I tell lies when it sorts me. Today we're going to talk about Jimmy Savile. Greg wants to tell us about the videos we're going to watch. So the video is from a thing called Is This Your Life? After he had done a This Is Your Life show, and the interviewer is Andrew Neal. And I think Mark can better describe what this is. Yeah, Jimmy Savile was Sir James Savile, OBE, a national treasure at one point. He was a prolific presenter, raised money for charities. He was one of our biggest serial offenders ever in the UK.   Lots of girls, didn't it? Well, I think it did. Well, you said it did. We spoke to a longtime friend of yours who knows about these things. Bunny Lewis. He is. Yes. There was a funny little hotel tucked away up, not that far from Tottenham Court Road, where Jim used to go. Whereas other disc jockeys, which he was at the time, used to go to quite smart hostilities around the town. Jim would go to this very small one where he'd have his bicycle tethered at the back, whether that was for a quick getaway or not, I'm not sure. And we sometimes have a bit of fun around there, if we'd been involved in a program together or something like that. And we had a few friends there, because a lot of other artists are there. And one in particular, Jim might remember, called Norma. I don't know whether you'd like to ask him about her. So Jim, I think I would like to ask you about Norma. Tell us. I don't mind getting Bunny off the hook, because he's married. Now, his girlfriend is called Norma. And he has now fixed it for me to get him off the hook with his mrs. So me being single and a few bob and a building society. Yes, Norma, a lovely girl. I'm not the Frenchest idea that she was. So you don't remember Norma? Of course, like it was yesterday, and it wasn't Bunny's girl at all. He has never been unfaithful in his entire life. It was me, it was me who was beastly with what they call her again. Norma. Norma, Norma, yes. Maybe there were too many, Jimmy, to remember. Maybe there were too many. Yes, well, no man need be ashamed of his working clothes. You kept your clothes on.  All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so what you're going to see, I think, throughout this is really a vaudeville act, a big, let's say, buffoon, an exaggeration of a human being. Why is this? Because we have somebody here that we know is hiding in plain sight. This person has abused more people than anybody else that we understand in British history, but also was one of the UK's most important entertainers and razors of money for charity, had audiences with the Pope, with the Queen, with Prince Charles, visited the Prime Minister at Christmas. This is somebody who managed to get themselves at the heart of British society and at the same time commit some atrocities. I'll talk about that more throughout. But what do we have here? Just a massive act in front of Andrew Neal here, who's the editor or was the editor of the Sunday Times. So should be a very strong interviewer. Well, he's brought up Bunny Lewis here as a character reference here. Bunny Lewis, record producer, drag act in the 1970s. It's clearly making, I think, Jimmy, a little bit uneasy, but still super casual. Look at the bent wrist there. Just kind of lots of bends in the wrist. You know, somebody who's wanting to be really active, they'll have lots of energy going through their wrist. Him bent wrist there, super casual and a feet pose, I would say, with that break at the wrist. Here's what we're going to see throughout, that he will deny things, attack other people, and then reverse the victim and offender. I can talk about this a little more later on, but he does that most interestingly through sarcasm and going in the opposite direction. So instead of denying any act, what he'll do is play the act even harder. Say that he does do that at an extreme, just be an exaggeration throughout. There. I hope that's a nice kind of start bookend at this. Greg, what are you on this one? Mark, we're going to say the same things because this guy uses sarcasm and that, making something ridiculous to farce, takes it to farce as a way of gaslighting, as a way of taking it to less, to mean less.   That's the way he plays this is it's his character and that fool.  And if you think of medieval times, they used the fool as a way to entertain people because they're not dangerous. When a fool is dangerous, they're terrifying because now they can go anywhere they want because everybody trusts them. That sarcastic laugh he has used over and over and over. And what he does is insulate himself by pulling the audience to him and protecting himself with the audience. Watch when he does this. In this case, it's not a big deal. He's a womanizer. Nobody's in the days they're talking about. This is a 1950s probably. There's not such a big deal. So he's not got a lot to hide. But wait until he gets further in and we see him do that. In here is the guy starts to talk. His internal voice is prepping for response. And by internal voice, I mean looking left, looking left, looking left down. And then this is one upmanship between guys. He thinks of a way to turn it back against him. When I was in high school, I had a chemistry teacher and I think it was geography teacher who had gone to high school together. And one of them told me the other one dated a girl called Booger Sleeves. And for obvious reasons, Booger Sleeves. And the guy said he's only jealous because he married her. You know, it was one of those back and forth one up and ships. And that's kind of the same thing here. So if you play with this, this is just a person doing their usual thing. But the other thing that we're talking about here is this is the organism does what made the organism successful.  Scott, what do you got? All right. Yeah. You guys are nailing it. This is an act. And every time that the interviewer zeroes in on something, he blows it up really big to make it go away. It makes it so big it literally pops and dissipates. So that's his plan of defense in the situation. We see a huge seating adjustment when he starts zeroing in on that stuff as well. He starts talking about who the guy is, that type of thing. And then when he says, I've got a big blink rate spike here somewhere. I've changed to this notebook instead of having him up here. I can read him on screen. So it's getting tougher to do. Well, I can't find that part. Anyway, so he turtles. We see him turtling as well. We've seen all kinds of stuff in here. It's really a great group of examples of seeing body language. But after a while, it just sort of gets old because he's doing this show of the dad and every time it happens. So he's defending himself by blowing stuff up and making it almost so it's not real.  Chase, what do you got? Yeah, you'll hit a bunch here. But two things I want you to pay attention to as we're going through this and throughout the rest of your life. When you interact with the person, what are their defense mechanisms made of? And what are their stress responses or their mask made of like the image they present to the world? And masks are usually made up of the opposite of whatever that person might be trying to hide, which is typically guilt or shame is what the mask is put on there for. As of watching this this morning, I had no idea who this was. Never heard of him. So obviously, I thought grandiosity was here. He's extremely uncomfortable with the topic. The moment that the video starts playing on the screen and the topic comes up, a lot of his behavior is accentuated with this chin thrust and he's just bringing his chin up regularly, which is what people do to issue a challenge show that we're not afraid of somebody exposing these vital organs here. And he uses this line about working clothes, I think to potentially imply that his status might make the behavior acceptable and justified. With no idea who he is.  And that's with no idea. I did Google him halfway through video, too, because it was so ridiculous. That's all I got. I don't understand what you're saying. Did you say status? I'm sorry. You mean status. One of those tapery plays.  Did it? Well, I think it did. Well, you said it did. We spoke to a longtime friend of yours. Did you? Who knows about these things? Bunny Lewis. Here he is. There was a funny little hotel tucked away not that far from Tottenham Court Road where Jim used to go. Whereas other disc jockeys, which he was at the time, used to go to quite smart host stories around the town, Jim would go to this very small one where he'd have his bicycle tethered at the back, whether that was for a quick getaway or not, I'm not sure. And we sometimes have a bit of fun around there if we'd been involved in a program together or something like that. We had a few friends there because a lot of other artists are there and one in particular Jim might remember called Norma. I don't know whether you'd like to ask him about her. Well, so Jim, I think I would like to ask you about Norma. Tell us. I don't mind getting Bunny off the hook because he's married. Now, his girlfriend was called Norma and he has now fixed it for me to get him off the hook with his misses. So me being single and a few bobbing the building society, yes, Norma, a lovely girl. I'm not afraid to start out who she was. So you don't remember Norma? Of course, like it was yesterday and it wasn't Bunny's girl at all. He has never been unfaithful in his entire life. It was me. It was me who was beastly with, what do they call her again? Norma. Norma, Norma, yes. Maybe there were too many, Jimmy, to remember. Eh? Maybe there were too many. Yes, well, no one need to be ashamed of his working clothes. You kept your clothes on.  She's laughing. He's always had a knife in the ladders. Um, young ones as well. I say young, I mean, you know, the proper age. 16 upwards. And he's always had one. His philosophy would never get married because I don't think he could stick with a person more than three days. And I don't think he can still stick with anybody more than three days. Is he right when it comes to women? You've got a short attention span? No, women know too much. I'm all for girls that don't know too much. It's a different class, you see. When you are single, it's because of some reason that you like being single. Jesus didn't find any problem with it. I don't find any problem with it. A lot of the time, people say, What? You're still single. You've never got married. Why didn't you get married? The answer is, I have the fenced idea. We don't believe that Jesus was quite a ladies' man, though you are, or have said you were. No, no, no, he used to knock about with the ladies. It says so in the book. The oaky house, he was talking to them in the oaky house. But you were ducking and diving? So you were like him too? No, I'm not like him at all. I'm just saying another famous person, he was single, it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me. Do you get bored after three days with the same female company?  They get bored with me. I'm very boring fellow. But if they get bored with you, or you get bored with them or whatever, we're talking about a life, are we, in the 60s and 70s, of lots of lovers, lots of female company? Oh, that's a long time ago, I've forgotten now. You can't remember how many? No, the marks, there are only marks there, I don't know. They're healed rather well. I'm healed, yeah, yeah. But have you had lots of female relationships? Oh, we hope so, because being alive a long time, I would have hoped that one would have had lots and lots of them. But have you remembered? Unfortunately, no, you see. And anyway, I never have been a grass and a gentleman never grass it on ladies as ever. But we're not asking for names, we're just asking for the general prince of... Oh, I mean... We just want to know if you live this sort of playboy life of the DJ. Well, yeah, give or take a few nice ladies.  