White House Not Backing Down in Battle With Dems; Rep. Mary Gay Scanlon (D-PA) is Interviewed About House Dems Subpoenaing Hope Hicks and Ex-Chief of Staff to Don McGahn
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. We are now one House subpoena defied and two more issued since the last time we met. With that, a single question with as many legal, political and psychological dimensions to it, as there are no bad metaphors to describe it. Namely, how fast and how far will Democrats push the impeachment process? Now that calendar days are also campaign days, every new development affects and complicates how each player approaches that question. Just as an example, there's what happened today. Former White House counsel Don McGahn defied a subpoena refusing to appear before the House Judiciary Committee. You see the empty seat there. By day's end, Committee chairman and Democrat Jerry Nadler had subpoenaed McGahn's former chief of staff as well as former White House communications director Hope Hicks. Chairman Nadler saying they were critical witnesses to what he calls President Trump's obstruction of justice which he says is continuing. What the chairman did not do was amp up talk about impeachment. Other Democrats, junior and senior, are speaking out as our Manu Raju found out.</s>MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Is it time to move forward with impeachment inquiry?</s>REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): I do. I personally do. We can't be scared of elections. We need to uphold the rule of law.</s>COOPER: Well, Manu also spoke with Adam Schiff, certainly no freshman about whether his views on impeachment on being influenced by the administration's very open refusal to cooperate, even if it means defying a lawful order of Congress.</s>REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): I think the administration is certainly pushing the Congress in that direction by obstructing everything.</s>RAJU: Are you changing your tune on that?</s>SCHIFF: You know, I think the case gets stronger the more they stonewall the Congress.</s>COOPER: Well, House Speaker Pelosi on the other hand not only believes otherwise and is opposed to moving forward on impeachment, Republican assumption at least. She also says her fellow Democrats are with her on this.</s>REPORTER: Madam Speaker, are you under increased pressure to impeach the president from your caucus?</s>REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): No.</s>COOPER: But that may be more a reflection of the speaker's political judgment than her cold-eyed assessment of the facts, because keeping them honest, whatever your view of the Democrats of President Trump or the prospects of impeaching another president, there are facts to contend with, the kind that have tripped up other presidents or ended up in articles of impeachment before driving one president out of office. President Trump is facing a bigger body of damaging facts than most, no matter how much he down plays it which he does, of course, all the time.</s>DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, you can't impeach somebody that's doing a great job. That's the way I view it. We even talked about that today. I said why don't you use this for impeachment? And Nancy said, we're not looking to impeach you. I said that's good, Nancy, that's good. But you know what? You don't impeach people when they're doing a good job. And you don't impeach people when there was no collusion.</s>BURNETT: Well, that was before the Mueller report landed, but he's kept it up ever since. Now, keeping them honest, very little of it is true. As for the job he's doing, the majority of Americans do not approve of it. In fact, according to a new Quinnipiac poll out today, only 38 percent do, which is extraordinary when you think about how well the economy is doing. In any case, the president is also wrong that you can't be impeached without an underlying crime. Here is Republican Lindsey Graham, then a congressman, now a senator, explaining it during impeachment proceedings for President Clinton.</s>SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): You don't even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.</s>COOPER: Well, fast forward to now, here is how another Republican, libertarian Congressman Justin Amash put it. Quote: Under our Constitution, the president shall be removed from office on impeachment for and conviction of treason, bribery or other high crimes and misdemeanors. While high crimes and misdemeanors is not defined, the context implies conduct that violates the public trust -- which covers a lot of ground. Some with the president's footsteps all over it, and if you think any of this is new, well, consider just a few items in articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon. See if they sound familiar. I'm convincing them slightly for time. Interfering or endeavoring to interfere with the conduct of investigations by the Department of Justice and congressional committees. Making