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This is The Art of Charm.
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Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
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The Art of Charm is where ordinary guys become extraordinary men.
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Welcome guys and gals to The Art of Charm.
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I m Jordan Harbinger.
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The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
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Imagine having a mix of experienced mentors teaching you their expertise and packing decades of research, testing, and tough lessons into a curriculum.
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We may not have all the answers, but we do have all the questions.
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Make sure to stay up to date with everything going on here at the Art of Charm and get some great stuff that we don t or can t share on the show by signing up for the transformation kit at theartofcharm.com.
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You can also hang out with us on the blog where we get really in depth on a lot of these topics and you can further engage with the AOC team there as well.
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Or if you re new to the show and you want to find out more about what we teach here at The Art of Charm, you can go to the website and we ll email you our Fundamentals Toolkit that covers topics like body language and nonverbal communication, dating and attraction, persuasion, business networking, public speaking, negotiation, and a whole lot more.
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And we ve got our live programs running every week here in Los Angeles, California.
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In fact, we ve got guys from all over the world, which shows that no matter where you are,
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You can make it here if you wanna learn and grow.
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We re sold out a couple months in advance, so if you re thinking about it a little bit, get in touch.
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Email me, jordan, at theartofcharm.com.
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Get some info from us now so you can plan ahead.
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Looking forward to meeting you here at AOC.
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Today we re talking with Dr. Carol Dweck, author of Mindsets.
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This is particularly fascinating.
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We re gonna talk about the differences between fixed mindset and growth mindset, and how it affects people at work,
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at home, in relationships, even when your kid has it, when your business partners have it, it s super, super interesting for me because I have seen this everywhere and the truth is we all have it everywhere, including even in ourselves, no matter how much we think that we re growth mindset oriented or how much our partner might think they are, this is a really unique look inside your own brain and you re gonna definitely find something that you need to work on
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in yourself and something that you re gonna wanna communicate to those that you work with and live with.
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So enjoy this one with Dr. Carol Dweck.
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So tell me then why people s mindsets differ.
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Well, first let me tell you what I mean by the mindsets and it s that some people tend to believe that their talents and abilities are these fixed traits.
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You have a certain amount and that s it.
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And what we find is that if you think your talents or intelligence are just fixed, then you worry about them.
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Are they high?
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Are they low?
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Will I look stupid?
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Will people judge me?
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Will I feel bad about myself if I make a mistake or fail?
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So in this mindset, in this fixed mindset, your motivation is fragile.
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You don t want to go for something unless you re really sure you can achieve it.
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First signs of difficulty, you worry, a real setback, you re out of there.
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But other people are more often in a growth mindset, where they feel, hey, these abilities, these talents, you can develop them.
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It s not that some people don t come with more or less of the talent, but everyone they believe can develop their talents through hard work, good strategies, mentoring and input from others.
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And when people are more often in this mindset,
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They go for it.
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They take on hard things.
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They don t expect to be able to do everything right away.
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They cut themselves the slack to learn over time when they re sweating and really working hard.
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They don t feel stupid.
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They feel, hey, this is part of doing something difficult.
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And when they have a setback, again, that s part of
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learning something really hard, they retrench, they try new strategies, they get input from others, and they go at it again.
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These people are more likely to be successful in school, careers, sports, and life.
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So there s two mindsets, fixed mindset and growth mindset.
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The growth mindset people, clearly there s a correlation between that and success in work, family, all kinds of different resilience levels is what it sounds like.
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And they look more motivated.
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They re more able to sustain that motivation.
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Because it s exciting to be progressing and doing things you never thought you can do.
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It s less exciting to just keep proving yourself over and over.
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often by staying in your comfort zone.
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Now, I totally understand that, and I think everyone listening right now is like, yeah, I totally have a growth mindset.
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How accurate are our views of ourselves when it comes to this?
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Because no one s listening right now, and they re like, nope, I m stubborn, I m a stubborn SOB, I m not resilient, and I m probably not gonna be successful.
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Everyone thinks they re a growth mindset guy or girl.
