[Federal Register Volume 86, Number 214 (Tuesday, November 9, 2021)]
[Notices]
[Pages 62234-62235]
[FR Doc No: 2021-24428]

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SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION

[SEC File No. 270-517, OMB Control No. 3235-0575]

Proposed Collection; Comment Request

Upon Written Request, Copies Available From: Securities and Exchange
Commission, Office of FOIA Services, 100 F Street NE, Washington, DC
20549-2736

Extension:
    Regulation AC

    Notice is hereby given that pursuant to the Paperwork Reduction Act
of 1995 (``PRA'') (44 U.S.C. 3501 et seq.), the Securities and Exchange
Commission (``Commission'') is soliciting comments on the existing
collection of information provided for in Regulation Analyst
Certification (``Regulation AC'') (17 CFR 242.500-505, under the
Securities Exchange Act of 1934 (15 U.S.C. 78a et seq.)). The
Commission plans to submit this existing collection of information to
the Office of Management and Budget (``OMB'') for extension and
approval.
    Regulation AC requires that research reports published, circulated,
or provided by a broker or dealer or covered person contain a statement
attesting that the views expressed in each research report accurately
reflect the analyst's personal views and whether or not the research
analyst received or will receive any compensation in connection with
the views or recommendations expressed in the research report.
Regulation AC also requires broker-dealers to, on a quarterly basis,
make, keep, and maintain records of research analyst statements
regarding whether the views expressed in public appearances accurately
reflected the analyst's personal views, and whether any part of the
analyst's compensation is related to the specific recommendations or
views expressed in the public appearance. Regulation AC also requires
that research prepared by foreign persons be presented to U.S. persons
pursuant to Securities Exchange Act Rule 15a-6 and that broker-dealers
notify associated persons if they would be covered by the regulation.
Regulation AC excludes the news media from its coverage.
    The Commission estimates that Regulation AC imposes an aggregate
annual time burden of approximately 40,806 hours. The Commission
estimates that the total annual internal cost of compliance for the
40,806 hours is approximately $20,923,582.
    Written comments are invited on: (a) Whether the proposed
collection of

information is necessary for the proper performance of the functions of
the Commission, including whether the information shall have practical
utility; (b) the accuracy of the Commission's estimates of the burden
of the proposed collection of information; (c) ways to enhance the
quality, utility, and clarity of the information collected; and (d)
ways to minimize the burden of the collection of information on
respondents, including through the use of automated collection
techniques or other forms of information technology. Consideration will
be given to comments and suggestions submitted in writing within 60
days of this publication.
    An agency may not conduct or sponsor, and a person is not required
to respond to, a collection of information under the PRA unless it
displays a currently valid OMB control number.
    Please direct your written comments to: David Bottom, Director/
Chief Information Officer, Securities and Exchange Commission, c/o John
R. Pezzullo, 100 F Street NE, Washington, DC 20549, or send an email
to: [email protected].

    Dated: November 3, 2021.
J. Matthew DeLesDernier,
Assistant Secretary.
[FR Doc. 2021-24428 Filed 11-8-21; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 8011-01-P


[Federal Register Volume 86, Number 236 (Monday, December 13, 2021)]
[Notices]
[Pages 70849-70850]
[FR Doc No: 2021-26893]

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DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

Food and Drug Administration

[Docket No. FDA-2021-D-0861]

Cover Letter Attachments for Controlled Correspondences and
Abbreviated New Drug Application Submissions; Draft Guidance for
Industry; Availability

AGENCY: Food and Drug Administration, HHS.

ACTION: Notice of availability.

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SUMMARY: The Food and Drug Administration (FDA or Agency) is announcing
the availability of a draft guidance for industry entitled ``Cover
Letter Attachments for Controlled Correspondences and Abbreviated New
Drug Application Submissions.'' This guidance is intended to assist
prospective applicants, applicants, and holders of abbreviated new drug
applications (ANDAs) with optional attachments that can be used when
preparing cover letters that accompany controlled correspondence to the
Office of Generic Drugs (OGD), as well as original ANDAs, amendments to
ANDAs, and supplements to approved ANDAs submitted to FDA.

DATES: Submit either electronic or written comments on the draft
guidance by February 11, 2022 to ensure that the Agency considers your
comment on this draft guidance before it begins work on the final
version of the guidance.

ADDRESSES: You may submit comments on any guidance at any time as
follows:

Electronic Submissions

    Submit electronic comments in the following way:
     Federal eRulemaking Portal: https://www.regulations.gov.
Follow the instructions for submitting comments. Comments submitted
electronically, including attachments, to https://www.regulations.gov
will be posted to the docket unchanged. Because your comment will be
made public, you are solely responsible for ensuring that your comment
does not include any confidential information that you or a third party
may not wish to be posted, such as medical information, your or anyone
else's Social Security number, or confidential business information,
such as a manufacturing process. Please note that if you include your
name, contact information, or other information that identifies you in
the body of your comments, that information will be posted on https://www.regulations.gov.
     If you want to submit a comment with confidential
information that you do not wish to be made available to the public,
submit the comment as a written/paper submission and in the manner
detailed (see ``Written/Paper Submissions'' and ``Instructions'').

Written/Paper Submissions

    Submit written/paper submissions as follows:
     Mail/Hand delivery/Courier (for written/paper
submissions): Dockets Management Staff (HFA-305), Food and Drug
Administration, 5630 Fishers Lane, Rm. 1061, Rockville, MD 20852.
     For written/paper comments submitted to the Dockets
Management Staff, FDA will post your comment, as well as any
attachments, except for information submitted, marked and identified,
as confidential, if submitted as detailed in ``Instructions.''
    Instructions: All submissions received must include the Docket No.
FDA-2021-D-0861 for ``Cover Letter Attachments for Controlled
Correspondences and ANDA Submissions.'' Received comments will be
placed in the docket and, except for those submitted as ``Confidential
Submissions,'' publicly viewable at https://www.regulations.gov or at
the Dockets Management Staff between 9 a.m. and 4 p.m., Monday through
Friday,<PHONE_NUMBER>.
     Confidential Submissions--To submit a comment with
confidential information that you do not wish to be made publicly
available, submit your comments only as a written/paper submission. You
should submit two copies total. One copy will include the information
you claim to be confidential with a heading or cover note that states
``THIS DOCUMENT CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION.'' The Agency will
review this copy, including the claimed confidential information, in
its consideration of comments. The second copy, which will have the
claimed confidential information redacted/blacked out, will be
available for public viewing and posted on https://www.regulations.gov.
Submit both copies to the Dockets Management Staff. If you do not wish
your name and contact information to be made publicly available, you
can provide this information on the cover sheet and not in the body of
your comments and you must identify this information as
``confidential.'' Any information marked as ``confidential'' will not
be disclosed except in accordance with 21 CFR 10.20 and other
applicable disclosure law. For more information about FDA's posting of
comments to public dockets, see 80 FR 56469, September 18, 2015, or
access the information at: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2015-09-18/pdf/2015-23389.pdf.
    Docket: For access to the docket to read background documents or
the electronic and written/paper comments received, go to https://www.regulations.gov and insert the docket number, found in brackets in
the heading of this document, into the ``Search'' box and follow the
prompts and/or go to the Dockets Management Staff, 5630 Fishers Lane,
Rm. 1061, Rockville, MD 20852,<PHONE_NUMBER>.
    You may submit comments on any guidance at any time (see 21 CFR
10.115(g)(5)).
    Submit written requests for single copies of the draft guidance to
the Division of Drug Information, Center for Drug Evaluation and
Research, Food and Drug Administration, 10001 New Hampshire Ave.,
Hillandale Building, 4th Floor, Silver Spring, MD 20993-0002. Send one
self-addressed adhesive label to assist that office in processing your
requests. See the SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION section for electronic
access to the draft guidance document.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Nicole Park, Office of Generic Drugs,
Center for Drug Evaluation and Research, Food and Drug Administration,
10903 New Hampshire Ave., Rm. 1725, Silver Spring, MD 20993-0002, 240-
402-7764, [email protected].

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:

I. Background

    FDA is announcing the availability of a draft guidance for industry
entitled ``Cover Letter Attachments for Controlled Correspondences and
ANDA Submissions.'' This guidance is intended to assist prospective
applicants, applicants, and holders of ANDAs with optional attachments
that can be used when preparing cover letters that accompany controlled
correspondence to OGD, as well as original ANDAs, amendments to ANDAs,
and supplements to approved ANDAs submitted to FDA.
    A cover letter is generally included with controlled correspondence
to OGD and submissions to an ANDA file. While a cover letter is not
required content for an ANDA, the cover letter is a part of the
electronic common technical

document (eCTD) hierarchy and is included in Module 1 of an ANDA
submission.
    The cover letter provides an overview of the submission and helps
FDA ensure that the submission is properly triaged and assigned to the
appropriate assessors. In an effort to ensure that submissions are
effectively managed by FDA and acted upon within the performance review
goal dates set by the Generic Drug User Fee Amendments, FDA has
developed cover letter attachments to accompany, not replace,
applicants' cover letters for common submissions, including controlled
correspondence, original ANDAs and amendments to ANDAs, as well as
supplements to approved ANDAs. These cover letter attachments have been
designed as a checklist to reflect common types of information
applicants are expected to address in their cover letters. The
attachments are intended both to serve as a useful guide to help
applicants prepare their cover letters, and to assist FDA in the triage
and management of submissions.
    This draft guidance is being issued consistent with FDA's good
guidance practices regulation (21 CFR 10.115). The draft guidance, when
finalized, will represent the current thinking of FDA on ``Cover Letter
Attachments for Controlled Correspondences and ANDA Submissions.'' It
does not establish any rights for any person and is not binding on FDA
or the public. You can use an alternative approach if it satisfies the
requirements of the applicable statutes and regulations.

II. Paperwork Reduction Act of 1995

    While this guidance contains no collection of information, it does
refer to previously approved FDA collections of information. Therefore,
clearance by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) under the
Paperwork Reduction Act of 1995 (PRA) (44 U.S.C. 3501-3521) is not
required for this guidance. The previously approved collections of
information are subject to review by OMB under the PRA. The collections
of information in 21 CFR part 314 (including subpart C) for to the
content and format of ANDAs, including original ANDAs, amendments to
ANDAs, and supplements to approved ANDAs, submitted by applicants and
approved by FDA have been approved under OMB control number 0910-0001.
The collections of information for Form FDA 356h (NDA and ANDA cover
letter) have been approved under OMB control number 0910-0338.
    Applicants submit to FDA controlled correspondence along with cover
letters related to generic drug development and FDA approval. Such
submissions have been approved under OMB control number 0910-0797. The
collections of information in 21 CFR part 11 for electronic records and
electronic signatures have been approved under OMB control number 0910-
0303. The collections of information in 21 CFR part 211 about the
manufacture of the drug have been approved under OMB control number
0910-0139.

