Interview With Syrian Democratic Forces Spokesperson; Turkey Focuses On Buffer Zone; Turkish Military Offensive In Northern Syria Underway
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello and welcome. I'm Hala Gorani. Tonight, thousands of civilians are fleeing Syria's northern border region in a panic as a long-threatened Turkish military offensive against Kurdish fighters gets under way in earnest. Turkish war planes and artillery are attacking several towns, beginning what Recep Tayyip Erdogan calls an operation to destroy a terror corridor. This is brand-new CNN video of the aftermath in Ras al-Ain. Kurdish-red (ph) Syrian Democratic Forces say two civilians have been killed so far. Civilians, not evacuated, from what we understand. They are urging the SDF, the world to help prevent a humanitarian catastrophe. The Kurds were the strongest U.S. allies in the fight against ISIS. But President Donald Trump pulled U.S. troops from the area just a few days ago. Now, we're hearing that the Kurdish fighters have suspended their military operations against ISIS to focus instead on the Turkish threat, exactly what many in the West feared would happen. And not just in the West. In fact, Chief International Correspondent, Clarissa Ward is in northern Syria. CNN is the only American network on the ground there, covering this military offensive. Our Senior International Correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh is on the Turkish-Syrian border. Clarissa, I want to start with you. What's the latest on this Turkish operation?</s>CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Hala, we actually were arriving on the outskirts of the city of Ras al-Ain when it came under -- or I should say, just in the moments after it came under Turkish bombardment. We saw at least six strikes, the aftermath of those strikes, big, thick plumes of black smoke. One building, apparently, on fire. Locals telling us it was a cotton factory. And then, just a sort of mass exodus of civilians who were absolutely petrified at this sudden onslaught, and unsure of, really, where to flee to. The streets were choked with traffic, the fumes of those cars, but also that thick smoke from all those strikes. Locals telling me it had been going on for a couple of hours, that the strikes were thick and fast. Many of them were with their families, young children, mattresses strapped to their roofs. I asked them where they're going, Hala, and they simply say, we don't know. We don't know where to go. We don't know where is safe. And that's because, from what we can see on the ground, the Turkish military has been hitting a variety of targets in wildly divergent areas. They've also hit the city of Qamishli, which is over a hundred miles away from Ras al-Ain. We passed through it earlier today, very disturbing footage being shared on social media out of that city as well. So it seems to many people on the ground here, Hala, that nowhere is essentially safe. And don't forget that even if you get out of this so- called buffer zone that Turkey says this military operation is aiming to clear, you are still in a very dangerous and destructive war zone, Hala. So certainly --</s>GORANI: Right. You're --</s>WARD: -- the civilians here, feeling the brunt of this.</s>GORANI: Yes, as is often the case. Where do you even go? Some of these people were displaced from other parts of Syria. Let's go to the Turkish side of the border, Nick Paton Walsh is there. What is the aim of this operation at this stage, Nick?</s>NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Turkey hasn't necessarily laid out the scope of the operation, but the idea behind it is to clear the Syrian Kurdish forces, who Turkey considers to be terrorists, even though I should point out, they have been getting a lot of U.S. backing, a lot of the casualties, in fighting, pretty much the predominant terrorist group in the region, ISIS, over the past years. Turkey wants to clear these Syrian Kurdish groups away from the border, push them back possibly as far as 18 miles into northeastern Syria, to create a safe zone, as they call it, into which they can insert some of the 2 to 3 million Syrian refugees that have come into Turkey since the beginning of the Syrian civil war. That is an enormous undertaking, frankly, one that even the second-largest army in NATO, which Turkey maintains, could perhaps struggle to achieve. So the thought, possibly, is this is a beginning of a gradual process. That maybe Tal Abyad, that we were opposite, watching some of the artillery strikes begin, earlier this afternoon, and the Ras al-Ain, where Clarissa is, may be the beginnings of the territory, which Turkish forces tend to move into -- intends to