NANCY GRACE for Tuesday, May 31, 2005, CNNHN
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, while we were celebrating America`s heroes over Memorial Day, there were barbecues, parties, parades, an Ohio teenager wipes out his family, his mom, his grandparents included. And a stunning blow tonight as we learn America`s rape victims have even more to be afraid of. And everybody, buckle your seat belts. Ready or not, the time for closing arguments in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Today in the Michael Jackson child sex trial, lawyers from both sides go head-to-head over jury instructions. We go live to Santa Maria. And also tonight, rape victims in America have even more suffering ahead of them. We take you to Colorado Springs. But first, police say the triggerman in the murders of six people in Bellefontaine, Ohio, was 18-year-old Scott Moody. (BEGIN OHIO KILLINGS 911 CLIP)</s>CALLER: Oh my God! God! The son and the girlfriend are killed, too!</s>OPERATOR: What?</s>CALLER: I found the son too, and his girlfriend. Oh, my God.</s>OPERATOR: What`s the matter?</s>CALLER: Oh, my God.</s>OPERATOR: What`s going on, honey?</s>CALLER: The son and the girlfriend are beat up, too.</s>OPERATOR: The son and the girlfriend?</s>OPERATOR: I need the address, honey.</s>OPERATOR: There is only one awake?</s>CALLER: Yes.</s>OPERATOR: How many people have been beat up?</s>CALLER: Four, four. Oh, my God. There is one in the living room, too.</s>OPERATOR: OK, what`s going on right now, honey?</s>CALLER: She`s telling me that there`s five dead. There`s another one on the couch.</s>GRACE: Tonight, in L.A., defense attorney Debra Opri; in Philadelphia, defense attorney Joe Lawless (ph); in New York, psychologist Dr. Robi Ludwig. But first, let`s go out to Columbus, Ohio, and "Bellefontaine Examiner" reporter Brian Evans. Brian, welcome. How many people lost their lives?</s>BRIAN EVANS, "BELLEFONTAINE EXAMINER" REPORTER: Six.</s>GRACE: What do police think happened? This is an 18-year-old young man, right? Graduation day that day?</s>EVANS: Yes. It`s a terrible thing for the community, absolutely. It`s very tragic.</s>GRACE: What are the condition of the only survivor, one survivor, 15- year-old Stacy Moody, is that the sister?</s>EVANS: Yes, that`s his sister. She is in a critical condition here in Columbus right now.</s>GRACE: Brian, what can you tell us about the story? What happened?</s>EVANS: Well, from what investigators have pieced together, sometime between 7:00 a.m. and 9:30 a.m. Sunday, Scott Moody went to his grandparents` farmhouse at 2337 West State, Route 47, where he apparently shot both of them, and then locked the door, walked a quarter mile west to his residence, and proceeded to go through the house. And he shot four other people, including himself. The other four were sleeping at the time from what we understand, and only one of the victims survived, and that was his sister.</s>GRACE: Brian Evans, the sister was shot twice in the neck, correct?</s>EVANS: Once, I believe.</s>GRACE: Once?</s>EVANS: Yes.</s>GRACE: So obviously he didn`t mean for her to survive, either. Brian, what is the possible motive? Was there any argument? Was there any mental instability on the part of this young man?</s>EVANS: I can`t begin to imagine what was going through his mind, honestly. He thought his sister had been -- he thought he had killed her when he killed himself, apparently. That`s what investigators believe, but she made able to make three calls from her cell phone at 9:30 a.m., one to a neighbor, one to a family friend, and then the third and final call she made to her stepsister who they -- according to the 911 log was Nicole Vadacis (ph). She went to the scene and she discovered the bodies.</s>GRACE: You`re taking a -- you are seeing a shot of the crime scene, and look at that. It`s beautiful. It`s pastoral. It looks like it`s straight out of a storybook, except for that yellow crime tape wrapped around it. Elizabeth, can you play me back the sheriff, please?</s>SHERIFF MICHAEL HENRY, INVESTIGATING MURDER THAT LEFT SIX DEAD: At this point, preliminarily, we believe that the shooter was Scott Moody. That`s preliminary until we get everything back. That`s the way it looks at the scene.</s>DETECTIVE JEFF COOPER, LEAD INVESTIGATOR: They had had a small graduation party there on Saturday night, early Sunday morning. And that`s why everybody was at the residence. Scott and Megan were supposed to graduate yesterday.</s>GRACE: Brian Evans, had there been any domestic disturbance? Any fight in the home, anything?</s>EVANS: I understand there were some calls of some disturbances. Now, the nature of those I`m not certain of. Nothing, nothing like this to indicate -- to even indicate that this would happen. It`s a total shock to the community.</s>GRACE: Brian, was Scott Moody planning to continue to work on the farm after graduation?</s>EVANS: As I understand it, yes.</s>GRACE: Were they in financial trouble?</s>EVANS: That`s what we`re staring to understand, is that they owed some money and back property taxes. And there were some possibly some disputes over the will of the farm. We`re just getting into all of the details of that.