Tip That Caused Polygamist Raid Possibly Bogus
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Tonight: The single biggest child protective bust in U.S. history all comes down after a secret cell phone call for help, 416 children, 139 women carted off by busload from a remote and isolated Texas compound. Courtrooms around San Angelo packed. Day two of stunning testimony reveals girls as young as 13 giving birth and a shocking number of teenage pregnancies. Evidence seized from a secret compound safe reveals underage girls routinely given over to much older men for systematic molestation. Tonight: While other jurisdictions turn a blind eye to the rampant child abuse behind the walls of these gated compounds, the state of Texas gears up and does legal battle.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Girls as young as 13 had gotten pregnant at the ranch and at least five who are younger than 18 are pregnant or have children. A child welfare worker testified that she uncovered a pattern of what she calls children having children at the compound. Also, a child psychiatrist said polygamous children like these are taught disobeying orders leads to eternal damnation and they have little opportunity to just make an independent choice. He said the sect`s belief system is abusive, its culture authoritarian. The judge must determine the fate of the 416 children taken from the polygamist compound after allegations of abuse.</s>LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight: The biggest child protective bust in U.S. history, the courtroom showdown over 416 children from a secluded Texas compound accused of forcing marriages and childbirths on girls as young as 13 years old. I want to go right to Susan Roesgen...</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The allegation is this has been an area, a ranch, a compound, if you will, where underage girls have had sex with much older men. There are a lot of child brides. Do you see that going on here at all?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do not. That is not the fact. No facts to that. And it does not, at this point, have anything to do with what we want, that our children come back to us.</s>LALAMA: And they call it heaven on earth. Is it? We shall find out. I`m going to go right to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent. Susan, first of all, a huge left turn today regarding some allegations of another suspect who may have started this whole thing. Go ahead and explain it.</s>SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, possibly some kind of suspect. What it is, a woman named Rosita Swinton in Colorado Springs may -- and I have to emphasize, may -- be the, quote, unquote "Sarah" that was supposed to have called from this ranch here in Texas. The Texas Rangers went out to Colorado Springs and they went looking for this woman. They searched her house. They found items that they say makes her a person of interest in this case, but they haven`t found her. So the question is, did some woman in Colorado Springs with some sort of connection to the Yearning For Zion ranch here in Eldorado, Texas -- did she call Child Protective Services here in Texas and claim that she was Sarah and that she was 16 years old and that she was pregnant by a 50-year- old man? We just don`t know. In any case, there are these allegations of multiple child sexual abuse charges that may or may not hinge on this Rosita Swinton.</s>LALAMA: Right. So let me just restate to people. It`s not that she`s a suspect. She is a person of interest. But I want to go right to defense attorney John Burris and ask -- to me, it seems it could turn the case on its head. Am I wrong?</s>JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, it is very troubling. I mean, if, in fact, it turns out that the whole thing was a ruse, if you will, by someone who really wanted to do something about it, and then you ultimately go into this place and get a search warrant, or not, you may have some real question about whether all of this can be suppressed as being illegally obtained.</s>LALAMA: All right. And we`ll go further on that subject in a minute. But I believe Flora Jessop, one of our guests, former polygamist and child bride, executive director of Child Protection Project -- Flora, are you not the person who actually spoke to this person of interest?</s>FLORA JESSOP, FORMER POLYGAMIST CHILD BRIDE: Yes. I started getting phone calls from someone claiming to be a little 16-year-old girl in Colorado City. She was not claiming to be from Texas. She claimed that she was the twin sister of a girl named Sarah that was on the Texas ranch, told me that she was her twin sister and living in Colorado City, that she was -- Colorado City, Arizona -- that she was supposed to be getting married in a month and moving to the Texas ranch. She didn`t want to be married, but she wanted to go to Texas to be with her sister, her twin sister. She told me that she was an identical twin sister, went into these elaborate stories about how the two of them used to trick their mother and their father and...</s>LALAMA: Then let me just interrupt you, Flora. The bottom line is that it looks to be that she could possibly be the woman that initiated this monstrous event that`s so sad, but you know, perhaps may end up being necessary. It could be her that started it all. And so I want to ask Susan Moss, family law attorney, does it not scare you that, for the sake of these children, who may, in fact, be, you know, abused, and these women -- could this throw the case out the window?