III. Electronic Access

    Persons with access to the internet may obtain the draft guidance
at https://www.fda.gov/drugs/guidance-compliance-regulatory-information/guidances-drugs, https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents, or https://www.regulations.gov.

    Dated: December 6, 2021.
Lauren K. Roth,
Associate Commissioner for Policy.
[FR Doc. 2021-26893 Filed 12-10-21; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 4164-01-P


[Federal Register Volume 83, Number 123 (Tuesday, June 26, 2018)]
[Notices]
[Page 29781]
[FR Doc No: 2018-13706]

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DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

Federal Energy Regulatory Commission

[Docket No. IN18-7-000]

Footprint Power LLC; Footprint Power Salem Harbor Operations LLC;
Notice of Designation of Commission Staff as Non-Decisional

    With respect to an order issued by the Commission in the above-
captioned docket,\1\ with the exceptions noted below, the staff of the
Office of Enforcement are designated as non-decisional in deliberations
by the Commission in this docket. Accordingly, pursuant to 18 CFR
385.2202 (2017), they will not serve as advisors to the Commission or
take part in the Commission's review of any offer of settlement.
Likewise, as non-decisional staff, pursuant to 18 CFR 385.2201 (2017),
they are prohibited from communicating with advisory staff concerning
any deliberations in this docket.
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    \1\ Footprint Power LLC, et al., 163 FERC ] 61,198 (2018).
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    Exceptions to this designation as non-decisional are:

Jeremy Medovoy
Catherine Collins
Katherine Walsh
Mark Nagle
Benjamin Jarrett
John Karp
Alfred Jasins

    Dated: June 20, 2018.
Kimberly D. Bose,
Secretary.
[FR Doc. 2018-13706 Filed 6-25-18; 8:45 am]
 BILLING CODE 6717-01-P


[Federal Register Volume 83, Number 90 (Wednesday, May 9, 2018)]
[Notices]
[Page 21290]
[FR Doc No: 2018-09849]

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DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

Federal Energy Regulatory Commission

Combined Notice of Filings #2

    Take notice that the Commission received the following electric
rate filings:

    Docket Numbers: ER10-2641-031; ER10-1874-007; ER10-2663-032; ER10-
2881-032; ER10-2882-034; ER10-2883-032; ER10-2884-032; ER10-2885-032;
ER16-2509-003; ER17-2400-003; ER17-2401-003; ER17-2403-003; ER17-2404-
003.
    Applicants: Oleander Power Project, Limited Partnership, Southern
Company--Florida LLC, Mankato Energy Center, LLC, Alabama Power
Company, Southern Power Company, Mississippi Power Company, Georgia
Power Company, Gulf Power Company, Rutherford Farm, LLC, SP Butler
Solar, LLC, SP Decatur Parkway Solar, LLC, SP Pawpaw Solar, LLC, SP
Sandhills Solar, LLC.
    Description: Notification of Change in Status of Oleander Power
Project, Limited Partnership, et al.
    Filed Date: 5/3/18.
    Accession Number: 20180503-5091.
    Comments Due: 5 p.m. ET 5/24/18.

    Docket Numbers: ER18-1464-002.
    Applicants: Midcontinent Independent System Operator, Inc.
    Description: Tariff Amendment: 2018-05-03_2nd Amendment to Sub-
Regional Power Balance Constraints filing to be effective 6/27/2018.
    Filed Date: 5/3/18.
    Accession Number: 20180503-5111.
    Comments Due: 5 p.m. ET 5/24/18.

    Docket Numbers: ER18-1482-001.
    Applicants: Pacific Gas and Electric Company.
    Description: Tariff Amendment: Errata to Q1 2018 Quarterly Filing
of City and County of San Francisco's WDT SA to be effective 3/31/2018.
    Filed Date: 5/3/18.
    Accession Number: 20180503-5053.
    Comments Due: 5 p.m. ET 5/24/18.

    Docket Numbers: ER18-1507-000.
    Applicants: PJM Interconnection, L.L.C.
    Description: Sec.  205(d) Rate Filing: First Revised ISA, SA No.
2013, Queue No. AC2-018 to be effective 4/11/2018.
    Filed Date: 5/2/18.
    Accession Number: 20180502-5186.
    Comments Due: 5 p.m. ET 5/23/18.

    Docket Numbers: ER18-1514-000.
    Applicants: Southern California Edison Company.
    Description: Sec.  205(d) Rate Filing: GIA & DSA Goleta Energy
Center Project SA Nos. 1004-1005 to be effective 5/4/2018.
    Filed Date: 5/3/18.
    Accession Number: 20180503-5050.
    Comments Due: 5 p.m. ET 5/24/18.

    The filings are accessible in the Commission's eLibrary system by
clicking on the links or querying the docket number.
    Any person desiring to intervene or protest in any of the above
proceedings must file in accordance with Rules 211 and 214 of the
Commission's Regulations (18 CFR 385.211 and 385.214) on or before 5:00
p.m. Eastern time on the specified comment date. Protests may be
considered, but intervention is necessary to become a party to the
proceeding.
    eFiling is encouraged. More detailed information relating to filing
requirements, interventions, protests, service, and qualifying
facilities filings can be found at: http://www.ferc.gov/docs-filing/efiling/filing-req.pdf. For other information, call<PHONE_NUMBER>
(toll free). For TTY, call<PHONE_NUMBER>.

    Dated: May 3, 2018.
Nathaniel J. Davis, Sr.,
Deputy Secretary.
[FR Doc. 2018-09849 Filed 5-8-18; 8:45 am]
 BILLING CODE 6717-01-P


adjustments and calibration checks), reason(s) why the CEMS was
inoperative and steps taken to prevent recurrence, and any CEMS repairs
or adjustments. The owner/operator of each unit shall also submit
results of any CEMS performance tests required by 40 CFR part 75.
    (3) When no excess emissions have occurred or the CEMS has not been
inoperative, repaired, or adjusted during the reporting period, such
information shall be stated in the quarterly reports required by
paragraphs (g)(1) and (2) of this section.
    (h) Notifications. (1) The owner/operator shall promptly submit
notification of commencement of construction of any equipment which is
being constructed to comply with the NOX emission limits in
paragraph (c) of this section.
    (2) The owner/operator shall promptly submit semi-annual progress
reports on construction of any such equipment.
    (3) The owner/operator shall promptly submit notification of
initial startup of any such equipment.
    (i) Equipment operation. At all times, the owner/operator shall
maintain each unit, including associated air pollution control
equipment, in a manner consistent with good air pollution control
practices for minimizing emissions.
    (j) Credible evidence. Nothing in this section shall preclude the
use, including the exclusive use, of any credible evidence or
information, relevant to whether a source would have been in compliance
with requirements of this section if the appropriate performance or
compliance test procedures or method had been performed.

[FR Doc. 2015-33108 Filed 1-13-16; 8:45 am]
 BILLING CODE 6560-50-P


[Federal Register: September 23, 2008 (Volume 73, Number 185)]
[Notices]
[Page 54796]
[DOCID:fr23se08-56]

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DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

Federal Energy Regulatory Commission

[Docket No. ER08-1282-001]

Pacific Gas and Electric Company; Notice of Filing

September 16, 2008.
    Take notice that on September 11, 2008, Pacific Gas and Electric
Company filed an errata to its July 21, 2008, Annual Adjustment to
Interruptible Transmission Service Rate for Sacramento Municipal
Utility District.
    Any person desiring to intervene or to protest this filing must
file in accordance with Rules 211 and 214 of the Commission's Rules of
Practice and Procedure (18 CFR 385.211, 385.214). Protests will be
considered by the Commission in determining the appropriate action to
be taken, but will not serve to make protestants parties to the
proceeding. Any person wishing to become a party must file a notice of
intervention or motion to intervene, as appropriate. Such notices,
motions, or protests must be filed on or before the comment date.
Anyone filing a motion to intervene or protest must serve a copy of
that document on the Applicant and all the parties in this proceeding.
    The Commission encourages electronic submission of protests and
interventions in lieu of paper using the ``eFiling'' link at http://
www.ferc.gov. Persons unable to file electronically should submit an
original and 14 copies of the protest or intervention to the Federal
Energy Regulatory Commission, 888 First Street, NE., Washington, DC
20426.
    This filing is accessible on-line at http://www.ferc.gov, using the
``eLibrary'' link and is available for review in the Commission's
Public Reference Room in Washington, DC. There is an ``eSubscription''
link on the Web site that enables subscribers to receive e-mail
notification when a document is added to a subscribed docket(s). For
assistance with any FERC Online service, please e-mail
<EMAIL_ADDRESS>or call<PHONE_NUMBER> (toll free). For
TTY, call<PHONE_NUMBER>.
    Comment Date: 5 p.m. Eastern Time on September 23, 2008.

