On Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead, Two Others Still Missing
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, the search goes on. Three American men stranded on Oregon`s Mt. Hood, last known alive inside a cave hollowed out of ice and snow. Wind, sleet at 100 MPH. Within the last 24 hours, amid a raging snowstorm, one climber, 48-year-old Kelly James, found dead. Two others still missing. Tonight: What are the legal implications of the rescue? And get out the handcuffs! Imagine Mom drunk at 1:00 PM on a school day, people. A 12-year-old boy wrestles his own mom to stop her driving drunk after she tries to physically force her son into the car.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yesterday was very disappointing. I mean, the whole idea of somebody being able to survive in a snow cave is what`s been keeping them going all this time.</s>FRANK JAMES, KELLY JAMES`S BROTHER: They did not provide me with a positive identification, but they did provide me with a ring with my brother`s initials on it, which has led me and our family to conclude that the climber found in the cave yesterday was my brother, Kelly.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We failed them</s>JAMES: Kelly always told us that he felt closest to God when he was on the mountain. He lifted off that mountain from a place that he loved and doing something that he loved very, very much.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mountain is still giving us clues, whether we see a series of footprints over a stretch of a number of feet or a number of meters, and that helps us to narrow and focus our search. But as we saw yesterday, we got very close. We narrowed down a great deal of information, and we`re going to continue to do that until we can find these missing climbers.</s>GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, one body down off Mt. Hood, two still missing, two American men stranded on treacherous Mt. Hood -- wind, snow and sleet at 100 MPH. Out to reporter with KPTV, Chad Carter. Chad, what`s the latest?</s>CHAD CARTER, KPTV: Well, just about 45 minutes ago, we heard from the Hood River County sheriff that, in fact, Kelly James`s body had been brought off the mountain via helicopter and landed somewhere in Hood River County. The body was not brought here to the airport where the media is stationed. But for the time being, we are confirming that the body is down. The sheriff also saying that there was some obvious signs of injury to Mr. James`s body, including most likely a broken arm. But a medical examiner will have to approve that and say whether that is, indeed, one of the reasons, but a lot of the speculation of why the two other climbers, Brian Hall and Jerry Nikko Cooke, left Kelly James on that mountain. The sheriff saying tonight it could very well have been why, because of that broken arm.</s>GRACE: How was he identified?</s>CARTER: Well, as you heard in the opening, Frank James, Kelly`s brother, announced this morning at a press conference about the ring that had Kelly James`s initials in it, and it was widely speculated throughout most of the overnight that it, in fact, was Kelly James, the sheriff coming out and making a very brief statement, saying that they identified him due to markings on his body. He listed off tattoos, the ring, and then visual verification of the body. So that`s pretty much how it was. It was a very short press conference, very brief, but the sheriff confirming for us tonight that, in fact, it was 48-year-old Kelly James.</s>GRACE: With us, KPTV reporter from Hood River, Oregon, Chad Carter. Is there any way to determine how long he had been dead?</s>CARTER: You know, so far, they have not released that. We have heard that the body was frozen solid when rescuers came across it yesterday in that snow cave. But until an autopsy is done and a medical examiner can release his report, right now, it`s just pure speculation that it probably happened a couple days ago, before rescuers got there. And so we`re waiting for word on that, but so far, no official announcement on how long he had been there.</s>GRACE: Is there a legal duty to rescue? Do the other two climbers have any legal liability for leaving James behind? Are they still alive? Can they be rescued? So many questions tonight. Take a listen to what police had to say.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a result of another heroic effort by our search and rescue mountaineers, pilots involved, the Air Guard, we have recovered the body of Kelly James from the summit of Mt. Hood this afternoon. We were able to make that identification by jewelry, scars, tattoos, and visual identification positively here this afternoon. One of the questions that we`ve all been asking ourselves is why was Kelly James left back up on the mountain? And it appears that one of the reasons was probably because there was an obvious arm injury on him. And we`re going to follow up on that, and that is through the Hood River County medical examiner`s office. But Kelly James is off the mountain.</s>JAMES: They did not provide me with a positive identification, but they did provide me with a number of details about the climber that was found in the cave. In particular, they identified a ring with my brother`s initials on it, which has lead me and our family to conclude that the climber found in the cave yesterday was my brother -- my brother, Kelly.