</s>SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely not! This is not a criminal case, this is a Child Protective Services case...</s>LALAMA: But...</s>MOSS: ... and therefore the rules are different. No, unfortunately, the rules are different -- or fortunately, the rules are different. You see, the way it works is if there is a good faith basis for the allegations to be believed, if a reasonable person would have believed, having heard these allegations, that a subpoena should be issued and that they should go in and check on those kids for the "best interests of a" child analysis, then they are in the right and none of this is going to be thrown out. Very different standards in a criminal case. In a Child Protective Services case, where the analysis is the best interests of the child, they are well within their right if they had a reasonable belief to go into the ranch.</s>LALAMA: Well, let me ask you, Michael Board, reporter WOAI Newsradio in San Angelo, what was the buzz around the courtroom? I know you were there today. What was the buzz when this news came out that this was or could possibly have been initiated by a hoax?</s>MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Well, it`s something that we have been talking about all along is who this mystery Sarah person was before. We didn`t know who she was. We were told all along that CPS thought that they might have this quote, unquote "Sarah" person with the group of women that were taken off the ranch, these 416 kids. They felt confident they had Sarah. Now, you know, that throws a whole monkey wrench into that idea, that they thought they had several kids, thinking about, you know, they heard that there was a Sarah on the ranch and there was a Sarah who had a kid. That sort of throws a wrench in CPS`s story, anyways.</s>LALAMA: And it looks to me, Susan Roesgen, that there really isn`t a Sarah who has appeared thus far, correct?</s>ROESGEN: Well, you know, actually, Child Protective Services went on April 3 looking for this Sarah, looking for this one Sarah, and they wound up finding perhaps as many as five Sarahs, Pat, five different girls that they...</s>LALAMA: Right.</s>ROESGEN: ... were told could be pregnant and could be of that age group. So I think there is some truth to the fact that regardless of who tipped off the cops, whether the tip was legit or not, what they found does seem to be some allegations of serious child sexual abuse.</s>LALAMA: And John Lucich -- please forget me if I`m mispronouncing your name -- investigator and author of "Cyber Lies" -- you know, in terms of investigative this, could we argue, then, that because we`re talking about the protection of children, whether Sarah exists or not, there could be problems within this compound that are abusive to children and others, and they can go forward with this case, as you understand it?</s>JOHN LUCICH, AUTHOR, "CYBER LIES": Oh, absolutely. There`s no problem with the search warrant at all. There`s a doctrine known as the fruits of the poisonous tree. If a government agent was involved in this ruse, everything is tainted and it`s thrown out. However, if a government agent was not involved and this is strictly a ruse by a disinterested third party, then those cops had a legal right to be there. Everything they find can and will be used in a court of law. Absolutely.</s>LALAMA: All right. Excellent. Thank you for that. And let me ask you, Michael, again, Michael Board from WOAI Newsradio -- there were actually some women from the sect who took the stand today. Could you tell us a little bit about their testimony before the court?</s>BOARD: Well, they talked a little bit about saying that there was no abuse and the girls were free to marry whoever they want. You kind of got to say take that with a grain of salt, though, because all along, when we`ve talked to these women, they`ve been giving very programmed response. They`ve been sort of like Stepford wives, where they`ve only said what the leaders of this group have wanted them to say. So anything you</s>LALAMA: Well, you know, that brings me to Carolyn Jessop, former FLDS child bride and author of "Escape." You know, John Walsh (ph), who was on the stand today, who was another witness today on the stand for the FLDS, and he basically said, Hey, you know, these women are free to make their own decisions. Yes, he acknowledged that there were some very early marriages, young marriages, but they`re free to make that choice. Isn`t that just a little bit contradictory?</s>JESSOP: Oh, yes. I mean, women in this society are free to do what they`re told. I mean, you`re -- the prophet gets a revelation as to the man that you belong to, and you`re free to marry the man that you`re told to marry. No woman in this gets to pick their own husband. That is such a lie. That has not been the case for generations. So I don`t know where that`s coming from. The concept would be, yes, they`re free to do what they want, but that would be the fact -- that would be from the concept that you`re free to do what you`re told to by the prophet.</s>LALAMA: You`re free to do what you want, as long as we say it`s OK.</s>JESSOP: Right.</s>LALAMA: Something like that. Let`s take a caller. We have Karen in Nevada. Hello, Karen. What`s your question?