years through the 1930s and the 1970s the bobcat was never at any risk of becoming in danger at the peak of the trapping in 1980 where there were 3,090 licenses sold to trappers never at any risk of becoming in danger and this is from your background on the bobcats despite the lack of any careful consideration intentional management strategy Vermont's bobcat population persevered throughout the bounty era while sustaining high annual harvest thereby demonstrating the species incredible resiliency, adaptability and abundance this is from like 1994 this is a review of all of that and reveals a remarkable stable population structure throughout this time period indicated a widespread abundant population that is conservatively harvest at levels well below which occurred during the bounty years and this I was questioning about this when I brought this up at the last board meeting this is what you said so now in 2015 there was 876 trapping licenses were sold the survey that the department did in 2006 showed that on average only about 54% actually trapped in a given year so that's roughly the benefit of the doubt 476 people that are trapping 6.15 million acres which is not very many the department also showed data that the catch of bobcats drops off about 40% after the first 15 days due to weather conditions weariness of trap awareness and lack of trap for effort after my interpretation of the data the extension of the trapping season for two weeks would be very minimal and then I came from with all the data that I read and that's why I voted yes the problem with not voting yes it's never going to get out to the real public you're going to have you know fractions that don't want it for sure but the majority of the public is never going to hear that and that's like I said that's why I voted yes it's never going to get out so we can talk about it more and it can be brought to the public just missed I'm going to simplify the line a little bit more I actually grew up in the woods only been lost three quarters of an hour in my entire life the reason is because I learned how to see the forest through the trees I can see the forest through the trees here we're going to get our thoughts back if we're taking out by extra trapping animals that are not overpopulated the department said on both otters and bobcats that we're not looking to take out anymore the legislature that's behind the trees people aren't seeing and I will not vote for any extra traffic unless we're trying to get a nuisance out of the way do it I mean our national politics everybody's getting polarized there are people running for office that can just they're going to lose because they cannot see the forest that's where I say no way am I going to clobber this department if I do a yes vote on either one of those that will clobber this department a lot of people do not see that we are so polarized as a nation right now it's stunned that the day lights up we've got a guy running for president right now doesn't stand for snowballs chance of hell because he is on his principles and forget the forest just the trees that's all he's looking at I think people have to understand the first vote is not authorizing the extension of bobcat traffic all it is is bringing it up for a discussion a few years ago we had a first vote on an early muzzle of this season it was unanimous the second vote it got defeated 13 to 1 so all it is is to bring it up for a discussion so everybody has their day in court so it's not like we're saying yeah we're going to extend bobcat season we're going to talk about it is what it says I think there was a lot of misunderstanding in the last month's meeting about our meeting versus public hearing and a one minute time limit is not enough for anyone to voice their opinion and I think if it does get brought up for discussion then everyone has an opportunity to really voice their opinion and say what they need to say and be heard thanks I'm still really caught up on a little incidental issue I mean there's really no any incidentals for any season and I just think I really need to talk about that more perspective somehow I don't know how that would be addressed like if incidentals are happening I mean it's a very small number of whole percent of the cash from what I read in the documents but yeah I know incidentals for otters occur in the summer when people are trying to kill the beavers that are plugging their culverts and that's when the majority of them happen but it's not what we want of course at the risk of being redundant I just briefly summarized how the department came to its recommendation we wanted to give you a recommendation based on the science which is what we did we know from the bobcat harvest is that the trend is increasing still a small number of animals relative to the population but the trend is increasing both for hunting and trapping we know that the amount of effort is variable based on a number of factors including health price weather effort can change from year to year and we know that really our main tool for setting harvest is life of the season so we don't limit the number of trappers we don't limit the number we educate you about per total across the city so our main ability to regulate that harvest is by the life of the season and as always we take the most conservative incautious approach we can take you can rightfully point it out that we have never come to anywhere close to threatening this species in the state I would be horrified if we ever did because that's we have an extremely good and proud record in the US and Canada and including in Vermont of not putting any species in jeopardy by regulated hunting and trapping so we never want to even get close to that not that I'm not suggesting you would anymore than we would because you agree with us on this now we take the cautious and cautionary approach always particularly when there's things that we don't know that we like to know that's how we came to our recommendation I don't disagree with anything that was said around the table here about other considerations other things the way or balance but that's not how we came to our recommendations we looked at it from the from the harvest numbers anything you want to add to that I think I'd only say that if I recall and I could spend maybe two or three weeks if I looked at it I think that the reason one of the concerns we had was really specific to certain WMUs or certain biophysical regions that there's not a statewide concern that there's some some questions that remain in certain regions of the state that we'd like to resolve for me personally as the process went through one of the biggest complaints I had was the processing of emails from other states I just made a quick list of this I bought one that was just a cut and paste one that you all received over and over again from Jane O. from Colorado Springs Valerie G. from New York Peter M. from North Royalton, Ohio Michelle from Brisbane the same thing to say Mike F. from Geneseo, New York Eric H. from Battle Creek, Michigan Tara C. from Santa Clara, California Elle Melville from Guelph, Vermont which I thought was a very clever description of where they were from I mean obviously it was fake E&MY from Linwood, Washington it was on and on and frankly that made me feel quite spiteful going towards my email to open it up and say okay sure we represent people of Vermont very well but when this is the approach that folks use to try to communicate with me I find that it's breaking down the system and therefore what do I have to go on if the out of state emails are sort of like intending to influence the process which is fine but they start to overwhelm the system we have for processing information then it becomes less valuable as a whole and I tell you what I want to take ownership of this fish wallet board