Does Condit Have a Political Future Following Levy Scandal?
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: The affairs, the lie, the silence. Is Congressman Gary Condit's political career in trouble?</s>MAYOR CARMEN SABATINO, MODESTO, CALIFORNIA: He was highly respected, and I think there's a diminishment of that respect right now.</s>REP. DAVID DREIER (R), CALIFORNIA: These developments have led to a lot of questions being raised by his constituents.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whatever he says, nobody really believes.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry for what he's done, but would I vote for him again? In a minute. He's a good congressman, he's a good representative.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The election is a year and three months from now. Let's find Chandra Levy and then figure out what we do from there.</s>BATTISTA: Can Condit recover in time to rescue his political future? Hey, everybody, welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. We will cover a couple of topics today, along with Congressman Condit's political career. We'll talk about the death of Vikings tackle Korey Stringer and why coaches think football practice in blistering weather is a good idea. But first, the search for Chandra Levy took an odd twist yesterday. There was a lot of excitement over an anonymous tip phoned in to the Web site Wetip.com. The tipster said Levy's body was buried on the Fort Lee military base outside Petersburg, Virginia. CNN national correspondent Bob Franken has been following the chase here, and he joins us, along with CNN consultant Mike Brooks. Mike was a detective on the D.C. police force and managed the department's FBI terrorism detail. Bob, as we said, there was a lot of excitement about this 24 hour ago. What a difference a day can make. What has happened here? Is this still a credible tip, or is it losing steam?</s>BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Quite, frankly, it is not a credible tip. The CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena has just been told by a top law enforcement official, who is directly knowledgeable about this case, that the tip was quote, "a hoax," that a statement that came out earlier from the FBI said that the details of it were not consistent with any site at or near Fort Lee, Virginia. And of course the tip was that Chandra Levy's body had been buried around Fort Lee, Virginia -- about two hours from Washington driving -- buried in a parking lot site that was under construction. It interested police a little bit, simply because there had been construction on a parking lot site in recent times, they thought. So they were checking it out. And I should also point out that they check out every particular lead. This is one that caught the attention of the media. Now, we have a top, knowledgeable source saying that this is a hoax, the source being a law enforcement official with direct knowledge of the investigation.</s>BATTISTA: Well, Mike, that turned out to be fairly easy then for the FBI to figure it out, because earlier in the day we were all trying to speculate as to how the FBI would figure out whether or not this tip was valid or not, especially since it was anonymous.</s>MIKE BROOKS, CNN CONSULTANT: Exactly. They took the information inside that was contained in the phone call and transcribed onto a three-page, single-spaced letter did contain anything that they thought was credible. There were -- I was hearing from sources last night that they did not hold much credence in the information and able to confirm it today that it was, in fact, a hoax.</s>BATTISTA: So, can that guy be prosecuted for obstructing justice or anything like that?</s>BROOKS: There is a technicality, since he did not technically make a police report, it will have to be looked into to see if he could be prosecuted for filing a false police report. I think that there is some meat there that they possibly could take a look at prosecuting him. And secondly, he called it in. He or she called in the tip to Wetip.com. So if it's an 800 number, they can go back and maybe take a look at that, but I'm sure law enforcement officials are going to be looking into that to see if they can find out what the source of that hoax was.</s>BATTISTA: Wetip.com has, you know, said that they have never lost a tipster. I mean, they never identified one through a subpoena or anything else. So, how would -- how would the FBI go about trying to identify him? Would they just go straight to phone records, could they do that?</s>BROOKS: Well, if it was an 800 number, you can go back and take a look at whether it was 800, 888, 877, a toll-free number, they can go back and take a look at that. Whether they are going to pursue that is not known, but it's easy to go back and take a look at these toll-free numbers and find out where they originated from, easier more so than someone who was just calling in from a -- calling from a regular 404 or 202 or 703 type area code.</s>BATTISTA: Bob, why do you suppose the police latched onto this tip over the hundreds of others that they get?</s>FRANKEN: Well, the impression I get is, first of all, that they have been "latching on," quote/unquote, to just about every tip. Remember now, it's more than three months since the disappearance of Chandra Levy, and they really have no clue as to where she is, so they are really grasping at straws, that's number one. They check out every tip. This particular one had a bit of credence, more than some of the others they've gotten, simply because it included some details that could have been accurate. What they decided to do to is to check out more of the details to see if it was feasible to actually begin a search. As the day wore on, the night wore on, the details proved that it really was not feasible, that it was just something that was made up. And now, as I said, we are told that this is a hoax.