and the election and that disastrous government that doesn't seem to be able to really focus on what is significant towards solving problems, wearing a mask or not, it's ideological and it's shocking for a country like America. And artists are suffering, everything is still closed, musicians can't really play and it's a very, very devastating time, but as we always say, it's a time to reflect, a time to think and it is a time where we can reflect on the essential, what really is of significance of importance and perhaps also reinvent, create new forms because new times, need new theater and new forms of theater as Brecht said and this certainly is a time, something seems to be shifting under our feet and we have to find out we are too close, but artists can and after four months of talking to artists from all around the world, we are now opening it also up to thinkers, philosophers, producers, directors, curators and today, which is a special day for us because it is our 100th seagull talk. So it's even we are stunned, this is a third of the year, how is that possible? It is true, we counted it and today we have with us a great worker in the field of theater and the vineyard of theater as Tom Walker said, who was here with the Living Theater. Handan Esbligin is here with us, someone who is doing a very good work, significant work, important work, somehow slightly out of the limelight of the big stage, but still the light reaches it or what she does reaches the other ones, but she was raised and born in Ankara in Turkey and she is an independent theater director, producer and an associate director of the LaGuardia Performing Arts Center at the LaGuardia Community College and she has been served as an affiliate artist at the LARC as well as New Georgia's and she is also a member of the great Lincoln Center's Directors Lab that Katanio created and it's stunning how many people have went there as a people who have come to our seat and also our talks, almost like the Royal Court International Writing Program and the Lincoln Center's Directors Lab seem to be doing something right and also over a long, long time. She's part of theater without borders, at an E for Young Managers and part of the Emerging Leadership Institute. She has received TCG's on the road grant, which is a great confirmation. Not that the grant is so big but getting it means you're doing good work. It's not so easy and it should be much, much better funded but everybody can do justice so much and she just recently co-founded Identity Crisis Theater Company with English translations of work from Turkey, her native country, as well as the Balkans, Middle East and the Mediterranean's. This is what she's focusing on at the moment, Handan. So where are you? Are you in Ankara? Oh, no, I'm in New York. I wish I was in Ankara, I'm in New York. I know, I am just kidding. So tell us a little bit what's going on at LaGuardia. Lot happening. So we launched our first virtual theater festival called MENA Theater Festival. MENA stands for Middle Eastern North African Theater Festival. So we began Monday, October 12th and it's gonna run until the end of October 17th. So every day we have a couple of events after conversation with you, I will have three events to join, to listen. So we were very busy with that. Tell us a bit about it. I mean, there's a lot to do. Yes. But for many possibilities, you are doing this very big theaters. Big, big ones are not showing their flags at the moment. Of course, Broadway theaters are seem to be invisible but also others are. But some places like yours, which over the years or decades have really supported communities and just continuing work under difficult circumstances. Why do you feel this is important that you said I'm gonna create this festival now? So at LaGuardia for throughout the years, I was creating this festival called Raftraff Festival. Yes. We always nurture artists, emerging artists, mid-career artists. And there was no, so you could be experimental artists, you could be, you know, a traditional form of writing, you could be a director, playwright. We gave platform to artists to create and time to create. So Raftraff was my passion and it's still my passion to give, I think artists needs time to create. So Raftraff was about that. It's not about the product, but it's about the process. So throughout the years I have been working on that festival and it started, Raftraff started actually, 2007, I was a part-time employee at Alpec LaGuardia Performing Arts Center and few years later I became full-time. So I will say 2007, but last few years, it just found its voice. Just basically from the name you can from the title, it is rough. So people just put their idea out there and they experiment with it. And it's very important, I think, for artists to have that time and space to create. So Raftraff was important to me and I didn't wanna say, oh, this is just for Middle Eastern artists or European or Turkish, it is for everybody. So pandemic happened in March and it was the beginning of Raftraff festival and we didn't know anything about the pandemic. We knew it was bad, we didn't even know we had to put a mask on, but Raftraff was about to open. So I was just like saying, oh, please let me open. I work so hard on it, please let me open. So we opened the Raftraff festival, we had the opening nights and afterwards everything shut down. So and what happened during that time, of course March, April for everybody, not just for me, but for I think everybody in New York, it was, we were the hotspot and it was very surreal, horrifying time. And during that time, I felt that I am in a privileged position because I have my job at CUNY. We have our spaces, I can still afford to do stuff. And with that, of course, Raftraff is something I will continue to do in a physical space. But with that, I was thinking, I gotta do more now than ever because I don't know what's gonna happen next year. Do I have the job? Do I have the platform? So what with that idea, Mina, Middle Eastern, North African community I have in New York, I say, I gotta do something about the, part of my identity is Middle Eastern, not the whole, but part of it. I say, I have to do something about this community because they have been giving me a lot and I think it's underrepresented. So I say, this is about the time that we have to give more to people we were in presenting throughout the years. So that came with that. It's part personal reasons and political reasons that I really wanted to do this festival. Of course, it's not just me, my managing director, Stephen Hitt and the group of people at La Guardia say, let's do it. Let's start a season with this and just do this festival. So it was just like understanding the urgency that this might be the last, I am approaching everything as if it's the last time. So I gotta do this for the community, for the underrepresented. So that is the whole idea behind the festival. Yeah, and I think one of the great missions of theater this time you live is to represent the underrepresented who are, or if they are represented, they're even represented by someone else and not by themselves. Big theaters, who should do even the off-Broadway, they function as off-Broadway houses but they're roundabout or signature or others. One, even perhaps, you know, part of what comes out of a Lincoln Center, it is next to the great director's lab, perhaps not visible on the stages and fully. So, and I think, how does it come that you do that in a small space with very little resources? What, was it your personal experience that you felt I have to be a voice, a microphone, or is it part of the mission of your center? It's a part of our mission because Lagardia Performing Arts Center, we are located in Long Island City, which is the most diverse community in New York, maybe in the world. So we have to present that student body and that has been always the mission of, like if you do casting for a play with students, it's so hard to find a white actor. So it's easier to find. So it's extremely diverse. So it's harder to find a white actor than a play.  This is very unusual for New York. So that is our student body. This is our population. So tell us a little bit about the composition of your student body, which represents New York where white people basically are the minority right now. Minority is all minority. And there are numbers if you go to, I won't be able to tell the numbers, but this is like 60 or more countries represented. I mean, has been the student, is the student at Lagardia. So it's extremely diverse. You see when you walk inside the college, it's just the United Nations or even bigger than United Nations. We have been, of course, I have been part of that community and myself coming from Turkey and being an immigrant. And it's very interesting to me, I should put it out there. I never once say to myself, oh, I am an immigrant and I have this mission to fulfill. But since the election 2016 or my position here, I say, I am the immigrant. I am the underrepresented and I gotta do this. I have the ownership of who I am, my identity along with the identity of the college and my job. So we are completely dedicated to the minority groups and just having their voice on our platforms. But it's a personal mission as well. Yeah, and I think it is really of importance to really represent the world as it is, to see the world as it's with our eyes and it is not represented on the stage. And if you go to the big theaters, big places, the houses, it is not there. And part, of course, of the mission of what we think of theater is to give space. Someone said, funny, the theater is done for white audiences, by white writers, by white directors, because that's what you think. It's the norm. It's the rules. These are the rules of the game and we're gonna talk with Florian Maltzaha, who wrote a book about this, that the games, the theater perhaps should look the other game and it's, but the rules are changing. And someone said the overprivileged, but underpigmented people are ruling.  