Welcome to another episode of Deconstructing Photography. Today, we're talking the art of wild art. So today, I thought we'd talk a little bit about local photojournalism. In other words, newspaper photography, news, sports. And you might be thinking, wild art photography, what's that? That was a term we used in the newsroom for a photo that was a feature photo, an image that was kind of like a standalone or filler. Maybe something that didn't go with any particular story. Or just kind of an interesting community photo. I'm not sure that's an official name. That's just what we've always called those kind of photos, wild art. We're not talking nature photography here, but it could be. What kind of photos would be wild art? What kind of subject matter? That's really pretty wide open. Anything that's an interesting photo. Somebody doing something interesting in the community. Something that depicts everyday life. The newspapers I worked for were either a city paper or a county wide paper. And it would just be images that kind of showed something special about the community or the area that the people lived in. It could be wildlife. This photograph of three raccoons in a tree was made in my backyard before going to work one morning. Or this image of an eagle coming in for landing. This was made in between assignments going from one assignment to another. I know our viewers really appreciated it when we took a wildlife photo and put it in the paper. Anything that would show the weather is always a good option for wild art.  How it's 100 degrees out. Somebody doing something in the water to cool off. In the area that I live, flooding is kind of a problem in some of the roads. And so over time you kind of get used to knowing where all the flooded areas are in your community, in your area. And when the water is high, you just make that part of your route when you're looking for wild art. Or the aftermath of a storm cleaning up the debris. So where do you find wild art? I always had kind of like my favorite places. Just depending on the year, the time of year, the season. If it was summer, I might head down to the river, see what's going on. Places like parks, skate parks. They've always been a good one for me. I always got decent photos in places like that. Maybe the fairs in town. And you might just want to go and walk around the fairgrounds and see if you can find something that might make a nice photograph with a little cut line underneath. There might be a landmark that you can use in a photograph in some way that could be interesting as a photograph that people would recognize and you show it to them in a different way. You might want to keep in mind what kind of constructions going on in the area. Are they building new roads or a bridge or something? That was always something I kept in the back of my mind. Why would you need wild art? Why do you need these photos? Often when we're working on a story, and let's say the story falls through, the editor will stroll over to my desk and say, hey, you got something that we can put on page one today. I really didn't like it when that happened. And there will be times where actually myself or the other photographer would have something we'd just kind of set aside just in case something happened and we needed some art for one of the pages. And these photos would come about sometimes when you're looking for them and then sometimes they come about just going to an assignment or on the way back from an assignment. On the way to the office, you might come across an interesting scene or subject matter. One of the real challenges of doing that kind of photography, especially when it involves people or a person, is after you've made your photograph, approaching that person and getting their personal information, asking them their name, where they're from, telling them what you were doing, why you took their photograph, and if they would mind being in the newspaper. You never get used to approaching people like that in public. I don't miss that. I don't do that anymore. I didn't really enjoy it at the time. But you just bite the bullet and do it because that's part of the job. Now, I don't know if newspapers still rely a lot on wild art. I suspect on a slow news day they do. We kind of had a rule that we generally ran local art on the front page. We didn't use wire photos unless it was a really important big story. As our lead photo, I was really fortunate to work for a newspaper that valued good photography. Our editors knew that the photograph is what really would get people to look at the paper. When they laid out the pages, they laid out the pages around the photographs. They didn't lay out the stories and then squeeze in the photos. They actually laid the photos out and then put the stories around them. It was pretty cool to have such an impact on what people saw on a daily basis. I enjoyed this little glimpse into the newspaper photography business. This is just one type, one aspect of the photography. I think I will go ahead and add more to this deconstructing photography series with the topic of news photography. Some of the elements that might be of interest, the types of photos that you might take. And today we just focused on the lighter side, the art side. So I'm going to end today's video right here. Until next time, thanks for coming along for the ride.


The Parable of the Sacred Turtle There once was an ancient Taoist master who was a great philosopher and strategist. He had a wide array of different skills, which made him very sought after by a few rulers. They wanted to use him for his abilities to advance their personal goals. One of the rulers, King Wei, sent his courtiers to find the Taoist master at his home and invite him to be the leader's chief counselor. Many people would find this job to be a blessing or an honor. When they went to his home, they found him fishing by the riverbank. The courtiers saw his living situation and thought he would surely jump at the opportunity for a high status and many riches. As they approached him and showed him the invitation, he responded with a story. Once upon a time, there was a sacred turtle which lived its life happily in the mud. It would roll around all day enjoying its freedom in nature. But because it was considered a sacred turtle, it was captured by the king's men and taken to the palace. There, they killed the poor turtle and used its shell to predict the future. The Taoist master then asked the guards if they thought the turtle would have been happy to give up its life to live at the palace or would it rather have lived its life in the mud. The guard answered that, of course, it would obviously be happier in the mud. And the Taoist master replied, well, then you have my answer. Go home and let me be a happy turtle here in the mud. And so he lived out his days at home the way that he wanted to. This parable shows us that we must do that which makes us truly happy, following our hearts on the inside. It is not up to other people and their expectations to bring us inner peace, but our own actions. Further, asking the question of what really makes you happy in life and honoring the simple, natural beauty of the world is imperative to a good life. This is kind of a sad parable at first because some dynasties in China really did engage in ox and turtle bone readings, so there's actually an element of truth to the sage's story. Allegorically, however, this parable goes both ways. We must do that which makes us happy no matter how simple it may seem, but we should also not assume to know that we know what's best for people just because we see things from a different perspective. Everyone ultimately lives according to their own level of awareness and consciousness. What makes one person happy will sometimes be opposite for another. Today there are people who aspire to have a fancy car, a big apartment in a major city and a big paying job, and you also have people who want the opposite of that, a quiet life in nature, away from those kinds of people. And both of those are entirely okay. By giving into the pressure and expectations of others, we will hinder our own happiness. Trust yourself and do what you need to do to fulfill your desires in this life.


