New York is Battleground for Same-Sex Marriage; Supporter, Opponent Debates New York's Same-Sex Marriage Bill
LEMON: Look at that. This is one of those -- New York -- maybe the rest of the country, maybe the rest of the world. New York is the new battleground in the national debate over same-sex marriage. As we're talking about this topic, tweet me some stuff because I'm going to ask our guests and you may give me some information I need. Supporters say they are close to passing the law, possibly just one more vote in the State Senate would push it over the top as soon as next week. But opponents really are not giving up. I want to talk about this with two key players in this debate. Daniel O'Donnell is a key sponsor of the bill in the New York Assembly, where the bill passed earlier this week. I don't think he'll mind us saying, Rosie O'Donnell's brother. Brian Brown is against the bill. You saw him in Mary Snow's report just before the break. He's part of the National Organization for Marriage. Again, listen, Mr. Brown, we have already said you're against it. If you're against it and you're one vote away, you have Republicans who are supporting this new bill, are you worried? Are you nervous about it?</s>BROWN: Well, obviously, it's crunch time right now. Again, in 2009, we heard from the lead sponsor, Tom Duane, that the votes were there, and the bill ended up being defeated, 38-4. So the notion that this is a done deal is wrong. What we're doing right now is, there are thousands of calls going in to Senators. The legislature should not be deciding something as important as the future of marriage. The voters of New York should have the same ability as 31 other state. Every single state that this has been put to a vote, the voters directly have all said, no, we know what marriage is, we know it's unique and special, and we do not want it redefined. The voters --</s>LEMON: OK, but listen to this though. You say the voter will decide. But 58 percent -- this is a recent poll here. 58 percent of New Yorkers support same-sex marriage, while more than one-quarter of voters say the measure, along with extending rent regulation laws -- it's a big deal here in New York -- is one of their top-two priorities. 58 percent. Are you sure you want to take to it the voters?</s>BROWN: Absolutely sure. We saw polls just like this in California and in Maine, polls that were worded in a very biased way. I have absolutely no double that if the voters of New York had a free and fair vote and they could vote on the issue of marriage, they would vote to protect it.</s>LEMON: OK. All right. Let's go -- let's give Daniel O'Donnell a chance to talk here. Daniel, what do you think? It's going to be Gay Pride in New York new weekend. On Sunday is the big parade. Do you think people will be celebrating then?</s>REP. DANIEL O'DONNELL, (D), NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLY: Absolutely. I am confident that, with the governor's leadership, we're going to get this done. No one ever asked me in 2009 whether or not it would have passed, but I would have told you it wasn't going to pass. This time it is going to pass and I'm proudly part of the process that's expanding the rights of New Yorkers.</s>LEMON: So listen, there is one Senator here, State Senator who is on the fence. I think it's Greg Ball, a Republican State Senator who's on the fence. But all of these talks and negotiations with the governor here, we're hearing that it may just sort of be a cover, because if one person is the one who decides and they won't get support in an upcoming election, so they're trying to get maybe more than 32, maybe 35 or 36 or more, and that is the negotiation tactic going on. What do you think about that Mr. O'Donnell? Is that true? And then I'll be asking you as well, Mr. Brown. Go ahead.</s>O'DONNELL: I know Greg Ball very well. Greg Ball is my colleague in the New York State Assembly. There's nothing Greg Ball likes more than attention about Greg Ball. Whether or not he's actually seriously considering this issue, I don't know. I've never spoken to him. I can assure you I have spoken to many Senators and the truth is that the vast majority of New Yorkers want this resolved. No one has ever been able to make case that my ability to get a license from my state has any impact on anyone else. And finally, we're on the precipice of that happening. So whether it's Mr. Ball or one of the other Senators, I don't really care. We only need one and we're going to get one.</s>LEMON: Brian Brown, same question?