Thanks, everyone. So there were absolutely lots of great questions. We were thinking maybe we could take one from Pumzile, a great presentation from Gambia. This is for Alpha. For why does stakeholder participation, how do you hope to engage parents for collaboration and information sharing? So, Alpha, if you are with us, if you wouldn't mind sharing that, perhaps C.D. or Jerry. Okay. Thank you. Can you hear me? Yes, I think that is a very important question. Like I said, what we are trying to do in the Gambia is to, during the inception, to bring it to the stakeholders. When we go to the schools, we have school management committees that include the parents. The parents are part of the school management committee. That's where we are disseminating and selling the idea of this new sieve and the bare role. This is where we are really using parents. And again, the school has what we call modus club. So these two communities, through the PTA, Parental Association, the modus club and the school management committee, we really hope to engage the parent. And so far, the data we have collected at individual level, the parents were very, very responsive. We were worried that when we start asking them new data about them, only two private schools, that were the international private schools, wrote back to us and say, why do you ask data about our children? Then we wrote back and then, luckily, even these big private schools that are international, they responded. Thank you. So Alfa, having you here, you're actually the first speaker of this building capacity across sectors. So that's your slide. Yes. This is a very important one. Actually, one of the things that motivates us is the fact that DHS2 has been in education, in health, in the health sector for a very long time. And even though the health sector in the government will consider the education sector as the better in terms of data, we wanted to see what they were doing. And the fact that every child that we are monitoring has gone through the health system. In another word, every community that has a school is likely to have a primary health care center or a clinic nearby in the district. So before they come to the school, they all meet at this area with their modus or their parents. So we thought if DHS is around, it's at the health system and they are measuring and looking at the children from pregnancy up to when they are three or older, before they come to school, the best place would be, how do we write on that infrastructure and infrastructure? So this is one of the things that definitely we thought will address our biggest challenge. Our biggest challenge has been out of school. We don't have any systematic approach addressing out of school in the Gambia. We only wait until development partners come and give us support to do a study on out of school. But we hope with the DHS at health and education, we will be able to link the birth certificate that when children are born at the district level, district clinic level, we will be able to get the number of children's data.  So when they are older, like three-year-old, for early childhood education, or seven-year-old, we can still go and look for them. But this time, it is a targeted approach. We are going to their homes. And when we come to the home, we will be asking, where is CD? Where is Alpha? Not in the other way we are looking at out of school. How many children are not going to school in the community? So the question would be more targeted. And we thought that will help increase the birth certificate. And when birth certificate is increased in the Gambia, the admission register age reporting will be increased. And that is very useful for our NER. And again, it is linked to inclusive agenda. We will be able to see how they are behaving, how ready, ready to learn. That's an SDG indicator. We hope that will help the education data, the health data administration, and their physical health well-being would be very useful to help us address readiness to learn indicator that we are supposed to report. So again, in terms of remote learning opportunities, because we are talking about how do we monitor remote learning? If we are having one data system at health and education, we will be able to use this opportunity to make sure that remote learning and teaching is also assured. Unless you have a wider capacity of people dealing with that. Then the capacity challenge would be mitigated. Because like we said that it will not be only one sector. When our minister go to finance looking for data support, he has now another minister at the cabinet helping to achieve the same challenge. So we are going to have a bigger voice at the macro level asking for the same challenge. So the issue of data at the national level and ensuring that there is funding, there is scalability, there is support at the national level would really be assured if we are able to have one data system from the health education and in the Gambia, we have got other department axing. The minister of transport have come and they are axing. The national council for city education are right now axing us and we joined the minister of finance because of the national development plan. They want to access to join our system because luckily for education in the Gambia, we have been leading the data system and because we have gone to the HHS, they thought they can jump in and work with us. But we are saying give us some time while you are working with our partners and trying to make sure we have a very strong proof of concept before we can get everybody on board. But there is a huge opportunity that we can have, we can begin to have interoperability of the system and an e-government system. Thank you. Thank you so much, Alpha. Then I can call Prosper Bembesi from Hispuganda to talk a little bit about the building and the capacity but also the linkages between the sectors that Hispuganda has worked a lot with. Over to you, Prosper. Thank you very much, Christine, and thank you attendees for sponsoring this conference. Good to have a great number. Just to share a little bit about how the education can benefit from the capacity that has been due for over 25 years in the DHIS too. This is basically what we have relied on for Uganda, supporting Uganda, supporting the ESRA team. So in terms of the capacity, we look at utilizing the existing capacity that has been built in the health sector to support the implementation and the care. And here we already see some good examples, of course, for the Hispuganda that has been supporting DHIS to poor health in the past 10 years in Uganda. And you've also seen from the Sri Lanka team how easily the Hisp team was able to come in and support the education sector. So we look at that as a core, and that's what has helped many of the countries to quickly get on to the DHIS too. So the ministries, the Hisp networks has really played a great role in terms of the capacity building. Then when it comes to the district and the lower levels, again, we did look at utilizing the district by statisticians and the HMIS focal persons as the commissioner mentioned in the presentation to continuously support and build the capacity of the education team at the lower levels. And this for Uganda, as you can see in the training, in the picture there, we were able to bring the health teams at the district and the education teams at the district, train them together, support them, and when they went back to the districts because of the proximity and the offices, they were able to support and continuously support the districts in the data collection analysis and also visualization. In terms of the cross sector data use and the sharing, we see this as also a greatest pillar in terms of building a stronger team in education. When we start with the leadership, a question that was also asked on the platform, how the leadership can be engaged, we've had good champions in the health, especially for Uganda. We've had from the top the ministers to the lowest district health person really using the NCHS2 and supporting other teams. One of the meetings we had with the minister of education, P.S., he was able to mention that he's seen his counterpart in the minister of health just by a click of a button being able to use the NCHS2 and get the statistics in her office. And that was a great motivation to us and him to be able to support this NCHS2. So the leadership, both at the national level between the different sectors or ministries, it plays a great role in terms of strengthening the implementations. When it comes to also the partners, we've had good champions, partners in health. And good enough, these partners also work in education. Examples would be UNICEF, which as you've seen in the SWAT team supported so greatly in the implementation of the NCHS2 here in Uganda. The UNICEF has been a very key partner as far as health is concerned. So that's really one of those kind of partnerships that have been used in NCHS2 really plays a big role in trying to support education sector to improve this system. Uganda as we talk now, we've had a change of leadership. We are now having the minister of state for health. Now moving, we feel like the skills and the use of digital that you're seeing in education in health will be moving with her to the education. So these are some of the few points we wanted to share with you in terms of across. Are we losing you Prosper? Support and partnership. Super Prosper, thank you. And for those of you who want to hear more about the innovations that his Buganda have done in order to support the cross sector data use, you can listen into Prosper on the plenary session at one o'clock tomorrow on the data use session. So we are sort of on time. And the last point of the agenda is actually our panel. So Knut, I will call upon you to present your panel. And we will hear more about how we can together collaborate, scale MS2 to the whole country, but to other countries as well on how to finance it. Over to Knut starting. Thank you very much, Christine. And I'm very honored and pleased to be able to present a very prestigious panel with very experienced people who will discuss this important topic of how do we actually scale the implementations, make sure they're sustainable and financed, and how can we all collaborate around that. So just since we don't have too much time, I will very quickly introduce the panel. We are lucky to have Mr. Shem Bodo, who is a Senior Programs Officer at the Association for the Development of Education in Africa, ADEA. We also have Margaret Irving, who is an economist with a global partnership for education, GPE. We have Louise Crouch, Chief Technical Officer and Vice President at the International Development Group with RTI International. And we have Pierre Chaplet, who is a program specialist focusing on education policies, planning and management at UNESCO in Paris. So thank you very much to the panelists for joining us today. And without further ado, I'd like to hand over to Mr. Shem Bodo to provide his perspective. Thank you very much and good morning, good afternoon, good evening, colleagues. With regards to the topic in the panel, as in ADEA, we have been collaborating with African countries under the African Union and its regional economic communities guided by the Education Observatory, which is IPED, as well as the actors in the education space. And this we have been doing since the enactment of the DACA EFA framework for action in order to strengthen MS in African countries for informed planning and decision making. And a key need that we have seen throughout our engagement with the countries, especially from addressing national and regional education needs through quality data to monitoring the plan of action for the second decade of education for Africa 2006 to 2015. And now the continental education strategy for Africa 2016 to 2025 is really how to move to scale in terms of capacity strengthening, while at the same time grounding these efforts in policy and legal frameworks. So although, as you've heard from the previous session, some of the African countries have greatly improved