Alabama Governor Signs Near-Total Abortion Ban Into Law; Alabama Governor Signs Near-Total Abortion Ban Into Law; Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY) Is Interviewed About The Abortion Bill.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. We begin with breaking news. One signature that could be the first step toward overturning the Supreme Court's landmark Roe v. Wade decision that legalized abortion. Just over an hour ago, Alabama's Republican Governor Kay Ivey signed into law the most restrictive abortion bill in the country. The bill passed the state senate last night. It outlaws abortion at every stage of pregnancy with exemptions for serious health risk but not for rape or incest. Doctors who perform an abortion could face 99 years in prison. Critics of the bill point out that's the same or even less time than a convicted rapist. And if they attempt it, a doctor could be locked up for 10 years. That is significant, but I touched on, there's a bigger picture, what it could mean for the fate of Roe v. Wade. A Republican sponsor of the bill in the House, Alabama State Representative Terri Collins, makes no bones about it, she called it a, quote, direct attack on the 1973 U.S. Supreme Court ruling. She says it's about challenging the decision, protecting lives of the unborn. It's a message shared by other Republicans in the state senate.</s>STATE SENATOR CLYDE CHAMBLISS (R-AL): A life is a life and even if its origins are in very difficult situations, that life is still precious. Life is a gift of our Creator, and we must do everything that we can to protect life.</s>COOPER: Now, as you might imagine, Mr. Chambliss there is one of the people who voted for the bill, one of the men who voted for the bill. In fact, only men voted to support the bill, it is not sitting well with Democrats in the Alabama State Senate who are taking issue with the 25 men in all. Here is one of the opponents of the bill.</s>STATE SENATOR LINDA COLEMAN-MADISON (D-AL): Republicans, y'all, you guys used to say we want the government out of our life. We want them out of our business. We want them out of our bedroom. Now, you in my womb. I want you out. You don't control this. You don't own this.</s>COOPER: This really does seem to be heading toward a showdown in the Supreme Court, if they choose to take it up. It's worth noting where the public is on this. The most recent polling shows 57 percent want it to stand, 21 percent say overturn it, 22 percent are unsure. Joining me, one of the only doctors who performs abortions in Alabama, Dr. Yashica Robinson. Doctor, thanks so much for being with us. Can you just explain as a doctor who provides abortions the effect of this law will have on the communities that you serve?</s>DR. YASHICA ROBINSON, ALABAMA WOMEN'S CENTER FOR REPRODUCTIVE ALTERNATIVES: Well, thank you for having me. This law will have a devastating impact on the patients that I serve. We know that abortion care is health care. It is very necessary in many instances and with this law, it will limit options for women who are pregnant. It also ties the hands of physicians as we look to take care of women.</s>COOPER: The notion that if a doctor does perform an abortion after the law goes into effect, they could end up serving more jail time than a rapist or someone who commits incest, does that make any sense to you?</s>ROBINSON: It makes no sense to me. There's no other area of medicine that doctors are restricted in this way or criminalized in this way. It is not right to penalize physicians for performing a service that certain individuals find morally objectionable to them. We do know like we said, we want lawmakers to not insert themselves into our personal lives. Women and physicians can make the decisions for themselves. We already know that abortion care is very safe and this just shouldn't happen.</s>COOPER: The law does leave an opening for serious health risk to the mother where a doctor could use, quote, reasonable medical judgment and perform an abortion. Are you clear about what exactly that means? Because it doesn't seem like it leaves the door open for the doctor's judgment after the fact.</s>ROBINSON: You know, as an obstetrician who also performs abortions, no, I'm not clear about exactly what that means. I already met instances where it is difficult for us to determine those things in the health care setting now, and it has resulted in delays in care. So, in the instance where now as a physician I have to contemplate whether someone is going to go back and scrutinize care that I rendered to my patients and whether they're going to agree or disagree and whether their opinion could cost me my freedom, it puts me in a difficult position. It also puts me in a position whereas a physician I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. You know, on one hand, I could end up serving jail time. But on the other hand, if I don't do what's best for my patient and my patient is harmed, then I have to worry about potential litigation from the patient or her family. That should never happen.</s>COOPER: Do you plan on continuing to provide this service until the law goes into effect and once it goes into effect, what are you planning to do?