Interview With Senators Ensign, Casey
BLITZER: This is LATE EDITION, the last word in Sunday talk.</s>OBAMA: We cannot simply stand by and watch this industry collapse.</s>BLITZER: The Senate refuses to rescue U.S. automakers. We'll discuss why and what's next for the big three with Democratic Senator Bob Casey and Republican Senator John Ensign. What's at stake for the industry's frontline workers? United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger joins us for an interview.</s>PATRICK FITZGERALD, U.S. ATTORNEY: Governor Blagojevich has been arrested in the middle of what we can only describe as a political corruption crime spree.</s>BLITZER: Illinois's governor accused of putting Barack Obama's Senate seat up for sale. Will the scandal tarnish the president-elect and his close allies? Insight from three of the best political team on television. LATE EDITION's second hour begins right now.</s>BLITZER: The Bush administration appears to be the sole life line right now for the big U.S. automakers with a plan to try to rescue Detroit. That plan fell apart in the U.S. Senate late in the week. But what is happening right now? Where do we go from here? Here to talk about what went wrong, what's next, two key members in the United States Senate. Joining us from New York, the Pennsylvania Democratic Senator Bob Casey. He supported the automakers' loan bill. And joining us in Las Vegas, Nevada, the Republican Senator John Ensign. He opposed the measure. Senators, thanks very much for coming in. Senator Ensign, let me start with you. Were you at that luncheon where the vice president, Dick Cheney, came up, met with Republican senators and appealed to them to vote for this rescue plan and warn that if you don't it would be, quote, "Herbert Hoover time again?" Were you there?</s>ENSIGN: I was there. And actually, Josh Bolten, the president's chief of staff, is the one who made the presentation. And frankly, the more that they seemed to talk, the less support there was for the bailout bill. At the end of day, I think that a lot of us were very, very concerned about the jobs in the United States and the economy in the United States. We just had a different way of helping the auto companies. I believe strongly that the auto companies need to be helped in a way where they'll come out stronger on the other end, more vibrant and be able to compete with the Japanese and the German auto manufacturers in the United States. And the bill that was before the Congress, I do not believe that that bill would have made sure that the auto companies came out stronger on the other end.</s>BLITZER: Josh Bolten may have made that presentation, but did the vice president use that phrase "Herbert Hoover time" based on your recollection, Senator Ensign?</s>ENSIGN: I don't remember exactly what the vice president said. He comes to our lunches every Tuesday. Very rarely ever speaks. But this last Tuesday, he did speak, and it -- you know, he was appealing for the plan that the president and the Democrats had put together. But it was frankly just -- it wasn't something that most of us believed would help the automakers come out successful on the other end. And that's really the bottom line, is how are we going to help the U.S. auto manufacturers come out and be more competitive when they come out of this economic crisis that we're in today?</s>BLITZER: And we did hear from Senator Bob Corker, Senator Casey. He's a Republican from Tennessee. He was negotiating, trying to come up with some sort of compromise. He said this on Friday at a press conference, explaining why it collapsed in the end. Listen to this.</s>CORKER: My prediction is that, had we agreed on a date, any date that's reasonable, I think last night it would have passed the Senate by 90 votes.</s>BLITZER: He's referring to a date certain when the UAW, the United Auto Workers, should have agreed to bring their wages in line with the so-called foreign transplants -- Toyota, Nissan, Honda -- that have plants in the United States, mostly in the south. Because they refused to do that, to move up their concessions from 2011, the deal collapsed. You want to respond to that, Senator Casey?</s>CASEY: Well, Wolf, I think to a large extent there's been a lot of scapegoating here. In other words, the line from the other side has been that, because -- because we didn't get 60 votes from the Senate, that was the fault of working men and women. That's ridiculous. They've provided all kinds of concessions the last couple of years, cut their retiree health care costs by 50 percent in the last few years, made concessions on wages, and were ready to do more. The problem here was, in my judgment, was the other side was determined to stop this for whatever reason and it's really a question of whether or not we're going to continue an industry in America which is the backbone of manufacturing and keep the jobs. In Pennsylvania, for example, we have 120,000 jobs in dealerships and in suppliers. This is a major hit to our economy if the Treasury Department doesn't take the right steps, take executive action for December and January, get us to the end of January, and then we can begin to implement a long-term strategy. And remember, the statute that we would have passed focused on efficiency, focused on competitiveness, and also focused on providing opportunities to keep this industry viable to protect jobs especially at a time when we've just lost over 500,000 jobs in November.</s>BLITZER: Would you have supported it, Senator Ensign, if it would have had a date certain to bring the wages for UAW workers in line with the non-union workers?</s>ENSIGN: I'm not sure that I would have supported that simply because I don't think there were experts in the U.S. Senate to determine what wages should be paid. I don't think that we're experts to determine what the level of debt that the companies should have. I actually had a plan, Richard Shelby and I drafted a plan that would have provided what's called debtor-in-possession financing, this financing for chapter 11 reorganization, because I believe that if the auto companies, for instance, General Motors, if it would have gone into chapter 11 to reorganize, it could have come out in a much stronger way. And in chapter 11 bankruptcy, you have the experts to know what kind of wage concessions should be made by labor, what kind of concessions should be made by the people who hold the debt, whether it's the bondholders or the bank debt or where ever the other creditors are. It could have brought everybody to the table outside of politics. The whole process of bringing it into politics I think is very, very dangerous. It sets dangerous precedents for other industries. And now that the president is going to open up what's called the TARP funds, I think that's another dangerous precedent because we're going to have every other industry in America lining up and saying, hey, we need a bailout. You bailed out the auto industry. Why don't you bail us out?