A Counter-Memo on "Torture"; "Mortal Threat" to U.S. in Pakistan
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: To our viewers, you're THE SITUATION ROOM. Happening now, breaking news -- new fears that violent extremists could take over nuclear-armed Pakistan. A dire warning from the secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, as Taliban fighters move closer and closer to the Pakistani capital. After President Obama dropped key restrictions on dealings with Cuba, Cuba's president, Raul Castro, says he's ready to talk about everything. Now, his brother Fidel says not so fast. And they've been targeted by arsonists for using animals in their research labs. Now, scientists are staging protests of their own against what the FBI calls domestic terrorism. I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM. Fresh controversy today over what some are calling torture -- those harsh interrogation techniques authorized during the Bush administration. One former Bush official says he objected to the interrogation methods and that his attempts to -- to go forward with trying to avoid those techniques were actually suppressed. So what exactly is going on? We asked CNN's Brian Todd to take a closer look. A pretty explosive charge from inside the Bush administration.</s>BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It certainly is, Wolf. This former State Department official, this gentleman here, Philip Zelikow, says he doesn't know who at the White House tried to squash his position. But he said he did send a warning that the legal arguments for enhanced interrogation wouldn't hold up in court.</s>TODD (voice-over): Memos stating that waterboarding, sleep depravation might be legal -- Philip Zelikow was a top deputy to former secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, when the memos were first circulated in 2005 and remembers his first thought about the government interrogation program.</s>PHILIP ZELIKOW, FORMER DEPUTY TO CONDOLEEZZA RICE: This was a much more systematic and Orwellian program than I had thought it was.</s>TODD: Some months later, Zelikow, who was also once executive director of the 9/11 Commission, decided to circulate his own memo. It said this about the legal argument for enhanced interrogation.</s>ZELIKOW: The legal reasoning in this memo presents a view of American Constitutional law and what would be allowed in America under our Constitution, that I thought was an extremely unreasonable view of our prohibitions against cruel and inhuman treatment in our own country.</s>TODD: Zelikow says his colleagues told him his memo wasn't popular at the White House.</s>ZELIKOW: They thought the memo was way out of line. And, in fact, I was told the White House had asked that all copies of the memo be collected and destroyed.</s>TODD: But Zelikow believes one or two copies were saved and are in the State Department archives. When we asked him for a copy, he said he didn't have one and that it would be classified. We called the offices of former President Bush, former Vice President Cheney and some of their deputies, but could get no response. A former White House counsel under the first President Bush says he doesn't know about Zelikow's memo, but doesn't believe someone would try to destroy it.</s>DAVID RIVKIN, FORMER ASSOCIATE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: And there's an enormous difference between saying I wish you didn't do that to let's suppress it. And, of course, the proof is in the pudding. It didn't get suppressed.</s>TODD: David Rivkin believes White House officials would have figured Zelikow would keep a copy of that memo and that they wouldn't get away with trying to destroy it. We asked Zelikow about that. He said it perplexes him, as well, but he believes an effort was made to destroy his memo. Again, he does not know who that was. Incidentally, he first wrote this about this experience on "Foreign Policy" magazine's Web site -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: Now, Zelikow's boss was the then Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. What -- what was her involvement in all of this?</s>TODD: Zelikow claims that Condoleezza Rice backed him up the entire way in his efforts to try to present a counter argument to these legal memos. We called Secretary Rice's office this afternoon. Her chief of staff said she would not comment on any of this. She's staying out of it for right now.</s>BLITZER: All right, Brian. Thanks very much. The debate continues. Let's move on to the breaking news right now. With Taliban extremists poised to take over a district just outside the capital of nuclear-armed Pakistan, the secretary of State, Hillary Clinton says she sees that as a mortal danger to the United States itself. Let's bring in our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr. She's got more on this developing story that is causing an enormous amount of concern here in Washington -- Barbara.</s>BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Wolf. You know, the U.S. has paid Pakistan billions of dollars to fight terrorists. Right now, it's not looking like money well spent.</s>STARR (voice-over): It's a chilling notion -- could the Taliban be planning and succeed in taking over Pakistan?</s>HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We cannot underscore the seriousness of the existential threat posed to the state of Pakistan.