Has the Me Too Movement Gone Too Far?
SESAY: When Time Magazine recently named the women behind the MeToo hashtag as the person of the year, it helped solidified the movement significance. The outcry from women and some men over sexual harassment, misconduct, misogyny, and assault has troubled Hollywood elite, prominent journalists, and newsmakers in unprecedented numbers this year. So, as the calendar gets set to flip, what does 2018 have in store for the movement? Well, our next guest believes the MeToo Movement has gone too far and is in fact out of control. Medical and psychiatrist Carole Lieberman is here with me now. Dr. Carole, welcome.</s>DR. CAROLE LIEBERMAN, MEDICAL DOCTOR AND PSYCHIATRIST: Thank you.</s>SESAY: So, when you say you believe the MeToo Movement has gotten out of the control, what do you mean?</s>LIEBERMAN: Well, I'm looking at this as someone who has done a lot of sexual harassment cases as an expert witness on both sides. I've helped women to talk about how much emotional distress that they have from being harassed, from being raped, from being assaulted, and so on. And -- but I've also been on the side of men who have -- were the alleged harassers, and not all the time are the women actually telling the truth about what happened. There are secondary motivations like money, of course, or sometimes a relationship doesn't work out, the woman has in mind that this is going to be -- that it was a consensual relationship and then when she realizes that the man isn't going to marry her, all of a sudden, it become sexual harassment. Or, of course, nowadays, you know, with a lot of the people being famous celebrities and Hollywood celebrities or, of course, Washington, you know, there's the 15 minutes of fame factor. Now, that's not to say that there aren't a lot of women who were sexually harassed, sexually assaulted, raped, kid -- little girls being sexually assaulted, and so on, but there are women who have joined this movement who have not been any of those, and they're just really angry women. And they are taking advantage of jumping on the bandwagon to actually try to destroy men.</s>SESAY: So, let me ask you this, when you say that women who are jumping on the bandwagon who are just angry, who are you referring to because in the case of the women who have made allegations that have been reported by media houses, newspapers, and news organizations, those allegations while not proven in a court of law have been corroborated by multiple individuals that were told of the instances at the time these women alleged these actions happened. So, in the case of those cases that have been publicly reported on, we have corroboration. So, who are you speaking about when you say that women who are just angry?</s>LIEBERMAN: I am talking about -- yes, I agree with you, there -- you know, there are some specific women who have come out with things that can be and have been corroborated or even though no not yet on trial in the court, but I'm talking about the women who are just kind of hangers-on who don't say that they were harassed, but are just proponents of this movement, and are you know, making -- bringing some of the force to -- with the impulsion to it. I mean, there are millions of women who have joined the MeToo Movement. I mean, on Twitter and so on. And so, is it possible that millions have been sexually assaulted or harassed? Yes. But it's not as likely. I think a lot of women -- you know, when people are angry, it comes from being hurt and men and women these days are very hurt. We have hurt each other.</s>SESAY: So, when you say the movement and it seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, I am hearing from what you're saying that you think that the MeToo Movement as it stands now having this support from a lot of different women is a negative thing. And I guess my question to you is how can it be a negative thing to have women come together and take a stand and say we will not the victims of abuse of power? Because it's not about sex. I think we -- a lot of the time we would accept that these cases in the workplace, at least, are not about sex per se, it is about abuse of power. So, how can it be a negative thing for women to take that position and band together and say, we demand to be treated equally, fairly, respectfully?</s>LIEBERMAN: Because it has gone beyond having some kind of meaningful dialogue and it's just gotten to be screechy and just yelling and just knocking one man of his job after the other. I mean, yes, there are -- you know, I think it's a great thing for women. I mean, women are afraid, a lot of women, who have been sexually harassed or abused or afraid to speak out because they're afraid nobody would believe them. I mean, this is before the movement. Afraid no one will believe them, afraid that the man who did harass them would -- as he has threatened them in some way that something is going to happen if they speak out. Also, they're ashamed and they blame themselves a lot of the women. So, in that sense, that's not bad that there is this movement that gives validation to women to come out and actually say it.</s>SESAY: Or is changing -- I think the goal women want is if you're looking at Capitol Hill and the U.S. legislature is changing a system that makes it incredibly difficult for women to speak out when they are the victims of this kind of behavior. And as for the men, I do want to pick up on something you said, you said that, you know, these men -- if I heard you correctly are being toppled or driven out of their positions. If you are someone who has perpetrated these act as alleged or this kind of behavior, do you believe it's right and they should stay in those positions?</s>LIEBERMAN: Well, if they have a -- if there's a trial and a jury finds that they are guilty of these things, then perhaps not. But I think just because -- I mean, now, apparently, there's -- a woman have come out to say that she doesn't even want it to be said as alleged that the media should just, you know, take it as these things actually happened.</s>SESAY: We're not being in a court of law so we will use alleged but --</s>LIEBERMAN: No, but I'm saying --</s>SESAY: No, I understand your point. But I guess, again, I think, you know, in the case of multiple claims coming out that are being corroborated and, you know, workplaces have a standard code of behavior and ethics -- again, back to the point of men being toppled, to use your word, should -- do you think it is healthy to have such people remain in these workplaces if they have indeed -- if they're the subject of multiple allegations?</s>LIEBERMAN: Well, I think that they are still innocent until proven guilty. I mean, I don't think -- that's what I mean, is the voice, the sound, the noise, has gotten so loud. It's one thing to have rational conversations and to make rational laws but it's another thing to just be on the warpath.</s>SESAY: And is that how you see the smoke that you think people are --</s>LIEBERMAN: I see -- oh, I see that there are some women who are on the warpath.</s>SESAY: And do you think that's the majority of women? Because you're saying that it's become screechy which would suggest those people have taken over the movement which many would disagree with.</s>LIEBERMAN: I -- well, I think a lot of them have, yes.</s>SESAY: Dr. Carole, it's great having you on and having your perspective. It's important to get all perspectives at this time, so thank you.</s>LIEBERMAN: Thank you.</s>SESAY: All right. We're going to pause and take a very quick break. Much more after this.