Trump Ramps Up Attacks; Trump Testing Journalists.
KEILAR: Well, Donald Trump is under fire for his remarks about the Second Amendment. Trump says he said nothing wrong and that the media is twisting his words again. But critics and Hillary Clinton, they're saying, you know, words matter. So let's discuss this. We have CNN's senior media correspondent and host of "Reliable Sources," Brian Stelter, and media columnist for "The New York Times," and a contributor for "The New York Times Magazine," Jim Rutenberg. Thanks, guys, for being here. And I want to start off with a piece that you've written, Jim, that sort of gets to this question of how do you stay objective. You say in this, "if you're a working journalist and you believe that Donald J. Trump is a demagogue playing to the nation's worst racist and nationalistic tendencies, that he cozies up to anti-American dictators, and that he would be dangerous with control of the United States nuclear codes, how the heck are you supposed to cover him. That's uncomfortable and unchartered territory for every mainstream, non-opinion journalist I've ever known, and by normal standards, untenable." This is a different election this cycle.</s>JIM RUTENBERG, MEDIA COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": We just saw it on this program with a, you know, half hour almost interview with Rudy Giuliani. There's a lot that's coming out of the Trump campaign that creates kind of different journalistic relationship, right? Like we just saw Chris with the mayor, who is very much a Trumpian (ph) surrogate, where Chris had to repeatedly say, did you - is that really true and wait a minute and that's not quite what - accurate. So it's a different dynamic. We always do that as journalists, but it's all turned up to 11 right now.</s>BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: I'd like to answer a question you asked Mr. Giuliani.</s>CUOMO: Go ahead, Brian.</s>STELTER: You said, is it appropriate, is it healthy in a democracy, for people to be chanting "lock them up," talking about the journalists in the room. The answer is no. And we all sort of know that deep down inside, don't we? Journalists are exercising their First Amendment rights by covering Donald Trump. The protesters can say whatever they want. They also have a First Amendment right. But to suggest that those journalists should be locked up. We're at the point where Trump and his supporters, some of his supporters, are delegitimizing institutions the United States holds dear.</s>KEILAR: And -</s>STELTER: Not all supporters. But think about this, voting systems, he's saying the election could be rigged. The judiciary, think about his attacks on Judge Curiel. The media. I don't know if Trump's doing this systematically, but he's de-legitimatizing institutions. And that has consequences beyond this election. You know, when you're covering politics 101, journalism 101 rules apply. When you're not covering politics 101, journalism 101 rules go out the window. And that's where we are right now.</s>CUOMO: But you know what, the same standards apply, though. You know, Jim, you're very smart. People should read your piece. But, to me, it's - Trump's been very simple. Dealing with the aftermath of covering Trump is not simple. It's frustrating. And I get why people like you, Brianna, who are out on the hustings with these guys on a regular basis, Katie Tur (ph), I feel for her. That would be hard to be in that crowd. I know what it's like to have Trump people be against you. I'm OK with it because I feel like, look, if you test somebody about what they say, that's your job. You get into it, Trump's going to make it hard for you. He's going to make it hard for you afterwards. Clinton's going to make it very hard for you. Nobody ducks a question the way Clinton does. And I don't means that as a compliment necessarily. But that's your job and what they answer and don't answer, people can then judge. The problem is, there is a perception out there that we favor the Democrats. When Hillary Clinton was getting ready to run and Trump was getting ready to run, I said on the show, man, we're doing Clinton's work for her. Boy, you know, the media is like begging her to run, you know, so she better do it already. People said, oh, you see, you're giving her a pass. No, I was saying that the media wanted her in the race because it would be a better race to cover. We did the same thing with Trump. But people's tendencies are, you're a bunch of lefties, and that means you're not going to do to Trump what you're doing - you won't do to Clinton what you're doing to Trump. Do you think that's true?</s>RUTENBERG: All right, well, first of all, that perception exists and in many cases it exists for good reasons over the course of history, right, in recent decades. That said, it can't be reason to not do your job when you're covering Trump, to worry about the perception. We're not in PR. We're in journalism. We have to be just - we have to scrutinize Hillary just as hard as we can. She -</s>CUOMO: Do you think we do? Do you think that the</s>RUTENBERG: I think equally tough, yes. Does Trump throw up more things that need be scrutinized, especially as a brand new want to be public figure? You know, that's - that's the difference.</s>STELTER: Fact checking Trump is different.</s>KEILAR: Does it give her an advantage? Does it give her an advantage in some ways? And I will</s>STELTER: I think the e-mail coverage this week is showing that Clinton is being vigorously covered and fact checked. But Trump is different. Donald Trump says Barack Obama is the founder of ISIS. Now, on one level, that's a reference to a foreign policy decision by the Obama administration. On another level, that is a coded message suggesting the president of the United States is a traitor. That's what this is, it's a coded message. When we repeat that message, and then we come on the air and we fact check it, some people just take away the idea that it's true. They just hear it and they believe it. In fact, it re-enforces people's beliefs in some cases. That's a problem for the media that I - I don't have the answer to, even if we talked for an hour, I don't know what we'd do in those scenarios. What we're doing right now isn't working.</s>KEILAR: It's such a great conversation. Thank you guys so much. "Newsroom" with Carol Costello is picking up after this break.