Felly mae'n gweithio i'w Michael. Yn amser o'n gweithio, James. Mae'n gweithio'n gweithio. Mwysi gael i'w. Rydyn ni'n galw'r gwahoddiad drwg, mewn ddull yn tynnu'n perthyn, rydyn ni wedi'i dywedd i'w ddechrau'n gweithio'n ddweudio'n gweithio. Rydyn ni'n ddull yn ddull yn ddull yn ddechrau, mae wedi'u ddull am fy mreitio, mae wedi'u ddweudio'n ddweudio. Rydyn ni wedi'u ddweudio'r ddweudio, mae wedi'u ddweudio'n ddweudio, mae wedi'u ddych chi'n meddwl, ddweudio'n ddweudio'n ddweudio. I stallf I was saying too love myself. And who have you been? Have I been? Keep myself as a part of myself. I've been all rightHi I'm ok just life's live isn't it? I try to each day take care of myself. You know I have to be mindful of who I am and what I can do, what I't a can't do. I think my life today is about reaction. I can so easily runArm R ANNOUNCER reaction with resentment but I try to speak from my heart. mae'r ffordd o'r gwaith yn ystyried, mae'n tryn o'n rhoi'n i'n meddwl a'n ei wneud. Yna'r ffordd o'n rhoi'n i'n meddwl. Byddwn i ddim yn rhywbeth fel Piaol yn y gwirion. Beth mae'r cymdeithas, cymdeithio cymdeithas? Mae'r cymdeithio'n cymdeith. Mae'r cymdeithio er mwyn o'i lleol, mae'n cymdeithi ymddugos cerddo. Mae'r cymdeithio'n cymdeithio. Ond yna'r cymdeithio, mae'n cymdeithio i'ch cymdeithio. I'm really into the, so I've wrote a book called Sins of Fathers, I'm not plugging it, but the reason I've put Sins of Fathers is because the ancestral side of my life from my father's father was suicide, violence, sexual addiction, alcohol addiction, not drugs because they wasn't into drugs, I know my father was a drug smuggler, and I think I inherited that, so that behaviour was apparent in me from a very, very early age. And I just think it increased my trauma, so I was a very traumatised kid, yeah, I was James, yeah. What is, where did you grow up? I was born in South, I was born in South London, not far from where we are now, in a place called Stockwell, Clapham. My father's from Battersea, my mother was from South East London, sort of the elephant, Bermondsy round there, and I was born in Stockwell, but my father at a very young age, when I was about seven, he'd been married four times, my dad, and this was his second marriage, and he had three children in this marriage. And I think he wanted us to get us out of London to give us a chance to, we moved to Surrey, and Surrey was Surrey, and we talked about 50 odd years ago, so it was a culture shock to me, but I spent a lot of my years in Surrey. What is, did you get abused, was it sex? Between five and six, and then it happened again with the same individual when I was about eight or nine, he was a babysitter, so it happened three or four times, but three or four times too many James, you know. Yeah, it's difficult. See when you spoke about your father being a drug smuggler, this and that, do you think karma plays a part as well, then your kids end up becoming addicts as well? Well I don't, I think karma does play a part, I think that there's, we've reaped what we saw James, so I think what we do has an effect on our children's children. So I think what my dad done, the criminal element, the fraternity of people he was around, you know it creates a character, and I do believe there's no free lunches. So yeah, whether you want to call it karma, yeah karma ain't a bad word, but I think it does create a knock on effect to the next generations. Do you come from a big family, Michael? Yeah, I'm from a very huge family on my parents, my mother's side, my grandmother I think there was 11 children, and my grandfather I think there was 14, something like that. So my grandparents were from a massive family and so I've got lots of cousins and aunts and uncles and people I don't even know. But on the immediate family, my father had three sisters, there was lots of children now, and my mother had five brothers and sisters and there was lots of cousins there. And we're now, me and my sister, we have about, I've got four children, she's got five, and there's nine grandchildren. It's a big-ass family, mate, Cora. It's a big-ass family. When did you realise your dad was active because he was friends with the great trainwobbles and stuff like that? Very much so. I mean all the great trainwobbles was his mates. And all that old sort of fraternity in London, back then they called it old school, like the Freddie Formans of the World. You know, he knew the Crachwins of Richardson's frecky phrase, and he was all his mates. And when I first really, he's funny as kids, I mean, you teach a kid French at five, he's fluent by seven or eight. So we have an awareness of what's going on. And in our subconscious mind, I could see certain things about my old man. Like he was pretty violent a couple of times, not to us, but I see it happen twice in the street.  I wouldn't say he meant to do it, it was just, you know, it was his territory, it was his turf, it was what he'd done. And he whacked his fella, and the geezer run away. And as a fella run round the corner, sod's law, he fell on the car that I was sitting in, I was about eight or nine. So I see this very bloodied face against the window, frightened the life out of me. My father come round the corner, see the geezer in the car, went to hit him again, dang, I screamed. Something like that happened. We have spoken about it, we did speak about it. And he grabbed me in his arms and he started to cry and say, son, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. So, yeah, that's what I knew, and then I see him doing some, I was about 14, I was in the garage, he was making number plates. And then I used to meet his friends and maybe see him in the newspapers. So the subconscious mind was aware, so we was living a light to be honest with you, because he didn't portray himself as a villain where we lived in Surrey. He portrayed himself as an antique dealer, so it was always something that, you know, we had to keep our mouth shut. So he was friends with the rich and the clear, so he doesn't stand with one firm, he was just... No, he was an handy boy, the old man, he could have a right old fight, the old man.  Can you have a fight? Have you robbed the bank? Have you smuggled drugs? It just came with the territory. So, yeah, he was handy. I think they all respected the old man on the cobbles. What is it that you started getting into trouble yourself, Michael? Well, I went to a nice school. Pave that? No, but it was in Surrey and it was a good school. My children went to private schools, not that he'd done them any good. So I was, yeah, I went to a nice school, it was a rugby school. It was geared up for sort of A-level students. But at the age of 13 or 14, I excelled at sport, I liked rugby, swimming and all things like that, and athletics. But I didn't get school. My sister and my brother were extremely bright, so was my father. But I didn't get it, I couldn't concentrate, I couldn't listen. And I started to realise I was different. Is that sick? That could have come into it, James, but it was concentration level. So that was where the trauma you'd went through as a kid? Maybe, James, it could have had something to do with it, or... There's loads of medical names for it today, but I would say I was just dysfunctional and I didn't connect. But I was looking at pretty girls, I couldn't wait to have a cigarette, I couldn't wait to get drunk. And I'm talking about 13, 14. So the manifestation of the trauma started to present itself and it didn't want to concentrate in school. It didn't want to be at school. I was at it at school. I had a sandwich round at school as a kid, taking money at school. And then I started feeding when I was about 14 for the pretty girls in the village. And then before I knew it, I activated myself into early drug addiction. Round about 17, I started puffing and sniffing cocaine. And then I got the flavour for money. So I got arrested a few times when I was a teenager for silly things. And then I got arrested for and installing property, a huge amount of stolen property when I was about 20. And that was the first time I went into prison. What was President Leake for the first time for you? Well, it was funny because... I'm not saying my dad was the elite gangster of London because he weren't. But everyone knew him and he had a reputation. So I had an identity crisis because I used to be Brian's son. And I was Michael.  So when I went into prison, most people knew my father. So there was always some teabags coming down or someone had something for you. There was always a bit of help and you're Brian's son. I think I rebelled against that. But the first time I walked into prison was in Brixton. You could have a drink in Brixton, then you could have food every day and you'd have a booze.  Imagine everyone drunk in the nick. And we used to puff all the time. But the first time I went in there, there was a Delausin system. So they slinged you in a room, you're naked.  And it was a bit of a shock. I thought, OK, now what's going on here? And as soon as I got on the wing, there was sort of availability of a friendship with people who knew my dad and my new kids in there. But it was a bit of a shock. I was only on Remarne for a little while then, but it was a shock. Did you fear as if you had to make a reputation for yourself as you were second called Brian's kid? Maybe, subconsciously maybe. But I was confused about my old man because the pedestal that he sort of trade put him on. I didn't see that in him. I saw his weakness. I saw myself. And that's why I know it's a spiritual concept. You call it DNA. I think it's spiritual. So what I was seeing in him and didn't like about myself. But he was a tough boy. And I suppose there was that thing about walking in his shadow. And I always called him for help. I was from the ages of about 19 to about 24. I kept getting in fights. Terrible fights. People were getting hurt. I was getting hurt. And I would always go to me dead for a backup. Which weren't really cool. But you draw your sword, don't you? You can't lose. But if your dad or uncles or brothers get a good reputation, you tend to utilise that. To your advantage even though it's the wrong advantage because you kind of push the boundaries. Do that extra little bit of damage. Do that extra turn thinking your dad knows the top lawyers. Thinking that somebody will square it up anyway so there's never any backlash. But it still restresses that your dad would have went through because your dad would have seen the product his self and you. Even though you can see your faults in your dad, he would have seen that and you because you went down that route of addictions, of prisons. How did your dad treat you when you were going into prison? Was he embarrassed? Was he shocked? Or was he just accepted because that was a life that he knew? No, because the format of play was when we left London this part of his family because my three elder siblings from his first marriage, his first wife died. She was a lovely lady Betty and there was Christine, Brian and Terry. So Terry was the youngest of his three then he was a very violent kid and he used to walk about a rat in his pocket and he was the image of my father. And little Brian, I don't mean to disrespect him but that was his name, little Brian. He looked like my father, he walked like my father, and he got a 10 for arm robbery back in the day in the 80s. And he said to me a little while ago he said, what do you think the old man said to me when he come to visit me? So I said, what's that Brian, what are you doing here? And he said, dad, what are you talking about?  