0
SPEAKER_01
This is the art of charm.
0
SPEAKER_01
Learn everything you need to know to crush it in business, love, and life.
0
SPEAKER_01
Today we re talking with Dr. Ben Michaelis, PhD.
0
SPEAKER_01
He s a full-time practicing psychologist in Manhattan, so you can imagine the type of people that come through the door, but he s also a popular speaker and a blogger as well, author of Your Next Big Thing, 10 Small Steps to Get Moving and Get Happy,
0
SPEAKER_01
Really interesting points here, a lot of stoicism involved, but we re gonna talk about why it s impossible to avoid stress, cognitive biases that get in your way, how to get the right amount of the right kind of stress.
0
SPEAKER_01
We re gonna talk about different ways to do that in the morning through your exercise and through non-exercise methods.
0
SPEAKER_01
It s interesting that there s a right kind of stress that you re actually supposed to have that will keep you from having too much of the wrong kind of stress.
0
SPEAKER_01
I know it s a little bit of a tongue twister, but it s a really interesting concept that I d never heard before.
0
SPEAKER_01
So enjoy this one with Dr. Ben Michaelis.
0
SPEAKER_01
Welcome, on that note, to The Art of Charm.
0
SPEAKER_01
I m Jordan Harbinger.
0
SPEAKER_01
The Art of Charm brings together the best thought leaders, teachers, and exceptional individuals to teach you how to be a top performer in life, love, and at work.
0
SPEAKER_01
Imagine having a mix of experienced mentors teaching you their expertise
0
SPEAKER_01
packing decades of research, testing, and tough lessons into a curriculum.
0
SPEAKER_01
We may not have all the answers, but we definitely have all the questions.
0
SPEAKER_01
Make sure to stay up to date with AOC and get some great stuff that we can t share on the show by signing up at theartofcharm.com.
0
SPEAKER_01
We ll email you our Fundamentals Toolkit that covers topics like body language and nonverbal communication.
0
SPEAKER_01
persuasion, business networking, public speaking, negotiation, and a whole lot more.
0
SPEAKER_01
I m also doing weekly video drills and exercises to help you move forward every single week.
0
SPEAKER_01
Of course, we ve got our live programs running here in LA.
0
SPEAKER_01
If you re interested in that, you ll hear more about those later on in the show.
0
SPEAKER_01
You can email me, jordanattheartofcharm.com.
0
SPEAKER_01
I also want to encourage you to join us in our social capital challenge.
0
SPEAKER_01
at theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed to 33444.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s charmed to 33444.
0
SPEAKER_01
This challenge is all about improving your networking and connection skills and inspiring those around you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you.
0
SPEAKER_01
This will make you a better networker.
0
SPEAKER_01
It will make you a better connector as well.
0
SPEAKER_01
And if you want some accountability, invite your friends.
0
SPEAKER_01
to go to theartofcharm.com slash challenge or text charmed to 33444 and they can join the challenge too.
0
SPEAKER_01
Enjoy this one with Dr. Ben Michaelis.
0
SPEAKER_01
So tell us what you do in one sentence.
0
SPEAKER_00
I am a clinical psychologist, thought partner, and coach.
0
SPEAKER_01
Okay, what is a thought partner?
0
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s a great question.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s basically, a lot of people come in because they don t have someone necessarily to just bounce ideas off of, and so I end up being a thought partner to lots of pretty smart people that just need an outside source that s not inside their worlds that they can try out ideas on, or for example,
0
SPEAKER_00
One guy who I work with who s a CEO who actually had very limited experience firing somebody needed to fire his number two, and it was very difficult for him, it was very emotional, and so we just kind of worked through it for a while before he actually pulled the trigger.
0
SPEAKER_00
So I kind of think about that as thought partnering rather than therapy.
0
SPEAKER_01
That must have been really tough to fire your, by the time you have a big enough company, your number two s probably been with you for like two decades.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
0
SPEAKER_00
And the emotional relationship that we form with people that we work with, it can sometimes, you know, be more intense than the emotional relationship we have with family members, because we spend so much time, especially, you know, him and people that work around the clock so much time at work.
0
SPEAKER_00
So it was basically like firing a wife or a daughter.
0
SPEAKER_00
So it was a really difficult process and that was, you know, a really, I think a powerful example of how thought partnering can help.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, right now someone out there is going, you can fire your daughter?
0
SPEAKER_01
Hang on a second.
0
SPEAKER_00
That s what this episode s gonna be all about, firing your daughter.
0
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, yeah, that s a good title.
0
SPEAKER_01
And you ve been in a lot of media outlets too, and one of my new policies is, by the way, whenever people list all the media outlets they re on, I pick the lamest one and I talk about that one.
0
SPEAKER_01
So congratulations on the Hallmark Channel s home and family appearance.
0
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that was epic, that was epic.
0
SPEAKER_00
It was a very L.A.
0
SPEAKER_00
experience hanging out in that house with the folks there.
0
SPEAKER_01
I got invited to do something on the Hallmark Channel and they were like, we gotta get going on this segment because we have something with birdhouses, what s up next?
0
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, wow, I m getting bumped for birdhouses.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s all right, though.
0
SPEAKER_00
Like we re doing a story about how next month is March.
0
SPEAKER_01
Just so nobody forgets, because a lot of the people watching the Hallmark Channel might not know that.
0
SPEAKER_01
Excellent, and you re a motivational psychologist, which is something I hadn t heard about, versus a demotivational psychologist, which Jason and I were joking is someone where you re like, my life is over, and they re like, yeah, that s what it sounds like.
