18 You did hear the statements from the OEM where he 19 asked them about the plug in hybrids?

20 MR. ADDISON: And I've had conversations with 21 your staff about the staff proposal and what effect that 22 would have on plug in hybrids and some concerns.

23 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you.

24 Henry Hogo, and then Carl Johnson. And then 25 we'll probably be  well maybe one more and then we'll PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 387 1 take a break.

2 MR. HOGO: Good evening, Dr. Lloyd and members of 3 the Board. Again, Henry Hogo from the South Coast AQMD.

4 We have submitted written comments. What I wanted to do 5 is talk about the table that we provided in the written 6 comments that shows an alternative to the staff proposal.

7 Again, in there, we believe in numbers also. And 8 as your board knows, the latest draft air quality 9 management plan for the South Coast indicates that there's 10 significant shortfalls in needed emission reductions in 11 order to attain the federal air quality standards.

12 As such the South Coast AQMD staff supports a 13 strong zero emission vehicle regulation that provides the 14 greatest air quality benefits as well as accelerate the 15 advancement of the zero and near zero vehicle 16 technologies.

17 And what I wanted to do was talk about the table 18 that we have provided in the written comment. And what 19 the AQMD staff is proposing is that and we urge your board 20 to retain the 2001 ZEV requirement of two percent adjusted 21 for the time period beginning at 2008.

22 In the interim the next five years, we're 23 proposing that you keep the 250 fuel cell or Type 3 24 vehicle production requirement. In addition, we would 25 recommend that you put in a 2000 Type 2 full function PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 388 1 battery EV over the next five years.

2 You heard a lot of testimony today about the 3 satisfaction and performance of the current technology.

4 We believe that technology can move forward, and we would 5 recommend that over a substitution of the fuel cell 6 vehicles, because we really need the fuel cell vehicles 7 out there visible to the public during this timeframe.

8 In addition, we are  to strengthen this 9 regulation, the staff is proposing that the AT PZEV 10 numbers become a requirement. And what you do here is 11 then you would reduce the PZEV portion of the regulation 12 as time goes on.

13 So this will promote the current technologies 14 that near term technologies such as plugs ins and hybrids.

15 And relative to plug ins, we strongly believe that 16 plug ins have an important role in reaching the ZEV 17 mandates.

18 As such, the AQMD staff is proposing that for 19 plug ins and any other technologies in the silver standard 20 that meet the minimum zero emission range credit, for all 21 pollutants at 1.25 be considered as part of the gold 22 standard for a short period of time.

23 We're talking maybe out to the year 2010. That 24 would promote that technology.

25 I wanted to conclude with just two points, and PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 389 1 that is that relative to your deliberations today, and 2 most likely tomorrow, that any consideration of mobile to 3 stationary crediting, the AQMD staff really opposes that 4 proposal.

5 We believe that such an action would only serve 6 to impede the development of fuel cell vehicle 7 technologies. And lastly, the South Coast AQMD staff 8 opposes any provision for ZEV credits of zero emission 9 vehicles, sold outside of California.

10 It really sends a wrong message relative to 11 California's interest in fuel cell technology 12 demonstration. And if such a provision is allowed, it 13 would undermine California's effort to bring federal 14 incentive funding to California.

15 And that concludes my comments.

16 Thank you.

17 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you, Henry.

18 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: May staff direct 19 a question to South Coast?

20 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Yes.

21 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: We're trying to 22 calculate the cumulative numbers for the vehicles. And 23 Henry in the chart in your letter are those credits or 24 cars, and are they fuel cell car Equivalents or are they 25 BEVs?

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 390 1 MR. HOGO: We took the table that was in the 2 staff report, page 25, and equated it across. So you have 3 the 2000 regulation, this is a scenario that your staff 4 proposed with the 2001 regulations, and the March 2003 5 revised staff proposal. And we took those numbers and put 6 them across to the South Coast proposal. So really 7 they're based on vehicles I believe.

8 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: Just help the 9 Board with the math. The two proposals you hear 10 previously from CalETC and Union of Concerned Scientists 11 sum up to roughly 30,000 by the end of 2014. The South 12 Coast proposal sums up to 80,518 in the same period.

13 And the three tiers are 4,583, 21,128, and 14 54,807. And again the cumulative total 80,518.

15 MR. HOGO: They are definitely more stringent 16 than the proposal, but we believe we need this yard stick 17 in order to get the technology moving.

18 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: Dr. Burke, I was 19 adding them in the intervals of time that the other 20 proposals were recommended ' 05 through ' 08, ' 09 through 21 2011 and 2012 through 1214. And then I summed it for the 22 cumulative total.

23 BOARD MEMBER BURKE: Got it.

24 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thanks, Henry.

25 Carlo Johnson.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 391 1 And then I think we  Carl and then we

2 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you, Dr. Lloyd.

3 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Welcome.

4 MR. JOHNSON: Good to see you once again. We 5 appreciate the opportunity.

6 I am Carl Johnson. I'm Deputy Commissioner for 7 Air and Waste Management with the New York State 8 Department of Environmental Conservation here today again 9 to build on our very successful relationship over the 10 years with the Board and the staff. And we wish to 11 continue that, and we really appreciate this opportunity 12 today.

13 I will be belief. You have our written comments.

14 I really will just speak to two points that we think are 15 worthy of highlighting this evening. One is the traveling 16 provision. And we very much support the traveling 17 provision in the sense that the number gives certainty to 18 everyone as to what we're talking about in the out years.

19 If 250 is the number, then 250 is the number. And we 20 think that that's a good way to provide that certainty to 21 the industry.

22 However, we are concerned that the traveling 23 provision that credits those vehicles as currently written 24 does not sum sunset  or should subset. As currently 25 written this provision carries forward after the end of PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 392 1 the optional program.

2 So that in 2009 and the subsequent timeframe, a 3 Type 3 ZEV sold in New York would be creditable against 4 the California requirements. In terms of the northeastern 5 states really what that would mean is that the credit 6 structure would seriously negatively impact the placement 7 of AT PZEVs as required in the north east, that you would 8 get so much credit for the fuel cell vehicles that there 9 would be no need, desire or inclination to place AT PZEVs 10 and we would be out of that market. So we have concerns 11 with regard to that and think that a sunset or a phase out 12 of that would be appropriate.

13 We also share the general sentiment, I think,

14 with regard to the gold standard, that there should be a 15 standard out there. We don't take issue with the present 16 expectation that Type 3 ZEVs will not be ready for 17 commercialization before 2009. We don't object. In fact,

18 we would support the independent expert panel review 19 process.

20 But we are concerned that the absence of 21 regulatory requirements for the Type 3 ZEVs could have a 22 negative impact on the development of the technology. As 23 the Board has evaluated ZEV programs in the past, it has 24 recognized that continued regulatory requirements were 25 necessary to promote the continual investment.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 393 1 The same is true here. Clearly, a second 2 generation of fuel cell vehicle demonstration will be 3 needed before the technology is fully commercially viable.

4 But we are concerned that being silent, at this point,

5 with regard to the standard after' 09 sends the signal that 6 the program ends in ' 09.

7 I cannot tell that we know what the number is.

8 And I think it would take more work for us to come to a 9 consensus as to what that might be. But we do think that 10 whatever it is, it's better to commit to that number, even 11 if that number is to be determined later as was suggested,

12 and to develop that number with the recognition that other 13 states are following your lead. That's really the extent 14 of what I have to tell you now.

15 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you very much. Thank 16 you for the written statement.

17 Thank you for that. Good to work with you again.

18 Thank you.

19 Now, we're due to have a break, although I have 20 three people here who said that they have to leave and if 21 they take one minute a piece, I'll take them. And that 22 would be Paul Scott, Mike Kane and Zan Dubin Scott.

23 So if they can do that in one minute rather than 24  if they have to leave. I know it's a bit of an 25 imposition, but the court reporter is ready to drop.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 394 1 MR. SCOTT: Well, one minute throws. I'm Paul 2 Scott. Thank you very much.

3 One minute throws my report out, but I'll take it 4 anyway.

5 We bought our RAV4. We showed it to all of our 6 friends. We had 80 people over to our house. And we 7 drove them around. We had 15 EVs over there. We had a 8 big EV test drive party. Everybody loved this car.

9 So for the industry to tell you there is no 10 market, just doesn't ring true to us. We talk to people 11 every day when we drive around in our car. They all love 12 it. They all want one. So I just want to make the point 13 that, you know, we really don't want you to eliminate BEVs 14 batter electric vehicles from the program.

15 We feel like these cars have a huge market 16 nationwide, certainly up and down the west coast. The 17 people that I've dealt with throughout my life would love 18 to have one of these cars. So just to end it quickly,

19 please maintain some sort of mandate that would include 20 battery electric vehicles. That's all.

21 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you very much.

22 BOARD MEMBER RIORDAN: Mr. Chairman.

23 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Yes. A Question.

24 BOARD MEMBER RIORDAN: Not a question. I just 25 was interested in his name, I'm sorry.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 395 1 MR. SCOTT: Paul Scott.

2 MR. KANE: Chairman, Lloyd, I could use a little 3 bit more than three minutes. If you can accommodate me 4 right after the break, I'll let Zan go and then speak 5 right after the break.

6 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Yes, okay.

7 MS. SCOTT: I'm Zan Dubin Scott. I'm from LA.

8 I'm married to Paul Scott. And we have the EV. And 9 first, I'm going to be nervous here, but I want to thank 10 the Board and the staff for helping bring ZEVs to the 11 road. I've rewritten my statement today about six times.

12 This is much more complicated than I thought. I 13 walked in expecting for nothing less than sustained 14 competitive volume production of BEVs through car company 15 requirements. Now, I've feared that my  that request my 16 dismissed out of hand as too simplistic and just too much.

17 But I do know three things. I have never seen an 18 add for a RAV4. I see tons of adds during prime time TV 19 for all kinds of cars, and I frankly don't think that the 20 car companies have given it a college try. We tell people 21 constantly people  they stop me on the street. They say 22 what is that car? Their faces light up. I tell them 23 about it. I say you can't get them. And their faces 24 fall. I can feel it out there that people want these 25 cars.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 396 1 And the desire and the needs, I know, of people 2 like  consumers like me must be given equal 3 consideration to the needs and the desires of the car 4 companies. Auto exhaust kills 12,000 people a year. Who 5 has more at stake here? Who has more to lose. I walked 6 through bladder cancer with a family member last year.

7 And I think people like me and other consumers have a lot 8 to lose. I urge the Board to listen to us too.

9 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you very much, Zan.

10 We will take a break now till  well for half an 11 hour.

12 Okay. We're not going to break for half an hour.

13 We're going to break for 15 minutes.

14 So we'll go 15 minutes till 7: 20, and then we'll 15 reassemble.

16 ( Thereupon a dinner break was taken.)

17 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: If we can just get the EO 18 we're on. I call the Executive Officer. Oh there she is.

19 I didn't see you there.

20 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: I was just 21 chatting with a member of the public.

22 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: We'll recommence. And I 23 promised we would give Mike Kane a chance. I would just 24 like to lay out the landscape of where we're likely to go.

25 We're expecting to go another one and a half to two hours PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 397 1 this evening. Then adjourn for the evening. And then 2 recommence at 8: 30 in the morning. So we will not be 3 taking a vote tonight.

4 So those of you who what to stay, feel free.

5 Those of you who you who don't, who would like to 6 coordinate, but we'll be back at 8: 30 in the morning.

7 Well, that's true.

8 But an incentive I guess  instead of your  I 9 guess I could if we have another 45 people. We understand 10 there's going to be reinforcements tomorrow. So we don't 11 know that this list is going to be limited, because there 12 are other people coming into town. So clearly the more we 13 can get through tonight, the better off we're going to be 14 tomorrow.

15 But clearly that's in your hands. As I said 16 before, if there's stuff that is repetitive, it would 17 really help us and help everyone, if you just could keep 18 it short. With that let's continue.

19 ( Thereupon an overhead presentation was 20 Presented as follows.)

