Bismillahi was-salatu was-salam wa-ra'ana Rasoolillahi sallallahu wa-ra'alihi wa-salam ama ba'adah as-salam wa-ra'alikum wa-rahmatullah wa-barakatuh Brothers and sisters it gives me great pleasure to welcome you and to introduce you to a brand new show and a brand new podcast called The Hot Seat. To understand a little bit more about The Hot Seat we first have to understand the context of the modern day world we find ourselves living in in the year 2019. It is a world in which perhaps there are more doubts misconceptions and misinterpretations that are thrown around about the religion of Islam than in any other period of time in the history of mankind. The internet is a number one source used by people globally to acquire information on any topic and it is riddled and full of false notions and erroneous ideologies about the Dean of Allah Aziz al-Wajab. Our kids ourselves are being exposed to this kind of information on a daily and if not daily then at the very least weekly basis and whether we know it or not whether we choose to accept it or not it is having an effect on ourselves our hearts our minds and ultimately our understanding of this beautiful religion. To further complicate the problem many of us find ourselves living in western societies where the governments and the social norms and pressures are constantly trying to redefine what is good and what is bad what is accepted and what is rejected what Islam is and is allowed to be and what Islam is never allowed to be. All of this my brothers and sisters ultimately leads to confusion it leads to ignorance and if Allah permits it can lead to misguidance. The hot seat has therefore been designed with the permission of Allah alone to counter these kind of modern day contemporary issues head on by using the knowledge and the guidance of the Muslims of the past the early generations of Muslims the best of generations. There's not a single Muslim on the face of the planet today that would doubt the fact that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala completed our religion for us over 1400 years ago and that that completed, holistic, perfect religion is just as applicable now in the year 2019 as it was back then. We truly do have classical solutions for contemporary problems however this isn't your normal average Islamic lecture series first of all it's not a lecture it's a discussion between two parties often opposing parties in an attempt to reach the truth bit in there and secondly and perhaps more importantly it's a unique one of its kind interactive podcast where you from the comfort of your own home have the opportunity to vote for and to choose the topic we'll be discussing on the show. You also have the chance to ask your own questions on these contemporary issues and to grill the speaker if you feel like he hasn't been grilled on the show itself. I'll be releasing details of how you can do both of those things at the end of this episode but for now without any further ado let's get into this episode of The Hot Seat Salamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh just before we get into this episode I just want to mention stick around until the end of this episode because we have a very special and exciting announcement for you guys Salamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh Salamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh We have a very very important topic to discuss today and that is the issue of the Sunnah and Hadiths and whether they are actually part of the religion or not and if they are part of the religion then can we actually trust them have they been preserved or not so I want to start the discussion with a really really simple question and that is why do you feel like the words of Allah in the Quran is not enough for you why do you have to turn to the words of a human being the answer to your question is Allah is the one who commanded us to go to legislations from the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam it's Allah who commanded us Allah tells us subhanahu wa ta'ala that the messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam he came to teach two things he came to teach the Quran and he came to teach wisdom now the Quran we will know where he is and what what else was Allah referring to when he said that he came to teach us wisdom does the Quran have wisdom in it so why do you feel why are you then saying that this has to be something other than the Quran first of all the ayah says and you know the Arabic language and we've studied in the Arabic language that the wao that's used in its default position the asal the original usage of the wao in the Arabic language is that it shows that these two things are two separate things and you also know that there are many times in the Quran where there is a wao that comes but it's not referring to two separate things for example is seeking help from Allah not also worship yet there is a wao in between them so that's why I said the default position is that the wao in the Arabic language it shows that two things are separate like the ayah what did it say that I mentioned that he teaches the Quran and he teaches waal hikmah wisdom waal hikmah the wao is there so those are two different entities you're now saying but there is verses in the Quran here or there where Allah uses the wao but they show the same thing yes like iyakin abudu wa iyakin esta'inan correct Allah mentioned we'll say that this is an exception it's an exception from that example because this is called atful khasi ala al-am it's called atful khasi ala al-am you're taking a specific and you're attributing it to a general that happens in the Quran but it's not in the situation just because it doesn't suit you why can't we use it in the situation for example the kitab mentioned in this verse the one that you're talking about is the Quran in general and the hikmah is the wisdom found in the Quran very similar thing it's actually taken something specific from the same thing that it's general Allah says in another ayah Allah says in the wives of the prophets Allah is saying to them mention what was read in your houses what was recited in your houses and Allah mentioned two things that were recited in the houses the verses of Allah and wisdom we know that the prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam was not always talking Quran you know i agree with that yeah that's the wisdom every day every minute every second wasn't talking Quran he wasn't reading Quran sallallahu alaihi wa sallam there was speech other than that which he was saying that's what the wisdom is referring to here that is what it's saying the reason why i have an issue with this is because in another ayah in the Quran Allah says we reveal the Quran upon you as a clarification for all things so i return to the question Allah your creator is telling you that the book contains everything you need to know why then do you feel like it doesn't contain everything you need you see you're right the Quran clarifies everything to us it does it tells us everything that we need to know and if it wants us to know more information regarding a matter the Quran has clarified for us who we need to go to which is the messenger Allah says in another ayah we sent the Quran on you to clarify for the people so Allah clarified everything for us he did in the Quran because he told us what we needed in the verses that we needed and the meaning that is in those verses Allah told us it and whichever other verses that we don't understand its meaning like we don't know how to implement it so the messenger came and he told us how we need to come and how we need to implement these verses and what these verses mean so you're right when you say that the Quran clarified everything for us it did it clarified for us everything by telling us what each verse means and it also clarified it for us by telling us to go to the messenger when there is a verse that's ambiguous so the Quran yes it did clarify everything to us okay let's move on but that's not the only verse where Allah tells us to go to the messenger Allah says anyone who obeys the messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam has obeyed Allah so if one wants to obey Allah he has to obey the messenger and if he doesn't obey the messenger that person hasn't obeyed Allah okay i was i was still argue that because the messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam brought the Quran to us even when you obey him in terms of what he's bringing from the Quran one could say one could say that obeying Allah and obeying his messenger is restricted to the Quran only one could say that but i really want to talk about a more specific no but that question okay has obeyed Allah anyone who restricts an unrestricted verse has to bring evidence for that because the ayah says anyone who obeys the messenger this obedience is in his speech it's in his action it's what he got from the Quran and he also and also anything he got from other than the Quran it's unrestricted so if you say it's only referring to taking from the messenger sallallahu when he took it from the Quran i would say this requires evidence fair point i'll bring my evidence right now Allah says these are the these are the verses of Allah we recite them upon you with truth then in which hadith the word actually in Arabic use is actually hadith in this verse then in which hadith after Allah and his verses will they believe isn't this clearly telling us not to follow the hadith and stick to the Quran so the hadith that was referring to the ayah came down on and as scholars they mentioned it was siyaq and the context explains it is that people were taking the speeches of others other than Allah Azor Jalla they were taking speeches from other than Allah Azor Jalla and from other than the messenger because we brought we brought evidence to say that the messenger is an exception here anyone who takes a speech other than Allah's speech subhanahu wa ta'ala then this person is what the ayah is referring to because if you say hadith here it means hadith says what we know it today yeah that that wasn't coined at that time the word hadith was never called hadith at the time of the messenger sallallahu so it's an innovation the definition or the meaning or the reality the reality and the word itself no the reality you know it's not it's not an innovation but the definition were coined after the reason why it was coined after is because the Arabs at that time didn't need to know what a hadith was the sahabas didn't need to be told you know this is what hadith means and this is not what a hadith means they were saliqi they were this was innate for them you know like they didn't need to know Arabic grammar like they didn't need to know usul al-fiqh these people they didn't need definitions definitions came after when the none Arabs started to take Islam and embrace Islam and doubts started to creep into them and ignorance started to increase this is when terms became defined but the definition and the reality of the definition was always a time of the messenger so my question here is my point here sorry is that the word hadith the word hadith here is it's not referring to the messenger and it's it's something we need to take on board which is we need to take the whole entire Quran together we need to take the Quran together this is not referring to the messenger it was referring to the Quraysh and the disbelievers who took their speeches of their forefathers over the speech of Allah and his messenger but we have extensive verses many multitude verses which instruct us rather command us that we need to follow the messenger alayhi salatu as-salam Allah says anything which a messenger as-salam gives to you take from him and whatever he prohibits from you stay away from and the context of that verse was the context in which he came down was the messenger as-salam the battle that he had with the people of banu nabir where Allah says alayhi salatu as-salam just gives a summary of the context of what the context was of course it was talking about spoils of war spoils of war it was talking about booty but the spoils of war and the booty is not only restricted to that no one from the sahabas the noble companions understood it to be that do you not think