Election 2000: When Will it End?
TERRE CASS, LEON CO. COURT ADMINISTRATOR: On the limited evidence presented, it appears the secretary has exercised her reasoned judgment to determine what relevant factors and criteria should be considered, apply them to the facts and circumstances pertinent to the individual counties involved and made her decision. My order requires nothing more.</s>JAMES BAKER, BUSH CAMPAIGN OBSERVER: The rule of law has prevailed. We now look forward to the prompt counting and reporting of the limited number of uncounted overseas absentee ballots, so that the process of achieving a final result to the election in Florida is not subject to further delays.</s>WARREN CHRISTOPHER, GORE CAMPAIGN OBSERVER: To the extent that Judge Lewis' decision today is contrary to that, we believe it is incorrect, and we will be appealing it to the Supreme Court of Florida.</s>BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: It ain't over until it's over, and it ain't over yet. When and how will election 2000 end?</s>BATTISTA: Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. Well, a big ruling today in the Florida recount opens the door to the possibility, just the possibility, that it could all end this weekend. But a lot can happen, as you know, in the next 21 hours. As you might imagine, Florida's Secretary of State Katherine Harris is pleased with this morning's court decision. She issued written statement saying -- quote -- "I am pleased that Judge Terry Lewis has supported my authority to exercise the duties assigned by law to the office of secretary of state. We will continue to follow the election procedures provided by Florida law, and we anticipate receiving the certifications of the overseas absentee ballots from all counties by noon tomorrow. Acting again as our legal guide today is CNN legal analyst Greta Van Susteren, who is in West Palm Beach, and Roger Cossack joining us from Washington today. Hello, again, you guys.</s>GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hello, Bobbie.</s>BATTISTA: Rog, is your mike on. Can we hear you? Give us a test there, because I'm not sure I heard you. We're having a little trouble with Roger's mike, so we'll try to fix that. Great, tell us why you think Judge Lewis made the decision he did this morning?</s>VAN SUSTEREN: It wasn't a question, Bobbie, of whether or not he agreed with the secretary of state's decision to reject any hand- counted votes that are posted after Tuesday. It wasn't a question of whether he agreed with it. That wasn't what he was looking at. What the law was -- supposed -- what he was supposed to do is to look at it and see whether she exercised judgment, reasoned judgment, and he concluded that she did, and that's part of her job as secretary of state, and so for that reason, he agreed that she had the authority, and even though he may agree with her, I don't know. But even if he didn't agree, he said, he has the authority to do this. And so she made her decision, and that at least stays in the trial court. But as we know, going up to the Florida Supreme Court, and we'll hear finally what the final word is on this.</s>BATTISTA: Roger, hypothetically speaking, what would have constituted an arbitrary rejection?</s>ROGER COSSACK, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, that's a good question, because there doesn't seem to be any written standards that I have able to come across so far. But let me give you some hypotheticals on an arbitrary rejection. If she would have just said that, you know, nothing you can say would make me change my mind, or I don't care, I'm not going to take them, or it doesn't matter or something like that. What Greta said is really the key. The key is, whatever she articulated -- and remember, she required something in writing for them from the counties by 2:00 the next day and they gave their reasons, and what she said was, you know, those reasons just aren't good enough, and therefore, I'm the elected official that's in charge of making this decision, the people of Florida voted for me. I'm making the decision, and what Judge Lewis has said is, you know, the rational that you suggested is good enough. I mean, you have rejected what they said, and that's fine.