Is] we didn t create it. We didn t ask for it. We didn t ~ 61 even get a chance to vote to say yeah, we want this in ( 71 our community. It happened. It s a historical kind of la] thing that happened. And now Congress is taking the [ Q] attitude that if WC ignore it, it will just go away. If Ii01 we say there are no more Superfund sites, there are no [ III more Superfund sites. hnd yet these sites continue to ~ 121 exist. Wc continuing to find them, and we know the need I131 lo clean them up.

( 141 Next slide, please. We want to talk about once ( 151 WC get them on the NPL how do we prioritize which ones 1161 get cleaned up firsl. Well if I m sitting by a site and ~ 171 that site is exposing me everyday, I want it cleaned up pa] yesterday That s only natural.

IrQl Siting decisions we have to recognize lack [ zo] democracy. The facilities that are in African American ( 211 communities  I m going to confine my comments more to / [ zz] Acrican American communities, because that s what I .

I Page 561 [ II really. really know. The siting in African American 121 hcilities especially in the South occurred at a time 131 when African Americans couldn t vote, had absolutely no ( 41 voice in government. And decisions were made totally Is] without our input. We watched these facilities grow in [ s] our communities. We suffered as they did whatever they , 171 did and poisoned us. We watched as they shutdown and [ a] became abandoned. And now we ve got these filthy sites / [ Q] silting there in our communities still exposing us, and [ io] nothing s being done. We re getting sick.

[ ill In America if we are really and truly about [ IZI democracy, if WC do believe in justice, we have a 1131 national moral obligation to clean up these sitcs. And ~ 141 here we are at a time in history when WC re trying so [ ISI hard to export democracy. So, we te over in Iraq I[ 161 supposedly exporting democracy and exposing a tyrant and [ I71 uncovering mass graves, well we ve got some graves in our [ is] community too. And we ve got a lot of people lying in jr91 those groves that died from chemical poisoning. Now,

( 201 Lois may sound emotion to you. Yes, it is emotion and I [ z:] made no apologizes fbr that, because you set the lost of 122; human lift is tragic and emotionaLAnd the loss of

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[ 21 So, we have to remember to keep human health.

p] We have to keep that human face in this entire process [ 4] and stop sanitizing it, and talking in parts per billion.

[ s] We need to be talking about human lives lost, and human [ s] function impaired. And I might mention further, friends,

[ n that we Environmental Justice activists are traveling.

[ a] We are going out of this country to other countries, such [ s] as Mexico, Holland, Japan, Russian, and even China. And [ IO] when we got to these places and we sit down and just talk [ 1 I] person to person and tell our stories, and we don t have [ IZJ to varnish it. Just teIl the plain simple truth. What ~ 131 we are showing is a failure ofAmerican justice and a [ 14] failure ofAmerican democracy. And what do think those [ is] people are going to want? Are they going to want [ is] American democracy and justice when they see what we vc [ 17] got? I don t think so.

ItJJl Next slide, please. One of the characteristics [ 19] of EJ communities is that we have been so badly [ zo] marginahzed. Local government, slate governments, even [ zi] EPA, Federal government, has attempted to marginalized ~ 221 us. One way they do it is by caIIing us names. Now,

Page 563 ~ Page 564 111 contamination was an active hazardous waste facility.

[ z] EPA and DEQ both sat back for years while this facility [ 3] continued to operate and make b& ions of doIlars. They [ 4] never ordered them to clean up that kike. FinaLly, they [ q closed down.

Fl There are other companies, a secession 01 [ 7] companies, that have bought that property.` I` hal waste is [ a] still sitting there in that lake. Now that these [ g] companies are facing bankruptcy all of a sudden my slate lo] is interested in gelling this site on NPL. We can t i I] depend on states to have a poiitical process, or the 121 attitude, or the philosophy to help get sites on the NPL.

131 The governors of our state have for the last better than 141 10 years rejected the concept of Superfund sites. And is] it s only been in this last year that we ve begun lo see IS] an interest that oh, yeah, we rc going to try to get that 171 site listed.

[ I] these are some of the names I know we ve been called.

[ z] Impedamist economic development, obstructionists. And [ 3] then there other names I don t even know what we ve been [ 4] called. But here s the other thing. We have been [ 5] called, or rather our illnesses have been completely [ 6] ignored. Because it s not in the textbook. It s not in [ A the textbook the chemicals at this level cause health [ a] problems. So, the health problems that I suffer, it s [ g] ail in my head. You see it could not have happened at [ lo] the level of exposure that I allegedly received. Thdt ~ 111 the monitors  tcchnoloy here and its limitations

[ 12] that these monitors said I had received.

( 131 So, when people from my community come and say,

1141 but we re sick. If it s a bad day, they say you re ( 151 hypochondriacs or something worse. If it s a good day,

[ 16] they say, oh, but that s only anecdotal.

[ I71 Next slide, please. We have to be concerned [ ia] about the listing of NPL sites. We re sitting on a site [ I$] right now in the community of Alson that was recognized ( 201 in I986 as being contaminated with various heavy metals.

1211 chlorinated hydrocarbons, and PCBs. Thc facility that ,221 was identified as having dumped that  the source of the [ 181 Next slide, pl*. I think that the Federal [ 19] government has b role to play. It plays a role in ~ 201 education to mahe sure that all of America s children arc [ zi] properly educat4. It plays a role in the criminal ~ 221 justice system to bake sure that people get their rights  7.

Page 565 [ i] there. And I think it should also be playing a role in [ 2] the environment. I don t think it should matter if I [ 3] live in Louisiana or the great stale of Massachusetts. I [ 4] have right to a clean enviromnent. And there are certain [ 5] minimum standards that we should ail be able lo enjoy.

L61 Public participation. We ve not experienced [ 7] public participation in the past. In fact, what we arc [ a] clearly suffering is taxation without representation.

[ q That s been the history of my community ol` communitics in [ ro] the South.

[ I 11 Next slide, please. Now wc re beginning lo talk ~ 121 about let s involve the community. So, what do WC war11 Ii31 to do? We re saying okay, when are we going lo bring in ~ 141 public participation? How early should be bring in ( 151 public participation? The history of things has been [ 16] that after all the decisions are made, lhcn you brml: in [? 71 the public and you tell them what decisions have been ( 181 made. And EPA has been very much a part of this process ( 191 As a matter of fact, right now my silt  and I have to 1201 admit the site, Petro Processors in Alson; is ; I littlc 1211 bit unique. It was one of the carlicsl listed silts, and [ zz] the decision was made by : 1 Fcdcral judge. EPA s cxcusc Page562 Page565 C68) Min U Script@

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Page 566 Page 568 [ I] is that, well the judge makes that decisionYes, they [ I] remedies that we can come up with is institutional [ z] make that decision, but they make that decision with your [ z] controls. While we set up institutional controls, the ; 3] input and the input from the scientists from the [ a] sites sit there and just get worse. They don t get ~ 41 Superfund site. You need to have community input before ~ 41 better. And the cost, the fmancial cost, ultimately to [ s] you give your input. So, we should still be able to have ( 51 clean up the site, not to mention the human cost, just [ 6] that public participation. [ 6] sore. Now what we te seeing here is a still existing [ 7! Next slide, please. What we want is real public [ fl institutional control in the state of Louisiana in the ( 81 participation. Again, by the time we get to the table, [ s] Bayou of' Baton Rouge, Devil Swamp Lake. And what they [ 91 local government, EPA, and the local regulating agency, [ g] did was they waited for the lowest water level of the 1101 have already kind of come together with things. Well, we [ IO] year, and then they go out and they put in sign. And 11 I] need to stop this. Wc need to get in on the ground [ i 11 [ hey put the sign so it s just barely over the water Ii 21 floor. [ IZI level. So [ hat 80 percent of the year, the sign is under 1131 Next slide, please. We don t want public [ is] water. That s an institutional control.

114) participation to be public manipulation. I ve been 1141 The other kinds of institutional controls where [ IF,] preaching this for better than 10 years. Rut still we 1151 it s written in deeds, no schools on this site, no 1161 have some processcs, ATSDR is notorious for it. [ i6] subdivisions, no residences on this site. If I remember ~ 171 Sometimes EPA does this. It decides it s going to have ~ 171 correctly, that s how Love Canal got started. There are 11 e] CAP. And then it decides who sits on that CAP from the [ ie] numerous instances around this country where so called [ 19] community. You cannot pick our leaders from our [ 19] institutional controls said this land is never to be used po] conlm~ lnity.` I'li: lt s our role. We have to say who 1201 for playgrounds, for schools, or for residences. And [ zi] represents our community, and who sits on that CAP and [ ZI] somebody drops the balI somewhere down the line some 20 [ 22) who speaks fbr us. [ 22] years later people are living on it, and people are   Page 567 Page 569 1' 1 Next slide, please. I think WC need a national [ 21 environmental policy. But what should that environmental [ 3] policy be? And the way it is now it s better much the 141 government can do anything, I mean the industry can do [ 5] anylhing of the world it wants to as long as it gives [ 6] public participation. That is, as long as we the [ 7! opportunity to speak. It docsn 1 necessarily mean 181 anybody is listening.

PI Ncxl slide, plcase. When we speak out, you have io] to rcmcmbcr WC were there belhre the site. We were when ii] the came. We were there during it s operating days. And rz] WC there when it got to be abandoned. We re experts on 131 that site. We may not speak in parts per billion. We 141 may not have all the technical expertise, but WC know

is] what went on in that site. And we know what s still 161 going on. Wc know what s going on at night after you go 171 homc So, WC have to have  our input has to really ` R] valuctl.

191 Ucxt slide, plcase. We rc going to talk about 201 ` ionic rcmcdics. What arc some rcmcdics wc defiitely want 2i) to : kvr, irl?

271 Next slide, please. One of the worst kind of II] getting sick.

PI Institutional controls is something we need to 131 get rid of. We need to attack these sites. We need to 141 get them cleaned up.

PI Next slide, please. Whether we re taikmg about I .. [ G] mcga sites or multiple sites, we re often talking about 171 African American communities or Hispanic communities [ a] People of color communities.

PI Next slide, p1ease. Thi. s is a picture of my [ IO] community and all those little white boxes represent [ III industries or waste sites in that community of 1,500 ~ 121 people. We have a swamp. Nine square miles of it are [! 3] contamindted.?` hey re trying to say it s clean. It s [ 14] not clean. Is it clean enough for us go out there and 1151 swim in like we used to? Is it clean enough for us to [ is] eat the fish whenever we need to eat the fish from it? I [ 17] don t think so.

ll61 Next slide, please. We gave up supposedly human [ ig] sacriticc a long time ago, but, next slide, please.

[ zo] IIuman sacrilice is alive and well in the United States.

: ZI] They rc called sacrifice communities. Where communities I[ 221 such as Alson are forced to bear the environmental _ I__..

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[ 4] Now how do we want to be compensated? Doris, mentioned [ 5] last night, people think we want to get rich. No, we [ s] don t want to get rich. What we want is basics. We want ~ 1 our health needs to be taken care of. Our health has 18~ been damaged. We want our health needs taken care of.

[ g] And we want the site cleaned up so that we aren t exposed [ lo] any further.

[ iI1 Next slide, please. We re using science

[ IZ] here s the basic fault of the whole process. We [ ia] supposedly are using science, but science is very [ 14] demanding in terms of what you can use it, how you can [ is] use it. Two of the weakest are limitations of science of [ 16] the simple fact that number one, you ve got to have some ~ 171 knowledge. And number two, you got to have the right 11 a] technology. We couldn t really examine the moon until we 1191 had the right kind of telescopes to do it. [ I] you look and say whoops, we made a mistake. They were / [ 2] right. But we re not ( inaudible) aIready. This is Pctro [ 3] Processor s burning. It used to catch fiie [ 4l spontaneously. Who could have ever predicted that?

El Next slide, pIease. There are lots of other [ 6] environmenlaI uncertainties that risk simply can 1 deal [ 7] with. And this what we ve got to get away from lhis [ a] risk. What s our cumulative exposure? And what are its [ g] effects? I don t even want to mention the dirty word 01 [ IO] synergism, and I know you don t want to hear it. But it ~ [ II] exists. And how do we deal with lhat? And then there s ~ ( 121 aII those other individual factors of humans.

PO1 Those are some of the limitations of science.

[ zi] We ve got to understand that. And then when it comes lo [ 22] environmental sciences, their pitfall, main pi& II, is [ 131 Next slide, please. So, risk assessment is in ~ [ 14] essence what we call a death assessment. Next slide.

[ 151 If we re going to have justice in America, and [ I 61 if we re going to have clean communities, wc vc got lo [ i 71 have Superfund. Thank you.

[ ial ( Applause.)

[ 191 MS. McCLAIN: Our next speaker will be Mr.

[ 20] Charles IJtIey. Actually, you can hold the applause. Our [ 21] next speaker wiU be Mr. Charles Utley from Augusta,

1221 Georgia.

Page 571 / Page 573 [ I] we don t have controlled environments. How can you do a [ 2] controlled experiment on a community Iike Alson?

[ 31 Next slide, please. We have been exposed to aII 141 manner of chemicals. We ve been exposed at different [ 5] levels. Not everybody in the chemical has been exposed [ s] at the same level. Not everybody in the community and

[ 7] next slide, please. Not everybody in the community has [ e] the same level of sensitivities.

191 The model that we use now is called risk ( 101 assessment, or risk. And risk  I once defined risk [ 1 I] before Congressional committee as decisions based on ~ 121 ignorance made by those who don t have to Iivc with them.

~ 131 Of the 75,000 or more chemicals in constant production [ 14] and use in America today, fewer than 1 percent have been [ is] studied to any real degree. And as far as I m concerned,

[ r~ l none have been studied adequately to say this chemical is ~ 171 safe and is safe at this level for people. It s just not [ ia] there. The science is not there.

1191 So, we re extrapolating and making conjectures [ XI] from very limited knowledge. And then people such as ~ 211 myself and the people lhat you see sitting at lhis table [ 22] have to Live with those decisions. Some 20 years later 111 MR. UTLEY: Good evening. I am here primarily [ 2] because there is a need. A need for  in business is [ 3] either right or it s wrong. And you re in a position to [ 4l make those types of decisions. Right and wrong. It s [ s] wrong to assume a community because of its locale,

[ 6] because of its make up, because of economic development [ 7] It s wrong to think that they have no riced or no care.

