President Trump Rattled by Latest Mueller Move; Trump Tells Reuters He Is Worried About Perjury Trap; Trump's Evolution Worries Old Guard
ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN HOST: The pope finally speaks out, a full week after a report that 300 predator priests had prayed on children at Catholic churches and Pennsylvania. Plus, the U.S. has nicknamed the Mueller probe a witch hunt and now says he could run investigation if he wanted to, just the latest on Donald Trump's attacks on the special counsel. And later, the lucky few, some families torn apart by the Korean War are reunited for a few hours of joy. Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from around the world. I'm Rosemary Church, and this is CNN Newsroom. The pope's message on the churches sex abuse crisis is unprecedented, but some survivors groups say it's just not enough. In his letter to all Catholics, the pope admitted with shame and repentance, the church's failure to take action against clerics abusing minors. His message follows last week's grand jury report in Pennsylvania. The report detailed decades of alleged abuse by predator priests. Barbie Nadeau joins us now from Rome with the latest on this. And Barbie, there has be a lot of criticism over the time it's taken the pope to respond to this grand jury report, and to too many words and too little action?</s>BARBIE NADEAU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Rosemary. I think the victims groups especially wanted to see something a little bit more concrete coming from the pope on this, He does speak about trying to get rid of that culture that provides opportunities for bishops and cardinals to move around, those predator priests. He's talked, you know, getting rid of the culture or stopping the culture that allows the abuse to happen in the first place, but he doesn't talk about how he is going to do that. One of the things that victims groups have been demanding is that the Vatican here in Rome and that the various diocese across the world open up their secret archives, because they've got complaints they say from the parishioners throughout the years, and that is something the victims really want, and that's something the pope failed to mention, Rosemary.</s>CHURCH: And we know that in the United States, about 2800 Catholics have signed an online petition to call on the pope to get the resignations of the bishops here in America. How likely is it that he would even consider that?</s>NADEAU: Well, you know, in the past, this pope has accepted resignations, we saw in Chile, we've seen in other places but he hasn't demanded resignations, and I think those victims groups would really like to see a strong action like that for the pope to say listen, you cardinals you bishops who were complicit in the cover up need to step down now, instead of waiting for them to do the right thing and resign. And that's may be a small talking point, but it would mean a lot to the victims, Rosemary.</s>CHURCH: Does the pope himself in his letter, he mentioned the need to change the culture within the Catholic Church, but he didn't say exactly how that might be done, could we expect to hear more from him on this topic? His visit of course to Ireland won't make this go away?</s>NADEAU: That's right, and you know, I think he is really looking at trying to defuse some of the scandal of the situation in the United States before he goes to Ireland, because he has a whole set, different set of problems to face there within the Irish Catholic Church, which has its own problems. And you know, for the pope to lay out some sort of new plan, and how the church is run, seems very, very unlikely at this point. This is not what this visit is about, and it's really not how this pope does business. He has a group of cardinals he considers his closest allies, and no doubt that's where that kind of direction would come from, that they would come up with a plan, a new set of protocols, a new set of rules in order to try to stop this cover- up, try to stop the secrecy, and try to allow some transparency. Rosemary?</s>CHURCH: Barbie Nadeau bringing us up to date on the story from Rome, where it's just after nine in the morning, thank you so much. Well, years of allegations on the church's inaction have shaken churchgoers, as well as abuse survivors' faith. Shaun Dougherty's abuse by a priest in Pennsylvania began when he was just 10 years old. He says his faith was based on his parents believes.</s>SHAUN DOUGHERTY, ABUSE SURVIVOR: My faith was more I would say a hope, I was taught, I went through theology classes so I was certainly taught the gospel. I certainly went to church every Sunday with my very devout Catholic family. However, mine is more of a hope. I just I really can't wrap my head around how not only how people question that I question my faith. I question that the church leaders question the faith, how can these men possibly believe that they are going to stand in judgment of God one day? I find it hard to believe sometimes, you know, so I struggle with something that is question constantly in my life.