UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

             OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION

                             Public Meeting

                         Advisory Committee on

                     Occupational Safety and Health

                         8:07 a.m. to 4:19 p.m.

                         Tuesday, June 8, 2010

                     Conference Room N3437 A, B & C

                        200 Constitution Avenue

                            Washington, D.C.

                                                         2

                        APPEARANCES ON BEHALF OF

          NATIONAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY

                          AND HEALTH (NACOSH)

                        U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

                        PUBLIC REPRESENTATIVES:

           MICHAEL SILVERSTEIN, MD, MPH

             Assistant Director

             Washington Division of

                 Occupational Safety and Health

             P.O. Box 44600

             Olympia, Washington  98504-4600

           LINDA RAE MURRAY, MD, MPH

             Chief Medical Officer

             Cook County Department of Health

             5344 South Hyde Park Boulevard

             Chicago, Illinois  60615

           ROY BUCHAN, Dr.PH, MPH

             Colorado State University

             Occupational Health Section, Department of

                Environmental & Radiological Health Sciences

             5715 Pleasant Hill Lane

             Fort Collins, Colorado  80526

           DENISE POUGET

             Assistant Fire-EMS Chief

             Alexandria Fire Department

             900 2nd Street

             Alexandria, Virginia  22314

                                 * * *

                                                         3

                      MANAGEMENT REPRESENTATIVES:

           JIM SWARTZ

             Vice President Risk

             Intercontinental Hotel Group

             Three Ravine Drive, Suite 100

             Atlanta, Georgia  30346

           JOSEPH Van HOUTEN, Ph.D.

             Senior Director, Worldwide EHS

             Johnson & Johnson

             410 George Street

             New Brunswick, New Jersey  08901

                                 * * *

                        HEALTH REPRESENTATIVES:

           TIMOTHY J. KEY, MD, MPH

             Key Occupational Health Solutions

             1414 Overlook Road

             Homewood, Alabama  35209

           SUSAN RANDOLPH, MSN, RN, COHN-S, FAAOHN

             Clinical Assistant Professor

             Occupational Health Nursing Program

             University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill

             1700 Airport Road, CB #7502

             Chapel Hill, North Carolina  27599-7502

                                 * * *

                                                         4

                         LABOR REPRESENTATIVES:

           WILLIAM BORWEGEN, MPH

             Director, Occupational Health and Safety

                Service Employees International Union,

                CTW, CLC

             1800 Massachusetts Avenue, Northwest

             Washington, DC  20036

           MARGARET SEMINARIO, MS

             Director, Safety and Health, AFL-CIO

             815 Sixteenth Street, Northwest

             Washington, DC  20006

                                 * * *

                        SAFETY REPRESENTATIVES:

           EMORY KNOWLES III, CSP, CIH

             Manager, Industrial Hygiene and Safety

             Northrop Grumman

             7323 Aviation Boulevard, MS 1401

             Baltimore, Maryland  21290

           PETER DOOLEY, MS, CSP, CIH

             LaborSafe

             6301 North Zeeb Road

             Dexter, Michigan  48130

                                 * * *

                                                         5

                          COMMITTEE CONTACTS:

           DEBORAH PAGE CRAWFORD

             Designated Federal Officer

             Room N3641

           VENETA CHATMON (Travel)

             Room N3647

           SARAH J. SHORTALL (Committee Counsel)

             Room S4004

           PAUL J. MIDDENDORF, Ph.D, CIH

             CDC/NIOSH

             Office of the Director

             4676 Columbia Parkway

             Cincinnati, Ohio  45226

                                 * * *

                 SPEAKERS FOR OIL SPILL RESPONSE UPDATE

           DR. DAVID MICHAELS

             Assistant Secretary, OSHA

           DR. JOHN HOWARD

             Director, NIOSH

                             OTHER SPEAKERS

           KEITH GODDARD

           NALINI CLOSE

                                 * * *

                                                         6

                                CONTENTS

                            MORNING SESSION

                                                        PAGE

           Welcoming Remarks & Introduction of Committee

             Dr. Silverstein ..........................    8

           Administrative Remarks

             By Ms. Close and Ms. Shortall ............   12

           Introductory Remarks and Discussion

             Remarks by Dr. Michaels ..................   23

             Comments and Discussion ..................   35

             Remarks by Dr. Howard ....................  121

             Comments and Discussion ..................  126

           Remarks and Discussion Re: Gulf Oil Spill

             Dr. Michaels .............................   49

             Dr. Howard ...............................   60

             Comments and Discussion ..................   71

             Continuing Comments and Discussion .......  147

             Work Group Established ...................  171

             Returning to Comments and Discussion .....  278

             Work Group Designees Chosen ..............  291

           Remarks and Discussion on Other Topics

             Remarks by Dr. Michaels ..................  212

             Comments and Discussion ..................  226

              Outreach to vulnerable and hard to

                  reach workers

              Promoting injury and wellness prevention

                  programs

              Safety incentive programs / Accurate

                  injury reporting

              Recordkeeping modernization / Injury

                  tracking

              Other issues

                                                         7

           FINAL RECOMMENDATIONS BY COMMITTEE

           AS READ INTO THE RECORD:

              Proposed Preamble to Recommendations       361

                 Unanimously Accepted                 363

              Proposed Recommendation 1                  363

                 Unanimously Accepted                 367

              Proposed Recommendation 2                  365

                 Unanimously Accepted                 367

              Proposed Recommendation 3                  368

                 Unanimously Accepted                 370

           MEETING EXHIBITS ADDED TO

           THE RECORD BY MS. SHORTALL                     388

             Exhibit 1:  Agenda for June 8, 2010 NACOSH

                         meeting

             Exhibit 2:  The NACOSH membership roster as of

                         June 8th, 2010

             Exhibit 3:  The Federal Advisory Committee Act

             Exhibit 4:  The NACOSH charter filed on October

                         8th, 2008

             Exhibit 5:  29 CFR1912(a) OSHA regulations

                         governing NACOSH

             Exhibit 6:  DOL ethics rules for non-federal

                         employees

             Exhibit 7:  Reference documents on OSHA's

                         response to oil spill and cleanup

                         operations

             Exhibit 8:  Protection of workers involved in

                         oil spill recovery efforts in the

                         Gulf work group charge.

                                                         8

       1           * * * P R O C E E D I N G S * * *

       2                  (WELCOMING REMARKS)

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Good morning.  Is the

       4   mic working for people here?

       5              Good morning.  I'd like to call this

       6   meeting of the National Advisory Committee on

       7   Occupational Safety and Health to order.

       8              My name is Michael Silverstein.  I'm

       9   chairman of the committee, and I'm Assistant

      10   Director for Workplace Safety and Health with the

      11   Washington State Department of Labor and

      12   Industries.

      13              I'd like to do a brief round of

      14   introductions, and then we have some

      15   administrative business to take care of before we

      16   get into the substance for the day.

      17              Let me say a couple of quick things,

      18   though, before we do introductions, just so people

      19   are oriented to some of the rules and procedures

      20   for those who have not been on this committee

      21   before.

      22              It is important for all of you to

                                                         9

       1   understand that this meeting is on the record, it

       2   is being transcribed.

       3              In the event that there is something

       4   that you feel needs to be discussed off the

       5   record, let me know, and we can decide if that's

       6   appropriate or not.  Otherwise, everything will be

       7   on the record, and publicly available.

       8              When you speak, I would ask that you

       9   state your name and your affiliation again, for

      10   the record, and that you do it each time you

      11   speak.  Otherwise, somebody is going to have to

      12   try to memorize all the voices, and that would not

      13   be a friendly thing for us to do to them.

      14              This meeting is just a one-day meeting,

      15   so we're going to have to adjust our expectations

      16   based on what we can accomplish in one day.  My

      17   understanding is that the committee will be

      18   meeting more frequently than once a year, and so

      19   we will have time to dig into issues in more depth

      20   as we move along.

      21              Let's go around the room and introduce

      22   ourselves to each other.  I know that some people

                                                         10

       1   know others, but probably nobody knows everyone

       2   around the table.  So, why don't we start with

       3   Bill Borwegen at the end of the table.

       4              DR. BORWEGEN:  I'm Bill Borwegen.  I'm

       5   with the Service Employees International Union.

       6              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Good morning.  My name

       7   is Joe Van Houten.  I'm with Johnson & Johnson.

       8              MR. SWARTZ:  Good morning.  Jim Swartz,

       9   with IHG.

      10              MR. KNOWLES:  Good morning.  Emory

      11   Knowles, Northrup Grumman Corporation.

      12              MR. DOOLEY:  Peter Dooley, LaborSafe

      13   Health and Safety Consulting.

      14              MS. CHATMON:  Veneta Chatmon.

      15              MS. CRAWFORD:  Deborah Crawford.  I am

      16   the Designated Federal official.

      17              MS. SHORTALL:  Good morning.  My name

      18   is Sarah Shortall.  I'm from the Office of the

      19   Solicitor, and I'm the counsel for NIOSH.

      20              MR. MIDDENDORF:  I'm Paul Middendorf.

      21   I'm the national liaison to the committee.

      22              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Good morning.

                                                         11

       1   My name is Denise Pouget.  I'm an Assistant Fire

       2   Chief in Alexandria, Virginia, on the committee.

       3              DR. MURRAY:  Good morning.  My name is

       4   Linda Murray, and I'm from the Cook County

       5   Department of Health.

       6              MS. RANDOLPH:  Susan Randolph,

       7   University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill School of

       8   Public Health.

       9              DR. KEY:  Timothy Key, Key Occupational

      10   Health Solutions, Birmingham, Alabama.

      11              DR. BUCHAN:  Roy Buchanan, Colorado

      12   State University.

      13              MS. SEMINARIO:  Peg Seminario.  I'm

      14   Safety and Health Director for the AFL-CIO.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

      16              The main subject for this morning is

      17   going to be a discussion with Dr. Michaels, who is

      18   at the table already, and Dr. Howard, who is not

      19   here yet; but we have some important

      20   administrative business to take care of first, so

      21   that all of you understand the law under which

      22   this committee operates.

                                                         12

       1              So Nalini Close from the Office of the

       2   Secretary is going to lead us through that

       3   discussion.

       4                (ADMINISTRATIVE REMARKS)

       5              MS. CLOSE:  Good morning.  Thank you

       6   for taking the time out of your schedules to

       7   assist the department by serving on NACOSH.

       8              My name is Nalini Close.  I am the

       9   Committee Management Officer here at the

      10   department.

      11              As the CMO, I am responsible for

      12   ensuring that the department's advisory committee

      13   operate in accordance with the Federal Advisory

      14   Committee Act, or FACA.  FACA was passed by

      15   Congress in 1972, to promote public participation

      16   and transparency in government, by -- while also

      17   limiting the undue access of special interests.

      18              To achieve this, FACA generally

      19   requires that committees exist for a limited

      20   duration, that meetings are announced in advance

      21   and open to the public, with public access being

      22   provided to committee records, that committee

                                                         13

       1   membership must be fairly balanced with respect to

       2   the viewpoints represented when compared to the

       3   functions of the committee to be performed, and

       4   that members serve for a defined term, and that

       5   the committee's advice result from the independent

       6   judgment of the committee.

