riddles. He would sometimes ask, but what's the, what's the better part of the fish, the tail of the head, you know, is, you know, questions that you couldn't, you didn't really have an answer for, you know, and the only answer and the only thing that you could do is just the only thing that you really could do is sit down and eat a handful of fish and a handful of rice and listen and take it in, you know, and not try to figure it out. And that, you know, the feeling, the poetic feeling of being a Filipino and being a Filipino American and being a Philan and what that all entails, like the shame that comes with that, that, you know, that we don't necessarily know our language, right? That that was taken from us, that, you know, we do have a voice and, you know, those little things like sitting down and eating a handful of fish and rice or knowing what a Manong or a Manang is, those small things mean everything. Those are seeds that are planted in us. And for somebody that writes poetry like me, a storyteller, that made all the difference in my life. So I hope that, I hope they didn't ramble too long. That's just how I feel. Yeah.  And I'd like to ask if you could unmute Lucille, I think she's she's stuck on mute for some reason. I haven't been able to un I'm trying. OK, can you hear me now? Yeah, we got we got you. We got you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. So the beautiful thing was, you know, he was born in 1997. And, you know, with a lot of kids, you know, this was an it was an unplanned thing. And I didn't really, you know, it was kind of like your mind is going in a thousand different directions, you know. And really, the impetus behind it was, you know, what what did I want him to know about his culture, about his self, about him? You know, what did I want him to grow up with knowing about his community, his history, his self? And, you know, the book here really, you know, it's it's really it just articulates everything that I kind of had to figure out over time about what it just meant to be a Filipino American, you know, and being a mixed race, you know, part Filipino, part Black and part Irish from San Francisco. And that's a whole other thing, too. We call ourselves sometimes Frisco Pinos, right?    And, you know, there's this refrain in the book. Oi, oi, Filipino boy. Well, when I was a kid, there was a I saw a guy in a big car, looked like a big Buick, and he saw me and he saw connections. Hey, Filipino, right? And it wasn't like he was trying to do anything bad, but it was this recognition, you know, this recognition, a sense of community. And I said, yeah. And then I thought about it like, oh, God, what does that even mean? You know, and as time goes by, you learn so. And did you take did you take the cost through Manila town? He came to Manila town. Yeah, we, you know, by the time Manila town became something in reality for me, it had been, you know, it had shrunk in size because of, you know, gentrification, of course, the expansion of the of the financial district in San Francisco. So what I had to go off on was really just stories, because, you know, my grandparents in the 1920s met in Manila town, you know, my grandfather and my grandmother on my father's side, my grandmother was a waitress in the Bataan cafe, right? And that's that's that's where they met. And I would just hear stories about grandpa and grandma, you know, when they were younger, you know, when when they were just starting out meeting at Manila town and just all the life and the history that went on over there. So I just felt like even though I didn't spend a lot of time there, I felt that that that was a part of me. That was a part of my history, you know, so it gave me an anchor. It really grounded me in the in the city, you know, and it gave me more of an identity, you know, just clued in. I clued in on what it meant to be philand, you know, to be Filipino-American. And what did I mean, what did he think of the neighborhood? Did you tell him stories of the people that used to be around there when he would walk the neighborhood? Yeah, you know, I got most of those stories really from my uncle and my father. You know, there was a place called the Silver Wing Cafe and you know, we would we would eat. We would eat breakfast there. And I think it was kind of an homage, you know, like a salmon will always go upstream. My father would go there because of the history that, you know, that he had there. And when I went there with him, you know, we were we were eating there.  And, you know, it was the low cholesterol blue plate special, you know.   Well, what happened was after Lacoste was born, I noticed, you know, like with a lot of babies, they have the cowlick hair that sticks up. And when I saw that it was kind, it was comical. I thought it was funny in that it looked like a fish, you know. So I had this image of him looking inside of a window of a fish market and coming face to face with a fish that had the fins that looked like that and they would mirror each other. And so that was it kind of it kind of took off from there because I got kind of a weird imagination, you know, flying fish and fish running across the street. So as luck would have it, we were on the end, Judah Streetcar one day, and I was telling Uncle Al about this.  So I told her about it in Long Story Short. She said, well, look, it sounds interesting.  And I sent it to her, but it nothing really happened. I think she was in transition into, you know, I guess leaving Children's Book Press or something. And a year went by and after that, Ina Cumpiano was then the editor and she got in touch with me. I think she sent me a letter saying, hey, we were throwing a lot of stuff out and we saw your sketches and we're interested in reopening this conversation. Would you be amenable to that? I'm like, hell yeah, I'd be amenable to that. And that's kind of how it launched. And when did she have you over at the office and stuff, did you? This was, you know, maybe a couple of weeks after, you know, and I was really frightened because I'd never written a children's story before. I didn't really know how to approach it. And I was kind of lamenting it and I was, you know, false starts, fits and starts. And then finally my uncle told me, hey, you know, Tony just write it as a poem, write it as a poem.  And a couple of a week or so went by and I'm laying in bed eating French bread and the crumbs are getting on the sheets. And finally, boom, it hit. And I wrote it all in one shot, but it came as a poem, you know, French bread and all.  And that's because it's almost like a song.  I mean, sometimes when people bring up to me before they sign it, that's how they'll hail me down to sign the book. And then, you know, it's like the thing where if you're in a crowd and somebody goes, just about every little person will turn around to see if they're being hailed down. And for that, it was almost the same thing. And I would wind up, you know, just I would wind up responding to that. And it's something that's almost automatic, at least with the movie that comes with that book.  