Title: Buffalo Tiger
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00008078/00001
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Title: Buffalo Tiger
Series Title: Buffalo Tiger
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Bibliographic ID: UF00008078
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: University of Florida
Holding Location: University of Florida


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K: Today is August 27, 1998. This is Dr. Harry Kersey of Florida Atlantic University.

Today I am interviewing Mr. Buffalo Tiger as part of our on-going series of interviews

about his life. Mr. Tiger, you were saying that as a child you had some particular illnesses

that might have been the same as other children in the camps.

T: I did. I believe we learned with so many different kind of sickness we can get. I might as

well go ahead and tell it again, so you have it. We used to say it is only Indians can be

sick that way. We pick up major type of sickness. Could be any animal has a sickness.

Somehow we don't have to play with it; we don't have to touch; we don't have to be

close by. They [sickness] just stick to us because it's in the air. Sometimes little girls and

little boys get sick from that. The ones who can make medicine know exactly what causes

it because the way the child act. Sometimes they can tell looking in the eye. Sometimes

they see the hands moving. Sometimes they can see how they act when they sleeps. So

they know exactly what to do for that boy or girl that is sick. They always use their

medicine for that. They have to tell you what type of medicine they have to have to make

it for that particular sick boy or girl. Parents have to know that, too, because the man

who is going to make medicine will tell you, go get this particular tree, not the leaf, maybe

bark. For some particular tree you can only use the leaves. Maybe four or five different

type of roots or trees or plants or sometimes some not really plant, just something that

would help the children when they were sick. It is hard for me to explain to you because

it's like little mildew sometimes you would find.

K: Like moss or fungus?

T: Yes, something like fungus would be used as medicine for any type of sickness. So man

have to tell you or a woman can do that. Daddy, mamma or someone would go ahead and

look for it and get everything together and they make medicine for that particular sickness.

Child or boy would get well. That's what I did. The lady make medicine and I got better.

This is the way it is. Sometimes I get sick from the spiders when I was a kid.

K: From spider bites?

T: No, don't have to be bites. Spider you could be dreaming about it. You could be

dreaming maybe so many times [about] what type of spider. Then my brother got sick

from monkey. I was little boy, but my brother got sick and people quick made medicine.

They tell my mom and my daddy he got sick from monkey and you have to get that kind

of medicine. You have go out and find different type of plants. They made medicine for


K: He was not in contact with a real monkey?

T: No, you do not have to. The same goes for me. I didn't have to contact this type of

spider. I just got sick. When I got sick, I got fever and I just couldn't walk no more. I

was gonna die. Good thing this old lady take care of me, but she told me she was gonna

take care of me, I'm gonna get better, and I did. She make medicine for me. It's just so

many good medicine people can make the child get better. [But] only for major type of

sickness. Let's say today, cholesterol is too high. Maybe they can make that medicine for

that, too, but could. We call it white man sickness. Sugar diabetes is another

white man sickness. People used to tell us there was a time that [because of the] food we

eat and your life changing and you will be adopting the white man sickness and that

medicine not gonna work too good. So that's the way we are today. Years ago, Indian

medicine works good for us. When we were younger, we have to almost stay in line,

knowing we can get sick if go too far this way, or too far north, or too far west or

anything like that. We have to always stay in line. We was a little strict. We have to

learn that because today it's not like that. Years ago we were like that.

K: In other words, if you went outside the bounds of behavior, you could get sick.

T: Exactly. We have our clothes. Let's say my mother wash my clothes, put them out in sun

on a tree or some type of clothes hanger out in the saw grass area and let it dry. They

always tell us, you bring your clothes in before sundown. After sundown, a lot of fog

coming down from the sky with a lot of sickness. It'll get into your clothes and then after

you wear it, you get sick. So always we have to take our clothes in before sundown when

I was growing up. Those are the kind of things I have to learn.

K: I know in many Indian tribes there was a belief that if you killed an animal, as in hunting

for food, that you almost apologized to the animal for killing it and taking its spirit. After

the white man came and got Indians involved in mass hunting and over killing of the

animal population, the Indians thought a lot of the bad things that happened to them, [for

example] the diseases that came, the loss of their land, the loss of their territory, might

have been due to the fact that they had lost respect for the spirits of the animals. Was

there anything like that among the Miccosukeee when you went out to hunt or fish? Did

you had to show respect in some way and if you did not do that, it might lead to illness?

