Facebook, Data Firm In Center Of Storm; Cambridge Analytica Whistleblower Speaks To CNN
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello and welcome, everyone. It is Monday. I`m Hala Gorani. Tonight, two huge stories with their heart right here in the United Kingdom. First of all, did a big company secretly harvest info from 50 million Facebook users? Officials in London and Washington want to know. And also, this hour, what is being called a decisive step forward in Brexit talks? Do we finally have more clarity? We`ll get to that in a moment. First, though, lawmakers on both sides of the Atlantic are demanding answers from Facebook and from a company called Cambridge Analytica. We may not have heard of it just a few days ago, but it`s become quite a household name. The data firm is allegedly involved in harvesting information from Facebook users to use in political advertising and influence campaigns. It`s a story that sent Facebook shares plunging today and one of the major issues is the millions of people whose data was potentially taken had no idea that their information was used in this way. In a moment, I`ll be speaking to the whistleblower at the heart of this story, but first Issa Soares explains how Facebook and that relatively unknown company with roots here in the U.K. came to be at the center of a storm.</s>ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): I first met the CEO of Cambridge Analytica, Alexander Nicks nine days before the U.S. presidential election in 2016, a man confident he can get inside the mind of American voters by predicting and then attempting to alter their behavior.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the data is extremely robust and proven to be so time and again.</s>SOARES: His data helped this man win, U.S. President Donald Trump, who paid multimillion dollars for them to work their magic. The behind their win method is more than just data crunching, it`s a massive data grab so says their former contractor, now turned whistleblower, Chris Wylie.</s>CHRISTOPHER WYLIE, FORMER CONTRACTOR, CAMBRIDGE ANALYSTICA: We spent almost a million dollars during this. It wasn`t some tiny pilot project. It was the core of why Cambridge Analytica became. It allowed us to move into the hearts and minds of American voters in a way that had never been done before.</s>SOARES: And this is what Wylie says they did. Cambridge Analytica receive data from a third party, a professor, Alexander Coogan based at the University of Cambridge. He was able to gather data on tens of millions of Americans through Facebook. And then using a survey placed on Facebook, they asked users to take a personality test. The answers group people on the personality types. They combined it with voter history, what they buy, where they shop, and what they watch on TV. And that enabled them to predict the personality of every adult in the United States, and then target them with specific political ads, but it goes further, by opting into these Facebook surveys, each user was actually giving not just their data, but that many of their Facebook friends.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a great grossly unethical experiment because you are playing with the entire country, the psychology of an entire country without their consent or awareness.</s>SOARES: Speaking to the U.K. Parliament Committee on Data Protection and Fake News back in February, Cambridge Analytica denied they violated Facebook`s terms.</s>ALEXANDER NIX, CEO, CAMBRIDGE ANALYST: (Inaudible) Facebook data, we don`t have Facebook data. We do use Facebook as a platform to advertise (inaudible), most of agencies, all agencies and we use Facebook as a means to gather data.</s>SOARES: The attention now turns to Facebook and how it reportedly allowed a data breach on the scale.</s>DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: As I`ve said from the beginning --</s>SOARES: And more importantly how it was used to reach and influence voters ahead of the 2016 presidential election. In a statement Facebook said the claim that this is a data breach is completely false and if those involve certified they have destroyed the data. Meanwhile, it says it`s suspending the accounts of Chris Wylie, Cambridge Analytica as well as Professor Alexander Coogan, who did not respond to our request for comment. If anything is shine the light in the dark casts of political advertising. Isa Soares, CNN, London.