You've done 12, and then you just moved the team? So moved. And oh, wait, does somebody need to report until Rose gets here? That's me. I'll never get a job.  Shoot, this pendant won't work, either. I can't. Do you have one? Oh, here's the set. Let me give you the things. OK, so Jordan moved. And somebody second? Seconded. OK, Jamie seconded. Any further discussion? All in favor, say aye. Aye. OK. And we are now going to move on to signing a contract with Central Vermont Humane Society for Boarding of Animals when necessary. OK, have folks had a chance to look at this contract? I do. OK, any remarks? It seems appropriate. Is it kind of the same from year to year always? Or is this a new thing? It's pretty standard. OK, so it's asked for a talented, authorized agent. Should I sign it? It's the same pricing as last year. OK, this does not yet have Erica Holmes' signature on it. I'll get that back from her. OK. And there's that. I'm not too impressed with it. Did you approve both sets of minutes beside visit also? Yes. OK, thank you. You need a motion to authorize us on that? I'll make a motion to authorize Gabrielle. I'll second it. So, yeah. Thank you.  OK. And so can you second it, Angela? Second. Thank you. And all in favor? Aye. Very good. OK, and the next item is assigning board orders, which I believe is in process. They're circulating, yeah? OK. So next up, we have public comment, which technically starts at 6.05. So, and it's up to 15 minutes. We'll be taken for public comment, and time will be divided so that everyone has equal time to speak. Are there any folks here for public comment? OK, hi. And sure, go for it. And they always state your name. Reed Sherrington. Oh, I think I should distribute to the board what I sent you with my email. Sure. As I just talked to you. Yeah. OK. Do you have copies? Yeah. And we also need a copy for the minute taker, please. Do you have an extra copy? Yeah. OK, great. This is about the bank out here. Just bugged me for a while. And just last couple of growing seasons, I've tried to keep it open with my gas-powered bladed trimmer. We're talking about right on the corner here? Right along the road on this side. OK. Everything else is beautiful. And Raul does a wonderful job. But he can't get onto that bank with any of this equipment. So I've been doing it, not this year, but the last couple of years. It's sort of a don't ask, don't tell, away. I'm 80 now. So I'm not going to be able to do this too much longer. I was hoping that Jamie and Ann could arrange with the road crew to use their mounted on hydraulic arm rotary mower on that and get at it from below. And according to Ann Raul's opinion, it should work just fine. Well, and for right now, that isn't serious. Just remember we have Don Hawkins reviewing it this season to try to put the boom mower back together and so that it is safe.  No, I would ask them to do that. I don't think a string trimmer is going to do it. Oh, no, they've got some pretty heavy duty. Oh. I mean, they wouldn't want to do an entire roadway with it. They would be very unhappy about that. They could probably do a bank. OK. But we do have backstair tomorrow. If this is done two or three times a year, I mean, your job isn't to make me happy, but I'd be happy. And I just think it's a nice view of the building from the road. And you don't really get that until you cross the brook because there's growth along the brook, which is good. So the town hall kind of bursts into view there. And I would hate to see that bank just grow up trees, which it will do if we don't keep after it. It'll take a while, but it won't. Yeah, nobody happens. Yeah. And the easiest way to maintain it is grass. And if you want grass, real grass, on bird oaks, you've got to mow it at least three times a summer. Yeah. And unfortunately, they really had some mowing done, but. No, I saw along the peak of a brook where they had been experimenting. Troy, you give it a go. Yes. But we think you have some powerfully pimming because they are doing the Long Room 14 tomorrow, so I'll ask them about this. I think that's doable. It's not a brave issue. Yeah. How many times a year do you do it? Once or twice. But I would do it more often if I wasn't so lazy. Well, thanks, Creed. OK. Anything else we need to know about those? I don't think so. I might tag quickly on that of public comment that I got from a resident today that's on the same topic, if that's OK. Somebody that's crazy.  And there's only two houses on it. And he mows the field and maintains the field on either side of the road. And he mows it at specific times to control invasives and encourage pollinated plants. And so he'd like to request that the town not mow the road sides of Sparrow Road. And he said in the past, the select board had had a very complicated form to make such requests and was just curious if we have a way that people are supposed to communicate those things to us. It's probably something that's going to take more discussion because I know historically it can be challenging for the crew to schedule when people here and there like different people want to vote or want to vote at this time or come down, but don't come then. It becomes very prohibitive when they have blocks of times when they're able to do things with Sparrow Road. I think it's safe to say they wouldn't touch it. But I piggyback me on that. I had a contact from Charlotte Bassett saying something about a that there's a thing where you can ask to maintain your own road, basically. But I don't know if that means you take complete responsibility, including winter maintenance. But it's probably going to be a larger discussion. Mowing in general, if people are no mow, I think this season we're going to be fine because we're going to be weak backing. So it's, you know, going to be wild. I think Sparrow Road's safe from the mower this year. But it seems like there might be two separate issues because this is the stretch that Reed's talking about sounds like it's part of the town hall property that adjoins the road that, you know, would fall under a kind of maintenance regimen that the town adopts relative to the town's property. But these other ones are kind of more, more relative to personal parcels and practices on the rights of way in different areas. So, you know, I think we could probably address them a little bit separately. I think Reed's topic is a little easier in some respects because that could just be a discussion about how to manage this particular parcel. But we may need to have a lengthier conversation about standard practices relative to... Agreed. Requests to deal with roadside mowing differently in different areas. I'm only aware of, you know, people wanting to perform the work themselves. I don't really know how that would necessarily apply for somebody requesting not to do the work. That could get kind of complicated relative to safety and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And would we not want Ed Roel to do the thing that Reed has been doing? When Ed Roel would do it, but he would be doing it as a road crew member, so it's still under the same umbrella. Even though he's under contract with the town? He's under contract as a road crew. I know it's complicated, but he's always been paid as a road crew member. He doesn't have the equipment, town doesn't have the equipment. Yeah, it's what he has like a rising, right, but he can't do it. But that's heavy duty, yeah. Okay, but it's uncomplicated. We can request it, or tell, or... I'll see him in the morning, because we do have like a right of way site of view issue with 314 and Max Grade that they're taking care of with E-trans tomorrow with the NLB record, so I can... Yeah. They can take care of Reed's thing. Does it need it now, Reed, or did you just... Well, that would be a second, but they can get to it in the next... No, that's why I'm asking if he did it like two weeks ago. They might not need to do it till the end of the summer. That's why I'm, you know, like, I mean, I guess anybody can look at it and tell, but I just have no idea. You haven't done it this year? Okay. All right. I'm sure I'm exceeding my allotted time, but I do have one other quick question if I'm allowed. Sure. Okay, I've just been reading in the minutes about power lines on Leonard Road, and I just want to confirm, I assume this is true, that the poles would not be in the traveled part of the right-of-way. They would be on the side of the edge of the right-of-way and the way they are on many roads. Is that correct? So the reason I ask that is that I think, we need to think in terms of, you know, maybe 200 years from now, that right-of-way might become a through-road, and we wouldn't want poles going down the middle of it. That's all. No, I think the poles are actually not on Leonard Road, because Leonard Road kind of goes up and his fur cut is currently below Leonard Road. Yeah. So I think it's going to be. So this wet request is actually only adjourned, it's going to be coming up, and you can look at the details when you get there. Okay, thank you. All right, and so, Furt, do you feel resolved enough about Anthony Nemethy's request that you can just get back to him and don't wait for the discussion, because it's complicated? Okay. Any other public comment before we move on? I just have one thing. Check. My name is Bill Davis. The light out here in the parking lot is on all the time. And if you look at both sides of this building, you can see that that side has bugs all over it. This side does not. So that side has to be clean, because the bugs out of it. What would you be interested in in making that light a motion-sensitive light as long as it comes on when people are here? I think- So I was already calling for Washington Electric. Oh, he has. We're working on it. Oh, good. Problem solved. That's clean here, so I see these things and I might get John wrong. So we are aware of the bugs. And I think John just set the porch lights so they would go off and not be on all night. So we're kind of working on it. And Bill, thank you for your email about this. Okay. Cool, that was easy. Let's see. So, any other public comment? All right, we'll move on to meeting our new CVRPC Executive Director, Christian Meyer. Hi. Hi, thank you. Christian Meyer, Central Vermont Regional Planning Commission in the position of our new all group down the road. It's been no call as well. But I'm not gonna introduce myself. I'll reintroduce some of the services that the Regional Planning Commission offers the community needs in our region. We're 23 municipalities, Washington County, plus several in Orange County. Our mission, I'll make sure I get it right, our mission is to assist the member municipalities in providing effective local government to work cooperatively with them to address regional issues. To me, what happens is we're kind of, we're a tool, we can pull out of the toolbox when you need us. And when we're done, we put us back into the lawn. You can add a little extra capacity when municipality or community needs it. But then we can disappear when we're done. Of course, we're never fully gone. We do become invested in the projects which makes us a better future partner. And to have another set of eyes that we can have for town. In addition to that, we kind of aggregate local issues to kind of make sure the state's aware of them. And similarly, work on implementation of state policies at the municipal level. So helping give guidance as new policies are effective. Some of the work we do is transportation, flood, water quality and flood storm water management, energy and climate, hazard mitigation, land use and municipal planning needs, regional planning, obviously, across municipal borders, economic development, under legislation and the technical assistance as needed. Some of the direct assistance we've offered municipalities both globally to the region, include support for developing municipal plans. We worked with Henry Reserve and Woodbury on their recent plan, which was recognized by the Vermont Planning Association. Educational programs, we recently held a Planning 101 course that was a technical attended, I imagine even by some Cal's Planning Commission. Local hazard mitigation plans, we can support that work or serve as your contractor. Obviously grant writing, we've helped a number of municipalities successfully achieve some local grants like municipal planning grant for planning issues. You may have your community, we can also serve as administers of those programs, working with your consultant. That's needed. We also don't have GIS services mapping that's often a popular request both from community members and SWAC boards. We can set up shared services. We're enabled under state statute to do things like shared planner, shared zoning administrator, something like that. We currently have no town stateness on that, but it's beginning to touch on across the state, so especially in smaller communities that we need to offer communities down the road. Specific projects we worked on here in Calis, North Calis Village Designation, helping with that, recently formatting zoning ordinances. We'll be working with Calis on where the administrator for the Colbert Project that here, design project on Pekingburg. Kendall Road. Kendall Road, over Pekingburg. Yeah. What else, yeah. Oh, yeah, so we're working with the post office on the stormwater management, the best management practice. Big project program that's coming along is the municipal energy resilience program to help make public buildings more energy efficient. Obviously Calis has some that are pretty good shape, but if it's a calendar log or something like that, there's opportunities there. If she hasn't, I'm sure you'll hear from the same lash or energy planner. Non-regulatory stormwater. We're already doing the work of the post office in East Calis, but there's other opportunities. And that is a strong focus on boss first mitigation for this, that program, but that can serve as a benefits. I think the last few things will be new FEMA maps coming out and for our, probably around 2025, we're already working looking at Calis zoning regulations to see how those can be updated to integrate new maps. And finally, the bridging culprit inventory. Calis is in need of a new one, and it's on our list for this summer. So hopefully we will have you a new bridging culprit inventory by the end of the year. Keep our insurance busy. I think you're doing some traffic studies for us too. We are doing some traffic studies for you as well. That's right. So thank you. I have a question. Is it time for questions? I have a question about shared services. So you mentioned planning. What else is envisioned in there? Well, it's wherever there's a need between two municipalities. So some of the examples we've seen through the state are like I said zoning administrators, assessors, shared assessors across multiple municipalities. The framework is the individual becomes employed through the RBC, but each municipality is kind of able to buy a section of their time. It's 15 hours, 20 hours. And once we get that tipping point of having enough municipalities interested, we could go forward with that. Do you have a fact sheet on that? I do not have a fact sheet on that. Is there any kind of like pre-set information that if you know a town wanted to wrap its head around how it might be? I can pull that information from other regions who've already gone down the street. So you do have CBRPC folks that are, or towns that are using it? No, okay. This hasn't been implemented in our region yet, but it is taken place in several other regions in Austin State. Okay, and you already have the capacity in place to like if Calis, East Montpelier, and Plainfield Marshfield come to you or something? We'd hide it for that position. Okay. Yeah. Got it. All right. Yeah, that's great. In general, we're here as ever. You have an idea. I'm not sure how to execute it. I can pull from either our community's experience or internally our experience. Okay, any other questions? Well, thank you very much. Excuse me, I may not say to the end. Well, if you are just staying up late. Okay, so the next item is a CB fiber update from David Healy. So David is not going to make it. He was exposed to COVID over the weekend, so he's having a quarantine. You've got his update which you can review and we'll simply reschedule his presentation maybe in two weeks or the next time you make, whenever we can fit on the agenda that he's available. But I do want to let you know that he has scheduled two workshops for callous residents on the startup of CB fiber. We'll be seeing David will be posting these to front porch forum. We'll be putting these around town and so forth. So Tuesday and Thursday, July 18th and 27th from my 37th here at the town hall. And he's just going to give people an overview about what CB fiber is, why you should subscribe, how you can connect, how much does it cost, and what do you get for that. So watch the information on that forthcoming and we'll reschedule it another night.  