Hello and welcome the quality of life Today our subject deals with education and joining us today are the principles from Sheboygan North and Sheboygan South Sheboygan North we have Jason Bould principle. Welcome Jason. Thank you for having me excellent And then from Sheboygan South we have Mike Trimberger. Thank you for having me.  This is I'll be concluding my third year's principle at North and I was an associate principal at North for three years prior to that I was fortunate. I think Jason and I it was The same summer we got hired so this is also my third year so we've kind of got to sharpen our teeth together in some cases and Before that I was an elementary principal at Sheridan Elementary and Sheboygan for three years. Okay, great When we talk about education and how it you know deals with quality of life How is that relation and how do they play one role play with the other what influence does education have on one's quality of life start off with?  You know There's a lot of different pathways that students can choose career-wise going right into the workforce going into Two-year college for your college things like that It doesn't matter as long as you're a lifetime learner and you're always trying to strive to get better It's going to make you better at whatever you do think along with that we talked to our students about Education should in addition to a lifelong piece it should make Provide an opportunity to be successful and to be happy and success and happiness must be measured by our individual students And prepare them to make a positive impact in their community Pee back onto that. Why is education so important? You know, I think there's a lot of information out there that says that The the level of education can be correlation to how much your salaries are going to be so You know in some cases for people the level of education can be how much you're going to make Satisfaction to jobs things like that But really as you look at it from a community standpoint the better educated Community we have the the more successful we're going to be the community the better we're going to be from our from our people and engineers to our CEOs to this to our Students that are going to work on production lines or work in other areas The more educated they are the better they're going to be able to give to the shaboying community I would totally agree out though a more educated informed population Turns into a well-functioning Thriving community Now you're from the high school education, but you know you have dealings with you know people kids come in from elementary As well as it on to college Is there any certain type of education that is more influential on our quality of life? You know like high school education to life expect our life experiences to You know does it all fit together as part of a transit or is there one more influential than the other? I think it truly is High school elementary are all pieces of a puzzle There's no doubting the power and impact of the early stages of life where it's not formal education, but it's experiential it's learning traditions and culture And experiential learning is continued through all ages But coupled with formal education those those are the many pieces of the puzzle that that provide a well-rounded again educated and informed individual and I'm really getting excited with some of the things that we're doing in the district with Technology about how much we can personalize learning because you know elementary middle school those foundations are so important in high school as the brain matures they get Different biases different things like that and when we can start personalizing and saying this is the level This means lifelong learning to me or this means lifelong learning to me can be totally different And when we can individualize and break that down That's when we can really get to that next level of education and make sure that everybody's learning to their potential I think that really goes back to Success and happiness as measured by that individual right now as Mike said is it's personalized So if we can provide opportunities for our students to be exposed to many things different courses different experiences They will find their niche they will be happy They will be successful as they measure it and in turn be good community members Mm-hmm, I think what you mentioned there Jason there are key elements to you know ones measure of quality of life You know they're happy they feel good dig about their bounce their step when they get out of bed in the morning They're happy to go to work or whatever activity are going to do They're contributing to their community in their other areas which in turn helps other people Increase their quality of life. So I think those are all key factors You know as well, and I think it's a balance between all of them and the reason why I say that as I know some people who Really high salary Well money, you know or income is obviously helps to contribute But if you're miserable and other things are you really happy and do you have a quality of life? If you hate, you know getting up and going to work or you know, I really don't want to do this I think that can take a toll on somebody as well Well the the quote that I love that put at each one of my emails is From Abe Lincoln, whatever you are be a good one And I think that really when it fits very well in education because it doesn't matter if you're a Doesn't matter where you're at if if you are a lifelong learner and you enjoy what you do You'll be good at it and and really that's what we want We all want to to get to a level that we can be happy with our professional life with our personal life What the things we're doing in the community and that's that's a powerful statement I would agree with the educational process, you know, they always say, you know, we learn Probably our brain will absorb as much and probably till we're about 10 years old or whatever is or whatever the figure is Is there a certain age limit or age range that really is more influential or Can be more directed than others, you know in there in a process we We had career connections couple weeks ago and we likened educating the young mind to a sponge Because students don't have those predispositions because they don't have that the information they get the absorb from all different areas But when you start educating the mature mind, it's more like trying to pour water into a bottle You know, they they have things they're interested in and you have to get those interests to make sure that you can fill that bottle with knowledge And when you see that and you can know that younger minds will take absorb anything they can older minds You need to be a little more Perscriptive and you need to know that you're hitting those interest things to really make sure you're engaging them That's when you can really start saying that any mind can learn even the oldest minds as long as you hit those pieces that they're looking for And again as you touched on the research is clear that the earlier stages of our lives are the most impactful for Skills and abilities, but as Mike said, there's no doubting it ties into that personalized learning if we can hook any student whether 17 or 77 if they have interest it's engaging We can teach them My next question kind of ties into what you were alluding to Mike is you know as times have changed How has education requirements changed with it to keep up with life and more I'm going with this is I'm working on initiative that my IT position over at the city and I'm calling it the speed of life You know used to say, you know change at the speed of business or change at the speed of light Or one thing that's constant has changed, but when I've seen now through the technology and the rush of one's lifestyles You basically have to keep up with the speed of life as it's changing You know so with that in your sponge analysis. Is there some point you have to regnet sponge out so it can You know soak more or to that point, you know, I think the transition we're seeing in education right now is The whole mode and how we educate You know if you go back five years to 50 years The mode was the teacher was the person pouring the water on the sponge And then the students were the sponge absorbing it and what we're seeing more and more now is is with the information That's out there in the axis we have when the teacher can be the facilitator and the in the sponge can kind of find Their water with different ways and using technologies to use the worldwide web To collaborate with their peers That's the way education. I see changing mostly and it's not the teacher giving information It's the teacher guiding the students so they can find it for themselves Okay, I think the students are going along with the sponge here The students are the ones that will wring out the water and the students will be the ones say how much water And the students will say no I've had enough water So that's you know that goes along with that piece is we are now more than ever I think asking students what do you need and providing multiple opportunities and allowing Students to make the choices so that goes along with that personalized and again Providing engaging opportunities because the more and more you throw at somebody and that's where you come into the burnout factor How much can you absorb? How much can you take before you just start to burn out? And then you shut down that way as well With the educational system what types of distractions are you seen you know There's lots of influences out there that may take students or kids Steer them down the wrong path. What's you know, what are some of the things that you're seeing now in the schools? I think the greatest impact or distraction that we're seeing is the change in our socio-economic Peace in our in our community what we see in our community is reflecting in our schools North High School for example is Realizing the highest percent of free and reduced lunch numbers that it's ever seen Ten years ago. We're a single digit single percentages of students receiving free and reduced lunches now We're over 40% and that has far-reaching impacts of what needs our students bring to our schools and Subsequently what our families can and cannot do for their student and our learning community So for me, that's the biggest impact right now and I would agree with Jason I think that's the biggest a close second if I had to come up with one it would be just the the political World that we're living in I think education has gotten to be Platforms for people to be elected reelected. I think there's some really there's some good things going on politically