or causing to be made false or misleading public statements for the purpose of deceiving the people of the United States into believing that a thorough and complete investigation had been conducted, endeavoring to cause prospective defendants and individuals duly tried and convicted to expect favored treatment in return for their silence or false testimony or rewarding individuals for their silence or false testimony. Sound familiar? The point is not to pass judgment on this president, only to point out that this fight today isn't over nothing. Similar allegations brought down one president and far fewer allegations nearly doomed another. More now from -- on all this from our Jim Acosta who joins us from the White House. So, is this a fight the White House is looking to have, Jim?</s>JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: They are looking to have this fight, Anderson, quite frankly. They see this as some of -- they're willing to fight into the courts and as far as the Supreme Court, if necessary. And when you saw that name card on the table earlier for Don McGahn, Anderson, I think you could quite possibly see nuance for Hope Hicks and Annie Donaldson, the former chief of staff to the former White House counsel Don McGahn in the future. Talking to sources inside the White House and outside the White House, close to the president, they're all expecting the president to do the very same thing, to extend immunity to Hope Hicks and Annie Donaldson, to prevent them from testifying in the same way that Don McGahn was prevented from testifying. Anderson, it goes beyond -- at least in the case of Hope Hicks, it goes beyond this idea that the executive branch has the right to protect the privilege to keep some of these officials from testifying. In the case of Hope Hicks, this is somebody who was very close to president Trump and is seen as almost a daughter of the president inside the White House, despite the fact she doesn't work here anymore. So, there's some very raw feelings about not letting those officials testify.</s>COOPER: Just politically, I mean, even if there are just steps towards impeachment by Democrats, that's clearly something the president can use to focus on up through the election.</s>ACOSTA: That's right. There was a time, Anderson -- I talked to sources not too long ago who said when the president was facing the prospect of a Democratic-led Congress, that he was concerned about the possibility of being impeached. That's not the case anymore. And there are some on his team who view that prospect as being an advantage to the president because they see it as something that could backfire against the Democrats. That's why you're seeing Nancy Pelosi, the House speaker, tread so cautiously on all this. I did talk to a senior Democratic aide this evening who said now, that some of that is starting to change inside the Democratic Party, and that many of these Democrats are starting to feel like Robert Mueller, for example, the special counsel, has a duty to testify up on Capitol Hill. The question is, if Robert Mueller were to testify, how does that change the equation up on Capitol Hill in terms of the attitudes towards impeachment? But, Anderson, when I asked the president about this yesterday in the Rose Garden as he was heading on the South Lawn for a departure to a political rally, you know, he was saying, listen, he has had the most transparent administration that we've seen in years. That's obviously not the case, but they have their talking points and they're willing to fight this impeachment battle all the way into the courts and into the next election, Anderson.</s>COOPER: Yes, Jim Acosta, thanks very much. With us now, Democratic Congresswoman Mary Gay Scanlon. She's vice chair of the House Judiciary Committee. Before we get to the question of impeachment, Congresswoman, I just want to ask you about something we just mentioned, the House Judiciary Committee issued a subpoena today to former White House communications director, Hope Hicks. Don McGahn's former aide as well, Annie Donaldson. You're the vice chair of that committee. Do you have any indication they'll actually comply with the subpoena?</s>REP. MARY GAY SCANLON (D-PA): Well, so far, we haven't had any of the witnesses tell us they're not willing to comply. It's only been when the president has gotten in the way and instructed people not to comply that we've had a problem.</s>COOPER: Where do you stand right now in terms of impeachment? Do you think President Trump should be impeached?</s>SCANLON: I'm not at he should be impeached. But I do think it's reached a point where we have to open an impeachment inquiry.</s>COOPER: Why open an impeachment inquiry if you don't want it to go all the way to impeachment?