Religion in Schools

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Wednesday 10 May 2006 8:30AM (view full episode)

Is religion being marginalized in Queensland schools? The state government has introduced legislation to make religious instruction in public schools something parents have to opt into rather than opt out of. And the Humanists, and other non-religious groups, will be given access.


QLD National MP Fiona Simpson on religion in QLD Schools
QLD Education Minister Rod Welford on religion in Schools
Humanist President Zelda Bayley on religion in QLD Schools
Anglican Religious Education and Chaplaincy Officer for State schools Jonathan Sargeant on religion in QLD Schools

Stephen Crittenden: Welcome everyone, to The Religion Report.

In 1910 the people of Queensland passed a referendum guaranteeing time for religious instruction in Queensland schools. It's in fact, one of only two referendums ever to pass in Queensland, the other was the one that brought Queensland into the Federation.

Well this week we're looking at religious education in Queensland where new legislation has been introduced into parliament. Some say it will downgrade access to traditional Christian religious education, while opening the doors to teachers of humanism, wicca and even witchcraft.

The biggest change will be that religious education in Queensland public schools will now be something that parents and children have to opt into, rather than opt out of. Parents will nominate their choice of R.E. program when their children are enrolling. Although some of those diabolical predictions are almost certainly exaggerated, it's true that with the approval of parents and the Director-General of Education in Queensland, some non-religious groups will also be given access to come into schools during the 40 hours a year that are set aside for religion.

Fiona Simpson is the National Party member for Maroochydore, and it was her press release about witches and satanists that inflamed the debate in recent weeks.

Fiona Simpson: Well the changes to the R.E. or Religious Education program in Queensland are far broader than just that particular aspect. But it seems to have stirred up the most interest in the media. First of all, the big change initially to the system is actually the consent and access program, that's downgrading traditional religious education, making it an optional extra, and I guess the danger is that that will mean that it becomes seen as not important by schools.

Stephen Crittenden: How is it not an optional extra now? I mean parents can opt out after all if they want to.

Fiona Simpson : Well that's right, parents have the option now, and the reality is, most kids do the religious education unless their parents opt them out. The difference is, when you make a program, you change the onus of consent where you have to choose to opt in. You don't make that choice now with English, or Maths, or other activities. What happens is that in a busy school program, unless the schools support it, you may find that it actually starts to drop off the agenda.

Stephen Crittenden: But to be fair, this was never a subject like Maths or English. This hour a week or whatever it is, exists so that the churches can reach kids from their own denomination in public schools, doesn't it?

Fiona Simpson : Actually to the contrary. Certainly in Queensland for a long time we've actually had co-operative arrangements between churches where you actually have people on a very ecumenical basis go in and teach the same curriculum. So you may have Anglicans teaching Baptist kids or Uniting church people teaching Anglican kids. So it is not about proselytizing to a particular church or denomination. It's been a recognition, right back to 1910 when there was a referendum in Queensland, one of only two referendums passed in our State, that said we respect that it's very important to teach the foundations of faith. In that case, it was predominantly Christian faith, but there is access for other mainstream religions. What the State government in Queensland is proposing though is far broader than that, and it does change firstly the consent process and access, but secondly it extends it to other belief systems, such a humanism and potential they've said, under the law they will not be able to stop other groups such as satanism, nor witches, and that's seen I suppose to stir people up, but there is no legal mechanism to stop that.

Stephen Crittenden: Right, and what's wrong with that? I mean why would we want to stop witchcraft being taught in Queensland schools if that's what the parents of those kids wanted?

Fiona Simpson : Well it's not one of the mainstream religions and you start to find yourself extending extensively into other areas that aren't about, if you like, the mainstream religious beliefs. And there is a danger in bringing something like witchcraft into schools and I appreciate that the Pagan Awareness Network has been jumping up and down about this, saying they should have access and that their members are growing. I think this is the point where the new legislation that the State government's put forward in fact cannot draw a line and stop other groups such as wiccans or humanists, in fact they expressly write into the explanatory notes to this legislation that humanism can be taught. So you see, there is another agenda: this isn't about just comparative religion, that's available now.

Stephen Crittenden: What could be more mainstream than humanism?

Fiona Simpson : Well no-one has a problem with comparative religion being taught, but the religious education traditionally is actually a separate issue and that's been something that's actually been enshrined through referendum. So I can see that, I know that there are humanists who say they don't believe any religion should be taught in State schools, but there are also a lot of parents who aren't necessarily churchgoers or have strong religious beliefs, who say 'Look, we think it's still important for our children to be taught a foundation. It doesn't turn those children into believers in that religion, but it does give them a foundation of understanding, and that's particularly important.