</s>BATTISTA: Well, how did it become public over the hundreds of others that they get?</s>FRANKEN: Well, it sort of catches catch can. We were able to find out about this one and to find out that it was not entirely without some details, so we in the media, of course, who have been following this very closely, thought this is one that we should follow. The one thing that it does give us is some insight into how closely the police are following everything, trying almost desperately to come up with any sort of lead that might pan out. I think that it's fair to say -- and I really defer to Mike on this -- it's fair to say that the police operate on the premise that a lot of these may look like they're really not very solid leads, in the hope that one of these that looks like it's not a solid lead surprises them and turns into something.</s>BATTISTA: Yeah, I understand following them all, although isn't it true that the majority of these tips do not pan out?</s>FRANKEN: Most of them don't.</s>BROOKS: Absolutely, but you have to follow up on it, just as Bob was saying. And this particular tip, the person who called it in said that they had been hired to dispose of Chandra Levy's body. So, when you have someone saying that in a tip, it's something that the law enforcement is going to take seriously and take a look into. But then again, you look at where they said the body was, at a military base. What place, you know, you have 20 people 24 hours a day -- if you're going to dump a body on a military base, that would not be the best place to do it, especially with security cameras, military police 24 hours day on the base. It wouldn't be that good of a place.</s>BATTISTA: Once this tip became public, Mike, why did the police confirmed that they were following this tip with some credibility? I mean, how does that help their investigation? Why would they make that public?</s>BROOKS: I think that what they were trying to do is try to kind of calm everyone down and say, remember, this is just a tip. The media kind of took off with it. Everyone took off with it, because it was the first lead that they had really had in quite some time, and everyone was doing some -- was reporting on it and wanted to find out was there any credibility to this themselves. So, I think metropolitan police were the first ones to put out a press release, to kind of say, OK, let's step back, let's take a look at this, let's see if there is any credibility. Again, it was an unsubstantiated rumor. Then, a little bit later on that evening, the Richmond office of the FBI said that until they received further information it was credible, that they were not going to conduct a search of the Fort Lee area.</s>BATTISTA: Well, Bob -- yeah.</s>FRANKEN: Bobbie, I think I have to in fairness say the Washington, D.C. police, metropolitan police, when they put out their news release, when they were speaking with me on background, they made it clear that this was just nothing more than a lead, an unconfirmed lead. They went to great lengths to say, look, this is just another one of those -- feel free to check it out with us, but there is nothing more than this unconfirmed lead that they decided to check out. It had that one nugget of possible credence, and that was the fact that there had been some parking lot construction at Fort Lee. It turns out it was not even within the period that was specified in the letter.</s>BATTISTA: Well, speaking of lead, of course we've heard the D.C. police say all along that the congressman is not a suspect. Now, they are saying also that he is not the central focus of this investigation. So, is anyone or anything the central focus now? Has there been any other leads made public?</s>FRANKEN: Well, the police have said all along that they did not consider Congressman Gary Condit the central focus of their investigation, although given the knowledge, the particular knowledge he had of Chandra Levy, that he was somebody that was of great interest to help flesh out where she might be. The police have always said it's not us -- meaning the police -- who have made him the central focus. The media have made him the central focus, and of course that certainly is a fact.</s>BATTISTA: What about the hardware salesman? Is there anything on that front? The gentleman who says he made a key for Chandra Levy, possibly a day after she was last thought to be seen?</s>FRANKEN: Well, both Mike and I have checked our sources, and we both conclude that what they're politely saying is that this guy did not really have any evidence that holds up.</s>BROOKS: And if I think that she was going to get keys made, there is a hardware store within two blocks on her house that she would pass by on a regular basis, and she would kind of be going out of her way to go to that one. I think Bob would agree with me on that.</s>FRANKEN: It was across the street from the health club where she worked out. But the actual interrogation of this man by investigators ended up with them coming out and saying, well, when he talked to us, he said, you know, I can't really be sure that it was before or after April 30, I can't really be sure how many keys she had made. The story fell down a little bit.</s>BATTISTA: And where does the investigation go from here? Does anybody know?</s>FRANKEN: That's up to you. Go ahead, Mr. Investigator.</s>BATTISTA: Not that we are in the homicide business, right.</s>BROOKS: No, but there are still -- there is leads, and you know, they have talked about before about this being a cold case, it's nowhere near a cold case yet, and they still have got leads. They are still running down leads. They're doing some re-interviews, and they're far from being done with this case.