Hello everyone and welcome to the Hyperledger Foundation Healthcare Special Interest Group General Meeting today is June 8th. This meeting is recorded and I just wanted to welcome you all. Thank you for joining this. If you do speak and you want to say something, please just be aware this is what this will be a public video and shared online. So, without any further ado, I would like to welcome any new members if they would like to introduce themselves to the community, share maybe who they are, what they do, why they're interested in this. James, would you like to go first? Absolutely. Good morning. My name is James Davis. I'm from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I'm faculty at Louisiana State University. I teach technology classes. In the business school, I am indeed interested in blockchain for any number of reasons to include bringing that technologies into the classroom. I also do some consulting with Louisiana Department of Health, and I've also been involved for the past year and a half with some mining operations with a with a group that I joined up with and helped start. So, I'm just interested with blockchain all around. Awesome. Thank you, James. Appreciate it. Hi, James. This is Mindy Charles. I'd love to connect with you offline. I also teach health information technology. Well, I teach at the University of Colorado Denver, and I serve on committee for the Colorado Department of Higher Education to determine how best to teach blockchain as a curriculum in Colorado. So, yeah, let's connect offline and I'm happy to share anything that might be helpful to you. I sure love your school would love to connect. Great. Okay, I'll put my contact information in the chat for you. Thank you. Awesome. And for those that may not know me, I'm the chair of the special interest group. I actually just was elected chair, very recently only a couple months ago. And yeah, and this is what this group is all about this networking, learning new things connecting with each other. I think that's really important. So Wendy, thanks for reaching out like that. Come and go members. There's many members, not all of them come to this meeting. Some of them watch the webinar later. But I think it's just important that we continue these relationships with each other because that's how we're all going to learn and grow. So, thank you all. Anybody else want to introduce themselves. Okay, I'm going to go ahead and just get started. And digging into some of the upcoming events and then we'll go into the news article so this week in Austin, Texas, coin desk is hosting the festival of the decentralized world. This is 2022 conference. It'll be pretty big I think there's a few specific events happening during that conference as well on the block Damon and floating point group is hosting a networking and games event. You can register here. There's a password to register it's Lebowski. And on June 10, how 3.0 how decentralization will reinvent healthcare event is also another good event you guys should check out if you're in the area. And again, there's a event in Chicago June 19 through the 23rd, the Drug Information Association Global Conference annual meeting. There's one in Stanford, August 29 to 31. I'm sure there's many other events. These are the ones I have here.  I'd be happy to include them here too. Yes. This is Wendy if I can make the group aware of another event coming up this week. The blockchain technology summit is produced through Canadian universities. It's produced through, I believe today through Saturday, and I will be a thirst. Let me back up on Thursday, I will be speaking to health day, and I'll be speaking about blockchain based dynamic consent. I'd like to join its virtual and admission is really inexpensive. I think it's like $25 25 to $40, but they did wind up some fantastic speakers and I think it's just a great opportunity to expand our knowledge, especially when we realize that blockchain is an international community and it's fantastic opportunity to hear what other organizations around the world are working on. You can join us. Thanks, Wendy. Perfect. That'd be great. I'm rare just need to mention so there's two events coming up for farm ledger. One of them is an open consultation which is going to be held with the European patients forum and the European forum of good clinical practice and that's going to be over in Brussels. And after that farm ledger is going to be well I'm going to be moderating a panel at the European blockchain convention in Barcelona. So happy to share those kind of event details and logins and things as well. Awesome. Thank you Wendy and cured. And if you guys do have access to the agenda and you're willing to do it you can comment your links directly in the agenda page. This way it'll be there for others to see later. I'll put the link in the chat again just so you have access but that's, that's awesome. And from ledger is doing a lot of really important work. So thanks for sharing that any other announcements or events people want to highlight. Okay. Awesome. So I did find a few articles in the last couple weeks that were interesting. And one here is from Andres and Horowitz and I thought this was pretty interesting because it specifically highlights the health care fintech intersection, and they call these pay viters. So provider groups are really health systems are providers that are also acting as insurance companies are fintech companies in some ways. They break it up into many different services. The fintech components of a pay visor that includes insurance products, platform services, care delivery services. And when you look at this really awesome chart here you can see the different companies that are part of this pay visor. So I'm sure you recognize you can recognize a few names here like Oscars big one.  