tisdag 19 augusti 2008

Mazda vs Varuna as concepts

Dear Ron, Osred and friends

This seems highly likely.
The pre-Pagan divinities in Scandinavia (another set of Indo-European tribes with a likely common heritage with the Iranians and Indians) were also ABSTRACT but later replaced with the popular anthropomorphic divinities of folk religion. It seems the original divinities of pre-Pagan religion were tied to the forces of nature (the forces being worshipped, which should make sense in a nomadic pre-scientific society). Only with PERMANENT SETTLEMENT did the anthropomorphic divinties take root and become more popular. Including figures like Odin, Zeus, Jupiter and their equivalents in the Asian polytheisms.
In this sense, Mazda is actually a monotheistic concept with roots in pre-Pagan culture, whereas the other monotheisms have their roots in Pagan anthropomorphisized religion, usually it was the Sun-God who was separated and risen to the status of the ONE god (like Mithras in Mithraism, God/The Father in the Abrahamic faiths, Aton in Akhnaten's Egyptian monotheism etc).
While Zarathushtra attributes a "fatherhood" or a "parenthood" to Mazda in The Gathas, this should be seen metaphorically. We have no reason to believe that Mazda would have any anthropomorphic characters in itself (as I prefer to say, while Ron prefers "himself"). Since this was not the religious background which Zarathushra came from and saw himself "reform".


2008/8/19 zrenovators :

Ushta Osred and All

Asuras and Ahuras were the original aryan gods. They were abstract
incorporeal and invisible. Then there developed nature based gods
called daeva, perhaps imported from Dravidian or Elamite sources,
which were not abstract but rather represented anthropomorphically.

The cult of these grew in popularity and eventually surpassed that of
the Ahura, in India but not in Iran, which supports the theory that
Zarathushtra's doctrine of the ONE Ahura which he says in the Gathas
( Jafarey 's version) that he calls by a new name; found sympathetic
ears among ahuric worshipping Aryans and not so much among daeva
worshiping ones.

It does also give some support to Moulton's theory that
Zarathushtra's teaching might have been instrummental in the
separation of the Aryans.

In any case, it is extremely unlikely that there ever was a Mazda
cult among Aryans prior to Zarathushtra. Not only is there no god in
the polytheistic pantheon named the Wise One , but if Jafarey is
correct, Zarathushtra himself addresses God by a new name and that
new name MUST be Mazda since Ahura was already a well known name for

Moreover while in the polytheistic cult there was a difference in
kind between asuras or ahuras and Divas or Daevas, in the Gathas
Zarathushtra speaks only of daevas and only using the generic term.
Plus he uses the word daeva in a peculiar sense to mean only illusory
or false deities AND their followers. Thus the inference in the
Gathas its clear Zarathushtra considers all gods and entities but
Mazda Ahura illusory deities.

In fact Zarathushtra states (in Jafarey's translation) that all
others but mazda Ahura are 'mental repugnants'. In addition he calls
them "products of an aka manah" or bad mind

Ushta ve
Ronald G Delavega

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