Estranged Husband Murders Mother of Five
RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST: Tonight: She allegedly wants a divorce for months, but her estranged husband refuses. Twenty-nine-year-old mother of five Echo White tries to move on and begin dating. Authorities say her estranged husband comes to her home, and with her five children just a few feet away, allegedly shoots their mother and her new boyfriend with a semiautomatic firearm. Cops reportedly say he stands over the boyfriend asking, How does it feel now? So what does he do next? He runs.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Threatening, horrible, horrible messages, I`m going to kill you, I`m going to kill the kids.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five young children.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were there when the shooter showed up.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Behind his back (ph) and shot her twice in front of the kids. They had blood splattered on them.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Family members say Troy grew increasingly jealous of Echo`s budding romantic relationship with a friend.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then he shot her friend.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Friends say the male shooting victim was her new boyfriend.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Echo</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Echo`s world revolve around her children.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grandfather of the children had to break the grim news.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The kids are going to suffer forever and ever and ever.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Metro police identified the person of interest as Troy White.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have (ph) never, ever think this would have happened here.</s>COSBY: And good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. Thank you so much for being with us tonight. She allegedly wants a divorce, but her estranged husband refuses to move on. What happens next, horrific. Let`s go straight to John Phillips. He`s the host of KABC. John, how did this all start?</s>JOHN PHILLIPS, 790 KABC: Well, it all started on Friday morning when this guy, Troy White, who is the husband, the man who was separated for four months from his wife, Echo, goes over to the house. He goes over to her house, where five children are there. Three of the kids belong to the both of them. Two of the kids are hers from a previous marriage. And her boyfriend is there. And he goes over there with a gun to have a talk to Echo. He takes her into a room, where it`s just the two of them. They`re having a conversation --</s>COSBY: Wait, John! He goes over -- John, let me stop you. He goes over with a gun to have a talk with her? Sounds like --</s>PHILLIPS: Right, so --</s>COSBY: -- not a lot of talking there.</s>PHILLIPS: Right. Yes. This is what happens when you have a pitcher (ph) full of jealousy in a thimble-sized brain. So he`s there to have the talk with the gun. It escalates into a heated argument. Then he whips the gun out and she ends up being shot twice. Her boyfriend is there. He ends up being shot twice, once in the right side of his body, once in the arm. And as you said in the opening, Rita, he dramatically stands over him after he shoots him and says, How does it feel now? He then steals her car and is off to the races for the state line.</s>COSBY: Dave Mack, morning talk show host, Clean Channel WAAX radio -- Dave, tell us about this house. Where was the boyfriend? Where was everybody standing? And what I just think is so stunning -- these poor kids, five young kids -- they`re standing there while this is going on, while he`s not just shooting her, which is bad enough, then he goes and shoots the boyfriend, as well, in front of the kids!</s>DAVE MACK, CLEAR CHANNEL WAAX: It is exactly as crazy as it sounds. Now, the layout of the house -- they were separated. Now, the boyfriend was there. You`ve got Echo, who`s 29, and her soon-to-be ex-husband, who`s 44. He wants to talk to Echo, so he separates her from the pack (ph) and puts her in a room by herself. The boyfriend meanwhile is with the other children, putting them in a room separate from everybody. So there is a divide there. They then hear the arguing. The argument escalates, with the 44-year- old husband really getting vicious with his 29-year-old wife. That`s when the violence breaks out. That`s when the boyfriend then goes to her aid, but the shots ring out. The children are aware of what`s going on. They see that their mother`s been shot. They see the boyfriend`s been shot. And actually, according to the mother,</s>COSBY: John Phillips, the order of this -- first -- as I understand it, as Dave was saying, first this guy comes in. He goes for his wife -- they`re separated, though -- and then goes for the boyfriend, correct?