Jimmy K. here, Metal Voice. Look at this. The Metal Voice shirts are now on sale. Just go to the video description to find out on how you can purchase one. Metal! Welcome to the Metal Voice today on the show. Alan? Rick M.S. Geez, this is like a dream come true here. I know it's a Metal Show, but I'm going to give you jazz hands. You know what, Rick? I was just watching this news report from 1981-82 on much music, and you're playing soccer with Steve Harris of Iron Maiden. It was amazing. And they introduced you as, and here's Rick Emmett from the heavy metal band Triumph. Yeah, well, the truth of Triumph is that I think the other guys, especially Gil, the drummer, I think he would have preferred that it be a metal band. And Mike was, you know, kind of happy to go along on that journey. And when they first initially envisioned the band, before I was even in it, I think they sort of saw it as, oh, this is going to be like, you know, Jimi Hendrix, cream kind of thing. So I've seen Clapton in interviews talk about how he thinks cream was maybe one of the first, you know, heavy metal kind of bands, which, you know, I dispute that. And I sort of think of the beginnings of heavy metal when the term was getting thrown around. It was Deep Purple and Black Sabbath, to me. You know, that's where it really started. And to me, Deep Purple is one of the four, when I joined Triumph, that was one of my favorite bands. And we used to actually do, as a bar band in the early days, a little medley of Deep Purple material. And of course, Zeppelin, we were a huge Zeppelin copy band. So that was where the band started. And that's where those guys, you know, that's where they envisioned it. But, you know, I did have more progressive kind of bones in my body. And the band would, you know, plus I was also a bit of a, you know, I would write a tune and I would hope that it might cross over to AM Radio. And there's no heavy metal never did that. Journey did that, you know, Sticks did that, you know, there were a lot of those kinds of bands in the, out of the 70s and into the 80s that were making that transition. But yeah, I think the other guys sort of saw it as a metal. So one of the reasons why we're having this interview today is... Good segue, by the way. It's a great segue. ...re-release of all these solo albums. And I'm proud to say on July 13, 1998, the launch of Rick Emmett's solo career opening for Kim Mitchell, I was able to see you here in Montreal back in 1998 on your absolutely tour. With a saxophone player, with a saxophone player. Yeah, Colleen Allen played saxophone and Chris Brockway on bass, Sil Simone on guitar, Dave Kachuk on keyboard. It was a big band, six guys. Randy Cook on drums, fantastic drummer. And he's gone on to, he lives in LA now and, you know, goes out on tours with all kinds of people and plays on all kinds of records. Randy was a tremendous drummer. Yeah, that was fun. We called that the sneak preview tour. I don't know if you get your year right. What year were you saying? I said 1998, I have it down. Oh geez, no, buddy, 88. Oh, so 88. I'm sorry, 88. Yeah, sorry, transposing numbers. I do it in my old age all the time. No, 88, opening for Kim Mitchell and, you know, getting, it's almost as if you wanted a downsize, right? You did the arena rock thing for years.  And you were really doing your own thing at that time, with some great radio airplay at that time as well. Yeah, like when I left the band, obviously I wanted, you know, the reason I left the band was because I wanted to do things that I couldn't do in the Triumph situation, you know, I mean, it's not like Triumph was going to, if I said to the other guys, hey, let's get a female sax player. She can sing harmonies and we'll get sax lines all over the material and we go, what are you nuts? You know, that's, no, we're not doing that.   A happy, good, lucky heavy metal rocker. But I mean, the first two albums, I remember being in an elevator in London, Ontario and out of the blue off, it's so factor. It comes on over the loudspeaker. So those three albums I found they were easier to find. You got promos and then it kind of, with this collection, it was more difficult to find as a fan. And we should set this up, Alan, round bill records to reissue 11 Rick Emmett solo titles. And this was like you said, July 10th. And I guess will these be available on vinyl? Are they only digital? And will they be on CD, Rick?  It was all a digital thing. It was like, see, and this answers some of Alan's question to a little bit. When I, after those three records, I started making them on my own. I became an indie kind of guy and I would make the records and I would put them up for sale on my website. I would manufacture CDs that I would sell off the stage or do mail order for whatever, get somebody to do mail order for me. And there wasn't digital downloads yet. And, you know, I think Napster kind of came around 90. And I'm Napster 98 maybe. Anyway, when the whole thing of file sharing and downloading started, I never really pursued it. Like, and I wasn't really, to be perfectly frank, I was never all that concerned about trying to retail records and turn myself into a record company kind of a person. I was still just a musician. I'd write, I'd record, I'd put out these records. If I made my money back, I'd go, oh, great. Okay, let's do another thing, you know, like, and those records, I was all over the map.  Yeah. I was doing stuff like, you know, jazz, top stuff, classical guitar, blues, you know, I was fulfilling all of the things that, that had been frustrated dreams when I was in triumph. You know, now I was just going to do whatever I wanted to do.  And it started because they were doing the triumph stuff. Right. They put it on vinyl to answer your question, Jimmy. They put out like, I think the latest one was the Allied Forces record. Oh, no, the classics. The greatest hits came out on vinyl. And I think what round hill does is they put them out first digitally, so that, you know, iTunes and Spotify and Pandora and all of these streaming things. Shit that I never did. I never pursued any of that. They've said, well, we're going to do that first. And if it goes well, my guess is they'll crank up the vinyl my guess is they'll crank up the machine and say, all right, let's manufacture some vinyl and do that next. You know, like they'll pursue the things that become more expensive things to do. Manufacturing up a CD run. And if they don't, you know, if they put them out and sort of nothing happens, I go on the metal voice and, you know, I do my interviews and they go, well, we didn't sell much off of that. We'll try our best. Yeah, good for you.  You know what it is, Rick? Rick, people are aged by vinyl and people are aged by CDs. So they like physical, right? I know. We're getting up there in age. I know, totally. I get it. I mean, on my own website, on my fan forum, like that people will put, that's exactly what they post up because they're as old as we are. We're your target market. We're your target market. You're on the right show. Right.  You guys can get back to round deal and tell them, you know, if you want to do this, right?  You were doing anything you wanted. And, but you never stopped working. It's not one of their, where, where, where is he now?  I think you were one of the earliest guys to embrace the internet and promote yourself through that. That's off to you on that. And I mean, there's 10, and here's the proof. Here's 11 albums being re-released. Yeah, you know, like I think of myself as being very lucky. Like I've had a kind of a blessed life that, you know, I didn't have to struggle too hard to kind of keep things going along.  Like, you know, I've just finished a book of poetry, which I think is going to get published. So I've always had a creative part of me and I've been able to indulge it and, you know, somehow the boat floats, you know, and so that's good, you know. And now, hey, Round Hill comes along and says, we'd like to make a deal and do this. I go, wow, okay, that's a lovely thing. That's great. Thank you, you know. And again, that's kind of, it's kind of like luck. Now, some people might say, well, it's not luck, you know, you work hard and I did retire from touring a year ago, January, I stopped playing live gigs. So there is that. I did kind of make a gesture towards my age and stage going, you know, I don't like playing guitar and I don't mind writing, but man, I don't want to get in the limo and go to the airport and have to get in the plane and go to baggage and get the thing and go to the hotel and, you know, like that was wearing pretty thin on me. Not even a one-off? Maybe a one-off, a special night? It's possible. In fact, I did have a couple of little things booked. I was going to do a couple of things where there's these kind of things now where you can go and they'll interview you and then you play two or three songs, but somebody talks to you, you know. So it's sort of like doing the show except you pick up your guitar and sing some tunes. So I went, okay, I'll try a couple of those, book those and I'll, you know, I'll spread them out and I'll try them. And there was one gig where I went, I played a lot of gigs with Dave Dunlop, who was my duo guy and some of the records that, you know, on that thing there that you got behind you. Hold on, let me present. Let me present. Vanna White. Yeah, there we go. Some of those records are, I was in partnership with Dave Dunlop playing guitar duo stuff. And there's one record for your hard rock heavy metal fans. There's a record there called airtime Liberty Manifesto, which I did with a guy named Mike Shotten. And it's really hard rock. It's a very progressive hard rock kind of record. That one in the corner. Right, right. Jimmy's right here. There we go. There we go. I like what I'm doing here. That's a real hard rock and record. Very modern, very approachable. And Dunlop is here, up here. Let me just get it here. Which one? There. I can't, it's hard to move because it's, it's a real image. I got you. Yeah. Are you giving the troubadours album the finger? Thumbs up.  I'm really into presentation. I'm really into presentation. You're the Vanna White. And he's the Pat St. Jack. Something like that.  It's the, these little sessions that you do. I mean, it's the between songs banter that I think everybody really appreciates.  Yeah. You know, I mean, M it is an Irish name. And so there's probably a lot of Blarney. And my, you know, DNA. But when I played gigs and solo gigs. To me, part of the appeal was it was like having a bunch of people in your living room. So I wasn't just going to play and stick to the, you know, set list.  Like that's all they had to do was give me an excuse enough.  It's, you know, I'm, I'm looking to have fun. I'm not necessarily looking to have some sort of dry exchange. That's like, you know, it's amazing Rick, Rick. When I look at all your 11 albums and there's a few live there too. You're looking like from jazz to folk to acoustic to swing. Right. I just, I put them all on and I've heard them over the years too. It's just blues. I mean, country. I mean, you've done it all. I mean, people just don't really get what an established or versatile guitar player that you are. It's just, it's incredible.  No, I think it's true. And, you know, I've been doing a morning of interviews here.  But when I first started, the first good guitar I owned was a nylon string classical guitar. That was the first good one that I ever had. And so the whole idea of fingerstyle, I would go and play Thursday nights at the West NYMCA in Toronto. They had a coffee house. And I would do James Taylor and Paul Simon and bastardized versions of Roy Clark's Malaguenia. Like it was kind of acoustic, folky kinds of stuff. And that's who I was. But of course at the same time, oh, I'm playing in a basement garage band and we're learning Led Zeppelin songs. And, hey, Eric Clapton used to play in the blues breakers. Let's do a couple of those things.  And that's another voice that's a part of my youth, you know, where I started, you know. So, and then as I got older, you know, along came progressive bands. And here came, you know, yes, Steve Howell was a huge role model for me. Because here's this guy. Oh, he plays classical one minute. Then he's playing an arched top electric guitar the next. Oh, then he's playing slide on a steel guitar. Like he was all over the place and I loved that. I go, the clap, the clap. Yeah, there you go. And I'm going, that's who I want to be. I want to be that guy. And it was an eclectic kind of approach.  