ISIS Allowing Some Residents to Leave Raqqa
KINKADE: You're watching CNN and this is Connect the World with me, Lynda Kinkade, welcome back. Well, let's dig a little deeper into one of our top stories this hour. An American-backed alliance of Kurdish forces and Sunni Arabs has launched an offensive against ISIS in an area north of Raqqa, Syria. The ISIS flag has flown over Raqqa for nearly three years and the Sunni extremist group has imposed hardline Islamic law in a city once considered the most liberal in Syria. But the local Arabs don't have much love for the Kurds either. CNN reporters who have worked in the region say the people of Raqqa fear the Kurdish forces will take their land and expel them from their homes. And it's not only Raqqa where we see this kind of tension between local populations and those apparently there to liberate them. We've also seen it in places like Tikrit in Iraq. For more we're joined now by Fawaz Gerges from London who published this book "</s>ISIS: A History." Fawaz thank you very much for joining us.</s>FAWAZ GERGES, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Thank you.</s>KINKADE: The Kurdish-Arab alliance, or the Syrian Democratic Forces, is attempting to retake that area north of Raqqa, the so-called ISIS capital. Just give us a sense of the success that they've had in the past fighting against ISIS?</s>KINKADE: Well, you know, Lynda, the armed Kurdish groups are the most effective force, basically they have proven record in fighting ISIS and al Qaeda in Syria. They are the most fighters that are trusted by the Americans. Remember Kobani. For almost a years, ISIS tried to take over Kobani. They lost 2,000 fighters in Kobani. The Kurds, with the support of the Americans, made sure that Kobani did not fall. I really believe that the ability of the Kurds to hold Kobani and the failure of ISIS to take over Kobani represented a watershed in the fight against ISIS and the Americans are relying a great deal on the Kurdish forces. You have about 20,000 forces. Sadly as you said, there's not much trust between the Kurdish forces and the local population. A widespread sentiment exists that the Kurds have their own political project that they have extended at the expense of the local population, that basically they would like to establish a separatist autonomous region. So, the Americans really find themselves between a rock and hard place. The Kurdish forces are the most effective fighting forces against ISIS. On the other hand, the local population do not trust the Kurds. That's why the Americans have recruited and trained about 3,000 Arab fighters to join the Kurdish forces and that's what you said, it's the Syrian Democratic Forces. It's a force made up of 20,000 Kurdish fighters and about 3,000 Arab fighters that are trying to retake Raqqa, which is the nominal capital of ISIS.</s>KINKADE: Some say, for the people in Raqqa, choosing between ISIS or the Kurdish alliance is like choosing between the lesser of two evils. Is that your assessment?</s>GERGES: Very sadly so. And that's why if Raqqa falls either in five months or six months, for our own viewers the fight for a Raqqa city has not started. You're talking about 50 kilometers. I mean the forces, the Kurdish forces and the Syrian Democratic Forces. But if and when Raqqa falls, you're going to have an Arab force in charge to replace ISIS because if the Kurds remain in Raqqa, this would create major trouble for both the Kurdsan the local populations and that's why both the Kurds and the Americans are fully aware of that, even the Kurds say we do not want to replace ISIS in Raqqa because they realize they're not very much liked and trusted by the local population. So what you have now is a joint Arab and Kurdish force and regardless of what city or town falls you will have the Arab forces, replacing ISIS in the towns and villages and the cities that would be liberated in the next weeks or next few months, I hope, around Raqqa.</s>KINKADE: We've already heard reports from one activist group that ISIS is allowing some civilians in Raqqa to actually flee the city right now. Are you surprised by those claims?</s>GERGES: No, I'm not surprised, because Lynda, ISIS is starved financially and basically they're imposing a heavy financial burden on any family that leaves. You could leave if you pay -- if you have dollars, hard currency. ISIS would like the hard currency. Another point I want to make today is that ISIS will fight to the last man in Raqqa. This is an existential fight for ISIS. And again, if history serves as a guide, ISIS will use the local population -- you have more than 100,000, 200,000 civilians in Raqqa, so they have basically 200, 300,000 captive audiences in Raqqa.</s>KINKADE: And for those that say the Kurds will use this war to claim or take more territory for themselves, what do you say to them? What do you say to those fears?