Kimberly D. Bose,
Secretary.
[FR Doc. E8-22158 Filed 9-22-08; 8:45 am]

BILLING CODE 6717-01-P


0001 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY IN RE: EPA GENERAL FLYER 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 3 EPA MEETING 4 5 December 9, 2003 10: 00 a. m. 6 7 61 Forsyth Street Atlanta, Georgia 8 9 Natalie G. Studstill, CCR B 2294 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0002 1 APPEARANCES 2 . 3 Appearing on Behalf of 4 Environmental Protection Agency: 5 KIMBERLY PATRICK, ESQUIRE 6 Janette Brown, Director of Small Business 7 . 8 Also Present: 9 Rafael Santamaria, Mbe/ wbe Coordinator 10 . 11 Audience: 12 Harley Grant 13 Sandra Ellis 14 David D. Johnson 15 Sandy Hammer 16 Jerry Crane 17 Johnny Miles 18 George Williams 19 . 20 Also Present: 21 Scott Gregory, the National Center for American Indian 22 Enterprise Development 23 . 24 . 25 . 0003 1 EPA Meeting 2 December 9, 2003 3 MS. BROWN: This is Rafeal 4 Santamaria, who is our MBE/ WBE coordinator here 5 in Region 4, and should be your point of 6 contact as it pertains to or relates to grants 7 and opportunities with EPA. 8 We're here today to talk to you 9 about a proposed rule, and the impact that it 10 will have on the tribes and to get you the 11 information so that would can get feedback and 12 input from you as we go through a formal rule 13 making process. 14 The rule itself was issued in July 15 of this year, and it has been posted and 16 listed, and we have a copy of the federal 17 register, so if you want to get that before you 18 leave, you can get that. We'll talk to you 19 later about where you can find it on line, but 20 it talks about our program and some proposed 21 changes. 22 This is a formal hearing, so we have 23 a court reporter here. We need to make sure 24 that we speak very clearly, so that she can get 25 the information. When you have a question I 0004 1 will ask that you say who you are, and the 2 company or tribe or entity that you represent, 3 so that we'll know where the concerns are coming 4 from. 5 This is one of about 17 hearings 6 that we're having around the country. You might 7 be wondering well, why do I need a court 8 reporter here. After we have done this, and 9 some have had has many as 75, 85 people in 10 attendance, and it is difficult for us to 11 remember who said what, and so by using a court 12 reporter, and because it is a formal hearing, we 13 will have this for the record, as we get the 14 message out about the program. 15 We also have working with us the 16 National Center under contract to help us to put 17 on the tribal conferences, so they have been 18 with us throughout the Indian country having and 19 putting on these meetings. 20 Again, I say welcome. And we have 21 Scott Gregory. We have just been sending e mails 22 back and forth, and I have finally got a chance 23 to meet him in person, but Scott Gregory has 24 been very active on and under the contract 25 working with Kimberly and my staff to put these 0005 1 meetings on. 2 I think we do have a survey sheet 3 that you can fill out at the end of meeting 4 and give us feedback on what you thought, 5 logistics, of course, if that is an issue, be 6 sure to make sure that known to us. 7 This is  in our travels, we're 8 almost finished. The rule is scheduled to be 9 closed, the final comment period is January 20, 10 and I think we have three to four more meetings 11 to go, so this is near the end of the tour, 12 which is a good thing because we have been 13 living out of our suitcases since July, and it 14 has been difficult, but we do what we have to 15 do. 16 One of the things I like to do 17 first is get a feel for who you are and who 18 you're representing. This is a small enough 19 setting that I think we can do that. We have 20 been talking about breakfast or food, but it 21 would help me to know who you are and the 22 entity you represent. 23 MR. GRANT: My name is Harley Grant, 24 and I'm from Chattanooga, Tennessee. I'm a 25 member of the Eastern Band of Cherokees out of 0006 1 North Carolina. I own a private business. I'm 2 a practicing metallurgist. We do all types of 3 heat treating that are from six inches to 4 40 foot length up to hundred tons. We do media 5 blasting. We have EPA approved blast 6 facilities. We do all types of metal coatings 7 from Cling Arc all the way up to HVOL, high 8 velocity thermosprays. We spray all types of 9 metals, and we do full failure analysis. 10 MS. ELLIS: I'm Sandra Ellis out of 11 Jackson, Tennessee and my company name is 12 Separate Winds, and I do fire and rescue 13 equipment for local fire departments and 14 businesses who need fire extinguishers. I'm a 15 member of the Muscogee Creek Nation out of 16 Oklahoma. I get bragging rights. My dad is 17 going to become chief in January of the Muscogee 18 Creek Nation. 19 MR. MILES: I'm Johnny Miles. I'm 20 from, here in Georgia, Cartersville, Georgia. I 21 own Mechanical Electric Associates. I'm a 22 certified Native American contractor for the 23 state of Georgia, a general contractor with 24 mainly industrial and government facilities. 25 MR. CRANE: I'm Jerry Crane, 0007 1 president of Alpha, Incorporated. I'm from 2 Anderson, South Carolina. We're a native owned 3 business. I'm a Choctaw, and we do custom 4 electronic systems and contract manufacturers. 5 MR. JOHNSON: I'm David Johnson, and 6 I'm a Tribal Judge for the MACHIS Lower Creek 7 Indian Tribe, New Brockton, Alabama, and we're 8 in the process of going through our 8 A 9 certification, as a tribe we have some members 10 of the tribes that are presently 8 A certified, 11 and we're going for tribal status down at New 12 Brockton, Alabama. 13 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm George Williams, 14 and I'm with UIDA Business Services. We are a 15 division of the National Center. The National 16 Center is in Mesa, Arizona. We're located here 17 in Marietta, Georgia at the Lockheed Martin 18 Facility. I encourage anybody who currently is 19 not working with us. My card is up here. 20 Please take one. 21 Like I said, we cover 13 different 22 states, including Wisconsin and Minnesota and 23 look forward to being of service. Thank you. 24 MR. GREGORY: Scott Gregory with the 25 National Center for American Indian Enterprise 0008 1 Development, a sister company to UIDA, and 2 basically we're nonprofit to assist American 3 Indian business and tribes. 4 MS. BROWN: As with we're going 5 through the presentation, if you have any 6 questions, I would ask that you use the mic, 7 and tell us again your name, so she can get 8 that on the record, who you represent, and we'll 9 go into the questions. 10 Feel free to ask any questions that 11 you may have. Because many of you are already 12 in business or associated with businesses, while 13 we're here to do the hearing, if you want us 14 to talk to you after the hearing about other 15 opportunities with EPA in terms of how to do 16 business with EPA, if you're not already a 17 contractor for us, we can do that. 18 Primarily, there are two ways to do 19 business, directly or indirectly, and we're here 20 to talk to you and hold this hearing on the 21 indirect portion of this program. Meaning, and I 22 always say to businesses, money is green. You 23 just need to know where to go to find it. 24 What we're saying at EPA is there 25 are two ways to do that. We give approximately 0009 1 $ 1.2 billion out in contracts annually directly, 2 but my grants budget in the agency, and when I 3 say mine, it's not my budget, but the agency's 4 budget is $ 4.2 billion annually, so if you 5 follow the dollars, this program we're having 6 the meeting on, this hearing on, has tremendous 7 opportunity quite possibly for business owners, 8 small, women owned businesses, et cetera. 9 As grant recipients they are 10 encouraged to utilize minority and women owned 11 businesses to the maximum extent possible, and 12 they do that  and let me say this. Under 13 the program they do not have to contract 14 directly. They have an option. If they get a 15 grant, and they decide that they need to go out 16 and buy something, that is when this program 17 kicks in. 18 If they go and buy something in four 19 categories, equipment, construction, services or 20 supplies our program kicks in. If, on the 21 other hand, a tribe receives a grant, and they 22 decide they have everything that they need to do 23 internally within their tribal government, then 24 they can choose to supplement salaries, and that 25 kind of thing, with the grant, and our program 0010 1 doesn't kick in, but the minute they go out and 2 buy something, in one of those four categories. 3 What were they? 4 MR. JOHNSON: Equipment, construction, 5 services, and supplies. 6 MS. BROWN: Very good. So our 7 program kicks in. So many of you are probably 8 familiar with the State DOT Highway Program. 9 EPA has a very small program, but it is 10 similar. A couple of years ago the State DOT 11 Highway Program went through a proposed ruling 12 and made changes to their program to come in 13 compliance with the Adarand decision, and that 14 is a formal decision that came from the supreme 15 court. 16 It's been out since 1995, and it 17 looked at what the Federal Government was 18 spending its money on and giving the decision 19 that came from the supreme court, a review was 20 done, and Kimberly can talk to you in more 21 detail about that case if need be that came out 22 of the State of Colorado where a nonminority 23 challenged how the State of Colorado was doing 24 their state contract, and it challenged a 25 minority citizen basically. 0011 1 And as a result of that it went all 2 the way up to the supreme court, and it changed 3 how here in the Federal government we will 4 operate, and we're the last agency to come in 5 line to go ahead and make changes. While we 6 have made some internal changes, we had to go 7 through a public hearing and a rule making, and 8 that is why we're here now. 9 The changes that we're going to talk 10 about is going to be the major elements of the 11 proposed rule and what the major changes are, 12 and how we see they may impact you all. We 13 need to hear from you. We need you to read 14 this. We need you to digest. We need 15 comments from you in terms of what you think it 16 will do for you, or if it will help you or 17 hurt you because here you get a chance, quite 18 frankly, to weigh in on public policy as it is 19 being made. 20 This is something we feel that is 21 very important, so we will go through the major 22 elements of the proposed rule and talk about 23 some of the changes and will spend a lot more 24 time in the area of the impact directly to the 25 tribal concerns as well. 0012 1 Any questions or comments? 2 Sir, you just came in, and it would 3 be good if you use the mic and tell us who you 4 are and an entity or tribe or company that you 5 represent. 6 MR. HAMMER: My name is Sandy 7 Hammer. I am with the MACHIS Lower Creek Tribe 8 of Alabama. I'm here as a representative of 9 the tribe. 10 MS. BROWN: Are you a grant 11 recipient as well from EPA? 12 MR. HAMMER: No, no. I also 13 represent Hammer LGC. We're a licensed general 14 contractor. We do DOD work, Department of 15 Defense work. That is all we do is military 16 work. 17 MS. BROWN: Do any of you all 18 receive grants currently from EPA? Nobody does. 19 This is good news for you then, so that you'll 20 know that the opportunity is very well. We do 21 give monies to the states, to tribes, to trust 22 territories and nonprofit organizations, colleges 23 and university, and again, if they go out and 24 buy anything, they decide they needed a pen, a 25 package of pens, our program kicks in because, 0013 1 again, anything in the area of equipment, 2 construction, services or supplies, our program 3 kicks in. 4 Kimberly, anything you want to add? 5 MS. PATRICK: I think it's important 6 that I make the general disclaimer due to past 7 experience. This is not consultation. We do 8 not consider it consultation. Yes, it is a 9 formal hearing. Yes, it is on the record, but 10 we know this is not the level of consultation 11 that would normally be used when dealing with 12 Indian tribes. I just want to put that out 13 there, so you understand we don't take this as 14 consultation. 