Wednesday, February 23, 2005

Proof of the non existence of God

Before we can prove that God does not exist we have to define what God actually is, so we will define God as omniscient (all-knowing) and omnipotent (all-powerful). So to be God you must have both the attributes of being omniscient and omnipotent, so to prove the non-existence of God we must prove that God is either not all-knowing or not all-powerful.

We will first assume that God exists and try to prove that God is not all knowing. So if God knows everything then this includes knowing all that has happened in the past and all that will happen in the future and this means knowing what our actions will be before we actually do them. This means however that we cannot have free will over our actions because if God knows what we will do before we actually do it, then it will happen anyway and means we do not have any choice in the matter. This doesn't prove that God is not all-knowing but means that either our sense of having freewill is an illusion or God does not know everything and therefore is not God.

We will assume for now that everything that exists is contained within the universe, including God. This means that everything must follow the laws of the universe, including God. But if God is subject the laws of the universe it means that God can not be all-powerful because God's power will be limited by the laws of the universe. Now you could say that God is not part of the universe, so let's assume that there are things which exist out side of the universe, there are now two possibilities. 1: that these things and the universe are contained in something else which is bigger, or contained in something else which is limitless, but are still subject to some sort of laws. If this is the case then God's power will still be limited by the laws that govern these other places and so cannot exist. The 2nd case is if these things outside of the universe follow no laws, this means there will be no laws to limit Gods power, it also means however that if there are no laws outside of the universe then everything outside of the universe is random because without any rules an entity cannot interact with another entity or with itself (so anything can happen when these things interact with each other or themselves). For example let's say that God wants to create a planet outside of the universe but because there are no laws anything might happen, God could instead make a giant bowl of cold custard with tins of baked beans inside with out meaning to, or just by thinking God could cease to exist. So in the 2nd case God's power is not limited by physical laws but is instead powerless.

So if there exists laws then Gods power must be limited and subject to these laws and if there are no laws then God is powerless, either way God is not all powerful which means that it is impossible for God to exist, instead only a very powerful life-form can exist.


Blogger IWUBOY said...

From my studies of the scripture I believe God is not limited to the same parameters that creation is confined to. For one, He is omnipresent, meaning He is everywhere at all times, something even Satan can not do.
On the topic of freewill, God does know and did know everything that you have done and will do, but at the same time He is not holding your hand and controlling your mind to make you do what He wants. You have just as much right as anyone else to believe or not believe in Him. Otherwise you would not be questioning what you believe at this very moment. If God controlled everyone and He is a Holy God who can not sin, then would't He make it impossible for humans to sin? Just a thought.

6:36 pm  
Anonymous John said...

In order for God to function properly there still needs to be some rules that determine how God functions, even if they are internal rules. Everything that functions has some sort of rules either external or internal (rules from within that entity) that determine how it functions so it doesn't actually matter 'were' God is or if God is part of the universe, just that God functions.

10:20 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your theory still holds even if God is everywhere at all times and not limited by creation because there still must be either rules or no rules (it is impossible to have a situation otherwise)

2:41 pm  
Blogger His Servant said...

Well, I know a deep thought for shallow minds. What I know about God Is He works in the Spritual, a totally different realm than we live in or for that matter can grasp. Unless we our alowed a glimps into the spritual realm. we will only grasp the full understanding of God or how He works though prayer and Bible reading.If you do not do those things you will never know the self-exsisting one.the one who made the heavens and the earth, also made the very rules which you speak of he is not governed by them they our governed by them. I can give you scriptures to back up my truth. one proof that all see is nature its self. look outside and breath the air and tell me there is no God. One thought before I go, If you are going to live life like there is no Creator then you better be right, becuase things exsist whether we believe in them or not.

5:28 pm  
Anonymous none said...

with your argument on God seing the future and so we arent having free will. Just because he knows what we are going to do doesnt mean he forces us. Its just like having a really good friend, and your can predict their next move, even though your not forcing them to. god knows us all so well he knows what we will do, but he doesnt control it.

2:17 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


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5:18 pm  
Blogger Per Edman said...

there cannot be both free will and foreknowledge of future events based on free will.

If god knows I will turn left, I cannot turn right. Not because god controls which way I turn, but because he knows the future and knows I will turn left. There is no possibility then that I could possibly turn right, because that would prove god wrong, and god cannot be wrong. Right?

11:23 am  
Anonymous F.O.G said...

God knows what would happen if you turned right or if you turned left or even if you didnt turn and went straight into the tree infront of you!
It is difficult for non believers in God to perceive anything they cant physically prove/see for themselves but God or no God, do you not think that there is something beyond the limit of Your intelligence?

4:28 pm  
Blogger sajjad said...

you should first analyze the chances of one cell when there was no life on earth then what force created the such complex structures and if you calculate the probability of chances it will be 0 so kindly don't call your rubbish a prove it is just you ill mind thougts and don't publish such articles thanks

9:56 am  
Blogger sajjad said...

I would like to tell this same question about will and destiny was asked to Hazrat Ali (May Allah please with him) he said that...
the will and destiny are two same things but will gives a choice to don something and God makes it destiny.
For example that you have two chaises to do some thing work A, and B. so at the same time you can do Work A and Work B. God knows that if you do Work A what will be done will it be in profit or loss. and if you do so then what will happen. this is how you chose your destiny but God makes makes it on you that you chose.
But now every thing he has given you to do for example death. we can't run away with this. so please understand this. my intention as a Muslim is to correct you not to underestimate your thoughts thanks you very much

10:04 am  
Anonymous Anurag said...

