The infamous turkey Tom. Oh, yeah. So so that will be that'll be fun We have we have we have quite an interesting chemistry. So I think I think people should be entertained by that Okay, it should be working this time around. I am Encouraged to assume so anyway Well, I mean you can probably keep track of the views I assume Oh, there's people talking in chat, which is enough. Well, yeah clicking the links, I mean Easy peasy squeeze the lemon Hello, everybody, even though we're still gonna have to wait for a bit to let a couple fall in How did how did curiosity? Did you ask to go on drink a peasant? So were you sent? Someone I think someone's they were like who do you want to come on and someone was like the right opinion And then they acted me and said do you want to come on?  Why not?  I'll come on to anything as long as it, you know We don't we get we don't get too extremist, which you know, I don't I don't I don't consider e-fap Million wasn't enough I Haven't watched the other episodes, so I wouldn't wouldn't exactly know Maybe I should have maybe You could have watched the ones about you if you wanted, but I mean I could have but but it but it would have been bad for my my greats your grades Yeah, because because I had I had Classes and exams and Kind of the priority, you know, and if you know, if I might catch up with them in the hot days But right now like because actually grades are doing well for like the last Six and a half months the grades have been really solid and I was like I don't want to break this Equally, I know the watching watching your video, you know Regards of what I think of it it will it will probably it will probably be quite like it'll be quite a drain on me Just I would imagine. Yeah. Yeah, and I didn't want to get into the wrong mindset before these things and that you know I completely understand why you responded and I don't oppose that at all It was just it was just probably like I had to put myself first in that instance and just and just keep focus on What should be like most important to my future currently? There enough I think all your levels are all good. It rags. Do you want to just like say hello? Hello Everybody you're probably the loudest. That's good. That's that's a rare occurrence. That's that's the way it should be Yeah, you don't have to do anything. I can control it. Thankfully So yes, despite popular assumptions TRO is here. You can see him. That's his yeah, that's his icon No one else can have that I mean I'm in person.   Oh For tier reckons, I'm lower than you two. I mean is it Really bad. Can you guys just sort of deal with it and put the microphone right next to me right now as well? You sound fine to me. Yeah, you sound fine to me as well as weird I'm not sure these things just like change between streams. Like I don't do anything, but it's just like no, this is happening now. It's like But I mean have you you are you streaming an OBS? Yes Can you check you can check the levels? I think on the little Front control panel. Yeah, the levels with we I look to be peeking around about the same place as you guys So that's why I figured it was okay, but if not, then well, I mean Is it how many people are saying that like what's what's the general consensus? We've got I can hear you you sound really arrogant to me for some reason Not better sounds fine for me. It's fine. What do you fight? All right? If enough people say this fine, then we should be good So Yes, so anybody who's Suddenly jumped to this video and it's like what they're not talking about the Vox video They'll I'll just put a time stamp in a pinned comment So you can jump to that if if that's what you were looking for rather than the what we're gonna start with which is first of all Rags happy tenth episode of EFAP. We got to ten has been ten episodes already. Oh beautiful It's like just yesterday. We stumbled upon this format It was what even was the first episode. I think Jared Genesis was was it there with the was a Patrick Williams That was kind of what started this wasn't it something like that, but at the beginning it was kind of mixed with Wolf's podcast, too Yeah, it was essentially it was kind of like your streams. We respond as well It's not like this is new everybody else has done streams. They respond to videos, but I Don't know. It's sort of just but ours are full of high tier content I mean the the the similar factor is we respond to video essays. That's the main The main goal like we wouldn't respond to commentary videos or something because that would be strange We wouldn't respond to let's plays that would also be strange Good or political videos. We don't really cover either We didn't I don't know what you would call that video where we looked at the guy who said that um the last year I can't be hated if it's being bought Remember that it can't be hated if it he said it can't be hated that much if it's the best-selling Blu-ray of 2018 oh that short one. Yeah. Yeah, that guy. Yeah, that was that was the 12 year old cotton 35 year old man's body Yeah, the first three or four episodes didn't even have a name, but we've we've come that far What does EFAP stand for out of interest every frame a pause? Wow, that should that should be something that's in the like the description because a lot of people don't know I'm planning on revamping the descriptions and the thumbnails once I'm done with TFA Which means you know expect it within the next few years that we will sort that right out But I do actually want to spruce up EFAP because it's it's been a lot of fun I like EFAP and as for the there's many people asking about um not only when will wolf come back But will we respond to Eric Taksin's video on on wolf?  It's um the main gist I got from it is that Eric Taksin thinks that wolf's argument is that if you force a woman into something it automatically becomes bad and Eric is like no that's bad writing and has nothing to do with whether or not she's a woman and like that's accounted for in wolf's video And it's not a surprise because Eric plays about three minutes of wolf's 18-minute video. I think it is. Oh, yeah, because wolf's video is pretty good No, yeah, I quite liked it and it's not I didn't think it was that controversial. It's just like Stop going so heavy on Like the way to fix this product is to now make them You know X thing which is never something I think I go over in my actual TFA critique that I I'd see that as like, you know, what happened with phasma all of the Promotional material about phasma they can't resist saying that she's a girl and that's why you should see it And it's just like you barely even just another character and you can barely even find out that she was a girl in anyway Yeah, people like us who don't like the last Jedi.  They shouldn't have told us at all That's the result. Why'd you hate women? It should have been a reveal at the very end like metroid like oh god It's a woman. Oh, no this whole time. I knew there was something off about her. I Knew that we should like it was a reason. I hated metroid. I knew there was some aura coming out of her So yeah, just so people are confused in the background We've just got the video from TRO playing so that it sort of matches what the conversation is gonna be about for a bit Which is going over pretty much everything that happened. And yeah, I was gonna say I did talk about the the Eric Taxon thing it's gonna be asked again and again So we're probably gonna have to say like every episode until wolf comes back. So at least you guys know who's uh, who's listening I wish I followed this. I do not have a clue. This is oh, don't worry This is like introduction stuff once we get this out of the way, you'll be fine I mean, that's fair enough. Yeah, no, it's all right. I'm just I'm just like I clearly don't follow YouTube enough this Tax on dishonored wolf and not that There's such strange connections because I think Eric taxon is like at least acquainted with each bomber guy who's like Doesn't like me and then I'm friends with wolf and it's like a completely unrelated connection I mean the the the only thing I know about Eric taxon is that he makes music He does. Oh cool. Yeah, I think I think so because I Followed music critics quite quite closely and one of one of them that I used to follow Seems to be acquainted with Eric taxon and there's reviewed some of his music So that's that's that's that's like I was thinking to myself like for a few minutes like I know I know our taxon from somewhere And I think that's that's where I think he makes think he makes some music. So there you go Wasn't a great sign that like his video he disables ratings on all of his videos and He's got a video apparently where he explains it so we can we're probably gonna check that out as well before Judging anything, but I don't know why you would disable ratings in a because he knows that it's gonna be low And he doesn't want people to see that and so he's coming up with some crazy reason about all here's why I don't want Our rags.   I'll let somebody choose to get rid of their their ratings. This is this is this is This is going right Excellently, I should say there was one thing I wanted to clarify because I read on the other the other podcast It was like the the the whole thing about force ghosts and whether or not they could like interact I really actually don't have a definitive answer. I don't know. I just know that if you Say that Yoda can do what he can do in the latest one It just raises questions of why I didn't do it before, you know, like the idea of what does Obi-Wan mean when he says I Cannot interfere. What does it definitively mean and does him talking in Luke's head counters interfering? Because that's kind of what my argument was it's like that counters interfering and he chose not to with Vader Because you know when Luke is like bad and help me when he's like nearly fallen off best, but I don't think he was Expecting much more than Ben just turning up in his head like yo Like he did in in Hoth when Luke was nearly dead, you know that sort of thing and Obi-Wan was just like nope Not doing that and I assumed it was because he decided to go off in his own sort of thing But again, totally more to discuss on that for anybody who's super into the Star Wars law. So yeah, that's that's about that So first we'll go over I guess what what what even happened like it all it all began with the fateful day that Ryan Johnson released his movie and then I think Tiara's gonna have to rebate neutral that he's like And then I hate everything put out his video which was like I Think it was intended to be a response to the toxic fan base element correct I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean that was the intention from what I understand unfortunately It's clear that that that didn't that didn't quite come out the way he didn't he'd completely get out way envisioned it Definitely, I mean when I spoke to him the main thing I said to him that was trying to get the point across For why it was confusing is he involved a couple of things that are sort of like wrenches in the point as in like Yeah, he has some defenses of the film involved when it's like if you're just making a statement about how people are being way too toxic So you don't even need that but you threw that in there. It's okay. He also threw in that He says so I think it was something like something backlash like insane or vicious or excessive backlash and he had like a screenshot of Reviews where people were saying like, you know, Luke's character was Assassinated or I thought the film was blah blah blah like relatively reasonable statements. Yeah. Yeah, and so again, you should be like, huh, I Mean, I think it's one of those things It's about like for me. It was at the time I just kind of identified the overarching narrative though I understand that there was there were details where where he should have kind of been been clearer And I've I've been victim to that too with some of my videos that I'll probably address in the future I'll I'll try and like make an overarching narrative But I'll I'll end up like falling down with some of the details and even though I think to myself at the time You know, I've been pretty clear here Whether it's whether it's the nature of some people or whether that's just where it is people people do tend to like There are like things where people would like say, oh, so what are you actually saying here? Yeah, and so it's you know, I think it's one just I think it's just a nature of being a youtuber, you know it's all about clarity and I Think I think you know, it's fair that he can hold up it like you know, I'm trying to say, you know, I should have been clear it there I remember watching it and just being like what in the hell you trying to say like and Genuinely come into the conclusion of like well That was pretty borked video because it sounded like he was trying to say that the last Jedi isn't that bad and that you're all being too mean and everybody into the same sort of audience Generally, I think I think the issue was He he kind of conflated a few sets of arguments and in the end he was like what he tried to say was basically The hate isn't justified Because the film Isn't that bad now Because of the canal, I'm not I'm not Not here say like whether film was good or bad in a way, but the problem is that that in itself is like Is a bit of a strange argument to make us to me at least like The key the key point of view for me is the fact that it's it's a piece of you know Generally like it's it's not I mean to me at least to many people It's it is it isn't like inflicting hatred towards anyone and therefore, you know Nothing like that is justified and I think everyone like generally can agree that the death threats and stuff like that That's actually where I would sort of begin I'd be like isn't it redundant it's like saying it given a death threat for basically any film That's just a fictional Antisy sort of thing. It's just like well. Yeah, anybody's doing like you know the point about Someone said the Wilhelm scream wasn't in the film making it bad. It's like why even you know Actually, we could we could address that if you want like rags said several times that Why address these comments and your response was they exist? I Mean yeah, I mean that one of the things was at the time It was like to me from my perspective I I I saw and and and that I put that argument forward at the time very poorly and Retrospectively, it's like for me. It was like wow, I really should have worded that better and at the time it's like when you pick The comments when you pick the subject of the matter that you're going to argue Anyone can pick those and argue those but at the same time once you pick that you can't suddenly bring up irrelevant points for me What I viewed as those comments to him was the source of the argument and therefore he can he can use them in that instance to make an argument from them, however, I Kind of like use the phrase like he can do what he wants which is a terrible thing to say Um without a doubt and I really should have worked out how to say you're right But obviously rags was gunning for why as opposed to oh, yeah They're any can and I think I think the reason why at the time especially from from his perspective was that was that he was kind Of trying to use them as like rather than it was go It was complimentary to his point like he was he was saying look at how bad this hate has gotten You know, don't you think we've gone too far? So an additional interesting point there is that um, we never actually see any top comments that are Vicious, you know, I think the best he showed was like a comment that said something like, you know kill yourself And it was like for while. Yeah, like and then of course the Wilhelm screen. That's not even that's not even vicious That's not aggressive.   