20              So I would just encourage you to feel

      21   liberated, since British Petroleum is paying, and

      22   let's be innovative and really try to work

                                                         102

       1   together, and figure out what we can do to solve

       2   this problem and clean it up and prevent future

       3   ones from happening.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you, Linda Rae.

       5              Linda Rae reminds me, by the way, that

       6   each of the military branches has limitations on

       7   work periods, and I think it might be useful to

       8   take a look at those documents.  They're very

       9   specific, and they have been in effect for many

      10   years.

      11              Let me tell you where I'd like to go

      12   with this discussion.  I think that this kind of

      13   exchange of information and ideas within the

      14   committee, and between the committee and the

      15   agencies is extremely useful and necessary.  And

      16   I'd like to continue this until we take a break at

      17   10:00 o'clock.

      18              But following a break, I think it would

      19   be useful to try to shift the discussion a little

      20   bit, in the same area, I don't think we're done

      21   with the Gulf oil issue.  But within this area,

      22   I'd like to shift the discussion so that we can

                                                         103

       1   start to think about how the committee might in

       2   fact be most useful to the agencies with its

       3   advice and recommendations, and how we can

       4   organize ourselves to provide that kind of

       5   assistance, which indeed is our charge.

       6              But with that, let me open it back up.

       7   I know that Bill had more.

       8              And I'll get back to you, Bill.  I

       9   haven't forgotten you.

      10              But Peter first -- Peter Dooley.

      11              MR. DOOLEY:  Yeah, Peter Dooley, with

      12   LaborSafe.

      13              Just following up and amplifying the

      14   issues around the worker training, which I

      15   understand that OSHA was sort of left an inherited

      16   past practice with the Exxon Valdez spill, where

      17   four hours was seen as the adequate number of

      18   training hours.

      19              And, you know, as Peg Seminario said,

      20   there's a real question as to why not be going

      21   with the standard as in the HAZWOPER standard, the

      22   OSHA HAZWOPER standard, which mandates various

                                                         104

       1   levels of training being 24 and 40 hours, and I

       2   think there's some 8-hour training in there.

       3              So the question of the quantity of the

       4   hours, but also the quality of the training is a

       5   big question in a lot of people's minds, as to the

       6   adequacy of the warnings that were given to

       7   workers, and the ability to have training that

       8   really gives workers adequate information for them

       9   to protect themselves as best as possible.

      10              So I would just, you know, suggest that

      11   there's probably a need for increased level of

      12   minimum training for everyone, but also that there

      13   may be different levels of training that could be

      14   given to workers of various levels that could be

      15   doing peer training.

      16              And under the HAZWOPER training, as

      17   many people here know, there's been an incredible

      18   amount of sophistication that has happened in the

      19   world of worker training.

      20              And NIHS has been a leader in this to

      21   fund and support programs where workers have

      22   become virtual experts in taking preventive

                                                         105

       1   measures to protect workers on various kinds of

       2   sites with hazardous waste.  So I think that

       3   there's a lot of experience there that could be

       4   really helpful.

       5              And also, just on the whole issue of

       6   monitoring and trying to identify what's hazardous

       7   and what's not, obviously the PEL, you know,

       8   limits are not adequate.

       9              But even beyond that, I think we need

      10   to be in this mode of prevention.  How do we

      11   control and protect workers to the best possible

      12   extent.

      13              And knowing that monitoring is not

      14   going to really be, you know, in many instances,

      15   not going to be a good indicator of what kind of

      16   level of control is needed, and just trying to

      17   prevent and protect as much as possible, and what

      18   is reasonably possible to be doing.

      19              And that's where trained educator

      20   groups, including workers, can really be very,

      21   very sophisticated, as we've seen in a lot of

      22   folks who have become specialized in hazardous

                                                         106

       1   waste training.

       2              One last comment on the work hours and

       3   everything.  I believe many, many years ago, a

       4   group of trade unions in this country came up with

       5   a fairly good model, I think, that has worked a

       6   long time, except that we've been losing it in the

       7   last several decades, and that's 8 hours a day,

       8   and 40 hours a week.

       9              Unfortunately, many of us here have

      10   really fallen into sort of the lax about that, but

      11   that's at least a standard to be starting with.

      12              DR. MICHAELS:  Let me just add, not to

      13   try to respond to all those things, but just one

      14   thing I neglected to add was the other concern we

      15   have, which we talked about a little bit earlier,

      16   is ensuring that this training also be done in the

      17   appropriate languages.

      18              The Labor Department insists that local

      19   workers be hired, because it's very important to

      20   ensure that workers whose economic likelihood has

      21   been threatened be supported in this activity.

      22              And, therefore, there are a large

                                                         107

       1   number of workers, who speak either Spanish,

       2   Vietnamese, or other southeast Asian languages, be

       3   trained.  And that's been a challenge.  I think,

       4   for BP, we've insisted on it.  They have moved

       5   forward with that.  Their training programs are

       6   being done in Spanish.  Their materials, they have

       7   been translated to Vietnamese, and some training

       8   for Vietnamese, we're also pushing for that as

       9   well.  So it's an interesting set of challenges.

      10              There actually are a large number of

      11   workers who have received the 40-hour HAZWOPER

      12   training as well, who have lots of different

      13   responsibilities down there.

      14              And we have to look not only at the

      15   training, but also, frankly, at the quality of the

      16   training.

      17              We have a system now which essentially

      18   is just a check-off, did you get the 4040 hours of

      19   training.  And I'm not sure that's adequate

      20   either.  So it's something also that perhaps this

      21   group can think about.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Jim?  Jim Swartz.

                                                         108

       1              MR. SWARTZ:  Jim Swartz.

       2              I was just following up on what Linda

       3   had mentioned earlier in terms of messaging.  And

       4   this is just a general comment.

       5              Because of the complexity of the

       6   situation, obviously, we have the communities

       7   involved, and the mixed messaging that we're

       8   getting, especially in the southeast on television

       9   daily is, come on down, our beaches are okay,

      10   which, in fact, precipitates, bring your kids down

      11   and touch the oil.

      12              I mean, that's what we're seeing down

      13   there in the southeast, to the point where it's

      14   extremely difficult to get hotel rooms for

      15   workers, because there's so many tourists down

      16   there.

      17              So, again, the complexity of the issue,

      18   the community, and yet I know what you're up

      19   against is the economic vibrancy of the area feels

      20   very threatened, so all the dynamics are there.

      21              DR. MICHAELS:  It's fascinating.  And,

      22   you know, we, obviously, can't control the

                                                         109

       1   message.  You know, different parties put out

       2   different messages.

       3              But there is an effort across the

       4   federal government in the public health agencies

       5   to work closely together, and messaging is

       6   certainly one of the things we're now thinking

       7   about very much and how to get that kind of

       8   information out, and so advice on that would be

       9   helpful as well.

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.  Tim?

      11              DR. KEY:  Yes.  Tim Key.

      12              I have a couple of questions.  The

      13   calls that I get are about perceived risks.  And,

      14   you know, I have my understanding of what the

      15   actual risk, based on what I've seen as far as

      16   data information about exposure, and it's not

      17   meeting the perceived risk.

      18              How do you guys, how do we, in the

      19   actual trenches, go about dealing with that

      20   reconciliation?

      21              DR. MICHAELS:  And what you've got -- I

      22   mean, this is an area that we're very much eager

                                                         110

       1   to hear your thoughts on.

       2              We try to not comment on the risk.  We

       3   try to say, here's our data, here's our

       4   recommendations.  But, you know, we're not experts

       5   in risk communication either.  We look to other

       6   agencies for data on that, so if you have thoughts

       7   on that.

       8              DR. KEY:  And a follow-up question

       9   would be, the issue of jurisdiction.  Obviously,

      10   if they were in Beaumont, Texas, those eleven

      11   deaths would be an OSHA major violation.  But

      12   that's not out on the rig.  Those are concerns.

      13              DR. MICHAELS:  That's right.  And, you

      14   know, obviously, the issue of -- you know, there

      15   is a mosaic of jurisdictions of worker protection

      16   across the country.

      17              And while OSHA has the majority of

      18   workers, there are groups of workers that OSHA

      19   doesn't offer protection to.  With the exception

      20   of public sector workers, most of them have

      21   protection, at least on a theoretical basis,

      22   provided by other agencies.

                                                         111

       1              The Protecting America's Workers Act

       2   has a provision that would require other agencies

       3   to go through a process with OSHA to determine

       4   whether or not their programs are acceptable.

       5              And I assume that that would include

       6   the oil rig workers.  And I assume it's,

       7   obviously -- it's an issue that we, as a nation,

       8   have to think about right now to ensure that all

       9   workers are adequately protected.

      10              DR. BORWEGEN:  Bill Borwegen.

      11              So, as a layperson, or acting as a

      12   layperson, you know, looking at the media

      13   coverage, you know, scanning the press clips, I

      14   guess the New York Times did an article about the

      15   respirator issue.

      16              But I wonder if there's just a way that

      17   we could be more proactive with both, risk

      18   communication to workers, but also with the media.

      19   And, you know, instead of -- it seems like I, you

      20   know, watching OSHA work for the last 30 years,

      21   I'm sorry to say -- no, it's not ...

      22              But OSHA, I can't remember a time

                                                         112

       1   during OSHA's history when they didn't have a

       2   bunker mentality, when dealing with the media.

       3   And I think this is an opportunity to talk about

       4   all of the good things that you're doing.

       5              I think you're doing a lot of rational

       6   things, and I think you need to have more of a

       7   proactive press strategy here to educate the

       8   press, which in turn educates the public about the

       9   good work that you're doing.  And OSHA has a hard

      10   time even articulating the good work that it does.

      11              I mean, you know, the Bloodborne

      12   Pathogen Standard, you know, took hepatitis B

      13   cases in this country from 17,000 a year among

      14   health-care workers to less than 300.  And I've

      15   never heard OSHA say that, and, you know, it's one

      16   of your amazing successes.

      17              So I think that, when you're doing good

      18   work or when you need to be public, in this case,

      19   I would urge you to revamp your press operations

      20   so that you could do a better job of communicating

      21   the good work you're doing.

      22              I was listening earlier, too, about the

                                                         113

       1   way we need to communicate to workers.

       2              Also, you know, we have flu.gov.  Maybe

       3   we need some BPOil.gov, BPOilSpill.gov., a website

       4   that folks can go directly to.  And then, again,

       5   kind of summarizing what other people are saying,

       6   that this is the work -- I'm a cleanup worker on a

       7   beach, this is what I need to know; I'm a cleanup

       8   worker on a boat, you know, this is what I need to

       9   know.

      10              So I think there's a lot of useful

      11   tools, but I think this is going to be a

      12   long-term...

      13              I mean, if I'm a worker, the other

      14   thing is, is there an 800-number I can call, if I

      15   have a health and safety problem?

      16              DR. MICHAELS:  800-321-OSHA.

      17              DR. BORWEGEN:  Yeah, okay.  But are we

      18   getting that out to people?

      19              DR. MICHAELS:  We're trying to.

      20              DR. BORWEGEN:  Is that part of the

      21   training?

