Interview of Collin Vause, Brian Fahling
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: The big question this hour, does a parent lose his rights because of a sex-change operation? A child custody case in Florida is about to examine the legal issue, and could set a precedent. Michael Kantaras is not the biological parent of either of his two children, but he is divorcing his wife, the woman there, Linda, and fighting her for primary custody. Michael is a transsexual, born Margo, and since reassignment surgery in 1987 and hormone treatment, has been living as a man. Now in Florida, same-sex marriages are not recognized, and Linda Kantaras, after years of being together and raising their children together, she now claims that Michael lacks the basic necessities for custody.</s>LINDA KANTARAS: Michael Kantaras is a woman who thinks he's a man. He had a transgender change. He's a woman.</s>COOPER: But, does changing your sex mean you don't have parental rights? Joining us now to talk about this issue from Tampa, Collin Vause, attorney for Michael Kantaras. And from Tupelo, Mississippi, Brian Fahling, attorney for the American Family Association. Thanks very much for being with us. Collin, starting off with you, in your opinion, what is the essential question that the judge has to answer in this case?</s>COLLIN VAUSE, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL KANTARAS: The essential question is whether or not Michael Kantaras is legally a male, or whether, as his wife now claims during the litigation, he is a woman. Throughout the marriage, she has always held Michael out as her husband. She always believed Michael was a male, and she basically has changed her position just for litigation purposes because it is going to be advantageous to her claim for custody.</s>COOPER: Now, if Michael Kantaras ruled to be a woman, then, in effect, it has been a same-sex marriage, which is not a marriage in the state of Florida, therefore, there is no custody. Is that correct?</s>VAUSE: That would be a problem if the judge finds that Kantaras is a woman. However, the overwhelming evidence at trial has established that he is, in fact, a male. In fact, the medical community accepts him as a male, his family accepts him as a male, his neighbors, the 17 people who he directly supervises at work, all accept him as a male, and there is no reason why the court shouldn't follow suit.</s>COOPER: Brian Fahling, let me bring you in. Is Michael Kantaras a male? He has had hormone therapy. He has had some sexual reassignment surgery. Presents as a male. Is he a man?</s>BRIAN FAHLING, ATTORNEY, AMERICAN FAMILY ASSOCIATION: Well, if we count chromosomes, Michael Kantaras is a female. The immutable fact here, scientifically, is that Michael Kantaras is a woman. You can alter physical appearance, but what you can't alter is genetic code, and Mr. Kantaras is clearly a woman by that definition, which is one that, historically, I think, we have all accepted.</s>COOPER: So you and your organization are basically saying there is no such thing as changing genders, there is no such thing as...</s>FAHLING: There really is not. It's a physical impossibility. You know, the strength of belief does not determine that Mr. Kantaras is actually a man any more than me thinking I'm Napoleon makes me Napoleon.</s>COOPER: What about this being a cynical strategy by his wife, that for years they lived together as man and wife. She seemed to accept it at the time, she seemed willing to raise the children with this person as their father. Brian, is this just a cynical strategy?</s>FAHLING: Well, I don't know about her strategy. But the implications from a legal and social policy perspective are profound. In other words, whatever her strategy may be, the law says that there's a marriage between a man and a woman, and then from that, you can get custody and visitation issues, but you cannot have a marriage between two women, which is, in fact, what we have here.</s>COOPER: Collin, this has got to be extraordinarily difficult for both parties. What is your client going through in the wake of all this?</s>VAUSE: Well, having to listen to an oversimplification, as the gentleman just said, makes it difficult. There's much more to it than chromosomes. Gender dysphoria is a recognized medical condition, and through many years of experience and research, the medical community has come up with a treatment for people such as Michael Kantaras, which includes hormone therapy, a battery of tests, and psychological interviews, and ultimately the gender reassignment surgery. He has completed all of that, and as a result of completing that protocol, that medical protocol, he is now medically a male, and to say that it is simply because the chromosomes may or may not say one thing or another about whether he is a female or a male does not make sense. There's much more to it. For example, there are intersexed individuals whose have ambiguous genitalia, or who have genitalia of both sexes. And chromosomes are not going to help you determine anything in a case such as that. And then you have transsexuals such as Michael Kantaras who know from the very core of being that they are male. So...</s>COOPER: All right.</s>VAUSE: Go ahead.</s>COOPER: Collin, thank you very much -- both Collin and Brian Fahling, thanks very much for being with us this morning. I'm afraid that is all the time we have. It is a very interesting case. It will, in many cases, perhaps make a legal precedent in the state of Florida, and we will be watching. Thanks very much for joining us this morning.</s>VAUSE: Thank you.</s>FAHLING: Thank you. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com