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Pat. My question is, since these women aren`t cooperating and the children don`t know their biological origin, given that the welfare system has built this predators` paradise, can`t they check social security records to see what documents these women have filled out to claim these children? And also, as a part of that, now that the children have been removed, are they still sending them this money?</s>LALAMA: John Burris, would you like to tackle that one?</s>BURRIS: Well, I think that -- yes, you have to do whatever you can to try to figure out if -- the relationship between the children and the mother. I, for one, certainly think that unless you can show some personal abuse between the mother and the children, once they`re identified, then I think that the children are to go back to the mothers. I think it`s a very serious deal here to be trying to separate mothers from children, once you know who they are. That doesn`t mean that there aren`t criminal conduct, I think, that may be taking place there with these underage girls and guys, ones you can identify. That strikes me as criminal conduct. But once the baby is born, then you`ve got to figure out whether or not they should maintain this bonding relationship as it exists. So I think it`s a very difficult challenge we have here, that the court has to try to separate these mothers from these children, once they can identify who the children are. I don`t think it`s going to be that easy.</s>LALAMA: Susan Moss, family law attorney, you want to respond to that? I mean, there is this argument that, you know, it`s trauma either way. These children have not been on the so-called outside. Now they`re in foster care in families they`re not accustomed to. Is it worse there than it is inside the compound? How does anybody make the right decision in this case?</s>MOSS: There are credible allegations of rape, sexual abuse, physical abuse, underage marriage, polygamy. And those are just the allegations I can get out with one breath. I am so tired of watching these almost comatose women saying how they`ve been abused by not getting their children back. The reality is, if they had kept their children safe from rape, from physical abuse, from sexual abuse, they would have their children today!</s>LALAMA: Jim from Michigan. Hello, Jim. What`s your question?</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just wondering how a compound like this gets approval of a zoning board or passes zoning laws for land use to permit multi-family dwellings.</s>LALAMA: That`s a very good question. John Lucich -- and again, tell me if I`m mispronouncing that -- you know, is it not against the law to go build a compound and have a commune, or is it? I mean, are there certain licenses you have to get to maintain this kind of a facility?</s>LUCICH: Well, I`m sure there are, and that comes back to the state. And if the state allowed that, then shame on them. You can`t build anything anywhere without getting the government involved. They have to come in and inspect it and make sure that it`s livable and meets their standards for people so they don`t get hurt, whether it`s electrical or a building code. So there are clear standards. And that`s going to come back to haunt somebody at the state level, if permits were issued or weren`t issued and this was allowed to go on.</s>LALAMA: Well, Flora Jessop, let me ask you, since you`ve been there, do you get the feeling now, looking back, that the state just looks the other way and says, You guys do what you want to do and we`re going to stay out of it?</s>JESSOP: I think that that`s been the case in Utah and Arizona, but I think that they met their match in Texas. And I want to point out that the system absolutely worked in Texas. This child called a hotline purporting to be hurt. They turned the information over to the proper authorities. The proper authorities went to the compound to locate this child and check her welfare. Then when they couldn`t find her, they involved law enforcement, and law enforcement began an investigation to locate this child, and as a result of that investigation, have come up with a person of interest in Colorado Springs, this Miss Swinton. And so I would say that the system absolutely worked in this case. I would also point out that we have an entire set of tapes that were created by Warren Jeffs, the lead are of this FLDS cult, for the children, training tapes on the dynamics of how you`re supposed to be married, what you`re supposed to do when you get married, the dynamics of absolute submission to your husband. He is to tell you how to wear your hair, how to dress, how to cook the meals, how to clean the house. The only responsibility you have is to submit yourself to him completely and obey him in all things. And we will be turning those tapes over to the officials in Texas to further their court case in keeping these children safe.</s>LALAMA: You`re saying you have that information now and you`re going to turn it over to the authorities?</s>JESSOP: Yes, we do. I have an entire set of home economics class tapes which they use for their schooling.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you surprised to see this much attention from both the national media and others for the cause of your children?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love my children. I want to see them.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This young woman named Sarah who called in with the complaint, does she exist? Do you know who this is?