Russell E.             INT: As we talked about earlier the
beginning of the sixties, what was the perception of Russia? Was
it as an evil empire that expansionist theories or...?  WL: The
political perception in those days, I think... and beginning of
the sixties, was very much along those lines, far more realistic
than it later became...  INT: (Interrupts) One more time, if I
came...  WL: (Interrupts) Along the lines that it was an evil
empire and expansionist. Nobody used the term 'evil empire', but
there still was a perception in political terms, it was an
expansionist state on the make, that was widespread and by the
mid-1960s, especially in CIA that was badly eroded away and
lost. And along with that came the perception that we were
responsible for the Cold War and not the Russians and so forth,
that was endemic into a lot of the intelligence community again,
especially CIA in that period. It reflected in the estimates and
that they would not try to catch up with us in ICBMs or anything
like that. The ma