Ed Gordon tackles the issues of note in communities of color. Monday's guests; George Curry, editor-in-chief of the National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service; Jeff Obafemi Carr, founding artistic director of the Amun Ra Theatre in Nashville; and Michael Meyers, executive director of the New York Civil Rights Coalition. Topics include: Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman's apology for racial politics, interrogation tactics by the U.S. military and schools trying to attract more male teachers.
ED GORDON, host: This is NEWS & NOTES.  I'm Ed Gordon.</s>ED GORDON, host: On today's Roundtable, a pattern of abuse emerges among US military      interrogators, and Republican Ken Mehlman offers an apology to the NAACP.      Joining us here in our New York bureau:  Michael Meyers, executive      director of the New York Civil Rights Coalition; Jeff Obafemi Carr,      founding artistic director of the Amun Ra Theatre in Nashville joins us;      and George Curry, editor in chief of The National Newspaper Publishers      Association News Service joins us.  He joins us from Maryland.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right, gentlemen.  Let's talk a little bit about something that      happened last week that is most interesting coming off the heels of our      conversation with the two Congress folks, Maxine Waters and Mel Watt.      And that is that last week, during the NAACP convention, Republican      National Committee chair Ken Mehlman suggested that Republicans had not      done enough to court blacks in the past and had exploited racial strife      to court white voters, particularly in the South.  He said, quote, "I'm      here today as a Republican chairman to tell you we were wrong," end      quote.</s>ED GORDON, host: Jeff, when you hear that and juxtapose that to the concern and anger,      quite frankly, that the NAACP has had with the administration, with the      president five times in a row turning down an invitation to speak to the      group, what does this say?</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Well, Ed,      you usually catch every pop culture reference I make down to the artist      and the song.  But you probably remember that song "Too Much, Too Little,      Too Late (To Ever Try Again)."  And I think that on many levels this is      the case here. What's really needed as opposed to just an apology and an      acknowledgement of what everybody knows, is some tangible action that      will reverse the lasting effects of the so-called `southern strategy'      that was birthed during the Nixon administration that wooed white voters      by blaming civil rights on the Democrats.  And when you have a wife      beater--and I mean the human being, not the shirt--it doesn't matter that      if after each successive beating, he says `Oh, baby, I'm sorry.  I'm here      to tell you as your husband I was wrong,' if he keeps beating the wife.      And, of course, the Republicans want to reach out to black voters.  Why?      Because we're a sleeping giant of potential.  And if we become      politically awake, we can determine the outcome of almost any election.      In a country where less--or half or less of its population will      participate in a democratic elections, we're the X factor and we can X      you in or X you out.  And I think Republicans are really realizing that      and that want us to help them with their long-term success.</s>ED GORDON, host: That being said, George Curry, not since the days of Lee Atwater      have the Republicans seen black America as fertile ground.  They are      clearly going after black Americans like they have not done in decades.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor In chief of The National Newspaper Publishers      Association News Service): Yeah, and yo--I mean, where the apology was      well stated.  I read the entire speech.  You're--still is not offering      anything different.  You know, how can a president not go there?  Snub      them and go to the Black Expo?  And you've still got this whole idea of      the president also coming out against both of the affirmative action      cases coming out of the University of Michigan.  And you have the NAACP      report card where only one Republican in the House and Senate got a C.      Everybody else got an F, not even a D.  So it's that record of theirs      that people are dealing with, not the rhetoric.</s>ED GORDON, host: Michael Meyers, George mentions the president snubbing the      NAACP, yet going and readying himself for the Black Expo.  Do you have to      speak to the NAACP, or can you, as the president is suggesting, feel that      that's too hostile of an audience and I'm still talking to black folks at      a Black Expo?</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Well,      the NAACP is a hostile audience.  The NAACP is probably also an      irrelevant audience.  I think if the NAACP were a powerful organization,      institution, the president would be beating a path to the NAACP as      opposed to the NAACP begging for an audience with the president.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): But with respect to your previous question, the central question, about      the apology, this is an age of apology and is--I think these gestures are      just that.  They're empty.  It's empty rhetoric.  I mean, if they're      going to apologize for racial history, then it's a form of racial      pandering, so to speak, to go to a black audience to say `Oh, we      apologize.'  Where's the apology for the Democrats like--from the      Democrats, like Joe Biden, who rode the anti-busing issue--the      anti-forced--so-called forced busing issue all the way to Congress?      Where's the apology for putting Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court as a      replacement for Thurgood Marshall?  This is another form of racial      pandering.  Where's the apology from Bill Clinton for his Sister Souljah      remarks?  If you're going to have apologies, apologies all the way      around.  