to you'll have a better experience if you play dark souls instead of the clone and if we convince everyone of that we can achieve the goal it's like is that what you you would suggest that we do in order to make ethical concerns i guess realized is focus on telling people that there's a better product even if it's not true even as a fucking lie would that be worth it because of the ethical goal underlying it if so i mean hey you know that could be a solution not one that i'd be particularly fond of that we have to lie to everybody to get people doing ethical consumption but uh hey healthier or and doesn't you know i'm not sure they they could also think that it uh it tastes better that's the reason why they buy organic food many organic all of those reasons yes all those many different reasons yes yeah could be which feels like it's a counter to his general point but i guess it isn't and feel like they're doing a good thing i'm sure those people exist but i don't think that they are the majority i think that they are a i think it's again a five percent because you're right but i don't think that's the majority the perception is what matters the perception is what creates value not the actual product no it's the no it isn't you can't say that after you spend all this time saying the only thing that matters is what people will pay for it yeah um and i'm actually going and doing that this could be semantic now it's perception yeah like like well you know like me if i play a game a million times over and then i declare what its quality is like yeah but that's your perception i'd be like my puts well like yes but like it's informed by and it's like yeah but still you're some perception i'm not doing it because it's my like just like my perception is because i can verify it through all these other other means i feel like perception should be saved more so for when i say what the game is and then rags maybe repeats that later and it's like that's just rags perception because he hasn't played it that could be a a stronger way to use that word it feels weird to say you know someone like analyzes everything down to the individual fucking molecules of a thing and then says well it's your perception that it's those things it's like yeah well it's your perception that oxygen is hydrogen and you know whatever but so right water is hydrogen and oxygen is like could be anything it is my perception but it is also reality yeah i was going to say that kind of fucks that quote up doesn't it that's why people buy supreme more people now care about products made locally reality is perception is reality or within their country i feel generally i feel like people generally buy feel good labeled things organic made locally ethically sourced fair trade etc because they think they're making a difference my entire point is that i think in recent years more people don't seem to care or sorry more people seem to care about how things are made or where they're from i think that you're right in the context that the alternative is the same so like you're buying the same product but this one is more ethically made why would you want to buy an unethical product if you could just simply buy an ethical product instead so well some people choose not to buy it at all that even if there is no alternative some people just say i'll go without mm-hmm happens all the time i mean there's plenty of like a video game might come out and then i hear that you know some bad thing about it or it's from a particular company and i want to support it or whatever and so i'm like well i that i i'm choosing to forgo having the experience of this game that is not going to be replicated by any other game and that's just fine so be it and people that is a choice that i'm making boycotts have been mentioned as well just about uh i was thinking about like the epic store so whenever the game gets snatched up by them it's like well that's off the list of play and then at least from the yeah pretty much yeah really the difference is that people are not willing to spend money or they are not willing to consume an inferior product in the pursuit of this because i agree with your product if it's more ethical yeah because he's saying now that yes the organic thing happens but only when you're moving from something he's basically saying your two choices are the same experience of consumption but the one is unethical so of course you go for the ethical one and it's like well a lot of people will do it whether or not that's the case this is where i mean we've already been over this and you seem to agree with it earlier that's not the only playable factor that this is true people would prefer to do something ethical but most people don't actually want to have that cost them anything the moment that it costs them anything to do something ethical then it stops happening that's just not true charity kills that whole concept yes you're biased in this discussion because you're slipping on bazooka-sized coca-cola instead of real food um wow really annoyed him i think i don't even think there's any value to that argument that like he can't speak on this because he's biased because he drinks coca-cola i was like that was nothing to do with anything but i just i guess i'm amused by how much he's just like what he's very annoyed by that what i didn't know coca-cola was like i don't understand and i don't understand that i was fanta right i thought that was fanta right i have no idea i didn't make a note of which one he was drinking yeah okay organic isn't healthier though i can't i enjoyed that reaction oftentimes it is yeah oftentimes it's healthier well i guess well they he's already addressed that the whole um as long as they believe it that's his that's his point of view is like as long as they would believe that then they would be good whether you think that it's healthier or not i just asked chat and most people think that it is perception becomes reality in the eyes of a consumer that's my point i think i think this guy perception becomes reality then you shouldn't discount you know things that change people's minds are there yeah i don't know how you can say this after all that you've said you're there's just too many instances of a small voice changing everything for an item on the market uh you know snowball effects sort of stuff again yeah i think that people will do something ethical if it if it's free they'll like a tweet so i don't know those people do things that are ethical that are not free at all yeah some people are not willing to really make big sacrifices yes some people are not willing to do that some people are yeah they'll change their flag they'll change their profile picture oh yeah someone said a small voice doesn't change shit on the market mostly like yeah there you go as long as we suck at them cavities and everyone could agree sometimes they do sure to a flat and that i would never want to discourage anyone from pointing out unethical practices you go right ahead and hopefully it'll make a difference but that's about it i get what he's trying to say but it just illustrates that some people prioritize video games as a product and not human expression i know he doesn't think that they're artistic or meaningful but it's clear at least in this context all that matters is product and its function well it depends on the person because for some people they might view AI art and something that was created through AI as a form of human expression in the same way that photography is a form of human expression even though you're using a camera to create the image so i don't necessarily think that you can just you i don't think you can define this and just say like nobody else can see it this way because i think again anybody can see it however way they choose to and i'll play games to see art i do it to have fun well it depends on what people want to do uh some people see them as art some people don't but at the end they are games are odd well wait it's not just that it's the the the poster i imagine is saying that we should probably encourage people to see them more as art than product yeah which i mean yeah generally generally speaking as long as it's not like ever in mind yeah well it's you got to bear in mind the dynamics that are at play there there is a company that's trying to make money and then there's you with your own interests and that there should be a there should be an amount of push and pull there right like it shouldn't you shouldn't just roll over and allow any publisher to get away with any business practice that they want to employ to get more money out of you yeah what i what i have to get at was like it is something that you're buying if you have you know your friend who works all day every day and comes home plays games doesn't really consider the artistry involved in it but doesn't like you know disparage any of it they just want to play and you're like yeah that's totally chill it's fine but if you have someone who's like oh you play your little video game oh pew pew oh cute you just like this is like a told me it's not odd you just said that like do you even know what the industry behind this is with they were just like oh look at you go the day um i know he doesn't think they are artistic or meaningful well i think that there are some games that are and i appreciate those games but if i found out that like a game that i thought was very artistic or meaningful was created with ai that would not have like if i find out like some robot made this i would not immediately dislike that game i still would have gotten the same thing out of the game that it might even make me find more pieces of meaning to think a robot constructed the thing i found meaning in but like i said and i think most people agree it changes your perception of the creator behind it if they were like if they were like a game director you're like oh you did it with ai okay yeah i did before i knew that so uh this is also a post i watched or is some is something that people have highlighted the difference between appreciating skill and appreciating the meaning you get from a piece of art it's like two different fields that are happening at once and can be crossed over a little bit maybe in these conversations i read a little bit i want i want to go over like i'm almost about halfway done with these i encountered this issue this is a response from a person who was uh i guess like a guy with opera i encountered this issue a lot whenever it came to outreach of opera and getting a wider audiences to be curious about opera most don't care it's true what he says is right most consumers do not care about artistry they don't care about the deeper meaning for why something is made does it run does it play well is it fun that's what matters the most what if they classified that as artistry you know why i was obviously artistry game design is artistry it's funny you say that because i think a lot of people will be like no i'm not talking about artistry i just mean does it work yeah like as in is the programming good to see the artistry of the coding of the the artistry exactly is it functional people need to stop thinking about art is like oh well art is like when i see it the art is also the game design and the programming well you can tell in the way that this guy is making this point um that we've created a dichotomy here that i don't think i think this is actually damaging he's like you know a lot of people aren't looking for some deep meaning and it's like whoa whoa whoa it's not it's not like you have to when you play a game and appreciate its artwork you don't have to go as far as saying like what does this say about life like no you can just be like wow look at the way they made that that looks like me i like this i like how these things kind of look like they were you know that's cool i like the way that looks i like this you know that looks i like the sound you know like the soundtrack of this game or something like that not you know yeah exactly you don't have to you don't have to go too deep like chill you know you could appreciate things on you know it's a spectrum like a lot of stuff you can engage with stuff on many levels so is it as almost impossible not to be an artist by this metric you mean when designing a video game game design is the art like i don't know what to say game design is creative it's full of expression and it's full of like literal the construction of objects digitally and voices and soundtracks and music there's all pieces of art in art like in a video game or or just the music like people wanting to create a meaningful competitive experience when i design my bread recipe is that odd gordon ramsey is an artist like when you're when you're making this this this like excellent best of the best food that's odd absolutely sure i mean and and with the film nobody argues that film is an art oh wow i was about to say look through look through history and what you see is the gradual acceptance of different art forms it's like there was a time where film was seen as like gross okay okay sure but like i agree with you guys like but but with the art example it's like you have a main character who's put through a situation they're doing this thing they're doing that thing the only difference with the game is that you i mean you're still operating within a basic framework of like go here and you sit you pass the level and you go to the next level right but like it's you're still being put through a scenario and making choices and there's an artistic sort of end goal right absolutely yeah no i wasn't we weren't saying it to disagree with you saying to essentially support the point in a more interesting way that even once upon a time yeah you know we're more interesting than you that was a good conclusion i took yeah so the discussion between a i and r is frankly isn't something that most people care about uh not only because it doesn't affect them but because they simply aren't aware it keeps returning to this over and over like it it's it's the it's backdoor he'd always retreat into this well most people don't care about this thing and like okay okay we heard you for 17 times i promise you we heard that he's probably even right with with the concept that generally in a very general sense most people don't think about these things right like if we're just saying that um most people who buy cell phones are not thinking about the child labor when they're buying cell phone that is why i buy that um well i mean i think it keeps them off the streets which makes sense yeah i think it's a bit of a bobbing between positions because of the words being used like remember what he went viral for was saying artists don't matter or artists opinions don't matter which there's so many ways to interpret more so of what the fuck has been said there compared to what he could have said apparently which was just the the um the minority opinion doesn't typically affect the consumption of a product which nobody's going to disagree with that if you were to press him on that i yeah like i think you were saying earlier molly like i don't think he actually thinks that but like what he needs to be more clear with what exactly that he's saying like these clips that are going around where like he because these clips of him went viral and then he did this response video and you can sort of sum it up as him basically doubling down on his position saying like i am right you guys are wrong and the truth will always prevail it's just okay so you do think that artists opinions don't matter but like he needs to narrow his focus and specify exactly what it is but he would argue to you that he was clipped out of context but uh i just don't know that it was ever a good quote even with context you know it's it's not a quote that communicates his ideas very well yeah i know i don't think it was