[ a] So, a company or a companies can come in and dump and [ g] have no responsibility.

1' 01 And I open with that because I come from a [ I 11 community that is bridged between NPI. sites, Fcdcrnl [ 12] facility SKS. Powerful, strong NPL sites. Dynamite SRS.

[ 13] But it s wrong to dump on communitiesAnd let me just 1141 say it s wrong to think that conlamination knows who s iL ,[ 15] dumping on. And I say that because when we look at [ is] environmental justice and we look at who you re hearing [ 17] now you only see people of color. But I m here to tell [ ie] you that I represent this afternoon haIf of my [ I91 community s poor white.

WI And we all live across the railroad lracks. Wc ( 211 aII grew up together. But il s wrong to think that al [ 22] some point these communities do no1 come logcthcr. For Page 570  Page 573 ( 70) Min U Script@ For The Record, Inc.  ( 301) 870 8025 NACEPT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS __.~  NEW BEDFORD, MA June l& ZOO3 ~ 11 it was the poor white community that came to me. To [ z] inform me that they were being offered a silent payoff by [ q a potlutant. Were you getting your share, too?

c41 It s wrong when we think that people don t care ( 51 about their children because of their needs and their ( 61 assessment, because they have so many SSTs. For those of [ 7] you who are not familiar that, that is Student Support [ a] Team IMeetings. Because Johnny just can t learn.

P: It s wrong to think that no one is going to say [ lo] anything because it s a Federal government, but I [ I 11 hcsltant to tell you today it s up to you to make it [ iz] right. You have the awesome responsibility to make it ~ 131 right. And I have to say it because when I look at my 1141 own community, when I look at Augusta, Georgia, the home [ lq of the Masters, I m not going to make it women s issues [ 16] bcc:~ usc that s not my issue and I was called on that. My ( 171 issue was contamination.

[ I81 When you look at the Masters, you see this 1191 glorious, this magnificent course, but only go through [ ZOI Jlyde J'ark to get to it. Jled carpet tour means that ( 21; industries come in and they II give them a11 the pz] attributes of a nice lovely city, but we had to block the Page 575 111 airJ> ort in order to get our point across. You must go [ z] through Jiydc J'ark. 13ut you have to make it right.

PI And I m just puzzled even as I sit here today is 141 how can we assume second hand smoke and put a price on ( 51 it? ` l'ct WC' have ; I'J` SI> H and JiPA who come in and see I have [ s] 248 known deaths. No assumption. Ilead bodies. But yet [ 7l you tell me I don t know how it could have happened. But [ a] yet WC have to make something wrong right.

PI And when we look at even our President has said,

[ io] no child left behind in education. What about no ( i I] community left behind in environmental justice? When I [ 12l look at all of the otllcr things that WC can assume, and 1131 cvcn in the last two weeks in my own neighborhood there [ 14] was two new sites. One was in Allen JIolmes, which is a [ is] neighborhood project.` J'he other wasTrinity CME Church :` 6] community. But rhc good news was that they made it 1171 right. Jixxon said I did it. Atlanta J. ight and Company : 1a] said I did it.

1191 J% ut had they not stood up and made it right, and [ XI! JXKI WC not taken a stand anal made what s wrong right by 12 II doing what IS right to another ~ xoplr. J3y not Jrolding 1721 J> ollutcrs :~ r~ co~ intahJc. You think you have an NPI. list Page 576 [ I] now, just wait and see. When the news get out and 121 accountability stops, you ll have more than you ever 131 think you 11 have. Because there s no accountability.

[ 41 How to make it right is to make the right [ sl decisions. How to make it right is to stand and stand [ q boldly and proclaim that I m going to stand for what is 171 right. Make the suggestions that would make it right.

[ a] Stand do what is right because it s in your hands as a [ q subcommittee to make that decision.

[ jOI I go to many tablesAnd if you notice, I hold [ I 11 two roles. One is, I m chair of the Brownfields [ IZ] commission. And I can teJJ you now it wasn t by the ,113~ city s choice. I chair that commission because the city 1141 of Augusta didn t even know what a Brownfields was, but [ is1 through the help of God I needed some help. So, I got a ( 161 letter inviting me to a meeting in Pittsburgh. Turned [ rr] out to be a thing cllled Brownfields.

~ I181 I went back and asked the mayor would you just I191 sign if I could get this project called a Brownfields.

[ zo] Mayor ( inaudible) said if you sign it, you write it, I ll ~ 211 sign it. Come to pass he was out of office. The next [ zq mayor came in, I asked him the same thing. We told me if ____.

Page 577 ( 11 you write it, I 11 sign it.

( 21 I went back and I pulled the community together 1 131 and I said I think this may be a way out. But we have a 141 $ 700 tnillion suit against Southern Peak now. We come to 151 meetings in little hitty trucks like mine and they come [ 6] in leer jcts. That s been going on about 12 years. But [ 71 I said I think we have some release.

PI And what happened was that we wrote the grant ( 91 and it s the only Federal Brownfields grant ever written [ IO] by a community and funded. But it shocked even the city [ I i] of Augusta, because they said aJJ we need you for, you [ IZ] being a preacher, is just be our advisor. So, then I had [ 13l to show them that I not onJy was preacher, but I came [ IJ] from across the tracks. So, I had to go in and pull in 1151 the political arena when I shouldn t have to do that.

1161 Simply brcausc to make something right that wanted to be [ t ij wrong.

JW WC have now one of the best cleanup sites, but [ IQ] yet we have a lot of sick people. Coming to the table ( 201 and talking is good, but we have come to table with an ( 211 action plan. And otic of the principals of Environmental i ~ 221 Justice. number sewn says that WC demand the right of For The Record, Inc.  ( 301) 870 8025 Min U Script@ 01) Page 574  Page 577 Page 57% ~~

Page 580 [ I] participation as equal partners in ever level of decision [ z] making. Including those assessments, planning,

131 implementation, and also evaluation. And I m here to [ 4] tell you I m here to evaluate you. I want to make sure ls] that you re doing what you need to be doing to make it 161 right. I don t come with a big gun to scare anybody. I [ 7] only come to tell you that you have a lot of 131 responsibility. And this is, you must stand and bc 131 woman. Stand and be men. Not only for my community, but [ IO] for the sake of aII generations to come. [ I] Corporation and Hands Across the River here in New [ 2] Bedford. Several others. I ve worked on the Escambia [ 3] Superfund Site, the Del Amo Superhtnd Site, the Montrosc [ 4] Superfund Site, Lhe Newsome Brothers Superfund Site, and [ 5] the BayView Hunters Point Superfund Site in San [ 6] Francisco.

[ I 11 For I got a notice in my mail with my water bill [ IZ] last week. And in closing it said to me that I want you 1131 to be aware that we have found that there is [ 14] contamination in your drinking water. I simply closed [ is] the letter up and as a matter of fact I shredded it.

[ WI That s all you need to look at where you re pumping from.

113 You re pumping it from Southern Wood Piedmont Well out by [~ a] 56. When I brought that to the commission some 10 years ( 191 ago you thought it was only for that geographical area,

[ zo] and you kept on drinking.

1211 Buthnhere to tell you it knows no race,

1221 creed, or colorAll it knows is death and destruction.  L71 There are many people in the environmental [ a] justice community that think they see Lhe handwriting on [ a] the wallThey think they see all funding going Lo IO] Brownfields and no matter how much smoke and mirrors you I I] use to mess with the numbers, Superfund is getting less 121 and Brownfields is getting more, and it s going toward 131 redevelopment. And so there are many people in the 141 Environmental Justice community that see lhis 151 subcommittee as having been organized to organize the 161 deck tiers on theTitanic. There are people in lhe 171 Environmental Justice comm~ tnity that believe that 1.31 someone, somew rl crc in that great conspiratorial them have 191 decided that both Superfund and Environmental Justice s 201 day is done, it s Li/ nc is gone.

211 But 1 want you to understand that Superftmd and 221 Environmental Justice are two concepts that are Page 579 Page 581 111 Either we fur it now making something right that s very Lz] wrong, or we suffer the consequences in life to come.

( 31 Thank you, very much.

( 41 MS. McCLAIN: Our next speaker will be Michael IS] from the great state of New Jersey.

161 MR. LYTHCOTT: Can you all hear me?

I; 1 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get a little closer.

PI MR. LYTHCOTT: It s always a pleasure for me to 131 come back to New Bedford. I was born in Boston, but this [ lo] really my ancestral home. My grandparents are buried [ ii] here [' 21 It s also an honor to be invited to speak Lo ~ 131 you, because I feel your pain. I m an consultant in [ 14] private practice in New Jersey. I ve dedicated myself to [ IS] working the issues where the rubber meets Lhc road. So,

[ 16] I vc worked the issue of fence line between the community [ 17] and the contaminated site for the operating facility.

[ IE] So, as a consultant I have worked for, among others, Dow 1191 Cl~ cmicaI, Shell Oil, Texaco, Continental Oil, FENA,

[ 20] DuPont. I ve also worked directly for CiLizens Against ] zt] Toxic Exposure in Pensacola, Del Amo Action Committee in [ 22] Los Angeles, the Old Bedford Village Development [ q] inextricably woven. As has been mcnlioned to you before I [ z] because of segregation, because of zoning laws that were [ 3] made with no community participation, because of the [ 4] disenfranchisement of communities, Lhe majority of pcoplc [ s] who live next to NPL sites ate poor people and people 01 161 color. And so when Environmental Justice becomes, oh p] it s a difficult subject, oh it s so touchy. Well it 131 sounds like quotas to me, because when your rubber meets [ 3] the road, when you decide who s going to get the money Lo ( IO] cleanup, and you re going to hdve to decide whelher or [ I I] not EJ equals a bump up compared Lo another site equally [ 12] as dirty that s not an EJ communiLy, Lhc rubber s going [ 13] to meet the rodd. And somebody s going to say it s [ 14] quotds. There s a feeling in the kdnd that there is an [ Ls] agenda afooL Lo dcnudc, rcconslruct Superfund [ I61 And the reasons why your jobs are dillicull is [ 17] because  I guess you ve noticed  is you rc taking [ ia] your time. Yeah, yore rc being paid by your corporations [ iq to be here. Thdt s hnc. Rut you rc taking your lime [ 20] out of  you could be writing a report Lo be hcrc And [ 21] you like to look at Lhis think dispassionately. You like [ 22] to look at it logically Y~ LI like Lo say, well whal s Page 578 Page 581 ( 72) in U Script@ ForTheRecord, Inc,  ( 3Ql) 870 8025 NACEPT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS NEW BEDFORD, MA June l& ZOO3 Page 582 ..~

Page 584 [ I] withrn the realm of what s doable in terms of the 121 legislation. What s the mandate? What s the funding 131 parameters? Let s make it real clear and technical and ( 41 get something done, and then you re comforted with these 151 people who have feelingsThat s because ail of us [ 6] sitting here  they tell me living in New Jersey  I 171 found the built in 1740 in Marlboro, New Jersey. And it [ a] happens to be, well kind of near Burnt Fly. But they say [ 9] in New Jersey you can t even find a house that s further [ ia] than 10 milts from a Superhind site.

1111 So, I m tired, we rc tired, of people getting [ tz] together who have the opportunity to influence policy to ( 131 sit around Ihe table and argue about who shot John. Did ( 141 he get shot with a .45 or was it a .38? John has been [ is] shot. John is at OLIN l'eet blceding. And the question is 1161 what are we going to do about John? What are we going to 117) do ;~ bout Superfund? What are we going to do about these [ rel communities?

I' 91 Now, community involvement is critical. If any [ zo] of you arc not clear why early and mcaningl'ul community [ zr] involvement is important during decision making, the [ zz] planning, before the RMI, the land use decisions, in [ i] I% edford. Now, it s not a plaque. If I m the mayor of a ~ 21 city and I m looking at a Superfund redevelopment ( 31 project, or a Brownfields redevelopment project and I m ~ 41 trying to think what is in the best interest of my [ sl community, I ll make certain decisions. But the ( 61 Environmental Justice communities want you to know that [ 71 there is a difference between community and near 181 neighbor. So that when you read the word community, WC 191 want it lo bc saying near neighbor. Because as it will [ IO] come as no surprise to you what is of the best interest [ i 11 to the city council of a metropolitan area is not [ IZ] necessarily in the best interest of the neighborhood that [ 13] has borne the brunt of the pollution in the first place.

I[ 141 And they ve disenfranchised. But, weIl we talked to ~ 151 their assemblymen. Yeah, you know, and I think we had ' [ i6] our people at the call center make a couple of calls.

[ ITI That s not meaningful community involvement.

1181 Superlund also provides for what s called the [ i9] technical assislance grant to go to a community. Part of ( 201 the notion behind community involvement is that if' you re ~ 211 talking about parts per million, or you re talking about [ zz] dredging the beloved ( inaudible), and you really do want Page 583 Page 585 111 terms of the community involvement in assessing the [ I] to do good community involvement. And you ask a ( 21 progress in a sense of completion of the sites. And [ zl neighborhood residence to come and participate with you : a] cspccially in terms of redevelopment relocation, then you [ 3] if they don t know how to translate the technical jargon.

141 need to ask questions of LIS during the period of lime [ 4] If they don t know how to interpret the reports. If they is] when WC will bc interacting. (: ommunity involvement is [ 5] don t know what you left out and ain t telling them, then 16) critical. It s critical for a lot of reasons, but not 171 the Icast of which is that within the agencies and within ! 8] the I'RP community if thcrc is in fact some effort done at [ 9] facilitating meaningful community involvement, there will [ IO] be a learning curve. We will not keep making the same ! i I] mistakes rhal WC re making. So make sure that you keep [ iz] and srrcnglhcn the community involvcmcnt.

[` Z Now, lirst thing yolk have to do is define [ I.$] community. IGzcausc I have clicnls all over the country [ is] and loo often what I m seeing is that when it Wters ( 161 down to Lhc SLdlC : Ind hCal kVC1, COmnlLlnity inVOhment [ I/ I nxxw putting a flier up or notice in the newspaper [` B] talkmg about WC rc going to have meeting, or we had a 1191 meeting and Lhis is what we decided.

PO1 And another thing that happens and it happens ( 211 right hcrc in New Hedford. and Tufts Ilnivcrsity has done [ zn] a study that looked at community involvcmcnt in New 161 you vc just given lip service and made a charade out of [ 7] the whole notion of community involvement.

