If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump. With your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. Isn't it crazy that it was the, we were the least excited about it? If I was being completely honest, I lagged the most on looking them up. I was the least excited to talk to them. I almost feel like this, this always happens to us. It's like, that's why I'm like, even this, we, so we have an interview tomorrow that when we fly to LA, we're going to go interview someone who I don't like. No. And he rubbed me the wrong way because over a year and a half ago, we reached out to him.  We went back and forth. Yeah. I'm going to see if he remembers that, bro. So, but I've watched Univision be the big thing. I told myself, I'm, we're, we're going and I'm not going to get upset. We're going to, because it always ends up this way. The ones that I am frustrated about or I care the least about and thrive for sure.  The ability for them to, bro, their model is, is the, that's the future. Oh, it's like game over. That's the future. How, if you can offer me, they'll get bought by Amazon. Yeah. Well, that or it'll become the direct competitor. I believe my thoughts after, after now understanding and seeing thrive and their mark or seeing their business, I believe that that has to do with Amazon's purchase of whole foods. And that's part of their strategy is to become, think about it. If your whole foods, you probably have some of the best organic connections in the country. So that is probably the, the hardest part for thrive. Like he said on there is to get your good streamlines of good organic foods.   They have a membership system that's different. That's all, that's all coming, bro. That's all coming. It's why it'd be, it's why. Listen, in this episode of Mind Pump, we get to interview two good friends of ours. We have Martin Silva, who's a competitive physique competitor. He's actually ranked pretty high in which, which organization? WBFF. WBFF. Good looking guy, shredded and his friend, Andrew Bond, who's a personal trainer that I know personally. I've actually worked with. And in this episode, we actually talk a lot about building your fitness business, either as a personal trainer or doing it online. There's a lot of really good information in this episode about, you know, how do you build a business in fitness? Because you have some people who are very successful as personal trainers or gym managers or knowledgeable. They understand the body. You and I have dealt with this for many, many years. A lot of times I would get a guy or a girl just brilliant mind, great with people, but then just cannot make any money because they can't sell themselves. That's right. And there's a lot of moving parts there. In fact, this is an area that in particular, me and Adam trained lots of people for large fitness organizations specifically on this. In fact, I trained probably more trainers than I did clients, to be quite honest. And we talk a lot about what to do in this episode. And we recorded this episode a while ago. We hadn't aired it until now because we wanted to put together a date for a free, you know, mastermind here at Mind Pump Media for trainers. It's how to build a six figure plus business in the fitness industry is the idea. And the reason why it's free is because we know this first time and it will just be completely transparent with what we're doing right now. And that is we want to invite, you know, we're going to bring down, I don't know how many, however many we can fit. I know Doug will decide that as far as how many people actually be able to fit in here that we can organize and run it right. And then it's going to be a lot of conversation because we want to find out what are the things that we can do to help those that are wanting to either either get into the fitness industry or already currently in there and want to make more money doing that. So this first one is going to be a lot about finding out where can we help you as much as possible. And we're going to, we're going to hang out with you guys for hours and talk about your business and what you can do online, what you can do when you present your product to people, whether it's personal training or your gym.  We're just limited with space. It's October 21st. It's here in San Jose at Mind Pump Media Studio headquarters. It's going to be in the morning, probably around 10 a.m. I think. It'll be at 10 a.m. We're going to go all day long though. It's going to be an all day event. We'll be there all day and it'll start at 10 o'clock in the morning. And you know, right now we haven't closed off on the time that we're going to stop it at because I have a feeling it's going to go. I can't wait, man. I can't wait to like sit down with people and like dive into their business and help them out. And again, it's completely free. So here's how you can sign up for it. Again, remember, space is limited. So get on there quick because it probably will fill up fast. It's mindpumpmedia.com forward slash P, the letter P forward slash money. Again, let me repeat that. Mindpumpmedia.com forward slash P forward slash money. So without any further ado, here we are talking to Martin Silva. You can find him on Instagram at Martin Silva Fitness and talking to Andrew Bond, who you can find on Instagram at Mr. Bond Fitness. Here we go. We have two guests with us today.  That's right. Martin Silva. Now you're a professional physique competitor from the UK. Yes. I read an article about you. It said you were one of the up and coming talent coming out of the USA. It was out of the UK. Excuse me. It was a very exciting article. Oh, thanks. Thanks. I don't know who wrote it. I wrote that one. I wrote that one. Like my mom did. And then we got... Whoever wrote it, hats off to him. And then you came with your friend Andrew Bond, who's a personal trainer out on the East Coast. That's correct. East Coast in New York. You guys have social medias you want to plug? Yeah. Well, my Instagram is at Martin Silva Fitness and my YouTube channel, which is up and coming. I'm trying to grow that a bit more. It's just Martin Silva Fitness on YouTube. So that's pretty much it really. Excellent. It's got a lot of handles. My Facebook as well. You do a lot of like a pornography photos and stuff. Yeah. I want to keep down on the downloads. I want to keep the soft part on the side, right? Can I tell you what happened? Legit, right? So I started... So when you were following us and we would talk back and forth. So I'd like your photos. I want to show you support.  Oh, yeah. I'll admit to that.  Next thing I know, the search function.   Yeah. This is what he told us anyway. He's getting worried about you. Yeah. I'm like, it's because of Martin. You ruined it for me. Oh, that's great, man. That's good to hear. I ruined your life. Yeah.  Just the search part. Just your Instagram, yeah. Andrew, where do they find you on social media? You can find me on Instagram at Mr. Bond Fitness. As in Bond B-O-N-D. That's a great last name. James. Andrew Bond sometimes. Now you guys have been in fitness for a long time. You're both also personal trainers. And you've been listening to Mind Pump. How did you guys find... Andrew, you found us first. I found you stumbled across you by chance, really. I was following your boy Joe. Joe Donnelly. Oh. Shout out to Joe Donnelly. You love a bit of Joe, don't you? What a great guy. And he's such a friendly.  Very stable. Shout out to Joe D. Shout out. Shout out. Go follow Joe Donnelly Fitness. What's the ground if you can? Yeah, or don't. So I just stumbled across this page, comment section. And some girl commented, I love the podcast you were on. And luckily enough I was just starting going into podcasts at that time. And I looked up your obviously Mind Pump media and I started backtracking through all your podcasts. Thoroughly enjoyed them. And then I just sent you over to Martin. I'd like to give you my little story on my first episode of Mind Pump, quickly. He introduced me. I scrolled through the list. The first one I listened to was the CrossFit one. Sold straight away. It was hilarious. So I was hooked straight on. And obviously I learned a lot off the episode as well. So I was tuned in then from the CrossFit one. Well, that's like the beginning. That's right. I backtracked through most of them. And then just caught up then though. Don't catch up nowadays because you just slow down a bit. You do need to slow down. You miss one week within. We talk a lot. We like doing that. You were saying how it changed the way you train yourself and train people through the show. What changed about it? Because you were really into the physique world at that moment as well. Yeah. So I stepped on stage for the first time about three and a half years ago. And basically my whole lifting career has been the typical bro splits, you know. Split in the body parts. Never really focusing on doing the bodies a whole. You know, focusing on training frequency and adaptation