NBC's Big Mistake About Michael Cohen
STELTER: Back now on RELIABLE SOURCES. On Thursday, NBC thought it had a huge scoop. The network reported that authorities had Michael Cohen on a wiretap, listening in on his calls. It turned out, the authorities only had a log of his calls. They were not listening in. NBC issued a correction four hours later, and President Trump pounced, saying NBC is as bad as CNN. Of course, some on Fox News used this error to bash the media as a whole. And so, the story continues. Who's lying, who has less credibility, et cetera? Let's dig into it with a trio of authors starting with Amanda Carpenter, a CNN political commentator and author of the brand new book, "Gaslighting America: Why We Love It When Lie to Us". Jon Meacham also here, former editor-in-chief of "Newsweek," he's the author of the next book "The Soul of America: The Battle for Our Better Angels," out on Tuesday. And David Cay Johnston is here, the founder of dcreport.org, author of "It's Even Worse Than You Think: What the Trump Administration is Doing to America". Amanda, first to you. The president, as he so often likes to do, he tweeted a falsehood about NBC. He said they probably just made up their sources. Now, to be clear, NBC made a bad mistake, but it shows -- the correction shows that at least journalists do what the president doesn't do, correcting errors when they come up.</s>AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, and this is the problem that poses anyone who tries to take on Trump and criticize him whether you're a political opponent or a reporter, you really have to be perfect. He is a player that fights dirty but will exploit any weakness that you have. And it's a really tough dynamic to participate in, but it's the truth and especially when he's waging this war on the press, if there's any slight mistake that's made, you'd better believe he's going to blow it up. And you know what, that's not the worst thing because it challenges all of us to be better.</s>STELTER: To raise our game, yes. Jon Meacham, in your book, you write about McCarthy, Murrow's response to McCarthy. And I want to put this quote on screen because I think it applies to today as well. You wrote: One journalist of the era observed what could I do? I had to report, quote, from McCarthy. How do you say in the middle of your story, this is a lie? I think journalists are wrestling with that same problem today.</s>JON MEACHAM, FORMER NEWSWEEK EDITOR: Absolutely, 70 years on. The Trump playbook, if you will, on dealing with the media and confronting it constantly comes straight out of Joe McCarthy and Roy Cohn. And in the way God sometimes does these things, we don't have to make that much of a leap because Roy Cohn was the lawyer for both men. And what happened in the McCarthy era he would attack the media. He would -- he knew exactly when deadlines were. He would call in the afternoon wire reporters with 30 minutes to go and announce a story. It didn't give them time to check it out. They felt that a U.S. senator talking about communism was intrinsically newsworthy and there was a big debate about whether newspapers should actually call out a lie is a lie.</s>STELTER: And do you think journalists are getting it right today? Are we making those same mistakes again or are we getting it right now?</s>MEACHAM: I think it depends on, to quote Bill Clinton in a way, it depends on what you mean by journalists. I think there are a number of news outsets which think of as more traditional that are doing a terrific job and it's kind of a golden age. There are some outlets that are essentially extensions of the administration. And I think it requires educated, intelligent consumers of news to be able to figure out what's true and what's not.</s>STELTER: Yes, media diversity is great but people have to know what they're consuming. David Cay Johnston, I have a feeling that, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but there's been a lot of folks watching news coverage the last 16 months saying, you all actually don't go far enough calling out lies. Are you one of those critics?</s>DAVID CAY JOHNSTON, FOUNDER, DCREPORT.ORG: Yes, and I think the biggest problem, Brian, was during the campaign. Very few Americans know Donald had two trials for income tax fraud, lost them both, confessed to sales tax cheating. And most importantly, spent years so deeply involved with a major international cocaine trafficker he did favors for that the only logical explanation is they were in the cocaine trafficking business together. That's not being discussed, things like that. And Donald is the master, as Jon pointed out, of turning the tables, attack the people who are telling the truth and those --</s>STELTER: Right, but when you bring up drug deals, you've got to provide the proof. Where is -- where can people find that evidence?</s>JOHNSTON: In my book "The Making of Donald Trump" and in my current book, "It's Even Worse Than You Think", I cite the court records, the letters that Donald wrote and show why what he did as a casino owner makes no sense unless they were in business together.</s>STELTER: You always call --</s>JOHNSTON: And, Donald, if you're listening, sue me if you think I slandered you.</s>STELTER: You always call him Donald. I know that's on purpose. It comes across as disrespectful to a lot of people. So, why do you do that?</s>JOHNSTON: I call all public officials by their first names if I know them. When I was exposing the LAPD 30 years ago, I called the chief of police, Daryl Gates, Daryl, because we're both equals. We're citizens of the city of L.A., Daryl and I are citizens. Donald and I are citizens of the U.S. and we know each other.</s>STELTER: OK, all right. So, Amanda, I wanted to ask you about this term gaslighting since it's a title of your book. I know it's still new to some folks. What is the gaslighting phenomenon? Is there a great example from this week of the president engaging in this? Because you wrote here one chapter, feelings, not facts are essential to a good gaslighting.</s>CARPENTER: Yes, I mean, the most easily understood example of the term gaslighting really is how he engaged in a campaign of birtherism against Barack Obama. Gaslighting is much more than a lie. It's an elaborate scheme meant to distort reality and eventually drives people a little bit crazy. In my book, I kind of -- I go through these techniques Donald Trump keeps using again and again to create press interest in these narratives because the chaos that he creates with his gaslighting and these lies is a deliberate form of control that works for him, going into 2018 and 2020, people better stop thinking his lies and gaslighting will do him in. It's what works for him. Assume the lies will keep working until someone can go toe to toe with him and confront him. I don't see anyone other than Michael Avenatti doing that right now. He's doing a better job than anyone in the entire Democratic Party, where are they? Assume it's going to keep working.</s>STELTER: Jon Meacham, last word to you?</s>MEACHAM: I think this is all in the hands of the voters. I think we have a republic here that is worth defending. The republic is only as good as the sum of its parts. Protests matters, resistance matters, and truth will out.</s>STELTER: As much as this show is about the press, of course, I did find myself thinking this morning, this issue about his lies isn't really about the press. We can identify the lies. We can fact check every hour. But ultimately, there's not much more that journalists can do. Sorry, David, did you want to chime in?</s>JOHNSTON: Well, we -- our job is to make a record. But we need to recognize a lot of Trump support is visceral. It's not fact-based. Amanda is right, that's not going to change.</s>STELTER: I appreciate you all being here. Great to talk with you. We have a quick break and then Sunday morning exclusive, with Trump's media allies sounding the alarm on the Mueller probe, former campaign aide Michael Caputo was actually been in the room. He sat down with Robert Mueller's investigators just a few days ago. So, I have a lot of questions right after the break.