15 MS. BROWN: It's been a big one on 16 the west coast. Hopefully, one of these 17 summaries, and the Federal Register Notice. We 18 have those available right over here if you 19 don't have them, and I'll be able to see to it 20 that you get one. We're just going to go 21 straight down this list here and talk about what 22 it is the proposed rule is proposing to do. 23 MS. PATRICK: Because I see, 24 listening to most of you all, and you 25 representing the business side of it, I think we 0014 1 should sort of concentrate heavily on the 2 certification portion. I think that's probably 3 the part that is going to effect you most. 4 MS. BROWN: First is the name change 5 report. Right now it's called the MBE/ WBE 6 program. The proposed rule is recommending that 7 we change it to EPA DBE program, and basically 8 we're doing that to be consistent with other the 9 federal agency state DOT DBE program, and so 10 that we're consistent across the board. 11 A DBE is defined as an entity owned 12 and/ or controlled by an individual who is 13 socially and economically disadvantaged under 14 either EPA's 8% or 10% statutes, as well as the 15 small business enterprise, a labor surplus area 16 or from the SBRA. This is a new change, and 17 it is not that technical, but we're looking to 18 be consistent with the other federal agencies. 19 Under the next major change, as 20 Kimberly indicated, is we're looking at 21 certification requirements. This is quite 22 different from what we've done before. Right 23 now as an entity or business you are 24 self certified. If you tell me you're a 25 minority, woman owned business, and you certify 0015 1 that you are, we accept that at face value and 2 nothing else. 3 With the proposed changes we're 4 looking at making sure that you have, been 5 certified by a couple of other entities first, 6 preferably before coming to us, and if all else 7 fails and you can't get those, then we would 8 have to certify you. 9 We will no longer be able to accept 10 the self certification. You need to have some 11 kind of documentation to show and to prove that 12 you are, in fact, a minority owned business. 13 There are a lot of reasons why we're 14 going to this change. Most of the other 15 programs require certification. SBA is the 16 standard that we use in determining the size and 17 those types of things, and so we're saying if 18 you have an SBA certification or something like 19 that, we will gladly accept that. We'll accept 20 a DOT certification, provided that you are a 21 citizen of the United States. Under the DOT 22 program, they also certify noncitizens. We're 23 going to be consistent with the SBA policy that 24 you have to be a citizen of the United States. 25 Anything else you want to add, 0016 1 Kimberly? 2 MS. PATRICK: In terms of the 3 certification part, the standards we're using are 4 pretty much the same as SBA standards, and let 5 me just add, so there is consistency with the 6 rest of the Federal Government. 7 The way the program would work is 8 that if you already have certification from SBA 9 or from DOT through the citizenship requirement, 10 or if you have a state or local certification 11 from an area where their program requirements 12 are the same as our requirement, we will accept 13 that certification as well. 14 The entire goal is to make sure we 15 are a not asking people to do the same thing 16 twice, so if you have a certification that is 17 good and valid, the program requirements meets 18 ours, we will accept that. Even if you're 19 tribe certified, because I know there are some 20 due. We will accept that certification as well 21 as or as long as standards are met. 22 In terms of the standards, it will 23 be 51 percent owned and/ or controlled. Where 24 we're unique is that and/ or part because SBA and 25 DOT required that it is owned and controlled. 0017 1 Well, EPA, our program is actually, currently 2 resides in two separate statutes, one is clean 3 air, one is under clean water. 4 One statute they have it as owned 5 and controlled, and the other one we have it 6 owned or controlled, and so because the statute, 7 that is going to go above our heads to change, 8 we can't go and reword the statute and to 9 change that, so we have to incorporate both of 10 those in our program, which makes us a little 11 bit unique matter. 12 So we know that as a matter of 13 first impression there are going to be group of 14 entities that we will have to certify, because 15 no one else will. 16 One of those groups is an entity 17 that is owned or controlled. Some of the other 18 groups we know we have to certify ourself, 19 women owned business, because currently DOT and 20 SBA do not certify women owned businesses. We 21 will. 22 Disabled American owned businesses, 23 private and voluntary organizations controlled by 24 individuals who are socially and economically 25 disadvantaged. Entities which are certified 0018 1 under the criteria which are inferences in the 2 EPA DBE program criteria, and the owned or 3 controlled, as I already mentioned. Those are 4 the five categories we know EPA will have to do 5 and certify. 6 For everyone else, we're hoping that 7 entities will go out and seek the SBA or DOT 8 certification. There is a reason behind that. 9 As a business owner, SBA certifications will 10 take you a whole lot further than having EPA 11 certification. 12 Our certification currently is only 13 good with the EPA. An SBA certification you 14 can take anywhere, pretty much. Right now DOT 15 and SBA have a memorandum understanding whereas 16 they will accept each others certification. We 17 do not have that with our programs. That is 18 probably because of the standards we have the 19 owned or  it just gets a little to fuzzy for 20 the other entities to accept our certification, 21 so we are encouraging businesses to seek the 22 certification because it is just a good business 23 thing to do, and we in turn will accept those. 24 The process is pretty simple. We 25 have a set of forms that of course is going 0019 1 through the process right now, and those are 2 getting all approved. They will go with this, 3 and the process is if you have a current 4 certification that is valid, you just have to 5 submit that to us, and we, in turn, will give 6 you an EPA certification. Really simple, really 7 quick. 8 If it's a situation where someone is 9 being certified by us originally, then of course 10 there is the paperwork to go into different 11 things. 12 The other thing I didn't mention is 13 the networth requirement. Currently our networth 14 requirement is $ 750,000. If your networth is 15 under $ 750,000, you are eligible to be certified 16 at EPA per our program. 17 That $ 750 K does not include your 18 interest in your personal resident or your 19 interest in the business. 20 MS. BROWN: Personal networth? 21 MS. PATRICK: Personal networth. 22 MS. BROWN: As you as the individual 23 who is the owner or who owns and controls the 24 business The question? Use the mic sir, and 25 tell me who you are. 0020 1 MR. JOHNSON: David Johnson, MACHIS 2 Lower Creek Indian Tribe of Alabama. You 3 mentioned that if the tribe was 8 A certified 4 that it could help the members with their 5 individual bids. What  on the reverse order 6 if we already have some members in our tribe 7 that are certified 8 A, and the tribe is going 8 to tribal certification, is the reverse going to 9 work? 10 MS. PATRICK: Well, probably not 11 because you're dealing with an SBA kind of 12 thing, so what SBA is going to be looking at 13 is probably the tribe itself. It's going to be 14 looking at two distinct things, so I couldn't 15 see where the individual certification of your 16 members would really aid, really weigh in very 17 much with helping with the tribe overall to 18 obtain certification. 19 MR. JOHNSON: What about 20 certification  21 MS. BROWN: EPA  22 MS. PATRICK: EPA, probably not. It 23 would probably be the same in terms of how that 24 would work. 25 MR. JOHNSON: Stand on its  0021 1 MS. BROWN: Any other comment or 2 questions? 3 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm Georgia Williams. 4 UIDA Business Services. I was just wondering 5 when you mentioned the clean air versus clean 6 water portions, and one was similar to the SBA 7 and that it had to be owned and operated, what, 8 which is  I mean, to me that is kind of 9 foreign to me because I just assumed that 10 everything federal all marched to the same beat, 11 and obviously that is not the case. 12 MS. PATRICK: It is actually, the 13 10% statute I believe is clean air  let me 14 make sure I've got that right. 15 MS. BROWN: 42.7601. 16 MS. PATRICK: Yeah, I believe that 17 is clean air. The 10% statute under the clean 18 air program is the one that is owned and 19 controlled. Under the clean water it would 20 start 8% statute is owned or controlled. 21 MS. BROWN: Can't tell you how we 22 did that  23 MS. PATRICK:  or why it was 24 written that way. 25 MS. BROWN: Why it was written that 0022 1 way. It's been that way to a long time. We 2 can't change that now. 3 MR. WILLIAMS: So I mean, you 4 actually have two different standards? 5 MS. BROWN: For basically the same 6 program. 7 MR. WILLIAMS: I mean  wow. 8 MS. PATRICK: That just means the 9 right hand didn't ask the left when he did it, 10 just went off and did their own thing. 11 MR. WILLIAMS: Amazing. See, but 12 what you're doing here now, EPA naturally when 13 you  so in other words, they couldn't on a 14 clean air, on a contract, and EPA contract for 15 a clean air work the person had to be  in 16 other words, now, with this ruling that you're 17 doing now, is that going to make everything 18 consistent on clean air and water or not? 19 MS. PATRICK: It won't make it 20 consistent because what happens because the 21 statute is written the way it is, EPA, EPA for 22 purposes of our program, we would not have a 23 choice, we would have to certify entities that 24 are owned or controlled, which makes us unique 25 from the rest of the Federal Government. 0023 1 In the instance where someone comes 2 in and they meet that owned or controlled 3 standard, when they're doing EPA work, we would 4 have to certify them if they met the rest of 5 the requirements. 6 MR. WILLIAMS: So in other words 7 upon, when this takes effect in January somebody 8 that previously, like say somebody that was 9 working on clean water work but they couldn't do 10 clean water work now would be able to bid on 11 either one of those? 12 MS. PATRICK: Well, not necessarily. 13 I know it is completely crazy. What it comes 14 down to, who we can count, sort of each 15 category in terms of how the dollars are being 16 spent. 17 That would mean let's say someone 18 was working, the owned or controlled clean 19 water. Let's say someone was working under a 20 situation where it was money coming under clean 21 water material. We're talking about the labor 22 contractor grants. 23 MS. BROWN: We're talking about 24 grants here. Not contracts, grant. 25 MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, big difference. 0024 1 MS. BROWN: Big difference, 2 equipment. 3 MS. PATRICK: This is not direct. 4 This is direct procurement at all. This is a 5 situation where the State of Georgia gets a 6 grant from EPA to put in a  7 MS. BROWN: Waste water treatment 8 plant. 9 MS. PATRICK: They have to go out 10 and hire contractors to build the plant. This 11 is what this program is about. So its money 12 is contract dollars that are spent under the 13 grant. Weight that we give to certain entities. 14 MR. WILLIAMS: So in other words, 15 this is being spent under a grant. It doesn't 16 stop, really fall under the traditional 17 procurement rules with the rest of the federal 18 Government. 19 MS. BROWN: We don't use the  any 20 of that under this. This is the indirect 21 portion. Remember earlier I said there is two 22 way to do business with EPA, either directly 23 through our contract, and that's that $ 1.2 24 billion, and we'll talk about that another time 25 later after the hearing, or indirectly that $ 4.2 0025 1 billion under our grant program, but money is 2 green, and you need to know where the money is 3 going, so you know how to go after it. 4 MR. WILLIAMS: I know you mentioned 5 the indirect and direct, but I just wasn't 6 thinking. I just automatically  7 MS. BROWN: It is not 8 A, not any 8 of that. 9 MS. PATRICK: I can see that is why 10 we found incredibly confusing if you think about 11 all the other procurement things that are 12 placed, why the differences would be huge, but 13 in the grant side of the world all the  14 MS. BROWN: Out the window. 