as you guys integrate into the programs. So it was just switching over and hitting the body parts more regular. Just to dumb it down, hitting the body parts more regular by doing the three total body sessions. The first plan I'd done was the red maps, which had awesome results off. The trigger sessions work a treat on the days in between and that. But yeah, anyway, I've always done bro splits and done different body parts. And then I switched over to the red maps. And I've done the whole night. It's nine weeks, I think the red maps one. The results were insane. I mean, strength also physique as well. And just the fullness of my muscles from doing those trigger sessions of vascularity, everything. And then I went, maybe I should have done the green maps in between, but I went over to the black maps and aesthetics leading up to a show actually, leading up to the world championships. And then I actually had a coach of my own. So I switched over to a different plan. But yeah, in hindsight, I probably would have been better off just sticking to the black maps. So I've done that leading up to coming out here as well for the cast and I had out here, then a black maps aesthetics, just then a phase two and phase three at the end. And yeah, I apply that now. I apply that style of training now to my clients. And how are they doing with it? Really well. Yeah, really well because you train some people, as you know, once or maybe twice a week. So to get most things covered within that time and get the maximum results really, the frequency element comes in a lot there as well. So I'll do two sessions with someone and I'll cover all the compound exercises within those two workouts and get two foundational workouts in with them along those lines of red maps and black maps. And I've integrated prime into that as well, obviously with all my clients. And what's been a really, really good selling point out in Australia. Because obviously I moved over there to start from scratch in my PT business. Is the prime assessments, what are they called again? Oh yeah, compass. On the initial session they worked. How many years now have you been training clients? Long time, over a decade.  Yeah, since I was 19, 20. Oh shit, you started early like I did. Started early, yeah, like you guys. Yes, that's why I can relate a lot to a lot of the stuff you talk about. Very cool. Yeah, it blows me away how full circle some of the stuff is coming. Because one of the impetus that kind of got me to create the first maps program was identifying how the old time strong men and bodybuilders trained before the introduction of steroids or even before the introduction of protein powders like way back in the day. And you'd read about their feats of strength and you'd see pictures of their physiques and it was very impressive, especially considering they had no, none of them dieted, none of them did anything other than they would, they would train a particular way and they all trained kind of these full body type routines and they would all write about certain things like I'd read about Eugene Sandow and you know some of these other strong men and aesthetic looking physiques back in those days and they would say things like don't train to failure but they would use other terminology and they'd talk about training muscles more frequently how in between their workouts they would practice movements at low intensities and once I started kind of opening my mind a little bit and applying that to myself and to my clients it blew me away and mainly it blew me away because it was so opposite. It was so opposite from what I was reading in the bodybuilding magazines and the fitness you know forums and stuff and the funny thing now it's coming full circle. One of our forum members just shared an article from T Nation which by the way is a great for the most part they've got great articles and they just there was an article published I think about maybe four months ago three months ago that they shared and the title of it is split routines are dead that's literally what they say which I would have never expected from a bodybuilding you know muscle building you know blog or whatever so it was really really cool but so you're both personal trainers but you guys were also both talking about trying to build that in other realms are there what do you guys look into to do we talked about online coaching potentially and definitely online coaching I feel that now that I'm trying to look into other businesses like real estate back home my sister because I can't see me doing pushing out 10-12 sessions a day like I'm doing at the moment it's so tiring that it's something I don't want to do into the into the future as passionate as I am about it and I can't see myself doing that in my 40s 50s people don't realize when you train you know seven clients or eight clients in a day they think you train seven or eight hours think it's easy man working with different personalities for the seven to eight hours as well it's difficult mentally training you know it's not just I mean you're physically actually lifting weights and spotting people for seven eight hours but then on top of that you're also like you said you're on you're exactly you're on you're talking to if you're good right if you're really good you're a chameleon and you're able to mirror whatever client you have which is going to require absorbing the energy right bringing in which a lot of times is super draining hell yeah so I think a lot of people don't realize how much that takes to be able to and then to do it well right because you're trying to give a very personalized great session great you know training regimen from somebody who is fully on you don't want one client paying the same as your first client who gets energy filled at him when he gets to work but just like you said before actually I just came back to me then you said you know which I've something I've taken on board is a good trainer is always a therapist before they are actually a trainer makes sense so it's delving deeper into the psychological issues and elements and components that come to come into getting you know achieving your goals and that's the part which can be taxing and that is the psychological side of it the energy you're kind of in fact I just got I don't know if you don't mind me sharing but so I work with Andrew virtually so I do some coaching with him and he had asked me you know how you if I had any techniques or any advice for when you know you work with the client how to not take on their stress or not take on their some of their issues because when you're working with people on a one-on-one basis people will come in with problems they'll come in with stresses they'll come in with just their energy could be you know low or or they could be you know irritable or whatever in a bad mood and it's hard not to take that on especially if you're an empathetic individual which most personal trainers who stay as personal trainers part of the reason why they do it is they like people they are empathetic individuals so it becomes a very difficult thing not to mention again like like we were just talking about earlier you're on the entire time so if you're working eight hours for those you listening to have a typical you know nine to five job you know most of you are not working for eight hours you're not on for eight hours well the irony is the better you get the harder it becomes the better you become at your job which is that ability to be a chameleon to be able to service each one of those people individually and give them what they need energy motivation direction wise it becomes more even more taxing on you right. So it's taxing using the concepts that I've learned though you know recently even for this podcast alone is it's just actually getting to take a step back a lot of the time because people are normally too stressed out in life aren't they they're normally doing too much or they're not doing enough they're not eating right they're not doing enough mobility so it's taking them a step slow down and focus more on you know stretching and then you know doing maybe a strength phase with them and doing different things with them and kind of getting them to like I said slow down is a hard task within itself and at this day and age well one thing that I so you know I thought a lot about Andrew's question when he asked me that and I gave him some advice but then I thought some more about it and I realized that one of the things that I did that was really effective as a personal trainer that made it easy for me was I started to become a little bit selfish and what I mean by that is I started to realize that as much as I had to show and teach my clients and the reason that they hired me I also was able to learn and grow from them so you know I got an opportunity to train you know a doctor or a surgeon well during the session I'm going to ask them questions about things I'm interested in that have to do with medicine medications or procedures