Hostage Standoff Near Paris Airport; Second Standoff Underway With Terrorist In Paris
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: There are school kids at play here, it is a school day. We hear they are being evacuated as they can. This is just a few miles from Charles De Galle Airport. Different flights have been diverted, things have been delayed. That's somewhat irrelevant. There's no direct threat to the airport at this time, at least none that has been communicated to us. So that's where we are right now. We have Fred Pleitgen on the ground, on the scene where the standoff is going on right now. Fred, what's the latest?</s>FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Chris. I was able to speak to the mayor of this town just a couple of minutes ago and he told me that at this point this appears to be as you've noted already, a waiting game and the police are saying that they are not taking this fast by any way, shape or form. I asked them when do you think we'll get any information? He says, I absolutely don't know. He said it could take into the night. He said it could take until tomorrow. He said at this point in time what's going on is that there are negotiations going on. Certainly the police do not appear as though it's willing to make any erratic or fast moves. One of the other things the mayor said is that the town is in complete lockdown. In fact, right behind me, you're not going to be able to see it, because it's behind me, there's a school here that has all of the children in it and the children seem to still be quite good spirits, they keep screaming "Charlie, Charlie" out of the windows down at us and clapping every time we give them a thumb's up back. So people are actually locked down in schools, children locked down in schools and people have been ordered to stay inside their houses. It appears as most people are following those orders, but not all the people are following the orders, we are seeing people still walking around here. The actual area where all of this is taking place, Chris, is about 400 to 500 yards in that direction. This is what one of the local officials here has described to me as a local print shop. He says it's a place you get business cards, a place you print flyers, a place you print little magazines as well. He said most people here in this town know the folks who work there. He didn't know who exactly the hostage might be, that these two suspects are apparently still holding. What happened here is that at around 10:00 a.m., people who lived in the town here started hearing helicopters overhead. They start hearing a massive amount of police vehicles here and that's when the cordon operation started. Right now, the siege is still going on, but there's police leaving those vehicles, that's what we've seen been seeing a lot of. We've been seeing them secure the perimeter. We've been seeing cops going out into the streets probably also wanting to calm the people down who live there. As you can see it's a very calm scene over there as these police vehicles that have just arrived there. That's what we're seeing around the area here and so at this point in time, it really is a waiting game as you've said, possibly fatigue of the two suspects is something that the police hopes will aid them in their operations. But it certainly seems there's more and more of a police presence moving into this area as we wait here for things to unfold.</s>CUOMO: All right, Fred, we do hear that all the colors are in place and that is code from the French authorities that they have different units or in different colors, the medical teams, the different types of assets in place so that they're ready for any contingency. That's the good news. However, there is new information. There was another shooting yesterday. You'll remember a female police officer unarmed killed by someone else, similarly dressed, we are told, to the two terrorists here at "Charlie Hebdo's" offices. That shooter is still at large. We now understand it is a developing situation. That that suspect has been engaged. Let's get the latest from our team of greats here, Jim, what are we hearing?</s>JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: The latest information, and always with the caution that this has been a constantly changing situation, police have not 100 percent confirmed this. But they believe that the shooter in Montrouge, this is the second shooting that took place yesterday is now holed up in a kosher shop in Port Du Vincent. That's another town just outside of Paris and that police are now saying there's a link between the two shooters, who carried out the "Charlie Hebdo" attack here and that second attack that killed a female police officer yesterday and they now believed that this shooter has been located. He has his own hostage situation. So just imagine that situation in U.S. terms, you have two hostage situations taking place at the same time, very close to Paris with the possibility of hostages.