Mark McGwire confirmed on Monday what many people had suspected for years: that he was taking steroids when he broke Major League Baseball's home run record in 1998. NPR's Tom Goldman, who covered the great home run race and McGwire's infamous 2005 testimony to Congress, talks about what McGwire's confession could mean for his career and his legacy.
Mark McGwire confirmed yesterday what many people suspected: he was using steroids when he broke baseball's homerun record in 1998. McGwire apologized. He said he wished he had never touched performance-enhancing drugs. And when Bob Costas asked him in an interview if he could really have hit all those homers without the steroids, McGwire said, absolutely.</s>Mr. MARK McGWIRE (Former Major League Baseball Player): I believe I was given this gift. There's not a pill or an injection that is going to give me the hand/eye, or give any athlete the hand/eye coordination to hit a baseball. The only reason that I took steroids was for my health purposes. I did not take steroids to get any game for any strength purposes.</s>ROBERTS: That's Mark McGwire in an interview yesterday on the MLB Network. The confession met with some anger but mostly exasperation. How did you react to the news? Tell us your story: 800-989-8255 or email talk@npr.org.</s>ROBERTS: Tom Goldman is NPR sports correspondent. He covered that homerun race in 1998 and McGwire's congressional testimony in 2005. Today he's with us from his office in Portland, Oregon. Tom, thanks for being here.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: And now the end of the story, Rebecca.</s>ROBERTS: Yeah. Well, maybe. I mean, we hear two things from McGwire, that he's sorry he took steroids, but that he doesn't think it gave him any performance edge. What's he really saying?</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: Well, kind of hard to say, you know? A lot of people including myself listened through that 50 minutes of, you know, a very emotional interview with Bob Costas last night. And he apologized and was tearful and regretful, but the question is, for what exactly? As you mentioned, there seems to be this hazy area between therapy and doing it - using these drugs to heal and performance enhancement.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: Now, Mark McGwire's intention as he said of doing it just to get healthy may be absolutely valid. But the question then remains, well, did he get, you know, performance enhancement, maybe indirectly, even though he didn't want to or planned to, did he get it through these drugs? He says no.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: Interestingly, I spoke to someone today who said that Mark McGwire seems to be exploiting an information vacuum in the sense that, you know, there aren't any real irrefutable scientific studies that say, yes, steroids create more and longer homeruns. Now whether Mark McGwire was doing this in a calculating way, well, everyone has to make their own decision. The fact is there's not this hardcore scientific evidence.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: However, short of that, I did - I was able to find some interesting studies. And you can find them online, and I encourage people to go to them if they're interested in this kind of thing, by some physicists. One done a couple of years ago by a physicist from Tufts University named Robert Tobin. And the study was entitled, "The Possible Effects of Steroids on Homerun Production in Baseball."</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: And then I also read, there's a fellow physicist named Alan Nathan who interpreted the study. And both of them really did agree that while there's non-irrefutable evidence, there are plausible arguments that say that, yes, steroids do lead to increase in muscle mass, and an increase in muscles mass leads to increase in strength, which leads to an increase in bat speed, which leads to an increase in the speed of the ball heading into the outfield, which leads to a farther trajectory, trajectory which leads to homerun.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: So you know, there are these studies, people can read them. But as I said, you know, as far as the irrefutable science goes, it's still not there. It's hard to create that. I mean, how many scientists could send down an email and say, I need all steroid-using baseball players to report so I can do a study on them. Not many guys want to admit they did steroids and how many would want to be part of the study? So we're still, you know, a ways away from this irrefutable proof.</s>ROBERTS: Well, even if his steroid use did not help his performance which -whatever. Maybe there's no scientific proof, but it certainly would defy logic to think that being stronger doesn't make you a better hitter. It was against the rules, right? I mean, he was still cheating.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: It was. And, you know, this is a myth, and I've actually gotten some mail on this. People say, hey, it wasn't illegal in baseball, you know, why couldn't he do it? The fact is it was. It was prohibited in baseball. And in 1991, then-Commissioner Fay Vincent sent out a memo, a directive, to teams and to the players union, saying that a number of illegal drugs, including steroids, are prohibited in baseball. And it laid out the penalties for that and the treatment for that. Testing wasn't around, and, you know - so the ability to catch people wasn't there. But the fact was that it was prohibited. To say that it was not illegal is wrong.</s>ROBERTS: Are we not giving McGwire enough credit for coming cleaning on this?