What Happened to Trayvon Martin?
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live Sanford, Florida. A 17-year-old heads home to his dad`s condo, gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch. As of tonight, no arrests. With protests going on at this hour all around the country, big controversy about what we`ve learned from the 911 calls. I`ve listened to the calls, and I don`t need a NASA enhancement. I know what I hear. We have the calls. We`re going to play them for you. Also, in the last hours, reports out of Orlando that the 17-year-old punched Zimmerman, then climbed onto Zimmerman, slamming his head into the sidewalk. Is that true? Bombshell tonight. With a $10,000 reward for the shooter`s capture and Trayvon`s family in mourning, tonight still no arrest. With claims of self-defense surfacing, tonight you hear the evidence.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police, I just heard a shot right behind my house.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s dead</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trayvon Martin`s death, the teen gunned down by a neighborhood watchman.</s>GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH CAPTAIN: Something`s wrong with him. Yes, he`s coming to check me out. He`s got something in his hands.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trayvon Martin had a bag of Skittles.</s>GRACE: You can`t just pull a gun because somebody`s got a bag of Skittles.</s>ZIMMERMAN: I don`t know what his deal is.</s>PROTESTERS: Prosecute Zimmerman! Prosecute Zimmerman! Prosecute Zimmerman!</s>OPERATOR: He`s running? Which way is he running?</s>ZIMMERMAN: Down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My first thought was, No, it can`t be, because this is a guy that you would trust with your life. 911</s>OPERATOR: Do you need police, fire, medical?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe both, I`m not sure. There`s just someone screaming outside.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to have George Zimmerman arrested! 911</s>OPERATOR: So you think he`s yelling help?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. 911</s>OPERATOR: All right. What is your...</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s gunshots! 911</s>OPERATOR: You just heard gunshots?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. 911</s>OPERATOR: How many?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just one.</s>GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. A 17-year-old heads home to his dad`s condo, gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch. At this hour, still no arrest. With protests going on all around the country tonight, what is the truth behind the Trayvon Martin shooting? In the last hours, we learn of a report out of Orlando that the 17- year-old actually turned around and decked Zimmerman, the captain of the neighborhood watch, when Zimmerman falls that he hits his head on the sidewalk several times. Is that true? But I know this much. I know what I hear! All right, Liz, let me hear the 911 call where Zimmerman is on the phone with 911 -- quickly, please.</s>ZIMMERMAN: Hey, we`ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there`s a real suspicious guy. This guy looks like he`s up to no good, or he`s on drugs or something. It`s raining, and he`s just walking around, looking about. Now he`s coming towards me. He`s got his hand in his waistband. Something`s wrong with him. Yes, he`s coming to check me out. He`s got something in his hands. I don`t know what his deal is. These</s>OPERATOR: Are you following him?</s>ZIMMERMAN: Yes. 911</s>OPERATOR: OK, we don`t need to you do that.</s>ZIMMERMAN: OK. Coming towards the entrance of the neighborhood. 911</s>OPERATOR: OK, which entrance is that that he`s heading towards?</s>ZIMMERMAN: The back entrance.</s>OPERATOR: Are you following him?</s>ZIMMERMAN: Yes. 911</s>OPERATOR: OK, we don`t need you to do that.</s>ZIMMERMAN: OK.</s>GRACE: He said, All these</s>MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, of course, today is the -- one month since this shooting took place. There`s a major protest that is planned tonight. There`s a town hall meeting. Tempers continue to grown, and there are concerns, perhaps, that emotions could overflow. Thousands of people are expected. The family of Trayvon Martin has put out a plea asking for calm. That`s the latest on where things stand as far as the protests. But what is the real shocker now coming out is this information coming from "The "Orlando Sentinel" newspaper, and they are the ones that are reporting, according to the Sanford Police Department, of a fight that took place -- that`s the way they describe it -- between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin, and that, allegedly, Trayvon decked George Zimmerman with a single punch and then began beating his head against the sidewalk. Again, this is only coming from "The Orlando Sentinel," but it does seem to jive with what the attorney for George Zimmerman, has said, which is that his client suffered a broken nose and cuts to the back of his head.