The brains of the tots ( before Bernie the Brain appeared , that is ) , assertive Sugar Plumm in a detail from an unpublished Sheldon Mayer newspaper strip sample , courtesy of Robin Snyder . Art © 2000 The Estate of Sheldon Mayer . Sugar © 2000 DC Comics . Opposite : Young Merrily Mayer trying to keep within the lines in this 1945 picture courtesy of the budding colorist . © 2000 Merrily Mayer Harris . I originally got in touch with Sheldon Mayer 's daughter , Merrily , a few years ago through her brother Lanney , who suggested that she might be able to help with some questions I had about their father . I was pleased to find that Merrily is an enthusiastic admirer of her father 's work and a limitless source of information pertaining to his life . When I began gathering material for this issue , Merrily supplied me with copies of family momentos including a cache of previously unpublished family photos , for which I am eternally grateful . This interview , copyedited by Merrily , began with a series of e - mails , was continued through the post and concluded with conversations conducted over the phone . Thanks again to Merrily for going well beyond my expectations in helping me to make this issue a reality . - Bill Alger Merrily Mayer : He was born on April Fool 's Day in 1917 in a poor Jewish neighborhood in Harlem , New York . He was born at home . His parents were separated at the time of birth . His mother 's name was Jennie ( I 'm not sure what that was short for ) Grossman . She would never tell anybody her real age , but one day let it slip that she was 18 when my dad was born . So that would put her birth date somewhere around 1899 . My paternal grandfather 's name was Samuel Greenberger and he was a shoemaker in Lakewood , New Jersey . My grandmother remarried ( when my dad was about four years old ) to a man named Leo Mayer , and he was a meat - cutter in a butcher shop . Leo 's family was from Germany , but I 'm not sure which generation it was that came over . Merrily : I haven 't been able to find his birth certificate yet , so I don 't know if he was born Grossman or Greenberger . But I remember my dad telling me that the kids in his school teased him for having a different last name than his mother Jennie , Mrs . Leo Mayer . For that reason , and for the fact he had grown to love his new father , Leo , he wanted to let Leo adopt him . At that time not being able to afford an expensive adoption process , they just changed his last name to Mayer . Grandpa Leo died of cancer in around 1959 , and it was after that when my mother looked up my dad 's real father , Sam Greenberger and went to visit him in Lakewood , New Jersey . I now regret never having gotten the chance to meet him , but when my first daughter was born ( in 1967 ) I got a very nice letter from him , and shortly after that my dad called him and I got to talk ( briefly ) with him on the phone . In any interviews with my dad that you might read , when he referred to " my dad , " he was talking about Leo Mayer ; when he said " my father , " he meant his real father , Samuel Greenberger . I never once heard my father refer to Grandpa Leo as his stepfather ; he chose to use the words " dad " and " father " to make that distinction . Shelly would acknowledge letters received for Sugar & Spike with preprinted responses . Courtesy of Bill Alger . S & S © 2000 DC Comics . CBA : Was your father very talkative about his childhood ? I was wondering what his relatives were like and if they influenced his sense of humor and his love of cartooning . Merrily : Yes , he talked quite a bit about his childhood and life in New York City in general . His family was quite poor when he was growing up , so at first they thought his drawing pictures everywhere was just a waste of time . ( He did draw them everywhere - on the back of his homework assignments , on walls - everywhere . ) As I understand it , my grandmother 's ( his mother Jennie 's ) parents were Hungarian immigrants . Life was a struggle for them . And from his accounts , his mother ( unlike his grandmother ) seemed to view everything as an obstacle rather than a challenge . So his being different posed a " problem " for her . I remember him telling me that when he was quite young , people noticed his talent and urged her to enroll him in an art school . I don 't know where she found this particular one , or whether it was part of a public high school that had an emphasis on art for those who qualified , but she was told that his talent was beyond what they taught there . Instead of being proud , she was furious . " Now what do I do with you ? ! ? " was her screaming attitude . So no , I don 't think he had a whole lot of encouragement at that point . His mother meant well , but she was young , uneducated and scared - viewing most things as a threat . She was a bit volatile and would yell and scream in most instances rather than access a situation and then clearly deal with it . His grandmother Hannah became his hiding place , a sort of safety / comfort zone . I never got to know my real grandfather ( Sam Greenberger ) very well , but for the most part the rest of my dad 's family appeared to me to be ignorant and greedy . Did they possess any talent ? None I ever noticed . . . . You asked me where my dad got his sharp sense of humor from and I really had to think about that one . He really was unique and unlike the rest of his family . His grandmother Hannah died when I was very little and I don 't remember her , but I do recall my dad telling me of the loving and playful relationship he had with her . Maybe that 's where he got it ; I 'm not sure . No one else in his family seemed to have as much going for them as he did , sense