Ken Lay's Legacy; Emmy Nominations
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to the program. I'm Miles O'Brien.</s>CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Carol Costello in this week for Soledad. Here's a look at what's happening this morning. North Korea says more missile tests are on the way, calling them a matter of self-defense. This, as a top American diplomat arrives in South Korea to huddle with allies in the region. President Bush is preparing to host Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper at the White House this morning. Topping the agenda, lumber trade and of course the North Korean missile test. The prime minister due to arrive in just about two hours. A winner now emerging in Mexico's presidential election, conservative Felipe Calderon leads by just one-hundredth of a percentage point. Nearly 98 percent of the votes tallied so far.</s>O'BRIEN: In southern Iraq, at least 11 are dead after a car bombing near a Shiite mosque in Kufa. Another 51 wounded. Most of the victims are Iranian Shiite pilgrims. Israeli tanks rolling into northern Gaza. The move apparently meant to keep Palestinian militants from launching rockets into Israel. The army saying militants fired two rockets yesterday. And expect to hear a message from one of the London subway suicide bombers. That's what they're saying on the Web sites. The video also said to include a message from an American member of al Qaeda. Tomorrow, the first anniversary of those attacks in London.</s>COSTELLO: And in just about two hours, Colorado police will release new documents linked to the Columbine shootings, including diaries kept by the shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. The teens killed 12 students and a teacher back in 1999. New York's Supreme Court is preparing to rule this morning on same-sex marriage. The decision could have far-reaching consequences. New York has the largest gay population in the country and has no laws barring out-of-staters from getting married. Space shuttle Discovery preparing to do a somersault that will expose the shuttle's belly and those heat protecting tiles to the space station crew. They will have some telephoto lenses on some cameras, take a few pictures and make sure everything is OK for them to come home. All this begins at 9:43. Should be some great pictures. And you'll see them here, of course, on CNN. Kenneth Lay dying suddenly yesterday. Kenneth Lay becoming, through all of his travails in Houston, a poster boy for corporate greed. Question now, what next? What next for those thousands of people who lost so many millions of dollars in retirement money as a result of that corporate scandal? Peter Elkind is Editor-at-Large for "Fortune" magazine and he's co-author of the book "The Smartest Guys in the Room," the best book there is about the Enron collapse. Good to see you, Peter. Thanks for being with us.</s>PETER ELKIND, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Good to be with you.</s>O'BRIEN: I've got to say, when people first hear this, I think their first reaction is is this a suicide? What are we seeing so far from the autopsy and toxicology tests?</s>ELKIND: There were all kinds of rumors yesterday because this was a shock, but the report -- the preliminary report from the medical examiner is absolutely natural causes. He had heart disease and had a heart attack.</s>O'BRIEN: All right. And you have every reason to take that at face value at this time?</s>ELKIND: Absolutely, yes.</s>O'BRIEN: All right. What about people who were trying to seek compensation? These are people who have lost their 401(k) savings. They were encouraged by Ken Lay to put all their eggs in that basket, that Enron basket, and they lost so much. Does this, in any way, change their opportunity, if they had much of one in the first place, to try to get some money from Lay, or in this case now, Lay's estate?</s>ELKIND: It won't change it in a meaningful way. Lay was never going to have much money that was enough money to flow in a significant way to the victims of Enron. But it does make it difficult or perhaps even impossible for the government to go after his estate criminally, but it will be pursued in a civil basis and it will be pursued in terms of civil lawsuits as well.</s>O'BRIEN: How much money is there, do you think?</s>ELKIND: At most, a few million dollars, and given how much so many people lost, it's not going to be meaningful.</s>O'BRIEN: Walk us through a little legal technicality here. He has died here after his conviction, but before his sentencing, and certainly before he had an attempt to file an appeal, which was, I guess, pretty much a certainty. Technically, the conviction is wiped away, is that how that goes?