Live from New York City, it's theCUBE at Big Data NYC 2014. Brought to you by headline sponsor, Juan Disco, with support from EMC. Mark Logic and TerraData. Now, here is your host, Dave Vellante. Welcome back to Big Data NYC, everybody. You're watching theCUBE. theCUBE is our live mobile studio. We go out to the events. We extract the signal from the noise. You gain some dollars here as the CTO of Wendisco. Long-time CUBE guest and CUBE alum. You gain good to see you again. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me, Dave. So we were talking offline here. You've been shuttling back and forth from the Javits Center. What's the vibe like down there? What's the traffic like? What's the conversation going on? Traffic's a mess. New York's a little bit harder to get around these days. But the crowd at the Javits is really good. A lot of customers with active deployments to production, which is a vast difference from a year ago. We are hearing concerns from customers that all relate to taking their applications to full-on, 100% uptime available solutions. Yeah, when we first started broadcasting at Hadoop World in 2010, five years ago, we had our fifth year celebration of Hadoop World last night. And the crowd was the T-shirt crowd, nose rings, you know that whole deal. My understanding is it's creeping up closer to my age. You're seeing the enterprise.it folks and the business people. So we get to embrace Hadoop, aren't you? Absolutely. We're seeing the enterprise.it folks and the business folks put different values on specific features. And that's changing the nature of how Hadoop evolves because the vendors are listening. I mean, make no mistake about it. Both Hortonworks, Cloudera, and other distro vendors are all tuned to what the customers are saying. So the feature set that Hadoop is evolving is improving, I think, for the better. Yeah, and innovation's happening quickly. You know, the book on open source has always been, it's great, it's wonderful, kumbaya, but it's really slow to develop. And it's risky and all those things. You've heard them. It seems to be changing. It seems like the pace of innovation is quite rapid given all this investment that's going into. I agree. I mean, the cathedral and the bazaar was written in the day of Linux, and today's open source world is vastly different, partly because of the money that's going into the Hadoop companies, and partly because the Hadoop companies have taken a different approach. It's not GPL, it's Apache licensed, so it's more of a free-for-all environment. I think the old model for open source may not necessarily apply anymore. The Hadoop is a new generation, a new evolution of open source software. You're saying that the GPL was more of a free-for-all, and now it's more structured than the Apaches providing the leadership. Quite the reverse, actually. I'm saying that. I just understood that. What did you mean by that? By that, I mean, the GPL still forces you to contribute everything you do back to the community while the Apache license does not. And the original premise was that the Apache license would cost people to take the code and not put things back. But that hasn't happened. Every company in the Apache ecosystem desperately wants to put their source code back, wants to put their source and offerings back into core Hadoop. So it's turned into this free-for-all environment where open source companies are competing with proprietary companies to improve Hadoop in different directions. But effectively, isn't it not achieving the same result? Or sorry, couldn't have GPL have achieved the same result? That's what you're saying? It's, um. Or was it people were afraid to jump in because of the GPL? The GPL scared a lot of people off, whereas the Apache license has opened it up. Proprietary companies look at it and go, we can take the stuff and build our stuff and sell the software. And a year or two down the line, realize without community support, it's really not worth much. So because the GPL concept was not only free of charge, but free to do what you want, as long as you get back and what you're saying is the Apache license says free of charge, free to do what you want with it, and you don't have to give it back anybody says, but we're going to give back anyway. We have to give it back because our customers are telling us if it's not supported by the community, we won't pick it up. Next thing you know, your idea of taking from the open source community and not giving back has changed and you want to be accepted by the community. So this is all new and different in the open source world. And it's resulted in an explosion of innovation and an acceleration of innovation, right? So if your strategy is to try to stay ahead of the open source curve, it's harder and harder to do that. That's correct. Now, you guys, part of your strategy is to stay ahead of the open source curve. So give us the update on what's going on when disco, active-active, global distributed namespace, you know, 24 by seven. What's the, what's been the uptake of what you guys are doing and you've been working on some interesting projects. Let's get into that. Right. So the uptake has been phenomenal. The financial customers just love us because they believe that this is the only way to really comply with regulation. And having 100% active-active with full utilization of all resources is just very exciting. That's our current product. We have a new exciting product that's coming out from the labs that I run. This is exciting because at the core of our company, we are a replication company, strongly consistent replication. So we looked at it and we've seen a lot of customers with different Hadoop systems struggling to integrate all of those. The product we've come up with is a unification product, a single namespace across different distributions running in different data centers. You can point your data in just pipeline at this new namespace. You can run your analytics against it. It's strongly consistent. So everywhere in the world, you can have Hortonworks distro in one data center, Cloudera in another one, MapR, or even Isilon and other shared storage systems. If you do an LS, you'll find the same files. If you read the data, you'll find the same data. You can run applications against all of those MapReduce and Hive. We came up with this mostly from conversations with customers who firmly decided that they are not going to settle on one distribution. We're supporting multiple distributions for different applications, different reasons, and we found that unification in this manner provides a lot of value for them. That's interesting. I got a lot of questions. I want to start with just your, get your insight on the diversity of Hadoop distributions. Jeff Kelly yesterday said, listen, with all due respect to everybody outside of these three, Hortonworks, Cloudera and MapR are really the big three that are gaining momentum in the marketplace. And there are others, but his sort of prediction was that the market's going to consolidate around those three and then maybe there's going to be further consolidation. How much difference and diversity is there between those three distros and how does that affect your development? So between Cloudera and Hortonworks, there's a little bit of difference, not a whole lot. They both tend to leapfrog each other across minor release versions. MapR, of course, is a completely different proprietary file system, but it has its place in this ecosystem and there are some applications that run well in each of these platforms. Customers are not standardizing on one. They're picking what works best for that specific application. I think a little bit of this has to do with the fact that the application programming paradigm has changed. You're not writing SQL, not necessarily writing SQL applications anymore. You're doing MapReduce processing, Hive, a number of things that sort of look like SQL, but not always. So that opens up this whole new way of doing things and you don't necessarily want to say this is not like picking Oracle and writing to Oracle SQL. There are a different set of applications and people are happy to go with different solutions that work best.  Certainly, you don't have unlimited R&D budget. So you have to prioritize and if I heard you correctly, you got the big three or you can support other distros like Pivotal. We do have support for all the distros. We support Cloudera, Hortonworks, Pivotal, IBM. We're certified against all of these. The MapR product is a separate file system so we don't support that in our nonstop HDFS product with this new upcoming unified file system. We will support that as well and we're also working with shared storage vendors to offer support for that. So that's just, I was just, it's brute force hard work. It's engineering on each of those to make sure that- It's a certain level of work but the core intellectual property actually buys us a lot. The replication engine hasn't changed not a whole lot from nonstop HDFS and I have a crew of engineers that are just amazing with this stuff now because we've taken the time to build nonstop HDFS. That gives us a huge advantage. We can go in and build a unification system without too much effort and the reality is the application API for talking to Hadoop systems is relatively simple. It doesn't support the complex POSIX API so we got a little bit of relief from that. Well, I think this is incredibly powerful conceptually because I've seen over my career so many situations where a company who was solving a really hard problem or was in a niche had to pick a winner. And if they picked the wrong winner, if they picked OS2, they were doomed.  