Hey look at that it worked everything is falling into place so we got a couple of minutes before we actually start the show any last-minute questions concerns did you try to just bring one of those hot plates out and start selling street meat to the snapchat spectacles line man I should have there were plenty of other Venice Beach denizens out there performing selling hawking things do people still hawk CDs you know I didn't see any CDs I still saw books though yeah well listen if you are in line to spend $130 on a product that will not last throughout the year definitely have some some income willing to burn it's not like a shirt no this thing will last this thing will certainly last for far longer than than the snapchat spectacles well definitely yes I hope I hope all right I'm gonna hide all righty it was actually described to me that it does kind of look now the more that I look at it it does the pattern does look like a Dixie napkin that's I don't know whether or not that makes me very happy or very sad people pay big money for that I oh Roger I want to make sure you see there on line 13 is the video that I shot of the snapchat line I imagine you would already notice that but I just want to make sure you know all right we ready yep let's do this here we go quality content thrives through the support of those who benefit from its creation if you gain value from the Daily Tech news show consider joining others like me who provide support learn how to help at DailyTechnewshow.com slash support this is the Daily Tech news for Thursday November 10th 2016 I'm Tom Merritt joining me today as he does on most Thursdays Mr. Justin Robert Young of the politics politics politics weird things night attack among many other podcasts has gone Justin and veteran of our of our eight hour live coverage is it eight hours in the end I didn't do all eight hours but but you went wire to wire with it I went wire to wire with it you were there for the vast majority of it and I was very excited to have you there with us obviously a historic night for many different reasons as I'm sure many smarter and wiser and more daring people have enumerated between then and now but I'm very happy to be back to normal talking about techniques yeah in fact we are going to talk about an election not the presidential election but there were several ballot initiatives regarding municipal networks and we're going to bring Chris Mitchell director of the community broadband networks initiative at the Institute for local self reliance you can find his work at muni networks org on the show Chris thanks for joining us today yeah hey really talking about this issue good day yeah good to have you back Chris is going to be kind enough to hang out and talk some tech news with us so we'll get to talking about those ballot initiatives in a little bit first you should know Google's new daydream VR headset went on sale today and a new YouTube VR app came along with it by the way if you're a fan of cardboard those cardboard apps need to be updated before they'll work on daydream VR they don't just translate right over blizzard is making overwatch available to try out for free the weekend of November 18th is an incredibly popular game and they just I guess they want it to be even more popular I don't know now here are some more top stories snap incorporated which is the name of the company that makes snapchat now has started putting out vending machines to sell its one hundred twenty nine dollars spectacles product spectacles is a pair of sunglasses with a video camera designed to be used with snapchat it doesn't do live streaming video it just takes snaps use a credit or a debit card at this vending machine and then you get to choose black coral or teal spectacles first vending machine appeared in the Abbott Kinney area near snaps headquarters in Venice Beach they call the vending machines snap bots and they're going to move it to a new location each day so far this one in L.A. is is the only one that's out there well you know I think the biggest thing that when you look at what's happening with these spectacles is you're going to compare it in success to Google class right like that's that's the biggest thing that we're going to think of when we see whether or not this is a success or a failure right that's the natural comparison absolutely and if that's the case then I think they're making a very good decision they are effectively restricting access to them to the point where they can announce any number and we're going to say well all right that seems like people have spent money on it right now there are gigantic lines to buy them out of these vending machines and Tom you did a little shoe leather on the ground reporting for this yeah I figured oh you know what I live not too far from there I'm going to hop in the car I'm going to take a little gander at this vending machine maybe I'll pop a hundred twenty nine dollars out of the old patreon funds to try one out first of all their map would not let me zoom in so I did it at home it worked fine but when I was on my phone for some reason the google map they were using would let me zoom in so it took me about a half hour to find it there were some snapchat folks out on the street giving directions and then once I actually got there that line was a couple hours long it went in through the parking lot around the corner and down the street so you had to figure out where this thing was go find the right parking lot and then stand in a huge long line and people are doing it how many spectacles do you think were in that box well I wondered about that okay so this thing is about four or five blocks from snapchats headquarters I imagine they know exactly how many are in that box and then if they were going to get to a point where there was running low they just run back to the mothership and refill that thing pretty quickly so you think you think you think Evan Spiegel has like a gray shirt a gray button-down shirt with his name on it that uh he just like I'm sorry guys opens it up with his little skeleton key and throws a more hold on there folks let me let me just refill the old vending machine yeah I have no ideas out the loose change thing puts it in a burlap sack goes back to the HQ it was purest hubris for me to think oh I'll just wander up and stand in a short line and get one of these nobody you'll know about it because this is the the silicon beach area right where snapchat is so of course yeah it had everybody who was interested in these things out to get one let me ask chris if you were nearby would you have stood in a line to get these spectacles oh definitely not um you know my biggest question was what they if they had like a ton of the black ones sitting in there and they had to replace just one of the other colors you know I'm very curious um what the if people are willing to settle after waiting in line that long or if they um you know if they said no I'll come back tomorrow and I can get the color I want not only come back tomorrow but try to hunt to find where you move it tomorrow uh because my guess is they're going to move it over to like Hollywood or Beverly Hills or somewhere like that and I'm curious if these things are going to start showing up in other cities as well I would I would guess I would I would certainly guess that they are and and just to compare to a google glass did for those who don't remember they almost went the exact opposite sure you had to uh apply for a program right so they artificially restricted access that way but once you had the opportunity to buy them they gave you almost like a luxury car experience where they let you sit down and they would give you the beer or soda of your choice they would have somebody walk you through all the features they really really really wanted to explain to you how you use them this seems like a smarter gambit for snapchat wherein they say listen buy this as a novelty we're selling it out of a a vending machine uh and then if you like it you like it but they did not give these unless they correct me if I'm wrong they didn't give these to tech bloggers they didn't give these to tech wrench they didn't give these to the verge they're just saying no no no we're connecting directly with our audience and if you have a hundred and thirty dollars burning a hole in your pocket come on down and wait in a line to come get you know that's a good question I have seen some bloggers talking about using them but you may be right that they didn't get to keep them they they may have gotten to use them in a controlled situation to try them out uh big jim was asking earlier if it was tech journalists in that line I didn't recognize anybody but at the time I was like no I think they probably got them sent directly to them but maybe they didn't I mean maybe uh I think I saw some uh some some uh line reporting by by uh Ashley Esqueda from uh from CNET but other than that I think those were the only two you you and her were the only ones I saw uh in my twitter feed reporting in line I didn't actually see her out there that's that's funny uh all right uh tell us uh what instagram is doing to imitate snapchat today did they come up with their own minion looking vending machine not quite instagram added three new features Thursday to its snapchat like stories function users can now add links that open a page within the app on a C more prompt you can type app replies for up to 10 accounts that can be tapped to open uh the user's profile and the ability to add one second looped boomerang videos to stories without having to leave the instagram app links is only available to verified users right now meaning you would assume that they are more ways that you can modify brands and celebrities that want to push branded content yeah it seems like that uh I think the app replies is just a way to give shout outs to people maybe expose folks uh to some more discovery options the boomerang thing is the most interesting to me because that is something that is entirely different from snapchat uh and it is something that instagram has as a separate app and in fact if you want to put a boomerang video in your main instagram timeline you still have to go to the boomerang app make it and then import it into instagram whereas if you want to put it in stories you just pop it right in so that's a little bit of an odd implementation of it do you want to know what this reminded me of is that we were talking last week or two weeks ago when twitter shut vine down that the question is how does vine just get shut down and not at least before that fold it into twitter that you can just slide you know in the options you have to shoot video a vine is is one of them or maybe the default option and this to me because instagram has done a few of these apps between the time lapse and boomerang these standalone apps that you can then fold in that may be the smart thing for instagram is whether you're not seeing the growth that you want in these apps in particular maybe fold them into the main product before you just shut them down yeah do you use instagram for much chris yeah i actually do sports photography for the university of minnesota some other