Should Congress Investigate Former President Clinton's 11th Hour Pardons?
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Tonight: Alan Greenspan talks tax cuts on Capitol Hill.</s>ALAN GREENSPAN, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: If the current economic weakness spreads beyond what now appears likely, having a tax cut in place may in fact do noticeable good.</s>BLITZER: What he said, why he said it, and what it could mean to the economy, the Bush budget and your wallet. The presidential pardon that won't go away: Bill Clinton wipes the slate clean for a fugitive billionaire. I'll talk with New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani. He wants Congress to get involved. And a Cold War mystery comes into focus: U.S. B-29s that landed in the Soviet Union half-a-century ago and used as blueprints for Soviet bombers.</s>BLITZER: Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting tonight from Washington. President George W. Bush has been pushing for a huge tax cut for more than a year. Today, he received some badly needed support from what was once considered an unlikely source: Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan. When Greenspan talks, people listen. So his words could result in lower taxes for you sooner rather than later. And that's our top story.</s>GREENSPAN: Starting that process sooner rather than later likely would help smooth the transition to longer-term fiscal balance.</s>BLITZER: Greenspan would not specifically endorse President Bush's 10-year, $1.6 trillion, across-the-board tax cut. Even so, the White House welcomed what it heard.</s>GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I was pleased to hear Mr. Greenspan's words. I thought they were measured and just right. He recognizes that we good monetary policies and sound fiscal policy to make sure that the economy grows. And so I was pleased.</s>BLITZER: Greenspan warned the economy is not growing. And he urged Congress and the president to limit spending. And he played down the idea that tax cuts alone would immediately stimulate the slowing economy. More proof of a slowdown: further layoffs announced -- 5,300 at J.C. Penney and 7,000 for Sara Lee. But Greenspan's words were precisely what the Bush White House wanted to hear.</s>MARSHALL WITTMAN, HUDSON INSTITUTE: It's always good news when the Obi-Wan Kenobi of the economy blesses a tax cut. This already makes something that was going to happen more critical. And the administration right now is jumping for joy that Alan Greenspan has blessed their tax cut.</s>BLITZER: For more on Greenspan's comments and reaction from the Bush administration, let's go to CNN White House correspondent Major Garrett. Major, the White House has been courting Alan Greenspan for some time. It seems to be paying off.</s>MAJOR GARRETT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Wolf, I can summarize the White House reaction to Chairman Greenspan's testimony in two words: irrational exuberance -- very happy here at the White House. And, yes, Wolf, a studied work here at the White House to court Alan Greenspan, not necessarily to make him a part of the Bush administration or a spokesman or an advocate for the Bush tax cut, but to bring him around to the Bush point of view as to the direction of economy and the need for a tax cut. There are two key players beside the president, of course. Vice President Dick Cheney has known the Fed chairman for many, many years. And, of course, the treasury secretary, Paul O'Neill is a protege of Mr. Greenspan's. You'll remember when we were introduced to Mr. O'Neill, he said there were times in the recent past when Mr. Greenspan would call him up and ask him for advice about the direction of the economy. Well, that kind of relationship pays off at a time like this, with now the Bush administration not only pushing hard for tax cuts itself, but the nation's top economist working with them as well -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: Major, is it fair to conclude now as a result of what Mr. Greenspan said that there will in fact be a tax cut pretty soon down the road?</s>GARRETT: Absolutely. It's only a matter of time and the size, Wolf. You could tell at that Senate Budget Committee hearing, as Democrats sort of smoldered in resentment. One senator, Senator Fred Hollings from South Carolina, said: "You have just set off a stampede here, Mr. Chairman." He knows, as well as many other Democrats, that now the tax-cut momentum is absolutely unstoppable. There are a range of figures, of course. The president will start off at about $1.6 trillion. The Senate minority leader, Tom Daschle, has already said he's up to $850 billion over 10 years. A compromise figure somewhere at $1 trillion, $1.2 trillion seems very possible, possibly as early as April or May -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: Major Garrett at the White House, thank you very much. Meanwhile, President Bush's choice for attorney general is still waiting to be confirmed. And his political opponents are making use of this extra time. Today, a man named Paul Offner said he interviewed with Senator Ashcroft in 1985 for a post in the Missouri state government. He said Ashcroft clearly indicated he would not hire him if he had been openly gay.