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Most companies out there their brand doesn t add value to the gift so they should leave it off and make it all about the recipient not the giver.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re talking with my friend John Rulon, who is an expert on both networking and gift giving, as weird as that might sound, and author of a book called Giftology, which is essentially about the art slash science of networking and gift giving.
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Now this is kind of a weird combination, but bear with us.
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We re gonna talk about how gifts and generosity make people at work want to help you.
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how to become an attention broker and stand out above the noise, how to get past gatekeepers, turn them into your advocates, and why many people are wasting their networking dollars slash time and what they should invest in when it comes to relationships.
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And of course, as the holidays draw closer, we re gonna talk a little bit about why your significant other might hate your gifts and what you can do to make sure he or she is blown away by future gift selections.
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So we re glad to have you here with us today at AOC.
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Enjoy this one with my friend, John Rulon.
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And by the way,
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If you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the AOC toolbox, where we discuss things like reading body language and nonverbal communication, the science of attraction, negotiation techniques, networking, mentorship, influence, persuasion tactics, and just about everything else that we teach here at the Art of Charm.
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If you re in the United States, you can text charmed to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D, to 33444.
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Everywhere else, just go to theartofcharm.com and also at theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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That s where you ll find the full show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show.
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Alright, here s John Rulon.
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John, thanks for coming back on the show, man.
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It s good to have you.
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Jordan, thanks for having me.
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This is gonna be a lot of fun.
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Now, your book is called Giftology.
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You don t really have to read into it to get what the title means, but why an entire book on the science or techniques or whatever of gift giving?
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Maybe the art of gift giving, I don t know.
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Why a whole book on this subject?
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Well, I would say for one, we scan the world of books.
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And even though Amazon publishes like 30,000 books a day or a week or some crazy number, like there is no like.
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hardcore or really any book that was just around the topic of gifting, like whether in business or personal, that would really be a playbook and show you how it could be a competitive advantage in your life.
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And so when we realized nobody was talking about it, and we had built an entire business around helping companies and pro sports teams do gifting at a high level, we realized nobody else is going to write it.
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We might as well put our freaking flag in the ground.
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And we ve been doing this for 16 years.
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We know a thing or two.
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started doing some interviews and realized there s enough here for a book, so let s do it.
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What exactly is the demand here?
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I mean, you ve been doing gifting for 16 years, and why is this important?
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Why is this more complicated than just hitting up your local Walmart and picking up the nearest Whitman sampler?
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Well, I think that whether in business or personal, we re all human beings.
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You know, human beings make decisions based upon how they feel.
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Emotional intelligence is really important.
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And I know you ve talked about that a lot on your on your show.
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And so if people make decisions based upon how they feel, whether it s your spouse, your boss, your cousin, your client,
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what you do to actually show gratitude, appreciation to them can be a big deal because people will judge you based upon how you re showing appreciation, you know, whether it s your spouse or significant other, whatever else.
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And so.
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we saw over the last 16 years when working in the business world, particularly that we were able to deepen relationships and open doors, prospects and increase referrals and, and help people really kind of move up the ladder in the business world by leveraging gratitude at a strategic level, not a
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hey, it s Valentine s Day.
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Crap, I better pick up something at Walgreens on the way home.
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But, you know, when you re talking about your significant other, thinking about gratitude the way, you know, Gary Vaynerchuk, you know, would talk about it, which is do it when it s unexpected.
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Do it at times when your wife or your husband isn t thinking about gifting.
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So just pick a random day and say, just because I brought you these flowers or just because I was thinking of you, I wrote you a letter.
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And when you do things strategically and make people feel a certain way, they want to reciprocate.
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And it s amazing the relationships that you re able to deepen and strengthen and solidify by being strategic with something that most people kind of view as a random afterthought or a check the box once a year at my anniversary on a birthday.
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When you re strategic with it, it s really powerful.
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So how do we use the gifts in a professional sphere?
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Because we understand for sure the concepts of reciprocity and creating feelings to spur beliefs and actions and things like that.
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But it seems like in the business realm and in our personal lives, often we can use gift giving the way that you do, which is in this cool, authentic way that also, say, elevates you to the level of maybe an attention broker.
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It creates a way for you to stand out.
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And it works really well without seeming like
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Here s a gift basket with a bunch of jams and sausage in it because we want you to buy our brand of tires, right?
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It works.
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What s going on there?
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Yeah, it works really well.
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And I think that in business, you know, there s a lot of noise.
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Like we re all, you know, moving at a hundred miles an hour and we got our inboxes that are blowing up.
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Most people have all these special apps or assistants to look at their inboxes when they re at a certain level, just because like there s so much noise.
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And so.
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I have to rely on other forms of communication.
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And I think the beautiful thing about gifting is, especially if it s tangible, I call a lot of the gifts that we do artifacts because they re not consumable.
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And so when you can give somebody something that shows that you know the other person well and shows that you care, most lazy people in business will say, well, it s the thought that counts.
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I sent him a Starbucks gift card.
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That s not the thought that counts.
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It s the thoughtful thought.
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So when you re known in circles as being the thoughtful person, the person that goes the extra mile, I mean, some of the groups that we run in, you know, Jason Gaynor at Mastermind talks in these different groups, it s oftentimes it s the same group of people that are getting together, you know, at a conference or an event or a retreat.
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But what elevates one over the other is all the little details.
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of how the event was set up and the things that showed up ahead of the event and the handwritten note, you know, that was waiting for you when you got into the room and all these little things that show that you actually care about the other person.
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And, you know, at the end of the day, we re all human beings, whether you re running a million dollar company or a 20 billion dollar company, we re all humans.
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And we crave that appreciation and that gratitude.
