Rudy Giuliani Makes U-Turn on Ukraine Trip
WHITFIELD: Trump's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani turned heads when he announced a trip to Ukraine to press for an investigation into Joe Biden. And he then defended the decision. Well now, it looks like Giuliani is not going. Here's what Giuliani told Fox News.</s>RUDY GIULIANI, TRUMP PERSONAL ATTORNEY: Well, I've decided, Shannon, I'm not going to go to the Ukraine.</s>SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: You're not going to go.</s>GIULIANI: I'm not going to go because I think I'm walking into a group of people that are enemies of the President, in some cases enemies of the United States. And in one case, an already convicted person who has been found to be involved in assisting the Democrats with the 2016 election --</s>WHITFIELD: Ok. So it's not clear who Giuliani is referring to. His announcement however does come just hours after President Trump told Politico that he planned to speak with Giuliani about that trip to Ukraine. Joining me right now CNN political commentator and "Washington Post" assistant editor David Swerdlick; and former senate judiciary staffer and Brennan Center for Justice Fellow Victoria. Good to see both of you.</s>DAVID SWERDLICK, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hey -- Fred. All right. So David -- you first. So the trip is off but you know, even though it's off, was this sort of another Russia if you're listening kind of signal but this time involving Ukraine?</s>SWERDLICK: Good morning -- Fred. I'm not exactly sure what it is. But the fact that the trip is off is sort of almost beside the point, right? If you look at the way that Rudy Giuliani approached this and as you noted this is the President's personal lawyer, not someone associated with the White House or the Justice Department going to sort of drum up an investigation. He's gotten what he wanted or needed out of this already. He's gotten pickup in the New York Times. This is now being discussed by us here on CNN. And so now, President Trump in subsequent interviews can kind of go out and talk about it because it's in the blood stream. Whether or not there's anything to this potential investigation of ties between a trip Vice President Biden took to Ukraine and what Hunter Biden was doing with his business interest in Ukraine, it matters less than the fact that now there's a new thread in the whole narrative of where the Russian investigation start and more convolution of about who is on which side with respect to the Ukrainians and Russians. And that, I think, works to the benefit of the administration as they want to murky the waters as far as, you know, what's going on here with Russia.</s>WHITFIELD: And so Victoria -- do you see this benefitting the Trump administration or do you see it potentially backfiring especially when people look a little further into, you know, Hunter's involvement with this Ukraine energy company and Joe Biden apparently back in the day even trying to intensify investigations of what was going on in Ukraine while at the same time trying to protect his son?</s>VICTORIA BASSETTI, FELLOW, BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE: Yes, I think this does definitely benefit the Trump administration. I think what's going on is they've thrown up a lot of dirt, a lot of dust --</s>SWERDLICK: Yes.</s>BASSETTI: -- and they're kind of create this whole narrative and conversation about something, which you know, is not even ripe for discussion yet. We don't know the facts, we don't know entirely what's going on. But they've managed to get coverage in the "New York Times". They managed to get, you know, coverage across all of the media about, you know, muddying up and tarring up Biden and his son. And in the meantime what they're doing is they're using the power of 10,000 lawyers at the Department of Justice and the power of the presidency to essentially attack a political enemy and to use the power of the Department of Justice and the power of the federal government for those ends.</s>WHITFIELD: And David -- I mean it's extraordinary because we're talking about on the heels of an investigation stemming from the meddling of a foreign adversary, Russia, into the U.S. elections --</s>SWERDLICK: Right.</s>WHITFIELD: -- and now you hear the personal attorney of the President talking about, you know, Ukraine and potential meddling in the election so as to benefit the President and the President telling Politico that he thinks it would be ok for his attorney general now to investigate Joe Biden who, as Victoria just underscored, would be, you know, a potential opponent, you know, for his --</s>SWERDLICK: Right.</s>WHITFIELD: -- incumbency. So this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And remember, it was Senator Kamala Harris who probed the attorney general about any kind of potential investigations. Listen.</s>SENATOR KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Has the President or anyone at the White House ever asked or suggested that you open an investigation of anyone, yes or no please, sir.</s>WILLIAM BARR, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: The President or anybody else.</s>HARRIS: Seems you would remember something like that and be able to tell us.</s>BARR: Yes. But I'm trying to grapple with the word "suggest". I mean there have been discussions of matters out there that they've not asked me to open an investigation.</s>WHITFIELD: So David -- you know, would this exemplify any kind of like overreach, some sort of violation?</s>SWERDLICK: OK. So Fred -- I think to be clear from that clip which we've all seen now a bunch of times, I don't think you can necessarily know which investigations or potential investigation that the Attorney General thought he was being asked about. But the problem with that whole exchange is that Attorney General Barr, a very smart lawyer, the head of the Justice Department, you know, sitting there saying like, oh, Senator I'm not sure what you mean by the word "suggest" really was disingenuous, I thought. Look, I agree with what Victoria was saying a moment ago about how everything is -- the waters are being muddied up. That doesn't mean that Hunter Biden or Vice President Biden or anybody in the United States is exempt from being looked into. And if there's an up and up investigation to look into anything that's what the Justice Department is there for. But I think Victoria made the point that, you know, it is a little strange that you have the President's again, personal lawyer Mayor Giuliani going out there or saying he was going to go out there to fish for this information that would then potentially be a Justice Department investigation is what seemed so murky, so muddy, especially when you have a situation where we don't really know all the underlying details.</s>WHITFIELD: And then Victoria, you know, this Mueller report -- you've got ten attempted obstruction examples in that report. And now, you know, at the end of this two-year investigation, the White House requesting Don McGahn, you know, to state that there was no obstruction. He refuses, you know, by way of a statement coming from his representation. The House Judiciary Committee now wants to subpoena McGahn and if he doesn't show up then, you know, start the process of contempt. So what could potentially contempt look like for a former White House counsel Don McGahn who's now a private citizen working for a law firm?</s>BASSETTI: Right. It's not a pretty look. No lawyer, especially not a former White House counsel, wants to be cited for contempt of Congress. What it is, is the long slow walk to court while all of this gets litigated out, the executive privilege claims, the variety of kind of in many cases flimsy or shabby legal</s>WHITFIELD: All right. Victoria Bassetti and David Swerdlick -- we'll leave it there for now.</s>SWERDLICK: Thanks -- Fred.</s>WHITFIELD: Thanks so much.</s>BASSETTI: Thanks.</s>WHITFIELD: All right. Still ahead -- the impasse. As the U.S. and China walk away from trade talks without a deal, we'll talk about why that could end up costing you more money.