</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: I think we should. I think we should give him credit. It was a very emotional thing, especially the thing with Bob Costas. He went live, you know, and 50 minutes. And Bob Costas grilled him on about as many things as he could, including the names of his sons, which was kind of a little, you know, kind of a lighthearted interlude. But he got to everything, and I think Costas pushed him pretty well on a lot of things. And it was very tough for Mark McGwire to do this.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: It was very tough for him to come forward, to make the calls that he made yesterday to Roger Maris' wife. Roger Maris, of course, was the great New York Yankee hitter who had held the single season homerun record until Mark McGwire broke that in 1998. After that memorable duel, which you may remember was Sammy Sosa...</s>ROBERTS: Right, with Sammy Sosa...</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: ...which captivated the nation, resuscitated baseball after the very damaging strike a couple of years before then. So, yes, I see - he should get great credit.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: As far as completely coming forward, you know, that will be picked through as we're doing right now. I mean, I and a lot of other journalists and a lot of fans, I think, would love to see a real admission where there are no questions left.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: We want to know what were the drugs. We want to know how the player got them. We want to know the changes the players had in their body. We want to know the way the players think the drugs helped them. There are still those questions out there with McGwire's admission and other admissions. Alex Rodriguez about a year ago, before the start of last baseball season, left questions unanswered.</s>ROBERTS: Well, you were there in 2005, when McGwire testified in front of Congress and he kept saying, I'm not here to talk about the past, I'm not here to talk about the past. So why yesterday?</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: Well, a couple of reasons. He - I mean, most specifically, he is about to come back into the public eye. He has taken a job with the St. Louis Cardinals as the new hitting coach. He's very excited about that. He also knew that coming back into the public eye meant that he would have to confront this, meaning he would answer questions about this. So it was obviously his thinking that let's, you know, get it out in the open.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: He also - in his interviews and a statement yesterday that he released to the Associated Press - talked more about that very damning congressional testimony that he gave, or didn't give, actually, in 2005 in that congressional hearing on steroids and baseball when he said over and over, I'm not here to talk about the past. He said yesterday that the reason he wasn't able to do that was that he couldn't be guaranteed immunity, so he faced possible prosecution. He did it to protect himself, but more importantly he said he did it to protect his family. He said he wanted to tell the truth and it killed him not to tell the truth, but he decided to take that hit, as he said.</s>ROBERTS: Let's hear from Amy in Phoenix. Amy, welcome to TALK OF THE NATION.</s>AMY (Caller): Thank you. I have to say I'm really having a hard time believing that these drugs were used for anything other than enhancing their sports performance. I think it's self-serving. I think that the reason that he's coming out now and saying it is self-serving because possibly the promoters or whoever are telling him, you know, you better fess up to this now before somebody else finds out and then you've got to come back and admit it, you know. Come out on your own and admit it, maybe things will go a little better for you, for your career. But I really think that it's cheating, and I think that people who cheat like this should be banned from the sport. I really do.</s>ROBERTS: Amy, thanks for your call.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: Well, as Amy points, you know, she brings up a good point. I mean, this is the problem with the incomplete admissions that these baseball players do. They have a - what they consider a coming-to-God moment, but it's really more like a coming-to-gosh in the sense that it's not all there. And either them or their handlers don't realize that giving, you know, little bits, and even if you package it in a very emotional admission, then it's going to create even more questions. And I think Mark McGwire would like to feel that like, okay, we're going to get this out of the way. I'm going to show up for spring training. I'm going to be a hitting coach, no more questions asked. But as you can see, I think this is creating a lot more questions.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: And you know, as Amy pointed out, she thinks he cheated and a lot of people do and a lot of people are going to - you know, the debate has just started, really, now on Mark McGwire.</s>ROBERTS: Well, also the self-serving statements were not limited to Mark McGwire yesterday. Bud Selig, the commissioner of baseball, says this marks the end of an era in steroids in pro ball.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: Let's not forget - and it's a good point to raise, Commissioner Bud Selig - many people feel he was very culpable on this, that he was the commissioner, he should have known what was going on, that baseball owners should have known what was going on, that other players, that baseball managers, people who are looking askance at what Tony La Russa, Mark McGwire's manager in Oakland and St. Louis, said yesterday. McGwire said - excuse me - La Russa said yesterday when McGwire called him was the first he knew of this.