So it's interesting to see how they break out insurance platform services here into no Medicare Medicaid plans to talk about over the counter supplement benefits. Individual market plan so different companies are really focusing on the specific services and not trying to do everything I guess so that's that was pretty interesting. Any, anyone read this article or find it interesting. I haven't read it, but I will. How did, how do they situate these new entrance or yes or smaller entrance with the bank of players, you know, Kaiser Permanente, in fact, most every, not all but many of the large health systems now are aligning themselves with payer organizations. Memorial Hermann Rush etc. You know the big. Most of the big hospital systems now or many of them are aligning with payers, and then you got the classic HMOs where do they fit in this. Right yeah and those major players doesn't look like they're in here, but you're right they are doing that and also I heard Ascension which is I think one of the biggest health systems. They have like a billion dollar venture fund to now so they're acting as investors as well. So, you know, it's pretty interesting to see how it's evolving. We'll continue to watch it. So, for example, and it's the largest, I am the largest provider in America, so where did they seem to, I don't know I'm just curious of how they position these new entrance relative to the giants. Yeah, in the article, it does mention some of the big players for comparing them, but I don't. But did it go into too much detail about that I think. So non health care fintech products can teach us numerous other lessons because they talk about how existing fintech companies. One fintech company plaid, which you may know. I'm doing really well so they're comparing, you know, these companies to plaid for health care very focused making it easier for data sharing interoperability. Well, maybe it's just. Andres and or which is only interested in, you know, early stage because it's business there. That's fair. That's true too. And you know one thing that really got me is this portable health care coverage I do think this is a big gap in our system. You know, for those age 28 to 34 the medium, median employment 10 years 2.8 years. And after that, you know, you have to switch your insurance with your new employer for example and that does seem a little bit like a broken way to handle health care, at least the United States. So yeah I think there's companies working on that too. Interesting to keep track of these companies I would think I would move on and one of the quotes I picked out of that article is the primary battle between every startup and incumbent is whether the startup gets distribution before the incumbent gets innovation. I think that's so true because, like you mentioned, you know, you know in a health group and Kaiser these are the incumbents, but they can innovate to it's not like they can't. They're able to mimic some of the, you know, services or use cases that these fintech companies have. Then it's going to be really hard for those fintech startups to get any distribution or attraction with customers and users. So, next up here is a nature article I saw on. As I mentioned, there were no blockchain specific companies in this article which I thought was kind of a little surprising, unless I missed it but yeah, maybe next time. This article came out in May is about how artificial intelligence is breaking patent law. So the patent system assumes that inventors are human inventions devised by machines require their own IP law and international treaty so we don't have that and I think that's something that we're realizing is AI can create new new algorithms new apps, new drug molecules that can design different inventions really, and we don't have a way of handling or managing that. So, this is one of the biggest threats patent systems has faced. So, I think it's really interesting to watch this because in the blockchain community, there are many companies, or really sometimes even dows that are trying to develop. IP NFTs for example so being able to uniquely identify the owner of an IP using NFTs. And now this brings the question will AI be able to acquire or generate their own NFT patents in the future and how about even work. So, more questions than answers I suppose but I think this article really captures the idea of, you know, how AI will be able to create inventions and what are we going to do, you know, so what is patentable. So, they have a lot of examples in here.  