But I think that push and pull was go ahead. Sorry. One at a time. We always had snippets.  I was going to say mid summer daydreams of the classics. There's always a serenade in there. And that's what was enjoyable for me as a fan. I mean, and again, another part of that is the positive lyrics, you know, fight the good fight, never surrender. And that's carried over into your solo crew. That's nice to see with songs like state of grace amongst others. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. Well, of course, part of that is, you know, if you're in a band that has decided to call itself triumph, like, what is that going to mean in terms of, not just in terms of, you know, an image that you're going or a brand that you're going to stick to in terms of marketing, which of course, heavy metal bands do that, you know, they, they, they established their brand. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, to me, it was a pretty narrow kind of thing. I didn't want to have to stay inside that. But, you know, the band was called triumph before I was even in it. They printed up posters and they knew what they were going to do. But it took me until about 1978, 79 to start going, wait a sec. So if it's going to be this, then the song should be about honesty and truth and about, you know, like a higher kind of a purpose. And like, what is, how does anybody define their own triumph, their own victory? So I started to try and write lyrics and songs about that. And those were the ones that became pretty popular. So, you know, then it was like, okay, like when we played the Aus Festival in 83, you know, here's all these guys that are like, it's heavy metal day. So it's 95 degree weather and they're wearing leather and studs, you know, we're a little band in white and I'm wearing like a track top, you know, because it's hot. Like, I'm not going to, and my pants are white, you know, and a Brian Adams used to, he, you know, I saw him let's do an interview. He opened for millions of bands when he was first starting, he was, you know, wherever he could get a gig, but he would always wear an oversized white shirt. And he said, the reason was because when you're on a stage and you don't get all the lights, if you want people to see you, if you're wearing white, it's a pickup, whatever light exists, and at least people will still see you. And when we started to try, if I said, guys, we should be wearing white, because then when the lights go red, we'll be red when the lights go blue, we'll be blue. Like, we're white. So we were the band in white, and we were the only band in, you know, reasonable clothing on the day of the episode. No kimonos. Yeah. Or, to me, it was, the Judas Priest was the ones, they had Harleys, and they rode up onto the stage on Harleys, and then they got up, and they're wearing like leather pants and studded pigs, and poor, Rob Halford and Glenn Tipton, those guys were sweating like pigs about two minutes in, and I'm going, oh boy, I'm glad I'm not having to wear all that stuff. But Rick, okay, so, you know, in every, and like Alan mentioned, in every triumph song that was a bit of you, you know, be it the positive lyrical messages, or sort of the classical influence, or whatever it is, you put yourself in there, looking back now, are you saying, you know what, man, we really, because of the pushing and pulling of all of us, we really created some great music. I mean, how do you feel now when you look back? I think it's true that the band reflected, you know, the personalities and the character of the three of us, and you know, it's kind of like, sometimes the things that make a band good and unique are also the kinds of things that create stress and tension inside the band. They're eventually going to maybe be the things that break the band up. You know, John Lennon and Paul McCartney would be the supreme example, you know, but I mean, even Alan Fry and the Eagles, you know, like, if there's talent and there's ambition and there's creativity that's at work there personally, you get to a certain point. And when you start a band, you got nothing. So you're willing to make any sacrifice, but you know, after more than a decade, if there's been success, well, now there's money and there's power and everybody's getting older and people are getting married and they got kids and now your priorities change, you know, and you become more selfish. It's kind of a hard word to use because it doesn't seem like selfishness. It just seems like in a way self-preservation. You're just trying to be true to yourself instead of true to this collective thing that is already a dated idea. That's from 10 years ago. That's not from now. So, you know, I mean, it was inevitable that I was going to move on to my own things.  We had some stuff that was true to who we were. And so I can give us credit in the band.  They would give me the freedom to do those things that you mentioned, like suitcase blues on just again. To me was one of the best moments of my life. You know, when I look back on it now, it was a pivotal thing in my life to have that song on that record, you know, along with the classical guitar piece, which was like, how many people could say, yep, got a classical guitar piece on a record that went platinum? How many classical guitar players could say that? That's right. No, you can't. And Rick, I think you're being extremely humble.  You can play anything. And here's the proof with these release of these solo albums. Everybody should be checking them out. So Rick, you've played every court. I had the tabs for allied forces. And I think every single court known to guitarist and man, you've actually tackled basically. That's a good, Jimmy, I'll tell you a story. Ian Thomas is a good friend of mine, a singer, songwriter, Canadian singer, songwriter. And he was over for dinner just the other day was his birthday. And I would do these. I was on the board of the songwriters association with Ian. And we would, every year, there'd be the annual general meeting.   So it would become my turn. And Ian would say, Hey, Rick, play one of those tunes there where you, you play all all I'm chords, play one of those chords in them.  And it gets in the end. And Ian would say, Jesus Christ, Emma, you play more chords in that song than I've known in my whole life. That's one song. It's true. It's true. Anybody who's a guitar enthusiast. All right. Before we run out of time, upcoming documentary Alan, upcoming documentary triumph. This is by banger, a great, great, you know, production team, a Canadian as well. Right. I mean, can you tell us a little bit about the documentary looking back?  I mean, are there any, what are the pros and cons of this whole documentary? Well, you know, yeah, it's, it's weird. There's a surreal nature to having somebody and banger, they're very good at what they do. And they've done so many, you know, everybody from Iron Maiden and metallic and rush, you know, to, they've got one that's on Netflix right now. It's a ZZ top one. Like it, like these guys are consummate pros and they know what they're doing when they're telling a story. And so that somebody's digging around in your life, you know, they come to my house and do, they do an interview and then they come back a few months later and do another one. And then they come back another couple of weeks later and do another one because they're building, they're going deep, right? And you're going, oh, this. A little too deep there. Yeah, like, what are they going to find, you know, I'm a little bit concerned.   I don't want to go there. But, you know, I thought I'd put all this behind me and, you know, it was ugly, heavy baggage. But I'm not saying that the documentary, I've seen a rough cut and they did a really extraordinary thing. I hope I'm not giving too much away here. It's all right, just between us. Yeah, they flew in fans from all over the world. Yes, yes. They created an event and the fans didn't know that we were going to actually play three songs. Oh, wow. So they brought them all to the warehouses and they're walking around and they're looking at this sort of triumph museum-y kind of thing. They've got dummies with my old spandex jumpsuits on them.   The scrim drops and we start, there we are and we play. Wow. At the rush of these. And these are the people that love us the most. There's another couple of hundred of them, but it's just, it was so intense. It was so amazing, you know. And of course they've got like, you know, 15 cameras around the room capturing every angle of this. And then you go, oh my God, like this is heavy, do we? You know, so it's really good. It really gets to the heart of you're a band. You create some music. You make a connection to people. And then here's these people. They, you're the soundtrack of their lives and it matters to them, you know, so they love you. I could get up there and fart and they would go, yeah. I can smell it from the back row. I love it. You know, Rick, I'm going to tell you right now from all my friends or people that I know that had documentaries on Netflix and so on. This is going to create another legacy of the band. It'll create layers and layers. And even like the guys in anvil like lips has told us many times their career for the past 10 years has been riding. Off of that. And new fans start emerging. Right. Yes. So be prepared. Be prepared for. Lots of triumph. A lot of demand for triumph. That's what I'm trying to say. Well, you know, I. Yeah.  And of course that poster behind you, you know, every time you put out a record, like you're reinventing yourself in a certain way. You're going down a different road, a different path. Yeah, there we go. No, they don't like that. Like, and that's a very, that's been a very eclectic life for me. So to come back to triumph now in my retirement. And now have you been taking on this size and proportion and, and, uh, Wait. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I feel like.  I, because I've had a life where. I pretty much put that behind me a long, long time ago. You know, now is there a comfortable way. To be who we are. You know, and still do it. Yes. Like I went on some of these rock cruise things, right? Played on a couple of them. And in particular, my last one that I did, Peter Frampton was one of the headliners. And Peter, like I've always loved Frampton. And I've always respected, admired him. And he was great. Like he played great. He sounded great. But he's been struggling with a physical thing where he's now literally had to retire from the road because he just can't do it anymore. Like his bones are getting soft. And it's not going to kill him, but it means that he can't really tour him. Play anymore.  He was the guy that was this cute blonde guy. Now I understand a little bit of that. Because I was on MTV with the blonde locks.  And since I'm on this topic, I'm going to mention one other thing because Jimmy, you talk about blues. You know, BB King, he eventually get to the point where he's way over way. He's got diabetes. You know, he's got diabetes. He's got diabetes. He's got diabetes. He's got diabetes. He's got diabetes. He's got diabetes. He's got diabetes. He's got diabetes. He's got diabetes. He's got diabetes. You know, but every night, man, they're walking him out. He's sitting on a chair in the middle of the stage, but he's still bringing it because he's BB. And this is what BB does.  I can figure out a way to do that.  Like if that's what it comes to, I'll give it a shot. You know, we can segue right into the bonfire sessions there. Maybe that's a, that's a great feeling, right? So the song is just sitting around our bonfire. Yeah. Yeah.   