</s>BATTISTA: All right. Bob Franken and Mike Brooks, thank you so much for keeping us up to date. Appreciate it. We will take a break. Does Congressman Gary Condit have a future in politics? A statement issued by California Senator Dianne Feinstein just hours ago might leave you wondering about that. I'll read that to you in just a few moments. In the meantime, take the TALKBACK LIVE ONLINE VIEWER VOTE AT CNN.com/TALKBACK, AOL keyword: CNN. While there, check out my notes and send us an e-mail. We'll be right back.</s>BATTISTA: We're back. And speaking of wetip.com, CEO Bill Brownell is on the phone with us. Mr. Brownell, was this news to you that this tip turned out to be a hoax, or were you given advance word on that?</s>BILL BROWNELL, CEO, WETIP.COM: I haven't heard that it was a hoax. I heard that the FBI has not been able to identify a location as it was described in the anonymous crime report. It may be a tip. It may be that they just haven't located it yet. However, it could very well be a tip. This is a very high-profile case, and that's always a possibility.</s>BATTISTA: So you still feel that there's enough credible information in that tip for it to be still alive? Do you think?</s>BROWNELL: Well, I certainly wouldn't argue with the FBI. If they say it's a dead case, why it certainly is. All we do is take an anonymous tip with our 24-hour telephone crime reporting line. We've been taking tips for the past 30 years, and there have been over a thousand murder suspects. There have been arrests due to our tips.</s>BATTISTA: And we should reiterate, too, that you guys at wetip.com do not evaluate the information that you get -- correct? You just pass it on.</s>BROWNELL: Absolutely -- even material that might even be a little embarrassing because it looks bad. It's not up to us to prejudge a tip for law enforcement, because what we might think is trash, they may find treasure. So we try to provide a valuable public service, allowing people to call us on our 800-78-CRIME line and make a report in Spanish or English 24 hours a day, or they can access our resources through the new program we have...</s>BATTISTA: What if it turns out that the FBI -- and I am not saying this is going to happen -- might have the option to prosecute this guy for sending in a hoax tip to you. How does that affect the anonymity of your business if they were to do that?</s>BROWNELL: Like I say, we've been taking anonymous crime reports. We've received the thumbs-up from law enforcement all over the United States for 30 years. They know that there is always the odd that not every tip is going to be valid, and it's up to every law enforcement agency to read the disclaimer at the bottom of the tip, that the information is anonymous. Anything that is anonymous is suspected to being false. A good citizen will always call law enforcement, but many people are too fearful of reprisal to call. And that's why our program was set up 30 years ago, so that those people that are fearful of drug pushers, violent gang members, or other people, like the person who killed Chandra Levy, would not have reprisal against them. So we augment law enforcement investigations; we don't start them.</s>BATTISTA: Understood. Bill Brownell wetip.com, thank you very much for joining us. In our studios -- Victoria, we know you are an attorney -- that's for sure -- and a former federal prosecutor -- we'll let it go at that. Also with us is prominent Washington trial attorney Jack Jacobovitz. Good to see both of you. This tipster thing -- I am just curious to ask you, Victoria -- this is such a high-profile case -- do you think it's possible that the FBI might pursue some sort of prosecution of this guy? This was quite an elaborate hoax.</s>VICTORIA TOENSING, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I don't know how elaborate it is, Bobbie, but it probably would not be good policy, because then if somebody gets a piece of information and wants to turn it over through this kind of a system, he or she might be fearful that if it's not accurate, somebody's going to come back and prosecute him. Even though there was something wrong done here, and even if it was even intentional, perhaps on the basis of weighing all the factors, as a matter of public policy, there should not be any kind of indictment.</s>BATTISTA: I have to say that part of the reason this became such an elaborate story and somewhat of a fiasco, to some degree, people might say, is because of the media involvement -- right, Jeff? Once the media got ahold of it, it became the biggest lead in the case since day one.</s>JACK JACOBOVITZ, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Absolutely, and the media is searching around for the leads. I disagree with Victoria; I think if they find the person who sent out in the tip was lying intentionally -- a potential obstruction of the D.C. government's investigation -- then you have a potential wire fraud, because he used the phone. However, it's unclear at this point -- and there are so many tips pouring in -- next thing we know, we'll be looking under the end zone in Giants Stadium.</s>TOENSING: How will people give anonymous tips anymore and be secured that they are not going to be tracked down if they track down this one. That is my concern. I don't want to end people feeling comfortable about giving anonymous tips.</s>JACOBOVITZ: I don't think it's going to end the process; however, you do have to have some verifiability in the tips. Obviously, the anonymous process will go on. It would be unlikely, I think, for the police to be able to find out who, in fact, made this anonymous tip.</s>BATTISTA: Let's move on to the Congressman's political future. Dianne Feinstein just a few hours ago issued a statement saying, "I have been quoted as saying...that I cannot forgive. If I gave that impression, I apologize, because, of course, I can forgive...Condit's failure to come forward and to be fully candid, combined with the conduct involved, really does violate the public trust and affects his integrity and credibility as a legislator." Now, we know as a moderate Democrat, Ms. Feinstein does not make these sorts of statements lightly. Is the death now sounding here, Victoria, for his career?