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In this episode of the Advanced Selling Podcast, I share my experience listening to a British horse race, we channel the angel of death tying hospice and post-mortem to sales, and we take a listener question about what to do to win back a lost account.
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Welcome back to the Advanced Selling Podcast, the longest-running sales training podcast.
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I am Bill Kasky.
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And I am Brian Neal.
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And we join you every week.
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And hopefully, we bring a little light into your life and a little wisdom, too, not necessarily from us, but sometimes from listeners and other guests.
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And we get about 1,000 requests for guests every week into the podcast.
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True, true.
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It s not like a floodgate to let everyone in.
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People who want to be on.
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We re trying to really be selective about that.
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Did you just say, shine a little light?
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I did.
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Now, you know what that reminded me of, speaking of music, is there s an ELO song called something similar to that.
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You know what I m talking about?
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Mm-mm.
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Is that ELO?
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By the way, we re getting auto-tuned.
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We ve decided.
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So stay tuned for that.
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Wasn t that auto-tuned?
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That was an auto-tune.
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But there s a local sports broadcaster here who claims, and I agree, name a bad ELO song.
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There is one.
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Oh, I agree.
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I think ELO s great.
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Yeah, and they re back on tour, by the way.
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They re on tour right now.
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Yeah, yeah.
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In fact, I think they might be coming here to Andy.
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You re fine.
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I had a music trivia set up for you today, but my laptop is over there.
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So next time we ll do a music trivia.
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It s something you ll enjoy, I think.
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Yeah, I was actually on a flight.
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And this is just odd.
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But one of the things I like, I grew up, my grandpa used to take me to the horse races when I was a little kid.
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And I grew up, there s a horse racing track in my hometown.
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And I don t like to bet, and I can t bet because of my other job.
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I do like to watch the horse races.
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It s just a fun thing to do.
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The other job as a jockey.
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Yeah, it is.
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I am a jockey at that same track.
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Yeah, I m 230 in my football job.
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I m 110 on the other ones, right?
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Just don t eat carbs for 24 hours.
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I m not the zeke of a jockey, but that s OK.
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Not quite.
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Strong words.
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There s a horse racing channel where it s like TVG or something like that.
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And I was flipping through on the airplane because the airplane had satellite TV.
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And I was watching this.
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And I was watching a British horse race.
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You know how horse race announcers should be really exciting?
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Like, and they re off.
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Have you ever listened to a British sports show?
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A British.
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I m like, this is the most boring.
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And the horses have left the gate.
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They re now traveling down the front stretch and they re moving down towards the left turn.
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And there s number three hitting him in the butt with the whip.
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I just picture them all just kind of back there going.
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No, run, horsey, run.
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In the US, you go to a horse racing track, people are throwing stuff, they re screaming everything.
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Just a little different experience for my British fans who are doing the horse races.
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Oh, that s good.
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And the other odd part of that was on this TV channel, it was just the audio.
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So they just showed this frozen picture of these horses, and it s just a radio feed of the British horse racing announcer.
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What airline was this?
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I don t remember.
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Oh, it was United.
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United.
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I always feel like United.
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OK, so here is a question that we got from a listener.
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And it s a very long question, but I have tried to go back and pull out a few highlights from it.
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And then we re going to talk about this topic of when you lose sales, then what do you do?
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What do you do when you lose a sale?
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What s the next step?
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Aaron sent us a really nice note.
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And he talks about he works for a capital equipment manufacturer, and they grew the business and his sales team was awesome.
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And then they went to a handoff policy where once the client was acquired, they would bring them in and then hand them off to a customer success or account management, whatever you want to call it.
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which is very common.
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And Aaron was asked not to talk to this new customer success team.
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They had a manager and blah, blah, blah.
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Great idea.
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Unfortunately, what happened was they had some production issues, and the team stopped communicating with the customers because they had to deliver bad news.
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And when you have to deliver bad news, sometimes it s easier to just hope that the bad news goes away.
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Obviously, that s wrong.
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So they lost some clients and now it s coming up on a few months and he needs to go back and do something He is he is committed to his his senior executives that he s gonna go do something.
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So That s the question that he poses to us is now that he s committed to it.
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Yeah, what is he going to do?
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I
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Yeah, it s a really good question.
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And it s one that, especially I think these days, it s actually getting more buzzy as this sales client success model starts to come together, which is really, really popular these days, especially in technologies in the SaaS world, as we call it.
