Communication is a weaponizer for climate action. If I reduce my own emission with 20% and if I tell 10 people about how I did it and that it's actually something good I say money and I live a better life and they will do it it will create this wave of change and that is creating the exponential change. So everyone could be a wave creator and that's very important to know. Everyone has the power to do something against this crisis. Ingmar Renshoek is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Ingmar is the CEO and founder of WeDon'tHaveTime.org, the world's largest social network for climate action. He's an official eco warrior according to the son and Mark Zuckervert according to France TV2. Ingmar is a serial entrepreneur with a background from the financial industry. He's a member of Al Gore's Climate Reality and European Climate Policy Task Force. This is how I know Ingmar is. I was the country coordinator for Austria and Germany and we were on several calls together with Al Gore's Climate Reality Project for the European branch and so we at very first kind of had a lot of conversations over the phone and dealt with getting the movement going for Europe and specifically Ingmar for Europe and the whole European task force. And then we met live in Berlin. Ingmar was a mentor for a group of tables at the Climate Reality Training in Berlin and we got to meet live and then we had the great opportunity to sit at a table organized by Ingmar with a bunch of global shapers who were also at the training from Al Gore's Climate Reality Project. And then finally he also has a sponsor or a partnership with the Berlin School of Sustainable Futures and we try to help each other out because we don't have time to to support each other in as much as possible over the years. Welcome to the show Ingmar. So glad that you could come by and find the time to speak to us. Yeah happy to be here and nice to talk to you again Mark. I really want to get into a couple things right off the beginning. So we've just experienced I mean we've been experiencing for a long time some crazy times especially around the climate but we've just experienced these pandemic we're still in Germany just Humberg just went in even wider lockdown.  At the beginning of this lockdown where you had an event I believe it was a climate action summit event or event in Sweden in your studios and matter of fact there were some speakers coming from Germany and other parts of Europe and they're like oh we're in lockdown but I think I can get the train I think we can make it and they ended up coming and it worked out and you kept things rolling because you were already a virtual platform you already had your app you were already doing a lot of things and a much more effective sustainable way to to roll out communications and activism and a much more coordinated so the question really is and I think I know the answer I think my listeners know the answers but how have you weathered this crazy time where you like we've been doing this for a while is it well prepared or did you also experience some some crazy experiences during this time it's been very very what I say different experience we as you mentioned we have been digital platform from from day one in 2018 we actually hosted the first digital public global conference where we had this climate conference where no one was flying everyone was doing it through through Zoom actually and it's crazy to to remember that now because nowadays all conference or digitally so we had kind of two years advantage of using digital media in order to reach many people and and have a dialogue so in that way it was very very strange that suddenly everyone we didn't need to educate people in the tools they were picking up and started to learn them for themselves but in a way it was really strange even for us was of course the society I mean suddenly you have the whole society locking down we couldn't couldn't have meeting with colleagues in the same office etc but we surprisingly I think we adapted so fast and I was really worried because I don't have previously liked this idea to have all the team working from home I was kind of conservative CEO in my previous career where I always thought that people work from home wasn't working hard enough but I was wrong I would say I don't question anime colleagues if they work or not regardless of whoever they are they are of course working as hard as as they would if we were having the same office and in the way we have changed the organization and we don't have time to adapt to all this is actually that we have many internal meetings every day we start a meeting with where the whole team are checking in telling each other how they are feeling in their private life if they're in bad mood or a good mood slept good or bad etc and we're talking about and sharing about what we're going to do today and that has been something we have continued doing throughout the whole pandemic still do and it's a really strange because suddenly there's no difference between the team that worked in the office or the team that worked from from other location other countries etc now whereas we are a true global organization not just when we do the outreach the conferences we're also a global organization in order of how we work together and I think this would change so much in the society I mean the airlines they have always had this argument that they are making you are smaller because people need to meet each other people need to travel but I would say I have not seen ideas travel the world so fast as it's doing right now because people meet wherever they are doesn't matter because still connect if they are at least in the same time so I think it has been a challenge even for us but for us I would say we we have prepared before and we have adapted really fast and I'm really glad to see that some of the others now are adapting I don't need to tell anyone the advantage of having digital meetings but of course even even I am looking forward to meet people in in in physical award I mean I met you in Berlin I took the train that's a climate friendly way to travel and I think we're going to do that but we're not going to do this fly in talk 15 minutes fly back we're doing to do more quality time when we travel so I'm looking forward to that but I think we will change the way we do business travel for gold here one last thing around around this topic of how have you weathered this crazy time you've been doing this for a long time like you know we've been together on Al Gore's climate reality and you were you were kind of doing this in a different method for for a long time did any of that give you resilience or kind of a better business model or operating system that when something like this comes or other climate issues come that you you say oh I'm okay because I've already been working on this better model for life and I've weathered this this storm a little bit better can you tell me a little bit about that or or yeah how it's been I will say definitely I mean I think many many people now have adapted to the corona situation but it took time in the beginning of 2020 there was so much confusing and and and everyone was canceling everything all conference were cancelled the cup 26 means the meeting was postponed for a year I mean we have 10 years to act and suddenly you postponed the most important meeting for one year and I got so annoyed at this so what we did instead was that we were leveling up our big Earth Day conference we actually helped Earth Day network to to host the 50th anniversary for the whole Earth Day and suddenly we had this access to all leaders because everyone was sitting at home and everyone had cancelled their participants at other conferences so we were really like a lonely active lighthouse where we actually kept the conversation about the climate going and I think we played a role here showing the world that we can't cancel if the world change we must adapt and we must continue no matter what because we we can't wait I mean we know that it's going to happen so many more crazy things in the future this pandemic is is just a bump on the road basically because in a hotter world we will see more pandemics we will see a lot of more disturbance happening so we must be resilient and the best way to be resilient is to adapt but it could hurt to adapt too fast of course because we humans we were not we are really good at adapting but it's it's a it's challenging to adapt very very fast but I would also say that I'm really impressed about how the whole society has adapted and that gives me hope that we we can we can actually solve the climate crisis if we act because what we have seen here is so much change in a fast time period many many people thought were impossible it's suddenly now very much impossible and I think the reason why we have actually succeeded in changing so in in an adapting to the corona situation is that people know about the problem people are aware about they need to act themselves they need to show responsibility and they know about the problem and they know about the solutions and they are involved in in helping each other to to get through this time of a pandemic so that is what we need to do now with the climate we need people involved we can't just have the global elite talking about climate crisis we need everyone on deck and for that to happen we need to educate educate people and we need to inform people and we need to do that every single day constantly I agree and I mean not only in in the name of your organization we don't have time as the urgency there but in everything you do the apps the tools the empowerment that you give each individual to become active kind of pick them up at the location that they are at and a level of learning or level of activism or level of business whatever it is that from that point they can start and do something and there's tools there I really like that this year I see and I can tell from what you said some fabulous things and a lot of learnings out of there but also preparedness because