I81 So I want you to make sure that you underline 191 ancl strengthen the technical advisor grant aspect of the [ lo] Superfund. And I also want you to expand it, because now [ i 11 Superfund is now and more because of the cost writeoff [ 12] and the balancing they re talking redevelopment now with [ 131 NIX sites. And so you have to also create a category of 1141 advisor to the community in the area of redevelopment and [ i 51 rclocaliott.

r1 . Now while we re on the option of relocation, I 1171 can t tell you how many sites I ve been to that I ve [ is] worked on where relocation was deemed necessary.

1191 IIomeowncrs were nickeled and dimed for their properties.

[ ZO] Anybody ever go to Pensacola? Nickeled and dimcd for [ zi! their propcrtics. And in fact, in Pensacola everybody , [ 221 who ow~ xxl a rent house lost money because of the way the For The Record, Inc.  ( 301) 870 8025 Min U Script@ ( 73) Page 582  aage 585 NEW BEDFORD, MA June 18,2003 Page 586 NACEPT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS _~ .~

Page 588 [ I] Uniform Relocation Assistance Act, which is not in your [ zl purview I understand, is written. hd turn around and [ 3] hand that land over, EPA hands it over to the Escambia ( 41 County. Escambia County has a little cabal of [ 5] developers. And then somebody now who is living in a [ s] house that they had to build in that area during [ 7] segregation, because they couldn t live anywhere else in [ a] Escambia County if they wanted to stay together or they [ q didn t want to live in the quarters, are now living in [ IO] neighborhoods that have higher crime, higher drugs, worse [ I I] schools than when they left. And when they drive back [ IZ] around the new redeveloped area  so there s got to be [ 13] some parody put in here.

[ I41 I sit also on the acting vice chairman of the [ 15] Waste and Facility Siting Subcommittee of NEJAC, trying [ 16] to fill Veronica s old shoes. I also am the chairman of ~ 171 the Superfond, Brownfields, and Black Land Loss Committee [ 18] of the National Black Environmental Justice Network.

[ 19] We re looking for you guys to  I heard you this 1201 morning. I clearly heard you. The issues are tough.

~ 211 And they re not black and white. And we re going %& y ~ 221 things, we re going to use a phrase  then you re going 111 Homeowners have issues. Tenants have issues.

! ( 21 In Long Branch, New Jersey, right now there s a huge [ 3] issues. There s a cleaning up a New Jersey coal gas [ 4] conversion site. And there are citizens living in public ( 51 housing that happen to be two blocks away from the beach [ s] on the Jersey shore that are just summarily being [ 7] relocated with no input whatsoever. And the cost of [ a] housing is so high in Mammoth County where I live that [ q they re talking about these people who have been living [ IO] here for 30 years being relocated to Ocean County or some [ ii] other parts of New Jersey. And again, with no say in it.

[ I21 Funding. You ve got to do something about the I [ i3] transaction costs. And I know I m just going to make [ 14] some enemies when I use the term polluter pays. But mc,

1151 Michael, if you could figure out a way to stop all these [ 16] damn transaction costs that are taking all the money out [ IT] of the Superfund system, money that could be going into [ ia] the cleanup of my communities, and guarantee this, I [ ig] think that people ought to be willing to put polluter 1201 pays on the table in exchange. Now, I m going to get [ 21] into heaps of trouble for " dying that, but that s how 1 ~ 221 feel and so I said it.

Page 587 Page 589 [ I] to use a phrase that s going to offend me and by god I m [> I Look to the insurance industry. I used to work 121 going to use one that s going to offend you. And that s [ 2] for Prudential. And we made a whole gang of money [ 3] just the fact of the matter. That s how this thing gets [ 3] relocating communities away from Superfund sites and ( 41 down. But you can t back away from the tough issues. [ 4] industrial facilities, because it lowers the risk at the [ 5] You cannot back away. There are too many powerless [ 5] site. The companies get a windcall in returns, in [ s] people. And you might be busting your chops trying to [ 6] reductions of their property and casualty insurance.

p] make it right for them, and they sit around, turn around [ q There s a lot of creative thinking.

[ o] and call you and say stop patronizing me, or this is not PI So let s stop shouting at each other across the [ g] in loco parentis, I can speak for myself even when I 191 fence line. Let s stop assuming that you know what I m [ lo] can t. I want to encourage you to stay to fight the [ IO] going to say because I m an environmcntalist. And I ll [ ii] tough issues. [ ii] stop assuming that I know what you rc going to say [ I 21 Finally, we need to look at the issues of [ 12] because you re industry. Let s look for new, creative,

[ 13] gentrification and displacement that seem to bc coming 1131 innovative ways to face these problems. If it can be ( 141 part and parcel who the whole redevelopment thrust. [ 14] done, I hope to God that you all are the folks that can ~ 151 There is this cabal, the more you devolve Superfund ~ [ ISI do it. Thank you, very much.

[ 16] authority to the states, the more you are condemning poor ` It61 MS. McCLAIN: Thank you. lind our Teal speaker ~ 171 and disenfranchised communities to being destroyed. It s ( 171 is Dr. Veronica Eady from Tufts University.

[ lsl happening aI1 over the country. In fact, our 1181 MS. EADY: I m not going to take up much of your jjsl subcommittee of NEJAC is doing a study right now called, 1191 time, because this is just a cameo appearance. I wasn t 1201 The Unintended Impact Study, to look exactly at those po] expecting to talk.

[ 21] issues that Superfund and Brownfields rcdevelopmcnt PII I m Veronica Eddy. I m the Acting chair of the 1221 sites. ~ 221 National Environmental Justice Advisory Council. And __ ....

Page 586  Page 589 ( 741 Min U Scrip@ 3 For The Record, Inc.  ( 301) 8` 70 8025 [ I] I ve been doing that since January. Before that for the ~ 21 last two or three years I ve been the Chair of the Waste ( 31 and Facility Siting Subcommittee.

141 You ve heard a lot from these panelists, and I ~ 51 don t think that I can say anything that they ve said any 161 better. I just want to share a couple of things with ir] you. First of : iIl a story. I was sitting in my office [ a] yesterday and I got a call from a residence in the city [ s] of Mauldcn, which is not too far from here in [ IO] Massachusctts. And he was concerned about his neighbors.

11 II Because his neighbors who moved recently from the town of 1121 IIolliston a number of them have cancer called osteo

[ ISI sarcoma, a bone cancer I understand. I m not a doctor.

1141 Anyway, the town of Holliston is just south of a 1151 Superfund site in Ashland called Niansa ( phonetic). And ( 16; evidently this family is from a neighborhood where a lot ~ 171 pcoplc have this same type of cancer. Nso, evidently [ ia] this type OF cancer is related to some of the chemicals [ 19] of the Niansa site.

WI It really concerns me that  and this is the 121) second time that I vc talked to this man. It concerns me ( 221 that residents arc calling mc. I just teach at a NACEPT SUF'ERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS Page 590 NEW BEDFORD, Ml June 18, ZOOf __

Page 592 1 111 Rut it s an uphill battle. I spent six years as [ ZJ an enforcement attorney at EPA. Two years in region 8 [ a] and 4 years in region 9. And I know from experience that [ 41 even government lawyers have an imbalance of power, which [ 5] is part of the problem with Superfund and all of the lq litigation that takes decades, and decades, and decades.

( 71 Is there s this incredible imbalance of power. We need ~ 81 to acknowledge it and move forward from there.

PI I want to remind you all, and I m sure in your [ IO] many meetings you ve talked about this, but when I teach [ T 11 my classes at ` Tufts, and one of the classes I teach is on i [ IZ] Environmental Justice, I Iike to refer my students to the [ q National Law Journal Article in 1992 by La Vale and Koyle ~ 141 ( phonetic). And if you haven t reviewed that article [ ISI lately, it would be a really good article to review,

( 161 because those two journalists talked about how EPA 1171 addressed contamination issues and Superfund issues in [ IS] communities of color and low income communitiesAnd [ is] through those two reporters, we heard about how the [ zo] remedies we re as good, the penalties we re as high, and [ 211 al1 manner of things. Very important article.

I221 And when we hear panelists talk about I ~~ ~~ ~.~

[ II university. I m not a part of the government. I m not [ z] part ofcnforccmcnt. Rut this person had spoken to the 131 EPA on scvcral occasions. IIc d spoken lo the State [ 41 1) rpartment ol~ I~ nvironmental Protection. No one was : s! will! ng to test the wells on the Niansa site on the south IS] side of the site to see if there was any migration of 171 chemicals towards this neighborhood in IIolliston. He [ a] cvcn engaged elected officials, members of the [ 9] legislature who were also trying to help him gel testing [ lo] done for this community in IIoIliston.

II ` I And I think that this story speaks a lot to the [ iz] issue of imbalance of power. While Superfund may not be ~ 131 a statue of retribution, is that what WC said? It does 1141 assqn blame. Ilut apart from assigning blame, I think ( 151 that it 5 imporlant to realize lhat communities are an [ 16] important part of the equation and no matter how hard we ~ 171 try thcrc is an uncomfortable imbalance of power.

:~ a] (; ommunities are not at the table on equal fboting. And [ is] in addition to that, many communities and of course many 1201 of the ones WC vc spoken about, can t afford to hire PI] lawycrs. And can t afford to hire scientists. I think 1721 it s Imporlant to acknowledge that. Page 59 1 /

' [ rI institutional controls and warning about institutional 121 controls and also about public participation, it s 131 important to rake this subcommittee as an opportunity to [ 4] look at some of these things that we ve learned about [ 51 Environmental Justice over the years, and some of the [ q things that steps thal EPA has taken over the years. And ( 71 to make sure that these things are being addressed.

PI FinaIIy, I just want to remind you and I m sure 191 you know about this, too. A value to some of the [ to] resources at the NEJACYou know, you have three really [ II] important members of this subcommittee here who are [ iz] resources for you. Wilma Subra who was co chair of our [ ISI working group on pollution prevention. And the NEJAC is [ 141 about to come out and finalize that report on pollution [ is] prevention. Please engage Wilma and have a look at the 1161 report as soon as we release it. And right now the 1 [ I 71 executive council is voting on it? so it s really a 1 [ rsI matter of days and not more than a couple of weeks that 111 I L 9 we II have this report coming out on pollution I [ zo] prevention.` lhis is an opportunity, again, to give EPA [ 21] more advise on pollution prevention, and really [ zz] tmdcrscorc some of the messages that EPA s getting from Page 593 For TheRecord, Inc.( 301) 870 8025 Mim U Script@ ( 75) Page590 Page593 NEW BEDFORD, MA June l& ZOO3 NACEPT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING ZIOLIDAY INN EXPRESS ___

Page 594 I

[ i] NEJAC.

PI Finally  well, not fmally, we have Dr.

[ 3] Mildred McClain, who as you know, or may know, 1 hope you [ 4l know, is Chair of the Federal Facilities Working Group [ s] within NEJAC. She s an incredible resourceAnd of [ s] course, Federal Facilities is something we re concerned m about across the country with respect to Superfund.

PI And fmally Sue Briggum who co chairs the work [ s] group on cumulative impacts. Is that what it s called,

[ lo] Sue? It s called so many different things. Cumulative ( 1 i] impacts, cumulative exposure, alI of these different [ IZ] things. But anyway, as you know, Sue has been involved ~ 131 with the NEJAC for a long time. We continue to look to ~ 141 her as an expert. The cumulative impacts working group 115~ is just getting started, but it has a host of experts in [ 16] the field from a variety of stakeholder groups. And this [ 17] is also an opportunity for NEJAC and this NACEPT [ IS] subcommittee to come together and to share some of the [ lg] resources and really build up off of each other in the [ zo] messages that we re sending to EPA. [ I] that I consistently heard we re talking a pcoplc issue.

[ 2] This just isn t chemicals in the ground or chemicals in ( 31 the air. This is a people issue, and it s how those [ 4l chemicals impact

[ 51 ( END OF TAPE)

PI MS. ROBINSON:  on this committee to make good ( 71 recommendations to EPA and looking to EPA to do a better [ a] job of administering this program and getting it down.

[ g] And of course we recognize limitations here that we can t IO] ask you to go talk to Congress, but in a way we can. Yo~~

I 11 have a way you can do that. But the message needs to get 121 out. There need to be come changes in Superfund.

131 Superfund must be saved. I really think those are the 141 message that I was hearing.

I[ 151 MS. HERRERA: Veronica, I m going to go ahead I[ is] and call on you, again. I know you just spoke, but I d [ i7] like you to give us your rap.

( 211 That s all I m going to say for now. I [ zz] appreciate you all, Dr. McClain, Dolores, for inviting me ._ _~ _.._ ~~~ [ Ial MS. EADY: Okby, well. I don t what else I can [ tg] say. I do think thqt the panelists had a lot to offer in [ 20] amazing message b: . And if I may just say that Florence s ( 211 PowerPoint pres$ nLation was excellent. There s a panel '[ 22] of experts here, abd I don t think that there s anything ibid .~~~~.

Page 595 [ i] to be on this panel, and you alI for allowing me to speak [ 2] and take up your time. Thank you.

[ 31 MS. McCLAIN: Now you can Ckdp.

L41 ( Applause.)

El MS. McCLAIN: I m a teacher, so I think you can [ 6] do a little bit better than that for the breath of 171 information that you ve received this afternoon. Let s [ a] try that again.

PI ( Applause.)

1101 MS. McCLAIN: I know why Mel stood up, because [ II] one of his points was underscored. I saw him he went ~ 121 yes, yes, yes. Now we re going to open. We have about [ 13] 45,50 minutes left for questions, for comments, for ( 141 feedback on what you heard, points of clarity, points of [ is] support, whichever. And I m going to turn this session [ IB] back over to sister Dotores. Thank you so much for [ i 71 attention.

1181 MS. HERRERA: I m going to go ahead and start jjg] with the panel and have you comment on your collcagucs,

~ 201 brothers and sisters of the day. Did you want to start,

Page 597 [ i] more that I could say as a professor or an advisor lo EPA [ z] that could accentuate what they ve said.