T: Not exactly like that, but we do have almost the same thing about the little things. When

we growing up, we're not supposed to step on the spider, or little things. We're not

supposed to kick anything around smaller than us. It does not say that's gonna make us

sick, but we have to respect that little [animal]. They say bigger ones come along, attack

you one day, if you're not respecting little things. So you have to respect, particularly

little ones. Let's say a little spider walk around here, and I just go beat him up, play with

him and kill him. IfI do that, I'm not supposed to and they teach you how to sing after

you act like that, so you won't do that no more. They used to be pretty strict with that,

too, so we have to learn how to sing for the little thing you kill.

K: That would not necessarily apply, for example, to an alligator or an otter if you were

hunting food or for trading for skins?

T: No. The only thing we have to learn, don't kill unless you have to for food. Don't kill

many, many things. You just kill enough for the family or your friends in the village. But

I think you're right when we go in for making money. We are like other people. We

killed so many, and forget about it, but we not supposed to forget about. It seems to be

like we were adopting somebody else's footsteps.

K: I know that particularly among the Plains Indian tribes, they felt the loss of the buffalo

from the over hunting. Ecologists can say you just over hunted the buffalo, but a lot of

them say well, we also showed disrespect for the spirit of the buffalo. The buffalo had

sustained us for hundreds of years, and now suddenly we were not just hunting them for

the food that we needed, but we were hunting them for their hides to sell to other people.

The same was true with the beaver or with the deer up in the southern states. That is

interesting that you have that variation on it, that it applied to the [little things]. You said

you had an older sister who died very young. Was there a lot of death among the children

in the camps? Do you remember that as being a problem?

T: No, I had never see much of that when I was growing up. I know my grandfather died

and he was pretty old when he died. Later, my grandmother died. No one knows what

killed her. My mother died from sugar diabetes. She was always sick like that. She

would black out. I always thought sugar killed her [grandmother]. As far as young

people, I have not seen young girl or young boy dying the way they are today. Just older

folks I remember. But we lived longer, too. You know what it seems to be, I hate to say

this and I'm not criticizing my people, but food we eating today tastes good and easy to

get. Our people eating and they enjoy themselves eating, and they don't care about

anything but food that tastes good and easy to get. That seems to be bringing in so many

kinds of sickness. The food they eat [is] greasy, so maybe today they get heart attack, but

we never had it before. So many things we never had sick before, we start getting. We

used to call it the white man's sickness. Because [ofJ the food we eat, we were told can

happen. Years ago we eat our food, like fish, turtle, some banana, cornbread, lots of

boiled potatoes. Things like that supposed to be Indian food. That's what we used to eat.

That's why we down here. We find a good place to find food. Now, we eating too much

other type of food and I believe it's harmful for my people.

K: Let me go back for just a minute where we were talking earlier about these little sewing

machines. You said you saw the small hand cranked machines in the camp. Do you

remember the kinds of things that they made with them?

T: In my life, often my people didn't have many materials. We used the buckskin [or] any

type of skins we could find. Ladies used to do buckskin, too, but sometimes it cannot

wear buckskin. You have to use the but after that they get materials, they

sewing and put things together. Today they have beautiful clothes, but years ago it's not

like that. They were just learning how to use sewing machines and they cut out materials,

different colors. All Indians, my people, always seem to like colors and colorful clothes.

So we did that and I remember seeing my grandmother and my folks, particularly old

ones, that keep their sewing machines, the old fashioned type of sewing machines. They

used to make a lot of noise when you crank them around and around. You know your

mother's making something then, you can hear that. My grandmother used to have them.

All my old folks used to have them. They [sewing machines] small; they have no wood

around it. No frame, nothing like that except the metal. The sewing machines are small,

but they used cloth and thread and put things together. It's better than nothing. Years

ago they used to use, not snake bone but a type offish bone. A lot of times they use

animal and little things inside.

K: Like the tendon.

T: Right, they used to use a lot of them. Not in humans, but in animals, particularly deer.

They have to use deer hides, sliced thin and wetted. But sewing machines did better work

and do things faster.

K: So your mother made all of your clothes when you were a child?

T: No. My mother had a sewing machine when I was born. They already got sewing

machine. My grandmother, I'm sure she has used the other type, old fashioned kind, not

machine, by hand.

K: But your mother, with her machine, made all of your clothing?

T: Right. But I don't have any colorful clothing [like we] wore today. Ours was just

different colors put together, like a little skirt we wear.

K: You wore the long shirt when you were a child. How about taking care of the clothing?