ever a good quote even in context there is an element of you know obviously the opinion of the artist determines what it is that people will be buying so no i'd say that it doesn't matter is like it's retarded you know he needs to rephrase his ideas for sure i think yeah know why a painting takes weeks they do see an individual brush strokes of the Monet or the way the pieta was carved what they care about is the result is this bad does this matter maybe maybe not but artists in a different category artists but artists are in a different category artists are in the work or expressions and i also think that Monet was in Monet was an impressionist right like he's the one that did the water lilies after i think world war one or two and a lot of people he was like one of the big guys right for that well people criticized him too people were shitting on him as well he's a big guy yeah he was like you you recognize a lot of his paintings as i said yeah that's just saying the artist yeah what's this in service of pointing out that he would have been criticized well i was about to suggest and i was like wait i'll let him continue my mom was very into art she educated me in a lot of these things myself they copied them yes yes they did towards the end of his life he was actually blind almost blind this way it's where special glasses you know he's still able to make a lot of the art that at least people see now and so yeah there it is legendary artists from france yeah yeah he had like a uh i think he had like a personal relationship with the prime minister at the time and he offered to paint the lilies as a commemoration of the end of the world war and so yeah no i i know what he's talking about and you know even in his time he had the same criticism on him the same thing what same thing not sure what he means exactly um yeah i'm not sure what the criticism is that he's saying is the same here and so uh this inherently stems from the lack of education or limited education in any sense i actually don't think that's the case i think that everybody knows that clothes are made from like a lot of the a lot of the produce that we consume has been just talking about something different than the person that's talking about i think that there's um i think that classes that are like music and art appreciation can open people up to things they wouldn't have otherwise explored and i think that's kind of stuff is important you do want to kind of broaden people's horizons and not just let them just just stick with the same thing over and over especially in more formative years telling them about all the different styles that are to music about all the different you know in history we have all these different kinds of you know art you know you have money and uh gosh what's another artist there's so many i can't even think of any he's probably the only one but you all the different styles the chiara skewer and things like that it's it's important it really is um i remember my art and music classes from grade school learning about people that's where i learned about claud monne um and frida collo and you know all sorts of stuff i wouldn't i might not have learned about that stuff if it wasn't for classes and i and i do sympathize with the idea that yeah like people i wonder how much people discover something like opera in a quote unquote natural way and actually like get engaged with it um i think symphonies are also a thing where how many people it's it's almost um incidentally compartmentalized maybe that's a way to describe it where if you don't but you know it's not something you brush up against it's not you have to kind of go out of your way to experience a symphony in person well you do have to go out of your way to experience a symphony in person you have to buy tickets and you have to go there and you have to you know listen to it and stick around and that's just not going to be an experience that a lot of people even maybe think about doing which is you know it's a shame because it's not like any other musical experience really so it's a waste of time kids can barely do math to begin with is like well that that's just quality of education rather than they're in school for eight hours a day they better they better learn more than one fucking thing i was just gonna say like make math fun then like that's a big problem educations have is uh they make everything fucking boring it's funny because i like maths when i was in school especially when you can see yourself getting better it is when they introduced trigonometry that i was like oh you ruined it oh yeah i had problems with that too that was tough yeah there was like there was a there was that point where math stopped being fun and interesting and i'm like this is work yeah it was like yeah like when disney both star wars you know it's like oh what the fuck's going on what are you doing yeah i was good at algebra and then i had to do like proofs and shit i'm like oh my god like i had such a hard time with that um but what what rags was saying about broadening your horizons absolutely i mean to for a personal example uh specifically within film like when i was a kid i had watched a lot of like cartoons and cartoon movies and then all of a sudden i had watched train spotting perhaps you at a younger age than i should have watched it and i was just like holy fucking shit dude like that blew my mind and it got me thinking of the medium in an entirely different way i'm just like oh cinema can't doesn't have to be just this one thing it could be anything right and then it just got me like thinking about it way more it's probably one of the reasons why i decided to go into it like the you know as like an art form yeah because it just magnified my interest all of a sudden well so if we have uh the original thing of you know the the the thing on pal will drive doesn't doesn't matter what people's opinions on and this guy responds with i think it's a matter of education and then as my goal is talking about actually i think people mostly know about and then uses the example of sweatshops and stuff the reason why i think rags is right for the initial commentary is that um there may be maybe everyone does know about the sweatshops thing as a factoid i don't know how many people know about like the fucking ethics of ai generated material in video games i don't i don't know i feel like that's yeah it's like children working long hours for virtually no pay and terrible condition yeah it's pretty easy to understand why that is very it doesn't take much to convince most people that that's yeah that's probably something that we shouldn't encourage um it's a very relatable made it is produced by workers that are working in conditions that if this was american workers that were american citizens this would not be acceptable how many of you guys are because they're non-american i think it's in a way yes and in a way no in a way yes and that if they are american they're probably gonna be a lot more closer to you and a lot more involved in your life if you are from america right but that's almost because just the natural byproduct of yeah if they're in the same country as you then they're probably much more relatable and closer to you and their existence in your country can impact your life in a more meaningful way right and also there's like the kinship of you know countrymen and things of that nature but if someone is you know in india in some sweatshop in some village that you never think about or know about anyway then then it's like it's not about them not being american it's that they're on the other side of the planet and they don't impact me in any way whatsoever well someone said they dislike the idea of broadening horizons related to going to the opera and it's like what if people just didn't like it it's like that's fine if you went if you gave it a shot and didn't like it horizon broadened doesn't think it's it's most of just encouraging people to experience more sure even if i didn't like something it would get me thinking about it you know like what would have done better like what like under what conditions would i have liked this thing that i didn't like you know sure know that everybody knows that i don't i mean are people not buying produce because of that no i don't think so i i don't think so at all let's talk about mining ore here let's let's put it a lot of this it's about the it's the apathy test um so it's the apathy test is like um if you did go to the grocery store and in the aisle with all of the produce there were two heads of lettuce there all wrapped up for you and one of them was just a normal head of lettuce and the other one said this head of lettuce you know let's say it was ten cents uh cheaper but it said yeah this this was made using you know child slave labor in alabama because no one fucking cares about alabama and it's yeah and it was full of suffering and misery and the children were not paid and they're gonna be enslaved for the rest of their life right i think few people would choose that one over the other one even though it's you know ten cents more but also it's because they're both right there in front of you you just pick up one instead of picking up the other the cost distinction is virtually non-existent so that even if it's sort of a distant thing it sort of hits that you know that level of i do care yeah that means it was summarized as proximity right yeah yeah it's that and if you just if you give people two virtually identical options for something and it's an equal amount of effort for both of them then they will probably side with the one that's more ethical if that's the only difference well that's something that has my goal said earlier but uh he believes that explains the times that people actually do it um meanwhile i think we would be able to decision that people go way further than that yeah a lot of the times they do yeah yeah but mining ore is like it's it's a newer one i think that the produce is better unless you're extremely poor in my case uh and you don't have right certain areas finding of money you don't have anyone to represent you yeah sure most of that they just want to pretend yeah exactly nikey's terrible for child labor still gonna buy those kicks exactly uh because money's everything dude that's all that matters uh to the piggy banks well it's also not just money if for example the the produce that was made by americans was worse and it tasted worse people wouldn't buy it they'd buy the ones that was made by third or second world slaves or workers that are getting paid two dollars an hour so yeah no it's not just money it's money and quality uh let's keep going here so the thing about that i feel like isn't being entertained though is the thing we mentioned earlier about how a lack of funds would change your ethical system slightly as in like i can't try to be more caring of people who are being forced to make it in some other place when i can't even survive myself you know what i mean but that hasn't been entertained much at all but no i don't think that it's education because i think that people know these things and they choose to ignore them how do they know these things they want the thing how do you think they uh how do you think they know them you like more um some people see a flower and they say oh a flower somebody else sees a flower and says oh wow look a bee is floating around it it's giving light to the flower and a flower in it yeah and other people say oh wow look at that people love that the bee it's near the flower and it might sting me yeah of course uh i don't know if it stems from nature or nurture people born more sensitive or desire to create you most people have never been stung by bee but everyone knows that a bee will sting you you have to teach people things you do have to educate people yeah there's almost like um you don't just teach people things so they can draw a deep meaning out of something you almost have to teach them how would you draw a deep meaning out of things or just how to know the thing period how to recognize a thing even exists there's like the sweatshop stuff and and all sorts of things about art and how you engage with art and even knowing that there are different forms of art than what you're used to yeah like you have to education is how people know these things you can't say well you don't have to educate them about that they know about it it's like well that's how they know about it i mean i i think it you know that it's both uh in the studio gilby movie spirited away no face represents many things uh but to me he's always represented consumption more and more and more feed me and that's the danger of being purely a consumer uh one becomes an empty shell one with purpose um i disagree with this the danger of being purely a consumer i think this guy brings up a great point but i don't think that a person who lives a very stressful and difficult life is at danger of being a consumer this is a person whose life has multiple many facets to it and ethically consuming bananas is not one of them that's just simply all there is to it yeah i feel like this is a bit of a remix on some of the more they concerned heavily and in a depth a meaningful way with a lot of things in their life but they're just not with with you know the way they eat their fruit they're just not yeah if you have yeah if you have a really tough life then you think less about the little things no matter what debates like this can go on forever and ever neither side is right or wrong well one side certainly does have the argument of this is what it sure seems like people are doing though don't they that's not an argument that's all i'm trying to say this sure seems like people sure seem to be doing this one thing a whole lot okay just right it's actually making a suitable into an actual condescending argument about people that don't agree with this good viewing consumerism and why people don't agree to get them one becomes an empty shell one with purpose i don't think that people's purpose is or is not about consumerism people can have a purpose that is completely devoid of how they process or produce or consume any product um that'd be the world we live in what we'll head to but it's always be it will say as much as i agree with that that you you can it could just be like they don't have to care but it's like but if you know you're gonna want them to every time if they if they just influences how they behave and what they do yeah they could be like you know that that analogy out of the the friend that just plays games indefinitely believe if you came home and played uh ray shadow legends for example we'd be like whoa man like i know you don't care but don't play that play play like a fucking real game like you could be like dude i don't care you like no no no i get it i get what you're saying but like just just go like mong out on a game that's way better than that i'm just saying the artist and i think like really this guy's point is is really that the first paragraph right is he's saying that like you know as much as we want people to care about opera people don't care about opera and that's all there is to it all the games you have in play up warcraft or handcrafted by that's not all there is to it like so why do people why do some people care about it and some people don't wait if you're if you're wanting to expand opera like i i don't think that you would just be like well some people care about some people don't and that's just how it is like well shit don't try to change anything ever yeah as with every sector and everything related to everything there's a way you try to understand what gets people interested and then you try to uh you know get weird out essentially yeah i don't get this attitude it's it's like bizarre to me like well it's just the way it is moving on but the wider world