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Emory?

                                                         114

       1              MR. KNOWLES:  I would --

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let's do Emory, and

       3   then we'll come back to you.

       4              DR. BORWEGEN:  Never mind.

       5              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles, Northrop

       6   Grumman.

       7              I believe Peg really hit the nail on

       8   the head, focused educational fact sheets,

       9   training for the specific categories, workers.

      10              The question I have, and I don't know

      11   whether either of you know the answer or not, but

      12   what is BP doing to train and qualify the managers

      13   and supervisors that are overseeing these workers?

      14   Is BP doing anything?  Do we have anything

      15   happening in the petrochemical industry?

      16              Or is OSHA doing any kind of outreach

      17   to train these folks so that these workers are

      18   wearing the proper PPE?

      19              What I see on TV is what I saw down in

      20   New Orleans following Katrina, where you had

      21   workers there who were provided the PPE, working

      22   in these very hot and humid environments, where

                                                         115

       1   they would slice open the PPE, they would cut

       2   sleeves off, they would wear it pulled off, down

       3   to their waist.  So that, obviously, is indicative

       4   of problems at the management and supervisory

       5   level.

       6              So I was just wondering if there was

       7   anything happening there.

       8              DR. MICHAELS:  We can certainly get you

       9   more information.  It's my understanding that

      10   supervisors must have the 40-hour HAZWOPER

      11   training.

      12              And there is a very clear safety, sort

      13   of hierarchy structure, where information flows

      14   down through BP, and it flows directly across from

      15   the Coast Guard and from other agencies to BP.

      16              And it's augmented by OSHA being on all

      17   those sites.  And this is different than

      18   New Orleans, in that there are relatively few

      19   number of sites.  So the boats, I think, are a

      20   different question.

      21              But issues around this are very useful

      22   for us.  So, I don't know where we go with this,

                                                         116

       1   but to have your input on questions like this to

       2   ensure that we're following this, and can follow

       3   up with either BP, or, you know, these

       4   communication issues, actually, would go into the

       5   unified command.

       6              This is a unified command system.  And

       7   if we're going to put up a -- you know, there are

       8   websites that have been put up.  The BP Horizon

       9   website is the unified command's website.  And

      10   that's certainly a website that should --

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  There's nothing there.

      12              DR. MICHAELS:  Right.  Well, that's

      13   obvious.  So we appreciate your advice on this,

      14   and can certainly raise it through that structure.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Roy Buchan.

      16              DR. BUCHAN:  I just wanted to follow up

      17   on your comment.

      18              What I see on television is that it

      19   seems that we're getting the perception that the

      20   federal government is doing nothing, it's all BP.

      21              I think that we really need to get the

      22   word out that OSHA and NIOSH and many other

                                                         117

       1   agencies besides the Coast Guard are doing work in

       2   this area.  And I just wanted to congratulate you

       3   on bringing that up.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.  Joe.

       5              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten,

       6   Johnson & Johnson.

       7              A couple of questions and comments.

       8              One of the things that I always find

       9   useful is being able to learn from incidents when

      10   they occur.

      11              So, how will we be able to get the

      12   learnings from, say, God forbid, there is a

      13   fatality involved in one of these efforts, quickly

      14   out to the public and out to the other workers so

      15   that they can learn from that?  That's one

      16   question.

      17              I heard a lot of discussion around

      18   protecting workers.  I didn't hear a lot of

      19   discussion around volunteers and community

      20   workers.

      21              So that may be beyond the jurisdiction

      22   of OSHA, but certainly it's a public health issue,

                                                         118

       1   because if people volunteer to help clean up, and

       2   they come down with illness, that becomes a burden

       3   on the national health system.

       4              The third question I have, I guess is

       5   for Dr. Howard, regarding -- I think I heard him

       6   say there was limited information on the chronic

       7   effects of exposure to crude oil.

       8              And I was wondering, don't we have

       9   anything from the Valdez cleanup, that we gathered

      10   information at that time that would be helpful in

      11   understanding this?

      12              So those are some comments.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I'd like to move for

      14   our break in just a minute, but before that I'd

      15   like to ask if Dr. Howard or Dr. Michaels have

      16   anything else to add before the break.

      17              DR. MICHAELS:  I forgot your question

      18   already, I'm sorry.

      19              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Sharing incidents.

      20   Would we be able to share incidents quickly?

      21              DR. MICHAELS:  No.

      22              Oh, yes, there is actually a system in

                                                         119

       1   place internally to share that.  I think you've

       2   raised a good point.

       3              Just as background for everyone to

       4   know, the Environmental Protection Agency has the

       5   same HAZWOPER regulations as OSHA does for

       6   citizens and volunteers.  And so we're working

       7   closely with them and trying to coordinate.

       8              So at least at this point, the

       9   volunteers are getting the same training, and

      10   they're in the same place as OSHA employees.  We,

      11   obviously, look at them quite --

      12              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Will they be part of

      13   NIOSH's roster of people who are involved in the

      14   spill cleanup?

      15              DR. HOWARD:  Yes.

      16              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  The volunteers will be

      17   registered as well as workers?

      18              DR. HOWARD:  Yes.

      19              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Okay. Thank you.

      20              DR. HOWARD:  But, you know, BP has

      21   hired independent contractors to hire the cleanup

      22   workers.

                                                         120

       1              So if you push this jurisdictional

       2   issue too far, you know, there's probably precious

       3   few people in legal jurisdiction, because there

       4   are independent contractors between BP and the

       5   cleanup workers.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let's take a

       7   15-minute break, and we'll continue this

       8   discussion.

       9                     (RECESS TAKEN)

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  If the committee

      11   members would take their seats, please.

      12              Thank you.

      13              I would like to continue the discussion

      14   about oil spill issues, taking into account an

      15   obvious tension that exists in the function of a

      16   committee like this; namely, that the committee

      17   operates in slow motion, but events take place in

      18   realtime, and some of the needs of the agencies

      19   are in a much more immediate sense.

      20              And so we're going to need to consider

      21   what we can do over an extended period of time,

      22   but I also, by the end of the day, want to think

                                                         121

       1   about what we might be able to offer the agencies

       2   by the end of today on some of the issues of

       3   concern.

       4              Before coming back to that, though,

       5   Dr. Howard has only 45 more minutes with us, and I

       6   think there's some other issues of concern to

       7   NIOSH that the agency would like NACOSH to

       8   address, and so I'm going to give Dr. Howard a

       9   chance to go into some other areas.

      10          (INTRODUCTORY REMARKS BY DR. HOWARD)

      11              DR. HOWARD:  Thank you very much.  And

      12   I appreciate the allowance here.

      13              You know, one of the issues -- and I

      14   hope that this committee has a long life so that

      15   we can tackle some of these issues.

      16              One of the issues that we've all just

      17   recovered from, some of us personally, is the

      18   outbreak of H1N1 influenza.  And, as you know,

      19   that was a very difficult process for all of us

      20   starting, you know, last year, in April, and then

      21   extending through the fall and the beginning of

      22   2010.

                                                         122

       1              And one of the issues that arose, as we

       2   all know, was the issue of respiratory protection

       3   for health-care workers.  And in that arena, I

       4   think it would be helpful to have this committee

       5   look at that issue again for us.  I know for NIOSH

       6   it would be very helpful.

       7              We have, since that time, and I'd be

       8   happy to do any kind of direct presentation to a

       9   subcommittee of you all if you tackle this

      10   issue -- the basic issue has been between droplet

      11   and aerosol transmission as the relative

      12   contribution of each of those routes of

      13   transmission.

      14              Obviously, if droplet transmission is

      15   the sole way that influenza virus is transmitted,

      16   then the need for respiratory protection is less;

      17   if it's aerosol, then, obviously, it increases the

      18   need.

      19              There's precious little research in

      20   this area, but I'm happy to say that NIOSH is

      21   beginning that research in terms of getting

      22   additional evidence.  We have established a live

                                                         123

       1   virus laboratory in Morgantown, West Virginia, and

       2   we're looking at additional clinical transmission

       3   studies.

       4              But I think that issue and how we

       5   should approach it, God forbid, there should be

       6   another novel influenza virus that visits us next

       7   year or later this year, or even further in things

       8   we don't want to think about, an H5N1, or in avian

       9   influenza, which would have a substantial

      10   mortality rate.

      11              At least now, in southeast Asia and

      12   Indonesia, it's about 59 percent of the cases that

      13   have acquired H5N1 have succumbed to the virus.

      14              So I think, you know, we can't lose any

      15   time in serious consideration of this issue.  So

      16   we would love to hear this committee's advice on

      17   that issue of respiratory protection for H1N1 and

      18   any other research that you feel should be taking

      19   place that we're not doing.

      20              And again, we don't have time today to

      21   go into it, but I'd be happy to give you a

      22   presentation on that issue.

                                                         124

       1              A second issue, which is a little more

       2   fun than that one, has to do with the use of

       3   social media.

       4              As you know, Bill talked about, you

       5   know, getting the word out better than we do.

       6   There is an entire generation of folks, people in

       7   Generation X, and Millennials, who really don't

       8   read newspapers anymore, and we need to reach that

       9   population in the future.

      10              And it certainly is becoming apparent

      11   to us, through our own placement of our videos on

      12   YouTube and our photographs on Flickr, and our

      13   science blog that we do, our electronic newsletter

      14   that OSHA and NIOSH does, and our Twitter sites

      15   that we operate, and our contributions to

      16   Wikipedia that we put, that all of these types of

      17   social media are becoming more important.

      18              And how we adapt them to the

      19   occupational and safety health message --

      20   obviously, our messages are fairly ponderous

      21   sometimes, and not easily put in 140 characters.

      22              And how we do that, and recommendations

                                                         125

       1   along those lines, are extremely important for us,

       2   because we really feel this is highly relevant to

       3   our future.

       4              In addition to attracting future

       5   participants in occupational safety and health as

       6   a profession, because we always have that

       7   struggle.  In addition to communication with

       8   workers, employers and others, I think that's an

       9   important issue.

      10              So that's a second area.

      11              A third area that I would mention to

      12   you that I think is important for us is our

      13   Prevention Through Design initiative, which I'm

      14   happy to see that Dr. Michaels supports.  He was a

      15   speaker at our Green Jobs Conference, which is a

      16   subset of our Prevention Through Design, in

      17   December, after being in the job only a couple of

      18   days.

      19              And I'd love to have somebody come and

      20   make a full presentation to you on Prevention

      21   Through Design.  And what kind of issues that we

      22   can look at there, and what kind of contributions

                                                         126

       1   that you can make and advice that you can give us

       2   to hone that initiative, would be...

       3              I think it's entirely accessible to

       4   everybody on the panel.  I think we all have ideas

       5   about how to do this whole system of protecting

       6   workers better at the design and conceptual stage,

       7   instead of trying to retrofit and doing all these

       8   other things.  So those are just three ideas.

       9              I have many more, but those, I think,

      10   are the important ones that I'd like to put out

      11   today.  And as each meeting occurs, we'll be happy

      12   to give you some more ideas that you could comment

      13   on.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

      15              Thoughts about what Dr. Howard just

      16   said?