       7              NACOSH is a non-discretionary mandated

       8   by law advisory committee that is subject to FACA.

       9   In addition to the FACA requirements for each

      10   department sponsoring a federal advisory committee

      11   to have a committee management officer, each

      12   committee must also have a Designated Federal

      13   Officer, or DFO, who is responsible for the

      14   day-to-day operations and management of the

      15   committee.

      16              As you know, Deborah Crawford is the

      17   DFO for this committee.  Among other

      18   responsibilities, the DFO must be present at all

      19   committee meetings, may adjourn committee meetings

      20   when it is in the public interest to do so.  The

      21   DFO is also responsible for taking minutes at all

      22   meetings, which generally must be made available

                                                         14

       1   for public inspection, after being certified by

       2   the Chair, within 90 days.

       3              In fact, the DFO is responsible for

       4   maintaining all committee records.  And with

       5   limited exemption, these records must be made

       6   available to the public as well.

       7              Additionally, the DFO may be called to

       8   serve as the committee's chair, and is also

       9   required to prepare the annual report on the

      10   committee's activities.

      11              FACA requires that all committees must

      12   be chartered, and the charter serves as the

      13   governing document for the committee.

      14              Among other things, the charter sets

      15   forth the committee's purpose, scope and

      16   membership plan.  Charters generally expire within

      17   two years and may generally be renewed.

      18              However, a committee cannot operate

      19   without an active charter on file with Congress.

      20              You should all have received a copy of

      21   NACOSH's charter with your appointment letters.

      22   The current charter for this committee expires in

                                                         15

       1   October of this year.

       2              I do urge you to review the charter to

       3   better understand how you can assist the

       4   department.  And should you have any questions,

       5   please contact Deborah.

       6              Just as charters expire within two

       7   years, committee members generally serve defined

       8   terms.  NACOSH members normally serve two-year

       9   terms at the pleasure of the secretary.

      10              As I mentioned, FACA requires that

      11   committee membership be fairly balanced in terms

      12   of the viewpoints represented when compared to the

      13   functions to be performed.

      14              The secretary has requested your

      15   service on NACOSH for your expertise, and the

      16   ability to represent the groups needed to achieve

      17   the balance necessary to provide advice to the

      18   Departments of Labor and Health and Human Services

      19   on the administration of the Occupational Safety

      20   and Health Act.

      21              Therefore, I urge you to keep this in

      22   mind when meetings are scheduled.  In the realm of

                                                         16

       1   advisory committees, forums are generally

       2   insufficient, and the absence of even one member

       3   can impact balance which may undermine the work of

       4   the committee.

       5              To promote transparency, NACOSH

       6   meetings are generally open to the public and must

       7   be announced with an agenda in the Federal

       8   Register at least 15 days prior to the meeting

       9   date.

      10              Information regarding committees, their

      11   meetings, membership, costs and reports, can also

      12   be found on the government's public database for

      13   advisory committees, which is www.F-I-D-O --

      14   that's www.fido.gov.

      15              Because committee meetings must be

      16   announced in advance in the federal register and

      17   are open to the public, I urge you to refrain from

      18   discussing committee business during breaks from

      19   meetings or via e-mail.  And even in the meeting

      20   setting, please understand that the discussion

      21   must be limited to the announced agenda.

      22              The DFO or the committee's chair shall

                                                         17

       1   guide the discussions to stay on point.

       2              By law, the agenda must be set by the

       3   department and not the committee.  Likewise,

       4   decisions to call meetings to USEP[phonetic]

       5   groups or anything else that requires the

       6   expenditure of federal funds must be made by the

       7   department.

       8              While the department values your

       9   participation here today, your role as a committee

      10   member does not entitle you to speak on behalf of

      11   the United States or the Department of Labor.

      12              Additionally, should you be approached

      13   by the press or members of the public regarding

      14   matters relating to your committee service, I ask

      15   that you contact Deborah for guidance as to how to

      16   handle.

      17              It is my understanding that you will be

      18   briefed by the Department's Office of the

      19   Solicitor on the applicable standards of conduct

      20   of the September NACOSH meeting.

      21              In the meantime, should you have any

      22   questions regarding your role, please follow up

                                                         18

       1   with Deborah.  If she doesn't know the answer,

       2   she'll get it for you.

       3              The recommendations that you

       4   collectively work towards will be submitted to the

       5   secretary through OSHA.  The recommendations must

       6   be rendered from the committee's independent

       7   judgment and will receive due consideration from

       8   the department.

       9              We appreciate your willingness to

      10   assist the department and urge you to keep in mind

      11   what I have mentioned here today.

      12              While there are no civil or criminal

      13   penalties for failing to comply with FACA, there

      14   could be other consequences for non-compliance,

      15   such as the Department could be enjoined from

      16   using committee recommendations or face

      17   congressional scrutiny.

      18              I have covered a fair amount quickly.

      19   Should you -- you should have received a booklet

      20   on FACA with your appointment letter.  But if you

      21   need another copy, please contact Deborah, or if

      22   you have any questions, please let Deborah know

                                                         19

       1   and she'll get in touch with me.  Thank you.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you, Nalini.

       3              Are there questions that anybody has?

       4              Sarah.

       5              MS. SHORTALL:  I'd like to add a couple

       6   of things --

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Again, names --

       8              MS. SHORTALL:  My name is Sarah

       9   Shortall.  I'm on the NACOSH council.

      10              I wanted to add a couple of things, and

      11   that is, although we do operate by FACA, OSHA has

      12   also established its own regulations for advisory

      13   committees.  The ones pertaining directly to

      14   NACOSH are in 29 CFR1912(a), and you've received a

      15   copy of that in your background materials today.

      16              Those regulations actually provide

      17   additional transparency, and additional procedures

      18   beyond what is the minimum requirement under FACA.

      19   So although we do comply with all FACA

      20   requirements, we will be going beyond them in

      21   certain regards.

      22              One of the things that we do that

                                                         20

       1   enhances transparency is the public inspection

       2   process that we have is very open, because we put

       3   all materials from the NACOSH meeting into our

       4   public docket, which is available at

       5   www.regulations.gov.

       6              The docket for this entire year for

       7   NACOSH is OSHA-2010-0012.  So all you have to do

       8   is plug that information into the search key on

       9   regulations.gov, and you'll be able see all the

      10   materials in there.

      11              I will, during the course of the

      12   meeting, be marking certain items as exhibits that

      13   will be added into the record.  And in addition to

      14   that, everything that is given to us to put into

      15   the record, we will do so without any change.

      16              So if someone is going to be submitting

      17   something that would have personal information, we

      18   encourage you to not let us have information that

      19   could compromise your personal integrity or your

      20   personal safety and security.

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you, Sarah.

      22              Any other comments or questions?

                                                         21

       1              Thank you, Nalini.

       2              MS. CLOSE:  Thank you.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I would urge each of

       4   you to read through the rules for the committee,

       5   which Sarah just mentioned.

       6              There are a couple of things in the

       7   rules that I think are particularly relevant, one

       8   being that the committee can establish

       9   subcommittees, or work groups.  And we probably

      10   will do that by the end of the day, at least begin

      11   to do that.

      12              And also, at our request, the assistant

      13   secretary may engage experts or consultants to

      14   help us with our work.  And that may be something

      15   that's appropriate as well, depending on what the

      16   issues are.

      17              So I just ask you to keep those things

      18   in mind as we go through our discussion.

      19              I'd like to --

      20              MS. SHORTALL:  May I add one other

      21   thing?

      22              DR. MICHAELS:  Sure.

                                                         22

       1              MS. SHORTALL:  Excuse me, sir.

       2              Sarah Shortall, NACOSH council.

       3              On the issue of subcommittees, not only

       4   is that permitted under OSHA's own regulations,

       5   but also under FACA.

       6              But there's one thing you have to

       7   understand about subcommittees.  They report back

       8   to DACOSH.  They don't report back, and they are

       9   prohibited from reporting back directly to the

      10   agency.

      11              So all official recommendations to the

      12   agency would come from this parent body, not from

      13   any subcommittee.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

      15              With that, I'd like to just jump into

      16   the substantive part of the agenda.

      17              Assistant Secretary Dr. David Michaels

      18   is with us this morning.

      19              John Howard, Dr. Howard, from NIOSH is

      20   expected, but he's been a bit delayed.

      21              So I think we'll start with some

      22   introductory comments from Dr. Michaels and

                                                         23

       1   discussion that follows from that.

       2         (INTRODUCTORY REMARKS BY DR. MICHAELS)

       3              DR. MICHAELS:  Thank you,

       4   Dr. Silverstein.

       5              Thank you all, for volunteering your

       6   time to be on this very important committee.

       7   Speaking, I think for the entire Labor Department,

       8   we are very grateful for your input.

       9              I look around this room, I see hundreds

      10   of years of experience and wisdom in the field of

      11   occupational health.  And we are very grateful

      12   that you are willing to help us.

      13              Before I begin, also let me thank the

      14   staff here who is supporting this committee:

      15   Keith Goddard, Deborah Crawford from OSHA, Sarah

      16   Shortall from the Solicitor of Labor, and Paul

      17   Middendorf from NIOSH.  We're very grateful for

      18   your work on making this committee function so

      19   well, and I'm grateful for that.

      20              I'd like to spend a couple of minutes

      21   talking about the direction that OSHA is going.  I

      22   know it's been a while since this committee has

                                                         24

       1   met, and it hasn't met since Jordan Barab, who is

       2   the Deputy Secretary, and I have come into office

       3   here.

       4              We're taking OSHA in new directions,

       5   continuing a lot of the good work that OSHA has

       6   been doing, and trying to go into new directions

       7   well.  So I thought we'd talk a little bit about

       8   that, and I think we'll give some context to this

       9   whole discussion today.

      10              We're guided by Secretary Hilda Solis's

      11   vision of good jobs for everyone.  When we see

      12   America, people with good jobs, we understand that

      13   a job isn't a good job if it's not a safe job.

      14   And our job at OSHA is to make sure that those

      15   jobs around the country, all parts of the country,

      16   all sectors, are good jobs, and that they're safe.

      17   And we work very hard on that.  So we're focusing

      18   in a number of different areas.

      19              The most obvious one, the one that gets

      20   the highest profile, obviously, is enforcement.

      21   We're trying to enhance our enforcement

      22   activities.  OSHA has offices around the country.

                                                         25

       1   We have inspectors who get out to workplaces.

       2   We're looking at ways to have a bigger impact, and

       3   we look for your guidance in helping make that

       4   happen.

       5              We are very fortunate in that the

       6   budget that the President proposed and Congress

       7   gave us last year, that we are able to hire a

       8   hundred new inspectors.  And we'll, hopefully, be

       9   hiring more soon.

      10              We have recently increased our penalty

      11   structure, or changed our penalty structure, to

      12   allow us to have increased penalties that will go

      13   into effect some months from now.  We are still

      14   limited by the OSHA Act, which limits a serious

      15   violation to $7,000, but the way we calculate the

      16   actual citation for each violation will be

      17   increased shortly.

      18              In much of the country, OSHA

      19   enforcement is done by State plans, with whom we

      20   work very closely.  We have a new focus on looking

      21   at the State plans, trying to ensure that they're

      22   at least as effective as the OSHA program.

