What Good are Guns?; Setting Sights on Action
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Erin, thanks. Good evening, everyone. We begin tonight with vital news about a man whose courage is inspiring. His name is Zaidoun Alzoabi. And for more than a year on this program, he has raised his voice from inside Syria, raised his voice to counter the lies repeatedly told by the regime of Bashar al- Assad. For more than a year, this man, Zaidoun Alzoabi, has defied the dictator, insisting on using his own name in interviews talking about the crimes he has seen the regime commit. He's done this knowing full well that at any moment the regime that has killed and tortured and disappeared so many could simply choose to silence him. Months ago I asked him why he was risking his life by talking, risking his life by insisting we actually broadcast his name.</s>ZAIDOUN ALZOABI, SYRIAN ACTIVIST: When I chant I want freedom. I can hear my voice for the first time in my life. Now how can I give up this? Even if it costs me my life.</s>COOPER: Imagine that. A grown adult hearing this voice for the very first time. Well, three weeks ago Syrian Secret Police arrested him and his brother Sohaib. Today we got great news. We learned that he has been freed. He says he became seriously ill during his detention, close to death in fact and was not given medical treatment. He is with his family tonight in Syria. His brother, Sohaib, though, remains in custody, and Zaidoun and his family fear for his safety. Zaidoun says he last saw his brother eight days ago and that he was in good spirits. You can go to a Facebook page the family has set up to get the latest on his brother's condition and find out how -- try to help secure his release. Relatives says Zaidoun thanks everyone worldwide especially this program and our viewers for keeping their story in the public eye, which we will continue to do as long as it takes, and we hope to speak with Zaidoun as soon as possible. Now, "Keeping Them Honest." The one true thing that we know about the gun debate here at home that neither side has monopoly on the truth or even the facts because the facts can be so hard to establish. One side has studies linking gun ownership with violent death. The correlation is in causation. The other side has research showing that when people are allowed to carry concealed weapons, violent crimes go down. Yet newer studies cast doubt on that conclusion. The bottom line, finding a way to study the problem and possible solutions to it would be hard enough even if this weren't already such a pressing and emotionally charged subject. But it is. So with the shortage of facts but a surplus of victims and anguish and loss the debate so far has evolved into passionately stated and mutually exclusive competing articles of faith.</s>WAYNE LAPIERRE, EXECUTIVE V.P., NRA: The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.</s>COOPER: Well, that one view, more guns in more places. Here's the other.</s>GOV. DANIEL P. MALLOY (D), CONNECTICUT: And when it come to preventing future acts of violence in our schools, let me say this. More guns are not the answer.</s>COOPER: That was Connecticut's governor, Dan Malloy. His view and Wayne LaPierre from the NRA, they each ring true to a whole lot of people. That's because each side can point to real-life gun incidents to prove their point. In a moment the political state of play. And we'll talk also with General Stanley McChrystal, his view of military- style firearms in civilian hands. But first, Randi Kaye with two very different gun stories. Take a look.</s>RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If you wonder whether or not good people armed with guns really do help prevent more gun violence look no further than the shooting inside this San Antonio theater in December. Around 9:30 p.m., December 17th, 19-year-old Jesus Manuel Garcia allegedly opened fire at the China Garden restaurant. Investigators say he was targeting his ex-girlfriend who worked there. Police say when the employees fled, the shooter chased after them in the parking lot, firing at them. In the chaos he also shot at a San Antonio patrol car after the officer shined a light on him.</s>SGT. RAYMOND POLLARD, BEXAR COUNTY, TEXAS SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: He was having a difficult time dealing with the break up and that's what may have set him off to come over here and commit this act.</s>KAYE: Garcia then followed the restaurant employees into the Mayan Palace movie theater next door. The gunman kept shooting as panic moviegoers poured out the exit doors.</s>MEGAN ROEL, MOVIEGOER: I could have died, you know? And I wouldn't have another day with my son.</s>KAYE: One of the f fleeing patrons was wounded. But so many might have died had it not been for a quick-thinking, off-duty sheriff's sergeant who also was armed. Sgt. Lisa Castellano, out of uniform, happened to be working security at the theater and ran toward the sound of the shooting. When Castellano spotted the suspect coming out of the bathroom with his gun drawn, she shot him four times.</s>LISA CASTELLANO, SHOT SUSPECT IN MOVIE THEATER: That was really nerve racking and it was -- it was -- I'm not going to lie, it was frightening, but, you know, the training kicks in.</s>KAYE: Garcia, the suspect, is charged with attempted capital murder and has not yet entered a plea. He survived, but more importantly so did everyone else in that movie theater, thanks to one of the good guys with a gun. (</s>On camera): But as we all know, not every shooting incident ends like the one in San Antonio. Those in favor of tighter gun controls might argue that good guy with a gun scenarios can make a bad situation even worse. (</s>Voice-over): Take what happened in Arizona, January 8th, 2011, when a lone gunman opened fire on Congresswoman Gabby Giffords at a community event. While Jared Lee Loughner was spraying Giffords and the crowd with bullets, an innocent bystander named Joe Zamudio was in a nearby drugstore buying cigarettes. When he heard the gunfire, Zamudio, who was legally armed with a pistol, ran to the scene. By the time he arrived his safety was off and he was poised to fire. Trouble is he almost shot the wrong man.