Yes, great. Okay, we start. Oh, hey everybody. Hello. Thank you So I'm Ellie and this is my role our story begins that we met together at the academy we Learned the animation and art together But any we even did our graduation film together, but then our ways split it apart. We went to work in different Jobs we acquired more and more skills and different skills from different areas We worked in the game industry a bit and as motion designers and for the TV shows and Blender a yes brought us together and Then began our journey as a like Specific 3d artists you can say yeah, and we founded our studio Friday lab, which is a built on three columns or three legs we like to say learn create and share and By doing this we challenge ourselves to always be in a learning process okay, we always a find challenges and problems and we look inward and study and try to research and find ways to Make stuff better make better pipeline and stuff like this and As I hope some of you saw yesterday the festival after somebody is learning a lot of stuff You need to speed it out, you know to create something out of it So we animation or something that will take those tools you earn and put it to the test so we create Our own art and we also work as freelancers and we work with game companies and We did some music leaps as well and the last Column is sharing okay We we are very inspired by the community of Blender and we like to give back So we have like a YouTube channel and we share Resources and we share stuff that we learn we also have a courses back in Israel We're from Israel. Sorry, let's say And we have like physical courses and private courses that we try to teach as many people as we can The secret of the freedom of creation. Yes Who is this? Oh, there is a hand there. Yes. Oh, this is gone. We didn't go on He's our assistant and we really like 3d assistants. We didn't invite him. No, he's always jumping in and Interfering so remember here go on stay there. We will meet you later So why we start to teach We felt quite of alone other 3d artists and you generally sit alone at your dark room Creating your stuff and we really want like to share and meet other people and Share the skills we earn and make some small community in Israel that we can Starts creating together It all starts by At Friday Each week we we were sitting and meeting with other friends like here and yeah, what a coincidence today It's a Friday and we are Friday lab We didn't ask for that Yes, we did So we get some we gain some partners and we start like create with other people but at the First moment that we try to teach Blender or 3d tools We immediately understood something 3d software could be boring as hell You open it everything is empty grave full of attributes mathematically and How we will manage to engage those students to Start start practicing a 3d artist 3d tools so We start like investigating in a different approach. We didn't want to learn how will Been touched and we want to make something a bit different. We we want to take it to something more Fun and not so Gray So we think we own to something and today we will love to share it with you some of our experiments Will it play will it play yes games We hope you saw that all the small nice scenes there in the in the video of mini and Playful games. We decided to adapt the ideas of using games Okay, and gone is helping me and telling me telling me the definition of what is a game So basically a game is a set of rules that structure in a way that Help us to get to a winning condition. Okay, we have a goal and we try to get to it but as kids we don't think about Those structures. We just play. Okay, if we use building blocks You try to build the highest tower Okay, you have a goal and you have building blocks and you can only stack them on top of each other you made a world of rules for yourself and by doing this you acquire skills that you are not aware of acquiring like you don't play building blocks and Said say to yourself. I want to learn how to balance cubes No, you just play and this is the same idea. We wanted to incorporate into our Teaching method. Okay, and we know that playing is fun So first of all you want to inspire your students your The people that come to learn to to want to learn more to be engaged to Have those feelings of success, you know when you win the game you manage to build the highest Building you have a rush of dopamine in your head and you are happy and you want more of this You want to do it again and again and again, and this is exactly the method we try to incorporate in our games, so Today we are want to To tell you and show you and take you on a journey with us on how to build Learning game. Okay, how to learn by playing and make it fun and joyful and colorful and so on So we took everything that we learn until now and we try to like simplify it to a three Simple steps. Hopefully it will help you to understand how We as a teacher and reaching to start developing this learning game First thing you need to ask yourself what I'm gonna teach there is plenty plenty of Subjects in the 3d softwares Specifically in blender just name it you have like a sculpting modeling Scripting everything just look at the workspace up there and you see how much of a specific Approach or some specific roles you have there So you need to understand what exactly you want to teach But you need to ask yourself who You're gonna teach. Okay, if it's something with just a very minimum of skills or something that are already familiar with 3d software and just need like to gain his knowledge specifically in blender and You need to clear destruction for me for him because otherwise and maybe you familiar with that I don't know if some of your teaching or maybe you're familiar when you just learn a blender that you In the beginning you try like to learn everything at once Okay, like I will do rigging I will model everything a little bit from anything from all and we try like to Focus the students to specific place for example If it if it will be like totally beginner, I probably will start with navigation otherwise if I start like Show him how to model it will be nightmare so the second one is The rules and by that we mean that a good game should have Should be a challenging one. Okay, and we want to make The game challenge a challenge for the student And by that he will gain some kind of winning Feelings by having something that he needs to to accomplish. Yeah We also distract him from the main thing that he learned like let's let's Let's take an example like the tools themselves cannot be The goal or his focus, okay We need to give him something else. He will do and by doing that He will learn those those tools. Okay, if you just learn, okay now I know how to switch between a move rotate and scale. It's nothing. You need to understand What to do with that? And very important again what not Ah, sorry We're not in vain inventing any Game we're not game developers. Okay, so we taking familiar games that we all very know like a maze like Jigsaw puzzle like just name it some game that you're already familiar with and the student could understand quickly The third one and the most creative one is the story In this part we are creating the world that the student will be will take part of And as humans we are connecting Memories with feelings. So Many times our students remember some tools from something That was emotionally attached for them. Okay, if you were looking In the trailer where we show you the video. You will see like we teaching nodes like Shaders and we show we teaching them on a cat at a cow in cow when we do those those Spots everywhere and they always remember that from this cow. They talking about the cow that they made at ramp and noise and everything So we Put a story and we give the student a role inside this story Who is he as a player? What is a purpose inside this game? And then we got a better engagement so More you talk too much and we like to play okay If you already download the link and you have computers You can play one of our games and if not we are going to Show you okay more is going to show you. Yeah, and Ellie gonna challenge me by doing it From there from there Okay, so we are back to gone's world and we have this game. Sorry be here. Okay We need to help gone is very very hungry and he wants to have a Leak of this amazing beautiful cheese. Yes Okay, go back to the code Control that the code Yes, no back. No. No. No. Yes. No. Yes Stay there. Okay, so we have this maze and if you open the file, you will have All the explanation there our goal is to help gone get to the cheese. Okay, but we can only Help him with his tongue. He's too short and we need to Extend it and what better tool to extend a tongue then? Extrude of course, thank you very much. So we will use the extrude tool to get to the cheese Can we begin you