Police Response to Ferguson Protests
HARLOW: Welcome back. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. We continue to follow the unfolding situation in Ferguson, Missouri, that has brought the conversation about race relations in America right to the fore. CNN commentator Ben Ferguson, also Marc Lamont Hill, join me now know. Thank you both for being here. Ben is in Dallas, Marc is in Ferguson, Missouri. And before I begin, I want you both to listen to remarks from a guest that I spoke with here on the program last night. He says this incident has been blown out of proportion. Listen.</s>KEVIN JACKSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THE BLACK SPHERE LLC: America is not the racist enclave that everybody says that it is, that the cops are not targeting black people, neither are white folks. I asked you a second ago, I said, why don't you give diversity training to the people going to the football game? We meld every single day. We meld at restaurants. We meld at schools. We meld as a nation, as part of the mosaic every day in multiple ways. Just as the police help people every single day, but we take a situation like this, we blow it out of proportion, because that's what happened, we want to set the narrative that one side is good, the other side is bad, and that is what's bad.</s>HARLOW: Marc Lamont Hill, you're in Ferguson, you just left the rally there, along with the family of Michael Brown and many others, Is this situation being blown out of proportion?</s>MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely not. You know, the energy here in Ferguson is very much reflective of what we see around the country, and that is black and brown people saying we have had enough. This isn't about one isolated incident. This is about black bodies being vulnerable in public space every single day. And Michael Brown and Ferguson, the microcosm of a broader problem we see in America, and that's why you see this reaction. The fact that police haven't been transparent. The fact that they've been antagonizing the crowd -- I was out here last night and had teargas shot at me. So there's absolutely no way we could see this as anything other than a crisis that warrants this level of attention.</s>HARLOW: You had teargas shot at you for what?</s>HILL: We were out here -- we were out here beyond midnight, peaceful protesting, though. There was absolutely no violence at this moment, there was no antagonism. We were peacefully protesting, saying hands up, don't shoot. The crowd was out there. Police moved forward in their vehicles, military-style vehicles, and -- although they said teargas wasn't going to be shot, teargas was shot, we ran. Another kid was shot, not by police, but I'm saying that's the level of confusion that came after the teargas was fired. It was a very, very ugly place.</s>HARLOW: Ben, to you, I guess, had you and our viewers listen to Kevin Jackson. Also said to me last night in our conversation that, look, diversity training is not what is needed here. That is frankly not the solution. Having faith leaders go out and try to work the community, not the solution. What is your take? What is the solution?</s>BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, Marc just brought up a huge point. I would challenge Marc and others to obey what they're trying to do to try to restore order, which is if you want to cause problems, if you want this to continue to spiral out of control, stay out past midnight and don't respect the authorities. The African-Americans have been put in charge of the situation, to regain the trust, yet you're still not listening to them. And I think that's one of the issues here. Some of the people I think are wanting to have this excitement, wanting to have this rage, and wanting to have this continue on, when the governor I think did the right thing. He said here is a man that we're going to put in charge, an African- American man that can talk with the community, that can go out and try to get this to calm down a little bit, and to be peaceful. Yet Marc acts like he's a victim when he's the one that broke the rule last night after midnight, and saying just because they're peaceful, that doesn't mean you don't -- you get to break the rules. So as long as we continue to have this I think we're going to have problems.</s>HARLOW: Marc? Marc?</s>HILL: Ben, it also -- it also doesn't mean that the -- it also doesn't mean that we should invite or that it should be warranting military-style response. Again, this is the whole problem with Michael Brown. The kid was jaywalking --</s>FERGUSON: But I think because you're antagonizing after midnight.</s>HILL: Let me finish the point. But being black in public space is an antagonism in and of itself. Michael Brown was just walking down the street and they're saying he's antagonizing police. We're peacefully protesting and they're shooting teargas and ultimately firing weapons. Martin Luther King violated the law. Violated the law.</s>HARLOW: Police have said that they --</s>HILL: Sitting in was violating the laws. All of this stuff is a violation of the law but we always push back.</s>HARLOW: One second to be clear here. Let me say something, Ben. To be clear here, to Marc's point, police did say there that overnight no shot was fired by police overnight last night. I want to make that clear. And I want to ask you both, but I'll begin with you, Ben. I'll go to you, Marc.</s>FERGUSON: Correct.</s>HILL: Absolutely.</s>HARLOW: This is an important question. There's been a lot of talk about the 53-member police force in Ferguson that has three African- Americans on it. Is it important, do you think, Ben, to have more black police officers as part of that force?</s>FERGUSON: I don't have a problem with that. But my concern is this. Are we saying that we want segregation? Because that's the only way that it's going to be fair in minority communities? I mean, I thought we didn't want to have segregation saying that only African-American cops can police African-Americans, only white cops can police white Americans, only Hispanic cops can police Hispanic people.</s>HILL: That's not the point.</s>FERGUSON: I don't think -- let me finish. I don't think it's funny. But this is my point. They wanted to have --</s>HILL: But I think a lot of this is funny.</s>FERGUSON: Let me finish.</s>HARLOW: Let Ben finish.</s>FERGUSON: Let me finish.</s>HARLOW: Please let Ben finish.</s>FERGUSON: Marc, many in the African-American communities, just like you're saying you want African-Americans in charge. You have an African-American that now is in charge, and you absolutely do not obey him by staying after midnight last night and then acting like you're a victim when teargas is shot. My point is, if an African-American in charge, you won't listen to him, what difference does it make if it's a white cop? Because it sounds like you're not going to listen to him, either.</s>HARLOW: Marc, to you. Does that -- Marc, to you, does the police force there need to have more African-American members? Or is it not about what race you are as part of the police force? Is it about policing in a way and being -- having more communication is what we've heard is needed between the community members and the police?</s>HILL: Absolutely. And I apologize for interrupting Ben. There's a time delay. I would never interrupt my dear friend Ben Ferguson. But I think it's not either-or, I think it's both end. I think on the one hand, black people didn't march so that they could be beaten by black cops. We don't want to integrate a police force who are going to replicate the very same patterns of brutality and terrorism. I don't want that. I want black cops who are well trained. I want white cops who are well-trained. It's entirely possible to have an all-white police force that can engage in community policing that doesn't violate people's rights and that respects the community. That is possible. But still in a town that's 70 percent black it's mind-boggling there are only three black police officers on the force. That's reflective of a broader structure of racism and I'll say white supremacy that we have to deal with not just in Ferguson but around the country. This is a broader international issue that we have to deal with.</s>FERGUSON: Sir?</s>HILL: Ferguson and Michael Brown speak for everybody.</s>FERGUSON: Here's my thing. Do you want segregation in African- American communities? Are you saying that it needs to be definitely proportionate to the African-American population, which is segregation?</s>HILL: It's not about segregation, Ben. Having black people in a black town as police officers isn't segregation. It's reflective of the needs of community. White officers -- not traditionally, white officers often have been insensitive to the needs and the culture and the practices of black people. But again black officers often do the same thing. Putting a black person as a business manager for the same racist structure does not make black people feel better. We're not advocating for different police. We're advocating for better police.</s>HARLOW: You know what I think is clear? I want you to both stick around. We're going to talk more about this later on the show. We're also going to have you talk about the situation between the United States and Iraq right now. But what is important I think that you both agree, and everyone agrees on, is that there needs to be a lot more and a lot better communication between the police force there and the people on the ground there. We'll be right back after a quick break. As I said we're going to talk about this as the U.S. conducts air strikes in an effort to retake a very strategic dam in Iraq. Is it going to be enough? How much is the situation going to escalate? How much is the U.S. going to get involved? Our experts weigh in, next.