</s>PHILLIPS: That`s right. She was first. The boyfriend was second. It`s still unclear as to the exact positioning of the kids when the shooting occurred. As the guy just mentioned, the talk show host just mentioned, there was -- there were some reports that the grandmother said that the kids, in fact, did get blood splattered on them. So they were right there in the heart of it, as their mother was slaughtered in cold blood by their father.</s>COSBY: C.W. Jensen, retired police captain, clearly, the kids had to be extremely close to get blood splattered on them. I mean, I can`t imagine what the kids were thinking when they`re watching this horrible scene unfold. And they`re also getting blood just (ph) technically -- they had to be extremely close.</s>J.W. JENSEN, RETIRED POLICE CAPTAIN: Correct. And there`s really two types of blood spatter. And I hate to do this to your viewers, but you know, if you`re shot in close range, of course, you`re going to -- you know, that body part is going to kind of explode and you`re going to have this explosive blood splatter. There`s also the fact that you can imagine that this suspect may have been bloodied himself and walked past these children, with blood dripping on them as he made his way through the apartment.</s>COSBY: Unbelievable scene. Joseph Averman now joins us. He was shot by his girlfriend`s estranged husband. And it`s unbelievable you survived. Unfortunately, your girlfriend did not. And you know, when I think about this, and I think about what Echo, your girlfriend, went through in front of her kids -- first of all, our condolences to you. And how are you doing? How is your family doing?</s>JOSEPH AVERMAN, ECHO`S BOYFRIEND (via telephone): I guess they`re all doing as well as they can at this point.</s>COSBY: It must just be shocking to you, Joseph, to have -- have seen this. And we`ve heard so many things about Echo just being a great mom, an effervescent, you know, wonderful woman. And this is -- this is a huge loss.</s>AVERMAN: Yes, it is. She was the best mother there could be. She was so full of life, just lived life to the fullest, always happy, always on the go.</s>COSBY: Can you describe what happened, Joseph? Because as we`re hearing it, you were there. First of all, I think it`s incredible you survived. You were shot twice, correct, or three times, right, once in the -- twice in the abdomen, once in the arm, correct?</s>AVERMAN: That is correct.</s>COSBY: And how close range were you shot at?</s>AVERMAN: I`d say about 15 to 20 feet.</s>COSBY: And how close was Echo shot by Troy White?</s>AVERMAN: Arm`s length.</s>COSBY: Arm`s length. Can you describe what happened, Joseph? You were there in the house. Suddenly, what, he comes to the home, and they were first talking in another bedroom, correct? Walk us through what happened.</s>AVERMAN: He came into the house and just asked to talk to her for five minutes because she hadn`t returned any of his calls or his texts that day. And so he came in and just asked -- he`s, Oh, just give me five minutes to talk to her. And he came in. He seemed, you know, a little irate, but nothing to that extent. At the very end of the hallway, there`s a bedroom to the left and a bedroom to the right. So the doors are directly across from each other. I was in the other bedroom. I had just laid the 6-month-old baby down in her crib in the one bedroom when they went into the other bedroom. Then I heard them arguing, and I went to open the door to make sure he wasn`t hurting her. And that`s when it all happened.</s>COSBY: And then, suddenly -- what was the next sound did you hear? Did you hear gunshots? What happened, Joseph, at that point?</s>AVERMAN: I seen him pull out -- he pulled the gun out and he shot her. Then he turned and he shot me.</s>COSBY: It`s just unbelievable to hear it and to hear -- obviously, it`s still so painful to relive it and I`m sure just so heart-breaking. And the kids were there, too, through all of this, correct?</s>AVERMAN: Yes, they were.</s>COSBY: What was he saying? Tell us again also what he said to you because in addition to doing the firing, he also was making some comments to you, right? What did he say?</s>AVERMAN: He just came into the room and he stood over me with the gun to my head. And he said, If I`m going to go to prison, then you`re going to die.</s>COSBY: Joseph, you`re very lucky to be alive tonight. And it is fortunate that you are alive tonight to be also able to testify and talk about what happened in the future with authorities. C.W. Jensen, I think Joseph`s going to be a very, very key witness, certainly, in this case. No question.</s>JENSEN: Oh, absolutely significant. And I think even the children will be, too. I mean, what we usually like to do is bring in some trained women, especially rape victim advocates and people that have dealt with child psychologists, things like that, to work with them. If there`s one thing that I think that this show -- if there`s one message that I`d like to see, it`s for women not to put themselves in this position. You know, it`s always that last, I just want to talk to you for five minutes, that goes so terribly wrong.