No, he'll post it to front porch forum. I'll get it posted around hard copies around town. Okay, and I'm just curious, does anybody have CB fiber yet? It's not live yet. Okay, that's what I thought. You also left some handouts here. Yeah, I did read it. Yeah, I just... Okay, thank you. All right, well thanks for that update Barbara. Okay, I guess we're on two road issues and we are ahead of schedule, which is amazing. So... Don't say it to them. What's that? Don't say it to them. Okay, I take it back. Or late, or late. Okay, so road issues. Let's see, well it says report from road crew or road commissioner. Are we expecting road crew? I wrote up a thing and sent it out this morning so I can read it to you what's been done. You wrote up a thing. You sent it to our select board emails. And it's also in your group. It's in that folder. And that is... You mean this is the Larry or information? George Rose Redway application. So I didn't get anything from you this morning. Okay, so it's in our... Can you take it from the select board administrator? It's the Larry or current remediation document. Oh, okay, I do have that. So they went out on the 14th and 15th. On the 14th they spread 30 hay bales, erosion mat on that section. That was kind of where the previous curb cut was kind of cut off and it became a steep bank. A hand-spread one bag of conservation seed, a lawn, Leonard Road, you know, the class four piece that goes up and then in the V section. The next day they did spread 84 pounds of three inch plant mix, rocks. And it's good because it rained really hard in the section. You know, Larry's curb cut that did not have it became very, very messy. So the rocks actually provided a good foundation and they sent pictures which I will probably send from my personal email to you to send because I'm not grooving with the outlook yet. But it looks good. The grass is growing. The, the bank is stable. I mean the rocks laid a really great foundation and the hope is, and that came into just under, and most of it was for the rocks, $3,890 between labor, use of the equipment and the materials that they used. The hope is to wait until after he gets all the large vehicles out of there to do anything more, but it is sufficient now that it shouldn't have any further damage and then we did put Leonard Road and George Road as it cursed out as part of the road grant segment that the state helped compensate us for the ditching and because it's part of the water management. So yeah, they're hoping to hold off until his major stuff is done so that they can actually bring the road back down to, because it got kind of wider obviously from the... So he will not be built yet? He, his basement is being put in in August. No, built. We could probably build him for this section certainly. Yeah, but it's not, it should be considered 100% done. There may need to be further touch-ups after... Yeah, it may just be less involved for all involved if he's built a few times rather than one. That makes sense. Was anybody able to do anything on the downhill side to stabilizing the material that was like pushed down the embankment? Or they're not there as any... Sometimes it's... Yeah, so there is sufficient vegetation that is where to capture where the water is that there is sufficient that it's going to capture anything that goes down before it gets to the water so they didn't do a self-fence. Okay. But they do go back like weekly and check and make sure that it's holding up but it looked really good and like I said I can forward those pictures around that way so you can see its current progress but it looks good. So, well that's encouraging. Yes it is and he's done very well with thought touching it. Okay. No longer trying to help. Okay. Are we... No, I was just saying thanks Ann. Are we ready to move on to the or application for a new curb cut? I have some questions about this. Do you guys need to take a vote on what to do next? And a couple of questions would be one, is Mr. Orr, has he received this? Does he know this is coming? I have not gone over that with him yet. Okay, so this is news to go. Yes and I can go over he wasn't there you know they did go by today to take pictures and he wasn't there but yeah probably we can reach out to Larry so he's not... It is not news to him that he is going to be billed for extensive work that had to be done by the town road crew. I'm sorry, is it in? It is not news to him that he was going to be billed. But there's figures in what I meant. So, I'm wondering if you guys need to take a vote on what the next action will be and before you've made that motion if you're going to would the town accept a payment plan for him? Is he expected to pay it in full within 10 days or 30 days or what would be the expectation? I think you guys need to discuss for a motion. What's our next meeting? July 10. That sounds about right. Yeah, I think it's July 10. I guess I would propose considering we want to be sensitive not to make any illusions that the work is final that we should probably have a conversation with Larry and whether or not he would have a preference to be billed incrementally or at the completion. We can certainly forward him a copy of work performs and maybe stop short of making that a bill until he's done. I don't know. I mean, once he starts incurring lots of building costs, doesn't that make it less likely that he would be able to pay this? I mean, is it customary to give the billy a choice of when they're billed? It can go either way. I mean, it... We could regroup and take this conversation at our next meeting and I can talk to him and bill it out because I agree it could be like an indefinite and it is a cost to the town and materials and things, so we do want to keep that. Sounds good. I'm okay with that. I'd say let's either way, let's plan on taking action at the next meeting. And you can do that so you can... Yeah, we can definitely share the costs to date and let him know that there's a plan to perform the rest of the work when activity is subsided and equipment is moved out to a certain extent. Either way, we can take action at the next meeting. Okay. All right. On to WAC application for placement of utility poles in the town right-of-way on George and Leonard roads. Both the Calis Road crew and Calis Tree Warden have reviewed the application and made comments. So a possible action is condition and sign permit allowing WAC to place poles in the right-of-way. Is that more current cut? Oh, no. We're still in the first one. Yeah. Okay. So the new curve cut application on Leonard Road the Calis Road crew has reviewed the application and the possible action will be to approve and sign the curve cut application. So this is a little different because as we all know he already did the work and then we instructed him to do to get approval. So there's no details about the curve cut on here. What are you looking at? I am looking at notice of approval to proceed to construct. That's the permit. You need to look at the application. That's the permit that you will sign for the project. Yeah. There's still not really a lot of information on it but do people feel ready to sign this thing? I feel like we did a site visit and most of us seem to agree it was actually a better current cut location than this one. I don't know. Does it have specifications about how you want it to be like besides a new way? All it says detail wise other than this map is 325 feet from corner of George Road. Has the proposed curve cut been clearly marked, staked and flagged? Yes, we've all seen it. Yes, we think it's better. It's just a matter of directions, restrictions and conditions no, it doesn't say anything. But is that something that we want to as far as clean up on the side hill so there's not the new curve cut is left tidy? Is it possible that perhaps we can go back with that and have the guys really specify again very clearly what the end curve cut should look like because I think they kind of approach it like it's already been done. But I know that they wanted to have the site cleaned up and yeah, that's fine. Is it most of that laid out in the original cut cut? Or the rest of the road work that the road cruise helping with? Except for they haven't been touching the steep side of the steep curve cut that is large, there's a lot of vegetation, so erosion is going to be but there was a fair amount of things cast off over there which aesthetically do you know, do you kind of impact? Yeah, I guess I would prefer that the road crew go for somebody or like John go over specifically to take a look at I mean I know that we're okay with the location but that's relative to scoping out the stabilization of the of the previous location and then the only other thing that is kind of a question for me is the location of the culvert that was That's going to need to be like replaced or pulled out and we'll need to that'll be in the town right of way so we need to specify in this curve cut you know, specifically whether or not we wanted Larry to replace that culvert with something more specific in size and material and I don't think that that was specifically noted so you know I think we can tentatively agree that the location is better but I think the road crew will have to go out and take a look at some of the other kind of tertiary conditions related to where that culvert is and have a conversation with Larry on whether or not they want us or the road crew to perform that installation or those modifications as included in the scope of work that they're doing otherwise he's going to have to do it and he'll have to do it to through satisfaction and we'll open that whole door again so it seems like at least one more conversation worth having with Larry about that and I would also ask the question was there a previous curve cut application? I don't think there was yes so you did a curve cut application when we went on that visit where they held it up and then had that that was where his original curve cut was so that's how he had access to land and below it's a logging landing site didn't that original curve cut already exist but you're saying he had a permit to do so he's been working on it for over a series of they're only good for a couple years or one year in the exact time frame it was in process for quite a long time but the most recent one did have where the original went up and down and that's where you cut the bank off and made it a straight shot so is this something I can give to Ann Tuland to pass to the road crew for them to fill or I guess you don't need the piece of paper I know but we should take a map and just because I think if we benefit Larry they have a very very specific we've talked about it a lot with this curve cut as far as what the end result should look like to that culvert because I don't think it fits under the I think it's outside of this segment but it's right at the edge of it is curve cut and it's definitely too short I mean that's one that he would replace with the one that's currently getting crushed in about 10 to 15 feet too short okay so this is the original do I give you the original or do you just we have it in the so yeah either that or you have it on email but you and the road crew got it on email about on June the 1st I believe so you can either rely on that or that's my only town office yeah we can use it you sure if you can't find it I'll send it to you again okay okay I apologize for that they probably were thinking like it's already been done so no problem that's great focusing on the other things okay so that we'll have to go on the next agenda for finalizing it or signing in so I think now we're on to the WAC application for polls on George Road let's see the application will involve cutting roughly 10 to 15 shade trees in the George Road right away and maybe 8 in the Leonard Road right away WAC is exempt from having to follow the removal process in the shade tree plan I recommend and this is Neil Maker our forester that the application be approved with the condition that WAC take care not to spread invasive honey suckles there are a number of honey suckles growing under the proposed line between the existing pole machinery should be kept away from these when possible and he says I would also encourage WAC to remove any larger ash trees in the right of way even if they don't need to be removed for wire clearance specifically there are three larger white ash joined at the base in the southern right of way which will pose a hazard to the lines and the road when emerald ash or kill them so let's see so what do we need to do for those possible action conditions and sign permit allowing WAC to place poles in the right of way so I think the conditions should be as the tree warden prescribed and let's see is everybody seeing the map of what they're talking about does everybody have the information they need yep alright so let's see Barbara where's the where's the thing to sign so the yellow piece of paper is what you saw okay so the select warden would like to make a motion to authorize Gabrielle to sign it I could tomorrow morning before I mail that back to WAC I can write in the I can add the attachment on nail makers conditions if you guys agree with those conditions people good with the tree warden how many poles does it say let's see in the right of way your sheet it would be on the yellow yeah yeah I don't I don't see where it says how many poles so yep okay are we ready to make a motion yeah I'll move to accept the WAC application relative to the conditions specified by the tree warden and I authorized Gabrielle to sign it all in favor okay and am I signing the thing that says permit holder yeah no permit holder I don't have a form in front of me okay oh yeah does it need three signatures if there's three lines it's asking for three okay sorry it's hard to read it while I'm talking dated act and both copies one's their copy you're ready there's not okay great thank you that's that one and let's see beaver control on Kent Hill Road we want to wait on this one since we've had to be here okay alright so let's talk about beaver control on Kent Hill Road beaver's busy it's created again by the substation entrance the town crew took it down about a week or four or five days ago and it's been rebuilt they've also plugged the culvert to feed that side of the road we've talked with the state beaver specialist and he doesn't think that a beaver baffle actually will work because of the level of the water it's too shallow so I'm not sure what the options are I would recommend that the road crew unplug the culvert at very least and what we do about the dam we can take it out again but within four or five days they'll rebuild