</s>GRACE: Out to Kimberley Wilson, a reporter with "The Oregonian." Kimberley, what are the clues the other two climbers left behind?</s>KIMBERLEY WILSON, "THE OREGONIAN": Well, what they found on the mountain were pieces of climbing equipment, including half of a sleeping pad, a coil of rope, a single glove, rope that was left in an anchor that one of the climbers may have been hooked onto at some point, and they left the hook that attaches to their gear. Those are the items that were found at the first cave that was located. I`m not exactly sure what was found inside the second cave.</s>GRACE: To Chad Carter with KPTV. Do we know what was in the second cave, if anything?</s>CARTER: Well, in fact, what we heard today from the sheriff is -- he kind of had an impromptu sit-down press conference with a big topographical map. And he said the second cave was actually found first, and then that lead them to the first cave that the three rescuers -- excuse me -- the three climbers had built, basically saying crews kind of looked around and searched for clues, spotted a rock a little bit off in the distance, and thought to themselves, Hey, if I was going to build a cave, that`s where I would go. Sure enough, that`s where they went. That`s where they found the body of Kelly James. But other than what we just heard, we have not heard of much else as far as any clues left behind by any of the other two climbers, especially out of the rescue attempts today.</s>GRACE: Joining us now is Dr. Christopher Van Tilburg, not only a doctor, but a rescue searcher. He was there at the base of Mt. Hood when Kelly James`s body was found. Dr. Van Tilburg, thank you for being with us. Describe what happened today.</s>DR. CHRISTOPHER VAN TILBURG, SEARCHER: Well, thanks for having me. Today, they continued to search the air and I think somewhat on ground. And they also had the separate task of bringing the body down today.</s>GRACE: And how did they transport the body down, Doctor?</s>VAN TILBURG: I believe -- I`m not exactly sure. I was at work all day, but I believe they brought a Black Hawk in, or that was originally the plan, to bring a Black Hawk in and hoist the body off, I believe.</s>GRACE: Is that right, Art Harris?</s>VAN TILBURG: Pardon me?</s>ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: That`s right. They came down in a helicopter, Nancy, after they found him in that second cave. You know, they`re now going to try to determine, you know, anything they can from possibly an autopsy that might give them a clue to what may have happened.</s>GRACE: Out to Greg Davenport, survival expert and adventure traveler. Greg, I understand that rope was left behind in the shape of a Y. Explain.</s>GREG DAVENPORT, SURVIVAL EXPERT, ADVENTURE TRAVELER: Well, what I can envision there is they were actually setting up two anchors in order to lower something down. I can`t imagine any other reason for doing that. A Y, as far as a signal goes, is to answer a question, usually simplifying -- or signifying a yes answer. Other than anchors, I just can`t imagine why they would have done that.</s>GRACE: Out to the lines. Alice in Texas. Hi, Alice.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?.</s>GRACE: I`m good, dear.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not that I don`t want these people to be found, and I feel for their families, but I just wondered who is footing the bill for all of this equipment?</s>GRACE: Excellent question. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Joe Lawless, a veteran trial lawyer out of the Philadelphia jurisdiction, and Greg McKeithen out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. To you, Joe Lawless. Who is paying the bill? A lot of people have been asking that question.</s>JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, most of the mountain rescuers in Oregon are volunteers. They`re funded by corporate donations, by private financing. But you also have the involvement of the military, the National Guard, the people who are supplying helicopters. It`s coming, to a certain extent, out of the taxpayers` pocket. So it`s expensive, and it`s coming out of the pocket of you and</s>I.  GRACE: Well, I don`t really have a problem with that -- to you, Greg McKeithen -- do you?</s>GREG MCKEITHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think, Nancy, there is a degree that we must ask ourselves whether or not the people involved in these trips should perhaps put something forward towards a deposit, in the event that this type of thing happens. Keep in mind, it is not unknown that this type of thing very well could happen, such that you enter into a situation where you know that there is an inherent danger or risk at hand.</s>GRACE: Out to the lines. Jeff in Michigan. Hi, Jeff.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy.</s>GRACE: What`s your question, dear?</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I just want to say, your show is great. We watch it all the time, me and my Mom here.</s>GRACE: Thank you.