you've been in this mindset before but there was things like the the the Ted countdown event that you played a part in and and not only I think partnership response but you had your kind of a talk there with it with your regular moderator um then you have held the exponential climate action summit in September 2020 which is is fabulous that perm exponential gets thrown around a lot but I I believe what you what you're doing is educating people to understand the exponential function for those of us who didn't realize that the the coronavirus the COVID-19 grew exponentially and that's one one kind of example of the exponential function and how quickly it can happen and affect us all over the world but also how a tiny little thing I mean the coronavirus is tinier than than grain of sand or a particle of dust or a hair follicle it's very small but has a huge ripple effect and the climate crisis and biodiversity and extinction are even much bigger than that so I love that you had that and you've had some fabulous people so you've um Bert Chappacard Johan Rockstaff from Cristiana Figueras and numerous others that now I don't know if it was because they were locked down or they just say we don't have time we need to do this exponential and they came on board um do you think that because of the pandemic now it was easier to to bring such rock stars for the climate on board to speak with you or how did you see that that all occurring and what is your message even around exponential um of course it easier to get I don't know I mean before the corona we were the only ones doing digital meetings and people love that concept high level people love that concept because they they didn't need to travel to to to reach out with their message so many of the high level people you were mentioning now is actually people we have invited and had had another stage as long before corona but of course more people are available because they're not traveling around the bars they have time to do stuff like this but now we're living in this this era of like inflation of of digital meetings and zoom causes that run I think I think it's a lot of people have grown tired tired of watching online conferences so I think I think we are going to continue doing our global conferences but we are also in a process where we're developing this concept and where we're having in now is making those global events being more more of a dialogue where you can have the high level people but you also have the anyone on stage that could ask questions and be involved in in in a much in a much more concrete way where you have a two-way communication and what we have what we have seen here quite recently is the success of the new social network clubhouse and we we started that is social network for people that likes to talk so it's a social network where people are talking not not writing and that's I mean they are growing insane and that we actually started the climate crisis club on on clubhouse and in just a couple of weeks we reach over 10 000 members so there's a great need of having a dialogue not just listen but talk to the leaders where and the leaders also wants to talk with the people I think we we need to go from blaming each other and want someone else to do something we need to do it ourselves but we also need to do it together with the ones that have the power and if they don't do it instead of instead of complaining I think it's many times it could be more efficient to offer some help do you need some help in your process of going fossil free that is much more a friendly approach to get people change their minds I will say so with you know the obviously our world is growing good bad and ugly around us exponentially but there is the flip side of that coin that most people don't understand that the exponential function as in your exponential climate action summit can also be used for the positive and so a lot of people are like see the doom and gloom or give up it's too big it's too overwhelming but that same function really can be used to reach critical mass and go beyond critical mass to solve these problems and this is a very important thing the exponential many people have realized that exponential change could be very very devastating I mean the virus or or multiplying exponentially biodiversity or animals are dying exponentially we are deforestation or growing exponentially you have so many problems that are developing in this multiplying exponential way and more and more people have started to realize how exponential mathematics works but it is hard for people to understand it because it's not it's not something we have into intuition to understand it's something we need to understand with our intellect and my own background is that actually before I started my career in finance I was actually studying mathematics so so that's maybe a reason why I have a little bit better understanding of the exponential and what you can do with exponential uh functionalities actually applying to the solutions and and this is important because many people are so frustrated that we're moving too slowly in order to solve the climate crisis uh and we are of course but the exponential function is important to to understand because that is applied also to the solutions and now we start to see what leaders we start to see corporate corporations they are starting to make all those pledges they are starting to make this action it's not enough I mean we know that but here is the thing when they start doing things they are in the beginning of that exponential curve so we need yet we don't need them to be there we just need to have them walk the exponential action curve so therefore it's super important and that's why we at we don't have time actually have built this into our system it's super important to reward not just the perfect action but all action because what you do today is something that is going to help you do more tomorrow and yes it's not enough if you see it as a linear it's a linear development but if you see it as an exponential development it will be enough not enough if you don't if you lose track of the exponential curve so it's super important to reward everyone that are doing climate action in the beginning of the of the exponential curve but we also need to get them following that exponential curve so that they don't get off track and be laced and going linear change so we need to reward all good action but we also need to pressure them to do more so that they are adapting to the exponential change curve and therefore it could be really counter productive when the climate movement sometimes are too negative because if you're too negative you will get people off the exponential curve just stand by the side and do nothing and that will not help us so we need to have them we need to reward all good action and we need to keep the pressure up so that they will do exponential good action when they have done something good tomorrow they need to do a double good and there we go I totally agree and I'm thank you for explaining that and I mean there's much more you can you can go or I could go into that but it's really you know when we as human beings almost sapiens are presented with a a gorilla or a tiger or a lion we're like you know get scared we run it's fight or flight mode but but when we're presented with a graph or chart and say you know we're going to have five degrees of warming by this time or or here's a graph that says you know temperatures have risen a lot of us don't know what to do with that because it doesn't feel as existential and so the fact that you're picking up everyone where they're at where the point where they're at now in their lives and giving them the tools the education and the help to support to not feel like oh I'm too small I can't do anything but also to understand the numbers the facts the the truth behind the data and how it applies to them in their life and how they can can apply the exponential function the roadmap and that's a lot of term and what they do to really reach critical mass to reach beyond critical mass and do something so I love that and thank you for for going into that with me there is a question I believe I I know the answer already but I'd like to hear it from you and your organization do you feel like you're a global citizen and how would you feel about a world without nations divisions borders humanity one from another kind of distancing each other one for another and the reason I mentioned that question I'll kind of give you the caveat or the journey I'm trying to take you on is during this this time of lockdown I mean Sweden was pretty good up until recently not doing many lockdowns but most most of us have had lockdowns and and from what my understanding is the reason Sweden didn't do it is because they didn't have laws to do that even and now that they do have those and and some things are are changing but it worked out pretty good regardless but now during this time food was a global citizen continued to travel across borders species air water continued to to travel across borders and nations and those were all global citizens and in many respects but what we weren't we were distanced from one another and so I just wanted to get your thoughts and feelings and how how you feel about that and would that have any solutions towards a better future towards the futures you're working on I mean I see myself absolutely as an individual living on one planet not a planet divided into different kind of sectors so absolutely I mean it's very important that we we we have it's just random where you're where you're born but I think it's a meaning that you have been born on this planet so wherever you are I think we need to see this as it's a global problem and the only way to solve it is as seeing you as a global part of a global solution so I definitely think that I mean with the technology we're now using right sometimes I don't even know the nationality of the people I I talk to it doesn't matter because what's the matter is that the values you have is much more