Nobody, I always, I'm stunned by it. It's true. Europe, it's green. It's green. It's a white man walking. And what does that mean? And luckily, it's not a red sign that a woman has to weigh, but it's, what's the big difference in that world? So what is the idea? Who can represent these communities? Tell us a bit, what is your idea? What are your politics about representation? First of all, you gotta give time and space to people for the presentation. Any artist across the board, you need, so I think it's secure place, the place that people feel like, okay, I am not forced to produce or I am not afraid to talk, there's no censorship. There is no boundaries with what you wanna do. Of course, don't forget in the physical space, we are on the college campus and there are rules to that. But what I'm talking about the idea, so it's I think safe space for artists to create and making sure that like when I was putting together a Mina festival, reaching out to people who can give you feedback or help you to make it better. So it's not just your vision, but helping you to put this together with people who has expertise on the field or knows that all of a sudden you start thinking, I say, okay, I have a Iraqi playwright, but how about should I go to Palestine? So you start thinking and putting the pieces together. So you have to make sure I think when you put a festival that you are fair, you do your research and you make it about a team, not just about yourself. That's what I have been finding out more about Mina. And it's very a humbling experience in the sense that like I'm learning from there. I'm inspired by everyone who's there. But I think I'm learning to also be an activist more. Like it's not just about the play reading, but it's more about the conversation. Like how we are, I think it's extremely crucial to put the ideas out there. So you have a conversation with every presentation, right? Yes, we do. Some of them is longer. Like you will have a conversation with, let me say. Abhichek Majundar, he's from India. When I say people from certain countries, actually they are everywhere. They are very global right now, but he's I think born and raised in India, but now. So for instance, you will have a, you will moderate the conversation. He's a playwright. And after about conversations is longer, what I mean by like half an hour to 45 minutes and then reading an excerpt from his play. But also we have shorter ones, like 15 minutes just to say hello, who they are, our website has all the things. But yes, I think conversation and thank you for your program. It's very important to hear people talking. Are you really, I mean, since Monday, I'm taking notes what people say, playwrights, administrative people, like the produce. I say, wow, I am so inspired let me go search more. So I find the value in that so much. And I want Mina to be that platform too. You're doing it now for over 10 years. Is that connected to the community in your, of your place in Queens where you are? Do you have an audience to people come or is it the university? Is it happening inside the university more? Inside the university, we always try to include faculty or students to anything we do. I mean, if you have a play, we make sure that they are included as actors or, you know, assistant directors. But also for LaGuardia Performing Arts Center, our employees are eliminated. It's like they are students who's working for us. I will say 50% of our crew are students. But for Mina festival, because now we are not in a physical space, it's much harder to reach the community. Like you don't talk to someone in the corridor and say, oh, we are doing this or the posters. But we have a student group called Unheard Voices, formed by community students, mostly LaGuardia. They are reading the excerpts from international place. So they are very much involved with the whole process from casting to the reading. And I will tell her Una Bahara, she's the leader of that group, leader of that group. And she's so good, she's the producer. So I am including the community in that sense. Like students are involved with Mina. And also of course, we are always inviting anyone in the college to come and join. We have a faculty member moderating a conversation. So yes, the community- Whenever I came also to the rough-trial festival, you had quite an audience, also people from neighborhoods who came in. So, Handan, why are you doing this? Why do you believe theater is of significance at a university or in your community? I think we have privileges. First of all, I never have to worry about, I get paid. I have a salary like a full-time faculty. So I'm not never worried about, I have to fundraise for a production. So that is amazing. So we have also, before the pandemic, we have physical spaces. I mean, we have two theaters at LaGuardia that is amazing. Space in New York, if you are not in New York, space is everything. So we have two theaters. We have money. I'm not talking about big budget. I'm not talking about a one million dollar, but we have open, and we have a group of people who can put things together. So why not use that to create art? Art is that's all we need. So yes, I think since the day I start working, because I'm a director, I came to the space. I was a part-time employee. I said, wow, we have a space here. You're gonna use that space. This cannot be empty. You're gonna use this like 24 hours. And thankfully LaGuardia Community College is very, has been very supportive to us. So yeah, that's the reason because I have everything that I should be doing this. Why not? Yeah, and I think in New York City, your festival has a track record. It's one of the very, very few places that really give space for readings, for development, for process, and to nurture also artists. I always get emails before they come here. I do this, I'm directing this. And so it is, and I feel often it is not really taken as serious as it should be. It's an enormous contribution, but my question was not also just for LaGuardia. Why do you think, what is the impact of theater and art for real? Why do you think we, it's a tremendous work you do. What, why do you do it? What is the result? What is the reason? What is the meaning of it? I think, yeah, someone has to do this. We have to give space and for me, you need time, you need space to grow. And art is a special needs that more. And for me, I put myself always in the position of the artist, even though I'm producing, that it's not about the fame, it's not about the product, it's not about the money, but just to see the idea coming together in front of you or the implications, implications that what that can be in the future is extremely fulfilling for me as a person. And I think it's essential because nobody gives that room to growth. As a student, like, oh, okay, so you gotta be good at something, but sometimes it's time to get the things right. And that time to me is essential. And I'm very grateful that with the Lagardia, I was able to do that one. So I hope I'm answering your question, but it's a very personal thing. I really believe in growth and time and also risk-taking. I should say risk-taking. You gotta put it out there. And I always tell this to rough draft artists if they feel like, oh, I am in the midst of it. I don't wanna present it. No, that's the time you should really letting yourself to be vulnerable and opening the dialogue.  He was doing that in reading, now we change. So all of a sudden it becomes about the work. So you are attached to it. So you grow with it. It's not just the artist grows with it, audience grows with it. And I truly believe in that. I believe it's a very, very slow process, but I think in a long term it pays off. You get one person dedicated to seeing the process that one person mean one million in maybe 50 years. How do you select the artists? What is important to you of what you present? For rough draft, there was no criteria. There was no criteria at all in terms of the style of the work. So it can be site specific. It can be like well written play. It can be interpretation of Shakespeare, Macbeth. So there was no limit to it, but I think to me the most important thing, the artists when they apply for it, they have to understand where they are with the piece and what do they want to accomplish during rough draft, which means they say, I wrote this piece, but I'm questioning dance using dance for a minute. I really wanna explore during the rough draft if dance works or I wanna make scene one better. So I am focusing on if they exactly know what they have to improve. That's very important.  They have 20 hours and they have a couple of performances. They have to know exactly what they're aiming, what they wanna accomplish. That's very crucial, I think for artists. And they have to build a little bit more in New York. Like it's not something, oh, I wrote a play yesterday, I'm gonna put it on. Their resume, their artwork, their survival in this crazy scene is crucial too. Very crucial. Tell us about some of the artists who you work with. Where do they come from and what do they write about? What are things we don't see or hear on other stages? I mean, for Mina artists, I will give an example because also it's, she was also part of rough draft as Sana's Ghazari. I mean, she wrote the last name, I'm gonna Sana's Ghazari. So I will talk about her a little bit. She was a rough draft artist. She was working on a piece called Red Wednesday in rough draft. And it was about five years ago, I will say. So for instance, Red Wednesday was about her personal experience during the, her uncles, her family, her uncles experience in Iran, the revolution in Iran. So the piece is about that. So she worked on that piece at rough draft. It was first a script, like rough script and she put it on the stage and later on we brought her back to work more. So we saw a production. So two, three years she worked on that piece and you see with Sana's how much is improved with that. And it's called Red Wednesday. It's based on a real life experience. But what was so fascinating to me, every time she's searching something, she's in it, she's finding new angles because she keeps seeing on stage in front of the audience. Okay, I gotta work on this angle. I gotta work on this design factor. So it was improving in front of us and two years, I think she worked on it with us two years. But now she's part of Mina festival. She's working on a new piece. It's called Irene Girl. She wrote it, One Woman Show. She's gonna work on that. So there are so many pieces. I'm just coming up with Sana's because I have been talking to her this morning. But yes, there are so many artists like Sana's working on a piece and it gets better and better each time. One other example, I'm gonna give it to you. American Dreams, right now it is online. It's a virtual, it's virtually happening. Leila Bak, Tamina Woodart was behind of it. So