So he wasn't happy about him being in prison. He certainly weren't happy about me being in the nick because he tried even harder with me, with my schooling, with the way we lived. We had a nice home. So it was all there, but I don't think your environment leads you not to be a criminal. I think it was in me. And so when I became in me, he didn't like it. No, he didn't like it at all. Who went to spend first your dad in the 70s? Yeah, my dad was... I don't know if you've ever heard of a guy who's a guy called Joe Powell. So that was my dad's partner. So Joe and my dad were partners for many, many years. And if they were still alive, I wouldn't be telling you these stories. But, excuse me, my father and Joe were involved with the Americans. There was a guy called Alex Steen who was involved with the tickets in the West End. And he knew a guy called Wasall who was friends with Joe Bugano, the five families in America. And my dad and Joe were very friendly with the English people. And my dad and Joe went out to America. I think they was on their toes. I think they was wanted by the police or something like that. And they got involved and they met all the five families. And there was a mutual respect there. And I'm not saying that they'd done this, but from an introduction, I'm not saying it was the families of the mafia. I'm not shopping anybody. But what came out of it in the early 80s, and it weren't really known in London then, to be honest with you, James, started with cannabis out of Italy, Holland, Spain and Morocco. And that was my dad and Joe in the 80s. And then alleged there was an altercation and someone got shot. I don't know who it was, so don't ask me any questions about that. It was alleged, it was an allegation. And I think that sort of made things a little bit sour. But I was on the peripherals messing about because copious amounts of money around. So you get a lure to it. I got a lure to it, I loved it. And then I got myself in a bit of trouble myself. And then my father and Joe, the end of their sort of reign came in the late 80s when they was arrested for a ton of puff. And something happened and they walked free, but they was told there and then, by the drug squad, whoever it was, drop it out. You've reigned for a long time. We're going to nick you. So that's what I was told because they got out of a situation which was a bit saucy. They say that there was something to do with whatever it was. It don't matter what it was. And I think that was the end of their reign and then I went to work with my father. How was your dad smuggling the graft in? I think they come from lorries from Europe. And I think they all got their transport, how they do it. It was coming from Belgium and Holland, I believe. And out of Spain. What you're talking then back in the 70s, 80s for a key up of 1,800 quid? Yeah, I think it was about 700 or 800 quid, I think. And then it changed. It was like gold, wasn't it? Was it hash? The first one they got was quite funny. Sorry, it was a Lebanese. It's hilarious. It was obviously done specially for this job because it was quite a regular thing. It was labelled, I won't tell you what the name of it was because of its MO, but it was all in White Hesse and Sax. It used to come regular. It used to be 300 or 400 kg at the time. And so that went on for a number of years. Did you smoke then?  I've been at it, yeah. I've been at it since I was about 17, puffy. Nice to love to puff. What was that, a slap in the wrist? A broad back in the day, was it not in the 70s and 80s? Cos you're not by your way out if you get caught with a shutload of hash. No, I think back in the day, if you was nicked, you was nicked. But I think it was a new thing. Yeah, they're more lenient than the sentences back then. I think so. I think what it is, this is how I view it. I mean, if criminals get involved with robbing banks, or bank robberies, or pavement work, I think then the police or the government say, right, get on them and they make an example of them. But I think early days in London, hash ease wasn't really a thing that I think they were on straight away. But once it built its momentum, and once it became a financial gain to criminals, then I think that they sort of tightened down on it. And the maximum sentence, I think, was 14 years. Was that starting to be a turn-on for you then, seeing all the money, the power, the attention? Yeah, I think what it was, James, is... You know, I'm not a kiss and tell, but I've got loads of stories. Obviously we all have where we come from. But for me, the brokenness of the... It's hard for many people to admit this, but I will because it's my story. But I think the brokenness of Michael, that trauma, that sort of wayward father, that lie that was in my head, even as a young man they used to have the sex shops in the West End. And I was only 17 and I used to go and pick up the money for them. So I was allured by the West End drugs, sorry, porn shops, pornographic shops. So I was in it, they were doing a long firm, which was they was defrauding money. So I used to see it all. And I think my dad said to me, I think he knew in the back of his mind that I was going to be at it like him. So when they went in the cannabis and I used to see money being counted, and not that he would do it to show me, I suppose I became trusted, and I kept my mouth shut. So, yeah, I fancied it strongly. What's the most you've ever counted, though? Oh, James. I was nicked for about 10 million pounds of cannabis when I got nicked later on. So, yeah, a lot of money. I can't remember what it was, James. Yeah, it takes hours and hours if you're counting it over a couple of hundred bags. But I imagine with your calibre it's... We're counting a lot. Yeah, but I imagine with the money machine as well. Yeah, there's things like that in there eventually that we turn to. But my dad and Joe, it was a little bit like... not to decrym at all, but I don't think... no one understood the drug game. I think they were very fortunate that they found a way which was cool to work under. So their transport was obviously good, but I'm not about to say what's right or wrong. I don't know who it was and who was involved. But, you know, so the amount of money that was involved in and whatever, but as we progressed and we got into our own organisation, then, yeah, counting money was a specialised thing that I never used to do after that. It used to be given and cleaned and... So you were becoming active and your dad was okay with you being involved in the family trade kind of thing in the underworld? Well, I think what the old man done, was to have his trouble with Joe, and I do believe they was falsely tried. There was four of them and they was falsely tried. I don't think it was what the police said and the customs, so I think they quite rightly got acquitted of that. But I think with the... with the pressure of thinking they've slipped the noose, even if they was guilty or not guilty, which I believe they was not guilty, for a number of years. They must have been very clever what they was doing to get away with it for so long. But I found a thing the other day that him and Joe, Joe and my father was on the top ten list for, you know, to Nickham for a number of years over the drugs and they must have been doing it very well. And when they slipped the noose this time and then I got involved, I think my dad sort of was happy as well that he was getting old. I think he could trust me. I was around some really good people in London and the operations that they sort of opened up, the doors opened up the door.  And I fitted those those three things. I enjoyed it. What age was your dad at that time? When the old man started to slow down he was I was 34, 35 the old man was probably in his he was about 60, 62 my age now. It's crazy though that there's no amount of money that ever makes you quit. In that life it's always disaster and destruction. There's no get out, there's no 10 million quid, 20 million quid then I'll buy my house and I can do what I want. It's just pure greed. It's just nothing ever changes. It's always the same stories though. When did you go to Spain in your 30s? When did you go to Spain in your 30s? No, I went to Spain in your 20s. I was nicked. Funny enough I see the guy's son the other day. His name was Wayne this guy. He was my pal. I felt a bit emotional, sorry. We were young terror waves together. We were doing some business just around the corner here. We got... It wasn't massive business but we was messing about with a bit of cocaine and the police came on us and we was in this massive, this crazy car chase. Coy could drive this kid and he was a sweet man. He was a big man, he was a strong man. He fitted the bill as a criminal but I always used to see his heart. He had a really gentle heart on this kid. Lovely boy he was. He passed away about seven years ago tragically. He misunderstood this kid. I loved him a lot, this guy. We fell out in the end but I loved him. I met his son after 20 years and his grandson. I met his grandson on Friday which I'm very happy about. Back to your question Spain. We had this mad car chase where we were chased by three or four police cars, helicopters. There's all sort of stuff in the car. It was locked in the steering wheel and there was another ounce of coke which I managed to get out of the car window. It wasn't, I'm not saying it weren't mine because I'm a goody goody. It just happened to, didn't happen to be mine. I just happened to be in the car and although I had helped him do a few things but we smashed into this concrete pillar doing about 50 mile an hour. He went through the window screen I busted me near me angle the car went up in the air and I think where he hit the wheel, the dry up the steering wheel and I think the drugs was in there so it constantined so they didn't find it straight away and the only thing they found was an ounce which had been slung out of the car which they never saw but they saw them and see it land. So I'm in a wheelchair he's strapped up like that. We go to, we get near, go to Brixton I don't think they'd found all the sort of stuff. I don't think so anyway. I get a bit of bowel at judging chambers. He was badly wanted this kid and he justified that I got out of it really. Listen, I'm not saying I've had nothing to do with me I'm not saying that I'm earlier than now but on that particular time I got the right result and I slipped. So I was on a wheelchair, come out in the nick and what everyone done in the 80s they used to go down the Valpeha because it was the famous five down there Ronnie Knight, Freddie Foreman and all them people so I went down there, I was wanted by the police I went down there in 1983 so that's when I was in Marbella