Alberto Gonzales Grilled Over Torture Memos
SANCHEZ: That's Joe Biden. It's his turn to ask questions of Alberto Gonzales. And that's exactly what he's doing. Let's go ahead now and listen in.</s>SEN. JOE BIDEN (D-DE), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: ... he's broken the law and Roper is saying (ph), but he means you harm. And if my recollection is correct, you have Thomas Moore turning to Roper (ph) and saying, "This law -- this country is planted thick with laws, coast to coast. Man's law is not God's. And if you cut them down, Roper, as you would, what will you do when the devil turns round on you? Yes, I'd give the devil benefit of law for my own safety's sake." That's the fundamental principle we debate among ourselves, no matter how you cut it. And that's what -- the debate that took place on these torture memos between Taft and Yo (ph). I have, which I'm not -- I have a copy of the report, the memo, sent by the secretary of state to you all on February 7, which is -- I'm not going to make public. But in that memo, he takes significant issue with the recommendations coming out of your shop and Mr. Yo's (ph). And he says -- ends by saying, let's talk. We need to talk. And he goes into great details as other reports do. Powell, contemporaneously, on the 7th, says, basically -- and I have the report right here. Says basically, "Look, you go forward with the line of reasoning you guys are using, and you're going to put my troops, my former troops in jeopardy." This is about the safety and security of American forces. And he says in here, "What you're doing is putting that in jeopardy." You have the former head of JAG, the top lawyer in the United States military saying, "Hey, man, this is way beyond the interrogation techniques you're signing off, way beyond what the manual, the military manual for guidance of how to deal with prisoners says." And so the point I'm trying to make here, and I will come back with questions, and if I have any time, I will. Well, I don't have time. Is this is important stuff because there was a fundamental disagreement within the administration. And based on the record, it seems to me, although it may not be totally -- it may not be dispositive -- your judgment was not as good as the judgment of the secretary of state. Your judgment was not as good or as sound as the chief lawyer from the JAG. Your judgment was not as sound. And the question I want to debate about is the judgment. How did you arrive at this? Different than these serious people like you, who thought what you were doing, recommending to the president in various memos, was jeopardizing the security of American troops. And that's what I want to get back to. But I want to explain to the public and anybody listening, this is not about your integrity. This is not a witch-hunt. This is about your judgment. That's all we're trying to do. And so when I get to ask my questions, I hope you'll be candid about it, because -- not that it's relevant -- I like you. I like you. You're the real -- you're the real deal.</s>SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Senator Biden, your red light is on.</s>BIDEN: My red light is on. Thank you.</s>SPECTER: Mr. Gonzales while Senator Biden is awaiting round two to formulate a question, I think you ought to be given an opportunity to respond to Senator Biden's observations and implicit, perhaps, two dozen questions. The floor is yours.</s>ALBERTO GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE: Senator Biden, I'm not -- when you're referring to the Powell memo, I'm not sure which memo you're referring to, and I presume you're referring...</s>BIDEN: Just for the record, Mr. Chairman, it's dated January 11, 2002, to John Yo from William Taft, legal adviser, and there is overwhelming evidence that you saw it. There was discussion about it. And that's what I'm referring to.</s>GONZALES: There was a great deal of debate within the administration, as that memo partly reflects, about -- about what was legally required. And perhaps a policy judgment to be made by the president. And the fact that there was disagreement about something so significant, I think should not be surprising to anyone.</s>BIDEN: Of course not.</s>GONZALES: Of course not. And reasonable people can differ. In the end, it is the Department of Justice who is charged by statute to provide the definitive legal advice on behalf of the executive branch to the president of the United States. What I can tell you...</s>BIDEN: With all due respect, that doesn't matter. I don't care about their judgment. I'm looking at yours.</s>GONZALES: Sir, of course, I conveyed to the president my own views about what the law requires.</s>SPECTER: Right.