Can Yasser Arafat Stop Terrorist Violence?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Public anger here is intense, not just at the Israelis, but at the Palestinian Authority itself. And as their crackdown continues on groups like Hamas, more frustration and more bitterness is spilling out on the Palestinian streets.</s>ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): And these are the streets that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat must control. The unrest comes after international pressure on the Palestinians to take action against the militants. But in the West Bank, disagreements and challenges to Yasser Arafat's authority.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arafat doesn't control each and every Palestinian in this territory. The Israelis have been in this place for more than 35 years now, and they have never been able to control the situation.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It's out of his hand. If I want to carry out a suicide attack, will I consult with Yasser Arafat? No, Arafat can't stop me.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They want him to put half of Palestinian in prison and kill the other half.</s>VERJEE: Challenges, as well, from Israel, this time with weapons. On this edition of</s>Q&A;: Can Yasser Arafat weather this latest storm?</s>VERJEE: Welcome to Q&A.; I am Zain Verjee. Jim Clancy is on assignment in Kabul. Tonight, a look at the position Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat finds himself. U.S. Envoy Anthony Zinni convened a three-way security meeting on Friday. It included top Israeli and Palestinian officials in an effort to quell the latest violence. But as CNN's Matthew Chance reports, there is an uneasy backdrop to those talks.</s>MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hamas is burying its latest dead, but this is no suicide martyr. Mohammad Silmi (ph), just 20, was shot in a clash with Palestinian Authority security forces who've been protesting against the house arrest of the Hamas leader. Now, grief here is turning to anger. The stones are being thrown at the institutions Hamas and their sympathizers hold responsible. The Palestinian Authority, they say, should keep its bullets for Israel. The Hamas members, their identities concealed, are calling on Yasser Arafat to set free the hundred or so militants he's already detained. "Our people cannot move," he told me. "We call on all our brothers to end the arrests. We should all be united as Palestinians," he says. And Israeli air strikes. These blasts in Gaza early Friday morning are raising tensions even further. Israel says the police buildings it razed here were used to make bombs. Seventeen people were injured. But officers I spoke to at the scene told me only their kitchen and dormitory had been reduced to rubble. "We asked God, let the world feel what is happening to us," he says. "We will never leave our land. We will fight until our bones are old." Back at the funeral, Mohammed Silmi (ph) is kissed for the last time by his friends. But after this day the Palestinians he leaves behind may be more bitterly divided than when he lived. Matthew Chance, CNN, Gaza.</s>VERJEE: Joining us now from Washington, Robert Satloff with the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and Mark Perry of "Palestine Report". But first, joining us on the line from Jerusalem, Raanan Gissin, a senior spokesman for the Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Mr. Gissin, how are you seeing what's going on in the Palestinian territories?</s>RAANAN GISSIN, SENIOR SPOKESMAN FOR SHARON: You know, it seems quite ludicrous right now that there is this sequel to save willy (sic). This is like a campaign to save Arafat. You know, the real problem there is that Arafat needs to be saved for himself. Otherwise, I can't understand why some of the senior officials and senior security members of his forces were phoning and urging Secretary of State Powell to put pressure on Arafat to force him to take action, because this is a moment of truth, and he is losing that moment.</s>VERJEE: What do you think of Arafat's leadership?</s>GISSIN: Well, you know, the fate of the Palestinian people and the fate of Arafat is in his hands. You know, the prime minister of Israel, Mr. Ariel Sharon, said it very clearly that, you know, we don't intent to hurt Mr. Arafat. We are not after his hide. But Arafat is doing himself in. It's as simple as that. This is his opportunity to really lead his people on the freedom train, on the peace train. But if he doesn't lead them in that direction, he's going to find himself under the wheels of that train.</s>VERJEE: You say that you don't want to hurt Arafat's position, but everything that you are doing is actually undermining his position, isn't it?</s>GISSIN: Well, look, he has to make a decision. He has to make a decision to drop the strategy of terror that he adopted 14 months ago in which -- this strategy has claimed the life of over 230 Israelis, and there have been over 10,000 terrorist attacks. He created the largest terrorist coalition from the Middle East to Kabul. And he harbors those terrorist groups, which, just to remind you, President Bush has just reiterated in his speech...</s>VERJEE: Mr. Gissin, you are not answering my question. What Israel is doing is weakening and undermining Yasser Arafat's authority, so he can't crackdown on terrorist groups, as you call them. Isn't that what's going on?