Sunday, November 15, 2009

Vaccination: A Conversation Worth Having

While America is still in the grips of swine flu mania, let me use this opportunity to clear up a few things about my beliefs concerning the flu shot, vaccines, and health in general. I do this because there is obviously a lot of curiosity about this subject of vaccines -- it comes up in every interview I do these days, and I've been finding that people, including doctors, are privately expressing a skepticism that is still not very prevalent in public. I feel like I've become a confessor for people who want someone to be raising questions about vaccines.

But I don't want the job. I agree with my critics who say there are far more qualified people than me -- its just that mainstream media rarely interviews doctors and scientists who present an alternative point of view. There is a movement to stop people from asking any questions about vaccines -- they're a miracle, that's it, debate over. I don't think its that simple, and neither do millions of other people. The British Medical Journal from August 25 says half the doctors and medical workers in the U.K. are not taking the flu shot -- are they all crazy too? Sixty-five percent of French people don't want it. Maybe its not as simple as the medical establishment wants to paint it.

Vaccination is a nuanced subject, and I've never said all vaccines in all situations are bad. The point I am representing is: Is getting frequent vaccinations for any and all viruses consequence-free? I feel its unnecessary and counterproductive to try and silence people with condescension. Michael Shermer wrote me an open letter and felt I needed to be told that "vaccinations work by tricking the body's immune system into thinking that it has already had the disease for which the vaccination was given." Thanks, Doc, I thought there might be a little man inside the needle. Yes, I read Microbe Hunters when I was eight, I have a basic idea how vaccines work.

That's not -- or shouldn't be -- where the debate is. I admit, its hard to get as clear a picture of my beliefs, as you could, say, if I had written a book on vaccines, versus someone in the setting of a talk show. So I understand why its easy to take bits of things I have said and extrapolate into something I actually have never said. I understand it, but its not exactly "scientific."

But rather than responding to every absurd thing said, let me just tell you want I do think -- because I will admit, I have gone off half cocked on this issue sometimes, and often only had time on my show to explain a fraction of what needed to be explained, and for that I am sorry. Some of it can't be helped, some of that is the nature of the show we do: live, off the cuff, lots of interruptions. Some of it was just from me being overexcited about finally finding a health regimen that actually made me healthier and feel better. And many a time I have wanted to stop the show and clarify a point or provide the nuance I think it deserves, but I am serving many masters, and you have to get out of the way as much as you can so the guests can say their piece.

But some of it I would do differently. For example, I recently joined Twitter Nation -- what can I say, Demi Moore is a very convincing salesperson -- and what everybody told me about Twitter was that it was supposed to be whatever stray thought or thing just happened to you -- you know, for people who find blogging too formal and stuffy.

But apparently it's taken very seriously, because there was Scott Pelley on 60 Minutes asking the Secretary of Health and Human Services what she thought about the fact that "Bill Maher told his viewers anyone who gets a flu shot is an idiot."

Well, not quite. It was twittered, which I guess doesn't make a huge difference, but as 60 Minutes is the last bastion of TV journalism, accuracy is appreciated. And I see that counts for Twitter, too -- my bad -- so yes, some people are not idiotic to get a flu shot. They're idiotic if they don't investigate the pros and cons of getting a flu shot. But, come on -- it was a twitter from a comedian, not a treatise in the New England Journal of Medicine, that's not what I do.

I'm just trying to represent an under-reported medical point of view in this country, I'm not telling a specific pregnant lady what to do. With unlimited air time, I would have, for example, added to my discussion with Dr. Bill Frist on October 2 that, yes, any flu or health challenge can be dangerous when you're pregnant, and if your immune system is already compromised by, for example, eating a typical American diet, then a flu shot can make sense. But someone needs to be representing the point of view that says the preferred way to handle flus is to have a strong immune system to begin with, and getting lots of vaccines might not be the best way to accomplish that over the long haul.

Now, sometimes its OK to fuck with nature -- I believe "intelligent design" is often anything but intelligent; that "God's perfect universe" is actually full of fuck ups and design flaws, like cleft lips and Down Syndrome -- so correcting nature is sometimes the right thing to do. And then, sometimes its not. For me, the flu shot is in the "not" category.

In addition, my audience is bright, they wouldn't refuse a flu shot because they heard me talk about it, but if they looked into the subject a little more, how is that a bad thing? If they went to the CDC Web site and saw what's in the vaccine -- the formaldehyde, the insect repellent, the mercury -- shouldn't they at least get to have the information for themselves?

But just to reassure all those people who have such a romantic attachment to vaccines: I know, there are vaccines that have had their battles with the bad guys and won -- great! And if you have a compromised immune system and can't boost it naturally, as in poor countries where the children are eating dirt, then a vaccine can be a white knight -- bravo! Does the polio vaccine have the power to prevent children from getting polio, and did it indeed do just that in the 1950s? I believe it does, and it did. But polio had diminished by over 50 percent in the thirty years before the vaccine -- that's a pretty big fact in the polio story that you don't often hear and which merits debate. It may be the case that the vaccine should have been used anyway to finish polio off, but there are some interesting facts on the other side.

So yes, I get it, we learned how to trick our immune systems. And maybe sometimes, you gotta do it. But maybe the immune system doesn't like being tricked so many times. Maybe we should be studying that instead of shouting down debate.

Someone who speaks eloquently about this is Barbara Loe Fisher, founder of the National Vaccine Information Center. I find her extremely credible, as I do Dr. Russell Blaylock, Dr. Jay Gordon and many others, but I shouldn't have even mentioned them because I don't want to be "the Vaccine Guy"!! Look it up yourself, and stop asking me about it -- I'm already the Religion Guy, and that's enough work!

Anyway, Ms. Fisher is someone who says she is not "anti-vaccine," but just has a lot of questions about the long term effect of using a lot of vaccines. After devoting her life to studying this, she says that the influenza vaccine studies that have been done "are not persuasive in proving that a seasonal flu shot provides immunity." She also points out "that what we need, but do not yet have, are studies of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children."

Is it worth it to get vaccines for every bug that goes around? Injecting something into my bloodstream? I'd like to reserve that for emergencies. This is the flu, and there's always a flu. I've said it before, America is a panicky country. It's like we look for things to panic about.The reports from Australia, where they're over their flu season, is that its not a terribly virulent flu. The worldwide numbers support that. But you'd never get that impression from the media in this country.

60 Minutes has done two pieces on swine flu within a month. The first one introduced us to a high school football player named Luke Duvall who, we were told, was the picture of health, and then got hit by the flu so bad he was in the hospital at death's door. But later in the segment we learn that Luke had staphylococcus pneumonia along with the flu. Was that staph bug in him when he got hit by the flu? Its not clear from the reporting, but since every other kid on both football teams got the flu, as well as the cheerleaders ... ahem ... and all of them got over it just fine, then it seems quite possible that Luke had a co-existing infection, and that's why his experience with H1N1 was so different.

On the follow up visit a couple of weeks later on 60 Minutes, we were told Luke had "beaten H1N1." No, he beat H1N1 and staph together: that's very different! If 99 percent of people have relatively mild symptoms, shouldn't science's first job be finding out why the one percent get felled? Having an underlying health issue is the point I was raising with Dr. Frist: maybe Luke wasn't the picture of perfect health they described in the opening.

By the way, when Scott Pelley asked the government spokesman about the fact that only one percent of people who get the flu find it to be anything other than a typical, mild flu, the answer was an analogy to seatbelts, that "only 1 percent of people riding in a car will be in an accident, but you don't want to take a chance on being that 1 percent."

That went unchallenged, which is sad, because what a horrible analogy! I would think vaccines containing many different dicey substances shot directly into the bloodstream have a slightly greater chance of secondary effects than a piece of fabric lying across your waist. Maybe if you had to swallow the seatbelt this would be a good analogy.

If one side can say anything and its not challenged, then of course dissent becomes heresy in the minds of many. I don't trust the mainstream media to be thorough or exacting enough to inform me as much as I need on this subject. Sorry, they're just not up to it. At the very least, they should have pointed out, as we watched Luke fighting for life on a ventilator, that, of course, flu vaccines don't have any therapeutic effect on bacterial infection.

While we're on the subject of bacteria, let me say clearly I understand germ theory also -- I believe they also covered that in Microbe Hunters -- nor have I ever said I was a "germ theory denier." What I've been saying is that Western medicine ignores too much the fact that the terrain in which bacteria can thrive is crucial and often controllable, which shouldn't even be controversial. I don't care what Louis Pasteur said on his death bed -- it was probably, "Either the curtains go or I do" -- that's not the point!

And it's precisely because I am a Darwinist that I fear the overuse of antibiotics, since that is what has allowed nasty killer bugs like MRE to adapt so effectively that they are often resistant to any antibiotic we can throw at it. There are consequences to vaccines and antibiotics. Some people want to study that, and some, it seems, want to call off the debate.

Instead of setting up this straw man of me not understanding germs or viruses, let's have a real debate about how much we should use vaccines and antibiotics. Of course it's good that we have them in our arsenal, but isn't the real skeptic the one who asks if these powerful but toxic methods do harm to what actually is a a very good defensive system, the one you were born with?