</s>CHURCH: And later in this half hour, we will hear from Father Thomas Reese, of the religion news service on the calls for punishment for the bishops who covered up the abuse. We turn to U.S. politics now. Donald Trump says he would consider lifting U.S. sanctions on Russia if they did something that would be good for us. It's just one of several headlines from an Oval Office interview with Reuters News Agency. The U.S. president says so far, he has decided to stay out of special counsel Robert Mueller's probe into Russian interference in the U.S. election, but Mr. Trump says he could run the investigation if he wants. CNN spoke with Reuters White House correspondent Jeff Mason about that interview.</s>JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: He talked about the probe, he said again that it was a witch hunt, in fact, he interrupted us when we started the question, to be clear that that's how he viewed it. But his, I mean, this quote is getting a lot of attention, with good reason, but he actually the run-up to that quote as he said he was staying out of it, and that it was better if he did. So it's interesting, he was making it clear that he viewed it as a decision, and that he made the decision to stay out, but it wasn't the only option that he had.</s>CHURCH: And joining me now is CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Page Pate. Always good to see you. PAGE PATE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST Thank you.</s>CHURCH: Now we learned from President trump's exclusive Reuters interview that he is worried he could be caught in a perjury trap if he agrees for an interview with special counsel Robert Mueller, a concern that his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani has raised many times. Why would he be concerned about being caught in a lie if he just tells the truth?</s>PATE: Well, it does seem simple. That I think every lawyer would advise their client not to sit down for an interview like this, if there is even the possibility that someone ether in your administration or in your campaign, who has already been interviewed by the investigators may have said something different. Now it's not easy to prove perjury in federal court. You don't just have to show that the person made a misstatement or said something incorrect, but that they intended to lie and then have that lie and pay the investigation in some way. So while perjury is difficult to prove it's always the safest course for the lawyer to say hey, don't go in there and submit to the interview unless you absolutely have to do it. So, I know Giuliani said the truth isn't the truth, and of course it is, but you can have very different versions of a particular meeting or a phone call, and if the president is not going to be prosecuted for collusion, and the big concern is obstruction, I think it is smart legal strategy not to agree to an interview.</s>CHURCH: Right. And the president did not say whether he would agree to an interview with Robert Mueller, and of course, it doesn't sound like his legal team wants him to do it, how likely is it that Mr. Trump will ever sit down and answer Mueller's questions?</s>PATE: I don't think he is going to do it, Rosemary, and I've been saying that for a while. I mean, not only do we see his lawyers advising him not to do it, but we see Trump in the media and on Twitter criticizing the investigation, trying to undercut the credibility of Robert Mueller and the other people on the special counsel's team, so that he'll have cover. At the end of the day, when he says look, there was nothing to see here. The whole thing was a witch hunt, why would I submit to additional questions, when we have been so cooperative? We provided documents. They've talked to my White House counsel for 30 plus hours. So I think he is been building a defense for himself to say at the end of the day, he does not want to sit down for an interview.</s>CHURCH: Right. And Mr. Trump has accused Mueller and his team of being biased, but he declined in this exclusive interview to say whether he would stripped Mueller of his security clearance, as he did with former CIA director John Brennan and as he has threatened to do others. What would happen if he did go ahead and strip Mueller of his security clearance, does he have the power to do that?</s>PATE: He has the power to do it, yes, just as he has the power to fire the FBI director. The issue in this entire investigation is he using that power in an inappropriate way? In other words, does he have a corrupt intent? And that's the heart of an obstruction case. So if now he is trying to do something to impede Mueller's investigation, or something to retaliate against Mueller, even proactively, that could be construed as obstruction. So, I think doing that presents more jeopardy than simply letting the investigation continue and draw to a conclusion at some point.</s>CHURCH: Right. We'll see what happens there. And of course, both Paul Manafort and Michael Cohen are in legal jeopardy. What impact will their legal parts likely have on the president going forward?