I don't know where you come from, I mean, I don't know what your circles are, but my circles, ladies, are very... you don't grass on them.  But now I'm just running around in those days. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, let me just start by saying times are different and, you know, 16 years old is the age of consent, I believe in the UK. Times are different. People used to have Mary when they were very young and these are older men. So maybe there's something odd about this or not odd about this for them, but it's odd when a person starts off and corrects their statement about you liking young ones and moves it to statutory age of consent. That should make you have an immediate odd impression of this person when one of his friends says that. Then the guy talks about three days as long as he would be with them. We do see something interesting. We see a real Duchenne smile with zygomatic muscles and the obicularis muscles and a smooth forehead when he's talking about three days and he does kind of a... I can't believe he remembered that. He's probably about more than three days, but then there's surprise in his face which probably is like I'm surprised he remembers this. One of the weird... The ones here that makes me not trust this guy and really believe all this happened is when he says something about women new too much, I'm for girls. There's no humor in his face when he does this. What we're going to find is the fool in the humor is a way of pushing things away. He doesn't hear. Is this a confession? He talks about them being in a different class and part of what he's accused of is to do with people who were not altogether there, who were institutionalized, situations like that. So it's pretty bad. Then he goes to high ground and when you take moral high ground and you try to compare yourself to somebody, Jesus is not a good choice. You don't take the highest ground and say, hey, Andy hung around in brothels, but what you're doing, and you'll see this in your day job, what you're doing when you associate with someone who has that marked status is you're trying to take that status for yourself. People who live in Princeton and they're smart because they live near the university are those kind of folks. What he's doing, here's a couple of things. We talked about gaslighting in the beginning where he is using something to make it so large that it goes away. He's also using humor to smoke screen what's actually going on.  You've heard us talk about trances where you can't reach somebody. Eating is a trance-like state because my mouth is full. I can't talk to you. We're going to see him use a cigar the same way. I think this guy has got a lot of little hidden subroutines to give him power. Chase, what do you got? I agree. And these little hidden subroutines are something that everybody's got. And just about everybody you'll ever meet. And when he's saying that women of proper age, there's an immediate transition to a guilty facial expression. Type those three words into Google really quick and look at some Google images of guilty facial expression. You'll see Anthony Wiener. You'll see the Bill Clinton stuff. You'll see all kinds of stuff. And his face goes right into it. And it's perfect. You'll see it right away. Chin tucks down. The lips pull together. The eyebrows go up. And when he says, I like girls that don't know much. Then transitions into I'm just like Jesus. Then I'm boring so they have to leave me. And then I'm sort of a playboy. And then I'm not a playboy at all. And you have to have manners when it comes to women. In one monologue there. And the banana here is I think is a pacifier and an adapter. And he's using movement much like grandiose people do during conversation to accomplish a three pronged approach here. This is distract. Calm themselves down and take ownership over self and the conversation. So it's a three pronged approach to this movement adjusting socks and all of this while somebody's talking. That's what's going on right here. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, look, everything is a distraction here. You've got the chaff of the banana going on there. Okay. And yes, it is to pacify him. I believe it's also there as a comic. There's nothing funnier than the banana. It's phallic.  It's a crazy color as well. And of course he's wearing that, you know, crazy track suit, you know, bold color, the jewelry, bold, bold, gold to not only give status, of course, but also to shine to give people something else to look at the glasses. So you can't quite see into his eyes. The way he'll land on certain certain phrases and certain stresses. Jimmy Savile was one of the biggest impersonations that any impersonator would be able to do. Interesting enough, him and Rolf Harris, who again turned out to be a serial offender. In fact, Jimmy Savile took Rolf Harris for a private tour of Broadmoor Hospital, the psychiatric hospital. I mean, there's a web here of extraordinary offenders going on. So chaffing with the banana there. So we know that he knows that this is going to be a tricky interview because like any magician who's going to use smoke and mirrors, he's already loaded his banana. He's already got a loaded banana in his pocket ready to go, ready to go just in case. And he should know that it's going to be tough because Andrew Neil was an editor of a newspaper. So Andrew Neil possibly knows the rumors or the facts that are already going around and have been going around for decades around Jimmy Savile. Look, you know, it's comic as well. It's a classic, Emmick Kelly, the great American clown with Ringling Brothers.  You know, if in doubt, if the act that he got was going badly wrong, wasn't getting the laughs, whip out a cabbage, eat it, cry, it's a winner. I think that he knows the same.  You're going to get people back to where you need them.  Therefore, he's looking for innocence. And so there's that idea of, I like the girls who don't know much. He's looking, any predator isn't looking for a fight. A predator is looking for people who have no power and therefore are likely not to have any agency whatsoever like go to hospitals where people can't move because they've had such serious accidents and spinal injuries and their kids that they just won't be able to fight back in any way whatsoever. This was or maybe turn up at some morgues as well. And, you know, he would volunteer to shift around bodies in the dead of night. There's nobody who can fight back less than a dead human being. So this is the kind of person we're dealing with. So again, he's hiding behind, just as you were saying there, Greg, that banter, that British banter, hiding behind that parring and that jousting that's going on. And of course it looks very normal to us for him to be doing that because again we've got somebody Scottish having a bit of a banter with somebody English, Northern English, you know, to be, so not so much animosity but still it's fair to have a lot of strong banter if you're English with somebody from Scotland. So it's all hidden in exactly the right cultural way that this audience will be laughing at what we now know to be somebody hiding the huge misdemeanors that they've been part of. Scott, what have you got on this one? I think what we're seeing is, like I think you guys were talking about earlier, at one point he's the greatest guy in the world and the other point he's a depraved, you know, bad guy. And again, he blows this stuff up to make it go away. And when he talks, he keeps calling himself a gentleman during this.  You know, this reminds me of like one of those 80s bands when they first were getting famous and they think they were real famous, but they were only famous in their town. The way they would act is exactly the way this guy is acting. Having been a record producer, I knew a lot of those bands.  And that banana, I think it's part of him showing that he's rebellious because he's eating on TV. That's where I think his ego is taking him. I agree with you, Chase. I think this is narcissism. It's huge. He thinks he owns the world right now because he's not busted yet. So, which I don't know the story of how it ends up with him, but I know he gets... Does he get in trouble for this, Mark? He dies before. He dies before. Yeah. 2011, he died. Oh, man. And then the revelations come out. Oh, that's horrible. God, who is the most humble person you worked with as a record producer? Um... Gosh, there was quite a few of them. Mostly the most humble are the best musicians in the world, period. The best singers in the world, period. Jerry Douglas, the best dobro player in the world. He is... I've known him longer than I have known since I was a kid. Greatest guy in the world. Alison Kraus, just sweet as she can be and just could not be any more concerned with fame or being one of the best singers on the planet than you would be about what's in, you know, my coffee cup. How good my coffee is. So quite a lot of them are actually really good people. But the metal bands, that's where you got to... You get those egos because it's all about egos and getting girls and all that. That's why they're in it. Most of them. Some are in it for the art and music, I'm sure. But I'm sure there are some in that.  But you don't know Maiden. They're all really nice. It's Ozzy. Ozzy's the kindest guy. But you know what? I never met him, but I was the greatest guy in the world. Eddie Van Halen, didn't know him well. But when I'd see him he'd say my name. But I think at some point if I'd run up and kicked him, he'd tell the cops it was. But he was the nicest guy in the world. You'd think that those guys would be nuts. But anyway, back to it. After the discussion about the number of women that he'd been with, that's when he starts talking about himself being a gentleman. You can't have it both ways. You're not a womanizer and a gentleman too. You can be that the creepy guy who thinks he is and do that. Or you can be a gentleman. One or the other. I think that's kind of got away from him there. Mark, is it banana or banana? I say banana. You may say something else. I say banana. I've heard Chase say banana a lot and I was wondering if we were all doing that now. Well, the braids notice an R after anything if you say the word Max says banana and it will have an R at the end. So does Boston. So does Boston. Oh, Boston is the worst man. There's this guy, one of my best friends, Paul Romano, and he wanted me to teach him how to speak southern. And I said, well, I'll say magic marker because he would say magic maca. And I'd say no. And so I said, this is go slow. Magic and he'd go magic and I'd go magic maca. Couldn't do it to this day. I don't think you want to do it or did you guys notice when he started talking about Jesus, the whole chatter, everything in the room went dead. All of that laughter went away. All that laughter went away. That's one of those tape replays. He's always had a knife in the ladders. He always had a knife in the ladders. He always had a knife in the ladders. He always had a knife in the ladders. He's always seen upwards. And he's always had one. His philosophy would never get married because I don't think he could stick with a person more than three days. And I don't think he can still stick with anybody more than three days. Is he right when it comes to women you've got a short attention span? No, women know too much. I'm all for girls that don't know too much. It's a different class, you see. When you are single because of some reason that you like being single Jesus didn't find any problem with it. I don't find any problem with it. A lot of the time people say, what? You're still single. You've never got married. Why didn't you get married the other day? I have the fenced idea. We don't believe that Jesus was quite a ladies man though you are. Or have said you were. No, no, no. He used to knock about with the ladies. It says so in the book. He was talking to them in the okie house. He was talking and diving. So you were like him too. No, I'm not like him at all. I'm just saying another famous person he's a famous person. He was single. It's good enough for him. It's good enough for me. Do you get bored after three days with the same female company? They get bored with me. I'm very boring fellow. But if they get bored with you or you get bored with them or whatever they go away in the 60s and 70s of lots of lovers, lots of female company. Oh, that's a long time ago. I've forgotten now. You can't remember how many. No, there are marks there. They've healed rather well. But have you had lots of female relationships? Oh, we hope so because being alive a long time I would have hoped that one would have had lots and lots of them. But unfortunately now you see I've got this and anyway I never have been a grass gentleman. Never grass it on ladies as ever. But we're not asking for names. We're just asking for the general principle. We just want to know if you live this sort of playboy life of the DJ. Well, give or take a few nice ladies. But I mean you know a gentleman doesn't ever speak of ladies. I don't know where you come from. I don't know what your circles are but my circles ladies are very, you don't grass on them. No.  