Israeli Knesset Speaker Avraham Burg, Palestinian Representative to U.S. Hassan Abdel Rahman Discuss Middle East Crisis
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: For more perspective on the latest developments in the Middle East, we're joined by two guests. Avraham Burg is the speaker of the 15th Knesset. He is in New York. Hassan Abdel Rahman joins us from Washington. He is the Palestinian representative to the U.S. Welcome to both of you, gentlemen.</s>HASSAN ABDEL RAHMAN, PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE TO U.S.: Thank you.</s>AVRAHAM BURG, ISRAELI KNESSET MEMBER: Thank you very much.</s>O'BRIEN: Mr. Rahman, I'd like to begin with you. If you had the opportunity to counsel Mr. Arafat going into this summit meeting tomorrow, what would you tell him to do?</s>RAHMAN: Well, I think he knows what he has to do. Mr. Arafat had asked for an international commission of inquiry to investigate Israeli aggression against the Palestinians in the last two weeks. And he asked Israel to stop all the measures that it has imposed on the Palestinian territories such as the closure of the Gaza airport, the borders, the prevention of aid from arriving into Palestinian territories. And definitely, we would like to see the ground paved for ending the cause of this conflict, which is essentially, Israeli occupation of Palestinian land and people.</s>O'BRIEN: Mr. Burg, if that is what Mr. Arafat were indeed to say, how would you counsel Mr. Barak to respond?</s>BURG: The first advice to Mr. Barak is go there. Though this summit is not a starter or restarter of the peace process but at least I hope it will become a stopper of the present violence. There are a couple of measures to be taken in order to make this event or this summit a successful one. The first one is Israel will continue to defend its citizens by building walls between us and the Palestinians as long as the other side won't stop the very strange national unity of associating Yasser Arafat with the arch terrorist of the Hamas leagues (ph) released to walk in the streets as walking bombs. The minute he will bring this genie back to the bottle, he can re-become a partner for our peace process. And therefore, I would say Israel, who always wants peace, and Israel, who always will do its best to defend its soldiers and citizens is really at this moment with all the difficulties to resume the peace talks, if the other side will go back to conversation, to dialogue, to negotiation rather than the road of struggle.</s>O'BRIEN: Mr. Rahman, some would suggest the peace process, now seven years old, may, in fact be dead. Would you go along with that?</s>RAHMAN: Well, I'm sure that the peace process has been dealt a very serious blow in the last two weeks, because Israel really unilaterally declared war against the Palestinians and killed over a hundred Palestinians and wounded over 3,000 and deployed its tanks on Palestinian land and took very warlike measures against the Palestinians. So that is not really an environment for peace. That's why I would like to ask Mr. Burg and Mr. Barak to take actions to diffuse this situation by withdrawing their tanks from Palestinian territories. And then the environment will be more adequate to talk about how to solve the problems between us and the Israelis.</s>O'BRIEN: Is that...</s>RAHMAN: I don't understand why Israel insists on having its Army and its tanks on Palestinian territories in Palestinian towns and in Palestinian villages shooting at Palestinians.</s>O'BRIEN: Mr. Burg, is that a non-starter from the Israeli perspective?</s>BURG: First, everything is a starter as long as the other side is motivated to peace the way ours. But I would like to answer both of your questions. The first one is, Mr. Abdel Rahman knows better than many of us that each and every Israeli soldier who is deployed there in the occupied territories is there out of an agreement between us and the Palestinians of the last seven years from Oslo up until the last Camp David, each and every one of them. However, when an isolated soldiers is being attacked by mobs like the one slaughtered and lynched two of our soldiers only a couple of days ago, thousands of them enraged by Yasser Arafat there behind the scenes puppeteering his people, there is only one reaction that a soldier can do in order to defend himself, and this is to defend to himself, it's self-defense. And then my question will be to the rest of the world: Where is Mr. Arafat? Why didn't we hear his voice when the mobs lynched these two people? Why was it so that when the Israelis accidentally shot the poor boy there at the junction in Gaza? And I never understand why a father takes his son to a killing zone, but he was there. And the entire nation agonized this thing. And I, as a speaker of the Knesset, really apologize for it. Where is Mr. Arafat? Is he happy with the violence? Can he control the genie?