</s>ELKIND: Yes. Well, I'm not a lawyer, I'm just married to one.</s>O'BRIEN: All right.</s>ELKIND: But that's my understanding is that it's almost certain that the conviction will be wiped away because he has not had a final conviction which was able to withstand an appeal. So that's where it stands legally.</s>O'BRIEN: The fact that there won't be a final conviction on the books, if there ever are civil cases here, does that affect the civil cases in any way?</s>ELKIND: I don't know. I just don't know how that all...</s>O'BRIEN: All right.</s>ELKIND: Probably not is the short answer.</s>O'BRIEN: Getting into some deep legal water there.</s>ELKIND: Yes.</s>O'BRIEN: I apologize. All right.</s>ELKIND: I'm in over my head.</s>O'BRIEN: You got to know Ken Lay from doing your book and ultimately the documentary in ways that few journalists have. Did you see a different Ken Lay during this trial? Was he buckling under stress, do you think?</s>ELKIND: There's no question that when he took the witness stand, he was a different Ken Lay than anyone had seen.</s>O'BRIEN: Really?</s>ELKIND: He was surly, he was gruff, he was arrogant. And that certainly is a part of his personality, but it wasn't shown in public before.</s>O'BRIEN: Well, yes, I mean you say that's part of his personality. I hadn't seen that or heard much about it before. You had heard about it.</s>ELKIND: Yes, we have seen -- you could see that, as you spoke to people, you heard about aspects of that. And certainly in terms of the way he managed Enron and the way he spoke about California and some of the things Enron did, but you'd never seen it as visible in public in that way.</s>O'BRIEN: Help us tap into an emotion that is running here, and that is a sense almost of anger, almost as if people who are seeking justice here feel as if they have been robbed, that Ken Lay in dying has escaped punishment.</s>ELKIND: Yes. No, I understand that feeling, and there's a lot of people out there that feel as though they've been somehow cheated because Ken Lay wasn't going to be rotting in jail for 20 years. But in my view, justice has been served. He's paid a big price and the message has gone out. He was convicted. The facts of Enron were aired and he was found guilty. And I think the message has gone out and I think he's paid the price and so has his family.</s>O'BRIEN: And he dies in disgrace and his legacy will always be intermingled with this. This leaves...</s>ELKIND: No question about that.</s>O'BRIEN: ... just Skilling, his co-defendant, co-business operative there at Enron. Does the blame shift in his direction more than it has in some way?</s>ELKIND: I really don't think so. I think legally he's going to be treated exactly the same way. He was facing a stiff punishment, as was Lay. I don't think that will change in any way. I think he's looking at 20-plus years.</s>O'BRIEN: Peter Elkind, "Fortune" magazine and co-author of the book "The Smartest Guys in the Room," thank you very much.</s>ELKIND: Good to be with you.</s>O'BRIEN: All right -- Carol.</s>COSTELLO: We are just moments away from the announcement of this year's primetime Emmy nominations. Entertainment correspondent Brooke Anderson is live in Los Angeles awaiting the ceremony. I hear the noise behind you.</s>BROOKE ANDERSON, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Do you hear the buzz, the murmur?</s>COSTELLO: I do.</s>ANDERSON: There are about 200 journalists in here, Carol, national and international journalists, Brad Garrett and Julia Louis- Dreyfus. I think you can see Brad walking down the stairs right now. They just entered the room, because they will be announcing the primetime Emmy nominations in just a couple of minutes, and we will take them live. But everyone here is very excited. And some names you can expect to hear. First, I want to talk about "Grey's Anatomy." This steamy medical drama was eligible for best drama last year, but was not nominated. You may remember its fellow ABC show "Lost" got a whole lot of buzz, was nominated there, went on to win. "Lost" was nominated 12 times. But expect that attention to go to "Grey's Anatomy" this year. But you can never count out "The Sopranos," Carol, Tony and his gang. They were not eligible last year due to a production hiatus, but they are back. We're looking for them to get a nod in the best drama category. And we're particularly looking at James Gandolfini and Edie Falco. They are Emmy darlings. Have both won multiple times in the past, so expect to hear their names as well. Over on the comedy side, it's all about Steve Carell. Everyone is saying he is the man to beat. "The Office" got off to a slow start last year, but then it was gaining momentum. He's a huge star, both on the big and the small screen. And many believe that he will be called out here today and that he will probably go on to win the Emmy this year. But his competition is pretty formidable with many talented actors, including Jason Lee from "My Name is Earl" and also Jeremy Piven from "Entourage." So, Carol, in just about one minute, the announcements will start.