Interview with U.S. Congressman Adam Kinzinger of Illinois.
SMERCONISH: Welcome back. Defense Secretary Ashton Carter spoke candidly recently about the weak state of Iraq's military, the country's deep rooted turmoil has had a significant impact on efforts to build a military leaving it in other disarray. This despite U.S. efforts to train Iraqi forces to better prepare themselves for the war against ISIS. Much of the discord however lies in the fact that the country doesn't even exist as a unified state due in large part to a deep sectarian divide. Let's get more on this from Congressman Adam Kinzinger. He served in the Air Force in both Iraq and Afghanistan and was among the first members of Congress to call for air strikes against ISIS. Congressman, I'm starting to have a humpty-dumpty view of Iraq. If you remember, all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put humpty together, again. Is the answer partition?</s>REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R), ILLINOIS: I don't think it is. There's a lot of problems with partition. Number one, oil wealth is not spread uniformly through Sunni and Shia areas, as well as Kurdish areas. You know, there's a lot of differences. You have, obviously, some Shia in Sunni areas. Some Sunni in Shia areas. I think partition is probably an overly simplified way of fixing a problem that would only really make it worse. And plus, you think about the fact, too, other countries that are being held together and have different populations, what's going to do any sectarian in those countries? So, I actually think the problem could end up being a lot worse. This is a lot like '05 and '06, when we were sitting around and saying in Iraq that there was no way to fix this problem. This was just going to be a mess. We need to roll up the carpet and go home. Well, at the end of the day, we did see some success when we added 20,000 troops, yes, but it was mostly the engagement of the Sunni population, the disaffected Sunni population. So, I think there is still a way to salvage it. But again, every day that goes by, every, you know, Shia person that commits violence. Every Sunni ISIS that commits violence, it just makes that divide even greater.</s>SMERCONISH: Isn't one of the differences between '05 and '06 where we are now is you have ISIS taking credit for bombings outside of Iraq and you have ISIS seemingly trying to govern and they have become the caliphate that they wish to be, no?</s>KINZINGER: They are doing, in essence, what al Qaeda did except now, again, it's projected, as you mentioned, outside of Iraq. We're talking now into Saudi Arabia. Potentially Jordan now is looking at concerns. Lebanon. This is a very big problem. That's why I think the answer to this is not, I mean, a lot of things we need to do in Iraq, but I think we have to deal a devastating blow to ISIS somewhere because what's happening right now -- you know, kids who are in their parents' basement getting radicalized on the Internet. They want to join the cause. They see a bunch of dudes shooting AK-47s, running around through a town and they want to do that for Islam. But if we show them that joining is does not mean fighting for a cause, it means a good chance you'll die, people don't typically join causes to be martyrs. They maybe willing to martyr themselves, but if they see that that chance of martyrdom is very, very high, they're less likely to join. So, that's why I think that's very imperative.</s>SMERCONISH: How personally difficult is it for you, having fought over there to see these ISIS gains of territory, that Americans once thought to control?</s>KINZINGER: You know, it's devastating and frankly, it's heartbreaking. Just, you know, the Iraqi people are really good people actually. And they're folks just like our families, just want to raise kids and kids have dreams and hopes of becoming something when they grow up. It's the same in Iraq. And to see this happening is devastating. And to know, you know, so many thousands of soldiers that gave their lives and I just had a small part of flying an airplane in Iraq and doing what I could there. It's devastating to me and devastating frankly to the family who gave up loved ones to bring this kind of freedom to Iraq that unfortunately seems to be falling through their hands.</s>SMERCONISH: Did you see evidence of a lack of will on the part of the Iraqis when were you there?</s>KINZINGER: I really didn't. You know, it took a while to organize the Iraqi military. I think we all understand we made mistake in the de-Baathification and disbanding the Iraqi military right after the invasion, but it seems like we put good leaders in place, we had Sunni and Shia leaders in place. And soldiers follow good leaders. And I think that's the untold story here. People say, you know, there's not a will of the Iraqi military to fight. Maybe that's true by and large. But the Iraqi ground soldiers are out fighting. A lot of times they are running out of ammunition, they see their leaders run away. And you know what? Even the United States military, if we saw our leaders running away, it would be hard to stay together and continue the fight. Thankfully, we have great leaders and great officers.</s>SMERCONISH: Congressman Kinzinger, great to finally get you on the program. Thank you for that.</s>KINZINGER: You bet. It was great. Thank you.</s>SMERCONISH: See you soon.</s>KINZINGER: You bet.</s>SMERCONISH: Coming up, with Pope Francis's approval rating at an all time high among Catholics in American, he could have a major impact on the outcome of the presidential race. I'll explain.