</s>GRACE: Dr. Robi Ludwig is us, psychotherapist. You know, when you think of money troubles, you think more of the mother or specifically the father going on a rampage...</s>DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right.</s>GRACE: ... committing suicide, killing the family because -- am I right statistically?</s>LUDWIG: Yes.</s>GRACE: OK.</s>LUDWIG: That was exactly my thought, that very often, when we hear about mass family homicides, you know, we hear about the husband because he can`t handle financial pressure. I would wonder if this boy was the father surrogate. There were a lot of divorce problems and family problems. And although he was described as a natural farmer, perhaps he wanted something else for his life. And something about the graduation helped him realize that certain options were not available to him. I mean, that was my first thought.</s>GRACE: Take a listen to this, guys.</s>HENRY: This would be surprising to any community. I don`t care what size you are. Smaller communities, like I said before, people know everybody. And these things are tough. This time of year, of course, it makes it tougher, with graduation issues. And it`s tough on us. I mean, we are -- we knew these people, a lot of these people we knew. And we`re familiar with these kids. You can`t describe how you feel about it. It`s tough for everyone. I feel so bad for the families and the community.</s>GRACE: In a beautiful, rural Ohio town, a family wiped out by the high schooler about to graduate that very day. Brian Evans, staff writer with the "Bellefontaine Examiner." What is the community like? It`s largely rural, correct?</s>EVANS: Yes, it`s a rural community of about 15,000 people. It`s largely agricultural, but it also has some manufacturing. It`s a town where everybody knows of everybody.</s>GRACE: Brian Evans with the "Bellefontaine Examiner," thank you, friend. Thank you very much.</s>EVANS: Yes. Thank you for having me.</s>GRACE: A quick break, everybody. We are headed to Santa Maria, California, and the latest in the Michael Jackson trial. Please stay with us.</s>GRACE: Michael Jackson in happier times. That was when Jackson was on top, literally on top of the world. Believe it or not, there are people in the world that believe Jackson is a deity, a god, a god-like creature on Earth. Ruh-roh. Elizabeth, take that down. We are not having that kind of talk on this show. Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. We are live in Santa Maria with the latest in the Michael Jackson trial. Ready or not, here it comes. It`s time for closing arguments. Here with me on the set is a very special guest, "Vanity Fair" special correspondent Maureen Orth is with us. Welcome, friend. I read your article. Now, this comes out, when?</s>MAUREEN ORTH, "VANITY FAIR": Next week.</s>GRACE: Next week?</s>ORTH: Yes.</s>GRACE: And it`s incredible. It`s an incredible article. I`m stunned not only by what I heard coming out of the courtroom, but by the fact that you say, Maureen, that Michael Jackson believes that there is a very wide and vast conspiracy to get him. Explain.</s>ORTH: Well, he feels that the reason he is where he is today is because there are a lot of people out to get his financial -- his major economic asset, which is the publishing rights to the Beatles, et cetera, the song catalog.</s>GRACE: Two-hundred and sixty-one songs of the Beatles, plus others...</s>ORTH: Plus, scores and scores of pop musicians` songs. I mean, hundreds and hundreds. And he owns this jointly with Sony. And it is absolutely leveraged to the hilt because he is over $200 million in debt.</s>GRACE: How much is the Sony catalog worth?</s>ORTH: Well, nobody really knows it. It`d have to really be...</s>GRACE: Over $500 million, I would think.</s>ORTH: Well, probably. But it varies, but they each own half. And Sony has the right of first refusal to buy it. And it could be sold as early as December of this year. And if he does sell it, he has to pay about $40 to $60 million in capital gains.</s>GRACE: But why would it be sold in December?</s>ORTH: Because, well, it depends. He just resold his bank loans, but that`s when the bank loan fell due. So in other words, everything is leveraged by this catalog and another catalog. Anyway, with regard to the Sony catalog, he feels that the ex- president of Sony, Tommy Mottola, with whom he has clashed in the past, Sony music, which he thinks is trying to squeeze him in a moment of weakness, have somehow -- and Tom Sneddon and the judge have somehow -- and right-wing elements of the U.S. government, whatever...</s>GRACE: Whoa, I didn`t read -- I missed -- was that in the article?</s>ORTH: No, well, I didn`t -- no, but that was also part...</s>GRACE: Right-wing elements of the government?</s>ORTH: Well, that`s part of what`s...</s>GRACE: You know what? I think they`re after me, too.</s>GRACE: Go ahead.</s>ORTH: In any case, that somehow this mother has been paid to make these charges, and she`s getting money, and it`s all a set-up, and that`s why.