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And do they have any idea about the weather forecast? You know, I mean, why would they go up there if there was going to be these storms that are coming?</s>GRACE: You know -- back out to Greg Davenport -- I`ve been wondering that, too, same thing as Jeff in Michigan. Greg, were they trying to prepare for another hike, another climb under similar circumstances?</s>DAVENPORT: You know, I really don`t know the answer to that. I do believe that they were pushing the limits and were trying to do something that had a certain inherent risk to it. And you know, adventure is not without risk and this climb was not without risk. And the weather changed. And they had an accident, which was unforeseen. And we`re now seeing the situation unfold for what it is.</s>GRACE: Out to Jacqui Jeras, CNN meteorologist. Jacqui, thank you for being with us tonight on the show. Jacqui, what was the forewarning? When they set out on this climb, what did they know about the upcoming weather conditions? What was the forecast? And what do we know now? What`s coming up over the next 48 hours?</s>JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, we knew a storm was coming, Nancy. My guess is that they probably thought they had enough time to go up and come down and be safe before the next storm arrived. They probably ran into a little bit of trouble, and then once the weather conditions got worse, certainly, that caused even more problems for them. I think the biggest trouble in the past week, trying to rescue or recover these people, has certainly been the big storm that blew through on Thursday. Now, in a way, it actually ended up helping us the last couple of days by clearing out the weather pattern. The last couple of days have just been beautiful for the rescue efforts, clear skies. We had three days in a row of beautiful weather like that, and that just does not happen very often in the Pacific Northwest this time of the year. Usually, we`ve got the conga line of storms that continue to pull in across the region. Now, we`ve got at least one more day, we think, of some beautiful conditions before the worst of the weather begins to pull in once again. We`ve got another storm system that`s lined up, that`s going to be pulling on through. I`m zooming into the area right now on our Google Earth animation, showing you the area of the snow caves on here. And they`re kind of on the protected side of the mountain. The storms will be coming in from the west.</s>GRACE: Can you show me...</s>JERAS: They were on the northeastern...</s>GRACE: ... Jacqui, where they were? Can you show me on that...</s>JERAS: ... see the text on there, right there, where it says the snow cave?</s>GRACE: Yes. Yes.</s>JERAS: That`s where they were. They were climbing down right on here. This is what we call Copper Spur. And actually, two hikers did lose their lives falling off that cliff there back in 1999, so there could have been some other complications as a result of that. Weather conditions we think, Nancy, are going be going downhill probably by Wednesday, maybe midday. You can see right now what we have going on is what we call a blocking pattern. Everything`s kind of going up and over the Pacific Northwest right now, keeping things clear and dry from them. But we`ve another storm in the Gulf of Alaska way up there, and that`s going to be riding on through, we think, midday Wednesday, bringing in more heavy snow. The winds are going to be picking up, 70 miles per hour possibly up at 11,000 feet. That is very extreme. That`s pushing hurricane-force winds there. There you can see the snow coming in. We`ll probably see 6 to 12 inches on Wednesday itself. Thursday, it will become more snow showers, but still...</s>GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait!</s>GRACE: You just -- you caught me on something. You said hurricane- force conditions? What did you mean by that?</s>JERAS: Well, 74 miles per hour, that`s a hurricane. And we`re looking at 70 mile-per-hour winds coming back in. Now, the Thursday storm, we had winds close to a Category Two, maybe Category Three storm.</s>GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Greg Davenport, survival expert, I know you`re hooked up. You can hear Jacqui, our CNN meteorologist.</s>DAVENPORT: Yes.</s>GRACE: Why would you go up the side of a mountain if you know you`re going to have hurricane gale winds?</s>DAVENPORT: I believe they thought they were going to get up that mountain and back down before that storm came in. You know, if they had checked the weather pattern, they had plenty of time to get up and down. And you know, once those winds come in, that is an issue. You`re absolutely correct. I mean, standing there in those -- that type of wind, you`re going to get hypothermic very quick. So you know, they were trying to do things to protect themselves once that happened. But I believe if there had not been an accident and an arm that had been broken or something along that lines, they...</s>GRACE: ... back down...</s>DAVENPORT: Yes.</s>GRACE: ... in time.</s>DAVENPORT: Yes.</s>GRACE: Chad Carter with KPTV -- Chad, what do we know that they were doing to try to protect themselves?