Washington Post: Russian President Putin and Hungary's Prime Minister Helped Sour President Trump on Ukraine
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Good evening. Chris Cuomo is off tonight. Topping the Special Edition of 360, we have breaking news on the influence that Vladimir Putin may have had on President Trump when it comes to Ukraine. There is new reporting tonight, in the Washington Post, on conversations with Putin, as well as Hungarian Prime Minister, Viktor Orban, and the President. In them, according to the Washington Post, the two foreign leaders sought to reinforce the President's notion of Ukraine as a dysfunctional, corrupt state, a country, as you know, that Russia has invaded. This was happening, as his TV lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, was pushing conspiracy theories about Ukraine, to the President, and with hundreds of millions of dollars in American military aid on the line. I spoke about this and more tonight, with Democratic Congressman and House Intelligence Committee Member, Jim Himes. Congressman, what do you make the Washington Post reporting, the idea that Vladimir Putin might have helped color President Trump's view of Ukraine? I mean it does seem like yet another example of something that at this point is shocking but, I guess, not surprising.</s>REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): Yes. I - I read that story. And - and - and - and I guess I'm not surprised. I - I didn't happen to be, in that particular moment, of the testimony. But I'm not - I'm not at all surprised if that is true. Look, obviously, Vladimir Putin has every interest in causing our President to believe that Ukraine, apparently all the things that the President believes that it's a corrupt country, that it's beyond repair, if Putin can have the President thinking, and of course the story also referred to President Orban of Hungary, who has his own reasons. But if President Putin can get our President thinking in those terms, it can drive a wedge, and ultimately allow Putin to succeed, in his desire to, you know, ultimately control half of that country, retain Crimea, and - and do whatever he wants in this - in - in - in Ukraine.</s>COOPER: At least part of what the Post is reporting comes from what State Department official George Kent apparently told the Congressional investigators last week. I know you said you weren't in there for the - for - for that part of it. You're on the Intelligence Committee. Can you say - I don't know if you heard anything that Kent said. Did you find him to be a credible witness?</s>HIMES: I did. I did. In fact of all the - the witnesses that we have interviewed, Kent was remarkable. Kent is one of those people with - with near photographic recall, who when you ask him a question, he can tell you dates, times, and locations, so truly a remarkable guy. I mean, again, we've had this experience on a number of occasions with different witnesses. When you have an opportunity to spend a lot of time with our professional diplomats, you get a feel for what just incredibly high-caliber people they are.</s>COOPER: The Post also cites a former White House official who described the struggle to contest the influence of Putin, and Giuliani, and the Kremlin-allied Prime Minister of Hungary, in these terms that, quote, "Over time you just see a wearing down of the defenses," and essentially saying, according to the Post that a lot of the people, Mattis and Kelly, who had been able to kind of limit the damage that Putin could do with this President, without them being around, the - the - the President is more susceptible to Putin or to the - to Orban from Hungary, who the President met with, without anyone else present?</s>HIMES: Yes, or, by the way, certainly Giuliani. I mean my guess is that the President talks to Rudy Giuliani a great deal, more often than he talks to Vladimir Putin or - or Prime Minister Orban. Now, you know, the questions you ask obviously make it that much more important that we have a better sense than we do for the topic, because conversation when our President talked to Putin. But I almost worry more about Rudy Giuliani because, as we know, and you - you only need to look at Rudy Giuliani's Twitter feed to know that he trades in these conspiracy theories about the DNC server being located in Ukraine, about the attack on our elections, not being what every single Member of our Intelligence Community believes an attack by Russia, but being an attack by Ukraine. You know, Rudy Giuliani whispers those things in the President's ears that resonate that are about his self-interest. Professional diplomats, the Secretary of State, others, you know, foreign policy is really, really hard. Victories and foreign policy are measured in inches. So, when Rudy Giuliani calls up the President, as I'm sure he does and, you know, spews crazy conspiracy theories about - about the President's enemies, no question in my mind who the President listens to more acutely.