episode can be found at theartofcharm.com slash fmf100.
4
SPEAKER_01
Wow, 100 of these.
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We ve done 100 episodes of Fan Mail Friday, and we ve answered plenty of other letters even before that.
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That s a lot, that s 500 plus.
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Seems like just yesterday that we started doing this.
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It does, indeed.
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Also, of course, don t forget the Art of Charm Challenge.
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Text the word CHARMED, C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444 here in the States.
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Everywhere else, go to theartofcharm.com slash challenge.
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We re taking you step by step, becoming better at making personal and professional connections, becoming a better networker, increasing your personal social capital and your charisma.
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And it s for both guys and gals.
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So check that out.
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Text the word CHARMED, C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444 in the states.
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Everywhere else, theartofcharm.com slash challenge.
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I also do a lot of speaking these days.
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I spoke at 2nd Ranger Battalion, I m speaking at Google, I m speaking at a couple other companies that I can t mention just yet, but if you re interested in having me come speak to your organization, your company, your school, reach out to me, Jordan, at theartofcharm.com.
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Quick shout out to Linda E.
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She s a PhD psychologist and a therapist, and she says she learns more useful and fascinating stuff from The Art of Charm than she did in 20 years of grad school and practice, which is awesome.
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That made the day, I ll tell you that, Linda.
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And Simon, our Lyft driver in Denver, I got picked up, me, AJ, and Johnny were in Denver filming some stuff.
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We got picked up by this guy who said, wait a minute, are you guys The Art of Charm?
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When we got in the car,
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And that was kinda cool, that made our weekend for sure.
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Gave us a free ride, which is good because my phone had stopped working and had gotten canceled and we ended up getting kind of a hookup there, which is really cool.
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Are you in a strange land listening to my familiar voice?
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If so, hit me up, I ll shout you out.
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More from AOC at theartofcharm.com, including info on our live residential boot camps that we run every single week here in L.A.
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If you want to dig deep into this stuff and work on your AOC skills with us as your coaches, check out our boot camps, bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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Now stay charming, get out there and connect, and leave everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to The Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.