you spat on your talent hard work and assumed their irrelevance even though it's these artists who craft the world that you and your viewers get lost in worlds that ai could not conjure up by itself true um the thing is what you said is somewhat ironic that people buying the product often judge it based on how it looks opinions aren't irrelevant our opinion experiences and lives and influence uh and lives often influence the world to enjoy that's right uh that's very true and so and i responded back to this and i said this right uh i said you're absolutely right uh but the value of those things exist because people like me say it does the reason why world of warcraft is massively not necessarily is not because artists made it it's because people bought it they would have never made the almost get into like a chicken and the egg so that's what's gotta be evoked by the exact same thing it's like well which one comes first you know you're not successful because you made a thing good it's successful because people liked it you're like people bought the thing that you made it almost like we're splitting it up well imagine i said it's not because people liked it it's because people paid for it and this one said no it's not because people paid for it it's because you received the money for it you'd be like what are you doing it's like why you split it up like this i was like well what is the root cause burning crusade if people didn't buy the game that's the truth is that the customer drives the production and the customer creates the value customer drives production and creates value sort of the thing about it is we've talked about a million times over like there are things that didn't even get released for X amount of time and it's like what doesn't have value until it's released like no but if you're talking strictly of a market value then i guess you have to be right because yeah this is his problem he needs to be more specific because that's why everyone keeps assuming the worst of what he's saying yeah he's a he's a very bad communicator for a streamer on this topic sure this is there to put something out there but it's up to the customer to decide whether it's worth buying or worth looking at or not it's a buyer's market what you just said is dumb as fuck what about it is dumb i think a lot of the artists on twitter get mad because they don't like the idea that their hard work isn't important to the people playing does it work is it fun yes then they'll care if not before it does matter but it matters because people like it if people didn't like it then it wouldn't matter i just can't wait to make people ai and take jobs away from gondoliers they'll never hear about how bad ai is for everyone i'm just gonna preface by saying that i understand that ai as a tool is useful and be can utilize but it can be utilized by artists to create better art but to equate art as value for just being a product is like the argument that people made a while ago about games as a product versus a service i'm not sure i'm understanding what you mean by that but i'll go ahead and i'll talk about this so art fundamentally is subjectively valued why is it that the Mona Lisa is worth so much money there's there's not really a way that you can discern how much money this painting is worth without looking at its subjective value and that's the same with any painting or any type of art that's the beauty of art is that it serves no intrinsic purpose but the subjective value that it has in the hearts and minds of is it is substantial if it's good right if people like it but what i'm saying is that just because you perceive a value in something doesn't mean that it has intrinsic value in a market like for example intrinsic value in a market well i mean but i'm not even i'm if you perceive something that's having value that can influence the market if you like well and then i'll pay that much for it right yeah that's kind of interesting right because you could be like a billion billion people like the thing that's what gave it value not your individual interest and it's like but what if that individual paid the rights owner more than that billion people paid in terms of yeah in the sense that you could look at any of the most expensive paintings of all time it's like well that value was defined by one person who was willing to pay that much money for it like me me personally i have no impact on how much um the Mona Lisa's worth yeah because i'm not even in any way shape or form in the realm of people who would be in a position to buy it but you could be maybe if one day you make enough money and you go out there and you buy it i don't think it's even like available for purchase is it like that's where's the money Lisa kept is that the uh oh you make me think a glass onion don't do that well i know when you think of the Mona Lisa right a little bit well the idea of is it for sale can you just like borrow it and put it in your house is like no the louis isn't going to let you fucking do that you can't just have the Mona Lisa put it in your house the louis isn't it yeah this is yeah i just i imagine i imagine it would never be sold which is kind of an interesting one because at that point it's it's it's effectively priceless um and that i imagine you never ever ever ever be sold it's now found like it's you know i'm like yeah basically that there's not really it would i would be i would wonder how much money you would have to offer to be able to buy it and just keep it for yourself yeah i feel like it it might actually be that there's no price yeah probably i don't know how many of you guys have things that have sentimental value but nobody would buy them you have pictures that you made whenever you were a kid or something like that he's almost there now he's starting to recognize the whole personal value but like it's sentimental would obviously be different than appreciating a thing for the skill and an artistry that went into it which is also different than what everyone wants and feels would be worth paying for it on the market these are all different values and when you and when you summarize your position as you opinion doesn't matter and the thing that you think has value doesn't unless everyone says it does they have distinctive impressions on people as statements that aren't as you know fair or interesting as the ones he's making here and you know like some fucking thing that you had whenever you're growing up and like this to you is worth a lot but to anybody else it's not worth anything so i think that we all have like it's it's such a personal example we all know that this is the case is we all know that this is true that's the point i'm making that it's priceless it's about taking jobs away from people in the industry though if what you said about robots taking over the future is true should artists just pack it in no more jobs do people still get portraits done even though we have cameras do people still buy only fans even i was gonna say that i wouldn't apply those two different things those two different mediums i didn't know you can google big i would value a portrait of me far more than i would value a photograph of me also what was the second word about boobs why do people do uh only fans if you can just get big boob well i do actually as much as i think it's silly there are there are answers to that question yes there are we'll still get portraits done even though we have cameras do people still buy only fans even though you can google big boob yeah i mean there's a lot of answers to that question in fact oh yeah like what just one boob what boob what singular only one boob please note one large none of this pair of boob shit two medium-sized boobs or one large boob one big boob please it's tidier i would like big boob people still like handmade clothes even though you can get it printed from a fucking third world sweatshop yes so basically uh neuroscience that's so interesting because it sounds like you say that the uh at least in that comparison the um the ai work is like the unethical one you know is a completely ai-generated uh vtuber that was created by a guy named vedal and neuroscience has actually become so popular that it was the top female streamer which is actually a guy which is you know like you know guys you know men we just can't we just can't stop winning and feminism dead once again that is kind of funny that matter better at being women it was like when uh who's the jenner who what's her name now katelyn jenner when she won like woman of the year and we had all those jokes about a man becomes a men are even better than than at being women than women are yeah it was actually the most popular streamer for like a week or a month uh recently beating out all of the other real girls or real fake girls that are real women all of them uh were beat out wait so oh it beat out not only women but also the fake women that women were pretending to be other women as in vtuber women behind women he basically what he's saying is there's a guy who created a woman that was so good it beat out all women even the women who made women damn by neurosama and by someone said beating out is like he means the highest viewership i think is what that means beating out so i think that you have an example of that being being the case so like what you're talking about is like if ai takes away a job from a content creator what do you think that my position is on that monday let's be real i'm just saying like it's pretty fucking defeating i actually don't know as a guy about yeah well i i i feel like what he's just said gives you his answer and either no i disagree i think he's made clear what his answer is he's saying that that's natural in the industry that's what happens and that you need to you know evolve basically adapt or die uh what i guess i mean in the subject of automation right that was what happened in manufacturing automation meant yeah manufacturing especially in like western countries got pretty decimated and it's like okay well now what are they supposed to do you know what's what's uh what's next well so and and what i i found that argument compelling the whole like uh you know why the resistance of the next generation shouldn't be met with like fear of losing jobs and it's like okay but this is the balance i suppose it's that you shouldn't rush it we need to soften the blow of the industry's destruction on jobs right we need to transition this stuff slowly yeah exactly we need to make opportunity for people to to move into different sectors as well well i guess you're fucked like good luck yeah that's the thing i would rather we have that perspective than the you you fucking get used to it buddy it's like you know we could try to help about you like what are they supposed to do well especially when especially when you know if you work in a field for a long time and then you become very specialized and skilled in that field and then you're done it's like well i mean you're hardly gonna be able to build up the skills to be competitive in the next field that you need to move into with like no assistance or any good you know any help whatsoever like the it was like the learn to code thing right oh yeah cool bro but like that takes time to develop those controls you can't just like that's very that's just not very helpful degree in art that a i art is coming out and potentially taking away job offers that could be offered to me like should i just switch careers no you should embrace it completely and you should look at how to use it to augment your skills you have the perfect to use and leverage these skills with this new technology to get a better job than probably you could have gotten 10 years ago i suppose the problem there is that what if you're dealing with someone who fundamentally considers it unethical what are they supposed to do then it's like we'll change your ethical system i guess or of course what if you don't want to make it that way what if you want to do it the the the question away the normal way of just not using those tools at all i guess it's just like oh well too bad but i mean that doesn't seem like a great it's an answer it's just yeah it doesn't really solve many problems it only just answers the question well it especially doesn't solve the problem of what if somebody places an immense amount of value in the process of doing it themselves of going from you know uh like pencil and paper all the way to creating something without doing any like without any use of ai tools in that process at all it's just like oh too bad like sucks for you then i guess copy bake it out like or or at the very least you can't expect to do it professionally that doesn't seem like a great solution i don't think that you should view it that way i don't i think that that's the defeatist mindset like i ai art is a tool i feel like figure out how to use it as a pretty defeatist yeah depending on who you're talking to well it also depends on how you view it all if if you if you think this is encroaching upon creativity and destroying industries that someone tells you yeah get used to it how fucking sad is that jesus or i guess it would be like why would you expect someone to accept that answer i'm just like yeah well that thing you want ain't gonna happen so like tough shit like do you think that they'll go like oh well fuck you've convinced me i give up i can't give up on on the position that i hold it doesn't work like that well yeah you're only gonna be like completely in line with this if you already agree with him which funnily enough i'm i'm aligned in certain ways i just feel like it lacks there's so many holes in this in terms of like a appeal trying to soften what the effects of this will be on a actively highly developed civilization because that's what that's what ai's gonna do it's gonna it's it's already swamping loads of different industries that's gonna take over and loads of different scary ways that we won't be able to even figure out like it'll be done well before we even know about it something different i say that as if it isn't happening literally right now just like you know it hasn't happened yet i'm sure self checkouts are huge like most places have like 30 fucking checkout lines and three of them are open everywhere and whenever i was a kid 15 of them were open well what happened to those 12 people well one of them is working at the self checkout area and the other 11 aren't working at the store anymore so there's definitely that um candle makers yeah candle makers and one thing that i've known as people doing at the grocery stores are the people who go around and fill up the tubs full of like the people put in their orders for like groceries online and then people at the store put it all into like boxes and stuff and then you come and pick it up or sometimes it's even delivered so i guess that's a thing that's how i guess the thing is like all of this because of course if you point to like self service which yeah i mean basically like any grocery store or retail place has got self-serve checkouts at this point when it used to be that you had to have people operating into the checkouts and that potentially means lost jobs um i mean the solution has to be where you got it you got to find jobs to replace those jobs right you can't how is it going to be sustainable if you've just got oh yeah 10 gobs 10 jobs get lost and then one job gets created like are you going to end up at a place where there are people who are just permanently unemployable because that's maybe though yeah i don't know like but then i put it feels like again it's already moving out of the like the subject of ai into a much uh broader sort of our subject light bulbs while i'm trying to think about examples that are contemporary that we all understand travel agents that's a really great example the taxi industry has totally