Hello everybody as you join us everyone joining us from all around the world today for our 42 courses speaker event today we are so pleased to be joined by Patrick Collister. Somewhat a legend in advertising, even though he may well deny it himself. He's worked for many years in the advertising world, many of the top companies that you will be familiar with. Most recently, Google and is now creative director of ad lib digital. And I'm sure in that period of time has seen huge changes in the way that advertising operates. Patrick Collister you're very welcome to join us here in the 42 courses speaker event. Thank you very much Louise. I think a couple of things in one of your flyers. I was billed as being the head of design at Google. I wish. I'm going to start with a design for a team called the zoo which is Google's creative think tank. But it wasn't really actually I'm going to start a little story here. When I did join Google. I discovered that before me, there had been a head of design. And she had left the company which is why the trade press thought that I was her replacement, which I wasn't. The amazing thing about her and why she left the company was that Google engineers were looking at the color blues. You'll notice the Google search engine you'll notice that all of the titles are in a blue type of face. And being Google they started experimenting with them to see if there were any differences and I'm blind me. One of these blues led to a $30 million a day difference in transactions. So they said to the head of design. Well look at this this Panto cut isn't this amazing she's yeah that's amazing but we're using that one and they said no no you don't understand this one has a $30 million a day difference. She said, Well I'm using that one. And shortly afterwards she left the company. It's a great story to start us off with and, as I said past Patrick, Patrick, I'm sure you've seen many many changes over the years and I want to read something back to you which you may not remember saying the quoting Patrick.    And I mean, we're often talking about the value of advertising from how it used to be for TV and now this move into digital and just sort of patching it in to make it fit in. And I think you've got quite strong feelings about that Patrick. I'm afraid. I mean, I do find it fascinating whenever I go to a marketing or advertising conference and I start frothing at the giblets. I ask people how many of them have got ad blockers installed and at least 50% of people do. In other words, in our own industry we recognize that we are the problem.  And I find this absolutely amazing. And of course the reason for this is the way technology is grabbed hold of advertising and made vast fortunes out of it. So I'm loosely speaking it's called programmatic. And so, you know the delivery of advertising to an identified target audience in a nanosecond, you know the bidding, and then the placement of that is just staggering how it happens. What it has led to is, is people thinking that targeting is what advertising is all about, except they're not even bloody targeting and this is the bit that really gets me when I worked at Google, only 3% of digital ads, and we're talking about advertising now say maybe things have changed but I would argue only marginally only 3% of digital ads are actually targeted are personalized in any degree at all. 97% of it is just spray and pray.  So why bother with the creative. It's still going to work to some extent or another I mean, my analogy is with direct mail. I asked your mind back 2030 years ago and all of the stuff that landed on your welcome map. You know, when direct marketers punched air because they had managed to 2% response rate. I mean I was asking them, what about the other 98% who actually found your mailing offensive, you know to one degree or another. And it doesn't matter the 2% justifies everything. Well now you look at digital and actually the average click through rate on Google, the Google display network is 0.02%. So we're now talking about 99.98% of people being in receipt of stuff they don't want. And yeah, you know I'm saying just 20 years ago, Seth Godin wrote that book. Permission marketing, you know and he anticipated a time in which advertising would be anticipated would be relevant, you know would be a personalized and so people would relish it instead of which advertising is now become crass. It's become invasive and it's become just annoying. We spoke when we met earlier in the week, Patrick, about can and how we thought maybe how things had maybe changed recently. And when we're talking about digital obviously we're covering so many things online ads, search marketing, but let's talk about the importance of mobile. Let's talk about advertising and then this whole thing that just doesn't seem to be talked about and which I know you've touched on that of course we see so much on a smaller screen now, whatever percentage of amount of information is seen on a phone screen. Let's talk about that a little bit, Patrick. Well, I do find the whole mobile thing. Challenging because actually I but the trend I still look at things on a laptop and on a desktop. But I mean my own business, I'm in the cables awards for example I mean 70% of all our website views are on mobile devices of one sort or another. So, so that's how people consume and of course you know tech talk is absolutely descriptive of that because now that's the shape and size of videos that's the way people like to create them and like to consume them. And of course, you know the mobile phone is this astonishing thing, you know because it's not just a receiver, you're not just receiving entertainment you're creating it as well. I mean, can about six or seven years ago will I am was one of the speakers he'd been invited there by Samsung. And I found him just really entrancing actually as a creative person. But he was talking about the fact that the black eyed peas and just recorded an album, and the record company was wondering how to advertise it. And so they briefed an agency and admin scripts and it was all rubbish and everyone was arguing and all the rest of it. Anyway, they were in the studio recording this album, and the executives have been talking about it so will I am pulled out his mobile phone. He's been half an hour shooting some stuff. He edited it on his mobile phone, and then he just posted it onto YouTube, and it had had three million views 48 hours later. So just, and that's the thing about it is a lot of people forget that it's also not just a reception devices a transmitter as well. And of course that's what's changing advertising so totally influences, you know, people you can believe because it's like the girl next door or it's, it's somebody whose life is is one similar to you know. So, so much advertising money is flooding into influences because we're accessing them and feel we have a relationship with every day through this amazing little device, you've got your best friend in your pocket. And of course, being answerable to your consumers is the massive change, instantly responsive. Your work goes out work that used to take months to create is creating more quickly put out and responded to immediately.  I don't know I think it was last week really about brands joining the conversation about the Queen's death. I mean, ecotricity.    I mean I do find it amazing I mean, you know we were talking about can as well I mean how there's so much purpose driven advertising now winning awards but but one of the really dangerous areas for brands to go is BLM is to do with, you know, black lives black lives matter and it's really important for them because it's really tricky really tricky that there is an oppressed minority and brands think that they can join a conversation about they can't they really really can't. And when L'Oreal after the murder of George Floyd tweeted solidarity with our black, you know friends and black community. Now you tell a story that I really enjoy Patrick and I'll just remind you about it. And it's along the lines of when you're talking about search, which I think often search is maybe belittled a little bit these days because we think oh you don't have to think all you have to tap it into search. But you tell a very nice story, which is how when people started putting in the search box, you know, how I feel sad or how should I feel or how should a man feel that then this was recognized and reacted to by certain brands in creating solutions which you tell us a little bit about that Patrick. Yeah, honestly when I was at Google, some of the guys in my team and girls in my team were looking at search data and people began searching for answers to emotional questions and, and they're really insightful so for example, one search question that was asked 61 million times in one particular year was, what's it like to be rich, and, and so the zoo team in Paris actually took hold of that. And they thought they would answer it. And so for the El Jumeir group of hotels, there's the El Burge Hotel the one that looks like a sale. It's the experience of that. So, again, using Google technology you could go into the hotel and explore it in minute detail, all the way through to the little hair meth knickknacks you have beside the beds I have to say, you know, it is breath taking breath for a seven star hotel. But, but answering that question what's it like to be rich and I've got to come out the other side thinking well, I mean, I don't know if I'd live it like that but, but also I mean, the team work with Unilever on where axe links. We're looking for new positioning because axe the spray was for teenage boys and it was basically the proposition was spray and get laid. As if, you know, my son when he was a teenager used to come tottering out of his bedroom just reeking axe. I was trying to say listen, this could not have the result you desire my friend but. But anyway, it was Google analysts who noticed that guys were going online and they were searching for things like well is it okay for a guy to wear pink.  