</s>CUOMO: If not related, equally dangerous, requiring equal assets from French authorities so they're going to be spread thin quickly here because they thought they were only dealing with one. Now, this not speculation, but this understanding that they may be related, comes with cause. The two main suspects, communicated to someone when commandeering his vehicle, we are AQAP, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. Let people know that. This other person that they're hearing, there's cause, Hala, to believe that they, too, identify themselves that way. What do we know?</s>HALA GORANI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I was just looking at the map to let all of our viewers know, vis-a-vis where we're standing, where this reported hostage situation is taking place, we are hearing actually police van drive by with their sirens blazing, 15-minute drive away from where we are approximately to the east. This is apparently an ongoing situation. You were mentioning, Chris, that the Montrouge, suspected Montrouge shooter may be the person that is currently holding potentially a hostage and we're hearing perhaps reports of even a person wounded east of Paris, in this kosher shop. This will paint a picture of several days of each day a situation where there's been either a shooting or a hostage-taking three days in a row and a response from authorities in this country that is actually surreal when you look at some of the countryside, the sleepy villages north of Paris with a few thousand inhabitants, with full combat gear, soldiers going door to door trying to find these suspected assailants.</s>SCIUTTO: We've been asked this many times, saying what is the mood here in Paris? It feels like the city is functioning. We have a number of people coming here very calmly going to the memorial for the "Charlie Hebdo" shooting as we drove here this morning. Traffic is running. You do hear police. This is a city you know despite having two hostage situations under way at the same time, it's not a city that is shut down remarkably.</s>CUOMO: Sometimes ignorance though is bliss and you don't know what's going on around you. Maybe you're at work or otherwise, but what really matters is the urgency of the situation. Jim Bitterman, this understanding that maybe there is a terror cell at work here. There is somebody who was trying to take disenfranchised youths from a more impoverished area here of Muslims, that he was using soccer and that all of these shooters may have come out of it. Explain.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was this club, it was kind of a, began as a soccer club, called the Boot Du Chemin Club and the younger of the two brothers holed up in northeastern France in fact was a member of that. The others we don't know exactly what the connections are and which one, which people were in there. There were a number of people from that group that French police do know went off and were radicalized. And one way or another, they either were radicalized here because of its one local imam that no longer I think he's dead now. But in any case, they have this intimate connection from childhood. That you know in France, you know those kind of relations stick for a lifetime.</s>CUOMO: We're getting confirmation, Hala, that you're right, the situation is happening somewhat east of here, within striking distance of where we are right now. Jim, best use of time is probably for you to head there, please be safe. Let us know, get on the phone with me, Jim Bitterman is going to go to where we believe the hostage standoff is taking place, again not related to what happened here, at "Charlie Hebdo" directly. However there was another shooting, a random traffic standpoint. A police officer directing traffic, a man similarly dressed to the terrorists here opened fire. Shot two officers, killed a female officer there. He has been missing until then or the shooter, he or she has been missing. They now believe it is a male actually, Hala, he may have taken a hostage and there may be active engagement with him by French authorities, Jim Bitterman is off to that. Now the understanding whether it's related or not, it doesn't really matter tactically to authorities in terms of addressing the situations right now, there's no reason to believe there's coordination between the different shooters at this point.</s>HALA GORANI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It does matter, we've had this curiosity about where is the third assailant from the Thursday attack at "Charlie Hebdo," initially thought it was a 19-year-old who turned himself in the same day who claims he was not involved at all. Is there a possible connection? Is it possible the shooter now carrying out a hostage attack to the east of here, was he the third person? So that's, because it's been this open question, where is that third assailant. Are they still out there? Do they pose a threat? Is this the same guy?</s>GORANI: It appears as though the 18-year-old whose name was circulated and who voluntarily turned himself in after some of his schoolmates tweeted out, everything on social media with teenagers in this case tweeting out. No, he was in class with me at you know, 11:30. He couldn't have been one of the guys.