changed with uber totally died yeah taxi is not a great example no it is it goes about dying because if it was gradually transferred over and taxi drivers can become uber drivers obviously there's going to be damage done but i actually think that's a good example of an industry that started with the gap in the market and that's what he's saying then yes i thought he was saying something different i don't i can't say i know exactly what he's saying here but i assumed what i would want to advocate for is that we do it gradually i wouldn't want to say that ubers have to stop and not exist because it'll kill taxis i would rather we incorporate and smoothly transition over to that being the dominant because it just seems to be a more effective service get the taxi drivers into being uber drivers that sort of thing um i just you know i wouldn't instead i wouldn't want to say it as simply as you know how we used to have taxis now we have ubers there we go like it would be like that that's not i don't know if that's an interesting analysis compared to what you could say telephone i'm sure there's a lot of taxi drivers who fucking hate uber oh no yeah yeah i mean there's a lot of things where like in new york they fought to keep uber out of like new york i think so i seem to remember that yeah probably that rings the bell well it where i am in vancouver it was the same thing i remember taxi drivers were fucking pissed yeah it makes sense you need it to be transitioned slowly so that people can adapt in time because if you if it happens all at once it can do serious damage but these maps yeah the people that make maps that's a great fucking example yes exactly if a i art can replace uh uh boris philgeos or uh chris foss's art style what the focus is the point of warning about principles design elements of art like i don't know man it depends on how you use it like i think that if you if you understand things like that you can perfect tools to make those tools more precise and more appealing uh this doesn't negate the opinions of those who made it this is like saying that otk network or your stream only has value because we not you enjoy it you own otk forget you dude who cares what you think people are just totally watching your streams for your gaming only and not your opinion and viewpoint certain matters you and i both know that's nonsense it may be a good game but it's not impressive he's talking about powell world i said you're right again if no one watched my stream it would have no value who would sponsor a streamer who has no views i mean how much would ads make again it's still yeah it's just it's that's economic value which i still feel like isn't captured fully by this but um i get what he's saying compared to personal value or artistic value but again well i mean artistic value from the point of view of many people or from from yourself you know there's many values but what is like it's i guess because it's funny it's like i mean what what does it mean when for instance a company is said to be overvalued like what does that mean when whatever their valuation is according to the market doesn't seem to correlate with what would be seen as like traditional markers of value um like what does it mean and you know what what happens if like let you know i guess the vincent van goes easy example right he painted he didn't really get much attention and then people found out about it and then his paintings became you know much more expensive because everybody starts to know who he was it's like so it would be that the painting had no value until like somebody noticed it and then all of a sudden it's like it's got dramatic value that that would be the way that it would be categorized in his world which right you might even make it simpler as it didn't have value until it had value and then you'd be like can you be more specific it's like it didn't have someone valuing it until it had someone valuing it and you're like oh that's awfully restrictive and it's like yep that's all i meant you're like oh okay that does seem to be it too well it's and it's not what everyone's mad about it's uh yeah the mad about the implications and the um almost the subtext it gets gets to people as well because it's the word values the word matters these words um you know they do stuff and how could i get subscribers some things market value versus its personal value are two different things and so this is the last point that he makes in a dam yeah i'll probably have to respond to this dam and um uh perhaps it's different some perspective here what we value more sounds like you're a slave to your viewers and sponsors uh than my dude not a slave but a servant and i don't think that's a bad thing but i know you stream because you love it and value it for yourself and you couldn't think of doing that you know you can hit pause two rags if you just talking i can't hear you what you said i was gonna didn't quite uh it's like a what if you expand on that i didn't quite know what he means by like not a slave but a servant um i mean yeah he could have expanded on it but i assume it just means the guess but i'm not even sure if my guess would be close to what he means a servant willingly does services for a price right like they're compensated meanwhile slave is like they have no choice in anything like so a slave in this sense would be like i don't want to stream but i we're forcing you to yeah or that you can't express any opinions that any of your chat would not be happy with or you can't play any games that aren't going to be very popular i think that would be closer to like the slave level but that has my goal i mean he gets himself in trouble so much he can't be considered as someone who doesn't uh go against the grain here in there i i don't know i i it's a fair point you could have elaborated a little bit on that anything else uh so i think you're missing my point i'm making sure are because i value it i make tutorials on how to make 3d art because i genuinely enjoy doing it even if i get minimal views i don't care good then do it i i develop rust because i genuinely enjoy the art i make for it and developers i have around me are like family the opinion on developing a game matters to me for me if no one watched your stream it doesn't mean that it has no intrinsic value i think that it does and i actually think that this stream never had any intrinsic value i think that the value for a stream was always subjective and something having subject you see the words they're all tangled up if you look at their last sentence they say unless you're framing it all through the lens of money then that's a shame and i think if asman had read that already he would have been like no not a shame reality and then they'd be like yeah a sad reality to be like no just reality because that's how value works in the but you know what i mean like it's like oh i feel like the two positions are not recognizing each other very well and that yet they use the same words to describe the same uh situation yeah like earlier he said if no one watched my stream it would have no value and then he said value is subjective there's like but if people are what if the value is based off of the people who are watching it then that's subjective he seemed to pretty clearly mean monetary value with regards to his own right because immediately after that well what who would sponsor a stream with zero viewers how many ads would people watch right so like he was clearly i think in that case talking pretty exclusively about the the literal monetary value of that stream right and i think in that case if you're streaming to zero people what is the monetary value of that stream yeah it's going to be zero because you get no subs you get no ads you get you know which is interesting as to what rag said in terms of that wouldn't be subjective at that point right like it wouldn't be subjective no like like there's so much i don't know all these terms are being thrown around repeatedly and they seem to have different meanings every time he says them right and maybe it's because he's reading them and and other people are saying oh but it has no value right and they're saying oh so you're saying that uh it has no personal value has no you know because on them well so why he this is why the words are getting tangled because uh take for example someone's saying we're gonna supply ads to a youtuber and uh this one has 10,000 average viewers, this one has 20, this one has 30, it's like we're going with the 30 and it's like that value of their viewers has translated into literal units so they gives them value on a screen to like someone deciding something like that and he would say yes that is objective but that the people watching it and liking it is the subjective part and so describing it wholly as subjective value can get very confusing if we're talking about the money markets or the economic markets um but again it's just like that's that's that seems to be what we have learned overall is that this is entirely just miscommunication which does often end up being the cause of pretty much everything that goes wrong at the end of that yeah well definitely a lot of it yeah objective value doesn't make it inferior or worse but it does make it different and not the same as something that has intrinsic value unless you're framing it through all through the lens of money that does have intrinsic value yes and i want to actually sorry i still don't know what he the way that he phrases that hello go on rags yeah a drop but you're good now is he is is he oh maybe not i haven't heard a word from him i spoke too soon so we hello rags is rags rip in peace rip in pepperoni uh i'm waiting for the f for go on give me the bottom can we get an f in the chat for rags well or x's if you doubt his death f so let's see oh i see a couple x's but mostly f's i think we think this is legitimate death you gotta give the x's a little more time they're coming in they didn't know x was an option oh it's games more just typing x over and over and every one of them counts i you know what we're just gonna carry on should we refer back to this and talk about this again um the reason why i said a lot of these things i was talking about this in the context of going to market with a video game i wasn't talking about art as a whole i wasn't talking about how an individual perceives art how could i possibly tell somebody what has value to them that's insane i'm talking explicitly and you know you'd know this if you saw more than a minute and a half of the which we have whoo clip that i'm talking about why people buy or don't buy a game i'm talking about how consumers value games how consumers consume content what values those people have it doesn't really have a lot to do with how he went to do made i know that i'm right so much that it doesn't even bother me when it doesn't even bother me whenever people get mad i view them as just people that are unwilling or i would say even with all this clarification i mostly agree with them but i would still take issue with the idea of like a discouragement on people raising all of these issues in the hopes of doing something to the game ultimately and and suggesting through stats like they're not making any difference are you it's like well no they still can they still may and they have in the past a lot of things can happen and it's crazy what happens when you appeal to uh like the creators behind the thing that can have some huge difference or unable to see the truth i'm not mad at any of these comments this like obviously i've talked about it for a long time i clearly care about them but this isn't something that's going to make me unhappy or compromise me emotionally if that makes sense uh what you're wrong about is how you said the game made doesn't matter but it does it may not matter to you or a bunch of people but it sure does to a lot of other people who are different um it doesn't matter in a functional sense in terms that it will create an effect on the video game whenever i say it doesn't matter what i'm real what i'm not only might it what i but the judging from the stats will never know how much effect it actually has had on it one other thing you can never know on that thing because it's thinking about you know futures that don't exist but yeah i mean you can never know for sure all right hello i'm really saying is that it doesn't matter in the context of it selling well or not selling well of course it matters to you but it doesn't matter in the sense of it selling well in the market um a bunch of sales can be driven because of a notable artist that worked in a certain product i was definitely the case for me in a bunch of games that i said to buy and why is that artist notable and you will see that your reasoning will come back around to the fact that that artist creates value that resonates with people such as yourself because people like their work exactly but that's that's not what he was saying earlier yeah this one makes it complicated now because it's like so my investment in the art history of an individual makes me decide to buy a thing where i otherwise wouldn't have would be an example of if anything of the artist having value this is a he's very clearly contradicting what he says earlier because he's saying oh well the artist has no value and if you have an artist you know they don't matter they're not going to actually push the uh the the product in the end if you have a great artist no one's going to buy that game because of the great artist now he's saying actually you know if you have a great artist people are totally going to buy the game because they love that artist um so i'm not even sure he knows what he thinks on this one quite frankly yeah i think with this this this this is i think you should have gone with this one you should have just said like yeah this can happen this is another sort of minor exception where uh the success of a thing could be driven by an artist but then again people will be like we've got some great examples of an artist almost defining the like the the big selling point of it that we went over this before was that this stream when we mentioned like directors and was that the previous stream yeah no i'm pretty sure i mentioned it this time okay it's a good old Scorsese or Shyamalan we could celebrate that last time yeah we talked about that last time as well i know the lines between yesterday and today are very blurry yes we are we are nearing we got 15 minutes of video left oh yes it's a symbiotic relationship a big part of game sales like doom eternal for example were driven because of mc gordon the composer that worked on it and why did people buy it because of mc gordon why did that happen marty odonal is another one made to halo music for many years well that's actually not a good example because marty odonal did make another game and even though he was doing it and he's a well-liked composer that game didn't sell so well which game was that just because uh i think it was called golem not lord of ring golem not lord of ring golem but a different one i think it was like a g-art game and i don't yeah i know when it was going to be halo it's a lord of ring golem yeah is that golem as in lord of the rings golem like another no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no well like a golem you know g-o-l-e-m oh golem okay yeah all right is it do you pronounce it yeah it's it's pronounced a bit differently yeah yeah wait so like the golems that batman sits on how do you pronounce them i've i think i've heard it pronounce both that's like yeah that's i would say that's a gargoyle i think i've heard a gargoyle oh wait fuck g-o-l-e it's during my braid braid melty yeah it's so golem is spelled with two l's i think golem is one l yeah it is i think it's from an old heber word oh my god i'm learning something new