</s>BROWN: I don't think that they're close to getting another Senator, necessarily. And I think that to say that redefining marriage won't affect anyone -- but, Danny O'Donnell, you're absolutely false. If we can look at the consequences of same-sex marriage, we don't have to guess at them. When you're shutting down Catholic Charity's adoption agency in Massachusetts --</s>LEMON: Wait, wait, wait. Hang on. Hang on.</s>LEMON: I know what you're saying.</s>LEMON: Hang on. Let me just say about that because --</s>LEMON: Hang on.</s>O'DONNELL: -- to do with this bill. It's about licenses issued by the state. It has nothing to do with adoption agencies.</s>LEMON: Hang on. Mr. -- Daniel, let me talk to Mr. Brown about that. Because there are many people, especially legal experts, who say that is a red herring. That religious institutions and adoption agencies won't be shutting down and they're already going against the state's law as it is.</s>LEMON: So why are you saying that when people, legal experts say it's a red herring?</s>BROWN: There was a letter just published by three of the greatest legal scholars of our time, Mary Anne Glendon, at Harvard; Robbie George, at Trenton, and a number of other folks who actually support same-sex marriage. None of them deny that there are major unintended conflicts of same-sex marriage. And in Illinois, we heard this same arguments. It's not going to affect anyone other than the couples getting married. Wrong. In Illinois right now, there are three lawsuits because the Catholic Church, its adoption agencies are being told they have to shut down if they will not adopt children to same- sex couples. It's as simple as that.</s>LEMON: I'll let you have the last word, Daniel. But there were lawsuits, too, when they overturned desegregation and all of those things. And if it had been put to a vote -- let me ask you -- Producers, I'm going to need a little bit longer for this. So let's figure out -- Brian Brown, this same thing, if you had taken that to a vote to the people, then we wouldn't have equality among races and even gender here, as well. Do you know that?</s>BROWN: You're comparing apples and oranges. Laws against interracial marriages were about keeping the races apart. Marriage is about bringing the genders together. And that's why African-Americans have some of the highest opposition to same-sex marriage. Somewhere around about 70 percent of African-Americans in California voted against same-sex marriage. And frankly, I work with a lot of African-American leaders. I think they're tired of the civil rights movement being hijacked in the effort to redefine marriage. It's simply wrong.</s>LEMON: So you don't look at this as a civil rights issue, right?</s>BROWN: It's not a civil rights issue to try to redefine our most fundamental and most basic institutions. No.</s>LEMON: OK. All right, Daniel, go ahead. I'm sorry I cut you off there.</s>O'DONNELL: Well, the Supreme Court has ruled that marriage is one of our fundamental rights. In the end, this is not a question about anything other than equality. The state issues licenses. And they issue licenses to people and they're called marriage licenses. I'm not seeking a marriage in a church. I'm not seeking a pew in a synagogue. I'm not seeking anything from any religion. The cases that they have constantly referenced are not cases under the marriage law. There isn't marriage in Illinois. And so if, in fact, people want to change the human rights laws or the discrimination laws, they should make proposals in legislative bodies to do that. Me getting a license has no impact on that, and they know that.</s>LEMON: Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Daniel, finish, and then Brian -- it's going to have to be quickly because I'm going way over here.</s>BROWN: OK.</s>LEMON: Wrap up your point, Daniel.</s>O'DONNELL: They know that and there's no impact.</s>LEMON: OK, Brian, go ahead.</s>LEMON: Brian, go ahead. It's the last word.</s>BROWN: -- impact. I encourage people to go and read the letter on our web site at nationformarriage.org. This is an impact. There's a huge impact on religious liberty. And, look, this isn't a question of expanding marriage. This is a question of fundamentally redefining marriage and saying that people like me and our organizations are the functional equivalent of pagans.</s>LEMON: OK, listen, we've got to go.</s>LEMON: We've got to go. I'm sorry, Brian and I'm not cutting you off for any other reason except for time. So Brian and Daniel, we can continue this conversation for a very long time. But I appreciate you both coming on. Thank you so much. I hope our viewers learn from this. It's going to be a really huge issue coming up on Monday. They're going to vote on it. And when we come right back, we'll take you to beautiful Aspen, Colorado, for the Food and Wine Festival with one of the world's most top chefs.