Also, I have never said there was a medical conspiracy. In fact, when Howard Dean asked me that, my response was "I wouldn't call it a conspiracy." Any more than there's a conspiracy for the Pentagon budget to be obscenely bloated and operated largely for the corporate welfare of defense contractors. If these are conspiracies, they're mostly legal ones that happen in plain sight. (Good time here to plug the hostess' book, Pigs At the Trough, it's all in there!) I have, in fact, used the phrase "medical-pharmaceutical-food industry" complex in comparing it to Eisenhower's famous depiction of a "military-industrial complex."

But no, I don't think the A.M.A. and Big Pharma and Aetna and Dr. Frist's hospital chain all meet in a board room and cackle about keeping us sick. They meet on the golf course. (Just kidding.)

Do pharmaceutical companies want to cure diabetes or do they want to sell diabetes drugs and equipment? Well, they sure do sell a lot these days, and the food companies are what make that possible. Read David Kessler's book about the deliberate way food companies use salt, fat and sugar as foodcrack to get people literally addicted to eating bad food and too much of it. Is that a conspiracy? Only if you define corporations putting profit ahead of human health as conspiracy. The fact that Americans will do anything to each other for money is not a conspiracy, it's a scandal.

I believe in science and I believe in studies to determine the truth. I also believe Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon was correct when he said recently on MSNBC: "If you've got a checkbook in this town, you can get just about any set of facts you want." So if I remind you of a conspiracy theorist, you sometimes remind me of Britney Spears when she said "we should just do whatever the president says to do, and not ask questions and just support him." The medical community can be brutal on dissent, which would hold more weight if I thought this was a terribly healthy country, which it isn't. Health care is one sixth of our economy, and we spend way more on it than any other nation. The elephant in the room of the health care debate is that we are going to have a high health care bill every year no matter what law they pass because we're sick -- we need a lot of drugs and services.

Am I a conspiracy theorist if I suggest that since the network's nightly news broadcasts are sponsored almost entirely by prescription drug ads, that you might have to hold your breath a long time before you hear the alternative point of view to using pharmaceuticals to cure all our ailments?

Is it conspiracy theory to believe that American medicine too much treats symptoms and not root causes of disease? I always ask my friends when they go to the doctor for something, "Did your doctor ask you what you eat?" The answer is almost always 'no,' and a lot can be cured with diet and a healthier lifestyle. (And a lot can't. I also understand the role of genetics and generations of artificial selection). But Americans don't want to hear that, so doctors don't push it. It's easier and more profitable to write a prescription for Lipitor. They're not bad people, and at the end of the day, you can't make someone eat right. I like and respect all the M.D.s I've had over the years, and for the record, I have a naturopath doctor and I have a Western doctor. I would make an analogy to Republicans and Democrats: in both politics and health, I don't commit to either party because I'm on the side of the truth, whoever has it. In both cases, I'm an Independent.

Ms. Fisher said "If we want to create a society that is dependent on shots for immunity -- the same way we are getting dependent on prescription drugs, antibiotics, and surgery -- this is the path we should keep going down."

I don't think its "anti-science" to pause and consider that point of view.


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ZenGrouch said...

I wonder if the lack of remarks here is a positive comment, regarding the quality of those who read Mr. Maher's posts?

The thing has been here forever, and it seems like I'm the first to comment on it.

Well, I'm not commenting on the content of the post, because I didn't bother to read the entire thing before much needed parts of my brain went to sleep.

Not because the post itself was boring, but I find the subject matter boring. As in, I don't have a dog in the fight and could care less if the media hypes the subject, and if people are desperate enough to line up for hours to get a shot that isn't coming, while they expose themselves to all kinds of other airborne goodies that will make them and their kids sick.

This shit is like Christianity to me. Thanks, but no thanks... However, knock yourself out it that's your cup o' tea.

I'm thinking many of the regular posters may feel the same way, like, so fucking what? I've got other more important shit to worry about, like did Tiger Woods wife chase him with a golf club after whipping the piss out of him with it? You know, important shit.

I don't understand Mr. Maher's concern for something that isn't breaking the bank, and is only scaring those who allow themselves to be scared. Fuck 'em, they probably all vote Republican anyway, and without Bush in office they really need this bit of drama to take their minds off of their fucked up lives.

So, until the black boots in the Gobment start hunting me down and force me to take a shot, or they start spraying the shit from airplanes, like Melothyon, or put it in our drinking water like LSD, let me sleep, in blissful ignorance and apathy.

Zen Grouch

BenJammin said...

I'll be really brief because I'm on my way to class, but some quick thoughts.

You lose a lot of credibility on criticizing anything you didn't read entirely.

How can you knock Christianity and then support blissful ignorance..?

Just struck me as odd, your opinion is yours to have, it just didn't seem to be supported much beyond "I don't want to think about it or deal with it until it affects me enough." Which is fine for some people, I just don't see what's wrong with being informed as opposed to ignorant.

Mark said...

I love Bill Maher and I think he is highly intelligent. I think in this case though, he knows just enough about vaccines to be dangerous.

What people in health care fear is a return of the 1918 flu. In that case it was a strong immune system that did in the young and healthy. Your body creates poisons, e.g. interferon, to kill virus infected cells. Sometimes this can go awry and, if your immune system is too strong, your body basically kills itself.

But Everyone needs to weigh the risks and benefits for themselves and make an informed decision. Vaccine manufacturers have made mistakes in the past and probably will in the future.

And remember, nobody is forcing anyone to get vaccinated, as far as I know.

As for diabetes, if a drug company found a cure, you can bet it would be on the market tomorrow because there is money for someone to make

ZenGrouch said...


I didn't criticize the post or subject, as far as I remember. I did say that I found the subject matter boring, and basically not worth putting much more effort into studying.

Now, I'd agree with you if I tried to refute anything, but I don't believe I did. I stated an opinion about how I, and possibly others felt about the subject.

Normally I would have left it alone, but I've never seen a topic in Maher's blog go so fucking long with out a response, thought I'd share my opinion. An opinion that isn't carved in stone, but offering up a possible explanation as to why, nobody has taken a stance pro, or con on the subject.

I'm thinking this is one of those rare subjects that nobody really gives a shit about one way or the other, kind of like abortion or the war in Iraq.

ZenGrouch said...

"I just don't see what's wrong with being informed as opposed to ignorant"...

I don't know about you, but I've got enough shit pissing me off, so that I don't have the time to study the shit that doesn't really bother me that much one way or the other.

That said, you can educate yourself on anything you want, even obscure shit you have absolutely no interest in, just so that you'll be fully covered should anyone call you ignorant on the subject.

Have a blast!

In the mean time, if there are any specifics about what I said, you'd like to argue, I'm all ears.

For example, you said I knocked Christianity, therefore I'm not entitled to blissful ignorance.

What kind of sense does that make, when you think about it.

Besides, I stated that I have no problems with people who want to have Christian beliefs. Granted, I might have some strong opinions on how those people try and force those beliefs on others.

In other words, believe what you want, but get the fuck out of my face with your voodoo, especially if I have no interest in it.

Piss me off. That's cool, but don't present me with something I'm not interested in and expect me to give a flying fuck about it.

Alex Jones said...

Hallo Bill!

Why dont you go on Alex Jones Show and debate me on Swine Flu, you are on the same page on this question like me or have me on your show.

This message is not from the real Alex Jones but it could be.

Contact Alex Jones have a debate. Alex Jones is an Ron Paul supporter.

Alex Jones Tv (HD) 1/9:Swine Flu Special Report

ZenGrouch said...

What would be really funny, is if people around the world start dropping by the millions from the swine flu, and the voices rise... "Why Mr. Maher, why oh why, did you tell us all of those lies"

And Maher will be all, "Hey, I had my vaccination right behind the Pope, and get monthly booster shots. What can I say, the herd needs culling! SUCKERS!"

Anonymous said...

Thank you Bill Maher for refusing to be silenced by the Debate-Is-Over Brigade.

davec51 said...

Mr. Maher is one of my heroes, but he (twice) makes the mistake of saying that vaccines are injected into the bloodstream. Every vaccine I have ever had has been intramuscular. That's an important difference, I think.

ZenGrouch said...

"Every vaccine I have ever had has been intramuscular"...

If I'm not mistaken, this vaccine comes in a nasal spray application too.

Steve said...

This is not entirely relevant to the vaccines debate but deals with some other issues you've raised on your show, if you haven't already, check out this article:
It's an interesting thesis on the current American condition.

Anonymous said...

I don't know much about vaccines, but I do question the motives behind them and the fact that there isn't much debate. Maybe it's a "better safe than sorry" approach. Being in the military I've had my fair share; anything from the yearly flu shot, all the hepatitis, small pox, even anthrax. I've got my fingers crossed, hoping that it turns out there are no consequences for having so many shots.

tawarnolds said...

So Shermer is kind of criticizing Maher for not understanding the basic mechanism of evolutionary biology, and Maher's trust in vaccination is as far as he can throw his own ignorance. While praising vaccination for its employing the apotheosis of a principle of evolution, Shermer arrogantly doesn't feel the need to elaborate the "down sides" of it, but Maher feels every need to ostensibly elaborate the possibly bad things to the bitter end.

My god, man, why do people always feel the need to split the very thin air they breathe just to win an argument? Can't they both find a neutral ground simply for an unsympathetic truth? Jesus Christ, it's like looking at people waddling on the two extreme ends of a boat, and they all want nothing more than to push those on the other side off so that they can have the entire sunken boat to themselves. Skepticism is a good thing, so don't ruin it by what-ifing the what-ifs. What you partly know or don't fully know just say you don't know or shut the heck up. It's a shame that you both are using your power-medium like a salesperson.

