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Looking forward to meeting you here at the Art of Charm.
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Today we re talking with Zach Stockhill.
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We re gonna talk about something called retroactive jealousy.
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You know that little twang you get when you start dating somebody and you start resenting their past?
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It s that.
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only sometimes people get it really, really bad.
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We re gonna show you how to deal with it, whether it s bad or not, how you can distract yourself from it, attack the causes, and make yourself a more secure, confident person in the process.
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So enjoy this one with Zach Stockill.
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So tell us what you do in one sentence.
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So I m a writer and I m an educator, and I m really passionate about helping people let go of jealousy and possessiveness in their relationships.
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And how did you get into this?
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I assume you maybe had a little bout with that yourself?
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I did, yeah.
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I fell into this profession more or less by accident.
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I was going through graduate school to be a history professor, basically.
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And I had some experiences that really brought home to me how jealous and sort of possessive I was in my relationships.
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And I got to a place where I was just sort of, I was done with it and I was ready to change who I was and to change that about me because I was realizing that it was impacting my entire life in a really negative way.
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And I was dealing with something which a surprisingly high number of people deal with, which is something called retroactive jealousy or retroactive jealousy OCD.
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which is basically some form of obsessive compulsive disorder where you re thinking about your partner s past, you know, more or less all the time.
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I mean, I tell people just to sort of give them hope because I m sort of over it now, you know, in the worst stage of my retroactive jealousy, it was my partner s past was the first thing I thought about in the morning, the last thing I thought about when I went to bed at night, it was really debilitating.
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And I think a lot of people deal with it.
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I realized when I was struggling with this myself that a lot of people really don t know where to turn and there s very little good information on this topic I would say available to people.
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So I wrote a book called Overcoming Retroactive Jealousy.
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I originally published it under a pen name because I wasn t planning on making a career out of this or really doing anything with it.
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I just wanted to put something out in the world that could help people.
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And to my surprise, it was modestly successful and it s sort of taken off from there because a lot of people are hungry for something.
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So a lot of the advice on the internet I found when I was dealing with this is more or less just get over it, the past is in the past, move on, which if you re dealing with this is extremely difficult to do.
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So I wanted to basically just tell people point blank, this is exactly what I did, this is the process I followed to get over this, and life gets really great once you manage to put it behind you.
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Yeah, it reminds me of this, like, oh, you re short?
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Just try being taller.
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Right thanks.
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Yeah, how do I do that?
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Where do I start with the process?
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Exactly and and even worse I mean a lot of people like I saw I when I was dealing with this you know I would go on forums and see what people are talking about and a lot of people just you know call you a complete asshole and like why are you doing this and and why are you so hung up on the past and you know you re a misogynist and all this stuff and
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even to people who are honestly just looking for help, like how, you know, this is really strange.
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Everyone I talked to, no one can really relate to this.
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How do I get help?
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So there s a lot of sort of people tend to judge people with this condition, not always unfairly, but it s certainly not something that that someone chooses to feel or they re choosing to deal with this.
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Interesting so tell us about a little bit more about what this actually is because I think everybody s Had this at least I know I have and I know a lot of my friends deal with it we get a ton of email about it where people they re dating someone new especially and They can t kind of get over the jealous feelings about things that happened in the past and it can get really bad But then it kind of fades away
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right after a while it s like once you get past the phase of infatuation right and once you get into regular normal relationships if your relationship makes it that far and most don t but once you get past that it s like okay everybody s got to pass it s not that big of a deal but in the meantime you re asking all your friends and you re right a lot of the advice that even i got back way back when i was dealing with this stuff was
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A lot of people were like, oh, that s normal, it ll go away.
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But those were only the high-end coaches that I have access to.
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But most of my friends, even really educated people, especially women who, frankly, should know this stuff, they were like, it s not fair, you re being judgy.
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And I m like, I don t like it either.
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I m not trying to get mad every five minutes.
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This sucks for me too.