0
SPEAKER_01
I ll never find love.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, probably not.
0
SPEAKER_00
That s pretty much how we do.
0
SPEAKER_00
No, I tried the demotivational thing for a while, but I could not,
0
SPEAKER_00
make a go of it for a business.
0
SPEAKER_00
It was fun for me.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, I had like 10 people over three weeks, which is just a total crap to them, and then it just fell apart, so I decided to go with the motivational psychology instead.
0
SPEAKER_01
But what does that mean, though?
0
SPEAKER_01
I mean, how is that different from a regular psychologist?
0
SPEAKER_01
Aren t all psychologists and therapists supposed to motivate you and keep you moving forward?
0
SPEAKER_00
Not really.
0
SPEAKER_00
Actually, in many ways, the field, I think, for a long time has been mired in focusing on the negative and spending a lot of time on people s past.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t really care about – like James Brown, I don t care about your past.
0
SPEAKER_00
Once I have somebody in my office and I do have a sense of who they are and where they come from, I m really focused on two things, which is now and next.
0
SPEAKER_00
and how to get there.
0
SPEAKER_00
I m super concrete with people.
0
SPEAKER_00
People leave my office with very concrete assignments.
0
SPEAKER_00
I really do try to leverage what I know about emotions to get people to do what they say they re going to do, what they want to do.
0
SPEAKER_00
For example, this one woman who I m working with wants to apply for graduate school.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I told her that if she didn t have her essay in, to just not come back the next week.
0
SPEAKER_00
And let me show you.
0
SPEAKER_00
Never saw her again.
0
SPEAKER_00
That was it.
0
SPEAKER_00
That s the demotivational part.
0
SPEAKER_00
No, she came back in with an essay written.
0
SPEAKER_00
And people really do appreciate that.
0
SPEAKER_00
The data really strongly suggests that even though we have all these fantastic apps out there that can kind of keep us on point, the ones that do well are the ones that have somebody on the other end of it.
0
SPEAKER_00
So there s a real human connection that keeps people on track and on point to do what they say they re going to do.
0
SPEAKER_01
You worked on Sesame Street for a while, which I think is kinda cool.
0
SPEAKER_01
I normally, you know, normally I don t dig into people s bios, but I was like, wow, Sesame Street, everybody knows what that is.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that was a great experience.
0
SPEAKER_00
I learned a lot from people that make that show.
0
SPEAKER_00
And what people don t realize about Sesame Street is that it s actually extremely well researched.
0
SPEAKER_00
Everything that you see on the air has been vetted
0
SPEAKER_00
very heavily through a really rigorous research project.
0
SPEAKER_00
It was started by academics, and it really still has that tradition.
0
SPEAKER_00
I really learned a lot about how to get ideas out there in the world from my experiences there, because that show, one of the things that s interesting about Sesame Street is that people think of it as like, oh, the show that teaches ABCs and one, two, threes, but that s actually not really true.
0
SPEAKER_00
By the time that most kids, at least in this country, I should say, are
0
SPEAKER_00
old enough to watch the show and appreciate the show, they know all that stuff already.
0
SPEAKER_00
The show is really about the pro-social messages.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that s why it was pretty radical in the 70s to have a show where black people and white people and Latino people and monsters were all living on the same street.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that was really, in many ways, the idea behind the show.
0
SPEAKER_01
Thanks for being monster inclusive, by the way.
0
SPEAKER_00
I always am.
0
SPEAKER_00
Because when I don t, it s just the hate mail I get.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s just horrible.
0
SPEAKER_00
I can only imagine.
0
SPEAKER_00
I can only imagine.
0
SPEAKER_00
And the writing, the way the monsters write with these crayons, it s just, it s...
0
SPEAKER_00
It s insulting and it s embarrassing.
0
SPEAKER_00
You get these letters from these monsters and you re just like, oh God.
0
SPEAKER_01
You know?
0
SPEAKER_01
So tell me what the social messages are behind that stuff.
0
SPEAKER_01
Because I remember watching Sesame Street and there s whole songs about how hola means hello in Spanish or the French version.
0
SPEAKER_01
I got two versions of Sesame Street living in Detroit because we got Canadian TV.
0
SPEAKER_01
So I got to learn French from the little orange guy and Spanish from the rest of the crew.
0
SPEAKER_00
I thought you were gonna say there was like a special Detroit version that tells you like how to like roam the streets at night with like chain mail and stuff.
0
SPEAKER_01
Right, scavenge.
0
SPEAKER_01
Right, yeah, there probably is now.
0
SPEAKER_01
But what are the social messages in Sesame Street?
0
SPEAKER_01
I mean, this is something I d never thought about.
0
SPEAKER_00
Well, think about it.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, the show came out in 1969.
0
SPEAKER_00
You know, I mean, the civil rights movement, you know, had really
0
SPEAKER_00
just taken hold in the mid- 60s, and the country was still largely segregated.
0
SPEAKER_00
The idea of displaying a street which had different-looking people on it that were all friends and interacted was pretty radical at the time.
0
SPEAKER_00
That was, in many ways, the basis of the show, that and the idea about using commercials to teach concepts to children.
1
SPEAKER_02
a lot of those sort of intercut segments were 60 seconds or less, which at the time was the length of a commercial.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so that was the real breakthrough of Sesame Street in the late 60s, early 70s.
1
SPEAKER_03
I never really thought about that, of course, growing up with it.