Tor Hershman said...

There's a vaccination of films, & tv, that'll cure your woe's whoas and all ya gotz to do is visit moi's blog for all the details of how you (Yes, even you, Bill) could win dozens of movies in

Stay on groovin' safari,

ZenGrouch said...


I could be wrong, but maybe this argument is a two pronged pokie stick.

One stabbie guy is the argument.

The other barbed bitch, is the reaction to the argument.

Maher managed to get a rise out of you on a subject you seem to find moot.

That's kind 'a cool.

Dharmakāya said...

Hi Zen & Bill whose space this is,

I would imagine the decline in comments was mainly due to shutting off comments after Bill's last show aired. Maybe HBO got FISA-USAPATRIOT cavity searched... I don't know. I don't care for Soviet America. The clock is running down on this domestic spy shit.

I did read then what Bill posted. I have since watched it explained by real doctors at the soap opera network level. They got what Bill said right: swim in the East River and survive, you have a sturdy immune system for life. Otherwise, the genomes of your system will adapt to a more passive phenotype and you'll end up like Tiger Woops.

Woops! No prenup. Cats: 4, Dogs: 0

get the prenup, or zipit.

Dharmakāya said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I love Maher, but he's dead wrong on this issue. Steven Novella, head of the Skeptics Guide to the Universe criticizes Bill, here:

In a debate on who to trust: leading scientists/doctors in the field and Jenny McCarthy.... somehow Bill chose Jenny McCarthy. Come on Bill, you are letting me down. I defend you to all my conservative lunatic friends!!!

Ivy said...

So, Bill, have a real debate on this issue. Get some skeptics on your show (particularly Phil Plait) and talk about the merits of vaccination. Phil is a very interesting guy and would be a great addition to your show. I would love to see a debate between the two of you.

Jen said...

Shoot I meant to leave this comment here:



Anonymous said...

having witnessed the SARS virus in t.o. '03, the potential for a population being decimated w/o adequate control or precautions can be a real threat..YES, we are entitled to accurate information and obligated to practice prevention

Adam Luebke said...

You're a breath of fresh air, you confirmed bachelor. I'm surprised you don't have a PhD in Philosophy. Your arguments

Anonymous said...

...btw, damn Bill, I thought I and Joe Biden was long winded. JC.

gilbertlemon said...


Darthwinist said...

I'd like to think, and maybe I'm giving credit where it is not due, that much of the delay in responding to this post came from spotting the very obvious fear-mongering characteristics that perpetuate this non-issue.

Most of Maher's viewers, and other free thinkers are attuned to this sort of thing by now, aren't we? Code Orange...terrorism...evil cave dwellers? Now its the Cadillac of flus? The fact is flu-related deaths average around 40,000+/ year world-wide. H1N1 has a running toll of just over 15,000 this year, while cancer-related deaths are in the millions- remember cancer? Cigarettes, still offered at your local convenience store, still give you that! Who again is this convenient for exactly? Oh right...

The wool is by no means over our eyes on this one either. New virus = fear = demand for cure = scarcity = higher profits. The swine flu pseudo-epidemic is all the rage this season. The vaccine... this year's Guitar Hero. Get yours while its hot. So, will you be lined up for your fix, like 5 a.m. @ Walmart on Boxing Day, or will you be warmly sleeping in through this latest fad like some of us, again?

The point many have made, similar to "quit jerking-off that piece of plastic and just buy a real fucking guitar already", is just exercise, have a V8, and avoid easy short-cuts.

Happy holidays everyone! Let us not reflect on the distorted reasons for our up-coming time off, but embrace its hypocritical fruits. Fuck I love egg-nog.

(Bill, come to Edmonton, Canada. Don't make us ask Santa or god, neither of which have a good track record for taking requests.)

ZenGrouch said...

"The point many have made, similar to "quit jerking-off that piece of plastic and just buy a real fucking guitar already""...

Funny Stuff!

Roodbaard said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sheldon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sheldon said...

Just a piece of advice,before having a vaccination you need to consult first a doctor and have a test using elisa kits.These may help in detecting anti bodies and viruses in one's body.

Anonymous said...

Hey Bill,
Please site your sources on polio decling 50% in the years leading up to 1950. I did one Google search on the matter and the stories showed there was a steady visible rise in the number of polio cases. I could not find anywhere that stated a decline, so I would be interested in reading that article.

Faye said...

Just wanted to thank you, Bill, for being a public voice for the debate on vaccines which is a worthy and necessary one. I appreciate that you use your celebrity to make non-thinkers think. You are not a conspiracy theorist. You are a realist.

I posted this on Facebook (the only "blog" I utilize) and it applies here:

I find it interesting that the same media attacking those leary of the H1N1 vax as conspiracy-theorists, are now crying that money has influenced the new recommendations for breast cancer screening. Hello? Cost/profit will ALWAYS influence the recommendations these agencies and "task forces" come up with on our behalf. Never trust anyone (even your doctor) to make life or death recommendations w/out doing your own research!

Just consider the fact that there have been 26 routine childhood vaccines created and recommended since 1989 (for a whopping total of 36 injections by age 5). Most of us only had 10. Simultaneously, pediatric cancer rates, as well as neurological and auto-immune disorders have increased exponentially since then. But the agencies making the call see the dangerous and life-altering side-effects as secondary to a very minimal risk of death or injury by the disease its protecting against. If you happen to disagree with them, you should not be considered paranoid or a conspiracy theorist. You just weighed the risks/benefits and came to a different conclusion. That's all.

ZenGrouch said...

"Simultaneously, pediatric cancer rates, as well as neurological and auto-immune disorders have increased exponentially since then"...

Exponential increases in childhood cancer rates in the past 21 years?

I wasn't aware of this. Could you provide a link so that I can educate myself?

Sure, ADD and other "diseases" that can be treated by the pharmaceutical industry, are on the rise, as are the number of *drug pushers* in my doctor's office, every time I'm in there.

I see these Pharm Reps. as parasitic cockbites, fucking up the system for a profit. An obscene profit at that.

These motherfuckers fill the world with fear of disease and the poor messing with the status quo.

As far as the media painting those who stand up against vaccinations as crack pot conspiracy nuts... I haven't seen it, but then I don't watch Fox news.

Sure, in the past couple of years, there have been stories about those claiming in the civil court system, that mercury in vaccines is dangerous. Maybe it is, but if it is, why are those making the claims not able to provide scientific proof?

Shit happens, and kids get sick...

But for you to claim that all kinds of childhood illnesses have increased exponentially in the past 21 years, seems a bit hysterical to me. And trust me, I'm not saying that because I'm a huge fan of pharmaceutical industry.

Faye said...

If you want a graph, here's one:

If you want text, here's one:


The fact that incidences have gone up, but mortality has gone down bodes well for the pharmaceutical companies, and affirms your own point about them.

As for the media, it wasn't Fox News claiming non-vaxers as conspiracy theorists, it was actually Jon Stewart (who I usually love, but didn't on this point). He was trying to tear down Glenn Beck who was, in fact, acting as though the vaccine was a conspiracy, but in doing so, he lumped all non-vaxers into this category.

As for mercury...if there was no scientific evidence that it's harmful, why did they take thimerosol out of the vaccines?

By the way, vaccines are tested for reactions only up to 3 weeks post-inoculation. Long-term affects can currently only be surmised by the increase of neurological and auto-immune disorders (which even the vaccine inserts warn you of).

For what it's worth, I believe these disorders and diseases are on the rise due to increased environmental toxins, not JUST vaccines. But vaccines can be extremely harmful as heavy metals are injected into immature immune systems and before the blood-brain barrier is intact.

If people start dropping like flies around me with H1N1, I'll be happy to get the vaccine. Until then, I don't find the benefits to outweigh the risks, and there are many.

ZenGrouch said...


The graph and text data you provided come no where near backing up your original claim, regarding an exponential rise in childhood cancer or other medical problems in a time period related to an increase in vaccines, as you seemed to suggest.

Many experts will argue that the slight increase in childhood cancers in the past two decades is due to advances in the technology of cancer detection. Advanced technology which has resulted in lower mortality rates in children from cancer.

ZenGrouch said...

"As for mercury...if there was no scientific evidence that it's harmful, why did they take thimerosol out of the vaccines?"...

Thimerosal has been used in vaccines since the 1930's with no PROVEN adverse effects other than minor ones, such as redness and swelling at the injection site.

Thanks to frivolous lawsuits with no scientific proof that Thimerosal is dangerous, it's use has been reduced thanks to other currently available alternatives, in hopes of shutting up the fucking lawyers and their baseless lawsuits.

Come on, if this shit has been in widespread use, in billions of injections in the past 70 years, why can't these assholes in court provide some sort of scientific proof that Thimerosal is dangerous?

Sometimes shit happens, and nobody is responsible.

ZenGrouch said...

"The fact that incidences have gone up, but mortality has gone down bodes well for the pharmaceutical companies, and affirms your own point about them"...

I never claimed that the drug companies in their grand wisdom/greed are responsible for a lowering of the mortality rate of children suffering from cancer.