</s>BLITZER: Let's talk about that. Senator Casey, I want you to respond, but I want to explain to our viewers what the TARP funds are. Those are the $700 billion that Congress approved to help the financial sector, the ailing banks and the investment houses get through -- the first $350 billion is about to be used. There may be $15 billion left without additional congressional authorization. It's now up to the White House to go ahead and make that money available. What do you think the president of the United States is going to do?</s>CASEY: Well, I'm confident, Wolf, that the administration will come forward with support here. And, look, I was in favor of using the troubled asset relief program, so-called TARP funds, directly. I think it makes an awful lot of sense. The statute is very broad in terms of institutions being helped. And one of the reasons we passed that legislation against all kinds of public opposition was to make sure that in certain circumstances like this when you have an industry like the auto industry, which is the backbone of our economy, this isn't like the airlines where people -- where they can go into bankruptcy and people will still buy a ticket. This is the second largest purchase most people will make. Ninety percent of Americans get credit -- have to obtain credit when they go to buy a car. There's no way in my judgment that you could keep this industry viable and competitive if you went into a bankruptcy situation. But just to respond also to what John said, I think we have a basic disagreement on what the statute would have resulted in. The statute had the president appointing a person, a designee, who could have access to all kinds of expertise within and outside of the federal government. It could have worked. That designee had a lot of power to say to the auto companies if you don't have a plan in place by March 31st, you're not getting any more help, even if you're not implementing the changes you wouldn't get more help. So it had a lot of accountability, a lot of taxpayer protection. And if we had passed this and given help for December and January, we could get back to some other fundamental problems like foreclosures, which are a big problem in Pennsylvania as well as in John's home state of Nevada.</s>BLITZER: Huge problem. But what about the argument that if the U.S. Treasury can spend billions, hundreds of billions of dollars bailing out whether it's Citigroup or Bear Stearns or Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, AIG, the huge insurance company, why not spend $14 billion or $15 billion right now to bail out at least two of the big three automakers?</s>CASEY: I agree. Wolf, I agree with that.</s>BLITZER: No, I want to ask Senator Ensign.</s>CASEY: OK.</s>ENSIGN: Well the TARP funds, that $700 billion, was for the financial industry of the United States because everybody uses the financial industries, whether you're doing auto loans, whether you're doing student loans, home loans or whatever. It is the responsibility of the federal government to make sure that we basically have a stable financial system, a money supply, because the money is the medium of exchange that we do commerce in the United States.</s>ENSIGN: So that's a constitutional responsibility that we have.</s>BLITZER: All right, but listen to this, Senator.</s>ENSIGN: But when we start getting... Senator Ensign -- Senator Ensign, listen to what Carlos Gutierrez -- he's the Republican commerce secretary; he works for President Bush -- this is what he told me, on Wednesday, when he was in "The Situation Room." Listen to Carlos Gutierrez.</s>SECRETARY OF COMMERCE CARLOS GUTIERREZ: If they run out of money, it becomes a collapse. It becomes a total disaster, hundreds of thousands of jobs. That's very different than saying, let's go through March 31st, give them time; if we're not pleased with their restructuring plan, then they can do a planned Chapter 11. This is not a planned Chapter 11. This would be a disaster.</s>BLITZER: All right. He's warning of a disaster if you don't come up with some sort of short-term bridge loan, as they call it, to help Chrysler and</s>GM. ENSIGN: Listen...</s>BLITZER: Those are strong words.</s>ENSIGN: Yes, I actually -- I actually agree that the federal government could do that bridge loan, but that bridge loan could be done in Chapter 11 reorganization. That's the difference. And in Chapter 11 reorganizations, you have the experts; you can make sure that it's taken outside of politics. We could guarantee the warranties, which the auto industry has said, nobody will buy our cars if we're in Chapter 11. The federal government could guarantee the warranties to make sure that people felt secure, if they bought a car, that the warranties would be backed up. That's where you would take it outside of politics. To keep it -- to have some kind of auto czar, it's still going to be a puppet of the president. There are still going to be influences on politics. And we need to take these types of things out of politics, outside of Republican needs or Democrat needs or Democrat wants -- whatever it is, we need to take it outside of politics and get back to the fundamentals of business in the United States.</s>BLITZER: Let me let Senator Casey respond. Go ahead.</s>CASEY: Well, Wolf, look, I believe we needed to take action here, and I think the Senate missed an opportunity. And I hope that the administration -- and I'm confident they will -- but I think they must come through now and provide help from here to there, meaning get GM, especially GM, through December and January. And then, with the new administration, we can put in a longer strategic approach to this. But the problem, right now, is that, if GM bails this month, there's no way to untangle that; there's no way to recover from that. So I think we -- the Treasury Department should take action, invest a little bit now, to save an industry and to save jobs. Because our economy, right now, is in a tailspin. We can't afford to lose hundreds of thousands of jobs in the next several weeks, which is what would happen if one of these goes down.</s>BLITZER: Senator Casey, Senator Ensign, we've got to leave it right there. Senators, thanks very much for coming in.</s>ENSIGN: Thank you.</s>CASEY: Thank you, Wolf.</s>BLITZER: And up next, we'll get the response from organized labor. The United Auto Workers president, Ron Gettelfinger -- he's standing by, live. He'll respond to Republican charges that his union is to blame for much of the auto industry's problems. Ron Gettelfinger, from Detroit, right after this.