Should the Indian Names of Teams Be Changed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here you see Chief Osceola.</s>BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Is this offensive? How about this? The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights is recommending sports teams stop using Native American names, symbols and mascots. American-Indian activists say it is disrespectful and offensive, but others see it differently. They say the names and symbols reflect honor and pride in Native American tribes and customs. Is it a badge of honor or a mocking disgrace? Who would it hurt to change a name, and who gets hurt if you don't? Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. This is not the first time the use of American-Indian names and faces to represent sports teams has come under fire. And while the U.S. Civil Rights Commission cannot legally force schools to change their team names, it has some influence over what schools do. In its statement, the commission says -- and we're quoting now -- "The stereotyping of any racial, ethnic, religious or other group when promoted by our educational institutions teach all students that stereotyping of minority groups is acceptable, a dangerous lesson in a diverse society. The commission assumes that when Indian imagery was adopted for sports mascots, it was not to offend Native Americans. However, the use of the imagery and the traditions, no matter how popular, should end when they are offensive." Joining us first today, Vernon Bellecourt, president of the National Coalition on Racism in sports and the media. He's also a founding member of the American-Indian Movement's grand governing council. Also on the phone with us from Pine Ridge, South Dakota is Elsie Meeks. She is a member of the Oglala Sioux tribe and the first American Indian of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. Vernon, let me first get reaction to you. The commission also said that these nicknames and mascots were disrespectful and offensive. There's a certain lack of understanding about that, so explain to us why Native Americans feel that way.</s>VERNON BELLECOURT, NATIONAL COALITION RACISM IN SPORTS: Well, our warmest greetings to both you, Bobbie, and Elsie and, of course, your viewers. You know, we are a living people with a living culture -- beautiful art, music, tradition, dance -- and much of this is being distorted by both amateur and professional sports programs. So, of course, we are very pleased that the -- while it doesn't carry the weight of law, the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights through the work of Elsie Meeks and after our testimony one year ago to an advising panel to the commission, took this issue up. And while it doesn't carry the weight of law, certainly, they are providing the moral leadership that Ted Turner, CNN, AOL-Time Warner, Daniel Snyder in Washington, Lamar Hunt in Kansas City, Dolan up in Cleveland, and various border regions from Florida State University to the University of Illinois, University of North Dakota, University of Utah, should be providing. So we are very pleased with decision of the commission.</s>BATTISTA: Is it the names itself? In other words, I think some people may see this as various degrees of offense, if you will. In other words, to be called the Redskins is more offensive than to be called the Seminoles?</s>BELLECOURT: Of course, of course. Redskins is patently racist. And, of course, the grinning bucktooth logo of the Cleveland baseball franchise, also known as the Indians, is similar. We call it our red Sambo, which is very much similar to Rastus, Amos and Andy, Black Sambo and lawn jockeys. While there's nothing wrong with the word "Warriors," "Braves," "Chiefs," or "Indians," those are not our words. Those words created by Hollywood movies and the cheap 10-cent Western novelists. But when you attach it to a sports team, then it conjures up and triggers all the ridiculous behavior, stereotypical behavior, which is really an offense and an insult to Indian people and non- Indian people who can smell the stench of racism across the country.</s>BATTISTA: Now what do you say then, though, to situations where the schools seems to have gone out of its way to deal with the situation with respect and dignity? Let's take Florida State University Seminoles, for example, which has the blessing of the Seminole tribe. And Seminole women, as I understand it, even make the uniform that Chief Osceola wears. What do you say to that?