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And there s a phrase that my clients that are in that world use for these situations.
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They call them win-backs.
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So you think about, I m going to go try to win back the customer.
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The customer has canceled or not renewed their contract, or they ve whatever, gone a different direction.
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But they re still there.
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And so what do we do with them?
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How do we transfer from this client success back to sales?
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When the salespeople get back involved, what do they do?
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What do they say?
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So we re going to explore that.
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If you re listening to this and you re ever in a situation, which all of you are, where you actually lose an account, an existing account, whether or not it s been handed off to client success or not, we re going to talk about what to do, what you should do as a salesperson in that win-back process.
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OK.
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I have another.
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It s not a tip as much as it is a recommendation.
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OK.
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Train your client success teams.
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I know that a lot of companies train their sales teams, and we do some of that training.
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But train your client success team.
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How many times have I heard or experienced client success that s not client nor success?
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No.
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Because these people are untrained.
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And so if you are in a position
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If you are in a position where you have a team of client success or you re a sales leader, is your client success team well-trained?
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And I don t just mean trained in the product.
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I mean trained in psychology, how people make decisions, how to make people comfortable, how to have difficult conversations.
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All that stuff is so important, and I think it s the least trained
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place in the company.
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Agree.
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Without question.
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And I m really working hard to do some work around that, too.
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Because the problem, too, the people that sign up for this job are typically not salespeople.
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That s why they signed up for it, because they don t really like part of the grind, maybe in the hunt, and that sort of thing.
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That s exactly right.
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And so they re not naturally skilled at some of these things.
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It s off the cuff if they get a mean, angry person calling them, or things aren t going well.
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And the other thing I found is they are thirsting
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for training and coaching.
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They are dying for someone to come in and help them and support them.
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They get nothing.
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And really, in many ways, I think keeping a client and growing a client is harder than landing a client.
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It is.
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Because landing a client, you ve got marketing.
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You ve got these freebies and lead magnets.
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You ve got the web, social, all these things.
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You know, I think you ve got to be every bit as good of a sales professional to keep and grow clients as you do to land them.
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And yet, companies just ignore that.
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It s like, well, we re just trying to.
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It s like we re hanging on.
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We just got to hang on to these clients.
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I mean, how great is the marriage or the relationship in the first four to six, eight weeks, right?
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Everybody s buzzing up, and you re just all over each other, and nothing goes wrong.
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Then once you ve been married for six, eight, 10 years, the thing starts to change.
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The client success people are the ones that are managing the marriage six, eight, 10 years in.
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It s much more difficult than doing it on the honeymoon.
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I can manage a marriage on a honeymoon.
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That s pretty easy.
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Not a whole lot of management.
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How do we get there?
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I don t know.
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But I had a, and this is good, good conversation here.
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At least I think it is.
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I have a client who is a client, she s both sales professional and client success or account manager.
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So she s responsible not only for selling them, but for keeping them.
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And that s really hard because I think there are two very different personalities and skill sets.
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But that s the position she s in.
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And she says, the problem is they come up to the recurring time where they re trying to get these people to re-up for another year, and not much has been done in the last six months.
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Not a lot of attention has been paid to them.
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They ve gotten some sporadic emails.
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And I said, you ve got to start, the day they become a client is the day you start on the re-up.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Bees of service to them not just in the last three months, but every month every month You need to be having some kind of conversation video email audio podcast, whatever so that by the time the re-op happens It s a no-brainer.
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Yep, instead of who are you now?
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Did you sell me this?
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I can t remember Oh, you re now you re wanting the money.
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Yeah, come on, you know, you know who actually does this?
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Well who politicians
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If you get on any, forget which side of the table you re on.
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If you sign up for any politician s anything, lead list, text thing, the day they get elected is the day that they start running for re-election.
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And they start raising for the re-election.
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They re really good at that.
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And they do not stop the whole time.
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No, that s a good point.
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So that s a great little thing to think about.
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OK, so you ve got some thoughts, and I ve got some thoughts.
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Yeah, so let s talk about what to do and what to say here.
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So if you re in the position where you ve lost an account, and now it s trying to go back and get them, we call that a win-back, what should I do?
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What should I say?
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So the first thing I said here, and I, again, learned this from a
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coaching program I m in with my friend Dan Sullivan.
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He talks about doing what s called a positive focus.