1
SPEAKER_03
But you re right, it is kind of like left of center, not propaganda, because it s purely educational in so many ways, but it s a little bit progressive.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_02
And even to this day, what they ve been doing with showing people that have different abilities on the show and featuring characters that are in mobile devices and things of that nature, they re pretty out there.
1
SPEAKER_03
When s the last time you watched Sesame Street?
1
SPEAKER_03
Because it s been a while for me, I gotta be honest.
1
SPEAKER_02
You re really losing touch with your roots, Jordan.
1
SPEAKER_02
You leave Detroit, you go out to the West Coast, and you think, I don t need Sesame Street anymore.
1
SPEAKER_02
Too good for Sesame Street.
1
SPEAKER_03
It was a little earlier than that that I stopped watching, but it is interesting to see.
1
SPEAKER_02
I haven t watched in a few years, and my kids are now a little older, so when my kids were younger, I watched it with them, but I haven t watched it in a couple of years, probably.
1
SPEAKER_03
How do I get on Sesame Street is the real question that I m digging at here.
1
SPEAKER_03
How do you get on it?
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, without putting on an animal or monster suit, that is.
1
SPEAKER_02
You know that Sesame Street is now going to HBO.
1
SPEAKER_02
I did not know that.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s in, I think, 10 days or something, it s gonna debut.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s leaving public television and it s going on HBO.
1
SPEAKER_02
Big Bird s getting a huge raise.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_03
Big Bird s gonna have a nice Tribeca loft.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, he s leaving Sesame Street entirely, living a few blocks away.
1
SPEAKER_02
He s like, it s been a good run, but now it s time to, he wants to move on up like George and Wheezy.
1
SPEAKER_02
As long as they don t do a crossover with Game of Thrones, I think we ll be okay.
1
SPEAKER_02
That would get a lot of ratings, though.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, for sure.
1
SPEAKER_03
But seriously, when I watched it, I remember Crystal Gale, who was this country singer from the 70s and 80s was on there.
1
SPEAKER_03
She had really long hair, I remember that.
1
SPEAKER_03
I think Dolly Parton was on there.
1
SPEAKER_03
But now you hear, oh, Justin Bieber s going on Sesame Street.
1
SPEAKER_03
Or maybe not Bieber, but...
1
SPEAKER_03
Justin Timberlake.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, he might have been, but it seems strange because when I was young, I had to ask my parents who those people were, and I thought later on that it s weird that there s celebrities that go on the show, because it just seems like, what s the point?
1
SPEAKER_03
It s just almost like a rite of passage.
1
SPEAKER_03
It s like being on The Tonight Show or something.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I think that s exactly it.
1
SPEAKER_02
And of course, if you ve got kids, it s like for them.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I think that s why Tina Fey did the Muppet movie, the more recent Muppet movies for kids.
1
SPEAKER_02
They were like psyched about it.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I think she likes the Muppets too,
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I mean, let me know when you want me to come and hang with Oscar the Grouch and Cookie Monster.
1
SPEAKER_02
I will definitely, I ll see if I can make some calls on your behalf, Jordan.
1
SPEAKER_03
Let s talk a little bit more about your work outside of Sesame Street.
1
SPEAKER_03
One thing I thought that was interesting is you argue that it s pointless to try to avoid stress, which is contra to a lot of what people are talking about these days.
1
SPEAKER_03
Limit stress, avoid stress, de-stress, detoxify to de-stress, all these different things, and you re like, look, there s no point in doing that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, when we think about stress, we tend to think about distress, which is like when you ve got a difficult boss, or the equipment of your iPhone isn t working for a podcast, that kind of stuff where you feel like you re out of control.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s only part of stress, that s distress.
1
SPEAKER_02
But there s another kind of stress, which doesn t get as much publicity, which is known as eustress, which is E-U-S-T-R-E-S-S.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it means positive stress.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that s the kind of stress that you get from
1
SPEAKER_02
a coach or a parent that s just trying to get you to be your best, that s really just pushing you along.
1
SPEAKER_02
And the reality is that
1
SPEAKER_02
Without stress, we don t develop, we don t do anything.
1
SPEAKER_02
We need stress to develop and learn.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so it s a matter of just figuring out how to get the right kind of stress in your life and to minimize the kind of distress where you feel like you re out of control.
1
SPEAKER_02
We lump stress into one category.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s right.
1
SPEAKER_02
And without some degree of stress, we wouldn t do anything.
1
SPEAKER_02
We just sit around and stare at our belly buttons.
1
SPEAKER_02
it s stress that gets us out of the house.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s stress that gets us to develop to learn.
1
SPEAKER_02
And
1
SPEAKER_02
Even this experience, which I m totally enjoying, by the way, there s some stress involved, because we re having an interaction, and we re both, right now, if you were to measure our heart rates, our heart rates are up a little bit more, because we re having an exchange, which is, this is some form of stress, and when you re asking me questions, it s getting me to think, and this sort of back and forth is some degree of stress, and I think that that s, it s a very positive thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
You just need to be aware that, again, not all stress is created equal.
1
SPEAKER_00
Hey, Art of Charm listeners, I m excited to share a new podcast I ve been absolutely binging.
1
SPEAKER_00
Winning is an everyday mindset, and Craig Robinson and John Calipari are here to help.
1
SPEAKER_00
On Ways to Win podcast, Craig and Coach Cal use their on-court wisdom to solve your off-court problems.
1
SPEAKER_00
Whether it s trouble at home or a workplace dilemma, the coaches will help you find a winning formula for success.