</s>GRACE: To George Howell, CNN correspondent, also joining us there in Sanford. George, thank you for being with us, you and Martin both. George, what can you tell me about any medical reports on Zimmerman? Hold on -- I`m going to go to Ellie Jostad on that. Ellie, what can you tell me about the alleged broken nose and the blows to Zimmerman? Has that been corroborated about by medical reports?</s>ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, it is corroborated by the police, who say that when they arrived, indeed, Zimmerman was bloody. His attorney says that he did seek medical treatment for the broken nose. He said he had a gash bad enough to require stitches, but that it was apparently too late to give those stitches by the time he went to the hospital.</s>GRACE: Now, what does that mean, it was too late to give the stitches by the time he went to the hospital? Because it`s my understanding -- to you, Dr. Bill Lloyd, board-certified surgeon and pathologist joining us out of Sacramento -- you know, when you have a cut or an injury, only when that skin starts to grow back together is it too late to do stitches.</s>DR. BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: Not necessarily, Nancy. If the wound is contaminated -- and there`s a story here that there was a tussle on the lawn -- then there could be germs, dirt and debris in the wound, and the physician may have decided, Let`s just thoroughly irrigate it and clean this and let the wound heal by what we call secondary intent.</s>GRACE: OK, I don`t know what that means.</s>LLOYD: Let nature take its own course. We cut ourselves all the time, and we don`t go to the hospital. You wait long enough, it`ll heal on its own. Put a Band-Aid over it and tissue will come together on its own.</s>GRACE: Dr. Lloyd...</s>LLOYD: So I`m just speculating that...</s>GRACE: Dr. Lloyd, do I always agree with you? Yes. But this time, let`s just see -- now, listen to me, Dr. Lloyd. I`m trying to figure out, was Zimmerman really hurt? Did he really think he was defending himself when he shot a 17-year-old, all right? That`s what I`m trying to figure out. And if he goes to the hospital and you`re telling me he could use a Band-Aid and the kid is dead -- a Band-Aid? That`s not stitches. Help me out, Dr. Lloyd.</s>LLOYD: If a wound is contaminated by dirt, by an animal bite or other circumstances and then sewn together, what you have there is a recipe for a serious infection. So medical judgment sometimes requires not all wounds be sewn closed. To the novice, it may appear like a very serious injury. But scalp wounds heal pretty quickly on their own. A wise decision may have been made by a doctor, We don`t need to do anything about this. Again, I haven`t seen the medical records...</s>GRACE: Doctor, Doctor...</s>LLOYD: ... regarding this, but it would make sense to me.</s>GRACE: Doctor, I think -- I`m just a lawyer. I`m just a JD, you`re the MD. But I think what you`re telling me is he didn`t need stitches.</s>LLOYD: It may have been unwise to give him stitches.</s>GRACE: All right. OK. Back to Steve Helling, writer with "People" magazine. Steve Helling, I know there are protests going on all around the country. I know the elected district attorney has stepped aside in this case and recused himself for this. I know there`s a special investigative grand jury, which is not a typical grand jury, it`s been a politically appointed grand jury. What I want to know is exactly what happened that night because we`ve got a big problem, Helling, because neighbors -- you hear 911 telling Zimmerman, Whoa, whoa! We don`t need to you do that. Don`t follow him. Don`t follow him. You see, that turns -- under the law, Helling, that turns Zimmerman into the aggressor, OK, because under the law, when two people are engaged in combat, that`s self-defense. But when one person is going after the other, that would turn Zimmerman into the aggressor. So what I need you to do, Steve Helling, is listen to this next 911 call with me. Take a listen.</s>ZIMMERMAN: I`m with the neighborhood watch, and we`ve had some burglaries and vandalism lately. And this gentleman was walking in the neighborhood, I`ve seen before on trash days going around picking up trash. I don`t know what his deal is. 911</s>OPERATOR: Is he white, black or Hispanic?