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It sucks even worse that I can t get rid of it.
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I don t enjoy this at all.
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And then, yes, and all the guys are like,
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You re being a wuss, man, you re such a pussy, get over it, go bang other chicks and you ll feel better.
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And it s like, that s not helpful either.
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Right, and the flip side to that is, I m not sure how familiar you are with this sort of, the manosphere, I m sure you ve, you know.
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Oh yeah, of course.
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So, and a lot of the advice those guys offer is, you know, she s damaged goods, you know, you, you know, even if she has, you know, like two partners or whatever, it s like, no, she s a slut, you know, you need to move on, whatever.
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just like as you say, it s difficult to sort of get advice that makes sense and that is actually helpful and constructive and productive.
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So how do we know if we have normal retroactive jealousy or if we have like crazy, what do you call it, OCD retroactive jealousy?
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Right, so I would say that some retroactive jealousy is pretty normal.
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Most of the time when you really fall for someone, when you really develop strong feelings for someone, there s going to be something of that.
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Because we love this person, we re totally smitten with them, and the idea of anyone else having them is painful and it s difficult for us to process.
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That s pretty standard.
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What I would say how retroactive jealousy OCD differs from your fairly standard run-of-the-mill retroactive jealousy is when you basically can t stop thinking about it.
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I mean, I have people, you know, I ve got letters from people who say, you know, at some point I was sort of suicidal because it was all-consuming, like most people can t really relate to.
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People who have suffered from obsessive-compulsive disorder can relate to this.
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And basically, you re thinking about it all the time, and most people fall into this cycle where they ask their partner about their past, mostly to get reassurance on something or clarity on something or whatever.
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Their partner gives them an answer, and if they like the answer, then they feel good for half an hour, an hour, a day, and then the cycle repeats itself.
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So they re agitated, they re looking for some sort of temporary, and I emphasize temporary relief,
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Then they get the relief and it feels good for a minute and then the cycle starts all over again.
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I would say if you can t stop thinking about it, you ve got a problem you need to solve.
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Yeah, okay, but how long do we give it?
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Because I think a lot of people maybe go through, well, I think about this all the time.
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I mean, I guess if it s constant, that s one problem.
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Or if it lasts longer than what, a few months or a few weeks?
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I would say if it s over a few weeks, it might be time to check in with yourself.
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And I would say talk to friends, talk to people you trust.
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Ask them about their experience of falling for someone and dealing with these kind of feelings.
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Did they go away?
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How long did you deal with this kind of thing?
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But I d say anything over a few weeks is abnormal, and it might be time to pursue some course of action toward getting help.
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Okay, and so where do we begin with this?
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Because getting help, as we just talked about, is really hard, because you ask your friends and they tell you you re an idiot, and your other friends tell you to get over it, and then some of your other friends tell you you re being a jerk for even thinking that this is a bad thing in the first place.
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Right, so I mean the first thing I would tell people if they re dealing with this and they think that they might be dealing with the more severe type of retroactive jealousy is just stop yourself from harassing your partner about their past.
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Realize that you re doing far more harm than nothing s good is gonna come of this and recognize that you re just repeating the cycle over and over again.
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So be really firm with yourself just to stop talking for a while.
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And as far as different things you can do, I mean medication, some people go on medication that s generally prescribed to OCD patients.
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I didn t do that.
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So I would say, in a nutshell, focus on your insecurity.
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I believe that all jealousy is born of some kind of insecurity.
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And focus on, I call it, perform an insecurity inventory.
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Create some kind of action plan.
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So if you re overweight, work on losing weight.
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Commit to going
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going to the gym three days a week, whatever.
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If you re threatened by perhaps the intelligence of some of your partner s past lovers, whatever, start reading more, listen to podcasts that interest you.
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The basic message I try to put across to people is that what you re dealing with is born out of insecurity, and if you figure out what you re insecure about, if you get really serious about attacking that head on, you re gonna start to see improvements really quickly.
