Friday's topics: Comments made by U.S. Housing Secretary Alphonso Jackson on New Orleans' black population, and radio host Bill Bennett, who said a reduction in crime could hypothetically come by aborting black babies. "That would be an impossibly ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down," Bennett said. The group also considers the confirmation of John Roberts as U.S. Chief Justice. Guests: Callie Crossley, social/cultural commentator on the television show Beat the Press in Boston; George Curry, editor-in-chief of the National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service; and John McWhorter, Manhattan Institute senior fellow in Public Policy.
ED GORDON, host: Now we turn our attention to our daily roundtable.  We'll continue this      discussion and also talk about the Senate confirmation for John Roberts.      Joining us from New York, John McWhorter.  He's with The Manhattan      Institute. He's a senior fellow there of public policy.  Callie Crossley,      social and cultural commentator on the television show "Beat the Press,"      which is seen in Boston.  She joins us from member station WGBH.  And      George Curry, editor in chief of the National Newspaper Publishers      Association News Service, joins us today from Maryland.</s>ED GORDON, host: We should note a couple of things.  "Freakonomics," a best-selling      book--we had one of the authors on.  It takes a unique look at numbers      and cause and effect, and it's a very interesting and different dynamic      than often is seen; kind of quirky, if you will, just to get people up to      date on what the book is that Bill Bennett was talking about.  Bennett      said in an interview yesterday that he knows that he is not racist; that      he was, in fact, just taking the best-selling book "Freakonomics," the      hypothesis put forth, the falling crime rate as related to increased      abortion rates a decade ago.  We should note this, though.  The book does      not say, John McWhorter, anything about race.</s>Mr. JOHN McWHORTER (The Manhattan Institute): Oh, of course not.  But I      think we need to give Bill Bennett a break here.  I mean, after all,      think about what Professor Butler was saying about how many blacks live      in fear of crime.  I think we all know that generally, we're talking      about black-on-black crime, and we can talk about whether or not young      black men are picked up in disproportionate numbers, but nevertheless,      even with the conversation with Professor Butler, it was clear that with      problems such as the fetishization of being in jail and people learning      to be criminals in jail, that obviously we have a problem with actual      criminal acts committed disproportionately by young black men.  Back in      the '90s, the typical statistic was that the 13 percent of black people      in the population, 42 percent committing violent crimes.</s>Mr. JOHN McWHORTER (The Manhattan Institute): So this is a problem, and Bill Bennett knows the statistics like these.      I think some of us--supposedly some of us would be glad that he would      know it, because the supposed sociological bards of our race, the      hip-hoppers, are always telling us about the disproportionate number of      black men in jail.  And so what he's saying is that if we had more      abortion based on this strange argument in the "Freakonomics" book, that      if crime went down, then, as I think all of us might think, given these      realities, we're talking disproportionately about young black men.      There's nothing racist about that.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.  Callie Crossley, you ready to give Bill Bennett a      break on that?</s>Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY ("Beat the Press"): No, indeed.  I have cold fury      about it, and I say to myself first, if he were to replace, `abort every      black baby' with any other group, what would be the response and what      kind of anger would be stated?  I mean, he did exactly what the Reverend      Jesse Jackson has said. He put people in an `other' category, which made      it possible for him then to speak in, what he says--I'm quoting him      now--"provocative terms, raising an issue."  This is the most ridiculous      and--I rarely say racist in this way--racist statement I've heard in a      while.  It's just absolutely astounding that in 2005, from a person that      held a national position in our government, that we're dealing with this      kind of overt statement.</s>ED GORDON, host: George Curry...</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (The National Newspaper Publishers Association News      Service): First of all, this...</s>ED GORDON, host: George Curry, let me take you--pick it up, but let me take you      to point of fact, if you look at just, as John McWhorter was trying to      say, the idea of sheer numbers, if you take disproportionate crime      committed by African-American males and then suggest that if they weren't      around, you wouldn't see that kind of crime.  Does Bill Bennett have a      leg to stand on if he says, `I'm just talking simple math here'?</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (The National Newspaper Publishers Association News      Service): Well, first of all, this is specious logic.  First of all,      yes, you have a disproportionate amount of African-Americans in jail, and      part of the reason is you have a disproportionate number who are charged      with a crime, and the deeper you go into the criminal justice system, you      see the more disparity.  Yeah.  If you aborted all the blacks, you abort      all the black inventors, the people who invented the traffic light, the      elevator, the fountain pen--you can go down the whole list.  He could      have said--why didn't he say, `Let's abort all white males and,      therefore, we wouldn't have the Timothy McVeighs and Charles Manson and      Ted Bunson(ph) and John Wayne Gacy or Jeffrey Dahmer'?  