And then, from that insight, Unilever were able to start talking to young men about self identity of course it's okay to wear pink of course it's okay to let like other men, of course, do you know and from that, a positioning axe links, then change their advertising that was all about be the person you want to be and say. There's an absolutely amazing book. I'm just looking at my bookshelf here I'm coming back. Don't go yet Patrick with so much more to ask you. Oh yeah here we go. There's fantastic book by Seth, Seth Stevens David of it's called everybody lies. And he was a Google analyst and an engineer. And he took a look at what people really think and do because their search behavior reveals all of that. And so it was really really fascinating. So all of his researchers are suppose about five years old now but after the Boston marathon bombing. There was a massive surge in anti Muslim feeling across America, and to such an extent that President Obama gave a state of the nation address to say look, you know what we have to do is to calm down and calm the talk.  In other words, as Obama was talking, people got madder and madder and madder and more and more, until there was this one moment when very and you have to remember that some of our best loved sportsman and many of our military are Muslims as well. Suddenly people are going online and they're saying to Google, okay, Muslim sportsman, and they discover Mike Tyson is a Muslim they discover that Shaq and Neil was a Muslim, and they find that really interesting And so Seth and Neil then wrote to the White House saying look, you know this is really good stuff but what you need to do is to be more specific mention names, you know, talk about how these people are absolutely part of the Weft and Warp of American life, and it has an effect so. I mentioned earlier the fantastic stories there. Thank you Patrick. You mentioned earlier the phrase programmatic advertising. And of course as you said, people genuinely hate advertising but I think you give the caveat that people genuinely hate advertising, unless it's relevant. So let's, let's just talk about that unless it's salient to them personally. I mean the thing is that people, all people will tell you they hate advertising. And in the advertising industry we've taken that to heart. The truth is that people don't hate advertising they just hate bad advertising, and most advertising that confronted with is bad advertising and I mean by that it's, it's charmless it's thoughtless.  And I think that still holds good today in the digital space as well. So for me I'll talk about the word creative. What does it mean well actually means being interesting. There's no more than that. The other thing is interesting I'll go, ooh, and that is often because it's personal to me. And that's the thing about digital media. I can target people by their interests. If I know you're into. If you're into say modern art, for example, and I'm a Pepsi brand launching a new water. It's going to be premium priced. And I've decided that my target audience is a metropolitan that my this is really fascinating. You know because now I can talk to people about art. You know, and they'll go, oh that's interesting. And so. Yeah. And of course, this is the ideal isn't it this programmatic advertising, but at the same time it's problematic isn't it you know we're sending out signals, but at the same time if too many responses to my signals become too personal. Then it's just creepy. Yeah, where is this balance for advertisers today whereby they want to personalize the message but at the same time, they don't want their target market saying, Oh God that person's tracking me. Yeah, well, we're going to have to wait and see what happens but Google is what they call deprecating third the cookie. In other words, third party data, but I'm in the fascinating thing about that is, I don't think it's going to make any difference. You know what people like Google say is that first party data means that I have to give you data about myself willingly and I understand what the compact now is between the two of us. And as a result of that, they believe that creativity will make a comeback and I'm getting. Well I don't think so because most of us are now getting accustomed to every time you click on to a website. You know they ask you to click on a little button saying that you accept cookies. So from that moment on, if you know what I mean you sold yourself to the devil. And so, you know the point is that there is just so much media now with so much space that there's just so much bloody advertising you can't escape it.   And I mean, honestly, it does drive me nuts.  I actually can spell and punctuate unlike a lot of copywriters. He said waspish least. As you say the the premium option these days is, as you say to have YouTube and opt for no adverts means the Spotify premium is without adverts and yet they've managed to avoid that in the way that you'll listen to when it's embedded in a program we still are exposed to adverts even if we're paying premium and always trying to escape the adverts. So we touched on that word again, creativity, you know, when we're in these circles of people, it always rises simmers. And I think as you said to me when we were chatting earlier that nobody had asked, what does creativity actually mean so let's let's get down to the bones of this subject that seems to be the buzzword of everybody. And yet we never sort of take that step back to say, what are we actually talking about what does it mean to us and you know how relevant is it still to us today. Yeah. Well, I think creativity is a word like snow. In other words, what I really mean by that is the Eskimos have 26 different words for snow. We have one and it's the same with creativity. We talk about creativity meaning a multitude of things but we only have this one word for it.  And I said, that's an idea, you know I've had a but then on the other, on the other hand I've been working today on advertising ideas for a particular brand. I've been working for a platform idea from which multi channel community. How are those the same thing well then not. Of course they're not. But for me, it all comes back. I suppose to simple definitions. We're the only creature on this planet that is creative because baby baby we've got these, we can make stuff. We create means to make stuff and in advertising we do we make ads. You know I sometimes think that people forget this in agents is they think the job is to make a document or to make a meeting and lay the pencils it's not. It's actually to create materials that will elicit some kind of response, you know from customers consumers out there. Essentially we are making stuff. And that's what creative creativity is it's about making things that ultimately make the world a little better. I'm not talking about brand purpose here I'm saying about literally make things better. You know, I make a wheel because it makes transportation of, you know, lumps of wood or whatever easier. I make a piece of communication about a better mouse track because I want to share that with people and I want to be able to give more people employment in order to be able to grow an economy and you know so forth so. So as I say for me creativity is about making stuff that makes the world slightly better each time. So in the context of advertising and digital it's about being interesting. That's no more than that. Oh, that's interesting. I'll take a look at that. And you mentioned there sorry Patrick, you mentioned there. I think it's a little bit by Seth, seems to be a bit see everybody lies and we love it when people start talking about the books that either they've enjoyed or that they think are still influential or maybe somebody knew they've discovered so I mean what, what are the types of books that you play a role in your thinking or you've just discovered. Probably the most important business book I ever read, and which influenced me deeply was the empty raincoat by Charles handy. Charles handy was a shell marketing executive who is very very bad at it but became a business analyst, I suppose. The other thing about him is that he, he understood how people worked and so I've always, I've always been a great admirer of his, I mean, what am I. Well, I've just been reading Schutzpar and Schutzpar, the story of Saatchi and Saatchi and the hubris of all of that. I mean I do remember it vividly, you know, I can remember. When they bid for the middle and bank Saatchi shares went into freefall, and they had a new CEO man called Louis, Robert Louis Dreyfus to come in as CEO, his guy had been running Adidas so I mean he had form and the share price had plummeted from over 1100 to I think it was about 340. And I invested all the money I'd got at the time in Saatchi shares at 340 and then watch as they continued to plummet. And by the time I sold my 10 grand's worth I got 200 quid back for them. And it was really interesting at that time because the Saatchi brothers got involved a guy called in Chicago called David Harrow ran a pension fund. And he started cutting up ugly about Saatchi's performance and as a major shareholder started demanding changes. And he was told more or less to sod off. And this became a big thing actually and I remember being rung up by. One of the BBC business programs and they asked me, you know, what do you think about this Chicago guy, 26 year old as if that was important by the way David Harrow getting involved and, you know, stirring things up with Saatchi's I can remember that at the time saying and thinking any guy like Maurice Saatchi who can devalue his company, you know from a shareholder value of 1100, you know, 11 pounds a share to under 20p really, really deserves what's coming his way. And anyway, that's the story I don't think was an answer to your question. The story about the Saatchi brothers. Well, no, that's right. And here we've got what have I got I've got Rory's book Alchemy which is, you know, fans of we're great fans of that book in 42 courses Alchemy by Rory Sutherland. I don't know.  I'm reading this at the moment. And so it's this is the hit makers by Derek Thompson. Okay, tell us about that then Patrick. Well, what was so marvelous about this book he talks about the fact that we like familiar surprise. So I mean there was a great book about our written 25 years ago called the shock of the new. So something is very, very new. It is disturbing.  He talks about the fact that actually the big hits and things that are a new twist on stuff we're comfortable with. I found that really interesting some and he talks about ABBA a bit that you know that one of the reasons ABBA are so successful is that we're familiar with their melodies from Mozart, you know the way they classically create. But I was looking at advertising some and I was looking at this year's can award winners and I think that's so right the Grand Prix the titanium awarded can this year was won by the UK agency engine with a brilliant idea. He was a young footballer who was a knife to death in South London aged 15 and he was an apprentice with Crystal Palace so he had a career in front of him as a Premier League footballer and everything that in entails except of course it never happened. Father who is this whirlwind of energy and drive and passion in a finely managed to get a FIFA through engine to get FIFA to create him as a player in the game FIFA 21. So kind of Prince, you know, I came back to life as a player from that became a platform for donations or nothing about that. It's a great idea but last year, we saw Burger King inserting their way into FIFA 21 also by sponsoring Stevenage. And the year before that we saw Wendy bow of the hamburger chain inserting themselves into fortnight into a fortnight battle. And we're familiar with brands doing interesting things in the gaming space. They come along and they do it with with with Brio. And so, and so I look at, I was looking at can this year because I think the signpost to the future and never among the golds. They're always among the bronzes, even if they get that far or they're shortlisted. I think that's true this year too by the way I mean I think I really do think the metaverse is turning into a thing but all of the, all of the ads that won awards around the metaverse in can this year were spoof taking the piss so we can have a pint in the metaverse a meta pint, you know, Budweiser trying to get us to buy by horses or to race in some kind of metaverse equivalent of the Kentucky Derby. So that is complete bollocks but then hidden away in the weeds I found this amazing idea from a company in Australia, who were forced to create an alternative reality for the Melbourne open tennis, because Melbourne went into lockdown, there were no spectators. And they had this genius idea of selling tiny little digital patches of the tennis court. And if the ball landed on that in any match then you as the owner of it, you know, had content unlocked but it also created the whole arena as a virtual little arena. And for me, I can see more and more brands doing stuff like that in the future. We touched on that a little bit when we were talking earlier in the week and I'm interested in you saying, you know, looking down into maybe the bronze winners, because I think we were quite in agreement that we weren't so sure that those gold winners this year were really all that. Well, I mean in some ways, can, can lion should be flattered because the advertising marketing community around the world sees it as being this annual intellectual explosion if you like that we're going to go to the south of France and we're going to see things that happen. But of course, it ain't like that, you know, mold breaking work only happens every now and then. I mean, you can talk about epoch making campaign but that they are few and far between.  Honestly, I mean I know there's a whole load of PR about this but I think it's horseshit I think doing covered creativity took a real tumble and in fact there's research evidence in the UK to show that advertising creatives were more depressed than general.  Secondly, the people around you are ill. You know, and thirdly, you're locked into an airless room for six weeks. I'd like to bring in some of the people who've joined us to hear your wise words Patrick and my colleague Alisa has a question I'd love to bring her in so if any of you who do have questions for Patrick please do put them in the chat at the side, and I'll bring you on. So just before we move off that particular subject of of can and of advertising and I mean obviously you know this is your world Patrick. Just not to leave by the fact that we were talking about the fact that so many of the winners were charities or causes and this feeling that brands need to we've already mentioned it early but brands need to put themselves over as having this sense of purpose. So I'd like to just, well, a few words of wisdom on that please. Oh, they aren't words of wisdom they really aren't Louise they're just, oh, and opinions and, but one of the things I did it can is, you can enter a campaign multiple times, which means that you can win multiple awards with it. I looked at the winningest work as our American friends would say at can this year, and find it really fascinating of the 10 most lauded campaigns. Only one had clear commercial purpose. And actually only one was what you might call an ad, but you know TV video based. It happened to be nine minutes long actually. It was from Apple. And what I loved about it was that it's definitely the continuation of a series of ads the first one they had was kind of called back to the office and this one was called back to the office. And then in three months it had got 34 million views because it was beautifully written it was charming. But it's everything that the guys at system one Orlando would who wrote that those two books lemon and watch out. They're talking about his classic brand advertising. There are personalities there are characters we recognize them we follow them. We feel for them. And in all of the Apple advertising. You see the product being used you see, you know demonstrations and, and the whole, that's what the ad is it's written around product stories, and not just that one ad by the way I noticed that there were four commercials called shot on an iPhone one of them made in China, which is just delightful it's called the return.  All of this is shot on an iPhone of a boy shot on I do you know I mean this is a classic advertising but it's just wonderful. And for me the really fascinating thing about this is that this is the only brand advertising may I can see it can, you know that was that is consistent. And yet it's being applied by the number one tech brand in the world, Apple. And so we're doing all of this clever stuff with technology and they're doing NFTs and bridges will talk to you if you're thinking about committing suicide and then Australia they've got headbands that measure the the impact to rugby league play all of this is really clever stuff Apple aren't doing any of that bollocks. Here's some advertising. And by the way, it's brilliantly written and it's brilliantly produced. It's fantastically effective and I, I, you know, I find that so interesting, because, you know, again, going back to can and the IPA, you know, Peter Field and lesbian at the authors of the long and the short of it, have been talking about this crisis in creativity, what they're saying is that increasingly brand managers have been walking away from long term brand building, and have been spending all of their money on lower funnel brand activation what we used to call direct marketing. And they said, this is a real problem. And it is a real problem. On the other hand, what they haven't noticed is that all of that brand building work may not be in brand building advertising any longer but it is going back through into other engagements and specifically to influences. I mean, I was shattered to see in North America alone. Last year influences were paid $5 billion for their contributions to marketing. I'm going to bring you in in a minute because he's got a great question but just before we move over to you and just as you were talking about that theme of the adverts I wonder did you remember the penny advert is it a German supermarket. Yeah. I mean that one really struck me almost with its simplicity and you felt like it had the potential to run on almost forever with this, this family that you've got it sort of reminded me of was it the old Nescafé advert so you had the running sort of I understand Louise.  It was miserable. It was miserable but you felt like oh I can get to know this family that's why I've touched on it in the way that you feel it had the potential for the story to be developed. No, it was again it was only it was one of only two traditional TV. Very traditional. Yeah, which is actually why it caught my eye. Yeah, absolutely. And Apple was the other one. But again I mean what Penny Marks were doing there was supporting a charity. So it was all about the end of COVID. For me I much prefer the orbit approach, the chewing gum approach, which was I don't know if you've seen it but they did this two minute commercial where people emerge from lockdown and they start kissing each other. It was a massive kiss-a-thon. Again there's a brand promise in it but it was funny and it was charming and it was, you know, was, you know, God, German gloom. I mean you did say to us your concern about the lack of humour. Yeah, yeah I do. Let's bring Ewan in because he's got a great question for us. So Ewan we'll just put you on the spotlight there. I don't know if Elisa's managed. Oh super well done. It's great to have help here. Ewan do join us with your question for Patrick. Thank you. I'd have worn a shirt and shaved if I knew that I'd be spotlight. Thank you. I come to 42 courses thinking I'll dip in and have something quick and then there's a big thunderbolt comes in at some point and the one that came from what you've just been talking about Patrick is the idea of big ideas and how you say you have not really seen one in the last 64 years. And one of the challenges I've got is you when you see a big idea you can think you know it's a big idea but then quite often what you think you've created is a big idea. You have this fear that comes in that makes you think it might not be a big idea. And sometimes that fears enough to not put it out there, or you do put it out there and you realise it's not a big idea it doesn't land. I'm really interested in the campaigns that you've been behind and part of where you've had a big idea land, or if you work with colleagues who regularly land big ideas, what's the secret sauce.  And is it a quantity game, or if they got a process that's helping them land more bigger ideas. Thanks, Ewan. Well, back in the day. When I worked as an agent school BMP, most must see me bullet and they morphed into ddb and so there, the entire ethos was about finding great ideas and campaignable ideas so big main campaignable so I was talking about my boss john Webster.   So these are big ideas because, as I said they were platform ideas but he also had the skill to execute them brilliantly each time and so they acquired momentum and. But I think, you know, I mean I think. I think there's been a sea change in marketing. You know, if you were the CMO of a big company. Five years ago, you spent a lot of your time with your lead agency talking about the big idea. And then it was kind of. This is the word trickle down because it's kind of rather purging thanks to Liz trust at the moment but it was kind of trickle down communications you had your big brand campaign and then that trickle down through. But then I think what happened is that coming out of the financial crisis CMOs have been increasingly beaten up by CFOs. And so they've been spending more and more and more money down at the bottom of the funnel, in order to be able to report sales figures. You know, that's trouble with brand building big idea brand building. You don't have immediate figures they're over a period of time and it's very difficult to allocate a number to an ad that ran 18 months ago for example so. So that's what's happening increasingly short term expectations, and then marketers have discovered that actually, if you have a whole flock of little ideas. That tends to be more successful for two reasons one, because they're little ideas, if they crash and burn, no one notices, especially your bosses by the way, you know because they're still old enough not to be able to understand how technology works. But the other thing about it is a game back to the whole programmatic thing through digital, you're still getting sales results measurable results measurable, you know within days by the way, and so you're able to do a string of numeral reporting, and that's what it's about it's numbers numbers numbers. And so that's why I think we see the big idea under attack. Thanks so much. It confirms what I feared, but I think all of us are in a position to escape it. If we can keep a long picture idea of a big platform that can support 1000 flowers is lovely and something that I can work with from today. Absolutely. And the other thing is I mean, choose your clients. I mean one of the interesting things is Apple is the, the most powerful brand in the world today but it also had one of the most evil brand managers in Steve Jobs. And as my ex boss David Ogilvy once said that you know, in no town or city today ever see a statue erected to a committee. And that's the trouble with most, most clients, you're selling work to a committee Steve Jobs was the man, he had a one on one relationship with Lee cloud. And he drove it single handed. And you know you look at virgin one man one brand that stands for things you know the moment you start dealing with a room full of people you're in trouble. Thank you so much for the contribution. Thanks you and feel great question. Thank you very much. And so we're getting close to wrapping up time. And I am going to bring in my colleague, Elisa, Elisa's got a rather philosophical question that she'd like to put to you. So if you'd like to join us, Elisa.  What I was thinking of, and what I seem to come across from this talk is do you think the problem is that a lot of brands try to be all things to all people jump on every social movement, and it backfires in a way because, as you said nobody ever erected a statue to a committee. Well I don't think it's all brands I mean we're just talking about, like all of these things you know you have a whole spread there are a number of brands out there who seem to have intelligent marketers and then there are a whole load of brands where I mean I listened to a marketing director the other day, who was proud of the fact they had never had any marketing training, and you're going, God almighty. And I'm also one of the UK's biggest marketing driven companies. I'm not going to mention it, I know, but I heard the CEO refer to their marketers as the colouring in department.  So there's 8 million people in the UK, clad to have done marketing training of some sort or another. So that's 8 million adults who all think they know what marketing is. And I have to say that of the 8 million, I think probably 7.9 million haven't a bloody clue. It's terrible when something is in danger of becoming a vagant amorphous term without any real meaning attached to it. Yeah, yeah, totally.  It's a drags to data, but on the other hand, really successful marketing is still an art, you know you still need to have an insight about what it is that your customers are looking for in order to be able to meet that need. And then on top of that you need to be able to then present it to them in a way that they find enticing and that's, you know the advertising is probably the last part of that creative process. And there are a handful of marketers out there who are really fantastic. They sometimes kind of feel it's a bit like advertising some of the best people in advertising no longer in advertising. They got, you know, expensive because they were good and so they got chucked out. And it's the same in marketing there are some absolutely brilliant marketers out there who are two opinionated. And my friend Sean Gogety, for example, giving him a plug.   It's about company direction and ambition. Which again I'm just going off on one here is often why marketers do make very good CEOs. I think the last time I checked 11 footsie 100 companies had marketers as the CEO as the CEO. So Alan joke, who is the CEO of Unilever he was a marketer. And I think that shows actually in, in, in where he's taken the company and his determination that Unilever will be a purpose driven company with purpose driven brands. And he doesn't mean that in a greenwashing kind of context he means that those businesses will become more successful because they mean something valid to people. Thank you so much. Thank you, Elisa. So, so thank you, thank you so much, Patrick for joining us for sharing your wisdom on this Thursday afternoon. Thank you to all of the 42 course members who took the time to join us on this call. So for the lively chat that's been going on in the sidebar I think we'll collect together the wisdom of Patrick and we could probably publish a book there now of all his wise sayings. It's been a pleasure really to spend the afternoon with you, Patrick, thank you for joining us you can find Patrick in our 42 courses digital marketing course if you haven't already completed it there it's highly recommended. So it just reminds me to say thank you, Patrick Collister for joining us. I hope that you've enjoyed chatting with me today. I've signed in a bit like a tap that's been used. Thank you. Well I'm glad that I'm glad that you vented it in our company so that we can all learn from you and hope that you'll join us again hope all of you will join us again for another week of wisdom from our 42 course guest speakers thank you very much everyone for joining us today. Thank you.