the dam again so it's going to be a containment problem I spoke to that game ward yesterday I'm about to guess them correctly today about the ongoing issue with two when they go to do that large project they'll have to drain it even further which will negate the beaver's habitat but beavers are unable to be relocated because the state is beaver locked this is the same thing with bears like you can't take a beaver and put it in a new place and hope it's going to be fine so I think unfortunately pragmatically and I'll say that the beavers are not going to work well in their current situation they'll probably need to be removed in a humane fashion and that is what that game warden also said it's probably the best path so there is a trapping season but I don't know if there's a missus beaver that we can actually do to decide on the trapping season if you speak to the game warden he said yeah we can do what we need to do with the beavers and do the manor rights to do so Peter was out there today I'm plugging it again I remember him saying something about the season during the season but it didn't sound like it was it was a requirement just that maybe we could consider it although oh yeah let's say it would be preferred to have the beavers trap during the regulated trapping season so yeah it would be preferred but I don't think we can wait until October so no I think we should do what we need to do make sure the road doesn't deteriorate yes I've been given several suggestions I would just prefer whoever could do it in the humaneist quick kill fashion not to be crossed but so I have several things that I can we worked with a guy from Barry who was great I'll have to remember his name but I'll work on that what was his name? yes he is really good at some of the despawn failure but that's for today we can talk on the main reader but that's also where both sides are kind of getting and I would add that Ann Winchester spoke with the landowners and they are all in favor of doing what is necessary to keep the road in good condition ungray unhandled pilot around the state specialists said we could put up what's known as an exclusion fence on the side of the culvert so they don't block the culvert anymore so that would require some 4x4 6x6 wire fencing that would go around and be staked in so they couldn't get to the entrance of the culvert just taking the dam down is not going to stop them from plugging the culvert so that would actually work to prevent future culvert blocking again once we take the dam out again and see what the water levels are for the new beaver baffle he just said that they get used to figuring out where it's leaking and they'll figure out a way to deal with it because the water is such a hell of a could be a temporary fix for a period of time but elimination of the beavers is really the only solution okay is that it for a beaver control on Ken Hillard I think that is okay great so we're on to Callas Trails Committee I have a question so does a boat need to be taken or what actions happening or are you just giving instructions to Toby and Ann I think I don't think we need to vote and then our right of way and it's okay I just wanted to be clear it's just maybe people aren't comfortable so it's good to have a conversation about it and I guess Ann Winchester if you are in touch with the landowner could you maybe circle back with them that we had this conversation and that the next step is likely trapping okay okay thank you can I ask a Toby question I guess Ann sounds like beaver activity along the road sides is going to be kind of a recurring issue they seem to be fairly active this year and multiplying which I am not opposed to but the the state representative was Tyler yeah Tyler had mentioned two outside resources the kind of consults for other stuff I'm just wondering if you thought it would be worthwhile maybe bring somebody in I can contact both and just see if they have another solution I think essentially I've done a lot of research over the years yeah so essentially putting up exclusion fencing or beaver baffles usually can work it just depends on the location itself and right now the beaver baffles doesn't appear to be an answer to the dam side yeah I was just thinking more comprehensively whether it would be worth bringing somebody in to just talk about whatever new techniques there are just in general to kind of equip us equip us with other options I wouldn't build so far as to say develop a beaver policy but I think it sounds like the beaver baffles have been evolving a little bit and if you think it would be worthwhile maybe bring somebody just to look more comprehensively at the issues just so we have more solutions in our quiver I guess but if you don't think that that's necessary I'll reach out because I've done some research most of the other solutions are very similar to what we've got essentially putting all of them in the end that they can't figure out but they can't figure it out and they push them to a pretty smart that's the problem they're not smarter than they are yet okay thanks and as you say there are a couple of towns in the month that do have a beaver policy essentially it's just a statement saying that if we have nuisance beavers on the infrastructure those are the steps that we take as a community so that it becomes a standardized approach that'd be good to take a look at alright callous trails committee we have is tom blotchley hi tom he will give an overview of the trails committee work and then I think we have some possible appointments do you want me to stand up here no I'm tom blotchley I'm chair of trails committee I took over the chairmanship from re-charington a few years back it was long time chair we're a 10 member committee appointed by the select board and we administer about 17 miles of trails in the town which includes quite an extensive network of trails on the western side of town which are long standing over in robinson hill and in virons and then we have a couple of other big networks on the east side of town one off of max gray road and another one in the northeast corner of the town and a few other smaller trails in town and we're always looking for new ones so we're actively you know seeking out landowners who would like to dedicate their their land to these trails I think we have a pretty good relationship with all landowners I think there's about 16 landowners in total and what we do is it's pretty gets completely driven by the landowners whatever they want to do we do in terms of where the trails are located how they're maintained what kind of use they get and we work with them if there's any problems that develop every year we have a landowner permission form for them to sign it's not really a legal contract so much as just a recognition of what the relationship is like they're in the capers seat entirely we give them every right to back out of the deal at any time for any reason for no reason at all so far nobody's backed out while I've been chair but you know we're really trying to get the talent to just accept these trails and that it's a great use of people's land to give back something to the community there's no financial remuneration but we find that the landowners seem to really appreciate opening up their lands for this purpose and I have some maps of our trails to hand out if you'd like to see those we have a mapping subcommittee which consists of myself and and Walter who is here and he's been the primary map maker he said put all of these maps into consistent format and we think are easy to read and easy to use and I have them all here and I think there's one folder curve trail network so okay I want one of each those if you wish and that's pretty much it do you have a budget we do where does it come from where does it come from okay good question one of those little square funds in the town it comes from a square fund it's a part of a general fund valued on a town media year do you know what is it this year oh we we don't have a budget amount each year more like total available funds like 3,500 yeah so that's about typical yeah page 35 okay anyway 3,540 dollars that sounds about right yeah we use very little of it to be honest so it mostly carries over it mostly carries over it mostly carries over I can't think of any major expenses recently you know every now and then I dip into it and pay for blazes or paint the blazes and screws screws about but very little and the trails are I mean most of the trails are really maintained by the owners and they like to do that that's that's part of what they like about the trails is being able to maintain it themselves so every now and then I need a work party I'll put it out and move the human cells and some blow downs or do some clipping and brushing and stuff like that but mostly the landlords take care of themselves and it works pretty well what about e-bikes what about what? e-bikes good question I don't know if we have to deal with that yet but you know that is probably one of the major issues we get involved in is what kinds of use can these trails be put to and we leave it up to the landowner again we put them in the you know catford seat whatever they want some landowners are very clear they just want foot traffic something are okay with mountain bikes skiing some skiing and stuff like that some people don't like horseback riding some people do you know depends on the trail and their capacity of the trails so we try to address that with the signage and also on the wetland on the town's website which has in addition to these maps trails description trail descriptions of all the trails generally would be they're on the website and on there also we list the kinds of uses that the trails they're on the town website yeah well they're on if you go to the town website there's a link to the trails from the main website and are you fully I mean I know we're going to appoint patrick but are you you're full up with members you're all good that's popular so right we had Mike Fullerton retire this year he was a longstanding member of the committee and we needed to find a replacement and patrick showed up and we met with him at our last meeting and we think he'd be a great addition to the committee there are two other openings that the members want to be reappointed to another three-year term that's Denise Wilder and Tony Cating I am neighbors with the Catings so they're in callous not Worcester they live I think they live in Worcester but they have property in both towns and they claim residence in Worcester because they have two houses and the two houses at least one of them yeah she's actually a resident in Worcester but she's on our trails never been an issue she's a great addition to the committee yeah she's great I see her on our trails all the time yeah she's our secretary really she's very active okay but like residency is not required what? maybe don't ask don't tell okay sorry yeah any questions just a big thanks to you all the trails are wonderful Calla says incredible thank you our trail network and if people haven't gone hiking or biking or exploring on them you should yeah there's some news to me in this stack of maps you gave out thanks for bringing maps by the way there some have never been to the Bliss Pond town forest yeah I don't think I haven't been a broad view yeah um it's a bit of a hybrid thing we certainly help out and um if there's any maintenance one thing I'd like to throw in here if I may is that uh Eastmont Puyo here has a a different type of trail system and they've raised some serious money and they actually own trail better ways I don't know in every instance but a lot of them that's something that the callous trails committee sort of thought in the future be something to pursue seriously but we're talking a different kind of well just people aren't in general aren't going to be donating to trail estates one landowner did donate one to the Rwanda Land Trust to be we have the privilege the callous trails committee has a privilege of administering it is that long better figured I didn't know it but as you said it was sounds familiar they apparently didn't bring it up at the closing so what are the practical ramifications of that for like a landowner well there is basically unless there's malfeasance on the part of the trails committee or whoever is administering trail riding way the landowner has given up the rights the right to call it the rights to use the land giving up land use for that particular easement I would imagine right it was possibly aspire to but that would have to be anything like that would have to be accepted by the slide board yeah and accepted by the landowner it's always a little dance between the landowners and the committee because we would like to see a lot of use in these trails but we also respect the landowners primarily and we're doing this I feel primarily for that and for their whatever they want I don't know if this is the proper time to bring this up but the chape in town of forest is something that's been on my mind for years and there was a concerted effort a few years ago to try to develop a trail system and the select board went out and a site visit, Alfie went out there and checked out the access the momentum was really building for this and I went out and surveyed a whole trail out there it's an incredible piece of land it's never been out there very unique and I don't know it's quite beautiful there was some landowners there were some landowners who had some concerns but I don't think they were concerned and anyway it's interesting to revisit that sometime I took Eric Sorenson out there he did have some concerns about some of the rare plants that are in there but he didn't say it was an insurmountable problem it was just a question of working with using best practices to really make sure that we didn't damage these where I think there's some firms where is it where is the Chapin Town Forest so the Chapin Town Forest a lot of people know about it it's off of Chapin Road which runs off of Lighting Ridge Road and so this is another thing is that the Chapin Road actually runs all the way down to Peek and Brook Road half of it is a class 3 road and there's a lot of houses along that part and then half of it is a class 4 road which has some washouts in it that are pretty severe I mean my larger dream is of having a trail along the class 4 portion of Chapin Road and at the bottom Peek and Brook is already a really nice little turn off that you can use as an access and then from there you could also access a loop trail through the Chapin Town Forest it's all by the town so it really has a lot of potential to get developed but it feels like the momentum was there and then it just kind of stopped and I think just my own little pet project that would love to see the conversation get started didn't the town a parking lot in there last year? um they designated a spot and we figured we could get 3 or 4 cars in there comfortably so I don't know if they did any actual work up there but there was certainly talk about it with the Road Commissioner it felt like everybody was on board did it really get approved? it might that actual formal approval from the I kind of think it did anyway just my little thing I'd love to see that could I throw out a consideration maybe for the committee I think a interim step of maybe putting together a usage and maintenance policy for the trail system that just kind of qualifies that this is a resource very much kind of like how it's positions on the town website as a community resource at the generosity of private owners but maybe gets a little more detailed about what usage and for maintenance and kind of bring that back I think that would be kind of a nice progression of the conversation and kind of get us a little bit closer to organizing thoughts around a formal trail system proposal it doesn't seem