their MS over the years, these are really few when we look at the entire 55 African countries. And therefore, the need to scale working practices in order to build a critical mass within the continent is really key. And especially now when COVID-19 has brought a new dimension to what needs to be measured and monitored, and even when we look ahead into the future within the framework of the Fourth Industrial Revolution. There's a need for greater resourcing of MS to address some of these challenges. One of the clarion calls from there has been the need to ring fence funds within the ministry's budget for MS because this helps to implement some of the recommendations arising from some of the work, for example, that there has done through peer reviews in some of the countries. And the second critical factor is really having a partnership ecosystem. A call for partnership and for MS has been there for a long time. But now we've increased access that we have seen, although of course we acknowledge that we have a large group of out-of-school children and youth. And with low quality education in terms of learning outcomes, as we see in some of the sub-Saharan African countries, there is a need for quality data in all its seven dimensions to inform us on what is working and what might not be working. This calls for partners to continue supporting MS. In the wake of COVID-19 and remote education gaining some ground towards a blended approach in personal learning, MS is therefore challenged to collect more data and to report more often as the need to partner with actors such as the Internet community of course parents and the wider community to support the work of strengthening MS. It is clear for us in a day that the new normal will impact MS in new and different ways, considering issues such as gender, equity, inclusion, coming to the fore in the last close to one and a half years since the pandemic began. And therefore the DHIS2 and NORA supporting MS using their knowledge and experience in the health sector is a good and welcome practice that can be emulated by other development partners, the private sector and the general employment market to leverage their experience in other domains to call for innovative solutions for the management and utilization of education data. We in ADEA will continue to collaborate with partners to see how MS capacity can really be broadened and integrated. For example, as part of the courses that high education institutions offer, the need for both vertical integration and this has been mentioned by one of the speakers previously, the need for vertical integration within the education spectrum itself from early childhood all the way to higher education and also the need for horizontal integration by including engagement with other ministries and sectors that are providing skills training is really paramount. We believe MS should be at the lower level where the data is created, generated and used, which is within the school level, of course, while at the same time contributing data for system level solutions. This calls for a critical mass of MS expertise oriented on sound MS principles and this magnitude of expertise and the new discipline cannot be made available without the participation of universities, colleges and other high education institutions within Africa and beyond. Indeed, dealing with this new discipline or approach requires support from seasoned universities that deal with the data system. Finally, from our end as ADEA, we believe that African countries need to demonstrate their political commitment to MS through enactment of sound MS policies and appropriate legal frameworks. This particular aspect really has been pending, it's been in the cart for quite some time and also providing an incentive for other partners to increase their level of support to MS. So this is really what has been our experience and which we wish to continue with this. Thank you very much and back to you. Thank you so much, Mr. Bodo. That is, those are excellent topics, the need for the strong government leadership, both politically, legally and in terms of the budget for MS and your starting point of how to scale the capacity is something that has been at the forefront in our work in the health sector. So we really hope to support that also in education. Then I'll put over to Margaret Irving. Please, Margaret, go ahead. That's great. And thank you all to, well, obviously it's a university of us though, but also very much to all the presenters in the previous sessions. It's been absolutely fascinating to hear the country experiences. I guess I wanted to start off at GPE, the Global Partnership for Education. We often kind of put out our feelers and try to think what are the issues that our countries think are most important. And sometimes I'm a little frustrated because data only comes back fifth, sixth, seventh on the list. And I, of course, am always thinking to myself, data is the most important. We need that good. But rarely I have to remind myself that when we talk about data, almost every problem in education is a data problem. So if you're talking about marginalized groups, what are the issues? Very often we don't have information on those marginalized groups. We're not able to access and track them. And we don't have good information or good evidence, systematic evidence, on what's working in those marginalized populations. So I remind myself and I'm thinking through the comments that I'm making here today. I always tell myself every problem is a data problem. I think what I've been particularly encouraged in hearing from the previous session is, traditionally we've often thought of data as a very top-down thing. It's rarely only used for policy and planning. But increasingly I'm hearing from colleagues and you're seeing in our countries that rarely data is being very much built in to management of the system, not just at centralized high level, but also really at district and school level. So the information is both being collected and used by those for whom it's most important. But in terms of where do we need to focus, what are the things we need to be scaling, financing and how do we deal with collaboration? The issues of course of accuracy and timeliness are always an ongoing challenge for us. I think one of the things that makes answering this question in a few minutes such a tricky thing is that across the cohort of countries that we're dealing with, there are many, many different needs and each country is at a different place with respect to its information architecture. So I think we need to be aware of meeting every country where it's at. But broadly some of the issues that we see coming up and we see needing attention and needing scalable solutions, we still, and I think some of the colleagues mentioned, we still see in many instances that data collection is manual, which is time consuming, it's inefficient, there are far more challenges with respect to accuracy and it certainly affects timeliness. We've heard from many colleagues including Shem who just mentioned that there often is not a good guiding framework for MS. There isn't kind of an architectural framework of policies that really outline how MS should function. And that's not necessarily a scaling problem per se, but it's something that impedes scaling oftentimes. We also see a need for new practices, new and somewhat innovative practices when it comes to reaching more marginalized groups and collecting information on them. And we also need to think long-term, as many colleagues actually have in this particular discussion have already started to do, we need to think long-term a little more about collecting data at individual level where that's practical and feasible. Because those are, that level of data really is where we can start to make an impact. What I think we found very interesting at GPE is we, following the onset of COVID, we very rapidly issued a number of grants to countries who applied. And what we saw was really that the biggest demands on the data side, the biggest demands for support, for funding on the data side, was that countries were struggling to track absenteeism, so children who weren't in schools, and they were struggling to track the outcomes for vulnerable populations. So again, I think that for me reinforces one of those points that I mentioned earlier, this need for new, more innovative, flexible, adaptive ways of gathering data. However, having said all of that, I'm also very aware that we need to think simply as well. Something that I often hear colleagues who work in technology and data say is no one needed to teach them to use their cell phone. So we need to think about how to make things as intuitive as possible, even as we think about expanding and improving and upgrading data collection. Of course, another really kind of recurrent theme is the importance of capacity building. Again, as many colleagues have pointed out, capacity building not just within the central ministry itself, but right down to a district level, to school level, not just for good data collection, but also to understand how to use data. And if we can do that effectively, we really can start to contribute a little towards a culture of data use, a culture of a data-driven culture where there really is very high demand for data, which kind of makes it a virtuous cycle. In terms of financing, what do we need to do about financing? I think Sham had the nail on the head. Basically, the big challenge that we have is that many countries, the budget for MS is not sustainable. Often MSs are put in place by donors. The money within the education budget is not ring-fenced. So it's very hard to plan and to make improvements. So we really need to think about sustainable financing for education, which is something that both countries and we in the donor community need to be thinking through as well. I think finally on the point about collaboration, this is something I would love to see more of. I know there's a real appetite, and I'm sure other colleagues in this panel will affirm, there's a real appetite to build a community. But we don't have nearly a stronger community, I think, as exists in health. One part of that is that we have quite fragmented systems. We have a number of different MS systems that are available. So perhaps that limits technical discussion somewhat. But there are so many issues that are cross-cutting. So all these capacity-building issues, for example, that we're talking about, how to do that effectively is really significant and important for us to share lessons on. But then also again to recognize this idea that the countries where we work are all at different places. And there are so many different kinds of exchanges that need to happen. There are countries who appears at very similar places with the development of their MS and data architecture. And they're kind of learning together. There are countries who maybe are a little further behind to either need to leapfrog or who need or who have the opportunity to learn from countries who have developed a little further from them. I do think there are so many opportunities. There's such strong appetite. One other thing I would like to see, which I know has been a theme and of course is very important for folks at the University of Oslo and DHIS, is the idea that perhaps there's space for a strong community of practice that cuts across social sectors. The problems in health are not that different than the problems in education. And I'm sure there's a lot to be learned as we've just seen from the previous presentation about how to develop more effective data systems across the sectors and how to work towards integrating the data that is collected through these different systems. That's just a couple of thoughts or many thoughts, rather. I'll stop there and open the floor to the next colleague to speak. Thank you so much, Margaret. And also thank you very much for highlighting the needs that have been further put into the limelight by the pandemic. And we need to all collaborate on innovation, but it doesn't have to be complex. Sometimes it