15 MR. WILLIAMS: Out the window. 16 MR. HAMMER: So the grant money that 17 you are setting up or sets aside goes directly 18 only to the minority set asides that you 19 authorized. 20 MS. BROWN: No, the grant money goes 21 to grant recipients. Sometimes they, tribes, 22 trust territories, hospital, nonprofits, colleges 23 and universities. 24 MR. HAMMER: That is certified by 25 you? 0026 1 MS. BROWN: No. 2 MS. PATRICK: The initial grantee, 3 the person who is getting the grant. There is 4 no certification involved there. You apply for 5 the grant. You ask for the money. You get it. 6 Or if it's a congressional set aside type of 7 thing, then it is set aside for your  8 MS. BROWN: Pork barrels, all of 9 that good stuff. That is how that goes. You 10 can see how much is going out of EPA with $ 4.2 11 billion annually. 12 MS. PATRICK: Now, once those 13 entities get that money and they say, okay, it's 14 time for us to go about, waste water treatment 15 plant, EPA gave us money for, they go out 16 solicit bids and whatever for people to come 17 back to  18 MR. HAMMER: I have got you. 19 MS. PATRICK: That's the way you 20 have to be certified. 21 MR. HAMMER: I'm slow, but I got 22 you. 23 MR. MILES: I'm Johnny Miles, and 24 I'm here from Cartersville. Speaking of the 25 waste water treatment plants, and if y'all are 0027 1 giving grants to the state of Georgia, do you 2 say to the State of Georgia you have to spend 3 " X" amount of money on native Americans, an " X" 4 amount of money on African Americans, and " X" 5 amount of money on women owned businesses. 6 MS. PATRICK: There is how it works. 7 Whenever a grant goes out, our MBE WBE 8 requirements are in that grant, in the terms and 9 conditions. We'll skip ahead a little bit in 10 our presentation and explain this now. 11 In those terms or conditions there 12 is something called the six affirmative steps or 13 the six good faith efforts. Those efforts 14 require our grantees to go out and make sure 15 the opportunities under those grants are made 16 available to minority women owned businesses, and 17 so forth. 18 Those efforts include things, on 19 making sure your solicitations go out widely, 20 making sure that  the process is really 21 inclusive and that you do all that you can to 22 make sure you at least went out, and you went 23 to see if these businesses are available to do 24 that work. Those are the requirements we have. 25 Also, in each grant there is 0028 1 something called a goal that is negotiated with 2 the grantee. That goal can range from 1%, to 3 50%, or whatever, and it is based on something 4 called availability analysis. That availability 5 analysis is sort of a snapshot of what 6 businesses are available in your particular 7 geographical area or where you normally do your 8 buying practices. What minority businesses are 9 available to do the work. 10 And so let's say a State like 11 Georgia may have a pretty high percentage 12 because there are a lot more minority businesses 13 available to pull from, so the goal the may be 14  and I'm just pulling a number  something 15 like 40%, okay, whereas if you're talking about 16 Vermont, their goal may be 1% because there are 17 just not a lot of minorities up there in 18 Vermont. 19 So in each and every grant 20 agreement, there is a goal and there are those 21 six good faith efforts that you're supposed to 22 follow to make sure the minorities are included 23 in the process. 24 Rafeal is the person here in Region 25 4 that negotiates the goal with the grant 0029 1 recipient, and we're going to talk a little bit 2 later about how that is going to happen because 3 currently under the program, the tribal 4 governments that receive grants don't have to 5 negotiate goals. 6 Once this kicks in after a certain 7 criteria is met and we have some exemptions that 8 we'll talk about, some of the tribes will have 9 to now negotiate with EPA like the states do, 10 the nonprofits, et cetera, a goal based on the 11 availability of minorities in a geographic 12 location. 13 Looking at what your buying practices 14 are, and we're not saying go out and create 15 something, we just want to know what and how 16 you currently buy. What are your buying 17 practices, so we can take a look at that. 18 When we negotiate with the states, a lot of 19 times they have already done a disparity study, 20 and their disparity studies, while they are 21 large in scope, a lot of times they go into 22 the detail of the buying practices. That is 23 the case. We use that information. 24 Short of a disparity study, and 25 we're not telling people they have to do one 0030 1 because they cost a lot of money. We will 2 say, like Kimberly said, we have to do an 3 analysis, and we find the availability on that, 4 based on what your current buying practices are 5 to determine what those goals should be. 6 We in turn, I do a report to 7 Congress, and we collect this information from 8 across the country to see where and how the 9 money is being spent, and how the minority and 10 women owned businesses are being impacted. 11 We don't say so much has to go to 12 8 A, so much has to go tribally owned like we 13 in direct procurement. We do say minority and 14 women owned businesses, and so that is all 15 inclusive of everybody. 16 MR. JOHNSON: David Johnson. On the 17 deal where you were mentioning possibility like 18 Vermont where there is only 1%. Is there any 19 stipulation that would stop us as a tribe of 20 going long distances across the nation and doing 21 other work in locations there. 22 MS. BROWN: If that is your current 23 marketing strategy, and that is what you do, 24 fine. A lot of people do that. We have seen 25 where people maybe up in Georgia will come up 0031 1 to DC to do work. If that is what you do, 2 fine, but it is based on what your current 3 marketing strategy is, what your business 4 practices are, how you generally do work. 5 Some people go across the state of 6 Georgia and go to Tennessee, Mississippi, and 7 other places. Others maybe that are closer to 8 North Carolina, and some other places may do 9 their work in North Carolina, Virginia, and 10 Georgia. 11 Whatever your current practices are 12 is what we ask you to define, and as you are 13 defining it, and if you're looking to expand 14 because in particular when you start looking at 15 office supplies, depending on where you're 16 located you might not be able to get that 17 immediately in your locale, if you're remote on 18 a reservation far away and you might have to go 19 or order on line  and I hate to say it  20 from Staples. Do you know what I mean? If 21 that is what you do, that is what you do. 22 We're not asking you to change. We just have 23 to identify it, so we'll know what the 24 availability is and what it is based on. 25 What the grant recipients need to 0032 1 understand is, while we don't consider this to 2 be an affirmative action program, other people 3 do. Programs like this are being challenged all 4 over the country, similar to the one I talked 5 about, they set the standard for the Adarand 6 decision out of the State of Colorado. 7 If there is a challenge to the 8 program, guess what, the grantee has to defend 9 what they did with the money they got from EPA, 10 and we've got to defend what we did. We can't 11 defend what a grantee did if we don't know, and 12 so the key to all of this is documenting the 13 file. 14 If you have, as a tribal Government 15 TARO organization, where you come up with 16 policies and procedures on how the tribe well 17 operate, buy native American first, those kinds 18 of things, and that has all got to be 19 documented, and you have that, those are the 20 kinds of things that could be challenged, or 21 that is what we use in support of should there 22 be a challenging. 23 We're not trying to scare anybody. 24 We're saying the money is available, but what 25 people need to understand is it's not free or 0033 1 easy as you think. It comes with some 2 stipulations. We can't just give the money to 3 you and walk away. We have to be accountable 4 for how it is spent. 5 Basically what happened is this, back 6 in the early ' 70s, the early 80s, late ' 70s, we 7 saw in EPA where we had mega dollars going out. 8 Minorities and women were not getting their fair 9 share of the dollar, so Congress decided they 10 would do something about it, with this program 11 in particular, where one of three agencies that 12 have to report back, and this is tied to EPA's 13 appropriation budget, on how many money we get 14 as an agency. 15 The three agencies are DOT, EPA, and 16 NASA. I am not sure how NASA runs their 17 program, but we have been in contact extensively 18 with DOT, and worked with their attorneys, 19 Department of Justice has looked at this and 20 told us what we needed to do, et cetera. That 21 is where we're coming from. 22 We report back and make this 23 information available to Congress when they need 24 it or want it in terms of how EPA's money is 25 being spent overall or how minorities or women 0034 1 are benefitting from the dollars that are coming 2 out of EPA, both directly and indirectly. 3 Okay. Any questions or comments? 4 MS. PATRICK: The good faith 5 efforts. I talked about the terms and 6 conditions and the grant and the six good faith 7 efforts, efforts that are geared towards making 8 sure that minority, women owned businesses are 9 included in the process, know about the 10 opportunity, because you can't bid on something 11 if you don't know it exist. 12 So those are really pushed to make 13 sure the information is out there and they are 14 really inclusive about it. 15 In terms of contract administration 16 provisions, as we have gone out we have heard 17 time and time again that there are some 18 difficulties that subcontractors, in particular, 19 that are small minority women owned businesses 20 experience when dealing with a prime contractor 21 under a grant. 22 We have had complaints about people 23 not being paid on time. We have had issues 24 where subcontractors were mysteriously let go 25 once the prime contractor  0035 1 MS. BROWN: Won the award? 2 MS. PATRICK:  won the award. So 3 we have come up with some contract 4 administration provisions in this new rule to 5 safeguard against some the bait and switch 6 tactics that we see sort of happening out there. 7 The first one, the recipient must be 8 notified  recipient being the grantee  the 9 recipient must be notified in writing by its 10 prime contractor, contractor prior to any 11 termination or the DBE subcontractor. 12 A lot of times these terminations 13 happen and the recipient has no idea it took 14 place. Second, when a DBE subcontractor fails 15 to complete it's work under the subcontract for 16 any reason, the recipient must require the prime 17 contractor to make good faith efforts in hiring 18 another subcontractor. 19 That means that the prime contractor 20 has to go through the same six affirmative steps 21 when they go out to find another subcontractor, 22 if a DBE subcontractor is terminated for any 23 reason. They have to go through the same steps 24 in terms of making sure the minority women owned 25 business community knows about the opportunity. 0036 1 Third, a recipient must require its 2 prime contractor to make good faith efforts even 3 if the fair share of objectives are met. What 4 that means is we talked about the fair share 5 goals, the goals we talked about. A lot of 6 times recipients will say, well, I met my 23%, 7 I'm done. So that means I don't have to do 8 any of this other stuff, no more good faith 9 efforts, no, that is incorrect. 10 These provisions say that even if 11 your goals are met, say your goals are met with 12 that first contract you do as a recipient. 13 When you go out, if you get more EPA money, 14 you still have to go through the same process 15 each time. 16 It is not just about meeting the 17 goal. It is about been fair and inclusive. 18 We want to make that really clear. 