And so I had reached this point where I'm thinking, maybe I'm not going to make any more records. Maybe this will be the, maybe this will be it. You know, so my studio in the basement, I bought a couple of really good mics and I go, okay, I'm not going to add any overdubs. No, no, just guitar and voice. That's it. And then, you know, I had this pile of stuff and I'm going, okay, well maybe just a fender telecaster and a little lunch pail amp, you know, maybe for the jazz stuff. I'll just, just, you know, so it reminds me of a Steve Martin in that, the movie The Jerk when he's leaving those goes, and I don't need anything. Well, maybe I just need this phase. Maybe I'll just take this picture. That's all I need. Just this thing. I need this. I mean, anyhow, you know, I get to the end of the process and, you know, there's 24 songs, 18 of them are like folky thingies. Three or four of those are kind of jazzy things. And then there's six finger style guitar pieces. Could I keep doing this for the rest of my life? I think I could. Do I want to? Well, that's not where the muse led me in the last little bit.  No, no, no, we're flexible. We're flexible.  Yeah, it's fine, you know, it is what it is. And, you know, but when the creative muse leads you to something and that's what you do, then it feels right and legitimate. Whereas, and I've said this in other interviews, sometimes in the music business, you feel like you're trying to bang a square peg into a round hole, you know. And I've said, you know, I'm 67 years old now. I'm really only looking for round pegs and round holes.  It's just a game, Rick. It's just a game. All right, so let's summarize all this. All right, 11 albums being solo albums. And you know what this documentary will probably help those solo albums, right, in the process. 11 solo albums. Every flavor you could even think of to be, actually already released July, that were released on your birthday, July the 10th. We're not too far away. My birthday is July 21st. So there you go. We're almost the same guy.  I am. Yes, I am. And I just forgot my train of thought. All right, Triumph is going to be re-releasing their classic albums on vinyl, right? That's another big thing. Or just the classic, all the classics. It was the greatest hits package and it just came out on vinyl. Yes. All right. Upcoming documentary to be determined in terms of a date. Is it done? I would think they're pretty close. I've seen the second rough cut. And I know that they were targeting September, which would have been the Toronto International Film Festival, which, you know, who knows what COVID is going to do to that and do those plans, but their goal all along was a fall release. So who knows what will happen. And maybe it'll just show up on Netflix or something. And the band, it has been honored with the legends of live award, which recognizes great contributors to the Canadian music industry, right? Yes. You have to wear a suit, a tie and. Well, we didn't have to dress up too much for that. We did have to dress up for the, did the, we got the walk of fame, the Canadian walk of fame. Yes. Like in November. And that one was, you had to dress up and you really had to behave yourself and, you know, that was a lot formal. The legends of live was more, you know, they had Canadian music weekend. We could dress informally and, you know, I didn't have to write a speech that I had to read off a teleprompter. I just had to go, Hey, yeah, thanks a lot for this piece of plexiglass. Yeah. And oh, any unreleased triumph material might be resurfacing or anything like that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I know that the banger dug around and they found outtakes on old. Two inch 24 track stuff. Lord knows where they found machines to be able to lift that stuff back off of, but when I was looking at a rough cut, I went, isn't that a demo that I did for, you know, a song that never came out.  They've, they've swept the cutting room floor. Alan, last question. Hey, no, I just complete honor, Rick. I mean a fan from the 80s triumphs. One of my top favorite bands. You're one of my top guitars of all time. And it's a true pleasure to have you here on the show with us. I couldn't be happier. Thank you very much. We don't only do metal. We don't only do metal. Right. Prague rock. Good. The hard rock.  We're kind of, we call it the metal voice. We focus on that, but we kind of, you know, I believe that a lot of the musicians that are in heavy metal bands, they probably would be just as comfortable being in a Prague band. If they could have found a singer that could have cut it, but that became the problem was like, yeah, we can't find somebody that can sing like a chickadee. We've only got a guy that can go. Okay. We're going to have a heavy metal because that's all we can say. Cookie monster Prague. Okay. Have yourself a wonderful day. Thanks again, Rick. Thanks guys. Yeah.


Llyr Your Excellency, rha bun I am from the College of Business Economics. I am stationed here for one year to assist the director in organising all kinds of events and of course replacing her if she is not available. The College of Law which delivered a deputy director last year, so last year's theme was related to the field of law and last year we had various events in relation to the field of law. We have two other colleges who will deliver a deputy director next year, the College of Arts and Social Sciences and in the last year of the current funding cycle of the centre, the College of Asia and the Pacific will deliver a deputy director and the theme then will be Asia and the Pacific. You can guess from that that the activities of the centre are very much multidisciplinary. We engage scholars and we engage the community in a range of different areas, a range of different academic areas as well. Multidisciplinary but also interdisciplinary, for example my interest is in business studies but I also take an interest in what we are going to learn about today, the poetry of Yates. A range of activities that we organise for example our next activity following this public lecture will be next Tuesday a public lecture on the European Union's policy to combat child labour in the world. During the last two weeks the centre hosted a very successful exhibition which you see around you here to honour the Irish poet William Butler Yates. It was organised together with the Embassy of the Republic of Ireland and we are very fortunate to have the support of the embassy for this exhibition and also for today's event. The exhibition coincides with, as you may know, the exhibition that is currently ongoing on the Irish in Australia located at the National Museum and people attending that exhibition at the National Museum have been wandering in to see the exhibition here on Yates over the last two weeks. So from our perspective it has been quite successful. Unfortunately the Yates exhibition will conclude this year, sorry definitely this year but this week because we need to free up the space to accommodate other events as I mentioned next week Tuesday we have a further event. Today we will have a lecture by Ronald McDonald standing here to my right. One of our well-known colleagues in the fields of Irish studies from the University of New South Wales. This event is also organised together with the Embassy of the Republic of Ireland so we are very grateful to the embassy for its support. Ronald McDonald is from the University of New South Wales where he is a professor in the School of English, Media and the Performing Arts. He has a wide range of research interests including of course various aspects of Irish studies, Irish literature, Irish society, Irish culture and politics and most likely a few more than that. Professor McDonald will speak to us for about 45 minutes and we are really keen to see whether after that 45 minutes you will have further questions about Yates or things Irish that Professor McDonald will be able to answer. Thank you. Thank you very much Pierre and thank you all very much for coming. It's a great pleasure to be here.  You can either make a choice between giving a handout which is black and white or you can have a multimedia PowerPoint. I've kind of combined the two and had a PowerPoint which is just text possibly to avoid upstaging the wonderful exhibition as if that were possible. But thank you very much and I'd like to thank the Irish Embassy and the ANU and particularly want to thank His Excellency Mortino Fannin for coming today. Actually we have two ambassadors here. We also have Ex Ambassador Richard O'Brien, Irish Ambassador Richard O'Brien here and Orla Tunney for the Council. So thanks to them for inviting me and for taking time to come to today's lecture. As Pierre said I'm going to talk for about 45 minutes. I'm going to talk a little bit in broad terms about Yates and some of the major themes of his work and his intellectual development. In particular how we constructed ideas of Ireland and how we often pitted ideas of Ireland, not necessarily the real Ireland, but ideas of Ireland against certain aspects of the modern world. Like many modernists, Yates often disdained modernity or aspects of modernity. Certain currency saw developing in the modern world which he rebuked and reviled. Many of his positions in disdaining the modern world we would find quite conservative today even politically repugnant. Certainly the later Yates in his flirtation with fascism. But Yates was an oligarch and I believed in aristocrats and he had many political views which we might dispute or find problematic these days. And one of the interesting questions about Yates as so many of the great modernists who also had such views is the relationship between that politics and this extraordinary poetry. I also want to, in looking at some of this intellectual background to Yates, I also want to do something which maybe will complement the contextual survey that you have, these wonderful banners, by looking at some of the individual poems. So I'm going to start maybe by talking quite broadly about Yates and his intellectual formation, putting them in the context as I say of certain divisions in modernity. And then I look at some of the, a few of the quite well known poems and try to finish so we can have some questions if there are any. I'm just going to start by looking at the abstract I gave for this lecture I quoted from this poem. It's a late poem. I'm not going to spend too much time on it. But it's one of the Yates died in 1939. So this is one of his last poems marked by the hot tour. This kind of quite exhilarating hot tour I find that haughtious of the later Yates. But I wanted to quote it because it puts in opposition what is explicit opposition, what's implicit in my title, namely Yates Ireland and the modern world, where he says, I mean to complicate a poem about statues and about how humans create God. But this is the final stanza, which I've quoted here. When pierce summoned Cwcullen to his side, what stalked to the post office? What intellect, what calculation number measurement replied? We Irish, born into that ancient sect, but thrown upon this filthy modern tide, and by its formless spawning fury wrecked, climbed to our proper dark that we may trace the lineaments of a plummet measured face. The line I quoted in the abstract, which I want to focus on here, is we Irish, born into that ancient sect, but thrown upon this filthy modern tide. This is the Yates at the end of his career. But that opposition, that idea of Ireland as to some extent a salve to some of the depredations and debasements of the modern world is something that Yates embodied quite early. Now, that might seem, from one point of view, as if he sees Ireland as always pre-modern, or as in some way an exception to what's happening in the modern world. But it's more complicated than that, because finding alternatives to modernity, to the mob, to certain habits of mind which he saw as underrating the imagination and poetry, and idealism, and religion, and those things he liked, is itself part of modernity. It is extremely modern to be anti-modern. Many of the major writers of the early 20th century were. Eliot, T.S. Eliot looked back to 17th century France. Yates at various times looked back to ancient Ireland in his younger days, and as he got older to 18th century Protestant Anglo-Ireland as kind of an alternative to what he saw as what he describes here as the formless spawning fury. But the formless spawning fury is, I mean this is written in 1939 obviously, it's a year when the Second World War is going to start. Yates himself has lived through the early decade of the 20th century marked by war, revolution and violence, and experienced some of quite close quarters in Ireland. So he has that reaction. But nonetheless the spawning fury of the modern world isn't simply political movements and mob rule and democracy which he wasn't very fond of. It also, and this goes back to very, very early, and this is where I think his Irishness comes in, characterises what we might call a materialist frame of mind.  