Clemency in Limbo: The Story of Chrissy Taylor
ANNOUNCER: THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN. He's taking plenty of heat for the pardons he granted. She remains in prison after repeatedly appealing for clemency.</s>CHRISSY TAYLOR, SERVING A 19-YEAR SENTENCE: It was President Clinton this time, and I thought, you know, my case had gotten there and it has gotten a little bit of public recognition.</s>GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: Denied?</s>TAYLOR: Denied.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Denied with a reason?</s>TAYLOR: No.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Just denied.</s>TAYLOR: Denied.</s>ANNOUNCER: Tonight, we'll take you inside the Texas prison for the story of Chrissy Taylor.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Anyone in your family ever met a senator or a congresswoman?</s>TAYLOR: No, ma'am.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Do you know anyone who knows the president?</s>TAYLOR: No, ma'am. We're just small people, very small, middle America people.</s>ANNOUNCER: Tonight's</s>POINT: clemency denied.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Do you have resentment toward former President Clinton?</s>TAYLOR: I believe that President Clinton was cruel in granting 21 low-level drug offenders clemency, when there were so many more of us in here that were deserving.</s>ANNOUNCER: THE POINT. Now, from Washington, Greta Van Susteren.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Marc Rich got one. So did Susan McDougal and Patricia Hearst. A former Arizona governor was on the list, and so was President Clinton's brother, Roger. In all, 140 people got pardons or commutations on Bill Clinton's last days in office. But not Chrissy Taylor. Tonight's "Flashpoint": clemency in limbo. Terri Christine Taylor, "Chrissy" to her friends, is serving a 20-year sentence without parole for her minor role in a drug conspiracy to manufacture methamphetamine. She's spent the past 11 years of her live at five federal correctional facilities. Now a 30- year-old inmate at FMC Carswell in Fort Worth, Texas, the only glimpse of life she gets is through the razor-wire fence. Last August, she filed her third application for clemency with the Department of Justice, but she had no friends in high places, and that, she thinks, is why President Clinton did not grant her petition for clemency, and why he might never have even seen it. With her request still pending and with President Bush now in office, she has new hope from being freed from the harsh sentence that resulted from a teenage relationship with Benjamin Alan Roark, a man 16 years her senior. She tried to prove her love by picking up some chemicals for him, chemicals he needed to manufacture methamphetamine. I recently sat down with Chrissy Taylor and heard her side of the story.</s>VAN SUSTEREN (on camera): So, he asked you to go make this pick- up? And what happened?</s>TAYLOR: He dropped me off at the airport. He gave me the money. He -- it was like bundles of money, and he put it in my purse. And he said this is for the order. He said the ticket is prepaid, go pick it up. And go to Mobile, Alabama.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: What happened when you landed?</s>TAYLOR: When I landed in Mobile, I caught a taxi, and I told the cab driver, you know, where I needed to go and he took me to the chemical store. They sell all different kinds of industrial chemicals, or, you know, over-the-counter, all over-the-counter chemicals. So, I went in the chemicals store...</s>VAN SUSTEREN: The salesman filled your order?</s>TAYLOR: Yes. He filled my order. He was -- he took the chemicals, I paid for the chemicals, and they loaded them in the taxi cab. Alan told me to go to Motel 6, because it right by I-10.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: And he picked you up?</s>TAYLOR: The next day he came to pick me up.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Why were you willing to buy the chemicals? Even though the chemicals purchase was legal, you knew he was going to use it for illegal means. Why did you put yourself at risk?</s>TAYLOR: I really didn't think about the risk. I didn't really have any forethought, you know, how much trouble I can get in. You know, I just thought, you know, I'm doing this, I'm doing him a favor. I wanted to show him that I was a big girl, that I could do this for him.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: How old were you at this point?</s>TAYLOR: 19.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: How did you get caught?</s>TAYLOR: As soon as we left the hotel, the police swooped in on us, all around the car, and we were arrested that minute. And I was just looking -- I mean, I was just shocked. I was afraid, I was -- and then there was, you know, officers all around me, and, you know, had guns and were screaming, you know, put your hands on the dash, put your hands on the dash. And they jerked me out of the car, and they told me I was under arrest for conspiracy to manufacture methamphetamine. I went to jail. I was given a court-appointed attorney who had never handled a federal case before. So, he didn't really know exactly, you know, what was going on either, and he really believed that I could win at trial.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: On what theory?</s>TAYLOR: On the theory that the purchase and the possession of the chemicals were legal, and that I hadn't crossed any state lines. And that -- that I was so young.