Interview With U.S. Secretary of Veterans Affairs Robert Wilkie
BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION. I'm Dana Bash. The White House responded with unusual force this week, denying a report in "The Atlantic" that President Trump called the service members who died during World War I -- quote -- "losers and suckers." And now a former senior administration official confirms to CNN the president did use crude and derogatory terms to refer to Marines buried in a French cemetery. Joining me now, the secretary of Veterans Affairs, Robert Wilkie. Mr. Secretary, thank you so much for joining me this morning.</s>ROBERT WILKIE, U.S. SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS: Thank you. Thank you, Dana.</s>BASH: So, as you know, as I referred to, just referred to, "The Atlantic" broke a story this week saying that the president...</s>WILKIE: Yes.</s>BASH: ... privately called Americans who died in war losers and suckers. And, on a 2018 trip to Paris, that is where it allegedly happened. CNN has confirmed the president referred to fallen U.S. service members as crude and derogatory. Have you ever heard the president disparage U.S. service members or veterans?</s>WILKIE: Well, absolutely not. And I would be offended, too, if I thought it was true. Again, I think anonymous are the same people that brought you fake heart attacks, fake strokes, Russian collusion. So, I am -- I am very proud that this president has led to a renaissance at Veterans Affairs. And one of the reasons I'm glad to be on CNN is that it was CNN and Jake Tapper that blew the lid off the scandals in the last administration when it came to Veterans Affairs. And your own polls, in 2014 and 2015, had a 37 percent approval rating for the Obama/Biden administration. We are at 90 percent approval in terms of veterans for our services.</s>BASH: So, Mr. Secretary...</s>WILKIE: We have completely turned around Veterans Affairs.</s>BASH: And, Mr. Secretary, we're going to talk about that in a minute, but I just want to stay on this topic. First of all, what you just alluded to...</s>WILKIE: Yes.</s>BASH: ... strokes and so forth, I have not reported that. To my knowledge, nobody at CNN has reported that. But, on the topic of the "Atlantic" reporting, the Associated Press...</s>WILKIE: Yes.</s>BASH: ... "The Washington Post," FOX News, and now CNN have corroborated parts of that story. So, my question for you is, given that, and given the fact that nobody is backing down from the sourcing on that, how can you be sure that that is not true, especially since you weren't there?</s>WILKIE: Well, nobody is backing down from these anonymous sourcing on it. And some of these sources that you cite are general officers. I was born in khaki diapers. I have spent my entire life around the military. And I have never known any general officers to hide behind stars. So, what I am looking at is the Donald Trump that I know, the Donald Trump who has turned around Veterans Affairs from a place that, in the Obama administration, was 16 out of 17 in terms of best places to work. We're now under -- up to six.</s>BASH: OK. We're going to...</s>WILKIE: I presented the two largest -- I know, but you have got to put it in perspective. And that's what I want to do.</s>BASH: But we're going to talk about that. I understand. No, I understand. But we're going to talk about that. But I really want to stay on topic, because this is dominating the news, in large part because the president is trying to be so aggressive in pushing back. The issue that he has is that this is consistent with a pattern of public statements by the president. I want you to listen to what then candidate Trump said about John McCain in 2015.</s>TRUMP: He lost. So I never liked him as much after that, because I don't like losers.</s>TRUMP: But, Frank, Frank, let me get to it.</s>FRANK LUNTZ, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER: He's a war hero. He's a war hero.</s>TRUMP: He hit me. He is not a war hero.</s>LUNTZ: He's a war hero. Five-and-a-half years as a</s>POW. TRUMP: He's a war hero -- he's a war because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured, OK, I hate to tell you.</s>BASH: Listening to that, the way he disparaged, not just John McCain, but all prisoners of war, do you understand why people might find the details of these stories we're hearing now believable?</s>WILKIE: Well, I understand that, in the passion of a campaign, with two powerful personalities -- and I'm a friend -- I was a friend with John McCain. His family and my father -- my mother's family grew up in the same county in Mississippi. He was very much responsible for my career and advancing it. And President Trump has been the same. I -- I understand politics. I understand name-calling when it comes from both sides. But all I can say is, all -- the proof in the pudding for us is what has happened to veterans in the last three years, a renaissance...</s>BASH: But, Mr. Secretary, this isn't about politics. This is about -- he denigrated not just John McCain, but he said, "I like people who weren't captured." He denigrated prisoners of war. As somebody who just described yourself as you were born wearing khaki -- or when you were little, you were wearing khaki diapers...</s>WILKIE: Sure.</s>BASH: ... and somebody who was close to the McCain family, is that acceptable?</s>WILKIE: Well, it's -- it's politics. It's the heat of a campaign.