19 Fourth, a recipient must require it 20 prime contractor to pay its subcontractor for 21 satisfactory performance within a specific number 22 of days from the prime contractor's receipt of 23 payment from the recipient. That is just to 24 make sure y'all get paid. 25 Fifth, a recipient must require the 0037 1 completion of a few new forms to prevent " bait 2 and switch" tactics at the subcontract level by 3 the prime contractor, which could circumvent the 4 spirit of the DBE program. The forms are just 5 forms documenting sort of what the prime 6 contractors  the recipients processes were and 7 sort of monitoring the activities of their prime 8 and their sub. 9 The forms are pretty simple. I 10 think both of them are one page. Those forms 11 are going through O& B processes and all that 12 good stuff before they're going to be introduced 13 to the public. O& B has to test them first to 14 make sure we meet all the paperwork reduction 15 act and all the other lovely requirements they 16 have for forms and information. 17 The next part, submission of fair 18 shares goals, which is what we just talked 19 about. The interesting thing about one of the 20 new things in the rule is that once a recipient 21 is awarded a grant, they have 90 days to 22 negotiate their fair share goal with us. 23 MS. BROWN: If they haven't already 24 done so. 25 MS. PATRICK: Right. If they have 0038 1 not negotiated that goal or a goal is not in 2 place within 90 days of the receipt of the 3 award, the recipient will not be able to spend 4 their money in the  5 MS. BROWN: Procurement dollars. 6 MS. PATRICK: In procurement dollars. 7 In other words, they can't spend in those four 8 categories that we talked about, which is just 9 about everything, so basically that means if you 10 don't come and negotiate with us, you can't 11 spend your money. That's a new provision. 12 That will sort of I think help recipients stay 13 on top of coming in and negotiating and getting 14 their goals in place. 15 MS. BROWN: We have used this in 16 certain instances in some of the states who have 17 not negotiated with us. We just held up their 18 procurement dollars or told they could not go 19 out and buy anything. That got their attention. 20 It didn't take them long to come to the table. 21 Money talks, speaks, goes a long way when you're 22 talking about holding it up or limiting what 23 they can or cannot do. 24 MS. BROWN: The other thing that 25 we're looking at, and one of the things we also 0039 1 say under this, that there is a possibility that 2 the cost for preparing an availability analysis 3 may be grant eligible and may be funded under 4 the grant to help cover the cost of an 5 availability analysis or disparity study, 6 depending on which route they want to take. 7 We do know that it is costly to do 8 the disparity studies. Some of the states and 9 some of the other larger grant recipients have 10 worked with some of the local colleges and 11 universities and they have helped them come up 12 with what their availability analysis is. 13 Probably, the National Center and 14 other organizations that could probably work with 15 a grant recipient as they look at this to 16 determine what their actual availability is of 17 minorities, of women in a geographic location, 18 if they haven't already done so. 19 This is new under the fair share of 20 goals. We're also suggesting, we're saying that 21 the goals once negotiated will probably be in 22 effect for about three years, so you don't have 23 to go every year and spend a lot of time 24 negotiating, going through the analysis. 25 What we have done basically thus 0040 1 far, and we started this about four years ago, 2 what we have done, like, when the new census 3 data came out, the last census data, we sent a 4 letter out to all of our grant recipients and 5 say we understand there has been a new census, 6 does this information change what your 7 availability analysis or your information, what 8 your fair share goals have indicated to us, if 9 it does, we need to discuss that, and maybe 10 even have negotiations. 11 Some of the people came in and 12 requested, based on the new census data 13 information that their goals be changed, and 14 some of their goals went down. Others their 15 goals went up. But we left that up to them. 16 But we're saying basically because we don't want 17  this is a lot  18 Rafeal, how many tribes do you have? 19 MR. SANTAMARIA: Six. 20 MS. BROWN: How many grant recipients 21 do you negotiate with? 22 MR. SANTAMARIA: Right now? 23 MS. BROWN: Not the tribes, but the 24 states and the others. 25 MR. SANTAMARIA: We have eight 0041 1 states, and we have negotiated goals with seven. 2 We still need one more. They need to do an 3 availability analysis. 4 MS. BROWN: In this regions, those 5 numbers are pretty small, and some others, say, 6 like west and California and some of the other 7 places where you're looking at the possibility 8 of how many tribes that we have identified. 9 MS. PATRICK: Region 10, 271 tribes 10 in Region 10 alone. 11 MS. BROWN: So you're talking about 12 a large magnitude, and we'll talk about some of 13 the exemptions you come up with, so that we 14 don't have to. This is a burden for us as 15 well. This is something we had not envisioned 16 doing. We didn't use to do this before, but 17 the new law of the land is something we have 18 to do, so we're trying to see how we can come 19 up with ways to lessen that burden on all of 20 us. 21 So basically  we'll talk about 22 that later  you find some of your larger 23 grant recipients who get a substantial amount of 24 money from us have would have to come to the 25 table and that $ 250,000 or more in any one year 0042 1 under one or more programs, and we'll get into 2 that a little bit later. 3 MS. PATRICK: Also, it is important 4 to point out with the goals because we know the 5 cost of the disparity studies and the 6 availability analysis could be prohibited for a 7 lot of tribes. It is an option, and I state 8 option very clearly, if the tribe wants to, and 9 the goal is appropriate for them, they can adopt 10 the goals negotiated by the state. 11 If they look at the state's goal and 12 they see that it's a tangible goal, makes sense 13 for them, that they buy in the same general 14 areas and the same types of things, the tribes 15 have the options of choosing to go with the 16 state goal if they want. 17 MS. BROWN: They don't have to. 18 We're not saying you have to because we know 19 how that can be, but if you look at it, and it 20 is similar to what your make up is, you can do 21 that. That is not just something we do with 22 the tribes but other grant recipients within the 23 state have that same option. Say like the 24 University of Georgia because they may be a 25 grant recipient, they can choose to take the 0043 1 state goal or come up with their own. 2 What we have found with a lot of 3 the colleges and universities that they have 4 their own minority business program, and they 5 have done and have their own program set up and 6 have goals already established that they have to 7 meet, so they would choose what we have seen in 8 a lot of instances is they choose to go with 9 what the colleges and universities have 10 established. But we try to give people an 11 option, so they won't have to take this large 12 burden or magnitude on immediately. 13 One of the other things that we go 14 into a lot of detail, and it's statistical and 15 it is how we worked with the Department of 16 Transportation on how to calculate fair share 17 goals, but for the most part we look at the 18 disparity study of the availability analysis, and 19 it is based on your current buying practices, 20 and if you keep that in mind, I think we're 21 okay. 22 There is a provision under the rule 23 where race and gender conscious efforts are 24 mentioned to the extent good faith efforts prove 25 to be inadequate or ineffective to achieve fair 0044 1 share goals, we have the ability to encourage a 2 recipient or prime contractor to take a 3 reasonable race or gender conscious action to 4 the extent necessary to more closely get to the 5 fair share goals they need to be there. Any 6 comments on that? 7 Okay. The exemptions that I've been 8 talking about, the EPA is proposing to exempt 9 recipients from any EPA, from EPA financial 10 assistance agreement in the amounts of $ 250,000 11 or less, for any single assistance agreement or 12 more than one financial assistance agreement 13 combined total $ 250,000 or less, and any one 14 fiscal year from the fair share negotiation 15 requirement. 16 The exemption is only from 17 negotiations. The good faith efforts, the six 18 affirmative steps are not something that we can 19 exempt. They already exist under the program, 20 and will continue to exist under the program, 21 and we don't have the authority to exempt 22 anybody from it. 23 So if you're a grant recipient, you 24 should already be doing the six good faith 25 efforts, the six affirmative step. The key to 0045 1 all of this is documentation to your file. 2 Because as a grant recipient you don't know when 3 we're going to come in and say show us your 4 files, tell us what it is you have done with 5 the money. 6 So as a grant recipient, and you 7 take this back to your tribes in particular, 8 they really have to document how, and if you 9 have certain parameters already established 10 within the tribal government, how you should do 11 your buying, buying tribal first, et cetera, all 12 of information should be embedded into your 13 recordkeeping, so that it is not made up as we 14 go along. We see that sometimes. 15 People, not just with the tribes, 16 but with other government they may not have it 17 in concrete, etched in stone, so they do what 18 ever. We recognize the good old boy network 19 system is alive and well in this country, and 20 they change the rules as they go through with 21 their times or let only those who they want to 22 know about what the process is, what it is, and 23 those are the kinds of things that we're looking 24 to change. 25 MS. PATRICK: The $ 250,000 exemption, 0046 1 that she was just talking about, also applies 2 under the ground fills and the safety and water 3 act type loan. That is our act, loans in the 4 program for EPA. The exemption applies there as 5 well. 6 Moving on. We also have exemptions 7 specifically for tribes and trusts, also for 8 trust heritage and such. Grants and tribes 9 intertribal consortia that are eligible to be 10 included in Performance Partnership Grants are 11 exempt from fair share negotiations. Technical 12 Assistance Grants are also exempted from the 13 fair share negotiations requirements. 14 What that means is if a grantee is 15 PPG eligible, not that, that it enrolled into a 16 PPG, but it is eligible to be included into 17 one, those grants are exempted from the goals 18 and the fair share requirement. That does not 19 mean that there is, this is not an exemption 20 from the six good faith efforts. It is not 21 exemption from having to report back. It's only 22 an exemption from negotiating the goal. That is 23 it. All those other things are still in place. 24 MS. BROWN: We have identified 25 probably about 17 different categories that this 0047 1 exemption will fall under with the various grant 2 programs that we have in the agency. 3 MS. PATRICK: What the rule for 4 Insular areas and tribes, the fair share 5 negotiation requirements  they will be a three 6 year face period for the rule for tribes and 7 trust territories. We understand that the 8 process of negotiating goals is new. The 9 process of negotiating goals is new not only to 10 the tribe, but it is new to us as well. So 11 there is a three year phasing period to make 12 sure everybody is board. 