American Dreams was part of RAF Draft couple of years ago, 2016, I will say. So it was just an idea. Leila and Tamina wanted to do something. I say, if you have this idea, American Dreams, now American Dreams are a full production. Van to Cleveland Public Theater. Nav is all over and it's just game momentum. They found the voice for it. And it was, but during the RAF Draft they were experimenting with the idea. So, and it's still going on right now. I have to watch what they are doing. But yeah, two years from now they built that and they're still building and Nav is a full production. In those 10 years of really working with stories from writers from around the world, from immigrant families. I mean, there was Marcy Arlen had the Great Immigrants Theater Project. I think you in a way took that over because we have also the play company that's dedicated to productions of international work. We have our Penville Voices Festival. But I think you're very special. We've got so many artists who give space and place to. So what are your rules? What did you find out? Let's say, can a white actor represent Arab character? Can, who represents who? Is it, has the director be from the country where they are from? How do you deal with languages? What did you find? What did you experience where you say this worked? And also what does not work? Where? I'll give an example of Mina because it's just recent. So we are reading the excerpts from the plays, International Playwrights. One of them was She, He, Me by Amal Rafal Kori. So it is about two transgender characters in the play and one other gay character. So for that is an excerpt, but the mission of the festival to make sure that students read that those parts. So it was almost impossible to find a transgender student who will read for 40 years old character. So that's right now is you are at the decision of do I go outside, find a transgender, which will be the right thing to do. Of course, those experiences should be told by people who transgender, but with that particular one, we went outside, we found a Middle Eastern actor to read the transgender from male to female for the role. But what happened is that and the other two students read the part, but none of them was transsexual or gay, but the actor who read the trans part was from Middle East and the character has to be Middle Eastern. So she gave something about being Middle Eastern to the part like Middle Eastern mom. So she knew the attitude, she knew the accent. So yes, we missed the transgender part, but we won something, we gave the authenticity to the character. So with that example, it felt very honest, it felt real, I had no problem or these didn't have problem, but in terms of directing, in terms if you had a time, energy and production, if you are doing a play about Middle East, you gotta know about it. I don't think someone white male should be doing a play about the female body. So that's, I'm a true believer of that. Like you gotta have the right casting and right director for it. But for this particular incident, it's work for this excerpt because it was a short time, it felt real. But yes, I'm a true believer of people and it has to, if you are talking about female body, I think it needs to be directed by a female. No question in my mind about that. I'm being much more aware of that now than before, actually. Has the Black Lives Matter movement has that had an impact on your work, your thinking or the students or future work? Absolutely, I mean, I was teaching last semester when the movement was happening and then it was virtual. Of course, I was teaching online and the first 15 minutes of our class was, oh, I went to protest, I was doing that. It was, I think it was amazing. It was, it is amazing. So yes, it was very much part of our conversation, the conversation and also daily activities for some of us. For Black Lives Matter, we really wanna do a festival dedicated to Black Lives Matter, which will be probably in February. But again, we have to find the right person to do the creation of the festival. I am not the right person for it. For Mina, yes, but so we will do a festival about it. For students, we are doing Gaza monologues. This is, it's about the war in Palestine and the kids who's doing the monologues, of course, don't know anything about Gaza or the war, but I keep telling them, you know, this kid is like when we rehearse, I tell them, the kids is frustrated because just like Black Lives Matter, they wanna change the world, they want something better. So that's my communication with students too. I'm using pandemic Black Lives Matter, what's happening in America to communicate something international or universal because I think that's all the same at that. So yes, it's very, very, very inspiring and influential Black Lives Matter. So basically all your students, everybody was involved, went out. Most of them for sure. Some of them were shy to talk about it, but whoever was out there, oh, we walk for hours, we protested today. And some people came to class with Black Lives Matter t-shirts and that's also the faculty members and us. Like what can we do, what can we do? Should we, I mean the platform for it to talk about it and we are focusing February for that to make it happen. But again, I know lots of Mina playwrights. I have a good network, but for African-American committee, I need someone to help us with that. So that's what we are gonna build. So that will be that result coming out. Exactly, so it will be better result, I will say. How do you feel as someone from Turkey, as someone from, officially I think it's even West Asia in the United Nation category. How do you feel being in the US in New York? How was your journey for you? The journey for me. So I got a scholarship to study in US and they asked me, there was an interview process.  And I say, I wanna start post-modernism. I wanna study post-modernism, right? So I came here. So when I came here, I was a brief lead student at CUNY Graduate Center, very briefly, but everybody's asking me about Turkish traditional theater. They are talking about puppets. They are talking about all these forms, Turkish traditional forms. So I say, wow, I'm here to learn about post-modernism. So you're asking me. So that was amazing to me to that how much my identity, where I came from is important as important as the new territories that I'm gonna learn. So I, everything I learned in Turkey, I graduated from a wonderful, wonderful college in Ankara, Diltari Theater Theater, Diltari Theater, I'm trying to say it in Turkish. Anyways, in Ankara University. So everything I learned came back to me. I was saying, oh, I gotta remember what I learned about Turkish theater, what it meant to be that. So that was great for me to build something new in America, but also going back to who I was and bring both together. In New York, and with that, so what I found in New York, everybody wants to put you in a category. They say, oh, you're Middle Eastern. No, so I'm saying I'm everything. I am European, I am Middle Eastern, I am Mediterranean, I am me. So that categorization is something I really forcefully say, no, like I am me. But throughout the years, the years passed, I said, no, I am that, I'm that, I'm that. So my experience in New York, I was, I never went through discrimination or I never felt I was always encouraged to do what I could do. But of course, I am finding more about what means to be other to in a different perspective. It's, I'm still, I'm still trying to sort down and articulate what I mean, but is that I embrace all side of me as a Turkish person which is Middle Eastern, European, Mediterranean. So I am welcoming all and I'm bracing all rather than saying that defending myself for it. So that's where I am with it, for sure. And how is it to be between those two, somehow between those two countries to keep them together in the mind also, which what's happening with Erdogan and Turkey or Trump and the US, how do you, how do you see these worlds? Oh, the, I mean, Erdogan is the, as many people will know is the president of Turkey and now we have Donald Trump. So it's not good. These far rights leadership is not working in Turkey. It hasn't been working for 20 years or more. So there's a heavy censorship in Turkey. And now it's very unfortunate in America we are seeing those tendencies happening towards the directions of autocracy. And so I had this great conversation with a playwright, Ebru Nihancalcan yesterday. And she said that, yes, there is hardship in Turkey. There's a censorship. There's so many bad things happening just like America but there are so many good things happening in Turkey too. And artists is drive there too. And Turkey is divided right now. 50 percentage for Erdogan, 54 for the liberal, you know, liberal and democracy for the democracy. So we are in a divided country in Turkey. We are in divided country in America. So I see lots of resemblances in both countries and I feel trapped in both. So I can, I say, oh, I'll go back to Turkey. Now I can run away from Trump. I don't wanna go back to Turkey. I don't wanna stay here. So, but yeah, so I think it's scared times, scared times. But there are good things happening in both in Turkey and here too. So I should, I'll try to stay positive looking at the good things happening in both countries.  