Interview With Maryland Senator Ben Cardin; Trump Administration Expels Russian Intelligence Officials.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: In our world lead, a strong statement from the United States against Russia. The White House announcing 60 Russian diplomats will be kicked out of the country because of Russia's alleged poisoning of a former spy in England. This is the most aggressive action the Trump administration has taken against the Putin regime. The U.S. is joining a growing list of Western countries expelling these Russian diplomats. And now Russia is responding, vowing to strike back. CNN's Michelle Kosinski has the story.</s>MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN SENIOR DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sixty Russian diplomats, according to the Trump administration, aggressive spies, have one week to pack their bags and get out. A dozen Russians will be kicked out of New York at the U.N.; 58 others at embassies and consulates around the U.S. The Russian Consulate in Seattle will be shuttered, administration officials saying it's too close to a U.S. submarine base. A sharp U.S. response to the nerve agent attack poisoning former Russian spy Sergei Skripal, his daughter, and others in the</s>U.K. JOHN KIRBY, CNN MILITARY AND DIPLOMATIC ANALYST: I think this is a good move by the president and the administration and I'm glad to see it. It sends two strong messages to Putin. One is, we're going to hold you accountable for your crimes, and number two that you're not going to be able to continue to divide and sow chaos and discord in the West.</s>KOSINSKI: This move cuts the number of Russian diplomats in the U.S. by 13 percent, officials saying this will make the U.S. safer from Russian espionage. More than a dozen U.S. allies also expelling diplomats, and Russia already warning it will do the same right back.</s>ANATOLY ANTONOV, RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES: The United States did a very bad step. I'm sure that the time will come. They will understand what kind of the grave mistake they did.</s>KOSINSKI: It's a much harder line than previously seen from this administration, especially from President Trump, who only days ago defied his national security team's warning in all capital letters to not congratulate Vladimir Putin on his election victory. On a phone call with Putin, Trump didn't even bring up the poisoning attacks or election meddling, which lawmakers both Democrats and Republicans are worried that this administration is not tackling. Now Trump will have a new national security adviser in John Bolton, a new secretary of state in Mike Pompeo, both of whom have called for strong action against Russia. Though, in 2016, Bolton criticized President Obama on FOX News for taking the same action and merely expelling diplomats.</s>JOHN BOLTON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: That is utterly useless. So, if you make them feel pain and others feel pain, then the possibility of deterring future conduct like this increases. That's what we need to do.</s>KOSINSKI: Today, former CIA operative Bob Baer agrees.</s>BOB BAER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You go after Putin's money. You go after the oligarchs. You hit them in their pocketbooks. Bolton is absolutely right. I don't usually agree with him, but he's right on this, and you really have to make them feel pain. And expelling 60 diplomats does not go far enough.</s>KOSINSKI: Russia sensing thing that something like this could be coming down the pike for days has been trolling the U.S. on Twitter, issuing warnings. Today, they tweeted a poll asking people what U.S. Consulate in Russia should be shut down. But we also this morning heard Trump administration officials warn Russia, saying that if Russia does retaliate, the U.S. could well take further action -- John.</s>BERMAN: All right, Michelle Kosinski at the State Department, Michelle thank you very much. Joining me now is Democratic Senator Ben Cardin of Maryland, who serves on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Senator Cardin, you have been very critical of the Trump the administration in its treatment of Russia. You were very critical last week when we spoke over the fact that President Trump did not bring up this nerve agent attack that took place in England. But this action today, kicking out 60 Russian diplomats from the U.S., is three times the amount that Britain is expelling. Is this the type of strong action you would like to see?</s>SEN. BEN CARDIN (D), MARYLAND: Well, John first, it is good to be with you. And, yes, this was an appropriate response. We're talking about a response for with Mr. Putin did in U.K. And it showed the unity of the West in responding to let Mr. Putin know that that type of conduct will go -- won't go unchallenged. So it was the right response. I agree with it. But the president of the United States has yet to respond to Russia's attacks here in the United States or ask our allies in the West to join us in imposing much more stringent sanctions against Russia for that conduct. But it was right to join Europe in regards to expelling these diplomats.</s>BERMAN: I will say the Treasury Department did issue sanctions on many of the entities that were mentioned in the indictments for Robert Mueller. So they have taken some action for those engaged in Russian meddling. What more do you want to see from the Trump administration? What you want to see as the next action?</s>CARDIN: Congress passed by an overwhelming vote mandatory sanctions against Russia in regards to their attacks against us. It deals with the defense industry, deals with their intelligence agencies. Those sanctions have not yet been imposed at all. So there's still a whole range of activities that could be sanctioned based upon their cyber-attacks against us. The interference in our elections law this. So, yes, we want to see stronger steps in regards to what -- I would like to hear the president speak out against Russia, what they did in the United States.</s>BERMAN: Again, he has not commented publicly himself, even though we have heard from the State Department, the U.N. investor and the White House. We heard John Bolton talk about what needs to happen to make Russia change their behavior. This was a year ago. He said you need to make whatever Putin feel pain. How do you make Vladimir Putin feel pain?</s>CARDIN: Well, we know we don't do. You don't ignore with these attacks. The president of the United States need to speak out strongly against what Russia has done. And there's several ways of -- yes, of putting sanctions on the use of our banking system or the ability to get visas to travel to the United States against the oligarchs are a prime way to really cause pain to Mr. Putin. His regime depends upon corruption. And to the extent that you could deal with their corrupt enterprises, so that it's not easy to hide money or to have assets in the West or visit the West, all that would hurt Mr. Putin's ability to maintain his corrupt version.</s>BERMAN: We heard from the Russian ambassador to the United States responding to this, saying, in part: "The U.S. will understand what kind of grave mistake they did and I hope that maybe in the future our relations will be restored." Where does the United States need to continue to work with Russia despite this tension?</s>CARDIN: Well, look, we would like to have a positive relations with Russia. We're not the ones causing a problem. It's Russia that interfered in our free election system. It's Russia that poisoned a person in the U.K. It's Russia that financed a coup in Montenegro. It's Mr. Putin who's been financing corruption basically globally. What we want to see is Russia adhere to international norms. We do need to work with Russia in fighting extremists and terrorists around the world. Russia has a vote in the United Nations Security Council and the right of veto. We do need to work with Russia. To resolve North Korea, we need Russian help. So there are areas that we have to work together.</s>BERMAN: I will note the president just tweeted on the stock market, still no direct mention about Russia or the expulsion. Senator Ben Cardin of Maryland, thanks so much for being with us.</s>CARDIN: Thank you, John.</s>BERMAN: All right, so who will be the next to go? The White House says there are no personnel changes at the White House at this time, but what about a few hours from now? Stick around.