The origin of the idea in the Western tradition can be traced to the 5th century BCE starting with the Ancient Greek pre-Socratic philosopher Democritus and his teacher Leucippus, who theorized matter's divisibility beyond what can be perceived by the senses until ultimately ending at an indivisible atom. The Indian philosopher, Maharshi Kanada also proposed an atomistic theory, however there is ambiguity around when this philosopher lived, ranging from sometime between the 6th century to 2nd century BCE. Around 500 BC, he postulated that if we go on dividing matter (padarth), we shall get smaller and smaller particles. Ultimately, a time will come when we shall come across the smallest particles beyond which further division will not be possible. He named these particles Parmanu. Another Indian philosopher, Pakudha Katyayama, elaborated this doctrine and said that these particles normally exist in a combined form which gives us various forms of matter. Atomism is explored in Plato 's dialogue Timaeus. Aristotle proves that both length and time are infinitely divisible, refuting atomism. Andrew Pyle gives a lucid account of infinite divisibility in the first few pages of his Atomism and its Critics. There he shows how infinite divisibility involves the idea that there is some extended item, such as an apple, which can be divided infinitely many times, where one never divides down to point, or to atoms of any sort. Many philosophers claim that infinite divisibility involves either a collection of an infinite number of items (since there are infinite divisions, there must be an infinite collection of objects), or (more rarely), point-sized items, or both. Pyle states that the mathematics of infinitely divisible extensions involve neither of these — that there are infinite divisions, but only finite collections of objects and they never are divided down to point extension-less items.