Re-Airing Of North Korea And China Renew Old Ties
JONATHAN MANN, INSIGHT (voice-over): Comrades in arms. North Korea's secretive leader departs from his reclusive routine to travel to China, a celebrated visit that may auger well further south. (on camera): Hello, and welcome. Kim Jong Il is easy to spot in a gathering of Chinese leaders. He seems to be just about the only one still wearing the kind of Mao-style suit popular in China decades ago. But things are changing even for him. The North Korean leader is scheduled to hold his nation's first summit with South Korea in two weeks' time. So news of his consultations with the Chinese leadership was closely watched. On our program today -- a brief journey by Kim Jong Il. CNN's Rebecca MacKinnon begins our coverage.</s>REBECCA MACKINNON, CNN BEIJING BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): It was his first venture outside of North Korea in 17 years. North Korean leader Kim Jong Il warmly embraced by China's leaders on a three-day visit to Beijing so secret neither government would confirm it even happened or release pictures until the day after Kim returned to Pyongyang by special train. The timing of the visit is important. Two weeks from now, North and South Korean leaders will meet face to face for the first time ever.</s>ZHANG QI YUE, FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESPERSON (through translator): The Chinese side expressed its support of the upcoming summit and hopes to see positive progress made during the summit, which the Chinese side views as beneficial to relations between North and South Korea and conducive to regional peace and stability.</s>MACKINNON: North Korea continues to suffer from a severe food shortage, now in its fifth year. This week, China pledged to give more food and material aid, although the exact amount was not disclosed. Over the past 20 years, Pyongyang has stuck to its own brand of isolated socialism as China reformed and opened up. China's leaders were eager to show off China's dramatic economic changes since Kim last came here in 1983, and he was proudly shown around one of China's most successful computer companies. Kim reportedly praised China's achievements but did not say whether North Korea would follow suit.</s>YUE (through translator): Kim Jong Il told China that North Korea is building socialism according to its own situation, and the Chinese side is building socialism with Chinese characteristics.</s>MACKINNON (on camera): Chinese diplomats insist Beijing's influence over Pyongyang is limited, but Western and South Korean diplomats say they are hopeful Kim's visit to China this week is a sign that his reclusive regime is not only serious about the upcoming Korean summit, but also about becoming more engaged with the rest of the world. Rebecca MacKinnon, CNN, Beijing.</s>MANN: In fact, reaction to the visit was immediate in South Korea, where President Kim Dae Jung has been pressing his so-called "sunshine police" for warmer relations. Earlier, we spoke with our Seoul bureau chief Sohn Jie-Ae, who said the visit was big news.</s>SOHN JIE-AE, CNN SEOUL BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): South Korean media had been speculating for days now that North Korea's leader Kim Jong Il had been on a trip to North Korea (sic). Major media newspapers have had all front-page stories about it. And when it was confirmed today, they went all full ahead with it. And everybody watched very closely for any signs of what it could mean for the future summit that's coming up.</s>MANN: Well, let me ask you about that. How is it being interpreted there?</s>JIE-AE: Well, people are looking at it in different ways. Number one, they're looking at in a way that Kim Jong Il has made an official visit outside of North Korea to China. And that despite the Chinese explanations in the past that its influence with North Korea has diminished over the years that North Korea continues to regard China as a very important ally and wants to retain its strong relationship with the Chinese government. And they're also focusing a lot on Kim Jong Il's trip to the -- or his visits to the computer factory and the high-tech part of Beijing. They look upon that as maybe a sign that the North Koreans are ready to maybe look at a different path for their future.</s>MANN: Is China's role in the upcoming summit, is China's role in general in events on the peninsula being regarded as helpful to the South Koreans?</s>JIE-AE: Well, South Koreans have, in the recent years, regarded the Chinese influence as helpful and positive. They've regarded the Chinese as an ally in the economic sense and in the political sense in that they believe that the Chinese government does want stability in this part of the world and that the one way to do it would be to at least ease tensions between South and North Korea. So the South is looking towards Beijing with a helpful look. I mean, there have been relationship problems in the past. The main one that's come up recently is the Chinese -- how they deal with the North Korean defectors that go over the borders into the Chinese regions up in the northern part of North Korea. But besides that, overall, they've looked to China to be a helpful influence on relations.</s>MANN: And what can you tell us about the summit that's coming up? What does the South expect, do you think?