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Was there ever a discussion of a plea offer?</s>TAYLOR: My attorney came to see me. He told me that they offered me a 10-year cooperative plea.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Which meant that you were 19, so you'd be in prison until you were 29, which is younger than you are now.</s>TAYLOR: The 10-year offer sounded crazy to me, because I just didn't associate myself with manufacturing. I had never manufactured. I had never dealt drugs, I'd never trafficked drugs. I'd never done any of that. I was a small-time drug user, but I'd never been involved in any, you know, activity, drug activity, as far as trafficking, or manufacturing, or anything. So, my attorney was like, you know, they're offering you a 10-year cooperative plea. He said: "But my opinion is, we've got a strong chance to beat this, you know, win this at trial."</s>VAN SUSTEREN: How long did the trial take?</s>TAYLOR: Jury selection was on Monday. Trial was on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. The jury came back with their verdict on Friday.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: What was it like when you heard guilty?</s>TAYLOR: Oh, it was like -- my life flashed before my eyes. I didn't -- I didn't -- I didn't believe it. I couldn't believe. Two hundred and thirty-five months is what they said, and I was like, what does that mean? How many years is that, 235 months? And my lawyer was -- he said: "That's 19 years and seven months." I was devastated.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: When the judge sentenced you to 19 years, did he seem the least bit disturbed by the federal sentencing guidelines? Did he think it was a harsh sentence?</s>TAYLOR: Actually, I felt like I was just a part of the heard of cattle that goes through that court. And guilty, and here's your sentence, and bye.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Adios. What about Alan? What sentence did he get?</s>TAYLOR: He got 360 months, which is 30 years.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Do you have any contact with him?</s>TAYLOR: None.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: In how many years?</s>TAYLOR: It's probably been about at least six, five or six years.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: What was the contact five or six years ago?</s>TAYLOR: He sent me a Christmas card. He said that -- he apologized, and he told me that the day I get released from prison would be, you know, the most important day of his life.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Did you respond to that?</s>TAYLOR: No, I didn't.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Why not?</s>TAYLOR: Because why? You know. There is -- what I've had to endure, you know, the suffering, and it's just -- you know, it's too late. It's too late for me to, you know, to respond. I mean, for what?</s>VAN SUSTEREN: When THE POINT returns, we will hear what happened when Chrissy Taylor asked two presidents for help.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Welcome back to THE POINT and my prison interview with Chrissy Taylor. In this part of the discussion, Taylor opens up about her numerous attempts and her continuing struggle to earn her freedom.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: You have applied for clemency on a number of occasions. Let's talk first about the first two. When was that?</s>TAYLOR: I was about 21-years-old, and I was desperate. So I had heard about clemency -- filing clemency to the president of the United States, and at that point it was Bush Sr. It was the older Bush. So I went to the law library and got the forms, and filled them out and sent them in.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: And?</s>TAYLOR: I was denied.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: It was actually denied?</s>TAYLOR: Summarily denied, right away.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: What was your reason that you thought you -- you should be -- you should receive clemency in that first one?</s>TAYLOR: I thought because I didn't have anything to do with the drug dealing and conspiracy in manufacturing. And you know, I just didn't -- I...</s>VAN SUSTEREN: You were with the wrong guy, basically?</s>TAYLOR: Yes. I was with the wrong guy. Because I loved the wrong man, you know. I thought, if I do good, if I go to drug treatment, and if I get my education, and if I do good that they're going to see that and they're going to let me go.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: When did you do the second clemency petition?</s>TAYLOR: In '97. I filed for clemency the second time.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: President Clinton.</s>TAYLOR: It was President Clinton this time, and I thought, you know, my case had gotten out there. It had gotten a little bit of public recognition. And you know, I got a little bit smarter, and I did a little bit better on typing up my papers, and you know, writing the letter. And I -- but I did it myself again.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Denied?</s>TAYLOR: Denied.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Denied with a reason?</s>TAYLOR: No.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Just a "denied"?</s>TAYLOR: Denied.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Your third clemency petition?