State Governors Want Tougher Border Control Laws
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.</s>DOBBS: In Broken Borders tonight, U.S. and Mexican governors meeting in New Mexico today pledge to coordinate their efforts to stop drug and human smugglers at the border. They also pleaded with the governments of both the United States and Mexico for help. Casey Wian reports from Santa Fe.</s>CASEY WIAN, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Governors of four U.S. and six Mexican states signing what they call an historic agreement to work together to make their borders more secure. Conference host Bill Richardson of New Mexico says the effort is needed because Washington, D.C., and Mexico City have failed to control the border.</s>RICHARDSON: We need to stand strong as border states. Sometimes when our federal governments don't act, it is important that border states work closely together.</s>WIAN: The agreement calls for state police on both sides of the border to work together to fight crime, such as drug smuggling and auto theft. State officers will conduct joint training exercises and coordinate radio communications. Governors admit it's only a first step, and they pleaded for more federal action.</s>GOV. RICK PERRY (D), TEXAS: I believe federal fishes must not only require stronger safety measures, but they must fund them, too.</s>WIAN: Mexican border governors gave mixed messages. Chihuahua Governor Martinez said fighting terrorism and securing the boarder are necessary for both nations, but Baja California's governors wants a more open border and expansion of</s>NAFTA. GOV. EUGENEO ELORDUY WALTHER, BAJA CALIFORNIA, MEXICO: There's a movie out which says the title in Spanish. I'll translate it for you. It says "One Day Without Mexicans," and it comes to show the great value of Mexicans and people of other countries, obviously, going to find a better quality of life.</s>WIAN: California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, facing a controversial decision on driver's licenses for illegal aliens in his state, failed to even mention immigration or border security. (on camera): Mexican President Vicente Fox gave a brief videotaped statement to the conference calling for safeguards for migrant workers and their families. But the Bush administration did not participate. Border governors say they expect little or no federal action on illegal immigration until after the U.S. presidential election. Casey Wian, CNN, Santa Fe, New Mexico.</s>DOBBS: My next guest, a featured speaker at the governors' border conference today in Santa Fe, Peter Andreas, says our border patrol policies have failed. He's assistant professor at Brown University, the author of "Border Games," and joins us tonight from Santa Fe. Good to have you with us.</s>PETER ANDREAS, BROWN UNIVERSITY: Thanks for having me.</s>DOBBS: The idea of border governor states, both Mexican and American, meeting to discuss these important issues, any prospect that anything substantive could be done?</s>ANDREAS: Well, understandably, these kind of events have high symbolic appeal and value. Good question: What's going to come out of it? I think what is new and novel is we historically think of border security issues as strictly a federal issue, and the border states now are seeming to be taking some initiative in terms of setting the agenda, creating more local level cross-border relations, and, in fact, let's say a natural disaster or terrorist incident happened, it would, in fact, be significantly local-level actors who have to deal with the mess.</s>DOBBS: But the mess is a million illegal aliens crossing our border every year, the mess is eight million to 12 million illegal aliens residing in this country, and the mess is an immigration policy that makes sense for anyone at all. What are we going to do about that?</s>ANDREAS: Well, that's the big question. It's certainly not a new question. People have to recognize that in terms of the border, the border has never been fully controlled, is not fully controlled now, and I would say it's unlikely to be fully controlled in the future. The first thing we have do is recognize that the border is not the source of the problem, probably not the source of the solution, and, realistically speaking, we have to lower our level of expectation of what -- how meaningful a deterrent the border can actually be, a 2,000-mile-long border policed by a Border Patrol agency which has more than doubled in the past decade, but which actually has not reduced the number of unauthorized entries across the border. So although it's politically...</s>DOBBS: Wait, wait, wait. Wait, Professor. I mean, if you're going to run all this together, let's start with a couple things. The Border Patrol is told that they can't apprehend, detain and deport illegal aliens, first of all, right now. Two, the number of Border Patrol agents across the northern and southern borders are pitifully small, they're overworked, overtaxed and given an impossible assignment. So let's go to the issue, as you said. What is the problem? The border's being crossed by people illegally into this country and being hired to do jobs in this country, right?</s>ANDREAS: Well, what's interesting is what you pointed out at the very end of your comment, which is they're being hired to do jobs illegally. What we have right now is essentially a situation of a kind of prohibitionist policy at the border and a laissez-faire policy in the workplace. In a sense, there's kind of -- this is getting back to my point about focusing on the border obsessively as the source of the problem when people simply wouldn't come...</s>DOBBS: Well, I'll be glad to focus on anything you want, Professor, but I want...</s>ANDREAS: I'm just saying...</s>DOBBS: ... to focus on the problem, and the problem is with people crossing our borders illegally.</s>ANDREAS: Right. The sheer number of people crossing our borders is economically driven. We have to, in other words, redefine this to some extent as a labor market issue, and there's obviously a very strong demand for this labor in the United States and a very strong supply side in Mexico.