like it hurts generally to have those things kind of qualified in somewhere certainly if there's any any issue or grievance at least there's something there that says this is what the town and the land owner's expectations are for usage but also I think can be beneficial for conversations with Eric where we say this is what we think these trails should be used or how they should be used for what usage is the head of the conversation a little bit with defining whether e-bikes are acceptable it starts as I think as a nice incremental step toward defining what that could be are you saying for the whole trail network or I think so I think for the whole trail network I think it's great that the individual trails have very specific usages that are for the time being relative to the interests of the land owners and what they're comfortable with I'm not proposing that that should change but something that more broadly defines where people can find that information and that there are differences but I think that could also help in re-engaging the conversation about the Chapin Town Forest there is some material on the website that we might use as sort of a starting place for that but I'd be happy to work with the board to beef that up and be more specific about what we're doing what are those well thank you I think it's awesome work so thank you we enjoyed it just one more thing before we close on this one I don't think we have any trails that are on Class 4 roads on travel roads and one of the reasons for that is that we require the approval of the land owners even on a Class 4 road and we've made a couple of attempts and turned down just because it's a Class 4 road we have a right to be there we don't sponsor trails unless we have a consent of a body land owners there was a lot of fear about trails going where they weren't wanted and that would be true if it was a legal trail as well because it could be integrated into a trail the town doesn't have any legal trails but if it did you could have the same problem that could be an impediment but it would still be great to get the conversation going on okay so I think I'm looking for a motion to appoint Patrick O'Donnell to a three year term expiring 2026 and can we do the reappointment in the same motion of Tony Gating and Denise Wilder so moved Tony Gating Tony Gating and Denise Wilder thank you okay it's been moved and seconded any further discussion all in favor alright that one and thank you Patrick okay thank you very much declaration of inclusion Steve Owens hi come on up or I'll be there whatever you want I was a little principal I worked with some several schools for several years and such I read Martin Chronicle and I had a debate in Derby on the front page of the Chronicle about something called what it was it looked like a worthy thing and I looked at the map and I discovered that Count of Calis hasn't adopted the declaration of inclusion and it struck me perhaps the reason for that might simply be that nobody asked and so I brought it to Jamie's attention and she put it on to the the agenda here and I guess I'm here simply to initiate the process to ask I'll say that 112 municipalities have signed on to this representing nearly two thirds of the population state right now Calis is the only one of the five towns in the U32 school district which has not yet adopted the declaration so this is the declaration and its entirety is on there and whoever prepared the agenda kind of inserted the Calis how many until the declaration I guess I further say that the minor read on it as a former school administrator is that once adopted it doesn't obligate us to implementation steps that are suggested on the website of the U32 to separate action if the board itself shows okay have folks had a chance to read the declaration does anybody have any I guess as a mother of non-white children nobody to adopt this we would have to do the works we're definitely not there you know are we going to change how we approach things are we going to is everyone going to be literally treated equally when we say everyone's welcome to live here that doesn't just mean any Calis village you know what I mean are we going to promote well I mean have the other four towns changed how they do everything I don't know I just I struggle with lip service and we're going to look we sign this declaration to continue on this day away we always have I grew up a mom player it's the most class place I've ever known so I just it's a it's a stickler with me so I'm not adverse to it I just I don't I don't want to be that place that's like we're doing it and then we totally don't do it but we trotted about that we do it we don't yeah I mean I guess that's why it's very carefully worded as a declaration as opposed to a series of actions and I don't mean that in a demeaning way go Steve can I ask Steve can I hear you saying that this website that's on the agenda we can go to that and look at implementation steps yeah there's there suggestions for implementation you know and I agree you know without actions you know it is just lip service but it's the first step one of the things that occurred to me would be that if the town say adopted a regulation of some sort that was going to be a barrier to people participating in the community this would provide a lens to critique that action prior to taking it so as I said there's no obligation in adopting us to do any of the steps that are suggested that would be a matter of separate action for the select board what are some of the steps to the folks who have looked at the website oh for example it could be anything from putting a framed copy of it in the town office all the way to having you know DEI trainings for your municipal workforce, your police and so on so it's a whole range from very easy to implement, low hanging fruit all the way to things that would be more complicated and their expense but on the other hand also might move from needle and they have like Montpelier has gone into the changes so that they actively try to recruit people from different backgrounds whether people from lower social economic status, people with disabilities people from other minority groups that might not traditionally participate in committees because you know typically it's certain people from a certain particular group and I've actually gone as far as creating like stipends to so people have to get childcare or whatever so they're trying to make it more accessible so people can participate there's things like that but sometimes we create a diversity, equity and inclusion committee and that committee would sort of be tasked at looking at various actions the select board takes or the adoption of new zoning regulations or other town policies to really look at and make sure that they don't have unintended adverse effects on certain populations certain populations that don't live in the town but might move to the town or certain populations that are in the town I think both, both either or so what are people thinking about this do we need more time to think about it do we want to look at the steps and see what steps are feasible versus just doing hello hanging crew to hanging it in the town hall I would be in strong favor of adopting it and then keeping the conversation going at future meetings and sort of working through together over time how we can implement different pieces of it but I think passing it tonight would be a good first step to get the ball rolling Is that a motion too? Are you guys ready to move on the motion? Yeah I'm going to have to pose to it I just don't want to be that white person No I don't want to be that person but I think this is a really important conversation to be had within the community and I do think that adopting the declaration is an important first step some mindful conversation I think has to be had around the next steps particularly when you talk about creating committees on kind of both sides of the coin but it's the first step and I'd be really interested to see what that conversation goes so I would make a motion that the town adopts the declaration of inclusion as presented and would include in that that as a first step we should have that declaration printed and displayed in the town office Printed and displayed? Yeah Second Okay so Jamie second any further discussion All in favor? Aye Thank you for bringing up the distinction between having a declaration and actually doing something about it Do you want to hold the affirmative? Yes Okay We're done Not so bad on this schedule Thank you for bringing me in Steve Do you sell our nominee? Yeah I did bargain on it But I appreciate your points I might just add one thing In my experience as an illustrator a lot of our diversity in the state is invisible and marginalized people suffered enormously Those people came through my office doors all the time and so starting was a starting place Yup It was really well taken If we had a DEI committee of some sort would you be interested in participating? Looks like I just volunteered Okay Noted All right Per's phone raft The town auditor, the town auditor or the treasurer? Auditor Audit Leon Governor The금 him Barbara, do you know why it would make sense to just use the existence for the committee? I guess they don't have a separate account. They have a separate account that they use as their operating fund but when when Sandra was asked can we just do it this way she said let me check with the auditor and she and she did and he did that basically said definitely open up a separate account for a go fund fee. And would we lose that account after the raft is purchased? I don't really know. I just know that that say when Sandra was asked about this she wanted to get the invite from the auditor and I do know that that's what he said. But what was reasoning in this I couldn't tell you down the line for this. I make a motion to authorize Sandra to open a separate banking account for the swimming program specifically for the purpose of receiving go fund me fate go fund me funds or other private funds raised relative to replacing the raft. And to close it if she sees fit after it's served its purpose close the account in the event it's served its purpose and should be closed. Jamie seconded any further discussion? Okay all in favor say aye. That's that one. So the townwide public vote on 2023 proposed zoning amendments. On June 12 we talked about tentative we approved tentative dates. It turns out those dates were not great and instead we're proposing August or we can propose August 1st or there are multiple dates we want to propose or just. We're trying to proceed for August 1st. Okay. So so the motion would be to approve August 1st as a date for the vote and sign the warning. Do we need a vote to yeah we need to rescind okay so the motion is to would be to rescind the June 12th vote on those other dates and approve a new date for August 1st and sign the warning. And so I'll just add that if you guys do that tonight and you sign the warning then there's a board of civil authority meeting tomorrow night for them to also approve this date. If for any reason they walk at what you guys approved tonight we'll have to start all over again. So come to the BCA tomorrow night everybody vote for this. And that is available as a Zoom meeting right. That's a hybrid. So if it only takes 5 minutes. Come to the town office not here or be a Zoom. Nelson down the Zoom link again tomorrow morning. But we can't do it in person. We could come in person. Yeah. To the town office. Okay. Yes. It's at 6. Yes, but there's emergency meeting at 7. Okay. Got it. We're the other emergency meeting. The emergency management meeting. That's on Thursday where we have this special guest that their regular scheduled meeting is Tuesday. Oh, okay. So I do want to make sure that all of you did really read that warning. The slide board owns the warning. So I'm just going to be sure if I've read it, we're good with that before you sign it. 8 a.m. and 7 p.m. And how do people get a ballot if they don't want to wait until August 1st? We will not be mailing ballots to everybody. And so we will post every week to drop court form with instructions of either a call or email the town office to request a ballot to be mailed to you in advance or show up at the polls on August 1st. Okay. There's one little extra underscore in the text of it, but I don't think that needs to be corrected. Okay. Just if there's an underscore. Yeah, it's just a little Yeah. Okay. All right. Anybody making that motion? The one that I said before. Okay. Is there a second? Yes, I will second it. All of step two was going to make it. Now I put your name on it. Oh, the motion was to rescind the June 12th vote and approve August 1st as the new date and to sign the warning. Yes. And it's been moved and seconded further discussion. All in favor say aye. Aye. Okay. May I have one more thing? Yes. That I learned just today. I checked in with the Secretary of State's Elections Division office to see what information we have to submit to them around this public vote. And the answer is nothing. But in my few email exchanges with the Director of Elections, he informed me that this will require another public hearing. And I said, even though the Planning Commission held a public hearing on May the 2nd and the Select Board held a public hearing on June the 12th. And he said, yes, once you've declared the elections, there are all the elections, public vote, it now requires another public hearing. So we just be expecting that that will be forthcoming. I'm sure there's rules about when that has to be. I think it has to be within 10 days of the election or something. I've got it at the town office. I don't have all the details here. There must be one 20 days before the election. I'm not positive. But we'll follow all the guidelines and do it legally. It's funny that I wonder if they realize that that's an incentive to actually not put it to a vote. You know what I mean? It's a disincentive because it's just too much work. I'm just looking at the calendar in August 1st is only five weeks away. Should we try to find a date tonight? Does that need a... Well, it can be before a Select Board meeting. You've probably got two dates in July already that would both be acceptable. July 26th. But I want to double check and see if the 26th... I think that works, but I'll have to check a little to see if that works. It's the 24th. All right. Okay. So it'll likely be before the Select Board on the 10th or 24th. We'll know by the end of this week. So, Glister salary. The previous Select Board increased the wages allocated for Glisters from 8,000 in FY23 to 12,000 FY24 in order to increase the hourly rate. So a possible action. And I guess the thing is that there is not necessarily an official record that they approved it. We couldn't find it. Okay. And their discussion with them was that it would go from $20 an hour to $22 an hour. Okay. And so that $12,000 is per Lister or total? That's a total. Okay. All right. Does anybody want to make a motion to increase the hourly pay rate for Listers effective July 1, 2023? Does anybody else want to offer any commentary on this? I'm the one that brought it up because my husband's a Lister. I mean, that's what's written in the town report that was approved. Right. I didn't think it needed to be voted on, but Sandra said yes. Sandra, the treasurer has asked that this new select board please vote on it. I mean, you'll see the $12,000. I don't think it specifically said $22 an hour. No, it doesn't. But I know from Jen that that was the reasoning. That's what she gave to the old select board. The one Senate approved a bill that Listers all need specific certification and just being an elected Lister doesn't make you a Lister. State came right out and said it. That you have to have a certificate that shows that you've taken so