already? Okay, you're playing with us. Yes, we hope so. Okay, so Ellie move a bit Sorry, yeah, sir first select the tongue of course and we need to understand Okay, try to get in the mindset of a student that's maybe started yesterday and learned about navigation You know how to get around but still like we are in Kind of a 2d space simple area and we want to teach him the first Modeling tool and extrude region is the best one to start with so more got into edit mode You have a tip down there how to get into edit mode And with the tool of whoa with the tool of extrude he starts to extend the tongue Oh, no, what happened? I think I will Pick this edge and no, no, no, you cannot do that in a maze, right? So we have a problem and it's a One that we put there on purpose Because a lot of time when you use the extrude tool You also not need another tool that goes with it. Which is the cut loop tool? Okay, you can use either the shortcut or go to the side and select it and you can add and slide an edge And now you can continue playing Say more can you get to the cheese in two minutes? Yeah, but if I start like using shortcuts, I'm not like that Okay without shortcuts Okay, and we see that the student more he's here is extruding again and again and again and Plane but I hope is only focusing on how to get to the cheese I'm focusing of achieving it on stage as quick as I can Help me if you if he's doing something wrong. Tell him. It's a very it's excellent time to talk about If you noticed it's in a 2d world not 3d world Okay, you noticed it so you can go around but it we found out that at the beginning it's really helpful to stay Simple and 2d is already Like the tools are already enough complicated. So if you stay like at the beginning only in 2d world It's a little bit more a helpful and easy and again We want to create the feeling of success at first. We want our students to want to learn more to be more Happy, oh, no, I think you were just sorry in my way. I Don't know what are you doing? So someone I already finished it before me. Yes. Yes. Oh, we have a winner Oh Very good Maybe should I learn blender? Yeah? Okay, we're almost there. We're almost there Be ready It's like when I was young looking at other Friends playing a game and see all the mistakes they do. No. No go to this area. Yes. Yes almost there like that Well almost there go. Yes We did it.  Maybe it's like a disgusting story You don't want to get to this cheese and it's a helping our students to forget that they're Learning like boring tools. Okay. Why boring? Okay more? Extruded again and again and again and again He practiced it a lot. He developed a master memory of Doing this extrude operation But his main focus was on how to get to the cheese and he just played a game As we said with the small kid that's building with building blocks He just want to build the highest tower and by doing this he acquired skills and that exactly want we what we want to do and Also notice that we only talked about the extrude tool and maybe the cut loop tool But also more practiced the 3d navigation Okay He's in a 3d world and he needed to zoom in zoom out. He needed to manage Edges and faces and look about the geometry and plan ahead. So we Already developed a lot of more skills than just extruding Okay, okay, so we finished that and now It's time for us to practice together and we will create a new prototype. Okay, prototype. It's the fast Things to do like it's it's the first thing we need to do so If you have laptops, it's good. If not, it's also good and we will do it together and by that you will see how our mind Follow while doing that Okay, so we will reconstruct construct the same game. Just that's you just so now And I will open a blender file And I don't know how exactly we're gonna do that. We're gonna do it like this. Wait, wait Sorry for the technical problems So the first the first here As before the first step is picking the subject. Okay, we need to understand what we want to teach and in the I'm like the wide world of 3d. We need to be as specific as we can. Okay, so for example our We define our students. He's as we saw before is a beginner is already Understand how to navigate in the 3d space. Maybe A our student is not like a beginner in the 3d world. He came from other software, then we will start in other place Okay, so you need to be acknowledged like a know your Student your audience So in our example, it's a beginner. He knows how to navigate and we want to teach him modeling. Okay. Yes, and in Thank you gone Modeling and in modeling. We want to be more specific. What's in modeling? There is a lot of tools. There is a lot of ways a lot of methods and we need to pick some kind of a Subsubject, okay, and we decided to start with extrude. It's not the basic tool. It's a It is used a lot and the first thing we do we go to the software and try to play with it to start and see where the problems are and Yeah, and what?  So again, we need to Go to the state state of mind of a student that's first learning something and we need to slowly Figure out what tools and what problems he's going to encounter The main idea that now I'm really doing it and not just thinking about it So I already can see that I will need like to show him some other tools like the Cut look at all because I understand that it's a crucial to this task So I'm immediately know that I will need to add it in the game that I'm developing Okay, making so we go back So we look a little bit closer when we saw that we are not teaching only the extrude tool It always come together with some other tools for example the edit mode the slide edge tool and the look at tool that you saw and against try to be as Dance and as specific as you can because of course we can teach with a lot more tools, but we try to be a Focused we try to focus our student on each game to have simple and very clear task. Yep and The second step is the game and more said before We we borrow open source. Yes games and rules and we are not game designer We are not trying to invent new tools and teach the student new rules of games We use games that all one everybody knows okay amazed we know that we see a maze We know that we need to get from a to be we see a jigsaw puzzle We know that we need to connect all the pieces to a picture, right? So use games that we already know because there is enough difficulty in learning the tools So for this example, we saw that it's really fun to create a path with by extruding So we decided to take a maze. Yeah Most of the time we're starting also by putting some text and give like some kind of ad Like here we will start with gain from a to be and then we know like the the rules Now we don't know what is a and what is be but later we will know and also which tools we gonna use not a tools Okay, so we need the extrude And it's not for us. It's later for the student and the loop cut Too many peas Look look loop loop and we'll just give it like that and also Just look that I was taking the toolbar extended that the student could could Connect those words those those names to the tools that aside And we want a maze. Yes. Yes. How should we do a maze reference? We can just because it's prototype without it We don't need like to model in the best apology way the maze We just need like something that will be Guidance, but I'm gonna cheat. Yes cheating is good and I'm gonna bring The object object object I'm gonna bring this maze generator By a Simon Thomas, of course. Thank you, Simon. And and now I'm gonna generate a maze Evie, thank you Evie okay, and like that it will be very easy to To see if I need something very hard or it should be easy because it's a Does it look hard enough? Too much time. It's okay. Maybe it's too easy too easy. Okay, so like seven. Yeah, look good. Okay like that Okay So we have that Something else No, we have the rules. We have the game. It's pretty clear and we are ready to the most creative part the story Okay, here. We want to Give the player his role what he need to do. Okay, because to get from A to B. It's fine. It's enough, but it's not Engaging it's not a you don't feel that you are part of this world. So Can you help us? Can you know time? This is your time like we did Tongue that need to get to a cheese. Nice. Not very funny. Now. It's soon Halloween, right? What will be the a what will be the B you choose something we need to extend Yeah, it could not be. Yeah, it's me. You say Maybe they don't know they don't want to help us. We have a tough audience a warm that needs to get to an apple Okay, oh sounds good. Sounds good enough. No. Yes. Okay. Yes. We have an approval. Yes, okay It's not funny enough, but we can check it later. Worms are very funny. Worms are funny. So I need to apply that and Just move everything from here Bye-bye Bye-bye No, no Okay, and I'm gonna do it really really rough. Why