So more comprehensive law reform is preferable so an ideal solution would be for governments to design a bespoke form of IP known as Sue generous law. Such custom built laws are designed to cover types of creative output not addressed by the big four IP doctrines of copyright industrial designs, trademarks and patents. They already incentivize and protect investment in circuit layouts, new varieties of plants and in some jurisdictions databases. Any comments or thoughts on this anyone from the AI space. Okay. Moving on. So coin desk had an article and I just thought this was interesting because many of us might have tried or had Chipotle, but the restaurant the text max chain restaurant is allowing crypto currencies to be used as payment. Actually, 98 different digital currencies. So, Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana included, and they're using the payments platform flex to do that. So just another example of crypto adoption. I haven't myself purchased a burrito and any kind of crypto yet but that might be something I might do sometime soon. Ray, another thing I saw today is that PayPal has enabled the capability to take Bitcoin off its platform and I think you're going to see maybe Revolut in the same thing. So I think it's good for the ecosystem, but 10 years down the line I don't want to be paying 10,000 pounds for a burrito if you know what I mean. That's true. That's true. But yeah, that's a really good example you bring up PayPal for a while was not allowing their users to move their own crypto out of their PayPal accounts. But now they are allowing them to do that. So it's good move for everybody. But yeah, like do I want to spend Bitcoin, especially now. It would say that burrito for a nickel. Yeah, that's true. It won't taste the same Ray won't taste the same. Fair enough. Thanks guys. Next up here is an article from coin telegraph is how crypto volatility affects mental health. And, excuse me, did I stop sharing let me share again. Here we go. Okay, so I thought this was interesting too because we are seeing volatility. I'm sure a lot of people investors who, you know, put everything into crypto might be feeling kind of stressed out, depressed even so they talk about, you know, some of the issues that we're seeing mental health now and it's pretty interesting because you know this is a health care special interest group. So I think talking about mental health is important to here. So they talk about how some investors make specific mistakes, even when equipped with investment knowledge beginners can make bad decisions under emotional pressure. In addition to technical and fundamental analysis the right mental attitude plays an important role in trading under the pressure of emotions rash acts can be committed which usually cause mistakes and serious losses. These mistakes can be divided into several groups. I think I'm just going to highlight these because I think some of us might resonate maybe not or we might know somebody who's who might resonate with these different groups. So first is the gamble, the gambler syndrome and new investors begin to open a large number of transactions without thinking them through premature exit from a deal. So first successful transaction beginners tend to quickly take profits and close the position prematurely. In this case, they can lose part of the profits that they are in this case they lose part of the profits that they could gain dependence on other market participants many traders are guided by the signals and opinions of established market participants that's for sure to obtain the maximum benefit however it is necessary to become independent of these factors. Coming to these coming to terms with losses the cryptocurrency market is very susceptible to emotional trends prices immediately react to a variety of statements and rumors. So won't be possible to get to completely get rid of the influence of emotions. And if you ever use Twitter that's totally true euphoria from the first deal, the first profit gives the trader a positive emotion, which can only push them to be undisciplined. Have any of you experienced any of these in any way. And if you have maybe, you know, try to diversify yourself a little bit in your investments I think that's important. Number one, number one rule for investing is diversification. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, especially cryptocurrencies. But yeah they they talk about the seriousness of this issue. And if you need help, seek help. If you could. Any thoughts on this from anyone. We're going through these pretty quickly. That's good. So, next up here that I had on my list was a hacker noon article titled how the metaverse can transform radical or sorry how the metaverse can transform traditional industries and improve them. And they talk about the healthcare evolution. This was published last week. So for sure there's a lot of buzz about metaverse and blockchain. They go into sort of defining the metaverse, which is helpful for any academic person as well as industry person because the definition is dynamic, as well as the definition of Web three, I think is also pretty dynamic. But they do a pretty good job here.  They talk about D health's decentralized health token, which puts the control and patients hands and incentivizes them to make better healthier choices. Of course this is in theory, right. We know that. And this happens through the ability to monetize their medical assets, their health data and future health activities, which is an excellent motivator for becoming an engaged and active participant in their health journey. So this is a pretty good article. I think easy to share this with people who are getting into the space and trying to understand how blockchain or the metaverse can impact healthcare. So if you haven't read it, I encourage you to do that and maybe share it with some of your, your colleagues as well. And if you didn't know hacker and has a Web three writing competition. So if you're interested in writing, that's another opportunity there for you. Okay. Healthcare it news. I know you've seen this in other places, but Oracle has completed its acquisition of Cerner. So this article is a bit old. There's actually an update to it that has been completed. All the necessary antitrust review has been, you know, all done and approved. So for $28 billion. Oracle now owns Cerner. This is a huge deal because I think Cerner is like number two or three in the marketplace for electronic medical records.  