</s>TAYLOR: I hired an attorney to really look into my case to see if there was anything, anything that could be done, and I thought, well, if I can get back into court, you know, on anything, I can, you know, probably get some points off for extraordinary rehabilitation.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: What were your extraordinary rehabilitations? What was the list of items in your mind?</s>TAYLOR: I graduated from a very intense drug treatment program. In the same -- you know, at the same time, I took my GED, and I enrolled in college courses. I started getting a lot of psychotherapy and counseling. And I was working in the prison industries. And I was learning new things, and I was -- and I had letters of recognition from foremen. And you know, so I turned in all these -- all these papers, all these certificates. In the meantime, we started campaigning. My family, my friends and I, we started writing, we started campaigning for political support.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Is your family at all connected politically?</s>TAYLOR: No.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Were you -- had your family ever donated any money to either political party?</s>TAYLOR: No.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Do you have any sort of -- do you know any big shots in Washington?</s>TAYLOR: No.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Had you ever met a U.S. senator?</s>TAYLOR: No.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Had you ever met a congresswoman?</s>TAYLOR: No.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Anyone in your family ever met a senator or a congresswoman?</s>TAYLOR: No, ma'am.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Do you know anyone who knows the president?</s>TAYLOR: No, ma'am. We're just small people. Very small, middle America people.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: On the night of the 19th, the day before the changing of the presidency, what would you -- what would you estimate as the level of certainty? I mean, were you 50 percent sure, 75, 100 that you would get clemency?</s>TAYLOR: Well, let me just back up a little bit. Amy Pofahl, Serena Nunn got clemency in July. And then Kemba Smith and Dorothy Gaines got clemency December 22nd.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Who are they?</s>TAYLOR: They are former inmates. They were former federal inmates. And I knew these women. You know, I knew Amy. I knew her case. I knew that my case was very similar to Amy's. She was -- she was in here for conspiracy to manufacture ecstasy, and she had a very minor role. And you know, I was very excited, you know, that these kinds of cases were getting recognized, and my attorney, you know, said that my case fit the profile. So we decided to file for clemency.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: So the percentage of certainty the night before?</s>TAYLOR: Oh, it was probably about 95 percent. I was just -- I was just so sure that I had -- I mean, I had packed actually. Probably about a month before, I started putting things kind of together in bags and getting it ready. And my family was very convinced that I was coming home, too.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: January 20th, Inauguration Day, changing from President Clinton to President Bush. Did you expect to hear on that day from the White House?</s>TAYLOR: Yes, I did?</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Why?</s>TAYLOR: I had -- so many different things started pointing in the right direction. My uncle had called Roger Adams at the Department of Justice, and found out that he was, you know, favorable to my clemency. And the Department of Justice was sympathetic to my case. So then I got the political support from Patsy Mink. Then I'd also gotten some other letters from other senators saying that they had forwarded my information to the White House or to the Department of Justice in an effort to be helpful.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: So what time did you wake up on the morning of the 20th?</s>TAYLOR: I got up really early. And I went to the TV room, and I started watching the news: CNN. And the announcer said that President Clinton as one of his last acts had signed clemencies for low-level drug offenders.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: And you consider yourself a low-level...</s>TAYLOR: Exactly that. Exactly that. So I called home right away, and I was like, "Uncle Buddy, did you see the news?" And he said, "Yeah, I'm watching it, I'm watching it." He said: "You're on it, don't worry. You're on the list. Don't worry. You're going to come home." And I just was so excited and just so hopeful. And about an hour later, I went back and I called again. And I was like, "Uncle Buddy, have you heard anything? Have you heard anything?" And he said, "No." And I hung up again. And I waited for a little while longer. And I called back and I said, "Have you heard anything?" And you know, he had a crack in his voice. He just -- he was like, "Baby, it's not good news." And I said, "What do you mean it's not good news?" He said, "You didn't make the list." And I just -- I was shocked. I was -- I felt like my world had ended right then.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: And what did you do?</s>TAYLOR: I just -- I cried. I was in shock. I -- tears just started rolling down my face. I was like, "Oh my God, you're kidding me." And he was like, "No." He said, "Baby, I'm so sorry."