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do not know who she is. I`ve never even heard of her in my entire life.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is all a lie.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know what she`s alleging, that her husband forced himself on her and beat her?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is not alive. There is no such a person.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do you think this came from, if it did not come from someone who lived at this compound?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone that has -- once lived here and been mad and turned against -- traitor.</s>LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Back out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent. How soon could we get a decision from the judge on this?</s>ROESGEN: Well, we`re hearing that it could happen even tonight. In that courtroom behind me, this custody hearing has just about wrapped up. Just a few minutes ago, the judge summarized all the arguments. Basically, Child Protective Services does not want these children, any of them, to go back to that ranch because they believe the mothers and fathers are coaching them in what to say and that the children are lying because they`re scared. The judge also said that the mothers want their cell phones returned. They may wear prairie dresses, Pat, but they`ve got their cell phones and they want to be able to talk to their children by cell phones. Now, the judge, again, has just wrapped. She`s just taken a recess. And this is her exact quote. I`ve got it on my Blackberry here. She says, "This is the hardest, toughest decision a judge has to make any day." So we may have a decision in the next 20 minutes or so, maybe even before your show is off tonight, Pat.</s>LALAMA: Unbelievable. Joni Holm, Safety Net, foster parent to children of polygamy, bless you for what you do. What kind of a traumatic situation must this be for children who obviously have ties to their parents, their biological parents, however many there may be, so to speak, and being put in these, you know, awkward situations, families they`re not familiar with? Do I have Joni? OK, maybe not. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist.</s>LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. Hi.</s>LALAMA: What about that?</s>AUSTIN: This is incredibly traumatic for these kids. I have no doubt that they should have been removed, but I really hope that the state will treat them very gently. And number one, remember that many of these mothers are victims, too. It doesn`t make it OK, what happened to these kids, but they all really need to be treated gently and slowly in order to gain trust so that you can present alternative world views to them so they can understand that what they`re doing is not healthy, it`s not good, it`s not safe. But you`ve got to go very slowly with them, the mothers, as well as the kids. And I think they have to be very careful about communications with the mothers and children. But they should not be trashing the parents to the kids at this point. It`s way too soon.</s>LALAMA: Dr. Marty Makary, physician, professor of public health at Johns Hopkins, what kind of trauma? What are the possibilities? What`s happening to these children? I can`t imagine what`s going through their little heads right now.</s>DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, Pat, they are at risk for vaccine-preventable diseases, a lifelong of post-traumatic stress disorder and also a host of obstetrical complications. Twelve and thirteen-year-old girls were not designed to be pregnant. They can`t deliver a baby easily. Their pelvis is not big enough. They often need C-sections, and I doubt they`re doing C-sections at the Latter Day Saints compound.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was day two of the custody hearing involving that polygamist ranch in Texas, and already prosecutors feel like they`ve done enough. The state has rested its case. Just to backtrack for you, here`s what`s at stake: whether or not 416 kids will be sent back to the ranch or head to foster care.</s>LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. My understanding is that there have been DNA tests done on the children, some of the children, before they had representation. John Burris, is there a problem with that?</s>BURRIS: I don`t think there`s a problem in doing DNA in a situation where at issue is, Who is the parent? This is a very complex situation where you`re really trying to determine what`s in the best interest of the kids. You need to know who their parents are, and this is the first step in doing so in terms of DNA. I don`t think there`s a legal barrier to prevent that because you are talking about what`s in the best interest of the child. It`s not really a criminal milieu right now, and there`s no laws that prevent this from happening as you try to identify what to do with these children.</s>LALAMA: Joni Holm, I think I have you. Safety Net, foster parent to children of polygamy. Again, bless you for what you do. How startling must it be for these children to be moved from one situation to another like this?