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: You know, Roger, where I think she may get hung up, though. This is what my eye is on. And I don't know how the Florida Supreme Court is going to rule, but you had four counties that submitted letters to her. Collier County, which wasn't even asking for an additional hand count. It just wanted to add some more votes to its tally for another reason. Then you had Miama-Dade, which just basically sent a - letter, saying we would like to do it, too, us, too. And so there was no reason why Miami-Dade thought that they should be able to do a hand count. Then you had Broward, that said, look, we're a big county, we had more votes than we ever expected, we weren't ready for it, so we have to do hand count, not particularly convincing argument since they really -- you know, They knew the election was coming; they should have been ready for it, and that may not -- my Attention isn't so much on that. But in the county I'm sitting in, in West Palm Beach, they did the hand count on Saturday, and by law, they had to do 1 percent. of the precincts. They did that one percent, and 19...</s>BATTISTA: Greta, excuse me for interrupting, I'm sorry. We've got to switch over now to Miami-Dade County where Gore attorney Kendall Coffey is addressing, I think, the canvassing board down there.</s>BATTISTA: We seem to have lost our audio from this Miami-Dade feed. What you are watching Democratic and Republican lawyers make arguments before the canvassing board in Miami-Dade. Miami-Dade opted not to do a hand recount down there. And the Democratic lawyer, obviously Kendall Coffey, is trying to get them to reconsider that and to change their minds and do a partial hand recount in that county. Roger and Greta, your thoughts on what's going on down there?</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Well, I don't know what to say. What, Roger?</s>COSSACK: I am going to give it to you because there's not much to say.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: I will give you a tidbit.</s>COSSACK: Two lawyers doing a little whining. I know you don't have a monitor down there.</s>COSSACK: As I was watching, I was saying, boy, these two would drive Greta crazy.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Wait a second. Stop right there. Bob Martinez went to school with me. So, leave Bob Martinez alone.</s>BATTISTA: Hey you guys, actually, the one piece of -- the one little, tiny bit of news that came out because we knew this was inevitable, but he did confirm that the state Supreme Court is now considering Judge Lewis' ruling from this morning. So, we know that is underway. But we don't know when they are going to rule on that.</s>COSSACK: Bobbie, is that for sure? Greta?</s>BATTISTA: Kendall Coffey said that.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: I don't know if the technical filing has been done. But Democrats have said over and over today they intend to file. So, obviously they have got to get their papers together. Filing a notice of appeal is a very routine thing. It should takes lawyers all of about 15 seconds. They file a line that says, I want to repeal this matter and be done with it and then you file. It becomes more complicated when you add briefs to it and say -- and you've got to explain why it is you think you should win. And it makes a lot of sense for the Democratic lawyers or any losing side when they make a request for emergency hearing that they don't simply submit the one-page line that says, I not simply submit the one-page line saying I want help fast. I want to file a notice of appeal that they actually present their argument explaining to the Florida Supreme Court why this is so important that they do it right now rather than sit and not -- rather than wait.</s>BATTISTA: You know, the timing on when they rule on this, Roger, is pretty important.</s>COSSACK: Right.</s>BATTISTA: Is it going to happen before noon tomorrow?</s>COSSACK: I would think so. I think that this is an issue that they clearly could have seen was coming. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they actually had research already prepared pending the briefs that, of course, will be turned in. I know, as Greta suggests, both sides have been preparing their briefs knowing this eventually is going to get here. And, you know, the interesting thing about it is this could be the end of this. If the Florida Supreme Court decides, whenever it does decide, today, tomorrow, that Katherine Harris was -- did not abuse her discretion, that could be the end of this whole discussion.