Hey, my name is Reed Pinkard and I'm a freshman here at the University of Arkansas and I stay on campus specifically at the quad I think my favorite memory has to be when I got into FLF freshman leadership forum And I was finally able to meet my small group and specifically my small group leader shout out to you Lauren I love you to death. Also just meeting everyone in that group and figuring out just how similar we are But also like embracing our differences and finding out like who we are as people even though we haven't known each other for too long I know that that experience is going to be get even better as we go on my weirdest experience It has to be like regarding my Tuesday Thursday class. I only have 15 minutes in between each class So my transition from Kimphal all the way to my world-like class, which is on the other side of campus Having only 15 minutes and then especially the beginning of the school year when it's hot and then you get sweaty Getting to that class and being the last person and only having one seat left in the front And then everyone's watching you walk in has to be the weirdest moment I think one of the biggest challenges of living on campus is like fostering a sense of community when you first get here It's for sure going to happen at some point, but trying to find that community I'm like where you fit into is probably the most difficult thing that I found Luckily enough after a couple weeks I found where I fit in like the community that I'm most safe and love to be a part of


The BBC has released a five-part documentary on Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. It's called Blair and Brown, The New Labour Revolution. The documentary is a fairly thawning affair. It's got extensive interviews with Brown and Blair and lots of people who worked with them, lots of their allies. I've only watched the first three episodes so far. I can't vouch for the final two, but so far everyone speaking has taken it as an absolute given that New Labour was a good thing that they had to come in, take over that party and defeat the left. There was no one giving an alternative perspective. Despite that though, there are still moments I found revealing. This is Tony Blair describing the reason he got into politics. I read Law which was a mistake because I found it very boring as an academic subject, but by my late twenties I was full on and flat out as a lawyer. I've never been to the House of Commons and I always remember going into the lobby, into this vast cavernous marble lobby and it was a very odd thing. Just the moment I stepped in I thought I've got to be here. That kind of moment of epiphany, if you like, that this is what I was going to do. Very strong. My precious vibe. Blair need to work under the beautiful roof of the House of Commons to feed his ego. Aaron, what did you make of that? I mean, the critique of Tony Blair is that he didn't believe in anything. The reason he got into politics wasn't to help people. It was to feed his own ego and there he is. Just saying outright, I've never been to the House of Commons before. I hadn't lobbied anyone before, presumably he'd never been there on a protest. He went inside, he saw this grandiose roof, presumably reminded him a bit of Bayley Owl in Oxford and he was like, I have to be here. This is my calling. My calling is to be in the heart of power in Britain. Looking at it from a sort of intellectual level, Ralph Milimand and Leo Panitch, who recently passed away, theorized parliamentary socialism in this country as having certain problems and they viewed the Labour Party as a limited vehicle for socialism because the Labour Party MPs viewed themselves as parliamentarians first and socialist seconds at best. I mean, Blair wasn't even that. Which is to say that they have a sense of duty and obligation to the British state before their party or before even the working class or their constituents. I think that video, Michael, conclusively and comprehensively sums that up and that's a great piece of primary documentary evidence for the Miliband hypothesis. Ralph, I should say, Michael, not Ed or David. As I say, the documentary didn't include many people critical of Tony Blair. I mean, I can't think of anyone who was outright critical of Tony Blair, allies and colleagues, but the egotism of the then Prime Minister was mentioned by Richard Wilson. He was Britain's top civil servant between 1998 and 2002. Yeah, nice to see you. Mrs. Thatcher knew that she was a remarkable figure, that she didn't dwell on it too much. There was a much bigger element of ego in Blair. Blair was always exploring who he was, about how far he could push the boundaries of his own achievement. And I think that was privately, inwardly, the centre of his ambition. That seems like a very self-obsessed. What am I going to say about that? Yes, I think he was. I think he was the centre of his universe. I think he was the centre of his universe. I mean, you can kind of see in that interview and Tony Blair's egotism, they talk elsewhere in the documentary, there's people who, you know, he thought he was the Messiah, Jesus-like quality. Sometimes it worked to great effect when it came to the Good Friday agreement. They were discussing that in episode two, I think. But it led to complete disaster. This idea of having a leader who is just obsessed with constantly maximising their own impact on the universe, you can kind of see the direct linkage between that attitude and the Iraq war and all of the biggest disasters of new labour, can't you? Well, I'd even go a bit further, Mike. I would say that there's really no legacy of new labour that's positive in the long term. Now, new labour did some very good things, particularly in its first term, devolution. I mean, that's a good legacy, but not if you like the union. I don't, but I presume most people do who are big fans of new labour. You've got the fact they introduced proportion representation for European elections, European Parliament that allows the rise of UKIP, arguably that sets the foundation for Brexit. So those are two big errors. You've got obviously the minimum wage, which is really positive. But other than that, massive investment into education and the NHS, which of course was fantastic, but it's been rolled back in the last 11 years. So then you haven't really got a long-term legacy. Like from 45 to 51 with labour, you have the welfare state, the NHS, we still have it today. Not perfect, not intact, but we still have it. You look at Margaret Thatcher, she completely transformed the national housing market. She completely changed the provision of things like energy, water, public transport. Those are really long-lasting, enduring legacies, but theirs isn't. And I think that's partly because of that sense that his own political representation mattered more than the project. And I think ultimately, that's why somebody like that, if you want to win and you want to change things for the long term and be remembered in 100 years time, somebody like that actually has real downfalls and downsides as a leader. So yes, of course, he won three elections. I mean, what's the long-term legacy of that really? Failed foreign policy, evolution, fine, minimum wage. That's kind of it. That is really kind of it. And Blairism is an orthodoxy in how it embraced financialization, the city of London, again, completely found out in 2008. And of course, it was better to have labour in charge doing that stuff between 97 and 2010 in the Tories. I don't think anybody on the left dispute that part of the foreign policy stuff. But the idea that he changed Britain forever, he's a titan like Churchill or Atley or Thatcher. It's nonsense. It's not remotely true. You can't even really compare him to Wilson and Roy Jenkins, because some of the stuff they did around liberal values in the 60s, death penalty, divorce, et cetera, et cetera. I think it's more of a legacy there even. So even though he won three times, he's quite an insubstantial politician, Michael. And I think that's because his priority was always how Tony Blair represented here, rather than what's in the long-term interest of the political project I'm attached to. And you're going to get that politicians who don't put their party first or don't have a certain project in mind. He hated the Labour Party. The Labour Party was a vehicle for Tony Blair. And ultimately, that meant they lost many members, many votes, and even the political legacy, like I've said, wasn't very substantial. As I said, I don't think the documentary is incredibly well done, but it is interesting how long they talk to Tony Blair for and how little you hear about what he actually wants to do beyond saying, I want to modernize the country. It's very, very abstract to what end, in what way.