because I Have no time. No, because it's a prototype and it doesn't need to be really Pretty it's just need to be functional Hey, we want to test our idea to see if it's working if the student is Getting the task getting the game. Where's the ending point here? Shouldn't be So the one will start here. Okay, and here we will have the apple Nice apple And we take this nice Amazing it's a tutorial If you ever want to model an apple This is your time now more is a Over to is overdoing it. It's doing too much effort into the prototype. This is the one one It's always happening. Yes Okay, don't don't give too many time to the prototype. It should be a fast dirty use shortcuts And we have an apple. Yes. Oh, no The warm inside the apple Okay This is a warm. It's look like a warm a bit. Yes. Good enough Okay, so and now we can Clean a bit the scene and make it ready for our students. Okay, as I said before we need to remove any distractions to help our Player to Understand on what he needs to click and when so for example, I don't want him to select the maze right or the text so I can organize everything in a Collections and make it unselected and remember that like in different from a Movie or an animation that you render the final scene and nobody will see your files and know what happened in there Here we are giving the files to our student and they are going to explore and touch stuff and search And see what we did there. So We need to be organized. We need to be tidy everything need to be as clean as possible to set a good example Yeah, for example if we We need to lock everything that he doesn't need to touch. It's better He to not touch like everything except the warm. Otherwise, he will click in Many places and it will be a nightmare. So we take everything else and put it in a new collection and we call it lock don't touch ever ever and Now also here I can move some things that are not very Important for him like he will not render it. He doesn't need to hide it But I want this select tool to be unselected this Collection and now you cannot mistakenly choose other stuff Okay, we're ready. Yes. Yes So we are ready for the play test time, okay in games There is like also in art when you look at your work and you need to see it in a new fresh eyes Sometimes we flip it one 100 degrees 180 degrees minus 90. Yeah Okay to see it in fresh eyes and in games we played with it We build it but we doing it the same way. We need to see the problems. We need to see in What areas our students is going to have problems and they will need Help or maybe we should be prepared for it. So this time we take like a random person from the corridor and ask him To play our game. So we need a volunteer. Please someone volunteer. Don't be afraid Yes Thank you What's your name? Okay, this is the wall. Are you ready? Okay, we tell maxim the game as we said before maxim, but wait wait wait a second before we start We need a role playing. Okay. Okay. We all know those students maxim is going to play one of them Yes You want him to be fearful technophobic He knows it all already Help us. He knows it all. Okay. He knows it. He thinks he knows it all. You ready? Do I really have to use the touchpad for this horrible software? No, you have a mouse No, no, it's more like It's inside the role. Yeah, he fooled me already. Yes. Okay. Maxim you need to use this swarm. Okay And get to the apple. Okay by extruding. Okay, and to get to the extrude tool You go to edit mode as we learned yesterday. Okay. Okay. You remember how you go to the extrude Um, I remember I go into the edit mode by tap. Is it right? Yes. Okay. Well, yes And now you need to get the worm to the apple by extruding its edge By extruding the edge the edge. Yes. Oh, okay. So I have to select the edge, right? So for us we write in our mind like I'm looking here. Okay. I need to tell him to select the edge I need to write it somewhere not the point. No, what not the point not the point Not the point. No, the edge. Okay. Ah, yes. I remember it's up here, right? Yes. Okay. Okay. Great. Great. You're doing amazing That's great encouragement. It's very good. Very important And now I can extrude by E. Yes. Okay. Wow. No, you cannot go through the walls Oh, okay. Well, that makes sense. Uh, things complicated, right? Let's try it. This is only level one, you know. Oh, okay It's okay. Great. Amazing. First extrude of his life. Okay. And now you need to extrude the second time Okay, but I first have to like I can't I can't extrude like this, right? Oh amazing, right? So we need to teach him another tool. You see in the tips you have like lop-up cut tool Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I think it's um control R. Yes Ah, and now it's like this yellow thing, right? Yes. Okay. I see. It's incredible Amazing. It's such it's such an easy learning experience. I I don't feel like I'm learning anything new Okay. Thank you very much And now again. Yes. Yes So we here look at our Tester sometimes if we build it together I will be the build the game and give more to test it and some are sometimes otherwise So it's very important to uh to have a fresh eyes to see to give somebody that never played this game before To tell you what's wrong to show you the problems and what you need to clarify. Yeah, okay As you can see he's always a lock in uh is extrude. Uh, it's a specific X Uh, and that's something that we didn't teach. So maybe we should oh, yeah, and also And also for us like uh lately we start to teach with the tool with the toolbar and Back then when we just started we always teach the Shortcuts, but in the beginning, uh, we we understood that it's easier for the student to understand Sorry, thank you very much. Thank you, Maxine. You're amazing So We did it. We did it. He did it again. Thank you very much So we have a prototype and it's working and we need to go through our checklist to see that everything is ready for the next Step if something is unchecked is not ready. We go back and refine the game Okay, adapt the difficulty change the subject. Maybe the the game. It's not amazing should be a puzzle game We don't know. Okay. This is the time to check if it's all fits and we can get to the next step So did he learn how to extrude? Yes Yes If this is like a complicated question for you, we will talk about it in the question. Yes. Yes. Thanks, but it's a good question And so we go through the checklist of our prototype and we start to answer to ourselves Okay, is the subject was clear the game was Clear enough he understand the goal. Maybe I need to add more text Maybe I need to change the game and I need to adapt the difficulty. Is it too easy? It's not interesting for him It's boring. Maybe it's too hard. It's too tedious. He's doing it too many times We don't have half an hour for a game and uh, of course the story was it funny. Did he enjoyed it? Did he Felt engage and have a role in this game or he's just was go from a to b Okay, and if everything is checked correctly We have a working prototype Thank you. Go on. Thank you very much. You finished the prototype And now what? What's next? Now it's time to wrap it up Okay, because the prototype is the most important part because then you know if it's really worth it to continue and make it pretty and make it to make everything tight together so Just you take what you already gained in the prototype and make it As good as you can and it's taking some time. So be prepared for that We do a prototype in 10 minutes now. Yes, it will take you more time to make it complete but be aware that you have to To make sure that the prototype is working before you try to make it pretty we have an archive of Games games we made they are beautiful, but they were nothing. Okay, because At the end of this game we understood that the student doesn't really Gain nothing out of it. Okay. It was so far from the purpose of the tools You're talking about one of our examples, right? Yeah. Okay. Not about this game. No, no, okay No, I want that now lying down in the door It was so far from the from the the actual Purpose of the of those tools that it's worthless So pay attention to that Okay, so we got to the final step of the final round And we hope that we enlightened you and we showed you a new way or maybe Help to refine already stuff that you know and we would like to go one last time of about this method about this presentation so by Using games we make the learning process much more Fun and engaging and when something is fun and we want more from it We are more motivated to learn and learn more and we like to do it again and again and again It's much more memorable. We put those tools to our hands to our like muscle memory And we simplified it to those three states like you need to very carefully carefully match subject to the student and clear all destructions You borrow some rules from games that are