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I mentioned this on a few podcasts ago to look back.
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I think you need to acknowledge the good.
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Acknowledge the good.
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Usually when people leave, it s bad.
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And it s either because your tour of duty is over, or something s clunky with the product, or competitors come in.
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I think you should always, always, at the exit, acknowledge the good things.
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Say, you know what?
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We ve had a great run.
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We ve done some great things together.
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We ve been together for three years, eight years, whatever.
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We hope we ve served you well over that time that hasn t all been bad.
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And we re really thankful for what we ve done so far to now.
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And it s OK to go, if that makes sense.
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You see, this is a little heavy, but when you talk about in hospice.
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It sounds like it s OK to go.
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This is deal hospice, right?
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Yeah.
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I ll bring it down a little bit here.
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Turn the lights off, burn some candles.
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But that s what they say.
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They say you should give your loved ones permissions to go as part of the hospice care.
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I think we should do that too here.
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Acknowledge the good.
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When you said that, I thought, let people go.
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That sounds remarkably similar.
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Well, I don t know that these are in order here, but at some point you re going to have a conversation with this person who you re trying to win back.
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I think if you address that conversation intellectually, it doesn t have as much power as if you address it emotionally.
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And the emotional addressing of it is that authentic, look, this was not on my plan.
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We jacked it up.
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We screwed it up.
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Not only did we screw up the situation, but we didn t communicate properly.
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I take that all on me.
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And so my goal over the next year is to win you back.
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And I know it s going to take a while.
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It may never happen.
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But there was no reason for you to leave, in our opinion.
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And I know you had to do it, whatever those words are.
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But you ve got to get truly authentic.
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And if you try to say, well, you know, since you left, we ve made some changes.
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We ve got 13 more people now in our client service organization.
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And we use Evernote now.
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So that s going to be better for you.
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No, you ve got to be real and authentic.
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And that s the way that you re going to start to set the table for the next year when you re going to be pursuing it.
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That s so good.
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And so many people don t do that.
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They flip into save the deal mode, and they flip into feature function stuff, or let s just give them a discount pricing, renegotiate the contract, all this jazz, and no acknowledgment of the emotional pain that might be going on.
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with the person is very, very good.
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Here s the next one.
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Know when to stop.
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Sometimes when people start to exit, they give notice.
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They say they re going to cancel.
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We go all in on them all of a sudden.
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It s like, I haven t paid attention to you for a year, but now that you re leaving me, you re going to be my best friend.
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I m going to go get you, right?
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There s a time and a place to stop.
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And you have to have, in my opinion, an event where we re done.
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It s over.
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It s over.
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And call it that and be done with it.
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And what I find people will do too often in this situation is they ll keep kind of scratching and clawing and not letting the person leave.
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And at some point you go, OK, it s very clear to me.
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Then you start to aggravate.
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Now you re aggravating them.
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And that is as much for you as the salesperson as it is for them, that you give yourself permission
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and align this in an event where, OK, they re no longer a client.
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I ve got to come to terms with that and be done with it.
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So there has to be some definitive language and definitive date or action around that.
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Don t you think that happens when I don t have a good lead generation flow, and so I don t have a lot of things working in the top of the pipeline, and so I m trying to hang on to everything I can?
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Yes.
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Yes and yes.
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If I have proper lead flow, I m
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Now, that s another thing.
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If you have good lead flow, don t then be abrasive with this person.
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And don t say, well, shit, I don t give a damn.
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I got 17 other.
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No, you can t do that, because that s not going to be good for your reputation.
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No, for sure.
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On Yelp.
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OK.
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On Yelp.
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Was that yours?
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Here s, I ve got something, and I don t know this is a win-back strategy, but it s an improvement strategy, is do some kind of a post-mortem.
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We re really into the death analysis today.
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But do some kind of a post-mortem.
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We re trying to figure out exactly what happened.
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And bring your team together.
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And I know the team starts to get defensive.
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Well, you know, I told him.
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I told him I was going to call him.
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And I always called him, but he wasn t there.
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Don t get defensive.
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Just try to understand from an unbiased standpoint what really happened here.
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And if it was a chain of events, which they almost always are, it s never one thing.
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It s always, what s his name say?
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It s seven things that go wrong.
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What s his name?
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I don t know what his name is, but it sounds really great.
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A tipping point, Malcolm Gladwell.
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Oh, Malcolm Gladwell, yes.