much coursework each year. So if nothing else, this bumping up the Lister pay, a lot of that money is going to go to attending training. Unless the Listers put it. I'm going to tell them what the town paid for that training. Well, that's what this is. I guess it depends what plot you're pulling the money out of. But it's more hours for the Listers. But it's also more expensive for the town. We're basically doing the state's work for them. And they're watching over our shoulders. But does the town want the state to do that work for the town? Just doing a little devil's advocate thing here. Do most towns want the state to take over? No. The chatter that you see on the Vermont Association of Listers and Assessors, it almost sounds like there's going to be a mass resignation of Listers across the state once this gets going. And at that point, then, towns are going to have full-time Assessors and no longer elected Listers. Maybe that's where the RPC is planning on starting to operate. I mean, it's going to happen. The Listers have been around since the time when they counted the sheep and horses and cows in those days long gone. What's the deadline for the Listers' game after this? They gave us three years, actually. So it's not like set on a risk, but it's a requirement. Okay, so, I'm sorry. Jamie, did you move that? I don't think I did. Okay, I'm sorry. I'll make a motion that we increase wages allocated for Listers from 8,000 to 12,000 in FY24. Or could you do it by the hourly pay? In order to increase the hourly rate to $22 an hour. Effective July 1, 2023. Okay, so to increase the hourly pay rate to $22 an hour? Yep. Beginning July 1. Yep. Is there a second? Second. Okay. Further discussion? All right. All in favor? Say aye. Aye. Aye. Okay. Discussion about personnel structure, Donna. So I will talk about the Treasurer Hiring Committee, and then I'll go over some ideas about, John's going to put something up there. Okay. So the Treasurer Hiring Committee met last week, and it's really great having two committee members that have actually done a lot of hiring, advertising, and that's Mary Ann Miller for the screen. We're taking minutes. I think maybe Judy asked you to, did she ask you to put a minute to this committee? No. Yeah, she said them to me. Okay. I have to make a page for it. Okay, don't worry about it. I saw my list for this week. So we are taking minutes, and I can e-mail those to you if you want, and eventually they'll be on the website. So Mary Ann Miller had some changes to the job description, which I am going to input. And then maybe you all want to see it again. You can see it more on this, right? Yeah, we saw it. Yeah. And then the committee talked about the need for references, background checks, credit check, social media check, and criminal background check. It was noted that this should be done only in the final stage for strong candidates, and it should be done actively, not just picking and choosing. Is that something that gets done for all town staff? You know that, and we did talk about that. But, I mean, that's another issue is that there is, our personnel policy is completely out of date. But maybe we can start that with this position. Especially with the treasure, I think you really need to have, you know, some of this background check down. Yeah, we talked about the general updating of the fiscal and personnel policies was needed in order to correspond to the job descriptions for employees. But that process would not slow down hiring the treasure. So then we worked on the ad, and we're going to continue to work on that as the next meeting, which is on Thursday. And we talked about where we would advertise this position. And we're going to start by putting it on Indeed. And then both Mary Ann and Louis said, the best results they've ever gotten is word of mouth and reaching out personally to potential candidates. And they also talked about using LinkedIn. They talked about not using seven days because of the expense. Not using what? Seven days because of the expense. Probably assuming it can also just be posted as a regular select board, front porch forum. Right, and we also talked about reaching out, you know, posting to professional organizations, the Vermont Municipal Treasure Association, and so we're working on the advertisement. And the goal of running it after July 4th. So, I mean, we have not even settled on the salary, but it's a feeling that we need to move this forward. And we could start the advertising process because it's always going to be up to salary. So, I have listed salary from the week's compensation. And Mary Ann this week is going to reach out to some other companies that aren't usually related in relation to, you know, one of the salaries for traders in the general marketplace. So, that's something we're going to continue to work on, even when we advertise it. But if you want us to wait, I think we need on the 10th. And maybe on the 10th we want to look at the ad and the job description before we jump into actually advertising. What do people think? Do we need to, I mean, can we do that just via email and comment if we think there are changes that need to be made? Or if we can at least see it before, because I have no doubt it's more comprehensive and accurate depiction of what we need in a treasurer than perhaps what was run previously. So, I know in the past that some job expectations were kind of strange or unusual and impractical and we didn't get a lot of people applying for them. So, I'm assuming you have worked through those things. I would still love to see them. I figured as such. But I would still be nice just for... I'll just send you the job description after the changes that we talked about in our last meeting. Because that, you know, just obviously when we send it out to that it's strong so we get good candidates and then that moves us forward. The other thing we talked about was that the remote work option should be advertised as a benefit and emphasized because people are so used to now being able to work in this part time remote working. Do you think they'll be able to determine the salary by that Thursday's meeting? Probably not. And I will see what kind of research... because it's... let me at the end and look at the compensation survey and we won't need the sales amount. I'm probably just not interested. So, are you thinking that you would not publish a salary and then add it would be like maybe us... you'd say something like the salary commensurate with experience or something like that? That's what's in the album now. So, because I would imagine we would have to approve a salary but it just sounds like we don't need to do that before an ad. So, I mean, I don't know... I don't know that you'd lose much by not having an ad around the week of July 4th just because, you know... What do you think about after... that was just kind of an after-July 4th. Just to have a goal so it didn't flu. I'm just thinking about the July 10th select board meaning I'm not sure it has to come back to the select board. I don't feel strongly either way about it but if it did, I just feel like July 10th wouldn't be like burdensome to week until after July 10th but I'm also not thinking you have to so I'm not clear on it. We can also update the job description as we go along. We could advertise and then still... That's true. I think it'd be interesting to put the ad out on July 5th or something and then when we're talking about it on the 10th it would give us a little information if there's been any assignments or if you've had a few... Summer may not be a great time either. Yeah, except that every time you advertise it's costing money so it'd be better to be ready and also I'm just concerned about advertising without knowing the salary because as soon as people start replying that's going to be the first thing they want to know and if we don't have an answer it's going to look like we don't know what we're doing. How do we know the answer? Well there's amounts in the budget. Oh yeah, there's tons of money there for that and another position if you had a better ad position. Okay, let's see. I think you're saying you do want us to go ahead and I'm going to send you the ad and the job description either as a courtesy or whether you can make changes but if you do want us to go ahead and start advertising Do you think we'll be ready to decide a salary on the 10th? Because I wouldn't want to put to Barbara's point I wouldn't want to put an ad out if we might be three weeks away from deciding a salary because we might lose people. Well why don't I talk to the committee members and just say when we do a fair study and the attempt is 20 days a week do you still have research? Yeah, and I do I actually in a completely different context I'm making a choice to not advertise something that I need to advertise for my job the week of July 4th and I'm waiting until the following week to put that out so that's kind of why I was thinking about the significance of that date and the people not paying attention to work things that week as much If the impetus is to actually talk to people and reach out Right, that's not advertising Yeah And actually be talking to people and reaching out to contact because you're more active need a figure because you're talking to that person So it kind of sounds like maybe it would be best to come back to discuss with July 10th Yeah I'd say I'd prefer to see everything circulated if the committee comes back with a number in the coming week to have that circulated to the select board will refrain from any chatter other than direct feedback if there are any decisions or changes or suggestions but plan on posting and add short of any changes the Tuesday after the next meeting Yeah, I guess the other thing would be sensitive I guess if there is momentum gained in the interim period to conversations I guess this board's ability to engage or the committee's ability to engage in those conversations through the holiday week too So it just seems like it would be better to hold off on advertising until we're better prepared to take any action on potential momentum Sure Okay And I like the suggestion of the background checking and due diligence it seems kind of commonsensical It should be reasonable to know anything about some of the investment that's happened Yeah, if you read BT Digger you know that it's good to dot those i's and cross those t's Okay, so on to the next topic I'm just going to read this for efficiency sake So back in March an infant or working group was formed for the initial statement that was put together by in Rochester, Jane Warby in the south and the purpose of the group was to look at how panelists might reconfigure personnel and finance systems for more efficient operation and to better respond to the increasing complex demands on the select board, town employees and volunteers I'll give this to you Thanks That's what we call it So the group was tasked to provide us the initial presentation An important goal of this group was to make it possible for a number of people to serve on the select board or one of the town's other committees or commissions So one of the paragraphs in the initial statement I'm going to read to you that says, younger residents including those new to town are often struggling to meet the demands of raising families and busy careers and have all time to offer but they have a large stake in this community These are just the people who should be actively involved in making decisions about their growth and management for their needs and future Assistant John You can go to the next slide So what I realized is that unless people are really actively involved in town, they don't really know how it's organized because our current town organization I've got hard copies here if anyone has a hard copy I do Of course I do have this for you too I like it Thanks now I do as well You've got that on email this afternoon Thank you What this shows is the town clerk is elected and the town clerk chooses to assist the town clerk but it shows all the people in positions that we've been selected and you know the treasurer, the road commissioner the operations manager all of the commissions and committees and then all that lists on the right of people who are appointed the animal control officer the zoning administrator and then down the left there are the voting positions and this is like we're just really having a control over but I think it gives you an idea of the responsibility of the select board and all the people and all the positions that report to the select board The trustees of public funds I'm sorry I'm just realizing that the endowment account and I think that's actually they're available to the options about ever monitoring things in the town so if you look at these options one of the couple things to keep in mind are how many hours does the select board expect people to work is it two hours a week or 40 hours a week and that is up to the select board and what we have 40 hours a week in the personnel policy but the office staff is necessarily working there working there and then the other thing to keep in mind is to work from unionizing that some positions may be determined by new rules and then the other thing to think about are the positions elected are appointed so this is a town manager organization and it's defined in statute and the select board would hire the town manager and this is the city and towns summation of the statute which I'll rate you and the town manager is a statutory position in which the state vests with the manager much of the day to day managerial authority of the town which is normally reserved for the select board and the personnel hiring maintenance the town manager is actually a real commissioner and this leaves the select board able to focus on policy decisions adopting policies and ordinances preparing towns and holding periods on zoning the town plan updates on other things and towns that want to relinquish control of the day-to-day operations generally prefer to use the town manager for the government and so so you can see that this is an area that commissions and committees report the select board town clerk is still independent and eventually is elected but many of these positions report to the town manager and in this example the road foreman did I talk to Toby about this the road foreman the idea was that the road foreman would do a lot of paperwork with the support of the town manager and the direct road crew and especially during the summer months when there's all these projects going on that the road crew would be doing paperwork for that and with that in the winter the road foreman could also help apply the roads so this is an area there's no longer operations manager there's no longer the seasonal road crew do you have information on how many towns have a town manager and how big those towns are I can get that work, I have it's in that survey that I I want to do some update on the Xerox certain pages from the compensation survey I can get that I've proposed an edit to page one is one of the things that we formed is an assistant to the select board so that's a body of work that is currently being performed um I did this as without the temporary people you were appointed select board administrator administrator this is sort of historical that's why I do not approve the select board administrator it says current town organization current as in current you had to bring the select board and some changes have to be made to accommodate I can add that on here too I think it's probably helpful to add it to the current town organization because if the goal is to um you know, if our chair and when Chester is on the phone for folks in the room if she feels that staff is bringing it to the public and talking about the future of Calis-Town government and you know, helping the public