21 MR. KANE: Chairman Lloyd and Board Members, my 22 name is Mike Kane. I'm a resident of Newport Beach,

23 California. I'm an electric vehicle driver, and very much 24 a novice, I guess, at public policy and advocacy here, so 25 bear with me.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 398 1 If you're working off of hardcopies, I'm going to 2 skip over a bunch of the charts in the beginning, so I'll 3 do that right now.

4  o0o

5 MR. KANE: I think going straight for the jugular 6 here, what I'm hearing from the auto companies and what 7 I've been hearing in the staff report that I read through 8 here recently is that really we need to effectively 9 sacrifice investments in battery electric vehicles so that 10 we can fund the potential promise of fuel cells in the 11 future.

12 I think you've heard a lot of reasons today why 13 that may not be the best course of action. I want to take 14 a slightly different stab at it. I drive emissions free 15 today. I do that using a battery electric vehicle. And 16 I'll walk you through very briefly how I do that.

17 This is the chart that's the fist one has a lot 18 of pictures on it.

19 If I had a, you know, theoretical 75 mile daily 20 round trip commute. I could do that with a battery 21 electric vehicle. I would need about 25 kilowatt hours of 22 energy a day to do that.

23 Battery electric vehicles are out there they'll 24 do that today.

25  o0o

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 399 1 MR. KANE: I picked the Honda EV Plus. I need 2 the car. I need a charger. I need about 450 square feet 3 of solar panels on my home roof and that's roughly the 4 system that I have on my own home today.

5 If I was to do that with a battery electric or 6 with a hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicle, I'd need about 7 one and a half kilograms of hydrogen to do that.

8 I've done the research on how much energy is 9 required to do that. It looks like you need about 90 10 kilowatt hours to produce that much hydrogen.

11  o0o

12 MR. KANE: So if I look at that as a system and I 13 say I need a hydrogen fuel cell car, I need a hydrogen 14 generator. This is the one from Stewart Energy, I'm sure 15 you've seen at the fuel cell partnership, and I need about 16 1,100 square feet of roof space to do that.

17 Now, assuming I could get 1,100 square feet of 18 roof space worth of solar panels, that's a dubious 19 proposition on most homes in California. You could take 20 the hydrogen fuel cell car out of the equation all 21 together and the system would be more expensive than the 22 system for a battery electric vehicle.

23 So even if the fuel cell car was free, it would 24 cost know me more to put this system together than it 25 would with a battery electric vehicle. I think you can PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 400 1 use that as an example of how could scale this up into a 2 bigger system Where the hydrogen is produced in a big 3 hydrogen barn.

4  o0o

5 MR. KANE: I think you've all seen this ad, this 6 was put up by Toyota on a number of billboards around the 7 State and bus kiosks. I want to ask the question I guess 8 is this a marketing program?

9 I can speak with some authority here. I've been 10 a marketer in the hitech field for over 20 years. I've 11 been personally very involved in bringing a number of new 12 technologies from R& D to multi billion dollar markets.

13 The way you do that isn't by advertising it and expecting 14 people to come buy them. You have to build those markets.

15 You don't find them.

16 You go out. You work with the early adopters.

17 You find out why people are interested. You build case 18 studies around that. And you sell these things one at a 19 time. And the market builds on itself. I'd ask you to 20 think about the first time you bought a home fax machine 21 or personal computer. You didn't do it because you saw an 22 advertisement for a technology that you never heard about 23 before. You bought one because your neighbor had one.

24 You saw them using because you had one at work and you 25 started thinking, you know, gee, I could really make this PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 401 1 work at home.

2 These vehicles have to be out there. People have 3 to see them on the streets and get comfortable with the 4 fact that they can use them in their day to day life and 5 they're going to provide them utility.

6 In my field of work we call this kind of 7 marketing field of dreams marketing. And if you remember 8 the movie, the terms was, " If you build it, they will 9 come."

10 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: And we gave you three 11 minutes. That's it.

12 MR. KANE: Quickly what happened, you know, when 13 respondent's came in, they ended up at a Toyota dealer and 14 that Toyota dealer couldn't sell them the car, so they 15 sold them what they could sell them, which was a gas 16 vehicle. It was very hard to get to someone in Toyota who 17 could actually sell you a car and then you had a long wait 18 to get one.

19  o0o

20 MR. KANE: What I'm asking the Board to do is to 21 create strong regulations and stick with them. This 22 market needs consistency. People aren't going to invest 23 in the technologies necessary. These small companies 24 aren't going to be there if there's that much regulatory 25 uncertainty.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 402 1 What I'm asking the Board to do specifically is 2 reject the current staff proposal and reaffirm the 2001 3 program amendments and really do it only with what's 4 necessary to make the program enforceable.

5  o0o

6 MR. KANE: Step two is to look at the things that 7 I believe are important a look at. That's the credit glut 8 issue I think you're heard about. Cars going off of lease 9 and leaving the state. We need to get cars out there that 10 stay on the road for the balance of their life.

11 And we need to look at incentivizing Fuel cells,

12 but not at the expense of battery electric vehicles that 13 are here today, and incentivize plug in HEVs.

14 And lastly there's a lot of drivers out there 15 that would love to be involved and demand creation 16 programs. We'd love to volunteer our time to the Board,

17 to the AQMDs. We'd be interested in pursuing that if the 18 cars are still there.

19 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you.

20 We have Christine Kirby, Amanda Flores and Tim 21 Hastrup.

22 Welcome from Massachusetts.

23 MS. KIRBY: Thank you. Good evening, Mr.

24 Chairman and Members of the Board. Thank you for the 25 opportunity to testify this evening.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 403 1 My name is Christine Kirby and I manage the 2 Low Emission Vehicle Program for the Commonwealth of 3 Massachusetts.

4 We've worked with the Air Resources Board for 5 many years as well as the staff and we look forward to 6 working with you in the future. I did submit written 7 comments so I want to keep my comments very brief and 8 focus on the travel issue.

9 Section 177 of the Clean Air Act allows states 10 outside of California to adopt the California LEV program.

11 The march 5th proposal includes a provision where if 12 manufacturers place Type 3 ZEVs in any LEV State, the 13 credits could be used to count towards the California ZEV 14 requirement.

15 Massachusetts recognizes that an important goal 16 of the program is to focus on fuel cell research and the 17 need to target this research. However, we believe that if 18 successful, fuel cells will be deployed not only in 19 California but in other states as well.

20 Ultimately, the goal of the program is to deliver 21 long term air quality benefits. And clearly it's crucial 22 to expand the market for zero emission vehicles beyond 23 California to move towards true commercialization.

24 Therefore, we suggest that the regulations 25 include a specific provision to sunset the pilot program PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 404 1 phase of the alternative compliance strategy and 2 specifically section 1960( d)( 5)( c).

3 We also suggest that the ARB include a provision 4 in the regulations to allow for some number of fuel cells 5 to be placed in states outside of California. And we 6 don't think that the regulations are clear on that point.

7 We've included some suggested language that 8 will  well it's in my written comments for that section.

9 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you very much.

10 Staff any comment on that?

11 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: Our attorney, Tom 12 Jennings, is looking at this travel issue because of the 13 question New York raised and then also how it my apply to 14 Massachusetts. And I was just asking Tom  a piece of 15 the language I don't understand. So we'll get back to you 16 tomorrow.

17 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Maybe tomorrow morning.

18 That's fine. Yes.

19 MR. FLORES: Good evening, Chairman and Board.

20 It's my pleasure to be here and I thank you for the 21 opportunity to come and present a diversity of 22 perspective.

23 My name is Armando Flores and I'm attorney from 24 Modesto. I'm here on behalf of the Stanislaus County 25 Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, the Latino Political Action PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 405 1 Committee of the Central valley, and the Latino Community 2 Roundtable of Modesto.

3 And I'm here to talk a little bit more about 4 demographic numbers as opposed to hitech numbers. And 5 there are several points I want to make, and I'll be 6 brief.

7 Point number 1, from a business perspective, I 8 would like to inform you that whereas California's 9 business economy is suffering a down turn, the Hispanic 10 busy economy is the fastest growing segment and most 11 viable element of California's business. And we want to 12 continue to see that trend increase and grown in 13 pollution. And the central valley, in particular, will 14 diminish that.

15 Point number 2, from a Latino health perspective 16 we would like this Board and staff to think about the 17 outdoor labor workforce, particularly in the central 18 valley. Think about agricultural workers, construction 19 workers, outdoor landscapers, lawn and maintenance 20 workers, landfill workers. That workforce is 21 predominantly Hispanic. And what we are concerned about 22 is that air pollution can and will have a disproportionate 23 impact on this community. And we ask you to think about 24 that and analyze that among the other elements of your 25 discourse and analysis.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 406 1 So our conclusion, our position is that we hope 2 and encourage you to be forceful and be considerate and be 3 inclusive in your analysis. We urge you to implement 4 stronger not less stringent air pollution regulations from 5 the health perspective from the Latino perspective.

6 Thank you.

7 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you very much.

8 Robert Gibney, Daniel McCarthy, Tim Hastrup.

9 MR. HASTRUP: Yes, good evening. I'm Tim 10 Hastrup. I'm up next I think.

11 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: That's fine. We'll take you 12 next. I had some others, but that's fine.

13 No, there was some confusion. Carry on.

14 ( Thereupon an overhead presentation was 15 Presented as follows.)

16 MR. HASTRUP: Okay. Well, I wanted to share,

17 we're still very much happy to be a ZEV family. I think 18 Toyota said it very nicely when they talked about a 19 successful launch. We just started this ZEV program and 20 we'd like to see it continue on.

21  o0o

22 MR. HASTRUP: And I'm kind of a simple guy. I 23 manage a bunch of R& D engineers, and we like to set the 24 goal for a

25 BOARD MEMBER HUGH FRIEDMAN: Excuse me, Mr.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 407 1 Hastrup, could you put that mic up higher.

2 MR. HASTRUP: I thought it was pretty high. Oh,

3 that's better.

4 BOARD MEMBER HUGH FRIEDMAN: That's better.

5 Thank you.

6 MR. HASTRUP:  like to set the goal for them of 7 what to do. And I have a problem when I read the ZEV 8 regulations. They were pretty good. I had trouble 9 sleeping the other night. I read them. I fell asleep 10 pretty quickly because they were so complex. And my 11 recommendation would be, boy, could we look at maybe 12 making them a little bit simpler, so maybe the gaming 13 wouldn't be quite as prevalent.

14 For example, at the gold level, pure ZEVs say 50 15 mile range, greater than 55 top speed, single source 16 energy. I'd also like to see some significant ZEV vehicle 17 in the gold standard. Perhaps some kind of plug in 18 hybrid, maybe some dual source. I just wonder if we maybe 19 should step back. It seems to become more and more 20 complicated with each review, and it's becoming very very 21 difficult to get a feel for where the regulations are.

22 I'm unfortunately not an expert and don't have 23 that much expertise here. But it just seems coming in 24 from the outside, wow, this is really complex. And it's 25 difficult to get a feeling for what's going on.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 408 1 A couple of other suggestions. The MOA vehicles,

2 they work. They're great. Please do everything that we 3 could to deep those on the road. And if it means giving 4 folks credit for updating them and getting new credits.

5 Hey, that's okay. It gets ZEVs, keep ZEVs on the roads.

6 And I'd also like to recommend that cars when they're 7 available be available for purchase or lease no more of 8 these leases without the purchase option.

9 Thank you very much. I appreciate the time.

10 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you very much. Robert 11 Gibney, Daniel Mccarthy.

12 Seems to me, Chuck, given our budget shortage 13 maybe you can put this on tape and use for people who have 14 insomnia, so there would be

15 ( Laughter.)

16 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Robert Gibney, Daniel 17 McCarthy and Mike Thompson.

18 MR. GIBNEY: Good evening, Mr. Chairman, Board of 19 Directors. Thank you for taking the time to be today.

20 This is a terrific forum. And hopefully you'll hear 21 something today that shows that there is in fact a battery 22 technology that is revolutionary and is something that's a 23 breakthrough to the industry and it's called Lithium Metal 24 Polymer technology.