personally for myself and I want you to have ownership of it yourself but if it's infiltrated like this and that continues it makes it a less honest system it makes it so that we really can't communicate as well and that's a problem and it's not necessarily a problem because you folks can all fix but I will throw that out there so if this continues I would argue that emails suddenly become less effective for all of us and that's a bad thing we want to be transparent we want to be communicating but when you see 40, 50 of those lined up one on top of another that's a huge frustration for me and I don't want to take away all of this but I think we need to know who our audience is and we darn well I better be able to say ah okay, Louisville, Vermont I know where that is it does make a difference here's my rant any other comments on this yes, thanks last month the board and the straw boat were unanimously to make the traffic surveys mandatory is that going to help get better data absolutely is that a small piece of it or is that a major piece I think it's a major piece you know when you're talking about the small number of animals taken that we're talking about and then you add to that the relatively small percentage about a third of the trapper surveys that are responding you get to a very small sample size especially if you're trying to do so I think it will make a huge difference and we'll have a much better handle on what's effort related harvest and what's population related harvest would that take two or three years I expect so I expect two or three years I think that's a reasonable guess for you I think also the fact that this BTA supports this should mean that the returns we get will go up regardless I think the mandatory clearly is going to help but the fact that there's a lot of recognition now in the part of the BTA that this is kind of critical information I think that will help together response that we're looking for I wanted to clarify I voted yes on straw vote on that proposal mainly to continue the discussion but the fact that there was a close vote and was voted down to see revisited in two or three years when there is more complete data I would say one more thing which is this is a little bit of an unusual process because of the amount of interest about it in it because of the complexity of some of the questions we're trying to answer I think we did more analysis on the front end than we normally would do before our first vote I don't know that there's a lot more that Chris can do in terms of analysis on his end of what the daddy's got I think what he can do is like you suggest he can come to the next meeting with a plan for how we'll get that data collected and we're still not sure exactly how we're going to go 100 seconds no worries I had a comment regarding all the emails prior to the opening discussion that we had and I'm actually saddened by it because I think it cheapened and changed the democratic process of this board I think a lot of people we were inundated by dozens and dozens if not hundreds of emails before we even as a board had a chance to discuss it and how it's always worked in the past we bring up a petition, we discuss it we bat it amongst ourselves whether we table it for another month so we can think about it and make a decision that night for a first vote that process was completely lost and I'm really saddened by that because I think a lot of us were either intimidated by the public input positive or negative depending on which side you want to go on but I think it changed the board and how it was handled and again I'm really saddened by that not that I don't want the public to do but it has a time and place for it not hundreds and hundreds of emails and phone calls before it starts because again that's basically we had a public hearing for days and days and days and that's not how it's always worked and again the process changed when we had the meeting and we had our presentation and we basically had a public hearing and again I'm glad for the participation from the public but it changed the environment of the meeting and I don't know if it was received really positively on all of our cards because again it just changed the meeting and I'm just saddened by that and again I want the public's input but again when it's due and that's one of the reasons I wanted and I voted yes just so the people who were upset that they had one minute you're done and they had another 30 seconds or another minute or five I don't know we could have finished that conversation and again like Bill said we could have the first vote public hearing and then the department said you know what we decided it's not publicly supported or so we'll end it right then and there so again that's just an input on that Ken there's a couple areas like I don't know if it was a Piedmont or where it was where there was some question about the females and the movement of them and their ratio in the population or whatever which was an in question like why is there a lot of movement there could that be separated by wildlife management units or whatever to limit a bobcat season so that we were not encroaching on those ones where we had questions for the 30 days we just had a 15 day season and gather that data still so you're asking if the hardest could be managed by WMU so you would close some WMUs and open other WMUs or how ever you do it I mean it would be something that I would think you should ask for us and something that the person could talk about because if there's four million acres without encroaching on or hurting the population and one million acres where it's a problem that would seem to be an easy solution the only thing I wonder about is the law I mean there's always been a law enforcement issue we do it with other species but for some reason with fur bears we've had concerns of crossing and we've had issues with New York and Vermont I assume there might be some concerns from law enforcement Bill, yes? On that question about females in certain areas I think Chris mentioned that in his report it was some of that information was doomed to a very low tank of females in a disc of water in the tank of males which might have been coming across from the land capture That was one of the regions that was the Connecticut River Valley I think and the other was I think the Champlain Valley of these two conics which was a separate issue I think the Champlain Valley situation has been to more hunters than the traffic Depends a lot of the year of course because it depends a lot on the year but also the way out which one are to run dogs and who may it be to run they don't go off or go off and it's also hard to track into that Any other comments? Chris, you ready for a vote? So a yes vote would be to move forward with a full month of December or two more weeks What was that petition written? I'm sorry It's the full month of August it's to the end of the month of December What was it from the 60 in just for clarification, we're not making a first vote here, we're doing another straw vote otherwise we're going to get locked into language that we're really not in a position to support If you're doing a straw vote, you're already on my motion to move forward In my mind I see what you mean and let's clarify this is not right In my mind you're doing another straw vote in the department to return to you with for a first vote in December So a yes vote will be to support that month of December season for Bobcat and Novo will be to maintain it as it is now with a two week season 16 day season I hate it for the longest anymore because I know you only get home to listen to the drum No thank you I don't think we're going to approve the Bobcat extension We're voting to bring it forward for discussion over the season decision Is everybody know what a yes vote means then we're