I see this as nothing more than window dressing, racial      pandering, which is, I think, another form of racism.</s>ED GORDON, host: What of the idea, Jeff, that Democrats are making this far too      easy for Republicans to apologize and, to some degree, put the glitter      back on even the possibility of changing party?</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Yeah, I think the Democrats do make it easy.  And I think both      political parties in the United States on some levels take advantage of      African-Americans.  Bush got this first time around about 9 percent of      the African-American vote.  I think in the last election he got about 11      percent. A small jump, but a gain nonetheless.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): There's also this use of the term--now you'll hear this probably a      lot--it was in Mehlman's speech--but the `party of Lincoln,' which is a      psychological reference to the freedom of the slaves.  All of this is      manipulation on both sides and many of our artists today in hip-hop claim      that they're pimps and our leaders are on the other end.  We sh--we have      to be the pimp if we're going to play this political game, not the ones      who end up on our backs with our resources going to somebody else.  And I      think...</s>ED GORDON, host: George...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): ...we have to look at both parties in that way.</s>ED GORDON, host: ...you and I have traveled together quite a bit throughout the      country and often during political campaigns.  When you hear this, the      `party of Lincoln,' when you hear Democrats on the other hand talking      about how `we're there for you,' particularly with social programs and      the like, this kind of, quote, "pandering," seems to have gone on again      for years and years with no new message from either side.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor In chief of The National Newspaper Publishers      Association News Service): Well, I agree somewhat, but I will disagree with an earlier      comment about how you characterize the NAACP.  I don't think they're      irrelevant or they're hostile.  First of all, Reagan had spoken--I was      there when Reagan spoke there.  Bush spoke there before.  They got a      polite reception.  If you--whether you agree or not, if you dis--if      there's a legitimate organization that represents the masses of black      people, you should go there.  But you can't just dismiss them by going to      an expo.  That's a major insult.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor In chief of The National Newspaper Publishers      Association News Service): And so--but to your question, though.  Yeah, I mean, this--what could be      a wonderful opportunity for the Republican Party, I mean, because people      are disgusted with the Democratic Party.  They don't really stand      for--you don't know what they stand for these days.  But you don't do it      by not having a change in your policy.  You don't do it by being hostile      to civil rights.  You don't do it by being opposed to affirmative action.      It's the record there and the rhetoric won't get it.  Sure, the      Republican Party is nothing like it was when it was the party of Lincoln      and nor is the Democratic Party.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.  Let's move on to another headline.  This talking      about a forced detainee--being forced, I should say--a detainee being      forced to wear women's underwear on his head, confronted with snarling      military dogs attached by a leash and chain.  This is not Abu Ghraib      prison in Iraq, but this Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.  This comes from a newly      released military investigation that shows that these tactics were      employed there months before by military police before we heard about the      Abu Ghraib situation.  And these techniques were, according to this,      approved by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.  So this being said,      clearly we're starting to see a pattern here, Jeff, and we're starting to      see the tentacles touching Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.  Many      people now concerned with this and other situations, i.e. the war in Iraq      most specifically, and starting to call--the whispers are becoming shouts      for this man's resignation.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Yes.  I think you mentioned that--you really hit the nail on      the head when you used the word `pattern.'  Because as the US goes, so      does the rest of the world.  In terms of modern, so-called warfare and      its kind of spotty rules, we're seeing that Guantanamo Bay is fast      becoming the standard bearer and the pace setter, if you will, for wanton      human rights abuse under the flag of interrogation.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Now I'm going to be honest, gentlemen.  In the world of interrogation,      there aren't many niceties.  I think back to when I got booted from high      school for a senior prank, and even in the principal's office, I promise      you, they worked me over so hard, I thought they were going to pull out      the wet towel and the phone book next.  So I can't even imagine what it's      like for prisoners in Cuba.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): However, the US should either be frank and say, `Hey, we get you over      here, give your heart to God, we're going to feast on the rest,' or they      should practice what they preach.  The cycle of denial here is clear.      There are two things the old folks say are particularly appropriate.      One, where there's smoke, there's fire.  And two, you can't do wrong for      long.  So sending the Tiger teams as trainers in 2003 that the FBI, who      actually made 26 allegations--these are the FBI who are doing this      investigation--made saying that the Tiger teams that were sent over to      Iraq were authorized.  