</s>JONI HOLM, FOSTER PARENT TO CHILDREN OF POLYGAMY: Well, you know, you have to realize that these kids have been taught their whole life not to trust the outside. Already, I know that the CPS down there in Texas isn`t quite understanding that. You know, the pictures that are coming out, they have boys laying next to girls, and that is not acceptable. My concern is when they place them into these homes, how adequately trained are these foster homes going to be? You have to train them because there`s things that these kids -- that these parents do not understand.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They claim that they are -- that women here are forced to marry at ages of 16 and under. Does that happen here?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: We just want our children back.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: It`s not true.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: That`s not true? It does not happen?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: No one is forced to do anything here.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How old were you when you married?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: 21.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And you? And how old are you now?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: I`m 32.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: 31.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is there any time where a woman 16 years or younger is married out here?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: We just want our children back. We`re not here to talk about ourselves. We just want the children back.</s>LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace. And I want to go to Flora Jessop. You were part of a polygamous family. And a lot of people hear the voices of those women, they say oh, my gosh Stepford wives, they`re brainwashed. They don`t think for themselves. But the experts say it`s not really brainwashing, you have to physically retained, confined. Did you feel -- I mean looking back, were you brainwashed? Could you -- were you sitting in those compounds ever saying I`ve got to get out of here, there`s something wrong here? Give us some insight to what you were thinking.</s>FLORA JESSOP, FMR. POLYGAMIST & CHILD BRIDE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF CHILD PROTECTION PROJECT: Absolutely, absolutely, we were brainwashed. We were brainwashed in the belief that if we left we were damned to hell. We were told we had a choice and yet on the tops of the walls and the fences in Colorado City, if you notice, the razor wire doesn`t point out like in most -- on most compounds. It points in. And -- as a way of keeping people in, not keeping people out.</s>LALAMA: But, Flora, did you know something was wrong? Or were you just -- you know how you hear women say it`s the sweet life, it`s Zion, it`s fabulous, it`s great. Were you really believing that at one time yourself?</s>F. JESSOP: You know, of course, I was. I was born into it. And when you -- raise someone as a calf in a stall -- and that`s the best way to describe how these women are raised -- you raise a calf in a stall, the only thing they know is the four walls of that stall. Even if you let the walls of that stall down, that calf will stand there because it`s afraid to move. That`s exactly what these women are going through. I`d also like to.</s>LALAMA: And now before.</s>F. JESSOP: .point out just one thing.</s>LALAMA: Go ahead.</s>F. JESSOP: .about the dresses that I think is important. And if you notice the colors of the dresses and the -- they`re all wearing these pastel different color dresses. These women are taught that they are the jewels in the crown of their husband, they -- that their husband is to become a king and a god in the afterlife. They are the jewels in his crown. And so they dress them in these jewel colors.</s>LALAMA: OK, you know what, I want to hear more about this, but I have to tell you, we have a new piece of information. Susan Roesgen, we understand that the court has made a determination about the children. Please tell us.</s>SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, part of her ruling -- Pat, Judge Barbara Walther has come back now and she says that she has heard sufficient evidence for the court to keep the children. Now we`re waiting to see how she might qualify that. We believe it means all the children, although the attorneys had argued that any child under 4 -- and there are 130 children of that 400 plus, 130, Pat, who are 4 years old and younger, and their attorneys had argued surely they`re not any risk of having imminent child sexual abuse. Let them go back. The latest we`ve heard, just -- again checking my BlackBerry here, is that her initial ruling is that the court will keep the children. But we`re going to wait and see whether that really means all of them -- Pat?</s>LALAMA: You know, Flora Jessop, let me ask you, what`s your response to that, your reaction to that ruling?</s>F. JESSOP: Oh, I`m so pleased with that ruling. It`s -- my hat is off to Texas. God bless Texas for doing the right thing, for finally protecting.</s>LALAMA: And Carolyn Jessop, your reaction?</s>CAROLYN JESSOP, FMR. WIFE OF YFZ LEADER MERRILL JESSOP: I am so relieved. I have just been literally on pins and needles all day. I mean, this is such a relief that Texas is going to do the right thing and protect these children. They deserve protection.</s>LALAMA: Susan Moss, I have a feeling you`re going to swing that way as well.