</s>TOENSING: Well, Dianne Feinstein is a very thoughtful and a very deliberate lawyer -- not lawyer, senator. Much respected by her comrades in the Senate. It, no, it's not going to be the Republicans that will bring Gary Condit down, and I don't even think it will be the voters in his home district. What it will be, is the Democrats. And California gets an additional seat for the next election. And because of that, there will be redistricting. It could be all of the districts -- congressional districts in California. Or it could just be a few. Whatever, the Democrats are in charge. And so, they will decide, I think, to get rid of Gary Condit's district.</s>BATTISTA: But stranger things have happened, as we know, Jeff. It's a long time between now and March, and March and November, and you know, the one thing the congressman has going for him is that he is very popular with his constituents; they overwhelming thought he was doing a good job, they're concerned about this, but I am guessing that they will not get rid of him easily, and they could do a lot of forgiving between now and next November.</s>JACOBOVITZ: And you have to look at the Barney Frank situation and the Bill Clinton situation and his popularity ratings. And I think the bottom line is this: if in fact there is an obstruction investigation against Gary Condit for lying to the police and it's a serious investigation, he's in significant trouble. If in fact he's linked to the murder at all, if Chandra Levy was murdered, he's finished, absolutely. If not, it looks like his fund- raising is still going on. Although, most of the funds raised prior to this whole investigation, he has a chance. But he is in trouble.</s>TOENSING: The Democrats are sure not going to let him resign, I can tell you that, Bobbie. Because they want to hold that seat until the next election, and if he resigns now, and there would be a new election, it's the probability that a Republican would get elected and the Democrats certainly don't want that to happen.</s>BATTISTA: Let me get a little bit of audience reaction here. Dale Ann?</s>DALE ANN: Hi. Even though I don't agree with the type of lifestyle that he keeps, I think it's not really going to affect his career because in that arena things like that happen. And I think the public seems to overlook that, even though it's something that they don't agree with. They seem to overlook and vote the way they want to vote.</s>TOENSING: That makes me very sad that people think that that is what happens in Congress or accept that, the behavior that goes in Congress. I think we should find it unacceptable.</s>JACOBOVITZ: But the American people are forgiving and you look at the Marion Barry situation and you look at Bill Clinton. Every time another piece of the scandal came out, his popularity rating rose.</s>BATTISTA: Let me go to Maddox here in the audience.</s>MADDOX: But even with all of those situations, there was never a person missing. There was never a person presumed to be dead. And so, if, when they find Chandra Levy's body, as you said earlier, it will create major problems for Condit. And he will be forced to resign. First of all, the man has lied repeatedly to the public. To his colleagues in the Congress. He said he didn't have an affair and then he admitted that he had an affair. So he's a liar. He's an adulterer. What else does it take?</s>TOENSING: I will tell you one other thing that the Democrats are in control of and should take action on, and that is: to get him off the House Intelligence Committee. He is a security risk. He lies, he hides evidence, all to conceal his conduct. That's a person who's blackmail-able. And he's a security risk and he should not be hearing our nation's secrets.</s>BATTISTA: I have a couple of e-mails here. Sherri in Wisconsin says "Condit would have had a future in politics, had he been honest and forthright from the start. And now he looks as if he was only concerned about himself." Mike in Virginia says Condit's career is over, even if he is elected again. His influence in Washington will be severely affected." We'll take a break and continue with the topic in just a few minutes, and then talk about who's to blame when a 27-year-old pro football player dies of heat stroke. We will try to find some answers. Stay with us.</s>BATTISTA: Victoria and Jeff, Congress is heading into a break. Presumably the congressman will be heading back to his district in California. What does he need to say to his constituents to try to salvage his career, if he can?</s>JACOBOVITZ: I think what he needs to do is sort of lay low. I believe he is coming out too much and talking to the police and having his attorney hold these press conferences and trying to deflect public criticism. He is in trouble. He's being looked at; and he needs to lay low. I think he will have to lay low with his constituents. Because whatever he says will be attacked in every direction.</s>TOENSING: As I understand it, he's got a three part scenario. The first part is to get together with his wife and two grown children and get his family a little bit back together; and secondly, is to talk to his constituents; and then third, is to do some national interview with some network that has not really covered this in depth. I guess that will not be CNN.</s>BATTISTA: I guess that rules us out.</s>TOENSING: I think -- if he is going to do anything, he needs to apologize to his family first.</s>BATTISTA: Do you think he needs to go national with this, though?