U.K. Pledges More Power to Scotland; Imagine a World
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: the United Kingdom now just days away from a vote which could radically define the entire country, I'll get former prime minister John Major's view on why Scotland should remain part of the U.K. Also ahead, America's top military chief testifies on the fight against ISIS as President Obama announces a major deployment to fight a different kind of battle -- against the deadly Ebola virus.</s>AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour. In a rare show of unity, the leaders of Britain's three main political parties made a vow today in a last-ditch attempt to keep Scotland part of the United Kingdom. Appearing on the front of the Scottish newspaper, the "Daily Record," David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg vowed to transfer more powers to Scotland if it rejects independence in Thursday's vote. But deputy leader of the Scottish Nationalist Party Nicola Sturgeon hit back at Westminster, saying the offer wasn't good enough.</s>NICOLA STURGEON, DEPUTY LEADER, SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY: It's meaningless. You know, they're saying we'll deliver more powers if you won't vote, but won't tell us what powers they're talking about. They don't agree between themselves what more powers should come to Scotland. And we are already seeing MPs from south of the border saying that they will block any more powers for Scotland.</s>AMANPOUR: So John Major was the Conservative Party's prime minister here in Britain from 1990-1997 and he's a veteran of this particular political war and he's joining me now live in the studio. Welcome to the program.</s>JOHN MAJOR, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.</s>AMANPOUR: So what of Nicola Sturgeon? The Scottish Nationalist saying that this vow is a bribe and it's a day late and a dollar short. Do you agree?</s>MAJOR: As a matter of fact, there's nothing that anyone could say that would satisfy the Scottish Nationalists. Their aim is independence, a separate Scotland. They're perfectly prepared to throw away 300 years of history and the gains we've made in unity. So whatever was said, the SNP would turn it away and would disavow it. That's been their tactic right the way through this debate.</s>AMANPOUR: Do you believe, though, that this vow is the right way to go? Can it keep the union together? And is it offering something that you believe in?</s>MAJOR: This vow is something quite special and quite new. It offers Scotland a great deal more self-dependence in terms of the powers given to the Scottish parliament; it keeps the United Kingdom together. It stops many of the risks it would otherwise take place both to the United Kingdom and to Scotland because be in no doubt about this, were there to be separation, both the United Kingdom and Scotland, in my judgment would suffer and suffer seriously.</s>AMANPOUR: Let's first talk about Scotland. They are obviously full of the desire to move inevitably and inexorably from devolution to their own parliament to independence. And they say we can run our own economy; we'll be able to talk about jobs and govern those crucial economic areas ourselves.</s>MAJOR: No one has denied that the Scots are an intelligent nation who could run their own country. That's not the issue. The question is would Scotland be better off in the United Kingdom or better off --</s>AMANPOUR: They say they're</s>MAJOR: They have faced none of the realities that that actually refers to. Whenever the realities are placed before them, they say people are lying. They say we can get straight into the European Union. Well, the European Union say they can't. So they say the European Union is lying. They think they can enter into NATO. I think that's extremely unlikely. They say they can manage without having their own currency. They can't use sterling. They're two days away from the vote and they do not yet know what currency they're going to use in the long term. Now that is just absurd. And one could stretch that list to points put to them that they've denied. And they're not points put to them by advocates of the No campaign; they're points put to them by senior business men, by senior politicians outside the country, people who have studied what's happened and knows the impact upon Scotland and a Scottish nation have, frankly -- and I don't say this lightly -- have been fed a load of pap by the Scottish nationalists in the belief that everything will be all right on the night. Well, it won't. There are very serious problems that Scotland will face if they go down this route.</s>AMANPOUR: What about the wealth of the nation, so to speak? They talk a lot about the oil wealth. There they have it in waters off Scotland. Why should that not keep them afloat?</s>MAJOR: Well, it's U.K. oil. It isn't all Scottish oil. Let me make that point firstly. Secondly, it's a diminishing asset. The oil is reducing. It's not going to be there forever. It might be there for 30 years. It might be there for 40 years. But what about the young men and women who'll be voting for the first time in this referendum and their children and their children? They won't have Scottish oil to rely on. They will have to compete and in future they'll have to compete with the rest of the United Kingdom as well as others; whereas now the United Kingdom are advocates of Scotland. I go abroad frequently and I speak about British prospects and I include the prospect of investment in Scotland. In future, they'd be competitors if they were separate, not part of the United Kingdom.