Amen. So Luke chapter 10. So this evening we're going to talk about a story that I don't think I've preached a whole sermon on before, but it's a story that, you know, Christianity today uses a lot and kind of misunderstands a lot. But before we even get started, let me just, if you have a red letter Bible, you know, there's a lot of red words in Luke chapter 10. Jesus is talking a lot here, but the Bible and really understanding, you know, the mind of God as the Bible shows us, especially in the words of Jesus, it's super important that we understand, you know, the balance and the personality and the person of Jesus Christ and who He really is. Because who churches today say that He is, is not true. You know, look back at verse number, before we even get to this story, look back at verse number 14 and number 15. Jesus here is talking to the disciples, He's sending them out to towns, to cities and He's saying, He's saying, look, He's like cities that don't, that don't receive you. Well, look what He says. I mean, He doesn't, it's not like, oh, cities that don't receive you and all, look what He says in verse 15. He says, and thou can pert them, just using an example of a city that just did not receive the word of God. Okay. I mean, look, isn't it true that some cities are more receptive and less receptive than other cities? And He's saying, and thou can pert them for the city that doesn't receive the word of God, for the city that is full of people that does not want to hear what the Bible says, does not want to hear what God has for them. He says, and thou can pert them, you know, I wish you would listen to me. He says, thou can pert them, which are exalted to heaven shall be thrust down to hell. Okay. Jesus Christ is saying to this city, He's like, it is more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah. He's like, He's saying, it is going to be worse for that city that doesn't receive the word of God than for cities that I've destroyed.  Then in the same chapter, we see a lawyer come to Jesus and saying, hey, you know, what do I have to do? And he talks about the two great commandments. He talks about love the Lord your God and love your neighbor. Look, every commandment comes under these two, these two major commandments. Every single commandment in the Bible from God has to do with either loving God or loving your neighbor. And then the lawyer says, well, who's my neighbor? And Jesus answers him in verse number 25. And he tells the story that is that is known as the story of the Good Samaritan. Now the Good Samaritan is used in Christianity today to just basically say that we as Christians need to just give everything to everybody no matter what, and just help everybody all the time. That's what, look, the Good Samaritan is what many churches base their missions on. This is the social missions of the, you know, the, the food kitchens and the giving away stuff to, you know, people that don't have, you know, poverty or, you know, whatever in this country is, is the Good Samaritan is used for this. Let's read the story of the Good Samaritan. First of all, it's a story. Look at verse number 25. The Bible says, and behold, so let's just, let's strike some balance tonight and find out what Jesus is actually telling us and how we should apply this in this strange society that we live in today, which is truly strange. Okay, look at verse 25. And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tempted him saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And he said to them, what is written in the law? How read is thou?  And he said to him, Thou hast answered right, this do, and thou shalt live. So like really there's two ways to go to heaven, folks, just keep the whole law or believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.  He's telling him, look, this is just like the rich young ruler, very similar to what Jesus is doing here. But he willing to justify himself. See, this is the problem, right? And Jesus knew this because Jesus is God. So Jesus knew that this man was prideful and arrogant and wanted to justify himself. So Jesus is basically like, okay, just keep the whole law is what he's telling this guy. But then he tells a story. He says, in Jesus answering said, a certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among thieves which stripped him of his raiment and wounded him and departed him and departed leaving him half dead. So Jesus starts telling a story. First of all, turn to Matthew chapter 25. Before we get into this, let me explain that this is a story in the Bible. This is not a parable. Okay, so there's a difference between parables and stories in the Bible. Look at Matthew 25. Let me just give you a couple small examples just to prove this right to you. Look at Matthew 25 and verse number one. The Bible gives many parables, which is basically just these analogies of the kingdom of heaven or the analogies of salvation. Look at verse 25 or verse one of Matthew 25. Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened unto. So that is telling you right there that this is a metaphor. This is something that's an example that is to picture what Jesus is talking about. Likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom. Down to verse 14, you see another one. It says, for the kingdom of heaven is as a. So you use these words that you can identify parables in the Bible. Now a typical, a good rule in the Bible is to not base doctrine on parables, but to base doctrine on clear statements in the Bible. That's why I'm showing you how to point out parables here in the Bible, because a lot of people will just take parables and they will just make whatever they want out of parables, which is pretty easy to do. Some of these parables are pretty vague and they're pretty, you know, the parables were supposed to be vague. This is why we're not supposed to base doctrine on that. Anything that is hard, important doctrine will be represented in clear statements in the Bible. Like, let me think of one. Not of works. That's pretty clear. Right? That's pretty clear. Like, the wall is white. Not red. Right? Not of works. These are doctrinal statements that we can hang our hats on. Not on parables. Okay, go back to Luke 10. So we're seeing a story. Just like in Luke 16, we see a story of a man that went to hell. So it's important to understand the difference between the parables and the stories. That's all I want to point out there. So first of all, what do we see here? We see a man who was an Israelite. This man was of the nation of Israel. He was beaten. He was robbed. And he was thrown in a ditch, half dead. Look at verse 31 of Luke chapter 10. Luke chapter 10, verse 31. The Bible says, and by chance there came down a certain priest that way. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. So the man in the ditch is an Israelite. So the question is, who is my neighbor? Is who this prideful lawyer says? So an Israelite passes by another Israelite that's in need of help, and he keeps walking. He passes by on the other side. Look at verse 32. And likewise, a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him and passed by on the other side. So here we have two men of the same, you know, nation of the same, you know, same, what do you want to call it? Nationality that passed by this man in the ditch and don't help him. But then a foreigner comes along. But then a certain, but a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion on him. Now look, this just doesn't, isn't any foreigner. This is a Samaritan here. Okay. If you remember, you know, in John chapter four, the woman at the well was a Samaritan. Jesus comes up to the woman at the well. So you have to remember who were the Samaritans. So the Samaritans were of the Northern tribe of Israel. The Northern tribe of Israel was overtaken by the Assyrian Empire. And they were intermixed with the, you know, this is why there is the lost 10 tribes of Israel. There is no more. They were just intermixed and there was no more tribe. So they were people that the lower tribe of Judah, the lower nation of Judah, considered to be not of the nation. And they were a mixed people. And they were just, they didn't hold the same religion. And they were just kind of outcast. That's why the woman at the well in John chapter four said to Jesus, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but she said, she's like, why are you even talking to me? She's like, Jews, you know, Israelites, they don't, they don't talk to Samaritans. I'm a Samaritan woman. She's like, why, you know, why are you talking to me? What do you have to do with me? So we see that the Samaritans and the Israelites at this point, they're not together. Yet this Samaritan comes by and sees this man in the ditch and he has compassion on him. Go back to Luke chapter 10. Look at verse 34. He has more than just compassion. He says to him, he, and he went to him, bound up his wounds, poured oil, pouring in oil and wine, set him on his own beast and brought him to an inn and took care of him. So he, he helps him. He gives him medical, medical care. He treats his wounds and then he goes even further. He brings him to a hotel, takes care of him. On the morrow, he departed and he took out two pens and gave them to the host and said on him, take care of him. And whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. Which now of these three thinkest thou was neighbor unto him that fell among the thieves? So here, you know, and then he said, then he said, of course, the lawyer says, he that showed mercy on him, then Jesus said unto him, go and do likewise. Notice how Jesus didn't really answer the question here. I'll get to that at the end. But the lawyer said, who is my neighbor? And then Jesus tells this story and he says, who was the neighbor to the man in the ditch? So I'll get to that at the end. But the point is, is that there was a man that was in trouble and he was helped by someone who you wouldn't have thought would be someone that would help him. The two people from his own nation just walked by this man. So as we look at this story tonight, as we look at the story of the good Samaritan and we think about this in our lives in our nation today, in the society that we live in, even the city that we live in today, you know, we have to ask ourselves, you know, the same Jesus said in the earlier part of Luke chapter 10, the city that doesn't accept me, they will be cast into hell. You know, it would be better for Sodom and Gomorrah than it would be for that city. And that same Jesus told us this story about the good Samaritan. So the question is, people take this story of the good Samaritan and they just run crazy with it and say, you know, Christians just, because we're Christian, we need to help people all the time, no matter what, no matter who they are. That's what people will say. And look, people think that about us too. I'll get to that in a few minutes, but people think that because we're Christian, that we're just going to help anybody at any time, no matter what. So let's get some biblical philosophies here tonight on who we should help, who needs help according to the Bible. Let's look at some biblical philosophies. Turn to 1 Timothy chapter 5. Let's first look at, you know, the Bible, the Bible talks in 1 Timothy chapter 5, talks about specifically who the church, like Jesus Christ Church, who they should support. It's talking about financially, who they should take care of financially. And there's some very specific criteria in 1 Timothy chapter 5 on who the church should support. So let's start there, because there's a structure for support that the Bible lays out. The Bible knows, look, that Jesus said the poor will always be among you. Look, there's always going