</s>STARR: The problems have moved beyond the lawless border region. After seizing the Swat Valley, Taliban militants have increased their presence in the neighboring Bunder District, some 60 miles from the capital, Islamabad. The U.S. doesn't believe militants have full control of the region, but that may not matter. The Taliban vow to bring Sharia law here. That means few rights for women and swift, hard line justice -- all a challenge to Pakistani president, Asif Ali Zardari. Admiral Michael Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, is back in the region for more meetings with Pakistani commanders. U.S. officials insist Pakistan still fully controls its nuclear weapons, but there is deepening U.S. worry that Pakistan's military remains reluctant to challenge the Taliban and their effort to appease militants may have simply emboldened them.</s>MAJ.  GEN.  MICHAEL S.  TUCKER, U.S. ARMY: It is on our radar. We're concerned about that.</s>STARR: Concerns are only growing. The latest U.S. assessment -- insurgent leaders may have thousands of fighters in their ranks.</s>STARR: And one of the big questions for the Obama administration now, Wolf, is, of course, the obvious -- if the Taliban were to take over Pakistan or really make that attempt to do so, would the Pakistani military step in and take over before the Taliban could? It's not a scenario the U.S. wants to face -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: But the Pakistani military is a huge military, Barbara. They have a half a million soldiers right now on active duty, another half a million in the reserves. They clearly could deal with a few thousand of these Taliban fighters if they had the -- if they had the orders to do so. I assume that's the assessment over at the Pentagon.</s>STARR: That is the assessment that you -- you know, you fingered it, Wolf. It's the orders to do so. The U.S. the Pentagon has been pressing the Pakistani military commanders to issue those orders to crack down. And so far they haven't. And what only appears to be happening is that the Taliban are growing in power and influence, challenging the central government of Pakistan. And it's putting the Pakistani military in a very difficult position -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: All right. Thanks very much, Barbara. Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon watching this story. Let's go back to Jack. He has "The Cafferty File" -- a lot of concern here, Jack, about what's happening in a nuclear-armed Pakistan, even as we speak.</s>JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, although the interview you did earlier with the Pakistani government official, he didn't seem to be that concerned. He treated it like they were isolated in a valley surrounded by mountains and that the Pakistani military was more than capable of meeting the challenge, should it become necessary. The question is, who do you believe on this stuff? President Obama's national intelligence director says that Bush era interrogation techniques, which many call torture, may have worked. Dennis Blair wrote in an internal memo: "High information came from interrogations in which those methods that were used and provided deeper understanding of the al Qaeda organization that was attacking this country." Blair added he'd like to think he would not have approved such methods in the past. But he doesn't fault the people who made the decisions at the time and will defend those who carried out orders that they were given. He says the information gathered was valuable, in some cases, but there's no way of knowing whether they could have found out the same things using other methods. Blair says the bottom line is these techniques have hurt America's image around the world and the damage they have done has outweighed any benefits. Former Bush administration officials have argued the interrogations were an important part of the war on terror. Former CIA Director Michael Hayden says the use of these techniques: "made us safer." And former Vice President Dick Cheney agrees. He says that he's asked the CIA to declassify other memos that show what was gained from these harsh interrogations. Just yesterday, President Obama left open the possibility of criminal prosecution for former Bush administration officials who authorized this stuff. But he continues to insist that the CIA officers who carried out the interrogations should not be prosecuted. Meanwhile, a new Senate report shows senior Bush officials authorized aggressive interrogation techniques like waterboarding and forced nudity despite concerns expressed by both military psychologists and lawyers. So here's the question: If so-called enhanced interrogation techniques yielded results, does that make them OK to use? Go to CNN.com/caffertyfile and post a comment on my blog. The old ends justifies the means conundrum -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: Good question, Jack. Thank you. Shock and sadness at the apparent suicide of a top Freddie Mac executive. Is it linked to investigations of the troubled mortgage giant? We're learning new details. Stand by. And new developments in the alleged wiretapping of a powerful Congresswoman. The House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, now revealing what she knew about all of that. And fighting anti-American hatred in the Arab Middle East -- Jordan's Queen Rania is here in THE SITUATION ROOM with some advice and a reality check.