</s>COSBY: Although the thing is --</s>JENSEN: Many times-</s>COSBY: The thing is -- and C.W., you`re right, although so many times, you know, here in this case, you know, you just never expect something as horrible as this, you know? There are obviously, and we`re going to talk about some of the warning signs, but you just people in their wildest imagination, you never imagine it`s going to come to this, right, C.W.?</s>JENSEN: Exactly. And remember, that`s why we have women`s shelters and we have all these support groups, because we lose a lot of women every year to horrible crimes like this. And I just -- having dealt with them over so many years, it`s just, like, if I could do one thing, I would grab someone by the shoulders and say, Get out of your house, take your children out of here, go somewhere safe and get out of this situation. It could happen to you.</s>COSBY: Absolutely. And it seems like a lot of warning signs. It seems like this guy was about to explode. Susan Moss, it is heart-breaking to hear.</s>SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: First of all, I`m going out of my mind! Don`t you dare blame this victim! Don`t you dare blame this victim for what she suffered! This is not -- she wasn`t killed because she didn`t have the foresight to take her five children, including a 6-month-old, and leave everything she knew behind and go into a shelter, maybe a one-room shelter for the six of them, which we don`t even have resources to have shelters all over this country! Don`t you dare blame this victim! This woman was killed because this man is a murderer! A murderer! And you know something? It is that attitude, it is the attitude that, Oh, you know, it`s her fault, she should have moved, how dare she put the kids in that type of danger -- it`s that type of attitude which causes this country not to take domestic violence seriously! What should have happened -- what should have happened is that at that first threat, the first threat, the authorities should have gone in and should have gotten this guy!</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Family members say Troy grew increasingly jealous of Echo`s budding romantic relationship with a friend.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He felt that, If I can`t have you, nobody else is going to have you.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Troy snapped.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Help. I need help. He says, My father just shot my mother and her friend.</s>COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. A heart-breaking and horrific scene as a woman is killed right in front of her five kids. And it`s her estranged husband who is now accused of that crime. Not only does he shoot and kill her, he also shoots at her boyfriend, and he, amazingly, survives. Let`s go to Amber Gaines. It was her daughter, beautiful Echo Lucas White. You can see the picture there. Echo was shot to death, allegedly, by her estranged husband. And Amber, first of all, we are so sorry for your loss. And I`m sure it is just so difficult to look at these pictures of your daughter and to just think about what happened, and now her estranged husband charged with this crime.</s>AMBER GAINES, ECHO`S MOTHER (via telephone): Yes, it is. Very, very hard.</s>COSBY: I cannot imagine how your family`s doing, and how the kids are doing. Do you know how the kids are doing now? How are they holding up after seeing this horrible scene?</s>GAINES: Actually, the boys are hanging in there, the older boys. I think they`re still kind of in a state of shock. But they`re doing pretty good. They are going to be seeking some good counseling. But they are hanging in there. They`re with their grandfather right now, and they`re in really good care.</s>COSBY: You know, one of the things --</s>GAINES: And the little cupcake (ph) is -- is just a sweetheart and she`s just hanging in there. They`re all doing pretty good.</s>COSBY: I`m happy to hear that, through all of this, very happy to hear that. You know, Amber, one of the things, too --</s>GAINES: My mother and myself and the rest of the family, we`re just totally, totally devastated that something like this could actually happen to my beautiful Echo because she`s never done anything wrong in her entire life, ever!</s>COSBY: Amber, it is so shocking when we hear what happened here. And I understand that there were some threats before, that this was a pretty volatile relationship with her and her estranged husband. Tell us about that.