all set All right So a yes vote would put in the same status as the order and the 72 hour check time and the required survey return and Novo will deny it for the Bobcat extension Are we ready for the question? Thank you Bill would you start please let's go around the room Yes Yes No No So I don't have a passing vote then We have a 6-6 in one extension 6 Just a straw vote Sorry I really feel sorry for folks at the end It's not fair I'm not sure if I'll do that better You should call it out I feel like I'll do it by age next time Peace Just go every other one Thank you for that We have some business to do with the Bear Youth Collection rule And that's a big one We're going to wait for this one Thank you This is your third vote on mandatory Bear Youth Collection It's in the same form as you approved it in the second vote and before you for the final vote Venture L car Everybody's happy Everybody's happy L car took about 7 minutes Any questions on this? For what I've been told we're going to be discussing the Bear Rule in the future So this is just for the amendment Yeah, this is just for the bear two is only 8.0 Now it's probably as good a time as any if I might Mr. Chairman give you a brief update on where we are in that process We've been in very productive conversations with a group from the Bear Housesmen We have agreed on a lot of the issues so we'll answer both some of their concerns and some of our concerns We are hung up a little bit on the question of limiting number of dogs and how that's done and what the number is So we're still talking with them about that They will then go back to their may have already done this go back to their full board to discuss where they are We will come forward with a proposal from the department for changes and we will clearly outline for you the points that we agree on and if there's any that we support then they don't and vice-versa and that will I think result in a much better Bear Rule than we have currently on the board Anything you want to add to that currently you've been more deeply involved in that than I have Just has been a really interesting project to watch on hold The Housesmen and Women are very both with their column We need three to four times a week to make sure that they're getting the correct side of it The wardens are very closely involved which is something that I'm really, really happy about because they're much closer to the actual value than I am What they're seeing out of the process is something that the current group of hounds folks are actively thinking about their problem The problems that we are seeing are also being integrated into this new rule So I think the finished product can be a very, very simplified rule In addition to thinking about what you said I did have a couple of great conversations about the limited dogs that we're going to allow on a hunt this week Everyone seems to be coming around to the initial idea There was some confusion about people hunting together not being able to use more than the allowed number of dogs that they've always used They've all been living under the six dogs on the ground since its inception And they've all agreed that most people if they're riding with a friend are going to be amenable to having six dogs in a box, most boxes don't fit more than six or seven dogs anyway The social issues are going to come to the forefront Whoever's going to have the best dogs is going to get to bring them that day But they're all agreeing that if they can't tree a bear with six dogs then they shouldn't be in the woods anyway So these problems are solving themselves and they see that the problems they've brought to us is a little number of dogs Just a touch on that Other than that, it's been a really interesting process Markets all the credit and a couple of the game words to get the rest and then the folks that are filling in the spaces from the hounds perspective get a lot of credit too So I haven't done much tuitionary except for a few of the sidebar calls from the concerned hounds people So thanks When should we expect that? February? I think January, February I'm not sure what Mark has in which we expect to be wrapping up our process with them Well, hunting season always plays things a little bit By the end of the year I'd say we'd be done our process with them and have come to a agreement on it Thanks, you can't agree on it Come to you pretty shortly Mary, just for the minutes That butch spear was talking to me and he was saying how happy he was to hear he got support from the director of the POW group who said that they weren't having any troubles with dog hunting and I was thinking well, compared to what happened in Massachusetts, Connecticut and other places it's nice that that can come out in the public arena that butch could say that occurred actually right here, so that's good information Is there a motion to open this up? I'm sorry, yes I think there was a range of 99 to 160 bucks last time that was solidified I think that actually is a fine that's set through a judicial process so we won't set that ourselves it'll be set through the judicial fine setting of the judicial I can recommend though that Halton I'm going to recommend a lot of fine massive little fine that we have or I don't know if they'll go any lower than that So 8.0 is biological collection, I guess I could read it and then you folks could motion this forward 8.1, any person who harvests a bear shall collect a premolar tooth and submit the tooth through a game warden official fish and wildlife department reporting station or to a person designated by the commissioner to receive the biological collection within 48 hours of taking the bear specified by statute, the failure to collect and submit the bear tooth shall not result in license suspension points and shall be considered a minor violation subject to a civil fine Is there a motion to move this forward so Craig and Grant, thank you second Any discussion? Yes, thanks I would consider a nominal fine less than $99 but we have too many bears out there I mean I'll walk to them and the social problem when bears get too plentiful and this they become very antisocial important to humanity and this lasts for generations you can't pull it back we need to get this bear population down and we're going to suffer and we're going to regret If I could just respond to that briefly Mr. Chairman I don't disagree with you about the fine, you know $99 truly nominal or not I would just point out that we changed under statute our enforcement regulations to allow us to do any penalty that didn't include penalty points so that was one way of decreasing the penalty that was inherent in this and we have a very limited ability to set what a fine is and once you add on the various pieces that come with every fine that go towards victims rights and other funds of its kind it's pretty darned hard to set a fine that's less than that but I do take your point Folks ready for the question? So yes vote will support 8.0812 No vote will will not Let's start with the bill please, are you worried around? Yes Yes Yes No Yes And yes I'm just going to come up here now and submit it to you I've already marked it down to $14 That's only $13 I know I get to vote close I'll make it quick Turkey shotgun season starts Saturday of course I gave you the little brief update on our habitat step earlier 9 moves have been taken in archery archery season looks like rifle success is a little higher than last year but we're still of course don't have those final numbers and I already gave you the Bearhounds update so the only last thing is I don't know how many meetings it's been since Mark missed the meeting so nobody tell him anything because as soon as you get out you're going to text him you're going to be a bastard Oh yes We are in the process of sending up emails Gmail account