      17              Yes.

      18              (COMMENTS AND DISCUSSIONS ON

      19                 DR. HOWARD'S REMARKS)

      20              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Prevention

      21   Through Design.  I think that's fabulous, because

      22   we do a lot of retrofitting in the fire service,

                                                         127

       1   as far as with our trucks.

       2              For example, seat belts, the number two

       3   killer of firefighters are vehicle collisions, and

       4   you know, a lot of that are volunteers and POVs,

       5   but then a lot of those, also the remainder, are

       6   collisions in our trucks.

       7              And because the seat belts fit the way

       8   that they do, like for a truck, when you fully

       9   gear a firefighter and they have their breathing

      10   apparatus on, which is one of the things that we

      11   do tell them, that they have to be seated and

      12   belted before we leave the fire house, because

      13   many have been thrown and so forth, it's hard for

      14   a lot of the folks, the bigger folks, to actually

      15   really buckle a belt.

      16              So I know there's a lot of folks on the

      17   different committees within the fire service that

      18   try very hard to get this across to the different

      19   manufacturers, like a race car seat belt and so

      20   forth.  But that would help us enormously.

      21              Another thing that we see on trucks are

      22   the handles, and a lot of firefighters, because

                                                         128

       1   the belt doesn't fit, they don't have the belt

       2   connected correctly, and as they're trying to get

       3   in their gear and tighten their gear up, they hit

       4   the handle and fall out of the truck.

       5              I, myself, I retired from Montgomery

       6   County after 27 years of service and I've been

       7   with Alexandria for a couple now, but I've seen

       8   this happen in my career about eleven times, and a

       9   couple of times recently.

      10              What we've ended up doing is, like you

      11   said, retrofit, so that we have a flush door

      12   handle.

      13              So things like this would be fantastic,

      14   as well as for our female firefighters, the design

      15   of the ladders.  It would be so much easier -- the

      16   ladders are designed for shorter people.  They

      17   don't -- when you go to climb them or use them,

      18   they're kind of hard to utilize.

      19              So we've talked about that as well, as

      20   well as how they set on the truck and so on and so

      21   forth.

      22              But stepping up, a lot of our injuries

                                                         129

       1   occur, ankles, knee problems, from the height of

       2   the truck, and so forth.

       3              So this would be a big, big plus to

       4   help prevent injuries in the fire service.

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes?  Joe.

       6              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  I also want to offer

       7   some comments on Prevention Through Design.

       8              We were involved in the first NIOSH

       9   conference several years ago and also attended the

      10   Green Jobs Conference last December.

      11              When we look at what we call

      12   sustainability at Johnson & Johnson, we're really

      13   looking at the triple bottom line, which is the

      14   environmental side and the social side, as well as

      15   the economic side.  And that's where we see

      16   Prevention Through Design really coming into play,

      17   because we can look at the occupational safety

      18   issues of a job, as well as the green aspects of a

      19   product in the process.

      20              So we're very supportive of tying those

      21   two together, particularly, that's why I was

      22   interested in the Green Jobs Conference, because

                                                         130

       1   as we look at green jobs, we really have to

       2   consider the health and safety aspects, make sure

       3   that we're protecting the worker as well as the

       4   environment.  So we're very supportive of that

       5   effort.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I saw another hand.

       7              Yes.

       8              DR. BUCHAN:  I don't know how you could

       9   implement this nationwide, but early in my career,

      10   I worked for the United States Air Force, and any

      11   new building, any new facility, any change in

      12   process, had to go through bioenvironmental

      13   engineering, where I was housed as an industrial

      14   hygienist.

      15              I don't know if we could have companies

      16   require the same thing.  They may have to go out

      17   to consultants or whatever.  But I think this was

      18   almost 40 years ago, so they were doing Prevention

      19   Through Design a long time ago, and it seemed to

      20   work very well.

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Bill Borwegen.

      22              MR. BORWEGEN:  Bill Borwegen, SEIU.

                                                         131

       1              Yeah, I know we have a whole department

       2   in our organization dealing with new media, and I

       3   don't think anybody in this department is older

       4   than 30, I don't know if that's a prerequisite,

       5   but, I mean, you know, it's clear that, you know,

       6   the integral role that all of this new media plays

       7   in communications.

       8              And, again, I go back to my, you

       9   know -- I mean, the bunker mentality hasn't worked

      10   for 30 years.  I mean, it's not like OSHA's budget

      11   has gotten bigger, you know, as a result of this

      12   approach.

      13              So, I mean, there's an opportunity here

      14   for, I think, us to tell a good story.  I think

      15   OSHA and NIOSH are doing good work, and to the

      16   degree we can take advantage of this new media, I

      17   think that would be great.

      18              As far as the work that we've been

      19   doing on respiratory protection, that NIOSH has

      20   been incredibly helpful, around H1N1, I want to

      21   thank NIOSH for all of their work in this area.

      22              It's been kind of a real brutal

                                                         132

       1   process.  And, fortunately, you know, in addition

       2   to NIOSH's work, we've had a very healthy process

       3   going on with the Institute of Medicine.  And they

       4   had a meeting last week, talking about this issue

       5   some more.

       6              But, you know, I think we pretty much

       7   have concluded that we don't know what percentage

       8   of H1N1 is transmitted through the airborne route,

       9   but we do know that, in fact, there is an airborne

      10   component, and through the NIOSH work, we've

      11   identified that the virus particles are actually

      12   live virus particles.

      13              And the lab that you've just created in

      14   Morgantown is a step in the right direction to do

      15   the definitive research to figure out what is the

      16   contribution of airborne transmission of flu and

      17   how we should be protecting ourselves.

      18              But it would be important for this

      19   committee to look at this issue in more detail.

      20   And the reason I say that is because there's

      21   another FACA, who, you know, writes letters to the

      22   White House, trying to undermine respiratory

                                                         133

       1   protection for health-care workers, that's

       2   exclusively comprised of folks from the

       3   health-care industry.  And I don't know how they

       4   get away with it.  You know, maybe I should talk

       5   to Sarah.

       6              But, I mean, they don't have the, you

       7   know, the diversity of constituency groups like we

       8   have on this committee, and they've done a lot to

       9   try to undermine respiratory protection.  And they

      10   don't have the expertise in the area like we do,

      11   with a better understanding of virus -- viral and

      12   respiratory protection, so I think we should look

      13   at that issue.

      14              So I thank you for that suggestion.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg Seminario?

      16              MS. SEMINARIO:  Peg Seminario, AFL-CIO.

      17              One issue that isn't listed on the

      18   agenda of topics for discussion, or that you've

      19   raised, Dr. Howard, is the issue of exposure

      20   limits, admissible exposure limits.  And it's one

      21   that clearly is an area that's evidenced by our

      22   earlier discussion, where what's in place right

                                                         134

       1   now under OSHA regulations are woefully old, out

       2   of date, non-existent.

       3              And this is an area where NIOSH, under

       4   the statute, was clearly intended to play a major

       5   role in coming up with recommendations for

       6   standards, and for a long time was very actively

       7   involved in coming up with recommendations, and

       8   you still do have a process for putting forward

       9   recommended exposure limits.

      10              I know that there is an effort

      11   underway -- maybe Dr. Michaels can talk about it a

      12   little bit more -- to have a discussion about how

      13   to address exposure limits.

      14              But it would seem to me that this is an

      15   area that has just been neglected for so long, in

      16   looking on the health side of the equation here,

      17   and looking at health standards, and exposure

      18   levels, that it is one that really does need to be

      19   tackled.

      20              And it's, you know, incredibly

      21   difficult.  It's daunting, challenging, for lots

      22   of different reasons.  But we'd just like to hear

                                                         135

       1   from you as to what NIOSH is doing in this area,

       2   and what work you and OSHA are looking at, and

       3   what kind of priority this is for NIOSH at this

       4   point in time.

       5              DR. HOWARD:  If I could respond, it's a

       6   very high priority.  My list of three, because I

       7   only limited myself to three, there's actually

       8   about ten or twelve -- but that certainly is on

       9   the list.

      10              And, you know, at this time, as

      11   everybody probably knows, as Bill has mentioned,

      12   and as you have mentioned, you know, our resources

      13   have not been limitless.  At the same time, we've

      14   acquired a whole bunch of new and emerging

      15   hazards.  So, I do think we have a residual

      16   recommended exposure limit, OEL process, and we do

      17   do that.

      18              But we don't do it in the way that it

      19   was designed by the act, and we certainly don't do

      20   it in the intensity that we saw in the late '70s

      21   or early '80s.

      22              And as I've said to anyone who would

                                                         136

       1   listen, to stakeholders, if you think this is an

       2   important activity that we need enriched, we are

       3   happy to do it.  We have talented toxicologists,

       4   risk assessors, et cetera, that are engaged in

       5   this.

       6              In fact, we're working on a recommended

       7   exposure limit now for diacetyl, in association

       8   with the OSHA folks who are working on a

       9   recommended exposure limit for carbon nanotubules

      10   now.  So we are doing work in that area, but we

      11   would love to increase the through-put in that

      12   area.

      13              We, for the first time, are very

      14   excited by the National Occupational Safety and

      15   Health Administration being interested in this

      16   area.  As we all know, that interest has really

      17   not been there.  So we're very excited right now

      18   that OSHA has taken this task on.  We are very

      19   active partners, and we hope to continue that as

      20   the activity increases at OSHA.

      21              You know, as we all know, you know, the

      22   act was written in the late '60s, early '70s, and

                                                         137

       1   I think the vision of the framers was that we were

       2   to produce all of these recommended exposure

       3   limits, criteria documents, and we'd rush across

       4   the mall, run up to the stairs of the Perkins

       5   Building[phonetic], there would be somebody there

       6   from OSHA that would be anxious to take it, run in

       7   the building, and do a PEL and a standard out.

       8              Now, that vision hasn't turned out that

       9   way.  And I think we would love to see that vision

      10   being resurrected, and we would be happy to

      11   increase our through-put.

      12              And I think one of the issues that this

      13   committee could tackle is, you know, any

      14   recommendations that you-all have, advice for both

      15   agencies, you know, how should we start that

      16   process, how should we do it.

      17              Now, obviously, Dr. Michaels will talk

      18   about the process they've started, but I think

      19   it's an important issue for this committee, and it

      20   could be very enriching work, too.

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

      22              DR. MICHAELS:  Why don't I come back to

                                                         138

       1   that later, because we'll take advantage of

       2   Dr. Howard's time here.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Susan Randolph, did

       4   you have your hand up?

       5              MS. RANDOLPH:  Dr. Howard, you had

       6   talked about your use of social media, and I

       7   think, Bill, you had also mentioned that you used

       8   that a lot.

       9              And that's true at the University.

      10   We've had things come down, you know, to the dean,

      11   and how do we reach out to younger students, and

      12   other ways to incorporate learning?  And I think

      13   that's an important area.