Is theater becoming more towards the political, towards some activism, or do you feel, no, it's more about family structures, playwrights, relationships that often people do say that New York plays, a lot of them by writers are about small world, but very well done, of course, psychologically motivated. So, but what's your, do you see changes? What do you pick up? You have your ears so close. You pick things that people suggest to you. What do you, what do you see? I think it's people, I think all the theater artists I have been working, I am working. I think we are now all activists. I think that I cannot separate theater from the activism. There is, that is, I used to say my choices, my daily life is a political, right? Everything I do is political, like my hair is political. But now I say, no, no, no, we gotta underline the things now. Like I feel like we need to stay articulated before maybe it was just, oh, what I do is shows it. No, you gotta talk about it too. So I think I feel like more and more people are activists, openly talking about rights of the minorities under privilege and that is to me, me as a person, I feel like that, I feel like, oh, we gotta do a revolution now. You gotta talk it now. So I am not being, oh, okay, we'll do art and it shows it. No, let's talk about it too. So that's how I feel. And I think I see more of it too. We're an activist. Everybody's, I feel like everyone I work with is an activist. They wanna say something, they wanna do something. It's not on a stage, it's much larger, it's very global. And we are all on the same page. And it's just, to me, it's things are gonna get better, I think, because of that passion we feel towards art, I think. That's it. So you see a clear position on its take. And it's true that argument or everything is political, which also is true, but it demeans or it devalues art that is clearly political. Because it doesn't really matter whether you do say it or not or everything. Which in a way is what the very big picture, it is not. Do you feel that it has made a difference at your university, for example, to say that we are not your place and we don't go for the Broadway plays where we say we put up how to succeed and show business without trying. Others, we also involve people and you create a beautiful piece of work. You say, no, we have readings of artists from around the world and we have work in progress. Does it really have an impact? So to be really honest, some people might be listening. Where does our university, where should we be going if they have spaces like you around the country? Is it working what you do? I don't see a big impact. I don't see that the world is changing or people habit of liking Broadway or all that. No. I don't think the impact that I would love to have is just like Chekhov says, I think, like Uncle Vanya at the end of, I think there is so baby steps what we are doing. Maybe we'll see the results of it 56 years later. No, I am not changing the group of people or anything, but once to them. Let's say, for me, I am changing. To me is the most important thing. I have the whole life's impact on me. But also if I reach out to one student is affected by what they see what we do or a couple of students, that is to me the impact. But in a larger sense, I think it's gonna take hundreds of years of change. But I just wanna say, as I am under that, but I say, oh, I tried to do the right thing for me. So, but the college is so, of course, sportive, but they will go to Broadway show rather than coming to rough draft. I mean, it has been like that, but I understand that. I am okay with it. So I'm trying to reach that one person. I think one person impacting life of a one person is good. Am I being put too vague or poetic? Am I? No, it's good. So go to here. Plus honest answer about what do we do with the resources we have, the time and energy. And do you feel the fact that you are at a university? Does that effect the work you select? Or if let's say you would be at another place and a center or run your own company in New York City, is there something that makes it different what you present? Lagardia, I mean, I should say that. I mean, from Stephen Hett, he is the managing director to do, she's now a former Gail Mello was our president. Extremely supportive of any controversial subject. So I was very, very privileged to do whatever I wanted. Nobody say that you can do this, you cannot do this. So yes, I think university and being behind it, it is not saying don't do it or like, is it that? Yes, I feel very, very, very lucky with that. I think I always say, I don't wanna be rich. I don't wanna be famous. I wanna be free. And Lagardia gave us that, not just me. I mean, whatever we do. And I'm really hoping that stays that way. I don't know, now we are talking about budget cuts. We are talking about things are changing. Are we gonna, can stay true to what we wanna do? I don't know, but yes, college and faculty, where I am, where we were, absolutely gave us lots of platform. So lucky, so lucky with that. Yeah, it is interesting that work that, let's say in Berlin is done by the Gorky Theater, you know, or the Salabeket in Spain or a World Court. I was this kind of international global rich. It is done by university places, you know, kind of the guardians, like guardian guardians or whatever. But I think like a guardian, I say who's gonna do it? People losing funding, they have to do fundraising and now we still have it. So as to do it, we have the platform. Yeah, if you wouldn't do it, this would not happen. There would be no festival that would wrap us or others giving a place for work and development. And so do you, as you said, you work over a year. So you give dramaturgical help to writers or you help in development or what's the idea where you said, you know, it's being developed on you? Is the critique after the reading and then it's, do you say come back in a year or how? It depends on the artists. I mean, if they need your feedback, if they want you to be there, I'm perfectly fine telling what I think of the piece or the play. It is the best part of RAFDRAF, I will say, just the first conversation with artists. You sit in a room and we talk about their ideas. I try to guide them towards the goal, what they wanna achieve. And with that, it is a very respectful exchange. There's no rules to it. If some artist says, oh, what do you think? Should I do this? I will absolutely tell them, but what will I always say? I always talk about the limitations. I never talk about, oh, you have everything. I said, don't forget. We have like three hours. So yeah, it's an ongoing discussion with the artists, but I'm very respectful to their, and we don't have talkback afterwards. They do have talkbacks with the audience members, but we don't. But what we have been doing, if something is really good, we wanna bring that piece back to LaGuardia. So sometimes we did that, very few incidents, very few times, but we did that, bring back. But it's a conversation. It's a very open, ongoing conversation with the artists. And that's the best part of my job, actually, just to sit and talk.  Tell us a little bit, what were controversies? What were problems you had? What were difficulties? If you can, you know, when was that, when did it become complicated or dangerous? Yeah, like I knew the tone stage, right? So let's say we had this show, drag show a few years ago.  You just have to warn the people that's gonna be nudity on stage, that's fine. So that's, for instance, one thing I just top off my head. Or if, yeah, I got a thing more about it, but like, if I wanna do a play, I'm Turkish and I wanna, we have a Kurdish festival coming up, Kurdish art festival, and it is like, nobody says, oh, this very political between Turkey and Kurdistan, but don't do it. Nobody will say that. Everybody's like, oh, let's do a play. There's a festival of courage and I will be the first one to push that forward. So- In Ankara, you would be in big trouble, right? Yes, exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like for me to be able to say, that's still the beauty in America. We still have that freedom of, I wanna do this and nobody gonna censor or say, oh, you cannot do this because we have trouble with that region or with that group. So that's the freedom of it. That's the freedom of, you can bring the groups that shone by other countries or in Turkey, easily say, no, you can do this here on this platform. And that's okay. To give voice to the groups that you will never hear in Turkey, maybe, yeah? So I feel very lucky about that too. So what did you learn in those 10 years, what you didn't know before? If someone says, we might also do this or go in that direction of work, what you do. What did you learn? What is your experience? But what do you know now? You didn't know when you started. It's a great question. I think I learned, of course, I learned so many things as a producer, like where to be patient with the process, the protocol and all that, of course. I mean, everybody learns in 10 years of doing. As a person, I learned my shortcomings and my strength with the work. But what I learned, I think, to be able to say what I really want or what my vision is, I think 10 years gave me the ability and the power of say, this is what I want, that's what I'm gonna do. I think 10 years, me as a person and as a producer, I learned that. So I think I made the place that I know what I want and I wanna do that way. And with the support from college, from my team, I can do that. But yeah, I learned so many things also, how to deal with the artists, where to pull the block, where to be nice, the budget, all other elements that takes time to learn. You wouldn't know unless you do it. So, you can just learning. Learning is by doing or as Brian Eno says, start cooking, recipe will come or look here or there, but you have to start cooking. It's a play festival, rough draft. And I think also Amina is focused on plays. Do you see their forms, whether it's like site specific or perhaps the kind of documentary theater forms or others, do you feel plays other things we should focus on or do you feel that they are ensemble works also that you see more now done who have a diversity of viewpoints, often no longer one director by two or three. Is there something happening or do you feel in your work, it is comes out of place? For rough draft, what was happening, I think more device work is more. So, that I see more site specific and also something artists focusing more about the quantity of the audience. So, there are so many things, like a place is not for the whole big crowd, but for one person or a smaller group or site specific pieces in a room or putting everybody on stage or doing things. It's more like how to reach the audience. I think that is changing. I mean, that's my experience with rough draft. People exploring the ways, different ways to reach to the audience. That is site specific. I think it's becoming more powerful in this sense. And device theater is something I see more and more happening. The voices of like, not just one person, but many others. So, yeah, but I will say the audience, how people do theater for smaller groups and intimate, much more intimate rather than something you just do it and you done, you creating an experience, I think, is more in rough draft, I feel like. And the more riskier, riskier in some sense. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it is such a significant contribution that also in a way reflects truly the city and also the Queens and what you do. So, what you see on the streets on the campus, somehow if I come to your festival, I also see it there. You engage people from campus students, faculty, and of course, outside directors, outside writers who come and take that opportunity. If you had additional resources and I know you said how thankful you are, but what would you do if you, like Guardier would say, you know, as Birkin is doing a great job, what do you want to do? Is there something where you feel, actually this should happen, this is what we need? What would be passionate about? What would it be? I think global work. I will be bringing right now for me now, we are inviting people online and all these wonderful playwrights, directors. I will make sure people come in physical space, work with students, work with the community. That will be my number one thing, like get the funding and fly people all over the world and just use that for that. I complete, I'm a true believer of because it's my life, I learned that it's just, you gotta be global, you gotta stay global. And if there's a funding for it, go for it. I mean, that will be my thing, bringing any of these playwrights to work with students. That's, I think it's so crucial, so crucial. Residencies, long-term residencies of global theater artists. Global theater artists coming to the community. And exchange, why not go to Palestine? Take the, and we did that actually at Lagardia, with Bulgaria, we built this global exchange.  But talk about Palestine, it's almost impossible or Turkey. You gotta like all these hurdles that you gotta overcome. But that will be the, yeah, the wonderful thing. I think it's just, even for me, I'm listening people doing work globally and I'm saying, wow, there's so little time left to do everything. So I'm like, yeah, yeah, long-term residencies, exchange, taking people, go all over. So I love the fact that someone says, oh, I am from Turkey, but I am based in New York. I am like down in Berlin. I love people to be able to be everywhere. And even with pandemic, people still do that. They still exist in a couple of places at the same time, at the same time, but traveling. Yeah, that artists or companies are no longer even able to pin them down, oh, you're Belgium or you're... I love that, though. I was looking at Amar, one of the playwrights. I said, where was he from? He's in Egypt right now. He was in Berlin, so I, oh, Jordan. So I was like trying to get the pin down where he was from. It's amazing to me. I love it. I love that. So like music travels and people listen to world music, influence, play in different countries. Yeah, and also I think it's a good answer to, if someone said the decolonizing should happen on a planetary scale, we shouldn't think just about America or in our groups. Who suffered more as the African-American? Is it the Latino? Is it Asian-American? There are, of course, differences and they are there. But what is the question? And the question is perhaps, it's about the planet in mind, that the big shift that has also happened is that we have to think about the planet, not ecologically, and the plants, animals, what robots mean or not. Humans playing robots, robots playing humans. But the idea of that decolonization or the dominant, as we Americans all say, the white supremacy or the supremacy of Catholic or Protestant religion also. Others, in some places, or Muslim or Buddhist Hindu and others. So we have to see our work in a planetary scale towards a healing and towards creating a better world and leaving a better work for next generation to come. And at the moment, it really doesn't look good. We are not doing a good job. We do not leave a planet that's as intact and as it is before and as people do say, a lot of damage is irreversible and the current administration, lots of things can be adjusted, redone, two more judges appointed to the Supreme Court. But the ecological disasters we are experiencing, that is real. And there's Bruno Latour and others, Frédéric, who was on the program set, perhaps this is just a rehearsal for vaccines to come and we cannot screw this up. We have to change. Theater has to be part of it, but there has to be something what you do in your place. At La Guardia, with the limited means, it's not a private college. I know how it is. It's a public college, it's very limited. But even if you have this space, that still doesn't mean you can do things. Someone said opera, only war is more expensive than opera and theater. But I think that's what we should be doing. We should not do wars. We should create and do art. So for you, as an artist, curator, producer, what inspires you? Who are artists or people or so curators or people you admire? Who matter to you? What are your points of references in your system of thinking? I'm inspired by artists a lot. I'm inspired by you, right? But who are artists? Say some names. Who do you look up to? You know what? I'm just frozen right now. So yeah, I am inspired by people who is... I will say people. I will say people. I'm not gonna say a name. People that I admire, that there's a strong belief that they can make a change. They go out. They do protests or people when we were in safe space in our homes, like first responders. I don't know why I'm going here, but yeah, I admire the ordinary people who are out there and the artists who was able to put work out there. I think I admire the people who can survive through hardship, I think I will say. And I admire people like yourself. I'm not just saying it to bring the world in front of us, like through the conversations, through the ideas. People who's trying. Who's trying to do something right with their means. They don't stop. People who don't stop and who just keep doing it, even though maybe the impact is this much or none. I think I admire that. I have respect to that so much more than ever. And get up and do stuff, don't just complain. Yeah, I think that a lot. People putting themselves out there. Out there just, you know. Yeah. And of course there are names, but I'm just like, I can't keep thinking of Schitt's Creek for some reason. Because they entertain me that show. I said, what am I thinking? But no, no, I admire people who just get up and do it. And just not giving up and not excusing themselves and using their means, I think. That's what I admire. And I admired during March and April when I was eating from FreshDrag. That's the food delivery. And I was saying, wow, he's out there serving food for me, so. Yeah, no, I think this is a very, very valid and important statement. People who do things who don't give up.  You know, this is a placebo. Actually, you should go out right now and be part of a force that is putting a body into our lives we lives in, and trying to make a change. The great Milo Rao also who's gonna come with Katja Nkarm and talk about his book, White Theater Matters, you know, is someone who really does that and who also found ways and models, I think, to engage with the Congo Tribunal, the Moscow Trials, his work in Mosul and in Iraq and to be really in front of the people there put down a colonial statue in the symbolic way in his theater again. So he's really a provocateur and puts something out and I think what you do, that's I'm so happy you came to the program is a great example. And it is not on Times Square and you will never see it on the billboard. It will not be on the first page of an American Theater Magazine. But I think as Mike and Paul and the food writer said about the silence of the carrots or the silence of the yam, they're really good for you. But you will never see a commercial in the city. I'm content with it. I'm very happy to be here. And what you see the commercial is processed food. It comes from a plant, but it's not a plant. But in a way what you do is these are plants you are engaging in and I think it's something that is of significance, of importance and also in a way a model and also because it's evolving, you put up new things. So really, really thank you for participating and I think this is a good start and I'm happy. So you were our 100th guest, which is a... I know, I feel very happy about it. I'm just... Yes, you should. You know it's a lucky number. It's a lucky number. Yeah, but I'm sure you put together how many artists you presented about all those years. You will also be astonished. So hopefully you all will be able to listen in tomorrow to Florian Malzacher who's also a curator coming from Europe in a way work what you do. He wrote a book about what is theater and what is the political in the theater? What is happening in the time we live in, the time that seems to be out of joint? What are the answers? And I think he found some and has some ideas about pluralism of agonism and it got wonderful thoughts and reflections. And then of course, Mino Rao, who I think is a strong force in contemporary theater and to happen with us again is a big, big honor and Katja and Carmen who really talk to so many artists about why we need theater. And now, so I hope you all will be able to come back tomorrow and on Thursday, thanks to Hal Rao and the DJ for hosting Andy at the Seagulls and of course for you listeners to listen in and we, our talks are not about the Broadway stars and the big actors are people like Handan but they are people who do the work as she said, people who don't give up also in times when they're going, get stuff, the tough gets going I think and Katanya said that so and she's one of them, your leader of your directors lab and so congratulations, this is really important, keep up and I look forward to the conversation with Abishak from India, I was a significant theater maker in the world and you have him at your place. Yeah, I'm so excited about to have him. LaGuardia College is the only thing in the last years the play company did his work, we did some readings for everybody, it's your place that hosts him. So this is a very big deal in our books. So congratulations. Thank you very much. I hope all goes well today. Thanks for taking time out. I know you said you're so super busy but it's a big compliment that you took the time out and all the best and stay safe everybody and audience members, I hope that there's something in there that also created something thoughts are not just in our heads, they actually are real, they have consequences and what we say and what Handan said so we hope it resonates in some way with you because what you said can be transferred also to our lives to be more global, to listen to experiences that things are works in progress also in our life and to live with difficulties, to this contradictions and maybe it takes a year or two till you find something like your artist. So there's something of real significance beside the fact that it's theater and performance and so we gather, we get together in a group and assemble and then talk about life and the meaning of it. So thank you all very, very much and I hope to hear the same call again. So stay safe and stay tuned. Thank you. Thank you.