understand what we think our staffing needs are and kind of having a conversation about it in that way it's just good to represent that there's actually three part-time municipal assistant type jobs that need to be done so I also have a list of each of these scenarios because it's almost all the same because I think that's going to be one of the public's concern is are you adding more positions okay so I'll add that so as the town manager generally uh, approving applications like right of ways and uh, curb cuts and other other kind of special applications that are going directly to the to the select board I'm not sure it's really detailed in the statute which I'm probably going to bring with me but it's available on the broadleafs of cities in town if I understand it was a very concrete it's really specific disposition and it says some of the things the town manager can't do and they have it all much in I'm just going to bring it with me why don't we move on to the next slide the town administrator and so the town administrator is hired by the select board and uh, this is from the homologation the town administrator holds whatever administrative authority the select board would like to delegate to that position through a job description generally a town administrator has less authority than a town manager and the secretary of state's office says hired by the select board sometimes called the administrative assistant to the select board assists the select board in managing the business of the town the town administrator has no independent statutory authority like the manager does and the scope of duty is determined by the select board and then this option here on page only page please I put in a part time assistant to the town administrator uh, because you start looking at a town administrator job description the point of the lines the only difference I saw between page two and page three was the word miscellaneous right here a town manager it looks like town administrator is the exact duplicate except right here you have the word miscellaneous employment that was the only difference I saw between the two oh that's just just a question the appointed positions in both cases the appointed positions report to the town administrator now would the town administrator be comparable to what previously was called dpw or is that a totally different thing sounds like so is this to kind of further clarify it sounds like the town manager the statutory controls or definitions relative to the town manager and their responsibilities are pretty specific whereas a town administrator Wallace Statutorily recognized position or subordinate to the select board there's more discretion left to the select board about defining what those responsibilities are you would approve the job description both of those titles are defined by state statute but the roles the role of the manager is statutorily controlled and the role of the town administrator is designated by the select board I don't think town administrators define this statute I think you can call it select board assistant or whatever I think sometimes what you call it is going to people are going to read into that what's higher a manager or an assistant administrator we're talking about somebody who really performed a lot of tasks a professional has a general experience a resource experience or an experience you know how little job this person would have and I don't know how much just having been in it with the role performing position I would just strongly encourage to if the group is considering lumping all the grants that are role related and this person would be working outside with the crew and it just the grants alone is huge and we're going to get more the town administrator would be doing some of that obviously we have to talk to the former or whoever because I thought previously there would be a lot of that it could be a substantial amount of time just people working grant writing I'm sorry what is it that you're saying I wanted clarity around and nobody had heard it correctly that a road foreman would be like combining a toby with an alfie which would have been a one and a half time position so it was like part time and alfie this whole time and that the road foreman would manage much of the road grants which are huge amount of work and also provide oversight and then in the winter be able to work with them and as opposed to someone who just goes out in the field and is working and monitoring I thought with a union you can't have that person go out and work with them the foreman or the manager so those pieces as far as like the foreman can be or not be you haven't gotten that far yet but it can go either way with union stuff you can have one that is and one that is gone I think this is very very preliminary but the town manager or the town administrator one of their major things would be grants and obviously the foreman or somebody on the highway who works once in the town would be the administrator because they have the knowledge of the developments okay so this one is town administrator part time assistant so this would be so the assistant to the clerk and treasurer is theoretically like that's two part times equal one full time and then there's a part time town administrator assistant well I started thinking back about when do we have an assistant treasurer and I think we had an assistant treasurer when the auditor said you're going to have some separation of duties and so I can't remember it was after Eva we started with you no Judy wasn't assistant treasurer in Washington she was only assistant on town clerk so that's kind of something I think we need to discuss because now we have no work that's doing part of the I think Sandra was the first assistant treasurer to Judy to you so it started while Donna was assistant to town clerk and while Donna was town clerk and treasurer Sandra was hired as assistant treasurer and I think that was the first one and then when you stepped down treasurer position you hired Sandra and I became the assistant treasurer so I think you only had two during that time we had accounts doing some of the separation of duties and I was there and I was there and I was there and we got some of the powers as well as the auditors and while we're discussing it all one thing that comes to mind is that in the current system the assistant clerk is appointed by the clerk and the assistant treasurer is appointed by the treasurer we're listing it as one position that's just a funky nuance that we'll have to work out that's one of the corrections it's just been lucky that we can have one person right in a daunting future without our staff we'll have to address that on my copy of the current one I scratched out the assistant treasurer under the town clerk I don't report to the town clerk under the treasurer under the body of the assistant treasurer you don't report to the town clerk as an assistant town clerk as an assistant treasurer the way it is here it says assistant clerk and assistant treasurer reports to the town clerk I don't report to the town clerk I'm not going to use the software before you It's a minor detail. And it's also trying to theorize a little bit the current construct, which just happens to be, you do everything. Well, if you go to page four, well, I got this idea at least, but we don't have a page four. We don't have a page four. I do. I do. And I print out. I'll share. Page four is a town administrator with one municipal assistant. So are you counting this as page one because the page is another? I thought. Page four. Yep. Well, my version I got for each of the town administrator is page three. We have two town administrator pages. Oh. So that's a digital copy, doesn't it? I don't think. Yeah. Okay. Sorry about that. The only difference on page four is talked about was rather than having like, you know, two or three or four assistants was to have a, was to make sure that the jobs were meaningful, challenging, fulfilling, you know, worth a decent wage. And I got this idea from someone coming in. Do you have an extra copy? Yeah. Okay, great. Thank you. Is a municipal assistant that assists the town clerk, the treasurer, and the town administrator. Because at this point we don't really know if we, if all the thousands of things that we're responsible for, we have a town administrator helping. Is that person going to need some support? You're asking if the town administrator will need an assistant? That's why there's two town administrator pages here. One of the municipal assistants that, on page three, it's a, I think I have put down, yeah, I had a part time assistant in the town administrator. No, on page four, but a municipal assistant for the town office. Yeah, and is there any, yeah, is there any statutory blockade that says that the town clerk who is elected gets to choose their assistant, or it would be a problem with having one? Yeah, so the town clerk gets to choose their assistant. Right, so if you omit the assistant and there's just a municipal assistant, I'm just thinking it throughout loud, like is it? That is an issue, because in Eastmont Hillier, they have pointer town clerk. And that's how they can get away with it.  Because when you write down Barbara's assistant this afternoon, but she's also got two other jobs. Yeah, and there's also the issue of long term having three distinct, possibly three distinct part time jobs, you know, it sometimes part time jobs are very appealing for people, but speaking to the thing of having longevity, sustainability, you know, someone who is just more engaged and committed, it lends itself more to full time, I think. The other consideration is space in the town office. If whoever is required to be at the town office because they need access to the files or the vault, you only have so much space in the town office. First you'll try to figure out where you're going to put a transfer. Right. And that is an issue. Yeah, so, well, thank you so much. This is, I think, a great food for thought and help thinking about this. So one thing, so I met with Donna on one occasion. She showed me these org charts, and I'm trying to figure out one of the options, I think, that we talked about was the town administrator being the road foreman. Is that what the town manager chart shown? The town manager is the road commissioner, and that's just the law. Okay. That's a flaw, you said? No, it's not a flaw. It's an auspice. Okay. What I had talked about, because I sat down with Tony and went through, you know, what's... He says he's never been to a town garage where there was a road foreman that really could do everything that Toby does, and work on the roads, and, you know, manage the road. It's pretty tall, though. Yeah. Very different skillsets. Yeah. Mike Aaron did it. For 30 years. Yeah. He's going around. I was in my kitchen yesterday. He's retired. He never reached anybody. I think it's fair to say that the grant environment has evolved quite a bit. Yeah. The grant environment has evolved quite a bit. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's like a general municipal grant law. Exactly. Yeah, I do. I mean, this all has to discuss this, but we have to think of the road foreman because of the union can't... You can't be supervising or directing the road foremembers and doing paperwork. I don't know how that works out. But the other thing that we talked about... I think it was Gabrielle and Ann in the South was having a meeting and encouraging the public to come to talk to the public about this. To share with them, we've got ideas. To be transparent about where this liquid might be going. And also the need. I think that would be good. Have you started putting together a list of tasks or not necessarily roles and responsibilities, but kind of work loads for each of the positions currently? I'm just kind of curious about how certain things get shifted. I think an initial concern about four with the municipal assistant is that we're... I think there's meaningful improvement and sustainability gained with consolidating a number of those part-time roles into a centralized individual who's tasked with each of those things. But I'm concerned about the select board administrators' functions versus the assistant town clerks' functions versus the assistant treasurer's functions and whether or not it's actually feasible to kind of cover the needs of all of those three entities. Yeah, I do have a list of four, which is the manager and the administrator. I think when I'm talking to Sandra, because I sat down with her a couple of times, it's tax season, it's really a killer. And that's when an assistant... I mean, you can speak to that. I don't know if I have any notes here, but what Sandra said was that to be a treasurer... I think she said you could be a treasurer for 32 hours a week if you had four hours a week with an assistant and then NEMRIC. I mean, NEMRIC would still be doing the reconciliations. It would still be doing payroll. And part of having NEMRIC is also a separation of duties and tasks. So potentially back to the interplay between road activities and town administrator if the town administrator had a municipal assistant or if there was a municipal assistant and a town administrator who was the select board administrator, potentially depending on the individual and their either experience or trainability could do grants, road grants, after being trained by Toby and take that on moving forward. And I was thinking that grants is one of the main reasons that a town administrator might need a system. Yeah, yeah. So I think to move this along, I think that... and Anne Winchester, you can weigh in, but I think you have a tentative plan to put this on the agenda for July 10th. Is that correct? Yeah, I was thinking of a town-wide discussion, maybe in the first hour about this. Yeah, and potentially inviting former select board members, chairs, and as you said, other folks that are interested in this subject of what all call the sustainability of town government. And creating an environment, a welcoming environment where people's best capacities and capabilities can be used on a volunteer basis because they're not putting out fires and dealing with emergencies and that there's capacity built by having professional staff for the select board to be able to do more basically a volunteer job and bring in other people to do other volunteer jobs. Yeah. Sorry, that was a bit... And to make it feasible for... Isn't it kind of overwhelming? To make it feasible to have the support to have the support that, you know, people... they're all pretty young, but the support for the young people can serve on the select board and on some of the commissions and committees. They need support, too. But if we go before, if we encourage a public meeting, are there changes you'd like to see in some of this? I don't think... Some clarity, I think, around what would need to be done to take action. I mean, there's so, for one, we currently have an assistant clerk position that is... that is defined in the hierarchy. So what's the process for making a change that would shift that around? You mean the assistant town clerk? The assistant town clerk. Yeah, that's in state statute. Every town has to have an assistant town clerk. Has to. And that's the point about the town clerk. The assistant town clerk. So could the town clerk appoint the municipal assistant to be assistant town clerk? Does that work? I mean, that's not worded that way in states. The town clerk can appoint whoever she wishes. I mean, I don't think a town administrator would want to appoint a young person. Although, you're talking about the municipal assistant. Yeah. Yeah. You're the selected point person. Okay. Because it doesn't seem like even if we, as a town, choose to go this direction, it doesn't necessarily remove the potential for an assistant town