Yeah, so to apply research. I'm kind of excited about that website that I discovered probably from a Facebook ad or something like that Yeah, it could be on Facebook. We haven't even advertised it. Well, we've I mean not with ads anyway We've we've put up stuff and and we put up posts and and we're probably more so on Twitter than Than on Facebook. But yeah, that's cool that you Is that was that where you kind of caught on to on to us? I don't remember exactly where it was it could have been on Twitter You know just browsing through a feed and I saw it I'm I'm interested in research and I'm the president of the research club at my school So anything that says research. I'm like, oh, yeah, what is this? So how why did you start then? What's the goal with the website? Oh, that's a good question and depends if you want the short or the long answer But I'll try to give you a brief summary. Oh, it basically all came from I've been practicing as a chiropractor now for five years and It didn't take me very long after graduating that I kind of realized well I graduated with an expectation of okay I've done five years of university and I'm all set now and I'm gonna walk into a busy clinic and everything's gonna be like The table is gonna be set for me. And then I realized there are all these Things related to running a practice and be practicing as a chiropractor and as a clinician that University doesn't really prepare you for like we're well-trained in the basic sciences and in diagnostics and in patient management to a certain degree, but there's all this stuff around and You also have there's all these other factors that you need to Need to relate to in in society that university doesn't offer any training in at least not where I studied So I quickly realized okay, there's a lot of stuff I need to to get on to here and my way of going about it was really looking into research for answers And it didn't really take me that long until I realized But hey, there's a lot of this stuff that you know people charge you an arm and a leg to to go to We can course to learn this stuff But if you just look for it in the research, it's a lot of it is out there So you can you can acquire a lot of that Knowledge and those skills by just reading the research And that's really Where it started off from and then I met up with you again. Yeah, who I started apply research Together with and he was kind of in the same in the same spot. He had a degree in physiotherapy from before So we clicked pretty much instantly and and it all just went from there And then yeah, is you're gonna PT or is he also a Cairo? He's both he he graduated as a physiotherapist and then he went into chiropractic school and did five years So he's now A chiropractor as well and you're a chiropractor and now you're currently in medical school as well. Is that right? Yeah, that's correct. Wow. Okay. Can you give an example maybe of a a patient encounter that Made you really feel like oh my gosh, I don't have all the tools that I need from school There's something more that I need to learn Oh, that's a good question. Um Well, I think it's I can't really think of a perfect example at the moment, but I more so than Well, one aspect of it is patient management. How am I best gonna Gonna manage this patient could be say a dissipation That I examined and I thought hey this this person might be in need of some vestibular rehabilitation to aid with with their condition Along with manual therapy and whatever so And then I kind of have a at that point. I had an idea about vestibular rehabilitation and what it was, but I probably wasn't that Um, oh, what's the word I'm looking for you have to excuse my English been about five years since I last spent it Uh, right Um, probably wasn't that confident Um in that field of rehabilitation So I would look up that and and try to find ways of managing my patients So that's one that was one part of it. Just uh straight up. How am I gonna Treat this patient then there's also the all this other stuff other aspects of patient management that doesn't necessarily have to do with hands-on uh therapeutic interventions or rehabilitation, but Communication is such a big part uh of Well, basically if you're gonna if you're gonna achieve Anything with your patients you need to be able to interact with them Uh, both in terms of getting uh compliance and in terms of making them feel that they get what they Wanted a lot of it has to do with how you interact with them. It's not just what you do with them with your hands So those are probably two of the big ones and then also kind of how to go about speak into medical doctors professions in the area try to establish a working relationship with other healthcare practitioners Uh, I also find that reading research and knowing a little bit about their Feel the work and how they How they speak and communicate and what terminology they use helps a lot Yeah, I I can totally see how that uh How you feel a bit limited in in your knowledge. I mean, I'm coming to the end of school right now and in clinic and I have experiences where I examine I kind of diagnose and then I know What to how to treat initially But then what then how do I over time? You know really help this patient get back to full health and get back into activity and we've got the general knowledge of oh an acute thing is Two weeks, but the more chronic is six weeks, but really patients have so many questions Yeah, as well as how I interact with them verbally and whether it's showing confidence even if I'm not completely confident or giving them the um The approval in a way to go about their lives and not have the fear of getting re-injured Yeah, and and speaking with other professionals and being on the same page my girlfriend is an md and there's As we chat she's very supportive, but she also Leads me to understand. Oh my gosh. There's some things. I don't understand as much as I thought I did You know, I thought my training And the scope of practice that we're allowed in the state gives me enough to actually treat That broadly, but it there's so much. I still don't know Yeah, so I love that you guys are trying to fill that gap. I came across Your e-book your six steps to kick off your clinical career Yeah, and I read through this the other night and yeah, it was there were so many great pieces of wisdom How did you and you're gonna come up with this e-book? Um, that was probably one of the first things that I started working on one once we decided, okay We're gonna make this website applyresearch.com and So but what are we going to put on it? Uh, and I guess that e-book isn't really as you probably noticed it's not really It's pretty much based on experience So it's kind of a weird thing to introduce us the first thing you get when you When you register for apply research but It's basically just a compilation of a lot of the experiences that I made throughout those first couple years and and how I kind of went about Solving those issues and I guess we kind of asked ourselves, okay, if we could go back A couple years in time and knowing what we know now what we have done differently And then we put that into the that was kind of the Where we started from and then That e-book was the result Yeah, there are a lot of gems of wisdom in here. You talk about how to get $10,000 worth of knowledge for free Yeah, I'm always battling with myself about going to seminars because there's so many great things to learn, but they're incredibly expensive Yeah, so what's your recommendation for getting more knowledge without spending all the money? Well, since you're asking I'd say for everyone to have a look at our webpage Uh for starters, but I would say uh read research. That would be my number one go to Uh advice and basically what people don't realize When we're students, we we don't realize how valuable all that information that we have access to is And you only realize once you graduate and your university cuts you off So that you can't access it anymore and you get on pub med and you see click here for the And then it says that'll cost you $40 40 bucks um So, yeah, that would be my number one thing just brush up on your methodology and how to Read and and analyze research and start reading and it's not something that comes to you Immediately you need to work on it and then it's it's a skill like everything else But you'll learn so much from it. I have anyway that recommendation made me feel better because I have a huge collection of research articles But I rarely have the time to read them And I thought what am I doing wasting my time downloading all of this But then I read that book. I was like, oh, this is excellent When I don't have access I've got 400 articles that I have to read so that'll be great um And you mentioned a couple ideas of how to network and how to get your name out there um Let's see in in a couple of mistakes to avoid while you're in school and also while you are building up your practice So if you had some Maybe one or two pieces of advice for students What would be the other? key pieces advice to give them while they're finishing up school I would say If you can combine having an open mind About the stuff you come across but at the same time maintain a critical Uh inquiring mind At the same time, then I think you're you're starting off in the in the right direction from the get-go I would say go out and expose yourself To all the stuff you can see as many do technique courses and seminars as far as you can afford them, but Just make sure that you're Question everything you learn question everything anyone says no matter how Qualified they are question everything I say um and question Your own thinking and reasoning because we're all biased In in our assumptions and in our conclusions and experiences uh, and if you can if you can kind of get that concept under your skin and And apply that as you go along then you'll I think you'll quickly learn What knowledge and information to keep and apply and what to to discard because there's a lot of good stuff out there Uh, and but unfortunately there's also a lot of stuff that probably isn't as good as it should be Now you're practicing in norway, but you graduated from rmit in sydney australia Macquarie, I'm sorry. Macquarie in sydney. Um, did macquarie offer a wide variety of Technique seminars and added Skills that you could acquire while you're in school I'd say so. I would say we had a fair a fair variety of Our practical skills or techniques in university. We had diversified techniques gone stead techniques and some drop piece techniques and and also a fair bit of rehabilitation um In university setting and then there was also A lot of different technique courses that would be run outside of university and As well. So there was a good opportunity to be exposed to a lot of a lot of stuff now coming from the um Maybe I'd say the evidence based mindset the research mindset that you have But also trying to be open to these technique systems, which many of them don't have a lot of You know randomized controlled trials and literature to back them up How do you approach that to be critical but also to be mindful and take from it what you can use? You mean in terms of looking at a technique and and then deciding, okay, am I going to use this or not?  