Charges Brought in Crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17; United Nations Jamal Khashoggi Report Finds Saudis May Be Responsible; Interview with Ian Bremmer, President and Founder of Eurasia Group; Four Candidates Remain In Conservative Leadership Race
ISA SOARES, CNN ANCHOR, HALA GORANI TONIGHT: A very good evening to you, coming live from CNN London. I'm Isa Soares, sitting in for Hala Gorani. It's 7:00 p.m. in London. And tonight, a former FSB colonel is one of three Russians and a Ukrainian to be charged with shooting down Flight MH17 over Ukraine in 2014. Plus an independent report into the killing of Jamal Khashoggi reveals his gruesome death and finds credible evidence Saudi Arabia's crown prince is responsible for the murder. Also, Rory Stewart is knocked out of the race to become the next British prime minister. Four are left. Boris Johnson is way ahead. But first, five years and the new damning report for justice for the victims of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 seems as elusive as ever. A team of international investigators has announced it will bring murder charges against four people who they blame for the plane being shot down in the sky back in 2014. But the accused men are Russian and Ukrainian and both of those countries refuse to extradite their citizens. Now, a trial is planned for next March in the Netherlands. But it is doubtful any of these suspects will actually show up. We are covering this from all angles that you'd expect CNN would. With me here in London is Nick Paton Walsh who reported from the crash site five years ago. And joining us from Kiev, Ukraine is Matthew Chance. Matthew, I want to start with you, if I may. These four individuals didn't press the button to the missile launch, but were behind the events that led to the deaths of 298 people. Investigators, however, say -- and I'm quoting here -- "There is evidence showing that Russia provided the missile launcher." I mean, this is pretty damning. What has been the reaction from the Kremlin?</s>MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is damning. But of course, it's something that has been long-suspected. In fact, long-known, you might say, really, for the past several years since the details of this investigation came out. The Russians have been categorical, as usual, in their denial of this. They've called these latest announcements "threadbare." They've criticized the joint international team of investigators for trying to make Russia look bad. Essentially, that was the essence of the most recent foreign ministry statement, reacting to these latest -- these latest indictments. And basically, they said that the joint -- that the international prosecutors have, you know, purposely ignored the evidence that Russia has prevented, that they say contradicts these claims that it was a Russian Buk missile, a surface-to-air missile, that shot down that Malaysian Airline MH17. The Russians have been, you know, changing their story, really, for the best part of the past five years. First of all, they're trying to say that this was an air-to-air missile fired by a Ukrainian fighter jet that brought down the aircraft. They've since acknowledged that it was indeed a Buk missile, but their latest iteration of their claim is that this is a missile that was -- that was owned and used by the Ukrainian military. And they categorically denied, again, any idea, any suggestion or indeed, this firm accusation that it was the Russian military that was involved in this and it was the Russian military that supplied this Buk missile that brought down MH17 -- Isa.</s>SOARES: Matthew, you stay with us. I want to bring in Nick. Nick, as we were saying to our viewers, you've covered this story right from the get-go for us. When you look at this report, any surprises?</s>NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's quite detailed. I mean, they name the four individuals --</s>SOARES: Yes.</s>PATON WALSH: -- but essentially they're talking about a chain of command between the Kremlin and the missile actually getting into the country.</s>SOARES: Is that clear?</s>PATON WALSH: This report -- well, in their eyes, it is. And the Dutch have been incredibly forensic and meticulous, frankly, in how they piece together the wreckage of the aircraft, showed how it had to have been hit by various different types of shrapnel. Let's go through, actually, what's in today's press conference. Four individuals charged with murder. Igor Girkin, he's the separatist leader, the head of their military operations there. He's one of them. He's a Russian, in Russia, still, now. Sergei Dubinsky, who was head of the separatists' kind of intelligence, if you like, he's accused of still, really, being a Russian military intelligence officer. Also, Oleg Pulatov, he's also considered to be an intelligence agent as well. And then we have an Ukrainian individual, Leonid Kharchenko, who is still thought to be in separatist territory in eastern Ukraine. So the problem, really, being these