Are Russia, China And Iran Trying To Meddle In 2020 U.S. Elections?; Which Economies Will Emerge Stronger From COVID-19?
ZAKARIA: On Friday, America's counterintelligence official warned that not only was Russia trying to meddle in the 2020 election but China and Iran are, too. So what exactly is going on and what do we need to know about it? Joining me now are Laura Rosenberger and Nina Jankowicz. Laura is a senior fellow at the German Marshall Fund of the U.S. and Nina is a disinformation fellow at the Wilson Center and has a new book out, "How to Lose the Information War." Nina, you argued that we misconceived the nature of Russia's disinformation and you have as proof a fascinating example of an anti- Trump rally that involves the musical "Les Mis." Explain.</s>NINA JANKOWICZ, DISINFORMATION FELLOW, WILSON CENTER: Yes, so I think we all think that disinformation is about cut and dry fakes but that couldn't be farther from the truth. What Russia does is manipulate our emotions. It uses preexisting grievances and fissures in our society and amplifies them to pit us against one another on both sides of the political spectrum. So in my book I discuss this flash mob where this was unsealed in the 2018 criminal complaint during the Russia investigation that talked about the Internet Research Agency and the IAR used $80 worth of Facebook ads to support a pro-Trump "Les Mis" flash mob where people singing songs, parodies from "Les Mis" about impeaching President Trump outside of the White House on July 4th, 2017. So after the presidential election, Russia was continuing to interfere. Continuing to drive these fissures, make them even larger in our society, pit us against one another so that people start to disengage as Russia floods the zone with disinformation, various narratives, all of these things. People don't want to participate in democracy. That's what disinformation is really about. Really denigrating the democratic system, which is great for Moscow. Moscow wants us to be so occupied by our affairs here at home that we're ignoring its adventurism in Syria, in Ukraine, and Putin can point to that to his own people and say, is that the sort of democracy you want? No, you want the authoritarianism that I've given you for the past 20-plus years.</s>ZAKARIA: That is fascinating. Now, Laura, when you look at this Chinese authoritarianism is on the rise, in a sense, there's a greater confidence. You talk about the Wolf warriors in your book. But the goals seem very different.</s>LAURA ROSENBERGER, SENIOR FELLOW, GERMAN MARSHALL FUND OF THE U.S.: Yes, that's right, Fareed. I think whereas Russia is really looking to engage in chaos and destruction, as Nina laid out, China's goals are much more about shaping the external environment in a way that's in its favor and cultivating individuals or narratives that it thinks are positive about the Chinese Communist Party. Now, it uses some of the same tactics that we see from Russia and increasingly I think it's beginning to learn from Russian tactics but it uses those to different ends. So let me just give a couple of examples. We do see the Chinese party state, its officials and media engaging in information manipulation. Some of this is traditionally really aimed at amplifying and creating positive narratives about the Chinese Communist Party and suppressing unwanted narratives. Things that are negative about China. We have seen during COVID-19 an evolution of a more assertive practice, this Wolf warrior diplomacy that you mentioned, around Chinese officials and media outlets, taking a much more assertive posture online, directly denigrating the United States, criticizing its handling of COVID-19, criticizing democracy as unable to deal with today's challenges. And I think that's about a few things. The first is that, number one, you know, some of the failures at home, we are providing a little bit of a right target surface just as we do to Russia. But I think a lot of this for Chinese officials is actually about deflecting blame from their own initial mishandling of the virus. And it's about a good example and a good moment where they believe they can hold up Chinese authoritarianism by the Chinese Communist Party as a model in contrast to democracy that seems to be, you know, in their telling of it, mishandling many problems.</s>ZAKARIA: So it's very interesting to me, it seems, because it sounds like on the one hand you have China that is rising and trying to shape norms, make people aware of its influence, and Russia, on the decline, essentially nihilistic. And so I wonder if there's -- is there a strategy to handle both or does one have to have different strategies for each one? What do you think, Nina?</s>JANCOWICZ: Well, I always advocate for the fact that we need to invest in the root causes of disinformation. Reeling those root causes. So whether it's coming from China, Iran, Russia or even domestic disinformation which certainly has been proliferating during the COVID-19 crisis, we need to invest in a better information environment. That means giving people the tools that they need to navigate this flow of information. Investing in media and digital literacy, not only for school-age children but for voters as well. And in addition to that, investing in journalism as a public good. You know, the United States only spends about $3 per person per year on our corporation for public broadcasting. In comparison to other democracies around the world, that is slim to none. It is embarrassing, frankly. And it makes us less resilient because where there is a vacuum, certainly we've seen local news vacuums proliferating recently, that is where disinformation is able to step in and fill that vacuum, fill that vacuum with narratives and information that, frankly, are not only a threat to our national security, they're a threat to public health these days as well. So those are the long-term investments that I would make to counter any sort of disinformation whether foreign or domestic.</s>ZAKARIA: Laura, any quick additions or would you do it differently?</s>ROSENBERGER: No, I completely agree with Nina. And I'll just add a couple of things there. The first is that I think a pull back from U.S. global leadership in general has provided a bit of a vacuum for China to assert its ability to shape global norms and to cultivate these partnerships. But as Nina mentioned, we see as well from with Russia with its own adventurism. And I think the last bit is, and this really builds on Nina's point about media literacy, is I think in general we need to build resilience in our societies against a lot of these tactics. There are certainly a lot of things that we need to do that deal with, you know, going more directly at Moscow and at Beijing from a foreign policy and national security perspective. But a lot of this really is about building the resiliency in our own society to ensure that these tactics don't take hold.</s>ZAKARIA: Nina, Laura, really fascinating conversation. Thank you very much.</s>JANCOWICZ: Thanks so much.</s>ZAKARIA: Next on GPS, the pandemic has damaged some nations quite deeply economically, but which nations will rise above COVID and thrive? The surprising answers from Ruchir Sharma when we return.