Um... Bananas weren't around in those days. Why have you shied away from close relationships with women? I'll be talking about a few close relationships tonight if anybody's not spoken for. But why in the past have you... After the Joe Ladies, a few close relationships. I'm sure the offer will be taken up. But why in the past have you avoided close relationships? Why in the past have you avoided close relationships? Because I've never been in the same town more than about 48 hours at any one town. It's just a life cell I've got. It's not my fault.  I've fallen in love every day of my life. Oh, every day of my life I've fallen in love. Two, three, four times a day. I could get married immediately except the lights change and you have to drive off because I go in the other way or the train pulled out the station and you're going I want to marry you. But on the platform... My passion is very near the surface. I get well in love very quickly.  Is that a casual matter for you? You mentioned the S word. But we had to get round to it eventually. Did you? Oh, you're talking the wrong guy here. Almost a no grass ear. Is it just casual? What? Sexual relationships. What relationships? Oh, and I've read about them. Yeah, I've read, not in your papers, but I've read about them in the smaller papers and yeah, see what you mean now. Yeah, no, well, obviously, if a lady has been upset and she has said to me, only a relationship, like as what you mentioned, I can't use that word, I can't make me less happy. I'll say, feel free to use me and I say, feel free to use me. I will sacrifice myself to you anytime and then they say, thank you very much. And then they go, that's not my fault. Not down to me. Ladies, here is a perfectly honest man. Hello. All right, Chase, what do you got? There is an undercurrent in this specific video that I want to make you glaringly aware of and spot this stuff in the future when you see people get interviewed. Really quickly, I'm just going to ping on each little thing. There's awkwardness. There's avoidance, overcompensation, resistance, stress, a need for approval from the audience and pacifying gestures to calm himself down. If you're seeing this behavior in a person in this position and with this background who would reasonably provide answers to these questions, even if the answers were nondescript or lacking in detail, most people would reasonably say yes or no or I don't want to talk about it. I'm not comfortable talking about it. Then you're probably seeing evidence that something much more powerful is being hidden about the same subject. Unwilling to answer about surface level stuff means something is very much hidden about the deeper stuff in the same subject matter. This behavior would have allowed you to predict the downfall of about a dozen people and even one Hollywood producer and one famous comedian who's been in the news within the last few years. Before anyone ever even whispers about it, you'll be able to spot these things in the future just with this one little thing. Scott, what do you got? You tries to redirect and amuse everybody with the audience every time they start zeroing in again on something that he's familiar with, something that could get him in trouble. Even though it's not saying you can get in trouble for this, it's something around what he's done up to that point that's brought to his mind and that's why he does that, so he can get away from that. He's running, in other words. He's throwing up all this stuff to get away and he tries to isolate himself by doing that, by that laugh of a show, because it's all about him at this point, no matter what. Of course it is, because this is your life, so it would be, but he keeps drawing it back to himself. He's not being humble here at all. There's nothing... Personally, it wouldn't look like somebody, even though he's a funny guy, or suppose he was funny. I don't even smile when I hang out with him, because he's so creepy. And his humor is the worst. This is just like the lowest and I know he's trying to appeal to everybody. But man, it's horrible. I don't think he's funny. I didn't giggle or smile or laugh once. I don't think this guy is funny at all. His illustrators get huge. His voice volume gets really loud. Again, when they start digging in deeper to what's happening there, so when the interviewer does.  And I think I can't believe he's getting away with it. Or I think he's so smart, he's getting away with it. Obviously, he did, since he didn't get in trouble until I found out that he was dead. But like Mark said, he was blessed by the Pope. So, man, they're going for him. I don't know. Which is nice. Yeah, which is nice. Yeah, that's... I'll leave it there. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so we talked... We'll find out later. Very close access to royalty. He was a national treasure, as Mark said, so people trusted him. What I want you to pay attention to is the difference between how he answers questions that are pointed and have character assassinating intent to the ones that might be just off the cuff. So, for example, later they're going to talk to him about money and his entire demeanor changes. There's no gaslighting. There's none of this stuff where he goes too big in a classical to make it so ridiculous that it doesn't matter. But here, every time they bring up something as character assassinating, he goes big. He goes wide. And this is... When I say people have subroutines, it's got a little roach when the light comes on. Their legs automatically move. They don't have to think about it because they've done it so many times. And the longer you've hidden and the better you've hidden, the more likely you are to have those kinds of things. Watch what he does. When he's in shock and breaking the fourth wall as he looks at the audience and draws them back in, that's his style to insulate and protect. One of the best ways to hide in plain public is just humor.   And that worked. It diffused whatever they were doing. So if you deal with people like that what they're doing is another form of gaslighting by making something so large, then shrinking it or they're just spouting out so much stuff that they're creating a smokescreen. And I think he's a combination of things and the way you're going to be able to tell and chase your dead on about people having these styles of ways of hiding things. And we get to another serious topic later. It has nothing to do with sexuality. Watch the difference in the way he responds. Watch the difference in the way he responds with words even though it's an accusation. Mark, what have you got? There are no direct accusations here of any abuse at all. Really what this is is a questioning of his character just as you're saying there, Greg. And so what does he do? Well, again, he denies any association by going, I can't even use that word.  He then says, again, he turns it on its head. He then says, oh, I'm in trouble again. So he knows the moves of comedy. He knows that reversal is a key thing to comedy, though he himself is by no means any great comic.  That's the medieval Latin, entrepreneur to hold together. So all the entertainer is doing is, can we hold attention? Can we get attention? And absolutely, he's one of Britain's key attention getters. And that's why the certain members of the royal family came to him for help, for branding help, essentially, is in that he was one of the first people to brand himself as an entertainer, unique and incredibly individual and extraordinary and something that grabbed the attention of the British public during the 60s and onwards. But really, he's got this parody of the villain going on and parody of the saint going on at the same time, saint and villain, saint and villain all the time. He says, feel free to use me. Feel free to use me. So again, he makes himself the victim. Again, that reversal there, which is a classic for abusers to make themselves out to be the victim. Here, he's using it to hide his abuse. And at the same time, it's a comic ideal as well to do that reversal. It's not great comedy by any stretch of the imagination, but it serves two purposes there. One last thing to note here that I quite like, which is the aggressive bite of the banana that happens there. So, there is something quite predatory that he's showing us there on the banana and then holds it in his mouth with the bits spread out just like you'd expect in an American cartoon when the dynamite explodes, you get the same peeled-back banana. So it's like he really knows the memes of memes, which other way you want to go. I know you want to pick me up on that one. The memes or memes of comedy, but there isn't anything really very funny about him. He can do the maneuvers, but he's not a great act as a comedian. That's all I got on that one. It's like he's like with those savants because they're savants because they got hit in the head with something and they play piano very well, but they don't say anything they're playing. You know what I mean? They just everything sounds in place, but they're not saying anything. You know what I mean? That's the case. He's gotten away with us. This has been his organism since the 40s, probably, Mark. 40s, right? Like nine people have left. Certainly the 50s. He was there in the early days of Cliff Richard alongside him, early days of The Beatles, Pirate Radio DJ right at the very, very beginning of popular culture, youth culture. One of those tapere plays. Why have you shied away from close relationships with women? I feel close relationships tonight if anybody's not spoken for. But why in the past... I'm sure the offer will be taken up, but why in the past... Why in the past have you avoided close relationships? Because I've never been in the same town more than about 48 hours at any one town. It's just a life cell I've got. It's not my fault.  