Interview With National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Director Dr. Anthony Fauci; Interview With Gov. Mike DeWine (R-OH)
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Growing pandemic. Coronavirus spreads across the U.S., as the Trump administration promises to increase testing.</s>DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: We have not reached our peak. We will see more suffering and death.</s>KEILAR: Is the U.S. prepared for how much worse it could get? I will speak to one of the president's Coronavirus Task Force leaders, Dr. Anthony Fauci, next. And on edge. The deadly virus stokes fear and transforms American life.</s>BILL DE BLASIO (D), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: It seems to me we're in the middle of a war here.</s>GOV. MIKE DEWINE (R-OH): Everything we're doing is to try to save lives.</s>KEILAR: How long will this be the new normal? Ohio Governor Mike DeWine and New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio join me to discuss in moments.</s>KEILAR: Hello. I'm Brianna Keilar, in for Jake Tapper in Washington, where the state of our union is adjusting to the changes in our daily lives. Upwards of 2,800 people have now been diagnosed with coronavirus, and more than 59 have died, as the outbreak spreads across the United States and public health officials warn things will get worse. To combat the spread, schools in almost two dozen states are closed. Large public gatherings are widely forbidden. And people are wondering which of the normal activities are safe to continue. In Europe, authorities are sharply limiting public life. France closed all restaurants and cafes, while people in Spain are restricted from even leaving their homes. President Trump has declared a national emergency to combat coronavirus. And, this week, the Senate will consider a House-passed relief bill that offers paid emergency leave and makes coronavirus tests free for those who can get them. The administration is working to ramp up a severe shortfall of those tests, as experts look ahead to what could be the next crisis, whether the U.S. will be able to treat all the people who could become gravely ill. And joining me now is a leader on the president's Coronavirus Task Force, the nation's top infectious disease doctor, Anthony Fauci. Sir, thank you so much for joining us.</s>FAUCI: Good to be with you.</s>KEILAR: So, one week ago, we were reporting 19 deaths, 490 infected. Today, the count is at least 60 deaths, almost 3,000 infected. And you say, as we heard, that the virus may continue to get worse for another two months. There have been estimates of hundreds of thousands of people in the U.S. who could die or, in the worst-case scenario, millions. Can you tell the American people that that is possible?</s>FAUCI: It's possible because, when you do a model, you have a worst- case scenario, the best-case scenario, and the reality is, how you react to that will depend where you're going to be on that curve. So, obviously, we are clearly going to have more infections. There's going to be more problems with regard to morbidity and mortality. The challenge we have right now is, how do we blunt that? You know, I have said many times, if you just leave it alone and let the virus to its own devices, it'll go way up, and then it'll come down naturally over a period of several weeks. Unfortunately, for our colleagues in Italy and in France and certainly in China, that's what happened. Our challenge right now is to do two things, is to prevent the new influx of cases, hence, the travel restrictions, and, for what we're dealing with right now is to know that we're going to get more infections, but blunt it, so that we don't have that sharp peak, that we have more of a smaller hump. Even with that, we're going to have people getting infected. But we need to try and get there, as opposed to there.</s>KEILAR: I do think one of the important points of illustrating for people the number of people who could die is that it really makes it clear to them why it's so important to do what they should be doing, so -- to stem the tide of this. Are you thinking that hundreds of thousands of Americans could die from this?</s>FAUCI: I say that, and it sometimes gets taken out of context, but we have to be realistic and honest. Yes, it is possible. Our job, our challenge is to try and make that not happen. But to think, if we go about our daily lives and not worry about everything, that it's not going to happen, it could happen. And it could be worse. To me, that's a real impetus to take very seriously the kinds of things -- I might make a point that people sometimes think that you're overreacting. I like it when people are thinking, I'm overreacting, because that means we're doing it just right.</s>KEILAR: On Friday, Italy reported there were 250 people who died just in a 24-hour period. And, according to "The New York Times," there's a Seattle area hospital that sent a memo out saying -- quote -- "Our local COVID-19 trajectory is likely to be similar to that of Northern Italy." Is that what you're expecting?