emails for those who want them if you would like one of those and I would encourage you to do it to move in that direction but if you would like one of those and you just put your hand up and hold it up for a minute we can note down and make sure we get so Mary will make you a separate account what this is about and you can then just turn that account over to your successor if I ever go off so that's it nobody else oh no I got one oh you got one already great alright so if you don't see it for the next couple of weeks let us know if you do want one somebody want to start a round table yeah thank you talking about the Mississippi River is there any new info on the dam and so on do you need to take that down yeah but nothing positive so we would like as you know to remove that dam and open that additional seven miles as fine to have it set up there have been no major updates or changes in that situation although the town has gotten in touch with and I guess contracted with a guy who does this work who will look at that dam and determine whether there is a potential for hydroelectric power there I actually think that may move our conversation, our process work has done that but anything you want to add, Leonard? we take the dam as uneconomical uneconomical just based on power generation but the fellow who's taken over the birth license rights is looking at is basically green energy credits whether they can make enough kind of renewable energy credits to make it a viable project he's a pretty smart guy he's developed hydroelectric power so we expect that he'll be able to turn the camera fairly quickly and either move forward or not so the fact that he's taken it over on behalf of the building is actually a good thing for getting answers more quickly on whether they've been trying to develop that kind of I just want to add can you be anything greener than allowing the fish initially to spawn there you don't get a lot of tax credits for that but our department is in a strong position for every year since we moved to dam Grant, yes we were talking about the drive and we were talking about the dust dam so the Trout Unlimited played a big part after the 11th Dam it reached and it was that group in the department and it set precedent and the feds denied a owner of the dam wanted to be billed after a catastrophe of what they were saying was a man of flight so it was those groups working together that kept that from getting people and Gary Orton himself yep, yep and for those who know Dave Smith and Francis Smith were very involved in that we were actually going to dedicate Max's area to Francis Smith nice could I think we'll keep going, yep two things Turkey's building a new seed in the fall I've had some questions on what it is you would see when it will open up I want a farmer that says he raised a couple hundred over every year so I won't pretend to be a Turkey expert but I will say that in our conversations about whether to move to maybe two birds in the fall or length in the season in the fall there is some concern across the eastern states about places that are seeing some pretty precipitous declines in Turkey numbers and so we've been kind of cautious and they're looking at those expansions because we're not seeing that per month, we don't want it so that's sort of what's informed our cautious approach on that but I'll ask Mark or Amy to give us an update for the next meeting on the seeds specifically this gentleman's problem is Unity is on one side of the road and it is far from the other side of the road and the Turkey is walking the other side of the road and will it be true? wait until they go back to the road my Turkey cross the road we're going to talk about the second question do you want to deal with the Green River Reservoir situation? so I can only say a very limited amount about that because we're in an appeal right now of that of that permit in fact we're in two competing appeals I will say that I think that the agency natural resources has moved as far in the direction of the utility as it can move and have a defensible funding so that's about all I can say being in New York in a case like that any other ideas? keep going okay on that note if anybody's going to do that you can have a look in the A2 I've already had several conversations about this in the last 10 years part of this has dropped at least 60% in A in A I think it's a big issue because of access or what? I think it's a combination of a few bad springs and easy access basically so I've had this conversation with her I really think that it should really be down to one one one spring so you want more burn shot you want less burn shot God we'll just move the hey okay David we want a big report we want a big report you don't just miss a meaning I've got me and Fraser my friends got more we're losing any reports David? I'm sorry I didn't mean to lead you okay coming from me this is going to sound good I'm very satisfied with our issue of your range up in the Northeast Kingdom on the on the road do you have any more minutes? I've got a good one I'll pass I'll pass I'll pass I'll pass I'll pass I'll pass okay I've been in September with awesome the next two months there other women had a great time I've got heat in the freezer life's good good campus I did a transplant ID and did a basket making class which is a good gift I got my blaze orange on just want to remind everybody to have a good safe fall that kind of thing not that I want you guys regulating what I wear but I'm going to go you're hunting on Sunday I can't wait in New Hampshire so me and my boy will wear a kid I'm bringing will wear orange but it's just because it's you who came out there have fun with it this fall come to New York if you work there thank you well thank you yeah


Hello, hello all and welcome to number 15 of Eat NATO for Breakfast. Franziska here from Berlin, it's merely six weeks to the NATO summit which will take place in Madrid and it's being this big show of unity of all the NATO members. It's like this big security blanket under which all the European countries will find peace and protection against Russian imperialism and some countries equally jump at this invitation as we have seen in the last week like Finland or Sweden, some are a bit more cautious and don't want to give up their neutrality quite so easily, there's discussions in Austria around all this. Among all this posturing which can perhaps be best summed up as weapons for peace, we want to amplify the diverse voices against war and against NATO, we want to talk about all the detrimental effects of world order focused on military might and the fear of mutual short destruction as a way to keep people and the planet itself safe. So from environmental destruction to the incapacity of capitalism to solve any humanitarian problems, from the hypocrisy of the European governments in regards to refugees and the geopolitical agenda of the US, all things related to NATO we want to look at until the Madrid NATO summit and of course we hope to inspire at least some awesome poster at any anti-NATO demonstration which will take place in Madrid on Sunday, June 26. Hello to my dear comrade Nora in Madrid and hello Neil joining us from the Galway Alliance against war located in the neutral country of Ireland which as far as we know is not yet planning to join NATO but then I think in the course of today's show we will learn a little bit more about how much neutrality on paper is really worth and what that really means but first Nora how are you today? You mute Nora. I was just saying that I'm always good with friends that want to disband NATO and that is one of the big slogans that we will be waving in the upcoming NATO summit in Madrid that is in fact like a sort of doubly offensive to the peace and justice activists since it marks the anniversary of Spain joining NATO in 1982. The process in fact began before in 1980 and ended with a referendum in 1986 one year before I was born. Ironically that year was named by the UN as the International Year of Peace. So in fact in the year of peace the military alliance reaffirmed that Spain will say as a strategic partner but with a very close vote only 52% said yes. The story of this referendum that mobilized the entire Spanish people that had a clear anti-war and anti-American sentiment happened in a context of great pressure from the USA. But also maybe by chance that same year in 1986 Spain joined the economic European community the current European Union. Maybe the European Union has never been their own person. So the debates in the public opinion at the time remained in ideological terms while NATO made this conversation strategic because of the location of Spain as a vital trade and communication route. With many kilometers of coast and importance for the Navy. So maybe all these that I'm saying is similar happening in Ireland, right? So we can talk more about NATO and Spain in the summit in Madrid with a beer maybe.  