                                                         26

       1              We have an ongoing audit program going

       2   on.  We have only completed one so far, the one in

       3   Nevada, but the audits of the other State plans

       4   are coming in shortly -- or coming in now, and we

       5   want to make sure that they are doing a good job

       6   as well.

       7              So within the area of enforcement,

       8   though, one of the things we've been thinking very

       9   much about, we hope that you'll think about some

      10   with us, is the question deterrence.

      11              I don't need to go through the

      12   statistics, but everybody knows that we don't have

      13   enough inspectors to visit every workplace on any

      14   regular basis.  And, certainly, some workplaces

      15   where we do go in and take a large staff of

      16   inspectors and spend a lot of time there, because

      17   they're very complex workplaces.

      18              So we're trying to think about ways

      19   that our inspections can have a stronger deterrent

      20   effect.  And that's high on our agenda, and we

      21   look to you for some advice on that sort of

      22   question.

                                                         27

       1              In terms of compliance of systems, we

       2   hope to continue all of our good work in many of

       3   those areas.  But an area that we are very much

       4   focused on is reaching out to vulnerable and

       5   hard-to-reach populations, especially populations

       6   who don't speak English, because we know that

       7   workers who come from groups that don't speak

       8   English are vulnerable to injury and illness,

       9   because they are often in the worst jobs and the

      10   most dangerous jobs.  And all of our statistics

      11   show that.

      12              Hispanic workers' fatality rates are

      13   far higher than non-Hispanic workers.  Injury

      14   rates are higher.  We recognize that workers

      15   cannot be trained, if training is only done in

      16   English and they don't speak English.

      17              So one of the things we've done

      18   recently is reiterated to our enforcement officers

      19   that, when training is required to be provided,

      20   that training must be done in the language that

      21   workers understand.

      22              In April, we held a meeting in Houston.

                                                         28

       1   It was called the Action Summit on Latino Worker

       2   Health and Safety.  It was attended by about a

       3   thousand people, and a number of people that are

       4   here were there.

       5              It was a very powerful meeting where we

       6   heard stories of workers who really either didn't

       7   know their rights or weren't able to exercise

       8   their rights to a safe workplace.

       9              And we recognize this is a very

      10   important area for OSHA to address.  We're trying

      11   to look at ways to reach out to workers who are at

      12   an increased risk for injury and illness, and we

      13   try and reach them through non-traditional ways,

      14   through community organizations, through religious

      15   organizations, and through public service

      16   announcements.

      17              And, again, we could use your help in

      18   thinking about ways to reach these populations.

      19              We're also thinking about, going back

      20   to enforcement, targeting those employers who hire

      21   these workers.  Many of them are also small

      22   employers who may not be registered in the

                                                         29

       1   traditional databases that we use to go find -- to

       2   target our inspections, and that's an area we need

       3   to do some thinking about.

       4              The other area in compliance systems

       5   we're refocusing on is the focus on producing

       6   materials and training for workers.  OSHA has, in

       7   the past, done an excellent job producing

       8   materials for health and safety professionals, but

       9   it's our view that there are many other sources of

      10   information for health and safety professionals.

      11              Industrial hygienists, safety

      12   specialists, can look at the private sector for

      13   materials they need.

      14              No one's -- very few people are

      15   producing materials for workers.  So we're trying

      16   to refocus and produce educational training for

      17   workers, and thinking about that in the languages

      18   and literacy levels that workers speak and have.

      19   So that's a big focus for us.

      20              We are continuing with our Susan

      21   Harwood grants.  We've announced one set of

      22   grants.  We hope to do more training programs to

                                                         30

       1   reach out to workers and to employers to ensure

       2   that people know what their hazards are.

       3              We also would like to increase our

       4   focus on small business and compliance assistance

       5   in the President's 2011 budget.  There's a million

       6   dollars -- there's a request for a million dollar

       7   increase in our State consultation program.  It's

       8   the largest increase in many years.

       9              We recognize we would far prefer to

      10   have a small businessperson contact an OSHA

      11   consultation program and get help, before having

      12   an OSHA inspector arrive and have to issue

      13   citations.  We don't want to issue citations.  We

      14   prefer to prevent injuries and illnesses before

      15   they occur.

      16              We have a very ambitious regulatory

      17   agenda, and we publish this every six months.  If

      18   you look at the regulatory agenda, we are moving

      19   very quickly.  We hope to have our cranes and

      20   derricks standard out sometime this summer.  We

      21   have a number of other standards that are in the

      22   pipeline, moving very rapidly, given the

                                                         31

       1   traditional pace of OSHA regulations.  Though it's

       2   still, in my mind, much too slow.

       3              The cornerstone of the regulatory

       4   agenda is the injury and illness prevention

       5   program, and we hope to discuss that this

       6   afternoon as well.

       7              We recognize that to do a better job

       8   preventing injuries, fatalities and illnesses, we

       9   have to change the culture in the workplace.  We

      10   have to make safety and health a high priority

      11   across the country, and have employers look at

      12   safety and health not with the objective of

      13   meeting OSHA standards, but with the objective of

      14   eliminating hazards.

      15              And we believe that injury and health,

      16   this prevention program, is one of the ways to get

      17   there, and we'll be discussing that more this

      18   afternoon.

      19              We hope to modernize our record-keeping

      20   system, but not right now.  Many employers keep

      21   track of injuries and illnesses using paper and

      22   pencil.  We think that since we're in the decade

                                                         32

       1   of the 21st century, all employers should be

       2   moving to an electronic system and we hope to help

       3   get them there.  We'll talk about that this

       4   afternoon as well.

       5              And, finally, we are very much

       6   committed to an open, transparent government.  We

       7   want our stakeholders to be able to see what we do

       8   and why we do it.

       9              We're putting as much data as we can on

      10   the web so it can be accessed by stakeholders, by

      11   researchers, by the public.  So far, we've put up

      12   information on the web on fatalities, on the

      13   results of environmental monitoring done in many

      14   workplaces around the country, and also the

      15   citations and inspection results from -- I'm

      16   sorry -- and the injury and illness rates sent to

      17   us by tens of thousands of employers.

      18              In addition, we have a very strong

      19   focus on reaching out to the stakeholders in the

      20   public.  We've held a number of public meetings.

      21              In March we held a meeting called "OSHA

      22   Listens," where we spent a day -- senior staff

                                                         33

       1   spent a day listening to stakeholders who came

       2   forward, said these are our concerns, these are

       3   our priorities, here's what we think OSHA should

       4   do.  We plan to do more of these.

       5              Region 1 of OSHA actually did one of

       6   these locally.  We expect to do more of these as

       7   well.

       8              And we look at this meeting, and the

       9   continuing close work we do with this advisory

      10   committee as part of that, and we very much look

      11   forward to having your assistance and your input

      12   in many areas.

      13              We also hope to place ourselves very

      14   firmly in the scientific community, strengthening

      15   our ties with our sister agency NIEHS, National

      16   Institute for Environmental Health Sciences, with

      17   the public health and science of the community,

      18   because OSHA's decisions have to be based on

      19   science and -- practical science, but in science.

      20              So, again, let me say I'm very pleased

      21   you're here; I'm grateful for your assistance.  I

      22   hope to spend the entire day here.  There are a

                                                         34

       1   number of contingencies that may arise during the

       2   day, and we'll talk about them a little bit later.

       3   But unless I'm called away, I plan to spend the

       4   day with you, and I look forward to your advice to

       5   us.  Thank you.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you,

       7   Dr. Michaels.

       8              We have been joined by Dr. John Howard

       9   from NIOSH.

      10              And, Dr. Howard, we've just started

      11   with general introductory comments.  And I

      12   would -- if you've been able to catch your breath,

      13   I'll invite you to do the same thing on behalf of

      14   NIOSH.

      15              DR. HOWARD:  Okay.  Well, then,

      16   welcome.  Glad to be here, and sorry I was late.

      17   The Mall was a little wider than I thought this

      18   morning.

      19              I'm thrilled to be here and to tell you

      20   a little bit about what NIOSH is doing and be

      21   happy to do that at the appropriate time.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  If you'd like to make

                                                         35

       1   some, at least brief introductory comments, you

       2   can do it now, or you can --

       3              DR. HOWARD:  No, we'll wait.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  We can wait, at your

       5   choice.

       6              Are there questions, then, for

       7   Dr. Michaels?  I know that there are some specific

       8   topics that Dr. Michaels wanted to engage us in

       9   discussion about.  And we will let him raise those

      10   topics one at a time.

      11              But before that, are there specific

      12   questions, comments, responses to his initial

      13   thoughts?

      14              Yes.

      15              Again, I would remind people, names and

      16   affiliations.  Like I said --

      17               (COMMENTS AND DISCUSSIONS

      18               ON DR. MICHAELS' REMARKS)

      19              DR. BUCHAN:  Roy Buchan, Colorado State

      20   University.

      21              Dr. Michaels, I have been working in

      22   agricultural safety and health since 1973.

                                                         36

       1              You mentioned hard-to-reach workers.

       2              Agriculture ranks as the top, or

       3   second-most dangerous occupation in the United

       4   States.  OSHA has pretty much neglected

       5   agriculture over the years, most recently, because

       6   of the ten employee requirement.

       7              But I think you should know that 80

       8   percent of production in agriculture now is by

       9   five different companies.  Agriculture is becoming

      10   big business.

      11              And, hopefully, at some point, OSHA

      12   will begin to do enforcement in this sector, or

      13   some form of education or consultation.  That's

      14   from me personally.  I'm passionate about it.

      15              DR. MICHAELS:  If I could respond first

      16   by saying, I hope this isn't a dialogue between me

      17   and you.  But I want to make this you-all talking

      18   to me, and each other giving advice, but I can't

      19   help but respond.

      20              You're absolutely right.  OSHA has not

      21   focused on agriculture in a way that's

      22   commensurate with its importance in terms of

                                                         37

       1   injury and illness.

       2              It is something that we're certainly

       3   thinking about, and we'd be grateful for any

       4   advice that you could give us on ways to do that.

       5   It certainly is of great concern to us.  We're

       6   aware of the hazards and the burden of injury and

       7   illness among the farm workers.

       8              DR. BUCHAN:  I'd like to respond by one

       9   thing, because Dr. Howard's here.  NIOSH currently

      10   supports eight agricultural health and safety

      11   centers -- ten agricultural health and safety

      12   centers, at about a million dollars apiece.

      13              And that really is just a drop in the

      14   bucket to address research and outreach needs in

      15   that area.

      16              Maybe you could work together in that

      17   area.  And I'll shut up now.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg.

      19              MS. SEMINARIO:  Peg Seminario, AFL-CIO.

      20              First, let me thank for you the great

      21   work that you and Jordan Barab and the whole team

      22   at OSHA here has been doing in getting the agency

                                                         38

       1   back on track.

       2              And I thank Dr. Howard for his

       3   continued efforts in so many important areas.

       4              One really important issue, I think,

       5   for both agencies, you've gone through the areas

       6   of work that OSHA is focusing on, and it really is

       7   an incredibly ambitious agenda.  It's no secret

       8   that those of us in the labor movement thought

       9   that a lot of issues did not get addressed in

      10   recent years under the past administration, and

      11   there is a huge backlog of issues and demands that

      12   just haven't been met.

