I promise you guys I have a chance to talk in a minute. We're going to break out But if we could get back on to the back on schedule with the program, I'd really appreciate it. Can you hear me? It's not very well So we got thank you Appreciate it. I've also been instructed that we are we are being Streaming I guess on the webcast and so we will try not that we can't really deviate from the schedule anymore So we wanted to make sure that we gave you guys a break But from here on out I think we're going to try and stick to the schedule as much as possible So if you are one of our speakers, we appreciate all the work and all the time that you've put into this But if you see a splash in a five-minute sign, please not to take a fence Try not to take offense to that We just want to make sure that we stay on schedule with them with the media and so what I'd like to do next because we are behind is I Be remiss though if we didn't announce a few people that are here though that have come in that are part of the initiative that are part of this partnership Looking through my names here for a second But I want to recognize a touch of the Texas Association of Chicano's in higher education from C school is here with us today Marty with GenTex, Marty if you could Audrey from Advice Texas is here Audrey And I believe Isenia Bernal from the San Antonio Hispanic Chamber. Yes. Yes, and yeah, sorry. I Have a daughter named Isenia, so yes, and yeah These individuals are part of a collaborative again. We've been talking about this diploma. So we're gonna talk a lot more about that tomorrow, but All that those that I've mentioned our partners in this initiative along with the San Antonio education partnership the mayor's office The community college district that we had the Alamo Community College district as well as UTSA and Texas A&M Kingsville In addition to all the school districts that are here today so all of you are partners with us in this and I guess just to sum up what we heard in all the presentations and focusing on the really good stuff that you guys are doing and And I think that's really what we're trying to get done here Is it how do we come together as a collective to help you move the needle and much of what you talked about? If you think about it or not only what happens in the classroom and how do you prepare them? Your students to be college ready But also the psych the social Socio-economic factors that occur before and after school and on weekends and even some of the psychosocial Factors that occur as well And so this is how the partnership that exists in this diploma or exists to help you To augment those kind of things you're doing and we want to help help you achieve those goals And so we're gonna talk a lot more about that the rest of the day and then I get tomorrow So without further ado though one of the major partners that we have is the mayor Cosworth's office and representing mayor Cosworth's office, and I have a pleasure of working with daily is Gene Russell. So Gene I have the best job here because I get to introduce Greg Darniter who is a personal friend Who I think so many of you in the room through either work on FAFSA or gear up or just as a thought partner in Thinking about how do we do this work around really sitting ambitious goals in terms of connecting college access? enrollment readiness completion and so I Just wanted to give you those of you who don't know Greg kind of a quick sketch About his personal background because I think it sort of ties everything. We're trying to do here together Greg has worked in this field for more years than he probably cares to count But from a multi perspective so he's been a funder He worked for many years in the Chicago public schools really designing the same kind of frameworks and Aggressive goals and then implementing them that we're talking about doing here today And now he carries this message from the Department of Ed So he's trying to hear from places like ourselves. So I'm sure he heard you don't fan And take that back and figure out how can we do that systemically across our country? And and mostly he lives out of a suitcase going to communities like ours really helping us kind of think through this work And so I'm really grateful for the work that Greg is doing and has done I think we figured it's his sixth visit to San Antonio So he's been a tremendous friend to our community and I just want to welcome Greg But before I bring Greg up I quickly wanted to let people know we we had some people fill in the back That are some funders this ties again to the work that Greg's going to talk about this work We is really your work But we want to figure out how everyone in the community can be supportive of it whether it's from the mayor's office Whether it's from the funding community whether it's from our nonprofit partners who are also in the room So that's they said they just want to be flies on the wall, so don't you know I'm not going to announce them by name, but that's who's joined us in the back. So Greg Take it away So I was looking through my notes on a plane ride yesterday And Some folks in my National League of Cities We were part of the front end I guess Planning process for two days So I love coming back here She's trying to give me a fireplace here But no, I just love coming here and But I want to do this pick up on some of our points and pick up on some of the points that were made by each of the districts here Someone connected to club of impact someone connected to the importance of data and the such And You can hear from you again tomorrow. I literally have been only back in DC in five days since Labor Day All right, hey, hey friends of women, okay, so So this all started you can blame me for your being in the room today to some extent and then you can blame Jacob And then I shared it with Roxanne and with Jean Because last summer I went to St. Louis and TG put some funds in and we brought I think with seven or eight school districts together for a two-day college and career planning process and Some of the funders from St. Louis were actually ones who organized this in terms of the Mechanics of the day and the such and TG put up some some knowledge actually make it happen but And it I have to you confess for those of you some of you have heard me speak before But I do come to these conversations with a lot of biases around school counselors One of the things that Jean didn't mention was that I started the middle-grade teacher middle-grade teachers I know there's and supervisors some of you are in the room, right? Why are you being bashful? Okay, so So I come with Those biases I also come with the buy a strong bias because of my Chicago work around the power of data Judy and I were in Milwaukee Five or six weeks ago for the stride conference anybody else there for stride a couple others, okay? and so this whole collective impact Conversation and the power of that When it's driven and I say this because I experienced it under Arnie's leadership In that case from a school district and in Chicago's case, we had a brain mayor daily along but in your case you have a mayor that's really leading us and for lots of different reasons very powerful reasons and As far as I'm concerned, that's where the most powerful work in the country is going on these days It's when you have a mayor or school superintendent and higher-ed president who actually Get the power of the importance of education in terms of the economic future of their city of their Communities and such and they're driving these kind of conversations but the st. Louis experience was really powerful because These this was like oh, it's not just working in district by district. It's actually districts coming together This Patrick was referring to this earlier in terms of we're in this together, right? As a San Antonio community and such and there's such power when we get we get to the When we get to the point of actually concerted coordinated efforts Across the community and tomorrow When you see me again, I'll share some of my stories from the road if you will In terms of some really powerful work quite honestly, that's that's happening in rural communities As powerfully as it is in many urban communities Across across this country But and I'm really interested in just keep continuing to learn from you and to kind of see this process So in less than two and a half years at least, you know My own experience was that initial two-day convening in July of 2010 There is this kind of This continued action has been happening. It's and it's been happening in a coordinated way It's not just happenstance and there's people in this room that have been facilitating those conversations and and the power of the possibility if you will and Many communities across this country don't have what you have here And many times it's it's hard to appreciate what you have when you aren't able to compare it, you know to what's happening in other places so Congrats on last week's early childhood victory. That was huge One of the one of the one of the consistent Conversations I heard particularly from school counselors in this ten weeks that I've been on the road From rural America to urban America was how important it is to start seeding this kind of career and college Message with their kindergarten And their first grade students it was and these were not Orchestrated conversations. It just kept coming up and really interesting in creative ways and I'll share some of those examples tomorrow, but So Anybody see 60 minutes last Sunday Okay, 60 minutes President's been talking that there are three million jobs available today right now good-paying job So what is 60 minutes do? it does us a Part of it shows Sunday on advanced manufacturing Because some of you heard me speak that there's Secretary Duncan has talked about this the president talks about it he tends to talk about much broader numbers That there's four to five hundred thousand advanced manufacturing jobs available today right now That are unfilled because of this mismatch between the labor force and expectations of business So what is 60 minutes do they do a segment on advanced manufacturing opportunities 500,000 jobs available today folks in the country and where do they go to? Nevada highest unemployment rate in the country right and they find a manufacturer outside of Las Vegas Who is desperately seeking employees? willing to start them at 50 or 60 thousand dollars a year Because what do they do they they make fasteners for the aerospace? zero spaces And they need people who can run machinery that's all computerized that Because these fasteners have to be calibrated down to one one thousandth of an inch if I remember correctly, right? Then they have to be able to verify that when a fastener comes out that it meets those facts So they need people who can do some math to be able to do this and they're having trouble They had 20s basically adults In this class training these men To to run this machinery Fascinating it was like Emphasize some of these points that we've been trying to make But this is right an issue of alignment between K-12 and higher ed and the workforce needs that exists. I used to hear this plea in Chicago from west side of Chicago in the city small manufacturers when I was running TTE all the time Right. We were desperate for employees One of the points the segment did was it illustrated how a lot of their current workforce is gonna be retired and they Are either gonna go out of business or They're gonna transfer those jobs overseas But these are good paying jobs available today three million of them another half million six hundred