of humor or otherwise . Merrily : I don 't remember him telling me about what he liked to read or whom he was influenced by when he was growing up , but he did love drawing cartoons at a very young age . Things were tough for him growing up in New York City . Money was tight and to his mother , any new thing was a problem that she wished she didn 't have to deal with . And the way she dealt with most situations , initially , was to get hysterical and then yell , scream and complain . My dad had an incredible sense of humor and found a way of making fun of the ridiculous . So for him , it was making fun of what could have been an uncomfortable situation and drawing cartoons became a kind of escape . Merrily : Oh , that was sad . He didn 't joke about it . . . well , yeah , he did a little bit . He said things like , " I was my mother 's April Fool . " But the thing that was sad - and he never talked about it , but I know - I remember he was very sensitive , and if you told someone it was your birthday , and it was April first , they wouldn 't believe you , and they were mean in those days . They were so mean . I know he had a hard childhood . He did joke a little bit about it . I think it was really sad that he was born on that day , because he couldn 't tell anybody it was his birthday . . . you 'd say that , and then people in those days , not only wouldn 't they believe you , but they would do something mean . I think that was kind of sad he was born that day . . . Merrily : Well , no . It was like , " It 's my birthday , " and nobody would believe him . " Yeah , sure , right , yeah , here 's an April Fool 's joke for you ! " And they 'd do something mean . He was really sensitive . I mean , he really thought everything had to be so perfect and had to be a certain way . He didn 't like Archie Bunker , because he was really afraid people would believe that was the way to think . He didn 't think that show should be on TV because people might take it seriously . He was very worried about things , even in the comics . CBA : Was he also influenced by animated cartoons ? In 1934 , Sheldon worked as an opaquer at the Fleisher animation studio . Did he ever consider going into animation as a career instead of drawing comic strips ? Merrily : When I was about sixteen and we still lived in Rye ( not far from New Rochelle - about 25 miles north of New Yok City ) , most of my friends were getting summer jobs as lifeguards at Rye Beach or at one of the local beach clubs . I asked him if I could opaque for the summer ( it was about 1960 ) and his exact words were , " You can opaque your life away . There 's no future in it . " And that was that . So I don 't know how much he appreciated having done that , or if he just didn 't want me doing it . But I do know that for a time ( and I 'm not sure what year this was , or for how long ) but he did ghost animate Felix the Cat for a while . I don 't know how many people knew that because of prior contract commitments and what not ( or how much trouble I will be in for mentioning it ! ) Merrily : He did Felix the Cat and he did Mutt and Jeff when Ham Fisher couldn 't do it . He did all those things . I don 't know if he ghosted it because he was under contract or because they didn 't want anybody to know that Ham Fisher couldn 't do it . At any rate , when he did Mutt and Jeff , I liked it better than when Ham Fisher did it ! Merrily : I think it was the comic book . Yeah , and I don 't know what the deal was . My dad said something about Ham 's hand being shaky or something . Maybe Ham didn 't want anyone to know he wasn 't still able to do it , he 'd hurt his hand , or he was getting older , or whatever it was , I 'm not sure if he had Parkinson 's or what happened to him . I don 't know how many stories my dad did or how many issues , but he showed me one he had drawn and it was awesome . I wish I had some of those that he did , they were so good ! He did do fill - ins for Felix the Cat , and I can 't remember for how long , or which ones he did . But when he did something , it was good , I mean , it was better than when the originator did it ! I 'd love to see him get his hands on Rugrats . . . [ laughter ] Merrily : I always got the idea from him that whenever anybody did anything for people like that , that then you 'd have to do more the next time . In other words , if you were wonderful once , and the next time if you weren 't as wonderful , they 'd get on your case . I remember him saying things like , " The more you do , the more you have to do ! " [ laughs ] It 's not like they 'd say , " Wow , you 're great ! " They 'd just want more out of you ! Merrily : I remember him telling me of instances where he got blamed for doing things that he knew better than to do . But that the person who had done them was afraid of being fired , and felt that my dad , being so young ( he was only 18 when he started there ) would only get yelled at , and ( with the help of the culprit ) could talk his way out of it . The guy said , " I told the boss you did this because you 're not going to get fired . " I remember my dad telling me , " It was the stupidest thing . I wouldn 't have even done anything that stupid ! " So then , the guy brought him before the big boss and said , " I 've already spoken to Shelly about this and he doesn 't need to be yelled at twice . " ( My dad was thinking to himself , " You 'd better not yell at me once . . . . " ) Merrily : Yes , often . A few things stand out in my mind . I remember him telling me about one particular incident when he was working on a story . It was still in his typewriter and Gaines came by my dad 's desk with a huge pair of scissors , and cut Dad 's article as it was coming out of the typewriter saying , " that 's all we have room for . " Snip ! He cut it and made off with the top half . He was laughing about it when he told me , but I 'm sure it frustrated him . He didn 't like that . M . C . Gaines was tough to work for . I think they had a good relationship , though . I think M . C . really , truly loved my dad . My dad and Bill [ Gaines , M . C . 