15              Because what we've found through

      16   looking at all sorts of different studies,

      17   particularly one in Canada, is that people were so

      18   dehydrated, and we go from zero to 100 so quickly,

      19   and wearing heavy gear and doing intense

      20   activities, that it causes our blood to be

      21   predisposed to clotting, which then increases our

      22   chance of cardiovascular problems.

                                                         303

       1              So that's one thing amongst a lot of

       2   others.

       3              And so we have this rehab standard.

       4   It's all set.  It's all ready to go.  And one of

       5   the things I talked to Sarah about was, it's

       6   just -- it's there.  It's 1584.  Make a motion to

       7   use it as a resource for OSHA, if they so choose,

       8   just a recommendation.

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.  I

      10   neglected to point out that Sarah shared with me

      11   that the sentence that you had written about this,

      12   and that the last sentence of the draft that I

      13   read was essentially what you had provided, with

      14   the exception of mentioning the NFPA guideline

      15   specifically.

      16              So what I read is this activity should

      17   also include consideration of proper rest and

      18   rehabilitation procedures for such work and

      19   working environments.

      20              What I left off was "based on the NFPA

      21   standard on rehabilitation."

      22              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Oh, okay.

                                                         304

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And I did that --

       2              DR. BUCHAN:  [inaudible]

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I did that because I

       4   didn't think that the committee members were

       5   sufficiently familiar with that to get that

       6   specific.

       7              DR. BUCHAN:  [inaudible] have a heat

       8   and stress --

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Right.  Without

      10   having another hour or more of discussion and

      11   background material, I'm a little uneasy about

      12   getting that specific.

      13              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Yeah, I wasn't

      14   sure.  I thought maybe part of our job was to

      15   offer up those resources if they were done.  But

      16   you know, we're being broad, I guess is what

      17   you -- got it.

      18              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.  Just a

      19   suggestion, instead of referencing a specific

      20   standard, just indicate consideration of National

      21   Consensus Standards --

      22              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  There you go.

                                                         305

       1                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Just depending --

       3   okay.

       4              MR. KNOWLES:  There are a number of

       5   National Consensus Standards which may have

       6   applicability, and that would give the committee

       7   the flexibility to --

       8                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So a sentence that

      10   says the agency should -- or NACOSH advises --

      11              MR. KNOWLES:  That are applicable to --

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  -- consideration of

      13   applicable consensus standards.

      14              MS. SHORTALL:  But then you could also

      15   put in here, "such as," like the one that --

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I know we could.

      17   Something makes me a little uneasy about that.

      18              Peg Seminario.

      19              And then Bill Borwegen.

      20              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, I think there's

      21   probably other information out there than just

      22   consensus standards.  And so if you're going to

                                                         306

       1   start saying that, recommended guidelines,

       2   consensus standards, make it broader in terms of

       3   what you're --

       4              Could you just read the last sentence?

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yeah.  It just said,

       6   "This should also include consideration of proper

       7   rest and rehabilitation procedures for such work

       8   and working environments."

       9              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, you may want to

      10   say, not just procedures.

      11              MR. GODDARD:  Best practices --

      12              MS. SEMINARIO:  No.  Taking into

      13   account existing consensus standards, guidelines,

      14   practices, recommendations.  There's a broader

      15   universe of -- we talked about the military,

      16   right, having certain regiments --

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So it would be

      18   something along the lines of, this should also

      19   include consideration of existing proper rest and

      20   rehabilitation guidelines, and programs?

      21              MS. SEMINARIO:  Practices, right.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Rehabilitation

                                                         307

       1   guidelines and practices.

       2                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       3              DR. BUCHAN:  Would the Coast Guard have

       4   heat stress recommendations?

       5              DR. MURRAY:  Well, I think the sentence

       6   would say that it's out there, so we don't have to

       7   list every one of them.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So it now reads:

       9              "It should also include consideration

      10   of existing rest and rehabilitation guidelines and

      11   practices for such work and working environments."

      12              Are you comfortable with that?

      13              MS. SHORTALL:  Is this information that

      14   they hand out?  Or ...

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I'm sorry.  That

      16   applies to -- there were two very specific

      17   recommendations.

      18              One was for the immediate provision of

      19   information and advice.

      20              And the other one expedited

      21   establishment of more formal guidelines and/or

      22   rules.

                                                         308

       1              And that whole exercise needs to

       2   include consideration of these existing practices

       3   and guidelines.

       4              Are people comfortable with that?

       5              Okay.

       6              We're going to have time to recycle

       7   back through these again before we're done.

       8   Because I understand this stuff, especially if

       9   you're trying to do it all in your head, requires

      10   a little bit of percolating.

      11              Peter?

      12              MR. DOOLEY:  Another -- I mean, an

      13   issue that's part of this same problem is that --

      14   and I know it was mentioned in the Exxon Valdez

      15   cleanup where the long working hours were not

      16   considered when both the company and agencies were

      17   looking at exposure limits.  They were assuming a

      18   40-hour work week.

      19              So for all the health and safety

      20   evaluations that are being done, it needs to be,

      21   you know, considered the working hours that are

      22   involved with these workers.

                                                         309

       1              So it's a little -- it's a different

       2   aspect, but may be something that we want to

       3   include.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  It seems to me,

       5   Peter, that you're getting at a subject that we

       6   discussed briefly, but don't have on the list for

       7   full recommendation; namely, the exposure

       8   assessment, and how it --

       9              MR. DOOLEY:  Well, yeah, exposure --

      10   yeah, but also, like, for safety -- in other

      11   words, safety procedures can be affected by long

      12   working hours.

      13              So the agencies need to be considering

      14   that when they're looking at what the --

      15   characterizing the job, and coming up with

      16   recommendations.

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Roy?

      18              DR. BUCHAN:  I think you need to know

      19   some of these guidelines, like the military and

      20   the ACGIH recommendations heat stress guidelines

      21   are all based on a 40-hour work week, 8 hours a

      22   day.  They don't go beyond that.  That's a basic

                                                         310

       1   assumption that they have.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  You're raising a

       3   legitimate concern.  It's part of the whole set of

       4   issues we're discussing.  But I am reluctant to,

       5   in effect, start Christmas treeing the specific

       6   recommendations we're making.

       7              It will be too easy for us to start

       8   adding things to the point that -- I think it goes

       9   beyond what we can reasonably consider adequately

      10   in one day.

      11              So maybe we'll come back to that, but

      12   let's hold on for right now.

      13              Okay.

      14              Let's move onto the next one.  I think

      15   Peg had something that you were working on for a

      16   recommendation.

      17              MS. SEMINARIO:  The recommendation I

      18   was asked to work on deals with the question of

      19   resources.  And I'll just read it.

      20              "The Gulf coast response is requiring

      21   and will continue to require significant OSHA and

      22   NIOSH resources to ensure the protection of

                                                         311

       1   workers involved in the response.

       2              "President Obama has stated clearly and

       3   emphatically that BP will be required to pay for

       4   the response and cleanup.

       5              "To this end, NACOSH recommends that as

       6   soon as possible OSHA and NIOSH prepare a

       7   comprehensive assessment of the resources, both

       8   monetary and staff time, that will be required to

       9   fully and effectively protect workers involved in

      10   the response.

      11              "This assessment should include the

      12   cost of agency resources, required outside

      13   experts, and immediate and long-term evaluation of

      14   health impacts of this spill.

      15              "In addition, the agency should

      16   identify other activities that are being foregone

      17   as a result of the diversion of resources.

      18              "The agencies should seek reimbursement

      19   and funding for these activities from BP as soon

      20   as possible.

      21              "If there is difficulty in securing

      22   immediate payment from BP, the committee

                                                         312

       1   recommends the agency seek supplemental funding to

       2   cover the cost of response activities, so that the

       3   agencies will have sufficient resources to

       4   undertake other planned activities and programs."

       5              And the point of that last line is,

       6   it's not going to help OSHA and NIOSH if they

       7   don't get reimbursed for two years and they can't

       8   do their other work as a result of all their money

       9   being sucked in, and their time being sucked into

      10   the Gulf Coast issues.

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Bill Borwegen.

      12              MR. BORWEGEN:  I'm not sure if it

      13   captures it, but I'm wondering if we could argue

      14   for, actually, advanced dollars, you know, as

      15   opposed to billable hours.  Reimbursement --

      16              MS. SEMINARIO:  That's what I said.  I

      17   said for payment --

      18              MR. BORWEGEN:  Okay.  Upfront money --

      19              MS. SEMINARIO:  Both.  It was -- that's

      20   what I basically put in here.

      21              Reimbursement and funding for these

      22   activities.  So it's both the past reimbursement

                                                         313

       1   and forward funding.

       2              MR. BORWEGEN:  "And advanced funding"?

       3   I don't know, just to clarify.

       4              MS. SEMINARIO:  Yeah, future funding,

       5   right, or advanced funding.

       6              MR. BORWEGEN:  Advanced.

       7              MS. SEMINARIO:  Advanced funding.

       8   Uh-huh.

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Tim?

      10              DR. KEY:  Mike, Tim Key.

      11              We also want to include a phrase, "and

      12   other involved parties," because Transoceanic and

      13   Halliburton are involved, and BP will say, it's

      14   not ours; it's theirs.  And then, you know, lose

      15   the whole thing.