I'm falling in love every day of my life. Oh, every day of my life I fall in love. Two, three, four times a day. I could get married immediately, except the lights change and you have to drive off because I go in the other way or the train pulls out the station and you're going, I want to marry you! But on the platform... It's my passion to be near the surface. I get well in love very quickly.  Is that a casual matter for you? You mentioned the S word. But we had to get around to it eventually. Did you? Oh, you're talking to the wrong guy here. Almost to no grass here. Is it just casual? What? Sexual relationships. What relationships? No, no. Oh, and I've read about them. Yeah, I've read, not in your papers, but I've read about them in the smaller papers and, yeah, see what you mean now. Yeah, no, well, obviously, if a lady has been upset and she has said to me only a relationship, like what you mentioned, I can't use that word, if a relationship will make me less happy, I'll say, feel free to use me, I say. Feel free to use me, I will sacrifice myself to you any time when I, and then they say, thank you very much, and then they go, that's not my fault, it's not down to me. I was going to say that ladies, but it's a perfectly honest man. So, but relationships are not a serious matter then for you. It is a matter to joke about. Yeah. It's not serious. Have you never been seriously in love? No. Never? No. Why do you think that is? I don't defend this idea. Most people have been in love at some stage in their lives. Yeah. When you watch a TV and you look at all these films and things, and sometimes as much as it's puffed up to be that love game. You never even felt you might have been falling in love. Never even been tempted to fall in love. No. Never at all. No.  We never see any of them. Never even a snapped picture by the paparazzi. Me too. Me too. Well, they don't really exist, do they? Not really. They don't really exist. No. No, they don't. I told you I was boring. Is it just a façade? Yes. The playboy image? Yes. Or is that answer part of the façade? No. No. You can't win here. It's all just fun and I'm very boring. Thank God. Mark, what do you got? Well, the banality of the banana, which is it's got this banana and he's literally doing lint picking from the banana.  So it kind of suggests, hey, I don't really need to pay a lot of attention to what's going on here. It's demeaning to the people around you. He's doing that on a banana. I don't think I've ever seen that before. I mean, I'm willing for somebody in the down below to go, no, no, no. There's been a lot of lint picking on bananas in your shows, but I don't think I've ever seen that before. That's pretty new. Another one that I haven't seen is venting with the trousers. Venting with the pants. He pulls his pants out and let's go the elastic makes an audible sound so it's percussive. It's almost the end of a punchline. It has a sense of status of it's almost like the ping of the vaudeville, ping of the braces, but it's on the trouser band, which for me, again, does a bunch of things. It means that he can vent. It means that he can get rid of hot air because this is pressure for him for sure. It means he can play a status signal at the same time and have a gag and play a classic of comedy at the same time. And now he's going to bring out his other prop, which was a classic prop for him, which is the cigar. Again, the cigar shows status. Not many people in the UK would smoke cigars, show status. It's phallic as well. So it's a little bit rude. So he gets to be a little bit rude and show high status by pulling out the cigar and give himself time to think, give himself something to do while he's trying to work out how he's going to navigate around what is one of the hardest interviews that he ever had, I believe, this particular interview. Scott, what have you got on this one? I think it'd be safe to say that I've had a little more experience in talking to people like this than most of us in here. And I know what, as you all do, I know what this is. When you see him up to this point, that many videos in, you see that, and you go, I know it. Apparently, nobody else saw it. We wouldn't be able to be out in the wild and say, oh, look at this guy on TV. That's what he is. But when you get him in a room, start talking to him and they're this glib and they're this shallow and they, when every time a person is brought up, they see people no different than a bug not saying Scott's a psychopath, but he sure is checking off a lot of boxes for that situation. He claims never having feelings for anyone. And still, in his interview, he says the people don't exist. And then Savile says, no, they don't. When he's talking about the people that he deals with, those people don't exist. No, they don't. He started to check boxes for me in here. And when you see somebody like this and you get that one little hint that they may be into the kind of stuff that he was into and all start, everything starts falling into place and you go, oh, I see what this is. I see exactly what I'm dealing with one. As you guys know, deal with one now. That's not this bad, but it's a completely different situation. But when you talk to this guy, the first time I talked to him, I said, oh, I get it. I see exactly what we're dealing with here. I knew exactly what it was. Greg, what do you got? I'm going to start right where you stopped around the lint picking the banana we've never seen before. It's the same as lint picking anything else. What it's doing is saying, I got no time for you. Regardless, what they're doing is making self unavailable. He does the same things lighting the cigar. He removes himself entirely. He goes internal. He isn't really, he's paying very close attention. But what happens with people, especially if they're doing horrific acts, is they have to compartmentalize that so that it doesn't show up. Compartmentalization is a good thing. Chase talked about it in a recent video where we talk about a person who is a gunfighter, a person who interrogates prisoners. All of us have to be able to turn things on up. Surgeons, ambulance drivers, we all have to be able to put that in a separate box. But there are noble causes and not so noble causes for compartmentalization and the ability to put those things away. You all understand it. I always say this to people because trauma is the nature of human life. And that part of that person is still with you, but they're also compartmentalized and live in a different space for you. If they didn't, you couldn't bear the pain over time. So we learn how to deal with things in a different way. However, when it's up to no good, it makes it easier for a person to hide in plain sight. And I think that's what you see. When you interrogate what you're after is bringing that person into, I refer to it as cat brain often, but you're taking them out of their frontal lobe into that responsive brain. There's a video that's of this child in a very hot car and his father is trying to take the child out, is breaking the windshield out. That's because that limbic brain is taken over and they're trying to rescue this child, not considering breaking out a back glass, a side door or any of that. And then even more when the person finally gets in the car, they hand the child out through the glass, through the shattered glass. That's because our brains are not capable of thinking we get to a certain point. So in an interrogation, we'll poke and prod and poke and prod and poke and prod until the person responds and your psychological ploys to get the information we want. In this case, this person is sitting behind a big facade and a role that he is well created. And the interesting piece is, he doesn't for me Chase or Scott, but he owns real estate and Mark's head. Clearly he owns real estate and everyone who grew up in UK's head, he's there. So he already has that comedy piece. He doesn't have to be funny. I often say, if you go to a comedy club and drink alcohol, you get in there and listen. Some of the stuff those guys are saying is the stupidest stuff we've ever heard, but people laughing at it anyway, because they expect it. Mark, I think that's part of how they hold it. I'm not going to go in a whole lot more, but he tries hard to get insulation from the audience. He's constantly pulling the audience in. Just pay attention to that and look for why it matters then. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, and I will say, you don't need to be a gunfighter to have compartmentalization. I did nine deployments over in the place that you're probably thinking about right now. You want a really good example of a good person with compartmentalization? Think about a pediatric oncologist. That's an example there.  Pay attention to what's being concealed, what's missing, and what's hidden or unable to be answered or spoken about in every conversation that you have with anybody. If you're in sales, it's helpful. If you're a parent, it's very helpful. And what's being hidden? What should reasonably be there? And what's being hidden right here? What's reasonably there in every conversation? If somebody says, I don't want to talk about that, or that makes men comfortable. Or yeah, maybe I've done some of that stuff and I'm kind of ashamed of it. Nothing. There's nothing here. And to show you how pervasive this is, what is one thing that you'll see in every commercial, every advertisement, every sales page, people tell you the problem that they're trying to solve. You go to Home Depot and buy a drill, you're trying to solve a problem, right?  So the problem that you're trying to solve is there. Apple Macintosh, whatever you want to call them, just launched these VR glasses. And I just watched the little, I don't know, 3-4 minute promo they did for that. Apple didn't openly say what problem they're trying to solve because they can't openly discuss it. And so I want you to know this is in every aspect of your life. What is the problem that these VR guys are trying to really solve?  One of those tape replays. So but relationships are not a serious matter then for you. It is a matter to joke about. Yeah. It's not, it's not serious. Have you never been seriously in love? No. Never. No. Why do you think that is? Most people have been in love at some stage in their life. Yeah. From when you watch the TV and you look at all these films and things, and sometimes as much as it's puffed up to be that love game. You might have been falling in love. No. Never even been tempted to fall in love. No. Never at all. No.  