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Right.
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Everyone thinks, Oh, I m the guy who thinks my talents can be developed.
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They re limitless.
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But.
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Well, it turns out we re all a mixture.
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So give up that idea that you re pure growth mindset.
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And a lot of people have said that when they started reading my book, they thought they had, you know, a tremendous growth mindset.
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But as they read about
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the relationships, as they read about sports, as they read about business, they realize, uh-oh, I recognize myself in some of these fixed mindset characters.
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And so I think what people need to do is get real.
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Think about what triggers your fixed mindset.
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We all have it.
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So when you think of going way outside of your comfort zone,
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Do you start worrying about that?
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When you get criticized or mess up on something, do you get defensive?
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That s coming from a fixed mindset.
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If you see someone who s really great at something that you value, but they re a lot better than you, are you jealous and resentful?
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Or do you think, hey, maybe they can
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teach me something, or maybe I can ask them how they develop these skills.
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So if you think about those trigger points, stepping out of your comfort zone, struggling, having a setback, seeing someone who s better than you, keep those in mind and pay attention.
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That s when your fixed mindset comes out, and that s when you have to start acknowledging it and working with it.
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Now I feel like I m not growth mindset at all.
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None of us are pure.
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I feel like you just took all of my little insecurities and bundled them up neatly and told everyone.
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All right.
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This is interesting because
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I mean, I thought for sure, okay, well, you know, I do this growth thing for a living, but there s a lot of other people out there.
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Those people are fixed.
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It s so clear that we re all a huge mix, and anybody who thinks I don t have any of those just hasn t found their fixed mindset triggers yet, it sounds like.
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That s right, and a fixed mindset, it s not just about being open or flexible or, you know, inclusive.
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It s really about believing that your basic
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talents and attributes can be developed.
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And then wanting to do that, being willing to face those challenges and setbacks head on.
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Now, that s sort of an entrepreneurial given, right?
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Like if you can t do that, if you can t face setbacks, and you can t retrench as you put it earlier, you re screwed if you re trying to start a business with a fixed mindset.
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It s not gonna happen.
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How do we get an accurate self-assessment?
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I mean, again, we talked about some of the factors, but is there a list, maybe it s in the book, is there a list of factors that we can point to that s like, okay, is there a test we take?
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Do you have a little Cosmo quiz on your website?
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How do we figure out whether we re fixed or growth, or do we just assume that we re a mix and move on?
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Well, first, I agree with you.
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In today s entrepreneurial world, where everything is changing all the time, really, you need that growth mindset.
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To not say, oh, we have the tried and true formula that we re going to do forever.
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To undefensively see
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what s not working and take the next required step.
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Otherwise, you re obsolete before you realize it.
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Then what do you do?
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I would say the best first step is to read my book.
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There is a Cosmo quiz in the book, but more than that, I think you need a deeper understanding of what these mindsets are and how they play out in all these different areas of your life.
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in order to really ask yourself every day, am I taking on challenges?
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Am I being resilient when I have setbacks?
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Are there things wrong that I m not facing up to?
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Who is better than I am?
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Who is a person I can learn from?
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I think a lot of people think that success is about learning, and some people think, and maybe the fixed mindset people think that success is mostly proving that you re smart.
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And that s kind of the difference in learning and how people view the learning.
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Yes, success in a fixed mindset is being king of the hill, the smartest person in the room.
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And it s staying that way, often by putting down others, browbeating,
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other people, anything it takes, hoarding information, keeping secrets.
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We have a study of Fortune 500 companies where we looked at what was going on in companies that employees said were fixed mindset, that is worshiping of talent, or more growth mindset, that is committed to the development
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of all the people in the organization.
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And we found that within the fixed mindset companies, the employees were saying a lot of cheating and cutting corners goes on here because people want to be the big shot, the big cheese, the genius.
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But in the growth mindset companies, people talk much more about collaboration and collaboration and teamwork for innovation.
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for creativity, and that the company was really supporting creative efforts, not just talking about it and then rewarding the geniuses, so to speak.