      16                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I'm not sufficiently

      18   knowledgeable to answer that.

      19              DR. BUCHAN:  We have somebody who was a

      20   solicitor over here who could handle that.  I

      21   mean ...

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That's not a ...

                                                         314

       1                       (LAUGHTER)

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That's a broader

       3   question than --

       4              DR. BUCHAN:  I think that's beyond our

       5   scope.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg, do you know?

       7              Does anybody have sufficient

       8   information to address that?

       9              What we do know, and I think Peg's

      10   statement incorporated this, is that we were told

      11   by OSHA that BP has agreed to reimburse, or to

      12   pay, to make whole.

      13              DR. MURRAY:  The language I used in

      14   what I wrote was "responsible parties."  Just

      15   because I wasn't sure if BP was the only

      16   responsible party.  But we know BP is a

      17   responsible party.  I don't know if there are

      18   others.  I don't know.  But --

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, what if -- what

      20   about just adding, "BP and other responsible

      21   parties", in case there are others?

      22              DR. KEY:  Right.  Well, the thing is

                                                         315

       1   Transoceanic owned the platform.  Halliburton did

       2   the work.  And they've all pointed fingers at each

       3   other.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Right.  Keith

       5   Goddard?

       6              MR. GODDARD:  It gets complicated

       7   quickly, because it's not a fixed drilling rig,

       8   which gives us different jurisdictional issues.

       9   It's a vessel.  And it doesn't -- it's not

      10   registered under an American flag --

      11              UNKNOWN VOICE:  That's just great.

      12              MR. GODDARD:  -- so it gets

      13   complicated.  And right there, that's an

      14   example --

      15                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      16              DR. KEY:  I would say that Linda's

      17   inclusion of "responsible parties" would be

      18   reasonable.

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg Seminario?

      20              MS. SEMINARIO:  What I would just

      21   suggest right now is that we put that in brackets,

      22   "and other responsible parties," and then just

                                                         316

       1   find out, which I think the agency can tell us, as

       2   to whether or not the arrangement right now --

       3   because there's an arrangement right now that BP

       4   has said they're going to pay.

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I understand the need

       6   for more information.  But the recommendation that

       7   we make has to be what we can recommend at the end

       8   of this meeting.

       9              DR. MURRAY:  But let me ask this, I

      10   don't mean this as a legal question.  But if we

      11   use the language of "BP and any other responsible

      12   parties," it doesn't -- that leaves it open either

      13   way.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think that's a safe

      15   way to do it.  Yeah.

      16              Bill Borwegen.

      17              MR. BORWEGEN:  Well, my understanding

      18   is that BP owns the oil, and the oil is what's

      19   causing the problem.

      20              So I -- you know, BP -- I think BP's

      21   going to have their own legal thing with these

      22   other companies, but the bottom line is the oil is

                                                         317

       1   what's causing the problem, and BP owns the oil,

       2   apparently 100 percent.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Here's where I think

       4   we're on safe ground.  We've heard -- I think all

       5   of us have heard statements from BP saying that

       6   they're accepting at least some degree of

       7   financial responsibility, and we've heard that

       8   from government agencies as well.  So we're safe

       9   in including BP in a sentence like this.

      10              I think that since we don't know

      11   whether there are others, a general phrase like,

      12   "other responsible parties," is safe.  If there

      13   are some, they would be included; and if there

      14   aren't any, then it's a moot point.

      15              Is that fair enough?

      16              Other comments to Peg's language.

      17              Any uneasiness with it?

      18              Okay.  Emory.

      19              MR. KNOWLES:  Yes.  Emory Knowles.

      20              I'm a little bit uneasy with this whole

      21   issue of talking about recovering dollars from BP,

      22   or whatever.  This is an advisory committee.  We

                                                         318

       1   can certainly -- I can see us certainly advising

       2   OSHA to make public the impact of the outreach

       3   initiatives on the agency, and cost of the agency.

       4              I don't think that this committee can

       5   specify how OSHA or NIOSH should proceed to

       6   recover any of those costs.

       7              So I have some uneasiness in terms of

       8   what this whole motion really is saying.

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg, any -- what were

      10   your thoughts as you were drafting that?

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  My thoughts are the

      12   discussions that we have had with the agencies, as

      13   one of the huge concerns here, is that this

      14   activity is going to suck the life out of these

      15   agencies and they're not going to be able to do

      16   anything else they need to do.

      17              And so, there is a need, as I said, not

      18   only to get funding for this ASAP, that funding

      19   should come from BP, as BP has said.

      20              But if not, I really do think the

      21   agencies have got to look to some other -- whether

      22   there's a supplemental appropriation to be

                                                         319

       1   repaid -- the whole point here is that we want

       2   these agencies to function and do more than what

       3   is going on in the Gulf of Mexico.

       4              And so it's both the two parts of

       5   responsible party, but there's a locality of other

       6   activities that need to be undertaken by these

       7   agencies, and if they don't have the money right

       8   now because it's all going into the Gulf of

       9   Mexico, that issue has got to be dealt with,

      10   either getting the money right now from BP or

      11   getting some supplemental funding, or else all the

      12   other things we've talked about aren't going to

      13   happen.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Now, my thought about

      15   this is that I heard Dr. Michaels indicate that

      16   the agency has been assured that it will be made

      17   financially whole for the resources they've

      18   diverted to this.

      19              My experience is that it's more often

      20   than not the case that assurance of this kind fall

      21   through the cracks as subsequent events develop.

      22              And I think that I heard Dr. Michaels

                                                         320

       1   say that he would not be adverse to advice coming

       2   from this committee that basically would be along

       3   the lines of pressing the agency to, or stressing

       4   that the agency should pursue this vigorously,

       5   rather than just passively let it happen.

       6              With that in mind, Peg, could you read

       7   the operative language from your draft again, to

       8   see if it captures that?

       9              MS. SEMINARIO:  I don't need to go

      10   through -- basically, one was just a cost

      11   assessment, to enumerate what the needs are, not

      12   just the past billing, but looking forward here to

      13   what those are.

      14              "The agencies should seek reimbursement

      15   and advanced funding for these activities from BP

      16   and any other responsible parties as soon as

      17   possible.

      18              "If there is difficulty in securing

      19   immediate payment, the committee recommends the

      20   agency seek supplemental funding to cover the

      21   costs of response activities, so that the agencies

      22   will have sufficient resources to undertake other

                                                         321

       1   planned activities and programs."

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Does that sound okay?

       3                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Bill Borwegen.

       5              MR. BORWEGEN:  It doesn't sound like

       6   we're really going above and beyond what BP's

       7   telling us in their daily full-page Washington

       8   Post, you know, newspaper ads.

       9              So, you know, I mean, they've already

      10   told us that this is what they want to do.  So

      11   we're just asking them -- so this is just kind of

      12   a -- we're echoing what their policy is.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes, Joe.

      14              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.

      15              I think we should have a statement like

      16   this in the proposal, because I think we should be

      17   clear that we don't want OSHA to sacrifice the

      18   other programs that they have planned because

      19   there is this emergency that has to be addressed.

      20              So I think it's important that it be

      21   there.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Any other

                                                         322

       1   thoughts about this one?  We're doing okay here,

       2   but what I want to do is move onto the third of

       3   the specific recommendations that I think Peter

       4   was working on.

       5              Then I want to come back to the each of

       6   the three, go back over them once more, and see if

       7   we have a majority or not on each of them.

       8              MR. DOOLEY:  Peter Dooley with

       9   LaborSafe.

      10              I'm proud to say I think I have the

      11   shortest version of this.

      12                       (LAUGHTER)

      13              MR. DOOLEY:  But, "NACOSH recommends

      14   that OSHA and NIOSH design, implement and evaluate

      15   pilot projects to identify hazards and field test

      16   the best available control technology for oil

      17   cleanup workers in the Gulf.

      18              "Advanced worker education and training

      19   will also be developed and implemented to utilize

      20   this control technology.

      21              "These projects may be done in

      22   conjunction with NIOSH health hazard evaluations,

                                                         323

       1   if the utilization of control technology is the

       2   primary focus of the project."

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Reactions to that

       4   language.

       5              Bill Borwegen.

       6              MR. BORWEGEN:  I don't know what

       7   authority, I guess we don't -- I think we'd be

       8   remiss not to mention the role of NIEHS to the

       9   degree that we could.

      10              And, you know, they have a whole worker

      11   education and training program.  They actually --

      12   they're down there now doing training with OSHA

      13   and NIOSH and the Coast Guard and everyone else.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg --

      15              MS. SHORTALL:  I do have a question --

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Sarah, Sarah

      17   Shortall.

      18                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      19              MS. SHORTALL:  -- you want to make sure

      20   that the language is clear in what you're asking

      21   the agencies to do.

      22              In your statement, you said that it

                                                         324

       1   would be pilot projects of the best available

       2   technology.

       3              So what would the pilot project show?

       4   Would it show it's the best available technology?

       5   Or would it do something else?

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Why don't you read

       7   the sentence again.

       8              MR. DOOLEY:  Sure.  Sure.

       9              "It recommends OSHA and NIOSH design,

      10   implement and evaluate pilot projects to identify

      11   hazards and field test the best available control

      12   technology for oil cleanup workers in the Gulf."

      13              MS. SHORTALL:  So a question I'm asking

      14   is, are you going to choose one of the -- are you

      15   suggesting the agency choose what is the best, and

      16   then field test it?