We never see any of them. Never even a snapped picture by the paparazzi. Me too. Me too. Well, they don't really exist, do they? Not really. They don't really exist. No. No, they don't. I told you I was boring. But is it just a façade? Yes. The playboy image? Yes. Or is that answer part of the façade? No. No. He can't win here. It's all part of the snout and I am very boring. Thank God. Thank God. Well, let's see if we can get a bit further on this because we spoke to the very reverent Colin Semper. He's the canon of Westminster and producer of your radio one religious chat shows called Speak Easy. He told us this. The relationship which was quintessential to him was that with his mother, the Duchess that was all important and I sometimes feel that if he had had a long and lasting other relationship than that rather than this nomadic existence, it might have been more fulfilling for him in his life. So according to the canon is it really because you had this special relationship with your mother that you found it difficult to create other relationships with other women? Unfortunately no. Unfortunately. It made life easy if I could say yes but the Duchess had no part in this nefarious knife of mine after dark which was the pop world. But it would be true to say that the Duchess your mother is the only woman that you've really had a special close relationship with. No. Well that's what you said earlier on. You said you hadn't had anybody else. I tell lies when it suits me. I've had plenty of close relationships but like I said Mr. Nograss here I've forgotten every single one but I cannot even recall any one of them just now. I could understand the resistance if we were asking for names but we're not. No. It's simply a principle. Not now but after this TV show all the tabloids come on and say right we'll have a few names now. They've been doing that for years anywhere but don't you find that because of this relationship with your mother it has overpowered relationships that you might have had with other women? When I took a girl home while she was there she'd sling them out if I went to the loo. She'd do that but not because she had anything going for me as a son but she didn't want anybody nicking her life of luxury or first or she'd kick them out the door a bit lively. So she was possessive. I'm sure a lot of mothers will do with something. So she was a possessive mother. She was possessive? No, not really. Not really. She was a survivor. What kind of losing you? What she didn't want was for me to walk in and say hey you know that girl I brought in last week what's she going to move in here and you're going to move out? Who's going to want any of that? Out, get out. Little fixin. Do you think that starts with you ever since? Get out, I'll say. Has that colored your attitude ever since you think? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to sneak him in the back then I used to give her a few quid to go in holiday and then I could take him in then. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so this feint trembling at the beginning is more that ridicule style to diminish anything upcoming even before he knows. The minute he realizes that it is a cleric he changes. He's not so irreverent anymore because I think he realizes the audience didn't appreciate it first. If you don't think the audience is insulation look at him as his mother issue comes up. Look at him reaching for the audience trying to draw them in. He's again doing this cigar trancing thing but he also when the mother issue comes up this makes me really want to poke into his fraud and ask questions because he retreats against the back of his chair pretty seriously. And then he goes back to farce, I've forgotten then he goes to the logic of why he's doing it he turtles but his left hand is balled up when this whole thing around his mother and lack of relationships and all of that come up when he talks about his mother saying that nobody else would get him there's just awkward body language and a nervous smile that lets me know this is hitting too close to home for him and other stuff maybe it's because he lost his mother and there's a whole lot of baggage associated with that but then when he does say that one thing where he says no one else will ever get him he's saying his mother is saying she's just like all mothers, no one else will ever get him well I don't think that's true and then he tries to pull the audience in and when he tries to pull the audience in he gets nothing and then he makes a big smile and there's no eye involvement I think this one more than any other thing we've seen hit home somehow with all the details whether it's because his mother sabotaged something he had a weird relationship can't tell but this one I think hits close to home Mark what do you think? Yeah it's always difficult to work out fully what was happening between him and his mother often referred to as the Duchess maybe the Duchess because of the authority that she had maybe the Duchess because the level that she wished to live and hang on to him at that economic level there's probably a whole bunch of psychologists you can go and listen to talking about what that relationship might be look certainly it's very clear that when this canon comes on canon of Westminster so I'm guessing that's probably Westminster Catholic cathedral canon there Jimmy was a Savile was a Catholic had audiences with the Pope so again you know how can this person hide there people who don't where he doesn't hold that other real estate you'll go okay clearly grandiose narcissist clearly potentially psychopathic you know does acts among at-risk youth I mean there's elements there that won't mean there's going to be abuse in every case of course but you know it's stacking up around potential why would the British public be duped well this is somebody who raised more money than any other individual in the UK for children's hospitals so who would go out and run marathon after marathon after marathon in order to raise money for charity this is the person who was given his own room at Broadmoor hospital where he probably should have been incarcerated as one of the biggest villains that Britain ever saw was given keys to the back door of Broadmoor to be able to get himself in there and stay there overnight so surely the British public would go well if he's trusted in this kind of way by our authorities by Edwina Curry who was you know in charge of Broadmoor at the time if he's trusted in this way then surely we should trust him British public had no reason to doubt that this was a eccentric person but in a great long line of eccentric entertainers well I think at this point we get this childlike jumping up and down on the chair again this idea of innocence childlike you know somebody who would be around children who's like a bit of a child an innocent but then also I think we get the closest here to him being penetrated in some way has this coloured your attitude says the interviewer yeah yeah yeah now if A and then he stops himself then he stops himself and he goes back in time and he goes I used to sneak them in the back so the interviewer here was about to get a moment of self maybe not self reflection but a moment of confession as to what he does now and that stopped that was cut off so closest we get to any break in his facade I think was that moment there Chase what do you got on this one yeah y'all covered most of what I had you're just seeing a desperation for social approval in the face of I won't say a terrible interviewer I think the interviewer is doing a decent job but having some composure here definitely is not asking the questions that I would want him to ask in these instances Scott I agree and I wanted about that but it's because it's this is your life you know is that so it's supposed to be how wonderful this guy is that's why they're doing the show if I'm correct about that this is that no this is a response to that oh okay this one's called is this your life so it's kind of a reversal not quite a parody but a hard talk version of this is your life where you get yeah yeah yeah questions yeah it's similar but they're harder questions okay alright well I want to make the differentiation between a comic and a clown this guy's not he's not a comic he's not a comedian he's just a clown and so that's what we're seeing there's there's no there's no depth to anything I'm sure whatever he would present is to be funny there'd be no depth there either there's no thinking about it just kind of is the lowest common denominator as it has been up to this point I think he's using the cigar that this by now he's used it as everything he's used it as a deflector he's used it as an illustrator he's as an adapter he's using it for everything so it's a great little tool I think that was the same thing with a banana as well and I think back on he's using for all kinds of stuff that still just continues with the shallow and glib answers he can't control this conversation I think that bothers him too so we're seeing that bit of agitation flare up there so that's why he gets so animated and a little bit louder than he has been and I think that's a great example of a narcissist trying to take control of something and he can't and there's no reason for him to since you're there he's there to be asked questions not an interrogation but he's there to be asked questions apparently and that's what that's why it's it's just it's pretty bad um and I think that's what's driving him crazy so and the closer the interviewer still gets to the things that really happened or he could be nailed for that's when he starts acting that way and flipping out and being weird and trying to be funny turns into the clown the fool as you guys say all right so I got we good you know just remember when we're talking about interviewing and interrogating this guy Mark said it he was a national treasure at this point he's not Bob he's somebody who has real estate in everybody's brain nobody has any ideas done anything so you probably have to be a little bit cautious where you go to I would think one of those tape replays thank God well let's see we get a bit further in this because we spoke to the very reverent Colin Semper oh he's the canon of Westminster and producer of your radio one religious chat shows yeah called speak easy he told us this the relationship which was quintessential to was that with his mother the Duchess that was all important and I sometimes feel that if he had had a long and lasting other relationship than that rather than this nomadic existence it might have been more fulfilling for him in his life so according to the canon is it is it really because you had this special relationship with your mother that you found it difficult to create other relationships with other women unfortunately no unfortunately it make life easy if I could say yes but the Duchess had no part in this nefarious life knife of mine after dark which was the pop world but it would be true to say that the Duchess your mother is the only woman that you've really had a special close relationship with no well that's what you said earlier on you said you hadn't had anybody else I tell lies when it suits me I've had plenty of close relationships but like I said Mr. Nograss here I've forgotten every single one not forgotten them but I cannot even recall any one of them just now I could understand the resistance if we were asking for names but we're not it's simply a principle not now but after this TV show all the tabloids come on and say right we'll have a few names now they've been doing that for years anywhere but don't you find that because of this relationship with your mother because of this relationship with your mother it has overpowered relationships that you might have had with other women no if I took a girl over there she'd sling them out if I went to the loo she'd do that but not because she had anything for me as a son but she didn't want anybody nicking her life of luxury or first so she'd kick him out the door a bit lively I'm sure a lot of mothers will do with something so she was a possessive mother she was possessive? no not really she was a survivor but she was frightened of losing you what she didn't want was for me to walk in and say hey you know that girl I brought in last week yeah well she's gonna move in here but who's didn't want any of that out get out little fixin do you think that stuck with you ever since but has that coloured your attitude ever since you think I used to sneak him in the back then or he used to give her a few quid to go in holiday and then I could take him in then but why not be modestly generous with your family and friends well I am but it's more than their life is worth for them to tell you because what they get is plenty but I wouldn't put it about because I'd rather people think I was a bit close it