1
SPEAKER_00
You ll hear from prominent athletes, business leaders, and celebrities who reveal insights that made them into the leaders they are today.
1
SPEAKER_00
And don t miss President Obama sharing how he deals with pressure by projecting confidence, believing in your team, and taking criticism.
1
SPEAKER_00
Listen to Ways to Win wherever you get your podcasts.
1
SPEAKER_01
Over the last 17 years, we have launched our fair share of online courses, coaching programs, and finding the right platform has always been a challenge.
1
SPEAKER_00
They say if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life.
1
SPEAKER_00
But if you re an entrepreneur, you know the hard work that comes with it.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s why you need Kajabi.
1
SPEAKER_00
Kajabi makes it easy to run your entire online business from one platform so you can focus on what you love, creating.
1
SPEAKER_01
Kajabi is the ultimate all-in-one platform that helps creators and entrepreneurs build successful online businesses by unlocking predictable recurring revenue.
1
SPEAKER_00
No matter your niche, Kajabi makes it easy to turn your skills, passions, and experiences into enriching online courses, exclusive membership sites, subscription podcasts, thriving communities, personalized coaching, and more.
1
SPEAKER_01
The best part, Kajabi doesn t cut into your revenue because everything is owned and controlled by you.
1
SPEAKER_01
So keep 100% of what you earn.
1
SPEAKER_00
And with Kajabi, you also get robust analytics, easy payment options, email marketing tools, and customizable website templates, all built in.
1
SPEAKER_01
You don t even need a huge audience to make sustainable income.
1
SPEAKER_01
There are thousands of creators on Kajabi making six and seven figures with less than 50,000 followers.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right now, Kajabi is offering a free 30-day trial to start your business if you go to kajabi.com slash charm.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s K-A-J-A-B-I dot com slash charm.
1
SPEAKER_01
Go to kajabi.com slash charm and join the creators and entrepreneurs who have made over $7 billion.
1
SPEAKER_03
So isn t this kind of a semantic argument though, because of course people are gonna not avoid the stress of getting a good media appearance, but they re gonna avoid the stress of worrying about something that might never happen that s causing them to lose sleep.
1
SPEAKER_02
Well, you know, then you re starting to get into a question about anxiety.
1
SPEAKER_02
And anxiety is different from stress.
1
SPEAKER_02
Anxiety is basically like a false alarm.
1
SPEAKER_02
And the reality is that, and this is why I tend to focus only on two things in my practice, which is now and next, because the only truth, the only reality that ever exists is the reality of right now.
1
SPEAKER_02
The future doesn t exist yet, because it hasn t happened, and the past is in your mind.
1
SPEAKER_02
And
1
SPEAKER_02
Anxiety is basically like your alarm system is going off saying, oh, my God, something bad is going to happen.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I m going to try to, you know, it s sort of like your mind fools you into thinking that you re actually thinking about it, but you re not most of the time, what s happening is your mind is just circling around and around and around for possibilities that never exist.
1
SPEAKER_02
So for example, when I was in graduate school, I worked with this patient who had a tremendous fear of flying.
1
SPEAKER_02
And she started dating this guy who was from Europe,
1
SPEAKER_02
And he wanted to bring her home for the holidays.
1
SPEAKER_02
And in the weeks leading up to that break, she was, she would come into each session with all these ideas about what could possibly go wrong on the way there.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right?
1
SPEAKER_02
She would say, Oh, what if the plane crashes?
1
SPEAKER_02
It was just on and on and on.
1
SPEAKER_02
And what actually happened was they got into a minor fender bender on the way to the airport.
1
SPEAKER_02
And they were fine.
1
SPEAKER_02
They were totally fine.
1
SPEAKER_02
But what was sort of interesting about that is when she told me about it is that was the thousandth and first scenario.
1
SPEAKER_02
You know, the one thing she didn t think of is the thing that happened.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that s the nature of anxiety is it s a very seductive process in the mind that makes you think that you re thinking about the future, but you re actually you re not actually planning, you re just
1
SPEAKER_02
sort of running scenarios over and over and over again without the actual data, which is what s actually happening.
1
SPEAKER_03
Why do humans do that in the first place, do you know?
1
SPEAKER_02
Well, I actually believe that we re sort of wired for anxiety.
1
SPEAKER_02
Makes sense, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
The reality is that those of us that have come down through evolution, people who have survived, have survived
2
SPEAKER_01
because our ancestors were super vigilant.
2
SPEAKER_01
They were very worried about things going wrong, so they would take precautions.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so the people that are left are the people that have been sort of inbred to be anxious.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so it is truly a part of our inherited thinking patterns that we ve taken on from our ancestors.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so that makes sense.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of like, it s a survival mechanism of figuring out worst case scenario and maybe planning for it and or triggering that fight or flight, but we tend to live in it now.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s exactly right.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s exactly right.
2
SPEAKER_00
So with your clients, for example, how are you looking at the bigger picture of their emotional well-being?
2
SPEAKER_00
These guys who are probably financially successful, you have a practice in Manhattan, for God s sake, anybody who s walking in that door has probably got the bank account to back up some of their troubles here.
2
SPEAKER_00
So what do you focus on with these guys and girls?
2
SPEAKER_01
I m so glad that you point that out.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s absolutely true.
2
SPEAKER_01
One of the concerns that people often express in here is a fear about running out of money.
2
SPEAKER_01
I often say basically what you just said, which is the reality is that you re probably not going to run out of money.
2
SPEAKER_01
Again, a lot of the people these days who I see, that s not really the issue for them, but money itself, we re not actually wired to understand money.