And so I would like to immediately proceed on to hearing from a number of other stakeholder groups in this process beginning with the California State Lands Commission. And we'll do a slight modification here in that since we have no question period at the end of this session, we will have questions for a limited period after each speaker trying to stay on time. Please proceed. Thank you. I'm Jen Maddox. I'm the science advisor and tribal leader at the California State Lands Commission. And we were asked to be here to just provide our perspective as legal, at least those of the state legally recognized sovereign land owner of the lake. But I say it that way because in this particular instance of with all land in California, these are not our lands. These are our lands that were taken and that are now under legal recognition as owned by us as a public agency. But we all know that we belong to the land and they were originally inhabited by people going before us. So let's say it that way. I'm the science advisor and the executive office. And I want to explain a little bit about the public trust. Try to be straightforward, but a lot of stuff that was said today, severe off. So not very much visibility agency. The state lands commission is responsible to manage pursuant to the common law public trust doctrine. You know, millions of acres of tides submerged lands, a mile mark on the beds of navigable waterways, including major rivers, and highlighted lakes. I'll speak about it in this presentation. Although there are some of these in the Owens Lake area and the Owens Valley, we also have ownership over a surface sand mineral. Those are school lands that we manage differently than our public trust lands. But that's all I'm going to say about that. The state lands commission. Oh, everybody's cool. Okay. These lands in trust for all of the people of the state. So think about that. That's really important related to some of the comments that were made. So even though we're going out today, the common law for the benefit of all of the people of the state and in the best interest of the state. This comes over from English common law. The idea that the time submerged lands that are there for all of the people for commerce, navigation, and fisheries, they can't be sold into private ownership or alienated. That's the word we use for us. We cannot alienate these lands and we cannot allow uses or facilities or activities on these lands that would degrade those public trust values resources or uses or would be incompatible with those. A couple of really important court decisions, including one up the road from Owens at Mulling has expanded our understanding of the public trust. So it's an evolving trust. It's the living thing that's not static in time. So now we recognize the value of environmental protection, open space, recreation, access, and native and cultural rights on our land. In this particular case, I'm really hoping that this presentation kind of ties together everything else, which is already kind of a mind-bender with a lot of conflict, is that because of what you're going to understand about the public trust, kind of coming in contact with some of the really technical, intellectual, and academically rigorous sort of problem-solving approach, is that this is really going to need some very adaptive and collaborative solutions that do not degrade the public trust values and do not degrade the public trust benefits that this lake provides to the people of the state. We have jurisdiction. Why? It's dry, right? Okay, well, so here's the Bessie Brady was a steam ship that carried goods across the lake from the east side to the west side and back. The middle picture is Cerro Borro Mine. So people, they would bring charcoals on the Bessie Brady from the west side to the east side and unload that and carry products from the Cerro Borro Mine back across. So you can see that the sub-commercial navigation is dry now, but it's a public trust. So the opening had dried the lake by 1913. The state land commission was not formed until 1938. So the way that they looked, and prior to that, it was the surveyor general was all kind of like scandal and all this stuff, and it was, you know, put away for a while and nobody was minding the store. And then they kind of came back and provided this land-owning agency and land stewardship agency and the way that they looked at it was, you know, was it commercially now? It was a little at the time of statehood. So it was public trust, commerce navigation fisheries. Nobody's going fishing on the lake right now and we look at it, right? We lease it now for a few different things, but we still have to find our leases not inconsistent or incompatible with public trust. So we have leased with UWP, our main one. We've got a lot of other little ones, but the main one for the depth control project was issued in 1999. It was expired in April last month, but we've put a temporary foldover extension on that. And we've amended it for us 23 times because of the various phases, because of things that didn't work, emergencies, you know, all kinds of things. We're constantly constantly working together. So you can see how close our relationships have to be with state-based and also UWP. We have a couple of other leases. U.S. borax has a mineral lease, as well as some surface leases. They mine out of the brine, so they mine from Toronto, stuff like that.  Other really important public trust uses there are recreational access and then, of course, I can't stress enough the value of this lake as a wildlife habitat. It was mentioned earlier that this is considered an important bird area of Audubon IVA. It was also last year designated as a hemispherically important western hemisphere shoreward reserve network designation was placed over this. And I think things about the reason I keep coming back to context is we've seen a lot of change over time, a lot of human population, a lot of loss of other resources. So you can say that this isn't natural conditions. Olin's in its natural state was not supporting birds, shorebirds, breeding birds the way that it does now. But we got to kind of let that go because the fact isn't how it does. Tens of thousands of shorebirds, diving ducks, dabbling ducks, breeding shorebird, meadow feces, and they now have collected here while other resources and places to stop over and breed them how someone disappeared. So we can just sort of say, oh, well, it's not a natural picture in many ways. They also use its native name Hatiada, which I hope is okay. And I just want to throw that out there as a measure of respect for its original name, to respect the people who have lived for over 10, 15,000 years along the charge of the lake as it grew and trained. We should now remember its original name. That management is complex. We've got ducks blowing. But we've got cultural artifacts. We've got sand. We've got vegetation. So how do we apply the trespassing context? And what I've put here is that it's really about collaborative management priorities. Public health and safety is pretty important. And we also have to do it because protection and preservation of the habitat and environmental values, I just spoke of a little bit. And then also respecting and protecting the native culture values and resources. I want to, because the true experts are going to be speaking after me, but this area has a lot of meaning and culture and story. And it isn't something that we've solved in here or in your lab or in your math equations.  It's a living organism and it needs to be solved with respect for the fact that it's complex. So thinking about sand fences, it's easy. It's simple. Why would we do that instead of shreds? That's not public trust consistent. They are edgy. They degrade the aesthetics. They impede wildlife movement. They break apart. And so please, as my role in this briefing today is when you think you have a good engineering solution, remember that the lake is an organism and it has to be managed pursuant to keeping the protection of the public trust alive. So that's why I say sort of we have to avoid this collision force. This is about balance. We know we're not going to fill the lake back up and move all of the infrastructure that's not realistic. We know we have legal dust control requirements. We know DWP wants to reduce the water use. But we also have these other uses and values and resources that also come into the equation. And so that's the role that I have here today is to just go over that. And so I think that I have wanted to say about the sand fences because that came up and I was like, well, we wouldn't allow it. So just those kinds of considerations. You're talking about chemical suppressants, sand fences, huge leases for gravel cover. It is a backup. It puts us in a bit of a pickle. But again, with the communication coordination, we work it out, come up with creative ideas. And I will just close with saying I'm always available. People need clarification on anything about what our requirements may or may not be, how we may or may not