Hi everyone. I'm Stacey Klein. I'm the founder and artistic director of Double Edge Theatre. Welcome you today. Thank you for your patience. The COVID safe distancing seating. We appreciate the back part of the room uses that door and the front part of the room uses the storm in case you need to go out for an event. I have the honor to introduce the second in the Living Presence of Our History series presented by Double Edge with our partners, Okitao, an indigenous cultural center located autonomously at Double Edge. The Okitao Council's co-directors Rhonda Anderson and Larry Spotting for Oman's mission is to develop and create their own much needed multicultural and multi-tribal cultural space. However, they have also generously decided to share beyond their own people this educational series so that our communities can learn about the long unacknowledged history of the Nipah Nation and other tribal presence among us. The first in the Living Presence series dealt into the reality of these tribes today, their presence and the relationship to their millennial long history of presence in this region. What became clear as Larry and Rhonda shared stories of their upbringing and also their children's upbringing was how essential it is for allies of the indigenous community to give voice and space to the extreme challenges facing their community toward living a just and fully acknowledged, fully realized cultural life. The second in the series is subtitled mascot's logos imagery and cultural appropriation.  The genocide and resettlement may appear to many as things of the past. But it must become known to us all that in history of colonial and forced disappearance of an entire people as a clear and horrifying imprint in today's world, including racist stereotyping in state seals, flags, school mascots and other misleading imagery that only hold a false supremacist mirror to native youth and to all those who are subjected to it. Into an image not of their own making an image that is thrust upon them. This extends to the erasure in history and presence of a people whose way of life allowed our planet to thrive for millennia. And I don't think it's doing that well today so I think we could all learn from that history. Even double edge is devoting space and time to an autonomous place in which native voices and life are determinant and the final word on their own identity. So I want to as as my last words today. I would like to introduce the co directors of okay Teo. Ronda Anderson, who will be the moderator of the event today is a new Piaq out of Baskin from Alaska, her native enrollment village is talk topic. Most importantly is as a mother, a classically trained herbalist Silver Smith and activist. She works as an educator activist on the removal of mascots water protector, indigenous identity and protecting her traditional homelands in the Arctic National Wildlife refuge from extracted industry. She created vital vibrant visible indigenous identity through portraiture and ongoing collection and exhibit of portraits of native peoples of New England to bring awareness to contemporary indigenous identity. She is commissioner to Indian affairs in Western Mass, a founding member and co director of the Obe Teo cultural council and the native youth empowerment foundation, as well as a representative of the native movement. Knowledge mint is always good. Larry spotted pro man is a citizen of the Nipmuc tribe of Massachusetts. He has been playing award winning writer poet and cultural educator traditional storyteller tribal drummer dancer and motivational speaker involving youths to Friday cultural and environmental awareness. Larry's books, including morning becomes Thanksgiving and whispering whispering basket are available online at both double edge and Obe Teo websites. He's been a board member of the Nipmuc cultural preservation is on the review committee at the Native American poets project and travels throughout the United States, Canada and parts of Europe to schools, colleges, powwows and other organizations sharing the music, cultural and historic life of Nipmuc people and that's a Native American sovereignty and identity. He is co director of the Obe Teo cultural council and the native youth empowerment foundation. And Larry will introduce the event today. As we speak and I'm only introducing Obe tears co directors because Rhonda will take over from there with everybody on the panel. Thank you all for being here. First and foremost, it's important to speak in my own language. So we say in our language and I would ask you to please join me in this prayer as we call it. Please stand if you could. Thank you. Yeah, I greet you in the words of my ancestors. I greet you in the words of asking our relatives to come and share this moment with us. That all life would understand that reciprocity and that we would exchange today in a good way. The blessings of our ancestors and all the living beings around us above below and all around that would share in this moment this now with us that we would enter into this space in a good way and share with one another. But I'm going to share a different healing song and the way it was taught to me by my grandfather is that everything that we're doing it starts right here with the heartbeat. So what I was talking about today and all this different turmoil, we forget that every living thing has this heartbeat right here. And instead of looking at the exterior we need to start looking inside of that heartbeat realize that we all start with this. And I just want to make sure I acknowledge that this is the land of my ancestors come to live on people. And it's an honor to be here like speaking as Stacy mentioned I spoke to many parts of the world and it's always nothing like being able to share on the land of my ancestors. So it's really good to be here with you all today and we have some very important things to discuss so I look forward to the conversation. And this time I want to turn it over to my whole director, Ron Anderson. Thank you. Thank you. Hello. Thank you very much and welcome. I am at the basket from Alaska was born in Fairbanks. I grew up in Plainfield, which is right next door, and I went to school at the beloved old Sanderson Academy here in Ashefield. And I choose to live here and call Western Massachusetts my home. Plain is my home and the land that I'm privileged to steward and live on is on the become a gun river watershed, which is also known as the Green River, and it's traditional so cookie avanaki and become traditional homelands. So, I am very honored to be here today. I'm going to go through a very long, but traditional acknowledgement of this land that we're standing on this land that we're all benefiting from at this moment in time. Was and still is Wabanaki territory, land that was lovingly inhabited by so cookie avanaki become tuck non attack nor water mohican and network people. Wabanaki means the place where the sun is born every day, making the people of this place people of the dawn land. So cookie means people who go their own way and they are still here in southern Vermont. Now he can translate to people of the waters that are never still in the mohican while they were pushed west with the Stockbridge and Muncie bands in the late 1700s to early 1800s. They were pushed onto Wisconsin monomony tribal lands where they have a reservation today. They also maintain tribal land on the Hudson River near Troy New York, where they come regularly to Massachusetts to maintain cultural ties to the historic homelands. Non attack means the middle of the river in reference to the oxbow area of the Quinn attack river. Nick muck means people of the freshwater as we just heard. And as well they are still here in Massachusetts with the small reservation of land that has never been seated. Become tuck is a word that would translate roughly to people of a swift clear fishing stream. They were absorbed into the neighboring communities, and we are actually in the watershed of the become tuck river, where the dearfield river. We are also in the larger watershed of the Quinn attack river or Connecticut river. Quinn attack what translates to the long river, roughly an abanaki. And while this river has known many names by many different groups of people living along its flowing path, when it took what has stuck. It's important to remember that this area has been an integral place for indigenous people to reside gather hunt fish and farm for millennia. Please get to know the indigenous people of your area and ask what you can do to lift their voices on honor and respect their sovereignty. So in that spirit I have three action items. First recognize and make changes to the dominant narrative that glorifies colonization and genocide of indigenous peoples of this area. Problematic terms like Pioneer Valley are a reminder of that legacy of dispossession removal and subsequent erasure Connecticut River Valley works just fine. Second, there are three bills that the tribes of Massachusetts support in the state house right now that address banning mascots from high schools, the state flag and seal and to protect Native American heritage. The tribes that support this legislation or the chap aquatic tribe of Wampanoag Nation, the herring pond Wampanoag tribe, Mashby Wampanoag tribe, and the Massachusetts tribe at punk a punk and the network nations. Your voice support and solidarity for them to pass. Please contact your local legislator through MA indigenous agenda dot org and encourage them to support these bills. Third, this coming Wednesday, September 16 is virtual lobby day. Here's the flag and seal and ban native mascots from 10 to 1230am. Well, 10am to 1230pm in conjunction with the United American Indians of New England. North American Indian Center of Boston mascot steering committee and Massachusetts peace action. Please check out mass peace action dot org or email info at mass peace action dot org. I'm not a lot in the given. Thank you for listening. So officially paga legacy. Welcome to part two of the living presence series, a community conversation about mascots imagery and cultural appropriation. I want to thank you. Thank you very much for coming here and listening today to this incredible panel of nine. This panel is consisting of indigenous community members, leaders and scholars who will discuss issues associated with native mascots cultural appropriation and hear their experiences. So, please let me introduce the panelists in today's conversation. We are truly honored and grateful for each and every amazing individual for taking the time out of their day to share with us. So, of course, Larry spotted chromand who you already been introduced to. Can you please tell me in two minutes, I'm going to ask these like short questions as I'm introducing tell me in two minutes or less. How do you feel when you see a native mascot. The first terms I would just like to say, thank you Rhonda visual terrorism. It's the first thing I think about when I see a mascot. You know, and I shared the story many times and articles as well as growing up here in Massachusetts, Springfield, Western mass area, not having any sense of who I was because the school books and everything