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This is the art of charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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Welcome to the Art of Charm.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Today we re talking with my friend Jenny Blake, author of Pivot, The Only Move That Matters is your next one.
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You should listen to this show because we re gonna talk about how to make yourself more agile in your career, how to make sure you re not afraid to make a move forward instead of staying stagnant or worse, going for plan B, and how to actually pivot and why it s not as drastic or dramatic as you might think and why if you don t prepare for a pivot, you might be pivoted.
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So we ll show you how to prepare in advance and last but not least,
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how to know when it s time to quit your day job and go all in on your side gig or make the leap to a different job or career entirely.
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So enjoy this one with Jenny Blake.
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And by the way, if you re new to the show, we d love to send you some top episodes and the AOC toolbox where we discuss things like body language and nonverbal communication, persuasion, networking, negotiation, mentorship, everything else we teach here at the Art of Charm.
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If you re in the United States, just text charmed to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444.
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Everywhere else, go to theartofcharm.com.
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Also at theartofcharm.com slash podcast, you can find the full show notes for this and all previous episodes.
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Alright, here s Jenny Blake.
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You re an interesting character because you have done the things that you write about in your book, and seemingly it s not just, here s what other people should do from my ivory tower perspective.
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You ve reinvented your career and moved around quite a bit for somebody who s had successful careers instead of just very low level, right?
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Because it s very easy to say,
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You know, you need to pivot, you need to change and do this if everything is kind of entry level.
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But you ve had some serious roles with Google and other companies as well, and you ve written a couple of books.
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So tell us a little bit about why you decided to write Pivot.
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Sure.
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Well, thanks for saying that, first of all.
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And I have no interest in being up in some ivory tower and speaking from a soapbox of success.
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That s not interesting to me, nor do I think it s that helpful for people.
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The real reason I decided to write Pivot was leaving Google was a tough decision.
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And I joke that it was like breaking up with Brad Pitt.
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Everyone would react like, you really think you can do better than Google?
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How are you going to feed yourself?
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So leaving was not an easy choice.
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And I rode the adrenaline of that for about a year and a half.
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This was back in 2011-2012.
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And then I just hit another wall.
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I already thought I was entitled.
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You know, am I just one of those entitled millennials that s never going to be happy?
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How come I m not happy at Google?
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And then when it happened again, two years into running my own business, my first book was Life After College.
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And I realized I don t want to talk about that the rest of my career.
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I had another wall.
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And once again, I felt crazy.
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And once again, I felt like I was losing my mind.
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And this time I didn t have a paycheck to fund that exploration.
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So as my bank account dwindled to zero,
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I had two weeks, I didn t have January rent.
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This is January 2014.
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And I had to either move out of New York, go get another job and fold my business.
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And that s the moment that I looked at.
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I ve read over 400 personal development, much like you, Jordan, personal development, business, fitness, finance books, and I was pissed.
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Like, why aren t any of them working?
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I ve been reading this stuff for 15 years.
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Why isn t it working?
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And so it was only when I started to really focus on what was working in my life and business.
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And that s when pivot came to me of not just how can people be as agile as startups, but how can we shift methodically in a new direction by leveraging what we already have.
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And so that was the crux of the book, because I think we re all going to have to do this much more frequently.
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Well, I agree with you there, and I think there s an interesting takeaway from just the first bit of this, especially in that you thought, am I just someone who s never going to be satisfied?
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And who knows, maybe that s part of your personality or your DNA.
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Obviously, first of all, you re not alone in that.
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Obviously, there s tons of people that feel the same way, or we would,
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well, your book would ve sold one copy, right?
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So still, you ve already beaten that record, given how many people are ordering this after this.
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But I think the reason that this stuff matters is because you did pivot, yeah, it would ve been weird if you were talking about what to do after college at age 45, right?
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And that s where we find most of our career advice, from kind of way too removed.
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And you were able to write this book to teach people how to pivot,
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early enough that it makes sense and they re not looking at things like sunk cost.
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I ve already been at Google for three years.
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I m gonna just start over?
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That s too scary not doing it.
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And then it becomes 13 years and you re stagnating.
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Google or not.
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Right.
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I joke that for anyone listening to a podcast like yours, we don t have FOMO, we have font.
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Fear of not trying.
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Which is that I would have rather left Google and know that I at least gave it a shot to make it on my own that have
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never even tried out of fear.
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And I will also say that, you know, I kept calling what I was going through, it was happening every few years, I m having a midlife crisis, or I m having a quarter life crisis.
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And I hear that from people all the time.
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But what s weird is that why do we have this expectation that, oh, we get two of these, our allowance is two of these in a lifetime.
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And instead, what you said, I ve been shocked by how many people come up to me and they re like,
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I need this.
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I m also trying to figure out what s next.
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I also hit a career plateau.
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And the big secret to pivot is that when we get better at it, the pivot points are less shocking.
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So it becomes a mindset and a habit and a set of practices.
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And entrepreneurship certainly teaches that, but everybody can learn this.
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And that way, if you re constantly in a mindset of learning, experimenting, the pivot points aren t so jarring.
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To be clear, pivot is, I think it s a borrowed tech term for moving in a different direction.
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It s basically what it sounds like, but it s a fancy term for changing careers, correct?
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Just so people aren t confused.
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Yes.
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And the difference because yes, I definitely co-opted this from Silicon Valley, which is where I m born and raised.
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And I love applying tech to life in general.
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But typically, when startups talk about pivoting, it s plan B, their original strategy failed.
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So they have to pivot in order to save the business from collapse.
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The interesting thing that I found while researching this book is that for individuals, pivot is plan A. That actually, we re all being asked to ask and answer this question, what s next?
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Every few years, we don t have the luxury of the same job for 30 years anymore, at least with rare exception.
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So for us, pivoting is the new normal, that actually it s on us to be really proactive about it and not see it as, oh, I ve failed at something.
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Pivoting is actually a product of our success.
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That s an important point, right?
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Because otherwise you end up with the problems we mentioned earlier, which is I don t wanna have to change because everybody else or myself, I think there s a fear factor here, right?
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Oh, if I change jobs, my parents are gonna go, see, I told you that that plan was not working, or my friends are gonna think I failed in this career, and that s why I m changing over.
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Instead, we should see these pivots, these routine changes, these evolutions,
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as a good thing and as something that is completely par for the course when you re doing well, not something you do because you re dropping the ball at Google and they re gonna fire you so you quit, right?
