Country Debates Immigration Reform; "A.M. Pop"
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to Monday, everybody. I'm Soledad O'Brien.</s>MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Miles O'Brien. We're glad you're with us.</s>S. O'BRIEN: We've been telling you all morning, of course, that President Bush is going to make a speech tonight on immigration. It's going to happen in prime time. One part of his plan calls for National Guard troops to help out the border patrol. CNN's Lou Dobbs joins us now ahead of the president's speech. Lou, good morning. Nice to see you.</s>LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: It's good to be with you, Soledad.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Thank you very much. What do you make of the president's plan or at least what we know of it right now?</s>DOBBS: Well, I think the structure of the plan is still ambiguous at best. And the fact is that calling out the National Guard to protect the border and secure it is a good short term idea, in my judgment, at least. It depends on the details and to what degree he will actually be able to assure that that border is secured.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Here is what Senator Frist had to say. Let's see if we can roll a little clip of what he was saying. Oh, it doesn't look like we have the tape. In any case, he goes on to say he agrees with you, he thinks it's a good idea. But he also talks about how a wall -- it should be a wall to really support this and secure the border. You say, as many critics have pointed out, short term -- how short is short term for you?</s>DOBBS: I think probably 12 to 18 months. At least that much time would be required for the border patrol, on an advanced basis, to beef up. Fifteen hundred border patrol agents have been added. We have about 11,000 across 7,500 miles of border, as you know, with Canada and Mexico. That's simply an inadequate force. We have three million illegal aliens crossing the borders each year. It's got to stop. Because as I have said, Soledad, for some time, you cannot reform immigration law if you cannot control immigration. And you cannot control immigration if you do not have control of your borders and those borders are secure. It's that straightforward.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Do you think there's any risk in the president making this proposal tonight, Lou?</s>DOBBS: I think there are great risks for the president. The risks are perhaps minimized by the fact that his poll numbers are at the lowest of the presidency. But this could well be the most important speech that this president gives over the next two and a half years. Because he has to deal with the issue which most voters have given him very high marks, and that is national security. But at the same time, they're confounded by an administration and a Congress and a party, the Republican party, in charge of both houses and the presidency that has refused to secure our borders and ports. And that is a disconnect with the American people, who overwhelmingly, in poll after polls, say they want the borders secured and they want it dealt with now.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Speaking of Congress, the Senate, as you well know, will be in debate today. Do you think that there's any hope that they can realistically, by Memorial Day, which is give or take a couple of a days, two weeks away, that they're actually going to be able to draft some kind of measure that everybody's happy with?</s>DOBBS: In my opinion, Soledad, the American people should hope -- and I don't care which side of the argument you are on in illegal immigration or border security -- should hope that this Senate will not move expediently. And Memorial Day about as expedient as it gets in law-making, simply to be able to say to the voters at the midterm elections they tried to do something. This is a very serious issue. It is affecting our economy, our society, our national security. And for the Senate to put forward an artificial date could be both foolhardy and raise the risk rather than diminish them for 300 million Americans.</s>S. O'BRIEN: There's a sense that what the House has already passed, and what the Senate potentially could pass by people who are now knowledgeable on this, that there will be like here and here. Very little room for compromise in between. Do you think, actually, there will be some kind of real, true reform that there'll be able to pass any time soon?</s>DOBBS: Well, I certainly can't prejudge what the president is going to say tonight. But based on what the Senate has done -- Bill Frist assured me, stated directly to me, that he believes those borders should be secured. I agree with him. He's been in consultation with the president. At the same time, the House -- as I have said directly to Congressman Sensenbrenner, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee -- the idea of making felons of illegal aliens is entirely the wrong approach. What we should do is make felons of those who hire illegal aliens. We should, at the same time, secure our borders. And we should first secure those borders before even taking up the issue of immigration reform. This is a disconnect, as I said, between both the House and the Senate and the American people and certainly this president, talking about a guest worker program, that will be very, very difficult to bridge.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Yes, I think that's true. Lou Dobbs joining us this morning. Thanks, Lou. Lou's going to join Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM" at 7:00 Eastern tonight right before the speech and then afterwards, as well. Let's get another perspective now on the immigration debate. Frank Sharry is the executive director of the National Immigration Forum. Hey, Frank, good morning to you.</s>FRANK SHARRY, NATIONAL IMMIGRATION FORUM: Good morning, Soledad.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Nice to see you. What do you think of the president's proposal, what we know of it now? Obviously, it's not official yet. Good idea or bad idea to put troops along the border?