Hey, remember me? Benny Blanco from the Bronx? Oi, Oi, Filipino boy is our Benny Blanco. That's our Benny Blanco. I mean, because I guess, because usually it takes a while for, you know, for editors to respond, you know, with to an inquiry, you know, for a manuscript or a story, you know? That's why it's really interesting that she responded just a couple of weeks after they were clearing stuff out. And also, I mean, when her and Bob Langdon, who is also, I guess he was, was he the publicist or something there at the time? I think he was the publicist, yeah. Because they had approached me about doing a book, but there was nothing there for me, no project that they felt they could connect me to. So my, my entry into this was when I was, I was at, there was actually an exhibit of children's book illustrators work out in Oakland, Museum of Children's, you know, MOCA, I guess is what they call it for short. And, you know, and Bob had attended the reception and they said, we might have this thing for you. And so it was, I mean, it was great because the only other project that I had done that had to do with, you know, Filipino-American subject matter was a book called Worldly Winds, which was published by Lee and Lowe. And Lee and Lowe's, you know, based in New York. And they were kind of the only multicultural children's publisher besides children's book press. I mean, they were much more bigger, larger in terms of their scope. But so when Ina sent me the manuscript, I actually didn't officially actually have the job job. I had to bring my slides over, you know, and show them my work. And, but fortunately, I mean, it wasn't long before she'd be contacting me again and then sent me the manuscript. And I just remember just how fun it was. And I was reading it. And then by the time I got to the end of it, there was no, there was no lesson. There was no, you know, like a lot of children's books tend to kind of be didactic where, you know, they start out with this conflict and then they work it through with 32 pages. And at the end, you learn something.  But what I liked about this was, I mean, it just, it was like this great song, you know, that I just kind of listened to. And for me, I mean, at first I was like, oh, great, I can't wait to be part of this.  Because then what you don't wanna do as an illustrator or someone who's creating the picture part of it is to weigh it down, you know? Whenever I'm trying to illustrate a manuscript, I try to do something where the sum of it is better.  You want there to be an active dialogue between the text and the images. And so when I was reading it, for me, it was to try and break things down. Like the first third of it of LaCosta and his dad are, you know, they're just having breakfast and they're on their way to the barbershop and they're just having this kind of a normal day. And it's only when they start, when the fish, when the fish breaks out of its case and all this mayhem kind of ensues was when I thought, okay, now I have to switch it up and compositionally try something different, and so, I mean, this was the kind of thing that Tony's words were inspiring me to do because when, and throughout, I would just constantly just read it out loud for me and for myself and I would just laugh and I would just think, oh, how can I write, how can I draw something, come up with something that also kind of makes that abuse, that spirit, you know, makes me laugh. And so, first of all, you know, I got it, I got the job, I was like, okay, I got to start coming up with stuff and then I hadn't met you yet.  And so, I remember when you and I met, you brought your sketches and we were, I forgot what Bart was, but you put them on the counter and then you started going, and I think this and I think that and I think this and I think that and I was looking and you're telling me how Kina had looked at the sketches and decided to take the story on, which so, I mean, when I was going to meet you, knowing that, I was thinking, gosh, I hope, you know, I hope that this is something that I don't have to exactly duplicate or are these sketches so good that why do they need me for it, you know? You're right, great.  And so that with the imagery that you provided, usually when a writer provides me with images and stuff that say, I'd really like kind of be this way in that.  And so I was a little cautious about looking at your sketches, but I mean, I found that that wound of actually inspiring me in a different direction, which is, you know, something that's unusual. So for me to meet Ina and then she would, if I ever bring me on board, then to meet you and then all be on the same page, that for me was, I felt like inspired to start. And so, and then after that, I was like, well, you're gonna meet the designer and Lucille Tenasis is gonna design the book.  Sorry. And I've only, it's one of those things where you only hear of this person. She was, Lucille, I think you were at, well, I don't know if you, were you at California College of Arts and Crafts back in like the, in the late 80s? Yeah, I started in 85. I left in 2005. So I was, I taught there for 20 years.  And then all my graphic designer friends were always, you know, kind of hailing. And then, so I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, and they would show me some of her work and everything and it was, and then when I found out like, you got who? You know, and when Nina told me, I was like, I was like, wow.  And just when I thought I had all my nerves settle, now I'm going to Bernal Heights. And I'm thinking, first of all, like, oh, well, I was kind of running almost late, I think. And so I'm going, I'm like, oh my God, I hope I'll be able to find her place. And then in Bernal Heights, there's this silver structure that looks like a, to me, I keep, the only thing I think of is it was shaped like a piano, like a giant silver grand piano in the middle of the neighborhood. And I thought, oh, okay. Well, that looks like a designer's house. I'm betting, I'm betting it's probably her.  I probably talked way too much. But I remember it's just so strange to sit across from you after hearing so much about you. And during the time that I was actually going to the school, like way back in, you know, 86, 88, I'm dating myself here.  But anyway, but I remember when we were discussing the visual approach to it, we were sort of discussing how we didn't want kind of, or at least we didn't want like the kind of typical pictures on one side, text on the other side. And I think we started, I think you brought out a couple of comic books and graphic novels and stuff. And we were, I remember you brought up Henny Penny. It was a children's book by Jane Wattenberg. You brought that out where the text was just as visual of an element as the illustrations and stuff. And I was just, I remember being so excited because, wow, it was going to be like a duet, you know?  Take Tony's poem and then break it into three. Like the first part of it is he's having that dream about the monum. And so I kind of kept the edges kind of diffused during that part of it. And then when he wakes up, he's with his father and it's a normal day. And then the third part is when the fish breaks out of the tank and they're running roughshot all over Manila town. And each third would have its own style in terms of like the palette, like it just would be diffused for the first third, then the second, the things were still kind of contained frame-wise as they're going through the normal day. And then when the fish breaks out, then that's when things start going out of frame. And so that was my approach to it.  And I mean, did I send you the thumbnail sketches?  Well, you have a better memory than I do. But I thought it was actually the first book, I've never done a children's book. I've done a lot of books. I work a lot with museums as well.  