</s>CARTER: Well, of course, we`ve been hearing about these snow caves quite frequently lately in the news. They basically were using the tools they had. We did hear today that quite possibly they used a shovel to build one of their snow caves, the sheriff saying just barely big enough to house all three of them. They were literally using everything they had on them and then any rock formation they could find on the mountain to kind of shelter them as best as it could and build a snow cave literally right around that to shelter themselves from those high winds.</s>GRACE: You know, I want to go back out to the lawyers, Greg McKeithen and Joe Lawless. The two of you seem to think that it`s some kind of a burden that we mount a rescue, and you`re trying to measure it in dollars and cents. What do you think, Mr. McKeithen, that the Congress is doing over there in Washington? You think they`re spending the money on something more important than this?</s>MCKEITHEN: Well, Nancy, I would hope not. I would...</s>GRACE: Well, they are. They`re spending it on boondoggles that we don`t even know about. We can`t even track all the millions they`re spending in D.C. And it sounds to me like you`re trying to complain a little bit about how much the rescue is going to cost.</s>MCKEITHEN: No, not at all. I think we have to account for the fact that funds will have to be expended here. And I think there is a degree, as I stated earlier, that when someone is in this situation, perhaps some measure should be taken to insure that the people involved have accountability.</s>GRACE: Well, you know, he`s got a point, Joe. He`s got a point regarding the assumption of the risk. Weigh in.</s>LAWLESS: Well, Nancy, this is a sport, though, where when a rescue is needed, it`s not like sending out a lifeguard to pull somebody out of the ocean. A rescue operation of this size is massive. It`s risky. The cost in terms of human risk and the economics of it are very substantial. And this is something people are doing voluntarily for fun.</s>JAMES: This is a difficult day for all three families. We`re persuaded that Kelly has been found, but I feel that I have two other brothers still on the mountain.</s>GRACE: Three men went up treacherous Mt. Hood. So far, one has been found but not rescued. It was a recovery of his body. This brave climber, we believe, suffered from a broken arm and ultimately perished of hypothermia. Back out to Chad Carter with KPTV. What are the conditions tonight?</s>CARTER: Well, right now, it`s actually, all things considering, quite balmy, about approximately 25 degrees or so. It is still cold, but we are considerably lower than where they might be up there on Mt. Hood. I was at about the 4,500-foot level early this morning, where we saw temperatures hovering right around 12 degrees. We are seeing favorable weather conditions right now just in the sheer fact that we`re not seeing much wind and we aren`t seeing much rain or snow, but we are still seeing those brutally cold temperatures, especially the higher you get. So we are holding out for one more nice day tomorrow. Temperatures, again, will probably be a little bit cool. But as far as severe weather goes, we won`t be seeing that until later on, when Jacqui says that storm might roll in Wednesday or so.</s>GRACE: And Chad, what is the plan for tomorrow?</s>CARTER: Well, right now, they are focussing on the north face, the Eliot Glacier that they say that`s where they`re going to focus the majority of their efforts. They have been scouring...</s>GRACE: Chad? Chad? Chad?</s>CARTER: Yes?</s>GRACE: Do they believe the other two are alive?</s>CARTER: Well, that`s a tricky question this evening, Nancy, because the sheriff is saying that he`s hoping, but he`s come to terms with the understanding that this might be something they have to go up and find the same conditions as Kelly James. But they are certainly still considering this a rescue attempt, not a recovery.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We failed them. We literally failed them. But you know, we tried our best. I know that. We had the best people in the best places. But there is still a chance because of that issue right there, and we`re going to keep going to look for them.</s>GRACE: Are two American men still alive on treacherous Mt. Hood? Out to Kimberley Wilson with "The Oregonian." Do you know where Kelly James`s body is now?</s>WILSON: It`s been taken to a local funeral home here in Hood River, where a detective from the local sheriff`s office, along with a medical examiner, were to determine what the causes of the death were and begin sort of the police investigation into what`s occurred.</s>GRACE: You know, I want to go to Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, also a fed with the FBI. Mike, the locator -- would it have worked under these conditions?</s>MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, from my experience as a volunteer firefighter and rescuer, and having been in some conditions like this, a personal locator beacon would definitely have been a great help. And talking to the rescuers there and also the rescuers in Colorado, a locator beacon like this, with a GPS, they say it probably would have taken the search out of the search and rescue, especially in this particular case. It also bothers me, Nancy that, the two ice axes that were left behind -- these were something that you would want either going up or coming down a mountain, especially on a north face.