it was totally different then, it was fantastic and I sort of, I've done a few naughty things there to keep myself going but something really tragic happened to me when I was there in 83, 84 so I was wanted down there for a year I was being naughty so you know as you do when you're wanted by the police you've got to keep going I messed about up into France and to Germany I won't say what I'd done but I was getting a few quid and then my brother came down who was the angel of the family incredible young kid this was Martin his name was and my grandfather he had days to go he had cancer so my mother sent my brother down to be with me while my grandfather died because I was wanted in Spain we used a bit of cocaine he wasn't a drug user really like to puff he had an argument about my dad because my dad was seeing another woman and he was heartbroken about that so was I and at two o'clock in the morning he had this mad urge to leave so he walked out of my apartment up on the lower gulf just behind the Marlborough Port of Enorth's ball ring I went and got him gave him the car, said come on he drove off in the car got the Malaga airport sadly and he got killed stone dead blesses up so that was like I woke up in the morning and on the mirror a beautiful thing he said I love you I love you in Vaseline I've still got the mirror today but I can't find it at the moment and I looked at this mirror and I thought wow what's going on here and I went to look for him I searched the airport all my friends no one knew he'd died he never met his son his girlfriend was six months pregnant so that was tragic but that was my life in Spain in the 80s How does that play a massive part in your mind then did that make you question your life or did it just make you feel you with anger to sell more drugs make more money take more drugs or did you ever think at that time I'm going to change for the better two great questions the latter I went mad but there was something inside me you know that little voice sometimes marks your card don't do it but it's so soft that little voice the voice in the head is okay I'm going to do it so I went from destruction to destruction to destruction not being able to sort of you know I'd guilt that I'd killed him it's just the way it goes you know what I mean so I turned a cocaine I used to scream at God why have you done to me why have you taken him he was a beautiful son I'm not only just saying it because he was my brother but he was one of the nicest people I've ever met in my life but I turned to drugs I'd go up to the cemetery pour champagne over his thing and put ecstasy tablets down there as if he gets you it was insane we done that as well one of the family members died four years ago and we were taking lines off the coffin and you're thinking you're doing a good thing but I know people's died over those and at the parties that they've shown nose and shit people are bang on it they're bang on it and then they use it that as an excuse it's their birthday or it's Christmas or it's a certain day people look for any excuse to take drugs I believe and it's sad that we should do the opposite we should learn to heal we should learn to work on myself to become better not do the thing of destruction we don't know how to handle death we're brought at school grief, we mourn death but really in reality we should celebrate it because life is precious and it can be difficult so when you went from destruction to destruction did your dad see this or were you kind of hiding away because you were in Spain? no I came home when he in fact a good friend of yours I believe is a guy called Paul Ferris so Paul was I call him Paul's surrogate father he's a man called Arthur Sutty he was a Dean Martin lookalike he used to smoke us a guy, he's very handsome and Paul knows him well so I got bought up by the Sutty's as well as my father so Arthur came out to Spain to get me to bring me home and bring the coffee home they bought Martin home and Arthur bought me home but Arthur was wanted as well so we came back into the UK we thought we was public enemy we weren't we wasn't what they was looking for and we got through we came home on the boat and we walked through and as I landed in the UK three days after my brother died then my grandfather died so my mother buried her father and her son on the same day so that had an effect on me with my past traumas and these aren't excuses, they're just my realities I wish I'd have had the nows or the knowledge to think you've got to change this mine will want you the one in his life but it was a soft voice saying it but the nutty voice went no, I'm going to destruct I'm going to destruct and so my choice of drugs was cocaine and I suppose I don't want to turn my affairs as illegal women because they were lovely girls as well I've got to be truthful with you I had two affairs which was really wrong I had a number of affairs but these two were so that's what I'd done, I had an affair with my wife's then best friend she's a lovely girl, she was my friend very attractive, very kind I thought she was the fix it never worked it made it more destructive I was lost I was completely lost I really think I had a breakdown and all but I never went that macho thing you don't have to go to the hospital, we ain't got to do this I sort of done it myself I went back to my wife she was putting me on the valiant for about three months and I was trying to medicate myself to come off this fear, this drama I thought I was losing my brains I'd slept with my mate's wife well his girlfriend she was my wife's best friend mine had gone and the popularity that I think I used to enjoy was quite a well-liked kid I was a money getter I suppose I could have a bit of a fight but I didn't like hurting people but you know we went for a stage where that did happen crazy arguments and fights and stabbing all that sort of stuff and I found myself maruned on an island that I put myself on and it was an island of destruction I lost all sense of thing of how to love I couldn't hear anything nice anyone would say to me my mother was traumatised my dad went off and run off with his womb this other lady who we had a child with so the destruction in the family this once beautiful family was now completely destroyed my dad left my mother my brother had died and I was wanted by the police and it was madness same as your dad losing the son getting the money having affairs he didn't know how to deal with the trauma the pain but you've also got to take into consideration the trauma and pain that you used caused by certain drugs also the destruction that's happened to families and how everything is connected how everything makes you open your eyes but you're 21 years clean now what's your story with the page 3 girl who helped you get your shit together Samantha Fox so I I abbreviated for you James so I've left Tracy after the affair with a friend we had three children together beautiful children in my life so I had to break down my dad came out of the nick I came out of the nick and it was all sort of money problems all that going on so he said to me listen he said I've got an idea he said you want to go back out of Spain so I said yeah but I was sort of I weren't 100% but I weren't like I was I got clean then and I went out to Spain and was that to do more graft was that after your 12? no this is prior to that so before that? yeah this is prior so when I got nicked in the 80s I went to prison I came out my and had died I took copious amounts of drugs I had an affair with my wife's best friend I had a sort of a breakdown my dad came to see me and said listen you've got to go back on your feet blah blah blah so when I started a breakdown I just hated myself I changed that what I'd done to my wife's friend what I'd done to my wife what I'd done to other people so there was always a nice heart but the nutty brain was it was powerful it was addicted it knew no wrong because of the abuse and that ain't an excuse because I take responsibility for my own actions I don't do it the day you put it like that so I went out to Spain and I met a lovely girl called Daniela whose father had restaurants down on the coast of Fwengarola sorry Mihaas, Marbella all along there and I don't know what happened but it was like as if she was sent to me from the destruction and the heart I had caused everyone this lovely young lady appeared she was from Naples Italian and we had a connection and we had a connection and she was wonderful and she was like my she was like a nurse she really took care of me and I got back on my feet and walloped I went a graft properly and so her friend was Samantha Fox so when I got arrested in Devon for this last situation I was involved with Samantha Fox she was part of a church in Knightsbridge called Holy Trinity Brompton and she'd become a Christian and she was on fire for recovery for getting well and she had her own damage whatever that is Sam knows your lovely girl and my wife the Italian, we weren't married then but we got married she went to see her she was just wanted me out of prison she was thinking of everything as you do what can I do to help him so she went to see Sam and Sam was part of this church and so she'd come down some out of the fox she'd done some great work for me in the prison she'd done a lot of charity work we raised money she had her in the chap all the chaps were there looking she was Samantha Fox she must have been in after prison cells on the wall so that was how she got into and she introduced me to this stuff that I do in the prison so before you got your 12 you and your dad got your $15 million quads worth what we done in the February sorry let me get this right in the February we was alleged we was charged for an importation that got bought in the Bristol channel and it was a massive operation but we wasn't totally involved with it we was just trying to do someone a favour well I say our favour we was involved but it wasn't our shout this one we had nothing to do with it other than trying to get it into the country so they say and it got aborted in the Bristol channel so they let it go and they put a huge observation on us I was seen on a boat which was ridiculous I went on a boat when the thing got aborted I was seen on this boat they didn't know it was me I was all sort of camouflage I shouldn't have even been there you were on the boat with the gear? no no no I got on the boat they towed it into Swansea Arba and I was with a funny guy he was a European guy he was a killer we used to call him Boris the bastard and he used to have this big crucifix he was an odd character we have to go we have to find out what's happened foolishly we go on to the boat which is being under observation by customs and excise I thought I was doing the right thing I've ballied up, I had a scarf on me I parked the car three or four miles away but listen they can follow you for four miles but it was that anxiety addict where's our money, what's going on let's investigate it everyone crept away I went on the boat the police let it go because they couldn't find anything and they put this operation on us in all it was about 18 months and then they nicked us all