I was learning was outside of an indigenous narrative. Everything I learned was essentially saying that people of native ancestry had no contribution, and that we were somehow like just these hapless bystanders benefiting from white proximity, because nothing was taught about how great we were or anything that we had accomplished. So, so as a kid and you know I don't want to go too long with people think about well nobody complained about mascots before, but you need to understand that was. And this was in the 80s I'm talking about and if we go back a little further which we're going to get into you're going to see how it was more devastating, but just growing up in the 80s this was like, you don't matter that was the message that people of indigenous identity was receiving. So to think about a mascot then it was like this is just the way it is this is that's me on that football helmet that's me the clown over there, that's me the menstrual show. And so, later on as I grew up and as it became more self aware of my identity, you know I realized that this was this mascot is part and parcel of that problem. And as I said we'll get into it later. And my kids experience the same, the same phenomenon of early on when they were young and we had to deal with that. Just going back if I could sum it up in two words is visual terrorism. Anthony melting tallow botanists fine chief is an amazing visual artist public speaker, and an indigenous social advocate. Anthony is an enrolled member of the Blackfoot nation of six SICA Alberta Canada, and has been a resident of chickpea Massachusetts since 2005. He was to envision a sensitive interpretation of indigenous social discourse aspirations for indigenous healing and our movement towards truth, cultural pride, rebirth and resurgence. So, two minutes or less is the removal of mascots a part of native social justice and healing. It is, it is for me thank you for coming here and being part of this conversation. My personal experience growing up in Western Canada. It is part of our resurgence it is part of reclaiming our identity. It is part of us telling our own stories which are powerful, because a lot of our stories are tied up in the representation that we see growing up on a wider cultural social background. We grew up having no positive representations of ourselves as children. What we learned in school was the bare minimum. So there was no chance for us growing up as children, indigenous children. We grew up as so called urban Indians. We grew up from Mokinsis which is a treaty seven block for territory in Western Canada, and the city of Calgary resides on our traditional territory of Mokinsis. And in that context, we grew up in a very Western themed environment, the biggest cultural attraction in Calgary that exists today is Calgary Stampede. And they had an Indian village there and we were, it was like we were left in the past, and we, if you went to the Indian village you were, it was quite a distance from the main stampede. There was no representation of ourselves in culture, on news, on TV, in storybooks. And what we did see, and which was far more damaging were these representations of ourselves that were quite unlike the realities that we lived in and grew up experienced. So seeing a mascot, it, it's, it is, it is harmful to young people when that's the only representation that you see of yourself. You see this reflection back and it's, it doesn't frame you in the most positive light you grew up trying to find your place in the wider society and reconnect with your cultural roots. It's hard to do when representations of positive, of positivity are lacking. Anna Juan Whedon is an enrolled member of his mother's Mashpee Wampanoa tribal community located on Cape Cod. He currently works at the MPTN Cultural Resource Department as a Eastern Woodland song and dance instructor for his father's Mashpee Wampanoa tribal community, located on their reservation in South Eastern Connecticut. Growing up on the Narragansett Reservation in South Coastal Rhode Island, Anna Juan was instructed on traditional dances and customs of New England natives throughout his entire life. As an adult traveling abroad and visiting many other tribes across the US, Anna Juan has developed a comprehensive understanding of the vast diversity among many native cultures and customs. Anna Juan looks forward to any opportunity to share with public audiences while engaging others in cultural preservation for future generations to better understanding. Anna Juan, two minutes or less. Can you tell us how you became involved in removing mascots? Thank you. How did I get involved? I became a parent, I guess. I care. I became a victim at a very young age in schools. I grew up in a predominantly Caucasian area of Charleston Rhode Island. I grew up on a reservation in Rhode Island. However, second you stepped off that land, people forgot that they were ever natives there. There's pre-dates, casinos, and that awareness that, again, people visit Fox Woods but still don't know that they're visiting a reservation. You know, like I said, I was just personally attacked for my own identity.  It was something that my parents, you know, reiterated how important that kind of stuff is to our identity. And to have to defend your identity every day to be attacked for defending your identity in front of your peers to be chastised and sent to the principal's office to get detention. Or to be written up and given suspension. And fortunately, my parents did come into assist me during those times. But whenever you ask the teachers for help, they were worse. They were worse than your peers sometimes. What are you doing in the boys' room? The girls' room is across the hall. I mean, simple things like that that I witnessed in growing up in public schools. To see mascots used by a culture that, for our tribe in Mashby, we welcome these people. So it's biting the hand that feeds you. It's literally arrogance that as a Native American traveling into other tribal territories, I personally could never do that on somebody else's land. So again, I think it's important that we educate people. We have a president in the White House who forgot that he was an immigrant and still is. So it's very important that we start with education. And as a parent, you know, I just wanted to basically prevent my kids from going through a lot of the stuff that I know I had to go through. Basically any of our children. Thank you. Brittany Wally is the Nipmuc tribal anti-mascot representative. She currently finds herself joining local Native voices during panel sessions with schools in Massachusetts that are looking to remove dehumanizing Native mascots. Her father served as a Nipmuc powwow with her late uncle, creating a connection that has created a path for Miss Wally to examine what it means to be Nipmuc in a modern society and find meaningful ways to help serve her community. Miss Wally runs B7, a traditional and contemporary indigenous art store with a focus on woven goods of Native Eastern woodland cultures. Her work has been featured at the Concord Museum, as well as Plymouth, and Pawtuxet, where she is a living history educator and Native public programs assistant. Marshal Arts Instructor Miss Wally holds a bachelor's degree in sociology with minors in philosophy and business management from Rhode Island College. She aspires to pursue a graduate degree in order to become a stronger advocate for indigenous voices in the future. So Brittany, can you tell us how mascots have affected your life and family through the cultural appropriation of the Nipmuc mascot? So that's actually a very interesting question when it comes to the Nipmuc mascot. If you're speaking specifically on Nipmuc regional high school, the story wouldn't pertain to me, but speaking quickly, my father was actually out.  And so when he was out, a young, maybe a teenage young teenage boy actually came up to my father and asked him if he was a administrator or a teacher, I suppose, at Nipmuc high school, which was pretty, you know, telling when you hear arguments about how these mascots are supposed to help preserve Native culture and how they're supposed to represent Native people. And here my dad was an active Nipmuc power medicine person, just in the store. And this student, you know, in the town, assumed he was a teacher at the high school and did not think of the Nipmuc people he immediately just thought of the high school. So, you know, there's a lot of lack of education right there. And when my father first told me that story, you know, it hits it really hits deep and it doesn't feel good. And when it comes to myself personally, you know, I'd have to go way back to when I was first bullied for being an indigenous person. I'm a little boy I was an elementary school came up to me and demanded to know where my feather was if I was Indian, and this is grade school so I can't imagine where, you know, this child got that kind of language but it stopped with me my entire life. I live in a town that has at least one neighboring school with a native mascot so I'm not sure where that child learned that from but those are two personal anecdotes on me and my immediate family. In a greater sense, you know, native mascots really are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to all of the issues and all of these racially charged issues. It's really just the tip of the iceberg for me. Jamie Morrison is a descendant of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians. He's a graduate of Winchester High School, and was involved in helping start the discussion on mascot issue in the late 90s in Winchester. That initiative did not succeed. But this summer, Winchester finally voted to remove the Sockham, or as they say, seachem name and logo. Jamie worked at the North American Indian Center of Boston as Youth Director and the President of the Board of Directors. He has been the head man, head men's basketball coach at Haskell Indian Nations University in Lawrence, Kansas, MCLA in Western Massachusetts and UMass Boston. Jamie is currently the Director of Urban Scholars and Assistant Basketball Coach at UMass Boston, as well as the University of Laison for Native students. Jamie, in two minutes or less, can you tell us how you became involved in anti-mascot work? Sure. So I think it probably all started when I was a student at Winchester High School.    