      14              And I started thinking about our

      15   earlier discussion with the oil spill.  If there's

      16   some ways that we could be tapped into that, to

      17   try to reach out to the broader audience of the

      18   community about some of the risks and what they

      19   can do to help protect themselves.

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Roy Buchan.

      21              DR. BUCHAN:  I know how difficult it is

      22   to get the PELs changed.  I've watched this over

                                                         139

       1   the years.  And this is probably not possible.

       2   But, why can't we just throw the PELs out, and

       3   have OSHA adopt the recommended exposure levels of

       4   NIOSH?

       5              Don't do it one chemical at a time, but

       6   say these are the recommendations that we have had

       7   for years, and we are supposed to provide RELs, or

       8   PELs in OSHA -- I think -- I know it would be a

       9   huge legal problem, it might even need

      10   legislation, but I think that might be a short way

      11   of getting there.

      12              DR. HOWARD:  Yeah, actually in the

      13   house version of the Miner Act in 2006, one of the

      14   provisions there was that MSHA would have to adopt

      15   NIOSH RELs.  That was deleted from the Senate

      16   version, so it didn't make it in the final bill.

      17              So, yes, it is an idea that others have

      18   thought of, and yes, you would need congressional

      19   authorization.

      20              MR. DOOLEY:  Peter Dooley, with

      21   LaborSafe.

      22              While we're on the topic of PELs and

                                                         140

       1   such, I urge us to be really thinking about the

       2   principle of protecting and reducing exposure to

       3   the lowest possible limit, given the reality of

       4   the methods of control, including the whole issue

       5   of control banding, and ways to be looking at

       6   operations, and coming up with the best available

       7   technology to reduce exposures based on the

       8   operations, as opposed to just be thinking about

       9   monitoring for individual chemicals, and just to,

      10   you know, flip the perspective on that, and really

      11   be looking at how to accelerate that.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me comment on

      13   just two things.

      14              First of all, with regard to PELs, I

      15   think this is an extremely important area that

      16   we're now at least 40 years behind on, and we need

      17   to think through the approaches that can be taken

      18   to addressing the need.

      19              There are substantial legal and

      20   administrative barriers to moving ahead quickly,

      21   and I think that over time the committee might

      22   really be very helpful in providing some advice

                                                         141

       1   about how those barriers can be overcome.

       2              But I think it's important to keep in

       3   mind that there are scores of thousands of

       4   chemicals in commercial use, and industrial use.

       5   And even if we can speed up the regulatory

       6   process, attempting to regulate these chemicals

       7   one at a time is the equivalent of trying to

       8   season your food one grain of salt at a time.

       9              It just doesn't work.  We need a

      10   different paradigm.  That's why ideas like control

      11   banding are things that we at least ought to have

      12   on the table for discussion.

      13              With regard to the second subject,

      14   Prevention Through Design, I think that, again,

      15   this is an extremely important area that the

      16   committee might well devote a lot of attention to

      17   over the coming months.

      18              It's closely related to another subject

      19   which is linked to the leading causes of workplace

      20   injuries and illnesses, musculoskeletal disorders

      21   associated with cumulative stress and repeated

      22   trauma, as well as those that are associated with

                                                         142

       1   things like slips, trips and falls.

       2              So if we're talking about Prevention

       3   Through Design, we're also inevitably talking

       4   about occupational ergonomics and human factors

       5   engineering.

       6              And I was gratified to see, as I walked

       7   into the building today, that the sign in the

       8   lobby about safety day, or safety week, that uses

       9   the word "ergonomics," and I'm glad to see that

      10   that's back on the table.

      11                       (LAUGHTER)

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And I don't think we

      13   should be scared anymore about using the word,

      14   although it is important, obviously, for us to

      15   keep in mind the fact that regulatory efforts in

      16   this area were unsuccessful over the past ten

      17   years.

      18              But notwithstanding that, I think this

      19   is one of the major priority areas for all of us

      20   in the fields of workplace safety and health, and

      21   it would be irresponsible for us to fail to

      22   attempt to provide some advice to agencies about

                                                         143

       1   how to move forward in preventing the most common

       2   and costly sources of workplace injury and

       3   illness.

       4              Are there thoughts for Dr. Howard, in

       5   particular?

       6              Yes, please, Joe.

       7              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten,

       8   Johnson & Johnson.

       9              Dr. Howard, I just wanted to put on the

      10   table my interest in road safety.  We've had

      11   discussions about this over the years, and I know

      12   NIOSH has been very supportive.  They sponsored

      13   the conference on road safety last year.

      14              I would encourage you to stay involved

      15   in this area, embrace the Decade of Action that

      16   the United Nations has called for.  There are 1.4

      17   million deaths each year across the globe related

      18   to road injuries, and we want to stay involved.

      19              So, I know we've talked about some

      20   research into the effectiveness of

      21   company-sponsored fleet safety programs.  I think

      22   this research at NIOSH would be very helpful in

                                                         144

       1   understanding how we prevent the thousands of

       2   deaths that happen each year on U.S. roads,

       3   associated with driving for work.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Dr. Howard, you look

       5   like you're either going to leave or say something

       6   else, one of the two.

       7              DR. HOWARD:  I just wanted to say,

       8   yeah, I mean, we'd be happy to come and do a

       9   presentation to the committee on

      10   transportation-related issues and road safety,

      11   because it is a continuing legacy program of

      12   NIOSH's, and we'd be thrilled to do that.

      13              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten again.

      14              Let me just follow-up to say that

      15   sometimes it falls -- the drivers I'm talking

      16   about fall into a regulatory gap.  Because I'm

      17   talking about drivers who drive on company

      18   business, either drive their own vehicle, or a

      19   company-owned vehicle.  They're not subject to the

      20   DOT commercial driver regulations, and there

      21   really are no regulations that address improving

      22   that kind of driver's capability.

                                                         145

       1              DR. HOWARD:  Right.  And, you know, our

       2   vision is never limited by regulatory limits.

       3                       (LAUGHTER)

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think Emory Knowles

       5   had one more question.

       6              MR. KNOWLES:  Just one, Dr. Howard.

       7              Prevention Through Design initiative,

       8   are there any efforts being focused on the aging

       9   workforce?

      10              DR. HOWARD:  Well, we have an entire

      11   work life program that we'd be happy to come and

      12   give you a presentation on.  And a component of

      13   that work life program is the significant

      14   demographic that this country, as well as a number

      15   of different countries in western Europe, China,

      16   Japan, Australia, are facing in the aging

      17   workforce.

      18              The proportion of the American

      19   workforce that will be 50 or over will be

      20   increasing significantly.  Plus, we don't have

      21   workers coming into that -- those lower age

      22   cohorts in the numbers that we've had before,

                                                         146

       1   because of the baby boom generation.

       2              It's always interesting to me that

       3   we're juxtaposing the word "baby boomer" and

       4   "aging workforce" together.  Somehow it's the same

       5   people, but they're being described in different

       6   parts of their lifespan.

       7                       (LAUGHTER)

       8              DR. HOWARD:  But, anyway, so, we'd be

       9   happy to come and talk to you, and get the

      10   director of our work life program to come and talk

      11   to you about the aging workforce.  It's a topic

      12   that I've been talking about.  I just gave a

      13   presentation to the AIJ meeting in Denver on that

      14   issue, so ...

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Dr. Howard, I want to

      16   thank you for --

      17              DR. HOWARD:  Sorry that oil calls come,

      18   but I've got to --

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  We understand that,

      20   and I think we all appreciate the importance of

      21   the topics that you just placed on the table, and

      22   we are certainly going to want to come back and

                                                         147

       1   get more information and get into --

       2              DR. HOWARD:  And there's plenty more

       3   where those came from.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And I think we also

       5   appreciate your restraint.

       6                       (LAUGHTER)

       7         (RETURNING TO COMMENTS AND DISCUSSION

       8                ON GULF OIL SPILL ISSUE)

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

      10              I think that before the end of the day,

      11   we can come back and pick up a bit on some of the

      12   topics that Dr. Howard put on the table.

      13              But at this point, I'd like to return

      14   to the discussion about oil spill issues.  And I'd

      15   like to ask Dr. Michaels if he might be able to

      16   help guide us towards the best way that we can

      17   provide you and NIOSH some assistance in

      18   addressing these issues, both in an immediate

      19   sense and a longer term sense.

      20              DR. MICHAELS:  Well, first, I should

      21   say, you certainly have already.  I mean, a number

      22   of your comments were very useful and certainly

                                                         148

       1   ones that Dr. Howard and I will bring back to our

       2   own organizations and to the incident command

       3   system.

       4              I think one perspective for us we can

       5   take is, this really will become a long-term

       6   activity for OSHA, for NIOSH, and for the country.

       7   I mean, this oil, clearly, will not be cleaned up

       8   immediately.  The flow hasn't stopped.

       9              The systems that we've set up, the

      10   recommendations that we've been given, need to be

      11   examined and looked at and changed as appropriate.

      12              So I guess what I'd like to see is some

      13   process where this group can really be helpful to

      14   us in terms of suggesting ways to rethink some of

      15   the things we're doing, to change -- you know, as

      16   both the current situation, and also as our

      17   hazardous assessment changes, as the employment

      18   situation changes on everything, you know, we

      19   can't expect things a month from now to look as

      20   they look now.

      21              So, perhaps having some sort of work

      22   group that can informally meet -- I know that

                                                         149

       1   formally you can't give us any recommendations,

       2   though perhaps by the end of the day you might be

       3   able to give us some just general ones.

       4              But, to have a working group that might

       5   be able to call on other people as well, I think

       6   that would be really helpful to us.

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Reactions and

       8   thoughts about that.  Two suggestions that

       9   Dr. Michaels has made:

      10              One is that we consider setting up an

      11   ongoing work group to look at issues as they

      12   evolve over time.

      13              But also, secondly, to provide, if we

      14   can, some more specific recommendations by the end

      15   of today, understanding that with just one day, we

      16   can't possibly get into issues in great detail.

      17              Yes.  Roy Buchan.

      18              DR. BUCHAN:  I have a question, and

      19   maybe we need a legal analysis.

      20              But we talk about setting up work

      21   groups.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.

                                                         150

       1              DR. BUCHAN:  We do not have all the

       2   expertise in the world at this table.

       3              Can we call in adjunct people to help

       4   us in work groups?

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.  And I can

       6   answer this one myself, although I'm always

       7   grateful for legal clarification.

       8              The rules, the operational rules for

       9   the committee not only allow me as the chair to

      10   establish subcommittees or work groups, but the

      11   rules also indicate that the committee may ask the

      12   assistant secretary to provide experts and

      13   consultants to help in those activities.

      14              And I think I heard Dr. Michaels say

      15   earlier that that might be appropriate.

      16              DR. MICHAELS:  No, we expect that.  I

      17   mean, obviously, you have great expertise in this

      18   room, but there are areas where we would need

      19   additional assistance on as well.

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Not

      21   surprisingly, Sarah Shortall would like to expand

      22   on that.

                                                         151

       1              MS. SHORTALL:  While the chair and the

       2   DFO do have the ability to establish

       3   subcommittees, technically subcommittees are not

       4   covered under FACA, which means some of the same

       5   rules do not apply.