I mean, if you      want to talk about aborting somebody, why don't you do that?  There are      more mass murderers who are white that we know about than certainly      African Americans.  So the whole argument is specious.</s>Mr. JOHN McWHORTER (The Manhattan Institute): Ed, can I...</s>ED GORDON, host: Yeah, please.</s>Mr. JOHN McWHORTER (The Manhattan Institute): ...interject something?  First of all, I hope we can      remember that he said that he wasn't talking in reality.  The flow of      that conversation was that he was talking about a simple mathematical      hypothetical that he would never want to see actually done, and also,      very briefly, he didn't say that all African-American people should be      aborted.</s>ED GORDON, host: Let me ask you this, though, John...</s>Mr. JOHN McWHORTER (The Manhattan Institute): It was more...</s>ED GORDON, host: ...and let me just...</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (The National Newspaper Publishers Association News      Service): No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.</s>ED GORDON, host: Let me just say this...</s>Mr. JOHN McWHORTER (The Manhattan Institute): Hold on, George.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (The National Newspaper Publishers Association News      Service): If you go back and hear the tape...</s>ED GORDON, host: George, George, hold on one second.  Let me ask you this, John.      Couldn't he have said that exact same thing and not used `black'?      Couldn't he have just said, `If you had more abortions, you'd see a      reduction in the crime rate,' which is the hypothesis of "Freakonomics"?      So why not just take the racial element out of the question?</s>Mr. JOHN McWHORTER (The Manhattan Institute): It depends on what the flow of the conversation was, and      based on the excerpt that we keep being played, I genuinely don't know      why race came into it.  But even if, for some reason, he just brought it      up out of the clear blue sky--let's say that that's what happened, if we      listened to the whole thing--nevertheless, what he said is not a      statement that has anything to do with thinking that black people are      lesser beings.  He's referring to an unfortunate racial disproportion      that has all sorts of grievous reasons.  We shouldn't be afraid that it's      dirty laundry or something or that only black people should be allowed to      mention it.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (The National Newspaper Publishers Association News      Service): I don't consider it dirty laundry.  I consider it dirty      politics.</s>Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY ("Beat the Press"): I don't either.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (The National Newspaper Publishers Association News      Service): And what he said was--and let's be clear about it--`You could      abort every black baby...'</s>Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY ("Beat the Press"): That's right.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (The National Newspaper Publishers Association News      Service): `...in this country.'  That's what he said.</s>Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY ("Beat the Press"): And that would include Condi, you know.  I mean, it's...</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (The National Newspaper Publishers Association News      Service): And Colin Powell and Al Jackson.</s>Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY ("Beat the Press"): Exactly.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.  We will move on.  This is not going to go away.  I      promise you we'll continue to talk about it.  And again, we've extended      an invitation to Bill Bennett to come on the program to speak to us and      tell us what exactly he meant.  We won't have to hypothesize what he      meant at that point.</s>ED GORDON, host: It has taken the heat off of Alphonso Jackson, though, for his statements      about the gentrification, if you will, of New Orleans.  Again, people      arguing whether it's just a point of fact that this city will no longer,      Callie Crossley, be as, quote, "black" as it used to be.</s>Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY ("Beat the Press"): You know, I think that was an interesting statement,      because somebody else had started--some other commentators had started to      pose this as a reality, too, for a couple of reasons, and one that,      again, Reverend Jesse Jackson raised.  If you already have these no-bid      contracts keeping out black workers rebuilding the city, they can't even      invest in their own city to build houses to come back, so that's one of      the big things.  So you can't even get folks back in town working on      their city who have the skills and the equipment and the availability to      do so.  So that's one thing.</s>Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY ("Beat the Press"): The second thing really is about those economics, and if you are not      going to pay people a living wage, then they certainly cannot last      through the rebuilding process, which we now know is going to be      extensive and take folks with a lot of money to be able to just sustain      being there for some time without all of the stuff that you need to      survive:  hospitals and water and blah, blah and blah, blah.</s>Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY ("Beat the Press"): The third thing I think that'll be interesting is whether or not there      will be an increase in the Hispanic population in terms of service      workers, because a lot of the evacuees that left have--are trying to find      work elsewhere and have said they may not return, so that's going to      attribute to some of the lowering of numbers.  But I also think that      there's going to be an increase in the population of Hispanics in the      area just because of geographics and because, in general, there is a lot      of Hispanics who are sought for service worker positions, positions that      would have been held by black folks.  