to be poor people. And look, people will need support. So let's find out what the Bible says about who needs that support. Look at 1 Timothy chapter 5 and verse number 9. The Bible here is talking about widows. Someone who has lost their husband, who does not have, you know, and the Bible, of course, defines the husband as someone who is to provide for the family, take care of his wife, take care of his children financially. Look at verse number 9. The Bible here is telling, you know, it's kind of filtering out even widows. Let not a widow be taken into the number under three score years old. Three score is three times 20, 60 years old, having been the wife of one man. Well reported of for good works, if she had brought up children, if she had lodged strangers, if she had washed the saints' feet, if she had relieved the afflicted, if she had diligently followed every good work. So the Bible here is saying that the church is not to support, it's just talking about widows here, first of all. So the church is only to support widows if they're over the age of 60. And not only that, but if they basically have a good reputation that they've been married to one man and they have a good reputation of living a Christian life is what the Bible is saying. It's not saying follow every good work like they've never sinned. I mean the Bible is not saying that, but it's saying like this person needs to have a good name. This widow needs to have a good name. But what about the younger widows? Look at verse 11. But the younger widows refuse. For when they had begun to wax wanton against Christ they will marry. This is saying that the younger widows they need to just get remarried. So if a 45 or 50 year old woman loses her husband, then what is she supposed to do for support? She's supposed to get remarried at that point. The Bible says in verse 12, having damnation because they cast off their first faith. So they were having problems where these women lost their husbands and they weren't getting remarried and they were starting to just cause trouble. They were starting to cause trouble. And with all they learned to be idol, you know, this is a common theme in the Bible by the way. This isn't just women. This isn't just widows. If you're idol you will begin to cause trouble in your life. Okay? But tattlers also busy bodies speaking things which they ought not. So here are these younger widows they should be getting married but they're not. Instead they're going around causing trouble. Everywhere. They're gossiping. They're saying things they shouldn't. I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give not occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully, for some already have turned aside after Satan. This doesn't mean that they're like possessed. This just means that they're doing what Satan wants them to do, not what God wants them to do. So he's explaining here not only, you know, hey, there's some troublemakers and here's why it's happening. They need to get remarried and just get on with raising children. And then if they're over 60, if they have a good name, good reputation, the church can support them. That's what the Bible is saying here. Look at verse 16. If any man or woman that believe it, that means the saved, we're talking about the church, saved people, have widows, let them relieve them. And let not the church be charged that it may relieve them that are widows indeed. So here we see something super important in verse 16. The Bible here is saying that before the church is to come in and support somebody, it is up to the family. It says if any have widows, meaning if there's a widow in your family, it's the family that should support them before the church is what the Bible is saying here. Family first is what the Bible is saying. You know, maybe we shouldn't destroy the family in this country and we would have less people that need help in this country. But he's saying family first, then the church. But if it's under the church, it's under this strict criteria. I mean, look, living in the society that we live in today, that was some pretty strict criteria. 60-year-old and above, women only. And notice, notice by the way, how this just addresses women. You could say that this is sexist right here. You know what? Because it is. Because it is. The Bible is sexist. Whatever that even means today, because look, the Bible specifically says that men and women are to be treated differently.  Things that are different are not the same. You think that's a really simple statement. People should recognize that today, because we've taken logic and just thrown it out the window. Things that are different are not the same. Men and women in the Bible are to look differently. They are to act differently. They have different roles. They have different roles in the family. They have different roles in the church. They have different roles. They have different roles in the world. They have different roles. Men, you know, men are not supposed to act like women. You wouldn't think you would have to make a rule like that. You know, I mean, California, men are not supposed to be effeminate. That's, I mean, the Bible has to point these things out. When you read Leviticus, you're just like, man, God's like, he had to point out everything. Everything. Everything. Or he knew that we would go and do it. So the question is, back to the Good Samaritan. Who needs help? The question is, we see 60-year-old and above widows who have a good name, a good report. They deserve help from the church. Widows are to be helped from their family, then from the church, if they meet that strict criteria. What about people that don't meet the criteria? Because most people, you have to understand, don't meet that criteria. Okay, look, if there's a 60-year-old widow that needs help, that has a good name and has lived a Christian life, this church will help her if she needs help. Because that's what the Bible says. But what about the people that aren't category like this, like women under 60? Or like, how about this one? All men. Sorry, guys. All men. What about that? You know, what about these people? Look, do you know that people are constantly trying to scam us out of money at this church? Like, almost every day, to some degree. I'm getting contacted through email, through phone, or through text on probably four or five times a week. That's no exaggeration. Just on people just wanting money from this church. Why? Because we're Christians, so we're going to help everybody. See?  They know the good Samaritan that they heard in Sunday school, so that means that Christians help everybody no matter what. But that's not what the Bible says. I mean, there's some elaborate schemes, too. And every now and then, like if I'm driving somewhere, like, I'll listen to some elaborate schemes just for fun. You know, like one time somebody called, no, there was the recent one that was really elaborate was somebody called me and I have my phone number on the website. I have my phone number on the invitations. It's my personal phone number. And somebody called me and I have a North Dakota area code. And somebody called me and said, yeah, this is so-and-so, and I'm stuck in Fresno, and I'm from a Baptist church in my not North Dakota. And I'm just stuck here and I need money for a train ticket to get my family home. And I'm like, oh man, you know, what church are you from? And he gives me some name of a church. And look, I know every church in my not. You know, I probably know most people at a lot of Baptist churches in North Dakota. And-or in my not North Dakota. Anyway, I'm like, you should have your pastor call me. And sure enough, 15 minutes later, some guy saying he's a pastor of a Baptist church in North Dakota that doesn't exist calls me on the phone. And I'm like, did you know? You have a church member stuck in Fresno. You know, I'm like, you should help him out. He only needs like $42 or something. I mean, he was like some weird, obscure, small amount of money. This guy's trying to just get me to like give him money, right? So-but I mean, the point is, like, this is constantly happening because people think churches are just out there to just hand money to everybody because of, you know, we're supposed to be good Samaritans. We're supposed to be good neighbors, right? It's just-look, it's the same thing with people on the corner. It's the same people with people holding the signs. Anybody that asks you for money in California today, look, this is the reason we have so much trouble, you know, particularly in California right here. All right? The homelessness problem. Okay? Now, look, this is where we get not politically correct here. All right? The homelessness issue in California, the reason that it's an issue is because homelessness is not a problem. Homelessness is a consequence. Homelessness is a consequence. Go to Proverbs chapter 23. The Bible, you see, what people don't understand today is that the Bible is a book of consequences. That's what the Bible's about. The Bible's about consequences. What you see today with homelessness and people trying to treat homelessness is they're trying to treat something that's a consequence, that the Bible says is a consequence. The Bible, almost on every page, is nothing but consequences. Even from the fact of the gospel.  That's a consequence. If you don't do these things, then the Bible tells you how to live your life. The Bible tells you how to raise your kids. If you don't do these things, consequences, consequences, consequences. The Bible is all about consequences. And here's the thing. You can't just treat consequences and think that the truth is going to go away because it's not going to. Go to Proverbs chapter 23. I'll just give you a couple examples. I mean, we go on all day about this because it's on literally almost every chapter in the Bible is just dealing with what God says and consequences. Nothing but that. Look at verse 29. This is talking about, you know, not being sober or drinking alcohol in this case, which is, you know, it's a pretty big deal in our country today. Look at Proverbs 23, 29. And just look at all the consequences in this one verse. The Bible says, who hath woe? You know what that is? That's a consequence. Woe. You know what woe is? That's trouble. You know what that's saying? This is talking about drinking alcohol. This is saying, if you drink alcohol, you're going to have trouble in your life. Who hath what? What's the next one? Who hath sorrow? You know what?  You know what that is? That's sorrow. That's sadness.  The Bible is talking about consequences here. Who hath contentions? Oh man, if you drink all the time, but I want to have a lot of friends. No, you're going to have no friends.  Who hath babbling? You know what that means?   You'll literally get to the point where you drink alcohol and your brain doesn't work anymore.  You know what that is? That's a consequence. You know you could actually get to the point where people drink so much for so long they can never talk right again. They just, they slur and they talk. I mean, maybe some of you have met people like this. They've drank for, they drank for so many years and they drank so much that they've just become like constant babbling. They can't, they can't put their words together. They're, they're constantly just, they just get angry quickly. Look at, it literally just alters them permanently. People think it's harmless, but the Bible here is saying, no, no, no, no, no. Big consequences. How many have we read so far? This is one verse in the Bible. Whoa, sorrow, contentions, babbling. Who hath what? Wounds without cause. Here it's saying, okay, it's going to destroy your mind. It's going to literally destroy your body.  