</s>BELLECOURT: Well, they have some economic interests, but the fact is Chief Osceola was betrayed by the United States government and assassinated. And now for the current president of he Seminoles of Florida is against the wishes of almost all other Seminoles in the state of Florida and in the state of Oklahoma, where the largest body of Seminoles reside. So there's an economic interest. Obviously, some of the Cherokees in North Carolina make all the cheap tomahawks and chicken feather head-dresses. So the chief</s>BATTISTA: Let me read at this point before I bring in Armstrong in. This is a statement that we got from the president of Florida State University. And he said, "Under the principles of tribal sovereignty, the Seminole tribe of Florida's elected leadership has determined that they support our activities and use of the Seminole name. So far as we know, there is no sentiment among that leadership to urge FSU to change the name of its team. Indeed, the Seminole tribe has staged public events that demonstrate that support. However, I will review the commission's report closely and take its recommendations into careful consideration." Let me get Armstrong Williams into this conversation. Armstrong -- roll up on that just a little bit so I can see the name of Armstrong's book. Yeah, he is CEO of the Graham-Williams Public Relations firm now and host of the radio talk show, "The Right Side With Armstrong Williams." His latest book, by the way, is "Beyond Blame, Moving Beyond Being a Victim." Hi, Armstrong. I should know that by heart now, shouldn't I, your introduction?</s>ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, TALK AMERICA RADIO NETWORK: Hi, Bobbie. It's OK.</s>BELLECOURT: Good afternoon, Armstrong.</s>WILLIAMS: Good afternoon.</s>BATTISTA: You don't think that -- you're not sensitive to this at all?</s>WILLIAMS: I'm listening, you know. I'm listening to what he's saying. I'm hearing him. And I'm just having -- I'm just rushed with thought. You know, when I think about the Dallas Cowboys, are we going to have the cowboys from the days of the Westerns come forward and say, "We want to protest your using the 'Cowboys'"? I mean, we don't...</s>BELLECOURT: Cowboys is a profession.</s>BATTISTA: They're not an ethnic group.</s>BELLECOURT: Cowboys is a profession not a race of people, Armstrong.</s>WILLIAMS: But wait a minute. Let me finish.</s>BELLECOURT: Let's get it straight.</s>WILLIAMS: When people talk about -- I'm in Washington, D.C., and when we talk about the Washington Redskins or the Atlanta Braves, I mean, we say it with pride. I mean, do you think an institution, a university is going to absolutely associate a team with something that's derogatory? That is a name that instills pride and courage and for people root for their team. I think sometimes we take this political correctness too far.</s>BELLECOURT: It has nothing to do with political correctness, Armstrong.</s>WILLIAMS: And the ultimate insult is for you to assume because I root for the Washington Redskins, I may do the tomahawk when the Seminoles are playing that I'm some kind of anti-American. In essence, you're saying that we are racist and bigoted and we need the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights to protect us. And that's ludicrous.</s>BELLECOURT: You said that -- you raised the term racism and bigotry, Armstrong. Armstrong incidentally, the last time I seen you was in one of the finest soul food restaurants in Washington, either the Florida Avenue Grill or Wilson's just about two months ago, and I came by and I said to you that wouldn't it be great if you would raise this issue on your program, which I understand is pretty popular in Washington? And at that time, you expressed pretty much the same thing. And when I told you about Wahoo, the character in Cleveland, the word 'Redskins," which has been declared racist and offensive -- the fact is they canceled their trademark protection, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office three-judge federal panel. Recently, the new owner, Dan Snyder, said the only thing more embarrassing about our 2000 records is our name. So, obviously, Mr. Snyder is getting the message, Armstrong. You say you're listening, but I don't think you're really hearing us. And the fact is there are those that said, while Africans are Negroes who said that Rosa Parks shouldn't have gotten on the bus if she didn't like it. Charles Barkley said he thought we were getting too thin-skinned. David Justice said, well, we ought to leave it alone. Now, you know, Armstrong, I'm really surprised, because if you can't understand the correlation between lawn jockeys, Amos and Andy, black face, Rastus and little Black Sambo, then I think you're out of touch with the mainstream of African-American. The fact is, you know, our detractors always can go out and find some old hang--around-the- fort Uncle Tom Tom Indian, which is similar to some Uncle hang-around- the-plantation Uncle Tom Negroes to say it's okay. They thought that Martin Luther King should not have come to the South. So I think you're a little out of touch with the main thought in this country.</s>WILLIAMS: So what happens when we don't agree with you, you resort to the name-calling, the insults?</s>BELLECOURT: No, I don't think it's name calling, Armstrong.</s>WILLIAMS: Let me finish. I did not interrupt you. I did not interrupt you. Please, respect. The issue here is I don't agree with you. I think that it's -- I think on the issue of the Cleveland baseball team and the mascot, I think there's an issue there that should be explored. But they have a sweeping change. They changed the Redskins and many of these institutions that have used this mascot.</s>BELLECOURT: Redskins is the most patently offensive name.</s>WILLIAMS: I just think you're going too far. I think...</s>BELLECOURT: Armstrong, will you just listen for a moment and then I will listen to you?</s>WILLIAMS: And you're just totally -- you're just totally disrespecting the Seminoles in the state of Florida by saying they are wrong and you are right.