Yeah, and so I struggle to go into those types of meetings or workshops And entrap that bias from the beginning And just be open-minded to see what they have to say and learn from it and sometimes I'm surprised. Yeah That's absolutely A good it's a difficult It's a difficult thing to do. I think so it is I say be open and be critical at the same time, but it's not necessarily that easy, but I think there's kind of there are two things you need you kind of need to distinguish between When looking at technique courses in my experience and and one thing is Okay, what are they doing? And then the other thing is okay Why are they doing it and I think with a lot of As my experience and my personal opinion, but I think a lot of techniques can Help a lot of patients, but maybe not always For the reason that the technique system claims Uh, and I don't think we at this point knows how all our technique works But I think there's a good bunch of literature that's starting to kind of Explain to us that Manual interventions. Yes, they do work But maybe not in the in the way that we thought or have been thinking for the last hundred 50 20 10 years So don't discard everything just because there aren't necessarily randomized controlled trials for it, but just have Be a bit cautious about the explanation that you give That would that's kind of how I Approach that question That's great. So coming back to apply research When when a chiropractor or a student signs up on your website What do they receive? What types of materials and information can they get? For now, uh, what you get when you register which is free by the way So it's not a registration as such you just put in your email And then you're on an email list and we email you this this stuff So the first thing you get instantly is the e-book that you mentioned Where we kind of put in All the All the mistakes that we did and that we would have done differently if we could go back and change it Um, and then there's also a six step e-course, which is basically a bunch of articles that Kind of tries and outline How you can go about Building a practice and a career I guess Using The best knowledge from research to your advantage So basically how to and a lot of it has to do with I guess you can divide it into treating your patients getting your diagnosed diagnosis, right Interacting with the patient as well as possibly and also interacting with the with the medical healthcare system that you need to operate within and how to use research to To do that as efficiently as possible. I guess that's the gist of it I'm looking at the the e-course right now and the first one Answers the question. Is there a future for me in musculoskeletal care, which I think We all are wondering, you know, where what is the future of chiropractic? um Are we going to become more mainstream with the medical profession or are we going to establish ourselves as Subluxation specialists that detect incorrect subluxation um And then the let's see. I think it's the third one here talks about the hidden benefits of an evidence-based Practice seven ways that evidence-based practice will benefit you So interesting stuff and these are pretty short reads They're not I mean it's not going to take you an hour to get through it So I highly recommend people go to apply research And and sign up for it and the e-book again for students is wonderful Glad to hear you enjoyed it And you graduated five years ago.  That's a good question, Nathan. Um, I'll give you the short answer. Um, one part of it was basically that I Uh, we spoke briefly or you mentioned that you have an interest in in exercise science And and I kind of have that have that bit too. I come from sports and so I guess there's just I have a genuine interest in the human body and physiology and There's stuff that I'm keen to learn that's kind of outside of the scope of What I would call chiropractic Uh, so that that's probably the biggest reason why why I went back to To university it certainly wasn't for the money Um, because uh, it takes a lot of work being a full-time student and and running a practice Um, so that's that's probably the biggest reason I'd say Um, just an insatiable desire to learn more Yeah, and then there's also the other factor in it is that I don't really like to I wish it was I wish it wasn't like that But I also think there's at the moment. It's easier. You have more options as a medical doctor unfortunately in terms of At least back here in terms of how you want to work Uh, or what you want to do and it's Say for instance, if you don't even want to work in clinic, but uh work in other areas of healthcare or Um in society it's easier to find those jobs with an md degree Than with a chiropractic degree. Although I think I think uh that we're going in the right direction In In that sense speaking for chiropractic as well What is the scope of practice like in norway? Well back here we're pretty much we're Very well integrated in the public health care system. I'd say So we're basically car factors are recognized as primary care practitioner for musculoskeletal disorders So it's pretty much Because because we have these benefits As such there's also the responsibility that we're supposed to I guess kind of limit our practice to musculoskeletal Stuff And then we get the we have the right to To write sick leave for patients. We can refer patients directly to to imaging And also refer directly to medical specialists if we have the need and it's also Reimbursed by the not fully but there's some reimbursement from the public healthcare system I'm looking on my on exploring chiropractic dot com I have a map where i've mapped out all of the chiropractic schools throughout the world And I notice there isn't currently a school in norway. No, that's correct That's something that's been the the kind of the the big thing that the norwegian chiropractic association has been working with for the last 15 years and They're closer than ever to achieving it and we actually at the moment The university of aslo, which also has the The medical education in aslo Which i'm attending They have pretty much said that we are interested in running a chiropractic Program, so it's basically all up to the politicians now to To cuff up the funding So if that goes through then we'll have a then we'll have a chiropractic program integrated within the medical faculty But at the moment no no school yet that'll be excellent and i'm imagining like many of the other european countries that That's that program would be pretty closely integrated with the medical where you would do the first few years together with medical students And then specialize for the last few years in chiropractic Absolutely, I don't know if you've looked into danmark and uh odense yet But they're if it's gonna happen. They're gonna build it on that model. So yeah for I think Might not be completely the same, but at least over there. It's three years in Of medical basic science and then separated after the third year Yeah, I love that model and you get to learn all those basic sciences together with The people that will be your peers that you'll be referring patients back and forth I think it's wonderful Well martin i've just got a few more questions, uh kind about you to wrap things up Um, I'd like to know, uh, what has been the best time for you in practice? I Would have to say those patients that come in and Really struggle like they have had pains and aches for or problems doesn't even have to be pain, but you know those I guess those are the ones that really really Make you go home and feel like you made a difference when they've had a problem for a long time and They come to you and and you're able to To actually address that problem, especially if they've seen a lot of practitioners from Whatever profession before and then When you can actually make that difference that makes A really impact on their lives That's for me the the big thing that Makes everything worth it sometimes those patients Uh Surprised me and shocked me in that if they get to if they get better quickly Yeah, it almost makes me feel like oh my gosh, what did I do? Yeah, yeah, absolutely because sometimes you it's like that you're surprised How little it took you just had to do the right things Yeah, and then all the times there's There's definitely patients where you really need to work and where you're Banging your head into a wall and but then all of a sudden you have a breakthrough after a while and and yeah Do you have a favorite book or resource that you like to go to? Um to learn more to stay on top of the chiropractic profession Oh, that's a good one to be honest. I haven't been reading books since I left uni so pretty Pretty much been just been diving into research papers Do you have a favorite journal or a favorite database that you go to to pull up? There's a few that I that I keep track of frequently spine spine journal is one of them Chiropractic and manual therapies. It's a good open access chiropractic oriented journal Manual therapy. It's really a physiotherapy journal, but it has some really good stuff on And it's very relevant for what we do as well European spine journal that's it's a surgical one really but there's also Every once in a while there's some good stuff that we should be reading in there as well Those are some good ones to to start off with Probably forgotten heaps, but I'd say those for starters Do you have some type of tool that helps you organize all your papers?  No, I have a tool. Let's look it up. It's called papers. Oh, I use papers as well Yeah, yeah, then you know what it's like. It's pretty much It's pretty much Itunes for papers, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, and they've got um The mac ios they've got a windows version. I think they may even have just come out with linux for any Supergeeks that use that. Yeah Very similar to mendalay, which is another good one. Yeah, but yeah papers is mine of choice as well Yeah, that's what I've got. Yeah, I Basically signed up for that as a student and I'm just stuck with it. Yeah wonderful, um What recommendation Would you give to students? For choosing the school that they go to Well, I would say I would I would definitely recommend doing what what you told me you've been doing to to ask around Speak to definitely speak to students in the different schools also speak to speak to Current chiropractors or people that have graduated from a different school But just keep in mind they can quite be they can quite often be quite biased. That's my experience anyway they always recommend their own schools and But yeah, ask around gather as much information as possible and then and then kind of make up your mind about Why am I doing this and And then I think you'll be able to pick a good school for you from there If you were to do it all over again, uh, which school do you think you would choose right now? Oh Well, if I could just go anywhere and not think about distances and And in the world I thought I had a really good education in in Australia to be honest Uh, it was a good blend of uh, clinical skills and and solid Basic sciences and and also research methodology. So I thought that was a really good mix um so that Well, that school doesn't that program doesn't exist anymore, but To be honest, I kind of hesitate to answer that question But just because I don't really know that much about the the programs over in in the states, for instance Um, or in canada. I'm sure there's some great ones in canada Uh, I'm sure the recent estates as well but Um, how's to go in europe? I would have probably gone to danmark just because But I might be biased because i'm doing medicine now, right? Do you think you might have uh, If you started all over would you have done medicine first without going to chiropractic route? I've thought about that, uh, and You know what the answer is no I when I When I first started doing chiropractic doing medicine didn't even cross my mind uh, and I also think that knowing what I've known now and uh, having the experience that I've had from Chiropractic school and from practicing as a chiropractor for five years Uh, if there's one thing I'm certain of it's that that is going to make me that much of a better clinician A medical doctor eventually than if I just gone straight into medical school So I I wouldn't have been without that experience ever Do you find that there's a big difference between your experience in chiropractic and now medical school with The the challenge the difficulty level of the courses the amount of information you have to learn No, not really. That's a pretty quick. No, uh, I'd say the amount of work is about the same I'm a little bit biased now because I have I have all this stuff from chiropractic Which I'm not pretty much doing again in medicine or a lot of it overlaps So I guess that kind of makes probably makes the program now easier for me than it would have been initially But I would say the amount of work is about the same the basic sciences are the same So I would say chiropractic students doesn't have anything to to be ashamed of compared to medical student in terms of workload Well, what is your vision your hope for chiropractic in the next 10 years? Oh, I would like to see Chiropractic uh being a little bit Less certain about the stuff that is so uncertain and I think that would Make it a lot easier to For me, it's kind of a big thing to to get accepted by not just the medical profession But but society and the healthcare system that you're working within we I Cannot see the the profession surviving and flourishing without Somehow fitting into the society That we're in and to do that I thought also I think you need to be a part of the other Of the healthcare system And to do that. I think we need to be able to communicate what we're doing and why we're doing it To other professions as well and to and to governments and politicians and So if anything, I would like to see chiropractic be able to Communicate better with the rest of society, I'd say wonderful Martin, thanks for sharing about Apply research and your experience as a chiropractor in Norway. Where can students learn more and follow you online? If you want to follow us and read more about the stuff that we've been talking about today, Nathan You can go to applyresearch.com And just have a look around there and you'll just take it from there You guys have a presence on facebook and twitter as well. Absolutely We're on twitter and we're on facebook if you just search for apply research, you'll we should pop up You


So here we are, Senate government operations on Thursday, September 10th. And let's start going through what is now. It doesn't have a number yet, but hopefully by the end of today, it will. So, and then we'll have to find out the procedure for, because I don't know, does it have to go to editing. Tucker is shaking his head. So is Betsy and we're edited has already gone through the editing process. Okay, and so because this is a committee bill. It just goes immediately to the floor. Okay, great. Okay, thank you. All right, so do you want to start going through it let's start at the beginning. Okay, so section one is again your open meeting law section of the bill. Would you like me to highlight the changes that were made based on yesterday's testimony and discussion. I think that would be, yeah. The first change that I made is somewhat technical, but it was based on yesterday's discussion and some of the concern around how these provisions are going to be interpreted when they are put out there in the world by those who will be in this area, particularly the municipalities. So the first change is on page two online one, the notwithstanding clause that starts subsection be now reads notwithstanding subdivisions 312 a to D and C to have this title. That is in place of the notwithstanding clause that just listed one VSA 312 generally that will direct the reader's attention to those two specific subdivisions that we are dealing with here. So that there's no confusion around that. Anybody have any questions about that, or concerns. Thanks. The next next change is in subdivision three of that subsection be starts online eight of page two. You added the terms publicly accessible prior to designated electronic locations. So the subdivision now requires that an affected public body, if they determine it's necessary. That they post any meeting no agenda or notice of a special meeting in two publicly accessible designated electronic locations in lieu of the two designated public places within the municipality. That was based on the list serve discussion that you all had yesterday. Any questions about that one or comments. Okay. So this is section C, and these are some of the more substantive changes based on yesterday's discussion in subdivision C one. You added the requirement that the affected public body use technology that permits the attendance and participation of the public through electronic or other means. Further on and if you're looking at draft 2.2 this is highlighted. And this was the results of the discussion you asked for between the press VLCT and myself. Subdivision C three now reads that the affected public body shell post information that enables the public to directly access and participate in meetings electronically and shall include this information and the published agenda for each meeting. So, any questions or comments on those two changes. Mike. I'm just wondering if, again, when it just says the information is published on the agenda that towns can read that to mean call the town office, you know, which is what the problem is now rather than saying, adding the word shall include this information. And then add the words, including access codes in the published agenda for each meeting because as of now, they claim that they do have that information on there that you've got to call and get pre approval to be in a public meeting. I think line 19 says, enables the public to directly access and participate. And plus, may I say, Madam chair that, you know, 15 years from now or whatever, you know, whenever they're it. Who knows what, what that information will be in as a technology and electronic systems evolve. So I think that you have directly said the public has to be able to directly access the meeting and participate in it through the information on the agenda. Yes, I think that that word directly access. I agree. And eventually we're just going to have electrodes to plant it in our brains we're not going to have to do any of this stuff we're just going to show up and play things and it's all going to happen without us doing anything about it. Exactly. You'll just think it.  I think you've already been wired center point. I don't know if they form you. We should pass on so they have to tell us when we're wired. That's the I don't think they have to Brian. Thank you madam chair to Mike's point I wonder if when it would just comment on whether she feels a municipality could read that in any other way than to provide the information that would allow the public to get into the room. I mean, when Zach of the LCT. It says, I mean, I think my interpretation is how the rest of the committee is interpreting it so that would be our advice but to catch every single individuals interpretation of it you know we can only capture so much in our advice for municipal boards that contact us directly. There's others that contact the Secretary of State's office obviously we don't have school boards as members are talking to the school board association so they might be getting different advice but you know to us if it reads as publicly accessible where they have to be able to get direct access on that even narrows the scope down more than the previous language which didn't have that level of specificity and I think you know when you have too much detail. If this is going to be, you know, triggered, you know, six months down the line or two years down the line or four years down the line to add things like passwords or access codes or anything like that we don't know what this will look like so it's, you don't want to make it so narrow that it's, then you're all actually preventing, you know, other versions of access right so I think in and of itself the fact that the legislature would want to change the language from what it was, or what it is currently is indicating that the legislature the legislative intent then becomes we are recognizing that we want the public to access it in this direct way and there's no, you know, room wiggle room for interpretation there. Okay, thank you. So is everybody okay with that. Yep. Okay. Tucker. Final change here. Sorry, I did not realize I was muted. I enjoyed being muted during the discussion of the implantation of notes. So the last change was that you removed the subsection that allowed in the event of a staffing shortage for the 10 calendar day extension. And that is gone from this version. And that is the summary of changes that you made within this section. So it just the minutes are it just reverts back to the underlying law which says five days, which says five days. Yes. Alison, Alison, I know, I know I was wildly outvoted on this but the we are talking, I mean the only reason I would put one more plug in for the 10 days or longer than five days is we are talking about an emergency and all hazards emergency.  You know, yes, people could whip out the minutes but they can't get them anywhere necessarily in. I just, I think we have the law to go back to the five days as an underlying law, but what we're addressing here is emergency measures. And it just strikes me that in an emergency you may want a few more days than the five days. I was thinking about it in the shower this morning I thought, really, I mean we're talking about this. This is very specific for something that isn't normal, where we may not all the things we need, which may be even more to the point about why it needs to be done. Well quickly because you are how you're having to act quickly. And so decisions are being made and if they're if nobody knows about those decisions for 10 days that that could be problematic too and I think that if you had no electricity. Yeah, then you wouldn't have an active website and you would just post it at the town hall. I mean, right, right. I hear. I just was. Thank you. We're trying to think around the corners and yes. It is everybody okay with taking that out and reverting back to the five days other than Allison. Brian. Yes. Yeah, they're all fine. I'm sure. And is Chris with us. Oh, there he is. You aren't on my screen. Okay, there you are. Well, I can't do anything about your screen. I know. Okay. Are you okay with that? Me? Yeah, I had a thumb. I did a thumbs up. Sorry. Okay, sorry about that. And Gwen and Mike and Ross. And who else is here? Lisa. Oh, Lisa is with us. Good. So we're okay with that. Brian, Brian has his hand up. I'm going to be about my screen. Okay, Brian. Thank you, Allison. Thank you. Sure. So I'm just wondering since we are. In essence, the leading something that. People are already kind of familiar with now. Would the lead send out anything letting people know that it has gone back to five days. Or is that necessary? And in other words, Are people going to realize that it's not 10. The next time it happens. Oh, good point. And D. Once the legislature passes this and once it goes into effect. And once there is a, an effective date that's put into the bill.  Some time to give our members some forewarning, but we have. And because the open meeting law and public records act, things are probably, probably the most requested information tidbit that comes from our members. It's usually something we would do an all email blast to all of our members and not just like select boards and managers, but to like, you know, zoning boards and whatnot. And so we will update our COVID-19 on. FAQs for the open meeting law stuff. So there might be some, you know, the, the effective date, right? There might be some confusion because whenever laws change, it's people are used to one way. And then it takes a little while for people to get on, on the same page. So there might be a bit of a lag time, but I'm having a little bit of a lag time to get legislative bodies aware of what's going on is helpful, but, you know, we'll do our part, at least letting our members know I can't speak to any other municipal or public bodies that are not municipalities that are, you know, cities and towns and villages. So, but also Brian, this effective passage is January 21. So it may take us through all the emergency of this year. I mean, it may take us through all the executive orders. And the declared emergency current, current declared emergency. So it may just naturally, I mean, because our current law is in place until January of 21. Yeah. I just, some people would probably. Some people in the event that there's a, there's a subsequent declaration. They may just assume that it all those. Yeah. I remember all those new laws when we did it before. They must be the same ones. That's all. Yeah. Oh, Tucker. I am glad that there is a more astute mind than mine here to back me up. But I think that act 92, because it is more specific and specifically calls out the COVID 19 outbreak. It has an expression of legislative intent that states very clearly at the beginning that during the continued spread of COVID 19, that during the state's response in the state of emergency, specific to that outbreak, the temporary open meeting law provisions that you put out there should be in place to ensure public access to meetings while protecting the health and safety of the public. That the current provisions allowing for the 10 business days would continue as a more specific authority that you have granted. And that in the case of a future state of emergency that would trigger the provisions you're working on now, the general work that you are putting into statute here would then be triggered for future events, but it wouldn't necessarily supersede the very specific work you did in response to COVID. So, you know, the 10 day allowance will continue through the current state of emergency. When it ends, it's over. And then the general laws become available to public bodies moving forward. Okay. I appreciate the answer. Thank you. All right. So are we okay with open meeting? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Issues. Brian. Yes. Yes. Yes. Mike Ross. Lisa. I don't hear anything. Yes. Sorry. Okay. I was muted there. It's very difficult to mute you, Mike. I'm glad we've found a way. Others have tried. I know. Lisa. Yes. I'm good with it. Okay. Thank you. Ross. Yes. Okay. Great. Thank you for your work. Appreciate it. Thank you. Tucker. That was great. Good work. Now we can sew. S E W or S O W. Well, it will sew different types of seeds. And yes, we're sewing it up. Okay. Thank you. Well, Can we move on to the municipal quasi judicial proceedings? Section two. Yup. Yes, Madam chair. The only update that I have for you in this section is that. The more astute mind than mine discovered that there were some references within this section when they were supposed to not be capitalized. So there are some technical corrections throughout. Both to existing statute and to some of the language that you've seen before to make sure that we are consistently lower casing our boards throughout 32 VSA section 40404. Otherwise I have no updates in a section for you. Good job. Yeah. Who caught that? I'll give you a wild guess. Or Nadine. One of them. Does anybody have any? We're all okay with that section. This is what you need. Legislative trivial pursuit.  I don't know. Which is it board capital B or a little B? And why? Okay. Can we move on to section. For what? I think. Section three. Wait a minute. Section three. Section three is the next level of those BCA grand list. Okay. Okay. Any issues with that? All right. So now. Section four. Which is the water. Disconnect. Yeah.  So there is one update here that I will bring to your attention in the draft that you saw yesterday in subdivision. A two, which is on page eight line one of this draft. This subdivision accidentally. The city council. Has stated that. The all hazard does not require the municipality to disconnect services. And that was too specific because this section deals with multiple entities that provide the services. So we changed municipality to the water or sewer service provider. and the PUC-regulated entities as well. Thank you for that because I was wondering about inter non-transient, non-public, sorry, private, privately owned public non-transient water supply systems, et cetera. So there's a few odd systems. And of course Woodstock has one of those, and I should have caught that. But I'm just curious, it is regulated, though the private systems are still regulated by the PUC. I thought some were regulated by ANR. Some are permitted through the Title X ANR process. They're called out as well in subsection A. Go ahead. Something to note related to this, but not necessarily within the purview of the work that you're doing. When you first started discussing this section, you discussed the arrearages payments that came out of the CRF funds to some of these utility providers. And it was brought to my attention yesterday that those arrearages payments are actually only available to one type of entity, or at least the individual who emailed me said that it was only available to one type of entity. And that would be the PUC regulated entities. I don't know if there was some confusion around that, but ultimately it didn't impact the work that you did because the provision that you put in here requires the rate payer to make right any amounts due after the end of the moratorium. Gwen, are you okay with this? Yeah, the same question had come up from our towns about whether there could be interest in fees and collected and how long it was, but I think it's covered in this wording here. So I don't think we have any issues right now. Anybody else? Okay. Thank you. Municipal deadlines. Section five. I had no updates for you in section five. Okay. Anybody have any issues or concerns or questions about section five? Okay. About section six, highway funds repeal. I think we were okay with that yesterday. Anybody change their mind? I just have one question and I just want to be 100% sure this is a permanent change, right? This is. No. No. Oh, it is a permanent. Oh, it is. It's repealing. Okay. That's okay. I just wanted to make sure I got it correct. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yes, because it's repealing that section. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. So good work Tucker. Thank you. So do we want to move on to local elections? Hello. Hey, that's the end or ask legislative council. No changes to the local elections provisions. This section seven allows a legislative body to move the time and date of an upcoming annual or special meeting. During a state of emergency, if the legislative body determines that the circumstances of that emergency may harm the public and they'd have to schedule a new meeting as soon as practicable and warn it accordingly. And I did hear, excuse me, from Senator Baruth about these sections as they related to school boards, because they had gotten a, they had a draft of a bill or they had a bill from the house education committee that also addressed this in some way. But they thought ours was more accurate and detailed. And so they're going to take the section that section out of the education bill and they approved this. Good. That's the end knows how to do elections. That section seven was about moving the time. Wait, wait, I think Mike had a question. Oh, sorry. Do you have a question, Mike? Yes, just, just to be clear, we, we had a situation in Grand Isle. So it says that must when it's postponed and then it must be whatever Julie warned or whatever it says. Does that mean that it needs another 30 to 40 days and go through that whole process time frame so they can't just postpone it like 10 days or something like that they've got to go through the whole public notice posting in three spots taking 30 to 40 days or whatever. That's how I would read that. That's how I was reading it, but I was just wondering if, because I think some self broken as a charter that allows them to come back quicker or something like that, but other towns. I think had to wait on revoked of a school budget or something. Yeah, when. Okay, just would this not withstand charter more specific charters or not. I would think not if I guess it would depend on the language of the charter but if the charter addresses a way to move the time and date of a meeting then that I would read that charter vision as controls the special law. Okay. Okay. We're fine with the language as is. Okay, great. Thank you. Okay. So, I think we can move to the next slide. What's that? Oh, no, just go. Section eight is about the ability of the legislative body to apply the Australian ballot system to an upcoming annual or special meeting during a state of emergency. It's an upcoming meeting that they could do this, not less than 60 days in advance of that meeting to move to Australian ballot which should give them enough time to prepare as necessary the Australian ballot itself and get the questions on it on the ballot. Sub B says that a legislative body that does so is not subject to the statutory deadlines or provisions related in a school district articles of agreement related to the meeting that conflict with the need to apply Australian ballot to the meeting to the extent necessary to enable the municipality to apply Australian ballot to that meeting. So that seems to me that that's more of just in case language belts and suspenders it would seem that the 60 days is enough time to give them to meet all the current law deadlines. But as I understood I got feedback from the Secretary of State's office they seem fine with this language as is so that that be might just be in there as just in case there any other deadlines that might get in the way of moving to Australian ballot. Anybody have any questions or concerns about this section. Okay. So then the bill moves into professional regulation and I've just been discussing this with Jen Carby who handles board of medical practice issues as well as the executive director of the board of medical practice and director of OPR. So after discussing with them just further. There were a few tweaks to this, these sections, a couple of them. Three of them are in the nature of a technical correction and then the board of medical practice actually requested that one of the sections be struck, but there was no change in this first one section nine, which provides that during a state of emergency, the OPR can extend up to 90 days at a time the expiration dates of OPR licenses and waive any fees that would have applied if the circumstances of the state of emergency create a barrier to obtaining renewal. And to confirm the prior draft contains similar language for licenses under the office of governor but that is out of the bill it's not in the bill. So far as the three technical corrections, I just noticed that actually I think it was Jen that noticed. In regard to these out of state health care professionals this is first the bill starts with OPR statutes because those are entitled three and then it moves on to board of medical practice statutes. This section and another section referred to in one place one of these sections referred to the regulatory jurisdiction of OPR, and you can see that language on page 12 line 16. In the next section it referred to both quote the phrase regulatory and disciplinary jurisdiction of OPR will disciplinary authority is part of regulatory authority so just to make a both consistent. Both OPR and Board of Medical Practice agreed it should just be regulatory jurisdiction because disciplinary is included within regulatory jurisdiction so that was a technical correction that we caught. In the end so just to remind this section 10 and you'll see it again for Board of Medical Practice but this section 10 is for OPR, and it provides that during a state of emergency in consultation with the Commissioner of Health. The Director of OPR can authorize a health care professional who practices in one of OPR's profession, and who holds a valid license of practice in another US jurisdiction to be deemed to be licensed to practice here for a patient located in Vermont, using either telehealth or as part of a facility. So long as the health care professional is in good standing in that other US state, not subject to any professional disciplinary proceedings there and it's not barred from practicing here in Vermont for reasons of fraud or abuse patient care or patient safety. And then someone who is deemed under this section to provide health care services has to submit to OPR their contact information and where they're going to be practicing to provide health care services to Vermonters. And the person who does that the professional who is providing those health care services is deemed to consent to the regulatory jurisdiction of OPR. And this authority remains in effect until the state of emergency is terminated. And so long as they remain in good license and good standing. So that provision was one of those in Act 91. Any questions or concerns about that section. Okay, seeing none. All right, on page 13 in section 11 we're still an OPR you can tell by the three VSA start that title three is where OPR's main provisions are codified. So that's about inactive health care professionals coming back to practice in a health care field. If you recall, one of the requests from one of your prior drafts was to not use retired and said use inactive. And so that change was already made in one of them, your most recent drafts you reviewed. What you're doing is saying again during a state of emergency in consultation with the commissioner of health, the director of OPR can authorize a former health care professional who practiced in one of OPR's health care professions and who left active practice between OPR, not more than three years earlier with their license and good standing, they can provide health care services to a patient located in Vermont using telehealth, or as a part of staff, after they submit their contact information including where they'll be practicing to OPR. Returning health care professional would be authorized to provide those health care services for not more than 30 days pending their application for a temporary license or until the director of OPR determines whether to issue a temporary license, whichever comes first. And then finally in subsea, the director can issue temporary licenses to these returning health care professionals at no charge and can impose limits on their scope of practice as the director genes appropriate. And anybody who does this at the top of page 14 is subject to the regulatory jurisdiction of the office. This is another place where there was, aside from that regulatory jurisdiction phrase. We just noticed that this section used in one line a temporary license and in another line used emergency license. We're talking about the same thing. So they agreed to just use the term temporary license. So that was the change there. Okay, technical correction. Okay, great. Anybody with questions concerns comments on this section. And again that was another act 91 provision. And it is Lisa still with no. I don't see her here anymore. Because I can. Okay, never mind. Okay, go ahead. Sorry. No, I'm on page 14 and section 12 there was no change to this section after we reviewed it again. But the big picture what's going on here again taken from act 91. This is emergency authority for the director of OPR to act on behalf of OPR boards. So the language is during a state of emergency. If the director finds that a board attached to OPR cannot reasonably safely and expeditiously convene a quorum to transact business. And if it's authorized by the Secretary of State this is one of the places where Secretary of State's office. They suggested there'd be that hook there, the Secretary of State authorizes this. The director can exercise the full powers and authorities of the OPR board, including disciplinary authority, so that they can keep, keep going in case it's not safe for one of their boards to meet. And as a reminder OPR regulates about 50 professions and I think 18 of them still have boards. Signature of the director has the same force and effect as a voted act of the board. And if the director takes such an action. It has to be published conspicuously on the website of the board on whose behalf the director took action. There's no change in there from prior drafts. Sorry madam chair. No, that's okay. Any questions concerns comments on this section. Okay. All right. So I think this is the final OPR provision in section 13. This is the ability of the director in a state of emergency to issue emergency regulatory orders, again taken from act 91. During a declared state of emergency, the director may issue such orders governing regulated professional activities and practices as maybe necessary to protect the public. And if the director finds that a professional act by a person licensed or supposed to be licensed by OPR is exploitative, deceptive or detrimental to the public or some combo of those. So the director can issue cease and desist orders. And then if there is such a cease and desist orders, and the office makes reasonable efforts to publicize it or serve the order on affected persons. It's binding on all persons licensed are required to be licensed by OPR, and a violation of the order can subject the person to professional discipline. Under the need for an injunction by the superior court and deemed a violation of unauthorized practice. And no change there. Sorry, go ahead. Sorry. Can you just give us an example of what might be considered a professional practice act or that is deemed exploitative or deceptive like selling masks or what. Well, I thought it was neat when this question came up for the director before and could be she said that the OPR had used this authority during over the act 91. And it was for MMA fighting, I believe that she said, oh yeah, that couldn't be there couldn't be. People had to maintain social distancing but here is a group of people apparently engaging in MMA fighting boxing and MMA fighting is a regulated profession under OPR. And so there they use that authority to require that to stop. Okay, thank you. Which was a neat one. I don't know maybe we can, I can reach out to her to see if there were other ones she can give an example for you on if that would be helpful. I mean, I think that's okay. Okay. Thank you. So I'll note here that does any. Oh, no, go ahead Betsy. I was going to move on. Sorry, madam chair. Does anybody have any questions, any other questions or concerns or comments on this section. No madam chair and thank you for asking that question because I had the same question. What could somebody possibly do, but I do remember her mentioning the, because it was in wrong. Yeah, fun. Also I could think it would apply, you know, when salons closed down, you know, if a cosmetologist went back and was opening up her his shop. That could be a another way that are another reason to use this authority a cease and desist. Yeah. So I'll note here that we generate is a good question because for border medical practice. The prior draft referred to OPR three vs a 127 for unauthorized practice for the same statute, the same language that would have applied to the border medical practice. And that that wouldn't work because border medical practice doesn't use OPR three vs a 127 for unauthorized practice. So we started to discuss on what might be a proper substitute. And on further reflection the executive director of the border medical practice is requested that this same section not be included in the border medical practice section. As I understood it, the border medical practice doesn't you have ordinarily have cease and desist authority, and it appeared from what I gathered that they would already be able to address this and other ways. So as I understood it, the overall perception of the board at this time was it wasn't, it's not necessary to include it in this bill draft. So that was the one substantive request from the board of medical practice would be to remove that section. And so I did that for this draft since, as I understood it, the executive director advise it, probably not they didn't want to pursue it at this time. So that was the one substantive change for the board of medical practice. Any questions or concerns or comments on on this section. Okay. Thank you. So then in section 14 you're going to start to see a repeat of these same provisions but for the border medical practice. You can tell we're talking about the board of medical practice in section 14, because it starts out with 26 vs a that's title 26 is where the border medical practices statutes are versus OPR is being in title three of the Vermont statutes annotated, and it goes a little bit out of order that's the third technical correction, because the board of medical practice has different sub chapters. And one of them is about the board specifically, and then a following sub chapters about licenses. And after reviewing some of these provisions, it appeared that this first one in section 14 about the executive director being able to act on border medical practice and states of emergency, it really should go into the board sub chapter. And so that's why the order is not identical between OPR and border medical practice. Because I think this same provision for OPR was just in a different place but that's the reason why I just moved it up from a different. It was further on in the bill, but just moved it up to this section 1378 because it fits within the board sub chapter. In language we already reviewed for OPR, which is that during a state of emergency, if the executive director finds the board of medical practice cannot safely meet. And if the Commissioner of Health authorizes it. Executive director can exercise the full powers of the board of medical practice, including disciplinary authority. Anything the executive director signs is the same force and effect as if the board of medical practice did it. And there has to be a record of those actions that are posted conspicuously on the board's website. And I would, I will give a prize to any committee member who actually saw that it was in a different order and questioned about why it was in a different order. Did anybody pick that up. If you did you get a prize. Okay, thank you Betsy and I guess we didn't. I didn't. I pointed out there that's why it changed a little bit, but without any change to substance. So section 15 now skipping ahead to 26 VA say 1405 because now we're in the licensing sub chapter. This is the same thing about out of state healthcare workers being able to come back and practice in Vermont during a state of emergency. This is authorized by the Commissioner of Health, the executive director the board of medical practice can authorize a healthcare professional who practices one of the board's professions and holds a valid license and some other US jurisdiction to be deemed licensed here in Vermont to provide healthcare services to a patient in Vermont using telehealth or as part of staff provided same qualifications they're licensed. Other US jurisdiction, not subject to any professional disciplinary proceedings anywhere in the US, and not affirmatively affirmatively barred to practice here in Vermont for reasons of fraud or abuse patient care or public safety person who is deemed to be licensed has to submit their contact info, including where they're practicing to the board, and they consent to the jurisdiction, the regulatory jurisdiction of the board, there's that technical correction, regulatory jurisdiction. And this authority remains in effect until the state of emergency is terminated. And so long as the professional remains licensed and good standing. Any questions concerns comments on that section. Okay. Thank you. We are on section 16. Now, and this is about those inactive healthcare professionals coming back to practice. I've learned what we already reviewed for the OPR. This is for the Board of Medical Practice saying during a declared state of emergency, when authorized by the commissioner of health, the executive director of the Board of Medical Practice can authorize a former healthcare professional who practice one of the board's professions and left active practice not more than three years ago with their Vermont license in good standing to provide healthcare services to a patient located in Vermont, either by telehealth or as part of a staff as a facility. After they submit their contact info, including where they'll be practicing to the board. They can do so without a license for not more than 30 days pending their application for temporary license, or until the executive director determines whether to issue a temporary license, whichever is first, and the executive director can issue these temporary license to these returning healthcare professionals at no charge and impose limits on their scope of practice, and they're subject to the regulatory jurisdiction of the board. So there's those two other technical corrections using the phrase regulatory jurisdiction, and then consistently calling it a temporary license, because it in two places it called it temporary license and one emergency license and the other. Okay. Anybody questions with that. Okay, thank you. Okay on to sheriffs. Yeah, so just a reminder that Board of Medical Practice about the emergency regulatory authority of the executive director was moved out, no longer in here. So we get to the sheriffs. And this is the authority based on Act 100 for a sheriff to be able to use county reserve funds when approved by the assistant judges. This was the same thing that you put in your Act 100 now just here for a future state of emergency. So it's saying during a state of emergency that affects a county in order to support the emergency needs of that county sheriff due to the emergency. The county's operation reserve funds and capital reserve funds that are described elsewhere in law, may be allowed to be used for the emergency needs of the sheriff subject to the approval of the assistant judges. There's that same definition of emergency needs that was taken from Act 100. It's the needs to respond to the emergency and it includes hiring deputies dispatchers and other personnel and purchasing equipment and supplies. This emergency funding from the reserve funds is in addition to the minor support of the sheriff's department that's set forth elsewhere in law. In this picture right now, sheriffs are not allowed by statutory law to access the reserve funds and more contract for aside from the sheriff's own statutory salary. It goes on like Act 100 did to say that if a sheriff receives those county reserve funds for emergency needs, the sheriff is required to apply to any applicable resources for emergency. Whoops. Sorry, I got the notice my internet was unstable. The sheriff is required to apply to applicable resources for emergency relief like FEMA that are known to the sheriff for any allowable reimbursement. And then within 30 days of any getting getting any of that reimbursement. The sheriff has to provide those funds the county in order to reimburse the county, but a sheriff's only responsible for reimbursing the county in an amount equal to what they got through those other resources like FEMA. And then there is a sunset, the authority for the sheriff to obtain funding for emergency needs under sub a sunsets two weeks after the day the governor terminates the state of emergency, which is also what was in act 100. Any questions concerns about that I think we heard from both the sheriffs and the side judges that they were okay with this language. Seems like I remember that. Yep. No problem. Okay. So the effective date section. So this bill overall would take effect on January one of next year, except that repeal of the use of the town highway funds would take effect on July one of next year. And that is because of remind us why that does won't take effect until July. I think there was a reason a Tucker question. I'm not exactly sure. Is that future effective date. I, I do remember the content. Yes Tucker, would you like to remind us. Sure, the, the repeal is set for the start of the next fiscal year for most of the municipalities, so that the prohibition on commingling of funds will be lifted at the same time as the towns are heading into the new next budget cycle. So I think this will pass and they'll have some advanced notice that as of July 1, you know, the requirement for the separate town highway fund is going away, and they can start sharing if need be. Sounds good to me. Anybody else have any questions or concerns or thoughts about that one. I see Karen and Gwinn are both with us. No. Yeah, they might still be, I knew that they had to participate in a emergency management call. Oh, I see maybe Karen's coming back. Yeah, but I, I haven't actually seen that. I haven't been looking at the right draft. Sorry. Well, I think the main question is. Right now the effective date of mixing the highway fund town highway funds. Yeah, it's effect on July 1, 2021. Yes, we that we think that's fine. Okay. All right committee. Where are we. We're good. Think to say. I think we're in a good place. Yeah. I think we've learned, I think we've learned lessons. And I have my, I, I want you to see your clerk is prepared. She has a vote sheet. All right. Did we do anything about electronic vote sheets? No, I still have to mail these to Gail. You know what I saw another city do just snap a photo of it with your phone and you could just send it. You could just email it. I could, but I want to keep the post office in business. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking of mailing. Did you all get your ballots today for the judicial retention? No. Yes. Yeah, because I haven't gotten my mail yet. Be downstairs when I get back down. Wow. I'm impressed. Did you are you still running? Charing up those elections. No, I have chosen not to do this one. Because it would, it requires going to Montpelier. And it doesn't make any sense for me to drive to Montpelier just to do that. And Becca will be in Montpelier anyway for a separate. Meeting. So it makes sense to have her do it. Anthony, we could volunteer Anthony. He lives so close. Well, I think they need two senators and they were trying to. Ask senators who were. You know, I think they need to think how to put this. Not in a vulnerable population. Meaning us old folks. And. So Becca will do the tell the chief teller, I think, because she'll be there anyway for a meeting. Great. I don't, I don't know who he asked for the second one. It might have been Anthony or might have been Andy. I don't know. Okay. Well, are we ready for. Are we ready for a motion? Are we ready to say, yeah, we don't have a bill number, but. I would, I would move that we. That we approve draft 2.2 of lessons learned. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Second. Would anybody like to. Make a final comment or anything on this, anybody out there? I would just say thank you for taking this up again. Well, we had to earn. We appreciate. What? Sorry, Mike. No, likewise. Thank you for your work on this. I know it's a pain. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. All of you. Thank you. And we appreciate the input from everybody. Yeah. Well, and I think it's good. I think this bill is just the foundation upon which more will be attached. So we'll have this is, this is. Round one of lessons learned. And I think we'll see several other iterations of it. Okay. Do you want to. Absolutely. So the motion is to approve draft 2.2 of our. All right. Okay. Okay. So we'll move on to the lessons learned bill and are we ready for vote? Okay. Senator Bray. We're not. Senator Bray. Are you. Trying to do his. I will come back to Senator Bray. Right. You know, she's hard to find too. Yes. Senator. Yes. Senator. Yes. Senator Polina. Yes. Senator White. Yes. Senator Bray. Yes. An animus vote. Okay, great. Thank you. Thanks Betsy and Tucker. Thank you. It was great work. Thank you. Yeah. Great work at the very beginning when we were doing the ones that ended up being acts that led into this and then great work putting it together for us in this form. So, how many acts fed into this act 91. 100 act 100 91 100 and what else bets your Tucker. Act 91 was the first covert act and that's where as the professional regulation stuff came from act 92 was your gov ops first emergency bill and that had the election stuff and Tucker, most of Tucker's got a variety of bills in here actually act 106. So we're up to four acts fed this bill. So that's so good it's it's like not having to duplicate our work in the future it's like we've done this work this is a great this is great. Carpe diem sees the moment we're putting in this is great. Okay. I am, I am happy to report it unless somebody wants to. I think you should report it madam chair because it's your baby. So Betsy and and Tucker if you have any notes that I mean I think I'm pretty clear but so don't don't spend a lot of time coming doing a lot of detailed notes but if you have helpful hints that would be great thank you. And a summary of the bill be useful for us, those of us who are writing about it. So, okay, committee. Yay. Good work. So, the one other thing that we had on the agenda for today was s 220 if, if we know where that is and what has happened to it Betsy, and do you know. So it's just waiting house action, it got voted out of house give ups and house ways and means and house of probes but today the house is first doing the budget. And battle take a while. Yeah they just, they just started I believe at two o'clock. And so I think it was tentative as to whether the house would take up as to 20 today. And I think, as I understand it they're going to do a cox of the whole just to do an overview and then they would go to floor, but I just don't know if it's going to be today or tomorrow. I think they're being flexible with their schedule. So aside from any surprise house amendments or anything, were there any major changes other than the ones that you gave us before. Nope, all the changes right now are what is thank you to Gale for posting this it's on posted on your webpage. The HGO amendment. So there are just the eight instances of amendment that we already reviewed. And I think the house of process it's always in means to about the structure or the fee structure. Did they do anything. Nope, they, they just want more information about OPR fee structure and how it works and, but they had no amendments to propose. Is that somebody that we should be paying attention to. I guess not. Anyway, so. Committee, I think what we have on Tuesday is. The National Guard and a couple of people have asked to testify. How are you on that? Somebody's a little confused. It sounds like Brian though. It sounds like a funny loop of our tape. No. Well, whatever it is, let's try to ignore it and see if we can finish up today. And then on, I would also like us on Tuesday to, if we allowed an hour for the National Guard and that topic, is that enough? Do you think Anthony? Probably. Okay. And then. I would like to go through one 24 with Betsy to see where. The house is on it. Yeah. And then some of the other things that we just talked about. And also have. Commissioner. Sherlyn come in and talk to us because, as you know, the governor put out an executive order. And some of the things in the executive order sound. Like he just lifted them out of one 24. So have. Look at, have Mike. Sherlyn come in and talk to us about. if there's any conflict, or I don't think there is, but just so that we understand what's the relationship there. And then Wednesday, BGS purchasing, just to talk to them because we heard from corrections that it took BGS so long to go through the purchasing procedure that they actually weren't able to get the PPEs that they wanted. So, and then any charters, I mean, I think that next week we have to be a little bit flexible around charters and 124, those are the two things. Is that where we are? Yeah. Sounds good. So I don't think we need to meet tomorrow, do you? Wow. Because they won't have passed 220. Right. And even if they do pass 220, well, maybe I should ask, are we okay with the changes that they made? There was a VCIC proposal. Betsy went through these before. They pushed the deadlines, they removed the section that says about removal of street clothing, and then they pushed back some other dates and they changed the effective date. So really the only two changes other than dates were the removal of clothing and the VCIC proposal, which came from VCIC. I'm fine with them. Anthony? As much as I can remember, yes. I remember we agreed to them at the time we went to them. Allison? I'm with Anthony. I just, I'm sort of booting up as I remember our conversation a couple of days ago and looking at this. And Chris? It would be helpful when we do to have somebody from SGO, a HGO come and just talk about what the reasoning was behind them. But other than that, I'm fine. Yeah, I don't care. I just don't want, if they voted it out, even if they voted it out tomorrow, we wouldn't get it on Tuesday, right? On the floor. So we would have Tuesday afternoon to just briefly look at that. Okay. Right. So I don't. I don't know about having somebody come in from the house. I mean, if they all they did was change effective dates, what difference does it make? Well, change the removal of clothing. That's the only. Could we just ask Betsy just to give us, give me like one sentence on each of those changes. So I remember what they were. And what their thinking was. Why, I mean, why did they change the clothing? I think if we did that, then we wouldn't have to meet tomorrow. Great. Just be reminded. Yes. All right. That's the end. Sure.  Yep. It's right here on our website. All right. First instance of amendment is just changing the language about criminal background checks that OPR is allowed to conduct. The bill has passed the Senate contained the FBI's requested language. And then this change reflects the CICs, just tweaks that they had. The second and third instances of amendment are related to the deadlines in regard to clinical pharmacy prescribing. There were deadlines for the commissioner of health to adopt some of the state protocols and the board of pharmacy to have rules to support clinical pharmacy prescribing by January. And so they extended those deadlines from January to July of next year. Just for more time, purpose of more time. The fourth and fifth instances of amendment are in regard to the massage body workers' touch professionals regulation. And remember, it's a registration requirement. And one of the qualifiers to register was you only have to register if you're providing those services to clients in a manner in which they remove street clothing and have a reasonable expectation of privacy. The fourth and fifth instances of amendment would remove the street clothing qualifier. I think just I can't speak the legislative intent, but the conversation was how do you tell gym clothes, taking those off, taking off a sweatshirt, you're in a gym. I just think part of it was what constitutes street clothes and how are you going to regulate that? So they just took that all out? Our providing service is still a qualifier that you only register if you assist the clients in a manner in which they have a reasonable expectation of privacy. So that privacy still isn't there. Great. And then the sixth instance of amendment is also in that massage chapter. And I'd call this a technical clarification. So there's that section in there that says who's exempted from the registration requirement. And it lists all these professions that are already have to get licensed and they might incorporate massage or body work into their normal scope of practice. And so one of the professions that was listed was nurses. And as I understand it, there was a request from some APRNs to specify that nurses includes APRNs. And so they just added including APRNs as a technical clarification. Line with them. Yeah. Seventh and eighth instance of amendment relate to the effective dates. So the massage provisions in the bill as past the Senate would have taken effect on November 1. And in the eighth instance of amendment that got moved out to April 1 to allow OPR more time to prepare for regulating these new professions. And so there was also that separate section that said three years out from the effective date, OPR needs to report back to the legislature on how things are going and whether there should be any amendments to this regulatory structure. And so since they moved out the overall effective date of massage to April 1, 2021, they then moved out in the seventh instance amendment that report back to be April 1, 2024 to allow this full three years. So, so committee, unless there are any questions or concerns right now, I would say that we went whenever we whenever it hits the floor of the Senate that we would just concur with their with their changes unless somebody has a problem with that. We're fine with that. That's fine. Allison. Yeah. And there's a grinning Chris Bray. Yes, I'm still grinning. Yes. Yes. So I don't think he's grinning because it's only 303. So I think that we there's no need for us to meet again about 220 and when whenever it comes to the floor, we'll just concur. OK. Yeah. All right, so I don't think there's any need for us to meet tomorrow unless everybody just really, really wants to on Friday afternoon. It's not going to be easy, but I think I can manage to stay away for an afternoon. Chris. Well, it's been at least a year since we've had a Friday afternoon discussion of cannabis in Vermont. I thought maybe we could use the extra time to revisit that. Yes. How's your conference committee going? I don't know how you just said I was 302 Anthony. It's going. Jeanette, are you still meeting? I don't know what's happening right now. You know, the house is in charge. We have given them a proposal and we'll see what happens. Well, good luck. Yeah. So anyway, OK, so I don't think we need there's any need for us to meet tomorrow afternoon. So everybody can have a. I want to I want to take us all and have a creamy. Oh, oh, yes, it is creamy. Oh, no, it's way past creamy time. That's me. It's 80 degrees outside. Are you? I know our creamy stand clothes, though, already. Thanks. We stand turned into a drive through creamy stand. Drive your car up to the window and make your order. Drive your car to the next window and pay. Drive your car to the next window and get to creamy. So you really ought to be careful because you're coming really close to the building at that point. Well, they close on Labor Day. So we're all done with creamies around here. If anyone wants to come to Woodstock, we can have a homemade ice cream at the Woodstock Creamery. Thank you. I think that I'll just go buy a pint of Ben and Jerry's instead of driving to Woodstock. But thank you. I would like to take a rain check. OK, I am open to a rain check. OK. It's about to rain here, I think. So it's been raining here all afternoon, all day. So, Gail, are you set with Tuesday? Yeah, can you elaborate on the executive order that you'd like Michael Sherling to comment on? Oh, I have no idea what the number of it is. But he knows because he was in judiciary this morning and I told him we were going to have him come and talk to us about the executive order. Yeah. I don't know if he understands. That's great. Yeah, he does. The one that's based on our bill. Just tell him. Right. I'll send it to you, Gail. Oh, OK. Yeah, I printed it out, but I don't have it here with me now, so. What day did it come out? It came out Tuesday? No. I think it was last week. Oh, was it? Oh, I thought it was. OK. Do you have it, Betsy? And for BGS, would you like just Deb Daymore or do we need anybody else to join us on Wednesday? I mean, she really is the purchasing person. And I don't know if they even have a commissioner now, do they? They have an acting commissioner. Jennifer. Did Chris call resign? He retired. Oh, I missed that altogether. He did. He retired. When does that help? Use his skills someplace else. Oh, when does that help? I think it might. July, I think. Oh. So we should invite the acting commissioner. OK. And then leave it up to them, whether they. And we can tell them that it's just in response to the concerns that were raised by the Department of Corrections about the length of time that it took to get a purchase order in order for them to be able to actually order their PPEs. And by the time they got the purchase order, the PPEs were gone. And if you want to, we can notify Commissioner Baker at DOC that we're going to just talk about this so that he knows. OK. That'd be a good idea. Yeah. Anything else? Let's see how creative we can be. No, it's not. Huh? But have they taken up any charters yet? Oh, Tucker, Tucker. No, they have not taken up any charters yet. And I know one of the charters you asked about was the Berry City Charter. And I can't remember if I mentioned it the last time you asked about that particular charter, but there was no Berry City Charter Bill introduced this session. Well, because what I got a note from them that said that there were two charters that they were considering that they were going to take up both non-controversial. One was Berry City and one was Burlington. So Berry Town doesn't have a charter, does it? Berry Town? Maybe it's Berry Town. Berry Town also has both Berry Town and Berry City have charter amendments that were passed this spring. Neither of them were introduced this session as a bill. Oh, OK. Well, if they weren't in, we'll take them up. If the House takes them up, we'll look at them. So the only one we're actively waiting for is the Burlington one. As soon as they take up any in their committee, Tucker, can you let us know? And then we'll look at them at the same time. Absolutely. Thank you. OK, committee, I think we're unless you want to keep chatting. No, Mike, Mike, Mike, Donahue has an issue. Oh, I'm sorry. Mike, you're unmuted, but I can't hear you. Mike. Mike, we can't hear you. You're unmuted, but no, we can't hear you. Try unmuting yourself again. Wonder if you turn down your volume on your laptop. No sound. This is the time for sign language. Send us an email, Mike. Or can you dance? I think it's the volume on your computer. Yeah, or just leave and come back. Then we'll. And we'll be gone. We'll wait if you want to do that and come back. OK, I'm going to end the live stream, Senators.


Federal High Court in Abu Dhabi Monday dismissed a bid by a fractional group in the Action Alliance AA Party to stop the Certificate Forge Result instituted against the presidential candidate of the All Progressive Congress, APC Bola Meir Tinumbo. The bid by the group loyal to Tinumbo and led by Adekunle Rufay Omarja was rejected by the Federal High Court from being joined as an interested party to defend Tinumbo in the Certificate Forge Result brought against him by the AA Party. Justice Obira Iguatu in ruling on the joint application of Omarja and his faction throughout the request on the grounds that conditions preceded for search joined her to be granted when not placed before the court.