</s>O'BRIEN: Mr. Rahman...</s>BURG: And if he cannot control the genie, he cannot be a partner.</s>O'BRIEN: Mr. Rahman, the question is posed.</s>RAHMAN: Yes. An isolated mob soldier killed by isolated mob.</s>BURG: Where was Mr. Arafat? Where was Mr. Arafat?</s>RAHMAN: Can you -- I listened to you -- I listened...</s>BURG: Only one leader you have.</s>RAHMAN: Where were you -- where were you...</s>BURG: What did the leader say?</s>RAHMAN: Where were you and Mr. Barak when your soldiers killed 100 Palestinians?</s>BURG: On the problem of -- Mr. Rahman...</s>RAHMAN: I did not hear you apologize for this and express your regret for 100 Palestinian lives. You have not said, "We are sorry."</s>BURG: Maybe -- I will tell you very carefully. I was there on the podium of the Knesset and in each and every network around the world saying we are ready to put an end to violence immediately...</s>RAHMAN: You did not say, "I am sorry. We apologize for the killing of Palestinian lives."</s>BURG: I'm sorry, Mr. Abdel Rahman, but I'm not at all sure that the truth is your guide because you don't know the information you are talking about, especially speaking about somebody like myself who is one of the founders of the peace camp in Israel.</s>RAHMAN: Well, I know you, and that's why -- I know you, and that's why I am really shocked by what I hear from you this morning. I have always thought...</s>BURG: You hear from me -- Mr. Abdel Rahman, as much as I...</s>RAHMAN: Yes, because you are always speaking exactly what other Israelis are saying.</s>BURG: As much as I admired your previous position as one who really wanted to promote peace, I really urge you now, stop the Palestinian demagoguery and the PR propaganda and go back to the table. If you cannot disassociate yourself from the bin Ladens and the Hamas killers in the streets of Ramallah and Nablus and Gaza, you will never be partners of the...</s>RAHMAN: Well, you know, that that is not correct and you know that.</s>BURG: You will never be -- Mr. Abdel Rahman, you will never be partners to the Western world.</s>RAHMAN: You know that. You, yourself cannot believe this.</s>O'BRIEN: Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen, we should try to do one at a time here. Mr. Rahman, why don't you respond to Mr. Burg?</s>RAHMAN: Yes. I think he himself does not believe what he is saying, Mr. Burg, for the very simple reason that if you are attacked by a foreign army in your own homes, what do you do? You just not even have the right to protest? We are protesting with stones while you are using tanks, Mr. Burg. You are talking about agreements having Israeli soldiers on our territory. But you know that Israel has failed to implement the agreements that we signed with Israel to redeploy its forces out of Palestinian territories. That is the source of frustration for Palestinians. Continued occupation for 32 years deprived of their freedom, of their dignity. You know that, Mr. Burg.</s>O'BRIEN: Gentlemen, gentlemen, let me ask you both, and Mr. Burg, you can begin because it is your turn.</s>BURG: Thank you.</s>O'BRIEN: To what extent is this summit perhaps in some ways irrelevant in the sense that what's happening on the streets in the West Bank and Gaza has taken on a shape of its own? And many of those people have such deep-seated emotions. Whatever happens in Egypt may not have any direct impact.</s>BURG: I will say the following. Killers and sympathizers of killers cannot play the underdog forever. And Israel will never apologize for being strong defending its interests and defending its citizens. Now at every given moment, Israel is there ready with both of its hands extended: one for peace, one for defense. Decide which one you would like to shake, and that's the kind of reciprocity you'll have from the Israeli side. You want peace, you'll have a full-scale peace. You want a struggle, in a struggle, there are no win-win situation. There is only one winner, and Israeli is determined to be this one winner.</s>O'BRIEN: Mr. Rahman, it seems as if this is a rock-in-hard-place sort of argument. Peace is difficult but the alternative seems even more painful.</s>RAHMAN: You know, for the Israelis, if we do not accept their terms for peace, then they will bomb us to submission. That is what I hear Mr. Burg saying: Either accept our terms for peace or we will beat the hell out of you and we will kill you.