by the wording that Allah saying whatever he gives you is quite clearly talking about the act of giving like you would give spoils of war Allah didn't say whatever he does you do he said whatever he gives you don't you think that's quite clearly and quite obviously talking about the spoils of war here but how how did he give them the spoils of war based on a legislation from Allah's regenerate from the sunnah right it would he gave it through his own actions yeah it wasn't detailed in the Quran who to give he gave it through his own actions no doubt so it's so what he gave them salallahu alayhi salam he is unrestricted sunnah can't be given like i gave these persons a couple of hadiths i could say that wouldn't be wrong um let me flip the question to you okay if i say what might i talk about rasool can i i i be used as taking the Quran yes i could use that for the Quran yeah it could but it's not talking about the Quran it's talking about spoils of war yeah correct i just i'm trying to show you that you can't use this verse now because the eyes only talking about spoils of war he's talking about the Quran and in in this particular circumstance talking about spoils of war but to take a specific example where Allah says take this and then to say therefore we can take everything is a stretch i'm saying the best people who the most eloquent of people the companions that's what they understood us okay let's move on to the sunnah itself didn't the messenger salallahu alayhi salam forbid the companions from writing down his statements and only stick to writing the Quran why it is true that the messenger salallahu alayhi salam is said to the companions la taktubu anni ghayra al-Qur'an wa man kateb anni ghayra al-Qur'an fal yamhu that don't write from me other than the Quran and anyone who wrote other than the Quran from me then wipe it that was something that the best messenger salallahu alayhi salam said but there was also situations where the messenger salallahu alayhi salam he said to a noble companion who wanted a narration to be written for him uh or something that the messenger said and then he asked for it and the messenger salallahu alayhi salam he said to the companions uqtubu li abisha right for abisha you see so there were times that the messenger salallahu alayhi salam his narrations were written in his presence you know the famous hadith of abu urayla he said abdullahi abdullah abdullah abdullah he wrote he wrote more than i did in hadiths this also proves that the hadith were written not to mention the messenger salallahu alayhi salam when abdullahi abdullah abdullah abdullah abdullah abdullah abdullah abdullah noble companion uraysh went to him and they said to him are you writing everything the messenger salallahu alayhi salam says i mean he's a human he laughs he jokes he'll say things out of anger sometimes he'll say out of joy do you write everything he says and so this made abdullahi abdullah abdullah abdullah you know shocked so he went to the messenger salallahu alayhi salam and he said this is what they said to me and the messenger said to him uqtub for well-lady nafs muhammadun biyadi right i swear by the lord in which muhammad's soul is in his hand he said right for verily nothing other than the truth comes out of my mouth so this is a clear statement of his not to mention Allah says in the Qur'an Allah says in that ayah those of you who believe if you're gonna take money or loan and borrow money from one another Allah says write it and the ones who we who write it who testify to it the witness everything armin mantar dona min ash-shuhada the witness are going to be reliable people i'm asking you a sincere question if we were told to write debt why wouldn't we write the process in his life why wouldn't we write his statements and his words why wouldn't we write his interpretation of verses and what he said about them the answer to that question is because hundreds of years later we would end up in a situation where muslims would actually equate that with the Qur'an and believe that the legislative rulings coming from the messenger who was a human being are equal to the legislative rulings coming from Allah who is our creator and his creator and that is exactly the situation we find ourselves today is it not i mean the message so i said one of the reasons he did say don't write whatever whatever comes from me at the beginning of islam and was abrogated at the end it's actually abrogated was that the fear that people may not distinguish the Qur'an from the exactly one from the other that they don't because people are going to read you see the the difference between the Qur'an and the sunnah is that the Qur'an's rulings are you are worshipping Allah on every letter of the Qur'an not the sunnah so if the people don't distinguish one from the other they would be saying for example not being able to distinguish one from the other so he didn't want that to happen he wanted people to know this is the Qur'an and this is what you pray Salah with so other than that there's no difference in terms of legislation in terms of judgment and ruling you believe that the sunnah is equal to the Qur'an in judgment and ruling a series then why does Allah says why does Allah say Allah says is it anybody other than Allah i should take hakemah as a judge when he is the one who has revealed the Qur'an upon you completely detailed more faster detailed again another thing we need to go back to is you can't just take one verse and abandon the other verses so you have to take all of those verses together again what did we say at the beginning so in essence if you take Allah as a hakem you've taken the message as a hakem by default you've taken him by because that's all the messenger sallallahu alayhi sallam is explaining what the Qur'an has mentioned he's even adding legislations from that which is in the Qur'an like in from Allah Azza wa Jalla so it's Allah who judged so for example the legislation of growing your beard is not found in the Qur'an but it's found in the sunnah which the messenger sallallahu alayhi sallam took from Allah Azza wa Jalla why what if it's so important you know the famous roman leader who came to the messenger sallallahu alayhi sallam i mean the messenger that they said to the prophet sallallahu alayhi sallam they the man he had shaved his beard and he had a big moustache and so he said to him who commanded you this who commanded you to shave your beard and to let your moustache thick and then he said to him my my lord referring to his leader and then the messenger sallallahu alayhi sallam grabbed his own beard and he said Allah commanded me this pause question here if it's important for us to know that why didn't Allah mention it for us in the Qur'an Allah already told us Muhammad we set the Qur'an on you on you so you can clarify for the people you see the messenger sallallahu alayhi sallam is here that's his job that is that's his role alayhi sallallahu sallam is to explain things to you for you for you to see how to live your life how to be a muslim what to do or what not to do that's his job alayhi sallallahu sallam and that's why when we dispute one another and we argue with one another we take it back to him if you dispute one another you argue bring it back to Allah and his messenger I ask you a question we know what it means to bring it back to Allah and we know what it means to bring it back to the messenger when he was alive but how do I bring it back to the messenger now how because we can't say that verse is not implemented of course it's implemented the Qur'an was sent down for it to be implemented so this verse says take it back to the messenger he's not with us right now how do I take it back to him okay out of sincerity I would have to say that you brought a lot of evidences from the Qur'an you have answered my question it's a difficult one to answer but I also want to go on to another point which is if you say that Allah is commanding us to take the sunnah of the messenger sallallahu alayhi sallam how do we know it's been preserved correctly how do we know it's reached us correctly to this day so that answer of your question would have allowed me to move on to that point which is if you had said that after the messenger sallallahu alayhi sallam's death we were taking it we have to take it back to his sunnah because he's not with us anymore it's his sunnah that we're taking it back to Allah only would say that if the sunnah is preserved but do we not have weak hadith we're not a fabricated hadith we're not a hadith that the scholars disagree on with that doubt there is sure there are weak narration there are fabricated narrations there are liars who try to lie about the messenger sallallahu alayhi sallam but that doesn't dismiss there are authentic hadiths and you and I know that it wasn't the quraniyun the supposed quraniyun who came out and proved that these hadiths were weak no it's the people who mentioned the quran the ones who mentioned the sunnah as an as a source of evidence they were the ones who showed this hadiths are weak it is them who stood up to prove that these are authentic and these are weak as the poet said it was the scholars who stood up and they distinguished the weak narrations from the authentic narrations it was it was these scholars are men are they not the human beings it's not from our belief and our creed as Muslims that human beings can make mistakes so we're in so just to understand your position you're saying we're entrusting our source of legislation in the religion to human beings I gave you an example at the beginning of the verse that's when you're taking that from somebody you a witness a witness so I'm taking men for a witness on a worldly issue correct you know because a world issue is much smaller than a religious issue yeah a worldly issue is not as important as a religious issue without a doubt but it's if we look the thing is here is for example Allah says if a faser comes to you fattatabbatu verified that's what the ayah says that's the directly says to us if a faser comes to you with the news then verified what about if the person is not a faser then according to that ayah then it's okay yeah we don't need to verify right yeah so the ayah told me that if I see a reliable person who meets the conditions of reliability integrity is reliable I don't need to verify I take his words so these conditions of integrity and reliable and for example strong memory etc I'm assuming we got it from Allah and his messenger they scattered all over the verses of the Quran here or there but that ayah is the is the backbone to use that the people who are reliable because they say we take the Quran yes that's whether they're not taking the Quran to be honest because I mentioned many ayahs that show that we need to take the sunnah but let's for the sake of argument let's say they take the Quran well here it is Allah saying and here we have a person who you wouldn't say he's fasted do you really think someone like Al-Bukhari who came 250 years after the death of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is reliable I mean considering that he's there's such a long time span between him and the messenger surely that something could have gone wrong in that entire chain whether intentionally or unintentionally a mistake's happened I mean if you're alluding to the Imam Al-Bukhari was the first person to write the hadith of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and the nuts was he not no of course he wasn't who was who proceeded him then Al-Imam Al-Bukhari was not even the sixth or seventh person who wrote hadith there were many many scholars before him that were hadith first of all we have to understand the same way that the Quran was written and the same people who we trusted with the Quran are the same people we're trusting with the sunnah here right now what do you mean by that I mean look at the sunnah right now look at the sunnah the sunnah was memorized and it was written the Quran was memorized and it was written remember first of all you need to know the hivd of the Quran how is the Quran protected first it was memorized right yes Allah told us in the ayah but it is a clear ayah in the hearts of those who have knowledge and if you don't the Quran was memorized in the Prophet's chest and then it moved on to the chest and the hearts of the companions it was compiled in the hearts of the believers they memorized it they kept it in their chest and then after that and he brought the whole entire Quran that were written it just wasn't compiled the Quran was written before Abu Bakr but he brought it together he did jam'a and I need to give you the long it will take us probably a bit but the lines of poetry that he mentions that the story of how it took place he says in the face of it is a story of the lie in the time of the lost truth and after a very serious battle his victory and was a battle for the poor Qur'an he called Abu Bakr al-Farouq afraid of the Qur'an and the heart of the Qur'an was lost so I gathered him in the office and he counted as if we were sure of the justice of the eye so he said in the name of Allah, he gathered it with the advice and the jiddi wal-hazmi l-libahra he felt that the people who were memorizing the Qur'an had died or were dying and so he felt the need to compile the Qur'an okay but the Qur'an was written before the same with the sunnah the sunnah was memorized and it was what sorry the sunnah was memorizing compiled in its entirety at the time of Abu Bakr no no no no Abu Bakr so there's a difference but I'm talking about both of them at the time of the messenger both from the time the messenger the Qur'an was written down in its entirety not necessarily compiled but it was written down all of the hadith the process of either written or memorized okay the same with the Qur'an either memorized or written but but more of the Qur'an was written than the sunnah would you agree on that at the very least without a doubt I mean and then the Qur'an also was compiled compiled in its entirety way before the sunnah was again the reason it was because the people who were memorizing the Qur'an were feared to die yes whereas not the sunnah no doubt I don't mind about the reason what the point I'm trying to make is if you're trying to say that the process was the same for the two so you accept this one why don't you accept this one I don't think that's fair I think the process in itself from a from a bird's eye view was similar but the details distinguished that this one was compiled much so let's take a step back let's take a step back at the time of the messenger the Qur'an was memorized and it was written the sunnah was memorized and it was written we agree on that not necessarily that's a general statement when we look at the specifics what we just agreed that more of the Qur'an was written than memorized in comparison to the sunnah do you agree on that because you can say a general statement but it doesn't it doesn't change my argument the fact that something with more or less doesn't really it completely changes it because there's more chance of this one being lost if it was written less whereas this one was written much more there's less chance of it's being lost and that's exactly what we're talking about okay what okay um that would mean that the sunnah was written an amount of the sunnah was written that could be lost so what do you mean by that for example when you said that the Qur'an a lot of it was written yes and I said a lot of the sunnah was written as well meaning all of the sunnah was written yes and it was also memorized if you said that yeah and all of it was memorized if you said that I'd trust it much more the entire sunnah was either written or memorized okay but that's different we have memorization is different to writing do you agree for the Arabs it was really the same they were a people who passed everything on by memory so it's funny I met a man who was an Arabic teacher he told Arabic he was an Arabic teacher and um I said to him what you teach Arabic and he's a Qur'an he calls himself Qur'ani he's I said I followed the Qur'an so I said how do you teach Arabic and he goes yeah I teach it in Mura'uqais I'm telling my dad Zuhair ibn Abi Sulma these are the books I you know the Arabic poetry so I said you believe it's preserved he says yeah but you don't believe the sunnah is preserved the pre-islamic poetry we have it today it's written like we read it for you this is 100 Mura'uqais was 150 years before the message is Allah the reason why the Qur'an wasn't sent down in one book or even the small portions that came down it wasn't done on papers because Allah knew these people people have their memory was unique and it's not fair that you compare a something that was done at that time for its context and you want to compare it yourself right now it's incorrect you're looking at it wrong if you want to know there's reasons behind things you need to look at how they were as people these people would listen to a poetry once once once from a man all of it once he would hear it and he'd memorize it and that's how they passed it on when he did that he said knowledge before was in the men's hearts do you think Imam Ahmad would use to come to a halak and he would sit down and he would read from a paper in a book these people knew thousands and thousands of narrations from the top of their heads and they wouldn't get it wrong the hip was taqib had solid memory that's one that's a form of preservation you can't deny especially if you know the arab tradition number two is a writing and i proved to you that the sunnah was written at the time of the messenger alayya sallatu sallam so at the time of the messenger the Qur'an and the sunnah are both present preservation wise they're both present so no one could deny that so have you got any can i go and see a manuscript or something that was written by a companion in terms of the sunnah there was a Sufra written by abdelayna amr abla asana but that's what trickled into you see what i mean like even the Qur'an right now you want this questions whether earth man's mushaf is it the one that's there or not do you see my point but the Qur'an today you find it's just here this is the mushaf you're reading you're not reading what abubakar wrote with his hand or you know the mushaf that uh the companions wrote why do you want to rely so heavily on bukhari then so again there was something i was going to say before so you said bukhari rahimullah ita'ala wasn't the first person to write it okay you proved that you proved that suyuta rahimullah mentions in his al fiyah he says awalu jami al hadithi wal atar ibn shihabin aamurallahu umar the first person to write was muhammad ibn shihab al zuhri who is a tabi'i he was the first person to write it now after that came a people we can't tell who was before who mean they were all just right at the same time ibn jureijin wa hushaym wa maliki wa ma'amarin wa walad il-mubarak we have ibn jureij we have hushaym ibn basheer we have malik ibn anas we have ma'amar ibn rashid and we have abdullahi ibn mubarak these people all wrote it these are the teachers of bukhari or the teachers and the teachers teachers of bukhari do you see my point bukhari came after that the only difference between them and bukhari is that bukhari conditioned authenticity they didn't condition authenticity they compiled everything the other difference in the modern world at least you can see is everybody who follows the hadiths says bukhari muslim bukhari muslim bukhari muslim this is pretty much all you hear and there's no doubt you yourself would admit that bukhari's book of hadith is the most authentic is it not would you agree to that okay great so if you agree to that then obviously it has a special importance in the the science of hadith or this this methodology of hadith and it doesn't escape the fact that he came 250 years later talk me through the process between the time of the companions and him how does that look how can we be so sure that i'm so how can we trust that it hasn't been corrupted in those years you see al-imam al-bukhari if his book gets lost right now and we don't have bukhari all of those hadith we have in other places really of course we do what he did was i told you this you have to people don't understand this if you get rid of sahih al-bukhari right now you destroy it and you those are hadiths are in muslim abishayba and muslim adima muhammad and muqtab malik which are present today of course of course they're in other books of hadith the only difference is bukhari he picked those hadiths based on authenticity he conditioned something that no one preceded him in he said i'm going to condition authenticity and the reason why he did that is because the ones before him they needed to take every and anything that was attributed to the prophet so the first stage was just take the hadiths just take it whether it's sahih or not don't worry just take the chain and write it out the second stage was this is wrong get rid of this one get rid of this one get rid of this one this is sahih this is not it was stages it went through phases it went through bukhari's phase or the stage that he was going through was a hadith sarah sahih okay question here and that's why people call bukhari because he's sahih the umma unanimously unanimously agreed upon this book each ma'a can sense that is the most authentic book after the book of Allah the Quran okay pause for a second here how far do we take this do we believe that every single letter was preserved from the hadiths the way that we believe about the Quran no you're right the Quran the Quran as I said you before the wordings we are we are worshipping Allah on this ayah you're worshipping Allah on every word every letter you're worshipping Allah with it like as for the sunnah the sunnah of the messengers is his speech his actions his consent and his situation his appearance how he looked how his manners were his manners there's no words to observe okay i'm talking about the prophet's manners i'm going to use my own wordings yeah but that's a sunnah for us the sunnah is also the prophet asalam and the way he looked everybody would use their wording that they thought most appropriate for the appearance of the messenger okay the prophet's actions everybody would use their own tabir their own wordings to show how the prophet asalam and did an action do you not see how this is problematic though when you're saying this because we actually worship Allah based on these actions and you're saying that it might not be preserved completely word for word someone would just saying how he sees it his opinion his view his i mean you can't say that's that's not the case right now if two people saw an incident you'll ask them both what happened you take it take a note down and you would say this is this is what the eyewitnesses said i agree that's the case that's exactly how are you worshipping Allah based are sorry are you taking their words word for word verbatim or are you using the meaning and the concept that's in them even if you're using the meaning because when you convey something word for word it's obviously much stronger than when you're just conveying a meaning how can you how can you that's my question how can you you convey word for word an action that the message is doing there's no word for you to exactly that's my point that's the danger of worshipping Allah based on these actions whereas if you follow the Quran alone you wouldn't how how's it how's how's it dangerous that's a leap because because the the leap that i'm taking is that if somebody's conveying and something that they saw and i'm a normal human being i'm not a prophet i'm just a normal human being and i'm conveying something that i saw naturally when i convey that it's got my own filter in it you have to admit that's the case okay so you saw it another person saw it another person saw it your story all seems the same maybe different it's like somebody saying so so is good another person he's righteous another person he's noble all of them i want to understand it that they're discarding him and belittling him and that's what i i want to understand we said that the hadith of the prophet i said i'm dividing into the prophet's wordings what the messenger said alaihi salatu salam what the messenger said again there are wordings that are verbatim took from him word for word like the adhkar the adhkar and the adhya are word for word because we worshipping Allah based on this now okay there are wordings of the messenger that are narrated by meaning and when it comes to the messenger alaihi salatu salam this is the unique thing for the Quran and the unique and the unique thing for the sunnah the Quran we worship Allah based on the wording and the meaning the sunnah we're acting upon it based on meaning that's what matters it's meaning that matters not the wording as long as the meaning that both parties are conveying or all groups are conveying we'll take it see this is a reliable person a reliable person is telling you something you've no reason to question his integrity you've no reason to question his morality he's conveying a message to you you have to accept it okay let's go back to Bukhari do you believe that all of the hadith in Bukhari in a general sense are authentic general sense without doubt okay random question how many years did the prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam remain in Mecca for before he migrated to Medina he stayed sallallahu alaihi wa sallam in Mecca Mecca for 13 years and in Medina for 10 he didn't stay in Mecca for 10 years the messenger sallallahu alaihi wa sallam no he didn't he stayed he stayed there for 13 years so hadith found in Bukhari narrated by Anas ibn Malik Allah sent him as a messenger when he was 40 years old afterwards he resided in Mecca for 10 years one hadith another hadith which is where you obviously get your answer from narrated ibn ambass Allah's prophet was divinely inspired at the age of 40 then he stayed in Mecca for 13 years we have a book where you believe that in a general sense all of these narrations are authentic one of them says 13 years another one says 10 it's impossible for them both to be right okay but the chain to the to the sahabi who said this statement is authentically transmitted from him if it's in Bukhari sorry sahih the companion did say this okay so now the companion got it wrong you're saying we don't believe the companions aren't fallible or fallible they can do mistakes they can get it right they can get it wrong that you need to know okay we don't believe that the sahabas are free from errors and mistakes okay we don't with the humans they can't do it wrong they can get it wrong okay but i don't even believe the company did it wrong here okay but before you move on to that okay fine go on and tell i don't even think he did a mistake aslan but i'm just trying to put how do you reconcile the two it's easy because the arab's they rounded numbers off that was a common thing i mean we know we call the hadith of the man we call it 40 hadith of no we do but it's 42 hadiths what do you do with the two other two hadiths you say 40 hadiths so the arab's they round off numbers they round it off so the companion rounded it off and that's the it's an arab way of doing things so the question here that i think you are trying to prove here is that bukhari has weak hadith in there but that hadith is authentically transmitted to the companion that's bukhari's job and it's him who bought you the two narrations don't think he doesn't know numbers he's just trying to show you that there's this view and there's that view okay both views can be reconciled okay let's move on to a well-known statement that many people say and that is a claim that one of the companions that narrated the most hadiths is abu hurayra is that correct first of all okay however he only spent a very short time maybe four years with the messengers sallallahu alayhi wa sallam how how can he have narrated so many hadiths having spent such a short amount of time with him when other companions spent longer with the messenger and they didn't rate as many hadiths so here we have to distinguish one from the other i'm not saying that abu hurayra had more hadith than any other companion we don't believe that or i don't believe that or do you believe there are other companions who had more hadith from the abu hurayra but he's one of the highest right he's one of the highest i want two things to be distinguished okay him hearing more hadiths from the messengers sallallahu alayhi wa sallam or him narrating more hadiths i'll give an example i sat with you for one day yeah and another brother sat with you for 10 years that brother who sat with me who sat with you for one day i took about everything i saw that one day and the brother who sat with you for 10 years he chose not to talk about it right so he knew more but he chose not to so other companions i don't know i want to say they chose not to but other aspects took over their lives like abu bakr of the law and who was busy with the wilaya leadership and controlling the muslim this and that so everything abu hurayra was saying they already know it he was lying they would say this man's a lie he's a kid that we were with the messenger he didn't say this sallallahu alayhi wa sallam number two abu hurayra he himself said it with his own mouth he said that abu hurayra he had more hadiths from the prophet than me but the difference was abu hurayra ibadah overcame him he got busy with ibadah and worship of Allah az wa jalla whereas abu hurayra sat down in the masjid and he would just read narrations narrations narrations narrations narrations another thing is abu hurayra had other hadiths from their companions themselves what do you mean by that sorry so he narrated from a companion narrated from the messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam so it wasn't all that which he heard from the prophet directly there are hadiths that he wasn't alive to see but he heard it from other companions like abu bakr and umar and other companions he narrated from okay i want to understand exactly what you believe the hadiths are because we obviously believe that we take our religion from Allah and the messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was a human being where did he get his hadith from where did he get these things from the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam he never spoke from his own whims and desires it's a revelation from Allah az wa jalla the hadith were revelation from Allah az wa jalla so we're expected to say and believe that everything that the messenger did from the moment he woke up to the moment he went to sleep was a revelation whether what what the food he ate or anything any kind of anything that he did just took my word out of context so what do you mean i said everything the prophet said and you said everything the prophet does okay no problem so this is restricted but we also believe the hadiths of his actions do we know so are you saying that his actions are not revelation not all of them no i didn't say that to you how do you separate what's the revelation what's not but i didn't say that to you everything he does it says everything he said okay we'll come back to the his speech but for his actions how do you separate what is revelation what is not so anything the messiah sallallahu alayhi sallam did to get closer to Allah he did it to get to he did to get closer to Allah az wa jalla and there is no evidence which comes from him or from another external source that proves that this is specific for him so long as he's not specific to him and he done it to get closer to Allah az wa jalla this is a ibadah that he he's he got it from Allah az wa jalla like in his speech sallallahu alayhi wasallam it's from Allah az wa jalla so his speech is is revelation from Allah let's go to the speech now there's there are never times where he gave a verdict and then he was wrong and he had to come back and they had to give a new verdict that never happened um any statement there are times that the prophet sallallahu alayhi sallam so the first time he spoke was that revelation no he gave each had it was his person independent independent answer interesting so he gave a fatwa sallallahu alayhi wasallam he done each tihad from himself and then he got corrected for his each tihad so in essence when the ayah says when my aunt in power he doesn't speak without revelation it means the ultimate conclusion that the ummah will receive is a revelation from Allah az wa jalla from him so whether he said it first or not what reaches us and what we implement is going to be what is going to be the corrected okay fine we also know that when the messenger used to receive revelation they used to be physical duress that was seen upon him is that the case so throughout his whole life anytime he spoke he's physically in duress no no not every form of revelation that wasn't all of his revelation what did you mean then some of these revelations were hardship and it was and some of them they weren't like he wouldn't always have a excessive pain in the Quran that came down like don't think to yourself that the revelation of the Quran was all in one particular form no it wasn't sometimes it would be in different ways like for example um jibreel came to him sallallahu alayhi wasallam and he revised the Quran with him the last year he came and this is a revelation he was teaching him the Quran so there were times that the Quran came to him other than a bell and a noise that wouldn't make him sweat like that so according to you and in the verse that you mentioned earlier one of the messengers sallallahu alayhi wasallam's job was to explain the Quran why do we need that when Allah says why can't we just use our own intellect to interpret the Quran the way we want just like Allah is saying in this verse as in like why don't you ponder over it yeah why do we need someone else's pondering why can't we just take the Quran and understand it the way we want to understand it and read it and get whatever what do you mean so you're restricting the understanding of the Quran to the messengers understanding is that correct Allah is saying do you not ponder do not use your intellect so it seems to me that Allah is saying look at the Quran and use your intellect to interpret it and you're saying no that's not what the answer is okay what does it mean I didn't say read the Quran and look what it interprets it says ponder over it and it doesn't dismiss that you ponder on the Quran in line with what the messengers came with sallallahu alayhi wasallam and that which he's companions on the way they understood it that doesn't deny the pondering so what do these verses mean English ponder over the Quran contemplate over the Quran it doesn't dismiss that you talk you ponder over the Quran and you contemplate over the Quran based on the way that the messengers explained it so when I ponder over the Quran what I came with sallah established a prayer and I look at the word sallah what it means and how the sallah brings me in the sallah that in ha'aneel fahshai wal munkar that the sallah prohibits prohibits a person from evil and I think say subhanallah look how many evils that I would have done if I didn't have to go to the Jama'at and pray in congregation and I ponder it over it like that but not that in you know wa'aqeemu sallah yeah man this ayah is powerful subhanallah the Quran I don't have to pray sallah okay that's not what the ayah is saying the ayah is saying contemplate on the Quran in a way that the messengers came with it and the way he explained it sallallahu so I don't see a contradiction in the messengers sallallahu alaihi wa sallamah commenting on the Quran and explaining the Quran and and pondering over the Quran okay you bought a lot of evidences and you bought some quite convincing arguments about why we should follow the hadiths but there are a couple of questions that still remain with me we have certain hadiths that seem very very strange very odd for example there was a hadith in Bukhari that talks about shaitan the satan urinating in a man's ear surely we can even if we don't reject hadiths in their totality we can overlook these hadiths the Quran is the one that instructed us to believe in the unseen that is something we should believe in it's not it's from the unseen and the sign of the mutaqeen the pious people is that they believe in the unseen and subhanallah the reality of many people who I've seen who complain about sleeping paralysis and they say oh look I can't I'm having problems in my sleep when they do the adhkar that the hadith instructed they say subhanallah I'm fresh I wake up I don't have that problem um I don't have that problem so there is a reality to what what what what the hadith is mentioned without a doubt okay my second question relating to not necessarily rejecting all of the hadiths but rejecting some of them is that as you mentioned before there are certain hadiths that have reached reached us through multiple chains I think they're pretty reliable if someone was going to say I have to follow the hadiths I'd be more happy to follow them than the one that has just come through one chain is it okay to just take the ones that have come through multiple chains and ignore the ones that are singular chain orations this concept of the hadith becoming multitude and singular is a newly introduced matter that wasn't the time of the messenger and his companions they never knew this concept of oh how many people said it okay we'll accept it oh one person said it no I'm not gonna accept and to be very honest with you um the messenger alaihi salam only said one person to nations how when like mu'aidab al-jabal he sent him to the whole people of yemen and he told the people of yemen to take or he told mu'aidab al-jabal to talk to them about tawhid and aqeed and one man by himself so it was one or two people that would go or one person would go and they would go to teach the people about the sub branches of the religion or the creed or the belief of the fundamental issues like mu'aidab al-jabal okay if you're claiming that the companions all understood that the hadiths are part of the religion and we should follow them where did this concept of not following the hadiths originate from the history behind the rejection of the hadith it was just it's an it's an early thing that was done the first group that did it was the khawarij who rejected the hadiths they rejected it and they just took the quran when he thought you know the woman that came to aisha radiallahu ta'ala anha that woman when she came to aisha radiallahu ta'ala anha she said to aisha why is it that when we fast we have to bring back the fasting but when we pray we don't have to bring back the praying like the prayer that we missed actually first thing she said to her is she said are you from the group the khawarij group modern day isis are you from them so she said no the reason why aisha asks is because the people the khawarij would reject sunnah they would reject the sunnah they would only take the quran supposedly they would say they would only take the quran so they were the early people and also the rafidah the rafidah the rafidah rejected the sunnah in totality and great scholars came and they refuted them from them is sheikh al-islam abutameya who wrote a book on them called minhaj sunnah nabawiyah jala ludina al-suiyati he wrote a written a kitab called miftah al-jannah in htijaj ibn sunnah suiyati raheem allahu ta'ala ibn al-wazir al-yamani he has a kitab called ar-rawth al-basim fi dhabbi'ah sunnah abil qasim where he refutes those groups so those are the early people but the rejection of the khawarij and the rafidah was an ultimate complete unrestricted rejection it's it's it's ar-raddu al-muttalaq of the sunnah ar-raddu sunnah al-muttalaq and without any reason like totally the sunnah we don't need just the quran then came after them deviated groups like the mu'tazila like the ashairah who are known as ahlu l-kalam who got affected by philosophy and that the greek logins and their arguments they now rejected the sunnah partially partially rejection they rejected it when it's khabar al-ahad we won't take it in usuru deal or al-akida but we will take khabar al-ahad in furu al-shari'a you know in sub barges of the religion that's a form of rejection that's a step closer to the complete and ultimate rejection and great scholars refuted them like al-imam al-shafiq in his kitab al-risal he took time out for them and he proved that this khabar al-ahad is taken al-imam al-shafiq ar-rahim al-Allah and many other great scholars many other great scholars then came a group in the 20th and the 21st century whose rejection of the sunnah became apparent from the earliest people in this era and this time was a man by the name of Ahmad al-qadiani and he's not the qadiani that the group that they follow it's another man who came out from sheba tukar till hindiya came from the subcontinent rejected the sunnah of the messenger alayhi salatu salam and then after him came Sayyid Ahmed khan and abdullahi jacker and Ahmad al-deen and now became a group after Ahmad al-qadiani became a group but they weren't organized after that became an organization made by Ghulam Ahmad he made a organization where he called it Ahlul Quran and he used to bring every month he would bring out magazines in rejecting the sunnah of the messenger alayhi salatu salam now that's the subcontinent they were the early people to do that and then came out after that the Arab world it came into ardu l-kinana, Egypt and the way that it came to Egypt from was Muhammad abduh who took it from al-afghani jabaluddin al-afghani he took it from him and it came one of the articles that came out on that magazine was called al-islamu Islam is the Quran only and it was written by a doctor his name is called Tawfiq Sadiqi and it's sad because sheikh Muhammad Rashid al-Rida he praised it and he was he endorsed it subhan Allah and you know Muhammad Rashid al-Rida you know right who he is he's the man who sheikh al-Bani said I got affected by him in hadith but he repented from this sheikh Muhammad Rashid al-Rida at the end he left that he walked away from that there's a sheikh called sheikh al-A'adamiya as a kitab called derasat in hadith al-Nabawi he refuted those arguments of Tawfiq Sadiqi then the second person who came out in the Arab world to push this it was Aburaya he wrote a kitab called and Aburaya got refuted by the great imam imam the habi al-asr of this time the imam the habi of this era abdullahi al-Mu'allimi wrote a kitab called al-anwarul kashifa where he refuted aburaya's arguments and where he brought forward and ever since they came out and they would come out Allah would always make a people come out and to refute them but this has no basis in the religion rather the people who reject the sunnah and they say we're only going to take the Quran kufar they're not Muslims i was going to ask what is the ruling on these people they're disbelievers based on the ayah Allah says wa kayfa takfuruna Allah says wa kayfa takfuruna how do you disbelieve the verses of Allah are being read on you the messengers amongst you for the early generation physically meant he was with them for us it means the sunnah what did the ayah say at the beginning why do you turn away from from the Quran and turn away from the sunnah and choose disbelief over it that's what the verse is saying so anyone who turns away from the Quran and the sunnah he is a disbeliever he's not a believer sorry just to clarify is that even for the people who don't reject the hadiths totally but they reject certain erasions no no we're talking about the ones who who reject it in totality great scholars have transmitted ijmaa ibn al qayyim transmitted ijmaa ibn al-hazam transmitted ijmaa ibn al-wazir al-yamanis kitab al-dab al-rohdu al-basim he mentions ijmaa soyotri mentions in his kitab he's miftahru al-jannah he mentions ijmaa ibn utimia and princes ijmaa that they all there's no there's no difference of opinion that these people are disbelievers that they're not Muslims okay if we have people like this that we know in our friends or families can we apply this ruling on to them no no you don't individually apply it on people you guide them or you advise them or you speak to them generally when it comes to kufr you don't take matters into your own hand and place it on people okay but anyone who rejects the sunnah of the messenger salat salam in totality it's not a muslim in general now okay we have two minutes left on the show what is your final piece of advice for anybody who rejects the sunnah i want to say to you you're opening the door for groups like ISIS to exist whether you know it or not it's your narrative that will make them spread how it's because the sunnah is there to prevent anyone coming and making their own interpretation for the Quran i'll give an example the khawarij when they uh wanted to fight against alibra bi al-tarib and they saw ali to be a kafir and they saw a muawiyah to be a kafir and amr to be a kafir and muslim to be kafir and no more companions to be kufar what was it that they were using it's ayat but those ayat were not taking back to the sunnah so that's the narrative and that's the type of people you're encouraging groups like that who just take a verse and just read it without taking it back to what the sunnah said without taking it back to what the companions said i'll give you the khawarij who killed abdelaym al-khabab they killed him and they killed his pregnant wife and they bought the child out of his stomach through the baby on the floor and then what did they say they bring a hadith no they bought the ayah so english translation it's talking about the story of nabilah noh he said to Allah oh Allah destroy these people oh Allah destroy these people and don't let any one of them remain because what's going to come from these people the offspring that they're going to have are disbelievers so he's saying abdelaym al-khabab's wife is pregnant the child that she's going to give birth to is only a kafir so let's kill her and nothing else is going to come from her except you know evil so they've taken a verse from the Quran and use their own intellect or their own reason or their own desires to interpret the way they want so the Quran when narrows it down is the sunnah what even narrows that more down is the companions and then you and i don't need to say what does this verse mean how do we do no we don't need that we really say what did Allah say okay how did the prophet explain it okay and how did the companions understand that as well and then that's how we live our lives then we wouldn't have people throwing verses around like that and playing around with the text as they wish Ustadat ur-khman it's been a pleasure as always that's all we have time for on this episode jazakhla khairan once again for joining me as you guys have seen we've just had a discussion on whether the sunnah and the hadith are actually part of our religion at the hot seat we've actually written a book on this topic available for you guys to download for free from our website head over to www.thehotseatpodcast.com forward slash resources where you can download the book for free please take a read of this and share it with anybody else that you might feel may benefit from this it's written in very simple English deconstructing this methodology step by step in a very easy to read book have a look at it check it out and please do share it with others we're also conscious that many people might not actually want to read a pdf on their phone or their tablet so we're in the process of getting this book as a hard copy on amazon have a look at the same link www.thehotseatpodcast.com forward slash resources in one week's time and inshallah you can find a link for the amazon book as well i hope you enjoyed and benefited from that discussion please do share it with your friends and family members if you feel like they might benefit too and don't forget to hit that subscribe button below so you're notified of any new episodes check out 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Thank you all very much. Please welcome to the White House. We're here for the signing of a proclamation that is designating the week beginning May 27th as National Tourism Week. I know I speak for the entire travel and tourism industry in thanking the Congressional Tourism Caucus for making this event possible. For Nancy and me, your industry is pretty close to home. The White House is part of our national inheritance, and last year alone more than a million people came to visit. So if you suddenly hear a lot of shuffling feet out there, it's just another tour group. Don't turn around. Travel and tourism is an important industry. It's good business and it's great for America. And to borrow a line your industry does it in the old-fashioned way through the hard work of thousands of small businesses. All Americans benefit from your profession, your calling. As our second largest retail industry employing four and a half million workers, you help bring about one of the best economic recoveries in decades. And it's going to get even better. Now today a working family earns $25,000 and has $1,500 more in purchasing power than if tax and inflation rates were still at their 1980 levels. Real after-tax income was increased last year, increased by 5%. With inflation down from 13.5% to 3.2% and the prime rate cut almost in half, more and more Americans can afford to travel and see our beautiful country. But I think the importance of travel and tourism goes far beyond economics. Experiencing America first hand provides outstanding educational opportunities and is terrific for personal growth and where in the world is there a more beautiful place to travel, have fun and relax than in America. From our mountains, our beaches, our islands and planes to our great cities and towns and to God's wonderful creations like the Grand Canyon, the Redwoods of California, the Great Smoky Mountains, America is America the beautiful. It's no wonder that travel and tourism is such a growth industry. You're just selling the best product in the world. You make it possible for people all over the world to discover America. Foreign visitors may come for the Olympics or a World's Fair, a business conference or just to enjoy our nation's beauty and its heritage. Whatever they do or whenever they do, they come to know our values and vision, our system of government and they can feel the spirit of a good and great country. There's no better way to promote international understanding and goodwill or to explain freedom and democracy than through travel and tourism. When you celebrate National Tourism Week, I hope you'll celebrate your achievements and use the opportunity to highlight what you are doing for America. And now I'm going to sign that proclamation and when I do I'm almost, I'm also recognizing that travel and tourism is a partnership, a partnership of industry, labor, the Congress and the administration and we'll do everything we can to keep it that way. There's no doubt that the golden days of tourism are yet to come. I can't quit without telling you a little story before I signed that about the recent summit at Williamsburg. I was all set, I couldn't wait for my companions, the leaders of the other several states to come there and then when we gather, as we always do, the first meeting is at dinner the night before the conference actually starts and I was waiting until the first moment of silence as we sat down and then I had planned to say to Margaret Thatcher, Margaret, if one of your predecessors had been a little more clever, you would be hosting this gathering. But never try to top a lady. So I said that. The moment of silence came and I said, Margaret, if one of your predecessors had been a little more clever, she said, yes, I know I would have been hosting this gathering.


Five suspects will have to explain to the police what they know about the death of a police sergeant, Joseph Onwaka. The suspected members of the indigenous people of Biafra, I-POP, were arrested over the alleged killing of Onwaka in Imo State. The Commands of Public Relations Officer, Olandi Okoku, says an AK-47 rifle and four other weapons were recovered from the suspects. He says six catchages and 15 rounds of live ammunition were also recovered.


I'm here with Alfonso. He's the creator of Fable. I think he, about eight years ago, he tried to, you know, use F-Shop to do web development, which was kind of one of his passion. And what he found was that symmetry between that was not great. And so that's what kind of led Alfonso to actually create Fable. And there's been tremendous support and community, you know, uptake on Fable. So we always wanted to have him speak at the conference and talk about how he's trying to push the boundaries and making F-Shop even better. So thank you, Alfonso, for joining us today from Japan. And it's great to have you. So I will hand it over to you. Looking forward to your talk. Thanks a lot, Reis, for the interaction. And thanks a lot for the invitation to talk at Functional Go. I'm very happy to be here, even if only virtually. But yeah, it's, I'm living in Asia for two years now. So very, very happy. And also working with sometimes with colleagues from India. So yeah, very happy to be part of this conference. So let's, thanks a lot for the introduction. Let's start. I'll share my screen so we can see. Well, I'm just sharing a screen. Quick reminder, if you have questions, you can use the Q&A section. I'll be watching over it. And if there's anything important, I will let Fonso know about that. We'll try and keep it interactive a little bit as we go along. He likes to not be talking to a screen. So we'll try and keep it interactive and need your help to make that possible. So yeah, I think over to you, Alfonso. Yeah, please do interrupt. Because yes, as I just say, I guess for me and for the other fellow speakers, it's a bit difficult to be talking for a long time just to a screen. So it's great to have some feedback. So any time that you have a question, just please write. And yeah, as if you are so kind to just let me know, we can pause and answer very quickly. So yeah, we are going to talk today about the table and F-sharp. And actually about the next version, which is currently the development of Fable, which we are trying to go one step further, one step beyond from the current F-sharp JavaScript compilation. But let's start very quickly with Risa. She already introduced me, but just three points. We just say I'm originally from Spain, but I'm living in Japan right now. My major in college was linguistics. So I usually say I'm linguistic by heart and a programmer by trade, but that has many, many programmers. I've changed my career and I'm mostly programming now, but I'm very interested in languages. And that's probably one of the reasons that I've been working in open source in our compiler. So mostly I'm an F-sharp developer nowadays. And yeah, on the creator and main maintainer, you can say a table break. I'm going to say also a couple of things of the companies I'm collaborating with at the moment. One is The Metrics, which is doing a great job using cutting-edge permutation technology to produce a rare canon in the night, sorry, that are safe, and effective for health and wellness. But it's always difficult for me to pronounce the word in English. And yeah, if you're interested, please visit their homepage in TheMetrics.com. And also collaborating with Charles Dowell, which is a company that also has their actionist also focusing on Asia. Charles Dowell builds software and systems to drive supply chains in the developing world and in refugee camps. It has launched the world's first one hour grocery delivery system in the world's most densely populated city, which is the DACA. I was going to say close to regular, it's not that close, but yeah, in a global perspective, it's closer. And it's also, Charles Dowell is picked by Y Combinator and the World Bank RAP. If you're interested, you can take Charles Dowell.com, which is their website, if you're interested in the development group, and maybe also joining the team, you can take CharlesDoc.dec. Okay, so Fable is about compiling F-Sharp to JavaScript. So let's talk very briefly about F-Sharp that probably you already know because it was one of the most used functional programming language still and kind of a niche language. But yeah, usually it's known if you're interested in functional programming. In fact, it was normally promoted as the functional first programming language for .NET platform. But nowadays they are changing a bit the promotion and they are not insisting that that match in the functional part. This is in three characteristics. So the first one is that it's robust. So it's a functional programming characteristic because it's aesthetically typed. It has discriminated units which are great to model your domain. And it also has immunity by default as most of the functional programming languages. It's section, so it is also important because it has a type inference. So it means that even if it's strictly typed, you don't have to type the types all the time. The compiler can import them for you most of the time. It also has a terse syntax. So syntax that doesn't get you on your way. You don't need to write brackets most of the time using white spaces now. And it's also, it can be used to write scripts and it has a rebel. So it's very good for prototyping. And it's also a performance language. There's been a big focus on performance in the last years, both on the extra language and the .NET runtime. Actually, in the latest versions of .NET, many times you can match the performance or even be of equivalence on the same terms reaching in a goal or rest, for example. So now let's talk about Fable. What's Fable? Fable is an F-sharp to JavaScript compiler. It's important to mention it's not the only one available for F-sharp. You can also take a web-sharper which is also an F-sharp to JavaScript compiler. It's a compiler that supports most of the F-sharp core library. We say that it's battery charged because of this. And supports part of the .NET base class library. One important thing of .NET is that this has this huge base class library that can do many things and sometimes you don't need external libraries. But yeah, because it's huge, it's become a check-in to support all of it. So this is a goal of Fable. But it supports the things that you need most commonly to write programs. And it also can support Nuket packages. Nuket is the package system that is used for .NET and F-sharp break. But they have to be Fable compatible. Okay. And it can also support JavaScript libraries, for example, from NPM, through bindings, or you can just use dynamic program to just interact with JavaScript. And it has some support for reflection. This is, it's partial, it's not a big support for everything because we also support tree-shaking, which means that the parts of your application that are not being used will be removed from the JavaScript bundle. This is very important because in JavaScript we want to deploy as less code as possible. So it's the, or websites load fast. But still, it's interesting because you can, let's see here. Okay. So we have, yeah, we have press like this one, which is Fable Remotin, which allows you through the use of reflection in Fable and the .NET F-sharp servers, you can just generate it automatically and it's API out of types. Okay. Let's go back to the presentation. And yeah, I told this already. It's been eight years since the first release. I had to check it out for the, for the brand to talk. And I was a bit surprised because time really flies. And there are multiple pricing prices. I don't know all of them, but I know that there are many companies that are using it for projects that are doing real work and their real work. One thing that I like to stress is the Fable philosophy. This because when, yeah, actually eight years ago, it was very popular to have many languages compiled to JavaScript because JavaScript was thought to be not a very good language. This has changed. JavaScript is quite powerful now. It's evolved very quickly. And we have TypeScript, which is like a JavaScript with types. It's to mean static types. So this is not the case anymore, but yeah, back in the, even back in the time, the Fable wasn't born to, to, to just because thinking that the JavaScript was a bad language that had to be hidden from the developers. Actually, Fable was born out of love of F-sharp, both F-sharp and the JavaScript ecosystem and community. So Fable, what it tries to do is make F-sharp a first class citizen of the target platform, JavaScript in this case. And we try to do that by aiming for good interop with native code and tooling, like for example, tools that are widely used by the JavaScript community like a webpack. And we also try to find a balance between the F-sharp semantics and having minimal overhead. And we say that we don't want to bundle a full runtime. So sometimes if we have to make a sacrifice, some things in F-sharp or .NET runtime, some special behavior that will require to wrap things. We try to avoid that. But in general, I think we, after many years and many attempts, I think we have a good balance right now. Talking a bit about the Fable history, what has happened in these eight years. So first of all, I'd like to mention about PanScript, which was another F-sharp JavaScript compiler that I've seen before. It had the best name ever. PanScript used to use something that's a feature of F-sharp's code quotations. But at one point, F-sharp compiler service, which is F-sharp compiler used as a library, exposed the internal AST, where AST stands for Apsar Syndex Tree. So this was taken by Mia as an opportunity to write a new compiler that will use the F-sharp compiler directly to transform the F-sharp AST into JavaScript AST. We had a Fable 1, the first version used a Babel. Babel was a JavaScript compiler. It was translating modern JavaScript to old JavaScript because at the time, not many browsers could support the new JavaScript feature. So this was very needed. So this was what Fable 1 was using. You can see, let's have a very good look here. Let's imagine that we have... So imagine that all of these circles, they are ASTs. So we have... So this is the code, and F-sharp compiler is going to translate it into F-sharp AST. So this means the parsing and invalidating that the code is valid. And then we can do the same with Babel. Babel will also take it that the code is valid, but it doesn't make us very strict checking because there's no static typing in JavaScript. But it was also printing the final code. So Fable was acting here. So it was translating the AST into Fable AST. Why do we have a Fable AST? This is because the F-sharp AST is kind of exposed, but it's not actually possible to produce the F-sharp AST. It's only possible to consume. So it means that if we want to make some transformation and create new AST, we have to have our own AST. And yeah, this is something that Fable is using and then compiles to JavaScript and then sends this to Babel. This happened in Fable 1. In Fable 2, what we had is that we had an internal step. Before it was more or less like a direct, but now we had an internal step here to make some transformations. So this was helpful to focus on Fable AST itself. And in Babel 3, what we did is remove this Babel dependency. So basically Fable could just bring the JavaScript code directly. And now what's going to happen in Fable 4? What are we trying to do now? So what we are trying to do is because we have this work zone. So we have the F-sharp AST, the Fable AST. We have a recent transformation here. So we thought, what if we just add new steps and we can compile it to multiple languages? So this is what we are trying to do with Fable 4. And let's see if we can manage to do that. So as we talk, we will do an intermediate step. And we have Fable 3. And Fable 4 is adding new target languages. So Snake Island is the code name for the new Fable. And we are going to explain a bit how the new Fable appeared. Actually, I'm very happy about that because it was mainly driven by the community. So it was not driven by me. It was the community that started to add these new targets. And they made some PRs. So we request the Fable code to the Fable repository. So we decided to try to be more open to these new targets. And we are now trying to change a bit the architecture to make it easier to target other languages. So it started with a Japanese person. And he was creating a board game. We are talking about the physical board game here. But he also wrote an online version using F-SAR. The game is called Crazy Pharmace. You can Google it. And this website, which is called Board Game Arena, which offered him to include the game in their website so that he could reach weather aliens. Because the server only supported PHP. So what did he do? He wrote people, which is an F-SAR PHP compiler based on Fable, to compile his code to PHP. I think it's quite interesting that he found it was easier to create a compiler just than rewriting the whole bread in PHP. But actually, yes, F-SAR, especially using these community unions, and connecting other features, makes writing a compiler actually quite fun. So they later sent the PR team to write this PHP compilation into Fable. And maybe we can say that this was how the new Fable 4 was born, which I insist is still in development. And then we also have another contributor, sorry, I forgot to mention that if you're interested in Japanese and some work, you can take his GitHub profile, which is thinking before coding. Okay. And yeah, and we have Dick Bradley, which is also an F-SAR, and a Fable contributor. He's the author of the AsyncRx library. And he's also an expert Python developer. And he believes that F-SAR can help make a better Python. And actually, he wrote a Python library, which was inspired by F-SAR. It's called Expression, and this library was meant to enable pragmatic functional programming with Python. But still, there were some things in the Python language that made the functional programming difficult to apply to. So now he tried to compile directly F-SAR to Python using Fable. And this is very interesting because, as you know, Python is the most widely used functional programming in the world. It's a functional programming language in the world. And there are many tools and many possibilities for Python developers. And it's great that just by compiling to Python, these possibilities are also open to F-SAR programming. So I probably all know about these Jupyter notebooks for data science, for example. The Python interactive, which is like a rebel, but it's very, very advanced and very interesting for prototyping. And we can also do some IoT with BBC macros, for example. And it's actually, as all the other targets still in development, but it's quite advanced. And we have indeed, there's an OSP that is already using, which is called type BNF. We can check it here. So yeah, you can check type BNF, which is a break to take errors when parsing languages using a BNF grower, okay? So I think now they are compiling to JavaScript because some issues, but yeah, this break used to be compiling to Python, using paywall Python. And then we have F-SAR to RAS as well. This is also in the making. This is responsible by NK, which is a long time F-SAR and paywall mysterious contributor. I say mysterious because nobody know the entity of NK. We only know the GitHub profile, which is NK. NK also is the one who enabled the F-SAR compiler and paywall search compilation, which enabled the Fable repo. We are going to have a look at this right now because it was necessary to modify, strip some parts of the F-SAR compiler to make it possible to be compilable by Fable. And also, NK maintains an F-SAR compiler for, this being used to improve the incremental compilation for paywall. And NK starts some work to compile F-SAR to RAS code through Fable. And what can we have with RAS code? Actually, the one thing that you'll think first is that this can improve the performance. It probably is true, but we made some tests. Actually, because the new .NET 6 is quite fast. Actually, .NET can run sometimes as fast as RAS, but the most important thing is that you're going to create, you're going to generate binary, native binaries that are much smaller than the .NET binaries because there are the binaries that need to include the runtime. So they tend to be quite big if you need to make some deployment, for example, to machine in the cloud that doesn't have .NET installed. So yeah, this is quite a good alternative. Also, it enables WebAssembly completion using a Wasmap app, which is a project to compile RAS code to WebAssembly. So this is interesting because we compile F-SAR to RAS and then RAS to WebAssembly. Actually, there's already a project to put .NET in WebAssembly using this called Blazor. And it's a good project. And you can use it with F-SAR through Bolero. But yeah, the thing is that it's also, again, it puts the whole .NET runtime. So it's kind of big. So with this method, you're going to have, it's much lighter. We have 20 minutes in. 20 minutes, perfect. Okay, so yeah, this is actually the last one for now of the language we are trying to include for fail for, which is Dart. Dart probably wasn't a very known language, but then Google developed the Fluture, which is gaining traction at the most comprehensive cross-platform app development solution. And Fluture currently only supports Dart. So yeah, by using F-SAR to Dart, we could make it possible to develop a Fluture app in Fable directly. And I have to say that this mobile and desktop development is already possible with F-SAR using, for example, React Native with Fable, or there are also .NET solutions like Samarin, malware, and Avalonia UI. But I still think that Fluture, everybody, most of the developers that have tried Fluture, they really like it. So I think it's very interesting to be able to write F-SAR apps with it. And the thing is that Dart is a language similar to C-Sharp and .NET. So many of the challenges to compile F-SAR to this kind of language have already been met. So I think it's something doable, but there are still many challenges left. So it's not that easy, but yeah, we are trying to make some progress. So let's, before starting then, checking the last slides, let's take some demos. So first, I talk about the repo. So you can try this online. So this is the Fable repo. That's actually, this is the F-SAR compiler, which is being compiled to JavaScript, and it's put there. So there's no server here. This host has the static web page in the GitHub. So there is no server doing anything here. You can, let's see for example, this is an example from Thomas Pettschik, which is creating a spreadsheet that you can use. Like you put right here, right here, and you say, okay, I want to add B3 plus B4. And this is going to tell you. So it's a mini Excel in your browser and it's done with less than, less than 500 lines of code. And yeah, using the UI and also the logic. And yeah, you can see some of the features of F-SAR. So very common to the functional programming languages. So we have this pattern matching. We have a current function. So we have the type inference because as you can see here, all the types, you don't have to write them. They are automatically impaired by a compiler. And again, this compiler, this actually is operating in the browser. It's not sending anything to the server. We have some custom operators here. So yeah, I'm not going to go too deep in the features of F-SAR, but if you're interested, you can go to the repo and you have a tool F-SAR here that you have some of the main features and some examples that you can try. So we talk about this RAS compilation. So I'm going to show you this example. Sorry, here. This ray tracer example. Okay, which is doing some creating some scene using some geometric figures. And then using this ray tracer algorithm to render the scene. So here we are going to make it a bit bigger. We're going to make it 1,024 times 1,024. Compat it again. We take a bit longer, so over two seconds, because it's actually very CPU intensive. So this code that is, yeah, it's quite intensive. So you can see that it takes more than two seconds. It's not trivial time. So let's go to... So what we see here actually is the same example, but this is going to be translated, compiled to RAS, and then using the Wasma pack, it's going to be compiled to WebAssembly. So you can see this ray is running on local server. You can see here that this actually is also 1,024, but it's reduced to the half the size, so you can have more detail. And as you can see here, it's faster. Because it's faster, you can do things like, for example, just running a small animation, and we are rendering it in different angles, because we can have it much faster, but yeah, it's pressable, so it's always good to have to be rendered things. Actually, I can get the better times here, but because right now my computer is busy streaming this video, it's taking a bit longer. But actually, there's also an example here. Oops, no, sorry. There's also another example here. This is equivalent to the example we saw in the rebel, but this is done with... That's one here. This was done with a version of TypeScript that was in the TypeScript Playground. So, yeah, we still have this version. So, as you can see, it's actually... This one is taking longer than... You see, it's almost four seconds, and we have the favorable version, that's a bit more than two seconds, and then the REST version, that actually, if we can picture, it would have more resources, it would be close to one second. So, yeah, but by using Fsharp and Fable, we can get this performance basically with the same code. If you go to the code here, this one is the code base in the TypeScript sample. It's actually very, very, very similar. If we take this, this is the code generated by Fable. You can take also in the Fable repo. I just copy it from there. So, you can see the code that is generated here. If you check it out, it's very, very, very close. But still, it's a separate example, you can see. So, we have this minus in Fsharp. We can have this custom operator, so we can use this, like, multiplies normal integers. But still, this faster, why? It's difficult to say because it's the JavaScript engines, they have some heuristics. It's not easy to say, to know what is actually causing the optimization. But one important thing is that because the methods in Fsharp and Fable, they are being compiled as just separate functions instead of static or instance members of a class. These are great advantages for a dynamic language like JavaScript, because in JavaScript, the runtime always have to check that the prototype actually has this method. But when you have a model function, this function can be statically linked, and this is much easier for the engines to optimize. And you can see here, the code is basically the same, and this is the generated RAS code. It's not so clean because it's automatically being generated, but yeah, as you can see, it's many lines. So we have, yeah, out of around 200 lines of Fsharp, we can generate this 800 lines of RAS code. So yeah, it's much easier to do it in Fsharp and let Fable do the boilerplate for you. Let's check. Let's close this one. So we just saw Fable compiling to JavaScript and then compiling to RAS and then compiling to WebAssembly using Fable. We are going to check the Python compilation. Ten minute check. Okay, thanks. So this Fsharp script, which was being done by Steph and Forgman, and it has been used to solve Sudokus. So if you know Sudokus, this was a very popular page time. And what's about the generating, actually if you go, it's not in the latest repo, but you can go to Fable repo, the old repo too, which is the old repo. We still have the example here. And you can see here's the same code plus the UI. So you can have this here. And you can just automatically solve it, okay? So this is the same code but in a script. And this is something that we are also trying for Fable for this region compilation, which is instead of just overwriting the whole file, we just put the code in a special region of the code. This makes it very easy to mix the generated Python code with a custom Python code in the same file. And this is good, for example, when you are using the Python interactive. And for example, here in Visual Studio Code, we can use these comments to generate cells. So I'm going to use... So as you can see, this value here, this puzzle, it's automatically available in the Python interactive. And we can just inspect the values and we have here. And we can even use pandas. If you know it, it's a very popular Python library for data science. You can use because this translates directly to Python types. We can very easily convert pandas here. So we have this and even also we can have the solution. So again, this is the get first solution here. It's converted into Python. Just in this case, we are changing the case to a snake case, which is what Python understands. So we can do the same here. So with this, for example, we can just very easily certify that the solution is right because it sums all the rows. They sum 45, which is what we expect to probably solve. And we can also transpose this and see the result is the same. And because the pandas data frames, they allow you to easily get some subgrid. We know that the Python subgrids, three times three, they should sum also 45. And we see that they do. And now we can get any subgrid, three times three. And yeah, there was some 45, so we can certify that the solution is valid here. Okay. And the last one I want to show you is the future completion. Okay, so as you can see here, right now it's only available for very, very simple demos like this one, but yes, it's a great first step. And as you can see, this is the Elmys model of writing UI apps that actually is very popular in fable apps. And here in this case, this is the simple sample with this just a counter and we just have an update function, and a model, so and a message. So when we send a message, we just have a mutual function here, the update function that is going to update the model. And with this, start the compiler. We have, okay, we have it here. Okay, so as you can see here, this Dart file is empty, but this server, again, is going to be slower because my CPU is a bit busy at the moment. I should close a few things. So it started already, it's going to generate the code, the code is generated, so then we can compile this. We can let the plotter kick in and generate the Android application for us. You can see here, this is going to just create a pattern that dispatches when it's being clicked. It's going to dispatch the increment message and it's going to just add one to the model. I want to also, the last slides are about the motivation to have this multi-language population. So yeah, basically it's just, we can say that the main motivation, okay, it's also, let's take it very quickly. So yeah, it's on here, we can expect the, everything is very good tooling for Flutter. So we can just click as you can see here, this is going to increase. If we change, if we, for example, say, you're going to decrement, decrement, and hold reload. Now when we push the button, it's going backwards. And may we say, okay, increment that, we, plus 10 every time. So else, we go to hold reload. Okay, so again, now it's just incrementing by 10. So we have this nice piece of Flutter and hold reloading with Fable, an Fsharp Fable app. This is quite nice. So yeah, it has to finish very quickly. So why compatible language? So, because we can, because this is actually one of the reasons to do many open source break, because we can, actually, because we want to know, we can, we can, right? So we saw an opportunity, the community saw an opportunity and tried to that. Actually, the Fsharp community always tries to expand Fsharp on .NET because, yeah, Fsharp developers usually develop a language and they want to make it available in other places, not only in .NET. And I like to think of a language as a platform. So, yeah, as we saw, JavaScript is their web platform. Rust is becoming a system platform. Also, it's in defined with a web assembly platform as well. Python is very good for data science, for example, and machine learning. So, yeah, it's, when you enter a language, you enter, you get more facilities and also communities stand together around the language. So, internally, a new language is also entering a new community. So, maybe people say that we should use the best tool for the job and this absolutely right. But the problem is that it's not trivial to transition to another ecosystem. We have the new language, we have new tooling, we have new ideas, tooling, tooling. I wrote here, I said, yeah, many, many new tools. And sometimes learning the basics of programming language is easy, but mastering is hard. This is because there are many nuances in the language that are not in the syntax directly. You need to learn how to write idiomatic code. You need to learn different APIs to do the same things. For example, for a regular expression, I love regular expressions, but every time that you learn a new language, you have to learn how to do the same things in different ways. And you go back to other languages and you have to relearn again. So, it's a bit crazy. So, yeah, I think it's good to have an opportunity to write some cross-platform code. So, the same way that Flutter is a way to write the cross-platform apps, because being able to cross-language, do the cross-language completion can help lower the barriers to entry. And I think it's totally fine. If it fails, for example, it's just a way to help developers to transition to a new ecosystem. I know of several cases of developers that they work.net and absorb developers, and they try fable, and then they go out involved in the front-end development and, yeah, with JavaScript and TypeScript. And at one point, they decide, okay, I want to do things directly in TypeScript or JavaScript with the JavaScript tooling. I think this is totally fine. I'm very happy that fable helped them to make this step. It's not that fable tells you that you need to do everything in Fsharp, because Fsharp is the best language in the world. I think Fsharp has some good things, and also, maybe not so good things, but, yeah, when it becomes your comfort zone, it's good to be able to use this comfort zone to compile to and enter other areas. So, what I want to say that the fable philosophy is to try to build bridges, but don't impose anything on anybody. I think it's a way to learn from others, because if you cannot leave your ecosystem, you won't learn from anybody else. But if you can leave, even if it's in this way that's compiled, it's an opportunity to learn, it's an opportunity to say true to yourself. If you like this way of calling, you can still do it, even if you try a new language. That's all from my side. Thanks, big thank you. If you're interested, you can check the fable.io site. If you're on Twitter, you can follow Fable compiler or Alfonso GC . Thanks, everybody. I know if there are questions. Thanks Alfonso. That was great. Very interesting demos, I must say. So thank you for those. I know we ran out of time, but there is one quick question from Manoj. He's basically saying, very excited for fable 4. When is it coming out? Yeah, that's the question. So yeah, the thing is that it's an open source browser. It depends on the contributors. So it's a bit good and bad things. It's a bit out of my hand. So I'm taking care of that compilation, but the RAS, Python and PHP, there are different contributors. So yeah, it depends on their time. So I'm going to make it come out this year. And at least, these are not for version, but some alpha beta version in the next couple of months. But yeah, hopefully we can have something this year. And I see there's another question. All the business is coming out. Yeah, there's also a tricky question. We have something for TypeScript bindings to fsharp. It's not always easy because the type systems are different. So we have a tool that is called TS2fable. Yeah, there are some talks about Dart because there are also some tools for Dart code introspection in Dart. So maybe we could use that. It's not always super easy, but I already prayed we have some way of compiling of have some automatic banding generation in TypeScript at the moment. TypeScript to fsharp it's kind of semi-automatic. So we use the tool to generate the bulk of the business and then we usually recognize some minor tweaking. But for example, you have fable.browser which is a library to provide your bindings to the browser APIs and there are other parades maintained by the community so to do this kind of there are key apps if you take the Twitter fable.compiler account he is publishing some bindings recently. Sometimes if there is an interesting JavaScript library one of the users in the community they create some bindings so you can use it also in a more idiomatic fsharp way. So for example, we have this Feliz API from Zahid Zaidayakis a very big contributor of the fable community that is used to write react applications using fable. I think we slightly overshot the time but again thanks a lot for the wonderful introduction to fable and all its great demos so I'm sure people will be excited to hopefully contribute but at least start using some of the cool features that you have. I'll certainly be looking to check out the website that you talked about.