Syrian Rebels Suspend Peace Talks; Trump Continues to Question Russian Hacking; Will 2016's Populist Wave Roll On?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Tonight, the Syrian opposition pulls out of the Russia/Turkey peace plan and the United States has been left out in the cold. In the reigning days of the Obama administration, I go around the world with U.S. State Department Spokesman John Kirby. Plus, will 2016's populous wave roll on? With three big elections at stake for Europe in 2017, I speak to one of the rare politicians speaking up for liberal economic world order. The rising Dutch star MEP Marietje Schaake. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christian Amanpour in London. It is the final countdown for the Obama administration as a new world order looms on the horizon. In less than 20 days, Donald Trump moves into the Oval Office amid unfinished business at home and around the world and growing global uncertainty. In Syria, for instance, the opposition has suspended its part in planned peace negotiations telling us that both the Syrian regime and its Iran- backed allies are violating the truce. The United States wasn't even invited to those talks which had been planned by Russia and Turkey. Setting up a solution that could look far, far different than one the West and even Turkey touted when the Syria war began nearly six years ago. So what does this all mean for the Obama legacy? Especially for the indefatigable negotiator Secretary of State, John Kerry. His spokesman, John Kirby, joins me from the State Department in Washington. And welcome to the program.</s>JOHN KIRBY, SPOKESMAN, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT: Thank you, Christiane. Good to be with you.</s>AMANPOUR: I did say a new world order is looming on the horizon, and certainly if you listen to the president-elect, he wants to create a new world order. Is that the feeling you're all getting at the State Department?</s>KIRBY: Well, I think I'd leave it to the president-elect to determine sort of how he wants to approach foreign policy. It is clear, and you mentioned this in your introduction that there is growing global uncertainty out there. Certainly, we're seeing a very dynamic security environment all over the world, whether it's the Middle East or the Asia Pacific region. There's a lot of change going on and there is a rise in nationalism and populism that is driving some foreign policy decisions by what will soon be President- elect Trump's counterparts in other countries. But, I mean, these are, these are heady times and these are certainly times to be focussed on the foreign policy agenda very, very strongly. And, of course, those are his decisions, but we stand by and ready to provide them any context that he might need as he gets ready to take office.</s>AMANPOUR: Well, what do you think he's going to take from the fact that right now the Syria end game seems to be being organized by Russia and Turkey with Assad playing a very key role and as we can see, it's not even sure it's going to happen. The rebels have pulled out. The truce doesn't look to be holding.</s>KIRBY: Right.</s>AMANPOUR: But if it does, the U.S. isn't even at the table. How did things get to this point?</s>KIRBY: Well, I think it's very simple. They got to this point because russia was not able or certainly not willing, and in many cases both, to meet their own commitments. Commitments that they signed up to at the U.N. Commitments they signed up to in Geneva, not once, but twice. Commitments they signed up to in Vienna, Christiane. We had many opportunities to try to get a better outcome in Syria, a political solution, a cease fire that could hold, but Russia wasn't able to use their influence on the Assad regime to get that end achieved. So now we are where we are. And you're right. United States was not involved in brokering this latest cessation of hostilities. You're also right that it's not holding in every place around Syria and we are seeing the same sort of thing unfold as what unfolded earlier, which is that Assad and its backers including Iran are simply taking advantage of whatever temporary cease fire there is to continue pounding the opposition. And the opposition is doing what it has done in the past, which is, say, well, look, if you're going to keep bombing us and hitting us, then obviously this cease fire is meaningless and we're going to go on and keep fighting.</s>AMANPOUR: But let me ask you again about Russia. Because, obviously, the great big situation right now is about the Russian hacking. Did it affect the elections in the United States? And the blowback from the Obama administration sanctions. Are you absolutely sure about this? And why does the president-elect keep saying he's not sure and how could the intelligence agencies be sure? Are you absolutely sure?</s>KIRBY: President Obama and this administration is 100 percent certain in the role that Russia played in trying to sow doubt and confusion and getting involved through the cyber domain into our electoral process. There's no question about that. And that's not just an assessment by the president or by Secretary Kerry or other candidates. It's an assessment by the entire intelligence community. The information is there and is rock solid. And we obviously would not have pursued the measures that we pursued without that level of certainty. So, yes, we are 100 percent certain.</s>AMANPOUR: So that's pretty definite. 100 percent certain. And some are saying that the Obama sanctions were sort of a name and shame and to just show to the Russians and the Russian people that you do have 100 percent certainty. But what do you make and what does the State Department make of President- elect Trump calling Vladimir Putin's decision not to retaliate very smart? Do you -- what kind of a relationship do you see right now in the offing between America and Russia?