Hi, let's start Wait in two seconds Okay, thank you very much for coming and welcome to winning and delivering big projects from a small agency perspective This My first talk in a jubalcon. Sorry about that about my English and these kind of things First of all about me. I'm Ramon Villar. I'm a very active member of local community I'm also the CEO and founder of imbra. It's a Barcelona Drupal shop and very active on the Spanish community and now international You can contact me on Twitter or on Drupal.org. It's the same username and on imbra.com First of all We will go away with all the guide of this session first we will Try to introduce all the context what it's a small agency and which type of projects It's typical for us Which type of agency do you work? about five to ten people 10 to 15 15 to 50 More than 50 and more than 100 Okay, there is big agencies too then What about the team and these kind of things the sales process that it's very different the methodology about the internal like development methodology and the sales or client methodology working closely with clients the culture about that and What is the impact and how can impact in our finance on in our team? the context What is a small agency for me for me and very small agencies three to ten people? maybe to 20 or 30 people These are multifunctional team people in this kind of team it's business people Design development testing sales of that maybe usually it's done by the same person maybe on this kind of agencies the sales person and the project manager is the same and With an horizontal architect there is no big director and Vice director and CTO and CEO and project manager is usually horizontal, okay What are the typical project for this type of companies? It's one to four months, maybe six months, but not more Every project is from a different client. We have a lot of rotation of clients it's very hard at the beginning for us and When working with big big clients, usually we have a layer in the middle like Advertising or publishing agencies and this is not very good for small agencies because we can't contact directly with client And then we can't measure what is their needs and what is their problems? And what is our desire our desire is to remove these layers contact directly with the client or with the product manager or Anyway, the person who want this project We want projects that is during more than six months because we need less rotation and focus on Development or focus on business and on different things but not changing every month on different projects Try to repeat several projects in the same client because when I know a client it's Maybe better or not depends on the client. It's better to try to win another project and how can we do it and at the end How we can do all of these things to transform my agency to be the perfect one for this kind of clients how we can do it Please if you want you have any questions or there is something that you don't understand, please than you have first of all Which type of teams we can have? It's impossible to have all the expertise and this kind of agencies because of the size we can't have person Focus on sales and focus on performance or focus on back-end development only we have a Multifunctional team usually but we can focus on two type of agencies We can be generalized or we can focus all of our Development or our services in one or two or three services If we are generous we have developers like on a scrum that Don't have any specific area. They don't have only one Knowledge on on all the layers They can do front-end back-end or or anything usually But usually when you have a person that it's doing all the front-end but if they if you need something on back-end they can do it not at the best or you have a An agency focus on services because You have a lot of knowledge for example on on performance or on servers Then you can focus on that have set of services that you are very Very very good on that and try to to find the clients for these services in My experience for example, it's not Maybe on on the Spanish market that is not very good on that is better the first type of agency But I know a lot of Drupal agencies that are focused on service and are very good And what about the big question? How can you playing your resources? Sorry and working peaks you have a project that it's That have problems and you have a very very Sized team how can you manage that kind of things? Then try to add up your work and your team to the work. It's like Two-directional problem or two-directional thing Your team needs to adapt to the work that you have and the work that you have Tries to up to your team Beware of the mistake was my mistake to hire new people When you have a working peak, it's not very good because the working peak on small agencies It's very very different. You can have two projects on one month. There is 10 projects and then two projects another month. It's not a problem For me the best one is to create a network of contracts people that you teach them About your methodology Development and client these kind of things and try to work with them when you have working peak and What about the sales process because this is another big problem how to introduce In that customer type There is the classic thing introduce you by mail or Make a little visit or something like that. It's very dangerous for us like and as more agency because You want to go to a big client. They usually don't know who you are and Then they don't trust in you but you can use your Your clients and try to introduce to another client of the same type by them For example, if you work for an NGO and you have one to work with for another NGO Try to use this one to introduce to the other one. It's something that seems very very clear but for small agencies, I think it's one of the keys of our performance Another it's be an expert and then try to be a need for them try to be an expert on something and then try to Go to a to a client and and say, okay, I know that you need this thing I'm an expert on that thing. We can work together. It's something that For me works and for us, for example, one of the kids to not introduce you by the marketing Department story instead of the IT for example, we are very good on on project Development and and performance and quality then we try to introduce in another in in a new customer for the IT Department and not for the marketing because we are not focused on design and marketing and then we can Hi for with another Agency, sorry Then there is the methodology How can you? Adapt yourself to the client mythology or then adapt the mythology of the client to yours Big in front of a small if you have a very very big client with a very very close mythology that it's something typical here Then can be a very a very prompt for you like for example the typical big client that needs documents for every Change that you need to do or everything that you need to change on their systems and something like that It's very very hard for a small agency because most of the day you are You are trying to create new documents for them and this is not Very good for you. It can be a little pitfall because You lose your time on this thing and not on on the best that you are that are development or performance on stuff you did for example for us we have we divide our mythology in Two different things the internal one that is how we work on our office like internal development and how Can we work or how we work with the client? For example internally we will use agile as mandatory in a small teams we divide our teams in two three four people and then Create user stories like that. Most of you work with agile. Yeah, there is something that you don't know Yeah, okay Then organize ourself in two or three weeks sprints and As usually and retrospective this is very very important for for us for example to make a little retrospective at the end of every spring to try to to focus on the needs that development team have and then try to To pass to the client and and have the Let's say The needs the new needs right then how How we work with with the client we have only one person As contact on on the on the client or maybe a small set of persons because This is very good for us. I'm very good for them as maybe they don't think the same But is the is the best one because if not you have meetings with people that are trying to to give his His opinion about something that maybe it's not the best and we try to usually have One person of the client side and one person of the IT department of this client side And usually it's it's the best for us Something that is not Very agile, but it's very good for for the client try to extract all their requirements at the first step of the project Not at the at the end like on every spring. We try to extract all of them most and then Go more in depth on every spring and then we can manage with the client all of these kind of things Try to introduce the client and the very Precision of the of the project something that it's very useful for them and Make a demo meeting at the end of every sprint But who will change we as a Provider or them as a client is something that is a typical question For us for example Clean usually don't use agile as their methodology, but we try to introduce Themself on our methodology Adapting work to use agile don't try to use all agile techniques at the beginning of The first project try to introduce them on every project that you work for them and Try to to introduce themselves to the positive things that they can bring with Agile and what is that the problems that you need to to work on them? Work closely with with the client closely with manager as a small agency you need to remove all the classic layers and don't Don't try to to communicate with a person on the client that then needs to communicate to the director and these kind of things seem to be as As best as you can with the the person that have the decision or the final decision on the