</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Do you know, though, if the Department of Justice ever made a recommendation to the president of the United States or whether the president of the United States even had an opportunity to review your request for clemency?</s>TAYLOR: To my understanding now those clemencies that were sent -- that went through the proper channels of the Department of Justice did not get considered. The clemencies that got considered and the ones that got considered and the ones that got granted basically came in through the back door of the White House.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: You say that the pardon -- or the Justice Department was sympathetic to your clemency petition. Do you know whether or not they actually recommended that you get clemency?</s>TAYLOR: I have not seen any definitive paperwork that they did recommend, but I know that -- I know that many, many cases were summarily denied.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: But you don't know the actual position the Justice Department took on yours?</s>TAYLOR: I know that they approved it to be sent to White House.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Do you have resentment toward -- for President Clinton?</s>TAYLOR: I believe that President Clinton was cruel in granting 21 low-level drug offenders clemency when there were so many more of us in here that were deserving.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: What if he made it 22 and you were the 22? Would you still feel that way?</s>TAYLOR: I would still feel that way. I would feel -- I would feel wonderful because I was free. However, I see the pain and the suffering of these women in here doing life sentences for very small roles in drug offenses, and I would feel that I would want to stop at nothing to help them.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Is your petition for clemency still pending?</s>TAYLOR: Yes, it is. According to the Department of Justice, the clemencies that were not concluded under President Clinton transcended to Bush.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Do you have any expectation or hope that President Bush will grant a petition for clemency?</s>TAYLOR: That is my biggest expectation and my biggest hope. I hope that he -- that he listens to the Department of Justice and their opinions and their recommendations. And I hope that he takes the time to really look at these cases, these clemencies, these pending clemencies with compassion. And you know, I hope that -- that he's fair. That -- that with President Bush you don't need political connections or family members, you know, telling, you know, giving suggestions on who to grant pardons to and who to grant clemencies to.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: What are your dreams? What are you going to do in 2006 if you don't get clemency but you get released in 2006? What are you going to do?</s>TAYLOR: Well, I have -- I've never lived. I've never really had a life. You know, I've never -- I've never been an adult in the free world. I've never -- I've never really had my own apartment. I've never really had my own -- I've never paid bills. I've never had a credit card. I've never -- I've never -- there are so many things. I've never had children. I want a child, you know. I've never been married. I want to do -- I want to do normal things. I want to just -- I want to live. I want to have a life.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Chrissy Taylor faces an uncertain future. Most would say grim. Prison is not a place where good things often happen, but I was struck by her sense of optimism, her hope that someday President Bush will do what President Clinton did not. But after I left the prison, as I walked away and took a look back at the barbed-wire fences, I wondered if I had been swept up in her optimism because of her vivacious personality. I wondered if it were not really naivete that she's exhibiting. The fact is getting out of prison is not that easy. A couple of footnotes: We tried repeatedly to contact members of the former Clinton administration about Taylor's clemency petition, but our calls were not returned. And second, referring to Taylor's comments that all pardons and clemencies had come through the back door of the White House is, of course, her opinion. THE POINT returns after a quick break.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Vote for a pig! No, I'm not talking derogatorily about someone whose political views you find unattractive. Tonight's "Final Point," pork-barrel politics. Vote for Eli. Eli is a pig. He weighs 175 pounds, has a back coated with black, wiry hair, pushes popcorn around with his fist-sized snout, and loves to drink Dr. Pepper. He sleeps in a specially enclosed porch with heat and air conditioning. He's also on the ballot in Hurst, Texas. Here is Eli's problem. Livestock can't live in Hurst. Pets can. What is Eli? His detractors say livestock. His friends and owners call him a pet. On May 5th, voters in Hurst, Texas will find on their ballot Proposition No. 1, whether the Hears code of ordinances should be amended to allow for potbellied pigs to live there. My take: 2001 is beginning to look a lot like 1984. And while CNN does not endorse political candidates, if I lived in Hurst, Texas, I'd vote yes for Eli. Let me know what you think. Send an e-mail to askgreta@cnn.com. That's one word, askgreta. I'm Greta Van Susteren in Washington, Next, "LARRY KING."