Prison Employee Charged as Accomplice in Prison Escape of Two Killers
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: The breaking news is the hunt for two escaped killers in upstate New York. This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Here's what sources are telling CNN. That Joyce Mitchell, the prison employee, charged as an accomplice in their escape warned her husband that the convicts planned to kill him. We're going to have the very latest on that. Also, Rachel Dolezal, a former NAACP leader who was born white says she identifies as a black woman. We're going to her parents who say their daughter is disconnected from reality. A whole lot to get in this next hour. We're going to begin with the breaking news in a hunt where the escaped killers who broke out of a prison 11 days ago. CNN's Randi Kaye is live for us in West Plattsburgh, New York with new information. Randi, I understand about the allege plot to kill Joyce Mitchell's husband. What can you tell us about that?</s>RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, we spoke with a source with direct knowledge of this investigation and he told me today that Joyce Mitchell did warn her husband, Lioele Mitchell, that the two escapees were coming to kill him, that at least was the plan. As you know she knew very well what the escape was. She also knew about the plot to kill her husband, Lioele Mitchell according to the source. And she --there's a motorcycle there, sorry about that. But hopefully you can still hear me. She actually told her husband about the escape plan and then went on to tell him about the plot to harm him and possibly to kill hill and that's how Lioele Mitchell fits in to this whole puzzle because the investigators were initially looking at him to see if maybe, he was part of the escape plan. Maybe he was working with his wife to help these men get out of the prison. Now they're looking at it as more as maybe his wife just alerted him to the escape plan so he did have knowledge of it but didn't actually participated in it. But either way, Don, neither Joyce Mitchell nor Lioele Mitchell told authorities about the plan.</s>LEMON: It was a very loud motorcycle, Randi, but you were fine, we could hear every word. In terms of Joyce's relationship with Richard Matt, which last night we learn was a sexual one. Have you learned anymore about that Randi?</s>KAYE: I've learned from the source that their relationship goes back to 2013 when Richard Matt, David Sweat, the other escapee, and Joyce Mitchell and her husband who works maintenance at the prison all worked in the tailor shop. David Sweat was moved out of the tailor shop in 2013 and that when Richard Matt apparently started this relationship with Joyce Mitchell. According to the source, it was a sexual relationship. I am told that they had sexual encounter inside the tailor shop at the prison because, Don, that is the only place that the two of them were able to be alone but -- but together there in that tailor shop.</s>LEMON: What about the others, others who may have been involved in this elaborate plot? Are they looking at anyone else right now?</s>KAYE: They are. I mean, certainly, it doesn't stop with Joyce Mitchell. I'm told that because it was so elaborate they believe that others were likely involved. They're even looking at some of the prisoners. They think that maybe they created some type of diversion and that was either happening during the escape or before or after, but some of diversion at the prisoners may have been involved and they are certainly looking at that. And they are looking at other employees of the prison. They don't think that Joyce Mitchell was the only one. They are talking to others, examining others and investigating this thoroughly going through the employees there at the prison.</s>LEMON: Randi Kaye, I appreciate your reporting. Thank you very much. Joining me now is Chris Swecker, former assistant director of the FBI who led the team that captured Eric Rudolph, the man who bombed the Atlanta Olympics back in 1996. Excuse me. Also Bernard Kerik, former New York City police commissioner and CEO of the Kerik Group. I'm happy to have both of you here gentlemen here this evening. Bernard, to you, what's your reaction to Randi's latest report?</s>BERNARD KERIK, NEW YORK CITY FORMER POLICE COMMISSIONER: Well, I think, you know, the investigation is ongoing. I don't think Joyce Mitchell is the big end all answer here.</s>LEMON: Why not.</s>KERIK: I think the security in the institution was extreme relax, to say the least. The inmate created diversion, no kidding. You know, and also some staff should have heard that. The night he left -- those inmates left, they were lasted to 10.30, no dismissal at 5.30 in the morning, there should have been between 7 to 14 checks of that cell, those cells where they saw a living breathing body and there was not.</s>LEMON: So, what went wrong then?</s>KERIK: There were staff that wasn't doing their job. You know, the reality is, I don't care what Joyce Mitchell gave them or did for them. If security in the institution was working they would have discovered the plan, they would have discovered the cell damage, and they would discover -- they would have stopped this from happening.</s>LEMON: Yes. So, I have to ask you this, do you have seen from both sides, right?</s>KERIK: Yes.</s>LEMON: You have seen this from both sides. So, how do you feel about what happened, yourself as former inmate?</s>KERIK: In this circumstance?</s>LEMON: Yes.</s>KERIK: You know what, it's insane. You know, the whole Joyce Mitchell thing going back to 2013, what she still doing working there?</s>LEMON: OK. That was my next question to you. Because I was going to ask you, is this gross negligence as what else is trying to get that part. KERIK. I think it is.</s>LEMON: OK.</s>KERIK: As somebody that run Rikers for six years...</s>LEMON: Right.</s>KERIK: ... and had a 133,000 inmate admissions a year.</s>LEMON: Right.</s>KERIK: I want to know the genius that put together the honor dorm that had these guys civilian clothes had them unescorted, you know, movement throughout the facility.</s>LEMON: That's why I asked from both sides. That's why I ask the question. Now you've answered it. But also shouldn't they have known? Shouldn't something have been up with this Joyce Mitchell person? Shouldn't someone at the facility said, wait a minute?</s>KERIK: Well, there' a whole gross of flags where somebody should have known and somebody should have looked at it and they didn't.</s>LEMON: Yes. So, Chris, to you now, when you -- when we last spoke to you, you thought that Vermont lead that it was a red hearing, do you think that tonight?