Gun-Toting Neighbor; America Votes 2008: Who's Ahead
JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: In a moment, we will explore the legal ins and outs of deadly force with CNN's Jeffrey Toobin. Before we do, though, Gary Tuchman sets the scene.</s>GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Joe Horn saw it right outside his window.</s>OPERATOR: Pasadena 911. What is your emergency?</s>HORN: Burglars are breaking into a house next door.</s>TUCHMAN: A burglary at his next-door neighbor's house in the Houston suburb of Pasadena. It was 2:00 in the afternoon.</s>HORN: I have got a shotgun. Do you want me to stop them? 911</s>OPERATOR: Nope, don't do that. Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?</s>TUCHMAN: Three minutes into the call, and the 61-year-old was getting increasingly upset as he watched the two men.</s>HORN: I'm not going to let them get away with it. I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK? 911</s>OPERATOR: No.</s>HORN: I'm going to shoot. I'm going to shoot.</s>TUCHMAN: On September 1, Texas strengthened a law giving civil immunity to people who defend themselves with deadly force, not only in their homes, but in their cars and workplaces. But this was a neighbor's house, and the 911 operator warned Horn 13 times during the call to stay inside his home.</s>HORN: OK. He's coming out the window right now. I got to go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window.</s>OPERATOR: No, don't. Don't go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?</s>OPERATOR: Don't go outside.</s>HORN: I ain't going to let them get away with this</s>OPERATOR: Don't go outside the house.</s>HORN: I'm doing it. 911</s>OPERATOR: OK? Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.</s>HORN: I'm sorry. This ain't right, buddy. 911</s>OPERATOR: You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think.</s>HORN: You want to make a bet? I'm going to kill them. 911</s>OPERATOR: OK? Stay in the house.</s>TUCHMAN: Joe Horn would have won that bet.</s>OPERATOR: I don't want you going outside, Mr. Horn.</s>HORN: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going. 911</s>OPERATOR: Don't go outside.</s>HORN: Move, you're dead.</s>TUCHMAN: Miguel Antonio Dejesus and Diego Ortiz, two men who had previous minor scrapes with the law, were killed.</s>CAPTAIN BUD CORBETT, PASADENA POLICE DEPARTMENT: One of the two suspects -- at least one of the two -- was carrying some property which was dropped in the front yard of the residence that -- that was being burglarized.</s>TUCHMAN: As for Joe Horn, he said in a written statement the shooting is weighing heavily on him. A grand jury will now decide if he should be charged with a crime. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Atlanta.</s>KING: Joining me now, Jeffrey Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst and a former federal prosecutor. Jeff, let's start from the beginning. This is fascinating stuff, when you listen to these audio recordings. But Joe Horn has not been charged. Do you think he will be? And, if so, does he have a defense?</s>JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, on the letter of the law, it sure looks like he's guilty of probably something, and perhaps even just murder, because think about what he did. He had -- warned repeatedly not to use his -- not to go out and use his gun. He's told that these there -- there are non-uniform, there are plainclothes officers in the area. And he takes a shotgun out there, which sprays, you know, shot all over the place. I mean, he engaged in incredibly dangerous behavior, and he killed two people. But, you know, I hate to engage in regional profiling, but this is Texas. And you can see, a lot of people are going to be sympathetic to him.</s>KING: You mentioned, this is Texas. It is an American tradition, but certainly a frontier tradition, you have the right to protect your own property. Have you ever heard of a right to protect your neighbor's property?</s>TOOBIN: I never have, but this is why there are grand juries, because grand juries can decide, under all the circumstances, that there's not a -- there's no right to -- that -- that -- that there's no case to be made here. Certainly, on the facts of these cases, this does not appear to be anything like self-defense, which Texas law and every state's law allows. But, again, the grand jury made say, hey, let him go.</s>KING: You mentioned the -- the operator at the top. The operator was one cool customer.</s>TOOBIN: Right.</s>KING: He repeatedly said, don't go out is there, sir, repeatedly said, there are police officers out there, repeatedly said, don't get your gun. Do not do it. If this case were to go to trial, how much of a problem would that be, the cool and repetitive nature of the warnings?</s>TOOBIN: You know, we -- we often, in the press, sometimes criticize 911 operators. But, boy, I have to say, I was so impressed by -- by this operator here. I think it's a big problem for Joe Horn, because this operator is giving precisely the rational, intelligent advice that you would hope someone like this would give.</s>KING: And let's listen to a little bit more of it here. In another part of that call, Joe Horn actually references a new law on the books in Texas that he thinks gives him the legal right to get that gun and go outside. Let's listen.</s>HORN: OK, but I have a right to protect myself, too, sir. 911</s>OPERATOR: Yes, you do.</s>HORN: And you understand that.