down in Biddiford it came in on a boat, on a fishing boat we got arrested for four and a half time that's a big bit of intelligence to put on somebody and that was enough to get you a conviction get you a 10 plus we got 12 and a half years we was quoted to having a fine of three million quid I think it was due six years the fine got massively reduced there was an informant involved with the case we looked like getting out of it on a point of law but that never happened we done the crime, you do the time and so we all got 12 and a half years there was nine of us arrested there was a fishing boat a fishmonger and the four principals Dennis Le Monier I won't be telling you this if it wasn't documented but Dennis Le Monier was the French connection me, me old man and a guy called Peter that was Peter from Peter was from Surrey but he was alright Peter the French connection in Peter as always a local boys somewhere but he lived out there, he lived out in Biddiford so there was a snatch involved in the camp as well though it was an informant because the amount of cannabis that was attached to this was that your biggest one? core James you're pushing the boat out a bit but yeah it was, yeah it was it's your call, your call but it was attached to a huge consignment this was excuse me it come from it come from a lot farther than Morocco and I think what they do they break the cannabis down and it goes around the world to different venues I don't know what the the exact amount was will I do but I can't say that it was huge and I think we was participating in probably about four or five different entries into different parts of Europe and around the world so we was one of many other enterprises but I suppose with my dad they wanted my dad but I don't think my dad bought it on this I think the surveillance and the informant come from abroad how when you've got that addiction problems, sex addiction, drug addiction power money when that's all coming in how many people did you have around you at that time? well on the work level yeah when you were flying high when you think you were flying high but that's when you had your most problems and trauma when you had all the external shit but did you have floods of people what would be your best friend and then what I'm trying to talk to you on is when you thought you were flying high when you had everything how many people did you have around you and you get your 12 how many of those people are still around you well at that particular time there was a lot of people around who you think you're getting a few quid but the people I was with they were good standing comrades we'd been around for a number of years together and because of the intensity of the crime and you've got to be with people you trust because if they're in police stations you've got to keep your mouth shut so at that particular time we was a good solid team and when we got nicked and we got sentenced then the people who remained I knew would remain but a scenario happened to me like that further on in my life when I had everything and had a thousand people around me and when I lost everything people were still good to me but a lot of people sort of just step back what age was your dad when he got the 12 the old man when he got the 12 he was hilarious my father he said that the judge just sentenced me to death they wanted him the old man my dad so it was in 1993 he was excuse me he was born in 31 so I think he was about 62 93 so during 93 born in 631 yeah so he was 62 he came out of prison when he was nearly 70 so you both were dubbed up together using the same cell two years did they ever say to you I've let you down or was it just part and parcel of the game kind of just laugh off mentality for my son that would be the last thing on my mind is to get them involved if I was active still and I was to get them involved because of the knowledge that I know now and how fucked up that life is if I was active then probably it's the difficult one because then you think get them in the family trade making my crust but when you break it all down I fuck knows how I've seen the world differently I don't know but when you see the trauma, when you see the pain you get an understanding wow man he's probably destroying everybody else's so your dad must have felt apart that your dad's in his 60s he's in the same cell as his son there must come a moment where you think I've done wrong here, I've fucked up yeah I think for my dad where he had that opposite he was fearful but fearless so he was spoiled at all so he didn't fancy being in prison he always kept his mouth shut my dad but it was always an angle for my father I was always looking for an angle to say he was a war child and so it was me who gallantly said your 62 I'll take this on the chin because it was although it was his introduction this was my shout it was me who created this it wasn't it but it was through his introductions so I had a responsibility but even at that if I'd have been my dad I think I'd have said son you've got three children growing up I'll take this on the chin and I think he did at one stage think like that but as the rot of the prison sets in and the cobwebs and the cold and the reality is set in he sort of spun it that he was the older one and I'd be home in five, six years and plus it was hard for him to get out of it and me it was very hard for one of us to take the fall but it was disgust and it was resentments, there was anger we sat about each other in the cell we got high in the cell together he never used to smoke cannabis until he was in the nick so I'd get high with him, sing with him but I saw a side of him that I didn't like and he obviously sees things in me I didn't like but at the end of the day we were stuck at the hip no matter what I did the W's up together do you think your sail was bogged as well? maybe early days early days but he was it was hard work two years I'd done it with him he aggravated the life out of me so it was a possible deal on there for either him to take the blame one gets away or you take the blame but both of you just end up doing it together well I think there was there but when we looked at it it was just exactly like your dad by the way fucking like for me looking from the outside and this is what I do so for me looking at the outside in your mind it's your turn your dad's been caught you're thinking right maybe I should take the blame but still part of your mind is thinking I've got three kids your dad should take the blame so both of you were looking for angles out and the funny thing is any one of yous would have been happy for any one of yous to take the fall absolutely but he had to be worked out but both of yous are too stubborn too we were but in the end stubbornness prevailed and then you know what we went to the mercy of the courts in the end there was maybe a chance to run with it but look do you know what I'm so happy that I went to prison well because it was the start of the change in my life I was very blessed in the nick that I found something that was a lot more I'm not religious but I have a faith and my faith is in God it is in the church but I like the the side of it that is the thing called the Holy Spirit they all talk about spirituality and the air to breathe the beauty of nature so I believe that there's something out there that not only can tell me is a set of rules to change but I think it comes to living us because I've experienced that and I'm not only of the now and I'll get it wrong badly and so I got introduced to something in a chapel via Samantha Fox via my first wife Daniela they came along they got me involved with a church I spoke to the guy called Nicky Gumball he's a great guy Nicky Gumball and he's the home of Alpha which is in Knightsbridge and they do so much around the world they work with the homeless they work with a drug addict everybody, debt great church and it's worldwide now great great great team and I had the privilege of knowing the people who run it which was lovely Emmie Wilson was a very dear friend so we phoned up Nicky Gumball very very posh you know and I've got on the phone to him but he'd heard about me because Daniela and Samantha Fox they prayed for me and you know what I felt a bit different when they was praying for me but I thought it was delusional but God's omnipresent he's everywhere so we then phoned up Nicky Gumball I was looking at the Mall on Sunday in the Nick and I see the church that Daniela and Samantha Fox was going to in Knightsbridge so I went down to the chaplain always looking at me at an angle I went down to the chaplain and I said phone up this anyway he's phoned up you can't get through to him a bit like yourself James and they got him and I spoke to him he sent five people down and this might sound weird corny or not real or it might sound a desperate I was desperate maybe I was desperate but I was a man of many marks you wouldn't have seen how desperate I was I used to think on my feet and there was always a move but I was open to something and they prayed in the chapel and I definitely definitely definitely experienced something that didn't have a value that I didn't understand although I understood what the value was after it happened but at that particular time something moved in the atmosphere something touched me and I thought my God it's real and I don't know what happened people manifest in loads of different ways I just got the simplicity of a touch of love of peace and the word that entered my head was hope and that was the start of me my quest to change it was many years ago and it's been after me to change but that was my first and now for Imprison started which is a Christianity course in prison which has gone round the world because when you were in prison there was other prisoners laughing but there was also some crying when you were going through this transition what you mean mocking me absolutely they could say what they do for you then to be a drug addict drug smuggler breaking up a relationship that you've ever been in to then try to find some acceptance to find trying to get rid of the trauma to find some peace like how hard was that for you to then seeing the world differently when they used to say it shout out RCs for chapel in Swellside what did they use to shout? RCs for chapel RCs no RCs RC for chapel so that's what they used to shout now on my wing there was probably 200 people 180 people only four went to chapel so I used to say to the prison officer do me a favour mate can you just come round to the cell and say it's church I said you're shouting over the tanwed and all my mates used to shout out you're going to church Michael because of the experience that I'd felt in that chapel in Exeter and this movement of the spirit around the prisons working with addictions I had to go no one ever said it to my face but I knew that there were sniggers but it was my recovery and because it was life changing that particular moment there's a man in the bible called David King David and he was a rascal and he was the king and he killed his best friend and slept with his wife I'm not condoning that but God said he's a man after my own heart and when