       6              That said, it has always been OSHA's

       7   practice, to the extent possible, to make the

       8   subcommittee meetings open to any interested party

       9   who might like to participate.

      10              The other sub -- I mean, the other

      11   advisor groups, most notably ACCOSH, that has a

      12   broad history of using work groups, tends to

      13   establish work groups.  And it has them meet in

      14   conjunction with their advisory committee

      15   meetings, so like the day before or the day after

      16   they meet, that allows any member of the public to

      17   come in and participate.

      18              And they do announce those with a

      19   Federal Register notice.

      20              While members of the public certainly

      21   are permitted to participate in the committees,

      22   any voting that would be done to move a measure

                                                         152

       1   out to the committee would be limited to those

       2   persons who are on NACOSH.

       3              But it's pretty common for

       4   subcommittees to try to get a consensus or a sense

       5   of the room about where issues are.

       6              The other thing that's important to

       7   know, and keep a record of, is that subcommittees

       8   should be reporting back to NACOSH on a regular

       9   basis, even if they don't have a finished product.

      10              So as there's the normal overturn, or

      11   turning over of new members on the committee, we

      12   will have a record of what has occurred in the

      13   subcommittee.

      14              So I know that the -- well, I'm going

      15   to use ACCOSH as an example, but FACOSH does this

      16   too.  At every meeting they have oral and written

      17   reports from their subcommittee that are entered

      18   into the record, and any materials that come from

      19   the subcommittee that are brought to the whole

      20   parent committee are also put in the record.

      21              So you have an interesting history of

      22   what's going on, and you can keep track of what

                                                         153

       1   the subcommittee has helped the parent group as a

       2   whole accomplish.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg, and then Emory.

       4              MS. SEMINARIO:  Peg Seminario, AFL-CIO.

       5              Just to follow up on this, one thing

       6   that I think would be helpful in this particular

       7   issue and area on the Gulf Coast, both of you

       8   mentioned it, is looking at this whole area of

       9   respiratory protection, and given the exposures,

      10   there's still information being gathered, the

      11   exposure assessments are still going on.

      12              But trying to think about how to get

      13   that input and that expertise pulled together, in

      14   using this committee or subgroup to do so, would

      15   it be possible to essentially have a working group

      16   set up on these issues?  And that the committee

      17   could sponsor and NACOSH could sponsor a public

      18   meeting, or a workshop, technical workshop, to

      19   come in and have some presentations, look at this.

      20              And so, gathering information in a

      21   public forum, bringing in outside experts, but

      22   then using the committee process to come forward

                                                         154

       1   with some recommendations.  Because I understand

       2   that just a workshop couldn't necessarily make

       3   policy recommendations.

       4              So trying to figure out how we use the

       5   structure of the committee, our -- you know, I was

       6   looking at our responsibilities here, but making

       7   it something that's timely and useful, and more

       8   substantive in providing input to the agency, and

       9   just thinking about that as a possible activity

      10   that might be, you know, useful to try to engage

      11   in as soon as possible.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  My understanding is

      13   that, procedurally, that's something that is

      14   possible, and that in the past, NACOSH groups have

      15   sponsored forums or panel discussions on various

      16   subjects.

      17              Sarah?

      18              MS. SHORTALL:  I'd like to say that in

      19   context.

      20              As part of the notice of all meetings,

      21   there is a requirement to allow the public to

      22   submit comments on any topic, including those

                                                         155

       1   topics that are before an agency.

       2              Although, in the case of NACOSH, we

       3   don't normally have oral presentations done, as

       4   time, and in the discretion of the chair permits,

       5   you can always have members of the public come

       6   here and speak.

       7              It would have to be done in the

       8   context, though, of an actual NACOSH meeting, or

       9   if you wanted to have a subcommittee that you held

      10   open.

      11              Subcommittees are not transcripted.

      12   Only the full committee itself is transcripted.

      13   So if you wanted to have a good record of it,

      14   you'd want to have that.

      15              It is very common on other committees

      16   for the committee to ask the agency or others from

      17   the public to come and give a presentation on an

      18   issue that is of great concern to the committee.

      19   And that's very common on all the other groups.  I

      20   would say every, at every meeting of the other

      21   advisory groups there's always outside

      22   presentations being made.

                                                         156

       1              But you can, if you wanted to, give

       2   time for the public to come in and speak at your

       3   meetings.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think that if

       5   committee members agree that the idea that you're

       6   suggesting is a good one, then we can certainly

       7   figure out a way procedurally to accomplish it.  I

       8   don't doubt that it can be done.

       9              Yes, Emory.

      10              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles, and I'm

      11   showing my age here.

      12              But NACOSH has effectively used

      13   subcommittees in the past.

      14              When I first started my tenure on this

      15   committee, one of your predecessors implemented

      16   the use of work groups, was publicly announced,

      17   members of the public participated.

      18              Outside of this meeting, there were

      19   subsequent telephone call conferences and so on.

      20              One initiative that I worked with was

      21   the Hispanic worker outreach initiative, and we

      22   had members above OSHA, NIOSH involved, plus

                                                         157

       1   several members of the committee.

       2              The end result of all that, sort of a

       3   white paper was put together, it was submitted

       4   back to the formal committee and to the agency,

       5   with various recommendations.

       6              So it has been used effectively in the

       7   past.  And, you know, my term will be coming up

       8   this fall, but I would strongly urge this

       9   committee, those of you who do remain on the

      10   committee into the future, to utilize these

      11   subgroups to involve not only members of the

      12   committee, but outside participants, in discussing

      13   these types of initiatives and moving issues

      14   forward.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Setting aside for

      16   just the time being the issue of how we would do

      17   something, as I understand it, the specific

      18   suggestion that Peg has placed on the table is

      19   that we establish a work group that deals with oil

      20   spill issues, that, among other considerations

      21   that the group pay special attention to questions

      22   regarding respiratory protection, and that we

                                                         158

       1   consider having some type of public forum that

       2   would -- as well as engaging expert advice and

       3   assistance in addressing that subject.

       4              Peg, did I characterize that correctly?

       5              MS. SEMINARIO:  Yes.

       6              And let me just get a little bit more

       7   context.  One of the things we've seen with some

       8   of the other agencies who are grappling with

       9   issues in the Gulf, EPA dealing with the

      10   dispersant issue, is that they don't have all the

      11   expertise, but pulling together experts, putting

      12   some of the best minds together, to think about

      13   how do you approach this.

      14              And so, one of the things that I think

      15   that we should --

      16              Again, that would be helpful for OSHA

      17   and NIOSH to be doing, is all these thorny

      18   questions that you are facing, where the answers

      19   aren't so clear and you need the best thinking as

      20   to how to pull that together in some way that is

      21   both getting the expertise, but then also provides

      22   the agency input that they can use.

                                                         159

       1              And whether this committee in a

       2   subgroup would be a mechanism, or some other

       3   mechanism such as NIOSH calling a scientific

       4   meeting could be something that could be done, and

       5   that this committee could participate in that.

       6              So I think there are different

       7   approaches, but just suggesting that that kind of

       8   exploration at that level on some of these key

       9   issues, not every issue, I think, would be

      10   particularly helpful.

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, that's the

      12   suggestion that's on the table.

      13              So are there reactions from the

      14   committee or from Dr. Michaels?

      15              Yes, Jim.

      16              MR. SWARTZ:  Yes.  One of the things

      17   that, first of all, I like -- Jim Swartz.

      18              I like to point.

      19              But I'm also thinking of some of the

      20   various conversations that were held around the

      21   table today, looking at the various expertise

      22   around the table, talking about the number of

                                                         160

       1   things we talked about, 9/11; we talked about

       2   Exxon; we talked about H1N1; we talked about BP,

       3   and we talked about long-term growth of this

       4   group.

       5              Does it appear that this may be a topic

       6   for something like emergency response, or crisis

       7   management, at which point in time we bring in

       8   over time respiratory protection as a part of this

       9   review, community involvement as a part of this

      10   review.

      11              It's a big job, I understand that, but

      12   there's an awful lot out there.  We actually start

      13   building, which is moving towards a longer term,

      14   ongoing work that this group can do.

      15              So I just throw that out as a broader

      16   scope approach, including respirators as part of

      17   the longer term approach.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Linda Rae Murray?

      19              DR. MURRAY:  I just want to summarize

      20   what I think I'm hearing, and see if that's

      21   reasonable.

      22              I did hear, and I hope we can before

                                                         161

       1   the end of the day, have some broad

       2   recommendations, since that's our task, to give to

       3   NIOSH and OSHA, around the Gulf.

       4              I do support having a work group with a

       5   charge that in some ways is more technical than

       6   what you just said.

       7              So I do think respiratory protection

       8   may not be the only area that we want to look at,

       9   but I do think some more concentrated work by a

      10   work group -- and my understanding from what we

      11   said, it doesn't have to be just the people at

      12   this table -- where recommendations would flow

      13   back through this committee, would be a useful

      14   thing.

      15              And, hopefully, before the end of the

      16   day we could sort of be clear about what that work

      17   group -- whether we agree with that and what that

      18   work group might do.

      19              The third thing I want to say, though,

      20   is picking up on what Jim said, and that is a

      21   little broader approach.  You know, we're not the

      22   only advisory committee that exists in this arena,

                                                         162

       1   so there are a million advisory committees and,

       2   hopefully, all of them are giving advice.

       3              But I would encourage NIOSH and OSHA

       4   and EPA and other people to use as many forums as

       5   possible to bring together people and to talk

       6   about the Gulf.

       7              And one thing that's coming up, which

       8   usually all three agencies have a presence at, for

       9   example, there's APHA in the fall.

      10              Because I do think that Jim's point

      11   about a broader response, the comments I made

      12   earlier about not just bringing in occupational

      13   and safety and health experts, but having a little

      14   broader public health response.

      15              What kinds of things do we need to be

      16   doing?  What kinds of things should primary care

      17   providers and nurses be looking for in the Gulf

      18   region?  You know, what kinds of advice should

      19   pediatricians be giving?  So a little broader

      20   approach.

      21              So we should look for forums that

      22   already exist, activities and meetings that are

                                                         163

       1   already set.

       2              Like EPHA, like, NACHO[phonetic] is

       3   coming up in July, or whatever, so that that

       4   information could be put out there, and

       5   solicitation of points of view and comments and

       6   recommendations, not formal recommendations, but,

       7   you know, advice could be solicited.

       8              So, to me, this is part of the media

       9   approach that we talked about.  And media is not

      10   just a one-way, "This is what we want you to

      11   know," it's really a two-way issue.

      12              So I think by just being a little bit

      13   thoughtful in making sure that at those meetings

      14   that we know that we traditionally go to, that the

      15   agencies traditionally go to, that we do some

      16   stuff to make sure that we have some special

      17   opportunities to deal with the Gulf around those

      18   issues.

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Bill Borwegen.

