Senate Reviews FBI Knowledge Prior to September 11
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: We are still covering some other stories that the FBI is working on. For instance, we are confirming now that the FBI is still keeping tabs right now on what it is calling a substantial number of people suspected of having some sort of ties to terror cells or activities. And our Kelli Arena has been following that. She is in Washington. Let's check with her now. Hello, Kelli.</s>KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Leon. Well, the FBI director, Robert Mueller, has said that the FBI is surveilling what he calls a substantial number, he would be not be specific, but a substantial number of people right here in the United States with possible terrorist ties. Now, in many cases, those people are here legally. But in some cases, they are here illegally. And instead of bringing those people in on visa violation charges or other charges, what they are doing is that FBI agents are surveilling their every move to see who it is that they are calling, what types of places they tend to see, who they associate with. These people obviously have not been directly charged or cannot be directly charged with any terrorist activity. They are just people who the FBI is keeping a close watch on. The director says that it is really pushing the bureau to its limits in terms of resources because these people do have to be surveilled around the clock. And it is the first time that we really have heard such a strong assertion that there are people that do -- may have some connection to the al Qaeda network or other terrorism networks, right here under our noses here in the United States, Leon. This is something that we have not heard publicly before, and the FBI director saying, yes, this is very much the case and we're on it.</s>HARRIS: Well, give us an idea, if you can, of the kind of stresses that the system may be actually undergoing right now, because we just heard a little while ago, Director Mueller testifying about the fact that they had so much material that was not in the computer and it was hard to collate and keep track of all these sorts of things. How many people do you -- if you have any idea -- how many people we're talking about trying to keep track of right now and how difficult that must be if they are just using paper to do it?</s>ARENA: Right. Well, we don't know, as I said, how many people. He did say a substantial number of people. And this is not just paperwork, Leon. This is actual surveillance. I mean, agents who are there, watching, observing, gathering information in any way they can on who these people are talking to, where they are going, who they are calling, who they are keeping in touch with. And the people who are under surveillance -- there is a great range. I mean, these are people anywhere from individuals who are calling known terrorists overseas to people who are distributing al Qaeda propaganda. So there's a wide variation here. But in any case, the FBI says that it is important that they keep an eye on these individuals, despite the fact, as I said earlier, that there is no actual criminal violation that has occurred. These are people who are suspected of having terrorist ties and they just wanted -- the FBI is just wanting to make sure that it has handle on every known person that is here within our borders who could possibly do harm to Americans. You know, Leon, there is a quarter of the agent work force at the FBI that is now devoted to counterterrorism. And when directly asked how many more resources would be applied to this type of an operation, the director said as many as necessary. That is a large percentage of the agent population, as you know. The FBI is not only fighting terrorism, although it that is its new priority, but there are many other responsibilities as well.</s>HARRIS: That's a great point. Great point. Kelli Arena in Washington, thank you very much.</s>ARENA: You're welcome.</s>HARRIS: Let's bring that point up now to our next guest, who is joining us right now, a former member of the community there of the FBI. Former agent Don Clark joins us now from Houston, Texas. Thank you very much for your time this afternoon, sir. What do you make of what you just heard Kelli Arena report that some one-quarter of all the agents right now are so busy working on counterterrorism efforts right now that they may be compromising other missions of the FBI. Does that concern to you hear that?</s>DON CLARK, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, it doesn't concern me that the director of the powers that be have decided to really give the counterterrorism effort a significant push. I mean clearly, post- 9/11, that's probably the right thing to do. But what I do think is that we cannot forsake -- I don't think the organization can forsake, forgo some attention to all of the other criminal ills that we have in our country and in our society here. Those things have to be addressed as well. So there's got to be a delicate balance there. And I have to say, Leon, that throughout and even back in my days of being involved in counterterrorism investigations, there have been significant surveillance activities that have taken place over the past. But keep in mind that as you put more people out there to do more work and surveil and gather information, that takes more people and better equipment to be able to process and do something with it. That seems to be the hang-up in most of this right now.