Roger Stone Trial Tests Donald Trump/William Barr Relationship
PAUL: Well, according to a Justice Department Official, Attorney General Bill Barr felt vindicated after Former Trump Associate Roger Stone was sentenced to just over three years in prison. Of course, this was after more than 2,000 former prosecutors and other DOJ officials called on Barr to resign. And Barr overruled career federal prosecutors before that and their sentencing recommendation for Stone. So his discussions about the Stone pardon are buzzing through Washington, the question may be where will Bill Barr stand?</s>PAUL: With us now two CNN Legal Analysts, Elie Honig and Joan Biskupic. Thank you both so much for being with us. Elie I want to ask you let's get to that question what is the status Bill Barr?</s>ELIE HONIG, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: It's interesting, Christi, the relationship between Trump and Barr seems to be on the rocks. We saw Bill Barr really for the first time in his tenure as Attorney General step up and show some spine show some independence when he said in his interview with ABC News, the President needs to stop tweeting he is making my job impossible. What happens though in the days after that, the President keeps tweeting about cases keeps reasserting that he the President is in charge of Criminal Justice throughout the country which is not correct. So the President basically openly defied Bill Barr. What will Bill Barr do now? He threw down the gauntlet that President laughed about. And Bill Barr seemingly is just putting his head down absorbing all the abuse and going about his business and I think that's part of what makes him unfit to continue leading</s>DOJ. PAUL: And a lot of people are looking at the President seeming to insert himself into all of this. So Joan, I want to ask you what is the cost to the Justice Department to the Justice System, of the President shifting away from the judicial norms that they've always known?</s>JOAN BISKUPIC, SUPREME COURT BIOGRAPHER: Yes, Christi, I don't think we can overstate how different this is? We saw this week merely an escalation of what has been going on for the last three years where President Trump's challenge to judicial norms to legal norms has become the norm. Just think of what he did right after the sentencing of Roger Stone. He dangled a pardon which we knew it was in the air already. He talked about the scum, that's his word, and top FBI officials who've been there. He talked about dirty cops. He's constantly sort of undermining the structure of our constitutional system and democracy. So it's not just what he's signaling to the Justice Department, but to the broader justice system. And I think he's been emboldened by the Senate acquittal earlier this month. That's one thing. And it's showing up not just in the sentiment that we're hearing from career prosecutors and others at the Justice Department, but from the judiciary. Consider what Judge Amy Berman Jackson said as she sentenced Roger Stone. She has very veiled or maybe unveiled criticism of President Trump and others who would try to interfere with their prosecutions. Interfere with federal judges. And she said, you know, our adherence to the rule of law should transcend parties. This shouldn't be just about Republicans and Democrats and liberals and conservatives. There are more fundamental norms at issue here. So, I think that as much as we all, you know, have become accustomed to this during the past three years, people should really pay attention to the different tone and what is so different from other Presidents of the United States.</s>PAUL: And you know, Elie, there may be a lot of people who voted for President Trump who say this is what we wanted. We wanted him to shake things up. We wanted him to do things differently. Do you think that the judicial process at this point is forever changed? Or is there a chance the ship will right itself again, back to what is the norm?</s>HONIG: I think both our Judicial System, the Judge side of it, and the Department of Justice are strong enough that they will survive this. But Joan's right. This is an attack. This is a crossing of lines and a violation of norms. When I worked at the Justice Department, Joan is exactly right, it made no difference who was in the White House, really even who was even Attorney General to the day-to-day work that I did as a prosecutor. It was about doing the right thing. It was about doing justice. And Donald Trump just look at how he reacted to one case he didn't like, the Roger Stone case which touched on a close political associate. He attacked the FBI. He attacked his own Justice Department. He attacked the Judge on the case. He attacked a juror, a civilian, doing her most basic civic duty. So Donald Trump is trying to tear it down but he's not going to succeed long term.</s>PAUL: Joan, if the President has not or had not surrounded himself with as we say are loyalists to himself wouldn't there under normal circumstances be a repercussion for the President in trying to insert himself this way?</s>BISKUPIC: Well, we have seen it in the past, when you think of you know everyone is making comparisons back to the Richard Nixon Era in the '70s when there were some individuals around him who challenged him. Of course, we did see a partnership between Richard Nixon and his Attorney General John Mitchell. But there were people who stood up and after the whole Nixon/Watergate scandal, guard rails were put up at the Justice Department to stop the President, or presumably to stop the President from interfering in cases. You know, when we think back to that era, and how troubled the nation was, and how it seemed like so many reforms were in place, that all kind of looks like child's play today.</s>BISKUPIC: But I do think that when you hear these voices from individual judges and individual prosecutors, and people all over the country who are - who try to challenge him, I think it can make a difference. And I do agree with Elie that you know the system is stronger than one individual. But you know I cannot overstate enough the unusualness of the man who leads our country. Considers the perch he speaks from, consider the fact that he's a model, or presumably a model for all Americans. And he controls so many people in the ranks under him, he has much more of a voice than, you know, some radio talk show host. And that's what makes this so dangerous, I think.</s>PAUL: All right. Elie Honig and Joan Biskupic, we are so grateful to have you with us in the morning thank you.</s>BISKUPIC: Thanks.</s>HINIG: Thanks Christi.</s>ROD BLAGOJEVICH, FORMER ILLINOIS GOVERNOR: I am a political prisoner. I was put in prison for practicing politics.</s>BLACKWELL: CNN's Anderson Cooper was not going for that claim from Former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich. We'll hear more from their conversation, next.