in education I think we're we're needing to be as transparent as we've ever been And I think education we're doing some really good things and you're gonna see you see in the next couple years the great stuff We're doing but there's other there's other places and I'll use common core is a really good example There's a lot of political pressure saying common core is Obama core and all these other things You know common core does not tell us how to teach students. It doesn't tell us It tells us really what a third grader should know in math But because of the way the political climate is People want to say that's a bad thing and and I look at is we want to teach We want to make sure our kids leave and they're ready, you know ready to go their lifelong learners Give us where you want us to take them and we can take them there because we have people in our buildings That are that are ready to make sure our students are successful when they leave okay Our education, you know, it's a process It's a journey and one I'm going to say is they get an educational toolbox, you know by learning you get your tools You know, you become familiar with them The way life our lifestyles change especially in our community right now you hear there are jobs out there But they're all specialized jobs where you know, they need training or they need you don't special skills With the way times of change Do you see the approach change as far as how we educate our students meaning? You know used to be hey you could graduate from high school You could get a job at coal or live well and retire from there, you know, then the Method change to okay You go to high school go to college and then you get your masters and bachelor's degrees and all that Well, you see those people out there those kids having a hard time finding a job as well It's because you're almost overqualified or you don't have the technical skills Like would you go to a LTC or something? How do you see that? approach changing I don't know if it's it's an a change in their approach But I think it's a reemphasis on personalized learning again but also a Refocusing on the liberal arts comprehensive nature of a high school We want our students to be exposed to many experiences to find their niche So certainly have Experiences in tech ed playing with metals and have choir experiences and good solid Science experience and the list goes on but to find their niche and once they find their niche We can take them to the next level prepare Again if we provide engaging opportunities across the board We're confident that our students will find that niche and then we can take them And you know I think the other thing we're trying to do is is break down some of the bricks and mortars of the school and get Some opportunities for students outside the building because we know that there's a lot of learning that can happen outside of the classroom and You know what one of the things we know and I think you're with this question is we know there's going to be a skills gap looming as the generation The baby boomers start retiring There's a lot of our employers that are saying we don't know how we're going to fill these spots And a lot of those spots are mid-skill and high-skill jobs We need to make sure our students are ready for them And you know some of the things that we're doing now is is partnering with local employers and saying You know we have students that have shown an interest in engineering and they've taken some engineering classes here in our Building can they do an internship with you to take some of the things they learned in the classroom implying in in the workforce and That model is really starting to gain some momentum in our community And I'm really I've been very impressed with Sheboygan County as a whole The way people have opened their doors and led some of our students take what they're learning in high school And they're finding out that high school students can be very useful in their doors and on their floors doing some of these things and Truly the level of education we can have our kids apply those things in in a job-based work-based learning opportunity Just helps that learning skyrocket I think what we found is a common theme or a common foundation To whether we provide experiences outside the classroom inside the classroom Is that we'll be providing students are giving them every opportunity to be exposed to some soft skills That are transferable to whatever job because it is an ever-changing world So if our students can leave with certainly a level of learning find their niche, but also have some skills such as teamwork problem-solving Importance of being on time Collaboration those things will always be with them and be transferable to whatever career aspiration Journey to take some I know I had a conversation here a while back with philosophy professor dr. Lizzecki, and he was my favorite professor here and Seeing now when I was talking to him. I think it finally clicked you know of why I take why I took classes like philosophy or Introduction to filmmaking or these other things and you touched upon it. I think you hit it right on the head Jason is where Yes, I went and I got my computer skills and math skills, you know, and I've got my toolbox so to speak But I think exposing yourselves to other things and maybe I'm not a philosophy You know professor or anything But at least it's those exposures that cause you to stop and think about something in reason your way through it And I think that's where Our society as a whole has kind of fallen off it's either they're trying to make everything black and white and it's not I'm sorry, but life is not black and white there's a lot of gray in the middle and I think that's where our Education needs to come through is how do we navigate the gray area because to me life is like okay? You want to get from point A to point B? But it's filled with crocodiles in between and you had to get on the right steps And that's where the gray matter comes in or common sense is what I define it as so I think that's why the more Opportunities, you know though. I know why you know we had physical education in school You got to think about that the whole you know projects everything I think it all plays a whole role where it comes together at least that's my opinion on it So whether you agree or not sure you bring you bring back the sponge piece We want to fill those sponges with as much Different types of fluids and let the sponge make the determination of which fluid they like the best which way What's their path? In the schools What would you say are the distractions to the students what negative things are you know you that you You know constantly have the combat, you know the whole heroin presence, you know in in around in you know Other negative like gangs or anything like that you see any of that in the schools And if you do what do you do to try and you know steer the kids clear of that? You know one of the things that we've taken a big switch on this year is we call it the Red Wing way and it's really working with behavior, but in a positive way and there's There's a lot of things going on in our community We know there's that presence of heroin we know that there's you know different gangs and things like that But what we're finding is you know if you're going to make school the safe place to learn There's some high expectations that we have for students that they don't and we're gonna Focus on the positive and we're gonna correct the negative behaviors And truly it's changed a lot of the culture in our building So, you know, I know we did a presentation not too long ago. We worked with the police department and Make the right choice. I think to talk about making poor choices and using drugs and things like that And you know the nice thing is is the heroin thing we haven't seen in our schools yet But I know our kids are dealing with it when they get home I know there's some of those things going on. It's just it's too prolific to not happening So even though some of these things maybe not coming into our hallways The effects of them are coming into our hallways And those are the things that that we try to have a supportive culture in our building to make sure that our kids know That when they come to school, it's a safe place and you know, and then it comes back to education Because because you have these things happening at home education can be that key to unlock the door So you don't kind of hit those some of those same Same cycles as maybe people in your family have Think it goes back again to the impact that our change in socio-economic In our community has had so again similar what Mike has said we're not seeing heroin in our schools But we are seeing some other impacts that that decline in Income has had and similar to what South is done with the Redwood wing north has north being north It's it's the same thing different package, but we're focusing on what ownership looks like what ownership looks like in the classroom What it looks like outside the classroom?  What does it look like to be engaged outside the classroom, and that's that's positively impacted our culture? That's great news that you're not see I mean yes, you're seeing the side effects I mean we'd be silly to say no if we didn't think it was but the side effects of there in our community All right one thing I'll mention is dr. Howard Croft over at st. Nicholas Emergency room he's a medical director, and he does a fantastic presentation working with if he worked with South and the City police as well as you know the sheriff's department on the whole heroin initiative. He's a fantastic presentation on you know the causes How do you detect it the side effects and results of it you know the side effects which you might be seeing the influence of in the schools as well So definitely Then what you had touched upon as well. I know The it almost comes down to our core values of what we believe in and teach and it's nice that the schools have a Environment where the kids can consider a safe haven and get them into these other programs like our Broadcasting initiative partnership to get him excited about it. We started out with 14 kids and now It's coming fall We've got 60 alternates, you know along the other thing and we want to do the same thing with the radio program and for my partnership So one of the core values, you know that I got from my Ten year over at st. Nicholas is their core values are respect care Competence and joy and actually that comes from Springfield down at the motherhouse for faith-based medicine, you know you got to respect each other Competence you got to be able to do and you know meet your needs Joy you want to have fun at what you do, you know, and then there's care You got to care about what you do and care about others that fits in well with the whole model of a quality of life I would think you know, so Thank you very much so for sharing that with us because that's you know was the CEO over there Very influential person and I you know I take those teachings right on to my position here, you know and with those You know you talk about the other Opportunities and I had my introduction to filmmaking class. I'm going well. This is cool Later to find out in life here. I am with WSES and I'm in front of the camera as well as you know the station reports to me So it's just weird. You never know how it's something's going to just fall into place. Oh, absolutely. Very true. So What are some of the unique programs that you know at each of your schools or a collaboratively working together that you have to help Education and you know getting our kids steered off into the right direction I Think we're limited to 30 minutes here. So You know, there's no doubting the number of programs that are ongoing and Continue the end being initiated But I think one that I would talk about between north and south is really the manufacturing pathway Looking at building relationships with our schools and manufacturers to provide again more experiences for our students and to provide Another level of experiences who have students that have gone through certain Core courses or prerequisite courses, but now we'll take those skills and apply them to real-life project-based learning and The manufacturing one is something that that Jason and I and our staff in both our buildings have been trying to build and We're very excited to get that Implemented the one at itself that I that we just got certified that I'm really excited about is our health care pathway kind of same piece that we're talking about with manufacturing, but we've worked with partners with the Wisconsin's School of Medicine and Aurora and Prevea and they've actually we've created a We call them pathways for students that are interested in any health care job. So We're seeing from the creation of this We had 50 some students sign up for classes to next year I think we have 175 students that are taking these classes because they know these are the high school classes I can get you set it up to go pre-med in college go to nursing And you know as we find things that we always say kind of jazz students up And what if they know that's what they want to do those are some things we're doing we have Manufacturing health care. We're looking at computer science Those are some of the really cool things that we're seeing in education because Employers are willing to say we will partner with the schools to help create some of these things because we know it's just good for our community Okay, I know that partnering I think is going to be definitely a way of the future because it almost works like a Recruiting area, you know, we hired Lacey Fister from Boykin South through the broadcasting group And in fact she just did her first new show the other day, you know So that's a win-win because you know it gives us a chance to teach skills or you know and let her know We're looking at and get that experience where I know she wants to go into broadcasting So it's a win-win situation, you know, so it's kind of like training but extending their education into the real world And you know one of the cool thing I'm a shaboying and native, but I've been so impressed with shaboying County We have a a new company out there called inspire shaboying County That's a bunch of educators and employers that are getting together to help with building these Relationships and build the partnerships and and the amount of our employers and schools that are involved in it Just growing on a you know every day type basis and it's just really cool to see how our community gives back to the schools And how we really can have this really good discussion between the k-12 schools the post-secondary schools and the Employers that will someday our students will land in okay We've got a couple minutes left. So if you were to speak in front of a group About education and quality of life. What would be the advice you would give? What would be the audience? Students would say a student graduation, you know Let's just say it for just you know for the sake of our time or whatever Let's say if you had a at a commencement ceremony I would talk about the Hope that I had that they left north Specifically north high school with again the soft skills such as teamwork collaboration problem-solving and I think the hope that I would have that they take those skills and Apply them to their next Thing in life whether it's work whether it's college whether it's the military and The ultimate hope that they would be happy successful productive members of their community Okay, I would go back to to my my quote. I said whatever you are be a good one and being a lifelong learner Picking the things that really interest you that give you passion Continually to learn about them and then be good at what you want to be and and if we can leave our students with That message that education is the key to help me find a job that I'm passionate about and also be good at what I am That's a that's a message. I'd like everybody to leave with okay Well, we're out of time, but I'd like to thank both of you for being on the show, you know to talk about this important subject On behalf of WSS and quality of life. I'd like to thank Jason bull and Mike trim burger I'm Dave Augustine, and if you'd like more information about the show or this program, please just visit our website at www.wscsheboygan.com Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time


When you first enter a flood damage home, you want to try to prioritize the work. If you have a lot of contents and things that were left behind, try to get those things out of the way first because when you start doing the deconstruction, taking down the walls, those are just going to get in the way. So that's probably the first thing. The next, if you have carpet, taking out water soap carpet, again, can be done with a utility knife. Cut it up into pieces so they're not too big, not too heavy to carry. Take out the water containing materials like that that can contribute to the mold problem. The next thing is really looking at the different levels of the house. In this case, again, this is the water level about five and a half feet where the water got up to on the main floor. So the basement was totally submerged and the upstairs, by and large, was okay. We did take out some of the carpet on the steps just above the level of the water, but other than that, the upstairs is basically in pretty good shape. So we can talk about this in terms of a triage, almost like the medical term. We talk about patients in different conditions during kind of a crisis, emergency situation. That's really what we're looking at here. So our basement is really the patient that is going to be in the worst shape, but there's really not a whole lot you can do immediately to help that. The priority is really in this case on the main floor going and trying to get out as much of the walls so that the studs and the interior of the walls can dry out so the mold doesn't take over. The upstairs, as we talked about, is generally healthy of the three patients. A little bit of work, but really the only thing we did is take out some of the carpet on the stairs. And within that, we can prioritize even further, starting with the main floor, getting the contents out, taking the carpet out, and then looking at the rooms. The bathroom is a wet environment normally anyway. So the most mold that we typically see at the beginning is in the bathroom. And so we try to prioritize by going to the bathroom first, okay? Then if we walk over to the kitchen, here's our kitchen area through here. And that was our second priority because of the wetness again in the kitchen, okay? So getting things out of the kitchen as well. The next priority after that would be the external walls. And generally, on the external walls, you can see here, and maybe back over here, this is probably the best shot here, insulation on the exterior walls, okay? Again, this is an old house, so it's got old insulation, but that insulation sucks up the moisture and holds it against the wall. And it creates an ideal environment for mold organisms to grow and to cause damage and also have a health concern. So that's probably the next priority is the exterior walls, getting those exposed, pulling out the insulation and trying to get things dried out. Now you can see if you look in some of the windows here, we've got fans propped up. And once you get everything stripped out, ventilation is critical to keeping the environment dry, okay? Now, one of the things that we saw, we talked a little bit about mold already, but if you look in the kitchen here, you can see here some lath that still remains going for the upstairs. This is the other side of the wall to the upstairs. And you can see the type of mold that grows under these type of conditions. Again, the waterline is about right here, but you can see how high the mold climbs above that waterline. So it's not sufficient just to remove the wall to the waterline. You have to go all the way up, probably go at least a foot above the top part where it got pulled water up through and there's no more mold. Again, ventilation is key, so we've got fans located throughout the house, okay? This structure is fairly well open, so there's a lot of ventilation and that'll help with the drying out process.


Russia's Defense Ministry said on April 19 that eight of its long-range bombers flew over neutral waters in the Sea of Okhotsk and Sea of Japan. The aircraft provided air support to the forces of the Russian Pacific Fleet, the ministry said. A Pacific Fleet task force including a corvette and smaller anti-submarine ships held firing drills in the Sea of Japan on April 18, the ministry also said in an earlier statement. The training sorties and drills are part of a snap review of the Russian forces in the Pacific Ordered by President Vladimir Putin which started on April 14 and is set to last until April 22. Japan's Chief Cabinet Secretary Hirokazu Matsuno said on April 17 that Tokyo had lodged a protest with Russia over its military exercises around disputed islands near Japan's Hokkaido.


Steele control, Steele 6-2, airborne. Steele control, Steele 7-1, ready to check. 7-1, you can take 11-3. On to you. You got him, baby. And from Steele, Sergeant, what are you guys looking to get here?  Sergeant 315, we'll take two KMPs. 7-0, 2-8.


At first glance, on the left-hand side of the application, you can see a menu with listed sections of the application. Currently, they are all marked with red triangles. But these will disappear after you have completed each mandatory section with correct information. Individual fields within each section also have a red line on the left-hand side. As soon as you enter the required information, the line changes into green. Please bear in mind that applications cannot be submitted until all sections have been marked with a green tick. The first section is Context. And here, you must enter your project details, including the project title, acronym if applicable, start date, project duration and so on. The earliest and latest possible start and end dates of your project are based on the deadlines that you wish to apply for. These can be entered manually or selected using the calendar. Make sure you use the proper date format with hyphens if you enter this manually. 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If your project is successful, the legal representative will be required to enter your organization into a legally binding commitment to the project, so you must choose someone who is authorized to do so on behalf of your organization. If the legal representative is based at the same address as your organization, you should click the same address as organization button, which pre-populates the section with the same address that you entered in the participant portal. The contact person you add after adding your legal representative will be the first point of contact during the application process and, if the application is successful, during the contracting and delivery of the project. We strongly recommend that the contact person is different from the legal representative and, in case of any changes in the details, the national agency must be notified. Underneath, you also have a button which allows you to add additional associated persons. So, you can click the button to add additional associated persons or delete them using the menu. The final subsection, Background and Experience, covers specific information that informs the assessor about your organization's capacity to manage the project and apply for the grant successfully. You need to provide an overview of your organization, including your aims and details of the young people you work with. Describe here how your organization's previous experience in delivering projects or activities has developed your skills and knowledge needed for the activities you propose in this application. You also need to enter information on the key staff involved in the project, including their experience and or qualification. Finally, you are asked to indicate if you have applied or received any grants from any European Union programs in the 12 months preceding this application. If you choose Yes, the form automatically creates a new section where you have the EU program, the year, the project identification or contract number and the name of the applicant or beneficiary. You have the button to add more than one grant as well as the Delete button. Once the information of the applicant organization has been completed, you need to go back to the participant organizations where you can add details of your partners. All partners must be added to the application in the same way. Here are some hints and tips to help you with this first section of the application. A high quality application must be specific in each section, providing details on background and experience and naming the key persons delivering the project and their skills. You should emphasize the previous experience of your organization and your partners in delivering projects and activities as well as the skills and knowledge developed, linking those to the activities you propose in the application. It is worth noting that for Key Action 1, Volunteering Projects, the award criteria that your application is assessed against include appropriate experience to be able to deliver and achieve the project objectives. Explain how the activities fit into the program that you want to deliver. This will help the assessor understand the needs and expertise your organization has and the potential impact. Also make sure you are clear on each partner's work and expertise and why they have been selected. This applies to all partners, including smaller organizations.


I think it's evident to most reasonable people that the Supreme Court is currently facing a massive legitimacy crisis. And for good reason, and I'd argue that this legitimacy crisis not only rivals that of the Loch Nair era but surpasses it because it's not just that they're handing down incredibly unpopular reactionary decisions, but it's also because there's very apparently a lack of ethical standards among Supreme Court justices. Like Justice Clarence Thomas, for example, his wife used her influence and proximity to a Supreme Court justice to try to overturn the results of a democratic election. She actually reached out to lawmakers in states to get them to send in rogue electors to the electoral college to overturn the results of the last election, the last presidential election. And this is something that you can't recover from, especially considering the fact that there's been no accountability for her at this point in time, and Justice Clarence Thomas hasn't even recused himself related to cases involving January 6th, which is relevant given that his wife is now a part of that insurrection attempt. So when you see things like this, it's obvious why Americans have lost faith in the Supreme Court as an institution, but it gets worse because as the New York Times explains, as the Supreme Court investigates the extraordinary leak this spring of a draft opinion of the decision of returning Roe v. Wade, a former anti-abortion leader, has come forward claiming that another breach occurred in a 2014 landmark case involving contraception and religious rights. In a letter to Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and in interviews with the New York Times, the Reverend Rob Schenke said he was told the outcome of the 2014 case weeks before it was announced. He used that information to prepare a public relations push record show, and he said that at the last minute he tipped off the president of Hobby Lobby, the craft store chain owned by Christian evangelicals that was the winning party in the case. Now, Reverend Rob Schenke was the leader of a group called Faith and Action. So this group was an evangelical organization that was well connected, not just to other evangelical organizations, but to donors. And they had an association with various Supreme Court justices, and thanks to an article published by Politico back in July, we learned how Schenke's Faith and Action group has been influencing Supreme Court justices for years now, flying individuals to DC to visit and entertain, sitting Supreme Court justices such as Thomas Alito and Scalia back when he was alive. And the specific intent of these visits was to influence the decisions of Supreme Court justices. Now we're learning about the 2014 leak because of Reverend Schenke. And the reason why he's speaking out now is because he's split with evangelical groups, so he's blowing the whistle. And when you learn about the 2014 leak, I don't think that this affects the legitimacy of the court simply because, oh no leakers are bad. It's who leaked this decision that makes it so incriminating. The New York Times continues, Mr. Schenke, who used to lead an evangelical nonprofit in Washington, said he learned about the Hobby Lobby opinion because he had worked for years to exploit the court's permeability. He gained access through faith, through favors traded with gatekeepers, and through wealthy donors to his organization, abortion opponents, whom he called stealth missionaries. In early June of 2014, an Ohio couple who were Mr. Schenke's star donors shared a meal with Justice Alito and his wife, Martha Ann. A day later, Gail Wright, one of the pair, contacted Mr. Schenke according to an email reviewed by The Times. Rob, if you want some interesting news, please call no email she wrote. So do you understand what Schenke is alleging here? So back in 2014, a donor who Schenke knew had dinner with Justice Alito and his wife, Alito then presumably relayed the result of the 2014 Hobby Lobby case to that donor. They then relayed that information to Schenke, and then Schenke was able to use his organization to prepare a PR blitz to save face, to help Hobby Lobby prepare statements, whatever. He's saying that Alito leaked the 2014 Hobby Lobby decision. Now let me remind you that after we learned about the Dobs leak, Alito called the leak a grave betrayal. But here we have substantial evidence that Alito himself was leaking the outcome of Supreme Court decisions to huge donors connected to this evangelical organization. Now it gets worse when you consider the fact that the Supreme Court launched an investigation into the Dobs leaker, but we never learned who that leaker was. It's a little bit suspicious, is it not? Now Schenke came forward with this information two months after Roberts launched the inquiry into the Dobs leaker, because he thought that his story was obviously relevant. He essentially told Chief Justice John Roberts, hey, I know that you're trying to figure out who the leaker was, but Alito leaked an opinion to one of my donors back in 2014. Maybe this is relevant, but Schenke did not get a response from Chief Justice Roberts, which indicates that Roberts knows that Alito at least leaked the decision back in 2014, and he's protecting Alito. And if Alito leaked that decision, is it plausible to think maybe he leaked the 2022 decision, especially learning that that leak kind of helped solidify the positions of individuals like Gorsuch or Kavanaugh, whoever John Roberts was trying to get to kind of move from the total repeal or overturning a Roe v. Wade to like a 15 week abortion ban, just accepting the Mississippi law? Like, do you understand how incriminating this is? Not only do we have evidence because of this story that Alito has leaked Supreme Court decisions, but that Chief Justice John Roberts is covering for Alito by refusing to respond to this very important individual who had relevant details to that investigation. As Congressman Wander Jones puts it, this article by The New York Times strongly suggests Justice Alito leaked the 2014 opinion in Hobby Lobby and describes a conspiracy by the far right donor class to influence the Supreme Court justices.  Jesus, they are so shameless. Now as a result, Congress is pissed and they want answers. There's been calls for ethics probes, and as HuffPost explains, top Democrats on the House and Senate Judiciary committees demanded on Sunday that the Supreme Court Justice Chief Justice John Roberts comply with their investigation into the court's refusal to abide by ethics laws. And if the court continues to suggest it's not serious about policing itself, Congress will step in, warned the joint letter from Senator Sheldon Whitehouse and Representative Hank Johnson. Chairs of the subcommittees overseeing the federal judiciary in their respective chambers. Their letter to Roberts on Sunday followed up on a prior inquiry White House and Johnson made on September 7th after Politico First reported on Shank's influence campaign. At the time, they wrote to Roberts to encourage the court to adopt a formal ethics code. They demanded answers about how many justices were provided travel, dinners, logic, and other hospitality from donors connected to Shank's influence operation and why the justices did not disclose these gifts on their annual financial disclosure statements. And I know the answer to that, it's because they're all corrupt, they lack ethics, and they need to be impeached. So this is why the Supreme Court is currently dealing with the legitimacy crisis. When you have coup plotters on the Supreme Court, like Chloe and Thomas, when you have justices who are leaking opinions to donors, who they obviously are very connected to and trust, otherwise you wouldn't have leaked that information, then this is why nobody trusts the court. So the Supreme Court is moving towards this climate where we just ignore what they say since everything that they say is politically motivated and perhaps motivated by their connections with evangelical organizations. It's just, it's shocking, but so unsurprising, right? I wouldn't be surprised if we learned more about how they're in cahoots with other religious organizations because these evangelicals on the Supreme Court, they have shown that they don't care about the Constitution, they just care about enacting their theocratic agenda, forcing all of us to live in their handmade tale fantasy or whatever it is. And it's just, it's sickening, but it's par for the course when there are no ethical standards for these justices. So of course, they're going to be corrupt. Of course, they're going to just be brazenly acting in the interest of far-right donors because these are partisan actors, not objective interpreters of the Constitution contrary to popular belief.


Good afternoon. You are with the Vermont house government operations committee. We are meeting this afternoon for a little while with our new chair of the cannabis control board, James Pepper and welcome James. We have before us a bill as 25 that has come over with some changes to our cannabis laws. Some of them are some of them are are urgent and time sensitive and and really need to move forward and then there are a few others that you know that folks on the other side of the general assembly thought were important and so we will be doing our due diligence on the bill. Over the next several days to make sure that we get it moving on its way before we get to adjournment. And so I thought it was really helpful. We have looked through the bill with legislative council, but I thought it would be very helpful for us to hear from the perspective of one member of the cannabis control board and just hearing you know what is what is critical and time sensitive what is what are the aspects of 25 that are most important from the perspective of the regulatory body. And so we would love to have some time with you for questions afterward but I would like to turn it over right now and welcome James Pepper to share with us some thoughts on the bill. Hey, well thank you very much for inviting me and for the record it's James Pepper with cannabis control board. I thought that I might just give the committee a very brief update on where things stand with the board. I can talk very much just as you laid out about S 25 and my reactions to it and then and then of course take any questions that committee members may have. With respect to the board I should really just start by thanking the governor, the Attorney General, Secretary young secretaries pastiji Quinn, Fitch, the director of racial equity and all of their employees who've been incredible in anticipating the needs of the board starting building this infrastructure and working very quickly to try to make up some of the time that's been lost since we started. So just a quick update on the board. We have all of our account codes and our payrolls in place we have computers, email addresses, access to shared point and we are working on a website and getting our phones established. We have our office space picked out, and we've been to surplus to get some furniture. We worked with talent acquisition manager at the Department of Human Resources to post our executive director position and a number of kind of creative ways and outlets, and we have some very capable people that are interested in the job. We are working on posting our administrative support position. We've developed a rough perspective meeting schedule to start holding regular meetings to get to work on the board's work, and that will likely begin later this month, and we'll have kind of a consistent meeting schedule. To be in mind, we still have not been confirmed by the Senate, we don't have our executive director, and we don't have our advisory committee in place yet. So I just want to keep the expectations where I think they should be based on, you know, us getting started and delivering some of the kind of timelines and milestones. If I can turn to S-25, I just want to pause there and see if there's any questions that folks may have regarding kind of the startup of the board. All right. I think you're good to go. Thank you. Okay, well, as you indicated, Madam Chair, that there are certain aspects of the bill that I think should pass if or must pass if you want the board to be able to meet any of the FY22, and 23 deadlines that are in Act 164. There are certain amendments that should be in the bill. If you really want a well-functioning board and advisory committee, as well as a well-functioning medical use program, and then there's everything else that's in the bill, and I won't be commenting on those aspects of the bill unless asked. So turning first the things that must pass if you want us to meet our FY22 and 23 deadlines. I think Section 4A relates to it shifts the approval authority for the cannabis control boards proposed fee structure from the General Assembly to the Joint Fiscal Committee. Of course, getting that approval for our fee structure is the first domino that needs to fall before we can start the process of accepting applications, granting cultivator licenses, establishing the testing facilities, and eventually opening retail shops. So without that change, I really think that this committee and others should rethink the whole Act 164 timeline. If we don't see that change and we have to wait until next year for legislative approval of our fee structure. So that's Section 4A. The next section that I think has to pass once again if we're going to meet our timelines is the advertising plan. This is Sections 5 through 9 of the bill. So if you recall Act 164, the Cannabis Control Board and the Attorney General were supposed to work together and to submit to the General Assembly a plan for advertising by April 1 of this year. And of course, we haven't done that. And it's my understanding that the plan that you see in Sections 5 through 9 was developed by the Attorney General. And I believe that it's my understanding that it essentially is as restrictive as the advertising plans for tobacco, which is essentially a ceiling on limiting commercial speech. Now, I know that there was some conversation about maybe having an outright ban on advertising. We would certainly be breaking new grounds if we decided or if the legislature decided to outright ban advertising in this industry. I think that there's certainly an argument that could be made that, you know, given the federal status of cannabis that perhaps an outright ban would be legally defensible. As far as I'm concerned, this is probably the most restrictive advertising plan that is currently constitutionally allowed. So those are the two pieces of the bill that I think must pass if we're to meet our October 1 2022 deadline and some of the earlier deadlines. Okay, the next kind of segment of my testimony is about certain amendments to the bill to ensure kind of a well functioning board and a well functioning advisory committee and a well functioning medical use program. So section two of the bill deals with the advisory committee and it makes some changes. I would deal with those, you know, I would leave it to the committee to work out the ask from the cannabis board is with respect to the makeup of the advisory panel. I've met with the chair of the marijuana for symptom relief oversight committee, which oversees the medical use program and is very patient centric and focused. I think it would make sense in order to ensure that patients voices are very are well represented in the advisory committee that the chair or a designate of the marijuana for symptom relief oversight committee be added to the advisory committee. And one of the, I don't know if it was an oversight or not but that committee is actually set to sunset based on some of the language and act 164 and that sunset is on March 1 2022. We would ask that that be extended at least to the end of the session next year to see if there's any changes to the makeup of that board or it's enabling statute that might be necessary. The section 15 of the bill is relates to accelerating the transfer of the medical program to the cannabis control board. It's currently by statute set to transfer March 1 2022. And this section would accelerate that transfer to July 1 of 2021. In speaking with the program director at the medical program it seems like that transfer could happen on July 1. However, given where the board is as of today, and given the need for continuity of services and products to the patients on the cannabis cannabis registry. I'm not sure that July 1 makes the most sense. So, you know, my feeling is that the cannabis board will be in a much more stable position in March of next year, but that, you know, if there is a need or a desire to accelerate that transfer. You know, I think a date of possibly October 1 of this year, or maybe January 1 of next year would make more sense. But again, if it's, if it's July 1, we'll take it on. But, you know, just given some of the continuity of services pieces, I don't know if it makes sense to stick with that or to move it up. So another piece with respect to a well functioning board Act 164 had a number of recommendations that the board was supposed to make on April 1. You know, we were not seated at that point. We have not made those recommendations, but one of them was to submit to the General Assembly and organizational plan that included the resources necessary for the implementation of this act for fiscal years 22 and 23, including new positions and funding. So we've not done this work, of course, quite yet, but we have in the very limited amount of time that we have been established identified some needs and I've anticipated a few others, just looking at some of the other boards regulatory boards in the state and of course the 11 other states that have regulatory commissions. So one piece that we would ask for is one additional administrative support position. The three purposes that are one administrative assistant to be more of a business manager. And we need essentially, you know, an Andrea to help us with getting our meetings live streamed recorded and managing just some of the technical interplay between the public and the board in this remote setting. So we're looking for a general council position to help manage some of the litigation that we anticipate and serve as an appellate officer for some of the grievances that are filed against the board, managing public records contracting. So just looking at some of the other, again, some of the other regulatory commissions in the state, it seems that the general council has more than enough to keep them busy. So once the board starts making decisions. So, of course, some of the other boards are the other cannabis control commissions around the state have some version of the following positions. The Office of Diversity and Inclusion Office of data in business and analysis or research Office of compliance and enforcement. And very mindful of how our budgeting mechanism works, and that every dollar that we spend has to be recouped and fees and potentially some revenue. So we're trying our best to keep our footprint as small as possible. But I think both of these positions that I've laid out the administrative support and a general counselor necessary, and we'll actually save the state money in the long run. So I'd like to move on unless there's any questions about those. So I'd like to talk a little bit about the development fund that's in as 25 and social equity, generally speaking in the cannabis world. And just start by saying no amount of cannabis policy alone is going to undo some of the damage that's been done by the decades long war on drugs or selective policing or the use of criminal history records. And that correcting those harms is going to take a coordinated and sustained effort from all aspects of state government. There's certain things that the board can do using the power that it's been granted to break down the barriers of entry and encourage license ownership by people who have been disproportionately harmed by the war on drugs. The typical approach used by other states has been to reduce or waive application fees and license fees for social equity applicants to expedite social equity applications to create business training and management opportunities. And also just to fundamentally change the way we think about and use criminal history records in this in this space. And also just to define having a solid definition of social equity applicant, more fundamentally to ensure that the people that were most directly harmed by prohibition actually get to participate in this market. Those are the things that the board boards in Massachusetts Illinois, Oakland and others have done to push more equity in this space. The results have been mixed at best. You know, I think Massachusetts has all of these in place, and their license ownership is 70% white and male, and it's not much better in Nevada or Illinois. So there's certain things that we can do I think there's certain things that the legislature can do. You know, some of the bigger things would be to create a cannabis equity task force to help advise the board. You've done some work in Act 164 some good work I think first in the nation work on on preventing corporate consolidation and curbing some of the predatory lending practices. One other thing that you know you should be doing. And maybe it's not for this committee, but is to take a very broad view of community reinvestment when it comes to cannabis general generated revenue. We've got all of the second and third order effects of prohibition and the impact that those criminal history records have had on employment and education and housing and healthcare, and just general economic opportunities. Any investment with the revenue to correct those harms would be supporting social equity, but probably the most effective thing that you can do right now is to is to create a low or no interest revolving development fund. And this is contemplated in S 25 in sections 12 through 14. I'm sure it's not lost on this committee who's done so much work on cannabis policy that because cannabis is still a schedule one controlled substance federally. Businesses operating in this field have to abide by very complex rules, especially when it comes to banking. You can't get traditional loans to start up a business from a federally insured bank.  And you need to purchase supplemental insurance, which is very expensive. And I'm, and well, and you also don't have federal bankruptcy protections. So these are just a number of the artificial barriers to entry into this market that benefit well financed applicants that have a track record of success in other states, or the ones that are just willing to fund finance social equity and small cultivator applicants and potentially use predatory lending and contracting practices. So to me, I think the social development fund or the cannabis development fund is not going to be a silver bullet, but it is going to be the thing that might set us apart from some of the other states that haven't seen the results that they anticipate and that were promised when the when the original legislation was being passed. So I've touched on the areas that I think are important and be happy to take any questions. Thank you so much for being with us today and I want to say that I really do appreciate that you have a fully fleshed out understanding of what other states have done around equity and around writing the wrongs of past prohibition. And so it makes me feel very heartened that you're the right person for the job here. And I appreciate that that you are listing the development fund as a very important component of this bill. Representative representative Bihowski has a question. So thank you Mr Pepper and I want to echo that I'm really the chair and that I'm really pleased to hear your support of the social equity fund I want to go back to the community. To the board you were talking about the equity board and I'm, I am wondering if you would support something. In H414, which is on the house side there's a board proposed a community social equity program board that's really finally laid out to sort of hit on all the points that you talk about the impacts of incarceration and the impacts on health and I wonder if that is a structure that you think would be helpful in as as the board you're talking about here to really look at those social equity pieces. Can you just remind me the place where I could find the makeup of that in the enabling statue. If so it's a bill in the house right now but I can actually tell you who is on that board I'm looking at it right now so the lieutenant governor or designee. I'm the general the secretary of commerce and community development, the commissioner of health, the commissioner of corrections, the commissioner of public safety. The commissioner of human resources secretary of human services, a member of the Senate designated by the committee on committees, a member of the House of Representative designated by the speaker, a member of the Senate designated by the minority a member of the House of Representatives designated by the minority leader and then the following members would be two municipal officials from jurisdictions that include community social equity program areas to community based providers or community development organizations, one woman who has been incarcerated and is older than 24 to individuals who have previously been incarcerated and are between the ages of 17 and 24. And that so that's sort of the layout of that board. Yes, I mean that that is the kind of lived experience that we need that we're missing from the advisory committee. And, you know, as far as let's just set aside the kind of legislators and state employees because we do have ability to interface with them a little bit more easily but yes. I think that that is the kind of lived experience that we're looking for and they kind of hearing the actual impacts of and and how far they touch and how deep they reach of criminal history records and how they prevented. I mean it's and it's not just criminal history records obviously but that's kind of the, you know they say I've heard the phrase you know the cannabis is a gateway drug well what I've heard is cannabis convictions or the gateway convictions. And so, yeah, I think that that that would be an important those those are the kind of voices that we absolutely need to hear. Thank you so much. My other question for you is about the current the current board, the so the cannabis control board and I have particular concern about the appointment of someone involved in criminal justice reform by the attorney general and I wonder if you have an opinion on if that would be a better suited appointment by the ACLU. So yes I want someone involved in that but I'm wondering who should be appointing it sorry my question was not clear. Um, you know I I don't really have a strong opinion on that. I know that our current Attorney General has been deeply committed to criminal justice reform but that that position is elected and it can change. So, but I don't I don't feel strongly I feel confident that our current Attorney General will appoint someone with a good experience in that but Thank you representative Anthony. Thank you very much and thank you for helping us get on our, our legs with this and figure out what what has to come first. I wanted to follow up on two issues, one that probably is is so obvious. And, and, and you've articulated it and that is to be absolutely certain that any operations as we go through the iterations of licensing are fully adequately capitalized working capital, as well as if you will insurance capital. And at least we can manage with the full face and credit of the state, for sure. What I'm wondering is what kind of consulting help assistance on call for the soon to be selected licensees. Those folks are, if you will, eligible through the language of sort of assistance, given the social equity initiative. It's not clear to me that those any of those licensees could hit the ground running. And so where's the technical assistance the the sort of support network that it doesn't seem to me the Canada's board per se is equipped or empowered to to create or made of it make available. As you pointed out, there's no bankruptcy protection there's no access to creditor pecking orders in the bankruptcy court. So the best way to cure that problem is avoid bankruptcies. So my previous comment is, let's make sure every licensee succeeds. One of the things that we could do however, and every business has to face this is wrap around insurance for its activities. Unfortunately, the state has been very good at creating captive insurance agent industry, and I don't see why on the face of it. There couldn't be a captive insurance institutions set up that would purposely cover the apparatus of the cannabis control licensure recipients, and therefore remove that obstacle as it were. So I think they're, I'm just thinking out loud of business support systems that would be required or would be very helpful. Once the licensees are selected to make sure that we avoid creditor debtor squabbles and bankruptcy and bad loans etc etc. Thank you. Thank you for the questions and the kind of thinking out loud because it is helpful and you know we are going to be relying on the expertise of almost every official and state government to get this right.  I don't know the name a few, but yeah so the, the to answer your first question act 164 did have a piece in it about the agency of commerce and community development, developing a business and technical assistance program to help essentially train Vermont applicants and specifically calls out Vermont applicants in how to run a cannabis business and some of the management and training techniques so I think that that work. I think is due by September 1 of this year to get that program up and running so we, you know, I haven't reached out to secretary curly just yet but I do, I did mention in actually one of my interviews with her that she's going to be very essential in getting this business, getting Vermont ready for this for this industry. And certainly, other states have dealt with this as well I know Massachusetts has a very similar training program, where if you go through the training program, you get an expedited application review process you get essentially move to the front of the line. And certainly something we could consider at the board as well. And then again, any advice that we can get I know on former commissioner Donigan put together a paper on some of the insurance opportunities that and banking opportunities that existed. The paper started looking at cannabis tax and regulate back in 2015 2016. So there's, there's, there's people that are much smarter than I am that have been trying to work out some of these issues for a number of years now and we'll be picking up on that work where they left off. Thank you for that representative Colston. Thank you Madam Chair, and thank you Mr pepper for this update, and welcome aboard. Thank you. Sure. So I want to follow the line of questioning of a representative. Who was exploring. But what I feel is, is, you know, how do we, how do we collaborate with other state entities to achieve these social equity goals. I agree with you. The board shouldn't be the silver bullet for making all this happen. But do you have any specific thoughts about how that might come about in terms of collaborating with entities that can help us get to this goal. So that we're, we're very fortunate that a lot of the, I mean we're a state that passed cannabis tax and regulate, legislatively, you know, we don't really have a binding ballot initiative process in Vermont. And so a lot of other states, almost all of them started with a ballot initiative. And they had people writing into their ballot initiatives because of the federal status, they had written into their ballot initiatives that they need to help other states as you know we move to and prohibition in our states and move to a tax and regulate system. So what I've found as I've reached out to the liquor and cannabis control board in Washington, and the Department of Revenue in Colorado, that these, that these states, these state agencies are opening their playbooks to us and just saying take what you like take what's Massachusetts has a whole division of research and analysis so we know precisely how many people of color BIPOC, our license holders in Massachusetts, they're keeping you know very good data and records to help guide other states. And I was just watching a panel on social equity 2.0, and it was with Shalene title who is the equity commissioner in Massachusetts, and the new cannabis control chair in New Jersey, and the cannabis commissioner in Illinois all talking about social equity and they really kind of say you need to take the kind of umbrella approach which is not just, you know getting licenses in the hands of people have been disproportionately impacted but also really focus on how you're spending the revenue, and really try and use that revenue source to correct historic abuses and again to think very broadly about all of the second and third order impacts of prohibition is had. So it's not a perfect answer to your question but there really is not a one size fits all approach and in my opinion and in my history with this. I didn't get this right, they really do want to help, and you know I've only, I've only been welcomed with open arms by any, any state that I've reached out to. So, we're going to continue to do that. We're allowed to also hire a consultant pursuant to the legislation. I remember it's kind of a small world with respect to consultants on cannabis policy because it's mostly former regulators that you know get picked up by these consulting firms where they start their own. And you know there aren't that many former regulators. So, but we are looking into a number of consulting firms that just have the kind of depth of knowledge and I also, you know, again I reached out to Bo Kilmer, when I first got appointed he was the first person I called and he's the lead search researcher at Rand on cannabis policy. And he once again, you know, gave me an advanced copy I'm probably not supposed to say that of a new, you know, in depth article looking at all of the social equity programs across the state and how effective they've been. And so, you know, and he said that you know he'd be very willing to come to Vermont, I mean zoom over to a cannabis meeting. He said he's probably too expensive for for us to hire but he'd be more than willing kind of on a maybe small limited, you know, appearance to walk us through some of those aspects of the social equity 2.0 and what's been actually working. That sounds great. Thank you. Representative Higley. Thank you, James. I've got a couple of questions. One is on the section of the bill. It's actually section one talking about that March 8 of 2023 deadline for municipalities to sign off on approval for for permitting operations. If not after that time. They're deemed if they don't have that vote they're, they're deemed to be allowing for cannabis retailers and licensures. I have a concern around that I'm just wondering if you were the board has had any opportunity yet to talk about that provision.  We, the board has really been focused on just the technical aspects of getting our board up and running and we're going to start actually dealing with the business of the board in an open meeting, open meeting setting. We've spoken about this piece explicitly as a board, but I can tell you that I divide the bill as 25 into things that must pass and things that could wait. And this falls squarely into something that could wait until next year to talk about, you know, I think what do we have 21 towns that have put this on their ballot and approved cannabis retail sales. You know, for the most part very well geographically proportioned. So I'm not worried about there being a lack of opportunity. When we open up retail shops or when we're looking at licensures, but certainly this is a question that is not does not fall in the category of it has to pass this year. So, you know, that's just, I mean, other people may feel differently, but that's where I'm at. Well, thanks for that. And then the other thing is, I'm sure the board hasn't had an opportunity to talk about this but I think it's going to be a concern in some regards and, you know, the whole issue of certain CBD producers producing delta eight. You know, they pushed the envelope my understanding is a lot of those CBD producers wanted to get in, you know, on the ground level to eventually get into the cannabis market as well. Any any concerns around folks that have that have pushed that envelope early on and whether or not, you know what the consequences are for getting marijuana growing licenses and that sort of thing. You know, I'm, I'm, I don't have a specific answer to that, you know, the hemp program is not going to move under the auspices of the cannabis board. And so some of these questions are going to take some nuance to see whether they're under our jurisdiction or under the hemp programs jurisdiction and but I just I'm sorry I don't have a good answer on that. No, that's fine James I appreciate that but again, you know if they're producing a, you know, a THC product or a chemical process, I'm sure that you know the past are going to cross at some point I would think does something to think about I believe. Thank you. Yep. Representative Gannon. Thank you. And thank you James for testifying today. So, sort of follow up on representative Higley's question but you know a number of individuals and coalitions have come forward with a number of ideas about how to amend S 25. And I just wanted to get your thoughts on, you know, whether we should move forward with some of these ideas in S 25 or because there are must pass sections of S 125 that we want to make certain. And if they're passed into law, they can either wait or be studied by the board down the road. So, for example, what one group thinks that outdoor cultivation should not be in an enclosed lock facility. What are your thoughts on that. I'm getting kind of into the business of the board now. I'm happy to just talk about that in particular, or more generally I should say which is that there's, I don't see us as a cannabis board, delivering a kind of fully mature cannabis regulatory on October 1 2022. You know, I think there's certain aspects that we will definitely have in place, whether you know the kind of youth prevention and the expert and a lot of the environmental and energy standards and groundwater standards but it's, you know, it's hard to think about kind of having just, you know, treating cannabis which is still a federally controlled substance schedule one controlled substance, you know just treating it the exact same as a tomato or a cucumber we just can't do that yet. And it's just not, it's just not something that, you know, it's just not, it doesn't jive with the values of Act 164, and what some of the other states have been doing certainly outdoor grow has a much smaller environmental footprint than, than an indoor grow. And certainly when you're thinking about trying to break down some of the barriers to entry that having, you know, extensive fencing or green, putting up greenhouses or having you know security cameras or locked doors isn't is an added cost. But I think Vermont we've gone slow on cannabis legalization and tax and regulate. And I think that we need to continue to move at the pace that Vermonters want on this so that's, I know that's not a direct answer to your question, but you know I think that it's just the way that we're going to have to kind of think about this and recognizing also that we're about four months behind schedule. And we don't have an executive director in place quite yet or an advisory committee in place quite yet to help us make some of these decisions. Yeah, that's a fair response, especially given what you just said and you don't have all your staff in place. You don't have the advisory committee in place. I mean, there's still a lot of basic things that need to happen. Just one follow up question. There's other things that the board or the legislature considered could should consider about how to help small cultivators especially outdoor cultivators have a fair chance in this industry. Well, the development funds certainly is one of the keys I mean a well financed applicant, you know, is going to have certain advantages that a small cultivator does not and they'll have the ability to make investments and not need to see a return on their investments the way and so anything that we can do to help support the small cultivators in their startup costs and breaking down barriers and ensuring that the local fees aren't excessive and you know anything that we can do on that front to break barriers to entry. And then you know we need to get creative, I think, as a board with our licensing structures and find ways to take some of the more expensive costs and socialize them or democratize them, you know I'm thinking of, you know, testing the facilities and access to those and packaging and, you know, all of the in branding and all the things that that could be acted as artificial barriers to this industry that I think we need to ensure that, you know, people, especially our cultivators have early access to. And then of course, you know, again, I don't see any difference between, well, I see some difference but I think that some of the social equity pieces that we've talked about, you know fee waivers, like for applications or you know reduced licensing fees should apply to small cultivators as well. And because one of the driving principles of this bill and the reason for doing it is to try our best to eliminate or reduce the black and gray markets and try to move as many of the people that are growing illicitly right now into a regulated market. Thank you. Representative Colston. I'm chair. So Mr Pepper, what is happening at the federal level to advance banking in the cannabis industry. Well, so it's interesting it's a changing. It's a changing dynamic, seemingly daily I think, and it's moving very quickly. I think the house has passed a bill that would change the banking aspect alone it would. I don't know the specifics of the bill but it would fix essentially the fact that cannabis is seen as a schedule one drug for the purposes of federally insured banks. So any profits are seen as kind of profits from from drug trafficking. And Senator Schumer majority leader has indicated his support for banking fix. And I know that Senators Leahy and Sanders have been champions of this and I think, I mean listen there's 40 I think it's 43 or 46% of Americans live in jurisdictions that where cannabis sales are legal. So how much longer can we really go with with not fixing the at least at the minimum the banking side of this. Thank you. Representative Anthony. So we're going back to your discussion about a sort of assisting in common business expenses by I think your praise was socializing or democratizing those amongst the new licensees. Another example in Vermont of serious heavy duty market participation is of course the liquor and lottery board and, and commission. Do you sense that either the legislation or the cooperation you might expect through the executive branch would allow you to to or allow licensees to somehow partner because some of the expenses that you just ticked off the liquor and lottery folks have to essentially cope with deal with sign contracts on produce themselves whether it's advertising to transport a container. And packaging, you know all that they have to deal with so I'm just wondering if they aren't a suitable advisor slash partner for some of the licensees as they mature and I guess the question is, is there any obstacle, or anything the commissioner should do to make sure that that expertise and those, if you will, joint needs of businesses could be pulled between the now cannabis market and the liquor market. I had thought about that. And, but I don't know enough about it really and it's funny you should mention them because I'm meeting with Commissioner Delaney tomorrow tomorrow morning to talk about that very issue. So, I guess, stay tuned, we will certainly rely on the infrastructure that the agency of agriculture has put into place in their cannabis quality program. I believe that they've kind of slowly been building up testing facility or testing capacity for the industrial hemp program. So we will be relying on our partners at liquor and lottery and just the expertise in our various agencies. Every turn every step of the way. So yes, I mean, thank you so much for being with us this afternoon committee. We are going to continue our work on this bill over the next couple of days. And it was, it was with intention for us to be able to move fairly swiftly on this that I asked the question about what parts of this bill are going to be passed versus things that we could come back to or accomplish in a different way. And so I guess I would welcome you to ask any other questions that you might have of the incoming chair of the cannabis control board now, because we will hear from a number of other witnesses tomorrow and Thursday. But make sure that that you've had a chance to ask the guy who's going to be right at the center of all of this as it moves forward, because we may not spend much more time with him unless unless there are particular issues that come up. It looks like you have answered everyone's questions so I appreciate you being with us this afternoon, and you will be able to follow along if you'd like and you're welcome to request a zoom invite if there's anything that you would like to come back and and speak with us. I don't know what you're talking about the current operations about, but we know that you also have a lot of other tasks to complete in order to get the, the cannabis control board up and running so certainly don't need to expect you to hang with us the entire time. Well, I just would thank this committee in particular for all the thoughtful work you've done on this bill or that this bill. I think it's a very good product that's built upon years of thinking from legislators and other states so thank you for that and look forward to getting to work with the cannabis board later this month. Excellent. Well, best of luck to you. Thank you.