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: Well, you know, we're going to take him for his word, but there are a lot of people who are skeptical about that, including Jose Canseco, the infamous Jose Canseco, who, every time one of these things happen he seems to be proven right, even though a lot of people don't trust his motives. But Jose Canseco said Tony La Russa talked in the past about my, Jose Canseco's, drug use, and so he knew about this stuff.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: So, yes, a lot of people are culpable. General managers in the so-called steroid era reportedly would talk amongst themselves, do I want to trade for this player - because he's got the steroid reputation? People knew it was going on. And so let's not just focus on Mark McGwire after he did this very difficult thing. There are questions that he still needs to answer. But there are questions that a lot of people still need to answer.</s>ROBERTS: We have an email from Billy(ph) in the DeKalb, Illinois, who says, I don't get the outrage against MM. He admitted using them for his own health purposes. Why can't we just believe him? Furthermore, how about his and Sosa's revitalizing the game after the disaster of '94? He's much more a hero than a villain, I think.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: Well, good points, and you know, everyone has their threshold. I mean, there are, you know, I've always said that to be a fan of professional sports in this day and age, you have to suspend a certain level of belief. You know, if you want to believe a guy for what he said and then just say that's it, I'm going back to the ball park, fine, that's your - that's your decision. On the other hand, people will say that, wonderful, miraculous home run duel was based on fraud.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: You know, there are some pretty strong allegations against Sammy Sosa. And I think a lot of people are now saying, well, that's the next foot to drop. So - and then we will know that the entire race, because McGwire admitted yesterday that he was taking banned performance-enhancing drugs during that '99, 1998 home run dual, you know, is based on a fraud. So each fan, each person has to, you know, decide for themselves.</s>ROBERTS: You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>ROBERTS: Let's hear from Brett(ph) in Portland, Oregon. Brett, welcome to TALK OF THE NATION</s>BRETT (Caller): Oh, thank you. I - my comment is that - well, first of all, I played against Mark McGwire in college and he didn't need steroids to hi home runs. He can hit them out of any ball park. But the - my point was that in terms of that generation of players, management didn't necessarily discourage the players from taking performance-enhancing steroids.</s>ROBERTS: Is that true, Tom?</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: Absolutely. And Brett, as a former ball player, knows this is as well as anyone. You know, there was the famous advertisement during that era when, I think it was the two Atlanta pitchers, John Smoltz and maybe Tom Glavine and in the catch line was: Chicks dig the long ball. Home runs paid off. I mean, McGwire and Sosa was just the start of this, really, or, you know, when it crested. And the home run was the thing that put people back in the seats after that very damaging work stoppage in '94 and '95.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: And so, yeah, why are you going to fool with your meal ticket, you know? If everyone's making a lot of money and things are going well - yeah. You promote it or at least you don't object too strenuously against it.</s>ROBERTS: Well, outside of the specific circumstances of McGwire's admission and what he may or may not have done, this comes in a context of a bunch of fallen athletic heroes - you know, Gilbert Arenas and Tiger Woods. And it's sort of one more, optimistically, opportunity to talk to kids who are fans about how to handle these things. What's the message to upcoming baseball fans here?</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: Boy, that's a tough one. I think there are lots of different messages. I mean, the easy one is don't do drugs. But I don't think kids listen to that as much as we'd like them to listen to. I think as long as drugs are - as long as these banned drugs are banned and against the law - laws of the sport - then it is cheating to use them.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: I mean, there's a whole dialogue to have about, hey, maybe we should open it up and legalize these and medically monitor these drugs. But until that happens, players who use are getting an unfair advantage and it's not fair to the fans, it's not fair to the fellow players, it's not fair to the record books, which so many sports fans love.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: So I - you know, what I did personally, I set my kids my down, who are 11 and 14, I sat them down to watch the Bob Costas interview with Mark McGwire last night. They knew the shorthand version of it. I said, kids, do you know who this guy is? They said, yeah, baseball player, cheated, and he admitted he used drugs. Okay. But I wanted them to see the emotion and I wanted to see how, you know, when you do something like this, it's pretty wrenching. And I think they got it.</s>ROBERTS: And you think they got it more from watching that interview than just you saying don't do drugs?</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: Absolutely. I mean, to see a big strong guy like Mark McGwire with his lip quivering and him crying and admitting, you know, a number of things, although as we said he didn't admit others, yeah, I think that was a pretty powerful image for them to see.</s>ROBERTS: Tom Goldman, NPR's sports correspondent, with us from his office in Portland, Oregon. Thanks, Tom.</s>Mr. TOM GOLDMAN: My pleasure.