Democrats Back Impeachment Inquiry; Mueller Team Hesitant about Testifying
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: I know you've pointed out its -- there are the Twitter Democrats in many ways and they're more vocal, and then there's sort of the regular folks. And that is a balance that is being taken into account.</s>JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I think a lot of the members who have called for impeachment, I'll put in -- and I don't mean it pejoratively -- but that are -- that are in the debate every day. Nancy Pelosi is interested in two groups. One is the rest of the Democrats out there, the Democratic voters who, remember, in 2018, didn't bring her back to the speakership because of Mueller. They brought her back to the speakership because of issues like health care. And it was a very focused, disciplined campaign. She's got that in her head. The other thing is, if you look at the list of the 24, the most vocal people are people in safe seats, people who are going to win no matter what. I mean 85 percent, you know, they're going to get. And what Pelosi, as the speaker, is most concerned about is those vulnerable Democrats. The Democrats who came in and won on saying, I'm not going to -- we're not going to do the Washington, you know, political game. We're going to do kitchen table issues. So I think she is -- it is a very delicate balance. And I think she is -- her -- overall, her strategy is, she doesn't think impeachment right now is a winner, but she's going to allow this to move to a place where if they do need to impeach, the country will see much more information before they make that decision and see that the president gave them no choice. This is going to be a, you know, kind of a victim contest of, you know, who's going to get cast in the role of the victim. The president wants to be the victim, but I think what Speaker Pelosi wants to do is to say, I didn't want to do this, but, Mr. President, you gave us no choice.</s>JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to have the number three House Democrat, Jim Clyburn, who's the House majority whip. It is his job to count votes. He's on at 8:00 here. And the very first question I'll ask him, if he's watching is, what's your vote count right now on impeachment? It's his job to know. And I'm fascinated if he thinks the number is higher than 24. Margaret, I want to shift gears to another bit of news that CNN broke yesterday, which is that Robert Mueller, the special counsel, apparently is reticent to testify in public before the House because he's concerned about it seeming too political. Is this something you think he can avoid, or where do you think this debate is going? Because, I have to say, that plays into what will happen on Capitol Hill today, this discussion inside the Democratic caucus.</s>MARGARET TALEV, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, you know, John, I think his kind of considerations are a little bit different than President Trump and his advisory team's considerations are, but you can understand why Mueller feels that way certainly. And if you look at polling, and I'm not saying he's poll driven, but if you look at polling, it's really striking to see the broad swath of Americans who believe he has credibility, who believe that Mueller handled this well. Something -- somewhere between two-thirds and three-quarters -- and that's a number that grew over time. So the longer that he worked the way he did behind the scenes and without leaking information, the longer he proceeded with his probe, the more his credibility grew. And he wants to be able to maintain that sense of integrity. But I don't think he's in the business of defying Congress in the same way that the president's current political playbook is proceeding. So I think my sense is this is much more a negotiation about how he would provide a response to Congress or how he would work with lawmakers than about if. I think there's a separate question, which is, how would the White House and Justice Department handle those inquiries? So far we've seen the attorney general say that it would be up to Mueller. But when it gets down to brass tacks, you know, I think we'll see. And this kind of meshes with the way Nancy Pelosi's considerations with impeachment on the -- on the president's side are going because, to a large extent, she is urging her members to rely on the courts to take action. From the president's perspective, he's put all his eggs in this basket in the idea that either the courts are going to side with him or at least it's going to take the courts a long time to decide. Now, again, for Mueller, he's not interested in court challenges and turning this into a drama. In fact, I think his inclination is just to try to avoid the drama as much as possible. But when the courts start kicking back responses, that is also going to help channel how all of this works and people's obligations to show up, whether it's in a public setting or behind closed doors to answer Congress' questions.</s>RACHAEL BADE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I have two quick thoughts on Mueller, if I can jump in real quickly. The first one, you know, he has made it clear apparently to House Judiciary staff that he doesn't want to seem -- be seen as a political football. But you have to ask yourself, at what point does he have an obligation because, you know, he has done this nearly two-year-long investigation. And it's not just Democrats who want to hear from him. Republicans on The Hill have also called for him to come in. And a lot of people, because of his credibility, want to hear from him around the country. The other thing I would say is, watch -- watch The Hill for another subpoena. A big question I have right now is, are Hill Democrats willing to subpoena him to appear in public? They have sort of treated him with kid gloves for the past few weeks, hoping to sort of work with him to get him in to have him appear publicly. But if he's not willing to do that, do they take a harder line against him? And, again, he's somebody they want to be a star witness for their party. And it's just going to be interesting to see if that -- if this -- the talks break down and things get contentious.</s>HILL: We also want to get your take on this from "The Washington Post," this memo, this confidential memo that was written specifically in the fall that was written about how to deal with requests, right, for tax returns, which found that, in fact, there wasn't much that should stand in the way, that they need to be turned over, except in the case of executive privilege. What's fascinating to me, though, too, is this memo goes on to say that even when it comes to executive privilege, the law might be read to preclude a claim of executive privilege, Joe, meaning it could be interpreted as saying this cannot be invoked to deny a subpoena. This is quite the little bit of information that we're getting, especially based on the reaction that we saw, of course, from Steve Mnuchin.</s>LOCKHART: Yes, this is a little bit of a gift for Nancy Pelosi for her meeting this morning, to bring all of this together, because the courts are saying now twice this week -- well, the one court is saying on his personal finances, and this memo is saying that the argument the administration is making is nonsense. It's not legally weak. It's not like debatable. It's nonsense. It's not based in the law. So I think she'll be able to go in and say, look at these two things. You know, have some patience. We're going to win this. If I could just say one quick thing on Mueller. Mueller will testify. You know, I hate to be a clicheist (ph), but he's a Marine. He takes his obligations seriously. He -- I remember he did some work for the NFL. And I remember we went to him and said, you know, we want you to talk about it, and he said, I will talk -- I'll get on the phone once. I'll give it 30 minutes, and I never want to talk about this again. But I did this report. I need to defend it. We'll see -- we'll see him up there under some -- any circumstance, he'll be there.</s>BERMAN: That's important history to keep in mind there. Margaret, on the tax story, "The Washington Post," which broke it, you know, they quoted from this memo, and it was coming from inside the building. This is the IRS counsel office, or a lawyer within, who wrote this. The disclosure of tax returns to the committee is mandatory, requiring the secretary to disclose returns and return information requested by the tax writing chairs. So it's not just that it was from inside the building, it's that this was buried for months and months. And somehow the Justice Department, under William Barr and the current IRS leaders, chose not to look at it when they were stiff arming Congress on this request.</s>TALEV: Right, draft memo being the keyword, draft, asterisk.</s>BERMAN: Yes.</s>TALEV: Look, there are always, to some extent, internal divisions inside any deliberation about how to proceed, but I think it's instructive that this memo is being leaked or getting out there at this time. And it, again, shows the importance ultimately of the courts in deciding these issues when the internal decision inside the administration was to set this recommendation or this analysis aside and move forward. So, again, all of these decisions now, the pressure is going to be on the courts to resolve them. And we'll see whether the Trump administration, you know, immediately follows court instruction or whether they press for appeals all the way up the chain.</s>BERMAN: Margaret, Rachael, Joe, thank you very much.</s>TALEV: Thanks.</s>HILL: A great white shark off the coast of Long Island just ahead of the Memorial Day weekend. This guy has the internet abuzz. And, of course, many people wondering, where is the shark now, this morning? We'll tell you, next.