men are accused of allowing that missile to have come from Russian Federation territory into separatist territory inside of Ukraine. They're clear that they don't want to go into the details -- Dutch police and prosecutors -- of exactly how they know these men are responsible. That has to happen in court in March. The question, of course, is will those men appear there. Well, almost certainly not. The Ukrainian prosecutors say they will try and arrest Mr. Kharchenko, who is currently in separatist territory. But as we know, Russia does not extradite its own citizens. It's against the Russian constitution. So a trial in absentia is most likely. The key thing, though, in this as we learn more and more about the phone intercepts and the kind of granular detail about how they got to this conclusion, one of the things that the joint investigation team played was a wiretap between a key Kremlin aide and a key separatist, discussing the need for help. And another conversation, too, in which they talked about the need for better anti-aircraft weapons. It's reasonably damning in terms of showing exactly how the separatists were so desperate for</s>SOARES: And, Matthew, this announcement, of course, putting the Netherlands and the international community in, really, confrontation with Moscow, kind of more confrontation, if you will -- what can we expect? Is Moscow at all rattled by this at this stage?</s>CHANCE: Well, they've (ph) been under sanctions, the Russians have, for several years because of this issue from the European Union and others. They've been sanctioned for the role they've played in the downing of MH17. The fact that they categorically, again, denied any involvement with it, you know, isn't a sign that they're even acknowledging their role in this. And so, you know, those sanctions are likely to stay. And you add it to the other sanctions, which Russia was being</s>SOARES: And, Nick, I was hearing from a father, one of the victims on that airplane, who said blaming Theresa May, blaming world leaders for not being tough enough on Russia, on the Kremlin and on Moscow.</s>PATON WALSH: Well, they didn't (ph) mount (ph) further sanctions after this. It's difficult to know, given the sort of frozen nature of the Ukrainian --</s>SOARES: Yes.</s>PATON WALSH: -- separatist conflict at the moment, quite what exacerbated (ph) activity Russia would do in order to have further sanctions against it. The British were pretty tough after the Skripal poisoning as well. But you have to bear in mind, this is a judicial proceeding at the moment. They're going very carefully through criminal charges against these four individuals. They say they're still investigating. They're appealing for witnesses. They're offering witness protection and they still haven't named the people they believe actually fired the missile and pressed the button. So there's still more to go here. And in order not to prejudice that too much, I think there's probably some degree for the foot to be off the political gas, so to speak --</s>SOARES: Right.</s>PATON WALSH: -- just to allow the wheels of justice to perhaps get into motion, if that ever actually occurs and isn't just a trial in absentia.</s>SOARES: Let me ask you just briefly. The four individuals that you mentioned, were they former back then or only now?</s>PATON WALSH: Former Russian active duty --</s>SOARES: Former Russian active (ph) as being (ph) intelligence and security --</s>PATON WALSH: So Igor -- it's hard to -- you know, former FSB Colonel Igor Girkin, he was the main military leader. It was believed that Dubinsky probably was still Russian intelligence --</s>SOARES: Right.</s>PATON WALSH: -- as was Pulatov as well. So no -- and the links between the separatist movements at that time and the Russian regular military were hazy. I mean, a lot of the time, Russian</s>SOARES: Nick Paton Walsh, thanks very much. And Matthew Chance in Ukraine, Kiev, thank you, Matthew. Good to see you. Now, to the first independent report on a murder that really shocked as well as horrified the world. The U.N. human rights investigators say Saudi Arabia was behind the, quote, "deliberate, premeditated execution of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi." The report urges sanctions against Saudi crown prince Mohammad bin Salman until and unless he can prove he wasn't involved. So many gruesome as well as chilling details are revealed, including Khashoggi's executioners referring to him as, quote, "a sacrificial lamb" before he even entered the Saudi embassy in Istanbul. Now, the investigator who wrote the report spoke to CNN. Take a listen to what she had to say.