My assertion is that advanced diagnostics which reflect a higher cancer rate, are responsible for a lowering in the mortality rate.

ZenGrouch said...

The latest Boogie-Man that pisses me off are the constant *PAD* scare commercials, right your fucking leg goes to sleep and you got to wonder when that stroke or heart attack are coming. Fuck me!

But Buck up dumb fucks, there is a treatment for PAD and thank the Sweet Jesus there is a test, to determine if you need that treatment!

Fine print on that pseudo-medical propaganda, indicates that the the same pharmaceutical that supplies the test to determine if you need the treatment, also supplies the treatment.

So, next time your leg goes to sleep, be afraid... be very fucking afraid you stupid motherfucker!

Christ, we as a people are manipulated by the system so often, we consider grabbing our ankles exercise and a *good* thing.

ZenGrouch said...

Oh yeah...

And while you're hanging on to your ankles, getting fucked up the ass, you can listen to the shit that passes for music these days.

Thank God for American Idol to tell us what's worth listening to.

mike m said...


Faye said...

Man, you really are grouchy, aren't you! ;)


I read that data as an increase of almost 30%.


This is a very convenient argument that is also often used to explain the EXPONENTIAL increase in autism. It may be one factor, but it's not the entire story.

ZenGrouch said...


"...I read that data as an increase of almost 30%"...

Do you know what an exponential increase is?

The detection rate rises over a 20 year period by 30%, while the death rate for the same period goes down, and you're claiming that it's not technology that is responsible for the increased detection? The same kind of technology responsible for the decreased mortality rate?

No, this new and less deadly cancer that has raised by 30%, hardly an EXPONENTIAL rise by anyone's standards, is caused by vaccines!

Yes, the vaccines are responsible, now if only someone could show this in some kind of scientific method!

If only, THEN those ambulance chasing assholes could get their piece of the pie, and sleep well at night.

Look, if you can explain how this "30%" rise in childhood cancers over a 20 year period is an exponential rise as you claimed, and were called on, then I'll think about responding to your hysterics.

Otherwise, consider yourself bested in this argument worth having.

And yes, I am grouchy, thanks for pointing out the obvious.

ZenGrouch said...


For argument's sake, let's say I agree with you, and that advances in science over the past 21 years have absolutely nothing to do with improved/different methods of detecting childhood cancers and that this "exponential" increase in the numbers of cases is due entirely to vaccines.

If I understand you, this is what you're claiming, correct?

Now try this on for size...

If the above is true, wouldn't it be logical to come to the conclusion that, sure, the vaccines have increased the number of cancer cases, but they seem to have created a cancer that eats the more deadly forms of cancer that were around before this new strain came onto the scene!

The mortality rate went down, while the number of cases went up, therefore, the old cancer had to have somehow been displaced by this new form, created by vaccines, which is easier to treat and vanquish.

So what the fuck! Sure, vaccines will absolutely give you cancer, but it's the kind of cancer that gobbles up the bad cancers. Like good and bad cholesterol, right?

Faye said...

I'm not following your logic at all. If mortality rates of cancer have declined, I would consider the cause to be advancement in treatment, not a "cancer killing new cancer", if I'm understanding you correctly. Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but it's creative.

And to clarify about the "exponential" comment, I lumped cancer in with auto-immune and neurological disorders which have, in fact, increased exponentially. Cancer rates have risen and I see a tie to environmental toxins, just as I see the same tie of toxins to autism, alzheimers, diabetes, eczema, food allergies, ADD, etc., so I put them in the same category to simplify my point. But yes, you're right, using the word "exponential" was referring to those moreso than cancer, and perhaps I should have separated the two. It was not intended to create "hysteria", however.

You may now take your bow, as I'm sure you will.

ZenGrouch said...

"If mortality rates of cancer have declined, I would consider the cause to be advancement in treatment, not a "cancer killing new cancer""...

So advances in technology over the past 21 years have remained in neutral when it comes to detecting new cases that were previously undetectable, but the science of treating cancer has advanced along the lines of all other sciences?

And the increased number of cases of ADD has nothing to do with the pharmaceutical companies making obscene profits by drugging kids that once upon a time would have just been diagnosed as having 'ants in their pants'?

Maybe doctors are afraid of not being able to put their finger on a problem, so they diagnose and many times misdiagnose problems just so they can feel like they're doing their job. Slap some pills in a spirited kid and bam! problem solved!

In the old days, the doc might tell you, "Some people just like to quack like a duck. Wait a couple of years and your mother will be dead and stop quacking."

But now, they have to spend a fortune on someone with one foot in the grave, to find out exactly why this person is quacking like a duck, so they can prescribe the right and expensive medication.

When there actually are clusters of cancer, the cause is usually found and quickly. I'm not saying environmental factors don't cause health problems.

But when doctors start diagnosing problems that have existed for years and putting a name on 'em, loons look at the statistics then go off into left field looking for a ball that hasn't been pitched yet.

Maybe vaccines do cause new ills. But until you can present something other than opinion to back up your argument, maybe you should find that scientific data, THEN go off like a bottle rocket on a bus.

Faye said...

I don't think my argument was "loony" or that I "went off like a bottle rocket". Being that you thought so, I'll take my exit from this *ahem* debate. I know when there's a wall to bang my head against, and I'm not interested.

ZenGrouch said...

Yeah, the bottle rocket thing...

Perhaps not a great analogy, but an accurate one, when confronting those who rely on the fears of others, to perpetuate and expand those fears, using less than factual information as a tool.

If you don't care to respond to the logic casting doubt on your beliefs, that's cool.

If you believe that sound logic and facts are a brick wall, that's cool too.

offstart said...

Man, do Zen and Faye have lives? I just spent a good chunk of mine reading their "argument." Faye, quit wasting your time on someone that thinks you have come up against sound logic and facts; all Zen did was use turn around questions on your research and facts causing you to argue with yourself! He never presented a single fact, but just questioned yours with attitude! Have fun people, but ignore her warnings about autism and vaccines and someone in your family may pay the price for your ignorance.

ZenGrouch said...


Care to refute my statement, which I presented as fact:

"Thimerosal has been used in vaccines since the 1930's with no PROVEN adverse effects other than minor ones, such as redness and swelling at the injection site"...

ZenGrouch said...

...yeah, just as I suspected.

The other alarmist didn't want to acknowledge that steamin' turd in the middle of the floor either.

lens said...

Hi Bill,

Hope you're enjoying the fog. Never mind the earthquakes, here comes the mud! Aaarrgh... glub.

After you've had enough fun pranking on the tantric stupidity of S Palin and her legion of brainwashed idiots you might want to come play at the Burning Man. The theme this year is "Evolution". Need I say more? No inquisitors! You and Dr Dawkins can design and build a village, mpve in and let your hair down.

Check it here:

lens said...

Oh I was off theme. Sorry, but I was done wondering if the healthcare industry for profit gave a fuck about me in 1980. It took me 3 months to get it, but it I got with the bill.

Perhaps we should talk about the virtues of electroshock therapy or DDT? At least noone has ever reversed the verdict on Agent Orange, but both ECT and DDT have made a comeback through the masters of the disturbed Palin sideshow.

Her crowfeet are showing, large, baggy eyes, tons of pancake! O ho ho, all the Republican church men & boys who have bought the fantasy are about to get impotent! Investment tip: Viagra, the Republicans are no longer breeding normally.

No seriously. These immature hubbs and children are about to get a taste of Republican false advertising, false flag, fake tits and ugh! Old MILF! Doh! Dph! Doh! Ahahahaha

I would like very much if Bill Maher would point out to people how obviously they are being sidetracked from important political events that should be news, by fake propaganda shows that aren't. It is interesting how Tiger Wood's bitches came up the week Obama recieved the Nobel prize for absol fucking lutely nothing. Zip, nada, zero. Oh, and at the time he received the block of wood with a casting on it that might have cost twenny dolla, he was escalating a war against absolutely dirt poor people with a mean age of 17, while continuing a war of aggression against a people who he is afraid to leave alone, as they might resent the last 10 years of murder by USA and be more amenable to the Eastern Block.

I also heard a rumor that Sheik Obama i going to formally dismiss the Nuremberg Accords.

Fuck that, my DNA is in the ink on that paper.

Woops, off point again. Nevermind, go back to what you were doing. Move away, there is nothing going on here. Look away.

David said...

I have a suggestion. Since our politicians don't seem to give a shit about anything but not being slaughtered by their faceless oligarchic masters, I think we should use them to negotiate.

This is just a rough idea but what say we offer Al Queda to execute George W Bush and Dick Cheney if they execute bin Laden? We can throw in Condi, Ashcroft and Rumsfield to sweeten the deal, & cut government expenditures in the process.

Of course the Al Queda will want to attend our execution and we theirs, just to make sure the villain is indeed dead. No problem, we can find common ground - and a bloodthirsty audience for the broadcast - in Baghdad. I would just trade, but we have to be sure that none of these pricks cuts a deal and rises to power in the other camp.

Its just an idea. Then we can send the 30,000 US troops to protect the Palestinians from the genocide the jews are executing and finally mend fences with all the Arabic states.

W will understand this, its like making player trades, or bilateral disarmament. You kill one of your homicidal douchebag commanders, we'll kill one of ours. How many senators are there? How many Pentagon birds? The soldiers will understand its not personal, its what they must do for the country. Just like when they send our children to die for line in the sand in some worthless shithole in a poor country that can't feed itself, let alone raise an army.