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Well, not exactly, though, Roger, not exactly, though. I think it actually puts it into -- you know, chapter, whatever chapter we're on. It moves it into a new chapter. Because remember, after certification in Florida, under the law in Florida is that a candidate can then contest the election, say I'm the one that should have won. So what it does is it puts us into another stage. But I agree with you. I bet the Florida Supreme Court has been researching this issue for three days. And we saw this sort of advanced notice, at least I think so, in the case earlier this week. On Saturday, the Republicans filed the request for an injunction in federal court. On Monday, the judge heard the decision and he said, I'm going to make -- I'm going to deliver a written decision in one hour. An hour later, he came out with 24 pages, which suggested to me that he was busy writing well before -- before he said was going to make the decision. So they anticipate this -- these issue and begin researching them.</s>BATTISTA: I've got a question from David here in the audience, who just happens to be from West Palm Beach.</s>DAVID: Hi, good afternoon.</s>COSSACK: Hello.</s>DAVID: My question is if you could talk about state sovereignty as far as the legal, historical significance of states' ability to finalize this decision making in these matters of elections, and ultimately is this going to -- the decision by the Florida Supreme Court, is this going to be binding?</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Let me give you a rule of thumb...</s>COSSACK: Well, I would think that presumptively it will be binding. Let me -- I'll give you a quick two minutes -- a quick one minute on state sovereignty. When it comes to these kinds of things, the Constitution as well as the law seems to be -- in fact, it's pretty strong that the states should handle this. They want -- the federal government should stay out of it. As long as the state runs an election that isn't contrary to our Constitution or doesn't violate any constitutional standards or statutory standards, then the Florida courts should handle this. Now, you know, there will always -- there can always be an argument that in fact something has happened which may violate the Constitution. This butterfly ballot is one that conceivably the a claim could be made. But I can tell you that generally -- and I know, Greta, you probably agree with me on this one -- presumptively it ends up in the state Supreme Court.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: Ditto.</s>BATTISTA: Oh, OK, you do agree.</s>COSSACK: Wow.</s>VAN SUSTEREN: I agree.</s>BATTISTA: You do agree. OK, on that note then we'll let you guys go. We appreciate your time and once again...</s>COSSACK: Thank you.</s>BATTISTA: ... your time and insight on this. Thanks very much. As we go to break, a couple of e-mails. Sharon from Washington, "Enough is enough. Please, Vice President Gore, concede with some dignity. Run again in 2004." Dan from California says, "Katherine Harris is nothing but a hitman for the GOP. She's stealing this election for Bush." We'll be back and talk with two Florida congressman right after the break.</s>BATTISTA: Welcome back. Joining us now, Florida Democratic Congressman Peter Deutsch. His 20th Congressional District includes western Broward County as well as parts of Miami-Dade County. Also with us, Republican Congressman Mark Foley from Florida's 16th District. We're still getting him set up technically. Let me start with Congressman Deutsch. First of all, your reaction to Judge Lewis's ruling this morning?</s>REP. PETER DEUTSCH (D), FLORIDA: Well, you know, Judge Lewis in Tallahassee really said that he doesn't want to deal with a hypothetical set of circumstances, which is what he had said previously. Which I think he's really hoping that Kathy Harris uses her discretion the correct way and accepts these ballot, which none of us, I think, expect. I mean, she has ignored the law, in fact I think has really done extra legal things to prevent a fair and accurate vote count from occurring in Broward County and in the state of Florida.</s>BATTISTA: Let me get a reaction now from Congressman Foley. Are you with us now?</s>CROWD: ... Gore goodbye, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, hey, hey, hey, goodbye.</s>BATTISTA: We're getting your audio from the background, Congressman Foley, but we're not getting you, I don't think. So we'll try to fix that and get a response from you in just a minute. Meanwhile, Congressman Deutsch, did the hand count -- OK, we've got Congressman Foley now. Can you hear me now, Congressman? Congressman Foley?</s>BATTISTA: Now I don't think he can hear me. Congressman Deutsch?