</s>ZIMMERMAN: He`s black.</s>OPERATOR: How can I help you.</s>ZIMMERMAN: Hi. There was a break-in in my neighborhood recently, and two youths that match the description of the people -- my wife</s>OPERATOR: What do they look like? Are they white, black or Hispanic?</s>ZIMMERMAN: Black males.</s>ZIMMERMAN: This guy looks like he`s up to no good or he`s on drugs or something. It`s raining, and he`s just walking around, looking about. 911</s>OPERATOR: OK. This guy, is he white, black or Hispanic?</s>ZIMMERMAN: He looks black. 911</s>OPERATOR: Did you see what he was wearing?</s>ZIMMERMAN: Yes, a dark hoodie, like a gray hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sounds like a male. 911</s>OPERATOR: OK. And you don`t know why?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know why. I think they`re yelling, Help, but I don`t know. Just send someone quick, please! 911</s>OPERATOR: Does he look hurt?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t see him. I don`t want to go out there. I don`t know what`s going on, so...</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re sending.</s>GRACE: OK, Steve Helling, I`m not a cop. I`m not an audio specialist, but that sounds like a young man screaming, Help, help me. I mean, maybe it`s going to turn out that`s Zimmerman getting his head banged on the sidewalk, screaming, Help, help, help, but to me, it sounds like a young man, a younger voice. At first, when I first heard it, I thought it may have been a woman. But it sounds like a younger, a lot higher pitched voice screaming, Help, help, help, help me.</s>STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: It does sound that way. And one thing we have to keep in mind is that Zimmerman outweighed Trayvon by about 100 pounds. So you know, we are talking -- it probably wouldn`t have been a fair fight because...</s>GRACE: OK, Helling, Helling, Helling, Helling, Helling...</s>HELLING: Yes?</s>GRACE: I get it. Zimmerman weighs what we believe to be around 250 pounds, although his friends say he weighs less. Trayvon Martin weighed around 150 pounds to 170 pounds. So yes, he`s outweighed. Zimmerman was shorter. Trayvon Martin was a little bit taller, much, much lighter frame. But you know, the funny thing about guns, Steve Helling? They make a little man big and a big man little. That`s the deal on guns. So every rule about height and weight is out the window when somebody pulls a gun. But Steve Helling, have you heard the 911? Who is screaming, Help, help, help me?</s>HELLING: Certainly, it sounds like that would be Trayvon. I mean, the voice, like you said, is higher. So it does sound that way.</s>GRACE: At this hour, reports are surfacing out of Orlando that the 17-year-old actually decked Zimmerman and beat his head into the sidewalk. On the other hand, we hear the 911 operator saying, Don`t chase him.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is the case that is consuming the nation right now.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Calls for an arrest in the death of unarmed 17- year-old Trayvon Martin.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trayvon Martin was visiting family in a gated community when he walked...</s>GRACE: At this hour, there are protests going on all around the country. Politicians are sticking their nose into this. But what we need right now justice, and the only way you`re going to get justice is to get the truth. I have combed over the 911 calls, and they are very, very disturbing. Unleash the lawyers. And let me get up in a four-box also Woody Tripp, former police commander, joining me out of Atlanta. With me tonight out of D.C., Georgia Gossley (ph), former federal prosecutor. With me, Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney, former fed, and Karen Conti (ph), defense attorney out of Chicago. All right, Woody, let`s just talk some street sense real quick, OK, before we drag the lawyers into it, then all hell will break loose. Woody, they told him, Don`t chase -- don`t go after him. At that point, they didn`t know. They thought he was a 17, 18-year-old. Don`t chase him. What, Woody -- what was he thinking?</s>WOODROW TRIPP, FORMER POLICE COMMANDER: You know, Nancy, you made a very good point with the big man and the little man and what a gun does, and I think that may have happened. I mean, I guess my whole issue with this is -- you`re absolutely right. They told him, Do not pursue. He now becomes the aggressor. And at some point, someone has to ask, do not the same laws that apply to George also apply to Trayvon? Does he not also have the same right not to have to give his ground when he`s being accosted by an unknown person with a firearm?