client side Replace your personal sales person for a technical person because Usually is best because you only have one person on this kind of meetings For example for us because we are a very very small agency and this something that it's Is the best? use plain and direct language to communicate with the client don't try to to To fool or something because if you fail on the end one project on a Big client as an a small you will lose this kind of client and usually This type of of client and don't hide problems and benefits You have to to be very very clear with them and And work closely with it department. It's something that it's very very very important integrate with them and try to be a kind of concealer You should not be a simple provider because they have a lot of provider and they can work with a very very big Agencies with no problem try to be part of the team. It's very very very important And what about culture and how can they impact to your team? How can you explain to your to your client that you don't work? One week because you are on Drupal con or Drupal come or Drupal day. It's something Very very difficult How you explain that you waste time on? models or fixing patches For us for example, we are very plain and we introduce these things at the beginning of the new Conversations with new clients something That we have to be very clear at the beginning of our future relation What about project and community project as Drupal? It's a benefit we try to introduce that it's a benefit for them to improve Drupal as a platform because if they pay As for example to to fix problems in models or patches They will be they will have a platform very shaker and with you do this and another client do the same then It's better for them because we introduce themself in the community too because if they are very active on the community and they want to hire As a client a new developer for the IT department then a Drupal developer Will be very very comfortable to work for a client that works for the community and What about the impact in your business there is two kind of of impact The finance is the first one. Usually big clients are very slow on payments What about introduce agile on on payments for example we introduce A sprint budgets or sprinting voices with we invoice at the end of every spring or a number of sprints because We are doing for example one one year or one year and a half projects and For us and a small agency we don't invoice Anything at the end until the end of the project for us. It's something that will kill us And what about the team? Because the developers is the core of this kind of fashions is then if a developer is Bored to work with you. It's something that you That will convert in a problem then be careful with rotation of Clients it's better to rotate for example if a developer are now finishing a project during a year then it's better for you as a Director or project manager to put this developer to a very small project or maybe to Innovation or something like that to try to to motivate them try to combine big and small projects and Motivation is the key in both the the developers on every phase maybe for for example for me developers are involved on on decisions in our category or in In Analysis or something like this It's something very very important and As a conclusion and conclusion suffering this is not a to-do-to-follow. It's only our side try to introduce Little steps in your in your teams Take care of your teams is that it's something that is the key of your agency as a small and Humanize their relationship with the client try to be kind of a friends Something that you can't and I to the government for me is the the better thing to introduce you more than marketing and Sorry, baby. I was very fast. Thank you very much. This is my presentation Questions Yes Yeah, maybe Yeah So yeah two questions and one you were saying introduce them to agile slowly. Yeah How do you do that because The big challenge we have in agile is getting people to get their heads around The shift from you have a specification that is what you'll get for your money to It isn't going to be like that. So so how do you mean by introduce agile slow? Okay, and the second question was you said be an expert in something they need Find out what they need be an expert in it. I wonder if you could give some examples Okay, the first one We introduced slowly and on agile but in the client side for example For the biggest project that we are doing on the first one. We only introduced themselves in User stories in the client then I for myself. I was the blue corner and then Me and the client write all the user stories and then go to the development team and All these things on the second project for example, I introduced the client to user stories testing on of the of every sprint and Pre-requisition and now that is the biggest one all of these things and then introduce themself To Yeah to sprints to maybe If you want to to do two or three weeks of sprints for example pre-requisition testing and Writing tests they write the test on be heard or something like that for example, and the second question was sorry Okay, sorry. Yeah, for example for for our thing is that we are very focused on code quality and How can you create Different kind of development with features and Continuous integration git be hat and these kind of things we are very expert here and it's been on that then We focus on clients that we think that they need this kind of development For example on this project. Yeah on this project and on this on this client We introduced this methodology on their IT department and is something that helps us to do this project and another project that we will be in the future Sorry. Yeah You need to use the sorry the microphone for the recording How would you recommend to price and estimate the project? Well, this is the big question This is the big okay Wow For me and my experience For example, I try to introduce the agile method of Create budgets that is something that Introduce the client on budgets on how can you react this? But for me for example, I try to when I when I have a very very big project. It's something that it's very Seems very usually but for me it's not I try to to split them on different phases and try to focus on very little phases and then Introduce budget only on this phase and then I think this is a project that usually it's two years project with something like 200,000 euros then try to split them on five or ten product of 20,000 euros this Most easy to manage for you as a small agency because you have a set of ten people on your development team You can manage a two years Project and then it's better for you as a salesperson to manage at 20,000 project than a 2,500 It's something of experience for me. For example, if I say I I try to to recognize more or less the functionalities then if I make this kind of things on the past like searcher giant of Panels or something like this is okay. It's on the past. I spent on that two months then For me, it's the month something like this for me questions Yeah I am Daniel. I get two questions One is about invoicing. Yep at Gile invoicing sounds really interesting So if you could elaborate on that both from the perspective from the client and you and then you talked a little bit about Introducing the technical guy instead of the sales guy. Yep. I am the sales guy and not the technical guy So would be nice to hear a little bit something about that. Thanks. Okay then the Gile Anthology or invoices for me, for example, if I I split a project on maybe I Don't know 10 sprints then I am both in boys. Sorry on at the end of every pair of sprints, for example, two four six eight and ten but after They say that they pass all the test plan that they have then when for them It's the second or the fourth sprint is closed Then I'm boys these two weeks or four weeks or five weeks or these kind of things It's better for me and it's better for them because they have control of everything that they are spending and everything that it's close it's paid and Then the second was about okay the sales person, sorry For me it's best to have Technical and not only a sales person in a small agency because in my experience I introduced myself on the IT department and then They speak a different language than marketing one and this they speak in technical Facts and I'm a technical person then it's the communication. It's it's better for me for my point of view and If it's good your communication with the IT department they as an internal department They will go to the marketing thing and they introduce ourselves That we are a very good company or not a very good company and it's better But if in your case you have a very good person you for example in the in that case on sales And you have a very good communication with the marketing Department is it not a problem. This is only my point of view and my case Yeah, I'm the Dan I got two questions for you so one of them was very interesting you were introducing and On this topic from your previous questions around how you introduce your clients to the use of agile So I understand you could kind of convince them like now we have this cool format with this user story I want to do two-week cycles and get you more involved But how about getting the buying in terms of deadlines and You know, they're they're usually fine splitting features down on smaller cycles, but certain clients have very High requirements in terms of I need it by them because I have marketing campaigns or my operations are all around I don't know game matches for example So how do you get them because it's very difficult to be able for all projects to actually be able to you know Create that you're actually gonna hit that date So how do you go around convincing them? It's out. I'll have you by that day. Your question is about dates project. Yeah, most You have the most valuable items what you're asking for on that date You cannot guarantee up from 18 months ahead that you will have I don't know 200 and all requirements So that will be first question Sorry second question Is around I don't know how you handle your projects because you mentioned you rotate people once they finish the project to a different one And I don't know if within your business model You also run maintenance on the projects that you deliver and whether if you have flipped people to different projects Then how do you handle the maintenance request on