's son ] were very close , also . He loved Bill . I think eventually my dad endeared himself to people , and they really liked him . One other thing that stands out in my mind , and might have contributed to the fact that my dad tended to be a little superstitious . I have a picture of a really neat ( about six inches high ) statue that he carved of Max Gaines . One night while on the shelf my dad kept it on , it just cracked and burst into pieces . I was about a year old when this happened and my dad said I got scared and started screaming . ( I don 't remember this - it was his account . ) Anyway , the next day Gaines died tragically in a boating accident . While in a boat that another boat had crashed into , he was knocked into the water , and being that he couldn 't swim , drowned . My dad worked very closely with Gaines , and I get the idea that he and everyone that knew or worked with Gaines had a love / hate relationship with him . They loved him because they had a job and hated him because he was a pain in the neck ( not the term my dad used ! ) to work for . Merrily : A little , but I don 't remember very much about it . He had something to do with the Green Lantern , too , and he did talk about that . He felt that people loved super - heroes . Merrily : Well . . . he was so good at it . I don 't know which he enjoyed more . He liked super - heroes , but yeah , he loved being funny . There was no way around that . He loved being ridiculously funny . [ laughs ] Merrily : If he did , I don 't remember . I do remember that he felt they should rethink their decision not to publish " Superman . " He encouraged Siegel and Shuster and helped them with the original storyboard until it was finally accepted and ultimately published . He helped do something that they would accept so it would get published because he thought they really were on to something . My dad is very good at seeing underlying things , the meta - message , and the way you could change something and the way things could be . Merrily : Yeah , exactly ! He never did that . He was very capable of seeing the other side of something and what else could be developed . He was very good at that . He was frustrated with people when they couldn 't do that . Merrily : I think so . Pretty much . I read more of those than Sugar & Spike . Mr . O ' Hara , of course , was M . C . Gaines . He didn 't make him look anything like him . " O ' Hara " was an Irish guy . Not a short , bald Jewish guy , he had a lot of hair . Maybe to make him less recognizable . But that 's who it was . It was his boss . You can look at Mr . O ' Hara in a story and you can bet that something Gaines did sparked that ! [ laughs ] Merrily : Well , that had something to do with Leave It to Binky and Archie and everything . They were pressuring him to make it like those kinds of comic books . They put the screws to him to make him do that , I think . Didn 't they make Scribbly taller , like Binky , in the end ? Merrily : [ Excitedly ] Oh , I didn 't see that ! What issue was that in ? [ Sugar & Spike # 30 ] Look it up ! Yeah , maybe you can make a copy for me ! I 'd love to read that ! That 's cute , awwww . . . Yeah , these were family members , these cartoons were special , and they were part of everything . That doesn 't surprise me , actually , that he would do that , connect everything . Merrily : Yeah . Every issue that ever was , he put together in a bound book and that was very personal to him . And later on , somebody said , " Well , they 're not valuable , because they 're in a book , " but he had every one . My brother had taken that book when he was little , and my dad was furious , and because of that , when he died , I wanted my brother to have that book , and I told my dad that , I said , " Give that book to Lanney , because remember when he took it ? " He said , " That 's a stupid reason ! " When I said that to my brother , I said , " Take this , because I remember when you took that because you wanted it . " That 's a stupid reason for me to do it , but I gave him that book . I just felt that should be his , but I wish I had it again . I would love to look at it , and read it too . Merrily : My dad didn 't go out of his way to impress people . He had enough going for him to where , " If you like it , fine , and if you don 't , well that 's your loss . " I don 't think he was a brown - noser , really . Merrily : Yeah , they were very close . Bill worked for my dad when he was 14 , and they were close , right to the end of my dad 's life . They loved each other . My dad really cared about him , and Bill looked up to my dad a lot . I remember Bill when I was a little kid and he 'd come over to visit . Merrily : He was about 14 . Max used to bring him to work , so my dad would keep him busy . It was just give him something to do . Put him to work . He was only about five years younger than my dad , but that 's a big gap between 14 and 19 . He said Bill used to be mischievous . My dad would have to work and watch him at the same time . [ laughter ] I 'm not sure what he did for him , but it was my dad 's job to keep him out of trouble . [ laughs ] Merrily : When I knew him , he was nothing like the way you 'd see him later on TV . He was very quiet . When he was in my dad 's house , he always acted like he was a little kid . Like