Former Facebook Moderators Blows The Whistle
STELTER: Welcome back to RELIABLE SOURCES. I'm Brian Stelter. Sites like Facebook are the new public squares. So, who's keeping them clean or at least weeding out the worst of the worst, like violent videos and pornography? Well, "The Verge" is out with a rare inside look at Facebook's content moderators. Facebook has hired about 15,000 contractors to flag graphic, inappropriate, illegal content. These workers watch disturbing videos and other disturbing content depicting murders and other violent acts against people, and animals and even child pornography. But now, three of these former moderators have spoken out, breaking their nondisclosure agreements and speaking with Casey Newton of "The Verge". He's been leading the way on this beat. His news story is titled "Bodies in Seats" that documents the scathing working conditions at a content moderation site in Tampa, Florida, described as a sweat shop among other things. So, let's talk with one of those former moderators, someone who has been there, who's done this. His name is Shawn Speagle, and he's joining me now from Tampa. Casey Newton along with us as well. Sean, just tell us first what the job was. What were you moderating? What content were you looking at?</s>SHAWN SPEAGLE, FORMER FACEBOOK MODERATOR: Well, I was put into a department that was specializing in graphic content, which had to do with a lot of violent, sexual solicitation, lot of torture, a lot of abuse with minors. And I also was put into a queue that had a lot of hate speech. My job was specifically looking and researching for the authenticity of a lot of this violent content. And what a lot of people don't seem to understand is that a lot of this violent content isn't just stuff that's being re-uploaded from other popular sites such as Best Gore or Chaotic. It's actually a lot of handmade tailored content being auctioned off in these Facebook private groups. And, unfortunately, the vast majority of this content had to deal with sexual abuse and torture of animals.</s>STELTER: I feel like every once in a while, there's a lot of attention around a specific horrible video -- most recently, the massacre in Christchurch, New Zealand. But you were looking at horrible content every day?</s>SPEAGLE: Yes, I was looking at this content every day. (</s>INSERT 11: 30)</s>SHAWN SPEAGLE, FORMER MODERATOR, FACEBOOK: had to deal with sexual abuse and torture of animals.</s>BRIAN STELTER, CNN ANCHOR: I feel like every once in a while there's a lot of attention around a specific horrible video, most recently the massacre in Christchurch, New Zealand. But you were looking at horrible content every day?</s>SPEAGLE: Yes, I was looking at this content every day.</s>STELTER: And how did Facebook react when you started to experience the symptoms of PTSD after you know -- what was the recognition for management about what's been going on?</s>SPEAGLE: Well, unfortunately, Facebook never asked me that. And one of my co-workers and friends that worked in that queue with me, unfortunately, started having a lot of problems after watching a cannibalism video and he threw up in the restroom. After that, he was very slow sluggish. He was like a zombie. Part of the reason that I'm doing this is for him. He had a very hard time coping with what he saw, it was very traumatic. And this isn't just the</s>STELTER: It raises a lot of questions. One is why are people uploading this? What is the supply and demand here? Second, it raises a question to me, Casey, about who's going to manage all of this. Is it is it fair to say, Casey, someone or some algorithm has to try to clean up the sewer of social media?</s>CASEY NEWTON, SENIOR EDITOR, THE VERGE: Yes. Well, so what Facebook will tell you is that eventually, A.I. is going to solve this problem or at least it will be able to handle way more of the content in the future than it does today. But I have to tell you, I think that it is that view that has created problems like the ones that Shawn had. The minute that you decide that someday math is going to take care of this problem you start to look at people like Shawn as just a speed bump on the way to the future. And so I think that's led to a lot of the terrible working conditions that I've been reporting on.</s>STELTER: And how do you feel, Shawn, to be thought of as a speed bump.</s>SPEAGLE: Unfortunately it's very accurate regarding of my time there. I was not paid any mind regarding to what I was looking at. Nobody ever asked me how I was feeling. As I said before, there was my co- worker that was just visibly distraught, puking. Nobody would help him except me. None of the managers even care to come and talk to them. And worst of all is due to Facebook's policies, a lot of this content would stay up on these sites. And a lot of people don't seem to understand that a lot of this violent content regarding animals is not something people are going to see on a regular basis due to Facebook being used on a friends basis. So all of these are basically virtual black markets where people are auctioning off this violent obscene content of animals and Facebook is unfortunately not taking action against it.</s>STELTER: And people always talk about where is the line. We've been talking about this for months. What lines does Facebook draw with regards to violent content, with regards to lies and misleading content? Where do you think the lines should be drawn, Shawn?</s>SPEAGLE: I think the line should be drawn when animals are no longer able to be helped. I was told at Facebook that leaving this content up on their platform would help because police officers would see it which in hindsight doesn't make sense because police officers don't have any special software and they're not going into these private groups because it's invite-only and there's no good Samaritan that will be reporting this stuff. So all of this is just floating around on there and you're desecrating the animals last moments just because Facebook's policies are flawed.</s>STELTER: Casey, part of what Facebook said when we asked for comment about this was "we work with our content review partners to provide a level of support and compensation that leads the industry." The statement goes on to say, yes, there's going to be challenges. Employees are going to experience very challenging situations. When that happens, when the circumstances warrant action on the part of management, we make sure it happens. Is that true, Casey? Is Facebook any better or worse than others Silicon Valley Giants when it comes to content moderation?</s>NEWTON: So I have talked to moderators at other sites and certainly they do face similar challenges. They see similarly terrible things. I have not found moderators who have been more upset or who feel more traumatized than the moderators who I have spoken with at Facebook at least to date. This is a very hard job. But one of the things I want to draw attention to is that you setting aside the challenges of the job itself, if the working conditions are grim, if the office is filthy, if you don't feel safe, then you're going to have a really hard time doing a good job. So I think if we could start there, then maybe we could talk about you know, what is a better way to talk about the health of these moderators.</s>STELTER: Shawn, finally, your message to Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg is what?</s>SPEAGLE: My message is your platform should not be a virtual black market where people are auctioning off the unfortunate demise of animals, and children, and other human beings. You have the ability to stop this, I don't know why you won't. You need to fix your policies and you need to think of the living creatures that are being exploited on your platform. That's my message.</s>STELTER: Of all the issues with these social networks with misinformation and violence, I have to be honest, I wasn't aware that the issue with animal cruelty and black markets on these sites. It seems every week we discover a new ugly side of social media. These are sites we all benefit from and yet there are so many dangers as well. Shawn, thank you for speaking out. Casey, thank you for being here. A quick break and then we're going to turn to some breaking news out of Washington. A bipartisan bill to honor journalists who have sacrificed their -- sacrificed their lives to support a free press. We'll have the details to coming up.