</s>GRACE: Well, a lot is going to depend, Woody, on whether Martin saw that gun before he decked Zimmerman.</s>ZIMMERMAN: George. He ran. 911</s>OPERATOR: All right, George, what`s your last name?</s>ZIMMERMAN: Zimmerman.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s gunshots. 911</s>OPERATOR: You just heard gunshots?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. 911</s>OPERATOR: How many?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just one.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard the crying. It was a little boy. As soon as the gun went off, the crying stopped.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had a 9-millimeter gun. Trayvon Martin had a bag of Skittles.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite the nationwide clamor for his arrest, convicting his killer, George Zimmerman, won`t be easy.</s>GRACE: At this hour, we are hearing reports out of Orlando that witnesses are corroborating a story that Trayvon Martin, the 17-year-old in this case, turned around and decked Zimmerman with one punch, and then beat his head into the sidewalk. Here`s my question. Did Trayvon Martin, who apparently started running -- it sounds to me, Ellie Jostad, like Trayvon Martin thinks somebody`s following him, which he is following him -- and starts jogging.</s>JOSTAD: Yes.</s>GRACE: And it sounds like Zimmerman then started going faster himself because you can hear him on the 911 call. And that`s where we`re going to learn everything, is from 911 calls.</s>JOSTAD: Right.</s>GRACE: You can hear him breathing like he`s starting to exert himself in following Trayvon Martin.</s>JOSTAD: Yes. And there`s a lot of pieces here because you have the 911 call, where he clearly tells the dispatcher that he is following Trayvon Martin. The dispatcher says, We don`t need you to do that. You also have a girl who is on the phone with Trayvon Martin, who says that he told her that somebody was following him, and she says she told him to run. He said, I`m not going to, but I`m going to start walking fast. Then you hear on the call Zimmerman says, He`s running, as in the person he thinks is a suspicious character is running. So I think you`re going to have to look at all those pieces together and try to piece together what exactly happened, who was pursuing who.</s>GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. And keep Woody Tripp up with me, Liz -- Woodrow Tripp, former police commander. With me, Georgia Gossley, Hugo Rodriguez, Karen Conti. First to you, Hugo. Let`s break it down. What are we learning? What is the truth? There`s a lot of clamor going on. There`s a lot of anxiety. The district attorney has recused himself. But what is the truth of what happened? We`ve all listened to the tape. We`ve heard -- and I hear somebody screaming, Help me, help me, in the background, Hugo.</s>HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There`s another equation. There are witnesses that were interviewed. There`s one lady that says she hears a young man screaming, Help, help, and then a gunshot. All we know, that "stand your ground" is to defend yourself if you feel that your life or the life of someone else is being threatened. And it`s force on force. Even if someone were to hit you by hand, it does not give you the authority and justification to shoot them. The question is, where was he shot?</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police, I just heard a shot right behind my house.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just said he shot him dead!</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Justice for Trayvon.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s just someone screaming outside.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An unarmed 17-year-old walking home at night from picking up candy from a convenience store.</s>UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Are you following him?</s>GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, SHOOTING SUSPECT: Yes.</s>UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK, we don`t need to you do that.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He`s self-appointed neighborhood watchman --</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The scream --</s>GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking you live to Sanford, Florida, in the shooting death of a 17-year-old, Trayvon Martin. In the past hours, reports out of Orlando stating Trayvon Martin turned, decked Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain, and beat his head into the sidewalk. Did that happen? According to Steve Helling, writer with "People" magazine, he has sources that say that`s not true. Helling, what do you know?