Buyers Line up to Purchase 'My Life'
BLITZER: Welcome back. We're get something new information on interrogation techniques authorized by the Defense Department. Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, is standing by with details -- Jamie.</s>JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the Pentagon is now saying that when it releases documents later today it will show the Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, never authorized a controversial interrogation technique known as water boarding for use on detainees at Guantanamo Bay. That is contrary to what a senior defense official indicated to CNN yesterday. What we are now told is that the documents will show a series of aggressive procedures were requested by interrogators at Guantanamo Bay, and they included convincing detainees that death or severe pain could be imminent, exposure to cold weather or water, using a wet towel to induce a perception of suffocating -- that's the water boarding technique -- and mild, non-injurious physical contact. But we're told Secretary Rumsfeld only approved the last bullet item, the mild non-injurious physical contact that includes things like grabbing someone's arm, poking them in the chest, or some light shoving. Again, this is contrary to what a Defense Department official told CNN yesterday and resulted in our report yesterday, indicating that Rumsfeld had approved water boarding. This morning, on Capitol Hill, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said he was outraged by that report.</s>PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: I'd like to at least clarify one thing that's been seriously misreported for almost the last 24 hours by CNN claiming that Secretary Rumsfeld authorized some kind of extreme interrogation method in Guantanamo that I think they describe as water torture. That is wrong. CNN was told yesterday that it was wrong. They have continued running the story, until I'm told finally this morning at 8:30 they published a correction.</s>MCINTYRE: While Secretary Wolfowitz's sentiments are certainly understandable, just a couple of points. One, CNN did receive a call from the Pentagon last night, but at that point it was still not clear whether the story was inaccurate. As soon as CNN was convinced that the story was inaccurate this morning, we issued a correction right away. How could it happen, Wolf? Well, I can just tell you that I had a long discussion with a senior official who works closely with and for Defense Secretary Rumsfeld. And I came away with a completely different impression of what that official was telling me. Now, whether I misunderstood or whether I was misinformed is something that honest people can debate. The bottom line, though, is the story was not accurate. And we are correcting it because that's what CNN does -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: And just to be precise on this point -- it's very sensitive, I understand, Jamie -- this senior Pentagon official close to the defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, his suggestion was that you simply misunderstood, that he never said that the defense secretary had approved this water boarding, this form that some call torture?</s>MCINTYRE: Well, let's just say that we had another discussion today in which it was clear that the understanding that we had yesterday was not the same understanding we had today. As I said, you can put it down to an honest misunderstanding, it could have been some confusion. I don't want to, you know, attribute motives to anybody, but let's just say that what we were told yesterday is not what we were told today. And we are told we'll see the very memos themselves today, and everyone will be able to read them for themselves and make their own judgments about what they show.</s>BLITZER: OK. Jamie McIntyre at Pentagon, clarifying that point. Thanks, Jamie, very much. The president's national security adviser, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, went to Capitol Hill this morning to meet with Republican lawmakers on the conflict in Iraq, as well as the transition of power scheduled for June 30. Two members of Congress have, in fact, just returned from the war zone. We're going to get their impressions right now. Congressman Adam Smith is a Democrat from Washington State. Congressman Steve King is a Republican from Iowa. Congressmen, welcome back. Thanks very much for joining us. I wonder if you'd both care to respond to this notion. How far -- how far should the U.S. go in trying to get information out of suspected terror detainees?</s>REP. ADAM SMITH (D), WASHINGTON: Well, I'm not an expert, obviously, in security and interrogation, but from what I've been told, I mean, there are no methods of doing this. And, in fact, torture is not a particularly effective method of getting accurate information. There is a variety of different ways to make those inquiries. And we have a lot of people, both civilian and certainly in the military, who know how to do that. And I think they ought to use those methods. But, you know, taking it up to the torture level, everything that people have told me is it's not even very effective. And it certainly has an impact on public opinion.</s>BLITZER: Is there ever room for torture, Congressman King?</s>REP. STEVE KING (R), IOWA: I would say that we should use the methods that we can use and stay within international law, and that protecting and saving American lives and our mission in Iraq is of paramount importance. So that decision within -- within the boughs of international law would be where I would ask the Department of Defense to stay.</s>BLITZER: All right. You just -- both of you just back from Iraq right now. I want your bottom-line assessment. This June 30 handover, for example, do you see some light at the end of tunnel there?</s>KING: Well, we know that the violence has been escalating, building up to June 30. We anticipate there will be significant efforts on the part of al Qaeda and the insurgents until then. That is light at the end of tunnel, although I don't think it's the last tunnel. It's one of the last tunnels maybe for our United States military. But the transition from June 30 on their elections, maybe the end of January, is the time also that we'll see, I think, violence increase before our November elections and then again before the elections, and maybe during the elections that the free Iraqis will have in January of 2005.</s>BLITZER: Congressman King?</s>SMITH: That's OK. First impression was that the troops are doing an incredible job over there. I mean, I was amazed. It's 115 degree heat, they're all dedicated to their job. They believe in the mission. They believe in what they doing -- they're doing. I think they're making a difference. And you just can't help but be impressed by that. The second thing is they've got two major challenges. One is the security situation, which is not under control enough in the country. And the second is the infrastructure, building, you know, the basic electricity, garbage, sewage, water, health care systems.