White House Changes Story on Alleged Abuse By Former Top Aide; Ex-Wife of Former White House Aide Details Abuse Allegations; Porter's Ex-Wife: Rob Is Abusive, He Is Flawed.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. Today, trying to deal with the fallout from their handling or mishandling of serious allegations of abuse by two ex-wives of Rob Porter, chief of staff John Kelly's right hand man, a White House spokesman said today we all could have done better. Keeping them honest -- keep that phrase in mind. We all could have done better, because as you're soon see, it conceals as much as it reveals. In a minute, I'll talk with Jennie Willoughby, who was married to Porter from 2009 to 2013, years of which she says she endured verbal and emotional abuse, a frightening physical confrontation and even filed a temporary ordered of protection. Porter's first wife Colbie Holderness also divorced him after years, she says, of consistent abuse, including incidents of physical violence. Holderness has even released pictures of a black eye she says she got when Porter hit her. She also says he shoved and choked her. Porter calls all the allegations against him, quote, outrageous and simply false. He says the reality behind the pictures is, quote, nowhere close to what is being described, and says, quote, I have been transparent and truthful about these vile claims. Holderness provided the photos and told her story, as did Jennie Willoughby to a British newspaper, and both women had previously told their story to the FBI, which was in the process of doing a background check on Porter for security clearance. And the FBI told senior officials at the White House, including John Kelly. Multiple sources telling us by last fall, months ago, it was widely known, and let me just repeat that, widely known among top aides, Kelly included, that Rob Porter was facing trouble getting cleared and his ex-wives had discussed spousal abuse. The White House account of what they knew and when they knew it has changed, to put it mildly. And still, the White House refuses to go into detail of exactly who knee what and when. That phrase, for example, we all could have done better, it conceals a lot when you hear it in its fuller context. Listen.</s>RAJ SHAH, PRINCIPAL DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think it's fair to say that, you know, we all could have done better over the last few hours or last few days in dealing with this situation.</s>COOPER: So, did you hear that? Over the few hours or last few days. Meaning since the story in "The Daily Mail" came out early yesterday morning, and with it, the account of Jennie Willoughby and the account and photo of a bruised Colbie Holderness. Keeping them honest, though, given what our multiple sources are telling us, that's a narrow timeframe to have regrets about, because it's not as if they found out about the allegations by reading "The Daily Mail" story. Again, our sources say that senior aides, including Chief of Staff Kelly have known of these allegations not for hours, not for days but for months. And they certainly knew it on Tuesday when the existence of "The Daily Mail" report became known and when the White House crafted its first statement under Kelly's name, written by aides including communications director Hope Hicks who is dating Rob Porter. Quote, Rob Porter, it reads, is a man of true integrity and honor, and I can't say enough good things about him. He's a friend, a confidante and a trusted professional. I'm proud to serve alongside him. Now, again, our multiple sources tell us white Kelly and multiple sources knew about the spousal abuse allegations when they wrote the statement. Exactly what Kelly knew, that's not clear. They knew yesterday when one White House official tells us Kelly was still urging Porter to stay, insisting he could weather the allegations. They knew when Porter resigned. They knew when Kelly put out a second statement just last night. Quote, I was shocked, he said, by the new allegations released today against Rob Porter. There's no place for domestic violence in our society. Well, Kelly said he was shocked by the new allegations released yesterday, but keeping him honest, the only thing new about the allegations is they and the photo of Colbie Holderness's black eye, Colbie Holderness's black eye became public. Something Raj Shah danced around. That's a technical term in today's White House briefing.</s>REPORTER: Can you tell us, Raj, when the White House first became aware of these allegations?</s>SHAH: Well, I know there's been some reports about the chief of staff. He became fully aware about these allegations yesterday. I'm not going to get into specifics regarding who may have known, what pieces of information, because they were all part of an ongoing background check investigation.</s>REPORTER: You say fully aware. Was he partially aware?</s>SHAH: I think we all became aware of the news reports that emerged on Wednesday morning, and some of the graphic images.</s>REPORTER: But did he know any of this back in November?</s>SHAH: Again, I'm not going to get into the specifics. Peter?