</s>SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. That`s why I`m wearing my Texas pin today. I`m just so thankful that Texas had the courage to stand up and do the right thing. There are going to be a lot of critics that say they overstepped their bounds, but they had the guts to come forward and protect children.</s>LALAMA: Dr. Marty Makary, what`s important now for those children? How do we make sure -- I mean they`re all going to be spread out, put in places they`re not accustomed to with life styles and cultures they`re not accustomed to. How do we keep them safe in this other environment until this all get sorted out?</s>DR. MARTY MAKARY, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, the most important thing is for them to build a community among themselves. They have a shared set of emotions that, quite honestly, modern medicine has yet to truly understand. I mean, this is beyond Gulf War syndrome. And they need good care. They`ve got 25 mental health counselors there already. They`ve got 14 physicians, 10 nurses. And they`re pouring in the public health people to try to help them out.</s>LALAMA: Now, let me also tell you I`ve just learned that there will be paternity testing for the children and, John Burris, that could be problematic. That could be messy. What`s that going to be like?</s>JOHN BURRIS, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, I think you have to do it. I mean -- you know, I think the first thing here is trying to figure out who the kids are, who their parents are, and to the extent now that the kids are a ward of the court, then the court has some authority now to seek out and identify who the parents are. And I think that they have to do that. I don`t see that as a legal impediment at all because the state is the one that`s going to have to take care of these children. Fathers have responsibilities, parents have a responsibility to contribute to that process. So as a consequence of that, the court -- the state has a right to figure out who those parents are. And so I don`t see that as a problem.</s>LALAMA: And just to clarify, it`s maternity and paternity, which, of course, you probably knew that. Joni Holm, you may be someone who could end up with these children ultimately or people that you know. What do you say to those little ones when you`re they`re in your care?</s>JONI HOLM, SAFETY NET, FOSTER PARENT TO CHILDREN OF POLYGAMY: The first thing I do is validate how they`re feeling. You cannot go in there and take away what they`ve known their whole life. You have to work backwards with them. And then work forward again. My concern is that what are they going to do now to place them? As far as I know, Texas right now is not planning on placing them in kinship. And they need to start considering kinship placement. If they place them in homes that are not aware of the situation or how these guys were -- children were raised, they`re going to set them up to fail. For instance, if they put them in homes that are not of Caucasian, they`re going to have problems. These people are very racist people. These children will not react in a good manner in homes that are not of Caucasian.</s>LALAMA: Very interesting. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, what could be the fallout from this? You know, it`s -- you know, from fire to ice, right?</s>LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It sure is. And I really feel for those kids. I couldn`t agree more with what was just said. You really just need to validate their feelings and make them feel safe with you almost in a waiting period until you can build some trust. And I don`t mean this in a demeaning way at all. We would do it with our pets. It`s so much more important to do it with children. Just make them safe until they trust you and then very gently start to reeducate them and reintroduce them into the wider world slowly, carefully, gently.</s>LALAMA: Mary-Louise, you`ve been waiting a long time in Maryland and I thank you for that. What is your question?</s>MARY-LOUISE, MARYLAND RESIDENT: I went to a girls home called New Bethany. And when we left there, we had to do a lot of counseling. Are these kids getting counseling?</s>LALAMA: Well, I`m sure they`re -- well, that`s a very good question. Dr. Marty Makary, do you think that they will get psychological counseling outside of their foster homes? Who takes care of that?</s>MAKARY: They have this public health team on-site meeting with the children, although, you know, it`s hard to believe the state does anything as well as any sort of private insurance will. And they are going to get essentially state-level counseling. So it`s going to be dependent on private volunteers who come out and do this out of their heart rather than people that are assigned to this against their will.</s>LALAMA: Carolyn Jessop, you know, we don`t talk a lot about the fact that young boys, adolescents, little boys, teenagers are also victimized in this situation. We leave them out a lot. Can you explain how bad it can be for those children as well?</s>C. JESSOP: Well, they`re victimized in a different way, but it`s also very bad. They`re taught to disrespect women. My sons were never allowed to respect me and cherish me as a mother. And they did have to have professional help with that, to learn how to cherish and value their mother and value a woman and how -- and that sets them up to fail later if they end up in normal society. These boys have a horrible time in relationships, maintaining a good relationship -- with a -- you know, healthy woman, and very often they attract unhealthy women because they`re abusive. And so it`s just a -- it`s a vicious cycle. And.