Nothing new. Also the fascist Portugal or Greece were part of NATO. To all of you who have doubts about NATO defending peace, democracy and human rights. This is one of the many ways that our countries are linked and well-linked to NATO and the US. We hope that NATO can elaborate today on those relations, neutrality for example the peace association of NATO and all the ways that NATO has become part of the daily life of all of our countries. So NATO welcome. I hope you are well. Are you having a cup of tea? Thank you for joining us, Neil. Tell us about how you and the GAU, or now you tell us how you say your own organization experience this pressure to conform and so people switch their opinion. And how do you see similar things happening today in the general discourse? What are in your opinion the actual options for peace in the current war? And how do you see it from the Irish perspective? How consent is being manufactured? A blanket censorship in Ireland since February 24th, since the Russians went into Ukraine and we have only been given one narrative and that is NATO's narrative. There's been no attempt to allow anybody else to say to come off with a different interpretation of what has happened or why it has happened. There's been no mention of all of the various strategists in the US who completely opposed the expansion of NATO. It is a blanket coverage. The Pope was censored last week when he, I mean, the Pope in Holy Ireland, it's hard to believe, but it's true. The Pope came out and said that NATO has played a significant part in this whole conflict. It was not broadcast on Irish television or Irish radio, and that's the national stations. They mentioned him on the six o'clock news that he was going to maybe meet the evil Vladimir Putin, but they did not mention anything that was critical of NATO. And on the nine o'clock news that night, there was nothing about the Pope. I mean, that is how bad it has been. And really, a lot of people have been concerned that it is going to impact on the whole attitude to Irish neutrality, because that is what the government has been pumping, is that we need to get it, we need protection, and how are we to defend ourselves from the Russian bear invading? And, I mean, we also had a commission on the Defence Forces, which also came out, this was before February 24th, come out saying, how do we defend ourselves? We need to invest. So we weren't, we were not optimistic, and there were two, but there were two opinion polls inside the last two weeks. And in the first opinion poll, to the great disappointment of the newspaper that produced it, 66% of the population were opposed to Ireland joining any military alliance. The one the next on the weekend, 70%. So it is still there, it's still solid. The views, but there's a lot of sympathy out there for the Ukrainians. In fact, my next door neighbour's got his gardens covered in blue and yellow. Somebody said to me, there's a, we play different sports here, one called Hurley, and every county has a, has different colours. And another neighbour was saying, those yellow and blue are the colours of Tipperary, county Tipperary said, I didn't know your neighbour was from Tipperary. But anyway, nevertheless, the view still is to support Irish neutrality. The question is, how neutral are we actually? And if you want to discuss that far ahead. Yeah, I think that's a really good point that leads us directly to the, and please correct me if I'm saying it wrong, the Galway Alliance Against War, the part, the organisation that you are a part of, you are working on the west coast of Ireland. And the history of your group is directly linked to actually Shannon Airport. But Shannon Airport is an airport. So what are you people? Are you environmentalists? You know, one could think that looking at your wonderful background, Shannon Airport also has military operations. And it is this, these military operations that your organisation and other anti-war activists in Ireland have been focused on, because these military activities have, like as far as I know, always existed, but they have significantly changed in the last 20, 25 years. And they are in contradiction to, or at least for the logical minded, in contradiction to what is actually meant by neutrality. So can you, for people who don't know Shannon Airport or only have been there because they want to fly on some weird holiday, can you give us a, can you give us a little bit of a rundown? What are the, what are the military activities that are taking place there? How has the role changed over the years? And exactly what is that contradiction in, in legal terms or in, you know, even moral terms with, with the activity, with the actual Irish neutrality? Well, it sits, the war on terror began, or as we call it, the war of terror. Shannon Airport has been used from after 2000 and after 9-11. It basically in 2002, they started using Shannon Airport, the U.S. military to fly through with, with militaries, with soldiers and with weaponry. And that started and it has gone on, it still goes on today. And up to now, we estimate something like three million armed troops on route, on route to, to, to war have, have transited Shannon Airport. In fact, it is probably, it is the biggest military army ever to travel through Ireland. And they're being, they not only go there, they've been sending to the Middle East, to, from Afghanistan. They go to Djibouti, where they, where they bring the drones to, to, to attack Somalia. They're involved in Syria from there. But so we have had three million troops armed. We've also had millions of, of military hardware going through. In fact, only last week, we discovered that Australia sent how it serves for, for Ukraine, and they went through Shannon. Because they flew, I don't know, somehow, but they ended up coming through Shannon Airport on, on route to Europe. And the other thing is that we were also involved and are linked through the Council of Europe, which is completely separate. The Council of Europe is linked to the European Court of Human Rights, et cetera. It's nothing to do with the EU, but they did, they did research into extraordinary rendition and Ireland was shown to be involved in particular Shannon of allowing the Guantanamo Express, as we called it, to transit, transit Shannon. In fact, one of the people who was taken from Bagram Prison outside Kabul and transferred to Morocco, where he was tortured with knives on his genitals. He, his, his CIA captors or kidnappers, stared overnight in Shannon, in fact, on route to kidnap him. So that's the extent of our neutrality. But how is it that we have this, this is going on and nobody says anything about it, because the media has