</s>HORN: And the laws have been changed in this country since September the 1st. And you know it and I know it. 911</s>OPERATOR: I understand that.</s>HORN: I have a right to protect myself.</s>KING: "You know it and I know it." Jeff, he's actually talking about the so-called castle doctrine. That was a state law, not a national law. But it went into effect in Texas on September 1. Could Joe Horn use this in his defense?</s>TOOBIN: I don't think so, because it refers to a property owner. It refers to self-defense on your property, your own castle. That's why they call it the castle law. This is not an attack on his -- on his property. This is an attack on his next-door neighbor's property.</s>KING: And we talked about the operator's demeanor on that call. You just heard Joe Horn there. His attorney has suggested his client was afraid for his safety. Do you get that sense from listening to the call? And, even if so, is that a defense?</s>TOOBIN: No. I mean, I read the full transcript, heard this call. He does not appear to be someone who's in a panic. It's a very cool and rather chilling determination to go out and use his gun, against the instructions of the 911 operator.</s>KING: This is a fascinating episode, a potential legal case. We will keep track of it. Jeffrey Toobin, thanks very much.</s>TOOBIN: OK, John.</s>KING: OK, holiday travel now, and you might have guessed it's already a big mess. Passengers got stuck today in Dallas when two of DFW Airports three control towers -- yes, it's that big -- when two towers had a major communications meltdown. That sent a ripple through the system, as did fog in Atlanta, and clouds at O'Hare, and heavy winds in New York. Think it can only get worse by Turkey Day? Let's get the lowdown now from CNN's Chad Myers with, as they say on the radio, traffic and weather together. Air traffic, that is. Hey, Chad.</s>CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Ah yes. Hey, John. I'm afraid it is going to get worse. Look at all the planes that are still in the sky right now. I have a computer that counts them for me: 4,560 planes still in the air, over 4,000 people -- 4,000 planes still not landing yet because they got late starts, two-hour delays in Newark, two-hour delays in La Guardia almost all day long. As you said, Dallas was down. O'Hare was down about two hours late all day long. So, these planes are now finally in the air, but they are going to be at their destination much later than they had hoped for. Big storm coming through Seattle and a windy day and a snowy day across the passes into Idaho as well, into Montana. Move you ahead to Wednesday, because this is the biggest driving day. Wednesday is the largest day where people are going to be on the road. Today, a lot of people were flying, tomorrow, too. But, on Wednesday, you get off work, and you drive to grandma's House. That's exactly what's going to go on. A lot of cold air through the Plains and a lot of rain from Chicago down through and into the Deep South. Now, if you are going and staying the weekend, you need to know how things are going to change. Today, in New York City, temperatures were up to almost 60 degrees, by the weekend, down into the 30s. That same cold air is going to be in Atlanta, tomorrow almost 75, and, by Saturday, 32. So, you're going to have to pack a couple sets of clothes, some warm clothes and also, obviously, some cooler clothes. In Phoenix today, it was 88. By Saturday morning, it will be 46. And then for Denver, you guys are going to get snow as well. Today, in Denver, it was 76. Pueblo, Colorado, was 82 degrees today, and, on Friday morning, they will be below 20. Even Denver up to 76 today, and down to 20 by Thursday. So, cold air is coming in. It's the big cold front that will change your forecast, and it may, John, change your drive home, rather than your drive there. It looks like we will probably get everybody where they need to be by Wednesday and Thursday, but coming home Saturday and Sunday could be a trick.</s>KING: You are the great fount of optimism. When you say Saturday and Sunday, the temperatures are going down.</s>MYERS: Yes.</s>KING: Are you expecting the hazardous stuff -- snow, sleet, messy stuff, Saturday and Sunday, or just cold and crowd?</s>MYERS: Without a question, there will be snow across the Great Lakes, lake-effect snows, and a fairly major storm system coming out of the Great Lakes and coming out of the Gulf of Mexico running up the East Coast just to spoil more plans.</s>MYERS: Don't shoot the messenger, John.</s>KING: You cook a mean turkey, right?</s>MYERS: I do. And I have 17 people coming to dinner.</s>KING: If you're stuck in Atlanta, go to Chad's. Chad Myers, thanks so much. Take care, Chad.</s>MYERS: All right. You bet.</s>KING: Up next: new developments on the campaign trail. Do voters know something the pundits don't? We will run some new numbers and see what they reveal about where the presidential race is going next. And later: a video that millions of people saw. We're using it as a jumping-off point into the world of autism.</s>AMANDA BAGGS, AUTISTIC (through translator): The way I naturally think and respond to things looks and feels so different from standard concepts or even visualization, that some people do not consider it thought at all. It is only when I type something in your language that you refer to me as having communication.</s>KING: A remarkable look inside the world of Amanda Baggs, and maybe someone close to you -- 360 tonight.