2
SPEAKER_01
Money is this totally recent abstract concept on the evolutionary stage that we don t understand.
2
SPEAKER_01
What we understand is food.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that we understand because that s been obviously what we ve worried about for most of our lives, like how are you going to have dinner, so to speak.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so what we end up doing is we end up mixing up these concepts of am I going to have enough food with am I going to have enough money.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so trying to get people to focus on problems that are actual problems versus imagined problems, that s a challenge to try to get people to see that certain things are things that are actually within the realm of things they can have an influence over, certain things that are not.
2
SPEAKER_01
One of the things that often comes up in my office is the notion of control.
2
SPEAKER_01
People like to think that they have control over things, and the reality is that none of us have control over really anything.
2
SPEAKER_01
If we re lucky, we have influence over things, and that s a great thing, but it s an important distinction to make that we have, hopefully we have influence over things, but we do not have control over things.
2
SPEAKER_01
What do you recommend we do, relinquish the idea of control?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you can cultivate the notion of influence in your life.
2
SPEAKER_01
And most of us have, well, hopefully, if we re fortunate, we have influence over things.
2
SPEAKER_01
But the pressure of control is something that, you know, often burdens people because they feel that, well, I can t control this.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the tighter we hold on to things and try to control them, oftentimes, the more difficult it is to actually have influence over them.
2
SPEAKER_00
So how do we start to right that ship then?
2
SPEAKER_00
How do you teach your clients to look at the idea of relinquishing control as a good idea?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because it seems like, to me, I want to influence everything in my life because I m a control freak, that s probably why I run a small business in the first place.
2
SPEAKER_00
How do you start to fix or rewire that process?
2
SPEAKER_01
Some of it is truly biological, even though obviously I m trained as a clinical psychologist.
2
SPEAKER_01
I read a lot about exercise and nutrition and meditation.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m a huge proponent of meditation in all of its forms because when you do integrate these sorts of things in your life, like let s just take exercise for a minute, a lot of people who are having difficulties with mental health are not taking care of their physical health.
2
SPEAKER_01
and the relationship between the two is so airtight at this point, if you are
2
SPEAKER_01
exercising at least a few times a week, you re much less likely to be concerned about control, you re much less likely to be stressed at all times because you re actually providing your body with appropriate stress.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I can go on and on about the literature about this, but the value of cardiovascular exercise to the mental state is incredible.
2
SPEAKER_00
How do we get from, okay, do a lot of exercise, to, oh, suddenly I feel more comfortable not being in control of everything directly?
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that doesn t really make sense to me.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, as you can tell already, a lot of my work is coming from evolution and evolutionary psychology, evolutionary biology.
2
SPEAKER_01
our bodies, which, which are a lot of what we walk around with, don t get nearly enough activity for how much that they require, essentially.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so there s a lot of excess energy basically built up, given how many calories we tend to consume in a day.
2
SPEAKER_01
And there s really nowhere to go for them, except essentially burn them off through anxiety.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so if you are taking care of yourself from a cardiovascular standpoint, you re actually you do become
2
SPEAKER_01
calmer because you re actually burning up some of those, it s sort of like with little kids or with dogs.
2
SPEAKER_01
I hate to say it, but like, you know, you wouldn t, if you have, do you have a dog, Jordan?
2
SPEAKER_01
No, but I grew up with one.
2
SPEAKER_00
Jason has a dog.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I just got a puppy.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like you wouldn t, you wouldn t let your dog sit around all day without taking your dog for a walk at least a couple of times.
2
SPEAKER_01
Jason.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, every 10 minutes.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you want to tell us something, Jason?
2
SPEAKER_01
Is this like a confession time?
2
SPEAKER_01
No, no, no.
2
SPEAKER_01
I just got a puppy, so I know all about this.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s the same concept.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you don t let your kids get exercise, they have a lot of pent-up energy.
2
SPEAKER_01
Same thing with adults.
2
SPEAKER_01
Look, we get older, but we don t necessarily grow up.
2
SPEAKER_01
like all the same patterns and processes that are with us in childhood are still with us in adulthood.
2
SPEAKER_01
Anyway, that s a long-winded, annoying explanation for why cardiovascular exercise is so important to mental health and especially to anxiety.
2
SPEAKER_00
Huh, so basically, let me see if I m following you here.
2
SPEAKER_00
The need for control creates a little bit of energy, because we don t actually have that control, and that nervous energy can be burned off by having anxiety and biting your nails and doing all the little nervous habits that people have, or you can burn it off by going for a long jog or a bike ride instead.
2
SPEAKER_00
Both of those things will process the need for control.
2
SPEAKER_00
One, of course, exercise being the more efficient way to do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Is that kind of what you re saying, or am I missing something?
2
SPEAKER_01
That s, in essence, that s it.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s not just about control, but yes, it does burn off some of the sort of excess energy that gets wrapped up into things like control and anxiety.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, all right, we already know that people need to exercise to be healthy, so let s sort of jump through this a little bit.
2
SPEAKER_00
What other things do you find get in the way for your clients?
2
SPEAKER_00
You mentioned before cognitive biases getting in their way.
2
SPEAKER_00
What types of things are we talking about?
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, you know one of the cognitive biases is the illusion of control it s something that stays with us that we we think that we have more control over things than we actually do and When you can break things down and focus on so for example one person who I m working with is applying to medical school and He put himself in a very very good position but he didn t get into the first few schools that he applied to and he came in and he
2
SPEAKER_01
you know, he was quite distraught and he said, look, you know, I m not going to get in anywhere.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I said, well, look, the reality is, is that you have done what you can do.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right now, because you don t have an answer, you re feeling uncertain, so you re trying to reassert control, but there is no control.