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And when people give it to us, I mean, it s
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While you see Amex with like the black card that costs five or ten grand, like people love, all levels, love to be treated special and different and VIP.
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And I think that a lot of people go and will, you know, take people out to dinner or ballgames or golf.
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or all these other consumable experiences, but very few people have mastered the art of gifting.
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And so it s one of the few levers I think that are left in business that are kind of untapped to really show that you understand the person that you care and that you re really willing to take those extra steps to make that person feel that way.
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How do we know whether it s appropriate to actually give somebody a gift and what type of gift?
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Because it seems like one of the reasons that sometimes this seems inauthentic when other people do it is because it s just kind of, hey, good meeting you for five minutes at this random event.
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Here s this thing that you can download, which is like a fake gift, right?
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And then you ve got other people who are like,
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Hey, I want to send you something real quick.
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What s your address?
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And I m like, wait, who is this again?
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And then they ask again and you give them like your mailing address for your office or something.
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And then this weird thing comes for you and you re like, oh, cool.
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And then the card s like, when can I be on your show or whatever?
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Not that that s ever happened to me, of course, but right now there s all kinds
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of stuff like that, and it s just kind of like, ugh.
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And those are obvious examples of when it s not appropriate.
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Are there examples of when it s like, okay, this is the type of person where it s not only appropriate but would yield some benefit in the long run or the short run if we were able to do this, if we were able to knock something out of the park?
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Yeah, I think that one of the biggest things that you have to ask yourself is what are your real intentions?
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Are you trying to give something as like a bait and switch or as a, hey, I m gonna give this to get this?
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I think everybody has a desire for there to be profit in their business and doors to be open and relationships to be deepened.
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But most people have this short term mindset where I give this and it s like a mousetrap.
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It better yield me this result.
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And so I think that if you can go into it with the intentions of I m gonna look to deepen this relationship and add value, that could be with opening a door, a connection, a referral, sending a gift, acknowledging them as a human being, finding out that they love the Cubs and sending them something that s Cubs related.
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I think at the end of the day, like having that long term mindset, I think Dan Martell talked about like having that 50 year mindset when you re building relationships.
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And when you do that, that s your foundation.
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I think that all of a sudden, like people can feel when like there s strings attached.
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to things versus anytime I sit down with somebody, I do this probably three to 400 times a year, if I get 30 minutes with somebody, 30 minutes of their time, if they re a CEO or business owner or a high-profile person, their time s worth hundreds if not thousands or tens of thousands of dollars per hour.
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So 30 minutes of their time is one of the most valuable resources that I could get from them.
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And so I send them a gift just thanking them for carving out the time or whatever else with the knives and the different things that we do.
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And it s usually a $100 to $300 gift.
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And I don t ask for anything in return.
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It s just an acknowledgement of the 30 minutes or hour, hour and a half, whatever the time amount was.
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And it s amazing how people are like, what s the catch?
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Like sometimes people are like, come on, John, like, what do you really
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And I m like, you gave me 30 minutes of your time.
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I don t need anything else.
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And I m hopeful that, you know, maybe a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years down the road, that maybe there s things that will come out of it.
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But I ve literally given out gifts like that where I m like, I can t connect the dots myself.
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I can t figure out how I could ever collaborate with this person.
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And then like six years later.
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they change, they open up a new company, they start a podcast, my cousin needs a job and they happen to be in that industry or whatever it is, there ends up being a reason for why that relationship was established.
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But I think having that long-term mindset of just acknowledging people, and then when you do it, not doing goofy things like,
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gift cards and jams and cheap bottles of wine.
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Gift like you mean it.
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And gift in a way that s significant.
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If you say you re world-class and first-class and you re giving to other world-class and first-class people, you wouldn t take people out to McDonald s for dinner.
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You take them out to Morton s or some high-end vegetarian restaurant or whatever.
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Most people will take people out to really, really high-profile dinners and wine and
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Clubs and golf outings and then they gift like they re on food stamps like hey Here s the $20 bar of chocolate with my logo on it like thank you so much for sitting down with me like it s the cheesiest stuff on the planet and they don t realize that Literally when you get that kind of stuff like you think less of the person not more of them That s what the big thing is you can actually spend money to have a negative consequence.
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I don t think people recognize that and
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That s a really good point.
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I never thought about the idea that if I were to take you out to dinner, like, hey man, thanks for lending me this expensive thing that I used.
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I ll take you out for a steak.
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I would take you out for a meal that would be 50 plus, maybe 100 bucks, right?
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And so, it s lame, it would be super lame that if instead of that, I was like, you know, I m gonna give John a gift.
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Let me send over one of my kinda cheap, little snaggy polo shirts that s not quite, that s kinda itchy, that has like my logo cheaply embroidered on it.
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It s like the cheap embroidery where the lines connect and you can see it.
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It s horrible.
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Thank you so much.
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Go be a billboard for me.
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Right.
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It s like the opposite of appreciation.
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It s actually like manipulation at the highest level.
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Like I m going to try to fake like I m saying thank you by getting you to advertise my brand and nobody on the planet like
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gets that and says, oh my gosh, nobody s ever given me a polo shirt before.
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Wow, I feel so appreciated.
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Now they may, because they re polite, say thank you, but in their head they re thinking like, where s the nearest goodwill?
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I need to give this away.
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Like 99 out of 100 of those polos and jackets and coolers and whatever people pass out end up being re-gifted or they get it and they re like, I feel bad throwing this away.
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Like that s not very green, but I m not gonna carry this.
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Like it s the tackiest thing in the world to carry something around with a big old logo on it.
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But people do it and they spend billions of dollars every year doing it thinking that they re smart marketers when really they re like actually doing the opposite of what they re trying to do.