131 I do just want to add one more CoIlllllCnt that 1 [ 4] forgot to add. In a former life I wds a policy maker for [ 6] the state of Massachusetts, the Commonwealth of [ 6] Massachusetts. And during those three years that I spent [ 7] there I saw a lot of access to the governor and access to : [ a] members in the governor s cabinet. I just want to [ g] underscore again on the issue of power that it s just not [ IO] getting the EPA to do what you want them to do. Or to [ I I] get industry or the PKPs to do what you want them to do 1121 It s not just an issue of, you know, getting the site [ 13] cleaned up and all of that. But it s also an issue to [ 14] access to senior level officials and decision makers.

[ is] It s not just about being able to hire a lawyer. I saw a [ 16] tot of access to senior policy makers, decision makers,

[ 17] cabinet level people, and the govcrnor. And vcrp few 01 [ ia] those people wcrc community people.

[ 191 As you move forward with your subcommittee I ,[ 20] think that we need to rcmcmbcr that  1 think it was [ 21] Florence, and maybe give us some comments on what your  [ 21] Florcncc who mentioned that thcrc few grassroots WI MS. ROBINSON: I think that some of the things I . 1221 community people on here. And so, the grassroots people ___.

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Page 598 Page 600 ~ 11 who are here. the environmental people who are here, but [ II community admiring them. In the wintertime these big ( 21 also everybody else has a real obligation to make sure [ z] tall greens and saying I wish I had some of those. ( 31 that we arc addressing the ir, terest of people. We re all 131 People stopped growing gardens. Why? Because their food 141 people and WC re all residents, md anyone of us could be [ 41 was contaminated. It was making them sick. They would [ s] in a situation where we re exposed. Let s not let that ISI cat it and they would actually get sick. We re swamp [ s] happen. Let s try to look through the lens of the [ s] community. People depend on that swamp for food. 17) residents. ( 71 I had a next door neighbor. This man had two PI MS. HERRERA: Michael and then Charles, please. [ a] freezers. One freezer was filled with game. The other PI MR. LYTHCOTT: The only thing I want to [ gl was filled with fish. He grew a wonderful garden during [ IO] underscore I don t how or whether or not we ve been [ IO] the summertime. He and his wife went to the store to by [ I 11 SUCCCSS~~ JI : JI getting this whole notion of Environmental [ I I] things like flour and sugar and salt. It was important [ 12] Juslicc off the page for YOU as a concept. And giving ( 1121 for subsistence for our community. And that is true of ~ 131 you some sense why it s on the paper and how critically [ Ki] many, many, many of the people of color communities. ~ 141 important it is. That s rcaIIy what I would my goal to ( 141 That land that has become contaminated is important to [ isI be In my career I ve done a lot of cross cultural [ is] them for many, many reasons. And when it is not cleaned ( 161 Stuff. And I know that people have differcnl [ is] up, it s very hard to tell a person like I m showing you 1171 communication styles and people within certain cultures ~ 71 those signs in that swamp. It s very hard to tell people ~ 181 see certain behaviors as valuable and valid and others [ la] 20 from now you can expect to get cancer from eating fish i: g] not so valuable and not so valid. It s sort of like I m Ii91 out of that lake. They can understand stepping off the 1201 sLJrc you vc all experienced on here the academicians have [ zo] corner and about to get hit by an 18 wheeler. But it s [ zi] : J rulrlJre, corporate types have a culture, activists have ( 211 very diflicult to comprehend some danger that will not ~ 221 a culture. BLJt I want to somehow make sure that we ve . __ _ . .~~ ` 1221 show itself until many years later. So, people continue Page 599 Page 601 [ I] s~~ cccssfully  because you hate lo think that it s just [ r] to fish in that Iake. And they continue to eat the fish. 121 becoming scJ vicc. Oh yeah, oh boy, gosh, we didn t have [ z] These are not sports fishermen. ~ 31 : Jn I: J panel yet, why don 1 we do one in New Bedford. [ 31 It was made very real to the people of Baton I41 II s really critically important. And it s not [ 41 Ilouge when : Jn EPA oversight manager reported over a 151 XX!' fi) r the policy w; Jlks. It s not the first thing Ihe ( 51 thousand of crawfish being taken out of that lake 161 legislators are going to ask YOU about when I3' A goes 161 everyday. Now that ain t going home to that table. [ 7] bcli~ rc them with a redesign of Superfund. Bul if leave p] it oiJt. you II get gone.

PI MS. HERRERA: Thank you, Mich: JcI. Charles,

[ IO] plcasc.

;: I] MR. UTLEY: I just want to thank you all for ( 121 allowing 1~ s to cornc and to participate in this [ i3] discussion. And hopel'ully liom this discussion you can 114) make the right dccisions. And that s all I m going to ~ 71 That s going home to who knows who tables.

181 Itsavery important area  the land, and 191 that s another issue you really need to look at. When [ to] you start talking about hazardous ranking and [ 11] prioritization is what is the use of that land besides [ I21 living on it?

[ I31 MS. HERRARA: We re going to open now for i ~ 141 question and answers. We 11 try to answer them. What [! 6] MS. HERRERA: Yes, T; lorcncc.

[ I71 MS. ROBINSON: There s one point I neglected to [ la] mention. I m from one of these water communities. As : ig] son many Afric: Jn American communities. especiaIIy in the 1201 South WC rc water communities. We live off the land.

12 1: When I first moved to hlson. almost cvcryhody s backyard ~ 21 h;~ tl ; J big bcaJJtiHJI garden. I tJscc1 to drive through Ihe ._ [ is] I m going to ask is that we start with our subcommittee [ 16] and then if anybody from the public has questions or they ~ 171 want to make comments. we 11 go ahead and keep those. We [ toI have plenty of time. So I would ask that the committee [ I91 if you raise your hand, and I II recognize you and just ( zo] Ict LJS know who want to ask the question of. I can t I [ pi] sec. I made a mistake. Vicky. I pa MS. PETERS: All right. I vc got a few. So you For The Record, Inc.  ( 301) 870 8025 Min U Script@ ( 77) Page 598  Page 601 NEW BEDFORD, MA June m, 2003 NACEFT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS [ I] can just tell me when to stop.

VI MS. HERRERA: They can tell you when to stop.

PI MS. PETERS: One of the cultures you left off 141 was the lawyer culture. I think that  you frightened 151 me with your expectationsAnd certainly I m going to do [ s] my best to meet them, but it is daunting. I really urge m this panel and everybody that you know to submit written [ a] comments to us. And I know everybody s burned out and [ s] stretched so thin. But it is a struggle I think to [ lo) inculcate these principals into the process that we re [ I II working with. I think we have identified them in [ u] different areas. I m just not confident that we have ~ 131 identied everything that we can do at each step. So,

[ 14] I d love to get input on that.

Ii51 One of the areas that we have identified is the [ iq HRS, but the discussion of it, you know, I did my best.

[ ITI But I m not sure I got it. So in particular, Dolores, if [ is] you can make sure that they ve seen the draft that we [ w] have on the HRS. It kind of tees up the issue whether [ ZOJ the HRS is currently working for the purposes of insuring [ ZII that sites can make it onto the NPL that should be [ zz] because of Environmental Justice concerns. And I m just Page 602 11 [ I 111 Page 603 [ I] not sure that I ve identified all of them. Any thoughts [ z] that you have on that. You mentioned the HRS. Any [ s] thoughts that you have on that, I would strongly urge [ 4] you, you know, give LIS your thoughts now. But if you ( 51 could also submit them in writing.

[ sl Another question was I think that it was ~ 1 Charles, if I understood correctly, indicated that there p] are a lot of other sites out there. One of the things

[ g] and maybe I misunderstood that comment. But one of the [ IO] things we have struggling with is the future of [ I II Superhmd, the trends, and whether we re going to bc pz] looking at harbor sites, or lake sites, or watershed 1131 sites. Yesterday we heard  I can t remember now [ 141 whether she said it to everybody or in a sidebar ( 151 conversation that I had with Deirdre, and I don t [ 16] remember her tide. Her sense was that a lot of the 1171 sites were going to start seeing our mothballed, old ~ 181 manufacturing mothbaIled sites. And if you look at the [~ zI] sites that were listed this year recently and the sites [ zo] that are now being proposed for listing, there s not a ~ II lot of information on them in trade press. But just from [ z] the brief descriptions it sounds like that may bc a lot Page 604 [ I] of the sites, and I m wondering from your experience and [ z] your communities and what not if you have any [ 3] information, if you have any predictions on what kind of [ 4] sites. I do have two more, but I m afraid I may be [ 51 monopolizing things.

F 7 MS. HERRERA: Let s hold that for just one 171 second. I m just going to ask Charles he 11 go ahcad and [ s] respond. Charles.

PI MR. UTLEY: There are a lot of sites in our IO] areaAnd they are like coming out of mothballs, because I 11 even in the recent one that is not an NPL site. But if z] the polluter would have not come forward, it would have 3) made it because it s in the heart of a project. hnd it s 41 been 17 10.

51 MS. HERRERA: Then I m going to ask the panel if 61 they would like to respond to Vicky.

71 MS. McCLAIN: Before anybody else does I want to 81 make sure that the draft of the IIRS paper is given to the 91 panel.

` 01 MS. ROBINSON: I recall what was in the original ai] HRS. I also recall what was in one of the revised HRSs ` 21 after a group of us had sat down and said there s some Page 605 ( 11 real problems here. Knowing for example, the lack of [ z] Superfund sites in Atrican American communities. In [ s] addition to this issue about subsistence, which is very,

[ 4] very important, one of the other factors that needs to be [ s] looked at in the hazardous ranking is how many sites [ 6] there are in a given area. Because typically in African [ 7] American communities you don t have just one hcility,

[ s] you will have many. You will have abandoned waste sites [ g] You will have active waste sites. You will have chemical : IO] plants, all kinds of things like that. And the total : I I] soup makes for a very bad problem. But the way the [ lz] system was working it was looking at these small ( 131 individual sites in the middle of this mess and saying 1141 oh, it doesn t have enough problems. But you ve got to [ 15] look at the total community and the impact on the total [ 16] community. So, I would be interested to see what )' our ~ 171 new draft on HRS says.

II81 MS. PETERS: Just LO make it clear, what I [ is] referred to is kind of framing the issue, and identifying [ 20] different issues, pros and cons, and options. It docsn t pi] have recommendations. So, WC would love to  1 would [ 22] love to hear if we vc adequately fi amed tlic issue and _~~

Page 602 " Page 605 ( 78) I Min U Script@ For The Record, Inc.  ( 301) 870 8025 Page 606 1 111 then any suggestions you might have on options to deal [ z] with il. I m going to leave my card up here, Dolores,

[ 3] txcause I have two more, but we can move on.

I41 MS. HERRERA: Does anybody else Irave any [ 5] comments to what Vicky has said so far?

PI MR. LYTHCOTT: Vicky, just to respond to your 17) comment about scaring you. I think that that one of the [ a] things all of us arc saying up here is don t let [ 9] Superfund die. IIow you manage that is your own [ lo] particular magicAl of us up here are saying [ I 11 strengthen it. Fund it. And ifit s broke fix it. But [? zj don L assume that the devolution of authority down to the [ 13] slalcs or the local level is necessarily, you know, small [ t4] government s good government. That s not necessarily the [ ISI only way Lo fix it. So that s  you know, yeah. Is [ 16] thdt still scary?

[ I71 MS. PETERS: Maybe 1 can deal with it.

1181 MS. HERRERA: Tom.

[ i 91 MR. NEWLON: I was scared, too. Maybe for [ zo] different reasons. Michael, maybe it s a question for [ zt] you. Maybe for Charles or Florence. Rut the ~ 221 communication s style issue of, you know, 1 m an ex Page 608 [ I] juicy. And so, that s where I think the challenge is [ 2] going to be for you.

I31 MS. ROBINSON: May I add a comment? If I ~ 41 recall, the original charge of Superfund was to address ~ 51 the nation s worst hazardous waste sites posing the [ 6] greatest threats to human health and the environment. I [ 7] think that s what it should still be. And the simple [ a] fact is that human health issues, and the environment,

[ 91 which is going to serve humans in the future is simply [ lo] not being addressed. Passionate or dispassionate, I [ I 11 think the statement in itself is charged and it says a [ IZJ tot. And we need to say it and say it and say it again,

( 131 and remind people what this whole process is about.

1141 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to  one of [ 15] our NEJAC tricks is that, you know, while we have to ~ 161 submit this certain type of document to EPA, you can do a 1171 lot with the cover letter that goes to the administrator,

( 181 So, whatever you can get in there because it s not `[ tg) dispassionate enough, I would suggest putting it in your 1201 cover letter.

[ 211 MS. HERRARA: Ed.

WI MR. PUTNAM: Thank you for coming. I think it s __ Page 607 Page 609 ~ 11 professor, cx biologist, lawyer, I m just a total geek,

121 okay. t have a real hard time  we re doing this [ 3] report. I m helping draft part of it. And I want it to [ d] bc ahlc to communicate to people other than gceks. Any ~ 51 hints any of you might have on sort of working on that.

161 MR. LYTHCOTT: ` l'hat s a great queslion,` I'om. A 171 lot 01` pcoplc have done a 101 of work with that. Part of 181 the problem you re going lo lhcc is, is that EPA is going [ g] to rcrluirc thal you submit a document that is kind of [ IO] dispassionate. But the answer to your question is to [ i 1) show some heart. In other words, to have some language [ ln] whcthcr it s a prcamblc. Whelher it talks about oh, my ( 131 <; ocl, it' WC` could only have done with. ( Inaudible.) So ~ 141 that people understand before they read what your report [ ISI is, that you had an involvcment. That you had a sense of [ 16] Ilnderstnnding.` l'h; lt you brought some passion. Or that [ 17] this opportunity was not perhaps not as large as you have [~ RI likccl. SorncUling like that. And I think that it can be 1191 rlonc.

L 1 And so what you It bc balancing is partly your ` zij 0~ 11 personal c(, tnmtInication stytc. Partly you It bc [ XT] bal:~ nc inx what liPA will throw it back at you if it s too [ r] very important for us to hear from groups that have a 121 special message Lo tell us. You probably heard us today [ z] talking about segregating sites off into other program,

141 or splintering them, utilizing funds elsewhere. Your 151 prcscntations were very passionate about Superfund being ~ 61 the only statute that can address your concerns. I guess 171 I wanted to know if that s true. If that is the only [ a] statute that you feet that can address your concerns.

[ g] And if so, what s unique about Superfund that [ lo] accomplishes that for you?