</s>SHARRY: Well, I think the practical impact will be limited. In fact, I think border communities are quite frustrated that instead of a professional, accountable border patrol increase, what we're seeing is, you know, troops that have just come back from Iraq being deployed on our borders. So I think it's going to have a political purpose in trying to assuage people on the right who think that the president isn't serious. But I'll be more interested in the part of the speech that has to do with the comprehensive immigration reform. Are we going to combine tough enforcement with the solution for the 11 million people in the country illegally so that they get on a path to citizenship? Are we going to take pressure off of the border which -- where we have about a half a million people coming across the border illegally to fill jobs, but 5,000 visas for that half a million people -- are we going to find a way to have more visas so that we can get control of the border by combining carrots and sticks?</s>S. O'BRIEN: Well, why isn't step one in your mind secure the border first and foremost?</s>SHARRY: Well, you won't be able to secure the border effectively unless you also simultaneously improve and increase the number of visas. That's -- unfortunately Mr. Dobbs has it exactly wrong. To get control of our border, we have to have limits that are realistic. Right now, we force immigrants into the black market of smugglers and unscrupulous employers.</s>S. O'BRIEN: But let's -- you know, let's just do the math here. If you're talking about, as Lou says, three million people coming across, and you have something like 500 -- all right, let's grant him -- we're all guessing at these numbers.</s>SHARRY: Right.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Let's say his number is three million, that's the number he's going with. And you have, as you say, what, 500,000?</s>SHARRY: Five hundred thousand.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Visas. You know...</s>SHARRY: No, no, but...</s>S. O'BRIEN: The idea that better visas are going to keep people who want to come across the border doesn't seem to make sense to me.</s>SHARRY: Well, the serious research says about a half a million people come and settle in the United States each year. The idea of saying that we're just going to lock down the border and those people are going to stop coming is foolhardy. We're going to have tunnels, we're going to have boats, we're going to have increased smuggling fees, we're going to have better fake documents.</s>S. O'BRIEN: But won't you have, at the end of the day, fewer people, though, I mean? If you're first step is to...</s>SHARRY: On the margins, you will. But you won't solve the problem. What the American people want is a combination of tough border security and a solution to the 11 million people that are here so we reduce the illegalities in our immigration system. It's taken us 20 years to make this mess. it's going to take a combination of carrots and sticks if we're going solve the problem.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Do you think there's going to be a compromise measure between the House bill and the Senate bill that's expected?</s>SHARRY: Well, I'm somewhat optimistic the Senate is going to pass legislation, but I'm somewhat pessimistic that it's going to be reconciled with the House bill.</s>S. O'BRIEN: And then what happens next?</s>SHARRY: Well, I'm afraid the American people are going to get more frustrated. I think there's a huge cry for political leadership, and I think, quite frankly, we need a bipartisanship solution. I hope we get one this year, but it's going to take some real leadership.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Let me ask you a quick final question. The rallies that we saw, do you think net positive or net negative overall in sending this debate a certain direction?</s>SHARRY: I think net positive. I think any time you see hard workers and families with American flags, saying we want to be part of your country, it's going to be positive. I know people who are hostile to immigrants, had a negative reaction, but I think, by and large, the American people getting to know that immigrants are hard workers, family people, and they want to be citizens.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Well, I mean, I don't think they're necessarily only people who are hostile to immigrants. I think there a lot of people who watch the debate, even if they hadn't made up their mind, who said, you have people, some of them, how are illegal immigrants, who are leaving work in order to make a statement. I mean, I think a lot of people were confused, frankly, by the images.</s>SHARRY: Well, you know, my 10-year-old daughter says anybody who wants to be part of an America and is willing to risk their life to get here seems to me to be ready to be an American. And I agree with her.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Too bad she's not a senator. Things might move along a little bit faster. Frank Sharry this morning, he's the executive director of the National Immigration Forum. Thanks for talking with us this morning.</s>SHARRY: Thank you, Soledad. You want to stay tuned to CNN for special coverage of the president's speech. It's going to start at 7:00 p.m. Eastern with "THE SITUATION ROOM," with Lou Dobbs, joining Wolf Blitzer, and it's the president at 8:00 p.m. followed by a special "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" at 8:30. At 9:00, LARRY KING LIVE with more on the debate over border security. At 10:00 p.m., ANDERSON COOPER 360 live -- Miles.</s>M. O'BRIEN: All week in our 9:00 Eastern hour, which is coming up in about 18 minutes, our "30, 40, 50" series, and today we're going to take a look at your finances. And this is earmarked for these decades in your life, 30s, 40s, and 50s. Plus, specific advice for you for college debt in your 30s, buying a home and investing in real estate in your 40s, to retirement, living the good life in your 50s. Retirement in the 50s? That'll be good.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Oh, doesn't that sound -- you are only about 10 minutes from being 50.</s>M. O'BRIEN: Stop it. Stop it. The truth hurts. People who can answer your questions will be here, and you can call us at the number there in about 20 minutes, 877-AM6-1300. Operators standing by. In the meantime, feel free to send us an e- mail, AM@CNN.com.</s>S. O'BRIEN: Andy Serwer's "Minding Our Business," not talking about the weather, but business news. What do you got?</s>ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Business news. Yes, I'm here to tell you about a post-Katrina gambling boom. Plus, the coolest name in the music business finally gets into downloads. We'll tell you about that coming up next on AMERICAN MORNING.