Testimony: EU Ambassador Said President Trump Cared About "Big Stuff Like the "Biden Investigation"; Key Witness Confirms Hearing Trump Call About Ukraine Probes; President Trump Denies Witness Tampering With Tweet Attack On Ousted Ambassador, Says He Has Right To Free Speech; Yovanovitch: President Trump's Attacks On Me "Very Intimidating"; Roger Stone Found Guilty Of Lies That Protected President Trump.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. Tonight, new impeachment testimony that puts President Trump directly hands on and moment to moment at the center of the scheme to squeeze Ukraine into dirtying up an American political rival. A firsthand account provides further evidence that President Trump didn't really care about corruption in general or Ukraine's wellbeing nor U.S. policy in the region. What he cared about, according to the new testimony, was investigating the Bidens. The testimony was from David Holmes, a staffer and experienced diplomat serving at the U.S. embassy in Kiev. In his opening statement, he describes a phone call the president's European Union Ambassador Gordon Sondland made in front of him to the president on the 26th of July. This is the day after the president called asking Ukraine's president to investigate the conspiracy theory about the 2016 election, one letting Russia off the hook and to investigate the Bidens. Sondland places the call in front of Holmes and others on an apparently unsecure personal cell phone at an outdoor table in a Kiev restaurant. The president, he says, was talking loudly enough to be overheard at times. And I'm quoting now from Holmes' testimony. Quote: I heard Ambassador Sondland greet the president explained he was calling for Kiev. I heard President Trump then clarify that the ambassador was in Ukraine. Ambassador Sondland replied, yes, he was in Ukraine and went on to state that President Zelensky loves your ass. And then heard President Trump ask, so, he's going to do the investigation? Ambassador Sondland replied he's going to do it, adding that president Zelensky will do anything you ask him to. The call ends. Holmes continues. I asked ambassador Sondland if it was true that president did not give an S about Ukraine. Ambassador Sondland agreed the president did not give an S about Ukraine. I asked why not. And Ambassador Sondland stated that the president only cares about big stuff. I noted there was big stuff going on in Ukraine like a war with Russia and Ambassador Sondland replied he meant big stuff that benefits the president like the Biden investigation that Mr. Giuliani was pushing, end quote. Holmes' testimony came immediately after former Ukraine Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch spent hours today testifying before the Intelligence Committee.</s>MARIE YOVANOVITCH, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: If our chief representative is kneecapped, it limits our effectiveness to safeguard the vital national security interest of the United States. Our Ukraine policy has been thrown into disarray and shady interests, the world over have learned how little it takes to remove an American ambassador who does not give them what they want.</s>COOPER: She described efforts by Rudy Giuliani and others, including the president to smear her which the president did actually again today tweeting about her as she was testifying. She called it intimidating. Democrats called it witness intimidation. And as that was unfolding, a federal jury convicted Trump associate and dirty trickster Roger Stone of seven counts including lying to the intelligence community and witness intimidation. Gordon Sondland goes before the committee next week. He's already testified once behind closed doors and then to correct his testimony after his memory returned to him after other witnesses contradicted evidence he had already given under oath. Quite a day and it's been quite a week. CNN's Phil Mattingly starts us off tonight. So, explain what else Holmes had to say in his testimony today.</s>PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson. It's worth noting. David Holmes, political counsel at the U.S. embassy in Ukraine. And this is a detailed 10-page statement we obtained that goes through a number of things. Not just the explosive meeting William Taylor first testified about on Wednesday, but also details about his concerns and the concerns of others in his office about the withholding of U.S. security aid, including the possibility that John Bolton thought a meeting with Trump and making President Trump happy was the only way it could be released. But he also goes into detail about some of the issues they were facing that you heard a lot about today from Marie Yovanovitch, and that is specifically related to Rudy Giuliani, the president's personal attorney. At one point in his testimony, he says, quote, someone wondered aloud why Mr. Giuliani was so active in the media with respect to Ukraine. My recollection is that Ambassador Sondland stated, damn it, Rudy, every time Rudy gets involved, he goes and F's everything up. It's something you'll hear a lot of next week when Ambassador Gordon Sondland testifies but it also underscores in this very detailed and I would argue very damning testimony in this opening statement from David Holmes that the details here work against the president in many ways and certainly that's going to be the focal of the Democrats' investigation and the ongoing impeachment inquiry, Anderson.