Is Church Policy on Abusive Priests Strict Enough?
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Still to come, trucking through Florida with Janet Reno, if you can even imagine that. And Queen Elizabeth rides in a carriage that won't turn into a pumpkin. Right now, though, we're stepping into the pulpit. Today we got our first look at the U.S. Catholic bishop's response to the scandal of priests who molest children. Despite calls for a zero tolerance policy or a one-strike-and-you're-out policy, an ad hoc committee is recommending something different. In the future men who abuse one or more children will be removed from the priesthood and reported to authorities. That also goes for priests who abused more than one child in the past. The priests who have been caught molesting only one child might be allowed to stay. They have to have a clean record since the incident, have not been diagnosed as a pedophile, and be approved by a review board. Will the new rules satisfy the faithful, and who's willing to bet their child that a priest with one strike won't do it again? Joining us to answer those questions from New York City is Bill Donohue of the Catholic League.</s>BILL DONOHUE, THE CATHOLIC LEAGUE: How are you doing?</s>BEGALA: Bill, thank you for joining us very much, sir. Let me read to you from what our bishops released today. This is the new standard for past acts of child sexual abuse. And according to the bishop's document, regarding acts of sexual abuse of a minor committed prior to this date. If the cleric is a pedophile or if he has committed more than one act of sexual abuse on a minor, there will be a request from the cleric</s>DONOHUE: Well, as a matter of fact, they're not. A pedophile is somebody who rapes somebody.</s>DONOHUE: No, no, that's not what they're saying. What they're saying is this. If, in fact, from now on out, if you're involved in sexual assault, you're gone. If you've had multiple cases in the past, you're gone. If you were involved...</s>DONOHUE: ... wait a minute -- if you were involved with a child and you've not been diagnosed as a pedophile, then it will be up to a lay review board. In other words, what they're saying is this, fellows. Let's tease it out. If you've got a priest today who's a senior citizen and who a generation ago was guilty of fondling, bad as that is, you may go out if you were -- if you're diagnosed as a pedophile you're automatically out. It is, in fact, zero tolerance for pedophiles past, present and future.</s>CARLSON: Well wait a second Bill. Let me -- if I'm in a drunk driving accident, I don't need a diagnosis of drunk driving to be a drunk driver, do I? So I guess if I rape a child, I don't need a shrink to tell me I'm a pedophile. I am, by definition, correct?</s>DONOHUE: But of course. That's what -- that's what they're saying. If you've been diagnosed as a pedophile...</s>CARLSON: ... unless you've been diagnosed...</s>CARLSON: ... is you're not really a pedophile.</s>DONOHUE: There's a bit of a sting going on in the media on this. Look, I've been highly critical of the way the church has handled this in the past. But the fact of the matter is what they're saying is this: If you were guilty of one infraction in the past, like rape, you're gone because you're obviously a pedophile. What they're saying is that if you've not been diagnosed as a pedophile, but you have been involved in some kind of untoward condition, such as fondling or groping, then it'll go up to the lay review board, and you may still be out. That's a giant leap forward.</s>BEGALA: Bill, I got four young kids and I am raising them in the Catholic Church. Tell me, why should I turn them over to a priest that ever once fondled or groped a child?</s>DONOHUE: Well, let me tell you something, if the person hasn't been diagnosed as a pedophile and, in fact, there are no outstanding crimes against them, either in the civil courts or in the criminal courts, and in fact if they're going to make public disclosure, it's a hell of a lot better than what you'd get at Harvard University, where next year if a girl is raped, she has to have an eyewitness.</s>BEGALA: But don't you think that the holy mother church, which I love and you love, should have a higher standard than a secular college?</s>DONOHUE: No, look, what they're saying is there's going to be some diocesan autonomy in the draft. Now, they may change it. They may come -- they may raise the bar again, but what you haven't addressed is they're going to break the institutional code of secrecy, namely no more of these confidentiality agreements between lawyers, no more of this business of a guy like Shanley being shipped off to New York City or San Bernardino, and we don't know what his record is. This guy's record, his personnel records will travel with them wherever he goes. In other words, they're going to be looking in the window at these guys, finally.</s>CARLSON: Well I -- you know I -- all of this, and everyone, of course, is glad the church is taking steps to make it better, but the church doesn't appear to be taking steps to understand how it happened in the first place. There have been no church-authorized studies into what about the culture of Catholic clergy has given rise to so many incidents of child abuse. Don't you think the church ought to get on that, and maybe figure out why?</s>DONOHUE: Yes, I think they will. And they have an office of child abuse that's going to be set up and institutionalized. But remember, we've had 220 priests since the beginning of this year who've had to step down because of some charges. That's less than one-half of 1 percent. I think one case is too many. But take a look at the general population, 8 percent. Take a look at elementary...</s>CARLSON: Wait a second...</s>DONOHUE: ... and secondary school children: 15 percent claim that they have been sexually aroused -- or abused by their teachers.</s>CARLSON: ... wait a second -- no, no. But Mr. Donohue, I mean there are estimates, you've seen them that anywhere from 30 to 60 percent of all Catholic priests are homosexual. I don't know if those are true or not. But clearly the incidence of homosexuality is far higher in the Catholic Church. Don't you think it's at least worth asking the question why?</s>DONOHUE: Well let me tell you something. This may surprise somebody because I'm a conservative. I don't believe that because you're gay you're going to necessarily act out. Now maybe you do.</s>CARLSON: I don't, but I think it's...</s>CARLSON: ... interesting -- it's an interesting incidence.</s>DONOHUE: Yes, but you talk about the culture. I don't think there's anything peculiar to the Catholic Church's culture that allows for the numbers that they have. In fact, there are about the same percentage in the denominations of other religions, and it's less than in the general population. Now, there is a problem because I think we should hold Catholic priests to a higher standard. But let's get real in terms of this where it's coming from in the culture. Maybe you want to turn the channel and look at</s>MTV. BEGALA: Well Bill, I want to also go -- hold our bishops to a higher standard.</s>DONOHUE: Yes.</s>BEGALA: What should the punishment be for a bishop who aids and abets the rape of a child by shifting these predators around from parish and parish?</s>DONOHUE: He should be thrown out, all right, flat out...</s>BEGALA: Cardinal Law -- Cardinal Law...</s>BEGALA: ... let's name names.</s>DONOHUE: That is -- that is the most abusive element to the whole thing, the most unconscionable element of the whole thing, of playing musical chairs with these people. But I think -- now that you're going to have the reporting procedures, I can't imagine -- I mean somebody's going to have to be almost drunk not to understand that the public is fed up with this.</s>BEGALA: But how can we look for moral authority to Cardinal Law, Cardinal Egan or any other bishop, who anywhere in America or the world sent predators, knowingly -- knowingly -- sent predators into our communities?</s>DONOHUE: Well I think what they're trying to do in this document is to focus on the kids and what can be done at this point. I do expect that some people who could stay on technically for another four years may not.</s>BEGALA: Bill Donohue from the Catholic League, one of the great defenders of the faith, thank you very much for joining us, friend. Appreciate it. Next in our CROSSFIRE "News Alert," don't worry about India and Pakistan anymore, Al Sharpton's on the case. And our "Quote of the Day" is an attack from a right wing heavyweight that got a surprising response from the president himself.