every day i thought i thought you just they were just called golems as well not golems man i feel like i've talked for so long and that's never come up that's just i don't think it's ever i don't think it's ever come up i always just thought my god my goodness uh okay well anyway marty o donnell he was uh he did the music for a game called golem and i don't believe it sold super well even though marty o donnell might be yeah i'd say i'd say he definitely fits into the category of one of the most well-known video game composers and that's i guess it's it's like just because of course i think so it seems like his argument is the reason why people care about these artists and their opinions is because they made good stuff in the past basically um and then his words would be like well they made stuff that was of uh of value in the um of of like economic value in the uh in the past like that doesn't necessarily that doesn't necessarily yield anything in terms of like future results or like you know i mean it's it's uh i'm not sure why you'd be relying on this argument too much the main thing to take away is that there's plenty of films he's made that people haven't watched much of main thing to take away is marty o donnell did the music for lord ring golem which is fucking crazy oh we didn't i can't believe it golem man it wasn't very notable compared to halo i would say the music in ordering golem but you know some artists have a rise some artists have a fall that's it if he says it yeah consumer value yes because they love his word so you're saying that people buy it because they perceive value is that what you're saying i don't really understand what you mean with perceived value okay um the perceived value is that people think that his art is good and the reason why people think that his art is good is why his art is selling that's why is that this is this is a i mean again at this point it's just like so the art being good is important compared to people believing it's good and it's like no believing it's good is all the matters is like even though they believe it's good because it's good it's just like oh fuck everyone's like yeah one of the reasons behind these beliefs those are important too of course so the original the original argument he made was something along i don't remember exactly um or he was being accused of um artists's opinions don't matter anymore right uh that was the original tweet in regards to the economic value of a of a piece even though even with those specific environmental things you could still have Montesco says he say that everyone needs to see this new film that's coming out and that could make a huge difference in its economic value so in this case this argument he's making actually doesn't matter right because we're not talking about the artist's opinion we're talking about you know the artists a resume essentially right like this is actually an actual ability non non non argument here because it has nothing to do with you know if we're talking marty o'Donnell his opinion isn't what's doing it here right like he's not being like oh this game's a piece of shit you shouldn't buy it and it's affecting the market value this is just a question of whether or not that musician has that work it's the past work that's informing it not necessarily their opinion like you said right so like this is this argument so it's not having here is meaningless to the original content yeah i get what you mean actually though i will say something i was just thinking about is like it's worth remembering as well that like the the amount that you pay for like a game that you're gonna play is based on like anticipated value that it has to you non you can buy a game and then be like oh fuck that sucks i wish i didn't pay 60 bucks for this ship you know and it's like well then what is its value to you now is it worth the 60 dollars that you paid for it is it you know or do you believe that it's worth less than that or alternatively is it worth tremendously more than the 60 dollars that you paid for it if you played it you're like holy shit this game is amazing well he seems to be acknowledging that marty o'Donnell and mc gordon are talented composers and a and a degree an amount of the sales of each of their respective game franchises is due to their talent but then like if you were to give the task of creating the halo or doom score to an ai it wouldn't be able to do it well it's but i mean i think he would probably well i mean that's something even though it contradicts his argument earlier talking about people who will buy a game because an artist that worked on it really liked it it's like well yeah what happens if it's like okay i i guess it's well neither of these examples are gonna look we're in hypothetical world because i believe mc gordon isn't working on the next doom or ever working again yeah he never will obviously no he had a he had a bad experience on eternal i think yeah yeah uh but the point being that you know like i don't know doom 3 comes out and then you find out it's like oh well mc gordon would have been working on it but that he's not because they decided that they were going to use an ai for this one you know like that fact in and of itself especially if you were particularly invested in the artist you know like as he's pointing out in this example you like them because of the value that that artist created it's like well i mean fuck what do you think's gonna happen in next time around it's like oh we got an ai that's approximating their work but that artist didn't work on it and they didn't make anything from it they're not gonna make anything from a purchase of it i mean obviously that could have a tremendous influence on it and he would have to acknowledge that that is the case because he's pointing to people buying it because they like what they did before and presumably want to support that creator well here's the thing yeah when um when what was it secret invasion came out in those uh opening credits you know they were the ai-generated ones and instantly set a lot of people against the show just from that alone that was said like an hour ago right gosh oh that's how i'm pointing out the ai voice for like Darth Vader the ai voice for oh yeah well yeah so what i was gonna say is like if you were on who wants to be a millionaire and they say to you what determines the economic value of a product and they say a how the product was made b how good the product actually is c what people believe about the product or d what the artist that created it say about the product i'd be like well i guess i'm going with c like if i guess what they believe however if you wanted like the what's the correct answer i'd be like well c but what in form c it's like well a b and d and lots of other things to be honest with you like people's awareness of all kinds of different kinds of things will have massive effects on the economic value because it it will inform and change what people believe what people perceive yeah yes right and i feel like that's that's it good summer yeah people don't people don't often just believe things in a complete and total vacuum right normally they get that information from something right and it's made by the customer is arts worth it yes exactly and i would argue that if the if the if there was a an ai tool that is equivalent in creating music or creating some form of gameplay that people viewed on the same level as mc gordon people would buy the game for that reason as well and i can use a does believe that people would um that might not have an impact if they found out it's like yeah well maybe you can see it would but the um the ultimately most people just want the great music um yeah maybe maybe i suppose what's interesting about that is that um and this this is like a good thing and a bad thing you know like if two great movies come out but one of them is made by scorsese you'd be like well i know which one i've chosen that's what most people probably say because it's like yeah well he's attached to it you're like so i know i feel more reassured as to what i'm getting i guess or that i get to celebrate him more and i i would like to do that because i have so much respect for him that's that's sort of there's a couple of elements to come with knowing there's a human author that we talked about as well just um yeah more connected to it i suppose soft example for that with unreal five i feel like people hear that a game is made in unreal five and they're like oh my god it's gonna be so good and i think that people's behavior from that is an example for what my what i'm trying to say use hard examples i think that's the best example i can do not really even if people didn't buy it his music would still be good if a tree falls in the forest did it make a sound yes yes yeah sound waves exist independent of observers well so this is where this is something i wish he hadn't said because it really flies in the face of everything else he just said why wasn't his answer here yeah personal value artistic value that's different than the market value and i'd be like i understand that but instead he said does it if people aren't buying it could it really considered be considered good it's like of course absolutely and i think asmongold would say yes to that you have to know that this is the case there's gonna be one game or one movie or one show that he likes that wasn't successful well what about i mean just we have a term for it we have hidden gems like barely yeah a lot of like a really great game or song or band or whatever that not a lot of people know about it gets over a lot better than people discover it yeah it feels like he's kind of glomming onto that to make it trying to make his argument more sound by not agreeing to i i just i think this is a misstep because i i feel like i understood his argument right before he said this and i i feel like i knew what his response should have been to this now now it's like uh i i feel like we're back in murky yeah i'm confused again where i don't understand what's going on we talked about before but blade runner and the thing right it's like well i guess they're not good it's like no they no they're really good it's just the like wrong place wrong time you know they were good before they got more acclaim yeah it's not like a claim that it gets is the that yeah that's that's that's silly and that's the problem with this answer is that if he's understanding this person's use of the word good to mean economically successful then you should have read the sentence says if people didn't make it economically successful it would still they didn't do that then it would still be economically successful and he'd say oh that doesn't make sense if we're talking about market value but instead he said if a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound that's an odd one you go to uh you know a a fucking christian uh revival and you start playing mc gordon's doom soundtrack bro you're gonna have some holy water thrown on you that doesn't have anything to do with anything yeah it doesn't fit the taste of that you know that that venue they would do the same thing if you went to a symphony and you started playing that that's not really what people are there for yeah that was a good point yeah like you're about to get an exorcism what are you doing imagine you want to be a sculptor so you go to a success for sculptor's house and you make molds of all their sculptures sculptures without their permission then you use those molds to make minor modifications to them and then create new art pieces this is literally what ai software is well isn't this what people would do is they would see sculptures and then they would make theirs like the ones that they saw that still feels significantly different than making a mold of someone's sculpture and then recreating the sculpture with that mold that as opposed to looking at someone's sculpture and trying to recreate it yeah in the way that i recreate it is it's fully my own from the ground up the only yeah i just it's just the inspiration is what ties them together not like a literal i think we may have talked about it but if you're a sculptor and you're like teaching someone and they're gradually getting better and better and then they show you their final ultimate piece and you're like fucking hell you've done it that's incredible i'm so proud of you versus well i did it but it was it was from your mold they'd be like oh um i look familiar yeah you'd be like well maybe maybe we can try and get you there with you instead of the mold you know i feel like that's what people do a warehouse full of molds of other people's work created without their permission i don't think that somebody has full permission on how something is consumed once they release it to the public once you release your well they have copy right expression into the public when they can well they can also change people's perception of it with their commentary this happens all the time right but that's the thing is he's talking about art versus art well if he's talking about death of the author i agree with him right yeah exactly but but he's not talking well rather that's not the subject he's talking about that but but the subject is you know fair use as an argument which is not the same thing at all yeah this is talking about part of that ownership is no longer yours i almost feel like he's talking about spiritual ownership like the you've now left it into the world and so you can't control it like how like sort of like fandoms in a sense are like communities can take they sort of take some ownership over the thing that they're fans of look at an official sense but in like a spiritual sense you know how uh uh george releases star wars and it has han shui agrido that he's like no no no no no no after it's released he's like no this this is what i meant it's like too late george it's it's beyond your control now i know you're george but that just means we're extra disappointed you no longer have full autonomy and control of how people will respond to that everybody's mad at maybe that's interesting the bot the bot says your message is too long so it's been like deleted for a while now you know i his bot i guess the bot if the bot all right okay if your message is too long it automatically deletes it i mean that can make some sense it's probably one of the basic sort of spam protection things i suppose so because i express myself in a certain way and then those people are talking about it that's what happens whenever you express and you put something out into the public the art does not store the appeals work stable diffusion it can't even contain uh everyone's data in pure form sure uh then you use this multiple modifications okay i have a company trained to model from scratch with no base layer like stable diffusion and they have consent from the contributors there would not be an uproar this is why people are mad the artists are being molded and copied without consent or compensation okay i don't find it to be a moral difference whenever an ai tool does it then whenever a person copies it or traces it i don't view that to be a tremendous moral difference he said it don't think of it as i'm being in tracing is different than just taking it that's different than taking inspiration from a thing i also want to highlight he said i don't see a moral difference and then he said i don't see a tremendous moral difference those two are very different positions yeah this is a word that if i was there i'd be like yeah the term tremendous it's just like do you think there's a difference fundamentally do you think they're the same like i would just ask that of him can you explain to me racing is like you know like it's i mean yeah like i'm not sure why he's comparing it to racing yeah that's another one it seems like the one is