Seeing the things that played out at the pep rallies, at the high school football games, at the soccer games and being an athlete, it really sort of affected me and sort of planted the seed. For kind of the later work. And I think at that point, to be really honest, I was pretty young and wasn't really ready to tackle that issue for probably a number of reasons. But as I got older and continued to work, you know, at Winchester and got involved with the Indian Center, I felt like it was time for me to sort of step up and have that conversation at Winchester. And as you mentioned, Rhonda, that did not go very well. But just kind of seeing the things that were going on. And in that area, to be honest, you know, it wasn't just Winchester, there were four or five different communities, sort of in Middlesex County that all had, whether it was red raiders, or some warriors or some other sort of nickname and, and so, you know, it was a real kind of systemic problem, especially specific to that area and it was just something that I sort of got involved in felt passionate about. And the deeper I got into it, and really to be honest, the more resistance I got from the communities, sort of the more entrenched that I that I really got involved and then as I got older kind of kind of kind of snowballed from there. And then seeing my experiences at Haskell. It was actually a little bit different, but when you go on the road to South Dakota, or to North Dakota, and, and go into some hostile environments, you, it's really pretty eye opening as to what people are like and how you're treated. So I've kind of been doing this work sort of ever since that and, and, you know, it's been going on probably close to 20 years now. Thank you. Laurel Davis Delano is a professor of sociology at Springfield College.  Davis Delano was recently a member of a team which engaged in research for the reclaiming native truth project. Davis Delano's current research is focused on the degree to which non native people are exposed to representations of Native Americans and the context of these representations, as well as white perceptions of native identity. So Laurel two minutes or less this is a, this is a good question. Can you tell us one surprising fact that you discovered in your work as a researcher on these topics. Wow. I don't even remember what the surprises have been. Most recently, I can tell you that a team of us studied what non native people are exposed to. We studied over 5,500 people and we asked them to name various things to type out. And I can tell you that it's pretty amazing that only 15% could name a famous contemporary native person. And only 25% could name a television show with a reoccurring native character. And those are actually pretty high figures, because some people didn't answer the question at all and they probably didn't know answers. And then we analyze so that's one fact. I'll stop there. Malian Dana grew up on an Indian group on Indian Island in the Penobscot Nations reservation, and is the daughter of former Penobscot Nation Chief Barry Dana, who served from 2000 to 2004. As ambassador Malian is a representative of the Penobscot Nation and serves as a liaison for the nation at the local, state and federal level levels of government in order to protect the Penobscot Nation sovereignty culture and natural resources and their general welfare welfare. After serving as ambassador, Miss Dana served as an elected member of the Penobscot Nation Tribal Council, the Human Resources Director for the Penobscot Indian Nation Enterprises, the Penobscot Nation Cultural and Historic Preservation Department and a substitute teacher for the nation school.  Miss Dana's advocacy resulted in the state of Maine recently enacting a law to change the annual Columbus Day in October to indigenous people's day and prohibit and prohibit public schools from using derogatory mascots. Her other passions are finding ways to strengthen and expand programs that help to preserve and teach the customs and traditions of Penobscot people. So Malian, when did you first notice mascots or instances of cultural appropriation and how did that make you feel two minutes or less. Hi Rhonda, great to see you, great to be with everyone. So for me, it probably goes back to when I was around six years old, and I saw the movie Walt Disney's Peter Pan. And they sing a song called What Makes the Red Man Red when Peter Pan and all the Lost Boys, you know, for some reason have an adventure at an Indian camp in Never Never Land. And I remember I had grown up with my, my culture, my language, my father taught me so much both of my parents, my mother's Penobscot too. So seeing this representation of what was supposed to be my people done in such a mocking and stereotypical and really demeaning way on the big screen, you know, they're throwing around the R word, the S word. It's pretty jarring for a very young child. So I remember having an anxious response to that but as a child that young you don't know how to compartmentalize that really in your, in your brain and then in high school when I started seeing my peers at other schools using Indian mascots, I think a lot of those same anxieties and feelings and anger came flooding back that I had kind of shoved away as a child. So when I first started seeing the Indian mascots and use it really sparked something in me that I think I've been planted a long time before seeing Walt Disney's Peter Pan and that song and if anyone hasn't seen that I don't recommend you go watch it but it is probably one of the most blatantly racist pieces of cartoon pop culture really aimed at children having to do with indigenous people. So, definitely as a child and into my teen years and even as an adult, it's still jarring to look at even after all this time doing this work so thank you. Thank you for sharing. Jennifer Reddy was born in Plymouth County. The daughter of Bernard Martson Harding herring pond Wampanoag raised in Cedarville South Plymouth by Verna M. Harding herring pond Wampanoag tribal elder descendant of love Saunders. She attended Plymouth Carver school system most of her life and graduated Pembroke Academy. Melissa is a Commonwealth of Massachusetts licensed real estate sale association associate with Jack Conway and company and a notary public. She is the elected chairwoman of the herring pond Wampanoag tribe located in Plymouth mass. She volunteers much of her time to better serve her tribal community in her dedicated role as a chairwoman. She currently serves on several committees, lots of them. Let me tell you, and that are engaged in social justice and educational initiatives. So Melissa, two minutes or less. Why did you become involved in anti mascot work. Hi everyone thanks for having me. Well I, I guess it really started I grew up in Plymouth as you know and we all know Plymouth is America's hometown. And although we did not have a mascot per se. I think we constantly had the Mayflower and the whole pilgrim story sort of shoved in our face growing up our whole lives. So being a native child in the town of Plymouth was very confusing and being in the school system. We were not taught the real, the real story of our people. So I think for me it really started there and I just remember, you know, seeing some of the mascots for some of the other schools and feeling a great deal of embarrassment almost and sort of. I guess that's the word, especially particularly when I was subjected to going to go get my birth certificate and reading my collar or race and be in determined as read written there and type on my birth certificate so I think as being as being elected chairwoman. I started really taking a good look at some of these issues and looking at some of the other mascots and it just really, and lighted a passion in me to to get involved and speak out about it. The truth is native people feel invisible and often dismissed and these mascots really do us no justice.  They're intended to deny the diversity of tribal nations and communities today so I'm happy to be here to speak out and I hope we can make a difference in educating the public on why these images are, are not good for us. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you. This is a member of the Mashpee Wampanoag tribe with a bachelor's degree in broadcast journalism and political science. After switching careers from television to news to education. Shawna found her true passion that is teaching sixth grade science and social studies at the Hanover middle school and Hanover Massachusetts. Here Shawna collaborated with other native and non native advocates to successfully retire her school districts mascot, the Indian. She is passionate about continuing to honor and educate others about her present and ancestral heritage. So Shawna, two minutes or less. Welcome. What has been your personal reaction when seeing mascots. Thank you for having me. I guess my initial reaction to seeing Native American mascots stems back to when I was in high school. My school's rival is the Braintree Wamps. And as a Wampanoag.  Like, when I see native mascots, the first thing that comes to my mind is ignorance. And in this case, ignorance is not bliss. In this case, ignorance is harmful. And people need to educate themselves. So when there was a match in high school against our rivals, my school would have banners all around the school saying, Stomp the Wamps, you know, I get ready to Stomp the Wamps. And it made me, it made me feel like I couldn't share who I was because I am a Wamp. And it made me feel like shy and not want to really be myself, or even identify as my Native American background. So that was my very first initial encounter with Native American mascots. And now that I'm older, I'm not shy about it anymore. And having voices with me really makes me want to make a difference. So that's why I'm here today. So thank you for having me. Thank you. Okay, so I'm going to get to the questions. Hopefully we will have enough time. We have a big panel and I want to hear personal stories, point of views. Like, I really am hoping that there's some deep listening that's going to happen today and hopefully some a greater understanding and education. So my first question is, in what ways are Native Americans portrayed in mainstream society, and even other representations of Native Americans in US society like consumer product names, logos, movies. And is that a form of cultural appropriation? Or is that about non-native control? So, Anthony, what would you say is representational cultural appropriation? You mentioned a very important phrase in that question and that's, it takes our own voices away from us. People that are speaking for us don't necessarily include us in the context of being this relationship that's always important to Indigenous communities, no matter where Indigenous people happen to come from. Kinship is very important to us, and that was the foundation of a lot of, even the basis of these original agreements, so-called treaties, in that, in our traditional culture of the Blackfoot, when we first saw European Canadians, we call them the little brother. And that was, it was a family term and we welcomed them in and very shortly after we became wards of the government. So the relationship flipped, which meant that our voices ceased to be our own. They became something else that, if we were spoken about, if we saw ourselves reflected anywhere, it was not, we didn't have any say in that. It's taking away our sovereignty, our autonomy, our relationship to the greater society. And that's been very damaging. And our stories, like I said before, very important. And everyone's story is important to that wider story. But we are in the process of healing today, we're in the process of going back and reclaiming our languages, our traditions, and giving the space to speak about that is important. But to exclude our lives, our voices, our stories, our experience from the wider narrative continues to be damaging. So, not nothing about us without us. Thank you. That's a very