Is that detente? Which reminds me, we mustn't let our so called allies jump us while we are working on this. Throw an electronic fence around Israel, just like they have done to the Palestinian people. No PR, no more lies. No more bullets either. Shut up Rabbi Wormtongue Lieberman too. When I hear 'heart disease' or 'cancer', I see his face. He has a big ass Irish drinking nose, maybe his conduct is just due to organic brain syndrome due to alcohol poisoning. Maybe he is just a miserable old scrooging loser, cold and bitter through and through.

If Obama still wants to negate on his campaign promises, he can go too, instead of playing Tiger's 18 hoe course through northern Europe. Lets throw all the insurance CEOs in too.

This idea is called, You send our kids to die, we send your boss. I think this will be very popular.

Its just a thought to take action to create a world in which peace and free trade might be possible.

MODE said...

You really need to start a movement against Big Pharma, the FDA, and corporate food giants that have led to the deterioration of our health.

Think about it, companies like Monsanto genetically modify soy beans and patent it - the FDA approves chemicals excitotoxins like aspartame in our food - the gov't subsidizes corn which allows for derivatives like corn syrup to be made...the list goes on and on and we wonder why so many people get sick and suffer from diseases that were once rare.

Want more? What about flouridated water, glutamate (check your wheat - another subsidized commodity), gluten, tainted meat.

TTT said...

Oh, sure, here comes a novel idea: starting a movement. Just like most things that have no scientific basis, a "movement" is usually needed to propound a contrived fear; and at the spearhead, there is usually a celebrity or two. Classic!

David said...

The Bowel Movement: cleansing the colon through organic high fiber diet. Clear your mind, join us.

This is a serious movement. Americans have the shortest average lifespan of the industrialized nations. disappointing failed monogamous, adulterated street drugs and stress are killing us.

In comparison, the Japanese had no heart disease until they started working too many hours. You can tell they are because their birth rate has declined below sustainability. They eat a great diet, lots of fish, rice & fresh vegetables.

In contrast the French chug bottles of wine daily and eat the richest food on the planet, enjoying life to the fullest while easily outliving Americans. According to the United Fruitcake Outlet authorities this is not possible. Yet it is true.

The French don't wolf down 1600 calorie pig sandwiches in 3 bites. They give their boss the finger, go home early and start drinking. They have a few glasses with friends, enjoy animated discussions - actually learning things - then open another bottle with dinner. The conversation continues and they slowly eat modest portions of the best food ever.

The point is, its not what you eat as much as it is how you live that kills you. Gluttony is a lifestyle choice, so is trusting some guy getting paid, threatened or blackmailed by pharma and the insurance mafia to sell their crap.

Take a moment each day to celebrate The Bowel Movement and to clear the toxins from your lfestyle.

David said...

...if taking a shit doesn't relieve or please, leave one somewhere that does.

Its just an idea.

Anonymous said...

Joe Lieberman is looking more like Don Knotts every day... so is Sister Sarah! That turkey neck is so sexiful.

Not to impune Don Knotts. He was great, lived to receive his star.

Poor Todd. I mean, I would be praying for death if I had to put up with that nutjob.

Anonymous said...

Bill while you are on vacation you should read 'The Man Who Pushed America To War' by Aram Roston.This guy did his homework, the stench reaks all the way to the Federal Reserve.

Its a blueprint to exploit the US federal government, following the trail of one Ahmad Chalabi. Its quite embarrassing to the Bush administration, not flattering to Clintons either, but it exposes the character of the bank gluttons Obama just gave 700 billion USD: W's worthless frat bros.

By the time you read this Obama will have delivered us to the unregulated international insurance cartels. I miss Pablo Escobar, it was simpler then.

Anonymous said...




- President John Quincy Adams, 1830

Anonymous said...


- Patrick Henry

Jan said...

pffff, you al need a lot of words to say something which I don´t understand.
here in the Netherlands people are not vaccinated if they are between 15 and 60 and don´t have young children under 1 year in the home, and don´t have medical need for vaccination. Though our healthminister ordered 32 milion vaccines for 16 milion people.

It could have been worse. Today I read that the virus is less active, less people are having the mex-flu (as we call it)

Anonymous said...

Don't worry, Bill. You are not alone in your beliefs. There are people in your audience who are as astute and curious as you would hope. Keep talking shit about vaccines, high fructose corn syrup, religion, etc. But please, stop wearing those shiny gray suits - that is where you lose credibility!

Anonymous said...

The Corporation: A Michael Moore movie, hecho en Canada.

My bottled fruit drink beverage with additives says it contains no high fructose corn syrup. Its primary ingreediets are cane and beet root sugar Is this a comprehension/literacy test?

My head hurt, I don't get it. I need more drugs. Oh thanks George.

Just kidding. I read that off someone else's trash at the bus stop.

George Bush and Son, Unlimited.
International Arms Dealers and Drug Traffickers,
Jesus is waiting for us. Damn.

Anonymous said...

I am acutely aware that Usama bin Laden did not attack the insurance capital - where all the Jews are. He did not attack the government either, that was staged by Dick Cheney, just like the fake USA produced anthrax attack. Bin Laden attacked the world center of corporation central command.

If you look at it this way, its not such a bad idea. I would not harm anyone except in self defense, then I'm happy to end my assailants, permanently. I perceive my government as idiots more than intentional criminals.

The continuing crimes of our government makes me lean toward the lesser of the pain inflictors. I think the insurance industry is going down, for good. its like the second phase of Usama's plan... executed by his #2 fool, the president.

mistiparnell said...


Anonymous said...

Strike 1: Wall Street bailout / Finance reform legislation. Free the vipers!
Strike 2: Escalating Afghanistan war. Aren't we after Bin Laden/El Queso? sum is 50,000+ troops & $140 Billion to do what, exactly?
Strike 3: Healthcare bill. Whether it passes or not this has been a disaster, dividing already corrupt politicians and distracting from vital issues. If it passes, its the beginning of an avalanche.

Its not that these aren't real issues, its how badly the solutions have been negotiated. I am perfectly happy if Obama resigns. If he doesn't fire Ram Emanuel by 2012 I'll be voting against him just to fire that hack myself, and to dump all their extremely bad cabinet appointments.

I expect there will be more than 2 parties running viable presidential candidates in 2012, maybe as many as 6 + a few crazy fringe parties. This would be a good thing, but the electoral college could create a serious national revolt if their selection in no way reflects the voter's choice.

Anonymous said...

I see a lot of comments on here equating pharm companies and vaccines with significantly higher profits. This couldn't be further from the truth. Vaccines for the most part don't generate much profit for pharm companies. Do your research.

As for vaccines, I too believe conversations should be had about the safety of all these vaccines and in combination with one another - but on a scientific level, between scientists.....not between idiots on the subject like Bill, some members of my family, and Jenny McCartney. No offense, but you can't sit here and hypothesize about vaccines without peer reviewed data and statistical evidence pointing to a legitimate cause and effect.

There will always be the .01% of people who get fucked by a vaccine. But damn, when 10% of the population gets scared about that .01%, those 10% are fucking up the entire system. If my family is vaccinated, and we are surrounded by many people who are not vaccinated and who carry the disease, my health will still be compromised.

I suppose the bottom line is.....if you and your family chose not to vaccinate, you better be legally and financially liable in the event you or your child passes on a disease to me or my child.

Anonymous said...

Edit on post above: not "...cause and effect" more like "a statistically significant relationship."

Anonymous said...

Wow. I am reading even more of these comments, and some of you people still think there is a cause and effect between vaccines and autism? Are you people for real? There have been dozens of studies since the upheaval in around 2002 showing there is no cause and effect whatsoever - or a statistically significant relationship for that matter - between vaccines and autism.

Do you people read scientific journals or do you just sit around hypothesizing about "toxins" and how bad they (whatever you purpose them to be) are to you and your family?

Some of you say you do your research, when in fact you actually don't. Research into vaccines should only be done through scientific readings which would be scientifically peer reviewed journals and studies. Not a bunch of moms on an internet chat board freaking out about that .01% of the population.

Maybe that movie "Idiocracy" will indeed become true after all.

Faye said...


If you and your child are vaccinated, how is it that YOU are at risk from someone unvaccinated? It would be the latter susceptible to the disease, not the former.

And besides, I'm not injecting myself with formaldehyde, aluminum, ethylene, etc., for the sake of anyone ELSE's health. You can be the guinea pig, that's your choice, but it's my choice to take the risk on diseases that are rare and treatable.

Adam Luebke said...

Bill, you're golden! Read my article: '2010: The Best Year to Die'. You will dig it. I am quite certain.
You get this all the time, I know.

Bob said...


Bob said...

Since we're on the subject of healthcare.
Even though we know your opinion on the healthcare issue, and some of the reasons you're against westernized medicine. one of them being we're all fat, so that's why we're sick. and the crap in our food. We don't really know that much about what you think would be a better type of medicine than western. So you're saying all you have to do is eat better, and thatwould cure all diseases? and rule out all food additives and sugars. Or do we have to take some certain supplement? Like would you suggest taking echinachea to improve your immune system over getting a flu shot?

If you end up outliving us all and live to about 120, then you would have the last laugh but i dont see it. Many different people have lived for many years following the very medicine that we all follow hear in the US. many different people from other places such as in china lived for many years on just diet and way of life.