</s>HARRIS: Yes. And that's kind of the thing we have been hearing on Capitol Hill as we have been hearing FBI Director Mueller's testimony this morning and this afternoon. Have you been listening to it today?</s>CLARK: I haven't had an opportunity to listen that much to it. But I have picked a bit here just actually through CNN and listening at some of the things that takes place. If they are going to continue at this intensity, without a doubt, not only will it require more field agents out on the streets to gather this information, but more linguists that's going to have to be involved, more computer literate people who are going to have to be involved, and more people with simply analytical skills to be able to, and I hasten to use this, but I will, because it is overused, but connect all these dots that people have talked about.</s>HARRIS: Can you sit tight for just a second, because what I would like to do is I want to bring in our Kate Snow, who is in Washington right now. We want to talk some more about what we expect to hear any minute here in those hearings on the judiciary committee. Special agent Coleen Rowley, who wrote the so-called -- the whistleblower who wrote the letter -- the memo that's really got everything started there on Capitol Hill, and she actually, I guess, leaked that memo or sent it out to someone on Capitol Hill. Kate Snow is actually, as I understand it, Kate, you have got a copy of what we expect to hear from Agent Rowley.</s>KATE SNOW, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, not exactly. I have some characterizations of what we think we are going to hear from her once we get started her. I think she is going to talk -- I can tell you she is going to talk about why she wrote the letter, first of all. We have known for some time that she agonized over this letter, that it took her about a week of revising it before she finally delivered it to both the FBI director, Robert Mueller, and also to a couple -- at least a couple of senators here on Capitol Hill. She will talk about that. But then mainly, what she's going to do is lay out what she sees as the problems with the FBI, what she sees with the bureaucracy of the FBI. She points to the bureaucracy as one of the biggest problems. She is going to talk in general themes about risk aversion and about people at the FBI feeling like they don't want to take chances because they might make a mistake. She sees that as a clear problem. She is also going to talk about too many levels of bureaucratic layers, as I just mentioned, too many reports, endless paperwork, agents being told that they have to complete paperwork that she will define as irrelevant or just busy work. And then she is also going to talk about roadblocks, and this goes to what happened in her particular case with the information coming out of the Minneapolis field office. She, of course, is the general counsel of that office in addition to being a special agent there. And she saw information flowing to headquarters and being blocked. She saw them asking for a warrant to go after Moussaoui's computer records, for example, and some of his other personal effects. That warrant was blocked, in her view. She will talk about roadblocks in general. She is going to make some suggestions for change, including lifting burdens on lower-level people, changing the FBI culture, and a theme that we have heard again and again this morning, Leon, asking that technology be implemented at the FBI. We have heard the senators ask that of Robert Mueller time and again this morning, why don't they have adequate computers, so that, for example, if there are memos out there on the same subject, someone can go to a database and find all the information on that subject that's been gathered all over the country -- Leon.</s>HARRIS: Yes, that was pretty alarming to find they didn't have that. They have got that, you know, in my son's elementary school. They can do that with a Google search. Let's go back to former agent Don Clark over there in Houston. I would like to ask you what you think about what you just heard there Kate describing or characterizing what we may be hearing here from special agent Rowley. Does that sound to you like a pretty fair characterization of the FBI's culture up until now?</s>CLARK: Well, not exactly. I think, Leon, we have to keep in mind that I feel very certain that this Agent Rowley is very committed to her position and she has her opinion. And I know that she is probably committed to those things. But keep in mind, this is a field agent, a general counsel of an office, if you will, who is there to give advice and counsel to the head of the office and the other investigative agents there, and clearly will have an opinion about those things. But, nonetheless, there are layers that are required, that absolutely need to be in place to make sure that all rules, policies and guidelines are adhered to. And I would suggest that it's probably appropriate, and obviously they are going to do it, for Congress to listen to this agent and get the information. But I think it would be a tragedy if we rush to judgment here on one agent's characterization and opinions about how things ought to be in a very complex organization like the</s>FBI. HARRIS: Well, unfortunately, we are going to have to rush to a break right now. Former agent Don Clark, we thank you very much for your insights. Sure would love to talk with you later on down the road about all this after it's all wrapped up.</s>CLARK: Thank you. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com