,[ j'l MS. HERRERA: Okay, we re going to start with 11~ 1 Florence and then go down.

Cl31 MS. ROBINSON: The Superfund site in my [ 141 community began as an active dump site in 1964. Here in p5] the year 2001 we still have contamination, and we have [ t6] other sites that have been created in that time period.

[ 17] As a matter of fact, I remember saying about the active i 1181 hazardous waste site. That s a Superfund site waiting to [ is] happen. We got lots of Superfund sites waiting to ( 201 happen. Again, because there has been a lack of II ,211 regulation, a lack of enforcement.

/ PI Whal olhcr programs may exist to address to For The Record, Inc.  ( 301) 870 8025 Min U Script@ ( 79) Page 606  Page 609 NEW BEDFORD, MA Tune 18.2003 NACEI'T SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS Page 610 [ i] them, for God s sack they ve never shown themselves.

[ z] We re still sitting there looking at the same problems p] that have existed all this time and only continue to get ( 41 worse. So, I think it would be very helpful if IS] communities as well as state governments be given [ s] additional information on what other possible funding p] could be available. But in the state of  in some [ a] states, I won t keep maligning my state. But in some 191 states the state itself it does not have the funds. Or [ lo] let s put it this way, it does not prioritize its funds [ II] in such a way that it is being used for cleanup of sites Page 612 [ II MR. UTLEY: Let me just add to t11al. A few 121 weeks ago GA. Comp, some of you may not be aware of it,

[ 3] was meeting that they could funding for more plutonium.

141 And through acts of grassroots organizations including [ s] Russian s grassroots organization we were able to get [ s] that stopped. And that s because being a Superfund or [ 7] not even with the Federal agent being at SRS you have a ~ 61 mess you can t clean up now. But yet you were trying to 191 get billions of dollars in a far land to make more [ lo] plutonium.

( 111 It s things like that that need to be addressed [ lz] that are endangering citizens.

[ I31 MR. HERRARA: Michael, it seems as though you 1141 had something to say.

[ I51 MR. LYTHCOTT: Yeah. Part of it 1 think is [ IS] people would rather deal with the devil they know than 1171 the devil they don t know. Those of us in Environmental [ te] Justice communities see Environmental Justice as a civil [ lg] rights issue. We formed ourselves against what we called [ zo] environmental racism. So, for us looking at the progress ~ 211 that we have made in terms of gaining equal rights and LIZ] in new ways and new information of how we can better do ( 131 with what we tiave whether it s Superfund, or what Michael ~ 141 said, any other means that WC can clean up our land where 1151 it can become useful.

[ I61 MS. HERRERA: Ed, did you feel as though your 1171 questions was , answered.

[ 181 MR. PUTNAb: Yes, thank you.

I1 91 MS. HERRETA: Kate, please.

WI MR. PROBST: I also want to say thanks for [ zi] coming. I thin d It s extraordinarily useful for us, and ( 221 equal protection under the law and civil rights, we ve ___ [ 22] hopefully benkficial. Michael, you raised the question .__.

Page 611 Page 613 [ i] always found that that Federal protection there was a [ I] of did we understand the why. And I guess to me in 12~ blindness or it was  they say live s not fair. At [ 2] listening to the two women who spoke yesterday, my [ 3] least we could count on the Feds that things would be ~ 41 randomly unfair.

151 But yet when things filter down to the states [ 6] and the politics, the local politics  all politics arc [; 1 local  but got in the way. The purpose of people [ e] running for office and campaigning, and campaign doors.

[ g] People are building a former city councilman from the [ IO] city of New Orleans, a black man, and some bodies got ( 1 I) some land that had been the city of New Orleans landfill LIZ] and built a subdivision and a school on top of one the [ 13] most polluted pieces of land in the state of Louisiana.

( 141 Now it s called the Agriculture Street Landfii,

[ IS] Superfund site. That s what happens.

[ 161 I don t know if this really answers your ~ 171 question. But I think it s like we know Superfimd. We ale] know it works. I think it would be helpful to put and to [ ICI] publicize a list of alternative of sucCess stories from [ 3] question is the what. I don t know if it s the NACEP'I [ 4] panel or each of us individually, which is that I m not [ s] sure what it is we can or should do. I mean, you laid [ s] out the things that were important to you, and they re [ 7] sort of a laundry list of I think some very important [ a] Superfund things that arcn t particular to l!. J. You know,

[ g] Superfund program continues, strengthen the Supcrl'und lo] program, adequate funding. And 1 guess I m wondering,

1 I] which is of course or whatever the phrase is, in terms of 121 specific hViroIUIIenta~ Justice issues what is it you gUyS 131 would  we can t do anything about the fact that poor 141 people and people of color don t have as much access to 151 power in this country. Except for voting, which I 161 hopefully we ll all do. But there are some issue that 171 are so large that are beyond any of us, and beyond this 181 subcommittee. And I guess I keep listening  1 talked 191 to Wilma yesterday after we listened to Doris and Sandy ( 20] other funding sources, of other ways of addressing the [ zo] being very frustrated at how  I don t really know whal ~ 21) rcmcdiation for people to look at and education [ zz] themselves about.

Page 610  Page 613 ( 80) ~ 211 it is that folks like us can do that s genuinely useful ~ 221 The issues you laid about Superfund in gcncral, like Min U Script@ For The Record, Inc. _ ( 301) 870 8025 NACEPT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITI'EE MEETING HOLZDAY INN EXPRESS NEW BEDFORD, MA June l& 2003 Page 614 [ II yeah. But the public health issues, the things aren t 121 happening, the ways in which you feel government isn t ( 31 responsive I genuinely don t know what it is that we ( 41 should bc doing. I don t know if that questions makes Is] any sense.

161 MR. LYTHCOTT: Yeah, it does. I have a couple 17) of responses. One is to provide communities with the [ a] resources that they need to participate, to understand ( 91 what is going on, to understand is next door to them, and [ IO] to participate in the progress. That s real clear. It [ I r] just jumped out of my head. What I d just say is provide [ tzj them the resources. I 11 think of it.

[ 131 MS. ROBINSON: I d like to make a comment [ ial ( inaudible). About 10 years ago a couple of  myself 1151 and another Environmental Justice activist, a person from [ 16] a Supcrfund community, sat down and WC' thought about this 1171 very thorny problem of the health issues. Now here we [ la] arc IO years later still using risk when we don t have ! 19] enough intormation to use it wisely. We use risk to [ zol dctcrniine that a f` acilily safe to come into a community.

1211 Yet that risk has never predicted the kind of exposures ~ 221 that WC have suf~ cred and I I1 assume the kind of Page 615 [ i] illnesses that have developed. I

i:.

, L 121 ` I'hc Superfund used risk to determine the level 131 of clcanup. This is done ail over the country. You use ( 41 risk to dctcrminc the level ofcleannup.` I'o determine the [ 5i rcmcdy and level of cleanup. And to determine, I heard [ cl this question asked earlier, what is clcan. You re using 171 a filulty tool to do this. At the same time that you ve [ al got thcsc communities all across the country who are [ 9] suffering these problems and who arc virtually living [ lo] laboratories. Now. you will never hear me advocate come [ III in and study the people. But I will make a trade with [ iz] you. You come in and you give us the health care that we [ 131 need. and while you are giving us that health care you ~ 141 can IX learning something about the effects of chemical [: 5] exposures. Because we have more colds. We have more 1161 sinus problcms. Wc have more respiratory problems. We [ III have Immune system problems. We have liver and kidney ,181 clisc;~ sc. All thcsc kind of problems. And high blood rig] prcssurc', and don t blame it on pork. as well as the poj cancers, ct cctcr: l.

1211 So. iI you set up some clinics or arrange for ~ 22; some of us in these rural communities to go to a given Page 616 111 clinic, the doctors would begin to see a pattern. For 121 example, in my community a few years ago everybody was ~ 31 having nose bleeds. Including three very severe ~ 41 spontaneous hemorrhages. Yet aiI these people are going [ s] to different doctors. So doctor sees a pattern. But if [ sl WC were going to the same doctor, somebody wotild say ( 71 something is terribly wrong here. You would begin to be [ a] getting some information to say, now wait a minute, at [ g] these projected levels people are getting sick. And IO] would help you to make better decision. I m saying, EPA,

I 11 government, whoever, would Like government make better 121 decisions about where it places facilities. About the 131 levels at which it allows them to emit things and 141 Superfund cleanups.

151 MS. HERRERA: Michael had a power surge.

161 MR. LYTHCOTT: Yes, I remembered what I was 171 going to say. In Environmental Justice communities, in I 81 communities that I Il call marginally solvent home IS] ownership is a critical step in a family s evolution.

rol And I can t tell you how many Superfund sites I ve been zt] involved in where I ve seen a family who was the fust 121 generation to really own their own home go back into Page 617 [ ll public housing because of the way things were managed.

( 21 And so when EIQ does a site assessment and it looks at ~ 31 the health effects  there s a center in North Carolina ~ 41 that s looking at black land loss. My subcommittee is [ 5] looking at that as well of NBEJN.

PI I think it is important to access what is the 17) impact on the property values and the equity positions of p] the homeowners next to these plants. So, in other words,

191 you rc looking at what are the health effects. But I can `[ IO] be equally harmed by the fact that I m living in a house [ i I] that there s no market for, there s no fair market value,

[ IZ] and depending on how you do the cleanup, my property [ 13] value might never return. Thc communities cannot get

1( 14] right now the \ vay the law is written, or the way the [ is] policy is written, an Environmental Justice community [ 161 cannot get a relocation technical advisor if they want to ~ 171 proposed relocation during the remedial investigation.

[ iti] ` Ihe rcmcdy selection phase. That they can only get that [ IS) resource when EPA has decided that it wants to do [ 20] relocation.

1211 And so I wot~ lcl ask you to look at the whole [ ZZI issues of property vahlc and rclocation. And the health For The Record, Inc.  ( 301) 870 8025 Min U Script@ ( 81) Page 614  Page 617 Page 618 [ I] effects are criticaLAnd they will exist whether or not [ z] the property issues are handled. But I think if [ 3] Superfund could begin to define  and we can do it. I [ 4] mean, you can take a property value study. You take a 151 community that was built at a similar time with basically [ 6] the same housing stock that s not next to a Superfund m site. You run a property value. You look at the records [ 8] and you run its value as residential property. You track p] it along with this one, or you take the abutting [ ia] commercial properly in this EJ community and look and see [ ii] where this land is worth more now as commercial property ~ 121  it s residential value. There s a ton of ways to do [ 13] it. But to be able to quantify that and address that as [ r4] a remedy. An important part of a remedy options that [ 15] communities ought to have. Because sometimes the only [ 16] time to solve the problem is to get medical help and move [ i7] away. Especially with you all are fudging or messing [ re] around with bright lines, and how clean is clean. I m ( 191 sure all the keys couldn t be here today, but one of the ~ 201 most beautiful things we managed to get the CEO from the [ 21] company that is the responsible party for the Newsom [ 22] Brothers site to come down. And he asked the question at .~ ~~~

Page 61s [ I] a community meeting how clean is clean. And she says you 121 know I don t want to be picky and I don t want to be ( 31 technical she said, but just send some of boys out to [ 4l your backyard where your family lives and whatever you 151 all got back there that s okay, that s what we 11 take.

PI MS. HERRERA: I would like to remind people that m now we ve got 20 minutes on my clock. But on Mildred s [ a] 15, and I don t want her to come and bop me on the head.

[ g] I don t know if we wanted to negotiate, but let s move it [ i o] along.

11 11 MR. UTLEY: Real quick. I would just, Kate, ask ~ 121 that take some of the burden off the communities to prove [ 13] things. There s it s much  we have to prove ~ 141 everything. And I had to go get death certificates to ~ 151 call for those 248 to show the disproportionate of deaths [ i6] related to that community in order to get the healthy ( 171 people looked at. We re just saying it s just a burden [ ls] that s placed on the communities.

[ I91 MS. ROBINSON: I just want to remind you that ~ 201 even after a community is relocated that is not the end ( 211 of the health problem. Thesc people have already been ( 221 impacted, and those health problems need to be addressed I' ` I ` I I III MR. LYTHCOTT: And in fact, you should do some [ 2l health work before a relocation. Because if you disburse [ 3] the cancer cluster, you ll never capture the data.

[ 41 MS. HERRERA: Thank you. Michael.

151 MR. TILCHIN: I have two questions. One is [ s] general and the other one a little more speciiic. The [ 7] general question is, in looking at how the Superfund [ a] program has performed in Environmental Justice [ g] communities, are there certain aspects of the program lo] that totally falls flat on its face? Are there aspects ii] of the program where it seems to bc doing a fairly better 121 job? So, as you kind of look at the various services 13) that Superfund can provide, where is it doing better or 141 worse in Environmental Justice communities?

151 Second question I 11 pose  anyone can answer,

161 but I 11 pose it to Charles and to Michael. And that you 171 said  you actually had two dit'ferent statements related 161 to Brownfields. Charles, in your community the 191 Brownfields program really proved to be an asset.

,201 Michael, you had talked about the Browntields program ,211 being a friend to Superfund. I think that s what you 1221 said. And then I think in related I was very interested __. ~. ._____~. ~~~

Page 621 [ I] in this. If you could elaborate on it a little bit.

[ 2] Associating Brownfields and gentrilication and how thal [ 3] too imposed in Environmental Justice communities. So,

[ 4] those two questions.

[ 51 MR. HERRARA: Charles, do you want to start and ( 61 then Michael? And then what we can do is overall broad

[ 7] based question, the fist one he started, we II open it [ a] up to the floor.

PI MR. UTLEY: Michael, in our sihlation we took it [ io] away from the city. In other words, we were the [ i I] determinate factor as to what Brownfields did in the [ 12] community. NL of the activities of the Brownfields come ~ 131 through the community based organization, not through the [ 14] city. Even as to who gets the contract. So, it s [ is] totally different.

LlSl MR. LYTHCOTT: What s Supcrfund  what s been [ 17] happening better and worse. I think basically Superfund [ is] has been getting better and better. I know the law [ ig] hasn t changed. But in terms of the guidelines, the [ 20] guidances, and the policy that EPA has been issuing:.