</s>FAUCI: No, if we do not successfully do what I just said, prevent infections from coming in and dealing with the ones we have, this is a bad virus. Certainly, it is conceivable that, if we don't do that, you could get as bad as Italy. But I don't think we're going there if we do the kinds of things that we are publicly saying we need to do, we need to be very serious about. For a while, life is not going to be the way it used to be in the United States. We have to just accept that if we want to do what's best for the American public.</s>KEILAR: To that point, in cities all over the country, bars and restaurants have been packed with people. This was the case last night.</s>FAUCI: Right.</s>KEILAR: This was the case in many places in Washington, D.C. And a new study suggests that it's young Americans who aren't really showing the symptoms that could really be spreading this and putting older Americans in jeopardy, more so than we realize. Would you like to see a national lockdown, basically, people, you can't go out to restaurants, bars, you need to stay home?</s>FAUCI: Well, I would like to see a dramatic diminution of the personal interaction that we see in restaurants and in bars. Whatever it takes to do that, that's what I'd like to see.</s>KEILAR: OK. And for younger people, maybe they're not as concerned. But, in France, 300 of the most critical patients, half of them are actually under 50. So, understandably, we're focused on the elderly, but should younger people actually be more concerned too?</s>FAUCI: Younger people should be concerned for two reasons. You are not immune or safe from getting seriously ill, even though, when you look at the total numbers, it's overwhelmingly weighted towards the elderly and those with underlying conditions. But the virus isn't a mathematical formula. There are going to be people who were young who are going to wind up getting seriously ill. So, protect yourself. But, remember, you could also be a vector or a carrier. And even though you don't get seriously ill, you could bring it to a person who would bring it to a person that would bring it to your grandfather, your grandmother, or your elderly relative. That's why you -- everybody's got to take this seriously, even the young.</s>KEILAR: You said lessening of social interaction. Well, let's take a look at these pictures, actually, of Americans trying to get back into the country from Europe last night. I mean, the -- we have seen these images at a number of airports, crowded lines for health screenings. What is your first thought when you see that?</s>FAUCI: That -- unfortunate, that that's not what we like to see, but human nature is human nature. People should realize, if you are an American citizen, if you are a permanent resident, if you are a relative, you can get back into the country. You don't need to get back right now. You can pace getting back. But we're all humans. We all are afraid, I mean, and it's understandable. I'm not criticizing it. Somehow, we need to mitigate, because that -- putting people in crowds like that is not helpful.</s>KEILAR: Should they be spaced?</s>FAUCI: You know...</s>KEILAR: Should officials be spacing them better in these locations?</s>FAUCI: If you -- if you can possibly -- I mean, I'm not going to make policy here with you.</s>KEILAR: Sure.</s>FAUCI: But if you can possibly lessen that crowding one way or the other, we should do it.</s>KEILAR: So, I want to ask you about testing, because members of Congress were told on Thursday that 11,000 people had been tested. At this point, how many Americans have been tested for coronavirus? Do you know?</s>FAUCI: You know, it's several thousand. But the thing we really got to focus on, if you look back, we would have liked it to have been a little bit more different than it was.</s>KEILAR: Sure.</s>FAUCI: Let's look forward, because what I really liked about the other day is that we now have the private sector, the big heavy hitters that are involved in making sure, starting very soon -- and I'm talking about days to a week -- we're going to see a revving up of the availability and the implementation. Saying a test is available isn't the end game -- saying it's not only available, but you can actually get it.</s>KEILAR: OK. And so, if you're exhibiting any of the range of symptoms, will you be able to get the test, and when?</s>FAUCI: You know, it depends. I mean, I can't say every individual -- if you have symptoms, stay home, first thing. Call up your health care provider. Explain what's going on. Figure out a way how you can get a test. And I think, as the days and weeks go by, the ability to get a test is going to be infinitely better than it was several weeks ago.</s>KEILAR: At the news conference that you held on Friday, President Trump said that Google was working on a Web site that very quickly would help Americans get access to tests. Well, apparently, that was news to Google. They're now working with the government. But officials in California told my colleague Jake Tapper they were actually stunned to hear the president say this, because they had a pilot program that was set to launch next week only in California or part of California. And they were going to present it to the Trump administration. But there was not this nationwide initiative ready to go.