thousand in the medical industry Drive down the highway Almost every other semi seems to have a sign on the back call 1-800. You need drivers, right? They're supposedly two hundred thousand truck driver. That was it jobs available across the country today So anyways the opportunities in many ways could be greater As we kind of embrace this this challenge So what I want to do is kind of build off what I heard I was asked to kind of reflect a guess or comment on what I heard so these are not meant to be criticisms in any way because you were given like ten minutes to tell your story and and then sit down And have conversations after I Put the microphone down and figure out how to to move your work to the next level. So these are not criticisms and they might be aspects of Things that you're doing, but we just didn't have time to mention and the subject. So my first reflection is Middle-grade And my question back to you is do you see most of the data we saw and maybe this was because of the templates You were given to fill in and such was around high schools And Northside Debbie mentioned some of the stuff they were doing actually going back to kindergarten That went beyond the academic in terms of you know, the holistic child if you will and the supports and the such Which I think is a critical dynamic here but One question I just put out there. How do you envision your strategies? Beyond high school Now, let me just reflect on on the challenge. We have in Chicago. So we had about 15 percent of our students exceeding standards And then we had 50 to 60 percent every year kind of in that middle ground Who were meeting standards or just a little bit below being standard sort of thing So it was like how do we push this huge number of students forward in that meeting standards? To exceeding standards. So what do we do on the academic side? What do we do on the college knowledge side? What do we do on the non-cognitive side? If you will, what do we do on the social emotional side and the such? Because I think it's gonna be really difficult if we just envision this challenge of getting whether it's a San Antonio 2020 goal Of 50 percent or luminous 60 percent or how are you envisioning? How are you gonna move your data if you only envision it as a high school strategy? And I think that's part of what I was referring to and talking about how this kind of constant Consistent conversation across the country of starting and pre-kindergarten kindergarten Become so critical And so so just just one One one observation. I love the conversation when I come to San Antonio about building systems Because I don't know how we're gonna achieve any of these goals if we do it school by school program by program if we don't If we don't view it as districts building systems both internally and then with their community Which is why I love the collective impact theory of change because it broadens the responsibility behind you as educational leaders To say this is what mayor Castro gets right. This is our challenge of the community. It's the faith base It's the it's the civic community. It's the higher ed community. It's the business community This is our challenge as a city as a community and so But to do that and really move and and take advantage of The three million current jobs or the 24 million additional college grads that that luminous as we need We're only arguing from administration standpoint of needing 8.2 million additional post-secondary degree completers additional above and beyond right so there's this building of systems between you as district leaders and in your Colleagues in other sectors. This is hard. I don't know if any of you have seen the recent College Board report survey on school counselors If you haven't seen it go to their site downloaded But one of the and they interviewed surveyed both school counselors and their principals Because they were looking for Alignment or disconnects in terms of does the mission of the district align with what? School counselors experience in their day-to-day responsibilities or how much of a disjuncture is there they wanted to know Just for school counselors You feel you were adequately trained in your programs of study to get your masters in school counseling To do the job that you're doing You know what that percentages only 16% of school counselors in the country About that their master's program prepared them for their duties and responsibilities once they got hired There's obviously a huge disconnect there We had some insight into that in that less than 10% of The master's programs in school counseling even offer a single course in college and career access Even one course and there's only five or six universities in the entire country that offer a Masters in school counseling slash college and career readiness only five or six John Hopkins has one they graduate 18 or 20 students a year There's 110,000 I think school counselors at the secondary level in the country So we have a huge knowledge skill gap to achieve this goal When our if we don't support our school counselors in really substantive and strategic ways going going forward Another challenge I put on the table And this is where data comes in so it was when Horry was Talking as making some notes myself about the grocery business, you know So all I know about the grocery business is that I go to a grocery store two or three times a week on my way home from work, right and so but They hooked me all the time right because I'm a coca-cola at it and I wrote to The southern thing right, but I'm from the north But I know that Coke I'm addicted to like the 20 ounce one. They are like when I walk down the Soda. They're like an eye level, right? Coke is they're not on the bottom shelf Right, they're not on the top shelf. They're like right there so The grocery business is I assume interested in total sales per day per week, maybe by the hour They are interested in the number of customers that come through their stores They're interested in The average dollar that we spend, you know, maybe between eight nine o'clock in the morning and between 11 and one and you know in the day or on the way home So they're those are kind of outcome measures, right? They're they're related to their profitability and and the such but behind those numbers is another whole strategy In terms of placing that coke at eye level so that I don't have to bend over and pick it up in the bottom shelf Because there might be less of a possibility that I would do that They're interested in the labeling of the product to get my attention to get our attention, right? They're interested in and that's the label or the placement of the product is related to this But they're really interested in measuring the sales But there's a strategy behind increasing those sales and there's probably lots of negotiation between vendors in terms of who gets the eye level space and Who gets the bottom shelf? and it just hit me that in terms of Measuring high school graduation rates or college enrollment rates or ACT for you know Test-taking rates and the such those are all things that kind of are indicators at the end but inside of getting and affecting those metrics our strategies Our whole set of strategies so Let me reflect back on Because I don't see this much in Education yet, but we're getting there and that is the power of data analytics To not only understand and know what our trends are in graduation rates ACT taking rates and all of that We need to understand that but in order to affect those as we know there's a set of strategies and I was a gene sent me Materials that you guys had presented in terms of resources available and such So there's a huge number of best practices going on across your debt districts You know your go centers and you're here college advisors advisors and having a place like cafe college You know doing collective types of activities across districts and celebrating whether it's national merit winners or it's It's faster completion or whatever it is But behind all of that is a whole set of strategies That are either going to work or not work And what I was interested in when I ran this work in Chicago was yes those outcome strategies But I was as interested in Students who are in current technical ed by program of study who were also in habit Who were also taking AP classes Let me started to analyze You know not just CTE as a for he made this point not just as a broad number. That's interesting I used to call him curious points of interest. Oh, that's interesting. Okay, so what do you you know? But we had a philosophy that if we're going to measure anything and take the time to measure it it also meant That we were going to do something about Otherwise why we were going to measure it now there are certain data that we have to measure for state and federal Requirements in the such but beyond that why are we measuring anything that we're and Producing as far as I said, you know endless volumes of information if we're not committed to doing something about it How about kids who are taking what's the relationship between kids who are in AP? Okay, we had lots of examples but how about AP and Abbott if your theory of change is Just AP while you're going to have a set of Strategies, but maybe there's additional insight if we start cross-referencing students who and creating smaller subgroups to understand What's what's happening with them? How about kids in? Upward bound where your high school has a relationship with Trinity or one of the other colleges or a talent search Grant, how about what are you learning? Those of you have Europe? What are you learning from Europe that can affect? Your district your high schools when those funds go away? A number of districts see Europe because of its cohort as the perfect research and development pot of money Let's do it Europe funds federal funds a set of activities that We expect to have an impact on but that we can leave behind In the district because if it's good for those those cohorts of Europe students. Why wouldn't it be good? for the students right behind them who might not be or have that Have that have that opportunity This is the type of question. We're actually asking at the department Is what's the added value of federal investments? 