</s>COSTELLO: We've got to kill some time then, don't we? Would those constitute the dark...</s>ANDERSON: We can do that.</s>COSTELLO: Yes. The dark horses? Would "The Office" be considered a dark horse?</s>ANDERSON: Not so much this year, Carol, but there are a number of dark horses. And you know the voting process has changed this year, which many hope will blow open the entire voting scene and allow some fresh faces, some shows, some names that have been overlooked for years, to finally get in. They'll take all the contenders, whittle them down to 15 in the lead acting categories and 10 in the drama and comedy categories. And then they'll take a closer look with the blue ribbon panel and then say, OK, here are your five nominees. So there's an extra round of voting. And people are hoping that leaves room for people, like, say Lauren Graham from "Gilmore Girls." Been on the show six seasons, never been nominated. One Emmy prognosticator said it's the black eye of the academy. But I hear we're counting down, three, two, one.</s>COSTELLO: I do.</s>ANDERSON: Let's go now to the Emmy nominations live -- Carol.</s>COSTELLO: All right. And Brad Garrett, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. Here we go.</s>DICK ASKIN, CHAIRMAN & CEO, ACADEMY OF TELEVISION ARTS AND SCIENCES: I'm Dick Askin, Chairman and CEO of the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. On behalf of the Television Academy, welcome to the 58th Annual Primetime Emmy Award announcements. Joining me to present the nominations are Emmy winner Julia Louis-Dreyfus, currently starring in CBS series "The New Adventures of Old Christine" and three-time Emmy winner Brad Garrett, star of the upcoming FOX series "Till Death."</s>BRAD GARRETT, ACTOR: Thank you very much, -- Dick.</s>ASKIN: Thank you.</s>GARRETT: Thank you, Dick.</s>JULIA LOUIS-DREYFUS, ACTRESS: I think...</s>GARRETT: Yes.</s>LOUIS-DREYFUS: ... that that was actually for me.</s>GARRETT: You know you're...</s>LOUIS-DREYFUS: Yes.</s>GARRETT: I'm -- you're right, that didn't...</s>LOUIS-DREYFUS: That's all right. No, no, it's fine.</s>GARRETT: It's so early. I think you are lovely. You are lovely.</s>LOUIS-DREYFUS: Thank you. Good morning, everybody.</s>GARRETT: Julia, would you like to start us off, please?</s>LOUIS-DREYFUS: Yes, I would. Thank you very much, Brad. The nominations in the drama series category are "Grey's Anatomy," "House," "The Sopranos," "24" and "The West Wing."</s>GARRETT: The nominations for lead actress in a drama series are Frances Conroy "Six Feet Under," Geena Davis "Commander in Chief," Mariska Hargitay "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit," Allison Janney "The West Wing" and Kyra Sedgwick "The Closer."</s>LOUIS-DREYFUS: The nominees for lead actor in a drama series are Peter Krause "Six Feet Under," Denis Leary "Rescue Me," Christopher Meloni "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit," Martin Sheen "The West Wing" and Keifer Sutherland "24."</s>GARRETT: The made-for-television movie nominations are "Flight 93," "The Flight That Fought Back," "The Girl in the Cafe," "Mrs. Harris" and "Yesterday."</s>LOUIS-DREYFUS: The nominees for the miniseries category are "Bleak House" Masterpiece Theater, "Elizabeth I," "Into the West" and "Sleeper Cell."</s>GARRETT: The nominees for lead actress in a miniseries or a movie are Gillian Anderson, "Bleak House" Masterpiece Theater, Kathy Bates "Ambulance Girl," Annette Bening "Mrs. Harris," Judy Davis "A Little Thing Called Murder" and Helen Mirren "Elizabeth</s>I." LOUIS-DREYFUS: The nominees for lead actor in a miniseries or a movie are Andre Braugher "Thief," Charles Dance "Bleak House" Masterpiece Theater, Ben Kingsley "Mrs. Harris," Donald Sutherland "Human Trafficking" and John Voight "Pope John Paul</s>II." GARRETT: Here are this year's nominees for reality competition program "The Amazing Race," "American Idol," "Dancing With the Stars," "Project Runway" and "Survivor."</s>LOUIS-DREYFUS: For lead actor in a comedy series, the nominees are Steve Carell "The Office," Larry David "Curb Your Enthusiasm," Kevin James "The King of Queens," Tony Shalhoub "Monk" and Charlie Sheen "Two-and-a-Half Men."