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Right, and in engineering there s a term, redundancy, which is having multiple systems in place, much like even how you record podcasts, you know, you have multiple recordings going.
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And for you, for example, right, you went to law school, you were doing securities law in New York, didn t you start podcasting kind of on the side?
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Yeah, it was a side gig.
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Although my pivot was, hey, you re probably not gonna have a job soon because no one s gonna have a job because 2008 happened, largely as a result of the work that we re doing here at this firm.
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And I thought, oh, time for a pivot.
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Plan B.
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That s right.
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Well, that s the whole point is that you either pivot or get pivoted.
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So let s just say to I know that this is really scary.
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I mean, I was in the thick of it where I did not know how I was going to pay the rent.
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I was eating power bars for dinner.
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I would walk by restaurants in New York and be sad.
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Like when can I afford to be back in there laughing with friends again?
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I mean, so I get it because career changes do seem to threaten our most fundamental needs on Maslow s hierarchy, food, clothing, shelter.
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However, if we
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let that fear overrule us, then you get pivoted like what you were describing with 2008.
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And as a result of what you were noticing in the market, and then kind of starting something on the side, you did move into this new direction and are now very successful at it.
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But it s not like you would have known when you first started podcasting.
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Oh, I should go all in on this new thing because I m psychic and I can see the future.
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You know,
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No, and in fact, people always say, what would you do if you had to do it over again?
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I don t have the energy to do it over again.
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That s probably a separate conversation, but I don t know if I would be able to do it over again.
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It was just it was very hard, but I will say that I never would have been happy being an attorney.
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I mean, it s just it s laughable to think I would have stayed in that career.
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And yet I know people.
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from my own class that stayed in that career that are just freaking miserable or have changed within the legal field to something else.
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One of my friends actually is a lawyer at Google as well, and he likes it, he enjoys it, but we were all at Big Law for a while, and you pivot within careers, it s kind of seen as normal, right?
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You work for a big law firm, then you go in-house somewhere, nobody thinks that
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that s weird, but if you go from law to, you know what, actually I m gonna learn how to code and I have an app idea, then people are like, what?
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You re such an idiot.
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You re not taking your skills with you.
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And it s just not true, first of all.
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And I think that mindset shift between looking at pivots as pulling the ripcord on the emergency parachute versus being pulled in a different direction that s more beneficial,
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I think there s a huge benefit to making that mindset shift and huge dangers to being lazy about it and looking at it through a negative light.
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Not only for those around you in terms of being supportive, but you could very well need to pivot in your own career and just not see it because you don t want to quote unquote admit defeat.
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Right.
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And so often, like you said, these changes happen and they re actually for the best.
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I know that s Pollyanna.
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It s kind of annoying to say, but there s not one person I interviewed who got laid off or reorg or their company got acquired and then they were fired.
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That was in the end, they were like that needed to happen.
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I was ready to move on.
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And then on the flip side, a lot of people I love, there s nothing I love more than hearing about someone s totally random, unique skill set and all their varied interests.
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And then that moment of congruence when they come together, you know, I d be curious for you how law has helped in building art of charm.
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A lot of people will say when they do make their next move,
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wow, it feels like my whole career has been preparing me for this.
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And that actually, because of that variety, I use the smartphone analogy, it s like your career is a set of apps, and it s up to you to download apps for skills, interests, education.
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So your unique combination of apps, it just has to work for you.
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We don t compare our phones with each other and like who has better apps, you know.
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Right, we don t do that.
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But I think there s maybe a sub-skill set here in making ourselves more agile when it comes to career change.
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Because if we re agile, once we see a plateau, we don t just think, well, this is the way it is.
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We go, all right, what s next?
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because we re not afraid to take that.
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It s kind of like you would be less afraid to jump out of an airplane if you know you had a parachute and some training on how to use it.
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It s probably a lot scarier if you have to jump out of the airplane and you ve never used it or you just don t even have one.
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The agility that you build through maybe the different apps or the different skill sets, that seems like something that you would have to work at and not just something that happens to you.
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It s probably better to be ready for the pivot than to, like you said, be pivoted.
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Absolutely.
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I m fascinated by this question of what makes people more agile careerists, whether you re self employed, or you work for someone else.
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And there are three things that I found results, reputation and platform.
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So results, you got to be good at something and actually make shit happen.
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Let s just say like, it s one thing to go take a class, but what are you actually creating in the world?
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What impact can you create in your business and other people s lives in a company?
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And then reputation is do people know about it?
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And then the final one platform, the people who are the most agile, actually have opportunities and clients coming to them.
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So not only do they get results, and they re good at it, and people know about it, but at that point, they re so agile that they re getting poached.
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My friend Julie was running leadership programs at a hedge fund in New York.
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And out of the blue, she got a call from a recruiter for Chanel to run global people development programs.
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And that they called her she would have never dared to dream to ask for that job.
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I mean, that s a fortunate pivot, right?
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That s something that she prepared for, even though she didn t maybe know she was doing that, and it s something that they noticed when they were looking for talent.
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They probably didn t call her because her name was the first one in the phone book.
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They called her because they knew she had a set of unique skills that they were looking for.
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Well, and she had previously worked at Google.
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She wrote a book called The Work Revolution.
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And the interesting thing was the book didn t take off in any major way.
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So you know, for the first few years, it was kind of like, Huh, what is this book meant to do in the world?
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But if all the book did was get her in front of that recruiter at Chanel, and it got her the job because they could read her entire philosophy on workplace culture during the interview process.
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So by her making herself discoverable, I use that analogy like Bluetooth devices, we need to be discoverable so that we can pair with the right types of clients or companies that by her writing that book, even though she had no aspirations to be a full-time author, she loves working within organizations.
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She was discoverable and a company like Chanel poached her.
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And the best people, you know, the most successful entrepreneurs have a wait list because people are actually knocking on their door.
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For you, Jordan, it s like you have publicists, people emailing you saying, hey, can my author be on your podcast?
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That s so different than you having to knock down doors.
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I remember thinking a long time ago,
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man, you know, I d love to be getting free books and be getting pitched, but nobody knows what podcasts are because blogs were trendy, so all my blogger friends were like, here, you can have this used copy of my book.
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I got 10,000 books last month.
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And now, people try to mail me books, and I m like, don t mail this book to me.
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Don t you dare mail this book to me.
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Stuff like that, especially a paper copy that s just going straight to goodwill.
