Interview With Delaware Senator Joseph Biden; Iraq and the Midterm Elections
JOHN KING,  CNN ANCHOR: And good evening, everyone. From Paul Begala's partner, they are the words that elected a president, four simple words that changed history. Remember?</s>JAMES CARVILLE, CLINTON CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Stay focused. Talk about things that matter to the people, you know? It's the economy, stupid.</s>KING (voice-over): The elephant in the room, adviser Carville ropes it, and candidate Clinton rides it all the way to Washington. That was then, 1992. This is now.</s>CARVILLE: It's Iraq. There are other things that people are frustrated about, but this is the big one.</s>KING: Now Republican candidates are saying the darndest things. (</s>BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, KENNEDY CAMPAIGN AD) REP. MARK KENNEDY (R-MN), MINNESOTA SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: And we have made some mistakes in Iraq.</s>KING: And the president is reshaping the message.</s>GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Many Americans are not satisfied with the situation in Iraq.</s>KING: Tonight, fair or not, just 13 days until the election, it's all about the war.</s>KING: More from Mr. Carville in a moment -- more, too, of that remarkable campaign and which, in a way, is our touchstone for the night, a candidate trying to get his arms around the painful subject of Iraq. As you will hear James Carville tell it, the Iraq story has become so central to voters, you simply can't talk about the other issues until you first deal with the war. That's coming up. But we begin at the White House, where the president himself is grappling with Iraq and what to say about it. Here's CNN's Suzanne Malveaux.</s>SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If there was a message today, it was: I get it.</s>GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know many Americans are not satisfied with the situation in Iraq. I'm not satisfied either.</s>MALVEAUX: But, of course, there was another message, and it was a familiar one: Reelect the Republicans.</s>BUSH: ... who best to protect this country and who best to keep taxes low. That's what the referendum's about.</s>MALVEAUX: But with October the deadliest month for American troops this year, and increasing pressure from Democrats and Republicans for change in Iraq, Mr. Bush is trying to show he's flexible and resolute.</s>BUSH: And my point to the American people is, is that we're constantly adjusting our tactics to achieve victory.</s>MALVEAUX: After three years of resisting timetables for troop withdrawal called for by some Democrats, Mr. Bush said the administration now is working with the Iraqis on benchmarks for taking over their own security.</s>BUSH: The benchmarks will make it more likely we win. Withdrawing on an artificial timetable means we lose.</s>MALVEAUX: The president also tried to reassure the American public there would be an end in sight to the war in Iraq.</s>BUSH: We are pressing Iraqi's leaders to take bold measures to save their country. We're making it clear that America's patience is not unlimited.</s>MALVEAUX (on camera): Polls show America's patience has already begun to wear out, with two-thirds now opposing the Iraq war, and nearly a quarter of Republicans also against it. That's why Mr. Bush framed the Iraq war in terms Republicans respond to: national security.</s>BUSH: If I did not think our mission in Iraq was vital to America's security, I would bring our troops home tomorrow.</s>MALVEAUX (voice-over): Mr. Bush deflected criticism away from his secretary of defense and from Republicans in Congress for failures in Iraq. Instead, he took responsibility himself, a move that doesn't cost the president against politically, because he's not on the ballot.</s>BUSH: If you're asking about accountability, it rests right here. That's what the 2004 campaign was about, you know. If people are unhappy about it, look right to the president.</s>MALVEAUX: That's the problem many Republican candidates face. They don't want to be seen with the president. Mr. Bush brushed that aside and warned Democrats, the game is not over.</s>BUSH: As I said, they're dancing in the end zone. They just hadn't scored the touchdown, Mark (ph). You know, there's -- there's a lot to -- a lot of time left.</s>MALVEAUX: But the truth is, there isn't. Elections are less than two weeks away, and the administration is still trying to figure out how to keep Republicans in control of Congress. Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, the White House.</s>KING: More than safe to say the president's message on Iraq has been evolving lately. Also safe to Delaware Senator Joe Biden has long been a tough and consistent critic. He's the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. And Senator Biden spoke with us earlier tonight.