1.2 billion dollars a year in Europe and trio alone every year 1.2 billion in terms of the exact indicators that each of you presented What is what is that and there's a few districts that are beginning to get insight into Into what is that added value? My work in Chicago we had a data we had electronic attendance and grading system that allowed us to To look into certain data points that researchers are from around the country seem to be indicating were critical Intervention points So ninth grade on track, which I think Northside presented became really really important to us because There was direct correlation between force failure first semester freshman year of high school and eventual high school graduation, so if we know that and Again, we have electronic grading system. I had 110,000 kids across 120 high schools So the only way to do this literally overnight producing color-coded charts by course Three weeks into the fall semester Back to the principal Over the weekend so that Monday morning these are on his or her desk Knowing exactly which students and what and the number of students who are already failing So if you know that if that student continues and is already failing Continues a light and doesn't recover Why why do we keep down that path? If we have information that says let's intervene now And maybe we start that course over maybe we double up on the course Maybe we bring in you know tutors from the local university or whatever the dynamic resources available are so if that becomes one of This is one of Horace points to that I really like was he was like we have to and it's part of what collective impact about right it's around It's around dissolving these data points down to key ones Where you're because there's only so much time and energy any of you have and the teachers and principals under your Direction have to impact any of us So why don't we if high school graduation is one of those key metrics and we know ninth grade success first semester is critical if we know through Bob Balfance's research at Johns Hopkins that The ABC's attendance behavior and core academics in middle grades is directly related to high school graduation Then why don't we organize internally our resources? but also externally our resources and I'd love to hear some of you are mild the city year since the city years been kind of Saying that they're willing as I understand it to hold themselves accountable To you school leaders for impacting in those middle grades attendance behavior and academics Some of you heard me share the example of big brothers big sisters in st. Louis They've they've gone to like seven-rate school superintendents and said the same thing But what it does for those organizations is If off it presents an opportunity because they're not experts in middle grades math They're not experts in middle grades reading they need your assistance to bring in your best math and English Instructors or writing instructors to train their volunteers So that you've got an extra resource That's assisting the teachers But if you've got a way to measure the kids who have a big brother big sister that calculate the added value of Keeping kids or getting kids back on track and reading and math or whatever. I'm just using those as examples That's a really powerful coalition and you're seeing more and more and more of this happening so that it becomes this Community both internally within the district But also externally with the broader community. Let me use fast food By the way, congratulations on a 40% increase in one year that's unbelievable I Remember Roxanne saying to me we're gonna assign every senior to an adult both in either in the building or in the community, right? About a year ago, you know And it's like wow, I don't know any district in the country that's had that that percentage increase in one year But it's taking that one data point saying we're gonna make this critical now I bet one of the things you did or Which is just even strengthen it further is wouldn't be nice to be able to push back to the AP director the CT director the avid director How their students are doing on passive completion on a regular base Meaning weekly so that's not just the school counselor's responsibility to move that particular data point But it's like I've got a team of people internally and then I've got a people a group of people externally You know from the business community from the faith-based community or whatever your Strength of your resources are to actually reinforce what's happening inside the school so that they become our backup partners And one of the things I love about collective impact is that you which doesn't get talked a lot about when I Want to hear talked about was this kind of reinforcing activities by multiple agents multiple strategies on on those data points And it's really really powerful because it's actually somewhat freeing I would That's all here your story From a counter standpoint to know that you're kind of in this role of directing this Right, you don't have to sit with 127 kids and help them fill out their fast reform Which is usually the first reaction a school counselor has a lot of these you know I don't have the time when I'm into the time We're not asking you we're asking you to to bet on putting together a strategy that if you set it up this year Next year, it's going to be 80% easier to implement one because you've got success that you've achieved that can be celebrated by everybody who helped achieve that success and Somebody had to drive that Am I am I part of my bias around school counseling is that there's many of these college and career data points Are there for the taking? They're there fast was there for the taking if I'm a school principal and I decide that fast is going to be one of my key metrics to I'm not going to do that probably I'll support it But I'm going to probably turn to my school counseling team and say hey I'm going to support you, but I need you to drive this well Who else are they going to talk or basically turn to it for the most part? So anyway I had a time. I haven't gotten the five minute flash here yet Designing to me a Little bit of time. All right so So Let me just end with this point Going back to resources that you guys have been able to kind of pull together and There's a common theme and common message many times. It's not a matter of getting more of those resources It's using the resources that are right there in front of you in the most effective way And it might be actually cutting back on some of those because you can't manage them effectively enough And I say this from my own experience And I and I say it in that in this going back to this college board survey that they did of counselors administrators One of the one of the data points that came out of it was We don't know how to do this community outreach It's not that we aren't willing to do it. We just Haven't done it's not part of our DNA. We haven't been trained to do it and And so I think Some of us who have been doing organizing type work if you will for part of our careers. This is just like common sense, right or just kind of comes with oh, this is what you do You pick up the phone and you you know you make your plea or whatever but I Know when I started doing fundraising when I ran nonprofit agencies I was scared as stiff to pick up the phone and talk to a funder in terms of trying to sell what I believed in because I just didn't know That community I didn't have any knowledge of them. I didn't know how they thought I didn't know how they They you know considered their their decisions and the such and so it was scary it was really scary and I think a lot of us in In the education whether you're an administrator or your own accounting side can be a little intimidating and so how do we kind of ease that We'll go back to the St. Louis convening because one of the St. Louis funders who put that together realized That this was an issue for these seven school superintendents They brought together and for their teams and so the last two hours of the convening They brought in 30 community leaders who each of those districts could have taken time to Some outreach probably with a lot of trembling and fear But they delivered these people right to the district leadership team and after they did their planning They had an opportunity to meet each of these 30 people and to make their case in terms of we need your help because we wanted We decided that where you're going to expand AP or we're going to take more field trips With our students and we need money for buses or we need you know help with fast We're gonna focus in on that and it was this so I'm anxious to hear maybe Jacob you've got some feedback I haven't done it back yet in terms of just has that what has that led to right so this kind of bridging of different communities Assuming that people know what to do with resources but the reality is that they might just need a little mentoring and coaching and Self-assurance building in order to make that connection and make and take it to their advantage so I'll leave with that and Do we have time for questions or five minutes? Then you're gonna have to work with your team And any questions Let me just say it on this collective impact The one at the conference one of the topics that got up that was brought up was was protecting the integrity of the model and part of this Beginning to break down because it's easy to kind of say. Oh, yeah, we're committed to data We're committed to the transparency of data, but all of us know that That can be really steered Some of you heard my story about going into Arnie with our first data National Student Clearinghouse data, and it was just me and him and the head of strategic planning Only the three of us and the person who ran the data was the fourth person who knew what the report said But Arnie had to make a really brave decision because our data was only 42 and a half percent of graduates went on to These are the graduates went on half the kids at that time were dropping out went on to post secondary We knew if we released it it would be on the front page of the Tribune the next morning And probably not a very complimentary way But he deliberated and made an instant decision to release the data Knowing we would take a huge hit the next morning Which ended up being a hundred stick figures on the front page of the Tribune with six of them colored in Basically saying to Chicago's taxpayers. Hey, guess what your investment of ten thousand dollars a year per student for 12 years is yielding you six colloquial but So that was our truth, right? What I've come to call our ruthlessly honest truth It wasn't sugar-coated anyway, that was it but behind that Arnie had the confidence in his team that we would impact that number and that number for eight years in a row has steadily gone up Leading to four thousand more kids from last year's class in college and from seven years ago using NSC data With the same number of high school graduates 47% increase in the number of Students going on But so these are not necessarily easy things to do But courageous leadership driving it when you have the support of the mayor and others in your broader community Couldn't be more significant and the opportunity couldn't be greater for our young people than it is today Three million jobs available today Your 2020 goal is tied to your This year's fifth grade So do you have the systems in place with your ten-year-old? for the next eight years to achieve that outcome that you want to achieve You have to build the systems to make that happen and If I've ever seen collaboration and the opportunity for deepening collaboration anywhere in the country It's here. So I look forward to being with you for the next day and a half You've looked at your schedules, you know that the The tomorrow this convening will Adjourn tomorrow with a press conference for the mayor and and everybody's signing on to this collective impact And I think you were talking about H.E.B. and business principles if we use marketing principles How long how many times have you heard the word collective impact this morning? You know, it's like we're just gonna keep dropping it out there on you. I started making a little Noodle, you know what those wordles are. This is a nodal You just kind of keep making notes and a couple of things that have kept coming up over and over Our our collective impact and also FAFSA and financial aid and again congratulations to all y'all that are working on that on the FAFSA initiative Down the road a couple of months from now. We're also going to bring together a Convenient of the colleges so they can also sit and Discuss what kind of strategies they can do to to be better at retaining a lot of the students because we know that There is definitely this pipeline right that we want to create this systemic, you know K through or pre-k through through 20 or through 16 depending on where you're sitting at that So we're not oblivious to that. We know that