</s>STEVE HELLING, STAFF WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Well, I spoke to three different people who witnessed all or part of this confrontation, and what they all told me was that at the end of everything George Zimmerman was not bleeding, he was not wiping his nose, he wasn`t complaining about -- hurting his head or anything like that, and the original police report doesn`t have anything about that in it. So my witnesses said, no, they didn`t see him bleeding, they didn`t see a bloody nose which, if your nose is broken, chances are it`s probably going to bleed.</s>GRACE: So, Steve Helling, you have read the police reports. We all know that in those reports -- I`ll let you report it. What do we know about any alleged injuries to Zimmerman?</s>HELLING: Well, we know that, you know, later on we did start hearing about this broken nose and whatever but that`s not the original stuff that came out. Originally what we just heard was about the chase and how they tussled and they tussled in the grass but we didn`t hear about a broken nose.</s>GRACE: Wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa.</s>HELLING: We didn`t hear that.</s>GRACE: Wait. Where is the so-called tussling coming from, because you`re telling me your sources are saying there was no tussle. Isn`t that what you just told me?</s>HELLING: No, no, my sources are saying he was not injured, he did not have a bloody nose, he did not have a scar -- laceration on the back of his head. That`s what they`re saying. What my sources saw was Zimmerman on top of Trayvon. They did not see it the other way around.</s>GRACE: Exactly what did they say, Helling?</s>HELLING: OK. I spoke with -- I spoke with sources who said they went running out when they -- when they heard the screaming and they saw Zimmerman with his knees pinning Trayvon on the ground. Trayvon was facedown on the ground. They said that that probably was after the shot had happened but they said that, you know, they didn`t see anything where Trayvon had the upper hand.</s>GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Robert. Robert, hi, what`s your question?</s>ROBERT, CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Can you please tell me why -- the real reason why Trayvon has not been arrested? Has this</s>GRACE: Well, I`m concerned, too. I can`t thinking maybe police know something that I don`t know. But since the 911 calls have all been released, the police reports have all been released, apparently we`re not missing a piece of the puzzle, Robert. I don`t know why there hasn`t been an arrest because typically when you shoot somebody dead, you get arrested. If you want to make a self-defense claim and tell that to a jury, fine. Have at it. Maybe it`s true. A jury will then acquit you on self- defense. But I would at least expect an arrest to be made. That`s what I`m not understanding. To George Howell, CNN correspondent, joining me out of Sanford. George, what do you make of these reports out of Orlando that Trayvon Martin decked Zimmerman, the 17-year-old decks the neighborhood watch captain? Now why would you deck somebody that was holding a gun?</s>GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Nancy, at this point still trying to determine if he even knew that Zimmerman had a gun but what we`ve learned through "The Sentinel" and apparently authorities -- they`ve talked to authorities in this investigation that with one punch Martin knocked Zimmerman out -- knocked him to the ground, rather, then grabbed his head and then started beating it against the sidewalk. This, again, according to that "Orlando Sentinel" report. That`s what we`re getting. But keep in mind this is one piece, as you mentioned, one piece of many other things that are trickling out through this investigation. Still a lot that investigators say they`re still trying to gather to determine exactly what happened that night, Nancy.</s>GRACE: Well, I`ve got another question. With me is George Howell, CNN correspondent. I`m reading the police report here and it states they take Zimmerman straight to a police interrogation room. Now if his nose were broken and he had been beaten to the back of the head on a sidewalk, it seems to me they would have taken him for medical treatment first. Am I the crazy one here, George?</s>HOWELL: Yes, I think that`s a fair assessment. In this case, though, it seems that Zimmerman was able to leave home from what we`ve gathered, and you know whether that happened later still unclear.</s>GRACE: We are taking your calls. I want to unleash the lawyers again. Georgia Goslee, Hugo Rodriguez, Karen Conti. Also with me Woodrow Tripp, former police commander. Karen Conti, weigh in.