Hello and let's talk about the first installment of Finance Minister Nirmala Sitaraman's economic package. This was announced yesterday and the reaction was well underwhelming. The day before the Prime Minister announced that the total economic package would be 20 lakh crores which would be 10% of the country's GDP. This was widely celebrated despite his own announcement that this would include the previous package and liquidity injected into the system by the Reserve Bank. It was soon clear that the actual amount spent by the government would be much lesser. Finance Minister Sitaraman's package yesterday confirmed this. Here are some details. The main focus of the package seems to have been on the MSME or the Micro Small and Medium Enterprises. Collateral free loans to the tune of Rs. 3 lakh crores were announced for MSMEs. The definition of these MSMEs has also been relaxed so that more enterprises can come into that category. As part of focusing on local production, government contracts for up to Rs. 200 crores will be reserved for Indian companies. Non-banking financial companies, housing finance companies and micro-finance institutions will also benefit from a Rs. 30,000 crore special liquidity scheme. Other announcements include a 25% reduction in TDS and TCS, a reduction in EPF contributions and an extension of the date-to-file tax returns. All in all, this was a set of policies based on giving credit as opposed to putting money. All in all, this was a series of policies based on credit as opposed to putting a lot of money in people's hands leading to the question, where will the demand come from? Who is going to pay? We talk to journalist Anindya Chakravarti on this announcement. Thank you Anindya for joining us. So, we know that Finance Minister Nirmala Sitaraman is set to announce the second segment of the package today evening at 4 o'clock. But let's first talk about yesterday's announcements and before we get into the details, what do you think is the government's strategy while adopting or looking at, say, implementing or announcing these policies? I think the government is following whatever the strategy that it has always followed, which is to give round numbers. So, 20 lakh crore is a great sounding number, which they will repeat at every election meeting. Never been done ever. 10% of GDP given by India, whereas no other country has given this and no one is going to check what that amount was. And I think I was on television the same night when this announcement came and I had predicted that it won't be more than 2-2.5% of GDP, the real fiscal outgo. I might turn out to be wrong because yesterday's announcements, the total amount of fiscal cost to the government is 16 and a half thousand crores for 6 lakh crores. So, for 6 lakh crore of announcements, the total fiscal outgo is 16 and a half thousand crores. So, that 2.5% that I said might turn out to be wrong, completely wrong. Might be much less, sir. It might be 1% for all you know. So, a key aspect of this policy announcement seems to have been the MSME sector. The definition of the MSME itself has been sort of expanded. There have been given a number of other say amenities as well. So, do you see this actually translating into a huge production of jobs or say at least a retention of jobs? I think that the MSME sector was definitely facing some kind of a liquidity problem. By liquidity for our viewers, I know Mr. Modi, the Prime Minister has used it repeatedly, but most people don't know what it means. It is the availability of credit or availability of cash funding. That was a problem. There is no doubt about that. But it is also true that after you take a loan, you need a market to sell things. So, people have to have income to be able to sell things. The government needed to create jobs. It's as simple as that. On the one hand, as we discussed last time, the government is saying that we are going to push MSME because MSME creates jobs, but they have also ensured that labour laws don't have to be implemented in most of the BJP states. So, therefore, it's a higher and higher thing. I don't see MSMEs hiring more people, taking more loans. You know, the first thing that I did when I first gave up my job was to repay the economic stimulus that I had taken from ICIC, a bank to buy a car. It was a five-year economic stimulus which I had to pay back every month. So, when you get an economic stimulus, which is essentially a loan, you have to have a business decision to make and then pay it. Yes, a lot of people are in stress and they will just have to... I think they'll just keep their nose above water and say, what is it called? So, we have to survive by taking a loan. Yes, and that is an essential part which had to be done. Why the government had to do it? I don't know the RBI could have done it also because the RBI has already done it. Exactly, it has already done it. 8.04 lakh crore worth of liquidity has been already added. From the time this COVID-19 system came into place, out of that about 6.5 lakh crore has come, I think, after the lockdown, if I'm not wrong. And some of it right just before that. So, the other key aspect many commentators noted was that despite all the talk about workers and how this package would be targeted at some of these sections, there was actually nothing directly for the poorest of the poor in terms of the migrant workers, in terms of those who are struggling in the cities, for instance, there has been no concrete announcement for them. So, at the most there are benefits which transfer through second or third parties. I think that the first lot of announcements that they made was meant for them. So, the 1 lakh crore of additional expenditure and the 70,000 crore worth of bringing forward expenditure which was going to take place in any case, which is the PM, Kisan or Mandrega and also taking what lies with states and saying that this is an allocation which is, you know, the money meant for construction workers than the district development fund, none of which is actually the centre's money. So, approximately 65 to 70,000 crore was already committed. Now an additional 1 lakh crore was given, I would say for the poorest of the poor. That was targeted for the poorest of the poor. Is that enough? Well, if 80 crore people get food, cheap food for three months and if they can extend it further, then it will be much more than what they normally do get already. So, these speeches, right? Because Mr. Modi is, if anything, he is a very good communicator. He knows what language to use and if he's