Ed Gordon talks with Clarence Lusane, associate professor of international relations at American University in Washington, D.C., about racism in Russia and elsewhere in Europe.
ED GORDON, host: Now, for more on the growing problem of racism in Europe, I spoke with Clarence Lusane, associate professor of International Relations at American University in Washington, D.C. Professor Lusane has been tracking neo-Nazi movements across Europe.</s>Prof. CLARENCE LUSANE (Associate Professor of International Relations, American University): The issue which we tried to deal with at the World Conference Against Racism in 2001 is one of inclusion. And what we're finding with the more negative impacts of globalization, which is forcing people to leave the global south and migrate to places where there are better opportunities, is that it's become very hard and very difficult, and in many cases very deadly, for people coming to these countries. And what we're finding in Russia--which has seriously never kind of recovered from the end of communism, and has struggled over issues of economics, overall--is that there has been a very harsh negative reaction against anybody perceived to be non-Russian.</s>Prof. CLARENCE LUSANE (Associate Professor of International Relations, American University): It certainly includes people of color, but it also includes people from the Caucusus, and a very virulent anti-Semitism has manifested itself as well in Russia.</s>ED GORDON, host: When you think about countries like Poland, the Czech Republic, Germany, Russia, Austria, you don't think about people of color--as you say not just black people but people of color in general. Yet, we are starting to see, particularly over the last 20 years or so, a growing population in all of these areas, people of color.</s>Prof. CLARENCE LUSANE (Associate Professor of International Relations, American University): There certainly is. And particularly in Russia, since that is the focus of our topic, here's a carryover from the people who were there prior to--during the cold war, when communism existed, many who had come over from African countries who were part of the liberation movement and came to Russia to study.</s>Prof. CLARENCE LUSANE (Associate Professor of International Relations, American University): Since that period, there has also been another population of people coming from Africa, for example, who were part of refugee communities. About a year or so ago I was coming back from Ghana, and I was on the plane and sat next to young man who was studying journalism in Moscow--who was from Liberia but had been a refugee in Ghana and had gotten a scholarship to go study. And he had horrible stories about how foreigners were being treated. And essentially, the only safe spot, or the safest spot for people who were studying, was to basically go to school and come back home.</s>Prof. CLARENCE LUSANE (Associate Professor of International Relations, American University): But even as we've seen in the papers, a number of these areas where people have lived, have been sat on fire--they've been attacked. So it's a very dangerous and increasingly dangerous situation that people in Russia are facing, who are perceived to foreigners.</s>ED GORDON, host: There are those who will say that they're just great nationalists, that they want and believe in xenophobia in terms of keeping the true tradition of a land alive--versus the concern of bringing in others. Yet many feel that's just a cloak to suggest that they don't want anybody who doesn't look like them there.</s>Prof. CLARENCE LUSANE (Associate Professor of International Relations, American University): What we're finding is that there are links between those nationalist groups and very explicit white supremacist organizations and individuals--across Europe and even in the United States.  So the Ku Klux Klan, David Duke--all who have been extremely clear on their views on race--have made connections and links with a lot of the neo-fascist and racist organizations across Europe.</s>ED GORDON, host: Yes, Clarence, we should make note--and we talk about the globalization of the world, and the world getting smaller--The Southern Poverty Law center, which tracks hate crimes, has linked David Duke to neo-Nazi groups in Russia, and in fact, showed that he has traveled quite a bit, including to neighboring Ukraine.</s>Prof. CLARENCE LUSANE (Associate Professor of International Relations, American University): Initially in the 1990s, he'd actually targeted Western Europe and spent time with some of the racist groups in the UK, and other parts, and then Ireland and other parts of Western Europe. But in the last six or seven years or so, he's targeted Eastern Europe, and Russia in particular. So he's made trips to Russia. He has connections with a number of very prominent Russian politicians, as well as he's been involved with some of the skinhead organizations.</s>Prof. CLARENCE LUSANE (Associate Professor of International Relations, American University): And across that region, across Eastern Europe, he's found a reception because those movements--like in Russia--have grown up across the region. And somebody like David Duke, who's a prominent figure in that community, has been welcomed and has been seen as a star.  And so, he's targeted and building links with those communities.  It's interesting because, some of the first groups to use the Internet for political mobilization, were the far right. So even as far back as the late 1980s, they were making links internationally through the Internet. And so David Duke, is like the fruit of all of that.</s>ED GORDON, host: What does all of this say, Clarence, in the big picture of race and trying to get past the ignorance of--when we see growth in these countries, when we see the idea that is still very much alive--in the United States?</s>Prof. CLARENCE LUSANE (Associate Professor of International Relations, American University): Well, I think it's very incumbent on national political leaders to, not only speak out against these issues, but to put policies in place, and make sure those policies are enforced--that says that we are living in a period of inclusion. We're living in a period of nondiscrimination, in a period of accepting people. And I think that has been absent on the Eastern European front.  In Western and Central Europe, there're very strong policies that aren't always enforced, but the policies are in place and the ethos is one of equality, inclusion, nondiscrimination. We haven't seen an equivalent of that in Eastern Europe. And certainly, there hasn't been any strong leadership that's said it's completely unacceptable and that the skinhead organizations should be outlawed. There should be strong anti-racism legislation, and immigrants, which are needed in all of those societies, should be embraced and should be protected.</s>ED GORDON, host: Clarence Lusane is associate professor of international relations at American University in Washington, D.C.  Professor, thank you.</s>Prof. CLARENCE LUSANE (Associate Professor of International Relations, American University): Thank you.</s>ED GORDON, host: Coming up next, Osama Bin Laden calls for Jihad in Darfur.  And is Bill Clinton too cool for politics?  We'll discuss these topics and more on our roundtable.