completely blanked it out. They do not talk about it. And I mean, we marched in our over 100,000 of us back in before the days before the war against Iraq in 2003. There was something like 120,000 people in, on the main street of O'Connell Street in Dublin. I mean, we used to have massive demonstrations at Shannon, but of course, like throughout Europe and the world, there has been a demise in the, in the peace movement. And with that, the government just sit tight and refuse to change policy. Even though, I mean, in actual fact, I've stood in the rain and listened to people, politicians, and they're saying, when we get into government, we will stop Shannon Airport, assisting them, the US and Paris, and then they get into government and they do sweet F.A. They do nothing. And so we reached the stage where we were set, but now we knew that people had gone in and attacked the plane back in the early 2000s and damaged it considerably and actually got off. There's no difference, but more and more, we thought we have been doing all this peaceful protest and we're getting absolutely no coverage and this is continuing. So we decided eventually, in fact, some of our team, all known to the rest of us, of course, went in and damaged sabotage a plane, but didn't want to bear a witness in court, which I think is very sensible, don't get caught, and that stopped one of the airlines ever coming back to Shannon. It caused trouble here, of course, because they came through this door one morning, but after that, we decided to go, we started blocking the runway. We blocked it a couple of times. It got coverage because one of my colleagues is 80 years of age. We're thinking of developing a youth wing at some stage inside the organization, but in that respect, we've had a bit of coverage, but it's just the frustration that you feel you need to do something. In fact, two American, two American, elderly American vets were over and did the same thing three years ago, and they just got a massive fine here in Ireland in the courts. Normally, everybody gets off if they have a jury court, but they didn't. And we've got to look at that and ask ourselves, is that something to do with the Ukraine factor? Yeah. Or yeah, but that's something to look at. We have another two of our colleagues are up in court in the CM court next month. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, I read about that, that case against the American veterans, like they're part of veterans for peace. I read about it that that just happened in the Irish Times. We can put the link in the in the common chat so that people can read up on that particular case. I have, I have one, I have one small follow up questions before we switch gears a little bit. We've heard it now, like Nora has mentioned it in the case of in the case of Madrid and Spain or in the case of Spain. And you are mentioning it also that there is this incredible, like the polls still say 60, 70 percent, you know, for peace. Nobody wants to be part of this. You say the media is blocking what is actually happening in at Shannon Airport or what has been happening for the last 30 years. So even if we take the moment of Ukraine out out of it just for a second. What? How do you explain what's the game? What's the game for a government, for example, the government of Ireland to so blatantly, I mean, after all, we all live in democracies, like, you know, to be to be so blatantly in contradiction or in opposition to what their people actually want. Like, because I feel sometimes that we make this only we have this debate only on ideological grounds, but there has to be a game. So what's the what's the game for risking this over and over and over again? Of being exposed as a government that does not do the will of the people or that does do illegal stuff in contradiction to their own laws, regulations, constitutions, whatever. So what's the what's the game? There's there's what's the game are you asking? Yeah, what do they have to gain from this financially? We have nothing to gain. We actually pay for those flights to it's in it. It's part of an international agreement. We cover the costs of all flights that come through. So the only financial gain is that they sell the American soldiers, maybe a pint of Guinness or an Irish coffee, but there is absolutely no financial gain and it is quite clear it is a deeply ideological support of by the those in the establishment. And that this is the interesting thing. The the Greens, who are on the Labour Party, who were the ones getting up and I've listened to in the rain, there's nothing more frustrating than that. But ideologically, they are linked under support of of of of imperialism. That's it. That's and the other ones who are the Fianna Foyler, Finney Gale. I mean, Finney Gale's foreign minister, for example, who's been foreign minister for quite a few years now. He comes from he's one of the Cork. He's comes from the city of Cork and he's known as one of the Cork Princes, because there are two families that have got a lot of Dush, but he is linked to the Bilderberg. He's been to Bilderberg, you know, so you you see it. And he is pushing not only he's not only minister for foreign affairs, but he's also a minister for defence. But they have absolutely it's ideological. That's that they they crave to to to to support imperialism, really. And it will be interesting when Sinn Féin. Get elected. What will they do? But I think if I'm correct, speaking to Nora, wasn't Solana a very anti NATO at one stage? Yeah, like that. And then he ends up the general secretary of NATO. People are opportunistic. Things changed. No, they're they're they're they're so not completely. Yeah, you have to wait and see what happens with when Sinn Féin get in. We'll be I will be particularly interested because my daughter is the member of Parliament for Sinn Féin. Here in Galway, so happy, particularly interested in seeing what happens. Yeah, yeah, but I think that for for people that may be hearing us like from other countries, I think it's important to link everything that we are like now unfolding on if this happens ideologically with the powerful, how come Ireland became neutral or go through that process, right? And also why Shannon concretely, right? Like at the beginning, you know, we have the clarity of the strategic point of Spain.  So Théuten Meligia is in Africa, as well as the Canary Islands have a lot of coasts. So why Shannon and how these even these imperialist minds are pushing this strategy? Ireland managed to be neutral. Well, what's interesting about Ireland is our we we were a colony of Britain. In fact, part of our our country is still a colony of Britain. And that is where our neutrality came from. For example, during the Second World War, I mean, first of all, it was out of the First World War that we had our revolution for independence. There was a rising in 1916. But back in. So we have got this long history of oppression by the British. So when the Second World War broke out, we were neutral and we stayed neutral and people can say, oh, but Nazi the Nazis and whatever. But as I heard, I don't know who it was, I heard saying it or writing it. But from the developing world, who said, you know, people get surprised about Europe having fascism of Hitler. But for all of us who were colonies, we got treated exactly the way Hitler treated everybody, his invasion all over in Russia and wherever they slaughtered us.  