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That s a really good point, right?
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So you can spend the money and end up making a lower impression that if you just didn t give that person anything but called them and said thanks or sent them a text, you d be better off than like, here s a branded pen, right, or whatever.
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Here s a mug that has my logo on it that you can use to have your coffee, because you probably don t have any cups at your house.
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Somebody gave me a mug recently, and I used to make fun of mugs.
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They literally call themselves a gift maker.
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They re like a potter, a clay person.
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They made a mug that tells my whole life story, and then they made one for my wife that tells my wife s whole life story.
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But it s a $200 mug.
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It literally, it took him five hours to make these mugs.
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He drove eight and a half hours to hand deliver them to me.
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I d never met the guy.
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He read the book.
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and was inspired to listen to a couple podcasts.
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He was like, man, I just want to do something nice for this guy.
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I just love what he does and teaches like he is cut from my cloth.
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It s a $200 mug.
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Now, I have lots of mugs in my house, but because he made the gift all about me, nothing about him, his logo, nothing about him is on the mug.
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It s all about me.
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My wife literally got tears in her eyes and invited him to stay at our house that night because she didn t want him to drive eight and a half hours home after driving eight and a half hours to our town because she was so moved by a freaking mug.
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But it s the coolest, most personal, one of the most personal gifts I ve ever been given.
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And it was a fricking mug, but it was done right.
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And because it was done right, I m talking about it to your millions of or hundreds of thousands of listeners because it moved me.
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So what do you usually give them?
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Because if we re talking some smack about polos and mugs that aren t handcrafted, what does work?
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One of the hot buttons that s pretty common for most people is taking care of their inner circle.
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You know, so whether you re in business or personal, like you have these people that, you know, like when I travel and you travel, like we get taken care of really nice.
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We stay at nice places, you know, fly well, eat at great restaurants.
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Like it s hard to get on my radar.
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But if somebody does something nice for my inner circle, so my wife, my kids, or my assistant, all of a sudden you get me because I look like the hero to my inner circle.
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And the inner circle now is an advocate in talking about, because they re not used to being included in the golf and the bourbon and the cigars and the different things that I get invited to.
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A lot of times it s giving gifts that include that inner circle and family.
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And so originally one of our go-to products, and to this day is still one of the top,
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It sounds silly.
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It s like in business, really?
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You give these and it s like, yeah, it works really well.
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And it s the knives.
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It s the Cutco knives.
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And the reason is, is because everybody, whether you re 25 years old or you re 75 years old, like most people have a kitchen in their house, they eat or entertain or host or whatever.
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And so giving something that s high end or handmade, practical, that s personalized, like when we send out, I send out a quarter million dollars a year with the gifts, whether it s a knife or whether it s a mug or whether it s a piece of leather, none of it has my logo on it ever.
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It has to be all about the other person.
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So it has their name, their spouse s name, their family name.
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If they own a company, maybe their logo.
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I call them practical.
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luxury.
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So like the knives are really popular because I can take and give one knife and it s still very useful.
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I don t have to spend like three grand on a full set of Cutco knives and give like a chef knife or something simple, even something unsexy like a portfolio.
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Like most people, you know, when they go to a conference or an event or a meeting, they want to have something to write down.
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SPEAKER_00
And most people give like these cheap, cheesy portfolios from China that have a logo the size of a softball on it.
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SPEAKER_00
And so when we give a portfolio, it s $100 to $200 portfolio because it s the one that I m hoping, and in many cases, they ll have it for decades and maybe even pass it down to their kids or grandkids.
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SPEAKER_00
So it s not always the most sexy things on the planet, but whatever category we re in, like we don t do watches very often because if I give you a really nice Seiko watch that costs like $400 and you have a Rolex on your wrist, as much as you think that Seiko is nice, you re not going to take the $5,000 watch off and put the $400 watch on.
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And so I tell people, avoid categories where you can t give best in class.
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All right, back to the show.
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Like if you got a nice metal pen with something engraved on it, you d be like, dang, that s awesome.
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But if you got a Bic pen or a plastic one with a logo printed on it, you d be like, ugh, where do I get rid of this garbage?
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SPEAKER_02
Even schwag we give out for the art of charm, a lot of people are really into our brand, so we have hats.
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SPEAKER_01
and the hats are nice, and they re embroidered well, and they look cool, and people love them, which was actually surprising.
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SPEAKER_01
Originally, we just made them for a few of us, and those are great, but yeah, you can totally see the difference between that and the trucker version where there s a soft, foamy front and the open back, and on it is kind of like crappily screen-printed.
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SPEAKER_01
Medini Brothers Consulting Company or whatever, you re never gonna wear it, right?
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SPEAKER_01
So best in class, it really does have to be
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SPEAKER_01
like that, it can t just be something that you re gonna use once and throw away as well.
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SPEAKER_01
It has to be something where, or should be something where, they re using this knife, I mean the knife you gave me is in the kitchen, has the Art of Charm logo engraved on it, it s awesome, super sharp.
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SPEAKER_01
We ended up breaking it by mistake, I can t remember why, but then we sent it to the company and they replaced it.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t even know, they must have our logo on file?
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SPEAKER_01
Of course.
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SPEAKER_01
Because we were like, oh, shoot, oh, it s guaranteed.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, well, we at least can get the same one without our logo.
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SPEAKER_01
And they didn t send one without the logo.
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SPEAKER_01
They re-engraved it.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s the beauty of having the right partners and suppliers like Cutco.