that's important and that's coming So that will and then perhaps from there will bring all y'all together And so just real quick before we turn it over to Alma is I wanted to say that For those of us that have been in higher education and community outreach for say, I don't know the last 20 years You know that there's always these shifts, right? There's there used to be a real focus on pre-college characteristics of our students You know what what were they coming in with and kind of putting the responsibility on you know Things that they brought in pre-college or pre-education into our school systems and how we worked with them from there Then about 10 years ago 12 years ago that shifted to kind of institutional characteristics Institution started to become a little bit more aware of okay Well, what do we do as an institution that then helps these students get through college? And now we're kind of going through this other shift And and some of us have been doing this a long time in different ways And now it's kind of like this collective impact this kind of kind of community, right? How do how does everybody kind of work together and for those of you that have been in grassroots for years? You probably think well, this is nothing you I Would beg to differ slightly in the in the way that it's different in that we are using data To drive a lot of what we're doing and the data doesn't only hold you and again applaud you at school districts because this is You know these are your your statistics, and it's so easy to be to take hits on this stuff but the data not only holds you accountable as as Greg was saying but the data also holds us Accountable the community-based organizations we get funded, too And we're asked to show our funders Hey, this is what we're doing with the money you've invested in us to assist these school districts And so we want to be better too and helping you and so just again to reiterate this idea of collective impact And about all of us being able to go back to all of those that the whole the purse strings and saying hey This is what we're doing as a community to work together So they were all accountable and so what Lumina has done with this idea of collective impact in terms of funding is said Not asked us to answer the question of how are we doing or how are we achieving alone? But they've really asked us how are you achieving together as a community? And that's really what what this diploma initiative is all about So we'll continue to reiterate that as much as I can so that when you leave here And you get a phone call from me or an email down the road You'll be able to you'll be willing to have lunch with me or coffee or so We ready to turn over all right, so now turn over


Good morning everyone and welcome to Open Belgium. I want to quickly thank our three main sponsors, Mono Design, Microsoft, and Agentschab, Binaland Spistur for making this possible. Now, without further ado, I want to give the floor to Raph. Thank you for the introduction, Astrid. Good morning and all of you are welcome in our session about personal data governance, which of course is crucial in the context of a fair data economy. I'm Raph Berlen working at the Digital Flanders Agency. I'm also a member of the Board of Open Knowledge Belgium. Now, I would like to introduce you to Harry van der Velden. Harry is a stunning visual harvester who will capture our talks and visualize the core ideas about personal data governance on the whiteboard, which Christophe will share via the chat. Also, I would like to introduce Christophe Kopp. Christophe has a background in neuro-behavioral sciences, statistics, and data science. Actually, he was the founder and curator of Tannex Flanders co-founded by the Belgian Pirate Party. Since January this year, he actually joined Gronos to set up a company around solid consulting. To accelerate this paradigm about putting citizens of their data and making this paradigm shift a reality. Christophe, the floor is yours. Hello. Good morning, everybody, and thank you Raph for introducing me. I will briefly give the introduction of today on what's on the agenda and what we're going to talk about, and then I'll hand over the floor back to Raph later. I will now share my screen and I hope everything works well. Voila. Just a second. Okay. Voila. So today is actually the topic is on towards data trust, and this is the agenda, but we will see this later as well. So I'll start the presentation now. First, we need to know indeed what we are talking about. So I will explain the broad scope of what the implications are and why we are talking about person-centric ecosystem and how to get citizens in control of their data. Then we will zoom in on this possible new ecosystem. Within that ecosystem, we will talk today about the data cooperative or the data trust within the ecosystem. For that data trust, we will discuss four major let's say aspects or key aspects. We will talk about the business, the legal, the technological, and the organizational aspects that are important to start such a cooperative. During my presentation, you will find some working definitions and they are indicated by the orange diamond. The broad scope. So the internet is quite an unregulated space. Well, at least what WWW and the internet are. That means that we don't have an actual governance layer. Currently, we are more in a platform model where big companies, the GAFAM actually has most access to our data. Where we think that just like the MyData model, a user-centric version of internet is needed and this is what we want to achieve. Roughly speaking, there are three, well, two existing paradigms and we want to introduce a possible third one. So the first paradigm is that, what I call the American paradigm, where big corporations have control over personal data and much other data as well. The second paradigm, we should call it the Chinese model where data is mostly in control by the government. Then there might be a third model for which there is already some legislation in Europe, where we think, okay, a user-centric model of data would be appropriate and it is this paradigm where we'll be thinking in today. Within this paradigm, there is a whole possible ecosystem. One, the persons, of course, who have the data, have access to their data and can give access to other people and other companies. There will be applications which show the visualizations and the insights coming from that data. There are companies using that data as well. They can reprocess it and get insights for themselves. Of course, there will be regulations on the data traffic regulation, the data request rules and actions against violations of data traffic done by governments. There will be a need for pod providers where the data is stored and handled carefully and securely. And then of course, there will be companies that are app developers. There might still also appear unknown roles and new players to this emerging field as this paradigm takes shape. Today, we focus on the data intermediaries and more specifically, the data intermediaries organized by people and for people, the data trust or data cooperative. A data cooperative system within the ecosystem. So what should we think about? How can we make an organization for the people, buy people who unite and share their data amongst themselves so that it can be process and valuable insights can be shared? And then this indeed holds four different aspects, business-wise, legal, technological and organizational. On the business side, we have the data trust. The data trust is a group or entity that indeed takes a stewarding of the data. Why? Because of course, you just like, you don't like to click away cookies or to fill out all the access sharing requests that you get when you visit the website. You don't want to have that as a burden during your day. So you want to delegate it to a company or an organization and why not a corporate. As they act as a data fiduciary, that means that as an organization, you determine the purpose and means of processing of that personal data and sharing. Some roles that the business will probably need to take and which can be discussed today is indeed data hosting, data processing, sharing, gathering and that in a data collaborative as in data intermediary. There are of course already people and organizations like mydata.org who have taught about different data stewardship models. So it is indeed also part of the exercise today to think which data stewardship model do we opt or which do we think is best fitted for a collective of people who bring their data together. Legal aspects, while the data governance act while not in effect already, it is under construction. And indeed they provide a legislation for this data sharing intermediaries to take place. So which aspects should we take into account from that side? And finally, these which legal entity do we need to found or construct? These are just the Belgian ones that we can get that we can use to have a legal entity, but of course there is always the option to choose for others as well. Some technical aspects as people will be sharing data amongst themselves and aggregate data. That means that there will be at least a temporary space where this data gets stored and processed so that the insights can be shared or sold or in other ways used by our data trust. So the question is how should we organize this to avoid again centralization that all the data gets stored together by the corporation or by the organization that we found, but still that it is possible that we have all this data processing going on. On a technical level as well, so there will be roughly two types of data that will be resulting from the data processing. First of course is the general insights that come on a population level where you aggregate information and get real insights on a group level or on a let's say consumer group level that then can be either kept as IP or can be sold or marketed. On the other side you have derived personal information. For example, from your clicking behavior you might have an estimation of your personality profile which of course need to be stored again on your own data space. Another thing to consider is the consent profiles. As some data you wish to share freely amongst everybody whilst other are highly confidential and probably need more restrictions and access management. Given that we have an organization that wants to be collaborative and cooperative the organization structure should be flat and aspects of consensus decision making include participation, egalitarianism, inclusion, collaboration and cooperation. Then of course we should also ask the question what are the roles of the members who wish to participate in this cooperative and what do they want to contribute, need to contribute, should contribute and what could they get back in return as insights, as gain benefits, would it be monetary, would it be services or would it be just let's say basic insights. So these are, this is for setting the stage of today. I hope this is a little bit clear and I will now give back the words to Raph. Thank you Christoph for this introduction and giving us an insight in the broader domain of personal data governance. Now I would like to introduce our next speaker, Vivi. Vivi is a data policy fellow at the World Economic Forum. Also she's a special advisor in data policy at the city of Helsinki. Researcher at University of Helsinki and Alta University and also senior advisor at MyData Global. Vivi, thank you for joining us and we're looking forward to your insights about personal data governance. The floor is yours. Thank you so much Raph for the introduction. I indeed wear many, many hats and I am here mainly with my MyData hat on and I'm going to talk to you a little bit about the Data Governance Act which is currently being prepared in the European Union. I had the pleasure yesterday of being heard by the ITRA Committee of the European Parliament on the Data Governance Act so I'm going to share some of the thoughts with you that I also shared with the members of the Parliament and the ITRA Committee yesterday. So let me just pull up my screen and share that. Okay, so that's me, hi. So here with my MyData Global hat on, senior advisor, I've been around MyData for several years with different roles but at the moment I'm providing advice mainly on kind of global and European and also finish level policy as well as supporting the thought leadership development at MyData Global. So today I want to share a couple of thoughts about the EU Data Governance Act and MyData operators as entities which are being governed by or will be governed by this act. So first I'll just say a couple of general words about the Data Governance Act or the DGA then about MyData and MyData operators then how these two connect as data sharing service providers in the DGA and finally some agenda points that MyData has for improving the DGA as it becomes law. So the Data Governance Act was announced in the European Strategy for Data in February last year as a legislative framework for the governance of government European data spaces. It was proposed by the commission in November and is currently being considered by the European Parliament and the European Council. And there are actually two versions that I've seen at the moment. So there's the original proposal by the commission and a version with proposed amendments or first version with proposed amendments by the council. So I might refer to one or the other as I go along here. So there are also very similar or similar sounding things happening in Europe. So I just wanted to make sure that we're talking about the same thing. So the Data Governance Act is one thing but it is not the Digital Services Act which regulates online intermediary services in order to counter illegal goods services or content online. There's also the Digital Markets Act which regulates large online platforms as gatekeepers. And also in the data strategy of last year there was the announcement of the Data Act 2021 but that's something whose content we don't yet know. But the Data Governance Act is something other than these and I'll briefly describe what it contains in just a little bit. So just to make sure everyone is aware of what MyData is all about as well I wanted to show this slide. So the MyData mission is for a fair, sustainable and prosperous digital society through a human-centric approach to personal data. And you can see the MyData logo there in the middle with the person at the center in different sectors in which data about us gets amassed every day. So this Digital Society that MyData works towards is one where people get value from their data and set the agenda on how it's used. And for organizations and companies the ethical use of data is always the most attractive option. So this is what we're for. MyData Global as an organization is an international non-profit. We're headquartered in Finland founded a little over two years ago. Membership includes individual people as well as organizations from different sectors of society and from over 50 countries. MyData Global also has, I think it's exactly 30 local hubs on six continents as well as international groups that are formed around specific themes such as MyData operators that I'll be touching on next. So MyData operators are one way to think about data governance and providing infrastructure for data ecosystems. So MyData operators are the kind of entities that connect the person with the ecosystem of data where data sources and data using services access and use and enrich and in general process the data about this person. So it's pretty clear that in a system where one would have to control one's relationship to every single data source or data using service my entire life would be all about managing those relationships but MyData operators are data intermediaries that can help manage that and help people exercise meaningful control over the data about them. MyData operators are the kinds of things that the Data Governance Act seeks to regulate as data intermediaries or as they're currently their phrased data sharing service providers. We work with dozens of organizations who've gone through a process and been awarded the MyData operator 2020 award. So these are real companies offering real services right now around the world and many of them also in Europe. So these are the kinds of things and I'm realizing that I'm running a little bit long here. So these are the kinds of things that MyData operators can do not all of them do all of these things but all of them do some of these things but I won't go through them in detail. So I promised to say a little bit about the DGA and its contents. So it's basically three different things. The beef of the legislation is really in chapters two, three and four and our focus as MyData Global is on chapter three requirements applicable to data sharing services. So these the data sharing service providers have been defined in this council amended version as service providers which through the provision of technical, legal and other services establish relationships between an undetermined number of data holders and data users for the exchange pooling or trade of data. And they in the again I'll quote from the amended council version they're also described as making available the technical or other means to enable the exercise of the rights provided for in the GDPR. So data cooperatives on the other hand are defined as something distinct from these data sharing service providers that I just described. So data cooperatives are organizations that support data subjects or one person companies who are members and who confer the power to the cooperative to negotiate terms and conditions for data processing before they consent. So these are the two different kinds of entities that are envisioned in the DGA. And I'll really quickly go through some of the things that we at my data global have noticed that would make this act even better. So these are the inclusion of rights holders in the definitions of a clear and wide scope of application of this act and some focused requirements like interoperability for data intermediaries. Sorry. So at the moment only data holders and data users and these data intermediaries are defined in the act and as my data we find it incredibly important for harmonization with the GDPR that the rights holders the people themselves are included. The clear and wide scope should be pretty kind of it's almost obvious to say that the scope should be very, very clear and it should be set out in the articles and the point about the wide scope is to really make sure that this act captures all actual relevant and foreseeable future data sharing activities that currently exist in the market like the ones that we work with at my data global. And third the focus requirements such as interoperability for these data intermediaries can serve the purpose of keeping the playing field level for all kinds of actors so we don't end up with gatekeepers if we have functional interoperability requirements and this also provides for consumer choice. So I'll conclude there. These are the recommendations that my data global has. We've gone through the act in quite a lot of detail and there's much more I could say about it. But these are the key things that we feel could make the act even better than it currently is. So I'll stop there. Thank you very much. So thank you Vivi for the insight as well as the recommendations which will be also discussed during our panel discussion. I'm very curious for what Harry did with our talks and how he captured them on the whiteboard. Christoph currently we quickly zoom in on the on Harry's whiteboard. Just a second. I'll first try and present a little second. Sorry Isabel. So let me share what Harry is currently doing. Voila. If I'm correct, it's also in the chat. You can see the link in the chat and follow it during the talks. So currently Harry is drawing and you see it appear on the screen and we have our nice first visualization of what I said during the introduction and you can see as it appears what Vivi told about the Data Governments Act. Wow, look stunning. Now we will jump to our next speaker, Isabel De Sieger. Isabel is a medical doctor as well as a computer scientist with over 25 years of experience in healthcare IT including data standards big data and digital health. Isabel is an active member of my data and co-leading my data for epidemics as well as she's working on everything that's concerned with individual data profiles within the context of health. Isabel, great that you could join us. We are looking forward to your presentation and insights and the floor is yours. Thank you Rafa and thank you for inviting me to this panel. I think it's great to see progress moving on something which I personally believe and I think many of us believe it's extremely important which is giving more power to the individual and what I want to do today is to come in some concrete use case. I think we've been discussing in the previous presentation of the different aspects and Vivi went into the regulation. What would that mean from a practical perspective in the situation which is very close to all of us which is pandemics. What I really want to go to discuss today is how we can come with problem centric solutions that are powered by individual centric data intermediary and I want to take that in the case specifically of responsible movement during the pandemics and that's the work that we've been doing in the context of one of my data a thematic group which is my data for pandemics. So pandemics come and go. Experts expect more, more contagious and more lethal outbreaks in the year to come. So guys we are not at the end of this to have scalable solution to manage those outbreaks. More specifically in the context of this presentation I'm going to talk about the problem of responsible movement. What we want to do is to maximise responsible freedom of movement during pandemics or pandemics before there is testing and vaccination while ensuring human rights are respected. Outside of break we have normal freedom of movement. During an outbreak as you know we've been completely locked on what we want to do is responsible movement and those one would actually be the rules around that would be scaled on when the pandemics goes but what is very important is that we can scale it up when there is a new outbreak. No responsible movement requires data and a lot of data and certainly personal data. During the COVID outbreak there's been many breaches around data privacy. In April and March 2020 journalists identified 34 countries with data privacy breach and in some case very heavy. By the way in Belgium we are absolutely not better on 12th of this year our government issue a low where it basically can complete breach of data privacy even in breach of what the WHO recommend. By low in the monitor Belgium the government asked the possibility to combine identification residency employment contact and travel data in the context of COVID without individual consent. By the way COVID is expected to become an pandemic and therefore that low will remain applicable for a long long time. And I don't know how you