familiar and the player can immediately understand and take part of And you put you build a world and you give a role to the player inside Engaging him to have emotions to laugh to feel something when he's learning and and it's very important and That's it. If you like to ask us something if you Want to challenge us challenge us with more examples or if you want something else You we can make you a coffee if you like Yes, thank you We had a question and we yes To go on in blender, which they are like for very simple things you can do very different approaches And how do you go on about explaining all these different approaches without overwhelming the student Um Say the question again, so yeah the question if if I'm not wrong if I understood How we are managed to focus the students in some specific area and and not Not letting him to get lost inside all those multiply options. Yeah But specifically like workflows Like the tool bar, yeah We're testing a lot a lot a lot of those those games and like using those tool bar the tool bar aside We figured out that it's easier also to the students to practice with but also The student to look at what we are doing By me choosing and have those gizmos when I'm choosing something and there is some kind of Communication of you gonna there is this a plus yellow thing we you you're gonna now Extend more data here So it's communicate better in the first learning learning steps And I think it's not a coincidence that blender did that And introduce those tools lately Another question here Yeah, so the question was How do we deal with different levels of students in the same classroom that can be It can be very difficult We don't want one to be bored and want to be extremely challenged. So One way is to have like multiple games Like there is the basic game that all should do and then like more advanced one for the one that already Did the easy game we use scenes like we really like scenes in blender files So you have multiply multi Scenes that each one of it is a game. So one of it could be a Harder game or more advanced game So we send him like go to scene six. You will find something more challenging for you specifically And more like the tools are the same, but the level you use them is a bit different So here like when you have multiple games It's can help Like the more advanced student to understand more things you can do with it when the more Beginner student needs only the basic level and feel comfortable with it Yes Yes, we we try to adjust Like the learning to the student Okay, when when there is a student that wants to learn more he will learn more We cannot stop him. We can only help him Okay, but the basic level that we teach we will Make sure that all the student will get to the basic level if someone exceed and go beyond Amazing we will help him on his journey But our main focus is to help first especially if it's a beginner a course or a Or a class we we want them all to get to the same level at first Yeah, the the advanced Student will not satisfied with what we do actually And he always and it's a good thing. We'll start like to Search in outside the course and he start like to see advanced tutorials and Go back to us and ask us some advanced questions And he's like the students that probably Gonna really take what we teach To the next level to the next level and use it in his own career Yeah, yeah our in our last you asked about What kind what age of students we are targeting for In our last course we had a 14 year old Kid And 72 year old Designer a pens pensioner Yeah, okay, and they both enjoyed it the same and learned all the new tools So there is not like for games. There is not a specific age We all like to play and it's helping in all the levels It's easier of course when the class is more like in the same level and same age It's easier for them all but we are not We are not defining like by age And 80 percent of them probably will keep it as a hobby So That's it. Thank you again very much for listening to us Again, we are friday lab and we are We'll be happy if you contact us and ask us questions show us Your projects and prototype and ask us what we think we will love to help and That's it. Yes. Thank you. Thank you very much


So Jennifer, should we get started? We can do introductions if that's helpful to get you, Tom. And then we can do some, on our agenda, we've got reviewing minutes from two prior meetings. So from April 6th and April 11th in a public comment. And then finalizing our stipend review program. Which will be presented to city council tonight. So we've got like reviewing the feedback, reviewing what Cameron just sent out. And have a couple of questions as part of that. And then talk about the pre-launch survey and getting that out for talking about the city council meeting tonight. It's next week, just for clarity. Next week. Thank you. Yes, the 27th. Today's only the 20th. See, it's not June yet. And then I'm also going to add in just like we like debrief about the meeting. Before going to self education, learning around people's report back from other city committee meetings, etc. So I'm good. Any thing we also want to make sure we can cover. Yeah, I may have to leave if we if we run over nine o'clock because I have to go at nine to so let's let's do it in a clip. But great. Hello Tom Shayna. I'm on Ken Street. Yeah, you share crowds. And I'm sure I'll pass Michael. Michael Sherman. I've been a member of this since we started and I live on College Street. And I've been on a bunch of other committees over the course of my 36 years here. Jeremy. Good morning, Jeremy Bodry live on Elm Street in Montpelier. I've been on the committee. Oh, over a year. I'm not sure how long now, but nice to see you. Cameron. Hi, I'm Cameron Neidermeyer. I'm the assistant city manager and we are neighbors. And Jennifer. My name is Jennifer Moore and I'm a city council member for district three. I live on Cedar Hill Lane. And this is my first meeting with everybody. Happy to be here. I'm Tom McCown. I live on Jory Street. A couple houses down from Cameron. And I'm writing an article for the bridge. Awesome. So folks want to pull up the meeting notes from April 6 and April 11. They're on the calendar. If that's I am. I'm going to make a motion to approve both minutes for any amendments. I can't make the motion because I wrote one of them. Oh, that's right. Okay. I'll make it. Sorry. And I'm like, and I think Jeremy was going for one. Okay. Um, I'm going to make a motion to approve both minutes for any amendments. I can't make the motion because I wrote one of them. Oh, that's right. Okay. I'll make it. Sorry. I think Jeremy was going for one. Okay. Um, I'll make a motion to approve both at some minutes. No amendments. Um, Great. We had two seconds. All in favor. I am opposed. Great. Cool. Um, and then let's talk about the stipend review program or stipend program. Um, So Cameron, um, sent out the email with, you know, a couple of very minor edits to be honest. I did not notice the edits when I looked through them. Um, but then had a couple of like new ideas or questions. If you want to talk to us. So the edits that I sent out, um, and Tom, once they're approved here, I will send them to you. Um, Um, I'll send them to you. Um, I'll send them to you. Um, I'll send them to the pilot program. Mentioning that it's a pilot program. Understanding that has an end. Um, So that was the only edit that I made outside of adding, um, something that came up at your committee chair meeting. About sub. Um, Like submit meetings. Like, um, why can't I think of the word? I'm looking for. Subcommittees. Thank you. Um, So I think that the, um, Um, I think that the, um, Um, I think that the staff and I think it for a pilot program would be, um, uh, hard to manage. Uh, because it's, it's difficult to verify who's meeting when. Uh, if the committee chair isn't there. Because that's sort of what's built into this as far as, as what, um, Supports our audit. Right. Is approval that somebody was there. Um, And subcommittees by their very nature are smaller groups that it's going to be harder for us to verify and keep track of. So, um, Our recommendation for y'all would be to not include subcommittees in your pilot program. And that if that is feedback that you get at the end. Um, we can work with it and work with y'all to come up with a better way to handle that. So, um, That's my recommendation for y'all do whatever you want with that. Um, Uh, and then we could get into some of the success measures. Um, but, uh, that was the edits to the, to the documents. Yeah. What committees do have subcommittees? Or regularly have companies. All any, I don't even know. Yeah. We warned the meetings. That's, they are warned, but here's the thing is that they're supposed to be warned, but that doesn't mean that they get warned. Yeah. Yeah, that. We're