      20              MR. BORWEGEN:  Well, the workers, the

      21   companies, the reporters, they're at home in

      22   Louisiana today.  You know, I feel that we should

                                                         164

       1   be there.  We should be doing some focus groups,

       2   talking to the workers, thinking about experts we

       3   need to bring in on this.

       4              We need to reorient the media's

       5   attention about, you know, respirators are a

       6   piece, but what about all of these other factors?

       7              Too bad -- I mean, it would have been a

       8   learning opportunity, it would have been a good

       9   opportunity to kind of reorient to the media

      10   discussion to make it more relevant.

      11              So with that said, I think we should

      12   figure out a way to get down there quick, and you

      13   know, a public forum or whatever, to figure out

      14   really what's going on down there.

      15              We have a two-day meeting and one day

      16   walking on the beach, right?  Have a tar ball

      17   fight.

      18                       (LAUGHTER)

      19              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.

      20              Just a comment.  Yeah, this committee

      21   setting up a subgroup, that's looking at a longer

      22   term.  There's already a model out there you can

                                                         165

       1   look at and utilize.  That's the National

       2   Nanotechnology Initiative.  Brought in experts

       3   around the globe to focus in on that particular

       4   issue.

       5              This particular disaster that we have,

       6   you know, with this oil spill, needs immediate

       7   attention, does need experts, global experts,

       8   pulled in now to look at this.

       9              Why can't we use something like the

      10   model of the NNI to move forward to look at all

      11   these issues quickly and rapidly, to protect the

      12   workers, the public, the environment, the whole

      13   shebang.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg Seminario.

      15              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, I think there's

      16   some pragmatic issues, because I think to set that

      17   up -- I'm just saying, I think right now what the

      18   agencies are facing is obviously over 10,000

      19   people, could be 20,000 people, who are out there,

      20   who are involved in a variety of cleanup

      21   activities, and that they've got to protect those

      22   folks.

                                                         166

       1              And so our charge right now, I think,

       2   is to give them the best advice at dealing with

       3   the immediate issues that they are facing, which

       4   sounds to me are issues of fatigue, whether or not

       5   respiratory protection, kind of a PPE.

       6              And also I think in the area of trying

       7   to do follow-up and surveillance, which we

       8   shouldn't lose site of on that side of things,

       9   which is more HHS and NIOSH, but certainly within

      10   our purview.

      11              So I think that our immediate task is

      12   that, because between now and November, DHA,

      13   there's going to be a lot of exposures, and you

      14   know, much of the work will be done.

      15              And so there's things that we should be

      16   learning from, as we go forward, but our primary

      17   task and the agency's primary task is to protect

      18   people now.  So I would suggest in our discussion

      19   we should focus on those areas of immediate

      20   concern, and how we can best assist the agencies

      21   in making these difficult decisions and making

      22   sure that workers are protected.

                                                         167

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me just do a

       2   little bit of reality testing here.

       3              Without being specific about the charge

       4   that might be given to a work group, is there -- I

       5   want to see if there's general agreement that we

       6   ought to be setting up a work group that addresses

       7   these issues over an extended period of time.

       8              MR. BORWEGEN:  I support that, but I

       9   think David needs to call on existing resources

      10   that are immediately available to him.

      11              Probably the best group in the country

      12   on respiratory protection is located in

      13   Pittsburgh, and it's under the direction of NIOSH.

      14              The other thing that you can do, there

      15   are many experts in the national laboratories

      16   across the country, such as Lawrence Livermore, or

      17   Los Alamos, or so on.

      18              But I think, probably, if you need

      19   immediate help, I would go to the NIOSH

      20   respiratory protection group.

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Roy, I appreciate

      22   what you're saying there.  There's certainly a

                                                         168

       1   number of immediate needs that OSHA and NIOSH need

       2   to address that this group can't fulfill.

       3              But I would like to see if we can reach

       4   some decision on this question of whether or not

       5   we should set up a work group.  And, if so, we can

       6   talk about exactly what its charge should be.

       7              And we still have the question that Peg

       8   raised about whether or not we can make some

       9   immediate recommendations that will be useful in

      10   realtime.

      11              So back to the basic question here:  Is

      12   there anyone here who has reservations about

      13   establishing a work group, with charge still to be

      14   articulated, on oil spill response issues?

      15              Yes?

      16              MR. BORWEGEN:  Technical --

      17              So a question for Sarah.  Can the work

      18   group, for instance, go down to Houma next week,

      19   and have a public forum where we get input from --

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That's a -- hold on

      21   to that question.

      22              I want to get a sense from the

                                                         169

       1   committee on whether or not we should set up a

       2   work group.  Let's go one step at a time here.

       3              DR. BUCHAN:  A work group to do what?

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  A work group that

       5   will help the agency, that will help us to advise

       6   the agency on issues relating to oil spill

       7   recovery in the Gulf, with specific charge still

       8   to be articulated.

       9              Yes?

      10              MR. BORWEGEN:  Well, the reason I --

      11   because I don't know if it needs to be the full

      12   committee, or a work group.  It depends what the

      13   ability of the work group is, to how much -- how

      14   much the work group could do, you know.

      15              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, I think one of

      16   the things here -- you know, the work group can be

      17   a big work group.

      18              But I think that the specific charge

      19   here, that this is going to be an area of

      20   immediate work, and I would recommend and move

      21   that we set up a work group.

      22              I do think it's a very good idea to

                                                         170

       1   have a structure that has this as a particular

       2   area of focus.  Then we can figure out all the

       3   pieces of it.  But I think it's too difficult to

       4   do as a full committee, given the rules of the

       5   committee itself.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I'm going to try to

       7   avoid some formal decision-making process, with,

       8   you know, invoking the Robert's Rules, et cetera,

       9   if that's possible, and if that's allowable.

      10              I don't think that the rules require

      11   that we have formal votes and formal motions.

      12              So I'm trying to get ...

      13              (INAUDIBLE WHISPERING)

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That's what I

      15   thought.

      16              What I'm being advised by counsel is

      17   that, as chair, I can establish a work group, but

      18   it would be wise for me to ask whether or not

      19   people would have reservations to doing that --

      20   objections to doing that.

      21              And I could invoke Robert's Rules of

      22   order, but I am choosing not to do so.

                                                         171

       1              So, unless I hear strong objections, I

       2   would like to establish a work group of this

       3   committee that will address issues related to oil

       4   spill recovery in the Gulf.

       5              And that later in the day we come back

       6   to have a more full discussion about what the

       7   exact charge of that committee should be.

       8              And that we hold on asking for

       9   volunteers to be on that work group, until we see

      10   what other issues we may be considering.

      11           (WORK GROUP ESTABLISHED CONCERNING

      12                    GULF OIL SPILL)

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Let's have a

      14   bit of a discussion about the other question that

      15   Peg raised, and I think Linda Rae also raised,

      16   relating to whether or not, despite the

      17   limitations we have in time and the limitations on

      18   our own expertise, are there some more immediate

      19   recommendations that we can be making to OSHA and

      20   NIOSH with regard to oil spill issues that may be

      21   helpful to the agencies?

      22              Peter?

                                                         172

       1              MR. DOOLEY:  Well, I know one.  And I

       2   don't know if this is being done currently, but to

       3   really be trying to do pilot studies, to identify

       4   what are the best possible protective measures

       5   that are possible and practical in the situation;

       6   and to be utilizing, you know, that as a model to

       7   find out what really works in the real world, and

       8   to replicate that in the various other areas, you

       9   know, of concern.

      10              And I'll just throw in the other one,

      11   is the idea of more peer -- you know, more

      12   training and education for various groups of

      13   workers that are able to be trainers for other

      14   groups of workers and also monitors, and being

      15   able to spread the available technology for

      16   protective measures.

      17              DR. MICHAELS:  If I could respond.

      18              I find that a very appealing idea,

      19   following up on Linda's point, that this is not

      20   [inaudible] to learn when crises like these occur

      21   and we're faced with situations out of the

      22   ordinary.  We should, obviously, grab those

                                                         173

       1   opportunities to learn for future activities.

       2              And perhaps, you know, OSHA isn't an

       3   organization with a great experience in

       4   evaluation, but we certainly have partners in

       5   health and human services who have worked on those

       6   issues.  And we've talked about that in other

       7   fora, so I think that would be a very worthwhile

       8   thing for us to pursue.

       9              I know if you wanted to spend more time

      10   on that to flesh out that as a recommendation, as

      11   things to look at, I think that would be very

      12   helpful to us.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, I think what

      14   I'd like to do -- and members of the committee can

      15   tell me if this sounds workable or not.

      16              I think that between now and the lunch

      17   break, we have 45 minutes, I think we can probably

      18   get out on the table a couple of areas in which we

      19   might be able to make specific recommendations by

      20   the end of the day.

      21              And if we can get two or three or four

      22   ideas out on the table, then it would be possible

                                                         174

       1   to assign a couple of people during the lunch

       2   break to try to do some wordsmithing with specific

       3   language, that we could then come back to later in

       4   the day.

       5              Does that sound like it might be a

       6   possible way to go?

       7              Let's try, then.

       8              Peter, why don't you pursue a little

       9   bit further the idea that you're suggesting.  I'm

      10   not sure I caught all of it.

      11              MR. DOOLEY:  Well, essentially, to --

      12   and I don't know whether this would be having --

      13   you know, who would set up the program.

      14              But basically, to have pilot programs

      15   that would be trying to identify the best

      16   available protective measures, including

      17   respiratory protection, that would be practical in

      18   the various tasks that various workers are doing.

      19              So it would be kind of a control

      20   banding kind of process, where you have workers

      21   who are doing such-and-such jobs, and the

      22   practical methods that they could be using for

                                                         175

       1   protection would be tried out and really kind of

       2   explored.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  So that's one

       4   possible area in which we would make a specific

       5   recommendation.

       6              Yes, Emory.

       7              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.

       8              Just another quick comment.  There are

       9   a number of professional organizations out there,

      10   who I'm sure would readily step up to the plate

      11   and offer recommendations.  The American Society

      12   of Safety Engineers, the American Industrial

      13   Hygiene Association, System Safety Society, any

      14   number of other engineering societies who may also

      15   be able to provide recommendations on Prevention

      16   Through Design, for example.

      17              But they're out there, they have

      18   standing committees in many of the areas we've

      19   already talked about.  They developed standards

      20   for outside organizations such as ANSI.  So there

      21   are groups of experts out there.  Again, just kind

      22   of a recommendation to reach out to them and ask

                                                         176

       1   what they can provide.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Linda Rae?

       3              DR. MURRAY:  I don't want to lose what

       4   Peter said in the very beginning.  And I think I'm

       5   going to try and -- I think we've said some things

       6   earlier before the break, that could be made into

       7   recommendations, too.

       8              But Peter is talking specifically about

       9   an effort -- an intentional effort to look at

      10   different work methods of protection.

      11              Which I'm assuming would also include

      12   the work periods; right?

      13              MR. DOOLEY:  Sure.

      14              DR. MURRAY:  The other things, though,

      15   that could be part of that, but I want to make

      16   sure it's broader than that, I would like to

      17   recommend that we have British Petroleum, and

      18   whoever else is financially responsible, set up a

      19   pot of money for evaluation in general.