</s>GORANI: Well, obviously, there`s a lot of reaction to this story. Just in the last hour, we have seen secret footage of the CEO of that company mentioned in the report, Cambridge Analytica, saying his firm could use sex bribes and sex workers to entrap rival politicians. Following that report on Britain`s Channel 4 news, the U.K. Information Commissioner said she is applying for a warrant to search the firm`s databases and Facebook says Cambridge Analytica has agreed to an audit of its servers. That it really deleted these tens of millions of data points from users that perhaps weren`t fully aware that they were sharing their personal information with a data firm. Christopher Wylie is the whistleblower, who revealed the alleged breach and whom you saw on that film and he joins me now in the studio. Thanks, Chris Wylie for being with us. Where did Cambridge Analytica get its data from, was it -- I mean, it harvested it from Facebook, how?</s>WYLIE: So, after Robert Mercer (ph) put in tens of millions of dollars into this idea --</s>GORANI: Robert Mercer is the billionaire GOP donor.</s>WYLIE: Yes. He`s the rich guy who put in all the cash and when he -- when he put all his money, Steve Bannon said, OK, you know, we want to we want to be ready for the 2014 midterms, we got to find data fast. And Professor Alex Coogan at Cambridge University at the psychology department, came to us and said, I think I have a solution. I`ve got these apps that can pull data not only from the app users but from the entire friend network also. And you know the company looks at that and realize that that mandate, if we got one person to download that app, it would pull, you know, 200, 300 records and that would scale really quickly --</s>GORANI: Without their knowledge.</s>WYLIE: Without their knowledge and that would scale really quickly and that would build up a sufficient data set for the firm to be ready to operate in the 2014 midterms.</s>GORANI: What kind of information was being harvested?</s>WYLIE: You know, Facebook profile information so the algorithms that were developed in the scheme really focused at least initially on Facebook likes because when you think about what are Facebook likes. These are all the things that you know you are liking and following and really it creates a curated picture profile of you. And so, these likes would then be harvested from U.S. user and then in all of your --</s>GORANI: All my friends.</s>WYLIE: And be used to develop an algorithm that could then profile the user`s personality traits and psychological disposition so that Cambridge Analytica or its clients could target messaging that would focus on underlying, you know, mental heuristics or vulnerabilities.</s>GORANI: So, like psychometrics, like you could categorize people as neurotics or as open or (inaudible).</s>WYLIE: Absolutely. This is the big five model personality.</s>GORANI: Yes. And then based on the you think, OK, here`s an area where we could potentially target voters and then flood them with radio ads, billboards, and maybe things they would be responsive with.</s>WYLIE: With very nuances specific kinds of messages. I think one of the other things that people have to understand is that Cambridge Analytica, you know, was birthed from another company class, STL Group, which is a military contractor that`s based here in London that works in information operations. So, in terms of what, you know, the culture and attitude of Cambridge Analytica came from that, came from a military background and really treats the electorate in the same way that we would, you know, go and treat, you know, the Taliban or ISIS in Islamic extremism.</s>GORANI: Did Cambridge Analytica know that this data was taken from profile from users on Facebook that hadn`t voluntarily shared it?</s>WYLIE: Yes.</s>GORANI: They knew that?</s>WYLIE: Yes.</s>GORANI: And they were fine with that?</s>WYLIE: Yes, because, you know, it`s one of those, you know, if you don`t ask questions, you will not get answers that you do not like, right? So, you know, we knew how the apps worked. We knew that, you know, when it pulls the Facebook friend data, it would not ask the friends if they could give permission for that. It just went and just pull it and that`s why it scaled so quickly. It made the program -- I mean, we spent over a million dollars on the program, but in the scheme of the amount of data that we were able to collect, it actually was fast and cheap and gave us great quality data.</s>GORANI: The other big question is, did Facebook know?</s>WYLIE: So, my understanding is that Facebook authorized Coogan to -- Dr. Coogan, the professor, to use the app for academic purposes and that is what they told me in the legal correspondents that I`ve had with them, which means that Facebook did allow this to happen and they knew that this was happening. They just thought it was for academic research. But nonetheless, Facebook still allowed and have to go and harvests data of friends without permission.</s>GORANI: But they knew that the app would not just collect data from the person downloading the app but their friend networks?