</s>CUOMO: A suggestion that's only good as its corroboration. The kosher shop, is that what it sounds like, a place where they have blessed food, a Jewish grocery store?</s>GORANI: It seems like it. It's a 15-minute drive east of here. You have the shops peppered throughout Paris. It could be one of those. And the understanding from reports, that there is an ongoing hostage situation there in that shop. And it could be linked -- the suspect in this case could be the same individual who is suspected from having shot and killed the policewoman yesterday.</s>CUOMO: You're hearing what it sounds like. There's a police vehicle going by right now. It is heading east. Maybe it is going in that area again. The French authorities tend to flood the zone. Not unlike as we do in the U.S. and in the U.K., you try to get as many assets as possible, especially in urban areas when you can. Because it clogs the area and what they saw yesterday was very good proof of why you need it because in an urban area, if there's any chance to get away, you want to try to seal it off.</s>GORANI: Exactly, Chris. This is very different from an industrial park outside of Paris. This is a very densed populated area in the French capital and you have to take every precaution to protect private citizens.</s>CUOMO: Big question, Jim, is going to be how did the shooter wind up being pinned in a kosher shop? I mean, that means that they must have felt confident enough to be moving about the population.</s>SCIUTTO: And kosher shop, was it a target of opportunity or was this something planned? Was this part of the plan initially? When the shooting took place yesterday, one of our terror reporters at CNN made the point that just a few 100 feet away was a Jewish school. Just a possible connection, we don't know that was he looking for targets? Did he have a plan in mind? But I think it also gets to a broader question here. Listen, you don't want to question the Paris police response, the French police response, they are, as you say, flooding the zone, but they've been scrambling a bit here. First to find assailants behind the "Charlie Hebdo" shooting going from town to town, I was filing them yesterday. They seemed to believe they were in one town and they were in the next town, and they were in the forest. Now they are north of Paris to the Charles De Gaulle Airport. This other shooter yesterday, they really didn't at least publicly have a handle on where he was and now he turns up in another hostage situation here, it shows the real challenge of tracking these guys down in a major urban area.</s>CUOMO: But for one of the shooters leaving one of the terrorists leaving his identification in a vehicle. Now I know there's been speculation that that was on purpose. That was calling card. I've seen nothing to suggest that there was any intelligence behind him leaving his identification. But if they haven't done that, is there any reason to believe that they would be anywhere in the investigation right now. Not as criticism, but just the reality of the difficulties.</s>GORANI: Right. Well, that certainly was a help to the investigators and police authorities in order to track them down. I wanted to also bring to our viewers one thing, Chris, and that is that the interior ministry is saying the priority in the situation in, I said Dammartin- En-Goele, a very long --</s>CUOMO: This is the industrial park.</s>GORANI: The industrial park is to establish dialogue, the priority is to establish with the extremist gunmen. This is accord to the Interior Ministry, and that there have been no dead or injured in that situation. And there have been reports floating out there that had been an injury and they're denying that.</s>SCIUTTO: There is a team that you want on a hostage negotiation like this in France is the GIGN. They're experienced in this establishing contact to try to defuse the situation.</s>CUOMO: Remind us of the 1994 situation.</s>SCIUTTO: Exactly where they successfully defused a hostage-taking, rather a hijacking of an airliner in Southern France.</s>CUOMO: Again, if you're joining us just now, there's a lot of emerging detail, right here. This is a very fluid situation. When we're saying GIGN, it's an acronym that is not worth explaining or beyond my French capabilities to do so. But they are the elite S.W.A.T. team. It is a military outfit. They are controlling the situation in an industrial park northeast of Paris. That's where the two suspected terrorists are from the "Charlie Hebdo" office shootings. There is another active situation, from a second shooting that had happened, where a female police officer was killed, yesterday. That shooter has been identified, and now there's a potential hostage situation just east of where we are right now.</s>SCIUTTO: We now have the name of this shop, this kosher shop where he's apparently holed up. It's called hyper cache, cache meaning kosher in French. It's in Porte De Vincent, which is about 15 minutes from here.