</s>GERGES: Well, you know, first of all, we know that the Kurds would like to have an autonomous region. We know that the Kurds are ambitious. We know that the Kurds believe this is their moment in the sun. So the Kurds have made their objective very clear. They would like to have an autonomous region. I don't think that the Kurds are trying to expand to Raqqa. In fact, in their own defense, the Kurds have made it very clear to the Americans that they do not actually want to go to Raqqa, it was the American military and security forces that have convinced the Kurds to go all the way to Raqqa. Just a few days ago, Lynda, the highest basically military officer in the U.S. army went to the Kurdish areas and my take on it, he convinced the Kurds to play a major role in the liberation of Raqqa, because again, they are the most effective fighting force. They are fierce fighters. They are trained, they are tried, and the Americans trust them and that's why they have joined the 3,000 Arab fighters hopefully to go all the way to al-Raqqa in the next few months. This is a long, costly and complex battle. It has just started.</s>KINKADE: It certainly is long and complex, but Fawaz Gerges, great to have your analysis for us. Thank you.</s>GERGES: Thank you.</s>KINKADE: Well, for the second day police in Greece are busing thousands of migrants out of a camp near the Macedonian border. The process appears to be going smoothly so far but there are fears tensions could boil over at any moment. The migrants are being relocated to shelters. Police hope to have the camp cleared out by the end of this week. Oour senior international correspondent Atika Shubert joins me now from the site of that camp in northern Greece. Atika, what can you tell us about the welfare of these people, the men, women and children? What do you know about their state of health and where exactly are they being moved to?</s>ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, so far it's been an orderly process. Press are not allowed into the actual camp. We're just a few kilometers outside, but I have actually been speaking to UNHCR officials who are there, who are monitoring. They say it's been orderly so far. They have seen thousands of people being moved out. There hasn't been too much resistance. They've been moved mostly to smaller camps that are in the area. These are more stable camps. They're more structured and it means that people can get the help they need and can begin the official asylum application process. The problem is that not everybody, of course, wants to do that. And so what we're finding is just like the people behind me, they're sort of looking for ways to camp out here because they're not sure they want to go to those structured camps yet. Take a listen to what one man told us about why he chose not to join the other camps.</s>AHMED KHALID, MIGRANT: We come here. We don't want to go to another camp, because another camp, just to stay in another camp and eat and sleep just for my future is very bad. We want future, a good future and good life. That's all people want here, they want this. You know that. But another camp, maybe one year, maybe two years, we don't know.</s>SHUBERT: That was Ahmed Khalid. He's from Aleppo. He is a math student there. And what he -- as he has told us, is that he fears that he's going to end up in a camp for one or two years instead of just a few months. And so what some people have decided to do is opt for an illegal route in, paying a people smuggler to bring them across the border. This, of course, is not what many EU states and Greece wants. If they get caught, they're often turned back and told to return to Greece. So the hope is that the relocation process will go smoothly and quickly enough that refugees will find it's in their favor to go to a camp, apply for asylum and be resettled somewhere in Europe. But it's still very much a tentative work and process, Lynda.</s>KINKADE: It seems quite surprising that the Greek authorities are allowing people who choose to stay to stay and set up camps, illegal camps behind you. Do you suspect by the end of the week that authorities might try to move those people?</s>SHUBERT: I think they've learned from previous attempts to relocate people forcefully that that simply does not work. They do not want to bring out tear gas and riot police. We've seen that happen at the border before. So, they're giving people time to consider their options, to say, you know, OK, maybe you don't want to move right now, but let's see if there's a better alternative at the camps nearby. And clearly many people, especially those with families, are taking that option. So, I think it's a more gradual process. It's one they're trying to shift people towards, but don't want to use force if they can.</s>KINKADE: OK. Atika Shubert live for us on the Greek/Macedonian border, thank you very much. Well, live from the CNN center this is Connect the World. Coming up, California police are bracing for protests at a Donald Trump rally after this chaotic scene in New Mexico. The latest on the race for the White House just ahead. Also, with the Olympic Games coming up soon, the host city is struggling with a crime wave. We'll be live in Rio just ahead.