</s>AGNES CALLAMARD, U.N. EXTRAJUDICIAL EXECUTIONS INVESTIGATOR: What those seven, 10 minutes highlight are, first, the increasing fear experienced by Mr. Khashoggi from the moment he enters and starts realizing that something very bad is going to happen, to the end. So the fear is something that stays with me. Second is the fact that there is no attempt on the part of the individuals in the room to either resuscitate him or to do anything that will be -- that could demonstrate that his killing was accidental. As you know, the authorities -- the Saudis' authorities have said, no, they didn't intend. It was an accident. There is nothing in the recording that indicates an accident. If there was an accident, an accidental killing, you would expect people to -- you know, to say, "My gosh, something is happening. What do we do," try to resuscitate him, try to do this, try to do that. There is nothing of that nature. So what the recording indicates is rather, something fairly planned, not</s>SOARES: The investigator, there, behind that report. Let's break down the report with our international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson. Nic, you've been on this story right from the beginning for us. And so you know this better than anyone here. But let's talk about, first, the report that we heard from Agnes there. In your opinion, do you think it answers the question as to who called for the killing, who was behind it, who ordered it?</s>NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: I think it lays it out in a systematic fashion. There are details that she has in the report, such a conversations before Jamal Khashoggi got into the building, conversations that were had after he had gone there four days earlier to get this piece of paper that he was required for his divorce proceedings. So she has laid out the degree of premeditation, she has laid out the clear steps that the Saudis are taking in terms of their trail (ph). She's uncovered details there that we weren't aware of, the names of the people who are actually being tried and some of the people facing the death penalty. So as she's -- she has given a very, very strong first step and a clearer, a much clearer view of what happened than we previously had.</s>SOARES: Now, the Saudis -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- the Saudis have said that it was an accident. But what we heard today from Agnes really punches a hole through the whole report, for what we heard from them. Now, this is what -- let me give you (ph) what (ph) it -- on the question of premeditation, execution. this is what we'd heard from the report. "Joints will be separated. It is not a problem. the body is heavy... If we take plastic bags and cut it into pieces, it will be finished."</s>TEXT: "Joints will be separated. It is not a problem. the body is heavy... If we take plastic bags and cut it into pieces, it will be finished." Dr. Salah Mohammed Tubaigy, Recorded in Saudi Consulate, Istanbul</s>SOARES: This does show that it was premeditated -- we're seeing that on the screen there -- doesn't it, in that regard?</s>ROBERTSON: That conversation you've just said there, happened about 10 minutes, less than 10 minutes before --</s>SOARES: Before he entered?</s>ROBERTSON: -- Jamal Khashoggi entered the building. So it was absolutely clear it was on their minds. And the report also goes on to say that, no, that conversation was between the head of the group and the doctor who -- Tubaigy, who's become known as Dr. Bonesaw because he was the forensic surgeon who was believed to be responsible for cutting up the body. He is facing the death penalty in Saudi Arabia. So is the leader of that unit. These are details that have come out of that report that we didn't know. But the fact that they had that conversation minutes before Jamal Khashoggi walked into the building, very clearly shows that this plan was in existence. And she talks (ph), no effort to resuscitate him. So the story that they've -- that these people have told back to their leadership in Saudi Arabia clearly doesn't hold water and doesn't line up with the narrative that Saudi officials gave in the early days.</s>SOARES: Has Saudi said anything today, Saudi officials, have they commented on this, in this report?</s>ROBERTSON: The minister of state for foreign affairs, Adel Al-Jubeir, has tweeted about this. And he's tweeted very clearly, firing back. I mean, Saudi is hunkering down as if to sort of throw a shield over itself, that this is merely rainwater that will ripple off. He has said, number one, that the investigator, the special rapporteur, lacks credibility. They -- that the special rapporteur is trying to interfere in the justice system in Saudi Arabia, to take the trial out of the country because she has called for a suspension of the trial --</s>SOARES: Yes.</s>ROBERTSON: -- that's under way in the country. That she is undermining the credibility of the leadership in the country in this report. So the Saudis are pushing back very hard. But this has been their narrative sine they sort of got their story together, if you will, towards the end of October last year.</s>SOARES: She also -- I heard her interview today on CNN -- she also calls for targeting sanctions, which is something that's in the report. So far, Germany is the only Western country government to suspend future arms sales to Saudi Arabia. Do you think -- is there an appetite, Nic, for any other sort of retaliation for sanctions against Saudi Arabia from the likes of the United States, where we know where they've stood all along with this?