</s>CUOMO: A very populated area and again that means that whoever was involved feels confident moving in the population.</s>GORANI: Yes, there is, but also you have to keep in mind it is really on the edge of Paris, Porte De Vincent means it's a door into Paris. It's one of those doors around the (inaudible), which is kind of like --</s>CUOMO: So how does that change the dynamic from an area like where we are now, densely populated, how different is there?</s>GORANI: I don't because I would have to actually see the shop and where it is, but if you imagine Paris being sort of a big circle and you have doors, that lead into Paris from a beltway like highway surrounding the city. So it perhaps it is slightly less populated than a very dense area such as Bastile. But still it is populated.</s>CUOMO: Does it help you?</s>GORANI: No. I mean, people familiar with Paris will know it's 20 districts and you have a beltway surrounding it. And highways leading into the city and this may be an area that is slightly less of a small street, small passageway type area.</s>CUOMO: Jim Bitterman is making his way over to where the second situation is going on. Do me a favor. Put the map back up for a second. It does help us reset and bring understanding to why we are where we are right now. So let's take a look at the map. Yesterday, we all know what happened this horrible massacre at the offices of "Charlie Hebdo." You see that on your map there in Central Paris so what happened was, they escaped by car. They wound up encountering three different sets of police. One of them was on a bike, he got off the bike. He got shot. He wound up being executed by these two terrorists. He wound up being a Muslim police officer just to show the mindset of these two killers. They then take off, they are pursued, but they do escape. They establish contact through surveillance in the sky, helicopters. They follow the two suspects. The suspects become aware of it, abandon their vehicle, but apparently not their weapons, at least not all of them although they would find a simple explosive devices, there is some reporting on that in the vehicle that was abandoned. They take off into the forested areas north of Paris. They get searched there. They do not find them there in those searches overnight. They're using infrared and night vision to try to find them in surrounding fields, they don't. This morning, the suspects successfully commandeer a vehicle. When they do so they tell the people they commandeer it from that they are from al Qaeda in Yemen, doing this in response to one of their leaders being killed. They say they don't want to hurt civilians, although of course they've done exactly that. They then get pursued into this northeastern area of France, less populated, industrial, and they're in the building we've been showing you on your screen. They have been trapped in that building. They have taken a hostage, a female. They have said they will not surrender the female hostage, which again fights their understanding that they've given to people that they don't want to hurt innocent civilians. They've told the authorities who have established telephone dialogue with them that they are willing to be martyred for their cause, though they haven't taken opportunities to be martyred to this point. They are surrounded, the surrounding cities and roads have all been blocked and France's best, this GIGN S.W.A.T. team is in place and in control of the situation. Meanwhile, the second shooting that had happened, where an unarmed police officer who was irecting traffic, was shot and killed in a second officer was shot, by someone similarly dressed to the two terrorists here at "Charlie Hebdo's" offices. That happened, they escaped, now they have been contacted and have reportedly taken a hostage in a kosher market just east of where we are. So that's a situation right now. The two men on your screen confined to the area that's air surveillance in that industrial area. There's another situation going on our Jim Bitterman is en route. For more perspective on the situation right now, let's get to you Michaela back in New York. Mich, as we get to details from here and Jim gets in place, I'll get back to you.</s>PEREIRA: We appreciate that. Stellar work there. It is a rapidly unfolding and changing scenario. We want to turn for some analysis now. Paul Cruickshank, CNN terrorism analyst and Jim Archidis, former Department of Defense Counterterrorism official join me once again. Gentlemen, we have seen such a change in the last half an hour even the last hour as the situation continues to change. Talk me through this, Paul. I want to focus on this kosher shop where Chris is telling us we have a correspondent on the way to. They believe, even though French authorities will not confirm, they believe that the person holed up with a hostage in that kosher shop just east of the "Charlie Hebdo" offices, is related potentially an accomplice to the brothers that are holed up with hostages at that industrial area. What are your reactions?