Now that Oracle is major owner of Cerner. We'll see what happens. One thing I read in the article here is they are focusing or the intent to focus on using their voice enabled AI technology to make that the primary interface for EMRs. The EMR system for Cerner. I don't know if that's such a good idea. It seems to me like using voice as a primary input would be quite challenging in a hospital setting, especially if it doesn't work that well. But, you know, any opinions from the group here on how this might. I'm with you Ray as Jordan. I have a lot of tech entrepreneurs I talked to really like this idea and they really think this is where EHRs are headed. But all the doctors I talked to kind of complain about it.  You can't have stuff like that happening as a doctor while you're treating a patient. I think the technology for voice assistant. And in this particular way has a ways to go before it will be really effective in that clinical environment there's there's some places where it probably would work better than others as well, but a broadly applied, you know, kind of dictation style interaction with the HR. I'm guessing right now will not be well received by doctors. I think this is Alicia, I think that I agree with you. And like for example for me that I have an accent. They, it's, it's unreal how the translations or what you know what they're saying comes about. Yeah, I agree with you. I don't think that they're there yet. Well, if I were from the amateur peanut gallery commentaries that Microsoft's nuance is far ahead in this area. But if there is an opportunity, notwithstanding the comments just made about the resistance to acceptance in the professional community. If I were, I would guess I would short the oracle. I mean, Microsoft will end up winning most of that business, I would imagine if there's our much there really is. And even with dictation, most of the medical records that I have read. They're not accurate. So I cannot even imagine with boys. Yeah. But I myself was referring to the acquisition of nuance which is the kind of almost undisputed industry leader in this space. As a biomedical engineer, I'd say the less you talk the less germs you spread. That's a good point too. Yeah, I don't see this being used as, you know, at least initially not the primary mode of input for HR is just wouldn't make sense to me that would be really difficult but maybe for specific use cases or specific types of patients and I don't know. Probably not the ER because in the ER your emergency room you're quickly trying to get things and you're not going to wait for a dictation system to confirm the accuracy of your words. But maybe in some settings it could work. And, and Doug, I guess this is the acquisition you're referring to Microsoft complete acquisition of nuance ushering in a new era of outcomes based. Thanks for mentioning that. Ray, I would say to there's, we should be careful not to be too fast. It's easy to be pessimistic right about new technologies and things and it's, you know, a lot of people were pessimistic about the internet and whether e-commerce would ever become a thing and boy were they wrong right so I mean it's clear that maybe the technology improves in ways that we can't imagine and one day it does become that primary mode of interaction with the HR which if, if that were possible and they could distinguish between, you know, accents and languages and commotion and noise and and have a really high right you know accuracy. That would be amazing. Right. And so maybe in the future if it improves the technology gets good enough maybe it could be but I think, right, right now, I don't think we're there. I agree with you. I think that eventually we'll get there. There is no question about it. I mean, the, the, the technologies there and it's getting better every time. So we'll get there, but they're not there yet. Yeah, I love the optimism. I think you guys are right. I mean, we are in a blockchain health care meeting right now. So I think we're all kind of optimists in general. So, and I think maybe like this, you know, combination of voice and maybe touch screen to confirm what you said the accuracy maybe what'll happen is you'll say something it'll give you three different options of what it thinks you said and then you quickly choose one of them so you don't have to repeat yourself and it gives you options. There's many ways to do it and you're right. We don't know exactly how it's going to look, but there is a event a virtual live event from Oracle, June 9 actually tomorrow. So you can go to this article and link here and you can sign up and anyone can attend. So they're going to be talking about this the future of health care Oracle live so it'll be interesting to see what they mentioned there. All right, thanks for that engagement all appreciate it. There's another article here. Was there anything else on that specifically the voice and Oracle, the acquisition of Surner. Okay, so the next article here. What big farmer really thinks about digital health and I thought this was an interesting read. And Dr Leslie and Fent and believe she's in a pharma company. When I told my colleagues midway