You know you get enough wounds? You know what happens?   Yeah, maybe it's talking about outside wounds, but eventually you kill yourself from the inside out. It's talking about physical consequences. Who hath redness of eyes? You know what that means?  Everybody's going to know you're a drunk. Everybody's going to know, look, this is going to show on the outside. This is not going to be, this is not going to be an inward sin. Okay, look, one, two, three, four, five, six serious consequences in one verse. This is the Bible right here. The Bible is just, it's a book of consequences.  I'm going to give them a home when the homelessness, the homeless part, is a consequence. It's a consequence of what? Of sin in their life. That's the problem. Look, the Bible is, we'll go to 1 Corinthians chapter 6. We'll do one more, and then we'll just move on with the point I'm trying to make. But look, the point is covering consequences is never going to work. And covering consequences, helping people cover consequences is not something that we as Christians should be part of. Look at 1 Corinthians chapter 6. Look at verse 18. 1 Corinthians chapter 6, verse 18. The Bible here is talking about another specific sin. It says, flee, flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body, but he that committed fornication sinneth against his own body. You know what the Bible here is saying? It's talking about the sin of fornication. It's talking about the sin of going and having physical relationships with different people outside of marriage. And the Bible here is saying is that unlike other sins, this sin will destroy your body. I read a headline. The reason I went to this example, I just read a headline. And look, I read the same headline single year. And it said like STDs at all time high in the United States. You know what that is? That's a consequence. It's a consequence of not following what the Bible says. Look, does anyone speak against fornication? I didn't click on the article, but I guarantee you that the article would focus on we need better treatments, we need better healthcare, we need better no, we need to do what the Bible says. We need to follow the Bible. Just covering the consequences going and educating children in school that fornication is okay if they do it a certain way. No, it will make it worse. Why is it all time high then? If all this stuff is going on and they're focusing on just oh, you know, treating this and making it safer or whatever. Look, it's getting worse and worse and worse and it's going to get worse and worse and worse. Because they're just trying to cover consequences. And the Bible is all about consequences. So they can take the homeless and they can give them free hotels and free phones and free drugs and free everything, but it will only make everything worse. This is what the mayor of every city in California needs to hear right here. All you're doing is making it worse. Why? Because you're taking away, you're covering the consequences. And the Bible is based on consequences. The wages of sin is consequence, is death. Look, and here's the thing about the Bible. Here's the thing about the Bible. You don't have to be saved. You don't have to believe it. You don't have to even have read one word of it. It's true. And how do I know? Because it's going to happen. Because these consequences, anybody can see it happen. Look, here's the proof. There's 160,000 homeless people in California today. Keep covering consequences. Keep doing these things where you give free this, free that, free this, and try to cover up all the consequences. And in five years, there will be many more than 160,000. Guaranteed. Why? Because the Bible is true. That's why. Turn back to 1 Timothy chapter 5. Removing consequences will never work. Because all you are doing is attempting. You're not fixing anything. You're just covering sin. And all that is, is throwing gas on the fire. Because the Bible teaches that the only thing that works is consequences. Is consequences. Go back to 1 Timothy chapter 5. Look at verse number 8. Look, not having a biblical family will create these problems. Look, 1 Timothy chapter 5, verse number 8. But if any provide not for his own, especially for those of his own house, he had denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. Look, you know what? The Bible here is saying is that the family should be the first line of defense for the widows, for the people that need. Then the church, but the Bible here is saying that if you don't have a proper family with a man providing, he's like, look, there's going to be, there's going to be consequences. There's going to be consequences. You know what? Getting divorced will lead you to poverty. You know how many people I have met in my life that make serious amounts of money that have gotten divorced once, twice, three times, and they are broke? Because it's a consequence. Look, and this is not to beat up on people that have made mistakes. And this is what people don't understand that make all these policies. Like, oh, you're mean. You're saying that that people shouldn't be given a place to live. And people shouldn't be given a free phone or drugs or whatever. But the point is, you know what I care about?  I care about the kid who hasn't gotten married yet. I care about the kid who hasn't gotten on drugs yet. You know, when I was in the old, when we were in the old building, there was this one kid, he was the biggest problem that I had. And this kid, he was 25, 26 years old tops.  This kid did things I couldn't even say from the pulpit. I dealt with this kid for two years.  You know what I'd like to do? I'd like to start talking about consequences and start preaching the Bible to people so the kid that's 15 doesn't end up being that kid that's 25 and 10 years. Because the people that are preaching the same remove all consequences from everybody. They're the wicked ones because all they're doing is driving kids down this road. They're by taking away these consequences. Turn to 2nd Thessalonians chapter 3. It's about stopping people from making the same mistakes. It's not about beating up on people that are in a situation that have got divorced. It's like, hey, maybe we should preach the truth so our kids have happy marriages. So our kids don't go down these wicked roads. Look, 1 Thessalonians chapter 3. Look at verse number 10. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you that if any would not work, neither should he eat. Oh, are you saying we shouldn't give out free food? Yes. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that families and churches should be able to look at people who deserve it. And I say everybody else should get hungry. All these men out here should get hungry. And you know what?  Maybe then we can save and hold another generation and start taking that 160,000 down. Because people won't make that choice because they're like, oh man, there's consequences here. Not like, oh, I'm going to be given free everything. And there's no consequences. Look, don't tell me that... Look, here's the thing. The consequences are there no matter what. Don't you tell me that this isn't a hard life that these people are living out there right now. Many of us have made this comment. Like, 110 degrees and they're out there and they're living under a bridge and all they can think about is what they have to steal to get their next drugs. You think that's an easy life? How about we save the ones that haven't gone and made those decisions by just covering up consequences? It's an abandonment of biblical morality. Look, a kid raised in a proper Christian home. Do you want to know what the value of a good biblical church is? This is it right here. A kid raised in a proper Christian home in a good church preaching the Bible, preaching things that, you know what, the Bible says that a lot of people don't want to say anymore with a mom and dad. They just don't become a drug addict. They don't go out and do heroin. I've never had this conversation with my kids. Hey son, don't do heroin. Never said it ever. All we have to do is drive by somebody screaming at a stop sign.   Yum! Look, it's not going to happen because you know what, they see consequences and they hear the Bible and they have people that grow and build them in a church that supports them and brothers and sisters and friends that they can see that build them to be strong, to understand that the Bible is right. Look, there's an answer. Look, they understand all this destruction of the family is wrong. A 12-year-old gets that. A 12-year-old understands that. Now you add in public school. You add in public school. You add in all the perversion. You add in all the sick stuff. I don't even know what they're teaching anymore. I don't even want to know. All this indoctrination. But I do see that states are trying to pass laws to stop, you know, they're trying to pass laws to stop parents from giving like 12-year-olds transgender surgery. Like they're trying to stop it by passing a law against it.  Because the Bible tells us the family. The Bible gives us the structure. The Bible tells us, hey, you want to protect kids? Do it this way. Or there will be consequences. And unfortunately the children seem to suffer first all the time. What consequences is what the Bible teaches us?  Because they understand the Bible. They see the consequences.  I mean, that's what is happening. And we cover up sin. And all we do is we will just make more sin. That's why it's not working, folks. That's why all these policies from, you know, maybe the the mayor of Fresno should read the Bible. Maybe the mayor of Fresno should get saved, listen to some Bible preaching and understand.  This is such an easy one to solve. Just, you know, and save some people. Be a hero. Imagine, be a hero politician. Just listen to what the Bible says. The answers are all right there. Let's go back to helping people. The Good Samaritan. So most of these people that we see in our country today, look, real poverty exists in other countries. It doesn't exist here. I'm talking about people that literally just like, look, there's help-wanted signs in every single window. I've never seen in 22 years of being out in the workforce. I have never, ever, ever seen a time where more people are trying to hire where they just can't find anyone to work. I've never seen it. 22 years. But look, there's real poverty in other countries. We go to the Philippines and there was men that we would talk to that were literally sleeping in the park because they traveled several miles into Manila to look for work. They didn't have the money for a hotel. They didn't have the money to say, look, that's poverty. Where there's no work and you have a man that wants to work. So there's real poverty that exists. It just doesn't exist here. Instead, we have this country that's just trying to make it worse. But here's the most wicked thing. There's two things that are wicked about the homeless situation in this state especially. It's number one, they cover up people that may need help. Because you have to be so cautious and with the vast majority of them being just addicts, you know, people that are not sober, looking for drugs, looking for alcohol, whatever. Look, you have to be so cautious. They cover up people that may actually need help. And also, they create an apathetic society. They create a society that looks past people. They create a society of the priest and the Levite, so to speak. They create a society of people that will literally walk by anything. I remember the first few weeks that I was in California in 2016. I had just gotten my job and I some of the guys at work took me out to lunch. We went to a Togo sandwich shop, just a couple blocks from the office. We walked