</s>ROBERTSON: There was always a hope from Turkey, who was sort of -- the cold (ph) face of this, it happened on their territory. They've been doing a lot of the heavy digging, if you will, on the investigation. To no effect because they can't get the information from the Saudis, particularly where is the body, which is a key question, again, that's raised in this report. They had looked to the United States to get support from the United States, from President Trump. That didn't come. It doesn't look like it's forthcoming right now. President Trump's made up his mind, he wants to have a -- you know, he wants to have whatever sort of relationship the United States needs to have with Saudi Arabia. But this is an important, a very important and substantial first step into opening the door and, as she says, the necessity of having, you know, universal jurisdiction, that this is something that can be judged by the international community, can have an investigation and can try to reach its own conclusions on this. So she's opening the door here. So this report will no doubt go on the shelf with many other reports, as they do in the United Nations and other places. But there's a possibility here that politicians in the future, another U.S. president in a year and a half --</s>SOARES: Yes.</s>ROBERTSON: -- might pull it off the shelf and say, "OK, Saudi Arabia. X, Y and Z has happened or hasn't happened since then. Let's move ahead --</s>SOARES: Yes.</s>ROBERTSON: -- "let's use this leverage that's talked about here."</s>SOARES: And so far, really, many governments in fact, right around Europe (ph) in particular, have been very silent about this report today. Nic Robertson, thank you very much. So as we laid out for you, two very big stories we're covering today, both with potentially huge geopolitical consequences. Meanwhile, tensions remain between the U.S. as well as Iran, as the U.S. alleges that Iran was behind last week's attack on a pair of tankers. How should the global community deal with all these issues? For that, Ian Bremmer, founder and president of the Eurasia Group, a very well-known face on CNN, joins me now from New York. Ian, very good -- very good afternoon to you. Let me ask you this. Let's begin with Khashoggi, as I'm sure you heard Nic Robertson there. His premeditated execution, per this U.N. report. Reading the U.N.'s report, there is a real sense of frustration that nothing has been done. The CIA says it was ordered by the crown prince, but President Trump says that the crown prince has nothing to do with it. Why has the U.S. -- just lay it out for our audience -- why has the U.S. and others been so reticent in criticizing or punishing Saudi Arabia?</s>IAN BREMMER, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, EURASIA GROUP: Cash and geopolitical influence. I mean, you just asked Nic Robertson about the Germans. The Germans did, of course, cut off arms sales to the Saudis, but that's because the Germans sell almost no arms to the Saudis. The French, of course, very different reaction because there's actually real money involved. The Americans, there's even more money involved, the Saudis buy more arms from the U.S. than any other buying from the U.S. So, I mean, you know, you add to that the fact that this is coming into a news cycle where we're overwhelmingly talk about the United States versus Iran, and tankers being hit, of course, the Iranians, the mortal enemy of Saudi Arabia. And the reality is that this story, as important as it is for those of us that talk about freedom of speech and rule of law, this report's going absolutely nowhere and will have zero impact on either the relationship between U.S. and Saudi Arabia, or the Europeans. Just the French foreign minister just announced in the last few days, they're preparing for a trip for him to go to Saudi Arabia. They wanted to wait for some time for the Khashoggi, you know, sort of the heat to come -- to go out of that issue. He's going to make that trip in the fall. So, I mean, truly, I think that this is going to have virtually zero impact on the kingdom.</s>SOARES: This is not going anywhere, you said, because you believe that money talks louder than -- than anything else at this point.