</s>GRACE: Let me get my flowchart out here. OK, we have got in on the conspiracy against Michael Jackson, one of the most beloved stars of our times, you have got Mottola, you have got Sony, you`ve got the mom, in this case, the judge, Judge Melville...</s>ORTH: And Sneddon.</s>GRACE: And Sneddon, whom has been in office since about 1987, I believe, the elected district attorney. OK, everybody is in a conspiracy to get...</s>ORTH: Actually, since 1980.</s>GRACE: Thank you. 1980, even -- OK. Incredible.</s>ORTH: Yes. And also, there`s a racist element to it, as well, he believes. And at one point, my source who had talked to him extensively, and who was talking to me for a long time, was taken to Neverland, was sent to Neverland, to try to decide how they were going to stop the trial. How could they put the elements of this conspiracy together, because he wanted the trial stopped. And what happened was, as...</s>GRACE: The image person?</s>ORTH: Yes. This is a conspiracy investigator that was brought in by Jermaine. And so then what happened is that they didn`t pay him this consulting fee, so he got angry and he talked to me. But he already had been talking to me. And I saw a lot of the stuff he told me he advised Jackson to do came out on the Jesse Jackson radio interview on Easter Sunday.</s>GRACE: I know. I interviewed Reverend Jackson. Did the Jackson camp really believe that they could stop a trial?</s>ORTH: Michael is used to having his own way. And if there`s one thing you know from watching this trial is that he lives in his own celebrity cocoon. It isn`t as if he hasn`t been warned in the past; it isn`t as if he hasn`t been paid -- he hasn`t had to pay $25 million to one guy and $2.4 to another. But even so, even with all that, he prefers to see himself as a victim. And this is a convenient way to be the victim.</s>GRACE: According to Maureen and others, if you read her "Vanity Fair" article comes out shortly, Michael Jackson truly believes that Tommy Mottola, who once ran Sony, Sony, the mom in this case, the judge, Judge Melville, and Sneddon, the district attorney, are part of a vast conspiracy to get him. Take a listen to this.</s>MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: I made billions of dollars for Sony. And what they did was really terrible, and not just to me and some of their other artists, too. He has got to go. He has got to be terminated.</s>GRACE: He went on to call Mottola devilish, very, very devilish. Now, that`s what Jackson had to say about Mottola and Sony at a rally in Harlem. That was summer of 2002. Back to Maureen Orth, "Vanity Fair" special correspondent. I was reading your article. And, OK, so Jermaine, the brother, brings in an image consultant, as I call it.</s>ORTH: Well, he`s a little bit more than that. He`s like a conspiracy investigator-image consultant.</s>GRACE: And he told, according to your article, he told Jackson how to clean up?</s>ORTH: Yes, he said get rid of the weird -- you know, quote, get rid of the weird, quote, "pedophile persona."</s>GRACE: Can you show me that book photo please, Elizabeth?</s>ORTH: He said, "Get a romance."</s>GRACE: With a woman.</s>ORTH: With a woman. With a woman. Go back to Jesus. Show that you`re religious.</s>GRACE: No, wait, wait. Take a look at that, Maureen. That`s the book in photo.</s>ORTH: Yes?</s>GRACE: Now, he told the man to get rid of the makeup, get rid of the eye liner.</s>ORTH: But he said, "I just want to be me." Michael said, "No, I just want to be me." He said no to everything. And this guy said...</s>GRACE: He also told him to quit hanging out with children.</s>ORTH: He did. And he said, "Why didn`t you stop sleeping with little boys?" And he said, allegedly, "Because I didn`t want to."</s>GRACE: Now, why didn`t the state call this guy as a witness?</s>ORTH: Because I don`t think they knew about him, not at all. I don`t think they had any idea about him.</s>GRACE: When I was reading your article, I see that you believe Jackson lives in a very unusual world, that he gets to have that world because he is such a celebrity.</s>ORTH: He is Michael Jackson. Exactly. I`ve written about this in my book, you know, the importance of being famous. Once you`re a celebrity, somehow all the rules of normal behavior fly out the window, particularly with Michael Jackson. We have seen mothers get up on the witness stand and say it`s all right for their little kids to sleep in bed with him within hours because he`s Michael Jackson. And we see all these people around him all trying to jockey for position in front of him. And a lot of them are self-dealing. It isn`t as if he hasn`t been taken advantage of. He attracts a very, shall we say, colorful and diverse breed of people around him.</s>GRACE: You know, it reminds me so much of the old story of the "Emperor`s New Clothes." Nobody would say anything if a regular guy slept with a little kid, 8- or 9-years-old for 365 nights in a row.</s>ORTH: Right.</s>GRACE: He would be tarred and feathered.