clerk if the town clerk so chooses to appoint one. So... Well, they don't just get to appoint them. They have to have a budget that's approved, right? I mean, they can't appoint an assistant and not pay them. Or they can't pay them without the select board because this is what you can pay them. Do we know? Well, I mean, it's, it was always, it was always money and budget. Well, actually, we've never had an assistant. She was the one on the show. It was a different time. It was a different time. Okay, but is this... So you're saying clearing around these assistants, is that kind of... I think that would be good. And I think for the purpose of a public hearing is a handout, a fact sheet that people can have that night with this definition of the difference between a town manager and a town administrator. Because when I look at the spreadsheet, or at the graphs between the town manager and the first town administrator, there's no difference in the blowchart at all, except the word miscellaneous. But you gave a great explanation about what the difference statutorily is between a town manager, their job description is written in state statute as opposed to a town administrator would be at the discretion, at the pleasure of select board. So maybe a fact sheet of those explanations for this public hearing. The other thing is, I think, Dan, you were talking about, like, a list of everything that goes for a select board and it would be... Because I'm not sure people know everything that you are required to do. There's a list... I mean, we got the list when we ran for the positions, but the Cities and Leagues has that list. It's a bullet point list. I don't know how comprehensive it is, and whether or not it's the greatest hits of responsibilities for the select board, but that's definitely on there and a place to start. The town of Thetford did a hand now, and it was called... Oh, why the town... In their case, it's an manager. Why the town is an manager. And a lot of it was about the open meeting law. You can only make decisions twice a month in your city. And I can steal from that, because it's a really good explanation of why five volunteers can go on and do this job. And I think some more... Back to the clarity point, some more clarity around the decision-making aspect of it, because as a town administrator, you may be appointed or delegated by the select board with certain authorities to take certain actions relative to just board orders for a sake of an example. But if... curb-cut applications or right-of-way applications, anything that would necessarily be subject to appeal, I would think that there would need to be a policy for what that appeal process is. So if somebody wanted to appeal a decision that a town administrator took, that would have to get kicked back to the select board, for example. And I don't know if any of these other towns that have town administrators have those types of policies or if the cities and leagues has some counsel on how to structure or manage that. Personally, you know, I try to balance any government body's will to delegate tasks with the responsibility of that group of individuals who are elected by their peers to make those decisions and not just delegate them to somebody else who isn't necessarily accountable to the people who are elected. Personally, I don't think we're ready for a town manager. I don't think I, as a voter, I don't want to give up that much power when a person is elected and you all share it. No, and I think what I'm kind of working at from a personal perspective is I also wouldn't want to necessarily delegate too much, even if it were a town administrator. You know, there are some of the more kind of clerical and administrative responsibilities that I think could make sense to delegate, but I think there's a careful balance in conversation to be had about even curb cuts in right-of-ways may seem tedious, but this body is the connection to the ordinances and policies that are established by the other commissions in the group. Yeah. What if we just present at the town administrator position what that would mean? I think so. Do you know what kind of reaction? I, um, so speaking to, I just want to first address what you said, which is, in my mind, why we need whatever it's going to be a town administrator, a select board administrator, I agree town manager is kind of a little bit of a foul ball, but I'll get back to that in a minute. In my mind, it's not that they're making the decisions. It's that they're doing what Anne Winchester and Barbara Butler are doing. They're getting the agendas.  And, you know, I don't, I'm suspecting it would have been shorter if there had been somebody behind the scenes who was compressing the information, gathering the information. Like, I mean, we got it done, but I think that a town administrator slash select board administrator is doing a lot of the work that is currently being done, first of all, by Anne and Barbara, who's working three part-time jobs. We don't even know how many hours a week. And so I think it just, it's not so much that we're delegating the things that we currently vote on, for example, but that, you know, they're there to give us all the pertinent facts, the context. And quite honestly, we don't have to think about it as much in order to form an agenda. And, you know, we can essentially, in a lot of, for a lot of meetings, read a board packet and come in, knowing what we need to know. Yeah. Yeah, so that's one thing. And the thing about not, you know, talking about town manager as an option is, I'm in favor of still talking about as an option, because it's not like we're promulgating it as what we want to do. It's just that people can know that there are these different options. And in some ways, maybe it's better for people's expectations if they know that we're not like looking to relinquish our, you know, local provenance and our control and things like that, but just, like, make it so that it's a doable job for everybody. I think it sheds an important filtering light on the conversation, even if it's not something that's being expressly recommended. I mean, it's an important, informative part of the conversation. This is one of the options, and it's one that we've sort of stepped away from for these reasons, but this is what we learned about it through the process. Right, it shows the public that when you looked at it as an option, there are reasons you're not going to go that direction. I just wanted to get back to what you were previously talking about. It's about different things that the administration could do or whatever. Here in Calis, Eva Morris for many years issued curb-cut permits until it was found out that she couldn't. And that she wasn't allowed to do. And one of them is Manage the Roads and curb-cuts right-of-way permits, all that stuff. It's all up to the select board. Just thought I'd throw that out there. But there's some things that you might want to give up, but you can't. I would love to know, I would love for the public to know what those things are. Things you have to do? Yeah. I'll follow up with a week on that. You know what I actually think would be a great resource for that meeting too, is to have a stack of the agendas just from when we started. So be because Ann, the way these agendas get put together is incredibly informative. That's why I can share this meeting without having done nearly the prep that Ann and Barbara have done. But the way she does these is like, I mean there's a lot of telling what it is that we're dealing with, but just by having it be. The best things that this board has done is to be really transparent about what you're going to talk about, so somebody can choose to come in. Have you all seen this left-boarded Ann book that is from Neil? That's like the Bible. Yeah. Are they still updating that? I thought I heard they were updating that one. I think the version that I have was fairly up to date. Okay. So do we need more clarity for next steps or? Why don't I... Don, are you around next week? When I work with you on that, I can help you with the formatting of some of this stuff on the flowchart side, if you want. You mentioned that it was a new piece. It's called Deuceuse. Yeah. I have another one too. But anyway, if you can put some around it, I think it'd be helpful to add some notes on what's appointed, what's elected, who's... Okay. Yeah. I'd be happy to help you with that, if you want. So I guess now what we're really talking about is what are we going to present to the public? Are we going to say July 10? July 10, yeah. So maybe I can just make a list of what we're talking about here and get together with Jordan about making the... Sure. The organization. Yeah. The town manager versus town administrator. The duties of the select board. And I honestly think just a stack of our agendas would be... I don't know who would have the time to read them. I'll do that for you. I'll take that one. No, is that a visual? Is that just kind of... What's the purpose of that? I love your agendas, but is there another kind of stack of... I think the purpose for me is like, if you ask me to say all the stuff we've done since March, I'm like, I need to look at the agendas because I can't even remember that there were, you know... Well, I do remember the documents, for example. I have a huge list of this hanging on the wall. Yeah. This is a visual. I like that idea. I don't know what it will be. No, I don't want to be sidetracked by being held accountable for things that we've done that maybe we've gone on as radar. True. True. Yeah, thank you. Okay. Ann, anything you want to add from your sick bed? I'm sorry, would you repeat that? Is there anything you want to add to what you've heard of the plan for July 10? One thing I would... It feels like every week I spent many hours just dealing with something that came up that was unforeseen. Yeah, again, that's why I feel like instructive. So... Okay. All right. Thank you so much, Donna. Donna. All right. So Select Board reports. The Secret Garden meeting at the Maple Corner Community Center actually didn't have a whole lot to report on this, but now we have Josh and Kristen Schultz have come to join us. Welcome. And so what I was going to say was that Jamie and I both attended an informal meeting that Carlo... Do I need to sign this? Who is the owner of the Secret Garden put on at the Maple Corner Community Center on June? What was that, like the 9th or something? 10? Something. And it was attended by a few dozen... a couple dozen people including the Schultz's and other neighbors from their area that have been... that hear the music when they are playing music up there. And this was at the time after the meeting Jamie and I spoke informally with the Schultz's and we did not know of any particular actions or ordinances that were pertinent to the situation. So that's just kind of how we left things. And they had written a letter to our zoning administrator and also unbeknownst to me at that meeting there was an inquiry with the Natural Resource Board and for a jurisdictional opinion about the Secret Garden and that said that they need to seek an Act 250 permit and so I don't know any other information other than that there were plans for two more events actually the event that kind of kicked it all off was I think a friends and family kind of event so the actual events that have been marketed and that they're selling tickets for our July 8th so coming right up and September and it's not clear to me whether the requirement to seek a permit on that I actually don't know so so as far as a Select Board report goes that's about all I have to say but I think these guys I don't know if you wanted to put something specific forward or if you have more information you want to share sure thank you so everybody on the Josh Schultz good to see you all and this is my wife Kristen Schultz so yeah so with the meeting you know there were some things that were said that you know that did more information that came out of that meeting that really concerned us and other folks that live up the road and one of the things was that was talked about was potentially leasing it out four to six times in addition to having the two or three of these events so now suddenly it got escalated to more events and they're you know this is thoroughly commercial they're charging it for a ticket up to 400 people going there it's loud it's a lot of traffic in the middle of the night going from 4 p.m. so you know late afternoon to 2 a.m. and it was said at the meeting that there would be drug use Carlo said it he said there will be people doing drugs here and he did say that if someone was acting unusual they would ask them to leave but you know well that was one of the reasons as we were leaving that was one of the big things that we were talking about on the drive home you know was like gee whiz you know this is not just going to affect our corner of town this is the roads in Calis you know with impaired driving so you know we have some real safety concerns um Carlo did invite us up there he said if you all want anybody here this meeting wants to go up there and kind of walk around the area um he said feel free so um I took him up on I went up there just kind of walked around and looked around I didn't notice actually there was a couple things I did see I don't know if the select words are where and maybe they are already where you guys are aware of this but there's definitely a driveway going up there I don't know if a curb cut permit was ever required um but there's clearly a driveway there um there's also been a work done on on the Woodbury Mountain Road that looks like it was done I'm going to guess by Carlo the only reason I'm saying that I don't know for sure so what I'm saying here you cannot take this to the bank but um he did mention um someone asked him towards the end of the meeting I don't know if uh Jamie or Gabrielle if you guys heard but someone did ask hey what about like police and emergency vehicles can they even get up there and that road gets washed out a lot um and Carlo mentioned well I had an excavator so I can fix it so we were up there it looked clearly like there's been some work done on the road in the ditching right around that curb cut that's in there and I'm not that's not my realm I'm just letting you guys know what I saw when he invited us up there so I took him up by what I've been looked at and that's what I saw um but um you know the neighbors um we all still feel that as we read the zoning regulations um it says that this this district is not suitable and they're unsuitable for commercial use this is pretty clearly commercial um and I know that there's nothing in the permitted or conditional use columns that mentions like music venue or anything in our opinion is because it's flat not allowed something like this is commercial so there's no need to put it in a permitted or conditional use in our opinion they were the neighbors um we all feel like that that's why um just kind of put a little bit into context for you I know I know I know John's right here but I just put it in context for you I did um one of the conditional uses requiring DRB approval would be um if you want to put in hiking trails not commercial hiking trails just hiking as I read it anyway and that was sort of a gee whiz moment like you know we'd get a DRB conditional use approval to hike or ski or horseback ride or bicycle but if someone wants to put in a music venue until two o'clock in the morning and bite 400 people and do all these things then that wouldn't require anything and again in our opinion that's because it's just flat not allowed for either permitted or conditional use um based on as we read that really the tone of that purpose when you read the rec the resource recreation in our opinion is that um the tone of it is that it's supposed