or maybe someone's an executive at a tech company I'm going to ask them questions about what they're doing it does there is a dual purpose there people do like to de-stress by talking about certain things and it makes them feel better on the flip side I'm learning I get the opportunity to work with all these different personalities and learn from them and the result of that was doing after doing that for 10 years of working with all these professionals was I was just I just became well versed in all these different subjects and I looked forward to showing up to work rather than sometimes being like oh man I'm so tired what am I to do is like oh shit I get to go meet with so and so who's a you know who's a general surgeon I can't wait to hear about the cases that they've been working on and I would ask them detailed questions they actually appreciated it I got something out of it and then I didn't feel like I was just giving giving giving and going home you know totally spent and that became the highlight of personal training for me was it was like I was going to school every single day and I would come out of it you know smarter and you know more informed and again the side effect was I became so much of a better personal trainer as a result but I'd say one of the biggest drawbacks of personal training is a career if you're going to stay in that you know that particular specific part of the field is you're limited by the amount of hours of the day you can't see more than I mean eight clients a day five days a week is very very exhausting in fact when we work for big corporate fitness facilities they considered full time six six clients a day was full time I also think that the business model is changing it's changing and it will continue to change and I think fitness is a little bit behind and that was part of what inspired Mind Pump when we got together we all kind of saw that like man when you look at like and we're lucky we're blessed we're in the Silicon Valley so we get to see a lot of tech stuff move pretty fast and we see it early before the rest of the country does right so that being said I think when and someone Justin loves this stuff when you start looking at like where all these other businesses are moving and fitness is really kind of the stone age we kind of knew that I foresee that one on one type of coaching that that's starting to go away more and more and more because there's always going to be those people out there that will pay whatever amount of money to have one person giving them all their attention there that will be a market there but that it's going to shrink because we went through in about 2000 and if you guys should remember because you've been around so long is in the early 2000s we went through that huge boom everybody was making money everyone was spending money on personal training it was cool to say I had a personal trainer and then we hit the bubble burst and the market took a shit and then all of a sudden training actually became a really like it was hard to get a client now where I was part of the era before during and after and I remember that transition and what that felt like everybody was doing boot camps at that point and I did also right so I at one point realize like I got used to a certain amount of income as a trainer and now in order to make that same kind of money I had to get creative I had to do other things than just take on all these people that wanted a personal trainer to say they had a personal trainer now only the people that could afford it were coming and getting training and so that that forced me to think outside the box and that when the group training and I was doing that a long time ago and you see now like orange theories your soul cycles all these little small little boxes are like the new thing right where they have it's almost like private coaching because you get a trainer to yourself but then there's 20 to 30 in a class so it's intimate but yet class like so you see that model going right now you have metrics and all these biomarkers that you can sort of follow and I think that's honestly that's where the tech boom is really kind of coming in and they're trying to grab all these different like data points and so you know if you're a trainer now I think what's the smart approach and you're talking about being able to scale right that's the biggest issue because like you can only train so many hours of the day you really got to figure out your process you got to figure out your protocol and like every single step to that process like make notes and keep that in your mind as far as like how can you duplicate yourself how can you duplicate yourself write it all out what are the steps you take with each individual case what are the variables all that kind of stuff because later on that's going to be valuable because you're going to be able to now take a lot of that information and you're going to be able to put it in some form of an app or some form of a tech a device and you're going to be able to reach a lot more people. That's my plan that's actually obviously I came over here for like a modeling gig providing I land this it should pay really well and I'm looking to I've had a website in place by the way you can check it out shameless plug I want to try and build that it's also selling maps programs on there as well we appreciate it it's www.redtube.com that's not YouTube it's martin-silver but anyway yeah I'm looking to focus more on the online stuff and like you said the main thing is to scale it I'm actually designing my own programs obviously out of where we sell inspired by you guys so from what I've learned and stuff I'm looking to get my own programs in place now as a first step there's a few other things I've got in mind ideas as well but like you said about an app as well I've been looking into potentially doing that one day as well but yeah that's where it's at really you've got to kind of move with the times if you like now there's a lot of capitalized on that and you can you can move into that into that realm but there's a lot of trainers who don't want to and they say look I just want to work with clients I just want to work with people I want to touch people I want to be in front of people I don't necessarily want to spread out which is fine too but there are smart ways of doing it one thing yeah but when you say that a trainer that says that to me is the same thing I'd say back to that trainer who's like oh I just want to be a trainer I just want to help people I just don't but I don't want to sell anything like it's a business no no no I'm not even saying that yes you do got to do that but what I was going to say is there's very smart ways of structuring your business that are going to help you be more successful like for example the way Justin's did his personal training the way he structured the way clients paid him I think he's fucking brilliant that I was I didn't even do when I had my my wellness facility I wish I did because it was I don't know if you want to kind of go into how that works yeah usually with personal training the way it works is people will buy sessions right they'll buy a package of sessions 10 sessions 20 sessions 30 sessions you try and hustle them through these sessions in order to get a re-sign yeah exact and you had it set up a little differently yeah so I basically kind of flipped it and made sure that I have a month to month basis of like okay you have an availability you have you know one two three you know sort of sessions available for you per week and so you know what we do is we agree upon this ahead of time so you know within the month you have X amount of sessions that you can you know accomplish and we're going to go ahead and schedule it out and do all this ahead of time but you're going to pay me for that up front and you know my time is valuable your time is valuable this actually puts it back the ball back into their court so it's not like you as a trainer you have to like constantly barrage them with text messages and trying to get them to stay motivated and come into the gym and I mean obviously you're still going to want to do that because you want the long term you know you want them to keep enjoying the process but you know you have to think of yourself as a professional and like this you have to value yourself and so you know I charge it up front and I charge a flat fee and then so it would be X amount of dollars that they pay just monthly yep and it's sessions available and it's up to them so if they don't show up then they lose it or they lose it or they can maximize them and use them so I'm available three sessions exactly we can you know it's $3,000 a month or whatever your fee is and so then you get you have a bunch of clients who are paying you a flat monthly fee as a personal trainer business wise it's good because you know when Justin told me how he structured I was like fuck that's the way it needs to go because one of the biggest problems with being a personal