</s>SCANLON: Well, look, the impeachment inquiry is our opportunity to get the facts out, get the evidence out. The American people have not yet seen what's in the Mueller report. We've had the president and his henchmen stonewall and issue talking points that bear no relationship to what's in that report. The president has tried to hide the underlying evidence. We need to be able to show the American people the witnesses that led to Mueller's on collusions that there was obstruction of justice or at least evidence of it that needed to be preserved for Congress to look at, and we need to see the underlying evidence.</s>COOPER: But your -- I mean, folks on Capitol Hill are trying to do that now. They're trying to have hearings, trying to have witnesses. No one is showing up. Why would somebody show up in impeachment hearings if they wouldn't show up under a subpoena or now?</s>SCANLON: Well, I think we need to make it plain to the president that this is what we're talking about now. I mean, volume one of the Mueller report was about Russian interference in our election. Volume two was about the president interfering with the investigation of that Russian interference. Volume three is the cover-up. And that's what he's doing right now. He's trying to cover up his misconduct. That warrants us having an impeachment inquiry.</s>COOPER: Right. But what changed -- I mean, having an impeachment inquiry, does it give you any more power to actually get witnesses to show up? Because subpoena seems to be a pretty strong thing and they're ignoring subpoenas.</s>SCANLON: Subpoenas are a pretty strong thing and I think the average American knows that they can't ignore a subpoena, well, neither can the president. And he can't instruct the people that work for him or don't even work for him anymore to ignore a subpoena. When we go to court to enforce the subpoenas, as we will, the court looks at it as a balancing process. They look at the executive's rights and they look at the legislative, or the congressional oversight rights. And depending on the issue, depending on the specific testimony that's at issue, the court balances the respective rights of the branches. But there is no executive immunity to cover up misconduct and particularly not so when Congress is investigating presidential misconduct.</s>COOPER: So if you go to court under the umbrella of an impeachment proceeding, does that give you extra power in front of judges in any way? Or -- I mean, I basically just -- I'm not a lawyer. I don't understand why someone would be compelled to do something they're not currently compelled to do under the law which they're supposed to be doing.</s>SCANLON: Right. Well, they are currently compelled to do something under the law. The breadth of the assertion of privilege or immunity that the president has made here is frankly ridiculous. There's no basis in the law.</s>COOPER: Sure.</s>SCANLON: There may be specific issues, but he's gone way over his skis there. But that goes to the fact that we now have a cover-up in addition to the obstruction. So it does raise the bar. We saw -- I think a lot of members saw a real shift in tone from their constituents over the past week, particularly the past weekend with the president instructing witnesses not to come to testify before Congress when there's a subpoena and his continued obstruction, his stonewalling of the American people.</s>COOPER: Speaker Pelosi says there's no division within the Democratic Caucus on impeachment. It does seem like there certainly is -- there's a difference of opinion of whether you move for impeachment now or just try to go for hearings and gather evidence and show that to the American people. Are you worried a at all about the effect moving toward impeachment or starting proceedings would have on the 2020 race on the Republicans' ability to use that to rally their base, to deflect Democrats from talking about tabletop issues which are important to voters?</s>SCANLON: Of course. We're all worried about that. I mean, we came here to do work for the voters. I mean, today, we passed a number of bills dealing with veterans. We've passed legislation to shore up the Affordable Care Act, as it's being attacked by this administration. We're passing a lot of good legislation and we don't want to do this, but the president is undermining the rule of law. Yes, it would be terrible if the fact of protecting the Constitution by starting an impeachment inquiry somehow led to him being able to defy the law even more. And, of course, that's a real fear. But you can't let political considerations get in the way of your duty and the truth, and that's the point we've reached.</s>COOPER: Congresswoman Mary Gay Scanlon, appreciate your time. Thank you.</s>SCANLON: Thank you.</s>COOPER: There's breaking news on President Trump's tax returns coming up. Some fascinating stuff. New report on a secret IRS memo that upends the entire White House rationale for withholding those returns from Congress. Also, Dr. Ben Carson, the Housing and Urban Development secretary, got dumped on today, much like the famous cookie he mistook for a basic housing term.</s>REP. KATIE PORTER (D-CA): Do you know what an REO is?</s>BEN CARSON, HUD SECRETARY: An Oreo?</s>PORTER: R -- no, not an Oreo. An REO, REO.