</s>KING: Senator Biden, the president held court in the East Room today. He went on for more than an hour, almost exclusively about Iraq -- a few other questions. And the president goes before the American people less than two weeks before the midterm elections, when -- read any public opinion poll -- the American people don't think the United States is winning, and they're not sure this president has a plan. He said flatly today that he does have a plan; the United States is winning. Let's listen.</s>BUSH: We're winning and we will win, unless we leave before the job is done. And the crucial battle, right now, is Iraq. And, as I said in my statement, I understand how tough it is, really tough.</s>KING: Really tough, Senator Biden, but he says the United States is winning. Do you agree?</s>SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: No, if he means that we're -- we're making progress in Iraq. And I have been there seven times, as recently as this summer. I don't know any generals that are saying that. No one said that to me on the ground. They said there's a need for radical change in the political climate there.</s>KING: One of the things he also said is that he trusts the Maliki government. But are you confident in the leadership of Prime Minister Maliki and his ability to improve the security situation?</s>BIDEN: No, I'm not. And I met with him. I told him I wasn't. I asked him what he was going to do about the distribution of revenues to get the Sunnis to buy into a united government. He said there was no need to do anything. I asked what -- because he said it was -- quote -- "already in the constitution," which it's not. And I asked him what he was going to do about the whole notion of federalism, and -- which is in the constitution -- and he said: Well, we don't need any constitutional amendments. I asked him what he was going to do about dealing with the militia, and he said what he said publicly later. He said: We're not going to deal with them this year, with the death squads. In the meantime, our guys and women are in the middle, getting killed.</s>KING: The president was talking about the political debate about Iraq, and who should be held accountable. And he patted his chest and he said that he should be held accountable in the end. But he was also asked whether he had confidence, as a man who has said he would have accountability in his government, in the secretary of defense. Listen to what the president said about Donald Rumsfeld.</s>BUSH: And I'm satisfied of how he's done all his jobs. He is a smart, tough, capable administrator.</s>KING: Senator Biden, should the president be satisfied? And is Don Rumsfeld a tough, capable administrator?</s>BIDEN: He should not be satisfied. I don't know one single piece of significant advice that Secretary Rumsfeld has given the president that has turned out to be correct, from the fact we didn't need more troops when we went in -- and we did need them -- from the fact that there wasn't a real insurgency -- they're a bunch of dead-enders -- from the fact that, in fact, we would have enough oil to pay for this war, which we don't. And I don't -- he's a fine man. He's a decent, honorable, patriotic man, but he has been dead wrong, in my view, on every major element of Iraqis -- the U.S. policy towards the war in Iraq.</s>KING: Do you think, after the election, the president will be open to a much more significant change of course than what we are -- have heard in the past few days? Or do you think he will have to be bullied into it?</s>BIDEN: I think that the Republicans in the United States Senate and Congress will demand Rumsfeld's resignation privately. I think the president will realize, if he wants to get anything done, he's going to have to accommodate the overwhelming concern among Republicans, who, understandably, in the next 13 days, or 12 days, whatever it is, are not going to say much. I'm not criticizing them for not doing that. It's an election year. But I think you're going to see a fundamental change in heart -- or in -- in -- in -- in voice, after this election is over, assuming the Democrats make significant gains. If they don't, I think our Republican colleagues will read this as the president's policy being reaffirmed, and I think we're in for two very bad years.</s>KING: Senator Joseph Biden of Delaware, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee...</s>BIDEN: Thank you.</s>KING: ... a man thinking about running for president himself -- Senator, thank you very much.</s>BIDEN: Thank you very much.</s>KING: And now James Carville. He and Republican candidate Mark Kennedy truly inspired this hour, Mr. Kennedy's remarkable ad and Mr. Carville's remarkable way with a phrase, 14 years ago, and tonight.