Stephen Crittenden: But again, what about non-Christians?

Fiona Simpson : Well they have the option now to opt out of those classes.

Stephen Crittenden: And what about non-Christians who are also humanists, or secularists?

Fiona Simpson : They already have the opportunity to opt out of those particular classes.

Stephen Crittenden: And why not give them the opportunity to opt into a class of secularist humanist values?

Fiona Simpson : Well I find it very interesting that the humanist society has been pushing these changes, whose President was on the Religious Advisory Task Force in Queensland. They already have a curriculum ready to go and they're talking about issues, socio-political issues, about separation of church and state, in the context of issues which are normally discussed at university level and have a great range of debate. And that to me actually cuts over almost into the study of government and politics. So you have to say "what is the agenda?", when they have pushed so strongly, and in fact they've had the ear of government. Why is there a need to change when people have those choices now? Why the push for the changes? Because there is another agenda and this is just the first step in that agenda.

Stephen Crittenden: That's the member for the seat of Maroochydore in Queensland, Fiona Simpson.

Well let's hear from the Queensland Minister for Education, Rod Welford.

Rod Welford: In the past, the legislation that we previously had was restricted solely to the provision of Bible lesson type religious education in classrooms. And of course in the new world of multiculturalism, anti-discrimination laws and a different approach to spiritual education for children, we appreciate that there needs to be a broader approach, and the new legislation will update the law to reflect that.

Stephen Crittenden: And how does it do that?

Rod Welford: The new legislation sets up a system for authorising educators to go into schools to provide religious education. In the past, the law was really Rafferty's Rules and left up to schools themselves to identify people or allow people into schools.

Stephen Crittenden: I'd say specifically, how will that mechanism be different?

Rod Welford: The mechanism will now ensure that approval has to be given by the Director-General of the Department of Education at state level, for a person to go into state schools to provide religious education.

Stephen Crittenden: Right, so in one sense, it's a more centralised system with the Education Department taking responsibility for quality issues, is that right?

Rod Welford: That's right. The quality control will now be exercised more centrally, and of course both religious bodies and other bodies will be able to provide spiritual education in various forms.

Stephen Crittenden: Such as the Humanist Society, for example?

Rod Welford: Well the humanists would have to put forward a proposal including a curriculum of topics to be covered. What we really want is education that will impart respectable values to students, and give them an understanding of the background to how those values are important to Australian society.

Stephen Crittenden: On that point, there are no doubt many people who will see this legislation as an attack on the churches, that it will have the effect of marginalising them more than they already are. Surely everyone knows what the impact of changing an opt out arrangements to an opt in provision, is going to be?

Rod Welford: Well there's been a bit of debate about whether parents opt in or opt out is actually a bit of a misnomer, really. What will happen is pretty much what happens now. When a student enrolls at the school, the parents will be able to tick a box on the form indicating whether they would like their child to receive religious education at the school. If they want it, they'll get it, if they don't they'll have other options.

Stephen Crittenden: And what will those options be?

Rod Welford: Well currently those options could be anything from art classes through to additional reading and study time, through to sport. It could also include other values education classes which the school might organise, either from its own staff or from an outside source.

Stephen Crittenden: This kind of raises the question: if what you're after is values education and what a lot of parents are calling for is values education, and more of it, why would you make it an opt in situation?

Rod Welford: Well it's an opt in situation for those who want specifically to receive religious education as distinct from non-religious values education. But that's just a choice that parents will be free to make and give it legislative force. At the moment, it's an entirely discretionary factor for the school to administer.

Stephen Crittenden: Now there have been some suggestions from the Liberal party and the National party that the satanists could end up teaching in schools or wiccans or whatever, or indeed some kind of religious cult that might be considered dangerous. What actually is there to stop that happening?

Rod Welford: The reality is, the new arrangements will put in place stronger measures to control the quality of religious education in State schools than we had before. What this new law will now require is a system for approval. That will of course enable us to weed out any extremists. I don't think it'll be necessarily based on any particular denomination or any particular label or name. It'll be based on the curriculum that they present. In other words, the Director-General will want to see what are the values and what is the content of the teaching curriculum that the educator will use when they go in to provide these classes. What's important to us is that they must not preach anything which would counsel or incite disrespect or breaches of State or Federal law, so these decisions will be made by the Director-General of Queensland's Education Department. After consultation with the school principal.

Stephen Crittenden: And so there is a local input as well?