Living in a chickee, you do not have much storage space. Where did you keep your


T: Well, we don't have to worry about having too many clothes. If you lucky, you have

maybe three shirts and three skirts have to be washed often. But when we growing up,

we're so different in those days and I have forgot about a lot of it. We have to take care

of our own clothes and you have to take a bath almost all the time, particularly us. We

lived around the water and our mom would make us wash all the time and sometimes

make us wash our own clothes.

K: The children washed their own clothes?

T: Yes. We do that. Then we wash our dishes after eating food, out in the glades water, you

could do that. That was part of our job, take care of your dishes, take care of your

clothes. But sometimes your mother wash it for you, but more likely you have to do it

more. Everything is done. If you're old enough, you have to help your daddy, your

mama. You're part of the family; you all help each other. You don't expect your mama's

gonna do it, or your daddy's gonna do it. You glad to help and that's what the little boys

learn. The sisters help mama, help to cook food, help look after the village, food be ready,

that type[ of thing]. And pound corn and help plant corn. We all together to do those kind

of things. Daddy, mamma, children, all of us used to do that. I'm getting off track, but I

think you should know that.

K: In pounding the corn, what was the [Creek word]? Was that what they put the corn in?

T: [Creek word]? The [Creek word] is a big stick, weighed maybe about thirty pounds and

maybe five, six foot tall. You know the [creek word]? The little round thing that stand on

the ground and have a big hole inside. We put corn in there and you pounded it. You

pound it and pound it and you can make grits, at same time you get a lot of cornmeal out


K: You can either pound the corn that way or buy the grits at the store?

T: In those days, we didn't buy corn. We have everything out there. We do it ourselves.

Buying stuff, that's come in recently, not when my childhood. We have all the corn we

need. They roast the corn, that's another way they do it. They pound it, too. They can

make sofkee and the other type of corn. They grind them and use a different way to make

sofkee, cornbread and sometimes we make like coffee. But that you don't have to grind

them, you just roast it. It look like burn up corn, then people boil it and it look like


K: It was made from the corn?

T: Yes.

K: You could boil it. You could roast it. You could make it into a kind of tea or you could

do the sofkee.

T: We talking about the corn, that thing the Breathmaker have say to us, we must plant corn,

we must plant food yearly. Because it will be the food and that should never die. That's

the reason we have a Green Corn Dance. Everything tied together. The food, we're

supposed to plant them every year when the time comes. And not just daddy. Son,

daughter and wife all pitch in [doing] all different things. That makes our family together,

because helping one another.

K: I know you have talked about this in different tapes, but again as I have said, I have been

reading a lot lately about the Creek people and their belief and the origination of the Green

Corn Dance was up in the Creek nation. They felt that there are always tensions between

the upper world and the lower world and Breathmaker gave them the way to reduce those

tensions and to keep balance. Is this, in general, a belief that has stayed on with the

Miccosukee? Like the Christian God, Breathmaker really gave all the commandments

and directions on how to keep your life in balance? Is that a fair overstatement?

T: It's like that. I've gone to church, different type of church, trying to find what you believe

and what other people believe. Even I have gone to a Baptist church to see what they do.

But what I learned in my life, in my Breathmaker, the way they teach it, they don't teach

some things, what they teach in the churches and all that. We learn it in entirely different

ways. But that always has been my heart and my life, so even though I believe what the

Christian life, like what the Baptist might say, I see it's not really fit in my life, but I do

respect that. It seems to be a good way to feel. You believe in something, I believe in

something. You want to use mine or I want to use yours. Even today, I have talked to

my wife often, because she Spanish and she do different ways, [and] expression [in] her

life. She's Catholic and she have to believe my ways and I believe her ways. If I don't

have that, I probably might not be here. Because I might be a drunkard, not believe in

myself and I'd be doing so many wrong things, but I do believe that and when I was

learning, when I was younger, I learned pretty strong and people do respect that. It's not

just something people tell you, just take it. You just grow up in it. It's like your Christian

life; you grew up in it.

K: Going back, for example, to the ten commandments in the Christian theology, these are

general directions, the first part of them, on man's relationship with his neighbor. In other

words, man to God. The second half of the ten commandments are pretty much on man's

relations with his fellow man, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife,

so they are sort of divided, man to a greater power and man to man. Does the

Breathmaker cover all of these, like your relationship between the Indian and the Maker of

Breath and also Indian to Indian?