25 ( Thereupon an overhead presentation was PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 409 1 Presented as follows.)

2 MR. GIBNEY: My name is Robert Gibney and I'm 3 with Avestor, Chief Marketing Officer.

4  o0o

5 MR. GIBNEY: Today I'd like to tell you a little 6 bit about the company. It's basically a joint venture 7 between Hydro Quebec and Kermigie Corporation in the 8 United States. Almost $ 50 billion in assets behind these 9 two companies. They've joined together to develop this 10 new batter technology. And it's here. It's now. It is a 11 reality.

12 In fact, this battery that's shown on the screen 13 is now in production out of Quebec starting this month.

14  o0o

15 MR. GIBNEY: This is truly a revolutionary 16 battery design, in that it is a thin film lithium based 17 polymer technology that is absolutely the best battery on 18 the market today.

19 It has the highest energy density of any battery 20 on the market. It is now commercial. And we're now 21 taking it out to both the telecommunications industries 22 and others.

23  o0o

24 MR. GIBNEY: This production facility on the 25 screen here shows that we are actually in production. So PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 410 1 instead of coming up here and making promises that one day 2 we'll have a product for you, it is, in fact, here.

3  o0o

4 MR. GIBNEY: And our plans moving forward are to 5 produce battery packs for electric utilities, and the 6 automotive industry. In 2005, we intend to produce an EV 7 pack for a French consortium with Hydro Quebec as a 8 partner.

9  o0o

10 MR. GIBNEY: In fact, we announced last month 11 that this battery pack will be available, will provide the 12 first prototype battery back of this SVE project in 13 November of this year.

14  o0o

15 MR. GIBNEY: We intend to continue to invest in 16 this part of the business. We think the EV market is 17 prime. And, in fact, the company is prepared to invest 18 well over $ 100 million in the production of batteries for 19 the automotive Industry in the next few years.

20  o0o

21 MR. GIBNEY: In fact, we already have engineering 22 work under way to build a production facility in the 23 southwest western United States. As you can see here,

24 it's not a small facility. We have grand plans to produce 25 large quantities of batteries both EV, HEV as well as the PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 411 1 telecommunications and utility industries.

2 This is a reality. Both partners are fully 3 committed to this project.

4  o0o

5 MR. GIBNEY: The conclusion of my presentation,

6 I'm trying to keep this as short as possible, basically is 7 that this is a reality. This technology is here. The 8 other battery manufacturers as well as Avestor are 9 contemplating investing large amounts of dollars to meet 10 the requirements set out by CARB.

11 If you continue to weaken the regulations, we may 12 be hesitant to invest in advanced battery technologies in 13 the future. We respectfully request that CARB reject any 14 major modifications to its ZEV mandates.

15 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you very much for 16 coming.

17 Daniel McCarthy. After that, if Mr. Serge Roy is 18 he here too. Are you going to  okay, so after that 19 maybe you can comment on the same thing.

20 MR. McCARTHY: Good evening. I'm Dan McCarthy 21 I'm Chief Operating Officer of Evercel Incorporated from 22 Bingham Mass. And we are manufacturers of advanced nickel 23 zinc batteries. So I'll be following on the same line as 24 some previous battery manufacturers.

25 But I'm here to speak on one issue. And that's PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 412 1 the claim that ZEV vehicles are hindered by the lack of 2 advancement in battery technologies.

3 Evercel in the last two years spending $ 50 4 million on development of the battery, has cut the cost 5 per kilowatt hour from $ 900 down to $ 300. And these 6 nickel zinc batteries are currently in production and 7 currently commercially available for sale at a price of 8 $ 300 per kilowatt hour.

9 When Dr. Anderman gave his evaluation, of nickel 10 zinc battery technology  of battery technologies, he set 11 as a goal in the future for nickel metal hydride a goal of 12 $ 9,000 for a 30 kilowatt hour battery pack. We currently 13 sell a 32 kilowatt hour battery pack for $ 9,000. It is 14 currently running in electric vehicles. It is currently 15 being evaluated at your CARB facility in El Monte,

16 California. And it is also being evaluated by Southern 17 California Edison.

18 This battery has been available since late 2002.

19 And previously our company has focused on the marine 20 market. But this battery is available and I found it 21 surprising that Dr. Anderman and this technology review 22 did not even address the subject of nickel zinc battery 23 technology.

24 Those are my only comments.

25 Thank you.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 413 1 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you very much.

2 Serge Roy and then Mike Thompson, Marilyn Bardet.

3 ( Thereupon an overhead presentation was 4 Presented as follows.)

5 MR. ROY: Good evening, Mr. Chairman and Board 6 Members. I would like to thank you for your patience and 7 endurance in allowing me to share my concerns and some 8 facts about EVs.

9  o0o

10 MR. ROY: Hydro Quebec is one of the largest 11 electric utility. But what's more important is we're 12 supplying about six percent of the renewable energy in the 13 world right now, because of our hydro facilities.

14 But Hydro Quebec has gone farther than just 15 energy supply. We've been active in helping the 16 development of clean energy technologies. And with 17 Hydro Quebec Capitech venture capitals subsidiary of 18 Hydro Quebec, we have invested or are managing an 19 investment of more 270 million in clean energy 20 technologies, of which 174 million are enabling 21 technologies for all types of EV, battery, hybrid and fuel 22 cell EV.

23 Of course, the Avestor lithium metal polymer 24 battery and TM4 electric drive train are the most 25 important investment that we've made.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 414 1 And as Robert Gibney just mentioned SV is a 2 group, a French group of large companies, who actually 3 manufacturer half of the battery EVs on the road today in 4 the world, 7,000 battery EVs for Citroen have chosen our 5 components Avestor lithium metal polymer battery as well 6 as CM4 electric drive train to power their battery EV in 7 the development stage.

8 I must mention that according to the 9 classification that you have, this is a Type 2 full 10 function battery EV, four door, four seats, more than 100 11 miles range, with a range extender that can have the car 12 go for 200 miles.

13 The plan is for commercialization of that vehicle 14 in late 2005, 2006 for Europe and North America.

15  o0o

16 MR. ROY: Hydro Quebec with its partner has been 17 committed for the last 20 years to deliver the key 18 technologies for battery EV, the battery. As seen on past 19 event and present events we still are maintaining our

20 we are maintaining our course that we set in 1979.

21 We have to commit before the end of 2003 large 22 sums of money to produce battery EVs and also to get cars 23 on the market.

24 I must emphasize that a further deterioration of 25 the ZEV goal standard as proposed in the staff report,

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 415 1 will send a strong signal to the public to key battery EV 2 component manufacturer like Avestor and TM4 as well as key 3 investors in those companies that battery electric 4 vehicles are not viable.

5 We respectfully disagree and are ready to commit 6 the large resources that are needed to bring to market 7 battery EVs that meet customer's expectations. But to 8 maintain our course, we need CARB to maintain the minimum 9 course on BEV that it had set in 1999 and maintain in 10 2001.

11 Thank you.

12 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you very much.

13 Thanks.

14 Mike Thompson, Marilyn Bardet Bev Sanders.

15 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Let me start with a visual 16 aid.

17 This is a solar panel. I'm Mike Thompson. I 18 have two Toyota vehicles, since GM yanked my EV1 at 42,700 19 miles. My RAV4 now has 4,000 miles in its first four 20 months. The Prius has 4,000 miles in a year. So I rack 21 up 14,000 miles a year electric, solar powered by the roof 22 with the panels on my roof. That's only possible because 23 CARB made battery electric vehicles possible. I can't do 24 that without the actions of this board. So I've got 25 14,000 miles a year on the EV, 4,000 on the Prius.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 416 1 Referencing Tim Hastrup's point about the 2 relative energy efficiency of fuel sells, versus EVs. I 3 could not afford to do this with a fuel cell. That's why 4 the battery EV path is so important.

5 Every RAV4 EV offered was taken. These are going 6 to come out as bullet items since we've got a short time.

7 Fleets did not significantly participate in 2002 8 demand. Their buying cycles are along in probably cycles 9 of a year or more to get grant money and line up and 10 approve all the fleet projects. So there is pent up 11 demand for thousands and fleets. So this five a month 12 figure for demand, I can't imagine how that can be a 13 realistic figure.

14 There's actually a Toyota salesman who was 15 unaware that a RAV4 EV even existed at the dealership. So 16 I question the effectiveness of the general marketing 17 campaign. The Toyota. com RAV4 EV site was, in fact,

18 misprinted the URL in their publication materials. I've 19 caught the site down on numerous occasions and Emailed 20 Toyota about it.

21 I also found numerous inaccuracies in charging 22 locations and other items, which I brought to the 23 attention of Toyota. They were very slow in correcting 24 those issues. The site currently has about a 12 question 25 fact which basically says we're not doing EVs anymore PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 417 1 because there is no demand. All the specifications for 2 the vehicles are gone. All the relevant information to 3 support current drivers is gone.

4 I wouldn't make a big deal of, but they brought 5 it up in testimony, I think we need the full picture on 6 that. When it was up actually it had some good stuff on 7 it, so I have to commend them for that.

8 In terms of public outreach and stimulating 9 demand among consumers, battery electric vehicles are in 10 consumer hands today except for those not allowed to 11 release by the manufacturer. These consumers are 12 providing some of the most wide spread and effective 13 public education outreach and marketing. EV consumers 14 driver sales.

15 Some of the things, I get  I'm sorry, I 16 paraphrased. These are not exact quotes from people I've 17 taken for test drives or driven my EV.

18 I didn't know EVs were available. I didn't know 19 Toyota made a RAV4 EV version. This is so quiet. I don't 20 like the smell of maintenance of gas. I want an EV.

21 So we sell them. Some other drives have sold 22 electric vehicles at lunches. So we drive the demand. We 23 need the vehicles out with the public so we can create the 24 market and drive the demand. If we don't have the 25 vehicles, we can't do that.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 418 1 Unique advantages of EVs. They're quiet. You 2 don't mess with gas. Things like 120 volt power sources 3 for construction tools and stuff like that. Those are 4 unique advantages that need to be pushed with these 5 advanced technologies, so that we actually stimulate a 6 market by the unique advantages.

7 We must mandate some BEV production to continue 8 this public Education. Two hundred and fifty fuel cell 9 demo vehicles in the later 2005 timeframe, whatever it 10 works out to, leaves an educational gap. Most will be in 11 fleets oh even in consumer hands. It's only in 250 12 people's hands.

13 So if they're not tied up in demo fleet someplace 14 and you put all 250 fuel cell vehicles out there, it's 15 only 250 in California to reach out to the rest of the 16 public later. If you want to stimulate a market, it's not 17 enough outreach to the public. That plan will not change 18 the mindset of the buying public for the ramp up. So we 19 need to ramp up the public, too.

20 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Can you bring this to a close 21 here.

22 MR. THOMPSON: Current fuel cell electric vehicle 23 leases in southern California, there's about 6,000 a 24 month, which is almost 20 times the lease rate for an 25 electric vehicle.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 419 1 Near term ZEV is about public education, market 2 development, and technology development. Technology 3 notes, we've heard about battery improvements to nickel 4 metal hydride. The Type 3 EVs, battery electric vehicles,

5 I'm not sure about the total ramifications of Type 3, but 6 with fast charging electric vehicles can be a Type 3 7 vehicle from what I understand of it. I need to study up 8 on that.

9 But fast charging  fast refueling does not 10 necessarily eliminate EVs when we have fast charging,

11 which is technically possible to develop and GM has 12 already produced the 50 kilowatt charger.

13 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: I must ask you to finish,

14 please.

15 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. If I had a plug in Prius,

16 would double my gas economy. We need diversity in 17 solutions. We need some full function BEVs produced. It 18 has to be mandated, because if it's not mandated, it's not 19 going to get produce. Maybe you can arrange credit 20 swapping between the manufacturers so some can pick one 21 path or the other, but there have to be full function 22 battery EVs available, or we cannot get to the public.