[ 21] they re getting more community fricndly.` l'hcy re getting 1221 smarter and smarter about how to do it. Where I begin to NACEPT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS NEW BEDFORD, MA June l& 2003 Page 622 1 ia] see a breakdown is within the EPA building a capacity to [ z; do that well. So, for example I just worked on a ~ 31 Superfund site in'rorrence, California, were EPA had just ~ 41 come out with this new community involvement program and [ 5] they were going to temporary relocations. And they [ 6] brought in a community relocation advisor for the folks 171 in the community. But the memorandum of understanding

[ E] and of' course they had the Army Corps of Engineers as the [ g] preferred vendor. Well, they gave this beautiful [ IO] memorandum of understanding about how to do a temporary [ I~ J relocation and thcsc are the things that are important.

[> z] So EPA subbed it to the Army Corps. The Army Corps [? 3] looked at it and said, we don t have anybody who can do ~ 141 this. And they subbed it the guys who were moving dirt.

I> 51 Part of the problem in thaC scenario is that if [ I 61 your job is cubic feet of contaminated soil, your job is ] I 71 rcmcdiation. Families become an obstacle. And the whole [ i8] thrust of the EPA, what EPA was trying to do, is to say 1191 that relocation is a family centered phenomenon which [ zo] involves real escdte. Rather lhan it be a real estate

[ zi] related phenomenon which happens to involve families [ zz] kind\ of things. So, that s where I ve seen it, is the Page 624 [ I] not adequately protected.

PI MR. LYTHCOTT: And in terms of your second 131 question of Brownfields versus Superfund. I mentioned ~ 41 Brownfields because of the emphasis on redevelopment.

~ 51 Those of us sitting at the table lived through something [ 6] Ihat we call Negro removalAnd our city governments 171 called it urban renewal. Every black community in this [ a] coumry was cut up, divided, had freeways put through it,

[ g] one way streets. They used to be thriving. There used [ io] to always be a black downtown. That wasn t necessarily 11 I] the function of segregation. My grandfather had his [ IZ] medical practice in way was called the black WalI Street 1131 on Greenwood in Tulsa. We had communities that made [ 141 sense for us, and if you all didn t want to play with us,

[ ISI because we got our own doctors and so forth and so on.

[ I61 So, if you look at the Brownfields industry [ 17] right now and you go to Greenlields conferences, and you [ ia] go to the Grayfields conference, and you go to the [ I 91 Brownfields conference, and you look and see who s 1201 there.` l'herc is an unholy alliance of developers, city 1211 and county managers who want to Negro removal again,

[ zz] because the sprawl and smart growth and people want back ( 11 capacity within EPA 10 do, to enact, some of the really [ I] into the cities. Atlanta. Atlanta had black mayors for [ z] wonderful insights that it s coming up with. [ z] the last I don t know how many years. Do you know what 131 MR. UTLEY: One thing is, what did EPA fall flat [ 3] the largest single growing ethnic population is within 14~ on its f& cc or Superfund is how they approached ~ 41 the city limits ofAtlanta? Anybody? White folks. [ 5; cornmLInities.` l` hat has been one of the worst dramatized ( 51 So, that s going on. And what we see happening ( 61 that I vc ever witnessed to the point where one pregnant 161 is that Brownfields are being used, and Brownfields [ 7] mother threw a chair at one of the spokesmen, because the ~ 71 money and the redevelopment money are being used as a way ~ 81 guy said that none of this can be actually happening. [ a] LO do that again. And so your city will come to you with [ g] And this lady had had a miscarriage, and had one baby who 191 an oh, an environmental program with environmental funds, . io] was born with almost a double sized head. And he was [ ra] but it s same old, same old Negro removal going on again. 111 making that statement in an open meeting not knowing the [ I 11 And il s happening all over the country. And so that s 121 history of that comtnunity. So, it s how you approach a [ iz] our issue with Ihis  yes, should land be put back to 131 community, 1 woukl say is the most devastating that I [ is] productive use? Absolutely. But if I sat there  my 141 have seen when it was actually come in, fall on the face. 1141 grandfather s house doesn t exist anymore because the 151 But they had to back. regroup, get the community leaders [ 15] city of New Bedford built what  did they take you ail 161 in and then re approach il. So. that was my experience. ! [ iq or1 lhe highwdy to nowhere? No. Is anybody here from New 1 71 MS. ROBINSON: One of Lhc problem areas that [ I 71 Bedford? Thcrc s this main road off of the highway 18: I vc seen with Superfund is almost as if community is [ ia] that s like a four lane highway until you get to downtown 191 cxpcc~ cd 10 pay the price of being cxposrd for Ihe sake ( 191 and there s a stop light, and it continues on but it just 20] of gclting their site cleaned up. So that some of the ( 201 sort of dies, you know, like you re going toward 21 I worst exposures thaL have occurred around Superfund sites [ zi] Acushhncl.` l` hat was all of CapeVerde. And all of Cape 22) tl; l~~' wcllrrcd dUritJg thC CkalJUp proCeSS When pcopk! were [ zz] Vcrdian community., 41 CapeVerdian community.

".

For The Record, IX.  ( 301) 870 8025 Min 1CFScript@ ( 83) page 622  aage 625 NEW BEDFORD, MA June l& ZOO3 NACEPT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS ~  I..

Page 626 Page 628 VI That s what we re upset about. That is what we [ i] you re listing new sites Environmental Justice should be 121 see coming. It s not going to be called urban renewal [ z] a consideration where health affects arc equal if there s [ 3] anymore, but it s really quite a big, big industry right [ 3] an Environmental Justice community. Should that be a 141 now. [ 41 reason why you bump that up in terms of getting on the ( 51 MS. HERRERA: I was just going to add that isn t [ 5] list and being a priority. Another way to look al it the 161 just about Negro s renewal. It s aIs0  I live in a [ 6] same thing would be if you looked at human health impacts ~ 1 community that went through the 60s. ( 71 in terms of have an Environmental Justice community with PI MR. LYTHCOTT: I m sorry. I was only speaking [ a] a lot of different facilities. Does that mean that the 1~ 11 from my experience. But absoIutely. The Environmental [ g] health burdens are higher than you might otherwise 1101 Justice community  and it s poor white communities, [ IO] capture? I d just be very interested in your sense of [ ill too. [ I I] whether we re on the right track. If these are useful 1121 1131 [ I41 1151 ( 161 [ I71 [ tal [ 191 I201 1211 I221 Cl1 PI MS. HERRERA: Great. I just wanted to make that point. We re going to go with Sue. BiIl, you had your card up, you took it down.

MR. ADAMS: If we have time ( inaudible).

MS. HERRARA: I was going to Sue and Bill, and then Gary. Because that s the way that it was a few [ iz] things to think about.

NT13l MS. ROBINSON: Okay. First 1 want to clarify [ 14] about my Superfund site, Petro Processors.` l'he original ( 151 two sites before they even became Superfund sites or in [ is] the early stages of being Superfund sites, because we re [ 171 Louisiana and because we gel excessive amounts of rain minutes ago. [ ia] resulted in flooding and contaminalion of' that whole MS. BRIGGUM: First of all, thank you so much. [ ig] swamp. So, now pe re dealing with two different issues.

And I have to say it for those aren t as old as I am, [ zo] We re dealing w 4 h what has been designated Superfund it s such a pleasure to have Florence talk to us. [ zi] site and alI this offset area that is contaminated.

Because some of you might not realize that a decade ago WI I was summoGed in August 1 believe of last year ~_~_~

Page 627 Page 629 Florence was part of the commission that worked on the 103th bill and is the reason why EPA engaged in the 131 number of the administrative reforms that everybody 141 around the table thought were very important in terms 01 [ 5] making super fast, faster, fairer, and more efficient.

161 And so, for those you don t know it, it s nice to be able v] to acknowledge that. And then I m going to ask something [ a] nerdy, because you know that s kind of how 1 am.

PI I m really struck, Florence, about the fact that [ IO] so little has happened in a decade at alI. Because we [ ii] were there. We see it. It s the same thing. You had Liz] construction aclually, as I recall, at Petro Processors 1131 in one ( inaudible). But it sounds like the pond behind ~ 141 there s been no progressAnd I m not getting the sense [ is] that you feel that there s been a lot of progress with ~ 161 the accumulation of sites, because you have a lot of ~ 171 different things in the community. hnd 1 wondered if you lie] had some thoughts about our recommendations? We have a [ ig] few things in here already that I lI just throw out if [ zo] you wouldn 1 mind reacting to it. We ve talked about the PI] importance of prevention, and EPA looking at prevention [ XI programs. We ve talked about the idcd that maybe as [ i] for a good news event. To help plan a good news event.

[ z] Well, it turns out this good news event was to declare [ 3] construction complete at Petro Processors when 1 vc never 141 agreed with the remedies, the rcmcdy which ultimate went [ 5] to hop and treat which is simply taking oily substances

[ 6]  these chemicals that are that site are very solvent in [ fl oils, and it s taking them out of water, but they re [ e] still in the sediments. And they re recycling through 191 the food chain. And now the site is being declared [ IO] construction complete, or will be declared construction i [ I 11 when they, 1 think it s paved cap, a certain arca in the 1121 swamp. Not even removing the contaminants that are [ IS] there, but they re going to cap this hot spot in a swamp [ 14] that floods. Makes a 101 of sense.

L'S1 The other sile is the lake thal we knew was [ 16] contaminated with PCBs and substances from the original ~ 171 Superfund site. Now, the good news is  and 1 m seeing ~ [ 18] a change in government after all these years. It was ii91 very interesting to go to this meeting of senators,

[ zol representatives, DEQ ofiicials, and lind them all looking I [ ZI] at me peculiar. Like we vc already agreed that WC want ~ 1221 to as the governor for this lo bc a Superfund site, but NACEPT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS NEW BEDFORD, MA June 18,2003 ___ Page 630 Page 632 11~ we rc concerned about you community people whether or not [ II the 60s. So, you know his passion for civil rights and ( 21 you want it. For God sake we ve been wanting it all [ z] this kind of issue. What I asked him to do and he is ~ 31 along. He said, well you know some people are concerned 131 doing is going through our entire organization training [ 4j about their property values being devalued. I said, are ~ 41 our staff on what EJ issues are all about. Because from ~ 51 you kidding, we ve got no property values. Maybe if you ( 51 a professional organization it s difficult to understand 161 clean this up, we 11 begin to get some back. So that s [ 6] the considerations. And I think one of the things,` and ( 71 just a little part of your first question. ~ 71 Michael hit on this, and that s the difI5culty of PI One of the problems with EJ and health  again, [ al listening. It s the difficulty of knowing how to listen ~ 91 you know everybody s talked about you re dealing with [ Q] from a regulator s standpoint. And Ill give you some [ ICI] people who fall on the lower income scale. The houses, [ IO] examples why it is difficult to listen and the [ 111 they rc proud of their houses. But the fact of the [ I 11 difficulties in listening. [ 121 matter is the houses tend to be substandard. And I 11 [ 121 First, Michael made a point about community, [ I 31 tell you another little known secret. When a developer [ I~ I which was really good. You d like it to be considered ( 1+ comes in and builds houses for black people, he doesn t ~ 141 the neighbors next door. From a state regulator [ rs] build them at the same quality as he builds for white [ 151 standpoint  now again, hundreds of cleanups. But we ~ 161 people even though they cost the same thing. There s a ~ 171 significant differcncc in the quality of construction in 1 [ i6] have occasions where the aldermen and the city government ( 171 of a community want to do things one way, and it s the [ 181 black homes and in white homes. So, our people are 119; living in houses that are substandard that don t keep [ zo] pollutants out. So, they rc getting extra exposure that [ Z~ I a more, what do you want to say, a fucnt community would [ ia] people next door they seem to do it another way. They [ IQ] want something different. We have to encounter the ( 201 question who do WC listen to. Do we listen to those [ zil people who have been elected as representatives in a [ zz] not sulP` cr. And add to that, people who may lack money 1221 democratic process for that area, for that city? Or do ~ ._~____ Page 631 ~ Page 633 ( 11 to 13~ 1)' the kinds of fruits and vegetables rich in vitamin [ II you listen to some local people? It s a tough question. [ n] 1; that help them to get rid of free radicals that cause ( 21 And it s something we have to consider as we do our ~ 31 some of these health problems. [ 31 regulatory process.

141 So, yes, Environmental Justice communities are I41 There s another concern and that is, is this , s] at ; I difltrent kind of disadvantage from other , [ s] issue being used by people  the Environmental Justice [ cl communitics. hnd I think that that in itself should be I `,.. ~ 61 IISUC being used for alternative reasons? I 11 give you [ 7; made a part of the hazard ranking system that does sort [ 7] an example. Outside of the city of Chicago  and again, ( 81 01. bump them up because their needs are greater. [ al this is not a Superfund thing. But outside the city of IQ1 MS. HERRERA: Okay, Gary, I m going to go with [ Q] Chicago there is a black community, small community. [ j 01 you because he left his card down there. [ IO] It s generally poor, but the leaders of that community ifi1 MR. KING: Okay. 1 was going to say a few [ I 11 are well educated. They made the decision that it was [ I*! things. 1 m gl; ld to hear a EJ discussion for and I get [ IZ] the best thing for their community from the future of jq31 to respond back. lisually 1 don t get to that. So, I m ,113~ development of it that it have a waste incinerator. Come [ 141 going IO say some things that you don t like to hear, but 1141 into that community because they felt it was going to be ~ 151 1 ni going to say them anyway. 1151 safe. They looked at evcrything. They looked at all the IiW Imamanager  I head up our cleanup programs ~ 161 technical issurs. They said this is going to be safe. j17: for the state of Illinois. ( Inaudible) our IIPAs. So, [ I 71 This is going to generate revenue for our community. !* B] I m rcasonablc for hundreds of sites a year.` I` he EJ [~ a] It s going to be leading  it s a positive thing for the ( 191 issue is an important one for us. And we have an EJ 1191 future. I'cople from outside of the community, in fact [ TOI officer. I Ie s ; I young black  I d like to think he s 1201 they WCTC white people, came in and said this is an [? j: young because he s my age. So, I would think he s young. [ z?] I~ nvironn~ cntal Justice issue. And that this is an impact [ 27j I% obably hc is not. But he grew up in Sclma. Alabama in [ 221 on an l~ nvironmental Justice community and really the II.___   Z. z

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Page 634 .

Page 636 [ i] people that are there don t know what is best for them.

[ z] And they used that issue in essence to stop that project.