powerful statement. Melissa, are Native Americans and Massachusetts visible through this kind of representation of mascots to mainstream society? As I said, the truth is Native people feel invisible and often dismissed, and there are no mascots do honor to our tribal identity. And I think promoting the notion that they somehow make us more visible, or that they're harmless fun to reduce our Indigenous people to characters or stereotype images is just ridiculous. I think that's what I would say about that. They're very destructive. And there's many studies that say so. So, no, they do not make us more visible. Right. And Laurel, you were just talking about your research that you recently submitted a review. And this is about how Native Americans are viewed through mainstream society. Would you care to take one minute to expand on that just a little bit more? Are you talking about the mascot review or the other study? The study that you just submitted about how mainstream society perceives Native American. Okay, so that's a team of four of us. Jennifer, Jamie Folsom, Virginia McLauren, Arianne Easton, and Stephanie Fryberg. And we had over, like about 3,000 college students from 12 colleges and over 2,000 other people that were not college students. And in general, what exists is an invisibility of contemporary living Native people in all sorts of representational forms. Meanwhile, there's some portrayal of Native Americans, somebody else's study, I mean, Native Americans in the past. Somebody else found that in high in curriculums across the country, 87% of what's covered is prior to 1900. So it's not just history, but it's history prior to 1900. And most of that coverage is stereotypes. So it's misleading representations of Native history that homogenize natives. Most of what we found is still kind of the violent warrior, violent chief stuff with a little bit of kind of the noble, the noble stereotype thrown in there, both of which are misleading and contribute and were used historically to enact harmful policies against Native people. So that's, so it's a kind of horrible representational situation of contemporary invisibility and historic stereotyping. Thank you. So, Brittany. How do you feel about mascots and do they portray native peoples as a native person how do you feel about that isn't an accurate portrayal. I'm not in the least bit. These mascots, as Laura was saying, they really just show either that natives could be violent or noble. It's a very simplified one dimensional stereotype that comes out of these mascots. You know, native people are multifaceted people and modern people and we exist today. So the fact that these mascots really relegate us to the past, it really hurts representation for native people today. And also, if you're speaking very literally on what you're looking at for the visuals and the logos. A lot of them are not even accurate depictions of native people in the area. So, for instance, you'll see a lot of the typical profile view with a large feather bonnet on a male. You'll see for a lot of native mascots which is not even the correct style of what a native person who may be going to defend their community that's not what they would even wear in that in the history. Or today it's just not accurate so in all different ways. It's a very inaccurate depiction of native people and it's just a huge disservice. Thank you. So, I kind of wanted to get your point of view and a one do you really think that that this most native mascots are male oriented male native oriented the savage the warrior the fighting does this represent you. The terminology I just want to take that brief pause because the term warrior, it does come up and I don't know I personally I do not take offense being called a warrior, savage red skin, obviously there are many name that comes out of their head tone of racism that come with it. Warrior, for example, non set out on the Cape, the non set warriors that that is where they were defending their territory quite efficiently. They actually forced the main flower to sale to plummet because they were no longer welcome there so I mean that a little, that's a little touching that one community and a lot of this has to do with again, how is the local community feeling represented. And are they represented. I do want to point out someone like the seminal tribe, who made a specific arrangement to use their name and terminology and imagery I believe so brain tree or quick wampanoag. I've heard of these folks but jurisdictionally we weren't even in that area. The imagery that I hear goes along with that very derogatory I just heard from a fellow to remember how it made her feel. So no, in a nutshell, all of them are very degrading. I also want to end on just pointing out that why can't we promote more of the good positive influences that have been in not just native culture but American culture. Jim Thorpe, classic example. It's, it's horrific to hear that people cannot even come up with one name of one individual Jim Thorpe as an Olympian. He prayed professional basketball and baseball. I mean like this guy was a football. He did it all. We had one right here in New England, tires and brown for those of you who are familiar. Anybody in New England, I've been very proud to meet quite a few individuals who are aware of this man and his establishment his accomplishments, but he too went to the Olympics he too is a recognizable symbol that I myself still look up to I look up to many role models that unfortunately aren't considered, I guess, noble or Thank you, Anna one. So, I want to start from the very beginning I want to make sure that we have a clear understanding of mascots. So, Laurel in in very brief terms. This is your field of study. Can you please educate us on when native mascots became fashionable. I can be brief. So, as I mentioned before, historically in the US there were two stereotypes, and they were used by whites to generate harmful policy. One was the what scholars called the blood thirsty savage and the other one was called the noble savage. The blood thirsty savage was used to, you know, kill native people and shove them and restrict them to particular locations and move them. And the other stereotype was used for assimilation and white control over native people and so forth. So, the, you know, the, the warrior stereotype that's currently still used in mascots. That was not something white people liked historically I mean that was in their minds extremely negative. When the quote unquote what's called Indian Wars ended in the late 1800s. That's when, after that, some whites started to adopt the kind of warrior stereotype native warrior stereotype. For their teams, it really took off in the early 1900s. This was at the same time organized sport was rising up. And there was a kind of crisis with white masculinity and they like latched on to both native mascots and particular animal mascots, and the animals that were selected were animals perceived as aggressive and violent. And so, here you have lots of native mascots being selected at the same time as animals that are perceived to be violent are also selected and that's the main mix of mascots that rose up and that's the main mix of mascots we still have. Thank you. Thank you and I'm also, I just wanted to also point out that at this time in the late 1800s early 1900s, our children were being removed and put into boarding schools and culture taken away from our children as a policy of intentional cultural genocide. And at that same time, as Laura had said, that is when the melting pot of America was trying to find a common identity. And so native mascots were being used. So I just wanted to put that out there is not a very savory topic but it gives some clarity on why they're being used. If we're striving to do anti racist work. We must undo the systemic and institutional racism that begins with all of our children in public schools, beginning at the early age of kindergarten with the myth of Thanksgiving and Columbus day. The hurt and the harm of this kind of education is real. And it is lasting. Furthering acceptable racism through the use of mascots in high school cements these learned biases and makes this type of cultural appropriation acceptable. What are some instances of biased stereotyping or racist behaviors have been experienced in high schools of mascots with you Larry go you shared an important experience with your son. Yes, certainly just real quick I wanted to touch on Laurel just circle back a little bit to that. And around you pretty much set it up, and it's important for educators and people who are trying to find answers to the problem with mascots, you know just kind of rewinding back to the history let's just first ask the question what is a mascot. And essentially goes all the way back to medieval times when people were having talismans and it had to do with conjuring spells and a lot of mythology and so on. So that kind of transported into having these lucky charms as it were as a good luck form of winning at a sport or so on.  And that's where you know indigenous bodies began to begin to take that place. And as Rhonda pointed out during this time it was the time of the removals this is the time when more states were added to the Union about 100 years ago all the states are being added in these were being pushed out west. Our children were being rounded up in boarding schools. There was no Indians allowed and dogs on signs in my great grandparents time. And so this is the time that native mascots bore into and at the same time, Asian Jewish American and Latino American that the most disparaging and reprehensible cartoons were being drawn up at the same time these mascots work. And I mentioned this many times somehow the native mascot survived but but all these other images are, you know, have not because we recognize them as a port. And one of the things I realized in that and I think about why people still accept native mascots and it's, I see that sort of a coping mechanism not want to in a denial in a sense of not wanting to recognize that we've been causing this harm for so long. And that's why it's important to have these conversations look at the genesis of that. And getting to the point where Rhonda talked about growing up in my town about 12 years ago now we had to remove a very disparaging mascot as well. And the superintendent and principals and the staff of school are very welcoming that we went on to this endeavor because once they kind of took a look at it and and we had these talks in front of the school they realize how horrible this idea was this network mascot it was this creature like look like a half bird half human and the nose was just it was just really horrible looking that's I didn't want to even bring the image here to show it because it just nobody needs to see that it was terrible. And these are the kind of things that I'm supposed to look at in my children to represent who we are. So when my son was about 11 years old we played football and the pop Warner team. And as I said, many as Brittany talked about in our knit month community we have many native mascots and knit month this and knit month that. So in our town of course there was a knit month mascot and knit month team. And while my son's out there playing football somebody, a few people in the crowd started doing that thing and, and it was in my son, you know, in his teammates as well they all were looking up and, and this lady we just going at it she was going at it and my cousin, who's not here. He passed on top I went over to her and talked to us did you know, is it this Native American children out there playing and this is highly offensive and, and the lady she says, Oh, I didn't know. And so there's really a lot of ignorance around these kind of things and shortly after my, my son, he was so embarrassed he quit the team he's probably mad I'm even talking about it now but it's important to remember these. These incidents is because I've spent my life work 30 years now, working at this since I was 21 years of age to, to prevent these kind of things that that they wouldn't happen to my children enough. And they're still happening and it's so and it's in its heartbreaking. And as some of the younger indigenous people on the panel are still experiencing that. And so we're really trying to make changes that and we certainly appreciate the efforts of educators and allies and and accomplices who are really out there working with us to make this change and start to see the deleterious effects that it's having on individuals lives. Thank you. Thank you. So let's see Jamie, you must see this when you're on the road at games at different schools with mascots and as a second part to that question like what do you see at schools with mascots. Would you move to an area with a mascot. So your children went to that school. Right, so. Yeah, as a as a former athlete and then and then having coached. You know, and has good but now back in Massachusetts for the last almost 15 years. When you go on the road whether it's recruiting especially around state term and time. You know, not a lot has changed in some aspects, since I was a player in the 90s and things like that.  Invariably at some point during the game the Tomahawk chop is going to break out especially during a state tournament game.  And that's, and that's often the case you know when it's when a school says oh well we're being very respectful. We're trying to honor with, which we know is is not true but the other side of the coin is when you when you play another town and you go on the road you can't control. How they're going to embrace that and so you know you sort of get it from from both sides.  You know all these things are really pretty damaging. You know, often when we leave games at Haskell. You know our kids would be infuriated, not only with the way we're treated by the officials because we were native in the crowd but it was upsetting it was really hard to process how to really feel you feel sad you feel mad. The good thing is we had each other so it was sort of kind of kind of, I think, I'm only mentioned earlier kind of being together made a little bit easier to process but you know it doesn't take away from from those memories and things like that I think and you mentioned, I have two sons. They're both athletes. And when I moved back to Eastern Mass I grew up in Eastern Mass but as you mentioned I coached out in Western Mass for a number of years. And when I moved back.  I didn't want my students, my kids to go through that. You know as native native folks and native athletes and so automatically right away I was like we're not, we're not going to do that. And so we looked for towns and communities that that was diverse and hopefully welcoming and that you know did not have native mascots. That was sort of an automatic. So, yeah, even in 2020 right 30 years later, it's the same conversations like Larry said. Yes, absolutely. Thank you I went through the same thing my own daughter. She does not go to the local high school here as they are the mohawk warriors, and I did not want her to go through that same experience that I went through I went I went to mohawk trail regional high school as well. And I did not want my daughter to have that same experience at all so she goes to another school without that mascot. Brittany I see you have your hand raised. So, in my youth when I was in high school I was not a high school athlete, I actually did my sport of martial arts outside of any kind of school organization. So learning about athletics and how they interact with the schools and how they function is a bit new for me. So looking at native mascots and looking at athletic philosophies I have found one really interesting reoccurring thing that I would just like to bring to light if we're speaking on what you see in sports today so although I may not be a coach or a high school athlete I would just like to bring it up. I would go online and find the Massachusetts Inter Scholastic Athletic Association's taunting policy, which I find very interesting to bring up. And if I could just read a little bit of it quickly. It states that taunting includes any actions comments by coaches players or spectators, which are intended to bait anger embarrassed ridicule or demean others, whether or words or words are vulgar or racist included is conduct that berates needles intimidates or threatens based on race, gender, ethnic origin, or background and conduct that attacks religious beliefs, size, economic status, speech, family, special needs or personal matters. And then it goes on and on to list all of the punitive things that they will do to discipline any athletes, any, any spectators they might even be ejected from the game athletes might not be able to play, and how they address coaches, and I find that really really interesting because these schools are putting this quote into their athletic handbook so they know what taunting is they know that it's inappropriate to taunt someone due to their culture due to their ethnicity.  Thank you very much for bringing that up because it is. It is a double edge sort of way of looking at it it's. Yeah. While you're here, Brittany. I hear constantly that the intention of mascots is to honor native people. Brittany is this honoring native people by using mascots such as warrior Indian brownies, red raider wants knit muck. I didn't quite hear the end of your sentence nor do I think I need to understand the question. No, no, this honor. It's not true honor it's it's just patronizing something that I often find myself saying is you know if you if you really want to honor native people get involved. Meet them, reach out to them, talk to them, because you, you cannot force honor on somebody like that that's, that's no way that honor works. It's just a flat no for me, even the ones that are very straightforward like the mascot that I brought up the, you know, the knit muck mascot, even that didn't honor. Doesn't honor me didn't honor my father doesn't honor my tribe in any way, you know, something to honor native people would be to listen to them. You know that's pretty baseline. Listen to them this is not something new that native people have been bringing up so listening, having empathy, maybe actually teaching the real history, maybe bringing in a native representative or a native. Anything maybe an artist a storyteller assault with a lot of us do more than one thing and we're right here in the area, getting people and genuinely interacting with them that could be honor but using our images as mascots to have who know what's happened at games and pep rallies. That's not honor that's just something that people say to make themselves feel good. And so still acting as devil's advocate here Shana is this this this is honoring and it's had a long history. Can you talk a little bit about that is this is this honoring a long history and is and is, you know, how does that sit with you. It's funny. It's funny because Native American mascots do does not definitely bring honor to Native American people. And to say that it comes from a tradition right so when I was trying to get my school district to retire their Indian mascot. The biggest, the biggest, I guess, fight against me was that well this was our tradition, and we've been the Hanover Indian since 1964 and many other schools can say the same. So in reality Native American culture and its history began 15,000 years ago, right in the end of the Ice Age. And, and so how can a history of 15,000 years, compare to a schools history of having that as a mascot for 3040 years. That's not true history that's not true tradition. And to see students with headdress logos on their helmets and t shirts. It's, it's making a mockery of us. It's a, at that point it's a costume, and we know better as Americans to not on Halloween right. We can't even talk about it because I feel so wrong. It's even thinking about it, but we don't dress up as a different race if we were to put blackface on right. We know that's wrong. So why is it okay to put feathers in our hair and to put war paint on our face. It is the same thing we know that we can't do things to our face to make us look like a different race. But when it comes to Native Americans, it seems like people forget that.  Thank you. Um, we've all heard that the intention of mascots is to honor, and the intention might be felt as a good thing. But what we honestly need to look at is intention versus the harm. And there is decades of empirical evidence and studies that show the outcomes and effects of mascots. So Laurel very briefly, can you sum up what the empirical evidence is against mascots what is the harm. Sure. So, um, Joseph gone, Stephanie Freiberg and I recently published a summary of all the research on effects, which we're making the point that educators need to look at the effects as they do with everything else in their own way that they should do. And the findings of the studies that we reviewed are can be grouped in two ways. The first group is studies of effects on Native people, and the findings on that are that exposure to Native mascots lowers the burden of the name of Native youth. It reduces the capacity of Native youth to imagine achievement related cells for themselves for the future. It reduces native use belief that their native communities can make a difference. It also other studies increases negative feelings of Native younger people. It increases stress increases depression increases hostility. And in one study, it caused some native youth to avoid going to athletic events. Then there's a larger body of research that looks at the effect on non Native people. First of all, one group of studies shows that for non Native people, Native mascots are associated with negative thoughts and negative stereotypes of Native Americans. The probably most important set of studies in this group shows that exposure to Native mascots increases negative stereotyping of Native Americans. A couple studies also show that it increases discrimination or the tendency to discriminate the exposure to Native mascots does that further. Those who are who favor Native mascots are more apt to hold prejudice and negative stereotypical ideas than those who don't. All these findings are about negative effects on non Native people, which are like increasing prejudice and stereotyping and discrimination, which is not sound. Obviously