</s>COOPER: President Trump was asked about this conversation earlier in the week. Explain what he said.</s>MATTINGLY: Yes, he was asked during a press conference with the Turkish president whether or not he knew anything about the call and well -- take a listen.</s>DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know nothing about that. First time I've heard it. The one thing I've seen that Sondland said was that he did speak to me for a brief moment and I said no quid pro quo under any circumstances and that's true. The other never heard this. In any event, it's more secondhand information but I never heard it.</s>REPORTER: Do you recall having a conversation with Sondland --</s>TRUMP: I don't recall. No, not at all. Not even a little bit. The only thing, and I guess Sondland stayed with his testimony that there was no quid pro quo, pure and simple.</s>MATTINGLY: Now, Anderson, the president referencing two different calls there. A call he made or had with Ambassador Gordon Sondland where Sondland testified there was no quid pro quo and the July 26 phone call which David Holmes is testifying about as we speak right now just below me where he talks about this conversation. Here's where this runs into issues for the president. Not only was David Holmes in attendance when this call took place and he testifies in detail he's a very clear recollection of hearing what the president had to say. He also testifies there was two other individuals besides the U.S. ambassador to the E.U., Gordon Sondland, at that table who also heard the call. Here's where else this becomes problematic. Gordon Sondland testifies next week, on Wednesday, alone in front of the House Intelligence Committee. As you noted, he had to amend his testimony once. There's question from members from both parties as to whether he was truthful or any other issues that were left out. He certainly did not mention the call. You can believe he will be asked about the call and whether or not the president's recollections of things record track with his, it's certainly be something to watch, Anderson.</s>COOPER: Yes. We'll see if his memory returned on this one, too. Phil Mattingly, thanks very much. I want to bring in the legal and political team. John Dean is with us. Eli Honig, Dana Bash, Gloria Borger, David Gergen, Kirsten Powers, Rick Santorum, also joining us is Uzra Zeya. So, Gloria, I mean, we thought that Yovanovitch was going to be the lead story and then David Holmes testimony came out. What do you make of at the end of this day?</s>GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLTIICAL ANALYST: I think it's very important. I think what David Holmes' testimony does is confirm what the president did the day before on his phone conversation with the president of Ukraine was a clear ask, saying you've got to do this for us after the, you know, I'd like you to do a favor though. He follows up with the phone conversation and says, so he's going to do the investigation? The investigation is not just about corruption. It's very clear the investigation is about the Bidens and when asked about it at lunch, Sondland offers it very clearly. The president doesn't really care about Ukraine. What he cares about is investigating the Bidens. So, it's more of the same. It corroborates what people knew but emphasizes it because the president himself is asking it, OK, what about the investigation?</s>DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: And the fact that it is the very next day.</s>BORGER: Exactly.</s>BASH: And we've been so focused on this phone call, the "do me a favor though" phone call, the fact the next day, one of the people that the president's referring to was already in a meeting where they, according to this testimony, didn't let any staff in where Sondland met with the Ukrainian president and then wanted to report back right afterwards to the president. I mean, it's really remarkable how much of a line there is.</s>COOPER: And, by the way, Sondland is the ambassador to the European Union, so I'm not sure what he's doing to the restaurant in Kiev.</s>BASH: A million dollars to the --</s>COOPER: Well, no, I know that, but like --</s>COOPER: It's not like there's nothing going on in the European Union that he could focus on.