often the the idea of like inspiration of taking inspiration from different art styles or different techniques compared to like tracing i don't think that's the one that you would want to go with for this uh for this point i can kind of see the the tracing thing because like the digital equivalent of that is sort of like the sort of replicating the distribution of pixels based on colors i'm there's a scale and it's so hard to pick the line because i i get what you're saying completely there's so much the level of artistry seems to be like where everyone's trying to decide like i that i define this is the place where the last of artistry exists any further than this and you've gone into goopy non-artist land right it's really difficult though to figure it out um definitively i you think that it is don't ask questions and consume product then get excited for next product this is what people are criticizing because they're saying that i am advocating for this behavior i am not advocating for this behavior i am acknowledging that it is the norm this is the those are different those are different things mate i'm trying to think of the norm is don't ask questions just consume product and then get excited for next product probably in regards to maybe he's more right than he realizes because like my issue is that he almost discourages people from you know aggressively highlighting the issues they take with the thing whether or not it'll make a difference to the consumption of a thing is like yeah but i think we should encourage that though even if it makes no difference because it's the right thing to do you are like asmongold is observing trends like people will buy this dumb thing whatever it is like the nerd crew like the satirical show that they do is just making a sort of similar observation like people will go in droves to see the new michael bay movie that's like dog shit you know and it's just like oh that did really well in the box office let's make another one like on the part of the studio's you know and then the cycle just continues like on that level i can i kind of get it and to get people to care about why a game is the way that it is this is not people's fight they don't care about that these are yeah i just agree with that like the plenty that you don't even know how many people will care about whatever issue you're about to highlight is you actually you can't really know and i just don't like the discouraging element of it imagine you found out like that you that they stole some stuff and then you're like i guess normal care it's like make people aware of it it's all right you've got a big voice you have the potential to change a lot of minds and if you change a lot of minds that's going to have effects on the market so i feel like of all the people who should have this mindset you could be among the least of them someone said you can from previous data lol yeah we can prove that people will care because we've had several instances of pro products or entire channels being of absolutely obliterated by individual voices highlighting ethical issues what do you mean by that like yeah of course we we would encourage people to do it more but even if we had full data to tell us that you make zero impact why would we encourage people to just give up then it's like no keep going yeah i would also say that you can't know when we have new issues like this is relatively new as much as for an internet person this has been everywhere for some months and years this is still new to a lot of people who've never even heard of like the concept so you never know what effect it'll have and we'll get new issues all the time it's just how especially with technology fucking racing forward average people with extremely complex lives who have a finite amount of energy to devote to different things and big surprise they're not going to be devoting it to getting mad about a fucking video game it might not be about getting mad as much as they go say for example critical drinker makes we talked about this with the back with the yms stuff like a lot of people will go to trick or drinker because they don't have time to properly like assess whether or not a film is worth their time based on actors writers and companies and stuff so they work on his recommendations drinker could also be like stay away from this and go for this uh trust me the ethical background i got a video explaining it if you want to know the bite size version but ultimately like you don't have the time to be too concerned about this but i can give you a vague direction on you want to avoid that and go more so for this and they can be like well i trust drinker so i will sure because that's what he dedicates his time to right he's invested in this he watches all these movies and like you can trust his opinion after watching so many of his videos and it's like you know what if he says this is good i'll go see it and i'll probably like it and being stealing pictures right because like i think that we can all agree we can all agree that caring about uh kids working in cobalt mines or lithium mines is like a million times worse than somebody stealing a picture like this is like infinitely worse but nobody cares about the lithium mines and so i'm not going to hear about the pictures that's i still like i would still be like we should probably still be made aware of that though the lithium mine stuff you know what i mean like i i would never even discourage that and i don't know enough about that industry to know what changes have happened over the last decade or whatever like as far as i know i'm operating just under the idea that it has happened in the past i assume it still happens but i don't know if like if people become more aware of it the industry industry shrinks or maybe it changes or like i don't know anything about it but even then this is just oh they're starving kids in africa and it's like yeah there are that's bad too but this can also be bad i guess he's trying the the comparison he's making is for the sake of like they don't care about that so obviously they won't care about this is like they might i don't know the proximity issue comes up again but also who cares if they care if they care about neither of them i still think we should advocate for the knowledge of these things happening well yes it's his point like oh look at them getting worked up over this thing that isn't as big an issue as this other thing in the world that is a bigger issue is that his point part of the issue though is again like that might be an individual hypocrisy or they might be a reason for that they might be like i do have a set of pages and tweets about that issue you know what i mean this is like yeah well maybe you do whatever you know i mean like it's just like way too many assumptions have been made it's the way i feel about it so yes of course people who has time to ask questions about prod every product that they consume where does he think no and i don't even think it needs to be that complex so just um no but but there's nothing wrong with people being made aware of that because i could be made aware of it and go yeah you know that that could happen on other things on other products they go oh no i do care about that one i mean that's just normal that you're gonna have differing levels of interest depending on what it is a shirt was made i mean isn't this like how would you guys rate this compared to like what happened to cigarettes like the proliferation of how just just how fucking bad they are would have made a serious difference to people's enjoyment of them right i mean surely i did like one of the reason i don't want to smoke so i don't want to get any of the illness that they were associated with smoking yeah absolutely the the knowledge of it has definitely um and we've seen it right we've seen over time going from everybody smoking everywhere all the time to oh this is actually really bad for you so you can't smoke inside you shouldn't smoke in your car you know you shouldn't blow smoke into a baby face and that has a vastly reduced presence in society yeah and now smoking is a minority and maybe even like a super minor yeah i'm still glad with the oh yeah yeah it's still well and a lot of them have transferred now over to um vaping right looks like in 2021 11.5 percent of us adults currently smoked cigarettes how awesome though so i'm not sure just based on the blur but it says in 2023 of those youth who ever tried e-cigarettes uh approximately half reported currently using cigarettes indicating that many youths who try e-cigarettes remain e-cigarettes users ah so half of the people so i guess approximately half of the youth who tried e-cigarettes are currently using them okay so i guess if you gotta you gotta have is about half the people who tried them kept using them or at least used them when the survey was done in 2023 then of course because it's so sad and yeah we traded that out forever being fat or whatever it's like well to take it seriously it's like that is an epidemic right like the like heart disease related things of obesity is like a huge problem in the west and it's like yeah that a lot of people have said that's an education problem but at the same time it's like a lot of things that would come into it um but you know the highlight being people are aware that it's killing them and they're still doing it but that doesn't mean we give up or we can't change it yeah i mean it would surely surely they are better off for knowing that than worse off for knowing exactly yeah and so like what i guess i'm saying is that that's a way more serious exchange of cost and we can make a difference of it still but like why i just feel like encouraged about all of this is like we should we should make people more aware as best we can with all of these different sectors i'm sure all of these things were made ethically as well right come on what is this like what why are we why are we living in this world of these people that think that because they have a lot of free time to fixate on things on the internet that normal people that have average lives are somehow inferior because they do something else with their time instead of that it's such a how do you get that at all not like they're inferior but they they could benefit from the knowledge i would say that about myself if i didn't have it yeah ridiculous thing and so patronizing and obnoxious you are not a shitty person if you don't want to thoroughly investigate and draw some but draw the line the moral line at the exact same place that some random other idiot thinks that you was this ever the argument that you need to be so incredibly invested in the research that you are an expert was that ever the argument here well and this person's been personally offended you can tell we we one of us i think in the beginning montage it's like they're clearly very angry they they believe what the as one goal is saying is not only a reflection of reality but encouraging of the reality that who gives a fuck about artists give us what we want that sort of thing that's and i'm not saying anyone saying that i'm saying that that's how they felt and that's why they're angry and that's probably why a lot of people are angry to draw that like i'm sorry but i just really i i don't see i i don't see these people having any any moral authority they don't you live in reality yeah exactly what they mean is you're a shitty person to me yeah no that's totally fine and they can have an opinion all they want it's a bit disingenuous to over represent how much of a choice people have in their day-to-day lives like you don't support slavery i guess you can't use a mobile phone or live in this society i completely disagree with this point of view these are people who cannot even uphold these standards for their own level of uh for their own entertainment and i'm gonna give you an example read this person's uh thing black multimedia artist voice actor uh he they and he this is clearly a person who cares about lgbt issues and the black lives matter and all that it's not clear how what do you think that their opinion on elon musk is i bet they think he's a terrible a terrible fucking person that a lot of people think elon musk is transphobic a lot of people think he's an asshole so this person is on a platform building the brand and continuing to make billions of dollars for a person who i think that they would assume is actively at war against certain identities that they either uh you know sympathize with or are part of so whenever this person can't even stop their own entertainment and you know like you can't even avoid using a social media platform no i'm not going to respect your opinion on telling me what video games to play so that is an interesting assumption about a lot of things to do with this person and the way that they engage with this platform and if he's completely correct about all of that i agree with him that is hypocritical and they should be a little bit ashamed of how they try and project a particular image but simultaneously don't really believe in it however if we are speculating on who they could be wouldn't you include the potential for this person to say that they believe that their contribution to the success of this platform is outweighed by how much they use the platform and it's you know availability to promote that the fact that it's a terrible platform yeah just the same way that we hear on stream like we if we bought if we bought tickets to go see you know the marvels but then we went on to youtube and we convinced everyone and told everyone about how terrible it was and obviously it would outweigh the you know the results of that so yeah you you can engage with a platform that you think is you know not great or you can engage in something to ultimately you know produce a better outcome overall yeah sure well and and what why i feel like i that this should be mentioned in his analysis is he is responding to them he's listening to them on this platform he wouldn't be if they're on a different one yeah i mean it's true that they don't like you on must i guess as part of the hypothetical yeah but that again they i'm sure they would argue that's outweighed yeah i i mean in this case assuming that that is the case you could make that argument that sure my presence on the platform outweighs the good that i'm doing for the platform and if you were super like super super into avoiding using products when it came to um unethical behavior to produce them uh if you rule out you know being able to use phones and laptops then you've essentially you've severely diminished your ability to get your word out against them and if everyone had the same standard then all of the people who were against you know lithium mining or whatever you wouldn't see them on the internet you they wouldn't be making posts or videos on youtube or anything like that because they can't use the thing that it would take to spread the word it feels like that's just sort of that yet you participate in society curious a little bit yeah yeah i get that i just um i'm just saying we're we're strictly hypothetical like like theorizing about what this person may or may not believe as my girls doing it too i find what his inclusion there was interesting and valid it's just that there's a couple of other options that can explain this as well yeah so much hypocrisy environment knows to wear patagonia jackets or buy evs with batteries made in china yes and and this is really the truth right and so i understand what you're saying you're saying that somebody needs a cell phone in order to exist in society my argument would be that if there were cell phones that were made completely ethically and they were worth they cost twice as much money nobody would buy them i don't think that this person would save up their money and buy the uh you know