</s>BREMMER: Certainly, if you put it in the context of over a million Uighurs that are being rounded up and placed in detention camps inside China, and the reaction of the international community has been business as usual, with the single country that's writing the most important checks for infrastructure around the world. I mean, you know, the death of Khashoggi, a single journalist that was living in the U.S. but a Saudi citizen, I mean, in the context of a million Uighurs, it's hard to get too worked up over Jamal Khashoggi. I grant you that Saudi Arabia has nowhere near the international influence of the Chinese, but we're not talking about Burkina Faso either. So, I mean, at the end of the day -- especially with the Americans paying less attention to human rights these days, being less willing to put its finger on the scale in terms of not tolerating this sort of behavior -- the Americans have always been at least somewhat hypocritical on these issue. But much more willing to play realpolitik and really be indifferent to the way that domestic human rights are playing out. It's just hard to see something like the Khashoggi report -- which does not have the force of law, it is not officially even the voice of the United Nations, it is an important independent report that's been made -- it's just not going anywhere.</s>SOARES: And critically, too, you know, the United States, we know President Trump has shied away, really, from taking any sort of hard line against bin Salman. Clearly -- I don't know if I'm right on this -- he wants support from Riyadh when it comes to pressuring Iran.</s>BREMMER: He has that support. He also wants support in terms of the Saudis producing more to keep energy prices comparatively low. When you have threats around the Strait of Hormuz, that's been reasonably effective. Let's keep in mind that the best relations that Donald Trump has with any foreign leaders in the world: Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Israel. His first trip as American president, outside of the U.S., wasn't to Canada. Was to the kingdom and to Israel. That says, really, all you need to know here.</s>SOARES: So, Ian, in that case, do you -- I don't know if you heard what Nic Robertson was saying, that he believes that perhaps this investigation is going to be shelved somewhere and a future president may use it in a way that we may get some sort of results with Saudi Arabia in the future. Do you believe that's going to be shelved, put to one side?</s>BREMMER: I'm not really -- I mean, again, as I said, the Europeans are already quite eager to normalize their relations with the Saudis. You know, I think that this is a country that -- the reality is, they still have an enormous amount of energy wealth. I mean, even right in the teeth of the reporting on the Khashoggi murder, you had this future initiative, the big Davos in the Desert, as they called it, that the Saudis organized --</s>SOARES: Yes.</s>BREMMER: -- and it's true that, you know, the CEOs didn't show up, but they all sent their number twos. It was still business as usual. Those deals are still getting done. With a country with deep pockets like this and with a global geopolitical order that's increasingly fragmented without any clear leader, you're going to see much more of this, not much less.</s>SOARES: Ian, let's move to MH17. We've heard, right at the top of the show, four suspects facing murder charges. The likelihood is, they won't face trial, and possibly get away with murder. What's your take on what you heard today and what we heard today?</s>BREMMER: Well, this does -- this, of course, investigation by the Dutch does have force of law and there are indictments being passed down. But the fact is that you have three Russians in Russian territory. They will not be extradited, so they're certainly not going to face Ukrainian justice. And you have another which is Ukrainian, but is living in a separatist territory, not going to be handed over by the little green men, as they call them, who actually are running that territory nominally right now. Now, there's no question that the Europeans and the Americans, in the weeks after MH17 was downed, the Russians did face serious sanctions from all of those countries. But those sanctions have not been added to over the course of the last couple years, on the back of that investigation. Nor did the Russians in any way cooperate with those investigations as --</s>SOARES: Very true.</s>BREMMER: -- a result of those economic punitive measures. Having said that, the U.S.-Russia relationship today, no matter what President Trump says, is actually in very bad shape. That's true with sanctions, it's true with U.S. policies towards Ukraine, towards Poland, towards Venezuela, towards Iran. The Russians are deeply unhappy about that. So it's very different from Saudi Arabia in that regard, where these two countries are working quite closely. The United States and the Russians, there's really very little love lost between these countries right now, and I do think that the Russians are going to be playing a lot of defense. This doesn't help them.</s>SOARES: Ian Bremmer, always great to your insight. Thanks so much. Good to see you.</s>BREMMER: My pleasure. Sure.</s>SOARES: Still to come tonight, we'll have more on the situation between the United States and Iran, including images of one of the oil tankers damaged in the attack in the Gulf of Oman last week, as the U.S. Navy lets CNN see it firsthand. Plus the U.S. Federal Reserve reveals its plans for interest rates and the chairman will actually speak soon. Will the decision leave President Trump smiling or frowning? We have a live report from New York just ahead.