</s>ROBINSON: Absolutely. I do intend to continue to provide services until the law goes into effect. Until that time, we're going to continue to take care of women every single day, reassure them we're here to take care of them. We're going to continue to work with women to teach them to advocate for themselves. We're going to continue to speak up, and speak out. We're going to gain consensus from other people to see if we can keep this law from going into effect. And if we are unsuccessful, then I will do everything that I can with then legal means to make sure that women can continue to have access, if that means helping women to find the financial means to get to other areas, if it means me traveling so that I can increase access in other areas, I'll do what it takes because I know that this is important.</s>COOPER: Yashica Robinson, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.</s>ROBINSON: Thank you.</s>COOPER: Lots to talk about with CNN political analyst Kirsten Powers, CNN senior political commentator and former presidential candidate Rick Santorum, and CNN chief legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, whose bestselling book "The Nine" explores the inner workings of the Supreme Court where this battle is most likely headed. Kirsten, what do you -- how do you see the significance of what has just happened now in Alabama?</s>KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I mean, I think it is significant on a lot of different levels. There's obviously, you know, a lot of people talking about the political significance of it. And I think that Republicans have made pretty clear not just with this but I think with the Infant Born Alive Act which is something that Ben Sasse has sponsored and all of the Republicans voted for, that they're making abortion first of all a political issue in 2020. There's the legal implications of it, which Jeffrey can get into more, about the fact that they are -- it is not just Alabama that's passing bills like this. There are other states and they're doing it in part because that's what they believe, also because they want to get something to the Supreme Court because they hope the Supreme Court will overturn it. And then there's just the substantive impact of it, which is incredibly extreme. It is something that's even caused division in the pro-life community, the idea of not even having exceptions for rape and incest, something that close to 80 percent of Americans support.</s>COOPER: Jeff, back in June when Kennedy announced his retirement, you said, I want to make sure I get this right, you said that abortion would be illegal in 20 states in 18 months. You got a lot of push back, a lot of Trump supporters saying, what are you a mind reader, how can you say this? Do you --</s>JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: I -- for better or worse, I think I was right. I mean, look, Donald Trump said in the third debate with Hillary Clinton, if I get two or more appointments to the Supreme Court, automatically, that's the word he used, automatically Roe v. Wade will be overturned, and I think the president was exactly right. Roe v. Wade is gone and every woman in Alabama who gets pregnant is going to be forced to give birth soon, and that's going to be true in Alabama. It's going to be true in Missouri. It's going to be true probably in Georgia, and that's what the law is because that's what the presidential election was about in part last time.</s>COOPER: Would this be into effect, though, if the Supreme Court hasn't ruled on it?</s>TOOBIN: Well, I think they are going to rule on it, and I think they're going to uphold it. I mean, this is what the fight has been about for years. I think that the legislators were very smart. They waited until they got five votes on the Supreme Court, and now they're going to push this thing through. And Brett Kavanaugh, and Neil Gorsuch are going to be joined by Chief Justice Roberts and Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito, and this is a victory Rick and others have been fighting for decades, and they've won and they should celebrate.</s>COOPER: Rick, Senator Santorum, does it -- A, I want you to respond to what Jeff said. Also, but -- the idea that a rapist that gets someone pregnant could get less jail time than a doctor performing an abortion, does that make sense?</s>RICK SANTORUM, CNN SENIOR POLTICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, yes, it does make sense, because we're ignoring the other person in the situation, and that's the child. The rapist, according to the Supreme Court, someone who's convicted of a violent, a horrible, I mean, just -- whatever, doesn't matter, all rapes are horrible, but you can take the most horrible rape and according to the Supreme Court, the death sentence is not -- is cruel and unusual punishment, but the child who is conceived as a result of that can be killed. And that to me is a house divided. You can't say somebody commits a horrible crime, doesn't receive a death sentence, but a child who's innocent does. And that's why you're seeing -- I mean, Anderson, I think people don't realize this law, Roe versus Wade has been in effect for 50 years, yet this country is as divided as it is now as it was 50 years ago. Why? Because this is wrong. And if this was such -- and all of the prognosticators predicted within 10, 20 years, everybody is going to be for abortion. It didn't happen, why? Because you're killing a human being. And it's obvious to anybody because it's a fact.</s>COOPER: Right.