ethically sourced cell phone i think that they would buy the cheap one just like they would yeah some people absolutely well remember remember when he says everyone he doesn't mean that that's right i'm sorry i made them wait did he say everybody in this sentence he said nobody would i nobody right so what he says nobody doesn't mean nobody that's what i'm saying they have because they don't want to spend the extra money because it's always very easy to criticize and uh you know shit on people for doing something because they because like because they want to but whenever you are held to the same standard somehow it's always different no i think a lot of the times this depends on like the the sacrifice that you would have to make it is a huge sacrifice to forego having laptops phones and everything like that especially if you want to spread a message but it is not really much of a sacrifice to not play a particular video game or maybe don't buy a shoe brand or things of that nature right so if someone who would have would have had to make a very big sacrifice is criticizing someone who really didn't have to make a big sacrifice at all or in fact a very small or even minuscule one then i mean it might technically be hypocrisy on a certain level but i wouldn't consider it you know hypocrisy i think there's a meaningful distinction between i feel like people have a thing for this right when they pop a penny in a thing and they go oh you know just i just want to do do a little something you know help help out where i can that sort of thing like uh it's the equivalent of that where you're just like people want to make a difference and yeah you can point out almost cynically it's like yeah but you're not willing for to cost you much are you like okay but i still want to just make a difference where i can in places that matter to me and a lot of it's built on their knowledge of the the option you know the knowledge of what what thing is wrong what's not it's really not these are people who as i said you can't you're agreeing with them just wording it better i've we i've already said a lot of it is that i i do agree with him a lot i um i his viral clips and a lot of the harsher ways he words things which sometimes he's admitted to has some intention behind it have been unwise i believe whose lives do not revolve around the ethics of ai in the same way this person's life doesn't revolve around the ethics of elon musk we all pick and choose our battles we don't care about these things many people don't and there are all things that we participate in that we're hypocritical about and the problem isn't that people are being hypocritical it's that people want other people to carry their flag whenever they won't do it themselves they won't even carry their own flag they want you to pick up their flag and run with it whenever they won't even do it themselves and i'm not talking about moving out and being like the you know i mean he's describing essentially vichy signaling and i agree that's that's shitty when people yeah yeah yeah obama and living outside of electricity i'm not talking about that i'm talking about just not consuming entertainment content that you find to be harmful like how much do you want to how much do you want to bet that this person probably thinks amazon is bad and how much do you want to bet that this person probably has amazon prime i'm sick of this this is outrageous no this again yeah there's a lot of people that do that and feel that so yeah it's crazy like i'm not talking about you know somebody you know not being able to oh well you know you think the u.s is bad go move somewhere else i'm not talking about moving countries i'm talking about the way that you consume entertainment the way you consume it or people these people cannot even regulate the way that they consume entertainment but they expect you to and they're going to tell you that you're a bad person whenever you don't they can't they're building you're building a straw man out of that guy you're right you're right i could be totally wrong he could love you on musk and he could i think amazon is the greatest country of all time i was going to say i'll even be completely fair to him he's probably right about what they believe but at the same time you can acknowledge you're not going on fact you're going on assumption maybe yeah you're absolutely right i could be wrong but i don't think i am i want to reiterate my original point and then we're going to move on i am completely right and the reality is that i will prove myself right every single day forever and these people will keep coping and you know like having their little support groups on twitter because reality is mean i didn't make it this way they didn't make it this way it is this way it's not my fault i'm not telling you that it's good in some ways it is in other ways it's not getting mad at me for saying something that's obviously true is provably true and it will be continued to provably be true this isn't going to do anything i'm not in the business of talking about how the world should be and if i am there are a lot of other things it should change which number one you you could be in that business if you wanted to because you could just you could just start talking about how you think the world should be um it's your choice to not be i guess as a part of that so but you could if you want and and for the record he said a bunch of things that i completely agree with a bunch of things i completely disagree with a bunch of things that are contradictory to some of the things he said before a bunch of half thought out positions which i think it's completely fair but it's just funny to see that level of conviction after all that like i am fucking right like yeah all right okay which part of you yeah i mean not only is his argument a little bit too broad i feel and he's contradicted himself one too many times where making claims like i'm right everyone else is wrong and like whatever everybody's just coping and modeling if you disagree with me like that's a little too much i will say look all right this isn't like what xqc decided to go into the corner of the group crawling around on the ground dude that would i'm sorry that'll live in my mind forever yeah that's wild how could anyone forget that was so great getting on the ground and crawling around like a worm to prove how not mad as i guess the thing that he's defending is the whole the the opinion of the opinions of artists don't matter because consumers buy things i'll be like that's that i still think that's wrong why would you say less his position after everything we've talked about i mean i think if he's referring to the original statement that he said the clip that got taken around the internet because the one where he said artists opinions don't matter which a lot of people interpreted as him simply saying is you know in isolation which i like i said i i feel like most people should with any basic understanding of human beings assume that's not going to be his position and that you noted immediately how it was cut in a weird way you couldn't even know what was being talked about like i said i i have nothing but a sympathy for him on that one i would always prefer to see what somebody like seeing him explain his position over the course of some amount of time is preferable to just like whatever this thing was that was clipped out that was a minute long that is devoid of the context before and after he's always definitely a lot more he's now understand his position more than at the beginning where i had no clue about any of it well what's wacky is that we've covered a video here that this is probably the most mixed video we've come across at least in a long time very mixed yeah i mean compared to yes those video geez yeah i mostly agree with i think what he's trying to say right he's just a horrific communicator um sometimes he is which maybe that means he's overall but you know i mean like because some of the things he says you're just like yeah he's agree yeah i think he's articulate but he's not consistent and at least not in this right he seems to be bouncing back and forth and maybe it's just because of the format of him responding to random tweets and talking to his own chat so he's just you know jumping from subject to subject to subject back and forth but it is a little hard to sort of see the consistency in his argument across it especially when you're using multiple you know meanings of the word value and so on yeah value and uh matter those two words that came up a lot and they they we need to know better contexts almost every time if you're going to be using those words but some of it got crossed later on when like that person said about the you know the personal uh nostalgic or whatever value artistic value uh economic values like yeah it can get complicated social media which would have reduced about half of these posts in the first place these values don't mean anything to anybody outside of a perpetually and terminally online group of of mostly freaks i mean let's be honest there's a lot of furries here okay personal attacks rule don't have an anti-argument oh yeah and also by the way um there's a lot of people that were making fun of uh my room uh the fact that i had a dead rat for an alarm clock oh i i'm sorry what i don't know about that well i need some context on that one um i didn't catch that even was a rat i'll i'll i'll play an alarm clock covered by a rat so by the way um there's a lot of people that were making fun of uh my room uh the fact that i had a dead rat for an alarm clock what does it mean i assume it's an alarm clock like a novel alarm clock shaped like a rat that like scratch is that sort of like how you power a clock with a potato you can just plug it into a rat's corpse there's something bad news for all of you oh no it's so so when he said that i was like fuck yeah you're correct nobody should be saying you're wrong on this subject because you have a dirty room or because you have a dead rat for an alarm wait what and i was like what and so i googled it and and i have fetched the context so that we could understand what he's talking about because that i thought the exact same thing i thought he he had a novelty alarm clock that was like a porcelain thing there's a dead rat and the people made fun of him for that was something i was like i wouldn't care about that right yeah this brings back yeah all of the stuff where where before we came onto the screen you were like you gotta be ready for this this was not as you can tell from the portion of this video i was like yeah this has all been chill we can just check out the arguments respond and then he said that and i was like what are you talking about i had i've never heard about this before and a lot of people have even assumed it's like he's just being hyperbolic okay wait does he explain the alarm clock i'm just gonna let it play john we're just gonna let it go okay here we go i told that we're making fun of uh my room uh the fact that i had a dead rat for an alarm clock the fact that i wiped blood on the walls uh the fact that most of my teeth have fallen out and i would just like to remind you that that person has a better grip on reality than you do there's been like a dead rat in my house for like the past fucking like three days and i can't find where he is because you can smell the fucker but you don't know where he is and the thing is what's so annoying about that is the fact that like you have a dead rat in the house and you don't rat in the house and you don't know where he is who's a dead rat as an old as an old why is it skipping fuck it's not skipping it for it did on our head the the fucking some other channels going on about that is the fact that like you have a dead rat in the house and you don't know where he is and you can actually use a dead rat as an alarm clock because whenever the sun comes out the rat will begin to smell bad and the smell will wake you back up from your sleep get the dead rat out i don't need too anymore it doesn't smell bad it would the thing is i used to use a dead rat as an alarm clock actually uh for my crowd because basically what happened was whenever the sun would come up it would start cooking the corpse of the rat and then it would start smelling again and then the smell would wake me up so i would use the rat effectively as an alarm clock and as soon as i uh as soon as it you know it got hot enough it would wake me up and then i would know oh shit it's time to stream that that person has a better grip on reality than you do have you guys ever done that before okay i'm not even gonna ask about the blood wall i don't even know if i even want to know so um this is a meme this is not real that's so funny this is a meme right don't you know what don't let the big part dissuade you from man i've got a dead rat somewhere in my house that's making it smell but you can like close all your doors and then you could check and see which room smells it's not just that it's the someone that asked him like oh any luck with the dead rat he said it doesn't matter anymore because it stops smelling yeah it doesn't matter it's fine just leave it just leave it there the the desecrated sorry this is this is not a meme i don't think it's a meme i don't think he's joking as he seems serious about that if how do you i'm trying to be as like a fairer understanding i mean it's it's it's fucking funny but i don't like that well i surely this like health concerns like yeah like that's not good like rotting corpses around you are not good the fumes and the gases and just like you're inviting other things because of that like bugs and roaches and like i mean and plus isn't there like doesn't it ever kick in that sense of like like i don't know pride or not even pride like self respect well so a lot of people saying he's a hoarder it's like i thought hoarders collect things that aren't dead animals i don't know if a thing crawls in their collection and dies well it's theirs now i mean to be fair i think like he would see the humor in it like if you were to like you know point it out but like he he also like he can't find the rat like i'm sure like he wants to get rid of the smell i don't think he looked very hard because imagine the work it would take to move all that shit around to find where the rat is people say there's loads more lore about heaven like his his stuff he gets up to one of the things i had read is that he you'll apparently like he doesn't care about eating things that well over expiry date like um and that some of his fans have concerns he's gonna accidentally kill himself at some point because he'll eat you know something that's well too far he fell out or whatever well that's gonna potentially happen i guess if you don't could that happen for me in expired things or would that just be like not brushing them i don't know it's probably it could be all sorts of things yeah you've seen it next to his desk he has like lots of soda right he has yeah hundreds of things of soda so he clearly drinks a lot of i know nothing about the blood wall and several people said don't look into the blood wall so i don't want to look into it all right i don't take you i don't think i don't know what the fuck that's about like why wouldn't you just have some paper towel on stand by like you do that once maybe like just to like get rid of the excess if you're bleeding a lot but then you wipe the wall off surely like clean it up like you don't just leave it there but why would you even like this is what i mean i was so confused at the end where he was just like people have been bringing up my blood wall my dead rat i was like what the fuck what even what what does this have to do with and the funny part is like this has nothing to do with his argumentation but now i'm just curious about the dead rat alarm