2
SPEAKER_01
The applications are out, and right now, actually, what I ve been trying to do is just get him to be distracted until he gets an acceptance, which is the high likelihood that he will ultimately be accepted.
2
SPEAKER_01
In these periods of unknown, we tend to try to reassert some form of control.
2
SPEAKER_00
By worrying or something.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
Got it, okay, interesting.
2
SPEAKER_00
I didn t realize that worry was
2
SPEAKER_00
and attempt to control a situation that you could not control.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, one thing that I think is interesting is that people have unbelievable resources and resolve.
2
SPEAKER_01
And when situations don t go well, I ve seen people come up with extraordinary problem-solving abilities.
2
SPEAKER_01
More often than not the difficulty is sort of what I call anticipatory anxiety It s the anxiety leading up to the event.
2
SPEAKER_01
That is the main source of stress It s when people actually have to do something when there s like an actual emergency that people are actually pretty usually pretty adaptable That s a relief and surprising
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no, it s true.
2
SPEAKER_01
Look, we re pretty adaptable bunch.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you mentioned something earlier, which I think was an astute point, which is like the fact that, you know, basically, things are moving so rapidly, and that everything feels like it s sort of a state of emergency these days, and everything needs to be done right now.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the reality is that there are some things that are actual emergencies, but they re pretty limited.
2
SPEAKER_01
What s really important
2
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, we tend to think, we tend to sort of get caught up in the idea that everything is important, but not everything is an emergency.
2
SPEAKER_00
We talked pre-show as well, and earlier in the show, about the right type of stress.
2
SPEAKER_00
How do we get the right amount of stress to be at that sort of optimal operating point without going overboard and becoming the nervous Nelly who s constantly facing anxiety in the pursuit of high performance, or the right type of eustress, as you called it?
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, this is an individual thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
There isn t really a blanket, a formula for this.
3
SPEAKER_02
because some people just have a lot of energy and need for stimulation and some people don t.
3
SPEAKER_02
But the one thing I can say is to one of the keys to looking out for yourself is if you start to behave in ways that are sort of illogical,
3
SPEAKER_02
If you start to fall back on patterns, if you start to get into arguments with people, if you tend to think that people are maybe—I don t mean this in a full-on paranoid sense, but if you think that everyone s out to get you, or people are against you, or again, you re getting into fights, or you re finding that you are retreating from society a little bit, or you re eating more than usual, or you re sleeping more than usual, anything that
3
SPEAKER_02
Anything that is a change in your equilibrium usually can signify a difference in stress and maybe you have too much stress or too little stress in your life potentially.
3
SPEAKER_02
So looking for those kinds of changes are often good ways to tell if you are either understimulated or overstimulated.
3
SPEAKER_00
so we can look at basically the results of the stimulation itself, and we can say, okay, this is obviously too much, this is not enough.
3
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, let me just sort of stop here, because I can definitely see, wow, I ve got too much stress, you know, I m chewing my nails down to the bone, and I haven t slept in three days, that s too much stress.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do we know if we don t have enough?
3
SPEAKER_00
That seems weird.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I m too relaxed.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, nobody ever says that.
3
SPEAKER_02
Well, it s not really that.
3
SPEAKER_02
I think about it as being understimulated or underused.
3
SPEAKER_02
A lot of times, when you have a lot of capacity, if you are doing something, you re working at a job that isn t really taxing you intellectually or cognitively, that isn t stretching you, you can end up having a lot of the same experiences as if you re overstressed.
3
SPEAKER_02
For example,
3
SPEAKER_02
A number of years ago, I was working with this woman who had been working at a job at a hospital.
3
SPEAKER_02
She was a very, very bright woman, but she was just finding that she was having a lot of stress.
3
SPEAKER_02
It wasn t really coming from work necessarily, but she was just finding that she was generally kind of stressed.
3
SPEAKER_02
It seemed to me that she was sort of overqualified for her job.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it turned out, as I peel back the layers a little bit more, that she d sort of taken this job when her kids were born, just around when her kids were born, because she wanted to spend more time at home.
3
SPEAKER_02
But the reality is that job was kind of an off-ramp for her.
3
SPEAKER_02
that really wasn t serving her anymore.
3
SPEAKER_02
And once she realized that and she found a job that was a little bit more challenging, she was, challenging for her intellectually, she actually was in a much better place.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wow, so you can actually be stressed out by having something that s not challenging enough.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s something that makes total sense that I haven t really thought about recently, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
You can be stressed out knowing
3
SPEAKER_00
Because that s sort of a deeper level stress, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
You know you re not fulfilling your potential.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s not necessarily the job, the day-to-day of the job that s stressing you out, it s the fact that you re bored and you know you re wasting your time.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and people will sometimes create stresses for themselves in those situations, like get into more conflicts with other people at work, and they re actually sort of, on some level, trying to stimulate themselves.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I ve seen this happen plenty of times where people are just under-challenged where they are.
3
SPEAKER_00
So all right, we know we need the optimal amount of stress, we know when we don t have enough slash too much.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do we get the right kind of stress in our life?
3
SPEAKER_00
Are there things we can do each day to kind of get us in the optimal stress zone so that we don t do something by accident or even on purpose to max out the meter and go drive ourselves crazy?