</s>BELLECOURT: They are wrong.</s>WILLIAMS: Who died and left you in charge?</s>BELLECOURT: Ninety-nine percent of two-point-some-million Indian people in this country are opposed to mascots. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, National Organization of Women, National Congress of American Indians -- and I could go on and on -- that are opposed to mascots. Now if you look at Random House Dictionary -- and I hate to use these word, but I think it will make my point...</s>WILLIAMS: Yeah, right.</s>BELLECOURT: Look at Random House Dictionary. There are four racial slurs. One is kike, wop, honky, nigger, and Redskins. Now if you can't understand that, and you want to keep supporting the Redskins, then you are way off track, Armstrong.</s>BATTISTA: I've got to take a quick break here. And as we do, the question: Do you think teams with Indian nicknames should change them? Take the a TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback. Up next, Armstrong will contemplate whether Redskin is a dirty word. We'll be back.</s>BATTISTA: Live pictures of cyber control behind the scenes their with our ants taking all these e-mails that I'm about to read here. Sam say in Bangor, Maine says, "How can attaching an ethic name to a group of athletes trying to win a contest possibly be demeaning to anyone? I for one would be proud to root for a team called the Over 40 White Guys.</s>BATTISTA: Two people on the commission objected to it. What were their objections?</s>MEEKS: You know, I think mainly they were similar to Mr. Armstrong's. That they didn't think that Indians really should feel like they're insulted. And, you know, the rest of the commission disagreed with that and do believe that these names are discriminatory, and at the very least, insensitive. And while, you know, the Civil Rights Commission deeply respects the rights of all Americans to freedom of expression under the First Amendment, you know, the statement just said, "Just because you can do these things doesn't mean that you should."</s>BATTISTA: Let me get the audience in on this because they're struggling with it. Felicia, go ahead.</s>FELICIA: I agree with this gentleman. We don't know enough about these people, this tribe to say that it's not offensive. So I believe if they believe it's offensive, then the name should be changed.</s>BELLECOURT: Bobbie, the woman brings up a great point. And I hate to -- I didn't know if I was interrupting her or not. To see Americans through the process of becoming Americanized, people from different ethnic groups throughout the world, they gave up their language, their music, their dance, their identity, their culture. And often to become Americans -- and if a people don't understand themselves and the importance of a culture, they are never going to understand this. Whether it's non-Indian America or whether it's even some of our Indian leaders who have become a two-bit facsimile of the dominant white American culture. So I think she brings up a good point, that you know, if I insult somebody inadvertently and they tell me, "You know, Mr. Bellecourt, that's an insult," I would ask them why. And if they explained it to me, I would say, well -- a civilized human being would say, "I'm terribly sorry. I won't do it again." But not Mr. Armstrong and others like them. They don't know themselves, how are they going to know use?</s>WILLIAMS: Let me respond to that, for you, sir. My grandmother was a full-blooded Indian. So when someone speaks that we don't know enough about Native American history, don't ever assume what we all may have within us to bring us to where we are now. You know, I don't want you to think that I'm disrespecting you and. It's just that you and I have a different opinion here is all that it is. I don't see how you can even say that the name "Warrior" or "Brave" you can say consistently is associated with the Native American culture. I mean, anyone can be a warrior, anyone can be a brave. My issue with you is that there may be some points with what you're talking about when it relates to the Cleveland Indians and their logo as being offensive, but I just think you've gone overboard. You just want to wipe the whole slate clean. And I don't think those people are going to go for that.</s>BELLECOURT: No, no, Armstrong. No, Armstrong...</s>WILLIAMS: You're not even willing to compromise.</s>BELLECOURT: No, Armstrong. You know, first of all, our detractors always try to qualify their opposition by saying, "My great, great grandmother was a full-blood Cherokee princess." And I'm not going to question you on that...</s>WILLIAMS: You can't.</s>BELLECOURT: ... but I would hope that somebody would look into your genealogy. I think they would find it's a lot of romanticism here and that you're really misleading the viewers out there.</s>WILLIAMS: Oh, really? Oh, really.</s>BELLECOURT: But you know, If you think it's OK, if you like the Redskins, since they're predominantly great black athletes, why don't they call themselves the Washington Blackskins and have a mascots in the form of Little Black Sambo coming out and doing a jig every time they got a home run or a field goal? I don't think you would like that, and I don't understand why you would try to argue. You know, of course, people like yourself argue on the side of George Bush and arsenic, so, you know, they can always find detractors like you to come on.