not open in that can worms. Um, Um, That makes sense to me. I don't know if there's more discussion. That was held in the meeting or yeah. Okay. So approval for having it just be committees, not subcommittees. Sounds like cool. Um, And then. Yeah, success measures. Should we move to that or any other edits to the, sorry, let's, let's finish one thing at a time. So we've got the stipend policy. We've got the attendance record form and we've got the stipend registration form. Were there any edits to any of those? No, I had none. I think I just, we have the question last week about, or whatever it was two weeks ago about the attendance record. And if that could be made online too, like an addition or emailed in is, and I just, that's, um, Saw the email or mail, but that there's no online form. Is that right? So, um, I was trying to see, I had a meeting with our website host the other day. Yeah, a new website. Yeah. And so they, I don't know about adding new widgets because I don't, I don't know who would maintain that widget. So, um, I think it will be, it will be available online. So people can click it and download the PDF, but I don't know if it'll be fillable online. That's something I've got to work on the back end with. So it'll be available online. I don't know if it'll be fillable, but I'm going to try to work on that. And we can start off like this and then. One, maybe. One thought, kind of a halfway measure might be, and I don't know who has the skills to do this, but to create a PDF document that you can input text into, that is then emailed. It might, it might save some time for folks. That's a template, right? Is what you're saying. I will make a note to make, try to ensure that that's what type of PDF gets uploaded to the website. I'm supposed to figure out how to do that for my work today. I need to have people sign a thing. And so I will, I was looking into Adobe to be able to make an editable PDF. I'm feeling very millennial right now because I'm like, I don't really know. I don't really know how to do that. I'll figure it out. I just don't know. I will say, I will say what's been on my mind. I walk past post office boxes all the time. It's not such a big deal. And then open. Stick it in the mail. Yeah. And we got to support the post office or it'll go away. Um, Okay. Thank our Congress postal service is saved for now. Um, okay. Let me revisit the question. Yeah. Any, any edits to these documents before going into, um, success measures. Okay. Well, so I, I've been doing a lot of back work on this for y'all. Um, I've been doing was making sure that we like, along with your, um, pre-survey or pre-law or wow words, your pre-survey, you're also tracking these, um, measures. And I thought they were pretty good ones. Um, making sure we're tracking the amount of applications in general to make sure to see if they've increased or decreased. I get those directly to my inbox. Um, I think we're going to be doing some of these pre and post stipend implementation.  Was adding a demographic form to our online, um, applications. The suggestion would be that this isn't shareable and we hold it ourselves. I think. Well, you know, we'd have to talk to our lawyer about it. I don't know if it would be discussed like public record, but, um, we hold other information, um, private, and we've redacted it before we give it to council, like email addresses and phone numbers because they're not part of a committee yet. Right. They're not like a public entity yet. So, um, we hold that information back. And the idea was that we put an optional demographic for, like a demographic form on the application that people have to fill out online to be part of committee. Um, to be part of committees, but hold that information from people making decisions about including that person or not, but just for tracking purposes. Um, and then even saying in the form, this is because we're trying to, you know, increase diversity. It has no bearing on decision making. We just want to know. And so I didn't know if that would be something that you all would advocate for, but it was an idea that came up and I wanted to discount the idea. So, so to be clear, the city council members would not get that information. That was the recommendation, um, was to not give council that information. That seems like a real concern. Yeah. That seems like legally we would have to, just like from my non legal brain and does like ethically, that seems like they should. Yeah. Keep that separate. Um, before actually, maybe, oh, let's keep it great. Sorry. Oh, I just wanted to know if what was the purpose of collecting the demographic data is for. So hope like the idea would be, and so this is why it's just an idea. Y'all might not like the idea, but, um, so that people can self report their demographics so you can see if it changes pre and. Well, that's the problem is we're asking people to do a survey to tell us what their demographics are now, but then how do we get that information from people who are applying post stipend, right? We'd ask everyone to do the survey during like, when they get on a committee or how would we want to implement that? So I figured. The idea would be this would streamline that for, for this group and streamline that data collection. I think that makes all make sense long term to see the change in trends, right? Like over year, but like, right. It's awesome. Like Michael's been on C. Jack for, I don't even know what seven years now. And so you're only filling that four amount. When you first apply, you don't have to fill it out when you're reappointed, right? Or like, is there any. Right. It would just be on the form that you have to fill out online. And so it would be sort of supporting that survey that you're doing that's asking existing committee members what their demographics are. And then we could collect new ones because there's no mechanism to do that. And it's all optional, right? Yeah, technically any of the form. Lines are optional. No one has to fill out everything. I do think like for the purposes of this pilot, it's not necessarily going to be super helpful because we also, I mean. Right. I think we'll also have to do the survey. Right. It'll be a look at like who knew is joining, but that. Yeah. We'll have to. I feel like we need like a grad student who works on this stuff to like help us out with like this like data collection and analysis, but like we can, we can figure this out. You just have me. Sorry. But you know, to be like, okay, I have all the new people who have joined who have applied and then who have joined what it, what is, what is, what is that demographic? And, and sorry, and the demographic questions would probably be pretty similar to the survey. Right. It would not just look at like race and gender, but also like home ownership and basically. Exactly the questions that y'all are asking on your survey and then plunk them in the application for committees. Cool. I don't know hard time with this one. It rubs me the wrong way. But, you know, I'm, I'm like the white guy who'd never hesitate to fill out demographic information. So it's, I can't. Without having that perspective, I can't say would this like give me pause if I was not me. So I'm really, I have a hard time saying, yeah, this is, this is what we should do. So I asked about the demographic information. I'm Native American and so anytime I'm filling out a form and I'm like, why do they want to know, but then also on the other hand, you know how important certain statistics are and so as an Indigenous person, it's up to me to decide, right? Do I want to tell them this information or not? And hopefully if there are any folks that are in alignment with that process, maybe they'll be able to make their own decision whether or not they want to share those things. It's a, it's a weird kind of slippery slope, right? Like you want to be seen and known and counted, right? But then also it feels a little sketchy, especially for Native people. We're not really into, we're not going to share anything anymore, but I hear what you're saying, Jeremy. Thanks for that. I know for like, I remember like in doing research or whatever, like the demographic questions for like, you know, academic research is supposed to come like at the very, very end and be like a totally optional, like addition on the very end, even if that's like critical to the pieces that you're asking, because if you ask someone their race at the beginning, it like changes how they answer some of the, you know, like other questions, you know, it's like there's all this other stuff around it too. And then I know for like hiring stuff for in my work, like we've done, you do the application and then it's, there's a, like a, and at the end page it's like, and we would love, like we want to make sure that we're hiring from a diverse set, you know, of folks who are applying after you fill out your application. If you want to click this link and take it to a different survey form, we greatly appreciate it, you know, and it's something like 60% of people, I fill out the separate form, but like, so it's totally divorced from the actual application. And so I just want to, I don't, I'm like, I don't, I think that is necessary for hire. I mean, and that's it is like, is this like kind of a version of hiring to be able to, does that make sense to try to divorce the committee application from the survey? So yes, however, like if you want to, if we want, if, if y'all are interested in having the city add demographic questions to the application, we don't have the technical ability to like separate that out. Right. It would need to just be like a little blurb that says you don't have to fill this out. This is why we're asking. It won't be, it won't be given to council. It won't be able to fill this out.  