that indirectly then affects Native people, because if you've got all these non Native people with these biases, then that's going to affect their treatment, how they vote and and other things like that. So that's the findings. Thank you. I guess I just wanted to really drive home that that these. We have the highest rate of teen suicide. I mean, I'm not playing oppression Olympics, but these are the facts. We have the highest rate of teen suicide. We have the highest rate of Native men that are incarcerated, or are killed through police brutality. We have the highest rate of murdered and missing Indigenous women, we have the highest rate of sexual assault of any race on this continent. That is north. I mean, of America and Canada. And a lot of this is through representation and how we are viewed and how we are treated. So I kind of want to make this an open question but I'll direct that to Anthony like how your experiences and how you've been treated as a Native person. Is that through. Do you feel that it may have been through the effect of biases. Absolutely. My own experience relative to growing up. Indigenous in a non Indigenous society, we were brought up in the city of Calgary. And in the 1970s, the common term, the blanket term for any indigenous person who chose to live off reservation was urban Indian. The effects of what we saw as children growing up were all negative. They were either drunk, panhandling, living on Skid Row, welfare bombs. We didn't have any positive role models. We lived at the effect of all of these, this institutionalized racism. In terms of the context of my own experience. And Bron to mention this before with board boarding schools in the United States, the last residential school in Canada closed in 1996 in Saskatchewan, while within the lifetimes of most people living today. And we were not allowed to leave our reservation to find work to sell products of our own. We were forced into farming. After the loss of the buffalo. We weren't allowed to leave our reservation until 1958. If we did we were, there was a past system which was illegal. It was a violation of our human rights and they knew it. And as they buried that documentation, there was this lack of a relationship that we us indigenous people always held as important, because we felt that we upheld our traditional agreements with the treaty system. And we didn't see the benefits at all, in terms of how we were received, how we were treated real. As a result of not seeing any positive reflection of ourselves growing up. We lived at the direct effect of that. I lost two brothers to alcoholism there. They died on the streets of Vancouver and Calvary. I just recently lost a nephew who died in the same way as my younger brother a few months ago. And there was no notice, no investigation no autopsy as to the reasons behind their their passing they were just other just another dead Indian. And so when we get to the point where we don't see ourselves, where we don't see our own stories, we're the under under cold story. And the fact that we're speaking up about this representation now is because we haven't been allowed into our voices haven't been heard in the wider context of American or Canadian society. And the fact that we've gotten here in our own healing journeys is it's it's testament to, you know, our own struggles and what we try to do to educate and keep those kinship bonds going because my grandfather said that we have to live together. And this is a good way to do that by having these conversations and these forums. Thank you. Thank you. I often hear that removing mascots will eradicate indigenous people. Malien, will we disappear did the Penobscot people in fact disappear after their mascot removal. I hope not I'd be out of a job. And I think that it's so interesting because up in Maine, there are five reservation communities. And growing up you'd be surprised how many times I heard that people didn't realize there were any indigenous people in Maine, Maine is 98% white, I think. And I don't talk about invisible, you know, the only portrayal of us in Maine society was these high school mascots, and it wasn't us doing the portraying it was these non native students dressing up in the headdresses and the war pain the feathers. So, if anything I've seen that when we remove those. It has sparked all these discussions about, you know, well, why were they asking for that, you know, what, what did they think and feel how are their lives, you know, there's definitely the, the group of just outright racist, don't take our identity and these mascots away. I have seen this growing amount of people that genuinely did not know there were tribes here. They relied on these mascots for their knowledge of Native people, and it is uncovered for them this whole new world of well let's learn about the tribes. Why are these mascots wrong. You know why are they feeling that way so if anything it's been really positive for people spreading, you know, awareness and compassion and humanity, and a lot of these. You know, we talked in the previous question about the racism we face dealing with these battles and I think the, the violence against activists speaking out on these things is just immense. And it's something that I've struggled with I know that a lot of people have you know I was getting rate threats death threats people were threatening my children. And it's like over what your high school mascot, you know these are like people in their 40s and 50s, so attached to their glory days. You know that they get this angry and violent, but it's so much deeper than that. It's really thinking about what do I merit, what do Americans identify as when you don't have cultural roots. When you don't have family traditions and stories. When you feel disconnected. It's no wonder they grab on to that and they want to be that and when you confront them about it and say well actually that's my culture that's my family that that's my religion you're saying it can be a very controversial difficult process to get through, but I think in Maine we're working through it very well and the change had to come in the form of a law, because people can't argue with that. So we talked a lot about the, how it's a fact you know today in this conversation it's so great to hear, you know we just accept these things now when I was coming up as a teenager, a lot of things were so blurry, and people didn't accept that mascots were wrong Indian mascots. So it's so refreshing to hear. These are the cold hard facts, this is the research this is the numbers and the data, because that arms us, making these policy changes and decisions and that leads into behavior and attitude changing and it sure does take a while but but it really is worth it. Thank you. So, with that question, you know how should communities with mascots and logos move forward. And I know that that answer to that question regarding mascots will become apparent after creating lasting and reciprocal relationships with area tribes within the educational communities and communities at large even with these mascots. So is that a beneficial approach creating reciprocal relationships with tribes and the one beneficial to whom I guess I'm sure there's a personally try to find silver linings in every cloud so we'll see cups half full and half empty, having said all of that. It's a necessary step. We can make rules and laws and even just do away with imagery and names terminology and whatnot. If you're not educating as to why you're not educating as to the. It's a hidden battle that unfortunately we've just we've heard a lot of testimony from people and how this is affected just about every single one of our individual lives where our kids can and cannot go to school. Our loved ones and their self esteem and their struggles and all of this. So it's an important part that you don't just wash it under the rug, wipe it away, not that again, we're going to disappear the problems going to disappear the arrogance and ignorance will disappear. We're not really we're barely scraping the surface. We don't actually people so whenever I do education I always encourage parents to attend with the children. A lot of these children are being taught things in schools now that their parents were not exposed to. When they get home with that information the child then has to defend what they just gained in a in a school setting. Of course, sometimes if you're in the wrong household. The parents always right so unfortunately, like I said, we as advocates within our own communities. I just want to just take a little bit of time and just thank my brother and he's only there for what he shared. It's a tragic tale that all of our communities go through the lost loved ones again the inner struggles the battles with self esteem that a lot of us we don't know until it's too late and they're gone. To hear that there are no role models in these communities that these people can look up to and emulate. That's what we that's where we have set up a conversation from what the non native communities need to themselves. I want to speak to all of us in this new community that we need to step up ourselves. We need to be there for our kids we need to set those examples. Not just at times like these conversations but you know every day daily lives how we interact with one another how we interact with our children and our community. Thank you. Thank you Anna one Larry can you expand on that like what would be beneficial about going into communities and schools with mascots and creating an educational program or lasting reciprocal relationship. I think sharing the stories from the people as we're doing now. These are shared and lived experiences of indigenous people of today, who have, who are recipients of what we call generational trauma, the boarding school area the removals, the missing and murdered indigenous women. The beatings from law enforcement, the discrimination, the alcoholism, the depression, the health disparities across the board, the poverty. And so our communities were faced with these issues because of that. And so the mascot is all part and parcel of that and you're just going back a little bit to what Malin was talking about in Tony you know when people get so angry about they just know this they get this indignation about him about that's my mascot and it's really about story right when we're talking about story. So what story are we telling to ourselves and as a traditional storyteller I really inherently receive that understanding so America was taught a story of exceptionalism were exceptional people.  And so, and at the same time, indigenous people were told the story that they don't matter. So as I said as a storyteller, we are part of the land and the land is part of us. Everything that we share is a place that someone can actually go to see the water the river, the trees, the landscape the cosmology the way the sky sets is all part of that story. And that was taken away from indigenous people so they have nothing to reflect back to the skies became Greek, the water and land became English. So we don't have self identity anymore other than what we're told by other people.  Hence you have in 2014 to 2016, we had 24 suicides right here in Massachusetts this is what we've experienced. So we're losing one child a month from a native community for two years straight. And it's all goes back to that identity how do we feel about ourselves. These are the words that we need to get out to the people who are on these boards and are making decisions about native bodies in terms of a mascot putting us on that helmet. That's not a real. That's not a real form of education. That's not a real form of reciprocity and an or an opportunity for us to learn or share and also I wanted to expand that the non native community is missing out a great deal to look the wealth and breadth of indigenous cosmology and epistemology that's out there whether it's alga culture whether it's cosmology science, the history of this land, you know, most people don't know. There are more native people per race race or racial identity served in the military revolutionary or civil war and so on. And so these are all facets that nobody knows about nobody's talking about. And these are important things other than, you know, charging on a helmet that should be talked about. Thank you. It's really important points. I'm kind of going to go back just a little bit. Malian had a great point as a native woman myself personally speaking up for change. I have faced harassment online bullying threats of harm. You name it all kinds of thankfully Anthony is usually by my side. So I feel safe. Sometimes I'm the only native person standing up in front of school committee meetings or in in these community meetings. And I honestly don't feel safe. And it is a lot of time. Now the one silver lining to COVID is we're all here on zoom. Right. But most folks they live two hours away or more. This is not a reality for our school committee meetings. So to have a turnout like this has been a real silver lining like I said to our COVID right at the moment you can hear from multiple native voices are true experiences. So, I guess, Malian, your experiences, can you please talk about the importance of making a statewide change, rather than an individual school by school basis in the state. I know you did this in Maine, we're looking to do this in Massachusetts. Absolutely. I would highly recommend doing this at a state level. And I come at that as we had already changed all of our schools actually by the time we had the law by like two months we had changed the last school and then the document effect but I still feel very, very strongly that we need the right place. When I started my activism around this we had probably 30 to 40 schools in Maine, using these mascots and kind of one by one they changed a lot of them did it on their own. Some of them collaborated with native speakers and communities. I did a fair share of speaking at different schools throughout my life and and we saw a lot of great changes. I was in high school directly next to our reservation was the Old Town Indians and in 2005 they made the change, and it was such a huge weight lifted, you know, being able to send Penobscot students there without having to be an Old Town Indian. So a few schools that really held on. And a couple of them are using the term warriors, but they had a lot of the imagery and the face painting and the feathers and stuff. So I think we get into to a nuanced area there. So they did vote to remove imagery but keep the warriors name in those two cases. And I agree with Anna one that, you know, a warrior is something I think a lot of us take pride in, and that's definitely more of a gray area, but kind of the, the approach we've taken in about removing that imagery is the most important thing and kind of keeping an eye on the behavior and stuff. So we had one community, the scout hegan Indians up in central northern Maine, and they held on to their mascot fiercely. The scout hegan comes from a Wabanaki word. So, you know, they, they really felt, you know, I tell this story a lot they really felt so connected to it but I had a gentleman who now serves on the school board. Walk up to me after a meeting put his finger right in my face and said I'm just as Indian as you are and scout hegan is my tribe. So it hit me right then like this is so much deeper than just a mascot this you know these people have really you know they think they're a tribe. So, we've done so much work you know they voted in 2015 to keep their mascot. And we've done so much work in educating that community and to the to the credit of a lot of our allies in that area that just didn't give up and kept bringing us back and making us feel safe you know I was accompanied by the chief of police sometimes going to those meetings. So, so they really did do some work to try to make the environment a little bit better for us. So we were able to get some people on the school board that wanted really wanted to make this change and they felt embarrassed by the people in their community. But there was also this groups called scout hegan Indian pride that is very dedicated to keeping this mascot. Right now they are trying to elect one of their leaders to our state house. They are big President Trump supporters. They see this as you know, we're all snowflakes and we want things locally correct. So there is this movement to try to bring these mascots back and some of these places and rural main and now that we have the law on the books. That really slows that backwards movement down because we can point to this law and you know a law is a hard thing to undo. It's definitely needed. Thank you and you mentioned scout hegan Indians we have the same kind of situation here. As I mentioned before. The trail regional high school the Mohawk warriors when you put those two together. It's really hard to unsee a native mascot and the rebranding effort. Honestly, from my perspective I feel like it's a waste of money and they have spent money on trying to rebrand themselves as something other than a native warrior, even being Mohawk trail regional high school. I know that recently. Brittany you had worked on getting together a list of schools in Massachusetts and at one time that was around 40 schools. Have you seen a trend in the last few weeks. I have seen a trend that is a little discouraging so in creating that list it does touch on the nuances that people are speaking on right now where you may have minimal changes at a school or a rebranding if you would say so. It's kind of tricky to really pinpoint exactly what you want to look at, but for schools that are flagrantly offensive. There are two right now within the last week or so that have been defending their mascot which is really discouraging earlier in August we did have two more that, you know, they, they got rid of their mascot which is great. But yeah, it's something that I believe we just kind of spoke on but having some kind of law would really, I think, help because for me, you know, I often find myself going to different panels. And with of course COVID silver lining of being on zoom I'm able to do that pretty much at a drop of a hat. But otherwise, I mean I have a life we all have lives you know we're all activists if we're going to be going to these panels but we have things to do some of us, you know, whether we just have a full time job or we have families or we have classes to get to whatever it would be we were, we have other things to do besides go to these different meetings in different towns. So, something that would just cover it on the whole thing that would that would really be helpful because other than that you have native people who are going to these different towns trying to fix a problem that we didn't create. And, at least in my personal situation, my tribe already spoke out and has an official letter against these mascots so why, why do I have to, you know, keep saying and repeating whatever says, on one hand it is important to have native voices at the forefront of these meetings, but on the other, we already spoke, we just haven't been listened to. So, to have some kind of state level law, it would really really allow people like myself and others on this awesome panel, it would allow us to put our efforts towards something else maybe put them towards something that would help with representation in those towns or at least something that we would probably rather do versus putting our efforts into these fights and in my experience I have seen arguments for and against it and I think that's a bit silly you know, oh well it would be greater if the towns did it on themselves but sometimes the town isn't going to make a move until something greater tells them to so it really shouldn't be oh which way should we go. Again, look at the native people and how we're being ignored by weighing these options, it would help us if we were able to have a state level ban. Thank you. Can I add something quickly. You may. Just to add, you know, I think it's really important. It's a great point that these individual towns and I understand that their elected officials, you know, have sort of a duty to sort of listen to their constituents but I also feel like they have an obligation to do the thing. And I think Brittany just said it almost every almost every native tribe and organization in the state and beyond you know we talked about, you know, the National Congress of American Indians and their statement, you know, but almost every every local tribal community has gone on record and said, you know, these these mascots are inappropriate they're harming, and it's time for the state to get rid of them. And I don't think every local community is capable of doing that and I think it's really paramount that our elected officials do the right thing. And sometimes that's not popular. But, you know, especially in in the times that are in right now. I think it's even more, you know, more paramount that they do that now is the perfect time to do that. I don't think we need to wait any longer and so I know there are many other issues at the state level that are that are equally important, but I think this is this is really low hanging fruit for them. And I kind of urge them to to not wait and delay on this thing longer and help the local communities in this process because I think there are a lot of people at the local level that would like to see their change, but they do run up against resistance. And often that resistance is organized and throws even if it's a small amount of people they'll throw money at the sort of propaganda to try to keep those mascots alive. And like Molly and said they, they do believe that they're they're the tribe they are the satans they're the satans or they're the warriors. And I think it's really important that the state elect officials, you know, step in, make the right call and do this quickly and swiftly so that we can sort of move forward with the education and the healing that's needed. Thank you, Jamie. Very important words. Melissa, and I know that for 35 years now. This state house has heard that the state flag and seal bill come through their halls. Do you have any words to to talk about the state flag and seal and how that represents you. And what you would like people to know. You know, I, I think the state flag and seal. I mean we've