David shouts out to God he simplified it saying to him whether you believe this or not I'm just saying what he says in the bible that we desire the truth out in a most being and I think our in a most being is in that deep part of where we're attached to our mother that really deep dark that place our soul which can get really crusty dirty painful and I think that's where I got touched by this thing that was far greater than me so that's how I understood it and when I got touched by that what it gave me was something that could help me change and I could be a better person and I could be kind and I could like myself if I was a part of me that I did like but I was consumed with addiction consumed with aggression anger, pride greed, lust so this was my journey of change so I had to go to church every time they said I'll seize the chapel so how did your dad treat you when you're doing that transition you're trying to make changes in your life he came with me because he always had that sort of he's belief I mean I've always believed I used to pray to God to get me cannabis home I'd say if you do get this one home I'll never do it again so the madness was there I always respected church but the old man got touched by it as well excuse me but he was a very bright man so he always believed in it but it sort of ebbed away from my dad it was like a good feel factor he liked it and this course became huge I mean there was one guy in Uganda who'd done the course I met him three years ago he was on death row for 26 years Dunlifthrope in prisons got reprieved and now works for the Ugandan minister sorry he was a Ugandan minister it was a political coup he was on death row for 26 years saw Alffrin prisons done it and they gave him his job back in the government and I met him three years ago and I thought to myself my God you know as much as you can work or do business and see it grow this was a move of the spirit that saved that man from being killed in the nick I mean that's incredible and so that confirms to me that what we started has bore fruit for people to get salvation to change I'm offering anybody to change it doesn't matter if you focus your energy into religion I know people's went down the Christianity route and if they're focusing on that and it's getting them to stop doing bad things then so be it I'm very open to everything when did you tell your dad about your abuse was it a young age or did you ever tell your dad? never told him nah why? cos it would have really got really angry and I didn't want to hurt my mother but did I tell my mum it was the end of her life I think I might have told my mum but I couldn't tell him he would have been I don't know I just chose not to and do you know what it was really weird because I was in denial about it I started to believe it never happened and then I went into some therapy about 20 years ago just up the road here and when he started to unpack it and tell me what effect that has on a child of my age that things that the girl done to me I repeated as I got older not to other people to myself so it did have an effect on me it did claim a righteousness which it wasn't righteous it became part of me not a righteousness that's the wrong word but it claimed part of my system it functioned in me and I'm not saying it because I want to get out of jail card 3 my stuff I've done that women but it claimed stickers to me and it had a profound effect on how I thought how I had sex I've never abused women sexually but I've been very abusive emotionally which I don't do today so I have changed but I'm pleased that I found a way out I really am it's been easy for me how did you learn how to forgive how did I learn how to forgive that's a very hard part in life to learn how to forgive people to eventually accept to then move on it can be difficult did you learn how to forgive or are you still going through that process do you know what I don't think I've forgiven myself totally but because I've done things which I'm not happy about I've found it easy to forgive other people because of my own behaviour and so that helped me to forgive my forgiveness today I've had to forgive a number of people I've had to have a lot of forgiveness so I'm alright with the forgiveness but I have to work at it still I can still get carried away someone stole a huge amount of money off me about 14 years ago and it caused me a lot of aggravation and if I want every now and again I can go oh yeah but what I do is I accept it I look at my part in it I blamed him I never stole the money but I blamed him but my part was why trust him why all these lovely friends and family who were my friends why did I trust him this guy with their money my ignorance, my greed because I played a part so forgiveness for me is a lot easier a lot easier for me because I've had to learn it and I've had to teach myself but I have to do it, not daily but I have to concentrate on it when it pops up How did you get through your 12? I was a crazy addict so I was in the church and I knew everyone in the nick so as much as I was in the church I used to still have the fun I mean I stopped drinking and taking drugs How many years and your sentence? A year So very early? Very early, yeah but I still used to have the enjoyment we used to set up charity events in the nick we had Ray Reid and the Snoop the Player come down to play for us down in Exeter we had Samantha Fox come in the prison she presented some of the walls it was fantastic, we had all that on video I stole the video, I called murders I called murders but so, yeah and so that happened and I used it to it weren't easy because there's a like we say there's a mock with it there's a challenge with it but if you take the power on of what does exist in recovery you begin to like yourself you get clean there's more of an alignment in oneself so that's how I got through it through my faith and plus I knew everybody, every nick we was in I was playing football in the gyms we set up a big charity in a decap prison down in Kent where we was working with Mencap so we used to go out we used to get money for them we used to do all sorts of things do charity events we used to do boot fairs we used to do Father Christmas we used to do food ampers and I was always busy take your mind off the pain about how many different jails were you in Meiko? I've done a number of jails in all my city in all I've done Exeter Swellside, Maesden, Blanty, Lachmere I've done five prisons Brixton, Wons, I've done about seven and East Shirts, I've been in eight different prisons over my career so you've met a lot of naughty bastards how was that, did anybody have a there's not many people changing in prison did you have a did anybody ever set you take under a wing to try and create change as well for you? I'll tell you what one of the funniest things that happened to me in the nick was when I went to Maesden Reggie Cray was there and he knew my father and I wasn't sort of taken back that it was Reggie Cray I'd seen these people for years but from the and Winston Silcott I don't even know Winston Silcott he was arrested for which he got a knock guilty on the murder of PC Blakelock so it was a big crime so you always have images of these people what you think they're like Winston was the most loveliest guy he was proved he was not guilty but the image of him in my head prior to meeting him you think wow he's this guy he's a smashing guy and Reggie Cray and I was away with lots of London villains and they were great fun great football matches but there was one situation when I met Reg and he adhered to me because of my faith he wrote about in his book that he believed I was a Christian so we used to work the cleaning together on the landings me and Reg and he loved celebrities I introduced him to the Sex Pistols he was going to do some work with them on their album there was a guy the drummer from Pink Floyd he sent his drums into it a drum stick into him he had a big following bridge massive letters every day he used to get but we became acquainted I used to go into his cell and we prayed together and one of the biggest things about that with Reg was fun with Reggie Cray and he was a character and he'd done wrong we know he'd done wrong but he served his time he'd done 30 for a year in a Nick Reg and I don't think he was what they say he was so I got into his mental side of his life and his spiritual side of his life and I found him very interesting and I used to help him and then when Daniela, my wife she left me when I was in jail and she met someone so that was a big test of my faith how was that for you because knowing that you had done wrong when relationships before to then get a taste of your own medicine what tripped in was I was devastated because I loved her but I had Tracy and the children which I always don't think I ever really left so that was in the relationship she was a young girl very pretty, very kind she'd been very kind to me Daniela she was of Catholic Italian descent so she had that very sort of Italian Catholic way about her but I think there was an acceptance before it happened I think subconsciously I was pushing her away but when it happened I went and got drunk after being clean I went and got drunk on the landing I went and got drunk and so that night I was in my cell I lost the plot I embarrassed myself shouting out a window but the following day Reg come and got me and he said let's go over to church Michael and we went to the church and he said you need to forgive him so I'd never really understand I understood it but it was verbalised to me so me and Reg prayed I prayed Roe and the fellow I'm not saying it went away but because I loved and cared about her it made it easier for me because my love for her was pure she'd been very kind to me she'd been very honest with me so I tried to return that by not being spoiled self-seeking because they were about they wanted to go listen to you I knew the fellow you know what I learnt to forgive and I got through it and I was getting through it but she remained in my heart for years because I genuinely loved her so when my friend came to see me he said we can't stand this I said I don't want you to do anything about it he said why not because I genuinely love her and words came out of my mouth I thought wow I'm changing so I blessed her it weren't easy but I blessed her was that when you realised you were starting to make changes instead of trying to get revenge and attack both anger and vengeance and calculations and when you started putting all your focus on to you and understanding that forgiveness is key to then moving on in life you're a great interviewer son very good sorry to call you son so yeah I can see it still affects you though you spoke about a lot of stuff you spoke about losing your brother you spoke about bringing yourself with your father I can still see pain with you but this one I can see has triggered you the most I tell you why because it brought it all to a head for me but the most painful experience for me was my brother dying and I I tell you what the look on my face then was I felt warmth about her because we're still friends but it hurt me but you said