How Important Your Diploma Really Is; The Need for Travel Agents; The No Jerk Rule; Constructive Feedback at Work
ROMANS: OK where are you going this summer?</s>VELSHI: I am going to Russia.</s>ROMANS: Russia? I'm going to Colorado.</s>VELSHI: They are both out of town.</s>ROMANS: Did you book it myself?</s>VELSHI: I booked it myself but my mother's a travel agent. So I come from good travel agent stock that way and I totally know where I can do things myself and where I actually need to say, mom I need some help.</s>ROMANS: There are times when a travel agent is what you need for more complicated, more expensive trip where you have to cover all the bases, maybe going someplace that you have never been or you don't know a lot about, but if you are going to Chicago or Boston you should just book it yourself. Well Douglas Stallings is the senior editor of Fodor's Travel, joins us now to tell us about when to use a travel agent, when to do it yourself, and when to just stay home.</s>VELSHI: Yeah, but mom tells me because I will say hey I need a ticket to Boston, she'll say, do that yourself.</s>DOUGLAS STALLINGS, SENIOR EDITOR, FODOR'S TRAVEL: Absolutely. If you're just going to book a simple plane ticket or simple hotel reservation you don't need a travel agent to do that. You get a better deal and it's just easier to do it yourself.</s>ROMANS: If you are going to someplace like eastern Europe, or Croatia for example or Greece, a place you don't really know if I should take this train, I can stay at this hotel for two days, if you are going to take as ferry to go someplace else, you should get somebody who knows the deal to do it for you?</s>STALLINGS: I think to some degree that's true. I'm going to Greece this summer and I would have used a travel agent. My friend booked the trip for me so he use add travel agent. But Greece is one of those places where is a specialist can help you. There are places like Eastern Europe, parts of Asia.</s>ROMANS: Is it more expensive to do it that way? A lot more expensive?</s>STALLINGS: It is actually cheaper. Because Greece is locked up with the travel agent business you can save a lot of money on hotels and ferry tickets, and just being able to book things, if you use a travel agent, especially one based in Greece.</s>VELSHI: I enjoy these books; you have different kinds of guides for different kinds of people. In some ways, it helps them move towards doing things yourself, because you can read so much of it on your own, but you are hinting on something. Sometimes you're not paying more for the use of a travel agent. Sometimes they're getting you a better deal or they're getting you better information than you might have gotten on your own.</s>STALLINGS: I think that is true like with cruises, for example. Most cruises are booked through travel agents.</s>VELSHI: They pay commission.</s>STALLING: They do pay commissions and you don't get a better deal. Everybody gets the same deal, you get a better deal depending when you book your cruise but now how you book it. So you can book it through the cruise line or the travel agent you won't really save money. But the travel agent, if they are well connected, get you a better cabin, they can make sure that you take a ship that you want to be on, that you have the kind of cruise experience you want and if something goes wrong they're there to help you.</s>ROMANS: That's the thing. You don't want to be on a big party boat if you don't want to be on a big party boat or on a boat with seniors if you're looking for a party boat. They'll be able to do that.</s>STALLINGS: That and a resort vacation that is another good place to use a travel agent. You can save a lot of money booking a package trip to the Caribbean and most of those packages are sold through travel agents.</s>VELSHI: Now here is something interesting, we are talking about gas prices that are up near $3 a gallon average; in many parts of the country people are paying more than that. We just finished talking about the dollar, which is low against many currencies. A lot of good reasons for people to stay in the United States to travel this year, and I've seen a lot of offers from hotels and sort of packages that encourage people to stay around. Do you use those kinds of things to make your decisions where you travel, how far your dollar's going to go?</s>STALLINGS: To some degree, but for me I want to go where I want to go.</s>ROMANS: Right.</s>STALLINGS: If I want to go to Europe, and I think that travel patterns are supporting that, people will go to Europe if that's where they want to go and find ways to save money, and Asia, too.</s>ROMANS: If you want to play the dollar thing, I mean Asia's the place to go.