Numerous Officials Testify U.S. Was Pressuring Ukraine; Labour Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn Accused Of Racism
GORANI: Back now to our top story. The impeachment inquiry into U.S. president, Donald Trump, and the quid pro quo at the heart of it. It appears Ukraine's president was ready to agree to Mr. Trump's demand to investigate his political opponents in exchange for that $400 million in military aid. The New York Times reports that in early September, President Volodymyr Zelensky was close to announcing the investigations when the White House went ahead and released the aid because Congress had started asking questions about it. Trump administration officials had even sent Ukraine drafts of a statement announcing the investigation into Joe Biden and his son. Joining me now is global affairs analyst, Michael Bociurkiw. He's the former spokesperson for the Organizations for Security and Cooperation in Europe, and has spent time in Ukraine. So let's talk about how this is all putting Ukraine in a tricky situation, right? President Zelensky, newly elected on an anti-corruption platform, and then this happens. They're between a rock and a hard place. They need this money.</s>MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: A very, very tough place. And don't forget right now, they're in the midst of negotiating a historic peace agreement with Russia, with Putin. And without that even perceived backing of the United States, the White House is very, very difficult to do. As for the New York Times report, I do take a little bit of issue with it.</s>GORANI: Yes.</s>BOCIURKIW: What I hear from a whole bunch of diplomats and other sources in Ukraine is that there was no policy, really. It was a policy of silence, don't say anything to upset the White House. But now, they're actually re-evaluating it, as I said in my CNN op-ed piece. And there's even talk into Europe, maybe pushing for a joint address to Congress, to show that bipartisan support, because Zelensky and Ukraine needs to get the message out, we're not corrupt. We're here to build a peaceful and successful Ukraine.</s>GORANI: So just so we're clear, The New York Times report suggests that Zelensky was basically on the verge of making that announcement, but your sources are saying, within the Ukrainian government, that that was not the case?</s>BOCIURKIW: Correct. Because the ground -- the basic policy there is to not upset either party. That's always been the kind of basic Ukrainian foreign policy when it comes to the United States. But now, what they're also doing, Hala, is they're also re-evaluating foreign policy relations with the U.S., and maybe leaning closer towards European partners, because again, they do need strong backing from countries like France, Germany, to pressure for that peace agreement.</s>GORANI: Now, one of the things you say in your op-ed on cnn.com is that -- and you touched on this, and your first answer is that Zelensky should address the U.S. public directly, maybe even a joint session of Congress. But how would he go about doing this? He would need some support coming from Washington in order to achieve this.</s>BOCIURKIW: Sure. I know Netanyahu has more influence in Washington --</s>GORANI: Yes. He's done that in the past.</s>BOCIURKIW: He's done that. So if they were following that tact, I think it could happen because even Bill Taylor, Ambassador Taylor told me is that there is that strong bipartisan support in Washington and he would be in favor of such a thing.</s>GORANI: But what would he achieve?</s>BOCIURKIW: Well, two things really. One is to get the message across that Ukraine needs strong U.S. support, economic, military, also for getting that peace agreement, but also to put across the message that, no, we're not corrupt. Every time Trump and his circle seem to open their mouths about Ukraine, they mention the word corruption. So it's really important that they also get that across, too.</s>GORANI: But on the phone call he said things that maybe people who are ready to see the -- an inclination for corruption could pick up. For instance, he mentioned staying at a Trump hotel. I mean, it seemed like he was using the type of language that -- I mean in a phone conversation with a much, much stronger and more powerful world leader was perhaps designed to flatter Donald Trump.</s>BOCIURKIW: Right.</s>GORANI: But at the same time, perhaps, you know, was not the best transcript for Zelensky to have released.</s>BOCIURKIW: I agree. And, you know, he is a former T.V. comedian. He is in that type of, you know, mindset to flatter and to be funny. But he didn't come across very well. And I think the Ukrainian public have problems with that. But look, that's what most world leaders do now when they meet with President Trump. And then the other thing is, how do you go up against someone who approaches foreign policy as if it's an Atlantic City casino transaction deal? Trump is very transactional. And for someone new like Zelensky to deal with him, almost like a mafia boss is very, very difficult. So they're learning as they go along. But I think now they're prepared to re-evaluate the policy and do something like that address before Congress and also speak up more for Ukraine.</s>GORANI: And you mentioned European countries and how perhaps the Ukrainian government would be wise to turn to countries -- Macron, for instance today --</s>BOCIURKIW: Yes.</s>GORANI: -- you saw his comments about</s>NATO. BOCIURKIW: Yes.</s>GORANI: How does that fit in? How does that?</s>BOCIURKIW: Well, I think that macron, with Angela Merkel retiring soon, wants to appear to be the states person of Europe, kind of the peace broker. So he's very, very keen on getting a deal together where Putin and Zelensky would agree to a peace deal for the east of Ukraine. But there's a long way to go. There are a lot of technicalities. So it's really important that they all get on the same page and push this deal forward, because they can't afford to wait much longer for a peace to come to Easter Ukraine.</s>GORANI: All right. And I encourage our viewers also to check out your op- ed on cnn.com. Lots of great analysis there. Thank you so much for joining us, Michael, and nice to meet you in person, finally, after all these years of speaking down the line over satellite. On the day Britain's Labour Party wanted the nation to focus on its plans for the economy, its leader is facing some scathing criticism from two different sources. The U.K.