</s>JIE-AE: Well, the expectations are vague. We're not sure because it is a very first meeting of South and North Korean leaders and that so little is known about North Korea and its leader that people really don't know what to expect. But they are thinking that with such a meeting, they'll have a clear idea of what they can hope for in South-North relations -- whether the North Korean leader is someone that the South Korean leader can negotiate with, whether he has the thoughts and the inclination to really improve relations with the North -- with the South. So it is something that maybe many of the South Koreans are looking for to maybe get a more concrete idea of actually what to look for.</s>MANN: Our Seoul bureau chief Sohn Jie-Ae, thanks so much for this.</s>MANN: Welcome back. The last time Kim Jong Il left his country was 1983. On that trip, he went to China. Between then and now, much has changed. Mr. Kim assumed leadership of his country after the death of his father, and North Korea's relations with China hit a new low when, in 1992, Beijing established diplomatic ties with South Korea. That's why his visit to Beijing is being watched across Asia and in Washington. Joining us now is the former U.S. ambassador to South Korea, Donald Gregg, now president of the Korea Society in New York. Mr. Ambassador, thanks so much for being with us. When you look at this trip, what most strikes you?</s>DONALD GREGG, FMR. U.S. AMB. TO SOUTH KOREA: Well, I guess the first thing I thought of is that Kim Jong Il is secure enough in his leadership position to leave his country. In a very tightly wound society, that's always a very important insight. Secondly, I think it's very important that he's going to China to come back with some broader perspective on the region. And I think that is also very important. I think the Chinese have played a helpful role for the last several years, and I think -- I welcome and I gather that South Korea welcomes the fact that China has opened its door to Kim Jong Il and that he has gone there to take counsel from them.</s>MANN: Well, clearly, China does seem to be nudging him. But I'm wondering which direction you think they're nudging him in?</s>GREGG: I think they're nudging him toward a slow establishment of relations between North and South Korea. I say that because although with the Chinese we have a lot of problems with Taiwan, as far as North Korea goes, we really have quite a convergence of interests. Neither of us wants to see North Korea either implode or explode. Neither of us wants to see them build more nuclear weapons or fire more missiles. And so I think we have a fair amount in common, and the Chinese above all would be destabilized by either an explosion or an implosion on the Korean peninsula so that we are quite confident that what the Chinese are saying to Kim Jong Il is reach out to South Korea and gradually establish more normal relations between your two countries.</s>MANN: Does that explain the timing of this visit? Was it a kind of pregame pep talk before the summit with the South?</s>GREGG: Yes, I would think so, and also it -- while Kim Jong Il is following his father's footsteps. For example, his father's last trip abroad was in 1991 to Beijing after Ceausescu of Romania had been killed. He took counsel from the Chinese then as to how North Korea should evolve. And so, his son is following in his father's footsteps, and I think his prestige is enhanced a little bit by the fact that he now can say I, too, have had a successful summit with another country.</s>MANN: Now, the summit will be a two-sided affair. What do you think the South is doing to prepare? Are there going to be similar pilgrimages to any other capital?</s>GREGG: I don't think so. I think that Kim Dae Jung is a very successful and experienced summiteer. Early in his presidency, he went to Beijing, to Moscow, to Tokyo, and through those visits has established a stronger set of relations with his neighbors than any South Korean has ever enjoyed before. Earlier this year, he had equally successful trips to Europe, where he visited Italy, Germany and France. And of course, last year, he had a very successful summit meeting with President Clinton. So he doesn't do anything -- need to do anything on a last-minute basis. And I think his expectations for the summit are realistically low. I think he's very glad that the summit is going to take place. I think he hopes that he can find something in Kim Jong Il to relate to on a personal basis. I think he hopes that some progress can made in allowing separated families to reach out to each other, and I think he hopes that an agenda for a second meeting perhaps in Seoul can be worked out. I think if those four objectives are achieved, it would be a great success. Anything beyond that, I think, would be gravy.</s>MANN: We heard before our conversation from our Seoul bureau chief Sohn Jie-Ae, who said -- or it might have been Rebecca MacKinnon -- I can't remember -- that the people in South Korea were gratified to get the sense that North Korea is taking this summit seriously. I was struck by that phrase. Is there some question that Kim Jong Il would go through all of this and not take the summit seriously?</s>GREGG: Well, he's been such an enigmatic figure in the South. He's been held in the past responsible for some horrendous things that North Korea has done to the South. We don't know whether that's true or not. But I think that the South is very relieved to see him acting more or less as a normal chief of state would act -- going to visit another country, greeting neighbors, smiling and acting in a genuine unaffected way. And I think that they find that reassuring because in a way there has been some demonization of Kim Jong Il in the past, particularly since many of the things he's been held responsible for have involved violence against South Korea. So the South, I think, is looking for a change, and I think they're very happy to see the visit to China as an indication that the change is coming.