</s>PAUL OFFNER, ASHCROFT CRITIC: After we had shaken hands and sat down, without sort of any introduction or foreplay, he said to me: "My first question, Mr. Offner, do you have the same sexual preference as most men?" And I said that I thought I did.</s>BLITZER: When asked if the Bush administration considers it appropriate to ask potential employees about their sexuality, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer dismissed Offner's claims.</s>ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: That is not a question that we ask. And I'm not aware of anyone who has done such a thing.</s>QUESTION: Do you know if it is appropriate or inappropriate to ask such a question?</s>FLEISCHER: I would refer you to the law. And we do not ask that. (</s>OFF-MIKE) QUESTION: ... allegation that's in the "Washington Post" today from a from a man who was interviewed by John Ashcroft who says that he asked that very question and is, in effect, corroborated by a contemporaneous witness. So there is someone who -- in the administration -- in the prospective administration</s>FLEISCHER: And Mr. Ashcroft has said that he does not recall saying that or asking that. (</s>OFF-MIKE) QUESTION: ... possibility that it might have happened?</s>FLEISCHER: I refer you to what he said.</s>BLITZER: Joining me now from Capitol Hill with the latest on the Ashcroft nomination: CNN congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl. Jonathan, how much of a threat -- if at all -- does this latest issue bring to the Ashcroft confirmation?</s>JONATHAN KARL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the short answer is really not much of a threat at all. Democrats on the committee who have been working furiously against Ashcroft acknowledge that this may be something that be upsets some, but it's not likely to switch many votes, and certainly not the kind of thing that would doom the Ashcroft nomination. But, Wolf, there is one interesting sidebar to this. And that is the way Ashcroft has responded. He chose to respond through a group called the Log Cabin Republicans. This is a gay group, a group of homosexual Republicans that for years has been a pariah among the social-conservative wing of the Republican Party that Ashcroft is so closely associated with. But Ashcroft issued a statement through the Log Cabin Republicans, saying in part -- and I quote -- "I have hired gay people to work with me throughout my career." It is just interesting to see Ashcroft at this point talking about how many gay people he has hired, using a group that, at one point, was such a pariah that even George W. Bush refused to meet with them during the Republican primaries just last year.</s>BLITZER: Jonathan Karl, on Capitol Hill, thank you very much. Former President Clinton, meanwhile, pardoned more than 100 people as he left office last Saturday, including a man on the run from the U.S. law enforcement authorities since 1983. CNN's Deborah Feyerick joins us now live from New York with more on one of the most controversial presidential pardons in years -- Deborah.</s>DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the presidential pardons of both friends and big-money donors has sparked outrage among a number of politicians. It's also raising eyebrows among historians, who say Clinton may have crossed a line.</s>DAVID EPSTEIN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Presidents throughout history have pardoned people for political reasons. But never before has there been pardons or a set or pardons issued that were really for contributory issues, really just to big-money contributors.</s>FEYERICK (voice-over): Like financier Marc Rich, indicted, among other things, for failing to pay $48 million in taxes. His ex-wife, a Manhattan socialite, raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for both of the Clintons and for the Democratic Party. As recently as December, she lobbied the president to pardon the Swiss-based fugitive. New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, as a U.S. attorney, indicted Rich in 1983.</s>MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK: And I think what the president did is an absolute outrage.</s>FEYERICK: Also sparking outrage: Clinton reduced the prison sentence of four ultra-Orthodox Jews convicted of bilking the government of $40 million. These Hasidic leaders had lobbied Mrs. Clinton during the Senate race. She received almost every vote from the small community. The president's brother and former Whitewater partner were also pardoned.</s>EPSTEIN: Giving pardons away to friends, giving them away to contributors, he raises the spectacle of being able to buy your way out of jail.</s>FEYERICK: Raising even more concern among critics, prosecutors were not consulted as they usually are, the U.S. attorney saying: "The facts of several of these cases in particular raise significant law enforcement concerns. The seriousness of the crimes is diminished. And the appearance of even-handed justice is compromised."