Peaceful Resolution No Longer Possible in Libya
FOSTER: You're back with CONNECT THE WORLD, the world's -- on CNN, the world's news leader. Let's check the headlines for you this hour. Israel says it does not want relations with Turkey to deteriorate any further. But Turkey appears unwilling to forgive Israel's raid on a Gaza- bound flotilla last year. Turkey's prime minister now says Ankara is freezing defense industry ties with Israel. Nine people, mostly Turks, were killed in the raid. Stock markets across Europe were stunned by the news that Switzerland plans to put a cap on the value of the Swiss franc. Stocks have also fallen on Wall Street after the Labor Day holiday. The Dow Jones lost almost 1 percent. Members of Italy's largest union have been on strike in several cities. They're protesting unpopular austerity measures moving through parliament. The work stoppage has caused transportation problems across the country. Cooler temperatures and calmer winds may help firefighters in Texas. They need the help badly, as dozens of wildfires are burning across the state. The biggest blaze has swallowed up almost 600 homes. At least two people died in one of the fires. TV cameras are to be allowed into British courts for the first time, but they'll be limited the showing only judges delivering sentences. Witnesses, victims, defendants and juries will not be filmed. Gunfire is -- gunfire ends any hope of negotiating a peaceful resolution in the stand-off in Bani Walid. That is according to Libya's transitional rulers, who say their patience has now run out. Anti-Gadhafi fighters surrounding the regime's stronghold had been talking with town elders, trying to negotiate a surrendered. But today, they say pro-Gadhafi forces fired on elders returning from the talks. Also today, the news that convoys have left Libya set off intense speculation that Moammar Gadhafi might be on board. But the consensus now seems to be probably not. officials in Niger confirm that two Libyan convoys crossed into their country this week. One is said to be in the capital after passing through Agadez, while the other was reportedly heading in that direction. There's speculation the convoys may travel on to Burkina Faso, a country that has ruled out granting asam -- asylum to Moammar Gadhafi. All right, let's get an update on all of these developments for you right now. Our Ben Wedeman is now in Tripoli, after spending much of the day near Bani Walid -- Ben.</s>BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we were in Bani Walid. And it was a pretty slow day. Apparently, the NTC met all through the night with elders from Bani Walid and gave them assurances that there would be no retribution, that they would be treated as ordinary Libyans. But when those elders returned to Bani Walid to convey these assurances to the inhabitants of the town, apparently gunmen met them at the entrance to the town, opened fire on them, according to an NTC spokesman, who said that they started to curse at these village elders and said you are rats, go back to the rats. In other words, the members of the NTC. So the spokesman we spoke to this evening indicated that negotiations are off, that they are probably going to go ahead with some sort of military offensive against the pro-Gadhafi forces in Bani Walid. This despite the fact that according to NTC sources, they believe that the vast majority of the inhabitants of Bani Walid are now on the side of the rebels and want these pro-Gadhafi elements to leave the town as soon as possible - - Max.</s>FOSTER: Ben, try to bring us up to date on this convoy that went into Niger. First of all, who was in that convoy? And where are we getting the information from on who was it in and this rumor that Gadhafi may have been in it, but actually wasn't?</s>WEDEMAN: No, that rumor has been quashed, even by the US State Department. Apparently, an American diplomat in Niamey, the capital of Niger, has met with government officials there, warning them that they should arrest some of the members of this convoy because they're on the UN travel ban list. Precisely who's among the passengers on the convoy, whether it's really 200 and -- or 250 cars in each is not altogether clear. One of the names that's been talked about is Mansour Dhao. He was a senior military officer apparently responsible for the personal security of Moammar Gadhafi, which may be one of the reasons why there was initial speculation that the Libyan leader might be on that -- in that convoy but, apparently, that is not true. And of course, we did hear from Moussa Ibrahim, the spokesman for the Gadhafi government, who told a Damascus-based pro-Libyan television station that Moammar Gadhafi is in excellent health inside Libya, but nobody knows where, and is planning to fight back. Max?</s>FOSTER: And Ben, we're just hearing from Reuters that Burkina Faso is saying that they haven't had an exile request from Colonel Gadhafi, but is Gadhafi running out of options on where he could potentially go?</s>WEDEMAN: Well, certainly his options have narrowed dramatically. He's not in Bani Walid by all accounts. He could be in Sirte on the coast, that's his hometown, or Sabha in the southern part of the country. But let's not forget, Libya is a huge country, and he does have the resources to run around in the desert for quite some time. It's beginning to look a bit like the beginning of the search for Saddam Hussein. Max?</s>FOSTER: OK, Ben Wedeman, thank you very much, indeed, for your update. Some important developments out of Libya today, then. Let's get some perspective, now, from Guma el-Gamaty. He's the National Transitional Council's coordinator here in the UK. Thank you very much, indeed, for joining us. What's your idea about where Colonel Gadhafi is? I know it's guesswork at the moment, but what's your best guess?</s>GUMA EL-GAMATY, UK COORDINATOR, NATIONAL TRANSITIONAL COUNCIL: My best guess is that he's somewhere in Libya, somewhere in the south in the Sabha region, probably hiding. He probably has many, many hideouts in those areas, which he knows very well. He grew up in those -- in that region, by the way.</s>FOSTER: And he's got a lot of support, still, hasn't he? I know in some areas that the -- the civilians don't get all the information that they perhaps should and they're not sure that the whole country's effectively dominated by the NTC now. Are you concerned that by going into areas like Bank Walid you're going to get civilians caught up in the crossfire, because they're confused about what's going on?