</s>GARRETT: The nominees for lead actress in a comedy series are Stockard Channing "Out of Practice," Jane Kaczmarek "Malcolm in the Middle," Lisa Kudrow "The Comeback," Debra Messing "Will & Grace" and Julia Louis-Dreyfus "The New Adventures of Old Christine." Congratulations.</s>LOUIS-DREYFUS: Thank you.</s>GARRETT: OK, Julia, this, as you know, has been a lot of fun.</s>LOUIS-DREYFUS: Yes, indeed.</s>GARRETT: But let's get back so Dick can announce our final category. Dick Askin, everybody.</s>ASKIN: Congratulations, that's great.</s>LOUIS-DREYFUS: Thank you, thank you.</s>ASKIN: Number eight.</s>LOUIS-DREYFUS: Thank you.</s>ASKIN: Thank you. The nominations in the comedy series category are "Arrested Development," "Curb Your Enthusiasm," "The Office," "Scrubs" and "Two- and-a-Half Men." Find out who takes home the Emmy for all our categories when the primetime Emmy awards are broadcast on Sunday, August 27 on the NBC television network. Julia, Brad, thanks for a great job this morning. And to all our nominees, good luck at the Emmys. Be sure to join us on August 27. Have a great day.</s>LOUIS-DREYFUS: All right.</s>COSTELLO: All right. So the Emmy nominees are in for some instant analysis. We turn to our TV maven. I hope that's the right title for you. But Bradley Jacobs our friend from "US Weekly" is here to explain this. We didn't hear all of the Emmy nominees, so...</s>BRADLEY JACOBS, SENIOR EDITOR, "US WEEKLY": Just the highlights.</s>COSTELLO: Just the highlights, but the shows that got the most, "Grey's Anatomy" got 11 and "24" actually got the most with 12.</s>JACOBS: And I think that signifies essentially what we saw this morning was, which was that there were not tons and tons of surprises. A lot was written about how the voting had changed. They were hoping that a lot of the second-tier networks like UPN and the WB and FX would get nominations this year. But if you noticed, it was a lot of the same shows that got nominated again. "The West Wing" which just went off the air after seven years.</s>COSTELLO: And it wasn't very good this season either.</s>JACOBS: No, it was kind of, you know, critically panned. But you know Martin Sheen got a nomination, Allison Janney has been nominated and four times before got a nomination, you know. Same thing with, I noticed "Six Feet Under" also went off the air this year, but Francis Conroy got a nomination, Peter Krause got a nomination. So you weren't seeing a complete, it wasn't a huge change. Lauren Graham, who Brooke referred to in the intro, you know, people were talking about her for "Gilmore Girls." She still didn't get a nomination. So these rules didn't change it hugely.</s>COSTELLO: Can you give us the rule change in a nutshell and make it matter to people? Because you know whenever you watch the Emmys, you say to yourself, the same old people are going to win. There will be no surprises, and there usually aren't. So...</s>JACOBS: Right. Well, there were -- you know there were a few more surprises this time. It wasn't hugely, radically different. The rule changes are sort of complicated, but it has to do with tiers. Like there was a blue ribbon panel that was selected to narrow it down from the huge number of votes that came in. So people were hoping that it might change it a little bit, and you know, there were some surprises. "Two-and-a-Half Men," for instance, one of the most successful sitcoms on TV, you saw Charlie Sheen get nominated.</s>COSTELLO: But it's not good. I mean truly, does any critic think that show is a great show and that Charlie Sheen is an Emmy award-winning actor?</s>JACOBS: No, but it is a ratings winner. And that's why you saw you know you saw "The Office" also got nominated, and you saw, you know, some of the -- some of it did work. I mean, some of the new hits did get nominated, but there were a lot of sort of old-timers in there, too.</s>COSTELLO: Yes, there were, including some from "Will & Grace," which how many more times can they be nominated? Thank you very much, -- Bradley...</s>JACOBS: Exactly.</s>COSTELLO: ... Jacobs for joining us this morning from "US Weekly."</s>JACOBS: Thank you.</s>O'BRIEN: Instant analysis from Bradley Jacobs, always on target. Thank you very much. Coming up, it looks like it might be fun. Take a look. Sold out concert, right? Actually, this is church. But wait a minute, that's not supposed to be fun, is it? A lot of people are saying why not? And parents, you better listen up. If you want to keep your kids healthy and flu-free, well, you might be doing precisely the wrong thing. We'll tell you, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.