cuts down the begging letters begging letters are alright nothing wrong with them you don't pay them out do you think this almost obsession with money is that a compensation for other things in your life no because I never had him in the first place number one when you wake up in the morning and you don't have to go to work that's not a bad thing especially when you've had to get up at four o'clock in the morning and you walk as I did two miles to catch a bus and then you get a bus to the pit then you walk two and a half miles underground and doing six shifts a week for a pound and five pence does things to you and now there's no such thing to me as a tenor because that was nearly ten weeks put on to that tenor to you holding on to something sure because if somebody says it's only a pound automatically my mind goes once upon a time I work six shifts a week for a pound and five pence I'm afraid whether it makes you antisocial or not you can't ever forget that just like somebody can't forget first thing to death in the desert he'll never ever hold a glass of water and disregard it it'll be an amazing thing for him this is the first time I believe him and what it seems from the previous videos and now seeing this is that he imprinted his mother's limiting beliefs and he thinks it's all from the job that he had and the career that he had so his mother's beliefs were rooted in what's commonly called a scarcity mindset kicking these girls out of the house and he's definitely adopted that now I'd venture to say that this is also not about money entirely what I think you just heard is him explaining how he views women just listen back when the replay comes up you'll hear having to work hard for something having to make sacrifices to get something and then a story about how he evolved out of the needing of that thing and that thing coming easier and easier to him and never forgetting how hard it was to obtain initially so when I say scarcity mindset that just means this belief about resources being very limited if somebody else gains that means I lose and this kind of leads to competitiveness fear and focus on lack the opposite of that I think this was a Stephen Covey book where this came out initially would be the abundance mindset where there's plenty for everybody encouraging collaboration risk taking is better and a focus on potential and opportunities so these mindsets scarcity and abundance can become self-fulfilling prophecies for all of us and influence our behavior our decisions and our attitude towards everybody people around us Greg what do you got? I'm a little more simple in my approach to that same thing what happens to you when you're young and then you layer over it is going to impact your life if you had no shoes when you're a kid you're going to have more shoes or maybe a good pair of shoes what people do is the scars are left with and he says it he calls it out the scars are left with from their past they're going to try to deal with if you've walked through the desert and been very thirsty a glass of water means something you've been to school I would say the most valuable thing to me is not being in a box the most valuable thing on earth to me I'm very unhappy I know from a few days of experience and all those people who go through something whether they're poor when they're young or their parents are not in the picture it affects their life forever how they carry about it whether it's positive or negative is what you just covered Chase sometimes people come out of a very negative thing with a positive outlook hey I made it out of it and sometimes they go into it with a negative outlook hey I made it out of it but that mindset is going to be dependent on one thing and then there are lots of guys who have written books about how to get out of that mindset for sure you can tell this is genuine this is the danger to the guy though he's genuine when he talks about the begging letters no big deal you get to see him using his hands and illustrating and using full facial expressions as he's talking there's no farce no audience engagement none of that none of that why is it that when his character is assinating about sexuality about those things and they poke him and he does all this kind of fool stuff when he gets to real life to real life when he's talking about everyday things we see what he's normally like I would expect those two things are like if I'm defending one issue or the other and I'm being honest in both I would expect the body language to be similar that's why we call it a baseline and if you compare this to those four things that happened before this you'll see a grand deviation in baseline I don't have much on this one but we're just seeing more of his ego doubt behavior and everything that's happened that's bad he blames on somebody else or what happened to him in life nothing is his fault which again goes down the checklist for me he has lots of money but he's a cheapskate so that's he's trying to he comes all like he's got all this money and stuff he's such a great guy but he doesn't help anybody with his money and apparently nothing so that's all I got on that one Mark what do you got? Yeah it's interesting there's a lot of layers here and some cultural ideas that I think he's trying to attach to so first of all there's this bullying tactic it's more than their life is worth to say what money he gives to his his relatives but he says he does give them some but it's more than their life is worth to say that you'll see this bullying but with him time and time again this keeping secrets of course that is a classic for an abuser especially around miners this idea of don't tell anybody keep everything a secret it's an important important tool I think he I think the reason that he's happy to talk about the money and be seen as a miser or a potential miser rather than having to talk about sex and be seen as a potential womanizer or abuser is that the British public have never forgiven a serial abuser ever especially anybody involved with miners or people at risk in some way I don't think there is an example ever of that happening the British public have forgiven miser millions Ken Dodd being the classic example Ken stuffed his roof full of money he always thought the next day I won't be funny he was Britain's greatest comedian arguably and would stuff money in his roof until it was found and then Her Majesty said you owe me several million in tax the British public when kind of went no he doesn't he's been so funny that that he doesn't owe you or us anything and he was let off the tax bill as far as I can see so it's quite good for Savile to go you know what I'm a bit tight I'm a bit of a I'm a bit of a miser because it puts him alongside some of some other British greats in comedy not that he's one but it puts him alongside British greats there are numbers of comedians who fit that exactly that same mold but I don't think it's about that I think he literally has no empathy he and he and he's very clear with that they can send their begging letters you don't pay out you pay no attention you don't have any empathy for for other people that's all I got on this one let's have another I think when you meet this guy going back to people you've met that are are nice or whatever or Hubble this was the guy you'd meet this personality that you're seeing on this show that's the one you meet it's not there's nobody there hey how are you know this didn't you at all it's all about him so I think that's this is what you would see when you first meet him one of those tapery plays but why not be modestly generous with your family and friends well I am but it's more than their life is worth for him to tell you because what they get is plenty but I wouldn't put it about because I'd rather people think I was a bit close it cuts down the begging letters begging letters are alright nothing wrong with them you don't pay them out do you think this almost obsession with money with holding on to it is that a compensation for other things in your life no because I've never had him in the first place that's number one number two when you wake up in the morning and you don't have to go to work that's not a bad thing especially when you've had to get up at four o'clock in the morning and you walk as I did two miles to catch a bus and then you get a bus to the pit then you walk two and a half miles underground and doing six shifts a week for a pound and five pence does things to you and now there's no such thing to me as a tenor because that was nearly ten weeks work it's just that my mind thinks along those lines so you still when you hold on to that tenor to you you're holding on to something a lot more sure sure sure because because if somebody says oh it's only a pound automatically my mind goes once upon a time I work six shifts a week for a pound and five pence I'm afraid whether it makes you antisocial or not you can't ever forget that just like somebody can't forget thirsting to death in the desert he'll never ever hold a glass of water and disregard it it'll be an amazing thing for him what has prompted you to devote so much time to charity nothing better to do I've got, I don't work for a living I stopped working for a living when I came out of the pit I've never worked, done a day's work since you've got nothing to do what I'm going to do I'll sit and look at the wall just because I like it I don't really have to justify why I like it we spoke to Jimmy to one of the people that you helped Michael Rogers he's a former stoke mandible patient he told us this Jim's motives are probably two fold he has great sensitivity and is very aware of adversity in life or people's adversity in life and wants to do as much as he possibly can to help others but at the same time it's for his own glory and his own adoration which keeps him going what do you make of that your own glory your own adoration I live in a very peculiar business it's a business of flash no harm in being flash it's a business of having more front than Brighton and Blackpool put together nothing wrong with that at all as long as nobody else's expense there's nothing wrong with it it's a good, wholesome, fun making thing so of course if I come in here and sit down I say hello to the ladies and gentlemen because I'm genuinely pleased to see them it's your nature you don't have to justify what your nature is so if somebody says what a flash geezer I'd say yeah and they say look at him getting dressed up like that and say no one need to be ashamed of his working clothes I looked a lot funnier when I got covered in cold rust so therefore you are what you are it's part of the business so in a way Michael Rogers is right of course he's right I've been at Stoke and Broadmoor Hospital leading for about 28 years purely as a voluntary worker I do it because I love it unashamedly and 28 minutes is a gimmick but 28 years you've got to like it to stick it for 28 years alright I'm going first on this one I think the guy in the video nailed it and I think he likes being in that position to be able to go to hospitals and things because that's his hunting ground that's where he does his damage or one of the places that did his damage and like Mark said he could run free and do whatever he wanted to that's why he was doing it no other reason you're right Mark again no empathy in this guy that's why he was doing it for that's why he was being such a good person because that's his hunting ground that's what he was going for and I think Robert Harris said it best because he says the psychopath is a cunning intelligent interest species predator and that's the perfect place for him to do that and it says everything somebody