2
SPEAKER_00
We move millions of dollars worth of knives for them.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so one of the agreements that we have with them is if they guarantee their product for life for everybody, no matter who buys it.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if you get something that s sentimental, literally like meant something and it has your brand on it, like it should be replaced the way that it was.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that makes a difference because every time you pick it up and use it subconsciously,
2
SPEAKER_00
you remember who gave it to you, when they gave it, why, or at least the emotion, the positive feeling subconsciously every time you or your significant other or people come over.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not rocket science.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you re gonna give a hat, give the best frickin  hat on the planet.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the beautiful thing about Art of Charm and certain groups like Cadre and Mastermind Talks is they re tribes that people actually want to associate with the brand.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so one of our rules of thumb is
2
SPEAKER_00
If your brand is like Under Armour or the Cubs and the brand actually adds value to the product, then you can put your logo on it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s almost like a fraternity.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like they want to associate with that brand because it s part of their identity.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think that your listeners, you ve built such a close relationship with them where they want to associate with the art of charm.
2
SPEAKER_00
So the logo means something, but most companies, it s like XYZ accounting firm or Billy Bob s trucking or UPS, like nobody is, Oh my gosh, I got a piece of swag from UPS.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like I m gonna have to wear that proudly.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like maybe if you work there or started the company, or maybe if you re a NASCAR follower and your NASCAR team wears it or whatever else, but in general, most brands,
2
SPEAKER_00
Most companies out there, their brand doesn t add value to the gift, so they should leave it off and make it all about the recipient, not the giver.
2
SPEAKER_01
Perfect, I love that.
2
SPEAKER_01
The idea that you, look, have to make this all about them and just forget about what s in it for you, is basically a microcosm of what we would teach for networking in general, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, give to people, help people, ABG, always be generous, instead of ABC, always be closing, or ABG, always be giving.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, I m not helping you
2
SPEAKER_01
get a job because then when you get a job you ll be able to help me that might happen but I m giving you a job because I m helping you and that s just how I roll and eventually it ll come back might not even come back from you.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve helped a ton of people do stuff and gotten them really far and then I hear from a friend of theirs five years later
2
SPEAKER_01
when they re coming through boot camp or helping me get something done, and I m like, oh, I remember that guy, and he s married and hasn t had contact with the brand for a long time and has three kids or whatever, but he told his other buddy about it, and that s what did it, and it has little tentacles, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
There s sort of ripple effects that come from this, but it only works, like, you re not sending me a knife that says, John Rulin is the man, and it s engraved on it, and I have it in my kitchen like a weirdo.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s got my own logo on it,
2
SPEAKER_01
And I know what some people are thinking.
2
SPEAKER_01
What?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s got their logo.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re going to forget.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, I know who gave me that knife.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so does Jen.
2
SPEAKER_01
I remember actually, this is a while ago.
2
SPEAKER_01
I sent you a microphone a long time ago.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve been on a lot of podcasts.
2
SPEAKER_00
Dude, your gift after the podcast still blows me away.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like it was like somebody is actually listening to what we re talking about and isn t just like, Oh, John, that s a great idea.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everybody go buy his book.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m gonna take action on this and actually freaking do something.
2
SPEAKER_00
I still have the Yeti, I still use it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s one of the most classy, practical, like it came like right away, right after the show.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was awesome.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m so glad to hear that.
2
SPEAKER_01
The reason I brought it up was not just to be like, I gave a gift too.
2
SPEAKER_01
You told me anyway that your wife said, dang, that guy just beat you at your own game.
2
SPEAKER_01
Cause mine arrived, I think before yours did.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because I sent it like right after we stopped recording.
2
SPEAKER_01
You d probably, you know, went to lunch and I was like, zing!
2
SPEAKER_01
I had like the Amazon overnight.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I just remember that and I thought like, I feel pretty good about that.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s the thing is, I wasn t just trying to beat you at your own game.
2
SPEAKER_01
There was a little bit of that because that s, you know me, that s how I am anyway.
2
SPEAKER_01
A snarky SOB like that.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it was also just like it felt really cool to be like, here s this thing that I m giving away.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it inspired me and Jason.
2
SPEAKER_01
We got some stickers and we put those on other microphones that if a guest says, oh, I don t know how this is going to work.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re like, hey, we ll send you a microphone.
2
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of people who don t do shows at all ever are like, thanks for this microphone.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you re like, how does this multi-millionaire not have a microphone?
2
SPEAKER_01
And the reason is because they don t do stinking podcasts from their house.
2
SPEAKER_01
They go to recording studios and do 60 Minutes and then they don t do other stuff like that.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s useful and it s got my freaking name and logo just right on it and it s on their desk.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s fun and useful.
2
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t have to cost a ton of money, especially when it comes to, and I wanted to sort of make that point as well, you have to give best in class, or at least really, really good in class.
2
SPEAKER_01
Microphones are, we can cheat a little, because people don t really know.
2
SPEAKER_01
So we can send them something good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, it s best in class relative to what they have.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, you have to beat what they have.
2
SPEAKER_01
which is like an Apple headset that has a microphone on it that rubs on their chin, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
And so they see this and they re like, okay, I don t really know how much this is, but it s worth much more in terms of utility, because they re not gonna buy it, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
But now they ve got this USB mic they can plug in and use, and they will use it when other people hear about them coming on Art of Charm, and they go, oh, I should have this person on our thing, and there s the microphone, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Why ever buy another one when you have this nice Art of Charm USB mic?
2
SPEAKER_01
And so if I need to ask him for something in a year, even if they don t remember where they heard about us, it s probably because they ve been moving that microphone around as a paperweight for the last 18 months, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
But you were the first one to take action and do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like if every podcaster started sending microphones, it would become part of the noise.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s part of the, what we teach people is,
2
SPEAKER_00
Everybody s spending all their money over here this way, and over here, it s a trickle at best.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s being done horribly wrong and horribly selfish and mediocre, vanilla, white toast at best.