</s>GISSIN: No. You see -- again, you are making the same error of trying to find excuses and to find justification for his action. Terrorism is terrorism. He has to understand. After September 9 (sic), the line has been drawn. Either you're against terrorism, and then you take all the measures against it and you are with the people who fight against terrorism, or you're for it. These people that we stopped today in the village of Adik were not militants. They were terrorists, out there with suicide bombs to kill innocent children, men, women in Israel. They have a suicide factory bombed in Janin that he can stop, he can dismantle. He hasn't done anything. He has to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure, which he promised to do. He doesn't do it. He promised peace of the brave to late Prime Minister Rabin and signed a letter in which he says he will renounce, forever, terrorism and take care of all the terrorist groups. And he hasn't done that. He has not...</s>VERJEE: But he is cracking down on militants, more than a hundred of them have been arrested.</s>GISSIN: You see, these are televised arrests. He doesn't arrest the people who are perpetrating the actions. He got the names and addresses of people. He said he arrested 10 people out of the list of 33. But as long as we continue to have those high alerts and ticking bombs moving into our towns and villages, and luckily, we were able to stop them ourselves. But if he doesn't take the necessary action to really dismantle the terrorist infrastructure, not just arrest -- these arrests are not to satisfy CNN or to satisfy the United States government. He has to satisfy the Israeli mothers and fathers who are now mourning their children. He promised peace of the brave in 1993. And in 2001, he gave us peace of the grave.</s>VERJEE: Mr. Gissin, let's have a listen to what Yasser Arafat actually had to say today.</s>YASSER ARAFAT, PRESIDENT OF PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY (through translator): I didn't get any list -- only the list from General Anthony Zinni that contained 33 names. I arrested seven. By chance, we found we had already arrested seven people. But until now, we have arrested half of the people on the list, which means we have arrested 10 more, which means we have arrested 17 of the 33 people named. If you want to see them, I will take you to see 13 of them now, here.</s>VERJEE: Mr. Gissin, you keep complaining Yasser Arafat has not arrested the right people. But he received a list from Anthony Zinni saying, "Here, arrest these people." And Arafat says, "I have already got most of them here with me." I mean, isn't he doing something the Israelis want?</s>GISSIN: Yes, he is doing something, but he is not doing the right thing. He is not doing what he's supposed to do. And he didn't get just one list from Zinni. He got several lists from our security people. He got a list from Omri Sharon, the son of Ariel Sharon. He handed it to him personally. And he knows exactly who he has to arrest. He tries to refrain from doing what he's supposed to do...</s>VERJEE: But Mr. Gissin...</s>GISSIN: ... hoping to hold the stick from both sides.</s>VERJEE: Mr. Gissin, can you appreciate the fact that the attacks on Yasser Arafat's symbols of authority, the attacks in Palestinian territories by Israel, has made Yasser Arafat's position more difficult to crack down on the very militants and deal with the other issues you want dealt with? Can you appreciate the position you've put him in?</s>GISSIN: On the contrary, for 30 years of history, Mr. Arafat -- it was only when he was under pressure -- now he is under pressure from the United States and from Israeli military action -- that he took action. Why didn't he take action two months ago, three months ago? Why didn't he take action 10 days ago and avoid the death of 33 innocent children, men and women and 230 other wounded in the suicide bombing? Why? Why does he take action only after the fact? I mean, either you fight against terrorism or you are with the terrorist groups. Either you bring them to justice or you force us to bring justice to them, and that's what we are engaged right now. We are defending our citizens. We are doing the same thing that the United States is doing in Afghanistan. We're defending our citizens against this unmitigated wave of terrorism launched from the Palestinian Authority, which is harboring terrorists. And those who harbor terrorists, you know, President Bush said it quite clearly, the day of reckoning will come to them. So he has to make a choice now. There is no more time to play around, to fool around. You can't fool the world today. It's a different world out there. That's what Mr. Arafat must understand and so must his people. He has to be brave enough to face his people and tell them, "Look, the age of using terrorism has ended. Now, we can only use what I promised, and that is face-to-face negotiations. Sit down with the Israelis and try to work out the difficult decision." We're ready for that but he has to...</s>VERJEE: Raanan Gissin, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you for your time, appreciate that. Let's bring in Robert Satloff and Mark Perry with us right now. You both heard what Raanan Gissin had to say, saying that Arafat has to make a choice. He can't fool around any more. Robert, has Arafat been fooling around?</s>ROBERT SATLOFF, INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY: Well, I think there is no doubt, a prima facie, if he is only now arresting people that are bombers, then we know that for the previous period of time, he hasn't been exerting 100 percent effort. I think there is no debate that he hasn't been using the full resources of the Palestinian Authority to fight terrorism wherever they can find it. It is absolutely true that only under pressure, when he is given no other recourse, does Arafat begin to use the resources of the state against him. And I think right now, we are seeing, perhaps, an unprecedented amount of pressure on him, and it is beginning to show some results. But I think that as far as the U.S. government is concerned, to the best of my understanding, it is still wholly insufficient in terms of his effort against terrorism.