</s>BLITZER: Is this mission impossible or mission doable?</s>SMITH: No. No. I mean, the mission is absolutely doable, but it's going to be difficult and it's going to be more difficult than the administration anticipated. And it's going to take longer. But I think you can certainly see that the Iraqis, the new prime minister, the new group, it's going to make a difference to get Iraqis in charge of Iraq. That's what's really important. They're not going to support our troops in an occupation. They want to support their own people. We've got to get them to the point where they can take over.</s>BLITZER: And a lot of Americans are wondering how many more lives, U.S. troops are going to be lost, how many more billions of dollars are going to be spent. Is it all worth it?</s>KING: We have really two choices. And one is to complete the task in Iraq and promote and establish a free government for a free people in Iraq. And that becomes then the loadstone Arab nation for a freedom to echo throughout the Arab world. If that happens, we can see the end of the war on terror. If we don't do that, if we withdraw or recede from there and leave the Iraqis to themselves, then our other alternative in this war on terror is simply come back to the United States, turn the United States into one huge Israel, and guard every bus stop and every theater and every hospital, and still see our women and children blown to bits by terrorists who believe their path to salvation is in killing us.</s>BLITZER: Do you agree with that, Congressman Smith?</s>SMITH: Well, I don't disagree with it. I do think that along the way we've unnecessarily damaged our credibility and made the mission more difficult. I think in the way the war in Iraq was pitched, not just us here domestically, but to the outside world, a number of those things have turned out not to be true. It's undermined our credibility and made it more difficult for us to get the international support we need. Because doing what Congressman King said is certainly important. That's a piece of it. But if the rest of the world is totally against us, we're still going to be in a disadvantageous position. We've got to figure out some way to get them on our side.</s>BLITZER: Congressman King, some disturbing numbers for the White House in The Washington Post-ABC poll that just came out this morning. "Who do you trust to do a better job on terrorism?" In May, May 20 to 23, 52 percent said Bush, 39 percent said Kerry. But now, only a month later, 47 percent say Bush, 48 percent say Kerry on an issue that so many Republicans thought was the president's strongest card in the -- card going into the election.</s>KING: Well, I can tell you what I heard from U.S. soldiers in Iraq consistently on that, and that is that they believe and I believe that there's been just a relentless effort to report only the bad news coming out of Iraq and the Middle East. And the good work that's being done over there and the progress that's being made is not -- is not soaking into the consciousness of the American people. So it's understandable that the public would start to lose confidence if they didn't hear about five million Iraqi children being inoculated against communicable diseases and 2,500 schools being rebuilt. The list goes on, hospitals, roads, sewers and oil production and electricity production, not to mention the best ambassadors that we have over there are the American soldiers playing soccer with Iraqi kids.</s>BLITZER: All right. We're getting some very disturbing word -- word in right now, Congressman. Al Jazeera, the Arabic language television network, reporting that that South Korean hostage that we saw on videotape pleading desperately for his life apparently has been executed by his Iraqi captors. Al Jazeera simply reporting the South Korean hostage, a businessman, a 31-year-old businessman -- we're showing viewers the picture, and all of us heard that appeal, the heart-wrenching appeal that he had to save his life -- apparently has been killed. Al Jazeera says he has been killed. This is very disturbing what's going on, the beheading of the American, Paul Johnson, in Saudi Arabia, Nicholas Berg beheaded in Iraq. If this Al Jazeera report, Congressman Smith is true, the beheading -- I don't know if it's a beheading, but the killing of this South Korean businessman, it demoralizes a lot of people watching what's going on.</s>SMITH: Well, two points. First of all, on the poll numbers you mentioned, I also want to say that I think Senator Kerry has done a great job in recent months in talking about his plan for security, his plan to take on terrorism. And I think people are impressed with that plan. And I think that is making a difference. And certainly, it's incredibly disturbing what's going on in Iraq. But it is -- it's not like the terrorists weren't doing this before Iraq or before Afghanistan. I mean, they have said repeatedly they have no respect for human life. It means nothing to them, and they will kill whoever they have to kill to advance their -- whatever those interests are. So I don't think we can say just because of Iraq this is happening. We have got to stop these people from doing these things. But it's more complicated than just doing in it in Iraq.</s>BLITZER: Congressman King?</s>BLITZER: What is the most important military requirement right now to deal with this threat?</s>KING: We need to be successful in establishing a peaceful and democratic government in Iraq. And we can do that, and we're not in any kind of tactical risk whatsoever. That will be done. But to -- we've got to win the hearts and minds of the Arab world. I spoke with Benazir Bhutto over a year ago about this and I asked her, "How do we win? How do we declare victory?" And her answer was, "You've got to give people freedom. You've got to give them hope. You've got to give them democracy." It's going to be a bloody road to there. And it will be a long, hard slog.</s>BLITZER: Very quickly, you want to button this up for us, Congressman?</s>SMITH: Well, the only thing I would say is I'd put that differently. If we say we have to give it to them we're going to be in trouble, we have to create the conditions where they can take it. They're not of the mind to trust the west to give them what they want. We have to figure out a way to work with them, not to be seen as the ones who are dictating everything. And that's a difficult task.</s>BLITZER: All right. Congressman Adam Smith, thanks very much for joining us. Steve King, thanks to you as well. We're going to take a quick break. More coverage when we come back, including more on this Al Jazeera report on the South Korean businessman.