</s>BATTISTA: Let me back to the audience here. Tom, your thoughts on this?</s>TOM: Well, I came from a public education where when a new school was established, they had -- when they had the teams, they had to select a nickname. Well, Well, they usually went to the students, they went to the community, they went to the school board. They usually voted on this. They wanted something they would have pride in, something they could follow that give their team spirit, that they wanted to be very enthusiastic about this. They were not derogatory. They wanted to have pride in their school, and this was one of the things they felt that was very important to it.</s>BELLECOURT: Bobbie, let me comment on the gentleman's comments. You know, we have been the victims of the American holocaust. More than 16 million of us were destroyed since the coming of the pilgrims. And so that argument that this gentleman made, we know that they sincerely think that they're showing us pride and dignity and respect, but it would be as if the Nazis had won the war, wiped out the Jewish population, and then named their national soccer team the Berlin Jews and had a rabbi come out and do a little dance from time to time.</s>WILLIAMS: Oh, that's just ridiculous.</s>BELLECOURT: Don't -- doesn't he understand what we're saying here? You know, should have showed us respect years ago when they were wiping s out.</s>WILLIAMS: I don't think you understand respect, because you're so unwilling to listen to any other point of view. You're so locked in what you believe that no matter what we say, you're going to dismiss it, either call us racist, either say that we're out of touch or that we can't even relate. So why talk to you?</s>BATTISTA: You know what...</s>BELLECOURT: I think you are out of touch.</s>BATTISTA: Let me bring Elsie back in here, because there are a lot of people out there who might say with all of the problems facing our Native American population today, from health care to poverty to drugs, why dwell on this particular issue?</s>MEEKS: Well, you know, that point has been brought up to me, and that you know, I should focus on those sorts of issues, which in fact I've lived at Pine Ridge, which has been the poorest county in the nation for the last 20 years according to the census or actually number two according to the census. And so, I mean, as you know, working in economic development and many other issues, I have worked distinctively on those problems. But to bring this in, I mean, this just is an educational. It's fighting those stereotypical images that can lead the way -- clear the way to depicting Native Americans as you know, true people. That's who they are. And get away from the mythical or comical depictions that these cause. But I also want to say on this issue of you know, these schools bringing honor to Indians. You know, it's really a matter of self- representation. You know, if you're in a crowd in a school that's non-Indian and you see people out in the half-time ceremonies or in the parade, you know, dressed up like Indians, I mean, how are they going to depict Indians? And it's in a stereotypical way, because there's no other way that a non-Indian can do that.</s>BATTISTA: I've got to take a quick break here, and we'll continue in just a moment.</s>BATTISTA: Florida State University's Chief Osceola made his first appearance in 1978. Twelve different students have portrayed the chief. The clothing and the rigging Chief Osceola and his horse, Renegade, wear were designed and approved by the Seminole tribe of Florida.</s>BATTISTA: Welcome back. A couple of more e-mails. Ann in Sebastian, Florida. says, "With all the talk of reparations these days, the faintest voices are the Native Americans, a people we almost wiped out completely. If the team mascot name thing bothers them and they want it changed that badly, then we should respect them and honor that request." Dan in Avon, South Dakota says, "I live in success South Dakota and there are a number of Indian schools and they use nicknames: the Braves, Warriors and Redmen. Why should other schools be forced to change when Indian schools use the same nicknames?" Vernon?</s>BELLECOURT: It's self-descriptive. You know, a lot of our schools call themselves the Eagles, but some of our teams call themselves the Warriors, Indians, Braves, Chiefs. But it doesn't conjure up all the self-disrespect that non-Indian schools -- So I understand in the U.S., Commission on Civil Rights report that they excluded Indian-controlled schools on our reservations. But if I could comment on one of the calls, the last person, I think. You know, they raised the issue of all the other problems we're confronted with. But a recent Justice Department report on black on black, white on white, Asian on Asian, Latino on Latino crime, we don't have that problem with Indian-on-Indian crime. The problem we have is all the other groups are dumping on us, and it's basically because of the dehumanizing, demeaning aspect of Indian mascots. We're reduced to that where it becomes almost OK to dump on us. And in terms of the self-esteem of our youth and various schools, it has a direct impact on the ability to feel good about themselves, which a lot of times leads to the other social ills that confront us.