</s>MICHAELA COOKE, WIFE OF NIKKO COOKE: We mourn the loss of Kelly and stand united here with the James family. We extend our heartfelt sympathy to Kelly`s children, wife, brother, mother, friends, and extended family, who we have all come to know and love as our own. Kelly, Brian and Nikko shared a passion and reverence for climbing, and the bond forged between them will last throughout eternity. We hold out hope today for Brian and Nikko`s safe return.</s>GRACE: That is Michaela, the wife of Nikko Cooke. He is still missing somewhere on Oregon`s Mt. Hood. I want to go back out to Greg Davenport. It appears as if they were all three together in one ice cave on Thursday and Friday and at some juncture, on Saturday we believe, two of them left. Why?</s>DAVENPORT: Well, the only reason that I can see where they would have left would it be if rescue did not appear imminent or there was some life- threatening situation that was occurring, and they must have felt that way. They must have felt that, in order to effect their rescue, they had to travel out and make it happen.</s>GRACE: Out to the lines. Norma in Georgia, hi, Norma.</s>CALLER: Hi, how are you?</s>GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?</s>CALLER: Have they used the infrared to locate these climbers? And, if so, can the infrared see through the snow?</s>GRACE: Excellent question, Norma. What about it, Art Harris?</s>HARRIS: Nancy, it can pick up a heat signature depending on the time of day. The colder, the tougher it is. So they`ve tried it. But you`ve got to remember: The wind was so, so hard and the snow was coming down -- they got 10 feet of snow -- it would cover up any tracks, too. So the clues were tough to find.</s>GRACE: It is also my understanding, speaking of how much snow there was, out to Kimberley Wilson with the "Oregonian," that they were using very long poles and sticking them into the mountain to try to search that way. Is that correct?</s>WILSON: Yes, that technique is used when you have heavy snows like this that fell earlier in the week and there`s high avalanche danger.</s>GRACE: And back to you, Mike Brooks, speaking of the heat-seeking infrared, would that have worked under these conditions?</s>BROOKS: Well, after with the thick snow, Nancy, it`s very, very hard to get the infrared to see through that snow. And what they were doing today, what their main thing to do today was taking video and still pictures, and they`re going to go back tonight, and they`re going to take a look at all of them to see if there`s any anomalies that they see that might be another snow cave. But, again, 10 feet of snow, avalanche conditions up there. You also have the whipping winds, Nancy, that will also move snow from one face to another. And, you know, Sheriff Wampler said today that they`re looking at possibly doing some avalanche-type searching in the future. But, again, that also puts the rescuers at great risk, especially when you`re at the base of some of the head walls where -- from the snow overhead can also form an avalanche and come down on top of these rescuers. And it takes an extremely coordinated effort, using five- and six-foot poles in a very coordinated team effort, going through the snow.</s>GRACE: We`re showing right now -- and this was attempted in 2002, Mike Brooks.</s>BROOKS: Right.</s>GRACE: And we saw the helicopter just go down the side of the mountain.</s>BROOKS: Exactly. And that was -- again, it`s very, very tough conditions, especially with the way the winds whip around the different faces. And it`s really extremely just unbelievable. You know, you talk about the rescuers, Nancy. And people have asked, well, what about the rescuers? This takes not only a physical toll, but an emotional toll on the rescuers.</s>GRACE: Well, speaking of the rescuers, Mike Brooks, I`m glad you brought that up. Let`s go back to the lawyers, Greg McKeithen (ph) and Joe Lawless. Out you to Joe Lawless, we saw that very disturbing 2002 video with the rescue helicopter plummeting down the side of the mountain. If one of the rescuers are hurt or killed during the rescue, legal avenues?</s>LAWLESS: Nancy, that`s one of the problems talking about those incidents in the context of this case right now. Obviously, the only focus should be on trying to rescue these men while they`re still on the mountain. But looking forward, that`s another question of: Who bears the cost of that? Portland Mountain Rescue may have an umbrella insurance policy. The military may have some sort coverage. But you`re talking about a tremendous cost associated with what is essentially a recreational activity.</s>GRACE: Right.</s>LAWLESS: And moving forward, you really have to ask yourself: Who is going to bear the cost for this? Because the funds that are there and that are being expended -- which right now you don`t question, because you`re trying to save a life -- but moving forward, that`s money that could be used for a lot of other things. And, essentially, what you`re doing is trying to save people who were out engaging in a recreational activity.</s>GRACE: Let me go to the lines. Jean in Indiana, hi, Jean.</s>CALLER: Hi, Nancy, how are you?</s>GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?