And they exported they were exporting food from Ireland. And the people were dying of starvation. So that is why we did not. That is where our it's an anti-colonial position that where our neutrality came out of. But those who who developed as years went on into the fifties and then the sixties, that establishment have still been since then, since we were joining the trying to join the EEC in the 1960s, we're trying to jettison that. Now, why Shannon? Well, it is a good stop off on the way to across the Atlantic. That is one reason. But the Americans did offer back in, I think it was 2008 after the direct action which attacked a US war plane and caused a lot of damage. They were offering to remove themselves. And the Irish government said, no, no, you you must stay because we don't want these people to win. So it was it's a it's a deeply ideological struggle. Peace is a it's obviously a revolutionary concept.  It's interesting. I was reading I mean, the EU for me and the European Parliament is the most bogus. I mean, democracy is a questionable concept anyway. And in the world, in respect of any of these countries like the USA or whatever, no matter who you vote for, you normally just get the same get the same policies afterwards. But I was noticing in the there was a good report brought out on the military in involvement. The military involvement in it's a report I have here. The role of the military and how important it is to develop rather than a military, but to develop a peace concept where we bring in diplomacy is the thing that we should be working on, not on on creating a stronger military. It's an interesting report that was brought out by the left in the European Parliament and it was brought out by two, they got two organisations to produce it. One of them was a British one to do with a forgotten its name now. But if anybody wants to look at it, it's called under the radar and looking at the environmental aspect of the military. But I mean, they argue what we should be doing instead of of creating a bigger military is looking for concentrating our funding on finding solutions to the problems without war. Yeah, you're right. I think that like it's ideological and also the grounds of this situation, as you were saying at the beginning, is about security, right? I was just linking it to the Spanish situation because it's the same thing like historically, since 1953, those planes, they have the movement of having their fuel change and the change of pilot in Spain and it's not safe. In fact, in 1966, in Palomares, Almería, for a thermonuclear weapons fall and, you know, they were banning the radiation thing from the newspaper. It was very it was a mess. So in fact, when they are talking about using these places for security, they are, I don't know, they are like not talking about the risks that having this situation in our daily lives, just stopping for the fuel. This fee is 52, for instance, in 1966 in a rural area in the coast, in the water, the disaster that happened ecologically, the situation, you know, the negotiations with the US because they didn't want to pay for, you know, removing things. And they were like blocking everything. So in fact, this situation that we are facing with the basis, with the movements in our airports, in fact, is not under the name of security, at least on our security. And I think this is also linked to another relation, international relation that is the European Union and the European institutions. So we are now understand that the Irish government has a mandate from the Irish people to be a neutral voice for dialogue and peace. And instead of honoring that, they are justifying massive increases in military expenditure and providing support for, I don't know, in the imaginary levels of European militarization. This drift of the European Union also means recruiting small and medium enterprises to become involved with the European Union military industrial complex. And in fact, the permanent structure cooperation, the BESCO, is one of those parts of the European Union security and defense policy that is, in fact, the project of being in NATO and also having our own military force in this situation where Ireland is there in their neutrality includes 25 from 25 from the 27 countries of these armed forces are part of NATO. And in fact, they are pursuing a structural integration that, you know, I know that you in Ireland, you've been also against everything that happened on the Lisbon Treaty in 2009 when this happened. And in fact, some members of parliament, of Irish parliament, they are saying that joining BESCO is an abandonment of neutrality since four fifth of BESCO members are members of NATO and also in words of Stoltenberg, they are saying how important the agreement on military mobility, in fact, of BESCO and NATO is necessary for their cooperation. So these things are going on in different, you know, linkages. So this is one of the examples to how the policy is defining neutrality and not declaring things. Right. So how can we build a real neutrality, you know, and how to make the peoples to that have the will for peace to be respected by supranational institutions because all these sounds very, very difficult to to fight against. Well, in the parliament itself, there's very in the European parliament, there's very few agree with your position. There's perhaps there's definitely two, two or three Irish MPs have been outspoken on the issue, Clare Daly and Mick Wallace in particular. But how do we do it? I don't know. I mean, Pascale, this this is Pascale. It it passed through the in 20 in December, running up to Christmas, they decided to bring in Pascale in 2017. There was no coverage of in the media, and it was just brought through. And the Greens, who opposed it, are now in government and are supporting it. So while we are trying, how do you you're trying to get it out there? You know, trying to explain that why are we wasting it? But it's it's difficult. I don't know, really, to be honest with you, how we do it. But it's it's a struggle. But you've got to be pumping out the information. But how many people take it in? Yeah, we need to be aware on how, you know, like the European Union, own military project is also linked to NATO. So it's not in fact only that. I mean, in fact, they say that NATO was in the Borel has said recently that NATO is an essential element of Pascale and the EU. There is a bit of a contradiction, of course, which has changed since February 24th. But really, what they want with Pascale as well is to try and develop. Well, they want to develop their own EU army. That's one thing for sure. And they also have their aspirations to be to go back to the good old days of colonization. I mean, that's why they're in they're all over the place. And Irish troops are involved in Mali. One of the senior people, the most senior military person in naval person in Somalia is an Irishman. You know, so they've got their people positioned in Ireland. And we have got this where we had in the army previously a belief in neutrality. In fact, one of our leading figures is a former Irish officer in the peace movement. But now they're developing a new breed who are gung-ho to be along shoulder to shoulder with the mass murderers of the US, French and German and whatever. You know, that is a great problem. And it's it's one of the difficulties that we have. And this is it's like confronting anything. You've got to look for novel ways of trying to raise these issues, you know, and it's not easy. Now, we're a small group. So, you know, we try to learn from other people. For example, the whole issue of against war again to do with the environment, we have done blood baths.  