</s>ORTH: Well, and the fact that he is 46-years-old and they are 11 and 12. And also, don`t forget that we have also heard testimony that the two months of the accuser and his brother were on Neverland, Michael Jackson was drunk, his house manager says, at least four times a week. I also report a lot about his past drug problems that are very, very severe. And I talked to one person who says he travels with a big black suitcase that`s filled with pre...</s>GRACE: Before break, that reminds me of something, when you said drunk. Remember the, as I call him, image consultant, as you say conspiracy expert, also told him, "Let me give you truth serum."</s>ORTH: Right.</s>GRACE: And...</s>ORTH: Hypnosis, and a lie detector.</s>GRACE: And videotape it, and put it on the Internet. You`ll clear your name like that.</s>ORTH: That`s right.</s>GRACE: And Jackson refused.</s>ORTH: Right. Well, he said it was against his religion, is what he told...</s>GRACE: To take sodium pentothal?</s>ORTH: I guess so, yes.</s>GRACE: With us tonight, a very special guest, Maureen Orth, "Vanity Fair" special correspondent. She has been in the courtroom from the get- go. Thank you, friend.</s>ORTH: You are welcome.</s>GRACE: Quickly, to "Trial Tracking": Tonight, the search goes on for Shasta and Dylan Groene, two Idaho children missing 16 days now. The sheriff`s department vows to continue the search, but for only six more days. In the hopes of finding Dylan and Shasta Groene, tonight, new photos of these two released. Please take a look. Also tonight, we have confirmed police did receive a tip the two are alive in Oregon. But police don`t know if that tip is legitimate. If you have any information on these two beautiful children, Shasta and Dylan Groene, please call the Kootenai County Sheriff, 208-446-2292.</s>RAYMONE BAIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SPOKESPERSON: Michael lives here. He loves here. His family is here. His friends are here. His children are growing up here. And you know, there have been so many rumors throughout this entire trial, you know? They have said that he was bankrupt. He is not. They said he sold Neverland. He has not. They said he was going to flee a long time ago. He has not. I mean, it`s just preposterous some of the things that people are saying.</s>GRACE: And it`s amazing that all of that could have been cleared up if Jackson had just taken the stand and then submitted himself to cross- examine. That didn`t happen. Ready or not, here it comes. It`s time for closing arguments in the state versus Michael Jackson. Tonight, in Santa Maria, trial lawyer from Seattle, Anne Bremer. But first to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, I`m afraid to ask, what happened in court today?</s>JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, deity or not, Michael Jackson was not here. But there were still plenty of fireworks, Nancy, over jury instructions. In fact, it got so fierce, at one point, the D.A., Tom Sneddon whispered to a colleague who was sitting next to a microphone, "We just got bleep," expletive deleted, can`t repeat what he said on the air. But that was over the believability of witnesses. Basically, the judge said that jurors can consider the past criminal conduct of a witness when deciding their believability, even if that witness was not convicted of any crime. That will further undermine the testimony of the accuser`s mother who took the Fifth on welfare fraud. And it was on and on all day. Those battles continue tomorrow.</s>GRACE: Did they settle anything? I know the big, big headline today is that lesser included offenses are going to be offered to this jury. Misdemeanor counts.</s>VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. The issue of alcohol is a huge issue. And of course, Michael Jackson is charged with four counts of administering alcohol for the purposes of committing a felony to wit molestation. The judge decided that the jurors can consider the lesser included charge of simply furnishing alcohol to a minor. And that was very interesting, because even after he made the ruling, the defense continued to fight against it. So we`re going to have to see if that decision sticks or not.</s>GRACE: We`re going to be right back with "Celebrity Justice" correspondent at the courthouse, Jane Velez-Mitchell. As we go to break, I want to remind you that we here at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Joanna Kathryn Rogers (ph), 17. She disappeared from Lubbock, Texas, about a year ago. If you have any info on Joanna Kathryn Rogers (ph), please contact the Lubbock County sheriff, 806-775-1601, or go online to beyondmissing.com. Please, help us.</s>BEGIN VIDEO CLIP - "60 MINUTES")  MICHAEL JACKSON: If you`re going to be a pedophile, if you`re going to be Jack the Ripper, if you`re going to be a murderer, it`s not a good idea. That I`m not. I didn`t sleep in the bed with the child. Even if I did, it`s OK. I slept on the floor.</s>GRACE: That is from Jackson`s first public response to this child molestation charges. Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Straight out to Jane Velez-Mitchell standing by at the Santa Maria courthouse. Michael Jackson was a no-show today. Why?