2
SPEAKER_00
All of a sudden, you take your podcast, talking to these multi-millionaires, and probably in some cases, hundreds of millionaires, and you send them $100 mic or $200 mic, I don t know what the Yeti exactly even costs.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let s assume it was 10 grand, just so you like it more.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
But because you re the first one to take action on that, like if it was the fifth mic they had got, it d be like, okay, this is obnoxious.
2
SPEAKER_00
But because you re the first one to take action and do that, and you stand out above all other podcasters just because of that one investment with that person.
2
SPEAKER_00
And who knows what the ripple effect 30 years from now.
2
SPEAKER_00
with that person is.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s so simple, but most people are like, I don t have time for that, so I ll just send a gift card, or I don t have time for that, I ll just have my assistant send him a box of chocolates or some whatever, and they don t realize that they re missing out on these massive opportunities to put these things in motion that could have, like you said, ripple effect for years that they don t even know about.
2
SPEAKER_01
What if we re trying to gain access to somebody?
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you use gifts for that?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, for example, if you know the CEO of Starbucks  secretary because you met her or you have a contact or you know that she s the one who s been answering your email but you ve been getting kind of the stonewall, do you use gifting as a
2
SPEAKER_01
Thank you for your help so far.
2
SPEAKER_01
By the way, keep me in mind if this other person might be able to get through to them.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, are you using that at all?
2
SPEAKER_01
I hate to use the word bribe, but let s be honest, it s going in that direction a little bit anyway.
2
SPEAKER_01
You could call it a bribe.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think we call it shock and awe.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s not really a bribe because it s not like, look, I m gonna pay you to do this.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m gaining favor with you on purpose, but you re also a great person because you ve been actually replying to my email and I appreciate that.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s still genuine, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s not just a straight bribe.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I like to call it like the attention broker, which is a Gary V term.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m pre-buying their attention.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, you know, I sent them a $200 gift, a $500 gift or whatever, like their time s valuable.
2
SPEAKER_00
How many people are trying to get to access to that decision maker?
2
SPEAKER_00
And so probably 20, 30% of my business is helping companies with their dream 100 list.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they have lists of top clients that could be potential clients and they want to get time with the CEO or CFO or whoever.
2
SPEAKER_00
And we just did this for one company that was going after the chairman of the board for one of the biggest hotel chains in the world.
2
SPEAKER_00
They wanted to get a meeting with them to talk about bringing them in as a speaker.
2
SPEAKER_00
And this guy s chairman of the board, blah, blah, blah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So we sent a gift.
2
SPEAKER_00
over the top to this guy, and all the hotel brands were branded on the knives.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was like a $1,500 to $1,000 set.
2
SPEAKER_00
But we also sent a gift as well to the assistant.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it was like a $300, $400 gift, asking her to carve some time out to sit down and blah, blah, blah.
2
SPEAKER_00
It worked like magic.
2
SPEAKER_00
People send so-and-so gifts all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was blown away when there was a separate package.
2
SPEAKER_00
I opened it up and it was personalized to me and the handwritten note and the thoughtfulness involved.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it just showed a level of class that most people don t have when they treat me like a gatekeeper or a pawn versus giving me the same respect that they d give this
3
SPEAKER_01
CEO.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so absolutely, we use the same mindset of kind of loving on the people and adding value and showing them that they re different than any other company that s calling on them.
3
SPEAKER_01
And oftentimes, we end up sending things that are nicer than even their billion dollar clients, because we re willing to put ourselves out there and say we re going to pre buy the attention, we re going to show value on the front end and show that we re different.
3
SPEAKER_01
And because of that, our hit rate is pretty high for our clients.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now,
3
SPEAKER_01
The gifts end up being sometimes crazy and sometimes you have to send like, to get Giddemer s attention for myself, I sent him 18 gifts in a row.
3
SPEAKER_01
Every month for 18 months, he got a gift.
3
SPEAKER_01
And eventually he finally said, John, come hang out at my house.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like you got my attention.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love your persistence and your consistency.
3
SPEAKER_01
And now he s a buddy.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now I can call him up and text him and we go hang out and have a beer, no problem, watch the Phillies or whatever his sports teams play.
3
SPEAKER_01
But it took 18 gifts in a row to get through to somebody at that level.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, there s another way to do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
You could start your own show.
3
SPEAKER_00
Please don t do that, actually.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s not something you need to do.
3
SPEAKER_01
I saw that article.
3
SPEAKER_00
I saw that article.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Thanks for listening and supporting the Art of Charm.
3
SPEAKER_00
For a list of all the amazing sponsors and discount codes, visit theartofcharm.com slash advertisers.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, back to the show.
3
SPEAKER_00
So on that note, it seems like, and correct me if I m overstating this here, but for example, the Art of Charm, I ve got a platform, it kinda happened by accident, now it s deliberate.
3
SPEAKER_00
I love having this platform, getting access to cool people as a result because my value to them is look at all this exposure.
3
SPEAKER_00
but a lot of folks go, I can t get in touch with these folks because I don t have a platform.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s gonna take me five to 10 years to build one.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t have that kind of time, or I don t want to invest that kind of time, or quite frankly, I m not sure I could build something like you guys have built at the Art of Charm, which is very fair.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there s a lot that comes together for this.