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And of course, now we re still knocking down doors, we re just knocking down different doors.
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And I would imagine in 10 years, I m gonna be like,
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If I hear from another celebrity, I m gonna vomit, you know?
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But I do think that the discoverability principle is very important because it obviously is a huge advantage to have a platform of some kind.
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How can we do that if, say I m 25, am I really gonna write a book on what I ve learned in my career?
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I mean, it seems like that s,
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possible, but it s a pretty bold move and very, very time-consuming as well.
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Even if we re super talented and we re very organized, writing a book would take years to do.
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Are there things we can do to be discoverable that don t involve hitting the New York Times list?
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Definitely writing a book is not going to be everybody s strength forte or interest by no means.
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There s another person whose story I share in the book.
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His name is Dan Kelligan.
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He s a photographer.
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And he for the first few years of his Instagram account, he just took a beautiful photo once a day or even once a week.
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But he always made sure that they were thoughtful and high quality and interesting.
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And he was working at the time for Groupon.
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And his job was taking interior office building shots for Groupon, you know, it s like not his dream job.
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But then one day, Instagram featured him for a week as one of their top users.
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And his account skyrocketed to 100,000 because of the quality of the history of his photographs.
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And then after that, now companies like Audi and Warby Parker are reaching out saying, Hey, can we pay you to post a shot for us and thousands of dollars.
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And he stays for free wherever he travels because he gets to stay in hotels he does in exchange for posting on Instagram.
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So that s an example that his art was a beautiful photograph.
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And I totally get, you know, one of my friends, Stacy said, these days, we re expected to live our lives at the same time that we brand the shit out of them.
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And I get that not everyone wants to be a brand.
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But what do you love?
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What are you interested in?
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What can you become an expert at?
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And then how can you authentically add value to the world around it?
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And again, it doesn t have to be a book and it certainly doesn t have to be a best selling one.
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But what can you give to the world?
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What can you contribute?
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That s part of what leads to being discoverable rather than just saying, what can I get?
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What can I take?
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What can I create?
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What kind of business model do I want?
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You know, that s all me, me, me.
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But to ask at the same time, how can I make an impact?
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That s when the cycle really starts to take off.
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Over the last 17 years, we have launched our fair share of online courses, coaching programs, and finding the right platform has always been a challenge.
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Hey Art of Charm listeners, I m excited to share a new podcast I ve been absolutely binging.
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Now, back to the show.
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So it can be about a platform pretty much anywhere.
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Would you say it s about a platform though?
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Because it sounds like when we talk about social capital, it sounds like the same concept.
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It could be a dinner party that you have every month with top influencers in your industry.
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Or it could be a blog that you keep where you curate articles and you write thoughts of your own based on
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your expertise in some sort of random area, like oil drilling.
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There s certain industry bloggers, it s probably a closed circle, but if you re able and willing to write about that stuff, you can become part of that and gain visibility that way.
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I like the social media angle.
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That, however, relies a lot on luck.
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Here s another example.
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So when my first book Life After College was coming out, authors are my heroes.
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One of my goals, I really wanted to get to know more authors and I was moving from the Bay Area to New York.
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One of the things I did in parallel, so I was very overwhelmed by the book marketing process.
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I didn t know the first thing about it and it really overwhelmed me.
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So for my personal use, I created a 15 tab book marketing spreadsheet.
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This is not social media.
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This was something I did to organize my crazy brain.
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And then I had the opportunity to go present at Seth Godin s office, the Domino Project.
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And they said, Do you have one thing that you could talk about for 15 minutes?
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And I was really nervous.
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I said, I have this spreadsheet, but you guys are going to think I m that shit crazy, you know?
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And they just said, no, show us.
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We want to see what you re doing.
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Presented that Seth loved it.
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He linked to it on his blog.
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It s now been downloaded 8,000 times.
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I ll go to a book launch party and I ve never met the author.
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And they ll say, Oh, you re Jenny Blake.
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We just used your spreadsheet.
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SPEAKER_01
So there s an example.
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It s not social media.
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It s something that I created to kind of ease my own overwhelm and then shared it.
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And because of that,
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I ve now been able to connect with more authors and feel like I added value for them, whereas they would have never been interested in a book called Life After College.
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SPEAKER_00
This is not just creating a platform by accident, but this is exactly how you design useful tools.
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SPEAKER_00
I get a lot of email from people that want to learn how to make something special or do something interesting, or what should I do with my life, or how do I start a business?
2
SPEAKER_00
The best piece of advice, and what we did with The Art of Charm, was just create something that you would use.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s simple but very difficult at the same time because you start off going, I m gonna create this thing that I would totally use.
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SPEAKER_00
And then either other people need to use it, which is 99.9% of the time.
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SPEAKER_00
But then the second you start making it for other people, it just goes freaking crazy.
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SPEAKER_00
you start making your own software, and you re like, cool, this is really neat and useful, and then it s like, oh, I should sell this, and then it turns into a frickin  weird Mission Creep product where you end up with this crazy thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I think one of the reasons your spreadsheet worked so well was because you made the whole thing for yourself, and then probably what needed to happen to make it more shareable was some formatting, right?
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SPEAKER_00
That was probably it, or maybe you got rid of some shorthand that you used that only you know what it meant, but otherwise, it was largely the same piece of work.
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SPEAKER_00
Is that true?
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Yes, I didn t put pressure on myself to monetize it, make it a business.
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And I didn t even do an email capture in order for people to use it because I didn t care.
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I wasn t in it for that.
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SPEAKER_01
And actually, people probably make fun of me.
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SPEAKER_01
I ve been doing the online business thing for 10 years.
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And for a lot of my best resources, I refuse to put an email capture in front of it.
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I want people to download things, get value, you know, or in this case, read the book.
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SPEAKER_01
And if they enjoy it,
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Come on in, come sign up for the newsletter.
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I d love to have you.
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SPEAKER_01
I m always curating interesting tools or articles, but I don t believe in hiding things behind an email.
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Now, again, I know that s like probably bad business, but it s just kind of how I roll.
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I just prefer for people to test things out.
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SPEAKER_01
And it s kind of like, I don t know, not asking someone to marry you up front.
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It s like, yeah, go poke around a little bit.
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And if you re interested, let s be friends.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I dig that.
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SPEAKER_00
I definitely dig that.
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SPEAKER_00
And giving it away and making it free, I mean, that s obviously something near and dear to my heart.