will be, but it certainly doesn't have. Thank you so much. Then I'd like to hand it over to Luis Crouch. Please go ahead. Thank you, Newt. I'm going to try to share screen because I actually have a few very simple slides to show. And you'll just bear with me here. So can you see my screen? Yes, thank you. Okay, great. So what I want to do is just have literally share five slides with new directions in EMS after COVID, but also before COVID. And why I say that will be clear in a second. So I want to make just five points. Number one is that COVID was not the shining moment for EMS, honestly. And it's not that COVID created a problem for EMS, but that it revealed problems that it already had. And this is not just EMS in the developing world. It was EMS, you know, even in places that have really good EMSs. It was not ready for a pandemic, not at all. And also in general, it's not just EMS, but the whole education sectors were not ready for the pandemic. So as an example of a weakness is the failure, I will call it that, of most EMS systems to link to SMS techniques, to link to sampling, to surveys, if countries had had, as they have been advised for the last 10 or 15 or 20 years, a simple way to reach the heads of all the PTAs in the country, or even just a fixed panel of the PTAs of the countries, or the principles of the countries, and a simple system for an SMS survey application that is linked to the EMS. We could have had answers to some of these issues that arose with COVID within a week. I have seen SMS based surveys that have results in 72 hours, but we were not ready for that. So part of the implication here is we need to be much more open, much more innovative to doing things quickly, and in ways that are different from the traditional administrative systems that use sampling techniques, that use simple technology like SMS in much more direct ways. And secondly is why do we need more and better data? It's not just that we do, it's because of the emphasis on equity and equality in the SDG4. If you are managing a system towards the average kid, towards the kid at the 50th percentile of the income distribution, you can do with a lot less data. Once equity and equality become a concern, you need to have data basically school by school, not just on input, but on outcomes. And I'll give you a very simple example of why that is so important. So here's an example from some work I did in Peru, where you can look at the social economic index or the poverty of the kids in the school, and their results in fourth grade Spanish. And what you can see is that, of course, the richer kids do better. You can see that the slope of this line is positive, but you can also see that amongst the poorer schools, there are many that do excellently well. There are many schools that are for poor kids that are doing as well as for the rich kids. And in fact, what you can see is that the difference amongst the poor is nearly half the size of the difference between the poor and the rich. And we don't have a good handle on why that happens. And now that we're looking at equity and equality, not just of inputs and not just of access, but of results and learning, we must get a handle on these things. And that means doing quite a bit of innovation in EMIS by linking the administrative data sets to the exams and testing data sets and so on. Third point is that oddly, countries already produce more information than they use. There's actually more information in the EMISs and in related data sets than the countries actually use. And we need to move toward more use by actually showing and demonstrating the utility of the systems for taking managerial decisions, especially kind of school by school at district level. I think the stuff that Alpha Ba has done in the Gambia is a great example of doing that kind of thing. And that requires linking data sets. You have to link the administrative data sets to the exams or testing data sets to other data sets. That means you have to have a really clean master list of schools and all these things, which we've been talking about for 20 years or 30 years, but it's still not done. The fourth and relatedly, the other reason that we need better and more data is not just because it's nice to have, but that is that data have been reasonably adequately used, I would say, for policy and planning, but not for management. So when you talk about EMIS, the EM is not true. They have been EPIS, Education Policy Information Systems, or maybe Education Planning Information Systems. And for that, the data are not bad, but we don't have information for management because that requires desegregating school by school, linking the data sets with each other, and then empowering people at the local level to actually use the data to see why is the school mostly for poor kids, but is doing so well? Why is this school mostly catering to rich kids and has good teachers, but is doing really badly? That's crucial information that we need to manage, not just to report to the international agencies, but to actually improve. You can't improve unless you use data for management, and not just policy and planning. And lastly, more an advice for the corporates, private sector, the Microsofts of the world, the Googles of the world, whoever wants to help, but also the official agencies is how important it is to differentiate between countries within the developing world. There's no such thing as developing countries, and I'll give you an example of what I mean by that just now. So if you look at the internet usage in Finland, Chile, and low-income Africa, the blue bar is Finland, the orange bar is Chile, the gray bar is low-income Africa. And yet, when you look at World Bank, when you look even at UNESCO documents, Chile is dumped along, or put along with low-income Africa as a developing area. But Chile is already pretty close to where Finland is or will be within five years. Whereas in low-income Africa, we have really major problems with internet connectivity, the digital gap. So the digital gap within the developing countries is much bigger than the digital gap between the developing countries and the so-called developed ones. Not only that, but the digital gap within the African countries is bigger than the digital gap between Africa and the rest of the world. So we need very differentiated policies that take into account where countries really are at, just to echo what Shem and Margaret already said, but more importantly, take into account the inequities that are inside the countries. We tend to think, oh, it's the only inequity that matters is that between Africa and the rich countries? Not true. The inequities inside each African country are huge, maybe even bigger, in fact. And we need to pay much more attention to that, not only in our policies, but in our managerial information systems, but both in terms of the information that they produce, but also how information is gathered. So I'm sorry. I tried to rush through that, but I'm done now. Thank you. Thank you so much, Lise. Excellent, excellent points. And I really like how these presentations without, I don't know if you've been collaborating, but they seem to build on each other. And also, like your emphasis on the variability within countries and how schools in regions that you would expect to perform poorly, actually, some of them do excellently. I know UNICEF is also very interested in that angle of identifying positive deviants, as I think what they call them, under the Data Must Speak initiative. So these are really, really clear and very exciting points. In the interest of time, I'll just hand it over to our last presenter. Please, Pierre Chaplais from UNESCO. Go ahead. Thank you, Newton. Good morning. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to also speak today in this panel. I mean, we had very great and interesting presentations. And actually, I will try to be short because I feel that what I'm about to say was already said and addressed by the producers' speakers. Very briefly, I mean, I'd like to start, actually, by repeating what Louis just said, I mean, about somehow what I feel is an appropriate name of EMIS at this stage, with, I mean, most of the EMIS that we see that are most, I mean, oriented toward, I mean, planning rather than the management functions per se. And so there might be actually a need to rename EMIS so that we are all clear of what we speak about. But definitely, I mean, the COVID-19 crisis clearly highlighted that EMIS for planning is important. That's for sure. But EMIS for planning is not sufficient and there is really a need to consider EMIS, I mean, to support management functions of ministries and schools. Also, I mean, I will also repeat what was said before, but I feel that there is really a need to provide, I mean, practical and easy to use features to support the school operations instead of designing one-way tools. I mean, as we all know, I mean, many EMIS are designed to collect huge volumes of information from schools up to the central level to inform, I mean, planning and some management functions sometimes at the central or regional level. But oftentimes, I mean, those systems are not really serving the operational needs of schools to better operate. And this links to some other, I mean, topics that were also I like to say before, like the need somehow to somehow stop looking only at the monitoring inputs, but making sure that the EMIS is able to capture the outcomes of teaching operations in schools. This leads also to the fact that when probably EMIS needs to move to more real-time type of systems, not only providing snapshot, I mean, overviews of what is happening, but really able to provide, I mean, timely information for any decision. And actually on some, I think, critical data sets.  Also, I mean, possibly link to teacher and student allocation to schools. Those information needs to really be accurate to be, I mean, useful. And so we need to consider EMIS as a tool that is able to offer this real-time approach toward data analysis. I think also something that we need to consider when to scale up EMIS is to, and this is actually one of the challenges, I think, is to try to bridge the gap between the programmatic and planning, I mean, programmatic and managerial views of what the EMIS should do. And actually the views from the ICT or IT teams were implementing those oftentimes advanced solutions. And we can see in many, many country contexts that there is often a gap between, I mean, somehow the output system that is produced by ICT-oriented teams and the needs actually, the programmatic needs from the actual users of those systems. And I hope that some better synergies could be, I mean, established between those different groups so that, I mean, the tool are designed to reserve the purpose of the end users, not the, yeah, that's it. Also, and this was said before, I mean, in terms of financing, definitely, I mean, there is really a need for countries to secure recurrent funding and to really have, I mean, the budget allocations to sustain EMIS operations.   They need ongoing training and capacity development. And this definitely requires a significant amount of funding, which can, which needs to be, I mean, embedded into, I mean, the government budgets. Also, I would again repeat here, but I think that's the point that we need to insist on. I mean, EMIS as a tool cannot work in isolation. It must be part of, I mean, larger frameworks to sustain it. And oftentimes we find out that those tools are deployed in countries without, I mean, the proper legal frameworks and policies to sustain their deployment. So that's definitely something we need to look at. And to, to end up maybe one last point on collaboration around EMIS, for sure. I mean, we really hope that we could establish, I mean, really, I mean, the community of practice around the EMIS at the global level with some regional, I mean, groups. As you, I mean, some of you may know, we've been, I mean, UNESCO has been organizing an international seminar recently on the future of EMIS. And we hope that as a follow up to that, we will be able to contribute to the establishment of such a community of practices to help sustain and deploy those complex systems. I will stop here.  Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And again, very excellent points. And yes, I would also emphasize that process that I was, that it took place just a couple of weeks ago with UNESCO in having a three day webinar on the future of EMIS. I think all of those sessions are also available online if people want to see them. As will this session be, this will be actually two videos, I think available, shared and available. And as you've seen in the chat, everyone, there, we will follow up on this with a community of practice. I think Martin needs to cut me off. Is that right? Oh, no, just, yes, there will be two videos, please. Thanks, thank you. Right. Yeah, I mean, it seems like at least the panelists would have a little bit more time to stay on if there are questions from the audience. Please indicate by showing a reaction or paste it in the chat. I don't know, Sofia, if you've been monitoring the community of practice, I don't know if anyone has entered any. But I can, at least I've seen a lot of activities in the chat. And I really think that is a very cool indicator for this to move over to the CUP. We have our own community of practice supported by a software, which is not like your global at UNESCO level, but within the DHS2 community, where we really think that being able to share experiences from country to country of country implementation with DHS2 for education, we really encourage people to move over to the CUP. I can see also that people have actually get answers to the questions in the chat. So if there are no hands and discussions for the panel, I think maybe we, if no one wants to say anything, it is sort of time up and we can be interrupted. Yeah, unless some of the panelists want to comment on the other interventions, we could have a quick round of just maybe just start again from Shem and Margaret. And then just to see if you have further comments. Thank you very much. I think the one thing in which I think I was commented on is the way the presentations have been harmonized. I mean, I think we have been in this field for quite some time and we kind of interacted with each other. But I think that the key point for me is this issue of focusing at the lowest level. And this is not only the school but the learner level. And we have some good examples really, if you think around South Africa started this long time ago with their loaded system. And I think this is the way to go. Gambia is also on it now. I think if we do that, then the producers of data will see the reason why they're producing this data. I think this is really key for me. Thank you. I'd like to add to that, Newt, if I may, two seconds. I think that's the link between making the data useful and getting the system's better funding. So Margaret and Shem, I think, and maybe Pierre called for regularizing and improving the funding of image. And it's not just the funding. It's also the ability to use human resources. People who know about data are hard to find in developing countries and they get recruited by the NGOs or the private sector. So maybe they will need the support to hire the right. But here's the issue. And that is sometimes it's hard to get the support from the high levels in the ministry if we have not yet proven how useful data are. So I think there is some responsibility on us and the image community to prove to management and to the policy leaders that the data that we are producing are actually useful, not just for planning and policy, but for delivering improvement. And that ties to the issue that Shem just raised and Pierre raised that the only way you can do that ultimately is by empowering people at the school level and at the district level, not just by that old thing that you say of sending the data back down, but sending actionable data and showing how you, showing, literally showing how you can use the data to drive improvements and to produce insights from the data. As I noted in my slide, systems already produce more data than they use. So if systems are already producing more data than they use, the ministers will say, well, why do we need to fund you better because you're actually producing more data than actually get used. So we need to drive lessons around how you make the data really useful so that the leaders of the sector can say, ah, this stuff is useful. This again leading me over to the panel tomorrow where we actually are discussing designing for data use. And that's really the focus of the plenary tomorrow where we actually look at how can you innovate and also incentivize and also make better quality of the analytics, but of course being used at the appropriate level on all the levels all the way down. But I also think that some of the stories that we have heard earlier today also show great usage of the data. And I think that's very, very promising that it has happened quite a lot in a very difficult time in this pandemic. Still, it has happened quite a lot since we met last time as a global community. Sorry, this is Margaret. I was just going to add exactly the same thing, Kristin is I think all four of us pointed to the importance of data for management, but actually the super encouraging thing is almost all of the country's stories that we heard in the previous session had excellent examples of this. And to the point of a community of practice, the more we can use those stories as illustrations to peers and demonstrate really how effective this is in both speaking upwards to ministers and those within the central ministry. So they understand that it's important, but also downwards. So that the folks who teach us and learners who are actually in schools understand how powerful data can be. The more I think we'll kind of develop that virtuous cycle that I think a number of us have references to. So also just to reinforce, I found so many of the stories earlier today were really encouraging and moving in exactly the direction that I think we'd like to see. Super. Any other that would like to have a last comment? Before we end, but we are not ending because we try to move you over to the COP so we can continue. And there you find the slides, there you find the videos that you can promote to others. And there you can also be in dialogue with the presenters and we will try to make things happen there. And I really want to tell towards the end here that when the pandemic hit our globe, our whole globe, we actually were about to travel to the Gambia to have the first ever DSSU for education academy. It was postponed and that was in March 2020. And we believe and we hope that we will invite all of you to Gambia to have a new academy five days where you can share stories, encourage each other and be inspired and learn of new innovations and practices and data use in the Gambia in the fall. Depending on how the pandemic unfolds when it will be. But we are thinking of October or something. So we will announce it in the COP. So please register, please check it out. And if you have more people, don't you think we can end here Knut? Yes, yes, I was about to say that. I will just again thank the panelists so much for really, really interesting interventions. And of course, all the earlier presenters as well. So thank you all very, very much. And we look forward as Susan said, this is not the end. This is hopefully just something that will be continued and speed it up now that the pandemic hopefully is not that threatening anymore.


Let us now turn to our distinguished panel. We've got a great lineup for you here We're going to start. Let me introduce the the panel first and then we'll start with a Deputy Assistant Secretary Vikram Singh who I'll introduce first for those of you who don't know Vikram He is the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for South and Southeast Asia in the office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense Vikram is a very capable relatively young leader There's a little gray in that beard, but Not much. He's actually done an incredible amount of work in the region in a in a in his career Prior to this position. He was Senior Advisor to the Undersecretary of Defense for policy on Asian and Pacific Security Deputy Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan at the Department of State and Senior Advisor on Afghanistan and Pakistan at the Department of Defense What his bio doesn't say is he's one of the few who had the honor to work Right next to and and with Ambassador Holbrook Richard Holbrook and a lot of his toughness and his views were formed during those days Before that he was at the Center for National for a new American security And did some very interesting things across South Asia with the Board Foundation and Voice of America Next to him is his Excellency Hayono Eastman who's the Vice Chair of Commission 1 and for those of you that don't follow the DPR or the DPR in Indonesia, this is a very important Commission. It's the Commission in charge of defense foreign affairs and information And intelligence it doesn't say that here. I don't know why In the People's Representative Council Pak Hayono is a member of the of the of the Parliament of Indonesia's House of Representatives and He was elected to his post in 2009 as a member of the Democrat Party as a senior politician He served as Minister of Youth and Sports from 1993 to 1998 and was a member of Parliament in 1987 to 1992 and from 92 to 93 under the gold car party and Finally last and certainly not least the Honorable Paul Wolfowitz who was former ambassador to Indonesia and is a leading scholar on many issues Security-related and foreign policy issues at the American Enterprise Institute I think Secretary Wolfowitz is well known to all of you He was President of the World Bank a Deputy Secretary of Defense and as he mentioned earlier in this conference Did you say 30 years ago? Assistant Assistant Secretary of State for East Asia and the Pacific But to his credit I I walk the halls of the AP front office all the time and that picture of you 30 years ago It doesn't look a lot different than Then you look now So we've got a great line up here and I suspect we'll have a terrific discussion afterwards Let me turn to Vikram to TS off Vikram Thank you. Thank you so much Ernie. Thank you for Pulling this together to everyone who helped pull this together. It's true honor to be sitting here with Secretary Wolfowitz. I'm sorry. I'm gonna call you Secretary Wolfowitz, although you are Ambassador Wolfowitz in this context But that's how I most know you from my time in the Pentagon And you've had such a distinguished group today and His Excellency Ayano, it's nice to be here with you as well. You look day-to-day into the issues We're talking about here and security for Indonesia I'm gonna try to be very very brief because I think the real value is I didn't get into the Q&A of these of these discussions So, you know very quickly. I just think Many people have commented on the fact that this is sort of un unparalleled The room was not only packed to capacity this morning with several hundred people But it's back to capacity this afternoon and if you can hold on to a crowd in the afternoon Something really big is going on The the The fact is, you know the the big news on the defense side for the United States and Indonesia is that we have a very normal positive constructive defense relationship We wouldn't have been saying that just a few years ago in fact in 2005 We didn't really have a defense relationship at all That's when we reestablished and started to normalize military ties. So from no bilateral activities today We have something like 200 bilateral activities every year It's really a phenomenal change This has happened in the spirit of a comprehensive partnership something that has been Developed across the board by all elements of our of our two countries by our state department and Ministry of Foreign Affairs Defense and and it's it's something that has been building trust and habits of cooperation and it's it's an effort That's been