      17              Or field test what is available to find

      18   out what's the best?

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Linda Rae Murray.

      20              DR. MURRAY:  I think that may be a

      21   little bit of a detail that may be unnecessary.  I

      22   think -- so you could have a study -- there may be

                                                         325

       1   three, quote/unquote best, but different

       2   technologies, and they might do a project to

       3   evaluate the effect of each one of them in the

       4   field.

       5              You know, just because there's a

       6   consensus that this is the best respirator for

       7   solvents or something like that, doesn't mean

       8   necessarily on a boat in the middle of the ocean,

       9   at 100 degrees, that it is the best.

      10              But I think the key thing here is that

      11   it's going to be evaluating and field testing.

      12              I don't know if it helps you to drop

      13   the word "pilot," and just say the word

      14   "projects."  I don't know if that would helps,

      15   so ...

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Roy Buchan.

      17              DR. BUCHAN:  Well, I think at some

      18   point you kind of need to define "control" by

      19   saying "control health and safety hazards."

      20              I don't know how you'd put that in

      21   there, but I don't think we're talking about

      22   controlling the oil coming out.

                                                         326

       1              DR. MURRAY:  If we could figure out how

       2   to do that, that would be --

       3                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       4                       (LAUGHTER)

       5              MR. DOOLEY:  "The best available health

       6   and safety control technology"?

       7              UNKNOWN VOICE:  Yeah, that's fine.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think that's

       9   appropriate.

      10              Yes, Susan Randolph, and then Bill.

      11              MS. RANDOLPH:  Susan Randolph, UNC.

      12              And carrying that last point that you

      13   made, Peter, it sounds very familiar to, I guess

      14   the third -- from the third recommendations that

      15   Denise wrote in her part of conducting pilot

      16   studies that identify the most effective worker

      17   protective -- protection methods for specific oil

      18   spill recovery test jobs.

      19              So I'm getting a little confused, I

      20   guess, between sort of the work group and this

      21   particular piece in recommendations that we're

      22   making now.

                                                         327

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think what you were

       2   referring to was, when you started -- the language

       3   describing the work group we're setting up.  And

       4   it does include reference to some of these

       5   specific things.  And it just gives us the

       6   opportunity as the work group continues over time

       7   to continue to address these issues, even beyond

       8   the specific recommendations we make today.

       9              So there's a little bit of redundancy,

      10   but what you were just reading from was not one of

      11   our recommendations.  It was just the descriptions

      12   for ourselves about our work group.

      13              MS. RANDOLPH:  But off that, really

      14   almost sounds like it was what Peter was saying.

      15   So I was just trying to have some clarity as to --

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  There is some

      17   redundancy.

      18              Bill Borwegen, and then Peg Seminario.

      19              MR. BORWEGEN:  Peter, can you repeat

      20   the part about training, what you say about

      21   training?

      22              MR. DOOLEY:  So, what I say is,

                                                         328

       1   "Advanced worker education and training will also

       2   be developed and implemented to utilize this

       3   control technology."

       4              MS. SEMINARIO:  Should.  Should.  It's

       5   a recommendation.

       6              MR. DOOLEY:  Right.  Yes.

       7              MR. BORWEGEN:  I'm thinking about NIEHS

       8   and how they have a minimum training criteria

       9   document.

      10              Are we asking OSHA to --

      11                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      12              MR. BORWEGEN:  I mean, should we be

      13   asking OSHA and NIOSH to define the minimum level

      14   of training that is acceptable for doing the

      15   different jobs?

      16              Either through -- I'm thinking of the

      17   blood borne pathogen standard that specifies, you

      18   know, the six or eight topical areas that need to

      19   be covered.

      20              Right now it seems to be based on

      21   length of training, but I'm not sure if it lists,

      22   you know -- you know, maybe this is too detailed

                                                         329

       1   but all I can tell you is it has a major impact on

       2   implementation.

       3              And if you -- I'm wondering if we

       4   should be asking NIOSH and OSHA to specify the

       5   topics that should be covered in a training

       6   specific to the job task that workers are being

       7   assigned to perform.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg Seminario.

       9              MS. SEMINARIO:  Somewhat related to

      10   this, one of the things that has not yet happened,

      11   and I raised it earlier with John Howard and David

      12   Michaels, is that we don't have a good

      13   characterization of the operations and the jobs,

      14   what's involved with them in terms of the, you

      15   know, the type of work, the hours of work, the

      16   exposure to hazards, and what specific protections

      17   are being recommended, what levels of training.

      18              And, to me, that's the first thing this

      19   agency should be doing, before looking at specific

      20   pilots or whatever, on control measures.

      21              Let's do a -- immediately -- a

      22   characterization of the operations and jobs, the

                                                         330

       1   major operations and jobs, and get that

       2   information in place, so that it is readily

       3   available and accessible to the contractors who

       4   are doing that work, the workers who are involved

       5   in that work, the health officials who are getting

       6   in reports, the practitioners who are seeing these

       7   workers.

       8              It doesn't exist right now, and so, to

       9   me, that would be the major recommendation that I

      10   would make to the agencies right now, what is

      11   desperately needed, and for that to be updated as

      12   more information comes forward about exposures,

      13   controls.  But to put it all together -- but to

      14   put it together based upon the operations and the

      15   jobs, because that's what people are doing.

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  What do people feel

      17   about that?

      18              Peter?

      19              MR. DOOLEY:  Well, the only -- I mean,

      20   I am definitely comfortable with the idea of doing

      21   the -- in order to do this, you have to do, sort,

      22   of the --

                                                         331

       1                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       2              MR. DOOLEY:  -- of the job, but I would

       3   also be saying that the control -- you know, sort

       4   of, the best control measures can be sort of done

       5   at the same time as the characterization of the

       6   job, or at least described as, you know, as best

       7   as we know it.

       8              MS. SEMINARIO:  Right.  And then update

       9   it as you have more information.

      10              MR. DOOLEY:  Right.

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  Right.  And so -- and I

      12   think also the training, what level of training,

      13   and on what issues, should be included for these

      14   different kinds of jobs and operations.

      15              Because 4 hours, 8 hours, 12 hours, 24,

      16   we don't know.  And nobody knows.  Maybe OSHA

      17   knows, maybe BP knows, but nobody else knows.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So, what I'm hearing,

      19   Peg, is this suggestion that we kind of reframe

      20   this recommendation in such a way that it would

      21   start off by saying that NACOSH advises OSHA and

      22   NIOSH to cooperate on an assessment of --

                                                         332

       1              MS. SEMINARIO:  But a characterization,

       2   more than an assessment.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  With a

       4   characterization of -- help me with where you're

       5   going with this.

       6              MS. SEMINARIO:  The identification and

       7   characterization of the major operations and jobs

       8   involved in the Gulf Coast --

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And the hazards

      10   associated with these?

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  The hazards associated

      12   with these.

      13              Also, information on the numbers of

      14   workers involved in these activities.

      15              The recommended -- well, any

      16   information on exposures.  Exposure monitoring

      17   results.

      18              Recommended control measures,

      19   including, you know, the best available control

      20   measures.

      21              Recommended training.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peter, does that work

                                                         333

       1   for you?

       2              MR. DOOLEY:  Yes.  Absolutely.  Yeah.

       3   Yeah.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Does that

       5   formulation -- what does the committee feel about

       6   that formulation?

       7              DR. MURRAY:  I think that's good.  You

       8   know, I think the spirit of what Peter has written

       9   is just to say we need to intentionally evaluate

      10   and study [inaudible].

      11              And Peg's expanded that beyond just

      12   training and control technology, to these other

      13   basic -- and we all agree that those are basic

      14   things, but I don't think it hurts to list them.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Did anybody write

      16   fast enough to capture most of this?

      17              MS. SEMINARIO:  I can write it down.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Can you do that while

      19   we come back to the --

      20              MS. SEMINARIO:  Uh-huh.

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  What I want to do is

      22   go back and re-read the other two, and see if they

                                                         334

       1   still make sense to people before we poll to see

       2   if we have a majority.

       3              And I would just point out, since this

       4   is the first time we've done this, that the

       5   paragraph in 1912(a) that addresses advice and

       6   recommendations from the committee, indicates, as

       7   I said earlier, that these recommendations be made

       8   with the approval of a majority of the committee

       9   members present, presuming we have a quorum.

      10              And that the chair shall include in any

      11   such advice or recommendation any concurring or

      12   dissenting views as well as any abstentions.

      13              So people may vote against, and people

      14   may abstain.  And if so, I would be required to

      15   pass that on to the agencies.

      16              Also, any member may submit his or her

      17   own advice and recommendations in the form of

      18   individual views, if you so choose.  So I just

      19   want to make sure you understand that.

      20              With that in mind, let me ask Linda to

      21   re-read what would be the introductory section.

      22              And this would be followed by the

                                                         335

       1   committee makes the following three

       2   recommendations to OSHA and NIOSH, and they will

       3   be listed separately.

       4              DR. MURRAY:  "The Gulf oil spill of

       5   2010 represents one of the largest threats to

       6   environmental quality to health of workers in

       7   surrounding communities.

       8              "An appropriate response to this public

       9   health emergency will require the use of broad

      10   public health interventions and tools in order to

      11   protect the environment and the health of workers

      12   and communities.