important than when than you happen to be born or where your citizenship are etc but I will also say that I think I think national national identity of the place we were born is also something that are deeply rotten deeply meaningful for for humans so I feel a prolonging to my my area in Sweden I'm embraced in northern Sweden it's really beautiful nature in the middle of Sweden it's like one people every square mile or something like that's really not too dense and I see myself patriotic for that region absolutely I also see myself as a Swedish and I'm proud of when Sweden doing something good and I'm not so proud if we're doing not so good I don't think you need to choose basically every one of us or global citizens but we also need to to stay in the local community and care for for our neighbors but that doesn't mean that we should give a shit about the people that don't live nearby we need to I think we could do I think we I see myself as a global citizen and a local citizen and I don't see any any colliding interest or conflict there but we are I mean we will not solve the climate crisis if we are making war with each other and and only think of our own nationality that is that's no way forward and I think more and more people are realizing that what's also great with the global citizen mentality is that it's really easy to reach a critical mass of people willing to change because you don't need to you can reach them at all over the world and suddenly there are millions of them and what the aim of within the time platform is is to connect everyone with each other that wants to solve the climate crisis no matter where in the world they are and I'm really proud that we today have members in over 140 countries working together and and of course we we need to be global but I also think we we need to we shouldn't be ashamed of feeling proud of where we live so so I would say both yeah you definitely got the answer right there is no right or wrong answer for sure and that's correct there's there's this thinking and this is kind of why I bring it up that that that we don't understand that there's both and that we don't that we also are kind of worried that we're going to lose our culture or identity of where we're born you know there's a lot of fear around that but the biggest fear for me or concern would be you know we we're living in Europe but there are decisions made in the United States regarding whether you be in the climate Paris agreement or not there's in Brazil with Bolsonaro letting the Amazon rainforest burn that has not only political decisions but far-reaching environmental decisions that put us all here on this world and so if we don't have some kind of a voice or something that we can do on a global level to say hey it's not right that the Amazon rainforest is burning or you're dumping plastics in the ocean or whatever it may be then it's almost a feeling of helplessness or feeling like yeah stay in your country don't worry about it and so we that's we can't have that mentality and in the way it doesn't the word doesn't work that way uh brasilia president has actually answered a climate warning on the wheel of the time platform because many people started to stop trading from from the country and money talks so we are interlinked with each other and the economic system is truly global and and we can't act on a global problem only local we need to take a global responsibility and actually i will say that we have we we who lives in a free world where we could actually express your opinions and and mobilize people regarding the environment etc we have a huge responsibility to use that freedom to also be the voice for all the people in the world that don't have the freedom so if we if you're lucky to be born in a free country you also have a responsibility to to actually care for the ones that are not born in a free country if you want to solve the climate crisis it's important for us that have that voice that we also are talking for for them because they can't do it they may be risking their lives and just speaking up and that's not fair so so what i would say is that all the people that are born in a free society freedom is great but with freedom comes responsibility and responsibility something we have forgotten about in this society and i'm so frustrated of all those leaders they are everywhere in sweden we have those government people that are talking about you should you should not go and and shop from from malls in the pandemic you should stay home only only buy from from internet you should wear a face mask mask when you when you travel by train etc etc and they're don't do it themselves our prime minister were were walking in stores the day before christmas buying presents for his wife i mean and on the question i don't know how to to buy from from internet but everyone else is supposed to do it he's encouraging everyone to do something he's not ready to do himself and that that's not just it's not him he's just part of this leadership without responsibility we have this code in texas and and the governor were like traveling to a sunny destination and and like fleeing the field we had the forest fires in australia and the prime minister were traveling to hawaii and yoy in the sun when the whole country was burning this is absurd we can't have this kind of leadership and and this is what we have regarding the climate and some other research we must make responsibility something that people want to have and the only way to do it is if you are leaders need to show more responsibility i think i totally agree the um there there's not only with this leadership showing the responsibility but with leadership comes a lot of stewardship you're steward not only over your country and an ecology of the area you're you're representative but for the human beings there as well there was a a beautiful thing that came out just a couple days ago from the mayor of new jersey where he gave a thing he was uh a building fire at an apartment building the basement a couple levels of the basement burned and he was just kind of and really it was i think there was maybe a couple apartments and a couple people displaced but he was there on the scene did a tv report says you know use carbon monoxide detectors use smoke detectors he was given that information he gave his telephone number said if you don't have those give us a call give me a call on my number anytime we'll get somebody out to to install one for free for you because we want you to be safe we want you to have heating uh during this cold time and those are the type of leaders that we really need to see in our world that truly care about one another as human beings instead of their own agendas and the the lobbyists that are beating their pockets and then you know my my my texas is a prime example with ted cruz his people are suffering people are without basic needs and and he just takes off because and excuse my friends he just doesn't give a and and and that there's nothing that works that really uh is upsetting because we're all on the same planet we're all distant cousins even though ted cruz is a total ass he's still a different cousin of mine and and he should be concerned about me as as i am of him on making sure our planet functions right and we just have this disparity of leadership that don't understand our stewardship and responsibility i think one reason why it is this way is that the political leaders and also corporate leaders uh they need they are only getting the criticism uh and in order to survive in us in a in a field where you're criticized when you're doing something wrong you need to be very very mentally strong and and sometimes you just don't you need to distance yourself from from the people because they are always giving you so much criticism media is calling you out and it's really and if on social media people are really really unpolite and telling you a lot of shit and i think that that creates more unresponsible leaders not it's not this doesn't create responsible leaders it will be working the other way all the people that are or have high emotion intelligence they will avoid leadership because they they don't want to be in that spot so so what is important here is to criticize leaders when they don't do the right thing but we also need again reward them that are doing the right thing the example you now talked about i never heard about it just came a couple days ago but i'll send you the lead the cruise example is the one you read about in media the good example you don't heard it it is not covering that story as much as the bad example but there are as much good example as bad example as there we just need to cover the good example as much as the bad example so that's why we at we don't have time we have this system where we have climate love for the great action and climate warning for the bad action and what's giving me so much comfort is that on our platform 70 percent are actually about climate love and only 40 percent are members creating climate warning so it's a great need of rewarding good action and we shall not forget that but sometimes i'm also getting so mad at those unresponsive leaders so of course we need to criticize this when that is happening one example that i must say this it in the climate field it's now really great as the billionaires are waiting they are doing a lot of communication about how they want to be part of the solution you have everything from ellen musk uh having this carbon capturing price of a hundred million euros that's great that's that's absolutely something we need to reward absolutely but it's kind of absurd that the same week ellen musk is doing that price his farm is investing billions in bitcoin and bitcoin is a is the cryptocurrency that are emitting the most carbon it's actually bitcoin are emitting more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere compared to Denmark the the country so bitcoin is not a green solution so this is very dissonance and i know that ellen musk has this knowledge so i'm really annoyed how we could