But how you get that on a national scale is very, very difficult. Yeah, but it's important, I think, to to rise the situation of that now we're not only facing the situation of NATO, the military expending of the 2 percent of GDP. But also we have to acknowledge that through our own institutions, there is this Pesco situation that as you were saying, it wasn't clear, they have some contradictions like the French position of not having it, of having it. But now we see a reinforcement of these military alliances and we need to be aware on how these European entanglement also connects as well. It's been good, yeah. But it's changed slightly because of February. But really, their aim has been all along to develop since Lisbon 2009. And it's, you know, since then, their aim has been, well, even before that, if you actually read the Lisbon Treaty. And I think people should try and get a copy of the of the readable version of it, which was brought out by Peter Bonda, the Danish MEP. Really, I've got it in my bookshelf there and I would read it all the time, funnily enough. But all of this is bristling with military clauses and it's bristling with neoliberal clauses as well. It is the EU constitution. And it is. And the other sinister aspect to it is that Ireland is neutral. Well, neutral in inverted commas. But what they're now trying to do is to the European Defence Fund, which is putting in eight billion into research and development in the military technology, like artificial intelligence and robots or whatever. They are... That is being brought to Ireland to get us involved in the military industrial complex. Because the PESCO is all part of creating and Lisbon is all part of creating a unified military force. And that military force needs to have a military industrial complex. And that is an actual fact what is happening. So they're trying to corrupt the minds of workers here to say, oh, if we don't have wars, then we might lose our jobs. And that's the way that that is one of these sinister development that has taken place. And we're really going to see it. In fact, the Irish state enterprises are involved in trying to bring small and medium companies into the military industrial complex. I mean, that is a serious issue. One that we've got to confront. Yeah, I mean, but that is the EU. This idea that the EU is some it was previously a peace plan. It was never a peace plan. When it was brought together back in the beginning of the 1950s, it was to solidify the French and Germans against the Russians and against the Red threat. That's what it was all to do with nothing to do with peace. Yeah, no, I think we have all long understood and obviously understood from the start that this is not that generally these alliances are not made for peace and security and for betterment of the planet or the people but are protecting, protecting very specific interests. That's just like that's capitalist logic one or one. And whether you call it liberalism or something else, it doesn't change anything about the basic structures of this. I want to we are almost done. Like our time is almost up. And I want to because at least we try. We try even our most cynical and most experienced and old guests that we have on the show. We do want to have a we do want to end on a positive note. So, Neil, before we end today, I would like for you because one of the things that I found very interesting reading about the work you've done in the past with the organization and the other activists around Shannon Airport. One of the things that struck me and you've mentioned it throughout the show are a number of these activities that you've been doing, like actual direct actions from having your comrades arrested on the runway of Shannon Airport to blackbaths. Two, you were telling us earlier about the about the the air shows and the red balloon thing.  Are inspiring. And I'm not going to argue about, you know, whatever, effectivity and like, was that change the law or not? I don't want to talk about that. But I do want to ask, is there something you have planned or is there an action that you you and your organizations have done in the past that you are particularly proud of? I want to end the show. Let's go to the streets and do something awesome. Well, I think I mean, around the world, we all suffer from this plight of air shows, which are basically sanitizing mass slaughter. These planes that titillate our children are scurrying and killing the living daylights out of children in the developing world or whatever. We've got to see these planes for what they are. So we had this for years and years here in Galway and they flew over Galway Bay and we tried dynes. We tried leafleting. We did posters and then somebody said, why don't we want to put that song, the 99 Red Balloons? And of course, I had never heard of it, although I speak German. I'd never heard of it. It's a German song. So and it's an anti-war song. So we decided that we would get 99 Red Balloons and we would have them at the protest that was taking place. And I had a rabbit my door one day from a guard, a member of the police force to say, we are concerned about those 99 Red Balloons and we want to discuss with you in our barracks. And I said, I won't go and do your barracks. But we are worried that you use Red Balloons could take down a war plane. And we were laughing about this. I mean, it was a joke. But eventually they were so concerned about our 99 Red Balloons that they came along and burst 97 of them with with a pin. They came, the guard, he came while we were getting ready and burst them all, except for two. And as I said at the time, if Saddam Hussein had known that Red Balloons can take down a war plane, he would have won that and he would have defeated that invasion. But it was a real changing point in in the whole affair because it made it ridicule those who were trying to stop us. It got a lot of publicity. And in the end, what actually caused the defeat was an accident when a door from a helicopter fell off and hit some of the spectators. Who, in my opinion, actually deserved to be asked for being at something like that. But in fact, somebody came up to me and said, you know, I was nearly hit by that.  But we have been blamed for, as somebody said to me, you're one of the most hated people in Galway for ending the the air show. But we called it a war show. But really, it made it gave it impetus. And I got a lot of support among people thought, well, that's a good idea. So for us, 99 Red Balloons, and we suggest it to different. There's no one over in the East Coast of Ireland. And we keep sending them, get your 99 Red Balloons out. Although I think I would be sending a drone up now. I'd be a bit more sophisticated. Thank you, Neil. That's really thank you. That's a that's a really good story. And, you know, air shows are a thing in lots and lots and lots of places. And that is something that is worth starting out in terms of protests, getting those air shows away from, you know, people. Next time you need to go with backup balloons. You know, you cannot go only with the 99. You have to go with backup balloons. OK. I don't know what backup balloons are. I want to thank you. I want to thank you, Neil, for joining us. I know it was early for you. Thank you. Anyways, I want to thank everyone who, yeah, who listened in and who joined us. And I want to quickly just say that next week we'll be talking about we'll be talking with a group with a group of veterans for peace that are living and working out of Italy at the moment and will be talking specifically about the the studies they have done. Because apparently they also just won a court case in regards to the depleted uranium shelling that has been used in some of in some of these horrible conflicts. So we will be talking more specifically about the health aspect. Like, I mean, it sounds silly when I say health aspects of war. I mean, that just is cringe in it of itself. It was one of the, yeah, yeah, it was one of the things that's not talked about so much. So we'll be talking with them next week. And I would invite all of you to to join us again next week with comrades from Italy. Thanks again, Neil. I hope you have a wonderful, wonderful day and we'll speak soon. And maybe we'll go and go and back to bed now. No, wonderful, please. I'll never get you. Bye. Bye. Thank you.