</s>VERJEE: Mark Perry, Yasser Arafat has a dilemma here though, doesn't he? I mean, he is sort of caught between a rock and a hard place. What does he do to appease the Palestinian people or the international community, the U.S. and Israel?</s>MARK PERRY, "PALESTINE REPORT": Well, if you are the leader of Hamas here, you are here in a pretty good spot because you know that if you bomb Israelis and you kill Israelis, that the Israel government will respond against Arafat, your enemy, and the only person who can legitimately keep you from setting off bombs. This policy of Ariel Sharon has been very counterproductive. It's been in place for the last year. It's placed unprecedented amounts of pressure on the Palestinian people and they are responding. Mr. Arafat is walking a very delicate line. I think he's made decisive moves against terrorists. He has made decisive moves against Hamas. But he needs time. He needs some understanding and he needs to be able to provide his people with some incentives to give them hope for the future, that their land will stop being occupied, their houses demolished, their orchards uprooted. And right now, there is no light at the end of that tunnel.</s>VERJEE: Mark Perry, Robert Satloff, we will come back and continue our conversation with you in a moment. When we return, other pressures on the Palestinian leadership.</s>COLIN POWELL, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I have noticed in the last 24 hours that there have been more arrests, there have been other activities on his part. That's promising, but I think more is required. I recognize that he is having some difficulties with those organizations who resist his authority. The very fact that they are resisting in his authority makes it that much more important for him to apply that authority.</s>VERJEE: Welcome back. With us to discuss the latest developments in the Middle East and where they leave Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat is Robert Satloff, with the Washington Institute for Near East Policy; and Mark Perry of "Palestine Report". But first, on the phone from the West Bank, Palestinian legislator Hanan Ashrawi. Hanan Ashrawi, the leader of Hamas was put under house arrest. There were protests. Palestinian security fired at Hamas supporters. One person was also killed. Is that a precursor of what could happen?</s>HANAN ASHRAWI, PALESTINIAN LEGISLATOR: I certainly hope not, because I think if this situation escalates, then we will end up degenerating into a civil war. But I think the Palestinians are aware of the gravity of the situation. We have always had a pluralistic political system. We have always had opposition, and it would be tragic if we end up with internal strife and civil wars. And I think that there are limits beyond which you cannot push any leader in facing his own people. Right now, the Palestinian police is being shelled. Their headquarters are being shelled. Many have been assassinated. They are all in a state of siege. They cannot move from one place to the other. And yet, they are asked to turn against their own people and to arrest those Palestinians who themselves are besieged and shelled.</s>VERJEE: Where does this leave Yasser Arafat?</s>ASHRAWI: It leaves him in a very, very difficult situation. It is not only ironic, but it is tragic and painful that at one point, the measure, right now, of Arafat's effectiveness -- as I've been listening to this discourse -- has been based on the Israeli framework, the Israeli definitions of legitimacy, and not just any Israeli definition, but the extreme right wing, anti-peace government in Israel that wants to destroy every chance of peace. And that has focused on Arafat, on the Palestinian Authority and on the Palestinian people. In a way, that would make it impossible for Arafat to move. I mean he has both hands tied behind his back and he is being arrogantly asked to deliver security to the Israelis when his own people under occupation, besieged and assassinated and killed and so on are being dehumanized, have no security whatsoever and he is incapable of protecting them in any way, shape or form.</s>VERJEE: But, Ms. Ashrawi, the Israelis are saying that Yasser Arafat is arresting militants but he is not arresting the right ones. He should have done all of this a long time ago and shouldn't have waited until now, because he is part responsible for creating this situation.</s>ASHRAWI: I think those who've created this situation are the Israelis themselves, their army, the government, the people who end up driving Palestinians to desperation. But, anyway, they've encouraged extremism because, as you know, extremism on one side and ideological absolutism on one side encourages that on the other as the proper response. However, to get out of this, I think -- yes, there have been mistakes among the Palestinians. We should have had a more democratic system. We should have been able to deal with the challenges presented by Israel in a better way. But at the same time, you cannot find a convenient scapegoat and say Arafat has to arrest everybody, arrest the opposition, comply with Israeli wishes, wills and demands, and then he will prove that he is legitimate. They don't understand his legitimacy comes from his people, not from the Israelis.</s>VERJEE: Has Yasser Arafat actually delivered anything to the Palestinian people?