23 We cannot have a true zero emission vehicle path 24 like many of us have, probably five percent or more of the 25 RAV4 drivers are at true zero emissions, because we are PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 420 1 using renewable energy to power them. And that is none 2 trivial. Don't give it up.

3 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you.

4 Marylin Bardet, Bev Sanders, Clare Bell.

5 MR. THOMPSON: Dave Modisette's plan was cool 6 too.

7 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you.

8 MS. BARDET: Good evening, board. I'm very glad 9 to be here. And I feel that it has been an endurance 10 record to sit through such a long meeting. But thank you 11 very much for this opportunity.

12 My name is Marylin Bardet and I'm a resident of 13 Solano county along the Carquinez Straight from the City 14 of Benicia, the first American city in California.

15 All politics is local the former Speaker of the 16 House from Massachusetts Tip O'Neal used to say. What he 17 meant was listen to your voters.

18 The national energy policy or as I consider it,

19 the lack of one, is being played out in our area, and the 20 debate is heating up about whether our refinery owned by 21 Valero Energy Corporation of San Antonio, Texas a huge oil 22 industry conference was just held this week, will be 23 allowed to expand its production capacity and thus be 24 allowed to produce greater percentages of dirtier crude 25 oil as opposed to the more expensive sweet crudes from PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 421 1 Alaska, a source now dwindling.

2 The debate is whether we can ever achieve a 3 sustainable economy as our local general plan calls for.

4 Five years ago my good friends Bev and Chris Sanders 5 became the proud leasees and drivers of an electric car,

6 the sexy little EV1. If it hadn't been for my friends and 7 my chance to be a driver and passenger of this amazingly 8 quite, comfortable and zippy machine, I'd never have known 9 about the car's existence or its performance.

10 The EV1 continues to attract attention in our 11 town and on the road wherever Bev cruises. The site of a 12 car that doesn't make more than a high hum at rev up and 13 is virtually silent at cruising speeds, produces a kind of 14 shock and awe for bystanders we could all happily want to 15 sponsor.

16 They proudly tell friends and anyone who cares to 17 listen, the minimal cost of keeping the EV running. Over 18 five years no servicing required, averaging $ 8 per month,

19 which shows up on their PG& E bill. No visits to gas 20 stations.

21 The EV 1 represents one of the best hopes for our 22 future to help reduce national energy consumption and 23 reliance on the petroleum industry. Why has Detroit or 24 Washington, the oil industry, decided not to promote 25 production of the EV1?

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 422 1 I learned a little bit more about where the 2 energy industry is headed. I helped successfully defeat 3 the proposal by Bechtel Corporation and Shell U. S. A. Power 4 and Gas to build a dangers liquefied natural gas tanker 5 terminal and 900 megawatt powerplant at Mare Island 6 Vallejo at the mouth of the Carquinez Straight, the portal 7 to the bay area, along one of the worlds most powerful 8 waterways.

9 So many citizens rose up to defeat the Bechtel 10 project that Shell and Bechtel had to withdraw their 11 proposal before a feasibility study would have locked in 12 their development rights.

13 I had to a ask why the project was vaunted as so 14 necessary to California's energy future. If the oil 15 industry intends to control the energy future for all of 16 us with hybrid fuel cell vehicles favored, then California 17 will inevitably prove their point building more 18 powerplants and LNG terminals to bring the natural gas 19 that would be the source of hydrogen. But producing 20 hydrogen will require loads more energy, electricity, as 21 has been pointed out here.

22 This means more gas fired powerplants. If 23 Bechtel had its way and other energy czars, we were going 24 to get a 900 megawatt powerplant at Mare Island and a new 25 one in Antioch to complement the existing new CalPERS plan PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 423 1 at Pittsburgh. Thus in 10 years, just in time for the 2 beginning hydrogen future. We'd have a tic, tac, toe up 3 the Carquinez Straight, three powerplants in a row,

4 belching emissions and polluting our already polluted air.

5 This besides existing contributions from cogen 6 plants now installed at Valero refinery and C& H Sugar in 7 Crockett.

8 Our Solano county will pay dearly for such an 9 energy future. The fact is without a plan for energy 10 conservation and alternatives fuel such as solar, we will 11 be stuck with an expanding energy grid and increased 12 pollution from powerplants, cars and refineries.

13 The EV1 should be produced, improved and 14 promoted. The EV1 depends on  I'm going to finish 15 because I feel that there are very few people from the 16 public who are not associated to a company and who are 17 women here to talk about what we do in our towns and the 18 trenches to protect ourselves and our families health.

19 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: I just thought you might want 20 to come up for air.

21 That's okay.

22 ( Laughter.)

23 MS. BARDET: Oh, Thank you very much. And I do 24 have bronchitis.

25 The EV1 depends on a battery that can be PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 424 1 recharged. The EV1 can be plugged into solar energy 2 panels owned by a homeowner. Batteries could be changed 3 out at solar charging service stations. Numbers of people 4 could be off the grid. Is this what the State of 5 California and the oil industry is afraid of.

6 If so, perhaps rather than killing the EV1 7 program, we could devise a strategy for deriving revenues 8 from decentralized and democratic Solar energy 9 distribution systems.

10 Hybrid cars, no matter how efficient, will still 11 depend on oil and natural gas imports. The EV1 could help 12 offset increased energy consumption by offering citizens 13 the opportunity to drive a completely sustainable vehicle.

14 The cost of the EV1 would go down if all of its 15 benefits were well advertised. The electric car would 16 finally get a charge from the public. Demand would grow.

17 But so far, the EV1 has been treated by the industry like 18 a stealth vehicle, a bomber.

19 The EV1s disappearance after a few years of 20 trials is a case of industry overkill, an instantly 21 manufactured obsolescence, as though it were an EV Edsel.

22 If you kill the program that encourages the production of 23 the EV 1 in California, you will only be handing an 24 economic bonanza to the Chinese, who are already leading a 25 lithium battery development in production program.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 425 1 China knows, it cannot afford to have one billion 2 people driving gas guzzlers or even hydrogen hybrids. The 3 Chinese will be anxious just like the Japanese to take 4 advantage of your imagination. They could beat us to a 5 sustainable energy future for transfer. I say protect the 6 planet, go solar, go EV1 go gold.

7 Thank you.

8 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you. Bev Sanders, is 9 Bev your real name?

10 MS. SANDERS: Bev Sanders.

11 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Okay. That's very 12 appropriate.

13 ( Laughter.)

14 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Clare Bell, Elaine Lissner.

15 MS. SANDERS: Pardon me?

16 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: I was calling the people 17 behind you, so they get ready.

18 MS. SANDERS: Yes. My name is Bev Sanders.

19 That's B e v Sanders.

20 And among  besides being Marylin Bardet's Vanna 21 White here. I've driven a GM EV1 for nearly five years.

22 It's been my only vehicle. As a matter of fact I drove it 23 here today from Benicia, a tiny refinery town on the 24 Carquinez Straights. I'm here today, tonight all day,

25 instead of at work, because I wanted to stress to the PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 426 1 members of CARB a simple, yet very crucial message, that 2 is that California can save the world.

3 Never underestimate the power of a single action 4 no matter how small it appears. History is loaded with 5 tiny actions that triggered ripples around the globe. And 6 I've seen this firsthand.

7 Twenty years ago I was part of the early 8 development of the snowboard industry which has many roots 9 in the state of California. The sport at once was 10 outlawed to ski resorts. But vision and innovation have 11 made it an essential part of winter sports. And now the 12 U. S. is proud of their Olympic Gold Medal snowboarders.

13 In another example, I continue in the development 14 of women specific products in California Image Sports of 15 snowboarding and surfing, both male dominated markets that 16 have been missing the boat, ignoring the women's needs.

17 Now, their female segments are the fastest 18 growing portions of their business. I've seen a little 19 spark. I've seen how fast things can change and how 20 quickly the changes become standard.

21 But these changes didn't happen on their own 22 Without strong resistance. Even the computer industry has 23 had resistance from people holding on to their 24 typewriters.

25 When the manufacturers say people don't want PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 427 1 electric cars, it reminds me of the sports business saying 2 kids don't want snowboards and women don't want to surf.

3 The people who don't want electric car myth has 4 been perpetuated by little advertising, boring advertising 5 against a barrage of prime time SUV adds. Drivers didn't 6 want electric cars because they never knew they had 7 electric cars.

8 In fact, when I would tell them, they couldn't 9 get them when they went to find them.

10 So how can California save the world? Over 10 11 years ago the California Air Resources Board took the 12 courageous action of demanding car makers produce cars 13 that did not continue to pollute California's air.

14 No other State could make such a demand.

15 Actually, very few countries could have any bargaining 16 power against a company like General Motors. Their goal 17 at the time was driven by their premonition that if they 18 would continue to depend on internal combustion engines to 19 drive their cars, we would all eventually suffocate.

20 California being one of the largest car markets 21 in the world told the largest car makers in the world that 22 if they wanted to sell their cars in this state, they 23 better get on the trail to zero emissions. California 24 would no longer suffer as the automakers continue grow 25 vast wealth and the expense of our health and environment.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 428 1 It's hard to gauge whether the CARB board had a 2 vision of what the world would like today. Could they 3 known that just 13 years later, we'd be straining the 4 relationships with our international friends attacking oil 5 rich nations to keep the pumps pumping. Could they have 6 known that the petroleum age was going to have a prolonged 7 and bloody ending.

8 It doesn't matter now. What does matter is that 9 those rare visionaries at CARB knew that they had to get 10 off oil, and they knew, with moderate and reasonable 11 prodding of the engineers and suppliers they could meet 12 the challenge despite the short sighted goals of auto 13 executives. And they were right. They were right as 14 anyone ever has been.

15 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Can you begin to wrap up,

16 please.

17 MS. SANDERS: Yes. A couple more lines. Thank 18 you.

19 Their were right at the right time. If our world 20 could ever use a massive shift from a precarious dirty 21 business to a clean and efficient future, it's now. The 22 electric car was an experiment. It's not anymore. It's 23 proof. It's testimony to our own resolve and innovation.

24 It's hope for our future. It's the little spark. I thank 25 the previous members of CARB who championed the mandate PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 429 1 that revolutionized the way I travel.

2 They offered me freedom from as far beyond 3 rhetoric of politicians. They had the dream and the dream 4 came true. The small action truly made a difference and 5 changed the world. Today's CARB members need only 6 maintain the momentum. Please the world, maintain the 7 mandate.

8 Thank you.

9 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you very much.

10 Clare Bell, Elaine Lissner and Kimberly Rogers.

11 MS. BELL: Well, first I'd like to thank the CARB 12 board for making my profession possible. I am a traveling 13 electric vehicle repair person. I mostly do Sparrows. I 14 can do other electric vehicles.

15 I'd like to urge you to keep the policy  to 16 include a requirement for BEVs in the alternative 17 compliance plan.

18 BOARD MEMBER HUGH FRIEDMAN: Excuse me, can I 19 interrupt. I wondered what EVET meant, that you're a 20 medic for electric vehicles.

21 MS. BELL: I am, yes. This is a profession I 22 kind of invented myself with some help from encouraging EV 23 owners.

24 I'd like to say I've been in the trenches with 25 the EV people. The people who drive them on a daily PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 430 1 basis. Mostly it's been Sparrows, but it's also been 2 other conversion vehicles. My experience has been that 3 the EV owners, despite problems with the EVs despite 4 limitations with the EV's, even despite bad publicity and 5 other things, they are very tenacious about wanting to 6 keep their cars on the road.

7 Not only that, other people are constantly 8 inquiring about various cars, including this  well the 9 motorcycle type Sparrow.

10 I disagree entirely with the car companies when 11 they say there's no demand. I see demand every single 12 day, not only in the people who are interested who are 13 want to bes, but in the people who have the cars, have 14 problems, overcome them and keep them on the road.

15 I'd also like to point out one thing, and that is 16 your Board is very favorable toward station car programs 17 and transit based EV programs. Most of the city type cars 18 that would be in those programs are at the present battery 19 EVs made by third parties.