</s>TOENSING: You know, he could but I don't know what he's saving by going national because I don't think the Democrats will let him run again. He ought to be looking to his family; that's what should be important to him.</s>JACOBOVITZ: It's not clear what he could say nationally, as well.</s>BATTISTA: Yes -- but it's interesting that he is entertaining that idea, so I guess he feels the need to address the nation over this and not just his constituents.</s>TOENSING: Well, Dan Rather will probably get the interview. Sorry, Bobbie.</s>JACOBOVITZ: I guess that's the national network we are talking about.</s>BATTISTA: Almost. Let me go to the chatroom and see what it happening in there -- Benjamin.</s>BENJAMIN: The tips aren't being -- being blown out of proportion and should not be taken seriously, that the media just blew situation out the water, and have now ruined Condit's career and that they should have investigated the tips before they released it.</s>BATTISTA: Would it be fair to say the media has contributed to ruining his career?</s>JACOBOVITZ: Well, I think the media has to be, actually, looked at in a favorable light. Because what they have done is they've put pressure on this investigation, a lot through Billy Martin and Miss Levy's parents, and kept the investigation going, kept everybody pushing along, because a lot of what has come out and has transpired would not have been known, if not for the media pushing the story.</s>TOENSING: If it were not for the media interview of the aunt of Chandra, I don't think the congressman would have ever admitted the affair.</s>BATTISTA: What about the House -- the possibility of a House Ethics investigation here? It would seem unlikely, you know, on the obstruction of justice charge -- I don't know whether he'll...</s>TOENSING: Why?</s>BATTISTA: Well, because the history in Congress is that even congressmen that have been indicted are usually not punished or disciplined by their fellow colleagues.</s>JACOBOVITZ: Well, maybe Henry Hyde will be looking to do another investigation.</s>TOENSING: I'm not sure that that's the history, Bobbie. I think people with behavior less than indictable conduct have been looked at by the Ethics Committee.</s>TOENSING: They have put it on hold right now, because they say there's an ongoing investigation, but I think at a certain point, and particularly, there should be some pressure to get him off the House Intelligence Committee.</s>JACOBOVITZ: It's a difficult investigation, because what you're going to run into is what you've run into before during the Clinton administration, where there were congressmen actually resigning because they were in fact doing similar types of behavior, and it was coming out.</s>BATTISTA: So you're saying they didn't bother to wait for the House Ethics -- you know, there is no House ethics rule on adultery.</s>TOENSING: It's not adultery we are talking about.</s>BATTISTA: Right, but if they don't consider the obstruction of justice, then...</s>TOENSING: Well, they have to consider the obstruction of justice. He did not tell the police the whole story. He did try to get a witness to sign a false affidavit. He did throw away evidence. That seems to be a no brainer as far as basis to proceed.</s>BATTISTA: How long will they wait?</s>TOENSING: You are asking me?</s>BATTISTA: In the sense that is the police are insisting that he is no longer a focus in this investigation, in the search for where she may be, certainly, sort of winding down as well, then it would easy for the House to simply avoid the whole issue, wouldn't it?</s>TOENSING: No, it would easy now for them to proceed because then the police are no longer looking at him. Now the House can proceed.</s>BATTISTA: Right, but they have deferred it and they certainly don't look like they are going to revisit it any time soon.</s>TOENSING: They said they deferred it because there was an ongoing investigation of him and so of that is no longer proceeding then they ought to.</s>JACOBOVITZ: I think this will be an ongoing investigation for quite some time because of the publicity that has been generated and the body hasn't been found yet.</s>TOENSING: Well, the U.S. attorney's office has to decide whether to bring the obstruction charge and that would take maybe another month or so to decide that.</s>BATTISTA: Victoria Toensing and Jeff Jacobovitz, thanks you both very much for joining us. Appreciate it. In a moment: heat on the NFL following the death of Viking's tackle Corey Stringer. Are professional players pushed too hard, too long, and too far? We will ask two former players who have been there, done that. Stay with us.</s>BATTISTA: Welcome back. Korey Stringer, a 335-pound right tackle for the Minnesota Vikings collapsed during training on Tuesday. Early Wednesday morning he died of heat stroke. Stringer was just 27 years old.</s>RANDY MOSS, MINNESOTA VIKINGS: I don't even know where to start. It's like, he was here today, gone tomorrow.</s>DENNIS GREEN, MINNESOTA VIKINGS: We have lost a brother, a teammate and a friend. It's been very tough on our football team.</s>CHRIS CARTER, VIKINGS COACH: We never thought he would die. We knew it was critical. We knew the facts. We knew what his body was saying. We all had faith that this was something he would walk out of here. But that wasn't the case here.</s>BATTISTA: Stringer's core body temperature reached more than 108 degrees. How does that happen? How could he get so sick and no one notice? Joining us today, Chuck Smith a former player for the Atlanta Falcons and the Carolina Panthers. Rob Beck is with us, a litigation attorney that writes a column on sports and the law for foxsportsbiz.com. And Trev Albert is with us,a former player with the Indianapolis Colts and host of CNNSI's "NFL Preview." Welcome to all of you. Let me start with you guys because you have been in that environment. How does that happen? How does a player push himself so far that he pushes himself to the brink of death?