this point? Okay? The first one it's about the date or date project or date fit project. This something But it's very difficult for for us as a small and for big I think In in our case that we have also this kind of projects we try to to manage on the requirement part that We try to To be very clear that the requirements are very very clear and try to introduce the Development team on this kind of of projects because The problem is will be not on the client side will be usually at the development side Not because the development are not good only for for times things And I try to introduce this kind of contractors that I mentioned If there is a problem with dates usually I use Contractors because they don't Work only on office hours. They work usually more or they have a little Web on on on his part and then try to mix our internal Team with this kind of contractors and and for in my case It works And the second was about sorry The maintenance. Yeah, the same thing that works on the project is the same thing that maintains this kind of project We try to introduce a small Projects or different projects for the team only for the motivation because if you are working for a year that you start Very very happy, but at the end of every project you are yeah this You are going down then try to introduce to to the developers something that can be very very Good for them, but the maintenance we need to introduce all our Not not to introduce other developers, but in our life cycle when we work with code review that there was a Presentation and with Pedro and Rodrigo that are all developers and For that reason If if for example, there are two people that are working on on project There is a third one that it's review this project then if there is any problem that this These guys can't work on that project Then there is something one two or three that is usually review in project And then they know or they have the knowledge of the project. Maybe not all of them, but usually 90% then we can introduce this team to the project is usually it's something that for for Small agents is very good try to introduce this kind of code review because all the knowledge base will be Split on all the all the teams and not only in one mind. It's something that for me. It's it's very very useful Sorry Are you using the remote contractors and how you manage them? How come how we use teams like another parts of the group or just in here in Spain? How about the mythology well out? No, they I don't know I'm not employed Freelancer from yeah from other parts In the world and not only from Spain and how if yes, no, we usually use People from from Spain from from Barcelona because we have our network very very close Usually we have one on in London, but it's we have Trust in them because we work with them since a lot of years ago, but Your question is about trust or out? Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we work on a scram we make daily every year I every day at On a Skype. Yeah on a hangout for in our case and We use the same mythology their code is reviewed by all the team and the team Code is reviewed by by this contractor. There is the same mythology. It's something that you can vary the size of your team depending on the time and Not to be a problem for for your finance because if you have a very large Team then you have a finance problem. I mean you have a very small team then you can't You can have More and more and more projects. It's something that you you can do it and we try to manage as Team developer as an internal developer the same mythology and the same the same Yeah, I'm working for a quite big company and if there's a call a proposal and we want to get this Client we easily spend like 40,000 euros for getting this and for a small agency I think it's won't be possible. You will be broke easily after a while So my question is how do you get new clients? What is the way to not spend that much money in proposals, for example, okay? As a small agency that the problem can be that you can you can go to a client that will Be your your end. It will crash you and To go to new clients we spend for example Time from the sales department sales department are me and another guy and we try to introduce ourselves like meetings and something like this and try to Start with a very small project the first project for a client It's not usually a big one only because they didn't know you and they They don't want to to pay a lot of money for a small agency that they don't know and you as as a as an agency that want to To To go ahead on time. You don't want to to to work for the first time with a very big Project with a client because you don't know that and then try try to do these kind of things It's not maybe it's it's a response for you question. Yeah Okay, it's all Then thank you very much for your time I Yeah No I just just interesting We just have a lot of stuff on the kit. I'm not sure if it's in there, but it's just in there. Let's go. OK. Thank you. Thank you. You said no. Thank you. Question? I don't know. No. No. OK. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. I'm glad you didn't like it. Yes, it was all my fault for the plan. I'm glad you noticed. Well, yes, I did get a lot of support from the contacts. I wanted to ask you about the project we are working on. Are you making products that you prefer or are you also working with products that you have that you are just... I'm not sure if it works. Do you want to work in a new world in what you already have? Yes, we do, but in our case we have a lot of experience and things that don't happen. I don't know. What we see... I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Let's see the code. We have a lot of books. Yes, we have a lot of things. We have a lot of things. The group has the label. We have a problem with the group. I'm not sure. We have a lot of stuff. I'm not sure. I think it's more of a problem. I'm just wondering if you do what you have to do to save the peace or if you can carry out this project. It's a great thing and I'm not sure. I am afraid to take advantage of the problems. No, nothing like that. I know I have a lot of work to do, but I don't know if I have a website, but do you have a platform for that? Of course, we have a number of products that give interest to the website. We have a lot of work to do this month, because our client has a lot of content, to promote the content of the channel. We have a website that has a lot of content, but not because it is a CMS that allows us to create content. Some of the content is even more customized, so we have a lot of features, especially price features, value features, things like that. Can you tell us a little bit about the website? Yes. We have a lot of independent websites, so we have a lot of interaction, but it is true that we have a lot of channel interaction, especially when we are on the market, we are taking out, let's say, a lot of multibrand websites, because we have different websites, so in the end we had a market that needed support for the language and so on, so we had a lot of investment at a very high level. And it appears that we have a lot of content, so it is true that in its full capacity of people, in terms of its development, because it costs nothing to live in, but nothing to live in. I have seen that we have found one recently. We are in the process of exploring all of the options and how we work with contracts, let's say, in the whole, Yes, yes. Do you still have a plan to put in place? Yes, it's the last time I've done something like this. But the first thing is that we're doing a great job of taking part in the project. I'm not sure what you're talking about, but I'm not sure. I mean, it's not like that. That's not our plan. No, I'm not sure. And that's not in the front either. We're starting with that now, and it brings a lot of technical investment, knowledge, to change the guy a bit, to the people who have also taken part. We'll start with that. We'll come back to that. We'll start with that later. We'll start with that later. We'll start with the project, and then we'll do some time-stimulating. And then… You're going to start with the best part? No, that's not the plan. No, that's not the plan. The 100% tomorrow is not possible. But I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. Oh, of course. It's not my plan. We are not doing it because we are friends, we are friends. If we don't do it, we are the smallest project, although it is three weeks, we are not doing it because we are friends. No, no, no, no, because once the benefits, I have a team of people that is going to be able to work with us, and they are going to give us superpowers to, let's say, the issue of meeting with the people who are working with us, and they are working with us to make plans to pass everything. And then they are starting to work with the new team and to see them a little bit of, let's say, to work more together with us, because traditionally we come from a background in which they have been separated, let's say, and I want to remove a little bit. If you want. Let's say what the barrier is with this. If you want, if you want to do something like that, do you have any doubts? Yes, I think so. Yes, well, I would like to give you some advice. I don't know how to do it. Okay, well, nothing. Well, thank you very much. Oh, this is an autograph. Sorry. I have one last question. Yeah. Great presentation. But, sorry. I have the same side of the company. Several people have mentioned that selling hijabs first time. Do you have some, I don't know if it's checklist or if you make the wires first time. So, you have some strict process on how you're going to communicate with the websites, right? And there's a lot of... Don't try to be... Okay. Do you think it takes money? It takes money? To prove yourself? No, it can be money. But it takes time. It's not like this. Do you quite agree with me enough? And then, at the end of the project, I'll make a little check-in. What's the behind the scenes of the project? I don't know. Why is that? Because we are not working around the time. We're only working on the project. Then we'll include the second part of the second project. Okay? And now we are only fixing the money because we only have one future. But not taking time. I don't think it takes time. I try to... I don't try to... Then I only do the first part of the screen and the first part of the screen to pay. Then I'm going to... I'm going to...