move into. We haven't seen ground operations at this point, and you would normally expect a NATO military to use air power, use artillery to soften up targets, and then move in slowly around them. The real question is exactly the appetite that President Erdogan has for a lengthy offensive here. He clearly feels he has a green light. In fact, something which was kind of reiterated in the most recent statement from the White House by President Donald Trump. He called it a bad idea, but didn't say that he wanted it to stop from actually happening. Perhaps President Erdogan feels he needs to use that green light to get something done. But whether or not he thinks the country has a domestic appetite for what could be a years' long involvement against a hardened ideological army like the Syrian Kurds, remember, steeled from fighting ISIS in urban environments? We'll have to wait and see. But I think we are going to see this slowly unfold in the days ahead, involving a ground invasion eventually, and we are hearing reports along the border, of military activity and possibly shelling too, here. So this is the beginning of something which may take certainly days, if not weeks, if not even possibly months, Hala.</s>GORANI: Right. Absolutely. Especially if it involves a ground incursion. Stay with us. And, Clarissa, stay with me as well. I can speak, now, to an SDF spokesperson. Kino Gabriel, he's in northern Syria. We're not disclosing his exact location. What do you know about this Turkish incursion? I understand airstrike on Ras al-Ain, Qamishli, which is quite far away, and Tal Abyad. Tell us what you know.</s>KINO GABRIEL, SPOKESMAN, SYRIAN DEMOCRATIC FORCES: Hello. Of course, during the last few hours, Turkey started its military operation against north and east Syria. Several cities and towns were targeted by the Turkish artillery, shelling and airstrikes, starting from the border towns and cities like Tal Abyad, Ras al-Ain, Qamishli, Derik and also, including areas far (ph) behind, like, Ain Issa and al-Qampiri (ph) area. I think military speaking, that is a preparation for the ground troops to advance and to intervene inside Syria. So far, as the information arrived us (ph), we have several casualties, mostly civilians. We have several dead -- or several people who got killed, and others who are wounded by those airstrikes and artillery shelling. And in some areas, we see the people attempting to -- or working in order to procure food and get some supplies for future days.</s>GORANI: Yes.</s>GABRIEL: So everything, I think, countries (ph), especially in those cities, is in some kind of chaos and we are going to monitor the situation. At the current time, I would like to make clear that, so far, the SDF didn't respond against those strikes and shelling. But I don't know how -- for how long it's going to happen, and if it got much worse, of course, we are going to respond eventually.</s>GORANI: You -- when you say you're going to respond, you anticipate a ground incursion by Turkish troops. At that point, what do you do?</s>GABRIEL: Well, of course, I think the Turkish government and the Turkish officials, including the president, made clear that their goal is to invade Syria and to control a huge part of our country.</s>GORANI: Yes.</s>GABRIEL: So far, that SDF, we are going to defend this area and to defend ourselves and our families and our people. And I think we are going to use everything in our hand, and all our possibilities in order to secure the area and to defend it, and try to secure the people in it.</s>GORANI: And how do you intend on responding? Turkey's military is one of the strongest in NATO. How do SDF fighters intend to respond to the might of the Turkish military here?</s>GABRIEL: Well, we know that. And we really know that we can't have to -- or we cannot compare between the equipment and the -- we -- or the supplies or everything that we have, and we cannot compare it to what the Turkish army has. But, again, that doesn't mean that we are going to surrender, just like that, and give the area and give our homeland to the invaders, just because they are attacking us or just because they are stronger. We have, already, fought against the Turkish army and their mercenary groups in Afrin. And even though it is much smaller area and maybe we didn't have as much equipment or supplies as we have now, but we managed to defend the area and to combat the Turkish army for two months, and --</s>GORANI: Yes.