</s>GAMATY: I wouldn't call it lots of support he still has. He's still got a few remnants of a few hundreds of armed men who are still portraying themselves as loyal to him --</s>FOSTER: And some civilians are still loyal to him, aren't they?</s>GAMATY: Maybe, but those are in Bani Walid and Sirte, mainly. And in Bani Walid, the issue is that we don't want any bloodshed, we don't want any more Libyan people lost through the fighting, and that's why the people who are surrounding the city, who are actually from the same town as well, the freedom fighters, are negotiating with their own people --</s>FOSTER: But they're not --</s>GAMATY: -- inside the city.</s>FOSTER: -- the talks have broken down, haven't they, with the elders in the town?</s>GAMATY: They have. They have because those couple of hundred people with their guns and with the weapons are still holding out and preventing the elderly and the main civilians of the city to join the revolution.</s>FOSTER: But what's the option, then? Is it a siege?</s>GAMATY: The option is to give -- I wouldn't say the promise -- to give peaceful negotiations a chance, maybe a couple more days. And then, if need be, the freedom fighters will go in and --</s>FOSTER: They go in.</s>GAMATY: -- and talk -- take those --</s>FOSTER: It's a big risk, if so many civilians do get caught in the crossfire, if there are more civilians in there than you're aware of.</s>GAMATY: Well, look. You know, Tripoli was the major capital where Gadhafi's power and strength was, and yet it was overrun by the freedom fighters in a few hours. So I can assure you, Bani Walid is nothing compared to Tripoli.</s>FOSTER: So why hold off?</s>GAMATY: It -- well, we didn't -- we don't even want to have one -- one person killed. These are people who are going to be attacked by their own people, so we don't want them killing each other. That does not going to look good for the future, so that's why we will hold out until the last resort. And then, if need be, those couple of hundred people or so would be overrun, I can assure you, they can be overrun in an hour or so.</s>FOSTER: And then on to Sirte.</s>GAMATY: And then on to Sirte, yes.</s>FOSTER: And that's -- so when do you think all of this will be tied up? When will you have control of the whole country?</s>GAMATY: Oh, a week, two weeks maximum, I would say. And at the same time, the hunt for Gadhafi continues as well. And he -- his options are becoming very, very narrow. If he goes to any country, neighboring country, like Algeria, Niger, Chad, Burkina Faso, Mali, these countries will understand very well that they will be under extreme pressure from both the Libyan people and from the international community to hand back Gadhafi and his sons and his aids, because these are men wanted for crimes against humanity.</s>FOSTER: How are you dealing with that? For example, these pro- Gadhafi forces that we think have ended up in Niger, your relations with Niger will be severely affected by that. How are you dealing with those diplomatic problems, crises, effectively, you're having, particularly if Gadhafi gets into one of those countries?</s>GAMATY: In time, Niger and any other neighboring country will understand very well and very clearly that their interest is --</s>FOSTER: They don't seem to understand now, though, do they?</s>GAMATY: Yes. Well, it's difficult now if somebody just drifts across the border. But in time, they need to apprehend them and hand them back. And if they want a good relationship with Libya, because look, there's no way back. Gadhafi's finished, his regime is finished, toppled. If they want -- if they want to think about the future and their own interests for the future, they need to be on the good side of Libya and the Libyan people. That means they have to apprehend and hand back these war criminals. It's as simple as that.</s>FOSTER: Until Gadhafi is caught in some way, the -- all the rebels have this common goal, haven't they, in overthrowing Gadhafi, getting rid of Gadhafi? What happens after that, though? Are the cracks beginning to emerge within the NTC, within the rebel groups? It's inevitable, isn't it, that people will disagree on the future after Gadhafi? How are you dealing with that? I'm sure the cracks are emerging already, aren't they?</s>GAMATY: Well, the media loves to talk about cracks and disagreements --</s>FOSTER: There's always cracks in politics.</s>GAMATY: Yes, because that's what makes your job interesting, isn't it? Well, we're sorry to disappoint you that there is -- there's not going to be any major divisions. If there are any differences of agreement, that's natural. That's what democracy is about. Democracy's about how -- having differences of view and of opinion of how to do things, but things can be sorted out through debate, and that is a source of richness, not divisions. I can assure you, we are all agreed on Libya as one country, united, with the capital Tripoli. We want a constitution that's going to be democratic that will underpin and guarantee all the essential freedoms, and we want to move on, rebuilding our country politically, economically, socially, and development-wise as well, and make it one of the big success stories in the region.</s>FOSTER: Guma el-Gamaty, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us on the program.</s>GAMATY: Thank you, sir.</s>FOSTER: Before we leave Libya tonight, we want to give you a rare glimpse into a Gadhafi home in Tripoli and, more importantly, show you what's beneath it. All of the Gadhafi compounds have been thoroughly inspected after family members fled, and this complex belongs to one of the Gadhafi sons. Now, beneath the serene landscape is an elaborate bunker where the family could hide in case of emergency. It features decontamination showers, airtight sealed doors, and walls that can withstand a non- conventional nuclear, biological, or chemical attack. You can learn much more about this bunker on "BackStory," immediately following CONNECT THE WORLD right here on CNN. You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD. Coming up after the break, the South Korean city shaping the future, the latest in our Gateway series, is in two minutes. We're in Incheon, where the airport is the foundation of its success.