T: Yes. Very few words, though. It's not as many words as you people believe in your

Christian lives. Very few, meaning so much. I hope you understand, Indian people, years

ago, they have very few words on different things. We don't have many words like other

people have. Just too many words mean nothing now. You can see that. With us, we

have very few words. If you say Breathmaker, it's word. You know what that is.

Breathmaker's work--it's everything. Somebody might say, don't forget. That means if

you're doing something wrong here, don't do it. Therefore we have to respect that.

That's what we learning. Today a lot of those things are not used. That's what we need

to start teaching our young people. Even though they go to school, they probably believe

in something else, but they need to know that they have to respect.

K: From our conversations over the years, I get the idea that in our world, children learn and

they read the commandments or whatever their particular religion is, and there is a formal

religious instruction. But in the Indian world, it is not as formal, but you just learn these

things by living, from your parents, from the community. It is almost instinctive. You do

not do these things, and you do not say specifically it is because of theology, but you just

do not do them because that is the way Indians live their lives. These are sort of inferred

commands rather than specific to you.

T: I heard that [from] so many younger of my people. Even something on a piece of paper

with writing, they learn that in school. We can see that in writing. We have to say, those

are the kind of things that [are] not written, you have to learn from the other elder people

who always know that and they teach you. You have to ask to learn and they'll be happy

to teach you. That's what we have to do. You have to learn. You can't just live like

that. I don't care what people say to me, I know what I know. That's the way my

brothers and other people are. Those people not knowing anything. They can pick up a

piece of paper and tell you this is the way it is. That's the way it is for you, but it's not the

way it is for me. We're talking about Breathmaker's work. Those the kind of things I

hope people would understand it. Like we talk about this hurricane out there somewhere.

Those are the kind of things Breathmaker have made. It's a part of nature. Everything

nature. We must learn that because it's life. It's not the human like you and I, but even a

tree is life. Those trees gonna die, just like us and those tree has a heart like us. It does

not have a blood, but a life. Everything's life is on this earth. It's Breathmaker's planet

and they have plant us here with it. Like it or not, that's the way we are. These white

skinned people come from another island, [Creek word]. White people, red skinned people

have come from that island, but we're not talking about white skinned people too much.

Because we only know ourselves, what we learning from this earth. There's a little piece

in there that say we did have this Breathmaker try to test us. That's what they say to us.

The white people tell us. The Indian we take a paper, Breathmaker say, try

and live with this piece of paper. Try. We tried it and we tried it and we tried it and we

just can't live with it. We just don't respect the piece of paper. So he took it back. He

took it back and they have given to black skin people, they're not the only So

white skinned happened to be there, to give it to them. Then white skinned people took it,

read it, work with and live with it well. They know how to build with it. They know how

to do things with it. They live good with it. Continually doing things. Then Breathmaker

have say to us, you not belong with the paper. You not able to live with it. You live with

by yourself. You live with nature. Now I'm gonna send you back here with nature. So

he sent us back here with nature, all the trees, like we used to live out in the glades. It

might be entirely different places, entirely different scenery, but it's nature. So we go back

and we really work. So they say, you guys live with nature, you belong there. You will

never have anything. People making bombs, all different things. You've got enough of

that. You guys live in peace and with nature, that's where you belong. So you will wear

buckskin, you will use a bow and arrow and hunt foods you might find. Meantime, white

skin people can take care of our paper, work with it and build cities. Then blacks, just like

us, not doing so well, so they have to do looking for work. We usually do work for other

people. That's what the kind of life we might be facing for our lives.

K: This story that you just told me, this point of view, is this something that you learned as a

youngster, or something that just evolved over time? In other words, did someone say

these things to you about Breathmaker and the relationship of Breathmaker and paper, or

is this just general knowledge?

T: No. Something have contact us. I can't tell you what it would be. Breathmaker, I have

say so many times, have contact us and let us know you must do this and do this. Not

many, just some things important. We must kept that and we stay with that. Then, one

day I will return to see if you're doing OK or not. One day I will return. He didn't say,

I'm gonna come back and see you. The way the elder pointed out to us, it's not going to

be he, or we don't know, but something's gonna come. Big hurricane or some big noise

or something's gonna come by and let us know it's his work. Come by and see us. You

must wait for me. So that's what our people know and they always believe--something's

gonna happen some day soon and they want to make sure we won't be something else.