</s>TREV ALBERTS, FORMER NFL PLAYER: You know, Bobbie, it's the culture of football, not just the NFL, but ever since we were five years old we were taught to fight through the pain, dig deep, find an extra motivation to go all the way. I think in this instance, Korey, the day before had to be carried off on a golf cart. He was throwing up, clearly needed some medical attention and yet was allowed the next day to go back on the field. It's my position that you can't depend on the players to tell the coaching staff, to tell the trainers, I'm done, I can't play anymore, because it's the culture. Nobody wants to be called a weenie. Everybody wants to be the tough guy. They are encouraged to be tough. And so you can't depend on the player. It's time for the NFL to have it's coaches and its training staff step in when they can clearly see that something is wrong. He should have never been on that practice field the next day.</s>BATTISTA: So, Chuck, the way I understand it too, he was so embarrassed about throwing up and having to leave practice the day before that he came back and pushed himself even harder the next day because of that environment, correct?</s>CHUCK SMITH, FORMER NFL PLAYER: That's the nature of the beast. Everyone is going to try that. In the National Football League you are judged what do you do on Sundays but people don't get a chance to see what happens on Mondays. Korey Stringer was a great player but I think it has come to the point where the players have to be accountable to themselves. I disagree with Trev. The players -- are you willing to die for football? No one here is willing to die for football. Sometimes you have to step back and say, hey, I'm dizzy, I am nauseous, it's time to sit down.</s>BATTISTA: Aren't you going to get mocked? Aren't they going to make fun of you for saying that though?</s>SMITH: No, you won't get mocked. Would you rather get mocked, or die?</s>BATTISTA: I agree, but the environment you are talking about, Trev, says they are pretty rough on guys who don't want to play through the pain.</s>ALBERTS: The reality is I think the National Football League and player's association -- I think Paul Tagliabue did a real disservice when he came out this week and just made a statement that says, I would like all teams to go out and reevaluate their training camps. That is not the issue here. You can't let teams police themselves. It is a competitive sport, a competitive environment. And if they think they have a competitive advantage to go in full pads the next day, they will do it. I think the NFL player's association has to come out and say let's set a uniform set of standards, that if it's 110 degrees you don't wear full pads, you don't practice.</s>BATTISTA: You know, let me get Rob in here real quick. I certainly understand playing through the pain if you have a broken finger or a pulled muscle, something like that. These things don't kill you. But heat stroke or not having enough water in your system, this is a silent killer and it comes up quickly.</s>ROB BECKER, ATTORNEY/SPORTS COLUMNIST: Yeah, I definitely agree with Trev. In addition to the peer pressure, you have to remember that one of the effects of heat exhaustion is that your mental capacity is impaired. You don't have the ability to figure out for yourself whether you should stop. That's why the league has to have a set of objective standards that you look at, such as repeated vomiting and having been removed from the field the previous day, say, OK, this guy's got to get off. And furthermore, you have to have medical personnel who can overrule coaches and just say, this guy is off. I don't care what you think.</s>BATTISTA: Go ahead, Chuck, you want to answer.</s>SMITH: If you are going to start at the top, let's start with the owners then. Let's go where it starts. The owners put pressure on the head coaches, the head coaches put pressure on the players. And also, where do the owners get pressure from? The fans. They want a winner at all costs.</s>BECKER: At all costs, Chuck? What makes you say at all costs? Do you think the Minnesota Vikings fans want Korey Stringer dead? They care about these players.</s>SMITH: No. I am not saying they want him dead. I am saying the owners want a winner. They are willing to do whatever. Have you been out there? I do not think so. So, you cannot tell me this. You can't talk to me about an NFL training camp.</s>BECKER: Oh, please. You mean to say you have to be an NFL player to be able to assess whether they've gone too far?</s>SMITH: I have been to nine NFL training camps, when I got tired, I sat my butt down.</s>BECKER: If you say it's up to the player...</s>SMITH: When you can go to an NFL training camp, you tell me then.</s>BECKER: You need people to be paternalistic and overlook them.</s>SMITH: I love Korey Stringer. I never said anything about wanting him to die. Pressure comes from people like you, who talk about people like us...</s>BECKER: Where do you get off penalizing and saying that -- I'm the guy who wants more protection for players. You are the guy saying they should make up their minds even though their minds aren't there.</s>SMITH: All I am saying as a man, you have the right to make your own decision. No one makes you do anything. It was unfortunate what happened to Korey. Yes, maybe he should have been a little more understanding of what his situation was, and maybe someone should have taken him off the field. But it didn't happen. Let's not attack the Mississippi Vikings. Let's talk about where it start -- at the top.