he was being watched and supervised . We weren 't little kids together . . . believe it or not , he was almost my dad 's age ! I was a little kid ! But around me - I was around six or seven - he always acted like he was one of the little kids . He always sat there as if he was going to get into trouble , like he was in the principal 's office . It was really weird . [ laughter ] And he didn 't have the beard or the long hair or anything . He was in a suit and tie ; he 'd bring different girls up for my dad to approve of or disapprove of . Merrily : Yeah , I don 't remember the whole thing . But I remember when Mad magazine was a comic book and there was a cover with a guy 's head cut off . It was a head lifted way up high and you could see the cuts where it was cut off . I remember we had a copy of that - my dad had it . I remember we were late to school one day because it was on the news that they were coming down on Bill Gaines . He loved Bill dearly , and he never said anything against him , ever . They were very , very close , right up to the end of my dad 's life . Bill did a lot for my dad . There isn 't anything that either one of them wouldn 't do for each other . But I remember the comment my dad made , " That was unfortunate , " He might have been referring to the decision Bill made to do that material , or that the congressmen felt that way about Bill . I 'm not sure what the " that " was . I was ten . I was very young . I remember when Mad came out as a magazine , how incredibly funny it was . I think my dad was kind of happy with it , and relieved that Bill found a medium and a way to do what he was good at that was acceptable , that people liked it and he was doing well with it . While Shelly first developed his rodent trio back in 1944 as a strip in Funny Stuff , his " Three Mouseketeers " didn 't receive their own title until 1956 . Here 's the cover to # 5 . © 2000 DC Comics . Merrily : He thought it was a very funny magazine . The comic , I don 't know what he thought of , but the magazine he thought was very funny . He liked Don Martin and Ernie Kovacs . Merrily : Yeah , it was a headache . He just really wanted . . . he loved to draw , and he just didn 't want to baby - sit anymore . [ laughs ] He didn 't put it that way , but that 's what I got , he just had enough of the hassle , he just wanted to draw pictures . That 's what he really wanted to do , he wanted to get out of the city , be in the country . He loved horses and trees and didn 't want us raised in the city . So he left to draw pictures , because that 's what he really loved doing . He said he could draw pictures for the rest of his life . He liked writing stories and stuff and seeing them printed , but he didn 't really like the editing deadlines . It really squeezed him . He didn 't like that . He just wanted to draw pictures . That was so much fun for him . He could do that under a deadline - " Draw me five fat guys ! " He could nail them . " With big ears ! " He could do that in a heartbeat , no problem . I just get the idea he was very relieved when he was in our house , writing . He liked that so much to go into his studio and look out at the trees and write . He loved that . He did not like the rat race of New York City . He loved the work , but one day he said to me , " I 'm going to call the office , I want you to listen to this . I want you to listen to the stupid things I have to deal with . " [ laughter ] So he gets on his speakerphone . These guys at DC are in a conference , and I couldn 't believe it ! It was like . . . he pulled everything together . He made everything work . He really did . He was a great organizer and a good leader , and he got tired of having to do that . " I don 't want to lead everyone by the nose anymore ! They can do what they want . " He did care what people thought , but he just got tired of how ridiculous the bureaucracy was . He cared about the whole picture . A lot of people didn 't in those days , there were a lot of people that were running scared , that were stymied by being yelled at their whole lives , that they couldn 't see the forest for the trees . Merrily : Well . . . I 'm sure there was . I just have to pull it out of my brain . [ laughs ] I know there was , because I can remember he 'd come in laughing . . . he 'd tell me things he had to deal with . I 'm glad he laughed about the stuff , because he was under quite a bit of pressure . My mom didn 't hear well and he kind of got frustrated telling her things . She 'd sit there with the same look on her face and he lived for feedback ! He 'd always get a rise out of me , because I 'd say something . So he 'd tell me . My mom was very quiet . They really were very different . Merrily : Well , a lot of people felt that my dad made big mistakes by not going to Hollywood , not doing this , not doing that . He didn 't make a big mistake . He did exactly what he wanted to do ! He wanted to get out of there ! He wanted to get out of New York City ! He wanted to get out of that office ! He wanted to be by himself ! He wanted to draw cartoons and there was no mistake to it ! I don 't think he had any regrets about it ! He never felt , " I wish I made more money , I wish I did this , I wish I did that . " He did exactly what he wanted to do ! He moved into our house , and built a swimming pool . He had friends over , and we went swimming , had pool parties , and Fourth of July barbecues . He drew pictures . People liked him and respected him , and he was very , very happy with that ! He really was . He never said to me that he 'd made a mistake , I never heard him say , " I wish I hadn 't done that . " I mean , really never heard him say that as far as the career move . Merrily : I don 't know . I think whatever he was working on at the time . He was very sad when The Three Mousketeers got cut . It was his choice , I think , that Sugar & Spike took off , so he had to concentrate on that . I remember him coming in and saying , " Well , no more Mousketeers , " to my mother . He was kind of sad about that . Whatever he worked on , he loved working on it . It would be easier to tell you what he didn 't like , which I don 't even know . [ laughter ] He enjoyed drawing anything . He would be drawing , and he 'd be talking to me while he 'd be drawing . I 'd be telling him something about school , and he 'd be drawing a little caricature of the situation , and then while I was still talking , he 'd show me what he drew . He loved to draw anything . I know he didn 't consider that a chore , he loved Halloween , he loved everything . Merrily : Well , he didn 't want that to happen . He wanted to do it , but they wanted him to concentrate on Sugar & Spike , and . . . now , what 's the name of that guy ? I 've met him , he was heavy - set , what was his name ? Who did The Mouseketeers afterwards . . . Rube . . . ? Merrily : Yeah , Grossman ! Rube was very sweet , dad liked him , but he didn 't like the way Rube did The Three Mousketeers , and it died after that ! I remember him saying , " They killed it ! " [ laughter ] It wasn 't good anymore , and he was sad about that . Merrily : No , he totally abandoned it , as far as I know , because he had to do Sugar & Spike . He loved The Three Mouseketeers and he liked Rube . Rube came to our house a few times , but dad realized the guy was limited . Merrily : Not very many . Bill Gaines was one who came a lot and every once in a while Rube Grossman . The only socializing my dad did at our house was when he took a writing class , and he invited classmates to come over with their wives every Fourth of July and we 'd have a party . Oh , Irwin Hasen , yeah , he visited a little . My dad needed space to be creative , and he didn 't surround himself with a lot of people . He loved creative people and loved spending time with them , but he didn 't have them over too much because a lot of them were very neurotic . He had trouble dealing with neurotic people . [ laughter ] No , he really did . He didn 't forgive people for a whole lot of stuff . . . he was very critical . Not critical to them , but he 'd just never have them back ! [ laughs ] Merrily : Oh , yeah , I knew him very well . My dad was pretty close with Irwin . Irwin came to the house a lot . He was about four feet tall , a little younger than my dad maybe , and he used to date these girls who were 18 and eight feet tall ! [ laughter ] My dad would call them " Mutt and Jeff . " [ laughs ] Merrily : Oh , he was proud . Yeah , he was . He seemed to enjoy The Mouseketeers a little bit more , now that I think of it . He really got into that . But he was happy doing Sugar & Spike , and he was very proud that it was a hit . He enjoyed being the celebrity when my friends came over and talked to him . He loved that . Merrily : No , I don 't remember that he did . All of a sudden , it just appeared on his drawing board , and he was telling me about it , and he was very proud of it . " What do you think ? Isn 't this cute ? What do you think of this ? What do you think of that ? " And for some reason , I didn 't like being in the studio , because I always got yelled at . I 'd touch something and tick him off somehow , so I really didn 't want to be in there , and so I said , " Yeah , that 's great , dad , " [ laughter ] and I 'd leave . If you turned around and breathed on something , you never knew what you were going to get yelled at , and I just didn 't really want to be in there . He really didn 't say anything about the comic being based on us . But I did get the idea it was about us , even though it was called Sugar & Spike , and I remember being really offended that our names weren 't in it , I would 've been much more thrilled if our names had been in it . He never called me " Sugar " and that 's probably why I wasn 't thrilled . I was impressed by his concepts about babies - even though it was just a comic book . I 'm sure when any psychologist or anybody else reads it they would have to admit that he had insight into how children act . I remember people saying , " Oh , he doesn 't know what he 's talking about ! " But now they realize that he did . He was self - educated . He didn 't go to graduate school for psychology or anything . He figured it out on his own . A lot of things about babies ' early communication that took psychologists a while to figure out . I 'm sure people benefited from it . I know I did . Besides , they 're funny ! CBA : Your father said in an interview that he was asked by DC to compete with the rash of Dennis the Menace imitations that were flooding the market . " I resisted all suggestions that it be another Dennis imitation . I remember saying , ' When Ketcham dreamed up Dennis , he looked around him and found what he was looking for in his own kid . To that degree only , I will imitate Ketcham . . . I too will look around me and see what I come up with . ' " Do you know if he considered Dennis to be much of an influence on Sugar & Spike ? Merrily : That 's the first I 've heard of him saying anything about it . I don 't know that he was influenced by Dennis . If DC asked him to do something similar to Dennis the Menace , maybe since Ketcham looked at his kids , then my dad looked at his own , because looking at movies of my brother and I before we could talk is how Sugar & Spike came about . CBA : Yeah , he said that . . . " My kids were already entering their teens so I had to look elsewhere . " He said