using English, he's not targeting the poor at all because he said land, labour, liquidity and laws. He didn't use Hindi words for this. He kept saying liquidity. Now, most middle-class people don't understand liquidity. So, for him to keep saying that word, then he said, local ke liye vocal. He did not use any Hindi term. Vocal is not something most people understand. So, his target was very clearly in this speech, the middle class, because he felt that the middle class is restive, the middle class is in trouble and small entrepreneurs are in trouble. So, the first lot of announcements have come for that. Of course, as I said, that is the same economic stimulus that I took for my car and as we have discussed in the past, we have not ever taken any economic stimulus to buy homes. The economic stimulus is essentially a lot of loans. I had expected it to be, I had said on the day of the speech that 8 lakh crore has been given by the RBI and another 5 lakh crore or odd will be issued by the government. More will be given to the, so 13 lakh crore will be dead. Now it turns out that 14 lakh crore out of the 20 lakh crore is already essentially credit out of which 16.5 thousand crore is what the government is guaranteeing. So, what is going to come next? Some middle class stuff. I'm assuming something will come. The government is obviously trying to put more cash in people's hands. So, I remember when I used to hire young people, they wanted to be on contract even when they got permanent jobs because as soon as they got a permanent job, their provident fund deduction would go, so their tax rate would not be the 10% that a consultant pays and they wanted more. They said, I don't want provident fund to be deducted because they didn't think of the future but when you told that TDS deduction, like I pay TDS, TDS is deducted on any fee that I get and when that is 25% less, it looked like I've got more but at the end of the year, I'll have to pay that because the tax liability is not going to go. My PF, which is my own money, 2% of it will come in my hand. I can spend it. It's not a mandatory saving. So, those are things I suspect there will be some more for the middle class in the next set of announcements. People said, where is this 20 lakh crore going to come from? One mustn't forget that it's very easy to do this kind of accounting. Don't forget that the government actually announced, Nirmal Sitaraman announced and the Prime Minister himself announced that 100 lakh crore will be spent on infrastructure in the next five years, by 2025. I think that was the announcement. So, at that time it was about five and a half years or so. 100 lakh crores is five times 20 lakh crores. If you can say 100 lakh crores, all that 100 lakh crores is loans. I mean, the total amount of credit dispersed by the banking system in 2019-20 additional credit is 10 lakh crore. So, that is the stimulus in any case. So, this would have happened in any case. I see nothing extraordinary, but the government has asked for 4.2 lakh crore more compared to what its initial public borrowing plan was. So, that has been increased by 4.2 lakh crores. But I suspect that it will be short of at least two and a half lakh crore of taxes, not less than that. Whether it's GST and stuff like that, it's going to be short. You know, even though excise duty on petrol diesel has been increased, no cars were out on the road. So, I think the total earnings of centre and states on petrol diesel is also lower. We know alcohol is a great thing for states and they were going to earn money but apparently because of the fear of social distancing. So, I'm saying that therefore there's going to be a two and a half to three lakh crore shortfall in the centre's tax earnings and they're asking for 4.2 lakh crore or more. So, one can assume not more than one and a half to two lakh crore additional is their plan because this was on the ninth of May. So, it's not far back. That is virtually nothing. That is virtually nothing. And I think they're going to stop spending a lot of things that they had initially planned to spend. 30 lakh crore is the total outlay for the budget this year for 2021. It's possible they'll end up with much lesser and end up spending just 27 lakh crore. And that is how they'll open up some space to direct some kind of fiscal spending. But the next round today could be, hopefully will be for the middle class because I'm one of those people, I've actually not lost out because of the lockdown at all. I have been essentially a misanthrope practicing social distancing for a couple of years. But I think the middle class is in deep trouble right now. So, what we also see is that fundamentally there is no change in the way the government is really thinking or this crisis is not about any massive transformation as far as economic or financial policies concerned unlike say certain other countries which have changed track, decided to say change and see even what some experts have suggested that this is an opportunity to sort of change the way of thinking. We've talked about the possibility of printing more money for instance. All that is basically nothing is in the picture as of now. You know, they already printed money when they took the RBI's reserves because that has to be always as a senior RBI executive, former executive told me that that amounts to printing money.  So, it's not as if the government has not printed additional money. The question is when you increase liquidity in this form, how do you do it? What is the route through which it will be increased? I personally think that this government, more than any other government, maybe Niragandhi was somewhat like that, takes every single step based on number of votes that are going to become. So, when we look at the economy as specialists or as social scientists or as journalists, commentators, we think of good for everyone or development and stuff like that. I don't think the government thinks of it in that manner at all. What we are seeing is fundamental structural changes in the polity. This was bound to happen. Liberalization was going to lead us towards authoritarianism sooner or later. That authoritarianism is now in our social body and that is a significant change and makes some changes in the way the economy functions over the medium term or the long run as well. I think that is bound to happen. Thank you Anand.  Thank you Prashant. That's all we have in this episode. Let's talk. We will be back tomorrow with the latest news developments of the day. Until then, keep watching NewsClick.