</s>PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Michaela, there are more and more indications that what we're dealing with here is not a lone wolf attack this is an al Qaeda cell, perhaps an al Qaeda in Yemen cell, perhaps a sleeper cell that's gone operational in France. With at least three people involved. There was the shooting yesterday in a southern district of Paris, the gunman dressed very similarly to the "Charlie Hebdo" attackers, gunned down a French police officer. But that shooting yesterday was just a few hundred yards from a Jewish school and there was some eye witnesses yesterday who thought the gunman was initially on the way to that Jewish school. So it's interesting that he's now apparently holed up in a kosher shop. Another potential Jewish target for what appeared to be an al Qaeda cell launching this major attack in Paris in retaliation for the death of Anwar Al-Awlaki, an American parish cleric, who was killed in a U.S. drone strike in September, 2011 and who has inspired a generation of extremists in the west to carry out attacks including the Fort Hood shootings, including the Boston attacks in the United States -- Michaela.</s>PEREIRA: Jim, talk to me about what you're seeing as you watch this, and talk to your sources, and what you're feeling in terms of this. We've been hearing Jim Bitterman talk to us about the potential for these young men to all be related in some ways to perhaps a Jihadi cell that operated in one of these Algerian neighborhoods in the outskirts or suburbs of Paris.</s>JIM ARKEDIS, FORMER DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE TERRORISM OFFICIAL: Yes, I think that what Jim Bitterman was talking about in terms of some of the neighborhoods on the outskirts of Paris is fascinating and gets to some of the underlying reasons why young Muslim men in France have been radicalized. Because for example, in France, France is a very secular tradition, there's a sharp division between church and state. Yet at the same time the Muslim population within France has exploded over the course of the last 15 to 20 years, and it is very difficult for people who come traditionally from North Africa, like Algeria, to integrate within French society and really establish themselves. It's difficult for young Muslims who cannot be seen to practice their religion quite as openly as they would in North Africa. France has a long, difficult history with the head scarf issue for women and there are other symbols that make it very difficult for young Muslims to get jobs, to get university degrees. And so they often seek to identify with other groups and are susceptible to this kind of radicalization because they're looking for a way to identify themselves and create an identity.</s>PEREIRA: Paul, you've talked to us on our air a lot about the fact that there have been arrests in France, in this country that is a very large Muslim population and we talk about what Jim was just addressing this notion of disenfranchised youth that have become radicalized. This is such a vulnerable and dangerous population and proposition.</s>CRUICKSHANK: Many of these young kids live in these Bon Leur, which is sort of run-down suburbs where there are not very good job opportunities and the is message, the al Qaeda message put out through social media has increasingly resonated in these suburbs. We've seen right now 400 French nationals who were fighting with various jihadist groups in Syria and Iraq, 200 considering going, 200 on their way, 200 on their way back. There are 5,000 individuals in France, the French are monitoring to varying degrees. This is a huge challenge in France. The French prime minister said the threat is greater than any time from terrorism in the country's history. These are worrying times.</s>PEREIRA: Worrying times indeed. Before turning to extremism, Cherif Kouachi apparently smoked marijuana, drank beer, had a girlfriend, some proof he was pretty secular but then something shifted and he became radicalized.</s>ARKEDIS: Right. So one of the big points in Cherif Kouachi's radicalization was Abu Ghraib and the torture that the U.S. military perpetuated on some of the prisoners there back in 2004-2005 time frame, and this is a big thing. It really speaks to the notion that the United States --</s>PEREIRA: Can interrupt for one second?</s>ARKEDIS: Yes.</s>PEREIRA: Please pause for a second because we now have live images of the standoff situation, obviously our cameras are at somewhat of a distance but you can see an awful lot of police personnel. This is the site of the second hostage-taking in France, compliments of France 2 Network, our affiliate in France just outside of Paris. This is this kosher shop that we've been hearing about in Port Devincenze, it's a kosher shop there, Epercahe. It is believed the shooter involved in Thursday's shooting of the policewoman who later died. That shooter is inside this, and surrounded inside this kosher shop with my goodness, you can see the amount of police personnel armed and protected wearing full military turnout gear. They are there and it looks as though they are very close to surrounding the area. Reportedly it's an accomplice, Alisyn, that we've been hearing about. This man, they believed is linked to the brothers that are holed up in their own standoff with police north east of Paris.