      20              You know, how effective was the public

      21   education?  How effective were these different

      22   methods?  What is the impact on communities?

                                                         177

       1              And I'm envisioning that pot to be

       2   handled by, you know, a committee of different

       3   government agencies and maybe some academic --

       4   NIH, I don't care who.

       5              So that we have both private, academic,

       6   as well as internal governmental researchers look

       7   at that, design the studies going forward, and

       8   have some resources to really try to evaluate how

       9   effective the response was, what's the ongoing

      10   impact, et cetera.

      11              So I don't know, I want to call that

      12   sort of pilot studies, or studies in general,

      13   evaluations or something like that.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me put one other

      15   possible recommendation on the table, coming from

      16   discussions we had earlier.  And this goes to the

      17   issue of work hours and fatigue-related problems.

      18              I've been trying to scribble some

      19   stuff, which isn't nearly articulated enough, but

      20   this would give you a general idea.

      21              I think we might be able to do

      22   something along these lines:  Indicate that there

                                                         178

       1   is substantial evidence that long hours of work,

       2   both measured on a daily and a weekly basis,

       3   especially under conditions of physical exertion

       4   and heat exposure, are known to be associated with

       5   injuries and other adverse health effects.

       6              And while NACOSH cannot at this time

       7   recommend specific limits on work hours, the

       8   committee feels, or believes, that 12 hours a day

       9   under these conditions, and 65 hours a week, or 60

      10   hours a week are excessive.

      11              And that, therefore, we would advise

      12   OSHA and NIOSH to expedite the establishment of

      13   specific rules and/or guidelines regarding work

      14   hours for Gulf workers and others, including,

      15   possibly -- and I throw this out with a big

      16   capital letters "possibly" -- the use of OSHA's

      17   authority to establish emergency temporary

      18   standards.

      19              So I throw that -- without getting hung

      20   up on the wording, I'm suggesting that we might

      21   come up with a recommendation of that sort.

      22              Peg Seminario?  Peg, and then --

                                                         179

       1              MS. SEMINARIO:  I would support that

       2   recommendation, but there are two areas that I

       3   want to just put forward here for consideration.

       4              It's really following up on what Peter

       5   was talking about, and trying to figure out a

       6   systematic way to try to tie some of this

       7   together.

       8              John Howard talked about how they're

       9   right now doing an HHE to look and to follow up on

      10   what happened with the workers becoming sick, and

      11   that they hope to do more HHEs.

      12              And one way to think about this is to

      13   recommend to NIOSH, either through an HHE process,

      14   or whatever process, that looking at these

      15   different areas of work and exposure, and in each

      16   of these do an assessment of the hazards, but do

      17   what you've said as well, looking at, by different

      18   operation here, what the exposures are, what the

      19   recommendations are, what practices are being

      20   used.

      21              And so I think it's really important

      22   that we try to figure out how to do some of these

                                                         180

       1   initiatives, in ways that are linked back to an

       2   ongoing effort of the agencies to gather this

       3   information, and then to utilize it.

       4              And so I would make a recommendation

       5   that in looking at these five different, you know,

       6   major areas of work and operation here, that NIOSH

       7   do formal health hazard evaluations with a

       8   complete exposure assessment, and look at the

       9   issues that you've talked about as well.

      10              One other area that I think is really

      11   important here, and it's following up on what

      12   Linda talked about, is that's resources.

      13              I mean, right now these agencies are

      14   real being stretched very thin, and the President

      15   talked about how BP pays, is going to pay for

      16   everything.

      17              I mean, who's paying for what's

      18   happening right now?

      19              And having a sense of what it actually

      20   is going to take, and not only in terms of the

      21   agencies' existing resources, but what outside

      22   resources might be needed to assist you in this

                                                         181

       1   effort?

       2              Because you can't do this all.  I mean,

       3   it would become the agency's entire activity for

       4   the next six months to a year.

       5              And all the other things that you're

       6   looking at doing will be swamped and overwhelmed,

       7   and so I think the resource issue is really,

       8   really key, in asking for the agencies to come up

       9   with an outline of what the resource needs are in

      10   this area, and getting, you know, getting that

      11   money in hand, and looking, as was suggested, some

      12   of the outside sources of help and assistance,

      13   because you certainly can't do this all alone.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg, I want to make

      15   sure I understand both of the two points you've

      16   raised.

      17              Am I correct in understanding that you

      18   are suggesting that NHHE, or HHEs, be the vehicles

      19   that would be used to accomplish the kinds of

      20   things that Peter suggested?

      21              MS. SEMINARIO:  That they could be

      22   folded into that, yes.  Yes.

                                                         182

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Secondly, with regard

       2   to resources, I would ask this of both you and

       3   Linda Rae.

       4              How does it -- I understand what you're

       5   saying about the need.  But keeping in mind the

       6   limitations that a committee like this has, what

       7   would be the nature of recommendations that we

       8   might make that would help the agencies to address

       9   those resource needs?

      10              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, one of the

      11   recommendations is, first of all, just to

      12   determine what they are, right?

      13              I mean, it would be very important for

      14   folks to understand what resources are there now,

      15   what they represent, and what is needed.  Right?

      16              I mean, there's -- and having a better

      17   sense of a needs assessment by both agencies in

      18   this area of what it is taking right now, and what

      19   it is going to take, in finding out what, you

      20   know, the people, the budget.

      21              And, if you don't have the people

      22   in-house now to do the job that is needed, you

                                                         183

       1   know, where could you go to supplement those

       2   resources?

       3              And again, making sure that BP is

       4   paying for this as well.

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  That helps.

       6              I think Roy Buchan had his hand up.

       7              DR. BUCHAN:  I have not, sitting here

       8   all morning, I have not heard one bad suggestion.

       9                       (LAUGHTER)

      10              DR. BUCHAN:  But I don't know if we can

      11   do it all.

      12              I would like Dr. Michaels to say what

      13   is the number one issue, as far as he is

      14   concerned, regarding the Gulf oil spill.

      15              I've put you on the spot.  I know it's

      16   very broad.

      17              But, you know, I would like to know

      18   what you would really like us to look into.

      19              DR. MICHAELS:  Well, I think there are

      20   two different tracks, and I think you're on both

      21   of them.

      22              The one we really do need help is

                                                         184

       1   ensuring that our expectations of BP are correct

       2   in terms of worker protection, and that includes

       3   work hours, heat, respiratory protection,

       4   et cetera.

       5              But the other issue, which I think

       6   you're getting to, which is the more interesting

       7   one, is to think more boldly.

       8              And that's the role of an advisory

       9   committee, not to -- you know, to challenge us to

      10   do something differently, and to use this as an

      11   opportunity to break out of our normal patterns

      12   and say, what can we do to really advance worker

      13   health?

      14              And I think you're getting to that as

      15   well, and I'm very pleased that you're saying,

      16   here are some things.  The way you think about

      17   this isn't the way you normally would think about

      18   it.

      19              So, don't just to try to do more of the

      20   same endeavor, but actually do things differently

      21   in a totally different way.

      22              And I really hope you do that.  I'd

                                                         185

       1   like us to think boldly about our

       2   responsibilities, and I appreciate that.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well-dodged.

       4              UNKNOWN VOICE:  Thank you.

       5                       (LAUGHTER)

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Denise.

       7              But useful, nonetheless.

       8              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Hi.  Denise

       9   Pouget, Alexandria Fire.

      10              Forgive me for getting in the weeds,

      11   but I'm used to getting in the weeds managing

      12   firefighters.

      13              One of the things that we might be

      14   doing, and I'd just like to mention because I

      15   haven't heard it, one of the things that we battle

      16   with every day when we deal with hazardous

      17   materials incidents, house fires, building fires

      18   and so forth, is the appropriate rehabilitation as

      19   well of individuals, and putting limitations on

      20   those individuals.  It becomes very hard to

      21   manage.

      22              So we have a rehab procedure where -- I

                                                         186

       1   heard us talk about work hours.  But would it be

       2   beneficial to also specifically say that this is

       3   our rehabilitation time, and this is what we will

       4   expect during our rehabilitation time?

       5              I mean, we go as far as to make sure

       6   that -- in just a short eight to ten years ago, we

       7   used to give them, for rehab, coffee, they'd smoke

       8   cigarettes, sodas, chocolate bars, all the things

       9   you shouldn't do.

      10                       (LAUGHTER)

      11              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  But now we

      12   have granola bars, fruit, water, things like that,

      13   and we make sure that their blood pressure is

      14   within normal limits and things like that before

      15   we put a bottle on them and put them back in.

      16              I'm not suggesting exactly that.  I'm

      17   just saying, if we're looking at also exploring

      18   the work hours, I think the rehabilitation becomes

      19   a huge part of it.  Because I know we, in studying

      20   our line of duty dats, have determined a lot to

      21   have been from a lack of that.  So I just put that

      22   out there as a suggestion as one of the things we

                                                         187

       1   could explore more for an immediate...

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  We've had a number of

       3   hands up, I know.

       4              Bill.

       5              Who else wanted to say something?

       6   There should be more after that.

       7              Bill Borwegen.

       8              MR. BORWEGEN:  A question and a

       9   comment.  So, President Obama talked about sending

      10   a bill to BP, I guess retrospective for things

      11   that were already done.

      12              Did that include all of the work of

      13   OSHA, your salaries and fringe benefits for all

      14   your employees?

      15              DR. MICHAELS:  It's our understanding

      16   that OSHA will be reimbursed for the costs that

      17   we're incurring, including tremendous overtime

      18   costs of our OSHA staff down there.

      19              It's worth noting, though, that there's

      20   an opportunity cost to all of this.  We are not --

      21   you know, we've taken, you know, our limited human

      22   resources out of, at this point, Region 6 and

                                                         188

       1   Region 4, and we will be taking them from our Salt

       2   Lake City sanctuary and elsewhere around the

       3   country.

       4              So we're not doing all the other

       5   inspections we should be doing.  We're cutting

       6   back on our refund reinspections.  We're cutting

       7   back on other inspections.  And that cost cannot

       8   be reimbursed.  And that's just -- you know, those

       9   are inspections that are not being done.

      10              And so we have to think about that as

      11   well, and what that means.

      12              MR. BORWEGEN:  Okay.  So that was my

      13   question.

      14              And then my comment, I kind of

      15   summarized, I think, where we're at, and maybe

      16   expand upon it.

      17              But it sounds like what we're talking

      18   about is we need to prospectively estimate how

      19   much money we need for this evaluation, if

      20   we're -- it's kind of almost like a white paper of

      21   how we want to respond in a comprehensive manner,

      22   and then we need a budget and a work plan.

                                                         189

       1              We need to go tell BP that this is how

       2   much money we need for the next month, for the

       3   next six months, for the next year, for the next

       4   five years, to the degree that's feasible.

       5              And these are all the components that

       6   we, you know -- I mean, it sounds like that's what

       7   we're talking about.