</s>DEUTSCH: Yes, if you want I can respond to the court case, another court case by the Republicans in an attempt to stop a fair and accurate count was thrown out by a judge in Broward County just a couple of minutes ago. You know, the lawyer pointed out a picture of people looking at the ballots and saying it's subjective. And Governor Bush has said it's subjective a number of occasions, Secretary Baker at this point probably has said it 100 times. If they say it 10,000 times, it's not going to change the results. Florida law provides for hand counts because they re more accurate. And they are more accurate because the computer cannot read the partially removed chads. And a visual inspection is what's needed for that to occur.</s>BATTISTA: Congressman...</s>DEUTSCH: And we're not having constitutional debates over what a chad is, out or not, when there are people looking.</s>BATTISTA: And, Congressman Foley, you're with us now?</s>REP. MARK FOLEY (R), FLORIDA: Yes, I hope so, Bobbie.</s>BATTISTA: Yes, we've got you.</s>FOLEY: Good deal.</s>BATTISTA: Your thoughts on these hand counts continuing. I mean, at this point are the -- if the state Supreme Court decides to uphold Judge Lewis's ruling, what happens to the hand counts?</s>FOLEY: Well, I think they're ruled inadmissible basically. I think the secretary observing the law as it was written by legislators in Florida said, you had a deadline, 5:00 p.m. on Tuesday. She's adhering to that deadline. And I believe that if Palm Beach County wanted to count ballots they should have done it last week. They're doing it now. They started, they stopped, there's subjective analysis of what is vote is. I mean, I've heard several different standards. Years ago in Palm Beach County, a dimple or a slight impression was never allowed within the ballot system to be counted as a vote. Just recently, eight weeks ago, Beverly Green, a Republican African-American in the primary, had a 14 vote margin of loss. She came to the board and asked if she could have a recount. She got one by machine, when she increased winning by one -- or not winning but shrunk her loss by one vote, she then said let's do hand count because it's so close. The Democratic board here, the canvassing board said absolutely not. You can't prove mechanical error or software error, we simply deny your request because it's not in single digits.</s>DEUTSCH: Mark, I've got to jump in. That's not what they say. Mark, what you forget to tell people is that the number of votes was so small that that 14 votes was less than the statutory requirement of less than .1 percent of the votes required before there can be a manual hand count. You're just --- you know, that's why their wasn't a manual hand count. It wasn't provided under Florida statute. And Mark, the again, the reason that we have...</s>FOLEY: Peter, Vice President Gore beat -- Vice President Gore beat Bush by over 125,000 votes in Palm Beach County. If the standard is close proximity, almost...</s>DEUTSCH: But by 300 votes statewide. So 300 votes is obviously...</s>FOLEY: Statewide.</s>DEUTSCH: Right.</s>FOLEY: Then why are you using Palm Beach County as a statewide barometer? It's not fair.</s>DEUTSCH: The standard that was used in Palm Beach County...</s>DEUTSCH: No, Mark. Mark, I listened to you. You can listen to me.</s>FOLEY: Sure, I'll be happy to.</s>DEUTSCH: The standard in the state statute provides for a recount going from that 1 percent to the countywide situation when it could have an effect on the election. Obviously, the 19 votes that they found with the 1 percent extrapolated over the country would be 1,900 votes, far in excess of the 300. And Mark, your other statement -- I really feel like we're beginning to be in "Alice in Wonderland." The reason the hand recount wasn't completed is because the secretary of state ordered them to stop. And now she's saying, well you haven't done it yet.</s>FOLEY: That was on Tuesday, Peter. That was on Tuesday. They had from last Thursday.</s>DEUTSCH: Mark, they stopped in Broward.</s>BATTISTA: I've got to jump in here.</s>FOLEY: Thank you, Bobbie.</s>BATTISTA: I've got to jump in here and take a commercial break. I have questions for the Congressmen when we come back.</s>BATTISTA: Question from Keith in the audience. Go ahead, Keith.</s>KEITH: Thank you very much. I have a question for Congressman Deutsch. I saw him on television the day after the election with a very impassioned plea about getting all these disturbing phone calls from his constituents in tears about how they might have voted incorrectly. But what came to light several days later, and I'm wondering why we didn't also hear was that these very same people had been phoned by Democratic phone banks planting fear in their minds on how they may have voted.</s>BATTISTA: Let me hold the answer on that, because we have to go live now to Judge Burton of the Palm Beach Canvassing Board, who's speaking.