      13              "We urge a coordinated and unified

      14   implementation of worker and community emergency

      15   temporary standards in order to protect the health

      16   of the population.

      17              "We are to coordinate a communication

      18   and media plan to inform workers in the general

      19   public about risks to human health in the

      20   environment, and reflects the urgent and rapidly

      21   evolving situation in the Gulf.

      22              "We urge the active and continuing

                                                         336

       1   involvement and coordination of all relevant

       2   federal agencies; for example, OSHA, NIOSH, NIEHS,

       3   EPA, FDA, Coast Guard, state and local health

       4   departments, civic and community groups, industry

       5   and labor experts, to address this emergency.

       6              "Appropriate response to this threat to

       7   health and environment require adequate funding,

       8   which must be borne by those industries

       9   responsible for this disaster."

      10              And I didn't write down the sentence

      11   you said, for the following --

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  The --

      13              DR. MURRAY:  We make the following

      14   recommendations --

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  NACOSH makes the

      16   following recommendations to OSHA and NIOSH.

      17              DR. MURRAY:  Okay.

      18              MS. SHORTALL:  What is the urging?

      19   What does it mean to urge --

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  What does it mean to

      21   urge?  Well, these are -- these are introductory

      22   statements --

                                                         337

       1              DR. MURRAY:  It's not a recommendation.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  It's not a

       3   recommendation.  These are introductory

       4   statements.

       5                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       6              DR. MURRAY:  I deliberately try to do

       7   avoid the word "recommendation."

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.  Joe Van Houten.

       9              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.  I

      10   just had an issue with one word.  Where we are

      11   asking individuals or entities to bear the costs,

      12   I would prefer that we use the word "companies"

      13   instead of "industries."  Because "industry," to

      14   me, implies --

      15              DR. MURRAY:  Oh, yes --

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Good point.

      17   Excellent point.  Thank you.

      18              Any other catches?

      19              All right.  Let's go on then, to the

      20   specific recommendations, and I'm going to come

      21   back and ask for a show of hands or some other

      22   response to each of these separately.  So we're

                                                         338

       1   not going to do this as an entire group, but we'll

       2   do the preamble and then each of the three

       3   recommendations separately.

       4              MS. SHORTALL:  I'm sorry to bring up

       5   one more thing about Linda Rae.

       6              Are you saying that -- are you saying

       7   that things such as the coordination of agencies,

       8   is that something that you would like to see

       9   happen?  Or is that necessary for an effective

      10   public health response?

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I would say that it

      12   doesn't actually matter, that we believe that this

      13   is warranted.  It is not a formal recommendation,

      14   so I think an expression of general belief about

      15   these things is probably sufficient.

      16              Does that work, Sarah?

      17              MS. SHORTALL:  Oh, I was just going to

      18   suggest, you know, if you believe, you know, if

      19   you believe there should be coordination and this

      20   and that, you know, state what your belief is.

      21              DR. MURRAY:  Well, again, me, you could

      22   make all of this a recommendation.  And I think --

                                                         339

       1   I think it better meets the spirit of what we

       2   talked about at this meeting to leave it as a

       3   preamble.  And I think we can make three very

       4   specific recommendations.

       5              Clearly, there are a bunch of other

       6   good things that should be going on, many of which

       7   are going on.

       8              So I'm comfortable with the three

       9   recommendations we have.  And this is sort of a

      10   context for it.

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And let's hold; we'll

      12   come back and do a show of hands about that.

      13              We'll go on to the first of the three

      14   recommendations.

      15              This one has a little explanatory

      16   language before it gets to the active

      17   recommendation itself.

      18              "Gulf oil spill recovery activities

      19   have been characterized by law" --

      20              Actually, there is a question about

      21   this that Sarah raised, that I think is worth

      22   considering.  And I'll come back to that after I

                                                         340

       1   read this.

       2              "Gulf oil spill recovery activities

       3   have been characterized by long work hours under

       4   conditions requiring extreme physical exertion and

       5   exposure to hot and humid environments.

       6              "NACOSH believes that long hours of

       7   work, whether measured by individual work shift or

       8   weekly, especially under conditions of physical

       9   exertion and heat exposure, are associated with

      10   work-related injuries and other adverse health

      11   effects.

      12              "While NACOSH does not recommend

      13   specific limits on work hours or schedules at this

      14   time, the committee believes that at least work

      15   shifts more than 12 hours and work weeks more than

      16   60 hours are excessive.

      17              "NACOSH advises that OSHA and NIOSH

      18   provide immediate information and advice to

      19   employers and employees regarding work hours and

      20   work schedules considered excessive.

      21              "NACOSH further advises the agencies to

      22   expedite the establishment of more formal

                                                         341

       1   guidelines and rules governing work hours and work

       2   schedules, including but not limited to the

       3   possible promulgation of an emergency temporary

       4   standard for Gulf oil spill recovery workers.

       5              "This should also include consideration

       6   of existing rest and rehabilitation guidelines and

       7   practices for such work and working environments."

       8              The specific question that Sarah asked

       9   had to do with exactly what do we mean in this

      10   statement by a "12-hour work shift".

      11              There's certainly, in some industries

      12   and occupations where people are on duty for more

      13   than 12 hours, and we might not necessarily

      14   include all such activities being excessive.

      15              So there's a fine point here, and I

      16   don't want to over -- I don't want to become too

      17   extreme in the way we address this.  So, if

      18   somebody can help out with this --

      19              MS. SHORTALL:  I was going to suggest

      20   that you add the language, under the work shifts

      21   of 12 hours or more, or more than 60 hours a week,

      22   under the -- under the conditions described above.

                                                         342

       1              I think that's what you're trying to

       2   get at, so that if a supervisor who is in an air

       3   conditioned office dealing with that, a 12-hour

       4   shift may not pose the same problem as a person

       5   walking along the shore in 100-degree weather,

       6   trying to pull up booms.

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Bill Borwegen?

       8              MR. BORWEGEN:  I agree with Sarah.  And

       9   I would argue that 60 hours, or 12 hours may be

      10   excessive under very physically demanding tasks

      11   under -- you know, under --

      12              MS. SHORTALL:  The conditions --

      13              MR. BORWEGEN:  -- under hot -- you

      14   know, under, you know, under high heat conditions.

      15              I mean, I don't want us to -- you know,

      16   you flip the coin, I mean, 60-hour weeks and

      17   12-hour days may not be appropriate for a --

      18   highly physically demanding jobs under very hot

      19   conditions.  So --

      20                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yeah, Roy Buchan.

      22              DR. BUCHAN:  According to current

                                                         343

       1   guidelines, and so on and so forth," we could

       2   shorten that.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think that Sarah's

       4   language might be a neat way of dealing with this,

       5   by simply adding, where it says "more than 12

       6   hours" -- "work shifts more than 12 hours and work

       7   weeks more than 60 hours are excessive under the

       8   conditions described above," that would address

       9   the specific circumstances without saying that

      10   there are no other circumstances in which limits

      11   are necessary.

      12              I would not --

      13                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Emory Knowles, did

      15   you have your hand up?

      16              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.

      17              The only quandary I have relative to

      18   this is that as commented earlier by Roy, all the

      19   currently nationally recommended guidelines on

      20   heat stress are based on the 8-hour workday,

      21   40-hour work week.

      22              So how can we say that 12 hours is

                                                         344

       1   different than 10 hours is different than 14

       2   hours?  Should we even specify hours?

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, that -- the

       4   point's well taken.  That's why I put in a

       5   qualifying phrase.  It may not sufficiently

       6   address what you're talking about, but let me

       7   explain what I did.

       8              I said, "The committee believes that at

       9   least work shifts more than 12 hours," you know,

      10   "under the conditions described above."

      11              I had the sense that, unless we said

      12   something specific, it becomes too general to be

      13   useful.  The agency could decide to get even

      14   tighter than that, and this would give them the

      15   opportunity to do it.

      16              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.

      17              My only concern here is that there may

      18   be a large outcry from public health professionals

      19   if we specify a specific number of hours.

      20              So by qualifying that --

      21              DR. BUCHAN:  Maybe we could just say

      22   "excessive hours"?

                                                         345

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Joe Van Houten.

       2              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.

       3              Would it be appropriate to specifically

       4   ask NIOSH to develop a model for what is

       5   appropriate in this case?

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Not -- I don't think

       7   so, if we hope to encourage some rapid action.

       8              The minute we say, "This needs to be

       9   studied," it no longer becomes an immediate act.

      10              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Okay.

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Linda Rae Murray.

      12              DR. MURRAY:  I, too, am a little

      13   worried about the 12 hours, and 60 hours that

      14   we've talked about today, because it almost

      15   implies that if it's 11 hours, it's okay.  So I'm

      16   trying to find a word that says ...

      17              The other thing that I think is

      18   missing, which may help us is that, even if --

      19   [inaudible] even if in some settings people after

      20   10-hour shift, or a, you know, in terms of an

      21   emergency response, we're talking about months,

      22   weeks at a time.

                                                         346

       1              So, maybe we could find some language

       2   that even goes back to the 8 hours and 40 hours a

       3   week that says, under these conditions, working

       4   times, and you know, longer than --

       5                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       6              DR. MURRAY:  -- 8 hours a day, 40 hours

       7   a week, for long periods of time, whatever we want

       8   to say, weeks or months, and then your language.