Yeah, okay. We are live live on the metal voice Not at the metal works, but on the metal voice manufacturing again, you know, it's been a it's been a year since we had Gilmore triumph What's going on Gil? Hey good to be here guys. I Mean 2021 for the metal voice We had an all-time high because we're able to get you on then we got Rick on and then we even tracked down Mike and had him on talking about everything from metal works to the documentary to record day Glad to have you back gilded to talk about the rock and roll machine documentary We've watched it six strings out of six strings is what I call it and a double neck guitar to boot so Congrats and what are your thoughts?  That's in the director's eyes.  That's the banger guys banger film production Yeah, they did we knew they were really good because we you know, we looked at what they did with iron maiden and Alice Cooper and In rush and um, you know, they've done so many great films easy top So we we knew they were they were the top of the food chain And they sure they sure proved it Uh, you know with our film like from at least from the band's point of view We we loved it and the reaction we've had from fans. It's just been over the moon. So it's been great I should plug this right off the bat. So it was available. First of all, it was at the international Toronto International Film Festival That's where it premiered Then it went on crave which the hbo version of Canada right crave it's been streaming on crava. I'm not sure if it's still stream, but I think it is and now This week on saturday at 8 p.m on ctv which again to all your americans. It's a canadian or national Canadian broadcasting It'll be playing at 8 p.m. I believe it's 8 p.m. Eastern time you can watch the documentary there. That's the big plug for the week Yeah, just just to clear the fog a little bit on on the distribution, which is a little You know something the band obviously doesn't control but Yeah, the deal the deal up here in canada right now is the saturday night Uh, the movie's going to play on the ctv network coast to coast in prime time 8 p.m Um at whatever your local, uh ctv affiliate is wherever you are As far as it's streaming on crave it it is continuing to stream on crave and will be there for years And film festival wise. Yeah, we we also after the toronto international film festival The film premiered at the philadelphia international film festival, which is by and we're now scheduled For the sarasota film festival as well. I don't have a date on that And uh, but I think there's going to be you know some announcements coming up fairly soon About u.s. Distribution as well So probably be a video on demand play and then probably a streamer as well similar to Here yeah, yeah very cool very cool Well, when I took away from it, I mean you guys were the original do-it-yourself band. I mean you know all the way from the Pyrotechnics and your pa system and your background and like bike told us you ask gill What time it is you'll build you a watch and I think that really comes through in the film Did he really say that I got to get him back for that one? Yeah, yeah, he got me with that one You know, we always heard rumors back then that triumph never opened for anybody and I I think you know you booking You know that is a square garden. Sorry Maple leaf gardens and it really explained why how that came about that that rumor that triumph never opened for anybody. So Yeah, it was just it was just a thing that we Drumped up. I don't ask me Why like all the agents and everybody told us you guys are nuts. That'll never work Um, you know, we got so many negative Bits of feedback from you know that when we were getting started that it never fly But we we managed to just convince Our american label when they signed us we just convinced them. I mean they they came up here. They saw us You know playing a you know big crowd at maple leaf gardens here 12,000 or whatever it was And that was kind of our audition to the american label And so we said hey we can we can sell out all the arenas in america too. You just got to believe in us And and so they gave us a lot of tour support in those early days those for that first round of touring And and but we still had we still had people telling us.  We were playing the The public hall, which is you know, 3 000 seats. We wanted to play richfield call seam, which is 15 000 seats And so the promoter convinced us to open for alice cooper that actually didn't open for any special guests. So um Billy uh, oh my golly. What's his name not billy ottle I'm forgetting now. It'll come back to me. It doesn't matter was the opener. We were the special guest and um And alice cooper headline and we hated it like we were like this isn't this is not our set This isn't our stuff. It doesn't sound right. It doesn't look right. I mean, I love alice But you know, it just was not a good move. So that was the one and only time we tried it.  So it kind of proved our theory that we were right all along And just and just to plug this for everyone who hasn't seen in the us is anticipating this It's the story of triumph, right the inception Till I guess we'll call it to the sort of retirement era. Maybe we'll call it and at the same time the story parallels the superfans Who are Getting together and I think it was started started by nancy inch who who who started that whole movement And it parallels the superfans getting prepared to go see triumph on that sort of final show At metalworks and it's filled in with heartbreak and dynamics and even cartoons. I don't want to give it all away, but But well done. The story is told so well It's just you can watch it over and over again and people who don't like triumph We'll even enjoy it and learn something from triumph. Oh, yeah, I remember that song Does that summarize it pretty good? That was a good summary I can say anything more than that I'd say, you know, it's a story of of you know ups and downs and right turns and left turns and like you said The fans are kind of Part of the film too. I mean their their life experience with the band and some of their stories You know both both sad and happy that blend in I I I just think that people have asked me why have we gotten such a good response to the film And I said I think it's because you never know what's coming next like it's not a consistent story It doesn't it doesn't go a bcd e fg like it's like it's all leaping all over the place and you know one minute somebody's crying the next minute someone's yelling and you know It just it just goes to so many places and there's so many people That are commenting from different, you know lenses That it makes it I think it makes it interesting and that again, I just give the credit to the directors You know, I mean We were just kind of it flows it what happened their story. They're the ones that created something with it It's a kind of movie and I'm just gonna add this last last bit. It's a kind of movie that It's over like the film is done And you want to see more, you know those type of movies like you just it's not enough. I want to see more That's a kind of film it is Well, it's it's I think maybe again because it's a series of stories It isn't it isn't it's woven together into one story