Maybe I'll put my resources there. Oops, I'm going to bet my company on Lotus Notes. Okay, I mean so many, I've asked VMS that just didn't pan out. You're able to hedge your bets. True. And now it sounds like it's a function of both great engineering and the nature of the state of programming today. That is true. It's a function of both and the deep expertise we have in the strong consistent replication helps. And customers are really good to see the product and that just electrifies my engineers. My guys come back with really good ideas for doing it. So we're excited. Well, it de-risks it for the customer. Absolutely. So use whatever distro you want. We're not going to try to push you in one way. We're distribution agnostic. Different distros are going to have horses for courses. You know, obviously map bar is good for this. Cloudera for that, et cetera, et cetera. We can handle it all. So that's going to be a very compelling value proposition. It's a compelling value proposition. We've had customers come back to us and say we want to use this for upgrading from one version of the same distro to another. And sure, that works really well. And it's a use case that's low risk for them. They go in, they keep their existing cluster, operating as normal, point some ingest pipelines at this new file system layer that sits on top of it. The replication takes over and at another data center or maybe another cluster in the same data center, they now have this new version of that distribution. So that's a use case that came out of the blue to us and it's perfectly acceptable. Sorry, final speaker, you're saying within the same distro. Within the same distro, CDH44 to CDH51 or HTTP, earlier to HTTP21. Well, I want to explore this a little bit. So this is a big deal. Because normally, when you're doing some kind of major software upgrade, you've got to have planned downtime. And I've seen it before, I can think of several clients that we had that said, oh no, the vendor said it's OK. And then something happened and they were down for days. In one case, it was really weeks before they got back to where they needed to be. And the reason was they had to sort of half operate and they couldn't keep up with the changes. And it was just a real disaster. True disaster. And I don't take that term lightly. So pre this solution, how would an upgrade go and take us through how it worked while it just did. But compare the two. So in a normal upgrade process, going from a minor rev to a minor rev, it's usually just supported by Cloud Era Manager. They've done a good job of that. And you go through and rotate through the servers upgrading them. A major rev upgrade is a major problem. Sometimes there's data migration involved. They've tried very hard. Both the distro vendors have tried very hard to keep that minimal. But it's a disruptive change. And you can expect a few days downtime at least. What we bring to the table is keep your existing applications operational on your existing cluster. If you happen to be looking at a DR cluster or if you already have a DR cluster, then we'll install a new version on that. And we'll install our bridge file system on top of both of these and start replicating from one to the other. Now you can try porting your applications. The little known secret or dirty little secret is that not all applications just run from one version of a distro to another version. Because sometimes the APIs change. Sometimes there are subtle semantic differences. So you try your new applications on the new cluster. Once you've got that satisfactorily running and you know that the new system is fully up, you can decommission nodes from your old cluster and perhaps upgrade that to the new version. So now you have a bridged cluster, both running the same rev, the newest rev of your distro. Okay, so let's go through that. So in your solution, when I'm going to the new version of the major upgrade, if something goes wrong, what happens? In our solution, remember the existing cluster remains intact, it's untouched. Applications are running on it. We have installed a layer in front of that for certain ingest and perhaps start replicating over time. Now if you're sitting in just the next rack, then that replication takes a very short time. When the data is replicated, you have the same data with strong consistency in a new cluster running the latest version of that distro. So now the next job is to take your applications and try running on those. 99% may work out of the box. One or two things will break. We all know how these things go. You fix those, maybe it takes a couple of days, three days. Your data is remaining consistent. Remember that as your data is pouring into your old cluster, it's also getting replicated into the new cluster. When you've got the applications running satisfactorily, you have the option of running both simultaneously for a week or so or cut the old one out and switch to the new one. And without any downtime, you now have a new distro and applications. Okay, and so in the old world, you would have to, what, try to anticipate the things that were gonna go wrong with the applications or try to test it? Correct.  Correct. So even in your scenario, if it takes longer, if there are some unknown blind spots, if it takes a week or two weeks, your data is still consistent. The data is consistent. Now I will admit, you need more resources for doing it this way because you basically have two copies of the data at one point. But if you mean compute resources. Right. It's a small price to pay though. Absolutely. Relative to the cost of downtime. Right, and most often companies operating at this level of availability will have a disaster recovery cluster that's probably lying idle. What we've done is converted that disaster recovery cluster into an active part of your workload. I mean, again, I would think if a customer is saying, well, if their big objection is I got to buy more servers or more storage, then the value of this feature is not enough to offset that. But for the guys who understand the importance of this and the cost of downtime is so high, it's a no brainer. It's a no brainer. And we're feeling all sorts of requests from people for this. It's an alpha stage and we just showed it to a few people, but the word has spread and now we're having a hard time keeping sales guys out of mind. So now, what do you call this a deep unification? So, David, our CEO, came up with the name One Hadoop and I'm not supposed to say that, but we're still mulling the name and I like that. But you're on theCUBE, so that's great. There's only a thousand people watching today. So that's interesting. So where did this requirement come from? Can you talk about that a little bit? So, this requirement, so the idea is mine and I've been talking to customers. I work very closely with customers. I believe that's an important part of my job. And I can't mention names of a few customers, but the original idea came from conversations with some of these customers and the struggles they were experiencing and the realization that it is never going to be a single Hadoop in every, there's never going to be a red hat of the Hadoop world. Let's put it that way. And we jumped on the opportunity to bridge all these disparate distros. Yeah, well, the second person this week has said that Abhimeda said the same thing yesterday on the panel. He said there will be no red hat of a Duke for so many reasons. One is that the Hadoop is going to be much bigger than Linux. And the second is, you know, back in the day, people pretty much in red hat had competition, but the big whales kind of left them alone. If anything, actually IBM helped them by injecting a billion dollars into the Linux ecosystem. And today I think people see the opportunity. The question we have, and I don't know if you have any thoughts on it, is, you know, how many of the distro vendors will actually survive? My feeling is that the market can support three distros. I agree. I've seen distinct applications that really work well on each of these distros. And customers are fanatical about that. At the end of the day, you can sell them a storage layer, you can sell them a compute layer. All that doesn't matter if the application doesn't work well. And given that each of these applications have unique attributes, and people are developing those, I mean, there's a lot of energy going into that. I think the ecosystem can easily support three distros. What I love is the passion around the business model. So you got MapR, actually, you