</s>GABRIEL: -- I think in wide area as well (ph), what (ph) we have in eastern Euphrates (ph) River, we have more possibility, I think, to defend. And there is more area for the civilians who --</s>GORANI: Yes. But, Mr. Gabriel --</s>GABRIEL: -- move to safety, and --</s>GORANI: -- I just want to jump in because one of the concerns is for these ISIS prisoners that are being held. There are thousands of them in the area where you yourself said you anticipate a Turkish incursion. And you also have fighters who are being re-routed, who are having to focus on this Turkish operation rather than guarding ISIS prisoners' family members. Do you think this means that ISIS members will be able to somehow regroup themselves as a result of this operation?</s>GABRIEL: Well, we don't think so. We already know it, the security situation have decreased during the last few days, as we had to move part of our forces from different areas, closer to the border. And that created some kind of a vacuum. And already, today, in the morning -- sorry, at the first hours of this day, a group of tens (ph) of ISIS sleeper cells gathered together and had an attack against one of our military headquarters in Raqqa.</s>GORANI: Yes.</s>GABRIEL: So we didn't -- we didn't see any operation for ISIS like that. Maybe in Raqqa, of course, in the last year or year and a half. So that really shows that ISIS is going to use and benefit from this operation and from this Turkish attack against north and east Syria, in order to regroup and try to --</s>GORANI: Yes.</s>GABRIEL: -- re-emerge again.</s>GORANI: I just need to get one -- before I get back to Clarissa, one question. I've read a report that the SDF asked for help from U.S. forces, when they were coming under attack today, and that that help was denied. Is that true? Yes or no.</s>GABRIEL: I don't really know about this details and specifics. But in general, we know that the Turkish army was prevented from taking any action, from -- in this invasion or in this operation, that is conducted by the Turkish army, those were the decisions made by the U.S. government and I think the U.S. forces on the ground, here in Syria, whom we have been working together for almost four years, can't do anything against those orders.</s>GORANI: Yes.</s>GABRIEL: So I think it -- this decision should come from the U.S. government, not from the American troops here on the ground.</s>GORANI: All right. Those reports that the U.S. officials in Washington told troops on the ground not to respond to that request. Kino Gabriel, thank you very much for joining us from northern Syria, the SDF spokesperson on the ground. Clarissa Ward, if you're still with me, what did you make of what we just heard there from the SDF, the anticipation that a ground incursion is going to happen? And that, obviously, these resources that they had, fanned out across the country, will have to now refocus their attention entirely on this Turkish incursion?</s>WARD: Well, and I think, you know, Hala, when you were pressing him on the issue of how on earth these Kurdish forces can begin to compete with the military might of Turkey, which is a NATO ally, I mean, it's just simply not a fairly matched fight. So presumably, they will be relying hugely on all of their assets that, as you mentioned are fanned out across this huge border area, you know, over a hundred miles of border, you're talking about. And then the problem becomes, do you create a vacuum? Are you pulling --</s>GORANI: Yes.</s>WARD: -- robbing Peter to pay Paul? And when you're moving those forces away from certain areas, away from Raqqa, like we saw last night, ISIS sleeper cells organizing a coordinated attack on various Kurdish Syrian checkpoints, this is the danger. You create a power vacuum and there are many dangerous actors in this country who are more than willing -- and preparing -- to coalesce, reconstitute and exploit any vacuum that may be created as a result of this ground invasion.</s>GORANI: All right. Our Chief International Correspondent, Clarissa Ward, as I mentioned at the top of the hour, we are the only U.S. network inside Syria, covering this important story. Thanks so much. My next guest says the Turkish operation in Syria could last several months. Hassan Hassan is the director of the Non-State Actors program at the Center for Global Policy. He's also co-author of "</s>ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror." Thanks for being with us. Your first impressions of what we saw today. Were you able to hear my interview with the SDF spokesperson, Kino Gabriel?</s>HASSAN HASSAN, DIRECTOR OF NON-STATE ACTORS PROGRAM, CENTER FOR GLOBAL POLICY: I heard some of it.</s>GORANI: Right. Well, especially, I asked him whether or not -- and he couldn't provide an answer, but whether or not SDF fighters on the ground asked for help from U.S. -- from the U.S. military, and that that help was denied. These are reports that are floating around. What are your impressions of this first day as this Turkish operation starts in earnest?