We're live. The appointed hour of 6 PM, having been reached, I welcome everyone to this meeting of the Amherst Zoning Board of Appeals. My name is Craig Meadows at the request of Steve Judd, Chair of the Amherst Zoning Board of Appeals who is unable to make tonight's meeting, I call this meeting to order as the acting chair. Persuant to chapter 20 of the Acts of 2021 and extended again by chapter two of the Acts of 2023, this meeting will be conducted via remote means. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via Zoom or by telephone. Non in-person attendance of meetings of the members of the public will be permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means. Additionally, the meeting recordings may be viewed via the town of Amherst YouTube channel and the ZBA webpage. Please indicate if you wish to make a comment by clicking the raised hand button when the public comment is solicited. If you have joined the Zoom meeting using a telephone, please indicate you wish to make comment by pressing star nine on your telephone. When called on, please identify yourself by stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. Residents can express their views for up to three minutes or at the discretion of the zoning board of appeals chair. If speaker doesn't comply with these guidelines or exceeds their allotted time, their participation will be disconnected from the meeting. In accordance with the provisions of mass general law chapter 40A and article 10, special permit granting authority of the Amherst zoning bylaw, this public meeting has been duly advertised and notice there have has been posted and mailed to parties in interest. We'll begin with a roll call of the regular members of the ZBA. I'm Craig Meadows, I am here. Phillip White. Present. Associate members of the ZBA, Sarah Marshall. Here. And Dave Slovitar. Here. Also in attendance at the moment is Rob Wachilla, planner and ZBA staff liaison. Rob Mora will be joining us approximately seven o'clock tonight. Any other members that you see on the call Rob? Tony. And I want to mention that you said earlier that Steve Judge who's the chair wasn't able to make tonight's meeting. Yes. The zoning boards of heels is a quasi judicial body that operates under the authority of chapter 40A of the general laws of the Commonwealth for the purpose of promoting the health, safety and convenience and general welfare of the inhabitants of the town of Amherst. One of the most important elements of the Amherst zoning bylaw is section 10.38. Specific findings from this section must be made for all of our decisions. All hearings and meetings are open to the public and are recorded by town staff. The procedure is as follows. The petitioner presents the application to the board during the hearing after which the board will ask questions for clarification or additional information. After the board has completed its questions the board will seek public input. The public speaks with the permission of the chair. The member of the public wishes to speak they should so indicate by using the raised hand function on their screen or as I described the call by pushing to star nine. The chair will assist the staff call upon people who wish to speak. When you are recognized, present your name and address to the board for the record all questions and comments must be addressed to the board. The board will normally hold public hearings where information about the project and input from the public is gathered followed by a public meeting for each. The public meeting portion is when the board deliberates and is generally not an opportunity for public comment. If the board feels it has enough information and time it will decide upon the application tonight. Each petition heard by the board is distinct and evaluated on its own merits the board is not ruled by precedent. Statutorily, for a special permit the board has 90 days from the close of the hearing to file a decision. For a variance the board has 100 days from the date of filing to file its decision. No decision is final until the written decision is signed by the sitting board members and is filed in the town clerk's office. Once the decision is filed with the town clerk there is a 20 day appeal period for an aggrieved party to contest the decision with a relevant judicial body in superior court. After the appeal period the permit must be recorded at the registry of deeds to take effect. Tonight's agenda, the roll call followed by the minutes approval of the minutes for November 9th, 2023 then a public hearing. Public hearing is ZBA FY 2024-07 Gabe Krause's parentheses, Gabe's underground request for a special permit under sections 3.352.3, 5.041 and 5.042 of the zoning by-law to create an establishment consisting of a restaurant and a nightclub with prerecorded entertainment, two patio areas for outdoor dining and a total capacity of 300 occupants. At 23-25 North Pleasant Street, map 14A, partial 50, general business district, BG, zoning district and DRB and MPD overlay districts. Public meeting then will follow the discussion, general public comment period, other business not anticipated within 48 hours and then in adjournment. The first order of business tonight is the approval of the minutes from November 9th, 2023. Has everyone on the board had a chance to review the previous minutes? Are there any comments or edits that are needed for the minutes? Everybody shaking their heads, no. I would entertain a motion to approve the minutes from November 9th, 2023 with edits if needed. Is there a second? Is there a? Who moved? I'll move it. Excuse me. Give me a motion first. I'll second. And a second. The vote requires a roll call. The chair votes aye. Mr. White. Aye. Mrs. Marshall. Aye. Mr. Slovitar. Uh-oh. David, are you on mute? I think he's temporarily away from the screen. Oh, there he is. Oh, there he is. Yes, he is back. He had to settle something. Okay. I'm sorry.  So I'm sorry. What is the question? The question is there, this is a vote for the, to approve the minutes of November 9th, 2023. I read them and I approve. Unanimous approval. Cool. Okay. And thank you for your tolerance. And you, of course. Next is ZBA FY 2024-07, Gabe Krause's, Gabe's underground 23-25 North Prospect Street. Prospect Street? Sorry, that's a typo of my part. It's Pleasant Street. Yes. North Pleasant Street. Thank you. So it's 23-25 North Pleasant Street. Correct. I live there for many years. The petitioners are in attendance, Mr. Chair. Deal me to promote them or is there anything else you want to announce beforehand? I think we just need to have members sitting on the panel are myself, Mr. White, Ms. Marshall, Mr. Slobotar, Mr. Judge, who is absent tonight will use Mullen's rule to rejoin the panel on a later date. If this involves reviewing meeting materials and watching the video recording. Okay. All right. Are there any disclosures? Okay. The following submissions have been received by the town staff, ZBA FY 2024-08 application, ZBA FY 2024-08 management plan, main floor plan, occupancy load and seating plan prepared by Ristram Walker Metcalf, the third, dated 10, 16, 23, updated 12, 4, 2023 and 12, 12, 2023. Sign renderings, gaze underground menu, outdoor seating cut sheets, outdoor lighting paragraphs, outdoor lighting nighttime comparison, awning lights, nighttime comparison, design review board recommendations, design review board FY 2024-07, article four decision, Hazel's blue lagoon, comments from other town departments, Amherst police department received 12, 13, 23 and Amherst fire department received 12, 13, 23. There was also a site visit on Tuesday, December 12th for PM. I wasn't able to attend the site visit myself with one of the other panelists who did attend, please give a brief update to the board. Who would like, David, go ahead. Okay. Philip White was there, Sarah Marshall, Steve Judge and I were there. We got a tour of the interior of the building. We saw the two sides of the proposed restaurant and nightclub. We walked through both, we saw the connection. So we have a very good sense, I think, of the physical layout. We also went outside and got a, I believe a very good understanding of how they, of the physical characteristics of the building that they will need to address for outdoor dining seating and also access to both the club and the restaurant. So we were there for an appropriate amount of time and the applicants were, I think, very cooperative and forthcoming and we got a good feel for what is in all the documentation. So it was a very positive site visit. There were some questions that came up during the session. Hold on, Craig, I'm sorry. I would just add a couple of things to what we talked about. Some controlling on the nights when both the nightclub and the restaurant are open, controlling how patrons move back and forth and when the nightclub is closed, but the restaurant staff still need access to the kitchen, just how they're going to prevent people from going into the closed nightclub and also about managing, well, just how they're gonna manage patrons moving back and forth or leaving the building. Thank you. Great. I see there were some questions that came up. Have you got the applicant on board with us? So I can promote them right now. So applicants, if you are listening, please accept this panelist's invitation and you'll be able to be seen and heard. Hello. Hello. How are you? Welcome. I'm gonna unbler the background. There we go. Very good. There were some questions which I can, during the site visit, they were brought up. I don't know if you heard them, but let me state what they were and then why don't you give us a presentation to tell us exactly what your intentions are, okay? Okay. Can you please state your names and addresses for the record, please? Go ahead. My name is Andrea Hunter and my address is 142 South Long Yard Road in Southwick, Mass. I'm Gabe Kraus. My address is 252 Elm Street in Westfield, Mass. Great. The questions that came up during the site visit were, will access to the kitchen be primarily from the restaurant side of the business? The second question was why have a separation between the restaurant and the nice club use? And thirdly, would you clarify the hours of operation for the restaurant and nightclub? Would you consider having two sets of hours of operation posted? Okay. Oh. Yes, Rob. Just wanna clarify, there were a bunch of questions that are asked, but these are the questions that weren't addressed by the materials that you submitted to us for review prior to this hearing. Just wanted to further clarify that. So I didn't mean to interrupt. You can go ahead and continue with your presentation. Okay. Do you want us to talk about the general, the general plan for the business or answer the questions first? Why don't you talk about the general plans, give us an overview and then afterwards you can answer the questions. Okay. Did you wanna? Go ahead. The general plan for the business is because, I mean, you saw the space, it was, we're gonna have one side be, it's gonna be the restaurant, the laid back side where people can eat and they can drink, they can watch TV. There will be two pool tables in there as eventually at some point we might wanna add a pool table at some arcade games, but for now that'll be mainly the eating, relaxing, playing pool side. There's a hallway that goes over to the nightclub side that will be where people can order food, they can order drinks and on specified nights, there will be music played and so that's the general synopsis of the business. The questions, okay. Number one, the kitchen, the way the building is set up, the access to the kitchen is from both the nightclub side and the restaurant side. And for most of the time, the kitchen will be accessed from the restaurant side. We would wanna separate the restaurant from the nightclub because on slow nights, which could be Sunday through Wednesday, there won't be enough patrons to, as we gather from experience that on those nights, unless there's some kind of special event, on those nights, there won't be enough patrons to really make good use of the other side with the nightclub and to have enough staff for it to make sense. So let's see. So we would wanna have a door closed at that separates the two spaces to discourage people from wandering around to the other side if there's no staff over there. Question number three, the hours of operation are more detailed in the management plan. It's on, let's see, towards the end of the management plan. I think it's page six or five. The hours of operation will be Sunday through Saturday, roughly 3 p.m. to 1 a.m. And I'm sorry, you had a question, Sarah? You're muted, Sarah. I'm sorry, if you're at the top of page seven, hours of operation, I think you mean Saturday to Sunday. It's those two nights that it's open three to one, right? Not Sunday through Saturday means a whole week. Yes. Well, we plan to start out, we plan on being open every night. Oh, really? Oh, okay. Yeah, if it turns out that it's, that there is not enough business on certain nights like a Monday or a Sunday, for example, then we won't be open those nights, but really to start out, we're gonna try to feel out how things go. I see. And so the initial plan is Sunday through Saturday. Okay. 3 p.m. to 1 a.m. And Sunday through Wednesday, Sunday through Wednesday, the nightclub side will be closed. There will be signs in the door. David, you had a question? Yes, I think as I'm looking at it, that the confusion is that you did not in the management plan delineate that the Sunday through Saturday, you're referring to just the restaurant side. Oh, okay. Or am I not getting that? That's why I was confused. I thought you were talking about the nightclub. So yeah. So it seems that the Sunday through Saturday is the restaurant side. You're going to be open seven days, which is what you said yesterday at the site visit. And the Wednesday through Saturday reference is for the nightclub side. Okay. Is that right? Yes, you're correct. Okay, okay. Thank you. So Thursday through Saturday, we're calling those busy nights. The patrons will enter through the awning side. That's the address 41 bolt would walk. There will be signs on the doors. Basically two main entrances, one on the restaurant side that will be accessible Sunday through Wednesday. And then one at bolt would walk under the awning, which will be accessible Thursday through Saturday. But there will be signs on the door just so that people, the patrons will understand where they should enter. The main reason with that one entrance, the double doors, it'll help us control the crowd as they come in through that door. We can ID everybody, check for weapons, drugs, et cetera. When they exit, that'll be the one exit. As long as there isn't an emergency, we have specified emergency exits, but those double doors, that'll be the one exit. So that way we can also monitor for anyone trying to leave with drinks or any type of items that we don't want leaving the premises. So that way it helps with the controlling of that aspect.  Yeah, it sounded like you said patrons would enter the restaurant through the restaurant door only Sunday to Wednesday. Sorry, do you mean that when the nightclub is open, restaurant patrons have to go through the nightclub to get to the restaurant? Yes. Yes. So there's only ever going to be one entrance operating, no matter what's open. Is that the case? Well, in the management plan, Thursday through Saturday, 6 p.m. until 1 a.m., patrons will be directed to enter through the awning side. Right, even if they're headed to the restaurant. Yes. So there will only be one operating entrance, no matter what is open. Yes. Okay, got it. Thank you. David, you had a question? That was essentially my question. So when only the restaurant is open, you can enter through the side entrance directly into the restaurant. But when the club is also, when both are open, your patrons will, if somebody has absolutely no intention of going into the club at all, they will still enter through the club, and then they will pass through that connecting door to the restaurant side, which will have a staff person there to monitor that movement. Yes. Right? Okay, thank you. That's so we can control, was that capacity? Oh, yeah, that's how we can control the capacity and make sure that we don't go above 300. Keeps the confusion down, is if we have two entrances open, one person might say, oh, we've had this many people and the other side might say, well, we had this many people now and now we're kind of lost with, we don't wanna be going over our designated capacity that way. But you have specific capacities for each part, each side. So it's not just the total, you need to know how many are in the restaurant. Yes, ma'am, yeah. Okay, but another question, if everyone's entering through the nightclub, even if they want to get to the restaurant, so you're gonna let under 21s in there. That's, we don't have to, on those hours, it would be because there's accessibility to that side, to the nightclub side. I would, I'm gonna refrain from letting under eight, I mean, under 21, and just for that purpose of avoiding someone and getting mixed in with the crowd. So if a family can't go to the restaurant if the nightclub is open? It's essentially yes, because it's more so geared towards, on those nights, we're gonna have a lot of college students and it's just, it becomes an atmosphere that, I've never, like me personally in Westfield, we've never had a family come in. Once the nightclub is open. Yes. All right, and I'll just maybe to talk more about later. Yeah, absolutely. Someone said earlier, you need to post the hours of operation in two different places, but that's gonna be misleading because you can't get to the restaurant. You know, it's hours, but some hours you enter here and other hours you enter over there. So that's just something to flag to work. Absolutely, we can post those on the doorways that way. It'll at least help any alleviate any confusion. Please go on. Did anybody have any more questions? I have one, if that's okay. Mr. Chair, is it okay with you? Yes. Just wanted to check. No, so thank you for being here. When we're on the site visit, I know we did discuss kind of ambient noise that might come out of the building, affecting the neighbors around here briefly. I stepped away for a second while you guys were speaking, I apologize, but my logic for that was I stepped away so I could hear the conversation of two people that were just walking by outside, outside the doors. So kind of my concern is if I can hear every bit of a conversation that's going on on the other side of the wall to the exterior of the building while there's a conversation going on inside. Like I said, as you guys know, for someone who's designed many bars, several nightclubs, I do worry about the effect of the noise from the nightclub site. So my understanding is that this has been, I mean, this has been the way this bar has been run for, before COVID when it was club lit and also during Hazel's Blue Goon tenure. My understanding was that at the time, they probably didn't have anything that like a soundproofing type of setup in there as it was, I was kind of had a discussion with the chair. He was asking if it has to, if it needs to meet the code, will we be able to soundproof those walls? But it wasn't kind of brought to my attention from the landlady that we were gonna be required to soundproof just from the past ownership of the bar in the past, I think, you know, before COVID and then post-COVID. Do you have a question? Yeah, but I thought you said that you took out interior walls. I mean, you took out, I don't know, was wallboard or whatever against the exterior walls. So it may be it's less soundproof now than it was. And Rob can speak to that, you know, there's the noise regulations, that's part of the building code. Is it, I mean, it's not up to the landlady, it'll be up to the building commissioner, right? So it's actually in the zoning bylaw that if they have live or prerecorded music, it can't exceed 70 decibels from the property line. And that's if, you know, they're measuring with a sound device and whatever ambient noise, if they're standing at the property line with a sound device and they're measuring above 70, then that's, it goes against the zoning bylaw for that specific use. And usually, you know, some people will do mitigation tactics such as putting like an interior wall, the special material that's sound absorbent. Also keeping the doors closed during like peak hours when you're not having as big of a crowd in the line. Usually your door is gonna be open from like, you know, beginning of the night when people will start going in during the opening and towards the end of the night when people are leaving. Obviously you're not gonna have music playing as much during those times, but and as we've seen with other applications, usually they'll keep those doors closed unless people are coming in and big numbers. But yeah, that's what regulates the sound mitigation and that's the reason why the board members bring it up so much is because other permits in the past, they were proposed that are similar to yours. They had to comply with those sound regulations as well. Okay, so the, it cannot exceed, the sound cannot exceed 70 decibels, you said? Yep, from the property line. So not sure specifically where it is, but I would say a good rule of thumb is if the doors are closed and you're standing at the parking lot and it goes above that, that might be problematic. But if it's below that or at 70, then you comply with the regulations. Okay, so if someone were standing outside at the parking lot. Well, we see the property line. It's on the plants, right? I mean, haven't we? It is, but the entire property's owned by, or most of it's owned by a gradonico who's the landlord, which I believe was also called Lincoln Ave Realty or something like that. But they own a lot of those buildings and the parking lot is technically owned by the town. So that's kind of the parking, that's kind of the property line from where they're gonna be. And that's a good place to sort of judge it. And that's where the police are gonna be judging it too when they get noise complaints. They'll stand there and that's where they're gonna measure from. Then that would be the solution is when the DJ is setting up is do a test of the sound from that point, I would say probably at the point where the, that little kiosk is located. The parking kiosk. Right. Yeah, that'd be a good spot. But also, you know, you could always just do, before you open, some people will do like a test and then have like a standard volume that they'll set it at and just stick with that from whenever they have live music or pre-recorded music at the establishment. So it's just one of the things where you have to test and see which levels work for you. Sarah, you had a question. I didn't want to. I would just say, and maybe Rob, you may know some names. There are sound engineers, sound consultants who can look at your plan and look at the way the place is built, I think. They could recommend a good material for your wall. Yeah. Because I know you took down that wall originally that I was covering the brick. So if you're putting in new wall, this engineer will give you or some sort of specialist can give you a good recommendation for material that you can use to muffle the sound. Like as a soundproofing tactic. And of course, you know, we don't recommend installing anything before you get this permit. I mean, it's always best to have an idea beforehand to know what could go there and what could work for you. And yeah, that's pretty much it. I mean, there was another business who recently got a special permit for the Spoke Live. Chad O'Rourke is their owner. He had a sound company come and do some investigation for him. So they recommend a certain material that he could use. They even recommend replacing some of his windows and doors because he had a lot of windows and doors in the building that he occupied with a material that's better at containing the sound than what was originally there. And of course, you know, if you're interested, I could provide you with that company's information if you want to reach out to them. Yeah, that's pretty much all I had with that. It sounds as though that's one of the recommendations we're coming up for this, Rob. Okay, I'll definitely do that then. David, you have a question? You're on mute. You're on mute. You're muted, David. Unmuting makes it much easier to ask my point of order question of the chair. I'm, I just want, am I correct in assuming that everybody on the panel has read all of the documents that we got and therefore we're familiar with this application? Are you, are the applicants going, are they in the midst of a presentation or can we ask questions about any part of the application at any time? I don't want to divert what you're doing. But I just want to know what the flow is for this hearing so that I don't get in your way if something is on my mind. I would like them to finish their presentation before we start asking any more questions. I agree, good. So do you guys have anything else you want to talk about with us to, I guess, explain your business or talk about how you're going to manage it or there were some questions raised about screening of trash receptacles, deliveries of bar goods, restaurant goods, maybe talk about how your kitchen's going to work, like any of that stuff. So regarding the trash and any debris that's left outside, we'll have bouncers designated to cleaning up those areas throughout the night and especially right at the end. We have a couple of barrels that we'll use to kind of store our recycling and separate our recycling from our general trash. The trash will be brought to the Kellogg Street, the corner where that dumpster is. 17 Kellogg's. 17, yeah. As well as any oil or grease that we have, there are barrels next to that dumpster as well. Regarding the kitchen, we have a kind of a baseline of what we want to start with. Myself, I'm not a chef, but I also, I do have some contacts that we can start working on putting together a more intensified menu, but for now, I want to keep it simple, fried food ranging from chicken tenders, mozzarella sticks, french fries. And burgers. Wings, we can do burgers. Those items are a definite. So, and that will be accessible the entire week to the public as they come in throughout their time. The staff is going to be trained. First of all, the bartenders will be trained with a tip certification that they will be required to have a tip certification, which is a tremendous resource. If you've ever taken that course, it's actually pretty good, very thorough and informative. They will be trained to, you know, watch out for signs of intoxication. The bouncers that otherwise known as security staff, they'll be, everybody will be trained for crowd management. I know we only need two in a situation of 200, you know, with the 300 occupancy, we only need two crowd managers. But if they're all trained for the crowd management certification, then we don't have to worry about making sure so-and-so is on duty because he's the one certified. They'll all be trained and work in conjunction with each other, making sure that if there's something going on on one side, they will communicate with each other from a different side of the establishment. So- And all of this, in general, the business as a whole will be monitored by our manager that we selected. I believe some of you met her, her name's Reese the Chase. I don't know if she was able to, Rob, I don't know if you were able to maybe invite her on to the, if you wouldn't mind. I know she does. She has some good input because she's gonna be the frontline manager of everything. And that's Reese. Yes. So, Reese, if you wanna just give your insight and your input on how you're gonna operate, you know. Yeah, so I will be there as manager of our bar staff. And as far as training is concerned, upon application, they do need to provide us with a tip certification. They will also be trained as far as bartending, serving in general, specifically by myself or Gabe, or both. And what were the other questions just so I can address what we are looking for, Gabe? So they just kind of how we're gonna go about, I guess the handling of patrons, going through each side, if we're having, if we have a night where it's, we're very busy, how many staff, like I would say we'd have a bouncer on every door, making sure we have a bouncer. Yeah, so as far as security staff, like Andrea said, everybody is going to be fully crowd control certified, but the rest of them as well, they are all going to have the ability, they'll know how to use a scanning system as far as IDs are concerned, as far as placement in doorways, that's one thing that we actually really excel at, at least in our bar in Westfield. We do zoning with everybody, so everybody is responsible for their zone, so whoever will be put on each door, whether it be an emergency exit, the entrance, the transition door between the restaurant and the bar, just so that there's clear communication between physical entrance and then the transition point to, from the bar or nightclub area to the restaurant slash bar area, just so that we are able to control each sides, because there are two separate capacities. And the nice thing about the setup too, is that those folks that do want to enter the restaurant side, we have that straightaway just ramp that goes up into that transition door, so it will make the setup of bouncer's security a lot easier just in leading them into that direction to make sure that they're counted as capacity over on that side. And then the bartenders as well, very aware of capacity, how we need to be staffed based on a, what we would consider a busier night, slow night, we've already made decisions on how it's going to be staffed on each side, and security and bartending. Is there anything else that? I was going to add to that race. Bouncer's are not just willy-nilly walking around, like just, oh, I'm just over here now. Every single bouncer has a specific job, they have a specific spot to be, that's how we operate in Westfield. It keeps a confusion rate to a minimum. It, it's almost like a zone defense in a basketball court. You have, one bouncer's going to be in an area that requires you scanning IDs and you do that job, you focus on that only instead of, you're trying to watch a whole bunch of people and scan IDs, it gets confusing. So we'll have that implemented as a big deal for our staff. And then were there any questions about management or, yeah, Rob? Is it okay if I ask a question, Mr. Chair? Yes, well, let me, let me ask if they're done with their presentation. Yeah, sure. I believe we've covered everything. Okay. Okay. I go ahead, Rob, I have a couple of questions. Yeah, sure, mine will be quick.  And also you don't see zone defense in basketball outside of college basketball these days. That's, you don't see that in the pros. Yeah, that's how I college band myself, so yeah. I was going to ask, so say you have two different bouncers who are crowd control or crowd manager certified at each entrance at the side of the business, right? You have the restaurant side, one guy with a clicker there. Main entrance, nightclub side, another guy with a clicker. So for the sake of comparison, let's say that the restaurant side is occupancy of 80. And then the nightclub side is occupancy of 120, right? So say you have people coming in, you decide that people can go towards the back or sorry, to the restaurant side. And then the restaurant side gets up to 80. And then the nightclub side gets up to the 120. So now you reach full occupancy in both sides. So I guess my question is, when you reach full occupancy in the restaurant side and the nightclub side, how are you gonna get people out of the restaurant side? Are you gonna have them come back through the nightclub side or are they gonna be instructed to leave through a different exits? So that's if- As far as the exit, just exiting the establishment is concerned, are you asking? Yeah, yeah. So if you reach full capacity in both sides, how are you gonna get people out of the restaurant side? Because they're gonna have, from what you've told me they're only gonna be able to go in out that one specific entry way, which happens to go through the nightclub as well. Am I correct in understanding and assuming that? As far as entry is concerned, absolutely. The on-inside, as far as exiting is concerned, and just because we are going to be staffed in order to do so to maintain our information as far as capacity is concerned, I think using that side door right gave was the option for the exit out of the restaurant. So that way we are able to have a clear visual of that door from the transitional door because we are capable of doing that in that capacity. So that we are able to communicate back and forth, okay, we just had a patron exit from the restaurant door. That exit part is not the problem over in that door. They just can't enter over there, but they have multiple exits if they need to go through the side or and they'll be instructed if they try to go through the back and we are at capacity, they'll just be asked to leave out of the side door. My question is similar to that. I would assume that there will be people who come to the restaurant who want to then go to the nightclub and may order, I assume also that you have food service to both sides, is that correct? Yes. And then if someone comes to the restaurant side and wants to move to the nightclub side, are there, would their food be brought over? Did they have to reorder? How are you going to manage that? I would assume that if they were eating on, if they had ordered food on the restaurant side and they were eating it, they'd probably want to finish it before they go over to the nightclub. Unless it's filling up on the nightclub side and then want to make sure they've got a table. That's a good point. Am I going into other establishments like that and then said, could you please move me over to the other side or to wherever it may be? We can assist them in that capacity as long as the, you know, back to the word capacity, as long as the capacity wasn't too much or, you know, at capacity and there was enough room for them to get over there. I would assume... What we could do is communicate between the kitchen staff and Reese as well. If someone orders something and then they end up on the other, we can instruct them. If they do go to the club side before say their order is ready, we'll ask them to stand, at least stand over by, you know, that corner of the bar and where the entrance of the kitchen is, just so that, you know, we can keep the description of them the same as it was and also, you know, we'll have their name and just to kind of avoid that confusion so that they're not just standing somewhere crazy, you know, we'll definitely keep them informed so that way they're not getting lost. Are you also thinking that you might have live music at some point? It was... It's a possibility, but... Way down the road. Yeah, because we haven't had much success with it. Unfortunately, it's kind of... From what I've been seeing, it's starting to fade away and at least down in the Holy Oak, Westfield and West Springfield area.  Rob does their petition, which says that they're gonna use... They're not using live music. Does it need to be changed at all? No, so basically the accessory uses they're applying for, there's two of them. They have the outdoor dining, which the one patio area in the alleyway outside of the restaurant entrance, and then they have the live and prerecorded music. So it's kind of in that same category. So there's nothing they have to do, but I would recommend conditioning where if they want to do live, in-person performances, so like, you know, have like a band or something like that, that's... You know, you condition that, that they have to come meet with the billing commissioner to make sure it doesn't do like a substantial... It's not like a substantial change to their management or something like that, but yeah, nothing they have to change right now on their end. Okay, Sarah? Yeah, a couple of things. I have the impression you didn't want people to move back and forth between the restaurant and the club. So the suggestion that you can order on one side and go hang out, I would think that just makes tracking the capacity a lot harder. You could consider saying, look, if you're going to the restaurant, great, finish your meal, exit, come around, re-enter, you know, or otherwise you're gonna have to be adding and subtracting people moving back and forth. And maybe I misunderstood. I thought you didn't wanna do that. My other question is about exiting from the restaurant. We haven't talked much about the outdoor dining part of that. If that happens, like even at 10 o'clock at night, I don't know, maybe it doesn't, but you've got a couple doors, is one basically in and out for the patio dining, but then there'll be another one for just exiting the business. Because you don't wanna have people exit into the patio dining, I don't think, if they're done with their meal. So I don't understand how exiting will be different from going to the patio to eat. There would be somebody who would show them to a patio table and monitor that door. We would have security staff at those doors to assist with any, you know, exiting or entering when it comes to the patio. Because those doors lock from the outside, if you exit the doors lock and you can't get in unless someone opens it from the inside. So if a patron wants to use the bathroom, they have to knock to be let in. It can be unlocked as well. Okay, are you going to have some kind of fencing, some kind of boundary around the patio area? Yes. Yep. Can people enter the patio area directly or do they have to go through the restaurant? They have to go through the restaurant. All right, so then back to my other question. So then when people are exiting, leaving the restaurant, they're using a different yet another door that doesn't go out into the patio or they'll be stuck there. Right, it's not going right.  So you have a second exit. Yes, there are three doors on that side of the building, all on that wall. And the fourth doorway is on the other side under the awning. So yeah, if you look at the floor plan, you'll see that there are three doorways under the overhang. Right, right, excuse me. And here are the plans right here. Just give everybody a better perspective of what they're talking about. So dad here is the outdoor dining. This is the alleyway. This is the overhang, the hash line. Tables here. So I'm assuming exit, exit, then exit right here that goes into the hallway between the bar and the restaurant down here. So it seems like according to this, the tables are right here for one of these two windows. Are you proposing shifting these tables to one of these two entryways and then having a fence or a screen area around it and then leaving the other side to be an exit for those coming out of here? Yeah, the fence, so to speak, is going to, it's going to, if you see, maybe I should share a screen. You can if you want to. You actually, you do have screen sharing capabilities if you want to take over. Let me see if I can get the map up on my screen. Oops. Okay, bear with me. Okay, I'm going to screen share. Okay, can you see my mouse? Yep. Okay, right about here, we would have a fence that comes out and then come around this way because we can't block off this passageway. The fence would come out here and down, and actually this table would have to be over on this side. The fence would come out here, go around and down to this area so that these tables are blocked off and then this can be passable to the patio. Okay, I'm going to stop sharing now. Mr. Slobinar. So I am not trying to change your business plan with this suggestion because I have no personal interest in running a nightclub or a restaurant, but it seems that the source of a lot of the questions and confusion is the link between the two sides of your operation. If there, I would just throw out a suggestion to you that perhaps if there is a way to essentially operate them as two separate entities where there is an entrance to the restaurant side, it'll be easy to control the capacity on the restaurant side and an entrance to the nightclub side. If you don't have to go through the nightclub side to get to the restaurant, you don't have to monitor who's coming into the nightclub and then leaving to go into the restaurant. Do I add them to the nightclub capacity and then deduct them because they went into the restaurant? And then you can control easily, I would think, the movement between the two entities. So if you have the physical setup in place where you can operate the restaurant and have access to the restaurant when the nightclub is closed, so nobody is actually walking through the empty nightclub space to get into the restaurant, then perhaps it would be helpful to consider operating the restaurant that same way even when the nightclub is in operation. So it would eliminate a lot of the questions that we are asking, I think, based on the link between the two operations. I know I'm a bit confused about how you would know if you're checking somebody in through the double doors, how do you absolutely know that they went into the restaurant unless you're constantly monitoring the capacity in the restaurant and deducting it, you'd have to be a math major to pull that one off when it's really busy. So that's just an observational suggestion. I'm not trying to redo your business. I'm trying to eliminate confusion on our end. Thanks. Are there any other questions from board members? Sarah? So the dumpster, as I understand it, it's the one, it's like behind Mexcalito. It's almost right on Kellogg Street.  You have to go through the parking lot and basically in the road to get down to that dumpster. So that's gonna take somebody away from whatever else they're doing for several minutes.  Is this, you can hang onto it through the whole evening and then just take one trip at the end of the night? Absolutely. Is that the case? Okay. Yeah. We have at least one barrel with wheels, a giant barrel with wheels on it that will be used to bring the trash down. Yes. To build on off of what Sarah said. So this, I guess we'll call it temporary dumpster, right?  Is that gonna be stored in a like conspicuous place? So like, is it gonna be like around the corner where nobody can see it? Or is it gonna be like at the employee entrance that's like kind of not visible from the alleyway or from the street? Or is it gonna be like out in the open where people can see it? So we're gonna have one smaller barrel that has wheels that will be able to be the kind of inside the restaurant and nightclub trash barrel. You know, we'll have a bouncer or a barback, most likely. Barback will collect all the trash, you know, throughout the night. Once that fills up, he'll throw it the trash from that barrel into the bigger barrel. That bigger barrel should be able to hold at least two to three bags of that smaller barrel's contents. And then that bigger barrel will be stored in the area where those showers are and those lockers that I think I showed someone briefly. I think you might have seen it. That will be the area where we'll store the trash since customers won't be able to access that area at all. Yeah, that's just for the night. It's not meant to stay there for a week. It's just until we close up operations for the night and then it can be removed. But that whole space back there is not accessible to customers. Those rooms as well, well, the showers will be utilized as storage for, you know, beer bottles. The companies that quality distribution and commercial distribution, they collect the empty bottles that we save and we get credited for those bottles. So we save those, but any cardboard boxes will be broken down and kept in one of those shower rooms. And then, you know, at a certain point, we'll, you know, myself, you know, we'll transport it to the transfer station. Okay. So I guess one thing I recommend to the board, Mr. Chair, before we continue is that you place a condition where at the end of each night or at the close of business that they have the trash removed and put into that dumpster. Just so we don't have trash sitting inside for I would say more than a full day. And the zoning board does have the authority to condition that, just a heads up. That was like a good idea. Mr. Wright. So I'm just trying to actually visualize, when you talk about a trash barrel, are you speaking about like the standard restaurant round 44 gallon? Yes, sir. That are on wheels? Okay, cool. Yes, sir.  With a cover. Well, so the 44 gallon barrel, I believe they do come with covers. That one is not the one that will be wheeled out to the parking or to the dumpster. The bigger one has, it's basically what you see and it resembles something you'd see around city streets and residences that have their trash picked up. So it's big and durable. And it'll just be easier for us to carry at a farther distance with the bigger loaded trash. Yeah, cause that was my question because having seen people struggle to empty those 44 gallon ones, I phone around many a keg in my life, having to hook them up, but those things can be very cumbersome. So that's why I just wanted to check. Yeah, absolutely. Sarah. Yeah, can you say more about the empty bottles that you're saving? If they're around for, if they stay in the building for more than a night, do you clean them first or they stored in something with the lid? Cause I would think that would attract. Yes. So they'll be inside the cases that they arrived in and they'll be stored in their own separate area. And we'll rinse them out and clean them out as we go through the night. Everything's poured out just to mitigate the fruit fly factor. Yeah. Can I also ask or say, go back to early in the discussion, you talked about how you may want to put a door to close off the nightclub when it's not open. Given that you have a full bar over there, I would think you'd definitely want to be able to lock that and keep people out of there. And I would think we might want to require that. Yes. No, so, you know, why your employees or anybody just going in and helping themselves or whatever. No, absolutely. So we'll have that door will be only accessible by the staff. There won't be any reason for anyone, staff included other than race or myself to go over on that side when it's only the restaurant operating hours. So just because we have everything we need on that restaurant bar side, alcohol, food related, entertainment, that's, and we'll keep that door. I was thinking probably just have a key if you want to go in and out of that door, we'll keep it locked and the person that can go in and out will be the key holder. On the same thing, it's also directly accessible from the kitchen, of course. So do you want to lock that? Yes. Also, okay, thank you. Yep. Are there any other questions? Mr. Slovitar. Mr. Chair, is this an appropriate time to bring up something completely different than we've been talking about or? Is it still related to this issue? It's not related to trash. No, it doesn't have to be related to trash. Okay, okay. I have thoroughly read your management plan and I actually find it credible and reasonable and accept almost all of it, except for one section. And that is the emergency section on page six. At the beginning, it says that the access to the business would be, could be from North Pleasant's... Oh, wow. What high tech person did that? Okay, so the fire department can access the business from North Pleasant Street through the alley next to Antonio's Pizza or the Boltwood parking lot. Obviously, the Boltwood parking lot is wide open. To call the passageway next to Antonio's Pizza an alley is pretty generous, in my opinion. It is the width of one large Antonio's Pizza box, which I have actually carried down that alley with no more than an inch to spare total on the width. If you can carry a box horizontally, but if you hold it on the side, your knuckles will be bleeding for days. This is a very narrow space. And I question whether a fully equipped firefighter could even get down that space. It is a difficult space to negotiate. You can't possibly pass another person. So if there was actually an emergency, I don't believe that that is a credible access to the club. And I'm bringing this up because if I'm right, and I might not be, so perhaps I'd love to see a fully equipped firefighter try and dash down that alley that passageway. It means that almost the only access in the case of an emergency is through the Boltwood parking lot, which raises, that doesn't mean that's not a game changer really, except that it would make it necessary to have a really good plan to control the people outside waiting to get in and how you deal with that little courtyard area outside if there would be an emergency. Nobody expects an emergency.  So you just never know an emergency plan is to deal with things that nobody sees coming. So the reference in here about directing people, I just want to raise the point that this needs to be carefully considered. I don't consider that passageway to be an access, a suitable access to emergency services and that your staff will need to address the flow of people in that courtyard area outside the double doors. So that's the only part of your plan. Everything else I thought is actually really well done. And I applaud you on how you're addressing everything. But I'd like to see the emergency plan a bit better defined, please. I think I can say, speak to that very clearly. When we had the Yellow Sun Natural Food Store at the top of the alleyway, all of our storage was in the basement at the end of the alleyway. And I have carried hundreds of 50 pound bags on my shoulders in my arms up and down that alleyway many, many, many, many times. So I will say that a firefighter going down that alley is not a problem. I am so happy to be wrong that it's not a problem for me. That's fine. If it's not a problem, it's not a problem. I'm not trying to make it a problem. I just know, I don't know how you carried 100 pound or a 50 pound bag of something when I struggled with a pizza but you're more manly than I am. It's not an issue. I was a lot younger. 50 years younger. Rob. I just want to, he does bring up a good point, but also I am reviewing the transmittal from the fire department. And in terms of access, they didn't really express any concerns from their end about getting to the site. They only stated that the Knox box and the fire department connection are both on North Pleasant Street in front of the building from the North Pleasant Street side. So they were kind of just stating where it's located, but they didn't really highlight any big concerns on there and about getting down the alleyway. I'm assuming they'll probably pull the truck around the parking lot area and have one guy just run down with the connection hose to go to the fire hydrant. Sarah. So David's comment has me thinking that it might be wise to include in the plan or at least please consider this, that if patrons have to be evacuated, they are not allowed to go into that alley because that would be a terrible place to have a stampede or people jammed up, especially if fire personnel are trying to get down. So that the bouncers would know you go towards the parking lot, and you cannot go into the alley. Good idea.  Greg, I have an entire list of newfound admiration for you between twisting your way down the alley and carrying all that weight. I will never walk down that alley with the same mindset again. So I... We will not ask you to carry bags of grain. Thank you. I did want to comment. Now that we're talking about this, I'm remembering there's a wider alleyway. I believe it's off of Main Street. That might even be a better access for the fire department. But yeah, I think it makes sense to be very specific about the evacuation plan, especially if they're patrons outside. The benefit we have in Westfield is that we have one entrance in the front and then we have an emergency exit in the back.  I mean, we have all those doors that people can, you know, in case of an emergency can exit through, but it does make it easier when we have... We have a larger parking lot behind us as well in Westfield. And then in the front of the bar is Elm Street. It's the main drag through downtown. But that being said, having the accountability of making sure everyone is out will probably have bouncers making sure that they can clear each room, you know, that there were customers in and work their way forward towards the doors so as to make sure we're not forgetting anybody in case of, you know, there was be a fire or something of that capacity. Any other questions? Rob.  But if he's nearby and able to speak to this, I was hoping he can give some general, I guess, background or guidance to the applicants in terms of soundproofing the nightclub portion of the business. And I guess resources they could consider if they wanted to pursue that further. Rob Mora, if you're on, would you be able to speak to that? So, yeah, I haven't been in the building recently, but there's certainly are techniques that, you know, could be used depending on the scope of work that's going to be done to help with soundproofing. I did look at the building permit record and it looks like we've only issued a permit so far for some selective demolition of the stage area and the walls surrounding a room over on the restaurant side. But if work was to get more involved, particularly on the outside walls, there certainly are techniques that could be used to improve the sound rating and the transmission through those walls. And we can, you know, we can assist the applicant if they get into that. Well, if there aren't any other questions, we can solicit general public comment. So I am not seeing anybody in attendance, Zero. I think we scared them all off during our conversation. So I don't think there's going to be any public comment, Mr. Chair. Okay. If there aren't any more, any public contents and entertain a motion to continue the public hearing for ZBA FY2024-7 to an additional date when Steve judges back to assist in finalizing everything. So I guess- So I guess one thing to consider is, I guess first we should probably tell the applicant what we need for the next meeting, right? Do you want me to go through that real quick? Mr. Chair. Okay. Yeah. So just general sense because the board doesn't feel this application is fully complete yet to just pending this review today to move forward with approving yet. We recommend that you clarify the hours of operation for each side, for the restaurant side and the nightclub side in a way that's more understandable in your management plan. You start exploring soundproofing mitigation. Of course, if you want us to work with you on that, you could definitely reach out. And then also it wouldn't hurt to include sound mitigation strategies in your management plan as well. And that could also include keeping your doors closed within certain periods of time when you're open. I would say address the issue of reaching full capacity on both sides of the establishment and how you're gonna safely exit people when you're at capacity from the restaurant side because you had mentioned that people would come and go through that one entryway that connects the two buildings but you also mentioned that people could also exit one of those emergency exits on the restaurant side. So I would say having a more clear plan for that would be helpful as well. Talking about what on nights when the nightclub side is closed, it would be helpful to have an idea of whether you're gonna keep that door locked that connects both the restaurant side and the nightclub side. We might need more clarification on that. And then you would want to include in your emergency management section of your management plan, preventing how you're gonna prevent patrons from going down that alleyway that goes towards North Pleasant Street in the event of an emergency. So you don't block emergency access for the fire department to get there. And then one thing I'm gonna add and include for the next meeting, Mr. Chair, I was gonna make a map that shows the proximity of the closest fire hydrants to the building so we can kind of get a general idea of where the fire department could hook up in the event of emergency to give a better perspective. And that's pretty much it. In terms of dates, Craig, you're gonna be gone early January. Could you remind me when you're gonna be back when you were absent? 15th of January. 15th, okay. And Mr. Judge is leaving on the 18th of January. So that makes it tricky for meeting time in January. So we have the 16th and the 17th as a possible date in January. Otherwise the applicants are gonna have to wait until early February to hear this matter again before the board. So I don't know if the board members feel okay with something like that or what the group is feeling. I see Sarah has her hand up. I will not be able to meet on Tuesdays, generally speaking, once I'm on school committees. There is a meeting on the 16th. So Craig. I'm happy to meet on Wednesday the 17th, if that's... 17th. How would that work for you, Craig, Wednesday the 17th? Because Steve Judge said that Wednesday the 17th could work for him if able to meet that day. Let me check my calendar. And do other board members have an objection to Wednesday the 17th of January to continue this? I'm fine with it. Okay. Oh, my mistake. Actually, no, nevermind. Sorry, 17th is good. Mr. Judge will be gone on the 18th. So Craig, are you going the 17th? The 17th is good. Okay, so I recommend to the board that you continue this hearing to January 17th at 6 p.m., which is a Wednesday. This board typically meets on Thursdays just so the applicant can come back within the reasonable amount of time. That's not too long. And they're able to do the changes that the board requests of them. You have a motion for that? So moved. Second. Anyone? Sarah? Second. Go for it, Sarah. And I did. Good for you. Okay. So then the vote occurs on the motion offered by to continue the public hearing for ZBA FY 2024-7 to January 17th. Yep. 2024. 2024. Yep. There's a motion in the second to approve we need a unanimous vote of the board. Chair votes aye. Mr. White? Aye. Ms. Marshall? Aye. Mr. Slovitor? Aye. Okay. All righty. I don't believe it's going to be an owner's task for you to get this stuff done within this time period. And we appreciate your coming in for us and look forward to the nightclub and the restaurant. Thank you. Thank you. All right, have a good night. Take care. Good night. Okay. Next we have, if there are any other issues that are not before the board this evening. So did you want me to give my update for scheduling now Craig or wait till after general public comment solicitation? Why don't we wait until after the general public comment solicitation? Okay. Okay. Are there any public others? Is there anyone even on the public? No, there is. Okay. So not too much public comment. They don't have to wait too long. No, you won't delay any longer. That was not exciting enough. No, apparently not. All right, I'll, I guess I can give a brief update on the schedule. Yes, please. Yep. So next Thursday, December 21st is the, oh my gosh. I think we're on the fourth meeting now for the 40 Bs. And then the following Thursday after that, December 28th, we do have a ZBA meeting scheduled. There is a public hearing, but it's for a modification to an existing comprehensive permit, North Square, the Coles project. So basically they have existing commercial space that they're trying to change the tenant for. Right now, it used to be a retail, but they're trying to get a photography studio into that space. And unfortunately, the permit is conditioned to where they have to come back at a public hearing each time to get that, I know to get that approved, but the funny thing is they're also requesting to get rid of that condition or changes so it's done administratively, as opposed to a public meeting. So save them time and money. And then after that's, we have a meeting on January 4th, which Mr. Meadows, I know you can't attend, but that's for the 40 B Valley CDC project. That'll be the meeting in which we discuss waivers and conditions with the applicants. We get after that, January 11th, will be a normally scheduled meeting, but we don't have anything on the books for that date yet. 18th of January, sorry, 17th of January, we have this hearing continued. The 18th, we don't know if anything's gonna happen yet on that date. And then the 25th, normally scheduled meeting, nothing on the books. But since I have four people here, I wanted to ask in terms of December 28th, I know that's between Christmas and New Year's. And I know today Hanukkah is almost over. And so far I have Mr. Sloveter and Ms. Greenbaum who are willing to participate as well as Mr. Judge at December 28th meeting. Since we only need at least three panelists because it's a 40 B, as opposed to four, which you need for special permits. Is there anybody on this call that would be available to serve on that panel for December 28th? Is that a yes, you could, Ms. Marshall? Okay, cool. Mr. White, Mr. Meadows, Ms. Sloveter. Well, Mr. Sloveter already said yes, but you're probably busy. And Phillip, I'm assuming you're gonna be busy too. Wait, busy with what? I am gonna be busy, but if you need me, then I would be. 28th, 28th of December. Why can't you do 28th? I know you can, I'm asking other people. Oh! Oh! Sorry, Mr. White, would you say it before you cut off? Yeah, no, I said, yeah, I mean, I will be busy around that time, but if I'm needed, I can move stuff around. Okay, yeah, so for now, I'll just keep you on the bench. And then I'll ask other people if they're available. Sarah? So I wanna go back to January 17th when we're talking about the 28th. So I don't think we have anything else to discuss. I mean, I know Phillip is maybe... I just wanna say if there might also be a meeting the next day on the 18th, could just those projects, if there are any, just be pushed to the 17th and not have the possibility of two meetings in a row? Yeah, we could. So that's a good point, moving the scheduled meeting one day early. We just have to advertise it a week beforehand, just so people know. But yeah, that's definitely possible. And I think Steve will be okay with that, seeing that he's gonna be gone the next day on the 18th. So yeah, that'll probably be the best move. Thank you for bringing that up, that's a good suggestion. And that's all I have. Okay, if nobody has anything else, can I get a motion to adjourn? Don't move. There's gotta be a second. Okay, second. Somebody be brave. Okay, we have a second. Okay, in that case, the motion is not debatable and requires a roll call vote. Chair votes aye. Mr. White. Aye. Ms. Marshall. Aye. Mr. Slovacher. Aye. We are adjourned. Okay.