       8              And I think OSHA would probably need to

       9   help us prospectively generate a budget and a work

      10   plan of how we respond, so that we get the money

      11   up front, so we can start bringing in these

      12   experts and everyone else, above and beyond just

      13   OSHA staff, in order to put together a

      14   comprehensive plan.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Who is the "we" that

      16   you're referring to?

      17                       (LAUGHTER)

      18              MR. BORWEGEN:  Well, I think it's a

      19   combination of the work group and OSHA staff

      20   thinking about, you know, what this -- again, what

      21   this evaluation piece would look like, and what

      22   the work tasks are.

                                                         190

       1              The focus groups of the workers

       2   bringing in the experts, you know --

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I can understand the

       4   committee making a recommendation to OSHA and

       5   NIOSH to do an assessment of resource needs, and

       6   then to act on that assessment.

       7              I'm not sure that we can go very far

       8   down the path of turning this subcommittee into an

       9   active operational group.

      10                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I know you're not

      12   really intending that, but we need to establish

      13   some clear boundaries here.

      14              MR. BORWEGEN:  Maybe I'm using the

      15   wrong terminology, but, you know, I think the

      16   concept is that to the degree we can do things in

      17   a proactive way, where we can anticipate how much

      18   money we're going to need and get the money up

      19   front, I think that's -- you know, that --

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That point is well

      21   taken.

      22              MS. SHORTALL:  The key --

                                                         191

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I --

       2              MS. SHORTALL:  I'd like to mention,

       3   probably the key term in this whole thing is

       4   NACOSH is an advisory committee.  It is limited to

       5   providing advice and recommendations of things the

       6   agency can do.  It is not authorized, chartered,

       7   to do independent action on its own.

       8              And, likewise, the word "advisory" has

       9   a secondary meaning, and that is it's not the

      10   national required of OSHA committee.

      11              OSHA can decide to act on your

      12   recommendations; and within their discretion could

      13   decide, no, we're not going to do that.

      14              So the limit you have is telling the

      15   agency what you would like the agency to do.

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, I know that

      17   Bill fully understands that.

      18              The only reason I raise this at all is

      19   to make sure that, as we move ahead, that we're

      20   careful with our use of language when we finally

      21   make recommendations.  And that's just a matter of

      22   attending to the detail later.

                                                         192

       1              Linda Rae?

       2              DR. MURRAY:  So, one of the challenges,

       3   when you're on an advisory committee, is to give

       4   advice that actually has meaning.  So, let me

       5   comment and make a suggestion in terms of formal

       6   recommendations that are made.

       7              I've heard two kinds of suggestions and

       8   they're often linked.

       9              So, Michael's last suggestion, which

      10   talked about saying something, without saying,

      11   "Here's an operational work shift that we

      12   recommend," but clearly saying something based on

      13   evidence and our expertise that says the present

      14   situation is too long.

      15              And then he suggested the emergency

      16   temporary standards.

      17              Actually, other people have suggested

      18   something specific and then how to fund it.

      19              It seems to me that at the end of this

      20   meeting we may have two kinds of recommendations:

      21   One, that are more narrowly directed at what NIOSH

      22   and OSHA routinely do; and the second, which

                                                         193

       1   reflects the situation we're in.

       2              I must say, I actually don't know if

       3   the President has officially declared a public

       4   health emergency.  He should, but we'll leave that

       5   alone.

       6              I'm not officially advising -- I'm not

       7   officially advising -- he does work for me, but --

       8                       (LAUGHTER)

       9              DR. MURRAY:  I can't, in this meeting,

      10   officially advise him, I guess.

      11              But let me suggest this:  That the

      12   other set of recommendation that we're toying

      13   with, in terms of doing things differently than we

      14   normally do, making BP pay for this, you know,

      15   perhaps having an attitude that we need to have

      16   emergency standards, temporary standards, I think

      17   reflects an underlying consensus that we haven't

      18   made explicit.  But let me explicitly make it and

      19   then allow people to disagree with it.

      20              I would suggest to you that we are

      21   facing a huge public health emergency and

      22   disaster, both in the environmental world, for

                                                         194

       1   workers and communities; and that the response,

       2   the appropriate professional response for health

       3   and safety professionals must recognize that

       4   emergency situation.

       5              And so in that spirit, there's a set of

       6   recommendations, or tools, that could be used in

       7   this time period that may not be limited to OSHA

       8   and NIOSH; for example, having British Petroleum

       9   pay for not only HHEs, but longer ranged studies.

      10              That doesn't say that OSHA and NIOSH

      11   are going to do all those studies.  In fact, they

      12   can't, and they probably shouldn't.

      13              The concept that the joint incident

      14   command ought to consider emergency temporary

      15   standards -- forget about three miles, one mile,

      16   you know, that there ought to be an approach like

      17   that in emergency temporary standards, about a

      18   whole range of things, which have to do with

      19   drinking water, how you would -- you know, that

      20   would include the FDA, et cetera.

      21              The concept that we don't -- the

      22   government at all levels does not possess the

                                                         195

       1   appropriate expertise for this particular

       2   emergency, which means British Petroleum needs to

       3   pay for experts outside of government to come in,

       4   at the behest of, in our case, OSHA and NIOSH, but

       5   the government, at large, you know, whatever these

       6   people are called, underwater engineers -- I don't

       7   even know what their job titles are, but, you

       8   know, whatever those expertise are that exists in

       9   other, you know, in private industry and other

      10   places.

      11              So I want to encourage us in our lunch

      12   break to think about our recommendations in those

      13   two ways:  One is specific things that we're very

      14   comfortable with that we talked about.  But the

      15   other is, tools to use, mechanisms to use in this

      16   emergency situation, which goes to some of these

      17   broader issues.

      18              And, you know, if the emergency

      19   command, or EPA, or the White House, or somebody

      20   else thought those recommendations were useful and

      21   wanted to implement them, great.  But, in any

      22   case, NIOSH and OSHA could still that have same

                                                         196

       1   kind of approach in terms of implementing those.

       2              So, as we think about it, if we could

       3   sort of highlight some of those broader tools for

       4   an emergency, because that's actually what we're

       5   in, and I think that's what we -- we have not

       6   effectively seen a response that reflects that

       7   emergency.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes, Joe.

       9              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.

      10              When you were -- Dr. Michaels, when you

      11   were talking about diverting resources to the

      12   Gulf, the thought crossed my mind that I think it

      13   would be in your best interests, or OSHA's best

      14   interests to catalog all of that work that's not

      15   getting done.

      16              And at some point, even if you cannot

      17   direct bill BP, at some point they may be

      18   interested in sponsoring, say, a process safety

      19   effort, or something that is in line with your

      20   mission in these special effort areas that relates

      21   to the disaster.

      22              And it might create an opportunity to

                                                         197

       1   get back some of that work that you're losing

       2   because you're diverting resources to the Gulf.

       3              DR. MICHAELS:  Well, that's an

       4   interesting suggestion.  You know, we have a long

       5   relationship with BP around process safety

       6   management issues.  So perhaps we can return to

       7   that at some later point.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes, Susan.

       9              MS. RANDOLPH:  Yes.  I want to take off

      10   a little bit where Linda was talking.  And this

      11   really brings up who's really population address.

      12   And we've talked about workers, we've talked about

      13   volunteers, we've talked about other community.

      14              And it seems to fit that all workers,

      15   which includes volunteers, some of those are

      16   covered under OSHA, some of those are not covered

      17   by OSHA, but somehow their health and safety needs

      18   to be protected.

      19              You know, if there's some way to go

      20   across jurisdictions to enable that to happen,

      21   whether it's Coast Guard, or this or that, to

      22   enable that to happen, whether that deals with

                                                         198

       1   education, with exposures, with surveillance, you

       2   know, of those personal protective equipment,

       3   somehow that all of those people can be protected.

       4   I don't know.  And that's a little bit different,

       5   that's beyond this OSHA.  And I don't know how you

       6   can coordinate that across agencies.

       7              But, to me, that's something that

       8   really has to happen.  And if there's a way that

       9   we can, you know, take that forward, I would like

      10   to see that.

      11              DR. MICHAELS:  I should just say for

      12   the record, I think there's a great effort to do

      13   that.  I mean, we presented here really just what

      14   OSHA and NIOSH are doing, but, in fact, this is a

      15   broad interagency coordinated effort.

      16              The first weekend of the spill, I went

      17   down there on a Sunday night.  Over the weekend,

      18   we coordinated with NIOSH, with National Institute

      19   for Environmental Health Sciences, and EPA.  And

      20   we arrived together at the joint -- at the

      21   incident control center at Robert, and then to

      22   Houma together, as four public health agencies

                                                         199

       1   working together.  And we've been working very

       2   closely together ever since.

       3              So, in fact, that's going on, though,

       4   obviously, any recommendation that you give us to

       5   continue that, to strengthen it, or whatever,

       6   would certainly be welcome, but ...

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me just talk for

       8   a minute about what we're going to do for the rest

       9   of the day.

      10              If we are to make some recommendations

      11   to OSHA and NIOSH, and if we're going to set up a

      12   longer term work group, we have to do that by the

      13   end of the day, in public session.

      14              And so we have to balance two things

      15   here:  One is getting that work done, but at the

      16   same time, not having reached the end of the day,

      17   realizing that the only thing we've talked about

      18   is oil spill.

      19              So what I'm going to propose is that

      20   during lunch we make some assignments to prepare

      21   us to make those -- to reach those details by the

      22   end of the day.

                                                         200

       1              But that immediately after lunch, we

       2   have a discussion with Dr. Michaels, if you're,

       3   hopefully, still able to be here.  If not, then

       4   with other OSHA representatives have some

       5   discussion about other issues that OSHA feels are

       6   important for us to address.

       7              But while we need to do that, we're not

       8   going to be able to spend a lot of time on it.  We

       9   might be able to identify a couple other important

      10   areas where we want to establish other work

      11   groups.  Maybe, maybe not.

      12              But then we'll interrupt that

      13   discussion to give ourselves enough time to

      14   formulate the recommendations and to set up the

      15   work group.

      16              So, I may get tougher during the

      17   afternoon about cutting off comments and moving us

      18   along, because we've got to do that.

      19              Does that make sense to everybody?

      20              MR. BORWEGEN:  So are we going to cover

      21   the items that are listed at 10:15, for later this

      22   afternoon?  Is that the concept?

                                                         201

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  At least some of

       2   them.  I think that these are the items that OSHA

       3   wanted on the agenda, and I think the committee is

       4   willing to have discussion about any or all of

       5   them, as long as we don't run out of time.

       6              Okay.  We've got 15 minutes before

       7   lunch.  Let's take advantage of that time and come

       8   back to this question about a work group, and I'd

       9   like to entertain suggestions about what the

      10   charge to that work group should be.

      11              And then we'll assign somebody during

      12   lunch to actually write down the words in more

      13   detail.

      14              What would be the charge to such a work

      15   group?

      16              DR. BUCHAN:  We've got about thirty

      17   charges on the table.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, it may be a

      19   matter of taking several of them off.

      20              DR. BUCHAN:  Yeah.

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Michael, as I --

      22                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

                                                         202