over there. We went to the sandwich shop. We walked outside the sandwich shop and there was a guy just laying on the sidewalk. And what did we do? I mean, it was some guy just passed out on the sidewalk. We just stepped over him and we just kept going. And I remember thinking to myself like, you know, that is something that would have never happened in North Dakota. In North Dakota, the Midwest, whatever. And look, I'm not saying that North Dakota people are so much better than California people. I'm saying that you just get apathetic to this type of thing because you don't see it. If somebody was laying on the sidewalk in Bismarck, North Dakota, everybody would be running up to him being like, are you okay? What's wrong? You would sit on the side of the road with a flat tire or in a snow bank or something for literally the first or second car that drove by. Somebody would stop and help you because it's not an apathetic society. But these wicked bums have created an apathetic society. That's one of the worst things about it. But look, we should not become apathetic. We should not become apathetic. So here's some practical rules. Let me just give you some practical rules that I have for my family. And you can take them or you can leave them because look, this is something that needs to be navigated in California. In a population, but if you would have a population of bums and scammers move into the Midwest just like they are here, look, the same thing would happen to that society too. It's not that they're so much greater, it's just that they don't have this population that's made everyone applicable. So here's some practical rules. First, for my wife, for the women, for my wife, here's rules for my wife. She's not to like stop and help people on the side of the road like never. That's a rule for my wife. I mean, I'm sorry, I didn't ask you to tell the story, but my wife picked up a hitchhiker one time in North Dakota. My wife will never pick up a hitchhiker again. I'm not going to talk to you about the conversation that ensued after I found out my wife picked up a hitchhiker.  I mean, it was in North Dakota in the middle of nowhere, but still. So my wife doesn't pick up hitchhikers. But women, my wife is like, just call me. You see something, just call me. Call 911, just call me. It's not like she has kids to protect. She has herself, she's the weaker vessel. Sorry to offend you ladies, but you're weaker. She's the weaker vessel. She has kids to protect. She is not to just stop and help somebody on the side of the road. All right. Men, here's kind of my rules. Here's the thing, you can tell when somebody's in obvious trouble. You can tell. I mean, if there's something like, notice that this guy, the Good Samaritan, didn't stop and visit a guy that was holding a sign. The guy wasn't standing there holding the sign saying, I need money, you know, or God bless or whatever. You know, the guy didn't have a sign. The guy was literally like half dead in a ditch. All right. It is easy to see when people are in obvious trouble. I'm talking about like car accidents, talking about like we've been stuck in traffic before and you see people in obvious, I mean, we've been on the grapevine in traffic for like four and a half hours. You can find people that are in obvious trouble there. Their car breaks down, they have little kids, whatever, you know, help people like that. We should always be like watching for those situations. You know, we even drove by the church downtown in Fresno and I knew that this was a situation. I knew what the situation was. There's a guy in a wheelchair sitting on the sidewalk, slumped over in the wheelchair, like an old man and I just pulled the car aside. I'm like, I know what this is, but I just can't ever be the type of person that's just going to drive by a slumped over old man in a wheelchair. And so I go up and I see the guy and yeah, sure enough, he's got a whiskey bottle down there and you know, kind of shake his wheelchair and he's like, ah, you know, and so he's not dead. So, you know, there we go. But the point is, you know, there's risk to it and the men, you know, the men should take the risk helping somebody on the side of the road with a flat tire through whizzing traffic. Look, that's just, we should be those people. We should be those people. Actually, somebody just don't ever let this society of wicked slothful bums turn you into an apathetic person is what I'm trying to say. Alright, somebody actually helped my wife this last week. My wife had some car trouble and she was about 40 minutes away and before I got there, I mean, I left work and I was on my way as fast as I could, before I got there, there's somebody that had helped my wife and kids. They had helped my wife, they had helped her, you know, put some oil in her car, they helped her get to a mechanic place and by the time I got there, you know, the guy was gone.    He said, he's like, look, he's like my wife. He's like, I do this type of stuff and he's like, my wife kind of gets upset at me sometimes because it can be risky and that's kind of true. It can be risky to be helping people that you think are in obvious trouble. I don't think it was risky to help a car full of Baptist ladies in, in, you know, skirts and dressed appropriately. He probably knew he wasn't in danger for his life in the middle of the day in, in that situation. But the point is, yeah, it can be risky. He's like, but you know what, if I die, you know, helping somebody or whatever, he's like, that's just the way it is, you know? So we should be those types of people. But unfortunately, the society we live in, we have to be very careful. We have to be very careful because there's a lot of scammers out there.  I just can't even believe people go to this lengths to try to get money out of people. But that's, that's the way it is. So don't ever let the wickedness take this from you. Take this, this, you know, this, this love that you should have towards your neighbor from you. I mean, in conclusion, the Bible gives us a good structure of support for a society, okay? The biblical family, the church for support. And by the way, the government's not mentioned when it comes to supporting people that need support. You know why? Because it doesn't work. If it was the best way, the Bible would tell you, right? It doesn't work. But think about it. What do we know? What do we know about the church? In the church, we know if, you know, brother so-and-so needs help, we know if he needs help because something happened to him that was out of his control or whatever. Or we know if he needs help because he's in sin. We know that. That's why it's supposed to be the church. That's why it's supposed to be the family because they know what the government doesn't know. They don't care. That's why they just waste money. But the point is with the government is all the help that they give is all it's doing is helping people sin. And you as Christians need to recognize that as well. Yes, be a good Samaritan. If somebody's in an emergency and needs dire help, men help them. But the point is don't be using stories like the Good Samaritan to be helping people who are in sin that are dealing with, if somebody is dealing with consequences in their life, that is God's way of correcting them. And that is what would do not help people to their hurt. You know, the Bible doesn't say in Romans 6, 23, the wages of sin is death unless the government steps in. No, the wages of sin is death and the government steps in and tries to cover up the sin. And it just gets worse and worse and worse and worse. The government and all the help that they get, they just make the situation worse. The Bible is true whether the government believes that or not. And the Bible will continue to be true. So all that being said, people still get into trouble. So watch out for the man in the ditch. But if he's in there because of his sin, you know, just follow what the Bible says. All right, let's bow our heads and have a word.


Azerbaijan will help Ukraine in mine clearance. Azerbaijan will provide Ukraine with a mine clearance vehicle and conduct training for sappers. This became known during the meeting of the Deputy Head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine Bogdan Trapeyati with the Ambassador of the Azerbaijan to Ukraine Seymour Madaliev. The sides discussed issues of humanitarian demining and Azerbaijan's assistance in this direction. Ambassador Madaliev announced an increase in the size of the aid package to Ukraine. He added that Baku joins the list of countries that will conduct trainings for Ukrainian specialists in the field of mine clearance. In addition, the Azerbaijani side announced a new package of assistance to Ukraine which will include a mechanized mine clearance vehicle Ukrainian media reported. More than a year and a half after Russian forces invaded Ukraine, landmines have become one of the most daunting issues for the Ukrainian counteroffensive. With Russian forces having laid down mines across broad areas of Ukraine, it is now the most mined country in the world. While there are ongoing efforts to remove the mines, also referred to as unexploded ordnance, the full scope of the situation will likely be unknown for some time as the conflict continues. However, according to data already collected by the Ukrainian government and humanitarian mine clearance organizations, the direness of the situation may last for generations.


Good evening and welcome to a conversation about truth and truth-telling in the future. We deserve My name's Tim waters and as a long month as a volunteer for long month public media I have the the privilege really of hosting and facilitating conversations with leaders policymakers experts activists in our community Longmont area folks on topics of relevance and interest at least that I think are relevant and of interest to the community Tonight truth and truth-telling is of interest not only in Longmont. It's a it's a it's a question and an issue literally around the world and When we have the good fortune tonight to have a chance to be in that conversation with folks, you'll recognize who have Significant roles in this community as truth-tellers and I'm going to introduce them to you in just a moment But just a little bit of context for this conversation Early in the pandemic in March, April and May as a volunteer for long public media I interviewed over 70 Longmonters in 65 or 66 interviews and asked them three questions the third of those questions was What's your preferred future assuming we're going to come out of this pandemic at some point in time? What's the new normal you'd like to see the future you'd like to move toward and help create? All the conversations in this series on the future. We deserve are based on the answers to that third question and tonight The focus on truth and truth-telling Was part of the preferred future of one of our panelists our guests tonight? And that's David Barker and I'm going to introduce David to you in just a minute But in this conversation with dr. David Barker is Scott Converse Scott Gonna wave it folks. I guess we've got your name there Scott Converse who is Has a has a pretty impressive resume, but just the most recent Activities of Scott was a it was the founder along with Macy May Founder of the Longmont Observer, which was at one time our online news source founder of Longmont public media founder the tinker mill involved in a lot of Of activities in Longmont people recognize Macy May Editor of the Longmont leader as you heard Macy was a founder of the Observer Longmont public media and now Editor of the Longmont leader our online news source John Valencamp a name familiar with probably everybody in town as the editor