So when, I think it was probably Harriet who got in touch with me about this project. And, you know, since I'd never done a children's book, I thought, now this will be interesting to see how I would approach it. But when she told me it was bilingual, that was even more interesting for me because I, you know, I grew up in Manila. I came to the US when I was 25 to go to graduate school in design.  But if you spoke another dialect out of the over 100 dialects that we have, you know, because my parents were from Aklan. And so I used to go there as a kid, you know, and so I also spoke because they spoke, you know, Aklanon between them, I spoke that other dialect. So language was crucial for me. And when I decided to go back to school, you know, I had a design advertising degree in Manila. And then when I came back to the, when I came to the US, it was really to look, for some reason I think I, and Luis, my friend Luis Francha, who's a poet here in New York, was able to really articulate this in the way that because we were taught English in the Philippines, it was very natural for us to deal with language in bilingual ways. But then if you finally go to the source of that language, which is in America or Canada, whatever, the sort of academic way that we were trained, especially in my school to learn a language, a colonizing language, if you will, became an opportunity for me to play with the text, right?  I mean, I designed the cover of a poetry anthology. And for me, when Harriet said, this is a bilingual, you know, book, I wanted, so my challenge was always, it has to be 50-50. No one language predominates over the other, right? So I, and as an educator, I mean, I've been teaching now for 40 years. And in fact, I teach typography. That is my bailiwick. I teach semantics of, you know, and linguistics in a way. I'm not, you know, I'm not a scholar at all, but I'm a designer that pays very close attention to text. And so when I was looking at the manuscript, you know, that you, Tony gave us, and I, you know, Carl, I had no idea that your, the artwork came after the manuscript. I thought this was simultaneous. I didn't realize that Harriet or Ina came to you after they had approved the text from Tony. So when you and I met, we must have talked about, you know, the sort of like, how does one deal with the design? Because I want to be, I want to do justice to the image and the text, you know, and I am the third person there. So one does not, again, likewise, you know, with translation, one does not predominate over the other. And so if you look at the book, the sequencing of it and the narrative in terms of your illustration, Carl, what is on the left is Tagalog and what is on the right is English. But the, you know, it wasn't like, the images were not mirroring each other, even if the text was, you see what I'm saying? And so what was, to me, I think there were a lot of things I was grappling with initially because it is not a linear situation in terms of what the images are supposed to be. In fact, on one page, I was, I'm looking at, I'm revisiting this because in one page, for example, page 26 and 27, the way I treated the images or your images in terms of a triptych, if you recall, because the fish is kind of like jumping around and going into the water, I think. And then the, so the Tagalog part is fragmented. But then when you get to the English part, it's a singular image or, you know, this is one page.   And, you know, in this case, I'm looking how many pages we have here. 32 pages or 30, 31. So I, it was a great opportunity for me to really, you know, look at language. And then if, and you know, and here's the other thing because I'm very sensitive to type fonts, you know, space, yeah, like in terms of visual weight. I needed to make sure that the size, it wasn't like, let's say the size of the Tagalog is the same size as the English, it's not. Because each of these fonts have a particular visual weight. And so I had to make sure that the balance was established so that again, you will read the Tagalog in the same way you would read English. So you could go back and forth, you know, and as an educator as well, I'm looking at this as a teaching tool. It's crucial for me to, you know, even if I'm not a language teacher, you could go back and forth and they're all adjacent to each other, you know, the pages.   But if I recall, Carl, you did not, or maybe it was, because we never met Tony, I never met you when we were doing this book in the course of this book. So it must have been Harriet who was probably in agreement that, because it's a children's book, it's also about pedagogy. You're also teaching something, you know, to these kids, not just the language, but also hierarchy of language.  In terms of playing type on a page, that's the reason why they called you in. So that conversation is over. And which is great, because this is the thing, I mean, because I also do, you know, art direction and layout of children's books as well. And I mean, it's always kind of a challenge for me to, for the significance of the type to play as much of an important role as the image. Because, you know, with a number of the projects that I'm involved in, I mean, you know, I don't have as much of a say, but I mean, it's, but I mean, I always point to this example, to this book as an example of like, this is how visually exciting and lively, I mean, the whole thing is with the type and the images working to get, I mean, it would seem so simple, but so often there's sort of a meat and potatoes approach to the sort of thing where you'll have this on one side and that on the other. And the practical concerns just sort of outweigh, you know, the artistic ones. I mean, I think they should be, I don't know, I mean, I understand the importance of it, but I mean, it's just, you can still get away with making things exciting. I mean, the reason why the book I think has that kind of resonance is because of how, because everything is, there's such a great synergy between the content of the text, the placement of the text and the images and how they all work off of each other. People just like turning those pages. And I mean, I don't think, I mean, and I'm curious to see like, how do you see storytelling being done these days like in printed form? Because I mean, it seems like people have so much more access to different kinds of storytelling tools. A book, you get to behold it for a while and you sit and you look at the pages and stuff. Now, people are just holding up their phones or something or looking at things visually and different types of rules are being broken design wise from previous, whatever rules there were in the past and people are sort of taking things and running them in different directions. I mean, how do you see narrative design being done these days? Well, that's an existential question considering what's going on right now. But it points to a really crucial challenge when I talk about, well, when either, even if I'm designing something, let's say that is analog. By the way, print will prevail. I'm just telling you this. So, but then, I've also done, websites, right? And so when you're looking at what is the sequence of an interactive vehicle that is digital, it cannot be treated like a book because the book is all about pages. You sequence it, you wanna open it in the middle sometimes or you go to the table of contents and then you say, oh, maybe I should jump to chapter five just because of it's, maybe you're interested in that. And so I think, but the thing about the digital medium platform is that it cannot be seen in the same way. And so the parameters are totally different. As you say, it's handheld, right, right here. And then you have all your laptop, but most more often than not, it's your smartphone. So when, I've designed situations where, if it's analog, it's easy just because it's page by page. And in fact, I've designed artist monographs and one of them is my husband's who's a photographer and an artist. And I remember when I was laying out the images from that he wanted to include in the book, I laid it all on the floor and I said, oh, I see the sequence of these images, and I see where the thread is. And then, but he said, no, no, no, I want this to be on this page. And I said, no, you're used to seeing this in a gallery. That's different. The gallery is like, you're standing and you're looking ahead straight up. When I'm reading, I am looking down. So that is a different orientation altogether. Plus I am, you may know the sort of narrative, but I want somebody from the outside, an external, somebody who just came upon the book to create their own narrative so that it's still cohesive or however you wanna organize that. So the thing is, there's no formula. It's about being sensitive to the material. Like in this case, if we're talking about children's book, I'm not using the standards that I would do in an artist's monograph that is somebody who's creating like a retrospective. This is kind of like a window into a really interesting story. And so it's a self-contained narrative. And so I'm always aware of a book being something that has a beginning, a middle, and end. And so what is that arc? And at what point does it lead you? And so you're turning pages furiously because you wanna know what's next. And then when you end, it is the right end. And to the point when I tell my students, okay, it's your final presentations, introduce yourself, you only have five minutes, whatever. And a lot of speakers, a lot of people end their slides or presentations by saying thank you. And I say, I tell them, I hate thank you slides. I don't want you to use a thank you slide. I want you to end by saying, and in conclusion, or I would like to end with, and then focus on something that people will remember you by, whether it's a question, a word, a provocative image, whatever it is. But then you would have led us to this arc.  As opposed to like some people I've been, I've heard they end their lectures and they're like, oh, is that the end already? Right.  And then, or they'd say thank you. And then the thing is that they're thank you. Anyway, but maybe that's a long-winded way of saying that the arc is to be paid attention to.  And when I was trying to come up with the images for the book, part of it takes place in this manila town that's sort of mythical. And for me, I was thinking, okay, usually my approach to illustration is, you know, I'll go around, if it takes place at a certain location, I'll go around and shoot reference or I'll try and draw things from it or look up and do some research that way, just to fill my head up with stuff that I could eventually probably even throw out. But when I was reading Tony's lyrics, it was the thing where I was looking at it and I was thinking, oh, wow, this manila town's kind of mythical. And I would walk through Kearney Street and I was just thinking everything that he's referencing is gone.  And it was funny because it was then that I was, I brought it up to Tony and Tony said, well, let's talk with Michael Allen and see if he had any ideas, I think. And so the three of us just decided on, like it was like, I think it was after work. I was working at the study center at the time and we met after work and we started at the bottom of Kearney Street and just started walking up and then Al just started telling his stories about what used to be here and what used to be there. And the thing that's hard to describe is that he literally, well, it's like he brought me back in time with the way that he's such a rack and tour, but I mean, but also a poet at the same time. And he just can't help it, you know? So as he was pointing out the stories of the people who lived in these buildings and what they did, I started kind of projecting like who must have lived in these structures and what kind of life. And it was almost as if I was like time travel, you know? And so as I was looking at these newer structures, I was seeing ghosts in effect, you know? And so for me, I had taken pictures of the fish's trajectory through Kearney Street. And I was looking through them after getting them from the photo mat and thinking, how am I gonna use this? Because all the references that Tony is referring to are all of places that aren't there anymore. I thought, well, maybe what if I started, I started thinking about the people that used to live in these buildings. And so for me, I thought, well, what if I paid tribute to them by just using the current structure, you know, the reference that I shot, and then just collaging images of the people that used to live there. And yet, you know, just, and just painting them these like splashy colors just so you could see them in the background, but it wouldn't dominate, you know, the image. It would still be the focus of the fish and Picasso and dad. So I mean, but I don't think I would have gotten there if it weren't for Al bringing me there. And it wasn't through any sort of material that he showed me or through any, it was just sort of that sort of poetic power that you and him share. You guys are really good at using poetry to really bring people into like a different time or just the spirit of whatever it is that you're talking about. And... Yeah, he weaved, you know, he was weaving a world really and we were kind of being pulled in, you know, and I guess that's really the powerful part of the storytelling that he's so much imparted to me and to many other people, you know, that we never forget. And I guess, you know, that's part of the poet's gift is to be able to breathe life into these things, you know, that we don't forget.    You know, it's like somebody writing the lyrics to a song and then you have a singer come in and able to interpret it the way that you intended it. I think, you know, with your illustrations, you more than captured what it was that I was trying to say, what I was trying to convey. I had to do it in a humorous way because I'm not one to really pound my fist on the table and preach. And I think my uncle was very much like that too, you know, able to kind of get a message across by humor. And again, you know, I know you said this a lot, Carl, that it wasn't a didactic thing that, but you know, the message really, when I think about the book, particularly at the end, when the fish is dragging everybody out of the water and pumping the water out, and then they end up eating a meal together is really that, you know, you take all these people in the community and the fish really represents our culture and our history and the fish brings us all together in the end, you know.  And he was captured by them.  He surrendered himself to their stories and their lives. So in much the same way, you know, we're surrendering ourselves to the fish who really is just, it's symbolic of just who we are, our history, our culture, our pain or our laughter, you know, what, you know, the fish represents our ability to survive and come out the other end with laughter and poetry and music and love, you know. But it's time.  Well, I'm just curious that, you know, Tony, you used a fish as the metaphor for this story and this particular animal, right? And it's an animal that is typically found in one, you know, in one location, not location, but environment, which is the water. And so when it comes out of the water and becomes amphibious, what does it mean, right? To do that and to navigate a different landscape as opposed to, let's say, you know, another animal. You know, I'm just curious why? Because obviously, you know, you want an animal that is universal in one respect, but from what you've said, you know, in the context of memory as a carrier of memory and your son looking at, you know, this aquarium or fish tank and reflecting, you know, the reflection was on, you know, there's this kind of the in communion, right? Human being in a fish. But I mean, I could visualize this and what Carl has this, you know, I mean, it's in the cover. I mean, there's no mirroring here, but it is a reflection.  Yeah, and movement, you know, it suggests movement in the fish, you know, moving across an ocean, you know, caught between two worlds and trying to navigate. You know, fish was always important in, you know, growing up in the house. Grandma used to make a Spanish mackerel. She would make all these different types of fish. And she would say, she was Bicolano, right? So I'd eat the fish and I'd sometimes be staring at the fish next to the rice.  Eat that now, that is good for you. Eat your fish now, right? So then she would say, if I didn't want to eat it, she'd say, you don't know what you're missing kid. This is fish, fish is brain food. It is brain food, good for you. So in the one sense, I always thought that fish was something that make you smart. But on the other hand, eating the fish, eating the head of the fish, like seeing my uncle eat the head of the fish, you're eating the eyeball and all that. I was looking at it and it didn't look good to me, right? But then as I got older, I kind of got into it and it started, you know, I developed a taste for it. And I realized that it just became a metaphor. If you could eat the head of the fish, that means that you went to another level, man. You went that, you know, it was as if, you know, okay, I didn't know how to speak the language. I didn't know Tagalog, Ilocano, Ilongo, any of that stuff, right? But the fact that I could pick up a head of a fish and eat it, that somehow, you know, that I became Filipino just on that. And then graduating to Adobong Pusit and doing that with Adobong Pusit, then, you know, that was like being in graduate school. But you know, that's a really interesting story, Tony, because I was at a Greek restaurant a week ago and the special of the day was this fish, right? I mean, it cooked in different ways. So I said, so the waiter says, okay, oh, you want the fish, especially. Yes, I said, and do you want it filleted? I said, no, I want the whole fish. And then he goes to the other person in our table and said, how do you want it? Oh, I want it, you know, he asked for a specific kind. Okay, so he goes into the kitchen, gives the order and comes back and he says, I just wanna make sure you wanted the whole fish, right? And I said, yes, how many, okay, yes. I said the whole fish. And so I look around the table and it's a friend of ours and my husband. And I said, why doesn't he get it? And then he comes back a third time.  And then he said, yeah, you know why? I said, okay, this is a Greek restaurant. You have the option. I said, I want the whole fish because in my culture, we have the whole fish. We don't filet because the head is so crucial. And then he looks at me and says, I'm Greek. I know exactly what you're talking about. We get the head too. And I said, and he says, yeah, but you know, some of these Americans, I bring the fish and they said, well, didn't you ask for this? And I said, yeah, but I want it to filet. And I said, okay, I'm off the other camp. So three times he had to ask me. And I said, what, are you gonna be sued or something? That they're gonna be swallowing bones or something like that. Anyway. Oh, that's too funny. If I could just read something real quick off the chat, it extends beyond being Filipino. There's one of us here in the chat, it says, my wife and I read La Casa and the Manila Town Fish more times than I can remember to both of our kids. They both loved it. Neither of us has any Filipino heritage though, but through this wonderful book, my kids were learning about another culture. Also, because they grew up and lived in San Francisco, they were learning a bit of San Francisco history. We have since given the book to other couples when they start their family. And I'm sure that this person, I appreciate your comment, eats the head of the fish as well. Thank you. I appreciate your comment. Please feel free to leave more comments on the chat. Which is a, I mean, how it's affected people. I mean, the review that we had gotten from The Horn Book was really something. Because I mean, I wasn't used to too many reviews of the books that I had done.  And when the review from The Horn Book came out, it seemed like a good signifier. Let's see what it say. The first ever bilingual English dog story set in the US is as elaborately staged as a Disney 42nd Street musical, but with the shot of the Lion King as entertainment and a whole lot more authentic. Kids captured by the loopy story and the rollicking high colored bang bang pictures will get the idea without the orientation. That's the charm of the book. This is the rare wish fulfillment fantasy that teaches no lesson solves no problem. What puts it over the top though is the human element, like the silver figures of Lacoste and his daddy walking along the street with a bounce hand in hand.  It's so much of the book, once it's done, seems sort of passive where you look at it and just make sure that everything's kind of in place. But looking at this one still 20 years later, the placement of everything and reading it out loud, it still lives. And so, I mean, I think that's why people still, like at book signings, still bring it up to me and think that fish, you know, it's, I read that to my kid. I mean, and they read it to their kids, like, oh, okay, you can stop at that part. But I mean, it was, it's great to have that kind of resonance and to the point where we can actually, you know, bring it up 20 years later, you know, and it still has the same resonance as it did back then. Do we want to talk about how other people, how it impacted other people, Abe, or if anybody wants to talk about, like, how it affected them? Let's see here. Yeah, if we can, you know, we can open it up to discussion. If, you know, I think my mom is chomping at the bit to, I think my mom might want to say something. Mom, are you, I think, hey, mom, be sure that you unmute, though. Yeah, mom, I think you're going to have to hold on. Can you guys unmute her? Yeah. Hey, Carl, can you unmute my mom? Okay, it's only letting me ask. Can you unmute Carl? Try it. It's only allowing me to ask as well. Yeah, me too. Oh, there we go. I'm on a, oh, can you hear me? Yeah. No? Okay, hi, everyone. I left a message just now, and I wanted to let everyone know that I was there from the beginning, from the colic and the inception. I was there for the entire thing, yet there were things I did not know about the process. And I'm just now learning. So I'm so happy to be here and to learn about Lucille Tenaza. I didn't know, and thank you so much. This is, I was enjoying your presentation so much. And I didn't know that your involvement. And there were some things about Carl that I didn't know. So that you can learn something new every time you do this type of thing. So anyway, I'm having problems with my video. I'm having to turn it off and on. But anyway, I hope that's not too distracting. Every time there's my son, Tony, has a new book come out, it's always a very different experience and it never gets old. And Lacasse and the Manila Town Fish was the beginning of it. And I just remember being beside, it was so exciting. You know, you can imagine the first book and I as a parent was just beside me son. And just got into it. And so this 20th anniversary presentation brings back fond memories of me, of going to the contract. They sent a contract and then went, the contract was like something new back then. Since then, I've seen many contracts, but back then it was, and he sent it to me, of course, and I was all excited, everyone was excited. So I just remember, I was like, I'm excited, everyone was excited. So it's been 20 years and now the children that benefited from and enjoyed that book, they're coming back with their children. And the amazing thing about it is that it's been in print for 20 years. I don't know that anybody expected that. Yeah, for sure.  My mom will be back. I know her connection is kind of, kind of, kind of iffy. You know, to be honest with you, I was very overwhelmed by the whole thing. It just, you know, when it took place, it almost had this avalanche effect. They'd mentioned, okay, we have this wonderful artist, Carl Angel, and I was really intimidated to meet him because of the way they were really talking him up.   Or is this really happening, you know, is this real, you know? But I just remember one of the first places that they sent me to read was, it was a elementary school in Vallejo. And it was funny. I thought that I was gonna be reading to a class and I was led to the gym, nasium, where the entire student body was, you know, sitting in the rafters, they were on, you know, the benches and the whole, it was, you know, for the whole school, right? So, you know, I kind of started hyperventilating and almost kind of like passed out, but I was able to, I was able to get through it. And over time, it's been a lot more, it's been enjoyable and it's been comfortable and it's been a lot of fun. Okay, my mom's back. Somebody's gonna have to give me. Yeah, I'm having trouble in muting her. Well, in the meantime, is there anybody else that has had experience with the book, like either teaching or reading it that they'd like to share? Yeah. Oh man, my battery's going low. I wanted to shout out to Kababayan Kids. That's a Filipino story time program that's local. They've been using the book and they've been promoting children's authors, children's books by Filipino-American authors and Filipino authors. So they were in the program, they were here earlier, but had to leave to go to another program. So I wanna shout out to them. Shout out to Justine Villanueva, another Filipino book author, children's book author. My dear and old friend, Derek Yee, a San Francisco native, wanna say hello to Derek. Went to high school together, graduated 1982. So he's still holding it down in San Francisco. Wanna say hi to him and to his mother and his father as well. And also to shout out to Victoria, who's out here in Asheville area, hold it down here in North Carolina. So. Yeah, that was great. If I may say something, this is Justine. Oh, yeah. Hey, what's up, Justine? Hi, I was gonna try to raise my hand, but I didn't know how to do it. So thank you so much for this. I'm learning so much. I know I've met Tony, I haven't really met Carl or Lucille, but I just wanted to say, as I said in my chat too, that I found your book when my kids were five and three, I think, and was really blown away by the fact that there was hardly any other books out there that featured Filipino-American kids like mine. And reading your books and seeing it, seeing it actually inspired me. And so it was one of the reasons why I decided to write children's books and then also proceed with a nonprofit to continue to publish children's books that deal with multilingual texts. So I'm very happy to hear from Lucille today about working with languages and the weight of the fonts and things that I've not really thought about. And so this has been very helpful, but I mainly just wanted to say thank you because this is very inspiring for me. Hey, thank you. It's so really wonderful to hear from you, Justine, and hearing about the wonderful work that you're doing. Again, Fielly Mathias or Machas is also a children's book author as well. He wrote a wonderful book called Rebi Didu Dada. It has an anti-bullying message. It's published by Red Hawk Press out here in Hickory, North Carolina. And he has a question in the chat. He says, congrats. He says, I read both books on Lacasse. Will there be a third? We'd love to see an animated version too. So we have written a third and we have submitted it to Leon Loh and we have yet to hear back, but we're hoping it's a third installment of the Lacasse series to make it a trilogy. So we would ask that if there's a demand for it, hey, yeah, let's put an ask out there, you know? For sure, yeah. Tony, I also saw that Sesame Street has a Filipino-American puppet now. Yeah, I think Lacasse is better looking actually. But yeah, I thought he could read the book though. Oh yeah, that would be cool. Hey, you know what? That's a damn good idea. Thank you, thank you. You know what? Hell yeah. Thank you, I appreciate it. Appreciate that. Another shout out to Lorna Dietz, very good friend. Hilary Stern from Vermont College of Fine Arts, Alma Mater, thank you for coming out. Really appreciate you being present. Also Angela Angel, everybody that came out here, really appreciate sharing this afternoon. Oh yeah, beautiful afternoon, great. Wonderful talk, all of you folks. Tony, were you still gonna try and do an anniversary read? Yeah, I mean, if you guys will have me, that is if you guys will have me, I'll do it. Oh, wanna shout out, and this is an important shout out, okay? Before I get into the reading, wanna shout out to my girlfriend who's here. Her name is Beverly Pereno, and she has a book launch coming up on Saturday, May the 27th at the Filipinos Cultural Center in San Francisco. And the book is a wonderful collection of short stories called Wild Flowers, Stories by Beverly Pereno. There's some very, very powerful works and very, very powerful themes. And if you're in town and you got time to check it out, I will put, actually, I'll put this in the chat, but if you're interested, the website is wildflowersbp, as in Beverly Pereno, wildflowersbp.com, and it has all the information. The reading will include folks like Veronica Montez, Eileen Casanero, yours truly, and Tanim Ansari. And again, it'll be to the 27th of May in San Francisco, and the book is called Wild Flowers. Oh, that's great. So you're coming out to SF next week? Yeah, definitely there. And the book is published by Pawa, P-A-W-A, stands for Philippine American Artists and Writers. But anyway, this is the book, and I'll hopefully it'll fit on all of you, it'll fit on all of your screens. And much love to Lucille, and of course to Carl, and to everybody that made this book a reality. My grandparents, of course, I couldn't do anything without my mother. It's really my mother that I get my writing ability from. It's from her, actually. I love you, mom, thank you. And anyway, this is- Love you, son. Okay, okay, so this is it, okay. One night, Lacoste dreamed he was playing in the park. He swung high on a swing. He ran fast in the grass. The sun shone down on him. Lacoste heard a voice call him, Oi, Oi, Filipino boy. Lacoste looked around to see who it was. Again, the voice said, Oi, Oi, Filipino boy. Across the grass was a manong sitting on a bench. The manong was a really old man. He wore a hat. He was feeding crumbs to the birds. Lacoste walked over to the manong and asked, did you call me?  