I mean not just acquisitiveness, I mean a scientific way of looking at the world, an empirical way of looking at the world which he associated in his own mind with England and at other stages with the Irish middle classes. So against a pragmatic, scientific way of looking at the world he sought to oppose a non-empirical imaginative idealist religious in the wider sense that term, not belonging to any conventional religion, occult quite often. We must remember Yates' huge interest from a very early age and enduring interest in various occult systems, all of which fed into his poetry. But it was, if you like, an anti-enlightenment idea of the world, if we think of the English Enlightenment philosophically as Locke, John Locke, David Hume. That sort of idea which led to the surge and the dominance of science which he saw as completely overwhelming the modern world with its arid realist aesthetic, very realist in terms of the sort of aesthetic. The sort of art he tended to prize but surface orientated and dislocating people from the great reservoirs of idealism and value which he saw as still within Ireland. So his nationalism, if you like, was part of a complicated reaction to an internationalism and to currents that he saw as all around Europe, as happening all around Europe. We Irish, by the way, is a phrase he gets from Bishop Barkley, the Irish philosopher, who countered Locke's empiricism with a motive idealism and is said to have used the phrase, We Irish do not hold with that against Locke's empiricism, the phrase that Yates in complicated ways often wanted to put. There is, though, that seeing the Irish as to some extent non-English or the opposite to England as having embodying a certain national character which was the opposite to England does itself have a long pedigree. Yates was very influenced by Matthew Arnold, the great 19th century intellectual and thinker poet who wrote, who categorized the Irish in a positive sense, but in his essay on the study of Celtic literature, saw the Celt as being a salve to the Saxon, being the opposite to the Saxon by bringing the softer virtues, the feminine virtues, as he saw it. So, while the Saxon was pragmatic, rational, hard-headed, scientific, the Celt was emotional, spiritual, poetic, and he had a whole list of characteristics. He said, Arnold famously said that the Celt revolts against the despotism of fact, and he meant that as a compliment, despotism of fact. So, there is a sort of a sense in which the 19th century saw, and before, if you want to go back, saw a certain movement which is sometimes called as Celticism, which saw the Irish and the English in kind of operating in complicated oppositional way. So, when Samuel Beckett, much later, was asked by a journalist if he was English, and he responded au contraire, he was, to some extent, picking up on that sort of tendency, that sort of construction of Ireland in England, in opposition. What Yates did with it was, he took Arnold's idea, for Arnold, the Saxon and the Celt were like the ideal Victorian marriage, but there was no question who was dominant. It was the male figure who was dominant and the female brought sweetness and light into the imperial home, which is why Arnold opposed home rule. For Yates took that and used it as a reason to vouchsave Irish independence and Irish nationalism, that exceptionalism. So, I think when we're looking at Yates' nationalism and his interest in Ireland and his Irish, we need to kind of factor in some of those, some of that history. Yet, yet, yet, as always, there is much more, because when we scratch beneath the surface, we find fascinating and revealing complexity and ambivalence in Yates' own intellectual disposition. It would be severely misleading to think that Yates' opposition to scientism, to empiricism, to materialism of England is the whole story, because there's a huge strain of interest in science and observation and proof. Yates is always looking after proof. He never believes, he believes everything, apart from what's in front of the body, what he can see. He's very, very credulous, but he's always looking for proof. Even when he joins in the 1890s, all these spiritualist societies, like the Order of the Golden Dawn, he's seeking for evidence, obsessed with evidence. He gets expelled in the 1890s from the esoteric section of the Order of the Golden Dawn, which is an occult society, for trying to come up with an experiment to revive the spirits of dead flowers. So, we get this kind of, rather what we would regard maybe now is a bit Southern Californian, interesting in the occult, in horoscopes, in seonses. What George Steiner described, the critic George Steiner described some years ago, is hairdresser stuff. All this kind of belief, but yet at the same time he kind of wants to bring it back to a scientific aspect. This creates fascinating tensions in his work. And there's one word, I think, which embodies Yates' work, which gets his poetry and his philosophy, it's conflict. It's always oppositional. There's always conflict. There are always poles in his positions. But I want to just have a very, very brief look at his own description, because we find in Yates, and in a number of other writers like John Maynton Singh, was an early infatuation with science. A lot of the Yates used to wander around collecting specimens, as many people of this class in the background would, collecting specimens, butterflies if he was particularly interested in, and rocks. Quite interested in naturalism and natural science. And he records in his autobiographies a kind of a deconversion experience, how he moves from this fascination with science away towards folklore, and eventually into mythology, and eventually into all types of aspects of spiritualism and the occult. Part of Yates' journey for Yates is his relationship with his father, which is hugely important. His father was an artist, if you've read that, it describes this, his father's art, but he was also very taken with Mill and Darwin, a 19th century scientific thinkers, progressive thinkers. Y Yates initially was very bound to these people, but later kind of went through this, and he describes it as kind of an edible conflict away from his father, who was scientific, not the way a number of other Victorian autobiographies describe the kind of, the story is usually a conflict with a religious father towards materialism or atheism or ethnicism. Yates had a conflict with his atheist father towards various modes of invented religion. Y Yates invented this tremendous concoction of religion and spirituality with a bit of Christianity, a bit of Eastern religion, a lot of occult, a lot of the Kabbalah thrown in, and used this as a source to write this extraordinary poetry. Rwy'n meddwl y cwethaf yw'r bwysig. Huxley a Tyndl, Tyndl Huxley a John Tyndl. Huxley was a populariser yw Darwin's Bulldog. Tyndl was an Irish scientist. Both of them Darwinists. I was unlike others of my generation in one thing only. I am very religious, he says. Not quite true given his father. His mother was a little bit, but not quite true. And deprived by Huxley and Tyndl, whom I detested, of the simple-minded religion of my childhood, I had made a new religion. Almost an infallible church of poetic tradition. Of a fardle of stories and of personages and of emotions inseparable from their first expression, passed on from generation to generation by poets and painters with some help from philosophers and theologians. I wished for a world where I could discover this tradition perpetually and not in pictures and in poems only, but in tiles around the chimney piece and in the hangings that kept out the draft. I mean, what's interesting, he wrote this in 1921, published in 1921 in the second volume of his memoir, but it's interesting the way he constructs his instinct to make a new religion. And that's really what he does all the way through his life. He invents extraordinary amalgamations of different religions, culminating in his very difficult book, A Vision, which he first published in 1925. We've revisited and reworked in 1937. But it's funny that he ascribes this to what is in effect a European crisis of faith? What he constructs was a crisis of faith. A world one. Darwin and the challenge that ideas are natural selection, ideas of science posed to conventional religion. I mean, it's an extraordinary paradox he talks about, deprived of this religion, but yet he detests it. So it has power, but it's also detested. And I think it complicates that opposition to science that we see in Yates all the way through.  And he's a bit of an evangelist for non-religion. So just to want to quote here. He sounds a little bit like me. Hot for argument in refutation of Adam and Noah in seven days. I read Darwin and Wallace, Huxley and Hegel, all evolutionists of very sort, and would spend hours on a holiday plaguing a pious geologist who would not have done that job in Guinness's Brewery, came with a hammer to look for fossils in the Hoth cliffs. This is interesting contrast to the Yates we know now. Here he sounds, who's very anti-scientific and very anti-materialist. He sounds here like a sort of Richard Dawkins character who goes around trying to upset the faithful and the pious by showing the evidence from the fossil record and so on. And I think that in assessing the later Yates, we need to kind of bear in mind that this is where he came from. And it makes him a more modernist figure in assessing the sort of poetry he writes, rather than simply a reactive one. Later in the 1890s he moves into, as I said, folklore, Irish mythology, and the occult of various forms. That move is itself a cosmopolitan move. By cosmopolitan I mean it international. Yates' embrace of traditional Irish culture and folklore is part of a European movement, sometimes called primitivism, which happens all around Europe. So I think we need to understand Yates, yes as an Irish poet, but also as one responding to the crises and developments of the modern world. He's also very influenced by intellectual currents from Europe. He's also very influenced by aesthetic cultural poetic ones. Yates is the earliest one, which endures, is French symbolism. The poets of France from which that movement towards the concretion of the symbol and poets like Verlaine and Baudelaire, from which modernist poetic experiments sprang a generation later. One of the wonderful things about Yates and one of the really significant things about him and one of the reason why trying to talk about him is a challenge is because not just because he lived quite a long life, but because he did so much in it and he was at the forefront of so many movements. The forefront of the 1890s, Friends of Orozco Wild, a part of the Rhymors Club, moving on of the symbolist movement, Friends of Arthur Simmons, who brought the symbolist movement into English language. Part of the modernist movement. Most people, most great writers, even very, very substantial writers like William Wordsworth, write great work when they're young or maybe when they're a little bit older and then fade off. The extraordinary thing about Yates is he's one of those writers, a little bit like Grytham, who had many peaks, an extraordinary peak in the 1920s with the publication of the Tower and the Wining Stair. There's tremendous modernist volumes so he's part of all these different movements as well as being a theatre impresario, a senator, a lecturer, an essayist and a various public man, as he calls himself. So there's so many strands to Yates. But nonetheless, we must recognise a long career of various different peaks, as it were, but also a figure whose nationalism was nevertheless an internationalism, an international. Here's an example, another quote from an essay which indicates two things. The influence of a certain 1890s language which is wavering and dreamlike, very Walter Pater, very much part of the decadence, very much of its era, an influence of symbolism, but also the beginnings of this reaction against surfaces, against materialism and realism and naturalism that would embody many of as much of his career. So he says, Man has wooed and won the world and has fallen weary in the 