</s>REPORTER: Let me ask you if I can. The statement changed from John Kelly yesterday morning to yesterday evening. He said based on new allegations. But what changed yesterday absent a photograph in terms of new allegations?</s>SHAH: Well, I think what I just referenced. The reports had additional allegations. They had nor information.</s>REPORTER: Are you saying that the chief of staff of this White House had no idea that Rob Porter's two ex-wives had domestic violence allegations against him when they made those claims to the FBI that John Kelly did not know that? How is that possible the chief of staff did not know that?</s>SHAH: Well, again, this is part of an ongoing investigation. We trust the background check process, and the chief of staff does not get detailed updates about what may or may not have been alleged. This is a process, it involves thorough investigation, and as I went through the process, it involves looking at not just accusations but denials.</s>COOPER: OK. So, when asked point blank if John Kelly knew about any of the allegations last fall, Raj Shah, the spokesman, refused to answer. I'm not going to get into specifics. Those are the words he said. He did not deny that John Kelly and others have known about the spousal abuse allegations for months. That much becomes clear when you listen to what Shah said just moments later when reporters circled back to the topic again.</s>REPORTER: Follow up on this. Two questions on two different things. I just want to understand, you used the term fully aware. I don't understand what that means. What does that mean John Kelly knew or didn't know? What is --</s>SHAH: I do know, for instance, that he had not seen images prior to his statement, the statement on Tuesday night.</s>REPORTER: Did he know of the allegations?</s>SHAH: Sorry, say that again?</s>REPORTER: Did he know of some of the allegations?</s>SHAH: Again, I'm not going to get into the specifics of what may have emerged from the investigation.</s>COOPER: So, that's what's known in the press as a nondenial denial, which really doesn't do justice of the seriousness of Rob Porter's position, the seriousness of the allegations against him, the seriousness of what two women said they lived through for years and the apparent lack of seriousness with which their allegations were treated by some of the most powerful people in our government. Again, my interview with one of Rob Porter's ex-wives, Jennie Willoughby, in a moment. But first, CNN's Jim Acosta was in the briefing room when all of the bobbing and weaving was happening. He joins us now. So, I understand you're getting some new reporting about that briefing today.</s>JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Anderson. I was just talking with a source close to the White House who advises this White House on communications strategy from time to time. This source was telling me that the reason why Raj Shah was not giving a full tick-tock or explanation of the timetable in terms of what John Kelly and other top White House staffers knew and when they knew it is because it's, quote, too damning. That is an indication, Anderson, I think, that they knew full well going into this briefing today that they simply could not give, you know, a detailed explanation as to what John Kelly knew and when he knew it because it would just simply be too damaging to this White House. Now, obviously, you were playing these clips a few moments ago. It was apparent in the room, and this was Raj Shah's first briefing. He was filling in for Sarah Sanders who was away. But it was -- you could have thrown anybody into that situation to dance around that question the way Raj Shah did earlier today. It was just blatantly obvious that they were simply trying to cover up that top officials here, including the chief of staff, knew something about Rob Porter's background months ago.</s>COOPER: Right. I mean, what they were repeatedly falling back on the word play of saying, well, he was fully aware only in the last day, but also that the idea that this is some sort of ongoing background check or security investigation, and therefore, not everything was known or things wouldn't be known to the chief of staff. I mean, that just doesn't make sense.</s>ACOSTA: Exactly. And when they received this information months ago, they had a decision to make, Anderson, and they chose not to make the decision that Rob Porter had to go. That his security clearance was not going to happen, raj shah was also making this distinction today that Rob Porter was continuing to work with an interim security clearance. While he's working with an interim security clearance because that background check process was dredging up trouble. And so I think that is why you heard Raj, and Anderson, I think the most incredible thing that happened today besides that really obvious dodging of the question on Kelly and what he knew, was the fact that he acknowledged -- Raj Shah acknowledged that the White House had made mistakes in handling all this. I asked the question, you know, Rob Porter released a statement yesterday afternoon, saying that he took a photograph of this black eye. And so, how could this white house go out and put these statements with glowing praise of the staff secretary? It just doesn't make any sense. And, Anderson, I think this just goes back to what we have been talking about. They thought they could weather the storm, but obviously, when you're covering up domestic abuse, it's a storm you can't weather -- Anderson.