Abramoff Back in Court After Pleading Guilty
PHILLIPS: We continue to wait for that live press conference from Roger Nicholson and Ben Hatfield, Hatfield. Hatfield the CEO of International Coal Group. Roger Nicholson, the general counsel for that company. We are waiting for them to step to the mics. We'll take it live as soon as it happens. Meanwhile, our other top story of the day, Jack Abramoff is back in court this hour, one day after pleading guilty to charges linked to his activities as a Washington lobbyist. Abramoff pleaded guilty minutes ago to charges stemming from his 2000 purchase of a fleet of gambling boats. Under a plea bargain, Abramoff is cooperating with prosecutors investigating his dealings with government officials and members of Congress. That has much of Washington on edge. CNN congressional correspondent Ed Henry standing by on Capitol Hill. As we wait for him, Ed, why are so many people in Washington concerned right now? Obviously, a lot of careers on the line.</s>ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, because clearly Jack Abramoff was somebody who had the ear of so many powerful people, most of the Republicans, but also some Democrats, may end up getting dragged in to this. And the fact of the matter is, I've talk to a lot of people close to the investigation who say that Jack Abramoff was somebody who was sort of a ferocious e-mailer on his BlackBerry, on his laptop, everywhere. And he wrote everything down. And prosecutors normally don't have that kind of evidence. And in this case, I've been told, there are thousands, maybe even tens of thousands of e-mails that Jack Abramoff was sending between his business partners, between himself and Congressional staffers that lay out in great detail a lot of the fraud, a lot of the corruption that was going on. And the bottom line is, that might end up being a very good road map for prosecutors trying to root out corruption and it may lead to a lot of roads beyond just Jack Abramoff, Kyra.</s>PHILLIPS: Ed, as we continue our discussion -- the live pictures that we were monitoring -- I don't know if you've been able to listen to it or not, was Alexander Acosta, the acting U.S. attorney. He's actually talking to reporters right now. We're monitoring that, to see what he has to say. Meanwhile, let's just talk about what you are hearing about the vulnerability of other leaders right now, leaders that have been tied to Jack Abramoff in one way or another. I mean, obviously, this is going to get a lot bigger.</s>HENRY: It's likely to get bigger but it's unclear yet. You're right to sort of be skeptical about, you know, where is this really heading? And the bottom line is, we hear so much about quid pro quos, where basically a lobbyist will give something and the quo would be them getting something back. We've heard a lot about the quid here, about people like Republicans like Bob Ney of Ohio, getting this trip to Scotland, the golf trip, you know, getting campaign money, getting other things of value that may have helped him. But the question is that prosecutors now are alleging in this plea deal with Jack Abramoff that the public officials did something, they did the bidding of Jack Abramoff's client. Number one, these lawmakers insist there's no wrongdoing, they did not do the bidding of his client. So that has to be proven. And number two, in talking to some former federal prosecutors, they say that's a pretty high bar to cross, to show intent for bribery, that the lawmakers actually had this intent that they were going to bribed, that they were along for it, and they actually did. To be able to tie an official action to the gifts -- that's going to be a long way down the road. It's one thing to accept a gift. It's another thing for these prosecutors to prove that there was a quid pro quo, Kyra.</s>PHILLIPS: It just seems -- you know, we were talking about this morning, about how blurred the lines are. Because do you say, OK, let's have a game of golf, OK, let's go on a trip, OK, I'll take those tickets to the football game. It's sort of -- I mean, is there something in black and white that -- what lobbyists can or can't offer and what a politician can say yes or no to? I mean, is it -- that, well, black and white or is it pretty much a gray area?