</s>BASH: Yes. No, but that's key. We don't know the genesis of Sondland being a part of this, but we'll learn it next week along with a lot of other very important questions about from his perspective, not just what went on with the call but what was his actual role in trying to execute what appears to be the president's desire to --</s>COOPER: John Dean, it's also extraordinary to here Sondland, I mean, again, I don't know if this is Sondland's characterization of the president's opinion that he only cares about the big stuff -- the big stuff not being a war that Ukraine is waging against Russia but in fact, the big stuff is the Bidens and, you know --</s>JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: The big stuff now is he's big stuff. He's really going to be an important witness. I really have, cannot believe he's not spending this weekend with his attorneys. He's got the potential of perjury. We don't know if that happened but it certainly a potential. High probability, Anderson, he'll go in and plead the Fifth and if they don't give him immunity, he won't testify. He might get immunity and that's his get out of jail free card.</s>COOPER: I mean, if you are looking to throw somebody under the bus, Gordon Sondland would probably be a prime candidate to be next in line to be thrown under the bus.</s>DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think the president will wait very patiently to see what he says and then decide to throw him under bus. This has to be the worst day of the presidency so far for Donald Trump.</s>COOPER: You think so?</s>GERGEN: This is the worst day. I thought after Yovanovitch testified today, in a very compelling way, that itself was a dramatic story, and injected a lot of drama, into what these proceedings, and, you know, I think it's so graphic what she says, gripping. A writer in "The New York Times" said it reminded him of the McCarthy hearings, when Joseph Welch, the lawyer, looked at Roy Cohn and said, have you no decency, sir. And that's what you thought about Donald Trump tweeting and attacking that woman while she was on -- while she was testifying and intimidating her and threatening her the way he has been. But on top of this, the blockbuster news about Holmes, it's not just that we learned from somebody with direct knowledge that the president was directing things but doing this the most graphic way. The words here, the language, I think --</s>COOPER: Gordon Sondland said he doesn't give a shit about Ukraine and, you know, Zelensky, you know, loves his ass. I mean --</s>GERGEN: It rips the cover off when you look into this snake pit that we've been describing.</s>BORGER: Forget about the Roger Stone conviction.</s>COOPER: We'll get to that. There's a lot to get to. Uzra, you served in the Foreign Services. You know Mr. Holmes. What is he like? I mean, who is he?</s>UZRA ZEYA, FORMER SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: I had the pleasure to work with David Holmes over at eight years, my Foreign Service career. We served together in India. We worked together in the State Department. In my opinion, he embodies the highest values of public service -- honor, integrity, and non-partisanship. Absolutely.</s>COOPER: Does what happened today -- I mean, as somebody who serves in the service, you heard the Ambassador Yovanovitch says that the State Department is being hollowed out from the inside. Do you see that?</s>ZEYA: I mean, I've certainly witnessed that myself. You know, we've seen an exodus of some of the most experienced and talented diplomats across the board. People like Linda Thomas Greenfield, Anne Patterson, Joe Yoon (ph), the list goes on and on. Nearly every region of the world, and Masha Yovanovitch, who I think it's very important to point out, is still a foreign service officer and does exemplify that incredible courage and commitment and --</s>COOPER: Yes, a point the Republicans were making, she's still employed, the same amount of money. Her career is effectively over in terms of getting a foreign posting as an ambassador.</s>ZEYA: Well, I think she described the manner in which she was removed was something that was just an affront to 33 years of incredibly dedicated, selfless service.</s>COOPER: Senator Santorum, what do you make of the testimony and let's start I guess with Holmes.</s>RICK SANTORUM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Again, I feel like I'm in an echo chamber here. Every time I come on here, it's the worst day the president had. This is horrific. I mean, this is the end of this presidency, and then that passes and then another thing comes along. This is the worst thing and this is the end of the presidency. The reality is, David, what Holmes said is absolutely consistent with what every Republican believes. Number one, the president cares most about himself. Every Republican and American has already accepted the fact that no matter what, the president cares about himself than everything else. No news flash here. So, when it comes to Ukraine, the fact an issue more personal to him is the thing he cares about the most, that's a shock to anybody? Raise your hand, seriously, raise your hand. Shocking. It's not.</s>COOPER: But your argument, wait a minute, your argument all along is that the president really cared about corruption in Ukraine?</s>SANTORUM: He does. But the thing he cares --</s>COOPER: Well, he doesn't give a shit about Ukraine, why --</s>SANTORUM: That's an opinion. Whoa, whoa, that's an opinion -- that's not, he didn't overhear him saying that.