3
SPEAKER_02
Yes, and I have to say that was very well put, exactly what you just said.
3
SPEAKER_02
I almost want to steal that phrasing.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s exactly it.
3
SPEAKER_02
We end up trying to max things out inappropriately at times.
3
SPEAKER_02
Some of the things that we can do, I mentioned some of the obvious ones that people know about exercise.
3
SPEAKER_02
One thing that I can t admittedly say I do it all year round because I noticed that I m not doing it now in the winter is taking ice cold showers.
3
SPEAKER_02
I definitely do it more as it gets warmer, and there s a lot of literature about people that do this that tends to tax the system in a very short-term way and actually leaves you calmer.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s also all kinds of health benefits to taking ice-cold showers.
3
SPEAKER_02
Katherine Hepburn was famously—she went on this whole campaign trying to get people in Hollywood to do it, and no one did it.
3
SPEAKER_02
Tony Robbins swears by this.
3
SPEAKER_02
Ferris i think he s found some literature about this as well so taking ice cold showers is a good way to give your body a little bit of stress in the morning that can help you throughout the day.
3
SPEAKER_01
And i ve gotta say i ve been doing ice shower since i was nineteen except this morning when i woke up and the.
3
SPEAKER_01
The water heater blew up, and I took an ice shower because I had to, and I didn t want to.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that was not the right type of stress today.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and especially in that case, because I found that the cold water in the summer is a lot warmer than the cold water in the winter.
3
SPEAKER_02
So, you know, like I m sure that it was ice, it was freezing, really, really freezing.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that s, I think that Tony Robbins writes about this, but like he has it, you know, down to the temperature, like a certain, I don t know the number, but he has the optimal temperature.
3
SPEAKER_02
He takes an ice bath every morning.
3
SPEAKER_00
So basically what we re saying is having the right kind of maybe low-level stress will prevent us from subconsciously creating way too much of the wrong kind of stress.
3
SPEAKER_00
So we re sort of fine-tuning it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m trying to think of a good analogy.
3
SPEAKER_00
I usually don t get stuck for analogies, but this is really interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of like warming up a car so it s the right temperature to drive versus overheating it by just slamming on the gas and tearing off down the highway.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s exactly, exactly right.
3
SPEAKER_02
And again, you put it very well, quite succinctly.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s exactly it.
3
SPEAKER_02
You re trying to find the right temperature.
3
SPEAKER_02
And there was an article that came out recently about how the stress that from exercise and the micro tears that your body goes through is very helpful for you when you get a cold.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that because, again, there s certain types of inflammation that you re almost training your body to how to deal with inflammation.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so it s more effective in fighting off colds.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it s kind of the same thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
You re keeping your mind at a certain level of stress so that you can be in the optimal zone of performance.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then there are times, of course, when you will want to totally de-stress and be away from it all, like on vacation.
3
SPEAKER_02
But generally speaking, you want to be at a low level of stress.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s certainly contrary to what a lot of health advice is, which is be as de-stressed as possible.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that s inaccurate.
3
SPEAKER_00
Why is that the case, though?
3
SPEAKER_00
Why can t we just stay super relaxed all the time?
3
SPEAKER_00
Is it because external events and or our subconscious mind will sabotage that anyway, and it ll be much more harmful than just gearing it up to five instead of taking it to 11?
3
SPEAKER_02
Well, you know, I mean, again, using the kind of the analogy, the physical analogy, like if your system isn t ready for stress, it s almost like immunizations, like you have to be exposed to a lots of pathogens, so that you can, you know, get used to them.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that s just reality.
3
SPEAKER_02
We all come into contact with pathogens.
3
SPEAKER_02
If we have had an immune system that hasn t had any contact with these things, our bodies kind of go into shock and dealing with them.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it s a similar thing for the mind.
3
SPEAKER_01
So this is very, it s very stoic philosophy here, like how Seneca would, you know, eat really bad food and wear really bad clothes for a week or a couple of days out of every month just to remind himself that things ain t that bad and prepare him for if something really went down, like his system could actually handle that.
3
SPEAKER_01
This philosophy definitely does come from the Stoics.
3
SPEAKER_02
I ve got, you know, Marcus Aurelius s literature here on my shelf.
3
SPEAKER_02
And yes, this definitely comes from a lot of those ideas.
3
SPEAKER_00
Alright, back to the show.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now last but not least, we talked about an interesting cognitive exercise, and the question was, what s the first thing to do when you miss a train, or when you miss the subway, when you miss an airplane flight?
3
SPEAKER_00
What type of thought exercise is this?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because when I was thinking about this and doing it myself pre-show,
3
SPEAKER_00
I have two answers and they re both dependent on the current mood that I m in, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
One is if I m really laid back and I m not in a hurry and I m with people, all right, let s figure out how to solve this problem, let s go to the gate, figure out how we can get on a different flight, if it costs a little money, no big deal, we maybe have to wait, let s get the wifi out, do some work.
3
SPEAKER_00
If I m in a bad mood and already stressed, I can t even say it on the show because we ll have to change our rating
3
SPEAKER_00
and we won t be able to put it on the radio.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it really depends on what s happened before that, what side of the bed I woke up on, et cetera.
3
SPEAKER_02
So the key here is, this sort of circles back to what we ve been talking about earlier about what you can influence, what you can control, which I again say is very little of what you can actually control.
3
SPEAKER_02
When you miss a train,
3
SPEAKER_02
there s an immediate process that many of us go through, which is we think about what if, if only I hadn t stopped to tie my shoelace, if only I hadn t, you know, stopped for those two seconds to say hello to that person, I would have made this train.