talk about and do good things and at the same time just don't give a shit and do the right opposite just to earn some more money you have bill gates he has newly released this very good book about the climate i've got it right here too uh and the same week i think his investment company are investing billions of dollar in a private yet company i i don't know it's something wrong with that behavior and we shall not criticize bill gates or ellen musk for everything they do we should reward them for the good action but we we must call them out for for the bad action and have them to stop the bad and only do the good we don't have time for this doing good doing bad getting us nowhere and because they don't understand that maybe they are doing more good than bad themselves i think they motivate their action by that they're doing more good than bad but they don't understand that what the most important role they have in the world regardless of global citizenship are that they are leaders that people looking up to and follow and if the leaders don't do their own advice live us to preach no one else will no one else will and they will will end up being much bigger part of the problem instead so so this is what we try to achieve with a we don't have time platform is to achieve a scorecard where everyone not not the elite or the expert everyone you and me and all of us regardless if you live in africa or in australia or in europe um we could give encouraging rewarding climate love when our leaders are doing something good and we could give call them out when they do something bad and have them to change exactly i've got it right here on my phone we don't have time happen i mean it's absolutely it was actually the next question i was going to ask you you you've actually created fabulous solution to and it's almost a form in my opinion i see it similar to to taiwan in an upvoting process it's not so much being the negative or saying the mean stuff it's what what are the climate things that we can fix or the problems that we can fix and we do it kind of through an upvoting or raising enough critical mass to to let those leaders know they need a change there's a lot of people concerned about that but but uh upvoting the positive actions which is another way to use the exponential function in the right way and when when it's criticism it's not about just shame the one what we actually want to do uh in regard of what i mentioned like the example with the bill gates private jet investment i would like him to explain what why he did that investment and maybe he has a master plan to make it electric private jet flight i don't know maybe that is true so so it's all about having the leaders explaining themselves maybe elon musk has a great green plan for bitcoin i doubt it but he maybe or maybe he doesn't be aware of what about how how big in emitting the cryptocurrency actually are so our platform is all about the dialogue uh so upvote is important but when you have criticism instead of just telling someone that you're an idiot listen to them and have a dialogue and because just tell them that they are idiots will have them to do more bad things that's how we work we make enemies and we don't listen to enemies we just ignore them and we be annoyed so so the dialogue thing is super important and and it goes in two ways our leaders also needs to listen to the to the stakeholders and and to the people and we can't just have this election every every four years we need to have the election going on all day long everywhere and that creates a lot of change i would say have you read this book the new climate war by michael man by chance no i haven't read it but i have it on my to-do list have you heard it all about him or read any of his other books actually not but i'm i'm i'm following him close film on twitter he does a lot about climate denial he's pretty boisterous in his voice but this leads nicely to the next question that i want to ask you so um there's a lot of you know big corporations or bad leaders who try to engage climate activists and an argument with each other so like they take the the vegan movement around food and climate and they say well you know they pit those people against the the climate activists who who maybe aren't vegan who are concerned about the environment and then they've got us fighting against each other and we're not going anywhere we're fighting against each other because of whatever how do you feel about that or what are some examples and how we can avoid that or give me your thoughts and feelings about that that's absolutely true and unfortunately the space of non-profit organization that is that is most of the environment organization out there are non-profit they are they don't need people to make that happen sometimes they are really good at making it happen themselves because there's a problem that we need to address uh i love non-profit organization we don't the time are not a non-profit organization we are a for-profit company with a non-profit main owner but we are a for-profit company and that is i believe that in order to solve the climate crisis we must make it the biggest business opportunity on earth so that everyone works on this not the ones just the ones that are working with someone else money a problem with non-profit is that they they need to in order for them to have more donations they need to market their name so all their action needs to be in their own name so that's why it's really hard for non-profits to cooperate with other non-profits but because they're competing with the donations so here is i think we need a different mentality and we need different systems and we are going to see that so many places now that we're not the only company working for climate this many many kinds out there and non-profits also learning on how they can work closely together so what i see here is that the climate movement as whole is slowly but it's picking up pace starting to learn to work together and the mission behind we don't have time is that we want to accelerate that our mission is to connect everyone and have everyone cooperate no matter if you're an organization or an individual so everyone is warmly welcome to use our platform and talk with others with the help of the network we're creating we don't want to take credit for it we just want it to happen because it needs to happen so what is happening is that this scares the hell out of the enemy the fossil fuel interest because the reason why they have been successful in delaying all the change in the world is that they they have sometimes fueled this internal fight between different kind of environmental organization but often they just need to to stand by and see it happen by itself what they see now is a moment picking up ground where we have a much much higher tolerance for different opinions within the climate movement you could be into pro nuclear and work together with someone that are against nuclear but both people want to solve the climate crisis and they really don't like the fossil fuel interest that is what we have built our platform to to help and that is what we are seeing now is happening in so many places this scares the hell out of the enemy and we have experienced this firsthand because not everyone likes what we do so we have actually had a lot of problem with everything from having our office tapped to having our youtube broadcast shut down to to having our mail accounts hacked and and also a lot of other strange things happening that is really crazy that could make anyone a conspiracy theorist yeah so so i think that the strategy of having the climate movement turn into the turn to each other has been very successful but it's a dead end because now we're gaining momentum where that is not going to stop us and i also see that i mean the interest working against the climate movement they now starting to see more and more that it's more profitable to join compared to fight against it and this is something good this is how we turn the enemy to our allies i mean my dream is to have the big oil companies doing everything they can in order to capture carbon on this planet but here is something strange many people don't want that because many people will not forgive them because what they did yesterday but if we're going to make it we can't make enemies of people because what they have been did in the past we need to move on only focus on the future action i totally agree that you've just opened up several big discussions so the the limits to growth book is called the climate science bible written in 1972 yeah by we had the water on our first by this conference yeah exactly and it was the club of Rome and the Volkswagen foundation or Stiftung in German but we all know you know dieselgate 2015 Volkswagen and they must not have read their own climate science bible but companies make mistakes people make mistakes we can learn we can recover we can change we and moving forward on on the flip side of that uh moya is a sub company of Volkswagen doing wonderful things on electric mobility and making that transition a lot of positive things are happening a lot more could happen it could be always be a little bit better but uh you know i've made mistakes out goers made mistakes we all have yeah please give us the chance to bounce back and make it right to to to leave the planet better than we found it that that's one area the other one that i really want to go into is is you know we're where we were pit and many times by bigger organizations by bigger movie movements and lobbyists who were actually from the chemical companies from the fossil fuel industry posting articles the Koch brothers or or the Murdoch group whoever it is um trying to get us to kind of fight against each other or turn us into climate deniers or climate inaction and i think we've wised up we figured out that there's some education some tools and how we can see through that smoke and mirrors especially with what has happened during this time and like you so eloquently said at you you're providing some of the