When they put us on this earth, I told you in making Mother Earth how they did it, with

life it seems to be beginning. We're not even life. He made us life. Nobody ever told

me, I don't think anybody ever say, who's telling us this. They just say, Breathmaker is

the one who make everything for you. Make for us. Then they tell us what to do and

how to think.

K: The elders did this?

T: They have never say, we're gonna conquer the world. Not for us. Didn't say, we're

gonna build the bomb. We not going to be stronger country--with us I'm talking about us

Indian people. We are the Breathmaker's people, not God, but Breathmaker's people so

we have to love the nature, try to hang onto nature. Don't let the nature die. That's what

we're here for.

K: So it's something that is just understood and passed on.

T: Right.

K: Are they doing that with the younger children today?

T: We have tried to do that and some of them doing well. I believe some young boys start

interest in learning more, making medicine, even though things look bad, look like

someone still care and want to carry it on. We trying to encourage more.

K: How many medicine men are there still in the tribe?

T: I hate to talking about that. What I thought is not really there, but as far as the medicine

men, like Ingraham Billie and Josie Billie, those people used to be good ones. You can

tell it's him. We can't do that today, even though they say they are, but they

understood the way they do things. I don't think it's medicine's fault. I don't think it's

Indian people's fault, except individuals see, how they feel, and try to take care of

medicine at same time, but not have a business on the other hand. So you cannot mix with

that. You're not supposed to.

K: I always have been under the impression that it takes someone like Josie Billie or

Ingraham Billie. They certainly were two of the best known, and Frank Shore up at

Brighton and Billy Smith, and a few others. The people, though, acknowledged them.

There was no question that [they were] medicine men. I do not know everyone in the

tribe, obviously, but I do not know of anyone today that everyone would say, he is a

medicine man, without some reservation.

T: I hate to say that, but even though this people might be whoever,

[unintelligible], Josie Billie, Ingraham Billie, whoever, but I think a lot of them

was not behaving like old time real medicine people.

K: Taking it seriously or doing it full time.

T: Right. Years ago, Ingraham Billie used to call some of the people from Lake Okeechobee,

like They used to come down, we'd have little meetings. Those people were

talking and you can understand by talking about some things, what they believe in. When

you heard that, it make you feel good. Because they have not attacking no one. They

never attack no one. They just talking about, one day maybe nobody wants to come to

our medicine, but this is what we must do. We have to do certain things and be there,

regardless [if] people come to you or not. That's what we have to learn. We heard them

say that. They believe in that strong. Those the kind of words I like to hear from some

medicine man if we have it. That's not the way it is now. I hope maybe it's not too late.

Maybe some younger person could grow up to be a medicine man and believe like old

timers believe. Those the, kind of things that kept our health and strength for us. If we

don't have that, we fall apart. We get sickly and then die. That's what medicine's all

about. That's our strength.

K: Let me stop the tape for now.

K: You were saying you did meet with Castro [Fidel Castro, premier of Cuba, 1959-present],


T: We did meet Castro. I think it was a place to do different things. We don't see him much,

except one time he makes little speech. About two, three Castro there. It's hard to tell

which one's real Castro.

K: They had doubles for him?

T: It looked like it. It's pretty hard to tell which one. He's big and he say hello to us and

what type and that kind of thing. I think they make a lot of pictures there, too, but I don't

have it. Here again, it looked like it's planned and everything's set up and you go in there.

You just go in there and surprised look like, come and go quickly. That's what he was

doing. I remember the things he have say. He said, I guess, because the interpreters say,

that we are your friends and we're gonna help you all we can. He's gonna promise to us,

if we have a hard time living here in this country in the United States, our homeland, it's

too hard to live, then Cuba is open for us anytime.

K: So he made you a direct offer?

T: Yes, but through interpreters. But that's the only thing I remember [when] we really

faced him. The other times, I believe the next day, he made a speech for one whole

afternoon. We have to go way high, really high up in there to see the people. So many


K: This was in a stadium?

T: Not stadium. I guess so, it's so high. He's up there with his group and he made speech

from there and we were guests, so we were there. My God, you get thirsty. Hot sun, hot

day, by God. Anyhow, everything went OK. We come down and went back to hotel and

rest. Well, I don't see how he can talk that long.

K: He still does.

T: Yeah.

K: How many days were you there total?

T: I believe, business wise, we were there about three days. All together it will be about four

days. Let me tell you, we had a lot Americans there, newspapers. One newspaper

[reporter] from here, the Miami Herald, he went with us. He's a friend. He wants to go,

so we took him. He took some pictures.