</s>BATTISTA: Let me get Armstrong to respond.</s>WILLIAMS: You know, it's just so unfortunate for me that I just so vehemently disagree with Vernon. I mean, it's amazing to me. I mean, he just totally dismissed your question regarding Native American schools using these mascots. He says it's OK, because I guess because they're Native Americans, they are better able to appreciate the respect and the history and the culture. I mean, I think people would want to understand and embrace what Vernon is saying, but for me, it's a social pride. He should be honored. I mean, it's something...</s>BELLECOURT: Amazing.</s>WILLIAMS: ... where you will never forget Warriors, Braves. I mean, what more do you want? You want to just totally wipe it out.</s>BELLECOURT: We want to get rid of the Indian mascots, the demeaning, degrading depiction of our culture.</s>WILLIAMS: But it's not to me. It's all in your mind.</s>BELLECOURT: It's distortion and a stereotype. That's what we want them to do. To get rid of the names and all of the disrespectful behavior.</s>BATTISTA: Let me get a local indian activist here in the audience. And Chip, go ahead; let me get your take on this.</s>CHIP: Yes, first of all, Vernon, Clyde, Dennis, a lot of these guys come during the controversy of the Braves back during their height. None of them are down here disputing whether the Braves play good ball. They are playing good ball. However, we are teaching our children -- my wife and children and they are with the Rosebud Tribe in South Dakota and I am French- Indian. I don't get lost in that. But what I see is us trying to teach our children what these feathers, these guys -- they brought us our religious freedom. We didn't get our religious freedom until 1978. People died for that, only to have it misconstrued and mocked in painted feathers -- and Mr. Armstrong doesn't see the long jest or the long outreach of the demeaning factors that roll with this. We have tribes popping up in Georgia. He talks about his -- Mr. Armstrong about his grandmother. We don't dispute that, but now that it's become a fad with Dances with Wolves -- we have three fraudulent tribes in Georgia and it's very demeaning and it's perpetuating...</s>BATTISTA: I guess people don't understand, Armstrong, that Indian dance ceremonies are done for a purpose, usually religious. For someone to just be jumping around out there and acting like an Indian, because they want a team to win is a little bit of a misrepresentation.</s>WILLIAMS: I don't think that they think of this. When people are celebrating...</s>BATTISTA: That's the point, they are not thinking about it.</s>WILLIAMS: But it's innocent. It's harmless. Why do we try make more out of it of what it is.</s>BELLECOURT: Armstrong, was Little Black Sambo innocent?</s>WILLIAMS: No, he wasn't. Are you satisfied now?</s>BELLECOURT: How come you can't see the parallel?</s>WILLIAMS: Because there are some, but not to the extent that you are trying to make them.</s>BELLECOURT: Let me say this Bobbie, you touched on it you know the eagle feather</s>BATTISTA: I am sorry. We're completely out of time, but and our thanks to Vernon Bellecourt, Armstrong Williams, and Elsie Meeks. Thank you all very much today. In a moment, we will come up with Russell Means. You may remember him from "Last of the Mohicans." We will see where he stands right after this. Stay with us.</s>BATTISTA: Welcome back. Joining us now is Russell Means, first national director of the American Indian Movement. The actor made his film debut in the "Last of the Mohicans." His autobiography is titled, "Where White Men Fear to Tread." Russell, good to see you.</s>RUSSELL MEANS, AMERICAN INDIAN MOVEMENT: Thank you and good day to you, Bobbie.</s>BATTISTA: : Also with us is John Miller, national reporter with the "National Review"; good have you with us again.</s>JOHN MILLER, "NATIONAL REVIEW": Thank you.</s>BATTISTA: All right, Russell. Let me get your take on what you think is offensive and disrespectful about these mascot and nicknames.</s>MEANS: First, in answer to the last question that you posed to Vernon and Armstrong didn't like. Those names that Indian teams have on Indian reservations came during our real heavy colonial time when the Bureau of Indian Affairs named our teams and we hadn't a choice at the time. Those names have continued. My principle concerns are two things: our children, and the hate -- speech and hate crimes that mascots and Indian sports names engender. First of all, my daughter, seven years ago, was honored by the National Education Association in Washington, D.C. for her activism when she was in the ah grade in South Dakota, changing the name of the local junior high school from Warriors to something else. Now, this is in the state of South Dakota, the most racist state in the union. And if they can do it, certainly Armstrong can show a little respect.</s>BATTISTA: What -- can you give us an example of how you think it fosters racism?