But really what it is it's like you open the next door and you go. Oh my god. What's on the other side of this door? You know, it's like a I don't know whether it's a house of mirrors or house of horrors or what it is You know what I mean, it's if there's a surprise every minute That's how I feel about it. Anyway, otherwise. I don't think I could watch it I would be just like I don't want to see this stuff. I was there and I know what happened But it's kind of fun for us to watch it because all the characters and things they say and everything it's it really makes it We interviewed rick about a year ago Right after we interviewed you and he was saying, you know, watching it and just watching the rush is He said, you know, all this stuff brought back some emotions and you know, I thought this was the past I thought they were buried but they started coming To the fore funny you got a little bit emotional and you can see that in the film that any any particular scene Kind of across there you was difficult to watch or you enjoyed watching No, I mean I I I found there were a few sad spots that were You know, they were kind of tear jerkers for everybody, you know, I guess for the band included but You know, it was part of it. It was part of the journey. It was part of the story and it's it's it's kind of what made the You know the fabric of the film And and the the narrative, you know, interesting if You know too many of them I've seen have been, you know, kind of just a straight story that's almost like a You know radio interview Well, then we went here and then we did this and then we recorded that out more Trouble lives everybody already knows that story, you know, I I've watched music documentaries where I've come to the end of it and I go I didn't learn anything about this band. In fact, I knew all this stuff going into it So I think it may be the secret that the directors really nailed with with the triumph documentary is that I think that No matter how Close you were a fan of the band or anything else like you just got hit with stuff left, right and centered that just seemed like Oh, I didn't know that I didn't know this story or wow, that was different. You know, I think it's that sort of Series of twists and turns that make it, you know, interesting The fandom that's what I learned the fandom like How many I guess it's because you went away too early, right? And when bands sort of will call it retire early They just you left on a high note. That's what it was. You didn't leave on this sort of tragic end um A lot of people asked me I got Ron saying is there going to be a dvd and will that include bonus material? And I'm sure there's a lot of material that wasn't included in the documentary Yeah, there's going to be a dvd for sure Uh, I know they started working on the packaging and the artwork Uh bonus material. I am not sure Uh, again, that's the film company's decision So it would be whatever they decide but uh, like certainly the band is not against it and um I think that they're targeting it for late summer early fall for the dvd release And that that'll be available everywhere worldwide Very cool When jerry did an interview with rick earlier about six months ago He was saying like this is kind of bang or found in ira did went through the footage And you know, they had to build the film constructed like you had mentioned And um, we're just wondering, um You know Just lost between a thought every second but perception Yeah, yeah When you when you three are sitting down And and does do one of you feel oh, you know what? Maybe it's not my story. It's not triumph story. Did everybody feel like the story was well represented with each band member Well, I know I know I did. Um I remember, you know in an early cut Uh, when the director said, what do you think I said you need to get more Of mike levine's perspective like it seems like this Film is all me and you know rick and I and and i'm not hearing mike's Voice enough and they they listened to me and they they uh, you know, they added Uh, they they thought it was kind of about a balance because the one funny thing about our our group Was that you know, the three of us as as similar as we were In in terms of our intent and what we were trying to do musically, you know as individuals I don't think we could be more different, you know, and maybe that's why we were you know, we were You know good good working together for for many many years Um, you know, I I get the fact that you know the film Uh, you know also talks about you know the breakup of the band or Whether it was a breakup or stopping playing whatever whatever the case may be but Like you said, you know, we we stopped when uh when it was appropriate Based on what was going on in our lives and each one of us was in a different space at that point In time, you know for me it was all about my my dad and uh, you know, rick It was a different story and you know, mike was you know, kind of caught up in it between us So I don't have any regrets. I really don't and I I think that In the film, I think if you Were a fan of the band or or or just a casual observer You you really heard the all three voices pretty loud and clear as to What they were what they were thinking and and and feeling and what the journey was like Yeah, I think the perspectives of everybody's well represented and you know going back hindsight being 2020 looking back That you said there was a difficult time for everybody. Do you think taking A space taking a rest and stopping the rock and roll machine putting that aside and coming back to it Maybe a little longer. Would that have helped at that time? um I I think it's that's an individual question. I know for me. I was not going to go back to the touring life Uh, I made a really really To me a very positive decision at that point that was based on family Uh from two perspectives, you know wanting to be in toronto and uh, you know have a stable existence raise my kids properly But also to look after my mother because she was she was i'm an only child She was left alone after my father passed and I wasn't about to you know, be in a hotel room, you know, 2000 miles away Uh knowing that you know, she she needed me at that stage in her life because You know, she was in her in her last decade and she'd had a stroke and and uh, You know, she had a little bit of impairment and she she needed her family there to help her So that was more important than you know, what we've done with triumph I figured we we'd proven our point, you know, we came out of canada. We were like You know held bent for election to try to you know, make it big in america Which is what all of us that we you know were surrounded by we're all trying to do and and we got there But you know, once we've gone around that circuit, you know Like five or six times and all those cities feel like whether it's detroit or san Antonio or You know baltimore or san francisco They all start to feel like man.  They just want to keep going So, you know, it's over literally die on stage. That's that's that's not me um Mike and rick. I mean They got their own individual feelings about it. But I I don't think there's I don't think there's that much disagreement about You know the way things ended. I think that We've resolved whatever differences we had and I think that I think Mike feels good about triumph and You know what our career was and I think uh rick the same way and You know to this day with the loyalty we still get it's just incredible um And going through this process with you know the film and and and all the hall of fame that we've done including yours Uh, it's been a great. It's it's been a great ride at this stage We should also mentioned Trump was inducted into the metal hall of fame Uh, just a few months back maybe six months back now and just so you know gill That on amazon And I believe apple tv and all the rest of the streaming services It will be available so people can watch it there too, but I'm not sure Yeah, I think it's happening the next few days. So everybody stay tuned to that triumph inducted into the metal hall of fame Of course, of course um We're we're interviewing uh david bellino. He did the uh documentary the gas list the most dangerous A night club. Is that what it was called? Alan the the most dangerous. It's the when greatly played What was it called the deadliest concert in america, which is Unfortunately happened or probably it's old in the road island with the great white We recently interviewed him we interviewed him and we couldn't help but to think you know The bands like triumph and other bands like triumph we used pyro back in the day Did it ever concern you and worry you I mean because as fans we were there we were at those clubs and You know We watched we experienced it and you guys were on stage Uh, was pyro did you ever get scared of this whole pyro thing? I personally didn't but I was the pyro maniac in the band You know, uh, like I said in the movie pyro was mandatory, right? So, um You know that tragedy to me was you could have been avoided with you know, kind of some common sense I mean it was a low ceiling and it was flammable. So I don't know what the pyrotechnician was thinking Um in that in that environment, you know in arenas, it's a whole different deal I mean you're dealing with you know a ceiling that's 40 40 feet or more Up there for the most part and so, you know the the flames and stuff dissipate I mean we we did some damage to ourselves one way or the other we all sort of got burned that one time Um, but I don't think I don't think we ever burned a fan or or anything We burned a couple stages. We got in trouble for that but It was you know, I I will say this I you know, I think we were young and foolish and I I think that Um, we know a lot more about safety now Right across the board. I mean look at these wind events that have knocked stages down and killed people Yeah, I mean through that When we when we played rocklahoma for example, which was one of our You know kind of I'll call it one of our two reunion shows like sweden um Sweden rock and then we came over to To dalas and went up to prior oklahoma and played played that show The very very next day Like tornado kind of gale winds came through there and literally this very stage We had played on the night before was you know kind of just turned into twisted metal You know, I think it's You know the rock and roll shows are they're certain areas are dangerous pyros one of them You know outdoor and wind is is is one of them.  I mean there's a lot of things that can go wrong But you know the people that are you know running the events now and you know like live nation for example I mean they're very professional. They're they're you know long a long ways Down the road towards safety compared to what was going on When we were out there and I think you know even things like like pyro, which are inherently dangerous um, you know, they're they're getting better at making things safer just kind of like every other product you can probably think of it it evolves and so on so Uh pyro is a lot of fun. But but yeah, I think you know looking back on it now The whole industry was a little on the dangerous side and Um, you know that accident with uh with great white was a real terrible tragedy That's probably the the one thing that's really stood out in everybody's mind about pyro being dangerous Yeah, but looking back, you know, you learned from the pyro by looking back and looking at the documentaries Or anything that said I can't believe we had the cahonis to attempt that or to do that. That was like the whole movie Yeah, uh Yeah, I I tried some stuff on my own that was ill advised Um But you know, like I said, it was really just you know my own You know kind of experiments I was doing stuff with map gas and gunpowder and all sorts of things that I shouldn't have been touching but You know, uh young and foolish And and and and really just a different, you know A different time a different place.  This is one of my favorite bands I love trying my dream is to see them live in canada or where I live in brazil You there's so much love here Tim says was trying the first band to say was tit was sorry Was trying the first band to say in a song that their music style was heavy metal What's in the what's another day of rock and roll? Could have been steppin wolf though well As an interesting question because we've been asked that one before And you're right like the lyric heavy metal thunder preceded Us mentioning heavy metal in what's another day of rock and roll and But it was funny when john k You know uttered those words heavy metal thunder it it wasn't sort of referring to heavy metal music It was just those two words strung together And well, who knows what he was thinking. I don't lose the atomic bomb. Wasn't it? I don't know I kept testing of the atomic bomb. I think heavy metal thunder I think that's what it was but I could be wrong It's hard to get inside, you know, what allurus is to sinking at the time But uh, I love steppin wolf by the way another great toronto band Yeah, yeah mark is saying hi gill huge fans since the 70s saw you guys 12 times And enjoyed all the shows and albums can't wait to see the documentary in usa You're a great drummer and a great singer so Tough but uh, certainly will appreciate it. Let's say that Tom of all the triumph songs in general the songs. I like the most are the songs that gill sang There you go to me They were the harder songs in the catalog but gill was a straight up excellent singer I read somewhere that you were really trained as a singer. Is there any truth to that or? Well, you know, I never wanted to be a singer So when we started the only reason I was singing was so rick could take a break Basically and you know kind of maintain as His pulse and not have a heart attack on stage for doing too much Yeah, so like the last band I was in I had to sing and when triumph started. I thought that great I'm not going to have to sing so that's I started with a bad attitude about it But just because I really wanted to concentrate on drums But what happened is over the course of making records I started to actually really love singing and I thought wow, this is actually really a lot of fun I didn't realize how much fun singing could be and you know I I started getting some lessons from uh, one of our background singers as a matter of fact and then Later on I went further and I and I studied with an opera singer Um, he didn't teach