</s>JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, he didn`t have to be there, basically. I mean, this was an argument over jury instructions. And any time he doesn`t have to show, he doesn`t. Presumably, he`s at Neverland and perhaps working with his lead defense attorney, Tom Mesereau, over closing arguments because Mesereau wasn`t here, either. And the general sense was that both the key players in the closing arguments were rehearsing and trying to figure out what they`re going to say. I can`t even imagine the pressure on the two men who are going to deliver the closing arguments for either side.</s>GRACE: So today, while his attorneys were fighting for his freedom in court, he was at Neverland. Maybe he was kicked back, having a little "Jesus juice" out of a Coke can...</s>GRACE: ... reading some material like this, "The Boy." I got to tell you something, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Does the jury have -- no, of course, they don`t have it yet. They will have it as soon as they begin -- oh, here`s a little boy in a thong from behind. He`s drinking from a coconut.</s>GRACE: OK. There`s one giving the other a bath. OK. Whatever! Let me go to Anne Bremner. Anne Bremner, why -- don`t you know, Anne Bremner -- you tried a lot of cases. You would have your client there, looking at the judge for every single ruling Melville made.</s>ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Absolutely. I mean, my client -- I have them with me every step of the way -- legal arguments. But Jury instructions, Nancy, you know, are such an important part of the case. They can make or break your case. And of course, I would have him there. And I don`t know if he`s home reading "The Boy" or boys will be boys, but he should have been in court today. And other times -- other times we`ve had arguments, he hasn`t been here, and I think he should have been.</s>GRACE: To Joe Lawless. He is a veteran trial lawyer out of the Philadelphia jurisdiction. Would you have had your client there? And what is the significance of these lesser misdemeanor charges?</s>JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I definitely -- I agree with Anne. I`d have had Michael Jackson there for every part of the proceeding. I would have had him dressed differently, trying to act differently. And the image consultant advice, I would have tried to have him follow it. But no, absolutely. I`d have had him there for every proceeding. The lesser included offenses -- I think it`s a way of possibly giving the jury a reason to compromise. There is -- in my view, whether you like Michael Jackson or not, I think the case has been mistried. There`s a lot of reasonable doubt there. I think they want to give the jury something to grab on, in the event the entire prosecution case goes south.</s>GRACE: So bottom line, Joe Lawless, you think there`s going to be a - - the jury`s going to split the baby, convict of a few counts, let him go on a couple of other counts?</s>LAWLESS: I think that`s a possibility. You`ve got a strange jury, in terms of age, ethnic background, et cetera. They were picked in three days.</s>GRACE: Why do you say they`re strange? I think they`re a nice mix.</s>LAWLESS: Well, I think that`s the problem. I think they`re an extreme mix. I think you`re going to have a problem getting them to agree. I think you have a 19-year-old and a grandmother. I think the jury was selected with the goal of being worst-case scenario, a hung jury.</s>GRACE: Have you ever put a 19-year-old on a criminal jury?</s>LAWLESS: No. I don`t think...</s>GRACE: Me, either.</s>LAWLESS: ... either as a prosecutor or as a defense lawyer I`ve ever done that.</s>GRACE: Me, either. You know why? They`re unpredictable as a juror. You don`t know which way they`re going to go. You can`t peg them. You can`t really get a feel for them. I`ve never put a teenager on a jury, much less a felony trial. Are you kidding? Here in the studio with me, psychotherapist Robi Ludwig. You know, we spoke to "Vanity Fair" special correspondent Maureen Orth earlier, and she in this article, which is incredible, talks about Jackson really believes that all these parties -- these disparate parties have a big conspiracy to get Michael Jackson.</s>ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes.</s>GRACE: Now the cops, the judge and the prosecutor are in on it!</s>LUDWIG: Right. It`s interesting. Someone with a narcissistic personality very often feels that people are jealous of them and envy them and so will attack them in any way that they can. It also makes them vulnerable because they think that since they are better than everybody else, things will just automatically work out for them, and they are vulnerable to people who are more vicious-minded. But when somebody grows up -- and when you`re a celebrity, you`re really a product. You`re not a person. And so it didn`t surprise me that he views himself as a product who`s been abused. And this is just a by- product of how he experiences himself in the world and which he lives in.</s>GRACE: Take a listen to this.</s>QUESTION: Is he prepared to do, in the worst-case scenario, do prison time at all?