making really Tremendous progress. We've we've heard today a lot about Indonesia's role as a regional leader and in every aspect of what we're doing. I think what underpins the US thinking is Being a partner with Indonesia and helping it in that regional Leadership supporting Indonesia as a as sort of a unique leader in the region. I noted when Foreign minister this morning pointed out the challenges as Trust deficit lingering territorial disputes and sovereignty and sovereignty issues and managing change But you can actually look at each of those and see where Indonesia has stepped up when those problems become significant issues Trust issues. He talked a lot about North Korea, but I think the difficulties Last year and coming to agreement on a on a on a statement on the South China Sea you saw Indonesia step in and try to bring people back together and being countries back together and come up with the six principles when When you see territorial disputes being persistent Indonesia is always offering creative ways forward creative solutions ideas energizing the discussion and When you look at the areas that I focus on like our support for Indonesia's military modernization and looking at how we deal with common security challenges Indonesia is also taking a very forward-looking approach focusing on things that really matter in this particular area maritime domain awareness You know building capabilities for counterterrorism and counter proliferation things in those in those areas We are focusing with Indonesia and maritime security Humanitarian assistance and disaster relief and peacekeeping. Those are the areas in which we probably have the most active cooperation That happens bilaterally and increasingly that happens multilaterally. We heard several people today talking about the creation of the ADMM plus the ASEAN Defense Minister's meeting, which will have a ministerial this August that Construct has moved with really astounding speed to really very concrete operational cooperation amongst the ASEAN member countries and the eight plus countries We with Indonesia co-chair the counterterrorism Working group of that of that body and we'll be holding counterterrorism exercise later this year involving all the countries and Brunei will be hosting a Humanitarian assistance disaster response and military medicine exercise later this year, which will also bring Basically all of the countries together many of them actually providing significant assets ships helicopters, etc And working together for the first time the the and across the board Indonesia has shown leadership in In this regard and really it's it's hosting of ASEAN its ASEAN chairmanship was a watershed year Another area that is that is that is really new in this partnership has been defense trade you know the The Indonesian military has a lot of work to do in terms of modernization and we talk about How they're going to structure what their priorities are going to be and we're looking at how US industry can be a partner in That my my deputy general Malavet was actually just out with with secretary Booniman in Arizona the other day and looking at you know going to look at various us systems and And things of that nature. So this area is completely a new A a new area of cooperation, and it's actually fundamentally tied to our strategic aims because we know that as India Indonesia Modernizes military it will contribute to common regional aims of stability security and shared prosperity You know I think I'll just wrap up by saying that the the the other part of this growing relationship has been watching the professionalization and transformation of the Indonesian military and the The the talk about I met and other things from secretary Booniman. I think was really important. We have a we have a very profoundly Important opportunity and role in helping militaries figure out how they can be the best that they can be And and be the best they can be in their societies And so we're very committed to continue in expanding that cooperation in the realm of Training education and professionalization for the Indonesian Armed Forces. I'm gonna wrap it up there I said five minutes. That was probably five minutes, and there's a lot we can talk about the question and answer Thank you. Thank you very much about exactly five minutes Pacayano How do things look from your perch in the day pay out? Thank you, mr. Bauer personally I would like to Appreciate what you're doing in this important conference by CSIS it is important because We are Meeting between friends all friends We may have differences and we will continue to have differences in the future but through friendship we will try to talk to each other to solve our differences and This forum is important in Indonesia since Indonesia has become a democracy nation By seeing part of giving way to democracy and also the military and This is the contribution that not many people know that without their willingness to give up political activities in the past the Indonesian military We will have difficult times in succeeding democracy in Indonesia therefore for commission one it is the military the military is unique and special and We hope that the Indonesian military Not just simply doing their job as a defense of Her country but also to ensure that democracy is to stay in Indonesia therefore, it is imperative for a nation not just to support the military to modernize its Equipment but also to ensure that the personnel welfare is Taking care properly. I saw the film Start by Tom Hanks returning George That is a very interesting film how you Appreciate your soldier. Although you may not agree with the Iraq wars, but when every soldier is coming home in a casket Everybody giving their respect To the soldiers. I think this is something should happen in Indonesia Because soldiers their professions are Resing their lives for country Beside fire fighters. I think Soldiers doing just that That is why we have to respect our soldiers our military and Has been mentioned by the secretary general or the Pornomoyos Gantoro our minister the increase has been incredible in the budget and We do this simply because the economy is doing also well and we appreciate the assistance of American administration on having the opportunity To participate in the EDA excessive Defense article remember with the Yeah, we we go in hand-in-hand in in tandem with ambassador Dino meeting with Congressman meeting with the defense Your defense department and your secretary department on the F-16s and We hope that this also can happen on the Apache helicopters Which will be stationed in the Natoa the in the north of Indonesia and As a meal more function as a deterrent Factor If you notice that Singapore small nations She has a hundred leopard tanks Indonesia only have 30 a.m. X tanks, which is 30 40 years old so this is a that's why we support the Indonesian military and Yes at this Forum I like also to appreciate the forum It has bring out it has bring out the best of our young leaders minister Marty ambassador Dino and businessman John Riadi usual to To the gathering that Indonesia has capable leadership That is why They can solve problems The challenge for Indonesia is how? to ensure that Every election create not just a leader Who understands and preserve democracy But to ensure the Indonesian society Indonesian people stays with democracy democracy with its own identity and It's different from your democracy your democracy under the context of freedom of expression allows critical Statement on religious matters in Indonesia although we are a democratic nation We will not we will not allow we cannot allow blasphemy. It's just a different identity That is why this meeting is very important, especially for parliaments We have constituents in Indonesia They're not of Indonesians understand correctly America to me personally The United States Maybe you made some mistakes But you don't Conquer other nations you try to solve problem by military use, but you never Conquer other nations This is something that is not known by Mostly Indonesian public. They see America as a big superpower Trying to play boss everywhere all over the world but We if you see deeply on how you try to To promote democracy is not about conquering other nations. It's about democracy and Understanding democracy. It's the only way to solve problem peacefully Within a country or within between countries all over the world That's the aim therefore in Commission one although We are on the dove side Of of a matter But we would like to see the Indonesian military especially a dove Which is suffered sufficiently armed a dove without armament is naive Ready to be cooked Therefore military is important for Indonesia and we learn from the US how you Maintain your military in the proper way Yeah, we have mistakes. We have personnel Doing make a wrong doing and Hopefully in the near future that there will be a military court for that Since in our budget in our law it only can be deal on military court. I Agree in the future when it's In in in connection with the public it show go it should goes to a civilian court Just to make sure that the military Stays on its path, but at the present time the law Stipulate that any wrongdoing by the military Including connecting with the public should be done through a military court And this is going to happen to a certain copasus member Which happens in solo Several weeks ago and this is a Something that is shameful to Indonesia and to the unit of copasus I think they learn they will learn from this and therefore it is Important for Indonesian military to be trained through IMAT program Because not just train of military personnel, but how to understand democracy I noticed in the US military also that happens although you have the best System, but you still have soldiers doing Something wrong and you deal with that in the proper and And Speedy way so these things do not create bad news for the society especially for democracy itself So I stopped there. Thank you. Thank you, Pa It's always good to get spontaneous applause after your It's a good sign. Let me turn to Secretary Wilfords, please Paul is just fine I'm gonna instead of giving you a Structured analysis, let me tell some anecdotes each of them with a point But I won't try to make the point you can figure out and let me start at the risk of waking up Those of you who are asleep or embarrassing those of you who are roughly my age Because this is sort of a hidden way of asking you how old you are raise your hands if you have any idea who Alan Lawrence Pope was Or still is I think he's still alive Okay, well we have an educated audience, but still I think that's under 10% Alan Lawrence Pope was one of the CIA's great triumphs of the 1950s When the promester rebellion started they somehow decided I'm not sure on whose authority Certainly unknown. I think to the embassy in Jakarta that the US should support the promester rebellion They put together this weird little air force in eastern Indonesia Pope was a Decorated Korean War veteran excellent pilot or fairly good pilot. I guess he conducted a number of bombing runs on the strategically critical island of Morotai He bombed a marketplace in Ambon and after about three weeks of these rather feckless military exercises He was shot down George Benson who many of us I think no again I'm not asking your age, but George Benson who was in the army at a shea in Jakarta was hauled in by General Nassuthian Who said what in God's name are you Americans doing here? We the Indonesian military are trying to provide some restraint against the growth of communism in this country and all you're doing Or all the CIA is doing is tearing the country apart if that isn't a sufficient explanation for a Certain Indonesian allergy to foreign troops on their territory you could go back to the war of independence But I just think that little data point about The American presence so to speak is is worth remembering not maybe remembering too much It'd be better if everyone forgot it, but still not everyone has forgotten it Second anecdote when I was ambassador General