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SPEAKER_00
I want to dive right back into the pivoting thing, because I love the idea of pivoting, but I want to talk about how to actually do this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because there s a method to the madness.
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This isn t about, and just forget entrepreneurs.
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SPEAKER_00
What a lot of people our age, let s say under 40, are thinking they have to do because
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some guy in a YouTube video said so, they feel like, I need to do a 180, I need to quit my job and go all in.
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And I was just at an event where a bunch of younger guys in their 20s were speaking and they re like, I quit my job to go all in on whatever marketing thing or whatever.
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SPEAKER_00
And I kept asking them, why did you go all in?
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SPEAKER_00
It always comes down to some kind of weird thing, like I want my friends to know I m committed, or I don t want to look like I m failing by being a waiter and working on my side gig.
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SPEAKER_00
But pivoting is different, right?
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These are methodical.
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You think like a basketball player.
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One foot stays grounded, the other one scans for opportunity.
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And I think this is very important.
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This is not just bold action for the sake of it.
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Oh, exactly.
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Yes, that s for the people who are just fearless risk takers and and want to go all in.
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That s fine.
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Do you but that s not who I m talking to.
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I m talking to people who are, you know, willing to take smart risks, but generally pragmatic and responsible and want to kind of build methodically towards something.
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And I ll say that the biggest mistake I made when my bank account balance was dwindling to zero was
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I was focused way too much on what wasn t working and what I didn t have and what I didn t know.
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And it was not until I thought about this basketball player thing and started to double down on what was working and build from my strengths, that things really started to regain traction.
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So part of the method and the book lays out a four stage pivot method.
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So inefficiency bothers me.
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Okay, this is like one of the things I try to solve in the world.
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There s an agile development quote.
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Each time you repeat a task, take one step toward automating it.
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So it occurred to me that, well, if we re all having to figure out what s next more often, every few years, we have got to get better at it.
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Because this is so inefficient.
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We all have friends who are like, I m bored, but they don t know what to do about it, you know, or they know they need to change and they re not doing it yet.
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So the pivot method is about really methodically first starting from a base of your strengths, what s already working, that s the plant foot, and your one year vision.
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What do you want a year from now?
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What does success look like?
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Now these are your known variables.
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So this brackets where you are now and where you want to end up.
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So then the second stage scan is about looking for opportunity.
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And that could be people you want to connect to new skills you want to develop and projects that are interesting to you.
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But it s really critical that the scanning elements be tied to your strengths.
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Because the mistake most people make, especially go getters, is they think, Oh, I m at a pivot point, what s out there.
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And so they immediately start looking outside of themselves.
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And then the third stage pilot is like akin to the basketball player passing the ball around the court, where do you have the best chance to make a shot.
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So this is about small experiments that you can run in 10 to 20% of your time, again, whether self employed or at a company.
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And you can repeat plant scan pilot over and over.
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I ve done this when I got stuck on writing my book on projects in business.
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And then eventually the fourth stage launch is like going for it.
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That s the all in moment.
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But if you go straight to all in, that s where a lot of pivots fail.
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So by the time you plant scan and pilot it enough, then the launch is less scary.
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And it s the remaining 10 to 20%.
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Yeah, we see a lot of people doing the all-in before the pilot.
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And, of course, you re setting yourself up for potential failure here big time with no safety net.
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And a lot of people think, oh, well, having a safety net makes you soft or something.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s just really not true.
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And the data sort of bears this out, that we see that people who go all-in, obviously much more likely to fail than people who go slowly and methodically.
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unless you re using your current career as an excuse to not do anything, which might be a sign that you don t have what it takes or you re not willing to do the work to succeed, but I think for most of us, going all in without pilot, it s just kind of foolish and most of it is ego-driven so that you can tell Gary Vaynerchuk that you went all in and you feel great about it.
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And one of the keys is how related.
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So again, this is what makes it a pivot and not a 180.
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So when I was at Google, I was doing coaching and career development.
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And I left and people thought, Oh, that s so shocking to leave Google.
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But then I was doing coaching and career development, the same exact activities now self employed.
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When I got the job at Google, I had been managing a Google AdWords account at a startup company.
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And that was only 5% of my role there.
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But then I applied to Google on the AdWords product training team.
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So there are connecting factors.
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So when I see people whose pivots don t work, it s usually that they re not well enough linked up with what they re doing already.
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SPEAKER_01
And that s not to say we re locked into a career track and we have to stay there.
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But as you mentioned, even finances, there s a whole chapter in the book on finances because your pivot runway will inform when and how you can pivot and how much opportunity for risk that you have.
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So I think it s really important to recognize
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SPEAKER_01
Like those people who are kind of going all in blind, good luck, you know, get ready for a big wake up call, especially if it s very different from what they ve already been doing, or they don t have the results, reputation and platform.
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Because that s also really hard when you think you can four hour work weekend and just quit your job and build a muse business overnight.
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And that s all well and good.
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But as you know, too, it takes time to build these things.
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SPEAKER_00
I wanna be really clear though, I think it s important to do this.
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SPEAKER_00
It doesn t mean fully reinventing yourself and I think this needs to be laid bare because I think the reason a lot of people are afraid
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to go all in or even do the methodical thing, or they ll do the methodical thing and then kind of back down, is because people are afraid that they re gonna have to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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SPEAKER_00
But pivoting doesn t mean taking a wild leap like we mentioned earlier.
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It means slow change, even in your own skill set and in your own direction.
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SPEAKER_00
I just kind of want to hammer this down a little bit, because I think any time we think directional change in career, we think,
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totally different lifestyle, right?
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Like going from the COO of Facebook to stay-at-home mom and then back to a startup or something.
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SPEAKER_00
It doesn t have to be that drastic.
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And I think that s what scares a lot of people, is the idea that they re gonna have to start from scratch.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s one thing to have a hypothesis about what s next.
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And it s quite another to test it.
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So this is where the idea of pilots again becomes so critical, because it gives you real world data about what you re gonna like or not.
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So a good pilot will test what I call the three E s enjoyment.
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Do I like this thing?
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expertise?
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Can I become an expert at it?
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And do I want to and expansion?
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Is there room in the market for this?
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So for you with podcasting, when you were doing it on the side, and I started blogging, I started a website in 2005.
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Am I enjoying it?
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Yes.
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Can I become an expert at it?
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Sure.
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Why not?
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You know, I ll keep teaching myself these skills and expansion is a room to keep going.
