Biden Defends 1994 Crime Bill as Trump, 2020 Dems Pounce; Voicemail from Trump's Attorney to Flynn's Lawyer Released.
TAPPER: In our 2020 lead today, former Vice President Joe Biden facing lingering questions about his authorship of the 1994 crime bill. And as Jeff Zeleny now reports, it's an issue Biden will not be able to avoid, certainly not when he shares the stage with his opponents at debates in just a few weeks.</s>JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Joe Biden is defending what many Democrats now see as all but indefensible -- the 1994 crime bill.</s>JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When I wrote the crime bill, which you have been conditioned to say is a bad bill --</s>ZELENY: That bill is now one of the heaviest potential weights around his 2020 candidacy. One of the biggest points of contention is this long-held believed Biden is still holding on to.</s>BIDEN: This idea that the crime bill generated mass incarceration, it did not generate mass incarceration.</s>ZELENY: His rivals have rushed to disagree, teeing up a likely conflict at their first debate only three weeks away.</s>SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That 1994 crime bill, it did contribute to mass incarceration in our country.</s>ZELENY: But 25 years ago this summer --</s>BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT: Let us roll up our sleeves to roll back this awful tide of violence.</s>ZELENY: The bill was a compromise between Democrats and Republicans, supported by many members of the Congressional Black Caucus, big city black mayors and clergy leaders alarmed at soaring crime rates. So what did the crime bill do? Formerly known as the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, the bill was a sweeping $30 billion package, which put 100,000 new police officers on the streets, created the Violence Against Women Act and an assault weapons ban. The bill also expanded the federal death penalty and created dramatically harsher sentencing laws, including three strikes -- mandatory life terms for people with at least three federal violent crimes or drug convictions. One of the most controversial aspects, granting states billions to build prisons if they pass their own tough sentencing laws with mandatory minimums. But those state laws incentivized by the federal government are what critics say helped contribute to an era of mass incarceration. Four years ago as Hillary Clinton faced blistering criticism for the bill, President Clinton apologized.</s>CLINTON: Because I signed a bill that made the problem worse. And I want to admit it.</s>ZELENY: That is far more than Biden has said. As chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, he proudly took ownership of it.</s>BIDEN: A guy name Biden wrote that bill and wrote that bill by going down and sitting down with the president of the United States of America.</s>ZELENY: This year, Biden has tried reconciling some of his tough on crime views.</s>BIDEN: I haven't always been right. I know we haven't always gotten things right. But I've always tried.</s>ZELENY: President Trump is now inserting himself into the debate saying on Twitter: African-Americans will not be able to vote for you. I, on the other hand, was responsible for criminal justice reform. What Trump doesn't say is decades ago, he promoted similar policies on crime.</s>TRUMP: The problem with our society is that the victim has absolutely no rights and the criminal has unbelievable rights.</s>ZELENY: Now, Joe Biden is not the only Democratic presidential candidate who voted for the crime bill. Bernie Sanders, then in the House, voted for it, but he said he did so because it had the Violence Against Women Act in it. Governor Jay Inslee of Washington also voted for it. He was serving in the House as well. He's since expressed regret for it. But, Jake, inside the Biden organization, there is a discussion going on if he needs to have more of a frank conversation here about the consequences of the crime bill. He's been defending it. One thing is clear: 25 years after it was signed, it's now a part of this debate as well.</s>TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much.</s>ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.</s>TAPPER: We have breaking news in our politics lead. For the first time, we are hearing the audio of a voicemail from President Trump's former lawyer John Dowd to his fired national security adviser Michael Flynn's lawyer. A key witness in special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation, Flynn was. CNN crime and justice reporter Shimon Prokupecz joins me now. And, Shimon, we're now hearing this voice mail for the first time?</s>SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes, for the first time, we're hearing the president's former personal attorney John Dowd in a phone call to Michael Flynn's attorney that was part of the obstruction investigation where he was asking about Flynn's potential cooperation with the special counsel. And here's that voice mail, Jake.</s>JOHN DOWD, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LAWYER: Hey, Rob, this is John again. Maybe I'm sympathetic and I understand your situation, but let me see if I can't state it in starker terms. If you have -- it wouldn't surprise me if you've gone on to make a deal and work with the government. I understand that you can't</s>PROKUPECZ: So, Jake, obviously this coming after the transcript, which was released last week by the government. Of course, John Dowd not pleased with the release of all this information saying the Mueller team and the Department of Justice are doing this in an attempt to somehow smear him. He says he's been questioned about this call. So the idea this was part of any kind of investigation, he certainly has found it to be a little ridiculous and he's kind of been saying, you know, they're doing this because they're trying to smear me.</s>TAPPER: You can hear the president's lawyer telling Flynn's lawyer, give us a heads-up if you're handing over information on the president, damaging information on the president.</s>PROKUPECZ: Right. And that part was the key thing in all of this for the Mueller team. It's why Flynn's lawyers, when they heard this voice mail, when they got it, they certainly recorded it, copied it and gave it and turned it over to the Mueller team, to the special counsel. And it came up in the report where this was potentially one of the things that they looked at as a possible obstruction. The other thing in this voice mail as you recall was the president's feeling. John Dowd telling Flynn's lawyer, remember how the president feels about Michael Flynn. Why all of that is important is something that the Mueller team looked at because they were wondering if they were trying to somehow sway Michael Flynn's cooperation.</s>TAPPER: Right. The suggestion being, of course, that maybe he would pardon Michael Flynn. Everyone, let's weigh in on this. There's a lot of Flynn news today, surprisingly. First of all, what do you make of this as somebody who covers the White House day in, day out? I'm kind of surprised that the president's attorney would say something like this on a voice mail message. It doesn't seem the wisest lawyering.</s>JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, floating the possibility of a pardon, I mean, he --</s>TAPPER: He denies that.</s>DIAMOND: Yes, exactly, he denies it. But that's effectively what the effect is there. To do that on a voice mail is stunning. Beyond the notion of floating a pardon, also you're hearing the president's attorney here saying if you're going to implicate the president in a crime, which why is a lawyer for the president, would you be worried about --</s>TAPPER: Implicates the president, yes.</s>DIAMOND: -- implicating the president of a crime if you don't think the president committed a crime? And this takes me back to those days we're talking about the perjury trap the president could face that somehow if you sat down with Mueller, the president was going to implicate himself in a crime or lie to investigators about matters they were looking into and, therefore, you know, face criminal charges or be violating the law at least.</s>TAPPER: And, Amanda, the president -- I'm sorry, Michael Flynn still awaiting to be sentenced. And we just learned today that whether he was fired or he quit or whatever, he and his lawyer are not working together anymore, which is certainly unusual at this stage of prosecution.</s>AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, it's amazing that his case still remains in limbo. I think we have to be reminded of the fact that he pled guilty to lying to investigators about sanctions talk with Russia. He chose to cooperate with Mueller even after being dangled a plea as we heard in the voice mail, being threatened with national security implications. And the judge, he was going to be sentenced earlier this year. The judge essentially said, do you want to do this, let the treason word slip? It was really confrontational open court hearing. Now, he's trying to judge -- it makes me wonder, is he trying to retract that plea? Is the pardon offer still operable? This case is not closed.</s>TAPPER: So, speaking of pleas and pardon, let's turn to another Trump associate. He's known as the big man on campus. Why sources say that President Trump's ex-lawyer and former fixer Michael Cohen is Mr. Popular in prison. That's next. Stay with us.