1890s full of that, weary-less, that sort of sense of a culture overripe. That will not end until the last autumn when the stars shall be blown away like withered leaves. He grew weary when he said, These things that I touch and see are alone real, for he saw them without illusion at last, and found them but air and dust and moisture. So, what he's really saying is, here, he's talking about how investing reality in the evidence of the senses, the way the empiricists do, the way a certain scientific mode, the way a materialist does in England, is to disenchant them, to desacralise them, to turn them into air and dust and moisture. He's trying to get away from that sort of mentality to celebrate a deeper, more spiritual, more imaginative life. And, I mentioned Matthew Arnold before, Matthew Arnold taught that into the breach left by religion, culture would enter. And Yates is Arnoldian enough here to agree. He says, The arts are, I believe, about to take upon their shoulders the burdens that have fallen from the shoulders of priests. And to lead us back upon our journey by filling our thoughts with the essences of things and not with things. So, the essences of things are not to be revealed on surfaces' appearances, which is why it's so necessary to renovate literature, to throw away the realist forms in fiction and, indeed, in poetry of the 19th century and find new modes to find emblems adequate to our predicament, as Heaney would have called it. I'm just going to have a quick look at one of an early poem before moving into some of the later Yates's poems, in particular his response to political crisis and changes in Irish society and, indeed, European society. The poem I want to look at is actually very well known. It's from the Winds Among the Read, his 1899 volume, which published and written, I suppose, around this time, is still very marked with that dreamy, seductive, sensuous, descriptive language of the 1890s and also with very, very intense symbols.  But it also, I think, indicates many of the aesthetic and intellectual preoccupations which I've been talking about. It's probably been known to many of you. A poem which is itself a sort of a cloth insofar as it's written in one sentence and it kind of unfurls like a cloth, like a large cloth, it says. Had I, the heavens embroidered cloths in wrath with golden and silver light the blue and the dim and the dark cloths of night and light and the half light, I would spread the cloths under your feet, but I, being poor, have only my dreams. I have spread my dreams under your feet, tread softly, because you tread in my dreams. As I say, we have that opulence of the 1890s and intense sense of rich language with a very, very rich metaphor and a very unlikely metaphor such as a symbol effectively where the sky through a conceit through a conceit of the poetic mind becomes figured as a rich cloth and we have opposition between, therefore, opulence of language and a certain paucity of language which becomes very explicit in the final two lines and the final line where there's a kind of an arrest where the rich descriptive language becomes kind of arrested or pulled back where he says, but I've been poor of only my dreams and it's just one line. I think it's also significant the repetition of the word dreams at the end if he's making that word do more work or pulling back. So it's kind of, it's a poem which and I think it's proleptically modernist in this way anticipates a lot of modernist movement even though it's, in its date, it's a little bit before what we'd call high modernism enacts what it is expressing. In other words, its form reproduces what it's being said. Insofar as, the poem is like a big cloth, it unravels like a big cloth but it also pulls back at the end. It is a eight-lined poem doesn't quite pull back from being a sonor. If he did have more words he might have written the full 14 of a sonor, of a love sonor. But here he pulls back and therefore the poem is sort of indicating what it is expressing in its own form. So that's the eights of the 1890s. When he moves on as I mentioned, the multifaceted yates, the Yates of the Abbey Theatre, his collaborations with Lady Gregory and his involvement I suppose may be beginning, or most famously in his collection responsibilities with modern Irish life. Now I said at the time the Yates had a reacted against England but also the Irish middle classes which we associated with a mercantile and pinched impoverished values that he saw as antithetical to those reservoirs of idealism and community and organic connection with the wellsprings of truth which he saw as accessible still in West Ireland and rural Ireland and also through the remnants of aristocracy. So very anti-middle class. I know there are a few people in Ireland here so you will all know I'm going to give you a little brief quote from a very well-known and accessible poem which indicates that opposition to the middle class and it also indicates Yates' frustration with a certain torpor in Ireland. It's a poem which reads very ironically given what was about to happen. This is September 1913. Two stans is from it where he indicates this. Some of Yates' poems of the middle period are very angry. I think that's significant because one of the tones that you find in Yates which when it works is tremendously exhilarating is a first person, an I but also a sense of oratorical power such as we saw in the statues and such as we get in the great poems of the tower. But here he's being scornful when he says, what need you being come to sense but fumble in a greasy till and add the halfpence to the pence and prayer to shivering prayer until you have dried the marrow from the bone. For men were born to pray and save Romantic Ireland's dead and gone. It's with Olyry in the grave.  It's with Olyry in the grave. Olyry by the way is John Olyry an old fhenion who Yates knew in the 90s lived in France and we find here I think, I just wanted to indicate it because of Yates' the sense of disdain for a mercantile middle class who didn't have any what Yates saw as worthwhile values. Here there are also nationalist values, poetic values but nationalist ones which he would have aligned in which he calls Romantic Ireland. Romantic is a very interesting word in Yates. He describes in Cull Park he describes himself in the Irish Revivalist we were the last Romantics and he himself a huge part of his Europeanism is as influenced from by European Romantics and English Romantics particularly Blake and Shelley. Another one of his, Yates puts what he calls elsewhere the dream of the noble and the beggarman and he files an alignment between aristocratic values and folklore peasant values. So he finds a connection between the two. It's what John Millenton Sing who shared some of his very different figure but nonetheless in this respect could be compared talked about how the wild stallion and the thoroughbred are quite alike. Wildness and that which is bred to great achievements quite alike. So Yates loved annual Ireland the Irish the big house which he associated with high culture with a community which guaranteed cultural value these wonderful old houses with great paintings and not least because of his friendship with Lady Gregory where he went and spent summers for many years and wrote his collaborator Lady Gregory who he's spoken about in the exhibition here and he valorised aristocratic values and aristocratic beliefs and he does this and the politics of that are quite troubling for us sometimes. There are many poems I could look at but I'm going to look at another one of Yates's very famous poems which is an elegy for Lady Gregory's son Robert Gregory of whom Yates wrote a number of poems who died in the first world war he was an airman and he died in the first world war and Yates imagines him as a kind of a a kind of a Nietzschean ubermanch someone who was used above the normal run of the mill things he embodies a certain noble aristocratic value system which Yates is clearly very sympathetic towards and he writes this poem which is a poem which is an extraordinarily beautiful and accessible poem full of motifs of balance as he imagines this airman imagining his death it's called an Irish airman foreseas his death I'm sure many of you know it very well I'll just read it and maybe say a few words about it before moving on to another couple of poems I know that I shall meet my fate ok so the pagination has gone or the lines have gone a bit hay why here I'm afraid but nonetheless if you can imagine paragraph breaks where the big letters are or line breaks where the capitals are I know that I shall meet my fate somewhere among the clouds above those that I fight I do not hate those that I guard I do not love my country is Ciltarton cross my country men Ciltartons poor no likely end could bring them loss or leave them happier than before nor law nor duty bed me fight nor public men nor cheering crowds a lonely impulse of delight drove to this tumult in the clouds I balanced all brought all to mind the years to come seemed waste of breath a waste of breath the years behind in balance with this life this death a poem tremendously shot through with poise and balance in which lines we have effectively quatrains 16 line poem based upon quatrains of rhymes between love and above in love cross and last pour before alternating rhymes with loss and gain we have the years behind and the years to come and it culminates in that last quatrain I balanced all brought all to mind the years to come seemed waste of breath a waste of breath the years behind in balance with this life this death it's tremendously poetic effect poetically effecting but comes I think from a difficult politics it's difficult for us reading it because it comes from politics based upon an individual an aristocratic individual in this sense excelling transcending transcending the sort of ethic or the aesthetic of as I say a Nietzschean value system of someone who pulls themselves above there is this line my country is quatrains cross my country men quatrains pour quatrains by the way is the area around Cull Park where Lady Gregory Lady Gregory's house was and he's identifying with them sure enough but nonetheless he says no lore nor duty bet me fight nor public men nor cheering crides the impulse was if you like a self destructive impulse a lonely impulse of delight drove to this tumult in the clouds so it is if you like it actually I mean you talk about the politics it's also a sort of a poem celebrating suicide in actual fact he says the years I balanced all brought all to mind the years to come seemed waste of breath a waste of breath the years behind so there's we have this sort of strange and tremendously affecting combination of someone who is living more intensely than everybody else and their intense is intense living is becomes symbolized by the flight I know that I shall meet my fate it starts off but he's not yet ascended I know that I shall meet my fate somewhere among the clouds above then he's up there he's in the cloud a lowly impulse of delight drove to this tumult in the clouds but his consideration what we have here is a combination of someone who's living very very intensely and his intense living is leading to a sort of rejection of life so it's a poem which is very poetically effective but which is thematically politically troubling I don't think the two are separate I think this is a really interesting idea about all the modernist poets it's easy way to solve the problem of Yeats' politics simply to say oh the poetry is separate no I think quite often it's a little bit like cooking blowfish if it's not cooked to just the right way it's poisonous some of Yeats' poems are but out of that quite noxious politics you get an extraordinary effect of poems such as we get in later Yeats okay I think I started at about close to ten past did you say we have to finish at one or can I go a bit later please take another five minutes okay no that's fine because I started a little bit later I've got two more poems I want to look at one of them is quite long but it's very well known but I'll run through it quite quickly I think I wanted to look at it because of the mention of Pierce at the start and because of the mention of September 1913 when Yeats it's one of Yeats' really well known poems and again it's a it is a work which as what Yeats' tremendously