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And
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When you can pilot, it takes the pressure off of having to monetize something like a blog or a podcast overnight.
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So that s where having these redundant or multiple streams of income is quite helpful so that we re not flying blind.
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And on the other side of the coin, I talk in the book about unrealized gains.
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That s if you re quitting something too soon.
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We re also not advocating for reckless job hopping and diminishing returns.
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There are plenty of them where people stay too long.
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and they re no longer getting value from whatever the current thing is that they re doing.
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So it s important to kind of be assessing and decisions are data.
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At some point, you just got to do it.
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We don t know if you re going to succeed or fail.
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SPEAKER_01
And also, how do you even define failure?
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So much of this is about learning and continuing to adjust.
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But that at a certain point, you do got to just decide and go for it and then use that new information to inform the next set of pilots.
3
SPEAKER_00
Perfect, well let s talk about how to get a jump on that pivot process before we get pivoted and hit the inflection points kind of on our own terms rather than when the market or the boss throws them at us.
3
SPEAKER_00
You ve got some pretty good practicals here, things like high net growth.
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SPEAKER_00
Let s talk about these.
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SPEAKER_01
So high net growth, when I thought about who is this book for, it s not age specific.
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It s actually, I don t narrow it down to age, life stage, or even bank account balance.
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The people that this is for, I call them high net growth.
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So we all know high net worth is you ve earned a lot of money in your lifetime.
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People who are high net growth will take a pay cut, bootstrap a business, make a horizontal move.
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They want to optimize for learning and growing.
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And when those needs are being met, they turn toward making an impact.
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So, and I call them impactors for short.
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For impactors, if they are not learning and growing, they re out of there.
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And some people call this entitled, I call it smart.
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If you re not adding value to an organization or if you re self-employed to clients lives, you re out of business.
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So I don t shame and blame people for wanting to add value to the world and have meaningful work.
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And I think it s important.
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And so that s what this high net growth, it s a mindset that says, you know, Tim Ferriss, he even says in four hour work week, the opposite of happiness is boredom.
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And that s really a high net growth type of mindset.
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A lot of folks are thinking, well, I need to stay in this because the pay is good or the pay is guaranteed.
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SPEAKER_00
But we know that if you re bored, I mean, the currency of the new rich, right, is this mobility to move to different careers that have more free time or more interesting work.
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SPEAKER_00
And these are things that people didn t really look at or seem to even care about.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, at least in my dad s day, there wasn t a whole lot of anybody caring at all about the fulfillment of the job, so to speak.
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SPEAKER_00
It wasn t even something that came up in conversations with my parents.
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SPEAKER_00
honestly.
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SPEAKER_01
That s so true.
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Same with my mom.
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When I was telling her, we still to this day disagree about my choice to leave Google when I did.
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SPEAKER_01
And when I was telling her I m not fulfilled, she s like, what is this?
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Work is work.
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She s been at Stanford for 20 years and she s just like, essentially like, you re crazy to even be optimizing for this.
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She kind of saw me as very emotional about my work.
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Very different mindset.
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And let s just add to that for some people, especially if you re a primary breadwinner and you have a family,
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sometimes you do need to stick with something for solely for financial reasons.
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Then there s another category of people who are fine to set it and forget it career wise, they re fine to get one job and not care what it is and go with that for 20 or 30 years.
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But that s most likely not the people listening to this podcast, people who really, as overwhelming as change can be, it s also where we thrive.
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And we love the adventure of it.
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And I think deep down, we love the complexity
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of not knowing what s next and figuring it out, and we would be so bored otherwise.
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Can we test to whether the grass is greener on the other side?
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SPEAKER_00
Because sometimes the grass is always greener because there is something better out there for you.
3
SPEAKER_00
But again, not going all in, testing a pilot.
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SPEAKER_00
How does that look?
3
SPEAKER_00
Is there a formula for this?
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SPEAKER_00
It s kind of hard to have one foot in at Google and another, like, I m just writing this book on the side.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, maybe that s what you did, but it seems like a heck of a lot of work.
3
SPEAKER_01
It is a lot of work.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what happened to me was I kept burning out.
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SPEAKER_01
And so even two weeks before my first book launched, I was in Chipotle with a friend and he said, How are you?
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And I burst into tears.
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And I was like, so overwhelmed.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so for me, it got to the point where I realized, I can t keep doing both.
3
SPEAKER_01
If we think of pilots, like racehorses at the starting gate, eventually, even if they feel all even Oh, which direction should I go, eventually, one of them starts to pull ahead.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s kind of what was happening for me that when I took a three month unpaid leave to do a book tour,
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SPEAKER_01
And I was so busy every day of that book tour, I couldn t fathom how I ever had a full time job in addition to doing my own side thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
So sometimes these projects take on an energy of their own.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then sometimes it s our body, we get physical signals that you can t keep doing everything or you can t keep staying still.
3
SPEAKER_01
I had a friend who started getting panic attacks when she would get off the subway on her way to work.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s a clear sign that she s got a pivot.
3
SPEAKER_00
So people are getting physically ill from having jobs where they feel like they re stuck or bored or dead-ended.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, or burnt out.
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SPEAKER_01
If you don t respond, your body will continue speaking louder and louder and louder until you listen.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
That totally tracks with me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just figured I was being a wimp when stuff like that happens.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I see that a lot in other people.
3
SPEAKER_00
I never feel like they re being a wimp.
3
SPEAKER_00
I guess I m just out here on myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
Did you have any physical signals when you were back doing the law thing, given how much it doesn t resonate with you?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you know what was interesting is I had a room that didn t have windows, and that s where I was having so much trouble waking up.
3
SPEAKER_00
Room with no windows in New York, surprise, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
I was having so much trouble waking up in the morning, and I blamed that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then I had a great room.
3
SPEAKER_00
that had tons of sunlight and tons of light and tons of activity in the house, because I lived at the time with everybody else from the Art of Charm, which was insane.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I would wake up, but then I would just, I d be so tired, I d have to go back to sleep, and I would sleep in, and then some days I would leave early and take a nap, and my office mate was saying, hey man, look, you should probably get here earlier.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, I m not trying to tell you what to do, I m not gonna rat you out, but.
3
SPEAKER_00
People will notice if you keep showing up at 9.30 a.m.
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SPEAKER_00
or 10, even though most people get there at 8.30 or 9, it wasn t that big of a difference.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I just thought, oh, but I m just so beat from the job.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now I can get up at like 6.30 and do a ton of work, and then I m like, oh, it s 7 p.m.