</s>GAINES: They were married for seven years. And in the beginning, the relationship seemed so wonderful. He was -- I even hate to say it, but Troy was just a wonderful father to those children. He was just -- they just loved him to death. My daughter seemed so happy in the first few years because she just -- you know, they went on vacations, they had extravagant cruises. She had the best of everything. And then just in the last six weeks, she -- I noticed bruises. I would ask her what`s going on. And she pulled up her shirt one day and showed me her back, and it was just bruises all over it. She was hit by choo-choo trains from the kids` toys, by Legos. She had shoes thrown at her. She had all kinds of toys thrown at her back when she was trying to sleep on the bottom bunk of the boys` bunk bed to get away from Troy. I asked her, Let`s just get a divorce and get him out of here.</s>COSBY: Did she -- did she -- Amber, did she call the authorities, too? Did she report this?</s>GAINES: I`m sorry?</s>COSBY: Did she report this to authorities? Did she say, Wait a minute, this is assault by my husband?</s>GAINES: She did report it to the authorities one night, and Troy fled before they got there. And they had told her, from what Echo had told me, that when they got there, Troy was gone. And they said, If he comes back in the area, give us a call. And that was the end of that.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a harrowing afternoon.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Crime scene tape and patrol cars lining the road.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Day of the shooting.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we don`t want to talk about it.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A male and female victims, appeared to have gunshot wounds.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Echo didn`t survive, and she should have. Not fair at all. Echo should have survived!</s>COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. Just a heart-breaking and terrible story that takes place. A woman tries to get a divorce from her husband. They`ve been separated for four months. He pays her back by coming over to the house with a semiautomatic weapon. He opens fire. And apparently, first he shoots her after an argument, shoots her to death, and then shoots her boyfriend three times, all in front of five children, their children, so -- their three children. It is just absolutely horrible, but their five children actually in the room, three of them their children. Let`s go back to Amber Gaines. She is the mother of Echo, who was shot to death, allegedly, by her estranged husband. And Amber, I also want to ask you about some of the history here of what happened. You talked about -- right before the break, you were talking about -- in the last six weeks, it sounds like their relationship was so volatile that she was hit on the head with a number of things and bruises on her body you were talking about and a number of things. Were there any, like, you know, calls, any other warning signs? I understand there may have been some text messages, too.</s>GAINES: There were several text messages that Echo had been getting, even when she stayed with me a couple weekends. Troy would constantly call every five minutes. I mean, it went on until wee hours of the morning. There were threatening calls. They were just really horrifying calls.</s>COSBY: What type of things were said in the calls there?</s>GAINES: They were calls saying, You`d be better off dead, along with the children. You`re a whore. You`re a C-U -- and some words we really can`t say on -- I wouldn`t even want to say out loud, just some horrifying words. He would call her. He felt that Echo -- he just couldn`t stand the fact that he had no control over her anymore. Troy was very controlling. He didn`t want to lose that control, and he was losing the control he had over my daughter. He -- he -- he -- didn`t like the fact that he couldn`t isolate her from -- from the population anymore. He had her all to himself. And Echo was not happy anymore because of the abuse.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In front of the kids. They had blood splattered on them.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Family members say Troy grew increasingly jealous of Echo`s budding romantic relationship with a friend.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then shot her friend.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Friends say the male shooting victim was her new boyfriend.</s>COSBY: And let`s go back to John Phillips, host with 790 KABC. John, give us a sense, again, of what happened in this terrible case. We`ve got this woman, she tries to split with her husband. He obviously doesn`t want to take that for an answer. And he then, what, shows up with a loaded gun to the home?