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And Jason and I were talking yesterday.
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Jason, you have some experience with this stuff in general, right?
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I mean, you credit a lot of your growth with Dr. Dreck s work.
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Absolutely.
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The reason I have this job is because of her book, Mindsets, honestly.
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Because when I was a programmer, I went back and I read her book and I was like, wait, when I was a kid, everybody told me I was smart.
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I did an IQ test.
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They tested me at like 138.
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I passed the Mensa test and everybody was just like, you re smart, you re smart, you re smart.
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And it took me another 10 years
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when I got into the startup community where everybody s like, no, that s not what gets you where you need to go.
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You need to work hard.
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And then I read the book and then everything kind of came together at that point.
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And I m like, oh, I need the growth mindset because working hard and becoming smart is just kind of just the end in the means.
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And you just keep kind of looking forward to
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getting smarter and working harder.
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And that really kind of really got me on the path.
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And as a programmer for the Art of Charm for what, like four years?
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And then I m like, oh, well, let s work on the podcast together.
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And then I learned a completely new skill set because that was what the growth mindset really kind of taught me.
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It s just like, just keep learning, always keep learning.
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Interesting, and so before that, you just what, kind of thought, I got this and I have to reinforce what other people told me as a kid, which is that I m smart, so don t show any chinks in the armor?
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Oh, absolutely, absolutely, yeah.
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And also, I love what you were saying, that you weren t into hard work, because what we find in our research is that, and other people find in their research too, when people are in a fixed mindset, hard work,
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means you re just not good at this because people who are really smart or talented, they don t have to sweat.
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And when we re told we re so smart as kids, we come to equate that with not having to work hard like these lesser people.
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But wow, does that curtail your chances in life.
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You know, I m starting to see kind of what happened here in law.
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I went to law school, most people listening have heard that story a million times, but I went to law school and I barely got in.
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Like, I got denied and then I got waitlisted and my grades were too low technically and my scores were too low and I was one of those guys they let in because I had a lot of international experience and blah, blah, blah.
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and I noticed that everyone there was really sharp.
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They were the all-stars from their other university, they were really sharp, and we were all studying 1L year, and this is when everything matters the most, and it s really hard, and you ve gotta have a lot of energy and stamina and really compete, and what I noticed was that a lot of these really smart kids, they were kind of like,
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oh, I never study, man, let s go drink every day, and they kinda had this weird little click where everyone would not study or they would pretend not to study, and then after the first set of exams, and your grade in law school that first year is 100% exam-based, a lot of them didn t do as well as they thought they were supposed to.
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So I noticed something.
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I was working my butt off, because I thought, I m gonna get kicked out of here if I don t do well, so I better work hard.
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And after that first set of exams, I thought, wow, I did really well, even on the curve.
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In the second semester, I noticed a really interesting phenomenon.
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All these really smart people who I thought were really gonna start kicking things into gear and really start mopping the floor with me, and thank goodness I had all these good grades first semester to balance out what I would assume would be terrible grades second semester, what happened is they checked out.
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because they went, oh, I can t handle the fact that I just got some negative proof that I m essentially not quote unquote smart.
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So I m just gonna pretend like this whole law school thing is stupid and I m gonna check out.
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And they did that.
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They checked out and they didn t do that well.
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And I thought that was super, super interesting because I thought, wow, these are people that have been quote-unquote smart their whole life, haven t had to work that hard, and when it really came down to where the rubber meets the road, they didn t go, all right, time to put these brains into action.
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They went, screw this, I m done.
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I thought that is fascinating, even if your listeners have heard it before.
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We have studies that show the exact same thing, that when you re in a growth mindset and it s hard, you just get your butt in gear.
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But when you re in a fixed mindset, you say, oh, my God, this is a catastrophe.
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Maybe I m not smart.
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I guess I won t care about this.
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And you don t come back from it.
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It seems like then what you re saying is mindsets essentially change the meaning of failure.
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If you re in a growth mindset.
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Totally, exactly.
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Yeah, tell us how it works.