And this is for a continued discussion and maybe review. To mock up a version of the committee application form. And that gives us a little bit something more concrete. And also maybe get some feedback from some individuals who we think have a good perspective. Yes, I can do that. Thanks. I don't think you have any discussion. Any discussion on. Dispers too. I don't know what that. I think Shane is. Suggestion though, is it interesting because that. That would presumably not have any name attached to it. Right. So. So the, the information is gathered on a separate form. It is anonymous. which is the demographic information, not having anyone's name on that. That might make it more complicated, but it's a holy separate form. It's just submitting it separately. I mean, I guess I'm not thinking very creatively and I could put maybe, if I don't know, I'd have to play around. Maybe I could put a link to like a survey monkey that says like fill this out for demographic information. It's just like clicks a link. I think I could be creative about it if that's what you all want to see. So just a thought for you, last year I attended some meetings of a school board subcommittee where they were looking at how they, a whole bunch of issues with diversity, equity and inclusion. They were dealing with exactly the same question about how to measure whether they're making progress. And they were dealing with the same issue of confidentiality versus asking people to share information. I don't know what their resolution was, but the superintendent's office may have information about if they came up with any great ideas and if they did, that might save you some time. And that was the Montpelier school board? Montpelier school board. So the superintendent was one of the people, she was leading the committee, so. Awesome, thank you. You're welcome. So I can bring back more to y'all on that, Shayna. Yeah, and I think, because we can also start getting the word out about the Scythons. Like, I think this is not contingent on the launch of this project, right? So I think my only other question on this though was of just running it by creative discourse, knowing, you know, we have a couple of those, a couple of meetings set up and I assume this is on the docket for them too, right? And so maybe by the next meeting or meeting after running this proposal by them too. Sure, of course, Cole. Yeah. Okay, and then of any concern, question, reaction to the other tracking measures, so just tracking the number of applications last year to this year, looking at the vacancies, pre and post stipends. Oh, so easy. Yeah, thank you, really great work. Thank you. Do we, I should have asked this question before, do we need to vote to approve the three forms, the policies? It didn't hurt. So it's a matter of record that we adopted them. So I'll make that motion. A second. 30 seconds, all in favor. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Great. Motion passes. Thank you. Yeah, nice work all. Okay, should we talk about the transition to talking about the city council presentation? Good, go ahead. Next Wednesday, the 27th, 630-ish, I'm making that up because it won't actually be 630. We try very hard to get all of y'all who are doing group presentations of external folks first, so. I didn't know that was an intention. That makes a lot of sense. That's great, thank you. Try very hard. Yeah. Camera works really hard in this meeting. Let me tell you what. So yeah, so I, I feel like we are so focused on our presentation to the committee on committees. That I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this. And I guess I'm just like, you know, our goals for the committee on committees was pretty different. You know, it was like to get the word out about it and just solicit feedback and to have people share, you know, their stories and experiences of what they're working on in their committees. And I, even though the goals are pretty different, I think then what the city council goals presentations would be, I think a lot of the content could be pretty similar of like walking through the committee statement project, you know, hearing if there's any feedback, things like that. So yeah, didn't know if folks had, yeah. Or like, that's not me stating my opinion for how we could start having this conversation and didn't know if folks had other facts. Well, you would circulate the forms that we just, the documents we just passed would go ahead of before the council meeting, right? Right, so they would, okay. I mean, it seems pretty straightforward. Yeah. Here's what we've developed for the pilot process and all that. And are we asking for their approval Cameron? Or yeah, okay. Oh, okay. But the money has already been set aside, correct? So we're just asking for the same approval of the documents that we just made, that we just did. Yes, that's my understanding. And, you know, Jennifer can fill out anything that I'm missing, but my understanding was they, you know, you had asked for the money and said, we will come back with how we're gonna manage it. And that's just sort of where you're at. And I think getting saying like, we've already gotten feedback from committee chairs and everyone seemed good with how this is gonna go. So it makes sense to me. And I just want to, this is probably pretty obvious, but I'm just like saying a few sentences at the beginning of this, like, here's who we are and here was our charge. And here's why we became a committee in 2018 as just like a way of grounding the conversation too. That before, yeah, before saying all those things. So we'll share the documents. We will, should we talk about roles or other materials that we would wanna share? Well, the only other one which is not yet a document is how we're going to monitor how we're gonna evaluate. I think that should be included in the report that we have a plan for that. Yeah. But I don't think we have to go any further than that. I think some council members really appreciate a lot of information and some like it wrapped up. So you can find a little hybrid spot where I know maybe one or two folks that may ask a few questions, not because they're not interested, but just because that's how they are. They just like to have as much information as possible if that's helpful. Well, let's really do diligence. I think that's fine. Can't say much now because I'm here. I do like the idea of including something about the evaluation. Just here's how we anticipate evaluating the success of the program. I think probably into four parts of having intro to CJA, why we're doing stipends, about the stipend process, what it's gonna look like, logistics, all of that. Evaluation of the project, what success will look like, how we're gonna measure it, questions. Sound good? Do we wanna have a presentation or just the materials you think is good? I don't think you have to go through all of it. It's all again, if you're there calculating them. Are you gonna put them up on the screen or? I'm gonna call myself attention to that. Straightforward, it's the policy piece so maybe need some discussion. Great. So no need to create any new materials is what I'm hearing, but just be able to have some discussion. Cool. Does anyone wanna take on any of those pieces in particular? Can that Michael and Jeremy? I don't have any preference. And can you guys make it on the 27th? Oh yeah, I think so. I'm happy to help, but don't feel strongly about needing to do that if it's really, if you need some help, Shayna, let me know. Shayna, I can help sort of summarize the evaluation piece of it if you'd like. Great. Yeah, I think that's the only thing that I, because it's not, we don't have it written down yet. I think it would be good to have that. But otherwise, I think one person doing presentation is efficient and it's okay. We can be there here and answer questions if you want, but I don't think it's