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Alright, back to Zach Stockhill.
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Okay, you kind of distract yourself from thinking about the other person s shortcomings and focus on your own.
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Yeah, more or less, sure.
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And be proactive about it.
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Don t wait for it to go away if it s really debilitating, if it s really bothering you all the time.
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So I often tell people, what are some of the things that humans really, really, really love doing?
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And we love to have sex.
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We love to play sports.
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We love to dance.
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These are experiences that inspire a great deal of joy.
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And I think the main reason they do that is because it gets us out of our heads into our bodies a bit more.
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So, you know, it sounds like sort of a odd answer to your question, but I mean, I think that physical activity is huge.
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You know, I ve got a private discussion group on Facebook for students taking my online course, and everyone s talked about just even just how exercise prioritizing, you know, physical activities has helped them in getting out of their heads a bit more.
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Because when you re dealing with this, it feels like you re sort of a prisoner of your own brain, if that makes sense.
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Sure.
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Yeah, of course.
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And so we focus on, I guess, all those the shortcomings and things we want to improve on.
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Is that because jealousy is essentially related to our own insecurities?
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So we shore it up by attacking things that make us insecure that are not our significant other?
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I think so.
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As I m sure you know, psychologists and biologists differ to a certain extent on whether or not jealousy is natural, whether or not it s inspired by, whether it s mate competition or a woman worrying about her partner squandering resources that would otherwise be for her and her child or whatever.
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But I think that one sort of commonality of all human sexual jealousy is insecurity.
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So focusing on working on that makes a huge difference in terms of getting past it.
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Interesting.
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Now what about jealousy that s actually caused by something
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A little bit more rational, if I can put it that way, like, you know, you see them friends with their ex on Facebook or, you know, there s pictures of them in things.
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These are sort of triggers.
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I don t know if they re rational or irrational.
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I mean, they re pretty normal.
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People have things with other people.
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You know, their past life doesn t cease to exist just because of your relationship.
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However, you know, what are we looking at in terms of the rules when it comes to that?
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Well, I think everyone has to determine their own sort of guidelines as far as that stuff goes.
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But I think one thing I would tell people is just be aware that we re in a really interesting sort of cultural, social moment here in that we re going to be connected with people.
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more than likely, for the rest of our lives.
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So our exes, and our old boss, and our old co-workers, and all these people.
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And that s really the first time that humans have had to deal with that sort of level of interconnectedness, where you can see the baby photos of someone you went to preschool with, that kind of thing.
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It s very strange.
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to people dealing with retroactive jealousy, one of the things I tell people is try to avoid triggers if you can, at least while you re first working on getting over this.
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For example, if you see your partner s ex come up on your Facebook timeline, that s probably gonna inspire some sort of jealous episode.
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So use the block function on Facebook, at least for a little while, just sort of block that person, get them out of your life, or block them on Twitter or whatever.
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So I would say avoid triggers for a while.
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But sort of as an addition to my point about stopping talking to your partner,
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I would say tell them if something they re doing with an ex is really bothering you, be honest about them or be honest about that, but also be realistic.
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It s very likely that most of us are going to have an ex or two or three on Facebook, and it s no big deal.
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More often than not, it s born out of social niceties and just trying to be a nice person.
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You re sort of mildly interested in their current activities, but not really.
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Most of the time, it s totally innocuous.
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So if you feel like your partner is abusing, or not abusing you, but is being sort of inappropriate on Facebook or flirting with an ex or, you know, whatever your particular boundaries are, you know, tell them that they re abusing those boundaries and, you know, be honest about it.
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But also, again, just keep in mind that, you know, this is the 21st century, you know, we re all going to have exes in our lives to some extent.
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And, you know, this is this is more or less normal.
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This is the way we live now.
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Do you think this problem is gonna get worse now that we have things, people are super accessible, and their past life is super accessible?
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I mean, you might be, you could live with somebody for six months or a year, and then that memories thing crops up on Facebook, and it s them with their ex-boyfriend or girlfriend, and you re like, oh.
