Families Search for Loved Ones in London
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone. Four days after the terrorist strikes in London, two searches continue tonight and each is equally difficult. In three subway trains deep beneath the city's streets, one of them 70 feet underground, rescuers are combing through the wreckage for bodies of victims, the heat stifling, the work exhausting. Investigators, meanwhile, are looking for clues that might lead them to the bombers. Today the death toll in London rose to 52. Officials identified for the first time victims, a 53-year-old married mother of two and a 51-year-old office cleaner. Think about that. They know at least 52 people died. But figuring out who died from the sadly and, literally, the fragments of remains they have is proving to be both heartbreaking and difficult. In the House of Commons, Britain's prime minister, Tony Blair, said that Britain will not rest until the bombers are caught, bombers he said, who are likely Islamic extremist terrorists. It's not the first time that suggestion has been made in a country where diversity has come with complications. We begin tonight with CNN's Nic Robertson.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not about international law or the rule of law.</s>NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's Sunday night, three days after the London bombing. And a group of young Muslims meet in south London.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not talking about religions anymore. This is about bigger than that.</s>ROBERTSON: They're members of Hisbiutahir (ph), the largest hard line Islamic group in the country. They've come to condemn the bombing and discuss accusations that radical Muslims are behind the attacks.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are any number of scenarios that can be played out here. Whether it was a British intelligence services, U.S. intelligence services or another power, which may have interest in doing such a thing, we just leave the door open.</s>ROBERTSON: Kassam Kawarja (ph) is one of the group's leaders. He attended Oxford University. By day, he's a computer consultant. He fits exactly the profile of a Muslim extremist as defined by this report from the British home office. "By and large, most extremists fall into one of two groups: well educated with degrees and technical professional qualifications, or underachievers." This same document suggests Hisbiutahir (ph) wants a global Islamic state and could be used for recruiting terrorists. Kawarja denies that.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I'm saying is, in day to day, in the Muslim communities that I'm involved in, I have seen no evidence of it at all. No evidence of it at all. There is no recruitment.</s>ROBERTSON (on camera): Kawarja's (ph) group has been banned from universities and some mosques. By any standards, the views he espouses are far more radical than the vast majority of British Muslims. (voice-over) In the last 30 years, Britain has had a massive influx of Muslims, so much so some have dubbed these streets Londonistan. One point six million Muslims now live here in Britain.</s>TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: People know full well that the overwhelming majority of Muslims stand four square with every other community in Britain.</s>ROBERTSON: British Prime Minister Tony Blair appears at pains not to alienate the country's Muslims. But even moderate leaders warn of discontent among Muslim youth.</s>DR. MUHAMMAD ABDUL BARI, CHAIRMAN, EAST LONDON MOSQUE: There is a social disaffection. There is deprivation. There is job. There is a job problem, employment problem. And, of course, the foreign policy of the government. These are probably the issues that some young people feel bitter about.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the force side.</s>ROBERTSON: Former garage owner Glen Jenvey has made it his personal battle to draw London's Islamic extremists out into the open.</s>GLEN JENVEY, ISLAMIST RESEARCHER: There was enough there to sort of hang half Hamza and half the Jihadis in London.</s>ROBERTSON: After 9/11 he founded this fake Islamist web site. And convinced the radical London cleric, Abu Hamza, once a vocal and leading member of Hisbiutahir (ph), to send him recruiting videos.</s>JENVEY: I basically made them think that I was actually a jihadi.</s>ROBERTSON: The videos were so revealing, they resulted in one Islamic extremist, already facing charges in the U.S. for supporting terrorist organization, to plead guilty. And Hamza, until then only suspected of supporting terrorism, was arrested, and charged with soliciting to murder.</s>JENVEY: It's like inviting a load of snakes. I'm playing with them and they're poking them, and Britain's being bitten.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a great deal of skepticism, great deal of skepticism around the kind of evidence that we are being asked to believe.</s>ROBERTSON: Skepticism not only about who's responsible for last week's London bombings. (on camera) You don't believe Osama bin Laden was responsible for September 11th.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I'm not saying that. All I'm saying is that there is a case that's being presented.</s>ROBERTSON: And you don't...</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For me to engage in that case with little or no evidence...</s>ROBERTSON: Apart from his confession.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. But his confession. Where is he? Where is this organization? We hear the name of al Qaeda being applied left, right and center.</s>ROBERTSON: If views like this are common currency, the British government may have much more to worry about than just arresting those individuals responsible for last Thursday's bombings.</s>ROBERTSON: Now, Hawaja (ph) insists that, for all his rhetoric, there is no military action. His group is all about vocalizing their issues politically, Aaron.</s>BROWN: Nic, I want to try and get two things here. So work with me. First have all, I understand polemics as well as anybody, but do you think he actually does not believe there is an al Qaeda and actually does not believe Osama bin Laden was responsible for 9/11, and actually doesn't believe there's a Mohammed Atta and the rest?