</s>BECKER: You don't think you can look at a guy who's thrown up three times, been carted off the field the previous day who has a history of always failing on the second day of practice. He has a history of always losing out, not being able to finish the second day of practice. You don't think they should do something like that and rely on him to make up his mind when his mind is going to be impaired. I don't think you care enough. I think you are off an a little macho kick because you are a tough guy. You are looking at me and you are saying, you just said to me, I'm not on field, you are.</s>SMITH: Through the history of time. This has happened many times.</s>BECKER: It's actually on the increase, did you know that?</s>BATTISTA: I am going to jump in here and break this up. I have to go to break. Real quickly here, let me get a comment from the audience.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arnie is from Texas. Arnie, go ahead.</s>ARNIE: Yes, this is not a culture specific to football only. I would be willing to bet that any self-respecting athlete pushes himself beyond personal his personal limits, not just Korey or football.</s>BATTISTA: I agree, but I have to take a quick break. Stay with us.</s>BATTISTA: Couple of e-mails here. Susan in Ohio says, "Coaches treat players like machines. But a human being can only take so much. Players will not say when they have had enough." Bill from California says, "Professional athletes are paid to train for endurance toughness and ability. Without these proven training methods we can not have professionalism in sports. Why call for change after one incident?" I don't think anybody wants to change that. We are talking more about maybe why don't they train indoors or in cooler climates or something so they are not subjecting themselves to something preventable, like heat stroke. Let me take Jim on the phone really quickly. He's been hanging on from California. Jim, go ahead.</s>JIM: I think people are missing whole idea with this. You really can't perform to your top level and as good as you need to do if you are dead. They find it a lot easier if you are alive. From the high school level on, I was taught -- I was a kicker -- and I was taught that you do not get water or you do not do anything during the two-a-days back then. I even would try to pull a thing where I could go into the bathroom and get a drink of water by saying I had to the restroom. They would send an assistant coach or someone with me to make sure I did not drink any water.</s>BATTISTA: What kind of Neanderthal attitude equates drinking water with being a wimp. I don't get that. You don't drink water, you are a wimp, because you can't perform.</s>ALBERTS: When we were kids, chuck and I were kids, and we played football in high school and little league, that's what it was. When the coach got mad at you for having a bad first practice, he would come out an say no water second practice. Thankfully we've learned from that. The whole point to me now is this tragedy has happened. Let's not make another tragedy by after a couple days saying well, it's just something that happened. Let's really look that this and lets say how can we make sure that this thing doesn't happen again. Let's make sure that Korey Stringers of the world don't do something, and if a guy is throwing up the day before he shouldn't be allow to go back to practice. Something needs to be done and I hope the NFL is smart enough this time to step up and say, we are going to do something.</s>BATTISTA: Chuck, you agree that something needs to be done, but you think it needs to start at top.</s>SMITH: I think it needs to start at the top. There is so much pressure for the players to win, they are willing to do anything. I have been player who has been willing to do anything. So looking at it like that, it has to start from up top. There is so much pressure from the fans, from the owners, from the coaches, the trickle effect. It just doesn't start yesterday. This has been going for as long as the NFL has been going on.</s>BATTISTA: It's amazing there haven't been more deaths.</s>SMITH: It's amazing. I have been in the league, if you took everyone off the field that throws up, there wouldn't any NFL. I'm not saying, making an excuse for what happened...</s>BATTISTA: Let me ask the two of you if either one of you ever came close to heat exhaustion.</s>ALBERTS: I think Chuck would say he probably came close, and I know I came close. I think the point is that that happens every day. If you knew -- on a typical two-a-day practice in training camp, there may be 19 guys at the end of practice get IVs. And I think the point is now you have to think, if you are an NFL football player, at what point do you say to yourself, how close am I? Do I need stop now? There has to be a line where you realize, because you know all the symptoms. When you start becoming really dehydrated you will see guys lose control of all bodily fluids. They will start urinating on themselves. It's not a nice sight, but that happens. The next thing you know, their whole body goes into spasms where the muscles contract. The trainers then haul them quickly into the training room and you get IVs. And then guess what happens, the next day all your teammates make fun of you for being such a wuss that you had to get an IV and miss part of the practice. That's the culture of football. It's not an NFL problem, it's a culture of football that start way down there at the little league level.</s>BATTISTA: And why would changing that affect the game?</s>ALBERTS: That's my point. Training camp was instituted years and years ago when guys worked in the off-season to get them in shape. Now guys work year around to stay in shape. And six weeks and two-a- days and pads and I think it's been proven, you play for George Seifert, they won Super Bowls in San Francisco, they don't hit anybody all week. Buffalo Bills made it to four Super Bowls, they don't hit anybody all week. So you don't have to do all this hitting. You can still get your work done and I think that's what teams need to take a look at.