Lacoste looked at the manong's old brown face. He asked, how did you know I am a Filipino boy?  Do you like fish? Yes, said Lacoste. Did you ever meet a fish that can talk? The manong asked. No, said Lacoste. The manong laughed. I know a fish that can speak Tagalog and English and he jumps around and plays just like you. Lacoste was amazed. I wanna see this fish, can I? The manong smiled at Lacoste and said, the fish lives in Manilatown. If you want to find him, you have to look very carefully. Lacoste asked the manong, where is Manilatown? The sun came down on Lacoste's face. He blinked and when he looked again, the manong was nowhere to be seen. When Lacoste woke up from his dream, his dad was cooking a gourmet breakfast, hot dogs and rice. Lacoste ate his breakfast. He thought about his dream. Daddy, can fish talk? Daddy smiled. No, fish can only swim. Daddy, can you buy me a fish? Lacoste asked. Lacoste looked at, Daddy looked at Lacoste and said, yes Lacoste, we'll get a fish, but first you need a haircut and off they went to the barber shop. In Tagalog, it's a bahok, right? The hair, right? But anyway, in the barber shop, there were four manongs. They were all old, as old as the manong in Lacoste's dream. One of them had bright red hair. The barber sat Lacoste in the barber's chair. Oy, oy, Filipino boy, my daddy wants to give me a fish. Lacoste told the barber. The barber said, I like fish with rice and tomatoes and chili peppers. Lacoste shivered. He didn't want to eat the fish. Lacoste asked the barber, can fish talk and walk and play? Yes, there is one fish that can do it. The barber said, his shears went, snip, snip, go to Manilatown and you will find that crazy fish, said the barber. But the red-haired manong said, no, do not listen to him. You do not want to find a fish like that. Just then the manong sneezed and his red wig fell off. Be quiet, your mouth, the barber said. Lacoste, if you just keep looking, you will find the fish. Lacoste and his daddy left the barber shop. They walked and walked. They were looking for a fish, the sun shone on both of them. Lacoste wondered, could this be Manilatown? They walked some more and soon they came to the happy fish market. Daddy and Lacoste walked inside. Fish were everywhere on top of tables and swimming in tanks. All of the fish looked very sad, all except one. Lacoste heard a voice from the fish tank. Oi, oi, Filipino boy. Lacoste looked at the fish in the tank. Oi, oi, said the fish again. Hmm, Lacoste said, this fish could talk. The manong in my dream said, I was just like a fish. Lacoste said, I'll ask my daddy to buy you and take you home so we could play. Daddy was busy talking to the happy fishman. Give me that fish in the tank. I will take him home and cook sinigang. Lacoste shivered. He did not want to eat the fish. The happy fishman dipped his net into the tank. Suddenly the fish jumped out and gave him a big wet kiss. The happy fishman fell dizzy in love. The fish ran off the door and towards Kearney Street. Come back, dear fish, said the happy fishman. Come back, fish Lacoste said. Come back, dinner, said daddy. The happy fishman chased after the fish. Lacoste chased after the fish. Daddy chased after the fish. They all chased after the fish who was heading towards a city bus. The bus had a sign that said Manila Town. The fish jumped on the bus. He gave the driver a big wet kiss. The bus driver fell dizzy in love. She fell out of her seat in surprise. The fish jumped in her seat. He drove off with her bus. Follow that bus, daddy said. Follow my fish, Lacoste said. Lacoste, daddy, and the happy fishman all ran after the bus, which was zooming down Kearney Street. Brim toot. The fish drove and drove through the heart of Manila Town. Passed the International Hotel and passed the Lucky M Pool Hall. They drove past the Silver Wing Cafe and the Bataan Drug Store. The bus stopped, screech. All of a sudden, the fish jumped off the bus. He ran down Kearney Street. He came to a Manong standing on the street corner. The fish gave the Manong a big wet kiss. The Manong fell dizzy in love. The fish took off with his hat, his shirt, his pants, and his teeth. The Manong was left nothing, was left wearing nothing, but his fish, print. Underwear. Underwear. Lacoste, daddy, and the happy fishman ran up to the Manong. They were huffing and puffing. Lacoste took the Manong's hand. Don't worry, Manong, we'll get your clothes back and your teeth. Lacoste put, daddy put Lacoste on his shoulders. The happy fishman was tired from running, so daddy put him on his shoulders too. The Manong was not tired, but daddy gave him a piggyback ride anyway. The fish ran down Kearney Street, all the way down Columbus Avenue and all the way to the bay. Give me another kiss, the happy fishman called. Give me my clothes, the Manong called, and give me back my teeth. The fish jumped into the water. Daddy couldn't stop. He ran right into the water. Splash. The Manong did a flip and fell into the water first. The happy fishman held his nose and hit the water. Lacoste and daddy splashed, holding hands. Help, help, cried Lacoste. The water is so cold, cried daddy. Gurgle, gurgle, cried the happy fishman and the Manong together. The fish heard them. He pulled daddy and Lacoste out of the water. He pulled the happy fishman and the Manong out of the water. They all sat and shivered on the ground. The fish gave the Manong back his pants, his hat and his teeth. Then he wrapped the Manong's shirt around Lacoste. The sun warmed their skin. And when everybody was nice and warm, daddy said, who's hungry? I am, said the happy fishman. I am, said the Manong. Oi, oi, me too, Filipino boy, said the fish. I guess that means no fish stew for dinner, said daddy. Lacoste, the fish both nodded their heads, yes. And they spent the rest of the afternoon eating plain rice and pancit and adobo and tomatoes and chili peppers. Oh, and playing in the bathtub with the fish. And that is the end of the book. That is a good book for you.  Thank you, Tony. Yeah, that was great. So Tony, where'd you get the fish avatar that you kept? Oh, you know what? This lady, this young lady named Thea, who lives in Southern California, she made this 27 years ago, 20 years ago she made this. I got in touch with her, invited her, I wasn't able to make it, but she said that she's gonna make another one of these. So, but it stood the test of time. I haven't had to put it on ice. I haven't had to freeze it. And most importantly, you did not have to eat it.  