necessary. Okay, it's all clear I'm doing most of the talking. That's pre-use. No, okay. Oh, we were talking. You're asking. Okay, go ahead, Tom. Great. Yes, I just wanted to ask about process. So this would become a city policy, not simply a committee policy. So in terms of process, what does the council need to do to approve that? Can they vote on it that next Wednesday night? And then it's all, it's in place or does it have to be warned ahead of time or anything else that can be voted at that meeting? Yes. Okay, thank you. Yeah, so just, sorry, Tom, just I shouldn't have done this at the beginning, but we went through kind of a two year process with these consultants creative discourse to come up with these equity assessment recommendations of what things that we could do as a committee. And Siphons is one of those kind of the project that we've been tackling for the last little bit. We've been asking all these, yeah, as we talked about in January, you know, of like getting all these recommendations and have a commitment as part of the budget starting July 1st to be able to implement these Siphons and then, but we're basically given free rein and like making a proposal on how to, you know, so we got the money for the Siphons, but not the process. And so this is a saying, okay, this is how we're planning on spending the funds for Siphons. This is what our process is gonna look like and how we're gonna evaluate this pilot project. Sure, thank you. I understand all that and the background. I just wanted to check on the, sometimes for policies, I don't specifically know how it's always done on my pillar, but sometimes policies have to be posted and they have to be, you know, available to the public for a certain number of days before the council, before a group votes on them. So if that's not the, I just wanna make sure that wasn't the process. Not for this, because it's a council administered thing. It's not impacting staff. It's not impacting like union staff anyway. And it's just a decision that council can make. Yeah. Perfect, thank you. One thing that's coming up for me, Shayna, when we last met with council, you know, we had walked through a few different scenarios for how this pilot might run, which some were quite complicated actually. And I think we got that really helpful feedback from the person in Essex that really shifted our thinking around just a pile of money first come first serve. So it seems like you would want to explain that pretty well because this is the one thing that was kind of a major issue that we resolved. I'm just writing that down for myself, yep. Thanks. Any other ideas, reflections for this council presentation? I think it's a good, thank you, Jeremy, for mentioning that we've worked with other organizations. I think that's important to also mention. I think I was also just like ending it with like an encouragement for everyone to get the word out about these stipends because that's, you know, obviously the most critical part of all, this is saying come be a part of city governance. I think we're depending on Tom for that. Yes, thank you, Tom.  Actually, if I may say, I think that's probably gonna be much more effective than us putting the word out ourselves. That, you know, it comes through you, Tom, it's in the bridge, which is read by a lot of people. So that's a very important link and thank you for being here and helping us over that. You're welcome. Starting July 1st, we participate in government. Get a stipend, headlines. So, great. Got lots of vacancies. Look out, get lots of participation. Cool. Before diving into the rest of our agenda, real quick, of just any like reactions, feedback, responses from our committee and committees.  And then of course, that's like when you're like, it's canceled. And then I was like, I mean, I was actually ended up only, I thought I was gonna miss it all. So it wasn't that bad. But thank you guys so much for stepping in and making it happen. And I apologize for the chaos that, that caused and it was a pretty small group. But yeah, I'm just like anything, any other reflections, things we wanna say. Yeah. That was my own concern that it was a very small group, not just a pretty small group, it was a very small group. That's very small, yeah. And us, I mean, we outnumbered, we pretty much outnumbered our audience. And I wonder what that means. Does that mean that the committee chairs are just not interested in doing this on any kind of regular basis because we had talked about doing it again, should we have twice a year or, and I think we need to get some handle on whether this is something that they think is important enough for us to continue doing it. Cause we put more time into planning it than we did actually during the presentation. So there's a real imbalance here. And so I think we should really decide what we're gonna do if we wanna do this again. Can I reach out to the folks who weren't there and like that's not a problem, yeah, okay. You know, you could ask us at the time, when we did it, was that inconvenient? Are you just attending too many meetings and you don't have time for any more? Or, you know, what was it? Offer some options and then, let me do that and circle back next, I mean, or maybe probably in a couple of weeks, not next evening, but to get a chance to hear back from folks. Cool. We like to have on our agenda, although I feel like we haven't been very good at holding it recently because of other things, having a self-education and learning round table of being able to share other learnings or participations or books or media content or anything else that has to do with social, racial, economic justice to be able to share with, share amongst ourselves. And so, yeah, we have that and just any, let's combine that with any report backs from any other related city committee meetings and other things happening in the city that we should know about. Here's popcorn if anyone wants to go. Well, just so you know, at the next council meeting, council will be talking about the Gert and Gizebo again. And so if y'all want to participate in that conversation that is happening that night as well. I can just share two things. One is that Montpelier has been included in different, this like municipal equity index on municipal equality index. I don't remember which one it is from the human rights campaign where they look at how the city, you know, kind of is evaluated for LGBTQ plus folks. And, you know, they can just like fill out the survey and kind of get evaluated on different policies and they do it for all of the city capitals as well as a bunch of other cities. And so Montpelier has been a part of that for a couple of years and they just got noticed that will be part of it again. I mean, obviously because we're still a city capitol and all of that. So just FYI that that is coming out. And that that also just, you know, dovetails with the, you know, recent murder of a trans woman in the middle of sex who's very closely connected to a lot of folks in Montpelier and, you know, lived and worked in Montpelier for, you know, a long time and all of that. And so I think that was recognized. That was the first I'd heard about it was at the last city council meeting. And obviously just like a lot of, the more like coming off of the heels of a lot of trans sentiment happening nationally is really concerning for a lot of reasons. And so just wanting to kind of hold that in our hearts as well. And of course, if, you know, folks know or feel, just to say, I'm sorry to bring back real sadness at the end of this meeting and of just if there's anyone wants to say any words of memory or remembrance or, or to transition, transition out like a few minutes there. I just, I'll say that I just want to thank all of y'all for taking on these sort of harder conversations and being real thought leaders for the city. This will be a very exciting program. And I'm just, I'm excited to see it get launched. You all have been working really hard for a really long time. And I'm glad to be part of it. So thank you. Thanks for your hard work on it, Cameron. You really did the legwork on it. This is, this is a rewarding legwork. Okay. This is rewarding. This is something good is coming out of this. So, it's exciting. I understand. But thank you in any case. Thank you, Michael. Well, I, as a member of a BIPOC community and somebody who is, you know, I got a family that I'm trying to raise and I have a new job that makes, that I make more money at, but historically I've not made very much money. And so offering a stipend to folks is a lot. It's huge because we're taking time out of our personal life, right? And so to honor that, I think is wonderful. And I don't know whose idea it was, but Chimi Gwetch from the bottom of my heart for that because I think it will make a difference for a lot of, especially working family people, single parents, college students, just people that want to help, want to be involved in our city, but just are struggling financially. So thank you so much for spearheading this, y'all. Yeah, let's make it happen. Cool. Well, see you all next Wednesday night. And I think that's it. And then after that, we can, once we get this happening, then we can move on to some of the other things that we've got on our upcoming agenda items like proactive educational events, outreach to immigrant refugee communities, and for Elk club, property discussions, other things too, but let's get through this. Yeah, it's gonna be great. So thanks all. Awesome. See y'all.