</s>WYLIE: Facebook granted that permission for the app. So, that, you know, they knew what the app is doing. They just did not necessarily know what it was for.</s>GORANI: Right. So, they knew the app was going into friend networks beyond the person who downloaded the app.</s>WYLIE: And pulling all of your friends` data without them knowing.</s>GORANI: But that goes against what Facebook routinely says, which is that your information is yours and its private and you know, they are not selling it or in any way --</s>WYLIE: Well, obviously, but this gets to how, you know, the definition of what is private because the way -- the way, at least my understanding of what was some of the statements have come out recently is it`s defining your likes and your profile as public because you share it with your friends.</s>GORANI: Right.</s>WYLIE: But just because you share something with your friends, does not mean that you necessarily want to share it with like psychological propaganda machine --</s>GORANI: Right. And that`s what you call Cambridge Analytica, I read a quote from you calling it a propaganda machine.</s>WYLIE: Well, that`s what it does. I mean, again, it comes from STL Group, which is a military contractor that works in information operations for militaries around the world. That`s propaganda.</s>GORANI: When did you leave Cambridge Analytica and why, and why are you speaking up now?</s>WYLIE: I left near the end of 2014. After I left, you know, they got very upset with me. You know, you have to remember I was one of the people who was creating this company to have me to leave was a I think a massive blow and they threatened all kinds of legal action after I left. I signed an NDA after, you know, it`s quite intimidating --</s>GORANI: A nondisclosure agreement.</s>WYLIE: A nondisclosure agreement, you know, it`s quite intimidating to have, you know, a company backed by a rich billionaire threatening you nonstop. So, I signed an NDA and I did not say anything.</s>GORANI: Why now then?</s>WYLIE: Well, because when I was watching the 2016 election happen in the United States and all of these questions about Russian interference, for example, you know, I started thinking back to the times where we were meeting with Luke Oil (ph), which is the second largest oil company in Russia. Alexander Nix did presentations to Luke Oil and the first slide was all about rumor campaigns and the second slide was about voter inoculation and, you know, we had our professor, who is managing this data harvesting program, going back and forth between London and Russia because he is also working -- Because he was also working on projects in Russia that were funded by the Russians on psychological profiling, and so for me it is really concerning because I look at what is happening, and I think OK, you know we are amassing this mass amount of data. Meanwhile, we are interfacing with a company that has no link to the FSB, which is the Russian security and intelligence service and we -- the professor who is managing this app and harvesting program was going to Russia and working for the Russians. In addition to this, the company literally pitched Coogan`s work for the Russians to other clients in other countries.</s>GORANI: This completely contradicts what Alexander Nix, the boss of Cambridge Analytica told lawmakers here in Britain. He was asked directly, do you have any Russian clients, he said no. Do you harvest information from Facebook to use Facebook as a source for your data? He said no. Are you saying he lied to lawmakers?</s>WYLIE: What I am saying and what I showed Damien Collins last week as the chair of the committee that you are referring to. I showed him contracts, invoices, e-mails that showed that, you know, a million dollars was spent at least on this program. That data was collected. You know, Alexander Nix`s signature is on the documents, right? He cannot deny it. So, for him to go to committee and say that he did not use Facebook data is patently false. People have to remember, this scheme, this data harvesting scheme was the foundation of Cambridge Analytica. These algorithms were only built because of this Facebook data.</s>GORANI: And this Russian connection, could you expand on that because Alexander Nix saying we have never had Russian clients before?