</s>BASH: Do you wish he didn't say it?</s>WILKIE: I judge a man by his -- I judge a man by his actions. And the actions have been beneficial for veterans all across this country in ways that we have not seen since the end of World War II. And I would also say the same for the United States military. I was the undersecretary of defense. I -- for personnel and readiness. I watched this president sign letters of condolences to those who have fallen in Afghanistan and Iraq. I was on the front lines then. So, I'm judging the president by what he's done as president. And I can also say that I find -- I find those...</s>BASH: OK. And I want to -- I want to move on. But I take it you do think John McCain was a war hero?</s>WILKIE: Oh, absolutely.</s>BASH: OK. I want to also ask about the president also reportedly questioning the point of military service at all during a visit to Arlington National Cemetery with former Chief of Staff and retired Four-Star General John Kelly, whose son, of course, is buried there. I want you to listen to what President Trump said about John Kelly just on Friday.</s>TRUMP: I know John Kelly. He was with me, didn't do a good job, had no temperament, and, ultimately, he was petered out. He got -- he was exhausted. This man was totally exhausted. He wasn't even able to function in the last number of months. He got eaten up in this world.</s>BASH: I know you worked with John Kelly when he was at the White House, chief of staff, and elsewhere.</s>WILKIE: Certainly.</s>BASH: Do you agree? Do you agree with the president?</s>WILKIE: Well -- well, I agree that both men are doing the best that they can for the armed forces and veterans of the United States. I'm not going to get into a he said/she said with the president and the former chief of staff.</s>BASH: He said he didn't do a good job.</s>WILKIE: All I can say is, as the head -- all I can say is, at the head of Veterans Affairs, I'm concerned about making sure that we redress all the wrongs that were left over from four years ago in giving veterans the best service possible. I see the proof in the pudding. And the proof in the pudding is, our military is stronger, and our Veterans Affairs Department is in a place that it has never been. This is the renaissance. And it's all because of one man.</s>BASH: Well, you say that, but I have to ask you about the VA in particular and something that President Trump has consistently done, which is misleading the public about his record for veterans. He claimed credit more than 150 times -- 150 times -- for the Veterans Choice Act. That was signed into law by President Obama. Listen to President Trump.</s>TRUMP: We passed Veterans Choice and Veterans Accountability for our great vets. Nobody's done for the vets what I have. We also passed VA Accountability and VA Choice. Look at how the VA's doing. It's doing incredibly well. We got all sorts of things done, from Accountability to Veterans Choice.</s>BASH: Now, this is an important law that allows some veterans to get health care from outside the VA system. Now, I know President Trump expanded it in 2018. But why does he insist on repeating that he's responsible for passing it, when it was President Obama?</s>WILKIE: Well, you just -- you just answered your own question by saying that this Trump initiative, which is the MISSION Act, actually expands Choice to all veterans. The Obama -- the Obama initiative was designed to fail. It only gave few veterans choice. It had an expiration date. And it didn't pay their bills. I have spent the last two years trying to pay the bills left over from the Obama administration. And, for the first time -- and the president is absolutely -- and the president is absolutely right on this -- all veterans have choice. It's permanent.</s>BASH: Right. But -- but he said, we passed the Veterans...</s>WILKIE: The Obama administration was temporary.</s>BASH: ... the Veterans Choice and Veterans Accountability Act. That literally was signed by President Obama. Do you wish you would...</s>WILKIE: Well, you -- that's right. But you are talking about semantics. You are talking about semantics, as opposed to substance. We have given permanent choice. That's what the president is saying. The Obama -- the Obama administration...</s>BASH: But shouldn't semantics matter when you're talking about the president trying to explain what his record is for veterans that obviously mean a lot to you?</s>WILKIE: Well, I think the -- I will tell you, you have been up on Capitol Hill a lot. Choice is much easier to understand than the MISSION Act, which was the title that the Congress put on the president's program, because it's an acronym that has six or seven different words in it. But what we are talking about is permanent choice, not what the Obama administration, Obama/Biden, foisted on the country, which was choice for a few veterans that expired in a few years. And it was designed to fail, because the government unions didn't want it, and the president went along with it. And we were left paying the bills. But what this administration has done for the first time is that it has given veterans full choice. And that is revolutionary.</s>BASH: Secretary Wilkie, thank you so much for joining me this morning. I appreciate it.</s>WILKIE: Thank you.</s>BASH: And up next, a look at some of the moments that defined President Trump's first term, and what to expect if he's re-elected to another four years. Stay with us.