Egypt Reeling Amid Deadly Violence; Interview with John McCain
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now, Americans warned to leave Egypt. The deadly violence spiraling out of control prompting President Obama to speak out. We'll get reaction from Senator John McCain. He's just back from Egypt. Also, former Congressman Ron Paul, he's here to talk about ObamaCare, a possible government shut down, his son's presidential possibilities and his own brand new Web TV channel. Plus, the moment half a century ago when Martin Luther King, Jr.. went off script and made history. I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM. It's certainly one of America's most important allies in the Middle East. Right now, though, Egypt is unraveling as the world watches. The United Nations Security Council will hold an urgent meeting this hour in New York. The United States is telling Americans to get out of Egypt. The State Department says if you're in Egypt, leave. If you need help, ask. And if you're planning to go to Egypt, don't do it. More than 500 people were killed in clashes yesterday; thousands were injured, leaving the country reeling. CNN's Frederik Pleitgen is joining us now live from Cairo -- Fred, what did you see today on the streets of the Egyptian capital?</s>FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf. Yes, the emotions here still absolutely charged in Cairo. What happened today is I went to a mosque that's in Cairo. What was in the mosque is a lot of the people who were killed in that crackdown that happened yesterday. There were supporters of Mohamed Morsy who told us that as many as 500 bodies were inside that mosque. We didn't get a chance to count them, because there were people coming in, trying to take the bodies of their relatives out for burial. But, of course, these people were grieving and they were very angry. What the Muslim Brotherhood is saying is that when that crackdown happened on Wednesday, they were caught off guard. They were in some disarray. And they still are somewhat in disarray. But they say they are going to be back. And we saw some of that today around Cairo. There was an administrative building that was attacked by pro-Morsy supporters that had to be evacuated. It was also set on fire. And tomorrow, the Muslim Brotherhood is calling for demonstrations -- large demonstrations here in Cairo. And, Wolf, the authorities here have already said that if buildings -- if the authorities are attacked, they will counter that with live fire. So it looks as though it has all the ingredients, if you will, for this to spiral further out of control and to get worse before it gets any better -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: Because there have been attacks on government buildings. There have been attacks on police. And so, what, the military is now saying, the security forces, if you're -- if you violate the curfew and there's martial law, there's a state of emergency underway right now, or if you do any of those things, you're not going to be resisted with water cannons or tear gas, they're going to shoot and kill you. Is that right?</s>PLEITGEN: That's absolutely what they're saying. They are saying they're going to play hard ball. Certainly it is something where they have shown that this is something that they're willing to do. The whole crackdown that we saw on Wednesday was then giving a very clear statement to the Muslim Brotherhood that they're not going to take any more of the demonstrations of the sit-ins. They called that a jeopardy to the state of Egypt. And they say that's why the crackdown was so harsh. And there's absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind that if tomorrow, there are larger gatherings, in front of, for instance, military installations, police installations, that the authorities will, most probably, return live fire, as they have done in the past couple of days. So a very, very, very emotionally charged situation. I can tell you, one little a anecdote from today, when we were at that mosque where the bodies were being brought out, there was some -- a military vehicle there, for whatever reason, might have strayed into that area. It was immediately pelted with rocks and bottles. And it also responded by the soldiers shooting in the direction of the people who were pelting it with rocks. So right now, both sides very much at odds. And I can tell you, this country is absolutely polarized -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: A terribly dangerous situation unfolding right now. Fred Pleitgen, stand by. President Obama is canceling scheduled joint exercises between the U.S. and Egyptian militaries and he says his team is also weighing what he calls further steps. Our White House correspondent, Dan Lothian, is with the president. He's vacationing on Martha's Vineyard -- Dan, what else did the president have to say about Egypt?</s>DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the president said that the cycle of violence in Egypt needs to stop. He condemned the actions of the military government and security forces and then, of course, made the announcement that the U.S. was pulling out of those joint exercises, a move that a senior administration official says had been discussed as early as June, but that the president made up his mind just last night.