3
SPEAKER_00
It seems like gifting
3
SPEAKER_00
while maybe not a replacement for this type of thing directly for large exposure, is definitely a shortcut versus just cold emailing as many people as you want to reach and hoping that some reply or are bored or are friends with your cousin from high school days or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there s some value here to leaning into the gifting thing if you don t have another way to get ahold of someone, and frankly, even if you do.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, our motto is, and it s actually from, you know, the fricking Bible of all places, but a gift ushers you into the presence of kings in the great.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think that if you gift like a king, you get treated like a king because most people gift like paupers because, you know, I help people all the time.
3
SPEAKER_01
They d come to us with their list of
3
SPEAKER_01
here s the hundred people that we d want to interview on our podcast, or here s the hundred people that we d really want to have as clients.
3
SPEAKER_01
Most people treat their business and their platforms like the shotgun approach.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, let s put the trap out as big and the net as wide as possible and attract as many people.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we re kind of the opposite because you re spending the money that we re spending to go after these people, you know, and some hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands even to go after.
3
SPEAKER_01
But when you only have a list of 20
3
SPEAKER_01
game changers that could totally transform your business and cause 10,000% growth, you re willing to invest quite a bit of money to get those 20 people s attention.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because most companies, they don t need 200,000 followers or a million followers to be successful.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oftentimes, it s like, if you look at most companies, it s like, I just need these 50 people, these 25 people, these 100 customers.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, Seth Godin talks about it all the time.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you had the 100 of the right clients, maybe some companies that are in the billions in revenue, if they had 1,000 of the right clients,
3
SPEAKER_01
it would be a game changer for their business.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so having that kind of a rifle approach where I know exactly who I m going after and I m going to put all of my resources to go after those people versus spending a bunch of money on advertising and taking 10 years to build a platform.
3
SPEAKER_01
To me, we can accelerate things way faster with gifting because we know who we want to go after and we re able to really go after them with as much intensity as possible versus, I mean, you re really playing the slow game, which it builds and builds and builds on itself.
3
SPEAKER_01
And after 10 years, you re like, you have the snowball that s rolling down the hill, that s massive.
3
SPEAKER_01
But most people don t want to wait 10 years.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t recommend waiting 10 years either.
3
SPEAKER_00
A lot of people are like, wow, you know, this is so great.
3
SPEAKER_00
You really thought ahead, but I m not going to front like this was just like, oh, this is really fun.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I like doing it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then a few years ago, I mean, more than six years into it, I thought,
3
SPEAKER_00
I m not bad at this, and it s really fun.
3
SPEAKER_00
What if I lean into it, and it was already a business, but it wasn t like, I m obsessed with podcasting.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was like, I like talking to people.
3
SPEAKER_00
Podcasting is a good medium for that.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I had already built the skill set.
3
SPEAKER_00
I started to like it more because I was getting better at it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Does that make sense?
3
SPEAKER_00
That s not something most people can commit to, and I don t recommend that they do.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t recommend you go to film school and start producing shorts on YouTube so that one day you can get a free book, or a knife.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, love the knife, man, but let s be honest, if that was the best thing I got out of the whole experience of podcasting, it would be pretty crappy ROI.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
It definitely makes sense that this is a little bit of a shortcut or possibly some lubrication there, but it has to be done right or it would have the opposite effect.
3
SPEAKER_00
Do you ever decide that a gift is, look, I m donating to your charity of choice instead of an actual object, or are you always sticking with
3
SPEAKER_00
an item for various reasons?
3
SPEAKER_01
No, there s times where I think that sometimes people confuse charity and confuse gifting.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like you d never say, instead of going out to dinner with you, I decided to make a $100 donation in your name to XYZ charity.
3
SPEAKER_01
The other person would be like,
3
SPEAKER_01
That s really weird, like you didn t want to spend time with me?
3
SPEAKER_01
People do at the end of the year, like, hey, in lieu of gifts, we made a donation in your honor to XYZ Fund and the United Way, blah, blah, blah.
3
SPEAKER_01
To me, it s usually done because people don t know what to give and they re lazy.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think it communicates the wrong thing to people to say in lieu of a gift.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now, I think it s great to say, hey, we had an amazing year or we want to give back as a company, but don t try to tie it and get double credit with it being a gift.
3
SPEAKER_01
Just give to the community or give to the charity.
3
SPEAKER_01
But don t try to tie that as the gift because I think they re two separate things.
3
SPEAKER_01
They re definitely, you know, you could make a donation to somebody s honor, but don t try to tie that as the gift.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think that s a cheesy kind of cheap way to kind of cop out actually doing the gift.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so we do both.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s not one or the other.
3
SPEAKER_01
But there s times where I donate to people s charity and support them because I think that s a great relationship builder, but it s not a gift.
3
SPEAKER_00
that does make sense, so it s not the same thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s actually closer to a bribe, actually, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
I would think donating to a charity, depending on when it s done, anyway, because a lot of people do that before they have some sort of project or before, and I see this all the time with authors, and I m not criticizing the process, it s just how it works, but I see a lot of like, yeah, I m gonna come generously donate my time to come speak to you, your group or whatever, you have to buy $35,000 worth of my book, though.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s just like, okay, but don t worry, we re going to gift it to the audience.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, all right, this is starting to look a little transactional.
3
SPEAKER_00
I understand that this is something that is actually separate from that entirely.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that needs to be sort of highlighted.
3
SPEAKER_00
What type of budget should you have for this?
3
SPEAKER_00
Does it matter?
3
SPEAKER_00
If we re doing something, and you sort of touched on this earlier, but what if I m in college and I m trying to build a startup business or working on my own or I m some kind of freelancer, dropping one, two, $300 gifts on the regular, it could make you homeless pretty quick, I think.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I ll say that I started the business when I interned with Cutco and created their corporate gifting strategy and program.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was 21 years old in college.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so every time I bought a carving set for $200 and send it out to a CEO that was a prospect or whatever else, like it was a big deal.