Again we hear time and time again your against Western views on Medicine. But what do you want to replace western medicine with? voodoo type asian acupuncture crap?? Or do you want all our auras checked and fixed, then maybe we'll be healthy!!!???? Again, you're definitely a rational man as pointed out in "Religilous", but I think you're views on medicine are quite irrational if you believe in acupuncture and all that hippie stuff. or maybe if i smoke this herb that comes from this earth, all my body will be healed.... :(

Maybe you could point out some actual specifics that keep yourself healthy and in good shape. Like what you eat/ or supplements etc. or anything else that would be relevant

Paul Camp said...

Doctors are not scientists. They are technicians. To be a scientist requires a Ph. D., not an M.D. What M.D.s say is rule driven, not understanding driven.

Trouble is all the issues you think you are raising for the first time ever have already been raised and answered repeatedly in scientific debates over the last two centuries or so since vaccination was invented.

There are problems with vaccines. The polio vaccine, for instance, is a weakened virus, not a killed one, and because of that a small number of people still get polio every year, from the virus itself. The trouble is that this was a political decision, made by our fearless leaders, not a scientific decision. The Salk vaccine, which won him the Nobel prize, and which was recommended by scientists, is a killed virus vaccine and cannot cause disease. But a weakened virus causes secondary immunity from shed virus particles -- in effect, you vaccinate people who never got inoculated. The feds believe that is a good tradeoff.

The trouble I have with people such as yourself is that you are "raising questions" and "educating yourself" when you really don't have the expertise to even ask appropriate questions. I am a physicist, not a biologist, but even I, with my limited knowledge, cringe at the blatant ignorance and, dare I say it? stupidity that informs some of your "questions."

Now I don't say this to be belligerent or combative. I recognize that you believe what you say just as deeply as some in the black community believe that whites engineered AIDS.

But you can't begin to imagine how scientists look at you wander into this area. It is entirely appropriate to ask questions, but you reject the answers. You reject the data. You don't even tell anecdotes. Your arguments consist entirely of "don't you think . . ." and "doens't it stand to reason . . . "

It has gotten to the point that I can't watch your show anymore. Your arguments on global warming are entirely undermined by your positions on prescription drugs and vaccines. In the end, I appreciate your position on climate change, but frankly it is just as faith based as everything else you believe.

You appear to be motivated by a belief that technology is to be presumed bad. That is simply foolish.

ZenGrouch said...


Please tell me you're kidding on this issue!

Anonymous said...

Please refresh my memory. What state institution did Benjamin Franklin get his Ph.D from? Wait wait wait, my name is Charlie McCoy. What slave granting institution did I attend in order to invent the most stuff any one person has ever done, excluding the generation of IP thieves?

Paul, you have to stop rolling up your feces in sheepskin before excreting them. Its causing global warming.

Anonymous said...

Galileo rejected the data; Newton rejected the data; Einstein rejected the data. Just to drop a few names of real physicists, you stupid poser.

Paul, get a refund. You need to invest all that money you spent on tuition on psychiatric counseling. You are one small disturbed man.

Anonymous said...

Its not too surprising that the pro-life senators are anti-health care reform. I mean, health care reform is the ultimate pro-life program.

I think we should review and reduce senate pay and benefits to be representative of the mid level mangers they are. With of course performance reviews impacting their damn raises.

Sorry congresswhore Richjewspycuntnazi from Venice CA, but your job performance no longer merits a porno allowance. You are required by law to turn in all your coke, heroin and any triple beams & glass pipes in your posession, until you get a 4 or better. Learn to duck, bitch!

Jim from GTA said...



Good luck with your journey to see the truth.


Anonymous said...

Hi Bill

Happy International Jewish Retailer's Day!

Anonymous said...

I'm no expert in politics, but I am an expert in health / medicine / science. The more I hear Maher talk about medicine and healthcare, makes me question everything he's said about politics. He gets away with his lack of knowledge by saying "I'm just a comedian", but argues like he's speaking the word of god.

There are specific medical guidelines on who should receive the flu shot or the h1n1 flu shot b/c it saves lives. h1n1 is DEADLY for anyone even remotely immunocompromised: children, elderly, pregnant women, people with coexisting disease. these people should be vaccinated; this isn't even a debate. not everyone can "boost their own immune system". For everyone else, people with no medical problems, the only reason to consider getting a flu shot is to prevent spread to those who are immunocompromised (i.e. hospital workers).

btw, as an aside, the only way to lower healthcare costs is with malpractice reform. doctors order countless of useless tests to avoid being sued. I would like to hear Maher attempt to raise this issue.

Anonymous said...

I am disheartened by Bill Maher's lack of understanding of science, germ theory, and vaccination. I have 'religiously' recorded and watched his shows for years. I am seriously considering abandoning his shows, despite the fact that I love his political humor. It is simply not enough to ignore his distorted views.
His halfassed apology simply doesn't cut it. Arrogance is at times tolerable but stupidity is not!

ZenGrouch said...

"His halfassed apology simply doesn't cut it"...

What are you talking about.

I say, Speak up son!

I'm betting you're that idiot Paul Camp, but too ashamed to use *that* name again.

Anonymous said...

I am the real Anonymous!

Stop using my name to astroturf this blog, you marketing twit. You an expert in health, medicine and science? Dr. Pearson, I presume? Dirk Pearson, the brilliant Harvard triple major/minor?

If you aren't Dr. Pearson you'll have to be more specific about your expertise. Perhaps you are an alcoholic proctologist? I would regard Senator & Dr. Ron Paul, OB/GYN as an expert in politics and a FORMER expert in medicine. How do you keep up with the tremednous advancements on all these fields?

If you are not Dr. Pearson I suggest you make an appointment with your senators for a crash course in fraud and bilking via the mass media. I thought they taught this in med school... when did you complete? If you are so accomplished I am sure they will be eager to hear your views on the decent of humanity etc.

Happy winter solstice festival! Keep each other warm at night, getting knocked up is optional!

Anonymous said...

No! I am the real Anonymous.

Thats Dr. Durk Pearson, Libertarian of MIT fame, triple major/minor, best of the best, you elitist brand tattooed snob. Check your pub*lication*s prior, not just the pub. Check your facts before you post.

Taste this: Libertarian Celebrities and VIPs

You will see Mr. Maher's name. You need to upgrayedd.

Anonymous said...

Are you a libertarian? Take this short test:

click here

Anonymous said...

That didn't get past the GOOG censor. try this:

click here

Willy said...

I just found your Blog,and I hope that Twitter nation hasn't taken you away from writing on here....I need to hear your voice

Anonymous said...

Lets pretend that this is all a game and no Americans ever get hurt. This is exactly what Rupert Murdoch sells on all his media channels.

We do get hurt and die just like all the victims of the Judeo-Christian regime that has controlled - and violated - the American Democracy since the assassination of Lincoln.

Thats it.

If we aren't the good guys who is? Who killed JFK? Some say the Federal reserve bankers did it, because he was going to put the USD back on the gold standard. It could have been many an angry father or husband, but I am inclined to think the bankers had the most to lose.

Truman NUKED civilians! Everyone is suffering because the willfully ignorant are in control. Step aside or die with us, you fucking fools!

Fuck your desert prophets and your sky Gods. Do some good, then I'll listen. No religion has done any good yet, so lets dump this detritus.

Anonymous said...

I am the Real Anonymous!

Now that I have made that boring + gotten so high eating excellent California weed products, I am so high I only wish you could all enjoy this too!

I can't stop laughing!

Be sure to vote for freedom! Think for yourselves!

Gotta go!

Anonymous said...

Hi Bill

Here is some bullshit that is so offensive that after comprehending it, you will not only hold Barack Hussein Bush in contempt, but you will also fear for your nation and probably bring it up when you come back online in February.

Drilldown #1

Fannie Mae (FNM +21%) and Freddie Mac (FRE +25%) are reaping the benefits of the Treasury's late Christmas Eve announcement to remove all limits on their debt guarantees, and not force them to reduce their mortgage portfolios.

Drilldown #2

Treasury says it will back Fannie Mae (FNM) and Freddie Mac (FRE) no matter how big their losses in the next three years, removing previous caps of $200B each. Treasury also said it will not require nor expect the GSEs to reduce the size of their mortgage-related investment portfolios next year, as they had previously been required to do.

Federal published source:

Well, there goes the economy and in its destruction, the bullshit healthcare insurance giveaway that I estimate at $320 billion annual. Thats probably not enough to bail out the fake and equally fucked social security program that the boomers started tapping during the Bush decidership.

May I suggest legalizing marijuana? I'm not going to pay taxes and its not going to benefit the economy in any way, but it makes me a little less likely to go hunting politicians and raising a militia.

Peas, out

lens said...

"The United States stands with those who are seeking universal rights."

- President Obama

Apparently with the glaring exception of the Palestinians, Haitians, Nicaraguans, Columbians, Afghanis, Chinese -remember Tiananmen Square - those protesters and journalists are still lost in prison, and anyone else who votes the wrong way and elects the wrong puppet.

President Obama has changed into a Bushy in a Obama suit. He's even starting to look like Dick Nixon!

Anonymous said...

Get to the point! You talk too much.

MrsPain said...