Rod Welford: There will be local input, as there must be, but ultimately we're maintaining a consistent approach to decision-making by ensuring the Director-General makes the decision.


Rod Welford: My pleasure.

Stephen Crittenden: The Minister for Education in Queensland, Rod Welford.

Well as we've heard, one of the big beneficiaries of the new legislation is likely to be the Humanist Society, whose Queensland President is Zelda Bayley.

Zelda was the Queensland Teachers' Union representative on the Religious Advisory Task Force set up by the Beattie government.

The Humanists have been campaigning against religious education for years, and yet here they are getting the law changed to get access to the very R.E. classes they want to abolish. Confused? Here's Zelda Bayley.

Zelda Bayley: Hello Stephen, thank you for letting me put our point of view. It isn't as confusing as it might sound, because we have been lobbying for years to achieve repeal of those special clauses in the Education Act that allows religious instruction to happen at all in schools. We consider it and have for many, many years, as totally inappropriate. But what we are faced with at the moment is an inability to make any breakthrough along those lines, and what we have in schools is humanist parents with humanist children who have nothing that is suitable for them, nothing that is appropriate for them, and so what we have taken is a fallback position.

Stephen Crittenden: OK. Well before we go any further, please explain your philosophical objection to religious instruction, this sort of community-based religious instruction or scripture classes in public schools.

Zelda Bayley: Well of course we find it totally unacceptable on a number of fronts. The fact that it is just religious, in other words it doesn't deal with the multitude of systems of belief that the children have in the State school system and their parents have, so therefore it only addresses one section of all those values and beliefs that are represented there, and also the word 'instruction' itself is problematic in a number of ways. Modern education is educational, and educational means that you involve students in a pursuit of understanding and knowledge through questioning, through critical evaluation, through debate, discussion, analysing the evidence for various things. And so instruction just doesn't fit in. The fact that it's biased doesn't fit in, and the actual approach doesn't fit in.

Stephen Crittenden: In other words, it's an approach that's actually I guess, at odds with the prevailing philosophy of education in general?

Zelda Bayley: Yes, I would agree with that totally. But unfortunately we're stuck with it, and that's why we've decided to offer this program.

Stephen Crittenden: Indeed, not only are you stuck with it, you're coming to the party, or you hope you're coming to the party.

Zelda Bayley: Well we're not coming to that party. What we hope to do is change the thing so that the party that we will be joining will actually be a progressive party that we can feel part of.

Stephen Crittenden: And what sort of program are you in fact envisaging?

Zelda Bayley: Well we hope to offer, and of course I say 'hope' because the Education Bill, as it is now, has not become an Education Act, so nothing can happen until the Act becomes enforced, but hopefully that will happen, and what we hope to offer is a study of humanism program, an educational program produced by the Humanist Society which is a group of people who are non-religious, and therefore this program is I suppose you would call it a non-religious or secular alternative for programs of religious instruction.

Stephen Crittenden: Now give us some background about how these changes came about, because I understand this Bill was only made possible by changes to the Anti-Discrimination Act in Queensland in 2002 outlawing discrimination against people for their non-religious beliefs.

Zelda Bayley: Well quite a long time ago, we started lobbying for amendments to the Anti-Discrimination Act, and it's quite interesting that in 2001 when I actually approached the then Attorney-General who is now the Minister of Education, Rod Welford, and he was Attorney-General then, I raised these issues within the Anti-Discrimination Act that only protected religion. And at that time, the Humanist Society was trying to raise its profile publicly and to show people that we were working very hard doing lots of things that were not actually being recognised, and some of which is connected with the study of humanism program in schools, were actually being prevented by law, because the laws protected the religious groups, but not us. And so I raised issues with the then Attorney-General, and eventually there were amendments made to the Anti-Discrimination Act, and now it is my understanding that the protection has expanded to include non-religion. So the protections are that you may not discriminate on the basis of religion or non-religion, religious belief, or non-religious belief.

Stephen Crittenden: Now what I want to know is, were those changes in 2002 that you were clearly involved in, part of the larger project of getting this current piece of legislation up?

Zelda Bayley: Partly. We want all the legislation in Queensland to reflect a non-discriminatory viewpoint. And so where we come up against legislation which blocks us, then those are the pieces of legislation that we will try to bring changes about, so that we are then included.

Stephen Crittenden: One of the things that this new legislation is going to introduce is that religious instruction will be opt in, as opposed to the current situation opt out. Now let me put it to you that that must have an impact, and I would have thought a negative impact. And I would have thought if mainstream secular values is what you're on about, you ought to be opposed to making it an opt in situation.