3
SPEAKER_01
Might as well have cost $20,000.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I understand the impact and it s scary.
3
SPEAKER_01
What I ll say is that
3
SPEAKER_01
I reinvest 5% of profits back into our clients and most important relationship of net profit.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you make a million bucks, that s 50 grand minimum should go back into those core relationships, which, you know, some people are like, Oh my gosh, that s a lot.
3
SPEAKER_01
Other people like, actually, we re going to do 10% because I wouldn t have that million dollars if it wasn t for those customers or those people.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I m glad to reinvest 100 grand to ensure that that million dollars comes in next year and hopefully it grows and referrals come from it and to keep kind of planting the seeds.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I would say that if you re on the small end, pick your times.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think it s better to do three gifts really well than to do 30 or 300 gifts at an average level.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I think a lot of times like we didn t have the money for a website and
3
SPEAKER_01
crazy brochures and whatever else.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I remember spending a dollar on my business cards back like 10 years ago.
3
SPEAKER_01
And people are like, you re going to go broke handing out dollar business cards.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, well, I don t have money for five and 10 and 20 hour brochures.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t have money for a website.
3
SPEAKER_01
So when I hand a business card to somebody, I want to communicate that we re for real and that we actually practice what we preach.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it was amazing, like the response that we get from clients.
3
SPEAKER_01
They didn t care at all about a brochure, but when they saw the business card was made out of metal and it was beautiful and whatever else, they re like,
3
SPEAKER_01
So you guys are for real, like this is like what you teach.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, yeah, they re like, this is crazy.
3
SPEAKER_01
And they couldn t wrap their mind around.
3
SPEAKER_01
Instead of spending two cents, they spent a dollar on a business card.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I think picking times and places in your industry and your business where most people go really cheap, go really expensive and really expensive might be a dollar.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if everybody s going really expensive, go
4
SPEAKER_00
really cheap and cut it out altogether because you going 5% higher than your competition is just more noise.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like you have to go, in our opinion, 10 to 20 notches above where anybody else is to really kind of break above the noise and really stand out.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I see a lot of people having pissing matches, whether you re an independent contractor or whether you re a $20 billion company like
4
SPEAKER_00
I see it with trade shows.
4
SPEAKER_00
I see it with a lot of marketing and advertising.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like it doesn t do anything.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I d rather play in a completely different ocean than, you know, fight over these scraps.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so that would be my encouragement is you don t have to spend the most.
4
SPEAKER_00
In most cases, we re working with clients, you know, bin market companies where they re going up against the Goliath.
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They re not going to outspend the other person, the other company.
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So they have to be smart.
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And when they invest a dollar, they want $20 to come back.
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And that s our kind of core client.
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And that s what I encourage.
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I don t care if you re a college student or what size company you are, you can still take those same principles and apply them to your business.
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if we re doing this in our personal life, let s just ditch the business and the networking angle for gifting, how can we put a little bit more into our gifts with our friends, family, significant others, so that we just knock it out of the park?
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Because I can imagine a lot of people are really good at gift giving when it comes to networking and business relationships and things like that, and then when it comes to our significant other, we re like, here s that Whitman sampler you always love, right?
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And we just go right back to bad habits, because we re not thinking about these relationships in the same way, of course.
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Yeah, I think the biggest thing is having, you know, gratitude, appreciation, you know, the five minute journal talks about daily gratitude and appreciation for people and in your life.
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And oftentimes it s your friends and your family and your kids and your significant other.
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And I think that if you can have that year round mindset, a lot of times people will reach out to me like, John, I m not creative.
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I m not a good gift giver.
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And I m like, it s because
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you spend more time on your fantasy football league than you do on thinking about how to show gratitude to your, you know, your wife.
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If you put an intention daily and you start listening to what the other person says and you have a little Evernote account on your phone and she says, Hey, I like this.
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Hey, I m thinking about doing this.
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Hey, I m really frustrated with this.
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Like those are opportunities for you to say, huh,
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That would be a really cool thing to do.
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And you put it in your little phone and out of the blue versus waiting until, you know, anniversary, birthday, Christmas, you know, pick two other times throughout the year, maybe five times throughout the year that you re like, I m going to get her that or do that for her or them.
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It s amazing how when you have that year round mindset of gratitude, no matter who you re appreciating and you start to just listen and put intention and a little bit of energy towards it and maybe do a little bit of stalking on their Pinterest or Facebook page.
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or Twitter or whatever else, like, you start to pick up little clues.
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I mean, I m a farm boy from Ohio.
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Like, I didn t grow up, like, hanging out at country clubs and, like, shopping at Nordstrom s or Neiman Marcus.
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Like, I grew up, my mom going to, like, a garage sale and spending $5 on our entire wardrobe for the next five years.
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So, like, the idea of doing high-end gifting and whatever else, like, didn t come naturally to me, but because I had the right mentors that modeled it and taught me these things about how to think about
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things year round and how to be out of the box and how to do things, you know, kind of I call it surprise and delight.
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And I call it planned randomness.
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Like I know when people are going to get things.
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They don t know what s coming, but I already kind of have laid out like over the next 12 months, here s some things I m going to do for my wife or my kids.
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And it s just like anything else.
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Like if you have a plan and you put a little effort towards it, you look like the man of the year.
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It s just a little bit of extra effort.
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That s it.
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Is there a system that you use for putting in, quote unquote, putting in more thought?
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Because it can be kind of tricky, right?
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Especially if we re really bad at that.
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You re right, we do put more thought into maybe our fantasy football team than we do gift giving.
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But are there any times that you re using where you re like, oh, I m taking a mental note of this thing that my wife likes so that I can write it down.