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Yes, because when you re in more of a fixed mindset where your intelligence or talent is on the line, it s on the chopping block, a failure tells you,
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what that fixed number is.
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Are you smart or are you dumb?
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You re only as good as your last outcome.
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So a failure, a disappointing outcome, it s devastating.
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It says you have to question who you are.
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And especially if your claim to fame in the past was that you were the smart one who could
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you know, ace this and that without effort, the threat is unimaginable.
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But if you re more in a growth mindset, you can be nervous, oh, my God, this is hard, or, oh, my goodness, I didn t do as well as I expected.
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But then you start thinking, all right, what do I have to do now?
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And it s not that you re guaranteed to succeed.
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But you start doing the things that make success more likely.
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You study more.
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You go in for office hours.
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You form groups that study together and discuss the material.
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And in the end, you re much more likely to recover from that or do well.
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And the same is true in work settings.
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Hey, Art of Charm listeners.
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You ll hear from prominent athletes, business leaders, and celebrities who reveal insights that made them into the leaders they are today.
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All right, now back to Carol Dweck.
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Now that sort of brings in another sort of shade of the way that people look at failure, which is the way that they look at effort towards success.
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Because the first thing, of course, that I did was look at all the other nervous Nellies in law school and say, who wants to form a study group?
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And somebody behind me said, are we really forming study groups on the first couple weeks of school?
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And I was like,
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Hell yeah, that s the only way I m gonna stay here for three years, are you crazy?
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Everybody else went to the bar for the first two months.
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I was dying, I was like, I need to hang with smart kids right now because otherwise people are gonna find out how much I don t belong here and they re not gonna wanna be in my study group.
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So I need to get a head start.
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This is the tortoise and the hare for me.
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It is the tortoise and the hare.
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But it s more than the tortoise and the hare because in the,
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fable of the tortoise and the hare, the tortoise is inherently slow and it requires the hare to really mess up in order for the tortoise to win.
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So you were not really a tortoise.
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You were someone who was blossoming into a hare through your incredibly hard work and your great strategies.
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Now, I think a lot of people who don t have the growth mindset, though, but are naturally really intelligent, look at that as something that s not, they don t like the idea of that.
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They don t wanna do that themselves because, for various reasons, I suppose, but nobody else wanted to work that hard.
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Looking at the effort put in was something like, oh, well, you only have to do that if you re not smart or clever or sharp, like I ve been told I am my whole life.
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It doesn t jibe with their identity or what they perceive.
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So when you re in a fixed mindset, and we found this in our research, effort is a terrible thing.
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It s only for people who aren t as bright and talented as you are.
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And if you have to work at something, as I mentioned a moment ago, it s a sign that you re just not very good at it.
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So what I was going to ask is, does a fixed mindset equals shame when you have to work at your goal?
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Yes, it often does.
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It often means that when effort is required, you are ashamed of it rather than like excited to put out that effort.
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That s that s really kind of sad.
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That s terrible.
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Yes.
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Well, that limits your growth, right?
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It totally limits your growth.
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Totally.
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Yeah.
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Because everything important in life requires effort.
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and plenty of it.
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And we just have to wake up to that fact, whether it s a relationship, a job that matters, a course in school.
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Eventually, things require a lot of effort over and over.
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And if that effort makes you feel inadequate or ashamed, you re at a huge disadvantage.
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Right, because you will, you ll self-limit.
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Exactly.
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That is really fascinating.
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So we can t tell kids they re smart, right?
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Or what?
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Or we have to do it in pieces.
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No, we can t tell kids they re smart.
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My research shows that when you tell kids they re smart, it puts them right into a fixed mindset, makes them want to stay right in their comfort zone, and makes them freak out when it gets hard or they have a setback.
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I am 100% a walking and talking, just complete, you know, version of that.
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Case study.
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Yeah.
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So what s the alternative to telling your kids they re smart if you want to admire?
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Yeah, it s probably important.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So we want to appreciate the process they engaged in.
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their hard work, their good strategies, their perseverance, their improvement.