clients i run a small business actually that that deals with it and my biggest problem is that i'm just you know it's hard to go from my computer to instagram and i have to like put it in dropbox and get it over so i tend not to use it as much but i i regret it um you know for me the the long term the issue that i have with these products is that i just get frustrated they have to they have this person they have to keep growing right like i love twitter i love using twitter but there's a sense that it has to conquer the world or die same thing with vines and and with instagram at least they have the backing of facebook so maybe we won't have that issue but you know that's the issue that i see is that it feels like i can't get used to any of these tools because they either have to change or they're going to disappear either way you can't have any constancy yeah we talked about that a bit that that's sort of like can anybody make a successful business model and maintain investment with a sustainable audience instead of a growing audience uh paypal's not one of them though they want to grow they want to make more money they're updating the ios app to let people use siri to send and request money in 30 countries so once you get the update you just tell siri hey send $50 to justin robert young uh or you can say hey request justin robert young uh give me $50 for the pizza that i bought him that's a really expensive pizza uh you'll have to confirm your identity with touch id before siri will actually move your money around so somebody can't just pick up your phone and start willy nilly sending money uh by talking to siri and the recipient of the money or the person you're requesting it from must have an email address linked to paypal and that email address has to be in your context so useful in a world where everything is going the way that paypal wants it to go but still something that is probably a little ways away from being ubiquitous it is interesting to see that paypal is taking touch id very seriously right now anybody with touch id uh can uh log into their paypal account from their browser after they have already logged in on touch id without a password so this is something that they are using as kind of a soft sort of like not two-factor identification but at least something that isn't just uh entering words or type into a browser which is very interesting to see yeah i'm excited about things like this because i feel like to some extent we're moving into a future with a lot more ai and after reading some of ann lecky's books about ancillary justice ancillary shield all that sort of thing um you know i'm much more excited about the idea of having someone i can just talk to and have them do things and to the extent that we have these discreet advances i you know i i think these are very limited but it also gives you a sense of how easy it will be hopefully in the future to do things and maybe it's the old man in me talking but uh you know when when someone invoices me on paypal i'm probably not gonna pay him back through siri you know i'm not i'm probably not going to pick up the phone and say you know send that eight hundred dollars to the the sync company uh but for informal stuff like like the pizza example i could absolutely see this being a regular occurrence that sort of thing seems to be more of a venmo uh area right now and this is more yeah yeah yeah this is them getting into millennial money absolutely uh all right uh but yeah sorry speaking of uh the millennials and the apps that they like to use uh android police says the most recent beta of whatsapp includes a protection mechanism against clone phones hijacking your accounts whatsapp refers to it as two step verification when enabled whatsapp will prompt you for a six digit static password when registering your phone number with whatsapp an email address will be used to reset the passcode if forgotten the system prevents whatsapp from being activated with the same phone number unless the passcode is entered so yeah you know this is not the normal two-factor authentication you think of where you log in with your password and then put in a separate code from your phone device this is specifically to prevent someone who has cloned your phone number getting access to whatsapp this is not a situation most users of whatsapp are going to encounter in their daily life that someone's actually cloned the phone and trying to get access uh to their communications but whatsapp also you know long before others were starting to implement it was doing end-to-end encryption so whatsapp trying to stay on the edge of we can make your messaging as secure as possible uh this is also kind of the future of messaging as a platform which i think has cooled a little bit from the the rowdy go-go days probably three or four years ago but certainly is very big in asia and in other emerging countries where there's not a tremendous infrastructure for stuff like transferring money and and stuff like that uh this is something that they need to do this is security is something that they have always taken very seriously and it's heartening to see that they are still thinking uh in this world about how to do that most effectively so the idea is if someone were to to gain access to your phone account maybe they do a little social engineering uh and they've got a cloned phone and they install whatsapp and they put in your credentials and they're like ha i've got access to your whatsapp account this will pop up a six a prompt for a six-digit password if you don't know that password the only way to recover it is to have it sent to an email address that you're under control so to hack in they'd not only have to clone your phone number but they would also have to hack into your email chris is is this something i don't even know if you use whatsapp at all but is this something that you are concerned with yeah i'm i'm very concerned about all of this and i think that those of us who were concerned about the implications of government spying um when obama is in office or many of us are more concerned now and so i'm glad to see uh more of this but for me the problem has always been you know whether i'm using signal or whether i'm using whatsapp or anything else is that we can't all agree on anything and um you know sort of the issue of standardization and being able to be cross-platform and secure which is quite possibly not going to happen adobe announced thursday it's getting into competition with the big boys in advertising it will buy video advertisement company tube mogul for five hundred forty million dollars dobby plans to include the ad buying platform in its digital marketing unit that unit currently offers customers things like analytics and social media management and now it'll allow you to buy some video ads and place them in various places this will put adobe as i mentioned in competition with google facebook and twitter in the video ad space kind of wonder why tube mogul was not snapped up uh by by one of the i do not know enough about this story to say whether or not this is a high price for tube mogul uh and that maybe it was just too rich for the blood of facebook and google but you would think this is a natural buy for either of them that are so right now invested in finding every inch of that online ad sales market yeah i i i look at it and i think maybe facebook google even twitter didn't feel like they needed tube mogul and they just uh they knew they could outcompete it so rather than buy it for tech or for employees uh they hoped for it to just kind of fold and maybe pick it up as a bargain and what adobe has done is say hey it got to be a bargain enough for us that we're going to add it to our move into this space and listen when everybody in the mom wants to get into video content these days uh from from the old and stodgy to the new upstarts it is not a bad bet to make uh on wednesday twitter announced that chief operating officer in our adam bane is stepping down and anthony notto will add the coo responsibilities to his current cfo title twitter will look for a new cfo in the meantime bane resigned september 7th but will stick around for a few weeks to ease the transition hey that sounds familiar uh he joined twitter from fox interactive in 2010 and not oh joined twitter in 2014 from golden sacks so uh you broke up uh seventh uh he resigned in 2010 noto joined twitter in sacks uh sure what to make honest it does in house do you think live the way twitter is you want somebody from fox interactive but maybe what they're saying is uh i'm sorry um mr bane but you are not doing the deals that we need and we're going to find somebody who can i mean that that's that's the tail of twitter right you know that they they are just not where they need to be and they are in constant flux for it it does not shock me that people under uh the top leadership are now starting to slough off and you got to just i mean again this has been the story of the year for 2016 uh in in tech is just what will happen to this company well it's also interesting i mean how many people that they have now doing dual jobs um you know is it to be a top executive there you have to have multiple jobs at this point uh yeah right exactly uh the cost saving maneuver just double people up yeah absolutely uh well thanks to all those who participate in our subreddit you could submit stories and vote on them on daily tech news show dot reddit dot com uh and in fact our main story today came from the folks there thanks for submitting and voting uh so colorado has a law called sb 152 was passed back in 2005 that says in the interest of statewide uniformity of regulation uh cable telecom and advanced service 256k broadband is what they define as advanced service cannot be provided by a local government uh either directly through a joint venture or even a leaseback arrangement unless you meet one of the following criteria now the first criteria is there's no commercial operator providing the kind of service you want to provide within the boundaries of your municipality could be a city could be a county uh an incumbent has been asked in writing and no service agreement has been reached in 60 days or if there was an agreement no service has commenced being provided in 14 months the other way you can get around this is to have the voters opt out uh so the voters would have to approve a ballot initiative to opt out of the state law and say no we do want our local government to provide this service uh before today 69 municipalities had done so and then as of this past Tuesday 26 more so bringing the total to 95 have added uh or have opted out of this law that includes it most recently places like aspen and golden colorado which you may know from beer commercials the other the other interesting thing here is all 26 passed by an average of 76 yes votes the lowest was about 55 percent the highest was around 85 percent but most of them were in the the high 70s whether they're a traditionally conservative or liberal area doesn't seem to matter it looks chris like like people definitively would like their local governments to provide broadband service for them well that might be a little bit too strong of a statement um i think what the way out interpret is that um they want their local governments to be involved um so before local government can even make plans they have to basically pass this because otherwise you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars developing plans for something you're not allowed to do so what we see is local government's passing this and then contemplating a partnership building their own network or even in some cases doing some very interesting things like steamboat springs where they have made a low cost investment to basically bypass the telephone company that had the only route outside of town so that you have basically a little carrier hotel in this community so they could have some competitive choice for getting out of town on fiber basically there's all kinds of things that are happening frankly it's incredibly exciting um and the interesting thing is when you say municipalities it's worth noting some of those are actually counties and so 45 of the counties in colorado have opted out and some of them are doing pretty interesting things even in very rural areas so this is something that i'm very very interested in because i have always seen uh these situations and thought well there's obviously a corporate protectionist oligopy oligopoly when it comes to providers right and very often that comes by way of making it very expensive for any perspective competitor to come in and and and put any kind of physical thing down in the ground it's made many people think that the only way that you're going to get real competition is if there's some sort of new over the air sort of uh providers so in general although i thought that municipal internet is you know kind of underwhelming at times this seems like a way that cities are trying even though oftentimes they're the ones that are being protectionist to kind of break their own stranglehold on this kind of development well you know i don't it's so complicated there's so many different ways to respond i've seen a lot of arguments that cities are the problem and when you trace back those arguments they almost always come from the incumbents and and and the the groups that the incumbents fund we call them sometimes coin operated think tanks that put out these papers and they have economists attached to them but local governments don't control polls in most situations the polls are controlled by either the electric company or the telephone company electric company doesn't want anyone to bother them so they make it difficult to get on the polls to put fiber up the telephone company doesn't want anyone to compete with them and so they make it very difficult what's interesting is even if they don't own the polls they have attachments on the polls which sometimes have to be moved for a new company to come in this is the biggest issue that google fiber had dealt with and and then they can delay it 30 days 60 days you can just drag it out and so local governments are generally blamed for this because it's happening in the right of way but it's not something that local governments can really control now local governments can have bad permitting policies they can charge you know too much they may have an onerous or they might be claimed that they have an onerous franchising some do most don't in my opinion but i think local governments are generally scapegoated by incumbents who are looking for any excuse not to to do this and that's why we see around the country so many local governments trying to figure out how to bring competition um because they haven't found any other way of of doing it do those uh yeah go ahead justin well let me say this one how much do you think the success of municipal broadband over the last let's say five or ten years has made this something that local governments want to spend political capital to promote and push well i think a lot i mean i think you know so you talk about municipal broadband most people think about chat nuke and chat nuke is an incredible story and there's others that are just really great like sandy oregon and a number of others that have showed up in more local issues like if you're in a state you're more likely to know about them than you are someone else that's successful but really i think google fiber i think google fiber credit really credit for this because i think it's not about just municipal networks they're trying to figure out how to get a gigabit they want to have much better internet service they want to have competition and that sort of thing and i think for many of them municipal broadband is their last choice i actually think it tends to work out well enough that local government should be getting involved prior to it being their last option but fundamentally local governments typically they just really don't want to get into this so it tends to be their last option i think it's driven by a sense of you have local businesses and residents that are saying we need something better we're frustrated especially local businesses that are about to leave town because they can't get good enough services so that's why most local governments get into it but i think there's so many benefits when they do it right we try to educate them and get it higher on their priority list so you know i could tell you it's amazing and everyone should do it that's not what we say but the reality is most local governments do it because they feel like they don't have any other choices at that point and i think that's the key for me uh because w scottis one in in the chat room says uh this is my you know libertarian leaning but i i don't want the government involved in this the problem is the government has been involved in it for 20 to 30 years so it's a mess and and i think that's what's interesting to watch happen here is because maybe they had some franchise agreements uh back in the 80s when cable was coming in and they put in some restrictions they made it in the right of way and then the companies that own the polls as chris was just describing don't want people either messing with their equipment uh or or or competing with them and so they make it difficult and then 21 different states have put in laws uh after advocates uh from isps like comcast and quest and at&t said we don't want municipalities competing with us so there are there are laws to make it difficult for governments to get in uh and so it's very confusing because the government is involved by saying you can't do this the government is involved by regulating the right of way uh and yet with all of that being confusing and a lot of uh opportunities for fud you've got 75 percent of of colorado citizens in most cases saying you know what you're not doing anything to improve the problem we're not getting the internet connectivity we would like we need it for our businesses we need it for our schools we need it for our homes so yes let's let the government try to figure out let's free the government to figure out the best way to do this and when it's voter approved when you've got the community behind it like that then it's not the government doing it it's the community getting involved in it well and and it's all it's also hard to make the argument that uh introducing any kind of competition has not made the actors that are currently in that city better and more responsive to the community when google fiverr came in if there's one thing and listen it took google lighting a gigantic pile of money on fire and obviously it has not shown the return for them because they are scaling down that program and trying to figure out what they're going to do with it going forward but at the same time the results are there every comcast got better AT&T got better the speeds got faster and the prices got lower if you look at chat nougat which in the last 10 years have as microwaved themselves into an east coast austin in terms of being a hub for you know culture and youth and entrepreneurship uh the the the results there when it's done well has shown that it is it is worth the time and money and i am certainly somebody that like w scottis one has more of a libertarian bent in terms of understanding what the government should be spending uh their coin right and you're not alone in that i mean if i actually thought local governments would be able to run existing carriers out of business i would not support it you know i have i really don't like comcast and AT&T but these local governments are basically making them work for their money they're not and at a risk of driving them out of business you know i just wanted to note that you know we say we don't want government involved well let's think about that for a second AT&T owns a bunch of poles if AT&T can do whatever it wants ain't nobody going to get on those polls so government has to be involved if we want competition and i think the question is how it should be involved the federal level i don't want them building networks i agree i'd like to see them doing some antitrust to try and break up monopolies and things like that um you know at the state level frankly it may be a little bit of middle mile connecting towns but not doing residential or business services at the local level i think different communities should make different choices you know my community i wouldn't necessarily wanting them trying to do what Chatnuga did but Huntsville well Huntsville built out this fiber network and it's open to multiple carriers including google which has had this partnership with them that model is really is taking off more and more and i think that a lot of libertarians even support that where local government is doing the infrastructure and then allowing independent providers to compete over it and even in korea what they did was not provide the infrastructure but just made the rules so that you couldn't stop someone else from rolling it out and in many places you'll have in a building three or four fiber operators running redundant cable into that building to compete with each other but they made the rules such that it was viable for them to do that and when you have laws that say the government can't even get involved in that they can't lease back they can't regulate they can't do anything to encourage it all you're doing is reducing competition yeah i think so i mean there's always going to be some kind of rules and the question is always are we going to have good rules for and if so good rules for who and and we want to see good rules for those of us that want access yeah i thought it was interesting looking at the google fiber situation and how a company with that much cash and that much influence is now transitioning from we're going to roll out fiber to cities to we're going to investigate wireless backhaul which is better for multi-unit dwellings yes and and at&t is doing that i think we're going to see a lot more of that and you know some people have claimed google fiber is sort of folding up shop and going home i think that's it's confused you know and and the other thing is that they're not going to wireless which has sometimes been reported because they recognize there is no wireless product for single family homes that will be competitive with cable and i would say that i don't see that on the horizon either so the question is if even google with all of its resources is struggling to make a good business case competing with Comcast in these cities well then who's going to do it because i think we all agree that we want to see some kind of investment and that's where i think you know cities can do it and that that may not even mean building fiber frankly um Lincoln Nebraska incredible system of conduits leading to a local provider being able to fiber to the home there's there's frankly a variety of things and local governments should be picking something that fits well with their culture with their situation um and and and hopefully i think some these companies like ting google fiber and others will be looking for more cities to be leasing assets from so cities should be creating those assets today if they can't find someone to lease them well then they can figure out how to become a service provider themselves if that's something they later decide to do yeah even if you live in a smaller community maybe especially if you live in a smaller community you might want to get involved with the local government to say hey what can we do to make this happen remember it's there's there's 39 states well wait no that's 29 states that don't have any laws on the books preventing you from doing that right and even well just briefly even those states that have barriers they're not insurmountable in all cases there's smart people that want to do something can find a way to make smart investments to make life better all right real quickly a couple messages before we get out of here uh we have one person who wanted to remind us and the rest of the dtns audience that as the holidays approach it's a good time to donate to child's play through one of our writers favorite fundraisers desert bus for hope at desertbus.org this is the 10th year and promises to be one of the best of course desert bus is the game where you uh you just have to keep your hand on the controller to keep the bus from going off the road as it drives between arizona and las vegas it's from an old pen and teller game uh but yeah sega cd sega cd pen and teller sega cd game uh uh you you are going real time and the bus will always i believe list to the left or the right uh so you need to be you need to be constantly adjusting and of course when you make that trip you get one point yeah so thank you ken hill uh keep an eye out for it desertbus.org uh josh wrote in and said i wanted to share a very interesting discussion i managed over here when i was going to see dr strange this weekend the google pixel ad came up on the screen at the theater and the wife of the couple sitting next to me exclaimed that's a pretty phone what device is that to which the husband said oh that's a samsung galaxy as the ad closed and it said the phone was made by google she asked him the same thing and he said it's a samsung galaxy made by google uh just wanted to share that experience with you samsung and android are pretty synonymous for most folk and i expect android to maybe be impacted with this whole note fiasco i know it's probably old news uh but it was a really funny conversation so yeah i could have things with the note conversation but also just in general uh and people think android is android uh it's all samsung to them i guess and listen remember this was the big worry for uh google that samsung at its peak probably two or three years ago was going to fork android into their own operating system that they would brand by themselves this was a huge worry for them and one that has seeming to have a metaphorically and physically gone up and smoke and then key wrote in and said i live about three hours north of sydney australia and the two stores that had the nintendo classic mini in stock target and big w advertised them to go on sale on november 10th they sold out within 10 minutes and 30 minutes respectively target being the smaller store i'm now seeing them being resold for at least three times their value on the internet i'm hoping nintendo restock soon and doesn't make this scarce thought that might be of interest that didn't you know i gotta wonder yeah i gotta wonder what the market for for nostalgic consoles is because i i have to say i i would be interested i might subscribe to your newsletter yeah uh and they're just going to get more and more right because we're starting to move into the era when the consoles proliferated and competed and so there's just even more nostalgia to be had i'm just going to go and play bomber man nice i mean that's the thing it's like every every every generation has its nostalgia trip and for you know people that are a little older than us if if all they ever want to do is buy that first car that they ever bought that they felt was so good or that they coveted when they were 16 or 17 maybe we will are i'll recreate our youth and i will be buying a retro sega genesis playing altered beast well into the night well chris michael thank you so much for joining us today uh if people want to find out more maybe they want to talk to their local officials and they want to be armed with a little information where should they go to brush up on municipal networks yeah muni networks.org videos fact sheets reports all kinds of stuff and uh we're constantly sharing information on twitter at community nets excellent uh thank you again for joining us today yeah thank you for having me justin robby young what do you got going on before we get out of here oh man i'll tell you what i think i might be a little plugged out but i i can say that uh you can still go to the contender dot us and use offer code election if you would like to get free shipping over the next day or so we're leaving that open just so some stragglers can get in there and make sure you sign up for our mailing list that we're going to have some great black friday deals coming up in the next few weeks excellent thank you to every single person who supports this show it's why we do it because you want us to daily tech news show dot com slash support is the place to go if you want to know how to do that you can find out all kinds of information from bitcoin donation to paypal to store where we sell some mugs and t-shirts and things like that and of course the main way we support the show is patreon.com slash dtns thanks to david bailey who just joined the group of folks who support us welcome him amongst you all of you who support us we thank you very much patreon.com slash dtns again uh roger chang putting together our best of show if you have a segment that you remember from this year that you're like that was the one that's got to be in that best of show let us know at bit dot l y slash best of dtns our email address feedback at dailytechnewshow.com we're live Monday through Friday 4 30 p.m eastern at alphakeekradio.com and diamondclub.tv and our website is dailytechnewshow.com we're off tomorrow for veterans day in the u.s so check out daily tech headlines for the news and then we'll see you monday with Veronica Belmont talk to you then this show is part of the frog pants network get more at frogpants.com diamondclub hopes you have enjoyed this brover all right good show cool have a good one absolutely thank you chris appreciate it yeah thank you and anytime you got any telecom chatting you want to do let me know we'll do good to be back all right take care take care um all right guys i'm actually gonna have to duck out early here too because i'm crashing my uh my friend's hotel room down here in downtown austin so uh i will see you guys later sounds good thanks man talk to you soon have a safe trip all right peace out we'll do showbot.tv if you want to take a look at the headlines and uh roger's gonna jump back in here in a second vend me some glasses siri us money can you hear me now i can okay uh top of the list is vend me some glasses followed up by siri us money third comes with oh what tangled laws we weave when we first protect the isps the spectacle of snapchat follows up uh then we have the glasses snap full colorado once for right to lay cable uh that's expensive pizza this that's an expensive pizza youtube is daydreaming i think we used that before the pole dance it's clever i feel like that's come up before i don't know if we used it uh municipal rules isis pole dance isp pole dance it's more clever when you read it than when you say it yeah maybe chuchu internet daydream believe vr we've done that one before i think i do like dark redeemers oh what tangled laws we weave when we first protect isps but that might be too long it's super long it is definitely the best of of what we got here though yes um so what if we changed the pole dance to colorado's colorado's pole dance no not feeling it no siri is not your paypal add obi from fred get it add obi like adobe is it that it's the deus capitalized no nothing there no all right why don't we just take out oh and just leave it as what tangled laws we weave reduce it by two oh what a tangled web we weave you can't can you really get away without the oh okay okay when we protect it what if we took out first when we protect isps i'm just trying to find a way to be less character count heavy oh uh w scott's one says uh is uh oh what tangled laws we weave for isps it's a variation of his what do you think of that one how well that's a variation from w scott's one yeah oh what tangled laws we weave for isps yeah i like that let's do it thank you scott's one darker deemer and w scott's one with the assist that has been chosen and now i wait for level eight oh everyone's doing a little uh what else is going on roger apparently ashley iskada did try to stand in line to get the spectacles but they ran out of stock and then apparently they restocked later if i could have got there right when everyone was leaving the line because they were out of stock could have swooped in what do i got going on i don't know honestly i'm still asleep i'm still under uh i still have a little sleep deprivation so my cognitive functions are a little slow why are you not sleeping is it the baby yeah she's been uh not sleeping well ever since tuesday the baby has been not sleeping well since tuesday so that's tuesday night i it is but no i'm not saying it's because i'm just starting a tuesday she it's been off and on for a bunch of weeks but like starting tuesday it's been all it's been pretty like yeah i'm trying to figure out if it's more heating issues if it's the heat because it's been unseasonably warm in san francisco for november typically you get your indian summer around october sometime in october and starts to cool um measurably like mid november and it hasn't yet and i don't mean freezing but just noticeably cooler and it's still roasting in my place yeah i got up to 90 here yesterday ah you have air conditioning at your new place that you're moving yes all right good i gotta figure where i gotta replace the filter on it they have a ducting into the same duct as the uh central heat which is weird so it literally goes into the side of the heater like the vent for about that unusual i think we had that in my house growing up till the raccoon got in and then there was just fur all summer fur flew all summer long illinois illinois illinois illinois-y i'm not sending some people are trying to troubleshoot the uh sink issue uh but there's nothing nothing to be done that's not gonna work get rid of that oh yeah good video no i'm just reading uh reading uh like why trump won and all the other stuff why are you doing that to yourself because it's on twitter the other social network stop just stop it's you're just you're just confusing yourself because i'm not confused i'm just warm and uncomfortable everyone's got a theory and that's totally it i've counted 10 so far i mean granted they're all variations on similar concepts my own theory but i won't divulge it because i'll get a lot of people angry coming around the train and i can make people angry make my parents angry and make my wife angry used to make my teachers angry especially when i corrected them and i usually was right so it's not like it oh were you and well you know back then there was no google or wikipedia so oh school seems like such a long time ago but i remember it i remember sitting in that stupid room next to the boiler for boiler room for drafting it was already hot in the summer and the none of the rooms have air conditioning because because they were all built in the 50s so you have to open the window so it'd be like 90 outside that sits you're next to the giant boiler for the water and they never turn that off in the summer it gets like 115 and i'm trying to like do drafting it's like i just want to sleep it's the worst room to be in which room i love drafting it's just i can't work when it's oppressively hot can't work with it that was in high school yeah pretty drafty t-squares and so you don't have air air conditioning in your house now in san francisco now san francisco you just open the windows and eventually the time will shift i don't think we ever had air conditioning might have had air conditioning in one of the places we lived actually in san francisco but we had it in oakland and we had it in san rafael but it does get a little warmer in oakland in san rafael so it makes more sense well you know it gets hot in san francisco for maybe a month and a half yeah or used to now it's just well we lived out in the outer sunset so even when it would get hot somewhere in san francisco was rarely hot out there yeah undermined is saying he was also a person with a hot oppressively hot drafting room in high school we didn't have air conditioning in our high school i wish we did but we uh but i mean it would start to get hot in may uh and they'd have to open windows and they had these smaller windows and mostly we're worried about heat in high school the only rooms that had air conditioning were the port like the little um the ones they wheeled in the uh the ones that are like basically look like mobile homes oh yeah that their own acs and mrs robert she was great she was my english teacher she was from missouri so she had a really thick accent thick accent what kind of accent did she have coming from missouri uh it's kind of a southern like she's from southern missouri she's from southern missouri then had a very twangy southern accent that's sort of unusual not terribly unusual but yeah she must have been down caped her art towards arkansas probably well you know i don't know if when she says she's from missouri if she was born and raised there or just was from somewhere else and just was there and then yeah my aunt betty has a thick southern accent because she's from alabama but she lives in missouri now she's lived there for a long time you know that's the one thing i i was surprised at how mild the action was at least in little rock arkansas i was expecting a thicker but you know that that could totally be a class regional thing like if you go out to further yeah it's pretty pretty uniform in those areas though uh because i where i grew up we didn't think we had an accent but we did and i started to realize that when i started working radio when i was 16 and i realized when i listened to myself back i'm like oh i have an accent it's almost southern because it starts to just shade into it as you get southern illinois southern missouri arkansas kentucky what i noticed is like um especially well just like the people i've worked with like people in technical or or higher white collar jobs tend to have an accent but it's very muted and it's only when they get excited or they're being you know they're talking about a big game or something doesn't kind of come out so i'm not sure if that's just a conscious effort to tone it down yeah i i worked very hard to rid myself of my accent um although let's see do i have it here i don't think i have it here so dano dano dano i thought the the public site was can't or uh was voted against or canceled wasn't the public site cancel i don't know every time i follow australian news what oh the the public site the public site on gay marriage and australian accents yeah you know again that's one of those things in the cities it was pretty easy but like once you get to up into the sicker ends or the the the more rural ends of queensland it was let's see see if you can hear this this is me in 1986 i've played this before thank you thank you thank you this is only my first day and listen to that apart all right i'm right here with you on wgl the best country in the country all right right now i see we've got marielson and alabama do up this hour but first we have these very very important messages you sound i mean it's interesting because i think you sort of had an accent when you i first met you um but what's what's what i find really interesting about that is just how young you sound like as a well yeah i'm 16 years old there too right that that makes a big difference i got distracted i make sure i do this okay i feel like that's probably the right episode and it sounds southern but you sound super young you can hear the 80s of that clip you can hear the 80s in that clip yeah some strange mix of california and cholera what's a colorado accent it's country yeah no gpeg nailed it it's a it's a country country kind of twang makes you want to say yee haw uh i don't know that i had an accent when you met me except maybe a little bit of the texas accent because i'd lived in texas for six years before that um because yeah when when i started doing radio i tried very hard to be like okay i'm going to i am going to pronounce every letter the way it is in fact supposed to be pronounced to try to get rid of you know dropping rs and all that sort of thing but isn't that uh is i mean do southerners really drop their rs or is that just a regional thing uh well i mean yes it's a regional southerl thing well no i'm gonna just think it like maybe i just know too many people from the south who speak for us and that's the interesting thing right uh in austin when i lived there i didn't feel like people had accents around me because their accents were more mild but you'd get out into the country and you'd get that country twang and and so yeah i mean when you say it's regional i think i know what you mean like there are city folk in the south who don't have as strong of a yes exactly but that's that's more of a of an urban versus rural thing i think and then there's transplants too right like people who move there from somewhere else like rural californians don't don't maybe to me because they live there for a while don't sound too don't have a noticeable accent although has although latinos in california do they speak with a you know they speak with a very uh noticeable dialect and tone and their voice g-peg is totally nailed it he's like uh tom sounded like someone on a rural farmers network uh which was exactly what what it was it was a rural farmers radio station and we did the we did the farm reports and the you know the chicago border trade market openings hard to corn prices all of that stuff i don't i don't know if i could actually do the accent that i had in that clip anymore is the thing like i can probably pretend to do it but it really wouldn't be the same it would be me pretending to do it uh occasionally if i call my friends back in greenville i'll start to slip back into it because their accent yeah that station's still around w scottis one go to uh wgl.com best country in the country still kicking it in fact i went there the other day because i was looking for bonn county election results let's see who won the local elections there see if anyone from high school well my sister works in the uh the circuit clerks court now you ever do that try to figure out what happened everyone from high school uh some morbid curiosity not everyone no i see them i went through that phase on facebook where a bunch of people from high school started to reconnect and we have brief conversations oh what are you up to now well what are you up to now try to forget high school no say the station again i didn't catch it well gpeg says i'm in new york city but i happened to have a rural farmers channel on my phios i checked out for a second uh you must have absorbed it very well you recognized it yeah we had a farm report it was kind of weird the first time i moved to medecis the first time i ever saw a farm farm report but you had to wake up really early or like five or six to catch it yeah you always put them on early in the day and then you'd have the market close uh the the chicago you know pork bellies and all that sort of thing and it's the only time i ever remember and i think it's because the state some of the stations just cut their signal after 12 right it ended at 12 midnight it was the first time i ever saw like a closing where you have the leg they play uh amer not america god bless america god bless america and they would have the flag waving yep yep thanks for watching this this today's program gel has reached the end of its broadcast day wgl operates with an effective radiate power of 3000 watts from studios located at 310 west main avenue in greenville illinois our studio to transmitter link call sign is wld 716 join us again tomorrow for the very best in radio entertainment so wait so what happened after it was just it just went off then i would push two buttons over on the transmitter and bring the transmitter offline turn it off like in uh i don't know i know some stations and i think this this holds true but at night you actually have to decrease the radio or the transmission power right because it's usually because there's less interference uh yeah we we were just we would just reduce it all the way we didn't have a license to provide i actually know you know what i think we had a 24-hour license i think it was our owner just wanted to save the money so we'd bring it down at midnight but yeah some some stations would reduce power at night you're right kmox uh it was a 50 000 watt station uh so at night you could get it you know way over in nebraska down in texas clear across the county it was a clear channel yeah but it's also flat land right pretty pretty flat from that southern you got the ozark mountains blocking you into the west um you know there's some there's some hills here in there it's some divots right i mean it's it's flat in and around there's a you know southern missouri is pretty pretty mountainous um ozark ozark like i could get stocked in radio stations pretty easily all the way from enesta and that's that's it that's quite a distance and it didn't it overlaps several local stations and it's just because it's you know relatively flat straight shot down the central valley you get the signal yeah i think uh those clear channels worked better in like the 60s because by the time i was a kid or by the time i went to college i could kick maybe pick up kmox on a good night in champaign illinois which was you know only in illinois but i couldn't pick it up all the time although when i was growing up sometimes i would i would pick up wls out of chicago you know so that was another clear channel what the hell is this like mckeel carter roads graduation order invoice what are you talking about remember how i get emails for other people but now i got this one from oh this is another austin's processing center email oh so you're inviting someone else's invoice yeah this is their cap and gown they're they bought the senior pack oh wow this they're they're total i mean going all out wow that's a lot more money than i spent at graduation all right i i am going to bring our broadcast day to an end that effective radiate power of zero watts thank goodness for the internet uh i guess we're an effective radiate power of whatever your wi-fi router has yeah if you're listening that way see you again tomorrow for the very best in internet entertainment


Writing for Humans, designing better software by keeping humanity in mind by Mike Moore. And that's kind of what I want to talk about. I was planning on having lots of solid, lots of code in the slides and not having any, but I just finished like about ten minutes ago, so I haven't really gone through it yet, so I'm not sure how long this will take. I think it's going to take like ten minutes, but we'll see how it goes. So a small disclaimer, I'm a Ruby guy. This kind of how I come to Agile is kind of through Ruby. And so because I'm kind of apathetic towards Agile, I don't really identify myself with Agile. I love the XP practices, but I'm not really a culture warrior, which is kind of ironic since I'm going to be talking a lot about culture today. But what I found in Ruby is I think there's a worldview that is not held by the majority that informs where Agile came from. And I think that that worldview, like you said, is a minority worldview. It's not the majority worldview. And that's something that I think we've lost, and I don't really hear us talking too much about it. And so those are some of the things I'm going to talk about. And I've heard a lot of talking around this today, but I haven't actually heard someone actually talk directly about this. And that's kind of the point I wanted to get out of this. So Ruby guy, you know, you guys could be like most famous Agile people in the world, and I would have no idea because I'm oblivious to that. All right, so what is software? So what do you guys do for... Actually, before I start, how many people here are programmers? That's like 90%. All right. Another question. How many people here have been in Agile for like more than a year or more than two years? Oh, so like about half. All right, so you're not the old guard. You're not like the, you know, you're not tired of all this yet, right? So that's kind of good because I'm trying not to be kind of jaded and tired of it. So maybe we'll have something to talk about that. So I'm feeling I might be kind of like retreading a bunch of stuff that was like discovered in 2002. All right, so this is the SICP. And the preface of this is, I love the preface. I like the prefaces in general because they really tell you what you're going to wear on the book, and they've got the juiciest quotes in it. So in it, there's a series of quotes that I absolutely love talking about what software is. That was the question I was going to ask before. So let's do some interaction, you know, at the end of the day. So let's kind of wake up. What is software?  What do you say? What is software? To save a web site. For me, software is what I tell a computer to do and in a way that other people can understand what I'm telling you. So it's instructions? So it's instructions to the computer and hints to those who have to alter the instructions later. So instructions to the computer and hints to people around you. That's what you're just doing. Okay. Anybody else? Anybody have something other than that? Kind of very machine oriented? Yeah. Usually if somebody asks in more detail what I do, it's usually more effective to tell them what the software does than what I do. And so, you know, it's not just instructions for a machine, but it actually does something useful. And if you're going to help people understand what that is, then you want them to understand why it's useful to them. So you enable some sort of utility for someone to use a machine. Making a computer more than a paperweight is how I always describe it. How great is that? Making a computer more than a paperweight. Making a machine worth something and not just something heavy. What about software on my computer or something more than a heavy piece of junk? Expensive. Yeah, expensive. Alright, so in the SICP, the professor says, again, this is to teach, I'm suspecting MIT people have a program. I outlined our approach to this subject of learning how to program. It's our conviction that computer science is not a science and that its significance has little to do with computers. The computer revolution is a revolution in the way we think and in the way we express what we think. The word I want to highlight. Can you use the difference between that? Think. Now express. Yeah, it was think. That's kind of a highlighted thing. Think. Yeah, alright. Continues. We want to establish the idea that a computer language is not just a way of getting a computer to perform operations, but rather that it is a novel, formal medium for expressing ideas about methodology. Thus, programs must be written for people to read and only incidentally for machines to execute. So it kind of flips that, right? It's not necessarily instructions, it's really for the people around you. Again, the thing is, what do I want to highlight here? People. That's the word that's highlighted. We believe that the essential material to be addressed by a subject at this level is not the syntax of a particular programming language constructs nor clever algorithms for computing particular functions efficiently nor even the mathematical analysis of algorithms and the foundations of computing. But rather, the techniques used to control the intellectual complexity of large software systems. And the words I really want to highlight here is intellectual complexity. In my mind, that's what software is. In my mind, we are workers of ideas. We are organizers of intelligence. This is what we do. This is what software is. This is what makes software so completely and radically different than everything that's come before, right?  Here, we're dealing with ideas. And ideas are really tricky things. So, intellectual complexity. Our goal is to create intelligence for our own end, right? That's what we're here for. We're here to put it together and make it do something awesome for us. And like I said, it's not easy, right? Like we crash space shuttles. I mean, look at the horrible things that software has done to the world, right? Because it's very, very difficult. But I think maybe we make it a little more difficult than it needs to be. All right. So what is intelligence, right? If software is intellectual complexity, what is intelligence? What do you guys think it is? The Apple dictionary definition on my computer says it is the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills. It's an ability. It's not a possession, right? So it's not even something we really have, right? It's the potential of things that might be, right? That is intelligence. And that's what we're working with, right? And I don't know. That makes me kind of proud to do what I do. All right. I'm going to shift gears just a little bit. What do you often need to have? Invitance is not something you often need to have. It's the ability, right? It's the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skill, right? It's not a skill. It's not knowledge. It's the ability to do something with it. That is intelligence. All right. So we're going to shift gears because this is an agile confidence center. This is only the second one I've been to. This is the second one last year. And I was on the panel and I said, yeah, I think agile was dying. So like, my agile confidence experience is kind of colored by that. I'm not sure what an agile confidence is supposed to be. It's called the second generation. One of the things that I actually really like about agile, like I said, I don't really like the cultural warrior type thing. But I do like kind of where it came from. I like how it was started. My understanding is where Alistair Covern came from. He was working for IBM. They said, why did some software, why did some teams work and why did some teams not work? And so he got to fly all over the world and observe, right? Observation is pretty cool. There's a lot that we can learn by observation. And when we observe teams that are successful, what do we observe, right? You know, a lot of what I see coming out of agile is a lot of tools and techniques, right? And it's from observation of teams that have succeeded, right? But one of the things this doesn't tell me is what was their thought process going into coming up with a certain technique. Or, you know, what was the thought process in deciding that this tool was necessary, that they're going to create this tool in a particular way, right? We don't know what they were thinking. All we have is the observation of what they did, you know, which you can learn from that, but you're not really going to change your thinking very easily just by copying other people's head. What we really want to learn is to want to know how they think. Like I said, I think agile came from somewhere. Agile didn't just emerge, right? Agile came out of something, right? And if we understand that something, I think it will be a lot better than agile. All right, so, let's see, who knows. Okay, so how can we learn to think like them, right? How do we, if you look at the people that signed the manifesto at, you know, the Aleister Coverns, the Bob Marvins, the Ryan Marys, the Dave Thomas' and Andy Hunt's, how do we become like them, right? That's a really difficult question. I've been struggling for a really long time is how do I emulate that, right? Is it just enough to buy the books and sort of, you know, read their blogs and try and talk it like them? I don't think it is. I think the missing element is culture. This is the thing that separates the men from boys as you will, right? This is the thing that gets you over that conceptual hump. And culture means an awful lot to me. Like I said, I'm a Ruby guy. I kind of fell under Ruby about five years ago at a real low point in my career. I