</s>JOE ZAMUDIO, HELPED SUBDUE ARIZONA SHOOTER: As I approached the people wrestling with him the -- one of the other gentlemen actually had gotten the gun away from him. And that's what I saw first, was him holding the gun. And you know, I had my hand on my pistol.</s>KAYE: Zamudio has said he was incredibly lucky that he didn't shoot. Listen to what he told</s>MSNBC. ZAMUDIO: I saw another individual holding the firearm. I kind of assumed he was the shooter so I grabbed his wrist and, you know, told him to drop and forced him to drop the gun on the ground. When he did that, everybody says no, no, it's this guy. I would have shot him. I almost shot the man holding the gun.</s>KAYE: The man Zamudio almost shot was the hero who had tackled the real shooter and wrestled his gun away from him. Two very different shootings, two armed bystanders to the rescue, and the debate continues. Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.</s>COOPER: The debate certainly does continue and is growing. Vice President Biden meets tomorrow with the NRA. Gabby Giffords and her husband Mark Kelly, both gun owners by the way, have set up a lobbying group to press for new laws. New York's governor today called for his state to enact, and I quote, "the toughest assault weapons ban in the nation, period." His challenge sparking protests from gun advocacy groups. And on Monday, it will be four weeks since the Sandy Hook shooting. Perspective now from our panel. CNN political contributor and Republican consultant Margaret Hoover, "Daily Beast" senior political writer, Peter Beinart, and our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin. Peter, it is interesting just seeing these two different reports and these two different incidents. It is sort of a roar shack test, it just is a sign of how tough this debate is and how tough a task this task force has.</s>PETER BEINART, SENIOR POLITICAL WRITER, THE DAILY BEAT: Yes, but if you notice, the first story was about a police officer. She happened to be not on duty, but she was a police officer. No one disagrees that police officers should have guns and she said her training kicked in. That's what -- I bet you guys went and looked long and hard for a story like that. But the one you found was actually one that I don't think does any damage to the pro-gun control argument because it was a police officer. I don't think anyone is arguing that police officers, perhaps even off-duty police officers, shouldn't be armed. The second one seems to be much more like the actual situation you get when you have lots and lots of individuals running around trying to play vigilante.</s>COOPER: It's interesting. We picked that story because there are all these conspiracy theorists who were e-mailing us saying that we were afraid to tell that story because they point to that story as a sign of -- an indication where people being armed is a good idea, so just to kind of address the conspiracy theorists. Margaret, you actually say there's more common ground and things that the president could do by executive order that the NRA would actually give a thumbs up to. What -- where do you see it?</s>MARGARET HOOVER, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: There -- it may sound shocking, right? But the truth is, I'm much interested less in the politics of tomorrow than the policies and the common ground that can come from it. I mean the president has taken a lot of flack from people like Mayor Bloomberg for not doing enough on gun control so far in his administration. But there are things like enforcement, for example, 77,000 people have lied on criminal background checks about their -- whether they -- whether they could legally obtain a gun. They have been identified by the FBI, turned over to the Department of Justice, and not prosecuted by the Department of Justice. The administration could say prosecute people who are lying on their gun control -- on their -- on their background checks. There are also -- the National Instant Criminal Background Check mechanism is not fully funded by the federal government but could be, and that would prevent people like the shooter at Virginia Tech who had a mental illness in his background would have registered and when he went to go buy his gun it would have -- would have set a red flag that there's a mental illness in that -- this guy's background. Maybe he shouldn't be legally able to buy a gun. So there are things the federal government can do. Fully fund programs that are already in existence.</s>COOPER: Do you guys see that there's this program --</s>HOOVER: That the NRA wouldn't necessarily disagree with.</s>JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I totally disagree. There is no common ground in this argument.</s>HOOVER: What?</s>TOOBIN: The NRA -- there is zero common ground. The National Rifle Association and most of the United States Congress is against any sort of regulation of guns. Period. I mean --</s>HOOVER: That's simply not true. I mean, David Keen on this channel, on CNN, has said that he is in favor of not letting people who have mental illness be registered in this criminal background check registry.</s>BEINART: He also wants the gun show loophole which allows 40 percent of people who buy guns not to have to go through any background check.</s>HOOVER: That's a different point, though. The point of it, there is common ground.</s>COOPER: But also, what is the NRA response to actually then register anybody with a mental illness or register people which is -- I mean that's a nonstarter.</s>HOOVER: Well --</s>COOPER: You can't have a database of people who own guns but you can have a database of anybody who's what? Receives psychiatric counseling or -- how's that going to go?