</s>JOHN PHILLIPS, HOST, 790 KABC: That`s right. It all happened on Friday morning, when this woman, Echo, 29-year-old, was at home with her current boyfriend and her five kids. Three of the kids she had with her ex- husband. She was there. He shows up, wants to talk to her, brings a gun. I don`t know of any cases where a gun is required just to have a conversation. Goes into a room alone with Echo, while the kids and the boyfriend are separated. It turns into a heated argument. A heated discussion. Echo ends up being shot and killed. The boyfriend then is shot three different times. He survives. Just heard from him on the show. And that`s when this guy takes the car, takes the Dodge truck that belongs to the woman who was just shot and killed, Echo, gets in the car and takes off for the state line.</s>COSBY: Now, Dave Mack, he also turns himself in, correct? He drives, though, what, 250 miles with a stolen vehicle?</s>DAVE MACK, MORNING TALK SHOW HOST, CLEAR CHANNEL WAAX RADIO: Yes, he drove for six hours, Rita, and goes to Arizona. And in Prescott, Arizona, he goes to the police station, parks the car out front --</s>COSBY: Does he call -- does he call 911 and say, by the way, I just shot two people, help them? What does he do?</s>MACK: He actually goes straight to the police station and tells -- hey, I`m wanted for a shooting back in Nevada. And the gun`s in the -- where the spare tire belongs in her vehicle.</s>COSBY: Do we know, did he say, look, there`s an APV out for me, that`s why I`m here?</s>MACK: Yes.</s>COSBY: Do we know why he suddenly get a burst of conscience?</s>MACK: I doubt that. He -- but he knew he was a wanted man. He knew. I mean he stole her car when he left. And I don`t know what his goal was by getting to Arizona, just to get out and clear his head or whatever. But for six hours he drove, went to Prescott and went specifically there, and once he`s there, he turned himself in. And now of course, waiting extradition now. I don`t know what he was thinking. But either way you look at it, he turned himself in.</s>COSBY: And John Phillips, again as Dave was saying, he says to cops, by the way, you know, I`m wanted in the shooting, and by the way, also, here`s the weapon. Where was the weapon again? But he leads them right to the murder weapon, correct?</s>PHILLIPS: Right. Yes, literally the smoking gun. It was in the portion of the car where you keep the spare tire. So you had the gun that was on him. We presume that was the gun that was used in the murder. And it looks like they`ve got him dead to rights.</s>COSBY: Jade from Maine, who`s on the line, and everybody, we are also taking your calls. Also be sure to get a hold of us on Facebook and Twitter. Jade, what`s your question tonight, Jade?</s>JADE, CALLER FROM MAINE: Hi, Rita.</s>COSBY: Hi.</s>JADE: I`m actually just calling -- I was wondering if the husband had any, like, verbal contacts with the children while he was there? If they maybe -- if he had given them a reason as to why he was doing this to their mother? It`s such a great loss. I couldn`t imagine what he could have to say to them.</s>COSBY: Yes, it`s -- what could you say if -- that`s a great question. Let`s go actually to Joseph Averman. He is the man who was shot by Echo`s estranged husband. He miraculously survived after being shot three times. Was there anything -- I know that this guy, Troy White, makes these comments to you. But he also apparently -- did he make any comments to anybody else in the room, to the kids?</s>JOSEPH AVERMAN, SHOT ALLEGEDLY BY GIRLFRIEND`S ESTRANGED HUSBAND: During the whole thing, he just kept telling the children to get back into the room. To get out. And I`m not sure which kid, one of the kids said, daddy, you just killed mommy. And he said, no, it`s all Joe`s fault. If it wasn`t for Joe, your mommy wouldn`t be dead.</s>COSBY: Joseph, he said if it wasn`t for Joe, your mommy would not be dead? This is just incredible. What was your reaction at that point?</s>AVERMAN: Just my heart sunk. I didn`t really know what to think. I tried to get up and get to Echo, but I couldn`t -- I couldn`t move. I just wanted to make sure that Echo was OK.</s>COSBY: Joseph, where were you shot, and how are you doing?</s>AVERMAN: I was shot once in my right arm and twice in my right abdomen.</s>COSBY: And where --</s>AVERMAN: The bullet in my right arm severed the main artery and several nerves. I have no feeling in the bottom of my forearm at all. And one of the other bullets in my abdomen ricocheted and fractured my hip.</s>COSBY: Where was Echo shot also? Where was she shot?</s>AVERMAN: That, I`m not -- I guess in her chest, from what I`ve heard. It looked like -- when I seen her get shot, I thought he had only shot her once and I thought it was in the stomach. But, I mean, physically I`ll recover, but mentally I will never be the same.</s>COSBY: No doubt. How could you after what you went through. Caryn Stark, psychologist, just imagine, my heart breaks when I hear Joseph, that he had to see this. And also think about the children, too.