At 7:42 AM -0600 3/24/98, Randall M. Tidmore wrote: Times_New_RomanFirst I appreciate all the comments on the questions I have posed in the past. I am only a second semester Greek student, so I lack a lot, in a lot of areas. Times_New_RomanMy question has to do with the difference in koine and classic Greek. If koine means "vulgar" or "street talk," how do the "classic" writings help to understand it. Is the general usage in the classics beneficial in understanding the usage in the street? Are only parts of the classics beneficial, i.e., that which is written as dialogue? Times_New_Roman This question is posed simply, but the answer is not really a simple one. The Greek adjective KOINOS can mean "common," and can mean "vulgar"--but these are two senses that overlap without being anything like identical. What is usually meant when it KOINH Greek is referred to is the somewhat simplified form of the Greek language used first in the fifth-century Athenian Aegean empire (conventionally called the "Delian League") but then especially after Alexander's conquests all over the eastern Mediterranean as Greek became a "common" in the sense of "universally usable" language of commerce and administration in all those areas that were subject to rule by Greek-speaking dynasties founded by Alexander's generals and engaged in commerce promoted by new colonies of Greek-speaking peoples throughout the eastern Mediterranean. As for "benefit," there's benefit to be derived from the reading of any serious literature in any language, whether classical or later--by which I mean nothing more than that Homer, Sophocles, Plato and the New Testament are all very much worth reading, and that there are comparable works worth reading in other languages also. Times_New_RomanAs one who studied Spanish as a second language for missionary work in Honduras, I know that the language spoken in the street was quite different than "text book" Spanish. The same is really true of English, too. Those who speak the street language understand it perfectly. Outsiders would have an extremely difficult time understanding all the idioms, and a grammar book and dictionary would be of very little benefit. In fact, the grammar in English street talk is horrible. Times_New_RomanDoes "koine" refer to that type of usage? If so, I would think that the rules of grammar could not be too rigidly applied to "koine." Is this part of the difficulty in understanding and/or translating the "difficult texts"? Is this the reason some clauses or phrases do not seem to match the word that it appears they should modify? Times_New_Roman This again is more complex than the question seems to assume. When you say, "the grammar in English street talk is horrible," that's too simplistic a statement. It depends on who is speaking on the street, who is being spoken to, and what the subject of the talk is. There's considerable variation and gradation even in very colloquial English. It is true that the grammar of Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Plato is considerably more complex than that of most of the New Testament, but even within the New Testament there's a considerably wide range: the gospel of John and the book of Revelation are written in very simple Greek, while the letter to the Hebrews is much more difficult and complex, and the gospel of Luke is in a relatively sophisticated style that is certainly not "street language." But the sorts of questions you're raising cannot be answered in terms of black-and-white distinctions. Carl W. Conrad Department of Classics/Washington University One Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018 Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649 OR WWW: