All right so yesterday we all sort of heard about and learned about the V Taiwan process which is how citizens and governments collaboratively identify issues to solve the society and today Feng who's leading today's workshop will delve into methods and design tools to actually solve identified issues collaboratively across stakeholders. A couple of housekeeping things, bathrooms on all sides of you, Wi-Fi password is their prime produce one and PPNY is the network especially for those who are here today for the first time. Welcome. Also thank you to our sponsors, composites collective, awesome foundation, Serapis and Speeda NYC, American Assembly, ThoughtWorks, personal democracy media that help us get all of the VR equipment we'll be using tonight. All right and Orbital who hosts us week after week after week. We'll do a quick exercise. Yeah we're gonna do a quick morning exercise to wake up our brains today. Just a show of hands. How many people were not here yesterday? Okay three of you. Cool so what I would suggest for this exercise since you weren't here is you can kind of roam around and observe what people are writing but for those that were here we're gonna do a silent mind mapping exercise. What's gonna happen is you're gonna pair off into groups of three about three or two to three. You can come grab a flip chart and station yourselves around and you're going to for about five minutes just write out and draw everything or anything that you remember from yesterday's V Taiwan training and the key is that it's one silent and ideally everyone in that group has a marker everyone has a marker and is drawing and if you can see if you can start connecting the thoughts that your group is coming up with. Is everyone aware of what a mind map is or looks like? Would anyone like a demonstration of what a mind map is or looks like? Okay great let me actually I'm gonna come back here to this board so the mind map is a visualization tool of ideas so if yesterday was V Taiwan and let's say I might mind map this I might start by putting V Taiwan in the center and then I might say okay I remember there four stages I remember Orid I remember Polis and you don't ideally you can start connecting them but also just let your brain put the ideas down right if you are more of a visual person maybe you'll draw instead of write and we'll get like a fun combination of just whatever you remember from yesterday. So nice moment to reflect. Questions? There's flip charts up here so if you want to come grab a flip chart and we've got markers there's also markers on your table and you don't you can pair off into different groups you can use this extra table over here if they're computers on the tables maybe we can move them down to the chairs and just pair off in groups of three or two here you might you can have a clean one that doesn't have an icebreaker at the top doesn't have to be perfect find some space if you want big markers there's also sharpies on your table got markers team of three any any group of people just find three people okay good there's one up there there's a good one you can put them up on them on the walls just make sure everyone is settled okay too many people here how about another sheet here you go wait wait wait don't start yet please gonna all start at the same time and end at the same time okay so we've got that group this group this group are we good here okay everyone's got markers need some markers here you go hey everyone's got a marker right everyone's got your group everyone's got paper so I'm gonna start the timer we've got five minutes in silence all right go for it and ideally you can all kind of work at once so give space to people let them come in folks hey everyone please this is a silent mind mapping exercise silent silence so just start drawing connect what you can but everyone can work at once just about 30 seconds left okay pens and markers down so if you can bring your charts over this way and we can put them on the back sides of these cardboard things you can stick them up and also there's those two walls over there and then once they're all up we'll just take a few minutes to walk around and take a look at other people's charts and see what they remembered maybe there's something that you didn't remember want to bring yours over here yeah we can there's space on these two doors also here's Stephanie you want to put that one over here there we go we can put that one over here all right and then just take a few minutes to take a look at notice if there's any connections that someone else made that you didn't or something that you might have forgotten and as you finish up and you feel that you've gotten to take a look at everything please come on back and please notice if you have what color sticker you have and make sure that you are correctly in your group so if you haven't noticed already you have a little color on your name tags and they match to the little dots in the right of these issue sheets pink group orange group and green group great thank you you don't have to but I'll invite an open space on the floor if anyone wants to share any reflections on the exercise of the process or yesterday before we move on yes I'm very thankful for the opportunity for y'all to be here so thank you very much I'm very one thing that I haven't seen so far is kind of like a listing of the technical tool well kind of like the the technology requirements that you've used if there is any way that that could be spelled out you know like number of iPads yeah stuff like that but I just want to say thank you anyone else okay thank you very much everyone hi before I hand it over to fun if you haven't noticed especially for those of you who are here for the first time today we have jolly who's going to record this whole thing so thank you to jolly thank you to internet society and I hoping you don't have problems with being recorded good morning everyone my name is fun and I'm a server design consultant at the public digital innovation space as known as PDS and today we're going to do the whole day workshop including trainings and simulation of the PL network and collaboration workshop and before I go into the details of the PL network and the collaboration workshop I would like to share with you some of the PDS culture before but just before that make sure that you got all the workshop materials there is a hyperlink where you can get all of all of the hack folders and it includes slides and the workshop materials so I would like to share with you about PDS culture and value that correspond to the PL network and collaboration workshops this picture represents the working culture embedded in our team and something we like to develop within the severe servants and to the wider public the notion of the small impact and can eventually transform into significant change and here you can see we've did sorry that's the presenter is not the projector is not clear but you will be able to see that on your laptop if you have one we're on your phone but I was zooming so that you can see it better there are four five values that we came out in the workshop within the team last year and the top priority of the value that we have is to build the trust between citizens and the government and the second one is to cultivate the civil society organizations and citizens by raising awareness on public issues and enhancing their capability to participate in public affairs in order to make this happen is important to ease severe servants workflow also it's important for us to promote the value of digital services and then also encourage severe servants to be innovative and not afraid of failure and all these respond to the four open government pillars that we embrace so I will give you a brief introduction of here the history of PL network we hope to change the culture within the government and to cut across the silos and bureaucracies groups from different ministries of severe service were trained to tackle issues and policies that we were raised by the citizen and serious servants on the Taiwanese e-pedition website called join which Tiffany will talk about this later on in the afternoon however there was a clear need to have a fixed group of serious servants trying to better facilitate communication and collaboration within and across the 31 ministries since October 1st in 2016 when Audrey town became the digital minister she started PDs and called the mini the middle to senior civil servants who are familiar with planning communication digital tools to be part of the fixed group we later called this group the participation officers network and this is the quote that because I joined PDF a few days before and I hear from this about this core from PM a Cheney and I really like this one and you'll never get it you'll never change things by fighting the existing reality to change something build new model that makes the existing model obsolete and this is this respond to the multi-stakeholder governance system that we are building which I will explain this more later on and I think it's really important to embrace failure failure should be allowed and be part of our culture we try we may success and we may fail and if we fail then we learn and I'm going to share with you two cases case studies that we did and overall I think we've done around 30 35 36 collaboration workshops so far in the past two years and the first case study that I'm going to share with you is the online income tax system redesign the online income tax system takes a form of a website that allows taxpayers to pay report their income and gate gate takes rebate and every month participation officers they bring topics they feel needed to be discussed to the monthly meeting and then they will do a vote on what's meeting what kind of topic that we are going to discuss further in the following months and this is part of the agenda setting stage and this is the page of the e-photogen website it's actually not a petition that a put a petitioner signed the previous the petitioner is a UX UI designer that find this income tax online tax system really difficult to use so she opened a forum on the e-photogen website and hoping to get more feedback from other users and then maybe he can turn those feedbacks into the proposal that he is going to do on the e-photogen website but before that the PO already act on this so it doesn't he didn't actually start the petition and the government already respond to that so when the PO's saw this forum and then he started to raise this issue and then also bring it on to the table as I mentioned and Audrey also really liked this idea to include this issue in the voting pool so then everyone is really looking forward to tackle this issue but before before we tackle this issue it we really need to understand why people are feeling this this website so difficult to use so we really need to identify who are involved within the whole thing not just about the end users but also who are the policymakers who deliver this service and a lot more so these are the people that we identified before we actually started the workshop and it's really important to have diverse groups because diversity leads to holistic view and we don't really want to listen the the majority opinions but we look for diversity so there are end users petitioners designers IT strategist frontline staff and also a lot of serious events from different department and this is a closer look at the workshop that we do live streaming on 360 camera also a general camera and so you so people online who cannot participate the workshop they can also have a say and understand the whole process this is the first workshop that we conducted and the end of this workshop is to really understand people's journey and what they find difficult in each stage because people might come into the workshop and started to complain a lot of different things but it's really important to understand where the problems occur and who can actually fix it so we did a service blueprint and the user journey to identify those things but it is not complete because those people who already done the the tax paying they they talk about this after their experience but we haven't actually looked through how people how people did the whole process so we we ask the PO's and also those severe servants within different departments to conduct usability testing process I know is intimidating like asking severe servants to do usability testing but it's not about like training them to be able to do a proper usability testing it's more about empowering them to really understand the difficulties that happens between different users and having the mindset to engage with those people and build the service or policy based on human needs so then we identify different issues then we aggregated all of the information and see inside them and bring them to the next workshop and after a few following this is actually this is the first one the first workshop after the the the first one so sorry this is the second one and those people that I showed you before the diverse stakeholders they actually joined the workshop and co-create the the solutions so I mentioned that during the first workshop we get people's feelings and the problems that they faced and also after the usability testing we gather more information and then we show them actually one page by page about what are the difficulties during the process and it's not just about the text-paying process online it's also about how do they prepare to pay the tax and also what happened after they paid the tax online so it's the whole journey we need to think about that holistically so during the the second workshop we understand and identify the the problems and then we started the very initial co-creation about just imagining what it can be like and the second one we because we gather like different ideas but ideas are ideas we need to be clear if these ideas are actually correspond and can really respond to the problems that we identified so on the second workshop we facilitate all the different stakeholders to do the prototype on what they want in the future paying at tax-paying system and that something really interesting strike that struck me is the CVS servants they really understand how different things work so for example the people from taxation department they know the language they use and they because they they make the laws and everything so but that's also the the other problem that the end user find those languages that the government use is really difficult for them to understand that's why the process that's the only reason why the process is so difficult for them so it's not just about the interface and the process language is also very important and we if we don't include those voices from the end user we will never know that the people from the taxation department they actually also have a role in this so it's really important for people to understand their role and to identify what they can do in the different workshops and because we have the third workshop that allow people to do the prototype then we need to have this the fourth workshop that allows people to actually envision what it looks like in the future so people can test it and make sure it works before we launch the website so we include we included more designers within the process for them to help illustrate the the interface that the people like and also the process and after that we hand this over to the outsourced company there they were actually in the in a workshop so they can tell participants about their difficulties during the workshop so we don't have something that is ready for the outsourced company to code and then they realize that they cannot do anything about it so also as company was also in being involved in the process and then we have a new website in this main this year and we got lots of positive feedback from the users saying that is it's easier for them and it's quicker for them to finish the text pain process so the main the main change of this this service is I think cultural change comes to the first because the CVS servants that we work with they understand the user more and they know how they can provide a public service better during this process so they include more of this kind of thinking and what they learned during the workshops and then turn that into the RFP the request for proposal for the next year so they included more this kind of thinking and also the the digital the digital online text pain system the process is clear it's step by step and people will be able to see the real time calculation so by the time that they're filling their information they know why they're paying this much tax during the process also there is a guide before they do the they they started paying text online because they are four different portals for them to to be able to get into the system and sometimes they don't know what they have to prepare do they need to have a car reader what car do they have to have the health card or some other information that they have to be that that have to have ready a hand so we also tell them that these are the things that you have to prepare before you start and then so they don't have to go back to the start to find their cars or car reader so I think the whole process broaden the horizon of CVS participation and opportunities for collaboration across the government and pure network and multi-stakeholder collaboration workshop created alternatives for civic participation and opportunities for collaborate across the government people have another option to have a say apart from voting protesting on the street creating an active discussion on the internet which is a very common social phenomenon in Taiwan and the case study the second case to see that I'm going to share with you is the wildlife conservation in Pung Hu and the PO of this topic is actually here and Patricia yeah so she will actually share with you some of her experience that are my perspective so the Pung Hu is is an island just nearby the South East of Taiwan and I can show you the area so Taiwan is over there and this is Pung Hu and there are a few islands around that area and there is a particular sea area that people were talking about should they should they stop the fishermen's fishing behavior around that area and this is a contradiction between so many different industries between Fisher Fisher industry Fisher industry environmental production groups and the tourist industry so we also include different stakeholders in the workshop is even more than the one that I showed you before because they are three different ministries involved and the severe servants from Council for Agriculture Ministry of Interior and actually more than that Coast Guard Administration Ministry of Transport and Ministry of Finance and also we includes lots of we lots of chief of villages petitioners and local authorities and there are also Fishermen's Association environmental protection groups tourism industry groups and also us and because it's a very remote area with a suburban area so not everyone is actually able to use Slido we include Slido in our meetings just to let people to have better chance to to have a say so we also provide them some notes that they can write it on and pass on to the facilitators which I will show you later and what I want to address more on this case study is about listening to the people we had a trip before the workshop to actually get in touch to those stakeholders we were on this boat I don't know if the photo it will show but it's like a very dramatic trip it the ship goes down or up and down up and down and and then we were actually in still interviewing people when we won the boat so we interviewed the the chief of the villages and we observe the the areas and also talk to more of it chief of villagers and then just one day before the workshop we try to gather as many as feedback and their views from different stakeholders like I showed earlier and more discussing with different with PO's and the CVS servants from the means jumping interior and the interesting thing of this topic is they are they are protesters outside the the workshop so we decided to have two rooms for for workshop one the first one is the the big room that people are able to see the live dreaming from the second the second room and those people are the MPs and politicians and protesters like those people who really want to have a say they will they will come to this room and Audrey is a company name in the first room and the second room includes the people's from also from diver divers groups so those people who are those groups in the first room they have representative in the second room as well so we were not missing our people's voice but it's just so difficult if we are going to have a work like a meeting that includes 100 to 100 people it's not going to have like it's really difficult to have the outcome that is that is solid enough for us to take further and the digital tool that we use usually during the collaboration workshop is the real-time board which you will get the chance to have a look and work on that later we use the real-time board to do the mind mapping like what you did earlier but we did it in a more structured way that allows us to capture different people's statements and synthesize them and organize them in a sensible order so it makes sure it makes sure that we don't neglect anyone's voice but we also get a chance to reflect on those statements in a more structured way which you will get a chance to work on that later on the data integration topic so this is how the mind mapping will look like and this is the sheet that they were able to make the statement and hand it over to the facilitators so both analog and digital version of having a say and it's very important for us to document everything just like how how it was and how it is on the Vita 1 the version process and this is what they came out their ideas after they identified the problems before so the workshop process includes identifying problems, synthesize the information and also define the problems and then later on they will have to come up with feasible solutions and after that workshop it's really important to be able to capture all of the feedbacks and all of the ideas and then turn it to the next phase which is the policy making process so one of our colleagues helped to turn all of the ideas from the workshop in a more structured way into a format that those policymakers can understand so they can deliver that later on and also we have a hack folder that have all of the process and during before during and after the workshop so people can build their knowledge on that and also avoid talking about the same issue having the same discussion again they can actually build something upon that so there's a question yeah could you please take the microphone so you had talked about the two two meetings that took place yes the one with the stakeholders and the one with the protesters and the protesters also had a representative in the stakeholders one yeah yes so my question is just was all of the input also documented from both from the meeting with the protesters as well yes yeah it's documented do Audrey want to yes and then I will talk about more about the participation officers network oh sorry I think there's one slide missing from Patricia do Patricia I want to add any anything on to that project okay cool so Patricia I will share about this project on her view and her experience on working on this later on so why do we want to have the cross ministerial collaboration group within this the government I think there's one thing it's really important because all of the problems and difficulties that we are facing now doesn't really have a single owner so we cannot say our drunk driving issue is need to count on the Ministry of Justice also Ministry of Wells fair and Ministry of Transportation not so very important because it's not just about making the law even more difficult it's also like how can we prevent this and how can the police act on this better during their day-to-day work so we really cannot work alone we have to work together and that's why their participation officer network is so important to be able to cut crosses silos and pure car bureaucracies within the government so as I mentioned before in the history of the PO network we recruit some passionate civil servants and authorized them fully so we don't force them to do anything and that allows them to be responsible for themselves and and actually do a better job so we also encourage those PO's to be brave and ask for help wherever they need so these are the there are 31 ministries in Taiwan and all of the ministries they have at least one representatives from from their ministry and they are around 60 PO's at this moment and those PO's from this participation officers network and they need to record paraphrase and facilitate the collaboration workshops so they they are not also a network this is not also a network that allows them to to work together across different ministries it's also a network that allows them to serve the citizens better and we would like to make the policy-making process more open transparent participative accountable and inclusive and who but who should be included in the multi-stakeholder hold a collaboration workshop as I mentioned before during the case study we usually identify different people's like policymakers service providers and users experts different organizations that really care about this issue and also maybe corporates that they actually have a role in this topic and the more people participate in shaping the infrastructure that the more they will like to engage and I would like to share with you about the process the old process is that this is the traditional process of policy-making so politicians will work with CVS sevens to generate the policy and they work on the process system maintenance regulation and users usually are the people who get to know about this at the end but it's really difficult for them to change that because some of the laws are already been passing at the parliament and they cannot really do anything about it and if we have a protest we can just postpone it like also yesterday we shared about the sunflower movement and the deal between Taiwan the trade deal between Taiwan and China and that's actually something the same it also being just people just ignore it it's not going to be passed but we cannot do anything about it and we don't really come up with a solution that address the problem that we're having like why do we want to have the trade deal what's the the initial intention to have that we actually don't have an action to respond to the original intention so we want to avoid that because it costs a lot to go through the process and nothing really happened afterwards so we would like to include people different people's voices and views and those users are not just end users they are diverse stakeholders like I mentioned before and we aggregate their point of views and the problems that they're facing their needs and then generate service based on their needs and the problems that they're facing and then develop the system and do the policy check and then work on the regulation and maintain the whole system so when it goes to feedback people will generally happy about it because all of their concerns are already being aggregated in the beginning so in summary we would like to make a gentle impact just like the little water drip it's incremental it's slow by incremental and also doing more doing is more effective than talking so you will actually get the chance to work on the whole process later on multi stakeholder government system is the system that we're building and it creates alternative for a civic participation and so we don't it's it's alternative responding to the traditional democracy such as voting and we would like to embrace evidence so you will get a chance to work a lot on the statements and how you reflect on those statements and how you organize them and turn into something meaningful insightful and you can have a solution based on those insights it's really important so we would like to embrace evidence a lot and the last one is change the culture through empowerment and co-creation so the whole process it's not just the process that we want to solve the problem but it's also a process that helps us to build up the capabilities and we can always learn from each other so because we will have an exercise yeah yes i'll take one question hello um i don't know if this was addressed yesterday but um when you have a p.o from a ministry does that mean that there is already buy-in from the cio or is there ever a case where like the p.o wants to join the process but the cio has not is not bought in yeah i think Audrey can answer this question yeah so in Taiwan every ministry cio is a deputy minister also so it's not like their job is only cio they're also the deputy minister so by having p.o's report to the deputy minister if the deputy minister think it's not a good idea to engage in multi-stayholder conversation uh usually they do it for political reasons like they will give a full political context of why it's not a good idea and and we do see that also the p.o sometime in the monthly meeting would say that this case although you know the petitioners really want to talk about it is actually the purview of for example another branch of government of the president uh and so on and so our deputy minister thinks it's not the best thing to talk about right now uh case in point is that there was a petition about banning the uh flag of the prc from display in taiwan and um the p.o um may want to talk about it but the deputy ministers of all the relevant agencies think it may not be the best topic for multi-stayholder meeting uh eventually i think that's going to be put into a referendum maybe and i'm just here but but if it is frankly speaking beyond the scope of our usual collaboration which i'm missing okay so i just give a brief introduction of the tools and methods and don't worry about if you don't um being able to understand everything because we will i will also do a short introduction between different exercise so we use design and technology to accelerate those strategies as i mentioned before so i will show you some of the methodologies that we use they're not all of them but they are politically like those uh tools and methods that i'm going to show you are the core uh methodologies and the tools and the methods are that you will be able to see later are just like the the top of the iceberg and thinking and the ways of working is actually the everything that we use we use tools and we use tool to elaborate thinking so thinking and capabilities can be transferred better so actually at the end of today i would like to invite you to actually think about what tools and methods you can build in your work it's not just about there is one set of tools and methodologies that you use you can actually turn into those things that we want to demonstrate and into something that is used for for your day-to-day life and work this is the double diamond program that double diamond um that we that we use just to it's a framework for for different processes so it's an overarching process and it gives people a good idea about where they are and what they can do at different stages so the stages that we uh include will be discover define develop and deliver and the lines the why the lines goes up and down like it's because it's um divergent and convergent divergent and convergent so when you do uh when you're at the discovery stage you will be able to get as many information as you want and then you take the time to synthesize the information and define the problems and then develop is like you get a chance to come up with as many ideas as you can and during the delivery stage you have to synthesize and see what's working and what's not working and then you deliver a solution and it's it's actually not a perfect framework like in the real in a real life we won't have only two diamonds we will have something like like this so you will have to do a little bit of discovery and then maybe synthesize the information a little bit and then do more discovery and maybe have some ideation but you feel like the idea is not really responding to the problem so you may need to identify interview more people and do more research so the process is iterative and you can create your own process based on the the framework and this uh this slides give you this diagram gives you more information about what can be included what can be included at different stages so like um this one like mapping who's involved is like the stakeholder mapping that we can do that we we are also actually doing um in the first exercise and then we're not including this method over here in today's workshop it's good for you to know that um it's also very important to do interview and shadow people in a good way like to understand their behavior and their difficulties and then also during this process we get the chance to identify problems and this part will be included in their exercise tool and their exercise three will be about um developing ideas and then after developing ideas we need to get a chance to reflect on those ideas and how does these ideas respond to the problems that we identified earlier and we're not including these three later on but it's also good to know that we need to get feedback from different stakeholders also we need to refine the business model like how does this going to work and we also need to know how we measure the impact before we deliver it so uh it's we we can use that uh outcome to prove the service or policy later on so during the discover and define stage we will use the first tool called issue mapping instruction and this is a tool that allows you to put different um statements um and even not statements like different research piece into this format so you get the chance to reflect on different uh different issues and stakeholders and what you are going to do later on so let's take a closer look um before before we actually work on a topic it's really important to understand what are the problems are and also what are the existing solutions are so we map out like for example there's one problem statement and maybe somebody talk about the solutions here so we have to map it in this way and when we have more and more problem descriptions we have to start categorizing them so it doesn't like we can handle those information better but it's really important to have uncertainties here because sometimes when we are doing deliberation or when we are doing literature reviews there are always statements that is not not clear for us and during the deliberation we sometimes have the statements that some somebody agree that is a problem and somebody say no it's not problem it's a phenomenon so there are uncertainties that we have to discuss more and the reason why we separate those informations in this way is because it allows us to be able to reflect on different statements properly and also the the second part is identifying stakeholders so these these are actually connected together if there is a problem statement that's being addressed you have to also identify who addressed that is that an MP is that an end user is a policy maker and when you have more and more statements during the deliberation or the research stage you can identify more and more stakeholders so these two are actually you have to work on these two together so you can see if there is anyone that is missing during the the process and the last one is about actions so what are the current plans what are the future plans is there any resources that we can use so we are not actually going to fill this form today but we have an exercise that can take you through this process and this is the the form that we provide serious servants during the research stage before they do the workshop so this allows them to really have a whole picture about what this issue is so they are not going to the workshop and start listening to people in a non-structured way we actually need to be prepared so we can act better on that and we are not wasting people's times okay so during the that is a tool that helps people to put in their research data and being able to define the problems but during the discovery stage there are more tools that allows people to to identify problems and needs so there are three different tools that I just mentioned that correspond to the tables that I mentioned earlier so we will work on these tools later on and there's an instruction of how those tools that we can use later then in the defined stage we have a tool called challenge statement and this is a very important part during the process because when we collect all of the information different statements problem statements or solution statements we need to be able to define them have a challenge statement is the statement that allows us to aggregate what we've learned during the discovery stage and that is the statement should be open enough for us to be able to brainstorm as many ideas as we can so the statement I will mention about this later on this is just have a look just let you to have a look how the tools look like and during the development stage we have also another tool called idea development stage idea development sheet on the back of the room that you will get a chance to putting the problems that you identified earlier and then also putting the challenge statements that you have so it gives you a chance to think about possible solutions and resources you may have and then it's something really important over here these columns you can put in the information about risk and failures risk and barriers sorry because ideas is not all of the ideas is not perfect and you need to be able to identify what can be the risk if you deliver that idea so it gives us the room that we don't deliver something that can cause more problem and when you can get a chance to find the solutions that can respond to the risk then maybe that idea is deliverable and also it's important to identify who can deliver those ideas so who these people are and what can be what are the visions and the reviews so how do you measure the impact and who can actually deliver these are also really important at the end of the idea development stage so it's a really long talk today i hope it's not so intimidating to you do you have any questions cool so i'll take the first question hello good morning and so my questions are a lot into the details but my main concern is how are you inviting the users like how long does it take what's their time involvement what are the incentives for them to show up if they have worked they have to me is do you compensate in some way how do you make them arrive to the sessions like the specifics about the participation of the people affected by the problem yeah okay so we usually have three weeks to prepare the workshop around three to four weeks because we have to notify people beforehand so we don't really get much time to like it's not like two months or three months it's just usually less than one month and the incentives for those people usually it's based on their interest so many of those people who signed the petition but not just them it's also important to include experts like those people who really know the nuance between different issues within the topic so we want to create the group dynamic that is really diverse so during the research stage like i mentioned before the the stakeholder mapping exercise we usually do their exercise during the pre-meetings within the government across different ministries so we ask them to give us the the list that they may think who will be capable of doing the discussion or who should be involved during the pre-meetings and then we go through the list and curate the the best groups for for different topics and then you adapt like for example in the Fisherman you went to the village because you adapt how you reach to them depending on who they are so the the people from the agriculture they actually have those connections yeah so do Patricia I want to talk a little bit more about that like how how does this being generated and how do you connect that with them hi i'm Patricia in this Penghu case we with a step of our Council of Agriculture we are always keep a good connection with Fisherman and the Fisherman's Association in daily life so when this issue comes out and and we inform them and invite them to attend the meeting and they show highly concerned and with a highly will to attend this meeting so let's to contact the people it's not a question to us okay yeah and as far as i know the incentives as i mentioned that is sometimes it's based on their interest so um we don't really pay those people most of the times it's based on like they will really want to have a say and they want to make a change so that's their incentive but i'm not sure like this because some of the ministries they actually pay those participants with their own budget but yeah i just mentioned uh i just think about that because it's a little bit of paradox in this case because uh when this proposal was as established um some people to encourage the Fisherman's community to treat the man who made this proposal as a kind of enemy i think so they maybe have some negative emotion on this issue and the people they think if we if we don't show up and maybe it will harm our interests so that merge the people to come out okay this um this is remarkable um i how how are the cio's empowered um to like the the po's how how did you break through the barrier of getting the cio's to accept that the po's exist within their offices um very carefully so um so it's true that this is somewhat um experimental right this is basically a way so that the cio's actually to to work outside their comfort zone um but on the other hand um it also gives cio's much more legitimacy if they figure out who is the actual agency in charge of this policy issue because if you compare the status before we had the pio network we still have the a petition platform but it is a common observation that if the petition pertains only to one agency it usually gives a good um solution or at least a dialogue of the probe of the problem but if it is a cross agency not necessarily cross-ministerial if it is cross agency problem all the petitioner gets is a explanation rather than a real dialogue or a solution and this is a well-observed fact of the joint platform um before the pio network is formed so it's identified as a weakness of the platform by popular media and also it makes the cio's look actually bad if all they can do is to explain the problem instead of solving them so it's also a way for them to to politically leverage other ministries who should actually support the the same kind of political agenda that they're pushing but wasn't possible because of the silos so that's the political motivation for the cio's for the pio network to exist for the pio's themselves of course it reduces risk that's the the easiest explanation of why pio's throw their time into doing this but also for the agency people it also reduced the cost of them explaining the same thing over and again without getting a clear direction of where to improve the status quo and all in all this is a design to solve the coordination problem by getting people to commit on possible solutions before actually implementing it but it's it's not always easy of course but as the pio network is stable as in it's the same 60 people right it grows a little bit but it's the same 60 people over the course of one year so just apply standard game theory prisoner style amount thing because these people are stuck like with each other so it doesn't make sense to to just try to shove the problem away or things like that and it makes a lot of sense to to share food and build solidarity so that's the origin of the design and with this design explain very carefully to the deputy ministers they eventually see see the light purely on political calculus and a follow-up question to that how were the pio's selected or hired and what skills or characteristics were looked for and selecting those people and then finally this pdis provide training for people in the pio network and what kind of training right so there's a national regulation the direction for implementing the roles of participation officers in the executive union and subordinate agencies that is a great read i encourage you all to read it eventually it's on google docs that that i just paced it in but in short summary yes we do provide training but most training is through problem-based learning that is the collaboration meeting and pre-meetings itself and the pio's that doesn't get petitions or other collaborations like the i don't know national palace museum which is part of the cabinet and then things like that and the haka council and whatever they become supporting crew to the collaboration meetings run by other ministries that are more busy so that's the training part as for the picking pio's part we famously posted on the national bulletin board said by the civil society the ppt which is the equivalent of reddit right so we we actually posted on the equivalent of slash r slash public servant and and say you know who want to be the pio's just speak up but you first has to be a public servant and so we did get some pio's this way but the requirements that they are career public servants and they're usually senior ones and the cio's may not know them personally but authorize them to basically lead a internal cross agency team exactly the way pete is well facilitating i wouldn't say leading the pio network so it's a fractal like structure and the council of agriculture has the distinction of passing its own regulation on participation offices of subordinate agencies so the same exactly the same structure is replicated on the cell level and the force level agencies with the same time structure and training structure so so this is like a fractal way of doing more holistic selection and it's all vetted by the cio of course but the pio's also has to volunteer for it like they has to agree with it and we try to have pio's led by career public servants that's our senior and they're not and not by political appointees because otherwise they just get rotated out at the central the chief information offices who are also deputy ministers so each ministry may have one or two or three deputy minister and one of them are bound to be the cio in is does the cio have the purview of the technology budget and kind of digital within the ministry yes hat sorry if i miss this has a information that's surfaced through these pio events resulted in changes in legislation like changes in policy at the legislative level it's easier far easier to change in the regulation and policy level because that's something that the administration can decide by itself fortunately most of the petitions are targeting this level but if it does require a law change then we we need to work with the legislators somehow so just like the v taiwan setup introduced yesterday sometime we invite actually they invite themselves the aides of the mps and even mp themselves watch over live stream and so on in anticipation of the administration proposing a bill draft that's a taiwan's constitution basically allows actually costs for the administration to propose its own draft bill for the parliament to deliberate and so we see ourselves as doing homework research work for the mps if it does come to a law change but we have no control over how mps interpret our suggestions but we can prepare up to the point where we send a draft bill but to be perfectly honest these petitions they are very popular as mps own topics for inquiries for draft bills also so sometimes even before we get to the point of collaboration meeting some mp will just harvest this as their agenda and that complicates political matters a lot but fortunately the majority of those petitions collaboration works about policy and budget and regulation of the things can i or we can we can hand it off each one one one i got i got two more there quick does do legislators then actively participate in the process yes but not the full process and that's that's that's all i have to say um what what level of awareness would you say the civil service community in general has of the program like would you say 10 of civil servants who are kind of are in this milieu are aware or is it 80 percent like what well of the 23 million people in taiwan around five million has used the platform so i'm sorry of the civil servants yeah the people in government of the civil service i'm sure that because there's quite a few very high-profile petitions concerning the welfare of public service so i don't have hard numbers but i think over half of the public service are at least aware of this platform and and they're related to p o network and but i don't have to the numbers maybe and easy this um thank you for sharing all of this this the um the p o network is such an unusual and progressive approach to governance it's like both inspiring and like really depressing i think as an american um my question is uh comes from ignorance of of sort of taiwanese social dynamics um who what are the marginalized or historically disenfranchised groups and how do you reach them and in in the context of that how do you define diversity you mentioned many times diversity as a as a goal for for the collaborative groups so i think odry can answer the first question i will take the second question um so how do we identify those um like diverse groups um during the so when we when we got the the information about what topic are we going to tackle in the following months we will start doing research and uh the way that we do research is we started uh to look at uh what people already been mentioned and discussed about on the it it position website and also we would like to ask cvs servants like pros about is there any meetings that has been uh being hold to discuss about these issues and who are the stakeholders involved in the previous meetings and also we will look at journals and public debates and by looking at informations from different channels we get the chance to know what the stakeholders are and by identify those stakeholders we get a good look about how the group can be formed for the collaboration workshop does this answering your question um yes and are there is there a major group that is historically disenfranchised in taiwan i apologize for such a okay i think elderly can take this one um well yes um i think the the fisher the fisher people they are they're actually traditionally very wary of any so-called participatory processes um they're they're far more used to like this top-down um like power over people kind of organization and mostly because they're in a difficult position really the the near sea fishing itself is um in danger of disappearing as far as i know especially around the punggol area in the coming decades there's problem of overfishing there's problem of lots of things and because taiwan has such a atmosphere of sustainable ecological development and the ecological groups are far more active in social media and whatever other organizations so so they see themselves as somewhat disenfranchised in in many local issues as well as national issues and in fact it was framed because this punggol case is our first marine national park that's open to the public um they seem as very symbolic like the the in the interest in the name of marine biodiversity we're taking the lively who's a fisher people away that was the initial framing of the discussion and so um but gradually they they discovered that first this is not about counting the people who show up this is not about making a decision right on the spot and that this is not about for example their traditional way would be arguing for particular MPs or councils people to negate the whole process and start the process that have a lot of experience doing that but after they discovered that first technologically we make it impossible for protesting to stall the actual discussion on the second room and that the second room turns out to be pretty balanced to to their interest and that there are common values like sustainable fishing and things like that that everybody nevertheless agreed on so as the collaboration meeting progresses they become actually much more active and constructive after the the the collaboration meeting and sometimes they go back and watch the whole live stream and actually discover that there are points that are actually in their favor so um there's no fundamental paradox that uh or conflict of interest of the two or different sites does the main message we manage to get across and they become much more constructive afterwards uh and uh put a lot of very constructive inputs um so while not a fairytale like I wouldn't say that all fishers people locally have been turned very importantly the the leader of the the local fishing association actually came to a very reasonable spot where we can do constructive things on like it makes a lot of sense to first provide alternative routes for their careers and take care of the local livelihood and empower local NGOs and co-ops to co-own the development program instead of having a top-down national service park a national park driven program and so on so um those details are just meant to to show that the layered approach actually gets to the solutions that works for everyone that everyone can live with and starting from that point they become become much more eager to participate in local civil organization after they they see that the government is not just bowing to 5 000 people and uh you know having a very heavy-handed um way on their living as the government actually was prone to do especially local government uh in the past decades so that's how we gradually work on this inferentializing issue and I think the the nationally visible press conference that Petrucia helped is also very important in showing that this is actually even if it's a election year we're taking a very balanced approach and instead of succumbing to like over radical interests that's cause for a solution right now right this yeah um I suppose this is the time to keep asking questions about the the e-petition platform that you use so those of us who lived through obama's little experiment with we the people and saw how cynically the White House treated those petitions and also how the press didn't take them seriously and the advocacy community barely took it seriously but I think there's a marginal conversation going on in the notes about trying to understand why taiwan's experiment has thrived and what we didn't do here or what the conditions were that has allowed it to thrive in a way that the White House's approach was a failure and so can you say more about just like how it was uh put into place who you know I mean you could take these things and ignore them right um the threshold is very low when the in the in the White House's case they started with a low threshold for what a meaningful petition had to be requiring a response and then they steadily increased it um they also thought you know well they joked and said well it's all about legalizing marijuana and no one takes that seriously right so it's just the potheds who are most interested in getting attention to their issue I mean it's really 10 years ago that was the attitude that this is not a serious issue and they're just online those internet people I think Obama said at one point you know that's I guess what they're most interested in instead of saying this is an issue that's being ignored and I finally created a portal for people to get ignored issues paid attention to and my goodness there's actually a lot of people who care about this maybe we should pay attention so I'm I'm just wondering if you can say more about why it has worked there what and what we can learn maybe for the next chance we get to do this here I just just before all dream answering the question I think I would I like to add something before that so the the ministry that is um conducting and responsible for the the Yip Lijun platform is actually over here in the national department the national development council um so she she's actually going to share about the experience later on in the afternoon and so she can maybe add some comments on to this as well but the the multi stakeholder collaboration model that I was talking about is not actually the model that directly or just to serve the petition website the model is actually can be used for any kinds of topics that's being raised by by the public or by the civil servants within within different ministries so I think I just want to make sure that I understand that but I it appears to me as an outsider that what the petition platform has done is given everyone a common place to elevate things in somewhat of an equal way I mean as opposed to you're a celebrity so your issue gets more attention or you're rich or you can raise a lot of money so your issue gets more attention and so from the legitimacy standpoint having that sort of neutral playing field uh is good um I mean how how is government supposed to listen uh who should it listen to I mean obviously constituents but the federal government the constituency is the entire country so that's why I'm zeroing in on this and it seems to me it gives a certain degree of political cover to people inside government if they actually want to do something about an issue to say well you see there's a petition demanding that we pay attention to this so there's a value in that as well different from saying oh some columnist in a newspaper is writing about it so I'm I'm trying to understand more about the question and also about understanding what is happening in uh the Taiwan and down zero and it seems to me like part of the difference is that um there is a outside of government community activists taking responsibility for creating these multi-stakeholder groups and then inviting government into it so it's not like someone saying um okay so here's all this stuff you government do something about it it's more like taking an initiative to do something about it and and in a way that will also assist and support the government and so then they have more buy-in and specifically um what I'm hearing is that you guys are working with the uh administrators rather than the politicians so it's like how can we make bureaucracy's life easier by co-creating intelligent responsible things um but not asking them to do it but but inviting them to participate in something that the initiative for it is coming from the public volunteer sector I'm not sure if I'm understanding this but that's kind of how I'm hearing it right so um the PO network is a spiritual reincarnation of the Vitaoan project within the administration so so it is not structured entirely like Vitaoan because the so-called volunteers they are also career public servants and they often have other jobs uh it's rare that we have a PO that are so fully authorized that she can essentially lead the HOPEO network within one ministry or one council it is true that many PO's they still double as for example media officers or they've double as parliamentary officers that's the two most common ones but also planning officers and so on so they're somewhat restricted in in their role not like it full-fledged Vitaoan contributors who can you know play any role whatsoever so there's some some institutional parts that PO play it's not the pure volunteer network that being said we try to recreate a volunteer network dynamic so the the peer selection the process selection and so on all of that was lifted from Vitaoan so that that's to answer your question and so short question about the the e-petition and why we boost trap the PO network using the e-petition so the e-petition platform came because of the national forum on economic development in 2014 and that was one of the main demand of the people who show up at the national forum the national forum was held because of the Occupy sunflower movement called for a national constitutional forum and so the my angel administration did not actually want to do a constitutional reform forum so they did a more administrative one instead but the people really wanted a constant way of setting the agenda of administration and the threat the unspoken threat was always that if that's not done we're just go ahead and occupy you at the end so there's a political will often just hangs around this e-petition platform that that basically said if you don't make it legitimate enough something like Occupy will happen again so so that's the kind of unspoken context of how the e-petition platform was done and finally the e-petition platform was developed by the then freshly built NDC the NDC was a new agency formed by the combination of two very old agencies the Council for Economic Planning and Development and also the Council for Research Development Evaluation and so these two were respectively responsible for long-term plans and for evaluation like auditing the other ministries to make sure they follow those plans and now once those two agencies merge together it become very powerful because they're able to essentially set the agenda and make sure that other ministries are held accountable for the agenda and so the political power of the NDC as the chief agency to to work on the joint platform and also the national open data platform far exceeded what would be possible if it had it be done with one of the planning already you know supervising agencies so this like super ministry is I think one of the key ingredients why it becomes so effective because they can hold the ministries to account if they don't respond essentially. All right I think we'll move on. Also one thing in in our case Mika coming back to your initial point is the level that it should be done at the city level and not the federal level to make it more attractive and maybe that is some part of the comparison. All right so we'll move on to the exercise part of it the the group that you're you're a part of for the exercise is indicated by the the color of the the dot you have and if you don't have a dot do I know you don't both of you I will I will come give you give you the color and there are three tables the the color corresponds to the color up on the board behind you and then Feng Patricia Tiffney and Chu Yang will will lead you in the exercises and then we'll keep coming back together periodically. So now is the time for exercise one we are running a little bit behind so I will do this a little bit quicker not maybe is it is it sorry my slides it's not working yes could you could you help me with this uh it's it's not okay I will just give a brief introduction about exercise one okay so further exercise one we're going through the discovery and definition stage so in the in the beginning please look through the statements that you have on your table do can anyone see the statements could the facilitators bring people the statements for each group for data integration so please please have a look on the the statements on the issue cards that has been generated and it has different categories so is this a problem statement if it's if it if it is if it is a problem statement then take the box of problem so there are different categories and if there is you also have to make sure that the reference you have the reference so is it your own opinion or is it something you find on internet and who said that just the data integration one everyone's fine so have a look and then and then start writing the statements that you have or you found our internet on the blank issue cards your different views okay so yeah uh and this is the kind of problem I'll go into the groups and if you have any questions you can ask me okay so I'll just quickly explain what the statement is so when you when you think about a topic sorry sorry stop everyone stop just listen to me okay so if there is anyone who is questioning about like how can I make how can I write a statement imagine what you did yesterday on police these are all statements okay so if you imagine that you are starting you're starting to talk about this issue about data integration and then you may raise a lot of your point of views they are all statements and they can be problem like what are the problems in in the in the issue integration data why do we have to integrate the first data we what are the problems and you can start making those statements and if you sometimes when people have problem statements then they will talk about the the solutions so if you if there any solution that raised up to your up to your mind then you can write it down and if there is something same and that's uh some statement that are uncertainties so you are not sure if it's question or is it is a problem or is it just a fact then you you put it uncertainties but if there is any resources like laws or any NGOs or government bodies they are all resources you can put that down do you have any questions okay so who remembers for the folks that were here yesterday who remembers what our topic was and what we were discussing with polis okay how can the city government use and protect local residents how can the city government use and protect local residents data okay so we're going to be building off of that today so for those that weren't here yesterday you can catch up with your group but that's really our question how can actually be really nice uh can someone right it back there so we can all see it nice and big okay so based on that issue now you're going to make these issue statements but but that's actually a challenge statement because you already have like a focus area but just just forget about yesterday's topic we focus on data integration and is there any data privacy or any it can be anything you can deciding your within good groups if you want to talk about privacy issue then then talk about it because would you consider the privacy issue a sub-issue would you would you consider the privacy issue a sub-issue of the data integration issue of a larger data integration question because yesterday when we started from data integration people started to ask like what kind of data I see so you're starting about privacy is it about sharing data between different ministries or that makes sense yeah so we're starting from exactly where we started discussing yesterday with data integration so we're taking a step back yesterday they started with topic data integration and then like everybody in the room had a different idea with that mid so we were like trying to figure out of hey everyone we're going to have lunch or prepare for lunch at 12.15 so if you can use the remaining time to see where you can get in your groups and after lunch you can finish this exercise they they feel that I do our clap once here yeah I can't do the clap once it's too much I could do that DJ DJ I got it okay everyone clap once if you can hear me clap twice if you can hear me great thank you so much all right here's what we're going to do before we get started for lunch like each group to go around and share is the ending group that they feel you already finished everything for this for the exercise one that you would like to share with you while you've done sure we went through the exercises and I guess we can maybe I can just explain the categories we eventually group things into some of the major categories were mistrust trust of data data driven injustice you know wearing that misuse of data would kind of create injustices intergovernmental barriers collaboration between agencies in regards to using data and an unclear public understanding of bureaucracy so like what policies or practices exist right now in relation to data and an unclear public understanding of transparency like you know what data is accessible and we've tried we tried to map some of the ideas behind and below them but quickly realized that we actually had like a resource gap because we didn't we couldn't find the resources that would address these issues quite yet well in that particular context how do you go about documenting the resources that like if there's other people in the room like do you then ask people to kind of circulate around the room and put resources that they may know of from the different groups this is actually a full set of education tool for public servants to learn the facilitation skills so it's not the tool we actually use during the workshop it's that it's a tool for training them to be more prepared to be a nice facilitator helping on generating ideas with the citizens later on in the real workshop so here when we prepare this is like the phase we prepare for the workshop after we done this whole full set of tool kits we're going to create a document of how we analyze this issue so we here actually means the public servants and PDs mainly POs and PDs team will be the ones who create the preparation of the workshop so after all this process done with the canvas we'll come up with we'll digitalize all these issue cards into post-its on electronic whiteboard on the website so mama can you come here and show me show everyone what you're doing on your computer yeah right so what we've done so far for the past 30 minutes will be digitalized into a um a web uh electronic version we're gonna put it up yeah yeah so far yeah they're gonna put it up and and this this uh real-time board we call it real-time board it's a tool called real-time board for digitalizing post-its this this canvas will be intensely discussed during the collaborative workshop with with people who create the workshop including PDs and POs and other public servants and also the citizens we invited researchers experts to the real collaboration workshop secure too so um as Shuyang mentioned before that we actually during the workshop we will digitalize those comments and statements real-time Lee so people would be able to reflect and add their thoughts real-time as well and then it's shared with the wider stakeholders also the citizens who go online they were able to see the comments and the real-time as well so the document um can be accumulated over time so if there's there's another workshop then they can use this as the base to start a new conversation so see us just that i found it interesting that our group came up with some categories that were similar to that and was just curious if that something that you know often happens in your workshops that i mean not exactly the same but that there's parallel themes that come up in in each of the workshop so so actually as Shuyang mentioned before this is the preparation stage so we do this training before the preparation stage to show how severe servants they are able to um aggregate the different information so during the preparation stage they should um like delete those duplicated comments and aggregate them all together so at the end all of your groups um we don't have this time to do this today but um at the end of the session during the preparation stage they need to be able to come up with a complete landscape of what the problems are and what the ideas there and then that you would they will use this information to be the input of the collaboration workshop so they will show them this is what we've researched um we've done for the research and if you have any comments you can add on to that just a quick one um i had thought initially we were killing it but i'm also seeing the different ways that you can do this because our categories are closely correlated to your problem to the group's problem statements so it's there's because i would have thought mistrust was a category but it's actually the problem statement or the problem issue yeah so it's it's just different ways of kind of framing the the challenges and it's really important that people and get a chance to um reflect on this kind of opinions based on this structure uh actually the um mistrust that level those are the categories actually for us those are the ones that we created out of our groupings of problem statements um mistrust actually it should be it should be longer because what is mistrust who means what is the context of mistrust it's it's just a keyword yeah so what calls mistrust people have to elaborate more on that okay so we're going to get ready for today's lunch what i'm going to ask you to do is to count yourselves off one through five and then one two three fours and fives organize yourself by your groups all right so over here with shoe all right group ones two three fours and fives you're a clue hander outer yes can you stop presenting okay group one this is group one group one i am handing out clue sheets to your groups i'm sorry the madlib sheets these can i hand these out i'm not handing out clue sheets just these sorry not the clues not clue sheets but madlibs introduction for yeah until i mean it's fine if you have this for the slides okay you guys ready for lunch we can't hear you you're ready for lunch all right that's better all right welcome to lunch day two so um i did some research yesterday based on the polis question that came up uh consulted the necessary experts so there's the recipe for those snack balls i'm glad that those are so well loved um yeah so again lunch is an opportunity for youtube process socialize and play and today um i thought of working with the themes that you're being introduced to through the po network which is more of a discovery and problem finding focused process also about seeking perspectives to build a complete picture and also the fact that it's a guided framework for modeling complexity that makes kind of impossible to get a way to like tackle something that could be shapeless and infinite um but i'm not going to share the inspiration for today's lunch because that would give it away it is actually your job to discover what it is and to do so you will have to go around the room and ask experts who will have the missing pieces of information for you to locate what you need so can the experts raise their hands and darshina who's currently uh getting plates down very briefly from a high place whoo all right thank you darshina um yeah so you know who to ask to find what you need and now darshina will be or sorry cs will be handing out clue cards which you will fill out to locate ingredients which will come together and form a complete picture of what your lunch will be all right so the ingredients are in the room and let's begin so just to be clear you're you're working as a team and you're all going to fill out your clue card together by consulting the volunteers yeah


hi yeah hi so please introduce yourself yeah this is Dawson I'm from PIS corporation in Tate and responsible for the marketing and the products so we see a lot of big batteries yeah big batteries this this belongs to the portable power stations yeah yeah according to this as you say this is Ironman series we have four capacities for this series nice so there's like all the way up to big ones yeah<PHONE_NUMBER> yes all right and what's the difference between each series we have 40 kind of IDs each IDs have three and four three to four capacities for this one we call this glycerin and the power is range from 300 600 to 1000 how is the quality of the back the power the power the power is what maybe it's the same the same yeah same YouTube and then it depends on the power construction if you use as you know the battery is 300 water hours so if you just use this to power power the appliance which which the power contribution maybe 100 hour is can last 2.5 hours that's the battery life yeah but when people let's let's walk around here yeah and maybe you want to talk about one of these yeah what's the difference here this kind of design it just ID yeah as you know the ID just the difference but the electric structure and the factions are the same for the same capacity all right what is the CPU for each of the portable power station is have contains three three balls we called invertebrals DC balls and MPT solar balls yeah which can support to as you know you can use to use the solar panels glass or football solar panels to charge this portable station so the MPT controller board is just used for this faction and another for this one you can use this the battery building this portable station just the inverter a DC to AC to power your small appliance and maybe your cell phones so it's very simple to connect affordable solar solution just very simple just use this one just use this one as you know mcs doesn't matter how much sound there is it will just work yeah maybe I think if the son is good the power metal generation will be very well but if the cloudy so the power that the generation power will be weak yeah yeah sunny day sunny days is always work works but if the cloudy day or rainy day it's very weak so you can't maybe use this the solar panels to power your power station what kind of price are we talking about maybe it depends maybe I'm I think maybe a range from 120 US dollar to maybe 500 US dollars maybe depends on the amount of views for each model is 300 and then they have bigger bigger ones here this is the 200 200 what 200 how much is price for 200 what yeah 200 what is it so is it foldable yeah it's only work in a dry weather if you put in a rain yeah yeah raining it can work waterproof yeah rain proof yeah what proof it's okay it's IP 65 so you can just leave it all year and then leave it on my roof all year or it's only for sometime I think it's not it's not suggested to use the on your roof all the time because it when raining maybe have some water you know store so in so in your solar panel on the water is worth destroy your solar panels waterproof means IP 65 yeah yeah not all the time okay maybe you can just pour some water to this to this is okay but you just want to put in the water it's not okay okay you don't have a waterproof version yeah we got the water fully fully weather I think I think you as you know this is the fabric fabric it can't do can't do what proof yeah to the IP68 if you can do the IP68 it's okay 668 IP68 can just put maybe this solar panels on your roof all the time yeah it's no problem IP68 yeah the cost is so high so we didn't do that okay how much is this maybe maybe from this this depends depends on the solar panels different solar panels different price I think maybe around 50 to 100 to 100 60 to 100 yeah US dollars and then you have the big ones here yeah this one micro inverter this micro inverter you see in the you made a balcony solar system yeah we got the the type 600 800 yes and this is the EV charges the charges this is the EU model this is the three-phase even AC EV charges the power is 20 to 22 kilowatts and this one is also the EU models the power is the same kilowatts and is it possible that you make any of these that can take the power from the car to put in the house or only to charge the car right now we only just use this to power to charge your car but but we are developing the be directional yet charging yet different system different system not this one right but our in the our development plan all right are you a very big company how many how many people in the factory we have the more than 300 and it's three three thousand seven hundred of staffs oh yes so we have four manufacturing the local database what is what is this is this one is the home backup systems yeah we just design manufacturing and service we are all the big factory yeah we are the ODM manufacturer is this expensive it depends as you know the batteries as the batteries can can be customized it's big big big for each one maybe 500 for this one this is the the power of of this battery battery pack maybe 2.5 kilowatt hours it costs maybe 400 US dollars each so you need to have maybe 20 kilowatt hour or more yeah it depends your the power comes to your home yeah if you want 20 you need to pay that's gonna be three thousand yeah hundred right maybe yeah maybe that's we're talking about distributor price right yes all right and the distributors will buy thousands of these and just install and every house yes and it will be reliable and stay good for five ten years yeah more than ten years I for our products our guarantee international guarantee is five years but some of customers looking for longer guarantee years maybe seven years maybe ten years so I think the construction for the battery packs for the inverters is different and the price is different is it possible to calculate ten years how much capacity will be left it will reduce the capacity yeah it it depends depends the the batteries themselves maybe you'll be half yeah or not I think maybe ten years if I think if the model for ten years a guarantee can last 12 years for the batteries 12 year battery can last yeah if I think I mean the model 10 10 years guarantee can last 12 years actually yeah so in 12 years the capacity will there will be half or maybe in this case to less than 80 percent less than 80 less than 80 is good yeah I think but maybe not half no no 50% no 80% 80% all right cool all right so thanks a lot it's great to see all this power and in the future people who want solar should just get this yes connect the solar and that finish yes no need to make big construction no need to invest $20,000 $50,000 right be possible to have a very good solar solution yes three four five thousand yes yeah maybe should be possible right yes yes it's possible just use one of this maybe two can you connect two right now yeah right now we we can't just you know connect these two together but our next version can do that fraction nice and then I can connect my washing machine on it or it's not enough this washer yeah washing machine washing machine washing machine is okay fridge fridge it depends on the power of your applies maybe it's more than one thousand yeah I think maybe for the fridge it's okay small small or the middle weight middle fridge is next than 1000 watts but if you connect two together 1000 and 1000 it will not be 2000 right yes yes it will not oh it can if you just want to connect this to your future the power the maxi output power make maybe maybe a rage to rage to 2000 watt it's okay yeah double yes right yes all right thanks a lot thank you okay my pleasure