</s>GONZALES: Often informed by what the Department of Justice says the law is, because, again, by statute, you have conferred upon them that responsibility. I can tell you that with respect to the decision that the president ultimately made, everyone involved, including the secretary of state, including the chairman of joint chiefs, all of the principals who had equities in the decision about the application of Geneva had an opportunity to present their views and their concerns directly to the president of the United States, and he made a decision.</s>SPECTER: Thank you, Judge.</s>BIDEN: Thank you.</s>SPECTER: Thank you, Judge Gonzales. Senator Kyl had to depart earlier this morning for his...</s>SANCHEZ: You just heard moments ago from Senator Biden of Delaware, asking questions of Alberto Gonzales. And part of his theme has been throughout, as a matter of fact, for those of you who have been watching this process, that we need to be very mindful that whatever we do or whatever policies we establish can certainly be done to ours, as well. In other words, our soldiers. Part of the theme that he was trying to ask in the form of a question, it seemed, with -- with Alberto Gonzales. In fact at one point, Senator Biden had said earlier, not during this hearing, "My son is overseas. And that is why I ask these questions." We'll certainly continue to follow these hearings for you throughout the day. And if at any time we think we have a possibility of taking you back inside, we'll do just that. Meantime, here's Daryn.</s>KAGAN: But before we leave the story, we want to go to our Ed Henry on Capitol Hill to talk more about what we're watching taking place with this nomination and other hearings taking place -- Ed.</s>ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning again, Daryn. That's right. Judge Gonzales has been nominated to the nation's 80th attorney general, the first Hispanic attorney general ever. Republicans this morning at this hearing have been trying to focus on his story, his personal story, a real rags to riches story. They compare it to Horatio Alger, the fact that he was growing up in a town actually called Humble, Texas. And they say that from those humble origins he has risen all the way to the top levels of government. But you're hearing a much different story from the Democrats. They say while they respect his life story, they want to zero in on his time as White House counsel. They say that is what is relevant. And they've been zeroing in on a series of memos that Gonzales either rote or approved, dealing with torture, dealing with the handling of prisoners in the war on terror. Democrats feel that he may have gone too far in some cases and that that could have led to the abuses at Abu Ghraib, that prison in Iraq, and other places around the world. Here's one exchange between Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy and Judge Gonzales. OK. We do not have that right now. But there was a tense exchange between Senator Leahy and Judge Gonzales. There also, as you heard a couple moments ago, was an exchange with Senator Biden where Senator Biden was suggesting that Judge Gonzales this morning has not really been answering a lot of the questions directly. You can hear frustration from Democrats about that. But also, there was a Republican senator, Mike DeWine from Ohio, who not on the war on terror but on other issues was pressing Judge Gonzales about what kind of attorney general he would be and was expressing frustration that Judge Gonzales was not really being candid, as well. Senator DeWine, even though he's a Republican, was saying that he wanted more direct answers about what kind of policies Judge Gonzales will push as attorney general. The bottom line is here, you'll mostly hear the heat coming from the Democrats on this panel. You're going to hear a lot of defense from the Republicans, of course. But at the end of the day, when all is said and done, Judge Gonzales is going to be confirmed. Even Democrats are admitting that privately. But they want to make sure that they make their political points. They want to put some pressure on the Bush administration, particularly on this issue of the war on terror -- Daryn.</s>KAGAN: And Ed -- Ed, quick question here. I know these can be bruising, but what's with the Band-Aid on Arlen Specter's nose. I don't suspect it's from these hearings.</s>HENRY: Well, you know, he went through a pretty rough fight among the Republican senators in recent weeks right after the election, in trying to get the chairmanship of this committee. Obviously this is his first hearing. So he got that chairmanship. It did not come from an actual fistfight. I do not know how he got the bandage on his nose. But he obviously is on the mend. And he now has the job. He has the gavel. And this is his very first hearing as chairman.</s>KAGAN: You're right; that was a bruising fight. Thank you so much, Ed Henry on Capitol Hill.</s>SANCHEZ: We're going to have a lot more news coming your way. In just a little bit, some of the developing stories that we've been following, as well as some of the new video coming in from parts of tsunami-ravaged Southeast Asia. We'll have that for you. We'll be right back.