</s>AMANPOUR: And what about this notion? Because everyone watching this program from around the world is worried about what this means for separatist movements elsewhere, but also what does this mean for the reliable, trusty ally and trading partner that is the U.K.? Is this going to lead to a totally devolved U.K., one way or the other?</s>MAJOR: Well, there are two separate points there, firstly about separatism. There's no doubt that the Scottish plans have excited separatists in Catalonia, in Bavaria, in Flanders, all over the place. They expect to join the European Union and yet they will have excited dissent and separatism in a large number of European Union countries, a point they totally overlook. As to the impact if Scotland became separate, it would have a pretty dramatic impact on the rest of the United Kingdom as well. I don't think anything is going to break the United Kingdom's affinity and affection for its traditional allies. But they will be weaker. They will be weaker. They will have less influence. You can't have a large chunk of a country suddenly falling off and retain the same international influence that you had before.</s>AMANPOUR: I mean, right now, we're in the midst of a major existential fight that the West has identified against these terrorists, barbaric terrorists, who slaughter people in public, ISIS. Britain has always been a trusted military ally. It's been a trusted voice in the United Nations Security Council. How will that be affected, boots on the ground and people under arms, Scottish contribute a lot to that.</s>MAJOR: British military capability would be diminished if Scottish became a -- if Scotland became a separate nation, no doubt about that, an extraordinary time to do it. We had jihadists all over the Middle East. We have Russia misbehaving in Ukraine. We have a range of problems in different parts of the world and this is the moment that the United Kingdom, that's been together for 300 years, finds a part of it, which is to break away, it is an extraordinary concept and particularly an extraordinary concept at this moment in time with the world as it is.</s>AMANPOUR: You fought an election in 1997 and you lost to Tony Blair. But you, one of your platforms was to oppose the independent Scottish parliament. Now they have it. Do you agree with the idea of devo-max or whatever's been promised in this vow, even if they vote to stay in the U.K.?</s>MAJOR: I think if they stay in the United Kingdom and get more powers, I'm perfectly content with that. Frankly, I'd trade almost anything for the importance of keeping the United Kingdom as a single entity.</s>AMANPOUR: So why was that often made from the beginning by Prime Minister Cameron?</s>MAJOR: I can't answer that question. You'll have to ask Prime Minister Cameron --</s>AMANPOUR: -- former Conservative Party leader.</s>MAJOR: -- it doesn't mean I necessarily know the mind of my -- all my successors. But I did foresee in 1992 the damage that would come about by spreading devolution; I believed it would be a stepping stone for a separatist movement and thus it has proved. But we're now under a different circumstance. And now we're in the circumstance where there is a demand in Scotland that I think that in one way or another needs to be met. And to that reason, I think it is right to make this particular offer if it will sustain the union.</s>AMANPOUR: And finally, what about people individuals who say they are just fed up of central government? They just don't believe in this anymore; they don't see the leadership. They don't see how it helps them.</s>MAJOR: Well, I think that's a feeling in the U.K., but not only in the U.K. I think that's truly United States and in most of the countries of Europe as well. But there's a bigger point really in terms of the United Kingdom. Are we suddenly to wake up in two mornings' time and find that the Scots are foreigners? That the Scots, who've been integrated with the United Kingdom for hundreds of years, many of whom, 800,000 of whom live in the United Kingdom, are suddenly a foreign nation? It's an alien concept, very hard to grasp. And I think people today who are advocates of separatism have not perhaps realized the sheer impact upon them, upon Scotland, upon their colleagues in the United Kingdom and upon the United Kingdom as a whole if separatism were to be agreed by the Scottish voters on Thursday.</s>AMANPOUR: Sir John Major, you've made your case. Thank you very much indeed.</s>MAJOR: Thank you.</s>AMANPOUR: Thank you. And talking about being foreigners, while the prospect of Scottish independence is of course serious business, some merry pranksters have managed to have a little bit of fun with the debate. This checkpoint on a highway that runs from England to Scotland may look real but it is just a spoof of a border crossing, complete with barrier and passport control. After a break, can closing borders in Africa even shutting down whole countries help prevent the spread of the deadly Ebola virus? Desperate times and desperate measures when we come back.