Interview With Senator Chuck Hagel
WOODRUFF: About an hour ago, former Republican Senator John Danforth was sworn in as the new U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. He replaces John Negroponte, who is the new U.S. ambassador to Iraq. When I spoke with John Danforth earlier today, I asked him about a recent article by former Clinton adviser Samuel Berger, who argues that, because of what he labels "gratuitous unilateralism," America has never had greater power, but it has rarely possessed so little influence.</s>DANFORTH: Well, I say exactly what President Bush said to me when he asked me to do this, which was the United Nations is very important, the war against terrorism cannot be won without the United Nations. It's very important to have the cooperation of the rest of the world. We have serious problems, really different from anything that we've ever faced before as a world, because it's no longer the threat of nations. It's the threat of people who are religiously motivated, groups of people, rogue states, people who have immense power to destroy us and are willing to take their own lives in doing that, who target civilian populations. All of this is a whole different world than what we knew just, say, 10 years ago. And therefore it's essential for the world to pull together to find common ground to deal with this terrible issue.</s>WOODRUFF: But what about the point that the U.S. has rarely possessed so little influence as it has today?</s>DANFORTH: I think that that's somebody else's conclusion. But obviously, when there's a different -- I mean, it's obvious to me, anyhow, that when there's an entirely different kind of problem that we're facing -- this is not the old Soviet Union, which was very powerful, but also was sane. This is different. Therefore, there's a lot of debate going on in the world. But I think the good news is that with the recent Security Council resolution relating to the future of Iraq, there is an indication that the world is beginning to pull itself together. And the goal going forward is to try to build on that and have the world move in one direction.</s>WOODRUFF: It is a new situation, Mr. Ambassador, but there are a number of Democrats and Republicans, including Senator Chuck Hagel, whom I know you know, who argues that the war in Iraq has made it even worse. He said, America has, by engaging in this war, terror cells have now been spread around the world, the terrorists have more targets, including American soldiers who are in Iraq. In other words, he's saying that the war has exacerbated the problem.</s>DANFORTH: Well, you know, we weren't at war with Iraq when planes were flown into the World Trade Center. We didn't ask for that, and yet we got it. So we have a situation in the world, and I don't know that you can say, well, somehow we brought it on ourselves. I really don't believe that. Clearly, there's a debate on how we deal with this situation. Clearly, there was a debate and is a debate on whether we should have gone into Iraq. But we did. And now the question isn't whether we should constantly rehash old issues, but: What happens next? Where do we go from here? And with the Security Council resolution of last month, with the commitment of NATO countries to train the new security forces in Iraq, there are signs that we are beginning to move forward, we are beginning to get our act together.</s>WOODRUFF: Do you think the U.S. should have gone into Iraq as it did, when it did?</s>DANFORTH: Personally, I do. I think that, given the noncompliance with previous U.N. resolutions, we were in a position where it was either do absolutely nothing and let Iraq simply, really thumb its nose at the United Nations and turn the United Nations into something that was just really passing resolutions and doing nothing about it, or whether somebody was going to try to enforce the rule of law. So that was my view.</s>WOODRUFF: Mr. Ambassador, finally a question about Sudan. You were appointed as a special envoy to Sudan in 2001. But since then, that country, of course, has continued to see killing, the displacement of many hundreds of thousands of refugees, especially in the western province of Darfur. You now have people at risk of dying who have been herded into refugee camps. The U.S. position right now is waiting for the U.N. Security Council to act on this. But in the meantime, the death toll climbs. Is this not genocide, Mr. Ambassador? And if so, doesn't the U.S. have a moral obligation to act right now?</s>DANFORTH: The U.S. has a moral obligation to act, and the U.S. is acting. And the U.S. has been very, very engaged in this tragedy in Sudan. As you know, Secretary Powell has been there. He's been to Khartoum, he's been out in Darfur, which is this terrible region. President Bush himself has spoken out on the tragedy in Darfur. President Bush has spoken with President Bashir of Sudan. I have raised the issue repeatedly. The United States has been instrumental three different times in briefing the Security Council on this. The United States has drafted a resolution to place before the Security Council on this. The United States is focused on Sudan. So is the United Nations. The secretary general also is in Sudan. The world must rivet its attention on Sudan, and especially on Darfur, if this problem is going to be resolved.</s>WOODRUFF: Is it genocide?</s>DANFORTH: Whether it's genocide or not is a legalistic question. But whatever you call it, it's a terrible, terrible situation. A lot of people have been killed. A lot of people have been abused. A lot of people have been displaced. And it has to come to an end.