Love is God...
God is love...

8:47 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"you should first analyze the chances of one cell when there was no life on earth...the probability of chances it will be 0"

Rats. I've given up the evangelical atheism, almost. And I wasn't going to post, I really wasn't. But now I can't help it.

The idea that a single celled animal sprang from nowhere is absolutely NOT the basis for an anti-creation argument, and no scientifically literate person would claim that it is. In order for natural selection to occur, (thus allowing for increasing complexity on a gradual and incremental scale between generations) it is only necessary to postulate a single MOLECULE which is capable of self-reproduction and the introduction of changes to that molecule which can also be reproduced. Exampes would be DNA and RNA - not the massive complex lengths of DNA which produce a person (or a virus, come to that) but much shorter chains which one could imagine forming in the 'primordial soup' of earth's early oceans... the odds of such a molecule forming via random molecules bumping into each other are themselves pretty low, but you have to remember that millions of years passed, billions of billions of molecules collided and that this allows us to accept the probable occurrence of very rare events. Natural selection then takes us from the simple replicating molecule to the 'single cell' in a long series of small incremental changes each of which is not vanishingly unlikely and which confer a survival and/or reproductive advantage on the individual this allowing it pass on the change to following 'generations'.

I really don't know why I am writing this, I'm sure no one is going to have an Atheistic Revelation (TM) based on it, but somehow I just have to keep plugging away.... God help me.

9:03 am  
Blogger rebootedlife said...

I need to share this with all of you, I think there is a message I need to share with the whole world.

Yesterday night, I spent hours praying. I prayed hard, I prayed with fervor. I got blisters on my lips from dehydration, the flesh of my knees tore, I was crying for God's Almighty mercy, I am a sinner, I don't deserve God's attention.

Then he came to me and he said:

"I am God, he who sees all, knows all, created all. He who knows no limit to mercy, he who knows not the limitations of time, for time is but a ruler that I don't even have to bend, for I am everywhere, all the time, forever, I have been one, and I have been many, and I am here to talk to you, Ruben Perez. I am here to set the truth straight once and for all, for all the time to come and all the time that has passed until now."

He continued:

"I am here to tell you that beginning now, at the end of tonight (June 8th 2010) I will have ceased to exist, and my power allows me to go even further, so I will have ceased to exist not only now, but also in the past, in fact, I decide now that I have never existed. AT ALL"

I am troubled, because now, through my fervor, I am the witness of the fact that God doesn't exist. I only hope it wasn't because of me. I guess God doesn't exist anymore, or well he never existed, and he never will. That's the word of the Lord.

God doesn't exist.

4:30 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here is much simpler proof:

It goes back to the old question, "Is God so powerful that he can create an object so heavy that he cannot lift it?"

First, we must again define God as the supreme being, all-powerful - he can do ANYTHING.

Now the proof.
1. Assume there is God; i.e. assume there exists a being who has, among other attributes, the ability to do ANYTHING.
2. Either He is able to create an object so heavy that he cannot lift it, or He cannot.

3a. Assume he is able.
4a. He cannot lift this object, therefore there is at least one thing he cannot do.
5a. This contradicts the original assumption of the existence of an all-powerful God.

3b. Assume he is not able to.
4b. He is not able to create this object therefore there is at least one thing he cannot do.
5b. This contradicts the original assumption of the existence of an all-powerful God.

So either God does not exist or He is not all-powerful. But all-powerfulness is a fundamental attribute for a supreme being.

Some people argue, "Well, He CAN create an object so heavy even he cannot lift it, but then he'll go right ahead lift it anyway."

Which is it? Can he lift it or can't he. It can't be both. You cannot have a statement and its negation both being true.

From any angle, assuming the existence of a supreme being leads to a contradiction.

God does not exist.

2:14 pm  
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8:40 am  
Anonymous Simple said...

Can a mortal being explain an immortal one Can a limited being explain an unlimited one. Science, time and math are all created by man to explain what he has seen or discovered. Therefore these things are already negligent in God's presence. Our language's can never explain God. The Rules we are bound to are only ours to be bound by. God cannot be limited by anything he created. He is bigger than anyone can think. The only insight to what God is like is the character he has replicated in us. The things that are eternal, like true love. If someone died for you... Instead of you... This is the kind of Love God IS. God said "I AM" therefore He IS.

12:17 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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12:19 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your argument was good until:

"The 2nd case is if these things outside of the universe follow no laws"

What if "these things" is the null set + God? In that case nothing you said after this makes sense since how can you create a planet in nothingness? Furthermore, "laws" generally govern interaction between objects, and if there is only one object, there is nothing to govern. It is also a little ridiculous to claim any kind of law can govern an omnipotent "God" or its actions.

The deeper problem I believe here is that "God" will be able to evade your proof because you don't have enough axioms. On the one hand you want laws to govern everything, but on the other, God has every power. There is a natural tension here that is difficult to resolve.

It's much easier to simply add the requirement that God be perfectly "good". Then it's a matter of a few lines to show he cannot exist using the (imprecise) English.

I would like to see a formal version of this as well (in first order).

You should also remember that any proof you produce will naturally have assumptions and likely will work only in a particular system.

It is terribly easy to dismiss such a proof if you work in another system!

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