something to me a few minutes ago about was it easy to accept because it was the return of the karma and was I changing so yeah they're both in there both of them because they've been a right it's a good corner phrase I've been a right shit to women but all my ex-girlfriends and I'm not like I had thousands I don't mean to beat myself up same brother to her but we're all good mates we're all mates so with Daniella I held a flaming on my heart for years and years for her and it was painful so you detected right there but the influx of my children coming back in my life and then I went back to the mother of my children and married her but I was upset about that Daniella because it makes you reflect that if you felt that pain imagine what older women have felt that you have done to them getting that information so what happens as your ego has been dented we don't like it how the fuck can he do that to me constantly look for revenge I'll get him back I'll destroy her life but then you go wait a minute look at this shit that I've done look at the destruction that I've done this is just to tell me that do you know what I don't like this feeling and I don't want to do it anymore people can hurt me they can do what they want but I'm not going to react because as soon as you give it energy then you're no different good things will happen but it doesn't mean that I'm not drinking I'm not taking drugs, you're clean 21 years doesn't mean your life's great bad shit happens more you just handle it better I'm unbreakable not untouchable here mentally I've created something that I believe I've still got so much to work on we spoke on the phone and we connected it made sense that we're both still vulnerable no matter how much we change no matter if you turn to God or Christianity or whatever religion you watch we're still set that means that we're searching for something we're searching for some sort of peace when really we'll ever find that well he's good isn't he he's very good I didn't expect you to be this good not that I think he was bad but he's fantastic yeah and I've tried to tell my story and I want to listen to that question because it's a great question and do we ever find true peace I think if we if I gauge from sexual addiction to abuse sexual addiction death wealth poverty I've lived in every one of those and I'm not the same person I was so I've obtained some sort of peace I've obtained some sort of mental health my mental health was bad it was really bad but the rest of me was alright so there was a constant battle so my mental health today is far greater than it's ever been more healed sorry it sounds like I'm saying I'm madder I've got better so I think better I know how to train my brain I'm not going to exactly write but I can train my brain to not think about the things that he wants to think about because all he wants to do is start a conversation in my shame, my guilt, my debts my this, my that but then there's a flood of love in my heart and I'm not being over spiritual or over silly human beings and we all have love in our heart whether we like that or not so my love in my heart I try to get out so do we ever get peace completely I don't know we can keep trying though yeah I think we'll keep pushing towards that I'm constantly searching for answers for tools for techniques to help improve me well maybe I do preach because I'm feeling good now I quit the drink the drugs the gambling fucking women but I was still feeling from the outside of my life creating a platform doing what I do making some money legit but then I felt I was becoming unhappy because I wasn't going within I wasn't going deep within myself now you says it there it's not that when you get peace what happens is when we're going to do something back in the day it's all ego you're a narcissist so what happens is you don't think about anybody else but when you start understanding other people's feelings and emotions then when something presents itself you think other people think I feel if I do this anyway so you become more conscious of the decisions that you're making and that's when you start not doing as many bad things or daff shit where other people are hurting from it so if I hurt anybody then it's just purely my actions that have done that and if I hurt myself it's purely my actions I know right from wrong you know right from wrong everybody knows right from wrong it's just to find that inner strength to go do you know what I'm not going to do this for the selfish reasons I'm going to do it for the right reasons some people can still be hurt by making the right choices in life but as long as you're doing it purely for your heart that is so difficult because we live in a fast paced world though it's so difficult because we're constantly competing same as social media same as I want to be the biggest podcast and I want to do this and do that when you break it all down that's still part of my ego but then I'm focusing it on to accomplishing something as well to then show that it can be done but in reality when I fucking break it all down if you take it all away the question is am I happy and that's the question that let me ask you a question yeah on you go I think there's a part of you that's very humble but you're very self critical of yourself and I identify but for a man of your years and where you are today whatever the purpose has been you can always change the motive so if you started this for the purpose of ego or pride I'm not saying you did yeah that's probably but now you've got into that stage where you've become aware and you want to change and you're changing and you're changing and you've got the co hornices to speak about it on air so there's a reality there's a marker in you somewhere that's gone I want to change now it don't come easy it don't come easy but I think what we need to change to hold on a minute if you do this you're going to hurt someone I've hurt a lot of people I've also helped a lot of people but I've hurt a lot of people not because I hated them because I wasn't well because you hurt yourself amen I hated myself but I think if we change the motive or start to agree with the motive because the brain wants to tell us everything else but if your motive is a good pure and you're out to have a load of money from this it's fine it's what you do with it it's an energy exchange absolutely and if we love money we're never going to get enough but if we accept money to be a purpose of good that we can have a nice life and help other people now we can say that and not mean it but you keep saying it enough it becomes a reality it's just when you create all this stuff as well so when I created all this part of me three years ago thought this would be the fulfilment this would be fulfil the loneliness the emptiness but then when I started getting it I realised very quickly that this is where I'm not going to get my happiness now I love what I do I believe I'm the best at what I do but it's I just don't think that this is not where I'm going to get my fulfilment and this is why I'm pushing my extremes now with health, fitness a bit of meditation to quite the mind there's just so many different things I'm only trying to test the waters to see what makes me feel happy in the morning now you don't wake up happy every morning it's an illusion you ain't happy in positive 24-7 and you can't buy into that bullshit but there's things that you do in your life that actually do make you happy drugs used to make me happy women made me happy but only for a very short fix it wasn't a longevity it wasn't for hours or weeks or months or years on end it was just short fix drugs, sex, gambling it just fulfilled the emptiness that I had for a minute seconds whatever the fuck it was but then you start realising okay I want to live a long happy healthy life so what do I do to do that okay I'll cut out the bad shit that I know the freaky elements was a drink of drugs in the gambling, I've done that but then I started creating a platform I started creating a podcast it started getting a lot of attention people were loving it and then the novelty started when I think fuck me man this ain't lasting long either I don't know how long that's all last so I'll ride the wave but as long as I'm creating other things around it absolutely I can also dip into other things it's trial and error with life we don't have all the answers you don't have all the answers but we're speaking from experience as well from dark places, from the brinks of fucking hell I've not been to hell once I've been there a good few times and I thought okay is this it you don't need to accept that life so for anybody watching as well you don't need to accept a life of misery, abusive relationships addictions whatever you've got you can make changes, you're loving proof that you can make changes a lot of people are coming at the end of my stuff as well and thinking yeah it's just an interview or this and that but they don't realise the depths that I've actually went through in life to then pull myself out to then shooting into the sky and flying high but it's still difficult, it's not just okay he's doing well and that's it I spoke on my phone somebody says everybody says you're doing well but I always think I failed you, I still feel like a fraud sometimes and that's hard do you know what though James look if we was to be able to take trauma out of our system and put it there and so it becomes it becomes like a seediness that we feed so we feel trauma with traumatic things and I think as we grow the inner child gets lost so the inner child was screaming at 6 when it's 60 and it's still screaming a 6 year old can fry a toy but a 60 year old could fry an amour but it's the same emotion so I think for me to go back to the basics of all my ups and downs in life then if I go back to that inner child it's really been hurt and it ain't an excuse because that inner child hurt a lot of people and every time it hurt someone it increased the trauma so the most he don't never came he just got worse worse and the vacuum in me that grew and grew and grew this hole became so hard to fill there wasn't enough money there wasn't enough sex, there wasn't enough drugs there wasn't enough anger self-hatred I loved myself and I used to think people thought could he such a nice fellow why is he doing this to himself it was out of control so when I listen to you ask me I'm not doing that for a young man of your age to be able to equate what you've just said on this I hope you put that on this one nothing gets ahead of you though I love it because it's incredible that you have an acceptance that you've done wrong and you're trying to do right and what the ego or the enemy let's call it the enemy it wants to kill us it's cunning and it's baffling so self-seeking is the worst thing to have and I don't see you self-seeking at all and if you have been who cares you've got somewhere but I think the platform you've got here right here and the popularity you've got use it for the purpose of good see that's what I'm trying to do I don't want to pull the wool over people's eyes I don't want to portray the great life when it's still a battle I'd thought