      13              And so I think what you'll hear from

      14   people around the table here, regardless of, you

      15   know, from where they come, is that there are a

      16   lot of unmet needs.

      17              One of the questions for

      18   Dr. Silverstein, and also for you, is, to what

      19   extent is it in the purview of this committee to

      20   look at resource issues?

      21              Because a limiting factor in all of

      22   this is the amount of money that is available to

                                                         39

       1   these agencies.  Setting, you know, priorities is

       2   obviously key.  But even, you know, within the

       3   current four walls of the NIOSH budget or the OSHA

       4   budget, it's really moving the pieces around.

       5              And, again, I know that, as a

       6   committee, we can't go and lobby.  But in terms of

       7   gathering information as to what is actually

       8   needed to address these issues, what would it

       9   take?

      10              If that is within the purview of the

      11   committee for asking that information and getting

      12   some sense of what would it take to actually

      13   engage in to move forward on some of these -- some

      14   of these initiatives?

      15              Because, I think, again, in all of

      16   these areas here, there are critical issues, there

      17   are critical needs, and there are huge resource

      18   issues that are associated with each of these

      19   initiatives.

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think that, as a

      21   general matter, there is nothing that precludes

      22   us, as a committee, from addressing resource

                                                         40

       1   issues.

       2              The practical question is how we might

       3   be able to do that in a way that would, in fact,

       4   be useful and productive.

       5              Other -- yes.

       6              MS. RANDOLPH:  Dr. Michaels, Susan

       7   Randolph, of University of North Carolina-Chapel

       8   Hill.

       9              One of the issues concerning to me is

      10   there's still a lot of workplace violence.  And I

      11   know that's been an issue that NIOSH has worked

      12   on, and also the Department of Labor.  And there

      13   have been a couple of incidents recently in North

      14   Carolina that sort of brings that back to mind.  I

      15   was sort of wondering where the agency is leaning

      16   toward this.

      17              DR. MICHAELS:  That's certainly a good

      18   question.  We've been meeting with stakeholders on

      19   this and looking at specific -- trying to move

      20   some specific citations forward, because there

      21   have been certain instances where preventable

      22   workplace violence has resulted in serious injury

                                                         41

       1   and in some cases death.  And I know that we've

       2   looked at some citations, and some state plans

       3   have actually moved forward beyond where we've

       4   gone on that as well.

       5              We have a workplace violence program

       6   and we're trying to develop that.

       7              There are a number of areas like this

       8   that have come up and we say, okay, how will we

       9   address this?  And, frankly, I'm hoping to do this

      10   within the context of the injury and illness

      11   prevention programs, because as each of these

      12   arises, we need to say, yes, we need to address

      13   this issue.

      14              And I think in reference to what Peg

      15   said, we have limited resources that take on all

      16   the areas that we need to do, so how do we

      17   incorporate into this?  Because we know that, you

      18   know, certain types of social service facilities

      19   need to have violence prevention programs because

      20   violence is endemic in those settings.

      21              And we know that workers in convenience

      22   stores in certain neighborhoods where there's a

                                                         42

       1   long history of robbery need to have violence

       2   prevention programs, or safety programs for their

       3   employees, because they're killed on a regular

       4   basis at these places.

       5              So how we do this, I think, has to be

       6   part of our general approach of shifting the

       7   burden of prevention to the employer and saying,

       8   how are you going to prevent these from occurring.

       9              And so we'd love your help doing that,

      10   as well.

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Bill Borwegen, you

      12   had your hand up earlier?

      13              DR. BORWEGEN:  No, but I can make a

      14   brief comment.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Given the

      16   opportunity, you'll talk.

      17                       (LAUGHTER)

      18              DR. BORWEGEN:  Thanks.

      19              I think I would just echo really what

      20   Peg said.  I think all of us could go around the

      21   room and pick out our hazards that we're concerned

      22   about; we could all go around the room and pick

                                                         43

       1   out the sectors that we're concerned about.

       2              Health care, I don't have to tell you,

       3   you know, higher injury and illness rates in

       4   mining, manufacturing and construction.  OSHA

       5   continues to spend 85 percent of their time and

       6   energy, I believe, on manufacturing and

       7   construction.  I could be wrong on those

       8   statistics and maybe all statistics.

       9              I think we need to look at how we make

      10   the pie bigger.  I think we need to look at how --

      11   and then how we prioritize the very minuscule

      12   budget that these agencies have.  And I think to

      13   the degree that this committee can provide that

      14   kind of input to these agencies, I think that

      15   would be very valuable.

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me just pick up

      17   on the initial point you made, which is that each

      18   of us brings to the table particular interests,

      19   both in general, but also specifically, interests

      20   regarding what OSHA might do more of or better.

      21   And I think it's perfectly appropriate for us to

      22   get those kinds of issues and thoughts on the

                                                         44

       1   table.

       2              At the same time, there are issues that

       3   OSHA and NIOSH are going to have that they would

       4   like help from the committee in addressing.  And I

       5   think that one of our chores, as we get deeper

       6   into this discussion, is looking for areas where

       7   there's overlap, so that we can begin to focus on

       8   a relatively small number of areas that we can

       9   really dig into, and make some productive, helpful

      10   recommendations about.

      11              But I think it's going to take us a

      12   little while to get some of the issues out on the

      13   table, and I'm perfectly comfortable with just

      14   having a completely open floor for a while,

      15   understanding that we may be, for at least some

      16   period of time, drifting from topic to topic.  But

      17   we'll begin to focus in as the day goes on.

      18              Emory, did you have something?

      19              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles, Northrop

      20   Grumman Corporation.

      21              Very interested in the injury and

      22   illness protection program proposal.  That

                                                         45

       1   proposal is probably going to have a more

       2   significant impact on American workers than any

       3   other piece of legislation out there right now.

       4              You indicated that the focus of that

       5   program certainly is going to need to entail the

       6   identification and elimination of hazards in the

       7   workplaces.

       8              So that end, I'm very interested in

       9   understanding what the agency plans to do relevant

      10   to enhancement of qualifications of the compliance

      11   officers that are going to be enforcing the

      12   regulation.

      13              In the past, the agency supported

      14   continuing education for compliance officers; the

      15   agency clearly supported achievement of

      16   professional qualifications, such as the certified

      17   safety professional designation, the certified

      18   industrial hygienist designation.  So I'd like to

      19   get a little feel for that.

      20              And then the other side of that coin,

      21   if you're going to offer into -- injury and

      22   illness prevention programs, it's a very complex

                                                         46

       1   process.  As most of us probably at the table and

       2   in the audience know, California, a number of

       3   years ago, implemented that requirement.

       4              We've adopted that requirement, for

       5   example, within my company, and every one of our

       6   locations has to have an injury and illness

       7   prevention program.  It's pretty complex to put

       8   those together.

       9              So the second part of my question is:

      10   What role do you see for highly qualified

      11   professionals such -- again, as certified safety

      12   professionals, certified industrial hygienists, in

      13   developing those programs for employers who

      14   probably don't have qualified professionals to be

      15   effectively implementing that type of program?

      16              Sorry for the long-winded --

      17              DR. MICHAELS:  No, that's fine.  I

      18   think I'll answer parts of it.

      19              In general, you know, whether or not we

      20   move forward with injury and illness prevention

      21   program, I certainly support the continued

      22   education and certification of OSHA professionals.

                                                         47

       1              I think it's very important that our

       2   OSHA field staff are recognized to be highly

       3   qualified and credentialed, and so I know that

       4   OSHA has in the past made it very clear under

       5   Assistant Secretary Henshaw that we encourage OSHA

       6   staff to go on to CIH degrees, certified safety

       7   specialist degrees, safety professional degrees,

       8   and I certainly plan to continue that.

       9              I know there was a period where that

      10   was more dormant, let's say, that program.  And I

      11   think I certainly -- I certainly support that.

      12              In terms of how training of our

      13   professionals and outside professionals get

      14   involved with injury and illness prevention

      15   programs, we're just beginning down that road.

      16              We actually, in fact, just had our

      17   first stakeholder meeting this last week and this

      18   issue was raised.

      19              And so, really, let me turn this

      20   around, and we'll get to this afternoon, I hope to

      21   get your input in, in what resources you think

      22   we'll need and what professional training our

                                                         48

       1   people will need, and how our relationship should

       2   change with the industrial hygiene and safety

       3   professional community to make this happen most

       4   successfully, and maybe we can get to that this

       5   afternoon.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Are there questions

       7   or comments with regard to David Michaels'

       8   introductory statement?

       9              We could do one of two things here.

      10   The agenda indicates that this morning, early on,

      11   that Dr. Michaels would give us an update on oil

      12   spill response.

      13              We could -- I would ask that the two of

      14   you, Dr. Michaels and Dr. Howard, we could either

      15   do that, or, you know, we can have Dr. Howard give

      16   some introductory comments at this point.

      17              UNKNOWN VOICE:  I have some oil

      18   comments.

      19              DR. MICHAELS:  Let's dive into the

      20   gulf, then.

      21                       (LAUGHTER)

      22                 (INTRODUCTORY REMARKS

                                                         49

       1                   ON GULF OIL SPILL)

       2              DR. MICHAELS:  I'll give you some

       3   comments.  Dr. Howard actually has recently

       4   returned from the Gulf and I'll be heading back

       5   down there tonight.  So I think we have -- I will

       6   try to limit my comments to give you some

       7   background, because we are really looking for your

       8   thoughts, and less your questions, but your

       9   suggestions to us.

      10              I can give you a little bit of

      11   background as to what's going on down there, from

      12   the safety and health point of view.

      13              Oil spill workers, as you know, are on

      14   the front lines of the Nation's response to this

      15   oil spill disaster.  At this time, there are over

      16   13,000 cleanup workers employed by BP or its

      17   contractors, in addition to several thousand

      18   volunteers working as well.

      19              There are 1700 boats supporting the

      20   response operation.  And there are more than 1800

      21   federal employees directly involved in the cleanup

      22   operation over four states.  And these numbers are

                                                         50

       1   only -- will only rise in the immediate future.

       2              Depending on their jobs, these workers

       3   can face hazards from heat, falls, drowning,

       4   fatigue, loud noise, sharp objects.  We are

       5   concerned about bites from insects, from snakes

       6   and other wild species native to the Gulf Coast

       7   area.

       8              Workers may also face exposure to crude

       9   oil, to weathered oil, to oil constituents and

      10   byproducts, to dispersants, to industrial cleaning

      11   products and other chemicals used in the cleanup

      12   process.

      13              OSHA and NIOSH are providing proactive

      14   vigorous leadership to ensure that the workers are

      15   protected from all hazards.

      16              We're working as part of the

      17   coordinated federal response, which includes the

      18   Coast Guard and other government agencies, to

      19   address the health in the environment.  And we're

      20   working with BP to ensure that the workers are

      21   protected from these hazards in their cleanup

      22   work.

                                                         51

       1              We're working in a couple different

       2   areas, closely with NIOSH and with the National

       3   Institute for Environmental Health Sciences.  It's

       4   our job to ensure that appropriate training is

       5   provided to workers that BP and its contractors

       6   are hiring to help clean up the oil.

       7              We've been -- OSHA personnel were

       8   deployed to the Gulf the weekend of April 26th.

