Gowdy Upends Trump Theory; Mueller Probing Sessions Recusal
REP. TREY GOWDY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I am even more convinced that the FBI did exactly what my fellow citizens would want them to do when they got the information they got, and that it has nothing to do with Donald Trump.</s>BERMAN: He just said that out loud. Joining us now is Ken Cuccinelli, CNN legal and political commentator, and Jeffrey Toobin, CNN chief legal analyst. Jeffrey, you know, Congressman Gowdy, who has seen as much as anyone can see on this, just said nothing to see here when it comes to the president's charge essentially of FBI investigative spying on the Trump campaign.</s>JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, Gowdy, like Jeff Flake, is not running for re-election, so he actually is telling the truth about what's going on here. And, you know, it is true that he is -- that this is a completely bogus conspiracy theory. But what's even more true is that every accusation against the FBI, every accusation against Mueller has completely fallen apart under objective scrutiny. And Gowdy reflects that here. And he's just, you know, afflicted with the disease of being honest.</s>BERMAN: You know, Ken, Trey Gowdy was the guy who was sent in to be part of these classified briefings. He's the guy that House Intelligence Chair Devin Nunes, who, to an extent, is stirring all of this up, he's the guy that Nunes wanted to see or hear the most secret stuff that the FBI was willing to let be seen. And Gowdy is now saying, uh-uh, I just don't see it. The FBI handled it perfectly. Do you agree?</s>KEN CUCCINELLI, CNN LEGAL AND POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I agree that Gowdy is more credible than Nunes. I do not agree, having not seen this information, however, I do not agree that we can just brush aside the notion of an informant or a spy. And you can call them whatever you want, in a presidential campaign when the Obama administration was doing the things they were doing. I would also note Gowdy's other half of that comment that has gotten no play in the mainstream media, and that was his emphatic statement, this is nothing to do with Donald Trump. Meaning, from his perspective, whatever it is he saw not only convinced him that the FBI was pursuing something legitimate, but also that it had no connection to Donald Trump. So there's two parts to this. I am comfortable with one of them, obviously. I am less comfortable with the other as one of those 300 plus million Americans who don't get to see this information. I just don't think -- and the -- and as a lawyer, I mean, I put -- I flip the case around and say, how would it go the other way? What would I do? If Donald Trump's administration -- because this was Barack Obama's administration -- was putting an informant in Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, whoever the Democrat candidate ends up being, in their campaign, no one, including this network, would ever believe in a million years it was done for an objectively appropriate purpose.</s>BERMAN: Well --</s>CUCCINELLI: It wouldn't happen. And I -- and I think we need a lot more convincing, as the American public, to see that this incredible step, historically unique step, was appropriate because it sure doesn't look like it from the outside.</s>BERMAN: You made it sound like it was David Axelrod or a political person inside the Obama campaign sending in --</s>CUCCINELLI: No, no, no, I'm referring</s>BERMAN: No, hang -- I understand. Listen, listen, this was the FBI that put this confidential source -- it wasn't an informant -- inside the campaign. It was a confidential sources who talked to people who were connected to the campaign. And don't take my word for it. I don't know anything about this. Trey Gowdy is the guy who's been briefed and Trey Gowdy went in there.</s>CUCCINELLI: Right. Yes, but -- but in context --</s>BERMAN: And he's convinced. And your own point -- hang on one second, Ken, because your own point, the FBI is saying, you know, we're not looking at the Trump campaign here, we're looking at the Russian's attempt to infiltrate the Trump campaign. You and Trey Gowdy seem to be on the same page, but you just don't want to let the idea of a political plot go.</s>CUCCINELLI: Well, look, first of all, as I said, I haven't seen the information Trey Gowdy has seen. And perhaps the biggest point that I think I would make that is different from Trey Gowdy is that they are going to have to come up with a way, in the context of agents in charge of doing investigations related to Trump and Hillary who were out to get Donald Trump, who were out to get him. That's what their texts say.</s>BERMAN: Jeffrey.</s>CUCCINELLI: That's the context. It isn't just some objective FBI investigation. And remember one last point. They keep saying we were trying to protect the campaign. That isn't how you do that. You have a -- you have a beginner's campaign full of beginners, and you don't even talk to them about uprooting whatever you view as the problem. You just go in and essentially plant your own person in that campaign?</s>BERMAN: Jeffrey.</s>CUCCINELLI: That is not trying to protect the campaign. That's out to get the campaign.</s>TOOBIN: I mean, you know, this is a constant moving of the goalposts to make the FBI look sinister. Every time someone clears the FBI and says this investigation was appropriate, it's like, well, no, that's not really the question. It's a different question. I mean this whole thing is fake. This is all designed by Donald Trump and Devin Nunes to discredit whatever Mueller comes up with. That's the only purpose of this whole inquiry. Every time --</s>CUCCINELLI: Actually --</s>TOOBIN: Let me finish, Ken.</s>CUCCINELLI: Yes, I'll wait. I'll wait.</s>TOOBIN: Every time the investigation goes forward and it's clear something else comes up. And it's just -- there is no other purpose to this except to generate outrage about Mueller among the Republican base and it's worked pretty well, according --</s>BERMAN: If I can ask you both to wait for a second.</s>TOOBIN: OK.</s>BERMAN: For one moment, Jeffrey. And, Ken, I wanted to bring up the other big story that developed overnight, which is "The New York Times" reporting this meeting between President Trump and the attorney general, Jeff Sessions, after the attorney general recused himself from the Russia investigations. "The Times" is reporting, Ken, that President Trump tried to get him to un-recuse himself, which is very rare, if not unprecedented in these types of investigations.</s>CUCCINELLI: Yes.</s>BERMAN: You acknowledge that. And that the special counsel is looking at this meeting to see if it is connected to possible obstruction. Do you think that a meeting like that raises questions?</s>CUCCINELLI: I expect a special counsel, when they're identifying what boxes they have to check and then checking them off, would look at this sort of a question in the same way they're looking at the firing of James Comey. I mean the firing of James Comey is much more direct. This is in the same category. I think this is probably best explained as the continuing fairly undisciplined expression of Trump's frustration over Sessions' initial complete recusal, as opposed to just from the criminal piece, or any part of it. And I think it's unwise on his part. I fully expect Mueller to look at it. I don't expect it to develop anything beyond whatever would have been developed by looking at the James Comey firing.</s>BERMAN: Jeffrey, the biggest legal jeopardy for the president here would be, what, if in that meeting Sessions were to say, the president came to me and said, why did you recuse yourself? I need someone here loyal to me, to protect me in this investigation? Those words would be --</s>TOOBIN: I need my Roy Cohn, which he has apparently said to others, who was the sinister lawyer who was a very important figure in Donald Trump's early career. Look, the issue of whether the president used his power to deflect, to interfere, to obstruct an investigation of him and his campaign is at the heart of the Comey inquiry -- of the Mueller inquiry. Whether that -- you know, whether this meeting is further evidence of that is obviously something that Mueller -- that Mueller should look into and apparently is.</s>BERMAN: Yes. Rudy Giuliani, by the way, says un-recused doesn't says bury the investigation, it says take responsibility for it and handle it correctly. Robert Mueller ultimately may be the barometer of whether or not that's</s>TOOBIN: That's -- can we just say, that's just false. Recusal means not participate. I mean what Giuliani is saying is completely false.</s>BERMAN: Jeffrey Toobin, Ken Cuccinelli, thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it. Alisyn.</s>CAMEROTA: All right, North Korea's former spy chief coming to New York to meet with Secretary of State Pompeo. So, a top North Korean spy, former, in the U.S. What could go wrong? We discuss, next.