can make money off of its distro. Hortonworks not trying to make money off its distro and Cloudera trying to make its distro sticky so it can move up the stack. And the three dramatically different business models. Again, I can see all three of them having legs and working. I mean, if you've got passion around that strategy and you've got people who believe in it and customers that are loyal, there's no reason why you can't make money at all three of those. No, and I've met some folks from traditional shared storage industry and they have a handle on this as well. They're getting some applications to run better on their systems than some Hadoop applications to run better on their systems than anybody else. And remember, they have longstanding relationships with a lot of these customers. They can walk in and in two days have one of these applications running well. So there's more to it than, and it is going to be much bigger than Linux and there's definitely room for a number of players in the industry. And I can't say what the best business model is. I mean, I could see, okay, if I'm a VC, I want to invest in Hortonworks because they're going for massive volume and they've got the software economics game. I could see, Intel obviously put a lot of money into Cloudera, but if I'm Intel, why not? I'm going to build an ecosystem around that and this is this huge opportunity. I can see that having a viable model and then I look at MapR, okay, maybe it's smaller but I see a potential for great profit there to the extent that they can stay ahead. I mean, I guess the argument against MapR is again, the one we were having is can they stay ahead of the open source world? And that's an interesting question and one that you probably think about all the time. We think about that a lot. We do have products that mitigate some of this risk. One Hadoop is an example. We really help customers live with multiple distros so that product has legs beyond anything we do. On the other hand, we are a proprietary enhancement to Hadoop and we add value that nobody else can. So much like MapR, we're seeing customer traction precisely because of that. At the end of the day, to users, does it really matter that it's open source versus closed source? All that matters is it must work and must be well supported. No, no, people will pay up for a proprietary function. I mean, everybody in this world is open. Who's not open? I mean, Oracle open. Oracle's the least open of them all, but Oracle's, they can point to a lot of things. I mean, Java, it's open. It's open, yeah, so. So today's world is open. It's a spectrum and it's a moving target. So people will pay up for a proprietary function. There's no question about that. I mean, sometimes in the community, you get passion around, well, we're more open than you are and you're bad, we're good. That's all nonsense. I mean, the customers don't care about that. They care about solving business problems as you well know. Financial services is interesting. I was talking to David Richards about this. They seem to really be leading the charge again here.  But nonetheless, it seems to have started in financial services, obviously web giants, but in the commercial enterprise. It seems like financial services is leading the charge again, whereas just a few short years ago, everybody thought the banking system was dead. Here we are again, leading the tech charge. That's very true and you are correct. I meet a lot of IT folks from the top banks and the top financial institutions. They're smart, savvy people. They may have been totally oracle people five, six years ago, but today they know more about Hadoop applications than most people I've seen. And I had a discussion with this gentleman from one of the big credit card companies. He was talking about how somebody walked up to him in a bar and said, you guys are ex, you're old, and we have the new way to exchange money and do business. And he happened to mention that they had supplied a lot of the technology that went into the wallet software offered by one of the big new, very catchy vendors. I'm trying hard to not mention names, but the fact is that the financial industry is very savvy these days and I'm somewhat convinced and this is totally my own theory that within months, maybe years, there will be credit card companies that accept Bitcoin for payment, perhaps, or it's going to become a much more dramatically evolved world and the technology they're using is all Hadoop. Almost all of it is Hadoop based. Well, I'm a believer in digital currency. It's interesting when I hear Warren Buffett on CNBC saying, stay away from it, it's never going to happen, it's going to die, and then you get guys like Mark Andreessen on the other end talking about how it's much more than a digital currency. It's a platform, it's an ecosystem evolving around it. Kind of esoteric terms, but we've seen these wild cards like open source, you know, Warren Buffett might say open source, how can you make any money? You don't ever do open source and then you look what happens around the innovation, not that he ever said that, he didn't, but I'm just using it as sort of a metaphor for digital currency and the naysayers and the supporters. But it's interesting to see digital currency riding on top of this, we call, the others call the digital fabric, and it's going to be interesting to see how the financial services firms transform. The money business has always been the smartest people, they're sharks, and they kind of have a tendency to figure it out, and then they do some stupid things, and then they shake out, but they have a knack of rebirth. Yes, yes. So it's going to be fun to watch. But well, Jagain, thanks very much for coming on theCUBE. Again, always a pleasure riffing with you on industry trends. I'll give you the last thought, just perceptions of Hadoop world this year, sort of where we're at in Hadoop, some of the things that are exciting you, whatever you want to close with. I want to close with this. I did a talk on global Hadoop yesterday. I've done similar talks a year ago. Yesterday's talk was standing room only. All the questions were from customers who were experiencing the pain of trying to do things with this CPE, and they want a real solution to that. These are production problems. So the notion that Hadoop is moving out of the labs and environments where POCs are done into real production is very true. All the customers you see at the conference today are customers doing production applications. So that's wonderful to see. Awesome, you know, Rich Napolitano was on earlier. He said, if you want the truth, you got to talk to either engineering or sales. That's where the truth lives. So we love having you on, because we get the truth. So thanks again. Thanks Dave, wonderful to meet you. Great to see you. All right, keep it right there, but we'll be back right after this world. This is theCUBE, we're live from Big Data NYC.


It's video Friday with Art Resin. Hey, it's video Friday and today I'm joined by Jasmine, who's the newest member of the Art Resin crew. So internet meet Jasmine. Jasmine meet the internet. Hi. Hi the internet. Nice to meet you. So Jasmine's been doing a ton of experimenting here at Art Resin. This is something she's been working on a lot here lately. And what she's doing is pouring these really thin sheets of Art Resin. And then when they dry, she's cutting them out into different shapes and stuff. And then you can like layer them on your work and you can add depth to your artwork as well. So she's just going to walk us through here what she's doing. So you've got these plastic cutting boards. Yeah, you want to make sure that it doesn't have any sort of tooth on it, because then you're not going to be able to peel it off the next day. Not wood, not metal either. So she's got her Resin tent, epoxy resin here all mixed up. Mm-hmm. Give it a good glue. And these boards are also really handy because they're flat, right? Jasmine was trying to do this on wax paper and our vinyl shower curtains. But because they've got ridges and wrinkles and stuff, it didn't work as well. Yeah, it's going to be completely flat. And you can pick it up and rotate it. Perfect. So we just rotate it and spread it. And then eventually we're going to end up with something like this, right? And then you leave it for how long? 24 hours. And not too much longer than that because as the resin hardens, it gets hard to cut. Right. So after 24 hours, we're going to just peel this right off the plastic cutting board and then you can cut out whatever shapes you want. And actually we do a piece of artwork here from our How to Resin series. And you can see we created this one with Resin tent. And we used Jasmine's method.  And then layered them and then covered the whole thing in a coat of epoxy resin. So it looks pretty awesome. It sure does. So stay tuned for our How to Resin series so you can see exactly how we made this beautiful art resin heart. That's it for Video Friday. Are you going to sing with me? Sure. Okay, here we go. Video Friday with Art Resin. Oh, thank God that's over.