</s>HASSAN: Well, I think that Turkey got a green light from the United States, so that's out of question, for the United States to stand against Turkey. I think whether the SDF is trying to get help from the U.S. or not, that's almost too late now.</s>GORANI: Yes.</s>HASSAN: What's happening today, from the -- like, in the initial phase, seems to be that just Turkey's trying to plant its flag in the northern Syria, probably before Trump changes his mind. And what's happening now is, really, random -- almost random strikes in much of northern Syria. And seems like just Turkey trying to say, we are already started our operation. I think the next stage of trying to send troops will probably start tonight or in the coming days.</s>GORANI: Right. In the night hours, potentially. Now, once you send ground troops, this is a completely different game, of course, on the ground. And you predict that this could take months. And not just that, but that it could be very bloody, very deadly and very messy. Because even though it's a mismatched fight, SDF fighters have been at it for many years. They're not willing to go down without a fight. So this could be a terribly deadly operation.</s>HASSAN: I do think -- I do think this will continue to, in different stages, for several months. It's not going to be just one takeover. I don't think there would be kind of this -- the Kurds are going to put off, you know, a fierce fight against Turkey. I think Turkey is going to choose where it's going to send its forces first, so they're going to probably go to Arab-majority areas, they're going to rely on ground forces, they're going to bomb and bomb until they kind of carve out some presence for them in some of these areas. And then, I hope that Kurdish population will probably leave the area or retreat into the SDF areas south of that zone that Turkey is trying to do.</s>GORANI: Right. But in the middle of all this, as is so often the case, civilians are present in these areas, some of them relocated and displaced from other parts of Syria. What happens to them?</s>HASSAN: Well, they're going to have to, you know, run either north into Turkey, but most likely into places like Raqqa and Hasika. They're going to be the biggest losers in this fight. It's going to be bloody, it's going to be -- we've seen that already, so this is not like the first time Turkey intervenes in Syria. It has done it before in the northwest and northern Syria, so we already have precedents for how Turkey conducts such attacks and the cost, the civilian cost of these attacks. Usually they don't actually try to take over areas town by town, or they send troops --</s>GORANI: Right.</s>HASSAN: -- to fight from street to street. What they're trying to do is basically try to move very quickly, mark their territory and then station themselves there. And I think that's their tactic they're going to use in northeastern Syria.</s>GORANI: But this whole objective of a buffer zone, hundreds of miles wide, 20 miles deep. I mean, this is not realistic, is it?</s>HASSAN: Well, I think it's -- from a Turkish point of view, this is very realistic. In fact, the alternative to that is unthinkable for Turkey. If you want to think about it from a Turkish point of view --</s>GORANI: But how do you --</s>HASSAN: -- I think they are --</s>GORANI: -- police this, Hassan? I mean, how do you police and control an area this wide?</s>HASSAN: Exactly. This is one of the unknowns, the dangers, probably the most dangerous unknowns of this operation. It's going to open new doors. Nobody knows what's going to happen next, nobody even thought about what's going to happen next. This is really Turkey, blinded (ph) or informed, let's say, by this idea that they have to step in and destroy the stateless, this kind of Kurdish idea that's been there. So they -- that's their priority, that's what they're trying to do. What's going to happen next is really something for another day. For them and for the United States, for everyone. Nobody knows what's going to happen beyond Turkey marking that territory as their zone in that part of Syria.</s>GORANI: Hassan Hassan, thanks very much, as always, for joining us. Much more on this story ahead, including importantly what the White House is saying about this. That's coming up in about 10 minutes. But coming up next, we're disturbed to our core. That is how one former colleague is describing a new troubling detailed allegation against a former American broadcast superstar, Matt Lauer. In Germany, what some officials say could be an anti-Semitic attack on the holiest day of the Jewish calendar. Those details, in a live report, are coming up next. Stay with us.