</s>HOOVER: I don't think that's what they say. I mean, we have to ask David Keen a follow-up question. But look, the NRA is in favor of this. To say that there's absolutely no common ground is defeating the purpose of this exercise. I mean --</s>TOOBIN: No, but --</s>HOOVER: Shouldn't -- I think the American public wants us to find common ground. I don't think, you know -- you know the NRA leadership at times defers from NRA membership. But the truth is, there are reasonable Americans who are gun owners like Gabby Giffords and her husband, and Republicans, responsible gun owners, who are willing to make reasonable concessions.</s>TOOBIN: Name -- name one Republican --</s>HOOVER: I just named three.</s>TOOBIN: Name one Republican member of Congress who is for any form of gun control today.</s>BEINART: Peter King. I mean, some of the few from --</s>TOOBIN: He's from the northeast.</s>BEINART: Remaining from the northeast.</s>HOOVER: And Mark Kirk and Susan Collins. And you can go through the list.</s>BEINART: No, but --</s>HOOVER: There are a lot of -- and not -- and by the way, this is not a Republican and Democratic issue.</s>BEINART: It is. It is.</s>COOPER: So what do you think is going to happen?</s>BEINART: I think what's going to happen is that they're going to --</s>TOOBIN: Nothing. What's going to happen is nothing.</s>BEINART: No, but the Obama administration is going to tee it up and do executive action and then bring it to 2014. I think they do believe that the politics of this have shifted enough that they can make some Republicans pay a price for not being willing to hold a vote.</s>TOOBIN: But, but remember. In 1994 the assault weapons ban passed and the Democrats got mauled at the polls afterwards and a lot of people remember that, especially in the west and the south, and you're right, Margaret, a lot of Democrats don't want to touch this issue either. But I'm just saying, there's no common ground here because the people who don't want common -- who don't want gun control, they don't want gun control and they recognize that they will pay a price politically for supporting gun control and they're not going to do it.</s>HOOVER: I think it is a total --</s>BEINART: There are not as many Democrats in those conservatives districts as they used to be and I think in the -- we've seen some of the conservative Democrats who still exist moving in response to the shooting in Connecticut.</s>HOOVER: Look, if you begin with a point that there is no possibility for common ground, we will get exactly nowhere. And the truth is --</s>TOOBIN: You think -- you think because I say it --</s>HOOVER: No, no, no, no.</s>COOPER: But Jeff, what are the guidelines right now on how far the government can go in restricting gun ownership by executive action?</s>TOOBIN: Very modest. I mean I think -- I think Margaret mentioned a couple of areas but when you talk about the significant things that can be done like banning assault weapons. President Obama can't do that himself. And remember guns are portable. And this is very much a state issue. And Mayor Bloomberg points this out all the time. That, you know, New York and Andrew Cuomo can -- can pass all the laws they want. But as long as guns are so easy to get in North Carolina and Virginia, which they are, they come up here and they are used in crimes up here. So, you know, unless you have national gun control, and unless states also regulate it, you're not going to have any serious --</s>HOOVER: To that point, I mean, one of the programs in the Bush administration was called Project Exile. What they did is they prosecuted under federal laws state violations because they are also violations of federal law. What did they do? They ended up locking up criminals, local criminals in federal courts to get them off the streets and the carry rate diminished by 50 percent. In other words, there are federal things that this administration can do now that would help gun control efforts, that don't require passage of Congress.</s>BEINART: But that -- didn't have to be either/or. I mean even if we were totally to concede to all of that, we could still say that because 40 percent of the guns are not -- are bought at a gun show or other places like that where there is no background check whatsoever, that even all the best enforcement of the current law wouldn't solve that problem. I think the most important meeting tomorrow was not the NRA. It's Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is the potential partner. Why? Wal-Mart has an economic incentive to end the gun show loopholes so people buy their guns at Wal-Mart rather than -- and if Wal-Mart gets behind the idea of saying that all guns have to be sold in a place where you could actually have a background check like Wal-Mart. That's a powerful ally for the president.</s>COOPER: Jeff, you actually wrote a piece in the "New York" recently looking at the Second Amendment.</s>TOOBIN: Right.</s>COOPER: Arguing that it's not quite what people think.</s>TOOBIN: Well, it's changed, dramatically. You know for 100 years the idea that the Second Amendment gave any one individual a right to keep and bear arms was, as Chief Justice Warren Burger said, a fraud. The idea that the Second Amendment gave you any rights at all. But a lot of Republicans and a lot of conservative intellectuals started making the argument that no, the Second Amendment does give individuals the right --</s>COOPER: Yes. That it was militias, not individuals.</s>TOOBIN: That it was only -- the militias. And in 2008 the Supreme Court agreed. The Supreme Court said yes, you do have an individual right. Now the extent of that right has not been clarified. Justice Scalia's opinion said individuals have -- can have handguns in the home but can -- they have handguns outside the home. Can they have bigger weapons? They can they have concealed carry laws? Those are still -- up for grabs and, you know, even if Congress manages to pass something, it's not at all clear it's going to be declared constitutional by the courts.</s>HOOVER: And to your point, I mean, Justice Scalia also said that the Second Amendment does not guarantee anybody who wants a gun the right to have a gun any time, any place, any where they want it. So -- I mean, the most conservative justice on the Supreme Court has said that there are limits to the Second Amendment.</s>COOPER: Well, we'll see if