tools some of the education some of the talks and summits and along with the UN and other things that are really helping to to make that shift and um nothing bad for you but there could be a hundred thousand we don't have time organizations and then we would start to make a real big dent and you're setting the example for the world so to say that we're starting we're here's our example this is what needs to happen now let's get one for you on the equivalent of of we chat in china and on the equivalent of this so that everybody in the world every language every culture has access to these tools to make that movement um because i think we're just as far as population goes i think we're just tickling the surface just getting going on where we need to be but i'd like to know your thoughts on that if you don't mind um you covered a lot but but one one thing i think is interesting to to mention is that we talked about this global citizen and and the national citizen uh i think we could also talk about the corporate citizen and the society citizen uh and many people they forget that when they when they are talking about the company as their enemy they're talking about thousands of people that are really different working at that company uh and and and if you have a bad leader in the world like a dictatorship what they always want to do is to create the enemy outside organization so that they could control the organization and have them do all all the evil stuff that they want to do as a bad leader uh in order to to to make that not going to happen is to break break the organization and get the individual responsibility out of the organization and this is something i see that it's in the in the in the younger generation when they work at a chemical company if they even want to work there at all they don't see themselves as loyal soldiers for that company no they see them as some some working within that company that has a global or a society responsibility and therefore it's going to be much harder to do bad things and in order to speed this up we need to give all those people within in those organizations that are maybe not doing the good thing giving them the voice and the platform to help them create change within and in order to do that we can't portray the whole organization as an enemy we need to oh here's something in in a in an organization that actually are doing something great great let's work with this person and and help him get her voice amplified and and notice etc uh and and the management can't ignore it so so again we need everyone to take responsibility they can't hide in front of their employer like i can't do anything about this this is my company my employer's responsibility we we can't that's going on we need to everyone to take the responsibility and what we're going to do and we know the time it's actually something that we're going to help help getting this going in a much better way and that is making we're going to publish the carbon footprint for all companies that that have has has this information available it's a thousand of companies that actually have calculated their their mission and they're published this in the report but it's really hard to translate that data into what that means for you so what we are going to do on the wheel of the time platform is to display that data and divide it with the the number of employees an organization have so that when you work for a big corporation you maybe have five ton emission because you're going to work so it's your responsibility to talk to your boss in order to have your boss help you reduce that five ton to four ton because the competitor maybe only have three ton so this will make the organization really nervous if they have a huge emission per ton per employee because that that will have them to struggle to motivate why they are bad not performing as well as they're another company within the same business sector etc and this is breaking up this responsibility if you work in a factory even if you work on the floor you're responsible to raise your voice and have the the corporation just you're working for to change i totally agree and and that is a beautiful thing that leads so nicely into this next type of a question so you come from the financial industry and have done investments in the past and and have probably seen this i hope i'm i'm pretty sure you have where when you do you invest in sustainable index funds or even if there wasn't any sustainable ones at the time that we're moving in the right direction as far as corporate social responsibility or ethical investments um that this has totally been put on its head and it really hit the moment in 2020 so before that we were seeing traction and movement we saw some statements at the World Economic Forum in Davos from BlackRock and and many others about this is pretty much becoming a requirement but last year 2020 we saw in all four quarters first second third and fourth quarter that sustainable index funds ESG investing and business models all out perform their conventional counterparts eight out of ten in the first and second quarter nine out of ten second third and fourth quarters and on the morning star review it started out i think 25 out of 28 on the morning star review uh a sustainable indexes outperform their conventional counterparts and at the end it was something like 27 out of 28 and we're talking niki nasdaq new york stock exchange we're talking global fmp global 500 all these that just totally continued during the worst economic time pandemic and everything just continue to do it's a better business model it's a better operating you set it so eloquently and matter of fact it's funny because you have me speak for we don't have time just a little sound bite type of an interlude break and that's exactly what i spoke about is um the world's biggest problems the greatest problems around human suffering and climate change are the world's biggest opportunities to not only to do the right thing but to an opportunity to to to to i hate to say profits but to make sustainable investments that give a good return long term return uh so this is something very hopeful that that you see this development but i but i i think we're not there yet we need to do so much more but this is a good start i would say but it's still often very much more profitable to do the wrong thing and much more expensive to do the right thing uh because if for instance if you're going to build a house uh you could you could either build it with the cement that we have it's cheap and it emits a lot of emissions it's about i think it's cement alone is like four percent of all global emissions or something like that or you could buy the more new state of the art technology that are green cement and actually you have cement out there that will have a negative carbon footprint that will capture more carbon from there in the building's lifetime when it's when it's emitting when you manufacture it but it's super expensive today so what are companies doing they are using the old cement because they can't make profit of of doing the the new technology that today are too expensive uh and and there we go we're not solving the crisis so when what we need desperately to achieve in a short time period is making it very very expensive to do the wrong choice and very very profitable to do the right choice and here you could work in two areas you could work in the economic area by introducing carbon tax by introducing emission rights trading etc etc that needs that our board leaders are having a lot of talks and and it's often just running out of being a lot of talks and when you have something moving in this field you have too low so it will not have the the contribution to the climate solution that you want uh so that area is something that is you could use but it's very very hard to to make that happen instead you could use the communication weapon uh and that is much much faster to apply and that is what we are we know how time are building we are building a rating platform we are that we're going to launch this year where you can look up all companies in the world and you could compare them of who is doing good climate action and who is doing bad climate action uh and that will make it profitable you will be rewarded with communication if your company is actually doing the good climate action and you will get disqualified if you're doing the wrong choices so this green uh building company that are choosing the expensive cement or getting credit for it and if they are getting communication credit for it they will sell more apartments they will sell they could take a higher price for the product because the population the citizen the consumer us knows that they're doing something and we're willing to pay more and there you go that will capitalize change uh so communication is also economics and this is often forgotten and you don't need to be united nation in order to change how you communicate in the world you not just need to be a group of people using technology in order to to make it happen there is something interesting you said uh because I follow you we're we're we're connected as well but you said it uh around new years at the time of a new year's resolution and I understood it perfectly but I was wondering I was hoping you could repeat it for for our listeners who didn't get to see the beautiful post you said I'm going to stop smoking well first of all you don't smoke but I would love you to give us that analogy because I think it's very fitting on where we need to be and how we need to change this paradigm of thinking no it is actually the frustration out of this you have all those global leaders that are are also big large corporations that are telling people that in the year 2050 we will we will go net zero and again I don't think we should criticize them for for telling that but we should talk about how they should succeed in in in making that happen here and now so I make an analogy where I promised everyone that in the year 2050 I will go smoke free and I also did