that creating this platform then people would think I was a good guy look what he's done then it strokes my ego he's been seeking kicks in so I had to identify and go wait a minute stop bullshitting yourself James you're still battling you're still struggling but you still get out of the day to keep pushing forward so if I can keep putting all those things into practice what I do it might not be for everybody the cold water fairy, the yoga, the meditation the eating cleaner and the exercise if I can do all that there's no social media as well but I need the social media for my work but partly that's thinking it's still an illusion and I always say it's making everybody compete with their own lives it's making everybody hate themselves because they think other people are living a great life like if people just stop bullshitting and talk about the real stuff like it's okay to struggle man like no matter how big this gets no matter the guests that I get every guest that I interview is the same I'm neither up or down everything's the same it's weird that I see when I've got a guest on as soon as I say boom we're on I'm plugged in let's go it's eye contact let's take it through a journey let's connect there's no questions sitting here there's no loads of notes we're just shooting the shit people can understand that no matter if you're a drug smuggler no matter if you're a porn star, a politician, a sports star everybody's got one thing in common they're all fucking battling absolutely and I think terrific I mean I'm not going to say this to pump your ego but I'm impressed with the goods you've got not impressed with who you are because we're all human but I'm impressed with the goods that you've got because I identify now I've got a story of recovery in my life that I aim to put something out there so I'm new to this journey I'm not new to recovery and new to but over the last few years maybe I've really come to terms with I've act to accept my past and release it all the good that come through the trial and the tribulation is in me it's up to me what I do with it and if I can help one person then I'm doing good but with what you're talking about no one's got it right the amount of people that suffer because no one we're all living in a subconscious mind what we can get what do we look like how much money we got what car do we drive we'll go for it I'm stalking throughout so am I but it's diluted in me because the awareness and the acceptance that I got of how bad it was say it was 10 out of 10 I've got it down to about 3 so now in that space the vacuum of anxiety fear I can get it and go no hold on but for a minute what's the truth for the matter what are you really thinking is it real what you're thinking or even when I go to talk I didn't have this give I used to just scream and shout and want to be the centre of the part you know because I was broken I was frightened I was traumatised and I was full of masks any mask you wanted so how's it been out of prison how's your life like you've done your 12 and battling and coming cleaning how was it and how's it been 21 years you're clean when did you go out of prison I was very fortunate there was an appeal when I got out so when I got out of prison all my mates he's a Christian but a lot of my friends had got into recovery so it's sort of war the same act life was changing it was the turn of the 2000s it was the millennium things were different fashions had changed music had changed it was part of the e-scene the music and all that and the drugs and the crime and the notorious gangsters none of it was real it was just a video in my head and I would turn up for it well I've got a pretty girl he's my car right he needs tons of smuggle all complete to shit what a waste of time they call it stinking thinking but when I came home disaster struck again because I wasn't right and you've got to read my book and you'll get it or I'll give you the audio you can listen to it because I think you're identified with the insanity of it all so when I came out I wasn't skin, I had money everyone was excited I got on quite quickly I got on before my father and when I came on I was clean I went back home to Tracy and the kids my friends were around how did Tracy accept you after everything you'd done was she still open to you being a changed man the ones who have been really close to back they don't see me as a changed man they still think I'm pretending it takes time James that's just fucking 10-15 years I've been on my journey for six years seven years I've had many obstacles but they still hold that resentment and fear and anger and hatred and I feel it quite rightly so but part of me that they will tell me you're fucking fake and part of you still believe that but then I have to remind myself how far I've come and what I'm doing because I do a lot of help others as well I don't promote it, I don't shout it from the rooftops I don't want the gratification for it because it feels right for my soul and sometimes I think when you don't try and portray yourself as that character you know you're doing it then that's when you're doing it for the right reasons but it can be difficult so if your message is accepting you again it must have been hard for her as well in the book, I don't know if you know Jonathan Akin he was the fallen MP who was going to be the prime minister and he got a bit of bird Jonathan Akin googling, smashing guy he got Nick for perjury and he got they say he was going to be the prime minister he's a mate of mine, he's a very special man and he wrote the forward in the book and he wrote about Tracy and he called Tracy the Rock of Ages so Tracy and I have always been at a kindred spirit as much as I've hurt her emotionally she played her part but not to the degrees it's not a blame game I take full responsibility she's my best friend today so when I came out of prison there could have been sorry because I've got this nose and it affects my throat there could have been I could have done it about three months ago but it's still affecting how I breathe that was the drugs and some fighting and I just couldn't breathe and they went in there the other day and took it all apart but it's still not right I think I've got to go back again but that's okay so it affects my breathing so when I came out of prison with Tracy there was maybe that financial stability again and I've always looked after because she's always looked after me we always had this sort of sexual crush on each other that was always there the sex sorry Tracy and we had three children together so I went home but I relapsed I relapsed on cocaine and I don't know I wasn't far enough away from it and I was on the beach with a mate of mine and he said Tracy went don't give it to him and I took it and before you know it I had another affair but this time with my with my best friend's wife they was it was terrible what I'd done I mean I wouldn't say their marriage was really rock solid it doesn't matter if it was no that's not an excuse but I repeated the behaviour again and I love that boy I loved him I did and we had a very successful well he's got a very successful business that I had with him that's not important it broke his heart it broke my heart the girl suffered over it badly she was a lovely lady but we had an affair and we shouldn't have done you know it was wrong and this was 20 years ago I just came out of prison I was a Christian I'd relapsed and I had an affair with my business partner my best friend someone I love who I still love and I believe he still loves me today he's gone on and done very well for himself but so I had an affair crazy what I'd done I had all these businesses that I'd built up but I was insane in it and that was the icing on the cake but it still didn't stop my sex addiction I still was it was the wanting in the getting not the doing for me that excitement where that old was still I didn't take everything seriously I wouldn't accept the mentor I had money I had houses I had cars all that crap that you eyed behind and I wasn't coming out you wasn't getting me I poked me head up but the function of the addict thrived on it thrived on the car thrived on the money the beautiful house in Chelsea and behind the scenes this little gremlin was going still hurting people it don't exist today so I'm proof sadly there's been a lot of people hurt but I think everyone I've hurt has been blessed as well and that's not a chuck away remark so I had another affair and um well it was difficult then I had a child out of wedlock and then after a number of years the insanity was still there I just couldn't get it I knew what peace was like I knew what truth was like I was financially secure but I wasn't right and I thought I was mad I thought how do I do this what do I do but God's got a great way in the Bible it says iron sharpens iron so whatever I act to learn be it at 62 years of age or 45 years of age my lesson came when I lost everything I lost absolutely I couldn't have fallen oyster card I believe that the foundations of what I've built my life on you know we had a we had Casabian the music group it was called Sara Cruz we owned a radio station we had supermarkets we had a flower business and I'm not shying off and we had property portfolio but I think my behaviour it weren't getting me well in fact it was getting me unwell and it collapsed I had a business in America in New York and it just all and when the crash came it weren't the crash that done it I believe it was my faith that took it all the way because underneath it was the illness and I act to get to the illness and it blocked everything I'm alright I can travel first class and then I lost a lot of people's money a lot of people who are trusting me and love me for years but in that I know if they're listening they probably upset a lot of them I'm paying it back but I think what also upset them that my truth as a friend with them my loyalty towards them I was a good friend we used to have fun it's not only friends it was family as well and when my legs got cut that is when I really got into my recovery Was that your rock bottom? Yeah, I had nothing and how long ago was that? That started 13 years ago and how are you feeling now? How's life like now, Michael? Well, my life is so much nicer James I've got seven grandchildren four daughters Foxy, you better get back in the graph to me We're doing alright Forgive him, Lord No, I've enjoyed me How do they take you? Do they know your stories yet or they're still young? Well, I got asked to write this book and there's a potential doing a series on that Netflix it's early days it's stuff that I want to do and it's not about my ego it was, it ain't no more so I wrote this book and it was on a mens as well and a lot of things were being said that weren't true and I took that on the chin but I think God separated me so the mask had come away so they might not understand that they go, well, what's he worrying about? God for all, we want our money back they're right and a lot of people have had their money back or some of it so I pray I clear the debt but what's life like today is I didn't know how to love my four children I did, I