Interviews With Hanan Ashrawi, Alon Pinkas
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's turn now for the Palestinian perspective for all of this. Hanan Ashrawi is a member of the Palestinian cabinet. She joins us from Ramallah in the West Bank -- Ms. Ashrawi, good to have you with us.</s>HANAN ASHRAWI, PALESTINIAN LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL: Thank you. I'm a member of the legislative council, not the cabinet. I refused my appointment.</s>O'BRIEN: Very good point. I read that and I thought that was odd. I apologize. My mistake for reading it. But in any case, is Yasser Arafat serious about reform, Ms. Ashrawi?</s>ASHRAWI: Well Yasser Arafat is facing, I think, irresistible pressure from the Palestinian public, from the Palestinian legislative council. The momentum has been building up. And so, in a sense, his hand is forced. And he did make a declaration of intent to the legislative council, which meant that he is committed. Now the question is, how do we translate this commitment into concrete actions now that we have presented him with a plan of action?</s>O'BRIEN: What does he need to do, from your perspective, in order to engage in reform? How far must he go?</s>ASHRAWI: Well there are reforms that are immediate and that are subject to an independent Palestinian decision, and they should be taken immediately. There are others that are dependent on Israeli behavior, because when you're under siege, when you're being shelled or when people are being assassinated, when Israeli incursions take place every day, when we have no freedom of movement, there are other issues that cannot be implemented. When it comes to elections, for example...</s>O'BRIEN: What do the Israelis need to do from your perspective, then?</s>ASHRAWI: I think they need to lift the siege, they need to stop their assassinations policy, their incursions, their shooting, their abductions, in order not just to provide the proper atmosphere and mindset for free and fair elections, but also so that we can have freedom of movement, freedom of assembly, in order to have these elections. But issues that deal with Palestinians alone, like structural reform, procedural reform, legislative reform, constitutional reform, and, of course, fiscal financial reform, all these things are things we can do immediately.</s>O'BRIEN: It seems to me, Ms. Ashrawi, this whole latest incident and the siege in Ramallah and the outcomes that we're dealing with right now have laid bare a lot of discontent about Mr. Arafat's style of leadership. Is that accurate to say? And how do the Palestinian people feel about Yasser Arafat right now?</s>ASHRAWI: Well the Palestinian people make a distinction between Yasser Arafat as a person, who was besieged, who was held hostage or imprisoned, who is being attacked and bashed, and they have rallied around him and they look at him as a symbol, as a national symbol as well. But they also want to see an efficient democratic system of inclusive government. They want to see an active democracy. They want to see honesty and integrity in government. These things are not slogans. These are immediate demands. So while they are willing to give Arafat the chance, and they consider him the source of his reform -- he has to take the decision to reform -- they know that in terms of laws, in terms of working procedures, in terms of systems, that there has to be a concrete reform. And they want to see a change in the people that are around Arafat, in the cabinet, as well as in security systems and even in administration as a whole. These are issues that the Palestinian people seek and...</s>O'BRIEN: Is Yasser Arafat's government corrupt?</s>ASHRAWI: Well I think it's probably less corrupt than most governments around. But at the same time, the Palestinians are extremely critical and intrusive. We feel that this government has to be held accountable. That the cabinet has failed and they should have resigned. At least the latest incursion, as you said, led by many flaws, many shortcomings, lack of professionalism and so on. Mismanagement probably, yes. There was a corruption report that was presented years ago. We have been asking for reform repeatedly, for the rule of law, for respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. These are Palestinian issues. The corruption in its convention (ph) in a sense has not become part of the Palestinian culture. That's why they are so distinct, the people who have abused their position, misused public funds. They are the people who need to be held accountable, and we need a system that is efficient, transparent and accountable. And everybody has to be subject to the rule of law.</s>O'BRIEN: Hanan Ashrawi, thank you very much. Sorry to get your title wrong. We appreciate you joining us this morning on</s>CNN SUNDAY MORNING. ASHRAWI: OK, my pleasure, Miles.</s>O'BRIEN: All right. Take care. Let's get more now on these developments from the Israeli perspective. And joining us from New York for that is Alon Pinkas, the Israeli Consul General. Unfortunately, he's on the phone for some technical reasons. We apologize for that. Mr. Pinkas, good to have you with us.