</s>LOTHIAN (voice-over): After a telephone briefing with his national security team on the escalating violence in Egypt, President Obama emerged from vacation mode in an effort to jolt that country's interim military government off what he called a dangerous path.</s>BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Egyptian people deserve better.</s>LOTHIAN: Canceling Bright Star, a long time, biannual joint military exercise with the Egyptians, set for next month.</s>OBAMA: While we want to sustain our relationship with Egypt, our traditional cooperation cannot continue as usual when civilians are being killed in the streets and rights are being rolled back.</s>LOTHIAN: This stepped up pressure comes amid calls to suspend the $1.3 billion in annual U.S. military aid to Egypt, something that would be virtually automatic if the White House would call the military ouster of former President Morsy "a coup." But the Obama administration has dug in its heels, insisting it would not be in the best interests of the</s>US. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does anyone in this building feel that, perhaps it was a mistake not to call what happened in Egypt a coup?</s>JEN PSAKI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESWOMAN: We don't feel that -- no, I'm not doing a retrospective and our position is the same.</s>LOTHIAN: High level talks, a delayed shipment of F-16s and blunt criticism of the refusal to call the take over a coup during the recent White House-endorsed visit to Egypt by two top Republican senators...</s>SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.</s>LOTHIAN: -- have failed to make any meaningful change. And some suggest it's unreasonable to think canceling military exercises now will have the desired effect.</s>JON ALTERMAN, DIRECTOR, MIDDLE EAST PROGRAM OF CSIS: The task is going to be to find ways to diminish our relationship with Egypt, to make it more narrows, because we are finding that Egypt is not the kind of country with which we can have the kind of intimate relationship we've had for more than three decades.</s>LOTHIAN: The president, who headed to the golf course after his brief statement on Egypt, left the door open to tougher action.</s>OBAMA: I've asked my national security team to assess the implications of the actions taken by the interim government and further steps that we may take as necessary with respect to the U.S.- Egyptian relationship.</s>LOTHIAN: White House officials say that that $1.3 billion in aid to Egypt is still under review. As for the impact of canceling the military exercises, even the State Department seems to acknowledge that there are some limitations. The spokeswoman over there, Jen Psaki, saying that despite these changes, it won't make any difference on the ground -- Wolf.</s>BLITZER: All right, Dan, thanks very much. Dan Lothian, on Martha's Vineyard, where the president is vacationing. Let's get some reaction right now to the president's remarks on Egypt. Joining us, the Republican senator, John McCain, a member of the Armed Services Committee. He's joining us from Phoenix. He was just in Cairo last week, together with Senator Lindsey Graham, at the request of President Obama. Senator, thanks very much for joining us. Did the president go far enough on Egypt?</s>SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: No, of course not, Wolf. A long time ago, we should have complied with our law, which we were asking the Egyptians to comply with the rule of law. We violated our own rule of law by not calling it for what it is, because our law clearly states that if it's a military coup, then aid is cut off. So, initially, we undercut our own values and then we are told that, in media reports, that the administration called in the Egyptians -- said -- prior to the coup, and said if you have a coup, then we will be required by law to cut off that aid. They had the coup and then, of course, we didn't do that. That's a blow to credibility. And then, on the first of August, the secretary of State, John Kerry, said that the, uh, that the military -- that the generals were, quote, "restoring democracy." That was about the time that Senator Graham and I got over there. So our message was, release these people from jails, have a constitutional change, set up a national dialogue and move forward with elections. Obviously, that wasn't as impactful as it might have been, given the statements and actions by the White House and the secretary of State. So we predicted, unfortunately, that there would be blood in the streets and it's a terrible tragedy.</s>BLITZER: So what you're saying -- suggesting, Senator -- and you'll correct me if I'm wrong -- that that statement from Senator Kerry that he made in Pakistan -- and I'm going to play it for our viewers right now...</s>MCCAIN: Yes.</s>BLITZER: -- that undermined the mission that the president himself had given you in going to Cairo. Here's what the Secretary said.</s>JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: The military was asked to intervene by millions and millions of people. And the military did not take over, to the best of our judgment, so far -- so far -- to run the country. There's a civilian government. In effect, they were restoring democracy.