</s>BATTISTA: All right, Judge Burton of the Palm Beach canvassing board giving us an update there on how the recount is going. Slowly would be the operative word, I think, but they're doing the best that they can. Sounds like they have quite a ways to go, obviously. All right, Keith, you had a question for Congressman Deutsch.</s>KEITH: Thank you Bobbie. Yes, I'll just restate: I saw Congressman Deutsch on another news network, I think it was on November 9, making a very impassioned plea for his constituents, who had called in in tears, supposedly so upset because they were afraid because they were afraid that they had, maybe, punched the wrong hole on the ballot. And I'm wondering why we didn't also hear about the fact that it was a democratic telephone board that was calling these people, throwing them into this fear and this tizzy, saying to them, are you aware that this butterfly ballot may have led you to vote the wrong way.</s>DEUTSCH: Well, you know, again, the issue of the ballot in Palm Beach County is really not exactly what we're talking about now. What we're talking about now is the actual manual recount which is provided under Florida law to get a more accurate result. I'm not sure if Vice President Gore would challenge that. In fact, he made a really Solomon-esque offer to Governor Bush a couple nights ago and said, hey, listen, let's just recount the state of Florida, even though, statutorily, you've missed the window to count some counties. And again, let me point out, at least one Republican county had been counted by hand and gained 100 votes for Governor Bush and the vice president at that point said, hey, let's just, for the good of the country, move forward. And, unfortunately, Governor Bush rejected that because, I think what's clear from his legal action and extra legal action and political action, he does not want a fair and accurate count in the state of Florida.</s>BATTISTA: Congressman Deutsch, if the Supreme Court, tomorrow, supports Judge Lewis' ruling and upholds that these late hand counts don't have to be counted, what recourse do the voters down there have, let alone the Gore campaign?</s>DEUTSCH: Let me tell you, I would be shocked if the Florida Supreme Court does not, under the circumstances that have occurred over the last week and a half, where the secretary of state basically, you know, stopped the recounts and then, all of a sudden, we ran out of time -- her political actions directly, with the head of the Republican Party, which really questions -- and brings into very serious question her actions and activity. Florida case law is very clear as well as the statute, is very clear as well. We have manual recounts provided under Florida law. They're not unprecedented; we've had about a dozen previously. There was one in my county, in Broward County to elect a mayor. There was one in Palm Beach County to elect a county commissioner. There's a very strict circumstance when they're allowed to proceed and they're there to get a fair and accurate count. I would be shocked if the Florida Supreme Court, especially based on their opinion yesterday, does not allow that fair and accurate count to occur.</s>BATTISTA: Let me go quickly to our Washington bureau, to CNN's Chris Black who has an update on -- we're hearing that the Vice President may make an appearance in the next 15 minutes or so. Chris has a preview of that.</s>CHRIS BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Bobbie the vice president, according to his political advisers, will make a preemptive strike in just a few minutes. He will tell the American people that it is too soon to declare the election over. There is great concern within the Gore campaign that events may be spinning out of control today in light of Judge Lewis' decision earlier today and the fact that the absentee ballots are beginning to be reported in Florida and they do not expect to win those absentee ballots. But they say the vice president will say, wait a minute, take a step back, and he will say that it is Florida's highest court, the state Supreme Court that will be the final arbiter of this election -- Bobbie.</s>BATTISTA: Is he going to say, then, that the decision made the Florida state Supreme Court is the final answer, if you will?</s>BLACK: As far as the Gore campaign is concerned, that is where it will end up. They feel pretty good about the state Supreme Court in Florida. That court is the same court that issued an interim ruling just yesterday that allowed the recounts to continue in Broward and Palm Beach Counties. And they feel that, if they can make their case, present their case to the full court; and, in fact, the certification that they expect -- the certification of the votes that they expect the secretary of state to do tomorrow, will actually trigger the opportunity for them to present a full case before the state Supreme Court. And they're hopeful, still, that they can win that.