</s>FEYERICK: Pardons are granted at the president's will, often in cases where someone has been unfairly convicted or when a sentence seems overly harsh. The president defended his choices his first day out of office.</s>WILLIAM J. CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You're not saying these people didn't commit the offense. You're saying they paid. They paid in full.</s>FEYERICK: A congressional panel has launched an investigation. Its chairman, Republican Dan Burton, a vocal critic of President Clinton's, has sent letters to several federal officials as well as attorneys demanding documents of clemency appeals, including that of Marc Rich -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: Deborah Feyerick in New York, thank you very much. Straight ahead: Marc Rich sees his indictment washed away. What does the man who helped indict him have to say about it? I'll talk live with New York Mayor and former U.S. Attorney Rudy Giuliani. Stay with me.</s>BLITZER: Welcome back. As we have just reported, President Clinton's last-minute pardon of billionaire Marc Rich has set off a torrent of criticism. The man who oversaw the indictment of Marc Rich in 1983 was the then U.S. Attorney Rudy Giuliani. He is now serving, of course, as New York's mayor. He joins us now live from New York. Mayor, thanks for joining us. And I just want to tell our audience what you obviously know: what the U.S. Constitution says about presidential pardons. There is a clause that says this: "He" -- referring to the president -- "shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States except in cases of impeachment." So there's no question, obviously, that what President Clinton has done, he has done constitutionally and legally, isn't that right?</s>GIULIANI: No question the president has virtually unlimited power to pardon anyone or release anybody from prison. That's always been the case, although I've -- I must say, I have never heard of a case in which a president has pardoned a fugitive. I mean, there have been some controversial pardons, but -- and even the president's own words that I saw quoted a few moments ago where he said, you know, that these people had paid in full. In the case of Mr. Rich, he's paid nothing, at least in terms of paid in full to the criminal justice system. So I don't know. I have no idea what the president did here. It is certainly very unusual -- I think unique -- that any president would pardon someone who's been a fugitive, much less a fugitive for 17 years.</s>BLITZER: The former independent counsel Ken Starr. I asked him a question, as you know. He's a former jurist. I asked him last Sunday whether what the president did was within his right as president, even though it was in the final hours of his presidency.</s>GIULIANI: Right.</s>BLITZER: Listen to what Ken Starr said last Sunday.</s>KEN STARR, FMR. INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: I don't question the authority or the prerogative of the president. That's why we elect the president. And he maintains that authority until the final moments of office. And so he exercised the discretion that's given to him under the Constitution.</s>BLITZER: So your point, though, is that because he was a fugitive, had not been convicted in court, in that sense he had not been serving any time, that that was unique or extraordinary.</s>GIULIANI: Yes. I mean, the Marc Rich pardon cries out for an explanation. There is no explanation for it beyond the fact that the president had the raw power to do it. And there is no explanation for why Marc Rich would be given a pardon. Generally, a pardon is given to someone who has served their sentence, paid their fine and acted in an exemplary manner or something approaching an exemplary manner for some period of time. It's a good thing. I agree with pardons. A lot of pardons the president granted and others have granted are controversial. It takes courage to do it. This one leaves a very, very large question, particularly in light of the fact that Marc Rich's family and others associated with him made very large contributions to the president, Mrs. Clinton and the Democratic Party.</s>BLITZER: Well, now, are you suggesting, Mayor, that there was some sort of payoff here to the president to grant this pardon to Marc Rich?</s>GIULIANI: I don't think it would be fair to suggest that there was a payoff. But I also don't think it would be fair to dismiss the question without an investigation.</s>BLITZER: And...</s>GIULIANI: I think the pardon power, like any other power, is one that has to be exercised prudently. And Congress has a right to look into it. For example, President Ford was called before Congress to explain his pardon to Richard Nixon, one that -- whether you agreed or you didn't agree with it -- it was quite apparent the reasons for it. Here, there is no apparent reason for the pardon. And if it isn't unique, it's highly unusual and questionable to ever grant a pardon to a fugitive. Just think of what it does to law enforcement. You also should remember about Marc Rich that the things he was charged with, I believe it was the most extensive tax-evasion case in the history of United States. But it also included trading with Iran during the hostage crisis and profiteering based on a period of time in which American lives were in jeopardy. Marc Rich then ran away, renounced his American citizenship and has lived as a fugitive since then. And on several different occasions -- more than several occasions -- had offered large sums of money as a way of buying his way out of this. So there's whole a history here that Congress really should look into. And maybe there's an innocent explanation. And maybe there isn't. And we can learn something from it. But we should find out what the explanation is.