through my rather standard pharma career that I would move laterally into our emerging digital health function to a role, remit and structure that was yet to be defined I encountered a lot of well meaning skepticism that if any of you have been in the pharma industry might, you know, feel that as well. But you know talks about the different myths about pharma so myth one so much investment so little to show for it. Most large pharma companies have already invested significantly into digital health. And yet few efforts end up being are having a tangible impact for patients on scale. And it talks about it's not because they're not trying. They are trying and there's plenty of proof of concepts early stage solutions. Many companies get to that point, but then the tricky part is scaling it turning it into a production environment. And I think what the article is saying is that pharma companies don't realize the amount of effort it takes to scale their solutions or their proof of concepts to a functional state. So, that's the first myth. Second is there are so many solutions out there already. Can we just not leverage those. There are lots of solutions. It's important to distinguish wellness or engagement solutions which are ubiquitous from regulated medical grade digital products. So which are known as software as a medical device, or SA MDs. Scaling innovative consumer technology is a challenge in itself but when we once we enter the arena of digital medical devices the endeavor becomes 10 to 100 times more complex and expensive. Recommends that big pharma cannon should look to partner externally or quality digital health players are available. However, in many disease areas these remain elusive and also may have other strategic priorities. Because digital health will never make will never make any money. Well, it's certainly fair to acknowledge that it will take time for digital health companies to start generating revenue, or at least the kinds of revenue that pharma is taking for granted when it comes to medicine blockbusters. Specifically in the area of medic of regulated medical software, we see clear reasons to believe that eventually such products will be able to bring in significant profits. They mentioned paratherapeutics, which went public in 2021 at evaluation of 1.6 billion and sells its three month course of its insomnia app for $899. So that's pretty high, I would say, but great, that's great for them. I would lose sleep over that. I mean, I guess, thanks for this article, I didn't actually read it, but I've got some thoughts on it. Like, obviously, each pharma company has been in competition with one another for irons of years right 10s and 10s and decades and so they have a remit to innovate selectively. And I think that's, that's the problem. I think blockchain will enable transparency and interoperability. I think collaboration is the key. I think if you can collaborate internally within your industry and externally and deliver one solution for patients. I think digital health isn't supposed to really make make money in my opinion it's supposed to better patients lives and have them feeling more empowered about their own data and as well as the information associated with that pharmaceutical ingredient. So I think having an industry wide solution for some of these problems is probably the first step. And then the next step is endorsement regulatory compliance internally within the company. So, I think these are definitely the stereotypes that have been within big pharma in digital health for the last decade or so. Well, I think blockchain isn't silver bullet to kind of fix and cure every single digital health problem, but it's an enabler for interoperability and this, this whole kind of, I guess collaborative approach. You might be kind of means that a rising tide lifts. I think we're just on the cusp of. Oh, sorry. I think we're just on the cusp of kind of we're on the cusp of tackling these problems. Sorry if I cut out Ray. No worries. You just last I heard is your cusp of tackling problems. Yeah, I think blockchain is at the cusp of kind of raising these issues and tackling tackling these issues. Good comments. I agree. Thank you. And change management is impossible at massive organizations and not impossible but it's so hard to drive engagement right so that's that's another barrier as well. Right and blockchain is more than just a technology solution to you have to involve your, your, your financial team, your marketing teams there's a lot about this that it's more. I think personally it's more cultural, rather than technological and that paradigm shift in having a disruptive technology people don't like change right so these are the kind of day to day kind of problems, I guess big farmers facing. Absolutely. Thanks for sharing that the fourth myth here actually is tech companies are so much better at this so this is what the farmers believe. And I mean it's important to note that such challenges are not not exclusive to digital health, but instead extend to any tech powered movement seeking to disrupt established industries. I think it talks about unicorns and Uber. We in pharma, it says have to adjust our expectations that disrupting an industry as regulated fragmented and sensitive as healthcare will take time. We also need to recognize that the high barriers to entry are actually a good thing. Much like in pharma for those that her severe blue ocean markets await with lower levels of competition and near infinite potential