Zelda Bayley: Well don't forget that this program is not delivered by people who are part of the staff of the school, who are not professional educators, they're not employees of Education Queensland.

Stephen Crittenden: Often they come from the local parish, don't they?

Zelda Bayley: Well we won't say perhaps what people might have in mind when they oppose it, and they withdraw their children from it. Let's not go down that track. But what I'm saying is that it is different. The parents must be made aware of the fact of the possible poor quality of programs and the possible unprofessionalism of people who conduct them. There's a history in Queensland of such a poor quality of religious instruction that a special committee had to be formed, or it was decided that a special committee would be formed in 1975 to address the very, very serious criticisms and a great deal of unhappiness from parents whose children were leaving these programs, and who were extremely unhappy with the things that the children said were going on in the classes. And this special committee that was set up in 1975 is still going now, and it is trying to do its best to make sure that all programs conducted within State schools are of a high quality. But it is very difficult when you're dealing with people who are not part of the staff, and who are just members of the local community.

Stephen Crittenden: A lot of people will see this legislation as an attack on the churches, something that can only further marginalise the Christian churches.

Zelda Bayley: Well of course it's not an attack on anybody because the provision that is in place right now will still remain in place under the proposed changes. All that will happen will be that there'll be an expansion, hopefully, for us, so that we can then offer something extra that hasn't been offered before. But it's not going to as far as I can see, restrict anything that is going on from the religious groups at present.

Stephen Crittenden: And how big is the program that the humanists envisage offering in a geographical sense? Is it just going to be operated here and there where parents ask for it and where people coincidentally happen to be available, or are you actually looking at something much more organised than State wide?

Zelda Bayley: Well because we haven't offered it before and because it is specially tailored for this particular service as a stand-alone program, that has been specially written for this particular niche, one might say, we want to begin very slowly. We would like to begin in the Brisbane area, the south-east corner of Queensland, where we can watch it develop, make sure it develops well, make sure that the quality is the highest quality that we can possibly reach, and make sure it's well resourced and that the kind of people who are delivering it are the kind of people who are humanists in the fullest sense of the word and that we can rely on to deliver a study of humanism in an authentic manner. This is something that we've never done before, absolutely new, I don't know of it being done anywhere else in the world, never mind about Australia, and so we're going to begin very slowly and make sure that what we do is the best that we possibly can.

Stephen Crittenden: Do you expect to be confronted by a fair bit of hostility in some cases from other religious instruction teachers representing other religions?

Zelda Bayley: Oh I would hope not. I would view that as them letting down their own side. It depends of course on what they're teaching, but if they're teaching love and brotherhood and all these other good things which I do understand parents are looking to religion to hear about, and if they're not living what they're saying, in other words, if they're not walking the talk, then they've got serious problems and they don't deserve to have parents opt in to their programs. But I wouldn't think that there'd be much of that going on. I hope that they're mostly going to be very reasonable about the situation, and understand that this is a social justice issue, that we have been locked out, and that this is injustice from our point of view, and therefore to be let in on an equal footing through the religions in a multicultural pluralist society is what one should expect from democracy.

Stephen Crittenden: Zelda, a very stimulating conversation, thank you very much for being on the program.

Zelda Bayley: It's my pleasure, thank you for giving me the opportunity.

Stephen Crittenden: The President of the Humanist Society in Queensland, Zelda Bayley.

Well finally the Christian churches, and what is their response. Well it ranges from the mildly sanguine to the mildly alarmed. Jonathan Sargeant is the Religious Education and Chaplaincy Officer for State schools on behalf of the Anglican church, and he joins us in the ABC's Brisbane studios.

Jonathan Sargeant: As a representative of the Anglican church, I can just speak for our church, but I feel like we've had a chance to have a say throughout the consultation period of the legislation review. We've been putting in submissions all the way along, so this has led us to feel like we are to some extent being heard in that process. I mean having said that there's still detail that we don't know. There is still detail that was in the previous legislation that we have no word of yet in the new legislation.

Stephen Crittenden: What would you like to know about that you don't know?

Jonathan Sargeant: There are things like how local volunteers will be accredited, there are things like how will Education Queensland make decisions about which groups are worth admitting and which aren't. Previously the government has taken no part in choosing groups on the basis of the content of their programs, and yet we have some sense this time that groups do have to submit their R.E. programs, and therefore the government might make some decision on the basis of those.

Stephen Crittenden: Is it also the case that under this new legislation, religious groups will be able to get access to schools even when there are no kids in the school who belong to their particular religious group?