was ready to kind of walk away because the joy wasn't there anymore. And, you know, I saw this, you know, it was pretty early as before Rails 1. I saw this article about Rails and I was a web guy, I decided I should look into it. And that really got me was Ruby, right? I just fell in love with the language. It made a lot of things click and make sense. I'll get into that a little bit later. But the thing that really helped me more than anything was the culture, right? Ruby's got a tremendous culture. They've got a lot of things that just, they're just really, really wonderful. There's a saying in the Ruby culture, minus one. And that means Matt's nice and so we are nice. Matt's the creator of Ruby, right? And because he's a nice guy on the mailing list, we're supposed to be nice to everyone else, right? But that's kind of an effect in the Ruby culture. Ruby is a very, very nice culture because culture matters a lot, right? It's not a zero-sum game, right? There are aspects to the Ruby culture that make Ruby a better programming language. So, it's important. Don't ignore the culture, right? If you're a java shop, that culture of Java is informing your team and how they behave, right? If you're a large enterprise, that culture is informing your team and how they behave, right? Culture is extremely important. You need to learn about the culture, right? You need to embrace it in the most instances. And the thing about the culture that I think was unique and where Agile came from was objects. Agile came out of the object culture. Agile came out of a fundamental understanding about objects that we just don't see very much, right? Those guys came back and that whole crew, they had a much different view of what objects are than I think what we do today, right? And I think it's a real shame that we kind of miss out on this different way of thinking about objects, right? So, the other thing about the culture is, you have to kind of equate it with the small talk culture. I don't think it's like 100% overlap there, right? But I think at that point in time they were really just being attacked on all sides by the C++ and the Geologists. And regardless of all of the pressure that they had on them, they still moved the entire industry, right? They got together up at Snowbird. They said, here are the things that we believe. And because it was easy enough to understand, they moved the entire industry, even though they were kind of losing the language. Okay. Here's a quote from Great Boots. I really like this a lot. Let there be no doubt that object-oriented design is fundamentally different than traditional structured design approaches. It requires a different way of thinking about decomposition. And it produces software architectures that are largely outside the realm of structured design culture, okay? It's going to be different. If you're doing what you think is object-oriented code and it looks a lot like structured code, you're doing it wrong, right? The benefits in the 80s that were talked about of object orientation was like an order of magnitude less code and better performance, right? So that means if you've got a million-line C application, it would be 100,000 lines of object-oriented code and it would perform better, right? So how does that happen? That's the promise. And different studies have shown that, right? And the reason is because it's a completely different way of thinking, right? And sometimes I don't think we have to say that or not. We have to think about it. So, I mean, they're not just smarter than us, right? I think there's a lot of really smart people in this room. I'm certainly not, you know, I'm not even in the top half of the smartest people in this room. I would be willing to wait here. But I can do what they did, right? And it's not because they're smarter, it's just because they get to think a little bit differently. So what is an object? Who can tell me what an object is? Anybody? Sure, whatever. What's an object? Capsulation of state and behavior. And identity. Okay, like that, right? It's like your encapsulation boundary, right? You know, all the operations, working on your data. Is there anything else that we think about about objects as people are leaving the room? It usually represents something tangible, I guess. I don't know what the word I'm looking for is. But it's not just state as in some arbitrary value, but it actually has information that has a value of being something. Yeah? It belongs to a classification. It's a single class. Sometimes we think about objects as a black box, right? Sometimes, like, you know, if you're old school, like an innovative circuit, are you going to reuse that? That's an object. Think of objects as people. This is the big change, the big difference in how I have approached programming, is I think of objects as people. And as I'm in my object, as I'm adding code to it, as I'm adding new features, I'm changing behavior, in my mind is always like, how does this object feel, right? Like, do I just take this object and physically lift it up and put it somewhere, right? Or do I ask it nicely to go clean their room to stop pulling their systems here, right? The key to this is a big word called anthropomorphization. I'm not sure if I said that right. This means attributing human motivation, characteristics, behavior to non-human organisms or inanimate objects, right? And we see a lot of this kind of culture, right? Is Twistory open? This week, I think that's something like that, right? That's like the perfect example of attributing motivation, right? Your toys come alive. Something that's not living comes alive. Or Bugs Bunny is something that is alive, but, you know, lots of talks like a person, right? You can reason with it, have a conversation with it, you can ask it things, right? And that responds. It has a life of its own. So when we're code, we're implementing features, responding to our customers' requests, we need to be thinking like an object or like our object is thinking, right? If this was a living, breathing person, how would they feel? It's really tempting when I code to want to think like a machine, right? I want to think like this is just a sequence of commands I just wanted to do, right?  So I'm going to do this thing in this special order because I'm manipulating something that's running, right? And I think that's the difference between structure programming and object-oriented programming, right? You need to break out or you need to kind of put away the idea of the machine and start dealing with your code as people, as humans. That kind of is also you should honor their boundaries, right? And we'll talk a little bit about that for a while. The thing about this is it's like super hard though, right?  And it's like the hardest thing in the world to say, well, yeah, we could add this, you know, function to this piece of code, but, you know, I don't think that the class would really appreciate it. I don't think you'd like it. You might just kind of nap. That's kind of a hard thing for him to do, right? Because he wants to be lazy. He just wants to kind of do what he does and not worry about, you know, the responsibility of the user. He must be asked if something will work in this part of the application, you know? And yeah, sometimes people don't like to, when you start talking about code that way. The other thing about this is it's really counterintuitive, you know, but I got news for you guys. Agile is counterintuitive as hell, right? I cannot get people to even try it, right? This way of thinking has informed the culture from which Agile came from, right? A lot of these ideas are just assumed in the literature of Agile, right? But maybe not something that we necessarily realize or something we give enough weight to. And I think a lot of that is because we came from procedural code. I mean, who learned to code using a procedural language or using a C-based language? Okay, who did not raise their hand? One person. List? Job. No, that's a C-based code. C-based language. Everybody, right? We all learned it. This is how we learn. I remember being in college, and I had taken C and passed out and I was taking intro to computer science. And this was before the STL was Alpha C++, so it was basically the C with classes. And I remember just like not getting why you would add so much overhead to your C code, right? Like zero benefits. Why would I add like, you know, 50% more code and give 20% less performance? You know, it just didn't make any sense. It took me a really long time trying to figure out why, you know, or kind of buy and pay as well as your presentation. When you come up in what is essentially a procedural culture, it is very difficult to move to something that's declarative, right? That's one of the reasons I'm really happy to see so much closure going on, right? Because it challenges your assumptions about what a programming language is. We find negative reinforcement a little bit twice. It is difficult, but not impossible to go against the grain. But in my experience, it is very, very, very difficult to go against the grain. And I also think that we're not really learning object orientation today. I think we learned some artifacts of it, but I think that the kind of principles, the ideas that inform what a lot of the new programmers coming up going to school think of object orientation is actually antithetical to what it was meant in the beginning back to the 60s what they were talking about, about objects, they were talking about modeling biological systems, right? I mean, how many of you guys are thinking about modeling a biological system in your code? And it's really sad. We should. All right, so at this point, and I'm sure at times, okay, at this point in my mind, I'm self-doubting myself, and I think you're all like, what is this thing about? That's just stupid, I'm wasting my time, and I should have loved those other 10 people. So that's cool, that's cool. So let's see what this looks like. Okay, so here's an entity relationship diagram, right? We've got a customer, we've got our address, and we've got our account. That's like a banking account, right? And it's got like an amount of money in it. All right, so if we have this and we wanted to, like, ship an order to a customer, what would we do? How would we get the address to ship to this customer? What steps would we go through in our head? I would assume that customer would be an object as well. Let's just assume it does. Okay, I mean, from a strict database standpoint, I would assume there'd be a foreign key to the customer, or there'd be a table that links customer and address. Well, there's a customer ID and an address. And I look up an address that has a customer ID. Basically, the ID that I have would be that. Right, okay. So what you're doing is you're saying, I need an address for this customer. Let's say I've got this, you know, this day-to-day memory representing the customer. So what I do is I say, okay, well, I'm going to ask the customer for this piece of data.  Right? And I need to get all the valid addresses for the customer so I can figure out which one I'm going to shift to. Right? Now, that's great for, like, relational theory and stuff, and you can prove this. It's good. It's an optimization. Let's look at what I said. What if we're going to decrement, like, an account, the amount of money in an account? Right? So let's say this is our customer person and the wallet is representing the account and the money is representing the amount of funds in that account. Right? So how do we go about taking the money? Right? What we do is we walk up to the customer, don't talk to him, we go directly to the account and take funds from him. Now, if I went up to you and did that, what would you do? I'd punch you. Exactly, right? That's, like, really rude, you know? This is not a nice thing to do. We shouldn't be doing that. We shouldn't be reaching in and kind of, you know, manipulating the boundary of this customer, right? The customer boundary is much bigger than just its table, right? We should ask the customer, what if the customer doesn't want to pay out of his wallet, but he wants to pay out of something else, you know? Maybe he's got global wounds in his pocket. That's what he wants to pay out of it, right? We should let the customer decide, right? Do you have a pirate? The economy is crashing right now. Maybe he's, like, a Rebecca student. He's, like, worried about it, but I can't fight you. Look at that strike. No screaming game. Alright, so the reason for this is because of formalism. This is a philosophy that just permeates every part of Western culture, right? Philosophy basically goes like this. The universe, I'm going to read this actually, the universe is a very complex mechanism that operates according to discoverable laws. If man can discover those laws, he can use those laws to his own end and make things happen, right? All of our advances the last few hundred years have been on the basis of this philosophy, right? Computers themselves are on the basis of this philosophy, right? And this is, like, a death nail to writing good software, right? We don't want to do this. We want to challenge these ideas. Why? Because these ideas are facts, right? My computer's on a table. That is a fact, right? Intelligence is not based on fact, right? It's the ability to do something with it. So we'll go there. So formalism is, as much as it permeates Western culture, it's like super heavy in the technical culture, right? It's computer science, right? It's software engineering, right? We live and breathe this idea that everything is just a rule that we can push, right?  How's your team doing? You're like, oh, it's great. We're a well-oiled machine, right?  It's very formalistic. On the opposite end of this is a word that I've never heard before. It's called hermeneutics, right? And this is like a counterpoint to formalism. It's a minority point of view. In color post-modernism, it started with the study of ancient texts, right? Like sacred texts, the Bible, the Quran, older texts, right? And what they were really trying to figure out was, well, what does that mean, right? Those words on the page, I understand what those words are, but when you put them together in this way, what does that mean, right? It's really difficult from a scientific proof for meaning. You can call it the study of semantics, or you can say that it is a quest for meaning. And what I'm hearing today is telling you that there is meaning in your software. What you do every single day has meaning inherent in it because it is intellectual complexity, right? I go so far to say that there is truth in it, right? What you guys do every day is a quest for truth, right? It is not just a wrote sequence of steps or instructions to get something, right? There is truth and meaning in what you do. Here's a little bit. Let's talk about metaphor. Metaphor is really important. It's one of the 12, I don't know, steps. 12 steps of XT. It's a really important part of XP, though, right? I mean, it's not something that you would just kind of assume would be an XP. It turns out to be really super important, though. The world is a really, really big place. It's hard to understand, right? And metaphor is key to us to understand the world, right? We think in metaphors a lot. So let's go ahead and explore some metaphors and three of them. Again, it's hard to prove a metaphor, right? An object is a softball diagram, right?  It's hard to prove, right? An object is a person. That's tough. Metaphor helps us understand the truth of software, right? It doesn't help us understand, like, the output that we're trying to get. It's not a specification, but it helps us understand the truth. And that metaphor also helps us discover and decompose our application space into our domain, into an application. All right. So we understand this metaphor with objects.  I've been in too many companies that were a command and control structure, right? One of the reasons as a programmer I don't like is I like to make decisions. And I don't like when the ability for me to make decisions is taken away. I like to come up with better ideas. And there's just too much friction introduced in a command and control structure in that type of environment for me to work in. I've decided I won't do it anymore. What about our objects? I think our code is, is your code happy? Right? Does it get to make some decisions? Right? Is it kind of fulfilling what it was created for? You know? I think too often sometimes we are command and control centered in our objects. In our creatures, right? We're creating these things. These are intelligent things that we're creating. The metaphor I want to talk about is theater. I'm actually running late. This is awesome. I thought I was going to be done in two minutes. Theater is a great metaphor for what we do as programmers, right? So our objects can be props. That's cool, right? Here's a pencil. It's on the stage. It's a prop. That's kind of like your value objects. You know, like a string or an integer. Objects can be actors, though, too, right? So if you're going to go somewhere and see your boss in play, you want to see really good actors. So objects can be good actors. And I'm going to use an metaphor. Stakeholders, I guess, can be writers. We're the directors, though, right? We're the ones who are directing the play. We're giving stage direction. We're asking for more emotion. We're telling them to turn it down. You know, this is supposed to be a serious moment, not a funny moment. We inform our actors on what they're supposed to do, right? And then they go out and do it. And I guess to really use it, our customers couldn't be audience because they get to enjoy the life. Now, there are all sorts of plays. You have the one person play.  It takes like a year to prep it. You know, then it goes around the world and plays for 10 years. The great thing about this metaphor, though, is that we can replace the actors in our play, right?  We don't have to go back and rewrite the entirety of the script. You know, we don't have to go back and change the stage direction. We may want to take better, you know, make the most of our new actor, but we're not forced to, right? So, kind of an amusing metaphor. Sorry about that. The greatest thing about this, though, is that, you know, if you talk to actors, you know, the theater actors, you know, they always talk about magic happens on stage, right? There's always something that you're not really preparing for and that combination of actors on the stage responding to something unprepared for is magic, right? And sometimes it's so much better than what you were planning on doing, right? Sometimes that moment is just golden, right? And if we take this approach to our jobs as the directors of creating objects and putting them out on the play, we get to create magic, we get to create these moments, right? The sun is greater than the whole of its parts. I guess another good metaphor would be ads. I'm talking about command and control.  Now, metaphors can be used for bad as well. One of the things that we, I saw a lot, and I did a lot, an awful lot, is I would create rigid hierarchies. This is how I learned object orientation, right?  He was a mammal, you know, and then you just create this huge rigid hierarchy and that's like really super bad, right? That metaphor doesn't work very well for what we're trying to express in our application unless you're trying to create practical code. I don't need to say that. We should focus on the assets of what our objects have and what they do in our categories. I've seen that over and over and over again and especially the Ruby community is really informing that you don't focus so much on categorization of classes, focus more on behavior. So, I'll wrap it up. We don't need to do more of the same. We don't need more tools. We don't need to do what we're doing today to be a better developer, right? To build better code, to satisfy our customers more. The thing we need to do is we need to challenge our assumptions on what it is that we do and the importance of it. And if we do that, kind of respect the culture of where we came from. I think they're all going to be a better program. Just for my own journey, I'm so much happier than I was five years ago. And the reason is because I really embraced these ideas that were just like shocking and appalling. I would just push away at first. But, you know, if I sound crazy, which I probably do, just give it a try. The thing is, is that we're dealing in intellectual complexity, right? We're not dealing in machines, right? We're not manipulating machines, right? We are creating and expressing an idea. And that's really popular. So I want to end on a quote. I like quotes a lot. Often people, especially computer engineers, focus on the machines. They think by doing this, the machine will run faster. By doing this, the machine will run more effectively. By doing this, the machine will something, something, something. They're focusing on the machines. But in fact, we need to focus on the humans. On how humans care about doing programming or operating the application of the machines. We are the masters. They are the slaves. You can hear Matsumoto, the creator. I don't want to say real quick. All the good ideas. I think they're good ideas. All the good parts of my presentation. I think they're good parts. Are from this book, Object Incident by Dr. David West. My name is Mike Moore. If you know, it's mygeplomage.com. You can find me there or on Twitter. Any questions?


There is one, there are two more people who have gotten to be the Thomas Sander, our creative designer. Happy that KTV Victorian MC Manu. Thank you very much. And the last person from the bottom of my heart, my girlfriend, Nuko. The higher two, the better one here. That is one, one, one, one last thing. The past week, I lived with her, she was in the Kuba Sander. And when I was to come here, I was supposed to feel that I am a father. But unfortunately, my son died four days ago. So, it has been a very tough journey for me because we had to go through that and at the same time make the show. Whenever you see somebody walking or smiling, just go and ask if it's okay or not. Let's be our brothers, let's be our sisters, let's love one another and welcome to the happy country. Thank you very much.