       9   This is shown to be difficult.

      10              So that implies that even the 8 hours

      11   maybe -- it doesn't say, but, you know, just says,

      12   this is our norm, 8 hours, 40 hours a week, and

      13   under these conditions, that alone may be -- "may

      14   be" you could use the word "may be" -- "may be

      15   excessive."

      16              And that clearly implies that 10 hours

      17   or 12 hours, or certainly 14 hours are even more

      18   of a concern.

      19              So some language like that, which, you

      20   know, doesn't have us working double shifts.

      21              And I think the emphasis here is that

      22   we're not talking about a, you know, fire in a

                                                         347

       1   company, in the middle of a city, and people work

       2   12-hour shifts and they go home for two days or

       3   something like that.  We're talking about a

       4   longitudinal exposure.

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  So we're now

       6   considering something -- I'll come back to that.

       7              We're talking about something along the

       8   lines of, the committee believes that, under the

       9   conditions described above, work schedules and

      10   hours exceeding ... something ...

      11              DR. BUCHAN:  Or just say excessive work

      12   hours.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, we can't just

      14   say that unless we define it.  So we're trying to

      15   get language which indicates something that we

      16   believe is excessive.

      17              DR. MURRAY:  Something like "working

      18   conditions described above, which may last for

      19   weeks to months, any hours over 8 hours a day, 40

      20   hours a week, may be," whatever you said there.

      21                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  -- described who have

                                                         348

       1   work schedules and hours beyond the traditional 8

       2   hours a day and 40 hours a week may be --

       3                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  -- may be excessive,

       5   especially considering that these schedules may be

       6   required for a long period of time.

       7              DR. MURRAY:  Something like that, yeah.

       8   Exactly.

       9              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles again.

      10              Or perhaps "in excess of nationally

      11   recognized consensus standards."

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, again, this

      13   goes back to a discussion we had earlier.  Unless

      14   we all know what we're talking -- what we have in

      15   mind when we say "consensus" --

      16              MR. KNOWLES:  You have guidelines and

      17   stuff at the end of that.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That was in the

      19   recommendation for NIOSH and OSHA to establish

      20   such.

      21              MR. KNOWLES:  Yes.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Joe --

                                                         349

       1              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.

       2              My suggestion was going to be coupling

       3   this with ongoing medical surveillance, that says,

       4   pick a timeframe, and then -- in saying that there

       5   needs to be ongoing medical surveillance, and the

       6   timeframe should be adjusted downward, based on

       7   results of that medical surveillance.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I've got some

       9   language here which might work.  Let me try this

      10   out.

      11              Bill, a comment first?

      12              MR. BORWEGEN:  I mean, to me, it's

      13   like, depending on the -- the level of physical

      14   demands of the job, combined with the

      15   environmental conditions, a typical work week,

      16   blah-blah-blah.  You know, a typical 8-hour,

      17   40-hour a week work week may need -- you know,

      18   whatever, may be excessive.

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me try out this

      20   language.  And again, this would not be the active

      21   language on what we advise.  This would be a

      22   statement about what we believe.

                                                         350

       1              And then there's the action to provide

       2   information, and to expedite the development of

       3   rules and guidelines follows this.

       4              I would say this:

       5              "The committee believes that under the

       6   conditions described above," which dealt with

       7   physical exertion and heat -- "under the

       8   conditions described above, work schedules and

       9   hours in excess of traditional 8 hours a day and

      10   40 hours a week are likely to be excessive,

      11   especially if the schedules are required for

      12   extended periods."

      13              MS. SHORTALL:  Is likely or may?

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Is likely.

      15              Not "may," "is likely."  That's

      16   stronger language.

      17              Anybody uncomfortable with that framing

      18   of it?

      19              Okay, great.

      20              Now, we just talked about one sentence

      21   in here.  For those who remember the rest of what

      22   was in here, was there any hiccups with it?

                                                         351

       1              Okay.

       2              Then let's -- I'm going to ask -- Peg

       3   is still working on the third recommendation, but

       4   I was going to ask her to go back and re-read the

       5   second --

       6                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  You need to hold your

       8   brain together while you finish?

       9              MS. SEMINARIO:  No, this computer just

      10   keeps going to sleep.

      11              So, all right.  Recommendation on

      12   resources.

      13              "The Gulf Coast response is requiring

      14   and will continue to require significant OSHA and

      15   NIOSH resources to ensure the protection of

      16   workers involved in the response.

      17              "President Obama has stated clearly and

      18   emphatically that BP will be required to pay for

      19   the response and cleanup.

      20              "To this end NACOSH recommends that, as

      21   soon as possible, OSHA and NIOSH prepare a

      22   comprehensive assessment of the resources, both

                                                         352

       1   monetary and staff time, that will be required to

       2   fully and effectively protect workers involved in

       3   the response.

       4              "This assessment should include the

       5   cost of agency resources, required outside

       6   experts, and the immediate and long-term

       7   evaluation of the health impacts of the spill.

       8              "In addition, the agency should

       9   identify other activities that are being foregone

      10   as a result of the diversion of resources.

      11              "The agency should seek reimbursement

      12   and advanced funding for these activities from BP

      13   and any other responsible parties as soon as

      14   possible.

      15              "If there is difficulty in securing

      16   immediate payment, the committee recommends the

      17   agency seek supplemental funding to cover the cost

      18   of the response activities, so the agencies will

      19   have sufficient resources to undertake other

      20   planned activities and programs."

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Comments and thoughts

      22   about that?

                                                         353

       1              Yes, Joe Van Houten.

       2              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.

       3              Just one thought at the end.  Instead

       4   of "other programs" how about "previously planned"

       5   or something that --

       6              MS. SEMINARIO:  Yeah, that --

       7              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  -- something that

       8   gives the impression that these were things that

       9   were on the docket or on the agenda to be done,

      10   and they had to be halted because of this event.

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  Okay.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Read that

      13   sentence again, as amended.

      14              MS. SEMINARIO:  "So that the agencies

      15   will have sufficient resources to undertake

      16   previously planned activities and programs."

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Any problems

      18   with that?

      19              Any other concerns, objections,

      20   additions, modifications to Peg's language?

      21              Okay.

      22              Do you have the language for the third

                                                         354

       1   one?

       2              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, I think I can

       3   cobble it together here from what I did before.

       4              Basically, that it makes it easier to

       5   do these as two pieces --

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Two separate

       7   recommendations?

       8              MS. SEMINARIO:  No, no.  One

       9   recommendation, but --

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Two parts.  Okay.

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  Rather than mushing

      12   them, just combining them.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  This is all

      14   number 3 recommendation.

      15              MS. SEMINARIO:  "NACOSH recommends that

      16   OSHA and NIOSH identify, evaluate and characterize

      17   the major operations and jobs that are being

      18   conducted in the Gulf Coast oil response.

      19              "For each of these operations and jobs,

      20   this evaluation should include:

      21              A description of the operation or jobs;

      22              The number of workers involved in this

                                                         355

       1   work;

       2              The potential hazards and exposures

       3   presented by this work, including the results of

       4   any exposure monitoring, potential health effects

       5   or injuries associated with such exposures;

       6              And any reports of such occurrences,

       7   recommended control measures, recommended

       8   training, including the length of training and

       9   topics that should be covered.

      10              "In addition, NACOSH recommends that

      11   OSHA, NIOSH" --

      12              I would say, "in conjunction with

      13   NIEHS," because we can't recommend to NIEHS.

      14              "design, implement and evaluate pilot

      15   projects to identify and field test the best

      16   available control technology and methods for oil

      17   cleanup workers in the Gulf.

      18              "Advanced worker education and training

      19   should also be developed and implemented to

      20   utilize the control technologies.

      21              "These projects may be done in

      22   conjunction with NIOSH HEEs if the utilization of

                                                         356

       1   control technology is the primary focus of the

       2   projects."

       3              Then, one last sentence:

       4              "These characterizations and

       5   recommendations should be readily accessible to

       6   employers, workers, occupational safety and health

       7   professionals or community, and should be updated

       8   as new information becomes available."

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  That was a lot

      10   to put in our brains all at once, but, reactions

      11   to it?

      12              Emory Knowles.

      13              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.

      14              Just one comment on your -- I believe

      15   what you read on the computer screen, about the

      16   Gulf, and best available control technologies for

      17   protection of workers.  Can you add the word

      18   "protection"?

      19              The use of best available control

      20   technologies --

      21                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      22              MR. KNOWLES:  For protection of

                                                         357

       1   workers.

       2              MS. SEMINARIO:  And that it's for

       3   protection, right, of cleanup workers in the Gulf.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.  Good

       5   catch.

       6              Anything else about the language Peg

       7   read?

       8              Joe Van Houten.

       9              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.

      10              Just an offer for consideration.  Much

      11   of what you described up front, to me, sounded

      12   like a job safety analysis for each of the tasks.

      13              Would it be more efficient to say a job

      14   safety analysis has to be done for each of the

      15   tasks?  Or do we want to specify out all the

      16   steps?

      17              MR. DOOLEY:  I think it would be better

      18   to specify --

      19              MS. SEMINARIO:  Specify --

      20                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      21              UNKNOWN VOICE:  The more specification

      22   the better, just, in terms of what we really

                                                         358

       1   need --

       2              MS. SEMINARIO:  Right.  In terms of the

       3   major information that we're looking for.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  You know, while I

       5   think you're right in a substantive sense, we have

       6   to recognize that the audience for this may go

       7   beyond those who understand what's meant by "job

       8   safety analysis."