he couldn 't come up with any ideas until he took a look at the home movie . . . . Merrily : Yes , and this is the first I 've heard that it had something to do with Dennis the Menace . I remember I had a Dennis the Menace doll , and he didn 't really like it . [ laughter ] I wanted one and he didn 't want me to buy one , so I remember that . There was a little rubber doll . It wasn 't that cute and it didn 't look like Dennis the Menace really . So one day on my birthday , I came home and there was one hanging from the mailbox . It was in a box and I opened it up and I said , " Oh wow , a Dennis the Menace doll ! Where did it come from ? " My mom said , " I don 't know . Someone hung it on the mailbox . " I was so pissed because I thought , " My God ! If I 'd stayed home , I would 've known who gave me this ! " I was so sad and my mom took me in my room and shut the door . She said , " I gave it to you . Be quiet . I just didn 't want dad to know . " [ laughter ] " Don 't say anything ! " So I could never tell my dad where that stupid doll came from . I don 't know if he didn 't like Dennis the Menace because he didn 't want to be reminded of how he was asked to imitate something . I don 't know . But I do remember he didn 't like that doll and didn 't want me to have it . [ laughs ] Merrily : Well , I 'll tell you right now , my dad did not like to imitate things . He considered that stealing . If he saw something cute , he 'd draw it . Maybe he was forced to do something like that when he came up with Sugar & Spike . As cute as Dennis the Menace was , Sugar & Spike was nothing like it , really . If Spike looked like Dennis the Menace , it was either because he was asked to do that . Or because my brother had overalls that looked like that , that were always unbuttoned and falling apart . Those clothes that Sugar and Spike have on are drawings of the way we were pretty much dressed . Yeah , my slip was always showing , and my brother wore overalls ( and I did , too ) . Merrily : Yes , my mother always put a ribbon in my hair . It was very important in those days to put ribbons in little girls ' hair . My hair was never messy like that . I did not look like Sugar that way . My hair was always braided neatly , but it was very blonde . You 'll see that in the pictures , they 're black - & - white , but you can see how blonde my hair was . Merrily : His hair was a little darker . It was very light brown - dark blonde . . . dishwater blonde . It wasn 't red . My mother had red hair and maybe he made Spike 's hair red so he wouldn 't look like Dennis . I really don 't know . Merrily : I don 't remember ever having to sit in the corner , or stand in the corner , I don 't know where that came from . I think some of the people that we babysat for did that . I don 't remember , I don 't know where that came from . My parents didn 't do that . They were very creative with their punishment , and they were very careful . Dad didn 't want to ruin us , and he was very careful of what he did and didn 't do . They were very into progressive education for children , and letting them be autonomous . Although he didn 't really allow us to be autonomous , he thought we should be . [ laughs ] So he was careful not to . . . he didn 't want to damage us like that , so he never did that . And he didn 't smack our hands when we did something wrong , either . He would yell and scream a lot , you 'd have to listen to him for an hour - and - a - half . [ laughter ] Merrily : Oh , very much , yeah . I was older than my brother , and I was an instigator . [ laughter ] I was Sugar and my brother was the one who was always getting into trouble for everything I did . In those days it was unusual for the woman to be the leader . But what you have to understand is , I was older . So , naturally , the younger kid followed the older kid . I remember thinking my brother was very stupid , and that 's very sad that I felt that when I was little . I remember my mother said , " He adored you ! He just thought you were wonderful ! " I was looking at one picture of my brother where he looked at me like that , and I was looking at him like , " You piece of garbage ! " [ laughter ] That 's so sad . Well , because he was a little kid , and he got into things ! My parents set us up for that , too , not to get along . I mean , they did ! " Ah , he 's being stupid , don 't . . . " they separated us , they totally separated us . We weren 't allowed to do anything together . My dad had bought my brother a typewriter , and mine hadn 't come yet . We were grown up , in high school , and I had typing homework . My brother said I could use his typewriter to do my homework , and my dad wouldn 't let me use it ! He wanted to buy me my own , and we both thought that was ridiculous . He said , " Well , my brother used to break everything of mine , so you 're going to have your own . " Well , his brother was 11 years younger than him , and we weren 't [ 11 years apart in age ] . He had issues ; my dad definitely had issues . Then , later on , when we grew up , he would base it on the neighbors ' kids . There was a kid across the street he 'd put in . Anyone he saw . He 'd wander around the neighborhood , watching things kids did , and write about that . [ laughter ] He was afraid to get things from the TV . He didn 't want to steal things . Then he wanted me to bring my daughter around because he wanted to write about her . And then later on Sugar became some of the things that our neighbors and the people that my friends babysat for did . I don 't know why he stopped doing Sugar & Spike . I never did find that out . I don 't know if he was running out of things to do , because all the kids around him were