</s>COOPER: Also, I mean, with all due respect, the idea that it takes -- it has to take a photograph of an actual black eye that becomes public, nonetheless, in order for minds to be changed, I mean, that says a lot about where we're at.</s>ACOSTA: And I think that explains why this press briefing that was supposed to happen at 1:00 this afternoon was delayed until 2:30 and then it was delayed until 3:15, and we waited until after 3:30 for this briefing to happen. I think they were just fumbling around and scrambling around to come up with some sort of answer. And when they were throwing up the phrase fully aware that John Kelly was only fully aware yesterday, it just is an evasive, obvious falsehood. And, you know, I think if you have inclinations that there was domestic violence in your staff secretary's past months ago, you don't need a photograph.</s>COOPER: Yes.</s>ACOSTA: And as Raj Shah was saying, they were believing the defense that Rob Kelly was putting forward as much as they were believing these allegations. The denials were believed as much as the allegations, Raj Shah was saying, they're taking as seriously. And I think that goes to the issue here that they were simply just not taking it as seriously as they should have -- Anderson.</s>COOPER: Yes. Jim Acosta from the White House, thanks very much. Joining us now is Jennie Willoughby. She was married to Rob Porter from 2009 to 2013. She's a writer and a speaker. Thanks so much for being with us. I know it's not an easy thing.</s>JENNIE WILLOUGHBY, EX-WIFE OF ROB PORTER: Thank you. Thank you, Anderson.</s>COOPER: Why are you coming forward? Why are you speaking out?</s>WILLOUGHBY: So I had no intention of speaking out and making these particular details of my marriage public. I feel as though the opportunity to share my experience with other people and talk about the -- the shame and the guilt that's associated with it, and then also the healing and resiliency that comes after you have been able to step out.</s>COOPER: You hope it helps other people?</s>WILLOUGHBY: It was really important for me, yes, to get that message out to other people.</s>COOPER: This isn't a vendetta against your former husband?</s>WILLOUGHBY: No, and I tried very much to make that clear when I was speaking with other media outlets, that I have nothing against Rob. I have long since done the healing and forgiveness that I need to do, and I seek no harm for him.</s>COOPER: Let me take you back. You were married, the marriage started I think in November of 2009.</s>WILLOUGHBY: That's correct.</s>COOPER: The abuse, the verbal abuse started on your honeymoon.</s>WILLOUGHBY: Even sooner than that, actually. We had a delayed honeymoon, so within the first probably two weeks. I was already getting belittled and nit-picked and sort of systematically torn apart for small things, and seeing glimpses of his anger.</s>COOPER: You said he was cursing, he would curse at you.</s>WILLOUGHBY: The cursing, the actual cursing and insults didn't start until the honeymoon, which was about a month or so after we were married.</s>COOPER: Had you gotten any hint of that during the dating process?</s>WILLOUGHBY: You know, I hadn't. He is quite charming and chivalrous and romantic, and the way that he described his previous marriage, it all added up to how he was behaving when he was with me. And so the only possible inclination that I had to a glimpse into his anger was at one point, a month or so before we were married, when he was particularly impatient. We were late for an appointment to meet with somebody, and it just seems like a little bit disproportionate to the situation. But even that wasn't a red flag for what I experienced ultimately.</s>COOPER: It was just a few months after your honeymoon in June, I think, of 2010, that you actually filed for a temporary protective order.</s>WILLOUGHBY: Yes.</s>COOPER: Can you talk about the incident that motivated that?</s>WILLOUGHBY: Yes. Rob and I had been seeing a marriage counselor, and together had drafted a separation agreement, primarily because of his anger, and the verbal and emotional abuse. So, at that time, he was meant to be living in our home that we had recently purchased. He came to the apartment where I was staying and refused to leave, and after he did ultimately leave and I closed the door and locked it behind him, he returned a moment later and punched in the glass on the front door. And because I did know that his anger was unpredictable, I didn't know what he would do next. And</s>I -- COOPER: You were frightened.</s>WILLOUGHBY: Yes, I was scared.</s>COOPER: And you called the police.</s>WILLOUGHBY: And I did call the police.</s>COOPER: Was it the police who recommended the protective, temporary protective order?