Safer or Scared?  Impact of the War on Terror
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: The Bush administration contends that its war against terrorism has made the world safer. But Amnesty International doesn't see it that way. In its annual report on human rights abuses around the world, the group charges that the U.S. is denying rights of people arrested in the war against terror, that thousands were detained from the war in Afghanistan, in defiance of international humanitarian law and Amnesty International says that foreign nationals arrested in the U.S. have been deprived of legal safeguards. The group also contends that while U.S. forces fought to topple Saddam Hussein, the Bush administration ignored growing human rights abuses elsewhere in the world. Well, Amnesty International's U.S. Executive Director William Schulz is here and so is Gary Bauer, who is -- has an opposing view. He is president and former president -- president of American Values, the group, and former presidential candidate.</s>GARY BAUER, PRES., AMERICAN VALUES: Hi, Judy.</s>WOODRUFF: Gary Bauer, good to see you.</s>BAUER: Good to see you.</s>WOODRUFF: Mr. Schulz, good to see you. Let me begin with you, Mr. Schulz. You are arguing in essence that the war in Iraq, the war on terror, has taken the attention of the United States and this administration off of human rights abuses. But wouldn't you agree that Saddam himself -- Saddam Hussein himself presented an enormous example of human rights abuses?</s>WILLIAM SCHULZ, EXEC. DIR., AMNESTY INTL. USA: Absolutely, and Amnesty International had criticized Saddam for 20 years, long before the United States and the United Kingdom and any one else was paying any attention. Absolutely. And there's great promise for improvement in human rights in Iraq. The issue is how else we are fighting this war on terror. When the United States itself engages in racial profiling in its choices of who to detain when it at least is accused of rendering prisoners to countries that torture them in order to get information; when it refuses the basic human right of a right to counsel to U.S. citizens, as it is doing with Padilla and Hamdi; when indeed in Guantanamo it ignores the requirement of the Geneva Convention that their status as prisoners of war or as unlawful combatants be determined by a competent tribunal -- whenever the United States violates human rights itself, it does two things: first, it makes it harder for moderate Muslims to support the war on terror; and second it gives excuses to countries like china to be themselves human rights violators.</s>WOODRUFF: Take those points, Gary Bauer.</s>BAUER: There's so many of them. I mean, first of all, thugs and tyrants don't need excuses to suppress their people. They do that regardless of what the United States does. If one is concerned about human rights and hate crimes, et cetera, you don't have to go further than 9/11, when 3,000 Americans were killed simply because they were Americans. The bush administration's reaction to that could have been to issue an annual report the way Amnesty International does. That would have accomplished nothing. Instead, we declared war on terrorism. It was the right thing to do. And quite frankly, for Amnesty International to blame the U.S. for the fallout from that war is a lot like blaming firemen, instead of the fire for the damage caused by the conflagration.</s>WOODRUFF: Mr. Schulz?</s>SCHULZ: Amnesty International is not criticizing the war on terror in and of itself by any means. We condemned unequivocally the 9/11 events. That is a horrific human rights violation. The right to security is a basic human right.</s>WOODRUFF: But you're criticizing what hasn't happened as a result of that.</s>SCHULZ: We are criticizing the way in which -- some of the ways in which that particular war has been carried out. And the reality, Gary, is that China has cited the United States' war on terror as a reason to crack down on weaker (ph) Muslims. And you yourself, as one of the champions of human rights for Chinese, ought to be speaking out against the Chinese government using the excuse of the U.S. action...</s>BAUER: What I have always done is spoken out against the Chinese government, who was oppressing Muslims, long before the United States had a war on terror. The fact of the matter is that this report, no matter how you dress it up, is another perfect example of blame the United States first. The report even says we are responsible for the United Nations' Human Rights Commission failing to do their job, when, Judy, I think you know that commission has become a haven for the very thugs that are oppressing people.</s>WOODRUFF: Mr. Schulz, couldn't you have made -- couldn't have Amnesty International have made the point it made without directing so much criticism at the Bush administration's leadership?</s>SCHULZ: Let's me be very clear. This report criticizes 140 countries around the world. This is a report that is comprehensive in its analysis of the human rights violations of countries from every corner of this globe. Obviously, only one portion of it, certainly a portion that we're responsible for here, in the United States, is the implications of U.S. policy for human rights. That's, of course, what we're talking about.</s>BAUER: Judy, you're talking about excuses. I'll tell you what this report will be an excuse for. It will be an excuse for American- haters from one end of the globe to the other. Maybe it mentions 140 countries. But in Europe and a good bit of the Middle East an in Asia, Amnesty International will be cited as evidence that somehow the United States is the bad guy in the war on terror.</s>WOODRUFF: Very quick response...</s>SCHULZ: Let me just say two things. First of all, President Bush himself cited Amnesty International in his reasons for going to war in Iraq. So the president must think we're a pretty reliable source.</s>SCHULZ: And second of all, believe me, the world doesn't need Amnesty International's report to be critical of the United States, as Bill Schneider's report on world opinion a few minutes ago just showed.</s>BAUER: Right, but it seems to Amnesty International has piled on once again. I would like to see reports about what we are going to do to deal with the thugs that are preying on this country.</s>SCHULZ: Just read the whole report and it's right in there.</s>WOODRUFF: We're going to have to leave it there. Gary Bauer, William Schulz, it's god to see you both.</s>WOODRUFF: We thanks you for coming by to talk about this.</s>BAUER: Thank you.</s>WOODRUFF: Thank you very much. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com