       9              UNKNOWN VOICE:  Okay.

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Other thoughts on --

      11              Yes, Susan Randolph.

      12              MS. RANDOLPH:  Susan Randolph.

      13              But that is with the use of personal

      14   protection equipment, is that implied under the

      15   control measures?

      16              MS. SEMINARIO:  Yes.  In fact, I didn't

      17   read that, because I didn't -- yes.

      18              "Recommending control measures, and it

      19   should say -- I've got the word "including," and

      20   then I got pulled away here.

      21              "Including recommendations for personal

      22   protective equipment."

                                                         359

       1              Fine.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Now, I believe that

       3   with regard to the preamble and to the first of

       4   the two recommendations, we had enough discussion

       5   about the language, so that when we vote on it, we

       6   know what we're voting on.

       7              For this one, I'd like you to read it

       8   once more.

       9              MS. SEMINARIO:  Okay.  I have a request

      10   at this point, and that is since the only real

      11   records, since we're not passing all these around

      12   to everyone, is going to be the transcript, I

      13   think for protection, you should read the entire

      14   thing through, so that --

      15              DR. MURRAY:  Can't we just hand the

      16   written --

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I appreciate that.  I

      18   think we could do that, except we might do

      19   something with the handwriting.

      20              But more important than that, since

      21   David Michaels and Debbie Berkowitz just stepped

      22   back in, I would like them to hear what it is

                                                         360

       1   we're about to vote on.  Okay?  So that serves two

       2   purposes at once.

       3              It will take a little bit extra time.

       4   We have 45 minutes left until some of us

       5   immediately leave, but we're going to make it,

       6   okay?

       7              So let's go back.  What we've got,

       8   Dr. Michaels, is a set of -- a set of three

       9   recommendations prefaced by a preamble, all of

      10   which deal with issues having to do with

      11   protection of workers engaged in the Gulf oil

      12   spill recovery efforts.

      13              So what I'm going to do is, we're going

      14   to read each one of these, and then, poll the

      15   group, either a formal vote, or a less former show

      16   of hands, on each one of those separately.

      17              So Linda Rae Murray is going to read

      18   what will be a preamble.  This by itself is not a

      19   formal recommendation.

      20              DR. MURRAY:  I'm going to read this

      21   accurately, since you're going to go from the

      22   transcript.

                                                         361

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And we will read

       2   them -- we'll use the transcript itself for you to

       3   transcribe --

       4         (PROPOSED PREAMBLE TO RECOMMENDATIONS)

       5              DR. MURRAY:  Okay.  I'm still -- okay.

       6              "The Gulf oil spill of 2010 represents

       7   one of the largest threats to environmental

       8   quality in the health of workers and surrounding

       9   communities.

      10              "An appropriate response to this public

      11   health emergency will require the use of broad

      12   public health interventions and tools in order to

      13   protect the environment and the health of workers

      14   and communities.

      15              "We urge a coordinated and unified

      16   implementation of worker and community emergency

      17   temporary standards in order to protect the health

      18   of the population.

      19              "We urge your coordinated communication

      20   and immediate plan to inform workers in the

      21   general public about risks to human health and the

      22   environment that reflects the urgent and rapidly

                                                         362

       1   evolving situation in the Gulf.

       2              "We urge the active and continuing

       3   involvement in coordination of all relevant

       4   federal agencies:

       5              "For example, OSHA, NIOSH, NIEHS, EPA,

       6   FDA, Coast Guard, state and local public health

       7   departments, civic and community groups, industry

       8   and labor experts, to address this emergency.

       9              "Appropriate responses to this threat

      10   to health and environment require adequate

      11   funding, which must be borne by those companies

      12   responsible for this disaster.

      13              "NACOSH makes the following

      14   recommendations."

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Recommendations will

      16   follow, but I would like -- I think we've had

      17   sufficient discussion about that.

      18              I'd like to, by a show of hands, see if

      19   there is agreement with the statement that Linda

      20   just read.

      21              So for those who are in agreement,

      22   please raise your hand.

                                                         363

       1              That is a unanimous vote of the full

       2   committee, minus one.  So quorum is satisfied and

       3   the vote is by more than a majority.

       4            (PREAMBLE ACCEPTED BY COMMITTEE)

       5              And we'll move onto the first of three

       6   recommendations.

       7              (PROPOSED RECOMMENDATION 1)

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  "Gulf oil spill

       9   recovery activities have been characterized by

      10   long work hours under conditions requiring extreme

      11   physical exertion and exposure to hot and humid

      12   environments.

      13              "NACOSH believes that long hours of

      14   work, whether measured by individual work shift or

      15   weekly, especially under conditions of physical

      16   exertion and heat exposure, are associated with

      17   work-related injuries and other adverse health

      18   effects.

      19              "While NACOSH does not recommend

      20   specific limits on work hours or schedules at this

      21   time, the committee believes that under the

      22   conditions described above, work schedules and

                                                         364

       1   hours in excess of traditional 8 hours a day and

       2   40 hours a week are likely to be excessive,

       3   especially if the schedules are required for

       4   extended periods.

       5              "NACOSH advises that OSHA and NIOSH

       6   provide immediate information and advice to

       7   employers and employees regarding work hours and

       8   work schedules considered excessive.

       9              "NACOSH further advises the agencies to

      10   expedite the establishment of more formal

      11   guidelines and rules governing work hours and work

      12   schedules, including but not limited to the

      13   possible promulgation of an emergency temporary

      14   standard for Gulf oil spill recovery workers.

      15              "This should also include consideration

      16   of existing rest and rehabilitation guidelines and

      17   practices for such work and working environments."

      18              So that's the language that we had

      19   discussed before, and I would ask for a show of

      20   hands for those who approve that recommendation.

      21              That's a unanimous vote of those

      22   present and satisfies the requirement for a

                                                         365

       1   majority of a quorum membership -- a quorum

       2   attendance.

       3              That's recommendation number 1.

       4

       5        (RECOMMENDATION 1 ACCEPTED BY COMMITTEE)

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Recommendation 2 will

       7   be read by Peg Seminario --

       8              MS. SEMINARIO:  Yeah, just one minute.

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  -- who is finishing

      10   up on recommendation number 3, so we'll just take

      11   a deep breath, and wait for a second.

      12              (PROPOSED RECOMMENDATION 2)

      13              MS. SEMINARIO:  Okay.

      14   Recommendation 2.

      15              "The Gulf Coast response is requiring

      16   and will continue to require significant OSHA and

      17   NIOSH resources to ensure the protection of

      18   workers involved in the response.

      19              "President Obama has stated clearly and

      20   emphatically that BP will be required to pay for

      21   the response and cleanup.

      22              "To this end, NACOSH recommends that as

                                                         366

       1   soon as possible, OSHA and NIOSH prepare a

       2   comprehensive assessment of the resources, both

       3   monetary and staff time, that will be required to

       4   fully and effectively protect workers involved in

       5   the response.

       6              "This assessment should include the

       7   cost of agency resources, required outside

       8   experts, and immediate and long-term evaluation of

       9   the health impacts of this spill.

      10              "In addition, the agency should

      11   identify other activities that are being foregone

      12   as a result of the diversion of resources.

      13              "The agency should seek reimbursement

      14   and advanced funding for these activities from BP

      15   and any other responsible parties as soon as

      16   possible.

      17              "If there is difficulty in securing

      18   immediate payment, the committee recommends the

      19   agency seek supplemental funding to cover the

      20   costs of response activities so the agencies will

      21   have sufficient resources to undertake previously

      22   planned activities and programs."

                                                         367

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

       2              And again, I think we've had full

       3   discussion of this language, so I would ask for a

       4   show of hands for those who approve this

       5   recommendation.

       6              And again, your vote is unanimous among

       7   those present, satisfying the need for a majority

       8   vote of a quorum of the membership.

       9        (RECOMMENDATION 2 ACCEPTED BY COMMITTEE)

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  The third

      11   recommendation is also going to be read by Peg, as

      12   soon as she finishes, which is right now.

      13              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, I can read what I

      14   have, and then one last sentence here --

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  But it will be the

      16   transcript version that will be the formal version

      17   we're voting on.

      18              (PROPOSED RECOMMENDATION 3)

      19              MS. SEMINARIO:  "NACOSH recommends that

      20   OSHA and NIOSH identify, evaluate and characterize

      21   the major operations and jobs that are being

      22   conducted in the Gulf Coast oil response.

                                                         368

       1              "For each of these operations and jobs,

       2   this evaluation should include:

       3              "A description of the operation or job;

       4              "The number of workers involved in this

       5   work;

       6              "The potential hazards and exposures

       7   presented by this work, including the results of

       8   any exposure monitoring, potential health effects

       9   or injuries associated with such exposures;

      10              "And any reports of such occurrences,

      11   recommended control measures including

      12   recommendations for personal protective equipment,

      13   recommended training including the length of

      14   training and topics that should be covered.

      15              "In addition, NACOSH recommends that

      16   OSHA and NIOSH, in conjunction with NIEHS, design,

      17   implement and evaluate pilot projects to identify

      18   hazards and field test the best available control

      19   technology and methods for the protection of oil

      20   cleanup workers in the Gulf.