       9   That's the first week I went down there as well.

      10              Since then, OSHA personnel have been

      11   deployed to all 17 staging areas in Louisiana,

      12   Mississippi, Alabama and Florida.  We're on the

      13   ground, monitoring worker health and safety, and

      14   assessing whether BP and its contractors are

      15   providing appropriate worker health and safety

      16   protections.

      17              In coordination with the Coast Guard,

      18   OSHA staff are also aboard near-shore vessels.

      19   They're doing booming, skimming operations, at

      20   in situ -- nearer the in situ burning operations.

      21              And our personnel are actually

      22   stationed on offshore vessels for longer periods

                                                         52

       1   in all those places doing environmental

       2   measurement, as well as observing safety

       3   practices.

       4              Every day between 20 and 25 OSHA

       5   compliance officers travel to all staging areas to

       6   ensure workers are protected.

       7              We're also in the boats, as I said.

       8              On April -- on May 6th, a team from

       9   OSHA's health response team based in Salt Lake

      10   City arrived to provide technical support and do

      11   additional work -- environmental monitoring.

      12              So as of today, we visited somewhere --

      13   we've made over 600 site visits, some announced,

      14   some unannounced, in all the staging areas.

      15              What do we do when we get to these site

      16   visits?  Well, we talk to workers.  We talk to

      17   supervisors.  We observe what's going on.  We do

      18   measurements.

      19              When we find safety problems on the

      20   site visit or when we learn about them from

      21   workers, we immediately bring them to the

      22   attention of BP or its contractor and make sure

                                                         53

       1   they're corrected immediately.

       2              We also raise those same concerns

       3   through the unified command so they're recorded

       4   and addressed across the entire response area.

       5              One of our objectives is to assure that

       6   workers are provided free-of-charge appropriate

       7   personal protective equipment, such as boots,

       8   gloves, and whatever else they need.

       9              In fact, yesterday, we were told of a

      10   report where a subcontractor was charging workers

      11   for their protective equipment.

      12              We immediately went to the site.  We

      13   talked to the subcontractor, we talked to BP.  We

      14   informed the Coast Guard.  It was immediately

      15   addressed.  The workers will be reimbursed.  And

      16   there will be a public announcement made and an

      17   apology given to make sure this doesn't happen

      18   again.

      19              We have a number of very significant

      20   concerns.  We're obviously concerned about

      21   injuries in general.  We're concerned about the

      22   effect of heat.

                                                         54

       1              And we have a number of -- a

       2   significant number of heat stress cases that have

       3   occurred, people being taken to medical facilities

       4   or just treated immediately in place, where people

       5   are working in very hot conditions.

       6              We're concerned about long hours.  It's

       7   our understanding that 12-hour days are not

       8   uncommon.  We've seen advertisements for --

       9              Actually, in one case, there was an

      10   advertisement placed by a contractor for a parish

      11   that was given money by BP to hire their own

      12   cleanup workers.  They advertised jobs are

      13   available, $12 an hour.  14 hours a day, 7 days a

      14   week, would be the work hours.

      15              We are concerned about that.  And we've

      16   raised it with BP and with the Coast Guard.  BP

      17   actually has a fatigue management program.

      18              We are working to make sure that proper

      19   controls are implemented, because I don't need to

      20   tell this group, working long hours increases the

      21   risk of injury, working long hours also increases

      22   the risk of heart attack.

                                                         55

       1              There are a number of good

       2   epidemiologic studies on this.  There's some very

       3   powerful studies by researchers at Alcoa, who

       4   showed that workers who work, you know, in excess

       5   of 60 hours a week are at far greater risk of

       6   injury than workers who work 40 hours a week.

       7              As workers are working in hot

       8   conditions for long hours in unfamiliar settings,

       9   we are concerned about their health and safety, so

      10   this is an issue we're looking at.  We're,

      11   obviously, very concerned about heat.  I've talked

      12   about that before.

      13              When we see -- when we go to staging

      14   areas or the cleanup areas, we insist there's

      15   plenty of hydration, time for workers to get

      16   hydrated, shade to work in, and work schedules

      17   that give them enough time to take breaks so

      18   they're not overcome by the heat.

      19              We're very much concerned about

      20   chemical exposures.  And this is, obviously,

      21   something that it's on all of our minds.  Oil puts

      22   out a number of volatile chemicals.  The

                                                         56

       1   dispersants are being sprayed in the water.

       2   Workers are exposed -- who are directly involved

       3   in spraying dispersants, but also cleanup workers

       4   and workers on the water can be exposed as well.

       5              So we are doing regular monitoring in

       6   as many places as we can get to, to figure out

       7   what levels of chemicals workers are exposed to.

       8              Currently, most of the exposures are

       9   primarily to weathered oil.  And what we found is

      10   that this weathered oil is putting out very low

      11   levels, if at all, of organic compounds.  The

      12   volatiles have left the oil by the time it gets to

      13   the shore, and people are working with it in terms

      14   of cleanup.

      15              But we still are very concerned, and we

      16   are particularly concerned about workers on boats,

      17   so we've gone out on a number of vessels in an

      18   opportunity to try to measure what's going on.

      19              There are a number of different tasks

      20   that are done by workers on these boats.  They

      21   pick up booms, which is contaminated with oil.  In

      22   some cases, there are jobs called sheen busters

                                                         57

       1   who go out, their job is to essentially take their

       2   boat into areas and the boat mechanically stirs up

       3   the water/oil, perhaps disperses a mixture,

       4   because that helps the oil and the materials

       5   evaporate.

       6              That's what we're doing, an analysis of

       7   exposures in these situations as well.

       8              We are analyzing the soup of some crude

       9   oil, oil byproducts and dispersants to see what

      10   its constituents are, and then we're doing

      11   various -- we're looking at how people could be

      12   exposed in different situations.

      13              We're heating it, for example, to see

      14   if that soup puts out a different sort of

      15   chemicals, because we know there will be

      16   situations where that soup is heated up, either by

      17   the sun or by spraying of hot -- of steam cleaning

      18   devices.

      19              We are very concerned about respiratory

      20   protection.  And we have a matrix that at this

      21   point will tell us, given the situation, what sort

      22   of protective equipment should be provided.

                                                         58

       1              If we find chemical exposure levels

       2   starting to be of any sort of worry, we'll move

       3   people to respirators.  Our concern is that if we

       4   require respirators, it will be difficult for some

       5   workers to wear them.  And we know the

       6   respirators -- working all day long in a

       7   respirators, in hot conditions, increases their

       8   risk of illness as well.

       9              Respirators can cause significant

      10   strain on the heart and lungs.  We have workers

      11   who have signed up for this, not necessarily

      12   chosen for their fitness, and it will be a very --

      13   if we move to respirators, we'll have to monitor

      14   the situation very carefully, but we will not

      15   hesitate to move to respirators, you know, if

      16   required.

      17              If we do move to respirators, we'll

      18   require a respiratory protection program.  OSHA

      19   has regulations on that.  That will require

      20   medical examinations, fit testing, and training on

      21   the care and use of respirators.  And we're

      22   prepared to do that.

                                                         59

       1              But currently, as I said, because of

       2   potential health problems associated with

       3   respirators, and the high heat and humidity

       4   conditions, and the exposure levels that we've

       5   measured along with the levels measured by BP and

       6   the EPA, we don't think that's necessary at the

       7   moment.

       8              But should that hazard characteristic

       9   change, we will immediately re-adjust our training

      10   and worker protection requirements.

      11              We have already changed our training

      12   requirements at the beginning, based on our

      13   history with other disasters.  We recommended four

      14   hours of training for all workers involved in

      15   cleanup, as long as they're exposed just to

      16   weathered oil.

      17              We've since seen that there is some

      18   workers who have a much heavier exposure to this

      19   weathered oil, when they're bringing in the booms,

      20   and we've said they now need 8 hours of training.

      21   And BP has already responded and that has already

      22   taken place, is my understanding.

                                                         60

       1              So this is where we are.  There are a

       2   number of other things.  I think John can talk a

       3   little bit about some of the important work NIOSH

       4   is doing and the registry of workers.  We're

       5   working very closely together.

       6              We're interested in your comments, your

       7   thoughts on ways we could do this differently, we

       8   could do this better, other issues we should be

       9   thinking about.

      10              I'll pass this on to Dr. Howard.

      11              DR. HOWARD:  Sure.  Thank you.

      12              The four areas that NIOSH is working in

      13   is, one, rostering; two, data; three, HHE; and

      14   four, toxicity.  So let me just explain a little

      15   bit about those four areas.

      16              We don't use the word "registry."

      17   Registry has a specific legal meaning, and only

      18   the administrator of ATSDR has the legal authority

      19   to put a registry together in our world.

      20              So what we've done is, from the

      21   experience that we have, which we do not want to

      22   repeat following 60,000 people in New York whose

                                                         61

       1   exposures we could not prevent, and, hence, we

       2   have to follow them for chronic health effects.

       3   We certainly want to prevent health effects from

       4   occurring in the Gulf.  We, at NIOSH and CDC, do

       5   not want to follow another 60,000 people for

       6   chronic health effects.

       7              So what we're doing, and one of the big

       8   lessons that we learned in the World Trade Center

       9   is that we had no idea who was actually out there

      10   and what they were doing.

      11              So we have begun rostering all of the

      12   response workers.  That involves sort of a

      13   two-stage process.

      14              The first stage, since the cleanup

      15   started before we became fully engaged, is we have

      16   to go around to all of the places where cleanup

      17   workers are currently engaged.

      18              And then, we need to have them,

      19   convince them to fill out a voluntary demographic

      20   form and a job analysis form, so that we know who

      21   they are and where we can find them.

      22              And then, the second phase is rostering

                                                         62

       1   at training centers.  So for folks that are coming

       2   onto the cleanup crews, at the time that they are

       3   trained, even before they are trained, they will

       4   be rostered in our system.

       5              We then enter all of that data into a

       6   database in Cincinnati.  So we will have something

       7   that we never had in the World Trade Center.  We

       8   will have a database of cleanup workers.

       9              The data issue, the second prong, is

      10   there is a lot of data being collected.  There's

      11   data, as Dr. Michaels mentioned, from EPA.

      12   There's data from BP contractors.  There's Coast

      13   Guard folks that are collecting data.  There may

      14   even be parishes that are collecting data.

      15              So we're trying to look at that data

      16   and put it into a generalized database so we can

      17   analyze it, and figure out where things are

      18   happening.

      19              Some of that data, if you look on some

      20   of the websites, it's very unclear as to where

      21   that data was collected or under what

      22   circumstances, what kind of sampling strategy was

                                                         63

       1   used, et cetera.  Is it area data?  Is it personal

       2   data?  Sometimes it's really hard to tell.

       3              The third prong is, obviously, we need

       4   our own data.  As Dr. Michaels mentioned, OSHA

       5   needs their own data.  We need our own data.

       6              So we received a request from BP

       7   following the illnesses in seven workers last

       8   week, or the week before, who were on these

       9   vessels of opportunity, we received an HHE request

      10   from BP to go out and look at the situation.

      11              So we were actually quite pleased,

      12   because that gave us the ability to do not only

      13   exposure profiling, hazard assessment, medical

      14   evaluation, and monitoring.