be responsive to something. And then I noticed, I'm looking at everybody's files. There is a ton of brain power in this room and on this panel, a lot of engineers, a lot of really high-power intellectuals. And what I didn't see was, so you're going, somebody's going to have to fake it or everybody's going to have to kind of, you know, come to that is I didn't see any anthropologists and I didn't see any traditional practice experts. And I would just encourage you to think about enlisting somebody who may have acknowledged we have answers. We have people whose families and mothers and grandmothers and great-grandmothers have managed the resources here on the edge of the shoreline and provide a great deal of information, including the effect of the roots of the shrubs on the groundwater that inhibits the metagraphs from growing and the use of traditional burn. So there are tools available to you beyond, beyond some of these, what we all sort of graph onto as traditional scientists. And I would just encourage you to explore those things. Thank you. We have time for one or two questions. Any questions from the panel or on the phone? Okay, thank you very much. So next we have Kathy Bancroft from the Tribal Historical, who's the Tribal Historical Preservation Officer for the Lone Pine and excuse me if I do an incorrect pronunciation. Paiute Sifoni Reservation. Thank you. One of those. United May, Kathy Jefferson Bancroft, a new manoeuvre. Paiute Manoeuvre, a new manoeuvre. First of all, I want to acknowledge the traditional landowners whose land we're on, the Tonga. I don't know if I have any in the crowd here, usually I do. But I just want to thank them for allowing me to come down here to address you guys. We come from the land we call Piazunatu, which means the place where the water always flows, ironically. And my families live there for thousands and thousands and thousands of years. We still live there, and we care very deeply for this land. My grandmother as a little girl stood on the shores of Owens Lake and was told that she was going to live to see this lake dry. And they said that will never happen. That's way too big. But she did. When she was young, the birds flew and blocked out the sun for days. And they thought you could never quit that. When I was young, the birds, there was a lot of birds flying over. You don't see that anymore. It's gotten a little better since they started putting water on the lake. But a lot of things have changed in our valley and affected our way of life. Because who we are is defined by the land we live on. Our cultural resources are not just the arrowhead that you saw up here, but they're all the plants, the animals, the water, the air, and that view you look at. There's stories about how all those mountains were formed. There's stories about every place in that valley. And that's who we are. And we are part of that story. We're part of this land. We take care of the land, and the land takes care of us. So when I look at these dust control measures, since that's what you're here for, every one of them are very disturbed because they are so destructive to the land. They can't implement any of these dust control measures without going through and wiping out every trace that my ancestors left on that land that showed that we were there. They completely destroyed the surface, the integrity, everything. I've been on the lake all of my life. I've gone out there as a young child. I've gone out there to fish on the river. I've gone out to collect basket materials, collect foods, medicines, and everything, which got harder and harder the drier it got. I've gone out there later when it was dry. I've gone out since 2002. I've been on the lake in an official capacity representing the tribe as the tribal cultural monitor. And then as the tribal historic preservation officer. At first, they didn't talk to us a whole lot. We tried to save what we could by hiding stuff from the archaeologists. We didn't have a voice, but we still did everything we could to protect those resources. We don't believe that those resources belong to us, but it is our job to protect them because they still belong to the people that left us there. This land still needs to be protected from outsiders because we lived here for thousands of years and the land provided for all of us. Outsiders have been there for 150 years and then pretty much destroyed the place. When you look at the individual back homes and what they've done as far as solutions to the dust mitigation. I have to say the long high site should show the reservation is where I'm from. Our reservation was one of the reasons the lake was put into the project was implemented because of the dust. We all have really bad breathing problems. So we were really glad to see that something was being done about the dust. So that we weren't against it or anything, but then as time went on, we could see the problems with the way things were carried out. They were looking at little individual postage stamp sized places that had a problem and trying to figure out how to deal with the dust in that area.  But what problems is it solving outside here? Or maybe it is solutions and how can we do that? Gravel is my biggest problem with the back homes because once you put gravel down, you've created a dead surface. The lake, even though it was dry, was beautiful. It changed colors. It was different every time you went by it, and it created a really magnificent scenery because it had different levels of water in it and everything. But you put gravel down, it looks, it never changes. It's dead. Nothing is going to happen to it. You use different colors of gravel and you'll see lines of different colors. It wasn't implemented as good as it could be or if all of, but the worst thing about the gravel is on the mountains, on the east side of the lake, they tore down mountains and made a big hole in the ground. This was supposed to be behind the mountain, so you couldn't see it. Now it's just a big old hole in the ground you can see from the highway. This also creates another dust dirt. Nobody's saying anything about that and it's changing our landscapes. That's why I have such a big problem with gravel. Managed veg is a good solution. I wonder when I sit here and think they're doing all these shrub studies, why don't they just go out there and look at the vegetation that's there? Why do you have to do it in a wind tunnel? There is vegetation there when they don't rip it up. Wind doesn't always come from one direction. That's been the problem with the projects out there. They assume the prevailing wind direction. It comes from all directions and they're not always the same. Create different problems. The same with shallow flooding. They grade the whole thing to get as flat as they can to use the lowest amount of water they can. Water's good, put water on there. Shallow flooding has brought back some of the plants that we couldn't find that were gone. Water is probably the answer, but that's the problem. Is they're all destructive? Is there a way that we can do this without being so destructive? As far as it goes, we talk about percent cover and all this. What we're seeing is when you implement a vacuum in this area, like shallow flood, that water doesn't stay in that area. We have another issue where another dust control area because these areas were designated a long time ago. Because one sense at the south end of this huge area created some morning signals, they mandated this whole area. They said we're going to put it all in gravel. What happened in the years it took between that time that the gravel was going to be put down. The water from the shallow flood area seeped out under the berms into this area and caused what was it? 14 acres of grass to grow along an old shoreline. The salt grass that creeped in were like, why are you putting gravel, which is a temporary measure, over vegetation, which is a permanent solution to the dust? Everybody looked at it for a long time. The final response to make a long story short was, we talked about these percentage. The percentage of cover for vegetation has to be 37 percent and it was only 33, 34 percent. They couldn't do it. I started to ask, where did that number come from? Because when they did the farm on the south end and planted all that salt grass, they noticed that at 25 percent, the dust quit. They said, why do we have to do 50 percent if 25 percent is doing the solution? We'll change this, but we'll just add on another half and that's where 37 percent came from. Arbitrary numbers may work in the lab. They may work with legal terms. They don't work in the real world. Do what needs to be done. That's the same thing. If you're going to put shallow flood care, don't say we're going to do this right here. As part of the cultural resources task force, that was the first time the tribes were ever given the opportunity to provide recommendations on what we would like to see happen on the lake. It was good, but there were still only recommendations. Everyone, we say, give it time. You did this. This might have been a message before. Is it still going to be a message? We did get, they listened somewhat, but it's all still arbitrary and it can all still be mandated to be to be mitigated and created. I'm just asking to look at, there are several issues that have come up because they talk about average rainfall, average moisture. What's the baseline? If you look at