</s>WOODRUFF: My conversation earlier today with John Danforth, the new U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. Well, today's Iraq news is clearly dominated by Saddam Hussein's court appearance, but the violence continues. A roadside bomb killed two coalition troops, including a U.S. Marine. Other explosions killed six Iraqis, and insurgents damaged a power plant that supplies Baghdad with electricity. To talk about the challenges ahead in Iraq and more, I'm joined by Republican Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska. Senator, thank you for being with me. To talk about the challenges ahead in Iraq and more, I'm joined by Republican Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska. Senator, thank you for being with me. Let me turn quickly back to what I asked Ambassador Danforth about, and that is your contention that the war in Iraq has made the war on terror more difficult; it has spread terrorists around the world, given them more targets. I believe you heard his answer to that, he said, Well, we weren't seeking out an enemy when we were attacked on 9/11, when they came after the World Trade Center. How do you respond to that?</s>HAGEL: Well, first of all, the quote that you ascribed to me was part of a longer answer I gave to what have we learned from our one year involvement in Iraq. And I focused that answer on many dimensions, one including terrorism. So that's where that answer came from. But I also said that we are where we are, and we can't turn back. And we now must do everything we can to help the Iraqi people win their freedom and independence. As to your second question, Judy, I think we can continue to debate this for some time. And I think history will show a rather significant debate. But the fact is, we are where we are. And we're going to need the United Nations. I'm very pleased that this administration has seemingly moved in a new direction over the last few months, seeking the U.N. effort and involvement through that new U.N. resolution, seeking NATO involvement, seeking our allies involvement, a wider and deeper involvement of our friends and allies, because we cannot sustain -- the United States cannot sustain any policy anywhere without our allies. So I think the administration has started to understand that and is doing something about that.</s>WOODRUFF: So are you essentially saying the debate over whether the war was the right thing to do or not is behind us, an old issue, as Ambassador Danforth said, and not really worth discussing it much anymore?</s>HAGEL: Well you can always discuss it. And it's fun to talk about it. But that discussion is over. That debate is over, Judy. We are where we are. We have 141,000 American troops in Iraq. We have major consequences here at stake, not just for Iraq. But the Middle East, the Israeli-Palestinian issue, the future position and role of democracy in the world, so many big things are now wrapped up into our efforts in Iraq. And again, it brings us back to the legitimacy of internationalizing our effort as we are now doing.</s>WOODRUFF: Did seeing Saddam Hussein today before a judge in Baghdad make you feel any more -- that the war was any more worthwhile?</s>HAGEL: Well, the argument is not about was Saddam Hussein a guy who could have been somehow readjusted and recalibrated, and somehow redeemed into something he never would be. That was never the issue. The issue was how do you deal with him and under what circumstances and process? Of course, we're glad he's gone. I don't know of anybody who's not glad he's gone. That isn't the question. The question is, we now have him in custody. He is going to be tried, appropriately, in Iraq by the Iraqi people. And of course, Iraq is better off that he's gone.</s>WOODRUFF: Right.</s>HAGEL: But the other part of that is -- again, takes us back into the part of the old argument, how we did it. We weren't prepared for an occupation. We made a tremendous amount of mistakes. We did, essentially, go after this in a unilateral way. But the good news is, as far as I'm concerned, we've adjusted, we've shifted. And now we are understanding that it's going to take this international effort. But in the end, it's the Iraqi people, Judy. In the end, it will be the Iraqi people that determines Iraq's future.</s>WOODRUFF: Senator, Vice President Cheney said today that America is safer. He said the world is more secure because Iraq and Afghanistan have been liberated. Is he right?</s>HAGEL: Oh, I think it is too soon to make that determination. I would like to think it is. But we won't be able to determine that for a few more years. Why is that? Because we have dispersed, forced out terrorist cells all over the world. We have decentralized that by forcing ourselves into those areas with large force structure components. We are an easy target now for all those terrorist groups. Whether we've made the world safer or not, I don't know. I hope we have. I hope that we'll be able to sustain these policies that will acquire this internationalization and international effort. But that remains to be seen.</s>WOODRUFF: All right, we're going to leave it there. Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, it's always good to see you.</s>HAGEL: Thank you. Thanks, Judy.</s>WOODRUFF: Thanks very much. We appreciate it. And we are standing by for the president's remarks on the 40th anniversary of the Civil Rights Act. Mr. Bush is expected to speak at the top of the hour at the White House. We plan live coverage just minutes from now.