And this is not the first time Donald Rumsfeld's      involvement in the issues of national defense and security has been      called into question.</s>ED GORDON, host: Michael Meyers, could we perhaps say that this is coming out of      the Neanderthal age for many people who are now hearing about this?  One      has to believe, as Jeff intimated, that this kind of thing, quite      frankly, despite what you hear about the Geneva Convention rules      and--that you need to be nice and humane to prisoners--does it often      happen?</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Well, one doesn't have to believe that at all.  I believe      that in context, you had what they called a 20th hijacker.  And I would      have--be--much more have concerned--had you taken the 20th so-called      alleged 20th hijacker from the September 11th, 2001, to a country where      they really practice torture.  That's torture.  ...(Unintelligible) here      that the military probers did not use the word `torture' in describing      the kind of, what I call cultural abuses towards this person who was      detained.  The military probers characterized the tactics as aggressive      and creative.  They did not characterize them as illegal.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): So if you're going to have a, quote, unquote, "pattern," you also have to      connect the dots.  You have to say that the practices that have been      ongoing in these prisons or detention centers have been illegal, have      been torture and they have been authorized.  And if they've been      authorized, if you have a public official authorizing illegal practices,      illegal torture, then the call is for resignation.  And there's only two      ways of removing a public official, or three ways of removing a public      official:  hounding him out of office and getting his resignation, which      Secretary Rumsfeld has indicated he's not going to do; getting the      president to fire him, which the president has indicated he will not do      because he has confidence in Donald Rumsfeld; and the third is      impeachment and removal from office by the Congress, and the Congress has      indicated they're not ha--they're--too many wimps.  There is no      illegality here and they're not going to do it.  So Rumsfeld stays in      office.</s>ED GORDON, host: George?</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor In chief of The National Newspaper Publishers      Association News Service): You still have the military investigating itself, and that's      like asking Frank James to investigate Jesse James.  You know, you know      what you're going to get in terms of an outcome.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor In chief of The National Newspaper Publishers      Association News Service): I think it's a serious allegation when you say that people are      threatening--and this is one of the things it did document--threatening      to kill a detainee's family, shackle him to the floor in an awkward      position and using duct tape to put over his mouth and then using the      sexual--they call it gender coercion, knowing that it's going to go      against a person's religious beliefs and standing.  And so I think these      are serious charges, and I'm not surprised that they'd be characterized      in a rather soft way.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Well, I agree with George there.  I will say that the notion      of the military investigating the military is something that I disagree      with, too.  You need an independent prosecutor to look at the real facts.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right, gentleman, let's turn our attention now to an issue      that many people have perhaps overlooked by virtue of the stereotypical      nature of what this country thinks of as teachers, and that, of course,      is the idea of having a female in the classroom, particularly in the      early stages of education.  According to the National Education      Association, and that's the country's largest teachers union, only 21      percent of the teachers in the United States--the public school system      now we're talking--are men.  And in earlier grades, as I noted with the      stereotypical thought of teacher, the gender ratio is even greater; it's      about 9 percent of all elementary school teachers are men.  Jeff, many      people see this as problematic by virtue of needing the image of a man,      particularly when you think about African-American young people in this      country.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Yeah, it's definitely problematic.  I remember--and I think      maybe if we reach deep inside, all of us can remember the first male      teacher we had, and particularly the first male black teacher we had.      And I can remember the great teachers, but I particularly remember      seventh grade because that was the first time, at 12 years old, that I      actually had a black male teacher.  It was a kind of negative experience      because the kids really used to talk about the guy.  They felt that he      was a little bit effeminate.  That goes into the psychology of the notion      of teaching, and one of the problems that we're having getting men into      teaching these days, according to what the NEA says and other people say.      But I can't stress how important it is for kids of all races to have      more males, particularly black males, involved in their early      matriculation.  And I say `early' because sometimes by the time we get in      high school--by then, they're ceremoniously black males in the classroom      to walk through six periods before they can do their real job which, in      many cases, is coaching one of the athletic teams.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Now as you said, according to the NEA, there's 21 percent of men that are      out there teaching, and I shutter to think the small number of black men      that might be out there.  And with the reasons being given being low      salaries, the perception that teaching isn't masculine and the public      fears that they might actually be in a position to physically harm the      kids, you know, let's just be frank.  