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Not that they would click share on that, most likely, but that person s gonna be in wedding photos with them.
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There s all kinds of stuff that you can t avoid.
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Do you think it s gonna get worse now that we ve got
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different social medias all up in your face?
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It s on your friggin  watch now.
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Right, I think definitely.
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I mean, A, we re a pretty promiscuous culture, at least in the West, in many ways more so than our parents and grandparents.
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And as you say, things like Facebook, Twitter, whatever, they re keeping this backlog of all our past experiences and pictures and stuff.
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I mean, Facebook is kind of the worst nightmare for someone dealing with intense retroactive jealousy, as you can probably imagine.
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And I think a way to sort of deal with this is to recognize that things are changing and to recognize that we need to let go of possessiveness in our relationships and we need to let go of jealousy if we re gonna be happy in life.
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And so in a way, I tell people retroactive jealousy is a real gift because once you re able to work through that and work past it, life just gets so much better.
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And it s also about expectations.
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I think that a lot of the cultural baggage that we sort of inherit as adults
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whether that came from our childhood or just the sort of cultural milieu that we find ourselves in, it promotes an ideal of love, an ideal of relationships that s often very unrealistic.
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And so when we get out in the world and we start having relationships with people with sometimes damaged pasts or whatever, we think, well, how can this person who I idealize
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have done these things, but it s nonsense.
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We re human, we make mistakes and hopefully we learn from them.
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I think it s important to let go as much as possible and to deprogram from all the cultural influences that aren t really doing you any good.
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For some people, that s Facebook, you know what I mean?
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It s funny, it might be kind of silly, but when I meet someone and they don t have Facebook, my respect for them just skyrockets.
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It s kind of silly, but it might be worth considering getting off all that stuff, or maybe you and your partner want to get off all that stuff.
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I realize not a lot of people will do that, but it depends on what your values are, I guess.
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But it s certainly not a bad idea to disconnect.
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you don t have Facebook.
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I don t know, I m on the fence.
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I m not gonna go off on a thing on this, but usually for me, it s like, that s kinda weird, and then I find myself doing that thing where I m like, do you not have Facebook because you find it distracting and you identified a weakness, or do you not have Facebook because you re into pour-over coffee and it s not cool to have internet in your house and you have mustache wax?
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You know, like, are you one of those guys?
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Yeah, exactly.
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Are you a hipster, or is it like, hey, look, this isn t good for me?
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because we all have those kind of things where it s like, oh, I don t do that.
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Like, I don t do Instagram, I don t do this, I don t do that, this sort of distraction or whatever.
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But yeah, it s like people who don t have a TV, how do you know they don t have a TV?
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Because they never shut the hell up about not having a TV.
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And I haven t had a TV since 98, but I stream crap off the internet.
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But the difference is, I m honest about that, and I think a lot of people are like, I don t even have a TV.
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Yeah, but you ve seen Game of Thrones, you ve seen Breaking Bad, you just download shit, man.
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I m on to you, I m on to you right now.
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Don t even try.
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Totally, I completely agree.
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It s important to not be a Facebook hipster, I think is the main point we re trying to emphasize here.
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That s the main takeaway of the whole show.
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Right.
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Anyway, end rant.
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You also emphasize having accountability groups and things like that.
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Tell us about that, because that seems like a really useful strategy.
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Yeah, so when I was really dealing with intense retroactive jealousy, I was a part of a men s group.
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And I think when a lot of guys hear, you know, the word men s group, they sort of cringe and they think it s, you know, men in the forest taking off their shirts and beating on drums and singing kumbaya or something.
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The sort of outdated,
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early 90s idea of what men s groups are, but I think most people I ve talked to in men s groups, and as well as myself, men s groups are usually just attract, you know, everyday sort of guys who just want to better themselves.