</s>RAYMONE BAIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SPOKESPERSON: Well, he has great faith in the justice system. He has a great spiritual strength. He is surrounded by his family. He is speaking to Reverend Jackson and others daily. And so, he is strong. He is looking forward to being vindicated. He has said throughout that he is innocent. He`s been maintaining his innocence, and he`s just hoping that when the jury comes back, they will find him innocent of all charges.</s>GRACE: OK, joining us tonight, a face you know well, Jackson family lawyer Debra Opri. Debra, I know you had the interview with Maureen Orth. In this article that she has written for "Vanity Fair," she said this whole daily prayer phone call with Reverend Jesse Jackson is simply not true. They`re just saying that to make him appear to be religious. Response?</s>DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s not my understanding. "Vanity Fair" is one of my favorite magazines, and this woman is one of my favorite writers, but whatever the timing of the release of this article, wherever the information is coming from, I just question the timing and the motive and why all of this is coming out now.</s>GRACE: Because people care about it now! They`re hearing it!</s>OPRI: Not really. You`re on the -- no, Nancy, you`re on the eve of jury closing arguments and jury deliberations. I do believe that what relevancy is there to certain comments about conspiracy and race? It was not part of Mesereau`s case in chief -- in defense, rather. And I just question the timing. As far as Raymone Bain`s comments about him speaking with the Reverend Jesse Jackson, ask Raymone. She`s his spokesperson.</s>GRACE: Back to Debra Opri. Debra, what do you -- how do you interpret the fact that the judge is allowing lesser included offenses? What I mean by that is...</s>OPRI: I know what it is. I`m a criminal defense attorney.</s>GRACE: Yes, I know you are. I`m speaking to the viewers, dear! Thanks.</s>OPRI: OK. All right. No, listen. It`s a bucket effect...</s>GRACE: If I could just finish the explanation!</s>OPRI: All right, all right, all right. Go ahead, Nancy.</s>GRACE: The lesser included offenses regarding giving alcohol to a minor, in the indictment, it`s a felony because it`s alleged he did it for sexual purposes.</s>OPRI: That`s right.</s>GRACE: The misdemeanor is simply giving alcohol to a minor.</s>OPRI: That`s right.</s>GRACE: Success for the state or the defense?</s>OPRI: It`s a bucket effect. The bucket effect is when the prosecution at the last minute -- and Tom Sneddon is notorious for doing this -- before the case goes to the jury, the bucket effect is to go in and say, Let`s just cover all our bases. Let`s just get something to stick. It`s like linguine on the wall in "The Odd Couple." The odd couple of Tom Sneddon and Ron Zonen (ph) is basically to say, If -- if, if -- all else fails, we got the misdemeanor conviction. Will they get that? I don`t know The worst that can happen, in my opinion -- and I`m acting as a criminal defense attorney, having heard all the evidence at this point in time -- I really think the worst is going to be a hung jury. You have to show the intent to serve alcohol to minors. I mean, like everything else, that misdemeanor deserves an intent for burden of proof, and I just don`t see where it came in.</s>GRACE: To Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice" -- Jane, who asked -- which attorney asked the judge for the lesser included offense? It`s, you know, a 12-month`s probation possibility for a sentence.</s>VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have to say, what was really shocking to all of us...</s>GRACE: Who asked for it?</s>VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... about this issue -- it came up, and I know that the prosecution was in favor of it and the defense was against it. But those of us observing it thought that that was completely backwards because a lot of people thought this is the best thing that could happen to the defense. If the jurors are on the fence, they want to -- they want to hit Jackson with something, but they feel that the case isn`t provable, well, there`s this misdemeanor charge staring them in the face right now that they can say, Well, we did something, even though he probably wouldn`t get any jail time. So we were scratching our heads, looking at each other, wondering why isn`t the defense in favor of this and the prosecution against it? Because it gives them an out. It gives them something to go for that, basically, has no teeth to it, but they can say, Well, we did convict him of something.</s>GRACE: Very quickly, to Anne Bremner, high-profile Seattle lawyer -- Anne, you`ve been the courtroom from the get-go. How long do you think closings are going to go? When are we going to have a verdict?