</s>ROBERTSON: You know, what is fascinating about this, Aaron, and quite surprising, to me here in London, as well, no, he doesn't. They thank -- many people in his group think -- there are a host of conspiracy theories about 9/11, about the bombs in London. And just to round that home, if you will, to me, when I was out on the street earlier by a mosque, some people came up to talk to me, some Muslims from the local community. We got talking about this. And they said, "No, we don't believe that either. We -- you know, we think that the west is against us." It's surprising how deep among some in the community these thoughts run.</s>BROWN: Quickly on the investigation, is there any sense in London that they are close to breaking this?</s>ROBERTSON: We're not getting that from any of our sources. We're being told that the police are playing it close to their chest. We know that. They've said that they won't say, for example, what type of explosives there are, although it's being reported in some press today they're military explosives. The residue analysis should be, by this stage, giving the police that kind of information. They're not revealing many of the names of the dead. Again, we're being told from inside this investigation, that the police are looking very, very, very closely at people who are missing, if you will. People that they've been watching and keeping an eye on that have disappeared off the radar screen. So again, I think the police appear to be holding back on some information, Aaron.</s>BROWN: Nic, thank you. Good to see you. Nic Robertson is in London in the early morning there. Whatever the final number of dead or injured or under arrest, at the end of it all, this is a story about individuals, more about how they lived and how they died, how those they loved are adjusting and how life for a lot of people may change. For now, though, the story is about lives interrupted, or in the case of a woman from Nigeria looking for her missing son, it is about all of that and everything else that lives in a mother's heart.</s>MARIE FATAYI-WILLIAMS, MISSING MAN'S MOTHER: This is Anthony, Anthony Fatayi-Williams, my son. Twenty-six years old. He's missing. And we feel he was in the bus explosion that exploded on Thursday. We don't know. We know of New York. We know Madrid. We know London. But the widespread slaughter of innocent people. Terrorism is not the way. My son Anthony is my first son, my only son, 26, my only son, the head of my family. African society, they hold onto sons. He has dreams and hopes. And I, his mother, must fight to protect them, to protect his values and to protect his memory. Innocent blood will always cry to God Almighty for reparation (ph)! So how much blood must be spilt? How many tears shall we cry? How many mothers' hearts must be maimed? My heart is maimed at the moment. I pray that I see my son Anthony!</s>BROWN: Two young American women who were injured in one London subway explosion underwent surgery today, underwent surgery at Duke University Hospital in North Carolina. They've been flown home. Sisters Emily and Katie Benton were just 10 feet from the bomb that exploded in a subway car near Edgware Road. The doctor said their condition is stable. They appear to be doing well, all things considered.</s>GREGORY GEORGIADE, M.D., SURGEON: Their injuries are multiple in nature. They will survive, and they have great faith. And they have great support by the family, and they will do well.</s>BROWN: Emily and Katie Benton are from Tennessee. Last week, they were vacationing in London with. Another American, 37-year-old Michael Matsushita of the Bronx is presumed dead in the bombings. He'd already -- he had recently, rather, moved to London, has not been seen since. He left his flat for work on Thursday morning. The attacks on London have refocused our attention on the war on terror here at home, of course, as well. In a speech at the FBI training academy in Virginia today, President Bush talked about terror strikes last week in London, raising several familiar themes.</s>GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: These kind of people who blow up subways and buses are not people you can negotiate with or reason with or appease. In the face of such adversaries, there is only one course of action. We will continue to take the fight to the enemy. And we will fight until this enemy is defeated.</s>BROWN: President Bush speaking at the FBI training academy in Quantico, Virginia, today. There is probably something about human nature that has us fighting the last battle and not the next, where the war on terror is concerned. Since 9/11 we spent nearly 20 billion on airport security and relative chunk change, $250 million on mass transit. Had the 9/11 hijackers hit subways and not airplanes, you can bet the numbers would be different. In one part this is a political story, in another part it's a security story, and in truth, it's also part of a story about limitations. We can only do so much. Joining us now from Washington, James Carafano is the senior fellow for defense at homeland security at the Heritage Foundation. We're pleased to see him. Look, the question, I think, is not can money solve every problem, and I think the question is, A, are we spending money right? And B, if we spent more on mass transit, would we be safer?</s>JAMES CARAFANO, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: No.</s>BROWN: No?</s>CARAFANO: No, because quite frankly, what the terrorists would do is they'd just move on to the next target. I mean, you know, comparisons between aviation and mass transit are very inappropriate. The hugest chunk of the money that's paying for airline security comes from taxes that we stick on airline tickets.</s>BROWN: So?</s>CARAFANO: So if mass transit wants the same amount of money as aviation security, then you're going to start putting surcharges on subway passes and bus tokens. And it won't be mass transit anymore; nobody will be able to afford do it.