</s>CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Trauma. This is extreme trauma. And so everybody needs to get a lot of help, including Joseph. And my heart goes out to you, Joseph. They need to see a therapist. They need to have somebody who will work with them, and help them to get through this. They need somebody who will also, for the children, be at their level, tell them stories, and help them to not accept blame. Actually, for Joseph, too, because that`s the first thing that happens, is -- it may be irrational, but children blame themselves for the loss of a parent. And so they need to know that they could never have done anything to help their mother. And Joseph needs to know that as well.</s>COSBY: Let`s go to the defense attorneys. Peter Odom, Darryl Cohen. You know, Peter, when you hear this, and it`s just so shocking, he comes over, you know, how do you feel now, and then he also says, it`s Joe`s fault, telling the kids. Can you imagine this? As the scene is unfolding, he`s telling the kids, you know, if your mom`s dead, basically it`s Joseph`s fault. It`s like -- it`s unbelievable.</s>PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. As a defense attorney, the part of the story that I would emphasize on this man`s behalf is, he was in love with this woman. He was forced out of this home, his own home, just four months previously.</s>COSBY: Wait, wait, wait, but what --</s>ODOM: He comes back to that home -- he comes back to that home.</s>COSBY: Yes, yes, but wasn`t that --</s>ODOM: He comes to that home --</s>COSBY: But that`s an excuse?</s>ODOM: He comes back -- listen to me.</s>COSBY: Please.</s>ODOM: He comes back to that home to find the new boyfriend with his wife, and the new boyfriend is putting his 6-month-old to bed.</s>COSBY: But, you know -- if -- but Peter, Peter --</s>ODOM: No, it`s not an excuse.</s>COSBY: This is -- no. Nothing --</s>ODOM: It`s not an excuse. But you can understand this --</s>COSBY: Peter, nothing is an excuse. Then you know that?</s>COSBY: Then you go get help. You don`t walk in with a gun. And you don`t do it in front of the children. You don`t do any of this. I mean this man is --</s>ODOM: But you can`t understand this without understanding the dynamic.</s>COSBY: Yes. But you know what, everybody -- there`s always some excuse, oh, I was angry, I was this. You know what, she clearly wanted a divorce and now you wonder why she wanted a divorce. It sounds like there may have even been some history before.</s>ODOM: Well, this is a textbook crime of passion. And that will be his defense at trial.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A woman full of life, love and devotion to her children.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He shot her twice in the chest.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Five children, all under the age of 9, sat inside.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The oldest boy ran to a neighbor`s house and told them his mother had been shot.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says, I need help, I need help, my father just shot my mother and her friend.</s>COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy. Let`s go back to the attorneys. Let`s go to Susan Moss. Also Peter Odom, Darryl Cohen. Susan Moss, you know, I hear this, and I hear Peter Odom saying, oh, he was angry, so he shows up with a gun, and then kills her and nearly kills her boyfriend? You know what, allow the divorce. Work it out. Get counseling. I`m sick of these so disgusting excuses. Crime of passion. Every crime is basically a crime of anger or passion. It is a pathetic, disgusting excuse. Susan?</s>SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: This was no crime of passion. This was premeditated. All you have to do --</s>COSBY: He gets the gun.</s>MOSS: All you have --</s>COSBY: And by the way, by the way, Susan, the other thing is the track record of this guy.</s>MOSS: The death threat.</s>COSBY: The mother says she saw bruises. He hits her with a choo-choo train. This was not suddenly something snapped.</s>MOSS: The death threats. He made death threats by phone, by texts, by e- mail, saying she should be dead, saying that the five kids should be dead. He left a textbook of what his premeditation was. And as long as we as a society let these men get off because it was a crime of passion, when they go and brutally kill, kill the people they claim to love, then this is only going to continue. And there was no remorse. No remorse. He`d looked into the eyes of his children and said, after just taking a gun and shooting their mother and say, it`s not my fault. And how about the child abuse. What he did to those children. He sentenced them to a life of life of emotional trauma.</s>COSBY: It is -- it`s just -- it`s heartbreaking, and my heart goes out to Joseph Averman and also Amber Gaines. Darryl Cohen, defense attorney, let`s hear it.</s>DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Rita, they have three kids together. They`ve been separated for four months. And she has another boyfriend? This doesn`t excuse it. This was nothing more and nothing less than a continuing crime of passion. Even when he fled, he had a chance to think about what he did. He came back and he turned himself in.