</s>CAMEROTA: I'm reading the bulletin that came across from Reuters, they believe several people have been taken hostage at this kosher supermarket in eastern Paris, and again, you're seeing the outside and the police presence amassing there, trying to deal with this hostage taking as well as what's going on in the northern suburb outside of Paris. Let's go back to Chris Cuomo, he, of course, is in Paris at the scene of the original massacre. Chris, what are you hearing on the ground?</s>CUOMO: All right, Alisyn, thank you very much. I'm here with Hala Gorani and Alain, say your last name for me. Thank you very much. You are a security expert and you understand how the French authorities operate in situations like this, even up to the level of the GIGN S.W.A.T. team. We're looking at a live picture of what we believe is going on east of here and what you call the 12th district. They seem to be uniformed police but what is staging there right now? What is your understanding of this tactic?</s>ALAIN BAUER, SECURITY EXPERT: First, they are preparing and surrounding the place. Second, they will establish contact and negotiate, that's the French way. And afterwards, they will decide if there is a place for negotiation, if there's a place for rendition or if they have to go and take over the place.</s>CUOMO: Now in this tight of a formation, is this a function of obviously just believing that they are within the reach of whatever weapon they assume they're dealing with?</s>BAUER: No, just waiting to get instruction by the negotiator with the most important person in charge.</s>CUOMO: There's another detachment in front of them that seems more crouched. Again, you think that's a safe waiting position?</s>BAUER: That's the way they're prepared and wait for instruction by the negotiator, who will take the psychological mood of who he will discuss with and if there is a discussion, if there's a refusal of discussion they will try to put some equipment to see and hear what's going on inside, and then they will make a decision. Of course, it's from experience, due to Toulouse a few years ago which is first try at negotiations that unfortunately got back down, because they never wanted to surrender.</s>CUOMO: He was the man who booby trapped his own house and took 24 hours, but he was alone without hostages.</s>BAUER: Exactly.</s>CUOMO: OK, so this is different.</s>BAUER: This is different, but it's always a part of experience to know this type of individuals may want to die under attack, but may want to get as many publicity as possible.</s>CUOMO: Right.</s>BAUER: And make the show be very long.</s>CUOMO: The Paris Prosecutor's Office confirms there are hostages, plural, involved in this situation. Now, one step backwards, we're trying to figure out what this means and the police are backing off immediately. They think they're in a sensitive area of containment. This shooter yesterday was similarly dressed to the terrorists that attacked the offices here "Charlie Hebdo." He shot two officers, one was a female, she was unarmed, she died. But there is no reason to believe that shooter was either present at this shooting at "Charlie Hebdo" or is any way related to this plot, but there is reason to believe, Alain, you tell me if this is consistent with your understanding that the shooter we're looking at right now in this situation may be related to the men in terms of the organization of their cell. Does that sound right?</s>BAUER: I think it's clear that this crew was made of three persons, not two. The point was even highlighted by the ministry of the interior the beginning of the "Charlie Hebdo" situation, there was a misunderstanding on who may be, but it's clear from the beginning that French authorities knew there were not two, but three people involved.</s>CUOMO: Right.</s>BAUER: Connected together, and maybe together at the first stage.</s>CUOMO: So technically, Hala, there could be four. You could have had three people involved here at "Charlie Hebdo" and either is or is not the 18, 19-year-old young man, who turned himself in. Alain says, you say it is not him OK, so he's out of the picture but there was a third person in this attack, this massacre at "Charlie Hebdo," it could or could not be the man involved here. You could be dealing with four people.</s>BAUER: We always believe that there will be three. Two who attacked the building and one who may be in charge of the car.</s>CUOMO: Right.</s>BAUER: Which is usually how you organize these types of things and who may have been involved to shoot the policewoman.</s>CUOMO: But do you believe the man who is held up now in this kosher market that the police are trying to make their way around there in some slippery ground. Do you believe from your information that this man was related to what happened at "Charlie Hebdo?"