-based newspaper, the Jewish Chronicle, published a damming editorial calling Jeremy Corbyn a racist and urging voters to think carefully before casting their ballots on December 12th. It comes on the same day a former member of the Labour Party made an extraordinary call for party supporters to back the back conservatives. Ian Austin said he believes Jeremy Corbyn is unfit to be prime minster.</s>IAN AUSTIN, FORMER BRITISH LABOUR PARTY MP: I think it's a disaster for my party and it's a disaster for our country. And it's a really difficult choice, but decent mainstream patrioting Labour voters have to ask themselves whether Jeremy Corbyn, who supported terrorism, supported extremism, backs our country's enemies, whether he can be trusted to lead it. And I just don't think he can.</s>GORANI: Nic Robertson joins me now. So Nic, let's talk about -- I mean I'm always hesitant to look at polls. But after all, I mean, at some point, you need a gauge of some sort, right? But six weeks out, the conservatives have an advantage.</s>NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Ultimately, they do.</s>GORANI: They have an advantage.</s>ROBERTSON: They basically 10 points over and above Labour at the moment.</s>GORANI: They're retreating slightly.</s>ROBERTSON: They're retreating slightly and polls are polls. And let's remember in the 2017 election and the 2015 election, the polls in this country, as many countries, that's actually just weren't very accurate. So this far out, it is -- don't set your heart on those polls.</s>GORANI: Maybe we should just give up on polls all together.</s>ROBERTSON: Let's not entirely ignore them.</s>GORANI: I don't know.</s>ROBERTSON: And certainly the parties look at them. I mean the parties are looking when they have days like today where the Labour Party has bad news, not only Ian Austin but Tom Watson, the deputy leader, stepping down.</s>GORANI: How much will that hurt the Labour Party?</s>ROBERTSON: You know, today was supposed to be the big message about the future finance, what both parties were going to do. Both the Chancellor of the Exchequer and John McDonnell from the Labour Party, both laid out broad terms, Labours talking about borrowing a lot more and spending a lot more, hundreds of billions, and conservatives tens of billions, nevertheless, going over their own thresholds for borrowing. Massive infrastructure projects. But that all gets lost. It all gets lost when you have an M.P. like Austin speaking. And it gets lost for Boris Johnson when you have some of your own, you know, cabinet members -- one cabinet member resigned. Another one was -- used very inappropriate comments, had to backtrack on that. The spin machine was getting out of kilter doctoring videos. But today, the prime minister had a whistle stop tour. I mean, he was in tea side at a tea factory. He was in Scotland at, guess what, a whiskey distillery.</s>GORANI: Right.</s>ROBERTSON: And he was in Northern Ireland at a crisp factory.</s>GORANI: Yes, but still, Brexit, the dark cloud of Brexit is hanging over this entire process.</s>ROBERTSON: Oh, totally.</s>GORANI: And in the end -- in the end, even though -- and this is something that I found out that was interesting that just a few months before the referendum of 2016, the issue of Brexit for voters was not even, I think, in the top seven or eight issues they cared about.</s>ROBERTSON: And today --</s>GORANI: And today, it is probably going to be one of the determining factors of the election of December 12th, because this country has just been paralyzed now for 2-1/2 years. So the two parties, main parties, are having to campaign on that. How is the Labour Party going about it?</s>ROBERTSON: Well, that, and I would also add to that, they would have you believe that they're the only two parties. You know, when Boris Johnson yesterday laid out his sort of big campaign kickoff speech, he was -- he was hammering on Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the Labour Party. You wouldn't have any idea that there was a liberal Democrat Party or the SMP in Scotland. And what you wake up today is the news that 60 seats in England and Wales, there's going to be pact between the Green Party, the liberal Democrats and Welsh National Party, to not compete against each other so that they push and allow the maximum votes to go to a single remain candidate.</s>GORANI: And it's already getting dirty. I mean, Boris Johnson compared Jeremy Corbyn to Stalin. So, you know, hyperbole there. So these attacks are, I think, only going to get more and more colorful as we approach the big day.</s>ROBERTSON: Jeremy Corbyn said he wouldn't get into those type of personal attacks, but even he is sort of framing this as a Labour conservative affair, if you will. And we understand that the T.V. debate would be just between the two leaders, and the liberal Democrats are complaining about that Scottish national party are complaining about it.</s>GORANI: Why is that though in the U.K.? I mean, shouldn't you have all the main parties represented? Why only the two main parties?</s>ROBERTSON: Some people would say -- use the expression a stitch-up because it's simpler for those two parties and they think that they can maximize a share of the vote if the electorate isn't getting --</s>GORANI: No, I mean why doesn't the broadcaster include the other parties? Why is it just the two main parties?</s>ROBERTSON: You know, let's look back when they had the debates over the E.U. referendum, leaving the European Union. It was very difficult to get some of the players, and going back to the 2017 election as well, to get some of the players to show up and agree to turn up. So the parties have power in this. And while they were -- while right now it appears that they'll agree to turn up when it's one-on-one, Corbyn versus Johnson, it's harder -- it's harder to get those players to buy and if you bring other candidates along.</s>GORANI: Maybe voters want to hear from everyone. You saw that story of the New Zealand M.P. responding to a heckler by calling him a boomer. You're a boomer, 1960 -- it's 1960 -- yes, up until 1964.</s>ROBERTSON: Oh, I qualify.</s>GORANI: You qualify.</s>ROBERTSON: I was called a boomer -- a boomer.</s>GORANI: I'm a Gen-X. The generational divide was on full display. I'll be speaking to Richard Quest -- Richard Quest about the generational divide on full display when an older heckler in the New Zealand parliament tried to cut off a younger M.P. Her response, OK, boomer, raised some eyebrows. We'll be right back.</s>CHLOE SWARBRICK, NEW ZEALAND GREEN PARTY MP: -- outside at a short political term.