Saddam Hussein: Separating Fact From Fiction
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And stories about Saddam Hussein are, of course, plentiful. But separating fact from fiction is not always an easy task, especially when dealing with one of history's most elusive dictators. For our Iraq 101 segment about the Iraqi leader, we're joined by the Con Coughlin, he's the executive editor of The London Sunday Telegraph, the author of the important new book, "Saddam, King of Terror." Coughlin has been covering terrorism in the Middle East for more than 20 years. Con, thanks so much for joining us. What was the single most important fact about Saddam Hussein that you learned in researching this book that you didn't know about in the past?</s>CON COUGHLIN, "LONDON SUNDAY TELEGRAPH": His ruthlessness. I mean, it came out, loud and clear. I went into researching this book with my eyes wide open. I wanted to write a fair and balanced book. And it was just -- as I went through all the years of the murders and the purgers and the assassinations, it just struck me how ruthless this guy is. He will do anything to survive, and it's a lesson we need to bear in mind, as we move forward at the moment.</s>BLITZER: He's ordered hits, assassinations, executions of some of his closest friends and even relatives.</s>COUGHLIN: Yes, it's quite amazing. I mean, the people that started with him, most of them are dead. His key members of his family are dead. Key military officers, people who helped him win the war with Iran, the war with Kuwait, are dead. And I'm sometimes thinking he must feel like MacBeth, confronting Banquo's ghost, as he sits in one of his bunkers these days -- all these people that he's taken out.</s>BLITZER: But some have said, and correct me if I'm wrong, that as ruthless as Saddam Hussein is, his sons, Uday, in particular, may be even more ruthless.</s>COUGHLIN: Yes. Well, Uday is a psychopath. I mean, there's no doubt about it. When he was 21, Saddam made him president of the Iraqi Olympic Committee, right, a very, very easy thing to run. What did Uday do? He turned it into an instrument of torture, the Olympic Committee, and he built a network of cells in the basement. He tortured people. It was so bad, Saddam had to close it down. I mean, that's what Uday is all about. Qusay is a more considered figure, more thoughtful, but just as ruthless. And the two sons played a key role in the murders of their brothers-in-law in 1996.</s>BLITZER: Their brother-in-law who defected to Jordan and then came back?</s>COUGHLIN: That's right.</s>BLITZER: Did you ever understand why he came back?</s>COUGHLIN: Well, the West didn't like them very much. They fled to the West, thinking that they'd be hailed by the West, and we took one look at their record and said, no thanks. Saddam tempted them back. He promised them a pardon. And the reason they fled, in the first place, was because of a power battle with Uday and Qusay. Saddam said, you know, come back, all is for given. The moment they got to the border, they had the equivalent of a Mafia kiss -- welcome back, you're dead.</s>BLITZER: Yes. That was -- we have an e-mail from a viewer, Laura in Vancouver, who writes this: The letter Iraq submitted to the U.N. doesn't even have one hint of compliance. It's tone is defiant an arrogant, as always. This is just another stalling technique. The inspectors won't be allowed to accomplish anything. What is Saddam Hussein up to right now?</s>COUGHLIN: You have remember Saddam is a bully and he doesn't like being bullied. And what Saddam is up to is very simple. Saddam, I mean, in the book, I hit on this thing that survival is the key to Saddam. And that's what he's about. He's playing the standard brinkmanship, even with this all-embracing Security Council resolution, he believes there's still room for maneuver. He's pushing, he's juggling. But the real fear is what he will get up to, if we have to attack him.</s>BLITZER: This is a another e-mail from P.J. in Pittsburgh, wants to know this: What are the chances that Saddam would align himself with Osama bin Laden to launch terror strikes against the United States?</s>COUGHLIN: Very likely. Very likely.</s>BLITZER: Likely, Likely?</s>COUGHLIN: Very likely.</s>BLITZER: Because lot of people have said there's no evidence there was a close relationship between Osama bin Laden, as a very fundamentalist Islamic figure and Saddam Hussein, the secularist.</s>COUGHLIN: But opposites attract in the Middle East. We know this from history. We've seen Iran and Syria, for example, working together. It's quite possible and I actually think very likely, that Osama and Saddam will work together. They have -- Saddam has trained Al Qaeda people in the past, there's no doubt about that. And Saddam is looking at any way to survive. And if he can make use of the Al Qaeda network, good. I mean, the recent murder of Abu Nidal in Baghdad, the infamous Palestinian terrorist, I was told that that was because Abu Nidal refused Saddam's request that he train Al Qaeda, and so Saddam had him killed.</s>BLITZER: But there's been a lot of other notorious terrorists who found shelter, harbor, if you will, safety in Baghdad.</s>COUGHLIN: Oh, yes. I mean, at one point, Baghdad was the terrorist capital of the world. German terrorists, I mean, the old Bader-Meinhoff gang was based and trained in Baghdad. Carlos the Jackal had links to Saddam. And these kinds of networks are the ones he will try and use again.</s>BLITZER: Does Saddam Hussein, who's surrounded by, obviously, you know, sycophants who are scared out of their mind, to say no to him, to give him information, he might not want to hear, does he have a clue what's really awaiting him, if he doesn't comply with these inspectors?</s>COUGHLIN: Yes. I think he does. But the thing that struck me, when I was researching the Gulf War for the book was that Saddam is quite brave. I mean, even at the height of the Gulf War, when the allies were obliterating his military, Saddam was still there in a bunker, saying I'm not fazed, I'm not fazed. And I've spoken to generals who were there with him and he didn't flinch. And he knows that America has overwhelming air power, but the big thing that Saddam believes is that the West does not have the world to take casualties. And that, you know, is a big issue.</s>BLITZER: So you think this time around, as opposed to last time, he might give the order to use chemical or biological agents?</s>COUGHLIN: I think he will do anything he can. And just remember, when the Iranians started to press the advantage and move into Iraq, he used weapons of mass destruction. He used chemical weapons. I think he would definitely use these weapons. Furthermore, from briefings I've had with the intelligence community, he's preparing Kamikaze units of Air Force pilots to fly what's left of the Iraqi air force, against neighboring countries such as Israel, (inaudible) Bahrain, loaded with chemical weapons.</s>BLITZER: All right.</s>COUGHLIN: That kind of thing.</s>BLITZER: All right. Con Coughlin, we could continue talking about this a long time, but I guess if the people want more information, they should read your book, simply titled, "Saddam, King of Terror." Appreciate it very much.</s>COUGHLIN: Pleasure to be here.</s>BLITZER: Good luck with the book.</s>COUGHLIN: Thanks. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com