today, the baseline is pretty sad, but you look at in our days with our families have been there for, there was so much water in that valley. So why are we going off of today when they're talking about groundwater pumping? Oh, let's see if we have an effect. You've already had an effect, you know, so that when you design any or think of any new bathrooms, please think about working with the effects that this has already had. Is there any way we can fix it and go back? And my main thing is, why aren't we helping the lake heal itself? This is a natural process of every lake that dries out goes through this, but normally they can fix themselves. They're not as big a dust problem and they will find ways to fix themselves. How can we help that so that we can go help the lake and then walk away and it's taken care of? So I just ask that you keep that in mind and everything. And there's a whole lot of other issues, you know, in the way management and dust control is done on the lake, but I'm not going to get into all of that. But I'm glad Jennifer brought that up because, you know, we have a lot of knowledge. We managed, we didn't just live on the land and wander around looking for what we could find to eat and everything. No, we managed that land for thousands of years. We have traditional knowledge. We have knowledge of how these lands need to be managed. And if you combine that knowledge with the science that you guys have, that would be cool solution. So how's that for a long while? But I really thank you guys for coming and listening, but I just can't stress enough that you guys really need to come and see the Ones Lake because it's obvious, you know, from your questions and everything. That's the big stumbling block here. So before you get any farther, you come up there. We welcome you to New Moon and New Willow lands. And I'll gladly take you around and show you, answer any questions because that's where you're going to come up with the answers when you really see what's out there. Thank you. Thank you. Question? Thank you for coming, Kathy. I have a question for you, which is, you talked about delay healing itself and you also touched on the managed vegetation, shallow flooding is good. So obviously the dust was a problem for you guys. So how do you think that timeline for delay sort of healing itself combines with some of the solutions that you think work for this, you know, and natural processes that need to happen? Natural processes are going to take longer. They're not instant solutions. But you could do instant, so not solutions, but help it, you know, to get better. You're not going to have 100% by tomorrow. They went a lot already out there. So let's work on the areas that, and that's what we're doing in this great basin and DWP and state lands have been really open, because we are doing some projects where they're, they're, they're tribally driven. And we're doing that in these environmentally sensitive areas because they, they have the possibility of being coming in this. And I don't think anybody wants to go to court to tell you whether the protecting resources or the clean air act are more important. So we've been working together to find ways to alternative ways that aren't so invasive and destructive to, to help at least slow down the process of mishes and maybe turn it around, you know. Well, my question was going to be you mentioned that you'd made a number of recommendations for what should be done on the lake. Could you share those with us and in written form or? Yeah, we had the cultural resource, cultural resources task force was formed as a result of the 2013 SIP. And we've been meeting ever since that. And for phase 7a and for phase 9 and 10, we submitted, submitted, the tribe submitted written recommendations. Yeah, if you can share those with us. Sure, those are available from anybody. Yeah, I don't mind sharing them, because they do really explain where we're coming from. And it's a whole different angle than people are used to looking at how to have a project like this. And I think it opens some people's eyes that there are other solutions. Our number one thing is wait and see what these mitigation measures that you've done are going to result in. Because a lot of them, and if it's the same thing on the lake, everything's different. Because in some of them, if you put a bunch of water here, it's going to spread out and resolve dust issues here. Other places at the south end where they put water in some places, it's actually made the dust worse next to it. So that's what you need the science to say, what is it that causes that? So we need to work together, because it is a complicated, like they would say, issue. And yeah, I'd be glad to help, but I'm sure everybody else would, you know. Anyway, we can. Kathy, I just, I'm wanting to forward this information to them, the TRTF recommendation. We want to make sure that there's no confidential information in there that you must not be comfortable with me sharing. So maybe we should talk. We should talk about that because off the top of my head, I can't think of anything confidential or we wouldn't have shared it with the whole CRDF. But it should be up to the tribes to determine whether that information should go. And it is sensitive just because it identifies areas that are important to us. And that's one thing I've gone through with this project and said, you know, there's a reason that these areas are sensitive. There's a reason cultural resources are out there. And that's because people couldn't get out there. And now you're building roads out to them. So that's, so we have to, we have big problems with leaders and everything up there. And so we really have to be careful with identifying those areas. So those aren't the, yeah, it's really scary. So that, that is an issue, but maybe you can get a redacted version. I have a question. You did express your dispatch for a while, but are you okay to leave the land as one of the backup? Tillage is really ugly. But tillage usually happens in places where there was shallow flood. So there isn't a whole lot there to left to destroy. So if it's done in small areas, I don't have a problem with it. It's not a final solution because it breaks down. And it would be better to implement a measure there that, like I said, would heal the land. So they didn't have to keep doing it. I've seen them tear down vegetated dunes to build the burn roads. I mean, those vegetated dunes were never going to become emissive, but they needed the soils to build burn roads. And burn roads are fine, as long as they water them. They always talk about imperpetuity. I said, if you're going to have water trucks on those burn roads, burn roads in perpetuity, then that's fine. But one thing, you're not going to be out here to water those roads. And when those fall apart, you're going to have way bigger problems than you have. So that's what, you know, you're creating a high maintenance project from what was low maintenance and would have eventually healed itself. Any final questions? Well, thank you very much. Thank you. So our final speaker of the day is going to be Daniel Gutierrez from the Tribal Historic Preservation Office from the Big Pine Paiute Tribe. My mom, she's from Monolake area. And my father, he is from Big Pine. And that's who our traditional names are within our areas. I'd like to thank Kathy for all her hard work out there on Patsyada and the Owens Lake, her and her culture monitors, you know, protecting what's out there. I'm part of the CRS, CRTS group. The Ration Officer of the Big Pine Paiute Tribe of the Owens Valley. I'd like to thank you for the invite to discuss key issues and important sources with the Owens Lake scientific advisory panel and share cultural information to further assist you in understanding the lands of Patsyada, Owens Lake. This is an evaluation of thinking of new ways to achieve effectiveness in an ongoing desk control method to reduce the airborne particulate matter and also the tribal perspective concerning the reduction in the use of water and attempts to control dust emissions. Patsyada is a sacred lake to the state of still symbolic to native people from everywhere.  