</s>KING: James Carville, you coined the slogan, "It's the economy, stupid," that became the trademark of the 1992 presidential campaign and Bill Clinton's victory. Is there any doubt about what is the leading issue in this year's campaign?</s>CARVILLE: Not with anybody I talk to, and not anybody that any pollster talks to. It's Iraq. And -- and it's clearly the -- driving people's attitudes toward -- toward the country. It's clearly driving the wrong-track number in the country. And -- and people are clearly frustrated about it. I mean, there are other things that people are frustrated about, but this is the big one. There's -- there's no doubt about that.</s>KING: Well, you -- when you used the term, it's the economy, stupid, why did you frame it that way? It was just to keep yourself -- to remind yourself every single day that was the issue? Do Democrats need to think, it's Iraq, stupid?</s>CARVILLE: Well, to answer the first one, it's precisely, that we should not be too clever here. This is what is on people's mind, in 1992, that the people had the sense that the economy wasn't working for them, that the policy we had wasn't working, that we needed new policies. I think now that it's -- it's a little bit different, that Iraq is one -- is -- is one of the things that causes people to -- to have a negative lens upon which they look at the country. Through that lens, they see a do-nothing Congress. They see escalating health care costs. They see a collapsed energy policy. So, I think it's slightly people, that -- and people are not enamored with the fact that we are stuck in a -- in a foreign war, and, as of now, not doing particularly well in it.</s>KING: How big of an issue will Iraq be in the next presidential campaign? Will it be as big an issue as it is in this midterm campaign?</s>CARVILLE: You know, I hope not. I mean, there's a real human cost here. I mean, we're not just talking about a campaign issue. And there's a real -- and -- and not as important, but there's a also real financial cost. I think where Senator Biden is pretty wise here is that they don't want to have to run on it, and we don't have to want to govern on it. Hopefully, between now and -- and the time that the next president takes office in January 21, 2009, somebody will have thought of something. Until this date, this administration has had one disaster after another. And I think what Senator Biden says is -- is -- is wise, and also true, but I don't know if it's going to come to pass, that -- that -- that we will be out of there by 2009. I think a lot of people are fearful we will be there for another 10 years.</s>KING: James Carville, thank you very much.</s>CARVILLE: Thank you, John. Appreciate it.</s>KING: And now David Gergen joins us once again. He worked for Mr. Carville's old boss, Bill Clinton, and several other additional commanders in chief before that. Welcome back to David Gergen. David, the president went into the East Room today. The White House said it would be a significant announcement about Iraq. Was there a significant announcement, a policy announcement, or was the significance in the fact that the president had to go into the East Room, less than two weeks before the election, and say what he said?</s>DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: It beats me. You know, usually, John, the president comes in with a well- crafted message that you understand what the headline is supposed to be after it's over. This time, he seemed to be flailing. There was no particular message. It was mushy. And -- and he said several things that fly in the face of what most people believe. He said, we're clearly winning in Iraq. Only 19 percent of the people in the country believe this, according to a recent poll. He said that the Maliki government has agreed to basically benchmarks for change. And the -- and Prime Minister Maliki, only a few hours before the press conference, said, absolutely, he had not agreed to such a timetable. And -- and, indeed, he attacked the U.S. for its attempt to pick up a Shiite anti-American leader. The president said, we have a plan for victory. Maybe we have a plan, but it's -- you know, it's a little bit secret to most people. We don't -- they don't see where it's going. So, I found this to be a surprising press conference. It does seem to me that, 13 days before this election, one more day of Iraq in the headlines associated with the president, without a clear message, is not a happy day for Republicans.</s>KING: Let's do more of the politics in a minute, but I want to touch on the policy...</s>GERGEN: Yes.