3
SPEAKER_00
already?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I haven t eaten today, I should probably do that.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then I m like, all right, I ll eat and then I ll go to the gym.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I just realized, wait a minute, I wasn t,
3
SPEAKER_00
just tired or having trouble waking up.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was just freaking depressed.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was bored out of my mind.
3
SPEAKER_01
That is so fascinating.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, just that lethargy feeling.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s so interesting to hear about.
3
SPEAKER_01
Even changing your environment didn t fix it.
3
SPEAKER_01
For me, I had a
3
SPEAKER_01
Thyroid problem.
3
SPEAKER_01
Coincidentally, for the exact five years I worked at Google, it could be total coincidence.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I got to the point when I got to New York, after I left, I had a doctor say, you ve got to take this radioactive iodine pill and kill your thyroid.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just going to kill itself.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I said, no, I m not going to kill an organ just because you re telling me to.
3
SPEAKER_01
And because my lifestyle had changed, and the nature of my work, and I started taking better care of myself, I actually wasn t eating three massive meals a day, because it was all the free food.
3
SPEAKER_01
I lost 15 pounds, and my thyroid thing never returned, knock on wood.
3
SPEAKER_00
Did you have hypo or hyper thyroid?
3
SPEAKER_01
Hyper, it was overactive.
3
SPEAKER_00
See, that makes sense, because I m thinking maybe you just had crazy adrenal fatigue that contributed to that as well, if those things are linked.
3
SPEAKER_01
the adrenal fatigue would have probably sent me into the other way where your thyroid slows down.
3
SPEAKER_01
But either way, I ve become such a believer in the physical kind of manifestation of this.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not even making this up.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is truly what happens that when we experience stress, our body stops
4
SPEAKER_00
long-term health prevention and goes into fight-or-flight mode to stop the imminent stress attack.
4
SPEAKER_00
So studies now show that we experience those moments of stress 100-150 times a day.
4
SPEAKER_00
So of course our body is going to stop long-term health prevention, disease prevention, and go to the short-term needs.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I also just think on a practical level, we re more susceptible to things like hyperthyroid.
4
SPEAKER_00
I got vertigo after, that was recently after a bout of two weeks of really pushing myself too hard.
4
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So my body now has me on a short leash.
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It s like the minute I started doing things that aren t good for it, slam, it speaks up.
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Now back to the show.
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You re the only person under 100 I ve ever even heard of having vertigo.
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What are you, Liza Minnelli?
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Jordan, it was crazy.
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I stood up, and when I woke up, the room was spinning counterclockwise, and I had to check.
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I m like, am I hungover?
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No, I haven t had alcohol in three weeks.
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Am I pregnant?
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Nope.
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That would be immaculate conception.
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And I walked down the street, I thought, maybe I need a bagel, like when you are hungover.
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I go down the street, as I m going to pay for the bagel, I had to run out of the shop, find a trash can, and I threw up, just from being upright.
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It was so crazy.
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To take a shower the next day, I had to roll myself into the tub.
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That s insane.
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It s like Arrested Development, where Liza Minnelli can t stand up.
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It was nuts.
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And I didn t take any medicine.
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I m not, whatever.
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I m not a doctor, but I m just saying for me personally, I knew I had been stressed and not sleeping well and not eating well.
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And so I did green juice for three days and it went away and it hasn t been back since.
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But that was again, a clear signal that I ve got to do things differently.
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And especially for entrepreneurs, our body is our business.
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If we are run down and not sleeping or eating well or exercising, for me, I m pretty much my sole employee.
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It means my business is now operating at 50% and I care about it too much for that.
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There s a lot of people in the middle of America right now where I m from that are like, what a bunch of babies.
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Oh, I got dizzy because I m working so hard.
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You know, they re pulling 12 hour shifts at Ford or any company in the Midwest and they re working their butt off and they re like, oh, you got physical symptoms.
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But I think the truth is we probably all have these and work through them.
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I mean, I remember my dad making himself sick or like not eating for two days and being like,
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to my mom and stuff like that and just working really, really hard because we pride ourselves on that.
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And I think that it s easy to confuse working hard, which I think is a good thing.
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I love my Midwestern work ethic.
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It s easy to confuse working really hard with actually just burning yourself out and careening towards a brick wall that you can t see.
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Yes.
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And I also do think there s a spiritual element of this, which is that there s a difference.
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There could be a person who s working eight hours in a factory and feels fine.
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But if you, Jordan, were trying to put in eight hours a day still at the law firm, your body would continue trying to talk to you and say, this is not for you.
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This is not what you re meant to be doing.
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You have got to go pursue your potential.
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And I know even the word potential is a shitty word,
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You are really careful right there, I appreciate it.
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I know.
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But I do think that for some people, I don t know, it s just what we re meant to be doing in creating the world takes a certain type of energy, mental, emotional, spiritual kind of fitness and wellness.
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And yeah, 12 hours in the factory, no doubt, but we re also just doing a different kind of work and output.
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How do we reduce some of the decision fatigue that comes down?
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Because it s really easy to find that you re now making a thousand decisions.
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Should I quit my job?
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Should I stay?
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Should I do this?
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Do I need to cut expenses?
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Do I need to test this?
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How many people do I reach out to?
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What should my platform be?
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Do I need to hire somebody?
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It seems like even thinking about that would be super overwhelming and could result in inaction or worse.
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Yeah, this is huge.
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So decision fatigue, also known as ego depletion, is this idea that much like willpower, our ability to make decisions dwindles throughout the day, especially without proper recharging.
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So already, when somebody is at a pivot point, and they re asking massive questions of their life and their business, saying, What s next?
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What should I do?
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How will I support myself?
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Already, our ability to make other decisions has dwindled that it is a limited capacity.
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So the flip side of that is if you re making a ton of tiny decisions all day, every day, you don t have the resources to ask and answer the bigger questions without getting totally stressed out.
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So one of the things I recommend in the book and in life is systematize what you can.
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There s a reason Steve Jobs wore a black turtleneck every day.
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President Obama has the same set of suits that he wears.
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I was making the exact same chili soup for lunch for the first three years of running my own business.
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But that as much as you can systematize in terms of morning routines, wind up rituals, wind down rituals at the end of the day, you start to free up your mind for the biggest, most important questions.
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Similarly, if you re panicked about how to pay the bills, that s going to significantly constrict your ability to think more creatively about the future.