</s>BREMNER: Let me just say one thing, Nancy. The defense is back, arguing this lesser again because they don`t want it. So this -- this isn`t done. But I think the closings will take about three hours each, which is about right for a case this length of time. And I think that the jury will not take as much time as everyone thinks out here. They`re a good jury. They`re a solid jury. They get along. You know, when I pick a jury, like in an arson case, where they might hang, when I was a prosecutor, I looked for people that got along, someone that bakes on the jury, that would bake for everybody, things like that. This jury, they like each other. Whatever age they are, they like each other. I think we`ll have this to the jury, of course, before the weekend, and I would not be shocked by a verdict before the weekend.</s>GRACE: Everybody, when we get back, we are switching gears. If you think rape victims have a tough time of it, now their worst dreams have come true. Stay with us.</s>JENNIFER BIER, RAPE COUNSELOR: Am I willing to render my whole, entire field moot by surrendering records? And the answer is no. And so if I have to serve time in jail or I have to pay a lofty fine for this, then I`ll do that.</s>GRACE: A therapist being forced by a judge to hand over an alleged rape victim`s therapy notes. Has anybody heard of doctor-patient privilege? Let`s go straight out to Lauri Martin. Lauri is a reporter with KKTV. Welcome, Lauri. Bring me up to date, friend.</s>LAURI MARTIN, KKTV: Hi, Nancy. Well, as you just said, an independent private civilian therapist, Jennifer Bier (ph), has been subpoenaed to turn over her records to the Air Force from counseling sessions with former cadet Jessica Brachy (ph), who alleges she was sexually assaulted at the Air Force Academy. Now, Bier has refused to comply with the subpoena, and now she is facing an arrest warrant issued by a military judge just last week.</s>GRACE: Wow. Also with us, Jennifer Bier`s attorney, Wendy Murphy. Wendy, what is going on out there?</s>WENDY MURPHY, ATTORNEY FOR RAPE COUNSELOR FACING ARREST FOR REFUSING TO REVEAL RECORDS: You know, Nancy, it`s not pretty. Look, it`s our position that this is a ridiculously unlawful subpoena. I was in the court-martial courtroom down in San Antonio, Texas, a couple of weeks ago, and I provided the military judge with a boat-load of reasons not to enforce this subpoena. He disagreed, and at the end of last week, issued an arrest warrant, literally, a forthwith warrant, meaning that the Jennifer Bier, the victim`s therapist, can be arrested at any time by a federal official or by an Air Force official. And it`s really terrifying for Jennifer. I mean, she`s literally living her life -- she`s not in hiding, but at any time, somebody could just come and snatch her away. And Nancy, you`ve prosecuted cases. You know, you and I have talked about this so many times. We`re talking about a victim who was raped, who went to counseling because she had a need to heal, to get better, to talk in confidence in a therapeutic environment. Confidentiality is the key to meaningful therapy, and now we`ve got her rapist`s lawyer, through the military judge, demanding and getting access in a justice system that -- while there was an Air Force scandal going on about a year ago, remember what the military officials were saying down in D.C.? Remember what the Air Force Academy was saying? We care about victims. Boy, we don`t like this rape scandal. We want victims to come forward and report rape. We want to treat women right. We care about women in the military. Oh, yes. Sure. This is not way to care about women in the military, to force them to choose between prosecution and privacy!</s>GRACE: Wendy, is this guy, the suspect -- is he a suspect in two rapes?</s>MURPHY: Two rapes. Two different victims.</s>GRACE: Is he in jail or on bond?</s>MURPHY: I don`t know the answer to that, Nancy. Let me tell you something. I asked this judge -- before my client should be locked up, I think the judge should have given me access to any and all relevant information about this demand for her counseling, privileged, constitutionally...</s>GRACE: Wendy?</s>MURPHY: ... protected privacy rights. The judge gave me no information about this guy, no information about the case, no information about the hearings that led to this subpoena. This is truly a kangaroo court. I don`t understand how you can call this a justice system!</s>GRACE: Well, I hate for you to learn about it on national TV, Wendy, but our sources tell us this guy is walking free. He`s not even behind bars awaiting trial -- suspect in two rape cases. Back to Lauri Martin. She`s a reporter with KKTV. My question to you, Lauri, is, is he going to regular court or military court?</s>MARTIN: He is going to military court. From what I understand, he will be facing court-martial in about two weeks. And Nancy, like you just mentioned, from what we know, he is out.</s>GRACE: Good Lord!</s>MARTIN: According to Air Force officials, they say that a man or a woman will only be put behind bars if two things, if he is either, A, a threat to flight, or B, a threat to other people around him. And that`s why the Air Force says he is not in jail.</s>GRACE: Being suspected of two rapes isn`t enough? To defense attorney Debra Opri. Debra, look, I know that you must have defended rape cases before, but to take an alleged rape victim`s doctor`s notes or therapist`s notes -- have you ever seen that in a case before?