of the Times call in the Loveland Reporter Harold reporter Harold. Thanks John. Thank you and Rosanna Longo better A host of a podcast and a number of programs on KGNU community radio so You all are joining dr. David the reverend dr. David Barker Who is the pastor at central Longmont Presbyterian church just across the street here from the Longmont public media offices David and I know The I know if the world knows that you have a background in media yourself You were on the faculty in the University of Texas system as a professor of media So you come at this from a variety of perspectives. I want to start with you. This was your preferred future In response to that question. What were you thinking about at the time and and maybe I'll maybe I'll start with this Right in a recent recent editorial written by David Brooks David Brooks wrote There will probably have to be pastors and local leaders who model and admire evidence reason Wrestling with ideas, right? He was talking about the importance of truth And here we are in Longmont with a pastor and local leaders What are the ideas we ought to start with tonight? well I mean the challenge in talking about truth is that we are obviously taking on this huge existential issue That I think as we all know has assumed a particular importance The last few years so much so that for me at least when I think about a preferred future First thing I think about is truth, which is why I answered the question I did the way I did when you and I talked the first time Um, so a couple of thoughts to start us off Let me begin with this I think we know how divided we are as a people And president biden correctly in my view has been putting a real emphasis on the importance of unity The challenge it seems to me is this How do we achieve unity as a people if we can't even agree on what constitutes the truth? And if you've seen anything these past few years, I think we've seen That despite the rhetoric about truth and there have been a lot of rhetoric about truth People I think are really much more invested in power and privilege Than they are in the truth or more to the point They're invested in a version of the truth that protects their power and privilege and Maybe we've just arrived where post-modernism has been taking us all along So because all truth is relative we can't agree now on a single truth about much of anything And yet Relative subjective truth has been around nearly as long as human beings have I think what's different now And this is why I think it's important that we have gotten voices with us this evening from the media What's different now is the media and social media in particular Where so many versions of truth can not only be created But they can be shared they can take on a life and a power of their own Really to a degree and to an extent unlike anything we've seen in human history before So that not only can everyone have their own truth But they can propagate that truth exponentially Among thousands and millions of followers which makes it even easier For people to abdicate their responsibility for knowing the truth To what's currently trending in their news feeds that reinforces what they already believe Last thing i'll say It seems to me and this won't be surprising given that i'm a pastor That the best hope for us as a people Is willingness to embrace transcendent truth Truth that isn't a function of individual experience or power or privilege And obviously as a follower of jesus the source of that truth for me Is jesus But i think it's safe to say that most of the world's great spiritual traditions And a fair amount of secular philosophy for that matter Assert the existence of truth that's above and beyond human experience And i should also say that i don't see faith and transcendent truth And faith in science as mutually exclusive So I'll stop there Oh, there you go. It's a start so panelists Conversation group we'd like this to be like a cafe like conversation to which we will invite listeners to call in 40 minutes to the hour So if you're out there watching and listening and you'd like to participate You're invited to to call in anybody want to pick it up from there? well I will agree. I will I agree with uh reverend biker and that social media tends to give People a sense of power and That that they wouldn't feel otherwise something along the lines of If I could equate this to To walking down a sidewalk versus driving a car when you're walking down a sidewalk You're not going to yell at the person in front of you to get out of the way But when you're in a car and you feel a little bit removed and empowered You're more likely to honk your horn. I think that Social media tends to empower people in a way that they wouldn't have otherwise Tends to allow them to speak in a way they wouldn't otherwise and also gives people this sense you Can't remember the specific word, but it reinforces biases So I think it gives people this idea that what they're saying is right right for no other reason than the fact that Everyone's hearing it Is that confirmation biases you're talking about confirmation bias. Yes. Um, so all of you David what you do and everybody else in this conversation You all live in a world where you have you're held to standards There are pretty well articulated Standards for your professional work That you have to recognize and to which you have to hold yourselves accountable. What what are some of those? From the from the experience of journalists and for for layman like me for the rest of us What should we know about those standards and and the rigor that you have to apply to your own work To establish truth in what you do I think that sources where you get The information is extremely important and I also agree with john because you know social media Gives the power but one of the things that also social media gives Besides the power to an individual is that they put people in an echo chamber So you only receive Messages from people that think the same as you think and see the view see the the world with your same Lenses, so that is the problem that I see and also When I think about truth, I think about language language for me is number one Yeah, I you know, I have to agree with uh rizana as well sources are are extremely important You know one of the things I find to be quite interesting especially during the pandemic And how divided people are on specific topics And that power that they find in social media You start to find People's biases even against those sources. So, you know, it becomes somewhat difficult as well when you're you know, okay I'm meeting with a city official to talk about this topic That is a wonderful resource But then you have an entire group who's also extremely biased against Either the official or the government or or the topic and so then they run with their own truth Maybe commenting on the article or or whatnot and it becomes, you know, somewhat discrediting in some circles You know, just even though the article is well written and well researched it it becomes a little major hurdle Previous in previous lives. I used to I used to build these kinds of systems um, and we were trying to democratize information And give people power and what we ended up doing was we created uh systems that allowed people Like you like like you had I had heard someone say is that it creates a echo chamber, but the problem there is that there isn't um There isn't a component of trust And I think that this is the big issue here is trust I think that what John and what may see You know what rose the van and what all of you guys have got is you have got Links to local people who understand who you are and what you are And they they over time learned to trust you and what these social media platforms that we've built have done is they have They have broken that trust And that is why we're seeing the divides that we're seeing today uh, why when I got back into I had been in in uh technology based silicon valley based media building uh for a long long time And what I really realized about four years ago Why we started the Longmont observer was that we just didn't see that trust anymore and That we had to do something to get out of the cesspool of next door You know the cesspool of facebook and it's a cesspool I mean it really is I hate to use that word, but it's that's an accurate statement and the only way to do that is people like These folks here they have got to create recreate that trust with the local community Shows like this what we're doing right now. I think it's exactly the kind of thing That's required for people to start understanding what their community their local community is about because it all starts locally And then builds from there and that's what we've lost And now it's time I think we and I think we have a shot at it I think we have a shot at with the new administration in the white house and With um, you know people like us trying to make these sorts of things happen at a local level I think we got a shot. So that's what I'm hoping we can see more of here one of the predicates There are a number but one of the predicates for this whole series of conversations Is that we need to reset whatever happens, you know the the dialogue at the national level We need to reset it at this level, right? um, and then and then Model how it might roll up and replicate at other levels But even at this level, um, I'm just curious Scott you made this connection between truth and trust And I I know because I know I know the people in this conversation. You are all trusting Not my role in this conversation is to facilitate not to really participate But in addition of being a volunteer You and some of the folks who watched this know I'm also elected official And uh, and it's been an interesting experience for me, uh for someone who uh, I think I've been trusted until I get elected The local city council and then I'm not trustworthy. Um, how do you how do you make this nexus? um, um, what are the possibilities for making the nexus between truth and trust and and do we have to make that nexus? um to move forward to to live in a world where it's less dominated by Confirmation bias or or the echo chamber and the positive feedback loop that just reinforces what we what we already believe I think it's important for one for people like us People who work in the news and newspapers or other media To know it and then our own biases We have them I've worked in this business for a long time I've not I've never I've never met a person who didn't have some bias And what I ask people who work for me to do is Know it admit it check it at the door If you don't know you have it You're not prepared to deal with it So I think knowing our bias is important and speaking to the public and saying yeah, I'm a person like you are So I have to admit I have some bias I have to deal with it and I have to hold myself to some standard that helps me to Step away from that bias Admit mistakes what we make them I think there there's very little admission of mistakes or Admitting of mistakes that happens these days everyone I think already has determined that they're right And and you can't prove them wrong. I think a willingness to be proven wrong It goes a long way toward toward pursuing truth You want to talk a little just a little bit more about The standards that to which You hold yourself even as you check your biases at the door Well, for you or for anybody else in the conversation. I'll let someone. I'll speak first Well, I can tell you that lpm along my public media.  