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And that was a fascinating book called scarcity, where the authors talk about how, when we re experiencing scarcity of time, money or resources, our thinking actually changes, our brain changes.
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So in the examples we talked about earlier, where people go all in with no safety net, it s really not that smart, even in practical terms, because the second they start to get panicked about money, I use the analogy of an income anxiety seesaw.
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If your income drops too low, your anxiety is going to skyrocket.
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So it s really important to figure out how you can build enough of a financial buffer and enough routines and systemization to free up your mind for its best thinking.
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And it s annoying too, it s a lot like saying eat your spinach, but this is where mindfulness and meditation practices have been hugely helpful for me.
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Yeah, I think managing the stress with this and having a pathway to making decisions and not trying to do them all at once is obviously super helpful for navigating any kind of major change like this.
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With the finances especially, how do we know when we re ready to maybe go full-time, or how do we know if we have enough money to take some time off and do the book tour, that type of stuff?
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I mean, how do you calculate that?
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Because I think a lot of folks are worried about just cutting off the supply, even if they ve been super frugal or even really careful in planning this, there might be folks who are just worried about kind of cutting that umbilical cord because they re not sure about
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the way that they ve planned or their calculations?
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Do they have runway?
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How much are they spending?
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Are they gonna be able to make it?
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Yes.
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A couple key terms.
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One, monthly net.
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How much do you need to live?
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And I always, when I m working with coaching clients, ask for three numbers.
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What s your minimum needed just to get by on must-have expenses?
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What s your nice-to-have monthly net of, you know, to maintain your current lifestyle?
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And jump out of bed with glee.
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And I always like to have a range because a lot of times people will focus either on some totally unrealistic number.
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Yeah, I want 20k in passive income every month.
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Well, yeah, that d be nice.
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But are you there yet?
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Or they ll be so fear based that they re like, what do I need just to scrape by?
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So now if you have a range, that will inform your pivot runway.
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So given your monthly net, I recommend at least six months of runway that was consistent with a lot of the pivoters I interviewed for the book.
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And that s what I had when I left Google.
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So how many months given where you live and your current lifestyle will your monthly net and your savings?
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How many months will that buy you?
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Then I also share a make or break marker.
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you re in order of priority, what will you do and in what order, if things are not going as planned.
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So for me, I had these assets and actually made a list actually made a business plan for my inner CFO, who was so worried about me quitting Google that mirrored a lot of the fears other people were expressing to me.
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But I made a little business plan.
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And I said, if in the first six months, I am not earning any income,
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doing my own thing or earning enough, here s what I ll do.
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Number one, I ll sell my car.
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Number two, I will sell my stocks.
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Number three, I will sell my house.
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Number four, I will cash out my 401k.
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Number five, do not get to this point.
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Go get another job.
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And I actually had go get another job before cashing in my 401k.
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The point is, everyone s different about what assets you currently have and what you re willing to bet on your new direction.
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But at least up front, you can kind of set well, what will I do?
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Some of the personal development stuff is like, don t ever think a negative thought.
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But I think that it s very helpful to plan through worst case scenarios.
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And if things aren t working, what will you do?
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And by when?
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And once you have those backup plans in place, you can be more calm in the moment to if things aren t going as planned.
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But what I find is that most people are very resourceful that if even a couple months in, things aren t going as planned, you can plant scan pilot again.
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So you can say, Well, what is working?
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How am I currently getting clients?
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What is working about my business model or my services and then do more of it.
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And so by doing that, I hopefully never have to get to that make or break point.
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Yeah, I think there, again, the emergency parachute, just knowing that that s there makes it more likely that we can take the risk we need to to make the pivot in the first place.
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And my editor said to me, I think she wanted me to take out some of the worst case scenario planning, which is fair enough.
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She had a question, what if someone doesn t have any assets?
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What about them and how do they pivot?
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Well, the truth is, it s going to be harder or it s going to be riskier.
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I can t sit here and pretend that, oh, if you have no assets at all to your name, don t worry, you ll be fine.
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I mean, no, you re going to have different constraints on your pivot.
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And so it may take longer to build up those reserves until you feel comfortable or you re going to quit without any reserves at all.
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And you ll just know that you re taking on significantly more risk.
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One of the most common questions that we get is, how do I know I m ready to actually let go of one branch and hold on to the other one?
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How do I know that I can release my old job or my old income stream?
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There s gotta be a way to know that in advance so that you don t make the decision impulsively.
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I m so sick of my job today, I quit, which is what a lot of people do, or they just hold onto that branch forever and they end up burning themselves out because they have one job that they don t like, but they feel they need, and a side business that they love, but for some reason, since they re enjoying it, can t be a real job and they never let go and they burn themselves out.
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This is one of the biggest questions I get to how do I know when I m ready?
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How do I know when I m ready?
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So one, I think that I recommend do a 30 day decision tracker.
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And there s a template for this on my website, but essentially become more impartial.
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So going back to decision fatigue, if every day we re saying, should I quit?
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Should I quit?
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Should I quit?
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It s very inefficient for our brain.
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So one thing I would say is
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just observe for 30 days?
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How do you feel every day?
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And I like to rate a baseline.
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How do I feel overall in life?
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And how do I feel about this area that I m making a decision on?
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I actually secret actually created this for a dating someone I was dating.
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I was like, I don t know if this relationship is good for me or not.
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And I wanted to track more impartially than kind of emotionally trying to assess every day.
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And the funny thing was that I tracked for 29 days.
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And on day 29, he broke up with me.
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But my data was already leading in that direction.
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Now, it s not like I go so crazy on every area of my life.
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But in that moment, I was so torn that I needed something that was going to help me out.
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The other thing that I recommend is for people to really think about and rank their launch criteria.
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The make or break kind of decision criteria are going to be different for everybody.
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In studying this, I broke it down into five categories.
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So those are financial benchmarks, such as money saved or money earned, or waiting for a certain bonus to set in.
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Then there s date based timing.
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Some people want to wait until, oh, I ve launched this thing at work, or I want to quit after the holidays, or I want to make a decision by X date.
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Then there s progress milestones, completing something at work or in the business.
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Then for a lot of people, instinct or intuition, ultimately when I asked, a lot of people said, I just knew they had a gut feeling.
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So it may be the case that you do everything you can to prepare and then one day something happens and you will have a clear gut instinct.
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And then the last category is in other s hands.