The National Broadcasting Company at its affiliated stations present the Pacific story. This is the story of the Pacific, the drama of the millions of people who live around this greatest sea where the United States is now committed to a long term policy of keeping the peace. This is the background story of the events in the Pacific and their meaning to us and to the generations to come. The Untouchables of India calls all Untouchables to the village well at Sundown. Pass the word. Harken to the call of Ambedkar Sahib, our leader. Come to the village well at Sundown. Pass the word. Untouchables, Dr. Ambedkar Ji calls us to the mass meeting at the village well at Sundown. Pass the word and come. From the streets of Bombay, from the villages around Bombay they came. The Untouchables, whom Gandhi had called the children of God. But whom under the code of Manu have for centuries been reviled? Sweepers, scavengers, washers, convales, tanners, crematory guards. They dropped their work and headed for the outcast community in the suburbs of Bombay. Perhaps it is because Ambedkar Ji has left the chancery of the Gaikwur. He was a favorite of the Gaikwur. It was the Gaikwur who sent him away to be educated. Yes, that is where the Gaikwur made him chief of the chancery when he came back. And now he has resigned? He made him like a dog in the palace. Even though he is educated as well as they. Praise Ambedkar Ji for his courage. The ministers of the Gaikwur's cabinet would not even take a document from his hands. The servants handled everything he touched with tongs. He has shown us the way. At Sundown the Untouchables were streaming into the outcast community from all directions. They gathered at the common well. And Ambedkar, the Untouchable, the son of an Untouchable, the grandson and the great grandson of Untouchables, Ambedkar, born with the taint of the pariah upon him, educated in the College of Bombay, in Columbia University in New York, in the University of London, in the University of Bonn, Germany, Ambedkar spoke to his people. Ten of the caste families here have their own wells. All the other families of this community use this well. All accept us. We must walk a mile outside the village to the well that is designated to us. The worker who has labored all day may not draw water from this well where the lowest caste peddler may drink. Step up here, Lalbetu. Yes, Ambedkar. What is your work, Lalbetu? I am a sweeper. Have you ever walked out to the well outside of the village for your water? Every day of my life. Draw the water from this well, Lalbetu. This well? Yes, draw it. Raise it up. Now pour the water into your bucket. Yes, Ambedkar.  I hold here in my hands a copy of the Manu Smriti, the code of Manu. In this code, Manu has set down as sacred the regulations and the duties of the caste and has specified the social damnation of the 50 millions of us untouchables, like the fire. Yes, Ambedkar. Let the Hindus pour into the Manu Smriti and pray it of its code for dealing with us whom they call unclean, and let them remember that this day we consigned it to the flames. Let them ponder on what is left of it in the flames of justice. Ambedkar publicly burned the copy of the code of Manu, and Ambedkar roused the untouchables and burned the copy of the Manu Smriti in a bonfire outside a bonfire. Ambedkar burned the code of Manu and threw water from a caste well before a thousand untouchables in a bonfire. Ambedkar, Ambedkar, Ambedkar, Ambedkar. Ambedkar's name swept through all India. The untouchables had found a champion, a scholar, the intellectual equal of any Brahmin or any Hindu or any Muslim in all India. Dr. Ambedkar knew why he was an untouchable. A thousand years before Christ, India was inhabited by Dravidians and Negrites. They were conquered by the Aryans who came in wave after wave down through Hyberpass. The Aryans were dominated by the priests or the priestly caste, who were called the Brahmins. Under them were three other castes. Instead of killing off the Dravidians, the invaders made them outcasts. All four of the Aryan castes made the Dravidians untouchables, and we have come down from them. The Brahmins saw to it that it was almost impossible for the untouchables to get any learning. With the passing generations, our people were more and more debased. The Brahmins laid down the principles of the four castes, always raising themselves higher and pushing the untouchables lower. The untouchables are insufficiently careful about drinking water. Water is a highly dangerous source of disease and contamination, so spoke the Brahmins. The untouchables are insufficiently careful about their eating habits and about the eating of the flesh of mammals. They must therefore be kept separate from the castes and must do the unclean work, for they are unclean. This was the spirit of the Code of Manu 2,000 years ago, and the Brahmins invested this code, the Manus Muriti, with sacredness. It is not sacred. It is the man-made book of rules contrived by one people for the debasement of another. Ambedkar spoke in terms of the Brahmins and the other Hindu castes understood in terms that were undeniable. Despite all that they could do to hamper the education of the untouchables, he had achieved an education.  Have you Brahmins ever thought how many unusual untouchables there would be if you gave them the chance? Some schools have been open to you, untouchables? Some, yes. Those opened by the Hindu social reform organizations and the foreign missionary societies. And the government agencies. More untouchables are being admitted to the schools, even the private schools. Admitted, yes, but still required to sit apart, still reviled. You have started to retreat, and you will not be able to stand the tide. Ambedkar referred to the thousands of untouchables who had risen from the depths to social position at wealth, lawyers, doctors, teachers, representatives in the government, even successful businessmen, and to those who, despite the social straitjacket into which they'd been born, were coming along to carry on the fight for social recognition. All had faced opposition and snubs at every turn. You are living your own part of the village. You will not use the roads that pass Hindu temples or those that go through Brahmin quarters. Stay away from me. Do not come within seven feet of me. Stay away from me. With the intelligence, the diligence, the enterprise of the untouchables who did rise to position, the upper castes could not argue. Yet no matter what they achieved, they would not be recognized nor socially accepted. The Brahmin attitude is fixed. These people are not untouchables by accident. Nothing is accidental. Only those who deserve to be born untouchables by their behavior in previous life are born untouchables. Our own acts determine our fate in the next generation. Do not pity the untouchables. They are only atoning for what they have done in previous life. If they prove themselves deserving in this life, they may be born into a higher caste in their next generation. But no amount of rationalization as to the why of untouchability would stop Dr. Ambedkar in his fight for his unfortunate people. He had great arguments too. And he had practical political ideas which stirred a hornet's nest and set the hand of the great Indian leaders one against the other. Gandhi on one side, Nehru on the other, and many lesser Indians between them. The British government invited Dr. Ambedkar to the Round Table Conference in London in 1930. I demand a separate electorate for the untouchables. Separate electorates meant that the untouchables would elect their own representatives to the legislative bodies of the government of India and to those of the provinces of India. To this Gandhi made a sharp reply. I claim myself in my own person to represent the vast mass of the untouchables. Does the Mahatma mean that his Congress party stands for the untouchables and that he will speak for them? If a referendum were held, I would get the vote of the untouchables. There may be people in the Congress party who sympathize with us untouchables, but I fully represent the claims of the untouchables. Let no man be under any mistaken impression as regards that. And I demand a separate electorate for the untouchables. If the untouchables were given a separate electorate, they would become a separate political unit, apart from the Hindus. With their 50 million, they could be a balance of power. They could throw their weight where it would do them the most good. There is no religious distinction between the untouchables and the Hindus. To give the untouchables a separate electorate would be removing them from Hinduism. We untouchables are now separated by a social gulf greater than that which separates the Muslims from the majority. We untouchables could never be farther apart from Hinduism than Hinduism has already made us. I would not sell the vital interests of the untouchables even for the sake of winning the freedom of India. Separate electorates are not the only ones in India. Separate electorates are not the way to remove the bar sinister which is the shame not of the untouchables themselves but of orthodox Hinduism. Gandhi had already adopted into his own home an untouchable girl. He pleaded the case of Indian nationalism, the unity of the Indians against what was called the government inspired separate electorate. He pleaded that the British government was inspiring the idea of the separate electorate to divide the Indians in order to retain control of India. A separate electorate would perpetuate the status of the untouchables.  