</s>WILLOUGHBY: Yes, even in that moment, you know, when my husband had just punched in the glass on my door, and made me scared, I didn't realize the extent of what I was dealing with, and thankfully, there was a police officer who sort of counseled me. You know, you didn't think he would punch in a window and now he did. So, you don't want to know -- you really don't know what could happen in the future. And with that counsel, and ultimately, counseling with a Mormon bishop, the lay clergy in the Mormon Church, I decided to file the temporary protective order.</s>COOPER: You had written in a blog post about the counseling with the bishop, and one of the things the bishop had sort of suggested to you or mentioned to you is do you want to file this temporary protective order because of the impact it might have on your husband's career?</s>WILLOUGHBY: Yes.</s>COOPER: How did you feel when that was brought up?</s>WILLOUGHBY: I was taken aback. It seemed sort of not the priority in the situation that I was discussing. I hold no ill will towards that bishop. I think he was making a decision the best he could with the information he had. But ultimately, I think it shows some of the nuances of what someone goes through when they're in an abusive relationship that because I was unable to clearly articulate the fear that I had and to clearly articulate even some of the more extreme forms of emotional or verbal abuse that I was experiencing, he really didn't understand the severity of the situation and was able to make that as a recommendation.</s>COOPER: One of the things the -- you didn't know his ex- wife, his first wife.</s>WILLOUGHBY: No.</s>COOPER: So, you didn't know the allegations, what she had said, the choking, the assaults.</s>WILLOUGHBY: No, I was unaware of that add all.</s>COOPER: All of which, of course, he denied and continues to deny. I'm wondering, at a certain point, though, you were arguing and you said there was a physical -- I don't know how to describe it, confrontation of sorts.</s>WILLOUGHBY: Yes. The first and perhaps the only physical abuse that I suffered was after an argument where we were both yelling in each other's faces, which unfortunately, had become the norm in our marriage, and I removed myself from the situation to take a shower, to cool down, to disengage from the situation. He came to the shower and opened the door and pulled me out to continue yelling at me.</s>COOPER: He put his hands on you and pulled you out?</s>WILLOUGHBY: Yes.</s>COOPER: Was that a startling moment for you?</s>WILLOUGHBY: I think up until that moment, I didn't realize that I was in an abusive marriage. I think that sounds almost ridiculous coming out of my mouth given how I can speak about it and remember things now. But I don't know, it was until that moment that I realized I was with a man who was capable of something like that.</s>COOPER: I think so many women will relate to what you just said, and one of the things you wrote, you wrote about, you talked about how when you would go outside, people would compliment your husband and say how lucky you were to have a guy like that. And sort of his public face was an incredibly impressive one. Did that add to that sense of not being able to believe what was going on at home?</s>WILLOUGHBY: So I mean, I think you kind of hit on the crux of how I ended up here in your studio, right? Like there's somebody who was able to rise professionally and have the accolades from so many, and even in the face of what's currently unfolding, to still have the support of so many people in the White House and former colleagues, that the idea that he could be so different seems to escape people. And yet, everyone in their daily lives has a different personality for different situations. I think this, for Rob, was just a really extreme and toxic version of that.</s>COOPER: You had said that strangers complimented him to me every time we went out, but in my home, the abuse was insidious, the threats were personal, the terror was real. That's what it felt, terror.</s>WILLOUGHBY: It was a low grade constant terror of not knowing what I might do to set something off. What mood he would have. There weren't any explicit threats, but I frequently felt threatened.</s>COOPER: There was one other thing you wrote, and then I want to take a break for a moment. You wrote, if he was -- about why you stayed, if he was a monster all the time, perhaps it would be easier to leave, but he could be kind and sensitive, and so I stayed. He cried and apologized, and so I stayed. He offered to get help and even went to a few counseling session and therapy groups, and so I stayed.</s>WILLOUGHBY: Yes. You know, this is a question I specifically wrote that because that's a question I'm asked a lot, is why did you stay if he was a, quote/unquote, monster? And the reality is he's not a monster. He is an intelligent, kind, chivalrous, caring, professional man. And he is deeply troubled and angry and violent. I don't think those things are mutually exclusive.</s>COOPER: And the people he works with may not have seen that side of him at all.</s>WILLOUGHBY: Of course not. Of course not. It's reserved for the most intimate and also vulnerable moments in his life.</s>COOPER: We're going to take a quick break and continue talking. We'll be right back.