{"action":"created","issue":{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/d3athrow/vgstation13/issues/3856","labels_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/d3athrow/vgstation13/issues/3856/labels{/name}","comments_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/d3athrow/vgstation13/issues/3856/comments","events_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/d3athrow/vgstation13/issues/3856/events","html_url":"https://github.com/d3athrow/vgstation13/issues/3856","id":67509540,"number":3856,"title":"The Economy's Fucked. Let's figure out why.","user":{"login":"DrCelt","id":7193289,"avatar_url":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/7193289?v=3","gravatar_id":"","url":"https://api.github.com/users/DrCelt","html_url":"https://github.com/DrCelt","followers_url":"https://api.github.com/users/DrCelt/followers","following_url":"https://api.github.com/users/DrCelt/following{/other_user}","gists_url":"https://api.github.com/users/DrCelt/gists{/gist_id}","starred_url":"https://api.github.com/users/DrCelt/starred{/owner}{/repo}","subscriptions_url":"https://api.github.com/users/DrCelt/subscriptions","organizations_url":"https://api.github.com/users/DrCelt/orgs","repos_url":"https://api.github.com/users/DrCelt/repos","events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/DrCelt/events{/privacy}","received_events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/DrCelt/received_events","type":"User","site_admin":false},"labels":[],"state":"open","locked":false,"assignee":null,"milestone":null,"comments":13,"created_at":"2015-04-10T04:56:14Z","updated_at":"2015-04-10T12:14:35Z","closed_at":null,"body":"## Why the economy is fucked.\r\n\r\n* If we take the balance of payments, it's atrocious; due to two things\r\n   * Lots of expenditure, (in numerous avenues), but mostly cargo.\r\n   * Barely any income, only via mining, which does not get distributed.\r\n* Culture. - It's not within the culture of the station to pay for things other than as a gimmick.\r\n   * Is it because the system is obnoxious as fuck to use?\r\n   * this'll probably be the hardest one to change \r\n* Currency has literally no value.\r\n   * Not backed by anything (fiat)\r\n   * Possible to print unlimited money \r\n\r\n## How can we fix it?\r\n* Make shit easier to use\r\n* Make departments compete as to who has the most money?\r\n* Add money systems to player-stocked vending machines?\r\n* Remove the way to print unlimited money please\r\n* Make cargo change on points again so as to reduce the outflow of station cash out of the economy?\r\n* Make vending machines money go to cargo's account?\r\n\r\n## How can we not fix it?\r\n* Don't import the system goon has where they pay every X minutes or whatever, this'll just lead to inflation and doesn't fix the problem at all\r\n\r\nPlease comment as to your opinion on this issue as to what the problems are, how we can fix it and ways not to fix it."},"comment":{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/d3athrow/vgstation13/issues/comments/91534905","html_url":"https://github.com/d3athrow/vgstation13/issues/3856#issuecomment-91534905","issue_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/d3athrow/vgstation13/issues/3856","id":91534905,"user":{"login":"Probe1","id":8550416,"avatar_url":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/8550416?v=3","gravatar_id":"","url":"https://api.github.com/users/Probe1","html_url":"https://github.com/Probe1","followers_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Probe1/followers","following_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Probe1/following{/other_user}","gists_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Probe1/gists{/gist_id}","starred_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Probe1/starred{/owner}{/repo}","subscriptions_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Probe1/subscriptions","organizations_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Probe1/orgs","repos_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Probe1/repos","events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Probe1/events{/privacy}","received_events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Probe1/received_events","type":"User","site_admin":false},"created_at":"2015-04-10T12:14:35Z","updated_at":"2015-04-10T12:14:35Z","body":"Alrighty.  I'm on my second cup and I'm ready to talk about something I've given a great deal of thought and energy towards improving through the means I have had available to me.  The in game economy.  Over the last few months that I've been active in reporting bugs and making suggestions I've encouraged coders to add things that cost money (notably Deity Links PDA apps) and remove things that make transactions irrelevant (The RSF producing free cigarettes).  \r\n\r\nI strongly believe that the economy cannot and will not be fixed with any big PR.  It has to be systematically improved through many approaches and I will discuss them here.\r\n\r\n##Whats wrong\r\n\r\nThe economy is broadly speaking, a failure.  This stems from a few primary sources and a multitude of lesser ones.  The primary sources that undermine the economy are:  The ease of creating free money and goods, the difficulty in distributing money, and the lack of sources to earn and spend money.  The lesser reasons are the ease of getting free goods and lack of essential goods that cost money.\r\n\r\nThe ease of money is something we can knock out today.  Patch out the ability to make infinite money and drop the station account from the absurd  75000 credits to 5000-10000.  There is no reason to have that much money and it's a huge oversight that minimizes the importance of an economy entirely by itself.  Also tied into this is the asstons of money that miners will make.  On a good day I can mine upwards of 40,000 credits worth of money.  That's enough to give every single player during average pop 1000 credits, and that in itself is enough to last a player a several hour shift.  So not only does the station account need rebalanced and the infinite money removed, but mining needs to either return to a voucher and cargo points system or the income needs to be dropped by a factor (and the mining vending machine prices rebalanced to reflect that!).  \r\n\r\nThe second primary issue is that we do not have an automated payment system and we need it.  Either goons approach, or what @CptWad suggested, or a novel idea that isn't listed needs to be applied.  Relying on Heads who may not be there and likely won't be interested in acting as a Head of a Department even if they are there is an empirical failure.  We have all the data we can ask for from months and months of playing under this system and rarely seeing a Head ever release department funds or players ask their Head to do so.  I cannot accept disagreement on this point because we have the proof we need through experience - it just does not work.  \r\n\r\nThere needs to be ways for players to earn money without relying on other players or else the system falls apart.  Our playerbase (and for that matter, other playerbases) are interested in playing spessmen.  They didn't come here to play Recettear: An Item Shop's Tale IN SPESS.  It'd be a cool game but it isn't our game.  Having Player to Player (PtP) interactions be the primary economy will not work.  So we need more Player to Station (PtS) interactions.  Again, @CptWad brought up one idea and goon has another.  These both will work.  Assuming this point is settled and we now have ways to earn income, what do we spend it on?  Food?  I can hack a vending machine to spit free food out at me.  Materials?  Miners, botanists, and other methods can get them to me for free.  There are lots of things that only cargo can deliver but the cost values are a hodge podge of what the coder that wrote them felt like at the time and lack any central planning or guide.  So even the lowliest account balance can afford what they need that couldn't be acquired elsewhere.  \r\n\r\n\r\n On player to player economy, I have a simple example to illustrate my disdain for the idea.  How do engineers make money?  How does security make money?  Are they supposed to ignore crime until someone pays up?  Shut off the power until your payment comes through?  Not only does the idea of PtP economy leave half of the players flapping in the wind, it pisses them off that they're working for free and RnD wants a fat stack of shekels they don't have for something to improve their efficiency at their job.  If someone is charging money I will go around them.  Every single time.  A chef that wants what may be a reasonable cost for his time but an exorbitant price compared to pizzas from cargo,  A scientist who wants to charge for items but finds his costumers would rather ask a mechanic or break into the MoMMI nest and make it themselves.  PtP economy can exist but it will always be a minor aspect when 90% of the things players really want are through the cargo console which is a PtS interaction.  "}}