</s>CALLER: I was wondering, if those two climbers were still alive, wouldn`t they be able to hear the helicopters up there searching for them?</s>GRACE: Excellent question. Let`s go to forensic pathologist Dr. Daniel Spitz. Dr. Spitz, talk to us tonight, explain to us -- we`re just trial lawyers -- what happens in the throes of hypothermia? Would they be able to hear the helicopters with this gale force? I mean, what effect does hypothermia have on the body?</s>DANIEL SPITZ, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, if they`re in the extreme phases of hypothermia, they may be incoherent or even in the processes of dying. And they may be holed up in a snow cave and be unaware of their surroundings. Clearly, if that`s the case, then it`s a very grave situation, and the likelihood of them being rescued is essentially zero.</s>GRACE: What are the stages of hypothermia?</s>SPITZ: Well, the beginning phases of being just very, very cold is you get frostbite on the hands and feet. You begin to become, as the body temperature falls, you begin to have organ damage and organ dysfunction. You have neurologic changes, which is the sort of the explanation for that paradoxical undressing that we`ve talked about in the past. And as the body temperatures continues to fall, the organs begin to dysfunction, and ultimately heart rate changes and death occurs, so...</s>GRACE: What happens mentally?</s>SPITZ: Well, they become delirious, they become delusional, they make bad decisions. And clearly, if these people aren`t already deceased, they`re very, very in the midst of this very severe state.</s>GRACE: Out to the lines, Cathy in Florida, hi, Cathy.</s>CALLER: Yes, hi, Amazing Grace, how are you? Listen, my question is for Greg, Nancy. The rope that`s left on the snow in the shape of a "Y," that`s very visible. Was that done recently by them? Because it`s not completely covered with snow.</s>GRACE: Good question -- Greg Davenport?</s>DAVENPORT: That`s really hard to say. I mean, it could have been covered with snow. But the winds have been so high there, the winds could have also blown it off. I believe that was probably done during the descent, and it was not done recently.</s>GRACE: To Art Harris, we were asking earlier if they were taking on Mt. Hood under these conditions to train for something bigger or something else?</s>HARRIS: Yes, Kelly James, he had such a passion for climbing, as his friend`s wife just said, that he was always training for another mountain. He had climbed Mt. Hood. He`d climbed Mt. Rainier. He`d climbed peaks in Europe and South America, the Andes. And this was supposed to be quick up, quick down, light and fast, to get them in shape for the next adventure. They had talked about Everest.</s>GRACE: And to Dr. Robi Ludwig, I mean, to many of us, the thought of going up Mt. Hood under these conditions just is not even a possibility.</s>DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right, most people would not engage in this. But for these types of guys, they pursue excitement/danger. And in some cases, it can really alter your judgment, where you deny some of the risks that are possibilities out there. And these men also had successfully done many climbs before and came out OK. So they...</s>GRACE: Was it so much you go into some sort of denial?</s>LUDWIG: Yes, I think it`s the pursuit of what feels good in the moment. And there`s that excitement and aliveness that`s very hard to pass up. If this is your passion, then you would have a tendency to deny some of the dangers.</s>GRACE: Very quickly to tonight`s holiday reader. Well, unlike Seattle, airports throughout the Hawaiian Islands say no problem to Christmas trees and menorahs, a first for Hawaii`s major islands. Each airport with menorahs six feet tall alongside the Christmas tree. Also tonight, for the second year in a row, the home of Colorado State University, Fort Collins, Colorado, refuses to display a menorah in the town square. Why, people?</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We asked the 12-year-old boy, why was he having an altercation with his mother? And he said that he knew she had been drinking. He did not want to get in the vehicle with her.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Good for him. That`s what police are saying tonight about Rosanna Dudley`s son. They say the 12-year-old made the right decision.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very responsible, very brave decision he made. But on behalf of the mother, very irresponsible, trying to get her 12-year- old son to drive off while she was under the influence.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was 2:00 Wednesday afternoon in the parking lot of this apartment complex on First Street in Mesa, where a man noticed a boy struggling with his mother. That man called police.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The officer automatically smelled the strong odor of alcoholic beverage coming from her breath, also noticed her eyes were bloodshot and watery.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to court documents, Dudley, a woman who`s been arrested for a previous DUI and prostitution, told the officer she had only one malt liquor beer. Police think she had a whole lot more.