</s>BATTISTA: Rob and Chuck too the other thing that we need to keep in mind I think is that the players are getting bigger and faster. Doesn't that change -- how much can the human body take, you know? When you are -- what was he 340 pounds or something? I mean, if the player are getting bigger and faster, the organs can only sustain so much.</s>BECKER: That's why you have to take in account their weight. And that should be one of the factors that you have in an objective set of standards for who is going to have to be yanked off the field. And certainly offensive and defensive lineman would be among the first. Maybe Chuck doesn't want to hear that, but that's what I would do. There are several other things that need to be done. Following up on what Trev said, it's true that in the old days you weren't allowed to get water and now you are allowed to get water. But the way to improve that is you enforce water breaks. In other words, you say, at this time, everybody is going to take a water break. Then no one has to worry about peer pressure and everyone gets the water they need. Secondly, you have your practices earlier in the day and later in the day so you're not in the heat of the sun. And then here's the biggest one. You should remember that the Vikings had their first two days of practice this week, this is when this tragedy happened. They went straight to full-blown practices. Now, I realize that Dennis Green is not one of the really tough coaches, in terms of practices, so there's an irony here. But the whole league has to say, we can't start right in with full practices. What everyone has to listen to is one thing: the labor department of this country and their Occupational Safety Health Agency has the following thing to say on this. It says: "New employees and workers returning from an absence of two weeks or more should have a five-day period of acclimatization. This period should begin with 50 percent of the normal workload and time exposure the first day, and gradually building up 100 percent on the fifth day. I guarantee...</s>BATTISTA: Chuck, they don't do anything like that, is what you're saying. You just hit the field.</s>SMITH: Man, will you please just keep it real? No, they don't do that. I've been playing...</s>SMITH: I've been playing football since 1983. I remember in little league, the coaches telling me, Chuck, stay hydrated. I played nine years in the National Football League. I remember Atlanta Falcons trainer, Ron Medlin, saying, "Drink, drink, drink." No one's going to -- this is the National Football League. They tell you all that stuff. You know about hydration. You know about taking care of your body. So that's not even realistic, thinking the NFL is going to be -- they don't drink. Man, the trainers in the National Football League know everything that you need to know and the players do, too.</s>BATTISTA: Hold on, guys. I'm sorry, I have to break. We'll be back in a moment.</s>BATTISTA: Sorry, I've been sneezing all day. I don't know what's going on. Let me go quickly to the audience, then I'll do this e-mail.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Football players are grown adults. They have to take responsibility like the rest of us do for their own health and their own safety. A thousand rules aren't going to save them if they choose not to follow them. It has to start with them. They have to say, "I'm thirsty, I can't do this. I have to sit out." But then the coaches and the trainers have to respect that. It's a two-way street.</s>BATTISTA: Yes, Tony in Florida says: "When I was in high school, I broke my collarbone after a tackle. The coach grabbed me by the jersey and said, 'Get up, you dog.' When I screamed, he finally realized that I was actually hurt. Who is at fault, me, or the coach?" He wants to know.</s>ALBERT: I think it's pretty easy. I think it's the coach. And I think that's part of the issues. I remember in my three years, I mean, I saw guy after guy who was seriously injured get shot up and choose to get shot up, or didn't know the repercussions and got shot up and played the whole season long, and are dealing with it now when they're 40 and 50, when they're in "Sports Illustrated" explaining why their left leg is being amputated. So, like the earlier young lady said, yes, the players have to step up and take ownership of their body. But the second point is equally as important. The trainers and the coaches have to allow the players to do that. And right now in the NFL, it is not allowed to happen. There's definitely a lot of pressure coming from the coaches. There's no doubt about that, no doubt. But a lot of players, you have to understand the mentality. If you're a rookie trying to make the team, this is your only way right now of making money, a livelihood -- you might have a child. A lot of guys are going to do what they have to do. And so they take responsibility for themselves. There's no problem -- the trainers will tell you the warning signs, but the high school coach there, he's...</s>ALBERT: He needs to be fired.</s>SMITH: Yes, he's out of here. Get him out of here.</s>BATTISTA: Well, you know, that's where -- obviously, we're seeing the deaths happen more in high school and college. Rob, I mean, 18 in the last five years or so?</s>BECKER: Yes, there's been a huge increase. In the middle of the 20th century we were having about one death every five or six years. Now this problem has gotten much worse. I mean, the very problem, as Chuck Smith, when he says, OK, this guy goes into camp and he's got to earn money for his family. He's under rookie pressure. That's what gets him in trouble.</s>BATTISTA: Quickly, Rob, we're out of time. Rob Becker, thank you very much. Chuck Smith and Trev Albert, thank you very much for joining us. Appreciate all of you being here. And we will see you guys again tomorrow for more TALKBACK LIVE. Join us then.