Deputy A.G. Rod Rosenstein's Job in Limbo
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Thank you, Anderson. I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME. Should I stay or should I go? No Joe Strummer, sadly, but the clash between Rosenstein and Trump is in full effect. The deputy A.G.'s fate has been up and down all day. First, we were told he resigned. Then, it was that he was expecting to be fired. Then he was summoned to the White House, but the president wasn't there. Then he met with John Kelly, and then they decided to decide later. And what day did they pick of all days? Thursday. So on that loaded day, we may learn the fate of Judge Kavanaugh and the Russia probe. Think of that. And speaking of the probe, very few people know exactly what happened in that infamous Trump Tower meeting. Rob Goldstone is one of them. And guess what? He's the one who set up that sit-down with Don Jr. and the Russians and he's ready to tell all live to us tonight. And as more women come forward with allegations about Judge Kavanaugh, a familiar face is at the mike once more. Michael Avenatti says he could have one or more women with stories that he says must be heard. The questions, who and what do they know? He answers tonight. So much for easing into the week, right? What do you say? Let's get after it.</s>CUOMO: All right. I argue the big story of the day is Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. The question, fired, resigning, or maybe neither? All seem equal probabilities, after a cuckoo day of falls starts. The drama surrounding the Justice Department's number two played out today with a morning meeting with Chief of Staff John Kelly, who told associates that he had accepted Rosenstein's resignation Friday. Then, "Axios" reported the A.G., Jeff Sessions, had already drafted a letter thanking Rosenstein and charting a path forward. Then, nothing. President Trump today promised this.</s>DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm meeting with Rod Rosenstein on Thursday, when I get back from all of these meetings. And we'll be meeting at the White House and we'll be determining what's going on. We want to have transparency, we want to have openness, and I look forward to meeting with Rod at that time.</s>CUOMO: All right. No vote of confidence, but no "he's done" either. So, remember, Rosenstein denied not once, but twice, that he ever sought to record the president or plot his removal from office. Is that good enough? Let's talk to somebody on the inside, elected by the people to lead a district in Florida, Congressman Matt Gaetz. Good to have you back on PRIME TIME. Thanks for being here.</s>REP. MATT GAETZ (R), FLORIDA: Good to be with you.</s>CUOMO: So, what a day. I mean, that was a fair reckoning of the events.</s>GAETZ: What a day to start let's get after it radio.</s>CUOMO: And thank you for being on the show, SiriusXM 124, if case you're wondering.</s>GAETZ: The newsiest day of the year.</s>CUOMO: It was pretty newsy. And when I was talking to you then, you were like, look, I have pretty good sourcing, we don't know what's going to happen for sure, but I would be unsurprised if he's not working for the United States government tomorrow. Well, now we know, he should be working for the government tomorrow.</s>GAETZ: Correct.</s>CUOMO: But now it could be Thursday. Do you like that choice of day, by the way?</s>GAETZ: I don't know. I know the president right now is working with world leaders right here at the U.N., high stakes, trade, national security issues, dealing with Russia, Syria, ballistic missiles and missile defense. So, no surprise that the president wouldn't want to be distracted from that important work today. To me, the important thing is, we've got to get the facts and we've got to get them under oath. Because when you've just got these reports coming out of the White House that are conflicting, what did he say, what did he not say --</s>CUOMO: Right.</s>GAETZ: -- what context --</s>CUOMO: How do you get him under oath?</s>GAETZ: Well, you bring him to the Judiciary Committee. We have oversight responsibility over the Department of Justice.</s>CUOMO: How was Judiciary?</s>GAETZ: We do. We could call him in --</s>CUOMO: No, I know, but you think he should go to the House Judiciary Committee, put up his hand, be asked about that article?</s>GAETZ: Yes, and to start, who was in the room? Because let's take the facts that are most favorable to Rod Rosenstein, that he was joking, that it was a moment to relieve tension. I don't think it's appropriate to joke about taking an action against the institution of the presidency while you're overseeing an investigation --</s>CUOMO: Fireable?