3
SPEAKER_02
And a lot of us do this.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it s a foolish exercise, because there s
4
SPEAKER_00
There s an infinite regress there, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
You could just keep on going back and back and back throughout the day.
4
SPEAKER_00
We only do that because that s what we have the capacity to do, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
We can think about two or three moves.
4
SPEAKER_00
We can t think about 100,000 moves or more.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so when you remind yourself of that and you take the time to actually breathe and be in the present and say, what can I do now?
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a great exercise.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s something that you can literally do if you take a train.
4
SPEAKER_00
You can do every day.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because I think it is, in some ways, it s sort of like a meditation, sort of realizing
4
SPEAKER_00
what you have control over and what you don t, and being present.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it does sound to me, Jordan, like, you know, you do this to some degree, which is like, you know, again, maybe it s when you re woke up on the right side of the bed, but you think about what s the most adaptive thing I can do in this moment.
4
SPEAKER_00
at those times as opposed to getting totally lost in holding on to the past.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like the train s already gone, the plane s already gone.
4
SPEAKER_00
So going back and sort of circling around about what you could have done is really a pointless exercise that really does nothing but wind you up.
4
SPEAKER_02
And we know that intellectually though, but in the moment, how does this become a drill that we can work on or that improves us in some way, other than knowing that we re frustrated?
4
SPEAKER_00
Again, I think of it as an opportunity to exercise something in our minds and in our beings, if you will.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s going to take a little time.
4
SPEAKER_00
Most interventions don t happen right away, but if you re listening to this and you re thinking about this, maybe not the next time you take the train, but the time after, you ll think about this and you ll say, hey, what can I do here?
4
SPEAKER_00
I m going to stop.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m going to breathe.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I m going to focus on where I am right now, not the sort of endless, circuitous machinations of the mind, which are trying to get me to think about things that are no longer relevant, and try to keep yourself present.
4
SPEAKER_00
And there may be opportunities there that exist from missing that train, and sort of really just trying to take it as an actual exercise that you can do to help train your mind to realize what things you can influence and what things you can t influence.
4
SPEAKER_02
Thank you very much, Dr. Ben Michaelis.
4
SPEAKER_02
Your next big thing, we ll have that linked up in the show notes as well, the old Amazon link there, and we ll have your website linked in the show notes as well.
4
SPEAKER_02
Thank you so much for your time and your expertise.
4
SPEAKER_00
Thanks a lot, Jordan, great talking to you.
4
SPEAKER_00
All right, good job, man.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it was really fun.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you guys, I mean, you re...
4
SPEAKER_00
you re great.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, really, I m not I m not just saying that, like, I have a lot of podcasts on my phone, you know, and I really enjoy listening to you.
4
SPEAKER_00
There s such a difference in quality when you re this reporter called me like not that long ago.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, really impressed with him.
4
SPEAKER_00
I didn t really know, I didn t know him beforehand.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I was just amazed at the quality of thought and questions that he asked.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then I googled him afterwards.
4
SPEAKER_00
And he s like a totally big deal.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, he s written a lot of stuff, written a bunch of books and like, you know, you can tell when someone s quality and I really feel that way about what you guys do.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I really am glad to be on the show.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, thank you very much.
4
SPEAKER_02
We re glad to have you as well, and of course, we ll link to your work in the show notes.
4
SPEAKER_02
Best of luck with the book launch.
4
SPEAKER_02
I know that can be a super big, stressful deal as well, so make sure you re taking your cold showers.
4
SPEAKER_00
Will do, will do.
4
SPEAKER_00
Thanks a lot, guys, appreciate it.
4
SPEAKER_02
Interesting stuff, I had no idea there were different, I guess maybe I did, but different types of stress, both good and bad, and that having the right amount of good stress could avoid you overloading on the bad kind.
4
SPEAKER_02
Kind of puts another feather in the cap of exercise, which everybody knows they need, but I like the cold shower idea, and I like the other sort of cognitive exercises to get us and get our heads in the right place.
4
SPEAKER_02
If you enjoyed this one, don t forget to thank Dr. Ben on Twitter.
4
SPEAKER_02
We ll have that linked in the show notes, as well as, of course, his book and his website.
4
SPEAKER_02
you can tap the album art in most mobile podcast players.
4
SPEAKER_02
By the way, that s the logo with me and AJ, cartoon me and AJ, to see the show notes right on your phone.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I m on Twitter as well, at The Art of Charm, so come say hi there.
4
SPEAKER_02
Bootcamp details for our live programs, bootcamp.theartofcharm.com.
4
SPEAKER_02
Get in touch, get some info that way.
4
SPEAKER_02
And remember, subscribe and review in iTunes.
4
SPEAKER_02
helps us feel proud, and keeps us up in the ranks so that other people can find the credible advice that they need.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s also the best way to support the show, other than purchasing products and training from us.
4
SPEAKER_02
Special thanks to both the Jasons and to Fogarty for their help in production of the Art of Charm podcast.
4
SPEAKER_02
Go ahead, tell your friends, because the greatest compliment you can give us is a referral to someone else, either in person or shared on the web.
4
SPEAKER_02
Now have a great week, and leave everything and everyone better than you found them.
4
SPEAKER_02
Thanks everybody.
4
SPEAKER_01
Thanks for listening to the Art of Charm.
4
SPEAKER_01
Get more confidence, relationship skills, life hacks, and more at theartofcharmpodcast.com.