Jonathan Sargeant: That's right, that's a major concern for us.

Stephen Crittenden: Is that a change?

Jonathan Sargeant: That is a change. In the present situation for a group to be admitted to a school they need to have adherents in that school and they're really only permitted to teach those adherents, unless groups come together in a co-operative agreement. So for instance, some Christian denominations might decide to teach students together. You might have Anglican, Catholic, Uniting, and so on, choosing to team up to teach those kids. In this new situation, there needn't be any adherents in a school at all. In the new situation, just one parent needs to put up their hand an say they'd like a particular program and they don't need to be an adherent of that program, but they just need to put up their hand to say they'd like that program, and that program can then be admitted, not just to teach the children of that one parent, but to teach potentially every student in the school. They can at least offer their program to every student in the school.

Stephen Crittenden: Could the State government find itself accidentally sponsoring - I guess proselytizing by default? Is that more likely, given this proposed legislation?

Jonathan Sargeant: Certainly it can be interpreted in that way. You might find for instance a group coming into a school and offering their program to the entire school. They might have no adherents there, and yet suddenly they may end up with a large group of people who think that this is a particular group that might seem to represent a number of different faith groups or seems very general in their approach, and therefore they might scoop the pool, so to speak, with the students in that school. It's up to the parents in the end, but I'm concerned sometimes that parents may not necessarily have the chance to think through the issues involved as to what program they actually choose for their children.

Stephen Crittenden: The Ba'hais come to mind here. I can see the possibility that lots of parents who are lapsed churchgoers or disconnected with the mainstream Christian churches, might be attracted by their claims to represent all religions, and I think the Ba'hais say themselves that they have 6,000 kids around Australia coming to their classes, 90% of whom are not adherents to the Ba'hai religion.

Jonathan Sargeant: I've had anecdotal experience of the Ba'hai trying to offer their programs in schools under the current legislation and that can cause a few problems sometimes, just because they need to have the adherents there before they can be admitted into a school.

Stephen Crittenden: So that problems' been taken away for them.

Jonathan Sargeant: Yes, it seems to be, yes.

Stephen Crittenden: Do the Christian churches have any problem with the idea of humanism being taught in this period of the school week?

Jonathan Sargeant: I guess we're now living in a different kind of world than we were when the referendum was first held to introduce religious education into Queensland schools; that was back in 1911 I think. We're living in a multicultural world, we're living in a world where people have a range of different faiths and belief systems. So I guess it would be difficult for the Christian churches to oppose a more inclusive offering of religious education and belief systems education as well.

Stephen Crittenden: What about the issue of how poorly or how well the churches have handled this opportunity of providing religious instruction in schools? I think there does seem to be a view that the churches haven't really always been up to it. Disorganised, amateurish, sometimes even perhaps counter-productive.

Jonathan Sargeant: Yes. I like to take encouragement in the Queensland context in that we're relatively organised here, there's a great ecumenical team of trainers for RE. teacher volunteers. I'm involved in that as a representative from the Anglican church and we have people from the Catholic church and the Uniting church; the Scripture Union is involved in that group, the Churches of Christ, and so on. And so we do a lot of training with R.E. volunteers. Having said that, it's easy to look at the percentages of people offering to be volunteers from various churches, and have a different answer to that question. It seems to me unfortunately that the numbers from some of the supposedly larger churches, like the Catholic, Anglican and Uniting churches, the numbers of people offering as volunteers from those churches probably is dropping, and yet there are smaller, more zealous churches, who are really taking up that opportunity in larger numbers.


Jonathan Sargeant: It's a pleasure.

Stephen Crittenden: Jonathan Sargeant from the Anglican church in Queensland, bringing our program to an end.

Before we go, just time to make note to sad news that one of the most famous churches in Australia burnt down overnight, St Barnabas' Broadway, which was for decades a powerhouse of evangelical Anglicanism in Sydney and the home of the powerful Sydney University Evangelical Union, was gutted by fire last night. In the 1920s and '30s it was the home of that famous sectarian firebrand, R.B.S. Hammond, as he fought the evils of strong drink. Sad news.


Fiona Simpson
QLD Parliamentary Member for Maroochydore (National Party)
Rod Welford
QLD Education Minister (Labor)
Zelda Bayley
President of the QLD Humanist society, and Queensland Teachers' Union representative on the Religious Advisory Task Force set up by the Beattie government
Jonathan Sargeant
Religious Education and Chaplaincy Officer for State schools, Anglican diocese of Brisbane


Stephen Crittenden
Noel Debien / Simon Levett / Jenny Parsonage