this really frustrating because you have a lot of strange things how do you calculate the progress you now see a lot of countries proclaiming their net zero targets and it's like kind of a competition between countries China 2016 European like 2040 or you have a lot of dates but what is strange with all those dates is that many countries have different base level days some are comparing a mission like we should reduce the mission with 50 percent compared to 2005 levels and someone else is saying that we should reduce our mission with 55 percent compared to 1990 levels and this is really frustrating because people are like cheating instead of comparing data with data they are kind of building a smooth screen and finding loopholes how they could have those targets look better when they actually are so to say that is what I criticized because I also told that I will in 10 years I will smoke half as much cigarettes as I did when I was a chain smoker 10 years ago so it was kind of an analogy of that it's crazy what's important of course we need to have a vision like in the future we should go 100 percent net zero that's a no brainer but that should not be something we should brag about what we should brag about is what we're doing here and now this year and how it went because that's how we can follow the progress and it's much more important what you do in the beginning of the exponential curve when you do in the end the end will you will succeed with the end if you do the right thing in the beginning so instead of focusing on criticizing all those net zero targets let them have that I mean most people will not be alive that are deciding those targets today anyway let them have that game of doing a lot of pledges in the future that's but instead we should focus on what they're doing here and now and we should help them to succeed of doing more here and now one thing that I kind of I I say something very similar so what what do those targets of you know we're going to go neutral carbon neutral by 25th year we're going to reduce our emissions by this by that time I often say you know basically they're telling us they're they're still doing wrong they're just going slower in the wrong direction which is if you know any because you know math and you because you know how the exponential function works it's basically saying we're going on the wrong in the wrong direction on the freeway but we've slowed down our speed we're doing less harm and and that type of thinking is very incremental and can never be exponential can never get us where we are and that's why exactly like you said this now really plays an important part because it's so small steps that we continually to take that are exponential steps of change now that eventually it becomes easier and easier and that exponential is is almost an automated growth of success and achieving those that humans have a hard time to comprehend so and that's really go ahead but I also think we need this target in the future when we have this we need to be 100% fossil free before 24 but what I think is that it's not something for individual corporation or individual companies to do those branches that would be I think that will be the role for the world government or the Paris Agreement to set that day after the year I don't know 2040 we will not use any more fossil fuel that is what we need to do and and and we could have all those companies and governments figure out their way of reaching that target but the target should be something that we have a global governments behind and if we can't get every country in the world agreeing on that target in the Paris Agreement let's build a coalition of willing countries and maybe also invite the corporations to actually set an end date of fossil fuel use that's the only way we're going to solve this crisis we can't like having all those soft targets proclaimed without any accountability behind we need a global leadership there but if we don't have the global leadership I mean that will happen in the exponential curve of change sooner or later instead we should focus on what we can do here and now and if we can't make the world governance to make set that target let us focus on what we could do here and now everyone could reduce their own carbon emissions you could start at home and the important with that action is not the emission cut you will do for the world that will be hardly noticeable but the important fact is what you do when you communicate it again communication is a weaponizer for climate action if I reduce my own emission with 20% and if I tell 10 people about how I did it and that it's actually something good I say money and I live a better life and they will do it it will create this wave of change and that is creating the exponential change so so everyone could could be a wave creator and that's very important to know everyone has the power to do something again against this crisis I love it I've got four more questions for you until we're until we're done so the they're they're one so during this time you've just experienced all sorts of things and we don't have time is growing I've seen it evolve and that but you have a no advisors come on board with Marco Rodzinski neck and it's amazing how the momentum is now even it's slowly starting but there's some other things I believe on the horizon and I was hoping maybe you could tease us some of the positive things we can expect to see from we don't have time some things you're working on some some positive and investments and things that that probably give us some more hope on how the growth and what we're seeing in the future yeah actually we had a really great start at 2021 we had this founding round round of searching for new investors to help us build what our platform and it was really concern about how we should succeed with that in the middle of pandemic because when you talk to investors is all about creating trust and and of course it's easier to create trust if you are in the same room and if you know each other and you can see and look and talk to each other but that wasn't a possibility it's the only way forward was to adapt and it has been a really really hard challenge to find investors and this is something I tell you because this is something I think that people looking from outside outside to the we don't time organization thinks that we are doing something that everyone loves to to invest in because what we do is really important the case is that most investors I talked to a thousand investors in three months I talked to a lot in all all over the world 950 says no because they are happy how the world works today they don't see any reason why they should invest in something that will play a huge role in our future society because they don't see that the society will change they are they will see what how the society works today and and we know the time platform is not for the society today that we know the time we are building the society tomorrow so an investor needs to know that they are actually part of not investing in a business idea that is tapping into a trend they are investing in building a new way of economics because we are going to build in this system where we're going to give credit to the ones that are doing the right thing and and discredit the ones that are doing the bad thing and that is a platform that needs to exist but we we are we have we haven't built this yet we are building it right now so the ones the 50 that have invested in us who are they I would say they are the dream investors that we really want on board because they are the ones that knows this that knows that the word must change that business as usual is not an alternative so we have succeeded to have so many really really important people with with so much more resources when money to support us and and it's really and and we're not doing this for them we're doing this together with them and that's a different kind of approach normally an entrepreneur is pitching to an investor and saying that you're going to be rich just trust me my pitch is actually something similar to this don't you believe in yourself what do you mean I mean that you're someone that has great competence if you join us we would create change in the world together and you will help us succeed and I believe you believe in yourself because you have a great ego if you're a board leader so that's the strategy behind the investors we have brought on board and that gives me a lot of confidence but I will still say it's very very frustrating that it's still 950 people turning an idea like this down because that means that they are turning a lot of other climate solutions down as well they don't understand the urgency of the crisis so we have a homework to do so that we next time we need more money we will have 50 people turning us down and 950 people saying yes but I think that's possible I absolutely definitely and if you go to if my listeners go to we don't have time.org they can see your list of partners you've done events with with Ted you've done events with the UNDP you've got different partnerships there as well as the Berlin school for sustainable futures is on there and many other good collaborations and partnerships that you've had over the years I expect we're going to see some great things coming from you for about 26 and the cops to come and I cannot wait until we see more of that from you I have this is the hardest question I have for you and it's really the burning question WTF which is not the square word although we have been saying that it's what's the future and even more so what what do you see is a world that works for everyone I see a world where where we start to listen to each other and a world where everyone regardless however you live or wherever you work for are are helping each other and I see a world where we have different values actually we need to we need to be much more a collective species we can't have this race where you only focus on yourself and your individual action and your ego we need to work together and in solidarity and