      15              So on that issue of exposure profile, I

      16   think, you know, what Dr. Michaels mentioned is --

      17   needs to be delineated a little further, because

      18   my concerns, and I'd like to hear what you have to

      19   say about this, is there really are some

      20   remarkably different exposure profiles.

      21              There are people at the source where

      22   the column of oil, crude oil, is coming to the

                                                         64

       1   surface.

       2              Now, my understanding is that BP has

       3   decided to use dispersant at depth, and perhaps

       4   before the column actually reaches the surface of

       5   the ocean.  So it may be a mixture of crude and

       6   dispersant at that point.  There are people there

       7   at that location.

       8              Then there are surface control vessels,

       9   people who are on large ships between the source

      10   and somewhere near the shore.  And those folks are

      11   burning, booming, you know, whatever, at that

      12   time.  So that's another exposure profile.

      13              And then there's this third exposure

      14   profile, these vessels of opportunity, as

      15   Dr. Michaels mentioned, that seem to have this

      16   task of sheen busting, of driving their fishing

      17   vessels, et cetera, that are idled because of the

      18   fishing moratorium, through the sheen to again

      19   mechanically make it smaller.

      20              Personally, it doesn't seem to be

      21   working.

      22              But, at any rate, that's their task.

                                                         65

       1   And from that group arose the seven folks who

       2   became ill.

       3              That is the focus of our current HHE.

       4   But we're certainly, you know, happy to receive

       5   other requests for other exposure profiles.

       6              The fourth exposure profile is the

       7   shoreline workers, people that you see on TV,

       8   where they're usually very well equipped, thanks

       9   to OSHA's work, in boots and gloves, unlike

      10   reporters who will pick up crude and mush it in

      11   their hands to show the camera.

      12              Now, as I told Rich Besser of ABC News

      13   yesterday when I talked to him, I said, Rich,

      14   please, put on a glove and try to teach people

      15   that when they're walking along the beach in

      16   Pensacola, don't let the little kids pick up the

      17   little tar things and roll them around in their

      18   hands.

      19              So be that as it may, the shore workers

      20   are seemingly well protected.  And OSHA, I think,

      21   has done a tremendous job in that area.

      22              And then the last thing which we at CDC

                                                         66

       1   are concerned about is community exposure, okay?

       2   That's not something that OSHA and NIOSH, per

       3   se -- but it is something of great interest to the

       4   CDC.

       5              So in that exposure profile issue,

       6   we're only focusing right now on these vessels of

       7   opportunity.  But these other exposure profiles we

       8   need to look at very carefully, because I think

       9   there is a hierarchy of exposure going on here,

      10   and we need to get where -- to the exposure where

      11   it's most significant.

      12              The hazard issues Dr. Michaels

      13   mentioned.  The one that I think we're all

      14   concerned about, if you've been there, and even

      15   not doing any work, but just walking alongside the

      16   folks who are doing the work, the tremendous heat

      17   stress, the heat index sometimes exceeding 100.

      18   The fatigue issues, we just put on our web site

      19   yesterday, some guidance about fatigue because

      20   obviously, you know, working 14 hours a day, 7

      21   days a week just strains the biological organism

      22   beyond.

                                                         67

       1              The issue of the volatile organic

       2   compounds, we all know the issues related to acute

       3   exposure.  You know, personally, we use a lot of

       4   hydrocarbons in our life and we know what they

       5   smell like and we know what happens.

       6              There's a lot of literature on that

       7   issue, and we are collecting our own data on that.

       8              The VOCs come from the crude, they come

       9   from the oil dispersants, which again are other

      10   types of hydrocarbons.  They come from other

      11   hydrocarbons that are used to clean the hulls of

      12   the boats, et cetera.

      13              So we're doing area monitoring, and

      14   personal monitoring.  And we are considering

      15   issues related to biomonitoring, which is under

      16   discussion for us.

      17              In terms of respiratory protection,

      18   this is probably the issue that I am most

      19   concerned about getting a good handle on.  And I

      20   think that's where we probably need advice from

      21   anybody who can offer it.

      22              There certainly are odors associated

                                                         68

       1   with hydrocarbons.  You know, you can drive by a

       2   well, and smell things.  And there are charcoal

       3   impregnated in 95s that are for odor nuisance type

       4   of things.  And there are human beings that span a

       5   continuum of effect.

       6              So you can have one person who can get

       7   nauseous from such a smell and, you know, another

       8   person is unaffected at all.

       9              Now, if I was an oil rig worker, you

      10   know, I would imagine that going out there the

      11   first week, I would have a lot of sensitivity to

      12   hydrocarbon odors, but somebody who may work there

      13   a number of months or years or whatever may not.

      14              So there's human variability in

      15   people's response to just plain odors, way below

      16   health detriment thresholds.  So that issue of an

      17   odor resistant -- odor nuisance type respirator

      18   versus a health protective respirator.  That

      19   really is the issue.

      20              Obviously, as Dr. Michaels said, you

      21   know, we don't want to put people in health

      22   protective respirators unless there is

                                                         69

       1   significant -- unless there's exposure that we

       2   have determined by evidence, because the balancing

       3   of stressing the organism, which is under

       4   tremendous heat stress issues, and as we know,

       5   there is no medical fit thing going on there,

       6   fitness for duty, in terms of the cleanup worker

       7   cadre.

       8              So it's an issue that I think is very

       9   complicated and we need more data.

      10              But the thing that I'm concerned about

      11   is in these higher exposure profiles, I think that

      12   there, there may be a clear need.  And we need to

      13   establish that need and go forward.

      14              Clearly, with regard to community

      15   exposure, this is something that CDC is looking at

      16   with EPA.

      17              The last issue I would raise is also a

      18   complicated one, and it really -- unfortunately,

      19   we have very little evidence in this area, is the

      20   chronic effect of exposure to VOCs and crude.

      21              We just don't have a lot of literature,

      22   medical literature on what happens to a

                                                         70

       1   population, either of cleanup workers or a

       2   community exposed to crude oil spills.

       3              If you look in the world's literature,

       4   there are precious few studies, but that is an

       5   issue.  And if you listen to folks that appear on

       6   the TV, they will say, you know, there are chronic

       7   effects from VOCs.

       8              Now, we've chased down every one of

       9   those, including, you know, Dr. Gupta's Sunday

      10   report trying to find, you know, where is the

      11   source of this information?  Largely, it's

      12   unpublished.

      13              And so that issue of the chronic

      14   effects is a really difficult one, and I would

      15   suggest that, the respirator issue, and possibly

      16   biomonitoring, are ones we are struggling with

      17   now.

      18              As I told ABC yesterday, this is an

      19   evolving situation, so we're reassessing every

      20   hour, every day, to see what kind of information

      21   we have.

      22              So with that, I'll close, to say that

                                                         71

       1   the House is having an education -- the education

       2   Labor Committee is having a hearing on the 16th,

       3   and the Senate health committee is having a

       4   hearing on the 15th on this issue, so we'll be

       5   having opportunities to again inform folks of what

       6   we're doing.

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

       8              Questions or comments?

       9              Bill?

      10                (COMMENTS AND DISCUSSION

      11                ON GULF OIL SPILL ISSUE)

      12              DR. BORWEGEN:  Bill Borwegen, NCIU.

      13              So, I just want to start out by saying

      14   that a lot of those exposures could have been

      15   prevented.

      16              You know, we don't disagree on much,

      17   but I wanted to put my feet into the boots of one

      18   of these workers that's doing the cleanup work,

      19   and as if I was applying for one of these jobs,

      20   and I was thinking of the questions that a worker

      21   would want to ask.

      22              And I would want to know, like,

                                                         72

       1   obviously, they need the money, but I would also

       2   want to know, can I -- can I reduce my hours?  I

       3   mean, do I have to work these mandatory hours?

       4              California has a heat stress standard.

       5   Would I benefit from the application of that heat

       6   stress standard?  Or should there be an OSHA ETS

       7   on heat stress for this situation?

       8              Where are my toilet facilities?  Is

       9   that something that people on the beach have

      10   access to, toilet facilities?

      11              How often do I have a rest break?  Is

      12   it based on the temperature?  Is it based on my

      13   level of fatigue?

      14              So these are the kind of questions I

      15   think that maybe the government could provide

      16   guidance.

      17              And it seems like BP is bending --

      18   well, I don't know if this is the case or not, but

      19   it seems like they're being relatively responsive

      20   to requests that we make.  I think we need to make

      21   more requests in this frame of reference.

      22              And even, you know, I don't know,

                                                         73

       1   astronauts have been wearing them for 40 years.  I

       2   mean, are there cool vests that workers -- and,

       3   you know, what is the quantity of cool vests that

       4   are available in the marketplace domestically and

       5   worldwide, if we, for instance, provided -- what

       6   is the feasibility of providing people with this,

       7   or is this still space age, in concept, to use

       8   these in a wide scale.

       9              So these are the kind of -- I don't

      10   know if you -- I can remind you what the questions

      11   were, but you can respond in kind to that list.

      12              DR. MICHAELS:  Yeah.

      13              DR. BORWEGEN:  But I think the long

      14   work hours is very -- and also what about the --

      15              I also would be interested to see the

      16   applicability of either Davis-Bacon Act or the

      17   Service Contract Act requirements to pay people a

      18   living wage that are doing this work.

      19              DR. MICHAELS:  Thank you.  This is

      20   David Michaels.

      21              You know, I can't speak to the wage

      22   issue.  While you're in the building, if you want

                                                         74

       1   to speak to the wage and hour people in this

       2   building, the wage and hour laws certainly apply.

       3   I don't know, you know, which particular statutes

       4   apply to this, though.

       5              In terms of the other issues you

       6   raised, our OSHA staff, by the way, led by

       7   Cindy -- the way we structured this is Cindy Coe,

       8   who is our Region 4 administrator, is in charge of

       9   all of our Gulf cleanup activities.

      10              Even though the activities crossed two

      11   of our regions, we thought it would make more

      12   sense to have a unified command with OSHA.

      13              And we're quite fortunate, because

      14   Cindy was the area director in Anchorage at the

      15   time of the Exxon Valdez, so has a great deal of

      16   experience in oil cleanup as well.  As well as,

      17   obviously, working in heat areas, because she's

      18   been Region 4's administrator for quite some time.

      19              When we see areas that people are

      20   working in unprotected heat, you know, sun and

      21   heat, we insist that they be given plenty of

      22   breaks and hydration.

                                                         75

       1              We don't tell BP how often they must do

       2   it, but we observe very carefully, and if we are

       3   not satisfied in each individual case, we say,

       4   we're not satisfied, you have to do different

       5   things.

       6              And that's the way we're relating to BP

       7   right now.  We're in, as we say, the compliance

       8   assistance mode, in that when we recognize

       9   problems, we immediately tell them there's a

      10   problem.

      11              But I want to recognize that we have

      12   not given up our right to issue citations.  We are

      13   not issuing them now, because we don't feel

      14   they're necessary to get the compliance that we

      15   need.

      16              But if that changed, or if we saw a

      17   fatality, or something that we felt really had to

      18   be addressed, we would address it that way.

      19              But in terms of heat, and in terms of

      20   sanitation, we ensure that there's, you know,

      21   proper sanitation available.  That's part of the

      22   OSHA rules, and we expect to see that.

                                                         76

       1              But in terms of recommending people

       2   bring in cooling vests, for example, we haven't

       3   gone there yet.  We've said, you have to give

       4   people plenty of breaks and give them a lot of

       5   hydration.

