Russia's Next Move?; Russians Amass More Troops on Ukraine Border
CAMEROTA: More trouble in Ukraine tonight. Russia has added 8,000 troops on the border with eastern Ukraine, increasing the force there to some 20,000. What should the White House do about this? Joining us now is Stephen Cohen. He's the professor emeritus of Russian studies at Princeton University and NYU. And General Wesley Clark, he is back with us. He's the former NATO supreme allied commander. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. General Clark, let me start with you. What is Putin doing?</s>CLARK: Well, he's building up his capacity to intervene. He hasn't apparently made a decision overtly to intervene. We do know there are Russians on the ground there is Russian equipment inside. And there's Russian artillery and rockets that fire across the border to target the Ukrainian forces. So he's building up the military capacity. He's got a pretext for intervention now. He's got the separatist mayor of Luhansk citing an eminent humanitarian catastrophe, and he's calling for a U.N. Security Council meeting to discuss a humanitarian situation. He's got many options. He could overtly invade. He could infiltrate across the border. He could declare himself a unilateral peacekeeping mission. He could call for a ceasefire. He has lots of options here. And he -- he is playing it. He is like someone fumbling with the lock trying to find the right key to open the door.</s>CAMEROTA: So Professor, how troubling is this, what's happening on the border?</s>STEPHEN COHEN, PROFESSOR EMERITUS, PRINCETON: Well, it would be troubling if General Clark told only one side of the story. But in any fight, there's two fighters. There's an American adage here is two sides to every story. It's very clear in Moscow how Putin sees this, what he thinks he is facing. He is being told by people who are advising him that this is no longer a struggle for Ukraine, but a struggle for Russia. These cities that you have reported on in eastern Ukraine that are being attacked by the Ukrainian army, Kiev, are close to Russia. He is being told if you let those cities go, you lose those cities, you will fight tomorrow in Russia. So General Clark is right in this regard. Putin is now exploring another option. Can the defenders of the city, as they call themselves, with additional Russian weapons defend the cities themselves? If not, he's preparing another option, which would be to intervene directly.</s>CAMEROTA: General, what do you make of that? Do you think that Putin is going to do what he -- pull a sort of Crimea maneuver here?</s>CLARK: Well, he certainly would like to do that. But he -- Putin has declared politically that he has created a zone that includes eastern Ukraine. He wants that to be Russia. He envisions forming the basis for a new union. It may not be exactly like the Soviet Union, but it will make Russia a greater power. And he wants eastern Ukraine in that. How much is eastern Ukraine is open to dispute. But those two cities, they're not Russian cities. And the people who are leading the fighting in there are not Ukrainians who are Ukrainian citizens. They're Russians who have infiltrated in backed by Soviet Spetznatz. So it's a tactic of aggression. And he wants to legitimate, but now he is being frustrated because he never expected the Ukrainians would actually fight. Imagine, he thought that he could just walk in there and they would surrender. The Ukrainians were told by the west not to resist in Crimea. That's why the Ukrainian defense minister called the Russian generals in Crimea and said, "Look, don't hurt our people. We'll give you everything. Just let us leave." But they didn't like it. They're fighting for their country.</s>CAMEROTA: General -- OK. Hold on a second. Professor, I see from your expression that you see this differently.</s>COHEN: I'm glad you call me a professor, because I deal with facts. I want to be as polite as possible. But General Clark is simply uninformed. These are Ukrainian cities, Russian-speaking Ukrainian cities. The populations are either ethnic Russian or Russian- speaking, but they are Ukrainians. They are getting help from Russia. But overwhelmingly, the fighting force in these cities that's defending the cities, about 15,000 men, overwhelmingly they are Ukrainian citizens. The notion, this entire crisis comes from Putin's aggression, ignores a fundamental fact there is a civil war under way in Ukraine. And as I said the first time I was on CNN back in February, that if Ukraine's civil war becomes a proxy war with America supporting Kiev and Russia supporting the east, then we will run the risk of an American-Russian war. And that is exactly what happened. To omit one-half of the story is just not to know what to do next.</s>CAMEROTA: General, I do want you to be able to respond to what professor Cohen is saying, and also, do you think this has become a proxy war between the U.S. and Russia?</s>CLARK: No, I don't think it's a proxy war between the United States and Russia. But what happens in Ukraine will have an enormous bearing on what happens for NATO and how the United States has to respond in leading NATO. So the outcome is vital to the United States. What we want is a diplomatic solution. But let's be very clear about this. There was an overthrow of an authoritarian government in Ukraine. There's been a democratically elected president. People in eastern Ukraine are Ukrainian, but to say that this is a civil war is to ignore the instigation, the subversion and the leadership of the Russian influence, which has encouraged, aided, abetted and supported that conflict. So strictly speaking, this is not a civil war. This is a tactic for taking over eastern Ukraine by an outside power.</s>CAMEROTA: Professor Cohen, I'll give you the last word.</s>COHEN: Yes, because the longer General Clark speaks, the more non- facts emerge. It's a civil war created by history. Nobody created this in Russia or the United States. And to say it's not a proxy war when the United States Department of Defense has testified to the Senate that United States officials are embedded in the Ukrainian defense ministry is simply to ignore reality. I don't know where General Clark has been these last two or three weeks.</s>CLARK: Well, I've actually been in Ukraine. Now, I don't know where you have been, professor, but when I was in Ukraine, I met with the American embassy; I met with the Ukrainian government. And there are actually-- we're not giving any military assistance that I can see, other than some flak jackets and supposedly night vision goggles that will someday arrive and some MREs. That's not much compared to what Russia has in that conflict.</s>COHEN: Well, do we have officials -- do we have officials in the Ukrainian defense ministry?</s>CLARK: Not to my knowledge.</s>COHEN: Well, they have testified to this to the Senate.</s>CLARK: No. What you had was a -- what you had was a fact-finding mission from the United States European command to look at the long- range structure of the Ukrainian armed forces to reduce the size of the armed forces in the five to ten-year planning effort there is nobody giving them any advice or any assistance that I know of. And I was just there. I've been there twice.</s>COHEN: Well, you look it up. Because it's Senate testimony.</s>CLARK: Well, I testified in the United States...</s>COHEN: Not you.</s>CLARK: It wasn't my testimony.</s>COHEN: Not yours. Of course. You're not in the government.</s>CAMEROTA: Gentlemen, it doesn't sound like we're going to be able to resolve this tonight. But of course, we will keep our eyes on what's happening along the border. And we thank you both for your perspectives.</s>COHEN: Thank you.</s>CAMEROTA: Thanks so much. When we come back, are Republicans going head to head on support for Israel? Rand Paul seems to be changing his tune. Next, I'll ask Ann Coulter what she thinks he means.