Mordani was fond of telling the press that there is no Soviet threat Remember this was still the height of the Cold War more or less, although we had no idea was gonna end quite so soon And I said what on earth are you doing that for and he said well there there there is no Soviet threat as long as You Americans are around. I said well, that's quite a qualification. I said you could at least say that He said well if I acknowledge there was a Soviet threat my boys as he likes to call pretty much every other general In the army my boys would bankrupt this country trying to deal with something that we can't deal with in the meantime We are dealing with our real problems, which are internal security I don't think things have changed all that dramatically in the subsequent 25 years And I think it's very important especially Forgive me those are my friends in the defense industry if we go hawking advanced aircraft or other things to Indonesia It may not be what they really need although I agree with Pahayuna that they certainly need more modern equipment, but they need it economically Third comment is about I meant One of the most many remarkable things that happened in the years 1998 1999 was the sudden abrupt and complete Abolition of the Ministry of Information and the lifting of all censorship regulations now. I know Some of my Indonesian friends would say yes, it's gone much too far already But I don't think any of us in this room would say it was such a bad thing to do It was done by a general I was gonna say retired He may still have been active duty and when asked why he had done and he said well At command and staff college at Fort Leavenworth. We were allowed to take an elective and I took mine on Public opinion and democracy and they taught us about the value of freedom of the press By the way, the more you learn about this general the more you realize this was not his normal mode of behavior But he had picked up something very valuable through the IMET program more importantly perhaps the Current president serving a second term in Indonesia is in the honor roll as our other former presidents of the command and Staff College at Leavenworth, and I believe he went through IMET in an earlier incarnation as well and I don't think it's an accident that President SBY has an appreciation of democratic institutions Even while recognizing as you have said that democracy in Indonesia will be different than democracy in the United States But many of the same principles apply and there's nothing like having been through an American system to at least Understand our principles which may or may not apply everywhere else My fourth anecdote concerns what happened in The in December of 2004 January of 2005 after the tsunami hit Ache and We the United States military came with Capabilities that no other country in the world could have provided And we were able to bring food and water to people who were literally on the verge of starving to death or dying of thirst Because the devastation was unbelievable. I Flew over it a few weeks after the tsunami and it really looked to me like Hiroshima or the pictures of Hiroshima In the very early stages vice president use of Kala, and I'm not naming him in order to cast blame But he initially said we don't need any foreign military and I mentioned Pope because I think that's probably part of what he had in mind But it is really quite striking that within Probably just a few hours of his making that statement. He had stopped making that statement and no one else was saying it the American military stepped in in a purely humanitarian way doing something as I say that no other country in the world could have done and Saving probably tens of thousands of lives and from a very if you are one of these So-called realists who I don't think are all that realistic who want to just dismiss this as well. That's nice It's humanitarian then think about the fact that the according the Pew polls and I I'm going to butcher this or not butcher this. I'm going to give you round numbers roughly 75% of Indonesians had a negative view of the United States before the tsunami and Roughly 75% had a positive view of the United States after the tsunami And I'm sure that's gone down a little bit with drone strikes in Afghanistan and maybe even the pivot to Asia I don't know but it's still up pretty high and it is very important It's an asset the United States has in many places But particularly I would say in countries like Indonesia that really want to be our friends And look for good reasons to be that way Getting a little more contemporary I believe it was just a few months ago that Some I guess you could say literally homemade terrorist Attacked a police station Tassik Malaya. He started out throwing a pipe bomb shades of pressure cookers You've heard of pressure cookers and if you haven't your neighbor can explain it That didn't go off unlike the one at the Boston Marathon. So he tried using a homemade gun I don't know how you make a homemade gun, but that didn't go off either and when the police tackled him He resorted to a knife, but he was killed subsequently eight People suspected of being behind this attack were killed very quickly by Indonesian counterterrorism forces and 17 were arrested The New York Times described all of this and this is a quote Recent police operations planned bombings and attacks highlight Indonesia's continuing terrorism problem It seems to me you could have written that same sentence and substitute United States for Indonesia To say that Indonesia has a continuing terrorism problem makes it sound as though Indonesia's a dangerous place and what impresses me actually is what an extremely successful job they have done and In a way what impresses me even more and I will tell this story and somebody quietly tell me afterwards if I have my facts Wrong, but I was told that after the 2009 bombings of two hotels in Jakarta Which were aimed at Americans although I think Indonesians increasingly understand that Terrorism aimed at anyone in Indonesia is an attack on the country The people behind these suicide bombers were captured or excuse me they were Trapped and killed rather quickly and I was told this is the fact I would like to confirm or refute that there wasn't a single Muslim cemetery in Indonesia that was willing to bury these SOB's That tells you something really quite impressive not only about the effectiveness of Indonesia's professional counterterrorism forces who are getting a lot of good quiet cooperation from both the United States and Australia I think And it's a real success story, but it also tells you something about I think a very positive Public attitude in Indonesia toward terrorism by the way, there was also some remarkable cooperation between The FBI and Indonesian security forces in the investigation of that incident about eight years ago Where several American teachers were killed on the way to the Freeport mine in Westerion and Patty Spear was the widow of one of the people killed was converted from being a critic of Indonesia to being a One woman Advertisement for Indonesian police work after she had seen what they had done and for the FBI I Can't finish though without Mentioning my view quite negative note, and I think it's potentially quite serious and that is well the Attitude toward terrorism has been As good as anyone could have hoped for and the professional effectiveness against terrorism as good as anyone could have hoped for The same cannot be said about the attitude toward religious extremism or the approach of the government toward really shocking attacks on not only churches, but even on or maybe especially on Minority Muslim Ahmadiyya mosques that are considered by the people destroying them and murdering and murdering in a most vicious way People who are adherents of those sects It's largely I think organized by the front pambale Islam Islamic defenders front and They are admittedly just a sliver of Indonesia's 200 plus million people But the government is confronting it I Would say with about the same attitude as southern states confronted the Ku Klux Klan in the 1950s there is a virtual impunity for these murderers and For those of us who and I certainly In case you don't know it. I Have to say Indonesia is my second favorite country. I did what no ambassador supposed to do I almost fell in love, but I waited until after I hit left But this is not the Indonesia that I came to admire and it's not the Indonesia I hope of the future, but it is really important to confront Thugs like that early on rather than wait until they become so strong and so menacing that it becomes very dangerous to do so so I Don't want to get into an argument at blasphemy laws. I'm a skeptic about them But certainly if you're going to talk about blasphemy laws, then you better talk about people who are violating some of the most fundamental principles of Indonesian democracy Let me just conclude on on two notes first of all I really appreciate what Pahayono said about Most Indonesians don't understand The historical restraint with which the US has used its military force. I know it's not quite the right word I'm have to search for the right word, but we don't go around conquering countries and even In the case of Iraq, which we are accused of seizing for its oil whatever mistakes we made we clearly weren't there to take over the country There's an important fact which I would urge anyone in this audience to think about when you're talking in Indonesian audiences and I guess I would ask you in particular And frankly I would criticize my own government under both this administration and the previous one and I could go back even further For how little we mentioned the fact that by my count one, two, three, four, five, six, seven times in the last 22 years Not counting Iraq and Afghanistan Which would make it nine times The United States military has acted sometimes at great risk to American lives sometimes in a purely humanitarian fashion To rescue populations that were predominantly overwhelmingly Muslim if you doubt my list I start with Kuwait 1991 northern Iraq 1991 Somalia 1992 which was humanitarian although Americans were and eventually killed Bosnia 1995 Kosovo 1999 Ache and the tsunami 2004 and five and Libya most recently I Would also contend but I'm not trying to start a big argument here that what we tried to do and we can debate how Successfully in both Iraq and Afghanistan was to liberate a population not to conquer it and whatever problems they have today They had horrible problems under the previous regimes and there that's another 50 million Muslims But the notion that the US is at war with Muslims because some of our enemies happen to be Muslim and we happen to attack them not only Are we not? But the American record in the last 12 years with regard to our own Muslim citizens is By historical standards exemplary that doesn't mean there aren't as it's in your other cases Incidents where Muslims have been mistreated in this country But they're astonishingly small and if you compare them to the shocking treatment of Japanese here in World War two By such great civil libertarians as Hugo black or a warren and the president United States himself Franklin Roosevelt We have come a long way We have a lot that other people should understand Not saying that we should boast about it But I think it would be helpful in our relations with Indonesia To develop a better understanding of what we've done right as well as what we've done wrong And I think the same thing goes for you I Have one concluding comment and that is no one yet I'm about to violate the rule has at least in our panel has mentioned the infamous word do we funk see and I think that is Testimony to what you have correctly said has been a remarkable role played by the Indonesian military in this democratic transformation including at least going back as far as the historic events of 1998 when as I read what happened the military essentially turned to Suharto and said there are a million students ready to march on the Presidential Palace and we're not going to shoot them for you Made me think