We have to pay attention to the drone that um that require that we we have a certain level of of Community involvement and it's really community standards. I think that That it comes down to what is appropriate for that community And every community has a different set of like what's what's okay in new york city is probably not going to be okay in kansas city so So for us, it's really largely about figuring out what the community what's acceptable to the community and Meeting those standards that fit into that particular community that said there are just definitely journalistic And i'll let you know john and macy and rosanne to talk more about these is that these are there are distinct Things that these guys have to do john has been doing this for decades. You know, he understands deeply um what is required to speak the truth and That's an essential part of what local media provides that that that social media does not And that I think is where it has to start with guys like so john and you know, macy Why don't you guys tell us what you know, what can you talk about on the radio? what can you talk what what are the types of things that that are um Allowed and not allowed to be published in the times call it in the leader um as far as what is allowed and what is not, you know, the leader kind of looks at it at um You know, we try to invite our community in we try to hear the community's voices. Um as far as You know having a section for that for like opinions and whatnot and making that label separate But as far as what we do, uh the thing I try to Reiterate with my team is you know, again just as john said check your biases at the door and try to to report as fairly as possible That you know, as he said it happens We make our mistakes as well But the other side of that is that we try to make sure that we're Also listening to our community from whatever side maybe we did not represent and trying to figure out how how to better ourselves Continuing forward. So I think I think part of those standards is making sure that you can Listen as well as um report Um when you do when you do make a mistake and you don't get it right John or was on it? Yes, um, I just want to you know say that I think Just like macy that it is extremely important to You know own your mistakes, but also to remember that a story always Is important to see who's telling the story, you know, where's it coming from? And I have to say that you know It's unique the work that we do in KJNU community radio. It's It's unique because we really are community So the producers and the people that produce the shows the public affairs They are from within the community and when it is within the community Then the stories really represent in a different way. They have a voice by it's by themselves They have the power and then if you you know, I'm trying to put together the social media content Then when you give them to the public and you see how they get Excited about it and then they share it around. That's when you realize you're doing a really good job So it's really community based, you know, and KJNU has been doing this since 1978 We are community power So we really understand that if somebody's going to tell the story It needs to come from a point of view or We prefer from somebody from within so that we can trust that story source And the storytelling of that story Tim In in listening to my colleagues in what they've been saying and talking about uh, truth and in trust um I'd I'd be interested in hearing them talk about the extent to which um relationship Is involved in in the truth and the trust Hearing about community. I mean that's that's that's part of this. I think but I know then In my experience in the work that I do So much of my ability To speak the truth and to be trusted that I'm speaking the truth is a direct result Of the relationship that I have built with the people to whom I'm speaking and talking um and living and working with and so I'd like to I'd like to hear my colleagues um, you talk a little bit about The extent to which relationship plays a part in this for them. Are they mindful Of relationship do they depend upon relationship? What kind of relationship? Just whatever they might have to say about that You know I'll mention go ahead go ahead. I'll mention two things I'm sorry go ahead Macy I'm sorry Flip the coin uh, so Yeah, David, uh, for relationships for me are extremely important that you know when uh, scott and I uh Well when I started out at the the observer That was really kind of my role and then I transitioned to that into loma public media as well and um That has really been a fit of being even here at the leader and I think part of the reason why I have this position um, because you know having those relationships with our community members with our leaders, um Really allows you to to have a very serious conversation and then not just be awkward or them even feeling like I really don't know who you are. I don't know how to say this. I don't know what you're going to do with it um, but building that that relationship so that when you say, okay, this is what I'm going to To write about and them knowing that what you are Are going to do is what like what you say you're going to do is what you're going to do And then that just further builds that can that trust so that when you go back to those leaders later on um, or those community members and they can say, you know what that person was was um Completely honest with me and I can continue another conversation and maybe expand further and Really allows you to to tell more of these stories than just uh, that top surface level that you might get just asking somebody for the first time what what their Thoughts are on a particular topic john. I'm sorry. Yeah. No, I will echo that I think Uh, Tim, a few minutes ago you asked about our you know, what standards do we have?  It's the spj code of ethics society of professional journalists It's really long. I'm not going to go through it. But among those is Be slow to make a promise But if you make a promise keep it I think uh, macy's correct in that if you do what you say you're going to do Whether it's something someone wants to hear or not if you if you follow through as you should That builds trust Another is is transparency. I think it's something I know we could do better at which is revealing How do you make decisions about what you do and why did you decide that? That's another and uh, something that the david mentioned Which is one-on-one conversation. This is not possible in every situation.  I don't but Spending time with that person even if it's a five or ten minute phone conversation I find goes a long way toward building trust in part because They can converse with me as as it's just another person and I can Um, I'm no longer just a name or someone who's behind this wall Uh, so that goes a long way. If that's a slow process, but it certainly works It comes down to say what you do and do what you say And it's like john and macy you guys have experienced this directly as as have I when something weird is going on in the city um, and In the mayor wants to get a particular point of view across They call one of us Right. I mean john you've gotten calls from from the mayor may see that you have I have Uh, and other members of council and other members of the city itself And from that we're able because we have those relationships those local trust based relationships We're able to suss out what is or is not accurate and make a make a reasonable judgment call and write the story Uh about what's going on in our communities So I think that's I think that you're absolutely right, david It's it's all about relationships and it's and it really again we get back to what we talked about earlier It comes down to local You know, who do you know locally? Do you trust that guy you trust that woman? I mean, do you are it really is essential that we rebuild all of that stuff that we figure out a way I don't know how to do that yet. I've got some ideas, but you know There's got to be a way for us to rebuild this otherwise. We're going to have this 40 percent of the Of the country hating the other 60 percent the other 60 percent kind of shaking our heads going We don't understand for the next 10 years Or longer and that's not going to be fun. So it's time to start working on that Well, I want to I want to come Come back to this division whether it's 40 60 or you know, whatever that because we are a seriously divided country And truth is an important part of this. I just want to reflect for a minute Having having spent a number of decades actually doing research on leadership And and what I heard you talk about in terms of transparency Reliability humility would would be three of what you would want to teach people In a leadership program, right to be effective Be predictable in terms of doing what you say you're going to do and transparency and What you think and how you arrive and in the decision-making process And I know that's true for you. I know that's true for david I'm a member of his congregation And I know what that means to to one who follows that leadership So it's just interesting to hear Experts in the media Articulate your standards and that are so easily translated into leadership expectations or standards in in other venues Let's let's let's stay with just for a moment this idea of a divided country We've heard a lot in recent days since the election about Reconciling and the need to reconcile as a country And then the response to that is you can't reconcile without truth And then we have some pretty good examples in the world of truth and reconciliation As a process for national healing Any thoughts about about how we deal how do we get to reconciliation? Is that possible without truth? And and what does that truth look like and what is the responsibility? What are your responsibilities and? Mine in others of the community To advance the cost of reconciliation through truth telling or sharing Did a fair question to this group? I want to hear what david says about that David has a point of view on this I know No, I think I think that's a that's a very fair question And it won't it won't surprise you that to hear me approach this from the standpoint of confession I think I think it's a necessary first step um in truth telling and reconciliation is people's willingness to confront their own complicity um in Creating this environment that is so toxic In terms of truth that has been so toxic in terms of working against rather than working to build a community We've got we've got to be willing to confess our complicity in that because I think until we are willing to own our own role in this It's just too easy to keep pointing fingers at and blaming other people for being where we are Um, I think we have all played a part in us being where we are as an as a world as a nation and as a community How do we call that out though? I mean, how does how does a newspaper or a radio station or a tv station? How do we address that Without being judgmental How do you how do you address the the need for confession? Yeah, I mean, how can we help that happen without Passing judgment because that's not what we're supposed to do what we're supposed to be doing is stating the facts, right? Here's the facts you make the decisions What can we do though to help make that happen? I think you have a phone call tim. I do but let's let's finish this thought One is the first thing that's I mentioned earlier what go ahead go ahead. No, please go ahead y'all go ahead I was going to say one thing as I mentioned earlier is we really need to admit our mistakes I you know, I Admitting an error a large one or a small one Goes along in my opinion goes a long way toward gaining trust and toward helping change the tenor of conversation And anyway, that's a starting point for us There's more I could say but I'll let others try and end That's a good starting point. You know accepting That you are not always right But I think also that trust you earn it you earn it by showing you know by really showing up and really listening and But it's relationship.  