</s>WYLIE: Well, what I passed to the "New York Times" and "The Guardian" were e-mails and slide decks that Alexander Nix made that, you know, reference rumor campaign, voter inoculation, you know, undermining people`s confidence in the electoral process in Nigeria, for example, that he sends to recoil. He also sends white papers that I have written on the data assets that we were amassing in the profiling algorithms that were creating and he sent that as he said to me in an e-mail to the CEO of Luke Oil, right. I am talking to senior executives at this company and in addition to that you had Alexander Coogan going back and forth between London and Russia working at St. Petersburg University on profiling people`s psychology for the Russians meanwhile as he`s setting up this massive harvesting scheme. So, I think for me, what is concerning looking at Russian interference is that this company was interfacing with Russian entities at least when I was there. I think it`s something that should be explored.</s>GORANI: Well, I want to tell our viewers because Facebook and Cambridge Analytica both are basically blaming the Cambridge professor, Dr. Coogan. They are saying they thought he was complying with U.K. law.</s>WYLIE: Right.</s>GORANI: Is that -- what is your reaction?</s>WYLIE: Well, what I would say to that is, you know, in the U.K. as a data controller, which Cambridge Analytica was, you have a legal obligation to make sure that you are getting consent from the data subjects of projects that you are funding way, right, and they did not do that. You know,</s>I -- GORANI: They are saying they knew, but they were as you said not asking the question.</s>WYLIE: They are now asking the question. I mean, I don`t want to obfuscate my responsibility in this. I played a very significant role in setting up Cambridge Analytica. You know, it stems from the research and work that I was doing when I was research director at FDL, the prior company and that is why I am coming and speaking out. You know, it`s unfortunate that, you know, Facebook as soon as I come and speak out, you know, they banned me from their platform. They banned me from Facebook. They banned me from Instagram for speaking out on a program that they have known about for at least two years. It`s only when I come public to tell people about this that they come back to me and ban me.</s>GORANI: And Facebook is asking you agree to an audit and they`ve asked Cambridge Analytica and Cambridge Analytica said yes. Will you agree to that? I`m not sure what that entails.</s>WYLIE: They haven`t told me what it entails. I am willing to have a chat with them, but you know, what is it that you want to audit, my phone?</s>GORANI: Well, because you`ve been suspended from Facebook so --</s>WYLIE: But you know what are you going to audit, my phone? I do not -- I am not company. I don`t have a server. I don`t have -- you know, what do you want audit?</s>GORANI: Well, I mean, that`s a question for them. I am also slightly confused by that request.</s>WYLIE: I`m the person like the thing that really frustrates me about Facebook`s response is I`m the person bringing public attention and scrutiny to this issue. I talked with their lawyers. My worst talk with the lawyers last week. They said that they wanted to have -- they`ve known that this was coming for a week as we gave them a heads up. And you know, they committed to me in writing that they want to have an open and collaborative approach, and now they turn around and drop this press release that says I`m being suspended. Make insinuations that somehow, I am, you know, working on some kind of nefarious thing or --</s>GORANI: You want to setup a rival company, that was --</s>WYLIE: I am sorry that is just patently false. I do not want to set up a company for the alt-right. Like look at me, I am not exactly the vision of an alt-right, you know, I do not want to set up a rival Cambridge Analytica.</s>GORANI: Well, for instance, if it were for a political side that you embrace so that you agreed with. Would you have continued this work under these circumstances?</s>WYLIE: I work in political targeting. I worked in the United States. I have worked in Canada. I`ve worked in U.K. I worked actually all around the world for progressive candidates. So, yes, I do work in targeting. I do not work in propaganda or, you know, go around stealing data.</s>GORANI: Yes.</s>WYLIE: But, you know, the idea that I am trying to set up a rival Cambridge Analytica is patently false and by the way, I haven`t. Look, I am not.</s>GORANI: (Inaudible) for years is what you`re saying.</s>WYLIE: And I`m not -- like there is this rival Cambridge Analytica that I am setting up.</s>GORANI: I want to ask you a question about Steve Bannon because essentially he is the one who brought the Mercer money in, right, the 15 million reported 15 million.</s>WYLIE: Yes.</s>GORANI: What did he see in the company? At the time, it was upstart. It didn`t have the big cash injection. Did you meet him and what did he say - -</s>WYLIE: Yes. So, he came -- it`s a funny story because somebody who had previously worked with FDL on the military side, just by sheer coincidence met some Republican consultants on a plane and you know how Americans do. They started chatting and (inaudible) your second no feet, you know, what you do, what I do, work in cyber warfare. I am a Republican consultant let`s like talk.