</s>BLITZER: I take it that's the statement that irritated you, is that right?</s>MCCAIN: Well, I just think that it -- it gave a degree of legitimacy to a non-elected government that was appointed by the generals. We know who's calling the shots. And it gave them a certain legitimacy, which then, in their view, I think may have interpreted as a green light to take whatever action necessary to put down any opposition. And, Wolf, you and I remember -- and I hope many of our viewers do -- in the 1990s, there was an uprising in Algeria. And they put them down brutally at a cost of about 200,000 lives. And I'm -- I'm afraid we may be seeing that Algeria scenario again. There's no doubt that they can kill enough people, they can probably bring at least some order, but to think that they're going to eliminate the Muslim Brotherhood is -- flies in the face of -- of the history of the Muslim Brotherhood, who have managed to survive under Mubarak and will be able to survive, perhaps, underground, despite the efforts of the generals to eliminate them.</s>BLITZER: Are you suggesting, Senator, we may be on the eve of a full-scale civil war in Egypt, perhaps along the lines of what's been unfolding the past couple of years in Syria?</s>MCCAIN: I think it's more along the Algerian model. I think that this government probably has enough military capability, a lot of it our equipment, that they can probably quell disturbances. But I'm -- I don't think that they can put it down. I think there will be acts of terror. I think that there will be tremendous unrest. And, you know, Wolf, our interests are our values and our values are our interests. And it is both our values that are being violated here, but, also our interests of a stable Egypt, which we know is the heart and soul of the Arab world. And to repress in this way, with this kind of slaughter, is something that makes it incredibly more difficult to get what is absolutely necessary, and that's a national dialogue and reconciliation. And that is going to be much more difficult now.</s>BLITZER: You heard the president announce today he was canceling Bright Star, the joint U.S.-Egyptian military exercises that takes place in Sinai every two years. Thousands of troops from both countries and European troops normally would participate. But that's gone. I assume you support that decision. But what worries me, Senator -- and I don't know if it concerns you as much, the 700 American soldiers who right now are in Sinai at a time of a growing al Qaeda presence in Sinai, part of that multinational peacekeeping force in Sinai that's been in place quietly all of these years, since the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty was signed in 1979. How concerned are you about those American troops who are lightly armed in Sinai?</s>MCCAIN: I am concerned about that. I am concerned about the safety of American citizens. Under Mubarak, as you know, there was a tremendous amount of anti-Americanism and anti-Israel, which was fostered by the Mubarak government. This government is fostering that to an incredible degree. Pictures of President Obama in the street and our fine ambassador there, Anne Patterson. They accused me -- the leading newspaper in Cairo said that John McCain had hired Muslim Brotherhood on his staff. The intensity of the anti-Americanism, which is being stoked by the military junta, makes a lot of our American citizens unsafe. And so what does that do to Egypt? One, it dries up tourism. It harms any business interests they might be able to have. And, of course, the image of Egypt throughout the world is badly damaged. So they are really on a very, very bad path here. And in this day and age of instant social networking and communication, I'm not -- I would have grave doubt -- I would have serious doubts as to whether they're going to keep everything -- be able to keep everything under control through brutality.</s>BLITZER: Would you pull out those 700 American soldiers from Sinai?</s>MCCAIN: Oh, I certainly -- well, first of all, I'd consult with our military people and ask about their security and their safety. I'd have to make that assessment with the facts. But there's no doubt that as a result of all this, the Sinai is erupting -- is much less -- much more dangerous in the last few months than it's been in many, many years. And these side effects of these things, you know, the Morsy supporters are now support -- are attacking Christian churches. I mean the implications and ripple effect of this kind of thing going on is far-reaching and terrible and tragic.</s>BLITZER: Senator McCain, thanks very much for joining us. We're glad you and Senator Lindsey Graham are back safe and sound from Egypt, as well. Appreciate it.</s>MCCAIN: Thank you.</s>BLITZER: Coming up, a huge car bomb explosion, raging fires, more than a dozen people killed. Now one group no one apparently has ever heard of says it's behind this deadly attack that occurred today. Also, the New Jersey governor, Chris Christie, has some advice for Republicans as they brainstorm about their party's future.</s>GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: You either sidle up next to them and whisper sweet nothings in their ear, you know, and try to hope they just don't punch hope. A second alternative is you punch them first. You punch them first.