It doesn't make sense. Yeah. Yeah, and I do I do understand that I think for him it was like picking Because he he problem was he kind of Picked a few different arguments and conflated them 40 years were conflated, but we'll use again because you know, it's true There's a there's the question about nitpicking which is a legitimate argument, you know, we can have that discussion There's a question about going too far with the hate and use and the Wilhelm scream in a way is the question of nitpicking and But I don't even consider it a valid complaint, you know, like with nitpicks I'll often consider to be something where it's like, you know, the car in the background Lord the Rings It's a nitpick is like, oh, yeah, I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean Wilhelm scream is there like what even what I mean Yeah, it's It's one of those things it's it's not as you say, it's not really a valid argument But let's let's say, you know, what is it the credence? Yeah For the credence we give it like that point and say, you know It was a it was a fairly mine minor thing to like say that the film wasn't good to find that that point exists I I'd say that that he kind of tried to Fight too many points at once while in a way effectively Not kind of successfully fights in the points at all because the greater question that surrounded his argument should have been a question of like has the Star Wars fan base become to Become too like either too hateful either to nitpicky They're different things in themselves and if he kind of shaped a video around that specific argument There could have been some credence, but the problem was he broke kind of broke it up as you say with the with with the review of the film And try to make the argument that it wasn't that bad But in a way people really made their mind about the film on that behalf and the people who are going to be sending hate messages and and so on and And and and like nitpicks and all that they're not really necessarily particularly Couldn't they're not gonna be still not gonna have their mind swayed by by IHE's arguments And I think that was the problem. It was very disconnected video and I completely like Retrospectively going back a set that that video had it had its problems without a doubt And although I do understand where what he was trying to say and I'll always communicate that the best way I can Know it's it's it's flawed and it's it was I think it was detached Most importantly in its points of view that it was trying to address Yeah, well, that's that's pretty much our conclusion because I'm pretty sure that's why rags wanted to make his video Yeah, and I I don't I don't really like I Don't really like take issue. I never really took issue with the fact like People want to make videos on these things And I think obviously like, you know, that's it's completely your prerogative But I guess I took issue with with just the delivery at the time And I I felt a lot of people ask me like why did I make the video because there are very few videos that I've watched And I thought to myself I want to respond to that because very few videos provoke Strong feelings at the time that video provoked a strong feeling in me because as someone who is a friend of IHE And without a doubt is biased to that extent I completely accept that that I have that I have the bias. I try to I try to Alienate myself from that, but you know, it's always going to be hard to an extent Um, I mean, I doubt we're going to get you to say tonight that you think it's a bad video from I hate everything Like that's not really the intention, especially because you're friends with him. Uh, yeah and obviously The the issues the issues that I had mainly Came down to the fact that the that it was Given the fact that I know IHE and I know what he's like as a person and I know his Um, and I know his stance is on stuff and I know that he's very like marv madden And uh, I we found that out, you know, like obviously this is skipping the timeline a little bit But like when I got to speak to him me and wolf managed to get very clearly what he actually felt He just didn't Yeah, he conveyed it faster in conversation than he did in his own video Which is the interesting part because it was also proofed by you as well, right? Yeah, yeah, and and it was uh it was It was it was decent conversation that I mean You know, I think I think the mistake was that happened so late at night and and um And we should have kind of scheduled it a bit more clearly and just well, you know what happened, right? You remember why? Yeah, well, no, I I completely understand like what happened then and there but if I think maybe if we take a step back and thought like You know, let's just try and Maybe maybe be a bit more cautious with how we arrange this like we may have been able to get a bit more clarity on On the board, you know, I am on board of that 100% but again Just remind you did you did heart the comment. Uh, you called me childish arrogant condescending Yeah, yeah, and I I can I I I completely understand like why why we have that that call there and there um Maybe and I'm not necessarily saying like Oh, you know, it was unreasonable because in the in the circumstances like, you know, I would I want to do it as well um But In hindsight, I would have said let's let's let's do it like maybe like around this time Yeah, no, I think I think that makes sense. I've always wanted to have another conversation Maybe even live with him just about Dolls, but I think stars has melted his brain for the most part. I think I think I think it has um, and I think it's kind of Exhausted a lot of people understandably. So it seems such a such a specifically interesting topic to have Such vigorous debate over but no rigorous rigorous rigorous debates. Um, um, and I did not get that much sleep last night. Unfortunately And and therefore I think it I mean it's it's it exhausted me. Um, but I've kind of I've kind of gone through that stage now um, I'm fine. I find a fairly like Back like placid about it again Which is which is typically my my general um, my general Approach, uh, I guess I just Guess I just I'm fairly I'm fairly placid person There are just a few things that will rub me the wrong way and then I'll get then I'll get bowed up and Then I might make a video and then I might start making a video and then be like hang on a bit I'm just pissed off I'd say that applies to me and rags like we're relatively chill, but there'll be things that'll piss us off Every once in a while. Yeah. Yeah Um, I was gonna say timeline wise then so rags makes his video and I did watch rags as video as soon as it came out And I was relatively I was not only happy with it because I'm pretty sure he gave me quite the promotion So it helped my channel grow, but um, I thought he was giving some less so like this this definitive analytical counter more so Rags operating as the audience being like, what are you saying with this and then what there wasn't much analytical to respond to really? Hmm and so like the way I said this in the two streams And I'm just gonna see what you you take on it is it's like I hit everything sort of rambled out some thoughts and I'm not trying to say that In a critical way and then rags did a response to that off the cuff play his video and then say what he thinks Play so you got thoughts on thoughts and then you did what I would call an analytical response And so it's like almost chaos because it's uh, so much inference on on all ends which causes a I mean, you know, I think I've already told you but I shouldn't be a shock to To be aware that I think the the video here lies rags stop hitting what I like a special guest I kind of hate that video That's fine.   No, we came to the conclusion No, people just got to judge it from their own perspective and if they hate it they hate it and You know, it is what it is as a video to me It was an important step forward for my channel at the same time It was an extremely messy disorganized step forward for my channel and It gave me it was an important learning experience And it gave me a lot of time to reflect on on how to improve my content If I wanted to do it in that style in the future um We couldn't I was gonna say because this I just I already know there's gonna be people in the audience who are like Why isn't more they're asking specific and I'll be like let's get a little bit more specific So that I make sure that these things are covered. Um, we'll start I'll just start with a couple of easy things. So like There's this idea as we were approaching the video that um, we really couldn't tell Exactly how you were approaching rags as video is in was it chronologically or was it that you tried to sort of section off portions because like We started trying to find the timestamps of his video in order to like do a little bit of checking and like We would have nothing to work with because it could have been at any point. If you know what I mean Yeah, yeah, I mean I tried to follow the video chronologically And That was the general approach that I'd taken in that moment But There were times when I kind of called back to previous moments and Obviously That I did section it off in a way. Um, because of editing and I know we'll probably get to the editing in a bit Um, but uh, yes, those were the main reasons I approached it chronologically Uh, I kind of I hope that was somewhat Not one of them. I hope that was one of the less debatable things But equally yeah, there were moments that I went backwards and said well, he said he said this there and now I stand this hill Someone did that Pretty much Have you around the problem that we had was we had no idea Where like we had no idea what the structure was or how it was going from one thing to the next or If we were going we had no idea where in my video that this was a response to where I was And we were constantly having the issue of we don't know what I'm talking about Because in the video there'd be rag says x and then there's just the clip And I don't even know if I caught a sound bite more than a clip of me Just saying x and we would have no idea what the context would be of me saying that would be There's to sort of bolster that the idea is like there is a point and I don't blame you for this because it is a criticism If it's valid By responding to every single sentence of someone's video you can miss certain things or at least misinterpret certain things That was a criticism I got for my response to h-bomber guy However, it does mean I play every part of the video. So you have every single quote as the audience and Our problem was We were like wait So did rag say that and then this became way more of a problem when Quinton was introduced because it started he started saying things that we knew we didn't say Okay, um with regards to what I said What happened and I'll be perfectly candid here Was that I wrote out the script with the intention of paraphrasing What rag said to make it clearer I had and Obviously with every single thing I said um Like I I sought to make it very clear what rags when I never sought to misrepresent anything rag said um On the other and what happened was when we got to the editing process I was like Actually, I feel like we should play clips here of these things so as you say people don't Have to go and check if rags actually said that and Yeah, yeah, and and basically it created a very confusing dynamic Where I would say I there were situations. I try to I try to edit the parts out Where I I said rags said this but equally I There were parts where I left it in And it became very confusing because I would say something and then I play as you say I play a clip of rags and like you like why did I need to announce what rags said and and and so It was it was for me. I I had a big Big problem with with with structural confusion with how I was delivering it in a way I did What I thought was the best that I could do with regards to it um, but equally if I had Approached it as a response video and and and clip response um clip response Uh clip response um It would have been a lot clearer and As someone who was trying to like go into this new genre I can completely accept why that would have been totally confusing and they complete fuck up I mean, I would totally recommend just you know, if you find yourself saying they said this We like I'll just may as well play the clip. You know, it'll take the same amount of time, right? Yeah, yeah And um, that's I you do not you would not believe how much I cut from that I really did I really tried to like cut it down Um, because at one point it might my audio was over like uh two hours And I I really did cut down what I what I said and I did want to make it clear the points that I was responding to But I I think too especially because because time does eventually become an issue one thing start getting long like this would be the things that you Seemingly reluctantly agreed with me on Don't bother even having those Just play the parts that you either have contention with or the parts that you didn't like Which does bring up a point. There was a strange pattern with your agreements with rags Yeah, I mean the problem you would do. Sorry. I'd like I'll be quick.  I'm right Your your agreements with him seemed very backhanded as in say for example I hated everything about rags and then he said two plus two is four I'd be like well if we consider mathematics I suppose you could definitely Use that in a context where it would be acceptable and it would be like do you agree? you know like yeah, I I completely I completely understand that My approach was it to it was like I didn't want to necessarily go out to disagree with rags on everything because I I don't disagree with rags on everything and yes as you say I could have cut it out But I didn't just want it to be necessarily a complete hammering. But then again on the other hand, maybe Maybe that's what it needed to be in a way to create a cohesive narrative on the on the and back to my my side I I just felt like I wanted to kind of give it as as fair an approach as I can and say Well, you know, he's not wrong about everything and I didn't want And the problem was I didn't want people like when I approached this Uh video. I didn't want people to think oh, he's he's just picking out the points where he Disagrees the rags and he's presenting it in a biased fashion, which once again like I I'm I'm biased to an extent. I'm not gonna completely admit that but on the other hand I didn't want it to go that far into the whole into the whole like just absolutely unequivocal Hammering of him. Yeah, I guess even you're here So so sort of you could like two choices would be one to be like I don't disagree with everything in this video I'm just going to highlight the things I do disagree with or like I said The way I did it with h bomb a guy would would be I just play the clip Say he says a Dark Souls is a game created by blah blah blah this date. Well, I'm just like yep That's true moving on. I mean, yeah, I think you're kind of it's kind of situation with with audiences You're damned if you do and damned if you don't Because if you if you do admit that even if you make that sort of precursor people are still going to think That you're being unreasonable to an extent by not presenting The points that you do agree with in a way, but on the other hand Equally it does does kind of create a bit of an inconsistency with the tone of the video So I kind of I kind of accept like in a way the logic behind both points But but I I still I still kind of like feel that, you know saying, you know I agree with him on this was was a reasonable point of view at the time, although I completely understand if if you feel differently um, you I mean you already sort of mentioned it but like uh Do I won't say anything like what what is your sort of comment on the editing of the video? Like what would you want to say? Yeah It was the first time that I used multiple editors for one video nine, right? Yeah, nine nine in Clinton or you do any editing? um, no, I I Little little fun fact is I've never actually Done visual editing. I always do audio editing um, so that was a grueling task um But but I've never done visual editing mainly because of a few things um, firstly because university Uh, it's very time-consuming and if I want to put out like Long videos on a regular basis, you know, I have to have Some help with that secondly I've lost my train of thoughts. This is why I shouldn't look out the window randomly. Yeah, editing. Um Editing visual editing why don't do it? Secondly, um, it's something that I really don't enjoy um And that may tie into the third point Um, that I do actually have problems with visual processing and I have a tendency to Zone out on a regular basis, especially when dealing with visual cues um So There you go. Those are the three reasons why I'm not very keen on visual editing though. I will I will be taking it up once I get some more time Um, because it's I've never come across it on youtube before you're the first person I've ever seen that has not only an editor Like when you weren't at the point where you hire hire a team for example Like I know there's other people do that but you've got multiple editors in one video Which to me is very strange because you just talked about tone like being important. Yeah As you say it was it was a tonal mess. I mean we've taken up some really like if you I mean you watch my recent videos Um We've taken a very clear like approach to how to the basics of editing like for me Um, I spoke into a lot of people who watched my videos and they say like a bit of like in like You don't want it to get too monotone um So they kind of like it when when there's a different different style as long as it's grounded In some fundamental appeal and some foundation there And so what we've tried to do is establish a very clear foundation and then give a few creative Uh differences and say, you know, that's that's all right And the feedback has improved with regards to like what people think of how ads has worked together But the problem was with that video There was no foundation. Um And my video Sorry, well my video was the foundation, wouldn't it? Oh with regards to editing style Yeah, like how many cuts one would make or what format of of Bonsons and movements Yeah, yeah, not to mention like I do I see where you're coming from but like for example the one where you there was There was about a five seconds Part where you started your commentary while rags was still talking while there was relatively loud music And like you just couldn't hear what was happening. The music was a was a mess. Um I I can say like I completely agree The and I got the feedback and and I I've Taken heed of that And whenever I get a draft through now and the music seems too loud. I'll I'll say back I'll say, you know, we need to we need to turn down the music a little and I've completely like taken out on board music was a mess and there were there were some errors I mean many of them like still did a good job It was just the problem of combining So many different elements Into this new video Into this new style It was it was bound to totally be Very inconsistent and I completely completely concur with the concerns voiced Uh, so that's sort of covered the more I Ironically because of this was gets discussed in the video that I consider the Sort of visuals to be superficial compared to the writing in a film Like quinton had a huge problem with that, uh, but Likewise in your video if the editing is bad and the music is bad and the whatever else As long as the writing is on point. I would still be fine with it Um, so I was going to ask you again just your your your opinion on this. Um I I tend to I I know a couple of big words because I you know, I I like English and stuff But there are some words where I'll be like, oh, I better not use that. I actually Recently rerecorded a line while I've been making my part one because I was like, I don't need to say that That was a little bit much. Um I've only got the one because I I'm not trying to nail you down on this. I just want your perspective.  I was like, uh, I could guess but Like wow and perceptively anodyne. I was like I'm not even sure how much often I use perceptively like I know what it means, but I know I use perceptively all the time admittedly. I do not use anodyne commonly But I use perceptively a lot. Um, I like I like the word perceptively but anodyne. Yeah And uh, yeah, there was a couple of instances like the other one was when you referenced that I had everything It completed his narrative tripling. It was a sort of like oh oh tripling is is uh, it's like uh It's not I'm not asking you to explain it. I'm asking what do you think about the idea that like Do you think that maybe you're using sort of terms and phrases that are just gonna fly right over an audience Maybe maybe that's a that's I mean, that's a fair point. What we've done now is when I sometimes use some more complex words We we throw up a little definition on the screen Um, we we're gonna what we're gonna do this time like, um, the only issue is sometimes we've done it and sometimes been too brief So we'll try and keep it there for a bit So if people want to pause it and read the definition then that's that's good and people say to me they say Oh, I've learned a new word from your video today, and I'm like, well, I think that's uh I think that's a good thing overall if I help expand people's vocabulary Let's do it. Do you want to if you make if you make them look it up? Then they're not learning the word from you I'm still inspiring them to learn. He's a We're learning it because of you in a way go to a dictionary Yeah, I mean They they seem to I That's what we had to do I would stop your video and we had to go to google which which we misspelled the word because no one's used that word And we're we're trying to find out the phrase and that it does it does take away from what you're trying to say when Yeah, people either have to you know when people have to pause to look it up And if they don't look it up and they don't know then they don't know what you're saying Anyway, of course people don't seem to phase by the fact if they have to look it up But equally what we do now is we try and put the definition on the screen In case people are confused. Maybe I should have put like a little Glossary at the at the end of my videos. Maybe in the description No, it's as simple as saying if you want to if you want to use an adjective for like harmless then you could say harmless or anodyne Hmm Because like you know if you were running a channel where you were like the weird of the day is anodyne You explain what it means then you're like all right guys on with the actual video You know, that'll be fine. But if you're trying because the whole point is you're communicating an idea in your video, right? So it's like, yeah, yeah, of course, of course, um, like I do understand that and um, we have tried to It's for me. It's like a quirk in a way That kind of I don't want to just be just delivering a narrative. I do want to have these things and um Even if like in a way Some viewers in practical generally the reception I've got from it is positive But also I do understand that I could do it more efficiently Which is what we try and do now we try and put the definition on screen if it's a bit more of a complex word um Which yeah, I I I feel I feel kind of Kind of helps and you know people kind of enjoy it. I haven't received complaints about it so Obviously just because I haven't received complaints isn't it doesn't mean it's not a problem. But on the other hand um Generally I I I don't I personally don't view it too much as a problem Even though I do accept that obviously there are efficient ways to to to deal with it It's not a big point. It was just something that we noticed I was gonna say we can we can now move on to the the big points I know these are the ones that people wanted to hear so uh, you know, uh, let's get it out of the way So, uh, the best I'll give you an example to work with instead of just, uh, you know some kind of accusation But the idea is that me and rags what it means that we have like 90% of what we have to say is probably going to be more so about him in terms of grievances now Is this bit that you you may remember where uh, I hate everything says that you know People hate porgs. Even though porgs are harmless. They don't even affect the plot and rags His response is that uh, isn't it better if they did affect the plot as opposed to simply existing to make toys You know be more meaningful and the example obviously is he walks where rags is like, yeah He walks are better and I hate everything's like no he walks are worse because they affect the plot so your response is Well, I don't know what I hate everything would say about that, you know And that's an interest that could be a conversation But never mind then that's where that ends because that's as far as it can go and then quinton comes in And says he finds it interesting and I had to re-watch it again to make sure I get the quote down um He says that rags is saying that a film is objectively without value if it sells toys And then he says like how stupid does rags have to be? To not know that star wars has always sold toys the movies have always sold toys And it's the kind of thing where He goes on for like a good two minutes about his history with knowing about the toys and and how we should have seen this And this is just it's like it's got nothing to do with what rags said Okay, I need to think about this And obviously I guess the question comes down to like do you Did you see this when you were editing because you you had a great response to rags And then would you not have seen quintons and been like, oh, that's not really what rags were saying though quinton Yeah, like I don't want to seem hyperbolic But pretty much everything quinton said was either a straw man or a non sequitur Or it was just some random tangent or it was a flat-out lie Okay, give me that I'm just I'm just rereading the script currently Um, because no, I mean if you want my first response. No, it didn't jump out of me um because No, I didn't So it's like to clarify rags is cool with film selling toys. I think I mean, yeah It's like I'm in and quinton even went so far as to say like the films Like he mentioned capitalist You said they weren't yeah, he said that you were like criticizing it for being capitalist when this is star wars and it's like I don't think okay. Okay. I'm just trying to work out what the arguments yielded from um Okay, so rags's point was the sure they were made to sell toys But wouldn't it have been better if they were if they were also to influence the plot And quinton says So the idea of someone saying that the star wars film was quite objectively supposedly morally worse because those you can say it later Oh, sorry. Sorry. I'm just I was just reading to myself Also the idea of someone saying that the star wars film is quote objectively and supposedly morally worse because there are parts intended to sell toys And that's not as much as you've got the script. That's not what he says in the video He says objectively without value as if rags said that Did he say morally that I don't remember him saying This is just this is just a script So you may have like changed the wording in delivery. Yeah, he probably is that his script That was his that's what he wrote. Oh, yeah, if that's what he gave you. That's not what he stuck to Okay Okay, I'm not Okay, so I guess I guess it was it was uh, I guess he kind of reversed it So essentially you were saying it would have been better if they'd influenced the flots Um, and I guess he reversed it and said well because they don't influence the plot You're implying that it's worse because of that. That would be how I How I would interpret his arms He's he said that I don't feel Like a film can have any Value objectively if it sells merchandise. Yeah Okay, let me see if that he says that Is your video right? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And I'm happy to hold up my hands and say, you know, I should have vetted the narrative more tightly It's okay. Well, I can get you the timestamp and also also the fact the fact that it happened, you know Yeah, I get it months ago like Um, and then obviously there's the one I I don't know. Did you check out the timestamps I gave you for the other one? Oh No, I did not well, it's it's okay. I'll just literally like assuming you trust me I'll give you the context of all of it.   No, no, it's fine. Like you don't need to I'll I'll literally just give it to you. It's really simple Yeah, I know I turned I turned the audio off. So I'd be able to yeah, that's fine Clear discussion leave him you're okay. Um, so the the three clips the first one is um rags responding to I hit everything who said the throne room is amazing The whole fight's amazing and rags was like, uh, they didn't even use the force in that fight and then moves on to more criticisms of the throne room and then we go to your video where um winton says the rags, um Complains that uh, there's no use of the force in the fight between luke and kylo And then um, he plays the clip of rags saying they don't even use the force in this fight And then that's it. And um, I think I told you about this like it's yeah, you did tell me about this Quinton did actually mention this to me. Um, because he did I think he watched part of the well I know you watched part of the stream. Uh, he said it was a legitimate mistake And therefore I don't know what else I can say about that like you can you can judge that explanation for yourselves I well if you had said, you know, my mistake, I'm happy to believe you but like I don't have much respect for quinton I don't believe we don't believe quinton.  I mean generally my perspective is that um, it would be such a Pointless thing to to lie about that. I don't see why he would intentionally do that Again like just an idea I think that maybe the editor was supposed to find a clip that represented that and rags never said it So they went with that one and they were like out of context that does sound like it could be referring to it So that solves the problem So it could be the editor but then also Quinton goes on a diatribe about how wrong rags is for saying it when it's it's like he's got nothing Nothing to jump off from so it's like quinton could have been like use this clip. It's good enough I know, um, it was the the it wasn't quinton didn't have any influence Uh in the editing I thought you said he made the mistake Oh, oh, um Yeah, he said to me he made a legitimate mistake So maybe what happened was that he he wrongly set like watch that and then the editor just as you say Picked the clip to fit it. Um, I don't think he edited his own parts I as you said so when he provided his clips, I don't I don't think he edited his own parts I'm pretty certain because what happened was Um, we had to edit his parts in with my parts and therefore the editor the editors did that Um, and therefore just to clarify seems quite likely Quinton had little moments where say like he would say something then clip plays He says something and then he has it would he not have provided some notes like I want you to play this clip here Or was it literally just he gave you lines And there's he must he must have specified where he wanted his lines to play right like how else I can I can I can link you the document and you'll see I can take whatever your word is like it What I'm saying is if you told me To provide some commentary on a part of let's say the new marvel film And then I write out my thing and then I go this is for this scene and then you go Oh, okay, then I'm like play it after eye man says this and then play the second part after you play a clip Of blah blah saying this like Quinton must have done that right because otherwise his words won't have any context No, um because we were following pretty closely chronologically. I'm I can I can check I think And there is a section too like I Snaps his fingers and it's supposed to go to a clip of me saying something So there was some kind of uh, I'm gonna have to ask the editors because I legitimately don't remember um This is this is very this is uh I'm probably still in touch with A few of them. Yeah Um, so I'll what I'll do I I'm I'm really confused now. I've confused myself, admittedly Um, and like how it was made Yeah Yeah, as as said like I I want to be clear that I wasn't happy with the production of the the video and well, you know I was I mean I was happy in some ways, but in the other way. I accept that it is Um inadequate in many of its production values And unfortunately that was kind of the output of just it being the first time I benched into something like that And I'm happy to hold up my hands on that behalf.  That's like a completely reasonable sort of uh progression of Conversation the two examples I gave you the reason I gave you them was so they were so blatant like How did quintin do that by accident? It's like literally someone's saying something and then you just completely change it Yeah, yeah, not even a little bit like rags you you responded to rags properly in the toy one And then quintin just went off on this insane rant that had nothing to do with what rags were saying Yeah, whenever he was on screen, we just knew we were in for a ride to wherever Like me and rags can't know for sure if he was either lying or if he was Just incompetent, but I mean the evidence doesn't look good for him. Let's just put it that way I mean, I understand I understand like why like my not my my knowledge and like my experience with quintin is that Personally, like I don't think he would he would lie about it simply because I don't Think there was that much to gain from lying about it Particularly if you were you're always going to make a response and we always anticipated You're going to make a response and we always knew that, you know, if that was something that was a terrible thing to be caught out on and So yes, I I don't think he would intentionally lie about it mainly because I just think it would be so easy to To pick it out my my the reason I started my youtube channel is that I cynically believe that a lot of youtubers will just try and convince people of a narrative Like I'm trying to dispel them as I respond to different things.  Like those people hate rags And I think that that would work just fine for quintin Who's gonna care about the comments on one of the efap videos quintin can ignore that quintin commented on I showed you Yeah, I think I think one of the things is the is the I do think the saying like oh well Someone's been dishonest or they've manipulated something here That's a reasonable point to go because then you're dealing with the interpretations And that becomes a lot more murky But him outwardly lying about something I don't necessarily Well, of course, you can't confirm more than I I don't You know, I I I I know he said to me it was a mistake um, obviously No, you're not under any obligation to believe that and to be honest like given given like the whole experience Of this back and forth. I wouldn't blame you if you didn't but from my point of view I don't really think he would lie about that because it becomes I don't buy that I don't buy that about quintin for one second. Well, let me ask you this The entire video was him like every time he came on screen He would misrepresent or completely Misunderstand or he would go off on some totally random point like practically every time he was on the screen And there's the thing I understand. He's your friend and he was obviously your guest and you promoted each other Why would you ever want to say? Yeah, he's he's lying. But let me ask you this one question Do you think there's anyone on planet earth that would recommend quintin say? Yes, I lied. You got me Oh, yeah, without a doubt. Nobody would recommend that. That's just a bad move to make I completely understand that that quintin would never openly admit he lied It was just from my perspective likes like thinking about it Um, I I can't ever see him Winningly lie because I think it's such a bad look and I do understand to an extent your point of view that, you know People people are almost driven by the predetermined ideology So they didn't care if the person on their argument side lies for me like I just don't think Quinton's and quintin would do that With with that perspective in mind I totally without a doubt think that he would and that's pretty much as far as we can go and that's okay Yeah, I this wasn't like a one-time thing in this video again like every time Yeah, no, I I do understand like the points about manipulating and misrepresenting And quintin knows that when he says something he'll get away with it for the most part Because the people who see it first will just run with it and they'll take his word for it and they'll go for it Yes, you know, I I I don't I yeah, and I don't once again I don't disagree, but it's just there's a line Where you go from kind of manipulating misrepresenting especially like because we were talking about this This point which was Uh, the merchandising Which you know, you've you've raised a fairly like Decent point about how he's misrepresented that point of view and I Get it out You know this very well, but like did I not ask many times to talk to quintin personally before any of this happened? Oh, yeah, but he's just he's just not What I'm saying is like just to confirm I did give this a chance to be done. Yeah, I can give you I can give you credit for that, but it doesn't doesn't Yeah, I don't I People I am right on the eve. Yeah, I saw it. I saw it.  I get he doesn't know This is what we're saying is that uh, he was motivated to make us look really as bad as he could I mean the thing this thing is the thing is That's that's why I don't think he would willingly lie and um And I understand that the there are points against here like Manipulating misrepresenting then I completely understand those the problem is like when you willingly lie You completely open up yourself to it backfiring and I just don't think he would have logically done that What why not? Because I I don't think in his head um he would He would see it as actually beneficial to lie about something like that No, I think logically they're definitely but would be a huge benefit. It's it's like I said His fan base are gonna get over it. They're not gonna care because he can just say Oh, that's not what I meant. They've taken that out of context I mean, oh, yeah, I completely understand that but if we're talking about like specifically like with this one clip Then I I think that could be a legitimate mistake I I do understand the problem is you have like lying about the facts and then lying about like What can what can be? concluded about the point And I don't think quinton would lie about the facts because I don't think that would be beneficial What you can do is like make these inductive fallacies where you say well because they've said this They must therefore believe this That's that that's something that I do completely like take into account that sarin may may do But but I don't think he would he would lie about the the underlying fact Because I don't think that would be beneficial And I think I mean at least you said he considers it a mistake. At least we've got that Yeah, I mean, yeah, he's not he's not saying you've you've taken out a contest. Um, he says it was a mistake Oh, yeah, what I was saying is that he could um It's almost like I could respond to your video and make you look like a five out of ten or I could Really really lie just just pieces and bobs pure in there and involve some truth and make you look like a two out of ten And I think and I think the latter option I I think the thing is that That um that definitely there are there are ways that you could lie about someone With regards to what can be interpreted from what they said Um, and I do agree there generally my feeling is that I do not think he would have said like um Will it like mindfully especially as it was a I mean that specific instance was a one-off Um, I I do just don't believe that was Well, no, I mean Sorry, both one-offs But the the the two ones I gave you the two blatant ones that were like, I mean the toy the toy one is like that's that's that's different though Because that's him. That's well, that's that's him suggestively lying about Um, what rags was trying to imply? Well, I'll just I'll just lay out what rags says It's more meaningful for them to be important to the plot and that's it and then quinton extrapolates I was a film with objectively without value if it sells toys like that's a cut that's yeah That's more than an inference. Yeah, there gets to a certain point when you're like you're just making shit up Yeah, yeah, and I do I do understand that point of view but It's when you come to the point about inference We can see that he's not like said like For example rags in the with the robust the other example Rags has talked about this example. I know I know but I'm trying to because you said comparatively Both of them and I'm happy to come back to that example, but But if we if we like comparing the two You've got one where he he says ranks said this but ranks didn't yeah on the other hand that once or even implied it Yeah, no no quinton said that yeah Yeah, and I'm not I'm not yeah, and and and that was regards to the throne room um And then you have this one where it's like he said rags. Oh, I thought you were talking about the other thing Oh, I'm so I think that's to clarify I think what you're saying is we can at least see how quinton got to the toys A response while the other one has just been invented Yeah, and and that that was that's my point I I agree with you in in theory, but like it would be like someone saying I own a car and then I go he eats cars It's like well, it's still about cars Yeah, but I still consider it a blatant lie because rags didn't even come close to say I mean sure sure I but I for me it's More like the logical line of this and that's probably why I didn't really pick it up. It's it read it read plausibly To me Unlike the other one, which is just a direct contradiction of what happened um And so I wouldn't necessarily like conflate the two And I I I do not I do not believe what what he's he's done done here obviously like that You know, he's clearly willingly done that But I do believe like the one where he said rags said this and rags didn't actually say that that one's that one I probably would side with him and say it's a mistake I mean you're not gonna want to believe that he's like a piece of shit because I mean you wouldn't necessarily want to be friends With the piece of shit like you've got reasons to assume is a good guy Of course, of course if you if you want to if you know if you want to I mean it's not never okay So if you want to I mean you go go go and hate go and hate him like like I think the feeling is mutual but Oh, well, I mean I have reason to hate him. He has no reason to hate me I don't like a film get over it And I know that's ironic considering the whole reason the all these videos started but literally like Why is he come so hard after me? And it's like oh, it's because I ripped into the last Jedi on my five hours I think I think generally um If you want like the reason why and It's just I think it was because of his his original last Jedi video Um, I think we've had this discussion before Um, he he he just had such a like a I think he got so frustrated with a lot of people's responses to that and a lot of them um Oh, no, I know I know this I know this he I think he just he just like kind of like really got annoyed by people's responses to To his video linking my video to him, which that has nothing to do with me I know and I completely agree. I completely agree that once again, that's not that shouldn't be on you necessarily um, and then what what happened was um The that's the the parody he did of you um, which was a failure and and He again reasons for me to hate him not No, no, no, no once again from his perspective Like his parody was wasn't wasn't meant to like be malicious No, it was kind of taking the I would love I like being as fair as I can right now All right, if I didn't know what I know I'd be like, yeah, absolutely But um, he put out a tweet just a few like a week before you release that parody saying that um He's not interested in listening to a pseudo intellectual British man talk about Star Wars for five hours Now you could be like that's a joke. It's like no, he's already doesn't like me. He's already shooting Yeah, you think it do you think it's an accident that you're in here defending him on his behalf and I mean Yeah, I'm just gonna ask you straight up.  I mean Quinn's just not interested in in the the whole I mean, well, I say that I'm not gonna accept that.  He's not interested in it. No. No. No, I just yeah He goes when he goes through the trouble making the video. I do understand that. Yeah. Yeah, um, and once again like I'm not I'll tell you what I'll tell you what he's interested. He's interested in sniping from a safe place That's why he's in your video. That's why he's on twitter. That's why he won't yeah I gotta admit Tiro. I think he's in your video as opposed to making his own because he felt like that was a good vantage point to shoot from Absolutely, because he know that you would take the majority of the flak for it, which is why you're in here arguably is what's happening right now Which again, like I said, I have a lot of respect for you for being here, by the way I'll take I'll take the flak and No, no, you're not you're not taking the fly like we're not blaming you for him He's he you're you're his scapegoat essentially Yeah, I mean the way he's using you mate I mean, which that's the thing like we're just kind of doing our own things now And that's what the problem is. I mean the thing the the thing is like to me. I I don't really Look at me, sir. Let me clear up my thoughts and I'll try and lay it out like is because I'm getting carried away um Point of being was like at the time quinton um Was was a fairly was a fairly um sizeable channel And someone who I I I was on good terms with always been very friendly to me um I understand Not not the same experience with everyone um He wanted to come my video and he he stated his intention and you're completely you're completely right on this behalf um that that he he kind he wanted to he kind of wanted to do it on my video because um Because he he didn't necessarily like really want to have to deal with on his channel And and I I and I completely admit that uh at the time it was a mutually beneficial thing um because because you know It was a collaboration between someone I like and so I you know, I I still like um and And it was it was something that I wanted to do at the time And to him it was a cathartic moment because he he clearly had a lot That that he wanted to say on the topic and even though some of that stuff is definitely very questionable And I without a doubt understand that um he he was kind of vexed I think by how the situation had transpired and I'm not here to necessarily say like you're you're wrong about the points of view but at the same time I also want to say like it was beneficial for me um in many ways And from my point of view at the time It seemed beneficial to me And I understand that looking at this current scenario. I'm sat in a call um with you um and I'm defending quinton on this point of view I completely understand The given the fact that he doesn't He doesn't seem Doesn't seem to want to talk to you definitely a point of criticism towards him considering he has commented on your videos and that and what I said to moeller before before he did comment on your videos I said quinton has kind of moved on and That kind of got contradicted By the fact that he he he engaged himself again. Yes, and you know and and I I just I I don't know To wind it back down he what we're saying is everything from your end probably looked ship shape But um, there's a there was a lot of stuff going on that he wasn't very candid about I I understand that I understand that um and He's just um I just that whole thing just was just a spiral um, and I think I think it was I think the moment the really like the thing that the the um That kind of pushed it past the point in a return was When he posted the video and I I I accept that he made made that tweet um But chances are he made that tweet on a whim Absolutely My only point was that he threw the first set of stones that were again Because you said like it's just a parody that wasn't even meant to be directed to you It's like oh, it was he has a huge problem It was it was definitely it was definitely it was definitely directed at you like there's no doubt about it um And and like for the record I offered many times talked to him and he said the main reason is that I don't understand What objective means which do you agree with that? After all the conversations we've had about it. We've had a lot of conversation about what is objective I mean, it's one of those one of those things I um Objective is is different to objective value and we I I I think I think the I think that's that's Well, see if someone said objective means elephant toes, I'd be like I'll still talk to you I just want to see how you got there and then we can see what about yeah, yeah, you know But he was just like nope. You don't understand the words so bye. It's like oh That's very open of you And you know you could be like well, why did you why do you care more?  He's like nope. You don't understand words Yeah, and and that's just the beginning before we got to this video Which is just like Quinton gives me no reason to think that he's nothing but reprehensible with how he treats me and rags obviously And you don't have to You don't have to say anything to try and make it better for him. We're literally just saying like Yeah, I you're fine Um, I mean there is a question that I think people would be love to hear your answer to which would be um So considering some of the stuff we brought up and as long as there's at least one thing that you're like, okay Yeah, that's not very accurate What would you say is your capacity? Uh for responsibility as the creator of the video that he is in I platformed him I definitely platformed him on that behalf and and and promoted his part and Without a doubt I share some of that responsibility Uh, I don't I kind of the problem was that it is it is my video And therefore, you know, I have to take some of that equally like, you know, he said what he said um, and my position from it was a position of Ignorance in a way and should I have known better without a doubt? Sure. I should have looked into into more of the details um I was kind of like Not an expert on On star wars and I was like, um, and that's why that's why I call that's why I said quinton. Can you come and help me with? um, this this more star wars focused points um because That's that's that's what I I felt like I I wasn't an expert on and I didn't want to just read a You know read a few star wars wiki articles and pretend that I actually have an investment in it I wanted is someone who who who knew a lot more than I didn't you know quinton Clearly clearly cares a lot about star wars franchise Regardless like of what he said and So, yeah, I take I stake responsibility from the basis that I platformed him. I didn't I wasn't um I wasn't meticulous enough with the points um And also and also the fact that you know, I was I clearly should have known a better Uh with regards to what was being said I kind of just went with it um and um put my faith in him And I did put my faith in I know I I I quinton has done a lot for me as a as a friend as someone I've worked with and I think really the The thing it comes down to is that um He's also he also really likes I hate everything as well. That's another really important point to take in mind I think he just kind of got very um Very annoyed over the response to to it and And it just kind of spiralled for him and and you know, that's that's that and whether that leads to like This then that's fair enough like that's that's what I have to say about it um So in relation, what does it mean to say that you are responsible like, um, what does that mean to you? Well, I mean, what does it mean to me? What would you so uh, if I was Again, because we're different people and mean you and rags are different people If I was in your position, there's probably a few actions I would consider taking um For example at the end of the conversation I had with I hit everything and wolf me and wolf asked if I had everything would tweet out Clarification as in like he spoke to us and the last Jedi isn't as good as he thought and that his video was a bit Of a mess and all this stuff and like he was just like, hmm. Don't really want to do that And we were like, okay, you know, that's completely down to the person So is there any action you want to take for example? And I'm literally just throwing out ideas you can be like why in the world did I do that? But like do you feel the maybe it's with an apology in any way shape or form? Hmm Because obviously you could argue that doesn't rag so an apology to I had everything it's like well that conversation never took place I mean, it's like It's it's what it's one of those things. It's like I think what what kind of riles mean like Quentin to up about this and we watched because we watched the video and Rags video and we felt very strongly particularly about like the character differences and and We we felt very strongly about what rags said And then it became a tit for tat and that that wasn't the right way to go about it without a doubt and Uh as as a video goes, you know, um I I I regret the quality not not being better I regret not wording my points better um And Equally like I'm happy to hold my hands up and say, you know, I could have I could have done better um I don't really necessarily see the point of of of kind of Tweeting tweeting But but like what would I what would I say like taking responsibility is it's like It's a difficult one because you know for me like at the time I felt like what What rags that rags said about I hate everything was like Was like the thing that drove me to have a response And I don't expect rags to apologize for anything he said at all because it is interpretive And well, I so I don't mean to cut you off But I just want to provide some context here like rags and I hate everything I've never had their conversation nor has rags Had any reason to assume that he should he's say for example if someone said rags you've clearly Done present rags with something that we present we could present quintin with I think rags would say yeah my bad Sorry for that point. I didn't mean to misrepresent you. And so I'd happily like apologize for like things that the the I've I've I've said wrong and and the problem is it's hard for me to like Like it's hard for me to apologize on someone else's behalf Like like because because that I think that I I don't think that really achieves much I think I can say sorry for what I've done Um with regards to I'm sure that there would mean a lot there and and obviously like Any anything that I wasn't Clear enough anything that I failed to vet clearly on other people's parts of the videos that has led to misinterpretations That could have been better I am sorry and and I I Wanted to avoid that as much as I could with my video and it's clear that I could have done it better on many fronts and And I I worked to improve myself and my content since then and and obviously um Obviously, there are late parts like there are points that I'm happy with and there are parts that you I don't watch your stream Yeah, I there are parts probably points that you probably watched it and thought, you know, that's a fair point And well, I mean we we would maybe respond to a line of dialogue and then play and we realized it was contextually different We'd say oh whoops my bad like we didn't realize that's what they were saying Yeah, and and and that's fair enough and the main problem that I obviously wasn't scripted though That's why that would happen the main problem that I ever took with round his video was was was the tone um, the I I felt um Had led to a lot of excessive negative reception to I hate everything that could have been avoided And that's the problem that I'll always probably have with it because the the dynamic you could say unfortunately is that it's It's sort of you and rags me and quintin because quintin has more things to say about my video than rags' video Because of the nature of how styles work So this I was going to say like this is more for rags to respond to than me right now what you're saying Yeah, and that's fine rags you rags an interject when he wishes And and for me it was like as someone who knew I hate everything and and someone who who knew what what Like for me, it's the worst like benefit of of the doubt in a way Um, I don't think I hate everything gave you enough to make such character inferences and And and certain phrases and I get it's part of the persona now I do understand that and I should have taken that more into account No, I don't I don't really have a persona in any way that isn't just aesthetic That's fair enough then then in that then in that instance like I I just I just felt um Like if you were to ask me right now what I thought about I hate everything I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't think like negatively of him for the video Is like as I've told moller in the past The biggest thing that I have a problem with I hate everything Is how he handled your conversation with wolf and moller and then how he flipped on it When he was speaking in public. I mean, yeah, to be honest. I just I believe he just kind of I think the thing was I said like Sorry, he cucked Cucked He I think the way the issue is and this was what I what I said earlier the fact that it was done at a the stupidly late time and um, I hate everything Got himself into a position where he was just like Kind of going with it just uh, just because he wanted to get to bed I understand it's just that but he did literally say at one point to me and wolf He's never had such strong arguments about the film before we were like, oh wow, thanks and and honestly, um If if you want my point of view Um, I think he regrets more saying saying that in the first place Um, because I think he kind of understood that that wasn't exactly how he felt not because he was necessarily wrong Because he he was just kind of going off some basic like going with it um to kind of appease you and and In in the given context, um, that that's what I would say Um, it's his biggest regrets. Um, and obviously it's important for people to say their feelings and obviously it's important to have that discussion And to actually have a clear conclusion And I would love for rags and I hate everything to be able to discuss that but I don't think I don't know that's gonna happen either I'll be fine But I think that people might be over playing how I exactly I feel about how I hate everything Especially from the video like the video was just like a thing that I I did and I made it and I put it out and I didn't really Give much thought to I hate everything after that like especially even going into it Well, you didn't intend to respond to this video at first, right? You were sort of just like Your video was there was nothing really wrong with this is no reason to but then we sort of Looked into it and we were like this this is worth responding to Yeah, and that's that's fair enough. I don't I don't blame you for responding to it. Um, really I think the problem was that it was that the video was presented in a way that the people like as I said I I completely understand there are people who watched my video and Made and I probably gave too much credence to unfair character inferences about you rags Equally like I'll hold at my hands and say that um on the other hand like that was kind of the reason why I made the video Um in the first place because what I felt was that you were giving people far too much ammunition to make unfair character inferences about I hate everything Inferences like what? Once again, I I don't have the we I mean we can rewatch the video But it would have just be stuff like rag says he's he's clearly uh Biasly defending it source or trying to make the criticism look more crazy than it is I mean, yeah, I I kind of I kind of felt that given given like, um Given how Like mild like I felt I hate everything's video was Um, I felt the the it was the reaction was disproportionate And there's a thing in the scenario and that's That's what I that's what I felt in the scenario that uh, we had I hate everything watching rags's video live and then he picked out a couple of I'm stamps. He sent them to well rags and then rags was like, oh and then they had a conversation and then rags could would then have the Capacity to be able to I don't know account for Responsibility or apologize or whatever, but obviously none of that's happened for rags We can't do anything about it as far as he knows It's been relatively fair I mean, I I personally disagree, but once again, I'm not I hate everything. I can't I can't like Speak on behalf of him. Like I mean, this is the thing Like having me here is made to speak about my video. Yeah, because it's my video Well, that's that's why I'm trying to veer off it because there's not much we can do with uh Like there's not much we can do about it, but but but if you want to if you want to know like like the I I personally feel the way you the are you handled the the uh, I hate everything video That was the reason why I made the video not necessarily because of of the like outward message Um, it was just because I felt like it was it was leading far too many people giving far too many people to make harsh character inferences And I mean, I spoke to I hate everything about it.  I'd be like, what are you doing? However, if quinton says stuff like Oh, yeah, no, no, no, of course I we're talking about we're talking about right back at the start here Well, yeah, but I don't think because I saw rags this video I don't remember given the impression that rag rags would have said things that would have made people go I'm going after I hate everything now as opposed to that's that's how I that's how I That's how I watched it. But and that's the thing. It's all about It's all about interpretation like I felt at the time.  And once again, if you can get get him into conversation I feel like he wants to kind of move forward and and equally I feel like we want to move forward from this Absolutely The thing is I had in the new video came up Well, yeah, but that's one of the things it's like it's like it's all about getting the final word in I think this this works way better as a final word than another response This is this is better than than anything like I think like it's going to be said because equally when when someone responds they they they have the final word and people go there and then when you respond you have the final word people go here. Um That's what I wanted to get into this conversation and just discuss the differences and once again That's that was the reason and Yeah, so just to clarify though, right? So let's say on the scale You felt the rags did x out of 10 in terms of a bad move against I hit everything Like I'm assuming you'd agree what quintin did back is like more than double as bad Yeah, I mean once again, I think I think the problem I think the problem is as like said with reading re-reading quintin's part was that um was that uh He he's kind of he's kind of It's Misrepresented points in a way It's strange that he would give you something that was his script and then he would deviate it from it in such a Substantial way. Yeah. Once again. I uh I I if you if you want to read the script off the stream, then you're more I believe you I believe yeah, yeah, to be honest like we're happy to um Sort this out with just you like we got nothing to do like quintin has made it clear that you want He doesn't want to settle bad blood between us So we'll just let him fester let him do what he wants Like we don't need to clarify what quintin's intentions even are we've just seen the effect and the Let's just say clear Misunderstandings that could be interpreted as something far more malicious But again, like I would just rather focus on you because you're willing to actually speak to me. Um which again much respect for and uh I suppose to sort of just just to push us a little bit further forward. Um Are you are you are you happy with with what we've discussed both rags and tiaro about this sort of trying to get it sorted? Oh, I'm fine. I mean, yeah, it's fine. I'm Sounded so like depressed Are you yeah, I'm just I'm just it's it's it's like Here's one thing though that I will say I I won't and this was part of the part of the problem I have if I hear everything's video is there are some things that Bug me that I hate to see especially nowadays And one thing that will That will get a reaction out of me are people who make certain statements while trying to assume a position of weakness or victimization People who will say who people who go boo who woes me also, you know dot-to dot-to dot about other people And that's that that's not something that I'll let slide Mm-hmm No, oh, sorry. I'm just I once again. I'm not I'm not I'm just I'm just it is turn. It's it's like I'm not I'm not like I'm I'm just tired. All right I mean, this is all right. Like I'm not I'm not I'm not asking simply and to be honest don't expect to get any No, no, not you not that wasn't about you. Oh, sorry. I'm just I mean there. That's the thing. It's like I completely understand that point of view What can what can you say? It's like I I do agree like you can't overuse it I I think there I think it's just a case like I would love to hear the context behind that sort of stuff and um And I would probably judge it on an individual basis Yeah, I mean, you know, I I really have nothing else to say on this because you've pretty much said everything I would I would hope for you to have said That there are recognizable flaws and that you'd like to sort of sort the moment future and that we all make mistakes I I already know there there are going to be time like I'm going to get more responses as time goes on And there's going to be someone who points out a huge like hypocrisy set of statements I've made and the best thing you can do is is how you respond to it, right? Like and I think you've done really really you've done very respectively and I I can always respect that you want to Uh defend your friends as well I'm sure you kind of had hours of really great like connection and the his experience to us is is far different to yours So yeah, I think one of takeaways would be that from your video There is a huge outpouring of hatred for me Yeah, I'm used to I'm fine with it Is like that that's part of the game that we play here Well, it was a weird one, but it is what it is where there was one that was like I want to punch rags That was like 20 votes, which is like weird my guts That's that's fine. That's fine and Oh, okay, and like I wouldn't say that's fine I mean, no, no, no, sorry. I'm just I'm I'm not not using the fine as an affirm to I'm using it as like I'm accepting your your point of view. Okay. Um it's like I made the video My video was kind of done with with the right intentions Um, and fortunately the road to hell is paved with intentions And there were clearly mistakes where I could have alleviated some of the hatred Equally, um, that was kind of the reason why I felt I wanted to make the video in the first place because um, I'd seen some quite Interesting comments made against I hate everything on the basis of of his video And it kind of and and given the tone of the video of rags. This is video I I I I kind of understood I kind of saw how how it could have how one could have led to the other and equally I should have probably maybe focused more in on on that and and I Understand the the the once again, there were things that said in my video that The kind of that kind of made just as just as bad. Um, ain't even worse and I'm happily happily hold hold my hands up on that But on the other hand like I I still I still do take significant issue with the delivery of the video But that's that's like not saying that that can necessarily be resolved me So this is just one more one more thing I'll get out then which is that uh You you know my content well enough to know that the biggest thing that people will use against me is going to be You know more or is an elitist who thinks that uh the whole objective thing It's just a smokescreen he uses it to argue that his opinions are definitive while everyone else's aren't valid Like that's the the typical response I'll get from many people which is fine because like how could I not? That's there's a very it's a very good start to try and wedge a criticism into my work because it's like oh Yeah, he does say objective. That's probably true. Um, so someone like quintin I would expect to make that video and I would just be like yeah Well, I can just discredit that but like the unfortunate thing is People were making those comments with very high upvotes and I don't even blame them because quintin says as much in your video And it's just like damn it that comes from tro who I actually really like Look at this by my unfortunate position because it's just like that video will serve To uh be a lightning rod for people who hate my work. They'll go there and then they'll be like Yeah, more is a piece of shit who thinks blah blah blah blah and again I'm not saying therefore you need to do xyz all I would say is like maybe throw a word in somewhere in some video Some even a q and a maybe it would be you'd be cool like just so that there's something Referenceable obviously this this video could work as a Referenceable thing it would just be it would be awesome If you said that um, I don't necessarily do that in my analysis I I mean I had a q and a kind didn't quite touch on that um, I was going to make a Follow-up video where I cover some more more controversial videos that one being one of them and I'll probably say a bit more than I heard at one point you are considering taking your video down Yeah, no, what happened was I just I was in a really bad mood that morning um, and Someone you know, someone messaged me about about some stuff and I was just like, you know, fuck that um And then I can consider it and then and then I was like no I won't Um, it was it was quite it was it was more it was one of those things that kind of done It was reactionary Um And Yes, I was I was actually going to do a follow-up where I clarified the points I made Um, because it was clear that there were things that that was said that that didn't come across the way I wanted them to Um, and I have been in planning that for I had planned that probably even to do before your stream came out But um, but it there were just a few too many other topics that I wanted to cover first um, so Yeah, that'll probably when it's covered I'm not there's nothing that I can really like put into the space of a tweet that would summarize my thoughts on that video on my own video Um, but without a doubt there were things that I could do better and I'll probably address them in the future Yeah, literally, I wouldn't even be asking this if not the fact that I'm just I like you and I'm friends with you And so you should be like it'll be so good if it would stop being used Typically without any reason stronger reason because this is the thing you don't say it It's not you saying it it's just the guy in your video who says it So people use your video to do it and so Uh, it would just be awesome if there was some kind of just by the way this is of course, of course And and I'll I'll clarify that and I'll definitely um, I'll definitely Make sure that it's addressed without a doubt and And I I have been kind of Waiting on it. I thought I'd get the stream out the way first Before we we do that. Um, just so I can get some clarity on feelings from people and Yeah, I don't know what else to say Um, well, I mean, you know, I'll I'll say what I've got for closing Then obviously rags could as well if he wants to but uh, I just have a lot of respect for you to come on Because it's it's not easy, especially with To not only a two against one But you're also uh at a disadvantage because you haven't seen all of your video recently Nor have you seen responses recently. Yeah, and you're having to defend potentially two other people one who really is Bloody hard to defend like you've got not much to work with so again Thank you for coming on and um, of course, I'm pretty sure me and you will be friends for a long time with ease Just because of the way you uh, you can port yourself if that's the correct word I'd have to google it Yes, and if there's any impression otherwise, um, I don't really know anything about you I'm pretty neutral towards you I don't like hate you or dislike you or anything Okay, excellent Um, I mean, that's that's that's great. I'll take that as a way And so from there, would you guys like to check out a different video to sort of Uh, I'd say bring this down a bit instead of being more so about a potential drama. You know what I mean? Well, sure. Yeah, sure. Sure. So that would mean out this vox nonsense And I just accidentally made it so now I can't see any of the super chests Yay Is there a way to get that back up? Do you guys know if there is a way I accidentally refresh the page so To get well on your on your stream page, you know, unlike your stream info page at the bottom There should be a list of the super chance. Yeah, that's where they were and then I refresh another blank Huh, um, then it should be Um, it'll be on your it'll be on like a community tab or a channel tab, but it'll have Um, it it does keep all your super chats there. Let me actually go and click and see if I can find it If you go to my channel Then go to No, don't go community super chat. I think I can see it Yeah, something like that. There should there should be an option there Maybe excellent. I can see what I assume is them. Oh wait, October 17th. That's not what I'm looking for 26th. Does it go up? Yes, it does. Excellent. Okay. Um Well, uh, if either of you want to go to the toilet or do anything I'm gonna try and get through these quickly because people have obviously been saying things and we've been an hour and a half in So I'm gonna Try and I'm gonna Use the loo very well Um You see some of these I read them then I'm just like what was the context says slap my hand friends It's like very well On board Um, another recommendation for rags and wolves. Tell them I said hi is Gundam thunderbolt. Both films are on Gundam info There's been a lot of Gundam recommendations I hope that people go with them But obviously when I'll say it like honestly now when people recommend things As a as a creator, you'll probably best put it in a list, but you'll have so many recommendations that it's uh Tough to get through Um, I'm watching you efap beautiful. Good to see you all being friends that that is the the hope and goal And I genuinely like think if time was rewound all the way to the point Where I hit everything was about to make his video I think everything would have gone differently with how everybody's done everything now Um, which is arguably very interesting Uh Metal Gear Solid is a better movie than the last Jedi. It's fair enough Respect for tRO for being chill and debating. I Agree wholeheartedly spider-man 3 is a better movie than the last Jedi. Am I gonna get a lot of those? I'm gonna miss the stream, but you bet. I'll watch the archive. Hope it's a good conversation tRO is a pretty cool dude excellent Uh, good job tRO. Glad you're having a calm and eventful debate with rags more or much better than some guy I know Oh, yeah, major lee who uh, doesn't like me as well. I have a lot of enemies. I think I've told you about this um Ray Starkiller my own theory for episode nine. It's a fair one. Pulp fiction is better than GTA sad adres is better than last Jedi. Uh, here be five dollars. Don't use it all one place guys. Yes. Hi tRO What does narrative tripling mean and uh, oh now now to tripling like uh tripling. I used it if I recall In the context of like a really good example is the good the bad and the ugly. I think that's uh, what it means I'm Bit bit off bit off the game now. I've kind of switched off slightly but um, but that's that's what I probably used it in the context tripling It's quite a common thing because it's like gives it more power in the moment. It's like Because we know that we couldn't find anything for narrative tripling Oh, well, that's probably because I put narrative for it, which was a stupid thing to say But tripling that's I think you probably like uh, it's tripling or power of three Um, that's that's like rule of three or something like that as well. Like I I I know what you mean like three is often Yeah, it's like, you know, it gives gives it more. It's not too much.  Exactly. It's it's it's a popular rhetorical device And then the follow-up was uh more than rags. I'm gonna fanboy stoked for more content from you rags Come wait for that epic tfa review Do you want to do you want to say any comment about upcoming content rags? No Okay, we'll we'll give you a second Tiara it would be an honor if you would join us.  I'm not I'm not an expert Uh, nick was asking. What are you studying? I'm studying politics philosophy and international law with a minor in psychology Are you interested in becoming Superman? Is that the uh overall goal?  I guess I want to do something. Um, and not not just be like having have a normal life. I'm uh I'm I want to want to Leave an impact in a way and uh that requires Taking some risks and learning some from some mistakes Beautiful wonderful. Um Favorite tracks from star wars also prayers for john williams. Um Well, tiara can't answer that question because I don't know if you'd know the Well, do you do you want to answer that question? What which one favorite track from star wars? I don't I don't I don't I do not know their specific names. Oh dear I mean the title track is pretty iconic. I mean you can't really I was gonna say like this is so many tracks I love but dual of the fates would probably be the the one I pick. It's just so epic. Um Dear more I have a playlist named two more and wolf with love from a fan Which is full of tlg videos explaining world building and I was hoping you could rip them apart in a stream as well We've got More than 30 videos in our backlog and it keeps growing because we only cover one per stream We get like five per week. So it's like eventually we're not gonna have Be able to respond. We just what we try and do is sort of um bring on guests And then try and tackle a video that sort of matches them at least a little bit or something that's recently relevant I suppose would be interesting too. So uh, we will do our best to possibly approach some of the ones in that playlist Uh, keep up the great work. Thank you very much. I love your content. Looking forward to episode nine rant It is coming. Um More I should do a five hour crucifixion logical. Well, I mean There's no need. We've uh, we've pretty much talked through it now.  You're doing it best to clean it up now I um, I think I make an analogy for that in the new in the new thing You know the whole idea that it's like you shouldn't what was your take on that tiara that you shouldn't take longer than the content to talk about the content That's the skid enough for me. I already know what you think I think I think we've learned from experience just uh Yeah, you know, it's it's it's a bit of a that's like If there's a lot to say you just got to say and honestly Sometimes it pays to say more because because then you know, it can't be Misinterpreted. Yeah, and that's why I try and that and I think that's what what we what we both try and do Now like even more so now Oh, um, I'm not sure if you have to sometimes Sorry you go. I'm not sure if rags is actually there But literally the the thing we said we came from away from watching the This video of the two streams was the in future. We're both going to try and be more explicit with our language See if definitely and that's why I I've learned a lot too I have to like even now like I'll be like Oh, what if someone thinks I was saying that and although I've I've kind of like created a little logical arc for it where there's like They're always going they're always going to be people who take what you say out of context They're always going to be people who do that and you you cannot account for them And they will they will they will do it Regardless, there's still like a there's still like a certain Way to deliver the information that's going to get like the reasonable people on board and listening And that's kind of what I I'm trying to do that. I'm just trying to get the the main echelon Of of people who who aren't going to listen because I do believe the majority of people are reasonable And well, it's it's a good thing to believe. It's a positive thing to believe Yeah, yeah, well, you know, it's it's it's I it's what I try and reflect In my content and so I I kind of want to just encapsulate that set of people and and um I'm Tired day It's just one of those days. It's one of those days. We'll work through it And and if there are people people always going to talk people are always going to look for reasons to to misinterpret you Misuse your content as well You that that is unavoidable what you have to do is make it as clear as day make it as clear as possible that it's it's not going to be taken out of context and You know, just do everything all the safeguard I'd say that's a fair lesson for everybody Who's making content is it's it's just gonna help you in the long run. It really well Um better to be too thorough than not throw enough I mean me and rags definitely think that way, but I know that a lot of people be like anything over 10 minutes is too long And they're wrong We hate them. They're the worst Anyway, uh showing the love of the jarrods the way of the jarrods love you guys, of course james and thank you for the Hundred dollar reduce. Uh, I actually managed to convince one of my mormon friends that do all the fates was the morm was mormon chanting That's impressive, um And then so the last what is why did tiaro fast forward through rags is mark hamill clips? Um There was a couple of comments. I saw that said that it wasn't fast forwarded for them on the original video But when we played it on here Rags had clips from mark hamill to you know prove a point or whatever and Instead of skipping them or just acknowledging that they existed and moving on from you They were played but in like times three speeds. You couldn't hear what he was saying and it was a good like yeah Like it was just bizarre. Like I don't understand what the idea was generally the the fast forwarding was done because like it was The the point was that mark hamill has has is like you're showing an array of clips To make it very clear what mark hamill's saying and all the clips even though they do they do say like in different ways They're sending home the same message And so it was to try and preserve time, but admittedly Uh, still didn't quite manage to do that. I would describe it as inelegant Because I was I was so confused with what the point of it was Yeah, it would have helped me if those clips had been understandable That's fair enough But yeah, I am if you guys want to I mean that that's pretty convenient By the way that this video has been played from zero to near the end and that's Makes for our whole conversation. Yeah We've discussed this it would have it would have been better if I did like make it more um Efficient definitely there were ways to do it was just the way I was thinking about at the time And so there were better ways to go about it if are you is there anything else either of you'd like to say before we sort of move on Nah, I think that's unless um, if something's brought up later sure, but for now, I'm fine. I'm satisfied for the moment I wait for the bulletins as events warrant the what The bulletins of events warrant. That's what I heard. No I'm good. Okay. Yeah, sure. Uh, tiara Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine. That's fine. So the context for this is vox I don't even know what the hell they were thinking. Uh, everybody like assumes that they were told Obviously, yeah, if you couldn't guys can pop your volume on everybody assumes that they were told by someone to release a marvel related video Like they were like, what should we go with? It's like, uh, I don't know overrated. What's the most overrated thing? Yeah, like it's really overrated and popular and everybody was like the more vulnerable Oh, yeah, yeah, that's the what the reason they give I'm saying like on a meta level Like their writing staff was like, all right. Yes, we got to do like they half this they half ask this video so hard That it's like it's like they didn't they didn't agree, but they're like, well, this is what people want a video on And this is a thing I don't have any like history of vox like what is vox anyway? Do you know what the channel is rags? Some bullshit some bullshit box boxes Vox is a it's it's very weird because they've got like this hot take youtube channel But they're also based on a media company um Which which covers covers the covers the news I think an opinion pieces I could be wrong, but that's I see them a lot on twitter um And super lefty regressive Box media, I think racist sort of it's really I mean they're really Do they do like buzzfeed sort of things or kind of I think they're a step down from us is I mean Yeah, I think I think Vox is that yeah, I think they're they're on the on the left politically um and for some reason their youtube channel is more like uh one of those like Hot takes like yeah, they're media hot of hot takes channel and like I'm I'm a little mcu fanboy But you guys got familiarity with the mcu, right? Yeah, yeah for the most part. I'm I'm fairly I'm fairly knowledgeable. So should we start with the title? Do you think the universe feels empty? I don't even know where one would begin to make that connection. It feels Oh, it's it's hyper dense. I would say Especially the the payoff ones like the avengers films. Oh, yeah I I really enjoy a lot the marvel cinematic films. Um, I'd say probably my favorite is the winter soldier personally um And I I feel the I feel that what I love about it is that just the characters really make make it Because in many ways like the winter soldier is is as traditional as they come um and It's yet completely like Expanded by just the depth of of each character and how they interact and that's what I love about it And that's what I love about a lot of the marvel films that they're actually like So I I think like they they're just taking a A thing that people feel like completely the opposite and then just going against it and so yeah That is almost, you know hot takes they can be That is what yeah, it's like you you could do a thing It's the idea of like doing it before it becomes accepted almost And so the idea is like is this a hot take that the marvel scene matter you feel is empty. It's like, hmm its own sake because um A lot of people did feel that marvel was a little bit arbitrary with its connections at first But like they've been working I I would argue since It's like I think civil war or a bit before that is when they start to really crank up Because Iron Man 3 is mysteriously without any connections to anything really It's like the president gets kidnapped and the world is at threat sort of thing But like no avengers turn up nobody seems to care and it's just like oh, we're doing that again With the the universe sort of doesn't give a shit, but then if you look at stuff like Civil war or winter soldier I think came out before Iron Man 3 interestingly enough But there's more interactions with the characters that we know exist in this world, which is what's important I would say And then events having an effect Uh, you know from the place they started two other places in the world It's like oh, yeah, because this actually happens in this world It's not just arbitrarily that you know movies are taking place at the same time and that nobody gives a shit about each other And again, that's why I'd say the avengers films are the best because You get so many clashes. We are like, oh, it's like watching Dr. Strange at the same time as watching an Iron Man movie whoo, you know all that comic book style like happy fangasm stuff. So Yeah, Robin's so edgy. Here we go. I suppose The Marvel Cinematic Universe is overrated. Oh, that's right. Well, I mean that's a different different to his title, isn't it? Yeah, that's oh Slow down there, buddy. So What do we think about that statement? Qualify it.  It was like, I don't That's first.  Because in a way the the universe is is an interaction of individual films that all differ in their quality And and so what what is there to say about like it's such a general statement You really have you really have to go into the details and then explain how The interaction of each of these films would then would then cause it to be overrated But I doubt I'll do that given it's only nine minutes 39 seconds Yeah, let's see that's already the assumption right it's like Oh, are you gonna tell us what all of the ratings of the films are compared to their actual Assumed quality in some way and then get an average overall or look at audience retentions like no No, that's not what's gonna happen. The funny thing is your best bet So that's what I mean like in terms of structure We've got this is why the marvel universe feels empty and the opening statement is it's overrated And so it's like I'm already disjointed and we've got seven seconds in But uh, there we are all right. This is happening Okay, so why is this not just a steaming pile of clickbait?  They're not out there in the next I was gonna say yes moving on like we're waiting for the You know, I like the fact display parts of videos because you're just like yes, we could skip over these 10 years Seriously, half of these people could disappear and it would still be 148 too many When we asked fox's audience for things they think are overrated marvel and i'm confused Is that really like the justification for why they did this is like wouldn't you want to hang on? That's five upvotes as well I mean, I mean Though the one the one above it has 20. Yeah, like i'm saying like why wouldn't you choose the moe? Why I don't know like what relevance is this It's like I mean, it's not necessarily about which one has the most likes about which one's gonna get the most views In that case, yes, this was an excellent choice, but they didn't need a comment to tell them to do it. Did they? Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's true.  They could have done star star wars is thanks. Abdullah al kamal And dc's movies came up.  They're cheating. That's a 50 is a five is a four a second There you go. Okay. So it was the top comment. That's fair. Absolutely. It was like it was blast I guess there's a lot of hate for the the marvel cinematic universe out there. That's fair enough. I guess Which is why it's important that these videos are made to share why But I I think to a lay person they don't even like think about it as a universe so much as individual like heroes with their own movies Mm-hmm. Because that's how that's certainly how like my my mom and my dad and some other people I know think about it. They don't think about the whole universe. They're like, yeah, dr Strange and iron man and all that there's like they're all in those sections Let's be fair. There are people out there who if you said the incredible hulk is not in the MCU the movie they'd be like Okay. Yeah, I didn't think it was and then you go. No, it is and then they go.  Yeah It's hard to keep track sometimes I suppose It's movies in the United States alone. They've grossed more than 6.5 billion dollars And yet there's something missing when you look at the history of fictional universes and at the MCU in particular It's possible to understand how it could be why is it broken? Oh, so his premise then is we're gonna look at the history of cinematic universes to explain why the MCU is broken Well, yeah, they they they asserted that we it can be fixed without telling us how it's broken It feels empty. It's overrated and now it's broken Which one of these we tackled first or are they all the same thing?  So that's the part I always find interesting about this It's like you can count intros and then establishment of facts before the actual You know meat of the video and it's like man. You're already running out of time. Like gotta gotta kick it up That's a long time to Go back to 1939. No No, I don't know if this is gonna be relevant, dude, but okay.  Look at him. He could he is like pretty well. He's in fuego All right, let's see what they've got the marvel universe It's in marvel mystery comics number seven These characters aren't that well known today But here betty tells namor that the human torch exists establishing continuity And crossover potential This was the start of a new era one in which corporations produced fiction The idea was simple You could use the fame of one property to enhance the audience for another and marvel wasn't alone in recognizing the financial Opportunity I was going to say is he now going to talk about how other people had this idea too Yes, I don't see how this is bad I guess it's in case we don't understand what a cinematic universe could be over the history of it I don't really know why he's explaining the stage, but Now like 20 percent of the video is done I was going to say it would make much more sense to do this if you had an hour's video, maybe Yeah, man Like I think most of us know that marvel movies are big and everyone knows about them and they make lots of money And we all know that the comics go back a long way I figured the the first thing you tackle is uh, how the universe is how the films link to each other and how it's You know, it's it's x y z That'll be a great place to start rather than this is the history of when properties would cross over. It's like, oh dear Well, you're not wrong as far as I know by the way, because I don't know the history of comics I'll just take his word for it. I suppose continuity of crossovers in the 1930s and 40s The green hornet look at that picture on the wall The man on that horse is one of your ancestors in the 1940s The green hornet revealed that the series central character Great reed was the grand nephew of the lone ranger Okay, okay All right, I didn't know that popular. Yeah I don't know that's new for me. I hope you do something about those crooks Just as your pioneer ancestor did Movie studios were thinking about this too when abin and castello met frankenstein It joined the dracula frankenstein and wolfman movie franchise Well, I guess now we're sort of getting closer to the mcu and that we're in film franchises But yeah the monster movies did crossover. I suppose Yeah, yeah, I'm assuming you guys would have known about that at least because I because like van helsing They're frankenstein and dracula were in van helsing Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't care what people say. I like that movie Wait, you wait. You talk about the Hugh Jackman one. Yeah I can't I have not watched that in so long, but I know that that's considered a bad film I genuinely I can't remember it. Well, those people are wrong.  