</s>OPRI: Nancy, this is one area where you and I are in steadfast agreement. This is beyond my comprehension, that there are two standards. One, this woman, this doctor, is not even in the military, and she is losing her constitutional rights. The privilege of patient-doctor is being ignored. This has got to be challenged, and the press you`re giving it -- I`m afraid I have to tell you, if you didn`t give it this press, maybe it would be a flat-out arrest. And Wendy, I commend you. I would strongly suggest bringing in a military attorney. My husband was in the military, and let me tell you, hon, there are two sets of standards, and unless you get in there and play level on their field with your bite, and the military knowledge, and the press, it`s going to be jail time for this woman. And my heart breaks for your client.</s>GRACE: Very quickly, to Dr. Robi Ludwig. When you counsel people, aren`t your notes privileged? You don`t have to hand them over to a court.</s>LUDWIG: They are privileged, but there are exceptions always. And basically...</s>GRACE: ... one of them?</s>LUDWIG: Not really. But I have to say, in the state of New York, if a lawyer wants your notes and subpoenas you, you have to give it over to the lawyer, then hope that the judge makes the right decision. I mean, that`s the law.</s>GRACE: That`s really interesting because, Wendy Murphy, in the jurisdictions where I`m authorized to practice, that is not the law, that those notes are privileged, Wendy.</s>MURPHY: Absolutely right. And Nancy, I just want to let you and your viewers know that we are filing in federal court tomorrow. Thanks, Debra, anyway, for the help. I`ve got lots of great help. People around the country have been clamoring to help, and I think that`s a great sign for us. We`re going to file in federal court tomorrow, and hopefully, get a restraining order preventing Jennifer`s arrest.</s>GRACE: Wendy, we`ll be right back with you. Quickly, to tonight`s all points bulletin. FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, William Clayborne (ph) Taylor, wanted in connection with the murder of an INS official and the attempted murder of the mayor. William Taylor, 55, 6-feet-4, 200 pounds, blond hair, blue eyes. If you have any information on William Clayborne Taylor, call the FBI, 904-721-1211. Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." Please stay with us as we remember Michael Starr, Jr., 21, an American hero.</s>GRACE: Welcome back. A major ruling out of a Colorado trial court against rape victims. Very quickly, to KKTV`s Lauri Martin. Is this suspect, the suspect in two rape cases, in or out of jail, Lauri?</s>MARTIN: Nancy, Air Force officials say he`s not in jail. In fact, he is currently stationed at Columbus Air Force Base in Mississippi.</s>GRACE: Wendy, isn`t it ironic that the guy suspected in two rapes is walking around every day, he`s not in jail, and they`re trying to put your client, the therapist, behind bars?</s>MURPHY: You took the words right out of my mouth, Nancy. It`s not just ironic, it`s unconscionable! This is not a way to run a civilized justice system. This woman has done nothing wrong except enlist in an academy and try to serve her country. She was raped, and now she`s being raped again by the justice system. That`s cruel.</s>GRACE: Robi, you wanted in?</s>LUDWIG: Yes, that you only have to turn over your notes for a court order, not a subpoena.</s>GRACE: So if a judge tells you to?</s>LUDWIG: Yes.</s>GRACE: OK. And in this case, Wendy`s client, Jennifer Bier, has refused to, to violate her doctor-patient privilege. Very quickly to Joe Lawless. Joe, have you ever seen anything like it?</s>LAWLESS: Actually, Nancy, I have. In Colorado, the state where this counselor practices, the Colorado rape shield law does permit these notes to be turned over under certain circumstances, if the defense can make a showing of relevancy and materiality. So they aren`t under every circumstance privileged.</s>GRACE: To very quickly, to Wendy Murphy, has that showing be made?</s>MURPHY: No. There`s been no showing, no allegation of even a single fact. But he is wrong. The Colorado state court system provides an absolute privilege of confidentiality for victims, unless she exercises a written waiver. And a court order, by the way, is not sufficient unless it`s a lawful court order. So every therapist watching the program, anyone providing mental health care, should do what Jennifer Bier did, stand up for your client`s privacy rights! Stand up for your profession! Refuse to comply!</s>GRACE: You know, Wendy, I`m just in shock. Oh, quickly, Wendy, what`s the name of this judge?</s>MURPHY: Colonel David Brash (ph).</s>GRACE: Colonel David Brash. OK. What a blow to rape victims all over the country. I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank-you is to you for being with us tonight, inviting all of us into your home. Coming up, headlines from all around the world. Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend. END