</s>BLITZER: And so, basically, what you're asking for are congressional hearings. Do you want former President Clinton to testify?</s>GIULIANI: That's -- I'm not conducting the hearings. I think the hearings should get to the bottom of it: What happened? How is it that a man who is involved in the biggest tax-evasion scheme in the history of the country, who has been a fugitive for 17 years, who was trading with Iran when American lives were in jeopardy and profiteering to the tune of millions and hundreds of millions of dollars, I mean, how does a man all of a sudden just, you know, get away with it, walk away without ever being held to answer for it?</s>BLITZER: Mayor, what does this say about the beginning of Senator Clinton's tenure here in Washington, about her involvement -- if there was any involvement -- with the pardon of Marc Rich?</s>GIULIANI: We don't know if there was or there wasn't. And, you know, I don't think we should get to that point. I think -- but I do think there should be a congressional investigation of that pardon and then, you know, possibly several of the others, but certainly that one.</s>BLITZER: You know, while we have you, Mayor, let's talk a little bit about the Bush administration, these first few days of the Bush administration.</s>GIULIANI: Give me a happier subject.</s>BLITZER: Are you happy with the way he's started off?</s>GIULIANI: Yes.</s>BLITZER: For example, you support a woman's right to have an abortion.</s>GIULIANI: I do.</s>BLITZER: Yet the first thing he did was to eliminate U.S. federal funding for international groups that counsel or provide abortions.</s>GIULIANI: I see that in very much the same way as I see his Cabinet. You know, we Republicans -- and I'm a moderate Republicans -- have been talking about a big tent for a long time. But a big tent doesn't mean we dominate the tent. I mean, a big tent means you are going to have some right-wing Republicans and some moderate Republicans. There will be some things that the president does that, maybe because of his own philosophy, that are a little different than ours. But, by and large, I think President Bush has gotten off to an excellent start. I think his Cabinet is a superior Cabinet, very well balanced, the full range of the Republican Party. I was very encouraged with Chairman Greenspan's testimony today, because I think one of the centerpieces of the Bush administration, the tax cut, is going to happen. It's going to happen early. And I'm one that believes it will have a big impact on the economy. So I'm -- I'm pretty happy with the way the administration has gotten started. In fact, it's such a breath of fresh air, I'm elated.</s>BLITZER: Mayor, we only have a few seconds left. I always ask you the same question at the end. How are you doing health-wise? I know you have had some radiation treatment for your prostate cancer.</s>GIULIANI: Yes, I got the last treatment a week ago. I just talked to my doctor today. And I'm doing pretty well. I think I'm going to make a full and complete recovery. And I'll be 100 percent pretty soon.</s>BLITZER: Well, we're all praying for you here.</s>GIULIANI: Ready to play in next year's Super Bowl.</s>BLITZER: I know you are getting ready to go to Tampa. I'm not going to ask you if want the New York Giants to beat the Baltimore Ravens.</s>GIULIANI: Go Giants. Go Giants! Defense!</s>BLITZER: I know the answer. All right, thank you very much, Mayor. We'll all be watching that Super Bowl with you. Thanks for joining us.</s>GIULIANI: Thank you.</s>BLITZER: Tomorrow night, by the way, I'll be talking with Jack Quinn, the attorney who lobbied President Clinton on behalf of Marc Rich -- the former White House counsel, Jack Quinn. Thank you. And after the break: The Coast Guard is called to rescue fisherman stranded on Lake Erie; and a decade after the end of the Cold War, new revelations that the Soviet Union captured and then copied one of America's most sophisticated aircraft.