I'm pretty sure you also do Struggle in having to provide a that time that we many times don't have because News is so fast, you know, it's just everything that goes so fast that if you don't put it out there You you lose the time the timing also So that's what I think the struggle is Around truth also because what is true? A Right now can change so fast How much reconciliation needs to occur at local levels, I I think long mon is a pretty exceptional community I think anybody Who's affiliated with long mon believes that But we're not perfect and I wonder I wonder in the various roles I play in the community including this one What are the what are the needs and how do you approach reconciliation through truth at a local level And I and you all play a huge role in this and it's part of what you're I know you're talking about already And I and maybe our caller will they'll have an opinion on this for a question But but I want to see before we get there Shaquille. I know you're in the queue See if there is there just a response to what does this look like at this level? you know tim I think part of that is And kind of jumping off of what rizana was saying is potentially even taking a little extra time I think You know throughout the course of history The idea that news needs to happen super fast that news needs to be out and you know And in lightning speed Often lends us to Situations where you know we get caught and not the full You know not telling the full story or or missing something important Or maybe even getting something wrong You know people I think in general and it Propagates even further on social media. They just they want they want what they want when they want it and I think sometimes A role we can play this the media is taking a step back and and you know saying okay Well, we know you do and we want to give this to you, but we also want to make sure it's right and maybe creating a slightly different expectation or culture around how we provide our news versus You know what the expectations have kind of grown to be I would like I would add one thing is that I do think that the media has a An obligation To call out things that are simply flat out bad for the community Like this this insurrection in the capital you see the newspapers in the cities that those senators Are from that still back to it even after it happened calling for the resignation. I mean loudly calling for the resignation of those senators and these are the editorial boards of those newspapers and I think that that is taking a Community stand about what is good for that community and I think that that is something that we can do We I don't think we're as good at that here as we could be Because it does, you know take You're going to take some heat You might even take some losses in Advertising and you know subscriptions But the reality is that it is better for the community and I would love to see us do more of that When there's a lot of money involved in running at what a business is as opposed If you've got if you're thinking about your profit versus doing the right thing journalistically sometimes they get mixed up and More so now particularly in the newspaper side because of what's happened over the last 20 years with newspapers Losing out to the social media people who've sucked all the money out of the marketplace So I think it's really important that we stand up and say, you know, this is what's right Uh, and when it's really really obvious like hey, these guys are destroying our country. Let's call that out Any other comments on this before I invite Shaquille into the conversation? Thanks Tim So Part of what I feel like is the challenge of telling the truth is you know What's the saying a lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth while the truth is still putting on its shoes Um, you know the and like a lot of people I've become obsessed with misinformation ever since the insurrection at the Capitol and This conversation reminds me of many interviews that I've heard since the election itself Where there were great interviews with county clerks who were dealing with election misinformation people who In their personal capacity as members of the church or as people whose kids you go to school with together Are very trusted and respected in their community, but in their official function You know conspiracy theorists have led them to believe that they are You know members of the deep state trying to overthrow the the Of supposedly fair election So how do you tell the truth if people aren't willing to hear it? How do you tell the truth if people won't believe it if it's already in line with some if it's not already in Line with something that they believe Um, do you do you have to impose the truth on people who would rather believe something that's comfortable to them? How do you do that? Shaquille, thanks for your contribution again And uh, let me see who would like to who would like to respond to Shaquille I think you say it over and over again I mean, basically Keep repeating the truth over and over and and don't change Um, if obviously it has to be the truth, right? So, you know, just when you write a story you keep a thread, you know When you're telling a story you keep a thread over time I think that that's an important part of this I think you're doing that right now tim with what these shows are You know, you've got threads that runs if you look at your what your shows are Because i've been watching you do this now for a year or so when we started doing podcasts with you a couple years ago You have a thread that runs through these things. This is your shows are not standalone They have a thread that run through them and that's what we're doing here I think that that's what the media needs to also be aware of and to carry that thread of truth through all that we do Well, I may come back and comment on what we're trying to do here But before I do I want to see if anybody wants to to follow what scott had to say and respond to she keel I I agree. I think you keep repeating the truth. I suppose the word impose Imposing the truth sounds correct. I guess yeah, but um You know some of what I see and what I do is I as you know, I deal with people who write letters to the editor They call the tc line and and based on where they're coming from they are going to see facts differently My challenge is to see whether they're facts or actually facts And for some people it takes them back and forth like hey, where'd you get this information? Why do you think this? Here's what I found. Do you see this and it is a it's a slow process. It's a teaching process almost as to how to find Uh, I how to find facts. I don't want to keep people from sharing opinions. I certainly don't want to shut those down but I but It is a it is a continual process. It's not going to end. I don't think I don't think we're going to get to some point where People suddenly see this light and everyone agrees on the same thing even the facts but but I think that It is a very very painstaking process to go over and over with people like To say look here. Here's what actually happened and here's how you can find out that actually happened It's a teaching process other comments I think I I think I agree with john. It is a teaching process and you know That's kind of what scott said. It is continuing to say the truth and sticking by it and I think the other thing that media Also has to do is you know Continue with their thick skin more or less. I mean, it's a very difficult position to be in when you um, you have done your due diligence late john has said, um finding out the facts figuring out what the story is and then Putting it out there and and you're the one who takes the hits So, you know, it's it's a difficult position to be in and be really easy just to say Oh, no, everything is however someone says says it because you can get some really heated arguments going on but um, yeah, I think it's You know sticking with it and and keep trying Yeah, so let me let me circle back just for A few seconds here on yeah. Yeah, I'll get to the color. I just I want to Follow up on your observations scott about what we're what we're trying to do with this program and in um threads um The first of these first episode if you will of this uh season Of the future we deserve uh was on the topic of Redefining the role and responsibilities of government In the future we deserve and it was grounded in the pandemic and response to the pandemic It began to turn during the conversation toward the issue of trust and and how do you how does government build? You know trust in those who are governed and and we ran out of time before we got to that part of the conversation um The program that follows this one and I'll do a little invitation promotion at the end of this conversation But we're gonna we've got one whole month two sessions scheduled on justice and equity in the future we deserve And um, that'll be followed by the what's what's is there a common good in how we protect it and my rights and our responsibilities a whole series of them all growing out of the Responsive to those questions and those interviews One of the things that that I hope we can do with these conversations is model what it how people build on one another's ideas And that's what you've done tonight um Nobody's trying to In there. No nobody's wanting one upping someone else There's nobody trying to hurt one another with an idea bash one another with an idea But to connect and um if we can model that Right, what does it look like for adults to be in conversation in real dialogue with one another to learn from one another To listen to one another Um, I think that's partly how we reset the the conversation at the local level So I hope that I hope that continues to characterize the program as it moves forward now. I'm gonna invite the caller mr. Justice Hey there I hear a voice, but I don't hear The caller Are you there? Well, I think we have a technical Technical problem Let's see if the yes Are you there mr. Justice? Yes, I'm here There you go. Welcome to the welcome to this conversation Thank you I can't Am I on now? Yeah, you are you are. Yeah, okay Okay, my my uh first of all, this is a very informative uh program and The couple of the questions I have is about the truth And you know how important it is, but what if local folks don't believe that The longmont later times call cpr Are can and the people city council are telling the truth There people have a different uh Viewpoint so how do you deal with that if if we can't even agree on what the truth is Good question. Thank you. Anybody want to pick that one up? I would like to pick that that one. Sure goes on. I think that the best way to do it is to ask the hard questions to ask the hard questions and I want to pause right now. So just to make a reflection and invite a You all to think about this idea that I in a way commented with macy before the importance of what media literacy is To really understand what the the obligations that we media have and then The other communications that come from let's say the government you get a communication You get information from the city council, but then you have that's our obligation To ask the hard questions And that's when the thing gets a little You know difficult, but we must keep on doing it So what are your thoughts about this idea? I'm super happy to be part of this conversation I feel it really Honor, but I really wanted to put out this idea that we have to talk about What media literacy is really all about because I think we get confused and our