you know is really great poems hinges between a concern with history politics a response to politics and myth something outside poetry something outside the everyday he doesn't simply retreat to his tower he wouldn't be a great poet if he did and abstract himself in symbols he's tremendously open to the forces of history and at the same time seeks a way of mythologising them and mediating this poem is a very well known poem the Partition of 1916 I'm going to look at but is a very ambivalent poem I think when I started it in school I remember doing it for the intershur as many of you probably did and I was seen as simply a tribute to the rebels it is a tribute to the rebels but it's an ambivalent response very ambivalent response and some of the lines which are taken from it will be familiar to you we talked about too long a sacrifice you can make a stone of the heart hearts with one purpose alone through summer and winter seem enchanted to a stone to trouble the living stream those lines often taken out as an indictment of fanaticism or at the same time the poem is used as a thing I think there's two strands in it but it is I think one of the great poems one of the great poems and one of the great poems in which a powerful imagination tries to consider and come to terms with an act which is a political a serious historical act but also a tragedy we find that this poem is a recognition of a growing tragedy I'll try to move through it relatively quickly I have met them at close of day coming with vivid faces from counter-desk among grey 18th century houses I have passed with a nod of the head or polite meaningless words or have lingered a while and said polite meaningless words and thought before I had done of a mocking tailor a jibe to please a companion around the fire at the club being certain that they and I would live to where mockly is worn all changed changed utterly a terrible beauty is born that woman's days were spent in ignorant goodwill her nights an argument until her voice grew shrill what voice more sweet than hers when young and beautiful she rode to Harriers this man had kept to school and rode our winged horse this other his helper and friend was coming into his force he might have won fame in the end so sensitive his nature seemed so daring and sweet his thoughts this other man I had dreamed a drunken and glorious lout he had done most bitter wrong to some who are near my heart yet I number him in the song he too has resigned his part in the casual comedy he too has been changed in his turn transformed utterly a terrible beauty is born hearts with one purpose alone through summer and winter seem enchanted to a stone to trouble the living stream the horse that comes from the road the rider the birds that range from cloud to tumbling cloud minute by minute they change a shadow of cloud on the stream changes minute by minute a horse who slides on the brim and a wharf plashes within it the long-legged moorhens dive and hens to Murcocks call minute by minute they live the stones in the midst of all too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart oh when may it suffice that is heaven's part our part to murmur name upon name as a mother names her child when sleep at last has come on limbs that had run wild what is it but nightfall no no not night but death was it needless death after all for England may keep faith for all that is done and said we know their dream enough to know they dreamed and are dead and what of excess of love bewildered them till they died I write it out in a verse McDonough and McBride and Connelly and Pierce now and in time to be wherever green is worn are changed, changed utterly a terrible beauty is born one of the ways this poem gets its shape is by moving from the vague to the particular from the first whatever green is worn at the end there that starts out as motley start at the at the very start we talked about being certain but they and I the last quatrain be certain that they and I would live where motley is worn motley is mixed colour that at the end becomes green and it's significant that that kind of idea of vagueness or mixed colour moves from them they are never named until the end so we get this notion of epitaph or tribute towards the end so he remembers it's quite colloquial he remembers meeting them going to his club many of them known to many of the insurgents are known because some of them are poets as he puts it in the next stanza it's four stanzas by the way it's not quite clear from this division because I had to break the second and the third stanza into two slides so he moves in the second stanza into moving a little bit more particular that woman which is Constance Markovits who he knew was a child and he energises elsewhere were spent in ignorant goodwill her knights of argument until her voice grew shrill this man had kept a school and rode our winged horse that's Patrick Pierce who were mentioned before kept a school famously Sandendas rode our winged horse is Pegasus who indicates poetry this other his helper and friend was coming into his force Thomas Macdonald he might have won fame in the end so we've moved from I've met them to having a name jet but more obvious descriptions but noticing the whole of the poem the alternating rhyme which creates a sense of momentum we've shorted parameter lines that woman's days were spent in ignorant goodwill her knights in argument until her voice grew shrill we've got this sense of momentum a sense of building up to something and how the poetic form and the choice of words indicates that sense of drive and momentum this is the second part of that second section this other man I had dreamed a drunken of a glorious lout well that's John McBride Maud Ghan's husband who was a for gates was abusive to Maud Ghan an result and Gates was not a fan but which is what he's referring to there yet I number him in my song he too and then he becomes explicit this move from comedy to tragedy the motley worn by the clown to the single colour he too has been changed in his turn transformed utterly a terrible beauty is born I have to say a terrible beauty is born a very striking line it's also I think we could say a terrible cliché is born because it has become one of the most cliché lines about our terrible beauty but that kind of I mentioned ambivalence and I mentioned conflict and I mentioned contrast and a terrible beauty is nonetheless incarnate stash Gates certainly a figure whose work embodies for all the the oratorical power of his verse poetry he says a significant quotation he said that rhetoric of our conflicts with others we make rhetoric of our conflicts with ourselves we make poetry so there is no distilling a single view from this from this poem I think we find both and that's incarnated in the terrible beauty but there is also a sense of awe recognition and humility that he has in the face of what's happened and a recognition of moment in this rising and he moves in that this is the third stanza note well at the third section note well at the end of the first two sections a terrible beauty is born first a terrible beauty is born second third section which is one very much dwelling in the natural world of change we don't get that refrain at the end we don't get a terrible beauty is born at the end of this partly because a terrible beauty is born indicates sort of a mythic realm whereas this is about the world of change and the world of change and movement and history which he sees fanaticism or rebellion as blocking but it's ambivalent I think in those lines I quoted often taken out to indict fanaticism the trouble is the living stream so on the one hand we can read that as a stone whose fixity the fixity and as if you like the petrification in the sense of something which is frozen and moveable contrasts with plenitude movement, dynamism fecundity, fertility, sexuality as opposed to something fixed and that's one way of reading it and that's the way I think it often is read when it's seen as simply an indictment of the rebels and political action there's also a sense that troubling the living stream but the stream without stones the stream of history is inactive, is unmovable so there's a sense I think in which the ambivalence that we're talking about is incarnated in this stanza Pegasus our winged horse in stanza has become the horse it's become an ordinary cart horse the horse that comes from the road the ride of the birds that range cloud to tumble and cloud minute by minute they change a horse who slides in the brim a horse plashes within it change this is not this is very much about nature aligned with the changing moving world there's sort of a sense of amnesia here because everything's changing minute by minute but it's change it goes to fixity the poem in some ways in its meter and its rhythm is about change in terms of build everything's changing quickly and it's driving us forward in the way we read it but it's also about permanence because it's aware of itself as a poem and of course we get repetition in rhyme we get repetition in the way it's rhymed and then we move to the the final section where again much quoted too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart and then we move to I think one of Yeats' most interesting poetic devices which he uses a lot which is questions Yeats often uses questions in his poetry and the temptation of a reader is to answer them but I think that in this case they're not really answered a when made suffice because heaven's part our part to murmur name upon name as a mother name for charge pulling back I mentioned the humility he felt he doesn't want to name it and he's tempted into poetic cliché he's tempted into the cliché here of calling death sleep which is a very venerable technique from the Renaissance oh what is it that night fell and he goes no no he's not going to sweeten it his duty here his very noble duty is to bear witness is to give recognition and elegy and he says no no what is not allowed for no no not night but death was it needless death after all for England making faith a reference to the home rule bill that's been passed that would come in after the first world war for all that is said we know they're dreamed enough to know they dreamed and are dead and then he moves in the final section between these intimate images the mother naming her child excess of love to public commemoration that's one wonderful thing about this poem is the way it combines these oppositions fixity and movement private and public tragedy and comedy and we move forward into action just naming just paying recognition in this extraordinary ambivalent poem I'm going to wrap it up there because I wanted to leave it for a few minutes thank you very much for your patience well let's see whether there are any questions please one please when did Yates die 39 39 so he lived until are you in the second world war yes he lived in the second world war that's why he fought he had a bit of a feud with Ezra Pound I think most people had a feud with Ezra Pound he did I mean Ezra Pound wrote a like a a sardonic tribute under a bear by a bowman's box noise opposed twice the size of William Shakespeare this is what he writes under a bear by a bowman's box noise and OIS opposed twice the size OIC of William Shakespeare or so they say down by Lee Killey's shocking way so he's kind of writing a sardonic tribute to him but yes but he worked very closely with Pound Pound is at the centre of European right enables everybody, enables a publication of Joyce when Elliot, effectively writes the way Islam and collaborates with Yates over many years they go to Stone Cottage I said just one word in defence of Yates because I said a few things criticising him of his politics there is nothing in Yates which is anti-Semitic unlike, yeah no there is a trace of anti-Semitic who was an anti-Semitic unlike Elliot and unlike I have to say more gone there was no anti-Semitism in Yates for whatever noxious aspects of politics there exists particularly in the 30s because Yates does get some quite shocking political views in the 30s so you're just kidding around when you write the what part of that is the echo show which part are you talking about? I thought it would be a similar thing who are we talking about Yates? no it's with Pound right it's always sponsored to the like audience oh yeah it is Pound is mocking and playing