all, we've all read the reasons why it's offensive, obviously the sword represents, you know, not great things and I just think that we have to educate everyone that's the most important part. We've all witnessed the erasure of our existence and I think it starts with that the flag and the seal. They're like the, the mascots in the in the towns, it has to be statewide. I know it's it's great that the towns are accepting the fact and many of them are doing the right thing and changing these mascots. But I think it's a much bigger issue. I think, as I said, it starts with education and it's our, our responsibility as tribes to share our voices and to to educate the public on the reasons why. So, I mean I think. Yeah, that would what that's what I would say about the state seal and the flag. Thank you. Learn. Before I close is there anybody that would like to speak before I close I want to make sure that everyone's voices are heard. I have a general comment about change that is aligned with what other people are saying. We do need massive amounts of education. But as you all know the percentage of native people in Massachusetts and in most other parts of the US is relatively small and doesn't have access as much access to shaping curriculum in the schools. I mean individuals can go into schools but widely shaping the curriculum and widely shaping the media. So, for the long term, I think a lot we need to like, you know, make big efforts to try to get systematic changes in curriculum and media. But it's very frustrating, I think, that this is up to non native people democratically, whether it's the town. You know, making a decision, the school board or whomever, or in this case the state legislature, and it's like non native control over native representation and over native identity. And that's incredibly frustrating. And the only answer to that I think is for people to realize that that it shouldn't be democratic, and they're just going to listen to the voices of native nations, pan tribal organizations like the National Congress of American Indians, and the native nations in their area and just do what they say, even if they don't understand it. And like give away their quote unquote control to native people and I really think that absolutely has to happen and it's very fun, you know, and as we know about the effects of these mascots now. And I get more and more angry because the public knows this. And so they, they might not understand the issues, but they do understand the native position, and not listening to that is really offensive. Carol Shawna, did you have something you'd like to add please. I just wanted to before we close encourage everybody, especially those non natives and natives who are watching right now or later in a replay that while we wait for the bills to hopefully get passed and made into laws here in Massachusetts to still advocate still for your voice. Don't be afraid to come out and talk about how you feel what your experiences are because just before this summer. I never spoke on this issue because I was afraid. And then it got to a point I was afraid that I would lose my job in a predominantly white community when I didn't have professional teaching status yet. So it was just the time and something told me just do it just say it. And maybe they'll be accepting of you. And they really were my community absolutely was and I was shocked and I'm so proud of them. But even if your community isn't your voice is still going to be heard by somebody. So while we wait for those bills to get passed into laws, please continue to speak up or use this time now to encourage you to do so. Thank you Shana. I know Anna one you have something you would like to say, but I need to let you know that you're coming in really caught up. So, I just wanted to let you know that I might have to like stop you. Okay. This audio is any better. So I just wanted to follow up with what everyone's been saying and again, thank everybody for their time and their concern to be part of today's conversation. I'm not sure folks can hear audio videos been muted. So I just wanted to find out. I'm hearing some common teams here. One of which is the fact that we have to defend our right to our own identity, and that this has to go through a democratic process with outside individuals. There are ways that they have intimidated us as rounded and others and I think it's very shameful that our women have found themselves in these situations. There are intimidation tactics of our own that I think we have yet to employ. One of which is lawsuits. Not sure if anyone's hearing me, but I'm sure that they hear that when you guys get into their pockets. All of these people I hear that are defending their right to be as Keegan. These people who are defending their right to be native red men.  I'm curious how many of them are going to be so quick and so eager to own identity when they're in a class action lost. So I think that if we, again, we made a very point as the Jamie, we have written documentation already on file from all of our leadership. We do have congressional documentation as well from an overall all across Turtle Island representation. And then of course if we do, we are fortunate to receive legislation in the state and other areas. And it's an issue of, well, we just got to bring bringing it to that. It's a lawsuit. Someone's going to have to pay for this because bottom line, truth and reconciliation, those of you who are familiar with it, the Catholic schools can just say oh we're sorry. What we did, they have to pay for that, they have to invest in that, the reparations, the repair that needs to take place. You know what, you're breaking up. Getting Larry and the folks like us to go in and speak. That's great. No, our funding needs to be made. The curriculum that Laurel mentioned on a work on a national level, not just regional. And then of course movies as well. I think we can find a way to use most people learn things through watching media. So I think that those are avenues that we should explore. So hopefully I haven't seen too much time. Thank you, Anna one. I would like to take this moment to direct. Any questions from the audience. For our panel. A couple of things there are some analogs in others struggle to what you're facing now. The removal of the flag as symbol. The removal of civil war. Covering factories as symbols. And to begin to happen and the removal of some very racist commercial brand. So there is some movement in this area, but it requires. There is no time that you can stop saying what you've been saying because what the politicians just don't hear. And to think that I've said it and I don't need to say it again. You need to keep saying it your entire life and hopefully some parts of the administration will pick up on it. And first I'm concerned you need. As many allies as you can get one of the things that helps. That has helped in the civil rights movement is voting a lot of people and not people to make a difference in the election of somebody who is in favor of this against somebody who isn't. And if you do not have enough people to create that block then you need allies in terms of just getting the vote and getting that kind of movie going. So. You're not alone. This is not something that hasn't been faced. And I think that it's important to look to other people having similar situations, talk to them and get them to ally with you. And it's. It creates more power. More people. More diverse. Thank you. Thank you for that comment. I think it's important to understand that Native Americans did not have the right to vote. It was not secured until 1966. A national Congress of American Indians have been fighting mascot since 1968. So we're continuing that fight here today. And Native American spirituality was illegal until 1978. These most of these are within my timeline. And we're still fighting and we're not giving up. And our younger generation is also here today. Thank you. Stacy. Yes. I would like to say that I think it's important for us to not say what you should do. So I just like to take issue with that. I think it's important to acknowledge what one of you said about you're tired of having to represent yourselves in this, which is why I said that you, too, the co-directors of Okiteo are generously willing to educate us. And share in the education of us because actually Okiteo and this. The concept of Okiteo is for you, not for you to have to teach us or be told what we should do about racist attitudes or do. And I'm going to take an opportunity to thank some people. Because the National Endowment for the Arts is supporting our activities on educating our community on with our, with Native programs and also with Black artists programs. So this is an our town award that was given for people to have access to Black and Indigenous lives and arts in our community. I would like to thank Hal Round who is now sponsoring or putting this live stream up and in in their archives of this entire series. Also, I do think there are some legislators who are standing up and they're sitting down in the room right now. And I'd like to thank you for being with us and also for your support. I think that the whole legislature should be supporting these laws. And I used to pride myself that Massachusetts was first in many different freedoms in this country and we're sorely lagging behind in regard to Native, the seal, the flag and mascot laws. But the people who are in this room, Senator Adam Hines, Senator Joe Comerford and Representative Natalie Blay are ones that are helping lead this charge in the legislature. And we hope you win soon. Thank you. I saw one hand up in the way back. Okay, go ahead. I'm sorry, is that Zoe? What are resources that we should be looking at? Does anyone have any information that we can share? I know that we can go, you can go to MAindigenousagenda.org. There's a lot of information there on that website about the bills that are currently up and how they can be supported. And again, I want to reiterate mass peace action is having this coming Wednesday from 10 to 1230 an online lobby day. I encourage you wholeheartedly to go to both of those websites and participate. So I want to thank our panelists one more time for taking time out of their busy day. And thank you to our supporters. Thank you very much for being here. We could not be doing this important work without the support of our allies and accomplices and that's you. And Okitao means to grow. And because of your generous support, we are truly growing. So thank you very much. Thank you for listening. I'm going to go around there pretty much said at all. I want to certainly thank all the panelists from coming out virtually as it were to Okitao and you are like just fabulous leaders and activists. So we hope to have you all out here in person doing multiple events and you know, showcasing your work of doing solos and so on whatever you would like. That's what Okitao is about. So I want to thank everybody for coming out. Just really just heartwarming to be a part of this myself and I really appreciate it and could the bottom ish. Thank you. Say hello to the people who are live here. Thank you for coming to this line. Thank you.