</s>BATTISTA: All right, CNN's Chris Black, thanks very much for that update. Let me go back -- let me ask Congressman Foley because I know there was some discussion going on in the Bush camp about this earlier today -- if the certification is made at noon tomorrow that Governor Bush has won the state of Florida, is he prepared to claim victory?</s>FOLEY: Well, I can't answer for the Bush campaign on that issue. I hope everybody will relax a bit and take their time. We still have to wait for, again, the absentees to be counted. If it goes in his favor I think he has every reason to claim victory. You just heard the judge say, who came out here on the canvassing board, last night there were too many people in the room, there was too much commotion and somebody dropped a stack of ballots. Now if you're a swinging chad or a hanging chads and all of these ballots fall on the floor, you may just have become eligible to be counted. So that's our concern: the confusion, the mayhem and the bedlam. And Peter Deutsch said earlier, which I have to refute -- he mentioned if the election is close, we have a right to count the ballots again. Well it would be correct if in palm Beach County the election was close, but it's not. So to take a statewide average and say we're within a margin of error and then selectively pick the counties you'd like to recount to get to your number, then I think you're using a non-objective standard.</s>DEUTSCH: Let me mention to you that the vice president put on the table: recount the whole state. There were specific reasons why those four counties were chosen. One is, obviously there was a ballot problem in Palm Beach County; Volusia County, the computer stopped working; Broward County, we had over 6,000 under-votes, people whose votes weren't counted; and there were allegations in Dade County. So, you know, those counties were chosen for very, very specific reasons and the Bush campaign had the opportunity do that as well and they did it in Seminole County -- Seminole County was hand counted.</s>BATTISTA: Let me ask quickly about the -- yes.</s>FOLEY: Bobbie, I'd urge your voters to go to the Web page of "The Palm Beach Post" because today, in their paper, they analyzed a number of counties who were using a single-page ballot. There is a huge number of uncounted or over-counted ballots in Florida, 173,000. So what they're saying is, is Palm Beach county an anomaly? It is not. Many, many counties have had to destroy ballots because they failed to either vote or they voted for two candidates in one race. So please stop representing that Palm Beach County is some wild Western town that can't figure out to do a ballot system.</s>DEUTSCH: Well, again, I don't doubt what you said, Mark. There is always over-voting in elections, but Palm Beach County's over- voting was unprecedented and statistically certain. I mean, there are inner city black precincts in Palm Beach County where the over-vote was 20 percent; 20 percent of the people voted for Pat Buchanan and Al Gore. In the other elections -- in the other statewide election, there were zero over-votes or one or two. I mean, the statistics -- again, for several days, the Republican Party, even at the top levels, of the two spokespeople for the Bush campaign and the head of the Bush campaign have been spinning, hey, the exact same number of over-votes occurred in 1996. It was turned out that that was totally inaccurate. The anomalies in Palm Beach County are real. You can say as many times as you want that people in Palm Beach County disproportionally support Pat Buchanan, but the truth is you and I both know that there are Century Villages which are predominantly Jewish retirees that live in Palm Beach County in Century Village a couple miles away in Broward County. And they voted, in Palm Beach County, 10,000 times more likely to support Pat Buchanan. Now if you don't think that's a statistical certainty, I don't know what is.</s>BATTISTA: I have to take a quick commercial...</s>FOLEY: All I can say -- come back to me, Bobbie, I want to finish this point.</s>BATTISTA: I'm sorry, I will, I'll come back as soon as we take this quick commercial break.</s>BATTISTA: We're back and I interrupted Congressman Foley. Go ahead.