</s>FAUCI: We have conflated two things there that are confusing. Google and their Web site that gives you instructions about where and how you can get a test is different from the availability of tests, OK? So, the Google right now that we're talking about, we have a Web site up, and will be information, and it's kind of a pilot. But, still, apart from that, having the test available in commercial places where you can get it are not absolutely went to Google's Web site. You could still get tested if their Web site isn't up the way it should be.</s>KEILAR: I understand. But if the president is essentially saying that Google has a Web site, or is putting tremendous resources towards a Web site that is going to give people this information...</s>FAUCI: Right.</s>KEILAR: ... and that isn't the case...</s>FAUCI: Right.</s>KEILAR: ... how can American people -- how can the American people trust that an effective response is being run if they're being directed to incorrect information?</s>FAUCI: Yes. Yes, I think the issue is, that's not the only way you're going to wind up knowing where to get -- you get on the phone. Your doctor will be connected to the Walmarts and that CVSes and the other places where you will be able to get it. So, having the heavy-hitter commercials involved is helped by a Web site that can tell you where to go, but you could still get it apart from the Web site.</s>KEILAR: The CVS and -- CVS and Walgreens were also surprised by sort of the promise that was coming from the president...</s>FAUCI: Right.</s>KEILAR: ... about the availability of drive-through testing. Where's the communication? Because, clearly, the leadership, the communication is a prescription in itself.</s>FAUCI: Yes.</s>KEILAR: Where's the -- where's the stumbling block here?</s>FAUCI: No, the -- the ultimate goal is to get to a drive-through. Are we going to have it tomorrow? Unlikely. But we will have a much greater availability and implementation of testing in the very, very near future? The answer is yes. It's going to be different next week than it was four weeks ago. That's for sure.</s>KEILAR: Are there going to be enough ventilators for what is coming?</s>FAUCI: It depends on what you mean by what's coming. Right now, we have 12,700 ventilators in the stockpile. We will use the stockpile as needed. We will be able hopefully to backfill the stockpile as best as we can. Remember, when you talk about, will we have enough, it depends on what we just spoke about, the worst-case scenario, the best-case scenario, somewhere in the middle. If you're talking about a situation like Italy, if you get a situation like Italy, which I hope and don't think is going to happen, you have to be prepared for it, that an outbreak, a pandemic like this could overwhelm any system in the world, no matter how good it is. So, the job is to try and make sure we don't get to that worst-case scenario.</s>KEILAR: Because there may not be enough ventilators...</s>FAUCI: If you get to a worst-case scenario, you have got to be realistic. There might not be. Let me get back and emphasize, the job is to put a full-court press on not allowing the worst-case scenario to occur.</s>KEILAR: What does that look like if there's not enough vent -- if we get to that point where there's not enough ventilators, then what are we seeing?</s>FAUCI: I mean, if you don't have enough ventilators, that means, obvious, that people who need it will not be able to get it.</s>KEILAR: And they will die?</s>FAUCI: And that's when you're going to have to make some very tough decisions. My colleagues in Italy, who I know well -- I trained many of them who've been in our group here -- they're making very tough decisions. Hopefully, we never get to that point. They are there. It's terrible. You don't want to be in a position to have to make those choices. They have to make them.</s>KEILAR: I want to take a look at this picture. You actually touched the same podium -- I'm sure you have seen this -- and microphone as the president and other CEOs. Even, at the same time, the vice president has taken a test for coronavirus. He tested negative -- or the president has tested negative, I should say. Has Vice President Pence? Have you taken a test? Are you going to take a test?</s>FAUCI: No. No. Well, I'm not taking a test for the simple reason I have no symptoms. I have not -- I'm practicing pretty good social distance. I don't get to...</s>KEILAR: But it's hard to...</s>FAUCI: I know.</s>KEILAR: It's hard to fully do it, as we see...</s>FAUCI: But not everybody in the United States should take a test. I mean, I have no symptoms. There's no reason for me to take a test. If I'm in a situation where I'm at a higher risk, I will take a test. The picture you showed about the microphone, let's get real here. I mean, there are certain things that you have to do. If I left the microphone at that, you would see nothing but the microphone. My putting my two fingers to get the microphone down isn't that bad. So, I don't think we should make something of that. I'd like to see people more doing this, as opposed to shaking hands.</s>KEILAR: Well, we are not going to shake hands, although I am very grateful that you're here today, Dr. Fauci.</s>KEILAR: Thank you so much.</s>FAUCI: OK. Good to be with you.</s>KEILAR: And my next guest is bracing for a dramatic coronavirus increase in his state. Ohio's governor on his aggressive approach to stopping the spread -- next.