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And it s really nice, as I m sure you know, with your intensives and stuff, you know, it s really nice to just get a group of guys together who you can bounce ideas off of and who you can talk about women with and talk about your insecurities and your struggles and all the rest.
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I mean, joining men s group was a really important experience for me to have that space to just be really open and vulnerable to bounce ideas off other guys to hear about their experiences of relationships and jealousy and all the rest.
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That was a real game changer for me.
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And I realized a
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A lot of guys in small towns and stuff, it s harder to find that sort of thing, but you can find online communities of men who are supportive and all the rest.
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SPEAKER_00
Right now, I m not a part of a men s group, but I have a business mastermind call every week with other guys that s really good for me.
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SPEAKER_00
I think for men dealing with this, it s really important to at least think about joining one.
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SPEAKER_03
Now, what about doing it online?
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SPEAKER_03
Is that something you recommend?
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SPEAKER_00
Well, I haven t, but I ve talked to guys, and to be honest, I m not entirely sure how they find them, but some guys find sort of online men s groups where they do Skype calls or whatever.
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SPEAKER_00
So I m sure Google can point you in the right direction.
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SPEAKER_00
Do you think it s better to do it in person?
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, definitely.
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SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
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I mean, there is just something that I think, you know, we re talking a lot about change and social media and Facebook and all the rest.
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SPEAKER_00
There s just something about actually being with people, you know, like sharing a room with someone, seeing the way they move their body and even the way they smell.
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SPEAKER_00
And like, you know, you get so much more information and you exchange so much information when you actually meet with people in person.
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SPEAKER_00
So, yeah, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_00
And if, you know, when you re out to the bar on a Friday night with your friends, you know, turn your phone off, turn your goddamn phone off, you know, like it always drives me nuts when you see people out on a Friday or Saturday night and everyone s staring down at Instagram or whatever.
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SPEAKER_00
It s like, be present, you know, be in the moment and engage with people.
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SPEAKER_00
people around you.
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SPEAKER_03
Great, yeah, of course.
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SPEAKER_03
Staying present, staying in the moment.
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SPEAKER_03
Always trickier than it sounds, almost cliche, and yet no one does it.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_03
What else?
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SPEAKER_03
I mean, is there something to be said for reconnecting with yourself?
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And I hate woo-woo crap like that, but I think when I ve experienced this, what I found was the more you examine the cause,
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SPEAKER_03
the better off you can be at targeting triggers, like Facebook or whatever other things are triggering you.
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SPEAKER_03
And also, you start to realize, well, wait a minute.
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SPEAKER_03
Okay, reality sets in.
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SPEAKER_03
I don t have to be worried about this person.
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SPEAKER_03
This is just a weird feeling that s being caused by biology.
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SPEAKER_03
There s an evolutionary psychology explanation here that we don t need to get into, probably, but that s what s causing it.
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SPEAKER_03
It ll go away.
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SPEAKER_03
But it s hard to do that if you don t kinda sit down with yourself.
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SPEAKER_00
You know, one experience I have had that was really powerful as I attended this 10 day meditation retreat, and that s going to scare a lot of people off, and you don t necessarily have to do that.
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SPEAKER_00
But in terms of just checking in with yourself, I mean, I often encourage people, just sit down for five minutes in the morning, and just breathe, you know, focus on your breath, focus on your breathing.
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SPEAKER_00
And this is gonna sound really woo-woo, so I m just to prepare you.
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SPEAKER_00
But I often tell people who are dealing with intense jealousy and intense sort of OCD-like feelings, try to work on just observing your thoughts.
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SPEAKER_00
Observe yourself when you re feeling anxious, when your heart rate goes up.
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SPEAKER_00
Try to observe yourself when you re actually getting uptight or you feel a sort of jealous attack coming on.
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SPEAKER_00
And what that means is basically just realize like, oh, okay, I m feeling angry right now.
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SPEAKER_00
I m feeling anxious, whatever.
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SPEAKER_00
And a good way to do that is just to be more conscious of your breathing whenever possible.