public also gets confused with what social media or communications are with the difficult and hard work of reporting and doing the job So you want to talk a little bit more rosanna about uh media literacy Kind of give a little bit of a definition or perspective on what the it is in this case Yes, because I think it goes together with what truth is and what trust goes around To understand that one thing is to get a communication and a source where it is coming from and the other one the work of Really asking the hard questions to get to what we want the truth I give you an example the truth about vaccines If you don't register right now, you don't get in a list And you don't get the vaccine and that's happening to our community They don't have access to register because they don't have computers because they don't have Email because they don't have a way to get there and even though they have 17 years old and And the government the city council all their counties doing everything to get them That's not going to happen. What is it that we need to do? So then you ask the card questions and you find the people telling you that they are not getting the vaccine Because they are not getting the chance to register Why so you continue asking the questions until you find the truth or that truth that serves the people Is that the like the the asking the why question seven times? Is the college still on I'm listening. Can I ask you a question? Why do you think that why do you think that the local media and the City council and these guys are not telling the truth or not you but why do you think that people think that well? It's political philosophical differences in this country For instance, I'm very much right at center. Okay, and the longmont leader is very far to left Times call. I think does probably does, you know, a fairly good job. Although I do think that they are liberal bias there's two different political Philosophies and I don't I don't ascribe to The longmont leader a lot of the city council resolutions Are a lot of a lot of the times call things. I have a different viewpoint and so do others like for instance the election Let's not I'm not going to get into the shard or whatever but 74 million people voted for donald trump And most of them aren't happy and have a different viewpoint than you. So the call for unity is not going to happen if you keep Delivering and treating Conservatives and republicans who knows who voted for trump with disdain like you have them Hmm. So that's that's another Questioner statement. I'll have thanks. Justus. Let's let's let's get into this one and then see if we have more collars Um, but that's fine. I don't want to take it all Yeah, scott. This is really good. Thank you for calling. Yeah You want to pick it up from there scott? Yeah, I I'm just trying to figure out. Um Because this is the issue, right? He is he is exactly Nailed down precisely what the issue is the fact that the longmont leader in his mind is uh, is uh, liberal is First for a guy who who who who reads both liberal stuff as well as conservative stuff The leader isn't even remotely liberal compared to the actual stuff out there. That's very progressive I mean the leader is very middle of the road And that just tells me that we have people that are Far to the right and I think that that's what's happened. You've seen this country. I mean if you look at obama obama In 1972 would have been a republican Based on his policies And that's how far we have shifted the the republican party for instance has shifted Also, bernie sanders, you know, he actually in in europe they consider bernie sanders a moderate He's not far left extremists in europe I mean and so this guy's the mr. Justice's idea is absolutely right. It's perspective. What what point are you coming from? So that's the real question. How do we get it so that he can trust? macy and her paper john and his paper Rosanna and her and her uh station I'm uh, the help, you know the that we're going to be doing the news here at some point I think with longmont public media. Why should he trust us? You know, I would love to have this conversation directly with him and have him participate With us on this stuff to build that relationship with him. I think that's how you do it. I think you build a relationship I know that macy's focused on that She's spending a lot of time lpm's, you know, longmont public media is very much focused on creating Opportunities for the community to participate with what we're doing and what kind of shows we're creating We have wednesday night member meetings and anybody in longmont can be a member. It's free We're going to have Where you can find out what lpm is about every monday So I know that the times call does stuff like this. I know that kg and you does stuff like this So I think it's really talking to our community Opening our doors to guys like mr. Justice and saying tell us what we're doing wrong And let's see what we can do to build trust between each other Macy or john either one of you want to respond to the To the to the caller. Yeah, I uh, I don't want to get too deep into this now But mr. Justice, I would welcome you to call me my number appears on page two of the patient You also can email me my email should appear on that page. If not, it's j volum camp at timescall.com I talked to a lot of people I think I recognize your name because you're one of the people who comments on our facebook posts At least I think that's you You know, I and I would I would ask a question similar to what scott is asking Which is why do you think we're this? And then look at the the whole of what we do Differentiate between what do we do? We're a local newspaper and I think sometimes people who read us I I talked to a woman a number of months ago Who insisted that I worked for the washington post even though I insisted to her that I do not work for the washington post so I think sometimes there is a confusion about who I really am I would I'm a guy who lives here in lawnmower Uh, and and you are welcome to talk to me. Uh, so I feel free to I'd talk to you Macy come Oh, yes, I was going to say I echo that same thing with um, john I've in fact, I think I've invited, um, mr. Justice on several occasions to To chat with me personally, um, but I open that to everyone Um, anytime and my my email is macy at lawnmontleader.com And uh, just send me an email and and I'm happy to share my phone number there as well. Um But yeah, I'm open to all conversations and I would love to learn more about what, um, the conservative right would like to to hear more about because That's a conversation. I've been waiting to have for a long time I would I would also bet you that the progressive left would like to have that conversation with you too I would love that conversation as well. But I get that from you a lot They think the same thing about you that you're you're you're too far to the right They do as a host of this program and as a as a member of the community I I hope that one of my aspirations is that we could frame Conversations in a way that regardless of who you voted for or what your ideology is Uh, we could we could stand it long enough to to agree on what is or is not factual or what is or not, you know The truth and I and I understand, you know, I made reference earlier in our conversation prior to going on the air that um What we used to believe that you know, the the truth will set you free and the and the facts speak for themselves Um, I was advised by a mentor years ago that that's no longer true The fact the truth does not set you free and the facts do not speak for themselves. So Uh, if that's a reality, how do we frame? Our relationships and maybe that's what it is David so that we can At least enter into conversation without assumptions about one's Veracity or trustworthiness. We have a caller marsha. You're in the queue Welcome here. I am. Can you hear me? We can indeed I was interested by the other caller because my perception of the leader is that it is Studiedly neutral and that the times call is slightly to the right of center and I am wondering if what we aren't seeing here is an expectation among some or all of the public of journalism hat confirming one's bias And that if journalism doesn't confirm one's bias It's perceived as opposing and I I'd like you to just talk to that idea Real quickly I think there's a lot of truth in in what in what the Colleges said. It's interesting to me. It's it seems as if the conversation has shifted a little bit So that instead of talking about truth, we're now talking about perspective And there's clearly a relationship between those two But one is not necessarily the other And I think this is part of the challenge of dealing of dealing with truth is is identifying when we're now talking about perspective And and what do we do with that? How do how do we have that kind of a conversation? So We got about two minutes before we need to wrap up Any last observations here? I would like to add one last thing and it is about language again Why because I am the equity bilingual reporter at KGNU And I am honored that people come to me and I go to them and they tell me their stories and their points of view with The power of the language Spanish and when it comes with that power I honor that And it also comes with the obligation that we have to respond to our community when they tell us What's going on? That is the truth for them. So I just want to put that out Rosana, thank you. And and you you had the last word in this conversation other than my wrap up Let me let me say to each of you how much I appreciate You're carving this time out of your schedule I know the kind of contributions you make to this community that that are Extraordinary and this is just one more. All right. This is a small one in the midst of the big ones you make But you honor me and this effort in Longmont public media And I and I know you honor the community by coming together to have this conversation So I appreciate it to the viewing audience and we obviously had a couple people viewing tonight if you like the program Tell your friends and neighbors if you don't like the program. I'm easily I'm easily reached through Longmont public media I'd love to hear what it is that we can do to make this as relevant as meaningful as possible for the community To the viewing audience. I want you to know that two weeks from tonight February 10th We will kick off a two-part series with an outstanding a group like this an outstanding collection of experts advocates An activist on the topic of justice And equity in the future we deserve So if you're interested in those topics, it'll be an equally invigorating conversation and I want to close it out this way Um, there's a presumption behind this program That is really captured by a post and I don't know the blogger or the blogger in this case Seth Godin, but somebody shared the the the post with me And um, and he writes this But here's the predicate For at least one of them for this program. We can choose to commit To a recursive and infinite path that elegantly creates more of the same We can choose possibility We can choose connection We can choose optimism. We can choose justice We can choose kindness We can choose resilience And we can decide to take responsibility each leads to more of the same So I hope what we do for this through that this these conversations is um address Responsibility and kindness and thoughtfulness and in a recursive way that we get more of the same Thank you. God bless you and to the viewing audience We're going to welcome you back on february 10th to listen and participate In a conversation about justice inequity in the future. We deserve february 10th 6 p.m Right here at longmont public media