growing up , or if DC decided to stop the whole thing . Merrily : Yeah . That 's true , too . Yeah , they were doing very badly , but he didn 't stop drawing for a living . So that couldn 't have been it . Merrily : That sounds closer to the real reason because he never stopped drawing , he drew right up until the last day of his life . He drew constantly . He drew when he was on the phone . You know how people draw little circles and doodles ? He would do funny _ stuff , constantly ! He drew right up to the end . But yeah , his eyes were failing . Cecil - a . k . a . Spike - himself . From a sketch by Sheldon Mayer . Art © 2000 The Estate of Sheldon Mayer . Spike © 2000 DC Comics . Opposite : Merrily Mayer 's brother Lanney as infant in a 1945 picture courtesy of his older sister . © 2000 Merrily Mayer Harris . CBA : I thought that for a short while in the 1970s he couldn 't see well enough to continue drawing . Merrily : He had cataracts and in those days , they took the whole lens out . He never could see well after that . They took the lens out and they gave him these thick glasses . Now . . . I was almost blind , too , but they put a lens in my eye . They didn 't do that for him . Now they do an inter - ocular lens . I 'm now an android [ laughter ] , but they didn 't do that for him . I remember he had these really thick glasses after the operation . He couldn 't see very well , but he did draw stuff . Merrily : I don 't remember , but when his eyes went , he wasn 't happy . And he was practicing . He 'd shut his eyes and practiced drawing in case he went blind . He would draw with his eyes shut . And he 'd draw these incredible things with his eyes closed ! [ laughter ] He said , " It only works if I don 't take my pencil off the paper . " So , he was practicing . He was ready to go blind and he wanted to make sure he could still draw . Merrily : But it made it hard , though . He could never really see well the way they did his eyes . He had a very hard time after that . Merrily : I don 't know . I never heard that . But if someone told me that , I would believe it , because The Three Mouseketeers book was killed when he wasn 't on it . I mean , it didn 't do well . I know he would get very upset at the way they would ink things and the colors they would choose . " Those idiots ! " [ laughs ] I do believe that . Because the Sugar & Spike book was his baby and I don 't think he wanted it bastardized . I mean , he really loved it and wanted it done right - the way he thought it should be . And he didn 't think anyone else could do it . When it was done , it was done . He didn 't want it to die because it wasn 't as good . If he had to stop , that would be that . Merrily : I did . Not religiously . Not every single one , but I read some of it , because he 'd ask me to , and it was very cute . My dad and I didn 't really become friends until , I don 't know , very recently , actually . . . maybe within two or three years before his death . After I started college he had an easier time relating to me as an adult . I was studying history and asked him questions and he could answer all of them . He was a history buff , so he appreciated the classes I was taking . Then , we had something in common , and prior to that , we didn 't . I mean , we didn 't like the same kind of music , didn 't have anything in common , really , except that we were related ! So when I started studying history , we talked about it . When I told him something he already knew , he was very impressed , " Oh , wow , you know that ? " [ laughs ] That was the basis for our friendship . I apologized for calling him one day , I was doing a paper and needed to know something , and called him up and said , " I 'm really sorry , " because I remembered how he was about his time being invaded , and he said , " No , that 's fine ! Whenever you have a question about history , you should call me up and ask me . As a matter of fact , tell your whole class they should call me , too ! " [ laughs ] Not that they really could , but they probably needed to . . . [ laughs ] If you want the truth , call Sheldon Mayer ! [ laughs ] Merrily : There were three of my very good friends in high school who were big fans of S & S and collected all the issues . I remember one day when I was walking home from school seeing a friend of mine walking away from the street I lived on . She didn 't live anywhere near our house . I at first thought she came to visit me and was leaving because I wasn 't home . I invited her back . She informed me that she had interviewed my dad for the school newspaper and was finished and was now leaving . That was someone I , at the time , considered to be one of my very closest friends , but now , had completely no interest in spending time with me . She came to see my dad , saw him , and left . I was proud , but at the same time crushed . That happened more often as I got older . There 'd be guys I had gone out with for a period of time that when we , for whatever the reason , stopped seeing each other , would still come over and had a similar disinterest in seeing me . They just wanted to " hang " with my dad . Merrily : He loved it ! He paid somebody - this kid named Chris Wood to answer his fan mail . My dad told him to let him know if somebody wanted to meet him or had anything really interesting to say . So he 'd answer those . He would also dedicate stories to people . Sometimes he 'd write back or call them . If they wanted to meet him , and they seemed interesting , he would meet them . Merrily : Not people he didn 't already know . He 'd go into town and meet somewhere ( no matter where they lived ) . He had one I 'll never forget : Nell Rose Cottal , a girl he drove