We must have done with the caste system.  The round table conference collapsed. Gandhi went home. When his ship docked at Bombay he ordered resumption of civil disobedience and the boycott of British goods. Gandhi was arrested and lodged in the jail at Pune. He wrote to Sir Samuel Hoare, the Secretary of State for India. In the event of the government's decision creating separate electorates for the untouchables I must fast unto death. The British Prime Minister answered Gandhi by telegraph. As I understand your attitude you propose to adopt the extreme course of starving yourself to death not to secure that the untouchable should have joint electorates which is already provided nor to maintain the unity of the Hindus which is also provided but solely to prevent the untouchable from being able to secure a limited number of representatives of their own choosing to speak on their behalf in the legislatures which have a dominating influence over their future. The decision of the government must stand. Gandhi's followers gathered outside the jail in Pune. Gandhi G must not be permitted to die. This is not the main issue. The main issue is freedom for India. We must prevail upon Gandhi G not to sacrifice himself for discourse. Meantime Hindu leaders reopened the entire question with Ambedkar and the other untouchable leaders. If you insist on a separate electorate Gandhi will starve himself to death and our major objective will be crippled. The untouchable cannot go on without adequate representation. What concessions are you prepared to make? What do you ask? We ask more seats in the provincial legislatures. How many more? More than twice as many as we now have. Twice as many? And primary elections so that we can select our own candidates for these seats. The untouchables did not get their separate electorate but they did get the right to vote in the same general constituencies with the Hindus and more than twice as many seats were reserved for them in the provincial legislatures as they had before. On the seventh day Gandhi broke his fast. He had forced to show down with the government but Ambedkar had forced to show down with him and the matter of the untouchables had been aired before the whole world. Gandhi's idea is to remove the stigma of the untouchables by making them a fifth caste. There are four other Hindu castes. But in this he accepts the validity of the caste system. This is an Indian scholar. Nehru on the other hand believes that the caste system must go if India is to progress. Gandhi believes in reform but Nehru says that while some of the social and civic rights of the untouchables may be regained by reform only a complete overhauling of economic system from top to bottom can resolve the fundamental problems of the untouchables and this means that the caste system must be abolished. Even the Hindu Mahasabha a society of orthodox Hinduism has taken formal action against untouchability. Whereas the caste system based on birth as at present existing is manifestly contrary to universal truth and morals whereas it is the very antithesis of the fundamental spirit of the Hindu religion whereas it flouts the elementary rights of human equality This all India Hindu Mahasabha session declares its uncompromising opposition to the system and calls upon the Hindu society to put a speedy end to it. But untouchability still exists. The attitudes it engenders have roots that are deep and centuries old. Untouchability is passing but the castes that are reared to revile the untouchable do not easily accept him nor do the untouchables themselves accept the society of those among themselves whom they consider beneath them. I am a leather worker but I would not break bread with him for he is only a handler of the dead. I have an honorable profession burning the dead but I would not permit that young man to marry my daughter he is only a sweeper. I am a sweeper but I would not drink water from the same well as he does he is only a scavenger. Even among the untouchables each reviling those they consider beneath them these are the people whom Ambedkar leads and whose chains he would break. Ambedkar summoned the untouchables to a conference in North India's historic city of Lucknow representatives of the high untouchables and the low untouchables came. Ambedkar had demonstrated to them what they could do if they joined in a solid determined movement. As they had come from the streets of the great cities and the streets of the villages to see him publicly burn the Manismuriti they came to Lucknow to consider the renunciation of their ancient Hindu faith. Let us resolve here that we will not die with the stigma of untouchability which was seared into our souls when we were born. Any other faith which will recognize our social and human rights. Dr. Ambedkar's outcry shook India from the Himalayas to Cape Comerian. A resolution was adopted recommending that all untouchables renounce Hinduism. Some progress had been made but many untouchables went away with questions in their minds. What religion will we have if we do not have Hinduism? We do not really have Hinduism but it is the only religion we have. Ambedkar Sahib has become a Sikh. A Sikh? Could we all become Sikhs? I do not know. Some embraced Christianity but the mere profession of another faith did not help them. You, what are you doing there? I am drawing water. This is a public well away with you. I am a Christian now. You are still an untouchable. No, I am a Christian. I am no longer a Hindu. The well of the unclean is outside the village. There you can draw water but not here. Now away with you. Christians or Hindus they were still untouchables. Those who embraced Mohammedanism were no better off. They still were not removed from the ranks of the damned. They still could not own land nor produce things to sell nor sell the things that others produced. For whatever they touched those in the castes would not touch. They still could work only in the lowest occupations sweepers, tanners, washers, cobblers, scavengers. They still were obliged to live in houses apart from the Hindus. Sometimes even were obliged to live on the leeward side so that the wind would not carry their uncleanness toward the house of the Hindu. There are two major aspects to the problem. This is the Indian scholar. One is political and the other is economic. A separate electorate would give the untouchable special political power which should it be combined with that of other minorities could be the balance of power in India. Yes, it would take a 50 million from the ranks of the Hindus. And the untouchables would then be in a position to use their block of political power to their own best political interest. This Gandhi believes would increase the friction between the political bodies of India. The alternative then is to do away with the cast altogether. But Gandhi still thinks of the untouchables as within cast, as a fifth cast. He is working for the rehabilitation of the outcasts. Well, indirectly. Well, that is the main objective of his fellowship of the servants of the untouchables. It must be remembered that Gandhi is carrying on the work in this respect that has been underway for many years by such organizations as the Brahma and Parcon Samaj and the depressed classes mission society. Gandhi has for years fought for the untouchables. From his hospital bed, where he was recovering from an operation, he carried on a fight for the right of the untouchables to use a road which passed a famous old Hindu temple in Baikon. A barrier has been thrown across the road? Yes, all people are on one side of the barrier and the Brahmins are on the other side. They will not permit us to pass. The right to pass must be yours. Tell your people to stay there. We will stay. Tell them to hold fast. But there must be no violence. I am with you. For weeks, the untouchables faced the Brahmins across the barrier. When the rains came, the waters rose. Soon the water will be up to our wastes. Gandhi G says we must stay here. The Brahmins have boats. We must stay. The water is up to our wastes. If it rises higher... Still we must stay. Gandhi G says we must stay. The untouchables stayed at the barrier as the waters rose inch by inch. Gandhi from his hospital bed directed the untouchables. Sympathizes came to join them at the barrier. The waters rose. The water is up to our