</s>KING: ... point you just made. A message from Mr. Maliki -- I didn't authorize that raid. You cannot tell the Iraqi people when we have to do things. We don't accept timetables from outside forces -- how much of that, in your impression, is a significant policy divide with the White House? How much of it -- could it be that Mr. Maliki just feels, to play to the domestic audience back home, he needs to, at least rhetorically, have some distance with the White House?</s>GERGEN: Well, it's certainly -- he's certainly playing to his own home base. But -- and he's caught. He's the man in the middle. He has got his own base now that the Americans are trying to contain, and many -- because many of them constitute the militias. So, he's caught between the Americans. But, John, what -- what -- what is really striking now is that, in order to succeed in Iraq, we have to put a lot more pressure on the Maliki government. And he's already fighting back. It really raises the question, can we get this done? Is there even a possibility, if we push too hard, the Shiites are going to ask us to get out of there,and to get out of there fast. I mean, would it not be the ultimate irony if it's the Iraqis who ask us to leave?</s>KING: If -- if you were Chris Shays in Connecticut, a guy named Mike Fitzpatrick, we're going to see a bit later in the program, a race in the Philadelphia suburbs, Mark Kennedy, who has put this remarkable ad on TV out in Minnesota in his Senate race, if you're a Republican candidate running into a headwind on Iraq, do you want the president in the East Room for a little more than an hour talking about this?</s>GERGEN: I would argue not. I think there are some areas of the country where the president can do extraordinarily well. He still has strong, strong bases of support, so that, when he goes to a place like Florida, he goes to North Carolina, he goes into some of these other states, that's where he -- he retains his popularity. But it's really striking, John, that, in so many of the critical Senate races, you know, which are this -- the -- as the Senate hangs in the balance, it's the Republican candidates and their campaigns who are suggesting maybe the president ought not to come in there. So, when he goes on national television, he goes into every one of those states, where some of the candidates would just as soon not have him there.</s>KING: You have worked, David, in Democratic White Houses and in Republican White Houses. You have been brought in to White Houses midstream, usually at times when things are difficult and they need some help. This president, right now, is obviously in a very difficult moment of his presidency. You saw him today. He's a politician. He loves to be out there campaigning. He kept saying: I would love to be in the campaign. I love the campaign. But he's in the East Room of the White House, 13 days out, which means he's not welcome out there somewhere. How much of a problem is this for the party? And do you see the impact of that on the president?</s>GERGEN: I -- well, that's what the surprise about today was. I would think that -- you know, back in 2002, against a lot of people's advice, the president hit the -- the road, and went out and campaigned for a lot of Republican candidates. And everybody said he was taking a chance. But, in the end, he really helped the Republican candidates. And I do think, as we come down this home stretch, too, that -- that -- that one should remember, he's a pretty darn good politician out on the road. He's a very formidable politician. His policies are a problem. But his -- I mean, as a politician, he's pretty darn good. So, you know, one should -- to borrow his own phrase, one should not misunderestimate him...</s>GERGEN: ... as a -- as a politician. And, so, for him to be in the East Room, I don't get it. I don't get what the point was, unless you have got something clear to say that advances people's understanding, and gives them some greater sense of assurance. For him to wrap himself around Secretary Rumsfeld -- I -- I happen to respect Don Rumsfeld a great deal, but he's a lightning rod right now. I understand why the president wants to defend him. But for himself -- to wrap himself around, as if to say, he's going to be my man right through, when there are a lot of Republicans who, indeed, would like to see a change in that office after this election is over, is just -- it was a mystery to me today.</s>KING: David Gergen, always -- as always, appreciate your insights.</s>KING: And we will watch the president for 13 more days, and see if he has been misunderestimated, as he likes to put it.</s>GERGEN: OK.</s>KING: Again, David, thank you very much.</s>GERGEN: Thank you, John.</s>KING: And, from the president's message today, to the campaign ads that speak volumes, what no Republican has said until now in this campaign -- next on 360.