K: Is this Reno [Jane Wood Reno, reporter for Miami News, friend of Miccosukees, and

mother of Janet Reno, attorney general of United States, Clinton administration]?

T: Reno's son. Jerry Reno. I think she's got two sons. One of the sons working for the

Miami Herald. When he gets back, he put us on front page. Don't take long, I have

phone calls. That's when the state calling me, talk to me. We have a reservation and you

know we're gonna work things out and you're not gonna go back no more. Course, I

can't say anything then.

K: Was this the state that called you?

T: The state called.

K: Was this Max Denton [Max Denton, Florida Commissioner of Indian Affairs, 1956-?]?

T: Yes. Max Denton called first. And he promised me there was gonna be a reservation set

up to what we wanted and that kind of thing. I told him we would get together with that.

Same afternoon I have call from Washington. They promise me not to go back and not to

talk to those people again and they're gonna come down and work with us. This

particular time, I believe, I don't know how happened, but I can remember something has

happened. But we're not so close to Morton Silver [attorney for Miccosukee tribe] at this

particular time. Because when I get call, they're calling me, talking to me. I told them yes,

we'd be happy to talk to them, so we're gonna have a representative down. He's going to

investigate your situation and stay down here in Morton Silver's group and all that. He

did that. Reginald Miller, [Reginald Miller, United States Bureau of Indian Affairs

specialist and Menominee Indian] he's the guy come down investigating the situation.

Miller qualified the people would work with you, the but we have to have

elections. So he spend maybe about a month investigating and checking back and forth all

the time. But he want to get with Morton Silver a lot of the time so he can find whatever

it is he had illegally. I think those kind of things [were] investigated then. They indicated

that the majority of our people look like we are trying to do right things to be recognized

because we have the materials. What we trying to do when we move the Miccosukee

headquarters to Okeechobee. When we try to move that, we try to have election. Whole

majority would go forward or oppose it. I had that. So they checked that and said you

people are trying to do right for that.

K: This is when they were trying to change the road and the canal?

T: Right. So they used that. That's what they trying to find from them, too, over there.

Morton Silver hide it or he didn't want it or maybe he didn't have it. I don't know.

That's why we started talking to federal people at the time. It's not just clean cut. It

seems to be louder, back and forth. But, we never have a problem with them because, as I

say, Morton Silver was always just opposite sides instead of trying to work this out. We

were talking about that so many times, we can just work together and then just go ahead

and go through the whole thing, but it not happen that way. By this time, Mrs. Madigan

[La Verne Madigan, writer for Association of American Indian Affairs newsletter] been

talking to us and Mr. and all that behind us now. Then some of the Washington

staff kind of behind us and the whole idea now. Even Seminole tribes change

their mind. Before they just don't say anything. They don't want us to be a part of that

and all that. Now, everything turns. That's why some of the member of the Seminole

tribe used to laugh. You know who those people were in office. They talking about

superintendent of the office, always say those people down there, they're something else.

Now, they telling us, you better work with them, you better be good to them. That's what

they telling us now, that's what the fellow Seminole tribe members say to me. In other

words, you have to work with them, recognize them. You supposed to you.

K: Just before you got your recognition as a tribe, that is the point which Morton Silver

seemed to have moved away and was trying to put up an opposition group.

T: He sure did. Before that, he started to. Even when the investigation take place, I think he

just trying to act like we're not anything. Then the investigation shows we are

somebody. It goes on and on and on until we have elections. Even then, they're kind of

hard on us.

K: Who was kind of hard on you?

T: The Morton Silvers.

K: OK, the opposition?

T: The opposition, yes. But Seminole Tribe's OK. They're OK then.

K: This is just the other group of Miccosukees that were now with Silver. What happened?

Did they just sort of fade away then?

T: I think some of the good people, knowing it was mistake. As I say, we should be together

regardless, but it not happen. They just walk away, wanted to be independent. It's easy;

forget it. I'm not gonna belong to the tribe or anything like that, I'm gonna go by myself.

Look like some people live up there, you talking about while ago. That can happen. I

think what was influencing some of the people was Morton Silver's hoping somehow that

things works the way he wants to see it work.

K: Well, you are taking me right where I want to be, to be the point where the tribe gets its

constitution and bylaws. When we do another tape, I want to pick up there, at the time of

the first election and the working together constitution. That is when Rex Glenn comes


T: Right, after this is settled.

K: So this is a good stopping point for this tape and this gives me enough to work with until

we get the others. Thank you.

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