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So whenever things go right or go wrong, there s always seven things or more.
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And so do a postmortem.
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Get your team together.
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Talk about it.
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Analyze it.
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Become familiar with it.
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And by doing that, you might protect and prevent the next one from happening, which was one of mine, but it doesn t really fit into this, how do you win him back?
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But I think you have to do some kind of an analysis.
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And once you do, you will find you re all smart.
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You re all intuitive.
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You know what happened.
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And if you can make the environment safe for your teams to be honest with you about that, that s more helpful.
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And you have to be objective about that.
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You ve got to look in the mirror.
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OK, I m going to combine my next two, if that s OK with you, Bill.
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OK.
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So because the first one s a mentality, the second one is an action.
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First mentality, really important.
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And our friend Dave Catalano, so Dave wrote the foreword I mentioned sometimes to Bill s book, Same Game, New Rules.
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And Bill and I both know him really well.
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I actually worked for him.
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He was my boss for a little bit.
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One of the things he had on this big folder of stuff that Bill used to teach him was the words, know nothing.
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He used to have this on this outside folder, and it said, know nothing.
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You have to erase your brain when you re going back on a windback to forget what got you there, because something has changed.
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And what I find mistakes people make when they do this is they go back, and they assume all the things that they heard when they originally did the deal are still relevant and true.
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So you have to look at this as a brand new deal, OK?
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It s just like if, again, if you were married and then you split up and you re going to get back together, you have to start dating again.
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You can t just pick up where you left off because it didn t work the first time, OK?
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So you mentally have to know nothing.
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Then you have to move into a relationship management strategy.
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for a lost client, which I think is different than a brand new client that s never done work with us before.
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Because you have to acknowledge a little history.
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Things that would go into that, because you should know more about them than you do strangers.
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Things that might go into there, giving them referrals or introductions to people for things that could be related or unrelated to you, really doesn t matter there.
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And feeding them really, really good information and intelligent knowledge that helps them run their business.
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So if you ve been a client of mine for a while, and now we re not working together anymore, I still care about you as a person, a business owner.
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So if I run across ideas, or excerpts, or blogs, or people that I think can help you, I m going to, without you asking me, insert those into your life.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think we have to remember, this was great.
1
SPEAKER_00
When you were talking, I was not listening.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s OK.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I was shaking my head as if.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was playing as if.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re Handsome Dan.
1
SPEAKER_01
Handsome Dan.
1
SPEAKER_01
What is that, Travi?
1
SPEAKER_01
Where s Handsome Dan?
1
SPEAKER_01
What show is that?
1
SPEAKER_01
Wayne s World.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Wayne s World.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s great.
1
SPEAKER_00
Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
So let us know in the LinkedIn, in our LinkedIn group.
1
SPEAKER_00
If you re not a member, by the way, go to advancedsellingpodcast.com slash LinkedIn and join.
1
SPEAKER_00
And give us a note.
1
SPEAKER_00
Tell us what you think about this topic of win-backs and how do we start preparing for when someone leaves to get them back into your fold?
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I know what I was going to say.
1
SPEAKER_00
Ta-da!
1
SPEAKER_00
That is that when someone leaves for presumably a better alternative because they ve been mad at you, the first year is a real vulnerable time for them.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I wouldn t give up on this.
1
SPEAKER_00
I know sometimes we think, well, they were so mad at us.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know what?
1
SPEAKER_00
They may have really high expectations that the next guy is not going to be able to meet.
1
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_00
So the first year of any kind of relationship, the first three or four weeks and maybe even months are honeymoon.
1
SPEAKER_00
But then it s never as good as it seems.
1
SPEAKER_00
So if you had a good relationship with them over time, even though some bad things happen, don t forget that it s vulnerable right now.
1
SPEAKER_00
They may be in the perfect place to entertain more thoughts of working with you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Be there for the slip up.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, because it will happen.
1
SPEAKER_00
If you are having an event here soon, a sales meeting or a retreat, and want to bring in two very, very handsome guys, who should I send them to?
1
SPEAKER_00
Not us.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, give us a call or send us an email at listener at Advanced Selling Podcasts with the subject line, come see us, and one of us will get back with you and we ll talk about your event, how we can be of service to you and help you to make it an awesome event as we head into the final months of 2018.
1
SPEAKER_00
See you next time.
1
SPEAKER_00
Bye.