that would do that in that situation do the things that he did that right there I think you don't need anymore checks for the psychopath psychopathic personality type or antisocial anyway than that that's pretty hard to get past if you ask me alright Mark what do you got some of Chase's closed eye talking right at the start there again elevating himself putting himself up as being virtuous he's going to love the idea of somebody talking about the the work that he does for charity because obviously it was a massive massive part of his life in order to show a strong facade that wouldn't be able to be penetrated in any way big wide fingers on this bit as well so he's super confident about this so just remember that just because people have big wide fingers doesn't mean they're not concealing something or lying to you just means they are showing confidence and they may be doing that unconsciously or consciously and he's enough of a showman I mean this is a guy who was a wrestler in the early days of putting on a show in the 60s and so he knows that he has to make a spectacle for people in order to sell his brand so 28 years Stoke Mandeville dealing with which deals with people with physical disabilities often children look his other so he had apparently he had his own room at Stoke Mandeville hospital and the keys to anywhere he wanted to go I had his own room at Broadmoor so he was able to have private conversations with the Yorkshire Ripper private conversations with Britain's biggest criminals most extreme psychiatric case criminals I mean there's an argument that says maybe he was locking himself up in there as the penance that he should be doing doing the job that the British public should have done of catching him finding him out putting him through court and placing him in that institution leads infirmary as well so all voluntary work just as you say Scott so that he can get close to victims and it's easy pickings for him terrible state of state of affairs Chase what have you got on this one there's one thing you'll hear us talk about all the time and this is when somebody responds to an accusation by saying well I've volunteered at the local church I've got a master's degree I've given money to these people I hold kids hands when they cross the street this is called a resume statement but I think we may be seeing a resume life right here and it seems pretty altruistic but just taking what we are tremendous benefit of hindsight so let's go into three little topics here behavior analysis this is maybe what it classically looks like first it's a charity contribution can serve as a really powerful tool for influence and persuasion so by donating generously Samuels able to cultivate this image of benevolence and kindness and this public persona might have been a strategic move to gain authority or maybe trust of people second these charitable actions could have just been deflection or misdirection so by focusing tons of attention on this philanthropy he might have been attempting to redirect some negative attention from the other stuff that's going on in his life I think it's also worth considering the possibility of a psychological phenomenon known as moral licensing here and this is when people give themselves permission to engage in shady stuff because they've done something good so in Samuels case this charity could have been a way for him to justify or offset some of the guilt associated with some of his actions I say this because he's literally literally unable to say why he likes doing charity that's bizarre he can't even say that he just enjoys helping people it doesn't come up that's crazy that's all I got yeah it's more than that he says I don't have to justify that is a defense that's a defense nobody asked you to justify it we're just to ask you what you like about it I don't have to justify that would make me jump all over now there are a couple of things I always think about anything a person does and the motivation for it let's talk about altruism right about people in general I'm talking about them being on a continuum of some kind even mother Teresa has to have some motivation that made her get up the first time go over there and start taking care of people and so there's a certain amount of selfishness in what we're doing as well because we're getting rewarded for it somebody's going to be angry at me for saying there's not selflessness in a person who dedicated her life to it not saying that at all but the motivation that causes you to get up one morning and go help other people it's exactly the same thing as a motivation it causes somebody else to do something else it's pleasing the self now there are lots of times that bad people do good things for bad reasons to cover up their own selfishness and that's not what I'm talking about that's what this guy is doing he's doing good things to hide bad things and that's because he's selfish and he's wanting to hide something but just think of people as being on a continuum and if you go so far in altruism that it's satisfying you it's not satisfying anybody else you're talking about something very similar there what that person is doing is satisfying their own needs and I don't have to justify good friend of mine's sister who is not Catholic became a nun and I said how does that work out he said well if you're Satan it's easy to hide in church and maybe that says something about people they go find a place that they will not be questioned and all of us know that the more good things you do the less likely people are to think you guys hear me say all the time the more stellar a person appears to be without flaws the bigger the flaws probably are and Chase you talk about people trying not to be who they were as children it's all the same thing I'll just leave it at that and just say he's been doing it for 28 years that resume statement that blasting out and covering that's chaff that's holy chaff that's saintly chaff so that you'll follow it leave him alone about something else one of those tape replays what has prompted you to devote so much time to charity nothing better to do I don't work for a living I stopped working for a living when I came out of the pit I've never done a day's work since nothing to do what I'm going to do look at the wall just because I like it I don't really have to justify why I like it we spoke to one of the people that you helped he told us this Jim's motives are probably two fold he has great sensitivity and is very aware of adversity in life or people's adversity in life and wants to do as much as he possibly can to help others but at the same time it's for his own glory and his own adoration um which keeps him going what do you make of that your own glory your own adoration I live in a very peculiar business it's a business of flash no harm in being flash it's a business of having more front than brightened and black bull put together nothing wrong with that at all as long as nobody else's expense there's nothing wrong with it wholesome, fun-making thing so of course, if I come in here and sit down I say hello to the ladies and gentlemen because I'm genuinely pleased to see him it's your nature you don't have to justify what your nature is so if somebody says what a flash geezer I'd say yeah and they say look at him getting dressed up like that and say no one need to be ashamed of his working clothes I looked a lot funnier when I got uh so therefore you are what you are it's part of the business so in a way Michael Rogers is right of course he's right people got different opinions all I can say is that I've been at Stoke and Broadmoor Hospital leading family for about 28 years purely as a voluntary worker I do it because I love it unashamedly and 28 minutes you've had the kind of job that's allowed you to make a lot of money as you say it's given you the time to raise a lot of money for other people as well and it's made you your own man you like being in control of things and you like being in control of people for example why wouldn't you let your secretary of 25 years speak to us and come on the program because secretaries spend their time secretarying and not grassing on their bosses that's where the secrets are no no no she knows nothing she's lovely she's a little bit scared of you a little bit I should hope she's a lot but she was a lot because when this is your life was doing you that's a surprise she was so scared that you would be angry that she hadn't tipped you off that she did tip you off that you were going up here everybody tipped me off about everything nobody wants to die young so you do want control to the extent of being a control freak no she likes to know what's going on everybody wants to know what's going on in life but you see you always say what you see is what you get you've got nothing to hide don't look for any scandal there is none here I am so when she pops up in this screen in a minute will you fire her Mark where do you go more of his comic stylings which is to flip between innocence and aggression everybody tips me off nobody wants to die young that is a violent threat essentially but it's done within this context of of innocence and an audience behind him and a brand in every viewer's head that causes the majority of British people you know other than probably John Leiden to go I think this guy is alright it's okay for this one to make violent threats to people on on national television what an extraordinary state of affairs there's nothing we can do in hindsight about these things but it is always interesting to just keep your wits about you as an individual and as a nation when you have these grandiose characters who are wonderful and entertaining and the majority of them have no bad bone in there in their body but if you see them seeking out to be placed within areas of people at risk and easy prey then investigate a little bit further I always do at my kids schools wherever it is likely that people would be easy victims for a predator remember a predator isn't looking for a hard time they're not into the fight in any way whatsoever Greg what do you got on this one yeah I'm with you he's a fool and a fool can make all kinds of accusations and threats and you're okay that's his whole role look at all the goofy things he does however we now know that Scott this fool this clown is the sewer clown this is not the clown we expected that's all I got chase what you got yeah just one behavior here and it's the viewer with these nonstop suppressive gestures as he's making the making these questions and stuff very suppressive wish I could say that with the gusto that Mark likes to say it into the mic but I can't but the obsession and repetitive talking points about grassing which I had to Google today is a huge worry for me if I'm talking to this person and they're obsessed with continually repeating that they don't share secrets that is a major deal so I would I would guess that all four of us would have the same analysis without hindsight maybe and just be a little kinder in the video that's all I got Scott I think the reason he didn't want the secretary to come on obviously she knows it all she knows everything I think one little slip up in there could like be the little thread that unwinds that and does the whole code of the whole shirt or whatever so I think that's why he didn't want her on there and he was kind of aggressive about it sort of putting her in her place and she's not even there but he knows she's watching so I think that I think that's what's going on there I don't think this guy is crazy at all because I think he's most likely a psychopath I hate to go ahead and say that I can't tell because I never talked to