LINGUIST List 4.35

Fri 22 Jan 1993

Qs: Maori NLP, German secondary pluperfects

Editor for this issue: <>


  1. , query
  2. , Secondary pluperfect in German

Message 1: query

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:19 +13query
From: <>
Subject: query

I'm trying to find out what research if any has been done on Maori
speech synthesis recognition or other computer-based language systems.
Also does anyone know of the existence of a Maori frequency word list or
other Maori word usage statistics?

Thanks in anticipation,

Message 2: Secondary pluperfect in German

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 14:00:29 +0Secondary pluperfect in German
From: <>
Subject: Secondary pluperfect in German

This is a QUERY to speakers and linguists of German.

I have been noticing for quite a while in my home dialect (Viennese German,
both "colloquial" and the sociolect called "Dialekt" in German) the rise of
what might be called "Secondary pluperfect" of the form: ich habe das
schon gesehen gehabt . This is a logical consequence of the loss of both
imperfect and pluperfect in Southern German, leaving as the only past tense
the perfect which is quite inconvenient if you want to express antecedent
action, especially in sentences beginning with "nachdem", e.g.: Nachdem
ich es gelesen gehabt habe, habe ich gleich geantwortet .
Now, I would like to know more about the following questions:

- What is the territory where these forms are used
- What is there stylistic value both for people using them and for people
not familiar with them - do the latter actually notice these forms when
used by speakers of German?
- What are the conditions of use?, cf.:
For me it is quite out to use the "secondary pluperfect" with the auxiliary
 sein e.g. * ich bin gegangen gewesen , unless a state may be meant as in:
ich bin eingeschlafen gewesen. (in such an interpretation it might be fine
even with gegangen , meaning weg).
Are there contexts favoring its appearance or is it a real substitute for
the pluperfect?
What is the phonostylistical register where these forms are acceptable?
- Has anybody collected data of the phenomenon? Has it been investigated?

Please direct your answers to
Ursula Doleschal
Institut fuer slawische Sprachen
WU Wien
Augasse 9
1090 Wien, Austria