20 I would like to encourage the Board to keep the 21 BEV provision in the alternate path because that would 22 encourage makers of such EV's as the Think City, for 23 instance, which is now being handled by Cam Corp, not 24 Ford. So it's no longer an American automaker.

25 And, in fact, that particular manufacturer has no PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 431 1 incentive to bring the City to California, other than if 2 the larger automakers purchase credits from that company 3 or give them credits that allow them to bring the car in,

4 and make it economically viable for them to bring the car 5 back to California, because the Think City is already 6 here, but it may be pulled out as we know. That goes for 7 some other small third party manufacturers.

8 So I think we have look to look at near term BEVs 9 especially, the ones we already have. We have the Think 10 City. We have the EV1. We have the RAV4. Why should the 11 EV1 be taken away and crushed? Personally, I think that's 12 criminal.

13 I think the Think City, even the European one 14 would be modified so they can stay here. I think Cam Corp 15 should be encouraged to bring the new Think City's back 16 into California. We've already proved there's demand.

17 We've proved there's practicality. I wouldn't be doing 18 what I'm doing if there wasn't. I wouldn't have a job.

19 There are EVs out there. They need more services.

20 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you.

21 Elaine Lissner, Kimberly Rogers and Patricia 22 Lakinsmith.

23 MS. LISSNER: My name is Elaine Lissner. I've 24 come from San Francisco. I drive a Think City, very 25 happily, but I won't go into that. I want to try to focus PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 432 1 on the numbers, head your call that you're looking for 2 some guidance here. I really didn't realize how 3 complicated the issue is.

4 I'm not sure whether I'm going to take three 5 minutes or four, but I hope you'll hear me out if I focus 6 on the numbers.

7 Let's see. I won't go into demand, how I'm not a 8 Hollywood actress, or a  anyway.

9 I want to talk about the alternate compliance 10 option. I have some concerns about it. The things I 11 favor first of all, in the staff proposal, are the 12 clarification of language to avoid lawsuits. It seems 13 pretty logical. I favor the start date delay. It seems 14 like there's kind of no way around that.

15 My main concerns are the alternative compliance 16 path, the long term changes, the credit calculations, both 17 gold and silver. Basically, I want to take off my 18 electric driver hat here and just speak as a Californian.

19 I'm concerned these are way too complicated.

20 And what I heard the Ford spokesman saying,

21 basically, is they're going to sue us left, right and 22 center if it's this complicated. And I want to make 23 proposals for simplifying it.

24 I'm just scared that the California Air Resources 25 Board is supposed to regulate air and emissions. And I PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 433 1 think as soon as it regulates technology, that it's liable 2 to a lawsuit. And all these percentages  I mean not 3 percentages, but numbers and so forth. Everyone of those 4 can be picked at. And we, as a State, you know, my nephew 5 with asthma can be stalled for everything they can pick 6 at.

7 And, although, I have an electric vehicle and 8 want them to survive, I think if you regulate fuel cell,

9 you know, require 250 fuel cells or require battery 10 electric vehicles, you're leaving yourselves, us, the 11 State, open to lawsuits. And I'm not, you know, a lawyer 12 here. So maybe I'm wrong.

13 But my proposal is categories should be based on 14 emissions, and credits should be based on function not 15 technology used to get there.

16 A gold category should be zero emissions. And it 17 seems like there is no way to attack that in a law suit.

18 And, you know, I'm pretty negative on fuel cells after 19 reading the Wall Street Journal article on the 7th. It 20 was something like hydrogen maybe clean but getting it 21 here looks messy. Anyway.

22 I think if we give extra credits to fuel cells,

23 that's discriminating on a technology and again open to a 24 lawsuit. Just as it would with electric cars.

25 So here's my proposal. Let's say battery PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 434 1 technology is still improving, but it's about 75 percent 2 of where we'd like it to be. So I'm just going to be weak 3 and say let's go 1.5 percent requirement. This is an 4 alternative compliance path. And if we have to do what 5 the staff proposed right now, I'd rather just leave the 6 original 2001 stuff. But here's an idea for an 7 alternative compliance.

8 One 1.5 percent gold requirement starting in 9 2005. No regulating technology or fuel, only regulating 10 emissions. And credits based on function not cost. And 11 here's just what I came up with today from listening. I 12 came up with 1.5 credits for a freeway capable, 55 mile an 13 hour capable, 100 mile range vehicle that can charge or 14 fuel in 25 minutes or less.

15 One credit for a freeway capable car with a 50 16 mile range. And, okay, again this is just guessing on 17 what's going to not let automakers cheat with NEVs 18 basically, but not kill NEVs, .1 credits for any NEVs, so 19 that would be 10 NEVs to one City Car. And that, you 20 know, that could be modified. I'm just guessing what 21 would be a medium there. So that's one 1.5 percent gold 22 requirement.

23 Two, all current EVs  all EVs that are on the 24 road, made available for sale to drivers who want, I'm 25 almost done here. So that's all current EVs made PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 435 1 available for sale to drivers who want.

2 Three, a return to firm 2001 numbers in the 3 long term so that the battery companies, you know, don't 4 stand here and say we're going to stop investing.

5 And 4, no review or waffling before 2009.

6 Thank you.

7 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: You came up with all that 8 sitting there. I don't know what staff has been doing all 9 this time.

10 ( Laughter.)

11 BOARD MEMBER DeSAULNIER: Yes, but she didn't put 12 us to sleep.

13 ( Laughter.)

14 BOARD MEMBER HUGH FRIEDMAN: Don't let her get 15 away. Hire her.

16 EXECUTIVE OFFICER WITHERSPOON: I was thinking we 17 should hire her.

18 BOARD MEMBER DeSAULNIER: What do you do for a 19 living? We have a question.

20 ( Thereupon an overhead presentation was 21 Presented as follows.)

22 MS. ROGERS: Good morning, afternoon or evening.

23 I think it's still Thursday. And I'll try to keep it 24 short. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to speak.

25 My name is Kimberly Rogers. I'm from Santa Clara,

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 436 1 California. And I had prepared this lovely slide set that 2 I promised I won't use. And you can read the 8 by 10 3 color glossies later tonight. It's good bed time reading.

4 Basically, I wanted to echo a few comments from 5 before that other people, particularly the EV drivers have 6 said. And one of the things that I learned today is that 7 Toyota actually had a streamlined process for obtaining 8 the Toyota RAV4.

9 Thank you.

10 ( Laughter.)

11 MS. ROGERS: For me, the streamlined process 12 meant a about three months from putting a deposit down to 13 getting keys to the vehicle. And so thank God it was 14 streamlined. And I also want to also echo some of the 15 comments about marketing, because I have to apologize I 16 missed all the marketing. And I live in silicon valley,

17 the home of disposal income and techno geeks.

18 And I heard that there was posters around the 19 valley. I found two posters advertising the RAV4 in bus 20 shelters, you know, bus stops for the VTA. So clearly,

21 the target audience for the RAV4 Are people who have 50 22 cents to ride the bus.

23 I actually found out about the car just by 24 searching the Internet and watching you for many, many 25 years begging, pleading and hoping that the car would PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 437 1 become available.

2 And finally, 12 years after the mandate, the car 3 became available. And I do have to thank Toyota for 4 letting me buy it. Nobody is going to rip this out of my 5 hands.

6 And I did see one newspaper add on earth day in 7 San Jose Mercury. And again, I kind of question the 8 marketing, because I, like many of my fellow EV drivers,

9 go out to many events and evangelize the technology. And 10 I've personally spoken to hundreds of people last spring 11 and summer. Not one had ever heard of an electric 12 vehicle. Not one new that you could actually purchase 13 them.

14 So I urge the Board to do everything in your 15 power to keep zero emission vehicles on the road and 16 return zero remission vehicles on the road and reject the 17 current amendments.

18 Thank you.

19 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you for keeping it 20 short and providing this. Thank you.

21 BOARD MEMBER HUGH FRIEDMAN: Excuse me. I'm 22 reading through this as you spoke and it's well worth all 23 of our reading. So we'll read this in full.

24 MS. ROGERS: Test on Monday.

25 ( Laughter.)

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 438 1 BOARD MEMBER HUGH FRIEDMAN: Or you can ask us 2 questions tomorrow morning.

3 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Patricia Lakinsmith, Edward 4 Thorpe and we have Steve Heckeroth.

5 ( Thereupon an overhead presentation was 6 presented as follows.)

7 MS. LAKINSMITH: Everybody hear me okay?

8 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Yes.

9 MS. LAKINSMITH: Mr. Chairman, members of the 10 Board and staff thank you for this opportunity. I don't 11 envy your jobs one bit. You have a very difficult job to 12 do.

13 I'm here as a private citizen who has no 14 financial stake or otherwise other stake in this.

15 However, thanks to CARB's good work, I am a participant in 16 the ZEV incentive program and am happily driving a Toyota 17 RAV EV every day of the week. I'm a regular person of 18 sorts, not an engineer or tinkerer, like many of the EV 19 drivers, whose familiarity with the stuff under my hood is 20 limited.

21 But whose appearance at work each day is 22 completely dependent on this wonderful technology. In my 23 opinion BEV technology has come to fruition fully for 24 everyone who has tried it. However, I'm also a research 25 scientist who evaluates new technologies in realistic PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 439 1 simulations, where they compete with currently technology.

2 So in that sense, I often have to make similar 3 decisions that you have to make. My comments will focus 4 on the types and costs of making errors in these kind of 5 decision regarding future technology development,

6 specifically to what degree we can be comfortable that 7 battery electric vehicle technology has been given a fair 8 and accurate test, and to what degree we can be 9 comfortable with an ambitious investment in immature 10 future technologies touch such as fuel cells.

11 There's two questions I'd like to focus on today 12 in my short time. First, what kinds of errors could be 13 made in deciding which kinds technologies are deployed as 14 to killed off, and how can one be confident than an 15 abandoned product in deed was not worthy of further 16 development? How do you really know when a test of a new 17 product is adequate? What happens if we're wrong?

18 Second, what do the available data that we have 19 so far tell us about the chances that battery electric 20 vehicle technology has been adequately tested.

21  o0o

22 MS. LAKINSMITH: As a research psychologist, I'm 23 often faced with difficult decisions in my own work to 24 develop advanced technologies. Always, you have to ask 25 yourself whether the new thing you've got is sufficiently PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 440 1 better than the old thing to cast the old thing aside and 2 develop the new thing.

3 Sorry if I'm simplifying this. There are two 4 kinds Of errors you can make in this work, you can keep 5 something that doesn't work or you can throw something 6 away that does work. Do we have so many ZEV technologies 7 at our fingertips on the bring of mass deployment to our 8 roads that we can afford to turn our backs on one that has 9 already in small numbers proven to be so very highly 10 effective.

11 Given the comparatively greater risk in fuel cell 12 technology At this date, are we actually endangering 13 ourselves to make both of these kinds of errors at once.

14 First, by throwing away a technology that has not been 15 tested adequately, and next by putting to much faith in a 16 new immature technology that has not shown it's true 17 potential.

18 At the present time we don't know how fuel cells 19 will be refueled, who will pay for the infrastructure to 20 do it, and how much fuel will cost compare to other fuels,

21 how much the cars themselves will perform compared to 22 gasoline cars or battery electric vehicle cars, and what 23 they'll cost to the consumer to buy or lease.

24 The cost of rejecting BEVs as a failed technology 25 that few people want is that we will sacrifice potential PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 441 1 air quality benefits afforded by pure ZEVs in the near 2 term timeframe and that people who could benefit from this 3 technology will have to settle for something less.

4 This slide here is for the automakers.

5 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: We have had about three 6 minutes, if you can

7 MS. LAKINSMITH: Oh, okay. Well, that's in the 8 record, so I'll go on.

9  o0o

10 MS. LAKINSMITH: We know there's market potential 11 for this technology. This is the time line for my ZEV 12 acquisition process. I went through the normal hurdles.