feel about it but I personally do not feel comfortable at all about that. No let's dig down about the issue about data and managing data in the context of pandemics. Today and I think you mentioned that Christoph we are mostly able to work with population data and therefore there is a lack of integration on different data sources at individual level and we cannot really get good actionable insight because we cannot segment at the individual level. And obviously working with population data it's a balance between respect of human rights and a need to have access to the right data. Those issues derive from the lack of reliable infrastructure for sharing personal data and the lack of trust in institution holding those personal data. So we need to find out a solution. Before looking at solution let's maybe again a little bit more in the problem. We have problem centric approach to data today we look at counter tracing then we look at travel then we look at vaccination we all look at those things in silo and we collect data in silo. Those data need to actually be integrated at population level if we want to look at population data and if we want to integrate them they are still anonymized but we have integrated data at population level and we can put in the data comments a million of data from medical records and two two million of location and at 100,000 about employment. So we don't really compare Apple and Apple and it's very high quality but that's what today the authority have got for reporting. We as citizens are completely forgotten and very much frustrated as I'm sure we all are in the context of the conference as we have today. So summary what we have today, multiple silo data, lack of interoperability limited quality by bringing those data together no information at the citizen level or we need to infringe on data privacy. What is the suggestion that we have in my data by having that individual approach to data thanks to data intermediaries or my data operator or data cooperative, whatever we call it and let's, I will call it in the remainder of this call, a data intermediary. Isabel, your slides are not following. They are not. Are you an individual centric approach to data here? Or not? Which slide do you see? Okay. That's just my problem. Sorry. So in the individual centric approach of my data then we bring different data sources through a data intermediary with the permission of the individual into an individual problem oriented data profile for pandemics it will be the data we need for pandemics. That can, sorry, that can actually then be put together in a population data comments and here we compare Apple and Apple and it would be fast to minimize because we need some data at the beginning certainly for a month or two but there is no need to have them for all the time asked to the government in Belgium will do. You can after a certain period of time let's say two months put that in data comments and that is going to remain long-term. With this authority can have report of higher quality because the data of our quality and they could also have access for interim period to subsidize data but mostly the individual is also going to have something out of it through different score in a digital wallet and I'll come back to what would be that score in a minute. Now in this which is approach we can derive integrated problem oriented individual data profile. Individuals are in control and can share their data interest and they incentivize to share the data to increase their freedom of movement as I will show in a minute. Authorities have no need to do data privacy bridges as we do in Belgium. They have access to much high quality data and therefore they can take adaptive measure. Now let's take down in the minute in that score what is the miracle here? If you actually have access to individual data with the permission of the individual you can actually go into segmentation and that would support granular lockdown before we even have tested or vaccine. Vaccine takes 12 to 18 months so we want to have something before that and that's an example of what you could do if you have those individual data profile you can actually define rules at the government level when you look at population level you know red, orange, green zone or in addition to that you have area risk level again red, orange, green and then you can link that with patient data on the level of contagion or health and based on those different elements of information you can have different types of rules either if it's kind of the red one you need to stay home if it's dark orange you can move on if it's critical and so on and so forth so you can define different level of movement you can have based on your profile and your risk and in that case most of the people certainly in areas like us would be more in the light green and dark green that in the orange so we would have much much more freedom of movement. How will that practice really happen? Because it's all nice and beautiful but where data intermediaries are so important you certainly have heard about what is happening around the digital green path or the immunization path or vaccination path fundamentally the idea is to bring together identity, lab test or vaccination test so that information somewhere and then all of that with the permission of the individual to derive the credential that you put in your digital wallet and then you can go and travel that would be a basic infrastructure that we would need for the digital green path there are other technology but data intermediary is definitely one outside of pandemics then you can actually also through data intermediary and other services and manage your medical record, employment information store that in personal data store like solid or older but solid is definitely an important one comes the pandemic you can add new applications like contact tracing like self-assessment and start that information again in your personal data store with the permission of the individual you can derive that individual pandemic data profile I was mentioning before and with this segmentation call I'll show you you can actually come with difference call which you can use for local transportation to go to the football to go to theater to go to a restaurant if you can actually show that you have no risk and that can also the information can also then be used in those population data common for reporting so you can see with data intermediary we can put in place solution that are much much more correct for individual and we really believe that there is no need to trade data privacy for the common goods as we are doing currently in Belgium if citizens are in power they can act responsibly and they can share their data in trust with authority to jointly work on the common goods and nothing is from by data it's absolutely critical and with that I really want to take times the team which we've been who's been working with it in the context of the tenacity group so Christoph and Ralph back to you Isabel thank you for this eloquent presentation about the topic that affects us all now I would like to jump to the panel so during the panel Matthias will be the man on the clock Matthias van Komperlo is a senior researcher at the research group for media innovation and communication technologies at Gantt University and IMEX since 2013 and he's involved in the Flemish solid ecosystem but before we dive into the panel our colleagues ask me to give a brief overview of what's happening within Belgium and also about the contents of the Flemish region Ralph but can you keep the time into account we are running I see that we are running yes I'm looking yes we are running six minutes behind scheme so I will limit this little bridge to two minutes so we'll know that Christoph can you share the slides to support this small interludium so thank you Christoph so we all know that in September President van der Leiden stated that the State of the Union explained the importance of putting users in control of their personal data also things about personal data vaults were in the Flemish coalition agreement and also the President Jan Jan Bon emphasised on putting citizens in control again in the September declaration I think since late 2018 the Flemish government started experimenting with solid so with a personal data vault you can call it an online memory stick for personal data and they did it in the context of the Flemish citizen profile where citizens can get access to the government data and meanwhile there's also a pilot which runs into a sandbox built on top of the citizens profile which allowed to share data from the public sector so the data that the government owns about it put citizens in control to reuse it within other context including the private context. The next step of the Flemish government did was to start up an ecosystem with public and private partners involved not limited to Flanders where they share the different use cases and we have many of them both from public and private sector within the context of health gov tech the context of mobility as well as media and culture and then we see that the ecosystem evolves and they're drawing a roadmap together so we see many many initiatives but now let's jump to the panel discussion so we have a stunning panel I would like to welcome professor Ruben Ferdburg professor of decentralized web technology at the internet technology and data science lab of Ghent University together with Sir Tim Berners-Lee Ruben is the driving force in the solid ecosystem that gives you back control and choice both online and offline also I would like to introduce Paul Teyskens Paul is a mass ecosystem is active in the mass ecosystem development at the department of mobility and open body he's also a digital ecosystem development architecture working on digital transformation digital marketing, digital analytics big data and involved in the my data community we ask him because he sticks out his entrepreneurial drive to make things happen in a collaborative way also I would like to welcome multi buyer Katzenberger he's a policy officer European Commission after Malta have worked at the Academy of European Law he joined the European Commission DG Connect he's working on policy related to data driven innovation including open data policy and aspects of data protection and currently he's involved in the free flow of data initiative now the focus of our debate is how to involve citizens because there is a regulation, Flemish government is investing companies and startups are putting a lot of effort in setting up this ecosystem the debate will be moderated by Kristoff and myself and Matthias will do the wrap up I would like to welcome the panel and let's kick off the debate with a first question related to the data trust and data cooperative now Sharon private data is about trust as we heard from the previous speakers now who do we trust and who do we confide not and how are we sure that our data and our trust will be not abused and to put it differently how does the data trust manage conflicts of interest or income and how does this relate to the current jurisdiction so to put it short how do we keep on trusting the trust and I would like to kick off the debate with some reflections of Vivi. Thank you so much I loved the question of trust it's definitely one of those buzzwords almost that you hear in conversations around personal data I wanted to share a thought that I found very helpful around trust working since I work in a very global context I've proudly stolen this from a colleague so not original to me I promise but basically the idea is around trust