13 Now, expectation is during that time 14 is if you're with a tribe that has many of its 15 systems and everything in order, the expectation 16 is as you are ready to go forward with 17 negotiations, we want that to get started. We 18 don't want everyone to wait to the last day of 19 the third year, and say, okay, you know, now I 20 want to come and negotiate. That will defeat 21 the purpose of a phase in kind of thing, but 22 we want to give the program time, so it will 23 take root and for people to get used to it. 24 During that time, we plan on doing a 25 pretty hopefully massive education effort to get 0048 1 out there and make sure the tribes understand 2 what the program is about, and they understand 3 what these goals are about, and what these mean. 4 Make sure they understand a large 5 part of that these goals are not just for us, 6 but in terms of keeping money in the tribal 7 community. Having goals set in terms of how 8 you spend your money keeps your money recycling 9 where you are, and helps the tribe grow, and it 10 helps the community grow as a whole, so that is 11 one thing we really want to make sure of. 12 A lot of things we have here are 13 not just about so we can count beans. A lot 14 of this is about development, not only with the 15 businesses there, but also the tribe as a whole, 16 so we want to take the time to make sure that 17 takes root. 18 Recordkeeping and reporting 19 requirement, a recipient of a continuing 20 environmental program grant or other annual grant 21 would be required to create and maintain a 22 business list. Such a list must only be kept 23 until the grant project period has expired and 24 the recipient is no longer receiving funding 25 under the grant. 0049 1 This is a new requirement for the 2 recipient in terms of maintaining a list of 3 people or entities that bid on contracts under 4 that grant. Maintaining a bidder's list is a 5 good thing because it develops a resource for 6 the recipient in terms of getting to know a 7 little bit better about who is out there in 8 your business community, particularly the 9 minority women owned business community, who 10 they're processed with the six good faith 11 efforts. It makes no sense to go to the six 12 good faith efforts, find all these businesses, 13 and then you don't have a resource to go back 14 to the next time. You have a requirement, so 15 we're making sure the bidder's list is 16 maintained. It also allows us to take a look 17 at what your practices are. So if a list is 18 maintained we can sort of see. 19 Okay. Well, on this list of bids 20 you only have, you know, minorities or 21 women owned business contractors, what's sort of 22 going on here, what is happening. So the 23 bidder's list serves a number of functions. 24 MS. BROWN: We need to make sure 25 that we also say to  we're not saying a 0050 1 grant recipients has to contract with the 2 minority or women owned business. They may not 3 exist, but if they don't, or they've done gone 4 out and done their market survey, put an ad in 5 the newspaper and nobody responded, their 6 documentation needs to show or reflect what they 7 actually did, so that we have the documentation 8 to say, here, this is what our ad said. This 9 is where it was. We had in the paper, ran it 10 for a series of two weeks or a month, no 11 minority businesses came, or if a minority 12 business did come in, a women owned business. 13 They couldn't do it for the various reasons and 14 document why. Those are kinds of things that 15 we're looking for as well. 16 The bidder's mailing list, and we 17 did get quite a few questions stimulated around 18 what we consider a bidder's mailing list. It 19 is something we need to go back and take a 20 look at, and be a lot more clearer on, are you 21 talking about the availability analysis, that is 22 inclusive of everybody, or are you talking about 23 the people that would probably come in, that 24 we've already identified, or this same similar 25 type of work for this particular requirement, or 0051 1 are you talking about  actually the people 2 that came in under the bid is that the bidder's 3 mail in, so people are all across the board in 4 terms of what they think the definition is. 5 So, we're looking at that as well. 6 Any comments or questions in that 7 area? 8 MS. PATRICK: The bidder's list 9 requirement is also required under the loan 10 program, under the ground fill, and that's our 11 program as well. 12 The last thing I talk about there 13 are waivers. For the first time the rule is 14 the director of the OSDBU director can grant 15 waivers from any requirements under Part 33. 16 They are not based on the statute or executive 17 order. 18 What this means is while it is 19 possible that the director may be able to grant 20 a waiver from, let's say, negotiations, which is 21 not in statute or an executive order. 22 You could not waive the requirement 23 for the six affirmative steps. You could not 24 waive the other requirements, so if it is based 25 on statute or executive order, no authority to 0052 1 grant the waiver, you have to do it, but some 2 of the other requirements of the program, if 3 there is a legitimate why, you can't do this. 4 This is impossible. The bidder's list we're 5 also asking that you keep until the project 6 period, until it's identified or the loan has 7 ended. 8 Recipients are required to comply 9 with these recordkeeping requirements, even if 10 they are exempt from a applying the fair share 11 objective requirement. So the bidder's mailing 12 list is good for the project life. 13 Waivers, you already talked about 14 that. I can  currently I'm the one in the 15 position who will be the one to be able to 16 grant waivers on a case by case basis. 17 Next steps, and this is where we are 18 now, we're having these meetings around the 19 country to solicit and get input, and make 20 people aware of the proposed rule. What it is 21 that  we are hearing from many people it is 22 the first time that many people have come to 23 know the two ways to do business with EPA and 24 how that is. 25 There is a list of all our grants 0053 1 under catalogue of domestic assistance, and you 2 can get there from our website going to 3 www. epa. gov/ gab. 4 MS. PATRICK: Actually, it is a 5 little different. You don't even have to go 6 through, don't have to look at the catalogue. 7 If you go to the grant's website which is 8 www. EPA. GOV/ OGS, which stands for office grants 9 and department. Once you go to that site, 10 there is somewhere where you can click to get 11 to the specific grant part of it. That's where 12 you have to go. Once you get there, there is 13 a button where you can where you can pull up 14 the grant's database. You can actually see a 15 part of, get on line, and it's part of the 16 whole information. The information is there for 17 you. 18 In that database is a listing of all 19 our grant recipients. The money that they have 20 received, how much the money was and when they 21 received it. All that information is public 22 information, and it can be found there, and that 23 can give you an idea where to go to look for 24 contract dollars if you know they have got the 25 money. 0054 1 Yes, sir. 2 MR. CRANE: Jerry Crane, through 3 Alpha, will the bidder's list also end up on 4 that website in terms of all the grants? 5 MS. BROWN: It probably won't. 6 MS. PATRICK: We haven't even 7 thought that far ahead with the process, and I 8 couldn't imagine that it would not because it 9 could be considered a business proprietary type 10 of information. An actual bidder's list would 11 be a little bit too much information. 12 MS. BROWN: When you look at how 13 many grants we're talking about, and the various 14 grant recipients, individuals may get a grant 15 from EPA, and if they go out and buy something, 16 depending on how much it is, if they are not 17 in those exempted categories, they're included. 18 You're talking about a volume there 19 that we probably cannot, and it is based on 20 what they do, and then they would have to give 21 that to us, and somehow I don't think we 22 envisioned that. 23 What we do have is a process 24 internally where the grant recipients goals, as 25 they have been negotiated by MBE, we have a 0055 1 person like Rafeal and everyone of the ten 2 regions who help carry out the program, when 3 they negotiate their goals and put that on an 4 Intranet database, so that the grant specialist 5 can see what the goals are as they have been 6 negotiated with MBE WBE coordinators. We have 7 that available. To put the bidder's list, I 8 don't think so. 9 Any other comments or questions? 10 MR. MILES: Johnny Miles again. 11 Would we be able to contact Rafeal? I'm 12 assuming he is in the Atlanta area. 13 MS. BROWN: Yes, he is. He is 14 right here. He is your point of contact. 15 Rafeal, you can give them your name, phone 16 number, and he has got a card for you. He has 17 got quite a few of them, so all of you will 18 have one. It is good to know him because he 19 can put you also in contact with other 20 businesses. A lot of times they might have 21 procurement affairs for opportunities within the 22 region, where they might bring you in some of 23 the other grant recipients from the states that 24 they represent, Georgia and Mississippi. 25 MR. SANTAMARIA: Georgia, Alabama, 0056 1 Mississippi, South Carolina, North Carolina, 2 Kentucky, Tennessee, Florida. 3 MS. BROWN: Those are all the states 4 that they represent here in this region, so 5 there may be a, tremendous opportunities, you 6 just need to go and know where to find it, so 7 he is a resource for you here in the region. 8 We're out of Washington DC, the 9 overall managers of the program. Our office 10 number is, area code, 202 564 4100. You can go 11 to our website at WWW. EPA. GOV/ OSDBU, Office of 12 Small and Disadvantage Business Utilization, 13 OSDBU. 14 MS. ELLIS: Sandra Ellis. So you're 15 saying that the grants are eligible for a 16 minority, small business, or an individual 17 business is eligible for these grants? 18 MS. BROWN: No, these grants are not 19 for profit organizations. It is nonprofit, 20 private individuals, possibly that is doing 21 research, that kind of thing, colleges and 22 universities, tribal government, state and local 23 government, the trust territories, but a business 24 can't go after grant money under this program. 25 Now, if your tribal government 0057 1 receives a grant, and there are businesses on 2 the reservation or under the tribal government, 3 they can be one of those contractors, if they 4 go out buy anything in one of those four 5 categories, but the tribal government is the 6 entity that will go after the grant and not the 7 business. 8 MS. PATRICK: For example, if your 9 tribe goes to get the SBA certification, the 10 tribe itself could receive a grant from EPA as 11 the tribe, not your business entities, where if 12 you apply for a grant with EPA, it is not if 13 you apply for a tribe. 14 Okay. Then once you get the grant, 15 you must work under that grant that your tribal 16 business can do with that, have that 17 certification, then it is like contracting with 18 yourself, but that is pretty much how it works. 19 You have to keep it separate and distinct from 20 the nonprofit. 21 MS. ELLIS: Are you saying in order 22 for the tribal entity to receive a grant, they 23 have to be registered with EPA? 24 MS. PATRICK: No. Well, the tribal 25 entity, you're talking about the tribal business. 0058 1 Once this rule goes into effect they need to be 2 certified as a business under the grant program. 3 Now, if they want to do direct business with 4 EPA, that is a whole other ball of wax, they 5 don't have to be certified to do direct business 6 with EPA. 7 MS. BROWN: Under this program for 8 the tribal government they have to be federally 9 recognized Rafeal? 10 MR. SANTAMARIA: Excuse me? 11 MS. BROWN: The tribes have to be 12 federally recognized? 13 MR. SANTAMARIA: Yes. 14 MR. HAMMER: Is it possible to get 15 recognition under the EPA without federally, 16 without the tribe being federally recognized, 17 have you ever come across that? 18 MS. PATRICK: Currently the way our 19 program is set up is that we would only certify 20 federally recognized tribes. 21 MR. JOHNSON: How can we change it? 22 MS. PATRICK: Send in your comments 23 to be perfectly honest. Send in your comments, 24 your suggestions, you know, your reasons or 25 whatever you think that we should. I don't 0059 1 believe that is one that is completely a, you 2 know, a nail shut issue, but it is something we 3 would visit. 4 I want to make it really clear that 5 when we receive comments, we take them very 6 seriously. We have to consider them. We have 7 to develop what our response was to them. That 8 is published in the Federal Register after all 9 the process is gone through, so it is not a 10 small thing to make a comment or to send one 11 in because it can result in changes. 