America Divided On How Government Should Handle Same-Sex Marriage
ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington,</s>THE CAPITAL GANG. MARK SHIELDS, HOST: Welcome to THE CAPITAL GANG. I'm Mark Shields, with Al Hunt, Robert Novak and Margaret Carlson. Our guest is Republican senator John Sununu of New Hampshire. It's good to have you back, John.</s>SEN. JOHN SUNUNU (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: It's great to be here. Thank you.</s>SHIELDS: Thank you. George W. Bush opened his reelection campaign.</s>GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Come November, the voters are going to have a very clear choice. It's a choice between keeping the tax relief that is moving the economy forward or putting the burden of higher taxes back on the American people.</s>SHIELDS: The president announced his position on gay marriage.</s>BUSH: If we are to prevent the meaning of marriage from being changed forever, our nation must enact a constitutional amendment to protect marriage in America.</s>SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This president is talking about first amending the United States Constitution for a problem that does not exist.</s>SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He is doing this because he's in trouble. He's trying to reach out to his base. He's playing politics with the Constitution of the United States.</s>SHIELDS: CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll shows adult Americans oppose gay marriage by 2-to-1, but they are evenly divided over whether the federal government or the state government should determine laws on gay marriage. Margaret Carlson, is President Bush's position on gay marriage in 2004 a political plus or a political minus for him?</s>MARGARET CARLSON, CAPITAL GANG: Well, it's a plus the week that Rosie O'Donnell gets married and becomes the face of the issue.</s>CARLSON: It's a plus for him, but he doesn't need it. He's got his base anyway. They're not going to -- if this is your issue, you're not going to vote for a Democrat. And to make it an issue kind of diminishes the other issues that are important. Can you really be talking about gay marriage, which took up a big part of the debate the other night, when we still haven't found Osama bin Laden and we're supposed to be at war and we're after the terrorists and people are dying in Iraq? And you know, maybe there could be a slight backlash in that people are more divided over whether the federal government should get involved in this and the Constitution should have marriages. Are we going to have birthdays in there? Are we going to have, you know, how you should have a wedding? The Constitution is no place for this, and people know it.</s>SHIELDS: Bob Novak, in the past, both Mr. Bush and Vice President Cheney have repeatedly stated that this issue ought to be left to the states, and this is a turn-around. And the federal Defense of Marriage Act, in fact, does say the states are not required to recognize same-sex unions from any other state. So why now?</s>BOB NOVAK, CAPITAL GANG: Well, the supreme judicial court from your old state of Massachusetts has screwed it all up by its ruling. It'll go up to the U.S. Supreme Court, probably rule 5-to-4 in favor of gay marriage, and that's why a constitutional amendment is necessary. You know, Margaret, I know the Republican base, the conservative base, a little better than you do. I hope you'll agree with me on that.</s>NOVAK: And the idea that he has the base is wrong. They're very -- they're not happy with President Bush. If he had not come out for this constitutional amendment, he would have had defections. And there's not total satisfaction because the president, by -- implicitly says he's in favor of some kind of an arrangement for gay civil unions. So I think -- I think this is very important, and the fact that I couldn't make head nor tail out of what Senator Kerry, the Democratic frontrunner, was saying in the debate on this whole issue -- I think he's confused about it -- indicate that the Democrats are upset because the American people are against gay marriage, and the homosexual lobby is very important in the -- in the Democratic Party.</s>CARLSON: And these people are going to vote for Kerry, these members of the base?</s>NOVAK: No, they won't vote. That's the option we have. You don't have to vote in this country.</s>SHIELDS: There was a time, John, when conservatives argued that things ought to be states' rights, local option, local preference. Here we have the nuclear response by the president. It's the ultimate national, federal answer or solution, a constitutional amendment. As a conservative, could you take that one?