and yeah they had a long relationship it was important you can talk quite a lot about that Viglord's very persuasively I'm just thinking the rebels of 1916 almost seemed to embody one side of the Yates that Viglord's now the romantic and the anti-Semitic and it was astonishing how anti-Semitic those rebels were in their preparations and their sort of strategic stupidity they would say and I wonder that he was ambivalent about them and their the results that they brought or failed to bring in so on yeah I think that's right in terms of I think he was very struck and other elegies he's written like 16 dead men he talks about blood making the tree grow so instantly left history and entered myth because it became about sacrifice and became about failure in order to create other greatness so kind of and that was all tied in with Pierce's Christian imagery and the idea of Christ and the fact that it happened to Easter and all these things so Yates is it cleaves to it because yeah I mean you're talking about scientific but we could maybe use a different word pragmatic there's sort of a different sort of pragmatism Michael Collins scorned it he said he had an hour of a Greek tragedy and he meant that as an insult but there's a certain sense in which yes that kind of I mean it's a very troubling thing I think but a kind of ethic or myth of failure is something that which failure becomes success is something that he's drawn to yeah a lady over there I'm reminded of a beautiful event in the context where failure becomes success however I wanted to ask you a question it interested me when looking into Yates's life in this exhibition and hearing you talk how did this man who is anti-materialist and middle class know the kind of values how did he support himself as a poet all that time and bring up children well I mean it's a very good question and I think a fair one and I think we the one thing we don't look for in Yates is consistency you know I don't think he can claim it he I mean look famously Yates when news came round it was a delegation that went round to his house in 23 when he won the Nobel Prize someone from the mayor's office I think came round to the repressor round and he opened the door to the house when he was told and the first question was when he got the news how much right so I mean Yates was certainly and even he could see letters back when he marries Georgie Georgie Hadlees Georgie Hadlees he kind of everyone's writing back you know she's rich of course but I'm not trying to make him into some sort of a rapacious goldier I'm just saying that he was certainly there was a lot of indigents when he was growing up it must have been hard I mentioned his father earlier his father gave up a promising law career to become an artist and move the family to London so he would have had poverty when he was you know not poverty but certainly insecurities around that front but he had a lot of benefactors certainly as he won the Nobel Prize he was facious and a very successful poet Lady Gregory gave him a lot of support he went there and lived there so for every summer she took care of him and made him hot water bottles and hot milk and you know but he was able by the time remember he got married late so when you ask how he afforded the family he got married in his ffifties and was a hugely famous international poet a lecturer senator and he was able to afford a tower to her bali li in Galway which was also became a symbol of his poems or symbol of his poems should I say Any further questions? That's a very good question I wasn't a problem for him he didn't learn Irish he was very interesting I mean this is I think unlike Sing Sing learned Irish and spoke it very well and went to Aaron and conversed at Gates's advice so Gates would have his beliefs went to Aaron and conversed Gates didn't and he kind of but I think that his attitude to the Galic League would have been very complicated other people of his class and caste like Douglas Hyde obviously Protestant leads the Galic League and would have been part of his background Gates didn't I mean Gates had certain problems with language I think he was with language generally not just the Irish language but learning languages and he was an extraordinary genius a great poet but was probably dyslexic I think could never spell if you look at his letters it's quite extraordinary psychology with an S the story goes that he applied once applied at the best of his friends probably looking for security for a chair in Trinity College Dublin he didn't really go to art college he never had a third level education like many others did like Joyce did for instance albeit in another university and he didn't get the job in this chair because he put two Fs in professor so he had there is kind of loads of stories like that about his spelling so I think that I don't think he would have been a naturally gifted linguist I don't think he was ill-disposed to the Irish language at all but he came in for a lot of criticism from a certain sort of nationalist in the early years of the 20th century who would have been hostile to the Abbey and hostile to him and his enterprise because they would have seen it as a tendency condescension and not authentic nationalism so someone like Daniel Corkery would have criticised Daniel Warren for that D.P. Moran, E.H.'s great nemesis editor of the leader would have seen him as inauthentic but I think E.H.'s would have argued and did argue for the validity of an English language Irish literature let's take one more question it's really a footnote to a question that's already been asked I had the brother Graham a decade ago of the National Wandering Historian for the Centenary of Federation and Richard O'Brien helped to get me to Ireland for a sort of lecture to it and I lectured at the Gregory Kiltarton Kiltarton Gregory Museum in Galway the museum was clear and the seeds were put in and it was filled with farmers and I talked to the farmers about an Australian politician John Glyn who's a very interesting character for lots of reasons but I asked the assembled company about Lady Gregory's patronage of Yates and there was a high level of discontent with that question but somehow the poet lived by his poetry and not by royal patronage or aristocratic patronages at work so it was interesting to see at the local level of the town of Kiltarton and pretty close to Balunin this level of hostility about Yates' actual poetry they thought it was a sort of parasite no no no I think they thought that somehow poets lived by poetry and they lived on poetry and it was wonderful Yates would have been very aware of two things the Irish tradition of the sea being associated with Chieftain he would have been associated with that in those 18th century like much older traditions in the Irish tradition he also would have been associated because he wrote about it in his poems when he's complaining about the attitudes of patrons of the arts of the Di-Medici's and of the Fuller Ancient sponsorship so I don't think Yates would have had any problem with the idea that mere business people should give their money to something as great as a great poet a lot of generous women in his life I would like to call for seeing this to an end Professor Nagomwch will be here to answer any further questions in formal setting if you would like to do that I would like to thank the Embassy of Ireland again for their support for this event and I would like to thank you all for coming of course please, if you haven't done so already please sign the visitor's book which is at the entrance of the building and you can leave your business card if you would like to be informed about future events here at the Centre for European Studies there are also flyers about upcoming events including the event that I mentioned previously next Tuesday let's thank Professor MacDonald again for his support


Is life becoming possibly a little too complicated even for the rich and the famous because there's some recent tragedies that kind of point to something.  The sister of Elaine Chow, who is the wife of Mitch McConnell. Long story short, she was driving her Tesla on her Texas compound, mistaken the gear box basically the forward for the reverse back into her own pond and ended up drowning tragically. And a lot of people are asking is life just becoming too complicated because recently there have been some really high profile deaths of people who even come from families that are billionaires essentially. And yeah, I just think that is something that's sparking a lot of discussion right now. Obviously, both on the physical side and people are actually questioning if Teslas are too complicated to navigate. But then a lot of people are saying, man, is this just life in general in 2024. So anyway, guys, we're going to get into it, Andrew. Yeah, I think a lot of people are just saying, you know, these high profile billionaire deaths, they sort of highlight something that everybody might be going through. But just it only gets highlighted when it's a certain segment of the population. Yeah, I mean, you're going to hear about when someone rich and powerful and famous passes away, no matter how bad it is or how tragically or I guess how much people expected. But obviously unexpectedly, it's going to it's going to make news because I think that even as a regular person who's not rich and famous, you're going to be like, whoa, I thought like rich and famous people like that kind of stuff didn't happen. Right. For examples, what happened the tragic death of Susan Wojcicki's son, you almost think that that's just like, oh, that happened to a dude at my high school, but not the billionaires. Yeah, I mean, even Kobe's death, right? They're flying in a helicopter. Oh, rich and famous. But but he thinks that he's going to go through a foggy day and then something terrible happens. Obviously, obviously, like if you look at the details of Angela Chow and the reason why we're talking about her is, you know, not just because she's Asian, but she is involved in the Asian community on some, you know, internal level. But I guess there was like a lot of different factors that came into play. It was probably the evening time. I heard she had had some drinks. She was celebrating something. Even her friends try to come out and save her. But but none of them were prepared. It couldn't help her, you know what I mean? So it was just a whole perfect storm of elements that would lead to something that almost like it seems crazy to like drowning your car in your backyard. Yeah. Yeah. And it's crazy that it's like because there was a lot of arguing. There's still a lot of arguing right now of whether you blame the car or you blame the driver or are we as citizens, Andrew, more responsible for navigating a more complicated world? Right. And then the question is, yeah, are there too many buttons, too many panels on a Tesla or one of these new cars? Like I've hopped in these new cars in Ubers, right? I don't own a car right now myself.  Would you agree, Andrew, that for a boomer, they might not even be able to figure out how the door handle on a Tesla works? Dude, even for a Gen X for a millennial guys, anybody like there's a lot of buttons, you know? And and do we need to go back to a more simplified world? That's my question, I guess. Are things at some point better because like our brains as humans, our brains are not any better than they were 300 years ago, essentially. I've obviously the things around us are better, but like things are so much more complicated with creatures of habit or something like that. The world is so much more complicated than it was 300 years ago. Can our brains even handle it? Well, for example, on old school cars, I want to say for like decades and decades and decades, usually when you're going to put the car in a drive, you put it back almost like a throttle on like a fighter jet, right? When you're trying to accelerate, but nowadays on some of the EVs or something like that, you just tap back on the screen to indicate you want the car to go back. Right. And maybe there's a learning curve with that because, you know, the next generation is not going to have a problem hitting buttons.  