</s>LALAMA: Michael Board, reporter for WOAI Newsradio, very quickly, what happens next? Formal hearings? What`s the next step legally now that judge made her decision?</s>MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Well, this is the temporary custody hearing. Now we go on to permanent custody hearings and we figure out what to do with these kids long term and also, what`s more interesting, is the criminal trial against the FLDS. Will criminal charges be pressed? If they don`t have a Sarah how will that affect these criminal -- charges?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: We are just pretty normal. We`re just normal people. We go to school. We teach the children to be clean and we`re just normal. We don`t have TV. We don`t.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Really?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: Yes.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: I have a college degree.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: We don`t sit and watch the TV and we don`t eat junk food.</s>LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace. Right back to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent. Let`s go over those developments that happened just in the last few minutes.</s>ROESGEN: Yes, you bet. I can see behind me now some of the women who are leaving here. They`re dejected. The mothers have left -- you had more than 400 children in this case and more than 300 volunteer lawyers who are dejected tonight as well because the judge has ruled against them in their bid to get custody back of these children. The judge has just ruled that the court will retain temporary custody of the children and she has also ruled that they`re going to set up a mobile testing lab outside the coliseum where many of the children are right now for maternity and paternity tests. I`ve got to tell you, Pat, that in the testimony today many of the lawyers stepped up to say they didn`t even know who the parents were of the children because they all have similar last names. They all have similar first names. And many of the lawyers themselves didn`t know who the parents were. So this</s>DNA. LALAMA: You know, Susan.</s>ROESGEN: ...testing is absolutely essential.</s>LALAMA: Yes, sorry for interrupting. You make such a good point there. I was just going to ask Flora, you know, Flora, these -- they change names? They have same last names? Nobody knows who`s related to who? Forgive me for sounding harsh here. But how in the world are they going to get all this DNA figured out?</s>F. JESSOP: You know, that`s a really good question, because in polygamy, we don`t have family trees. We have a family wreath. Everybody in this group is related to each other. So it`s going to be interesting for me to watch the DNA testing just because I think 98 percent of the population will be able to say I`m the mother, I`m the father, because the incest in this group is so rampant. And it`s going to be fairly complex to distinguish who`s the parents and who`s not.</s>LALAMA: Susan Moss, how about you on that question? I mean, the state is going to have just a heck of a time, aren`t they?</s>MOSS: Well, they are. But think about it this way. And in this argument, it actually might help the state prove their case. If you have a single family and there`s one child who`s been abused, all the children are taken away. If the state can make a legal argument that everyone involved, all of these children are part of one family, if they can prove just a few allegations of abuse, then everyone is going to have to be taken away. And this religious cult is helping them make that argument because no one knows who the parents are, no one knows who`s their children, and no one knows their ages.</s>LALAMA: And -- don`t forget they don`t tell the truth, too. They are all afraid they`re going to be damned to hell if they tell the truth. Gene from Florida, what`s your question, Gene. Do I have Gene? OK, how about Lori in Illinois? Lori in Illinois?</s>LORIE, ILLINOIS RESIDENT: Yes. Hello.</s>LALAMA: Hi.</s>LORIE: My question is, I`d like to know if these women can be charged with co-conspiracy for pedophiles. That`s what.</s>LALAMA: John Burris. Yes, I -- go ahead.</s>BURRIS: I think you can. Certainly if you can determine who the father -- if you can identify men -- women who, in fact, have been sexually molested below the age of, say, 14 or 16, and a mother participated in facilitating that process and you identify who the guy is, I think you can. That`s part of the overall problem you`ve got here is that you have this ability of various people and co-conspirator relationship based upon the philosophy of the whole overall cult, if you will. And so if you can identify through all that, you possibly can. I don`t see all of that happening per se. I see much more of the men, those who had sex with women below the ages, had babies by them. I can see the court really being highly focused on those individuals.</s>LALAMA: Yes, you know, I mean, over the years whether you`re in a polygamist compound or not, women have looked the other way in, you know, these kinds of situations where they`ve known child abuse to be occurring. So I don`t know how that will play. But I want to ask Carolyn Jessop, why don`t we hear the men out there in front of the courthouse saying our wives are just fine and we treat our women well? I mean why is it all these soft-spoken women, you know, talking about the sweet life on the compound?