</s>GORANI: Right.</s>WYLIE: They got -- I got introduced to Alexander Nix and then Alexander Nix got introduced to Steve Bannon because Steve Bannon was, you know, at the time running Breitbart and the Breitbart vision was, you know, don`t focus on politics, change politics and culture. (Inaudible) politics close from culture and so he was looking for, you know, a wider arsenal of weapons to fight back culture war. And it really appealed to him that FDL had background in military information operations because, again, if you think about how do you wage a culture war, you need an arsenal of weapons, and what better place to go to where the military goes.</s>GORANI: But he saw potential in a company that had really done anything on a big scale in the U.S. at all because its first attempts laboratory as I was told by another person who worked at Cambridge Analytica was the 2014 midterms. That is where that all that methodology was tested and then utilized in a more refined sophisticated way in 2016.</s>WYLIE: But FDL Group, you have remember, Cambridge Analytica didn`t exist at the time. Cambridge Analytica was, you know, only came into existence after Steve Bannon and Robert Mercer decided to fund the project to take what FDL is doing around the world for various militaries. Intervening in elections in other countries and take it and (inaudible) into the United States and set up an American entity. It`s something to point out is that Cambridge Analytica is more of a concept or brand for its American facing work, but the vast majority of its staff are based here in London. And they work for FDL. Their paycheck is</s>FDL. GORANI: I`m going to ask you one last question. How do we know any of this had any impact on any race? How can we measure that, can we?</s>WYLIE: I mean, like anything in elections, it`s impossible to say, you know, exactly what -- you know what won it for Trump or what won it for whomever. But, you know, I think that it must had an impact -- knowing the research that I was working on at the time, we were looking at, you know, things like drain the swamp. We were looking at imagery of walls and how people engage with that concept. We were looking at, you know, suspicions about the deep state. We were looking at all kinds of things that at the time, you know in 2014 would have sounded slightly fringe or crazy for any political candidate to go on. But what we are finding were, you know, cohorts of Americans who really responded to some of these things and this all got fed back to Steve Bannon, you know, and then right after I left, Cambridge Analytica started meeting with Corey Lewandowski, who later became Trump`s campaign manager at the Trump Organization in New York before Trump even announced that he was going to run. So, for some reason you`ve got Cambridge Analytica, who is working for Ted Cruz at the time, going to the Trump Organization in New York and meeting with Corey Lewandowski for some reason before Trump even announced.</s>GORANI: This is very interesting to me.</s>WYLIE: They confirmed that to me --</s>GORANI: They were meeting at Trump Tower before --</s>WYLIE: Trump even announced that he was running for president.</s>GORANI: OK.</s>WYLIE: Yes. That relationship goes back far, you know, far longer than what they have admitted so far and you know, this -- I had it in writing from their lawyers that they had this meeting.</s>GORANI: With Corey Lewandowski present?</s>WYLIE: Yes.</s>GORANI: And Trump or just Corey Lewandowski as --</s>WYLIE: Corey Lewandowski at the Trump Organization in New York in the spring of 2015.</s>GORANI: At that point they decided to work together.</s>WYLIE: I do not know. You`ll have to ask Cambridge Analytica, why were you meeting with Donald Trump before he could even announce when you were working for Ted Cruz, what were you pitching? You know, this is at the same time that they are going around talking to all these Russian entities, you know, it is bizarre.</s>GORANI: Well, it is certainly connect-the-dot situation here where we are getting a lot more information. Thanks to you in putting the pieces of the puzzle together. Chris Wylie, thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate your time. We spent a long time talking to because it is so interesting what you shared with us this evening. And many people on Facebook also I think will be interested in some of these.</s>WYLIE: I have a message to Facebook, it`s like let`s work together. I am not out to get Facebook.</s>GORANI: OK. Chris Wylie, thanks so much for joining us. Still to come, is it a Brexit breakthrough after long negotiations before we finally have more clarity? We`ll be right back.