Ask your doctor about the following blog:

(It's about the evils & risks of mainstream medicine, in form of news articles and letters sent to the FDA)

Anonymous said...

Excellent video about the swine flu, ignorant politicians & hysteria by US Senator Ron Paul Md, supporting Bill Maher's opinion:

Anonymous said...

Staying in bed shouting Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! doesn't constitute going to church, so you can't prosecute me for blasphemy.

lens said...

Here is some real American History X for you:

What set Bill Hicks off, watch the whole thing:

On the Origin of Swine floo:

Posse Comitatus Act (12/31/2008)

"It'll take time to restore chaos." - W

Happy New Year Bill!

Anonymous said...

Free Chris Boyce & Dalton Lee, Congress Slut Jane Harman did worse. Sanction Karl Rove, make the world a better place!

Anonymous said...

Oh everyone here is so inteligent and have such a correct perspective of the world!
If I wasn't getting sufocated by everyone's egos I would be even more amazed!

ZenGrouch said...

"If I wasn't getting sufocated by everyone's egos I would be even more amazed!"...

That's not "ego"...'s scrotum, you suck hole.

lens said...

Hey Bill,

I liked the Bill Maher-Gore Vidal interview format. I would like to see similar shows with Ron Paul, Noam Chomsky & Howard Zinn, for starters.

Karl Rove (aka Bush's Brain) is so sure that he is right about everything that he's just dying to boast about his accomplishments. I would enjoy your conversation with him.

I notice that the power elites are undermining Obama's efforts at every turn. Failing to balance California's budget as an excuse to cut vital education funding is exactly the kind of tactic I would expect from them. Not having a Republican president is convenient for them, they have a ready scapegoat. We need to be more aware of the local battles & Power Elite treacheries...

Silver said...

You're goddamn brilliant. It probably sucks, and I back you entirely.

Scoopdig said...

Bill, Bigger than vaccines: chemotherapy. I am so incensed that I was almost sentenced to death by chemo, that I started my own blog (please read the posts there for specific information). The general public must be awakened to the myth of chemo. Everything you have been led to believe about chemo is a lie. Please take this on. This issue is so huge, it needs someone of your stature and with your attributes. 600,000 Americans are dying needlessly each year from chemotherapy, NOT FROM CANCER. It is the chemo that kills, not the cancer. Thank you. Margaret Bermel, Long Island, NY

Anonymous said...

lens wake up and smell the bs. you think his own cabinet is undermining him?

lens said...

Worst thing about Tiger Woods is that golf is now mostly reruns!

Chocolope said...

Awesome video!

Sheeple of America by Payday Monsanto

Anonymous said...

Saw your PETA movie. It was informative & well presented = good.

You have the right to support this because even though you haven't spoken up about specific ongoing cruelty to humans and the continuing liberty of their state sponsored torturers and murderers, you also support basic human rights.

Ingrid however, needs to add homo sapiens to her list of animals requiring basic protections. I think this would improve her position.

“The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.” - John F. Kennedy, 1963

Anonymous said...

Bill fails to mention the conflicts of interest at the CDC.

A significant # of scientists on the panel that approves vaccinations hold patents on the vaccines they are evaluating and work for vaccine manufacturers.
... See More
I heard this guy, Dr. Paul Offit on NPR say he could remain objective when evaluating a vaccine he stood to make about 3 million on if approved. I have seen that he has made a lot more. Even if only the 3-4 million he cops to, I say toro poop.

At some point, acceptable risk, data included, etc. is subjective. Even if unconscious, his participation in the processes is inappropriate. One has to question the CDC's credibility on vaccines. At the very least, he should recuse himself from voting on any vaccine he held a patent on.

In 2006 legislation was proposed to address this. I haven't been able to find out if it passed.

ZenGrouch said...

"A significant # of scientists on the panel that approves vaccinations hold patents on the vaccines they are evaluating and work for vaccine manufacturers"...

And you know this, how?

Sheesh, some assholes will believe anything.

Anonymous said...

He mentioned the American diet as one of the culprits. What if every show he chose a specific favorite food that Americans regularly enjoy, say, the Whopper, and went into minute detail about how it is actually made? And I'm talking really minute, like how the cows are raised and slaughtered, whatever unrecognizable ingredients go into the sauce, how far the buns are shipped, and in what "garden" the vegetables are grown.

I'll bet there are hundreds of choices which would provide us with endless glee in seeing how America's favorite foods are "manufactured." Let me think of a few:

1. Any McDonalds or Burger King selection (even the parfaits)

2. Pop Tarts

3. Cereal (Trix, Fruit Loops, Lucky Charms, etc.)

4. Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream

5. Any microwave dinner

6. Doritoes

7. Red Bull

Any other suggestions?

Per said...

It's really fascinating, as Michael Shermer points out, that Bill Maher's rationality radar turns almost completely off and only picks upp woo-sites' claims about vaccines and their toxins and whatnot.

For example, as Steven Novella, at Neurologia and Science-based Medicine, remains the bastion of medicinal rational reasoning, I suggest you commenters and hopefully you, Bill, take a look at where your information comes from.

It's utterly devastating to know that what you have done so far almost doesn't compensate the things you've said about vaccines. Because let's face it, vaccines are more directly about life and death than almost any matter you, Bill, has taken up during your years as a debunker and sceptic. I don't care about David Icke or 2012, really, and religion is seldom a direct cause for suffering. But vaccines, if people don't take them, lots of people will die for exactly that reason. That includes people who need herd immunity.

Anonymous said...

I believe vacinations are the death of us all....just ask me...Malinda Aspen,CO

Anonymous said...

Hey Bill Maher, hello from greece. I really liked your religulus movie. It was damn awesome!
Also i try to watch your old show in youtube because i don't know how to watch online TV, but anyway, YOU ROCK DUDE!
Take care buddy!

Anonymous said...

hey bill,

if you need something new to discuss. besides...corrupt minimum wage laws and increasing number of college grads who are now homeless....i found this:

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Anonymous said...

i agree the subject matter is a tad irrelevant by now.

maybe bill should discuss something more refreshing like how half of america earns close to minumum wage. still. but i'm assuming the dude is too much of an asshat and out of touch when it comes to more pertinant reasons behind poverty...besides wall street. and people like him and HBO.

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Rob Cheshire said...

Bill is humorous yes, but one of the most arrogant, self-centered and non-objective rich people in America. Hey, this goof, rebukes a Christian in the military for believing in The Bible, while he believes his great grand father was a monkey! Now, that's logic! I really don't trust people that think more of animals than do of fellow humans. Bill defines what is wrong with most Americans today, their arrogance.
Rob Cheshire,

Shani Greene-Dowdell said...

I'm not getting the vaccine because flu shots make me sick. Glad your coming back on HBO, though!

MrsPain said...

It's shocking how ignorant some people insist on being. Even the FDA admits that they don't yet have all the information about the side effects of the new vaccines.

Not to mention, the link to the website found in that article is utterly useless, because has very limited information about the side effects of H1N1 "swine flu" vaccine.

Let's fine a real pandemic to be concerned about. said...

I am simply here to comment that Real Time with Bill Maher does not do a sufficient job in vetting guests. Many of the guests are extremely doctrinal and have both weak subject matter expertise and deep elitist predispositions which they do not logically understand why they hold. Please contact me as I can easily vet these candidates and greatly improve the quality of information which is provided to Real Time viewers.

自由人 said...

Me likey doctrinal perspectives; much easier for the audience to flambe. Shaun, try to think of it like Jerry Springer running around with a psychic axe and no pants on. Bill brings out so much in his guests.

I hope for the Maher/Rove interviews. I'd like to see these two match wits. I know how to level the field and I'll advise for free.

Bill is suppose to be back around the anniversary of Al Capone's Valentines Day political campaign. Suitable too, as America has been served up during his absence. You wanna de fried shosheshasheshoe wit dat?

lens said...

I am so much happier to see the US govt drop 100M USD in aid than 100M in heavy ordinance. Isn't this much better than the psychotic Bill Stein sponsored genocide in Gaza and the Dopey Bush clusterfucks in Iraq & Afghanistan? Maybe Hillarious the klown will larn hessef sumpin.

As for George W & Bill C managing the charity moneys 'efficiently', well that Orwellian memory hole trick doesn't work on me, fuckers. Don't send cash, send something the poor kids can use. Fuck the rich cheats and gangs!

Roberto Pena said...

As a physician who has practiced for many years, and formerly worked in a laboratory with a Nobel Laureate in Medicine,I am very disappointed with Mr. Maher's reckless, biased comments about vaccines. In fact, he doesn't even identify Dr. Russell
Blaylock as a frequent commentator on Pat Robertson's 700 Club, a retired physician who has often been referred to as a "quack", far from mainstream medical opinion. During his internship at South Carolina, he accused the program as being "leftist radicals who were destroying Western Culture." He also does not identify the National Vaccine Center as a long-standing anti-vaccine group, founded by parents who believed there children were harmed or died as the result of vaccine. Its purpose is not objective examaination of vaccine results.

I have long enjoyed his show, his New Rules, and the debates he fosters. I will now either not watch any more or be very skeptical about his opinions.

ZenGrouch said...

"As a physician who has practiced for many years, and formerly worked in a laboratory with a Nobel Laureate in Medicine..."

Sure you are! :)

lens said...