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Appreciating this process puts them into more of a growth mindset and equips them with the values and skills they need to succeed in the long run.
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So then they ll think, hey, I m going to work hard at that.
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That s a great thing.
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hey, I m gonna stick to it even though I m making mistakes.
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That s a great thing, that s an exciting thing.
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So in relationships, in your book you argue that having a fixed mindset sort of develops a competitive dynamic inside the relationship.
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It can develop a competitive dynamic where everyone s trying to prove themselves.
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It can also create a judging dynamic.
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So if something goes wrong, who s to blame?
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Am I the deficient bad person or are you the deficient bad person?
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If there s a snag in the relationship,
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You know, every relationship has its ups and downs.
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So when you re having a down, does this mean the relationship is inherently bad versus good?
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So in a fixed mindset, we re always judging who s good, who s bad, who s right, who s wrong, who s to blame?
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Is the relationship good or bad?
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This is not the optimal way to be.
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Instead,
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In a growth mindset, you understand that if you face and discuss an issue, then the relationship can get even stronger.
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I often played the blame game, which was a legacy of my fixed mindset task.
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And so my husband and I, I talked about this in mindset, we invented a person we called Maurice, and we blamed him for everything.
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Friggin  Maurice.
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Then we could just get on with it, discuss the issue, and solve it.
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My roommate and I actually have somebody we call Evan Rude.
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Same thing, if something comes up, it s just like Evan Root, and then you just kinda reset.
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Well, here s the part that s interesting about that for me.
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You know that you ve got a fixed mindset, and you also know that Maurice is not a real person, and yet humoring your fixed mindset, somehow that still works?
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Why is that?
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It seems like you can t just blame a leprechaun for your troubles, but apparently that works?
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We have to find ways of humoring
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and working with our fixed mindsets.
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Now, maybe Maurice wouldn t satisfy someone who absolutely had to lay the blame on the other person, which would be sad, but Maurice was good enough for me.
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There s something to be said for finding that workaround.
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Like, okay, I know I ve got a fixed mindset when it comes to certain things in relationships.
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blaming people instead of blaming my partner, I m gonna blame the leprechaun in the closet.
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Now we ve read the book, we ve checked it out.
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I m curious, is there something that you haven t taught in your book or that you haven t talked about before that you can share with us when it comes to this growth versus fixed mindset?
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Well, a colleague of mine in Australia named Susan Mackey has been working with CEOs and managers and teaching them to get in touch with their fixed mindset personas by giving them a name.
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Interesting, so you re literally naming a bad part of your personality.
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You re naming a part, a true part of your personality.
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Someone who often gets in your way.
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So, I was actually in Australia.
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last week and the week before, and I sat in on some of these sessions with bank executives, where they were talking about their fixed mindset personas that they had named.
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And in one case, a bank executive had named the persona Yanni, this Greek
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Macho guy who when this person made a mistake or got criticized, Yanni would jump in and say, you know, destroy that person who criticized you, but at the same time would also say, maybe you re not up to this.
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Maybe you re not good enough.
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One of them named his persona Dwayne because he doesn t like the name Dwayne and doesn t want to be called Dwayne.
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I love that.
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And they were all saying many of them were naming the persona after their father or grandfather who made them feel little when they didn t succeed or who expected them always to be acting in certain ways that were proper.
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So the idea is name it and claim it.
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Give your
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your fixed mindset persona, a name.
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And then, if you and your partner both do that, or you and your relationship partner, or you and your business partner do that, you can talk about it.
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Your partner can say, is that really you, Jordan, or is that Yanni?
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Yanni, I hope not.
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Or you can say, oh my goodness, I m being defensive.
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I think Yanni has reared his head.
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And in this way, you can work with that.
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You can set, as Susan Mackey says, set these little goals every time for how you can deal with that fixed mind set persona more effectively.
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what are you gonna do next time so it doesn t get in your way?
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Perfect, so we can blame somebody else even though if we see that as a clear weakness that just needs to be fixed.
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Are there ways to fix that completely?