we need to think that if I can help four other people I'm doing something good that will make me happy more happy when I just help myself but in a concrete way how we make that word happen I think we make that word happen by involving more people in the decisions and in order to do that we need to listen to people and we need to make communication as transparent as possible but we also need some some some basic rules of how we're going to live on this planet it's a hard question so I haven't prepared an answer but one concrete answer I have is that in order to make that word happen I think it's simple as this we must make it rewarding and profitable to do something good for the humanity and we must make it very very very very expensive to do something bad for the humanity and our environment I think it's as simple as that if you do something good for other people and for our nature you should get awarded and we will have all the system in place in order to succeed with us we're good that creating system that are rewarding actions the problem is that we're rewarding bad action as is yeah not out not all actions are good I'll just keep it to two last questions and they're really for my guests if there was one method you could depart to my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life what would it be your message very simple question time the most important asset we all have and everyone has to say is your time what you do with your time will decide if you're part of the solution or part of the problem what kind of work are you going to every single day what are you doing on your free time how are you spending your time on earth it's super important the most important action lies in how you spend your time and so many people are regretting on how they did spend the time when they are at death bed etc we know all that so spend your time wisely prioritize your relationship prioritize your well-being and prioritize doing something good for the climate if you do that you will you will be part of the solutions and you will have a much better life but this is of course not an easy choice because everyone can't choose freely on the kind of job they have or anything like that a full company aware of that and that's why it's so important that we that have the freedom we have a responsibility to use our time very wisely not for ourselves but for all the rest that don't have the possibility to choose how they spend their time I love it and it ties really to it we don't have time so that every every every moment and every action is very important but the last question is what have you experienced or learned so far in your journey your professional journey that you would have loved to know from the start that's a that's a different that's that's a difficult question I would say the most important learning is so many I would say but the most important learning is actually that it's new we think that it's we have it's a lot of differences between nationalities and between cultures etc but humans are really like we are so similar and what's different us is the values we have so so I think that values is something that I now understand is super important and it's really really hard to change someone values but it's possible to do it but it's it's hard and and the only way to do it is actually to have patience we we can't go too fast because if you go too fast with having someone changing their values you will get you will get resistance and and and you will not succeed so so I would say values is my lardom the importance of values and patience is important and that's a problem for me because I'm not a patient person well thank you so much for your time Ingmar and that's all I have for you today is there anything that you would like to tell my listeners or you didn't get to mention or talk about today that you'd like to leave us with yeah one thing maybe go to google play and app store on your phone search for we don't have time or visit we don't have time but or and sign up for for the social network where you'll find other people that want to solve the climate crisis and where you can work together and if you do that we will plant a tree for everyone doing it so that is something I was up perfect thank you so much for your time you have a wonderful day Ingmar it was been great bye bye bye


Hello, everyone, and welcome to the 8 a.m. to 8 30 a.m. session of the 2017 Open Simulator Community Conference. As a reminder to our in-world and web audience, you can view the full conference schedule at conference.opensimulator.org, and you can tweet your questions or comments to atopensim.cc or use the hashtag, hashtag OSCC 17. With this session, we're happy to introduce a terrific topic of creating case study educational simulations for in and out of world use. Our speaker today is Dr. Kay McClennan, and Kay is a professor of practice at Tulane University. Kay has been creating and using virtual world learning simulations in her online economics and business study courses since 2008. In particular, Kay uses student feedback to continually refine and expand the educational virtual world simulation she creates to use in her e-courses, to drill it down on which educational virtual world simulation students find the most engaging and most useful. Further, in addition to more than 10 years of experience developing and teaching online courses, Kay designed and directed an extensive two-year online course quality improvement initiative at Tulane University School of Professional Advancement. I'd like to welcome Dr. McClennan. Thank you, Meg, and thank you to everyone in the audience for your interest in educational case study simulations staged in a virtual world. As an overview of the presentation I'm going to make today, I want to discuss the affordances and mechanics of case study use, also detail the evolution of my case study use both in Second Life and OpenSim, provide the study findings for student reaction to in and out of world simulations, provide some how-to guidance for creating in-world and out-of-world case study simulations, and then provide the key takeaways and of course always the next steps. Starting with the affordances of case study use, there's greater engagement, students get practice analyzing problems, and in particular get practice making difficult decisions with ambiguous versus clear-cut scenarios. And then next, looking at my approach, I separate the case study scenarios into different segments and then use different virtual world stages for each segment. Also in-world, I use note card givers to provide the case study overview as well as the individual character views and motivations. And then finally, a key aspect of using case studies is providing students with discussion questions and in forcing students to react to more than one outcome. As you can see from the image on the screen now, my initial case study build was in Second Life using Todd Borsch's prim-based shop assistance. When it came time to update those simulations in OpenSim, one of the things that clued me into the need for updating them was a flip phone that was on one of the desks in the simulation. I elected to use NPCs, non-player characters, and in particular, I have been using Nora Nooks and Aak Ardbark's kit, and it includes a poseball script written by Anne Comie. There's also a copy of this kit in my speaker booth, number 22 on Expo Island, number 3. While updating the different scenario builds, it occurred to me that I have enough virtual world space in OpenSim to leave a second empty set build for students to act out their own versions of the case studies. Also of greater importance, it occurred to me that I can become the different characters and video clip these narratives for out-of-world use. Another option, one that I thought would be more dramatic, was to rig the mesh models that I leave out around my virtual world educational simulations to avoid the empty virtual world syndrome, but I understand that the rigging process is quite time consuming, and this expectation was confirmed by Marcus Llewell, who rigged the OSCC Hippo using not one but two different programs. Still, even though I was not able to take advantage of a more dramatic approach to case study use, my guess is that there's many others in the audience that do have the skills to rig mesh models. So next I want to talk about a student reaction to virtual world use, and in particular case study use, but I thought it's first worth noting how faculty and students have different onboarding challenges when it comes to virtual world use. That is, it's much easier to be a student touring around different virtual world simulations than it is to be a faculty member creating those simulations while managing a grid, managing avatar creation, managing avatar troubleshooting, and more. So again, as you might imagine, students find course related virtual simulations to be of keen interest. In terms of their specific reaction to a virtual world use or optional educational simulations, one student says, I think it's an awesome addition. I love the idea of real time discussions. Another says, this is my second experience in the virtual world, and I think it should be offered in every class. It makes the class more interesting. Another student says, the virtual world presentations were more interesting and caused me to want to read and learn, and these type comments and reactions were reflected in the comments I received on staging case studies in a virtual world. So next, looking specifically at student participation rates in voluntary virtual world activities, I find that about 38% of the students in my online courses express an interest in this type activity, but only 33% actually take part in these activities. So after updating and expanding my case study bills and usage, I wanted to find out how many of my students view my new and improved case studies to be of more keen interest and, more importantly, would motivate higher participation rates. So using a Likert scale for agreement, I asked students if they would be interested