trainer is the instability of monthly income that's the other thing yeah because you could go like this month I re-sign all these people then for two months I don't and I don't know how to this is like you know exactly what your monthly and there's ways to kind of like if you're currently just doing like 10, 20, 30 session you know like the old kind of model where you're trying to sell those as packages and you're trying to run these people through so once it ends up I just started to slowly kind of convert all my clients into this month to month basis and you know obviously you kind of give them a little bit of a break you know because it's a flat fee so you know but even just scaling back a little bit on price for a flat fee per month it was a consistent payment process now I have like ways that I can incorporate that money and plan out my marketing strategy you know all the other components of business that you need to have reliable income to lean on so that was huge yeah what I like about that too is it puts more responsibility to the client to show up and work out and that model what's that what's that called it's called something because they're doing it with health care now some doctors are doing it yeah and it's popular for you to group things personally I think that was great four years ago when Justin was killing it and doing it I think now you need to have evolved your social media business to a point because that is the direction it's going you will see this mark my words in the next couple years I don't know where you guys are at what the big chains are over here it's like the 24 hour fitness to LA fitness these are the big chains you will see big chains their training staff will be full of 10 trainers not only will they all be educated experienced fit good looking but they'll also have 10,000 instagram followers 5,000 oh yeah you gotta have that will become part of your already seeing this in other in other parts in other parts of the other industries that are always ahead of fitness fitness is always behind on this shit but you're already where application process will ask for people's social media following because there's a lot of power in employing somebody who is if I got the if I have the two of you and you're you're coming to me and you want a job let's say for mind bump you're gonna come work you want to work for me I'm gonna offer you great great pay I like you both a lot you both pass all the characteristics strict test and I go well he's got 10,000 followers he doesn't he doesn't like social media he's off of it he doesn't care what that well who the fuck am I gonna hire it's it's a no brainer that's 10,000 people you're automatically introducing to my business by hiring you on your and multiply that by 10 15 20 trainers this will become a necessity whether you decide to work for a company or you decide to go privately on your own actually more so if you work for yourself yeah it's almost mandatory if you're gonna be by yourself so Justin's model I'm not knocking that because four years that's part of it that'd be part of it the social media is another part of it you can that you can fix right now like if you're a trainer right now and you're not doing that you can convert over that that could be a transition you make tomorrow but you you better bet your ass that if you're not getting on your social media as at least as a business and I'll tell you what and this is coming from a guy who didn't turn on his Facebook didn't turn on all that shit I hated all that I remember when you used to message me back in the day when we first started kind of talking a little bit you know Adam would send me messages like dude you need to fucking get on Instagram when I you know me and Doug were putting maps together and I'm like Instagram who cares I don't want to get on Instagram it's like no you have to get on it you don't even know and I'm like I don't know and I mean whatever I don't even care about it I mean I obviously should have listened back then because it'd be a lot bigger now but I mean it's it's becoming a huge part of business it will become I totally agree with you Adam it will become the biggest part of business crazy your net your net worth like I say all the time right your true net worth is your net circle and you before you even decide how you're gonna make money any of those things you can be working on your net circle and I think this is where a lot of people make a mistake we get so caught up in what I'm going to sell and how am I going to make money versus I need to find the people that would even be considering buying anything from me and that should be my main priority and if I I need to have something of value to get them to tune in and listen to what I have to say and if I'm still having a hard time doing that I'm putting all my energy in figuring that out before I'm even thinking about my yeah no I 100% agree and to bring it back to like the the old you know when when I was actually in the business doing it that way I was constantly running like Google ads I was I was optimizing my website you know I was doing all the legwork online to then get the traffic and get that all established because you know with that type of model you need to you need to constantly be focused on your marketing and driving that business towards you so at that point like when they sign up it's great because it's reliable income but you know that's freeing up my time to work more on you know marketing you know this is a great conversation because I know I get messages from fitness people all the time trainers who are always asking me how they can build their social media and how they can you know turn that part or at least use that part to help build their business this isn't just for trainers in my opinion I think this is everybody well I mean just because that's anybody who wants to be self-employed right well that's just because that's our wheelhouse right I usually don't get real estate people a message about that but but so here's another part of that because a lot of them are just worried about the size of their social media like how many followers I can get and Adam you had an interesting experience with your Instagram page when we first started mine pump you had the social media presence none of us did at all so that would kind of give us a little start but it changed and it shifted with mine pump and it actually became more effective later on even though with yeah with less yeah so explain that maybe because I always get people asking me how they can get it bigger and it's not necessarily about the size when I first turned on that's what she said when I first was going to say first turned on my Instagram I did it with the intention of building a business I didn't turn it on to connect to people to have fun with it because it sounded cool to do I at that I had already made up my mind that I was going to try and build this business off of us through a social media platform and I saw where Instagram was going so when I turned it on immediately I was already kind of watching what others would okay what is this guy doing that's like in my in my field what's he doing to have all these people following him and of course a lot of the times it was somebody who was already famous and then they got in then they turned on an Instagram and then of course they already had a large following so sometimes it was hard to see you know find people and then after I've been doing it for a while I could see somebody who had a small page and I got to watch them grow and and saw some things and then at the beginning I was mirroring a lot of what I saw and a lot of what I saw in the early on especially in men's fitness and some of that is the you know like the half naked photos those always get the most likes it gets the most attention keep posting those so I posted like crazy and I was I was getting at the early on when I first started my Instagram you know I was getting up over a thousand likes on photos and seemed to be growing pretty well but I what went back then Justin and I had created the nutrition survival guide and when we released it I didn't sell very much and I was like fuck you know get all these likes and all my thought you thought I'm getting all this yeah right and and so really if I look back now if I look back if you look all the way back on my IG you can see it's a lot different now than what it was and today it's more me it's who I am like now I get to just put myself out there as mine pump atom and it's this is my this is who I am this is what I talk about is what I'm thinking about is what I'm reading whatever versus when I first started I was I was trying to grow the business so much I was doing all these things to try and get attention to get followers and none of it was really converting to dollars now like a normal picture is like 700 likes or so but then there's 50 to 100 comments because there are people that are actually fans of the show engaging asking questions about fitness they're not following me because I am half naked and I'm attractive I miss the bear red pics that's the difficulty trying to build your Instagram when you know I'm getting the most likes with shirtless pictures yeah and when I'm talking about vegetables and things like that and I'm getting minimal likes and I'm like how do I build this exactly a plate of edge or something with this top some of the shirt well I mean I went all the way to the length so I saw this and I saw that the cleaner the page looks all these things so I went and actually I paid a photographer took when I got in shape I came out of my pocket paid for all those stuff so I could have photos that I could drip over over the course of time yeah leak them out and then write post to them so I tried to do all that stuff I did that I was successful in doing that but I was I was attracting the wrong people these aren't people that were going to that wanted to hear me talk about health and fitness and a better way to take a picture of where I was at as well yeah if I was now if I was selling men's underwear and stuff like that that probably would have been a good strategy yeah but it was specific and that's the same position I was in as well I built all the following up you know doing the competitions and stuff it was a given that most of the photos were like half naked photos you know where I was like when you shred it is like you get the pictures up there you get the likes you build my following was flying up and then and then I started going more okay now it wasn't like yourself where I went in there initially with the game plan it was just like I was doing competitions I was I got like you know I was actually sponsored by Sutlam and company back in the day as well as one of those in a free tub of protein yeah free tub of protein a month you know making it all worth my well all that hard work all those sweeteners and stuff nah but yeah that's it and it kind of slowed down well I took the educational route or route as you say over here I took the educational route it slowed down my following definitely slowed down and the likes weren't coming in as thick and fast but now I'm noticing I'm starting I'm seeing the trend of people I'm attracted now people who actually want to be educated more want to learn more about health and fitness which is good so I'm slowly being away from the wrong kind of follow there's a lot there's a lot yeah so my so my page is a good example of that and that by means of my expert social media this is something that's still relatively new to me I probably when it comes to the aesthetics of the page and all that stuff and understanding I'm probably the worst but one thing I do I think very well is deliver information and so I don't have a massive page but what I do have is followers who follow me who value my content which translates into it translates into business if I want it to in other words I have a good conversion rate and I notice you know I have friends and stuff who've got much larger pages who aren't able to convert their pages because people don't follow them for their value in terms of their information stuff it's just to look at them and so that's something to think about because if you're in fitness it's very tempting to do that because fitness is so cosmetic driven it's very tempting to be just all about your looks and you will get a lot of follow especially your female if you're female and you're very good looking and you're very fit and you're posting half naked pictures you'll get 10,000 followers what kind of followers do you think they'll be then? What are they going to buy from you if you're trying to build a picture? We actually made sure that we tested this theory too we paid $1,500 or $1,800 to a girl who had 4 million followers and had her do multiple posts about mind pump and weeding a shit from it I mean we didn't get hardly anything about a few new followers but you're not going to get any direct conversions necessarily because of the type of people. That's the thing like you think 4 million followers you're thinking wow we're going to do a couple posts like this is going to be massive and you know what our followers did is they looked at it like this is not a naked picture and they don't even care what she has to say now on the flip side if we had somebody who has a lot of content on their page somebody who's followers follow them because they really like a coach or a train or even someone like Elaine Norton post hey look at this new program that I'm following it's really good we're going to see huge bump because the followers are following them because they respect their information their content so really I heard this from I can't remember where I heard this and I'm not sure if this is accurate and I'm sure some will correct me if I'm wrong but I read somewhere that really all you need for an online business to be very successful and by the way not everybody's going to be multi-millionaire successful with online business but most people can do very well with an online business can really support themselves well and you need somewhere like maybe like 5,000 to 10,000 dedicated customers or followers that's it there was a podcast when me and Doug were talking about we were doing online marketing with masks before Mind Pump even started we had thrown around the idea of a podcast and one of the ones we looked to was I think entrepreneur on fire if I'm not mistaken and a popular podcast and the guy would openly talk about the amount of revenue he would generate he was generating something like a kill like a quarter million dollars a month and revenue but it wasn't very many customers it wasn't like he was getting shit tons of customers he had a really good product it was a high high price product but he delivered lots of value so he only needed like a couple thousand customers to be able to generate this tremendous amount of revenue because of the value he brought and that's something that people should consider if they're trying to build a business because I think a lot of times at least this was for me I was very confused I'd look at social media and think oh this will never work for me I can't get how am I going to get half a million followers or a million followers that's never going to happen you don't have to have that you can actually if you're a personal trainer and let's say you just want to build an online coaching business and you're delivering good content and you want to make a decent living you know 10,000 like good followers who are following it for your content is plenty to be able to do that off of you don't need a ton and almost anybody can develop a page with a couple years with the work of dedication to be able to build that so but I do think it's important that maybe we tell people or give people tips on how on how to do that because I swear to God Adam I must get at least a message a day on how on how to do that and that I think such a big part well I think consistent like you said just being consistent with what the information you are given and not veering away from what you're doing I think that we're in an era now of like transparency is king with all the abilities to Photoshop and go rent a Lamborghini and take pictures in front of it to do all these crazy things and to pretend like you're something that you're not I think somebody who's just who's willing to humble themselves squash their ego a bit and just be real like the struggles real this is what it's like doing what I'm doing and sharing sharing that journey I think for people it's just it's really rare it's rare to find that everybody is putting their best foot forward and I think being different than everybody else you got to be different or you got to be able to provide something that somebody else can't provide like you right so authentic and yeah be exactly and I think when you the more authentic that you can be I think that's the first key but then there's like some real like I think important tips to and I and you know Sal said something that I continue to razz him about so learning to speak to your platforms in a perfect world Sal's content would be on Facebook on our Facebook page and his Instagram would look more like our mind pump media IG page so you got to speak to your platform so Instagram is got it where it's at the reason why half naked pictures are get so many likes is people are scrolling through a feed it's fast it's instant I'm going through I see a hot picture I like it and move next picture I'm not I don't think they read it sometimes they don't they don't and you know I experiment with that that you've done that before yes I've actually tested that well I'll put something in there yeah inside the in the content that's fucking obvious to what I'm saying people still ask the question like you didn't read the four lines I wrote like so that's Instagram so knowing that and your if you're trying to grow it when you look out when I open I do this time right I open up and I look at my home page and I look at it from a bird's eye view is it aesthetically pleasing does it make me want to go to the see what that picture is and look and that means everything from the photos are clean and professional to interesting enough to where I'd want to tap on tap on it so you know those are simple things that you can already start thinking about right now for those that are trying to grow a social media business and then Facebook you do actually get people that will read blogs it's more of a blog setting it's a still appeals to the older generation that likes like ourselves that will read content that long so good long content belongs some of that Twitter fast smart witty good to the point punctual information so learning to speak to your platform is another thing that's important to and getting good at and actually treating it like that if you're trying to build it and decide that right is this your is this your page to show me your family and your kids and your hot girlfriend or is this your business page you know distinguish that you know am I you know trying to build a business around your half family half you know party fun life half business like you know if you're really treating it like a business it should kind of reflect whatever your business idea is to so I think that's and I think some general really general advice that we've really tried to capitalize on at least as become a part of our brand is deliver and give give give as much free stuff as you possibly can as much information as much access as you possibly can because whether you like it or not and this was really hammered home to us by one of the guests that we had our show Tom Bill you and that's basically anything that can be free will be free at some point and we're seeing that with big media like TV music the more free it can be the more free it's going to be and if someone can give where you're giving away for free they will and you're done and so you've got to learn how to work with that and you've got to be consistent with that as well it's not just so you can give a few free articles out for example or whatever you're going to give out information it needs to be consistent you have to do it for sometimes years on end consistently before you get any comebacks or any positive you're talking about that with the YouTube like you know if we're being completely transparent I mean I think we make a whole like three dollars a day on YouTube boom yeah right doesn't even doesn't even pay for the electricity three dollars a day can feed this so looking at the bigger picture and and every day we're adding 50 new to 60 new subscribers but that's it's slow it takes time it takes a lot of work right and and if you're if we're thinking about all the ways that I'm going to make off of it right now like we're not thinking correctly we're always trying to enhance the channel so you know we're not even thinking about money from YouTube it's all about like just how can we make it better how can we make give more and just keep doing that like we when we turned on mine pump we didn't monetize we didn't ask for a single dollar for a full year when we had the podcast because we knew like we just want we just want to give people so much that by the time we do offer something they see the value in it and they say I want to support you know support this podcast or whatever I want to get this product because I've been listening to these guys talk for well and when you analyze all of your all the big YouTube stars right the ones that have the gold button right million plus subscribers and are making a ton of money through YouTube most of them that's what they've they just for nine ten years they've been giving lots of great free information and they were first to market yeah first to market great information early on tons of it consistently over nine ten years that's why it's it means a good idea to really look at you know what's trending as far as like a new platform so like our guy was telling us a little bit about medium is being a good place to blog now because it's getting a lot of traction like a blog social media yeah and there's just there's just stuff like that like you want to keep your eyes peeled if like you're just starting out probably might not be the best idea to start with something that's like totally overly saturated right so I mean or maybe do that is sort of like in conjunction with but really keep your eyes peeled for the thing that like everybody's gravitating towards because it does it makes a difference when timing all you know lines up you know your first to market you have a good message people will find you a lot easier that way so just something to consider you know I'll tell you what's what's really what really trips me out by the way that seems to be my phrase now people have told me that what it means trips me out apparently I say you already stole my wheelhouse when we first started like fucking hey this guy now he's my wheel now he's taking my sayings too man we're still trying to find mine I was the one that first said that anyway you know what really trips me out now is that the celebrities of tomorrow are all social media oh yeah it's no longer like dude you're starting to see commercials of that like dude it's fucking crazy star so and so and then you're like what yeah my kids have my kids you couldn't make they don't know TV stars or movie stars too much but they definitely know social media stars you go to fitness and you guys go to fitness conventions right yeah like the Olympia yeah who get who have the who has the long lines physique guys there's red yes when you see someone like well yeah right right sure shout out to him and Joe down together together picture for the team dynamite yeah yeah that's it I mean conquer that was a I remember I remember that's a trip dude that was like over night four or five years ago I was at Olympia and I went out there by myself it was like we were barely starting like any social media stuff we hadn't even really kicked off mine pump and I was already kind of feeling out the industry and seeing where who's who's moving who's doing what and I was at Olympia and I remember like that was actually the first time I had seen I remember I don't know if you guys remember you remember me taking a picture of the banner of Joey Swoll yeah like bro you guys are gonna trip out and I was like Rich Piana which Piano right I'm like dude there's literally literally Ronnie Coleman and Jay color over here and nobody's talking to them they're like there's two people in line to talk to them and fucking Joey Swoll has a fucking line out the door I was like this is crazy and this guy is always done is done something on Instagram you know that's who's the five five percent guy five percent that's Rich Piano that's right yeah at the body power in England big in the expose yeah the cues man for like days and days non-stop cues like I'm talking they never ended how big how big how big is the fitness world out there in the UK and Australia is it big huge yeah yeah I think it's a global thing now but in westernised countries now I think it's just expanding fast but Australian comparison to Britain they were a lot more they're a lot more serious about their training out there especially where I live in eastern Australia in Australia yeah for sure they're more they're kind of a bit more ahead of the game a little bit more what they know when nutrition and just generally they're a bit more educated when it comes to health and fitness out there but at the same time because the fitness industry is saturated with information which isn't really correct a lot of them are brainwashed with the wrong concepts but in comparison to the UK that they're a step ahead it's the weather and stuff as well all these things play a part it's beautiful yeah I mean this beach is everywhere where there's a beach you have your top often it's vanity it comes down to vanity a lot of it you were saying not so much about health you were saying earlier off air that there that there's even guys are having challenges with their insecurities for sure yeah the northern over the bridge in northern Sydney is it's actually a bit of an epidemic now where you read about on the paper where there's guys like committing suicide and stuff younger guys you're shitting me from the age of 15 to about 18 I think it's I think it does come down to like body image body image and stuff like that apparently these are guys these are like yeah disorders yeah and guys which is actually more popular than women having those issues in the northern side of Sydney you know it's interesting about that so I actually speculated this with my girlfriend not that long ago where I was talking about how historically it's been women who have had to deal with the the brunt of this advertising in terms of you know you need to look a certain way and really because it started with fashion when it came with clothes and whatever and women need to look a certain way and bathing suits and all that stuff and diet pills and you're seeing a lot more of it now go towards men not not more than women but a lot more than it was historically social media so yeah and so now you're seeing more and more of these problems show up with with men which you didn't really deal with so much you know even when I was a kid so that's crazy that you're seeing it's like you said with people scrolling through though you know say people are scrolling through and liking pictures on Instagram a lot of people are just scrolling through and comparing themselves to other people which then just makes multiplies these issues than that you know I mean it's not going to make any better so how do you how do you guys deal with it because you're both pretty fit you know good looking guys or whatever how do you guys deal with that did you guys get into fitness because you felt like that about yourself or with me I got into fitness from playing sport really so it wasn't about body image at that time but I definitely escalated over the years gradually got worse myself as well with self-esteem you know so I think finding you guys I thought you were going to say we're shallow coaching then so I was coaching as I ended downhill but yeah but even in comparison you know I'm comparing myself to Martin sometimes and I'm like you know he's a WBFF pro and that's difficult for me as well you know lining up next to him on the beach because he's on another level to me I see that I just got to be accessible he's great genetics you know and I just got to accept that and work towards my own body goals and body image is much better but I found that difficult as well I'm blushing now mate stop it sorry now you guys have been travelling through the US doing some work and doing some vacation and stuff like that fit good looking guys you got an accent that's got to be a magnet I can't even imagine I have a ring on my finger the rings of power he's just been leaving me through the business you know that's a really good point though because I remember being a personal trainer and one of the things that I struggled with was I always got really frustrated that I thought man I have the knowledge I work out hard why the fuck can I not look like the magazine cover like why can I get to that point and you know really when I talk to clients and I help them when they give me their goals right I think part of your job is really helping them understand what that really looks like because there's so much bullshit out there with magazines and now social media that most of us including ourselves can get a very distorted view of what healthy fit and a realistic body type to maintain while you have other goals in your life because let me tell you being stage ready and building a fucking massive business at the same time is fucking difficult I tell them they don't know how difficult it is to get to that stage as well they think it's easy to get down to those body fat levels I'd love to do what you do and I want to do your training and diet plan I'm like you don't different goals in my life you feel drawn, you feel tired lack of energy, your libido is low same as me with the training I've always been active as well so I've always played sports like rugby and whatever else when I was younger so getting into training there and I think of something similar to what Sal said it's like obviously when you're younger, 15, 16 you want the women at that point you start chasing women or whatever and then obviously playing rugby as well I wanted to be a bit bigger for that and then I just loved it and kept it going, kept the momentum and I've never stopped really for like the 15 years or whatever but yeah that's it people who come into it now from scratch and you've got social media to compete with and they compare themselves to other people it's just trying to trying to lay it out to them that it doesn't happen overnight and you've got to eat right and all the other elements that come into it it's not just what you do in the gym it's the lifestyle and stuff like that Mark, when would you say you were in the worst shape of your life? Worst shape? Right now I think after this week Vacation? Ah, worst shape of my life was actually I had a little rebound after shows before I won't go into that We had a lot of days where we were binge eating badly I was going to say, yeah, yeah exactly going to the relationship with food, I mean with the competitions and stuff after the first few shows I then I rebounded afterwards which is quite a common thing but one time it was like a roundabout Christmas time so I had a show in like November and then I had about, it was at the end of November I had about three weeks last Christmas it was pretty much a month of just destructive really I was training maybe two or three times a week half-hearted sessions and I was just eating rubbish food for about a month solid and that was probably the worst shape I've got in but that, you know, I pulled it back fast enough it wasn't like I left it for, you know longer than a month or anything or done any permanent damage, touch woods or metabolism, it seemed all good Do you realize there's a growing epidemic right now with that with these people because of Instagram because of social, I shouldn't say because of it but one of the factors that plays into this I think is it's very popular now men's physique and women's bikini, these categories are exploding and everybody's wanting to get diet down for a show and it's becoming a very popular goal that people have like, hey, you know what I believe I can do that one day I want to, and they set this goal to do that with just that it's not something they want as to be part of their life forever, it's just I want to prove to myself I can get that kind of shape so they're hiring these coaches that are helping them get stage ready which are starving their bodies and training them like shit and then they go into the they get down to the leanest they've ever been because they've been starved for 8, 10 weeks for a show and they come out of it and they rebound like a motherfucker and they go on this huge climb go on like 28 pounds it happens all the time it's such a common thing, I mean most people do it but like you said people don't go into these shows they don't go into the shows into these competitions for the right reasons a lot of people do it for insecurities maybe deep down one of the reasons I then it might have been related to that I can't say directly it was but a lot of people do it for the wrong reasons without realizing it they're making things worse because they want to do it to make themselves feel better about themselves sometimes it doesn't always happen like that or does it, you know how it is when you do a show sometimes you don't get the place in you want you go in really confident you rebound afterwards then you've got all this emotional destruction or you call it the symptom or symptom eruption or whatever it is you've got to deal with that afterwards and it can be a bad outcome one of the most powerful phrases that I ever use as a personal trainer with clients is many times people would hire me and I'd ask them why I'd always ask why what are your goals, I want to lose 30 pounds I want to build muscle and I'd ask why usually would come down to well if I lose 30 pounds then I'll be happy usually it would break down to that and I would always tell them it was a very powerful effective phrase that I use for a few years where I tell them well you can't lose weight to get happy you have to get happy to lose weight so it's something, the goal that you think you're going to get to and that's going to change you and make you feel so amazing it never happens, you've got to find that before you actually start to go for that goal if you're looking for long term real success because the people who seek happiness out of just changing their body in these dramatic ways end up finding at the end of that number one their perception of the self so skewed that they never reach what they think that they need to look and they find that there's no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and at that point they also what ends up happening because they become so fixated on that they go about it the wrong way the motivation so they're so driven by the number coming off on the scale that they go about it all the wrong ways which ends up just making it worse for them so even if they go all the way through and actually achieve that goal they look back at the journey and they're like fuck that I'd rather be 20 pounds heavier eating the way I was eating not having to do punishing myself like that every single day in the gym I was happier I just saw this the other day on I think it was Facebook it was this young lady who competed in bikinis to get herself real tiny and just emaciated and there was a picture of her next to it now today and she's much heavier probably a little heavier than she should be I'd say probably about 15 pounds overweight over where she should be in terms of her health and then the title of it is you know I'm so happy now you know I never want to do what I did before and this is the way I'm always going to be type of deal and now she's attached herself to that I went so bad in one direction that then people start to think to themselves like well the only way now I'm going to be happy is if I don't even think about my health and that's what she said basically she eats whatever she wants she isn't active because that's how she's happy and the problem with that is she's remembering how miserable it was before and thinking this is better than that but there is a better place which is when you find that health when you find the true motivations when you really take care of yourself the side effect of that for a lot of people is they look fantastic but if you try to do it for the look and that's your sole motivation you're not going to find it you can have abs and be miserable for sure yeah I've been that but when I look back at my relationship I flew there real quick with you as you were saying then about people attaching I just want to go into quickly and didn't really have I probably didn't have the knowledge Adam had going into it I didn't really have that much of a good knowledge on nutrition and I basically built up this it's a bit of an eating disorder essentially where I would do a show rebound for a bit and then I'd probably just write the whole week off afterwards then where I just I wouldn't eat rubbish non-stop day in day out for a week but it would be pretty much a whole week of just dropping my guard and then what I would do then when I would be back on it as such I would be looking back I would be like depriving myself of loads of different nutrients because I'd be eating the same foods pretty much day in day out Monday to Friday right for example I would eat my salmon chicken breast and broccoli and that's pretty much it maybe one or two other things and then on the get to the weekend I'd be like okay I've eaten really healthy all week which in reality I had I'd eat the same foods all week I'd eat some good foods but missing out on a lot of nutrients and then I would kind of binge eat then I would have one bad thing and then do a whole weekend and that went on for about a solid year I joined you in most of those weekends yeah you helped me out we should have recorded one weekend maybe 20-30 thousand calories within about 24 hours mate wait you did what we should have recorded that I was actually going into a show myself at the time I've done two myself and it was the end of the British finals and I think when you I was expecting him to win and in place so then when he got off stage I was like fuck this you didn't place I'm not going to do the show through in the towel started spreading peanut butter on now chocolate rice cakes and it escalated from there so we'll take it through it's funny you say it's funny you say that you guys should have recorded it because I find it very fascinating right now to see those are some of the most viral most shared videos right now is these food challenges there is a ton of these 10,000 calorie 20,000 in fact some of these guys and girls have some of the largest followings right now and it's a very hot trend on YouTube and I find it very fascinating how we as in I mean everybody a big part of the population is drawn to doing this even myself could not help but watch it to see what does this mother fucker eat to get to 20,000 calories I'm interested and so it's fascinating and it makes me wonder what that's going to do isn't there a channel dedicated to that now you can watch people eat food apparently on YouTube only that's the new channel people worldwide now are so emotionally attached to food that that kind of thing is just like gold us a big YouTube is now anyway he's already watched a great deal of TV and I says Netflix right so it's like okay yeah food let's tune into that there's that one page who's that one guy remember I got into it with him because it got so angry when I first saw him he has this page where he he entered this is what he does he promotes intermittent fasting so he's like this is how I this is how I stay lean I intermittent fast and yeah and then he makes like these pizzas yeah with like cereal and you know cereal and you know donuts on it and top around it like the most the grossest fucking thing I've ever seen in my life and he'll smash this whole thing and it'll be like five six thousand calories and he's like but I got abs yeah the problem is he's lean right so people are going to see that yeah and get away with it what's going on inside his body the boys and they what what's happening with the get flow yeah right oh he must have the most the most terrible shit no it's it's crazy it's crazy to see where all this stuff is going but I you know bringing it all the way back to building your business I think if you if you're really trying to scale a business beyond you know being because you guys are full I mean you guys are you guys have already experienced that what it feels like to run eight to ten clients every single day and you do you get tapped out and if you still are looking for more because some people I know I have a buddy who's been doing that for years and years and years and he's very comfortable he makes good money he loves it he loves his Pete loves training clients no desire to scale out of that but those that are looking to scale beyond that they want more percent you you've got to be thinking how you can do that through different social media platforms because it will be the future it's it's here already and it's soon it'll be it'll be a necessity right so the sooner you start figuring that out if you had to me if you're an entrepreneur at all in any industry it's a must and you know you're starting to see this more more companies and it's a great time to be trying to figure it out because nobody has it really truly mastered I feel like I don't think there's there's some companies that are doing a lot of things well and but I think there is lots of opportunity to evolve it and like Sal said you know everything becoming free one day I foresee that that this model goes that direction when everything's all put into place because then you could potentially do that once you build the large enough network you can provide a lot of really cool shit for free so having that mentality of what can I what can I provide to others of value and trying to progress that as fast as you possibly can I'll tell you when the spirit transparent transparency that the direction that mine pump is going to be going in the in the future I don't know if it's necessarily a close future but is going to be placing our focus on training trainers and teaching fitness professionals how they can build a sustainable six figure businesses in fitness and that's going to be a part of it has to be a part of it that's such a big part of business but there's other pieces to what are some things you guys would would want to learn from you know or do you think that would should be covered in something like that just to pick your brains a little bit because you both still trainers yeah for sure yeah so that's that's the thing I'll be straight up so for me where where I kind of need to step my game up is the business side of it so I've got the work ethic you know I've built up a good following and only over say the last year or so I really been focusing on you know trying to build a bit of a you know like an online empire I have my website really good website put in place probably about two years ago I started doing the online coaching as I mentioned earlier but as you say unless you've got like unless you scale it properly where you've put the planning into it in terms of the dealing with the because you do in personal training on top of that don't forget so it's finding the it's managing your time essentially time management would be time management to be a good one and also with the business side of it I think just the social media side of it really because obviously you guys are experiencing a lot now along the roads when it comes to that side of it so just by what Adam said earlier in terms of you know the types of followers you attract in and what content you're putting out there you've given enough free content and linking stuff up to the social media is really important as we've been talking about excellent I'm glad we're on track then yeah beautiful well guys thanks thanks for coming down thanks absolutely great being on the man check this out go to go to YouTube check out mine pump TV we drop a new video every single day subscribe to our channel also you can check us out on Instagram at mine pump media and we have personal pages mine is mine pump Sal Adam is mine pump Adam Justin's mine pump Justin and Doug is mine pump Doug thank you for listening to mine pump if your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at 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