</s>HENRY: I think you put your finger right on it. It's fairly gray. Sure, there are rules in the House of Representatives, for example, saying that if you're going to take one of these foreign trips to Scotland, a golf trip -- like Bob Ney took, like Tom DeLay, the former House majority leader took -- it has to be paid for by a non-profit. It can't be paid for by a lobbyist. In both case, the lawmakers say it was paid for by non-profits. Jack Abramoff now saying well, wait a second, the Bob Ney in particular was actually paid for in part by the lobbyist. It was not paid for by the non-profit. Now, you would think that was black and white. The lawmakers though are trying to say well, I didn't really know who signed the check. I think what a lot of observers in both parties are saying is wait a second. If you're going over to Scotland, you're playing golf, you're playing golf with a lobbyist, don't you ask some questions? Don't you get to the bottom of it? Now, these lawmakers are going to defend themselves and say, look there was no wrongdoing at all. I was told that the non-profit paid for it. But you can bet these prosecutors are not just going to take that at face value. They're going to dig in here. They're going to dig in hard. A government official has told CNN that two dozen lawmakers and congressional staff are being looked at. And that's what has a lot of people nervous, Kyra.</s>PHILLIPS: All right, Ed Henry. We'll keep following it all day of course. Thanks so much.</s>HENRY: Thank you.</s>PHILLIPS: Well, the Abramoff case is reviving long-standing concerns about the power of Washington lobbyists and whether their activities fuel a climate of corruption. Some critics say K Street, the Washington avenue where many lobbyists have their offices, now rivals Pennsylvania Avenue and Capitol Hill as a center of U.S. political power. CNN's Christine Romans takes a look at the business of influence.</s>CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It goes as far back as the days after the Civil War. One newspaper's description of the American lobbyist, quote, "stretched at full length on the floor of Congress, this dazzling reptile, this huge, scaly serpent of the lobby." A guilty plea from former power lobbyist Jack Abramoff.</s>CRAIG HOLMAN, PUBLIC CITIZEN: He certainly is not alone. Capitol Hill has an entire environment that just nurtures the kind of corruption through lobbying activity that we've seen from Jack Abramoff.</s>ROMANS: A culture, he says, in which campaign contributions are expected from lobbyists. They arrange fund-raisers, give gifts, arrange luxury travel for members of Congress and their staff. And then there's the promise of lucrative future employment. A former member of Congress can earn $1 million to $2 million a year as a lobbyist, a savvy congressional staffer, at least $300,000.</s>DANIELLE BRIAN, PROJECT ON GOVT. OVERSIGHT: Washington is just teeming with people who are paid to help push particular clients', particular industries' agenda. And it is not in any way necessarily the public interest's agenda they're pushing.</s>ROMANS: The numbers are astounding. According to the Center for Public Integrity, there are two drug industry lobbyists for each member of the Congress. Forty of those are former Congressmen themselves. Since 1998, 273 former White House staffers have registered as lobbyists. Public Citizen says there are now 2,390 former federal officials in the revolving door from public service to K Street, and almost half of outgoing Congressmen and women sign up to lobby their former colleagues. About 14,000 people now lobby in Washington, constantly working to influence Congress, the White House, and the press. Christine Romans, CNN, New York.</s>PHILLIPS: Bob Barr was a Congressman from Georgia from 1995 to 2003. Today, he's a registered lobbyist as well and a CNN contributor. Of course, I have all kinds of interesting questions for Bob today. Good to see you, Bob.</s>BOB BARR, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, thank you. And you have to remember, I'm just a poor CNN contributor. I don't make those kind of money that they were talking about there.</s>PHILLIPS: A poor, little, old registered lobbyist as well. All right, let's get back to when you were a Congressman. I want to start there. You know, you get up, you go to work, you go to your office. How often were you approached by lobbyists? How often would you say that happened? Daily basis, weekly basis?</s>BARR: Clearly on a daily basis. And lobbying is not all bad. There are many complex issues that appear before any member of Congress and United States senator and no member of Congress, no matter a rocket scientist or not -- you can't know all the ins and outs of every angle, of every piece of these complex pieces of legislation. So there are some very, very good and learned people who ply the hallways of the Congress to help explain these things. The key here, of course, is keeping your mind focused on the hidden agendas, to make sure that you protect yourself, that you check these things out, six ways to Sunday. And if you do that, if you're very careful and if you are, of course, honest, it's pretty easy to separate out the honest lobbyists from the others.