Video: Hitler Finds Out Scott Brown Won Massachusetts Senate Seat

Anonymous said...

Balls to the wall; ATWA

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lens said...

Judas Priest rocks all the way, best of the guitar Gods!

lens said...

Victim of Changes

Now you all go kill yourselves. Do us a favor and leave a note stating that you did it to save the planet, not because you heard disco, m'k?

Elizabeth said...

Warning: Ghostwriting may be hazardous to your health

Of the top 50 medical schools in the United States, as defined by the 2009 U.S. News & World Report’s research ranking, only 13 – or 26 percent – have publicly available policies in place that strictly prohibit ghostwriting, according to a survey in this week’s PLoS Medicine.

The survey was conducted by Jeffrey Lacasse, an assistant professor at ASU’s School of Social Work on the Downtown Phoenix campus, and Jonathan Leo, from Lincoln Memorial University-DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine, in Harrogate, Tenn., who define medical ghostwriting as “the practice of pharmaceutical companies secretly authoring journal articles published under the byline of academic researchers.”

“The ability of industry to exercise clandestine influence over the peer-reviewed medical literature is a serious threat to public health,” say Lacasse and Leo. In 2009, the Institute of Medicine recommended that all U.S. academic medical centers create specific publication guidelines banning ghostwriting, but the new survey suggests that many schools are not following this recommendation.

Physicians and health professionals rely on medical journal articles – especially those from top academic centers – to guide their understanding of a patient’s health condition and choice of the best treatment. Ghostwritten articles may exaggerate a treatment’s benefits and downplay its harms.

To view the report, click here.

The authors of the report searched for publicly available documents issued by the 50 schools to see if medical schools laid out clear policies about ghostwriting and authorship. They found that a quarter of the schools have an authorship policy that does not clearly ban all aspects of ghostwriting. More than half – 26 schools – had no authorship policies published online.

Lacasse and Leo call for increased awareness of this issue in the academic community and creation of enforceable, specific publication guidelines which prohibit ghostwriting. They say that deans of academic medical centers can eliminate an important threat to public health by simply enacting and enforcing a strict ban on medical ghostwriting.

Corey Schubert,
(602) 496-0406
College of Public Programs

Tequila Mockingbird said...

Nobody gets America's size 20 stretch pants in a wad like Bill Maher! I just wonder how long it will before we get bacon-flavored mercury?

ZenGrouch said...

"Journal Retracts 1998 Paper Linking Autism to Vaccines"

Seems the author of the article, that started a shit storm, LIED!

MrsPain said...

Check out this article from Johns Hopkins:

"Mercury has often been implicated as the culprit for a variety of health issues, from being a possible source of developmental disorders like autism, due to the mercury preservative in vaccines, to being potentially toxic for tuna-ingesting sushi-lovers.

And though mercury poisoning often receives much of the publicity, it is a little known fact that mercury, in the form found in marine wildlife and in many workplaces, can cause severe autoimmune responses and even increase the body's susceptibility to infectious diseases.

"Research on mercury as an immunotoxic agent is relatively new, and these are the first studies to demonstrate effects on immune modulation in humans," said Ellen Silbergeld, the senior author of the study and a professor of Environmental Health Studies at Hopkins' Bloomberg School of Public Health.

When mice were exposed to inorganic mercury, the researchers found that it changed the pattern of cytokine release, which are compounds that function as signaling molecules in the immune system. Mercury exposure caused more pro-inflammatory cytokines and fewer anti-inflammatory cytokines to be released.

"There is evidence that mercury can increase risks of both autoimmune disease and certain infectious diseases," Silbergeld said. "These consequences may involve a set of fundamental mechanisms in which the proinflammatory response is not counterbalanced."

ZenGrouch said...


OK, if there were studies showing that the above really was "a little known fact" that those on the mercury poisoning band wagon and their multitude of lawyers, would take this "little known fact" and shine just a little light on it?

You know, bring this little known fact into court, or maybe publish a scientific study on it, backing up the false accusations made, in the name of feeding the lawyers?

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Anonymous said...

I read the blog because I, and several other women I know, are pregnant and have to make the decision whether or not to be vaccinated. I discussed it with my husband and honestly have made a decision that we feel is best for us and for our baby.
I find the title the best concept- A CONVERSATION WORTH HAVING. A conversation means weighing both opinions-for and against-and using your knowledge of your body and your beliefs and making a decision for yourself.

Right of the Truth said...

This is a little out there, but did you know that Komodo Dragons live up to 50 years, never get sick, and have about every single species of septic bacterium living in their saliva. How can you get sick when you have formed a symbiotic relationship with every single dangerous bacterium? Maybe humans should take a lesson from this. Rather than trying to avoid exposure to viruses and bacteria, we should expose ourselves to them intentionally. Yeah we'll get sick a lot, but perhaps as a species, we will evolve much stronger immune systems. Ok, I'm being a bit facetious, but seriously, I do think that our antibacterial fetish in this country is detrimental to our well-being. In my experience, the most sickly people are the ones who use these antibacterial products the most, and while I don't want to falsely ascribe causality to this correlation, I do think this is a connection that warrants further investigation.

Anonymous said...

I am not a medical professional but as I understand it...

The theory of innoculation is to expose the subject to the infectant and vaccination is to expose the subject to a contaminant that is less dangerous than the actual virus.

Until pretty recent vaccinations were created from live viruses grown ('cultured') on animals. This was dangerous because the animals could mutate strains and other live bacteria and filth (contaminants) could be introduced due to the animals and their PETA terrible living conditions. Now almost all vaccines are produced from dead infectants on lab grown chicken egg embryos, so the sterility of the media is excellent and the infectant is quite dead=can't infect or mutate.

Innoculation is dangerous. I read that many more Gulf War vets have died from Gulf War Syndrome - a clean label for a plague - than died in the Gulf War. The experimental germ warfare innoculations they received should be tested on the Congress and their vultures, now. I don't think even the vultures stand a chance.

Don't trust your insurance company owned and trained doctors. They take classes in law...

Anonymous said...

I heard that 3x as many Viet Nam vets have committed suicide as died in Viet Nam.

Probably 100x more guys died in Viet Nam than in the Gulf War so please give this due respect.

They were my friends.

Gail said...

Hi Bill, Let me say that your show is the first thing that my husband and I watch on Friday night and we like you and the show very much. Thank you for pointing out so much of the hypocricy in our world.

But, I think you need an anatomy lesson. Last night you said that a woman was arrested for shaving her vagina while she was driving. It got a big laugh, and yes it was funny. I'm sure I'm not the only woman who noticed that shaving your vagina is immpossible. The arresting officer must also have been a man because apparently he doesn't know what a vagina is either. Since men don't have a vagina, let me explain using a part of the anatomy that a man does have - the ear. I'm hoping you know more about your ear than you do a vagina. That big flap that sticks out of the side of your head is called a pinna (what most people usually refer to as the ear). There is a canal that leads down to the eardrum. The ear canal is akin to the vagina - they're both internal. So you see Bill, hair may grow in some men's ear but it does not grow in the vagina. Do not mistake hair on the outside for hair on the inside. So next time, if you still don't know what a vagina is, just call it a Hoohah. It will still get a laugh, but at least you'll sound like you know something about women.

Socratic said...

Thanks, Bill, for being willing to question "common knowledge" on this topic (and many others!). There was an interesting article in The Atlantic magazine which was willing to ask the same questions as Bill Maher is asking.


One more thing, Bill - if you do read these comments (hopefully), I think many of your viewers would be interested to hear more of your views about "finally finding a health regimen that actually made me healthier and feel better". On your show, I recall you saying something along the lines that if you took an long flight, you didn't think you would be more likely to catch a cold because your immune system would be strong enough to ward off any infection. I'm sure many of us would be curious to hear more about what health regimen helps build the immune system and has made you healthier. Would you be willing to comment?


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Vaccines can prevent or ameliorate the effects of infection by many pathogens. There is strong evidence for the influenza vaccine

Anonymous said...

Bill you seem to have such a negative and sometimes hateful outlook on the Catholic church. Why? Maybe something happened in your past relating to the church. Maybe when you were a boy you were rapped by a priest.

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Your viewpoint on this topic is so close to mine I found myself nodding in agreement throughout the entire column. Thank you for sharing and getting the word out. My public school education didn't give me the tools to be an independent thinker and I can really appreciate when a person that can just come out and say what needs to be said. So I thank you for that.
I'd also like to respond to a comment someone made "And remember, nobody is forcing anyone to get vaccinated, as far as I know." Parents in the US are forced to immunize their children if they attend public schools. If they do not immunize, their children are removed from the school and the parent can be arrested for not educating their children. There's not much a parent can do about that if they don't have money for private school or time for home-school.

Don@Best Vegetarian Cookbooks said...

I don't think I have ever watched Bill Maher. I have heard that he can be very controversial. Great info.

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Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion
Thomas Jefferson, for instance, claimed "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" (p. 43). Benjamin Franklin said "Lighthouses are more useful than churches". A 1796 treaty signed by John Adams declares, "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" . Adams also said, "this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it" . Even conservative icon, Barry Goldwater, threatened to fight fundamentalists "every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans" .

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My wife who is an RN said by the time they get the vaccine out, the flu will be over. She was right. And then the town started calling people to have them get the shot long after flu season as they had all this vaccine and noon to use it. Millions wasted again!

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