</s>CHRIS SWECKER, FBI FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Yes. It didn't seem like it was a lot of substance around it. I mean, it was only -- it seem like it was an off handed comment that was related to somebody. And it just looked to me like a great opportunity for the Vermont governor to get in the act here and get in front of the cameras. I don't -- I haven't heard anything about it since.</s>LEMON: Yes. Do you think the escapees could be holding hostages?</s>SWECKER: I think that's a distinct possibility. You know, you look at Christopher Dorner, the fugitive out of California, the former L.A. police officer, he was watching the manhunt from a cabin nearby and the law enforcement, the researchers had come to the door at least once or twice. You know, it's only logical that these guys are not good outdoors, they're not Eric Robert Rudolph or Eric Frein, they were surprised by the plan going array and they were on foot. So, it would be logical to get inside as quickly as possible.</s>LEMON: How long could they hold up with -- before they are found potentially do you think?</s>SWECKER: Well I think if they're indoors that they have shelter they can wait it out. The stakes are high for them, they're in it for the long haul, they're not going to get taken alive, I don't think.</s>LEMON: Yes.</s>SWECKER: So, I think they are going to -- if they have shelter they're going to stay there.</s>LEMON: Yes. Do you agree?</s>KERIK: I pretty much agree. You know, Joanne Chesimard who went to Cuba.</s>LEMON: Yes.</s>KERIK: She was -- she escaped out of a New Jersey State Prison and wound up sitting in the basement of a place in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania for two years before they were ever got out of the country.</s>LEMON: Really?</s>KERIK: So, you know, if these guys are bogged down somewhere they could be there for a long time.</s>LEMON: But you say, aren't they caught? I guess it's not that elaborate. They're caught within 3 to 4 days, did you say that?</s>KERIK: Well, usually about 72 hours.</s>LEMON: Yes.</s>KERIK: That's when they get caught. Which is why I believe they had one shot at this. They -- I think, they had a plan on where they were going how they were going to get there and it really didn't involve Joyce Mitchell.</s>LEMON: You keep saying that. So, do you think they had another accomplice like who? Who is...</s>KERIK: Who knows? It could be somebody that helped them from the inside. It could be somebody in the outside. If these guys had the equipment they say they had where they were given by staff by Joyce Mitchell...</s>LEMON: Yes.</s>KERIK: I'm confident they had cell phones.</s>LEMON: Well, Chris, do you agree with that? Pardon me for interrupting you, do you agree with that? And do you think that possibly they may have been feeding Joyce Mitchell false information?</s>SWECKER: Well, I think particularly Matt is pretty cunning and pretty intelligent. But I don't see that. I really don't see that happening. I think they had a rare opportunity; they have a rare access, as Bernie points out. I don't know how it happened but they were managed to socially engineered this person, that manipulate this person. And I just don't think they threw out. There's a read hearing. She was too good an opportunity to get out.</s>LEMON: Chris, did you say that you think Governor Cuomo made a key mistake from the start? Chris? OK. He can't hear us. He -- do you add -- I don't know if that's true that socially that the governor made a key mistake from the...</s>KERIK: I do. Personally I do. You know, pretty much stomped all over the crime. It's a crime scene. It's a crime scene and I think he shouldn't have been there in the first place. You know, I understand what he was trying to do bring attention to it. Lead, you know, from the front, but it was a crime scene and I think it was the wrong time.</s>LEMON: Why in this plot would Joyce Mitchell, and you can just asking here this hypothetical. Why would he want her husband dead? Why would she be involved in this plot?</s>KERIK: You know, this is a -- this a woman that was looking for attention. I don't know much about her rather than what I've read, who knows? You know, we're only speculating and I think and I have to agree with some of the staff Chris said so.</s>LEMON: Because they'll be holding out of head do you think?</s>KERIK: The government?</s>LEMON: No. That the, the prisoners holding to her, we're going to kill your husband.</s>KERIK: They could -- you know what, you don't know. This -- the one thing Chris said it's very true. These guys were convicts, you know, they could have, you know, manipulated her into doing almost anything, which they did.</s>LEMON: Yes. Chris, I understand that you can hear us now. Chris, you have said that you believe that the governor made a key mistake from the start. What is that?</s>SWECKER: Well, I just don't think you show your cards the way he in the very beginning where he stumble around talking about...</s>LEMON: You're talking about Governor Cuomo, by the way.</s>SWECKER: ... inside suspects. Yes.</s>LEMON: Yes.</s>SWECKER: Exactly. I mean, I just don't think you throw your cards on the table like that so openly and talk about having an inside suspect inside the prison. Because there are confederates outside, you've just tipped them off immediately. And if in fact, they were surprised that she wasn't there, then they might have tried to get in touch with her. And they could have used her as sort of a way to bring them in.</s>LEMON: When a case...</s>SWECKER: There were lots of possibilities there.</s>LEMON: ... when a case has gone cold, Chris, what can investigators do to try to generate more leads now. Because we've been, look, we've been watching, Randi, has been reporting there. She says the check points were going away. They put these cameras in the woods with the rain as preventing them from really doing it and motion detectors from really doing anything. So, what can they do now to generate some leads and interest in this?</s>SWECKER: You know, we ran across this in the Rudolph manhunt. It's first the manhunt with the fugitive investigation running in the background. At some point, resources just don't permit you to use that kind of manpower on a continuous basis to become more of a fugitive investigation. And you try to generate leads from associates from everywhere they've ever been, their phone calls, their phone traffic inside the prison, their social, if you will, just trying to set up traps and tripwires everywhere you can.</s>LEMON: All right. Thank you. I appreciate both of you joining us this evening. Good information. Up next, Rachel Dolezal's statement that she identifies as a black woman. I'm going to get reaction from her parents who feel their daughter needs a reality check. And is Rachel Dolezal appropriating black culture? And if so, is that necessarily wrong?