First question is from health coach Liz. What's the difference between strength training and hypertrophy training? Don't they boast both produce muscle mass? They do both produce muscle mass Resistance training done generally speaking. I know it's weird. Yeah done generally speaking with reps anywhere between one to 30 They're all pretty much gonna build muscle But when you get down to the specifics some rep ranges build more Strength in the low rep range others might build more stamina and endurance obviously the higher rep ranges Now if you do a short-term study and you try to compare rep ranges and you see you know Which one builds the most muscle you and they've done studies like this Typically they'll find that these kind of mid-range rep ranges build a little bit more muscle this 8 to 12 rep range tends to do that But here's the problem with that the problem with that is if you stay in that rep range for too long It actually stops working and then you build more muscle by switching out of it In fact some of the greatest muscle gains I've ever seen in clients We're taking people that always trained and the 8 to 12 rep range and then just move them out of it And then they see these huge, you know gains So I think it is important to understand the differences But don't get caught up in them realize that all of them if your goal is to build muscle and develop a balanced physique Then you should train in all of the rep ranges the only people that should stick Primarily in one but even then I'll recommend that they move out every once well or people who have to to compete in that particular rep range So if you're a power lifter, you're probably gonna spend most of your time in the lower rep ranges For example, if you're an athlete and you want to build strength endurance You might spend more of your time in the you know higher rep ranges But for the average person you want to play with all of them Well, I think you should have clarified first that the rep ranges for each one of those what represents them, right? So we're assuming that everybody knows that strength training is the you know One to kind of five rep range or one to six rep range and high hypertrophy is somewhere between eight to twelve rep range So that's the difference between the two of them is is is the rep ranges that we're talking about and Technically rest periods and tempo that can be in there like so there's a I forget where I came a quad came across this This like infographic that had like it was like a quadrant and you had like your strength training Up to your power strength hypertrophy and then endurance, right? So, you know and your your power is like in the under two under two reps So like the single rep and it's fast one one one Tempo so you're just working on explosive training that would be power and then strength Would technically be somewhere between the two and the six rep range and then your tempo is like a one two one type of tempo for that and longer rest periods and then you start going into the hypertrophy, which is you know eight to twelve rep range 90-second type of rest periods tempo being more like a two to two type of Tempo or a four to two and then you get into your endurance, which is like, you know over 15 rep Rep range and short to no rest periods. So that's really like and again Those are I mean, I think debating over all that like which one builds more muscle Yeah, is is pointless because no matter which category you fall under whether your strength training power training endurance training or hypertrophy training The key is to move in and out all if your main goal is to build muscle burn body fat Build a better physique all around from performance to how it looks everything It's it's most advantageous for you to move Through all of them and reap the benefits of of all of them now in those studies that prove that, you know That rep range was probably, you know, the best for building muscle Was that just mainly about like circumference and the size of muscle or we're actually talking about like actually Promoting more muscle fibers both. Yeah. Yeah They're talking about again in a short window. It's in a it's you're talking about a six to 12 weeks I mean, here's the bottom line The bottom line is all those rep ranges build muscle and they'll have different benefits And they're gonna build a lot of muscle if it's new if it's new for you If you haven't trained, you know, the if you look at all of our maps programs and we Target different avatars. So there's you know Maps programs for more bodybuilder oriented people maps programs for people who like to do Unconventional training for people who like to train more athletically and so on we have all these different programs But if you look at inside all of our programs all of them take you through all the different rep ranges No matter what your goal is no matter what because there's value in all of it one of the worst mistakes One of the big mistakes anybody can make When with their long-term training strategy is to stick with the same kind of programming for too long No matter how great your program and programming refers to Exercises sets reps rest periods essentially the structure and style of the workout If if you stay in a style for too long, it just stops working Doesn't matter how great it worked for you to begin with Everything works nothing works forever. The body's always trying to get more efficient and better at whatever you're doing And so that's just what happens. Totally. I mean when I so the first maps program created was maps on a bulk It's a very good general muscle builder Metabolism boost boosters great for strength and it starts with the phase one which is low reps And what's great about that and one of the reasons why I put that phase first when I first wrote that So I knew a lot of people would get the program who didn't who rarely trained in that in that phase That were used to training an 8 to 12 or 15 to 20 reps because that's what people tend to do So then they do the program get in that first thing and it will blow them away Right out the gates because it was a new stimulus. They never had trained Consistently in that rep range. That's by far one of the biggest mistakes long-term speaking is sticking Too long and one thing and getting caught up in this kind of stuff This is where data and studies can lead people wrong because the studies aren't wrong Yes, 8 to 12 reps in these, you know three month studies show that you'll build a little bit more Muscle size in 8 to 12 by the way, it's a little bit. It's not a huge difference. Okay It's not like double the muscle. It's a little bit of a difference, but they'll show that so what happens is people see that Like that's the one I'm gonna train in I'm never gonna train it never gonna leave and you're you end up missing out on so much More muscle and strength because of that. It's a big problem Well, the truth is both of them build muscle mass and both of them can also not build muscle mass, right? Right. So if whatever one year you've been doing for months and months and months if you've been sticking to that Consistently just simply switching to the other one is gonna build the most muscle. So just keep that in mind It's so funny too because as a when I first started working out and again, I train my clients so much better than myself This is I just thought I must have fallen for this at least three or four times if not more where I'd Move into a new style of training and I get great gains right out the gates, right? So like three four weeks. I'm like, oh my god, I'm building muscle. I'm getting stronger This is the key and then I would stick to it like hard-headed Lee until it was just Obvious that it stopped working for me And then I'd be like what I need to figure out what's going on there to read some article that says Oh, if you do 20 reps it it builds more muscle I try 20 reps and then of course it's gonna work and then I'd be like, oh, this is the key You know, this is the this is what I was missing and I stick to that for way too long Took me a long time to be like wait, maybe it's changing. Maybe that's the key Yeah, maybe the key is to move in and out of these different ranges