She will continue to do so until people wake up and realize all she needs is want is her life back, her water. Part of the offerings are still made in hopes of Patsyada to become as it once was. It was honored and respected like all streams, creeks, rivers and lakes are as they provide life and life surrounded these waterways as determined in your archeological and anthropological anthropology and paleontology studies. NUMA people that who are NUMA people were taught to take care of the land so in turn it would take care of us. We irrigated, planted and worked with the lands to help us endure our way of life for thousands and thousands of years since time immemorial and they keep the lands air and water in balance because if they got sick we would get sick. This is the natural teaching of our ways. And this issue of Patsyada and the dust emissions is showing you. We're from the lands of the Kinsutika people in Monolake and the river streams, creeks from up that way, coming down to Paiana in Long Valley. Even the glacier water from Toba-Wahama to land, they climb. All the water travels the rest in Patsyada on the lake. In our language and that of the Kinsutika and other tribes we have names for all these places. We have histories of these areas and of dry creeks that we're dug into so water can flow again and water the land. We have the land that had to be watered in order for all to live people, wildlife, vegetation. That's in this part of sharing that our tribe of crystal owns like science advisory panel. So look into the choice of releasing additional flows of a natural precipitation that is brought from rain and snowmelt to be allowed to flow in their original waterways such as creeks. So the valley's water tables can be replenished. It doesn't mean that our time when your panel will be obligated to meet in the future to analyze other dust emissions situations in other locations within the Ophelio and Mono counties. The portions of water was to be allowed to fill Patsyada on the lake to certain percentage or level as it's done to Mono Lake. That would assist in resolving the issuance of LAWP millions of dollars in which they could utilize that money to assist Los Angeles become itself efficient and their water usage to provide for the city of Los Angeles on the rooftop instead of depleting resources from the own valley with underground pumping and surface water exports. The Lake Pine Pirate Tribe acknowledges that during the past 20 years progress has been made to reduce airborne PM10 in an effort to bring in the own valley into compliance of the Clean Air Act. It is also known that the drying of the lake resulted in Patsyada become the single largest emitter of PM10 in the nation and a dusting threat to human health for years. LAWP has applied various dust abatement measures on the lake bed. Their efforts were treated as projects that are equal and were applied to take and were applied to the lake beds and spaces. The tribe mourns the destruction of Patsyada and ancestors and relatives that use the lake and shores for many purposes. Tribal people have long known that the archaeologists are now seeing a long chronology of human use and resources of this vast dynamic inland sea. The best mitigation measures approved by Great Bates and Unified Air Pollution Control District and undertaken by LAWP have resulted in huge amounts of ground disturbance. Artifacts and numerous cultural sites have been disrupted or destroyed due to these activities. Existing environmental laws and policies apparently allow the owns lake bed control project to be implemented in phases in which the tribe disagree because this approach may not be possible to see the over-impact to the integrity of culture and other resources associated with owns lake. Archaeologists hired to serve in the dead control footprint areas prior to construction. We had only these arbitrary areas. As one phase of death mitigation led to another, a larger view of tribal use emerged and with it the realization that sites previously regarded as insignificant or eligible for the National of California Registry. Historic resources were destroyed before they were seen in their true context. At owns lake and owned valley tribes have lost physical links to our ancestors' way of life and places of significance to our culture like Pasiata. We only have stories of how that lake once was. Like Cassie mentioned the birds, they're so abundant. Life was so plentiful. Our history and our resources out there, you know that were out there if they're not leaded, you know showed the strength of that lake and the power and the ecological contributions that it made to life of everything from insects, from the tiniest of insects to the tallest creatures that still walk. And the death control efforts of the death control efforts at owns lake also failed to consider the impacts to the eastern series limited water resources. LAWP releases some water to control death on the lake bed but continues to export surface water and plant groundwater from owns valley. Owns valley is climatically and a hydrologically closed basin and owns lake on the naturally terminal lake. Constantly draining water from this valley and it's linked to export to a wider region of the state has taken a toll and will continue to cause environmental demise of the tribes and ancestral homes in that owns valley. This project with LAWP taking water from the valley has never been adequately addressed to as LAWP's project of water export continues many parts of owns valley are experiencing vegetation die off and as a result increased fugitive death emissions. One effective LAWP death control measure is to apply water to the shallow flame mitigation area. But it's important to understand that this activity puts industry on owns valley. Alley need to be deep pumps water from places like big plant areas in order to provide the water to mitigate the death. Alley is not paying the price of mitigating owns lake death instead communities like big plant are paying the price. The tribes concern that the ongoing dewatering throughout the valley causes a particulate matter emission problems to be transferred from the lake bed which is which is being addressed to other parts of the valley where death emissions are not monitored but we see it. The tribe holds a position that the best solution for controlling the intended owns valley for now in the future is to refill owns lake with natural service for those who tends to restore hydraulic integrity throughout the valley. Had tribes been consulted in an initiation of LAWP's DIY project the tribe would have made it clear that it's unthinkable to the tribe that humans would be allowed to deprive owns lake of the water if this is what happened in a very short time period as a grandparent's great grandparents witness. Predictably the brettification was allowed was followed by ecological devastation and horrific death storm conditions which may have been endured by our people and others. The CRTF was formed to adjust cultural resources affected by the death control efforts and make recommendations on protection. The formation of the CRTF is an attempt to protect where it remains to pursue adequate mitigation and the tribe would like to see the CRTF continue to expand beyond just the lake with regard to resource protection for all humans in wildlife and as Cassie also mentioned you know the areas around the lake too is starting to show signs of death emissions. It's nice that there's a portion of the lake that's for the shore birds and that's that's important however there's still limited action to a larger environmental issue. Earlier I mentioned when a lake can have a lot of levels should be established to apply to even though there is an agreement for Mono Lake it is also experiencing ecological damage and causing public concern and I don't think anybody wants to turn out like on a lake. History will respect its history will be about if lessons are not learned we need to make viable changes to protect our planet and all of its inhabitants. You can conduct all your scientific studies and spend millions of dollars to keep Patsy out of the lake free of death emissions. The only thing that will fix this is simply let the lake be a lake and let the water back in and on it and I believe she has mastered all of the people of those values too. Thank you. Questions? Thank you very much and I'd like to thank all of the participants in the session today. My understanding is that we have no request for public comment and so uh with that uh seeing having no uh public comments on the last bit of our agenda yeah please uh certainly we can I'm a Mono Lake if you go to the mic if you go to the mic on the people I'm comparing. Glad to be a chairperson I was invited by my ins and sisters to partake in this meeting today and it's quite important we have quite a bit of education scientists wonderful people that are going to be making some decisions for us that we're really being our lands are really being torn apart by people not speaking outside the box all these formulas are great land flux equals h2o I kind of remember that in chemistry water is life and that that is us I encourage you to come up to the valley and drive up and but first look at the pictures before our valley was gorgeous and our shrubs are dying our plants I mean we're you're seeing more spaces you're seeing them turn into tummies and they're flowing away it's like an old western and it's really disheartening up in our land DWP is planning on drilling 20 test wells well they're going to do that to the headwaters where we're at it's not going to take us long to start looking like the valley and I am currently a homeowner in big pines and I see our water rights depleting just as a homeowner and it's really devastating so when you're really thinking and I've seen you being taking notes about what Kathy and Danielle have said which is my niece but she speaks from the heart Kathy speaks from a perspective of really knowing chemistry so we have to come to Kathy a lot oh what does this mean but I just would like you to think through your heart as our perspective how much we have endured and destruction though we are here waiting before any of you now please think of us as you as our family and how would you feel in your land is destroyed because pretty soon we're not going to have any land our grandchildren your grandchildren we're all going to not have some place beautiful to share so please when you take it in your heart and you're really looking at these issues think of us and yourself thank you thank you any other requests for public any further comments from the panel okay with that we're officially adjourned