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MALE: During the course of the field sobriety test, the officer had to terminate them, because basically she was stumbling all over herself. He was scared she was going to fall over and hurt herself.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police arrested Dudley. Tonight, she`s facing aggravated DUI charges.</s>GRACE: Yes, Mommy`s got a big Cobra in her hand, a big malt liquor. Art Harris, what the hay is going on?</s>HARRIS: Nancy, she said she`d only had one malt liquor. That`s what she told the cops.</s>GRACE: Have you seen how big those things are?</s>HARRIS: They`re pretty big, and we know they`re pretty potent, too. But obviously she`d had a lot more than that, and it turned out in the field sobriety test that she was not very functional. Her boy had told the cop he smelled alcohol on her breath and he would not get in the car with his mother, and, you know, she is now in the Maricopa County jail without bond.</s>GRACE: Good, right where she needs to be. Out to the public information officer with Mesa police, Sergeant Chuck Trapani. Sergeant, thank you for being with us. How did you guys find out about the little boy wrestling with his mom?</s>SGT. CHUCK TRAPANI, MESA POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, actually, we got a call from a resident of that apartment complex. He saw the mother and son arguing and decided to call the police, help intervene to see what was actually going on between the mother and son.</s>GRACE: Do you know what her blood alcohol was?</s>TRAPANI: We haven`t got the results yet. We took a sample of her blood. She voluntarily gave us a sample of her blood, but the results haven`t come back from our crime lab yet.</s>GRACE: And that will be public when it is completed, correct?</s>TRAPANI: You bet.</s>GRACE: Now, she had a prior DUI, right?</s>TRAPANI: Right. She had a prior DUI arrest here in Mesa, and then I believe she had one out of the town of Goodyear here in Arizona, as well.</s>GRACE: Now, how many does it take? That`s three strikes. Doesn`t she have to do some hard jail time by now?</s>TRAPANI: Well, she was actually on probation for another crime in another city, but her license was revoked due to the prior DUI arrest, which she didn`t adhere to since, she was arrested again on Wednesday.</s>GRACE: Out to Sheryl McCollum, former director of Mothers Against Drunk Driving in Georgia. Sheryl, it`s great to see you again. You know, you and I have seen it all now, or at least we think we have, when it comes to drunk driving, but never have I seen a little boy, 12 years old -- I guess that`s a fifth grade -- having to wrestle Mommy with her malt liquor in the parking lot so Mommy won`t drive drunk.</s>SHERYL MCCOLLUM, FORMER DIRECTOR OF MADD: Absolutely, Nancy. We have seen it all. I have never been to any roadblock involving DUIs where somebody doesn`t say, "I just had one. I`ve only had one drink." And like, you know, she`s even said she had one malt liquor. Well, we all know that`s 40 ounces. She admitted to it. And now her son is having to stop her from committing the crime again, and very well could have saved his life and hers right here at the holidays where he`s supposed to be returned to her.</s>GRACE: Of course, what you were seeing on the left side of your screen are victims of drunk driving.</s>MCCOLLUM: Seventeen thousand a year, Nancy, 17,000 every year because somebody at 2:00 in the afternoon decides, "Yes, I can make it. Yes, I can drive. I`m going to do it anyway."</s>GRACE: To Gloria Allred, veteran trial lawyer and child advocate, Gloria, Mommy`s loaded at 1:00 p.m. What are we going to do?</s>GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, we`re going to commend the 12-year-old, and we should encourage other 12-year-olds to do likewise, if Mommy or Daddy or any guardian or foster parent is under the influence of alcohol or has been drinking and wants to drive. Now, here it`s particularly egregious, because apparently a condition of her prior probation, which apparently she was still on, was that she not consume any alcohol. So that would be whether or not she was driving. And apparently her license had been suspended or revoked. And also she was supposed to have some sort of interlocking device on her vehicle, which apparently was not on that vehicle, which would show whether or not she had consumed alcohol. So hats off to the 12-year-old.</s>GRACE: Art, what are we missing?</s>HARRIS: Well, we`re missing that this was a possibly rough time of year for the mother. She`d been in alcohol and drug rehab. And, you know, Christmas is never a good time.</s>GRACE: Rough time of the year for the mother?</s>HARRIS: Well, no, for anyone who is recovering...</s>GRACE: Do you think it was better if they had a head-on collision and killed people?</s>HARRIS: No, no, look, I`m not making excuses for her, but this is a sad situation.</s>GRACE: ... and that`s the first thing you say, it`s a rough time of the year, it`s the holidays?</s>HARRIS: No, it`s a great thing that he wouldn`t get in that car and that she`s not driving, but she needs help, obviously.</s>GRACE: Where is the boy now?</s>HARRIS: Obviously she needs help, Nancy.</s>GRACE: She needs jail time, too. Where is the boy tonight?