This car is not moving. Right. The car was physically you were physically pulling the break of the car into like lockup status. Obviously, this is not the only case of this famous actor Anton Yelchin was crushed RIP to him by his own Jeep grand Cherokee, because when he put it into park, the gear would slide back into a position where it was unclear if it was parked or not. Oh, wow. Yeah. And there was a gigantic lawsuit about that. They had to like change it up or like do a firmware update. Yeah. I do think I'll say this when it comes to and we're going to get into the society later. But when it comes to the cars, there might need to be more standardization on how the instrument panels work, because on one car, it could be a cruise control button. And then on another car, that could be the park button. So nothing is standardized. There is that causes confusion. There's a learning curve. People got to process new things. Right. There push the button start, Andrew, the BMWs.  Yeah. Sometimes, like, especially if it was a hybrid, like the engine is so quiet, you can't even tell if it's on or off until you get out of the car.  What is it doing on? What is the responsibility of people to learn their new cars?  There's there's like a 10 page manual that comes with anything you order from Amazon anymore. But I don't think the propensity for the average citizen to read that 10 page manual has gone up. Yeah, I do think that people are underestimating how complicated things are. And they figure, Hey, I got this nice car. I know how to use it, but it's not intuitive. It's not built into you yet, you know. So yeah, I mean, if you haven't been driving Tesla's for years, you're about to maybe make a mistake. Right, right, right.  It's like, you need to, you know, just use the touchscreen. You need to be really well versed to make it, especially in the dark, you know, it's just not going to have the same intuitiveness that you developed from your previous vehicles. Ultimately, man, one thing I learned is that a lot of people from these like tragic incidents and they go so viral, there's a lot of different factors involved. Like you said, when it's like any time there's a tragedy, oftentimes it's not always, but there's usually like a stack of events that happened, you know, in a row. Like for example, I remember there was these kids that we knew, not that we knew, but like we knew of them and this is back in LA and they would always go have a few drinks at this bar, a few towns over and they would drive back and it was just along the 10 freeway. It's really easy. It's really flat. You can't really like it's just a straight line, but they were doing work on the 10. So they had to take a detour through a completely different highway and they got rerouted through like an overpass. And I remember the kids had a few drinks and they fell over the overpass and that led to me and obviously RIP that not all of them survived. But I'm saying that it's this storm of like, first of all, you shouldn't be drinking and driving, right? But then had the 10 freeway that they always had written on for like 10 years been the exactly the same. Then but there was like an additional wrench thrown in there. Yeah. So I guess what I'm saying is things, they just stack in complexity. But I think in modern day life in 2024, there's more ways to stack complexity, even like your car's instrumentation panel. Yeah. And also people get comfortable nearby home. I mean, that's when most accidents happen. You feel comfortable. You're like, goes and offer. You're like, I know you're letting your guard down. I know these streets, you know, and also you've had some drinks very, very common for people, man. Yeah. So anyway, guys, let us know what you think in the comments section below.  It's just an interesting debate. But you could argue that this goes for a lot of areas of society, especially as we go forward with technology guys. RIP to Angela Chow. And of course, everybody who dies in these styles of tragedies, but of course, it's much higher profile when it is somebody, you know, of that stature. Let us know what you think in the comment section below. Until next time, we're the Hop Hop Boys. We out. Peace.


There are several ways to identify an enumerator. Each enumerator is provided for an ID card. The ID card would have the CSO logo, along with the census logo as well. Added to that, the enumerator will be wearing a census t-shirt, which is green. But equally important is that that enumerator should have a device, a tablet device, which would have a questionnaire on it. You, as a respondent, can request the enumerator to show you the questionnaire. And the actual questions are being asked of you to verify that this is an authentic official officer or enumerator from the Central Statistical Office. It's just to ensure that as the census proceeds and as officers visit the respective households, that the persons who would be requesting that information of them are the genuine and official enumerators from the Central Statistical Office. There are several numbers that you can contact the Central Statistical Office. We actually have a census hotline. And also you could also reach us by the usual direct line to the office. We have several, so feel free to contact the department to verify that whoever is visiting your household and requesting information of you is a genuine and authentic officer represented and allowed to do so by the Central Statistical Office.


So here's the solution to global warming and saving the world's fish. It's really simple solution It's just a security camera for the fish. So let me explain. There's this documentary Netflix is really interesting It's called sea spiracy. They have an agenda, but it's really interesting It's showing a lot of the problems that are around the world with fishing and one of the problems is by catch And it's a huge problem. These fishing companies are out in the sea. Nobody is checking them Nobody is able to check what they're doing. So what they should have on the boat is actually a security camera with AI that logs every Shark dolphin turtle or whale or whatever? Illegal catch or by catch, you know like they catch they don't really do it on purpose But they could be more careful and they could plan better how they fish So you have this solo powered Security camera with AI that can log these and they can even report in real time to the Starlink satellite network With a phased array antenna a cheaper one that could be developed does need to have a steady connection But that just can send a little bit information once in a while out there in the sea. That's possible It can be done for very cheap fifty a hundred dollar We can make a security camera that can even work peer-to-peer with several security camera on one ship and then Synchronize this information later. It's also possible to synchronize of a Wi-Fi or over the three a 3g or some SIM card That can synchronize when it gets back to the harbor and then it's tamper proof hacking proof So if a lot of by catch happened, it would be logged in a system The fishing vessels will be much more careful. It might increase the price of fish a little bit It might right but it will save the whales It will save the the sharks and the dolphins and turtles and whatever else is there that we are not supposed to be destroying and It might even also log any lost fishing nets Maybe because the AI could potentially also notice if some fishing nets get discarded by mistake or you know Doesn't come back. It has night vision. So this is not technology. That's out of this world. It's easy The Shenzhen companies are shipping millions of security cameras every day. They're doing high quality security cameras now They do 4k they have very detailed views and they even have AI on the armchip sets You can have AI built-in that can identify whatever you wanted to learn So you can just teach it to the identified dolphins and sharks and and turtles and and whales and whatever else is needed to be Identified and you can also identify overfishing if the fish too much There will be a sensor on the thing and if it's direct satellite backlink It actually might be helpful to alert the other fishing vessels in the area that maybe be careful There's a bunch of sharks here. You prefer not to fish them. So it will actually help in real time Kind of like alert the other boats and might help them So actually it could be useful if it has real-time connection, but maybe the real-time aspect is not required So here's the idea if a lot of people like my idea You can support here and I guarantee I make it happen We go to Shenzhen. We make it happen The product is going to be available and we try to market it to the MSc label or to some Organization that work with kind of like putting labels on fish in the supermarket Or we can try to convince some government some little country like Denmark or something that they have to do it and then if one of them start to think it's a good idea, maybe all of them will be forced into it kind of and this is a little bit the idea and If we we are not able to get it done Everybody gets at least 80% refund, right? So if for some reason is too complicated or the Shenzhen companies don't want to do it We don't really have a price like a required pricing So it might be a little bit more expensive than a hundred dollars. Hopefully it can be done for less than a hundred dollars That's what I imagine but maybe it'll be a little bit more because it's like industrial It needs to be working any every weather. It needs to have a battery and solar charge. It needs to be working even with a lot of rain and Humidity it needs to work at night It needs to Maybe also have this peer-to-peer networking so you can have different angles of the security camera Like you have security cameras everywhere You can have a different angles on the boat on this side of the boat on the other side of the boat on the side of the boat And they could all network together. This is simple idea. I think it's simple I think it's easy to solve and I really think it's a technical solution to the all this fishing problem that we have So let's solve it. Why not? So let me just explain just a little bit why this solves global warming Maybe at least it solves a part of the global warming problem Which is the ocean and the ocean problem as far as I understand in terms of the fishing is that it the this by-catch and this overfishing and this the discarded nets is Destroying the coral reefs and is destroying a whole bunch of stuff that generates all the algae and the ecosystem is being Disrupted when the big fish disappear the small fish Thrive and it's not really supposed to be they're supposed to be scared of the big fish And if they're not there's no more big fish then there's too many small fish. Okay. I know it's a I'm not an expert So it's really it's all about the ecosystem We can make an open-source software solution open-source hardware solution for security cameras for every Fishing boat in the world and it could be an open platform as easy to verify platform and every time There's a logged by-catch. It would be a photographic or video video evidence So people can always watch it again and say oh there was not a dolphin That was actually what I was supposed to fish they can always argue it later and and this this will all be in the cloud and developed very easily By the software development company that we can work with to do this and the the manufacturer in Shenzhen So if you want to support this your name will be on the website forever We can build a website of all the people that made this happen And so people know forever and you can promote your company or your your Twitter handle or your Facebook page whatever you want to promote as people will click on and see the people who supported this project and how much people Contributed to make it happen and we'll show if this gets successfully funded. We'll show updates I'll post new videos and I'll show day by day what we're doing to get it happen to make it happen to show How we get it done and who we partner with and how much it is going to cost each of the devices at the end We try to get the cost as low as possible because we need to make sure that every fishing vessel has these installed Either they have to pay it for them themselves if they want to have the label or somebody's gonna put them on these boats and Ask them to to to use them and they will be a way to really make sure that the nobody cheats on the system. I'll be Transparent. All right. Thanks for watching