that perhaps the Egyptian military was off to a similar start Unfortunately, Egypt and the Egyptian military have not lived up to the impressive record of Indonesia's maybe you can help them out They need help Thank you. Thank you very much Park hyena. Did you want to respond to any of that before we go into the questions? Okay, well, I want to thank the panel for what I thought were very interesting and provocative remarks I'd like to ask you this is a theme that has come up throughout the conference today and It's the question of trust and I wonder I wonder quite frankly whether we've whether the panel thinks that we have established a foundation of adequate trust to be able to move forward with our security Relationship and if you if you do think so I'd like you to say just briefly Why how do you know and if you don't think so? What can or should we do to get there? please the I Would say that we are Strictly in this in the security realm. We are building a foundation of trust. I I think and Secretary Wilhelm it's brought anecdotes out that can take us back through the generations on what? Underlies sort of the psychology behind the the the relationship the bilateral relationship. I think that such complex histories Running from those days all the way through the days when we were you know Where we felt compelled to cut off assistance and support in reaction to Events in Indonesia and East Timor and these other issues and then as we acknowledged transformation and change in Indonesia and and responded in kind with re-engagement. I think be it'd be too It'd be too much to say that all of that history has just been tidily wrapped up in the past few years and I think that those Memories and run deep and I think when it comes down to fundamental issues Indonesia not unlike other countries We'll have a doubt about whether the United States would stick by them in a in a pinch because there are examples through the years of one we've you know taken a pretty hard line and cut folks off because of Choices that have been made in those countries So I think the I think what is happening is that regular interaction habits of cooperation the fact that we now engage strategically on issues of Security regional geopolitical issues we can actually have You know very genuine conversations about what's happening in the region and the world and our bilateral dialogue is very rich now that coupled with Actively doing things together being reliable in our the commitments we make I think that is is is building a fundamental level of trust that will let us get there There's also there's also a degree of frankness and honesty. So where we have concerns for example the recent Copacas incident that Pacayano was mentioning We are able to simply you know talk about those concerns what the impact will be if we see things go a certain one direction Or another direction we can we are we're you know, so there's a there's a lot less Lot less melodrama in the relationship than there might have been in the past And that's part of this foundation of trust that I really think is building and is on a very good trajectory That is why I agree on the Statement this afternoon that I heard that Indonesia and the US should stay on the course as the best of friends Not as an ally This will This will as matter of fact this will enhance the friendship between the two nations I give you an example when you send 600 marines to Australia That sends a jittery message to the elite public of Indonesia The rumors of the issue is that the US is protecting Freeport in Papua And furthermore they will helping Disparatis Papua Things like that. So this is circling around the elite of Indonesian public Therefore the relationship should stay this way as the best of friends Whatever differences that we might have as long as it is not in the principle of democracy Democracy I agree. It's a universal thing and it's good for Indonesia We are blessed to have this democracy and We prove that this democracy do not break up Indonesia we still the same We have problem with certain province such as Papua, but we understand that The majority of the US people and especially the US government is in support that Papua is the integral part of Indonesia and Therefore whatever the view on Papua, especially the Penderapat Penderapat Rakyat The referendum on Papua in 1969 When one do not agree on that it doesn't matter because we abide to the international law that The Dutch has colonized Papua when they leave it becomes a part of Indonesia. So this is different than Timor-Leste Timor-Leste was colonized by Portugal then yes, there is a question mark there, but not Papua therefore This is something that I'm telling the my colleagues in the Commission one not to be Worried about Benny Wenda movement in in in London or in Oxford and Yeah, this kind of thing. I hope that the two nations understand that Democracy has nothing to do with the integrity of a nation Democracy and as matter of fact should help should assist the unity of nation because the unity of a nation is also nurturing democracy. It's also protecting the people and enhancing their welfare as a nation and Yes, I just mentioned to Mr. Wawa which I Understood he was a dove before and lately we We see him as a Hockish, but he mentioned to me. I'm still the same person. So Anyhow, thanks I have to give an explanation Well, I felt Saddam Hussein was different even from Suharto or Marcos, but we could go into that another time But I think one has to as I think foreign minister expressed it eloquently this morning Have some general principles, but also think about specific cases and I thought he was right about that I Let me refer to that speech first of all, I mean I think that a Certain distance between the US and Indonesia is both inevitable and desirable and It's not Pure I mean that admittedly there's a little bit of lip service in the talk about non-alignment given that non-alignment Actually often means alignment in the wrong direction But Indonesia has a long tradition of non-alignment and the US actually though you may not know it has a pretty long history Of looking the other way when I was ambassador. I don't know if it's changed at all But I would regularly get complaints from outside groups and occasionally from people in the US government about Indonesia's quote Terrible voting record at the UN and it was pretty terrible it lined Indonesia up with some of the worst countries in the world And my attitude was who really cares? It's a throwaway if the Indonesians want to vote that way. That's fine. It doesn't hurt us More substantively if I take for example What the foreign minister said this morning? There's room to disagree. I don't think that what we suffer from with North Korea is a deficit of trust. I think we suffer from a country that is a bit screwed up to put it understated and One might almost say that our efforts to Make them feel better to negotiate to Reward them for minor concessions like coming back and talking with us have actually encouraged bad behavior rather than discouraged it So it isn't in general. I think it's important to keep channels of communication open But sometimes for example when our ambassador to Baghdad in 1990 told Saddam that we didn't take any Position on the border dispute between Iraq and Kuwait. That was not helpful communication So it's not always a good thing, but it's not bad at all To have a country of Indonesia's stature with whom we have a long-standing relationship It pushes that line maybe a little too hard But we need to hear it because maybe we push the other line a little too hard So I think a little tension in the relationship Especially given that we manage it as well as I think we do is actually kind of a good thing. I Mean I Said how positive I feel about I meant a few minutes ago, but I meant is also a Potential target of people who want to make trouble in the relationship. Maybe that's a little unfair people have grievances against Indonesia look for a target in American legislation and Historically at least I meant was one of the most available ones It seems to me we're past that at least for the time being but I wouldn't not encourage people to think it's it's purely history. I In I would say by the way In support of what Pahayonah said not only is democracy not led to the breakup of Indonesia I would argue that without a democratic government prepared to negotiate unreasonable terms of the people of Aceh She might have broken off and I think it's important not to be too complacent about Papua's status in Indonesia based on a 1969 referendum or based on the history of the Dutch colonies People are going to be looking for ways to make it an international issue for ways to make it a Christian versus Muslim issue and I think It is important for Indonesia's integrity for our relations and For the people of Papua to focus on how to be in a position to make a very good argument I think a very good argument can be made That the Papuans are much better off in Indonesia than in Papua New Guinea right next door It's a difficult problem, but I think It has the and it has the potential to become a more difficult one if it's not handled properly. So I would really In a position to say what that means, but I really think it's important not to be complacent I Think I will leave it there. Okay. Let me open the floor to Two questions, please and again the same rules. Just please identify yourself and your organization Wayne by Remembering a former a pilot before Pope Bobby I forget his name the first pilot Bobby Friedberg the first pilot that flew in the Indonesian Air Force died for the Indonesian Republic's formation 1947 I think 48 I met his One of his ancestors in 1999 or 2000 I can't remember after Suharto fell. I got a call from the Indonesian Embassy The head of the Indonesian Police College is coming to New York. Can you help him out? So I you know, that's not what I normally do I work for a Chamber of Commerce, but I called John Jay College of Criminal Justice. They're in the phone book I said there's an Indonesian police Rector that's coming and just wants to make contact. I called the New York City Police Academy We met with them. They took two cadets a year on scholarship. We worked that out We went in to see the John Jay criminal justice people This is now the police or separated from the military now. This is what he said and The provo of John Jay had worked in the Philippines on the demilitarization of the Indonesian police and he looked at the Rector from Indonesia and he said what kind of police do you want to be? You want to be the type of police that? you know Puts people in jail and keeps order or do you want to be the type of police that helps a citizen? Rescue a cat that went up the tree You know, he sort of set up this dichotomy of what what what type of? Security force you're going to be so my question really is what's going on today with the separation of the police from the military and Are they moving in this kind of? civilian Isation process the demilitarization process. How is that going? It's the parliament happy about that and you know, what are the observations you have? Thank you, man Let me take we'll load up a couple questions here in the back Good afternoon, excellent system. My name is Herup Ramayudam from a size to softens in university I have a questions regarding the military intervention in politics to what extent is the The current and new development of a cooperation a military cooperation between the United States and Indonesia putting us concern over the possibility of intervention of military and politics in the future of Indonesia and provided the anecdotal The the very first historical recent primary call for correctly general Nasutian who put in place that do you fancy concept is educated militarily in the United States and With the military Tend to intervene in politics by being the most organized and the most functioning effectively functioning institutions, how does this becoming a threat to Indonesia democracy in the future if The military advance so rapidly that the bureaucratic cannot catch up with it and They