Hey, Tony, hi everyone, this is Beverly, I'm sorry I'm off camera, but Tony, when he moved from San Francisco to North Carolina in 2019, he actually couldn't bring the fish because his bags were full and I said, just leave the fish here, I'll take care of the fish. And so when I traveled to North Carolina, I hand carried the fish because I didn't want to make, I want to make sure that nothing happened to it. So you can imagine how many people were staring at me in the airport and in my connection. Everyone would just look at the fish and look at me, look at the fish and look at me. But yeah, I got him back in the way to North Carolina. That's a good idea for a story actually. Yeah. There's a story there, man. That's great. It was well worth all the stairs given at you. Yeah. They probably offered the fish a job with Homeland Security. Next thing you know, you'll be at the airport checking people in. So here we are at 232. Right on, yeah. You want some more messages or thoughts you guys like to share before we end? Well, I mean, for me, just a couple of things, first a shout out to all my Hawaii folk here, Lawrence, Angela, and friends from Virginia, Richard, Tiffany, thank you for attending and everybody else. Thank you, Evan, thank you for attending. But in general, just thank you, Tony, for this story. Thank you, Steele, for your visual wisdom and guidance and helping this book be such a special experience in my life. And also just to say just a profound thank you to everybody who this book has had an effect on, whether it's reading to your kids or just for yourselves.  And you start thinking of those communities of people who we stand on the shoulders of and who are no longer with us, but we remember them through stories and affection and love and to pay tribute to them in as many ways as possible. And Tony, you did a fantastic job with capturing the spirit of our community. And I just feel really privileged and just grateful that I was able to be part of it. And for me, my own personal, in terms of professional, the work with Steele is just incredible. I still can't believe that that happened. But I'm grateful. Thank you. I think I just wanted to say that it's 20 years. It's the longevity of this book is pretty spectacular. And I really want to thank you both. And I think, you know, 20 years, if I recall, you know, going back 20 years ago, what, you know, what this book meant at the time, it was pivotal from the point of view of being the first children's book for me, the first bilingual book. And of course, the other language was my native language, even more meaningful.  And I just love the fact that, you know, I don't know if it was Ina or Harriet who suggested that we put our picture in the back and that they credited me, the designer, because they normally do not. They only put the, they usually put the author's name picture. But I purposely chose a picture. In fact, I had a friend of mine photograph me with my two sons because it was something that related to who they were. So I think that's very special. So thank you. And thank you to all those people who gave comments. And let's look for the third book. Yeah. Or the animated version, right? Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of stories to be told from the community. And it goes, I mean, even beyond an obvious grad, commercially, but I mean, just there's so much heart and so much warmth and that the community has to offer through our stories.  And nothing beats a reading by the author in the right accent. Yeah. You may, may I add, in the most authentic accent, and I think you'll do your uncle proud.  Like, you know, he would call me and he would say, I'd say, hello.  Say, Uncle Al, I don't galavan. Hey, you know, I'm on the straight and narrow, man. I don't galavan no more. But yeah, we do want to do a third one.  So we're hoping that, you know, they'll run with it.  Yeah. You know, I just, it's kind of unbelievable, really, in all honesty, you know. But yeah, I mean, I didn't have this much gray on my goatee when I wrote it. And I, so that's the barometer, you know.  So the, you know, the lesson is still kind of there of you thank institutions like that and pioneers who had the foresight to want to create a children's literature of inclusion.  So, you know, all kudos to them and having that type of vision and that willing to work with communities of color to bring out their stories, you know. For sure. Yeah. So, I don't know, do you want to show we end? I hate to end, it's always great hearing you read, Tony. Hey, thank you. Thank you. You know, no, it's not the phone book. Yeah, we look forward to hopefully get the third book out and maybe you guys should bring back the whole A team again, the three of you. That would be wonderful.  So, we're hoping that we can get that.  And then also Fielli, Machas or Matthias, Rebi, Didu, Dara, really important message, anti-bullying. So very, very beautiful book.  So, this was another book that came out recently as well. This is a very, very good book. I wish I had this coming up. Tagalog Activities for Kids, Stephanie Castillo Braulio and McKenley Santos and Diane Kay are the editors or the authors of this book. Very practical activities for children, very interactive, you know, for the entire family. And this is a wonderful book. Kababayan Kids, another one. There's another one called Seattle Storytime that focuses on Filipino American children's storytelling and authors. So, you know, it's definitely out there, you know? Yeah, yeah. So Abe, you said this, it looks like you're recording this and we can access this at some point through the website of the public library. Yeah, and the SFPL has its own YouTube page, so if you type in SFPL YouTube, it'll pop up eventually. Maybe, you know, it might take a few days a week or so that the powers that be will kind of get it on there. Okay, okay. Yeah, so it'll be preserved for posterity on our SFPL YouTube page as long as we have the internet and whatever, whatever. Thank you. Yeah, no, thank you three for joining us and everyone who came tonight this afternoon. Last minute shout out to Alec Davis. Thanks for coming, brother. Okay. Much love to everybody. Mom, thank you, Beverly. Yeah. Derek, my man from high school, Derek. Much love and I appreciate you coming. Tell your mom and dad I said hi. Hillary Stern, Victoria, everybody. Much love to you. Lorna, Fielly, everybody. Lucille, Carl. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, everyone have a great afternoon. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye, everyone. Bye, mom. Bye. Take care. Good afternoon.


Anthony Steven Callan, the Brainerd man Meeker County authorities have been searching for last week, has been found and arrested. 38-year-old Callan is being held in Meeker County jail, pending charges of domestic assault, felon in possession of a firearm, and possession of a stolen vehicle. He also has outstanding warrants in Crow Wing County, Sherbourne, and Renville counties. Callan was involved in a lengthy standoff at a home just north of Litchfield, with Meeker County deputies last Thursday, December 27th. Authorities say the standoff continued into the evening when Callan fled under the covers of darkness. Deputies say a stolen vehicle, ammunition, and drug paraphernalia were recovered from the home. The Sheriff's Office is continuing the investigation where Callan was after he eluded authorities. Anyone with information on Callan's activities is asked to contact the Meeker County Sheriff's Office. If you enjoyed this segment of Lakeland News, please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to Lakeland PBS.