The role models that you have      usually happen at an early age, and many of our kids are getting their      role models from sports figures, and I definitely think we have got come      up with some kind of program...</s>ED GORDON, host: Yeah.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): ...that can get more men in the classroom, and that will, in      turn, replicate more men in the next generation in the teaching field.</s>ED GORDON, host: Michael.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Well, I think there's a danger of stereotype here, and not      only the stereotype of black males being effeminate who teach, or black      students who le--who love learning to be effeminate.  These stereotypes      must be attacked, and particularly at the teaching level and the teaching      profession.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Yes, there's a shortage.  There's a shortage of males in the classroom,      but there's also a shortage of teachers.  And I think you need to have      more teachers and qualified--people qualified to teach and to reach      children.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): My response to Jeff's comment about the black male role model is:  Come      on, please.  What we need is effective teachers.  We need people who are      women, who are men, who are of all colors who can reach and teach our      children.  And I don't really care about the skin color of the teacher in      the classroom as long as that teacher is motivating and educating and      teaching.  And the role model is itself the fact that the person is      reaching the child.  That's the role model, not their skin color and not      their gender.  So we have to be careful not to stereotype and be careful      not to discriminate against female teachers in the classroom, because      once you have stereotypes for men, I predict that you will have--they      will get plum assignments, they will get certain assignments, you'll want      to have the--match the black male to the black male classroom.  This is      all racial nonsense.</s>ED GORDON, host: George.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor In chief of The National Newspaper Publishers      Association News Service): When I was growing up, I never had any male teacher that we      would even consider effeminate.  That was never an issue.  And I think      the problem is, though, that we just don't pay teachers enough and we, in      the past--would go into teaching, but now we have so many other options.      That's part of the problem, and the problem is particularly acute at the      elementary school level. Yeah, they say that--reports say 21 percent of      men in total, but there was like 9 percent in the elementary school.  And      I think that's crucial, and I think it is important that you have people      who look like their students, that it is important that they also be      people of color and representative, as well. That is an important signal.      They need to see them in those kind of positions.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): But not matched.  Inclusi--included, but not matched.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor In chief of The National Newspaper Publishers      Association News Service): No, I agree with that.  Oh, I agree with you on that, Mike.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor In chief of The National Newspaper Publishers      Association News Service): Mr. MEYERS;  OK.</s>ED GORDON, host: Well, Jeff...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Yes, I agree that the models that they don't really have      to--color does not really matter on some levels.  But it's kind of like      the debate that people have religiously over Christ.  They said, `Well,      if the color of Christ doesn't matter, why is he always painted white?'      I mean, it's interesting when we never...</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): In your church, too?</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): ...we look at these things--hello?</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): In your church, too?</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Oh, say it again.  I didn't hear you.</s>ED GORDON, host: No.  You know what?</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Well, I'm just...</s>ED GORDON, host: We're out of time and that was the Michael Meyers quip for the      day. He said, `In your church, too?'</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Oh, yeah.  Well, you see...</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.  Listen...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): ...with, Mike.  What I was saying is...</s>ED GORDON, host: ...not to let you down, Jeff...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): ...I agree with you.  But I think proactively...</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): ...from the black perspective, we can't deny that we're      models. There are people who are listening, kids who are listening to the      radio who are saying now, `My gosh, there are three intelligent      African-American men,' and they may never have heard that before.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): And they will say, `Wow, I can do that, too.'</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): And I think that's the power of having one in the classroom.</s>ED GORDON, host: Jeff, George and Michael, thank you very much.  Greatly      appreciate it.</s>Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): There were four.</s>ED GORDON, host: Coming up, a look at...</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Founding Director, Amun Ra Theatre): Four.  Oh, yeah...</s>ED GORDON, host: ...Botswana through the eyes of its former president.  And jazz      trumpeter Terence Blanchard finds inspiration in the next generation.</s>ED GORDON, host: You're listening to NEWS & NOTES from NPR News.