</s>DOBBS: Well, are you suggesting then, because there is an economic incentive for people to cross our borders illegally, it should not be a matter of border security, it should not be a matter of national interest or national referendum on important issues like immigration?</s>ANDREAS: Oh, all countries obviously should and do protect their borders. The question is: How much effort you put on that line in the sand to deal with the problems such as unauthorized migration? And I'm suggesting it's not a terribly efficient policy response, and it hasn't been, and it's unlikely to be in the future.</s>DOBBS: Well, let my say -- since you suggest the border isn't the problem, let me suggest to you what I -- is at least a concern, and that is that 300 million Americans, eight million to 12 million of them illegal, but about 300 million of us haven't made a decision about what is the direction of this country, what should be our immigration policies, what should this country look like, what rights should be guaranteed, how secure should our borders be. My guess is, Professor -- I'd love to hear your thoughts -- I believe that most Americans say they'd like to see that border fairly secure just because amongst a million illegal aliens being apprehended every year, they're afraid that perhaps maybe a couple of terrorists could make it as well.</s>ANDREAS: Well, the allure of fully securing the border is obviously a powerful one. We could build a 2,000-mile-wall. I believe Patrick Buchanan suggested this a number of years ago, and some have joked that, in fact, the high cost of that wall would be much cheaper because we would, in fact, probably use Mexican labor to build it. I just don't actually see that happening realistically in the near and medium future. Some...</s>DOBBS: Well, I've got to ask you this question. What do you see? I mean, you've got those governors from Mexico and the United States.</s>ANDREAS: Right.</s>DOBBS: What did you tell them?</s>ANDREAS: What did I tell them? I told them that...</s>DOBBS: Don't worry about it? I mean, what?</s>ANDREAS: Back to your question regarding the issue of terrorism coming up, what I told them is -- I said, listen, in some ways, the situation is the same old, same old, lots of -- basically a porous border, insecure border, but what's changed post-9/11 is that the national tolerance for that porous being the way it is has decreased significantly. The silver lining here, I should emphasize, is that the United States can and should expect much more cooperation from Mexico in counterterrorism that it can in stopping its own nationals...</s>DOBBS: Oh, for crying out loud, Mexico won't even cooperate in stopping the illegal traffic of its citizens across our border. I mean, come on. Let's be...</s>DOBBS: Come on. Let's be straight here.</s>ANDREAS: Let's also be straight and say it would be political -- it would be political suicide for Mexican politicians to actually stop their citizens from leaving their country. The U.S. has promoted democratization of Mexico for decades. Now they're asking...</s>DOBBS: Wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait.</s>ANDREAS: No, no, no.</s>DOBBS: Let's talk about Mexico since you brought it up. You always want to shift this back to the United States. Mexico is a sovereign country with almost 110 million citizens. Aren't they responsible for those citizens, their economic and social wellbeing? Aren't they responsible for their borders?</s>ANDREAS: They're absolutely responsible for their borders, but their constitution actually prohibits them stopping people from leaving their country, and, in fact, I would suggest that the United States...</s>DOBBS: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Stopping people from leaving their country forcibly. I'm suggesting that the Mexican government, a Mexican state that is rife with corruption, a 40 percent poverty rate perhaps could, through its concerned political leadership, start looking to the well-being of its people and providing that well-being through its policies in that state. What do you think of that idea?</s>ANDREAS: I couldn't agree with you more.</s>DOBBS: And on that, we've got to quit. You know what? I love it when we agree. Come back, we'll argue.</s>ANDREAS: Thank you very much for having me.</s>DOBBS: Some very bad news at the border: eight illegal aliens and their alleged smuggler were killed in Hidalgo, Texas. Their car plunged into an irrigation canal. A ninth illegal alien survived that crash late last night, two miles from the Mexican border. The aliens crossed the border into Texas. They were picked up by the smuggler. That accident occurred when the smuggler sped away from the area with no lights on to avoid being apprehended by authorities at the border. The government set aside $1 billion in federal money to pay for emergency room care for illegal aliens in this country, but now to obtain that money, hospitals must do something that's alarming immigration activists and certainly hospital administrators. Bill Tucker reports.</s>BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The federal government has $1 billion for emergency room medical care for illegal aliens, but to collect it hospitals will have to do what they've never done before, ask a patient's immigration status. Bad idea, say those involved with immigration health issues, as it would intimidate illegal aliens in need of health care.</s>MARCELA URRUTIA, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA: A significant sector of our population would not seek and would not obtain incredibly needed health care and which would absolutely expose the rest of us to public health consequences.</s>TUCKER: Doctors and hospital administrators object to the proposal as well, saying they're health care providers, not immigration officers.</s>CHRISTINE CAPITO BURCH, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF PUBLIC HOSPITALS: We're hearing from many hospitals that they will not ask these questions. They would find it detrimental to fulfilling their public health commitment to the communities and they won't ask the questions.</s>TUCKER: The program begins this October, distributing $250 million a year for four years with particular attention given to states with the highest number of illegal alien arrests. Those states are Arizona, California, Florida, New Mexico, New York and Texas. The idea is not popular with everyone. Some lawmakers calling it simply misguided.