</s>ALON PINKAS, ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL: Good morning, Miles. Good to be with you.</s>O'BRIEN: Were you able to hear Ms. Ashrawi?</s>PINKAS: Yes, absolutely.</s>O'BRIEN: All right. What's your first reaction to it?</s>PINKAS: Well, I have to admit, Miles, that I never found myself agreeing with so much of what Ms. Ashrawi has to say. And today's the day. I think she made some important points.</s>O'BRIEN: Wow. There's a news flash right there, I guess. There's a news flash right there. She did say that the Israelis need to do a fair amount here to ensure that an election process can begin. Are the Israelis prepared to do that?</s>PINKAS: Yes, I think we are.</s>O'BRIEN: Really? Tell me about it.</s>PINKAS: I think we are. Look, what needs to be discussed is what exactly they mean by allowing them to have a political process. They're quite able and capable of doing that without us. But if reform in the Palestinian Authority, which includes more transparency, a democratization process, a due process of law, a separation of powers, and ultimately elections, requires Israel to contribute its part, we will more than gladly do it. Because all of those things that Ms. Ashrawi said that the Palestinian Authority needs to do are things that would benefit Israel as well. And as far as we're concerned, also serve as some kind of a prerequisite to a serious political process. The reason we have not succeeded until now was the structure and the corruption and the political deficiencies of the Palestinian -- amongst other reasons of the Palestinian Authority. And I think she's absolutely right.</s>O'BRIEN: All right. But before we get swept away by a tide of optimism here, we've heard talk like this before and yet the reform has not come. Are you -- do you think something is different now? Is there such momentum and enough pressure on Yasser Arafat that this sort of reform that is being promised will actually materialize?</s>PINKAS: Let me say it this way, Miles, I think there is more pressure on him now than there ever was. And I think he inflicted this pressure on him because he ran a regime of terror that -- what we call transparency and structural reform is not meant to democratize the Palestinians. We want them to in that (ph), but that's their business. The problem is that there were seven different armed militia, three different security</s>O'BRIEN: Well let's assume that some of these reforms begin. What would the Israelis be prepared to do to show good faith from the other side if, in fact, there was some concrete action on the part of the Palestinians?</s>PINKAS: The Palestinians already held elections in 1996 under the auspices of international monitors. I think that's a possibility that can be discussed, just for the elections -- international observers for the political observers for these elections. I think that every other reform that the Palestinians need to do can be done without our intervention. But if they ask us to do a few things, which I cannot specify now because I just don't know, if they require that Israel do something in order to facilitate a more expedient and a more efficient political reform process, then by all means we will consider it.</s>O'BRIEN: All right. But I mean, will there be a carrot out there? Israel has been using the stick. Is it time to use the carrot, and what incentives specifically would the Israelis put on the table?</s>PINKAS: Again, the Palestinians are already a self-governing authority. The problems we had, the criticisms that we had was about the quality of that governance and the use of terror. The reform that they need to do is something they can do without us. They can do -- this is an indigenous political process. What kind of carrots? They need to tell us what kind of carrots they would like for us to consider it.</s>O'BRIEN: But what about the settlements?</s>PINKAS: That has nothing to do with the reform process. That has everything to do with the comprehensive peace agreement, of course.</s>O'BRIEN: Right.</s>PINKAS: But that has nothing to do with political reform in the Palestinian Authority.</s>O'BRIEN: So just to be clear, you don't think it's Israel's responsibility at all to encourage this process necessarily?</s>PINKAS: I'm sorry?</s>O'BRIEN: It's not Israel's responsibility in any way to encourage this process or reward this process?</s>PINKAS: Oh, absolutely, we're encouraging it, but you have to understand: The type of relationship that exists between us and the Palestinians is so complex and so riddled with suspicion that the more we encourage, the more we intervene, the more we intervene, the less likely it is that they will succeed. I don't think that they want us in this process, nor do we want to be in this process. This is part of the -- perhaps we're back to square one, but this is part of a new political process. They need to do it themselves. And as for the settlements, this was discussed as early as Camp David. We all know about that already.</s>O'BRIEN: Alon Pinkas, Israeli consul general, joining us on the line from New York. For technical reasons, we apologize for not having his visage on television. Thank you for being with us.</s>PINKAS: Thank you, Miles. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com