{"action":"created","issue":{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/magarena/magarena/issues/188","labels_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/magarena/magarena/issues/188/labels{/name}","comments_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/magarena/magarena/issues/188/comments","events_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/magarena/magarena/issues/188/events","html_url":"https://github.com/magarena/magarena/issues/188","id":67988240,"number":188,"title":"How well is \"untap [amount] lands\" used by the AI?","user":{"login":"melvinzhang","id":1620634,"avatar_url":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1620634?v=3","gravatar_id":"","url":"https://api.github.com/users/melvinzhang","html_url":"https://github.com/melvinzhang","followers_url":"https://api.github.com/users/melvinzhang/followers","following_url":"https://api.github.com/users/melvinzhang/following{/other_user}","gists_url":"https://api.github.com/users/melvinzhang/gists{/gist_id}","starred_url":"https://api.github.com/users/melvinzhang/starred{/owner}{/repo}","subscriptions_url":"https://api.github.com/users/melvinzhang/subscriptions","organizations_url":"https://api.github.com/users/melvinzhang/orgs","repos_url":"https://api.github.com/users/melvinzhang/repos","events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/melvinzhang/events{/privacy}","received_events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/melvinzhang/received_events","type":"User","site_admin":false},"labels":[{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/magarena/magarena/labels/question","name":"question","color":"cc317c"}],"state":"open","locked":false,"assignee":null,"milestone":{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/magarena/magarena/milestones/2","html_url":"https://github.com/magarena/magarena/milestones/1.61","labels_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/magarena/magarena/milestones/2/labels","id":1036585,"number":2,"title":"1.61","description":"Aim to complete by the release of version 1.61 (no pressure!).","creator":{"login":"lodici","id":2443519,"avatar_url":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/2443519?v=3","gravatar_id":"","url":"https://api.github.com/users/lodici","html_url":"https://github.com/lodici","followers_url":"https://api.github.com/users/lodici/followers","following_url":"https://api.github.com/users/lodici/following{/other_user}","gists_url":"https://api.github.com/users/lodici/gists{/gist_id}","starred_url":"https://api.github.com/users/lodici/starred{/owner}{/repo}","subscriptions_url":"https://api.github.com/users/lodici/subscriptions","organizations_url":"https://api.github.com/users/lodici/orgs","repos_url":"https://api.github.com/users/lodici/repos","events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/lodici/events{/privacy}","received_events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/lodici/received_events","type":"User","site_admin":false},"open_issues":7,"closed_issues":2,"state":"open","created_at":"2015-03-24T15:37:49Z","updated_at":"2015-04-13T02:17:20Z","due_on":"2015-04-29T23:00:00Z","closed_at":null},"comments":1,"created_at":"2015-04-13T02:17:20Z","updated_at":"2015-04-13T03:20:58Z","closed_at":null,"body":"@PalladiaMors any results from playtesting?"},"comment":{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/magarena/magarena/issues/comments/92183061","html_url":"https://github.com/magarena/magarena/issues/188#issuecomment-92183061","issue_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/magarena/magarena/issues/188","id":92183061,"user":{"login":"PalladiaMors","id":9581122,"avatar_url":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/9581122?v=3","gravatar_id":"","url":"https://api.github.com/users/PalladiaMors","html_url":"https://github.com/PalladiaMors","followers_url":"https://api.github.com/users/PalladiaMors/followers","following_url":"https://api.github.com/users/PalladiaMors/following{/other_user}","gists_url":"https://api.github.com/users/PalladiaMors/gists{/gist_id}","starred_url":"https://api.github.com/users/PalladiaMors/starred{/owner}{/repo}","subscriptions_url":"https://api.github.com/users/PalladiaMors/subscriptions","organizations_url":"https://api.github.com/users/PalladiaMors/orgs","repos_url":"https://api.github.com/users/PalladiaMors/repos","events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/PalladiaMors/events{/privacy}","received_events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/PalladiaMors/received_events","type":"User","site_admin":false},"created_at":"2015-04-13T03:20:58Z","updated_at":"2015-04-13T03:20:58Z","body":"First thing I want to say is that if you're not feeling comfortable with those, then I'm not comfortable with them either. I absolutely trust your judgement on this.\r\n\r\nMCTS at level 8 takes a long time to untap all the lands, period. MCTS at level 8 takes a long time to play an Island during turn 1, so I don't think this is entirely the card's fault. My opinion is, if the AI is playing a casual deck with one Palinchron or two Cloud of Faeries, this won't significantly increase the average game time. A deck full of those cards, I agree, would be annoying. I see this is a legitimate reason not to implement them, of course.\r\n\r\nAt level 8, MCTS *never* tried to untap my lands when playing one of these cards, which is good because that would rarely be good play.\r\n\r\nAt level 8, it doesn't always untap every land possible, which means it sometimes selects already untapped lands, doing the \"up to\" rule in practice. Looking at its hand when it didn't untap every card, I noticed that it didn't have any cards it could cast if it untapped every land it could, so it might have \"seen\" it as unnecessary or pointless, I don't know. If it wouldn't untap lands when it could use them, that would be a serious error. Whether or not that's happening and how frequently if it is would require further testing while looking at the AIs hand all the time. I'm willing to do that if you'd like.\r\n\r\nAs a Magic player. Historically, these cards are overpowered. This isn't the AI's fault or my fault, but WotC's fault. The reason they're overpowered, however, is how they combine with cards that generate multiple mana such as High Tide. Those cards aren't implemented, so at this point that's not a problem. If they were implemented, my opinion is that currently the AI has no chance to play reasonably well with a monster combo deck like Solidarity. In that case, they would imbalance the game in favour of the humans. As it is, without the type of cards that they combine well with, some of these are still pretty good cards like Frantic Search, some are really nothing special. Personally I don't see them as unbalancing in their current state.\r\n\r\nThe \"up to\" aspect. I noticed some cards with \"up to\" search onto hand/battlefield coded when I was trying to reach 50% in the Alliances set, which uses that mechanic a lot, and started copying them to add some other cards like Foresight, Korlash and Land Tax. This may be stupid but I swear at first I did *not* notice that those cards didn't allow you to choose less than the maximum number, I thought that the cards I had used as reference had been coded according to their text. For some reason I though you could hit the arrow button at any point to skip the remaining cards. Obviously that means that I clearly don't always playtest as carefully as I should. Only later I realized that was wrong, but then I had already added a bunch of those cards and then I though since that was already being done before, it would be fine.\r\n\r\nI submitted the two remaining \"untap up to X lands\" today because I noticed you ended up not removing them and I wanted to complete the cycle. The real beast - Time Spiral - had been left out. Here's the list for reference in case you decide to take them out:\r\n\r\nCloud of Faeries\r\nFrantic Search\r\nGreat Whale\r\nPalinchron\r\nPeregrine Drake\r\nRewind\r\nSnap\r\nTime Spiral\r\nTreachery\r\n\r\nHope this nearly insane dissertation about Magic actually somehow helped, rather than leave you confused!\r\n\r\nI won't hide that I would personally *love* to see the entire card pool - 100% of the cards, every single one - implemented. Rather than not implement something because the AI doesn't play it perfectly, I'd rather see the AI improved. I'm smart enough to understand that this might be harder to do than to just write, though.\r\n\r\nMy personal opinion about this particular subject is that whatever decision you, lodici and ShawnieBoy take is the correct decision and should be respected."}}