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Like eventually are we like, okay, it wasn t Yanni, I m just not doing that anymore and we re over it because I don t need to blame people?
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Or is it kind of like, okay, I ve done that my whole life, blame other people, it s not going anywhere?
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I think
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If you re talking about the fixed mindset persona and you work with it effectively over time,
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it can get less and less frequent and less and less vociferous but I think we always have to watch out for those triggers in the future because maybe you have a criticism from someone who didn t criticize you before or you re criticized for something you weren t criticized before or you have a relationship breakup.
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These are vulnerable points and these are points where
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maybe Yanni feels he can start rearing his head again.
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So I think, yes, you get better and better at it, but you always need to be watchful so that this person that s part of you does not reward you.
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Now, here s something we re fond of saying at the Art of Charm, which is you only go as high as your five closest friends.
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And the reason for this is because you take traits from those people and things like that.
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Now, if you hang around people who have growth mindset, have you seen that it s contagious?
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We haven t studied how contagious it is.
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We are studying that in a research project that we re initiating this fall to see if we teach a growth mindset to certain people, is it gonna spread in their network?
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So ask me again next year.
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You got it.
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Well, it sounds like, I ll take that as a promise to come back at some point.
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I do want to say that if you have friends with a fixed mindset who are competing with you or putting each other down or trying to outdo each other, that will affect you.
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Ah, okay, because that was where I was kind of going with this.
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Can you catch fixed mindset from other people?
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Yes, it s easy to catch from other people because people with a fixed mindset are often quite judgmental and competitive.
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And when you re being competed with or judged, it s hard to resist.
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And you can easily get into that mode of wanting to be the winner, the genius, the one who puts the other person down or shows them up.
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All right, back to Dr. Carol Dweck.
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Yeah, because I ve definitely seen this in business and former partners and things like that or employees here.
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We look for fixed mindset at The Art of Charm when we stuff it out.
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If we don t spot it in the interview process, when we see it in employees, they re outta here.
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And the reason is because I ve seen firsthand that it is contagious.
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A classic example,
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a long time ago, we were working with people, me and AJ and a few other folks, and anytime anything would go wrong, this person was like, well, you know, Jonathan, he didn t do this, so now we gotta deal with this thing.
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And I remember thinking, that s really weird that,
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we re pointing the finger at him, because we all worked on this project, and why did you single him out?
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Like, because he s not here?
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Is that why?
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I mean, it s never the guy who s sitting in front of you, it was always somebody else.
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And I thought, wait a minute, this is really contagious, because I found myself, you know, I d be talking to my mom or girlfriend later, and she d be like, how s everything going?
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Well, freaking Jonathan blew it, and they re like, why do you work with all these morons who keep dropping the ball?
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And the truth is, a team has ups and downs, but when you pick on one person, that person can do no right at that point.
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and you end up having to get rid of somebody or you re blaming somebody or your relationship is deteriorating with somebody because they become a scapegoat.
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Exactly, because it can t be you.
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You don t want to be the loser.
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Right, because gosh, if you made a mistake, man, you re worthless, right?
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And so when you start doing that, then it becomes this weird, hypercritical environment where the person who s not in the room, man, is that guy a screw-up.
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and you ve got to get rid of that blame.
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But I found myself after that partner was later gone, oh man, I m still totally doing this.
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I m looking for this scapegoat.
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Why?
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I never used to do that.
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And the truth is it s because I learned that fixed mindset from that person.
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I m so glad that I have the growth mindset now working here because I don t want to get fired.
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Yeah, there you go, Jason.
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As opposed to people who bring out the best in each other,
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who admire each other, elaborate on what you say, support you in your endeavors, contribute ideas to what you re doing.
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Wow, it s a completely different environment.
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Now, it seems like something that you have to consistently monitor, because this will creep in, because unless you re hanging around, and your study s still TBD, unless you re hanging around people that don t have fixed mindset really at all, which we now know is not a real thing, because everybody s got that little mix, you re gonna have to constantly sort of snipe these little traits from creeping into your own personality, right?