to be this area is encouraging low density use um non disturbing use um kind of near keeping this area natural resource area in a near natural state um that's kind of that's very much the tone as you read this so um those are some of the neighbors concerns so yeah we did learn a lot in that learned some but I will say that everything Carlo did say well hey you know I might be willing to kind of like not rented it out or you know changing my hours I mean you didn't mention that so I let everybody know um but I have to say that it didn't necessarily leave their feeling too warm and fuzzy because that's just simply somebody's word that could be changed at any point in time there's really no nothing that's bounded it um right now so but like where do those 350 to 400 people park is your adequate parking do they have parking lots I mean I just understood that area calis to be like a wildlife corridor and isn't that why we couldn't have houses down the road because it would disturb the well there's there are plenty of houses on Woodbury mountain road yeah it's a and a lot of four-wheelers right two year roundhouses and then camps further out um a lot of jeep and four-wheeler traffic but there's a log landing just I went up to the site a couple weeks ago just before that meeting and there's a log landing from a neighboring parcel that did a bunch of logging uh over the last two or three years um and my understanding from just going up and down there on my bike with some regularity is that most of the road work that looks recent um was done over the last couple years by the logging company and the question about you know a landowner doing work to a class four road without select board permission is certainly a question it's a hot topic it's a hot topic thanks Larry and I don't know how much um he has done recently but I know a lot of the improvements you see have been there previously from the logging company where and maybe other landowners up there well yeah yeah well I but I think that there needs to be kind of a careful distinction about what work was performed what resources are available and then how they're being used and you know to have to have a space on a parcel designated as a log landing that's approved by a civil cultural plan is one thing but then to say that somebody can then use that as a parking area multiple times a year for an event you know that that takes that changes the context of the use of that of that space that it's that's been cleared and and so um I think we need to be careful about kind of equivocating about you know work that's being done with the intention of facilitating civil cultural use or other approved usages in those in those zoning regions and and and saying that those cannot then also be used or applied for for other functions um because that that changes that the use of the land and its impacts the another thing that was I think left as a a question mark was the um the use of County Road for parking um because it was that was definitely part of the plan was to have the overflow parking be on County Road and it could be like many dozens of cars and so um that was I think the thing that was maybe the most tangible to the select board potentially although this is the first time we've talked about it and I don't I don't know what is um how what ordinances or whatever come into play other than we just discussed that the select board is in charge of the roads but uh yeah so I don't know if there's a permit that would be allowable for an event that allows people to have well we do have that right because when people have weddings and whatnot don't they get permission to park I don't I don't believe there's any permit for that okay so it's just like the neighborly thing to do to just be happy for the people getting married and not bother them about the cars parked on the road I can only speak to how it worked for my wife in Maple Corner and the very generous neighbors who did not gripe about it but um you know there there is a there is a right to peaceful enjoyment reasonable peaceful enjoyment that everybody is welcome to and I think at some point there is a gray area where that threshold is is there there's no ordinance um or or permit for for having an event um or for parking vehicles on on town right of ways but if it's an ongoing commercial enterprise even if it's only done four times a year or eight times a year I mean I'm just thinking about our already stretched then volunteer prior emergency department who don't seem to know I've been brought in on it like are they going to be called out and having to try to squeeze up a narrow I mean West County road is not exactly conducive to parking cars on either side Carlos said in the meeting that he spoke with I think the sheriff state police and that they had said it should be fine as long as they put up signage or cones to ensure that cars only parked on one side of the road um and not on both sides that's just what he said okay yeah they're stretched really thin so you know so isn't the word commercial I mean a wedding is one of the but a commercial enterprise just to be clear it's not a commercial enterprise that's not in terms of the condition we use it's going to be handled to the section it's commercial development the only time the word is used is commercial so you've seen the jurisdictional opinion from the natural resource board have you seen that have you seen the jurisdictional opinion that got sent out to so the when was that June 10th or something I'm not sure I don't know the date okay so the natural resource board was asked to weigh in on whether it is okay alright so can you forward that to did you but basically they found that because it's over 10 acres it is a commercial enterprise they require an active 50% yeah so I would assume that because they require that permit it would have prevented it but it seems like it's still actively selling tickets and I don't know maybe next time Jordan you can have it from all the I'm sure you're 350 folks lined up I mean I don't understand I don't understand it it just seems really dangerous no but it's 10 the parcel that it's on is 10.4 acres so anything over 10 acres falls under the jurisdiction of active 50 as part of their ruling and that it's for commercial purposes because it's but I didn't know that because the other parcel is bigger than 10 acres doesn't mean you suddenly have to go to current yeah it is not I don't believe it's 10 acres of use I believe it's use on a 10 acre or larger parcel they did not go to active 50 I don't think this isn't a commercial it's not a commercial isn't it commercial if you're making money you could even have a piece of toast with Jesus' face on it and charge 100 bucks to come pay for it look at it you don't need an active 50 from it well active 50 does say that it's over 10 acres right if they're using more 10 acres I don't think that's how it's written I don't think active 50 would see I die from that we used to be not anymore I just forwarded you the active 50 jurisdictional opinion by the natural resources board and in that they're saying the basis for decision is that Calis is a 10 acre town there's a big mistake here I'm not depending on Calis or anything but Calis is not a 10 acre town we've gone through this so many times and if we have zoning rights in a town plan we're not a 10 acre town but for some reason about a dozen years ago they had us down as a 10 acre town it was an error that error was finally caught for anyone to believe we're a 10 acre town now that is a mistake this one you're getting bad information from someone they're not a 10 acre town that's directly from the natural resources board I know they were saying you were a 10 acre town before too they're wrong so someone should check this out whose job would it be to check that out? in Winchester so I can just say one thing I do think if there's a music venue that's charging people $100 for a ticket it sounds very commercial to me so commercial use I guess I'll say we don't have a prohibition against commercial use I guess I would disagree I mean just the way I read it when it says unsuable for commercial industrial or high density residential development or as necessary I mean when it says commercial I guess that could be it depends on how you interpret that I guess I interpret it as commercial use I use the word development it's defined in the definition it's defined in the definition so by just speaking for this forum of the community I guess I'll just say this I don't know if this is a forum to debate but I maybe but I just wanted to say these folks in town there's a lot of us that are going up that road we all are concerned this is really changing the area people live in a town like Calis to have the peace and quiet tranquility you know we live here for a reason we don't live here for raves and parties deep in the forest where anybody with a computer are invited to them up to 400 to come in and potentially do drugs get impaired and then get in their cars and drive and that's just not why people live in this town and I just feel like I think it's an important town issue I do I think it goes beyond just our neighborhood I think a lot of these issues could spread across the whole town and we're just trying to we're trying to do what we can to protect this forum of the community we're trying to just maintain the environment that makes Calis Calis and this is a big change that's being proposed right now and there's a lot of concern folks and I guess I can leave it that with you all I know there's limited stuff that select work can do so we're just trying to raise this red flag as best we can yeah and it's fair I mean I worry about the drug use and the trafficking on the east side of town is spreading unfortunately in more pockets of people wheeling and dealing and all of the crime and overdosing and whatnot that comes with it it's definitely impacting our community it's dangerous for our older vulnerable folks it's there we go do people understand what a ten acre town is because I don't think I remember I wrote it down, what's a ten acre town? I don't know is it okay for John to give a quick definition? that would be great, yes please what do you mean a ten acre town versus a non ten acre town if a town is called a ten acre town usually it doesn't have zoning rigs so any use of land, any use of the Baltimore Ten Acres it needs back to 50 review and we were that and suddenly when it was realized I know that me and Jan Olson and maybe Paul Hannon this, I'm going back I think 20 years we saw this what's going on and a number of us made trips up to the natural resources folks and Susan Barrett of F-250 they finally said oh, please you do have zoning, you're not a ten acre town thank you I bet I can find the letters and documentation of all of that but somewhere someone found a file that said we were still a ten acre town so a ten acre town does one have a talent plan or something? it doesn't have rigs maybe it's got some a little plan but it doesn't have rigs like Wuster like Wuster it's kind of a great property maybe Wuster's not even a ten acre town anymore but they used to be as well a lot of towns were smaller ones, probably more if you go well they always brought in you whatever you want when they sell homes and stuff so I think it was that but I don't have all that this whole ten acre town thing came up again because we put a lot of energy trying to figure out what was the problem here and they finally said oh, my bad, you're not a ten acre town but it seems like there's still some people who are floating around where people haven't gotten a message yet and I don't know about the ten acre or the not ten acre but just seeing how much struggle some people have to do anything but it seems like this large number of people that probably are not going to be super ecologically minded and both on so much property but then on lots of other places in our town that we're so keen on preserving and not damaging and keeping the woodland preachers happy it's confusing me, I can't understand how it can be a thing that is considered and if it were located in a different section of town would it be different did there be more questions I don't understand how it would be I think what would be different is if people weren't hearing the music and that set things off on a really bad foot, I mean especially there weren't cars, there weren't a lot of cars at that time there was only 25 people there maybe but we're talking a lot more and at that time we didn't know that it was happening now we know the noise now we know the impaired driver we just had a 16 year old get hit by a drunk driver last year on Rainfall Road and people in town are worried about warring the speed limit they should really be worried about drunk drivers on the road this is huge if you know drugs are happening in our town and you're just sitting back letting this happen don't complain about the speed limit too so more people should be stepping up and hearing about this it affects all the way to Montpelier people coming from Burlington that's where most of the people are coming on the interstate this is huge I think they did say no alcohol is allowed no alcohol and if there's drugs there's alcohol there's absolute ways and snacks be around everything underage drinking and driving even better they don't have a liquor license it's being marketed as a party deep in the forest pretty clean the lines but come here and do what you want to do last year when they had it Josh walked up just to see what was going on and he walked up with a person from Cabot and didn't know who he was and the guy says yeah dude there's nowhere safe to party anymore we're going to get caught so deep in the woods you know yeah not helpful I mean he was not yeah so okay that so this got put on as a select board report I really appreciate you guys coming in I don't quite know what the select boards next steps are but I really do appreciate that you came in thanks for taking testimony I appreciate that so before we move on and thank you I'd like a little bit more clarity on some outstanding things I think it would be I would like to know who would like to take responsibility for reaching out to ANR about purifying their for designating Callis as a 10 acre town it's a natural resource board but I think that should be John I don't consider being a special appointee of the select board to do it but I'm going to get to the bottom so John I just quick looked up the NRV's website and on their website they have a list of all 10 acre and 1 acre town and Callis is listed as a 10 acre town as is Berry City, Berry Town, Burley and East Montpelier, Montpelier, Middlesex Northfield most of Washington County Worcester is one of the few that's a 1 acre town but most of Washington County is listed as a 10 acre town I don't know what my understanding is that 10 acres of land have to be involved in whatever it is whether it's clearing or parking lot if it's any development on land bigger than 10 acres means you have 250 how many properties do we have in town that are more than 10 acres that are getting to the large or something why aren't those properties getting that 250 it's because you're not involved in 10 acres of land even if it's on a 25 acre person I think this has a resource to clarify I mean because if it's a residence you would not need an active 50 for a garage on a parcel greater than 10 acres it is a stage and a parking area and he was using it and paying them is it Carlos's or is it Andrew Shepard I don't know so part of the jurisdictional opinion stated that Carlos bought the property from Andy Shepard but has not actually paid for it yet and according to the opinion he has a five year payment plan and so NRB is saying because of the arrangements of that land transfer considering Andy a co-owner in the parcel if he still owns the deed right