</s>PHILLIPS: Well, give me an example, Bob. Think back during your career as a Congressman. Can you think of a situation -- let me ask you two questions. Can you think of a situation where you knew something was not right and you had to cut off the relationship or you basically had to say leave me alone, I can't do this, it's not going to work out. Can you think of an example?</s>BARR: There really wasn't. And I think the reason is this, Kyra. If you are, in fact -- and I'm not patting myself on the back here, but I think if you take those steps, if you insulate yourself, if you have good staff, if you check these things out, if you call on lobbyists and allow them into your office under very clear terms that you're not there to discussion your campaign, you're there to discuss specific legislation, you keep your eyes and ears open, they're not going to approach you for something that is improper because they know by the way you operate, the way you used your staff, the way you checked them out, that you're not going to allow that to happen.</s>PHILLIPS: Did Abramoff ever come to you?</s>BARR: I've met Abramoff a couple of times, but we've never dealt on any matters that had to do with lobbying or whatnot. He was a pretty regular fixture for several years up there on the Hill among Republican circles. But frankly, he -- you know, focused more on the big fish, not Bob Barr.</s>PHILLIPS: All right, Bob, stay with me for a second here. Susan Candiotti, I'm told, just came out of the courtroom, of course, where Abramoff was. Susan, tell me what it was like in the courtroom, the feel, what happened, and where do we go from here?</s>SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: First of all, Kyra, inexplicably, Jack Abramoff came to court today wearing a dark business suit and on his head, a white baseball cap, flanked by his two lawyers. Inside, the hearing was very brief. This, of course, was a time when he was to enter -- and did enter -- a guilty plea. He answered yes, sir to all of the judge's questions. And finally, when asked how he pleaded, he said "guilty, your honor" and appeared contrite, appeared, quite frankly, frightened, as he answered the judge's questions. He has, indeed, pleaded guilty to two of six counts in the case against him here in Miami, that was actually indicted before the case up in Washington, D.C., pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit wire and then mail fraud. The other four counts against him were dropped in return for his cooperation. And, again, this case involved -- according to the government, he is pleading guilty to cheating, in effect, a lender out of promising -- actually saying that he was going to make a cash contribution, a cash down payment of $23 million, to buy some floating casinos down here called Sun Cruise Casinos. Now, the U.S. attorney down here, the acting U.S. attorney, Michael (sic) Acosta, was heartened by this guilty plea.</s>ALEXANDER ACOSTA, U.S. ATTORNEY: As I said, I'm here to discuss terms of the plea. I think the plea is a good plea. It brings him to justice. He has plead to counts one and three. He will face, upon order of the court, significant jail time. He will face restitution.</s>CANDIOTTI: Now, the sentencing in this case is set for March 16th. However, that might change given what is happening up in Washington, D.C., because that case has yet to be fully played out, as well. Naturally, he's cooperating and has to cooperate in both cases to get the kind of light sentence he hopes to get. Back to you -- Kyra.</s>PHILLIPS: All right, Susan Candiotti, thank you so much. I want to bring back former Congressman Bob Barr now, also now a registered lobbyist and of course a contributor here to CNN. Listening to what Susan has to say, a lot of people wondering, will my name get mentioned, will my name be tied to Abramoff? How big do you think this is going to get, Bob, and are there a number of jobs at stake?</s>BARR: I think there are, Kyra, and I think this has the potential -- I'll explain why I used that word very carefully in just a moment -- to be a very, very far-reaching case with a lot of tentacles out there. But one really has to ask how far does the Bush administration want this case to go. Are they going to pull their punches? Jack Abramoff's influence goes back even before the Bush administration took office. It goes back to the very first days of the Republican majority for the first time in 40 years back in the 1994 election. So if you think back over that period of time, there are an awful lot of people, very high-up folks in the Republican party, who are potentially, you know, worried here.