12 A lot of changes you see in here 13 with the exemptions are direct results of 14 comments we received from tribes across the 15 country, back before certifying women owned 16 businesses, direct result of comments we received 17 across the county. So your comments are 18 important. We need them, so when I say one of 19 the best ways to get into the middle of the 20 issue, it would be to submit a formal comment 21 to let us know. 22 MS. BROWN: That is a concern and 23 something we need to look at from your 24 perspective. 25 MR. JOHNSON: David Johnson. In 0060 1 reference to the federally recognized and 2 nonfederal recognized, we have got roughly, and 3 I don't remember the exact numbers, but 4 somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 and some odd 5 federally recognized, a grand total of some 6 excess of 800 tribes that are state recognized 7 or tribal entities or what have you, and some 8 of the federal recognized tribes have been 9 derecognized, have been rerecognized, and when 10 you get into this dilemma of back and forth, 11 that creates a problem because there are places 12 that are just very slow about recognizing, and 13 to be frank here in the state of Georgia that 14 we're actually in, probably the state of Georgia 15 will never recognize. They did and then 16 rescinded, and as far as allowed because the sad 17 fact is Indians or Native Americans are still 18 not welcome in a lot of areas, you know? 19 About three years ago I was at an 20 official recognition from some of the Oklahoma 21 groups to come back into the State of Alabama, 22 which happened down at Fort Mitchell, where in 23 the 1830s our people had to leave and go, so 24 this is a real problem on quote, unquote, who 25 is recognized. If we get some education money 0061 1 from the federal government and turn right 2 around and say, well, you're not federally 3 recognized, so it is one of these partial deals, 4 and we got into the dilemma we'll go all or 5 none. Well, we don't want that. We want our 6 recognition to be able to do business as who we 7 are, rather than a classification that someone 8 reaches up here and says, okay, we're going to 9 recognize these and not these because the 10 800 something tribes, and the government is 11 saying we're federally going to recognize 550 or 12 so, I mean, that is a real problem with us. 13 MS. BROWN: Put that comment and 14 that issue and concern in writing to us so we 15 can take a look at it. We have it on the 16 transcript. 17 MR. WILLIAMS: George Williams. 18 Some of these state recognized tribes, even 19 though they are a state recognized tribe and not 20 federally recognized, I mean, if they're in 21 small rural communities, I mean, they're eligible 22 for other types of grants from the federal 23 government, from EPA. 24 MS. PATRICK: See federally 25 recognized, also we recognize in terms of 0062 1 getting grants, you know, we can monitor stuff. 2 I don't know if that is a huge issue. I have 3 to look at the grant regulations to make sure 4 I'm speaking the truth here, but we can give a 5 grant to a university or a nonprofit, and it is 6 not based on anything. I mean, the grant 7 process is a little different. You submit your 8 paperwork for the grant based on what your need 9 is. So if you're in a situation where, let's 10 say, there are grants available to put in a 11 sewer system, and your area needs that 12 particular sewer system, you can apply for the 13 grant, and I'm not sure if those same types of 14 distinctions are made. I don't know if we have 15 grants only for tribes or not. I'm not sure. 16 MS. BROWN: I think we do. 17 MS. PATRICK: Well, probably with 18 the grants that are only for tribes. Maybe 19 there, the distinction between the federally and 20 nonfederally recognized, but in terms of grants 21 who are just opened for anybody to a apply for, 22 of course, you're eligible for it, but I need 23 to look at the regulations to answer that 24 conclusively. 25 So, I mean, I don't think not being 0063 1 federally recognized is a bar to give you all 2 grant money. It just depends on how the grant 3 is written, and what the requirement are for 4 each particular grant. They may vary. 5 MR. JOHNSON: David Johnson. Do you 6 have a list of good grant writers? 7 MS. PATRICK: I don't know any right 8 offhand. 9 MS. BROWN: There is a group, and I 10 can't think of it. Does the National Center? 11 Do you assist with grant writing? 12 MR. GREGORY: We do have some 13 references, but we don't do grant writing, but 14 we have some in the Microsoft database. 15 MS. BROWN: Why don't you check with 16 the National Center to see who they have. 17 There is a husband and wife team, 18 Greenwoods. They do some extensive working with 19 I know a lot of historically black colleges, 20 minority institutions, and some of the colleges 21 and universities on grant writing and working 22 with them to understand what the process is 23 because a large part of this is knowing how to 24 write the grant, how to be responsive and to 25 give us what we ask for, those kind of things. 0064 1 We do have in our doing business 2 with EPA  do you have any of the black books 3 Rafeal. 4 MR. SANTAMARIA: We have run out of 5 them, but I could get them for you. 6 MS. BROWN: In there there is an on 7 line that will take you step with by step for 8 filling out the grant application, so that might 9 be a good tool for you if you can ask us to 10 take a look to what we're asking for, what you 11 need to fill out. 12 Let me go back, and I'll making a 13 note to at least get to you the Greenwoods' 14 information. Of course, these are just 15 suggested sources. I can't tell them if you go 16 to them and you get a grant. I can't say that 17 either. 18 MR. MILES: Johnny Miles. I'd like 19 to follow up on something he said earlier. The 20 State of Georgia, they don't recognize any 21 Native American tribes at all within the state. 22 And I'm from Tennessee, Kingston, and the last I 23 heard when I enlisted with the state five years 24 ago, I was the only Native American contractor 25 with the State of Georgia. 0065 1 From my understanding there are just 2 not that many contractors, and when I'm going 3 out looking for different projects, it really 4 never came into play. I've always been a 5 little bit passed over on, you know, that is 6 why I started going as a prime contractor 7 looking at say under a million dollar jobs, 8 half million dollar jobs, stuff that I could do. 9 That is what I'm trying to find out 10 is how does a Native American company enlisted 11 with the state, how do I make that work to my 12 advantage? I hate to say it that way, but how 13 do I make sense out of that? 14 MS. BROWN: I'll tell you again. A 15 lot of these programs, quote, unquote, the state 16 and local jurisdictions are moving away from 17 them as preference programs, a lot of them, and 18 when we start looking out west with the State 19 of California and the State of Georgia, they 20 have done away with their minority business 21 programs all together. 22 They don't even collect data on the 23 number of, or register minority businesses in 24 their states. They're saying it is not a 25 factor. They don't have any issues. There is 0066 1 no disparity. We know differently. But those 2 states have chosen to do that. 3 They recognize, though, that when you 4 take this federal government money, this is 5 different, so when they take the federal funds, 6 this program is still in existence, so they have 7 to figure out how they're going to get the 8 federal money and maintain the requirements that 9 we say that come with this money. That is why 10 I say you can't just come to the table and try 11 to get the money and say, don't bother me 12 anymore. I got my grant. That is it. 13 Doesn't work that way. 14 MS. PATRICK: In terms of working 15 your tribal status to your advantage, let's say, 16 you're in the State of Georgia where they don't 17 recognize any tribes, okay, to the extent that 18 Georgia may or may  I'm not sure about 19 Georgia's program. Let's say Georgia does have 20 a minority business contracting program the state 21 uses, okay? 22 MR. MILES: They go  23 MS. PATRICK: Just because you're 24 from an Indian tribe, a Native American, that 25 doesn't conclude you from still being a 0067 1 minority, and so you apply for these programs, 2 and you go after these contracts in your 3 minority status, because I don't know of 4 anybody's minority definition and regulation does 5 not include Indian or Native American in their 6 definition of who is a minority. 7 MR. WILLIAMS: George Williams. 8 Just to answer give you an example, there is a 9 construction company, and it's one of our 10 clients that are an 8 A contract, and actually 11 they're very successful. They are called All 12 Points Logistics, and he is a member of the 13 Georgia Confederacy of the Cherokee. Now, he 14 was able to get his 8 A certification based on 15 he is a member of the state recognized tribe, 16 and he has been an 8 A program, and has been 17 quite successful, but as a member of a state 18 recognized tribe, it does qualify you as a 19 minority, makes you eligible for the SBA 20 programs; however, as a member of a state 21 recognized tribe, you are not eligible to the 22 federal programs that are available to members 23 of federally recognized tribes. So there is a 24 difference. 25 Some people say, well, I must be 0068 1 fairly legally recognized because the SBA gave 2 me my 8 A certification. No, that is not the 3 case. The SBA just looked at your particular 4 situation and deemed that you were a socially 5 disadvantaged individual, not that you were a 6 member of a tribe. So that is the difference. 7 And that is what you need to pursue with your 8 8 A certification. 9 MS. BROWN: Ma'am, do you have a 10 question? 11 MS. KATHY: My name is Kathy. I 12 own a manufacturing corporation in Guntersville, 13 Alabama. The way that I got Cherokee heritage 14 recognized because I found my relatives through 15 a blood relation. My relative were on the Doss 16 and the Doss is federally recognized. There are 17 five recognized roles in the United States. My 18 family was registered on the Doss. I am 19 federally recognized by the Cherokee tribe. 20 MR. HAMMER: You as an individual 21 are federally recognized? 22 MS. KATHY: There are five 23 recognized roles in the United States. If your 24 family is on those roles, you can find 25 bloodline, you are federally recognized. 0069 1 MR. JOHNSON: You get a check. 2 MS. KATHY: That is what my senator 3 told me, and that is how I've worked. 4 MR. JOHNSON: Do you get a check? 5 MS. KATHY: No, I don't get a 6 check. 7 MR. JOHNSON: That is where the line 8 ends. 9 MS. PATRICK: Let me do this. The 10 hearing, if all matters concerning our lovely 11 little rule are closed, can we say that? Have 12 we any more questions on the rule? You can 13 stop reporting. We're done with the hearing. 14 ( Whereupon, this meeting was concluded 15 at 11: 30 a. m.) 16 . 17 . 18 . 19 . 20 . 21 . 22 . 23 . 24 . 25 . 0070 1 STATE OF GEORGIA: 2 COUNTY OF FULTON: 3 I hereby certify that the foregoing 4 transcript was reported, as stated in the 5 caption, and the questions and answers 6 thereto were reduced to typewriting under my 7 direction; that the foregoing pages represent 8 a true, complete, and correct transcript of 9 the evidence given upon said hearing, and I 10 further certify that I am not of kin or 11 counsel to the parties in the case; am not 12 in the employ of counsel for any of said 13 parties; nor am I in anywise interested in 14 the result of said case. 15 . 16 . 17 . 18 . 19 . 20 . 21 . 22 . 23 . 24 . 25 . 0071 1 Disclosure Pursuant to Article 2 8( B) of the Rules and Regulations of the 3 Board of Court Reporting of the Judicial 4 Council of Georgia, I make the following 5 disclosure: 6 I am a Georgia Certified Court 7 Reporter, here as a representative of 8 Alexander Gallo & Associates, Inc., to report 9 the foregoing matter. Alexander Gallo & 10 Associates, Inc., is not taking this 11 deposition under any contract that is 12 prohibited by O. C. G. A. 5 14 37 ( a) and ( b). 13 Alexander Gallo & Associates, 14 Inc., will be charging its usual and 15 customary rates for this transcript. 16 . 17 . 18 19 N. GAIL STUDSTILL, CCR B 2294 20 . 21 . 22 . 23 . 24 . 25 .