</s>GAETZ: Probably. Probably, depending on the context, to even joke about it. I mean, look, I look back to General Mattis' reaction when he was asked about some of the things in the Woodward book. He said, not only would I not say those things, I would not tolerate them at the Department of Defense. We should not have a different standard for the Department of Defense and Department of Justice --</s>CUOMO: Do we know for fact that Mattis didn't say those things that he's quoted saying --</s>GAETZ: What we have is a denial with Mattis. What we don't have is a denial with Rosenstein --</s>CUOMO: Is that true?</s>GAETZ: Oh, yes, Mattis unequivocally --</s>CUOMO: No, no, I know Mattis did. But you don't like those two denials from Rosenstein?</s>GAETZ: Well, what I don't like about those denials is that he does not explicitly deny saying that he raised the prospect of wearing a wire on the president.</s>CUOMO: You think he's a little cute in the denials?</s>GAETZ: I do. And if you look at him, he really does leave that prospect open. But it's unfair to the country for you and I to be having this discussion in the absence of facts under oath. That's the only way we're going to get it done. And here's what I worry about, Chris. I think that our leadership wants to send us home at the end of the week and tell us to go campaign for the midterms and that we won't really get these answers. Rod Rosenstein's impeachment can be brought up for a vote by any member of Congress at this point. It lights a two-day fuse. Mark Meadows and I have said, if we don't get these answers under oath, we may invoke that vote to keep the Congress in town so that we can get to the bottom of this.</s>CUOMO: That wouldn't make you very popular.</s>GAETZ: I'm already not very popular.</s>CUOMO: You are here. Let's talk about the popularity of the ultimate move, OK? So let's say it plays out your way. That Thursday isn't satisfying for the president, he wants to know more, or not. And let's say he is okay with it and there winds up being a move. Forcing him to resign or firing him. Which would you prefer?</s>GAETZ: I don't have a preference. To me, it's more about whether or not the department of justice can be trusted to execute their mission. With Rosenstein, it's the guy who hired Mueller the day after Trump said he wasn't going to hire Mueller to be the FBI director. It's the guy who signed the FISA warrant. It's the guy that many in Congress believe improperly redacting information that we have a right to see --</s>CUOMO: The guy Trump picked.</s>GAETZ: Yes, well, no, true. Absolutely true. Fair point. But I think the president has illuminated his thinking on that, it was the beginning of the administration, it was who Jeff Sessions wanted, and now you see Jeff Sessions, barely the attorney general, on the most important investigation in the country.</s>CUOMO: There is a practical consideration here, though here, and a political one, obviously. If he resigns, legally, the president replaces the two positions, deputy attorney general, attorney general in charge of the Russia investigation, he has both hats. He can do it, replacing them. If he fires Rosenstein, then he can't. Then he's got to put up a nominee, go to the Senate for confirmation. There's a process. So, it matters from a practicality standpoint.</s>GAETZ: Yes, it's just not something that a member of Congress has any impact or influence over. To me, the bigger question is, are you going to allow this activity to occur within the administration? We know that there are people inside the Trump administration that are actively working against the president. The deputy attorney general should not be one of them.</s>CUOMO: And he says he isn't, in fairness to him. He wasn't under oath. True enough.</s>GAETZ: He does (ph).</s>CUOMO: Now you have the other specter of this. If Rosenstein goes, friends over at Fox say, don't do it, it's a trap. They're looking to set you up and saying, this was your move on Mueller. Don't take the bait. You've heard this theory. But it also does show something else. No matter if it's because of what Rosenstein says with his hand up or otherwise, it is a move by Trump ostensibly to stop the probe. Does he want that on his account for 2020?</s>GAETZ: I don't know. I think that the chief of staff would be the appropriate person in the event of a staff member being derelict in their duty or being recalcitrant to the goals of the administration. So, I think there's a way to do it, to isolate the president. I'm not an expert --</s>CUOMO: I don't think Kelly can fire him. I don't think Kelly can fire Rosenstein.