</s>KAREN CONTI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, we have this law in Florida called your "Stand the Ground" law. That means that if you are attacked, you don`t have to retreat and you can defend yourself including the use of deadly force if you reasonably believe that your life is at stake or that someone else`s life is at stake or that there`s a crime being committed, a forcible felony. So this is a very broad defense that Zimmerman can and probably will use if he is arrested. And in this case we don`t quite know what the facts are yet except the only important is going to be those moments before the gun went off, what happened? If he was really trying to kill or really seriously injure Zimmerman, Zimmerman would have a right under this law to take out his gun and shoot him.</s>GRACE: And what more do we know -- Natisha Lance is joining me from the state capital where from yet another protest. Natisha Lance, what can you tell me from your vantage point?</s>NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, what I can tell you is that -- we don`t, there are so many questions that still need to be answered but we have to keep in mind here that Trayvon Martin is a child. He was a child and according to him or from what was going on with him, he didn`t know this person who was following him. He didn`t know if he was in danger. We hear from his attorneys, from his parents saying that there was this audio witness, his girlfriend who he was on the phone with, and he is approached by someone and he says, why are you following me? So there are still so many questions that need to be answered, and you raise such a good point that when did Trayvon Martin know that George Zimmerman had that gun? That`s going to be so important with this investigation.</s>GRACE: To Georgia Goslee, former federal prosecutor. Georgia, I`m trying to imagine, put myself in both of their spots. All right? In Trayvon Martin`s spot he`s going home, he doesn`t know who it is. They`re following him. He speeds up. The guy follows him, Zimmerman follows him some more. At some point, you know, he tells his girlfriend, I`m not going to start running. I`m not going to run from him. I`m going to walk faster. I`m going to walk faster. Finally turns around and decks the guy, if you believe those Orlando reports.</s>GEORGIA GOSLEE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: My problem with this, Nancy, is no matter how we slice it, no matter how many interpretations we get, George Zimmerman is clearly at fault. He is the aggressor here. He defied a lawful order saying you do not need to follow this young man. He made racial slurs. It is pretty clear that he intended to hunt him down because he said you a-holes always get away. I don`t think it`s a stretch and I don`t think it`s unreasonable for any inference to be drawn based upon what George Zimmerman said. He`s the aggressor. He needs to be arrested and beyond a reasonable doubt if it`s proven, and I believe it will, if they`re fair-minded jurors, he needs to be convicted and go to jail. He has killed an innocent child. He was the aggressor and he is wrong.</s>GRACE: You know, another thing along that vein, Woodrow Tripp, is the law reads like this. And I can quote it for you directly, Woody. Intent to commit a crime can be formed in an instant. In the time it takes you to pull a gun, pull the trigger. And you may immediately regret the deed because Zimmerman has had friends go out on all the talk shows and talk about how he`s been crying for days, and I appreciate that. I really do appreciate that he`s been crying. But he may immediately regret the deed. I mean at that moment he may regret the deed. But the deed is done. Trayvon Martin`s dead. Now a lot is going to depend on how these facts unfold but at the outset, Woody, he is the aggressor and I keep saying that because that is what self-defense hinges on. Whether Zimmerman has a claim or not. You can`t claim self-defense if you`re the aggressor and he`s the one chasing Trayvon Martin. That`s the problem. Now did Trayvon Martin at some point turn around and hit him? According to the "Orlando Sentinel," yes, he did. But does that take away from the fact that he is the aggressor? I don`t care if he regrets the deed now. Does it matter under the law? He is the aggressor, Woody.</s>WOODY TRIPP, FORMER POLICE COMMANDER, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Two things here, Nancy. Two questions. Was Trayvon legally where he was supposed to be when he was there? The answer is, yes. Second, was Trayvon committing any crime in this place that he was legally at? He was not. So at that point, again, we go back to, when did Trayvon lose his "Stand Your Ground" right?