</s>ASHRAWI: Well, right now at this point, I think he is caught in a historical and tragic trap. Of course, he has delivered. Historically, he has been a leader. He is a national symbol and so on. But right now, he is in a very difficult position. I would like to see the Israelis do the same thing. If there is accountability, then why don't the Israelis arrest the settlers who've been killing Palestinians in cold blood? Why don't they arrest the people who have been assassinating Palestinians including the army? Why don't they arrest the soldiers who are snipers and who are sniping at unarmed men, women and children under siege and under occupation? If there is to be accountability, if terrorism is targeting innocent civilians, then I think it cuts both ways. But I think it's the occupying power that is more to blame than the people who are reacting to an intolerable situation, and who's leadership is being held accountable for what the opposition does to Israel when they are driven beyond endurance.</s>VERJEE: Hanan Ashrawi, thanks for speaking to us on Q&A;, appreciate that. Robert Satloff, let me ask you this: Is it just a matter of time before Arafat falls and Hamas takes power?</s>SATLOFF: No. I think that the idea that Hamas is waiting in the wings to take power when Arafat leaves the scene is a canard and it's absolutely not the case. The reality is that there are 40,000 or so armed forces under the control of the Palestinian Authority. At most, estimates are that there was one or two thousand armed men of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The overwhelming power is in the hands of Arafat's Palestinian Authority. Should he decide to use it, this would be over very quickly. And if he were to leave the scene tomorrow, then his political and military heirs would inherit, not Hamas. They don't have the power. And in the end in the Middle East it's who has the gun...</s>VERJEE: But they have the support. They reportedly have more support than Arafat does.</s>SATLOFF: No, this is -- the key variable is what Arafat does. If Arafat decides to lead, he will receive political compensation, he will receive gains for it. What has happened in the last year is that Arafat has seeded the field to the radicals, and therefore, his popularity has decreased. If Arafat leads, he will receive political gains, and his popularity will increase. Hamas is a constant. The variable is what Arafat does and doesn't do with the authority that he has in his hands.</s>VERJEE: Mark Perry, you agree?</s>PERRY: Not at all. It's very clear to me that what has seeded the ground here for the growth of terrorism is the continued occupation of the Palestinian territories. We are in an unprecedented situation here. We have a democracy, which is what Palestine is. Mr. Arafat is the duly elected leader of the Palestinian people. There is a legislature in place. We can't have incendiary and inflammatory talk about removing him at the drop of a hat just because somebody doesn't agree with his leadership. He is the duly elected leader. He should be given a chance to work for peace, and his people should be given hope. The ground that is seeded here with terrorists has been seeded by Israel's continued occupation of the occupied territory and the loss of their homes, and it's as simple as that. We want peace in the Middle East, we have to return to the peace process.</s>VERJEE: Mark, could there be a civil war in the Palestinian territories?</s>PERRY: I think it's unlikely. Clearly, there are real troubles there. Mr. Arafat has to take some decisive moves. But I talked to the Palestinian leadership less than an hour ago, and they called Mr. Arafat the indispensable man, and I think most Palestinians agree with that.</s>VERJEE: Robert, has Israel given up on Yasser Arafat?</s>SATLOFF: It's not a question of Israel giving up on Yasser Arafat. It's a question of whether Yasser Arafat is going to play a leadership role in the pursuit of peace? The idea that he is indispensable is really quite remarkable. We've had five Israeli prime ministers since 1993. We've had one Yasser Arafat. No person is indispensable if they are to this process, that's absurd. Peace needs to be between people, between institutions. Yasser Arafat can come and go, and the pursuit of peace will exist if indeed, there are large majorities on either side that pursue it. We need to try to build institutions. The idea that the Palestinian Authority is a democracy, I am sure, would be a huge surprise to the large majority of Palestinians. It is an authoritarian regime just like many of the authoritarian regimes in the Arab world. And if Arafat goes, there will be a successor that will come and emerge in his place. It will not be Hamas. It will be people from within Arafat's own mix.</s>PERRY: Yitzhak Rabin disagreed with this. Yitzhak Rabin believed that Mr. Arafat was an indispensable leader and a person who could deliver peace. What we've had, that's changed in the Middle East, is a shift over the last year in Israeli tactics towards the Palestinians. Israel is less secure now than ever before. And we've had one year of Ariel Sharon's prime ministry and it's not working. There has to be a shift. Mr. Sharon has to approach Mr. Arafat, make him a partner for peace against the extremists, just like Yitzhak Rabin did. If he does that, then there is some hope we could have a more stable future.</s>VERJEE: Gentlemen, thank you so much for being with us. It's good to have a chat with you on Q&A;, thanks. Just before we go, here's another look at this week's quick vote. We asked who you thought was the stumbling block to peace in the Middle East, and you told us it was Ariel Sharon. That's all for this edition of Q&A.; The news is next here on CNN. END TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com