</s>MEANS: Yes. I have been at numerous campuses and all the way back into the '70s, when I first brought a lawsuit against the Cleveland Indians baseball team for their derogatory mascot, Chief Wahoo. Now, what happens is that fraternities and sororities of the opponents put out racist T-shirts. For example -- this is just one of many things. They hate speech, they hate yelling. The tomahawk chop has become a racist, obscene gesture in the state of South Dakota. Cowboys now, and peoples that hate us when they ride by us, they do the tomahawk chop instead of flipping us the bird. Now, what the teams engendered, like a T-shirt at the University of North Dakota or at University of Illinois, T-shirts from other colleges when they come to play or when the visiting team happens to be the Chiefs or the Fighting Sioux. They have depictions on their T- shirts of cartoon Indians being fornicated by the opponents' mascot. They -- at University of North Dakota, their own team which is called the Fighting Sioux, have cartoon figures of an Indian sitting on a toilet saying, "our injun is toilet-trained." This is the type of racism and hate speech that causes Indian students' cars to be destroyed and to be attacked by whites and blacks.</s>BATTISTA: John, from what Russell is saying here, it isn't necessarily always a case of honor and dignity when these nicknames and mascots are used then.</s>MILLER: Well, we have heard several people on this program say they are troubled by names and mascots and I think their views are authentic. But they have also claimed to speak on behalf of all American Indians, when in fact they do not. Armstrong Williams said his grandmother was full blooded Indian, and yet, he has a disagreement. The Commission on Civil Rights came out and said, all Indians find these symbols offensive. And in fact, that is simply not the case. I think the Florida state example is an important one here, where the Seminole tribe in the state of Florida officially, through their chief, through their elected representatives, think this is a positive relationship they have with the university. They work with designing the costume of Chief Osceola. They have a very good relationship, and you can find this again and again and again. It happens at Central Michigan University, it happens at high schools around the country, where you have examples of tribes and schools working together for mutual benefit.</s>BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call from Sharon in South Dakota. Sharon, go ahead.</s>CALLER: Yes, I would just like to say that while this may be a problem for them, with all the other problems that the Native Americans have on the reservation and off the reservation, I don't know why they prioritize this and make it first. Why aren't they worrying about some of things that you mentioned before, health and education and so forth, instead of wasting time with this first?</s>BATTISTA: Russell?</s>MEANS: First of all, ignorance is what causes racism. Indian nicknames, Indian sports teams continue the stereotype. Therefore that helps the policy makers in Washington, D.C. and elsewhere to continue with their failed policies of socialism on the Indian reservations and in the Indian neighborhoods. And with this failed policies, we continue with this innate institutionalized racism that America has toward the American Indian. So it is a very important issue, ignorance.</s>BATTISTA: I have to take a quick break, here, and we're go to the audience when we come back.</s>BATTISTA: In 1999 the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office opted not to renew trademark protection for the Washington Redskins. A panel decided renewal would violate the 1946 Federal Lanham Act, which states that no trademark shall be registered "which may disparage" people, institutions, beliefs, or national symbols, "or bring them into contempt or disrepute." All right, let me go to the audience here. We had a whole discussion going on here, and it's still going on, girls, so let me interrupt. Who wants to go first?</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just saying that -- well, earlier before she said that everyone has come from some time of persecution. But that's my point. If you come from persecution, how can you persecute them? You become what someone else was. So you're sitting here depicting -- you're sitting here saying: "Well, I came from something and I had some problems." Well, now you should understand why they don't like that. Why the Indians do not like being called -- you know, they don't like to be called "redskins." It's not appropriate.</s>BATTISTA: And Lauren, you think it goes too far.</s>LAUREN: I'm not saying -- I understand, like I said before, with the redskins, and I understand there has to be a line drawn. But as far as, let's say, calling someone by a tribe, like a Pawnee, a Kickapoo, a Seminole -- things like that, why are they so wrong? And as I said before, that most ethnic groups that come to America suffer some sort of injustice at some point. Take, for example, the Irish, where it's most -- people in this audience, for instance, are white -- the fighting Irish of Notre Dame. Let's remember Nina from the beginning, turn of the century, with "No Irish Need Apply." I mean, everyone's been persecuted. And I know that you think -- or, it's your opinion that just because you're been persecuted doesn't mean that you should persecute other people, but I don't think that a lot of people are persecuting other people. They just -- they don't see it as that opinion. They don't see it as harmful, you know? It's, like I said, out of -- I don't know, they're just uneducated, I assume.