</s>COOPER: OK.</s>SANTORUM: That's Sondland saying that's what he thinks.</s>COOPER: That is a donor to the president --</s>SANTORUM: And he's with a bunch of guys who he knows, probably not a big fan of the president, and what he's doing. And so, that's a whole different thing. The reality is that what he overheard was the president asking a question that he admits. In fact, went in the camera and said, yes, I care about that, yes, I want this to be investigated. Here's the question. Is what he's asking a criminal offense? Is what he's asking licit? It is perfectly licit for a president to ask for an investigation about this. There's nothing illegal about what he's asking.</s>COOPER: Here's why I don't understand, though. You were saying the president doesn't care about Ukraine, he cares about himself.</s>SANTORUM: I said he cares about himself more than everything else. I didn't say he doesn't care about other things.</s>COOPER: Fine. So number one, he cares about himself.</s>SANTORUM: Yes, that's not a surprise.</s>COOPER: So, but he doesn't -- if you're also claiming he cares about corruption in Ukraine, why does he care about corruption in Ukraine? Clearly, if he cares about himself, the only thing Ukraine is on his radar for are the Bidens and is --</s>SANTORUM: And again, Gloria and I had a conversation after our meeting yesterday, the other day. And Gloria said to me, you give the president every benefit of the doubt. And my response is, I may, but you give him no benefit of the doubt. The reality is --</s>COOPER: You just said he cares about himself more than anything else.</s>SANTORUM: He does. He cares about himself -- well, that's true.</s>COOPER: It's great quality in the president of the United States.</s>SANTORUM: It's not a great quality and I think Republicans find that to be a very difficult --</s>COOPER: I applaud you for --</s>SANTORUM: But here's the reality. To say the president doesn't care about the Ukraine/Russia war is ridiculous. That he doesn't care about providing aid. He's the only president recently that has provided.</s>COOPPER: Kirsten, do you think the president cares about the war because he's holding up aid for the way that this investigation --</s>KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: If he cares about it, he cares about it less than the priority that he gave.</s>SANTORUN: I'm not -- I'm not denying that.</s>POWERS: Into investigating, nothing that happened basically with Joe Biden that he thinks that happened. Well, it's a fact, actually. But I think -- I think the idea, it's interesting to hear you say that nobody should be shocked that the president only cares about himself above all else. I think we should remain shocked about that kind of behavior, especially in light of what we've witnessed the last couple of days, people completely committed to serving their country, and watching what he has done to one of those women, you know, is really reprehensible and I just don't think it's OK for you to say that it's only OK for him to care about himself when his job is --</s>SANTORUM: I didn't say only.</s>POWERS: -- is literally to stand up for the United States. That is his number one job and the number one concern. He cares about himself more than anything else.</s>SANTORUM: No, I didn't say -- I said he cares most about himself. It doesn't mean he doesn't care about --</s>POWERS: This is semantics.</s>COOPER: It was interesting to watch Marie Yovanovitch being questioned today by a bunch of folks who, you know, are serving the country in Capitol Hill but Marie Yovanovitch has gone to numerous hardship postings. She served in Somalia, I mean, just a little bit of time there and that is a really tough posting and to have the president of the United States basically blame her for what has happened in Somalia is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. I mean, Somalia fell apart in 1992 after the fall of the regime and the famine. The idea the president said, look at what happened in Somalia after Marie was there. I mean, what is that a -- I mean, this is our president?</s>POWERS: She's a person. You know, I mean, that's the thing -- he doesn't treat people like people. Like she's a person who dedicated her entire career to serving this country.</s>COOPER: Yes.</s>POWERS: And he --</s>SANTORUM: I repeat one more time -- I repeat one more time. I agree with 90 percent of what he does, 20 percent of what he says and this is one of the 80 percent that I don't agree with.</s>POWERS: Just the story of this woman's life, I mean, that's essentially --</s>SANTORUM: Look, this is -- this is why he's not at 60 percent popularity.</s>COOPER: We've got to take a quick break. Coming up next, how the president is reacting to testimony about the phone conversation that you heard him say he knows nothing about. More on Marie Yovanovitch's day before the House Intelligence Committee and one of the lawmakers who was there for it as we continue.