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And it sounds weird, but it s actually pretty easy to do.
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SPEAKER_00
You can really just focus on your breath in the car or at work or on the bus or whatever.
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SPEAKER_00
And it helps you just sort of disconnect from identifying with your thoughts and thinking that I am angry and that defines me as a person in this moment.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s like, no, it s not.
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SPEAKER_00
You can decide not to engage with that thought.
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SPEAKER_00
You can decide not to engage with that emotion and move on with your day.
2
SPEAKER_00
Perfect.
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SPEAKER_00
Now, is there anything else that we haven t asked you that you want to make sure you deliver?
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SPEAKER_00
Well, one thing I would tell, so when I first started doing this jealousy thing, this retroactive jealousy thing, I thought that it was going to be mostly men that were dealing with this, but I d say it s probably about 60-40 in terms of the gender split between people who write to me and buy my stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I m talking to the guys in particular here, guys, I found that most guys who are dealing with this are concerned about sex.
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SPEAKER_00
So their partner had sex with other people, and it really bothers them.
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SPEAKER_00
And I would tell guys that I think most men have to realize or all men have to realize that, you know,
2
SPEAKER_00
to have a really fulfilling, exciting, inspiring relationship with a woman, and especially a sexual relationship, you have to be sex positive.
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SPEAKER_00
You can t have all this weird bullshit baggage associated with sex and have this weird Madonna-whore thing going on because your woman is both.
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SPEAKER_00
She s the Madonna and the whore.
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SPEAKER_00
I tell guys, you could see the most virginal, church-going-looking girl walking down the street,
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SPEAKER_00
When she finds the right guy and if there s a connection there, she s going to really let loose.
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SPEAKER_00
Women love sex as much as you do, most women.
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SPEAKER_00
Women are wild, maybe even wilder than you.
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SPEAKER_00
I would say most women are like this.
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SPEAKER_00
go of looking for a virgin or looking for this angel because you re not going to find her and you re not going to have good relationships with women.
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SPEAKER_00
If every woman you meet, you know, feels scared to sort of be honest about her wants and her desires and her relationships and what she wants out of life, you know, it s going to be really unsatisfying if you continue on that path.
2
SPEAKER_03
Excellent.
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SPEAKER_03
Thanks so much, man.
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SPEAKER_03
Much appreciated.
2
SPEAKER_03
All right.
2
SPEAKER_03
Thanks, Jordan.
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SPEAKER_03
I hope you guys enjoyed that.
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SPEAKER_03
It s really interesting, because I m familiar with this feeling.
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SPEAKER_03
I think everybody who s ever had a significant other has probably experienced this.
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SPEAKER_03
What do you think, Jason?
2
SPEAKER_01
If you ve ever had a boyfriend or a girlfriend, you have experienced this, flat out, no doubt.
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SPEAKER_03
And I think some people, right, they just, I guess some people probably get way overboard, and it s like eating at them from the inside out, and they can t function, and they end up ruining their relationship.
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SPEAKER_03
So if that seems like you re edging towards that,
2
SPEAKER_03
maybe check out retroactivejealousy.com and definitely have a listen to the show again if you need to get some tips and action steps to make it happen and get yourself over it.
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SPEAKER_03
Because the other problem with this is even if you do screw up your relationship, you get into another one, the same thing s gonna happen.
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SPEAKER_03
Because it s about you, it s not about them.
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SPEAKER_03
And I think that s one of the key takeaways from this episode.
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SPEAKER_03
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SPEAKER_03
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SPEAKER_03
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SPEAKER_03
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SPEAKER_03
And if you enjoyed this, don t forget to thank Zach on Twitter.
2
SPEAKER_03
We ll have that linked in the show notes as well as my own Twitter.
2
SPEAKER_03
I post a lot on there as well.
2
SPEAKER_03
Feel free to add me on there and engage with me there, I m pretty active.
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SPEAKER_03
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SPEAKER_02
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