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That s if you re waiting for approval.
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You re waiting for a loan or to get into grad school or to get into an accelerator incubator program or get venture funding.
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I do question, you know, I do think people should kind of double check.
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Do you need to wait for any of those approvals or can you get going now?
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But the biggest thing is, if you re indecisive, put off the decision, give yourself say, I m not even going to think about this decision for the next three weeks and be more objective.
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And the other thing I ll say, a lot of people conflate difficult decisions with difficult conversations.
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So they know in their gut, it s time to leave or end the relationship or leave the job.
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But they re so worried about how and when to deliver the news and what the other person s reaction will be.
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that their mind tricks them into thinking they re unsure, when actually they are.
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They re just fearful of the consequences.
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Interesting, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense, because it is easy for our minds to trick us into thinking something s important when it really isn t.
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What are some things we should not be basing this decision on?
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If we set all these things up, these date-based, acceptance-based, what are some things that you see people making decisions that are not good criteria?
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anything fear-based.
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So I m going to decide because I m afraid or I m going to stay because I m afraid of XYZ.
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So anytime, the reason for your action or decision is because I m afraid that it s just not productive.
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I know when I was leaving Google, I kept having the thought, but what if I end up in a van down by the river?
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You know, what if I don t earn any money?
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And that was okay.
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That was a very natural fear to have.
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But I also did a thought replacement exercise that I was allowed to have that fear.
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But every time that popped into my mind, I also said to myself, and what if I earn twice as much in half the time.
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So I made a point to hold the candle for that compelling, constructive vision as well.
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And that was really helpful.
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Yeah, I like this, and I m glad you mentioned fear-based, because I think there s a lot of folks that are maybe thinking like, well, if this doesn t work, or if this other thing at work happens again, the other thing I think I would maybe throw in there with a caveat is something that s really emotionally charged, like, this is the second time my boss has taken credit for me on this project, and I m so embarrassed in front of everybody at this meeting, I quit.
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That s a good reason to quit, but it might not be a good reason to quit
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right at that time.
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Right, exactly.
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I see a lot of folks who post on Facebook things like, I quit my job today, and you re like, yeah, and they re like, I m so excited to start my side hustle business dot net, and everyone s like, yeah, go for it, and then someone s like, what happened, and then you hear the story, and sometimes it s something like, I just walked in, my coworker had eaten my lunch for the last time, I m so upset, and it s like, well, okay, this isn t based on your pivot, this is based on your emotional response to your current work,
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which is not really a good reason because it has no bearing on your ability to survive and thrive after you leave.
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I also think it s really important for us to say here that this is not about eliminating your fear or smashing your fear or crushing it or pretending like it doesn t exist because that has really bothered me and a lot of the self-help-less fear is this idea that
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we can just crush our fear or fear is somehow the enemy or even insecurity you know there s this trope like you have to love yourself completely before someone else can love you well like really how many people find relationships anyway who loves themselves all the time like it just seems ridiculous to me so
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Part of what I want to give people permission for with pivot is you re not crazy.
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And if you are scared of making a change, you re human.
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And as you should be, that actually means that whatever change you re going for is big enough for you.
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It s exciting, it s challenging, it s compelling.
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If it were totally easy, and you had no fear or insecurity around it at all, you would either a already be doing it or be be bored out of your mind.
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So for me, you know, I m a big advocate, actually, for fear and insecurity and uncertainty, and that these are signals that we re on the right track.
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And especially for high net growth individuals, we are a little more insecure than your average bear, because we know what we don t know.
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There s a study, it s called the Denning-Kruger effect, that actually, the lower someone s intelligence or IQ, the higher they will self-rate themselves, kind of like how many people think they re good versus a bad driver.
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but that the higher your IQ, the lower you will self-assess and rate yourself.
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So yeah, those of us who are trying to hustle and learn and grow and surround ourselves by people who are smarter than us, there s inherent fear and insecurity built in.
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So instead of making them the enemy, it s just accepting that and then keep moving anyway.
5
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Jenny, this has been amazing.
5
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Thanks so much.
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Love the detailed output, right?
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We have calls to action, things we can do, detailed steps.
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You ve done it yourself.
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Really great episode.
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Is there anything that I have not asked you that you want to make sure you deliver?
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Thank you so much, it s been so much fun.
5
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The last thing I would say is just, you know, I kind of say at the end of the book, learn to love the knots, that the complexity of having to change career more often, it s kind of, it s the good news and the bad news.
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The bad news is, yes, we re all gonna have to learn this new skill set, but the good news is that it s so ripe with opportunity, and it s really exciting for anyone who s willing to take the bull by the horns and go for it.
5
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Thanks so much, Jenny.
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Thank you so much for having me, Jordan, and big thanks to everybody for listening.
5
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Great stuff.
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I love the action steps.
5
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The real deal is that she s done this before, so she s actually outlined what she s done multiple times to make those pivots, to make sure she s not going all in when it s not time to go all in, make sure she s preparing for pivots in advance, make sure this isn t something that s keeping her stagnant or that she s afraid to do, and I think a lot of you might find that you re in a phase where you re about to pivot or maybe you should have pivoted a while ago, and now you ll be able to get the skills to do that effectively.
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So if you enjoyed this one, by the way, don t forget to thank Jenny on Twitter.
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We ll have that in the show notes.
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You can tap our album art in most mobile podcast players.
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You can see the show notes right on your phone.
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We ll link to the book there as well, of course.
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And I m also on Twitter, at theartofcharm.
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Bootcamp and live program details are at theartofcharm.com.
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Remember, we sell out a few months in advance, so get in touch even if you re just thinking about it or you want some general info.
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And, of course, we have our challenge
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and our basic toolbox at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed to 33444, that s C-H-A-R-M-E-D to 33444 here in the U.S.
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The challenge, it s about improving your networking skills, your connection skills, inspiring those around you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you.
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and we ll email you that fundamentals toolbox that I mentioned earlier on the show, and some videos with drills and exercises to help you move forward every week.
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It ll make you a better networker, a better connector, and most importantly, a better thinker.
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That s theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed in the US to 33444.
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For full show notes for this and all previous episodes, head over to theartofcharm.com slash podcast.
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This episode of The Art of Charm was produced by Jason DeFilippo.
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Jason Sanderson is our audio engineer and editor.
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Show notes on the website are by Robert Fogarty.
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I m your host, Jordan Harbinger.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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So stay charming and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.