      21              "Advanced worker education and training

      22   should also be developed and implemented to

                                                         369

       1   utilize the control technology.

       2              "These projects may be done in

       3   conjunction with NIOSH's HHEs, if the utilization

       4   of control technology is the primary focus of the

       5   project.

       6              "These characterizations and

       7   recommendations should be readily accessible to

       8   employers, workers and occupational safety and

       9   health professionals, and should be updated as new

      10   information becomes available."

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Thank you.

      12              And once again, I will ask for a show

      13   of hands of those who are in favor of this

      14   recommendation.

      15              It's a unanimous approval by a full

      16   quorum of the committee present.

      17        (RECOMMENDATION 3 ACCEPTED BY COMMITTEE)

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So, we have agreement

      19   on three recommendations and a preamble to it.

      20              Let me -- I'll come back in a second.

      21              Let me just indicate to Dr. Michaels

      22   that we have, in addition to developing these

                                                         370

       1   recommendations, we've decided to establish a work

       2   group, and we have a statement of work for that

       3   work group, which I'm not going to read right now.

       4              It's not a formal recommendation, it's

       5   just a decision by us as to how we're going to

       6   proceed.

       7              And we will count on adequate staff

       8   support from NIOSH and OSHA as we get that work

       9   group underway.

      10              We've agreed not to establish

      11   additional work groups right now, because we felt

      12   that we didn't have sufficient time or information

      13   to make adequate decisions about that, but we've

      14   identified for staff several areas where we would

      15   like either presentations from OSHA and/or NIOSH,

      16   or provisional background materials prior to the

      17   next meeting.

      18              I think Bill had his hand up, and then

      19   Emory.

      20              And I think we want to do some

      21   concluding remarks and discussion.

      22              MR. BORWEGEN:  I have either -- it's

                                                         371

       1   either an addition to the final recommendation,

       2   or, this is a new recommendation.

       3              I just want to read it and see if folks

       4   agree to this.  It's a little bit more concrete,

       5   but I think it would benefit the workers in the

       6   Gulf.

       7              "NACOSH recommends that OSHA and NIOSH

       8   work with NIEHS to develop a written list of

       9   questions that workers should have answered by

      10   their employer pursuant to work duties, potential

      11   hazards and control to protect their safety and

      12   health.  This list shall be prepared in a language

      13   understood by the effected workers."

      14              And I make a motion either to discuss

      15   it further or to vote on the adoption.

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I'm -- well, I'm

      17   comfortable with the intent.  And I have no reason

      18   to think that after some adequate discussion, I

      19   would not agree.

      20              I am uneasy about moving forward with

      21   something like that with just a half an hour left

      22   in the meeting, and some other things to talk

                                                         372

       1   about.  But I'll entertain reactions from other

       2   committee members.

       3              DR. BUCHAN:  Maybe the work group can

       4   take that into consideration, and maybe move

       5   forward with that recommendation later.

       6              Is that satisfactory?

       7              MR. BORWEGEN:  Well, the next

       8   opportunity to vote won't be until September, so

       9   I'm a little hesitant to delay until then.

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That's true.

      11              Linda Rae?

      12              DR. MURRAY:  I have a question.  It's

      13   just a question.  It seems to me that -- even

      14   though it's very specific, but it seems to me that

      15   what you're talking about could easily be

      16   encompassed in -- I guess it was the third

      17   recommendation that we just passed.

      18              So I guess my question is, do you feel

      19   a need to be that specific?

      20              In which case, maybe we could insert

      21   some of that specificity in that third

      22   recommendation, which did talk about worker

                                                         373

       1   education.

       2              So, I mean, it's just a question to

       3   you, in terms of ...

       4              MR. BORWEGEN:  I guess I'm responding

       5   to Dr. Michael's earlier saying that, well, when

       6   we see a problem, we deal with it, understanding

       7   that OSHA has 30 inspectors in the Gulf.  I think

       8   that's what the number was.

       9              And it would be nice to have workers

      10   have a take-away piece of paper that would

      11   actually provide them with a checklist of the

      12   kinds of things that they should be concerned

      13   about, and it would be written in a language that

      14   they would understand.

      15              And I know it sounds, maybe, too

      16   specific, but I could -- you know, this is a

      17   very -- this would be a very valuable piece of

      18   paper for a worker that's doing this work.

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg Seminario?

      20              MS. SEMINARIO:  Could you read it

      21   again?  Because I wasn't -- I was still typing

      22   here, and so I wasn't quite clear of what

                                                         374

       1   specifically was being recommended.

       2              MR. BORWEGEN:  Okay.

       3              "NACOSH recommends that OSHA and NIOSH

       4   work with NIHS to develop a written list of

       5   questions that workers should have answered by

       6   their employer pursuant to work duties, potential

       7   hazards and control to protect their safety and

       8   health.  This list shall be prepared in a language

       9   understood by the effected workers."

      10              MS. SEMINARIO:  See, I don't

      11   understand -- I don't think it's clear what you

      12   just read there that that didn't -- doesn't say,

      13   to me, a checklist of information that you take

      14   away.

      15              And so I think it needs more

      16   development to be clear as to what the

      17   recommendation is, and some more discussion about

      18   it.

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I agree with you,

      20   Peg.

      21              And that's why I said that, while I'm

      22   generally sympathetic to what you intend here, I

                                                         375

       1   don't think we have time left to give it adequate

       2   consideration.

       3              And so --

       4              MR. BORWEGEN:  Okay.  Well, I'll

       5   withdraw the motion, then.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you, Bill.  I

       7   appreciate that.

       8              Emory Knowles?

       9              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.

      10              I would just like to volunteer to be on

      11   the work group.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Oh, okay.  We will

      13   add Emory Knowles to the list of those on the work

      14   group.

      15              DR. BUCHAN:  You got your chairman

      16   right there.

      17                       (LAUGHTER)

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you for

      19   reminding me that we have a work group, but we

      20   have not designated a chairperson.

      21              We have, I think, now, five members who

      22   have agreed to be on it, and I'm wondering if any

                                                         376

       1   of those who agreed to be on it -- six -- if any

       2   of them are interested in becoming chair.

       3              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  I'll do it.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Excellent.  Denise

       5   Pouget is chair for the subgroup.

       6              You get many points for that, and

       7   several of us owe you for that.

       8                       (LAUGHTER)

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And we will talk with

      10   staff about how to get the work group going.

      11   Thank you.

      12              We have a half an hour left.  And the

      13   agenda gives time for some final comments or

      14   discussion with the assistant secretary, who is

      15   here.

      16              DR. MICHAELS:  Thank you.  I think I

      17   arrived at a good moment.  It was a great pleasure

      18   to see that you had a productive afternoon, and

      19   you've made some very useful recommendations that

      20   we can address.  And I'm very pleased that you'll

      21   have a work group who will continue to work on

      22   these issues.

                                                         377

       1              Before going any further, I just want

       2   to take a moment and introduce Debbie Berkowitz.

       3   Those of you who don't know her, she's the chief

       4   of staff of OSHA, and is involved in virtually

       5   every one of our activities.  I think you should

       6   all meet, if you haven't yet.

       7              I have nothing specific to add, other

       8   than to say, I think this is a -- I would like to

       9   see this as the beginning of a long and close

      10   relationship with a very active National Advisory

      11   Committee.

      12              I think there's been a period where the

      13   advisory committee hasn't been called on by OSHA

      14   and NIOSH to provide advice, and we certainly

      15   intend to change that.  And I'm very pleased that

      16   you'll be working in between meetings.

      17              And I think we have a meeting,

      18   hopefully, planned in the relatively near future.

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  September 14th and

      20   15th, for those who have not heard, is at least

      21   the tentative date that we have set aside.

      22              DR. MICHAELS:  Which is terrific.

                                                         378

       1   That's, you know, that's three months from now,

       2   and I think that pace is a pace we'd like to

       3   see -- as I said earlier, we have a very ambitious

       4   agenda, there's much to do and there's no time to

       5   waste.

       6              So I know you've taken time out of all

       7   your very busy schedules to do this work, and I'm

       8   very grateful you've done that.

       9              So, I just want to, again, thank you.

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me indicate, on

      11   behalf of the committee, although I'm not going to

      12   stop other people from adding their own comments,

      13   that we really appreciate your interest in asking

      14   this committee for advice, and signaling to us

      15   your seriousness in taking under consideration

      16   what we propose.

      17              I also appreciate that you put on the

      18   table not just your most immediate, pressing

      19   concern with the Gulf, but you and Dr. Howard

      20   asked us to consider some other very important

      21   questions.

      22              And I can assure you that, although we

                                                         379

       1   spent a lot of time today talking about the Gulf

       2   oil spill activities, we're interested in learning

       3   more about, and helping you address some of the

       4   other issues that you gave to us.

       5              Some of those we -- many of them we

       6   found very intriguing and interesting, and it took

       7   a lot of discipline on our part not to go off on

       8   tangents with a lot of those, but to stick to what

       9   we had to accomplish today.

      10              Anybody else?

      11              Linda Rae Murray.

      12              DR. MURRAY:  I just have one

      13   housekeeping issue.