13 I inquired at a dealer about the Honda EV Plus. I was 14 entertained for a half an hour by the entire sales staff 15 who insisted that I had imagined this car. They had never 16 heard of it.

17 ( Laughter.)

18 MS. LAKINSMITH: Then I had a big accomplishment.

19 I managed to qualify for the car at the Toyota dealer when 20 I finally figured I wanted the RAV4 EV. Here's a point 21 for us to ponder. Do SUV owners have to answer a 22 questionnaire about their competency using four wheel 23 drive, their bolder hopping experience, their yearly 24 off road miles? Do Hummer drivers have to swear that they 25 live in close proximity to gas station given the vehicles PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 442 1 inherently poor gas mileage.

2 This addresses the point of the accessibility.

3 These cars are not accessible. There are literally 4 barriers between the consumers who could drive them and 5 the cars themselves.

6 How can we say that EVs were available and 7 accessible if even many dealers lack awareness of these 8 cars. Dealers read car magazines where this car was 9 presumably advertised and I never saw any adds anywhere,

10 and they did not know about the car either. And often 11 times if they did figure out which of the very few dealers 12 that had the car, they would go there and be convinced 13 that what they really probably wanted was a Prius.

14 So the data that Toyota provided before is not 15 surprising, when all the dealers are in there diverting 16 traffic to the other cars. All of this underscores that 17 it's very difficult to get this kind of car.

18 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: What would you recommend?

19  o0o

20 MS. LAKINSMITH: This is another streamline 21 process here. We did not see the ads. I would venture to 22 say that virtually none of the people in this room saw any 23 of this advertising.

24 So we can be confident that we have a good 25 product here. This is my final slide and my PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 443 1 recommendations.

2  o0o

3 MS. LAKINSMITH: I think we know the product is 4 good, but it appears that perhaps the methodology used to 5 get it into the market was possibly a little flawed. So 6 my recommendations, keep some level of ZEV requirement for 7 the near term in the revised mandate, as a fall back until 8 fuel cell technology comes around.

9 I really hate telling people that they can't have 10 a car like mine. Everyone I.  you've heard it before,

11 everyone we talk to wants a car like we have because 12 they're wonderful cars.

13 So no new technology needs to be developed to 14 solve this problem this way. The cars are there. All 15 that we have to do is relook how they're put out into the 16 marketplace. The current situation with gas prices 17 provides a golden opportunity to capitalize on public 18 interests in this kind of thing.

19 So offer incentives, flashy ads, spend a little 20 money on some TV time. And the drivers as a group and the 21 Electric Auto Association are extremely interested and 22 already out there doing public education for the 23 automakers and we would love to do more because we believe 24 in this stuff.

25 Thank you.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 444 1 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you very much.

2 Edward Thorpe, Steve Heckeroth, Raymond Cernota.

3 MR. THORPE: Hello Chairman and members of the 4 Board, and staff. My name is Ed Thorpe. I've been here 5 at these hearings before. I'm an EV owner, EV supporter,

6 also of a member of the Production EV Drivers Coalition.

7 I just want to be brief, because one of the 8 problems with the proposal also is, I agree with a lot of 9 what's been shared today, about things that still need to 10 be changed in the revised path, the alternative path.

11 Battery electrics still need to be considered.

12 They are extremely viable at meeting the requirements of 13 the ZEV mandate and they are obtainable and manufacturable 14 today.

15 Prices have come down on supplies. They really 16 do need to be encouraged. One of the difficulties with 17 the mandate is you're only focused on the seven major 18 automakers, both for requiring product and credits, as 19 well as the ability to trade credits.

20 There is no visibility on the small vehicle 21 manufacturers who have actually been producing and selling 22 more battery electrics to the general public than any of 23 the manufacturers.

24 Most of the manufacturers have not sold any 25 battery electrics, except maybe the neighborhood vehicles.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 445 1 The neighborhood vehicles, though they have their niche,

2 they do not contribute to significant reduction in 3 pollution, because most pollution is caused by people's 4 daily commutes. And those commutes require greater than 5 25 mile per hour performance.

6 For four Years I commuted in a Honda EV Plus. IN 7 a little over four years we logged almost 90,000 miles in 8 the San Francisco bay area. We no longer have that,

9 because that was a lease program. So starting in January,

10 after some modifications, I am now commuting in Corbin 11 Sparrow, which has absolutely no visibility to CARB group 12 because it is manufactured by none of the Big 7, and it 13 also qualifies as  it's registered as motorcycle, which 14 has no niche in your category, but it does freeway speed.

15 I commute at 70/ 75 miles an hour in the diamond 16 lane. It has a limited range, because of current battery 17 technology of only 25 miles. But I'm still able to make 18 my commute of 35 miles by stopping off and getting a fast 19 charge. It takes a fast charge. I can recharge the 20 complete pack in 20 minutes off of Level 2 public 21 charging.

22 So all of these things are possible with today's 23 technology, but you need to also involve these third party 24 or these small manufacturers. They're able to get credits 25 because they're producing the product.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 446 1 Why can't they get credits and then use that as 2 bargaining chips with the age major manufacturers who hold 3 the key to these supplies, supplies for parts. The major 4 manufacturers don't want these little players to survive.

5 And the way they do it is buy restricting the access of 6 parts at affordable prices.

7 The little players, if they can accrue credits,

8 they can swap the credits or trade the credits to the 9 manufacturers in exchange for parts, and be able to get 10 zero emission vehicles to the public today.

11 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you.

12 ( Thereupon an overhead presentation was 13 Presented as follows.)

14 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Steve Heckeroth, Raymond 15 Cernota, and Glynda Lee Hoffman.

16 MR. HECKEROTH: As an EV driver for the last 10 17 years, I echo all the EV comments that you've heard and I 18 won't repeat them.

19  o0o

20 MR. HECKEROTH: I have few differrent messages 21 for you. One, fossil fuel use is a double edged sword.

22 It has to do with both pollution and depletion. And I 23 think we are ignoring the fact in all this that we are 24 running out of oil. It's not an unlimited resource.

25 And to use reformed fossil fuel to create PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 447 1 hydrogen for vehicles is not really getting us where we 2 need to go. So I strongly disagree with the staff's new 3 proposal favoring hydrogen vehicles. Besides that,

4 battery electric is 3  or 2 to 5 mile times more 5 efficient than hydrogen vehicles.

6  o0o

7 MR. HECKEROTH: I purchased this book when I 8 first saw it. And this gets to my other point. And I 9 bought copies for each of you and I hope they were 10 distributed about a month ago. This book goes overall the 11 ways the auto industry was able to use the regulations 12 that were created to find the loopholes to promote 13 passenger trucks, High And Mighty is the book I'm talking 14 about. There are several other that I'd recommend 15 reading.

16 SUVs are really an unnecessary an obscene option 17 for transportation.

18  o0o

19 MR. HECKEROTH: They've been created by the 20 loopholes, one of which was developed by this Board 21 Unfortunately. It was a 3,575 pound weight limit that was 22 put into being as the top weight that would be counted on 23 the zero emission mandate. This is a result, you see here 24 in front of you. This is a typical parking lot 25 unfortunately now.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 448 1  o0o

2 MR. HECKEROTH: And there was a saying going 3 around on the web what would Jesus drive. And I found 4 that was easy to answer. Of course, he'd walk. But I 5 wondered what Satan might drive, and I found it and took a 6 picture of it here.

7  o0o

8 MR. HECKEROTH: This was another interesting one 9 I found. This was by, I guess, somebody who was promoting 10 some diet plan. But I thought it way appropriate that 11 they drove this, and they were going to tell people how to 12 lose weight.

13  o0o

14 MR. HECKEROTH: I've been a driver and a 15 manufacturer of EVs for 10 years because of this board.

16 They were very inspirational in 1990 when they created 17 mandate. I've continued to try and promote EVs, even 18 after my company went bankrupt. And I've now purchased a 19 RAV4. And I'll attest to the testimony you've heard about 20 how difficult it is to actually go through process.

21 There was a couple other steps to get the charger 22 in, as well as what they already mentioned.

23  o0o

24 MR. HECKEROTH: My Prius, because I come from an 25 EV side, I get over 55 miles per gallon usually, up to 60 PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 449 1 and even 65 miles per gallon in my Prius. And it has to 2 do with your driving habits a lot, and how good a mileage 3 you can get.

4 I charge my EV of a solar array. I have 7 5 kilowatts of photovoltaics that power my whole place. And 6 I actually need the EVs to use the excess power I produce.

7  o0o

8 MR. HECKEROTH: This is one of first cars I 9 built. This is at the planning commission hearings where 10 it was plugged in to give me a 140 mile round trip range.

11  o0o

12 MR. HECKEROTH: This was another car I built, 120 13 mile range in 1994 with lead acid batteries. Zero to 14 sixty in eight seconds with lead acid batteries. Imagine 15 what we could do with nickel metal hydride or some of the 16 other batteries that are coming on.

17  o0o

18 MR. HECKEROTH: This is a solar charging station 19 for neighborhood vehicles.

20  o0o

21 MR. HECKEROTH: This was a car that was really 22 just incredible to me. It went 120 miles in one hour in 23 1993. This is pure battery electric. That means it's 24 averaging 120 miles an hour for one hour. And that was,

25 what, 10 years ago now.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 450 1  o0o

2 MR. HECKEROTH: So there's no lack of technology 3 and that got me thinking about other options.

4  o0o

5 MR. HECKEROTH: And lately, I've heard about this 6 vehicle, which I hope the Board will close the loopholes 7 in their mandate that allows the auto companies to produce 8 these obscene SUVs and allow cars like this that make 9 sense that are sane transportation alternatives to exist 10 on our roads. Right now it's very dangerous for these 11 vehicles.

12 Thank you very much four your attention.

13 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you. Raymond Cernota,

14 Glynda Lee Hoffman and Thomas Bradley.

15 Raymond Cernota?

16 Glynda Lee Hoffman?

17 Thomas Bradley?

18 Are you Thomas Bradley?

19 MR. BRADLEY: Yes.

20 ( Thereupon an overhead presentation was 21 Presented as follows.)

22 MR. BRADLEY: Thank you, Chairman Lloyd and 23 Members of the Board. My name is Tom Bradley and I'm here 24 to represent the Electric Power Research Institute.

25 Unfortunately, Mark Duval couldn't be here, so I'm going PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 451 1 to take his place.

2 So I'm just going to keep it real quick, because 3 a lot of this stuff has been talked about before.

4 In general, the general idea is that there's a 5 technological road map between EVs, hybrids plug in 6 hybrids, towards fuel cell and full function battery EVs 7 in the future.

8 And we believe that plug in hybrid electric 9 vehicles can provide the basis for those technological 10 advancements.

11  o0o

12 MR. BRADLEY: So all electric drive technologies 13 share a technological platform that is made up of the full 14 power electric drive train and electric battery systems,

15 energy battery systems. Hybrid electric technologies that 16 are emphasized right now and that the AT PZEVs emphasize 17 power battery hybrid electric vehicles in the order of 4 18 to 65 kilowatts of battery power or of motor controlled 19 power.

20 Plug in hybrid electric vehicles and fuel cell 21 vehicles, on the other hand, demand energy battery systems 22 for cold start conditions and also in order to get plug in 23 hybrid electric vehicle benefits out of plug in fuel cell 24 vehicles.

25  o0o

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 452 1 MR. BRADLEY: So just touch on some of this 2 stuff. Lower cost, flexible performance, improved 3 reliability, et cetera.

4 So just kind of keep it quick. Obviously plug in 5 hybrid vehicles offer a great advantage for reduction of 6 criterion emissions and an increase ZEV miles as well as 7 this slide shows.

8  o0o

9 MR. BRADLEY: On a Full fuel cycle analysis of 10 California mix a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.

11 So what you see here is this is a conventional vehicle,

12 plug in hybrid electric vehicles. And as you

13 obviously, this is a fuel cell hydrogen powered natural 14 gas vehicle and electric battery electric vehicles.

