U.S. Attorney for Southern District of New York Denies He is Resigning after Attorney General Bill Barr Announced He was Stepping Down; President Trump Holding Campaign Rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Despite Concerns over Coronavirus Spread
CHRISTI PAUL, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you. We begin this hour with breaking news. A standoff between Attorney General Bill Barr and a powerful U.S. attorney who has investigated a number of the president's associates.</s>VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: The Justice Department announced that the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York is stepping down. But Geoffrey Berman says he's not going to resign. He has no intention of doing so. During his tenure, Berman has handled several high-profile cases. The prosecution of Michael Cohen, President Trump's former personal attorney, Jeffrey Epstein as well. His office is currently investigating Rudy Giuliani and two of his associates. CNN's Kara Scannell is joining us now. Kara, this dispute happens as the attorney general continues to face these accusations that he's politicizing</s>DOJ. KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: That's right, Victor. Good morning. This turn of events last night began with a statement from Bill Barr, the attorney general, saying that Geoffrey Berman, the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York had agreed to step down and that he was being replaced. About two hours later, Geoffrey Berman issued an extraordinary statement saying that he did not resign and he does not intend to resign. Here is what he said. He said, "I will step down when a presidentially-appointed nominee is confirmed by the Senate. Until then, our investigations will move forward without delay or interruption. I cherish every day that I work with the men and women of this office to pursue justice without fear or favor and intend to ensure that this office's important cases continue unimpeded." Now, they're at a standoff right now, but this does come as there are questions about Bill Barr and whether some of the actions he's taking is to undercut cases or undercut the Justice Department by bringing politics into their cases. There was talk that Barr was going to replace Berman last fall, but then Berman's office indicted Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, those two Giuliani associates. That would have made it seem too political. And then Barr himself has been political, where there were questions about his characterization of the Mueller Report, and then earlier this year him stepping into the sentencing of Roger Stone. At the time, back in March, Geoffrey Berman in New York was asked if Bill Barr had interfered in the Giuliani investigation. Here is what he said.</s>GEOFFREY BERMAN, U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: The Southern District of New York has a long history of integrity and pursuing cases and declining to pursue cases based only on the facts and the law and the equities without regard to partisan political concerns. My primary commitment is and has been to maintain those core values. And that's how our office is operate operating.</s>SCANNELL: And that's how Jeff Berman is behaving right now, saying that he will not resign until there is a Senate-confirmed position. Christi, Victor?</s>PAUL: Response from the Democrats, Kara, what are you hearing?</s>SCANNELL: Yes. So last night, Jerry Nadler, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, said he would welcome Geoffrey Berman to testify next week. Chuck Schumer, the Senate minority leader, issued a statement where he said "The late Friday night dismissal reeks of potential corruption in the legal process. What is angering President Trump? A previous action by this U.S. attorney or one that is ongoing?" So raising questions again about the motivations behind this attempt or first step toward a firing. Christi, Victor?</s>BLACKWELL: Kara Scannell for us. Kara, thanks so much.</s>PAUL: Thank you. Paul Callan, a former homicide prosecutor in New York and a CNN legal analyst is with us now. Paul, so good to see you again. We know that SDNY is regarded as one of the most independent prosecutorial offices in the U.S. With that said, what power does Berman have to fight for his position?</s>PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Berman is in a remarkably strong position because he essentially was appointed by the district court judges of the federal district that he sits in. And that happened because Trump never submitted his name for approval to the Senate. So the judges stepped in and said there are ongoing investigations, and they renewed his appointment. Now, he cannot be replaced until the Senate approves Trump's choice for the job, which is the head of the SEC, Jay Clayton. But in order to get him approved, you've got to have Senate hearings. And that's going to open up testimony from Berman about embarrassing Trump investigations that are ongoing, the Michael Cohen cooperation, issues that came up in the John Bolton book about a Turkish bank under investigation, all kinds of embarrassing things could come up during these hearings.</s>BLACKWELL: Yes. That's really the question of why and why now. The Bolton book not in everyone's hand, but some people are getting copies of it. And that line about the president potentially interfering according to an accusation from Bolton in an Erdogan investigation related to a bank.