      14              Again, we haven't talked about how

      15   often we're going to meet.  But for me, at least,

      16   if we could have some proposed dates out, longer

      17   than three months, which is just, you know, edge

      18   of my clinical responsibilities, I could usually

      19   change something.  So it would help me if, after

      20   this meeting, staff would coordinate, or make a

      21   proposed schedule or something.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yeah, thank you.  We

                                                         380

       1   talked about that earlier and we almost forgot it.

       2              And I would like to ask Deborah if you

       3   could, in the interim, use computer technology to

       4   come up with some possible dates for a series of

       5   meetings, depending on the frequency that OSHA

       6   thinks is going to be useful, and to poll the

       7   members to start looking at calendars.

       8              MS. CRAWFORD:  Yes, I will do that.

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes, Roy Buchan.

      10              DR. BUCHAN:  Dr. Michaels, I want you

      11   to know that Bill mentioned earlier that we are at

      12   a historical point regarding this committee, and

      13   being able to be functional and supportive of OSHA

      14   and NIOSH.

      15              And he hit the nail on the head because

      16   of your openness, and I wanted to compliment him

      17   on saying that earlier.

      18              The other thing I wanted to mention,

      19   which is important to me, we all become academic

      20   parents.Cindy Coe has been mentioned several times

      21   today, and I want everyone to know she was my

      22   student.

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       1                       (LAUGHTER)

       2              DR. MICHAELS:  I will tell her later on

       3   today and tomorrow that we spoke, and that you

       4   were here, because I speak with her several times

       5   a day.

       6              DR. BUCHAN:  Okay.

       7              DR. MICHAELS:  And can I just add to

       8   that, Dr. Howard could not come back, so I think

       9   the other thing to note is NIOSH and OSHA have

      10   never had a close relationship.  We're certainly

      11   not, in any of our recent memory.  We don't go

      12   back to the very beginning of NIOSH and OSHA.

      13              But we're very pleased that this

      14   advisory committee advises both agencies, and if

      15   there are ways that you see, not just for each

      16   individual agency to work, but for us to work

      17   together as some of your resolutions raised, we

      18   are pleased to see that.

      19              You know, when we read the OSHA Act, we

      20   see that NIOSH and OSHA were intended to work

      21   closely together, and we plan to follow those

      22   directions.

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       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yeah, Peter Dooley.

       2              MR. DOOLEY:  Peter Dooley, LaborSafe.

       3              Just a question, if we're thinking

       4   about meeting every three months, is that some

       5   sense -- I guess we haven't really discussed that,

       6   or --

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  The committee is

       8   required to meet at least twice a year.

       9              MR. DOOLEY:  At least twice a year,

      10   right.  I guess, one question is, are there any

      11   alternative ways of meeting, other than in person,

      12   if budgetary restraints are an issue?

      13              And I raise the question -- I'll just

      14   say, the most effective committees that I'm

      15   involved in, you know, basically meet at "once a

      16   month" kind of thing, through electronic --

      17   through conference calls.  And now

      18   videoconferencing is becoming a much bigger --

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Good question.

      20              MR. DOOLEY:  I'm just throwing out that

      21   question, whether there's some way to continue

      22   with the discussion so that we don't get lost from

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       1   one meeting to another.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Good question.

       3              It's governed by FACA and all that, so

       4   I'll let Sarah Shortall answer that.

       5              MS. SHORTALL:  FACA does specifically

       6   allow meetings, either in whole or in part, can be

       7   done by other methods such as teleconference or

       8   webinars.  But that does not eliminate the

       9   requirements for that to be before the public, and

      10   transcript, et cetera.

      11              The problem is, on most

      12   teleconferences, there's a limited number of lines

      13   that you can get, so you're not going to be able

      14   to get everybody who's interested to be able to

      15   call in.

      16              So it means the agency has to make some

      17   space available, so people would be able to listen

      18   and participate that way.  Otherwise, the meeting

      19   is not open to the public, and that would violate,

      20   clearly, FACA.

      21              So there are specific considerations.

      22              The other thing I should also mention

                                                         384

       1   is, I don't know if you've been on some telephone

       2   conversations, but sometimes phones cut out, and

       3   it does make it difficult for the transcriptionist

       4   to get a full and accurate -- thing.

       5              So yes, it's allowable, and there are

       6   issues that are involved, the most important one

       7   being you have to make it available to the public.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  So it's

       9   possible, but it's not easy.

      10              A related question, I think the answer

      11   to this is yes, but I want to check.

      12              Is it permissible for us to hold our

      13   meetings in other locations, other parts of the

      14   country?

      15              DR. MICHAELS:  Sarah can answer that

      16   question.

      17              MS. SHORTALL:  Well, it's whatever OSHA

      18   would be willing to do.  They are the ones that

      19   create your budget.  I don't -- I mean, the new

      20   charter has to come out in October, and if the

      21   agency is interested, they will have to budget

      22   that as part of their charter.

                                                         385

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  You're right.  I was

       2   only asking if it was legal permissible.

       3              MS. SHORTALL:  It is.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And it is.

       5              Bill Borwegen.

       6              MR. BORWEGEN:  And what is the

       7   frequency -- it seems like ACCOSH is very active.

       8   What is their frequency of meeting?  Do they only

       9   meet once every six months or --

      10              MS. SHORTALL:  No.  Well, it depends.

      11   I mean, sometimes it does slip.  They usually meet

      12   three to four times per year.  But there have been

      13   other years where they've met once, and not at

      14   all.

      15              MR. BORWEGEN:  So I'm a little

      16   confused.  Does the committee decide how

      17   frequently they meet, or does OSHA decide how

      18   frequently we meet?

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  It will be a

      20   combination.  It will be a decision made in

      21   conversation with the department.

      22              And I reiterate what I said earlier:

                                                         386

       1   There's a balance between what the committee

       2   members would like, and what OSHA is capable of

       3   supporting, and what OSHA would like.

       4              MS. SHORTALL:  Only the designated

       5   federal official can call a meeting.  So, unless

       6   OSHA agrees, there is no meeting.

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I will ask staff -- I

       8   will ask Deborah to check calendars for what would

       9   be quarterly meetings, although we may not have

      10   such.  But let's not lose the opportunity by not

      11   checking our calendars.

      12              Susan Randolph.

      13              MS. RANDOLPH:  Susan Randolph.  I know

      14   in the past, when the committee has tried to meet,

      15   sometimes it depends on committee member

      16   appointments, and when those expire, and being

      17   able to have sufficient people for a quorum.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  As long as we have a

      19   quorum, we can meet.  And at some times in the

      20   past, membership has determined that.

      21   Appointments have -- let me do this.

      22              Since we only have a little bit less

                                                         387

       1   than 20 minutes left, I think that Sarah had one

       2   other administrative detail to take care of, and I

       3   want to make sure that we do that before we

       4   adjourn.

       5              MS. SHORTALL:  It's real easy, but

       6   OSHA -- based on what ACCOSH does, they allow

       7   people to remain on the committee until a person

       8   is appointed in their place, so they never have to

       9   worry about the quorum.  And I believe that is

      10   going to be an item that NACOSH plans to add to

      11   their charter.  So that would help solve the

      12   problem.

      13              I have a number of meeting exhibits

      14   that I would like to add into the record at this

      15   time.

      16       (EXHIBITS ATTACHED TO RECORD AS FOLLOWS:)

      17              MS. SHORTALL:  Meeting Exhibit 1, the

      18   agenda for the June 8, 2010 NACOSH meeting.

      19              This is Exhibit 2, the NACOSH

      20   membership roster as of June 8th, 2010.

      21              As Exhibit 3, the Federal Advisory

      22   Committee Act.

                                                         388

       1              As Exhibit 4, the NACOSH charter filed

       2   on October 8th, 2008.

       3              As Exhibit 5, 29 CFR1912(a) OSHA

       4   regulations governing NACOSH.

       5              As Exhibit 6, DOL ethics rules for

       6   non-federal employees.

       7              As Exhibit 7, reference documents on

       8   OSHA's response to oil spill and cleanup

       9   operations.

      10              And as Exhibit 8, protection of workers

      11   involved in oil spill recovery efforts in the Gulf

      12   work group charge.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Thank you.  I

      14   would just indicate -- and I have one thing to say

      15   in conclusion.

      16              But Dr. Michaels, any final comments?

      17              I would just indicate in conclusion, or

      18   offer my thanks to the committee for what I think

      19   was an excellent and productive meeting.  It is a,

      20   really, very promising start for this committee's

      21   activity.

      22              And I use the word "start" advisedly.

                                                         389

       1   I know that ACCOSH has been in existence for many

       2   years.  This is the start of ACCOSH under the new

       3   administration, and I think we've got a good

       4   start.  And I look forward to seeing many of you,

       5   if not all of you again.

       6              And I almost concluded without offering

       7   thanks to a couple of the OSHA staff, who have

       8   been critical to organizing this meeting

       9   successfully.

      10              In addition to Deborah Crawford and

      11   Sarah Shortall, who are assigned to this, we need

      12   to extend our thanks to Veneta Chatmon and Frances

      13   Duran and others.

      14              Who else is in the room right now?

      15              There may be other names -- Kimberly

      16   Tucker.

      17              Okay.  This meeting of NACOSH is

      18   adjourned.

      19             (MEETING ADJOURNED ON TUESDAY,

      20              JUNE 8, 2010, AT 4:14 P.M.)

      21                         * * *

      22