</s>VELSHI: Benefited from a low Canadian dollar for such a long time. Now it doesn't get that benefit. You're right except I've been looking at these fares to Europe. They're kind of crazy. I think low fares for so many years, encourage people.</s>VELSHI: You never quite know. One of things that have evolved in the world of online do it yourself booking are these sites that compare fares or tell when you they're cheaper or somehow get you a cheaper fare. Fundamentally for the do-it-yourselfer, who's prepared to read these books, is that a way to go?</s>STALLINGS: Well I think that's one way to go. I mean, I think -- I think what's better, I feel overwhelmed with information when I use kayak or one of those aggravator sites. I like to go in to forums, on our Web site, other Web sites and get advice and information from people that really know the destination, go there a lot. That's actually more helpful to some degree that is where your travel agent can help. There are specialists in the region. But to get real advice from real people somehow feels better than a bunch of numbers and fare forecasts from some web site.</s>ROMANS: In terms of cheap fares you go to one of the you know, one of the Expedia, then what I do is then I find a good deal and go to the Web site of the actual airline because I want the miles.</s>STALLINGS: I used to do that and I like Orbit especially because they will show you all the taxes and fees ahead of time, most of the other web sites don't and I found deals there I haven't found elsewhere. Expedia and Travelocity have good packages and they are also travel agents that are why you're getting the good deal, because they do all the work behind the scenes to put everything together.</s>ROMANS: Do you get a chance to complain about airline fees, we will have you come back and talk about airline fees?</s>STALLINGS: We complain about those a lot.</s>ROMANS: Yeah. Not a comfortable weekend viewing.</s>VELSHI: Yes. Good to see you. Thank you for being here with us. Which one do you want Paris or London?</s>ROMANS: I will take Paris.</s>VELSHI: I'll take London.</s>ROMANS: Thanks.</s>VELSHI: All right. We are going to take a break, when we come back on IN THE MONEY, why getting rid of the jerks in your office could be good for business, might not entirely good for my future. Plus straight talk about what is effective when your giving feedback at work? Perhaps another segment I should pay attention to. We'll be right back.</s>ROMANS: The title of a new book by Robert Sutton includes a seven-letter word --</s>VELSHI: Which I taped over.</s>ROMANS: That management won't let us say on TV and we probably shouldn't say. We don't want to say it anyway.</s>VELSHI: Right as long as we don't want to say it while the TV's rolling, but the word starts with an a and ends with somebody wanting to put their fist through the wall.</s>ROMANS: It is causing a buzz; nonetheless, author Robert Sutton joins us. Welcome to the program.</s>VELSHI: It's "The No [ bleep ] Rule." We'll say no jerk rule.</s>ROMANS: We are going to say no jerk rule. ROBERT SUTTON, AUTHOR, " THE NO (BLEEP</s>ROMANS: So what is the no jerk rule Robert?</s>SUTTON: Well the no jerk rule is pretty simple. But my argument is, and I've got evidence, that some of the best organizations and leaders don't allow jerks in the door in the first place, and when they start acting that way consistently they try to stop them, maybe subject a little money from their pay and if absolutely worse, get rid of them.</s>ROMANS: No.</s>VELSHI: Robert, we talked earlier about this moment at M.I.T., the dean of admissions who had something on her resume that wasn't true. My resume doesn't say anywhere that I might or might not be a jerk. How would you know?</s>SUTTON: Well first of all there is this thing called reference checks and reputation. You can find out about that. The other thing that I really emphasize in the book is that jerks are, being a jerk is something you catch from other people. It's a disease. So if you go in to a jerk-filled culture where people are calling each other stupid, maybe throwing cigarettes at one another, nasty in other ways, you'll start acting like that too. To me, the most important part is it's a leadership and culture issue. Not just an individual characteristic.</s>ROMANS: Well sometimes-high performers in the office with that can come ego. With that, whether it's sales or television, whatever it's in, you know, you kind of become infallible when you're bringing in the money for the particular company.</s>SUTTON: Right.</s>ROMANS: The boss is trying to sideline the jerks. That can hurt the bottom line. Can't it? Or is there a way to get around that?