</s>BROWN: Time out here. It strikes me, honestly, that we're kind of mixing arguments here. One argument is where does the money come from. My question really has to do with forget where the money comes from for a second. If we had more money or if we spent money differently, could we make Grand Central Station or Union Station in Washington, could we make it safer? Because if you take the train -- I've taken the train -- you know that you could walk on Amtrak tomorrow with a bomb and know one would stop you.</s>CARAFANO: Right. The answer is no. I mean, first of all, mass transit is designed to move many people very quickly. The kind -- the kind of things that would make it impenetrable are screening systems and hardening, enormously expensive and they would pretty much make mass transit dysfunctional. So there's not a good practical solution to doing that. And then you still wouldn't solve the problem, because then they'd just blow up a station in Oklahoma City or they'd blow up the station in Los Angeles. So you start with the best investment, the best bang for the buck is to get the terrorists to begin with. So the first thing you want to fully fund is your intelligence, your early warning, your counter- terrorism operations, because that's the best investment on a dollar. Trying to child proof America is a disaster strategy. And it is about throwing money at the problem. I mean, that's essentially what we're doing. We've allocated $250 million to mass transit security. Most of that money hasn't been spent and people are screaming to throw more money at it.</s>BROWN: All right. Let me -- let me take the argument to an end and we can decide if it's in a logical end or not. I agree with you that the first thing to do is to stop them from getting in. I don't think any disagrees. That's -- that's a slam dunk. But honestly, I'm not that confident we can do that. So if we take your argument to its end, we really wouldn't spend money screening airline passengers any more than we'd spend money securing subway stations, because they'll just move on to the next one, a chemical plant or a water treatment plant or a milk supply. Or -- right?</s>CARAFANO: Quite frankly, I think that the airline security approach it's not a good model, we spend 99 percent of our money screening 99 percent of people that aren't a problem. Now, there are things that we should do. I mean, there are reasonable things that we should do that can make mass transit safer. Situation awareness, where you know what's going on in the system, interoperable communications, information sharing, intelligence exchange, public awareness. But quite frankly, we're doing a lot of those things already.</s>BROWN: So if you had another $100 million and I said to you, you can only spend this on subways, mass transit generally, when all is said and done, you don't think it would be any safer than it is right now?</s>CARAFANO: No. Actually, I'd take the money and I'd give it to the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard is running around with ships that are sinking and are older than the crews that are on them. And they're providing the first line of defense for this country, and they don't even have the ships they need. And we're going to spend money hardening trains, it just makes no sense.</s>BROWN: Well, as a former Coast Guardsman, I'd probably take the money. Thank you. Good to see you. We appreciate the argument tonight. In a moment, when a hurricane hits, who's in charge? But first, at a quarter past the hour, if I talk really fast, Erica Hill joins us from Atlanta with some of the day's other news. Good evening, Ms. Hill.</s>ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS: Good evening to you. You just made it just under the wire. Eight seconds to go. Nice work. Actually, let me start off with a rather somber marking of an anniversary. Tens of thousands gathering today in Bosnia-Herzegovina to honor the victims of the worst massacre since World War II, when nearly 8,000 Muslims were murdered by Bosnia Serb troops in Srebrenica. The massacre began 10 years ago today. Two key Bosnian wartime leaders have been indicted for genocide by the U.N. Tribunal on War Crimes, but both are still at large. And yet more sad news in a very sad story, after the FBI positively identified remains it discovered last week in Montana as those of 9-year-old Dylan Groene. James Edward Duncan III, a convicted multiple sex offender, is already being held on charges of kidnapping Dylan and his sister, Shasta, who survived. In southern Colorado, a wildfire has destroyed 8,000 acres of the San Isabel National Forest. It has also -- it's also forced the evacuation of 5,000 people in the area about 100 miles south of Denver. The next few days, forecasters say, will bring dry windy conditions. That is not good news for firefighters. And as Lieutenant Columbo always said, just one more thing, Aaron. A plug for the best way to see as much CNN video you'd like whenever you'd like. Go to CNN.com. But best of all, you can get it for less than Columbo paid for a five-cent cigar, about a nickel less, just in case you forgot over the weekend.</s>BROWN: I don't want to worry you. But I got an e-mail from someone on this with an obscenity attached to it. OK?</s>HILL: That's not good.</s>BROWN: Not good at all. Thank you. We'll see you in a half an hour. More to come tonight on the program, starting with the storm.</s>ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": It's falling apart. Get back! Get back!</s>BROWN (voice-over): When things get rough, when high winds gather, meet the gathering call.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming off that three-mile bridge area, wind gusts there easy 50 miles an hour, probably got four foot waves breaking across there.</s>BROWN: Hurricane Dennis and the county sheriff known as Hurricane Ron. Later, police opened fire, a young child died. What went wrong? Did anything go right? We'll ask the Los Angeles chief of police. Also tonight...</s>SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I've known Karl for a long time and I didn't even need to go ask Karl, because I know the kind of person that he is. And he is someone that is committed to the highest standards of conduct.</s>BROWN: That was then. What about now? Did the president's top political adviser break the law and out a CIA agent? He's Karl Rove and this is NEWSNIGHT.