decided to break the lock jambay intervening once again. Is this something that the US within the concept of cooperation? Ever considered Thank you very much. Thank you. We'll take a question here in the front Front table here Ted Fishman Would you mind commenting or at least giving an overview of what Indonesia needs to do with its Navy? Particularly in light of Chinese designs on resource security that reach into Southeast Asia Okay, let's go with those three. We have a question about police military relationship possibility of military intervention and politics and how do we think about it and What role for the Indonesian Navy? Yes to tell you truthfully One of the problems the main problems of our democracy in Indonesia is the Well-being between the military and the police You mentioned correctly that the police in the past it's part of the military, but now As a concerns of democracy They are being separated And this is especially clear The the problem arises when the police through then sus 88 Is the main? Apparatus to deal with terrorism they were given Not just budget, but the authority which sometimes Create Jealousy exactly Jealousy from the military Because in the past the police is the little brother of the army but now the police has become the main apparatus to deal with terrorist and This in a way create problems because the police the dentist at the eight cannot share confidential Secret information even To the army, this is the process that is happening in Indonesia and hopefully In line with Increasing the proselytism of Indonesian military This can pay the way this problem can pay the way. That is why Commission 1 is in support to Indonesian modernizing its military and As a balance what is Happening in the in the pack that the military is not the number one apparatus to deal with but we But be clear when dealing with sporadis then Commission 1 would think that is the job of the military not the police sporadis with with arms When sporadis without arms, then it's the police But with arms it should be The military just like the states I think when you deal with other you don't have sporadis in the states We have so Is Puerto Rico is part of the states what's that Puerto Rico? It's this territory. Yeah, okay, so this is something that Yes, I don't think that you will stay quiet when Texas is being claimed by your neighbor So in answering that the possibility of the military intervening in Indonesian politics no way since the since the amendment of our Constitution Your constitution to there is no way that the military can intervention into politics and The military respect the new constitutions and therefore once again We must ensure Not to be complacent that in every election that the public appreciate democracy the problem with the media I have to say this The media tend to make the culprit Into the institutions like DPR The media can bang on every single Angkota DPR in every DPR member Will I always said to my friends media you can say whatever you You will as hard as you can on every individual who make a wrongdoing in the parliament, but not in the institutions Because you if you keep it on on banging on the institutions then it will bang also on democracy the people will see democracy has no value has no Benefits for the people and this is dangerous at the moment we enjoy high economic We still fine, but what happened if our economy is in is in the downturn Can we still preserve democracy? That is a big question that we have to to meet and then the third the Navy Indonesia is a Archipelagic nation As a matter of fact, we have to have a strong Navy and a strong Air Force In the past the army is number one but in the future it has to be Equal maybe more on Navy and the Air Force since we are jQuery such a large nations comprises of 17,500 islands and We have to protect our borders and we have to make a clear message to everyone that please respect our borders Because within ASEAN we still have water problem within ASEAN nations We solved the problem with Vietnam for 31 years negotiation But with Malaysia up till now They still claim Ambalad and that is No way we're gonna give up Ambalad. We have given up to respect the The international court Sipadhandigitan has gone to Malaysia, but come on not again Ambalad. This is something we hope that within ASEAN We should have this understanding not to hurt each other, but once again ASEAN Is a blessed to Indonesia Hopefully ASEAN can be a good example on how we deal crisis within nations for other part of the of the world and Although we might not hope to see ASEAN becomes EU The EU is a different matter. I don't I don't think only ASEAN should be EU ASEAN should be To be in present because Indonesia Yes, sometimes it works me when you mentioned Indonesia is a regional leader. ASEAN leader. We are not ASEAN leader We don't wish to be said that way because ASEAN is created To solve the problems in the 1960s We learn from our mistakes on on Confrontasi with Malaysia and Singapore We wish not that to happen again therefore ASEAN is something that we need to take care and that is why the Navy is very important to ensure that our border will stay intact and And that is forever. Thank you Vikram or Paul do you want to say anything? Very briefly. I'll echo Marty from this morning. Not the regional leader, but a regional leader And I think everyone would agree that Indonesia is a regional leader and very important one on the police I think it's we're seeing a gradual process by which the military focuses on external threats and things of that nature with the separatism being the outlier and obviously I think during political solutions will be the answer to that but Naturally there are growing pains in that in that process But it is I think entirely for the good and was a wise choice To give the police the levels the Responsibilities that have been given to the police and I think we'll see a lot of evolution in Indonesia on that front I I too do not You know see in my day-to-day work any indications that there's a real risk of a military intervention in politics You know, obviously, you know, you know, you can always have concerns about that, but it's a fairly It's a it is it is fairly clear that Indonesia's leaders civilian and military are Committed to the trajectory the country is on and it's also very clear that Indonesia's media civil society courts and Parliament are robust, you know, it is it is it is it would it would be you know It would be quite a thing for that to happen, but I noted the comment that you know Even people who've had us military education may may be on the wrong side of these things And you know, let me just state that you getting us training in us military schools is not a panacea It doesn't cure all things. There certainly are that you know, there are there certainly are times when People go the wrong direction. Even you know, even if they've been exposed to the best of training But I don't I just don't expect anything in that regard on the Navy question the only thing I would add to Hyano's points is that the is it I think one of the questions we're in the region and the rest of the region is maritime law enforcement that is Whitehall versus Greyhall capabilities the countries around the South China Sea have remarkably limited maritime domain awareness capabilities and also having in general You know overly modest Maritime security capability. They don't have enough Navy or Coast Guard type assets and the Reliance on naval assets increasingly runs the risk of sparking conflicts by the apparent militarization of any given situation You know, I would say that sometimes that's been done with opportunistically, you know, so countries can use the Excuses of a you know Greyhall ship showed up so therefore we have to react and I think that's what we saw China do in the case of the Scarborough Shoal actually was to react to a Filipino naval vessel being there But now you do see a concerted effort across the region to build up Maritime security capabilities on the naval side, but also on the civilian maritime law enforcement side Apologize comment very quickly in sort of reverse order The reason I told that Mordani story Applies with respect to the Navy now it be crazy for Indonesia to bankrupt itself dealing with a China threat It isn't even close to the horizon or and probably even if it were closer It would be a mistake. I think to concentrate on That level of capability as opposed to the more immediate surveillance capabilities have been mentioned I think the question seemed to suggest the possibility of a military coup in Indonesia I think it's inconceivable military couldn't possibly govern the country and I think they know that It's way beyond that this point, which is a very good thing But finally I want to just make a slight dissent on this all the applause for separating the police from the military And I don't mean it by saying I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's a good thing I think it was needed, but I Certainly some of my colleagues in the US government. I thought were overly rigid in in their application What they thought was the principle that the police does internal security and the military is only for external security and First of all, I have the impression and I'm happy to be corrected on this But that one of the bad consequences of what's been done is there's virtually now no adult supervision of the police because the police Now report directly to the Commander-in-Chief and the Commander-in-Chief President Uriyano does not have time to Micromanage the police, so I'm there. I think that's a problem that needs to be corrected secondly People who sort of took the American model forgot that the United States doesn't have a national police force much as the FBI Might aspire to be one. They're very local police. There's extraordinary local supervision and It seems to me that Indonesia probably needs to go somewhat in that direction Although maybe that would just make the corruption problem in the police, which is quite serious even worse but I and then finally I'm not for bringing the military back into heavy involvement and security matters But we call out our military when there's a natural disaster we call out our military on the rare occasions when there's massive civil disorder The I can't imagine that it would be a good thing to start training the Indonesian police to deal with that sort of problem And yet the lack of that capability may be part of the reason why these church burnings go Unpunished back about 10 years ago in First I think it was still megawatt. He was the president when there was terrible fighting in post so between Christians and Muslims almost on verge of ethnic cleansing and When it was suggested perhaps it would be good to have some Indonesian military forces that are trained to deal with civil disturbance Within the US government. At least there was an almost ideological opposition of that because no no that's the police responsibility Well the police I don't think well. I don't know someone tell me it obviously is sort of calm down but probably just because of People got worn out. I don't think it was because there was an effective security presence. So it It's a good trend. It's the right direction, but I think it requires a little bit of revisiting Well before I ask you to join me in thanking the panel. I want to say a couple words of thanks to you You have been a great audience today. I know there's a lot of talent in this audience this conference has been step towards Capturing some of what was been what has been discussed today and will be pulled together into a report Called the US-Indonesia relationship at 2020 and hopefully that report will include some very useful recommendations for both our governments Companies and civil society. So I hope you'll if you have ideas, please contact us at the south CSIS Southeast Asia program. We'd love to hear from you. Please join me in thanking this outstanding panel for their for their help Thank you very much and thank you again to to our sponsors and to all of you for joining us today Thank you and good night