me opera or anything. He just he just worked on my my voice, but uh Ed Johnson, he was he was fantastic a fantastic teacher up here in southern Ontario taught a lot of singers Uh, so I ended up really enjoying singing. It became a fun part of my career Yeah The other takeaway from the movie that I watch it's really to see You know, I get emotional watching a viagra commercially, you know Really emotions go back and revisit the breakup Just underlying surface. It's it's The kinship between the three of you comes through and like any arguments or or pettiness or like like rick says You got to learn how to forgive. You know that really shined through to me in the in the documentary canadiana. That's what it is Alan, that's what it is Well, you got to realize that you know for the most part, um, you know Any any group and you get them on like doing concert tours like we did where it's like endless hotels and And and airplane flights and all that it's it's hard, you know, um to maintain great friendships And we were able to do that, you know, I mean, it's not like we never had an argument or something, but you know None of us ever punched each other out or You know, we nothing never got out of hand if once in a while we'd get on each other's nerves or something We'd work it out So we really had a You know, we we called ourselves the three musketeers at times and you know, there's a good reason for it because We use humor, you know as a tool and You know the only thing I I asked the directors of the movie When they started and they wanted some input from the band.  It was just a lot of fun A rush dude is saying nice hat kill san antonio and the godfather I don't know where the godfather came from. Oh, Anthony Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, joe anthony joe anthony. That's right. He played a huge role in san antonio breaking so many bands like triumph and riot and rush and I don't know rush was more of a from uh, detroit, right? Um Yeah, maybe you want to talk about san antonio for a bit just in how Well, you can see the hat I'm wearing right now in the lone star state You know, I've always I'll I'll never forget, you know, texas and san antonio was our you know, was our kickoff point Um in texas. So, you know, I gotta I I love all of texas, but I guess there's a sentimental favorite there was san antonio and You know, we we had uh, we had the mayor there Um, give us an award at the alamo kind of kind of a piece of the presentation that was really special and uh, you know the uh Big arena in town there hemisphere arena. That's a great venue to play in and uh, you know, we started of course at san antonio municipal auditorium, which is You know ended up burning down But it was it was one of america's great theaters because it was so large It was like the air gone ballroom in chicago in that it was over 5000 seats even though it was a theater style uh venue and and uh, you know, you never forget those places uh, never forget the people And um, you know, it's funny how it it it comes back to you later in life the connections to those cities and You know the people there Randy D is saying san antonio february 18 1977 great show There's a lot of comments here It does here's a funny one. Does gilmore ever get confused with david gilmore Uh, yes, um Yeah, that's happened Um, okay. All right. There's also, you know, I don't know how much hockey you followed but doug gilmore is also pretty famous Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Um, christy says seeing triumph at least five times in the bay area, california They so rocked bill grand presents. Love you gil and by the way, it was frank marino that opened up for you with When you when alice cooper was headlining. That's what somebody said No, you know, it was I just remembered. It's billy was billy squire. It was billy Yes, yes, yeah So billy squire played and then we came out on stage and I felt like the the peanut butter and jelly between two pieces of bread So that was our one and only time we ever did that We went we got back in the dressing room afterwards and jules falcon came in and said, hey, how did you guys like it? We went jules. Love you like a brother, but we hated it, you know Nothing very good We need our we need our crew and our gear and our our stuff to feel, you know, it's like those are like You know our clothes almost, you know, it's like that's what we're used to So we just became so You know ingrained in that, you know Layout that to go on a stage where there was like a back line behind us and stuff and lights that weren't ours It was just I don't know we we just weren't weaned on that You know That's kind of the story Ron and matt and I'll combine this into one question. We'll let you go soon They want to know the fan fest performance. Will that ever be released? In its entirety. I guess there were three songs. I don't know as a bonus tracks or Maybe that'll be the I don't have a definitive answer, but I would say They may be because they were all recorded And they're all in they're all in the can so to speak So there's no reason why that couldn't happen. So I definitely Take that suggestion to mike and rick. Yeah Again the rock and roll machine documentary I learned a lot watching it.  I learned a lot from it. It was a great watch the humanity comes through The the tricks of what you did early on in your career Definitely comes through and yeah, I highly recommend it for everybody that's watching us here and then watching afterwards Definitely So on ctv Right Yeah across canada Check your local listings. It's on prime time 8 p.m. Eastern standard and whatever that means across the country correct Correct over the ctv network and us any any sort of That's like the biggest question when I mean at least is there a timeline of when do you think it'll be released in some time Here's the thing and and we we need to say this loud and clear because If it was up to us if it was up to the band it would have been a simultaneous release um in usa and canada and and it wasn't and it's just really beyond our control because You know, that's the way films work. It's a film company and their district distributor you know round hill in america And uh, you know, all I can all I can say is uh when we know You know, everybody'll know it'll be out on our socials channels and and and we'll be happy when it comes out too Because I feel I feel badly for the us fans who are complaining that they want to see it And uh, and it's not I'm not available at this time, but that will change You know, it's funny guilt because I kind of feel the opposite. I feel like I have the privilege because I'm canadian that I get to see it first. I don't know. I'm allowed to say that right. I'm allowed to say that Yeah Yeah All right Thank you so much for joining us skill and one day we'll get around to a nice tour of metalworks that We're gonna take you up on the invite. You gave us a year ago. We can't wait down I think it's not a metalworks would love to do that. It's just so many things got in the way You take me up Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll do it's been a pleasure always a pleasure. I love speaking to the the madman behind the triumph That's what I love All right, thank you so much