</s>UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: He`s yelling help?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.</s>UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: All right. What is your --</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Crying for help and a gunshot.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As soon as the gun went off, the crying stopped.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This man, George Zimmerman, holding the gun that killed Martin.</s>ZIMMERMAN: These</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Zimmerman tells police it`s self-defense.</s>ZIMMERMAN: I`m pretty sure the guy is dead out here.</s>GRACE: We want the truth. We don`t want a witch-hunt, but we want justice. I`ve got a baby boy. And I wonder what Trayvon Martin`s mother is going through tonight. Back out to George Howell. George, so many reports are swirling but give me your own scene. Give me your understanding of the time line.</s>HOWELL: We know that this happened in a very short amount of time, and we know that Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend according to his attorney right after 6:40, sometime right around then, and then right after 7:00, between 7:00 and 7:16, 7:17, that is when this exchange, this confrontation happened. And we`re still waiting, Nancy, there are so many questions that we`re trying to answer here on the ground as we get these bits and pieces through this investigation. It all starts to come together but, again, trying to piece together exactly what happened, say between 7:00 and 7:16 on that rainy, cold night here in Orlando, and in Sanford, rather, is still to be determined. We`re still trying to get to the bottom of it.</s>GRACE: With me is Rolonda Watts, radio host. OK, Rolanda, please tell me your take on this.</s>ROLONDA WATTS, RADIO HOST, SUNDAYS WITH ROLONDA: Nancy, I`m with you. There isn`t a day that has gone by where I have not shed a tear for Trayvon and for all the little boys who are profiled. And Trayvon did nothing but walk while being black, and if you look at the history of Zimmerman with other black young boys or men, it was the same thing. And not one time were any of these people doing anything --</s>GRACE: Rolonda --</s>WATTS: It wasn`t about their behavior.</s>GRACE: Rolonda?</s>WATTS: Yes.</s>GRACE: I could hear with let me just say my naked ear him, Zimmerman, call Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old, an F-ing racial slur.</s>WATTS: Absolutely.</s>GRACE: I heard that. I don`t know why people are acting like they can`t hear it.</s>WATTS: I heard it, too.</s>GRACE: I heard it.</s>GRACE: I can hear it.</s>WATTS: Absolutely. I heard it. I`m not an engineer. I heard it. Guess what, because I`ve heard that word before. I`ve heard that word before. I think that this country has got to have an open dialogue about the isms that we carry around, the hatred that we carry around, the fear that we carry around. We`ve got -- I had to sit down with my godchild who is a teenager and say to him, let`s be very honest, there are people who are not going to appreciate your beauty and your brilliance. These are conversations we don`t want to have with our kids. But on my radio show yesterday, Nancy, that`s all people were talking about . I`m so concerned about my child. I`m so concerned about my little boys. You know, we`ve got to have honest conversation with our kids about the reality of this hurting and healing, I hope, nation.</s>GRACE: With me is Rolonda Watts, radio host, "Sundays with Rolonda." Right now Jerome Horton, this is Trayvon Martin`s football coach. He has known him since he was 5. Mr. Horton, thank you for being with us. What did you think when you heard that Martin had been gunned down by no less than the captain of the neighborhood watch?</s>JEROME HORTON, TRAYVON`S FORMER FOOTBALL COACH, KNEW HIM SINCE AGE 5: Honestly, I could not believe it. When Tracy called me, I really did not believe it. And the first thing I wanted to know was why. And when he didn`t have an excuse. They`d never -- he told me they never gave him a reason. And this was the day after.</s>GRACE: Please tell me about Trayvon Martin.</s>HORTON: Trayvon is Martin was a great kid. Trayvon Martin wasn`t confrontational which is when I heard the story that he said that Trayvon attacked him, I knew it couldn`t be true because that`s not Trayvon. Trayvon is not aggressive. That`s not him at all.