</s>CALLAN: Yes. I think that's of particular embarrassment. Of course, a lot of the things going on in the Bolton book have to do with Trump doing things to help his political campaign and not the United States. And one of those things supposedly was a promise to the Turkish president that when he got all the Obama people out of the Justice Department, he would be able to quash an investigation into a Turkish bank regarding Iranian sanctions. Now, all of the details about this may come out during Senate approval hearings of his new appointee, Jay Clayton. And this creates a problem for Trump and gives, I think, Berman a lot of leverage to remain in position as U.S. attorney for the Southern District.</s>PAUL: Paul, I understand that you noticed a correlation between what we see happening now and something that happened during the Nixon administration. What is it that you noticed?</s>CALLAN: Well, this is interesting because this has never happened before. You have to go back really to the Nixon administration when Robert Morgenthau, who later became the district attorney of Manhattan, was the U.S. attorney in the Southern District. He had been appointed by Democrats, and Nixon was trying to force him out. He refused to resign, much as Berman is doing. Now, eventually Morgenthau did resign, but that's the last, you have to go that far back in history to the Nixon administration to see a U.S. attorney refusing the order of an attorney general and a president to resign.</s>BLACKWELL: So we take a look back at precedent here, let's take a look ahead now. The significance of Jay Clayton, someone who I learned this morning does not have prosecutorial experience, now potentially leading up</s>SDNY. CALLAN: Yes, very unusual. He's a corporate lawyer, comes from a big Wall Street law firm, Sullivan and Cromwell. And he's the guy in charge of the SEC. But he has no criminal prosecutorial experience. Usually, especially for this U.S. attorney position in the Southern District, which prosecutes organized crime, terrorists, white collar criminals, sophisticated white-collar schemes, because it's in charge of Wall Street. So normally you want to see an experienced criminal prosecutor in that job. Clayton has no criminal prosecutorial experience. And that could be a problem at his confirmation hearings, which we'll see.</s>PAUL: How is Berman regarded, Paul?</s>CALLAN: Well, Berman was a guy who came in with a lot of skepticism. He came out of the same law firm that Giuliani was out of, Greenberg Traurig. And there was a thought that he was too close to Trump. People were suspicious of him. But he's turned out to be a sterling U.S. attorney. And a lot of the U.S. attorneys in Manhattan who were skeptical, I think, have felt him to be an honest and dedicated prosecutor willing to go after whatever administration happens to be in office. Now, remember, he's the guy who prosecuted Michael Cohen. He also prosecuted Michael Avenatti, who at the sometime was a popular guy in Democratic circles. So he's been a nonpartisan prosecutor of both sides of the aisle, and I think he's earned the respect of lawyers throughout New York.</s>BLACKWELL: What's the potential impact on the DOJ beyond just this office?</s>CALLAN: Well, I think that this causes a lot of embarrassment for the Department of Justice because in the area of political investigations, the DOJ has always tried to create sort of an independent unit. Within all of the offices the guys who prosecute and the women who prosecute politicians tend to be career prosecutors and they try to wall them off really from political aspects of the Department of Justice. And now, the Department of Justice is starting to just look like a political arm of the Trump administration. And I think that's very disturbing to the country and to a lot of lawyers who are seeing the reputation of the Department of Justice being smeared by the way it's being run.</s>PAUL: Paul Callan, so appreciate your knowledge and your sharing of all of this with us this morning. Take good care. Thank you.</s>CALLAN: Thank you, Christi.</s>PAUL: Sure. And getting back on the campaign trail is the president's focus today. We know that supporters are already waiting. Take a look at these live pictures from Tulsa. They have been in line, some of them, overnight. Tonight's event is moving forward despite this rising coronavirus case count in Oklahoma and in neighboring states such as Texas. And of course there's the advice of health experts from Tulsa to his own administration, saying, please, do not do this without masks, without social distancing.</s>BLACKWELL: Let's start with CNN's Sarah Westwood. She is following this from the White House. Sarah, what's the expectation of what we're going to see here tonight? I understand that the campaign supporters call this a celebration.</s>SARAH WESTWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right, Victor and Christi. The president billing this tonight as a really big night. And it is. The campaign is looking at this as something of a reboot for his reelection effort, which has more of less stalled over the past three months. The president has not held a rally since before the country shut down for coronavirus. And campaign aides and advisers recognize that the political landscape has really shifted in that time and it's really moving away from President Trump, they recognize. For example, that his path to reelection could be narrowing because of the economic downturn and the racial tensions that we've seen in this country and what's been perceived, according to the polls, it's reflected that the president's efforts have not been received well by a number of Americans. So that is a problem