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And then when it comes time for gifting, it s like, this is happening.
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For me, it s always easier to notice something when it happens, when it arises, than to think about what happened maybe a year ago that would be a good gift, right?
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It s like a restaurant or something that she wants to do.
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If she s like, oh, it would be so cool if we were able to go check that place out, I ll write it in my phone instead of one day I m like, oh, I should do something nice for Jen.
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What was that, does she wanna go anywhere?
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What s that place?
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I can just refer to a document.
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It makes it a lot easier.
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Oh, yeah, Evernote is money for me.
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I mean, when I have a thought, I put it in there.
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If I m at my computer, I email it to myself in Evernote.
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You know, I have my Lindsay file for my wife.
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You know, when she makes comments on things, when I hear things, when I come across something on Facebook that she posted about or whatever, like, yeah, you can t wait until the moment of like, oh, crap, what was that thing?
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If you don t write it down somewhere that s consistent, and I think Evernote is one of the more easy places to kind of document and have on your phone and email pictures and whatever else to yourself and kind of have everything automatically categorized.
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But yeah, if you think, oh, I m going to remember this, like,
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Three months go by, you re screwed.
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And you re like racking your brain.
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Then you end up spending like three hours trying to go like look up websites and whatever else.
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The more you can do in the moment and capture it, the better, period.
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It s about that time to start shopping for gifts for those significant others.
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So get out that Evernote document or just use the notes application on your phone and start paying attention, dang it.
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So actually you have a PDF of, it s like the top 10 worst gifts ever given or something like that.
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Am I getting, am I close?
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Yeah, yeah.
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It s a 10 mistakes to avoid when you re gifting.
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And some of them are definitely not intuitive.
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One of the things I think, especially in the business world that s been over gifted, so it s on the top 10 list not to give, is Apple.
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If something s being given away for free test drives, when you test drive a car, you get a free iPad mini or whatever else.
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It s lost its coolness factor and uniqueness factor.
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Most people already have Apple products, so Apple s on there.
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Food consumables are on there.
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You know, people like food allergies and people are on diets and all this other kind of stuff.
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So we put together, like, do you want a gift on your own?
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Like, you don t need our help.
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Like, here s kind of the bumpers so you don t go in the gutter, you know, bumper bowling.
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So, yeah, it s the top 10 worst gifts to avoid.
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whether it s Christmas or really any time throughout the year.
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You re right, if you get a food allergy, and you throw that in there, or somebody s like, yeah, we don t eat processed food.
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I mean, it s just useless, and then you look like a dummy, right, for doing it.
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Apple stuff is counterintuitive as well, because man, how cool would it have been a few years ago to get the brand new iPad Mini, but now it s like, if I wanted that, I would have bought it, and I did buy it, and I stood in line for it.
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I don t need this mid-range one that s not as good as the one I have.
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And then otherwise, that same person gets it, and then just re-gifts it, because if they wanted it, they would have bought it for themselves generally.
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Yeah, it s that people think, Oh, Apple s a cool brand.
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I m like, I have an iPhone.
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Yes, it s a cool brand.
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But every six months, the next one comes out.
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So you have a six month shelf life on something you spent $500 for and the likelihood of it being re gifted and forgotten about is super high.
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So spend your $500 elsewhere.
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Yeah, especially with that stuff.
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And people are thinking, no, I would kill for an iPad mini.
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But let s be honest, you re probably not doing the type of thing where if you show up to that meeting or your test drive that car, you re not in that same market if you re that jonesing for that device.
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because that company s giving it away because they expect you to pay them a whole lot more for the product that you just tried.
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If you re in the market for a $100,000 car, cool, go test drive it.
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You won t care about the Mini anyway.
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So it s really not a good gift on just multiple fronts that I would not, frankly, have thought of.
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John, you re the man.
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What can I say?
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I appreciate you.
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Well, dude, they can go download it, giftologybook.com slash charm if they want it, and thanks so much for having me on the show, Jordan.
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This has been a lot of fun.
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Interesting stuff, you know, gift giving, when I first heard this topic from John, I was like, yeah, I m not sure, let s see what you got.
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But he s really, really good at developing relationships.
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He s really, really good at the authenticity angle while leveraging gifts really, really well.
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And I just, I love the way that this can work for anybody at any budget.
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It works for people who don t have a platform.
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It works for people trying to reach out to influencers.
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And it s just genuinely really good advice.
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The book Giftology, of course, linked in the show notes as well.
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And if you want to thank John, we ll have his Twitter linked in the show notes as well as my own Twitter where you can engage with me.
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I m at The Art of Charm.
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Now remember, you can tap our album art in most mobile podcast players to see the show notes
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for this episode.
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We ll link to the show notes directly on your phone.
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And Boot Camps, our live programs.
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People ask me about those all the time.
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Go to bootcamp.theartofcharm.com if you want to learn from us directly.
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It s the only way really to do it.
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Intensive week-long programs, super fun, super transformative.
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We do sell out a few months in advance.
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So if you re thinking about it a little bit, get in touch ASAP to get some info from us so you can plan ahead.
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And if you just want to dip your toes in the water, we ve got our Art of Charm Challenge at theartofcharm.com slash challenge.
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You can text charmed in the states, C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444, or if you re anywhere else in the world, just go to theartofcharm.com slash challenge.
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The challenge is about improving your networking and connection skills, inspiring those around you to develop personal and professional relationships with you.
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and we ll email you our fundamentals toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show.
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And I also do regular videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward.
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It ll make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker.
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That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charm.
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in the United States to 33444.
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For full show notes for this and all previous episodes, head on over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFilippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
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Show notes on the website are by Robert Fogerty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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So stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to The Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.