</s>PHILLIPS: All right, Bob Barr, thank you so much. A number of stories happening as you and I are even talking at this moment. Bob Barr, of course, we're talking about Jack Abramoff there, pleading guilty. We'll continue to stay on that story. But meanwhile, within the past ten minutes, you'll probably remember that pretty riveting news conference that we brought you from West Virginia University Hospital, where we heard from Randal McCloy's doctor, Dr. Larry Roberts. As you know, Randal McCloy, Jr., the only survivor in that devastating mine accident in Upshur County. And also with his doctor, Gayle Manchin, the wife to the governor of West Virginia, Joe Manchin. And, of course by her side, we also saw Anna McCloy, the wife of Randal McCloy, the sole survivor. And I believe we now have a live interview with Mrs. Manchin. Can you hear me OK, via our videophone?</s>MANCHIN: Yes, I can, thank you.</s>PHILLIPS: Well, I sure appreciate you giving us this interview. We've talked a lot to -- with your husband. Matter of fact, he was here for the bowl game on Monday when he came over and joined us here on LIVE FROM. And he talked about how he was in communication with family members, with you. He talked about his uncle. A lot of history in your family, Mrs. Manchin, with regard to those who worked in the mine. You know a lot about this industry and obviously the dangers that exist in this industry.</s>MANCHIN: Absolutely. Unfortunately, West Virginia has great history in this arena. And while the coal industry has been so important to this state, we have certainly paid the price over the years.</s>PHILLIPS: And I know that you have quite an influence on your husband. You've been married to him for 38 years. And there's been so much talk about what to do now. Not only taking care of the families, praying for the families, and making sure that everyone is getting the proper attention as they experience this hard time. But, you know, there's a lot of questions now on what to do about the safety of these mines. As the governor's wife, as a mother, as a very active woman in this community, in this state, what do you want to see happen, Mrs. Manchin, with regard to safety procedures and moving forward on how to help prevent situations like this?</s>MANCHIN: Well, I think as with anything, we want to continue to move forward and progress, make sure that we are doing everything in our power to make sure that our minds are as safe as they possibly can be. Education is critical across our state, both in the mining industry and also with mining. And across the state, that we make sure that the miners, their families, everyone, has the highest level of education.</s>PHILLIPS: These, obviously, Mrs. Manchin, are individuals that depend on this job to survive. It's in their -- it goes from generation to generation. It's in their blood, it's their livelihood. And they depend on the safety of this job. Tell me how you are encouraging family members and encouraging those to stay in the business and tell them how important it is, alongside the dangers, just to keep the economy going and surviving as a very important industry in your state.</s>MANCHIN: You know, I believe that people across this state understand that. They know that it is part of our environment, part of our heritage . And it's a very rich part of our culture and our heritage. And you're right, it does go down from generation to generation. And that's why it's so important that we continue to do everything we can to enhance the safety and the well-being for our miners and their family.</s>PHILLIPS: Well, there's definitely something else we realized about this community, about these families and about you and your husband -- and that is how strong all of you are spiritually, continually asking for prayers and support from the church. We saw how pivotal the church was there in the community. First of all, tell me how Anna is doing. You've had the chance to spend a lot time with her there at the hospital as she's by her husband's side.</s>MANCHIN: I think that I would say Anna is guardedly optimistic. Certainly getting to within be with her husband has meant a great deal to her, the fact she's been able to hold his hand. She believes that he has heard her and knows that she's there. And so that has meant a great deal. You know, we talk in West Virginia about believing in miracles. I think that comes from our faith. So I think right now her faith is helping to sustain her.</s>PHILLIPS: Gayle Manchin, the wife to West Virginia governor Joe Manchin. Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it today.</s>MANCHIN: Thank you, and we continue to ask for your prayers around this country. Thank you so much.</s>PHILLIPS: Believe me, there's a lot coming your way. Thank you so much. We're going to take a quick break. More LIVE FROM right after this.