</s>C. JESSOP: That`s my question exactly. I mean, my ex-husband, Merrill Jessop, who is at the center of this whole conflict, he has, I believe, eight children that they`ve taken. And why isn`t he speaking out? But yet he`s got several of his wives out there crying and pleading for them back. And part of it, I think, is it`s just a PR campaign and they`re using the women. They`re afraid that if they speak out, that society will see them as perpetrators and there will be no sympathy. But then they see the women who look -- you know, it`s obvious that they`ve been victimized and they`re being victimized again and society is very, you know, very sympathetic and then they give the children back.</s>LALAMA: Susan Moss, let me ask you this. Does that mean -- could arrests of the men be imminent? What might we expect in the future in terms of criminal charges?</s>MOSS: I think what`s going to happen now is that the state is going to use all the power with regard to this custody case to garner as much information and as much evidence as they possibly can. Once they have a clear group of evidence that they can use, then they`ll start making decisions on who to charge. And that -- I think it`s going to be many, many people, not only men, but also the women.</s>LALAMA: John Burris, very quickly, agree or you disagree with that?</s>BURRIS: I agree to certainly the men are going to get prosecuted once you get through this DNA process. I think that`s the most important thing they have to do right now for both the men and the women. But once that occurs, I think the men are clearly going to be -- a couple of testimony about how things have occurred over there, so.</s>LALAMA: Thanks, John. Tonight, "CNN HEROES."</s>MARIA RUIZ, CHAMPIONING CHILDREN: I was born and raised in El Paso. El Paso and Jaurez, Mexico, they are known as the twin cities. But you cross over the border into Juarez, you notice the difference. In 1996, I came to the outskirts of Jaurez. When I saw the poverty level that they were living in, with no water, no electricity, my world changed completely. I`m Maria Ruiz and I cross the border to help people in Jaurez. I decided to start the food program. I cooked and I cooked every day. And then I brought it over here. I fed approximately 1,200 kids on a daily basis for 3 1/2 years. Now we collect the donations, we take furniture, food, toys, almost about anything. We`re ready to go. Crossing the border involves a lot of work and time. Do you have any food items? I have crossed, oh, thousands of times. We give out whatever we have. Buenos Diaz. It`s like a distribution center. Gracias. (Speaking in foreign language). Gracias. All of the work we do is part of the Families Ministry. It`s a team effort, but regardless of whether they are Christian, it`s equal for everybody. The kids are the ones that keep me going, but I don`t consider myself a hero. I know I can do much more.</s>LALAMA: And now a look back on the stories making the rest of the headlines this week.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: No force here. Everyone has their choice to do exactly what they like. There is no force. And we want our children and they want us.</s>NANCY GRACE, HOST: Are they choosing polygamy and the husbands, they all share with each other over their own children?</s>BOARD: They`ve been brainwashed. There`s a huge degree of just mental -- they`ve been working on these women mentally to try to conform them to their way of life.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A newly released 911 call and a vicious attack allegedly by six Florida high school girls on a classmate and cheerleader.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She got blood in her mouth and she got a big ole` knot on her left eye. And we think that she`s got a tooth broke.</s>GRACE: That girl victim still suffering from loss of hearing as well as loss of sight. Tumble dry takes on a whole new meaning. A Missouri mom and her live-in lock her two little children in the family clothes dryer and turn it on. Well, maybe the perps will get their own laundry duty behind bars. Good lord. Sheriff, have you ever seen anything like it?</s>SHERIFF JOHN W. PAGE, CAMDEN COUNTY SHERRIF`S OFFICE: No, I have not. I mean, this is pretty bizarre as far as a, I don`t know, form of punishment.</s>GRACE: Here`s the video.</s>JOHN KINNEY, MANGER, LEV`S PAWN SHOP: Yes.</s>GRACE: She`s coughing and gagging. This is video of an 18-month-old baby girl allegedly smoking pot. Gee, I`d like to find out where mommy and daddy are, because I know where they should be. They should be behind bars having a little Jell-O for dessert tonight.</s>LALAMA: Tonight, let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Benjamin Portell, 27, Bakersfield, California, killed in Iraq, on a second tour of duty. He lost his life saving another soldier. Had tender heart, loved God, country and mission trips to Mexico with his church. His motto, living the dream so others may live their life to the fullest. He leaves behind parents Matt and Susan, brothers Mike and Jeff, who also served in Iraq. Benjamin Portell, an American hero. Thank you to all of our guests and to you at home for being with us. See you tomorrow night. That`s at 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. Until then, have a great evening. Good night. END