Interview With David Tseng, Joshua Baker
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Emotional issues like gay marriage, well they get great play in a 24 hour news cycle. The story, though, can end up spinning around in endless sound bytes. Our hot topic tonight tackles the bottom line of both sides. We have two people who can really spell it out for us. David Tseng is executive director of Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays. And Joshua Baker is an attorney at the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy. I am glad to have both of you. What we're trying to do is get beyond the spin and the rhetoric, and really understand on a fundamental level, why each of you believe as you do. Let me begin with you, David. Why is it that civil unions is not enough?</s>DAVID TSENG, PFLAG: The General Accounting Office, the audit and evaluation agency for the U.S. Congress, did a study in 1997 that concluded there are over 1,000 federal benefits that are denied to same sex couples and their families.</s>LIN: Like what?</s>TSENG: That -- like Social Security survivor benefits, like significant tax penalties that are imposed on same sex couples when one of the partners dies. And...</s>LIN: Tax penalties?</s>TSENG: Relating to retirement plans. As well as taxation of health premiums, because domestic partners are not defined under the Internal Revenue Code.</s>LIN: Give me some real life examples? Give me some real life examples?</s>TSENG: Sure.</s>LIN: I mean, what situations have you encountered where this was truly an issue? I mean, anybody, for example, Social Security benefits, anybody who's experienced a death in the family understands that in a trauma situation like that, you have to deal with this issue of whether you're going to receive benefits or not.</s>TSENG: In so many states, Carol, partners are not defined as spouses or even next of kin. So they can't get to them. Or in times of medical emergency, and are denied access to hospital emergency rooms. In many states, same sex couples cannot adopt children as two parents. And so, parents often don't have legal standing to fight for custody of their children.</s>LIN: Why don't they just move to a state where gay adoption is allowed? Why don't they just set up legal documentation, like attorneys -- with an attorney to have the right to determine medical decisions for a loved one in case of a crisis? I mean, there are alternatives, aren't there, other than marriage?</s>TSENG: What this goes to is uneven treatment as -- among American citizens, Carol. And in fact, there is an inconsistency among the states as to what exactly legal standing would be if the relationship is not recognized as a marriage.</s>LIN: Joshua, oftentimes the conservative point of view on this, opposing gay marriage, and I have to say, you know, it's not always conservative because John Kerry as a Democrat also opposes gay marriage, but supports civil union, it gets reduced to a Judeo- Christian argument that marriage is a sacrament, created by God. Can you take that further for me? I mean, what really is the issue here with the "M" word, marriage?</s>JOSHUA BAKER, INSTITUTE FOR MARRIAGE AND PUBLIC POLICY: Let's start with what we know about marriage. We know that every child has a mother and a father, whether they have a chance to know the mother and know the father or not. We know from thousands of studies over the last 30 years that when mothers and fathers fail to get married, more bad things happen to more kids more often, whether that be poverty or educational failure, juvenile delinquency. And we also know that throughout every known society, for all of history, marriage has been the idea that brings men and women together to both create the next generation, provide mothers and fathers for children...</s>LIN: But if you're talking about parenting...</s>BAKER: ...that's what marriage is about.</s>LIN: ...I mean, if you're talking about parenting, I mean, a gay marriage creates a family. It just happens to be of two women or two men. And isn't it better that two people, who can create an economic and emotional support system for a child, be allowed to adopt that child and have equal rights?</s>BAKER: Marriage, though, is about providing the ideal and creating the ideal for people to live up to. Marriage, I mean, two men, no matter how good a father they might be, can never be a mother for a child. And two women can't be a dad for a child. And if we believe that mothers and fathers matter for children, then marriage is that ideal that we try to get adults to channel their lives into such a way that they can provide for their children, a mother and a father, and give their children a chance to know and love their mother and father.</s>LIN: But that's indicts all the single mothers and single fathers out there for not doing a good job themselves?</s>BAKER: But it doesn't because we believe that single mothers may do a wonderful job raising their kids. And we want to help those mothers do a great job raising their kids. And yet, we still understand that for 30 years, we've seen the fact that a single mother does a wonderful job, but she's still not the same. She's not a dad to her child. And she can't provide that dad by herself.</s>LIN: David, when you hear this argument, based on, I'm going to interpret this, family values, what do you want to get across?</s>TSENG: That approximately one million children in this country are being raised successfully by same sex couples. And that to deny the couple standing as equals, and as well as the economic and legal protections is to penalize the children. When in fact, these children need stable, loving homes, where you have two adults in a legal relationship, who share the parenthood and the responsibilities. Marriage equality benefits neighborhoods and communities and harms no one.</s>LIN: Each of you, very quickly, 10 seconds a piece, starting with you, Joshua, you look at the San Francisco situation, what is the best outcome you can hope for on your side of it?</s>BAKER: This is ultimately a question about who's going to make the decisions about marriage in our country. Are we going to leave the decision to a mayor who thinks he's above the law and is going to set aside the clear law of the state? Are we going to leave it to four judges who disagree with three of their colleagues in Massachusetts? Or are we going to let the people of this country have a voice on marriage? Are we going to let them be heard as to what marriage is and should be for our children?</s>LIN: David?</s>TSENG: Let's look at the CNN/"USA Today" poll that found that over 61 percent of Americans ages 18 to 29 support marriage equality. The future lies with fairness. And what's important this year is that we're having an open discussion about this key issue for countless families across the country.</s>LIN: All right, the two of you, this is not the end of it. And plus, we're looking forward to what happens Tuesday when we see what happens at that court injunction in California -- San Francisco. Thank you very much, David Tseng, executive director Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, as well as Joshua Baker, attorney for the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com