</s>SUTTON: Well first of all that's one of those things that I dispute. If you actually go down the cost of jerks are incredibly high. There was one organization I worked with where they calculated the cost of their star jerk on things driving assistance out, driving good employees away, and it was $160,000 year. This guy was bringing in money but there were other costs, and many of those are well documented, but from my perspective with people like that, that's why the culture is so important. There is one company I work with called Success Factor, which is the largest growing software company, over $30 million, and they have people sign a contract saying they won't be a jerk, although they use the a-word, not the jerk word.</s>VELSHI: Lets remind people if you're going to buy this book and you put no jerks, the no jerk rule into Amazon, it's not going to come up.</s>SUTTON: Not going to come up. But the point is that the CEO of this company said, well you haven't signed the contract, and then you subtract money from their pay if they're bad and ultimately fire them. It's amazing how people that used to act like that in other places come around.</s>VELSHI: I tell you that is a massive human rights case waiting to happen. Here's the thing. We constantly read, maybe we in the industry are a little guilty of this, we are constantly reading articles about this fantastic lawyer, this fantastic analyst on Wall Street boy what a jerk, but everybody knew he or she was a jerk, but, boy, we they bringing in the bacon. We make excuses for it. You said it's about culture change. What is it? Just coming in, saying don't be a jerk or some other kind of leadership?</s>SUTTON: Well to me, there's two parts of this. One is dealing with the specific individual jerk. So back to the guy whose name is Ethan who cost them $160,000 one year. What they did was they subtracted $100,000 from his pay. That's something specifically, but from a leadership or management stand point to me it's a system, it is what you do when you hire, it is how you reward them and it is who you get rid of. One point, which I really dispute, is this notion that you need to be a jerk to be successful. There are plenty of people in business who are successful who aren't jerks. You can look at every place from Southwest Airlines, to I already mentioned Success Factors, and in your business I keep asking around. It's a little harder to find people nice in the entertainment industry or who are successful. But I keep hearing that Steven Spielberg and Danny Devito, who are both pretty successful, are actually reasonable human beings as well. So it is possible.</s>ROMANS: I found a guy on television, this guy named Ali Velshi he definitely is a -- I say --</s>VELSHI: Because you bring out the best in me. In all the years we've worked together, you're right, Robert. It is contagious. Christine is the ideal, kind, and good person. Is there something --</s>ROMANS: Oh stop. Tell me more, tell me more. Stop!</s>VELSHI: When you say jerk, it sounds like a blustery loudmouth irritating person. What about passive aggressive? People who don't confront anything?</s>SUTTON: So to me, in fact since I wrote the book I literally get hundreds of e-mails in the different ways in which people feel abused. One of the worst ways is people who treat others like they're absolutely invisible. So one legal secretary wrote me a story about how she works with a partner who walks by my desk 30 times a day never even looks me in the eye or acknowledges me as a human being. It isn't just being overtly nasty. It's backstabbing, the little glares. It isn't just the screaming insults.</s>ROMANS: And Robert finally if this is a leadership issue, you got to lead by example from the top down?</s>SUTTON: Yes. In fact, go back to my buddy Lars, who is CEO of Success Factor. The thing I love about Lars is he says he is a recovering jerk, and when he blows, if he apologizes and once even he sent out an e-mail to the entire company after losing his temper to a small group of people, because he wanted people to understand this was not acceptable.</s>ROMANS: Hmm. Nice. Robert Sutton, thank you so much. The "No -- blank -- Rule." But you can look up Robert Sutton, if you have to look it up online to try to get a book. Thanks so much for joining us. Speaking of bullies --</s>VELSHI: I hope I haven't been mean to me.</s>ROMANS: You've never been mean to me, that not that I can --</s>VELSHI: Don't think too hard about it. In case you get a brainstorm on that one.</s>ROMANS: A lot of people think that "American Idol" judge Simon Cowell is a nasty person a jerk to deal with. But having him, having a boss like him could be just what the doctor ordered for those of us trying to climb the corporate ladder at work.