</s>MANN: What about Washington? What's Washington's thinking at a time like this, do you think?</s>GREGG: Well, I hope that they're feeling very happy about it. I think that the solution to the problems on the Korean peninsula have to come through dialogue between North and South Korea. We have in Kim Dae Jung an extraordinary leader. And I think that Washington should sort of sit back and say let's let them have a good go, and I hope that we're not being too pushy on the things that concern us, such as missiles and North Korea's nuclear program. Because if we push those issues, then the North Koreas are sure to come back with the issue of U.S. troops in South Korea, which I don't think we need to deal with at this point.</s>MANN: Are the neighbors of Korea, are their interests the same as the interests of the Korean peoples? I'm thinking here of Japan, for example. Would a country like Japan be a player at a time like this? Would it have an interest in what's going on?</s>GREGG: Yes, the Japanese prime minister Mori just paid a visit to Seoul, which was deemed to be successful. He gave Kim Dae Jung some messages to carry to North Korea, and I think the Japanese are very supportive of what is happening. And Russia also wants very much to be a player in all of this. They have immense natural resources which could be unlocked and extracted much more easily if North Korea, the missing piece in the mosaic, were put back in place. So that I think for the first time in history, all of Korea's neighbors are singing from the same sheet of music. All of the countries want North and South Korea to be reconciled because when that happens, the entire region has a chance of achieving both economic and political integration of a level that it has never had before.</s>MANN: The progress that you see and that many people are hoping for seems to be coming at, at best, a glacial kind of pace. Is that the best that anyone can hope for, do you think?</s>GREGG: Well, opening up to the world is a terrible risk for North Korea to take. As more and more people from the outside come in, as more and more is learned by the people of North Korea about how far behind the rest of the world they are, as questions about their inability to feed their own people are raised, there will be questions of accountability. And that, of course, has been the downside of the opening up decision. So I think it is for those reasons that the move toward opening has been slow and probably will continue to be slow.</s>MANN: Donald Gregg, former U.S. ambassador to Korea, thanks so much for being with us.</s>GREGG: My pleasure.</s>MANN: We have to take a break. When we come back -- some of the internal issues and the issue of food. Stay with us.</s>MANN: Welcome back. North Korea's economy has been crushed by terrible decisions and terrible luck. The government resists market reforms. Agriculture has been decimated by drought, and famine haunts its people. Kim Jong Il's visit with China had a complete agenda. Food aid was a part of it, though, and Beijing has promised more. Joining us now to talk about the food situation is Catherine Bertini, executive director of the United Nations World Food Programme. Thanks so much for being with us. For years, even, people were guessing about the food situation inside of North Korea. How much do you, how much does anyone now know?</s>CATHERINE BERTINI, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WORLD FOOD PROGRAMME: Well, the World Food Programme has statistics about the food needs based on what kind of production occurs in the country and the trade that happens. But what we still have questions about are exactly how many people, for instance, have died for lack of food in North Korea. And we know that there were many. But since 1997, World Food Programme has been sending vast amounts of food into the country. We're now feeding eight million North Koreans, and that's a third of the population. We're getting that food through to children especially through schools, and we've seen a marked increase since two years ago when we knew that 17 percent of the children were greatly malnourished.</s>MANN: When were you last there, and what did you see?</s>BERTINI: I was last there in August of last year. It was my third trip. And I saw a lot of difference between then and 1997, when I went the first time. In '97, there were no birds, no small animals, very few children in school and the ones that were, many of them were very unhealthy for lack of food. But by last year...</s>MANN: Let me stop you because you've mentioned something intriguing -- no birds and no small animals. That's evidence of something. What is it evidence of?</s>BERTINI: Sure. Well, we viewed it as evidence of the fact that there was nothing available to eat. Therefore, pets and any animals that could be found had been eaten. But by now, that's replenished. At least there are more animals, even some small herds of sheep and goats, and people raising small animals to be sold and eaten or eaten by the families. And more children in school because there's food in the school and the children are able to eat in school.