</s>COSBY: You know why he turned --</s>COHEN: He has no reason for this.</s>COSBY: I knew you were going to go there. Hey, Darrell, you know I know I knew you were going to go there.</s>COHEN: Of course.</s>COSBY: Guess why he turns himself in? Because he knows he killed her. He -- he probably thinks he killed the other guy and guess what, he also knows there`s an APB out for him.</s>COHEN: Rita.</s>COSBY: Everybody knows he steals the vehicle.</s>COHEN: So what, Rita?</s>COSBY: It`s not like, he`s suddenly going to say, like, he`s a wonderful man, guess what, the whole world was looking for him.</s>COHEN: No, Rita, the truth of the matter is, he turned himself in because he knew he did something wrong. Obviously --</s>COSBY: Yes, because he knew he was a threat. Yes --</s>COHEN: But he didn`t leave.</s>COSBY: Yes, but -- is that excusing? Darrell, are you trying to excuse his behavior?</s>COHEN: No, I`m trying to explain his behavior.</s>COSBY: By the way, I`m so sorry, I`m so sorry. I`m so sorry.</s>COHEN: It`s something -- I`m tried of people jumping to conclusions.</s>COSBY: You know, I happen to -- I happen to kill. Jump to conclusions? He comes over with a gun, Darrell. He comes over and --</s>COHEN: Yes, and it`s legal to have a gun.</s>COSBY: I guess, but it`s not legal to go ahead and murder your wife.</s>COHEN: No, it is not. But his wife --</s>COSBY: And try to murder her boyfriend.</s>COHEN: It is not his wife`s fault. But his wife did not use common sense.</s>COSBY: Wait a minute.</s>COHEN: She knew she had been threatened. You don`t have a man putting your own kids to sleep.</s>COSBY: Wait a minute. Don`t you dare? Darrel? Don`t you dare.</s>COHEN: I will dare because he has a right not to be upset.</s>COSBY: Don`t you dare blame the victim. Don`t you dare blame the victim. That is shameful.</s>COHEN: I`m blaming her because she egged him on. If she had not had a boyfriend, if she hadn`t had this boyfriend --</s>COSBY: Oh, wait a minute. That is shameful.</s>COHEN: -- putting the kids to sleep, then she`d still be alive.</s>COSBY: Susan Moss --</s>COHEN: No.</s>COSBY: Listen, I cannot believe what I am hearing out of your mouth, Darrell. Susan Moss?</s>MOSS: As long as we let these men get off with slaps on their hand, it will continue. If we as a society want to create a public policy and truly stand up to domestic violence, we need to make sure that the penalties fit the crime. It is clear, you heard the witness describe the murder scene. And what had happened? There is no doubt what had happened. This man premeditated, walked into that house after explaining on the phone that he was going to kill her. He took the gun, he aimed, he shot multiple times, and she`s dead. This is a capital one case. And it must, must be punished accordingly. Or else we as a society have not only failed this woman, we have failed the children, and we`ve failed every other survivor of domestic violence.</s>COSBY: You bet. I just -- I cannot believe I`m hearing this out of your voice. Caryn Stark, psychologist, this attitude of, like, oh, you know, she shouldn`t have had a boyfriend, she shouldn`t have done this. I think it is shameful.</s>STARK: I`m backing up Susan Moss 100 percent. What is this man saying? I can`t even believe that he`s actually saying it right now on television. And -- what, she shouldn`t have had another man tucking in her kids? Where is there a law that says that she is not allowed to have somebody else? And this is a premeditated crime. He knew what he was doing. He was threatening, he was abusive. I mean, it was -- a nice, a wonderful thing that she actually had somebody loving her, kind to her and helping her. No one is allowed to kill another person because they have rage and impulse and they can`t control themselves. He`s a psychopath. He`s not a person who was all of a sudden walked into a scene of passion, and lost his mind.</s>COSBY: And you know what also, Caryn, they were separated for four months. They were clearly separated. He was aware, sort of, of this boyfriend. So again, as you pointed out, Caryn, it wasn`t just suddenly a snap of the moment.</s>STARK: That`s right. That`s right, Rita. And I think that this guy is just saying it. I think his name is Darryl? The one that`s talking right now? I think he`s saying it to get attention. Because it`s so outrageous that he would say something like that and blame the victim. He`s actually blaming the person that was shot. And her boyfriend who was shot. That she had no right to have him there. And I guess if he were in that situation, he would shoot somebody, too.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Crime scene tape and patrol cars lining the road.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cops running into the house and someone brought out a child.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Echo White had separated from her husband, Troy, four months ago.