</s>KIRBY: Difficult to say. Look, I mean, our relationship with russia is complicated as it is right now, Christiane. And it's not like there haven't been times over the last eight years when we've been able to cooperate with Russia on a number of things. The Iran deal, climate change, the Paris agreement. And what we had hope for a long time was on Syria, because Russia was a founding member of the International Syria Support Group. But we also have major differences with Russia and we're not afraid to state it when we do and we're not afraid to call it like we see it. Just as the president did last week with respect to their intrusions over cyber into our electoral process. I would also tell you that part of the reason why the president made the decisions he made last week was because of what has become increasing harassment of U.S. diplomats in Moscow, following them, publishing personal information online, intimidating them, false police stops. I mean, all this stuff has been building over a year. So the relationship with them is very, very complicated. Is it where we wanted it to be or want it to be? Of course not. And I'll leave it to the next team to come in to determine how they want to go ahead with Russia and if they can forge a better, more constructive relationship, well, then, you know, certainly that is in their purview. And I think, obviously, a better, more productive bilateral relationship with Russia is good for the United States and for Russia. As a matter of fact, it's good for the world.</s>AMANPOUR: Many have said that North Korea is going to provide the most serious threat. And indeed Kim Jong-un, the leader, has said that they can quite soon have a U.S.-reaching intercontinental ballistic missile, and we know that they are working on tipping that with a nuke. Now, Donald Trump has tweeted that it won't happen. Also following up, he says, China has been taking out massive amounts of money and wealth from the U.S. in totally one-sided trade, but won't help with North Korea. Nice.</s>KIRBY: Yes. So let's back up a little bit here. Obviously, we're watching closely what North Korea is trying to develop in terms of ballistic missile technology as well as nuclear capabilities. Both of which, as you know, prohibited by the U.N. Security Council in numerous resolutions. In fact, the most recent one laid the most stringent set of sanctions on them in the past 20 years. I would also add that China voted for those resolutions. China voted for those sanctions, the most recent ones and China has said publicly that they are going to implement those sanctions. And that's our expectations of them. That's our expectation of every member that signed on to that Security Council resolutions. Certainly, we're going to do our part. China has unique influence and leadership in the region, particularly when it comes to Pyongyang. And we look as we have look to China to exert that leadership going forward. Now, obviously, it is imperative that North Korea not gain these capabilities, because of the danger posed to the region, the peninsula and certainly to our own west coast. And that's why we've worked so hard inside the international community to put the pressure on Pyongyang to make the right decisions. We also have and you notice, Christiane, we have the Asia Pacific rebound also has a military component. So, you know, better than half of the United States Navy is position in the Pacific region now over the last several years. With tremendous capabilities at the ready to prevent, deter, certainly to try to stop any potential attack by Pyongyang on any of their neighbors, including us. And we've also got other forces now in the region that we didn't have just a few years ago. So there's a lot that we have done to try to push Pyongyang into a better place than they are right now. I'll leave it to the next administration again to determine how they're going to do this, but this is something important remember that the whole international community is galvanize now like it never was before. This isn't just a U.S. concern, it's a concern by all our allies and partners, the entire international community, including I would add China.</s>AMANPOUR: And let me just go quickly back to the Middle East, because a brewing controversy, crisis potentially between Israel, Palestine and the United States. We have the president-elect saying that he wants to move the embassy to Jerusalem. Like many presidents have, but none has actually done it. Apparently, according to Kellyanne Conway, his chief strategist and senior aide, there are moves afoot for this to happen. Can you see that happening? I mean, obviously, it must be going through the transition process at the State Department. What's going on?</s>KIRBY: We've not seen any -- we're not privy to any moves, any decisions or efforts, active efforts to go ahead and move the embassy. If that's happening, and I'm certainly in no position to judge here. We're not aware of specific moves that are being made to that end. Our position has been and remains that moving the embassy is not constructive to the peace process. It's not the right thing to do, and we maintain, you know, that that is the policy not just that we've had, but previous administrations have had before us, and we think is wise.</s>AMANPOUR: On that note, Spokesman John Kirby, thank you so much for joining us from the State Department.</s>KIRBY: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.</s>AMANPOUR: Thank you. And when we come back, after a year of political upheaval, the tumultuous elections still to come. Three major European elections will have to deal with the populist surge, and what will the results look like? First up, the Netherlands, and I speak to the Dutch politician fighting the assault on liberal values at home and around Europe. That's next.