</s>BATTISTA: John, let's get you back in here.</s>MILLER: Well, I agree entirely with that last response. If we take this claim to its logical extent, we'd have to rename half the states in our union. We'd have to rename cities like Milwaukee and Chicago and Miami, that derive from Indian names. There's a series of army helicopters called the Apache, the Comanche, the Blackhawk, the Kiowa. There are consumer products, the Jeep Cherokee, the Dodge Dakota, Winnebago, and on and on and on. We'd have to rename all of these things, and I think that these are things people can take pride in. We mentioned the fighting Irish of Notre Dame. I married into an Irish-American family and none of them went to Notre Dame, but they're all huge fans of it. They take great pride in it, even though the school has this ridiculous leprechaun mascot.</s>BATTISTA: I thought you were going to say they were all fighters.</s>MILLER: I won't comment on that, but we can find examples of this again and again. Someone in the top half of the hour mentioned Catholics objecting to a team call the Popes. Well, there's a team called the New Orleans Saints. There's a team called the San Diego Padres. I've never heard Hispanic Catholics complain about that. I'm a Catholic myself, and I don't find a particular problem with this. But I will say we can draw lines. I do think a team name like Washington Redskins perhaps does cross the line. And you the example of a school like the University of Miami in Ohio, which called itselves the Redskins, recently changing its name to the Redhawks. I think that's appropriate. We should also look to examples like Florida State University working with the Seminoles. Central Michigan University working with the Chippewa. There are high schools that work with individual tribes, and have tribal members come down for special educational days. And we should look at these as opportunities for education, not as opportunities to antagonize well-meaning people.</s>BATTISTA: Russell, are there parameters for you, or is there room for compromise?</s>MEANS: I see no room for compromise because I'm not politically correct. Now, understand, you can bring up the Padres. It's not an ethnic group, and you can make exceptions to every rule. But every exception proves the rule. And that goes for the fighting Irish. Now, when I see children -- my grandchildren, for instance, and I see Indian children in Los Angeles, when I see Indian children in state of New York being hurt by these mascots and their demeaning stereotypes -- and to see these ridiculous people show up at games with paint all over their faces, and stupid colored feathers all over, that is demeaning. I'm sorry. You don't see people showing up like fighting Irish at the Notre Dame games. It is not perpetuating and engendering hate crimes and hate speech, and that's what this does. I can see it and name the people on the University of North Dakota campus, for instance, that have suffered physically from beatings, and their cars have been wrecked because of this issue.</s>BATTISTA: Let me do a couple of e-mails. Josh in Clemson, South Carolina, says: "I don't really see how names like the Braves and the Chiefs are any more offensive than names like the Minutemen or the Patriots. They both represent the history and the heritage of something." Caleb, in Boca Raton, Florida, says: "Though I am part Native American, what the general American populace must understand is that it is not the names that are offensive, but the way in which they're used. The cartoon-like depictions used in many sports team mascots really rails against the very basic tenants of pride, respect, and nobility that I have been taught by my family and my elders. In my opinion, the vast majority of American people have not been sufficiently exposed to the real heritage and the way of life of Native Americans." We'll be back in just a moment.</s>BATTISTA: Let's check on-line viewer vote. Now, the question today was: Should schools change their team names? 35 percent of you are registering yes, and 65 percent are saying no. I think it's interesting that in the last few minutes I'm getting a lot of e-mails from Native American students, a lot of them, and there does not seem to be one voice on this. Russell, I know -- I'm sure that's of a concern to you, but I'm not sure how that factors into your pursuit of this.</s>MEANS: All I want to say is this: If the American people will not change racist stereotypical names and mascots, then when are they going to get rid of the Bureau of Indian Affairs? It'll never happen until this small issue, which is really a large issue of ignorance, is faced and met. We need to get rid of the Bureau of Indian Affairs.</s>BATTISTA: All right. I think we have to go, we don't have any more time, I'm sorry. But, Russell Means and John Miller, thank you both very much for joining us. We appreciate all the insight into this today. And we're be back tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern for more TALKBACK LIVE. Please join us then.