to see with her mother and brother . They met and had lunch together . They didn 't come to the house . He 'd go visit them . He talked about her a lot . He loved the fact that she loved his work . Merrily : I do remember one particular day ( I must have been about 14 ) when a friend of mine was telling my dad about a little girl she had babysat for . The little girl was about a year - and - a - half old and when she had done something wrong , her mother would slap her hand . This one day she made a mistake and then went to her mother with her hand out for her to smack . I remember my dad having been very touched by that , and in at least one issue , he had Sugar do that . I remember the incident that sparked my Dad to do the cover for Sugar & Spike # 4 . My brother had gotten into the jelly ( he was about four or five ) and got some on his face and hands . My mother was a little annoyed at him , and he said , " How 'd you know it was me , you weren 't even in the room ? Do you have eyes in the back of your head ? " ( My mother was just ticked off because he had gotten jelly everywhere , and then was rude about it . ) My dad , in his true comedic form , just put it into his next issue . Merrily : Oh , really ? I didn 't know that . I saw his name as something to do with the Superman show on TV in the ' 50s . I watched that , and I remember Whit Ellsworth 's name was on there , but I didn 't know in what capacity he , if at all , worked with my dad . Merrily : No , the only thing he ever complained about was the colorists . He often didn 't like the way it was colored after he sent it in . " Those idiots , they didn 't make this contrast enough ! " He never complained about anything else , the writing or the editors , anything as much as the person who did the coloring . If something covered up one of his details , that 'd upset him . He did his own inking , so he wouldn 't have to worry about that , but the coloring was done after he sent it in . Merrily : Oh , yes ! Absolutely ! He did that , because it was very important to him . He felt these guys just went in , did their job , got paid and went home . He was a stickler for detail . It meant something to him . When you color over something , you lose some of the detail . Like , if you 're going to have spaghetti on a plate and on a tablecloth and the spaghetti was red . You wouldn 't have a red plate and a red tablecloth , because they wouldn 't know what it was . They would do stupid things like that , and it would upset him . [ laughter ] That 's the kind of thing that would bother him that they wouldn 't notice . Merrily : Oh , we had a fence . I don 't remember being able to go over or under it . [ laughs ] They were picket fences like that . I think dogs used to climb through and get away . And so he had the kids doing that . . . Oh , wait a minute ! I know where that came from ! Yes , I do ! I think once he put the playpen upside - down on my brother when he was getting into something for a minute so he wouldn 't get hurt , and then I went and lifted it up and let him out . That 's where that came from . We used to help each other escape from the playpen . [ laughter ] A lot of what would be the fence was the playpen . I would always help him escape . We used to do that . [ laughter ] Merrily : It was in color , but it didn 't do justice to his talent . I don 't know when he did it . It was just something he tried to do . The cels didn 't match . The arms didn 't match the rest of the body on one particular character and there were other problems like that . Merrily : I was sort of offended by them , really . I thought it was a swipe of Sugar & Spike . I would love for one of them to say , " Yeah , I love Sugar & Spike and I wanted to put it in a cartoon . " I 'd love for someone to admit to me they were totally influenced by Sugar & Spike . It 's cute but the drawings are kind of grotesque . Tommy is a very sweet , loving , cute kid and they 're nice kids and the stories are pretty much like Sugar & Spike in some ways . Along with the whole premise of " Those grown - ups don 't understand us , " only babies understand other babies . I just think they could be cuter . I really don 't like Hey , Arnold ! and all of those ugly cartoons . It really bothers me . My father worked very hard to make his look appealing . I 'm sure Sugar & Spike inspired Rugrats and I 'd love for somebody to say that ! They waited until he died , and then they did it , it seems to me . I think somebody should give him credit for having introduced the concept that babies have their own language . Merrily : He wouldn 't have liked it . He called that limited animation . But then again , there 's a whole new way of thinking in cartoons . I think it started with Sesame Street . Those puppets were kind of weird looking . And maybe that 's a way of not having everything be pretty and cute . I love The Simpsons , though . I find it terribly funny . I was sort of taken aback at the way they looked at first , too . So maybe that 's just a new thing that I 'm too old to appreciate . You can 't get uglier than Homer Simpson . But the show is riotously funny . It 's a really hip cartoon . Merrily : I don 't have a favorite character he did , but there are certain things that he drew that were so funny . He 'd do a caricature of somebody that did something silly , and that 's what I loved . When we were going somewhere and he would depict something stupid that happened , put it on paper and make you laugh . Those were my favorite things he did . His stories of Sugar & Spike were very , very cute , and I loved all of them , but my favorite things were when he 'd make fun of life on paper , and then just hand it to me . [ laughs ]