</s>COOPER: The - the Washington Post does make a point of saying that, according to the sources, neither Putin nor the Hungarian Prime Minister sought to use the Biden family, or the 2016 election conspiracy theories, to turn the President against Ukraine. But the newspaper also says that the whole thing just basically reinforced what President Trump already thought, and made it all the more difficult for others to convince him, to support the Ukrainian government, despite the fact that they were under attack from Russia.</s>HIMES: Yes. And I mean this is one of the really sort of ugly themes in this Presidency with respect to our foreign policy. Of course, Putin, who's a very savvy individual with a background in intelligence, a background in manipulating people, and getting people to do things that they don't necessarily start out wanting to do, of course, he's going to know how to manipulate our President. We just saw an example of the Turkish President, Erdogan, manipulating our President into a practically impossible position, where Republicans are criticizing him. You know, we've - we've seen a North Korean Dictator, hardly a sophisticated individual. But all of a sudden, rather than being, you know, subject to sanctions, and - and - and - and - and - and difficult initiatives by the United States, the President is in love, by his own statements, with the Dictator of North Korea. So, I mean, again, this is just it's - it's not hard how to figure out to use flattery, to use conspiracy theories, to be on his team, in such a way that you pretty quickly get Donald Trump on your side, and I think world leaders recognize that.</s>COOPER: Yes. Congressman Himes of the Intelligence Committee, appreciate it, thank you.</s>HIMES: Thank you, Anderson.</s>COOPER: Let's talk now about this with CNN Legal Analyst, Carrie Cordero. She's also a Senior Fellow at the Center for a New American Security. You agree, Carrie, with Congressman Himes that this sort of provides a roadmap for any world leader looking to influence the President and that he's highly influenceable, you know, he's finally - highly susceptible to influence?</s>CARRIE CORDERO, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, SENIOR FELLOW, CENTER FOR A NEW AMERICAN SECURITY: I think it does, Anderson. What it does is it highlights how impressionable, how malleable the President is. It's an issue that speaks really to his intellect, to his character, and to whether or not he is so impressionable by these outside leaders. And it also speaks to how much he looks to authoritarians or other "Strongmen" type government leaders, and how he is unduly influenced by their views, in particular.</s>COOPER: Yes, I mean the idea that - I mean, you - you worked in national security. The idea that, you know, Mattis, and Kelly, and others, who used to be in the White House, were able to kind of keep the President from being influenced by a Putin or - or somebody like - like Orban, but that essentially those people are all gone, and now the President is taking advice from Putin, what kind of impact does that have on the security of this nation and also the kind of the entire, you know, national security establishment, who is powerless in the face of somebody who is willing to, you know, just talk one-on-one without anybody in the room, with Putin or Orban?</s>CORDERO: Well this is a central problem of the Trump Presidency. So see, Anderson, there were people who thought that they could go into, in the national security community, who thought that they could go into this Administration, and that they could influence the President that they could change his world outlook that cooler heads would prevail that he would listen to advisers, who are experienced in national security, and foreign policy. And three years in, what we're seeing is that he doesn't. Instead, he constantly chases out individuals who have experience, who have spent decades in national security, who actually know what they're talking about. He doesn't trust the U.S. Intelligence Committee - Community, excuse me. So, he has marginalized the advice of his Senior Intelligence officials, including the Director of National Intelligence, which now is in an acting capacity. So, he's pushed out the people with experience, and he's left with people who don't have experience. And so, what we've seen is now several different examples. We could go back to him appearing to believe Putin over the Intelligence Community on 2016 Russian interference. Kim Jong-un, when it comes to nuclear weapons in Korea, most recently, Erdogan, when it comes to the Kurds in Syria, where he believes these Strongmen over the advice of--</s>COOPER: Yes.</s>CORDERO: --national security officials.</s>COOPER: Yes. Carrie Cordero, appreciate it. Thank you. Coming up next--</s>CORDERO: Thanks.</s>COOPER: --two views of the President's abandonment of the Kurds in Northern Syria, Republican Congress - Congressman, Adam Kinzinger, and Leon Panetta, former Defense Secretary, CIA Director, and Clinton House - White House Chief of Staff. Also later, we'll talk impeachment with former Republican Presidential candidate, John Kasich.