</s>SUNUNU: Bob's point is absolutely right. The court in Massachusetts has forced this to become a national issue. That's the concern the president's raising. He's trying to respond to that. It should be a state issue. That's what the Defense of Marriage Act attempted to do. And that is also why John Kerry is in such a touch position because he's saying, I think this should be a state issue, but the one chance he had to vote for legislation that says states should decide this issue, all we are concerned about at the federal level is that no state should be forced to have it decided for them by another state -- he took a pass. He voted no. And that's why it's a difficult position for him. The president's dealt with this now because of what the courts have done, but at the end of the day, Margaret's also right, this is an election that's going to be determined by bigger issues -- national security, taxes, education, Social Security reform. And they'll drive the debate in November.</s>SHIELDS: Al Hunt?</s>AL HUNT, CAPITAL GANG: Well, a hundred days ago, when the Massachusetts court came up with its ruling, I think everyone agreed this was a bigger problem for the Democrats. Today I don't think people agree on that. I think it may be an equal problem for both sides, for a couple reasons. No. 1, what President Bush did was a raw political calculation. I don't think he believes this. I don't think he cares about it, frankly. And to enshrine sex in the Constitution for something you don't care about is really, you know, an unattractive step. I don't agree with John. I don't think the Massachusetts court did anything except affect Massachusetts. I don't think it affects New Hampshire at all. And I think, thirdly, people find out the more -- whether you like or dislike it, the more you find this happens, it's no big issue. It doesn't threaten anybody. It really doesn't. So I think this issue is a distraction, John, from the big issues of tax cuts and war and peace and other issues. It's a distraction for both sides. But my guess is it's not going to be -- you know, it's not going to tilt heavily one side or the other.</s>NOVAK: Can we -- can we give President Bush at least the credit for saying, when he says something, to have a presumption that he believes it, instead of insulting the president of the United States, saying, He doesn't believe in anything?</s>HUNT: Well, now, wait a minute, Bob. Wait a minute. After -- after sitting here for eight years under Bill Clinton and listening to what you said about Bill Clinton and what he believed and didn't believe -- I'm sorry. I don't think Bush believes in this.</s>CARLSON: And I think it's the suspicion of people that maybe he's a closet tolerant on the issue that made him come out and do this now, when actually, the Supreme Court hasn't ruled. There's no threat at the moment.</s>NOVAK: They will rule, though.</s>SHIELDS: Well, I remember when he came out after not meeting with the Log Cabin Republicans, the Republican gay group, during the entire campaign in 2000 -- met with them in 2001 and came out and said, We had a wonderful discussion. I'm a better person for this meeting. And it seems to me that one of the great divisions in the conservative movement is between those who say being gay is a matter of choice or it's a -- you're born that way, I mean, because there's a strong theme in there that says you can change if you'll just, you know, pray hard enough and -- is that -- is that implicit in this amendment?</s>SUNUNU: No. It's not. I think it gets back to the fact of whether you feel that the state of California or the state of Florida or Massachusetts should define how you deal with marriage in the state of New Hampshire or any other state. Now, you may say, Well, it's not under threat now, but everyone knows that this is going to wind its way to the Supreme Court and...</s>CARLSON: But why jump the gun?</s>NOVAK: Let's jump the gun and prevent...</s>NOVAK: ... and prevent the -- the 5-to-4 liberal majority...</s>HUNT: Well, I also want to quickly say...</s>NOVAK: ... from deciding it.</s>HUNT: ... Mark, if the point is to protect the institution of marriage, let's add an amendment. Let's, for instance, make infidelity unconstitutional because that certainly threatens.</s>CARLSON: And divorce. Yes.</s>HUNT: You know. Exactly. Far more so than gay marriage.</s>CARLSON: And Britney Spears getting married in Las Vegas -- let's put that in there.</s>SHIELDS: Last word, Margaret Carlson. John Sununu and THE GANG will be back, contrasting the two Johns in this Democratic race for president.</s>ANNOUNCER: Here's your CAPITAL GANG "Trivia Question of the Week." The most recent constitutional amendment was ratified in 1992. What was the subject, A, flag-burning; B, congressional salaries; or C, voting age? We'll have the answer right after the break.