</s>PATE: Well, we'll see, and perhaps sooner or rather than later. I mean, Paul Manafort's jury is still deliberating the case, there is always the possibility that if Manafort is convicted, there can be an attempt for him to cooperate and provide information to the special counsel even after the trial. Now that's very unusual. But this is not the only trial that Paul Manafort faces, he has another trial here in D.C. coming up almost as soon as the one in Virginia is over with. So there's more exposure for Manafort, he still has the opportunity perhaps to cut a deal and testify. The same for Michael Cohen, who may very well be charged later this month with financial crimes that relate primarily to his private business, but the government I believe is also interested in the time he spent with the Trump campaign. And so, if he has information there that he can use to perhaps help himself, lower his potential sentence, he may very well try to strike a deal and testify, or at least cooperate against the president.</s>CHURCH: Page Pate, always great to have your legal analysis. We appreciate it here at CNN. Thank you.</s>PATE: Thank you, Rosemary.</s>CHURCH: Well, source say the president is privately rattled about what his White House counsel, Don McGahn, may have told Robert Mueller's investigators. CNN's Kaitlan Collins has the latest.</s>KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: President Trump rattled after learning that White House counsel Don McGahn spoke with investigators from the special counsel's office for more than 30 hours, but never provided a full readout of what he told them. Trump attempted to downplay the revelation on Twitter, noting that he approved the sit down, as he had lashed out at Robert Mueller for questioning McGahn for so long. Writing, "Anybody meeting that much time when they know there is no Russian collusion, is just someone looking for trouble." Sources tell CNN Trump wasn't aware of just how long McGahn's interviews lasted until the New York Times published a report this weekend detailing his extensive cooperation. While publicly blaming Mueller, Trump privately complaining to allies that the report made him look weak. McGahn is at the center of several incidents Mueller is examining, including Trump's attempt to fire the special counsel last summer. Trump has often blurred the line on what McGahn's role is, believing at times that he is representing him, when really he is representing the presidency. Asked today if the meeting were a mistake, McGahn staying silent.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. McGahn, was it a mistake to have you speak without limits to special counsel Mueller?</s>COLLINS: The president's agitation growing after the legal team is scrambling to figure out what McGahn said, since he has never asked for a full debrief. Rudy Giuliani admitting he is relying on what Trump's former attorney John Dowd told him.</s>RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: I'll use his words rather than mine, that McGahn was a strong witness for the president, so I don't need to know much more about that.</s>COLLINS: But Dowd resigned from the legal team five months ago. Chris Christie blasting the decision to allow McGahn to sit down with the special counsel voluntarily.</s>FORMER GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: This shows what a C-level legal team the president had at the beginning, in Ty Cobb and John Dowd, once you waive that privilege, you turn over those documents, Don McGahn has no choice then but to go in and answer everything. Every question they can ask him. And this is not in the presidents interests.</s>COLLINS: With all the news about McGahn, the White House is attempting to portray the relationship between President Trump and Don McGahn as ironclad, but President Trump himself dictating a statement that Sarah Sanders issued that the two of them have a great working relationship. In reality, it's been much more tortured than that going back between when the president complaining about Don McGahn, and the two of them going months without speaking to each other one-on-one, and weeks without speaking to each other at all, so the president complementing McGahn and liking the work that he is done with the courts. But the bottom line is this is the White House struggling to get on top of the message, that even President Trump himself doesn't know all the details of. Kaitlan Collins, CNN, the White House.</s>CHURCH: Well, Microsoft says it has foiled a hacking attempt by Russian military intelligence targeting the U.S. Senate and conservative think tanks. The company says a group known as Fancy Bear was behind the attack, that's the same group that hacked the Democratic National Committee in 2016. Microsoft president Brad Smith said this in a statement, "Attackers want their attacks to look as realistic as possible, and they therefore create web sites and URLs that look like sites their targeted victims would expect to receive e-mails from or visit. The site is involved in last week's order fit this description." Well, as the world waits to see whether the Taliban will agree to a holiday ceasefire, we are getting reports of an attack in the Afghan capital. We'll have details on that on the other side of the break. Plus, it is the meeting of a lifetime, emotional Korean reunions are happening now, but only for a lucky few. The head of the U.N. would like to see that change. We're live in Seoul after the break.