</s>MANN: Once again, simply from the anecdotal evidence around you, when you travel there -- and so few people have the opportunity -- is it obviously a country that is starving? When you go through the streets, do you see the need for food, or is it hidden?</s>BERTINI: Well, you see the need when you see children, and you see the large bellies and the little limbs and very thin children. And you see it sometimes with adults. But you know, it's not a warm climate. So most of the time, people are covered and it's harder to see the bones in someone's body, for instance, and so for that sense, it's a bit more difficult to find. And of course, the society is very private -- some would say secretive, and that means that many of these things are not pronounced.</s>MANN: Let me ask you about that. Has that changed at all in the years?</s>BERTINI: Well, what has changed is that there are more people, more foreigners, more international staff members there. Years past, there were only a handful of UN staff members, and now there are about 100 people who are working for the United Nations or for nongovernmental organizations, and they're working in the capital, Pyongyang, but also WFP has five suboffices around the country. So we have staff in each of these suboffices, and we are developing different kinds of relationships with the provincial leadership and with some of the essentially the county leadership. Although that certainly takes time for trust to be built on both sides.</s>MANN: North Korea has and clings to an ideology of self-reliance. How much of a problem has that mindset been, and how much does it continue to be a problem?</s>BERTINI: Well, I suppose there are strengths and weaknesses to such an argument. First of all, there are just millions of North Koreans who work very hard in the fields and their communities, and anytime one goes, one sees really thousands of people in the fields and working along the sides of the road. So there's a very strong streak of "We can do this. We can take care of this ourselves." At the same time, though, that sometimes makes people reticent about actually pronouncing that there is a great need for international aid, and there still is. There still are many people who don't have enough food. There is still a need for at least a million tons, which is quite a lot of food, to be sent into the country each year and sometimes people are not so enthusiastic about admitting that. But the point is it is absolutely critical. And those donor governments who give food to North Korea are certainly giving to help the children to become strong and to avoid starvation, and that's critically important still today.</s>MANN: How hard is it to convince the donors to come forward? How hard is it to raise the money and collect the aid?</s>BERTINI: Well, it's always very sensitive about sending aid to North Korea, but what we do at WFP is to say if you send the aid through us, we'll certainly do our best to ensure that we can follow that aid through to the schools and the kindergartens and to the food for work projects to ensure that as well as we can that it's going to the places where it needs to go, so that the people who need it are eating it. And the donors have been very generous. Every appeal that the World Food Programme has made has been fully funded since 1995, and that's with very generous donations from many countries around the world.</s>MANN: There have been rumors and allegations about diversion of aid, about how food going into North Korea to feed children is, in fact, being used to feed soldiers. Is there any evidence of that?</s>BERTINI: Well, every time we hear any allegations, we look into them immediately. And we have found none of these to be true. But what's important to understand is that when food comes in, for instance, from China -- and you mentioned that the Chinese may be sending more food -- that's what's called bilateral aid. It goes directly from the government of China to the government of North Korea. That food can be used for anything the government of North Korea wants to use it for. When food is sent through the World Food Programme, we have targeted programs, and we tell the donors this will go to children in school or this will go to people in exchange for work in the fields. And then we have monitors, 46 of those 100 international staff, or WFP staff members, and we follow the food so that we can report back properly to the donors. So there are two kinds of food that goes into the country, and it very well may be that some of the country-to-country food that goes to North Korea is used for whatever purpose North Korea decides to do with it.</s>MANN: How much time, how much change is going to be necessary for North Korea to simply feed itself, do you think?</s>BERTINI: Well, it's still going to take time, I'm afraid. For the foreseeable future, food aid will be a requirement in North Korea. It is a part of the world which is very mountainous. There is very limited amount of area which actually is available for food production. The climate is cold, and so there will need to be massive amount of changes before the country can even begin to be self-sufficient. And of course, it doesn't have to grow all of its own food. It can trade for it, but that means it needs to develop more economically. And that still is some time to come as well.</s>MANN: Catherine Bertini of the World Food Programme, thanks so much for talking with us.</s>BERTINI: Thank you.</s>MANN: That's INSIGHT for this day. I'm Jonathan Mann. Stay with us. The news continues. END TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com