Oh, yeah, I remember that he dips it in like holy water, doesn't he? Holy water. Yeah, and then he shoots the vampire ladies with it All right producing. Yep As is with a goofy comedy it was basically universal studios avengers infinity war but with more running into walls By the 60s This is so weird You know how we we've talked about this before but me and rags basically like every time Oh and when wolf is here, of course, we'll we tackle a video and we'll be like, okay These are the actual things. They're wrong with this one Even though the last one we covered had all these different things wrong and there's all these different things It's like I'm I don't know where to begin with this one like That's like, all right. This is nice background info to have I suppose, but I wish They they're running out of time Yeah, they are they are they need to they kind of need to especially a third of the way done Consider the fact that we're we're willing to watch the whole thing But like the amount of people who are like, yeah, tell me why the marvel Universe is empty people who like hate the MCU even they're gonna be like what the hell's going on Like yeah, I mean, I don't mind setting up premises, but but what? We're nearly a third of the way like you got a you got a hurry It just feels like I I promise I can't see an argument being formed Like if someone can present some premises and like interesting points Then I can probably like maybe like see where they're going and then I can wait it out But this is just like they give me a like a history.   That's a great That sounds like some of the famous person would say Yeah, I think I was well, so I think that's I was I was joking. Fantastic four. I'm trapped, but they don't suspect my real that's mary antoinette said that right Is it I think it's it's a tribute to her. Yeah, she's yeah Um, maybe his parents are he's dying. Yeah, uh, so yeah I have learned That when batman a few which we're getting closer by the way Superheroes combining even though we sort of did the human torch earlier, but hey getting closer to the MCU getting there By the time spider-man got his comic in 1963 He was spending time with the fantastic four and promoting guest appearances from the hulk And this was also when the marvel universe's problems started so 60s is when things went to shit things went I'll tell you man things went to shit in the 60s Yeah, before that everybody knew their place Assuming he kicks up into actual arguments now It was a three-minute intro which I can get over if the rest is solid I'm not sure what the point of it was, but hey Yeah, this snow globe contains a half century of television It's the basis for the tommy westfall universe theory Which some argue might be the biggest fictional universe of all the snow globe appeared on the 80s television show Saint Elsewhere that scene possibly showed that the whole series had taken place Inside a snow globe world imagined by a character named tommy. It's like an autistic kid or something Is that if a show had a crossover with saint elsewhere? That show must have taken place in tommy snow globe two Okay, and every crossover that show had no matter how tangential would be in the snow globe and so on and so on So But how is the marvel okay Overrated or empty just to clarify if i've got this right He's saying that like you know when a show has like say i don't know someone references Buffy in law and order That counts as me because i'm assuming that some of these connections have to be that big As long as it does hide back to saint elsewhere, then it's just uh just a dream in the mind of an autistic kid and That I mean Yeah, I don't know how this actually changes anything It just adds an we get in like a second introduction now because like I don't know what this is leading I will say I guess. Yeah Very hard on this chart. I'm like this would have been you know, this is a graphic that someone had to make so this is I mean the ed seems been pretty good so far.  Okay Okay, so he's like making comparisons. We've got it. So all right like it's like making equivalents basically He's gonna explain how the snow globe will now interfere us into a problem with the mcu. I'm following a lot Crossovers require a bunch of artistic compromises No one wants cheers and I love lucy to be a connected universe It's because a bunch of business decisions connected that's not true I mean Yeah, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with it as long as it's done. Well, I mean, yeah I think a casual nod to something else can be kind of cool Like the idea the american dad and family guy could take place in the same universe like i'm on board with that Like they don't have to have like a direct crossover But I mean it's just like but if everything is like the way they showed it on that On that graphic was that it was linked to a load of other shows That was then linked to the one at the end and a lot of them must have been tangential like the x-files stuff You know like just a character saying man, you're you're more skeptical than scully Who'd be like so basically no relationship at all. Yeah, like how does that damage anything? Why is that? Why would that be a problem if they there's literally no reference? Direct reference at least like who cares there are shows like, you know Buffy and angel take place in each other's universes or a benefit. They have they have crossovers and Episodes that are part ones and part twos that cross the shows which is genuinely a great thing So it's kind of weird that he's just like yeah, this causes problems like Uh, okay I want I mean I'm assuming he's gonna tell us what the problems are at least sometimes the network forced crossovers on producers Other times the producers came up with it Gary Marshall said that the reason that morc from orc knew fonsi from happy days And laverne from laverne and surely was because his son said that fonsi should dream about an alien these crossover Well, that's the writing Yeah, what's that gonna do with the fact that they crossed over Like you could have written that a bit better than saying it was a dream or whatever Oh Oh dear, indeed The whole point is that morc is Like it needs to post a bit because the the end of every morc and Mindy episode ends with morc going back to like the alien overlords and Like making commentary about humans I've never seen it. So I would go strictly off that I just mean in concept the idea that you crossover Isn't inherently going to provide you with bad writing. It's the writer that would do that Yeah, like can you really make fonsi appear in morc and Mindy reasonably? I'd be like, yeah, yeah Sure It's not telling a good story The tommy westfall universe is a thought experiment frazier and the x files don't mix even though they do in tommy westfalls globe Why why can't they mix? I know the tones are different, but that's the idea of you know, so I mean, maybe he's going to reverse the formula and say basically um These things exist in tommy westfells globe And you wouldn't see them together and they probably wouldn't work as a crossover And then he'll say this is the same thing with the marvel cinematic universe. So why would they crossover? Like is he gonna say maybe the something like ant man because it's really uppity happy and comedy like wouldn't mix with winter soldier because it's Almost like an espionage darker toned Thriller. Yeah, that would that would be my hunch. I think he's going to reverse it and say these things don't Don't mix. So why would you do it with models in a magic universe? Well, how come everyone in chairs is so happy and everyone's laughing? And then you go the x files and everything's just Well, I was about to say like that's the nature of a universe if you go to a hospital Or you go to a children's daycare the atmosphere will be different in real life Then how it works, but again, we've just inferred a point that doesn't exist yet. So let's see if he does make it But even at marvel where continuity was planned it became a hassle to maintain Okay Marvel editor and writer lin ween said the problem at marvel was that we suddenly became a business with a bunch of books That stan don't think ever in his heart expected to last more than a couple of years That doesn't mean it's without a solution. I don't know what that point assists Yeah, I Considering that the movies can only tell let's be fair like A few issues of a comic could like one one comic could make one film so And and this is they don't even necessarily go with the comics. They always break away from the comics It's like, I don't know what that I'm not sure what that point helps Maybe the way to solve this is with standalone sequels. Oh, no We didn't bring that up I I don't want to bring it back, but I do not find this statement funny Yaro the the idea that you can only really look at the last jedi as a sequel if you interpret it as a sequel What Yeah We is okay. We could push on 1965 Lee replaced most of the avengers just because the continuity for the original group had become too confusing to deal with This continuity clutter happened in the movies, too I genuinely think we're about to hit that in the mcu. There's so many heroes that have so many abilities and resources But it's gonna get very complicated to maintain But I don't think we've had much of that problem up till now Yeah, I think it's a sense of scale. It was really the thing Iron man kicked off the mcu in 2008 the universe Exposition dump didn't happen until after the credits. Mr. Stark, you become part of a bigger universe I'm sorry exposition dump That's literally just a teaser Yeah, that's not an exposition dump. It's just nick going. Hey It's probably one of those genius things like it was a really good idea that they did that It was it was an incredible like idea like a big key, you know It was it was a very very innovative thing to do and it's It was completely like that seemed a bit aggressive, you know like exposition dump This this this video is a dump.  Yeah Nailed him We excuse right in the middle of the movie. I think our first move Should be calling the Avengers I spent half my life trying to keep this technology out of the hands of the stark I'm sure as hell. I'm not gonna hand deliberate to one now. Okay. These heavy handed editions That's okay. Okay, but that's a reasonable thing to say time to bring out my mcu fanboyness Going just from the films because I think that's the point of the MCU The the opening scene of ant-man establishes that Hank Pym doesn't trust anybody at shield And he wants to protect his patent before they use it for evil basically The film itself is about somebody else discovering The Pym particle and using it to sell it to like terrorists and shit And he has to stop them or he wants to and Because ant-man or Paul Rudd's character is a little bit slow sometimes He's like, hey because we're in the event the veggies of this Why don't we ask them for help and hangpins like have you not paid attention to anything? I've told you like We don't want stark to get the Pym particle because Hank Pym sees stark as a weapons seller This is also brought up in civil war by the way when ant-man is like Hank Pym was right never trust a stark This is a thing Hank Pym does not trust Tony Stark or his father They that's not arbitrary at all That's like the reason the Avengers are not in ant-man because Hank Pym doesn't want to get anywhere near them And this is brought up again in ant-man 2 by the way See that I've already got a problem now because this is the actual substance of his actual video And it's just inaccurate like This is not reasons against it being a full universe or reasons for it being empty. This is reasons for it being strong Yeah, and if anything, you know a guy like me who has a moderate understanding of the MCU was like, yeah, that seems reasonable That makes sense to me And you could be like, no, that's just convenient so that you don't have to have i-man in the film I'd be like, I mean it would be a problem if i-man was in the film working with Hank Pym. That would be a problem Yeah Yeah, like I said, it's it's a problem for i-man 3 like I I did say I don't know why you wouldn't just reference that i-man 3 pretends like there are no other heroes in the universe Like it's kind of an issue because the president gets kidnapped like I said, which would attract the attention of people like I don't know, uh, captain america, for example Captain america Like you probably care if the president was kidnapped Hashtag not my president Or about getting crossover hype not about telling a good story, but there's a bigger problem. That's literally part of the story That's a bigger problem It's like it's for the story not against it, dude All right The rest of this scene is a standard movie fight their universe is only as deep as some great What Spider-man homecoming is the most connected of the singular films. It has so many references to the the What's his name vulture the whole reason he exists as a bad guy is because of the avengers like not just them But the actual film the avengers It was it was I mean at first it was actually like I really enjoyed the fine and about What you guys thought but I really enjoyed homecoming um i-man is in that movie as as vid just said It's totally well done it's really like It you know, it's a standalone film in a way but The how it's intertwined with the rest of the universe is very well done. I I thought it was well I mean, let's be honest here.  This is one scene in the film And he's done it for a joke where he's like this is how skin deep the connections are. It's just merch. It's like no Everything else. He's got merch of iron man right there iron man is in the film I mean, yeah, I I kind of think that He just has to step back and let I just see it as a as a as a cheeky wink Like, you know if it sells some merch on the side like yeah, I mean, obviously I'd expect the actual films with the people that they appear in to sell more merch Yeah, their action figures in their own universe. They established that in one of the tv shows You can buy like all the shit we have for football team exactly the avengers Which is why the universe is genuinely what I would say is like I'm not going to say it's amazing But I think it's strong compared to what it could be Yeah, so I mean selling merch, you know That's what That's that's uh, that's enough of what they do. I mean, so what does this have to do with Mork and Mindy or the history of comic books? You know, like this is clearly a writing critique. Yeah, that was filler. That was filler It's like, I mean look how smart we are with our graphics and our old comic It was it was an attempt for them to like sound knowledgeable to try and give their Yeah, exactly to to give their opinions like foundations where they're actually are none Well, Mork and Mindy appear in the avengers. That's my question I hope so. I hope Mork is it shouldn't have been captain marvel. They should have been like call Mork And a few easter eggs A few easter eggs Peter Parker's classroom has a picture of Bruce Banner in the corner But it's not a transformed universe Why would you why are you treating it like this is that in the merchandise are the only connections It's way