</s>FOLEY: Thank you, Bobbie. The only point I wanted to make and Peter said no one in Century Village would vote for Pat Buchanan. I represent Century Village in West Palm Beach and I went through the precincts. I had a reform party candidate running against me that espoused the same values as Mr. Buchanan. In six precincts in Century Village, Mr. Buchanan got 50 votes, Mr. McGuire, my opponent, got 48. So in those precincts and in others I was able to show a parallel between votes on the butterfly ballot for Mr. Buchanan and then two pages later on a single page ballot where they voted for the Reform Party candidate McGuire. Now I will grant you not many Jewish- Americans would vote for that man, but in these cases they absolutely did, and it's demonstrated by the vote for Mr. McGuire.</s>DEUTSCH: Mark, there Century Villages that are not in your district in Palm Beach County and didn't have that gentleman as an opponent that still voted at that percentage. And again, I didn't say no one in Century Village in Broward County voted for Pat Buchanan, but I did say, which is factually accurate, they voted 10,000 times more likely a couple miles away to vote for Pat Buchanan. Now, if you want to keep arguing what is patently absurd, you're welcome to keep doing it, but it is patently absurd.</s>FOLEY: Peter, the only thing I can say -- go ahead, Bobbie.</s>BATTISTA: I was just going to try to move this along a little bit. We have a question in the audience about standards, voting standards -- Matt.</s>MATT: I was going ask if either Congressman thinks it's time for the federal government to standardize the voting ballots for the presidential raise.</s>FOLEY: Oh, amen. Not only standardize them for the presidential race but for every race statewide. I think we've got to come up, and this is a lesson to be learned. This is a sad commentary on the electoral process. We're in the 21st century and we're using pin pricks in order to vote for president. Clearly, there's a problem. But let me suggest to you we can solve it, and we must solve it. Louisiana, who is not known for their electoral success in the past, uses an up-to-date computer that will cancel out a vote if you vote twice in the same race. So we definitely can do better than we're doing today.</s>DEUTSCH: And let me agree with Mark, and that's a hundred percent accurate. One thing I can guarantee is that we will never use this type of ballot again in Broward County, Florida and it really is an embarrassment for America. I mean, we have a voting system in many parts of the country which is inferior to many Third World and even Fourth World countries and unfortunately it took a crisis like this for us to really understand it.</s>BATTISTA: And a question or comment from Michael.</s>MICHAEL: Yes. How is the American republic supposed to respond when we talk about standards, but there seems to be absolutely none. No one can agree on anything?</s>FOLEY: Well, again that's the concern today and why we're concerned. We are concerned about a hand count because there are no standards. Broward has a different one than Palm Beach. We have to set in law I believe from this experience a set of mandates so everybody is operating under the same script and the same direction because this is chaos. This is Bedlam and it's sad.</s>DEUTSCH: It's not chaos and it's not Bedlam. You know, watch on C-Span or watch on the nightly news what's going on in Broward County. I'm sure Palm Beach is getting their act together as well. It's a very orderly process that's going on and it is not subjective. Again, Mark, you can say it's subjective. Governor Bush can say it's subjective. Jim Baker, I think -- I welcome the American people to watch on television and look at what people are actually doing. Again, the reasons we have manual ballots is because they're more accurate. The machine can't determine a partially detached chad. So you have people, the only way to determine that is a visual inspection. It is not rocket science. It's not brain surgery. They're not having Constitutional debates after each look.</s>BATTISTA: I've got to let that -- I'm sorry. I've got let that be the last word because we are running out of time. Congressman Foley, Congressman Deutsch, thank you very much. It was an interesting afternoon version of "</s>CROSSFIRE." FOLEY: It sure is.</s>DEUTSCH: Thanks, Bobbie.</s>BATTISTA: Thanks very much. We'll be back right after this break.</s>BATTISTA: And we are out of time here. With so much happening between now and tomorrow we know you don't want to wait until Monday to talk about it so TALKBACK LIVE will have a special Saturday edition tomorrow beginning at 3 p.m., Eastern. And by the way, Vice President Gore is expected to make a statement shortly. We will bring that to you live when it happens and we'll see you here tomorrow.