shoulders. We must die here. But we must not leave. The road is hereby officially declared open. What? Who said that? It was unofficial. That one over there. The road is hereby officially declared open to all traffic, including the untouchables. The barrier will be removed. He said we can use the road. We have won. We have won. We have won. Not only was the road past the Hindu temple at Vycom open to the untouchables, all the roads of Travancore were open to the untouchables. And the young Maharaja of Travancore issued a special edict on his 24th birthday. The great Brahmin, Pandit Malavir, personally took hundreds of untouchables into the Hindu veil. Yet all this was not the answer to the deep-rooted problem of untouchability. Many of the temples thrown open by the edict of Travancore were shunned by more Orthodox Hindus. And they became untouchable temples. Human nature could not be changed by edict or by law. Untouchability was still untouchability. But to many, untouchability was only part of the bigger problem of Indian freedom, and therefore economic. It is not we who are fighting for freedom from Britain. This is an educated untouchability. We are fighting for social recognition and for the right to live. Food is enough food to fill our stomach and a cloth to put around our loins. That is the need of all Indians. Starvation is a perpetual problem in India. The social barriers between us can only disappear when India as a whole prospers. We can never prosper, any of us, until we are free. India can never prosper until we enjoy the fruits of our own efforts and the benefits of our own resources. This is the view of the Nationalist Congress Party. The root of our problem is lack of education.  There are no free schools in India and education is not compulsory. To win freedom for India, we must be united. But our first interest is to be redeemed. To carry on the fight of a people so debased requires money. It requires organization. It requires leaders. Because of the nature of the plight of the untouchables, there is little of any of these. The untouchables have no money. They have few leaders. They have almost no organization. But today, Ambedkar, the untouchable, holds one of the highest posts of India. In 1942, Ambedkar was appointed a member of the British Viceroy's Council. The Viceroy's Council is an executive council. It is comparable to the cabinet of the president in the United States. Many Hindus do not approve of his serving on this council. It is not an elected post. Ambedkar was not elected by the people. He was appointed by the British Viceroy. Yes. All the members of the council are. The Britishers hold the key positions in the council. The portfolios of war, finance and home affairs. That is right. But 11 of the 15 members of the council are Indians. That gives us a majority. And the Viceroy usually acts on the advice of the council. Or the narrowly yes. But no leader of a leading Indian political party would accept a post on the British Viceroy's Council. The objective of you nationalists is freedom for India. The objective of us untouchables is freedom from the curse of the outcast which has been on us for generations. Slowly the political strength of the untouchables is beginning to tell. The untouchables have no representation in the central legislative assembly which is the national house of representatives. But today they do have representatives in the provincial assemblies or state legislatures. But more important than this is the trend toward the eventual complete abolition of untouchability. The real hope of India lies in the increasing number of persons who have progressed beyond racial barriers and ancient prejudices. These people are looking forward to a social order based upon freedom and equality for all. You have been listening to the Pacific Story presented by the National Broadcasting Company and its affiliated independent stations to clarify events in the Pacific and to make understandable the cross currents of life in the Pacific Basin. For a reprint of this Pacific Story program send 10 cents in stamps or coin to University of California Press Berkeley, California. May I repeat? The Pacific Story is written and directed by Arnold Marquess. The original musical score was composed and conducted by Thomas Paluso, your narrator, Gane Whitman. Programs in this series of particular interest to service men and women are broadcast overseas to the Worldwide Facilities of the Armed Forces Radio Service. This program came to you from Hollywood. This is NBC, the National Broadcasting Company. This is the National Broadcasting Company. The National Broadcasting Company NBC, the National Broadcasting Company.


In just one year, the Catalog Choice Program has stopped over 22 tons of unwanted advertising mail from reaching the Portland region's mailboxes. Tom talked with EcoMain board member Susan McGinty about how the program benefits the environment and how you can sign up. Thanks for joining us to talk about the first anniversary of Catalog Choice, EcoMain's program that just started a year ago. Before we get into exactly what that is for some people who may not know what EcoMain is, could you just talk about that briefly? EcoMain is a regional organization that manages the waste and recyclables, all aspects of the waste stream for many of the communities in Cumberland County and some of the communities in York County. And actually in recent years, we've kind of spread out and we have some associate members that are farther flung. And one of the things that you do with trash is to burn it and make energy out of it, but before that you encourage people to recycle. We do. EcoMain is the successor of regional waste systems, which began in, I think, 1988. And somewhere in the early 90s, we began recycling. And we've always made that a priority, even though it might seem that it's counterintuitive to an organization that's burning waste for energy. Well, yeah, but it reduces it. And of course, this is sort of the mantra for recycling is reduce, reuse, recycle. It describes a hierarchy of what people should do first. And the first thing is reduce, which is what Catalog Choice is all about. So now how does it work? How do people get involved? What do they do?  It's secure. Your information is secure. We do track information by zip code, and that allows us at EcoMain to know how successful we've been. Basically, the program is to choose what catalogs you want to receive and don't want to receive? Yes. I have to admit that I kind of like catalogs. They're shiny. They have great pictures. They let me know what I might want to buy and what I never even knew I wanted to buy. But there are quite a few of them. And I have to admit, I should be ashamed to admit, but candor in this season is probably a refreshing thing. And I had not been a participant in Catalog Choice until Shelly came with the annual figures, which was kind of a great reminder that this is an opportunity. So I brought along a little pile here, and you might think this is a catalog, but that is just the back page of the catalogs that I had. Oh, and a catalog. Wow. That is a lot of catalogs. And that's not any duplicates. Right. And how much time does it take to go through that? To go through them? If you wanted to. That's right. So you do have to take a few minutes to go on the website. But it's really quite easy. I spent a little time kind of looking around it when I first went on. But really, you just go in, you put down your name, your address. You do have to join, which is basically just giving them your email and your zip code. And quickly, how successful was it in the last year? What has been accomplished? Well, we have, where are the totals? We have prevented local waste to the tune of 22.2 tons. I don't have all these on the top of my head, but we've saved over 300,000 gallons of water in the past year. And we've prevented 62.7 tons of carbon dioxide from going into the atmosphere. And actually, that's from not a huge number of participants. So we would really like to see that number. And how many participants were in the first year? I believe it was 600 households. Wow, and your area covers way. It's a small fraction. Wow, so a lot of people should be able to participate in the program. And you can participate by just eliminating the catalogs that you might not be in the least bit interested in. And the reason I have all these back pages is because you do kind of need the back page, but you don't have to run to your computer the minute that catalog comes in the door. If you just rip off the back page and put it near your computer, you can recycle the rest of the catalog right then. And when you have a few minutes, you can sit down. And they do have a list of catalogs, but you can just type in the name of the catalog that you have. And do we get more information? People just go to the website? Yes, go to the eco-main.org website. And you'll find a link to catalog choice. Great, thank you very much.


Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2017, brought to you by Cisco. Hey, welcome back everyone. Live here in San Francisco, exclusive coverage with theCUBE at Cisco's inaugural DevNet Create event. I'm John Furrier with my co-host, Peter Burge. We're breaking down the new foray into the open source world with a big presence, Cisco. Expanding their DevNet core developer classic program and creating an open source model with collaboration, 90% of the activities, non-Sysco, really a good formula. And to help us break this down is Chris Subramanian, principal analyst at Risha.research, formerly of Red Hat, formerly of a startup that was recently sold, can't talk about it because it's not released yet, friend of theCUBE's, CUBE alumni. Part of the Clouderati going way back, Chris, we've seen a lot of the waves of how cloud has evolved from the early days. Remember when Engine Yard was a startup, Maruku was a couple of guys, we were having our meetups. And AWS was still like, people were wondering whether it would make money.  It was EC2 and S3 with a couple of different, I mean, right scale did everything then. So think about the changes. And now Cisco here with the formula, they have the right formula, got to give them props for that, doing it right. They're not trying to come in and do a land grab and say, ah, where's Cisco? Throwing their elbows around, really doing it right, your thoughts? Yeah, definitely, like compared to what some other legacy companies try to do, Cisco didn't try to jump in and say, hey, we are going to run public cloud, compete with Amazon and sort of like take them down. Like they sort of like waited for the right moment. They initially started with Intel cloud, which didn't go much further. But when IoT came into picture, they were the right for that and they are like taking advantage of that. And with the increasing focus on developers, they are going right to capture the minds of developers. And especially with the, for IoT, that is critical for Cisco to go and capture. Well, I'm really glad you're on with Peter. We have two analysts here who know the industry up and down from every dimension. Of course, I'll add my color, but I want to ask both of you guys a couple questions. One, do you think Cisco's making the right moves by coming out and really focusing on their core competency, which is the network? They also bought app dynamics, so that is a big purchase. So you got apps meets infrastructure, programmable interest, which means infrastructure as code.  They're the leader. So with IoT looming, this seems like a good move for Cisco. What do you think? Yeah, definitely they are going in the right direction. So it's still like IoT is still in the early stages and we have to wait and see how it is going to evolve. Cisco is well positioned, especially I like the app dynamics position because they're clearly telling the world that we understand that applications are the future and developers need the right tools if they have to develop their apps on Cisco infrastructure. And with the emphasis on programmability, Cisco is taking right steps towards capturing developer attention. And I hope with successful humans like this, they will be able to get that. Peter, I want to go to you for a second because we just found out in talking to Susie, we, I did not know this, but in your previous life, when you ran research at Meta Group, folks may not know where that was with a big research firm at the time. You did some really similar work around the infrastructure developer. Okay, and our comment was, what is old is now new? I mean, I got to be reading systems and operating systems in computer science. That seems to be the model. What is this notion of an infrastructure development was mentioned in the keynote today. Does that exist in this new scenario? Do you see it being viable? It seems like the messaging is tight. What is your reaction to this notion? I mean, you did a lot of work on it. Well, as a way of answering the question, John, I'll play off of something you just said when we talked about the degree to which this is relevant to Cisco. Here's what I'd say that if there's, everybody's always looking for, what is it that's different from today relative to yesterday? And there's a lot of things that are different. One of the most important ones is that yesterday's computing industry emphasized an a priori set of models about how you do things. So if you thought about the network, the network had a modeled structure. You sat there and you designed the network to be as relevant to as many things as possible. Same with the database. You sat there and you designed the database to be as relevant to whatever notion of applications. When we start talking about the new world, now what we're discovering is that data is going to force a reconfiguration. That's what big data is. In many respects, it's non-structured, non-model data, but we still want to do analytics. Same thing with the network. We want the network to evolve and emerge, have emerging characteristics that allow us to do things that we never really anticipated when we first put this stuff down. And so the thing that an infrastructure developer, at least as we conceived it, and we were way ahead and probably wrong for that reason, but the way we conceive it is someone has to take some degree of responsibility for starting to characterize, fill that gap, characterize the services in the infrastructure that need to be made available to application developers in a way that makes coherent and consistent sense so that an application written to an infrastructure in fact may become a service to another application at some point in time in the future because they make consistent assumptions about where they operate within that set of, at that margin between the application and the infrastructure. Does that environment exist today in your opinion? It does in certain places. It does in certain places. I think the whole notion of containers is making, and Kubernetes for example, is making some very powerful presumptions about how applications are going to interact with each other in the future. Now we had SOA, but we also talked about Conway's Law that it just never happened because the structure of the organizations that were using SOA just guaranteed you end up with monolithic crap applications anyway. Explain Conway's Law real quick for people who didn't know. Conway's Law has been mentioned on theCUBE a couple of times. Basically it's a suggestion that the structure of the application is a reflection of the structure of the organization that created it. And so if you have a siloed based application development organization that's looking at the application for the finance group or the marketing group, you're going to get a structure, siloed oriented application no matter what underlying technology you use. And that's been that way forever. And so Chris, I want to get your thoughts because let's take that to the next level. So one of the benefits of cloud was horizontally scalable model. That really kind of to me was the big aha moment around software. And what DevOps, which is now called cloud native which is the same thing, infrastructure as code was, hey I'm not an infrastructure so I just wanted to be available for me and help me configure it out and programmable as Susie was saying. Okay, so if you take what Peter's saying about data, you've lived through the infrastructure as a service, platform as a service, SaaS wars or evolution, never you want to look at it. And now you see that kind of coalescing into SaaS and infrastructure and pass this kind of folding away and kind of becoming less of a contentious conversation. But now that same thing's happening with data, we believe, I mean I think, he may disagree, but now data is now the new data layer. What's your thoughts on that? Because now if you inject data into what was the old cloud stack, new things are really possible. Yeah, so the thing is like data brings in a new dimensionality to what we are seeing right now. Like all the, everything from infrastructure to application, everything requires a mindset change in terms of seeing them as services. So even if it is a physical hardware you're dealing with, you have to make it more service like by putting an API in front of it. So it's changing the way how we consume these services. But data is the one that is bringing business value to customers. When you make data easily sort of like interoperate with the services, let's say call it for the lack of better term, services ocean kind of IT model you have in your enterprise. So when you offer, bring data into it, it offers you a lot of opportunities which didn't exist in the past. It opens up new avenues in which you could hand manipulate data, make sense out of it and probably get more value than what you were doing in the past. Well it's interesting if you bring microservices and think about Docker and Kubernetes and you're saying, and you bring data now into the equation and the notion of microservices, you can apply all that microservices knowledge to data. That's what you're saying. What about you? More concepts. You bring data close to take earlier as Peter pointed out. Data was in silos, representative of the organizational structure. So by taking a more services approach and spreading the services across these siloed, in the past siloed