George Zimmerman Trial; Associate Medical Examiner on the Stand
DON WEST, ZIMMERMAN'S DEFENSE LAWYER: -- that's your frame of reference, then?</s>SHIPING BAO, ASSOCIATE MEDICAL EXAMINER: Yes.</s>WEST: That other case where there's some evidence that the person was alive longer than your first opinion of one to three minutes?</s>BAO: Yes.</s>WEST: Would you agree the range could be quite different?</s>BAO: Yes.</s>WEST: Depending on the circumstances?</s>BAO: Yes.</s>WEST: And you couldn't really say that in every case where someone was shot in the heart they would survive 10 minutes?</s>BAO: No. This -- that's why I say one to 10 minutes. I did not say about 10 minutes or 10 minutes. I say one to 10 minutes. I give myself plenty of margin of error.</s>WEST: So that's really 10 times, isn't it?</s>BAO: Yes.</s>WEST: Ten times, one to 10 minutes is a huge --</s>BAO: Yes. Let me tell you --</s>WEST: Is that as accurate as you can be?</s>BAO: Yes.</s>WEST: OK. Let's then talk about something else you said in connection with that, if I heard what you said earlier in direct, that you said that immediately following the shot, Trayvon Martin would not be able to move. Did you say that?</s>BAO: Yes, I did.</s>WEST: Is that your opinion? That based upon the shot to Mr. Martin's heart that immediately upon sustaining it, he would not have been able to move?</s>BAO: And also I gained the experience --</s>WEST: If you would just answer the question first. Is that your testimony that -- that immediately upon receiving the injury to his heart and lung, that Trayvon Martin would not have been able to move?</s>BAO: Yes.</s>WEST: And are you also saying that he would not be able to talk?</s>BAO: Yes, I did say that. I would --</s>WEST: That he would have no voluntary control of his muscles whatsoever?</s>BAO:  I --  WEST: Is that what you're saying?</s>BAO: I have no idea about that. I -- I do think they can move a little bit. They can make some very painful noise. That's what I learned from the case three weeks ago.</s>WEST: But you didn't do the autopsy on that case, did you?</s>BAO: I did not, but</s>I --  WEST: Did you witness the autopsy?</s>BAO: Yes, I did. I did.</s>WEST: And that's your database, if you will, for all of this?</s>BAO: Normally, we have -- we have two person. In this case, Dr. Gallagher did the autopsy. At that day, I -- I did not do autopsy, I think. So because this case is so rare, we have clear picture.</s>WEST: What I'd like you to focus on, please answer more fully if you need to, but I want to focus on your opinion as a medical examiner in this case.</s>BAO: Yes.</s>WEST: So that we're clear. Is it your testimony that immediately upon sustaining the gunshot wound to his heart and lung, that Trayvon Martin would not have been able to move voluntarily?</s>BAO: I think he was able to move a little bit.</s>WEST: How much?</s>BAO: Very, very little.</s>WEST: Could he pull his hands in? Could he move his hands?</s>BAO: I don't know.</s>WEST: Could he move his legs?</s>BAO: In this world, only one person knows.</s>WEST: Could he sit up?</s>BAO: I don't know.</s>WEST: All right, so somewhere between not being able to move at all and maybe move a little bit, you're just not sure how much or for how long? Is that what you're saying?</s>BAO: Again, I -- because nobody knows. Only one person knows in this room.</s>WEST: Objection, your honor. The -- the witness is not being responsive. Could we approach the bench, please?</s>JUDGE DEBRA NELSON: No. But please rephrase your question and wait until he asks the question to give your answer.</s>BAO: I don't understand your question because nobody knows what Trayvon did after George shot him.</s>JUDGE NELSON: Excuse me. Excuse me. Thank you. Dr. Bao?</s>BAO: Yes.</s>JUDGE NELSON: You need to wait until a question is finished being asked and you need to answer the question that is being asked. OK? Thank you.</s>WEST: Your honor, may we please approach just for a second. This is an important matter I'd like to address very briefly.</s>JUDGE NELSON: Just go ahead and ask your question, please.</s>WEST: May I have just a moment. I want to be precise with my question.</s>JUDGE NELSON: OK.</s>WEST: And as an expert, you're allowed to give an opinion, obviously.</s>BAO: Yes.</s>WEST: I just want to know what your opinion is.</s>BAO: Yes.</s>WEST: Your opinion is that Trayvon Martin may have been able to move some after sustaining the shot. You just don't know how much or for how long.</s>BAO: Yes.</s>WEST: Is that correct?</s>BAO: Nobody knows details.</s>WEST: All right, so because it's a matter of opinion?</s>BAO: Yes.</s>WEST: OK. So have you done any studies yourself other than this one occasion you're talking about or consulted any research on that specific issue, how long somebody could move or talk, what physical activity they're capable of, and for how long after sustaining a similar injury?</s>BAO: OK. For human study, we cannot do experiment. So in this world, nobody knows --</s>WEST: Your honor, the question --</s>BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: OK. You have all been watching. Still this back and forth, I tell you, this is getting tricky. You heard the judge, Deborah Nelson. She is running a tight ship. She wants the specific question asked, she wants the question answered and that is it. Let's move on. Again, got to get a quick break. They're talking specifically about whether or not Trayvon Martin could have, given this gunshot wound to his heart, have moved just a teeny tiny bit or not. We're still trying to figure that out according to this witness. Quick break.