traditions and how very different communities different people within those communities have different kinds of criteria for what and whom they trust so my slightly counterintuitive answer to how do we trust is actually interoperability interoperability means that we have the choice to trust the kind of actor that we feel comfortable with I trust my bank to provide my login credentials other countries prefer to use their telcos their governments or some sort of community managed systems and I think that's a good thing plurality is a good thing and the fact that these different systems could work together through interoperability is actually what enables these different kinds of trust to flourish when it comes to personal data so there's my thought there thank you Vivi yes interoperability is indeed very crucial and I'm curious about the insight about this topic from Malta yes good morning to all and thank you for having me on this panel I'm following my data since I read the paper I think in 2015 and have seen the organization grow and happy to see some known faces here in the call I should also say that well probably one of the drivers to get the my data approach into the data governance act which is the legislative proposal that Vivi so perfectly presented early on which really offloads a bit of task of here and I'm so to say also my data ambassador within the organization and something which is not an easy task for many people out there this topic is still quite futuristic and I think events like these help to understand as the benefits and I was particularly also intrigued by Isabelle's presentations on this one the inspiration in article 9 and 11 of the proposal is actually to drive trust in novel data intermediaries it has been modeled around some of the known business and architectural models that we knew and it certainly goes by a certain division of labor or if you want separation of functions so that we we see if you take another the solid initiative as one model that the pods are the infrastructure and services should wrap around this infrastructure and there's other startups in Europe that have been trying to to build this now for some years with the evident problem of rolling it out to a mass market in the absence of a big marketing budget or a big partner in this and that's maybe also one of the things we can look at here in this panel but the trust in the in the regulation as we have designed it should come mainly from the separation of functions and roles that you are not able to well combine services on top of the data directly with the provision of the of the infrastructure and this is a message I would say also to big tech companies who love vertical integration and built really big empires around integrating everything into a very convenient ecosystem and it basically says if we if we mean human centricity and control we need to bring out these functions as we also have to bring out identity out of ecosystems and make them self-standing services in the data economy and then the services that build on identification and on personal data wallets can come on top what we now the second distinction I think that we make is between these individualistic type of approaches and the community based approaches that we we heard from Christoph in the beginning the cooperatives and here I think this if the parties are futuristic the cooperatives are even more futuristic for many decision makers and that's a problem also when you're going to discuss legislation but we certainly understand that for many many context community decisions are much more appropriate on data so we have basically have a place in the data governance act for a level playing field regulation on cooperatives but knowing also that a lot of things have to be worked out how are they established what's the internal governments and certainly and that's my last point what can the cooperative do on behalf of the individual and what rights remain your individual rights and that's that's I think there's still a frontier to decide what rights I can exercise even if the majority in the cooperative decides to do a can I still have a right to say no I don't follow the majority vote here and I can still do whatever I wanted on an interval to data question these are maybe the broad level question that we still need to figure out and really last point also invitation to and colleagues at the university funders to influence the Belgian position on the politics because this is the regulation is moving really now and we certainly welcome the also the idea to work on interoperability as a criterion as VV said and we also here we need maybe a member state or a member of parliament to bring this to the process the file has basically lost our control we're accompanying the VGA file in the legislative process but we we need initiatives from from the countries to bring any modification to the table and I think proactive work is needed because this fast this file really moves along very fast and we should have the right regulation for my data thanks a lot thank you Malta and actually mentioning that indeed that the cooperative that is still more futuristic than the idea of personal data control and I would like to direct my next question to Isabel if we start now today finding such a cooperative which should be the first let's say baby steps we should take a logical first steps because given that you already have experience with building this COVID applied mechanism if you want to put it a bit broader or put it in operation which are the first steps you're still muted Isabel thanks thank you Christoph and just to put it straight it's not yet in place I think we're really trying to put all those different steps to make sure it is going to happen in working on the next pandemic no I think the first step for me is education frankly the problem is not so much about available technology yes solid is not yet completely there yes they time to me you are not completely there my data operator but they are still there's quite a lot of component available the problem is lack of understanding what I explained to you I don't think it's clear for many people certain decision maker because you need a certain amount of data literacy and I always love Ruben when you make your presentation as well because it is so clear that we need to do things differently with the data and that needs to be more decision maker will and I'm not looking to say authorities it's everybody who has to take the decision so the first thing is education on what can be done differently with the data we have today it goes that it's what going to drive I think the money is simply to actually do this the second thing I believe we need to do is really to actually show it so it can work and how it can work and develop pilots and then obviously for me the third point is further supporting what we are doing in my data with the my data operator and make sure it is happening and by the way it is happening if you look at the my data operator it's not that much futuristic anymore yes it's not perfect but there are solutions that are already in place and pod is pushing very much on mobility and pushing on pandemics we have to keep all of people believing it and pushing and Ruben is pushing authority let's keep doing it and show it can be done it's more a will than the technology thank you thank you Isabel and yes we can so I was wondering and also when Christoph was asking his question what is the biggest opportunity and Ruben what do you think is the biggest opportunity in this context and how can we evolve the different players in the ecosystem Ruben I think you're still on mute yep test one two yes well I think the biggest opportunity is in tackling use cases that have benefits on both sides and I think so far we have not been talking too much one sided about the problem like okay sure personal data shoot stars for individual I'm on board with that however we need use cases where companies today also have a problem and that's how it works because we shouldn't be too naive about any of this none of it will work if it's not a decent economic model behind all of this and the so as far as it comes to data organization a focus on the individual yes that makes a lot of sense but it comes to solutions we need to look at both sides and all sides of the story are not going to get anywhere so the opportunities to me are concrete use cases where we can make a difference and there's that there's plenty of them I mean just to start with one that we use every day for instance supermarkets right like it's it's very one side of the moment like my supermarket collects data about me and they use it well actually if I have the data of all the shopping I do only on offline and if I'm willing to share that with different parties there might be more in it for me for instance they win because they have more data that helps them to get insights and I win because they might give me better deals and it's these use cases these opportunities that excite me where there's a win for multiple parties on different sides thank you Ruben for this insight I also was wondering as Paul is an ecosystem expert what his thoughts are on this matter I agree fully with what Ruben says there's two sides that need to have benefits in this story as a digital transformation consultant and as we see on the internet focusing on the use of problems is always the highest pain points discovering in the customer journey the pain points of the individual is key to what we do but of course you need to recognize from the other side the pain points that you can solve and what business this generates for instance in Finland they implemented one of the first HR my data operator models and if they saved on a societal basis they saved a hundred million euros in optimizing the processes of finding workers for construction and finding IT specialists for Finland which has a shortage and of that kind of skilled workers so we have to look at it from a society you have to look at it from benefits that we can generate but still keep the focus as Isabel also said on the individual and the pain points and digital transformation is all about users and finding the business cases that evolve around that. Thank you both Kristof sometimes we hear something about monetization and data I'm sure you have a good question in my mind about this and actually I'm quite happy that Ruben already mentioned it that indeed it is both sides and finding the win and I already talked with one of the supermarkets and they were very eager to get more data they were not so eager to share their data but it's kind of that problem currently going on but also towards Paul and Ruben and maybe the others to have a coining in on that should we follow the money and should we indeed monetize a data trust that we organize as a common and if so what would be a viable business model for a data column and if not if you think it's only non-monetary gains why should we not follow the money in this sense maybe Paul first Yes this has been a big discussion and also in my data community about monetizing or not that is something we have very lengthy and it's still going on the discussion and personally I don't really believe that we have to monetize what we call currency or GDP value or any of that but we should look at the economic value of what we're doing here and in the economic value today all of us know that we have sustainable development goals and that the UN has brought forward and also in Europe we have a number of goals that we are aiming climate goals sustainable goals that all of our communities local and in Flanders are looking at and there I think we can connect to the societal and universal development goals that we all have and this is about poverty this is about energy and so from my data if you look at digital transformation from the user we have been looking at the average family spending on a yearly basis what does this go to this goes to energy for instance so if we can automate energy both as a service provider and as an individual this can save a lot of money and I think there we have to find some of the societal business cases there's been estimates by McKinsey and some of the other consultancies that estimate a 4% GDP business case for societal goals of automating low income energy providing automating that using data sharing of your local energy and focusing on the family budget and the big post in that family budget and that's where I believe that my data and personal data management we can be kind of the waste managers of eliminating waste in our society which is now still in manual people low income people who don't open up their letters don't pay utility this is waste that is now in the market that shouldn't be there and that's what I believe we should be aiming at so if I grasp it correctly it's like okay not necessarily following a profit model but following a gains model and a savings model for the benefit of society maybe if somebody else wants to chime in or has a different opinion on this Kristoff if I'm sorry go ahead Vivi okay Vivi maybe you first and then I'll give the work to Isabelle for a few minutes okay thanks yeah so like Paul mentioned this is a hot topic of conversation in the my data community and my data such doesn't have a position on this there are good arguments here and there I'd maybe want to put it into some context which I find helpful in thinking about this so if we talk about direct monetization of personal data that's basically the argument for that is to increase individuals participation in the market right they get monetary value from personal data they get a slice of the pie so to speak but the alternative where we think about people's participation and empowerment in kind of a broader sense than just the market is when we think about people as civic beings as citizens as holistic beings with other aspects that are important to them apart from the economic one then I think the monetization question kind of shrivels away and you end up putting fundamental human rights and exercise of those and empowerment through that at front and center and I find this kind of more holistic idea of participation in the democracies that we live in as well as the markets as well as other aspects a very compelling way to look at it so I find the kind of monetization question often narrows the focus too much into merely the economic sphere which is while important not the only sphere relevant okay thank you Fifi Isabel you wanted to chime in quick one being in healthcare data of huge value just the market is more than 3 billion and growing every year so I think there is value in data and they need to be in some shape or form transform in something valuable but I agree and I think somebody in the chat said is more than money I completely agree should not be money it should be valorization of type of reward and that's where we can find a new economy and again if you look at health if you share your data you could have a decreased insurance premium or you could have faster access to a clinical trial because you share your data and you can have a better treatment so I think this is towards that type of new economy and new type of services we need to look but to say no we want we don't want data monetization because it does not have a nice flavor I think it's just leaving the room for people other people to make money out of our data and I don't think that's acceptable okay thank you and maybe Rafa to go to the final question well I think this is a very interesting topic and I think I skipped the last question and I would like to hear multiple thoughts on this topic about monetization thanks a lot I fully subscribed to what has been said before it's about saving friction it's about use cases that give you value the one thing I wanted to chip in on this actually the function of the corporative approach because first for most I think the corporative should solve the problem of me not being alone with my data because my data may be also other people's data either indirectly or even directly so that's maybe the first reason to have a more collective governance around certain data assets but it begs the question if you form certain corporatives around the idea that they could influence the bargaining power of the individuals or even small single person or even micro companies within the corporatives like the good old credit unions or farming societies or even book clubs where you basically aggregate purchase power and get nicer books at a cheaper price it begs the question whether this could also kind of recalibrate the current imbalance in the bargaining power I'm not saying that people should have a direct monetary revenue but that's maybe one aspect where also the corporatives could become an interesting model I'm not saying it should be the first the main model I'm more thinking that it's the friction cost for individuals and organisations as Ruben said that we should bring down with these personal data infrastructure and maybe one interesting aspect that I want to explore next week with colleagues actually is at Irish Life Irish Life is obviously a life insurance and they want to roll out also some sort of infrastructure in Ireland because the onboarding process for a lot of companies is very costly it's very paper based and they seem to have an interest to also bring down onboarding costs for companies that's where you can have also a lot of wins in terms of digitisation and providing then the digital infrastructure for individuals Thank you Malte Ruben do you have any concluding talks as we came to the end of the debate on this topic Yeah I would say that multiple stakeholders need to be part of this this is to me the key if we want use cases to be successful we need to look at it from the multiple sites this is the key issue because data means something different to different parties that is very obvious and we need to get them aligned and ultimately what companies really want is not to just have our data they want to innovate they want to deliver good services and so on so I think the misconception today is that in order to do those things you need to start harvesting the data yourself but once companies realise actually I just need to use the data like I don't need any sort of possession over it basically that things can get rolling so my concluding remark here is that from the get go let's involve all of the stakeholders to see what will be it for you because this is a story where multiple parties will win I'm really convinced of that so let's involve them all from the start that's my main takeaway Thank you Ruben for these concluding thoughts I see it's 10 past 11 and I would like to give the floor to Matthias for a wrap up and I would like to thank the panel for the stunning insights I would like to ask Christophe whether we could share Harry's whiteboard because I'm curious on his, to see his artwork and I saw already saw many snapshots on Twitter so Matthias the floor is yours, Harry I'm looking forward to your whiteboard Wow Okay this looks very nice I want to come in to share my webcam but I have issues with that so I'm sorry I dressed with my best shirt today but it will be without a webcam Once again thank you for the panel for your input and for your presence here today and Harry I don't know if you want to speak for the rest of the audience or really our pictures speak for itself Harry you're still on mute I think Harry I think you're still on mute Okay this doesn't seem to work Harry but anyway yeah I would say let's focus on the picture while I'll just make a short wrap up of the debates so we started with the question of yeah there's a lot about trust and do we can we trust the trust as a citizen or from societal perspective and VVS came up with an idea of yeah we have to maybe put a lens on as a society from previous trust traditions and people use different criteria when they trust each other or other actors and interoperability is a solution and it means that we can have the choice to choose the actor we trust Malte also gave like another input and I think we should take that into account because it's open Belgium today the Flemish region here in Belgium is doing a great job we are a frontrunner in the world I think we can say that out loud but we also have to focus on the Belgium federal level as well because new regulations will work on that for example then yeah there was a question where do we start you know that we you want to take some steps and how can we do that first of all we need to educate ourselves make sure that people understand what we're talking about it's about data literacy we also need to have the skills for example to go there to get along with these huge amounts of data we have to show it how it can work so we have to showcase and we have to also support things like my data operators and so on then there was like okay we have the where do we start the next question was like okay what are the opportunities if we have to start then what is the thing we need to account and Ruben came up with it's not just as you call it in Dutch just a happy thought if you want to succeed we need also to focus and to accept that there's a need of a decent economical model and that's where we have to take that into account and that is where we came up with the last question and our main discussion was yeah should it be monetized how can we get along with that the real profits of companies or more like societal gains in terms of savings efficiency benefits it's still an open discussion we are still at the beginning of this general societal process and I also want to thank Franz who mentioned in the chat that we need also to focus on power relations and I think that's a very good insight because we are living today in a society so everything is combined with each other the idea of personal data is de facto actually a data exchange idea so we are dependent from each other so we also need to focus on that power relations if you want to succeed we also have to take that into account that we have a multi stakeholder environment where we are in the next words from the conclusions thank you Matias for the wrap up I would like to thank all speakers and panelists it was a stunning mix I would like to thank Isabel, Ruben, Vivi, Malte Matias, Christoph and Paul and also Harry for his artwork I don't know Christoph before we end this session have again a quick view on Harry's whiteboard yeah I'll immediately give the view and in the meanwhile I'll take the time to announce that if you want to continue thinking on this topic and forming this data collaborative and make this a reality then please reach out to many of us we are reachable on many online platforms and I'll share also at least my email and other of the organizers could do so so we can stay in touch and think about the next steps to make this for at least Europe a far reality coming closer to the nearer future thank you Christoph and also to end I would like to thank Open Knowledge Belgium for giving us this opportunity this platform to share this innovative thoughts and also many thanks to Astrid for supporting this session thank you all looking forward forward to see you in the near future if you want to welcome to