him and then nobody would put him through the test or anything but boy he sure looks and sounds like one so that's all I got one of those tape replays well you've had the kind of job that's allowed you to make a lot of money as you say it's given you the time to raise a lot of money for other people as well and it's made you your own man and you like being in control of people for example why wouldn't you let your secretary of 25 years speak to us and come on the program because secretaries spend their time secretarying and not grassing on their bosses she knows where the secrets are no no no she knows nothing she's lovely she's lovely she's a little bit scared of you a little bit she knows she's a lot and this is your life was doing you and that's a to be a surprise she was so scared that you would be angry that she hadn't tipped you off that she did tip you off that you were going to appear everybody tipped me off about everything nobody wants to die young so you do want to be in control to the extent of being a control freak no she likes to know what's going on everybody wants to know what's going on in life but you see you always say what you see is what you get for any scandal there is none here I am so when she pops up in this screen in a minute will you fire her yes well she's still got a job because she's not coming up in this screen you feel that people in power as I understand are value your opinions you like to be involved at the highest level in this society behind the scenes we spoke to bunny Lewis he told us this I would say that he's very popular with them certainly with Charles and I think also with Diana I couldn't go in any length on that because it would be indiscreet on my part I don't think it's what he sees himself it's what they see him as and I think that they have in the past considered and accepted his advice very seriously and indeed benefited from it because I think that he has tried very hard to make the more human so did Jim try to fix it for Charles and Diana no of course not why is it that little sly smile on your face no sly smile it's just that what am I grass I don't grass on number I don't tell things there are certain things which are no go areas didn't work in the end though did it mmm yeah next minute I'll tell you all his secrets then he'll say well that's been a nice program isn't it goodbye no you can have all the time in the world to tell my secrets Jimmy if you give us the full story of how you were consulted by Charles and Diana and spoke to them and tried to save the marriage which is what you did isn't it what is called a no go area which is a very famous phrase of mine because all the papers all had to go up me over the years and I say I'm sorry it's a no go area and on the other end of the telephone they say haha you said you just say that and I say that's right it's a no go area and I don't grass on nobody neither the ladies in my life or people I've helped in my life or whatever but I'm quite prepared to talk about things as long as it's not grassing on anybody Greg what do you got yeah so you have to know when he's making reference and since I'm going first I'll say he had a show called Jim fix it where he would take problems and solve them for people and what they're asking about here is did he intervene in Charles and Diana's marriage really interesting because when they first starts off he's got faint disbelief in his face but it's too quick you guys talk about all the time that disbelief should stay for a split second not disappear immediately so clearly he was involved that shin elevated and that slight smile we typically associate that with pride and then there's an intentional doopers delight intentional and elongated no and then he's go goes right back to his mantra same thing that chase just said is that no grassing piece so yeah he was involved and I think since then it's come out that he actually did go and get involved with Prince Charles now King Charles when he was still with Diana Mark what do you got it's it's it's true that he did it was involved in that it's true that there was a BBC cover-up around all of this that's factual it's factual that he was called in to talk to now King Charles it's factual that he spent Christmas I believe at checkers with the Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher so here is somebody who managed to insert himself at the very heights of the English establishment I mean quite a feat for a working class minor from from Leeds area so it would be an extraordinary brilliant story if it hadn't turned out that he was Britain's most prolific serial abuser he keeps falling throughout this just keeps the mockery up and also does almost the reverse takeover of Andrew Neil here by saying I'll tell your secrets and again this is his bullying tactic it was always his tactic that he had people in high places he had the police he had you know he had politicians he could call in favours and it may well have been true because this was all kept quiet and you know as we've said before it is very hard to keep secrets it's harder than you might imagine even you know very very important state secrets it's very hard to keep them now a lot of those secrets are utterly banal and nobody even really wants to know and those are the easy ones to keep because like nobody wants to know but here's a secret that certainly the newspapers would have unless they had maybe even denotices on them I'm not quite sure um but he does give the impression that big open body language that he is untouchable and he would even say that I'm untouchable untouchable he did have well it would be grandiose if it wasn't true and I think it was true that he was untouchable until his after his death and then and then he became touchable uh look underneath all of this grandiose nature there is some dancing going on he is under threat and pressure here in a way that he isn't in any other interview that you'd all ever see him in this is the only interview where he's really put under any kind of scrutiny because normally you just give Jim the stage and he does this thing and the British audience are bemused, delighted confused entertained by him Chase what have you got on this one Scott what have you got oh thank you pretty much the same thing you do it's a continuation of what we've seen so far there's not a lot you can add to this I can sit here and talk about how he looks like a psychopath and all that but to save us on time I'll just say same old same old one of those tapere plays well she's still got her job because she's not coming up in the screen you feel that people as I understand it value your opinions you like to be involved at the highest level in this society behind the scenes we spoke to Bunny Lewis he told us this I would say that he's very popular with them certainly with Charles and I think also with Diana I'm I couldn't go in any length on that because it would be indiscreet on my part I don't think it's what he sees himself it's what they see him as and I think that they have in the past considered and accepted his advice very seriously and indeed benefited from it because I think that he has tried very hard to make make them more human so did Jim try to fix it for Charles and Diana no of course not why is it that little sly smile on your face no sly smile it's just that what my grass I don't grass on number I don't tell things there are certain things which are no go areas it didn't work in the end though did it mmm yeah next minute I'll tell you all his secrets and then he'll say well that's been a nice program isn't it goodbye no you can have all the time in the world to tell my secrets Jimmy if you give us the full story of how you were consulted by Charles and Diana and spoke to them and tried to save the marriage which is what you did isn't it unfortunately that is what is called a no go area a very famous phrase of mine because all the papers all had to go up me over the years and I say I'm sorry it's a no go area and on the other end of the telephone they say haha you said and I say that's right it's a no go area and I don't grass on nobody neither the ladies in my life or people I've helped in my life or whatever but I'm quite prepared to talk about things as long as there's not grassing on anybody alright Mark what do you think we've seen at this point yeah look hindsight is interesting and so it's an interesting interview knowing what we now know people most likely knew at the time it's fact that there was a BBC cover up so if you're looking at this and seeing at one point one of your favourite entertainers don't don't feel you know you was one of my favourite impersonations to do as was Rolf Harris you know anybody who did impersonations would do a great Savile and a great Harris you know they were two stocks that you had to be able to do to be at any level of impersonation you know or impressionist so don't feel bad about it or duped because he had everybody and he was if anything a genius being able to dupe if it's the right word to use probably not a genius at hiding in plain sight Chase what do you go on this one I'm just going to go through a behaviour profile that I will leave what that means to Scott at the end so we have grandiose sense of self worth we've got manipulative deceptive behaviour we've got a lack of empathy and remorse we've got predatory behaviour we've got exploitative behaviour we have compulsive and I think pervasive patterns of ending here and disobeying laws and stuff like that and just a larger than life guy who duped a nation and was like Mark said hiding in plain sight I don't think he just immediately hid in plain sight he started and to Mark's point he was a working class person who worked his way up well there's a certain amount of you know local boy does well this is all archetypal you get an archetype wedged in your head you don't assume that archetype is also an ecti Christ you just don't so what he's done is simply wedged himself into real estate in everyone's head so you don't look you turn a blind eye even if he does something weird you're turning a blind eye to Mark's point eccentric eccentric actors we have a few of those in the US maybe not quite as eccentric as this guy or we just don't know about them but he's hiding in plain sight because you've turned a blind eye and you've put a costume on this guy to turn him into what you think he is Scott what do you think he's a great example of watching a psychopath at work and it's easy for me to say he's a psychopath because what he I don't know nobody knows because we didn't get a look at his brain but it sure appears to be from the if you went down the checklist which obviously chases did or part of it anyway he's got all the red flags go up to say this guy is most likely a psychopath I feel so weird saying that claiming the guy is when I don't know we don't know but outside if I had to put my money on it that's what I do if it was a bet I go okay Greg I bet you 40 bucks and I think I'd win the 40 bucks I would probably say I'll hold onto my money because he did some pretty odd things he did some weird stuff yeah he was pretty out there oh wait Mark let's see the imitation of Jimmy Savile no it'll never see the light of day again I'm afraid you sure your ass cheeks on television but not the imitation no more Savile no more Savile for the cameras you don't want to be associated with the camera I will but not for the not for the public not for the public anymore as is Ralph Harris it's sad but there we go well we have to end the show because so we can listen to that yes and I won't record it I'll tell you how it was guys alright thanks another good fellas we'll see you next time