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He came over with a gun behind his back. Echo didn`t survive.</s>COSBY: And Echo White, a mother of five, is shot to death, brutally shot, by her estranged husband. She wanted a divorce from him. And he comes into the house with a gun, pulls her into the bedroom to talk, then she ends up shot to death and he also tries to kill her boyfriend. Let`s bring in that boyfriend, Joseph Averman, again, he was very close to Echo White. And, Joseph, you know, I have to get you to respond because I am just stunned. I guess nothing surprises me what Darryl Cohen or Peter Odom are going to say, but they`re saying, basically, well, you know what, he was mad, you know, he was -- she was with you. It is jealousy and she shouldn`t have had somebody else tucking the kids in at night, and basically she asked for it. It`s most outrageous thing. And I want to give you the opportunity, Joseph Averman, because you lost your wonderful, wonderful girlfriend, this incredible woman. I want to get to you respond to these outrageous comments, I think, from people like Darryl Cohen and Peter Odom.</s>AVERMAN: Well, first off, I want to say Echo and I were like best friend over -- I knew both of them for a very long time and Echo and I were very, very close. Now, whatever Darryl is saying about it`s her fault and that - - if Troy would have treated Echo like the princess that she deserved to be treated like, then she never wouldn`t have even ever asked for a divorce. She is a very, very faithful woman. He treated her the way she did and it forced her to go elsewhere. And in our friendship, it became a little bit more. And the fact he -- he didn`t even care for his baby girl. He never held her. He never -- he didn`t want her. He was too old to have another baby. He never took care of her at all except for when he was forced to.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was a lot of pushing and shoving behind closed doors that we didn`t know about.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Troy snapped.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shot her twice.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Now the life they knew has ended.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The kids are going to suffer forever and ever and ever.</s>COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace. Let`s go right to Dr. Michelle Dupree, medical examiner, also forensic pathologist. Dr. Dupree, we`re just talking to Joseph, first of all, it`s incredible he survived. He was shot three times, twice in the abdomen, once in the arm. What`s the likelihood, first of all, the type of recovery for him?</s>DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Nancy, that is -- I`m sorry, Rita, that is absolutely amazing that did he make it through this, so kudos to that. Being shot three times, especially in the abdomen, you lose a lot of blood and there can be some infections subsequent to that, because that cause serious problems later.</s>COSBY: You know the other thing, she was shot in the chest twice, very unlikely she would have survived that, right?</s>DUPRE: Absolutely.</s>COSBY: And it sounds like it`s very close range as well, very, very close range. Amazing that did he indeed survive in this case. And everyone, tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Private 1st Class Patrick Fitzgibbon. Just 19 years old from Knoxville, Tennessee, he was killed in Afghanistan. He was awarded the Bronze Star, the Purple Heart, and the National Defense Service medal. He loved video games, skateboarding and playing the guitar. He leaves behind his parents, Donny and Trish, four brothers and one sister. Patrick Fitzgibbon, a true American hero. And I want to share something with all of you, very special that will be happening tomorrow to honor my hero, my father, Lieutenant Richard Cosby. My father, as many of you know, was a Polish resistance fighter in World War II, who courageously fought as a teenager against the Nazis in the Warsaw uprising of 1944. Weighing just 90 pounds and standing six feet tall he amazingly escaped from a German POW camp and was saved by American troops. Tomorrow, he will be posthumously awarded during his memorial service with one of Poland`s highest honors called the Order of Polonia Restituta. Past recipients of this prestigious award include solidarity leader Lech Walensa, Generals Dwight D. Eisenhower, Omar Bradley and Douglas MacArthur, and now my father. Congratulations, Dad. I know you are smiling from above as you are now with your brave comrades once again. We love you and we will miss you very, very much, Dad, but I am so, so proud of you. I`m Rita Cosby, I`m in for Nancy Grace. Dr. Drew is coming up next. Do not touch that dial, everybody. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 p.m. sharp Eastern Time. And until then, good night, everybody. END