</s>REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R), CALIFORNIA: The fact is, if the federal government does that, what we are doing is giving our hospitals and emergency rooms money to take care of illegals, but not money to take care of our own citizens who don't have health care coverage.</s>TUCKER: Forty-three million American citizens don't have health insurance and we don't know the impact of illegals on our health care system.</s>TUCKER: In May of this year, the General Accounting Office basically admitted failure in its attempts to determine the impact of illegal aliens on uncompensated care costs. The reason, hospitals don't ask, and Lou, immigrants don't tell.</s>DOBBS: It gets better and better. Bill Tucker, thank you. Asa Hutchinson, Undersecretary of the Department of Homeland Security today announced bold new plans to expedite the deportation of illegal aliens. Under the new plan illegal aliens caught in this country, crossing into this country, will now be held and returned to their country of origin as quickly as possible. You think that might be too good to be true? Well, it turns out, you're right, it is. The plan, believe it or not, only pertains to illegal aliens caught within 100 miles of the border who've been in this country for less than 14 days. And here's the kicker, and who are not citizens of Canada or Mexico. And the problem with that? Almost 90 percent of illegal aliens caught at our borders are Mexican. DHS also said Mexicans with a special border crossing card can extend U.S. visits for up to 30 days now, up from the current limit of three. The number of illegal aliens apprehended this year has already reached 880,000. And it is widely understood and accepted that the actual number of illegal aliens getting past border patrol agents is two to three times the number actually caught. Joining me now is Michael Cutler, he's former Senior Special Agent for the INS, a fellow with the Center for Immigration Studies. Good to have you with us.</s>MICHAEL CUTLER, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES FELLOW: Thank you for having me. Good to be here.</s>DOBBS: Let's start with the idea that we're asking, through the provision of $1 billion to hospitals, to provide for emergency medical care, we're asking our hospitals now to do something we won't allow our border patrol agents to do. What's going on?</s>CUTLER: Well, lunacy is -- I keep saying that nobody would break into an amusement park if they couldn't get to go on the rides. And you know what? We're not only allowing these folks to go on the rides, we're paying for it. And I think it makes common sense to know who we're paying for. And yet, the politicians consistently show a lack of resolve, a lack of will to do what needs to be done to secure the borders. You can't protect the United States simply at the border. Any illegal alien knows that if they're persistent, if they make effort after effort, if they're willing to get arrested several times by the patrol, ultimately they'll get into the country and they'll get whatever it is they want. We need meaningful interior enforcement. And nobody from either side of the aisle really wants to talk about that.</s>DOBBS: We need to have policies in place to prevent border patrol agents from actually apprehending illegal aliens. We have local and state policies in place that prevent law enforcement officers and state patrol from questioning citizenship documentation of those that they arrest. Let's just start with those elements. What's it going to take to be serious about our border security?</s>CUTLER: I thought after 9/11 that would have been enough. And incredibly, we keep on resisting common sense. You know, if you look at what happened after December 7th, when America was attacked during the Second World War, we won that war in under four years. We had to build atom bombs and new airplanes and all sorts of things. Here we are nearly three years after 9/11 and we still don't even have a secure passport that's linked to biometrics. I don't know what it's going take to get the politicians to be shaken out of their complacency and truly protect this country. And you know, it's not just terrorists. When I was assigned to DEA intelligence they did an analysis of arrest statistics and found that 60 percent of the people arrested for drug trafficking in New York were foreign born: 6-0 percent; 30 percent nationwide. And there's a nexus between drug traffickers and terrorism, and yet we still don't have the resolve the do the right thing. And the new agents going through the academy now, what they now call ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, aren't even being taught Spanish language. How can you possibly investigate people you can't communicate with?</s>DOBBS: It is extraordinary. Michael Cutler, good to have you with us.</s>CUTLER: Appreciate the opportunity to talk with you about it. I think it's important for the folks out there to understand the magnitude of the problem. And one last thing: with the backdrop that we keep being told that we're under the threat of yet, further attacks.</s>DOBBS: Thank you, Michael</s>CUTLER: Thank you.</s>DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts on these issues. Many of you wrote in about non-citizens gaining the right to vote in this country. Karen Weisner of Santa Rosa, California: Give non-citizens the vote? Well, we're already giving them our jobs, free medical care and other social services. So, why not make it a clean sweep and give it all away! Justin Lynch, Gold Valley, Minnesota: Now, I've heard it all. Illegal aliens demand the "right" to vote, thereby giving them input into who makes the laws they have no intention of observing! We love hearing from you. E-mail us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com. Coming up next here: "The Best Government Money Can Buy" on our series of special reports all this week. Tonight, we focus on the enormous influence of special interest groups and the ones they most influence in Washington. Also ahead, Senator Robert Byrd. He'll be joining me to talk about his new book, "Losing America: Confronting a Reckless and Arrogant Presidency". Stay with us.