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Yes, yes.
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Also, when you re in that kind of fixed mindset competitive environment,
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you re afraid to say anything.
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It s going to really stifle creativity because what if you say something stupid or that someone thinks is stupid?
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Well, then you are the next Jonathan.
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I worked with a department in a very large Silicon Valley company.
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The department felt that the company had this culture of genius where everything had
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to be brilliant all the time, and that this was in fact stifling their innovation and creativity if everything out of your mouth had to be perfect first time around.
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And so as we worked together, they seized upon one of our ideas to talk about a fabulous struggle.
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They started opening every meeting with, what are you struggling with?
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What s your fabulous struggle?
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Maybe we ll struggle together.
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What are we going to struggle on next?
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And it just kind of released them to brainstorm in an unselfconscious way because struggle was part of what you do as you re working on things you value.
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It s not a sign that you re incompetent.
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Right, yeah.
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Yeah, you start to absorb failure into your identity.
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I can definitely see that.
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So what sort of other practical ways can we stave off fixed mindset?
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How do we spot it?
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How do we become more adept at spotting it creep in and then get rid of it or attack it at the root?
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Because I assume it s easier to get rid of these behaviors early if I see myself going, ah, frigging Jonathan, oh wait, no, I don t do that.
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I don t do that anymore.
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How do we start to, how do we get a jump on fixed mindset so we can tackle it early?
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Yeah, so one thing is to
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really pay attention when you re in a triggering situation.
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What are these trigger points?
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So if you know you re nervous about a new project, or you have to step out of your comfort zone, that s a time when you might try to be sensitive.
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if you ve had a setback, if you re being, so just at those points where the fixed mindset sees this little crack in the facade that it can leap into, those are the times to pay attention.
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Yeah, I suppose that makes, otherwise, if you have a significant other, they ll happily point out any fixed mindsets that you have.
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They re very, I m sure a lot of the things that Jenny finds in me that are,
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suboptimal have to do with fixed mindset, that s for sure.
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And being around somebody in a relationship that has a large growth mindset is probably really powerful for your personal success as well.
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And a colleague of mine from another university, Peter Heslin, also told me about a fun exercise the other day that he does with business people and that you could do at home.
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It might be a little funny to do at home, but suppose you ve really just had a terrible setback, a real disappointment.
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So you sit in one chair and you tell about it.
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Then you move to another chair facing it, and you give then to all your fixed mindset thoughts.
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I ll never be any good.
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I ll never recover from that.
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People will laugh at me when they find out.
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Then you switch to the third chair, the growth mindset chair.
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And then you say, well, OK, maybe that
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Some of that is true, but let s think about what could make it a little bit better?
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What if I tried this?
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That might make it better.
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What if I tried that?
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What if I talked to my friend?
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What if I tried to learn from what happened and tried again?
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You can give reign sometimes to that fixed mindset, but then start talking back to it with those growth mindsets
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ideas and strategies.
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What s the relationship of mindset to willpower?
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I mean, is it something that requires a lot of willpower or is it something that s built with habits?
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What s the relationship here?
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Well, my answer is that a growth mindset can give you more willpower.
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Because you enjoy the effort, you even can enjoy a struggle.
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you can, you have that staying power, you re not always thinking in my tongue, am I a loser?
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Is this going to make me look stupid, blah, blah, blah, blah, or I and I better get out of here before that happens.
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You have the staying power.
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We ve also studied people s ideas about willpower, do they have more of a growth mindset, that willpower itself is
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large and self-sustaining, self-generating, or do they think it s this tiny thing that they use up very easily?
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And we found that this more growth mindset about willpower fuels greater willpower.
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People can keep going and going and feel energized when they believe that.
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Ah, nice, excellent.
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And what about people who don t wanna change?
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There s gotta be some people out there who just don t wanna make the effort.
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What should we do with those people in our life if they work in our business or even if they re in our family or they re close to us?
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First of all, I think that it s up to people whether they want to change or not.
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I think they need to understand, though, that if they wanna stay in their fixed mindset,
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what they re missing.
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Because I believe that at the end of my life, I want to say, I went for it.
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I know what I m capable of.
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I became the person I wanted to be.
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As opposed to I could have been this, I could have been that, and never knowing what you were capable of.
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but it s basically a personal choice.
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On the other hand, as you say, if it s your employee who doesn t want to stop blaming Jonathan or getting on other people or being defensive, then you might want to ask that person to change, to consider changing.
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You might decide that isn t a person who is compatible with the company values.
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And what if it s your kid?
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then you re really committed to working together.
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And then you need to have the family values be consistent with a growth mindset, that you really admire people who struggle, who take on challenges, that, um,
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you act excited when there are mistakes or setbacks, and you say, what can we do next?
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This is so interesting.
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Just model it.
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Because our research is showing if a parent mouths a growth mindset but then doesn t follow it up, doesn t walk the walk, and instead maybe gets nervous when the child s struggling or tries to cover up errors,
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That s not conveying a growth mindset value system and that child is developing a fixed mindset.
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So it s really important for parents to live and model these growth mindset qualities for the child to see these are the values
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of this family.
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Excellent.
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Thanks so much, Dr. Dweck.
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Really appreciate your time, and you know, it s funny, this concept seems very simple, but that s the point, is it s one of those things that I think is so simple that most of us don t really see the fixed mindset as a problem, they don t really see the growth mindset necessarily as something they can develop, and that s why it s so important.
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Right, you know, it seems simple, but it s hard for a lot of people to implement.
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And we re seeing something that I ve started calling fake growth mindset.
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What s that?
4
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It was actually discovered by, excuse me, it was actually discovered by my colleague Susan Mackey in Australia.
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It s when people say they have a growth mindset, but they don t.
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They just say they do.
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They haven t taken the journey.
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They haven t looked inside themselves.
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They haven t done the hard work.
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So, it sounds simple, but it takes work.
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It takes a real journey to implement.
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Excellent.
4
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What do you want to leave with the audience before we close?
4
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Go for it.
4
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Put out that effort.
4
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Bounce back from those setbacks.
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Become the incredible person that you re capable of being.
4
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Great.
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Thank you so much.
4
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Oh, where can people find you and your work?
4
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They can find my work on my website, mindsetonline.com.
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Perfect.
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Thanks so much.
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This has been excellent.
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You re welcome.
5
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Super interesting, Jason.
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You were right, this was solid.
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She s one of my favorite psychologists, and never in my life would I say I have a favorite psychologist.
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Right.
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But man, is she good.
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She is just, the whole fixed mindset versus growth mindset, and just the book in general.
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If you read the book, you ll understand everything we re talking about, and I still say that the reason that I m talking to you right now is because of her book.
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Yeah, I can definitely see that.
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I mean, I ve heard some stories about you back in the day, and it s hard to imagine that person was growth mindset.
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I ll leave it at that.
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Don t be dissing me out on the show.
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Come on.
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You got it.
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Show feedback and guest suggestions.
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The show s a fanarchy.
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It s run by you.
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We rely on you to help keep our finger on the pulse.
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So if you know someone who s a good fit, let us know.
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Jordan at theartofcharm.com.
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If you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Dr. Dweck on Twitter.
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We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as some other talks and resources including her book that we mentioned on the show.
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You can also tap our album art in most mobile podcast players, and you ll see the show notes right on your phone.
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I also post a ton of stuff on Twitter that never makes it to the show, articles, insights, and other stuff.
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I m at theartofcharm on Twitter.
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Bootcamp details, bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
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Remember, we re sold out a few months in advance, so if you re thinking about it, get in touch ASAP, get some info from us so you can plan ahead.
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Also on the website is the blog, you can engage with us there.
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Subscribe to the show on iTunes, write us a nice review, I ll love you forever.
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Special thanks to the Jasons for their help in production of the Art of Charm podcast.
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Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
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Now have a great week and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
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Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
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Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and everything for the extraordinary man at theartofcharmpodcast.com.