</s>VELSHI: Because he gives people feedback, he tells people what they need to know. Somebody else we get a lot of feed back from is Polly LaBarre she joins us with a look at what makes good feedback. What's good and negative? Good to see you, by the way.</s>ROMANS: How does "American Idol" fit into it?</s>POLLY LABARRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Here's a fresh twist on "American Idol" for those who think that "American Idol" is the death of television pop music and the culture itself. It's an unlikely source of insight about a big issue, how do you give good constructive feedback at work? I mean lets face it; there is such a dearth of honest, constructive criticism going on in the job.</s>ROMANS: Is it because managers are afraid to tell the truth? They afraid of H.R. or --</s>LABARRE: It is a couple things. Feedback has been basically relegated to this once annual ritual, which is so painful for all of us, which of course is the performance report.</s>ROMANS: One, two, three, exceeds me --</s>LABARRE: Exactly and it is usually based around this sort of a form. This piece of paper, which basically changes the conversation. So the tone goes from what could be a collegial informal conversation about --</s>VELSHI: I really like what you've been doing --</s>LABARRE: Right. It is more of a mentoring collegial conversation and turns it in to a formal painful ritual that has nothing to do with the way that work works today.</s>ROMANS: You shouldn't keep your feedback just for the annual review, right?</s>LABARRE: Exactly. So here's how Simon Cowell comes in, I mean I think he's refreshing and too nasty for words. He should take the -- we know what he'd score. The couple things to learn from "American Idol," so feedback are immediate, every week you get feedback. In so many organizations I think this idea that feedback is something that happens once or twice a year is the big problem. The best feedback is immediate, it's in context, part of a daily ritual, e-mail, memos, conversations in the hallways that you have at work as opposed to this ritual that happens once a year.</s>VELSHI: I've always taken the view when it comes to my job that feedback needs to be kept completely separate from compensation.</s>ROMANS: Ah.</s>VELSHI: They are two different things entirely. We have to decide whether what I'm doing is good and whether it needs to change or whether I need to grow and then we have to conversation about the money.</s>LABARRE: Yeah. So compensation should be a transactional, tangible conversation that's based on your market value, based on a lot of decision factors. Maybe skills you've acquired, accomplishments you've had during the year, but the conversation around performance should be, again, this daily, informal conversation that is collegial, it is about let me help you make you stronger, better, the best person you can be as opposed to how can we tie little things that you've done to pay? You're absolutely right. In this environment where we think of pay for performance, I don't think it's contradictory to say to keep them separate. I think that is a real important point.</s>ROMANS: Is the word constructive in here that is important.</s>VELSHI: It's on the screen! Yes. Constructive. You can't just tell somebody, that sucked.</s>LABARRE: Well constructive is kind of one of those wimpy words, a cover for negative feedback. Think about it, specificity I think is so important. Again, here's where "American Idol" comes in. We might stretch this a little bit but I've noticed in "American Idol." Stretch, right. This is the spin. So in the beginning days you have that bizarre world of all of this talent less people who come through and in odd outfits, they have no chance whatsoever. During those sessions Simon Cowell is so brutal. You're awful. You think you could be an "American Idol"? You must be deaf. Really crushing putdowns.</s>VELSHI: By the end of it he is saying, you didn't hit the high note properly.</s>LABARRE: Once the people are in the finals, and they have a chance and they actually do have talent, basically he's trying to do, in his own withering way, say, OK. Be more yourself. Pick a song that suits you better. Or your acting was off. This would never work in our industry. It's quite constructive in that sense, because it's specific.</s>ROMANS: Hmm. Polly LaBarre, that is fascinating. We should hope to get such constructive feedback from our boss.</s>LABARRE: Thanks.</s>VELSHI: We are going to take a commercial break and she is going to tell us how she though we did in that interview.</s>ROMANS: Thanks Polly.</s>VELSHI: Listen a small town solution to a growing problem. When we come back, we'll tell you how some people there found cash in trash, and later, stories that clicked on MONEY.com including Rupert Murdoch's play for Dow Jones. We'll be back with that and more.