</s>GAETZ: Well, you may be right about that.</s>CUOMO: I think he can carry it out, but I don't -- I think the order has to come from the commander in chief.</s>GAETZ: Well, I would have no basis to dispute that. So, I mean, look, I am not aware of what the political implications would be. I'll freely admit that. But you just can't live in a world where you've got someone leading an agency, sowing discord within that agency. And again, we can't know until we get the testimony on the record. That's why that's -- like, so often in Washington, we want to jump to the conclusion, without engaging in the process. You were critical of this, on the Kavanaugh matter. You said you wanted more investigation, more of the facts to be out, and that we shouldn't be out saying the man is guilty or innocent in the absence of that factual development. I feel the same way regarding Rosenstein.</s>CUOMO: And, look, you saw Kavanaugh's interview tonight at Fox, right? We can talk about his choice of Fox for that kind of interview, what that portrays, whatever. But he's playing it safe right now.</s>GAETZ: Martha MacCallum is a pretty solid journalist. I think it's a great choice.</s>CUOMO: I'm sure you do. However, what he does with optics is one thing. In terms of what is done to him, that's something else. My concern, from a procedural process is, if you're Kavanaugh and this seems rushed or they don't really process the allegations or people don't get a chance or they don't talk to the people they could, looks like you're trying to protect him. And then he's stained by speculation. Whereas, if his truth is as 100 percent as he says in that interview, if I were he, I'd be say, Gaetz -- well, you know, you're in Congress. I'd be saying to the senators, bring them all in. Anybody who says that they have something to say, bring them in. Have the FBI look, because I want this to be 100 percent. I have nothing to hide.</s>GAETZ: So when we last had this discussion, there was one accuser. I propose the hypothesis that if you are to do just what you've described and at every inflection point launch a new investigation, then this becomes an interminable process. That next week, the following week, there could be some other allegation with no evidence, with no substantiation, with plenty of contradictions, and that could extend the process further. What I predicted is precisely what has happened.</s>CUOMO: But there are two possibilities. One is, you were right, and this is the variability of criticism. That if there's an opportunity, it will grow. Or, it's, you have similar allegations that suggest a pattern of behavior with somebody who needs to answer for it.</s>GAETZ: And the reason I think that's less likely is because this is a man who's been confirmed before, he's been investigated by the FBI six times before. He's been serving on what many call the second highest court in the land in D.C. So, I think if this was a pattern of the man's behavior, it just seems so bizarre that you would see this spike in not only one allegation, but multiple allegations at this point. Also worth noting, you were critical of Democrats for sitting on the information with the first allegation.</s>CUOMO: Don't think it looks good.</s>GAETZ: It smells political opportunity (ph). I think that this Ramirez allegation would supercharge that concern on your part because it is even more delayed. Feinstein sat on it with for an even longer period of time. The accuser needed six days with lawyers to be able to make the point. And so, I think that if you had concerns with the Ford allegations, there's no way that those concerns would be diminished by the Ramirez allegations.</s>CUOMO: The only way you know, though, as you're saying, is put them under oath, do an investigation, get some answers. Congressman Gaetz, thank you for being on PRIME TIME, as always.</s>GAETZ: Thank you.</s>CUOMO: I'll see you again.</s>GAETZ: Congrats on the radio show.</s>CUOMO: Thank you very much. And we'll see how it plays out Thursday. What a day that's going to be. So, what happens next? We're talking about Congressman Matt Gaetz, it's a big deal, there's a difference whether or not Rosenstein resigns or he's fired on Thursday. There is an easy path for the president short-term. But it could cause even more problems long-term. It's complicated, but not when we lay it out for you on the magic wall, next.