thought I did but because of my shame and my behaviour there was always a glass wall between us me and my children and then the disaster happened and when I found Mike my rock bottom my first grandson was born the day I lost the money on November 22 14 years ago so it was it was mad, it was the day he was born and this little boy was giving to me his name Paddy he lives out in Spain and I'm not just saying it because he's my grandson but he's the most incredible kid I've ever met in my life so when he was given to me it was the first gift that I'd been given that I could give back but it was a love transaction it was love, love there was no money involved there was no right there was nothing wrong or right about it it was just pure love and it touched my heart now all my children had sport rotten with holidays whatever I'd done lovely holidays in the south of France New York wherever they used to go they had great times, my bae and I'm not blind me I'm trumpet it's what I used to buy that was my security and I'd have lonely nights of the soul dark nights of the soul thinking what is going on please let my heart connect with my head please help me stop this and I have stopped it and then he gave me Paddy a God I believe is a blessing from God all children are blessings from God and now I've got seven of them and every single one of them I'm pleased I never had sons I'm pleased I had daughters although they've been hard work but I love my children but I would hate it broke the curse it broke the sin of the fathers no girls and I've now got five grandsons and two grandaurs and I'm not just saying it what I am saying it from Paddy he's a bright lovely kid he's very well mannered he's sister goo and I've got two other grandchildren Livy and Erin they're from a different part of my family and they're also beautiful children they're my son-in-laws first marriage but they're part of the family but my own grandchildren which are Paddy and then Grace she's electrifying little Grace she lives out in Spain she speaks posh lovely little kid she's feisty she's got the buzz and they call me Pappy hello Pappy she says and then I've got Nolan I've got this character they're all sporks my kids spoil them but they sort of have a resilience about them they have a knowledge about them that they picked up in the atmosphere for somewhere or the sin's been broken and in the UK I've got my Nancy who's adorable and then there's Teddy and Alfie Teddy's a rascal Alfie's lovely and then I've got Freddie and I've named them so I can feel that emotion in me I am so blessed that every single one of those children live in my heart so when I speak from love today as soon as I see them I embrace them in love there's nothing I didn't have the money to spoil them so I had to learn what normal people do go to the park and kick a ball about get on a bus get on a train get on a park because my children's life was very sort of completely different so it was a humility there was a humblness about it and I think that love is god love is godly love it was humble it wasn't self-seeking it didn't cost anything it was really natural and I enjoyed that so I believe those seven children was the turning point of my life was you scared that your son could have turned out like yourself in your wild years at the time I didn't realise but in hindsight as they say over the last few years I'm sort of grateful that I haven't got sons because if they did do what I'd done I see it in my daughters my daughters are pretty they're firecrackers they're not sort of like do gooders but they know about the faith and they're lovely and they're nice kids I've got my three children from Tracy Amy, Lily and Beth they're sensational they're beautiful and I've got another daughter who lives over in Lownton called Ruby I don't see a lot of Ruby but bless her she's a lovely kid but my three children here they're very very good children and I'm proud of them and they've given me seven grandchildren and that's plenty What do you think looking back at your life, Michael? What do I think looking back? I've had a fun life I've had a fun life I've had the best restaurants in the world and I've also had the worst I've lived in multi-million pound houses and I've been homeless I've drove a brand new Range Rover for 10 years the last seven years well not so much now I couldn't have fooled the oyster I'll tell you a little story about that take me two seconds one day I was outside my I was outside South Kensington Tube station I had no money and I could see my flat where I used to live and where I used to park my car and I cried out to God I had no money to get home I needed £4.80 for the ticket I gave all my expensive clothes away I thought I was cursed I thought I was cursed crazy, it was crazy so I prayed, help me help me get home Now South Kensington Tube station is really busy when I walked down the apples when I walked down the stairs there was no one there, it's very very unusual and there was a noise on the machine I needed £5 to get home I could see my flat, where I used to park my car I prayed for help I heard a noise on the oyster machine I went over there, £5 fell out of it there was no one there £5 now that's answer to prayer that is answer to prayer and that's the truth I've seen miracle after miracle these eyes I've seen I've witnessed murder years ago in a club I've slept with my best friend's wife I'm ashamed of myself I've done loads of lovely things I've gone around the world speaking in prisons I've helped lots of... whatever I've done it don't matter I work in the homeless shelter I love it, absolutely love giving something back because we only keep what we've got by giving it away well I pray the stinking thinking don't exist and if it does I'll keep away from it and I want to give good away but I've had an unbelievable life I've lived 9 or 10 different lives but today the security of my mindset and the heartbeat of my heart and the spirit that up rises in me when I see my grandchildren it's all been worth it I'm really sorry for the people of it they've all been blessed and I would honestly say if they were lined up here now they'd always say at one time in their life I brought joy to them fun, financial blessings loads of things but it don't justify it because it cut deep but I've had a fantastic life things I've been in New York I've been in the South of France I've been in prisons all sorts of things I work in the prisons with the young offenders but the most satisfying thing that I can honestly say today is that my recovery is becoming apparent my well-being is coming apparent things you can't buy my love for my children is coming apparent my business is starting to get better again and the Bible says he restores to you the years the loakers have eaten so as long as I don't love it as long as I don't take advantage of it ever again I feel that I'm coming into the autumn of my life and I want to give away what I've been given in a way that I'm not looking for a pat on the back I feel that I'm coming into the autumn of my life and I'm not looking for a pat on the back I like to receive from what I give peace contentment, joy love and enjoy my family For anybody watching, Michael this may be a life of crime this may be a battle with addictions this may be a prison and let's try to change our life what advice would you give for them? Get honest there's a lot of help out there recovery churches but I think the thing that we've got to look at is not how many times we've been in prison not how much money we've had not how many drugs we've had I think we've really got to deal with our inner being so pride is a cunning enemy greed, lust and if we've got the balls to admit we've got them and they say shame the devil and if we've got the balls to say we've got them and we share it or we put it out there with someone I think there's a number of people especially we didn't have it when I was a kid no one knew about this stuff I mean you're very fortunate to be growing in an environment where spirituality and change is apparent absolutely, amen, good word so we never had that you was weak, vulnerable I love being vulnerable you can't do that you've got to be a man and we hear all those things but I think in the environment of day especially in prisons, especially with addiction there's a chance for us and I think we've just got to be abstinent from what's bad for us and find out what's good for us you said it earlier James women, drugs, bless women I love women, women, drugs, money, greed all of that, there's short fixes and we have to work hard to change it's like the plough the ploughman on the field you know we have to churn the weeds we have to get rid of the churn the weeds, get rid of the dros and it's uncomfortable but that's when we become a man when we accept that we need to change and we embrace the change and it takes a little while but I think honest is the best policy what things would you like to finish up on Miko your alpha, what's that as anything you'd like to promote and plug we've got your book where can people buy your book first of all, Amazon Amazon's the best place it's all at book stores but it's called Sins of Fathers it was published by Harper and Collins and Amazon it's easy to buy, it's audio, it's written there's a lot of things going on with that book there's a lot of talk going on with it people have come to us and asked us maybe we want to do a documentary maybe and so what would I like to plug I work with alpha in prisons what is alpha alpha is a christian course in prisons where it's non-threatening it's easy to do it's in most prisons in the UK Scotland island or around the place and I just think it's a place you can feel loved and coffee is good in the biscuits but I think it's that thing is called, because it's christianity or in prisons there's an AA there's self help groups but I get involved with AA and CA and AA and alpha is a great thing alpha is definitely a great thing it's a 12 week course and yeah that sort of thing I mean I'm like you on for the homeless but what would I like to plug nothing really that there's hope for us read my book I'd like to read my book not because I want to sell loads because I think they might get a bead on no matter how far you fall no matter how much you've got or what you haven't got there's a chance for us all it's called hope so I work my program daily I do the homeless thing I work in the prisons lockdowns made it a bit different but I would like to end on the word love because I think love about loving oneself so the word love is a verb it's a doing word so if we love ourselves without the materialistic side of love because I don't think that is love but to embrace ourselves to speak nice things over ourselves and I think if we can establish a good well being however you want to look for it guys and girls and then when we start to love ourselves then we can love other people in a way that's respectable, kind and decent Michael, bless you for coming on to Dabra'ran town your story I thoroughly enjoyed that thank you check out more of my podcasts on the right and be sure to like share and comment your thoughts on this weeks podcast thank you