15 So with each technological, sort of, advancement 16 you get lower greenhouse gas emissions full fuel cycle.

17  o0o

18 MR. BRADLEY: Conclusions, are plug in hybrid 19 electric vehicles provide the most valuable ZEV product 20 today and for the foreseeable future.

21 Next best to a battery EV in terms of energy 22 security and greenhouse gas reductions and criteria 23 pollutant reductions.

24 And one of the most important  an important 25 point is that it maintains Bill Warf with SMUD was talking PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 453 1 about earlier about the infrastructure costs that they had 2 put into battery EV infrastructure. And this plug in 3 hybrid electric vehicle maintain and award the expansion 4 and maintenance of that infrastructure, et cetera, et 5 cetera.

6 And obviously one of the most important points is 7 that battery electric vehicle technology is a bridge,

8 obviously, between the EV and hydrogen fuel cell 9 technology. So that's kind of the idea.

10 Thank you very much.

11 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you. At least EPRI has 12 got a consistent message.

13 MR. BRADLEY: That's exactly right. Obviously 14 the conclusion is improvements and/ or whatever incentives 15 for battery dominant and plug in hybrid electric vehicles,

16 I think, would encourage automakers to go along that 17 route. And right now EPRI is working with a couple of 18 automakers on demonstration fleets for both fleet and mass 19 transportation and consumer oriented vehicles.

20 Thank you very much.

21 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you very much. Steven 22 Casner, Dr. Kerr, David Muerle.

23 MR. CASNER: Hi. I'm Steve Casner. I drive an 24 EV 1. I live Sunnyvale. I only have the EV1 for another 25 month and a half, and then I'll be without an electric PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 454 1 vehicle and I'll have too much solar power in my roof to 2 use.

3 The Toyota marketing might have been an 4 interesting program, but it just didn't last long enough 5 to reach the set of people who would really like to take 6 advantage of these vehicles.

7 The message that began this testimony, Mr.

8 Freeman, was really important not to give up on the 9 program as we're just about to get into it. He did say 10 that  he did make a somewhat unfair comparison for 11 emissions from battery vehicles, because he compared 12 battery powered by coal to hydrogen generated from 13 renewable sources.

14 The benefit that I see from my electric vehicle 15 is I really can use solar power to produce the fuel for my 16 vehicle, so that I don't have any dependence and I don't 17 produce any emissions.

18 Thank you.

19 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you. Dr. Kerr, David 20 Muerle and Hew Hesterman.

21 DR. KERR: I'm Dr. Douglas Kerr. Thank you for 22 the opportunity to talk with you today. You'll be pleased 23 to know that so many things have been said that pages upon 24 pages of what I was going to cover are eliminated.

25 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you for listening.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 455 1 DR. KERR: Isn't that wonderful. I have three or 2 four points I would like to make, however.

3 The first is to encourage you to ask, to require 4 that big car makers earn fresh credits during the second 5 half of this year and during 2004 by leasing, as used 6 cars, those battery electric vehicles that have been 7 repossessed by big car makers after canceling their leases 8 and so on.

9 As a related matter, I'm asking that previous 10 gold credits be rescinded if a big car maker cancels a 11 lease and takes the car back from a willing lessee or 12 would be buyer.

13 I have in mind here addressing the near term.

14 People are going to burdened  going to burdened by and 15 some will be killed by pulmonary disease tomorrow and next 16 week. I haven't heard today a lot about what's possible 17 in the near term. Conceivably, because people worry about 18 asking big car makers to respond when they haven't had 19 time to gear up.

20 I think the use of these cars that they're taking 21 back and requiring fresh credits is probably a good way to 22 do something constructive in the very immediate term.

23 Secondly, I would like to encourage the 24 development of plug in hybrids. And I found it 25 interesting and exciting today that there seems to be a,

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 456 1 sort of, emerging consensus, didn't you think, among a 2 variety of speakers about plug in hybrids and the role 3 that they ought to play.

4 The consensus and excitement there is exceeded 5 only by the dull thud I heard from major car 6 manufacturers. And so if there's something to be added 7 here, it is I think that I would encourage you to send a 8 very strong signal to them that you have significant 9 rewards in disincentives shaping their focus on that 10 technology. And what would be, in deed, a technology 11 where the gas engine just rarely comes on. This car is 12 really capable of doing most things it needs to do by 13 acting like an electric vehicle.

14 And thirdly, I thought the Modisette proposal 15 sounded excellent. I liked, even better, the numbers from 16 the Union of Concerned Scientists. But I thought that was 17 an excellent framework for addressing a variety of things 18 I think are faulty in the changes that were proposed.

19 Lastly, two related points. I'd like to review 20 briefly  it took me six months to get delivery of my 21 RAV4 EV. I'd like to review briefly before going to my 22 final point four or five things that the major car makers,

23 the big car makers did to sabotage the market for BEVs.

24 They had at least a couple good reasons to want 25 BEVs to fail. But be that as it may, they cutoff the PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 457 1 orderly growth of this market As fast as they could after 2 they met your requirements. They stopped making the cars.

3 Then they told you the market was too small.

4 And do you believe that?

5 With regard to the advertising for each  for 6 each of these three major BEVs that came out the 7 advertising lacked explanations of this new product's 8 features and benefits. As for the RAV4 for example, are 9 heavy on large doses of blue sky, the car is in the bottom 10 somewhere. You may remember the adds for the EV1, large 11 desert like landscape. EV1 is racing across. The EV1 is 12 not even in focus.

13 And the text is just too foo foo. This is a very 14 new, fundamentally new product that would have required 15 being sold on the merits of its features and benefits. I 16 think it was an disingenuous ad campaign entirely apart 17 from how many ads there were for each of these.

18 Taking delivery in each of these cases was 19 laborious. It was made laborious. Each car is 12 to 18 20 month availability was too short to develop a market,

21 particularly for a fundamentally new product such as this.

22 Each manufacturer's terms often, with the 23 exception of Toyota, violated the customer's general 24 preference to buy instead of lease.

25 And lastly, the manufacturer's executives made PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 458 1 repeated public statements that problems in the product 2 said to be range and charging time, would make the product 3 unsatisfactory. When was the last time that a big car 4 maker vice president got up and said this is our new SUV.

5 You're not going to like it. It rolls over a lot, burns a 6 ton of gas. No one is going to buy this.

7 So I think they have at least a couple good 8 reasons not to want these cars to succeed. I am thinking 9 vastly forward beyond the pressurized decision you now 10 face on honestly believes that it would be worth your 11 working with the Public utilities Commission and the 12 Legislature to find and to promote, to explore the sale of 13 battery electric vehicles by electric generating companies 14 and electricity transmission companies. The deregulated 15 parts of the electricity who unlike big car makers may 16 find it consistent with the self interest to sell and 17 finance the manufacture of battery electric vehicles.

18 You have a fierce and sophisticated foe in these 19 companies. I'm wondering if we couldn't do business with 20 someone else.

21 Thank you.

22 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you. David Muerle, Hew 23 Hesterman, Dr. Carter.

24 David Muerle?

25 Hew Hesterman?

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 459 1 Dr. Carter?

2 And then Mark Geller, Paulette Jaeger.

3 DR. CARTER: Thank you, Dr. Lloyd for this later 4 opportunity to address the Board and staff and remaining 5 members of the audience. I spent a lot of time thinking 6 about how I could make an impression on and what I could 7 say that you would actually listen to and take in that 8 might have an effect on the future of this mandate.

9 So I was given two pieces of advice, tell them 10 how hard it was to obtain your EV and try to offer 11 something which is unique of your own experience.

12 I'm trying to do that.

13 We first drove an EV, actually two production EVs 14 in ' 97 when we relocated to San Diego, Supervisor Roberts 15 constituency, from England. And I thought we were in on 16 the beginning of a clean transportation revolution, and I 17 was proud to move to California with that in prospect.

18 Unfortunately, we've been trying to buy an EV 19 ever since. First we were told out credit wasn't good 20 enough. I'd just moved into the country, so I didn't have 21 good credit. My wife had I lived here over 20, had 22 excellent credit, but she didn't count. I had the paying 23 job, so we didn't qualify.

24 Then we were in relocation housing, because I've 25 been moved as part of the relocation package. We didn't PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 460 1 own our own house. Again, we didn't qualify for an EV.

2 We waited ill my credit way established. We bought our 3 own house. We got on a awaiting list, which seemed kind 4 of strange, because when I went to one of the CARB 5 hearings in LA. We heard the manufacturer of that vehicle 6 say there was no demand. Strange.

7 Then we actually got into discussions about being 8 on the lease assumption program. And I thought maybe this 9 really will happen. Unfortunately, there was a recall 10 shortly before another CARB hearing and we never heard 11 from the salesperson ever again.

12 The next thing I hear that the Think City is 13 available. So I call the Ford rep. And I say we're in 14 San Diego. We're near to the dealer. How can I get one?

15 You can have it if you're within 35 miles Of the dealer.

16 Okay, that's good but what happens when we relocate to 17 Santa Rosa in a months time and we're 60 miles from the 18 nearest deal in San Francisco?

19 Sorry, you can have it for a month but then we'll 20 take it back. Okay, so we relocate, forget having a car 21 for a month. What's the point.

22 We relocate to Santa Rosa and I happen to meet 23 Marc Geller outside S& C Ford in San Francisco and he says 24 forget the 60 mile limit. Okay, they won't lease it to 25 you. Go around the corner to Hertz and they'll rent you PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 461 1 one.

2 Bingo. I go around to Hertz and I rent the same 3 car 60 miles from the same dealer who won't lease it to me 4 and we've had one since December 2001. We've driven this 5 two seat 50 mile range 56 miles an hour City Car over 6 10,000 miles. And I've dealt with all the hassle of 7 having to go into maintenance dealing with Hertz, swapping 8 out cars. You name it I've dealt with it, but we've had 9 an EV, because that was the only way we could get one.

10 And we still haven't been able to buy an EV.

11 I drove it up here, but they can take it away any 12 time they choose. So that's the part of my brief speech 13 about how difficult it was to get an EV. That's just my 14 Joe Public impression.

15 The unique part that I wanted to add. I came up 16 with a few things that I figure are unique about me. I've 17 never owned a car in my life period. I still haven't even 18 with the EV because we can't buy it.

19 I'm not American as you can tell. I have a funny 20 accident, slightly different to yours. Okay, I'm not an 21 American. I run my own company, so I know something about 22 and being an entrepreneur. And also I have a Ph. D, so I 23 figure I have some level of education, which qualifies me 24 to speak here today.

25 I left the UK, as I said all primed to be part of PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 462 1 this clean air revolution. And it's unraveled, frankly.

2 I left the UK thinking I was leaving behind a class 3 system. I move here and I find you have your own version.

4 All the power is in the hands of the lawyers, the oil men 5 and the auto lobby. That's what I've learned in being 6 here for six years.

7 I've always been bugged by one of the 8 testimonials at a previous CARB hearing where somebody 9 stood up and said, we're all defined by the cars that we 10 drive. And I wanted to stick my hand up and say so I'm 11 undefined, you know. I don't drive a car, so don't exist.

12 I don't  you know, I think therefore I am. Something 13 like that.

14 So where does that lead  well

15 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: I hope you're wrapping up.

16 DR. CARTER: I'll just wrap up with this last 17 point. I was recently told while I was on vacation by 18 well educated, well traveled  I won't say his 19 nationality, but a foreign engineer who works in the 20 automotive business. He said look, frankly, I consider 21 this as an underdeveloped country, those were his words 22 and I thought it was interesting that you opened up by 23 saying there's a small delta between current cars and 24 battery zero emission vehicles.

25 And I think the problem with that small delta is PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 463 1 it involves facts like war. And the only way that goes 2 away is if you take oil out of the equation. And that's 3 what we're trying to do, all these guys with solar panels 4 generating their own power and being true zero emissions.

5 So, you know, in my field of renewable energy, I 6 look at Japanese taking over photovoltaics Danish and 7 Germans take over wind turbines, Germans taking over grid 8 inverters and blowing away the established American 9 product.