       6              If we saw that was not successful, we

       7   would to have to consider other approaches, and BP

       8   would have to -- you know, BP has to make that

       9   decision.

      10              We make recommendations, and then we

      11   say whether or not we're happy with how they've

      12   responded.

      13              DR. BORWEGEN:  I have just a couple

      14   follow-up questions.

      15              Maybe NIOSH or OSHA could figure out

      16   what the feasibility would be to, you know, maybe

      17   bring in these vests.

      18              And, again, looking at the -- I'm

      19   concerned, too, David, that, you know, we don't

      20   have somebody on every boat, we don't have

      21   everyone on every shore line; and that, if you

      22   you're just citing what you see, what about all

                                                         77

       1   the stuff you're not seeing?

       2              And I think that we need to perhaps put

       3   some of this information in writing, that people

       4   should be looking at the Cal/OSHA heat stress

       5   standard as a model, that people need to be having

       6   breaks.  I would argue -- I don't know if it's

       7   temperature dependent, but regular breaks,

       8   hydration, as you stated.

       9              And that long hours is a major concern.

      10   And I think we need to get literature out, fact

      11   sheets out to these workers in the various

      12   languages as soon as possible.

      13              And what about the toilet facilities?

      14   Is there a requirement there?

      15              DR. MICHAELS:  There is a requirement

      16   in toilet facilities.

      17              The long hours, though, is one we've

      18   raised again recently and are trying to work that

      19   through.

      20              If you have -- maybe I could turn this

      21   back to you.

      22              What is the right number of hours

                                                         78

       1   people should be working?

       2              DR. BORWEGEN:  Well --

       3              DR. MICHAELS:  This is the question

       4   that's asked me, and that's why we pay you the big

       5   bucks.

       6              DR. BORWEGEN:  -- I can tell you that

       7   we represent a lot of nurses, and they all like to

       8   work 12 hours, but I can also tell you that one of

       9   our nurses who got HIV was on the 11th hour of her

      10   12-hour shift, from a needle stick injury.

      11              So, sometimes, you know -- so, you

      12   know --

      13              DR. MICHAELS:  But is there a right

      14   number of hours?  I mean, that's the question I'm

      15   asked on a regular basis.

      16              DR. BORWEGEN:  But also, you know, I'm

      17   curious as to whether or not these hours are

      18   voluntary or mandatory.  And I think that's a very

      19   important issue, that workers shouldn't feel

      20   obligated to work these longer hours in order to

      21   keep the job.

      22              So I think that it really needs to be a

                                                         79

       1   question -- we should have a position, the

       2   government should have a position that mandatory

       3   overtime is not acceptable, and that any worker

       4   who wants to work over 8 hours, it's a judgment

       5   call on that worker but it's not a requirement of

       6   the job.  I think that would be safer under this

       7   incredible heat stress condition.

       8              I just have one more point, which is

       9   kind of a --

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Bill, wait.  Hold the

      11   other point and let's come back to it, because

      12   there were some other hands, okay?

      13              I just want to -- Peg?

      14              MS. SEMINARIO:  Thank you very much.

      15              This, obviously, is a major challenge

      16   for both agencies, you know, clearly unexpected,

      17   and incredibly challenging.

      18              I have done a lot of work on the World

      19   Trade Center, as John knows, going back to, you

      20   know, September 11, 2001, and we have learned a

      21   lot from that experience.  And I think one of the

      22   things that we want to make sure that we do here

                                                         80

       1   is we learn from those lessons.

       2              There's also experience out of Exxon

       3   Valdez, with that particular oil spill.

       4              So one of the things that I think would

       5   be helpful is for both agencies to bring in some

       6   of the people who were involved and have been

       7   involved in those activities, just to look at some

       8   of these areas here, and to get some advice.

       9              And perhaps we can bring some of those

      10   folks in through this committee -- I don't know

      11   the best way to do that -- but to learn from that

      12   experience.

      13              And I think one of the things that the

      14   situation in New York at the World Trade Center

      15   taught us is that if we just look at permissible

      16   exposure limits, we're not going to protect

      17   people.

      18              And there's whole questions also about

      19   whether sampling individual hazards, individual

      20   chemicals, is going to really tell us what is the

      21   potential health impacts.

      22              And what is also needed as part of this

                                                         81

       1   system here is an ongoing active health

       2   surveillance system, to try and capture whatever

       3   reports are coming back from the workers and from

       4   the community, and following them up, but also

       5   getting some sense of what impacts.

       6              And while it may not tell you a lot

       7   about the chronic effects, if we had listened to

       8   people's health complaints in New York, maybe we

       9   wouldn't have 16,000 people now sick.

      10              And so I think the surveillance systems

      11   are really key.  And I'd like to get a little bit

      12   of information about what is being done to put in

      13   place a very active and robust health surveillance

      14   system as well.

      15              One of the groups, John, that you

      16   didn't mention, and I think they may be captured

      17   in perhaps the shoreline workers, are those

      18   workers who are involved in decontamination.

      19   Those are clearly different exposures than people

      20   picking up oil, and trying to get some sense from

      21   how many people are involved in each of these

      22   activities.

                                                         82

       1              And another question, and I know it's

       2   something that complicates the situation, is

       3   jurisdiction -- these people are working, some of

       4   them are on shore, some of them are offshore --

       5   and some better sense of who is responsible for

       6   the safety and health and oversight at the source

       7   and on the vessels that are in the water.

       8              And is OSHA there?  Is somebody there?

       9   It would seem that those people have a potential

      10   for higher exposures, and so that is, obviously, a

      11   real area of concern.

      12              Another issue which has, you know,

      13   raised concerns is the fact that OSHA has

      14   essentially waived the requirements of the

      15   HAZWOPER standard, strictly as training

      16   requirements, and limited the initial training to

      17   four hours.

      18              And what the rationale is for that, it

      19   would seem that a lot of these folks have the

      20   potential for some more significant exposures.

      21   This may be one of the biggest cleanups ever, and

      22   so it seems like there's a disjunction, in some

                                                         83

       1   ways, of having the biggest cleanup ever in the

       2   country, and then having the major standard that

       3   applies in those areas that came about as a result

       4   of the exposures initially at Love Canal because

       5   we weren't protecting people.  So that's another

       6   whole area, I think.

       7              And one last suggestion here in all of

       8   this.  Going to the OSHA web page, the EPA web

       9   page, the NIOSH web page, there's lots of

      10   information, but it's not connected.

      11              It's not connected to these exposure

      12   groups that Dr. Howard outlined, people that are

      13   working at the source, people that are working on

      14   a service control vessel.

      15              I think it would be really useful to,

      16   in short order, develop materials here that are

      17   speaking to these different exposure situations

      18   and potentials, and explaining what those are,

      19   explaining what the recommendations are for the

      20   training for those, what the recommendations are

      21   for addressing particular hazards, and the

      22   exposure information that is linked to those,

                                                         84

       1   because it's very hard to make those assessments.

       2              And I think one of the things that has

       3   happened is that, particularly in the public's

       4   mind, the media's mind, is that they're lumping

       5   all this together, and you have one health report,

       6   which is obviously serious and needs to be looked

       7   at, but then people think that everybody there is

       8   getting sick or at risk.

       9              And so I think having information, so

      10   that it isn't just the 20 OSHA staff, but it's

      11   other people who are on site, that there's a

      12   general understanding for each of these groups of

      13   workers of what the hazards are, and what the

      14   recommendations are, and what the information is

      15   showing, and that that is more transparent and

      16   readily available to health professionals, people

      17   in the states, other folks.

      18              Because right now, it's very, very hard

      19   to sort of wind your way through all of that.

      20   And, you know, I couldn't tell you, for these

      21   groups, knowing and spending a lot of time, of

      22   what the recommendations are, and what the

                                                         85

       1   potential exposures are, which exposure levels

       2   have been found with respect to these particular

       3   groups.

       4              So those are some thoughts, as well as

       5   some areas of question.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  I think it

       7   would be useful to point out that committee

       8   members can respond to each other, as well as

       9   having just back and forth between the committee

      10   and the two agency directors.

      11              So I know there are a couple of other

      12   hands up, Denise, and then Linda Rae.

      13              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Hi.  Denise

      14   Pouget, Assistant Chief with Alexandria Fire.

      15              I'm kind of dovetailing onto what you

      16   were saying as far as, like, having a system, and

      17   information available.

      18              And I can't help but think this is like

      19   a large hazardous materials incident, for me.  A

      20   huge amount of product --

      21              MS. SEMINARIO:  Right.

      22              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  -- and so

                                                         86

       1   forth, and the way that we would deal with it in

       2   the fire department would be to set up incident

       3   command, unifying command, and so forth, and

       4   everyone involved, obviously, the incident

       5   commander is responsible for.

       6              And absolutely respiratory protection

       7   and atmospheric or air monitoring would be the

       8   number one priority.  And in many cases, depending

       9   on whether you're in the hot zone or where you

      10   are, we're going to put people in level A suits

      11   and so forth.

      12              And so, I keep thinking, you know,

      13   respiratory exposure, just exposure by absorption

      14   and so forth.

      15              And just knowing from, you know, having

      16   colleagues -- I've been in this business for about

      17   30 years -- throughout the years that have passed

      18   from cancer.  And, typically, we die about 10

      19   years earlier than the average folks, as far as

      20   our occupation.

      21              So, with that, you know, I, too, share

      22   a serious concern for the respiratory exposure and

                                                         87

       1   just the exposure in general for these folks who

       2   have absolutely, probably, no idea what they're

       3   getting themselves into.

       4              And I would echo and say what --

       5              Is that Margaret?

       6              MS. SEMINARIO:  Peg.

       7              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Hi.

       8              You know, how she was saying that they

       9   should be informed at the different levels of

      10   exposure and so forth.

      11              But, I mean, I just can't help but

      12   think that it's like a large incident for me, that

      13   that -- I, too, share that, and recommend that the

      14   respiratory protection -- I was just jotting down

      15   some notes.

      16              One of the things that we do is we do

      17   fit testing, to make sure that the people are

      18   trained, they understand the respirators and all

      19   that.  I'm sure you know that, because we were

      20   required by you.

      21                       (LAUGHTER)

      22              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  And also,

                                                         88

       1   physicals on our folks, you know, to make sure

       2   that they can withstand that.

       3              So I guess the way I understand it is

       4   that, because of the nature and the huge disaster,

       5   that some of those requirements have been either

       6   not put into play yet, or reduced?  Is that how I

       7   understand it?

       8              DR. MICHAELS:  Well, they've been

       9   modified, based on experience and previous

      10   disasters.

      11              On the other hand, you know, it might

      12   not be inappropriate, you know, to move, as

      13   Dr. Howard said, for certain job categories,

      14   additional protections.

      15              That's one of the things that we have

      16   to look carefully at, and we hope to get some

      17   assistance from you on that.

      18              Obviously, there are people who walk

      19   along the beach with shovels, picking up weathered

      20   oil, and their requirements are very different

      21   than people who are driving boats through, you

      22   know, sheens and mechanically aerating chemical

                                                         89

       1   mixtures.

       2              But one thing worth noting --

       3              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Are the

       4   requirements different right now?