So to some degree, there's going to      be a reduction of black folks.  Now how it happens will be interesting to      see.</s>ED GORDON, host: Yeah.  Yeah.  George Curry, anything wrong with that if, indeed,      we just see the changing face of New Orleans?</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (The National Newspaper Publishers Association News      Service): Well, I don't think it should be engineered so that you can      only do it basically around racial lines.  If you look at the major      cities in this country, if you look at DC, Memphis, Atlanta, Baltimore,      Jackson, Mississippi, Birmingham, Detroit, they're all over 60 percent      population African-American, so that is kind of what defines urban      America.  That's just where you have most of the blacks, most of the      blacks live in the city, so there's nothing, in and of itself, wrong with      that.  And so I don't really understand why Al wants to limit that, and      I've known Al for 30 years, more than 30 years, and we're friends.  We      don't agree on everything, but we're friends.  And this whole idea that      you're going to engineer--we're going to limit the number of black people      coming back, I think, is preposterous.</s>ED GORDON, host: John.</s>Mr. JOHN McWHORTER (The Manhattan Institute): Well, I have often said about New Orleans that I hope      that what we can see is a new thriving, working class, black enclave, and      then what I heard from some people, who, you know, consider themselves      good-thinking people who are seeking justice, is that, `We don't want      that kind of segregation,' and we're told by many of our best and      brightest that when you get too many working class or poor black people      together in one place, then all heck must break loose, and that what we      really need is integration.</s>Mr. JOHN McWHORTER (The Manhattan Institute): So on the one hand, it seems to me that we can be very upset when someone      suggests that there won't be the large numbers of black people that there      were, but then on the other hand, if that were exactly what were being      planned, then there'd be lots of bleeding-heart newspaper articles saying      that we're reproducing that big terrible word, segregation.  I'm      genuinely not sure what we're supposed to be satisfied with here.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (The National Newspaper Publishers Association News      Service): No one said it had to be segregated in order to come back.      In fact, if you look even at HUD, even on Al Jackson, what they're      pushing forward is that you should have mixed income.  Nobody said they      had to be segregated all in the Ninth Ward, but they should be mixed in      with other income groups so they can get the benefits of the city.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right.  We only have about two minutes left to tackle--no      surprise here--Senate confirmation of John Roberts Jr. to the chief      justice seat on the Supreme Court.  The vote was 78-to-22.  All      Republicans voting in the `for' there.  John McWhorter, no surprise here,      but what it does do now is put the klieg light on the next seat, the      Sandra Day O'Connor seat.</s>Mr. JOHN McWHORTER (The Manhattan Institute): Well, of course.  Judge Roberts doesn't worry me in terms      of some of the rumors we've heard that he is anti-integration or      anti-civil rights.  I think he just raised some rather academic      questions.  But I would be interested to see who we have next, and it      seems that there's this idea that it should be a diverse person.  I      sincerely hope that that person is both diverse and as well-qualified in      the formal sense as the other people on the court.</s>ED GORDON, host: George Curry, any surprise here that half of the Democrats voted      in the affirmative and half voted in the negative for Roberts?  Any      surprise there, the way that split?</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (The National Newspaper Publishers Association News      Service): Yeah.  Somewhat surprising that some of the more liberal      voices voted for him, but I think their strategy is, you know, that      Roberts is eminently qualified for the position, probably the best you're      going to get out of George Bush.  If you're going to fight, there's no      need in fighting both of them.  Let's just wait for the second round,      because essentially, with Roberts, you've got a conservative replacing a      conservative.  That next seat is really the most important fight.</s>ED GORDON, host: And, Callie, here is the big question for all of the talking      heads. We've been hearing it, hearing it, hearing it over the course of      the time between when Sandra Day O'Connor said she was stepping down and      the idea that we would have another Bush appointee, or nominee, I should      say, and that is the question of whether or not we're going to see a true      fight from Democrats this time.</s>Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY ("Beat the Press"): Well, I think you'll see some posturing, and whether you      can characterize it as a true fight is one thing.  I did want to add one      thing.  A number of the people who did vote against, some are suggesting      or have ideas toward a national stage, and so they did so for purely      political reasons, and had they not been looking in that direction, may      have even gone ahead and supported him.</s>ED GORDON, host: All right Callie Crossley, George Curry, John McWhorter, I thank      you all for a very spirited roundtable today.  Appreciate it.</s>Mr. GEORGE CURRY (The National Newspaper Publishers Association News      Service): Thank you.</s>Mr. JOHN McWHORTER (The Manhattan Institute): Thank you.</s>Ms. CALLIE CROSSLEY ("Beat the Press"): Thank you.</s>ED GORDON, host: You're listening to NEWS & NOTES from NPR News.