</s>BLITZER: Welcome back. Let's take a look at some other top stories we're covering tonight. This just in: CNN has learned that a plane carrying tourists has crashed in Venezuela. The plane crashed a short while ago about 280 miles southeast of the capital, Caracas. At least 22 people are confirmed dead. It is not known how many people were on board. We will, of course, continue to provide details as they become available. Two of the six surviving Texas fugitives appeared in a Colorado courtroom today, where their reputed ringleader, George Rivas, agreed to waive extradition back to Texas. All six convicts are facing capital murder charges. As for the investigation, authorities are looking over evidence, including a cache of weapons recovered during their capture this week. Dozens of fishermen are safe following a daring rescue on Lake Erie. The U.S. Coast Guard lifted to safety at least 21 people who had become stranded on four ice floes after the ice bridge they had been using disintegrated. Another 20 made it off the ice before it broke. Impeachment figure Linda Tripp is suing the Pentagon over claims her former bosses tried to sabotage her career. Tripp, who lost her job in the administration changeover, alleges the Pentagon illegally leaked information to a newspaper that she was willing to take a lower-paying Defense Department job in Germany. Tripp says the leaks were designed to embarrass and humiliate her. While our "Leading Edge" stories usually tend to focus on advances in technology, tonight we focus on a technological achievement more than 50 years ago. New revelations uncovered by the "Smithsonian Air and Space" magazine illustrate how the Soviet Union stole sophisticated U.S. technology during the Cold War. Here's CNN national security correspondent David Ensor.</s>NARRATOR: Bigger, faster and more effective than the B-17.</s>DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In 1944, after bombing missions against Japanese targets, three American B-29 Superfortresses made emergency landings in Vladivostok. Soviet leader Joseph Stalin ordered the planes seized and then put his police chief, Lavrenti Beria, in charge of thousands of engineers and workers, using fear and patriotism to drive the project, dismantling one of the planes, all 105,000 parts, creating blueprints and reproducing the bomber in just two years.</s>VON HARDESTY, AIR & SPACE MUSEUM: What he wanted to do was close a vulnerability with the West, to have an intercontinental long-range bomber equal to the B-29. And this became even more crucial after 1949 with the advent of the first Soviet atomic weapon.</s>ENSOR: It was a B-29 Superfortress, the Enola Gay, that was to drop the first American atomic bombs on Japan. (on camera): The one thing the Soviets couldn't reproduce were the plane's giant tires. Agents were sent to buy them at military- surplus sales in the West. David Ensor, CNN, Washington.</s>BLITZER: Welcome back. Time now to open our WOLF BLITZER REPORTS "Mailbag." Lots of reaction to our coverage of the capture of those seven escaped Texas prisoners, especially the decision to let two of them get air time with their complaints. Harry Barr e-mails us with this: "There is no way the convicted criminals should be allowed television interviews. Maybe a percentage of the public eats it up. But the fact is that these men gave up their rights, including the right of freedom of speech, when they committed and were convicted of crimes." P. York writes with this: "Wolf, when are we going to see the changes President Bush has made to the Oval Office? I'm interested in seeing how the office looks different from the way President Clinton had it decorated. Thanks." P. York, your wish is our command. Here is a still picture released by the White House. It shows the president walking into the newly decorated Oval Office. There it is. And there is a new carpet as well. That's all we have for you right now. When we get more pictures, including some video, we will bring that to you as well. By the way, here's a look at what the Oval Office used to look like -- here it is -- during the Clinton years. And there's the carpet. Finally, there was this nice note from Mathias Kammerer, reacting to all the mail encouraging us to take our show to the Caribbean, the islands of Grenada and Barbados: "Although I am not officially appointed, I consider myself an ambassador of the island of Anguilla, British West Indies, having lived and work here for the past five years. I highly recommend it as a retreat from your work in the public limelight. We offer exquisite beaches, total privacy and excellent food -- not much shopping, though." Mathias, it sounds pretty good to me, especially the part about "not much shopping." I hate to shop. Remember, you can e-mail me at wolf@cnn.com. I just might read your comments on the air. Please stay with CNN throughout the night. Kathy Lee Gifford is filling in for Larry King at the top of the hour. Her guest: Sarah Ferguson. Up next: Greta Van Susteren. She standing by in New York to tell us what she has -- Greta.</s>GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, "THE POINT": Wolf, well, tonight we have Representative Hulshof from the state of Missouri. He wants to talk about what Judge Ronnie White talked about last night here: former Senator Ashcroft and whether or not he should be the attorney general. I will also be joined by a panel -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: Greta, of course, we will be watching, as we do every night. For now, thanks very much for watching. Don't forget, tomorrow night, my interview with Jack Quinn: I will talk to him live about those presidential pardons. For now, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.