</s>BURG: Either finish the terms around the table or the battleground. You want battleground, you'll have battleground.</s>RAHMAN: That's exactly what you are saying. I want to -- Mr. Burg...</s>BURG: Do you want a table, the chair is next to me. Come and sit next to me and talk to me, Mr. Abdel Rahman.</s>RAHMAN: Mr. Burg, I talked to you for several...</s>BURG: Stop the rhetoric and come to talk.</s>O'BRIEN: Mr. Burg, let Mr. Rahman finish his point.</s>RAHMAN: I talked to you for seven years and you have failed to implement the agreement that you and I reached. Our people are frustrated by this situation. For 32 years, they are living -- the only people in the world who live in the occupation.</s>BURG: So am I...</s>RAHMAN: You, Mr. Burg -- listen to me. I listened to you. Mr. Burg, you should take the high moral ground and ask your government stop oppressing other people.</s>BURG: Am I to understand that...</s>O'BRIEN: Mr. Burg, Mr. Burg, let me ask you this, Mr. Burg.</s>BURG: Abdel Rahman, am I to understand that violence is a bargaining...</s>RAHMAN: This is not violence. This is self-defense.</s>O'BRIEN: Mr. Burg, can I ask you one quick question.</s>BURG: Yes, Miles, please.</s>O'BRIEN: Is Israel prepared to make any additional concessions to meet the Palestinians on these demands?</s>BURG: We didn't make any pre-conditions to go to Cairo. We want to go there and to put an end to the violence. The minute the violence level is down, we are ready to discuss everything. I cannot tell you that it will be very easier for a peacenik like myself to persuade my constituency that the same good old Arafat is a partner. Maybe we need some patience for this older generation times to be over and to wait for a next generation who will never take the alternative of violence as a first option. We have a lot of patience, we have a lot of perseverance and we have a lot of power. And therefore, we are ready to go both ways. We're just waiting for the other side to understand that Israel is the only democracy, Western democracy in the Middle East will never give up its way of life and its valued Democratic system, period.</s>O'BRIEN: Mr. Rahman, has the time for any sort of peace process such as we know it past?</s>RAHMAN: You know, democracies will not occupy other people. Democracies do not discriminate against other people. Democracies have equal treatment of its people and other people. But your government that claims to be a democracy has oppressed Palestinians for 32 years and denied them their very basic human rights and political rights and their right to live as a free people. Mr. Burg, you have taken in the past positions supporting ending of the Israeli occupation. Today, I hear you saying something totally different. You are saying...</s>BURG: I...</s>RAHMAN: Listen to me. You are saying you are there for many, many years to come. And I assure you that the Palestinian people, if they feel that you do not have any intention to withdraw from Palestine, they will have to resist your occupation like any decent people in the world...</s>BURG: Mr. Abdel Rahman...</s>RAHMAN: ... when they are invaded by others...</s>BURG: ... I admire Yasser Arafat's tyrant democracy, but I will tell you only one thing. The fact that Yasser Arafat is now in Ramallah is because we Israelis took the initiative and we Israelis went all the way with the most reconciliatory prime minister you've ever had.</s>RAHMAN: So you are so generous, Mr. Burg.</s>BURG: You'll never find a better government than the one you have today. You want to make peace, make it with this government. I tell you...</s>O'BRIEN: All right, gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen...</s>RAHMAN: We tried to make it with you and we are ready to make it if you accept the conditions for peace.</s>O'BRIEN: I'm sorry, gentlemen...</s>RAHMAN: The conditions for peace are international solutions. You have not accepted that.</s>O'BRIEN: All right, gentlemen, unfortunately, our time is lapsed. Clearly, we could go on and on in this. And we appreciate you both being with us.</s>RAHMAN: Thank you.</s>O'BRIEN: Perhaps some kind of hint of what is in store on Monday in Egypt. Avraham Burg and Hassan Abdel Rahman, thanks much to both of you for being with us CNN SUNDAY MORNING -- Carol.</s>CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: And clearly a reason why both sides are looking for a fact finding commission to find out how that violence started. Challenges ahead in this emergency summit.