10 There's any number of examples where California 11 has led the way and then you've dropped the ball. And I 12 pray that you're not going to do the same with this,

13 because we know these things work. I've logged 10,000 14 miles, every single charge and my mile. I know, you know,

15 that's a fact. It's worked for me.

16 So there are great people in this room that I 17 want to acknowlege, EV drivers that's it's been a 18 privilege for me to get to know. And I think they're an 19 extraordinary bunch of people. And why you don't listen 20 to them and you less to people who can lose $ 5 billion in 21 one, you might as well just write a check for $ 18 to every 22 man, woman and child in this country, and they would have 23 the same effect on their bottom line.

24 You know, listen to these  I'm every  I hated 25 cars before I got involved with this cause. Now, I'm PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 464 1 president of the North Bay Chapter of the Electric Auto 2 Association. You know, what's the reason for that.

3 And I'll shut up.

4 Thank you for listening.

5 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you.

6 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Marc Geller, Paulette Jaeger,

7 Michael Mora.

8 MR. GELLER: Hi. I'm Marc Geller. I'm not an 9 early adopter of BEVs, disappointed by CARB's back 10 pedaling on BEVs. I got interested in 2000, despite the 11 industry and CARB staff's fueled impressions that there is 12 no demand for battery electric vehicles, repeated ad 13 nauseam in news reports. Every battery electric car 14 offers was successfully leased or sold. Although, they've 15 remained largely invisible to the general car buying 16 public.

17 Most automakers met their early ZEV obligations 18 through fleet leases, denying consumers even the chance to 19 test drive an electric car. Paid industry spokesman 20 filled newscopy with quotes about how few electric cars 21 they sold.

22 Well, dah, with the exception of Toyota which 23 quickly sold out of a few hundred RAV4 EVs that offered 24 only last year to the public, no electric cars were sold 25 in California by the automakers to meet the mandate.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 465 1 I'm sick and tired of hearing how few cars they 2 sold. They never really offered cars for sale. The 3 battery electric cars produced however we all know have 4 performed well. The actual all drivers are enthusiastic 5 and waiting lists exist. I know, because I'm on them.

6 In 2000 I test drove an EV 1, but the saleswoman 7 made it clear GM had no intention of making any more 8 available. Honda didn't even have an EV Plus available 9 for a test. I emailed, telephoned and implored and I'm 10 still on their waiting lists. In May of 2001, word 11 reached me via the net that the Think City, a little elect 12 car made in Norway, would be available in a limited number 13 of Ford dealerships. And Ford made a big play about how 14 its new green leadership had bought Think Nordic and 15 announced it would cooperate with California meet the 16 mandate and become the first automaker to actually sell an 17 electric car.

18 As soon as the demo arrived, I test drove it, and 19 ordered one. And it seemed less car thank I wanted, but 20 I'd come to realize it was not easy to obtain an electric 21 car. So I pay $ 199 a month plus tax, plus insurance,

22 based on the none the less unpurchaseable sticker price of 23 $ 26,000. I pay more for my little car than people who by 24 a gas car, because of the insurance.

25 The dealer was not as convinced as I was that PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 466 1 there was a market for this car. And he placed an order 2 for six of them. What he thought would be two weeks 3 became five months of waiting. During which time I rented 4 one from Hertz.

5 As with other cars, there was virtually no 6 advertising. People ring my door bell after seeing my car 7 charging in my driveway because they've never seen a BEV.

8 Most people in California still have not idea electric 9 cars exist and work. In fact by the time the six Thinks 10 arrived at the dealer they were long since leased. And 11 there were waiting lists. And there's a waiting list for 12 the new car, that Ford has decided not to bring in.

13 So instead of bringing in these cars, even while 14 producing the electric cars, championed here by their 15 drivers, if not their makers, the automakers have fought 16 the mandate with lobbyists and lawsuits, seeking 17 postponements and revisions to subvert the intent of the 18 mandate.

19 Auto industry representatives have resorted to 20 the big lie often repeated. Their mantra has been 21 incessant, no demand and the cars don't work. Last week a 22 National Public Radio report included a paid industry 23 spokesperson saying the car companies had to resort to 24 giving away EVs to meet the mandate. As if, in fact, as 25 we know as Mr. McKinnon mentioned, in a classic bate and PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 467 1 switch maneuver, the industry lobbied aggressively and 2 successfully for modifications to the mandate to include 3 unsafe, low speed electric vehicles that resembled golf 4 carts.

5 And then in order to accumulate ZEV credits, so 6 as not to have to produce the electric cars with waiting 7 lists, they gave these cars away. The Hutzpah of this 8 industry never ceases. In pursuit of the profit seemingly 9 guaranteed by gas guzzling unsafe oversized SUVs,

10 insisting against all evidence that smaller cars are less 11 safe, they actually put people in these certifiably unsafe 12 gussied up golf carts with no doors and dump them on the 13 same SUV dominated city streets.

14 CARB's mission is to clean the air. A few dozen 15 fuel cell vehicles by 2008 of range no greater than 16 today's battery electrics offers little when compared to 17 the thousands of battery electric vehicles that could be 18 on the road if the mandate is enforced and strengthened.

19 The confiscated EV1s and EV Pluses should be put back into 20 service and leases extended or cars sold.

21 The Board should reassert the zero emissions 22 mandate, set ar reasonable percentage, fine those 23 automakers that don't meet it and use that money to ensure 24 the availability of battery electrics and cleaner air in 25 the years ahead.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 468 1 Thank you.

2 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Paulette Jaeger, Michael 3 Mora, Shauna Wilson.

4 Bill Smith?

5 Steven Dibner?

6 MR. DIBNER: Hello. And thank you very much for 7 the opportunity to speak to you. I've actually been to 8 these hearings before. I am a musician with the San 9 Francisco Symphony. And the last time I appeared here, I 10 was a very proud and excited driver of an EV1. But it has 11 since been taken away from me. I promise I will keep my 12 comments very short.

13 I just want to add my voice of support to some of 14 the ideas that I thought were the most interesting and 15 effective in terms of changes to the proposals. I thought 16 Dave Modisette's ideas were very clearly stated and 17 represented a really good compromise.

18 I do not think the numbers were pulled out of the 19 air in any way. They seemed really well considered and 20 should be considered as the real numbers.

21 Then, by far, my most important thing to say is I 22 want to add my voice to those who say that there 23 definitely should be a maintaining of the battery electric 24 vehicle requirement in the alternative compliance path. I 25 think that is the most important thing.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 469 1 I thought it was a very good idea to move the 2 date for review to a later time because it seems to me 3 that often the review process leads to stalling and 4 weakening of the original ideas.

5 I happen to be a big supporter of the idea of 6 plug in hybrids. I think it is very good. I want to say 7 to CARB, in general, I think that there's been so much

8 you have put in so much good hard work to implement this 9 very important vision. I do see your role as being a 10 historic one. And I hope you will not allow a ZEV 11 blackout in any way.

12 I think it's very, very important that these cars 13 of all kinds be available for sale so that Americans can 14 have true choice.

15 Thank you.

16 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Thank you.

17 Kurt Rasmussen?

18 Oh, yes. Somebody said Bill Smith was here. I 19 called you once. Were you sleeping?

20 MR. SMITH: No, I wasn't sleeping. You called me 21 after somebody else, about three people ago. One person 22 ago and you said three people later.

23 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Hold on, he's got to change 24 his paper.

25 MR. SMITH: That will give me a chance to change PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 470 1 my notes.

2 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: And then we have Kurt 3 Rasmussen. I don't see Kurt around.

4 And then Bernadette Del Chiaro?

5 No. Tomorrow.

6 And then I know Charlie Peters is here.

7 I thought you  that's fine. I was told that 8 you would be here tomorrow, but if you're here tonight,

9 that's great.

10 Jerry Pohorsky. We haven't got to you yet.

11 MR. SMITH: Ready?

12 CHAIRPERSON LLOYD: Ready. Please start.

13 MR. SMITH: Thank you very much. It's always 14 pleasure to public speak. I've publically spoken about 15 700 times in the last 12 years at the military base 16 conversion we have happening down in the bay area.

17 There's ten bases on the bay front. There's 30 18 bases in California converting. I'm trying to help us 19 make us smooth transition.

20 The Calstart had come to our military base as the 21 first business. The entire country is watching what's 22 happening in Alameda.

23 I've been able to follow all of this as a result 24 of my researching and researching and researching, working 25 18 hour days a lot of the time and down to two our days,

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 471 1 because what I do is basically recreational.

2 Now, I've been able to garner the top 3 technologists available. And in the fields of the 4 materials solutions for their products, you have systems 5 of design. The big three car companies have either like 6 the Hemi Motors, or they have the Ford Bodies, or they 7 have the GM interiors.

8 And I've had family and extended family in all 9 the different technologies and all the different angles of 10 different transportation vehicles.

11 Now, my objectives are to be able to help 12 everybody in every way I can. And I haven't been working 13 on the problems. I've been working with the solutions.

14 Now, your people have been working on the solutions, but 15 they're very limited by their breadth and depth of the 16 legislation that's allowed you to make the progress you've 17 made here in the last 12 years.

18 And it's amazing that people can make any kind of 19 progress at all. I've been in touch many, many times with 20 the staff. And the staff turns over a little bit, but 21 still you have quality people and this is California, and 22 I'm down in Alameda. You can't find the quality of people 23 that you can find in our region.

24 Now, what I'd like to see happen is a RealTime 25 independent expert review panel. Now, this is apparently PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 472 1 being instituted here. And in order for us to be able to 2 make the appropriate progress, we're in a position to 3 capitalize and have the technologies that  of the 4 technologists that I've been able to meet, I've had people 5 approaching me from other countries telling me they want 6 me to Market these companies.

7 Now, I'm not table to give them these companies 8 to deal with because they don't now how to deal with them.

9 Now, I'm dealing with the companies and they want the 10 products that I have. And there's a lot of different 11 things you do when you do a new class of vehicle. I'm in 12 a position to do a new class of vehicle. It's for rescue,

13 instead of doing war.

14 You go up against Mother Nature and you have a 15 lot of solutions you can deal with. Now, if you can do 16 the neighborhood electric vehicle, there's a lot of people 17 against it, because it doesn't go 55 miles an hour down 18 the freeway. Although, the Neighborhood Electric Vehicle 19 in allowed in not at 25 miles an hour, but 21 miles per 20 hour.

21 And GM put them out to the dealers for free,

22 seven per dealer. And now they're taking them back. And 23 they're sending them off to the company that produced 24 them, they had a very short contract with. The people 25 have a million vehicles out there.

PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 473 1 I'm in a position to revamp these vehicles.

2 There's a million vehicles. There are a lot of them in 3 California and Florida, because that's where the senior 4 facilities are. They control their own roads. The people 5 are not able to go to the market.

6 Now, what's so funny, Dr. Lloyd. The guy is 7 leaving on me.

8 Do we have a quorum.

9 Maybe Mrs. Riordan, can inform me as to why he 10 was losing it.

11 GENERAL COUNSEL WALSH: Since at this point in 12 time, we do not have a quorum of the Board we should 13 continue the hearing until tomorrow morning at 8: 30.

14 MR. SMITH: I imagine I'll just pick up my time 15 then.

16 ( Thereupon the California Air Resources Board 17 recessed at 9: 15 p. m.)

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345 474 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 I, JAMES F. PETERS, a Certified Shorthand 3 Reporter of the State of California, and Registered 4 Professional Reporter, do hereby certify:

5 That I am a disinterested person herein; that the 6 foregoing California Air Resources Board meeting was 7 reported in shorthand by me, James F. Peters, a Certified 8 Shorthand Reporter of the State of California, and 9 thereafter transcribed into typewriting.

10 I further certify that I am not of counsel or 11 attorney for any of the parties to said meeting nor in any 12 way interested in the outcome of said meeting.

13 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand 14 this 16th day of April, 2003.

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 JAMES F. PETERS, CSR, RPR 24 Certified Shorthand Reporter 25 License No. 10063 PETERS SHORTHAND REPORTING CORPORATION ( 916) 362 2345