that the campaign hopes to address by getting the president back out there on the road. He can push his message that the country is reopening for business, and that is something that the campaign is retooling his message around now that what was his strongest case for re-election, the booming economy, has all be disappeared because of coronavirus. There are still risks to the president holding this rally, though, as public health officials have been saying for weeks leading up to this event. The president himself acknowledged that in an interview with the "Wall Street Journal" earlier this week. I want to read you a key part of the interview. "The Wall Street Journal" asked President Trump "What happens if your supporters get sick at one of these rallies?" And Trump responded, "Well, people have to know that, yes, you do. But it's tiny, you know. It's a very small percentage." So there the president acknowledging the near certainty that some people in this setting could contract coronavirus. The campaign is taking a number of measures to try to mitigate this. They're going to have hand sanitizer stations. They'll be conducting temperature checks. And they'll be handing out masks, but it's not mandatory that people wear them. In fact, the tone for that could be being set at the top. I want you to take a listen to White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany yesterday saying that she would not personally be wearing her mask at the rally.</s>KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It's a personal choice. I won't be wearing a mask. I can't speak for my colleagues.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And why won't you wear a mask? Is it sort of a personal, political statement? Is it because the president would be disappointed in you if you don't wear a mask?</s>MCENANY: It's a personal decision. I'm tested regularly. I feel that it's safe for me not to be wearing a mask, and I'm in compliance with CDC guidelines, which are recommended but not required.</s>WESTWOOD: Local officials say as many as 100,000 people could be convening near the Bank of Oklahoma Center tonight, 20,000 inside the arena alone. The president will depart for Tulsa later this afternoon from the White House, Victor and Christi.</s>PAUL: Sarah Westwood, thank you so much. Appreciate it.</s>BLACKWELL: Let's go to Martin Savidge now. He is in Tulsa. Martin, good morning to you. And Tulsa County has the most confirmed COVID-19 cases in Oklahoma. The worry is that this could be a super spreader event. What are the people behind you, are they planning to do at this rally? Will they wear the mask? Will they try to create some distance?</s>MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Victor. Good morning, Christi. I think pictures probably can tell you the answer to that maybe more than my words. This is the crowd, right at the front of the line, by the way, of people waiting to get in through the security gates and eventually, they hope, to get into the rally itself. Some of these people have been in line for a week now. That's right, since last Saturday. You may notice not a whole lot of masks being worn by anybody. And you may also notice that there's really not a whole lot of social distancing that's taking place. So, this line gives you an indication maybe of what to anticipate for this evening. They aren't concerned. I've talked to many people here. Their health concerns are not about COVID. They realize the potential is there, but they're not worried. Here are some of those we spoke with.</s>DOLLY CAMPBELL, OKLAHOMA CITY RESIDENT: I don't mind going into the arena with the pandemic and the spikes because that's the beautiful thing about our country. I know that I am fully taking on the risk of possibly encountering or being exposed to it. But as an American, that's my right.</s>LONDY MARRACINO, STEUBENVILLE, OHIO, RESIDENT: It doesn't worry me that much because I have my health. So, I was never really worried about it in the first place.</s>AARON, NORMAN, OKLAHOMA, RESIDENT: If I think everyone is keeping some hand sanitizer around them a little bit, and do this a little bit right here, I think it will be all right. Wear the masks. Wear the masks.</s>SAVIDGE: Sarah Westwood already mentioned the numbers they're anticipating. The city thinks maybe 100,000 people, of which only 20,000 will be able to get into the BOK center. Still, 20,000 people packed in there for hours at a time, health officials know that there will be people who will have coronavirus. That's just by the sheer numbers, and you do the math. And so undoubtedly it is going to spread inside of that facility, and then once people leave and go back to their respective homes and communities, and many have come from all over, they'll be taking that kind of medical souvenir with them. And that is, of course, the real concern for health officials here. Maybe not for those attending, but the worry is that this event by itself could spread coronavirus far and wide.</s>BLACKWELL: We'll see in the next couple of weeks as potentially those numbers continue to increase. Martin Savidge live there in Tulsa, thank you. Still ahead, we'll get reaction from two Oklahoma leaders from opposite sides of the aisle on tonight's rally, their thoughts on the health concerns and what they hope to hear from the president.</s>PAUL: And a growing number of local officials all over the country are requiring residents to wear face masks. As you just saw, obviously there are some that are reluctant. There's a Florida mayor, though, who says he is about to sign an order mandating them.