</s>SANTORUM: And some can convince themselves that it's OK to do that. But a lot of Americans, even those that are pro-choice are very uncomfortable with this because it's wrong. And that's what --</s>COOPER: Couldn't you also make the argument that it is just a complex issue? I mean, I understand --</s>SANTORUM: It is a complex issue. I agree with that.</s>COOPER: You say it is wrong, but not everybody -- you can be uncomfortable with it and still believe it should be the law. You can be -- you know, there's many nuances --</s>SANTORUM: But you're taking a human life. You're taking an innocent human life.</s>COOPER: Kirsten, go ahead.</s>POWERS: Well, yes, but hold on, can I say something here? I mean, it is not true that people are just as divided. I mean, Anderson just put up a poll. It's a Fox News poll, that 57 percent of Americans don't think Roe v. Wade should be overturned. So I think that these --</s>SANTORUM: Half the people consider themselves pro-life, Kirsten.</s>POWERS: I know, but people who consider themselves pro-life often don't hold other people to that standard. So, what you are espousing is your religious views and --</s>SANTORUM: No, no --</s>POWERS: Yes. Hold on. Let me finish.</s>COOPER: Let her finish, let her finish.</s>SANTORUM: Au contraire.</s>COOPER: Let her finish.</s>POWERS: You're Catholic. Don't tell me these views don't stem from your Catholicism. I mean, this is -- and that's fine. I respect that. I absolutely respect that.</s>SANTORUM: I'll be happy to talk about it if you want to know where it comes from.</s>POWERS: But my point is it is not something that all Americans agree on. And I think people of good faith who thought a lot about this issue have come to a different conclusion about it and they don't actually think that an embryo is -- has the moral value that you're putting on it. And I'm not debating whether that's right or wrong, I am saying there isn't agreement, there's disagreement of people of good faith, and I think a lot of people, even pro-life people recognize that, which is how you end up with 57 percent of Americans saying Roe v. Wade should be the law of the land.</s>SANTORUM: Yes, you used the term you don't put the moral value. And that's because you're trying to couch this in moral terms. I don't. I mean, you never heard me talk about it in moral terms or in terms of my faith. I came to being pro-life because my father-in- law was a geneticist, and when I was running for Congress, I was conflicted on the issue of abortion when I first ran for office. I had never taken a position. And I sat down with him and we had a really in depth medical discussion, what is this thing in the womb, is it a unique DNA, it is alive, a human being, is there anything different that is --</s>POWERS: But, Rick --</s>SANTORUM: And the answer genetically, scientifically, otherwise, this is a human life.</s>POWERS: Right, OK.</s>SANTORUM: And for you to say, well, this is morally, not as significant as later, that's you --</s>SANTORUM: I'm just enforcing the facts.</s>POWERS: No, no, no, I didn't say that. I didn't say that that's what I thought. I'm not talking about what I think. I'm saying there are other people who have all those facts, reformed Jews, for example, who don't reach the same conclusion, and they have as much good faith and same information and don't come to the same conclusion. That's all I'm saying.</s>SANTORUM: You say they don't come to the same conclusion, what do you mean by that, say it is not a child? That it's not a human life?</s>POWERS: They say, I think the debate is over. Nobody is questioning whether it is a life. That's a scientific fact.</s>SANTORUM: OK.</s>POWERS: There's debate whether or not somebody looks at an embryo at three weeks, or four weeks, sees a person.</s>SANTORUM: So it is what the person can do or look like.</s>POWERS: So that's the debate. And so, but it's just interesting that you can't even allow for the possibility that somebody could think differently on this.</s>COOPER: We got to leave it there.</s>SANTORUM: No, don't put words on my mouth. I do think that people can think differently. All I'm saying is that it's not a scientific point of view, it is -- they're making moral judgment about a value of life at a particular point of time in that life.</s>POWERS: Right.</s>SANTORUM: As we could do at the end of life, we could do for people who have disabilities, and I'm saying I don't want to make that decision, I don't want to be the person making decision as to what life is valuable and worth protecting. I believe all life, innocent life should be protected.</s>POWERS: Are you for the death penalty, Senator Santorum?</s>SANTORUM: You know what? For a long time, I was. I'm not a fan of it anymore. And by the way, there's a difference. And again, I think people of moral -- of good moral conscience can disagree. In this case, it's not an innocent human life. This person did something horrible that may deserve punishment as opposed to a child has done nothing to deserve punishment.</s>COOPER: OK, we've got to leave it there. Senator Santorum, Kirsten Powers, Jeffrey Toobin. More to come on all this. I'd get reaction from 2020 Democratic presidential candidate, Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. First, the White House counsel says no, no way to the House Judiciary Committee for documents in the probe of team Trump. How the Democratic chairman of the committee responded, next.