clock which like i said i thought was gonna be porcelain with a little tongue hanging out or something yeah it's like it's a like it's a funny little mouse with x's for eyes it's a fake mousetrap and you like oh you hit it and it goes squeak squeak or whatever or something no no i thought it was going to be using the chemical composition of a real rat corpse to somehow power an alarm clock like a potato like a little bit of a mad scientist yeah but i just you know what as well he's like yeah you could use it as alarm clocks like is that even that effective like i feel like that would be fairly inconsistent depending on like what the weather is and the temperature that you keep your room and do you keep them on the window still or do you maybe do you have like a micro magnifying glass that's aimed at the rat because if it's not directly in the sun it's not kind of warm up that much it'll just really it'll probably just it'll just take the temperature of the room if it's not in the sunlight i'm sure that would narrow it down i don't even want to think about i'm stunned and apparently there's there's a lot more of the like you could see house tours from other people that the this is just apparently just it's just normal and it's like okay as in like it's it's not some crazy thing to album gold fans and it's crazy because i've been aware of him for a long time i never knew about any of the this uh but it's not there's another thing if i didn't want people to know that or make fun of me for it i wouldn't have said it look at i'm gonna look at i think they're a little smaller this is and there's music in the background no what is that you remember how i mentioned like i was surprised none of you wanted to like poke into why it was so weird about asking about whether you would you meant that was the rat thing i like the surprise of it i wanted to be surprised no no no not that no no no i'm saying the about halfway through the stream i said hypothetically if you had some bread that you spawned some maggots in could you imagine anyone could could you imagine anyone choosing to eat that after noticing that is that what's on that that's what this is how it's linked and that's what he says in the clip he's like look you can see them uh you obviously it's not very high defs you can't really make it out what see right there i don't know if i should eat those or not i kind of feel like that that person has a better grip on reality than you do but i do that's actually gross this really what i when i was like what what like what is the context for the thing that loads people commented this like oh yeah this is as bad as eating the maggots this is like why why oh my god i just needed like make sure everyone understands don't do any of these things please don't yeah that's awful do not do that for you um and i understand like people who are fans of his stuff no wonder they want to stop doing stuff like that it's like this could kill you um get some terrible disease or infection or something gross is one thing unhealthy is another like you don't do unhealthy things yeah i don't know what to say about that there's not much to say who actually try to genuinely put on a uh an attempt to listen to other people's perspectives and point of views points of view and like that's that is something i generally try to do now is it something that i always do no i do not always do this but it is something that i generally try to do two plus hours explaining yourself but if you express how you feel in a painting song suddenly you wouldn't matter this is a bald face who's got a couple viral tweets going after him i mean this is the two hours is him responding to arguments you know so i it's not like he's done a two-hour essay about why how right he is and then secondly um the wouldn't matter part again it's it's been misunderstood as being like a general casual as opposed to economically speaking which has been the whole problem pretty much i think remember flappy bird hugely popular game these are the tweets that came out after the video people still copy its gameplay today remember how the creator of flappy bird stopped selling it for a while because he felt it was too addictive it's almost like that was proof that an artist's feelings could directly impact consumers yeah and i think this is something that i'd like as mongol to talk about is the economic impact of a single artist's opinion whether it be the one who created it or someone who influences the one who created it even this uh right yeah i keep thinking about what a t age bomber guy said in his bare mind these all had fucking like 30k likes on it it was crazy latest video regarding how plagiarists fundamentally don't respect the people they steal from and how that can be applied to i algorithms ripping off artists and what that says about the people who created and you said algos and that i i'm not even sure as mongol would disagree with that um you would you would say like yeah it is indicative of how a lot of people don't care and that that's something that i would hope as mongol to say that's something that maybe should change and we should try and do something about it where we can you know not in some kind of crazy way but making people more aware of the things they should appreciate behind the things that they love that um and then this was the other clip that went viral and i think it's so fucking dumb that he's getting like the cancellation because the title of this stream by the way that the trial of as mongol is more so related to the internet's trial of him i guess you could say we've done a trial of him but i wouldn't really go that direction i'm also just checking out what happened and then using it as a vehicle to just talk about some stuff because we like chatting here and uh this one this one's just funny uh but he's like there's like people who fucking the commentary on this clip has been said like i guess i'll play it first in vengeance i am the night i am batman that doesn't sound like batman to me yeah like i just i i don't see that that sounds like alfred not so and that's the clip um the reason that would have gone viral for anyone who doesn't know is that's essentially the quintessential voice of batman kevin conroy kevin conroy yeah yeah he so it's uh but it's just the final role for him right in any batman thing or anything in general yeah that's why it says thank you kevin you can see it well in faint yeah in faint text there um but yeah i would i would attribute this to a writing problem not a delivery problem i mean it clearly is kevin conroy but like just the line of like batman just jumps in like i am vengeance like like why would he say that what i assume i'm motivating him there he's not saying it but i don't know also this is meant to be the all the justice league evil right because it's for the suicide squad game yes um but there were people who say like i want this for man fucking dead i would see this clip i was like jesus wow oh okay we'll get and it like had significant levels of likes and it's like oh my god and it's uh it's a thing of like if you've annoyed people in any other way and then they share clips like this they'll just be like yeah this is reason for you to be taken away from it it's like what the fuck um that's from the animated series iconic scene with joker that's the thing i don't think it's i don't think we're supposed to think that is from what we saw in the trailer um like he doesn't enter that place and then say that at least i can't know for sure but yeah well even if he did right they took what they could get because they wanted to oh you know do an homage to somebody that worked with them that was now dead absolutely yeah i mean and the yeah people like how the fuck don't you know that is batman's voice and stuff like that and it's just like well i guess yeah he just didn't but that that's it that's that's all i could gather for why those people like as what gold needs to be destroyed i was like i mean well yeah because if you're not a big like if you're not in a batman or you never really watched any batman content you just might flat out not know that um i guess one might argue he probably should see i'm assuming he's played all the arkham games i don't know you would thought uh yeah i don't know uh because i haven't played any to my knowledge i figure that you would have just heard you would have heard kevin conroy as batman in one way or another because he's been playing the character for like 30 years um like all across the number of 91 yeah i've crossed uh video games for mediums yeah animated films that you figure that you would have heard him at one point he is he is the quintessential like voice of batman yeah which is why this went viral i guess but uh they have it and i think i've got one bonus meme this is uh that's made aware of bonus meantime i've seen this i know this you have seen this so i almost i don't want to give any preamble to chat because they're so familiar with these two crazy characters so we're just gonna play this clip they could i could let chat be like wait what just happened hey chat if anyone's just listening this is where you need to you need to look at the screen okay look at what happens this is a visual required eyeballs needed we melt their strikes on iran iran demanding answers amid an escalating spat with pakistan overnight pakistan launch retaliatory strikes on targets in southeastern iran just across their shared can i just i just want to highlight like ex-qc's fucking reaction of like that's bad when ex-qc is uh the ex-qc's the the right one here yeah over night pakistan asan leaves strikes on targets in southeastern iran just across their shared and the video was not interrupted or changed in any way no this is not an edit this is a number of militants but iran says no wait hold on hold on change shirt you smell are you telling me that i reacted to a edgy to edge visual video about the whole thing about the whole ordeal and i get canceled for reacting and you're telling me the same people are praising it this guy this editor who went after me and he literally modifies the video where he gets off the fucking screen um carrying out deadly military so yeah the the the hasad has found a new way to the criticisms of all being around that it is unbelievable that in his world in his mind he's like the problem was that it was an empty chair that was so the way that i solved that problem is not by pausing the video or remaining in place and reacting to the video and providing commentary the solution is putting visual on screen of the reacting and that solves the problem yes right i was like i don't understand it how how is that possible how is that possible that he thinks that that would the problem was the chair that was the problem so i'll fix it by putting just a canned reaction image of me on screen yes i can't just pause the video for a few moments while i go pee and then come back i can't stand because remember how he's like well i had the video on my phone when i left so it's all good he just was incapable of understanding what the problem was he couldn't do it it was impossible yeah it's so funny though because it's just proof that this bothers him to no end that he doesn't know how to solve it by being against normal person i mean isn't this storytelling the fact that he feels compelled to put an image of ah look at me i'm reacting woohoo instead of an empty chair means he knows that there's something wrong that's what i said yeah what i think is really funny is that people are are the the argument that people are making about this is oh no not cnn oh how would you take the advertising dollars away from cnn it's like that is you have completely missed the point you're like not even human your brain is not because it's cnn cnn is not allowed to what make money off of like there because it's cnn there are lots of the value of the things that they've made completely extracted by hasan that was easily the number one response in in in defense of this clip that i've seen well easily i also want to but then why did hasan do what he did it's like so but anyway exactly i i someone said like free cub believe this has he seen hasan previously i have to defend the idea that this is a new low like he's stunning he's got that's such a pathetic attempt at hiding it look how obvious it is he's not wearing the same clothes like let me just click the button that puts me on automatic i gotta be yeah there we go done loading or whatever it's like there it is i think i'm still here reacting to videos when i'm like he literally just doesn't want people screenshot in the empty chair that's it yes so pathetic i mean there's ways there's ways you could have masked this right like for one take out the dialogue where he says i'm gonna go pee so like like the audience they hear that they're gonna be like okay he's leaving his chair now and all of a sudden he's back there again like okay you clearly edited this if they took that piece of dialogue out they could assume that okay maybe there was some visual glitch or something even though you can't really assume that because the cnn footage is still proceeding uninterrupted but then you also could have put you could have you could have put an artificial jump cut in the cnn footage as well to sort of cover that up like there's things the editor could have done but just didn't bother like all of that is so funny to me just pausing you know i can't he can't just pause once i watch out my phone so it's all good that's what's so sad right like he can't just be like i'm not here to react to this right now i am just going to pause the video do my thing come back and then i'll resume and then the reaction why because he wants he wants to extract all of the the value of the video yeah he doesn't want to he doesn't want to lose viewers right like because of the video goes paused people are gonna like get out oh this is the benefits of the video while doing nothing to transform it or turn it into my own creation or still benefiting from it it's just hilarious that he thinks that he's done he's achieved something by well say look it's not an empty chair it's me with a canned reaction a canned generic non-speaking reaction to this video it's so lame yeah it's like it's so counterproductive because this is a massive red it's not even a red flag it's like a siren a wailing siren it's a what are they called a a cacklon a cat what's the noise klaxon yeah like a big noisy whiny thing with signs that say look at me look at me and look what i've done that's all this does is you're bringing an insane amount of attention to it if he would have done his normal bad thing people might have just gone yeah that's a sign just up to his you know old no just bullshit again you know he's doing bad stuff what is he supposed to do die i i i don't know man it's still the other option i guess if it's this or die you know well it's quite a quandary quite a moral quandary but he can no longer with this clip i think he can no longer make the argument that he doesn't know it's bad or that isn't bad right like or that it's fair use or that it's transformative or any of that i don't think you can make any of those arguments that he's made in the past because now you're saying oh look you clearly know that this is an issue in some way right and it doesn't matter what argument you make about it if it is an issue because oh somebody isn't there reacting then you know whatever or oh people will leave if they don't see you whatever your argument ends up being it is clear that there is a problem with having an empty chair and somebody not no he would just tell you he's just trying to counter people doing memes of like spreading lies about him by doing screenshots of his chair what was the thing recently is him getting mad at like lsf about people making fun of him yeah why would they ever