PI Who do we listen to from a state regulator [ 4] standpoint? How much do we take cognisance of those are 151 coming in from the outside and now are using it, an EJ [ 6] issue, making what I would cali fancy legal arguments to [ fl stop the wiU of the community.

PI Thisisa in the city of Chicago in a suburb 191 outside the city of Chicago. One an all black area, the [ lo] other basically an all white area. Same type of site,

[ 1 I] okay. We work with the African American community and we [ lz] heard what they wanted to have done. The project moved [ I?.] forward very smoothly, got done. In the white community [ 14] people were, they were too damn smart for their good.

IIS] They wouldn t listen to what we said was the appropriate [ is] thing to do. They wouldn t listen to the PRPs that were [ 17] working on the project, and as a result that project has [ is] been a mess for years. It s ruined their community. In ( 191 the one instance  and again this is an instance of ( 201 sometimes here is a white community, they were just too [ zl] smart for their own good. And they ve caused a problem [ zz] for their whole community relative to that cleanup. _____ : I] used those two examples, because it is an idea you want : z] to do the best for the communities, but they are, and [ 3] I ll repeat pimps, for the communities.

[ 41 MS. HERRERA: Veronica.

I51 MS. ROBINSON: I U just agree with what Charles [ 6] says. I don t know, I might be saying something that is m a little bit unpopular but I m just going to go ahead and [ a] say it. And I mean unpopular with people on the panel,

[ g] too. I have watched sitcs. There s a site in particular IO] in the community where I live, which in an African II] American community, Roxbury. And there s a Brownfields IZ] site there called Modern Electroplating, and it really 131 should be a Superfund site. It s one of the worst 141 Brownfields sites in Massachusetts. But anyway the 151 owners of that site are in prison. EPA did an emergency 161 removal action. The state did an emergency action. hll 171 kinds of liens on the property. Property started moving 181 forward for redevelopment after years after having been 191 shut downAnd there were a couple of teams of 201 redevelopment teams that were ready to come in and do the 211 remediation and clean up lhe site. One team was financed zz] by a very wealthy family and developer from Boston,

Page 635 Page 637 PI So, again I m bringing those outAnd those are 121 kind of my experiences with these kind of issues coming [ 3] from the direction I ve been coming from. If you care to 141 comment, if you cart to

El MS. HERRERA: Thank you, very much. It s 5: OO [ s] and what we re going to do is we rc going to ask for o] reactions from Charles and then Veronica, and Michael and [ a] Florence. And remind people that we do have a posted Ls] public comment period for 900. We re going to a little [ IO] over, and please have that in mind. We do have dinner 11 I] this evening, and so we will take Grant, and Bill, and ( 121 Doris, and Aimee s questions. And that s where we stand 1131 at this time.

[ I41 MR. UTLEY: Let me just say you really have to ( 151 look through the clouds when you talk to the people. It IIS] doesn t matter what they perceive themselves to be. I ~ 17) still say that they are pimps for pimping our [ I E+] communities. They can stand and say that they are for 1191 those communities, but let me just tell you look through [ zo] the clouds. And I m saying I think you re remain wise LX] enough from what you ve said to look through those [ 22] clouds. And that s in all communities. And I m glad you I [ i] white. Had a really wonderful team. An environmental [ z] group, conservation law foundation, which as a good [ 3] reputation was involved, and a number of others. Thcy [ 4] were willing to throw in redeveloping or redesigning : I [ s] park right across the street from this site. They wcrc [ 6] going to create extra office space. AU sorts of things.

[ 7] All sorts of amenities that made it look like this was i [ a] the best way to go.

PI There was another development team that was an [ to] AfricanAmerican who had no experience with BrownAclds.

[ ii] He had been developing housing, low income housing, but [ IZ] he put in his bid for this site. Most of the oflicc [ 13] space he was going to create was going to be for his own [ 14] company, so he wasn I really bringing new income into the [ is] area. And he didn t have the funds or the connections to [ i6] do this park.

( 171 The Boston Redevelopment Authority left it up lo [ IS] the community and said, you know, we want you to decide [ ig] who you want to do this. The community choose the [ zo] African American because they knew him and they trusted [ zl] him. hd while 1 sat there and I watched that process,

[ 22] and I kept thinking wow, that conservation law li) undaliorr Page 634  Page 637 ( 86) Min U Script@ For The Record, Inc.  ( 301) 870 8025 NACEFT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS NEW BEDFORD, M June 18,200:

Page 636 ( I] team was the one to choose. 1 mean. this would have been [ 2] a great park. It was a process that the community had to [ 3] go through lo take back their own power and to make their ~ 41 own decisions. In the end that property is still sitting 151 there, and it s not redeveloped and it has tons of ~ 61 problems around it.

[ 71 I% ut 1 think that sometimes in order to give the ( a] respect to the community and to allow the community to 191 I, tlild itself LIP, sometimes there is a bitter pill that [ lo] has to 1~ swallowed. But in the end 1 think long term ! I 11 the rcsuhs are going to be good. So, 1 just offer that LIZI example and that piece of advice. 1 think the important [ 13] thing is building capacity within the community.

1141 ( END OF TAPE)

[ 151 MR. LYTHCOTT:  Chicago. Onaudible).

Ci61 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arc you trying to get people [ 17j in trouble or what?

[ la1 MR. LYTHCOTT: Let s sayTameny llall in New 119; York. And you re the slate ploy. 1 mean, if you weren t ( zo] on the mayor s short list, you know, MayorTameny 1 [ zi] guess. No. You know what 1 m saying? So, the issues pz] are real and they re tough.

111 In terms of your community and the incinerator [ z] Cold people will gladly acccpl blankets when the winter 131 is coming. Not knowing that before they get their 141 blankcls that there s small pox wrapped inside, possibly.

151 1 lo\ zc working with engineers and lawyers, bccausc you [ 6] get so char. II s Like c& her this thing if you can 171 weigh it and centrifuge il, if it s got a spccilic [ a] gravity. and then it exists. Otherwise, you know.

PI You look at a community and you can tell if it s [ jc] cliscnfranchised. 1 hate to take New Bedford because [ it] wc rc in New Bcdford. And 1 hate to take the CapeVerde [ IZI community, l~ c:~ usc thal s my people and WC rc hcre. They [ iq used have a bunch of soccer fields, and baschall Gelds,

1141 and beaches down along the rivcr. Ycah, down along the

[ ii] yeah. the Acushhnct. And then a seawall was built and Ii61 all that was q) nc.` l'hen lhey had the standard times ~ 17; balllicltl, which 1 g: lless went to see yestcrday?` l'hen [ iq that s contaminated, and the contaminated soil from that [ iq acts I" II over in another ballfield. No1 taken to he ~ 201 disposed of somewhere. but actually taken and put in [ 2i) ariothcr field msidc 111~ Cape Verdian community.

1721 And so you look and you say well, gee the plan [ I] makes sense for the city of New Bedford, but after a [ z] while, you know, can 1 get a bat? Can 1 get a chance at [ 3] the plate? You do still have the dilemma. Hearing the [ 4] elected officials saying they want one thing and her s ~ 51 the community. But you should have some sense of whether [ q or not there s a paltern of exclusion there. Or is it ~ 71 just are these ideas are so far apart, is it unreasonable ( 81 what the community wants? Are they just asking for a p] piece oP the pie? If you re going to take my home from IO] me for pennies on the dollar and then  in Pensacola.

I I] As 1 said, they took those homes for pennies on the 121 dollar. The minute it was transferred, the ownership of 14 the land was transferred, its value increased 400 141 percent. So, just on whoever took possession of that 151 land  let s say 1 bought your house of $ 50,000  1 m 161 bad with math. Just by the fact that it now belongs to 171 be and 1 get my buddies to re zone it, that same piece of ['

I'

1.

I I[. I'

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1.

[ i 81 land 1 gave you $ 50,000 for on paper  1 ve sure you ve [ lq all seen the late night infomercial. On paper that land / Izo] is now worth $ 300,000. So, come on, this is not rocket ~ 211 science. This is not hidden. It s not a cultThis ..  [ zz] Environmental Justice stuff is culpable, it s reaLThe Page 639 Page 641 Page 640 [ I] old blues man, is you is, or is you ain t. And yes,

[ z] there are people in my community, that s the ( a] Environmental Justice activist community, that 1 say what I 141 will the preachers do when the devil is saved? There are [ q people who don L want the devil to get any better,

[ q because they know devil ain t no gig. Nothing to talk ( 71 about in church on Sunday. They don t want you to get [ a] better, because environmental racism they become issue [ g] pimps. For it their cause for existence. Yes, so [ IO] there s problems on both sides. But that doesn t mean , ( 1 I] that we have to point fingers at each other and decide 1121 it s IOO complex, WC can t deal with it. Let s get real.

( 131 MS. HERRARA: Thanks, Michael. Florence, if you ( 141 could bc real quick.

[ I51 MS. ROBINSON: WeII actually, my colleagues have [ iq answered this question so eloquently 1 don t need to make 1171 any further comments.

I 181 MS. HERRERA: You are wonderfuLAnd now my [ IS] conclusion is giving it back to the sister here.

WI MS. McCLAIN: And my conclusion is to thank you [ a] fijr your cars and to really talking about Environmental (~ 1 Justice bctwecn now and the finalization of the report we _..

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Min U Scrip& ( 87) Page 638  Page 641 NEW BEDFORD, MA June l& 2003 NACEPT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS Page 642 Page 644 [ i] intend to scrutinize the strong task that is before us. 111 so even if it s raining, we li be under cover. So, don t [ z] And we will provide written comments to make sure that [ z] worr; l about that part. You might want to be coat or [ ZI] the perspectives and the recommendations that should be [ 3] something, because there is an outside and it may be a ( 41 there in reference to Environmental Justice cut across ( 41 little cool in the building. But there is cover there.

[ 5l all the issues that we are addressingThank you so [ s] We would really encourage everybody to come. I think it ( 61 much. And we turn it back over to the chair. [ 6] will be a good time and a liltle local flavor so lo [ 71 MR. LYTHCOTT: May I say one more think. ( 71 speak. And we also have a special event we need to PI MS. McCLAIN: No. i [ a] celebrate, and we d like all of you to participate in [ Ql MR. LYTHCOTT: I want to just say. No, really. [ g] that. So, again 7: 00 and if last night s any judge, the [ IO] I said a lot of things about New Bedford because I work [ IO] bus left at 7 minutes and 15 seconds after 7: 00 I think.

[ rl] with Old BedfordVillage Development Corporation and [ I I] so don t be late or you U be boiling your clams.

[ QJ Hands Across the River, and they have given me [ I21 Why don t we go ahead an initiate the public I131 information and I m up here a lot. I don t have any [ 13] comment and then as Hay said we ll talk a little bit [ 14] facts to back that. And I see the mayor is here, and I [ 14] about the plans for the rest of the day and tomorrow.

[ is] don t want to get on his bad list. So, if you re s151 MR. LOEHR: The first name on the list is a Mr.

[ 16] concerned about what I said, check it out. And I was [ 16] Larry Silverman. Is Mr. Silverman here? If he is, would 1171 really expecting them to be here, and they re not. [ ifl he come to the Fphonc in the middle of the room,

[ 181 MS. ROBINSON: Well that how we in Environmental [ ia] please. Looks liki Mr. Silverman is not able to be with [ in] Justice are actually usually do it. We clean it up and [ IQ] us even though tic signed up for it.

[ zo] then we invite you to work with us. Thanks a lot. I WI We have the nleasurc of having the individuals PiI MR. LOEHR: On behalf of the subcommittee, let [ 21] that spoke to us last evening back further comments.

[ zz] me thank the panel for being with us. I m delighted that [ z] I ll do it in the sat, order that they appeared last Page 643 Page 645 [ I] you re going to be spending a little more time with us to 121 talk to the individuals one on one, or small group to [ 3] small group. But really pleased, personally, as the [ 4l chair of the committee, subcommittee, but also on behalf 151 of the overall subcommittee that you re with us. And I [ s] deeply thank Mildred. And I deeply Dolores for arranging [ 7] for lhis. It s been great. Thank you.

PI If the Superfund subcommittee can return to the [ 9] table, we have some public comments that it s time for.

[ to] And we ll listen to those and engage in some commentary 11 I] as we did last evening. And then we 11 see the time and [ IZ] how you feel about continuing on depending upon the time.

1131 So, again, we have three individuals who have indicated ~ 141 the desire to talk to us about the specific issues, and [ IS] weIl take those comments right now, as soon as WC get the 1161 subcommittee members back to the tabIe. You too,

117) Mildred, you can come back.

[ l61 MR. EHRMANN: While everybody is getting ~ 191 organized, let me just remind you of the dinner [ zo] situation. The transportation like last might will be [ zt] available at 7: 00 out in front of the hotel.?` he place [ z] we re going for the clam boiler has an indoor building, [ i] evening. First individual is Sandra Jaquith. hnd you ( 21 may recall her eloquent comments from last evening, and [ 3] we re looking forward to her comments for this evening.

141 Thank you, Sandra, for being with LIS.

[ 51 MS. JAQUITH: Thank you very much for letting me [ 6] speak again this evening. I know it s been a long day,

( 71 so I II try to focus in on a few points. Couple things [ a] that came up during your discussion I wanted to make a [ 9] comment on.

[ lOI The gentlemen over here I believe, perhaps right ~ 1 I] in front of me, who asked about how to improve the LIZ] language in the report to better communicate with pcoplc ~ 131 One of the ways to do that would be to release a draft 01 [ 14] our report to the public for comment before it goes into [ 15] t ma1 form. And so iC you could perhaps put lhat on your [ i6] agenda, that I think might bc helpful.

I[ 171 Also, I ve already given Veronica and Michael [ IS] fair warning, but 1 had a question for each ol' them liom [ rg] their presentations that I m asking them to respond to [ zo] during the public comment pcriod.` l` hcrc s simple / [ ZI] questions, md I m afraid they might be : I Little bit [ zz] complicated answers. 13ut Veronica talked to ~ OLI ~ IX~ LII ~~._ .~~. ___~ ~~~ ~~~~~ I Page 642  Page 645 ( 88) Min U Script@ For The Record, Inc.  ( 301) 870 8025 NACEF'T SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS NEW BEDFORD, M June 18,200:

Page 646 [ I] the balance of power with El% attorneys in this process.