in touring in-world case studies, would be interested in viewing out-of-world video clips, dramatizations of the same case studies, or third and or third, taking part in acting out the different scenarios. My expectation was that I would find about 33% to 38% of the students would continue to be interested in touring the in-world simulations, while maybe some more would like to participate in the out-of-world simulations. Well, I'm here to say the findings startled me. I couldn't believe that the students expressed such a high level of interest, 70%, for both touring in-world and out-of-world. And I'll confess that I now wonder if my questions were poorly constructed. But I think the bottom line, the takeaway here, is that college students aren't interested in participating in virtual world simulations, and it's incumbent upon myself and other educators to figure out how to make virtual world simulations more readily available to college students and make them engaging and useful within the parameters of online or other face-to-face courses. The final finding here about students' interest in acting out the different simulations, while significantly lower at 46% of the students, really, quite frankly, I think that's a high number as well. So turning next to the reasons why students don't participate, or the explanation between 70% versus 33% of their actual participation rate, as anyone might guess, students say it's too time-consuming or they don't have time to participate. Also there is about 12% of the students, and 12% to 15% has been pretty constant throughout the years that I've been teaching within virtual world. But there's something that this particular graph doesn't capture, and that's the how much points or how much course deliverable credit students can get for participating in the virtual world. I have found that 5% of the grade deliverables in the course allocating that much to a virtual world is too little as students just don't feel like it's worth their time. And further, about 15% of the graded deliverables in the course being allocated to optional virtual world activities yields about the 33% that I experience now each day, each semester or course that I offer this type of learning. So turning next to a little bit of how to, as I said before, I use these little backdrop segments for each segment of the case studies that I create. And it's not much of a giveaway, but I made a little mock version and left this giveaway at my Booth 22. Again, I use Nora Nook's MPC kit, and after the segments are set up, the note cards are written, and the MPCs added, I find my content for the different backdrop sets from all around the different freebie shops and destinations in our hypergrid connected metaverse. On the screen I've included Leighton Majorum's article, My Favorite Shopping Places on the Hypergrid. You can find that in Hypergrid Business. And of course I want to give a plug for the Educator Common Shop on Wright Plaza and really all the shops on Wright's Plaza. So turning next to making out of world video clips for out of world use, when I assume the identities of the characters in my case study, I use Morph Box Pro software to morph my voice into different characters. This particular software package is fairly inexpensive, about $40, and it comes with 25 preset voice morphine options. For the actual video clip creation, I use Camtasia Studio, and this software package comes with or offers a one month free trial. What I do is take a screen capture image of the set that I'm highlighting and then draw a box around the character and embed the video clips in that right where the little arrow is in the image in my learning management system course. So in terms of the takeaways from both, you know, my research survey findings and evolution of case studies, most of the students in my college level courses, and this includes both traditional aged and non-traditional aged students, welcome the added engagement possible from virtual world learning simulations. Still students need more streamlined access to virtual world simulations, and I need to evaluate more what is the threshold for how much of the course deliverables will yield higher participation levels. But at the same time there is a lot of student interest, it appears that there's a segment of the student population, as I indicated before, about 12% that's quite opposed to this type of technology. So I'm going to stick a pin in this finding because I wonder if part or all of this segment of students could be influenced by peer pressure to participate in virtual world learning simulations. So for my next steps, I want to resurvey students to find out through different construction of questions, whether I wrote those questions right and could find sort of pinpoint which segment of students want to participate in world versus out of world. And also, and I sort of feel like a broken record in this regard, I feel as though we need viewer capabilities that can be integrated into our learning management system. Canvas as a learning management system that's growing exponentially in higher education includes a feature where external tools and APIs can be integrated right into the viewer. And I'm not sure how or this could be accomplished from the standpoint of viewer creators or maybe even jury rigged to be able to be included right in the LMS. This is what I think is going to really advance student use and faculty use as well of virtual world educational simulations. I'm going to stop there and hope that there might be a few questions and that we have time for questions. We do have some time for questions and I do have a couple already. The first one is from Alba and she says, when you say rigmesh models, do you mean the NPCs? No, the NPC kit that Nora and others have made available is so easy to use.  The mesh models, you would have to rig them and then wear them as an avatar. I hope that answers the question. Delightful had a comment and she said it makes her wonder about creating support for immersive learning digital literacies. She says it suggests more access to persistent digital learning commons that include simulation. I couldn't agree more. My whole focus working in virtual world is to figure out which types of simulations students find engaging and useful. Having and holding discussions in the world is a great option but when you're staging an asynchronous online course, students, it's very hard to figure out a time when either the whole class or even large groups of the class can meet in world. So students demand asynchronous types of activities and quite surprisingly, happily surprising to me, they do find individual activities like vocabulary note card, games, other types of simulations, 3D graphs that can move around with a puppeteer script, things like that to be quite useful. So it's all about figuring out how we can use this platform to the best advantage of our students. We have a question from Kony, basically saying is there a canvas LTI for VR? Not that I know of and I know that none of our current viewer singularity firestorm on look are able to be integrated into canvas. But boy, I'll tell you, this would be, this is the holy grail for those of us teaching online and in virtual worlds at the same time. If we could integrate a viewer into the canvas LMS, that would be tremendous. One last question from Sally, she says, is that kit open source and have you found that there are shareable, are they shareable for export to say homeschool teachers and families? Sally, if you get one of the kits and there's more kits from Nora that I found on the Saris Island in the Franco grid and I see something, I lost it track of it in the chat about Nora's region, how she has more kits there. I'm not sure if they're exportable because I had a hard time finding one that I could put out for folks to grab. But the Creative Commons license or whatever license is being issued on, it should be in the box and you can, I am Nora Malone or Nora Nook directly as well to find out. But the thing about Creative Commons licenses, I guess everybody knows this, is that while you can use it for your own nonprofit use in general, if you're talking about exporting it for something that you're going to sell, that's kind of a different matter altogether. So anyway. I just want to ask one last question here. We have from Bethany, she's asking, what do you say to faculty who express an interest but wonder about the time commitment that it is involved with something like this? In the past, gosh, maybe eight years ago, starting eight years ago or so, I started holding some different faculty workshops and I got some interest, but no sustained interest. But then recently, one of our faculty members used OpenSim, our grid in a contest at a conference and one second prize. And she had three weeks lead time to practice and use it. So I'm beginning to reassess my thinking that fact that it's two time consuming for faculty. But I do believe that there's so much content now in OpenSim. So many folks, the conference organizers and steering committee have been in virtual worlds for a lot longer than I have. So they know as well as I do. I guess I came into OpenSim about 2010 and there was very little content here now. That has changed and there's plenty of educational objects and, you know, sets already pre-designs. Yeah. Well, Dr. McLennan, I want to thank you very much for your presentation. It was very stimulating and I think give people a lot of ideas of how they can use the things that you talked about. And Meg, thank you. And again, thank you to everyone in attendance. All right. As a reminder to our audience, you can see what's coming up in the conference schedule at conference.opensimulator.org. Following this session, our next session begins at 8 30 a.m. It's the economy of appreciation and OpenSim. HG Safari, you've heard about it a few times in other people speaking. It'll be fun. Also, I want to encourage you to stop by all of our expo regions to check out all of our different presenters. And we'll talk to you in a little bit.