       5              DR. MICHAELS:  Well, they should be.

       6              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Right.

       7              DR. MICHAELS:  Well, they certainly

       8   have different --

       9              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Right.

      10              DR. MICHAELS:  Yeah.

      11              No, and we're trying to measure them

      12   right now.

      13              And that's exactly right.  But what

      14   we've done is, in some cases, pulled people and

      15   said, you can't go in certain areas and do this

      16   work.  And that's the easier thing to do,

      17   obviously.

      18              And that's what happened when we were

      19   in the situation of the first people being taken

      20   to the hospital, not actually hospitalized, the

      21   decision was made not to send boats into certain

      22   areas until we could get some more information.

                                                         90

       1   And that's obviously easier than putting people in

       2   respirators and say, okay, we can't do this work

       3   right now.

       4              But, there are a couple of points, I

       5   think, probably worth thinking about.  One is the

       6   concern that you have, and we share, when

       7   discussions are based on, are these levels -- not

       8   are they safe, but are they legal in terms of

       9   PELs.

      10              And we've tried to be very clear on our

      11   web site, and also talking to our federal

      12   partners, that we don't believe that thinking

      13   about PELs is appropriate in this setting.

      14              Most of the chemicals we're talking

      15   about either have no PELs, or the permissible

      16   exposure limit is outdated.

      17              And it's misleading to say, you know,

      18   well, it's well below -- you know, the level is

      19   well below the OSHA PEL, even though that's often

      20   on a former website, just to give people a context

      21   and say, where does the level fit in what we

      22   understand.

                                                         91

       1              But because we're not dealing with

       2   safety and health professionals, we don't want

       3   people to have a misleading understanding -- we

       4   don't want to mislead them and say, well, because

       5   it's one-tenth of the OSHA PEL, that means it's

       6   safe.

       7              And so if you look at -- we provide

       8   some materials for our website where we talk about

       9   what levels we found, and we actually were not

      10   listing our OSHA PELs on there.  And we try to

      11   make that clear to other agencies as well, that,

      12   you know, we're not using PELs.

      13              If we moved into enforcement on these

      14   issues, obviously the PELs would come into

      15   consideration, because we can't issue citations

      16   around exposure if the exposure is below the PEL.

      17              But that's a later discussion.

      18              It's worth spending a minute on

      19   jurisdiction.  And, again, this is one that's

      20   impacted by the sort of decision to be in

      21   primarily compliance assistance mode.

      22              Because we are not issuing citations,

                                                         92

       1   our position is, we are trying to help BP and help

       2   the other agencies, so we don't limit ourselves to

       3   simply what we have legal jurisdiction over.

       4              We, obviously, can't -- you know, the

       5   jurisdiction of OSHA stops at the three-mile

       6   territorial limit, or coastal waters.  So we

       7   couldn't consider issuing a citation beyond that.

       8              On the other hand, that doesn't stop us

       9   from going on the boats, doing measurements,

      10   making statements about what exposures are,

      11   because our concern is protecting workers.

      12              And so, just so you know, though, our

      13   jurisdiction covers the cleanup workers on the

      14   land, and within vessels within the coastal

      15   limits, three miles on uninspected vessels.

      16              And so certain Coast Guard vessels we

      17   don't cover -- or Coast Guard inspected vessels we

      18   don't cover.

      19              But, for the most part, the vessels of

      20   opportunity, as they're called, these are

      21   shrimpers, fishermen, whose vessels have been

      22   hired, are generally covered by OSHA within the

                                                         93

       1   three miles.

       2              They often do not stay within three

       3   miles, obviously.  You know, it's ridiculous to

       4   draw a distinction between the coverage they get

       5   in the first three miles and the coverage they get

       6   at four miles off the coast, but that is the

       7   jurisdiction.

       8              In addition, I think it's worth noting

       9   for the record that public sector employees, who

      10   work for either states, counties, municipalities

      11   or parishes, in those four states affected,

      12   formerly do not have OSHA coverage.  And there are

      13   quite a few public sector, local and state

      14   employees, who have been employed in the cleanup

      15   operations, because OSHA -- federal OSHA does not

      16   cover state and municipal workers.  We don't

      17   officially cover them.

      18              Again, we don't look at them any

      19   differently right now from other workers, but if

      20   we were in a situation of issuing citations to

      21   employers, we would not be able to issue a

      22   citation to their employer, because we have no

                                                         94

       1   coverage.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thanks.  Linda.

       3              DR. MURRAY:  I have some questions and

       4   then some general comments.

       5              I was asking the chief here, aren't

       6   there rules, when we fight forest fires,

       7   et cetera, in terms of heat and length of work, et

       8   cetera.  And she was reminding me of my FEMA

       9   training.  I always forget that there are

      10   operational periods.

      11              So I would look there, and certainly

      12   internationally, to ask, you know, what do the

      13   operational periods say in a forest fire, which

      14   comes very close, in terms of a lot of physical

      15   work, with respiratory equipment and stuff, in

      16   terms of trying to find something shorter than 14

      17   hours.

      18              And also, the reason I mention forest

      19   fires is because in that setting, unlike, say, a

      20   residential fire or an industrial fire, the

      21   operational periods may last, you know, months,

      22   weeks and months, which is what we're looking at

                                                         95

       1   here.

       2              So I wanted to make some comments.  And

       3   even though I can't explain all the details of

       4   what's going on there, and I know what's on the

       5   news and the perception is wrong, I mean, I know

       6   that, and I'm sure on the Coast Guard boats and

       7   that.

       8              But, nonetheless, in our field, in

       9   public health in general, and certainly in

      10   governmental work, we tend to stay too much in

      11   silos.

      12              And so I think one of the real issues

      13   that Peg was mentioning, for a worker or anybody

      14   to have to go to four or five or six or ten

      15   different websites to find information is a little

      16   distressing.

      17              And what kind of information they find

      18   is even more distressing, because it's not always

      19   tailored.

      20              But I had not had the sense, either in

      21   the area of workers' protection or many other

      22   areas, that things are truly coordinated.

                                                         96

       1              So as you say, there's a bunch of local

       2   health departments there, there's state health

       3   departments there, you know, there's 20 million or

       4   so federal departments there, and there's not a

       5   sense of cohesiveness.

       6              I'm assuming, though I don't know, it's

       7   in the news, I'm assuming there's an incident

       8   command, but I don't really know that there's a

       9   coordinated incident command.

      10              But even if there is, that doesn't

      11   always really translate on the ground to really

      12   cooperative work.

      13              And so, to me, in addition to

      14   protecting the workers, and in fact part of

      15   protecting the workers in this setting, because

      16   you have so many workers, and you're going to have

      17   increasing numbers of volunteers, and you have

      18   community residents that are there on those

      19   beaches, you know, that are not called workers, I

      20   think it's critical that we really have a broader

      21   public health approach and response to this, so

      22   that there's a website for the Gulf spill, so

                                                         97

       1   that, you know, if I'm a resident down there, and

       2   my kid is going to the beach, there might be some

       3   advice about what they should do about those tar

       4   balls.  You know, are they collecting them in

       5   their wagon and bringing them home, or what?

       6              There needs to be clear cooperation

       7   with state, which I suspect is going on at some

       8   level, but especially with the local public health

       9   departments, in terms of what kind of advice can

      10   they give the residents there.  What kind of

      11   advice and support can we give volunteers, which,

      12   you know, like I said, are already working, but

      13   will continue to work even more.

      14              And I have not heard, in either your

      15   remarks or in general, lessons from other parts of

      16   the world that have had similar situations, not

      17   only our historic lessons, which certainly are

      18   plentiful, but other parts of the world, in

      19   approaches to this.

      20              So I guess, my major advice is -- and I

      21   know this is hard in the heat of the moment, but,

      22   you know, we've been there now for six weeks, or

                                                         98

       1   whatever it's been, so now is the time to begin,

       2   not to face workers or the public as OSHA and

       3   NIOSH, and expect us to remember who has what,

       4   and, you know, this is a Coast Guard jurisdiction

       5   and not OSHA.  You know, that's not what we want

       6   the public and workers to worry about.

       7              We sort of need a coordinated face that

       8   says, here are the major health and safety issues

       9   for people that are in this now; here are the

      10   long-term concerns; here are the --

      11              Certainly the role of EPA in public

      12   education is critical.  I know they're there, but

      13   I didn't hear you all mention that.

      14              So, to me, there really has to be a

      15   breaking down of our traditional public health

      16   silos, and paying more attention to really taking

      17   care of the patient, which in this case are all

      18   those communities, and the ocean and the fish, and

      19   all that other stuff.

      20              So, I guess that's my major concern and

      21   lesson.

      22              I'm glad to hear that you're ignoring

                                                         99

       1   some of the jurisdictional problems in terms of at

       2   least looking at the workers.  So that's a good

       3   thing, but I think that spirit could be brought

       4   even beyond that, and we would have a different

       5   kind of message that we're sending to people.

       6              And the last thing I want to say, and,

       7   you know, I know this is hard, but I really want

       8   to encourage you to remember our roots and

       9   remember the pump handle lesson, okay?

      10              And so we may not know exactly what the

      11   right number of hours to work out there in, you

      12   know, 100-degree weather, but let's just guess,

      13   let's just say six.  You know, let's say

      14   something.

      15              And let us think about other mechanisms

      16   of -- you know, clearly from the company's point

      17   of view, there's a question of cost.

      18              But, you know, what if they set up, you

      19   know, trailers with air conditioning and rest

      20   areas, and you know, just -- you know, a truck

      21   driver can't drive 14 hours, theoretically,

      22   without rest.

                                                         100

       1              So, you know, let's just pick an

       2   operational period, and if people look too tired,

       3   shorten it, you know, and be honest with people

       4   and say, we don't know exactly what the right

       5   measure is, but any idiot knows 14 hours a day,

       6   seven days a week is absurd.  So let us try

       7   something else.

       8              Now, the last thing I want to say, and

       9   let me try to say this, because this is a public

      10   setting, so let me think carefully how to say

      11   this:

      12              What I have heard in the media from our

      13   leadership, starting with President Obama, Lisa

      14   Jackson, and all of the state and federal

      15   officials that I've heard in the media, what they

      16   have said is, the responsibility of government is

      17   to make sure that the health of the public is

      18   protected, and we're going to hold BP responsible.

      19              What I thought of, when I heard those

      20   remarks, is this gives us, in health and safety,

      21   who usually have no resources to do what needs to

      22   be done, extraordinary opportunity to do things in

                                                         101

       1   a different way.  Because what our leadership has

       2   said is, we're going to protect the environment

       3   and the people, and British Petroleum is going to

       4   pay.

       5              So, to me, we should begin looking at a

       6   study that looks at appropriate workmanships.  You

       7   know, we have enough people there to do that.

       8   Let's put some trailers -- let's do some

       9   innovative things, since at this moment in

      10   history, British Petroleum is paying.

      11              We should, after this disaster, be able

      12   to advance our field, and we should have a better

      13   idea of, not what to do in emergencies, but how to

      14   change some of our regulations, how to prevent

      15   some of the things that happen.

      16              And I know right now we're in a cleanup

      17   phase.  I don't want us to forget how we got here,

      18   so that's a whole other discussion for another

      19   day.