[ z] And my experience with that issue is very real and very ~ 31 meaningful.` l'he Rocky Mountain Arsenal  and of course [ 4] in that situation you have a Federal facility. So, you [ 5] have DOJ attorneys and EI` A attorneys, and DOJ 161 representing both EPA and the Army. I mean it gets [ 7] relatively complicated.

PI But Shell Oil Company contributed 80 percent of [ g] the contamination with the Rocky Mountain ArsenaLAnd [ I 01 they ended up paying about 20 percent of the cleanup [ 111 cost.` l` hey got a really, really good deal. And I don t LIZ] think that is an unusual occurrence. I think that ~ 131 happens a lot. At the Shaddick Superhmd site where they ~ 141 overturned the decision and decided to move the already 11 s] monolithed radioactive contamination out of the ~ 161 community The new ROD was written by EPA in such a way ~ 171 that it allowed Citi<; roup, the company that owns the [ ie] sltc, to avoid any further liability on the site. I [ T~ I mean, it was just incrcdible. And despite of public ~ 201 comments and many public comments to El'A about how they [ zi] had designed their report, they went forward with that [ zz] and got very. very little further from CitiCroup in this Page 647 1 I [ I] next clean up effort, even though CitiGroup was part and [ z] parcel of a very illegal process for reaching the [ 3] original decisions.

PI So. those arc the sorts of things that are going 151 on in the process that cause a lack of funding that [ s] normally would be available. And I d like to have [ T] Veronica comment on any suggestions she has for this 181 committee on how to improve in any kind of realistic way 191 the balance of power of EPA in this process.

r ai I also wanted to ask Michael if we would comment ~ 1 I] on and explain what he meant with his comment about j121 tr; insactional costs and how high transactional costs are [ IX] to the Supcrf'und program. Because as familiar I am with ( 141 I think many of'issucs you rc talking about, I really [ is] didn t understand what that was and why those costs were [ 16] important. hnd hc talked about it in the context of the [ TTI polluter pays conccpt. And 1 d like him just to explain 1101 more' about what that was with any recommendations he [ i9] might have to this committee on how to address that.

[ a And a gentlemen over here earlier from Illinois (~ 11 was talking about  and 1 thought it was very [ z: J] intcrcsting he talked about what it was like to listen to [ II decision about that tie up the problems and exacerbate ! ) 121 the Icngths of these clean ups. So, I wanted to ! 131 encourage you to somehow include that in your thoughts ~ 41 about what you rc doing here.

K Technical advisors was mentioned I think by [ s] iMichael as an important aspect to this, and I would like ~ 71 to reemphasize that. And on behalf of every community [ s] group I ve ever know to emphasize it so like a hundred 191 million times for you in that short order. It s really [ IO] essential. I was just at a technical assistance grant [ I 11 conference in Albuquerque in February, and the ~ ( 121 communities that came all gave presentations on what `( 131 they rc doing with the technical advisors and the 1141 information that they had brought forward. hnd it s [ ISI amazing the positive impacts they ve had on all of these 1161 sitcs.?` hcrc has been rumor this past year that those ( 171 funds are going to be drying up. And so it s [ ra] particularly important that you identify that as an [ I91 important aspect of the Superfund program.

I201 And then just a couple of quick things. I noted ! [ zi] thal on page I2 at the bottom you talked about  there s [ zz] ; I comment at the very bottom regarding  looking a place .

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Page 646 [ l] people and their concerns within these many communities [ z] and stakeholder communities. And it s an issue that we [ 3] all look at regardless of the position that we have in 14) this process. And is he in the room right now? I ll try [ s] to fmd him separately. But I would simply like to throw IS] out the idea that he talked about the ulterior motives of [ 7] EJ community people in terms of using this as a tool [ a] elsewhere. I would invite him and the rest of you to 191 continually look at the ulterior motives of any of people IO] and particularly the elected officials in this process I I] with the decisions they bring forward.

121 I know in our community one of the behind the is] scenes deals that was made is that elected officials I I[

1141 agreed to have a water treatment plant and replacement [ us] water put into the community. And part of the agreement [ 16] they actually signed with Shell Oil Company is that they 1 [ ITI would not raise any further complaints about the process [ IS] and about the remedyAnd that leaves it to the citizens [ ig] to raise those concerns, because they have by contract 120) agreed not to do that in order to get a payoff. And [ ZI] often times there are payoffs in these communities that [ 22: 1 very f'cw people have been part and parcel to making a .~  .~~~ ~ ~.

Page 649 ( 89) Page 646  Page 649 NEW BEDFORD, MA June Us, 2003 NACEFT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMI'I'TEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS Page 650 [ I] marker here. And it says the enforcement of [ z] institutional controls and engineerir. g controls to ensure [ a] that resources are spent on cleanup of new sites rather [ 4] than f& g old sites. I would just like to emphasize [ s] for again that institutional controls are part of the [ s] active remedy. I mean, that is the very basis upon which 17) we re deciding not to spend money to clean up these [ a] sitesAnd it s not a matter of furing old sites, it s a ( q matter of continuing the remedy that was in place. And [ ioj many of those sorts of institutional controls are in facl [ ii] in place on hot spot cleanup contamination sites. I [ jz] think that the idea here needs to be addressed in terms [ js] of including long term institutional controls, as I said [ r4] yesterday, in your Superfund remedy selection and ( 151 process, and how we re going to do that in the future.

[ I61 There s another place where you talk about [ i7] states picking up the cost of long term institutional [ is] controls. Whether it be states or the Department of the [ lq Interior, one of the huge problems is that the costs are [ zo] being passed along to other people.

PII So, that is actually where my final comment is 1221 going to go to the big picture of what you re doing here.

Page 651

[ i] I was looking at New Bedford s information that was 121 present out frontAnd in a really wonderful color [ q brochure here and slidesAnd one of the things they [ 4] said after all of your meetings with them, et cetera, et [ s] cetera, is that we should recognize that Superfund is [ G] underfunded. Nice big yellow letters on blue. And [ TI advocate for additional funding to protect public health.

[ a] I said it yesterday, I 11 say it again today. It s the 191 biggest problem you have with Superfund. My sense in [ ro] this discussion is that you ve been tasked to try to Tmd [, I] to not put more into they system and somehow pull pieces ~ 121 of contaminates properties out the Superfund system and [ is] send them elsewhere to be cleaned up. There s not enough ~ 141 money anywhere that I can tell to clean up the problems [ rs] that we have. And so what happens in this process in [ 16] many ways is exemplified in the discussion about ~ 171 Environmental Justice Because there s not enough money [ le] anywhere for these cleanups, these all become political ,19] processes. And I can t believe that everybody here po] doesn t know that. YOU know, it becomes less about 1211 science and more about what kind of political prcssurc [ z) you can put at your site to get a certain kind of cleanup  [ I] in a certain amount of time. Page 652 PI As an example of that, I would focus you all

[ 3] many of you may be aware of this, but Spring Valley in [ 4] Washington, D. C. has recently been identified as major [ q contamination site with munitions from World War I. And [ s] this is a place with very, very, very expense homes and r] embassies, and very well educated people who have a lot [ a] of money. The major arsenic levels in the soils all [ q around the area. This is a site where when this was lo] identified just about three years ago, there was such an 1 i] uproar of political activity that Spring Valley within 121 the defense community got a lot of money that year pulled 131 off other sites that had already been identilied as 141 having priority to be put on Spring Valley because of 151 their political connections. They got site 161 characterization and sampling that no body in the counlry 171 can get. We think they should have that. We re not 181 saying they shouldn t have it. We all want it. What 191 Spring Valley got, give to the rest of us and put enough 201 money in the system that everybody can be treated the way 211 people with money and high property values arc treated in 221 this country. And that s exactly what EJ communities arc Page 653 [ I] saying. Is because they have low property vdhcs and [ z] they re considered to be essentially throw away i [ 3] communities like the community that I came from, which is [ 4] a lower middle class Hispanic working community. You can [ q shoulder the burden of contamination. For heaven s sake [ 6] you moved there because they had cheap l~ ouses, right? So [ 7] you should be able to suffer through the process of this.

[ a] And in fact, I agree with them thal those communities [ g] should be put at the top of the list rather than the [ io] Spring Valley communities.

[ Ill In terms of breaking this apart  taking large 1121 sites and breaking them into pieces, which is the ncxl ~ 131 step of what you re looking at with how do you do the [ 14] shell game of  we take the highest contamination sites [ is] and we clean those Up, lhe hot spols, and maybe let [ I61 everything else wait. I can only pass on a couple 01 I[ 171 observations for a citizen s standpoint. 1 don t know [ ia] who is advocating this, but they may be contrary to whal [ 19] you think you re going to get out 01` that proc~ ss. A~~ d 1 ~ 201 can see the advantages and disadvantages 1211 But as a citizen al l< ocky Mounlain Arsenal.

[ 22] where we had a 181 sites and WC had Shell Oil Compaq mge650 Page653 ( 901 Min U Script@ For The Record, Inc.  ( 301) 870 8025 NACEPT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS NEW BEDFORD, m June 18,200,

111 with lots of money to lead the fight about what kind of [ z] clean up we were going to get. Which ended up not being 131 clean up, but rather a cover up. We advocated for the 141 break up of that site into several operable units.

[ s] Because our believe was that if we had several smaller 161 operable units for cleanup that the citizens, and the [ 7] state of Colorado, and the EPA would marshal their [ 8] attention, their energy, and their funds in such a way p] th; lt WC could actually fight more effectively for good [ lo] affective cleanup within our communities.

[ I 11 And when we finally convinced EPA that in fact [ izl it should be broken into at least two operable units, and 113~ the regional administrator sent out a letter to that ( 141 affect. the Army and Shell convinced everybody to go [ is] behind closed doors without any more public input. And ~ 161 they worked out an agreement that kept it at one operable ( 171 unit, bccausc that s what was beneficial for industry and [~ a] that what was benclicial for the polluters.

Ii91 So, my preference, yeah. break these into [ ZOJ smaller pieces and let LIS fight fairly and evenly on [ zi] these lights one by onc. The question then becomes how [ z] yo~ 1 catagorize them and what kind of measures you give Page 654 Page 65fZ [ II working at EPA it was 1989, and it was a time when the [ zI Superfund got a huge infusion of money and regions all ~ 1x1 over the country got tons of lawyers. They grew by 50 [ 4] percent, 100 percent.

ISI I m not suggesting that EPA lawyers and [ 6] government lawyers aren t as affective. But, you know, I [ 7] remember situations where there s me and one DOJ lawyers , [ a] and there are four Iawyers for each PRI? It s a little [ 9] bit intimidating. And it s really just a matter of being [ lo) out lawyered and out numbered. And so as I was sitting I[ rr] there and thinking about this one of the suggesting that ~ 121 I am able to come up with, and I encourage you all to ~ 131 sort of take this issue and sort of brainstorm about it,

,[ 14] and think about it. One site here in Massachusetts,

[ is] which is a Federal facility that I worked with. It s [ ISI called No Man s Land Island. What happened was I did [ 171 some outreach to  we have one Federally recognized [ ie] tribe here in Massachusetts, the Wampanoag of Gay Head [ is] AquinnahAnd I did some outreach to the tribe, and [ zo] found out that the tribe and the state DEP were fighting ~ 211 the same issue. And we ended up getting together a [ 22] coalition, and I m no longer working on that site. But Page 655 Page 657 ( 11 for succcss. And I would suggest that even though you [? I break this into smal Icr units that you still identify ~ 31 them as one, like Rocky Mountain Arsenal One, Rocky 141 Mountain Arsenal Two, Rocky Mountain ArsenalThree, so 1s) that when you rc looking at both close out in terms of 16) measurements of success as well as prioritization at an : rl NPI. site, that all of those pieces are taken into account [ 8) when you determine where they are in this process of [ 9j prioritization.

l'O1 I` hank you again very much for your comments. I [, I] look forward to both Michael and Veronica in terms of [ 121 anhwcring the questions. And than you thr the indulgence ~ 131 thcrc. And I wish ~ OLI the best of luck, and hopcfuully 1141 wc II see again at one of your other meetings.

[ ISI MR. LOEHR: Thank you, Sandra. Veronica, you ve [ 16] been kind enough to stay with LIS and been asked for 1171 supplcmcntxy commcnts. Thank ~ OLI for taking a few [ la] minulcs lo give them to us.

L191 MS. ROBINSON: Certainly. I set that Michael [ 20] has dcscrtctl mc, but 1 II do my bcst. Aclually, you [ 21] know, my answer is 1 don t know. What do you do about [ zz) lhc tmlxtlancc of power? I II) not sure. When I started [ I] the coalition was the state DEP, the tribe, Mass [ 2] Autobahn, the Sierra Club, a host of people who came ( 31 together and were actually able to meet in number what i [ 4] was going on with the Navy and the Fish and Wildlite [ sl Service. So, one notion that popped into my head is that ' [ 6] with respect to access to senior officials and things [ n like that, when EPA regional administrators are meeting 181 with PRPs it might be a good idea to do a little outreach 1 [ 9] to the other folks who are interested in the issue.

[ to1 Whether it s the community, whether it s an environmental ~ [ i I] group, whether it s the state, and have them come in.

[ iz] It s sort of like an equal time doctrine. And if you [ 131 invite them in and you have that conversation, then you ~ 141 hear about their issues and that s one way to supplement ~ 151 the brain power that s happening on the other side when ( 161 you have multiple PRPs that have multiple lawyers. Just ~ ~ 171 one very modest suggestion. And I m happy to continue to [ la] lhink about the answer to that question.

1191 MR. LOEHR: Michael is back and 1 m delighted [ 20] that hc is. There may well be questions that each of you 1211 have for some of the individuals. I would suggest that ~ 221 lirst we listen to everybody and get their comments, and For The Record, Inc.  ( 301) 870 8025 Min U Script@ ( 91) Page 654  Page 657 NEW BEDFORD, MA June 18,2003 NACEIYT SUPERFUND SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS [ I] companies. Let s say that there s a settlement. Who [ z] pays for both sets of lawyers? The insurance company.

[ a] Who pays the settlement? The insurance company.

[ 41 So, the insurance industry took a look at what [ s] all of the tremendous costs that were involved in [ s] determine what percentage of responsibility and ownership 171 on the sites. I don t have the figure with me in my ~ 81 head, but that figure was so staggering that it could [ Q] have cleaned up even some of the sites that Charles said [ IO] we don t want to know about.