organization, you are bringing the entire organization into one single umbrella, sharing their data and thereby benefiting much more than what they were getting in the past. So John, in the opening, one of the things we talked about and I'll repeat it here, if you probably didn't see it and I'd love to hear your comments on it, is that we went to hardware defined networking and then we went to software defined networking and Wikibon's working on a proposition and I'm sure we'll find reasons why it's not going to play out but again, I'd like to hear your position is what I'll call data defined infrastructure. So we were on the cube last week at Informatica and we heard a lot about the role that metadata is going to play in discovery of data resources and whatnot. I can imagine adding metadata when we start talking about dependencies and time and location and things that are relevant to how a network or how an infrastructure might configure itself to serve the data becoming a feature of the programmability of the underlying infrastructure. So that we end up in five years, we do talk about data defined infrastructure. Just today we're talking about software defined infrastructure where the infrastructure literally responds to the needs of the data because that ultimately is the most flexible way of thinking about this. I mean, what do you think? Yeah, I fully agree with you. Like in fact, data brings in a new dimensionality to the equation where applications itself morph based on what is there in the data. So on the fly, the infrastructure needs to be modified. So data sort of brings in a new way of doing infrastructure from what we have done in the past. I fully agree with the role of data in that and how through the application, the influences how we deal with infrastructure just change completely. All right, so I got to ask you guys a question. Journeys, it's journey to DevOps, journey to digital transformation. Certainly has a lot of class, a lot of open source involved it. We're seeing like the Ford CEO get fired, it's been a job for four years, right? So you guys both work with end users and advise them. So what's your advice to CXOs where, hey, the clock now is, I thought four years was short. It really should be seven to 10 on the transformation scale, but people are getting axed in their third year. So they got to show results. How does an executive make all this stuff happen in such a short time? And, or should they just reset expectations? When the executive comes in, he or she not only should look at their core business, they should also think that they are a technology business and change the mindset completely. He has to, that mindset needs push from the top that's going to accelerate the change down the lane. And I think the executive should think that they are becoming a CEO or CXO of a technology company rather than a manufacturing company or an automobile company kind of thing. Oh yeah, it's true, but look, I'm not, we haven't studied what happened at Ford in detail, because I'm sure there's some subtleties in there that we just don't fully understand. On the surface, it sounds like he might've gotten a little bit of a raw deal just from the pure standpoint of- Well, the stock was down 39%, so my guess is total Wall Street hatch a job. Exactly. We don't know a lot of the politics, but Val Bertrovici, he was on earlier, who has a lot of experience in organizations like the NetApps since 97, or late 90s, for an interesting point, you were saying earlier, Tesla creates a car that's a service. And so, to me, I mean, I hate to use the cliche, everything is a service, but essentially that's what software's going to, so where you're meant for a day, that's why I've kind of poking at the data thing, because I think you're- But at the end of the day, at the end of the day, Tesla still has to have a shop that bends metal that puts the, there's still some car manufacturing things that have to happen. And in many respects, perhaps, you know, whether the old CEO was saying, well, the value proposition is, someday this autonomous vehicle's going to happen, but right now we still got to build cars that can compete in the world market. There's a lot of subtleties here. You know, there are- Yeah, but Tesla does upgrade with software over the network. For an 80 to $100,000 price point, and there's about four billion people that are going to buy cars in the next five years that may or may not be able to buy a 80,000 to $100,000 car. So anyway, coming back to your core point, I think what it really means is that if you're in a situation where you don't have visibility in how some of these new digital approaches are going to create value for your business, you're doomed. So I think the first thing you got to do is you got to be very explicit. This is how digital technology is going to create value for my business. That's number one. And be able to articulate that to virtually anybody that's capable of understanding it, including Wall Street. But to do that, you have to step back and say, and what is it about that digital technology that's going to create value for my business? And the thing that's going to do it or not is the data. And the asset configuration around the work around the assets? Especially the asset configuration as it's defined by the data. And increasingly, there's an economics terms. What we're going to see happen over the next 10 years is the asset specificities are going to go down dramatically. In other words, the ability to which, or the degree to which an asset can only be configured to a specific purpose. Software is going to change that dynamic dramatically. And that in many respects is one of the fundamental underlying things that's going on here. But at the end of the day, you have to say, what role is data going to play in my business? How am I going to articulate that role by saying that I'm going to incorporate digital in this way?   Chris, I want to get your thoughts on the cloud native compute foundation. Why is so successful? Why, in your opinion, do you think? And they're just booming with vendors, a lot of cash infusion, a lot of activity. Projects went from one, three, 10. We had Dan on earlier. A lot of growth in the cloud native. And then also Kubernetes as a, kind of as an emerging, really interesting dynamic, vis-a-vis multi-cloud. So why cloud native is so popular and the impact of Kubernetes? Yeah, cloud native is popular because like, off late developers are understanding that the whole way of building applications is not going to work in cloud. When containers came into picture, that really made it easy for developers to develop cloud native apps and got them to take advantage of the more distributed nature of the underlying infrastructure. So the containers are the main reason why cloud native has become the household term, even in the enterprises. That could be one of the reasons why cloud native foundation is popular because they came at the right time to host all these open source projects and evangelize with the developers and take steps in that. As far as Kubernetes is concerned, it worked at Google scale. If it can work at Google scale it's all Google's problem. It should be able to help. It was good for Google, it's good for me. That's their strategy. Yeah, and also like, people are slowly realizing that as more and more enterprises go to cloud, they are realizing that going with a single cloud provider may not solve all their problems because different cloud providers have different set of services. So they want to take advantage of all that, but they want a single pane of glass to manage everything. Kubernetes is turning out to be that multi-cloud. Chris, thanks for coming on. Peter, thanks for the comments. I'll just wrap up the analyst segment by saying, in my opinion, I think Cisco's making a good move here because to your point about Google and Kubernetes is, and that's one of many examples of great software being contributed to open source. And open source, for all the times I've been involved with it since I've been in college, is this more great software coming to the table now than ever before and that's creating great innovation. So combined with the cloud and cloud native and Kubernetes, a perfect storm of innovation is coming and it's coming not from vendors, it's coming from open source. And so the smart vendors are putting their toe in the water and really figuring it out. And again, the developers- And it's coming from vendor support though. Well, the vendors are smart by putting their people in open source as a proxy for contribution, that's the open source model. That to me is the new R&D, it's a new innovation strategy coupled with some proprietary R&D, not saying they should be going all open source, but- I will agree with this completely. In fact, I will even go one step further and say, open source is completely disrupting the traditional enterprise software, my business. It's going to change, think about someone like Capital One putting critical software as open source and disrupting all the vendors in the space. So it's changing- Well, let's continue the conversation in studio or tomorrow. Again, open source is horizontally scaling as well. Great stuff, great projects, more exclusive coverage from the inaugural event for Cisco's DevNet Create after this short break. Hi, I'm April Mitchell and I'm the Senior Director of Strategy and-