</s>HARRIS: The boy is with the county. The boy is in custody of the foster...</s>GRACE: Oh, man. So this little boy, Sergeant -- and I`m not saying you weren`t right to do it -- but this 12-year-old now is in foster care for Christmas?</s>TRAPANI: Child protective services, correct.</s>GRACE: You know what? Robi, I don`t even know what to say to that. The little boy, the 12-year-old, has to wrestle his mom, drunk out in the parking lot, and what does he get? He gets thrown into like a foster care situation for Christmas.</s>LUDWIG: Oh, it`s so sad.</s>GRACE: What else can they do?</s>LUDWIG: Right. I mean, they need to protect this child. And right now, the son was acting like the parent. He was parentified. And the mother is not in a position to take care of herself or this son, so hopefully he can be in a safe place and perhaps get some nurturers in his life that can be supportive and strong for him, until her mother gets on her feet again.</s>GRACE: And to Mike Brooks, explain interlock. What is it?</s>BROOKS: Well, apparently, Nancy, it`s a little device a little bit larger than a cell phone that`s hooked into your ignition. And you`re supposed to blow into this device before you`re able to start the car. And if you haven`t had anything to drink and you are able to start your car, it will also test you while the engine is still running at different intervals. Now, she did not have one on this particular car. There are six certified installers in the state of Arizona that will install one on a car. And you have to cover the cost of the installation and the device yourself, if the court so rules it. And the reason they were able to tell this, if they ran her name over the computer and also her license, it`s marked on there that she is supposed to have one of these ignition interlock devices on her car.</s>GRACE: Right. We`re showing right now where the states are where interlocks are not mandatory. Out to Gloria Allred, when I think of the little boy in foster care over the Christmas holiday, what that child has been through, wasn`t he living with a grandmother prior to this? Why did they give him back to the mom?</s>ALLRED: Well, it may be that she had completed her substance abuse program and had him over the holidays. In any event...</s>GRACE: It`s just like she gets a gold star. She finishes her substance abuse program, so she gets the kid back?</s>ALLRED: Well, maybe it was temporarily. But I`m concerned about what message this sends to the child. Is the child going to be sorry that he wouldn`t get in the car with his mom, because now he`s in foster care? I hope not. I hope the child knows that he did the right thing.</s>UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to court documents, Dudley, a woman who`s been arrested for previous DUI and prostitution, told the officer she had only one malt liquor beer. Police think she had a whole lot more. Police arrested Dudley. Tonight, she`s facing aggravated DUI charges.</s>GRACE: Very quickly out to the lines. Jamie in Colorado, hi, Jamie.</s>CALLER: Hi, Nancy. You are amazing, and you`re a hero and a mentor.</s>GRACE: Thank you.</s>CALLER: My question is, she wasn`t in the vehicle, and she was struggling with her son. Why wasn`t she charged with aggravated child abuse as opposed to aggravated DUI?</s>GRACE: To Sheryl McCollum, former director of Mothers Against Drunk Driving in Georgia, Sheryl, I imagine that just struggling with him wasn`t enough for an aggravated battery. One thing that people overlook is how serious this epidemic is in our country. Your mom was actually hit by a drunk driver.</s>MCCOLLUM: Absolutely. And to go back to your caller, Nancy, it was probably not -- it was more child endangerment probably, but that`s not going to be your felony. What they`re going to look at is that she has done this again. And like with my mother, the person that hit my mother, this was not his first time to this rodeo. Driving drunk is how he freaking got around. And it wasn`t until he hit my mother head on that somebody said, "Hey, maybe this person needs some jail time." And when Ms. Dudley -- my hope for her is that this is her wakeup call that her baby saved potentially her life and his and that she go back to treatment. Ms. Dudley, you did it once. You can complete it again. And you can get that apartment back and get him back.</s>GRACE: And, Robi Ludwig, will this make the child feel guilty about the reporting?</s>LUDWIG: I hope not. But children do want to be raised by their own parents, and they want their parents to be healthy, so hopefully that will happen for the two of them.</s>GRACE: Court date, Art?</s>HARRIS: December 20th we will see Ms. Dudley in court on her probation violation.</s>GRACE: Let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant Lucas White, just 28, Moses Lake, Washington, killed, Iraq. Also served in Afghanistan, a member of the Confederated Tribes of the Umatilla Indiana Reservation, he dreamed of serving since childhood. Sergeant Lucas White, American hero. A special good night to friends of the show, Rob Fortine (ph). And all the way from Tokyo, his brother, Esteban. NANCY GRACE signing off. See you tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp. And until then, good night, friend. END