stamina however is of the essence. What a sentence. Yeah, I can't argue with that. And finally it mentions the truth right. This is the one truth and the other others remits. It's still going to take a lot more time funds and effort. And mentions here in Germany the pioneering reimbursement pathway for digital health products is showing early promise and offers a blueprint for other nations. In one year, the 20 approved solutions were prescribed 50,000 times and 13 million euro were reimbursed by insurers. Wow. Okay. I didn't know Germany's progress there so that's good to know. It also mentions opting out of digital disruption is not an option. Our choice is in how to shape it. So, you know, everyone has to be part of this digital disruption and just a matter of how we want it to look moving forward. Yeah, so I thought this was a really interesting article. Feel free to read through it full. Any comments on this from any of the pharma players and in this meeting. Okay. So those are the news articles I found. There are three other educational nuggets that are a bit longer maybe and sort of as a broader topics. Here the first one is an HBR Harvard Business Review article on what a Dow can and can't do this goes into depth about what a Dow is how they're built different structures and different examples of decentralized autonomous organizations. They don't specifically focus on health care only that's pretty wide ranging, but I think it's pretty interesting to see what Harvard Business Review thinks about dows and that it is, you know, gaining traction. You know, they talk about in July 2021 Wyoming became the first day in the country to explicitly codify rules around dows wishing to become domiciled in that jurisdiction. So, you know, talk about city down in that case. There's a lot of interesting examples in this. So, yeah, feel free to check that out. Is Wyoming considered a state that is kind of blockchain kind of friendly for development and things like this because I think I've seen quite a lot of things coming out of there. It's easier to develop. Yes, it is actually so Wyoming has been one of the more friendly states for crypto and blockchain in general. And I can read a little bit more here. This rule change means that dows and Wyoming's are considered a distinct form of limited liability company, which grants them a legal personality and confers a wide range of rights, such as limited liability for members. It's definitely one of the positive forward looking states in the US. And this is Wendy I can add to that too so blockchain has been adopted even at the government level for the state of Wyoming. It's Colorado's neighbor to the north and say we often have mixed of groups and individuals who are watching enthusiasts. So, the state of Wyoming put all of its land records on a blockchain. I want to say it was even two years ago. And four years ago they even started voting on a blockchain and two years ago they had widespread so kind of pilot four years ago and two years ago is widespread voting on a blockchain so it's very progressive and hopes to attract a lot of watching business. People there with the whole state is what a half a million people or something it's, it's a small population I don't know what the population is, and it's not progressive for most other things. But they are trying to be a leader in blockchain progress. Yeah, Illinois was also had, which is a very popular state by comparison, was taking a lead in codifying lots of my DAOs but various mechanics around blockchain. Has anyone heard anything about that lately. I haven't but that's interesting I'll look into that Illinois right. Yeah, yeah I mean, obviously, Chicago was the kind of the center of a lot of attention right now in the Midwest and that you know they're pro choice and it's just a lot there's a lot going on in Illinois by comparison. Many millions of people. Yeah, no that's definitely a much bigger state in terms of population for sure. Yeah, I'm going to continue into our educational nuggets here the next one was is episode 95 actually of my podcast if you don't know I have a podcast called health on chained. I've been interviewing people in the blockchain and healthcare space for a couple years now actually, sort of like part time as a hobby, but the latest one was with Alicia shine, who's been active as a consultant in the space for some time now. And she also founded the black blockchain consultants group. So, yeah, I encourage anyone who's interested, check that out. You can see a comment, I think by James yeah so that's this is one podcast I would recommend if there's many others that are in the blockchain space and crypto for sure. But I haven't seen any that are specifically focused on blockchain and healthcare. So, no thank you I have a flight this afternoon and I'm going to enjoy your podcast while I'm traveling thank you. Always the best. Thank you guys appreciate it. And if you have feedback questions I'm always, I was here. The next is another podcast actually which I thought was interesting. It's on supply chain. And it's talking about you know is healthcare catching up to blockchain specifically in drug supply chain. So it's a short. It's like 16 minute podcast. And worth checking out too. It was, I think, let's see. On this episode we trace the progress of blockchain and healthcare with the help of a fruits. I was a Rooney. Assistant professor of operations management at Widener University in Chester, Pennsylvania. So, that's another one. I'm sure there's many others but that's what I caught in my research. And those are all the articles I had prepared. There was someone who sent me an email this week. And you know for the meeting and you just wanted to highlight this. I don't think they're on now but this article about long COVID syndrome and using AI to advance the understanding of long COVID so about it's about how we can take many data data sets and data pieces. In medical records and public data to to understand how long how long COVID is impacting our population. So, it would be great that this would be done in a way that's privacy preserving for individuals and we're not revealing everything, but yeah I haven't looked too much into this, but I left it here for anyone who might be interested. And yeah that's all I have prepared for today but if there's any discussion points you guys would like to chat about happy to do so. We have about 10 minutes left. Anyone have any interesting announcements articles they they found over the last couple weeks. So, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to find another good blockchain course, another maybe eight to 12 weeks. And I just wanted to get your guys opinion on which ones do you think are worth worth doing. I mean, I've done some of the basic ones but I just saw it's quite cool that the the MSc and digital currencies that University of Nicosia in Cyprus and Coinbase scholars are actually sponsoring that 100% if you can apply to do it it's like $10,000 so that's, that's something cool that I found but yeah I'm just, I've seen one at MIT, I've seen one at Harvard business and I just wanted to like get get a consensus where where you think would be good to kind of apply. Yes, many Charles and I can answer that question with one example. University of California, San Diego offers a blockchain health care certificate course. It is virtual. It is, I think it's self paced. I went into lectures so that's why I know about it. And it, they have different experts from blockchain and healthcare around the world teach different segments. And it's very reasonably priced. So that might be an option where you can get some quality education that's been vetted. I received a lot of feedback about how the organizers wanted me to tweak certain things so I felt like it wasn't just kind of a free for all four lectures there was a lot of meaningful content and oversight putting through it to make sure that it's very high quality. I received some official designation, you actually get a certificate of completion from a university so that might be worthwhile to look into. Awesome. Yeah, if you could like, maybe ping me or whack it in a chat. It's often hard to find. Don't worry. Whenever. Whenever. Thank you. So I'm interested in those also I just did an internet search and I did indeed find that course Wendy thank you. I've also been looking into those courses I went through one at UC Berkeley. And I found that one to to be helpful I mean it had a bit but it wasn't the introduction it had some introductory stuff but then it had some some really good additional information a bit more intermediate. And then I'm also looking at one that's going to start in September at Duke. And I had taken several online courses about blockchain and healthcare and I found them to be. It wasn't just that they were outdated, but the people who delivered the content, didn't actually work in blockchain. And so they spoke a lot about theory, but they didn't talk about how messy the actual production and design is, and how it is to meet the regulations in the technology itself. And so I found them to be lacking because the people just didn't have the breadth of knowledge about what the practical and realistic implementations. Yeah, that's what I'm finding like some of the ones that I'm looking at them. They're quite they're quite superficial and they cover a broad range of topics whereas I want something quite juicy and quite meaty to kind of kind of learn from I guess. Yeah, no and thanks thanks for sharing of them. Yeah, you make a good point Wendy that a lot of these courses might be a little outdated, especially because the industry is moving so quickly. And if it would be helpful for you guys I would love to even include somewhere in our confluence page like a list of courses maybe maybe like review them even somehow. Would that be something that would be helpful for everyone here. I would love that. Members would love that. Okay, okay. Like for me, like for me, I'm actually in a looking at introductory ones, my background is in healthcare. But I want to learn a lot more. And one of the things that I've been looking at is that all the courses like. And Wendy, they are. They're not about the practice, they're not about, you know, is concepts and things but you know how do you apply it. You know how do you get him into a project. So, so that's one of the things that I've been looking at and I cannot find anything that is not just the Oracle, or that is also not up to date. It would be great if you know if there is a list of things that you actually that you guys actually recommend, because when you make this kind of investment you want to make sure that you get something out of it. Exactly. And quite honestly with my background in health information technology and James my PhD is in health information technology. I worked for many years in healthcare environments. And so, when we as like a healthcare special interest group, we talk about healthcare, we always have to put our technology into the ecosystem of how healthcare is actually delivered. And what systems do they already have and how do we integrate blockchain with their existing system. As far as we're aware they're just detailed risk assessments, there are as conservative environment they're tremendous regulations and so this is part of the context that needs to be in any course as well and that we have to have kind of a cautious approach about how we think about this information in that healthcare ecosystem. And the biggest complaint that I have with some of the course materials thus far is that they've been delivered by people who didn't work in healthcare environments and they talk a lot about theory. But they just don't understand like, how would this compare with what type of security is already in any HR, or some people say, Oh, you need to verify that doctors aren't falsifying medical records. And it's like, wait a minute, you know how many doctors are going to jeopardize their medical licenses and harm patients. And how is this different than the audit trail that's actually much more in any HR that's actually much more sophisticated than what a blockchain offers. So it's having the right perspective in the right context and maybe we need to develop a course because we have more expertise in this group, then many organizations offer that offer courses. And I think that there are so many things within healthcare that people don't think about. And, you know, my, my background is seeing a lot of different things from hospital to insurance to employers to patients. So, my, my experience is very well rounded. And, you know, I have a lot of ideas of things that could be done, but the courses that are out there, I just don't see how they can be implemented in things that are actually really needed. And they would be actually very, you know, in the, in the financial part would, would be very profitable. And to include, you know, savings for the, for the employer, knowledge for the patient, as well as a lot of savings, you know, through the insurance companies. I mean, it is, is there is a lot of things that could be done. I just don't see, and I cannot find some, you know, a course or something that actually I can say, yeah, I can use this. And I have some friends that have gotten their, their masters in in healthcare informatics. And they, they tell me, I've gone back to clinical because there is no, I can use this thing. I can't, you know, there is, I mean, I make more money actually as a practitioner than going into tech in this area. So it would be great if we have a list of actually good courses or create something that actually is practical and that you can apply. Yeah, and thanks for sharing that everybody I will definitely look for a list. And if there isn't one I'll try to make a list for us as well and for the community I think that I'm glad you mentioned that I didn't know that was a problem until now so Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm in Seattle. And actually, after the pandemic, after the pandemic, we had a really good group for entrepreneurs for healthcare.  And they're changing it because it didn't, you know, the people couldn't get together and as doing zoom meetings, kind of, I don't know, it just kind of fizzle out. But there is a lot of here in Seattle there is a lot of interest, you know, and into into healthcare and innovation. And I'm so glad that you raised this issue to because we hear a lot of ignorance on international committees that we're on and sometimes at conferences. For example, last year, I was on a panel where the chair of the panel was from John Hopkins promoted himself as a blockchain healthcare expert and he was talking about how problematic it is for patients to do mining and keep a crypto wallet in order to interact with their health and I was like, what planet are you on? This is for blockchain and healthcare. And it was really, really disappointing for him to talk about the use of public blockchains for as the only mechanism for dealing with healthcare. And he was like, please, you know, there. But the thing is, the thing is that when the people will hear that and they will remember it and that's the stuff that we need to kind of avoid doing that's crazy. And I think that the other thing is that when you look about even global because I have participated in a lot of, you know, through the pandemic and all that we participate in a lot of global meetings. And I realize that countries are not the same. And people do not deal with healthcare the same way in the United States that in the UK, or any other place. So it's kind of like you have to focus on what is it that you want to do for a certain area and make it happen. And it might be that some of that would work in another country. But there are a lot of, you know, the systems are totally different. It's all about how, you know, an EMR works in England, or in Italy or whatever, or in the United States. So I think that there is so much to actually figure out what problem you want to solve and actually focus on that. And then from there, see what could be extrapolated into other places. Yeah, I agree with all of you on education needs to keep happening basically and good education, particularly and I think that's this is part of it. I want to thank you all for joining today and for continuing to support this for the new members and old really appreciate it. Thanks for joining and we'll see you June 22nd in two weeks, same time. Thank you all. Thank you.