</s>GRACE: You know, I was thinking -- I was thinking, Mr. Horton, that when he was telling his girlfriend, I`m not going to run, I`m not going to run, I`m not going to run, that does not seem consistent to me with a young man turning around and attacking Zimmerman because he obviously was scared. Long story short, he was afraid. He said some guy is following me. That is not consistent with the bravado of turning around and attacking somebody.</s>HORTON: And what you have to ask yourself, I don`t think anyone is asking this question. If he was following him and Trayvon -- he`s -- they say he was 240 pounds, Trayvon was 145 pounds, give or take five pounds. If he turned around and Trayvon hit him, do you really think Trayvon could knock him down and then bang his head on the floor and hold him down, that that would give him justice to say, oh, I`ve got to shoot him? No one is saying -- no one is even talking about that and this is more than just black or white or Trayvon being black and Zimmerman being white. This has nothing to do with it. This has to do with what`s right and what`s wrong, and no one touches bases on that. It has nothing to do with the hoodie or anything, the Skittles, the iced tea. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with this kid was walking back home, not bothering anybody. Why was -- why didn`t he make it back home?</s>GRACE: You know what, Jerome Horton, you`re right. That is all this has to do with. And to you, Chris Tutko, director of the National Neighborhood Watch Program and National Sheriff`s Association -- Mr. Tutko, a neighborhood watch person carrying -- what was it? A 9 millimeter? Kel-Tec 9mm, PF semi-automatic. What was that all about?</s>CHRIS TUTKO, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH PROGRAM: I have no idea. We do not ask people to carry weapons. We don`t ask them to carry mace, a metal flashlight, and certainly not a gun.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He loves kids. He loves to baby sit and watch cars and just a normal kid.</s>UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: How old would you say he is?</s>ZIMMERMAN: He`s got a button on his shirt.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can hear the 911 tapes in my head.</s>ZIMMERMAN: Late teens.</s>GRACE: To Dr. Janet Taylor. Dr. Taylor, the thinking -- Zimmerman`s thinking, why did he feel he had to follow a 17-year-old with a gun?</s>DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, Nancy, from all indications he`s kind of this wannabe protector, but, you know, clearly, he made judgments, he racially profiled the kid and had what I think are paranoid projections about the danger which was not a danger because Trayvon had the right to be there, that he was going to protect the community from, and it`s an outrage. He should be arrested.</s>GRACE: Back to Chris Tutko, you told me that neighborhood watch members are not supposed to be armed, much less with a 9mm. Why? Explain to me your thinking that neighborhood watch not armed. Why?</s>TUTKO: Because we`re -- neighborhood watch is in a community. Community members helping each other keep their neighbors safe, keep their neighborhood safe. You start bringing weapons in it, they`re not trained to use weapons. That`s not their job. Neighborhood watch is the eyes and ears of the law enforcement. We need -- we need to call law enforcement and let them do their job.</s>GRACE: To Woody Tripp, former police commander. You know, Woody, you and I have been on the street for so long, we`ve seen it all. I`m telling you this. I don`t see, Woody. Where is he? Self-defense. If you are the aggressor, you don`t have the right to claim self-defense. And shouldn`t it be, Woody, that an arrest goes down, and if he wants to claim self-defense, he can tell that to a jury.</s>TRIPP: Certainly, Nancy. And that`s what I would look at as an investigator. You know, Trayvon had the right to be there. He was not committing a crime. The aggressive in this case chased the paper boy and caught him and it got turned around on him.</s>GRACE: Tonight, we want justice. Whatever that may be. Whether the courthouse falls down around us, we want justice. It has been a month now. A mother is crying. Let`s stop and remember Marine Sergeant Phillip Bocks, 28, Troy, Michigan, killed Afghanistan. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon. Loved cooking, the outdoors, was a ski instructor, climbing instructor. Leaves behind parents, Kent and Margaret. Grandmother, Katherine. Phillip Bocks. American hero. Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. Happy birthday to one of the big stars of our show, Stacey. Happy birthday. And happy birthday to our special Sheryl McCollum. Everyone, all eyes on Florida tonight. I`ll see you tomorrow, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend. END